ANNOUNCER:   CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.  In the CROSSFIRE Saddam Hussein. You've got a message from the president. 
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:   Good riddance. The world is better off without you, Mr. Saddam Hussein. 
ANNOUNCER:   What about the Democrats who say they can do a better job? Has Saddam's capture put them in a hole? Plus, CROSSFIRE and Tucker Carlson, live from Baghdad. Today on CROSSFIRE. Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Robert Novak. 
NOVAK:   Welcome to CROSSFIRE. Tucker Carlson joins us live from Baghdad in a little bit to tell us about his wild ride to the Iraqi capital. But we're starting with the capture of Saddam Hussein. Only admirers of the deposed dictator and supporters of Howard Dean are less than happy. And President Bush calls it a great moment for the Iraqi people. He says they're the ones who should decide Saddam's fate. The White House calls itself a gloat-free zone, but there's no doubt the president feels pretty good. He spent most of an hour taking questions from reporters today and resisting repeated invitations to take a swipe at his Democratic opponents. Politics can come later, he says. 
CARVILLE:   Yes, right. As if political calculations underlie anything this White House does. Saddam Hussein's capture is a great achievement for the U.S. military. But Iraq's still a mess. A couple of car bombs went off today, killing six Iraqi policemen, wounding 18 people. U.S. soldiers are still at risk. There's still no timetable to get them out and international community in. And thanks to record-setting deficit costs by tax cuts for the rich, we're borrowing more money to pay for this endless war. 
NOVAK:   James, I know how much out of touch you are with the regular American people. But you know, what people I talk to hate saying, "This is a great thing, but." "We're glad he is captured, but" Get the buts out. 
CARVILLE:   No, I don't get the buts out. But I'm not -- You may be happy if these kids are stuck over here with no plan to get out. I'm not. I'm not shutting up. Understand? I don't care what you do. No one is going to shut me up from speaking my mind. And but. I am not happy. We have 110,000 kids stuck over there without a plan. They can capture anybody they want to. 
NOVAK:   Those are not kids. Those are not kids; they're fighting men. 
CARVILLE:   They're soldiers. Fighting men and women, whatever you want to call them. 
NOVAK:   Don't call them kids. 
CARVILLE:   I don't like them over there. 
NOVAK:   Don't call them kids. 
CARVILLE:   I don't like it one bit. Not one bit. 
NOVAK:   Go ahead. 
CARVILLE:   All right, the U.S. military found Saddam Hussein hiding in a hole. But does the news of this capture put President Bush's Democratic opponents in a different kind of hole? To debate it, we're joined by House Majority Whip Roy Blunt, a Republican congressman from Missouri, and by Democratic Chief Deputy Whip Joseph Crowley. He's a New York congressman who's endorsed Howard Dean. 
BLUNT:   Thank you. 
NOVAK:   Thank you. 
CARVILLE:   Thank you very much. 
NOVAK:   Good to have you both here. Mr. Crowley, I want to, in my questions to you, I don't want to say anything that is unkind to Democrats. So I'm going to have only Democrats say things that are unkind to Democrats. And let's look to your vice presidential nominee of 2000, Joe Lieberman, what he said yesterday afternoon. 
SEN. JOE LIEBERMAN  , PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:   If Howard Dean had his way, Saddam Hussein would still be in power today, not in prison. And the world would be a much more dangerous place. The American people would have a lot more to fear. 
NOVAK:   And Mr. Crowley, even though you voted for the war and for money to finance the war, isn't Joe Lieberman right? If your man were president, Saddam Hussein would be riding high in Baghdad, wouldn't he? 
CROWLEY:   Let me see. I'm a great admirer of the senator. I think what he said yesterday was a little bit over the top. I think... 
NOVAK:   What was wrong about it? 
CROWLEY:   Well, I think what he said is if Dean were president today, Saddam Hussein would not be in prison. I think that's forecasting something we'll never know, because obviously, Dean is not president today. 
NOVAK:   He said he wouldn't go to war. 
CROWLEY:   The point is, I think, what Dean has said consistently is that he would not go to war in the same way that this president has chosen to go to war. 
NOVAK:   Would he go with heart attacks (ph) or something? 
CROWLEY:   Without a coalition, a real full coalition, with a war that has taken -- you know, quite frankly a great deal of time before they even captured Saddam Hussein, has diverted the attention of the American people away from the real terrorist, Osama bin Laden, who 825 days ago today attacked the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and killed not only my first cousin, but 3,000 other Americans. And he has yet to be brought to justice. We have not focused on the real perpetrator of terrorism against this country and many other countries in this world. 
CARVILLE:   That Saddam Hussein be brought to justice by the Iraqi people, I don't know how anybody could argue with that. And obviously we'll find out more. Tell us, and this is a day that -- tell us how the world is safer from terrorism now that Osama bin Laden is in jail and not a cave. 
BLUNT:   Well certainly James, the people in Iraq are safer than they were before. 
CARVILLE:   Right.  
BLUNT:   This guy was, as I recall, the ace of spades in that deck of infamy. As it turns out we now have a new view of the ace in the hole concept. The ace of spades down there in the hole, hiding from everybody. And the world is safer. I think the Middle East is safer. I think this is -- particularly if we take advantage of this moment, the potential to bring more stability to the Middle East, to use this as an example. I frankly, when I heard that Saddam Hussein had been captured, I'd always assumed he would not be captured alive. And I initially thought, that's very complicating. But I quickly thought, and I'm now absolutely persuaded this is a great opportunity to show to the world the price of tyranny, what happens when a country's terrorized like this one was. And I'm not giving up yet on the other things that I still continue to believe, as maybe Joe did. I certainly did when we voted to empower the president to make these decisions. That Saddam Hussein had great potential to do bad things. He clearly had contacts and gave sanctuary to other terrorists. We do need to be focused on terrorism all over the world. Joe and his family understand what happens when terrorists take over. But they were encouraged, whether they were in Gaza or whether they were in Iraq, they were encouraged by Saddam Hussein. 
NOVAK:   Mr. Crowley, I want to quote another Democrat, Joe Biden, who I think is a very distinguished spokesman on foreign policy. I don't always agree with him, but sometimes I do. And last night on the Paula Zahn show, he said something that I think we ought to listen to. 
BIDEN:   If in fact we win the war in Iraq and win the peace in Iraq and that helps George Bush, so be it. It's in the interest of America that happen. 
NOVAK:   Do you agree with that? 
CROWLEY:   First of all, let me say I think the capture of Saddam Hussein was something that we all applauded. I applauded it. Obviously, Senator Biden applauds it. Just about every member of the House that I know of on body sides of the aisle, the Senate the same thing. There's not a politician in this country that's not applauding today the capture of Saddam Hussein. We all know he's an evil person. We all know the atrocities that he committed... 
NOVAK:   I'm waiting for the "but"? 
CROWLEY:   What's the "but"? The "but" is there's credit where credit is due. Our armed services captured Saddam Hussein. And the best army in the world did it. It's something that was bipartisan supported. 
NOVAK:   Could you address what Joe Biden says? If that helps George Bush, he's glad it happened. Is true or not? 
CROWLEY:   Let me say that the president certainly has a success here today. I think it's a couple of days story. It's a part of a bigger picture and a bigger story. There's still an awful lot of work that needs to be done. Our young men and women are still in harm's way in a land far across the sea. And they're pining to be home today. 
CARVILLE:   Can I see what Senator Biden said again, please? Can we run that again? Is that possible, or -- I want to see what he said again. 
NOVAK:   I'll read it to you. He said if we... 
BIDEN:   If in fact we win the war in Iraq and win the peace in Iraq and that helps George Bush, so be it. It's in the interest of America that happen. 
CARVILLE:   You know what? Bob told me that. He said, if we win the war. I don't know if we will. But win the peace. So if we have, what do you think the chances are we're going to have a peaceful, secure Democratic Iraq next October? 
BLUNT:   I think what we're going to have between now and next October... 
NOVAK:   Go ahead. Don't pay attention to them. They're rude and crude. Go ahead. 
BLUNT:   I think Iraq is... 
CROWLEY:   They're Americans expressing approval. 
BLUNT:   ... certainly going to be more peaceful, secure, more democratic than it was under Saddam. They won't have a constitutional democracy like we have by next October. But what we're going to have between now and next October, James, is a trial, a trial where Saddam and his henchmen have their atrocities laid out before the world and will pay a price for that. 
CROWLEY:   Right. BLUNT; You know, if Saddam Hussein was still in power and he'd caught somebody like Saddam Hussein, don't think that guy would be in jail. That guy would... 
CARVILLE:   I want -- audience, would you quit exercising your opinion as Americans? It offends Bob Novak; he can't stand free speech. You know, now Congressman, this is the resolution authorizing the use of force in Iraq. 
BLUNT:   Right. 
CARVILLE:   To my knowledge, there was not one word in this entire thing about bringing Saddam Hussein to justice, any such thing. And it was mostly focused on weapons of mass destruction. Now that we have Saddam Hussein, how soon will we be able to find a nuclear reactor that Vice President Cheney told us exists in Iraq? 
BLUNT:   I think that's the quote that you're not going to be able to show me. 
NOVAK:   There is a big -- it will take forever. 
CARVILLE:   It offends you for them to speak out. 
NOVAK:   You always offend me. 
BLUNT:   James, there's a big difference in the reconstituted program and a nuclear reactor. You and I both know that. I think they found plenty of plans that indicate that they were moving forward with lots of programs. I wouldn't be at all surprised. I still believe that there were weapons of mass destruction, particularly biological. They could be in a hole just like the one Saddam Hussein was in. They don't have to have water; they don't have to have air; they don't have to breathe. They're going to be harder to find, but we can certainly find them. 
NOVAK:   Gentlemen, we'll have to take a break. And next in "Rapid Fire," I'll ask Congressman Joe Crowley if he's having buyer's remorse about endorsing Howard Dean. And our own Tucker Carlson is in Baghdad. He'll join us live from inside Iraq with the latest on how that country is reacting to the news of the capture.
