CARVILLE:   Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you live from the George Washington University in beautiful Foggy Bottom in downtown Washington, D.C. Rush Limbaugh has had his halo turned up so bright today, it's a good thing he's only on radio. The sanctimonious act comes in response to Senate Majority Leader's complaint that Rush and a whole right wing crowd of radio talk show hosts are too shrill. Daschle said he's tired of getting threats from less than stable listeners who excited by Rush's ranting and raving. Joining us to rant and rave about talk radio are Victoria Jones, a special correspondent to the Talk Radio News Service and Talk Radio Show's Armstrong Williams.    How are you doing? 
JONES:   Fine, thank you. 
CARVILLE:   Armstrong, nice to see you again, sir. 
WILLIAMS:   
CARVILLE:   Like your haircut. 
WILLIAMS:   I like yours. 
CARVILLE:   There you go. We've got something in common. 
WILLIAMS:   Yes, we do. 
NOVAK:   I'd like you to listen to the remarkable statement by the majority leader of the United States Senate that started this whole controversy . Let's listen to Tom Daschle. 
DASCHLE:   But what happens when Rush Limbaugh attacks those of us in public life, is that people are satisfied just to listen. They want to act because they get emotionally invested and so you know, the threats to those of us in public life to up dramatically -- and on our families and on us -- in a way that's very disconcerting. 
NOVAK:   Victoria, have you ever heard anything sillier than that in your entire life? 
JONES:   Oh, I'm sure I have. I'm a regular viewer of the show. And so many, many times... 
CARVILLE:   Pretty good, lady. 
JONES:   ... yes, many times. 
CARVILLE:   Not bad. 
NOVAK:   What do you think of that?: Isn't that ridiculous? 
JONES:   I think what's ridiculous is that he didn't have the common sense not to mention Limbaugh my name. This wouldn't even be a story if he had just said talk show hosts on the right. But he said Limbaugh. He inflamed Limbaugh. He gave Limbaugh a show. He built Limbaugh up. And so it became a Limbaugh-Daschle issue. 
NOVAK:   But how can you take it seriously as a threat... 
JONES:   But he does get death threats. 
NOVAK:   We all get threats. I get threats. 
JONES:   Of course we do. I get threats. 
NOVAK:   I get threats. We all get threats. 
JONES:   But we didn't -- we didn't get an anthrax letter. 
NOVAK:   What kind of nonsense if that? 
JONES:   He got an anthrax letter. We didn't get an anthrax letter. 
NOVAK:   Because of Rush Limbaugh? 
JONES:   I don't think so. 
NOVAK:   Oh, I don't either. 
JONES:   But I think it's interesting that nobody on the right got an anthrax letter. And nobody's dared talk about that. 
CARVILLE:   Mr. Williams does in fact take him seriously, he might be the only person in America that does. Let me put up what Senator John McCain, the great patriot and served his country with distinction, had to say about Mr. Limbaugh himself. 
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN  , ARIZONA:   I view Rush Limbaugh as entertainment. I view him like I view a circus clown... 
CARVILLE:   I mean, isn't that the way everybody kind of views these right wing talk radio shows, a pack of circus clowns out there, you know, telling a bunch of yahoos what they already want to believe? 
WILLIAMS:   That's your version. You know, the... 
CARVILLE:   But Senator McCain's version too. 
NOVAK:   Listen to what he says. 
CARVILLE:   Go ahead. No, respond to what Senator McCain -- I want you to respond to what Senator McCain said. 
WILLIAMS:   You know, I just dismiss it. Obviously Senator McCain has not really listened to talk radio and especially those on the right. The issue is that these guys, we take threats very serious. These talk show hosts are very serious. I think Senator Daschle has to deal with the fact that they lost the mid-term elections. He needs someone to blame. Talk radio hosts, people listen to them. They listen to our product. Liberals like you on the radio, you are no longer on the radio any longer. You had to come up with a good CROSSFIRE. 
CARVILLE:   I've never been on the radio. 
WILLIAMS:   Well, you're on... 
CARVILLE:     tell you that. 
WILLIAMS:   But any how, they... 
CARVILLE:   But if that's like mine, I have to be on TV. Man, people want to see this gorgeous face. 
NOVAK:   Can't you  . 
WILLIAMS:   Why don't you all just face it. The problem is if you cannot beat them, what you want to do is sort of take sort of -- impugn their credibility. Talk radio hosts are very responsible. Mr. Daschle, just very unfortunate that many people agree with our value system, and that's why they listen to us. And that's why they  . 
CARVILLE:   I love Senator Daschle. He is a great man. He is a great American. I think... 
NOVAK:   Ah, come on... 
CARVILLE:   ... I just think he's wrong to take these clowns seriously.  I agree with Senator McCain, who is a Republican. Here am I agreeing with a Republican. 
NOVAK:   Victoria... 
CARVILLE:   It's a circus act. 
NOVAK:   Victoria, I want Rush Limbaugh to speak for himself. He was on INSIDE POLITICS this afternoon on CNN. Let's listen to what he said. 
LIMBAUGH:   Well, politically -- he was not personally, no. I mean, I frankly, I -- there -- this is pleasure for me. I mean, they keep elevating me in to areas that is not good for them, that aren't good for them. But personally, no, this is -- I mean, this is the public arena. These kinds of things happen. I can't believe that he actually chose to make a big deal about this... 
JONES:   That's exactly what I said. I can't believe that he chose to make a big deal about this, although I think the threats are probably very serious. The other thing that I can't believe that has been made a very big deal of is that these people are doing their jobs. People on talk radio, us here, we're all doing our jobs. We're doing what we've been hired to do. We're doing what the corporations want us to do. If we stop doing what they want us to do, we're out of jobs. 
WILLIAMS:   Corporations? 
JONES:   Absolutely, absolutely. 
WILLIAMS:   Some of you may. Listen... 
CARVILLE:   Yes, I work for a corporation. 
WILLIAMS:   Well, not all of us... 
CARVILLE:   For a corporation -- well, who runs your show? 
NOVAK:   It's the Carville corporation. 
CARVILLE:   Well, no it's AOL-Time Warner. They ain't making any money, but I work for them. 
JONES:   Well, the point is the Democrats were stupid... 
NOVAK:   OK, Armstrong. 
WILLIAMS:   Senator Daschle was so irresponsible in what he said.  
JONES:   Oh, please. Irresponsible? 
WILLIAMS:   He was so irresponsible... 
CARVILLE:   Irresponsible? He was -- you don't call him irresponsible. 
JONES:   Call him liberal dog hater if he's irresponsible. That's what Limbaugh has done... 
WILLIAMS:   Has he -- has he figured out that there's a war on terrorism that may -- they contributed to why he received these anthrax letters... 
CARVILLE:   I'm waiting for President Bush to  . 
WILLIAMS:   ... instead of talk show hosts? 
NOVAK:   All right, Victoria, there's an explanation of why Tom Daschle did this, and it's done by one of the best political analysts in America. Let's listen to what -- the reason was. 
LIMBAUGH:   They don't have reasons for people to vote for them. They're just trying to gin up anger and resentment for their opposition. And it's just not working any more. 
NOVAK:   Isn't that the answer, that the liberals and the Democrats, as they showed in this last campaign, have nothing to talk about. So they attack Rush Limbaugh... 
JONES:   No, there are two answers to that. 
NOVAK:   ... and radio talk show hosts? 
JONES:   He's absolutely right, but they don't express it. He's absolutely right that they ran a lousy campaign, and that they deserve to lose. By the way, the best person considered on the left, but actually independent, predicted the Republicans would take the Senate. 
NOVAK:   So did I. 
JONES:   And I said that they should. See, we were right. Because the Democrats ran a lousy campaign. And I think this other story that's going around is this part of a big Democratic strategy -- please. If they had a strategy, they might have won. 
WILLIAMS:   Well, the Democrats would not have known they had run a lousy campaign had it not been for the mid-term elections because I'm sure Mr. Carville was just sitting around... 
JONES:   Well, I was shouting about it. I'm sure you were. 
WILLIAMS:   ... to just talk about George Bush. Went out and put his credibility on the line, and he got it smacked back to him in his face. The fact is the American people are more like us than they are like you, Mr. Carville. 
JONES:   I don't even know  ... 
CARVILLE:   You know, I was amazed and maybe we lost the election. I'm going to  . 
JONES:   I think we  . Is that what this is? 
CARVILLE:   But you know, you guys think every two years somebody wins or looses, you think you just won a Nobel Prize... 
WILLIAMS:   No, this was historic. 
CARVILLE:   If you won... 
WILLIAMS:   It was historic in mid-term elections. 
CARVILLE:   Do you know how far you have to go back to off party -- in a mid-term election? Do you know how far you... 
WILLIAMS:   It was historic... 
CARVILLE:   ... have to go back, Armstrong? 
WILLIAMS:   How far do you have to go back ? 
CARVILLE:   All the way to 1998. 
WILLIAMS:   No... 
CARVILLE:   You have to go all the way to '98 to find something this historic. 
WILLIAMS:   Right, oh really... 
CARVILLE:   I mean, good God, man you won an election. Wow, let's all pass out here. 
JONES:   To be saying   that Americans are more like Armstrong than you than like James and me, this absolutely ridiculous. 
WILLIAMS:   Oh, is it? 
JONES:   Yes it is. Because this is where the debate has gone. What has happened in the last year is that it has become treasonous to criticize the government, and treasonous to criticize the policy... 
WILLIAMS:   Oh, come on now. Oh, no... 
CARVILLE:   You're right... 
JONES:   ... in  . 
CARVILLE:   ... you know what, you're  . They're not winning the war on terrorism. That's not treason; that's a fact. 
JONES:   And keeping the freedoms of our Constitution... 
CARVILLE:   They're trying in this election they did a good job of deflecting that. 
JONES:   ... is embodied... 
NOVAK:   I think we're out of time. 
JONES:   Oh, no. 
NOVAK:   Thank you very much, Victoria Jones. Thank you, Armstrong Williams. 
CARVILLE:   Nice to have you. 
NOVAK:   One of our listeners has a "Fireback", a suggestion about who should host a Democratic radio talk show. We aren't sure this guy would give us his TV job. Next, two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions, a sesame seed bun and a big fat lawsuit.
