CARVILLE:   Former General Wesley Clark went through political boot camp last night at Pace University. He appeared in his first debate as a presidential hopeful, squaring off against nine other Democrats. So, was Clark's performance worthy of a salute or do his political advisers need to give more basic training? Right now, we want to put last night's debate to the CROSSFIRE and other political issues. We're joined by Congressman Mike Pence, Republican of Indiana, and Democrat Eleanor Holmes Norton, Washington, D.C.'s congressional delegate. 
CARLSON:   Ms. Norton, thanks for joining us. General Wesley Clark now in the race. It was uncovered the day before yesterday that, on May 11, 2001 -- this was after the Florida recount, after the Bush administration was recognizable to Democrats as something they really didn't like -- gave a speech in Arkansas to a Republican group in which he came out Ronald Reagan, attacked old Europe, and then said this -- and I'm quoting now. This is about president George W. Bush. Quote: "President George Bush had the courage and the vision. And we will always be grateful to President George Bush for that tremendous leadership and statesmanship." He goes on, but I don't want to torture you. Can he now claim to be a partisan Democrat with any credibility, truly? 
NORTON:   Of course. In fact, probably what we need is a Democrat who also brings some Republican credentials to the table, who will then appeal to Republicans, as well as Democrats and independents. All we're going to look to today is, what is his bottom line on our issues? And it looks like his bottom line is very much that of a Democrat. 
CARVILLE:   Congressman, let me show you what -- something that General Clark had to say yesterday that I think rang tremendously true. And I suspect it's something we'll be hearing a lot of. Can we tee that up, please? Well, I guess we can't. 
CLARK:   I've got a better job plan in eight days than George Bush had in three years in this country. 
CARVILLE:   Obviously, this administration's economic policies is not quite in the shambles that its Iraq policy is, but it's in shambles. Can you name me something they're succeeding that? 
PENCE:   Well, I think, James, there's no question that the president is succeeding at leading America with courage and with character and with vision. He has advanced the cause of freedom for the people of Iraq. He has confronted terrorism bravely after September 11. And the combination of national emergency and recession and war has had its toll at home. But this president is doggedly and determinedly fighting to turn this economy around, James. 
CARLSON:   Now, Ms. Norton... 
CARVILLE:   I wish he was. 
CARLSON:   General Clark is at the top of a number of different polls in the Democratic field. But a lot of Democrats I talk to don't take that too seriously. They really believe that Howard Dean, former governor of Vermont, is the front-runner right now. I want to read you a quote from former Senator George McGovern of South Dakota. He said this to "U.S. News" the other day. And I'm quoting now: "His, Dean's, campaign reminds me a lot of what we did 30 years ago."    And, of course, what we did 30 years ago, in McGovern's case, is lose really badly. 
NORTON:   Not at all. What Howard Dean has done is bring out what you -- what the pundits say is the Democratic base. That's not the Democratic base. That's a whole lot of new voters. Democrats tell me they go into Democratic strongholds and they say, who are these folks? These Howard Dean folks are new folks in the Democratic Party. They're young folks. They're folks who were so turned off by politics that they needed someone to draw them in. I think he's done our party a lot of good, whether or not he becomes a candidate. 
CARVILLE:   Congressman, Congressman Rahm Emanuel has introduced the American parity bill, which says that everything -- you spend something in Iraq, you should spend it in America. For instance, President Bush proposes spending $6 billion for an electrical grid in Iraq. And he said we Should spend that much for an electrical grid in America that -- well, our lights went out between Chicago and New York. Will you be signing on to Congressman Emanuel's outstanding, visionary, brilliant piece of legislation? 
PENCE:   Well, I'm not sure. I haven't looked at it yet. Rahm is a friend. And I've enjoyed working with him on a number of issues. But, look... 
CARVILLE:   Does that make sense to you, that if we spend the money on water purification in Iraq, we should spend money on water purification in America? If we're spending $800 million on the hospitals... 
PENCE:   Well, James, I think we should spend the resources where the American taxpayers need us to spend those resources, both at home, as we've gone through this massive appropriations process. But overseas, I think, frankly, the principal underpinning of Rahm's bill is a good one. And I'm someone who is joining other Republicans and Democrats in the House and Senate to say that that $20 billion that's part of that supplemental package that we're learning this week will even be building neighborhoods, paying for garbage trucks and basic infrastructure, I think that ought to be a loan, James. And I think that would reflect the priorities of the American people. Have Iraq be a partner with us in their own future success and security. 
CARVILLE:   So Rahm can call you and you may hook up with him on this piece of legislation? 
PENCE:   He can call me, James.    And we'll have a great chat. 
CARLSON:   Now, Ms. Norton, just political analysis question for you. Howard Dean is, in some ways, running against the leadership of his own party. His famous line, "I'm from the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party." 
NORTON:   He's running as an outsider. 
CARLSON:   Exactly. That's exactly right. So, don't you think it helps him when people like Congressman Gephardt and Senator Kerry single him out, as they did in the debate yesterday, for abuse? Doesn't it help his contention that he's running against Washington? Doesn't it strengthen him? 
NORTON:   Oh, in one sense, it does. Look, it dubs him the front-runner. The more they attack him, the more they crown him the front-runner. Now, the problem is, they may bring him down. And that's what they're trying to do. No one anticipated, for example, that Clark would get into the race. That has rescrambled the race altogether. And nobody knows where Dean is now. 
CARLSON:   Do you take Clark seriously? 
NORTON:   I take Clark very seriously. And I think every Democrat will. He strengthens us on the only issue where we're weak and one where we need to be strengthened.    I haven't endorsed anybody yet, but I'm glad I didn't, because the more come in the race for me to look over, the better chance we have of defeating George Bush. And that's the bottom line. And that's the only bottom line for me. 
CARVILLE:   The -- the president's request assumes $40 billion in aid from foreign companies -- countries. Do you think that's realistic to expect and assume that other nations can give $40 billion to our effort in Iraq? 
PENCE:   Well, I do know that part of the reconstruction plan includes -- I've heard the number $10 billion in specific direct aid, and then -- and then leverage funds financed from support from the international community. But I do think, after the president's address to the U.N. this week, that we're letting our yes be yes and our no be no. We're inviting the world to come along with us to advance freedom and stability in Iraq. And I believe this president will continue, James, to be a success on the world stage. 
CARLSON:   OK, we're just going to take a quick break. Ms. Norton, Mr. Pence, we'll be right back. Up next, in "Rapid Fire," we target the issues with quick questions with and even quicker, we hope, responses. And just ahead, Judy Woodruff has the latest on what might come out of President Bush's meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin this weekend at Camp David. We'll be right back.
