CARVILLE:   Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you live from the George Washington University in beautiful Foggy Bottom in downtown Washington D.C. We've all been told you are what you eat. And with a steady diet of fast food and junk food, many Americans are fat. So what do we do now? Well, New York Governor George Pataki has just signed an obesity prevention act, joining 15 other states in putting government to work to getting the fat out. In the CROSSFIRE now is Michael Jacobson, executive director of the Center for Science in the Public Interest, and John Doyle, of the Center for Consumer Freedom. 
CARLSON:   All right. Mr. Jacobson, thanks for joining us. 
JACOBSON:   My pleasure. 
CARLSON:   Now you well, as well as I do -- and I think you'll be honest enough to admit -- that this new law in New York is really just a setup to the Twinkie tax, which is going to be an easy way for state governments to make up for their deficits on the backs of the poor because, as you also know, it's poor people who eat Twinkies. The rest of the nation can afford expensive organic food. This is just another way to take money from the poor, isn't it? 
JACOBSON:   You're such a wonderful prognosticator. 
CARLSON:   But it's true. This is exactly what happened with tobacco. 
JACOBSON:   This new law in New York does something very modest and something that every state ought to do: try to understand the magnitude of the obesity problem and figure out things that the government, the Health Department can do to make it easier for people to maintain a healthy weight. 
CARLSON:   Well, taxing junk food is obviously the easiest way. And, again, I am in the prognosticating business but, to some extent, so are you. And I want you to admit that we will see a day soon that there will be a tax on food that supposedly makes you fat. Won't there be? 
JACOBSON:   Well, horrors of horrors. Did you know that a dozen states already have some junk food taxes: California, New York, Chicago has a tax. They raise a billion dollars. The unfortunate thing is that they -- the unfortunate thing is that that money doesn't support health campaigns to promote better nutrition. 
CARVILLE:   Surely you don't have a problem with studying the causes of obesity, do you? I mean the thing in New York, don't you agree... 
DOYLE:   If this were studied in a vacuum, I'd have no problem at all. But it's being studied in a universe where these guys are saying that 300,000 people are dying each year from obesity. The "New England Journal of Medicine" says, bull, not true. These people say that they have a study from Harvard that says soda is linked to obesity. Center for Disease Control says, nope, the facts don't support the conclusion. So in this environment, with a hysteria that is surrounding this obesity epidemic, no, I don't trust this study. And it's going to come out  . 
CARVILLE:   So you don't think -- in other words, you don't think the   effect? 
DOYLE:   You eat enough of them, sure they will, absolutely. And if you -- as we've had this conversation many times -- eat just carrots, you're going to die of malnutrition. It's the choices you make about the foods you eat. 
CARVILLE:   But I'm saying -- but certainly you can't be against studying the causes of obesity. There's a lot of fat people out there. 
DOYLE:   This study is the first step of the camel's (ph) nose (ph). Call it what you will. In this environment, in (ph) hysteria... 
CARVILLE:   But you know   study in 1963 by the federal government that says smoking was bad. At that time, 44 percent of adult Americans smoked. Today it's about 23 percent. That is an amazing achievement. 
DOYLE:   That being taken along, though,   we're making a link between food and tobacco, and that's what this is all about. Food is not tobacco. Food is not addictive, and not one of those products there is going to hurt you... 
CARLSON:   Now, Mr. Jacobson, here's the problem with the whole movement, the term "junk food" is that not all so-called junk food is junk food and not all so-called organic food is good for you. Here's my example. This is a tomato from Safeway. It's filled with chemicals, looks pretty tasty. This is a so-called organic tomato. And if you look carefully, you can see the little gnaw marks from the caterpillars. You can see the dirt they left from their fingernails, maybe a little fecal matter from them on this. I wouldn't put this in my mouth. It's organic, but it's not good for you. 
JACOBSON:   It's just amusing to hear Dr. Doyle, who seems to know so much about the science and you have no scientific background. Why are you not concerned about the billion dollars a year that McDonald's spends brainwashing young children to buy their junk? You seem to be concerned only about the government, the people spending money. 
DOYLE:   Michael, I have two young children. I have a teenager that grew up in this environment. They're perfectly healthy, because when it comes to McDonald's or Wendy's or Burger King, I make the choices. They're healthy because I decide when they're going to eat, what they're going to eat. I have the responsibility. 
CARVILLE:   But then -- look, I'm a   and moon pie man. OK? That's what I had when I grew up. But what is wrong with saying that there's a law saying that you've got to wrap this in something that says that if you eat all of this, you're going to get fat? What's wrong with that? 
DOYLE:   James, by the time you've bought it to see the label you've already paid for it. 
CARVILLE:   No, you put a big wrapper on it that if you eat too much it's liable to make you fat. 
DOYLE:   James, it's on the wall. It's in every McDonald's. 
CARVILLE:   Well put a big wrapper around it. 
DOYLE:   And, by the way, if you eat that, you're not going to get fat. 
CARVILLE:   I promise that if you eat all of this you're going to get fat.    How many calories in an RC (ph) and a moon pie? 
CARLSON:   Mr. Jacobson, you just, in a sort of snotty way, dismissed Mr. Doyle because he's not a research scientist, implying that somehow science has a monopoly on the truth when it comes to what makes you fat. But you know that's not true. You know that the USDA itself can't decide whether carbohydrates or fat makes you fat. The debate is ongoing. We don't know the answer. 
JACOBSON:   What the audience should know, this is not a medical researcher. All public health officials... 
CARLSON:   Medical researchers don't know the answer. What's the point? 
JACOBSON:   He is paid by the restaurant industry. His organization... 
DOYLE:   ... run the newsletters that they sell based on fear. 
JACOBSON:   Your organization is paid by the restaurant industry, and you call yourself Center for Consumer Freedom. 
CARVILLE:   I got a question here. I'm not a scientist. What's going to make you fatter, you eat this or you eat this?  Let me ask you something. If you eat this, what's going to make you fatter? You eat this tomato or you eat this big old thing of french fries? 
DOYLE:   James, I burn 2,000 calories a day just respirating (ph). That is not going to make you fat. If I eat that for every meal, I will gain weight. If I eat this for every meal, I will die. It's the choices you make about food.    That's exactly the point. It's the choices you make. The choices you make about... 
CARVILLE:   I just asked you, what's your answer? What's going to make you fatter, this or this? 
DOYLE:   There are more vitamins.... 
CARVILLE:   This is going to make you fat if you eat this. 
DOYLE:   That's right. And there's more vitamins in that tomato and there's more fat in this french fry. But you're talking about 300,000 products on the... 
CARLSON:   James, we know you're not a scientist, we've established that. 
CARVILLE:   OK. 
CARLSON:   Mr. Jacobson, don't you think... 
CARVILLE:   What's wrong with the government... 
CARLSON:   Underneath the propaganda and fear that the food neurotics sell  , there is the implication that people shouldn't be allowed to eat this kind of crummy food that's bad for you if they want to. 
JACOBSON:   Only right-wing phony straw men. 
CARLSON:   I beg your pardon. 
JACOBSON:   This has nothing to do with reality. 
CARVILLE:   You know what? You're a very perceptive guy. 
CARLSON:   Now wait a second. You just said this stuff should be taxed. 
JACOBSON:   This stuff is already taxed. 
CARLSON:   Well you endorsed it. 
JACOBSON:   It's already taxed. Every state taxes McDonald's french fries. 
DOYLE:   And you and   taxing it out of...    You know that's total malarkey. And your specialty is putting quotes in people's mouths. 
CARVILLE:   ... putting french fries in kids' mouths. 
JACOBSON:   But what we're talking about is the need -- look, the bottom line is that hundreds of thousands of people are dying prematurely. Kids are getting... 
CARLSON:   You're scaring me. 
JACOBSON:   Kids are getting diabetes, becoming overworked, hypertension. This is a major problem. Our society... 
CARLSON:   Unfortunately... 
CARVILLE:   Let's  . Why would anybody eat these products? 
JACOBSON:   Well, let's have a law. Let's tax  . 
CARLSON:   We are out of time, as terrifying as this issue is. But thank you very much, Mr. Jacobson. Thank you, Mr. Doyle. 
DOYLE:   Always a pleasure. 
CARLSON:   One of our viewers has a suggestion for what to do with the money we're spending to figure out why fat people are fat. We'll get to that in a minute. But, next, the bold, the beautiful, the Emmy winners and what the rest of us want to watch. Mo Rocca joins us to talk television when CROSSFIRE returns. We'll be right back.
