ANNOUNCER:   CROSSFIRE. On the left: James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right: Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE tonight: Is the U.S. headed for war in Iraq? 
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE:   And as we all know, the president has not made no such decision. 
ANNOUNCER:   But is such a decision just a matter of time? 
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:   If the United Nations will not deal with Saddam Hussein, the United States and our friends will. 
ANNOUNCER:   And look who's finally talking Iraq. 
GORE:   If you're going after Jesse James you ought to organize the posse first. 
ANNOUNCER:   Tired of chewing the fat? If snack food companies won't offer you something better, how about a serving of government? 
DORIS ROBERTS, ACTRESS, "EVERYBODY LOVES RAYMOND":   This is what happens when you're young and sexy. 
ANNOUNCER:   And the winners were plentiful, but is TV still going down the tubes? We'll ask Emmy loser Mo Rocca. Ahead on CROSSFIRE. From The George Washington University: James Carville and Tucker Carlson.  
CARVILLE:   Welcome to CROSSFIRE. We got plenty to chew on tonight. Al Gore is joining the Iraq debate and New York has joined the list of states trying to make you lose weight. But before you go on a diet, join us for the best political briefing in television: our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert." Al Gore, the man who actually won the race for president, says a war in Iraq may seriously damage the war on terrorism. In a speech this afternoon the former vice president said the U.S. should focus its attention on catching and punishing the people who planned the September 11 attacks. In Gore's words, "Great nations do not jump from one unfinished task to another." Gore says instead of going after Iraq the U.S. should hunt down al Qaeda's leaders and stabilize Afghanistan's new government. He all called on President Bush to dispel people's doubts that he's banging the war drums now just to gain a political advantage before the election. Actually, Tucker, I thought the vice president made some dog gone good points today. I criticized some of the speeches he's given, but I thought this was a rational, intelligent, well thought out... 
CARLSON:   I actually haven't heard criticize his speeches. 
CARVILLE:   I criticized him when he attacked consultants. 
CARLSON:   James, well he's back on the home team. He never addressed the key question, which was, is Iraq a real threat to the United States and what you can do about it. 
CARVILLE:   They've been a threat for 15 years. 
CARLSON:   Well you wouldn't know that from listening to Al Gore. A little more than a week after the season premiere of "The Sopranos," the state of New Jersey is back in the news. President Bush traveled to the garden state today to raise money for its next U.S. senator, Douglas Forrester. Majority Leader Tom Daschle, meanwhile, also went to New Jersey in his desperate bid to save the career of the state's current senator, the   challenged Robert Torricelli. "This is the fight that will determine the future of the country," Daschle explained, apparently with a straight face. Other Democrats have given up hope. Quote: "It's come as a surprise to many of us that this race is as close as it is, Senator Chuck Schumer told "The New York Times" today. Schumer added that, New Jersey voters are so dumb he did not expect them to notice when their senior senator became a national embarrassment. 
CARVILLE:   Actually, Schumer never said that, but you're used to saying... 
CARLSON:   But that's the implication. 
CARVILLE:   That is not the implication. 
CARLSON:   The guy apparently brags about friends in the Mafia. 
CARVILLE:   Look, President Bush went for Bill Simon, who overcharged his own charity for investment advice. 
CARLSON:   Oh, you're blaming New Jersey now too? Defend Torricelli. I dare you, James. Defend him. 
CARVILLE:   I'll tell you, he's been a damn effective senator. This man made a mistake. He said he made a mistake. But he's been one incredible senator. Colorado Republic Congressman Tom Tancredo wants Jesus Apodaca kicked out of the country. The 18-year-old boy is not a terrorist. He ought to be an American success story. He was an honor student at a Denver high school and was admitted to the University of Colorado. But since the boy is an illegal immigrant, he's charged with out-of-state tuition and can't afford to go. Instead of trying to help, Congressman Tancredo   his entire family be deported. And, by the way, this came out that Tancredo recently renovated his house using illegal Mexican immigrants. The Republicans wonder why they can't get more of the Hispanic vote. The only vote they can get -- I'll tell you what vote they can get, they can get the damn hypocrisy vote, because if Dante -- if the hottest place in hell is reserved for hypocrites, put a thermometer on this guy, baby. I want to see how high it can go. 
CARLSON:   You're going to tell me really quick, what country is he even deported to? What kind of name is Apodaca? 
CARVILLE:   It was what they had on the phonetical (ph) thing. 
CARLSON:   He's won the election by slandering the United States. German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder is ready to forgive and forget. The Bush administration thankfully is not. Under White House orders, the State Department today issued a statement   that the German people have spoken, but neither congratulating Schroeder or even mentioning him by name. Schroeder won by playing on anti-U.S. and anti-Iraq war sentiments. The low point, and there were many, came when Germany's justice minister compared President Bush's political tactics to those used by Adolph Hitler. Schroeder pretended to apologize, but to no effect. National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice says those comments have poisoned U.S.-German relations. If I could just say, the Berlin airlift. Is there no gratitude, James? 
CARVILLE:   Let me tell you something. The Koreans hate us. Now the Germans -- you know that's one against Germany. 
CARLSON:   So it's our fault? 
CARVILLE:   You know what? You know what? If we had a foreign policy that tried to get people to like us, as opposed on irritating everybody in the damn world, it would be a lot better thing. It used to be when we had a foreign policy... 
CARLSON:   You're blaming the United States for this guy... 
CARVILLE:   I'm not  . Don't say I said that. I never said that. No I didn't. 
CARLSON:   You're blaming it on foreign policy. That's what you just said. 
CARVILLE:   I'm saying that our foreign policy makes it where people don't like us.    You're damn right. It's our fault that we act arrogant. 
CARLSON:   That's over the top. 
CARVILLE:   And we don't -- the more powerful you are... 
CARLSON:   So we deserve to be called "Hitler?" 
CARVILLE:   No, we don't deserve to be called "Hitler." Don't say that. Don't say I said that, because I didn't. And don't say... 
CARLSON:   I think they're arrogant. 
CARVILLE:   Florida Governor Jeb Bush has a problem.    It isn't that he failed to deliver an election   that Florida schools basically stink. It isn't that his child welfare department loses children, or even that his choice to run agencies that are anti-woman, anti-gay and  .  Jeb Bush's real problem is now he has a real opponent. The polls show Democrat Bill McBride is within striking distance, will help McBride fund-raising, which will make the race even closer, which means that next year Florida may have a real governor. 
CARLSON:   I thought you were pro spanking. I think  . 
CARVILLE:   This is a man that ran a commercial taking credit for a traffic light after four years in office. This has to be... 
CARLSON:   James, you fully well know... 
CARVILLE:   This has to be the most ineffective, bumbling, idiotic governor in... 
CARLSON:   The election was screwed up by a Democrat who has since resigned from that position, as you know. Read the paper, man. 
CARVILLE:   The governor said that he'd fix it. He couldn't fix a flat. 
CARLSON:   He's an elected Democrat. An extensive investigation by "The New York Daily News" has reached a stunning conclusion that people don't like paying high taxes. Earlier this year, lawmakers in New York decided that only rich people should be allowed to smoke cigarettes. The tobacco taxes were raised accordingly. A pack of Marlboros now cost close to $8 in New York City. A carton runs more than $70. Many smokers, of course, have no intention of paying, so they quit. Many others have taken to buying bootleg cigarettes. Organized crime and street gangs are making millions in illegal profits. According to an ATF spokesman, so are terrorist groups. New York, meanwhile, is using hundreds of millions in tax revenue. Faced with a $5 billion budget deficit, officials are now looking for ways to convince New Yorkers to smoke as many state- sponsored cigarettes as possible.    Which is true. They are now in the cigarette business, which is what happens when you raise taxes like that. It's ridiculous. 
CARVILLE:   That's right. So we want more people to smoke. 
CARLSON:   No, we don't. But New York does  . 
CARVILLE:   Al Gore says in the past year the Bush administration has squandered all of the worldwide sympathy and goodwill the U.S. had after September 11, replacing it with anxiety over what we're going to do in Iraq. Gore compared the way that the president needed a year ago to squander a $7 trillion budget surplus. Have the Democrats finally found someone willing to stand up to the president, or is the country still headed for war? In the CROSSFIRE, Ohio Democratic Congressman Dennis Kucinich, and Indiana Republican Congressman Mike Pence. 
CARLSON:   Congressman Kucinich, welcome. I realize you all vote on a lot of things in the House of Representatives. You probably don't remember all of them, so I just wanted to remember one that you did vote for. On October 5, 1998, almost exactly four years, called (ph) the Iraq Liberation Act. Here's the key line from it: "It should be the policy of the U.S. to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime." So you voted to kill Saddam Hussein four years ago or move him from power. 
KUCINICH:   But wait, there's a difference. 
CARLSON:   No, but it doesn't specify. 
KUCINICH:   Is there a difference? This is an important point. 
CARLSON:   It doesn't say  , it says remove him. So now you're against it? 
KUCINICH:   Now wait, there's a difference. I'm against an assassination policy. I'm against a policy of regime change by force. That resolution in 1998 wasn't about that. 
CARLSON:   It doesn't say peaceful regime change. 
KUCINICH:   Well, look, it certainly did not intend and, it shouldn't be interpreted as, authorizing either assassination or removal by force or war. So we're in a different environment now. 
CARLSON:   Then what I (ph) am trying to say, I don't remember -- there's no line in there that says this should not be... 
KUCINICH:   And I'm glad you started out this program stating that I'm not a friend of Saddam Hussein's.  
CARLSON:   Well I want you to explain that, though. Four years ago you voted for this. It says nothing about peaceful transition. It says you don't think the guy ought to be president. 
KUCINICH:   That's right. I did vote for that, but it was... 
CARLSON:   Why have you changed your view? 
KUCINICH:   I haven't changed my view. Because what's being told to the United States' people right now is that we have to forcibly remove Saddam Hussein, take preemptive, unilateral action and remove him by any means necessary, including   to kill him. To me that's a violation of international law. That's not the United States I know and love. That's not what my country stands for. My country stands for participation with the world community to solve matters of global security. 
CARVILLE:   Congressman, you're starting out with a completely justified war against al Qaeda. We expanded that war on terrorism in general that we actually never fought. And now we haven't fought the war on terrorism, we expanded it to apparently have a war on Iraq. What is the connection between Iraq and the war on al Qaeda? 
PENCE:   Well, James, I think that's a great question, and it's an answer I think the president of the United States is going to be answering for the American people. Members of his cabinet are very busy answering that question on Capitol Hill over the past weeks, and they will in the coming weeks. But it is amazing to me, James, to be quite honest with you, that Vice President Al Gore apparently still doesn't understand the connection between Iraq and worldwide terrorism. 
CARVILLE:   But how can he understand? He might be... 
PENCE:   It shouldn't surprise you, because the Clinton administration never understood that connection. 
CARVILLE:   What is the connection? Now here's the question: What is the connection between Iraq and al Qaeda? 
PENCE:   The connection between Iraq and al Qaeda is, first and foremost, that the nation of Iraq, as the president's resolution that he sent to the Hill suggests as the original resolution that brokered the peace after the Persian Gulf War, said that Iraq has been harboring and encouraging and nurturing international organizations and worldwide terror since the cessation of hostilities in 1991. James, Abu Nadal was just assassinated at his home where he's lived for 10 years. Where? In Baghdad.  Abu Nadal heading up -- other than Osama bin Laden -- the most famous and notorious terrorist organization in the world. 
CARVILLE:   I just asked what's the thing -- we're told about a meeting in Prague. I'm waiting for the president -- I'm all for the war in al Qaeda. I'm just waiting -- do you know of a connection, Congressman? 
KUCINICH:   I'm the ranking Democrat on the National Security Oversights Subcommittee, and I can tell you that the CIA has not presented any evidence that links Iraq with 9/11, with al Qaeda, with the anthrax attacks, with usable weapons of mass destruction, the ability to deliver those weapons and the intention to do so. 
PENCE:   I'm not going to question your veracity, but to suggest, to say that perhaps they haven't offered proof, which is evidence that rises to the level of being a fact is one thing. But there's overwhelming evidence, Dennis to, suggest -- circumstantial and otherwise -- to suggest a connection between Iraq and al Qaeda. 
KUCINICH:   If we're going to wage war on Iraq, we better have proof. 
CARLSON:   And we ought to have a debate. And that's one of the reasons that I found the former Vice President Al Gore's speech today so dispiriting, not to say pathetic. I want to play you what I think is the nugget of this. This is the only time when he directly addressed the threat that Iraq poses to the world. Here's what he said. 
GORE:   All Americans should acknowledge that Iraq does indeed pose a serious threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf region. And we should be about the business of organizing an international coalition to eliminate his access to weapons of mass destruction. 
CARLSON:   We should be about the business of organizing an international coalition. Well there has been an international coalition, as you know, pursuing that exact same aim for 11 years now. The U.N. first passed a resolution demanding he get rid of weapons of mass destruction in 1991, as your forward read. What's happening? Nothing. This has led nowhere. Why should we believe it's going to lead somewhere now? 
KUCINICH:   Well, first of all, according to the information that the CIA itself has presented, we don't know that Iraq has usable weapons of mass destruction. So therefore, why should we begin to wage a war because somebody says they do? Nobody's proved it.  
CARLSON:   Is that -- well I thought that Saddam's own bomb maker defected in 1996 and provided the U.S. government with reams of information. 
KUCINICH:   Defectors can tell you stories about all kinds of things. But the truth is, I got to go on our own intelligence. The Central Intelligence Agency is what I have to rely on to give me information. And the information that they've presented has not been in any way suggestive that Iraq has the ability to strike at the United States or has these weapons of mass destruction. But let me say this. Should we have inspections? Absolutely. We should be inspecting Iraq. We should have unfettered access to that nation. And we should find out if they do. And if they don't, let's bring them into the world community and stop this war. We don't need a war to find out if they have weapons of mass destruction. 
CARVILLE:   Congressman, I'll give you a chance to respond as soon as we come back from break. 
CARLSON:   In a minute, we'll ask our guests about the Democrats ridiculous allegations that the Iraq debate is timed to coincide with the election. Later, can John McCain use reality TV as his channel to the White House? And our quote of the day comes from a new mayor who already knows how to dress for encounters with the press. We'll be right back.
