BUSH:   My opponent said he would debate me anyplace, anytime, anywhere. 
NOVAK:   Is Al Gore going back on his word? 
GORE:   And it's not fair to the American people to try to sharply reduce the number of people who can see the debates. 
NOVAK:   Is Bush too scared to debate Gore? Tonight, the great debate debate. Live from Washington, CROSSFIRE. On the left, Bill Press; on the right, Robert Novak. In the crossfire, Democratic Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois, a Gore supporter, and Republican Senator Tim Hutchinson from Arkansas, a Bush supporter.    Good evening. Welcome to CROSSFIRE. Now, didn't George W. Bush and Al Gore agree to debate each other three times? Well, sort of. But things are not that simple in big- time politics. Vice President Gore agreed to just about every debate invitation, including three proposed by the Presidential Debate Commission. Governor Bush agreed to only one of the commission's debates but said he would appear on two other debates already accepted by Gore: NBC's "Meet the Press" and CNN's "LARRY KING LIVE." But ABC and CBS say they won't run those debates from other networks. Anyway, Gore rejects them unless Bush takes all three commission debates. So they've agreed on nothing. Meanwhile, the two candidates are debating at long-range, with very unsurprising results. In Allentown, Pennsylvania, Bush unveiled his prescription drug plan, calling it much better than Gore's. In Columbus, Ohio, Gore said Bush's wasn't any good. Even if you haven't really missed them, members of Congress are back in session this week after their long summer recess. We can ask the senators here whether disputes will close down the government and whether that's really such a bad idea -- Bill. 
PRESS:   Well, we've missed you senator, I want you to know. And Senator Hutchinson, it's good to have you back on CROSSFIRE... 
HUTCHINSON:   Thanks, Bill. 
PRESS:   ... even though you are such a Major League debater. And... 
HUTCHINSON:   Too long a pause there. 
PRESS:   Speaking of debates, now about 12 years ago, people said, look, these candidates are spending too much time debating over the debates, so let's take it out of their hands, get politics out of it, get the candidates out of it. We're going to set up a commission that will set down a schedule for the debates. And it's been good enough for every presidential candidate since 1988, including father George Bush twice. Why isn't it good enough for little George W.? 
HUTCHINSON:   Well, Bill, in fact, it was not good enough for Clinton and Gore in '96, when the Presidential Debate Commission proposed three; Clinton-Gore insisted upon only two and accepted only two. And when Senator Dole suggested that one of them be moved so it would not conflict with the National League series, to minimize the crowd, they would not accept a separate date. And so I think it's very clear that in fact they have not always accepted the bipartisan commission, and it's rather hypocritical, I think, for Gore now to say it's this way or no way. In fact, he said anytime, anywhere. The ball is in his court. Bush has said clearly I'll go on "LARRY KING LIVE." He's proposed three national televised debates. So let's get on with the debates. 
PRESS:   Well, look, we love "LARRY KING LIVE," Tim -- senator. 
HUTCHINSON:   I  ... 
PRESS:   Yes, but let's be honest here. "LARRY KING LIVE" is seen and covered by one network. It happens to be ours. The other networks won't carry it. "LARRY KING LIVE" is 60 minutes, not 90 minutes. And you know, even on an average day, right, average show, "LARRY KING" gets about a million viewers. "Meet the Press" with Tim Russert gets 3.6 million. The famous "LARRY KING" debate when Al Gore got in there with Ross Perot even, the most watched show probably of "LARRY KING" ever, 11 million viewers compared to 46 million that watched that first debate between Bill Clinton and Bob Dole in 1996. So isn't it clear that George Bush just wants -- the fewer number of people watching the better? 
HUTCHINSON:   No, no. I've seen the very words Bill Gore said -- I mean, Al Gore said twice to Larry King: I will debate, and can't you get Bush to accept? Bush has said let's do it, so it is clearly Al Gore that is retracting. He's reneging on a commitment he made. "Anytime, anywhere" he said. Now, that's pretty broad, anytime, anywhere. But we have it on the table now. Let's go on "LARRY KING LIVE." Let's go on "Meet the Press." Let's do the presidential commission debate. And the American people are going to have wide access to it, I think. 
PRESS:   No, but you're avoiding the issue. Of course, Al Gore will go on "LARRY KING." He's done it dozens and dozens of times. He'll do it again. But the foundation has to be the three presidential debates, which all the networks carry, and so you can get the largest possible audience. Why is George Bush afraid of having the most number of Americans possible? 
HUTCHINSON:   Well, why did Gore not want what was recommended by the commission in '96? 
PRESS:   He does, in addition to. 
HUTCHINSON:   In '96, he did not. 
PRESS:   We're talking this year, Senator. 
HUTCHINSON:   Oh, oh. 
NOVAK:   Senator Durbin, Mr. Durbin, I know you have great respect for Tim Hutchinson. 
DURBIN:   Oh, greatest. 
NOVAK:   But you don't want to take his word for what he just said, I'm sure you don't. So let's take a look at what Al Gore actually said earlier this year on "Meet the Press" and on "LARRY KING LIVE." 
GORE:   Debate twice a week with a different issue each time. Would you be willing to host one of the first debates, Larry? 
LARRY KING, HOST:   Absolutely. Of course.  
GORE:   Well, I accept. I accept.    I've accepted for two or three months your invitation to debate on this program. 
NOVAK:   That was on "Meet the Press." Now, if I -- I don't understand English, we just saw the vice president accepting those debates. It wasn't I will accept after those three other debates. It was a flat acceptance, wasn't it? 
DURBIN:   You understand English. You're a graduate of the University of Illinois. So there's no doubt about your competence. But I think Al Gore started this with the premise that we'd have the three national debates, the three 90-minute debates, the big time, the major leagues, and then add on. And he said, frankly, I'll do as many as twice a week. 
NOVAK:   Gee, I didn't hear that caveat. 
DURBIN:   Well, you know, certainly, I think it wasn't expressly said, but it was understood. And I think, you know, the bottom line here, Bob, has already been made by Bill, and that is that basically George W. Bush does not want that much exposure on television debating Al Gore. He obviously is not comfortable with some of the things he said in his campaign or his ability to debate the issues with Al Gore, and that's understandable. I mean, if you look at what he said today about prescription drugs... 
NOVAK:   We're going to talk about that later. 
DURBIN:   ... he's going to have a tough time with that. 
NOVAK:   Senator Durbin, let me see if I can understand what's really going on. Al Gore likes to stand up behind a podium and throw thunderbolts, and that's the kind of format that he gets out of these commission debates whereas... 
DURBIN:   Didn't George W. Bush throw a major league thunderbolt yesterday? 
NOVAK:   ... whereas George W. Bush likes to sit around a table and fire it back and forth. So they like different formats. Isn't that -- isn't that what's going on? 
DURBIN:   I think what I've heard from Al Gore is he'll accept both formats, and I think what I'm hearing from George W. Bush is he's not comfortable spending three 90-minute debates with Al Gore. And if you listen to what he said during the course of the campaign, it's understandable. These are major leagues debates. The question is George W. Bush ready for prime time, and the answer is he's not. 
NOVAK:   You know, I'm going to ask you a question I probably shouldn't ask. I'm supposed to be a right-wing extremist, you know. But can you tell me what the guy in the diner in Joliet -- have you ever been to Joliet? 
DURBIN:   You bet I have. I was just there a couple of days ago. 
NOVAK:   My home town. What do you think a guy having a cup of coffee, what do you think he thinks about this discussion we're having right now? 
DURBIN:   Typical politicians -- that would be his response. 
NOVAK:   All right. Thank you very much. 
PRESS:   I don't want to flog the debate issue too much, just for one more question, senator, on this, because I have here -- this is the proposal actually from the presidential commission, the three debates. And I think this has to be made clear. One of them is standing behind podiums. The other is sitting at a table like "LARRY KING," around a table with one moderator, and the third one is a town meeting. So in effect, that commission proposal gives George Bush everything he really would have wanted accept not so many people. Isn't that the only difference? 
HUTCHINSON:   No, I don't think that's the difference at all. 
PRESS:   There it is. 
HUTCHINSON:   I'm perfectly confident that he will win those debates and I think the more exposure the better. But let's don't lock into just the commission debates; let's allow some latitude. Let's look outside the box. Let's try some different things. And I think that's what Governor Bush has been saying. 
PRESS:   All right. Senator Durbin said he tried something different today. Finally, two weeks after getting caught with no plan at all, George Bush comes up with the his own prescription drug plan. Before we get to the specifics of it, senator, this is a huge issue that millions and millions of Americans face, particularly seniors. What took him so long? Didn't he know about this issue? Didn't he think it was important? 
HUTCHINSON:   Yes, important enough to think about it and do it right and not come out with a half-baked plan. So I think -- look, we've been debating this thing in Congress for a long time without successful resolve, I might add. And so I think no, I don't think there's been any delay in coming forward with a specific plan. I think this is very timely, and -- let's debate the plans out there. It certainly has some advantages. I think it's well-thought-out and a well-formulated... 
PRESS:   But it looks like he's just responding to what Al Gore said: Where's your plan? I don't have a plan, I'll have one in two weeks. And now, when he comes out with it, Gore says, we're going to put this prescription drug coverage as part of Medicare. And Bush says, accept for the poorest among the seniors, go to your insurance company and the insurance company will offer you a plan. So Bush is saying trust your insurance company. Why should they trust their insurance company to provide prescription drug coverage and be able to afford it? 
HUTCHINSON:   That's not what he's saying. 
PRESS:   That's exactly what he says. 
HUTCHINSON:   The lower-income Americans would have all of the prescription drug coverage. 
PRESS:   Well, I stated that, senator. I stated that. 
HUTCHINSON:   And there would be, as you know, a sliding scale for those at higher incomes so that they would pay some, and there would be a catastrophic provision so that no American would may more than $6,000 a year in prescription drugs. It has an immediacy factor, an immediate helping hand to the states so that you can help provided next year for those most vulnerable. The problem with the Gore plan is that you're going to have three years, perhaps eight years before it's all phased in, and those who need it the most need to get help now, not eight years from now. 
NOVAK:   Senator, let's -- you're a man of the world and I think... 
DURBIN:   I take that as a compliment -- Illinois. 
NOVAK:   And I think you can -- know what's going on here, and that is that way back in 1993, '94, the Clintons failed miserably on their socialized medicine plan for a big national health plan, and so they are doing it incrementally and this is to put a socialized medicine plan for pharmaceuticals -- for drugs and it's much more expensive than George Bush's, and it's because it provided for everybody, whether you need it or not, which is the basis of socialized medicine. You can agree with me on all that, can't you?  
DURBIN:   Bob, throughout your illustrious career in journalism you've been fighting socialism, you fought it when it came in the vestiges of Medicare, for example, back in the '60s, another socialist idea, who are -- those Bolsheviks have just come in with a brand new idea, they're going to take care of the seniors and handicapped people in America. You've fought that kind of socialism... 
NOVAK:   You don't have to butter me up. 
DURBIN:   I'm telling you...    You've been consistent... 
PRESS:   He's proud of it. 
DURBIN:   You've been consistently wrong. What Al Gore is proposing is a universal plan that everyone has access to. The problem with George Bush's approach -- there are three basic problems -- half of America is left out, they get no protection; secondly, you rely on the insurance companies -- take that to a town meeting in Joliet and say, trust your loving insurance companies to make the right decision -- and third, he has no money to spend on it because he gave away a multi-trillion dollar tax cut to the wealthiest people in America. 
NOVAK:   You've disappointed me -- just -- I just want to get this in. You disappointed me terribly, Senator, on the big question. 
DURBIN:   Oh, no. 
NOVAK:   But I want you to just look at -- if you can agree with what Governor Bush said on one part of the Gore plan. Let's take a look at it. 
BUSH:   Under the Gore plan, you're out of luck. You have only one choice, the one the government makes for you. The Gore plan gives seniors just one chance to buy into drug coverage at age 64 and 1/2. If you want coverage at age 67, for example, or you change your mind, you're again out of luck. 
NOVAK:   That's the real deal, isn't it? 
DURBIN:   The real deal is you're either going to have a plan where we're going to negotiate with these drug companies, for example, to get a formulary and affordable drugs, or you're going to really throw people, as George Bush has, to the mercy of the insurance industry. And I can tell you in Joliet, Springfield and Chicago, the people that I represent don't believe the insurance companies have their best interests at heart. George W. Bush does. 
PRESS:   All right, Senators, we are going take a break there. When we come back, Congress is back in session. When we come back, the big question is, what are they going to do to us -- I mean for us?
