CARLSON:   Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. It is the Fourth of July weekend, and we�re talking about patriotism, and of course to consider whether the Pledge of Allegiance violates the United States Constitution. In the CROSSFIRE tonight, the Reverend Barry Lynn, who's the executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, and the Reverend Lou Sheldon of Traditional Values Coalition. We'll get to them in a moment, but first our audience, most members of it, of course, agree with the rest of America. This is an appalling decision. Not all though,   open to them - yes ma'am. 
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:   Hello, my name is Colleen Jenkins Saleed (ph) and I'm a legislator from Greenwich, Connecticut, the home of the Bushes. I have a question. Since the phrase "under God" was inserted in 1954, isn't it time to drop it from good government? 
CARLSON:   All things since 1954. 
SHELDON:   No, I think it's only the time now to begin to even add more things in legislation that would help build the foundation of America. I'm convinced that George Washington was right when he said of all the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, there are two indispensable supports, religion and morality. 
BEGALA:   ... Jesus Christ, if you could, Reverend?  
SHELDON:   No, that wouldn't be good. I want the Church to preach Christ. That's our prerogative. That's our right and we don't want the state messing with that. 
CARLSON:   ... this 1954 business a bit of a canard. 
UNIDENTIFIED MALE:   No. 
CARLSON:   I mean sure this was added in '54, that is true, during the McCarthy era, as you ominously pointed out. But so many other documents and parts of American life had God in them from the very beginning, like the Declaration. You still haven't responded to that. Your point was it doesn't mean anything. 
LYNN:   No, it's just not a legal document. It wasn't the foundation of our country ... 
CARLSON:   The Pledge of Allegiance is a legal oath. 
LYNN:   It was an act of Congress ...    ... and that's -- the only thing, remember, the court did today ... 
CARLSON:   It's not binding for third graders. 
LYNN:   ... was to say that the words "under God" should be removed. We can still say, and I would hope most people would want to say, the Pledge of Allegiance minus those words. 
CARLSON:   But ... 
LYNN:   Those of us who are ...    ... those of us who are religious and who don't have any problem with the phrase "under God" can continue to say it. 
CARLSON:   Those of us ... 
LYNN:   But those people ... 
CARLSON:   ... should be whom? 
LYNN:   I mean even myself, Reverend Lynn who goes believes in God, who goes to church, but who does not believe the government has any business or any expertise in telling us how to be religious. 
CARLSON:   You don't seem to like the word, I have to say. 
LYNN:   I would like the people in Congress to obey, for example, the 10 Commandments, not urge that they be posted on the walls. 
SHELDON:   Is that so wrong?    Well but the Congress ... 
BEGALA:   ... from our audience - I'm sorry Reverend -- yes ma'am. 
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:   Hi, I'm Judy Tomec (ph) from LaQuinta, California and my question is in these times in the United States of America with the emphasis on united, what slogan or phrase or pledge can people say in order to show their unity? 
CARLSON:   What would you allow, Barry? What would the thought police ... 
LYNN:   The Pledge of Allegiance -- I'm not the thought police, but the Pledge of Allegiance ... 
CARLSON:   You appear to be. 
LYNN:   ... without those two words, ma'am, managed to get us through two world wars and out of the Great Depression. It wasn't the words - there's no magic to the words "under God". They mean something to those of us who are religious ... 
CARLSON:   There seem to be ...    You're all very hyped up about it and they seem to be ... 
LYNN:   Well ... 
CARLSON:   ... magic words to you. 
LYNN:   ... that's because ... 
SHELDON:   ... because I'm here, that's why he's ... 
LYNN:   Well, I'm not -- well you do -- you do cause me some palpitations. I will agree with that. And what worries me more is that Lou and lots of members of Congress want to add more. They want to help the church be religious. They want to help all of you be religious. I'd just like them to help them with - help the church the most, which is for Congress and the state legislators to not touch ... 
BEGALA:   Let me ask you. When you said you want Congress to do more, and this is, in truth, just the front edge of the wedge of your agenda, right? You want the government to send taxpayer money to religious schools. You want the government to force children to say prayers in those government ... 
SHELDON:   No, no force -- no force. 
BEGALA:   You don't want school prayer? 
SHELDON:   I want volunteer ... 
BEGALA:   You have volunteer school prayer now Reverend with all due respect ... 
SHELDON:   Not -- no. 
BEGALA:   Every math test, believe me, there is a prayer. 
SHELDON:   Yes ... 
BEGALA:   So you want a greater governmental role in religion, don't you? 
SHELDON:   Let me tell you what we need. First you have to understand Congress opens in prayer. 
BEGALA:   Yes, sir, I know. 
SHELDON:   They pay a chaplain -- the Army, the Navy, the Marine Corps and the Coast Guard, they all have chaplains. 
BEGALA:   But you said you wanted to do more. I want to know what that agenda is. 
SHELDON:   That agenda is very simple. It is to bring that emphasis that we as a nation are not going to be blessed and I would concur with what the Senate passed in its resolution where it says very simply that that nation will be blessed whose God is the lord. Now what does that mean? 
CARLSON:   Unfortunately, we -- I think we'd love to know what it means, but we're out of time. We're blessed to have you here. 
SHELDON:   Well, let's leave it at that ... 
CARLSON:   Thank you both.    We appreciate it.  Just ahead on CROSSFIRE, "Fireback," where our viewers get to take us on. And one of you has some horrible things to say about an earlier guest, conservative author Ann Coulter. We'll share that and more, next. So, stick around. We'll be right back.
