CARLSON:   Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Across America this Independence Day weekend, flags, flags and yet more flags. As Americans display their patriotism, a national debate over the Pledge of Allegiance is raging. Last week, a federal appeals court in California, one dominated by liberals, declared the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional and unfit for the classroom. By a 2-1 margin, a court panel said the phrase "one nation under God" amounts to government establishment of religion, something which is expressly forbidden by the First Amendment. The president and virtually every other American has called this ridiculous decision what it is. Welcome to our brave new world. Stepping in the CROSSFIRE tonight, the Reverend Barry Lynn. He's executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State. And with him is the Reverend Lou Sheldon of the Traditional Values Coalition. 
UNIDENTIFIED MALE:   Reverend.    Thank you sir. 
CARLSON:   All right. Barry Lynn, not everyone is comfortable with the phrase "one nation under God". 
LYNN:   That's right. 
CARLSON:   I'll grant you that, but it's not establishment of a state religion and it's not an attempt to establish a state religion. So how in the world is this one phrase unconstitutional? 
LYNN:   Well, the Congress of the United States in 1954 decided to take a perfectly good Pledge of Allegiance that supported our democratic, patriotic principals and added to it the controversial clause "under God". Now it does mean something. This is the national Pledge of Allegiance to the American flag. It's as close to an official act of endorsing monotheism, belief in one God, as anything I can imagine. So I can imagine you saying that sometimes when I appear on this program that you don't see the separation of church and state issue, but when Congress declares that to be a good American patriot, you also have to believe in one God, that crosses the line. 
CARLSON:   Well, of course that's not what Congress is declaring. But it goes deeper than that.    When you say the Pledge of Allegiance is about as close as we get to a unifying national document, let's get even closer. Let's get to the Declaration of Independence. Doubtless you're familiar with it. The first paragraph mentions God. The second, more famous paragraph, does too. But we hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal if they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights and among these were like liberty and the pursuit of happiness. This is the central document (ph) of American democracy ... 
LYNN:   No, it's not. 
CARLSON:   ... is it unconstitutional? 
LYNN:   No it's actually not. It's the ... 
CARLSON:   Barry, it's the Declaration of Independence. 
LYNN:   ... it's the central political statement about what this country was going to become. But when we wrote the Constitution, we quite deliberately didn't put the word God in it at all, because that was the governing principal -- that was the principal that was going to guarantee the one freedom above all others. 
CARLSON:   So the Declaration doesn't really mean .anything? 
LYNN:   ... the freedom - the freedom of conscience and if you don't believe in the freedom of conscience and the right of somebody to say, this should not - you should not tie to me both religion and patriotism. They are two different things. I can be 100 percent American without believing in God. You violate their conscience, now a court has said you can't have those words in the pledge, and I think it makes perfectly good sense. 
SHELDON:   At this time they've said that. Wait to see what really is going to happen, Barry. You're in for a surprise. 
BEGALA:   Reverend Sheldon, thank you -- first, let me thank you for joining us. 
SHELDON:   Well, you're glad to be here, man. 
BEGALA:   And second let me ... 
SHELDON:   Let's go. 
BEGALA:   ... read to you from the opinion ... 
SHELDON:   My opinion? 
BEGALA:   No, sir. I want your opinion in a minute. I want to put up on the screen from the court's opinion, the 9th Circuit Court. By the way, Alfred T. Goodwin, a Republican judge who wrote this, wrote this. 
SHELDON:   No ...    ... he's not going to be a Republican very long. 
BEGALA:   Excuse me, Reverend. A profession that we are a "nation under God" is identical for establishment clause purposes, to a profession that we are a nation under Jesus, a nation under Vishnu, a nation under Zeus or a nation under no god because none of these professions can be neutral with respect to religion. How is "under God" neutral with respect to religion? 
SHELDON:   Well, the issue is this: that this has always been our basis, starting with the first act of Congress when the Northwest Territory was established. They said that the Northwest Territory is being established because they want to provide religion, morality and knowledge, and they were all necessary for good government, same way that George Washington ... 
BEGALA:   By the way this came out of the northwestern United States. How did they do?    How did it work out? 
SHELDON:   It worked out fine. I'll tell you why ... 
BEGALA:   Is that right? So they're all God-fearing ... 
SHELDON:   ... because the Congress believed that it was so important that as the West expanded, that the key be that religion be there. So they gave every so many sections of land in townships to the church, a church, and they paid for the building of that church, gave the land, built a church, paid the minister's salary for so long. That's a historic fact. The Senate made those treaties. Furthermore, when Washington gave his farewell address in 1796, he said of all the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, and we all want political prosperity, two indispensable supports for political prosperity. What are they? Religion and morality. And what did the United States ...    What did the United States Senate do today? They voted 99 to nothing to absolutely proclaim, "Court, you're dead wrong, because if you think we're going to let you get away with this, this is just a bunch of activism." 
BEGALA:   No, let me interject for just a minute because this judge, you interjected before ... 
SHELDON:   Yes. 
BEGALA:   ... when I mention the judge, Judge Goodwin is a Republican judge. You said not for long. Is your movement going to try to impeach him or kick him out of the Republican Party or something, Reverend?  
SHELDON:   I doubt if he's even a card-carrying Republican ... 
BEGALA:   Well, he's a Republican federal judge, a good case, by the way, for Democratic judges. 
SHELDON:   Listen, I would question if he even voted for Bush. I would even question if he's ever given to the Republican National Committee. 
BEGALA:   He's a federal judge. 
LYNN:   We don't -- luckily we don't have to know all of that. We only have to know that in 1892 when the Pledge of Allegiance, which, by the way, was written, you know it wasn't created at the founding of the country. It was written by a minister who apparently didn't think it was necessary to call specifically for the inclusion of God. That was included, Tucker, and you know why. 
CARLSON:   Well, that means precisely nothing, Barry ...    ... let me ask you .. 
LYNN:   ... as part of the Joe McCarthy agendas... 
SHELDON:   Why do we have ... 
CARLSON:   And speaking of McCarthy ... 
UNIDENTIFIED MALE:   Why do we give Bibles to all the ... 
LYNN:   Let's talk about McCarthy. 
CARLSON:   Barry, I want - and you're using it right now. 
SHELDON:   Why does the president put his hand on the bible before he can be sworn in ... 
CARLSON:   Mr. Sheldon, I want to make that exact point. Now the president has said, and you heard, that this is a ridiculous ruling. Correct, Congress agrees with him. Today his spokesman, Ari Fleischer, held a briefing and he made, I'm not sure intentionally, but a fascinating point. Here's Ari Fleischer. 
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN:   Yesterday when the president was in Arizona comforting the families who lost their homes in the fire, the thing he said that brought the most warmth and hope to those people gathered in that high school was have faith in God Almighty. 
CARLSON:   Now here you have the president of the United States, a federal employee, the very symbol of the federal government, telling people, exhorting them, have faith in God Almighty. This -- I mean, bailiff, take him away. This should be illegal, should it not? 
LYNN:   I'm delighted that Ari thinks that but for the presence of President Bush no one would have had faith in God in Arizona. 
CARLSON:   Please answer the question. Shouldn't he be allowed to say this -- the president of the United States saying have faith in God Almighty. 
LYNN:   The president of the United States, frankly -- he has the right to say a lot of things ... 
CARLSON:   Why? 
LYNN:   ... but the point is this is a president who wears his religion on his sleeve in a way unlike any other president ... 
SHELDON:   And I suppose the 99 senators today did the same thing, huh? 
LYNN:   Yes, I think - I think that when the United States Senate votes 99 to zero, or whatever it did today, to say that a court is wrong, there probably is just a tiny bit of political ... 
CARLSON:   But don't you think ...    ... to be fair -- to be fair, Barry ...  
LYNN:   Don't you? 
CARLSON:   Don't you think it goes a little bit deeper than that? I mean our very currency has the word "God" on it, something from which no American can get away. You are confronted with U.S. currency every day. 
LYNN:   But this proves, I think, my point. 
CARLSON:   My question, should it be legal? Why should our currency say "In God We Trust". 
LYNN:   I would be completely happy if it didn't. The fact it does. The fact is it doesn't make us godly. We use that same currency ... 
CARLSON:   Nobody's arguing it does. 
LYNN:   ... to buy alcohol, to buy drugs, to bribe public officials ... 
CARLSON:   But that's a straw man and not even the point. 
LYNN:   It just proves that you can't make people religious because you put a message ... 
UNIDENTIFIED MALE:   Go ahead. 
LYNN:   ... on coins. 
BEGALA:   Reverend Sheldon ... 
SHELDON:   Go ahead. 
BEGALA:   Barry points out that in the 1950s this phrase "under God" was added, since then every school child for a half a century has repeated that phrase. Are we more religious today than we were in the '50s? 
SHELDON:   Well, I can say this, when I was a child growing up, I don't ever remember there being religious book stores, Catholic or Protestant of any significance to support the religion that you may have chosen. Second, I don't remember there ... 
BEGALA:   Were there book stores when you a child? 
SHELDON:   I said religious book stores. 
BEGALA:   OK. 
SHELDON:   Like you have today, national Christian booksellers. You have the national religious broadcasters that meet every year with thousands of people attending. There is a stronger feeling. Now, do more people attend church today than then? No, I think the attendance has pretty well stayed the same. Membership has pretty well stayed the same, but there is a difference. Look what happened on 9/11. Has this judge, Republican or Democrat, libertarian or whatever he is, reform party, whatever he may be, have they forgotten what happened to us on 9/11? Do we have to go through another, hey, God says I'm going to get your attention. 
UNIDENTIFIED MALE:   Wait a minute ... 
BEGALA:   Do you believe that God caused or condoned the attacks of September 11? 
SHELDON:   I'm telling you that God uses anything that man does to give glory to himself. And you think that this thing that they've just done is going to be left undone. Listen, this is like Pearl Harbor on December the 7th.    What is the good ... 
LYNN:   Absolutely ridiculous. 
SHELDON:   Let me finish. What came out of December the 7th? You awaken the sleeping giant. Thank you.    You awaken the sleeping giant and they're going to awaken ... 
LYNN:   Reverend Sheldon -- Reverend Sheldon, the point is, one of the ... 
SHELDON:   Go ahead. 
LYNN:   ... one of the center points of what this country is and why it is different from every country including the countries that are conducting terrorism ... 
SHELDON:   It's different because it's based upon the bible. 
BEGALA:   All right, Reverend, based on fairness, this show is. Go, Barry Lynn. 
LYNN:   ... we do not have religion - the equivalent of politics or political position in this country ... 
UNIDENTIFIED MALE:   Oh ...    No, but wait ... 
LYNN:   Do you believe you can be patriotic, Lou, if you are not religious? I do. I think ... 
CARLSON:   Well, then, I want you to answer my question ...    Hold on. One at a time. Mr. Lynn, I want you to - I want you to answer my question ... 
LYNN:   On the currency issue, if we were starting over, of course we shouldn't ... 
CARLSON:   I'm saying right now ... 
LYNN:   ... and by the way we shouldn't. 
CARLSON:   No, but right now. 
LYNN:   This affirmation with ... 
CARLSON:   Why? 
LYNN:   ... the pledge of the allegiance is so much more important than whether "In God We Trust" is on a coin. 
CARLSON:   And how is that? 
LYNN:   Because this is something that is in front of every child. Every child ...  
CARLSON:   And money is not? 
LYNN:   ... is told in California - wait a minute, every child is told in California to say the prayer - excuse me, the Pledge of Allegiance, sometimes it is hard to tell the difference because ... 
CARLSON:   And no one is required to, by the way. 
LYNN:   ... it has God in it. 
CARLSON:   Not one child in this country is required to say the Pledge of Allegiance. 
LYNN:   If you're in the second - Tucker, if - unless you are a very precocious child, in the second grade, you probably ... 
CARLSON:   Barry, you're pretending that ... 
LYNN:   When people are saying go ahead and do it. 
SHELDON:   Listen, "In God We Trust" is on every one dollar bill ... 
LYNN:   Yes ... 
SHELDON:   ... every five dollar bill, every ten dollar, 20, 50 ...    Hundred, thousand ... 
BEGALA:   Has it made any of those bandits at WorldCom more moral or God fearing, sir? I don't think it has. I think they chase that dollar bill like anything in the world and they don't follow God's scripture ... 
SHELDON:   Yes. 
BEGALA:   ... when they do it. They're greedy ... 
SHELDON:   Listen, you're absolutely correct. 
CARLSON:   How did you get WorldCom in here? 
SHELDON:   Listen ... 
BEGALA:   That is chasing that dollar. 
SHELDON:   That is the sinner's viewpoint. 
BEGALA:   Well, so it doesn't do any good ... 
SHELDON:   No, wait a minute, now ...    Wait a minute. 
CARLSON:   All right, unfortunately ...    Mr. Sheldon, no we can't. We have to take a commercial break ... 
BEGALA:   When we come back, we'll ask our guests if the Pledge of Allegiance case really is the end of patriotism as we know it or just perhaps a cynical attempt on the part of the far right to distract people from the Bush recession. Stay with us.
