ANNOUNCER:   CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala. On the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson. In the CROSSFIRE tonight: He's a Washington monument. 
TRAFICANT:   Let's tell it like it is. 
ANNOUNCER:   A Capitol Hill fixture. 
TRAFICANT:   Not anymore. 
ANNOUNCER:   Tonight, Congressman James Traficant. 
TRAFICANT:   Beam me up! 
ANNOUNCER:   This is your money. This is your money fighting drugs. 
UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS:   This is your brain. This is heroin. This is what happens to your brain after snorting heroin. 
ANNOUNCER:   Any questions? We've got plenty about dopey ads, ahead on CROSSFIRE. From the George Washington University, Paul Begala and Tucker Carlson. 
AL:   Good evening, welcome to CROSSFIRE, coming to you live from the George Washington University. In the last five years, Washington has spent nearly $1 billion of your money on advertising to keep our kids off of drugs. Guess what? Our new drug czar now says it didn't work. Defenders of the war on drugs say otherwise. We're putting those controversial ads in the CROSSFIRE. First, has Washington seen the last of Representative James Traficant? The Ohio democrat is known for a lot more than his hair, more than just his independence and more than his colorful speeches on the House floor, more even than for sticking up for the little guy. These days he is mostly known for the 10 felony convictions that may get him sent to prison and expelled from Congress. Representative James Traficant joins from us Youngstown, Ohio. Congressman, good to be with you. 
TRAFICANT:   How are you doing, George Washington? I have spoken over there. Good to see you. Tucker, I hope there's no Freudian slips. I've had enough of that so behave yourself. 
CARLSON:   I bet you have. Congressman, I promise you none. 
TRAFICANT:   Good to hear from Novak, and I know Begala's over there. They're all excited over this Chinese money that went to the Democratic National Committee. They are glad to see me try and get out of the way. Let's get down and dirty and get on with it. 
CARLSON:   Let's do that. You've been on CROSSFIRE before, a number of times. You were last on in February before your trial. When you came on that night we asked you about your legal strategy and here's your description of it. 
TRAFICANT:   I'm going to get in their face. I don't like them. I don't like what they've done to our country. I don't like how they scare people. I don't like how they intimidate people. Judges appointed a lifetime term scared to death of these people. These bureaucrats run America. Congress better take America back for the American people. I'm just a son of a truck driver and I'm going to try and kick their ass, that's candid as I can be. 
CARLSON:   Mr. Traficant, you acted as your own lawyer in that trial, not to Monday morning quarterback, but it seems like you had a fool for a client or a lawyer. You were convicted. 
TRAFICANT:   I'm the only in American history to have defeated the Justice Department in a RICO case pro se, and that was the part of the vendetta obsession with the Justice Department. Frankly no attorney would have done any different. I was basically convicted by a judge, prosecuted by a judge, and will be sentenced by a judge. And I think this doesn't help me but to tell it like it is. We have a judicial aristocracy in America that really isn't concerned about Congress. They are concerned about the FBI and IRS. The only way they could be impeached is to be investigated the by them. They had no eye-witnesses, they had no fingerprints, no physical evidence, no wire taps, no hidden microphones in six years, and went back 15 years trying to find one cash expenditure, couldn't find it. And I was convicted on the testimony of felons or would-be felons without the corroboration of one IRS or FBI agent that took the stand because they knew I impeach them. So this is a most unusual case and quite frankly, I'm not all that upset about it. And I think I will go forward, I'll fight the hell out of them, and I will say this, I believe my outspokenness on China with a general in the Red Chinese army gave money to the Democrat National Committee, should have been investigated. I think Reno did commit treason. I think that was part of the process that was involved here. And Second of all, I think it doesn't appeal to many people, but I was the No. 1 target of American Israeli Public Affairs Committee behind former President Bush and Secretary Baker in the early '90s. People are after me. 
CARLSON:   I believe that -- I think you're right, people are after you. Some of them in the prosecution. Part of the reason they are after you, apart from the fact you committed all these crimes, was because you constantly... 
TRAFICANT:   Alleged crimes. 
CARLSON:   Well, You were -- actually you've been convicted so in fact, they are crimes. 
TRAFICANT:   No, they're not crimes, I have yet to be sentenced. 
CARLSON:   I want to read you a quote... 
TRAFICANT:   Yes, I have threatened them. 
CARLSON:   Let me ask you, one of your many threats was this, or one of your many characterizations of the prosecution you said, quote, "they have the testicles of an ant." You said that in public. That couldn't have made them any lighter on you. Don't you think it was a mistake to provoke the prosecution? 
TRAFICANT:   Actually, they didn't need a prosecutor in this case. Again, the judge denied me the opportunity to bring in seven tapes that would have impeached all their felon witnesses. Again, nine of my witnesses were subject under oath to testify outside the presence of the jury, and were not allowed to testify. Some of these witnesses couldn't even identify the so-called places where they supposedly bribed me. It became a joke. And let me tell you something, in the state of Ohio, you need a 0.10 blood alcohol content level to be convicted of a DUI. They offered no physical evidence and didn't even have an FBI agent or IRS agent take the stand. Except for summary agents that testified, they did no investigation, just added on numbers that the government gave them. So this was an unusual case -- most unusual. And it's not over. They do have the testicles of an ant. 
AL:   There is a report in the "Daily Business Journal" in Ohio today that a special subcommittee of the House Ethics Committee has sent you a statement accusing you formally of wrongdoing, setting in motion the process to have you expelled from the House. First, are you going to fight expulsion from the House? If so, how? 
TRAFICANT:   No. 1 there's a process that goes into this, Tucker, Paul, whoever the hell I'm speaking to here. 
AL:   This is Paul. 
TRAFICANT:   Paul. I know you're a big Clinton man. And I know the DNC covered up an awful lot of that money that came from China. 
AL:   I'm just curious if you're going to fight expulsion and if so, how? 
TRAFICANT:   I predict that eventually they'll attack America. Believe me when I tell you that. 
AL:   Are you going to fight expulsion from the House, congressman? If so, how? 
TRAFICANT:   Yes, I am and I have an opportunity to bring a defense. I think the House members are very concerned and I don't blame them. There's a lot of great members of Congress, but the truth of the matter is Congress has become an advisory board. The people who run America are the Treasury Department, the IRS the FBI, everybody's afraid to death of them and I think an America that fears their government is not a good America for the future, and it's time to pass a flat 15 percent national sales tax, abolish the Sixteenth Amendment, throw the IRS the hell out, it will bring down costs, bring jobs back to America. Why should we be born to live in... 
AL:   As much I am interested in debating tax policy, Congressman, I want to come back to this question of your expulsion. 
TRAFICANT:   I know that's what you want to do, but I'm the guest here, do you understand? 
AL:   I understand you want to attack the Democratic Party, but I want to read you a quote from a Republican, not a Democrat -- James Sensenbrenner, nobody's idea of a liberal. He is a Republican, he is of course the chairman of the House Judiciary Committee. Here is what he said about you, and I quote: "Felons belong in jail and not in our Congress. If he will not voluntarily leave this House our duty is to remove him." That's not just a Democrat, it seems both parties are repulsed by your conduct. 
TRAFICANT:   Well, I don't know if they're repulsed by my conduct, I think they should give me an opportunity to appeal. One of the jurors says most of those congressmen are crooked down there and he unfortunately got caught, so I think that showed a predisposition. Remember, there was no physical evidence of corroboration of any spoken word. One of the witnesses was a third plea agreement who is trying to get his brother back from Cuba for crying out loud. I never seen anything more ridiculous in my life. Frankly I think it's going to blow up in their face. 
CARLSON:   Mr. Traficant, I think one of the things that bothered the jurors, certainly one of the things that bothered long-time fans you had in Washington, you had many, as you know, the nature of some of the crimes you committed was different than what people imagined. It turned out you were in some cases shafting or extorting the little guy, including your contractor, Anthony Bukey (ph), who apparently did $13,000 of work for you, you refused to pay him. That's not the James Traficant that people thought they knew, the guy who helped the little man. 
TRAFICANT:   Anthony Bukey had his third plea agreement, was trying to make arrangements to bring his brother back from Cuba, and his own sister-in-law testified he was a crook and that the Bukey family actually owed me money and that he was lying. Look, I've had nine witnesses that weren't allowed to take the stand, but under oath were questioned by the judge. I had seven tapes were not admitted that would abolish this whole case. And remember, they poisoned the jury pool by saying I was involved in a contract murder that was never introduced into court because that was a sham. Then there was a $150,000 barn, and then I went ahead and met with the individual, who apologized because he lied and admitted it and I taped his girlfriend the next day, they threw that out. This is the most unusual case in history.    The one staff person that testified we found out at the end of the trial, the FBI was holding a bribery charge over his head, that's why he had immunity. And this is a sham. Look, we're getting to the point where RICO has been brought down to three house wives conspiring to buy Kelloggs or Wheaties on the grocery shelf. This is how crazy the case is. I'm not out yet. Now I like Congress. I'm going to present my case to the Ethics Committee. But I have been the No. 1 target of APAC for a number of years, and I would let some members know in Congress who are targets to be very careful what you say. See, in America today, be careful what you say. We have a First Amendment but watch how you say it. I think that too many Americans fear their government. 
AL:   Let me hold you accountable for something you said a moment ago. You said there was no physical evidence when in fact, I've reviewed the record of the trial, there were six books filled with physical evidence, bills, invoices, checks, there were bank records, there were deeds... 
TRAFICANT:   Let me ask you something then. No fingerprints on 1,000 documents sent to the forensic lab? These include plastic bags, manila envelopes? Come on now. All of these people were either going to lose their freedom or lose their millions. One brother-in-law testified against a brother-in-law that he said he lied when he said he bribed Traficant because he'd go to jail for 10 years and he would lose $15 million. He says that's all they wanted was Traficant. I have tapes on every one of these. They will be submitted to the Ethics Committee. And this is going to be a barn burner. But I will tell you what, I'm not going to be pushed around by a government that lives on fear. The IRS literally testified, if you pass the Traficant amendments in the '98 reform bill, that changes the burden of proof in a civil tax case and requires judicial consent before they can seize our house, the element of fear will be removed from the tax code, and without fear we won't collect taxes. Is this what America's become, Paul, Tucker? Fear your government? I certainly don't. Get your best hole (ph). 
CARLSON:   Amen. Well, we fear running out of time. We are going to take a quick commercial break. We'll be right back to hear more about the conspiracy if you can hold on a moment. 
TRAFICANT:   I'm against that too. You know, you make your money on this show. 
CARLSON:   Congressman Traficant, stand by for more of the wit, wisdom, and wardrobe of Congressman James A. Traficant of Ohio. Later allegations the nation's anti-drug ad campaign is get no bang for the buck. And speaking of money, the source for our quote of the day is one of our nation's top money men. In this context he's half a brand new odd couple.
