BEGALA:   We are back, talking about today's turmoil in the Middle East with James Zogby of the Arab-American Institute and Democratic Congressman Anthony Weiner of New York. Gentlemen, you've been kind enough to also entertain questions from our audience. So let's turn to this audience member right here; this young man who has a question for you.  
BEN COHEN:   Hi, I'm Ben Cohen (ph) from Seattle, Washington. And my question is, should President Bush send ex-President Bill Clinton to Israel to help start negotiations and to be part of the negotiations? 
BEGALA:   Jim Zogby? 
ZOGBY:   Well, let me tell you, I think President Clinton did a remarkable job as a negotiator and as attempting to resolve this, and I believe that if the Clinton plan had been offered instead of the last two weeks of his administration, if he had offered it a year earlier and sold it to the Israeli and Palestinian people, it would have worked. But I have full confidence in Colin Powell. I think he's a remarkable human being, very respected and very intelligent. And frankly, right now he's a member of this administration. I hope he has the ear and the respect of the president, and I think Colin Powell right now is the best man to do the job, but I'd like him to work from the Clinton plan. 
WEINER:   Let me just say, Clinton negotiated the Camp David plan, Palestinians rejected it. Tenet has since been rejected by the Palestinians, Mitchell rejected by the Palestinians. We've had Cheney to get them to Mitchell, that's been rejected. And I'm sure we'll have the Powell plan to get to Tenet to get to Cheney -- frankly, the Palestinians don't want peace. So what we have to do is take this by force. 
CARLSON:   And we have another question from the audience. Sir, you have a question? 
DEPAUL SADUALL:   DePaul Saduall (ph) from Richmond, Virginia. My question to you gentlemen is: Did President Bush send Colin Powell too late to make a difference? 
WEINER:   Well, I happen to believe he sent him at the wrong time. I think that you don't reward violence by sending in our big star to go there simply to have more violence. Let's remember, both times Zinni went in, violence spiked up. I happen to think that this is a reward for the terrorists who want to internationalize this dispute. 
CARLSON:   Let me just ask you one question that I think is on the minds of a lot of people who are watching this unfold. The situation at the Church of the Nativity, surrounded by Israeli troops who have shot a monk, as you know, apparently set the building on fire. It's one of the holiest places in the world for Christians. And I'm wondering why the government of Israel, the people inside so valuable to the government of Israeli that that government should continue to put this building and the people in it at risk? 
WEINER:   What kind of respect for the Christian holy sites are the Palestinians terrorists showing? 
CARLSON:   Zero. But that's not my question. 
WEINER:   ... by using that site? 
CARLSON:   Well, I absolutely agree with you. 
WEINER:   But to ignore that element of this is to ignore the fundamental question. 
CARLSON:   I'm ask you do you think the Israeli army should continue to surround this building? 
WEINER:   I think we should -- I think the Israeli government has shown the utmost respect for Christian holy sites and I think they should continue to do so.    However, however, if you are a terrorist, if you're bin Laden or you're Mullah Omar or you're Arafat and you're in a Christian holy site, we're going to go get you. Period. 
ZOGBY:   Congressman, I thought that was interesting. Wait. He said "we." One side of the flag is Israel, the other is the United States. You've got to make up your mind who you represent. 
WEINER:   We're those on the side of democracy and freedom and against terrorism. 
ZOGBY:   Congressman, give me a break. 
WEINER:   It's us against you. 
ZOGBY:   Me? 
WEINER:   It's against people who... 
ZOGBY:   You're going to storm my house, too? 
WEINER:   No, you know what I'm going to say? I think that George Bush was right, you're either with the terrorists or with us. 
ZOGBY:   I'm against the terrorists and I'm with us, and I believe in peace in the Middle East, and that leads me to support Colin Powell's mission, because I think it did come too late, but nevertheless it came. We've got to support it and we've got to make it work. We have to have an independent Palestinian state, an independent Israel, and we may need international peacekeepers to separate the two. 
BEGALA:   As a patriotic American, you did support America in the war in Afghanistan, and Congressman Weiner is drawing a lot of parallels. When suicide bombers attacked the United States, we didn't just go house to house with guns and even helicopters. We went in with B-52s, aircraft carriers, cruise missiles, everything we had, and we leveled whole areas of that country as we had to do to stop terrorism. How is that not different from what Sharon is doing? 
ZOGBY:   My friend, number one, I don't think we did stop terrorism in Afghanistan, and that is a big problem because we're still sorting that one out now. 
BEGALA:   But we had to use violence. 
ZOGBY:   Number two -- let me make a point. 
BEGALA:   And we used more violence than Sharon. 
ZOGBY:   Let me make a point. There's a fundamental difference. We weren't occupying Afghanistan when those people bombed us. Israel is occupying the West Bank and Gaza, and this story didn't start on Passover and it didn't start the day before or the week before. The fact is that Palestinians have been living under a brutal occupation for 35 years now. Their land has been taken from them, they've been corralled into little towns and villages... 
BEGALA:   None of that justifies killing... 
ZOGBY:   It does not justify it, but neither does the occupation, and neither can it be justified by anything. 
CARLSON:   The last word, thank you very much, Jim Zogby, Congressman Weiner, thank you. "Fireback" is still ahead. Our viewers have the chance to take us to task. Good luck, by the way. And coming up, "Round 6," when I subject Paul to some very vigorous and much-needed discipline. You don't want to miss this. Stay tuned.
