BEGALA:   Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. Now we turn our attention once again to the Middle East, where the already tragic situation grew even more so today with another suicide bombing. What should and what can the United States do? Joining to us debate these questions, Jim Zogby, he's the founder and president of the Arab-American Institute, a nonprofit organization that represents Arab-American interests in both politics and government; and Congressman Anthony Weiner, a New York Democrat who represents Brooklyn and Queens -- Tucker. 
CARLSON:   Thanks for joining us. This administration and every American administration going back to Harry Truman has supported Israel across the board and asked very little in return for $3 billion a year in aid. This administration asked Ariel Sharon very simple fact -- withdraw. And he refused. And in so doing, undermined the secretary of state's trip over to the Middle East and essentially stuck a thumb in the eye of the United States, its greatest benefactor. Why should the United States government continue to subsidize a government that shows this level of disrespect? 
WEINER:   Far from sticking a finger in anyone's eye; they are the foremost practitioners of the Bush doctrine. Bush said, don't let them hide, do go to great lengths to find them. It might take a while. If you fund them, if you support them, if you shelter them... 
CARLSON:   Wait, Bush said: Withdraw from the occupied territories right now. 
WEINER:   Look, he also said you have got to go get terrorists. That's exactly what Israel is doing, and they're doing it successfully. President Bush said for the first 13, 14 months of his administration, we're going to crack down on terrorists. And in the last couple of weeks, he said, well, we don't want to really crack down on them. 
CARLSON:   I think we're having -- we're talking past each other. The president was talking about the Bush doctrine, which applies to the United States of America. 
WEINER:   Wait, no. 
CARLSON:   Wait, hold on. 
WEINER:   He said it applies to every country on earth. 
CARLSON:   He asked Israel something very specific, withdraw now, and Ariel Sharon said no. And in doing so, undermined the secretary of state's trip. How is that  ? 
WEINER:   How is it that going after terrorists house by house, just like we went cave by cave in Afghanistan, is undermining the administration? Quite the opposite. It's Yasser Arafat that's undermining the administration. He's funding the terrorists, he's paying benefits to suicide or homicide bombers. He's shielding them. And for years and years he's been doing this. Who is the person -- who is the agent in that part of the world that's on the side of terrorism? Is it the democracy, or is it the radical suicide bombers? 
BEGALA:   Let me bring Jim Zogby into this. Jim, as you know, we heard the report, six killed, 60 injured today in another suicide bombing, just as Secretary of State Colin Powell has gone to the region. As someone who supports Israel strongly but also thought it was right for Powell to meet with Arafat, I have to say I question that now. What good does it do Colin Powell now to meet with Yasser Arafat when it was his faction that took credit for this bombing today? The only thing that I can see good coming out of this is if Powell goes and arrests him. Why should Secretary Powell meet Arafat? 
ZOGBY:   You leave me speechless, that's such a dumb thing to say. Listen, Paul... 
BEGALA:   You know, excuse me if I get angry when they strap explosives to themselves and blow themselves apart. 
ZOGBY:   You want to know who's angry? You want to know who's angry? I watched that today, too. I saw six people shattered, their lives destroyed, and I cried for those victims. But you know what else happened today, Paul? Hundreds of people were buried in Jenin, and you have no cameras in Jenin, you have no cameras in Nablus and you have no cameras in Ramallah. And your own colleagues, CNN in Ramallah, are being shot at by Israeli snipers. I'll tell you what...    Let me finish, Paul. 
BEGALA:   I agree they should put cameras there, but I am asking you... 
ZOGBY:   So Americans conclude that there's only one side that's human in this conflict, and there are two sides that are human. And Powell has to meet with Arafat, he has to meet with Arafat, because we have enemies at war, and America needs to make peace because it's in our national security interests to stabilize that conflict, because we have beyond Israel and the Palestinians, we have many other allies, many other interests and many other concerns in that region. And American leadership is at stake. If we fail, we fail at our own risk. 
CARLSON:   Congressman, I think Mr. Zogby raises a fascinating question. And that is there are allegations there are massacres in Jenin. I don't know if that's true or not. I do know the government of Israel will not allow film crews in there. And I also know the government has shot a number of reporters. I know it put a bullet through the windshield of a CNN van and rammed it with a tank. Now, that suggests they may have something to hide. 
WEINER:   Let me tell you something, you know, it was very difficult and sometimes it was necessary to keep the media out in Afghanistan. In zones of war, when you're trying to get terrorists, house by house, and they're getting them, hundreds of them every day, including the guy who was responsible for the Passover massacre, they caught in these sweeps, it ain't pretty. You know, sometimes...  
CARLSON:   Wait, you're not answering my question. Comparing Israel to the United States is not a helpful line of argument. My question is why they won't let cameras in. 
WEINER:   This might be difficult for you to understand. Sometimes strong language, firm negotiations doesn't work. Sometimes you got to go get the guys who are killing your people before they do. 
ZOGBY:   And you shoot American journalists, congressman? 
WEINER:   Sometimes it is not pretty business. And I'm sorry, sometimes it's not pretty in Afghanistan. I know it wasn't pretty when 2,000 of my neighbors in the United States were attacked by terrorists. 
ZOGBY:   You are an American citizen and an American congressman and you are defending the shooting of American citizens and journalists? Ridiculous. 
WEINER:   Here's what I'm defending. I'm defending the right of a country to defend itself. 
ZOGBY:   Against your own citizens? 
WEINER:   And excuse me, if someone at CNN gets their hair ruffled or their makeup a little smudged. The first and foremost... 
CARLSON:   You ought to be ashamed of yourself, congressman. 
WEINER:   First and foremost they have to defend. You know, it's very interesting. Are you concerned about people that are sitting in hospitals right now with shrapnel... 
CARLSON:   We're talking about journalists now who have been shot and the fact that you're apologizing for shooting them. 
WEINER:   You know what I think? I think that's a secondary concern to stopping the next Passover massacre from happening. 
BEGALA:   Let me get back to this question of Arafat, though, right? An organization affiliated with him took credit and boasted about the slaughter today. Do you think Arafat approved that attack? 
ZOGBY:   I don't. 
BEGALA:   Why didn't he stop it, then? 
ZOGBY:   I don't think he was able to stop it.  
BEGALA:   Why the hell should he be a commander of a state, then? 
ZOGBY:   I will tell you why. Because ever since Ariel Sharon was elected, he was elected to do one job: Delegitimatize, demonize, weaken Arafat, destroy police headquarters all over the country, as they have systematically been doing with helicopter gunship attacks for the last almost year, and then finally do what he's doing right now. This man has lost control precisely because the infrastructure of control has been destroyed systematically.    If you want -- if you want to -- just wait, congressman, we listened to you and I was not impressed. But I want to just go on and suggest to you that the fact is that we have enemies at war, and America has a leadership role. 
WEINER:   No, we have one friend at war with an enemy. 
ZOGBY:   And we have friends in that region, in Jordan and in Egypt and in Saudi Arabia who are asking...    ... us to help make peace, because Ariel Sharon is undercutting all of the infrastructure of peace that was erected over the last two decades. And it is dangerous for America to let this fail. So we have enemies at war. Ariel Sharon has committed massacres and has committed atrocities against Arabs, and Arabs don't like him. And you know what, Israelis don't like Yasser Arafat, but you know what? They have to make peace, and America is the only country in the world that can bring them together, and I believe the American people want Colin Powell to succeed. 
BEGALA:   ... and when we come back, we'll have a whole lot more. You are not going to miss a minute of this debate. So please stay with us. And then we're going to turn to what we like to call "Round 6," which is still to come up, but up next, more on the crisis in the Middle East. What should we do, what can we do? And we'll put that question to our guests next.
