NOVAK:   Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you from the George Washington University in Foggy Bottom, D.C. The Bill of Rights forbids Congress from establishing a national religion. But left wingers seem to think it was really designed to keep religious people out of government and away from federal money that can help poor people. In the CROSSFIRE to debate god and government are the Reverend Barry Lynn of Americans United for Separation of Church and State. And from Lynchburg, Virginia, the chancellor of Liberty University, the Reverend Jerry Falwell. 
BEGALA:   Thank you both for joining us. Reverend Falwell, let me start with you first. Thank you for coming out on a bitter cold night down there in Lynchburg. Thanks for joining us. 
FALWELL:   Surely. 
BEGALA:   The question of god and government arose in a very pronounced way today. Our president sought to nominate for the AIDS commission a man by the name of Thacker. A graduate of Bob Jones University, an employee -- former employee of Bob Jones University. The same university he went to appeal the radical right to defeat John McCain. Mr. Thacker had said, among other things, about AIDS, to serve on the AIDS commission, that AIDS is a gay plague. Is that your view? 
FALWELL:   Well, I don't know Mr. Thacker, and I don't have any idea whether he is qualified or not qualified to be on the commission. But I have an idea that a little bit of this is Christian bashing, because I did got to his Web site. He did say that homosexuality is sin. Well every Christian believes that. And he did say that the best approach to delivering a nation from AIDS is abstinence. And the president, Mr. Bush, believes that. And whether that's heterosexuals who are not married to each other, or gays and lesbians, et cetera. And so I'm not sure Mr. Thacker is all that much off the beam. But Christian bashing is politically correct, and you are the best at it, Paul, that I've met yet. 
BEGALA:   Well, of course, Reverend, I don't bash Christians. I am a Christian; a practicing one at that. And I resent that implication... 
FALWELL:   Well I heard you say a moment ago that the radical right... 
BEGALA:   The radical right? That's what you are. 
FALWELL:   You said that a moment ago -- you referred to evangelical Christians as the radical right. There are 80 million Christians in this country who have trusted Jesus Christ through his death burial resurrection to be born again. And if they're all radicals, then Billy Graham is a radical, and millions of others are. And I don't buy that and I don't accept the word "radical." 
BEGALA:   Do you believe that AIDS is a gay plague? Just answer the question. Is it a gay plague? 
FALWELL:   No, it is not. 
NOVAK:   I think he answered. 
FALWELL:   I think that all of the sexually transmitted diseases, syphilis and gonorrhea and so forth and so on, could be avoided by abstinence. That is, no sex outside of marriage except between a man and a woman. And that's god's plan, that's not a very difficult thing to follow. 
NOVAK:   The other big news today, Barry Lynn, which I gather has excited you and your cohort, is that the government is part of the faith-based initiative. The first time it's going to be used, the Department of Housing, facilities for -- to help poor people through faith-based things. And I would like to you read you what Richard Hauser, the general counsel of the department, said to explain it. He said, "We see no reason to exclude religious organizations from participation in these programs if there can be a reasonable mechanism to ensure that a program has no particular religious connotation one way or another. There's no reason you can't have a cathedral upstairs and something that will look like any other room in the basement for counseling." Isn't that reasonable?  
LYNN:   No, because what you miss is that what's happening here is a plan to build for the first time in the history of this country with federal tax dollars churches, synagogues, places of worship that also happen to do some secular service, social service delivery. We've never had -- the people of this country asked to build the church. If you want to build a wing on to your church, Bob, to do some good work for the homeless, you've got to collect it voluntary, not distract it from all of the taxpayers. 
NOVAK:   Well that's what the faith-based initiative is. You know the history as... 
LYNN:   Yes, but... 
NOVAK:   ... well as I do, Barry. 
LYNN:   Absolutely. Probably the worst idea since they tried to take King Kong off of Skull Island and take him to New York. This is a terrible idea. 
NOVAK:   And you know the history was that we didn't want a preference for one religion or another, particularly the Episcopalian Church. This is not -- there's no preference for anybody here. Is there? 
LYNN:   Yes there is. It a preference for those groups that are most politically attractive to this administration who apparently get the money. Remember, in the first round of funding, astonishingly, Reverend Pat Robertson was one of 21 recipients. He got over $500,000. The very man who says that he personally elected President Bush to office. So don't tell me that there is no preference. There's going to be preference to the political friends and cronies of this administration. 
BEGALA:   Let me put you on the spot, then, Reverend Falwell. Many years ago, when Pope John Paul II, the leader of my church, the Catholic Church, came to America, you pointedly refused, declined to meet with him, saying you didn't believe in the   movement. That's your right. Do you want your tax dollars to go to the Catholic Church? Do you want your tax dollars to go to Minister Farrakhan? Do you want your tax dollars... 
FALWELL:   First of all, I've never refused to meet with the pope. I would be very honored to meet with the hope. Secondly, I do believe the president is doing the right thing. The first amendment does not say that government should be hostile toward religion, but rather neutral. And as Bob Novak just said... 
BEGALA:   Will you support your tax dollars go to a mosque? 
FALWELL:   ... no state church. We all agree with that. George W. Bush has said in his December 12 speech in Philadelphia that whether it's the sign of the crescent or the star of David, or the cross, if they are helping people, the fact that they're religious doesn't make them unacceptable. 
BEGALA:   Reverend, I pray to almighty god that you will give me a straight answer on this question. Do you want your tax dollars to go to Minister Farrakhan, to other radical Islamic movements, to the Christian identity movement, which I think you would agree besmirches Christianity in a racist nonreligion, but they claim to be a religion? Do you want your tax dollars to go to so-called religions like that? 
FALWELL:   I don't want $130 million a year to go to planned parenthood that aborted 700,000 babies last year and made $1 billion doing it. But I don't have any control of where our taxes go. But let me say something. 
LYNN:   You know Dr. Falwell, you do -- actually we do have control. 
FALWELL:   I have never applied for one cent from the government. Nor have I ever accepted a penny from federal, state or local government. We run Liberty University with 14,000 students the way we want to run it because we don't take any federal funds and don't plan to. 
NOVAK:   Barry Lynn, let me bring up one more thing. There's a 54-year-old Vietnam combat veteran, Patrick Coven (ph), retired Philadelphia policeman. He has lost his job as an honored guardsman for funerals at a state military cemetery near Trenton, New Jersey. And the reason for the firing is that -- this is what he would say: "This flag is presented on behalf of a grateful nation and the United States Army as a token of appreciation for their loved one's honorable and faithful service." And then he'd hand the flag to the deceased's kin. Now if the next of kin has expressed a religious preference or belief, then instructions continue: "God bless you and this family. And god bless the United States of America." Sure, I want you to be on my side of this. To fire this man for saying that, that's outrageous, isn't it? 
LYNN:   No. The Department of Veterans Affairs said that he was not comporting himself with what were the standards of their own regulations. They said, you have to know for sure that someone wants you to add those words. And he was deciding on his own whether to add them or not. 
FALWELL:   That's not true, Barry. 
LYNN:   So this has nothing to do -- but now let me go back to other question about Jerry. Jerry Falwell, you are always prepared to tell us everything. What books to read, what we ought to watch on television, what religion we ought to be. 
FALWELL:   I've never told you what books to read. I wish you would read the bible. You wouldn't be a liberal. 
LYNN:   But why is it that you, who say you won't accept any dime from the federal government, why don't you tell all religious groups they'd be better off just saying no to government funding of religion? At least to the building of cathedrals with it. Why can't you tell them that? 
FALWELL:   Well, first of all, I don't believe the federal funds have built any cathedrals, and neither do you. That's all a red herring and you know it. 
LYNN:   Not in the last 200 years. 
NOVAK:   Let him answer you. 
FALWELL:   But I do believe it is all right for the Salvation Army, for any groups religious who are feeding the poor and getting homeless off the street in this cold weather. The fact that they happen to be people of faith doesn't make them reprehensible. You're an ACLU former staff member and you learned how to be anti-religious with them. And now you help Americans United for Separation of Church and State. And you get up in the morning... 
LYNN:   Thank you for my history, but I don't think people want to hear that. They'd like to hear about this issue. 
FALWELL:   ... thinking, what can I do to hurt people of faith in this country? And you have Reverend on your name, and you know and I know you've never pastored a church in your life. 
LYNN:   I have. And, as a matter of fact, I would be happy to come down and preach... 
FALWELL:   What's the location of that church? 
LYNN:   I would like to preach... 
FALWELL:   What's the name and location of the church you pastored? It certainly has a name. 
LYNN:     Congregational Church in New Hampshire. How about that? Why don't you invite me down... 
FALWELL:   What's the name of the church, and what's the location? 
LYNN:   Why don't you invite me down -- pleased invite me down to your church and I will preach the gospel of Jesus Christ at every service on any Sunday you choose. Will you do that? Will do you that? I didn't think so. 
FALWELL:   I wouldn't trust you to preach the gospel out on the corner. 
LYNN:   I didn't think so. 
BEGALA:   Reverend Jerry Falwell, thank you for joining us from Lynchburg on a cold night. Thank you Reverend Barry Lynn as well. 
FALWELL:   God bless you all. 
BEGALA:   God bless you all? In a little bit, one of our viewers fires back his perfect recipe for getting your own slice of President Bush's new tax cuts. But next, a new group wants to replace the theme song on the TV show "Friends." Their demo tape is our picture of the day. Stay with us.
