CARVILLE:   Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're coming to you live from the George Washington University in beautiful downtown Washington, D.C. Here on CROSSFIRE we've taken note that CBS television plans to produce a reality show based on the sitcom "The Beverly Hillbillies." Some geniuses think it might be a laugh to plop a family of real hillbillies down in a Beverly Hills mansion and let the cameras roll. But today an ad in some of the nation's largest newspaper asked, How many ways can one TV network get it wrong? The ad blasted CBS for reinforcing the disparaging stereotypes and mocking a group of Americans who have endured poverty, hardships, and inequity. We're going to put this in the CROSSFIRE with our guest, former Georgia Congressman Ben Jones. You remember him as Cooter from the "Dukes of Hazzard" TV series. And with him is "Parade" magazine contributing editor Sandy Kenyon. 
NOVAK:   Let me see if I can get this right, Mr. Cooter Jones. You are upset about the stereotype of hillbillies being perpetuated by CBS, after you did so much perpetuate hillbilly on Cooter on the "Dukes of Hazzard," where you played a not so bright guy, is that right? 
JONES:   You never watched the show. 
NOVAK:   I sure didn't. 
JONES:   It's been a long time ago. So, I know back when everybody wore three-piece suits, right? And no, we weren't portraying stereotypes. It was pretty much of a Southern show created by Southerners, a wonderful piece of Americana. Good guys always won, nobody got hurt, very healthy, positive, ennobling heroes, in fact.  
KENYON:   With all due respect, you had a little guy in a white suit and a big fat cigar named Boss Hogg. Now f he wasn't a stereotype, I don't know what was. 
JONES:   But it was for fun and he always lost and the good guys always won...    No, I'm not so sure about this. Here's what I think. I think that, you know, I could care less. I mean he's a coonass and I'm a redneck. 
CARVILLE:   Damn proud of it. 
JONES:   We're very, very proud of this. 
NOVAK:   What's the difference? 
JONES:   What's the difference? 
CARVILLE:   I'm French and he's Anglo. 
JONES:   That's right. 
CARVILLE:   I eat good food and he eats corn pone or whatever the hell it is. I eat jambalaya. 
JONES:   That's right. That's right. He eats hot food and I'm kind of a Celtic mix of some sort. But at any rate we're both from the South, and the South is that place where it's OK to proper us any way you want to. Reinforce those stereotypes, we don't have any teeth, we don't wear shoes and we're all racist. People are getting sick and tired of it. Now I could care less, but I understand where these people are coming from. What Hollywood is doing is saying basically -- that very provincial place -- that media elite in Hollywood is saying, We're superior. Our culture is superior to your culture and we're going to make fun of you and that's offensive to anybody. 
CARVILLE:   I think we'd all agree that if think said, Why don't we take a family of Hasidic Jews in, say, the Williamsburg section of Brooklyn and stick them in the middle of a small all Anglo Saxon Protestant town somewhere in the Midwest or the South and just see how they adjust, we'd all say this is ridiculous. 
KENYON:   Well, I got to tell you, Jim, though... 
CARVILLE:   I mean, I would certainly be against that. 
KENYON:   Yes, but look I've heard a lot of bald jokes in my time. Are you going to organize the people against baldness? Can I say this about "Joe Millionaire," a show that got 30 percent of the young audience. I got a friend in Arizona named Mike Short (ph), who builds houses. What, is he going to be upset because they make fun of this construction worker, the big lug can't dance? You know, this is an equal opportunity offender here. These folks are on TV. I wouldn't do it. You wouldn't do it. 
CARVILLE:   I wouldn't -- look, I wouldn't, I'm just saying is they want to do this and take these people. I know a lot of them. I worked in Kentucky and eastern Kentucky. These are people that have been shot at and missed and basically you know what and hit most of their lives. And I'm saying is, if we did that to a family of Hasidic Jews or we took a black family -- I want to say it. I want to say it. We took an African-American family and we put them there, we would all be appalled. I'm saying this -- I've got a better idea. I'll support a reality show... 
KENYON:   Everybody is getting humiliated if you wait long enough. These reality shows are the hottest thing going. 
JONES:   You've got a great reality show. 
CARVILLE:   I've got a great reality show. 
JONES:   Listen to this. 
CARVILLE:   I want to go to Hollywood and I want to take these producers and I want to take these writers and stick their arses in a coal mine and let them make a living there for a year. Let them live off $6.30 an hour and let's see how they adjust. And the CBS executives. Let's Moonbeam or whatever the hell his name is drop down into a damn coal mine. 
NOVAK:   When I'm with Mr. Carville I become the advocate of fairness. It's very unusual for me. But I want to give these people who are developing this program a chance to say what they're doing. And let's listen to -- let's see what Dub Cornett, who is the new "Beverly Hillbillies" developer says. He says, "We will accomplish the most if we cast it well with people who respect themselves, but seem the humor in themselves. We will end up with a piece that truly has, God forbid, social commentary and maybe we'll enlighten, that's it not all barefoot hillbillies." What's wrong with that? 
JONES:   We've got the cast. Me and you.    Like trying to figure the tax on our stock dividends and stuff like that. 
NOVAK:   Answer. Answer. What's wrong with that? 
JONES:   Hmm? 
NOVAK:   What's wrong with that? That mission that I just read. 
JONES:   What I said was I don't care. I don't think that the lowest common denominator can ever be reached by these geniuses in Hollywood. It is a vast wasteland. They don't have any taste. It is sleaze. They don't care about the heartland of America. 
KENYON:   Then don't watch it. 
JONES:   I'm not going to watch it. Why would I watch it? 
KENYON:   But there are tens of millions of people who are watching this. 
JONES:   They really want to see reality because they don't have anything else to watch.    Oh, come on. 
CARVILLE:   In all of the creativity out there, and there's a ton of it, and all the people out there, you're telling me they can't think of something to entertain people other than watching poor people -- trying to let poor people try to make fools of themselves or put them in an environment that they're completely ill equipped to deal with?    I can't believe that in a country like this -- and I saw this "Catch Me If You Can," was a very creative movie, Steven Spielberg, all these people, all these geniuses got to be able to figure out a way that they can entertain young people without making fun of people who have had a hard time in life. That's what we're saying. 
KENYON:   Remember back in the day -- all right. But remember this, you had the Ma and Pa Kettle movies back way back then. Bob remembers, probably. The rest of us don't. But the point is that these were real... 
NOVAK:   I kind of had a thing for them, yes. 
KENYON:   You've got to remember "The Beverly Hillbillies"... 
JONES:   I loved "The Beverly Hillbillies."  
CARVILLE:   "The Beverly Hillbillies" always won in the end. "The Beverly Hillbillies" was a mock on Beverly Hills. They were making fun of Beverly Hills. 
KENYON:   But also remember this, like "The Beverly Hillbillies," the rich people here will be made fun of. It's a fish out of water story. 
CARVILLE:   Let me go -- Peter Weir does the best fish out of water movies I've ever seen. He's a completely creative guy. "The Year of Living Dangerously," "Witness." He's done some of the greatest movies I've ever seen. But let me go back. What is wrong with CBS? They're hitting all big-end supporting of the Masters. Supporting this, of a club that doesn't let women in. They're sitting here making fun of hillbillies. Does this network -- can somebody there -- can somebody get this thing right? Or are they just going to sit there digging themselves in one P.R. disaster after another. 
KENYON:   I think actually they've shown a lot of restraint. I think "Fear Factor," you know, the other networks have celebrities making fools of themselves. Everybody... 
JONES:   Those shows are no more about real people or reality than professional wrestling is. Everybody knows that it's a show. If you're going to do a good show go ahead and spend the money, do it right, use talent. 
NOVAK:   I want to ask you a personal question, if I can. You've got beat by Newt Gingrich in Georgia. You just got beat... 
JONES:   Beat me like a rented mule. 
NOVAK:   And you got beat by some little Republican in Virginia. And are you giving up politics now? 
JONES:   Well, I've -- I never did quite master it anyway, did I? Let's look at it this way. I had to leave politics because of illness, Bob. The voters got sick of me. 
NOVAK:   Cooter Jones, thank you very much. 
JONES:   Thank you. 
NOVAK:   Sandy Kenyon, thank you. Next, the CROSSFIRE version of reality TV, "Fireback." A defender of hillbillies everywhere has already fired off his comments.
