<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_03_28_208210</id>
	<title>Best Way To Land Entry-Level Job?</title>
	<author>timothy</author>
	<datestamp>1269766500000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>chemicaldave writes <i>"I'm graduating this May and have been seeking a programming position for months. It seems that the biggest hurdle to landing an interview is getting past the doorman that is HR. After reading <a href="http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2010/02/the-nonprogramming-programmer.html">this entry from Coding Horror</a> describing the lack of programming candidates who can actually program, I can't help but scratch my head. <i>I</i> can program! (See how I put that link in?) If I can't land an interview, then even a short online evaluation of my coding skills would suffice. I just want a chance to prove myself. Alas, sending resumes to companies has rarely led to anything but an auto-confirmation email of my submission. I understand that sending resumes online is not the best method to landing an interview, but I come from a small rural school so job fairs rarely offer anything more than IT support positions let alone a programming position. It seems to me that developers are always looking for talented young programmers. We're out here looking for you too. Am I missing something?"</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>chemicaldave writes " I 'm graduating this May and have been seeking a programming position for months .
It seems that the biggest hurdle to landing an interview is getting past the doorman that is HR .
After reading this entry from Coding Horror describing the lack of programming candidates who can actually program , I ca n't help but scratch my head .
I can program !
( See how I put that link in ?
) If I ca n't land an interview , then even a short online evaluation of my coding skills would suffice .
I just want a chance to prove myself .
Alas , sending resumes to companies has rarely led to anything but an auto-confirmation email of my submission .
I understand that sending resumes online is not the best method to landing an interview , but I come from a small rural school so job fairs rarely offer anything more than IT support positions let alone a programming position .
It seems to me that developers are always looking for talented young programmers .
We 're out here looking for you too .
Am I missing something ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>chemicaldave writes "I'm graduating this May and have been seeking a programming position for months.
It seems that the biggest hurdle to landing an interview is getting past the doorman that is HR.
After reading this entry from Coding Horror describing the lack of programming candidates who can actually program, I can't help but scratch my head.
I can program!
(See how I put that link in?
) If I can't land an interview, then even a short online evaluation of my coding skills would suffice.
I just want a chance to prove myself.
Alas, sending resumes to companies has rarely led to anything but an auto-confirmation email of my submission.
I understand that sending resumes online is not the best method to landing an interview, but I come from a small rural school so job fairs rarely offer anything more than IT support positions let alone a programming position.
It seems to me that developers are always looking for talented young programmers.
We're out here looking for you too.
Am I missing something?
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651294</id>
	<title>Re:Apply</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269777660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This guys is an idiot and does not know what he is talking about.</p><p>1) Being fresh out of school does not mean that you cannot get a job.  When we go hiring for an entry level position, I expect to see resumes with school projects, scrapped together references, and a bunch of club memberships.  I don't expect lists of professional experience.</p><p>We hire entry-level because we have entry-level work to do and we hire people that are self-motivated, can communicate, and score well on our little programming quiz.</p><p>2) You will not be competing for a job with the parent poster.  If I have an entry-level position to fill then I would throw his resume in the circular file 1 nano-second after I saw it.  Why?  Because he has 20 years of experience.  Someone like that is only applying to the position because they got laid off and need work to put food on the table.  They will sit in the spot and continue looking for a job that meets their expectations and will quit the second they find a new spot.  It takes 3-6 months of training for *any* developer before they have learned a code base well enough to be working at a high efficiently.  Having this guy study our code base for 3 months then quit would be a total was of my budget.  I'd rather have you, the guy that will stick around long enough to contribute.</p><p>3) Entry level positions are for learning.  I expect that I will have to teach entry-level people just about everything.  The best guy that I ever hired didn't even know our main programming language when I hired him as an intern.  Skills are much easier to teach to a smart, motivated, interested person than motivation and interest are pushed on some know-it-all with "20 years experience".</p><p>Here is how you get hired.</p><p>1) Networking is the best way.  70-90\% of open positions are filled internally with people that knew about the position.  The more people that you know the more often you will find out about jobs.  Networks take time to build up so remember this when you do get a job and start working.</p><p>2) Resume spam.  Don't worry about the automated responses.  If you want a job with a big company, just start send your resume to every one that you might possibly care for.  Don't just send out 1 wave, send out a 2nd wave a month or 2 later.  Different HR guys will see it and might send it somewhere else.  Also positions are always changing so the more often you send it in the more often you will be on the top of the pile.</p><p>You have to wait.  Send out 100 resumes and 3-6 weeks later you might get 3 interview requests.  You are shooting to turn one of those into a job offer.</p><p>3) Don't forget start-ups.  Big companies are easy to find in the phone book but hit your chamber of commerce and send your resume to all the local software houses.  Working for a start-up is one of the best educations you can get.  And working for one when you are fresh out is ideal b/c you don't have a mortgage, family, and kids to support.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This guys is an idiot and does not know what he is talking about.1 ) Being fresh out of school does not mean that you can not get a job .
When we go hiring for an entry level position , I expect to see resumes with school projects , scrapped together references , and a bunch of club memberships .
I do n't expect lists of professional experience.We hire entry-level because we have entry-level work to do and we hire people that are self-motivated , can communicate , and score well on our little programming quiz.2 ) You will not be competing for a job with the parent poster .
If I have an entry-level position to fill then I would throw his resume in the circular file 1 nano-second after I saw it .
Why ? Because he has 20 years of experience .
Someone like that is only applying to the position because they got laid off and need work to put food on the table .
They will sit in the spot and continue looking for a job that meets their expectations and will quit the second they find a new spot .
It takes 3-6 months of training for * any * developer before they have learned a code base well enough to be working at a high efficiently .
Having this guy study our code base for 3 months then quit would be a total was of my budget .
I 'd rather have you , the guy that will stick around long enough to contribute.3 ) Entry level positions are for learning .
I expect that I will have to teach entry-level people just about everything .
The best guy that I ever hired did n't even know our main programming language when I hired him as an intern .
Skills are much easier to teach to a smart , motivated , interested person than motivation and interest are pushed on some know-it-all with " 20 years experience " .Here is how you get hired.1 ) Networking is the best way .
70-90 \ % of open positions are filled internally with people that knew about the position .
The more people that you know the more often you will find out about jobs .
Networks take time to build up so remember this when you do get a job and start working.2 ) Resume spam .
Do n't worry about the automated responses .
If you want a job with a big company , just start send your resume to every one that you might possibly care for .
Do n't just send out 1 wave , send out a 2nd wave a month or 2 later .
Different HR guys will see it and might send it somewhere else .
Also positions are always changing so the more often you send it in the more often you will be on the top of the pile.You have to wait .
Send out 100 resumes and 3-6 weeks later you might get 3 interview requests .
You are shooting to turn one of those into a job offer.3 ) Do n't forget start-ups .
Big companies are easy to find in the phone book but hit your chamber of commerce and send your resume to all the local software houses .
Working for a start-up is one of the best educations you can get .
And working for one when you are fresh out is ideal b/c you do n't have a mortgage , family , and kids to support .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This guys is an idiot and does not know what he is talking about.1) Being fresh out of school does not mean that you cannot get a job.
When we go hiring for an entry level position, I expect to see resumes with school projects, scrapped together references, and a bunch of club memberships.
I don't expect lists of professional experience.We hire entry-level because we have entry-level work to do and we hire people that are self-motivated, can communicate, and score well on our little programming quiz.2) You will not be competing for a job with the parent poster.
If I have an entry-level position to fill then I would throw his resume in the circular file 1 nano-second after I saw it.
Why?  Because he has 20 years of experience.
Someone like that is only applying to the position because they got laid off and need work to put food on the table.
They will sit in the spot and continue looking for a job that meets their expectations and will quit the second they find a new spot.
It takes 3-6 months of training for *any* developer before they have learned a code base well enough to be working at a high efficiently.
Having this guy study our code base for 3 months then quit would be a total was of my budget.
I'd rather have you, the guy that will stick around long enough to contribute.3) Entry level positions are for learning.
I expect that I will have to teach entry-level people just about everything.
The best guy that I ever hired didn't even know our main programming language when I hired him as an intern.
Skills are much easier to teach to a smart, motivated, interested person than motivation and interest are pushed on some know-it-all with "20 years experience".Here is how you get hired.1) Networking is the best way.
70-90\% of open positions are filled internally with people that knew about the position.
The more people that you know the more often you will find out about jobs.
Networks take time to build up so remember this when you do get a job and start working.2) Resume spam.
Don't worry about the automated responses.
If you want a job with a big company, just start send your resume to every one that you might possibly care for.
Don't just send out 1 wave, send out a 2nd wave a month or 2 later.
Different HR guys will see it and might send it somewhere else.
Also positions are always changing so the more often you send it in the more often you will be on the top of the pile.You have to wait.
Send out 100 resumes and 3-6 weeks later you might get 3 interview requests.
You are shooting to turn one of those into a job offer.3) Don't forget start-ups.
Big companies are easy to find in the phone book but hit your chamber of commerce and send your resume to all the local software houses.
Working for a start-up is one of the best educations you can get.
And working for one when you are fresh out is ideal b/c you don't have a mortgage, family, and kids to support.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650362</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650246</id>
	<title>Manners are somewhat lacking</title>
	<author>hedwards</author>
	<datestamp>1269770460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Things have changed a lot, you can pretty much expect that most of the time you're just going to get an auto reply. If you do manage to get an interview they may very well think that silence is the same thing as telling somebody they didn't get the job.<br> <br>

Probably the best thing you can do is while searching try and get involved in some open source project. It's probably not going to put food on the table, but it will likely land you access to opportunities that you might not otherwise get. And give you something to put on your CV while maintaining your skills.<br> <br>

But just realize that the manners of people doing the hiring are typically lousy and remember that if you get turned down that you're likely not interested in working for a company that represents itself in such an embarrassing way.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Things have changed a lot , you can pretty much expect that most of the time you 're just going to get an auto reply .
If you do manage to get an interview they may very well think that silence is the same thing as telling somebody they did n't get the job .
Probably the best thing you can do is while searching try and get involved in some open source project .
It 's probably not going to put food on the table , but it will likely land you access to opportunities that you might not otherwise get .
And give you something to put on your CV while maintaining your skills .
But just realize that the manners of people doing the hiring are typically lousy and remember that if you get turned down that you 're likely not interested in working for a company that represents itself in such an embarrassing way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Things have changed a lot, you can pretty much expect that most of the time you're just going to get an auto reply.
If you do manage to get an interview they may very well think that silence is the same thing as telling somebody they didn't get the job.
Probably the best thing you can do is while searching try and get involved in some open source project.
It's probably not going to put food on the table, but it will likely land you access to opportunities that you might not otherwise get.
And give you something to put on your CV while maintaining your skills.
But just realize that the manners of people doing the hiring are typically lousy and remember that if you get turned down that you're likely not interested in working for a company that represents itself in such an embarrassing way.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31679292</id>
	<title>Re:To that I'll add</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269951300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Literature is not a bullshit degree. Like any field, you have to separate the wheat from the chaff. And yes, of course it doesn't give you job skills after leaving college. BUT if it is a passion, and one makes the personal choice to pursue it, who isn't to say that is a value equally significant as the money earned through another degree.</p><p>Plus, the business world has really, really, shitty writing. If someone got a literature degree, was smart, and wanted to go into business, they would at least have that useful skill. And of course businesses say they want flexible and creative employees (and sometimes its even true!), which is what the liberal arts (if taken seriously) is supposed to do.</p><p>I don't see how one could declare the study of literature bullshit without, as a natural consequence, classifying the entire art of writing itself as bullshit. Again, separate the wheat from the chaff. Is Shakespeare bullshit? Are the writers of Battlestar Galactica, or The Sopranos (Harvard Eng. majors, I think) bullshit? James Joyce? Samuel Beckett, Homer? I doubt that's what you meant, and undoubtedly as a teacher yourself your view are more nuanced, but there's already such a know-nothing, ignorant, biased, head-in-sand view of the humanities on slashdot that I had to reply.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Literature is not a bullshit degree .
Like any field , you have to separate the wheat from the chaff .
And yes , of course it does n't give you job skills after leaving college .
BUT if it is a passion , and one makes the personal choice to pursue it , who is n't to say that is a value equally significant as the money earned through another degree.Plus , the business world has really , really , shitty writing .
If someone got a literature degree , was smart , and wanted to go into business , they would at least have that useful skill .
And of course businesses say they want flexible and creative employees ( and sometimes its even true !
) , which is what the liberal arts ( if taken seriously ) is supposed to do.I do n't see how one could declare the study of literature bullshit without , as a natural consequence , classifying the entire art of writing itself as bullshit .
Again , separate the wheat from the chaff .
Is Shakespeare bullshit ?
Are the writers of Battlestar Galactica , or The Sopranos ( Harvard Eng .
majors , I think ) bullshit ?
James Joyce ?
Samuel Beckett , Homer ?
I doubt that 's what you meant , and undoubtedly as a teacher yourself your view are more nuanced , but there 's already such a know-nothing , ignorant , biased , head-in-sand view of the humanities on slashdot that I had to reply .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Literature is not a bullshit degree.
Like any field, you have to separate the wheat from the chaff.
And yes, of course it doesn't give you job skills after leaving college.
BUT if it is a passion, and one makes the personal choice to pursue it, who isn't to say that is a value equally significant as the money earned through another degree.Plus, the business world has really, really, shitty writing.
If someone got a literature degree, was smart, and wanted to go into business, they would at least have that useful skill.
And of course businesses say they want flexible and creative employees (and sometimes its even true!
), which is what the liberal arts (if taken seriously) is supposed to do.I don't see how one could declare the study of literature bullshit without, as a natural consequence, classifying the entire art of writing itself as bullshit.
Again, separate the wheat from the chaff.
Is Shakespeare bullshit?
Are the writers of Battlestar Galactica, or The Sopranos (Harvard Eng.
majors, I think) bullshit?
James Joyce?
Samuel Beckett, Homer?
I doubt that's what you meant, and undoubtedly as a teacher yourself your view are more nuanced, but there's already such a know-nothing, ignorant, biased, head-in-sand view of the humanities on slashdot that I had to reply.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652102</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651554</id>
	<title>Re:It is not a great time</title>
	<author>mcshicks</author>
	<datestamp>1269779640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I agree with the comment on the general state of the job market and the internship recommendation is a good suggestion.  Working in SW Test/QA (at any level) is another suggestion as these positions have less competition.  Even better, try and get an internship testing any SW product.  If you can get your foot in the door and demonstrate you know what you are doing, and are flexible in the work you will do you should not have a problem getting a permanent position.  If you work as an intern in test and you have the ability find and to point out source level errors in other peoples code quickly it will probably get noticed.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree with the comment on the general state of the job market and the internship recommendation is a good suggestion .
Working in SW Test/QA ( at any level ) is another suggestion as these positions have less competition .
Even better , try and get an internship testing any SW product .
If you can get your foot in the door and demonstrate you know what you are doing , and are flexible in the work you will do you should not have a problem getting a permanent position .
If you work as an intern in test and you have the ability find and to point out source level errors in other peoples code quickly it will probably get noticed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree with the comment on the general state of the job market and the internship recommendation is a good suggestion.
Working in SW Test/QA (at any level) is another suggestion as these positions have less competition.
Even better, try and get an internship testing any SW product.
If you can get your foot in the door and demonstrate you know what you are doing, and are flexible in the work you will do you should not have a problem getting a permanent position.
If you work as an intern in test and you have the ability find and to point out source level errors in other peoples code quickly it will probably get noticed.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650316</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31656422</id>
	<title>Re:Apply</title>
	<author>hughperkins</author>
	<datestamp>1269874380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You could work on some opensource projects whilst you're at school.</p><p>Working on opensource projects gives you a few advantages:<br>- you have something to talk about at interview<br>- you'll have actually learned to program<br>- you've shown you have initiative, and creativity: not everyone can figure out a way of contributing to some opensource project out there<br>- if you work on someone else's project, you've shown you can get on with others, and contribute constructively<br>- you've shown you enjoy development enough to do it on your own time.  That is not true for a huge proportion of people out there looking for jobs</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You could work on some opensource projects whilst you 're at school.Working on opensource projects gives you a few advantages : - you have something to talk about at interview- you 'll have actually learned to program- you 've shown you have initiative , and creativity : not everyone can figure out a way of contributing to some opensource project out there- if you work on someone else 's project , you 've shown you can get on with others , and contribute constructively- you 've shown you enjoy development enough to do it on your own time .
That is not true for a huge proportion of people out there looking for jobs</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You could work on some opensource projects whilst you're at school.Working on opensource projects gives you a few advantages:- you have something to talk about at interview- you'll have actually learned to program- you've shown you have initiative, and creativity: not everyone can figure out a way of contributing to some opensource project out there- if you work on someone else's project, you've shown you can get on with others, and contribute constructively- you've shown you enjoy development enough to do it on your own time.
That is not true for a huge proportion of people out there looking for jobs</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650210</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651894</id>
	<title>Re:Apply</title>
	<author>funkatron</author>
	<datestamp>1269783000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Regardless of everything I've said above, be it right or wrong, you have one serious disadvantage. You're looking for a job at the worst possible time. For the last 10-12 years schools have been pumping out 'developers' who are just random people that signed up for CS because they thought they could get rich quick. Now you're coming into the job market, 15 years too late, with an education that was out of date before you graduated from highschool, during an economy were all the other mediocre but far more experienced 'developers' out there are looking for jobs as well.</p></div><p>As a CS graduate in the UK, I wouldn't entirely agree with this. Yes, the economy is a little bit shit right now but technology jobs are still out there. In fact, I recently visited my uni for a few drinks and the students in tech related subjects seemed quite a bit less worried than everyone else. In my own experience, the biggest obstacle to getting a job was that I believed the newspapers and got demotivated. As soon as I started looking, I started getting interviews.</p><p>I cant compare the situation to previous years because I wasn't looking then but the job market is hardly terrible for developers. Obviously, the situation will vary depending on where you are.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Regardless of everything I 've said above , be it right or wrong , you have one serious disadvantage .
You 're looking for a job at the worst possible time .
For the last 10-12 years schools have been pumping out 'developers ' who are just random people that signed up for CS because they thought they could get rich quick .
Now you 're coming into the job market , 15 years too late , with an education that was out of date before you graduated from highschool , during an economy were all the other mediocre but far more experienced 'developers ' out there are looking for jobs as well.As a CS graduate in the UK , I would n't entirely agree with this .
Yes , the economy is a little bit shit right now but technology jobs are still out there .
In fact , I recently visited my uni for a few drinks and the students in tech related subjects seemed quite a bit less worried than everyone else .
In my own experience , the biggest obstacle to getting a job was that I believed the newspapers and got demotivated .
As soon as I started looking , I started getting interviews.I cant compare the situation to previous years because I was n't looking then but the job market is hardly terrible for developers .
Obviously , the situation will vary depending on where you are .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Regardless of everything I've said above, be it right or wrong, you have one serious disadvantage.
You're looking for a job at the worst possible time.
For the last 10-12 years schools have been pumping out 'developers' who are just random people that signed up for CS because they thought they could get rich quick.
Now you're coming into the job market, 15 years too late, with an education that was out of date before you graduated from highschool, during an economy were all the other mediocre but far more experienced 'developers' out there are looking for jobs as well.As a CS graduate in the UK, I wouldn't entirely agree with this.
Yes, the economy is a little bit shit right now but technology jobs are still out there.
In fact, I recently visited my uni for a few drinks and the students in tech related subjects seemed quite a bit less worried than everyone else.
In my own experience, the biggest obstacle to getting a job was that I believed the newspapers and got demotivated.
As soon as I started looking, I started getting interviews.I cant compare the situation to previous years because I wasn't looking then but the job market is hardly terrible for developers.
Obviously, the situation will vary depending on where you are.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650362</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31659914</id>
	<title>Re:Apply</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269889320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My suggestion is to go back to school and study animal husbandry.<br>Because in a few years when all the crap from congress comes home to roost, we'll see a bunch of people out of work, but if you can grow goats, you'll have something to trade...or eat...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My suggestion is to go back to school and study animal husbandry.Because in a few years when all the crap from congress comes home to roost , we 'll see a bunch of people out of work , but if you can grow goats , you 'll have something to trade...or eat.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My suggestion is to go back to school and study animal husbandry.Because in a few years when all the crap from congress comes home to roost, we'll see a bunch of people out of work, but if you can grow goats, you'll have something to trade...or eat...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650210</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650670</id>
	<title>well</title>
	<author>nomadic</author>
	<datestamp>1269773460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Probably out of luck.  I'm not sure the job market will ever recover, hopefully you have family you can rely on.  In the meantime write up your own software and maybe you'll get lucky and write something people will buy.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Probably out of luck .
I 'm not sure the job market will ever recover , hopefully you have family you can rely on .
In the meantime write up your own software and maybe you 'll get lucky and write something people will buy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Probably out of luck.
I'm not sure the job market will ever recover, hopefully you have family you can rely on.
In the meantime write up your own software and maybe you'll get lucky and write something people will buy.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31657900</id>
	<title>I am the one who will hire you</title>
	<author>wmelnick</author>
	<datestamp>1269880380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I am a computer professional and manager for the last 25 years or so.  I do hire entry level coders on occasion, and when I do they often get the job that you are looking for.  With that said, let me tell you what the people I have hired have done to impress me.
<p>

(1) Show me not only your code but your interface.  I need to know that you can look at a problem and determine what information you need and that you can present the results in a usable manner.  It does not have to look great - that is why we have designers.  They will made the info look good.
</p><p>

(2) Explain to me the real world problem that you solved with this code.  I do not care that you can move discs from one peg to another in size order.  I do care that you figured out that I was spending too much time verifying that the home page on my 15 web servers returned exactly the same code.
</p><p>

(3) Use full sentences.  In all communications, be they on paper or in conversation with me.  I do not ever want to see an emoticon or "u r" in a business communication.
</p><p>

(4) Turn your cell phone off during the interview.  If there is a true potential for an emergency, explain it to me when the interview starts and I will make allowances, but during the interview I expect to have your full attention.
</p><p>

(5) DO NOT come to your interview with me in a suit.  I showed up for my last interview in a t-shirt and jeans.  I am now putting together a new department at that company.  How did I know? I asked ahead of time.  "What is the dress code there?  Less than business casual?  Would it be acceptable for me to dress that way for the interview?  Not only acceptable but appreciated, great!"
</p><p>

(6) This is the really important one...  Tell me about your home computers, what operating systems you have running, how you use them and what cool projects you experimented with lately.  You have a Linux server and just set up a UPnP server to serve your home media?  That is fantastic!  On that alone I might hire you if the rest is borderline.  That proves to me that you not only know how to learn, but you are excited to do so.
</p><p>

Good Luck!<br>
Warren</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I am a computer professional and manager for the last 25 years or so .
I do hire entry level coders on occasion , and when I do they often get the job that you are looking for .
With that said , let me tell you what the people I have hired have done to impress me .
( 1 ) Show me not only your code but your interface .
I need to know that you can look at a problem and determine what information you need and that you can present the results in a usable manner .
It does not have to look great - that is why we have designers .
They will made the info look good .
( 2 ) Explain to me the real world problem that you solved with this code .
I do not care that you can move discs from one peg to another in size order .
I do care that you figured out that I was spending too much time verifying that the home page on my 15 web servers returned exactly the same code .
( 3 ) Use full sentences .
In all communications , be they on paper or in conversation with me .
I do not ever want to see an emoticon or " u r " in a business communication .
( 4 ) Turn your cell phone off during the interview .
If there is a true potential for an emergency , explain it to me when the interview starts and I will make allowances , but during the interview I expect to have your full attention .
( 5 ) DO NOT come to your interview with me in a suit .
I showed up for my last interview in a t-shirt and jeans .
I am now putting together a new department at that company .
How did I know ?
I asked ahead of time .
" What is the dress code there ?
Less than business casual ?
Would it be acceptable for me to dress that way for the interview ?
Not only acceptable but appreciated , great !
" ( 6 ) This is the really important one... Tell me about your home computers , what operating systems you have running , how you use them and what cool projects you experimented with lately .
You have a Linux server and just set up a UPnP server to serve your home media ?
That is fantastic !
On that alone I might hire you if the rest is borderline .
That proves to me that you not only know how to learn , but you are excited to do so .
Good Luck !
Warren</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am a computer professional and manager for the last 25 years or so.
I do hire entry level coders on occasion, and when I do they often get the job that you are looking for.
With that said, let me tell you what the people I have hired have done to impress me.
(1) Show me not only your code but your interface.
I need to know that you can look at a problem and determine what information you need and that you can present the results in a usable manner.
It does not have to look great - that is why we have designers.
They will made the info look good.
(2) Explain to me the real world problem that you solved with this code.
I do not care that you can move discs from one peg to another in size order.
I do care that you figured out that I was spending too much time verifying that the home page on my 15 web servers returned exactly the same code.
(3) Use full sentences.
In all communications, be they on paper or in conversation with me.
I do not ever want to see an emoticon or "u r" in a business communication.
(4) Turn your cell phone off during the interview.
If there is a true potential for an emergency, explain it to me when the interview starts and I will make allowances, but during the interview I expect to have your full attention.
(5) DO NOT come to your interview with me in a suit.
I showed up for my last interview in a t-shirt and jeans.
I am now putting together a new department at that company.
How did I know?
I asked ahead of time.
"What is the dress code there?
Less than business casual?
Would it be acceptable for me to dress that way for the interview?
Not only acceptable but appreciated, great!
"


(6) This is the really important one...  Tell me about your home computers, what operating systems you have running, how you use them and what cool projects you experimented with lately.
You have a Linux server and just set up a UPnP server to serve your home media?
That is fantastic!
On that alone I might hire you if the rest is borderline.
That proves to me that you not only know how to learn, but you are excited to do so.
Good Luck!
Warren</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31662382</id>
	<title>Free software and networking</title>
	<author>drew\_eckhardt</author>
	<datestamp>1269857580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>1.  Contribute to a free software project which interests you.</p><p>This will allow potential employers to verify that you can program before bringing you in for an interview, and hopefully you'll learn something about writing maintainable code so your first paying employer doesn't bear the burden of getting you over those hurdles.</p><p>2.  Network.</p><p>Maybe a local group of geeks gather weekly for beer.  Maybe there's an interesting user's group.  Meeting people at such groups make access to un-advertised positions or to some one in engineering (not HR) that can be intelligent about who to bring in for interviews.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>1 .
Contribute to a free software project which interests you.This will allow potential employers to verify that you can program before bringing you in for an interview , and hopefully you 'll learn something about writing maintainable code so your first paying employer does n't bear the burden of getting you over those hurdles.2 .
Network.Maybe a local group of geeks gather weekly for beer .
Maybe there 's an interesting user 's group .
Meeting people at such groups make access to un-advertised positions or to some one in engineering ( not HR ) that can be intelligent about who to bring in for interviews .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>1.
Contribute to a free software project which interests you.This will allow potential employers to verify that you can program before bringing you in for an interview, and hopefully you'll learn something about writing maintainable code so your first paying employer doesn't bear the burden of getting you over those hurdles.2.
Network.Maybe a local group of geeks gather weekly for beer.
Maybe there's an interesting user's group.
Meeting people at such groups make access to un-advertised positions or to some one in engineering (not HR) that can be intelligent about who to bring in for interviews.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650422</id>
	<title>Build a portfolio of relevant code</title>
	<author>composer777</author>
	<datestamp>1269771660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>1.  Pick a specialty or two.  Maybe you're interested in computer graphics, great, learn OpenGL, or maybe you want to work with databases, fine, learn the API's.<br>2.  Do one or more of the following:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; a.  Write a few small, relevant, open-source programs that you can show to prospective employers.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; b.  Work on a few relevant open-source projects to help build networking/contacts.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; c.  Do an internship and write a few small relevant programs that you can discuss during the interview, this is also good for networking<br>3.  Have a backup plan if you can't get a job.  Try to pick a specialty where, if worst comes to worse, you can sell the applications you write, maybe even starting your own business.</p><p>The above is the catch 22, no one wants to train people, especially in this economy.  I got a job out of school because I learned the relevant knowledge (OpenGL) to my field, and had a portfolio of applications that I wrote outside of school.  The kind of guy that is most likely to get a job is the guy that can laugh at job offers because he knows that he has all the skills necessary to write the application on his own and keep the profits for himself.  Looking back on it, I think my biggest mistake was not pursuing my own business more seriously.  You will always make more money if you can cut out the middle man (your employer), and run your own business.  Sure, you take risks, but in this economy, EVERYTHING is risky, and it's also risky to be an expendable employee, with debt, in a low-paying entry level job.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>1 .
Pick a specialty or two .
Maybe you 're interested in computer graphics , great , learn OpenGL , or maybe you want to work with databases , fine , learn the API 's.2 .
Do one or more of the following :         a. Write a few small , relevant , open-source programs that you can show to prospective employers .
        b. Work on a few relevant open-source projects to help build networking/contacts .
        c. Do an internship and write a few small relevant programs that you can discuss during the interview , this is also good for networking3 .
Have a backup plan if you ca n't get a job .
Try to pick a specialty where , if worst comes to worse , you can sell the applications you write , maybe even starting your own business.The above is the catch 22 , no one wants to train people , especially in this economy .
I got a job out of school because I learned the relevant knowledge ( OpenGL ) to my field , and had a portfolio of applications that I wrote outside of school .
The kind of guy that is most likely to get a job is the guy that can laugh at job offers because he knows that he has all the skills necessary to write the application on his own and keep the profits for himself .
Looking back on it , I think my biggest mistake was not pursuing my own business more seriously .
You will always make more money if you can cut out the middle man ( your employer ) , and run your own business .
Sure , you take risks , but in this economy , EVERYTHING is risky , and it 's also risky to be an expendable employee , with debt , in a low-paying entry level job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>1.
Pick a specialty or two.
Maybe you're interested in computer graphics, great, learn OpenGL, or maybe you want to work with databases, fine, learn the API's.2.
Do one or more of the following:
        a.  Write a few small, relevant, open-source programs that you can show to prospective employers.
        b.  Work on a few relevant open-source projects to help build networking/contacts.
        c.  Do an internship and write a few small relevant programs that you can discuss during the interview, this is also good for networking3.
Have a backup plan if you can't get a job.
Try to pick a specialty where, if worst comes to worse, you can sell the applications you write, maybe even starting your own business.The above is the catch 22, no one wants to train people, especially in this economy.
I got a job out of school because I learned the relevant knowledge (OpenGL) to my field, and had a portfolio of applications that I wrote outside of school.
The kind of guy that is most likely to get a job is the guy that can laugh at job offers because he knows that he has all the skills necessary to write the application on his own and keep the profits for himself.
Looking back on it, I think my biggest mistake was not pursuing my own business more seriously.
You will always make more money if you can cut out the middle man (your employer), and run your own business.
Sure, you take risks, but in this economy, EVERYTHING is risky, and it's also risky to be an expendable employee, with debt, in a low-paying entry level job.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31658628</id>
	<title>Wrong path</title>
	<author>clam666</author>
	<datestamp>1269883680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>For me it was easy.  I got my degrees in philosophy and psychology.  They're much more useful in job interviews that boring old technical information.  My technical knowledge came from years of DIY projects, some open source when that became cool, using skills as lame as writing excel and access projects at jobs, taking dozens of classes on my own time for a CS degree that never materialized, etc.</p><p>Seriously, the amount of technical information you have, starting out, is pretty moot.  There's not a huge difference you can tell from looking at your academic list of knowledge other than a basic skillset.  Most grads are the same, unless you just finished your PhD from MIT and hold 12 patents.</p><p>Psychological jokes aside, I just focus on pacing, leading, and manipulating the interviewer to wanting to hire me.  How long I've been working with what tool or language is irrelevent if I can convince them I can learn anything in two weeks.  I don't need to be able to write the greatest data structure in the world if I can convince them of the business reason why you would or wouldn't want one and what the affect is on the bottom line.</p><p>Of course, good or bad, none of it matter if you can't even get a technical interview with a human in the first place.  I don't know if it was mentioned by others, but I went through contracting companies originally.  They do all the work of getting the interview, and I just need to get the suit, tie, 37 pieces of flair, and a winning smile.</p><p>After that point, most everything is word of mouth and "social networking" whatever the hell that is.  IT seems to luckily constantly churn, so I just keep in touch with those who can give me a job (or recommend me to a boss) and return the favor.</p><p>I haven't had to apply or interview for a gig in years that I didn't already have the job going in.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>For me it was easy .
I got my degrees in philosophy and psychology .
They 're much more useful in job interviews that boring old technical information .
My technical knowledge came from years of DIY projects , some open source when that became cool , using skills as lame as writing excel and access projects at jobs , taking dozens of classes on my own time for a CS degree that never materialized , etc.Seriously , the amount of technical information you have , starting out , is pretty moot .
There 's not a huge difference you can tell from looking at your academic list of knowledge other than a basic skillset .
Most grads are the same , unless you just finished your PhD from MIT and hold 12 patents.Psychological jokes aside , I just focus on pacing , leading , and manipulating the interviewer to wanting to hire me .
How long I 've been working with what tool or language is irrelevent if I can convince them I can learn anything in two weeks .
I do n't need to be able to write the greatest data structure in the world if I can convince them of the business reason why you would or would n't want one and what the affect is on the bottom line.Of course , good or bad , none of it matter if you ca n't even get a technical interview with a human in the first place .
I do n't know if it was mentioned by others , but I went through contracting companies originally .
They do all the work of getting the interview , and I just need to get the suit , tie , 37 pieces of flair , and a winning smile.After that point , most everything is word of mouth and " social networking " whatever the hell that is .
IT seems to luckily constantly churn , so I just keep in touch with those who can give me a job ( or recommend me to a boss ) and return the favor.I have n't had to apply or interview for a gig in years that I did n't already have the job going in .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For me it was easy.
I got my degrees in philosophy and psychology.
They're much more useful in job interviews that boring old technical information.
My technical knowledge came from years of DIY projects, some open source when that became cool, using skills as lame as writing excel and access projects at jobs, taking dozens of classes on my own time for a CS degree that never materialized, etc.Seriously, the amount of technical information you have, starting out, is pretty moot.
There's not a huge difference you can tell from looking at your academic list of knowledge other than a basic skillset.
Most grads are the same, unless you just finished your PhD from MIT and hold 12 patents.Psychological jokes aside, I just focus on pacing, leading, and manipulating the interviewer to wanting to hire me.
How long I've been working with what tool or language is irrelevent if I can convince them I can learn anything in two weeks.
I don't need to be able to write the greatest data structure in the world if I can convince them of the business reason why you would or wouldn't want one and what the affect is on the bottom line.Of course, good or bad, none of it matter if you can't even get a technical interview with a human in the first place.
I don't know if it was mentioned by others, but I went through contracting companies originally.
They do all the work of getting the interview, and I just need to get the suit, tie, 37 pieces of flair, and a winning smile.After that point, most everything is word of mouth and "social networking" whatever the hell that is.
IT seems to luckily constantly churn, so I just keep in touch with those who can give me a job (or recommend me to a boss) and return the favor.I haven't had to apply or interview for a gig in years that I didn't already have the job going in.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31656992</id>
	<title>Craigslist</title>
	<author>tthomas48</author>
	<datestamp>1269877020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Pretty much all job positions are advertised on Craigslist these days. It's especially true of entry-level. If they're looking for someone who's entry level (i.e. cheap) then why would they be paying for an actual listing?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Pretty much all job positions are advertised on Craigslist these days .
It 's especially true of entry-level .
If they 're looking for someone who 's entry level ( i.e .
cheap ) then why would they be paying for an actual listing ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Pretty much all job positions are advertised on Craigslist these days.
It's especially true of entry-level.
If they're looking for someone who's entry level (i.e.
cheap) then why would they be paying for an actual listing?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651004</id>
	<title>It's who you know</title>
	<author>Rysc</author>
	<datestamp>1269775260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Any moron can take programming classes and pass. Nobody knows that you're the A+ ace who ran through the textbooks in half the time as the other students and then built an AI to write your homework for you. On paper you just like like J. Random Fuckup who squeaked by with 61\% because he managed to bribe you to do his final for him. Knowing that there are a lot more of Mr. Fuckup than of you, presuming you are not him, why on earth would you expect a company to hire you?</p><p>I'll tell you why: Somebody knows you're a genius, that somebody works for that company, or is friends with its decision makers, and this person goes to them and says "You've got to hire this kid, he's a genius and will be well worth the investment."</p><p>You may be the wiz-kid that's going to make Knuth like like a dope, but until you produce a few thousand lines of brilliant code no one is really going to know it. There are a few proven strategies to make it over this hurdle--becoming a valuable contributer to a high profile open source project is a good way--but most of them are hard, or time consuming, or both. Knowing someone who can recommend you is by far the easiest method.</p><p>Of course, maybe you don't know anyone. If that's the case your options narrow and my next best recommendation would be: Get any IT job. Be a phone answerer, or an on site technician. Yeah, it sucks, but it lets you (occasionally) rub elbows with people who have the potential to recognize your genius. It also lets you (occasionally) rub elbows with problems that could be solved by writing a brilliant piece of software. If one day you see one and you write one, then maybe you'll be able to see it adopted. You know what that is? That's something that looks good on a resume: I produced some software in my spare time which went on to be adopted by the whole fucking company and now saves thousands of dollars in productivity every month. That tells a prospective employer that<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/this/ resume may be worth a callback, and even though HR wont know what that shit means it lets you add a bullet under "Experience"--which is good, because they often take that "15 years of<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.NET development" crap seriously.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Any moron can take programming classes and pass .
Nobody knows that you 're the A + ace who ran through the textbooks in half the time as the other students and then built an AI to write your homework for you .
On paper you just like like J. Random Fuckup who squeaked by with 61 \ % because he managed to bribe you to do his final for him .
Knowing that there are a lot more of Mr. Fuckup than of you , presuming you are not him , why on earth would you expect a company to hire you ? I 'll tell you why : Somebody knows you 're a genius , that somebody works for that company , or is friends with its decision makers , and this person goes to them and says " You 've got to hire this kid , he 's a genius and will be well worth the investment .
" You may be the wiz-kid that 's going to make Knuth like like a dope , but until you produce a few thousand lines of brilliant code no one is really going to know it .
There are a few proven strategies to make it over this hurdle--becoming a valuable contributer to a high profile open source project is a good way--but most of them are hard , or time consuming , or both .
Knowing someone who can recommend you is by far the easiest method.Of course , maybe you do n't know anyone .
If that 's the case your options narrow and my next best recommendation would be : Get any IT job .
Be a phone answerer , or an on site technician .
Yeah , it sucks , but it lets you ( occasionally ) rub elbows with people who have the potential to recognize your genius .
It also lets you ( occasionally ) rub elbows with problems that could be solved by writing a brilliant piece of software .
If one day you see one and you write one , then maybe you 'll be able to see it adopted .
You know what that is ?
That 's something that looks good on a resume : I produced some software in my spare time which went on to be adopted by the whole fucking company and now saves thousands of dollars in productivity every month .
That tells a prospective employer that /this/ resume may be worth a callback , and even though HR wont know what that shit means it lets you add a bullet under " Experience " --which is good , because they often take that " 15 years of .NET development " crap seriously .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Any moron can take programming classes and pass.
Nobody knows that you're the A+ ace who ran through the textbooks in half the time as the other students and then built an AI to write your homework for you.
On paper you just like like J. Random Fuckup who squeaked by with 61\% because he managed to bribe you to do his final for him.
Knowing that there are a lot more of Mr. Fuckup than of you, presuming you are not him, why on earth would you expect a company to hire you?I'll tell you why: Somebody knows you're a genius, that somebody works for that company, or is friends with its decision makers, and this person goes to them and says "You've got to hire this kid, he's a genius and will be well worth the investment.
"You may be the wiz-kid that's going to make Knuth like like a dope, but until you produce a few thousand lines of brilliant code no one is really going to know it.
There are a few proven strategies to make it over this hurdle--becoming a valuable contributer to a high profile open source project is a good way--but most of them are hard, or time consuming, or both.
Knowing someone who can recommend you is by far the easiest method.Of course, maybe you don't know anyone.
If that's the case your options narrow and my next best recommendation would be: Get any IT job.
Be a phone answerer, or an on site technician.
Yeah, it sucks, but it lets you (occasionally) rub elbows with people who have the potential to recognize your genius.
It also lets you (occasionally) rub elbows with problems that could be solved by writing a brilliant piece of software.
If one day you see one and you write one, then maybe you'll be able to see it adopted.
You know what that is?
That's something that looks good on a resume: I produced some software in my spare time which went on to be adopted by the whole fucking company and now saves thousands of dollars in productivity every month.
That tells a prospective employer that /this/ resume may be worth a callback, and even though HR wont know what that shit means it lets you add a bullet under "Experience"--which is good, because they often take that "15 years of .NET development" crap seriously.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31656590</id>
	<title>Graduated from what?</title>
	<author>holmedog</author>
	<datestamp>1269875160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Something the submitter forgets to mention is WHAT he just graduated from.  If he just graduated high school, good luck landing an entry level "programming" job.  There are too many 3+years experience people flooding the job market right now.  I'm working with a mid sized company (6,000 employees) and we haven't hired a green hand in 2 years.

If you just graduated from college, do what most intelligent people do and get an internship.  It's experience, most of them pay at least more than McDonalds, and it gets your foot in the door.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Something the submitter forgets to mention is WHAT he just graduated from .
If he just graduated high school , good luck landing an entry level " programming " job .
There are too many 3 + years experience people flooding the job market right now .
I 'm working with a mid sized company ( 6,000 employees ) and we have n't hired a green hand in 2 years .
If you just graduated from college , do what most intelligent people do and get an internship .
It 's experience , most of them pay at least more than McDonalds , and it gets your foot in the door .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Something the submitter forgets to mention is WHAT he just graduated from.
If he just graduated high school, good luck landing an entry level "programming" job.
There are too many 3+years experience people flooding the job market right now.
I'm working with a mid sized company (6,000 employees) and we haven't hired a green hand in 2 years.
If you just graduated from college, do what most intelligent people do and get an internship.
It's experience, most of them pay at least more than McDonalds, and it gets your foot in the door.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650624</id>
	<title>Re:Apply</title>
	<author>jasmusic</author>
	<datestamp>1269773040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Fo sho. The best way to get an entry level job is to work for minimum wage. Companies who advertise about hiring new grads could give a shit about your degree, because your degree isn't worth anything except smaller liability for the recruiter. They are just glad to put you on bitch work for pennies.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Fo sho .
The best way to get an entry level job is to work for minimum wage .
Companies who advertise about hiring new grads could give a shit about your degree , because your degree is n't worth anything except smaller liability for the recruiter .
They are just glad to put you on bitch work for pennies .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Fo sho.
The best way to get an entry level job is to work for minimum wage.
Companies who advertise about hiring new grads could give a shit about your degree, because your degree isn't worth anything except smaller liability for the recruiter.
They are just glad to put you on bitch work for pennies.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650210</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31655044</id>
	<title>HR</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269863580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You need to understand the role of HR dept.</p><p>They want to make sure you'll fit into the team/company/environment/bull****</p><p>People are right that sometimes the HR Dept. job is to ensure nobody gets hired because the funding isn't there but they don't want to act like that is the case.</p><p>You need to read up on bull****ing HR departments.  Loads of documentation on this and make sure you dress the part.  Use formal language no matter stupid it seems as HR Dept. will differentiate based on that crap too.  You have to give them no reason whatsoever to not hire you because otherwise they will.  It is too hard to get rid of an employee once hired for them to take chances on who they hire or at least it is here with our labor laws.</p><p>I don't know about unpaid internships.  In, Ireland we don't have that crap.  I got paid to do student work experience when I was in 3rd year even and straight out of college.  Ok it wasn't great pay but it was enough to pay rent and go out, oh and eat<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:D</p><p>Unpaid internships are a bit of a rip off IMO but they are starting to turn up here.  I know your useless when you start at a company but they should at least give you enough to live on during training period.  You can't live on air after all.  I can see why they are doing it.  In Ireland the state is starting a train on the dole scheme where you get unemployment benefit while they train you and then they don't have to pay you.</p><p>Some people will say screw that or let them get loans but I disagree with getting people into massive debt to get educated.  I prefer the everyone pays tax and when you get out you pay tax method as it is basically the same system but with tax and pay after.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You need to understand the role of HR dept.They want to make sure you 'll fit into the team/company/environment/bull * * * * People are right that sometimes the HR Dept .
job is to ensure nobody gets hired because the funding is n't there but they do n't want to act like that is the case.You need to read up on bull * * * * ing HR departments .
Loads of documentation on this and make sure you dress the part .
Use formal language no matter stupid it seems as HR Dept .
will differentiate based on that crap too .
You have to give them no reason whatsoever to not hire you because otherwise they will .
It is too hard to get rid of an employee once hired for them to take chances on who they hire or at least it is here with our labor laws.I do n't know about unpaid internships .
In , Ireland we do n't have that crap .
I got paid to do student work experience when I was in 3rd year even and straight out of college .
Ok it was n't great pay but it was enough to pay rent and go out , oh and eat : DUnpaid internships are a bit of a rip off IMO but they are starting to turn up here .
I know your useless when you start at a company but they should at least give you enough to live on during training period .
You ca n't live on air after all .
I can see why they are doing it .
In Ireland the state is starting a train on the dole scheme where you get unemployment benefit while they train you and then they do n't have to pay you.Some people will say screw that or let them get loans but I disagree with getting people into massive debt to get educated .
I prefer the everyone pays tax and when you get out you pay tax method as it is basically the same system but with tax and pay after .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You need to understand the role of HR dept.They want to make sure you'll fit into the team/company/environment/bull****People are right that sometimes the HR Dept.
job is to ensure nobody gets hired because the funding isn't there but they don't want to act like that is the case.You need to read up on bull****ing HR departments.
Loads of documentation on this and make sure you dress the part.
Use formal language no matter stupid it seems as HR Dept.
will differentiate based on that crap too.
You have to give them no reason whatsoever to not hire you because otherwise they will.
It is too hard to get rid of an employee once hired for them to take chances on who they hire or at least it is here with our labor laws.I don't know about unpaid internships.
In, Ireland we don't have that crap.
I got paid to do student work experience when I was in 3rd year even and straight out of college.
Ok it wasn't great pay but it was enough to pay rent and go out, oh and eat :DUnpaid internships are a bit of a rip off IMO but they are starting to turn up here.
I know your useless when you start at a company but they should at least give you enough to live on during training period.
You can't live on air after all.
I can see why they are doing it.
In Ireland the state is starting a train on the dole scheme where you get unemployment benefit while they train you and then they don't have to pay you.Some people will say screw that or let them get loans but I disagree with getting people into massive debt to get educated.
I prefer the everyone pays tax and when you get out you pay tax method as it is basically the same system but with tax and pay after.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31656946</id>
	<title>Re:Apply</title>
	<author>MooseTick</author>
	<datestamp>1269876720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Every companies website lists job offerings, 99\% of the time they have no real intention of filling them."</p><p>This is wrong. Most large companies have a large burocracy surroundign job postings and won't spend the time and money posting jobs if they didn't have a position to be filled. Think of it like this, HR is like everyone else, i.e. mostly lazy. They don't want extra work for no reason and won't list jobs just for fun.</p><p>"I assure you the only people that care about your resume is HR."</p><p>Also not true. I am not in HR and I was looking at a stack of resumes last week for a position that WILL be filled. IF your resume has obvious typos or doesn't list the skills we need then you aren't getting a call. On the flip side, if you list that you can program in every language known to man, have 5 years experience managing Windows 7, brag about having experience with SnagIt or puty, then you are also going into the no call pile.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Every companies website lists job offerings , 99 \ % of the time they have no real intention of filling them .
" This is wrong .
Most large companies have a large burocracy surroundign job postings and wo n't spend the time and money posting jobs if they did n't have a position to be filled .
Think of it like this , HR is like everyone else , i.e .
mostly lazy .
They do n't want extra work for no reason and wo n't list jobs just for fun .
" I assure you the only people that care about your resume is HR .
" Also not true .
I am not in HR and I was looking at a stack of resumes last week for a position that WILL be filled .
IF your resume has obvious typos or does n't list the skills we need then you are n't getting a call .
On the flip side , if you list that you can program in every language known to man , have 5 years experience managing Windows 7 , brag about having experience with SnagIt or puty , then you are also going into the no call pile .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Every companies website lists job offerings, 99\% of the time they have no real intention of filling them.
"This is wrong.
Most large companies have a large burocracy surroundign job postings and won't spend the time and money posting jobs if they didn't have a position to be filled.
Think of it like this, HR is like everyone else, i.e.
mostly lazy.
They don't want extra work for no reason and won't list jobs just for fun.
"I assure you the only people that care about your resume is HR.
"Also not true.
I am not in HR and I was looking at a stack of resumes last week for a position that WILL be filled.
IF your resume has obvious typos or doesn't list the skills we need then you aren't getting a call.
On the flip side, if you list that you can program in every language known to man, have 5 years experience managing Windows 7, brag about having experience with SnagIt or puty, then you are also going into the no call pile.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650362</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651028</id>
	<title>So where is you resume?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269775440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And is there anything on it besides your grades in various college classes and a highschool GPA?</p><p>What work have you done (internships or open-source)? What have <em>you</em> actually accomplished? For self-motivated projects, why did you pick what you did? For public projects, where can the records of your involvement be found?</p><p><div class="quote"><p> <i>I</i> can program! (See how I put that link in?)</p> </div><p>If that's really your idea of "programming", then you are part of the problem Jeff is talking about in that post.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>And is there anything on it besides your grades in various college classes and a highschool GPA ? What work have you done ( internships or open-source ) ?
What have you actually accomplished ?
For self-motivated projects , why did you pick what you did ?
For public projects , where can the records of your involvement be found ?
I can program !
( See how I put that link in ?
) If that 's really your idea of " programming " , then you are part of the problem Jeff is talking about in that post .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And is there anything on it besides your grades in various college classes and a highschool GPA?What work have you done (internships or open-source)?
What have you actually accomplished?
For self-motivated projects, why did you pick what you did?
For public projects, where can the records of your involvement be found?
I can program!
(See how I put that link in?
) If that's really your idea of "programming", then you are part of the problem Jeff is talking about in that post.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31660282</id>
	<title>DoD</title>
	<author>HaZardman27</author>
	<datestamp>1269891060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you don't mind being military for at least four years, are an American, and don't mind getting payed considerably less than the average programmer, enlist as a programmer for the Air Force.  Hell, you can even work on a Master's degree for free while you're in.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you do n't mind being military for at least four years , are an American , and do n't mind getting payed considerably less than the average programmer , enlist as a programmer for the Air Force .
Hell , you can even work on a Master 's degree for free while you 're in .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you don't mind being military for at least four years, are an American, and don't mind getting payed considerably less than the average programmer, enlist as a programmer for the Air Force.
Hell, you can even work on a Master's degree for free while you're in.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650648</id>
	<title>Re:Friends and family</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269773220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Very true. Family or friends is the only way to land that first job these days in this business. That's the way I just landed my first job, after throwing out countless applications that they didn't even have the decency to reject.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Very true .
Family or friends is the only way to land that first job these days in this business .
That 's the way I just landed my first job , after throwing out countless applications that they did n't even have the decency to reject .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Very true.
Family or friends is the only way to land that first job these days in this business.
That's the way I just landed my first job, after throwing out countless applications that they didn't even have the decency to reject.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650368</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31653260</id>
	<title>Re:show off your programming skills</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269797040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Alternatively, get an unpaid internship to prove to an employer that you can do the work. Your university can help find these types of internships if you didn't move away, otherwise check out a local university and see what's been posted there. I work at a small company and whenever we need entry level talent, we use the local universities (for us, Cal and Stanford.) Our most recent intern worked for us for 2 months before we hired him full time. He's the second full-time we've hired through this method.</p><p>Otherwise, the best way to get hired is to network. Check out to see if there are alumni of your school in the area and reach out to them about referring you open positions. Join a local LUG and, once you've shown your proficiency, see if any of them know of open positions. Do whatever it takes to meet tech professionals who might help you find the word-of-mouth positions. In all these cases, you'll still have to pass the interview yourself, but that should be the easy part.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Alternatively , get an unpaid internship to prove to an employer that you can do the work .
Your university can help find these types of internships if you did n't move away , otherwise check out a local university and see what 's been posted there .
I work at a small company and whenever we need entry level talent , we use the local universities ( for us , Cal and Stanford .
) Our most recent intern worked for us for 2 months before we hired him full time .
He 's the second full-time we 've hired through this method.Otherwise , the best way to get hired is to network .
Check out to see if there are alumni of your school in the area and reach out to them about referring you open positions .
Join a local LUG and , once you 've shown your proficiency , see if any of them know of open positions .
Do whatever it takes to meet tech professionals who might help you find the word-of-mouth positions .
In all these cases , you 'll still have to pass the interview yourself , but that should be the easy part .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Alternatively, get an unpaid internship to prove to an employer that you can do the work.
Your university can help find these types of internships if you didn't move away, otherwise check out a local university and see what's been posted there.
I work at a small company and whenever we need entry level talent, we use the local universities (for us, Cal and Stanford.
) Our most recent intern worked for us for 2 months before we hired him full time.
He's the second full-time we've hired through this method.Otherwise, the best way to get hired is to network.
Check out to see if there are alumni of your school in the area and reach out to them about referring you open positions.
Join a local LUG and, once you've shown your proficiency, see if any of them know of open positions.
Do whatever it takes to meet tech professionals who might help you find the word-of-mouth positions.
In all these cases, you'll still have to pass the interview yourself, but that should be the easy part.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650214</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651252</id>
	<title>Networking, experience</title>
	<author>plopez</author>
	<datestamp>1269777180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>For anyone starting out, coming from a veteran of job searching.</p><p>1) Experience. I have said this before, if you have to do some volunteer work for a non-controversial non-profit. E.g. doing websites and donor databases for your local no kill animal shelter. There are plenty of volunteer orgs. that need help. Find one that overlaps your interests and seems a high quality organization. You can get both experience and good references from this.</p><p>In addition, if you show up to help with fundraisers you will probably get to meet local business owners. One of which could give you an internship or entry level job to see how you work out. This is also the networking aspect.</p><p>2) More references and networking. Get a reference from instructors you "click" with. They may even have leads on potential employers, sometimes former students or colleagues of their. It helps if you have an interest and good grades, but if you show a keen interest that helps to offset any academic struggles.</p><p>3) Networking with peers. Form study groups, interests groups, or join one. People who graduated before you could give you leads or advice. Depending on the situation, you may end up doing business with a classmate or two for the rest of your life.</p><p>4) See if you can get a student position at your school's IT dept. or help desk. More opportunities for references and networking.</p><p>5) Put up adds on Craigs List etc. and do a little consulting on the side while in school. It beats washing dishes. Just make sure you know how the taxes work. More opportun ity for networking. Nothing speaks volume like satisfied customers.</p><p>In this economy if all you have done take classes, you are hosed. You lack both experience and social contacts, and will be starting from zero when you graduate which is when you need to money the most.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>For anyone starting out , coming from a veteran of job searching.1 ) Experience .
I have said this before , if you have to do some volunteer work for a non-controversial non-profit .
E.g. doing websites and donor databases for your local no kill animal shelter .
There are plenty of volunteer orgs .
that need help .
Find one that overlaps your interests and seems a high quality organization .
You can get both experience and good references from this.In addition , if you show up to help with fundraisers you will probably get to meet local business owners .
One of which could give you an internship or entry level job to see how you work out .
This is also the networking aspect.2 ) More references and networking .
Get a reference from instructors you " click " with .
They may even have leads on potential employers , sometimes former students or colleagues of their .
It helps if you have an interest and good grades , but if you show a keen interest that helps to offset any academic struggles.3 ) Networking with peers .
Form study groups , interests groups , or join one .
People who graduated before you could give you leads or advice .
Depending on the situation , you may end up doing business with a classmate or two for the rest of your life.4 ) See if you can get a student position at your school 's IT dept .
or help desk .
More opportunities for references and networking.5 ) Put up adds on Craigs List etc .
and do a little consulting on the side while in school .
It beats washing dishes .
Just make sure you know how the taxes work .
More opportun ity for networking .
Nothing speaks volume like satisfied customers.In this economy if all you have done take classes , you are hosed .
You lack both experience and social contacts , and will be starting from zero when you graduate which is when you need to money the most .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For anyone starting out, coming from a veteran of job searching.1) Experience.
I have said this before, if you have to do some volunteer work for a non-controversial non-profit.
E.g. doing websites and donor databases for your local no kill animal shelter.
There are plenty of volunteer orgs.
that need help.
Find one that overlaps your interests and seems a high quality organization.
You can get both experience and good references from this.In addition, if you show up to help with fundraisers you will probably get to meet local business owners.
One of which could give you an internship or entry level job to see how you work out.
This is also the networking aspect.2) More references and networking.
Get a reference from instructors you "click" with.
They may even have leads on potential employers, sometimes former students or colleagues of their.
It helps if you have an interest and good grades, but if you show a keen interest that helps to offset any academic struggles.3) Networking with peers.
Form study groups, interests groups, or join one.
People who graduated before you could give you leads or advice.
Depending on the situation, you may end up doing business with a classmate or two for the rest of your life.4) See if you can get a student position at your school's IT dept.
or help desk.
More opportunities for references and networking.5) Put up adds on Craigs List etc.
and do a little consulting on the side while in school.
It beats washing dishes.
Just make sure you know how the taxes work.
More opportun ity for networking.
Nothing speaks volume like satisfied customers.In this economy if all you have done take classes, you are hosed.
You lack both experience and social contacts, and will be starting from zero when you graduate which is when you need to money the most.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650634</id>
	<title>is programming just a job, or a life style?</title>
	<author>X10</author>
	<datestamp>1269773100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I recently quit a company after just a few weeks, because I couldn't work with the programmers there. I tried to explain to the management what the difference is between their team, and the teams I'm used to working with, but I needed a lot of words. One of them then said "you see programming as a life style, the team here apparently sees it as a nine to five job". And that's the nail on its head.</p><p>If you're any good at programming, and you make software or maintain a linux server in your spare time, tell them. Then they'll know you're not just the average Joe (or Jane). Then they'll ask you for a piece of code, and then you're in - if you're any good.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I recently quit a company after just a few weeks , because I could n't work with the programmers there .
I tried to explain to the management what the difference is between their team , and the teams I 'm used to working with , but I needed a lot of words .
One of them then said " you see programming as a life style , the team here apparently sees it as a nine to five job " .
And that 's the nail on its head.If you 're any good at programming , and you make software or maintain a linux server in your spare time , tell them .
Then they 'll know you 're not just the average Joe ( or Jane ) .
Then they 'll ask you for a piece of code , and then you 're in - if you 're any good .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I recently quit a company after just a few weeks, because I couldn't work with the programmers there.
I tried to explain to the management what the difference is between their team, and the teams I'm used to working with, but I needed a lot of words.
One of them then said "you see programming as a life style, the team here apparently sees it as a nine to five job".
And that's the nail on its head.If you're any good at programming, and you make software or maintain a linux server in your spare time, tell them.
Then they'll know you're not just the average Joe (or Jane).
Then they'll ask you for a piece of code, and then you're in - if you're any good.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652500</id>
	<title>Re:Friends and family</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269788880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What's with posting salaries in Krone? This is America, damnit! Use something we can relate to.....
</p><p>.... like Rupees or Yuan.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What 's with posting salaries in Krone ?
This is America , damnit !
Use something we can relate to.... . .... like Rupees or Yuan .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What's with posting salaries in Krone?
This is America, damnit!
Use something we can relate to.....
.... like Rupees or Yuan.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650368</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31657486</id>
	<title>Re:Missing something</title>
	<author>HaZardman27</author>
	<datestamp>1269878880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Let's get this straight; you're finishing what I'm assuming is your associate's degree since it's at a community college, will soon be attending a university, and got your first internship.  You think you are some sort of expert on social networking and job finding now?  Best laugh of the day so far.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Let 's get this straight ; you 're finishing what I 'm assuming is your associate 's degree since it 's at a community college , will soon be attending a university , and got your first internship .
You think you are some sort of expert on social networking and job finding now ?
Best laugh of the day so far .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Let's get this straight; you're finishing what I'm assuming is your associate's degree since it's at a community college, will soon be attending a university, and got your first internship.
You think you are some sort of expert on social networking and job finding now?
Best laugh of the day so far.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650206</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650260</id>
	<title>The economy</title>
	<author>AuMatar</author>
	<datestamp>1269770580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Bad economy+no practical experience+little school no one has heard of=hard to get a job.  Particularly if your college can't get together a real job fair. Applying to internet postings works more if you have experience on your resume, its a difficult way to get a first job.  Especially since in this economy an experienced but out of work programmer may apply for a position normally below him.  It was that way after the<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.com crash too.</p><p>I'd suggest using any people you know already in the industry or in companies that hire programmers. And consider taking an IT position if you can't get anything else-  I know a lot of programmers from small schools that started out that way and then switched over.  If nothing else it will pay the bills for a while.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Bad economy + no practical experience + little school no one has heard of = hard to get a job .
Particularly if your college ca n't get together a real job fair .
Applying to internet postings works more if you have experience on your resume , its a difficult way to get a first job .
Especially since in this economy an experienced but out of work programmer may apply for a position normally below him .
It was that way after the .com crash too.I 'd suggest using any people you know already in the industry or in companies that hire programmers .
And consider taking an IT position if you ca n't get anything else- I know a lot of programmers from small schools that started out that way and then switched over .
If nothing else it will pay the bills for a while .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Bad economy+no practical experience+little school no one has heard of=hard to get a job.
Particularly if your college can't get together a real job fair.
Applying to internet postings works more if you have experience on your resume, its a difficult way to get a first job.
Especially since in this economy an experienced but out of work programmer may apply for a position normally below him.
It was that way after the .com crash too.I'd suggest using any people you know already in the industry or in companies that hire programmers.
And consider taking an IT position if you can't get anything else-  I know a lot of programmers from small schools that started out that way and then switched over.
If nothing else it will pay the bills for a while.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651276</id>
	<title>Re:Find your roadblock and get around it</title>
	<author>mobby\_6kl</author>
	<datestamp>1269777540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'll second the resume suggestion and I'll comment a bit more on this, as this hasn't been discussed much so far. This might indeed be his main problem (besides the fact that the economy is just starting to recover and lots of companies have hiring freezes) if he's not getting any responses at all.</p><p>The shittyness of some resumes can be simply staggering, and the OP's might be one of these. It's not that you need embossed print or watermarked paper, but following some basic rules of typography and design helps immensely. I'm not a designer myself, but I think just sticking to one font (maybe a different one for the name/heading is ok too) and keeping the layout as clear and as consistent as possible can make a huge difference.</p><p>The content itself is of course very important. Even as a fresh graduate, you don't want your resume to look like this:</p><blockquote><div><p>chemicaldave<br>chemicaldave@hotmail.com<br>215 555 6342</p><p>EDUCATION<br>CS, Joe Shmoe College 2006-2010<br>Hicktown high school 2002-2006</p><p>SKILLS<br>Java<br>C</p><p>EXPERIENCE<br>Code monkey,  college library 2007-2008<br>-Maintained their web page and did some other stuff*</p></div></blockquote><p>*-paraphrasing, but this is an actual line I saw somebody write on their resume.</p><p>Obviously, make sure there aren't any spelling or grammar problems, or just awkward phrasing anywhere. I'm not going to say what exactly you should write to guarantee a job because I don't know that myself, but in my opinion (well also in the opinion of people vastly more experienced than I am) the most important thing here is to show how you are different and better that others who would be applying for the same job. Unless there are more jobs that possible candidates, you <i>are</i> going to compete with them. Sure you can code in C, but so can I, and I've never went through a fancy CS program.</p><p>So, think about how you are better than others, like those who will be graduating with you. If you can't think of anything, well, that's your problem. Do something about it ASAP before you graduate and become unemployed.</p><p>It's possible to argue that skills required for making a nice resume don't overlap much with those required from a code monkey, but if the resume looks like it was designed and written by a thirteen year old, I think the HR drones are more then justified in tossing it in the bin. At the very least, a nice resume shows the employers that you care about finding a job, put in the effort to do it right, and that you could also pick up the skills which were necessary for the task, even if they weren't your area of expertise originally.</p><p><b>OP, if you're reading this (and I hope you are, I didn't type all this for my own amusement!), why don't you post your CV so we can critique it for you?</b><br>PS. the cover letters can be just as important.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'll second the resume suggestion and I 'll comment a bit more on this , as this has n't been discussed much so far .
This might indeed be his main problem ( besides the fact that the economy is just starting to recover and lots of companies have hiring freezes ) if he 's not getting any responses at all.The shittyness of some resumes can be simply staggering , and the OP 's might be one of these .
It 's not that you need embossed print or watermarked paper , but following some basic rules of typography and design helps immensely .
I 'm not a designer myself , but I think just sticking to one font ( maybe a different one for the name/heading is ok too ) and keeping the layout as clear and as consistent as possible can make a huge difference.The content itself is of course very important .
Even as a fresh graduate , you do n't want your resume to look like this : chemicaldavechemicaldave @ hotmail.com215 555 6342EDUCATIONCS , Joe Shmoe College 2006-2010Hicktown high school 2002-2006SKILLSJavaCEXPERIENCECode monkey , college library 2007-2008-Maintained their web page and did some other stuff * * -paraphrasing , but this is an actual line I saw somebody write on their resume.Obviously , make sure there are n't any spelling or grammar problems , or just awkward phrasing anywhere .
I 'm not going to say what exactly you should write to guarantee a job because I do n't know that myself , but in my opinion ( well also in the opinion of people vastly more experienced than I am ) the most important thing here is to show how you are different and better that others who would be applying for the same job .
Unless there are more jobs that possible candidates , you are going to compete with them .
Sure you can code in C , but so can I , and I 've never went through a fancy CS program.So , think about how you are better than others , like those who will be graduating with you .
If you ca n't think of anything , well , that 's your problem .
Do something about it ASAP before you graduate and become unemployed.It 's possible to argue that skills required for making a nice resume do n't overlap much with those required from a code monkey , but if the resume looks like it was designed and written by a thirteen year old , I think the HR drones are more then justified in tossing it in the bin .
At the very least , a nice resume shows the employers that you care about finding a job , put in the effort to do it right , and that you could also pick up the skills which were necessary for the task , even if they were n't your area of expertise originally.OP , if you 're reading this ( and I hope you are , I did n't type all this for my own amusement !
) , why do n't you post your CV so we can critique it for you ? PS .
the cover letters can be just as important .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'll second the resume suggestion and I'll comment a bit more on this, as this hasn't been discussed much so far.
This might indeed be his main problem (besides the fact that the economy is just starting to recover and lots of companies have hiring freezes) if he's not getting any responses at all.The shittyness of some resumes can be simply staggering, and the OP's might be one of these.
It's not that you need embossed print or watermarked paper, but following some basic rules of typography and design helps immensely.
I'm not a designer myself, but I think just sticking to one font (maybe a different one for the name/heading is ok too) and keeping the layout as clear and as consistent as possible can make a huge difference.The content itself is of course very important.
Even as a fresh graduate, you don't want your resume to look like this:chemicaldavechemicaldave@hotmail.com215 555 6342EDUCATIONCS, Joe Shmoe College 2006-2010Hicktown high school 2002-2006SKILLSJavaCEXPERIENCECode monkey,  college library 2007-2008-Maintained their web page and did some other stuff**-paraphrasing, but this is an actual line I saw somebody write on their resume.Obviously, make sure there aren't any spelling or grammar problems, or just awkward phrasing anywhere.
I'm not going to say what exactly you should write to guarantee a job because I don't know that myself, but in my opinion (well also in the opinion of people vastly more experienced than I am) the most important thing here is to show how you are different and better that others who would be applying for the same job.
Unless there are more jobs that possible candidates, you are going to compete with them.
Sure you can code in C, but so can I, and I've never went through a fancy CS program.So, think about how you are better than others, like those who will be graduating with you.
If you can't think of anything, well, that's your problem.
Do something about it ASAP before you graduate and become unemployed.It's possible to argue that skills required for making a nice resume don't overlap much with those required from a code monkey, but if the resume looks like it was designed and written by a thirteen year old, I think the HR drones are more then justified in tossing it in the bin.
At the very least, a nice resume shows the employers that you care about finding a job, put in the effort to do it right, and that you could also pick up the skills which were necessary for the task, even if they weren't your area of expertise originally.OP, if you're reading this (and I hope you are, I didn't type all this for my own amusement!
), why don't you post your CV so we can critique it for you?PS.
the cover letters can be just as important.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650352</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31655824</id>
	<title>Re:To that I'll add</title>
	<author>Y Ddraig Goch</author>
	<datestamp>1269871320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I agree, mostly.  However, I'm at at point in my life that I'm trying to change jobs, and move to another area.  EVERY job I've looked at requires a Bachelors degree minimum, and most want a Masters.  I have an Associates Degree.  I can't even get through the HR filter.  I'm a damn good programmer, I've worked with those so called graduates and most can't even write a simple piece of 2 way matching code in COBOL let alone in SQL or C++.  One individual I worked with would spend hours searching through code he could "hack" and make it do what he wanted instead of sitting down and just writing what needed to be written.  My first compiled language was FORTRAN IV on an IBM 360</htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree , mostly .
However , I 'm at at point in my life that I 'm trying to change jobs , and move to another area .
EVERY job I 've looked at requires a Bachelors degree minimum , and most want a Masters .
I have an Associates Degree .
I ca n't even get through the HR filter .
I 'm a damn good programmer , I 've worked with those so called graduates and most ca n't even write a simple piece of 2 way matching code in COBOL let alone in SQL or C + + .
One individual I worked with would spend hours searching through code he could " hack " and make it do what he wanted instead of sitting down and just writing what needed to be written .
My first compiled language was FORTRAN IV on an IBM 360</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree, mostly.
However, I'm at at point in my life that I'm trying to change jobs, and move to another area.
EVERY job I've looked at requires a Bachelors degree minimum, and most want a Masters.
I have an Associates Degree.
I can't even get through the HR filter.
I'm a damn good programmer, I've worked with those so called graduates and most can't even write a simple piece of 2 way matching code in COBOL let alone in SQL or C++.
One individual I worked with would spend hours searching through code he could "hack" and make it do what he wanted instead of sitting down and just writing what needed to be written.
My first compiled language was FORTRAN IV on an IBM 360</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652102</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651660</id>
	<title>Pretty simple for us</title>
	<author>ducomputergeek</author>
	<datestamp>1269780540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We're located a couple miles from a 20k+ student University.  We're one of the few software development shops around, but we have a simple formula.  We hire 1 - 2 interns who Jr's in the fall.  Fall semester we expect 10 hours week and it's an unpaid internship.  Usually it is on some type of utility that can help us in the long run, but hasn't been important enough to take way from the full time people.  But whatever it is, it's something that is going to be put out into production.  It has to work.  Sometimes we send them into the fire working on opensource projects that need to be tweaked for our needs.    Again, whatever it is, is something that will be put into production.</p><p>If they are worth a grain of salt, they start working for us part time for a monthly stipend that's about twice what they could make working 15 - 20 hours a week on campus.  During the spring, summer, and their senior year.  Only rule is get the tasks done.  If they've made it to this point, typically we don't have to look over their shoulders.  Generally at the end of their Sr. year, they either have a job offer back home (because they have real experience), or we've hired them full-time because while they were working as an intern they were building our next product.  By the time they finish school, we're out selling said product to customers and usually it's enough revenue to pay their salary + benefits.</p><p>We call it our "Code your way into a job" programme.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We 're located a couple miles from a 20k + student University .
We 're one of the few software development shops around , but we have a simple formula .
We hire 1 - 2 interns who Jr 's in the fall .
Fall semester we expect 10 hours week and it 's an unpaid internship .
Usually it is on some type of utility that can help us in the long run , but has n't been important enough to take way from the full time people .
But whatever it is , it 's something that is going to be put out into production .
It has to work .
Sometimes we send them into the fire working on opensource projects that need to be tweaked for our needs .
Again , whatever it is , is something that will be put into production.If they are worth a grain of salt , they start working for us part time for a monthly stipend that 's about twice what they could make working 15 - 20 hours a week on campus .
During the spring , summer , and their senior year .
Only rule is get the tasks done .
If they 've made it to this point , typically we do n't have to look over their shoulders .
Generally at the end of their Sr. year , they either have a job offer back home ( because they have real experience ) , or we 've hired them full-time because while they were working as an intern they were building our next product .
By the time they finish school , we 're out selling said product to customers and usually it 's enough revenue to pay their salary + benefits.We call it our " Code your way into a job " programme .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We're located a couple miles from a 20k+ student University.
We're one of the few software development shops around, but we have a simple formula.
We hire 1 - 2 interns who Jr's in the fall.
Fall semester we expect 10 hours week and it's an unpaid internship.
Usually it is on some type of utility that can help us in the long run, but hasn't been important enough to take way from the full time people.
But whatever it is, it's something that is going to be put out into production.
It has to work.
Sometimes we send them into the fire working on opensource projects that need to be tweaked for our needs.
Again, whatever it is, is something that will be put into production.If they are worth a grain of salt, they start working for us part time for a monthly stipend that's about twice what they could make working 15 - 20 hours a week on campus.
During the spring, summer, and their senior year.
Only rule is get the tasks done.
If they've made it to this point, typically we don't have to look over their shoulders.
Generally at the end of their Sr. year, they either have a job offer back home (because they have real experience), or we've hired them full-time because while they were working as an intern they were building our next product.
By the time they finish school, we're out selling said product to customers and usually it's enough revenue to pay their salary + benefits.We call it our "Code your way into a job" programme.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651100</id>
	<title>Re:Friends and family</title>
	<author>Bigjeff5</author>
	<datestamp>1269776100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Have you asked your friends and family. And families friends...and so on.</p><p>That's were most of the jobs are. Which is a bit sad.</p></div><p>It's not sad, it's a time-tested way to get good employees.  This key here, is to <i>make friends in the industry</i>!  That's where all the jobs are.  If so-and-so knows about a big project coming up for which they are going to need a new programmer, do you think he's going to mention anything to joe-blow on the street about it?  Do you think he's going to suggest to his boss that they should check out joe-blow on the street?  Hell no!  But he might say something to his D&amp;D buddy, who's a little wet behind the ears but seems smart.  If the new project is largely grunt work, they'll probably not even bother with the formal application process and skip right to the interview and hiring process.</p><p>Networking is the key to getting any good job.  You can do ok with entry level jobs, and you'll occasionally find good jobs in wide open postings, but chances are they've already got someone at the top of the list, and  they usually pick the guy at the top of the list - wouldn't it be nice if that someone were you?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Have you asked your friends and family .
And families friends...and so on.That 's were most of the jobs are .
Which is a bit sad.It 's not sad , it 's a time-tested way to get good employees .
This key here , is to make friends in the industry !
That 's where all the jobs are .
If so-and-so knows about a big project coming up for which they are going to need a new programmer , do you think he 's going to mention anything to joe-blow on the street about it ?
Do you think he 's going to suggest to his boss that they should check out joe-blow on the street ?
Hell no !
But he might say something to his D&amp;D buddy , who 's a little wet behind the ears but seems smart .
If the new project is largely grunt work , they 'll probably not even bother with the formal application process and skip right to the interview and hiring process.Networking is the key to getting any good job .
You can do ok with entry level jobs , and you 'll occasionally find good jobs in wide open postings , but chances are they 've already got someone at the top of the list , and they usually pick the guy at the top of the list - would n't it be nice if that someone were you ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Have you asked your friends and family.
And families friends...and so on.That's were most of the jobs are.
Which is a bit sad.It's not sad, it's a time-tested way to get good employees.
This key here, is to make friends in the industry!
That's where all the jobs are.
If so-and-so knows about a big project coming up for which they are going to need a new programmer, do you think he's going to mention anything to joe-blow on the street about it?
Do you think he's going to suggest to his boss that they should check out joe-blow on the street?
Hell no!
But he might say something to his D&amp;D buddy, who's a little wet behind the ears but seems smart.
If the new project is largely grunt work, they'll probably not even bother with the formal application process and skip right to the interview and hiring process.Networking is the key to getting any good job.
You can do ok with entry level jobs, and you'll occasionally find good jobs in wide open postings, but chances are they've already got someone at the top of the list, and  they usually pick the guy at the top of the list - wouldn't it be nice if that someone were you?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650368</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650202</id>
	<title>Call the boss</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269770280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Find a company you want to work with, even if they are not advertising positions. Call your prospective boss, tell him you want to work with him. Done!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Find a company you want to work with , even if they are not advertising positions .
Call your prospective boss , tell him you want to work with him .
Done !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Find a company you want to work with, even if they are not advertising positions.
Call your prospective boss, tell him you want to work with him.
Done!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31660246</id>
	<title>Re:To that I'll add</title>
	<author>Psychochild</author>
	<datestamp>1269890820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>To put it succinctly: a college degree isn't enough.  It is, however, a good start.</p><p>I think the real benefit is that college gives you the time and resources to do your own thing.  For example, it's easier to do an unpaid internship if you already have room and board covered through student loans or from your parents.</p><p>I got a CS degree (and Spanish, minor in Business) in the mid-90s.  About the time I was graduating, I saw people get into CS because the dot-com boom showed that programming was big money.  I'm sure lots of people were disappointed when the crash came along a few years later.  I didn't do an internship in school, so the first job I got was one that literally nobody else wanted to do.  I only got it because I called back after everyone else had turned down job offers.  It was a soul-sucking job, though, working at a small company owned by a huge company and experienced the worst of both worlds.</p><p>When I was in college, I spent a lot of time working on text MUDs (predecessors to MMORPGs) while I was working on my CS assignments.  I eventually got the opportunity to be a programmer ("Wizard") on a game and spent a lot of time creating and designing.  It was this experience that let me get my foot in the door in the game industry.  I've been working on the game industry for nearly 12 years now, first as a mook, then owning my own company, and now doing mostly consulting and contract work.  I'm relatively well-known in my small niche.  But,I owe a lot of it on working on MUDs.  That experience got me my first job working on <i>Meridian 59</i> at 3DO which lead to other opportunities.</p><p>So, take this advice: do something else while you have the time and resources in college.  Internships, volunteer for a open source project, work on games, whatever.  Just get something to help you stand out from the crowd.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>To put it succinctly : a college degree is n't enough .
It is , however , a good start.I think the real benefit is that college gives you the time and resources to do your own thing .
For example , it 's easier to do an unpaid internship if you already have room and board covered through student loans or from your parents.I got a CS degree ( and Spanish , minor in Business ) in the mid-90s .
About the time I was graduating , I saw people get into CS because the dot-com boom showed that programming was big money .
I 'm sure lots of people were disappointed when the crash came along a few years later .
I did n't do an internship in school , so the first job I got was one that literally nobody else wanted to do .
I only got it because I called back after everyone else had turned down job offers .
It was a soul-sucking job , though , working at a small company owned by a huge company and experienced the worst of both worlds.When I was in college , I spent a lot of time working on text MUDs ( predecessors to MMORPGs ) while I was working on my CS assignments .
I eventually got the opportunity to be a programmer ( " Wizard " ) on a game and spent a lot of time creating and designing .
It was this experience that let me get my foot in the door in the game industry .
I 've been working on the game industry for nearly 12 years now , first as a mook , then owning my own company , and now doing mostly consulting and contract work .
I 'm relatively well-known in my small niche .
But,I owe a lot of it on working on MUDs .
That experience got me my first job working on Meridian 59 at 3DO which lead to other opportunities.So , take this advice : do something else while you have the time and resources in college .
Internships , volunteer for a open source project , work on games , whatever .
Just get something to help you stand out from the crowd .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To put it succinctly: a college degree isn't enough.
It is, however, a good start.I think the real benefit is that college gives you the time and resources to do your own thing.
For example, it's easier to do an unpaid internship if you already have room and board covered through student loans or from your parents.I got a CS degree (and Spanish, minor in Business) in the mid-90s.
About the time I was graduating, I saw people get into CS because the dot-com boom showed that programming was big money.
I'm sure lots of people were disappointed when the crash came along a few years later.
I didn't do an internship in school, so the first job I got was one that literally nobody else wanted to do.
I only got it because I called back after everyone else had turned down job offers.
It was a soul-sucking job, though, working at a small company owned by a huge company and experienced the worst of both worlds.When I was in college, I spent a lot of time working on text MUDs (predecessors to MMORPGs) while I was working on my CS assignments.
I eventually got the opportunity to be a programmer ("Wizard") on a game and spent a lot of time creating and designing.
It was this experience that let me get my foot in the door in the game industry.
I've been working on the game industry for nearly 12 years now, first as a mook, then owning my own company, and now doing mostly consulting and contract work.
I'm relatively well-known in my small niche.
But,I owe a lot of it on working on MUDs.
That experience got me my first job working on Meridian 59 at 3DO which lead to other opportunities.So, take this advice: do something else while you have the time and resources in college.
Internships, volunteer for a open source project, work on games, whatever.
Just get something to help you stand out from the crowd.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652102</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31657016</id>
	<title>Re:The purpose of the HR department</title>
	<author>Critical Facilities</author>
	<datestamp>1269877080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Well,  someone's a little bitter.  Maybe you could lose the attitude,  and you might have better luck in your interviews.  Just a thought.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , someone 's a little bitter .
Maybe you could lose the attitude , and you might have better luck in your interviews .
Just a thought .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well,  someone's a little bitter.
Maybe you could lose the attitude,  and you might have better luck in your interviews.
Just a thought.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651688</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31653834</id>
	<title>Re:Apply</title>
	<author>KnightBlade</author>
	<datestamp>1269803460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Actually no they're not. I'm going through the same thing as this guy is and you're wrong. I've mentioned I'm ready to work unpaid, even that hasn't been enough.

People who have graduated before me (and have jobs) would disagree with your "computer janitor" part. That's just BS. OK so we won't be working on critical parts as your experienced ass might, but our work will account to something.

To find a job after school requires 2 things - 1. strong network. 2. good school which has good career fairs.
IMO grades, as long as not really bad, don't matter. I have almost all As and it hasn't helped. I wished I didn't go to school in Oklahoma...</htmltext>
<tokenext>Actually no they 're not .
I 'm going through the same thing as this guy is and you 're wrong .
I 've mentioned I 'm ready to work unpaid , even that has n't been enough .
People who have graduated before me ( and have jobs ) would disagree with your " computer janitor " part .
That 's just BS .
OK so we wo n't be working on critical parts as your experienced ass might , but our work will account to something .
To find a job after school requires 2 things - 1. strong network .
2. good school which has good career fairs .
IMO grades , as long as not really bad , do n't matter .
I have almost all As and it has n't helped .
I wished I did n't go to school in Oklahoma.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Actually no they're not.
I'm going through the same thing as this guy is and you're wrong.
I've mentioned I'm ready to work unpaid, even that hasn't been enough.
People who have graduated before me (and have jobs) would disagree with your "computer janitor" part.
That's just BS.
OK so we won't be working on critical parts as your experienced ass might, but our work will account to something.
To find a job after school requires 2 things - 1. strong network.
2. good school which has good career fairs.
IMO grades, as long as not really bad, don't matter.
I have almost all As and it hasn't helped.
I wished I didn't go to school in Oklahoma...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650210</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31662592</id>
	<title>be patient</title>
	<author>wileyj</author>
	<datestamp>1269858420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The best thing you can do is to try to find out a bit about companies you are interested in working for.
each time i look for a new position, this is my first step---find out who is in HR, who their boss is, etc and email/call them to gauge their interest.
you're basically doing some social engineering here---your goal is to get names and phone numbers of the people who would be interviewing you and/or hiring you. call/email them and politely state what you're looking for and feel them to see if they're interested...don't be pushy whatsoever, or claim that you know more than other people in the field. no one wants to work with a jerk.

that linked in site is really good for things like this too---you can find out who works for what company, and see if you can get any sort of info from them about the hierarchy.

and i'm sure it's been said previously, but you should definitely look outside your area for work---bigger cities always have openings, and they also have a lot more for temp agencies.
my current gig, i actually didn't like my prospects where i was and ended up working through a temp agency in a major city before i was brought on full-time.

above all, be patient and don't just blast out template letters with garbage that doesn't relate to the company you want to work for. it always works better when you target a specific company, and try to show them how you can help their business.
and definitely be prepared for some "different" interview questions---like my favorite one "logically, how would you program a 50 floor elevator".

good luck!
it's not the best market out there right now---but as long as you keep looking you'll find something.
and you could always hire a headhunter....</htmltext>
<tokenext>The best thing you can do is to try to find out a bit about companies you are interested in working for .
each time i look for a new position , this is my first step---find out who is in HR , who their boss is , etc and email/call them to gauge their interest .
you 're basically doing some social engineering here---your goal is to get names and phone numbers of the people who would be interviewing you and/or hiring you .
call/email them and politely state what you 're looking for and feel them to see if they 're interested...do n't be pushy whatsoever , or claim that you know more than other people in the field .
no one wants to work with a jerk .
that linked in site is really good for things like this too---you can find out who works for what company , and see if you can get any sort of info from them about the hierarchy .
and i 'm sure it 's been said previously , but you should definitely look outside your area for work---bigger cities always have openings , and they also have a lot more for temp agencies .
my current gig , i actually did n't like my prospects where i was and ended up working through a temp agency in a major city before i was brought on full-time .
above all , be patient and do n't just blast out template letters with garbage that does n't relate to the company you want to work for .
it always works better when you target a specific company , and try to show them how you can help their business .
and definitely be prepared for some " different " interview questions---like my favorite one " logically , how would you program a 50 floor elevator " .
good luck !
it 's not the best market out there right now---but as long as you keep looking you 'll find something .
and you could always hire a headhunter... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The best thing you can do is to try to find out a bit about companies you are interested in working for.
each time i look for a new position, this is my first step---find out who is in HR, who their boss is, etc and email/call them to gauge their interest.
you're basically doing some social engineering here---your goal is to get names and phone numbers of the people who would be interviewing you and/or hiring you.
call/email them and politely state what you're looking for and feel them to see if they're interested...don't be pushy whatsoever, or claim that you know more than other people in the field.
no one wants to work with a jerk.
that linked in site is really good for things like this too---you can find out who works for what company, and see if you can get any sort of info from them about the hierarchy.
and i'm sure it's been said previously, but you should definitely look outside your area for work---bigger cities always have openings, and they also have a lot more for temp agencies.
my current gig, i actually didn't like my prospects where i was and ended up working through a temp agency in a major city before i was brought on full-time.
above all, be patient and don't just blast out template letters with garbage that doesn't relate to the company you want to work for.
it always works better when you target a specific company, and try to show them how you can help their business.
and definitely be prepared for some "different" interview questions---like my favorite one "logically, how would you program a 50 floor elevator".
good luck!
it's not the best market out there right now---but as long as you keep looking you'll find something.
and you could always hire a headhunter....</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650836</id>
	<title>Find an internship and bust your ass</title>
	<author>JazzyMusicMan</author>
	<datestamp>1269774360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I guess I can count myself as one of the fortunate ones. I landed an internship with a great company that gave me the opportunity to learn. I gave 110+\% on everything I had to do. Most of it was menial and sucked, but then again, programming for any large firm usually is. I had a full time position within 6 months of starting my internship. One of the first things I learned early on was, no matter how great of a coder I thought I was, I didn't know anything.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I guess I can count myself as one of the fortunate ones .
I landed an internship with a great company that gave me the opportunity to learn .
I gave 110 + \ % on everything I had to do .
Most of it was menial and sucked , but then again , programming for any large firm usually is .
I had a full time position within 6 months of starting my internship .
One of the first things I learned early on was , no matter how great of a coder I thought I was , I did n't know anything .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I guess I can count myself as one of the fortunate ones.
I landed an internship with a great company that gave me the opportunity to learn.
I gave 110+\% on everything I had to do.
Most of it was menial and sucked, but then again, programming for any large firm usually is.
I had a full time position within 6 months of starting my internship.
One of the first things I learned early on was, no matter how great of a coder I thought I was, I didn't know anything.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31661350</id>
	<title>Fundamental programming skills over school's brand</title>
	<author>Ubik</author>
	<datestamp>1269896160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It is difficult to get past the HR doorman indeed - because of "non-programming programmers" (CodingHorror). The answer to that are tools for automated verification of programming skills like Codility (http://codility.com/), which value fundamental coding skills over the school's brand and proficiency in CV writing!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is difficult to get past the HR doorman indeed - because of " non-programming programmers " ( CodingHorror ) .
The answer to that are tools for automated verification of programming skills like Codility ( http : //codility.com/ ) , which value fundamental coding skills over the school 's brand and proficiency in CV writing !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is difficult to get past the HR doorman indeed - because of "non-programming programmers" (CodingHorror).
The answer to that are tools for automated verification of programming skills like Codility (http://codility.com/), which value fundamental coding skills over the school's brand and proficiency in CV writing!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652076</id>
	<title>Re:Here's The Problem.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269784560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have to agree with this post. Particularly point number two.</p><p>I couldn't afford to go to university. When I graduated high school, I relocated to a major city. I then worked at a local computer shop for three months for literally a roof over my head, and three meals a day. I then got a job as casual data entry operator at a government institute I knew would let me do some IT work, and worked there for another three months.</p><p>Using that, and the prove you want the job mentality (point four), I got a job at a small software development house. The pay was terrible by industry standards, but as a small company it gave me a chance to prove myself. I worked for that company for 6 years, and was able to experience many different things, and grow as a programmer. As I proved my self to the company, my pay got better. It never got very good, but it fast reached a comfortable level.</p><p>After 6 years the company changed directions, and I decided to part ways. For 6 months I contracted various jobs at $120 an hour. I then found a full time job. Starting at $70kpa, and rising to over $100kpa in three years.</p><p>Like any industry, its all about proving yourself. And the fact of the matter is, no matter how special you think you are, the only way to really prove yourself is to do hard and honest work.</p><p>I didn't go to university, but I worked hard, and lived lean for 6 years (about the same time as a good uni course), and now I have a comfortable job, that pays well, better in fact than most people who went to uni instead. Not saying you shouldn't go to uni, just saying, uni or not, hard work pays off. Don't think you are entitled to anything... go out and earn it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have to agree with this post .
Particularly point number two.I could n't afford to go to university .
When I graduated high school , I relocated to a major city .
I then worked at a local computer shop for three months for literally a roof over my head , and three meals a day .
I then got a job as casual data entry operator at a government institute I knew would let me do some IT work , and worked there for another three months.Using that , and the prove you want the job mentality ( point four ) , I got a job at a small software development house .
The pay was terrible by industry standards , but as a small company it gave me a chance to prove myself .
I worked for that company for 6 years , and was able to experience many different things , and grow as a programmer .
As I proved my self to the company , my pay got better .
It never got very good , but it fast reached a comfortable level.After 6 years the company changed directions , and I decided to part ways .
For 6 months I contracted various jobs at $ 120 an hour .
I then found a full time job .
Starting at $ 70kpa , and rising to over $ 100kpa in three years.Like any industry , its all about proving yourself .
And the fact of the matter is , no matter how special you think you are , the only way to really prove yourself is to do hard and honest work.I did n't go to university , but I worked hard , and lived lean for 6 years ( about the same time as a good uni course ) , and now I have a comfortable job , that pays well , better in fact than most people who went to uni instead .
Not saying you should n't go to uni , just saying , uni or not , hard work pays off .
Do n't think you are entitled to anything... go out and earn it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have to agree with this post.
Particularly point number two.I couldn't afford to go to university.
When I graduated high school, I relocated to a major city.
I then worked at a local computer shop for three months for literally a roof over my head, and three meals a day.
I then got a job as casual data entry operator at a government institute I knew would let me do some IT work, and worked there for another three months.Using that, and the prove you want the job mentality (point four), I got a job at a small software development house.
The pay was terrible by industry standards, but as a small company it gave me a chance to prove myself.
I worked for that company for 6 years, and was able to experience many different things, and grow as a programmer.
As I proved my self to the company, my pay got better.
It never got very good, but it fast reached a comfortable level.After 6 years the company changed directions, and I decided to part ways.
For 6 months I contracted various jobs at $120 an hour.
I then found a full time job.
Starting at $70kpa, and rising to over $100kpa in three years.Like any industry, its all about proving yourself.
And the fact of the matter is, no matter how special you think you are, the only way to really prove yourself is to do hard and honest work.I didn't go to university, but I worked hard, and lived lean for 6 years (about the same time as a good uni course), and now I have a comfortable job, that pays well, better in fact than most people who went to uni instead.
Not saying you shouldn't go to uni, just saying, uni or not, hard work pays off.
Don't think you are entitled to anything... go out and earn it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650320</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651704</id>
	<title>staffing firms are clue less at time to point of p</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269780900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>staffing firms are clue less at time to point of pay people to sit a office to have little to no work to do (and stuff that they having you doing grunt stuff that is not the job they hired you for) as they are waiting on paper work to go though But there is a lot more to that story.</p><p>1st the boss (only in that office 1 day a week) things that the paper work was done and the recruiters says we are working on it so they say I can start on the job I was hired for but I can do some stuff and help out the people there a bit. But while doing that I was doing some stuff the wrong way but it takes a week for the boss to telling me that so I end up pissing off people for a week by doing stuff wrong but it's was only some people where pissed off and there may of been as I was from a staffing firm and not working there as a employee of that office.</p><p>2st there was a higher up boss that was only in the office 2 week a mouth and 2 week out of state and I did spent some time with him and one of thingd he told me to due was switch out a old hub with a switch and that pissed off some boss of a other part of office. But that was taken care of by him. (We also had a system for them in a storage room but other people in my team did not know about / what it was for some days as well I found it while clearing up the storage rooms) He also let keep a laptop in office with some training manuals on it but do poor team team communication I was not able to use it as we told the 1st boss but the team did not find out / was not told and I need to hide it in the storage room and only get to read them for a few min a day.</p><p>3st On day I left alone in office as the other team people when off site and later the 1st boss said I was not to be left alone like that the next week.</p><p>4st I was to look over what the other team members where doing as part of the job but there where pushing me off of them even after the 1st boss said to do that so I just ending doing more clearing up the storage rooms and taking boxes / other trash down to dumpster bins.</p><p>and after about a mouth of that the staffing contract has ended and they are working on a reup and after about 2 months of that it came back with a lot less people.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>staffing firms are clue less at time to point of pay people to sit a office to have little to no work to do ( and stuff that they having you doing grunt stuff that is not the job they hired you for ) as they are waiting on paper work to go though But there is a lot more to that story.1st the boss ( only in that office 1 day a week ) things that the paper work was done and the recruiters says we are working on it so they say I can start on the job I was hired for but I can do some stuff and help out the people there a bit .
But while doing that I was doing some stuff the wrong way but it takes a week for the boss to telling me that so I end up pissing off people for a week by doing stuff wrong but it 's was only some people where pissed off and there may of been as I was from a staffing firm and not working there as a employee of that office.2st there was a higher up boss that was only in the office 2 week a mouth and 2 week out of state and I did spent some time with him and one of thingd he told me to due was switch out a old hub with a switch and that pissed off some boss of a other part of office .
But that was taken care of by him .
( We also had a system for them in a storage room but other people in my team did not know about / what it was for some days as well I found it while clearing up the storage rooms ) He also let keep a laptop in office with some training manuals on it but do poor team team communication I was not able to use it as we told the 1st boss but the team did not find out / was not told and I need to hide it in the storage room and only get to read them for a few min a day.3st On day I left alone in office as the other team people when off site and later the 1st boss said I was not to be left alone like that the next week.4st I was to look over what the other team members where doing as part of the job but there where pushing me off of them even after the 1st boss said to do that so I just ending doing more clearing up the storage rooms and taking boxes / other trash down to dumpster bins.and after about a mouth of that the staffing contract has ended and they are working on a reup and after about 2 months of that it came back with a lot less people .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>staffing firms are clue less at time to point of pay people to sit a office to have little to no work to do (and stuff that they having you doing grunt stuff that is not the job they hired you for) as they are waiting on paper work to go though But there is a lot more to that story.1st the boss (only in that office 1 day a week) things that the paper work was done and the recruiters says we are working on it so they say I can start on the job I was hired for but I can do some stuff and help out the people there a bit.
But while doing that I was doing some stuff the wrong way but it takes a week for the boss to telling me that so I end up pissing off people for a week by doing stuff wrong but it's was only some people where pissed off and there may of been as I was from a staffing firm and not working there as a employee of that office.2st there was a higher up boss that was only in the office 2 week a mouth and 2 week out of state and I did spent some time with him and one of thingd he told me to due was switch out a old hub with a switch and that pissed off some boss of a other part of office.
But that was taken care of by him.
(We also had a system for them in a storage room but other people in my team did not know about / what it was for some days as well I found it while clearing up the storage rooms) He also let keep a laptop in office with some training manuals on it but do poor team team communication I was not able to use it as we told the 1st boss but the team did not find out / was not told and I need to hide it in the storage room and only get to read them for a few min a day.3st On day I left alone in office as the other team people when off site and later the 1st boss said I was not to be left alone like that the next week.4st I was to look over what the other team members where doing as part of the job but there where pushing me off of them even after the 1st boss said to do that so I just ending doing more clearing up the storage rooms and taking boxes / other trash down to dumpster bins.and after about a mouth of that the staffing contract has ended and they are working on a reup and after about 2 months of that it came back with a lot less people.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650768</id>
	<title>Try working for the government.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269773940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If the private sector wont hire, maybe the government will?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If the private sector wont hire , maybe the government will ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the private sector wont hire, maybe the government will?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650596</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651032</id>
	<title>Sheesh</title>
	<author>deisama</author>
	<datestamp>1269775440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I hope you don't pay to much attention to this guy. The world is not nearly as dark as he's proclaiming.</p><p>I'm going to tell you a fact that you may or not find comforting.</p><p>9 out of 10 programmers who are applying for jobs suck. I'm probably being too generous here, but whatever. I've interviewed people at Microsoft, and I've interviewed people at small start ups.  Doesn't matter, most interviewee's are just terrible. I don't blame this guy for being jaded. If you had to interview crappy programmer after crappy programmer, you would be too.</p><p>BUT if you're the 1 out of 10 who's actually good, than you have a very bright future ahead of you. Companies are always hiring, and if you're truely talented, they'll often hire you even if they weren't planning on it. No good company lets a great programmer get away when they find one.<br>Entry level jobs have a lot of advantages, in that you're still new, and have no idea what you're actually worth. People are inheritantly loyal to the first company they work for, so they tend to stick around for a lot longer. Plus you get to train them to your style of programming.</p><p>Now in terms of actually getting those jobs...</p><p>Luckily for you, HR is ridiculously easy to get around. They don't know technology, and you can use that to your advantage. School, GPA, hobbies, cover letter,  prior non programming work experience, awards... none of that matters. The only thing they care about is the programming buzzwords you have in there.</p><p>Right now, the big one is FLEX, or AS3. Learn that. Put it on your resume. There's a big shortage there, because most people who learn Flash are graphic designers with a minimal programming skill set. If you're a programmer with a minimal graphic design skill set, they'll love you.</p><p>Find out what else is "hot" but becareful not to confuse programmer trendy, with what's actually in demand. (Nobody in HR cares about Ruby on Rails).</p><p>Just pretend HR is nothing but a search engine that scans your resumes for keywords, and you'll be fine.</p><p>Now as far as experience goes. Work on an open source project. There's really no excuse not to. Just think about all the programs you use that are open source, find something that you'd like to change, and than go about learning how to change it. Don't "apply" and ask "what can I do to help". Just jump in and have at it. It's way easier to work on a project when you're doing something you want done anyway.</p><p>Good luck!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I hope you do n't pay to much attention to this guy .
The world is not nearly as dark as he 's proclaiming.I 'm going to tell you a fact that you may or not find comforting.9 out of 10 programmers who are applying for jobs suck .
I 'm probably being too generous here , but whatever .
I 've interviewed people at Microsoft , and I 've interviewed people at small start ups .
Does n't matter , most interviewee 's are just terrible .
I do n't blame this guy for being jaded .
If you had to interview crappy programmer after crappy programmer , you would be too.BUT if you 're the 1 out of 10 who 's actually good , than you have a very bright future ahead of you .
Companies are always hiring , and if you 're truely talented , they 'll often hire you even if they were n't planning on it .
No good company lets a great programmer get away when they find one.Entry level jobs have a lot of advantages , in that you 're still new , and have no idea what you 're actually worth .
People are inheritantly loyal to the first company they work for , so they tend to stick around for a lot longer .
Plus you get to train them to your style of programming.Now in terms of actually getting those jobs...Luckily for you , HR is ridiculously easy to get around .
They do n't know technology , and you can use that to your advantage .
School , GPA , hobbies , cover letter , prior non programming work experience , awards... none of that matters .
The only thing they care about is the programming buzzwords you have in there.Right now , the big one is FLEX , or AS3 .
Learn that .
Put it on your resume .
There 's a big shortage there , because most people who learn Flash are graphic designers with a minimal programming skill set .
If you 're a programmer with a minimal graphic design skill set , they 'll love you.Find out what else is " hot " but becareful not to confuse programmer trendy , with what 's actually in demand .
( Nobody in HR cares about Ruby on Rails ) .Just pretend HR is nothing but a search engine that scans your resumes for keywords , and you 'll be fine.Now as far as experience goes .
Work on an open source project .
There 's really no excuse not to .
Just think about all the programs you use that are open source , find something that you 'd like to change , and than go about learning how to change it .
Do n't " apply " and ask " what can I do to help " .
Just jump in and have at it .
It 's way easier to work on a project when you 're doing something you want done anyway.Good luck !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I hope you don't pay to much attention to this guy.
The world is not nearly as dark as he's proclaiming.I'm going to tell you a fact that you may or not find comforting.9 out of 10 programmers who are applying for jobs suck.
I'm probably being too generous here, but whatever.
I've interviewed people at Microsoft, and I've interviewed people at small start ups.
Doesn't matter, most interviewee's are just terrible.
I don't blame this guy for being jaded.
If you had to interview crappy programmer after crappy programmer, you would be too.BUT if you're the 1 out of 10 who's actually good, than you have a very bright future ahead of you.
Companies are always hiring, and if you're truely talented, they'll often hire you even if they weren't planning on it.
No good company lets a great programmer get away when they find one.Entry level jobs have a lot of advantages, in that you're still new, and have no idea what you're actually worth.
People are inheritantly loyal to the first company they work for, so they tend to stick around for a lot longer.
Plus you get to train them to your style of programming.Now in terms of actually getting those jobs...Luckily for you, HR is ridiculously easy to get around.
They don't know technology, and you can use that to your advantage.
School, GPA, hobbies, cover letter,  prior non programming work experience, awards... none of that matters.
The only thing they care about is the programming buzzwords you have in there.Right now, the big one is FLEX, or AS3.
Learn that.
Put it on your resume.
There's a big shortage there, because most people who learn Flash are graphic designers with a minimal programming skill set.
If you're a programmer with a minimal graphic design skill set, they'll love you.Find out what else is "hot" but becareful not to confuse programmer trendy, with what's actually in demand.
(Nobody in HR cares about Ruby on Rails).Just pretend HR is nothing but a search engine that scans your resumes for keywords, and you'll be fine.Now as far as experience goes.
Work on an open source project.
There's really no excuse not to.
Just think about all the programs you use that are open source, find something that you'd like to change, and than go about learning how to change it.
Don't "apply" and ask "what can I do to help".
Just jump in and have at it.
It's way easier to work on a project when you're doing something you want done anyway.Good luck!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650362</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31660442</id>
	<title>Re:To that I'll add</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269891960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> That's why we still have total bullshit like literature degrees at 4 year institutions (I like books, but getting a 4-year degree in book reports is nuts).</p></div><p>I have a BA in English Rhetoric.  Talk about useless.  What am I doing now? I'm tech support at a university.  How did I get here? Good people skills and knowing certain people who help me get my foot in the door at one university, and then I found a better job at another university and was able to use my experience as my selling point (not the English degree).  And the first university I worked at SUCKED.  Like many people have said before, it's beautiful dream that you will get a nice entry-level job out of college.  I think the only way to do that is become a CPA and do a  5-year bachelor/master's program in accounting.  My friend did that and at 24 years old had a 60k/year job upon graduation.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's why we still have total bullshit like literature degrees at 4 year institutions ( I like books , but getting a 4-year degree in book reports is nuts ) .I have a BA in English Rhetoric .
Talk about useless .
What am I doing now ?
I 'm tech support at a university .
How did I get here ?
Good people skills and knowing certain people who help me get my foot in the door at one university , and then I found a better job at another university and was able to use my experience as my selling point ( not the English degree ) .
And the first university I worked at SUCKED .
Like many people have said before , it 's beautiful dream that you will get a nice entry-level job out of college .
I think the only way to do that is become a CPA and do a 5-year bachelor/master 's program in accounting .
My friend did that and at 24 years old had a 60k/year job upon graduation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> That's why we still have total bullshit like literature degrees at 4 year institutions (I like books, but getting a 4-year degree in book reports is nuts).I have a BA in English Rhetoric.
Talk about useless.
What am I doing now?
I'm tech support at a university.
How did I get here?
Good people skills and knowing certain people who help me get my foot in the door at one university, and then I found a better job at another university and was able to use my experience as my selling point (not the English degree).
And the first university I worked at SUCKED.
Like many people have said before, it's beautiful dream that you will get a nice entry-level job out of college.
I think the only way to do that is become a CPA and do a  5-year bachelor/master's program in accounting.
My friend did that and at 24 years old had a 60k/year job upon graduation.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652102</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31656288</id>
	<title>Re:It is not a great time</title>
	<author>cervo</author>
	<datestamp>1269873840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>That's exactly what happened in 2002 when I was looking for a job.  All the "entry level jobs" were sucked up by experienced people willing to work for less.  Not only that, but some "entry level jobs" were posted demanding 5 years experience in language x, 5 years experience in language y, 3 years experience in language z, etc."  Obviously the "entry level" job postings were tailored to attract these more experienced people that are unemployed...even though the salary would be an entry level salary at like 30,000 or 35,000.<br> <br>
Anyway I think the last laugh went to me because many of these more experienced guys jumped ship as soon as the economy improved.  Whereas if there was room for advancement a real college student may have stuck around and worked for a few more years.  Although most companies I have worked for treat IT like a disposable commodity.  You can always toss out an IT worker and get another one and plug him in.  Any knowledge of the company doesn't matter in IT.  In that case the companies don't care about high turnover even though they should.  Also many of them are quite content to hire you and keep you doing the same job year after year.  And to try to keep your salary as low as possible inventing different excuses.  In that case often it pays to switch companies and get another 10,000 or 15,000 dollars.</htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's exactly what happened in 2002 when I was looking for a job .
All the " entry level jobs " were sucked up by experienced people willing to work for less .
Not only that , but some " entry level jobs " were posted demanding 5 years experience in language x , 5 years experience in language y , 3 years experience in language z , etc .
" Obviously the " entry level " job postings were tailored to attract these more experienced people that are unemployed...even though the salary would be an entry level salary at like 30,000 or 35,000 .
Anyway I think the last laugh went to me because many of these more experienced guys jumped ship as soon as the economy improved .
Whereas if there was room for advancement a real college student may have stuck around and worked for a few more years .
Although most companies I have worked for treat IT like a disposable commodity .
You can always toss out an IT worker and get another one and plug him in .
Any knowledge of the company does n't matter in IT .
In that case the companies do n't care about high turnover even though they should .
Also many of them are quite content to hire you and keep you doing the same job year after year .
And to try to keep your salary as low as possible inventing different excuses .
In that case often it pays to switch companies and get another 10,000 or 15,000 dollars .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's exactly what happened in 2002 when I was looking for a job.
All the "entry level jobs" were sucked up by experienced people willing to work for less.
Not only that, but some "entry level jobs" were posted demanding 5 years experience in language x, 5 years experience in language y, 3 years experience in language z, etc.
"  Obviously the "entry level" job postings were tailored to attract these more experienced people that are unemployed...even though the salary would be an entry level salary at like 30,000 or 35,000.
Anyway I think the last laugh went to me because many of these more experienced guys jumped ship as soon as the economy improved.
Whereas if there was room for advancement a real college student may have stuck around and worked for a few more years.
Although most companies I have worked for treat IT like a disposable commodity.
You can always toss out an IT worker and get another one and plug him in.
Any knowledge of the company doesn't matter in IT.
In that case the companies don't care about high turnover even though they should.
Also many of them are quite content to hire you and keep you doing the same job year after year.
And to try to keep your salary as low as possible inventing different excuses.
In that case often it pays to switch companies and get another 10,000 or 15,000 dollars.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650316</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652714</id>
	<title>Welcome to I.T.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269790800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The I.T. profession welcomes you in the customary way.  Thank you for submitting your article to Slashdot.  It will not further your career, but at least it confirms you as an official entrant into the profession.  Unfortunately your qualifications do not meet our needs at this time.  Your application will be kept on file for a predetermined specified duration, and during that time, if any positions arise for which you are qualified, you will be contacted.  We wish you the best of luck in your future endeavours.  Sincerely,  the management.<br>Now go piss off and don't bother us again, you unqualified little letch!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The I.T .
profession welcomes you in the customary way .
Thank you for submitting your article to Slashdot .
It will not further your career , but at least it confirms you as an official entrant into the profession .
Unfortunately your qualifications do not meet our needs at this time .
Your application will be kept on file for a predetermined specified duration , and during that time , if any positions arise for which you are qualified , you will be contacted .
We wish you the best of luck in your future endeavours .
Sincerely , the management.Now go piss off and do n't bother us again , you unqualified little letch !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The I.T.
profession welcomes you in the customary way.
Thank you for submitting your article to Slashdot.
It will not further your career, but at least it confirms you as an official entrant into the profession.
Unfortunately your qualifications do not meet our needs at this time.
Your application will be kept on file for a predetermined specified duration, and during that time, if any positions arise for which you are qualified, you will be contacted.
We wish you the best of luck in your future endeavours.
Sincerely,  the management.Now go piss off and don't bother us again, you unqualified little letch!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650834</id>
	<title>Re:Missing something</title>
	<author>mjwalshe</author>
	<datestamp>1269774360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>this is rude not insightfull</htmltext>
<tokenext>this is rude not insightfull</tokentext>
<sentencetext>this is rude not insightfull</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650206</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651056</id>
	<title>Re:It is not a great time</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269775620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And if you've already graduated college and didn't intern?</p><p>No shame in being unemployed and living with my parents at the age of 30 I guess.  At least the food is good.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And if you 've already graduated college and did n't intern ? No shame in being unemployed and living with my parents at the age of 30 I guess .
At least the food is good .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And if you've already graduated college and didn't intern?No shame in being unemployed and living with my parents at the age of 30 I guess.
At least the food is good.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650316</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650380</id>
	<title>Aim low</title>
	<author>rwwyatt</author>
	<datestamp>1269771420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
  I am probably one of the most awkward individuals in HR interview settings.  I aimed for a job that I knew I could get, and I excelled at that job which allowed me to move on to better roles.
</p><p>
  How are your other skills?  Process Management, Configuration Management
</p><p>
  You must emphasize all skills in addition to programming.  I would say 30\% of my time is dealing with QA aspects.
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I am probably one of the most awkward individuals in HR interview settings .
I aimed for a job that I knew I could get , and I excelled at that job which allowed me to move on to better roles .
How are your other skills ?
Process Management , Configuration Management You must emphasize all skills in addition to programming .
I would say 30 \ % of my time is dealing with QA aspects .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
  I am probably one of the most awkward individuals in HR interview settings.
I aimed for a job that I knew I could get, and I excelled at that job which allowed me to move on to better roles.
How are your other skills?
Process Management, Configuration Management

  You must emphasize all skills in addition to programming.
I would say 30\% of my time is dealing with QA aspects.
</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31653868</id>
	<title>90\% of programmers can't</title>
	<author>bradley13</author>
	<datestamp>1269803820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Timothy probably does underestimate what he doesn't know. And his homepage is <i>not</i> what he wants potential employers to see. Enough people have jumped on him for this.

</p><p>What no one seems to have mentioned - that the author refers to - is that 90\% of so-called programmers are, in fact, not very good. It will be a shame when all IDEs automatically generate getters and setters, because there are a lot of programmers out there who really shouldn't be allowed to do anything much more difficult than that.

</p><p>Maybe - hopefully - Timothy is one of the 10\% who will be really good, once he gets some experience under his belt...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Timothy probably does underestimate what he does n't know .
And his homepage is not what he wants potential employers to see .
Enough people have jumped on him for this .
What no one seems to have mentioned - that the author refers to - is that 90 \ % of so-called programmers are , in fact , not very good .
It will be a shame when all IDEs automatically generate getters and setters , because there are a lot of programmers out there who really should n't be allowed to do anything much more difficult than that .
Maybe - hopefully - Timothy is one of the 10 \ % who will be really good , once he gets some experience under his belt.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Timothy probably does underestimate what he doesn't know.
And his homepage is not what he wants potential employers to see.
Enough people have jumped on him for this.
What no one seems to have mentioned - that the author refers to - is that 90\% of so-called programmers are, in fact, not very good.
It will be a shame when all IDEs automatically generate getters and setters, because there are a lot of programmers out there who really shouldn't be allowed to do anything much more difficult than that.
Maybe - hopefully - Timothy is one of the 10\% who will be really good, once he gets some experience under his belt...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651794</id>
	<title>You don't get jobs by sending a resume to HR</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269781860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is where you are showing your inexperience. In this economy, HR gets thousands of resumes for any opening, and yours will not be the best one. (You have no experience. That's something that HR will filter on, since they don't know who is "good").</p><p>It's about who you know. If you don't know many people, start working on it.</p><p>First, tell everyone you know you are looking for a job. Ask them to keep their eyes out for you. Ask them to ask their friends. Post it on facebook. Many people don't tell their friends/family when they are hunting for a job. The technical term for this kind of behavior is "unemployed".</p><p>Second, increase the number of people you know in your chosen field. Hit meetup.com, local ACM chapter, criagslist, local event site, etc, for any programming/tech related groups in your area. Go to them. Talk to people. I've gotten more jobs by this method, than all others combined.</p><p>Third, spend your time well. Work on an open source project, develop your own website. Hell, launch a commercial product. This is so you have something technical to talk about when you interview.</p><p>Fourth, have an interesting life, outside of programming. This is something else to talk about in the interview, and at the tech groups. Be interesting, and people will remember you and want to talk to you</p><p>If you get an interview:</p><p>Show your interests. If they ask what you like doing, tell them. I don't mean tell them who you vote for, or where you go to church, I mean technical areas you like playing in. Even if it doesn't match the job saying "I like physics simulations", beats the hell out of "anything, I don't care". Even if the job is accounting software.</p><p>Do research. You should know what the company does</p><p>Ask questions. No one wants to hire a lump. (Ok, some people do, but you don't want to work there. And they are in a minority)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is where you are showing your inexperience .
In this economy , HR gets thousands of resumes for any opening , and yours will not be the best one .
( You have no experience .
That 's something that HR will filter on , since they do n't know who is " good " ) .It 's about who you know .
If you do n't know many people , start working on it.First , tell everyone you know you are looking for a job .
Ask them to keep their eyes out for you .
Ask them to ask their friends .
Post it on facebook .
Many people do n't tell their friends/family when they are hunting for a job .
The technical term for this kind of behavior is " unemployed " .Second , increase the number of people you know in your chosen field .
Hit meetup.com , local ACM chapter , criagslist , local event site , etc , for any programming/tech related groups in your area .
Go to them .
Talk to people .
I 've gotten more jobs by this method , than all others combined.Third , spend your time well .
Work on an open source project , develop your own website .
Hell , launch a commercial product .
This is so you have something technical to talk about when you interview.Fourth , have an interesting life , outside of programming .
This is something else to talk about in the interview , and at the tech groups .
Be interesting , and people will remember you and want to talk to youIf you get an interview : Show your interests .
If they ask what you like doing , tell them .
I do n't mean tell them who you vote for , or where you go to church , I mean technical areas you like playing in .
Even if it does n't match the job saying " I like physics simulations " , beats the hell out of " anything , I do n't care " .
Even if the job is accounting software.Do research .
You should know what the company doesAsk questions .
No one wants to hire a lump .
( Ok , some people do , but you do n't want to work there .
And they are in a minority )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is where you are showing your inexperience.
In this economy, HR gets thousands of resumes for any opening, and yours will not be the best one.
(You have no experience.
That's something that HR will filter on, since they don't know who is "good").It's about who you know.
If you don't know many people, start working on it.First, tell everyone you know you are looking for a job.
Ask them to keep their eyes out for you.
Ask them to ask their friends.
Post it on facebook.
Many people don't tell their friends/family when they are hunting for a job.
The technical term for this kind of behavior is "unemployed".Second, increase the number of people you know in your chosen field.
Hit meetup.com, local ACM chapter, criagslist, local event site, etc, for any programming/tech related groups in your area.
Go to them.
Talk to people.
I've gotten more jobs by this method, than all others combined.Third, spend your time well.
Work on an open source project, develop your own website.
Hell, launch a commercial product.
This is so you have something technical to talk about when you interview.Fourth, have an interesting life, outside of programming.
This is something else to talk about in the interview, and at the tech groups.
Be interesting, and people will remember you and want to talk to youIf you get an interview:Show your interests.
If they ask what you like doing, tell them.
I don't mean tell them who you vote for, or where you go to church, I mean technical areas you like playing in.
Even if it doesn't match the job saying "I like physics simulations", beats the hell out of "anything, I don't care".
Even if the job is accounting software.Do research.
You should know what the company doesAsk questions.
No one wants to hire a lump.
(Ok, some people do, but you don't want to work there.
And they are in a minority)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31655652</id>
	<title>Quick tips</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269869940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Greetings,</p><p>I hire at many levels, without using a recruiting or scouting agency, from entry-level coders to senior software engineers. Here are some tips for getting yourself hired to my entry-level position:</p><p>* bring some code with you<br>* work in open source and be ready to point it out to me<br>* know your language well<br>* bring stories about your ability to learn quickly, do what you're told (in the sense of being given a spec and fulfilling it), and think for yourself<br>* have a good GPA. (I have this one last on purpose. It's not a deal-breaker, but might be a deal-maker)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Greetings,I hire at many levels , without using a recruiting or scouting agency , from entry-level coders to senior software engineers .
Here are some tips for getting yourself hired to my entry-level position : * bring some code with you * work in open source and be ready to point it out to me * know your language well * bring stories about your ability to learn quickly , do what you 're told ( in the sense of being given a spec and fulfilling it ) , and think for yourself * have a good GPA .
( I have this one last on purpose .
It 's not a deal-breaker , but might be a deal-maker )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Greetings,I hire at many levels, without using a recruiting or scouting agency, from entry-level coders to senior software engineers.
Here are some tips for getting yourself hired to my entry-level position:* bring some code with you* work in open source and be ready to point it out to me* know your language well* bring stories about your ability to learn quickly, do what you're told (in the sense of being given a spec and fulfilling it), and think for yourself* have a good GPA.
(I have this one last on purpose.
It's not a deal-breaker, but might be a deal-maker)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31665944</id>
	<title>OUTSOURCED!</title>
	<author>the.zlogrian.lax</author>
	<datestamp>1269878400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Go to India. Wait at a bus stop. Some random person from an HR agency will recruit you for XYZMantra Software Solutions. For a pittance and stressful competition, you can have that dream coding/developing job. Indians are great at coding and very poor. Americans are smart. So they outsource. Even the Literature graduates and housewives. I live here so I know. My brother was an SCJP at the age of 11 and interned at Sun Micro at 12. He's now onto a UMich PhD in computer networks. I use coding(C) to predict what is most likely to happen in a manufacturing process before it is physically set up.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Go to India .
Wait at a bus stop .
Some random person from an HR agency will recruit you for XYZMantra Software Solutions .
For a pittance and stressful competition , you can have that dream coding/developing job .
Indians are great at coding and very poor .
Americans are smart .
So they outsource .
Even the Literature graduates and housewives .
I live here so I know .
My brother was an SCJP at the age of 11 and interned at Sun Micro at 12 .
He 's now onto a UMich PhD in computer networks .
I use coding ( C ) to predict what is most likely to happen in a manufacturing process before it is physically set up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Go to India.
Wait at a bus stop.
Some random person from an HR agency will recruit you for XYZMantra Software Solutions.
For a pittance and stressful competition, you can have that dream coding/developing job.
Indians are great at coding and very poor.
Americans are smart.
So they outsource.
Even the Literature graduates and housewives.
I live here so I know.
My brother was an SCJP at the age of 11 and interned at Sun Micro at 12.
He's now onto a UMich PhD in computer networks.
I use coding(C) to predict what is most likely to happen in a manufacturing process before it is physically set up.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650322</id>
	<title>It's not about what you know...</title>
	<author>lucky130</author>
	<datestamp>1269770940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...but about who you know. Referrals from friends are the best way to get your foot in the door for entry-level positions, then experience will get you in the door for future jobs.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...but about who you know .
Referrals from friends are the best way to get your foot in the door for entry-level positions , then experience will get you in the door for future jobs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...but about who you know.
Referrals from friends are the best way to get your foot in the door for entry-level positions, then experience will get you in the door for future jobs.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652186</id>
	<title>Why not get involved</title>
	<author>Stumbles</author>
	<datestamp>1269785940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>with an Open Source project? For example, KDE has a "bugsquad" and seek those interested in contributing. At least do that you can make a presence for yourself which may/or not lead to something. <a href="http://techbase.kde.org/Contribute/Bugsquad" title="kde.org">http://techbase.kde.org/Contribute/Bugsquad</a> [kde.org]</htmltext>
<tokenext>with an Open Source project ?
For example , KDE has a " bugsquad " and seek those interested in contributing .
At least do that you can make a presence for yourself which may/or not lead to something .
http : //techbase.kde.org/Contribute/Bugsquad [ kde.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>with an Open Source project?
For example, KDE has a "bugsquad" and seek those interested in contributing.
At least do that you can make a presence for yourself which may/or not lead to something.
http://techbase.kde.org/Contribute/Bugsquad [kde.org]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650538</id>
	<title>Nepotism</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269772500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Nepotism. The nice word for this is "connections". Do you know anyone who knows anyone who knows anyone (etc.) who runs their own software company, or works at one in a high-enough position that hiring interns or entry-level, underpaid slaves falls under their authority? Find these people and get your foot in the door.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Nepotism .
The nice word for this is " connections " .
Do you know anyone who knows anyone who knows anyone ( etc .
) who runs their own software company , or works at one in a high-enough position that hiring interns or entry-level , underpaid slaves falls under their authority ?
Find these people and get your foot in the door .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nepotism.
The nice word for this is "connections".
Do you know anyone who knows anyone who knows anyone (etc.
) who runs their own software company, or works at one in a high-enough position that hiring interns or entry-level, underpaid slaves falls under their authority?
Find these people and get your foot in the door.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650470</id>
	<title>I've been both looking for work and for staff</title>
	<author>jimicus</author>
	<datestamp>1269771960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You haven't really discussed how you went about your approaches in any real detail, so excuse me if I give you a few pointers:</p><p>1.  HR departments (particularly in big companies) are mostly there to keep outsiders out.  They seldom accept speculative applications and forward them to the relevant department - yet at any given point in time, many departments within organisations are thinking "We could do with someone else here to help deal with XXX, but we need to get around to writing the job spec, get hiring authority sorted out, contact agents/advertise and ask HR to accept CVs with the following qualifications....".  If you can find companies in that kind of position and speak to the person who's thinking that, you'll bypass much of the HR bullsh*t.  For some odd reason, this process can actually be easier than going in the "accepted" way of writing to HR and a hell of a lot more productive.</p><p>2.  Regardless of whether you're applying speculatively or for an advertised post, <b>NEVER</b> send out a standard CV/covering letter.  I promise you no matter how much effort you put in they stand out a mile.  Figure out what the company is looking for (and if you can't figure this out, why do you want to work there?) and write covering letter/tweak CV to suit.</p><p>3.  Avoid agencies.  This is my own personal experience, take it with as much salt as you feel it requires.  But most employment agencies charge a small fortune, no employer wants to pay that if they can avoid it.  Particularly not when they're taking on a graduate, who may or may not be any good in the real world.  At the end of the day, the agent is being paid by the employer and they don't really care if you get the job or not, just so long as the person who gets the job is someone who they put forward.  You'll waste hours talking to these people on the phone who insist they can find you work, that your best bet is to ask them to market you, that they're the solution to all the world's problems.  It's complete fiction, but they're telling you what you want to hear.</p><p>4.  Keep active in both your job hunting and (if it goes on a long time) something relevant to the job.  Any potential employer will view how seriously you're taking a job hunt as a guide to how seriously you would take the job - if you have been scratching your bum since the last interview 3 weeks ago, they'll assume you'll do the same thing when they're paying you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You have n't really discussed how you went about your approaches in any real detail , so excuse me if I give you a few pointers : 1 .
HR departments ( particularly in big companies ) are mostly there to keep outsiders out .
They seldom accept speculative applications and forward them to the relevant department - yet at any given point in time , many departments within organisations are thinking " We could do with someone else here to help deal with XXX , but we need to get around to writing the job spec , get hiring authority sorted out , contact agents/advertise and ask HR to accept CVs with the following qualifications.... " .
If you can find companies in that kind of position and speak to the person who 's thinking that , you 'll bypass much of the HR bullsh * t. For some odd reason , this process can actually be easier than going in the " accepted " way of writing to HR and a hell of a lot more productive.2 .
Regardless of whether you 're applying speculatively or for an advertised post , NEVER send out a standard CV/covering letter .
I promise you no matter how much effort you put in they stand out a mile .
Figure out what the company is looking for ( and if you ca n't figure this out , why do you want to work there ?
) and write covering letter/tweak CV to suit.3 .
Avoid agencies .
This is my own personal experience , take it with as much salt as you feel it requires .
But most employment agencies charge a small fortune , no employer wants to pay that if they can avoid it .
Particularly not when they 're taking on a graduate , who may or may not be any good in the real world .
At the end of the day , the agent is being paid by the employer and they do n't really care if you get the job or not , just so long as the person who gets the job is someone who they put forward .
You 'll waste hours talking to these people on the phone who insist they can find you work , that your best bet is to ask them to market you , that they 're the solution to all the world 's problems .
It 's complete fiction , but they 're telling you what you want to hear.4 .
Keep active in both your job hunting and ( if it goes on a long time ) something relevant to the job .
Any potential employer will view how seriously you 're taking a job hunt as a guide to how seriously you would take the job - if you have been scratching your bum since the last interview 3 weeks ago , they 'll assume you 'll do the same thing when they 're paying you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You haven't really discussed how you went about your approaches in any real detail, so excuse me if I give you a few pointers:1.
HR departments (particularly in big companies) are mostly there to keep outsiders out.
They seldom accept speculative applications and forward them to the relevant department - yet at any given point in time, many departments within organisations are thinking "We could do with someone else here to help deal with XXX, but we need to get around to writing the job spec, get hiring authority sorted out, contact agents/advertise and ask HR to accept CVs with the following qualifications....".
If you can find companies in that kind of position and speak to the person who's thinking that, you'll bypass much of the HR bullsh*t.  For some odd reason, this process can actually be easier than going in the "accepted" way of writing to HR and a hell of a lot more productive.2.
Regardless of whether you're applying speculatively or for an advertised post, NEVER send out a standard CV/covering letter.
I promise you no matter how much effort you put in they stand out a mile.
Figure out what the company is looking for (and if you can't figure this out, why do you want to work there?
) and write covering letter/tweak CV to suit.3.
Avoid agencies.
This is my own personal experience, take it with as much salt as you feel it requires.
But most employment agencies charge a small fortune, no employer wants to pay that if they can avoid it.
Particularly not when they're taking on a graduate, who may or may not be any good in the real world.
At the end of the day, the agent is being paid by the employer and they don't really care if you get the job or not, just so long as the person who gets the job is someone who they put forward.
You'll waste hours talking to these people on the phone who insist they can find you work, that your best bet is to ask them to market you, that they're the solution to all the world's problems.
It's complete fiction, but they're telling you what you want to hear.4.
Keep active in both your job hunting and (if it goes on a long time) something relevant to the job.
Any potential employer will view how seriously you're taking a job hunt as a guide to how seriously you would take the job - if you have been scratching your bum since the last interview 3 weeks ago, they'll assume you'll do the same thing when they're paying you.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650524</id>
	<title>Re:Missing something</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269772380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>It appears that you missed some level of social networking during school. I volunteered to work for the sysadmin at the community college I go to...I graduate in may and will go to uni in the fall, in the meantime, he put in a good word for me and it helped me get an internship at a sizeable area hospital that will look *great* on my resume (if they dont hire me when i finish uni)</p></div><p>Why is the parent modded +5 insightful?  Let me translate this from 'holier art than thou' to English</p><blockquote><div><p> Look at me, look at what <b>I</b> did, which you obviously didn't do.  I'm so much cooler than you, because <b>I</b> did social networking, while you probably slaved away in your computer lab.  I had someone put in a good reference for me.  So as you can plainly see, it has nothing to do with your skills entering the job market, but the fact that I had a few beers with someone that would vouch for me.  Now bow down to me <i>playing the game</i></p></div> </blockquote><p>Way to be helpful, might as well utter that old adage, "You should have thought about it before."</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It appears that you missed some level of social networking during school .
I volunteered to work for the sysadmin at the community college I go to...I graduate in may and will go to uni in the fall , in the meantime , he put in a good word for me and it helped me get an internship at a sizeable area hospital that will look * great * on my resume ( if they dont hire me when i finish uni ) Why is the parent modded + 5 insightful ?
Let me translate this from 'holier art than thou ' to English Look at me , look at what I did , which you obviously did n't do .
I 'm so much cooler than you , because I did social networking , while you probably slaved away in your computer lab .
I had someone put in a good reference for me .
So as you can plainly see , it has nothing to do with your skills entering the job market , but the fact that I had a few beers with someone that would vouch for me .
Now bow down to me playing the game Way to be helpful , might as well utter that old adage , " You should have thought about it before .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It appears that you missed some level of social networking during school.
I volunteered to work for the sysadmin at the community college I go to...I graduate in may and will go to uni in the fall, in the meantime, he put in a good word for me and it helped me get an internship at a sizeable area hospital that will look *great* on my resume (if they dont hire me when i finish uni)Why is the parent modded +5 insightful?
Let me translate this from 'holier art than thou' to English Look at me, look at what I did, which you obviously didn't do.
I'm so much cooler than you, because I did social networking, while you probably slaved away in your computer lab.
I had someone put in a good reference for me.
So as you can plainly see, it has nothing to do with your skills entering the job market, but the fact that I had a few beers with someone that would vouch for me.
Now bow down to me playing the game Way to be helpful, might as well utter that old adage, "You should have thought about it before.
"
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650206</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652104</id>
	<title>Re:Apply</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269784980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Quoting a recent movie:</p><p>"Lower your expectations, that's how you are going to be happy."</p><p>- Derek 'The Tooth Fairy' Thompson,</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Quoting a recent movie : " Lower your expectations , that 's how you are going to be happy .
" - Derek 'The Tooth Fairy ' Thompson,</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Quoting a recent movie:"Lower your expectations, that's how you are going to be happy.
"- Derek 'The Tooth Fairy' Thompson,</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650362</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31653942</id>
	<title>Coding tests are often under-used</title>
	<author>LostMyBeaver</author>
	<datestamp>1269804840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>As a senior level developer that has in the past worked at major software firms on key projects, I often tend to find myself a bit annoyed when encountering a coding test. It has an unfortunate effect of tipping the negotiating scales in favor of the employer before an interview even happens. However for entry level positions, they are HIGHLY useful.<br><br>I regularly mentor "The New Guy", a guy who just finished a masters or Ph.D. in signal processing, mathematics, computer science, etc... and more often than not, they can't code anything more complex than a 50 line simulation which is barely readable. Of course, these are really bright guys and can be pushed gently in the right direction very easily, so I take the opportunity to get them started as quickly as possible, after all, the faster they learn, the more work I can send in their direction.<br><br>I applied for a position at Skype a few years back and everything went well up until they sent me a "coding test" which consisted of making a simple HTTP server which would handle database requests using the PostgreSQL API. It was a fun project, but most importantly, it said "we know you've been programming for 15 years as lead developer on major projects. But can you code?" Initially I was a bit annoyed by this and I decided not to bother with the position as I don't like negotiating terms of employment with an employer who takes the upper hand so early. But, for entry level positions this opportunity could really open up a great deal of positions to guys who CAN program but don't know how to get their foot in the door.<br><br>Because of this, when we're looking for new people for entry level positions, I recommend we provide a similar test. Something that can be accomplished in 1000 lines or less (an evening coding) and shows that the applicant has the skills necessary. Then when we call the guy in for an interview, we can tell them before we've even started that his abilities are NOT in question and we are interested in him/her. Therefore when it comes to negotiating salary and such, they have can feel confident asking for thing and can actually get their needs taken care of without accepting the first offer we make fearing we'll toss him/her out since they're unproven. It becomes an issue of personality and office compatibility instead and sometimes we might feel the candidate is just "so promising" that we're willing to try anyway.</htmltext>
<tokenext>As a senior level developer that has in the past worked at major software firms on key projects , I often tend to find myself a bit annoyed when encountering a coding test .
It has an unfortunate effect of tipping the negotiating scales in favor of the employer before an interview even happens .
However for entry level positions , they are HIGHLY useful.I regularly mentor " The New Guy " , a guy who just finished a masters or Ph.D. in signal processing , mathematics , computer science , etc... and more often than not , they ca n't code anything more complex than a 50 line simulation which is barely readable .
Of course , these are really bright guys and can be pushed gently in the right direction very easily , so I take the opportunity to get them started as quickly as possible , after all , the faster they learn , the more work I can send in their direction.I applied for a position at Skype a few years back and everything went well up until they sent me a " coding test " which consisted of making a simple HTTP server which would handle database requests using the PostgreSQL API .
It was a fun project , but most importantly , it said " we know you 've been programming for 15 years as lead developer on major projects .
But can you code ?
" Initially I was a bit annoyed by this and I decided not to bother with the position as I do n't like negotiating terms of employment with an employer who takes the upper hand so early .
But , for entry level positions this opportunity could really open up a great deal of positions to guys who CAN program but do n't know how to get their foot in the door.Because of this , when we 're looking for new people for entry level positions , I recommend we provide a similar test .
Something that can be accomplished in 1000 lines or less ( an evening coding ) and shows that the applicant has the skills necessary .
Then when we call the guy in for an interview , we can tell them before we 've even started that his abilities are NOT in question and we are interested in him/her .
Therefore when it comes to negotiating salary and such , they have can feel confident asking for thing and can actually get their needs taken care of without accepting the first offer we make fearing we 'll toss him/her out since they 're unproven .
It becomes an issue of personality and office compatibility instead and sometimes we might feel the candidate is just " so promising " that we 're willing to try anyway .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a senior level developer that has in the past worked at major software firms on key projects, I often tend to find myself a bit annoyed when encountering a coding test.
It has an unfortunate effect of tipping the negotiating scales in favor of the employer before an interview even happens.
However for entry level positions, they are HIGHLY useful.I regularly mentor "The New Guy", a guy who just finished a masters or Ph.D. in signal processing, mathematics, computer science, etc... and more often than not, they can't code anything more complex than a 50 line simulation which is barely readable.
Of course, these are really bright guys and can be pushed gently in the right direction very easily, so I take the opportunity to get them started as quickly as possible, after all, the faster they learn, the more work I can send in their direction.I applied for a position at Skype a few years back and everything went well up until they sent me a "coding test" which consisted of making a simple HTTP server which would handle database requests using the PostgreSQL API.
It was a fun project, but most importantly, it said "we know you've been programming for 15 years as lead developer on major projects.
But can you code?
" Initially I was a bit annoyed by this and I decided not to bother with the position as I don't like negotiating terms of employment with an employer who takes the upper hand so early.
But, for entry level positions this opportunity could really open up a great deal of positions to guys who CAN program but don't know how to get their foot in the door.Because of this, when we're looking for new people for entry level positions, I recommend we provide a similar test.
Something that can be accomplished in 1000 lines or less (an evening coding) and shows that the applicant has the skills necessary.
Then when we call the guy in for an interview, we can tell them before we've even started that his abilities are NOT in question and we are interested in him/her.
Therefore when it comes to negotiating salary and such, they have can feel confident asking for thing and can actually get their needs taken care of without accepting the first offer we make fearing we'll toss him/her out since they're unproven.
It becomes an issue of personality and office compatibility instead and sometimes we might feel the candidate is just "so promising" that we're willing to try anyway.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650938</id>
	<title>Re:Missing something</title>
	<author>John\_Yossarian</author>
	<datestamp>1269774840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Networking is the best way to go.  But you can get an interview based solely on a good resume / cover letter.  But you have to really sell yourself.  Make sure your resume is formatted good, has no typos, highlights the right things (internships, big school projects), and doesn't duplicate the same buzz-word bullshit that everyone else applying for the job is saying about themselves ("self-starter", "team-player", etc).  Good luck.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Networking is the best way to go .
But you can get an interview based solely on a good resume / cover letter .
But you have to really sell yourself .
Make sure your resume is formatted good , has no typos , highlights the right things ( internships , big school projects ) , and does n't duplicate the same buzz-word bullshit that everyone else applying for the job is saying about themselves ( " self-starter " , " team-player " , etc ) .
Good luck .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Networking is the best way to go.
But you can get an interview based solely on a good resume / cover letter.
But you have to really sell yourself.
Make sure your resume is formatted good, has no typos, highlights the right things (internships, big school projects), and doesn't duplicate the same buzz-word bullshit that everyone else applying for the job is saying about themselves ("self-starter", "team-player", etc).
Good luck.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650206</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650924</id>
	<title>"Am I missing something?"</title>
	<author>morcego</author>
	<datestamp>1269774840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A few things, yes. Probably most of those were answered already, but lets do it again:</p><p>- Find out what the companies are looking for. Do your research. Your post seems to indicate you might be missing this one<br>- No, most likely you can't program. Just because you think you can, doesn't mean that the companies will think the same way. Talk to some people who are already working in this business and see what they think<br>- School didn't teach you a trade. Deal with it. If you were dedicated and lucky, it thought you how to LEARN a trade. You do that after school. (Unless you were working while in college, and that doesn't seem to be the case)<br>- Ask yourself: why would a given company hire you, and not one of the other 9000 who applied.</p><p>In other words, make yourself into something they need. Sorry, no dream jobs out there, at least for people who are starting now. Find what they want, become that, and then, after you are inside, find ways to move into positions that will suit you better.</p><p>Notice: I am an IT business owner</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A few things , yes .
Probably most of those were answered already , but lets do it again : - Find out what the companies are looking for .
Do your research .
Your post seems to indicate you might be missing this one- No , most likely you ca n't program .
Just because you think you can , does n't mean that the companies will think the same way .
Talk to some people who are already working in this business and see what they think- School did n't teach you a trade .
Deal with it .
If you were dedicated and lucky , it thought you how to LEARN a trade .
You do that after school .
( Unless you were working while in college , and that does n't seem to be the case ) - Ask yourself : why would a given company hire you , and not one of the other 9000 who applied.In other words , make yourself into something they need .
Sorry , no dream jobs out there , at least for people who are starting now .
Find what they want , become that , and then , after you are inside , find ways to move into positions that will suit you better.Notice : I am an IT business owner</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A few things, yes.
Probably most of those were answered already, but lets do it again:- Find out what the companies are looking for.
Do your research.
Your post seems to indicate you might be missing this one- No, most likely you can't program.
Just because you think you can, doesn't mean that the companies will think the same way.
Talk to some people who are already working in this business and see what they think- School didn't teach you a trade.
Deal with it.
If you were dedicated and lucky, it thought you how to LEARN a trade.
You do that after school.
(Unless you were working while in college, and that doesn't seem to be the case)- Ask yourself: why would a given company hire you, and not one of the other 9000 who applied.In other words, make yourself into something they need.
Sorry, no dream jobs out there, at least for people who are starting now.
Find what they want, become that, and then, after you are inside, find ways to move into positions that will suit you better.Notice: I am an IT business owner</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650708</id>
	<title>Do the legwork</title>
	<author>edmudama</author>
	<datestamp>1269773640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Finding a job takes a lot of time if you don't already have the connections.  You should be applying to hundreds or thousands of jobs.</p><p>Also, remember there are a lot of software engineering jobs at companies that do not sell software.  If i were a student fresh out of school right now, I'd just go to a list of the fortune 1000 and apply to all of them.</p><p>You also want to go to every single career fair you can find within 50-100 miles, and meet people and give them your resume, and tell them how awesome it would be to help them succeed in business.  Jobs fairs/career fairs are a great way to start building a network.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Finding a job takes a lot of time if you do n't already have the connections .
You should be applying to hundreds or thousands of jobs.Also , remember there are a lot of software engineering jobs at companies that do not sell software .
If i were a student fresh out of school right now , I 'd just go to a list of the fortune 1000 and apply to all of them.You also want to go to every single career fair you can find within 50-100 miles , and meet people and give them your resume , and tell them how awesome it would be to help them succeed in business .
Jobs fairs/career fairs are a great way to start building a network .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Finding a job takes a lot of time if you don't already have the connections.
You should be applying to hundreds or thousands of jobs.Also, remember there are a lot of software engineering jobs at companies that do not sell software.
If i were a student fresh out of school right now, I'd just go to a list of the fortune 1000 and apply to all of them.You also want to go to every single career fair you can find within 50-100 miles, and meet people and give them your resume, and tell them how awesome it would be to help them succeed in business.
Jobs fairs/career fairs are a great way to start building a network.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31653072</id>
	<title>Internship!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269795240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>The best advice I got while I was still in school was to apply for internships.  I applied for several, and ended up doing 2 summers at a National Lab... which led to a year as a subcontractor while I finished school... which led to a full time position as a software developer a couple months after I graduated.<br> <br>

It's not necessarily too late to apply for internships either.  Check out the SULI program through the Office of Science: <a href="http://www.scied.science.doe.gov/scied/sci\_ed.htm" title="doe.gov" rel="nofollow">http://www.scied.science.doe.gov/scied/sci\_ed.htm</a> [doe.gov] <br> <br>

If you check out the SULI FAQ, you'll see that you can apply as a graduating senior.  You will need a few letters of recommendation... and you can apply for spring, summer, or fall term.  There are always people looking for good students where I work... and good students often turn into good employees.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The best advice I got while I was still in school was to apply for internships .
I applied for several , and ended up doing 2 summers at a National Lab... which led to a year as a subcontractor while I finished school... which led to a full time position as a software developer a couple months after I graduated .
It 's not necessarily too late to apply for internships either .
Check out the SULI program through the Office of Science : http : //www.scied.science.doe.gov/scied/sci \ _ed.htm [ doe.gov ] If you check out the SULI FAQ , you 'll see that you can apply as a graduating senior .
You will need a few letters of recommendation... and you can apply for spring , summer , or fall term .
There are always people looking for good students where I work... and good students often turn into good employees .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The best advice I got while I was still in school was to apply for internships.
I applied for several, and ended up doing 2 summers at a National Lab... which led to a year as a subcontractor while I finished school... which led to a full time position as a software developer a couple months after I graduated.
It's not necessarily too late to apply for internships either.
Check out the SULI program through the Office of Science: http://www.scied.science.doe.gov/scied/sci\_ed.htm [doe.gov]  

If you check out the SULI FAQ, you'll see that you can apply as a graduating senior.
You will need a few letters of recommendation... and you can apply for spring, summer, or fall term.
There are always people looking for good students where I work... and good students often turn into good employees.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31656146</id>
	<title>Re:Apply</title>
	<author>cervo</author>
	<datestamp>1269873120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I would say that's the problem with the hiring process.  I worked for a company (sadly as a DBA<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:() where some programmers who have been there for years were absolute idiots.  They could whip code, in the required format, but they couldn't understand what it meant.  Ie someone was supposed to wrap something in a database transaction.  They had a class and used it as class.do operation.  So they create a database connection, wrap it in a transaction, and then are like class.do operation and it doesn't do anything.  I looked over their shoulder for one minute and realized that nowhere were they somehow attaching the database connection with class so that class was probably using its own connection.  Anyway......you get all kinds of people....<br> <br>
There seem to be people who memorize all the syntax of a language and a standard library.  On interviews (which they can get because their previous work experience was in a job similar to the new job, so HR favors their resume) they can answer all sorts of Trivia on the libraries (of say C# or Java).  But then when they program, if you give them a task that falls outside of a normal pattern forget it...  Then there are more fundamentalists like me.  I know the various programming constructs and can usually do almost whatever I want.  But I don't know everything about the libraries.  I need a C# or Java library reference to program in them.  But even without a library, I can implement most things.  Unfortunately I don't get much of the interview trivia so it is harder for me to pass.  But since most of my jobs have been SQL Development jobs, I don't even get a chance at the interview trivia because most HR departments want you to get a new job exactly like your old job because it is lower interest.  It makes it hard to do something different or to grow.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I would say that 's the problem with the hiring process .
I worked for a company ( sadly as a DBA : ( ) where some programmers who have been there for years were absolute idiots .
They could whip code , in the required format , but they could n't understand what it meant .
Ie someone was supposed to wrap something in a database transaction .
They had a class and used it as class.do operation .
So they create a database connection , wrap it in a transaction , and then are like class.do operation and it does n't do anything .
I looked over their shoulder for one minute and realized that nowhere were they somehow attaching the database connection with class so that class was probably using its own connection .
Anyway......you get all kinds of people... . There seem to be people who memorize all the syntax of a language and a standard library .
On interviews ( which they can get because their previous work experience was in a job similar to the new job , so HR favors their resume ) they can answer all sorts of Trivia on the libraries ( of say C # or Java ) .
But then when they program , if you give them a task that falls outside of a normal pattern forget it... Then there are more fundamentalists like me .
I know the various programming constructs and can usually do almost whatever I want .
But I do n't know everything about the libraries .
I need a C # or Java library reference to program in them .
But even without a library , I can implement most things .
Unfortunately I do n't get much of the interview trivia so it is harder for me to pass .
But since most of my jobs have been SQL Development jobs , I do n't even get a chance at the interview trivia because most HR departments want you to get a new job exactly like your old job because it is lower interest .
It makes it hard to do something different or to grow .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would say that's the problem with the hiring process.
I worked for a company (sadly as a DBA :() where some programmers who have been there for years were absolute idiots.
They could whip code, in the required format, but they couldn't understand what it meant.
Ie someone was supposed to wrap something in a database transaction.
They had a class and used it as class.do operation.
So they create a database connection, wrap it in a transaction, and then are like class.do operation and it doesn't do anything.
I looked over their shoulder for one minute and realized that nowhere were they somehow attaching the database connection with class so that class was probably using its own connection.
Anyway......you get all kinds of people.... 
There seem to be people who memorize all the syntax of a language and a standard library.
On interviews (which they can get because their previous work experience was in a job similar to the new job, so HR favors their resume) they can answer all sorts of Trivia on the libraries (of say C# or Java).
But then when they program, if you give them a task that falls outside of a normal pattern forget it...  Then there are more fundamentalists like me.
I know the various programming constructs and can usually do almost whatever I want.
But I don't know everything about the libraries.
I need a C# or Java library reference to program in them.
But even without a library, I can implement most things.
Unfortunately I don't get much of the interview trivia so it is harder for me to pass.
But since most of my jobs have been SQL Development jobs, I don't even get a chance at the interview trivia because most HR departments want you to get a new job exactly like your old job because it is lower interest.
It makes it hard to do something different or to grow.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650362</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650242</id>
	<title>The sad fact is...</title>
	<author>rm999</author>
	<datestamp>1269770460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The sad fact is GPA and the school you went to really matter a lot when getting past HR. If you have a sub 3.0-3.2 GPA and/or went to a low ranked school you should try to bypass HR.</p><p>I would consider traveling to another University's job fair if you don't have good local ones. Here, you can talk directly to engineers/programmers who can gauge your skills far more precisely than HR can glean from your resume.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The sad fact is GPA and the school you went to really matter a lot when getting past HR .
If you have a sub 3.0-3.2 GPA and/or went to a low ranked school you should try to bypass HR.I would consider traveling to another University 's job fair if you do n't have good local ones .
Here , you can talk directly to engineers/programmers who can gauge your skills far more precisely than HR can glean from your resume .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The sad fact is GPA and the school you went to really matter a lot when getting past HR.
If you have a sub 3.0-3.2 GPA and/or went to a low ranked school you should try to bypass HR.I would consider traveling to another University's job fair if you don't have good local ones.
Here, you can talk directly to engineers/programmers who can gauge your skills far more precisely than HR can glean from your resume.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31655298</id>
	<title>Same issue</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269866880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I am suffering with the same problem, i am about to graduate in a month and i have been applying for many jobs but could not get any positive response. I realized that there is something wrong with my resume. Throughout my career, i have been in the university alone doing internships also in the university. May be not having experience in working with companies for internships is also a drawback...</htmltext>
<tokenext>I am suffering with the same problem , i am about to graduate in a month and i have been applying for many jobs but could not get any positive response .
I realized that there is something wrong with my resume .
Throughout my career , i have been in the university alone doing internships also in the university .
May be not having experience in working with companies for internships is also a drawback.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am suffering with the same problem, i am about to graduate in a month and i have been applying for many jobs but could not get any positive response.
I realized that there is something wrong with my resume.
Throughout my career, i have been in the university alone doing internships also in the university.
May be not having experience in working with companies for internships is also a drawback...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650266</id>
	<title>Motivation &amp; Incentive</title>
	<author>cosm</author>
	<datestamp>1269770580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Many points to consider:<br>
-Do you have professional experience programming?<br>
This can be gained through <a href="http://www.fastweb.com/" title="fastweb.com">internships</a> [fastweb.com], <a href="http://sourceforge.net/" title="sourceforge.net">FOSS development,</a> [sourceforge.net] and <a href="http://www.topcoder.com/" title="topcoder.com"> competitive programming.</a> [topcoder.com] <br> <br>Do you have resume fodder?<br>
-Certifications<br>
-Degrees<br>
-Project Successes<br> <br>Do you have references?<br>-Professional connections through school.<br>-People who have reputations in software-development.<br> <br>
Honestly, those are all solid ways to develop the credentials to get you into entry-level, and if you are motivated, well-spoken, and honest, it can be done. But sometimes you have to just bite the bullet and do some intern work for free, or some beta-testing before those connections can be made.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Many points to consider : -Do you have professional experience programming ?
This can be gained through internships [ fastweb.com ] , FOSS development , [ sourceforge.net ] and competitive programming .
[ topcoder.com ] Do you have resume fodder ?
-Certifications -Degrees -Project Successes Do you have references ? -Professional connections through school.-People who have reputations in software-development .
Honestly , those are all solid ways to develop the credentials to get you into entry-level , and if you are motivated , well-spoken , and honest , it can be done .
But sometimes you have to just bite the bullet and do some intern work for free , or some beta-testing before those connections can be made .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Many points to consider:
-Do you have professional experience programming?
This can be gained through internships [fastweb.com], FOSS development, [sourceforge.net] and  competitive programming.
[topcoder.com]  Do you have resume fodder?
-Certifications
-Degrees
-Project Successes Do you have references?-Professional connections through school.-People who have reputations in software-development.
Honestly, those are all solid ways to develop the credentials to get you into entry-level, and if you are motivated, well-spoken, and honest, it can be done.
But sometimes you have to just bite the bullet and do some intern work for free, or some beta-testing before those connections can be made.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31654214</id>
	<title>Write  a Mobile App</title>
	<author>Mista2</author>
	<datestamp>1269894660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Write a mobile app for a popular platform, or several and include free promo codes to prospecive employers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Write a mobile app for a popular platform , or several and include free promo codes to prospecive employers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Write a mobile app for a popular platform, or several and include free promo codes to prospecive employers.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31655862</id>
	<title>Top 6 ways</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269871440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><b>6. Pure luck.</b> Maybe the H.R. at the company is having a seriously off day, or maybe they're one of the really wierd and unusual companies that still has some business practices from 50 years ago and somehow still manages to see apprenticeships or on-the-job training as an investment rather than a burden. So you actually manage to get the job, even if you truely are entry-level material and need to polish your skills and build experience.<br><b>5. Outsource yourself.</b> If you are young and healthy and willing to embrace adventure, this is a viable option. As sucky as this option seems, the fact is that all the "good" entry level jobs which would provide relevant experience to your field of study have been outsourced from the U.S. by self-defeating (to the U.S. labor pool) business practices encouraged by MBAs and their HR bretheren. Somehow the idea of training employees has gone from being regarded as an investment to being regarded as an expense that must be eliminated by all means possible. The true entry level work for most technical jobs has been off-shored, so it is necessary to off-shore yourself as well to reasonably access entry-level work. (Entry level jobs posted in the U.S. are <i>entry level in name only</i>. You will <i>not qualify</i> unless you fall into any of the following categories on the list.) Of course be prepared to experience these exciting things in your new quest for employment outside the U.S.: learning difficult languages, strange cultures, unusual cuisines, serious crowding, more exposure to disease, breathing in and drinking lots of pollution, and being treated as a second or third class citizen once they realize you don't have tourist money to spend and give clues that you're not on a vacation.<br><b>4. You're really good.</b> Yeah, you're really really good. You have years and years of experience, and know the ins and outs of what you're working with. You honestly could be teaching the stuff you're dealing with, if only you didn't care for the academic B.S. and extra busywork it would entail. You're definitely and obviously not entry level material, but with the economy going the way it is these days - who cares? You need the job right?<br><b>3. You're a talented bullshit artist.</b> Not only can you sell freezers to eskimos, but you can even manage to sell ice cubes to them. Who cares if you're lying on the resume and interview, as long as H.R. can buy your flowery excrement - you're golden. Not that you'd ever be a good worker, but as long as you suck up to management and are good at the con-game that doesn't matter either.<br><b>2. Connections, connections, connections!</b> All it takes is to have a friend in the company with a good relationship to H.R. or management. Or perhaps a friend that owns a business who's also not worried about money ruining the friendship. If that's not the case, then it takes a friend (or family) in government with some kind of political influence or regulatory oversight of the company you want to get in. They can open doors for you.<br><b>1. Behold the power of nepotism!</b> If you have any family that owns an established business or runs a major aspect of such, enjoy the free ride. You can be as craptastic as you want, and even be as bad as to ensure the ruin of the venture years down the road. But hey, you're family! Welcome to the new "royalty" of the modern age. Just make sure to pull that C average or whatever to get the qualifying college degree so daddy doesn't feel too awkward about giving you your reserved spot amongst others that worked for their position. (You can also marry your way in, but in truth it really only applies to good looking females. So that probably rules out 99\% of the slashdot audience.)</p><p>* <i>Disclaimer: Yes, I am cynical. Yes, I got a college degree. No, I haven't found any steady work in the last 3 years. And yes, there is freelancing - but it really doesn't happen often enough or make enough to even qualify as self-employed on the IRS tax bracket. At least there's some old junk to sell via C.L. or eBay, and most major debts are paid off. And yes, I am tired of doing job searches when a lot of companies act like serious assholes in regards to correspondence and treatment of job applicants.</i></p></htmltext>
<tokenext>6 .
Pure luck .
Maybe the H.R .
at the company is having a seriously off day , or maybe they 're one of the really wierd and unusual companies that still has some business practices from 50 years ago and somehow still manages to see apprenticeships or on-the-job training as an investment rather than a burden .
So you actually manage to get the job , even if you truely are entry-level material and need to polish your skills and build experience.5 .
Outsource yourself .
If you are young and healthy and willing to embrace adventure , this is a viable option .
As sucky as this option seems , the fact is that all the " good " entry level jobs which would provide relevant experience to your field of study have been outsourced from the U.S. by self-defeating ( to the U.S. labor pool ) business practices encouraged by MBAs and their HR bretheren .
Somehow the idea of training employees has gone from being regarded as an investment to being regarded as an expense that must be eliminated by all means possible .
The true entry level work for most technical jobs has been off-shored , so it is necessary to off-shore yourself as well to reasonably access entry-level work .
( Entry level jobs posted in the U.S. are entry level in name only .
You will not qualify unless you fall into any of the following categories on the list .
) Of course be prepared to experience these exciting things in your new quest for employment outside the U.S. : learning difficult languages , strange cultures , unusual cuisines , serious crowding , more exposure to disease , breathing in and drinking lots of pollution , and being treated as a second or third class citizen once they realize you do n't have tourist money to spend and give clues that you 're not on a vacation.4 .
You 're really good .
Yeah , you 're really really good .
You have years and years of experience , and know the ins and outs of what you 're working with .
You honestly could be teaching the stuff you 're dealing with , if only you did n't care for the academic B.S .
and extra busywork it would entail .
You 're definitely and obviously not entry level material , but with the economy going the way it is these days - who cares ?
You need the job right ? 3 .
You 're a talented bullshit artist .
Not only can you sell freezers to eskimos , but you can even manage to sell ice cubes to them .
Who cares if you 're lying on the resume and interview , as long as H.R .
can buy your flowery excrement - you 're golden .
Not that you 'd ever be a good worker , but as long as you suck up to management and are good at the con-game that does n't matter either.2 .
Connections , connections , connections !
All it takes is to have a friend in the company with a good relationship to H.R .
or management .
Or perhaps a friend that owns a business who 's also not worried about money ruining the friendship .
If that 's not the case , then it takes a friend ( or family ) in government with some kind of political influence or regulatory oversight of the company you want to get in .
They can open doors for you.1 .
Behold the power of nepotism !
If you have any family that owns an established business or runs a major aspect of such , enjoy the free ride .
You can be as craptastic as you want , and even be as bad as to ensure the ruin of the venture years down the road .
But hey , you 're family !
Welcome to the new " royalty " of the modern age .
Just make sure to pull that C average or whatever to get the qualifying college degree so daddy does n't feel too awkward about giving you your reserved spot amongst others that worked for their position .
( You can also marry your way in , but in truth it really only applies to good looking females .
So that probably rules out 99 \ % of the slashdot audience .
) * Disclaimer : Yes , I am cynical .
Yes , I got a college degree .
No , I have n't found any steady work in the last 3 years .
And yes , there is freelancing - but it really does n't happen often enough or make enough to even qualify as self-employed on the IRS tax bracket .
At least there 's some old junk to sell via C.L .
or eBay , and most major debts are paid off .
And yes , I am tired of doing job searches when a lot of companies act like serious assholes in regards to correspondence and treatment of job applicants .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>6.
Pure luck.
Maybe the H.R.
at the company is having a seriously off day, or maybe they're one of the really wierd and unusual companies that still has some business practices from 50 years ago and somehow still manages to see apprenticeships or on-the-job training as an investment rather than a burden.
So you actually manage to get the job, even if you truely are entry-level material and need to polish your skills and build experience.5.
Outsource yourself.
If you are young and healthy and willing to embrace adventure, this is a viable option.
As sucky as this option seems, the fact is that all the "good" entry level jobs which would provide relevant experience to your field of study have been outsourced from the U.S. by self-defeating (to the U.S. labor pool) business practices encouraged by MBAs and their HR bretheren.
Somehow the idea of training employees has gone from being regarded as an investment to being regarded as an expense that must be eliminated by all means possible.
The true entry level work for most technical jobs has been off-shored, so it is necessary to off-shore yourself as well to reasonably access entry-level work.
(Entry level jobs posted in the U.S. are entry level in name only.
You will not qualify unless you fall into any of the following categories on the list.
) Of course be prepared to experience these exciting things in your new quest for employment outside the U.S.: learning difficult languages, strange cultures, unusual cuisines, serious crowding, more exposure to disease, breathing in and drinking lots of pollution, and being treated as a second or third class citizen once they realize you don't have tourist money to spend and give clues that you're not on a vacation.4.
You're really good.
Yeah, you're really really good.
You have years and years of experience, and know the ins and outs of what you're working with.
You honestly could be teaching the stuff you're dealing with, if only you didn't care for the academic B.S.
and extra busywork it would entail.
You're definitely and obviously not entry level material, but with the economy going the way it is these days - who cares?
You need the job right?3.
You're a talented bullshit artist.
Not only can you sell freezers to eskimos, but you can even manage to sell ice cubes to them.
Who cares if you're lying on the resume and interview, as long as H.R.
can buy your flowery excrement - you're golden.
Not that you'd ever be a good worker, but as long as you suck up to management and are good at the con-game that doesn't matter either.2.
Connections, connections, connections!
All it takes is to have a friend in the company with a good relationship to H.R.
or management.
Or perhaps a friend that owns a business who's also not worried about money ruining the friendship.
If that's not the case, then it takes a friend (or family) in government with some kind of political influence or regulatory oversight of the company you want to get in.
They can open doors for you.1.
Behold the power of nepotism!
If you have any family that owns an established business or runs a major aspect of such, enjoy the free ride.
You can be as craptastic as you want, and even be as bad as to ensure the ruin of the venture years down the road.
But hey, you're family!
Welcome to the new "royalty" of the modern age.
Just make sure to pull that C average or whatever to get the qualifying college degree so daddy doesn't feel too awkward about giving you your reserved spot amongst others that worked for their position.
(You can also marry your way in, but in truth it really only applies to good looking females.
So that probably rules out 99\% of the slashdot audience.
)* Disclaimer: Yes, I am cynical.
Yes, I got a college degree.
No, I haven't found any steady work in the last 3 years.
And yes, there is freelancing - but it really doesn't happen often enough or make enough to even qualify as self-employed on the IRS tax bracket.
At least there's some old junk to sell via C.L.
or eBay, and most major debts are paid off.
And yes, I am tired of doing job searches when a lot of companies act like serious assholes in regards to correspondence and treatment of job applicants.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652460</id>
	<title>Re:The sad fact is...</title>
	<author>stewbacca</author>
	<datestamp>1269788520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The sad fact is GPA and the school you went to really matter a lot when getting past HR.</p></div><p>I think this is a common misconception on slashdot. Perhaps it's a regional thought process, but here in Austin, if you have the degree, it doesn't matter where you got it from (as long as it's accredited) and nobody will ever know your GPA (unless you tell them).</p><p>There is such a SHORTAGE of entry-level candidates with a B.S. in anything computer related, we hire pretty much anyone willing to apply and show up to work on Monday...and I live in a progressive tech-savvy city with two universities within commuting distance to my office.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The sad fact is GPA and the school you went to really matter a lot when getting past HR.I think this is a common misconception on slashdot .
Perhaps it 's a regional thought process , but here in Austin , if you have the degree , it does n't matter where you got it from ( as long as it 's accredited ) and nobody will ever know your GPA ( unless you tell them ) .There is such a SHORTAGE of entry-level candidates with a B.S .
in anything computer related , we hire pretty much anyone willing to apply and show up to work on Monday...and I live in a progressive tech-savvy city with two universities within commuting distance to my office .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The sad fact is GPA and the school you went to really matter a lot when getting past HR.I think this is a common misconception on slashdot.
Perhaps it's a regional thought process, but here in Austin, if you have the degree, it doesn't matter where you got it from (as long as it's accredited) and nobody will ever know your GPA (unless you tell them).There is such a SHORTAGE of entry-level candidates with a B.S.
in anything computer related, we hire pretty much anyone willing to apply and show up to work on Monday...and I live in a progressive tech-savvy city with two universities within commuting distance to my office.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650242</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650252</id>
	<title>come to bay area</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269770520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>if you think you can program then come to silicon valley and apply to the startups here through craigslist with sample of your work. In no time you will land a job - this is from my experience.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>if you think you can program then come to silicon valley and apply to the startups here through craigslist with sample of your work .
In no time you will land a job - this is from my experience .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>if you think you can program then come to silicon valley and apply to the startups here through craigslist with sample of your work.
In no time you will land a job - this is from my experience.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651268</id>
	<title>You added a link?</title>
	<author>ucblockhead</author>
	<datestamp>1269777300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well...I'd say step one would be to stop publicly referring to putting a link in an HTML form as "programming".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well...I 'd say step one would be to stop publicly referring to putting a link in an HTML form as " programming " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well...I'd say step one would be to stop publicly referring to putting a link in an HTML form as "programming".</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31654814</id>
	<title>Re:Apply</title>
	<author>Island Admin</author>
	<datestamp>1269860580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I have been in the industry for many years, and I agree.  The cover letter is really important.  In the current economic climate, recruitment agents are receiving hundreds of CV's daily.  They do not have time to go and decipher your job history to figure out whether you may or may not be suitable for the position.<br>
<br>
Your cover letter should highlight the points in your CV that match the position being applied for.  You should also make it clear that you are enthusiastic about technology, and prepared to learn.  Also try and give examples if possible of how you have had experience with the requirements for the position, whether it was a project you worked on at college, or a paper or thesis you have written.<br>
<br>
No bullshit either.  I have interviewed many developers, and I can tell you now, that fake experience is easy to pick up on.  Any garbage produced will catch up with you later.  Always remember that even after you land a position, you are going to be on probation for some time afterwards, and other developers will be asked about how they view your skills.<br>
<br>
Initially you are going to have to lower your expectations. I went through about 5 jobs in 3 years at the beginning as I climbed the salary ladder.  Times are different now, but don't view the first Job you land as the one you are going to spend the next 20 years in.  Realism is sometimes more important than optimism.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have been in the industry for many years , and I agree .
The cover letter is really important .
In the current economic climate , recruitment agents are receiving hundreds of CV 's daily .
They do not have time to go and decipher your job history to figure out whether you may or may not be suitable for the position .
Your cover letter should highlight the points in your CV that match the position being applied for .
You should also make it clear that you are enthusiastic about technology , and prepared to learn .
Also try and give examples if possible of how you have had experience with the requirements for the position , whether it was a project you worked on at college , or a paper or thesis you have written .
No bullshit either .
I have interviewed many developers , and I can tell you now , that fake experience is easy to pick up on .
Any garbage produced will catch up with you later .
Always remember that even after you land a position , you are going to be on probation for some time afterwards , and other developers will be asked about how they view your skills .
Initially you are going to have to lower your expectations .
I went through about 5 jobs in 3 years at the beginning as I climbed the salary ladder .
Times are different now , but do n't view the first Job you land as the one you are going to spend the next 20 years in .
Realism is sometimes more important than optimism .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have been in the industry for many years, and I agree.
The cover letter is really important.
In the current economic climate, recruitment agents are receiving hundreds of CV's daily.
They do not have time to go and decipher your job history to figure out whether you may or may not be suitable for the position.
Your cover letter should highlight the points in your CV that match the position being applied for.
You should also make it clear that you are enthusiastic about technology, and prepared to learn.
Also try and give examples if possible of how you have had experience with the requirements for the position, whether it was a project you worked on at college, or a paper or thesis you have written.
No bullshit either.
I have interviewed many developers, and I can tell you now, that fake experience is easy to pick up on.
Any garbage produced will catch up with you later.
Always remember that even after you land a position, you are going to be on probation for some time afterwards, and other developers will be asked about how they view your skills.
Initially you are going to have to lower your expectations.
I went through about 5 jobs in 3 years at the beginning as I climbed the salary ladder.
Times are different now, but don't view the first Job you land as the one you are going to spend the next 20 years in.
Realism is sometimes more important than optimism.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650650</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651106</id>
	<title>Good</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269776160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm about to graduate as well, and I'm coming out of school with a great job.</p><p>1) You have to go to a great school where companies actively recruit. These are probably the top ranked 30 or 40 schools in the nation. Going to these schools allow you to network, and take advantage of the school's reputation. This is extremely important. I would wager that Harvard is only 40\% better than your run-of-the-mill MBA school, but the MBA's that go there are interesting to the powerful companies that sit on the south tip of Manhattan. Likewise with programming, you have to go to a school that breeds you to be the programmer the big companies want.</p><p>2) Study the right thing. I strongly feel that emphasis on low level assembly, vlsi design, and hardware architecture will serve you a lot better than knowing if a convoluted algorithm is O(nlogn). Be unique, and have real skills when you come out of school. If all you can do is spit out userspace Java programs, you'll have a lot harder time finding a job than if you can write device drivers.</p><p>3) Network, network, network. Know your classmates, where they're getting a job, what pots they have their ladles in. Pick an area that sounds lucrative and interesting, and focus on getting a job there. A big part of networking is social skills, including interfacing with the dreaded HR drones. Join a fraternity/sorority, toastmaster's club, etc, and make work towards not being CS-awkward.</p><p>4) Be willing to relocate. My great school is in one of the worst economies in the States, and I'm having to move a few thousand miles for a job. If I wanted to stay where I grew up, I'd be looking at half the salary.</p><p>5) Finally, get some experience programming. If you want to<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/program/, avoid IT like its the plague. Open source contributions unlock a lot of doors. Its not easy, but you have to prove you're better than the legions of other BASIC-slinging programs out there.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm about to graduate as well , and I 'm coming out of school with a great job.1 ) You have to go to a great school where companies actively recruit .
These are probably the top ranked 30 or 40 schools in the nation .
Going to these schools allow you to network , and take advantage of the school 's reputation .
This is extremely important .
I would wager that Harvard is only 40 \ % better than your run-of-the-mill MBA school , but the MBA 's that go there are interesting to the powerful companies that sit on the south tip of Manhattan .
Likewise with programming , you have to go to a school that breeds you to be the programmer the big companies want.2 ) Study the right thing .
I strongly feel that emphasis on low level assembly , vlsi design , and hardware architecture will serve you a lot better than knowing if a convoluted algorithm is O ( nlogn ) .
Be unique , and have real skills when you come out of school .
If all you can do is spit out userspace Java programs , you 'll have a lot harder time finding a job than if you can write device drivers.3 ) Network , network , network .
Know your classmates , where they 're getting a job , what pots they have their ladles in .
Pick an area that sounds lucrative and interesting , and focus on getting a job there .
A big part of networking is social skills , including interfacing with the dreaded HR drones .
Join a fraternity/sorority , toastmaster 's club , etc , and make work towards not being CS-awkward.4 ) Be willing to relocate .
My great school is in one of the worst economies in the States , and I 'm having to move a few thousand miles for a job .
If I wanted to stay where I grew up , I 'd be looking at half the salary.5 ) Finally , get some experience programming .
If you want to /program/ , avoid IT like its the plague .
Open source contributions unlock a lot of doors .
Its not easy , but you have to prove you 're better than the legions of other BASIC-slinging programs out there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm about to graduate as well, and I'm coming out of school with a great job.1) You have to go to a great school where companies actively recruit.
These are probably the top ranked 30 or 40 schools in the nation.
Going to these schools allow you to network, and take advantage of the school's reputation.
This is extremely important.
I would wager that Harvard is only 40\% better than your run-of-the-mill MBA school, but the MBA's that go there are interesting to the powerful companies that sit on the south tip of Manhattan.
Likewise with programming, you have to go to a school that breeds you to be the programmer the big companies want.2) Study the right thing.
I strongly feel that emphasis on low level assembly, vlsi design, and hardware architecture will serve you a lot better than knowing if a convoluted algorithm is O(nlogn).
Be unique, and have real skills when you come out of school.
If all you can do is spit out userspace Java programs, you'll have a lot harder time finding a job than if you can write device drivers.3) Network, network, network.
Know your classmates, where they're getting a job, what pots they have their ladles in.
Pick an area that sounds lucrative and interesting, and focus on getting a job there.
A big part of networking is social skills, including interfacing with the dreaded HR drones.
Join a fraternity/sorority, toastmaster's club, etc, and make work towards not being CS-awkward.4) Be willing to relocate.
My great school is in one of the worst economies in the States, and I'm having to move a few thousand miles for a job.
If I wanted to stay where I grew up, I'd be looking at half the salary.5) Finally, get some experience programming.
If you want to /program/, avoid IT like its the plague.
Open source contributions unlock a lot of doors.
Its not easy, but you have to prove you're better than the legions of other BASIC-slinging programs out there.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31657478</id>
	<title>Tips to getting Hired</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269878820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Maybe you'll miss this as I'm posting anonymous; regardless the rules for getting a job are the same no matter what job you're after.</p><p>My experience is HR in any company is not even remotely qualified to screen resumes for qualified applicants.  When I got hired in my first job at my current employer, my resume was screened out for months.  Fortunately I had a connection in the company who brought my resume to my soon to be boss.  My boss told me later that every resume he got from HR wasn't even remotely close to what he was looking for and mine coming across his desk was a miracle to him.  HR people know HR; they don't know IT so they'll have a hard time spotting good applicants.  Also, my ex worked in HR, and her job was to basically throw out people's resumes that didn't meet basic standards, ie if it didn't look professional or lacked a cover letter, it went in the trash and never saw a recruiter.</p><p>You have to leverage who you know and work around HR.  Use your professors for possible introductions; likely they know people in local companies who might be interested in you.  If you haven't developed a relationship with your professors during your education, well it's never too late but I'd start today.  Find out who your friends know and network your way into companies that are owned or employed friends of friends.  Relatives are a good place to go too.  Most employers look at a combination of factors when hiring: resume (cover letter), recommendations, experience/education, and job interview.  I list resume and experience/education separately because if you have a great background but can't write a decent resume, you're screwed.  Even if you have good education, no experience, and a good resume, if you have no good recommendations you're screwed.  So you need people who are respectable and have good backgrounds to vouch for you, and if you know someone in your target company then the recommendation improves dramatically.</p><p>Linkedin I thought was kind of ridiculous until a few months ago when a family member at an executive staffing company told me that her company uses Linkedin FIRST for finding potential applicants, and sometimes excusively.  Develop a good network of people you know and respect and develop a good Linkedin profile.  It may not help but it certainly can't hurt, and more and more it's starting to grow in importance.</p><p>This is a tough market for getting a new job, but the jobs are there.  The thing is, an employer is going to find someone who they think is the lowest risk and has the highest motivation.  If you have good recommendations from people who are respected, you lower your risk profile.  Also, shotgunning resumes out into cyberspace might land you a job, but you should combine that with networking, job fairs, and anything else you cna think of.  Also, don't wait for them to call you.  Send a resume and call them a week later for a follow up.  At the very least you'll get friendly with the receptionist and send your resume a second time; maybe she won't throw it away if she recognizes your name.</p><p>Other good tips: research your companies.  What projects are they doing?  Draft a unique cover letter and tailor it to the company.  Show interest in their projects and enthusiasm to be a part of what they do.  This research will pay off during the interview as well.  Make sure you know enough about the company to have questions about their projects lined up; an excellent interviewing tactic that also raises you above everyone else out there is to be able to ask questions back at the interviewer.</p><p>Getting hired is a skill.  It takes practice and perserverence.  Research what to do and go to the career center at your school, ask for help with interviewing and resume writing.  Very few people do this and if you can develop these skills not only will you be in the top 5\% of applicants, but it'll pay off 10 years, 20 years, 30 years into your career.</p><p>If you're still struggling, go to a temp agency.  At the very least if you can get placed in a temp position, it may suck for awhile but A) it's work, B) it's experience for a resume, and C) it's an opportunity to network and develop relationships that could lead to the career of your dreams.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe you 'll miss this as I 'm posting anonymous ; regardless the rules for getting a job are the same no matter what job you 're after.My experience is HR in any company is not even remotely qualified to screen resumes for qualified applicants .
When I got hired in my first job at my current employer , my resume was screened out for months .
Fortunately I had a connection in the company who brought my resume to my soon to be boss .
My boss told me later that every resume he got from HR was n't even remotely close to what he was looking for and mine coming across his desk was a miracle to him .
HR people know HR ; they do n't know IT so they 'll have a hard time spotting good applicants .
Also , my ex worked in HR , and her job was to basically throw out people 's resumes that did n't meet basic standards , ie if it did n't look professional or lacked a cover letter , it went in the trash and never saw a recruiter.You have to leverage who you know and work around HR .
Use your professors for possible introductions ; likely they know people in local companies who might be interested in you .
If you have n't developed a relationship with your professors during your education , well it 's never too late but I 'd start today .
Find out who your friends know and network your way into companies that are owned or employed friends of friends .
Relatives are a good place to go too .
Most employers look at a combination of factors when hiring : resume ( cover letter ) , recommendations , experience/education , and job interview .
I list resume and experience/education separately because if you have a great background but ca n't write a decent resume , you 're screwed .
Even if you have good education , no experience , and a good resume , if you have no good recommendations you 're screwed .
So you need people who are respectable and have good backgrounds to vouch for you , and if you know someone in your target company then the recommendation improves dramatically.Linkedin I thought was kind of ridiculous until a few months ago when a family member at an executive staffing company told me that her company uses Linkedin FIRST for finding potential applicants , and sometimes excusively .
Develop a good network of people you know and respect and develop a good Linkedin profile .
It may not help but it certainly ca n't hurt , and more and more it 's starting to grow in importance.This is a tough market for getting a new job , but the jobs are there .
The thing is , an employer is going to find someone who they think is the lowest risk and has the highest motivation .
If you have good recommendations from people who are respected , you lower your risk profile .
Also , shotgunning resumes out into cyberspace might land you a job , but you should combine that with networking , job fairs , and anything else you cna think of .
Also , do n't wait for them to call you .
Send a resume and call them a week later for a follow up .
At the very least you 'll get friendly with the receptionist and send your resume a second time ; maybe she wo n't throw it away if she recognizes your name.Other good tips : research your companies .
What projects are they doing ?
Draft a unique cover letter and tailor it to the company .
Show interest in their projects and enthusiasm to be a part of what they do .
This research will pay off during the interview as well .
Make sure you know enough about the company to have questions about their projects lined up ; an excellent interviewing tactic that also raises you above everyone else out there is to be able to ask questions back at the interviewer.Getting hired is a skill .
It takes practice and perserverence .
Research what to do and go to the career center at your school , ask for help with interviewing and resume writing .
Very few people do this and if you can develop these skills not only will you be in the top 5 \ % of applicants , but it 'll pay off 10 years , 20 years , 30 years into your career.If you 're still struggling , go to a temp agency .
At the very least if you can get placed in a temp position , it may suck for awhile but A ) it 's work , B ) it 's experience for a resume , and C ) it 's an opportunity to network and develop relationships that could lead to the career of your dreams .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe you'll miss this as I'm posting anonymous; regardless the rules for getting a job are the same no matter what job you're after.My experience is HR in any company is not even remotely qualified to screen resumes for qualified applicants.
When I got hired in my first job at my current employer, my resume was screened out for months.
Fortunately I had a connection in the company who brought my resume to my soon to be boss.
My boss told me later that every resume he got from HR wasn't even remotely close to what he was looking for and mine coming across his desk was a miracle to him.
HR people know HR; they don't know IT so they'll have a hard time spotting good applicants.
Also, my ex worked in HR, and her job was to basically throw out people's resumes that didn't meet basic standards, ie if it didn't look professional or lacked a cover letter, it went in the trash and never saw a recruiter.You have to leverage who you know and work around HR.
Use your professors for possible introductions; likely they know people in local companies who might be interested in you.
If you haven't developed a relationship with your professors during your education, well it's never too late but I'd start today.
Find out who your friends know and network your way into companies that are owned or employed friends of friends.
Relatives are a good place to go too.
Most employers look at a combination of factors when hiring: resume (cover letter), recommendations, experience/education, and job interview.
I list resume and experience/education separately because if you have a great background but can't write a decent resume, you're screwed.
Even if you have good education, no experience, and a good resume, if you have no good recommendations you're screwed.
So you need people who are respectable and have good backgrounds to vouch for you, and if you know someone in your target company then the recommendation improves dramatically.Linkedin I thought was kind of ridiculous until a few months ago when a family member at an executive staffing company told me that her company uses Linkedin FIRST for finding potential applicants, and sometimes excusively.
Develop a good network of people you know and respect and develop a good Linkedin profile.
It may not help but it certainly can't hurt, and more and more it's starting to grow in importance.This is a tough market for getting a new job, but the jobs are there.
The thing is, an employer is going to find someone who they think is the lowest risk and has the highest motivation.
If you have good recommendations from people who are respected, you lower your risk profile.
Also, shotgunning resumes out into cyberspace might land you a job, but you should combine that with networking, job fairs, and anything else you cna think of.
Also, don't wait for them to call you.
Send a resume and call them a week later for a follow up.
At the very least you'll get friendly with the receptionist and send your resume a second time; maybe she won't throw it away if she recognizes your name.Other good tips: research your companies.
What projects are they doing?
Draft a unique cover letter and tailor it to the company.
Show interest in their projects and enthusiasm to be a part of what they do.
This research will pay off during the interview as well.
Make sure you know enough about the company to have questions about their projects lined up; an excellent interviewing tactic that also raises you above everyone else out there is to be able to ask questions back at the interviewer.Getting hired is a skill.
It takes practice and perserverence.
Research what to do and go to the career center at your school, ask for help with interviewing and resume writing.
Very few people do this and if you can develop these skills not only will you be in the top 5\% of applicants, but it'll pay off 10 years, 20 years, 30 years into your career.If you're still struggling, go to a temp agency.
At the very least if you can get placed in a temp position, it may suck for awhile but A) it's work, B) it's experience for a resume, and C) it's an opportunity to network and develop relationships that could lead to the career of your dreams.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31653026</id>
	<title>Not universal truths</title>
	<author>JMZero</author>
	<datestamp>1269794880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My company is hiring now, and it's very difficult to find anyone who can program (in Edmonton, Canada - I'm the programming manager, and as part of that I evaluate applicants programming skills).</p><p>There may be places where there's a glut of good experienced programmers, but it certainly isn't universal.</p><p>And if I have any complaint it certainly has nothing to do with "an education that is out of date".  I'm not interested in what technologies, techniques, or methodologies a candidate is familiar with.  I can help someone pick that stuff up, and there's no way to know everything an employer might need.  I just want someone who can do basic problem solving and can work through the basic logic of programming - stuff that has never changed.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My company is hiring now , and it 's very difficult to find anyone who can program ( in Edmonton , Canada - I 'm the programming manager , and as part of that I evaluate applicants programming skills ) .There may be places where there 's a glut of good experienced programmers , but it certainly is n't universal.And if I have any complaint it certainly has nothing to do with " an education that is out of date " .
I 'm not interested in what technologies , techniques , or methodologies a candidate is familiar with .
I can help someone pick that stuff up , and there 's no way to know everything an employer might need .
I just want someone who can do basic problem solving and can work through the basic logic of programming - stuff that has never changed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My company is hiring now, and it's very difficult to find anyone who can program (in Edmonton, Canada - I'm the programming manager, and as part of that I evaluate applicants programming skills).There may be places where there's a glut of good experienced programmers, but it certainly isn't universal.And if I have any complaint it certainly has nothing to do with "an education that is out of date".
I'm not interested in what technologies, techniques, or methodologies a candidate is familiar with.
I can help someone pick that stuff up, and there's no way to know everything an employer might need.
I just want someone who can do basic problem solving and can work through the basic logic of programming - stuff that has never changed.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650362</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650888</id>
	<title>Experience?!</title>
	<author>exomondo</author>
	<datestamp>1269774600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I can program!</p></div><p>And are you going for <i>programming</i> roles or <i>software engineering/development</i> roles? Make sure you understand the difference because the latter is far more involved.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>It seems to me that developers are always looking for talented young programmers. We're out here looking for you too. Am I missing something?"</p></div><p>If you really are a talented programmer then you have loads of experience proving it - personal folio of projects, contributions to open source, volunteer or paid industry experience from throughout your course - these are the essential things. If you have no experience you'll forgive employers for not taking your claim as being a 'talented programmer' seriously.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I can program ! And are you going for programming roles or software engineering/development roles ?
Make sure you understand the difference because the latter is far more involved.It seems to me that developers are always looking for talented young programmers .
We 're out here looking for you too .
Am I missing something ?
" If you really are a talented programmer then you have loads of experience proving it - personal folio of projects , contributions to open source , volunteer or paid industry experience from throughout your course - these are the essential things .
If you have no experience you 'll forgive employers for not taking your claim as being a 'talented programmer ' seriously .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can program!And are you going for programming roles or software engineering/development roles?
Make sure you understand the difference because the latter is far more involved.It seems to me that developers are always looking for talented young programmers.
We're out here looking for you too.
Am I missing something?
"If you really are a talented programmer then you have loads of experience proving it - personal folio of projects, contributions to open source, volunteer or paid industry experience from throughout your course - these are the essential things.
If you have no experience you'll forgive employers for not taking your claim as being a 'talented programmer' seriously.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31681020</id>
	<title>Re:Proof that our economy is fundamentally broken</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269959040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This WILL happen, by the way.</p><p>The baby boomers basically sucked everything out of the economy and are busy pulling the ladder up behind them. Hell, i'm not that old and I'M going to be on the "mandatory euthanasia" list.</p><p>In my experience, "Life isn't fair" are words spoken by those to whom life was MORE than fair.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This WILL happen , by the way.The baby boomers basically sucked everything out of the economy and are busy pulling the ladder up behind them .
Hell , i 'm not that old and I 'M going to be on the " mandatory euthanasia " list.In my experience , " Life is n't fair " are words spoken by those to whom life was MORE than fair .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This WILL happen, by the way.The baby boomers basically sucked everything out of the economy and are busy pulling the ladder up behind them.
Hell, i'm not that old and I'M going to be on the "mandatory euthanasia" list.In my experience, "Life isn't fair" are words spoken by those to whom life was MORE than fair.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651322</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651014</id>
	<title>Get some experience</title>
	<author>thoth</author>
	<datestamp>1269775320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is a rough job market to be graduating into... that being said, these dips occur all the time so you have to be prepared for them.  But the job market itself has changed.  I graduated with a B.S.E.E. in 1990, and had some software development experience from a summer internship.  However, I decided to attend grad school (personal goal to get a Masters), but kept an eye out for more summer work.  By the time I got my Masters, I had a second internship as a software developer with another company, and also had networked and worked a contract position doing some PERL scripting for a local ISP.</p><p>Not that you have a time machine or anything, but you should have been trying to find a position getting any kind of software development experience, while you were still a student.  Perhaps working for a professor as a research software developer, or in your college's IT bureaucracy somewhere.  Do co-op positions still exist?  My current employer has a summer program, but obviously that isn't something you can look into late March before a May graduation date.  If none of that works out, improve some open-source software and at least be able to show something, as a leg up on the competition.  Not to be an old fart talking about a bygone era, but back when I was entry level, getting experience on real software wasn't as easy (open source wasn't as visible) so companies didn't look for it to the extent they might these days.</p><p>Now I realize it just isn't always that simple... software dev positions are hyper-specialized these days.  Companies wanted web programmers with years of experience on specific frameworks, C#/.NET positions with years of UI experience, Java with domain specific experience (simulation/modeling as it turned out) and preferably with a security clearance, C++ experience with X years doing Y, even companies wanting candidates with experience at working at other companies of the same size (startup to startup, small to small), etc.  That second summer internship I had was at computer company needing a combo of Windows developer AND Novell Netware developer (this was back in the early-mid 90's).  Not many (any?) people had that combo so they were willing to take on a generalist who they thought was fairly sharp and could learn.  I really didn't have either coming out of school in that era.  These days, I'm not sure many places do that anymore, which I think is really unfortunate.  Especially now, with high unemployment, companies can filter for their exact requirements and still have too many resumes to sift through.</p><p>Lastly, I would say be realistic, you might have to take some other position just to have a job.  That doesn't have to be the end of your career before it even starts, a lot of getting to where you want to go involves getting your foot in the door in order to prove yourself.  Where I work now has a mix of software dev and systems engineering, along with the usual IT stuff anywhere - look for companies like that.  It isn't perfect, but always think of the other side of the coin - a company isn't psychic and can't predict you might be a great developer, it is a rough call for them to stack you up against anybody else who does have some experience.  Be willing to work near software development and the chance to transfer may come up.  Work on something at home on your own time (balance that so you aren't totally burned out for your day job) so you keep learning and keep your skills up.  This probably isn't what you want to hear but that's the reality of the current situation.  If you go this route, be patient, and keep searching job openings to stay up on what is in demand.  I was pigeon-holed a bit at my previous job and found out the hard way all about what skills were marketable in the previous geographic region.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is a rough job market to be graduating into... that being said , these dips occur all the time so you have to be prepared for them .
But the job market itself has changed .
I graduated with a B.S.E.E .
in 1990 , and had some software development experience from a summer internship .
However , I decided to attend grad school ( personal goal to get a Masters ) , but kept an eye out for more summer work .
By the time I got my Masters , I had a second internship as a software developer with another company , and also had networked and worked a contract position doing some PERL scripting for a local ISP.Not that you have a time machine or anything , but you should have been trying to find a position getting any kind of software development experience , while you were still a student .
Perhaps working for a professor as a research software developer , or in your college 's IT bureaucracy somewhere .
Do co-op positions still exist ?
My current employer has a summer program , but obviously that is n't something you can look into late March before a May graduation date .
If none of that works out , improve some open-source software and at least be able to show something , as a leg up on the competition .
Not to be an old fart talking about a bygone era , but back when I was entry level , getting experience on real software was n't as easy ( open source was n't as visible ) so companies did n't look for it to the extent they might these days.Now I realize it just is n't always that simple... software dev positions are hyper-specialized these days .
Companies wanted web programmers with years of experience on specific frameworks , C # /.NET positions with years of UI experience , Java with domain specific experience ( simulation/modeling as it turned out ) and preferably with a security clearance , C + + experience with X years doing Y , even companies wanting candidates with experience at working at other companies of the same size ( startup to startup , small to small ) , etc .
That second summer internship I had was at computer company needing a combo of Windows developer AND Novell Netware developer ( this was back in the early-mid 90 's ) .
Not many ( any ?
) people had that combo so they were willing to take on a generalist who they thought was fairly sharp and could learn .
I really did n't have either coming out of school in that era .
These days , I 'm not sure many places do that anymore , which I think is really unfortunate .
Especially now , with high unemployment , companies can filter for their exact requirements and still have too many resumes to sift through.Lastly , I would say be realistic , you might have to take some other position just to have a job .
That does n't have to be the end of your career before it even starts , a lot of getting to where you want to go involves getting your foot in the door in order to prove yourself .
Where I work now has a mix of software dev and systems engineering , along with the usual IT stuff anywhere - look for companies like that .
It is n't perfect , but always think of the other side of the coin - a company is n't psychic and ca n't predict you might be a great developer , it is a rough call for them to stack you up against anybody else who does have some experience .
Be willing to work near software development and the chance to transfer may come up .
Work on something at home on your own time ( balance that so you are n't totally burned out for your day job ) so you keep learning and keep your skills up .
This probably is n't what you want to hear but that 's the reality of the current situation .
If you go this route , be patient , and keep searching job openings to stay up on what is in demand .
I was pigeon-holed a bit at my previous job and found out the hard way all about what skills were marketable in the previous geographic region .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is a rough job market to be graduating into... that being said, these dips occur all the time so you have to be prepared for them.
But the job market itself has changed.
I graduated with a B.S.E.E.
in 1990, and had some software development experience from a summer internship.
However, I decided to attend grad school (personal goal to get a Masters), but kept an eye out for more summer work.
By the time I got my Masters, I had a second internship as a software developer with another company, and also had networked and worked a contract position doing some PERL scripting for a local ISP.Not that you have a time machine or anything, but you should have been trying to find a position getting any kind of software development experience, while you were still a student.
Perhaps working for a professor as a research software developer, or in your college's IT bureaucracy somewhere.
Do co-op positions still exist?
My current employer has a summer program, but obviously that isn't something you can look into late March before a May graduation date.
If none of that works out, improve some open-source software and at least be able to show something, as a leg up on the competition.
Not to be an old fart talking about a bygone era, but back when I was entry level, getting experience on real software wasn't as easy (open source wasn't as visible) so companies didn't look for it to the extent they might these days.Now I realize it just isn't always that simple... software dev positions are hyper-specialized these days.
Companies wanted web programmers with years of experience on specific frameworks, C#/.NET positions with years of UI experience, Java with domain specific experience (simulation/modeling as it turned out) and preferably with a security clearance, C++ experience with X years doing Y, even companies wanting candidates with experience at working at other companies of the same size (startup to startup, small to small), etc.
That second summer internship I had was at computer company needing a combo of Windows developer AND Novell Netware developer (this was back in the early-mid 90's).
Not many (any?
) people had that combo so they were willing to take on a generalist who they thought was fairly sharp and could learn.
I really didn't have either coming out of school in that era.
These days, I'm not sure many places do that anymore, which I think is really unfortunate.
Especially now, with high unemployment, companies can filter for their exact requirements and still have too many resumes to sift through.Lastly, I would say be realistic, you might have to take some other position just to have a job.
That doesn't have to be the end of your career before it even starts, a lot of getting to where you want to go involves getting your foot in the door in order to prove yourself.
Where I work now has a mix of software dev and systems engineering, along with the usual IT stuff anywhere - look for companies like that.
It isn't perfect, but always think of the other side of the coin - a company isn't psychic and can't predict you might be a great developer, it is a rough call for them to stack you up against anybody else who does have some experience.
Be willing to work near software development and the chance to transfer may come up.
Work on something at home on your own time (balance that so you aren't totally burned out for your day job) so you keep learning and keep your skills up.
This probably isn't what you want to hear but that's the reality of the current situation.
If you go this route, be patient, and keep searching job openings to stay up on what is in demand.
I was pigeon-holed a bit at my previous job and found out the hard way all about what skills were marketable in the previous geographic region.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651208</id>
	<title>Re:Apply</title>
	<author>AndrewBC</author>
	<datestamp>1269776940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I second the importance of the portfolio. Resume-talk is just that: talk. I wasn't able to really get a foot in the door in development until I took a month to fill out my portfolio with job-related projects. Since then, I've been able to raise much more interest from the beginning of every time I contact someone about a job.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I second the importance of the portfolio .
Resume-talk is just that : talk .
I was n't able to really get a foot in the door in development until I took a month to fill out my portfolio with job-related projects .
Since then , I 've been able to raise much more interest from the beginning of every time I contact someone about a job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I second the importance of the portfolio.
Resume-talk is just that: talk.
I wasn't able to really get a foot in the door in development until I took a month to fill out my portfolio with job-related projects.
Since then, I've been able to raise much more interest from the beginning of every time I contact someone about a job.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650362</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651000</id>
	<title>Here is what you do:</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269775260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Find a decent recruiting firm and forge a relationship with them.</p><p>Apply at consulting / solution provider companies. They tend to have high turn around and are always adding new staff to replace those who have moved on or adding folks to work on projects. Microsoft partners that do custom development or product customization (e.g. SharePoint, CRM) offer good opportunities. Certifications help here.</p><p>Move to a big city. There is just more opportunity. If you are in the US, D.C. is a great place to be right now for jobs. After a couple of years, move back home if you want to. You will seem like a total badass with big city experience.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Find a decent recruiting firm and forge a relationship with them.Apply at consulting / solution provider companies .
They tend to have high turn around and are always adding new staff to replace those who have moved on or adding folks to work on projects .
Microsoft partners that do custom development or product customization ( e.g .
SharePoint , CRM ) offer good opportunities .
Certifications help here.Move to a big city .
There is just more opportunity .
If you are in the US , D.C. is a great place to be right now for jobs .
After a couple of years , move back home if you want to .
You will seem like a total badass with big city experience .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Find a decent recruiting firm and forge a relationship with them.Apply at consulting / solution provider companies.
They tend to have high turn around and are always adding new staff to replace those who have moved on or adding folks to work on projects.
Microsoft partners that do custom development or product customization (e.g.
SharePoint, CRM) offer good opportunities.
Certifications help here.Move to a big city.
There is just more opportunity.
If you are in the US, D.C. is a great place to be right now for jobs.
After a couple of years, move back home if you want to.
You will seem like a total badass with big city experience.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652386</id>
	<title>Re:Here's The Problem.</title>
	<author>magus\_melchior</author>
	<datestamp>1269787680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Back when I was a teenager, I got my first job in radio by hanging around the station constantly. I took out the trash. I annoyed the engineer and asked a thousand questions. I was willing to do anything to prove that I wanted the job.</p></div></blockquote><p>Sometimes that's a good way to shoehorn yourself into a job, as <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kari\_Byron" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">this woman</a> [wikipedia.org] can tell you.</p><p>Of course, that depends on the company; some will just kick you to the curb.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Back when I was a teenager , I got my first job in radio by hanging around the station constantly .
I took out the trash .
I annoyed the engineer and asked a thousand questions .
I was willing to do anything to prove that I wanted the job.Sometimes that 's a good way to shoehorn yourself into a job , as this woman [ wikipedia.org ] can tell you.Of course , that depends on the company ; some will just kick you to the curb .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Back when I was a teenager, I got my first job in radio by hanging around the station constantly.
I took out the trash.
I annoyed the engineer and asked a thousand questions.
I was willing to do anything to prove that I wanted the job.Sometimes that's a good way to shoehorn yourself into a job, as this woman [wikipedia.org] can tell you.Of course, that depends on the company; some will just kick you to the curb.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650320</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31656018</id>
	<title>Re:show off your programming skills</title>
	<author>sshuber</author>
	<datestamp>1269872520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>When I went to the interview for my job, I brought source code and the compiled executables along. These were independent studies and small group projects where we weren't spoon fed like normal class projects, so it reflected well my coding abilities. The interviewers really liked the code and the fact that I provided it to them so I ended up getting the job and am now making over 50K a year at an "entry-level" position. I strongly recommend this route.</htmltext>
<tokenext>When I went to the interview for my job , I brought source code and the compiled executables along .
These were independent studies and small group projects where we were n't spoon fed like normal class projects , so it reflected well my coding abilities .
The interviewers really liked the code and the fact that I provided it to them so I ended up getting the job and am now making over 50K a year at an " entry-level " position .
I strongly recommend this route .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I went to the interview for my job, I brought source code and the compiled executables along.
These were independent studies and small group projects where we weren't spoon fed like normal class projects, so it reflected well my coding abilities.
The interviewers really liked the code and the fact that I provided it to them so I ended up getting the job and am now making over 50K a year at an "entry-level" position.
I strongly recommend this route.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650214</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650376</id>
	<title>Re:show off your programming skills</title>
	<author>PaintyThePirate</author>
	<datestamp>1269771300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Agreed.  It's a little known fact that you can apply to GSoC as long as you are still a student as of April 26, 2010.  It's likely what got me interviews, and eventually my job.<br> <br>FOSS projects tend not to care about who you know, where you studied, or what your GPA was, as much as they care about your creativity, your drive, and your skills.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Agreed .
It 's a little known fact that you can apply to GSoC as long as you are still a student as of April 26 , 2010 .
It 's likely what got me interviews , and eventually my job .
FOSS projects tend not to care about who you know , where you studied , or what your GPA was , as much as they care about your creativity , your drive , and your skills .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Agreed.
It's a little known fact that you can apply to GSoC as long as you are still a student as of April 26, 2010.
It's likely what got me interviews, and eventually my job.
FOSS projects tend not to care about who you know, where you studied, or what your GPA was, as much as they care about your creativity, your drive, and your skills.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650214</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31653192</id>
	<title>Just went through the same ordeal...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269796200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I recently went through the same thing.  The big thing is not to get discouraged.  You're going to put out a ton of resumes and not hear anything.  Consider that if you're replying to monster or even craigslist ads that they're typically looking at over 100 resumes for a single position.  Consider also that the economy sucks and there are many people with YEARS of experience apply for the same "entry-level position".  Given those conditions if your resume has the smallest tarnish on it the HR monster will toss it in the trash, it's unfortunate, but they can be that picky right now.  Keep at it, don't get discouraged.</p><p>1.  Network.  Use your family, friends, people you've had classes with, people you've met at conferences, your neighbors, the people you play online games with, whoever you can think of to ask that is in the field.  If you can hear about and apply to a position before a company posts it publicly, you just drastically reduced the amount of competition you'll have for that spot, plus hopefully have an insider recommendation.</p><p>2.  Do whatever you can to bolster your resume/portfolio.  While you're in school you can typically find a professor or department that needs some programming or IT work and will pay you for it (albeit in beans).  After school, you can work on side projects or take an internship while you're looking for a job.  OSS, develop some code for something in your community (church, school, NPO, whatever)...you won't get paid but it will give you something that's in production that you can brag about.</p><p>3.  Look for small companies.  Maybe it's not where you want to end up long term, but when you're just starting out you need to get a couple years of experience.  Find small companies that post job openings on their website but not on monster, dice, etc.  It can be tedious doing the research but you can dig up all sorts of public records regarding companies in a state who employ whatever profession you're interested in.  Then go to those companies' websites and see if they're hiring.</p><p>4.  Make sure you're familiar with version control software like CVS or SVN, whatever IDE is applicable to the languages you're familiar with, and build tools such as ant and make.  Your school may not have taught you about them or required you to use these tools.  When you get a job you're almost certainly going to be working with a team of programmers in some sort of standardized development process using these tools...you WILL be asked about them in your interview.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I recently went through the same thing .
The big thing is not to get discouraged .
You 're going to put out a ton of resumes and not hear anything .
Consider that if you 're replying to monster or even craigslist ads that they 're typically looking at over 100 resumes for a single position .
Consider also that the economy sucks and there are many people with YEARS of experience apply for the same " entry-level position " .
Given those conditions if your resume has the smallest tarnish on it the HR monster will toss it in the trash , it 's unfortunate , but they can be that picky right now .
Keep at it , do n't get discouraged.1 .
Network. Use your family , friends , people you 've had classes with , people you 've met at conferences , your neighbors , the people you play online games with , whoever you can think of to ask that is in the field .
If you can hear about and apply to a position before a company posts it publicly , you just drastically reduced the amount of competition you 'll have for that spot , plus hopefully have an insider recommendation.2 .
Do whatever you can to bolster your resume/portfolio .
While you 're in school you can typically find a professor or department that needs some programming or IT work and will pay you for it ( albeit in beans ) .
After school , you can work on side projects or take an internship while you 're looking for a job .
OSS , develop some code for something in your community ( church , school , NPO , whatever ) ...you wo n't get paid but it will give you something that 's in production that you can brag about.3 .
Look for small companies .
Maybe it 's not where you want to end up long term , but when you 're just starting out you need to get a couple years of experience .
Find small companies that post job openings on their website but not on monster , dice , etc .
It can be tedious doing the research but you can dig up all sorts of public records regarding companies in a state who employ whatever profession you 're interested in .
Then go to those companies ' websites and see if they 're hiring.4 .
Make sure you 're familiar with version control software like CVS or SVN , whatever IDE is applicable to the languages you 're familiar with , and build tools such as ant and make .
Your school may not have taught you about them or required you to use these tools .
When you get a job you 're almost certainly going to be working with a team of programmers in some sort of standardized development process using these tools...you WILL be asked about them in your interview .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I recently went through the same thing.
The big thing is not to get discouraged.
You're going to put out a ton of resumes and not hear anything.
Consider that if you're replying to monster or even craigslist ads that they're typically looking at over 100 resumes for a single position.
Consider also that the economy sucks and there are many people with YEARS of experience apply for the same "entry-level position".
Given those conditions if your resume has the smallest tarnish on it the HR monster will toss it in the trash, it's unfortunate, but they can be that picky right now.
Keep at it, don't get discouraged.1.
Network.  Use your family, friends, people you've had classes with, people you've met at conferences, your neighbors, the people you play online games with, whoever you can think of to ask that is in the field.
If you can hear about and apply to a position before a company posts it publicly, you just drastically reduced the amount of competition you'll have for that spot, plus hopefully have an insider recommendation.2.
Do whatever you can to bolster your resume/portfolio.
While you're in school you can typically find a professor or department that needs some programming or IT work and will pay you for it (albeit in beans).
After school, you can work on side projects or take an internship while you're looking for a job.
OSS, develop some code for something in your community (church, school, NPO, whatever)...you won't get paid but it will give you something that's in production that you can brag about.3.
Look for small companies.
Maybe it's not where you want to end up long term, but when you're just starting out you need to get a couple years of experience.
Find small companies that post job openings on their website but not on monster, dice, etc.
It can be tedious doing the research but you can dig up all sorts of public records regarding companies in a state who employ whatever profession you're interested in.
Then go to those companies' websites and see if they're hiring.4.
Make sure you're familiar with version control software like CVS or SVN, whatever IDE is applicable to the languages you're familiar with, and build tools such as ant and make.
Your school may not have taught you about them or required you to use these tools.
When you get a job you're almost certainly going to be working with a team of programmers in some sort of standardized development process using these tools...you WILL be asked about them in your interview.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650620</id>
	<title>Grad school</title>
	<author>Vyse of Arcadia</author>
	<datestamp>1269772980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Why not apply to grad school? A master's degree plus the experience gained from doing even a little of your own research will look great in a few years.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why not apply to grad school ?
A master 's degree plus the experience gained from doing even a little of your own research will look great in a few years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why not apply to grad school?
A master's degree plus the experience gained from doing even a little of your own research will look great in a few years.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651830</id>
	<title>Re:It is not a great time</title>
	<author>Totenglocke</author>
	<datestamp>1269782160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As someone who has a few years experience after graduating college, getting laid off due to budget cuts, and recently finding a new job, I can say that the hiring managers like you are horribly taking advantage of the bad economy.  I can't count how many job postings I saw online where it said "entry level" and then said "requires minimum 5-7 years experience" - that's not fucking entry level then.  An entry level job requires <i>no</i> experience and maybe says "some experience preferred".  You weren't concerned with finding the "best candidate" for the job, you thought "Oh, here's a mid-career guy who's laid off and desperate so he can feed his wife and kids, so I'll hire him for an entry level job and pay him 1/3 of what his work is actually worth".</p><p><div class="quote"><p>But when I have someone with a proven track record who I KNOW will not require only minimal supervision and will bring more to the table</p></div><p>Actually, you DON'T <i>know</i> that.  He sent you a resume that said "I had a job for 12 years" - nothing in that proves that he's smarter, more capable, or a harder worker than those college grads with no experience.  I personally have met people who have over a decade of experience who've admitted that they don't know shit about how to do their job, they BS their way past hiring managers like you, work for a couple years without really producing anything, then BS a new manager and change jobs after a couple years before the previous company realized they were incompetent - and they keep getting raises when they go from company to company too.  I learned very quickly in my job search that actual ability to do the job means pretty much jack shit.  It's all about having something flashy to wave in front of the HR persons face and distract them from actually seeing if you're capable or not.  It's sort of like this <a href="http://www.barneysvideoresume.com/" title="barneysvideoresume.com">http://www.barneysvideoresume.com/</a> [barneysvideoresume.com] - a hiring manager would rather see flashy, incoherent, totally irrelevant crap like that "resume" video than someone who's intelligent, hardworking, knows how to do the job, but isn't an arrogant prick.</p><p>I'm not against capitalism - I'm all for it.  However, nothing about capitalism says that you have to be an asshole and take advantage of people who are down on their luck due to a crappy economy.  I'm sure you'd look at it differently if you were the one getting turned down for an entry level job because you didn't have 5+ years experience or if you could only get a job paying 1/3 of what you had been making.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>My solution.... if you are still in school... get a fricking internship.</p></div><p>Except even internships are incredibly rare since the economy went down - and when there is one, every single student in that field from every college within 50 miles will apply for it, meaning that you'll be up against hundreds if not thousands of other applicants, and we all know that hiring managers don't want to actually go through that many resumes, so they'll randomly grab a few and pick from that and discard the rest without a glance.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>As someone who has a few years experience after graduating college , getting laid off due to budget cuts , and recently finding a new job , I can say that the hiring managers like you are horribly taking advantage of the bad economy .
I ca n't count how many job postings I saw online where it said " entry level " and then said " requires minimum 5-7 years experience " - that 's not fucking entry level then .
An entry level job requires no experience and maybe says " some experience preferred " .
You were n't concerned with finding the " best candidate " for the job , you thought " Oh , here 's a mid-career guy who 's laid off and desperate so he can feed his wife and kids , so I 'll hire him for an entry level job and pay him 1/3 of what his work is actually worth " .But when I have someone with a proven track record who I KNOW will not require only minimal supervision and will bring more to the tableActually , you DO N'T know that .
He sent you a resume that said " I had a job for 12 years " - nothing in that proves that he 's smarter , more capable , or a harder worker than those college grads with no experience .
I personally have met people who have over a decade of experience who 've admitted that they do n't know shit about how to do their job , they BS their way past hiring managers like you , work for a couple years without really producing anything , then BS a new manager and change jobs after a couple years before the previous company realized they were incompetent - and they keep getting raises when they go from company to company too .
I learned very quickly in my job search that actual ability to do the job means pretty much jack shit .
It 's all about having something flashy to wave in front of the HR persons face and distract them from actually seeing if you 're capable or not .
It 's sort of like this http : //www.barneysvideoresume.com/ [ barneysvideoresume.com ] - a hiring manager would rather see flashy , incoherent , totally irrelevant crap like that " resume " video than someone who 's intelligent , hardworking , knows how to do the job , but is n't an arrogant prick.I 'm not against capitalism - I 'm all for it .
However , nothing about capitalism says that you have to be an asshole and take advantage of people who are down on their luck due to a crappy economy .
I 'm sure you 'd look at it differently if you were the one getting turned down for an entry level job because you did n't have 5 + years experience or if you could only get a job paying 1/3 of what you had been making.My solution.... if you are still in school... get a fricking internship.Except even internships are incredibly rare since the economy went down - and when there is one , every single student in that field from every college within 50 miles will apply for it , meaning that you 'll be up against hundreds if not thousands of other applicants , and we all know that hiring managers do n't want to actually go through that many resumes , so they 'll randomly grab a few and pick from that and discard the rest without a glance .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As someone who has a few years experience after graduating college, getting laid off due to budget cuts, and recently finding a new job, I can say that the hiring managers like you are horribly taking advantage of the bad economy.
I can't count how many job postings I saw online where it said "entry level" and then said "requires minimum 5-7 years experience" - that's not fucking entry level then.
An entry level job requires no experience and maybe says "some experience preferred".
You weren't concerned with finding the "best candidate" for the job, you thought "Oh, here's a mid-career guy who's laid off and desperate so he can feed his wife and kids, so I'll hire him for an entry level job and pay him 1/3 of what his work is actually worth".But when I have someone with a proven track record who I KNOW will not require only minimal supervision and will bring more to the tableActually, you DON'T know that.
He sent you a resume that said "I had a job for 12 years" - nothing in that proves that he's smarter, more capable, or a harder worker than those college grads with no experience.
I personally have met people who have over a decade of experience who've admitted that they don't know shit about how to do their job, they BS their way past hiring managers like you, work for a couple years without really producing anything, then BS a new manager and change jobs after a couple years before the previous company realized they were incompetent - and they keep getting raises when they go from company to company too.
I learned very quickly in my job search that actual ability to do the job means pretty much jack shit.
It's all about having something flashy to wave in front of the HR persons face and distract them from actually seeing if you're capable or not.
It's sort of like this http://www.barneysvideoresume.com/ [barneysvideoresume.com] - a hiring manager would rather see flashy, incoherent, totally irrelevant crap like that "resume" video than someone who's intelligent, hardworking, knows how to do the job, but isn't an arrogant prick.I'm not against capitalism - I'm all for it.
However, nothing about capitalism says that you have to be an asshole and take advantage of people who are down on their luck due to a crappy economy.
I'm sure you'd look at it differently if you were the one getting turned down for an entry level job because you didn't have 5+ years experience or if you could only get a job paying 1/3 of what you had been making.My solution.... if you are still in school... get a fricking internship.Except even internships are incredibly rare since the economy went down - and when there is one, every single student in that field from every college within 50 miles will apply for it, meaning that you'll be up against hundreds if not thousands of other applicants, and we all know that hiring managers don't want to actually go through that many resumes, so they'll randomly grab a few and pick from that and discard the rest without a glance.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650316</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650362</id>
	<title>Re:Apply</title>
	<author>BitZtream</author>
	<datestamp>1269771240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Self reply but I have to<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</p><blockquote><div><p>I can program!</p></div></blockquote><p>No, you can throw code at a computer and get it to produce something you want.  Thats not impressive.  The first thing your first job is going to do is break down all the bullshit you got fed in school and introduce you to the realities of real world programming.</p><blockquote><div><p>It seems to me that developers are always looking for talented young programmers. We're out here looking for you too. Am I missing something?"</p></div></blockquote><p>Yes, you aren't talented.  You're not special.  You are just like every other graduate thats had a few programming classes.  Sorry, but thats just reality.</p><p>You are not going to get a 'good job' because there are FAR FAR FAR more people out there looking for those jobs right now with years of 'experience' on paper that you don't have.</p><p>The lack of experience puts you at the bottom of the food chain, you have to compete with me, and my 20 years of writing software, and the thousands of others like me.</p><p>My wife recently graduated Vet school and is upset because she couldn't go get the perfect cushie job fresh out and had to work a shitty job for a few months.  Thats just reality.  You went to school just to get on a level playing field with all the other people who went to school.  Look at how many people graduated with you that want to do exactly what you do.  Did your school produce more programmers than your locality can consume?  If so, how do you expect to get a job at all if your school is producing more people to do a job than there are job slots to fill.</p><p>First step in joining the business world:  Businesses lie.  They aren't looking for talented developers RIGHT NOW, but if you happen to be completely kick ass and submit a resume at the right time, they might pick you up anyway.  Every companies website lists job offerings, 99\% of the time they have no real intention of filling them.</p><p>They are looking for experienced programmers they can hire at the rate of a entry level programmer.  If they find it, they'll hire them, but they'll just turn you down unless you have something really impressive that stands out.</p><p>How are you showing them your skills?  A resume?  I've hired a few developers in my time, I assure you the only people that care about your resume is HR.  When a potential employer asks you what you've done, are you just going to point out class projects where you were essentially spoon fed every step of the process?  Thats not going to win you any points.  You need something to show them you are worth hiring and nothing on a resume is going to do it.</p><p>Regardless of everything I've said above, be it right or wrong, you have one serious disadvantage.  You're looking for a job at the worst possible time.  For the last 10-12 years schools have been pumping out 'developers' who are just random people that signed up for CS because they thought they could get rich quick.  Now you're coming into  the job market, 15 years too late, with an education that was out of date before you graduated from highschool, during an economy were all the other mediocre but far more experienced 'developers' out there are looking for jobs as well.</p><p>You're only hope is to get a job from a friend of a friend of a friend.  So make so friend in the right places, work some crappy job in the interim and put some effort into making a portfolio of sorts and wait for a better time to find a job or some luck.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Self reply but I have to ...I can program ! No , you can throw code at a computer and get it to produce something you want .
Thats not impressive .
The first thing your first job is going to do is break down all the bullshit you got fed in school and introduce you to the realities of real world programming.It seems to me that developers are always looking for talented young programmers .
We 're out here looking for you too .
Am I missing something ?
" Yes , you are n't talented .
You 're not special .
You are just like every other graduate thats had a few programming classes .
Sorry , but thats just reality.You are not going to get a 'good job ' because there are FAR FAR FAR more people out there looking for those jobs right now with years of 'experience ' on paper that you do n't have.The lack of experience puts you at the bottom of the food chain , you have to compete with me , and my 20 years of writing software , and the thousands of others like me.My wife recently graduated Vet school and is upset because she could n't go get the perfect cushie job fresh out and had to work a shitty job for a few months .
Thats just reality .
You went to school just to get on a level playing field with all the other people who went to school .
Look at how many people graduated with you that want to do exactly what you do .
Did your school produce more programmers than your locality can consume ?
If so , how do you expect to get a job at all if your school is producing more people to do a job than there are job slots to fill.First step in joining the business world : Businesses lie .
They are n't looking for talented developers RIGHT NOW , but if you happen to be completely kick ass and submit a resume at the right time , they might pick you up anyway .
Every companies website lists job offerings , 99 \ % of the time they have no real intention of filling them.They are looking for experienced programmers they can hire at the rate of a entry level programmer .
If they find it , they 'll hire them , but they 'll just turn you down unless you have something really impressive that stands out.How are you showing them your skills ?
A resume ?
I 've hired a few developers in my time , I assure you the only people that care about your resume is HR .
When a potential employer asks you what you 've done , are you just going to point out class projects where you were essentially spoon fed every step of the process ?
Thats not going to win you any points .
You need something to show them you are worth hiring and nothing on a resume is going to do it.Regardless of everything I 've said above , be it right or wrong , you have one serious disadvantage .
You 're looking for a job at the worst possible time .
For the last 10-12 years schools have been pumping out 'developers ' who are just random people that signed up for CS because they thought they could get rich quick .
Now you 're coming into the job market , 15 years too late , with an education that was out of date before you graduated from highschool , during an economy were all the other mediocre but far more experienced 'developers ' out there are looking for jobs as well.You 're only hope is to get a job from a friend of a friend of a friend .
So make so friend in the right places , work some crappy job in the interim and put some effort into making a portfolio of sorts and wait for a better time to find a job or some luck .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Self reply but I have to ...I can program!No, you can throw code at a computer and get it to produce something you want.
Thats not impressive.
The first thing your first job is going to do is break down all the bullshit you got fed in school and introduce you to the realities of real world programming.It seems to me that developers are always looking for talented young programmers.
We're out here looking for you too.
Am I missing something?
"Yes, you aren't talented.
You're not special.
You are just like every other graduate thats had a few programming classes.
Sorry, but thats just reality.You are not going to get a 'good job' because there are FAR FAR FAR more people out there looking for those jobs right now with years of 'experience' on paper that you don't have.The lack of experience puts you at the bottom of the food chain, you have to compete with me, and my 20 years of writing software, and the thousands of others like me.My wife recently graduated Vet school and is upset because she couldn't go get the perfect cushie job fresh out and had to work a shitty job for a few months.
Thats just reality.
You went to school just to get on a level playing field with all the other people who went to school.
Look at how many people graduated with you that want to do exactly what you do.
Did your school produce more programmers than your locality can consume?
If so, how do you expect to get a job at all if your school is producing more people to do a job than there are job slots to fill.First step in joining the business world:  Businesses lie.
They aren't looking for talented developers RIGHT NOW, but if you happen to be completely kick ass and submit a resume at the right time, they might pick you up anyway.
Every companies website lists job offerings, 99\% of the time they have no real intention of filling them.They are looking for experienced programmers they can hire at the rate of a entry level programmer.
If they find it, they'll hire them, but they'll just turn you down unless you have something really impressive that stands out.How are you showing them your skills?
A resume?
I've hired a few developers in my time, I assure you the only people that care about your resume is HR.
When a potential employer asks you what you've done, are you just going to point out class projects where you were essentially spoon fed every step of the process?
Thats not going to win you any points.
You need something to show them you are worth hiring and nothing on a resume is going to do it.Regardless of everything I've said above, be it right or wrong, you have one serious disadvantage.
You're looking for a job at the worst possible time.
For the last 10-12 years schools have been pumping out 'developers' who are just random people that signed up for CS because they thought they could get rich quick.
Now you're coming into  the job market, 15 years too late, with an education that was out of date before you graduated from highschool, during an economy were all the other mediocre but far more experienced 'developers' out there are looking for jobs as well.You're only hope is to get a job from a friend of a friend of a friend.
So make so friend in the right places, work some crappy job in the interim and put some effort into making a portfolio of sorts and wait for a better time to find a job or some luck.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650210</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652752</id>
	<title>Ships passing in the night</title>
	<author>Todd Knarr</author>
	<datestamp>1269791460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You aren't missing anything. The problem is HR. The people actually hiring don't evaluate resumes at companies of any size. They send a position summary to HR, who handle that. When you submit a resume, it goes to HR. HR then scans your resume for the keywords from the position summary. If your resume doesn't contain exactly the right keywords (which you don't know), then HR bins your resume and the people who know what to look for never even see it. Meanwhile the scam artists (whether the candidate themselves or the recruiter submitting their resume) know exactly how to put the right keywords in, so what does go through to the hiring manager is the people who aren't qualified. Which leaves both hiring managers and candidates griping.</p><p>Yes, I've been through this from the hiring side. After one particularly fruitless batch I got permission from my manager to go twist HR's arms until they coughed up the rejected resumes. And lo and behold, we found 5 interviewable candidates from the batch HR said weren't qualified. My manager was, needless to say, Not Amused, and made his lack of amusement felt.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You are n't missing anything .
The problem is HR .
The people actually hiring do n't evaluate resumes at companies of any size .
They send a position summary to HR , who handle that .
When you submit a resume , it goes to HR .
HR then scans your resume for the keywords from the position summary .
If your resume does n't contain exactly the right keywords ( which you do n't know ) , then HR bins your resume and the people who know what to look for never even see it .
Meanwhile the scam artists ( whether the candidate themselves or the recruiter submitting their resume ) know exactly how to put the right keywords in , so what does go through to the hiring manager is the people who are n't qualified .
Which leaves both hiring managers and candidates griping.Yes , I 've been through this from the hiring side .
After one particularly fruitless batch I got permission from my manager to go twist HR 's arms until they coughed up the rejected resumes .
And lo and behold , we found 5 interviewable candidates from the batch HR said were n't qualified .
My manager was , needless to say , Not Amused , and made his lack of amusement felt .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You aren't missing anything.
The problem is HR.
The people actually hiring don't evaluate resumes at companies of any size.
They send a position summary to HR, who handle that.
When you submit a resume, it goes to HR.
HR then scans your resume for the keywords from the position summary.
If your resume doesn't contain exactly the right keywords (which you don't know), then HR bins your resume and the people who know what to look for never even see it.
Meanwhile the scam artists (whether the candidate themselves or the recruiter submitting their resume) know exactly how to put the right keywords in, so what does go through to the hiring manager is the people who aren't qualified.
Which leaves both hiring managers and candidates griping.Yes, I've been through this from the hiring side.
After one particularly fruitless batch I got permission from my manager to go twist HR's arms until they coughed up the rejected resumes.
And lo and behold, we found 5 interviewable candidates from the batch HR said weren't qualified.
My manager was, needless to say, Not Amused, and made his lack of amusement felt.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650318</id>
	<title>Consider moving and need more information</title>
	<author>jeff4747</author>
	<datestamp>1269770940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You don't say where you are located, which has an enormous effect on your ability to land a job.  Some job markets are terrible, and others are wonderful.  If you've moved from the former to the latter, your job prospects will improve greatly.  In the current economy, "Labor mobility" is very important to finding a good job.</p><p>Also, "Programming" is a rather broad area.  What kind of programming are you interested in?  What industry do you want to work for?  Figure out where those companies are located, and move there.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You do n't say where you are located , which has an enormous effect on your ability to land a job .
Some job markets are terrible , and others are wonderful .
If you 've moved from the former to the latter , your job prospects will improve greatly .
In the current economy , " Labor mobility " is very important to finding a good job.Also , " Programming " is a rather broad area .
What kind of programming are you interested in ?
What industry do you want to work for ?
Figure out where those companies are located , and move there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You don't say where you are located, which has an enormous effect on your ability to land a job.
Some job markets are terrible, and others are wonderful.
If you've moved from the former to the latter, your job prospects will improve greatly.
In the current economy, "Labor mobility" is very important to finding a good job.Also, "Programming" is a rather broad area.
What kind of programming are you interested in?
What industry do you want to work for?
Figure out where those companies are located, and move there.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650710</id>
	<title>Enlist</title>
	<author>elucido</author>
	<datestamp>1269773640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Thats one way to get an entry level job.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Thats one way to get an entry level job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thats one way to get an entry level job.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31656118</id>
	<title>Try a large consulting firm...</title>
	<author>cobowers</author>
	<datestamp>1269873000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>So I was in the same position as submitter in 2k4, the year with the largest number of CS graduates, and also a year with a bad economy (bubble was finishing up being burst).
<br> <br>
It took me 18 months to finally find a job, and to get it, I had to go through a one month Java "training" class with Accenture (Accenture Techonology Solutions actually) where I was paid minimum wage.  It sucked, and it was a hard way to figure out that the the promise of $50k+ the day I graduated was a lie.  The idea behind the class was, they got to test everyone for a month, see if they could actually code, then hire who they wanted, to do whatever they wanted.  Some of the people in my class had to go into testing, which IMO is a career killer, but at least one guy I knew made it out and is a developer now.  The thing is, if you do go to a large consulting firm, unless you manage to get to a really good place, I say get some experience, then start talking to a job placement firm, and be willing to take a contract or contract to hire job.  The large contracting firms try to make coding like assembly line work, and yeah, it creates a repeatable, deliverable product, but it also creates line workers.  Being a line worker is no fun.
<br> <br>
Above is the path I took, I'm now almost 5 years in to the industry, and went from a consulting firm, to a placement firm, then was placed a small company where I've been able to create some awesome software and I am fairly compensated.  It's really rewarding, but it took time, and I had to eat some crow at the beginning.</htmltext>
<tokenext>So I was in the same position as submitter in 2k4 , the year with the largest number of CS graduates , and also a year with a bad economy ( bubble was finishing up being burst ) .
It took me 18 months to finally find a job , and to get it , I had to go through a one month Java " training " class with Accenture ( Accenture Techonology Solutions actually ) where I was paid minimum wage .
It sucked , and it was a hard way to figure out that the the promise of $ 50k + the day I graduated was a lie .
The idea behind the class was , they got to test everyone for a month , see if they could actually code , then hire who they wanted , to do whatever they wanted .
Some of the people in my class had to go into testing , which IMO is a career killer , but at least one guy I knew made it out and is a developer now .
The thing is , if you do go to a large consulting firm , unless you manage to get to a really good place , I say get some experience , then start talking to a job placement firm , and be willing to take a contract or contract to hire job .
The large contracting firms try to make coding like assembly line work , and yeah , it creates a repeatable , deliverable product , but it also creates line workers .
Being a line worker is no fun .
Above is the path I took , I 'm now almost 5 years in to the industry , and went from a consulting firm , to a placement firm , then was placed a small company where I 've been able to create some awesome software and I am fairly compensated .
It 's really rewarding , but it took time , and I had to eat some crow at the beginning .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So I was in the same position as submitter in 2k4, the year with the largest number of CS graduates, and also a year with a bad economy (bubble was finishing up being burst).
It took me 18 months to finally find a job, and to get it, I had to go through a one month Java "training" class with Accenture (Accenture Techonology Solutions actually) where I was paid minimum wage.
It sucked, and it was a hard way to figure out that the the promise of $50k+ the day I graduated was a lie.
The idea behind the class was, they got to test everyone for a month, see if they could actually code, then hire who they wanted, to do whatever they wanted.
Some of the people in my class had to go into testing, which IMO is a career killer, but at least one guy I knew made it out and is a developer now.
The thing is, if you do go to a large consulting firm, unless you manage to get to a really good place, I say get some experience, then start talking to a job placement firm, and be willing to take a contract or contract to hire job.
The large contracting firms try to make coding like assembly line work, and yeah, it creates a repeatable, deliverable product, but it also creates line workers.
Being a line worker is no fun.
Above is the path I took, I'm now almost 5 years in to the industry, and went from a consulting firm, to a placement firm, then was placed a small company where I've been able to create some awesome software and I am fairly compensated.
It's really rewarding, but it took time, and I had to eat some crow at the beginning.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31659182</id>
	<title>Re:show off your programming skills</title>
	<author>nblender</author>
	<datestamp>1269886260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yes.  Also, get involved in the community of whatever open source project interests you. Act responsible, intelligent, and helpful.  Pickup tasks from the TODO list. Make people in the community say "wow, that dude's a real asset."  Of course, make sure the stuff you do is correct and accepted by the community. Maybe you'll get commit access eventually once you can be trusted to consistantly do things the way they want.   Eventually, someone in the community will realize you're the perfect candidate for a job at their company... You'll find job postings on the community internal mailing list... etc<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...

I know it seems like a round-about way to go about things.  I've been involved in open-source for about 20 years now.  I've never had to rely on my resume to get me a job.  I've never had to cold-call a place to look for work. I'm a kernel hacker working on some pretty cool embedded stuff now for more money than I'd ever dreamed I'd make and I'm counting down the years to my retirement.. Open source has been very very good to me.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes .
Also , get involved in the community of whatever open source project interests you .
Act responsible , intelligent , and helpful .
Pickup tasks from the TODO list .
Make people in the community say " wow , that dude 's a real asset .
" Of course , make sure the stuff you do is correct and accepted by the community .
Maybe you 'll get commit access eventually once you can be trusted to consistantly do things the way they want .
Eventually , someone in the community will realize you 're the perfect candidate for a job at their company... You 'll find job postings on the community internal mailing list... etc .. . I know it seems like a round-about way to go about things .
I 've been involved in open-source for about 20 years now .
I 've never had to rely on my resume to get me a job .
I 've never had to cold-call a place to look for work .
I 'm a kernel hacker working on some pretty cool embedded stuff now for more money than I 'd ever dreamed I 'd make and I 'm counting down the years to my retirement.. Open source has been very very good to me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes.
Also, get involved in the community of whatever open source project interests you.
Act responsible, intelligent, and helpful.
Pickup tasks from the TODO list.
Make people in the community say "wow, that dude's a real asset.
"  Of course, make sure the stuff you do is correct and accepted by the community.
Maybe you'll get commit access eventually once you can be trusted to consistantly do things the way they want.
Eventually, someone in the community will realize you're the perfect candidate for a job at their company... You'll find job postings on the community internal mailing list... etc ...

I know it seems like a round-about way to go about things.
I've been involved in open-source for about 20 years now.
I've never had to rely on my resume to get me a job.
I've never had to cold-call a place to look for work.
I'm a kernel hacker working on some pretty cool embedded stuff now for more money than I'd ever dreamed I'd make and I'm counting down the years to my retirement.. Open source has been very very good to me.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650214</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652992</id>
	<title>My simple interview question.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269794520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I ask how you would solve <a href="http://www.jumble.com/" title="jumble.com" rel="nofollow">Jumble puzzles</a> [jumble.com] from the newspaper, given a vocabulary text file. Exhaustive search is not the answer, but given that the glut of CPU power and storage has fostered brute-force approaches to everything, this is surprisingly a quite common proposal.<p>The solution is quite obviously a hash lookup, but you would be surprised how few "programmers" come up with that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I ask how you would solve Jumble puzzles [ jumble.com ] from the newspaper , given a vocabulary text file .
Exhaustive search is not the answer , but given that the glut of CPU power and storage has fostered brute-force approaches to everything , this is surprisingly a quite common proposal.The solution is quite obviously a hash lookup , but you would be surprised how few " programmers " come up with that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I ask how you would solve Jumble puzzles [jumble.com] from the newspaper, given a vocabulary text file.
Exhaustive search is not the answer, but given that the glut of CPU power and storage has fostered brute-force approaches to everything, this is surprisingly a quite common proposal.The solution is quite obviously a hash lookup, but you would be surprised how few "programmers" come up with that.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650960</id>
	<title>Re:Apply</title>
	<author>Ephemeriis</author>
	<datestamp>1269775020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>And stop expecting a big salary shiny salary to do what is essentially the work of a computer janitor.</p><p>As soon as you lower your expectations to reality you'll find 'entry level' jobs are almost as common as now-hiring signs at McDonalds.</p></div><p>Maybe I missed something somewhere...  But I don't see where the OP said anything about a "big shiny salary."</p><p>And it sounds to me like he has been applying.  Or, at least he claims he has.</p><p>Either you've got some additional information, or my reading comprehension has gone downhill since this morning.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>And stop expecting a big salary shiny salary to do what is essentially the work of a computer janitor.As soon as you lower your expectations to reality you 'll find 'entry level ' jobs are almost as common as now-hiring signs at McDonalds.Maybe I missed something somewhere... But I do n't see where the OP said anything about a " big shiny salary .
" And it sounds to me like he has been applying .
Or , at least he claims he has.Either you 've got some additional information , or my reading comprehension has gone downhill since this morning .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And stop expecting a big salary shiny salary to do what is essentially the work of a computer janitor.As soon as you lower your expectations to reality you'll find 'entry level' jobs are almost as common as now-hiring signs at McDonalds.Maybe I missed something somewhere...  But I don't see where the OP said anything about a "big shiny salary.
"And it sounds to me like he has been applying.
Or, at least he claims he has.Either you've got some additional information, or my reading comprehension has gone downhill since this morning.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650210</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31654434</id>
	<title>Re:Who ya know</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269855120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You dont have a job, do you?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You dont have a job , do you ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You dont have a job, do you?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650378</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31660768</id>
	<title>Re:Proof that our economy is fundamentally broken</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269893220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>As a 20-something I find your ideas intriguing.  Do you by chance have a newsletter?</htmltext>
<tokenext>As a 20-something I find your ideas intriguing .
Do you by chance have a newsletter ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a 20-something I find your ideas intriguing.
Do you by chance have a newsletter?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651322</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31653622</id>
	<title>Re:To that I'll add</title>
	<author>Splab</author>
	<datestamp>1269801060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I never did get my masters, my graduate grades where poor (did half of a masters and got excellent grades there though). I have never had problems landing jobs, 28 years old and earning over $100k.</p><p>Having a diploma shows you know how to read, it shows you know how to learn - these are important aspects of a company. Having experience working is also great, but fact is, every time you switch job you are in for a period of relearning - everything they do will be different from whatever you have done earlier.</p><p>First problem anyone needs to get past is being sorted out before interviews, writing resumes is a science, but it isn't that hard, there are excellent resources on how to do this, but in my experience, have a generic CV you attach to a personalized e-mail. In the e-mail write why you think you are good for them, but also very important, why you should work for them in terms of what you expect. Keep the CV short and to the point, I've been through hiring people and christ some people attach a lot of meaningless shit.</p><p>When you have landed the interview, be prepared! There are a lot of standard questions you will be asked:<br><a href="http://datsi.fi.upm.es/~frosal/docs/25mdq.html" title="fi.upm.es">http://datsi.fi.upm.es/~frosal/docs/25mdq.html</a> [fi.upm.es]<br>those 25 suggestions have served me well through my short career. Never lie during the interview, if you have shortcommings, mention them, tell them how you are aware of them and work on them. Show them you are aware of how business works.</p><p>Oh, and make sure you look clean. I know a lot of nerds thinks suits are evil, you don't necessarily have to wear a suit, check up on the dresscode at the company - but looking clean is important, if in doubt a nice shirt worn casually with jeans should be nice and neutral.</p><p>Also, Office Space while being exaggerated, does have a few points. Hiding in a cubicle will get you fired, showing you have balls and a meaning will often get you promoted - provided you use them at the right time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I never did get my masters , my graduate grades where poor ( did half of a masters and got excellent grades there though ) .
I have never had problems landing jobs , 28 years old and earning over $ 100k.Having a diploma shows you know how to read , it shows you know how to learn - these are important aspects of a company .
Having experience working is also great , but fact is , every time you switch job you are in for a period of relearning - everything they do will be different from whatever you have done earlier.First problem anyone needs to get past is being sorted out before interviews , writing resumes is a science , but it is n't that hard , there are excellent resources on how to do this , but in my experience , have a generic CV you attach to a personalized e-mail .
In the e-mail write why you think you are good for them , but also very important , why you should work for them in terms of what you expect .
Keep the CV short and to the point , I 've been through hiring people and christ some people attach a lot of meaningless shit.When you have landed the interview , be prepared !
There are a lot of standard questions you will be asked : http : //datsi.fi.upm.es/ ~ frosal/docs/25mdq.html [ fi.upm.es ] those 25 suggestions have served me well through my short career .
Never lie during the interview , if you have shortcommings , mention them , tell them how you are aware of them and work on them .
Show them you are aware of how business works.Oh , and make sure you look clean .
I know a lot of nerds thinks suits are evil , you do n't necessarily have to wear a suit , check up on the dresscode at the company - but looking clean is important , if in doubt a nice shirt worn casually with jeans should be nice and neutral.Also , Office Space while being exaggerated , does have a few points .
Hiding in a cubicle will get you fired , showing you have balls and a meaning will often get you promoted - provided you use them at the right time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I never did get my masters, my graduate grades where poor (did half of a masters and got excellent grades there though).
I have never had problems landing jobs, 28 years old and earning over $100k.Having a diploma shows you know how to read, it shows you know how to learn - these are important aspects of a company.
Having experience working is also great, but fact is, every time you switch job you are in for a period of relearning - everything they do will be different from whatever you have done earlier.First problem anyone needs to get past is being sorted out before interviews, writing resumes is a science, but it isn't that hard, there are excellent resources on how to do this, but in my experience, have a generic CV you attach to a personalized e-mail.
In the e-mail write why you think you are good for them, but also very important, why you should work for them in terms of what you expect.
Keep the CV short and to the point, I've been through hiring people and christ some people attach a lot of meaningless shit.When you have landed the interview, be prepared!
There are a lot of standard questions you will be asked:http://datsi.fi.upm.es/~frosal/docs/25mdq.html [fi.upm.es]those 25 suggestions have served me well through my short career.
Never lie during the interview, if you have shortcommings, mention them, tell them how you are aware of them and work on them.
Show them you are aware of how business works.Oh, and make sure you look clean.
I know a lot of nerds thinks suits are evil, you don't necessarily have to wear a suit, check up on the dresscode at the company - but looking clean is important, if in doubt a nice shirt worn casually with jeans should be nice and neutral.Also, Office Space while being exaggerated, does have a few points.
Hiding in a cubicle will get you fired, showing you have balls and a meaning will often get you promoted - provided you use them at the right time.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652102</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652878</id>
	<title>Re:It is not a great time</title>
	<author>Unoti</author>
	<datestamp>1269793380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>As someone who has a few years experience after graduating college, getting laid off due to budget cuts, and recently finding a new job, I can say that the hiring managers like you are horribly taking advantage of the bad economy.</p></div></blockquote><p>Not so much. For every hiring manager like him who doesn't believe in discriminating against people that are overqualified, there are a bunch of <b>do</b> discriminate against people who are overqualified.</p><p>In 2001 after the dotcom crash, I was overqualified for most things that were available, desperate for any job.  I started dumbing down my resume, posing as a more entry level position.  People just didn't want to take a high power person and accept them into a low paying job.</p><p>My advice is to have something very specific that is compatible with the needs of who you're applying for.  For example, I wanted to break into the telephony business.  So I went and did a bunch of stuff with Asterisk (using softphones, because I couldn't afford to buy real hardware).  I built some things that itnerested me, specifically phone sex dating sites.  I was able to demonstrate that to the company I was applying to, and landed a really fun job.  This was a few years ago, when people still used phones.</p><p>Figure out what interests you, and start building something you can demonstrate and talk about during your interviews, something that applies specifically to the class of job that interests you.  And in the mean time, figure out how to live ultra cheap: no car, learn to cook beans and rice and make  awesome burritos for $0.70USD per serving and so on.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>As someone who has a few years experience after graduating college , getting laid off due to budget cuts , and recently finding a new job , I can say that the hiring managers like you are horribly taking advantage of the bad economy.Not so much .
For every hiring manager like him who does n't believe in discriminating against people that are overqualified , there are a bunch of do discriminate against people who are overqualified.In 2001 after the dotcom crash , I was overqualified for most things that were available , desperate for any job .
I started dumbing down my resume , posing as a more entry level position .
People just did n't want to take a high power person and accept them into a low paying job.My advice is to have something very specific that is compatible with the needs of who you 're applying for .
For example , I wanted to break into the telephony business .
So I went and did a bunch of stuff with Asterisk ( using softphones , because I could n't afford to buy real hardware ) .
I built some things that itnerested me , specifically phone sex dating sites .
I was able to demonstrate that to the company I was applying to , and landed a really fun job .
This was a few years ago , when people still used phones.Figure out what interests you , and start building something you can demonstrate and talk about during your interviews , something that applies specifically to the class of job that interests you .
And in the mean time , figure out how to live ultra cheap : no car , learn to cook beans and rice and make awesome burritos for $ 0.70USD per serving and so on .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As someone who has a few years experience after graduating college, getting laid off due to budget cuts, and recently finding a new job, I can say that the hiring managers like you are horribly taking advantage of the bad economy.Not so much.
For every hiring manager like him who doesn't believe in discriminating against people that are overqualified, there are a bunch of do discriminate against people who are overqualified.In 2001 after the dotcom crash, I was overqualified for most things that were available, desperate for any job.
I started dumbing down my resume, posing as a more entry level position.
People just didn't want to take a high power person and accept them into a low paying job.My advice is to have something very specific that is compatible with the needs of who you're applying for.
For example, I wanted to break into the telephony business.
So I went and did a bunch of stuff with Asterisk (using softphones, because I couldn't afford to buy real hardware).
I built some things that itnerested me, specifically phone sex dating sites.
I was able to demonstrate that to the company I was applying to, and landed a really fun job.
This was a few years ago, when people still used phones.Figure out what interests you, and start building something you can demonstrate and talk about during your interviews, something that applies specifically to the class of job that interests you.
And in the mean time, figure out how to live ultra cheap: no car, learn to cook beans and rice and make  awesome burritos for $0.70USD per serving and so on.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651830</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651638</id>
	<title>Make a virtual portfolio</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269780360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would suggest because you are not seeing people face to face, send out cd's that contain your portfolio, including resume, cover letter, work samples and demo's and any certificates, awards you have. At least having something you created on the cd, you have something to show the company that proves you have skills in the area they are looking for</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would suggest because you are not seeing people face to face , send out cd 's that contain your portfolio , including resume , cover letter , work samples and demo 's and any certificates , awards you have .
At least having something you created on the cd , you have something to show the company that proves you have skills in the area they are looking for</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would suggest because you are not seeing people face to face, send out cd's that contain your portfolio, including resume, cover letter, work samples and demo's and any certificates, awards you have.
At least having something you created on the cd, you have something to show the company that proves you have skills in the area they are looking for</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652808</id>
	<title>Re:Friends and family</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269792300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> why the hell are you guys modding this funny?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>why the hell are you guys modding this funny ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext> why the hell are you guys modding this funny?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650368</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31656898</id>
	<title>Stating the obvious</title>
	<author>pak9rabid</author>
	<datestamp>1269876600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I realize I'm stating the obvious, but I cannot stress enough how much more valuable real-world work experience is than just shiny paperwork (degree, certs, etc).  I'd imagine this is why you're not hearing back from folks most of the time you submit a resume for a dev job or complete the initial interview.  Getting experience isn't hard.  Start your own passion project.  Sure you won't be paid for it (unless you manage to come up with something groundbreaking that's in high demand), but the experience and project management skills you pick up along the way are invaluable.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I realize I 'm stating the obvious , but I can not stress enough how much more valuable real-world work experience is than just shiny paperwork ( degree , certs , etc ) .
I 'd imagine this is why you 're not hearing back from folks most of the time you submit a resume for a dev job or complete the initial interview .
Getting experience is n't hard .
Start your own passion project .
Sure you wo n't be paid for it ( unless you manage to come up with something groundbreaking that 's in high demand ) , but the experience and project management skills you pick up along the way are invaluable .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I realize I'm stating the obvious, but I cannot stress enough how much more valuable real-world work experience is than just shiny paperwork (degree, certs, etc).
I'd imagine this is why you're not hearing back from folks most of the time you submit a resume for a dev job or complete the initial interview.
Getting experience isn't hard.
Start your own passion project.
Sure you won't be paid for it (unless you manage to come up with something groundbreaking that's in high demand), but the experience and project management skills you pick up along the way are invaluable.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651680</id>
	<title>None</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269780720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>At least you can program.. I have 2 programmers working beside me that have no idea what they are doing. No idea how they landed that job or how they are still here.</htmltext>
<tokenext>At least you can program.. I have 2 programmers working beside me that have no idea what they are doing .
No idea how they landed that job or how they are still here .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At least you can program.. I have 2 programmers working beside me that have no idea what they are doing.
No idea how they landed that job or how they are still here.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651292</id>
	<title>Re:To that I'll add</title>
	<author>Brooklynoid</author>
	<datestamp>1269777660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Excellent points.  Nowadays, I run a development team in a consulting organization (and still code a fair amount myself), but a number of years ago, I was a career-changer seeing an entry-level programming position.  In college, I'd majored in psychology and taken a few programming classes.  When I wanted to get into IT as a profession, I enrolled in a one-year certificate program that taught me to be a COBOL (yes, it was THAT long ago) programmer.  I learned 370 Assembler, COBOL, MVS JCL and other skills that were designed to get me a job.  In the recession of 1992, I had an entry-level job within two months of finishing the program.  This isn't to say that a BS in CS wouldn't have gotten me a comparable job, but the HR person that gave me that initial interview said that she specifically looks for people with some employment experience (I had about four years of real-world experience before deciding to make the change) and high grades from a program such as the one I attended.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Excellent points .
Nowadays , I run a development team in a consulting organization ( and still code a fair amount myself ) , but a number of years ago , I was a career-changer seeing an entry-level programming position .
In college , I 'd majored in psychology and taken a few programming classes .
When I wanted to get into IT as a profession , I enrolled in a one-year certificate program that taught me to be a COBOL ( yes , it was THAT long ago ) programmer .
I learned 370 Assembler , COBOL , MVS JCL and other skills that were designed to get me a job .
In the recession of 1992 , I had an entry-level job within two months of finishing the program .
This is n't to say that a BS in CS would n't have gotten me a comparable job , but the HR person that gave me that initial interview said that she specifically looks for people with some employment experience ( I had about four years of real-world experience before deciding to make the change ) and high grades from a program such as the one I attended .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Excellent points.
Nowadays, I run a development team in a consulting organization (and still code a fair amount myself), but a number of years ago, I was a career-changer seeing an entry-level programming position.
In college, I'd majored in psychology and taken a few programming classes.
When I wanted to get into IT as a profession, I enrolled in a one-year certificate program that taught me to be a COBOL (yes, it was THAT long ago) programmer.
I learned 370 Assembler, COBOL, MVS JCL and other skills that were designed to get me a job.
In the recession of 1992, I had an entry-level job within two months of finishing the program.
This isn't to say that a BS in CS wouldn't have gotten me a comparable job, but the HR person that gave me that initial interview said that she specifically looks for people with some employment experience (I had about four years of real-world experience before deciding to make the change) and high grades from a program such as the one I attended.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650704</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31654558</id>
	<title>Re:Apply</title>
	<author>slim</author>
	<datestamp>1269856680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Self reply but I have to<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</p><blockquote><div><p>I can program!</p></div></blockquote><p>No, you can throw code at a computer and get it to produce something you want.  Thats not impressive. </p></div><p>In fairness to the OP, he was responding to a meme that appears in Jeff Atwood's blog and elsewhere, that job candidates show up who can't even write a Fizzbuzz program when asked to.</p><p>Employers who take on new graduates for low salaries shouldn't expect to get someone who can produce well architected, production grade code with minimal supervision. Hell, I've been doing it 10 years, and I still have plenty of room for improvement. They should expect to mould their new employee and help them grow. But they have a right to expect someone who can write Fizzbuzz.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Self reply but I have to ...I can program ! No , you can throw code at a computer and get it to produce something you want .
Thats not impressive .
In fairness to the OP , he was responding to a meme that appears in Jeff Atwood 's blog and elsewhere , that job candidates show up who ca n't even write a Fizzbuzz program when asked to.Employers who take on new graduates for low salaries should n't expect to get someone who can produce well architected , production grade code with minimal supervision .
Hell , I 've been doing it 10 years , and I still have plenty of room for improvement .
They should expect to mould their new employee and help them grow .
But they have a right to expect someone who can write Fizzbuzz .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Self reply but I have to ...I can program!No, you can throw code at a computer and get it to produce something you want.
Thats not impressive.
In fairness to the OP, he was responding to a meme that appears in Jeff Atwood's blog and elsewhere, that job candidates show up who can't even write a Fizzbuzz program when asked to.Employers who take on new graduates for low salaries shouldn't expect to get someone who can produce well architected, production grade code with minimal supervision.
Hell, I've been doing it 10 years, and I still have plenty of room for improvement.
They should expect to mould their new employee and help them grow.
But they have a right to expect someone who can write Fizzbuzz.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650362</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31653168</id>
	<title>Get a pile of pointless cetifications</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269796020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Because the person hiring you doesn't know shit from shit.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Because the person hiring you does n't know shit from shit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Because the person hiring you doesn't know shit from shit.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31655414</id>
	<title>You have global competition</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269868080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm an employer, I'd hire you in a heartbeat if:</p><p>1) You not only can program, but you're smart enough to be able to program in any language. Good programmers can program well in any language, given time, and our environment is pretty flexible.</p><p>2) You are capable of developing software, not just writing code. For example, I don't care if you can write a bunch of sorting algorithms in your sleep - understanding the needs of commercial development is VERY important.</p><p>3) You are willing to work for a globally competitive salary.</p><p>I'm sure (3) will get a lot of people upset here, but the world is a pretty small place with the technology we have access to. If I can hire an experienced developer in Poland to work for $35k a year, it's hard to justify hiring an inexperienced developer in the US for $50k a year. Clearly there's more difficulty in managing someone overseas, but you're crazy if you don't think that a foreign programmer isn't worth the bother. I run a business, not a charity.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm an employer , I 'd hire you in a heartbeat if : 1 ) You not only can program , but you 're smart enough to be able to program in any language .
Good programmers can program well in any language , given time , and our environment is pretty flexible.2 ) You are capable of developing software , not just writing code .
For example , I do n't care if you can write a bunch of sorting algorithms in your sleep - understanding the needs of commercial development is VERY important.3 ) You are willing to work for a globally competitive salary.I 'm sure ( 3 ) will get a lot of people upset here , but the world is a pretty small place with the technology we have access to .
If I can hire an experienced developer in Poland to work for $ 35k a year , it 's hard to justify hiring an inexperienced developer in the US for $ 50k a year .
Clearly there 's more difficulty in managing someone overseas , but you 're crazy if you do n't think that a foreign programmer is n't worth the bother .
I run a business , not a charity .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm an employer, I'd hire you in a heartbeat if:1) You not only can program, but you're smart enough to be able to program in any language.
Good programmers can program well in any language, given time, and our environment is pretty flexible.2) You are capable of developing software, not just writing code.
For example, I don't care if you can write a bunch of sorting algorithms in your sleep - understanding the needs of commercial development is VERY important.3) You are willing to work for a globally competitive salary.I'm sure (3) will get a lot of people upset here, but the world is a pretty small place with the technology we have access to.
If I can hire an experienced developer in Poland to work for $35k a year, it's hard to justify hiring an inexperienced developer in the US for $50k a year.
Clearly there's more difficulty in managing someone overseas, but you're crazy if you don't think that a foreign programmer isn't worth the bother.
I run a business, not a charity.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31653390</id>
	<title>program</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269798600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you just got out of school you probably can't program very well, unless you did a lot of programming on your own as a hobby.  So get a computer if you don't already have one, and program.  Write a game.  Write a schedule manager.  Hack around with network programming.  If you can afford it, buy a micro-controller board and parts and build a robot.  Program in C and C++, not just scripting languages or dumbed down garbage-collected languages that are designed to make dumb people barely productive.  If you can write a couple thousand lines of C that works, you can write anything in Python or Java, but the converse is \_not\_ true.  If you actually can program, and you apply for jobs where there are technical interviews, sooner or later you'll get a job.</p><p>The only way you learn to program well is to program a lot, and not hate it.  If you hate it, find something else to do, please, for your sake and ours.</p><p>Unfortunately, schools are too busy teaching theory and breadth to make sure their grads can actually program on their own.  And they're dumbing down the curricula by teaching programming using scripting languages and frameworks, so you don't learn to actually solve problems yourself.  Computer Science is now just another liberal arts degree.  Your ability to construct functional nontrivial programs is almost completely uncorrelated with your possession of a CS degree.  I had a Yale MSCS  working for me once who could not write a 20 line C program with a gun to her head - I kid you not (okay, I didn't actually try the gun, stupid HR policies...).  Poor girl was an H1B and when they did the big layoff she had 10 days to find a job or leave the country.  I have no idea WTF they taught her in the Master's program at Yale.  Maybe there were a lot of classes with group projects, and she was always the one whose crummy work got redone and discarded by the one person who got the project working so s/he wouldn't flunk the class (man am I glad I got school over with).  Group projects save the prof work on grading, but completely nullify the filtering and signaling functions which school is supposed to fulfill, along with teaching (filtering - weed out people who just can't do the work at all, and signaling - tell the student s/he needs to work harder or switch majors).</p><p>In short, figure out if you actually like programming, and if so, do a lot of it, in difficult languages (C, assembly).  If you master the hard stuff, employment will mostly take care of itself.  In the meantime, get a job in IT or something and do as much programming/scripting as you can on your own initiative to get noticed (but maybe wait until you have more programming experience so you don't get labelled badly).  It's a suck job market out there right now.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you just got out of school you probably ca n't program very well , unless you did a lot of programming on your own as a hobby .
So get a computer if you do n't already have one , and program .
Write a game .
Write a schedule manager .
Hack around with network programming .
If you can afford it , buy a micro-controller board and parts and build a robot .
Program in C and C + + , not just scripting languages or dumbed down garbage-collected languages that are designed to make dumb people barely productive .
If you can write a couple thousand lines of C that works , you can write anything in Python or Java , but the converse is \ _not \ _ true .
If you actually can program , and you apply for jobs where there are technical interviews , sooner or later you 'll get a job.The only way you learn to program well is to program a lot , and not hate it .
If you hate it , find something else to do , please , for your sake and ours.Unfortunately , schools are too busy teaching theory and breadth to make sure their grads can actually program on their own .
And they 're dumbing down the curricula by teaching programming using scripting languages and frameworks , so you do n't learn to actually solve problems yourself .
Computer Science is now just another liberal arts degree .
Your ability to construct functional nontrivial programs is almost completely uncorrelated with your possession of a CS degree .
I had a Yale MSCS working for me once who could not write a 20 line C program with a gun to her head - I kid you not ( okay , I did n't actually try the gun , stupid HR policies... ) .
Poor girl was an H1B and when they did the big layoff she had 10 days to find a job or leave the country .
I have no idea WTF they taught her in the Master 's program at Yale .
Maybe there were a lot of classes with group projects , and she was always the one whose crummy work got redone and discarded by the one person who got the project working so s/he would n't flunk the class ( man am I glad I got school over with ) .
Group projects save the prof work on grading , but completely nullify the filtering and signaling functions which school is supposed to fulfill , along with teaching ( filtering - weed out people who just ca n't do the work at all , and signaling - tell the student s/he needs to work harder or switch majors ) .In short , figure out if you actually like programming , and if so , do a lot of it , in difficult languages ( C , assembly ) .
If you master the hard stuff , employment will mostly take care of itself .
In the meantime , get a job in IT or something and do as much programming/scripting as you can on your own initiative to get noticed ( but maybe wait until you have more programming experience so you do n't get labelled badly ) .
It 's a suck job market out there right now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you just got out of school you probably can't program very well, unless you did a lot of programming on your own as a hobby.
So get a computer if you don't already have one, and program.
Write a game.
Write a schedule manager.
Hack around with network programming.
If you can afford it, buy a micro-controller board and parts and build a robot.
Program in C and C++, not just scripting languages or dumbed down garbage-collected languages that are designed to make dumb people barely productive.
If you can write a couple thousand lines of C that works, you can write anything in Python or Java, but the converse is \_not\_ true.
If you actually can program, and you apply for jobs where there are technical interviews, sooner or later you'll get a job.The only way you learn to program well is to program a lot, and not hate it.
If you hate it, find something else to do, please, for your sake and ours.Unfortunately, schools are too busy teaching theory and breadth to make sure their grads can actually program on their own.
And they're dumbing down the curricula by teaching programming using scripting languages and frameworks, so you don't learn to actually solve problems yourself.
Computer Science is now just another liberal arts degree.
Your ability to construct functional nontrivial programs is almost completely uncorrelated with your possession of a CS degree.
I had a Yale MSCS  working for me once who could not write a 20 line C program with a gun to her head - I kid you not (okay, I didn't actually try the gun, stupid HR policies...).
Poor girl was an H1B and when they did the big layoff she had 10 days to find a job or leave the country.
I have no idea WTF they taught her in the Master's program at Yale.
Maybe there were a lot of classes with group projects, and she was always the one whose crummy work got redone and discarded by the one person who got the project working so s/he wouldn't flunk the class (man am I glad I got school over with).
Group projects save the prof work on grading, but completely nullify the filtering and signaling functions which school is supposed to fulfill, along with teaching (filtering - weed out people who just can't do the work at all, and signaling - tell the student s/he needs to work harder or switch majors).In short, figure out if you actually like programming, and if so, do a lot of it, in difficult languages (C, assembly).
If you master the hard stuff, employment will mostly take care of itself.
In the meantime, get a job in IT or something and do as much programming/scripting as you can on your own initiative to get noticed (but maybe wait until you have more programming experience so you don't get labelled badly).
It's a suck job market out there right now.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31653088</id>
	<title>Thanks for the advice!</title>
	<author>chemicaldave</author>
	<datestamp>1269795420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>A lot of good advice from what I can see! I have interviewed with my old internship's company for a business analyst position. It's hardly involves any coding of substance, but from what I can see from the comments relating to the job market, I may have no choice. Big thanks to the person who pointed out the April 26 eligibility date for Google's Summer of Code and the Open Source suggestions in general. Lastly, thanks to the rest of slashdot for giving me your time and advice. It's obvious that I won't be able to land my ideal job right away, so I'll just get my name out there and earn experience.

P.S. The html link comment <i>was</i> a joke so don't get too riled up.</htmltext>
<tokenext>A lot of good advice from what I can see !
I have interviewed with my old internship 's company for a business analyst position .
It 's hardly involves any coding of substance , but from what I can see from the comments relating to the job market , I may have no choice .
Big thanks to the person who pointed out the April 26 eligibility date for Google 's Summer of Code and the Open Source suggestions in general .
Lastly , thanks to the rest of slashdot for giving me your time and advice .
It 's obvious that I wo n't be able to land my ideal job right away , so I 'll just get my name out there and earn experience .
P.S. The html link comment was a joke so do n't get too riled up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A lot of good advice from what I can see!
I have interviewed with my old internship's company for a business analyst position.
It's hardly involves any coding of substance, but from what I can see from the comments relating to the job market, I may have no choice.
Big thanks to the person who pointed out the April 26 eligibility date for Google's Summer of Code and the Open Source suggestions in general.
Lastly, thanks to the rest of slashdot for giving me your time and advice.
It's obvious that I won't be able to land my ideal job right away, so I'll just get my name out there and earn experience.
P.S. The html link comment was a joke so don't get too riled up.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31656768</id>
	<title>IT is all being offshored</title>
	<author>walterbyrd</author>
	<datestamp>1269875880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just use common sense. There is no way to compete with third world wages.</p><p>The few jobs that can not being offshored yet, are being filed with foreign guest workers, which will make the jobs easier to offshore in the near future.</p><p>Computing in the cloud will make it even easier to offshore US IT jobs.</p><p>Unless you can get top secret clearance, it would be best to forget about IT.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just use common sense .
There is no way to compete with third world wages.The few jobs that can not being offshored yet , are being filed with foreign guest workers , which will make the jobs easier to offshore in the near future.Computing in the cloud will make it even easier to offshore US IT jobs.Unless you can get top secret clearance , it would be best to forget about IT .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just use common sense.
There is no way to compete with third world wages.The few jobs that can not being offshored yet, are being filed with foreign guest workers, which will make the jobs easier to offshore in the near future.Computing in the cloud will make it even easier to offshore US IT jobs.Unless you can get top secret clearance, it would be best to forget about IT.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31653812</id>
	<title>The comments were fun.</title>
	<author>tuxedobob</author>
	<datestamp>1269803280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The comments in that article were fun, especially the bit about 123456789 and adding nothing, +, or * operands between numbers to equal 2001. Good thing I thought you could subtract, or I would've gone nuts wondering why mine didn't work before seeing he really meant 2002.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The comments in that article were fun , especially the bit about 123456789 and adding nothing , + , or * operands between numbers to equal 2001 .
Good thing I thought you could subtract , or I would 've gone nuts wondering why mine did n't work before seeing he really meant 2002 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The comments in that article were fun, especially the bit about 123456789 and adding nothing, +, or * operands between numbers to equal 2001.
Good thing I thought you could subtract, or I would've gone nuts wondering why mine didn't work before seeing he really meant 2002.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651872</id>
	<title>Intern and pray</title>
	<author>frankgod</author>
	<datestamp>1269782760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You really need experience. Get an internship somewhere and hope they'll pay. You don't say what level degree you got, but my wife went for one year with no interviews after getting an MS in engineering. It's really tough and you will have to settle for what you can get. Good luck.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You really need experience .
Get an internship somewhere and hope they 'll pay .
You do n't say what level degree you got , but my wife went for one year with no interviews after getting an MS in engineering .
It 's really tough and you will have to settle for what you can get .
Good luck .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You really need experience.
Get an internship somewhere and hope they'll pay.
You don't say what level degree you got, but my wife went for one year with no interviews after getting an MS in engineering.
It's really tough and you will have to settle for what you can get.
Good luck.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31656438</id>
	<title>From a hiring manager</title>
	<author>mitchner</author>
	<datestamp>1269874440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm currently trying to hire an entry-level developer.  There a lot of little things that separate school work from on the job work.  Pick your favorite language and do a bunch of detailed research on the challenges corporate developers face.  Speaking from a Java perspective, how are big projects built (Maven, Ant, Cruise Control, etc.), how are dependencies handled using those tools?  How is automated testing handled (JUnit, Selenium, etc.) ?  What other libraries are typically used?  (Spring, Hibernate, Struts, etc. etc)   You don't need to be an expert in all this stuff, but learn the basics and be able to describe what you've done with these tools, what you liked about them, disliked about them, pros and cons etc.
<br>
<br>
I think even a couple weeks of researching and using these tools would put you well above your peers the next time you go to an interview.  In the interview, ask good questions: "How do you handle automated testing?"  "Oh, you're using Hibernate, do you use it's query language?"  Questions like this can demonstrate you understand (at least to some degree) the tools they are using.
<br>
<br>
Good luck.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm currently trying to hire an entry-level developer .
There a lot of little things that separate school work from on the job work .
Pick your favorite language and do a bunch of detailed research on the challenges corporate developers face .
Speaking from a Java perspective , how are big projects built ( Maven , Ant , Cruise Control , etc .
) , how are dependencies handled using those tools ?
How is automated testing handled ( JUnit , Selenium , etc .
) ?
What other libraries are typically used ?
( Spring , Hibernate , Struts , etc .
etc ) You do n't need to be an expert in all this stuff , but learn the basics and be able to describe what you 've done with these tools , what you liked about them , disliked about them , pros and cons etc .
I think even a couple weeks of researching and using these tools would put you well above your peers the next time you go to an interview .
In the interview , ask good questions : " How do you handle automated testing ?
" " Oh , you 're using Hibernate , do you use it 's query language ?
" Questions like this can demonstrate you understand ( at least to some degree ) the tools they are using .
Good luck .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm currently trying to hire an entry-level developer.
There a lot of little things that separate school work from on the job work.
Pick your favorite language and do a bunch of detailed research on the challenges corporate developers face.
Speaking from a Java perspective, how are big projects built (Maven, Ant, Cruise Control, etc.
), how are dependencies handled using those tools?
How is automated testing handled (JUnit, Selenium, etc.
) ?
What other libraries are typically used?
(Spring, Hibernate, Struts, etc.
etc)   You don't need to be an expert in all this stuff, but learn the basics and be able to describe what you've done with these tools, what you liked about them, disliked about them, pros and cons etc.
I think even a couple weeks of researching and using these tools would put you well above your peers the next time you go to an interview.
In the interview, ask good questions: "How do you handle automated testing?
"  "Oh, you're using Hibernate, do you use it's query language?
"  Questions like this can demonstrate you understand (at least to some degree) the tools they are using.
Good luck.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31653864</id>
	<title>Present what you have, clearly and professionally</title>
	<author>Full Meat</author>
	<datestamp>1269803820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><ul>
<li> <b>Be willing</b>. One advantage that you have over older, experienced competition is that you're young, healthy, idealistic, unmarried, and have no children. Your ability and willingness to put in long hours can offset some of your lack of experience. Convey your enthusiasm with your during phone screens and live interviews.</li><li> <b>Advertise any personal projects or interests</b>. I always take note of an entry-level candidate that has put effort into a project that they take pride in, whether it's a personal project, a school project, or blog postings. It doesn't necessarily have to be technical. It's a great differentiator and a glimpse beyond the resume into what motivates you.</li><li> <b>Send a reasonably professional email</b>. Send your job-seeking email to yourself and examine it in your inbox. Preferably, your name appears in the format "John Doe", not "deeznutz23235@aol.com", "john", JohnnyBoy", or "JOHN DOE" . The subject line, if not predetermined by the reply mechanism, should be the title of the position for which you're applying. It should <i>not</i> be "Hi" or "Interested".</li><li> <b>Include testimonials</b>. If you have a good GPA (&gt;3.5) or recommendations from professors or your landscaping boss, include them.</li><li> <b>Avoid rambling answers</b>. Part of what you're being evaluated on is the ability to articulate concepts clearly.</li><li> <b>Bullshitting is lethal</b>. Once you start bullshitting, you're wandering a minefield with a blindfold on and every step can blow apart your credibility. Stick to the map. If you say "I have hands-on experience with X" and when I start probing about X, that turns into "I have some passing exposure to X" you will have committed lethal bullshitting. </li><li> <b>Be prepared for the unprepared interviewer</b>. Have a two-minute summary of yourself prepared. Have a handful of genuine questions ready, i.e. not the vague, generic questions like "What do you like best about working here?" but things that you're genuinely curious about, like maybe "What IDE does everyone use here? What database technology in production?"</li>
</ul></htmltext>
<tokenext>Be willing .
One advantage that you have over older , experienced competition is that you 're young , healthy , idealistic , unmarried , and have no children .
Your ability and willingness to put in long hours can offset some of your lack of experience .
Convey your enthusiasm with your during phone screens and live interviews .
Advertise any personal projects or interests .
I always take note of an entry-level candidate that has put effort into a project that they take pride in , whether it 's a personal project , a school project , or blog postings .
It does n't necessarily have to be technical .
It 's a great differentiator and a glimpse beyond the resume into what motivates you .
Send a reasonably professional email .
Send your job-seeking email to yourself and examine it in your inbox .
Preferably , your name appears in the format " John Doe " , not " deeznutz23235 @ aol.com " , " john " , JohnnyBoy " , or " JOHN DOE " .
The subject line , if not predetermined by the reply mechanism , should be the title of the position for which you 're applying .
It should not be " Hi " or " Interested " .
Include testimonials .
If you have a good GPA ( &gt; 3.5 ) or recommendations from professors or your landscaping boss , include them .
Avoid rambling answers .
Part of what you 're being evaluated on is the ability to articulate concepts clearly .
Bullshitting is lethal .
Once you start bullshitting , you 're wandering a minefield with a blindfold on and every step can blow apart your credibility .
Stick to the map .
If you say " I have hands-on experience with X " and when I start probing about X , that turns into " I have some passing exposure to X " you will have committed lethal bullshitting .
Be prepared for the unprepared interviewer .
Have a two-minute summary of yourself prepared .
Have a handful of genuine questions ready , i.e .
not the vague , generic questions like " What do you like best about working here ?
" but things that you 're genuinely curious about , like maybe " What IDE does everyone use here ?
What database technology in production ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
 Be willing.
One advantage that you have over older, experienced competition is that you're young, healthy, idealistic, unmarried, and have no children.
Your ability and willingness to put in long hours can offset some of your lack of experience.
Convey your enthusiasm with your during phone screens and live interviews.
Advertise any personal projects or interests.
I always take note of an entry-level candidate that has put effort into a project that they take pride in, whether it's a personal project, a school project, or blog postings.
It doesn't necessarily have to be technical.
It's a great differentiator and a glimpse beyond the resume into what motivates you.
Send a reasonably professional email.
Send your job-seeking email to yourself and examine it in your inbox.
Preferably, your name appears in the format "John Doe", not "deeznutz23235@aol.com", "john", JohnnyBoy", or "JOHN DOE" .
The subject line, if not predetermined by the reply mechanism, should be the title of the position for which you're applying.
It should not be "Hi" or "Interested".
Include testimonials.
If you have a good GPA (&gt;3.5) or recommendations from professors or your landscaping boss, include them.
Avoid rambling answers.
Part of what you're being evaluated on is the ability to articulate concepts clearly.
Bullshitting is lethal.
Once you start bullshitting, you're wandering a minefield with a blindfold on and every step can blow apart your credibility.
Stick to the map.
If you say "I have hands-on experience with X" and when I start probing about X, that turns into "I have some passing exposure to X" you will have committed lethal bullshitting.
Be prepared for the unprepared interviewer.
Have a two-minute summary of yourself prepared.
Have a handful of genuine questions ready, i.e.
not the vague, generic questions like "What do you like best about working here?
" but things that you're genuinely curious about, like maybe "What IDE does everyone use here?
What database technology in production?
"
</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31653188</id>
	<title>Re:Apply</title>
	<author>mcrbids</author>
	<datestamp>1269796200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Parent post is probably overly cynical, and in some ways contrary to my experience. He's right that experience helps.</p><p>1) If you know how to program, and are actually any good at it, you will have no trouble finding work.</p><p>2) As far as I can tell, there are, if anything, more opportunities now than ever! Many companies are feeling the pinch of the recession and are looking for increased dependency on Internet-based applications to cut costs, improve service, and get more sales. As a result, these companies are competing HARD for developers who can do the job for cheap. As a programmer/consultant turned company programmer/executive, I've turned away more work than I could possibly do in a year in the last 3 months alone. All were from companies and people I've worked with in the past who were struggling and trying to figure out how to "get ahead".</p><p>3) Parent poster is right about a resume. If it's good, it will get you a phone call and possibly a personal interview. But if you want the job, you'd better have "the stuff" - the ability to work on a project and get it done.</p><p>Want my advice, as Chief of Technology in a successful and rapidly growing company? Start a project or get heavily involved in one. There are lots out there! Troll SourceForge until you find a struggling project that sounds interesting, and be the lead man for a year or so. There are literally thousands and thousands of opportunities there, and they will impress if/when you present them.</p><p>And make sure it's an actual project and not a CD catalog for personal CD collections! If you do this, you will show the ability to get involved with a project, solve something significant, and the experience you'll get reading somebody else's stuff will do wonders for your skills...</p><p>I would offer you a shot at joining our company, but we're not hiring at the moment. In any event, I wish you the best of luck!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Parent post is probably overly cynical , and in some ways contrary to my experience .
He 's right that experience helps.1 ) If you know how to program , and are actually any good at it , you will have no trouble finding work.2 ) As far as I can tell , there are , if anything , more opportunities now than ever !
Many companies are feeling the pinch of the recession and are looking for increased dependency on Internet-based applications to cut costs , improve service , and get more sales .
As a result , these companies are competing HARD for developers who can do the job for cheap .
As a programmer/consultant turned company programmer/executive , I 've turned away more work than I could possibly do in a year in the last 3 months alone .
All were from companies and people I 've worked with in the past who were struggling and trying to figure out how to " get ahead " .3 ) Parent poster is right about a resume .
If it 's good , it will get you a phone call and possibly a personal interview .
But if you want the job , you 'd better have " the stuff " - the ability to work on a project and get it done.Want my advice , as Chief of Technology in a successful and rapidly growing company ?
Start a project or get heavily involved in one .
There are lots out there !
Troll SourceForge until you find a struggling project that sounds interesting , and be the lead man for a year or so .
There are literally thousands and thousands of opportunities there , and they will impress if/when you present them.And make sure it 's an actual project and not a CD catalog for personal CD collections !
If you do this , you will show the ability to get involved with a project , solve something significant , and the experience you 'll get reading somebody else 's stuff will do wonders for your skills...I would offer you a shot at joining our company , but we 're not hiring at the moment .
In any event , I wish you the best of luck !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Parent post is probably overly cynical, and in some ways contrary to my experience.
He's right that experience helps.1) If you know how to program, and are actually any good at it, you will have no trouble finding work.2) As far as I can tell, there are, if anything, more opportunities now than ever!
Many companies are feeling the pinch of the recession and are looking for increased dependency on Internet-based applications to cut costs, improve service, and get more sales.
As a result, these companies are competing HARD for developers who can do the job for cheap.
As a programmer/consultant turned company programmer/executive, I've turned away more work than I could possibly do in a year in the last 3 months alone.
All were from companies and people I've worked with in the past who were struggling and trying to figure out how to "get ahead".3) Parent poster is right about a resume.
If it's good, it will get you a phone call and possibly a personal interview.
But if you want the job, you'd better have "the stuff" - the ability to work on a project and get it done.Want my advice, as Chief of Technology in a successful and rapidly growing company?
Start a project or get heavily involved in one.
There are lots out there!
Troll SourceForge until you find a struggling project that sounds interesting, and be the lead man for a year or so.
There are literally thousands and thousands of opportunities there, and they will impress if/when you present them.And make sure it's an actual project and not a CD catalog for personal CD collections!
If you do this, you will show the ability to get involved with a project, solve something significant, and the experience you'll get reading somebody else's stuff will do wonders for your skills...I would offer you a shot at joining our company, but we're not hiring at the moment.
In any event, I wish you the best of luck!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650362</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651246</id>
	<title>I am a recruiter....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269777180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm sure that part will get me flamed but what I do for a living is get people jobs.  The most important thing you have to realize is it doesn't matter how great your skills are if people don't see your resume.  Your resume is a marketing document.  It is a tool to get you an interview.  And just like all other marketing document it needs to be seen by as many relevant people as possible.  Stop applying for jobs and start applying to companies.  Emails get auto-responded to at almost all companies.  Letters don't.  It will cost you some postage but posting your CV to companies will get a lot further than email it ever will.</p><p>That said sending  your CV around isn't the best way to go about getting a job.  The best thing you can do is sit down and make a list of every single company you can think of that you think your skills would suit and then pick up the phone.  Call every one of those companies and say "Could I speak to the person that looks after your IT department please?" - "Hello Mr IT Manager,  My name is Job Blogs, I am a recent CS graduate with a major in java development and slashdot posting and Digg reading.  I am currently seeking a role and I was wondering whether you would have a use with someone of my skills at the moment?"  If yes WOOHOO.  If no "Do you think you would use someone of my skills in the future?  And would you know anyone who is looking for someone of my background at the moment?"</p><p>This is extremely hard to do.  It takes a lot of self discipline and a strong mind to get past all the no you will receive.  But this method is 100\% the best way of landing yourself a job.</p><p>How good you are plays a part in getting a job, but FAR more important is making sure enough people know you are looking.</p><p>Good Luck.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm sure that part will get me flamed but what I do for a living is get people jobs .
The most important thing you have to realize is it does n't matter how great your skills are if people do n't see your resume .
Your resume is a marketing document .
It is a tool to get you an interview .
And just like all other marketing document it needs to be seen by as many relevant people as possible .
Stop applying for jobs and start applying to companies .
Emails get auto-responded to at almost all companies .
Letters do n't .
It will cost you some postage but posting your CV to companies will get a lot further than email it ever will.That said sending your CV around is n't the best way to go about getting a job .
The best thing you can do is sit down and make a list of every single company you can think of that you think your skills would suit and then pick up the phone .
Call every one of those companies and say " Could I speak to the person that looks after your IT department please ?
" - " Hello Mr IT Manager , My name is Job Blogs , I am a recent CS graduate with a major in java development and slashdot posting and Digg reading .
I am currently seeking a role and I was wondering whether you would have a use with someone of my skills at the moment ?
" If yes WOOHOO .
If no " Do you think you would use someone of my skills in the future ?
And would you know anyone who is looking for someone of my background at the moment ?
" This is extremely hard to do .
It takes a lot of self discipline and a strong mind to get past all the no you will receive .
But this method is 100 \ % the best way of landing yourself a job.How good you are plays a part in getting a job , but FAR more important is making sure enough people know you are looking.Good Luck .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm sure that part will get me flamed but what I do for a living is get people jobs.
The most important thing you have to realize is it doesn't matter how great your skills are if people don't see your resume.
Your resume is a marketing document.
It is a tool to get you an interview.
And just like all other marketing document it needs to be seen by as many relevant people as possible.
Stop applying for jobs and start applying to companies.
Emails get auto-responded to at almost all companies.
Letters don't.
It will cost you some postage but posting your CV to companies will get a lot further than email it ever will.That said sending  your CV around isn't the best way to go about getting a job.
The best thing you can do is sit down and make a list of every single company you can think of that you think your skills would suit and then pick up the phone.
Call every one of those companies and say "Could I speak to the person that looks after your IT department please?
" - "Hello Mr IT Manager,  My name is Job Blogs, I am a recent CS graduate with a major in java development and slashdot posting and Digg reading.
I am currently seeking a role and I was wondering whether you would have a use with someone of my skills at the moment?
"  If yes WOOHOO.
If no "Do you think you would use someone of my skills in the future?
And would you know anyone who is looking for someone of my background at the moment?
"This is extremely hard to do.
It takes a lot of self discipline and a strong mind to get past all the no you will receive.
But this method is 100\% the best way of landing yourself a job.How good you are plays a part in getting a job, but FAR more important is making sure enough people know you are looking.Good Luck.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31653256</id>
	<title>Re:It's not about what you know...</title>
	<author>aaarrrgggh</author>
	<datestamp>1269796980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Very true.  Referrals always carry more weight than a blind resume.  Talk to your friends who have found jobs, to people who graduated before you, to the Endowment people at school, etc.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Very true .
Referrals always carry more weight than a blind resume .
Talk to your friends who have found jobs , to people who graduated before you , to the Endowment people at school , etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Very true.
Referrals always carry more weight than a blind resume.
Talk to your friends who have found jobs, to people who graduated before you, to the Endowment people at school, etc.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650322</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650580</id>
	<title>Re:Confused</title>
	<author>turgid</author>
	<datestamp>1269772800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <i>First, including a link doesn't make you a programmer.</i>
</p><p>Whoooooosh!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>First , including a link does n't make you a programmer .
Whoooooosh !</tokentext>
<sentencetext> First, including a link doesn't make you a programmer.
Whoooooosh!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650420</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650510</id>
	<title>difficult environment</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269772260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've got more than 10 years "experience." It been a rough road trying to get work the last two years. Here are some close calls I had:</p><p>1. interviewer wanted me to log in remotely via ssh. Then write an app in php on the command line to determine, if a word was a palindrome. I almost got it but ran out of time. The php program worked for most cases. At the end of the interview, I jokingly asked him how many  people could not even log in? He said 50\% could not get past that point.</p><p>2. A couple of other interviews, I've had three people at a time ( mostly engineers ) grill me. They just pull whatever out of their asses. If you miss a single thing then no job.</p><p>3. I had another company give me 9 interviews for a single position. Most of the engineers were just called off of whatever they were doing unprepared. It was like a regurgitation of my work history. Then the last guy really gave a hard time pulling all sorts of shit out his ass. Got most of it right but not good enough.</p><p>I have a portfolio of programs I've written. Want to see it work? Not good enough.</p><p>Its just a difficult work environment out there. Frankly, I think they don't have the work.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've got more than 10 years " experience .
" It been a rough road trying to get work the last two years .
Here are some close calls I had : 1. interviewer wanted me to log in remotely via ssh .
Then write an app in php on the command line to determine , if a word was a palindrome .
I almost got it but ran out of time .
The php program worked for most cases .
At the end of the interview , I jokingly asked him how many people could not even log in ?
He said 50 \ % could not get past that point.2 .
A couple of other interviews , I 've had three people at a time ( mostly engineers ) grill me .
They just pull whatever out of their asses .
If you miss a single thing then no job.3 .
I had another company give me 9 interviews for a single position .
Most of the engineers were just called off of whatever they were doing unprepared .
It was like a regurgitation of my work history .
Then the last guy really gave a hard time pulling all sorts of shit out his ass .
Got most of it right but not good enough.I have a portfolio of programs I 've written .
Want to see it work ?
Not good enough.Its just a difficult work environment out there .
Frankly , I think they do n't have the work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've got more than 10 years "experience.
" It been a rough road trying to get work the last two years.
Here are some close calls I had:1. interviewer wanted me to log in remotely via ssh.
Then write an app in php on the command line to determine, if a word was a palindrome.
I almost got it but ran out of time.
The php program worked for most cases.
At the end of the interview, I jokingly asked him how many  people could not even log in?
He said 50\% could not get past that point.2.
A couple of other interviews, I've had three people at a time ( mostly engineers ) grill me.
They just pull whatever out of their asses.
If you miss a single thing then no job.3.
I had another company give me 9 interviews for a single position.
Most of the engineers were just called off of whatever they were doing unprepared.
It was like a regurgitation of my work history.
Then the last guy really gave a hard time pulling all sorts of shit out his ass.
Got most of it right but not good enough.I have a portfolio of programs I've written.
Want to see it work?
Not good enough.Its just a difficult work environment out there.
Frankly, I think they don't have the work.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651322</id>
	<title>Proof that our economy is fundamentally broken</title>
	<author>jeko</author>
	<datestamp>1269777840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"As a manager, I posted for <b>an entry level position</b> "</p><p>"I ended up getting the best candidate -- over <b>twelve years of experience pertinent to my business</b>, glowing reviews from previous employers and excellent interpersonal skills."</p><p>"Is it fair? Maybe not."</p><p>There, right there, is why I don't teach. I cannot, in good conscience, tell some poor kid to work hard, stay in school, study like a madman, fight for good grades, and work 80 hours a week to put himself through school like I did, knowing that there won't be a job for him.</p><p>We all know this economy HAS NO entry-level jobs. The same people who so cavalierly smirk "life ain't fair" will be the same people whining and gibbering the loudest when the young we've screwed over pass the "Mandatory Euthanasia/Nutrition Enhancement Act of 2025."</p><p>As the next generation straps me and the whiners into the gurneys so we can watch the pretty movie while the drugs start dripping down our IVs, I look forward to finding the fattest, loudest schmucks bawling the like Glenn Beck and telling them, "It's OK. Life ain't fair," before it all goes black.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" As a manager , I posted for an entry level position " " I ended up getting the best candidate -- over twelve years of experience pertinent to my business , glowing reviews from previous employers and excellent interpersonal skills .
" " Is it fair ?
Maybe not .
" There , right there , is why I do n't teach .
I can not , in good conscience , tell some poor kid to work hard , stay in school , study like a madman , fight for good grades , and work 80 hours a week to put himself through school like I did , knowing that there wo n't be a job for him.We all know this economy HAS NO entry-level jobs .
The same people who so cavalierly smirk " life ai n't fair " will be the same people whining and gibbering the loudest when the young we 've screwed over pass the " Mandatory Euthanasia/Nutrition Enhancement Act of 2025 .
" As the next generation straps me and the whiners into the gurneys so we can watch the pretty movie while the drugs start dripping down our IVs , I look forward to finding the fattest , loudest schmucks bawling the like Glenn Beck and telling them , " It 's OK. Life ai n't fair , " before it all goes black .
   </tokentext>
<sentencetext>"As a manager, I posted for an entry level position ""I ended up getting the best candidate -- over twelve years of experience pertinent to my business, glowing reviews from previous employers and excellent interpersonal skills.
""Is it fair?
Maybe not.
"There, right there, is why I don't teach.
I cannot, in good conscience, tell some poor kid to work hard, stay in school, study like a madman, fight for good grades, and work 80 hours a week to put himself through school like I did, knowing that there won't be a job for him.We all know this economy HAS NO entry-level jobs.
The same people who so cavalierly smirk "life ain't fair" will be the same people whining and gibbering the loudest when the young we've screwed over pass the "Mandatory Euthanasia/Nutrition Enhancement Act of 2025.
"As the next generation straps me and the whiners into the gurneys so we can watch the pretty movie while the drugs start dripping down our IVs, I look forward to finding the fattest, loudest schmucks bawling the like Glenn Beck and telling them, "It's OK. Life ain't fair," before it all goes black.
   </sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650316</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650840</id>
	<title>Re:The sad fact is...</title>
	<author>Bigjeff5</author>
	<datestamp>1269774420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The sad fact is GPA and the school you went to really matter a lot when getting past HR.</p></div><p>Not really.  A good GPA will help you, but a mediocre GPA won't hurt you if you write your resume well.</p><p>The key to getting past HR is to have a resume that gets HR's attention <i>in the first sentence</i>.  Usually large job postings are whittled down by keyword searches, so if you are looking for a programming job make sure you actually mention things relevant to programming in your resume.  After that point, the HR screener just skims the resumes, looking for the ones that grab his attention.  This is likely where the GP is having a problem.  Open up the resume, look at the first sentence, and if there isn't anything that screams "Hey! I'm Special!" in the first half of the sentence, you're probably going to be rejected.  If the HR guy doesn't have too many to sift through, he may bother to read the whole sentence.  He definitely won't read your whole resume at this point.</p><p>Another thing to realize, is that most jobs don't follow the "post, interview, then hire" format.  For the majority of jobs, a person is found, the company (or department, or whatever) realizes they could use that person in a position, and the person is offered a job.  If jobs are posted at all in this case, it's only to satisfy some company policy or a legal requirement, and the person who will get the job has already been chosen.  Easily half or more of jobs are gained this way, and you won't stand a chance getting it unless you are spectacularly better than the person they have already chosen.  In that case, they'll at least look at you.  These jobs are generally <i>much</i> better than publicly posted jobs too.  The only way you'll get one is to network.  Go find companies you'd like to work for, and start to find out about the company and the people who work there.  If the company is big enough, you can just hang out and talk to the receptionist (as long as they aren't very busy) for a portion of the day.  There's a good chance you'll get to know someone who has the ability to hire you, and you just might be able to interest them in your services.</p><p>If all you really want, though, is an entry level position, you can always sign up through a contracting service.  The jobs tend to suck, but are also often a way companies like to feel out potential new employees who have little or no work experience - it's a lot easier to go through 10 temps until you find a good one worth hiring than it is to hire and fire 10 employees.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The sad fact is GPA and the school you went to really matter a lot when getting past HR.Not really .
A good GPA will help you , but a mediocre GPA wo n't hurt you if you write your resume well.The key to getting past HR is to have a resume that gets HR 's attention in the first sentence .
Usually large job postings are whittled down by keyword searches , so if you are looking for a programming job make sure you actually mention things relevant to programming in your resume .
After that point , the HR screener just skims the resumes , looking for the ones that grab his attention .
This is likely where the GP is having a problem .
Open up the resume , look at the first sentence , and if there is n't anything that screams " Hey !
I 'm Special !
" in the first half of the sentence , you 're probably going to be rejected .
If the HR guy does n't have too many to sift through , he may bother to read the whole sentence .
He definitely wo n't read your whole resume at this point.Another thing to realize , is that most jobs do n't follow the " post , interview , then hire " format .
For the majority of jobs , a person is found , the company ( or department , or whatever ) realizes they could use that person in a position , and the person is offered a job .
If jobs are posted at all in this case , it 's only to satisfy some company policy or a legal requirement , and the person who will get the job has already been chosen .
Easily half or more of jobs are gained this way , and you wo n't stand a chance getting it unless you are spectacularly better than the person they have already chosen .
In that case , they 'll at least look at you .
These jobs are generally much better than publicly posted jobs too .
The only way you 'll get one is to network .
Go find companies you 'd like to work for , and start to find out about the company and the people who work there .
If the company is big enough , you can just hang out and talk to the receptionist ( as long as they are n't very busy ) for a portion of the day .
There 's a good chance you 'll get to know someone who has the ability to hire you , and you just might be able to interest them in your services.If all you really want , though , is an entry level position , you can always sign up through a contracting service .
The jobs tend to suck , but are also often a way companies like to feel out potential new employees who have little or no work experience - it 's a lot easier to go through 10 temps until you find a good one worth hiring than it is to hire and fire 10 employees .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The sad fact is GPA and the school you went to really matter a lot when getting past HR.Not really.
A good GPA will help you, but a mediocre GPA won't hurt you if you write your resume well.The key to getting past HR is to have a resume that gets HR's attention in the first sentence.
Usually large job postings are whittled down by keyword searches, so if you are looking for a programming job make sure you actually mention things relevant to programming in your resume.
After that point, the HR screener just skims the resumes, looking for the ones that grab his attention.
This is likely where the GP is having a problem.
Open up the resume, look at the first sentence, and if there isn't anything that screams "Hey!
I'm Special!
" in the first half of the sentence, you're probably going to be rejected.
If the HR guy doesn't have too many to sift through, he may bother to read the whole sentence.
He definitely won't read your whole resume at this point.Another thing to realize, is that most jobs don't follow the "post, interview, then hire" format.
For the majority of jobs, a person is found, the company (or department, or whatever) realizes they could use that person in a position, and the person is offered a job.
If jobs are posted at all in this case, it's only to satisfy some company policy or a legal requirement, and the person who will get the job has already been chosen.
Easily half or more of jobs are gained this way, and you won't stand a chance getting it unless you are spectacularly better than the person they have already chosen.
In that case, they'll at least look at you.
These jobs are generally much better than publicly posted jobs too.
The only way you'll get one is to network.
Go find companies you'd like to work for, and start to find out about the company and the people who work there.
If the company is big enough, you can just hang out and talk to the receptionist (as long as they aren't very busy) for a portion of the day.
There's a good chance you'll get to know someone who has the ability to hire you, and you just might be able to interest them in your services.If all you really want, though, is an entry level position, you can always sign up through a contracting service.
The jobs tend to suck, but are also often a way companies like to feel out potential new employees who have little or no work experience - it's a lot easier to go through 10 temps until you find a good one worth hiring than it is to hire and fire 10 employees.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650242</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651720</id>
	<title>staffing firms are clueless at time to point of pa</title>
	<author>Joe The Dragon</author>
	<datestamp>1269781080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>staffing firms are clueless at time to point of pay people to sit a office to have little to no work to do (and stuff that they having you doing grunt stuff that is not the job they hired you for) as they are waiting on paper work to go though But there is a lot more to that story.</p><p>1st the boss (only in that office 1 day a week) things that the paper work was done and the recruiters says we are working on it so they say I can start on the job I was hired for but I can do some stuff and help out the people there a bit. But while doing that I was doing some stuff the wrong way but it takes a week for the boss to telling me that so I end up pissing off people for a week by doing stuff wrong but it's was only some people where pissed off and there may of been as I was from a staffing firm and not working there as a employee of that office.</p><p>2st there was a higher up boss that was only in the office 2 week a mouth and 2 week out of state and I did spent some time with him and one of thingd he told me to due was switch out a old hub with a switch and that pissed off some boss of a other part of office. But that was taken care of by him. (We also had a system for them in a storage room but other people in my team did not know about / what it was for some days as well I found it while clearing up the storage rooms) He also let keep a laptop in office with some training manuals on it but do poor team team communication I was not able to use it as we told the 1st boss but the team did not find out / was not told and I need to hide it in the storage room and only get to read them for a few min a day.</p><p>3st On day I left alone in office as the other team people when off site and later the 1st boss said I was not to be left alone like that the next week.</p><p>4st I was to look over what the other team members where doing as part of the job but there where pushing me off of them even after the 1st boss said to do that so I just ending doing more clearing up the storage rooms and taking boxes / other trash down to dumpster bins.</p><p>and after about a mouth of that the staffing contract has ended and they are working on a reup and after about 2 months of that it came back with a lot less people.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>staffing firms are clueless at time to point of pay people to sit a office to have little to no work to do ( and stuff that they having you doing grunt stuff that is not the job they hired you for ) as they are waiting on paper work to go though But there is a lot more to that story.1st the boss ( only in that office 1 day a week ) things that the paper work was done and the recruiters says we are working on it so they say I can start on the job I was hired for but I can do some stuff and help out the people there a bit .
But while doing that I was doing some stuff the wrong way but it takes a week for the boss to telling me that so I end up pissing off people for a week by doing stuff wrong but it 's was only some people where pissed off and there may of been as I was from a staffing firm and not working there as a employee of that office.2st there was a higher up boss that was only in the office 2 week a mouth and 2 week out of state and I did spent some time with him and one of thingd he told me to due was switch out a old hub with a switch and that pissed off some boss of a other part of office .
But that was taken care of by him .
( We also had a system for them in a storage room but other people in my team did not know about / what it was for some days as well I found it while clearing up the storage rooms ) He also let keep a laptop in office with some training manuals on it but do poor team team communication I was not able to use it as we told the 1st boss but the team did not find out / was not told and I need to hide it in the storage room and only get to read them for a few min a day.3st On day I left alone in office as the other team people when off site and later the 1st boss said I was not to be left alone like that the next week.4st I was to look over what the other team members where doing as part of the job but there where pushing me off of them even after the 1st boss said to do that so I just ending doing more clearing up the storage rooms and taking boxes / other trash down to dumpster bins.and after about a mouth of that the staffing contract has ended and they are working on a reup and after about 2 months of that it came back with a lot less people .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>staffing firms are clueless at time to point of pay people to sit a office to have little to no work to do (and stuff that they having you doing grunt stuff that is not the job they hired you for) as they are waiting on paper work to go though But there is a lot more to that story.1st the boss (only in that office 1 day a week) things that the paper work was done and the recruiters says we are working on it so they say I can start on the job I was hired for but I can do some stuff and help out the people there a bit.
But while doing that I was doing some stuff the wrong way but it takes a week for the boss to telling me that so I end up pissing off people for a week by doing stuff wrong but it's was only some people where pissed off and there may of been as I was from a staffing firm and not working there as a employee of that office.2st there was a higher up boss that was only in the office 2 week a mouth and 2 week out of state and I did spent some time with him and one of thingd he told me to due was switch out a old hub with a switch and that pissed off some boss of a other part of office.
But that was taken care of by him.
(We also had a system for them in a storage room but other people in my team did not know about / what it was for some days as well I found it while clearing up the storage rooms) He also let keep a laptop in office with some training manuals on it but do poor team team communication I was not able to use it as we told the 1st boss but the team did not find out / was not told and I need to hide it in the storage room and only get to read them for a few min a day.3st On day I left alone in office as the other team people when off site and later the 1st boss said I was not to be left alone like that the next week.4st I was to look over what the other team members where doing as part of the job but there where pushing me off of them even after the 1st boss said to do that so I just ending doing more clearing up the storage rooms and taking boxes / other trash down to dumpster bins.and after about a mouth of that the staffing contract has ended and they are working on a reup and after about 2 months of that it came back with a lot less people.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652826</id>
	<title>general advise</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269792480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>get a phone number and a name for the person in charge of hiring for the position you are applying for and call them within 1-2 weeks of applying if they have not contacted you by phone in that time.  You are entry level without experience, so a way to get yourself considered is to show that you are willing to put forth the extra effort to get noticed and hired.</p><p>If you do do this, make sure you can show enthusiasm for the job and company you are applying for.  HR is more likely to consider someone they can tell is going to put forth the effort to learn and do the job well than just another qualified person applying for the job.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>get a phone number and a name for the person in charge of hiring for the position you are applying for and call them within 1-2 weeks of applying if they have not contacted you by phone in that time .
You are entry level without experience , so a way to get yourself considered is to show that you are willing to put forth the extra effort to get noticed and hired.If you do do this , make sure you can show enthusiasm for the job and company you are applying for .
HR is more likely to consider someone they can tell is going to put forth the effort to learn and do the job well than just another qualified person applying for the job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>get a phone number and a name for the person in charge of hiring for the position you are applying for and call them within 1-2 weeks of applying if they have not contacted you by phone in that time.
You are entry level without experience, so a way to get yourself considered is to show that you are willing to put forth the extra effort to get noticed and hired.If you do do this, make sure you can show enthusiasm for the job and company you are applying for.
HR is more likely to consider someone they can tell is going to put forth the effort to learn and do the job well than just another qualified person applying for the job.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31653242</id>
	<title>Try to find the right shop</title>
	<author>Noam.of.Doom</author>
	<datestamp>1269796740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was released from the army with 3 years of development and team leadership under my belt, but it was still not enough for most of the big companies since it isn't exactly experience in the industry.</p><p>By chance I managed to find a small (and now very successful) startup which were actually looking for a developer with a clean slate that doesn't have necessarily much knowledge, but has potential to be a good developer; so that they could help him and build him up the proper way.</p><p>Guess who nailed the position and is now super happy in his modest, yet uber-satisfying job<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:D</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was released from the army with 3 years of development and team leadership under my belt , but it was still not enough for most of the big companies since it is n't exactly experience in the industry.By chance I managed to find a small ( and now very successful ) startup which were actually looking for a developer with a clean slate that does n't have necessarily much knowledge , but has potential to be a good developer ; so that they could help him and build him up the proper way.Guess who nailed the position and is now super happy in his modest , yet uber-satisfying job : D</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was released from the army with 3 years of development and team leadership under my belt, but it was still not enough for most of the big companies since it isn't exactly experience in the industry.By chance I managed to find a small (and now very successful) startup which were actually looking for a developer with a clean slate that doesn't have necessarily much knowledge, but has potential to be a good developer; so that they could help him and build him up the proper way.Guess who nailed the position and is now super happy in his modest, yet uber-satisfying job :D</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31657146</id>
	<title>Re:Manners are somewhat lacking</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269877620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> If you do manage to get an interview they may very well think that silence is the same thing as telling somebody they didn't get the job.</p></div><p>CCP is guilty of this.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you do manage to get an interview they may very well think that silence is the same thing as telling somebody they did n't get the job.CCP is guilty of this .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> If you do manage to get an interview they may very well think that silence is the same thing as telling somebody they didn't get the job.CCP is guilty of this.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650246</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650368</id>
	<title>Friends and family</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269771240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>Have you asked your friends and family. And families friends...and so on.<br> <br>That's were most of the jobs are. Which is a bit sad.<br> <br>And remember, don't take just any job. You have a degree and you've spent a lot of money on it. The salary of your new job should reflect this.In Norway for instance starting salary for an uneducated is about 280'000,- kr. The cost of 5 years of study is 333000 in loans. 20 years from now your education will have cost you 1'400'000 (5 years of lost income) + 999'000 in down payments = 2'399'000. So if you are planning on paying that down you need to make close to 400'000,- kr a year.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Have you asked your friends and family .
And families friends...and so on .
That 's were most of the jobs are .
Which is a bit sad .
And remember , do n't take just any job .
You have a degree and you 've spent a lot of money on it .
The salary of your new job should reflect this.In Norway for instance starting salary for an uneducated is about 280'000,- kr .
The cost of 5 years of study is 333000 in loans .
20 years from now your education will have cost you 1'400'000 ( 5 years of lost income ) + 999'000 in down payments = 2'399'000 .
So if you are planning on paying that down you need to make close to 400'000,- kr a year .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Have you asked your friends and family.
And families friends...and so on.
That's were most of the jobs are.
Which is a bit sad.
And remember, don't take just any job.
You have a degree and you've spent a lot of money on it.
The salary of your new job should reflect this.In Norway for instance starting salary for an uneducated is about 280'000,- kr.
The cost of 5 years of study is 333000 in loans.
20 years from now your education will have cost you 1'400'000 (5 years of lost income) + 999'000 in down payments = 2'399'000.
So if you are planning on paying that down you need to make close to 400'000,- kr a year.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651822</id>
	<title>Re:Apply</title>
	<author>LanMan04</author>
	<datestamp>1269782100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Meh, don't worry OP, I Foe-ed this guy some time in the past so his comment is worthless.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Meh , do n't worry OP , I Foe-ed this guy some time in the past so his comment is worthless .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Meh, don't worry OP, I Foe-ed this guy some time in the past so his comment is worthless.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650362</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652744</id>
	<title>Java.</title>
	<author>sitarlo</author>
	<datestamp>1269791280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Get a Java *Developer* certification, learn everything you can about Java, JSP, Javascript/AJAX, HTML, XML, SQL, Eclipse, Netbeans, Spring, Hibernate, and OOD/Design Patterns, then apply for contracting positions with recruiting firms in the major cities.  You'll land a $50+ per hour gig in no time if you interview well and actually know your stuff.  The Washington DC / Northern Virginia area is a hotbed for Java talent, also Charlotte or Raleigh NC, and of course LA or San Francisco.  All of these are good places to live and to get a start as a professional programmer.  Keep in mind that HR people are completely clueless about technology so their screening is generally canned or provided by technical management (who's also generally clueless about technology).  When you get far enough into the process to go through a "tech screen", you MUST know your stuff well enough to either answer the questions correctly or explain that you know a little about the subject but aren't familiar with the details, though "you'd like to learn".  Don't even try to get a programming job if you can't answer questions like "what is an interface?", or "what is the difference between the heap and the stack?", or "when would you use a flyweight and why?".</htmltext>
<tokenext>Get a Java * Developer * certification , learn everything you can about Java , JSP , Javascript/AJAX , HTML , XML , SQL , Eclipse , Netbeans , Spring , Hibernate , and OOD/Design Patterns , then apply for contracting positions with recruiting firms in the major cities .
You 'll land a $ 50 + per hour gig in no time if you interview well and actually know your stuff .
The Washington DC / Northern Virginia area is a hotbed for Java talent , also Charlotte or Raleigh NC , and of course LA or San Francisco .
All of these are good places to live and to get a start as a professional programmer .
Keep in mind that HR people are completely clueless about technology so their screening is generally canned or provided by technical management ( who 's also generally clueless about technology ) .
When you get far enough into the process to go through a " tech screen " , you MUST know your stuff well enough to either answer the questions correctly or explain that you know a little about the subject but are n't familiar with the details , though " you 'd like to learn " .
Do n't even try to get a programming job if you ca n't answer questions like " what is an interface ?
" , or " what is the difference between the heap and the stack ?
" , or " when would you use a flyweight and why ?
" .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Get a Java *Developer* certification, learn everything you can about Java, JSP, Javascript/AJAX, HTML, XML, SQL, Eclipse, Netbeans, Spring, Hibernate, and OOD/Design Patterns, then apply for contracting positions with recruiting firms in the major cities.
You'll land a $50+ per hour gig in no time if you interview well and actually know your stuff.
The Washington DC / Northern Virginia area is a hotbed for Java talent, also Charlotte or Raleigh NC, and of course LA or San Francisco.
All of these are good places to live and to get a start as a professional programmer.
Keep in mind that HR people are completely clueless about technology so their screening is generally canned or provided by technical management (who's also generally clueless about technology).
When you get far enough into the process to go through a "tech screen", you MUST know your stuff well enough to either answer the questions correctly or explain that you know a little about the subject but aren't familiar with the details, though "you'd like to learn".
Don't even try to get a programming job if you can't answer questions like "what is an interface?
", or "what is the difference between the heap and the stack?
", or "when would you use a flyweight and why?
".</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31653276</id>
	<title>Start your own business</title>
	<author>WalterBright</author>
	<datestamp>1269797280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>When I started out, nobody was interested in interviewing or hiring me, either. After starting my own business writing software, however, this ceased to be a problem.</htmltext>
<tokenext>When I started out , nobody was interested in interviewing or hiring me , either .
After starting my own business writing software , however , this ceased to be a problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I started out, nobody was interested in interviewing or hiring me, either.
After starting my own business writing software, however, this ceased to be a problem.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650704</id>
	<title>To that I'll add</title>
	<author>Sycraft-fu</author>
	<datestamp>1269773580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If your experience with programming is having a CS degree, you aren't a developer. You are, well, a computer scientist. The same thing you say? Not hardly. While both deal with programming, it is from different aspects. Computer Science is a theoretical field. It is based around the research of computers and algorithms, around the theory of how to program, how to make them better. Fine, but that isn't what most companies are hiring. They are hiring developers, which is the practical side. They are hiring people who will be told to solve real world problem X and do it quickly. They want people with practical knowledge of how to develop apps on today's systems, not theoretical knowledge of computers over all.</p><p>So if all you experience is in computer science, that's a disadvantage. Don't get me wrong, having a strong theory background can help, but it isn't what companies are after. If you feel a bit cheated by your university, well, ya, kinda happens that way.</p><p>The problem derives from the history of universities. They have historically been high level, theoretical institutions. Time was, that was really the only reason you went there. When Harvard first started, then called Oxford after the English school, you had to know Latin and Greek just to get admitted. It wasn't a place where you got practical training for a job, it was just the polish to an already fine education that included many purely academic pursuits. Few people got those sorts of degrees.</p><p>Ok well our current universities get their heritage from that system. So while we now have more complex jobs that want more training than high school gives, students still by and large go to theoretical institutions. The universities are trying to present more practical training, but aren't doing a great job over all.</p><p>Now please note, I say this as someone who works at a university. It is just something you need to be realistic about. Your degree can be helpful, but you need to get practical experience outside of it. The only time you tend to see an "All degree," field is if you are seeking to become a PhD and teach/research at a university. Anything else, you need to get practical experience as well as the degree.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If your experience with programming is having a CS degree , you are n't a developer .
You are , well , a computer scientist .
The same thing you say ?
Not hardly .
While both deal with programming , it is from different aspects .
Computer Science is a theoretical field .
It is based around the research of computers and algorithms , around the theory of how to program , how to make them better .
Fine , but that is n't what most companies are hiring .
They are hiring developers , which is the practical side .
They are hiring people who will be told to solve real world problem X and do it quickly .
They want people with practical knowledge of how to develop apps on today 's systems , not theoretical knowledge of computers over all.So if all you experience is in computer science , that 's a disadvantage .
Do n't get me wrong , having a strong theory background can help , but it is n't what companies are after .
If you feel a bit cheated by your university , well , ya , kinda happens that way.The problem derives from the history of universities .
They have historically been high level , theoretical institutions .
Time was , that was really the only reason you went there .
When Harvard first started , then called Oxford after the English school , you had to know Latin and Greek just to get admitted .
It was n't a place where you got practical training for a job , it was just the polish to an already fine education that included many purely academic pursuits .
Few people got those sorts of degrees.Ok well our current universities get their heritage from that system .
So while we now have more complex jobs that want more training than high school gives , students still by and large go to theoretical institutions .
The universities are trying to present more practical training , but are n't doing a great job over all.Now please note , I say this as someone who works at a university .
It is just something you need to be realistic about .
Your degree can be helpful , but you need to get practical experience outside of it .
The only time you tend to see an " All degree , " field is if you are seeking to become a PhD and teach/research at a university .
Anything else , you need to get practical experience as well as the degree .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If your experience with programming is having a CS degree, you aren't a developer.
You are, well, a computer scientist.
The same thing you say?
Not hardly.
While both deal with programming, it is from different aspects.
Computer Science is a theoretical field.
It is based around the research of computers and algorithms, around the theory of how to program, how to make them better.
Fine, but that isn't what most companies are hiring.
They are hiring developers, which is the practical side.
They are hiring people who will be told to solve real world problem X and do it quickly.
They want people with practical knowledge of how to develop apps on today's systems, not theoretical knowledge of computers over all.So if all you experience is in computer science, that's a disadvantage.
Don't get me wrong, having a strong theory background can help, but it isn't what companies are after.
If you feel a bit cheated by your university, well, ya, kinda happens that way.The problem derives from the history of universities.
They have historically been high level, theoretical institutions.
Time was, that was really the only reason you went there.
When Harvard first started, then called Oxford after the English school, you had to know Latin and Greek just to get admitted.
It wasn't a place where you got practical training for a job, it was just the polish to an already fine education that included many purely academic pursuits.
Few people got those sorts of degrees.Ok well our current universities get their heritage from that system.
So while we now have more complex jobs that want more training than high school gives, students still by and large go to theoretical institutions.
The universities are trying to present more practical training, but aren't doing a great job over all.Now please note, I say this as someone who works at a university.
It is just something you need to be realistic about.
Your degree can be helpful, but you need to get practical experience outside of it.
The only time you tend to see an "All degree," field is if you are seeking to become a PhD and teach/research at a university.
Anything else, you need to get practical experience as well as the degree.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650362</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31657386</id>
	<title>Re:The sad fact is...</title>
	<author>pnuema</author>
	<datestamp>1269878460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p><div class="quote"><p>The sad fact is GPA and the school you went to really matter a lot when getting past HR.</p></div><p>I think this is a common misconception on slashdot. Perhaps it's a regional thought process, but here in Austin, if you have the degree, it doesn't matter where you got it from (as long as it's accredited) and nobody will ever know your GPA (unless you tell them).</p></div><p>

How about this: GPA largely doesn't matter, except when it is exceptional - over 3.7 or under 2.0 - a this will ONLY matter on your first real job after college. Once you have two years experience in the field, your degree becomes a check mark - as in "Does he have one?". No one will ever look closely again. The school you went to can help you longer term, but again, only if it is exceptional. If you went to an Ivy league school, you may run across a manager some day that will give you a leg up because of it. Otherwise, any old degree from any old school will do.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The sad fact is GPA and the school you went to really matter a lot when getting past HR.I think this is a common misconception on slashdot .
Perhaps it 's a regional thought process , but here in Austin , if you have the degree , it does n't matter where you got it from ( as long as it 's accredited ) and nobody will ever know your GPA ( unless you tell them ) .
How about this : GPA largely does n't matter , except when it is exceptional - over 3.7 or under 2.0 - a this will ONLY matter on your first real job after college .
Once you have two years experience in the field , your degree becomes a check mark - as in " Does he have one ? " .
No one will ever look closely again .
The school you went to can help you longer term , but again , only if it is exceptional .
If you went to an Ivy league school , you may run across a manager some day that will give you a leg up because of it .
Otherwise , any old degree from any old school will do .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The sad fact is GPA and the school you went to really matter a lot when getting past HR.I think this is a common misconception on slashdot.
Perhaps it's a regional thought process, but here in Austin, if you have the degree, it doesn't matter where you got it from (as long as it's accredited) and nobody will ever know your GPA (unless you tell them).
How about this: GPA largely doesn't matter, except when it is exceptional - over 3.7 or under 2.0 - a this will ONLY matter on your first real job after college.
Once you have two years experience in the field, your degree becomes a check mark - as in "Does he have one?".
No one will ever look closely again.
The school you went to can help you longer term, but again, only if it is exceptional.
If you went to an Ivy league school, you may run across a manager some day that will give you a leg up because of it.
Otherwise, any old degree from any old school will do.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652460</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652640</id>
	<title>Wonderful World of Work</title>
	<author>flyneye</author>
	<datestamp>1269789960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In this quickly changing world, the average career lasts about 6 years before a change to something completely different.You can check that info out if you don't believe it.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I m'self have worked several jobs in categories completely unrelated to my aspirations.Then a few years ago I realized I had learned enough to go into business for myself in my unrelated avocation. I have spent years building up to beginning my own business, tooling up, self educating, doing independent small related contractual jobs. Soon I will be out on my own doing what I want to do full time. I won't need a bank loan, investors,employees(at first) or anything from anyone else.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; As you struggle to pay off your school loan, whether in your first programming job or a "get by till I find what I want job", consider a meta picture of life and your hopes and dreams from it. Will programming in a quickly changing fickle market be your goal or just a piece of your puzzle?<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; It used to be important to only choose a career, go to college and then spend your life clawing your way to the top of your choice.That was your grandfathers world. Now making goals 20 yrs. into the future is barely enough. Careers change faster than clothing styles. Look for that big picture of what you want out of life and consider programming a step whether you end up in a cubicle or not. Look at the job market. What's big out there? Medical related jobs take up most of the job boards I can see. I'd start looking in that area. Everything there is software and databases nowadays. Insurance and real estate are big now as well. Think laterally rather than linearly, the most obvious paths are usually crowded dead ends.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In this quickly changing world , the average career lasts about 6 years before a change to something completely different.You can check that info out if you do n't believe it .
            I m'self have worked several jobs in categories completely unrelated to my aspirations.Then a few years ago I realized I had learned enough to go into business for myself in my unrelated avocation .
I have spent years building up to beginning my own business , tooling up , self educating , doing independent small related contractual jobs .
Soon I will be out on my own doing what I want to do full time .
I wo n't need a bank loan , investors,employees ( at first ) or anything from anyone else .
          As you struggle to pay off your school loan , whether in your first programming job or a " get by till I find what I want job " , consider a meta picture of life and your hopes and dreams from it .
Will programming in a quickly changing fickle market be your goal or just a piece of your puzzle ?
        It used to be important to only choose a career , go to college and then spend your life clawing your way to the top of your choice.That was your grandfathers world .
Now making goals 20 yrs .
into the future is barely enough .
Careers change faster than clothing styles .
Look for that big picture of what you want out of life and consider programming a step whether you end up in a cubicle or not .
Look at the job market .
What 's big out there ?
Medical related jobs take up most of the job boards I can see .
I 'd start looking in that area .
Everything there is software and databases nowadays .
Insurance and real estate are big now as well .
Think laterally rather than linearly , the most obvious paths are usually crowded dead ends .
         </tokentext>
<sentencetext>In this quickly changing world, the average career lasts about 6 years before a change to something completely different.You can check that info out if you don't believe it.
            I m'self have worked several jobs in categories completely unrelated to my aspirations.Then a few years ago I realized I had learned enough to go into business for myself in my unrelated avocation.
I have spent years building up to beginning my own business, tooling up, self educating, doing independent small related contractual jobs.
Soon I will be out on my own doing what I want to do full time.
I won't need a bank loan, investors,employees(at first) or anything from anyone else.
          As you struggle to pay off your school loan, whether in your first programming job or a "get by till I find what I want job", consider a meta picture of life and your hopes and dreams from it.
Will programming in a quickly changing fickle market be your goal or just a piece of your puzzle?
        It used to be important to only choose a career, go to college and then spend your life clawing your way to the top of your choice.That was your grandfathers world.
Now making goals 20 yrs.
into the future is barely enough.
Careers change faster than clothing styles.
Look for that big picture of what you want out of life and consider programming a step whether you end up in a cubicle or not.
Look at the job market.
What's big out there?
Medical related jobs take up most of the job boards I can see.
I'd start looking in that area.
Everything there is software and databases nowadays.
Insurance and real estate are big now as well.
Think laterally rather than linearly, the most obvious paths are usually crowded dead ends.
         </sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650458</id>
	<title>Show us your resume</title>
	<author>DoofusOfDeath</author>
	<datestamp>1269771840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you post an anonymized version of your resume, I'll be happy to see if there's anything obviously wrong with it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you post an anonymized version of your resume , I 'll be happy to see if there 's anything obviously wrong with it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you post an anonymized version of your resume, I'll be happy to see if there's anything obviously wrong with it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651514</id>
	<title>move</title>
	<author>colmore</author>
	<datestamp>1269779220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Move to a city with a lot of IT.  Take ANY job, even if it's Geek Squad.  Start networking like crazy, join a LUG, attend conferences and talks, put yourself out there.  The vast majority of all jobs are not given to a resume on a stack.  Meet people.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Move to a city with a lot of IT .
Take ANY job , even if it 's Geek Squad .
Start networking like crazy , join a LUG , attend conferences and talks , put yourself out there .
The vast majority of all jobs are not given to a resume on a stack .
Meet people .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Move to a city with a lot of IT.
Take ANY job, even if it's Geek Squad.
Start networking like crazy, join a LUG, attend conferences and talks, put yourself out there.
The vast majority of all jobs are not given to a resume on a stack.
Meet people.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651278</id>
	<title>How to? Simple!</title>
	<author>Anticrawl</author>
	<datestamp>1269777540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Best way to land an entry level job?

1) Write resume
2) Apply for job
3) ????????
4) PROFIT!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Best way to land an entry level job ?
1 ) Write resume 2 ) Apply for job 3 ) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
4 ) PROFIT !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Best way to land an entry level job?
1) Write resume
2) Apply for job
3) ????????
4) PROFIT!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651264</id>
	<title>Or... get a 'real' major...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269777300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I keep reading these "I need a job, I'm a programmer" stories or slashdot and can't help but think... "yeah so what, I can do that".</p><p>I have a Mechanical Engineering degree. I honestly don't do much more than 'program' all day. But all my for loops and if statements have physical implications in the real world.</p><p>I took CS120 (Java) for kicks because I liked programming. I also took CS240 (C/C++) again just for fun, but I was depressed to find out that I graduated top of both classes. Those were my ELECTIVE classes.</p><p>If you have the ability to pick up concepts, why not try for a Mechanical or Electrical engineering degree. Your programming skills won't become useless, but you will be able to use them in other ways.</p><p>If you understand how a For Loop works and you can pick up ANY of the Mechanical Engineering concepts (Thermo, Fluids, Controls, or Mechanics) you're going to be non-unemployable. I write code to dig through TBs of field data looking for events. I even have quite a few submissions to <a href="http://www.mathworks.com/matlabcentral/fileexchange/authors/30746" title="mathworks.com">Mathworks Central</a> [mathworks.com] and <a href="http://github.com/jedediahfrey" title="github.com">Git Hub</a> [github.com]</p><p>Don't limit yourself to just Programming. There are other skills that require "programming" but are not just limited to being able to program.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I keep reading these " I need a job , I 'm a programmer " stories or slashdot and ca n't help but think... " yeah so what , I can do that " .I have a Mechanical Engineering degree .
I honestly do n't do much more than 'program ' all day .
But all my for loops and if statements have physical implications in the real world.I took CS120 ( Java ) for kicks because I liked programming .
I also took CS240 ( C/C + + ) again just for fun , but I was depressed to find out that I graduated top of both classes .
Those were my ELECTIVE classes.If you have the ability to pick up concepts , why not try for a Mechanical or Electrical engineering degree .
Your programming skills wo n't become useless , but you will be able to use them in other ways.If you understand how a For Loop works and you can pick up ANY of the Mechanical Engineering concepts ( Thermo , Fluids , Controls , or Mechanics ) you 're going to be non-unemployable .
I write code to dig through TBs of field data looking for events .
I even have quite a few submissions to Mathworks Central [ mathworks.com ] and Git Hub [ github.com ] Do n't limit yourself to just Programming .
There are other skills that require " programming " but are not just limited to being able to program .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I keep reading these "I need a job, I'm a programmer" stories or slashdot and can't help but think... "yeah so what, I can do that".I have a Mechanical Engineering degree.
I honestly don't do much more than 'program' all day.
But all my for loops and if statements have physical implications in the real world.I took CS120 (Java) for kicks because I liked programming.
I also took CS240 (C/C++) again just for fun, but I was depressed to find out that I graduated top of both classes.
Those were my ELECTIVE classes.If you have the ability to pick up concepts, why not try for a Mechanical or Electrical engineering degree.
Your programming skills won't become useless, but you will be able to use them in other ways.If you understand how a For Loop works and you can pick up ANY of the Mechanical Engineering concepts (Thermo, Fluids, Controls, or Mechanics) you're going to be non-unemployable.
I write code to dig through TBs of field data looking for events.
I even have quite a few submissions to Mathworks Central [mathworks.com] and Git Hub [github.com]Don't limit yourself to just Programming.
There are other skills that require "programming" but are not just limited to being able to program.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650362</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650308</id>
	<title>What are your goals?</title>
	<author>silentbozo</author>
	<datestamp>1269770880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Do you want to just write code?  Do you want experience?  Do you have minimum pay requirements (due to living expenses, loans, etc.)?

<p>You may be better off finding an internship somewhere if you haven't already secured one.  Barring that, I'd suggest developing your own software, or doing some contracting work.

</p><p>Depending on your skill set and your career goals, you may not want an entry-level job.

</p><p>On the other hand, working a shit job may very well get you the contacts you need to get a non-shit job.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do you want to just write code ?
Do you want experience ?
Do you have minimum pay requirements ( due to living expenses , loans , etc. ) ?
You may be better off finding an internship somewhere if you have n't already secured one .
Barring that , I 'd suggest developing your own software , or doing some contracting work .
Depending on your skill set and your career goals , you may not want an entry-level job .
On the other hand , working a shit job may very well get you the contacts you need to get a non-shit job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Do you want to just write code?
Do you want experience?
Do you have minimum pay requirements (due to living expenses, loans, etc.)?
You may be better off finding an internship somewhere if you haven't already secured one.
Barring that, I'd suggest developing your own software, or doing some contracting work.
Depending on your skill set and your career goals, you may not want an entry-level job.
On the other hand, working a shit job may very well get you the contacts you need to get a non-shit job.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651182</id>
	<title>Re:show off your programming skills</title>
	<author>91degrees</author>
	<datestamp>1269776700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It does depend.  If I wanted a serious tech geek to work on a sophisticated project, this would be interesting.  If I was writing something tedious then I'd be a bit concerned that the programmer would simply be a bad fit.  It's possible to be overqualified for a job.  I suspect it might even be possible to be paradoxically over and underqualified at the same time.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It does depend .
If I wanted a serious tech geek to work on a sophisticated project , this would be interesting .
If I was writing something tedious then I 'd be a bit concerned that the programmer would simply be a bad fit .
It 's possible to be overqualified for a job .
I suspect it might even be possible to be paradoxically over and underqualified at the same time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It does depend.
If I wanted a serious tech geek to work on a sophisticated project, this would be interesting.
If I was writing something tedious then I'd be a bit concerned that the programmer would simply be a bad fit.
It's possible to be overqualified for a job.
I suspect it might even be possible to be paradoxically over and underqualified at the same time.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650214</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650286</id>
	<title>Elance</title>
	<author>slashkitty</author>
	<datestamp>1269770700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Build up your skills and portfolio.</p><p>My first job interview was mostly just showing off the websites I built.</p><p>Elance will let you get paid and will give you a better sense of what real work might be like.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Build up your skills and portfolio.My first job interview was mostly just showing off the websites I built.Elance will let you get paid and will give you a better sense of what real work might be like .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Build up your skills and portfolio.My first job interview was mostly just showing off the websites I built.Elance will let you get paid and will give you a better sense of what real work might be like.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650792</id>
	<title>Do something noteworthy</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269774120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Having hired quite a few fresh out of school programmers, I can tell you that the best way to stand out is to have actually done something that most others wouldn't do. I hired a guy who wrote a MUD for fun. I hired a guy for a web position who wrote a 3d game engine for fun. I hired a guy who spent a week learning the language before the interview. These guys showed that they were interested in programming for more than the job, and therefore would do a better job than the random guy who just graduated.</p><p>Go volunteer to work for your school, or build your friends wild business idea, or work on an open source project, or whatever. It really doesn't matter what it is, so long as it is goes above and beyond what a simple programmer would get through school, and is significant enough that you can put it in your cover letter or resume. Bonus marks if it is public and your potential employer can see it and try it out.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Having hired quite a few fresh out of school programmers , I can tell you that the best way to stand out is to have actually done something that most others would n't do .
I hired a guy who wrote a MUD for fun .
I hired a guy for a web position who wrote a 3d game engine for fun .
I hired a guy who spent a week learning the language before the interview .
These guys showed that they were interested in programming for more than the job , and therefore would do a better job than the random guy who just graduated.Go volunteer to work for your school , or build your friends wild business idea , or work on an open source project , or whatever .
It really does n't matter what it is , so long as it is goes above and beyond what a simple programmer would get through school , and is significant enough that you can put it in your cover letter or resume .
Bonus marks if it is public and your potential employer can see it and try it out .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Having hired quite a few fresh out of school programmers, I can tell you that the best way to stand out is to have actually done something that most others wouldn't do.
I hired a guy who wrote a MUD for fun.
I hired a guy for a web position who wrote a 3d game engine for fun.
I hired a guy who spent a week learning the language before the interview.
These guys showed that they were interested in programming for more than the job, and therefore would do a better job than the random guy who just graduated.Go volunteer to work for your school, or build your friends wild business idea, or work on an open source project, or whatever.
It really doesn't matter what it is, so long as it is goes above and beyond what a simple programmer would get through school, and is significant enough that you can put it in your cover letter or resume.
Bonus marks if it is public and your potential employer can see it and try it out.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652688</id>
	<title>It's not just you.</title>
	<author>Chris Snook</author>
	<datestamp>1269790560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The job market is shit right now.  People with lots of very valuable experience are having great difficulty getting a foot in the door.</p><p>Do you know people who work for companies that are hiring?  Recommendations from employees put you in a totally different (and much shorter) stack on the HR desk than unsolicited resumes.  That's not because of rampant corruption, but rather the very real fact that no sane hiring process can come close to evaluating how effectively a software developer will work as well as actually working with the person, be it in industry or school.  Work those contacts.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The job market is shit right now .
People with lots of very valuable experience are having great difficulty getting a foot in the door.Do you know people who work for companies that are hiring ?
Recommendations from employees put you in a totally different ( and much shorter ) stack on the HR desk than unsolicited resumes .
That 's not because of rampant corruption , but rather the very real fact that no sane hiring process can come close to evaluating how effectively a software developer will work as well as actually working with the person , be it in industry or school .
Work those contacts .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The job market is shit right now.
People with lots of very valuable experience are having great difficulty getting a foot in the door.Do you know people who work for companies that are hiring?
Recommendations from employees put you in a totally different (and much shorter) stack on the HR desk than unsolicited resumes.
That's not because of rampant corruption, but rather the very real fact that no sane hiring process can come close to evaluating how effectively a software developer will work as well as actually working with the person, be it in industry or school.
Work those contacts.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650738</id>
	<title>Improve your CV</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269773760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You need to improve your CV/resume. By this I don't mean do stuff, I literally mean "make it better".<br>Does your university/college offer a form of careers service? If so, go to them and ask them to look at it. They're not skilled in your field but they know how HR operates, which is invaluable.<br>Do you have a friend who has no problems getting jobs? Ask them to look at your CV.</p><p>Some pointers:</p><p>Make it easy to read. Line breaks, paragraphs, bullet points etc. all assist the person reading your CV looking for important information.</p><p>Achievements. Be they extra-curricular (did you win a coding competition?) or part of your curriculum (Are you on-course for a high grade? Are you scoring high in programming modules?).</p><p>Job Experience. ANY job experience will do. They won't ask you about it, but it gives an idea of how you perform in a work environment and a reference. If you are anything like me, your old work colleagues will know how good you are; even if they don't know what you're good at and they might be able to impart that onto prospective employers.</p><p>Open Source Projects. Especially if they're published and used to some extent (even if you think it's a bit shit).</p><p>Personal Life. This might sound irrelevent to a job, but I heard of a guy in a Fortune-500 company that hired people based on how good they were at football so he could have them on his team. That's rare, but it can give you something to talk about in the interview and might sway somebody who has similar interests if they're struggling to choose between candidates.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You need to improve your CV/resume .
By this I do n't mean do stuff , I literally mean " make it better " .Does your university/college offer a form of careers service ?
If so , go to them and ask them to look at it .
They 're not skilled in your field but they know how HR operates , which is invaluable.Do you have a friend who has no problems getting jobs ?
Ask them to look at your CV.Some pointers : Make it easy to read .
Line breaks , paragraphs , bullet points etc .
all assist the person reading your CV looking for important information.Achievements .
Be they extra-curricular ( did you win a coding competition ?
) or part of your curriculum ( Are you on-course for a high grade ?
Are you scoring high in programming modules ?
) .Job Experience .
ANY job experience will do .
They wo n't ask you about it , but it gives an idea of how you perform in a work environment and a reference .
If you are anything like me , your old work colleagues will know how good you are ; even if they do n't know what you 're good at and they might be able to impart that onto prospective employers.Open Source Projects .
Especially if they 're published and used to some extent ( even if you think it 's a bit shit ) .Personal Life .
This might sound irrelevent to a job , but I heard of a guy in a Fortune-500 company that hired people based on how good they were at football so he could have them on his team .
That 's rare , but it can give you something to talk about in the interview and might sway somebody who has similar interests if they 're struggling to choose between candidates .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You need to improve your CV/resume.
By this I don't mean do stuff, I literally mean "make it better".Does your university/college offer a form of careers service?
If so, go to them and ask them to look at it.
They're not skilled in your field but they know how HR operates, which is invaluable.Do you have a friend who has no problems getting jobs?
Ask them to look at your CV.Some pointers:Make it easy to read.
Line breaks, paragraphs, bullet points etc.
all assist the person reading your CV looking for important information.Achievements.
Be they extra-curricular (did you win a coding competition?
) or part of your curriculum (Are you on-course for a high grade?
Are you scoring high in programming modules?
).Job Experience.
ANY job experience will do.
They won't ask you about it, but it gives an idea of how you perform in a work environment and a reference.
If you are anything like me, your old work colleagues will know how good you are; even if they don't know what you're good at and they might be able to impart that onto prospective employers.Open Source Projects.
Especially if they're published and used to some extent (even if you think it's a bit shit).Personal Life.
This might sound irrelevent to a job, but I heard of a guy in a Fortune-500 company that hired people based on how good they were at football so he could have them on his team.
That's rare, but it can give you something to talk about in the interview and might sway somebody who has similar interests if they're struggling to choose between candidates.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31708036</id>
	<title>Re:Listen carefully to all the advice on job hunti</title>
	<author>parasite</author>
	<datestamp>1270232940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>WTF?</p><p>&gt;Don't over-prepare, you'll sound over-prepared. If you can't just sit there and naturally answer questions off the top of your head then you're probably not right for the job.</p><p>Not all of us our socialites like you. I have significant trouble responding to strangers' comments about the weather in a timely fashion without rehearsal or explicitly being told in advance "you might be expected to handle small talk today".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>WTF ? &gt; Do n't over-prepare , you 'll sound over-prepared .
If you ca n't just sit there and naturally answer questions off the top of your head then you 're probably not right for the job.Not all of us our socialites like you .
I have significant trouble responding to strangers ' comments about the weather in a timely fashion without rehearsal or explicitly being told in advance " you might be expected to handle small talk today " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>WTF?&gt;Don't over-prepare, you'll sound over-prepared.
If you can't just sit there and naturally answer questions off the top of your head then you're probably not right for the job.Not all of us our socialites like you.
I have significant trouble responding to strangers' comments about the weather in a timely fashion without rehearsal or explicitly being told in advance "you might be expected to handle small talk today".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651722</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650802</id>
	<title>A'ight</title>
	<author>Greyfox</author>
	<datestamp>1269774180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Just send out resumes and work on an open source project or something until you land an interview. Open source is a great way to show your stuff to a potential employer.
<p>
When you do get an interview, be prepared to answer questions about the shit on your resume. Very important. If you say you have SQL experience and can't answer me when I ask you what a left outer join is, I'm not going to call you back. Also actually listen to and think about the questions they ask you. When they ask you to design a function to do X, they're not really looking for you to write a function that does X. They're looking for you to ask more questions about what they really want (They always leave off some very important details,) draw what's going to happen in memory, you know, actually <b>design</b> something. And if they offer you a hint to get you moving in the right direction, for God's sake, take that hint. If I give you a hint and you keep writing code up on the white board, I'm not going to call you back.
</p><p>
Interview well and you can have any job you can get an interview for.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just send out resumes and work on an open source project or something until you land an interview .
Open source is a great way to show your stuff to a potential employer .
When you do get an interview , be prepared to answer questions about the shit on your resume .
Very important .
If you say you have SQL experience and ca n't answer me when I ask you what a left outer join is , I 'm not going to call you back .
Also actually listen to and think about the questions they ask you .
When they ask you to design a function to do X , they 're not really looking for you to write a function that does X. They 're looking for you to ask more questions about what they really want ( They always leave off some very important details , ) draw what 's going to happen in memory , you know , actually design something .
And if they offer you a hint to get you moving in the right direction , for God 's sake , take that hint .
If I give you a hint and you keep writing code up on the white board , I 'm not going to call you back .
Interview well and you can have any job you can get an interview for .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just send out resumes and work on an open source project or something until you land an interview.
Open source is a great way to show your stuff to a potential employer.
When you do get an interview, be prepared to answer questions about the shit on your resume.
Very important.
If you say you have SQL experience and can't answer me when I ask you what a left outer join is, I'm not going to call you back.
Also actually listen to and think about the questions they ask you.
When they ask you to design a function to do X, they're not really looking for you to write a function that does X. They're looking for you to ask more questions about what they really want (They always leave off some very important details,) draw what's going to happen in memory, you know, actually design something.
And if they offer you a hint to get you moving in the right direction, for God's sake, take that hint.
If I give you a hint and you keep writing code up on the white board, I'm not going to call you back.
Interview well and you can have any job you can get an interview for.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651204</id>
	<title>So prove yourself already..</title>
	<author>itomato</author>
	<datestamp>1269776880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There's no grizzled, cigar smoking boss behind the scenes, like in a boxing hero story.  Nobody (especially?) - not even the "Director" who is (supposedly) "in charge" of things at your Dream Job (TM) is able to judge you like your professors have evaluated and coached you.  That's their job.</p><p>They don't know what questions to ask to provoke the response you really want to give. The companies you're trying to get a job with are forever attempting to mitigate risk, often preempting other activities.  Assure them you are a shoe-in, an absolute Perfect Fit (TM) beyond compare.</p><p>Your CV/Resume and cover letter are your key, and usually your only hope.  If you have the benefit of recruiter calling you, even better, because they will Do Anything (TM) to get you in - all they care about is how well you stack up against the requirements of the opening.</p><p>Use the resume/cover letter process to your advantage: probe for any/all information (stock price, board of directors, etc.) put it all together, identify as many places you can apply individual attention to, and follow through.  Simply knowing what will come up during an interview, people who will be mentioned, technologies in play, business model, locations, all will define the nature of the conversation.</p><p>If you are able to interview, and things go well, leave something behind for them to remember you by - some printed material that demonstrates your capabilities.  Pretty-print some clean, well documented code, some charts, a CD-R with a descriptive label, something someone will look at on their desk and bring about internal dialog about your prowess and apparent "sureness" in capability and the minimal risk presented by selecting you.</p><p>Bottom line: nobody is going to come up and tap you on the shoulder.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's no grizzled , cigar smoking boss behind the scenes , like in a boxing hero story .
Nobody ( especially ?
) - not even the " Director " who is ( supposedly ) " in charge " of things at your Dream Job ( TM ) is able to judge you like your professors have evaluated and coached you .
That 's their job.They do n't know what questions to ask to provoke the response you really want to give .
The companies you 're trying to get a job with are forever attempting to mitigate risk , often preempting other activities .
Assure them you are a shoe-in , an absolute Perfect Fit ( TM ) beyond compare.Your CV/Resume and cover letter are your key , and usually your only hope .
If you have the benefit of recruiter calling you , even better , because they will Do Anything ( TM ) to get you in - all they care about is how well you stack up against the requirements of the opening.Use the resume/cover letter process to your advantage : probe for any/all information ( stock price , board of directors , etc .
) put it all together , identify as many places you can apply individual attention to , and follow through .
Simply knowing what will come up during an interview , people who will be mentioned , technologies in play , business model , locations , all will define the nature of the conversation.If you are able to interview , and things go well , leave something behind for them to remember you by - some printed material that demonstrates your capabilities .
Pretty-print some clean , well documented code , some charts , a CD-R with a descriptive label , something someone will look at on their desk and bring about internal dialog about your prowess and apparent " sureness " in capability and the minimal risk presented by selecting you.Bottom line : nobody is going to come up and tap you on the shoulder .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's no grizzled, cigar smoking boss behind the scenes, like in a boxing hero story.
Nobody (especially?
) - not even the "Director" who is (supposedly) "in charge" of things at your Dream Job (TM) is able to judge you like your professors have evaluated and coached you.
That's their job.They don't know what questions to ask to provoke the response you really want to give.
The companies you're trying to get a job with are forever attempting to mitigate risk, often preempting other activities.
Assure them you are a shoe-in, an absolute Perfect Fit (TM) beyond compare.Your CV/Resume and cover letter are your key, and usually your only hope.
If you have the benefit of recruiter calling you, even better, because they will Do Anything (TM) to get you in - all they care about is how well you stack up against the requirements of the opening.Use the resume/cover letter process to your advantage: probe for any/all information (stock price, board of directors, etc.
) put it all together, identify as many places you can apply individual attention to, and follow through.
Simply knowing what will come up during an interview, people who will be mentioned, technologies in play, business model, locations, all will define the nature of the conversation.If you are able to interview, and things go well, leave something behind for them to remember you by - some printed material that demonstrates your capabilities.
Pretty-print some clean, well documented code, some charts, a CD-R with a descriptive label, something someone will look at on their desk and bring about internal dialog about your prowess and apparent "sureness" in capability and the minimal risk presented by selecting you.Bottom line: nobody is going to come up and tap you on the shoulder.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650214</id>
	<title>show off your programming skills</title>
	<author>deander2</author>
	<datestamp>1269770340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>apply for the google summer of code project.  looks great on the resume.</p><p>also, do virtually anything public programming related.  write a small open source utility.  or a new feature in an existing open source app.  or a free app for a cell phone.  (100k downloads isn't that hard, and looks good to business folk)</p><p>i've been on the hiring side of fresh meat devs several times now.  literally anything that shows you can code in a reasonable, organized fashion will put you at the top of the list.</p><p>btw, i hope the html link reference was a joke.  =P</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>apply for the google summer of code project .
looks great on the resume.also , do virtually anything public programming related .
write a small open source utility .
or a new feature in an existing open source app .
or a free app for a cell phone .
( 100k downloads is n't that hard , and looks good to business folk ) i 've been on the hiring side of fresh meat devs several times now .
literally anything that shows you can code in a reasonable , organized fashion will put you at the top of the list.btw , i hope the html link reference was a joke .
= P</tokentext>
<sentencetext>apply for the google summer of code project.
looks great on the resume.also, do virtually anything public programming related.
write a small open source utility.
or a new feature in an existing open source app.
or a free app for a cell phone.
(100k downloads isn't that hard, and looks good to business folk)i've been on the hiring side of fresh meat devs several times now.
literally anything that shows you can code in a reasonable, organized fashion will put you at the top of the list.btw, i hope the html link reference was a joke.
=P</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652078</id>
	<title>show off your skills</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269784620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The best thing you can do is produce your own code that you can show them. Something you have spent a lot of your own time on and shows a number of different concepts. A previous commenter said contribute to an open source project which should be just as good. My brother produced his own 3D engine (a few hundred hours of work), it got him a intermediate level job at a startup game developer. He is now a senior programmer just two years later. He never went through an agency either, just go straight to the company. I managed to get a graduate position myself, I offered to show code I produced in my own time, for that I got the job and they didn't even ask to see it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The best thing you can do is produce your own code that you can show them .
Something you have spent a lot of your own time on and shows a number of different concepts .
A previous commenter said contribute to an open source project which should be just as good .
My brother produced his own 3D engine ( a few hundred hours of work ) , it got him a intermediate level job at a startup game developer .
He is now a senior programmer just two years later .
He never went through an agency either , just go straight to the company .
I managed to get a graduate position myself , I offered to show code I produced in my own time , for that I got the job and they did n't even ask to see it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The best thing you can do is produce your own code that you can show them.
Something you have spent a lot of your own time on and shows a number of different concepts.
A previous commenter said contribute to an open source project which should be just as good.
My brother produced his own 3D engine (a few hundred hours of work), it got him a intermediate level job at a startup game developer.
He is now a senior programmer just two years later.
He never went through an agency either, just go straight to the company.
I managed to get a graduate position myself, I offered to show code I produced in my own time, for that I got the job and they didn't even ask to see it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31656160</id>
	<title>Why employers hire employees</title>
	<author>MasterOfGoingFaster</author>
	<datestamp>1269873240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We hire people to solve problems.  Somebody who owns the problem figures out they need a warm body to solve it.  They spec the position and ask HR for a few applicants.</p><p>HR does not hire - they reject.  For the 5 candidates, they have about 50 to 500 resumes to go through.  Thus they look for any reason to reject the resume.  When they get down to about 20, they pick the best 10 and submit them to the manager. The manager selects 5 of the 10 that are of interest.  The interview process begins. Thus sending resumes nets you a 2\% - 0.2\% chance.  Does this match your experience?</p><p>But you can bypass the system.  Find the company you want to work for.  Learn what they do, and what problems they have.  Identify a problem you can solve.  Find the manager that owns that problem. Contact them (best in person) and show them that you know the company, the problem, and show how you can solve it. If you nail it, the manager takes you to HR and tells them to hire you.</p><p>I kid you not - this has worked for me several times.  I never worry about getting a job, no matter how bad the economy is.</p><p>Read the book "What color is your Parachute" if you need a step-by-step guide.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We hire people to solve problems .
Somebody who owns the problem figures out they need a warm body to solve it .
They spec the position and ask HR for a few applicants.HR does not hire - they reject .
For the 5 candidates , they have about 50 to 500 resumes to go through .
Thus they look for any reason to reject the resume .
When they get down to about 20 , they pick the best 10 and submit them to the manager .
The manager selects 5 of the 10 that are of interest .
The interview process begins .
Thus sending resumes nets you a 2 \ % - 0.2 \ % chance .
Does this match your experience ? But you can bypass the system .
Find the company you want to work for .
Learn what they do , and what problems they have .
Identify a problem you can solve .
Find the manager that owns that problem .
Contact them ( best in person ) and show them that you know the company , the problem , and show how you can solve it .
If you nail it , the manager takes you to HR and tells them to hire you.I kid you not - this has worked for me several times .
I never worry about getting a job , no matter how bad the economy is.Read the book " What color is your Parachute " if you need a step-by-step guide .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We hire people to solve problems.
Somebody who owns the problem figures out they need a warm body to solve it.
They spec the position and ask HR for a few applicants.HR does not hire - they reject.
For the 5 candidates, they have about 50 to 500 resumes to go through.
Thus they look for any reason to reject the resume.
When they get down to about 20, they pick the best 10 and submit them to the manager.
The manager selects 5 of the 10 that are of interest.
The interview process begins.
Thus sending resumes nets you a 2\% - 0.2\% chance.
Does this match your experience?But you can bypass the system.
Find the company you want to work for.
Learn what they do, and what problems they have.
Identify a problem you can solve.
Find the manager that owns that problem.
Contact them (best in person) and show them that you know the company, the problem, and show how you can solve it.
If you nail it, the manager takes you to HR and tells them to hire you.I kid you not - this has worked for me several times.
I never worry about getting a job, no matter how bad the economy is.Read the book "What color is your Parachute" if you need a step-by-step guide.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650986</id>
	<title>Re:Apply</title>
	<author>Ephemeriis</author>
	<datestamp>1269775200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>You are not going to get a 'good job' because there are FAR FAR FAR more people out there looking for those jobs right now with years of 'experience' on paper that you don't have.</p></div><p>I didn't see the OP say anything about a "good job."  Sounded to me like he was looking for an entry-level position.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You are not going to get a 'good job ' because there are FAR FAR FAR more people out there looking for those jobs right now with years of 'experience ' on paper that you do n't have.I did n't see the OP say anything about a " good job .
" Sounded to me like he was looking for an entry-level position .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are not going to get a 'good job' because there are FAR FAR FAR more people out there looking for those jobs right now with years of 'experience' on paper that you don't have.I didn't see the OP say anything about a "good job.
"  Sounded to me like he was looking for an entry-level position.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650362</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651444</id>
	<title>HTML is not programming</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269778740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I can program! (See how I put that link in?)</p></div><p>I hope that was a joke, otherwise no wonder you're not having any luck. Text mark-up is not programming. Not even close.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I can program !
( See how I put that link in ?
) I hope that was a joke , otherwise no wonder you 're not having any luck .
Text mark-up is not programming .
Not even close .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can program!
(See how I put that link in?
)I hope that was a joke, otherwise no wonder you're not having any luck.
Text mark-up is not programming.
Not even close.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651772</id>
	<title>Re:show off your programming skills</title>
	<author>Trepidity</author>
	<datestamp>1269781620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Do you really think GSoC alumni generally have trouble getting jobs? So far I've never heard of that. If anything, Google <i>themselves</i> hire lots of them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do you really think GSoC alumni generally have trouble getting jobs ?
So far I 've never heard of that .
If anything , Google themselves hire lots of them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Do you really think GSoC alumni generally have trouble getting jobs?
So far I've never heard of that.
If anything, Google themselves hire lots of them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650518</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31657252</id>
	<title>Re:To that I'll add</title>
	<author>HeckRuler</author>
	<datestamp>1269878040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>can't even write a simple piece of 2 way matching code in COBOL let alone in SQL or C++.</p> </div><p>Protip: Don't imply that SQL or C++ is difficult, or that COBOL exists. Unless, you know, you're being hired as a COBOL developer.<br> <br>
I strongly believe that there are two paths that programmers need to experience:<br>
Building something from scratch, and gluing pre-made tools together. Both are important skills.<br>
If every time you sit down and re-make the wheel for each job, you're slow.<br>
If you can't code the basics, you'll never use the tools in the right way.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>ca n't even write a simple piece of 2 way matching code in COBOL let alone in SQL or C + + .
Protip : Do n't imply that SQL or C + + is difficult , or that COBOL exists .
Unless , you know , you 're being hired as a COBOL developer .
I strongly believe that there are two paths that programmers need to experience : Building something from scratch , and gluing pre-made tools together .
Both are important skills .
If every time you sit down and re-make the wheel for each job , you 're slow .
If you ca n't code the basics , you 'll never use the tools in the right way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>can't even write a simple piece of 2 way matching code in COBOL let alone in SQL or C++.
Protip: Don't imply that SQL or C++ is difficult, or that COBOL exists.
Unless, you know, you're being hired as a COBOL developer.
I strongly believe that there are two paths that programmers need to experience:
Building something from scratch, and gluing pre-made tools together.
Both are important skills.
If every time you sit down and re-make the wheel for each job, you're slow.
If you can't code the basics, you'll never use the tools in the right way.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31655824</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650396</id>
	<title>Resume alone will not do it</title>
	<author>Bork</author>
	<datestamp>1269771480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Social engineering.  My last three jobs were obtained through knowing someone on the inside that help me in the door.  Using only your resume will result in it landing on a pile along with the 300 others.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Social engineering .
My last three jobs were obtained through knowing someone on the inside that help me in the door .
Using only your resume will result in it landing on a pile along with the 300 others .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Social engineering.
My last three jobs were obtained through knowing someone on the inside that help me in the door.
Using only your resume will result in it landing on a pile along with the 300 others.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651360</id>
	<title>Job Offer right here....</title>
	<author>Joviex</author>
	<datestamp>1269778260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I am hiring. Seriously.

<a href="http://tbe.taleo.net/NA5/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=MTVNETWORKS&amp;cws=1&amp;rid=207" title="taleo.net" rel="nofollow">http://tbe.taleo.net/NA5/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=MTVNETWORKS&amp;cws=1&amp;rid=207</a> [taleo.net]

If you even come close to those sets of skills listed, you will get considered.

Honestly, I need someone who can code, yes, but is also hard working and willing to be part of a team, not a lone gunman.  If you have ego or attitude, don't apply. If you can at least do python/c++ or C# don't hesistate to apply.

Is that entry level opportunity enough for you?

Cheers.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I am hiring .
Seriously . http : //tbe.taleo.net/NA5/ats/careers/requisition.jsp ? org = MTVNETWORKS&amp;cws = 1&amp;rid = 207 [ taleo.net ] If you even come close to those sets of skills listed , you will get considered .
Honestly , I need someone who can code , yes , but is also hard working and willing to be part of a team , not a lone gunman .
If you have ego or attitude , do n't apply .
If you can at least do python/c + + or C # do n't hesistate to apply .
Is that entry level opportunity enough for you ?
Cheers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am hiring.
Seriously.

http://tbe.taleo.net/NA5/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=MTVNETWORKS&amp;cws=1&amp;rid=207 [taleo.net]

If you even come close to those sets of skills listed, you will get considered.
Honestly, I need someone who can code, yes, but is also hard working and willing to be part of a team, not a lone gunman.
If you have ego or attitude, don't apply.
If you can at least do python/c++ or C# don't hesistate to apply.
Is that entry level opportunity enough for you?
Cheers.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650640</id>
	<title>Re:An internship</title>
	<author>Korin43</author>
	<datestamp>1269773160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yes, except there's only around two internships available for the thousand people in your class.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , except there 's only around two internships available for the thousand people in your class .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, except there's only around two internships available for the thousand people in your class.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650326</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650678</id>
	<title>Re:Apply</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269773520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are a lot of job that put a cap on the years of experience.  e.g. They explicitly say 3 (or 5) to 7 years of experience, so having a 20 years of experience doesn't necessarily mean an advantage these days.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are a lot of job that put a cap on the years of experience .
e.g. They explicitly say 3 ( or 5 ) to 7 years of experience , so having a 20 years of experience does n't necessarily mean an advantage these days .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are a lot of job that put a cap on the years of experience.
e.g. They explicitly say 3 (or 5) to 7 years of experience, so having a 20 years of experience doesn't necessarily mean an advantage these days.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650362</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651468</id>
	<title>Re:Apply</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269778920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The first thing your first job is going to do is break down all the bullshit you got fed in school and introduce you to the realities of real world programming.</p></div><p>Which are the bad coding/design practices of people who have stopped questioning their method.</p><p>I've seen this line of reasoning far too many times, and I can confirm it's just concealed arrogance coming from a supposedly authoritative source.</p><p>The people with dozens of years of experience in the field who bash on "school stuff" usually are simply bad engineers. Not being able to normalize a database, not being able to distinguish between the architectural layers of an application, or just not having been able to grok object oriented programming after years of "experience in the field" \_does\_ make you a bad programmer, even with 100 years of expertise (all examples coming from the real world).</p><p>Also, these people are the least likely to accept and incorporate new technologies. And when I say new i mean new for them: I knew a guy who thought version control systems were "unusable".</p><p>Yes, he had 20+ years of experience.</p><p>Purported efficiency is the second most common excuse I've heard for these abominations. Number one is, you guessed it: "I've got XP".</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The first thing your first job is going to do is break down all the bullshit you got fed in school and introduce you to the realities of real world programming.Which are the bad coding/design practices of people who have stopped questioning their method.I 've seen this line of reasoning far too many times , and I can confirm it 's just concealed arrogance coming from a supposedly authoritative source.The people with dozens of years of experience in the field who bash on " school stuff " usually are simply bad engineers .
Not being able to normalize a database , not being able to distinguish between the architectural layers of an application , or just not having been able to grok object oriented programming after years of " experience in the field " \ _does \ _ make you a bad programmer , even with 100 years of expertise ( all examples coming from the real world ) .Also , these people are the least likely to accept and incorporate new technologies .
And when I say new i mean new for them : I knew a guy who thought version control systems were " unusable " .Yes , he had 20 + years of experience.Purported efficiency is the second most common excuse I 've heard for these abominations .
Number one is , you guessed it : " I 've got XP " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The first thing your first job is going to do is break down all the bullshit you got fed in school and introduce you to the realities of real world programming.Which are the bad coding/design practices of people who have stopped questioning their method.I've seen this line of reasoning far too many times, and I can confirm it's just concealed arrogance coming from a supposedly authoritative source.The people with dozens of years of experience in the field who bash on "school stuff" usually are simply bad engineers.
Not being able to normalize a database, not being able to distinguish between the architectural layers of an application, or just not having been able to grok object oriented programming after years of "experience in the field" \_does\_ make you a bad programmer, even with 100 years of expertise (all examples coming from the real world).Also, these people are the least likely to accept and incorporate new technologies.
And when I say new i mean new for them: I knew a guy who thought version control systems were "unusable".Yes, he had 20+ years of experience.Purported efficiency is the second most common excuse I've heard for these abominations.
Number one is, you guessed it: "I've got XP".
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650362</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650338</id>
	<title>Re:show off your programming skills</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269771000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm sick and tired of canned "write open source" replies like this on Slashdot. I'm not saying you're wrong, let me be clear. It's just such a clich&#233; response.</p><p>Breaking through the HR firewall is nothing special to computer-related jobs. This is universal. Therefore, be wary of this canned response, as it doesn't take much insight into your situation to say "do more work to show you can do more work."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm sick and tired of canned " write open source " replies like this on Slashdot .
I 'm not saying you 're wrong , let me be clear .
It 's just such a clich   response.Breaking through the HR firewall is nothing special to computer-related jobs .
This is universal .
Therefore , be wary of this canned response , as it does n't take much insight into your situation to say " do more work to show you can do more work .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm sick and tired of canned "write open source" replies like this on Slashdot.
I'm not saying you're wrong, let me be clear.
It's just such a cliché response.Breaking through the HR firewall is nothing special to computer-related jobs.
This is universal.
Therefore, be wary of this canned response, as it doesn't take much insight into your situation to say "do more work to show you can do more work.
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650214</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31665854</id>
	<title>Build a Job!</title>
	<author>rhadc</author>
	<datestamp>1269877620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Over the last twelve years, I've worked in a variety of computing roles, from very early in the support process to "architecture" roles, as well as some software development roles.  During that time, I have bemoaned my bad timing as a "late to the game", especially during the dot com bust.  But the provided me with a smaller, more diverse set of opportunities that have ultimately led to better perspective and a more attractive resume.  I finished the college degree that I started before the bust while I consulted for small businesses.  During that time I acted as an 'IT Guy' while also pursuing problem solving opportunities that only a programmer could complete.  I'll not trouble you with more, except to give you some bullet-form advice.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; - Expect continuous learning, and be willing to do it on your off time.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; - Differentiate yourself somehow.  While having a perspective on a broad range of topics, be deep in some.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; - Look to small-to-medium sized businesses, and don't be afraid of the approach.  Play the numbers, 10 might not want you, but the 11th might.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I can't stress this enough.  The small and medium sized companies can't always afford services from the Oracles and IBMs of the world.  They are stuck buying off-the-shelf solutions that half fit their needs.  Your niche, if you choose to take it, is the guy who can provide higher-end solutions for lower-end prices.  They can spend 2-10k on you, but the licensing for software alone can eliminate the complex off-the-shelf products.  The custom solutions are for your resume, the low-end pay will get you by, and in the long run, you'll have seen the entrepreneurial side of things.  Also, understand that these companies are often run by individual owners who can make the decision without a committee or HR department.  You play to their own feelings of value-for-the-dollar.  Example:  a customer of mine needed custom reports that his vendor wouldn't provide him.  I reverse-engineered the database and built the reports.  Build trust - I said it would take 2 weeks, it took 3.  Charge for 2, comp one.  I was first pick for the next service.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; - Don't expect long-term employment right now, but make try to make the short-term work noteworthy.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; - Value certifications, especially the college degree.  Shrug off the naysayers.  In easy job markets, they don't mean much, but in hard ones, they are what keeps you "in the running" against your competition.  Accrue these any way you can.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; - Know IP.  IPv4, IPv6.  Simply being able to subnet puts you in a higher tier.  Do it.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; - Get an idea of what's ahead.  Convergence is a big deal.  If you have free time, learn to build apps for iPhone, Android, etc.  This is going to be a huge area with lots of opportunity.  If you can build these inexpensively, there are companies that will pay for them.  "I can build you a working app for $10k" looks like a great deal for many companies.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; - Forget the discouraging responses to this thread.  The truth is that competent technology folks are NOT everywhere.  Be a good one and you'll have no problem, at least in the next economic cycle.</p><p>Best of luck!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Over the last twelve years , I 've worked in a variety of computing roles , from very early in the support process to " architecture " roles , as well as some software development roles .
During that time , I have bemoaned my bad timing as a " late to the game " , especially during the dot com bust .
But the provided me with a smaller , more diverse set of opportunities that have ultimately led to better perspective and a more attractive resume .
I finished the college degree that I started before the bust while I consulted for small businesses .
During that time I acted as an 'IT Guy ' while also pursuing problem solving opportunities that only a programmer could complete .
I 'll not trouble you with more , except to give you some bullet-form advice .
    - Expect continuous learning , and be willing to do it on your off time .
    - Differentiate yourself somehow .
While having a perspective on a broad range of topics , be deep in some .
    - Look to small-to-medium sized businesses , and do n't be afraid of the approach .
Play the numbers , 10 might not want you , but the 11th might .
            I ca n't stress this enough .
The small and medium sized companies ca n't always afford services from the Oracles and IBMs of the world .
They are stuck buying off-the-shelf solutions that half fit their needs .
Your niche , if you choose to take it , is the guy who can provide higher-end solutions for lower-end prices .
They can spend 2-10k on you , but the licensing for software alone can eliminate the complex off-the-shelf products .
The custom solutions are for your resume , the low-end pay will get you by , and in the long run , you 'll have seen the entrepreneurial side of things .
Also , understand that these companies are often run by individual owners who can make the decision without a committee or HR department .
You play to their own feelings of value-for-the-dollar .
Example : a customer of mine needed custom reports that his vendor would n't provide him .
I reverse-engineered the database and built the reports .
Build trust - I said it would take 2 weeks , it took 3 .
Charge for 2 , comp one .
I was first pick for the next service .
    - Do n't expect long-term employment right now , but make try to make the short-term work noteworthy .
    - Value certifications , especially the college degree .
Shrug off the naysayers .
In easy job markets , they do n't mean much , but in hard ones , they are what keeps you " in the running " against your competition .
Accrue these any way you can .
    - Know IP .
IPv4 , IPv6 .
Simply being able to subnet puts you in a higher tier .
Do it .
    - Get an idea of what 's ahead .
Convergence is a big deal .
If you have free time , learn to build apps for iPhone , Android , etc .
This is going to be a huge area with lots of opportunity .
If you can build these inexpensively , there are companies that will pay for them .
" I can build you a working app for $ 10k " looks like a great deal for many companies .
    - Forget the discouraging responses to this thread .
The truth is that competent technology folks are NOT everywhere .
Be a good one and you 'll have no problem , at least in the next economic cycle.Best of luck !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Over the last twelve years, I've worked in a variety of computing roles, from very early in the support process to "architecture" roles, as well as some software development roles.
During that time, I have bemoaned my bad timing as a "late to the game", especially during the dot com bust.
But the provided me with a smaller, more diverse set of opportunities that have ultimately led to better perspective and a more attractive resume.
I finished the college degree that I started before the bust while I consulted for small businesses.
During that time I acted as an 'IT Guy' while also pursuing problem solving opportunities that only a programmer could complete.
I'll not trouble you with more, except to give you some bullet-form advice.
    - Expect continuous learning, and be willing to do it on your off time.
    - Differentiate yourself somehow.
While having a perspective on a broad range of topics, be deep in some.
    - Look to small-to-medium sized businesses, and don't be afraid of the approach.
Play the numbers, 10 might not want you, but the 11th might.
            I can't stress this enough.
The small and medium sized companies can't always afford services from the Oracles and IBMs of the world.
They are stuck buying off-the-shelf solutions that half fit their needs.
Your niche, if you choose to take it, is the guy who can provide higher-end solutions for lower-end prices.
They can spend 2-10k on you, but the licensing for software alone can eliminate the complex off-the-shelf products.
The custom solutions are for your resume, the low-end pay will get you by, and in the long run, you'll have seen the entrepreneurial side of things.
Also, understand that these companies are often run by individual owners who can make the decision without a committee or HR department.
You play to their own feelings of value-for-the-dollar.
Example:  a customer of mine needed custom reports that his vendor wouldn't provide him.
I reverse-engineered the database and built the reports.
Build trust - I said it would take 2 weeks, it took 3.
Charge for 2, comp one.
I was first pick for the next service.
    - Don't expect long-term employment right now, but make try to make the short-term work noteworthy.
    - Value certifications, especially the college degree.
Shrug off the naysayers.
In easy job markets, they don't mean much, but in hard ones, they are what keeps you "in the running" against your competition.
Accrue these any way you can.
    - Know IP.
IPv4, IPv6.
Simply being able to subnet puts you in a higher tier.
Do it.
    - Get an idea of what's ahead.
Convergence is a big deal.
If you have free time, learn to build apps for iPhone, Android, etc.
This is going to be a huge area with lots of opportunity.
If you can build these inexpensively, there are companies that will pay for them.
"I can build you a working app for $10k" looks like a great deal for many companies.
    - Forget the discouraging responses to this thread.
The truth is that competent technology folks are NOT everywhere.
Be a good one and you'll have no problem, at least in the next economic cycle.Best of luck!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31655654</id>
	<title>Re:The sad fact is...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269869940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's a logical fallacy to put texas and tech-savvy and/or progressive in one sentence, unless it is a negation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's a logical fallacy to put texas and tech-savvy and/or progressive in one sentence , unless it is a negation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's a logical fallacy to put texas and tech-savvy and/or progressive in one sentence, unless it is a negation.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652460</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650664</id>
	<title>Re:show off your programming skills</title>
	<author>oldspewey</author>
	<datestamp>1269773400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>do virtually anything public programming related</p></div><p>Example: build a race of giant robots and program them to seek out and destroy any HR manager who turns down your resume.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>do virtually anything public programming relatedExample : build a race of giant robots and program them to seek out and destroy any HR manager who turns down your resume .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>do virtually anything public programming relatedExample: build a race of giant robots and program them to seek out and destroy any HR manager who turns down your resume.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650214</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31657368</id>
	<title>Re:Apply</title>
	<author>woodsrunner</author>
	<datestamp>1269878400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Here's a job looking for a fresh college grad:

<a href="http://cri.crinet.com/career430/SoftwareDeveloperEntryLevel" title="crinet.com">http://cri.crinet.com/career430/SoftwareDeveloperEntryLevel</a> [crinet.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>Here 's a job looking for a fresh college grad : http : //cri.crinet.com/career430/SoftwareDeveloperEntryLevel [ crinet.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here's a job looking for a fresh college grad:

http://cri.crinet.com/career430/SoftwareDeveloperEntryLevel [crinet.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650210</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650650</id>
	<title>Re:Apply</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269773220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A bit cynical... but mostly true.</p><p>I am still in college, and I was hired last week for a full-time position. I was lucky (or prudent) to gain programming experience through a 3 year internship in college.  If you don't have any relevant experience, as the parent post points out, you are really going to need to put together some demo code. I wouldn't consider anything less than 500 lines, which if you really can program, should only take you day or two. Try to make it as original and non-trivial as possible... Be sure to document the code well using whatever documentation tools there are for the language you are using.</p><p>Also, are you getting the basics right? Do you have a good resume? You should get some feedback from professionals if possible on it. Are you writing cover letters that explain what YOU can do for the company?  Be sure to tailor your resume/cover-letter to the job description; expect to spend 2-3 hours on each.</p><p>If you would like me to offer some feedback on your resume/cover-letter, I could do so. I've been able to help friends land interviews by doing this before.</p><p>Good luck, keep your chin up, expand you skills, and realize that you don't know jack.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A bit cynical... but mostly true.I am still in college , and I was hired last week for a full-time position .
I was lucky ( or prudent ) to gain programming experience through a 3 year internship in college .
If you do n't have any relevant experience , as the parent post points out , you are really going to need to put together some demo code .
I would n't consider anything less than 500 lines , which if you really can program , should only take you day or two .
Try to make it as original and non-trivial as possible... Be sure to document the code well using whatever documentation tools there are for the language you are using.Also , are you getting the basics right ?
Do you have a good resume ?
You should get some feedback from professionals if possible on it .
Are you writing cover letters that explain what YOU can do for the company ?
Be sure to tailor your resume/cover-letter to the job description ; expect to spend 2-3 hours on each.If you would like me to offer some feedback on your resume/cover-letter , I could do so .
I 've been able to help friends land interviews by doing this before.Good luck , keep your chin up , expand you skills , and realize that you do n't know jack .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A bit cynical... but mostly true.I am still in college, and I was hired last week for a full-time position.
I was lucky (or prudent) to gain programming experience through a 3 year internship in college.
If you don't have any relevant experience, as the parent post points out, you are really going to need to put together some demo code.
I wouldn't consider anything less than 500 lines, which if you really can program, should only take you day or two.
Try to make it as original and non-trivial as possible... Be sure to document the code well using whatever documentation tools there are for the language you are using.Also, are you getting the basics right?
Do you have a good resume?
You should get some feedback from professionals if possible on it.
Are you writing cover letters that explain what YOU can do for the company?
Be sure to tailor your resume/cover-letter to the job description; expect to spend 2-3 hours on each.If you would like me to offer some feedback on your resume/cover-letter, I could do so.
I've been able to help friends land interviews by doing this before.Good luck, keep your chin up, expand you skills, and realize that you don't know jack.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650362</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650518</id>
	<title>Re:show off your programming skills</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269772260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You don't seriously think anyone would hire the Google's kids?  The problem with them is not that they can't code (some of them can).  The problem is they are very unlikely to fit into any paid position.  A person is hired because they can set the self-goal of creating value for the enterprise and achieve that goal.  Someone who joins a vanity competition is interested in praise over value.  He is not gonna have cultural problems with the secrecy required in a competitive situation.  He is more likely be a liability than an asset.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You do n't seriously think anyone would hire the Google 's kids ?
The problem with them is not that they ca n't code ( some of them can ) .
The problem is they are very unlikely to fit into any paid position .
A person is hired because they can set the self-goal of creating value for the enterprise and achieve that goal .
Someone who joins a vanity competition is interested in praise over value .
He is not gon na have cultural problems with the secrecy required in a competitive situation .
He is more likely be a liability than an asset .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You don't seriously think anyone would hire the Google's kids?
The problem with them is not that they can't code (some of them can).
The problem is they are very unlikely to fit into any paid position.
A person is hired because they can set the self-goal of creating value for the enterprise and achieve that goal.
Someone who joins a vanity competition is interested in praise over value.
He is not gonna have cultural problems with the secrecy required in a competitive situation.
He is more likely be a liability than an asset.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650214</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652874</id>
	<title>My inbox is full of these...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269793320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>After careful consideration of your application and CV, we regret to inform that you have not been successful this time.<br>Your details have been stored in our database and we will get back to you if any job opportunities arise.<br>We wish you all the very best for your future and career.<br>Kind regards,<br>A wide range of HR team of various companies.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>After careful consideration of your application and CV , we regret to inform that you have not been successful this time.Your details have been stored in our database and we will get back to you if any job opportunities arise.We wish you all the very best for your future and career.Kind regards,A wide range of HR team of various companies .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>After careful consideration of your application and CV, we regret to inform that you have not been successful this time.Your details have been stored in our database and we will get back to you if any job opportunities arise.We wish you all the very best for your future and career.Kind regards,A wide range of HR team of various companies.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650846</id>
	<title>Huh</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269774420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've got about 10 years of professional dev experience and it seems that there are a fair number of jobs out there right now, at least in my geographic area.  I updated my resume out on Monster a few weeks ago just for housekeeping purposes and got a ton of e-mails from recruiters.  There's also a fair number of jobs out on the jobs sites.  Is it really that bad for entry level people right now?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've got about 10 years of professional dev experience and it seems that there are a fair number of jobs out there right now , at least in my geographic area .
I updated my resume out on Monster a few weeks ago just for housekeeping purposes and got a ton of e-mails from recruiters .
There 's also a fair number of jobs out on the jobs sites .
Is it really that bad for entry level people right now ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've got about 10 years of professional dev experience and it seems that there are a fair number of jobs out there right now, at least in my geographic area.
I updated my resume out on Monster a few weeks ago just for housekeeping purposes and got a ton of e-mails from recruiters.
There's also a fair number of jobs out on the jobs sites.
Is it really that bad for entry level people right now?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31654876</id>
	<title>What color is your parachute?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269861360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Read "What Color Is Your Parachute?" by Richard Nelson Bolles.</p><p>Basically, you are probably not going to have much luck sending out hundreds of applications. If, however, you figure out exactly what you sort of work you want to do, and then talk to people who are doing that work, you might be able to make contact with someone who is in a position to create a job for you. If you happen to see a particular advertisement that fits you very well, contact the technical person to ask intelligent questions about the work. Do your research; don't waste their time with stupid questions.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Read " What Color Is Your Parachute ?
" by Richard Nelson Bolles.Basically , you are probably not going to have much luck sending out hundreds of applications .
If , however , you figure out exactly what you sort of work you want to do , and then talk to people who are doing that work , you might be able to make contact with someone who is in a position to create a job for you .
If you happen to see a particular advertisement that fits you very well , contact the technical person to ask intelligent questions about the work .
Do your research ; do n't waste their time with stupid questions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Read "What Color Is Your Parachute?
" by Richard Nelson Bolles.Basically, you are probably not going to have much luck sending out hundreds of applications.
If, however, you figure out exactly what you sort of work you want to do, and then talk to people who are doing that work, you might be able to make contact with someone who is in a position to create a job for you.
If you happen to see a particular advertisement that fits you very well, contact the technical person to ask intelligent questions about the work.
Do your research; don't waste their time with stupid questions.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652540</id>
	<title>Re:Friends and family</title>
	<author>endus</author>
	<datestamp>1269789180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Don't just take any job?  Do you realize how many college graduates who spent a lot of money on their degrees he's up against right now?  And how few jobs there are?  Now is not the time to be picky, my friend, the economic situation has shifted the balance of power solidly to the employers' side.  This is the economic climate where you get fucked on salary, sorry to say.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't just take any job ?
Do you realize how many college graduates who spent a lot of money on their degrees he 's up against right now ?
And how few jobs there are ?
Now is not the time to be picky , my friend , the economic situation has shifted the balance of power solidly to the employers ' side .
This is the economic climate where you get fucked on salary , sorry to say .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't just take any job?
Do you realize how many college graduates who spent a lot of money on their degrees he's up against right now?
And how few jobs there are?
Now is not the time to be picky, my friend, the economic situation has shifted the balance of power solidly to the employers' side.
This is the economic climate where you get fucked on salary, sorry to say.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650368</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651428</id>
	<title>Natural Selection</title>
	<author>PerZon</author>
	<datestamp>1269778620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Advertise a job similar to the field your trying to gain entry in.  select the best cover letter + resume from the submissions and use them for yourself.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Advertise a job similar to the field your trying to gain entry in .
select the best cover letter + resume from the submissions and use them for yourself .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Advertise a job similar to the field your trying to gain entry in.
select the best cover letter + resume from the submissions and use them for yourself.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31659386</id>
	<title>Re:Friends and family</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269886980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>if you are measuring the worth of your education purely in money, apparently you have learned nothing</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>if you are measuring the worth of your education purely in money , apparently you have learned nothing</tokentext>
<sentencetext>if you are measuring the worth of your education purely in money, apparently you have learned nothing</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650368</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31655286</id>
	<title>economic crisis</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269866700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We live amidst the most devastating capitalist crisis of all time. The economy has come to a halt, and you expect to land a job?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We live amidst the most devastating capitalist crisis of all time .
The economy has come to a halt , and you expect to land a job ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We live amidst the most devastating capitalist crisis of all time.
The economy has come to a halt, and you expect to land a job?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650774</id>
	<title>Re:The sad fact is...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269774060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It also helps to have nice tits.</p><p>Many studies have shown that nice tits make mostly male teams work twice as hard in the naive view that they might get access to said tits.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It also helps to have nice tits.Many studies have shown that nice tits make mostly male teams work twice as hard in the naive view that they might get access to said tits .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It also helps to have nice tits.Many studies have shown that nice tits make mostly male teams work twice as hard in the naive view that they might get access to said tits.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650242</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650866</id>
	<title>Re:The sad fact is...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269774540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>agreed. companies, both start-up and established, recruit heavily at your Stanfords/MIT/U-Mich/U-Illinois/etc. They usually have budget specifically for finding candidates from good schools.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>agreed .
companies , both start-up and established , recruit heavily at your Stanfords/MIT/U-Mich/U-Illinois/etc .
They usually have budget specifically for finding candidates from good schools .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>agreed.
companies, both start-up and established, recruit heavily at your Stanfords/MIT/U-Mich/U-Illinois/etc.
They usually have budget specifically for finding candidates from good schools.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650242</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650990</id>
	<title>Novel Idea</title>
	<author>thatskinnyguy</author>
	<datestamp>1269775260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I hand HR my resume. I hand my prospective future boss the resume and the source code for it in the language the job is for with documentation.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I hand HR my resume .
I hand my prospective future boss the resume and the source code for it in the language the job is for with documentation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I hand HR my resume.
I hand my prospective future boss the resume and the source code for it in the language the job is for with documentation.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31655448</id>
	<title>Many things go into landing a job</title>
	<author>Uzik2</author>
	<datestamp>1269868500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>* Right now there are jobs for low skill levels and high skill levels. In the middle is tough.<br>* Review your resume. This is what they will look at before deciding to interview you. Ask friends to read it and critique it. Read web sites about effective resume writing.<br>* Work on open source side projects that interest you (and look good on a resume). You will gain experience and have something to show you aren't afraid of work and are interested in your profession. If you're off playing a game with a ball, wasting time on WOW, etc. you're doing nothing that will help your career.<br>* writing to slashdot was a good idea</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>* Right now there are jobs for low skill levels and high skill levels .
In the middle is tough .
* Review your resume .
This is what they will look at before deciding to interview you .
Ask friends to read it and critique it .
Read web sites about effective resume writing .
* Work on open source side projects that interest you ( and look good on a resume ) .
You will gain experience and have something to show you are n't afraid of work and are interested in your profession .
If you 're off playing a game with a ball , wasting time on WOW , etc .
you 're doing nothing that will help your career .
* writing to slashdot was a good idea</tokentext>
<sentencetext>* Right now there are jobs for low skill levels and high skill levels.
In the middle is tough.
* Review your resume.
This is what they will look at before deciding to interview you.
Ask friends to read it and critique it.
Read web sites about effective resume writing.
* Work on open source side projects that interest you (and look good on a resume).
You will gain experience and have something to show you aren't afraid of work and are interested in your profession.
If you're off playing a game with a ball, wasting time on WOW, etc.
you're doing nothing that will help your career.
* writing to slashdot was a good idea</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651108</id>
	<title>*Not* your code projects</title>
	<author>Javaman59</author>
	<datestamp>1269776160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Lots of people are telling you to keep programming, and build a portfolio of interesting projects.</p><p>That's reasonable advice, but it misses the most important thing...</p><p> <b>Get a job - any job</b> </p><p>When an employer get's your resume, and sees that you are currently employed at Walmart, or McDonalds, or gardening for the local council, that will make a much better impression than "working at home on an Open Source project". This is also a good risk mitigation strategy - it keeps you busy, and earning money, in case it takes you a long time to get a programming job. It is also good for your self confidence, and health.</p><p>If you also do a code project while you are working, then you will really impress employers</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Lots of people are telling you to keep programming , and build a portfolio of interesting projects.That 's reasonable advice , but it misses the most important thing... Get a job - any job When an employer get 's your resume , and sees that you are currently employed at Walmart , or McDonalds , or gardening for the local council , that will make a much better impression than " working at home on an Open Source project " .
This is also a good risk mitigation strategy - it keeps you busy , and earning money , in case it takes you a long time to get a programming job .
It is also good for your self confidence , and health.If you also do a code project while you are working , then you will really impress employers</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Lots of people are telling you to keep programming, and build a portfolio of interesting projects.That's reasonable advice, but it misses the most important thing... Get a job - any job When an employer get's your resume, and sees that you are currently employed at Walmart, or McDonalds, or gardening for the local council, that will make a much better impression than "working at home on an Open Source project".
This is also a good risk mitigation strategy - it keeps you busy, and earning money, in case it takes you a long time to get a programming job.
It is also good for your self confidence, and health.If you also do a code project while you are working, then you will really impress employers</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651744</id>
	<title>Go to the work</title>
	<author>Ralph Spoilsport</author>
	<datestamp>1269781320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Do not expect the work to come to you. If the work is in Silicon Valley, go there. If it is in New York, go there. If it is fucking Calcutta, go there.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Do not expect the work to come to you .
If the work is in Silicon Valley , go there .
If it is in New York , go there .
If it is fucking Calcutta , go there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Do not expect the work to come to you.
If the work is in Silicon Valley, go there.
If it is in New York, go there.
If it is fucking Calcutta, go there.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651088</id>
	<title>when all else fails</title>
	<author>PerZon</author>
	<datestamp>1269775980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ive been trying for the past 6 weeks to land a job in a new city, I have 13 years experience and have only just recently started doing an online certification.  Ive tried a few different approaches but I have been told endless times that you cant be 'different'.  Bosses don't like different, but seeing as I have had no luck at all trying to fit myself into the mold of the masses I am left with no other option.</p><p>So no more wasting time with boring cover letters. I will simply state 'because I can do it better'.  Forget attaching a resume! After a potential employer has read a hundred before yours there is NOTHING you can do by the book to leave an impression.  Instead a doc file with a goatse pic should leave a permanent impression.<br>If this fails just walk in holding a kitten to a knife and demand to speak to the boss!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ive been trying for the past 6 weeks to land a job in a new city , I have 13 years experience and have only just recently started doing an online certification .
Ive tried a few different approaches but I have been told endless times that you cant be 'different' .
Bosses do n't like different , but seeing as I have had no luck at all trying to fit myself into the mold of the masses I am left with no other option.So no more wasting time with boring cover letters .
I will simply state 'because I can do it better' .
Forget attaching a resume !
After a potential employer has read a hundred before yours there is NOTHING you can do by the book to leave an impression .
Instead a doc file with a goatse pic should leave a permanent impression.If this fails just walk in holding a kitten to a knife and demand to speak to the boss !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ive been trying for the past 6 weeks to land a job in a new city, I have 13 years experience and have only just recently started doing an online certification.
Ive tried a few different approaches but I have been told endless times that you cant be 'different'.
Bosses don't like different, but seeing as I have had no luck at all trying to fit myself into the mold of the masses I am left with no other option.So no more wasting time with boring cover letters.
I will simply state 'because I can do it better'.
Forget attaching a resume!
After a potential employer has read a hundred before yours there is NOTHING you can do by the book to leave an impression.
Instead a doc file with a goatse pic should leave a permanent impression.If this fails just walk in holding a kitten to a knife and demand to speak to the boss!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652908</id>
	<title>Re:Missing something</title>
	<author>dudpixel</author>
	<datestamp>1269793860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>wow man, you're a genius.  I can just see a sysadmin allowing someone with no experience to help with PROGRAMMING stuff.  Remember, that was the job the OP was looking for?  kind of doesn't work with the example you gave.  Congrats on getting your internship btw, but probably not that helpful advice for this guy.</p><p>Yes, for sure, if you know the right people it can really help, but is it really his fault for not knowing the right people?</p><p>I'd agree with those who suggested contributing to an open source project.  Just one - should be enough.  Make it something you're interested in and even passionate about.  And give it your best work.</p><p>Secondly, +1 for personal contact.  Always follow up your resume with a phone call - as has been mentioned above.  Make sure whoever is hiring for the job knows who you are.  When they come to making a decision - you definitely want to be one of the people who they are thinking of.</p><p>Other than this, persist with it.  With the right attitude, you will get a job eventually.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>wow man , you 're a genius .
I can just see a sysadmin allowing someone with no experience to help with PROGRAMMING stuff .
Remember , that was the job the OP was looking for ?
kind of does n't work with the example you gave .
Congrats on getting your internship btw , but probably not that helpful advice for this guy.Yes , for sure , if you know the right people it can really help , but is it really his fault for not knowing the right people ? I 'd agree with those who suggested contributing to an open source project .
Just one - should be enough .
Make it something you 're interested in and even passionate about .
And give it your best work.Secondly , + 1 for personal contact .
Always follow up your resume with a phone call - as has been mentioned above .
Make sure whoever is hiring for the job knows who you are .
When they come to making a decision - you definitely want to be one of the people who they are thinking of.Other than this , persist with it .
With the right attitude , you will get a job eventually .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>wow man, you're a genius.
I can just see a sysadmin allowing someone with no experience to help with PROGRAMMING stuff.
Remember, that was the job the OP was looking for?
kind of doesn't work with the example you gave.
Congrats on getting your internship btw, but probably not that helpful advice for this guy.Yes, for sure, if you know the right people it can really help, but is it really his fault for not knowing the right people?I'd agree with those who suggested contributing to an open source project.
Just one - should be enough.
Make it something you're interested in and even passionate about.
And give it your best work.Secondly, +1 for personal contact.
Always follow up your resume with a phone call - as has been mentioned above.
Make sure whoever is hiring for the job knows who you are.
When they come to making a decision - you definitely want to be one of the people who they are thinking of.Other than this, persist with it.
With the right attitude, you will get a job eventually.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650206</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31655774</id>
	<title>Re:Apply</title>
	<author>SoothingMist</author>
	<datestamp>1269870900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Generally, I agree with BitZstream's post. Ungently put but it is true. As an industrial R&amp;D specialist I look for interns who can function on their own with just a bit of mentoring. If I already knew how to do something I would not need to hire an intern. The opportunity postings say as much. Rarely does more than one application arrive from a nation-wide posting. That tells me that by far most students do not have the right stuff. As an example of something that a new graduate needs is a publication or two in the peer-reviewed literature. That really stands out as an accomplishment since it means the student was part of an R&amp;D team as an undergraduate. Some schools accept students to their graduate program before the student earns the undergraduate degree and allows the student to take graduate-credit courses. That is another stand-out accomplishment. Doing what everyone else does is just commodity work that gets you nowhere.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Generally , I agree with BitZstream 's post .
Ungently put but it is true .
As an industrial R&amp;D specialist I look for interns who can function on their own with just a bit of mentoring .
If I already knew how to do something I would not need to hire an intern .
The opportunity postings say as much .
Rarely does more than one application arrive from a nation-wide posting .
That tells me that by far most students do not have the right stuff .
As an example of something that a new graduate needs is a publication or two in the peer-reviewed literature .
That really stands out as an accomplishment since it means the student was part of an R&amp;D team as an undergraduate .
Some schools accept students to their graduate program before the student earns the undergraduate degree and allows the student to take graduate-credit courses .
That is another stand-out accomplishment .
Doing what everyone else does is just commodity work that gets you nowhere .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Generally, I agree with BitZstream's post.
Ungently put but it is true.
As an industrial R&amp;D specialist I look for interns who can function on their own with just a bit of mentoring.
If I already knew how to do something I would not need to hire an intern.
The opportunity postings say as much.
Rarely does more than one application arrive from a nation-wide posting.
That tells me that by far most students do not have the right stuff.
As an example of something that a new graduate needs is a publication or two in the peer-reviewed literature.
That really stands out as an accomplishment since it means the student was part of an R&amp;D team as an undergraduate.
Some schools accept students to their graduate program before the student earns the undergraduate degree and allows the student to take graduate-credit courses.
That is another stand-out accomplishment.
Doing what everyone else does is just commodity work that gets you nowhere.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650362</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650278</id>
	<title>"Am I missing something?"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269770700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes. Why?</p><p>Are there alternatives to an "entry level job". It sounds limited...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes .
Why ? Are there alternatives to an " entry level job " .
It sounds limited.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes.
Why?Are there alternatives to an "entry level job".
It sounds limited...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652486</id>
	<title>It's not what you know...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269788760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's who you know.<br>The *best* way to get an entry-level job is have a friend on the inside that can recommend you for an opening.<br>The *best* way to get an executive-level job is to have an uncle on the inside that needs a yes man.  Ask your parents why they're not looking out for you!</p><p>Good luck kid, and feel free to drop my name during an interview. Chances are they've heard from me.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's who you know.The * best * way to get an entry-level job is have a friend on the inside that can recommend you for an opening.The * best * way to get an executive-level job is to have an uncle on the inside that needs a yes man .
Ask your parents why they 're not looking out for you ! Good luck kid , and feel free to drop my name during an interview .
Chances are they 've heard from me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's who you know.The *best* way to get an entry-level job is have a friend on the inside that can recommend you for an opening.The *best* way to get an executive-level job is to have an uncle on the inside that needs a yes man.
Ask your parents why they're not looking out for you!Good luck kid, and feel free to drop my name during an interview.
Chances are they've heard from me.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650638</id>
	<title>Do more than school - program on the side.</title>
	<author>filesiteguy</author>
	<datestamp>1269773100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm a manager for a large county (100,000 employees) and am in a medium department with 800 employees. I've hired nine programmers in the past two years. Seven of them were fresh out of college.  Oddly enough, all had CS degrees, though none had a clue about assembly or circuit design.<br><br>Of the seven 'beginning' programmers, all had done work on the side either as a self-held business or as contract work. I rejected every applicant who hadn't done some programming outside of class.<br><br>Two of my top programmers even had joined to enter a M$-sponsored contest for programming and had gone on to the finals.<br><br>In other words, show that you want to be a programmer and not just a student.<br><br>I noticed koreaman also mentioned nepotism - that works as well.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm a manager for a large county ( 100,000 employees ) and am in a medium department with 800 employees .
I 've hired nine programmers in the past two years .
Seven of them were fresh out of college .
Oddly enough , all had CS degrees , though none had a clue about assembly or circuit design.Of the seven 'beginning ' programmers , all had done work on the side either as a self-held business or as contract work .
I rejected every applicant who had n't done some programming outside of class.Two of my top programmers even had joined to enter a M $ -sponsored contest for programming and had gone on to the finals.In other words , show that you want to be a programmer and not just a student.I noticed koreaman also mentioned nepotism - that works as well .
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm a manager for a large county (100,000 employees) and am in a medium department with 800 employees.
I've hired nine programmers in the past two years.
Seven of them were fresh out of college.
Oddly enough, all had CS degrees, though none had a clue about assembly or circuit design.Of the seven 'beginning' programmers, all had done work on the side either as a self-held business or as contract work.
I rejected every applicant who hadn't done some programming outside of class.Two of my top programmers even had joined to enter a M$-sponsored contest for programming and had gone on to the finals.In other words, show that you want to be a programmer and not just a student.I noticed koreaman also mentioned nepotism - that works as well.
:)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650420</id>
	<title>Confused</title>
	<author>4pins</author>
	<datestamp>1269771660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>First, including a link doesn't make you a programmer.<br> <br>

Second, what are you graduating from (high school, technical college, university)?  With what kind of degree?<br> <br>

To directly address your question, most entry level positions require two years experience.  You need to figure out how to get that experience!<br> <br>

I graduated right before September 11, 2001 and wound up taking an IT support job where they needed some programing done as well.  It was a long haul (almost eight years of more and more development), however I just started my first senior developer position.  Everyone has to start somewhere!</htmltext>
<tokenext>First , including a link does n't make you a programmer .
Second , what are you graduating from ( high school , technical college , university ) ?
With what kind of degree ?
To directly address your question , most entry level positions require two years experience .
You need to figure out how to get that experience !
I graduated right before September 11 , 2001 and wound up taking an IT support job where they needed some programing done as well .
It was a long haul ( almost eight years of more and more development ) , however I just started my first senior developer position .
Everyone has to start somewhere !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First, including a link doesn't make you a programmer.
Second, what are you graduating from (high school, technical college, university)?
With what kind of degree?
To directly address your question, most entry level positions require two years experience.
You need to figure out how to get that experience!
I graduated right before September 11, 2001 and wound up taking an IT support job where they needed some programing done as well.
It was a long haul (almost eight years of more and more development), however I just started my first senior developer position.
Everyone has to start somewhere!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651002</id>
	<title>OK, a little advice</title>
	<author>RocketScientist</author>
	<datestamp>1269775260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>First, any company bigger than 20 people is going to have an HR person who is screening resumes.  That person has no technical background at all. They don't know a good programmer from a good accountant from a good coffeemaker.  What they do have is a buzzword bingo card. And they run through your resume, looking for the right buzzwords, and the ones they find get a checkmark, they add up the checkmarks and put the resume into one short stack, to send on to the manager that's actually hiring, and the big stack of rejects.</p><p>So you need to get a buzzword compliant resume.  If you know C# put that on there.  If you know SQL Server, or Oracle, or whatever else, put that on there. Do you know how to program microcontrollers?  Put that on there.  Break every convention you were taught in writing classes, and put a big list of all of the technologies you know using all the industry jargon you can.  This isn't to make you look like a smart insider.  This isn't for anyone's benefit but the little buzzword bingo player.  You should have a collection of a half dozen or so targeted resumes you can send out, each one tailored to a certain industry and technology set with appropriate buzzwords for each.</p><p>That sounds really really cynical.  It isn't.  It's absolute truth.  You must have the skills they're looking for, but more importantly they must be clearly presented somewhere so a receptionist (that's who did it at my first job) can figure it out.  When I was looking for a job getting out of school, I went fully buzzword compliant and that's what got me there.  Managers do not have time to go through 300 resumes to find the 5 people they want to interview for 2 positions.  They delegate that.  Delegation is what managers do.</p><p>Second, if you don't have the buzzwords (C#, Java,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.Net, SQL Server, etc) get them.  Find an internship.  If you're getting ready to graduate and you didn't do that, you screwed up.  Internships are how you get jobs.  Or summer jobs.  Or part time jobs. Or something where you can learn something practical in a real office environment.  You still have time.  Go pick up a "Learn C# in 30 days" book and figure it out well enough to write some code and make sure it's prominently displayed on  your resume.</p><p>Third, know your market.  If you tried to apply for a java programming job here in Kansas City, you'd be out of luck because Sprint's been laying off Java programmers by the bucketload.  But trying to get a job using C# or VB.Net or as an entry level systems person on Windows Server would be pretty easy.</p><p>Finally, just remember, it does get better.  The first job is the hard one to find.  The rest get easier as you meet people and develop contacts.  That's the key really.  After you do your first blind job hunt, you never have to do it again, because you'll know someone.  That means you need to build a reputation as someone who's really good at doing what they do while being extremely easy to work with and get along with.</p><p>I know it sucks, but really it's pretty much the last thing that sucks.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>First , any company bigger than 20 people is going to have an HR person who is screening resumes .
That person has no technical background at all .
They do n't know a good programmer from a good accountant from a good coffeemaker .
What they do have is a buzzword bingo card .
And they run through your resume , looking for the right buzzwords , and the ones they find get a checkmark , they add up the checkmarks and put the resume into one short stack , to send on to the manager that 's actually hiring , and the big stack of rejects.So you need to get a buzzword compliant resume .
If you know C # put that on there .
If you know SQL Server , or Oracle , or whatever else , put that on there .
Do you know how to program microcontrollers ?
Put that on there .
Break every convention you were taught in writing classes , and put a big list of all of the technologies you know using all the industry jargon you can .
This is n't to make you look like a smart insider .
This is n't for anyone 's benefit but the little buzzword bingo player .
You should have a collection of a half dozen or so targeted resumes you can send out , each one tailored to a certain industry and technology set with appropriate buzzwords for each.That sounds really really cynical .
It is n't .
It 's absolute truth .
You must have the skills they 're looking for , but more importantly they must be clearly presented somewhere so a receptionist ( that 's who did it at my first job ) can figure it out .
When I was looking for a job getting out of school , I went fully buzzword compliant and that 's what got me there .
Managers do not have time to go through 300 resumes to find the 5 people they want to interview for 2 positions .
They delegate that .
Delegation is what managers do.Second , if you do n't have the buzzwords ( C # , Java , .Net , SQL Server , etc ) get them .
Find an internship .
If you 're getting ready to graduate and you did n't do that , you screwed up .
Internships are how you get jobs .
Or summer jobs .
Or part time jobs .
Or something where you can learn something practical in a real office environment .
You still have time .
Go pick up a " Learn C # in 30 days " book and figure it out well enough to write some code and make sure it 's prominently displayed on your resume.Third , know your market .
If you tried to apply for a java programming job here in Kansas City , you 'd be out of luck because Sprint 's been laying off Java programmers by the bucketload .
But trying to get a job using C # or VB.Net or as an entry level systems person on Windows Server would be pretty easy.Finally , just remember , it does get better .
The first job is the hard one to find .
The rest get easier as you meet people and develop contacts .
That 's the key really .
After you do your first blind job hunt , you never have to do it again , because you 'll know someone .
That means you need to build a reputation as someone who 's really good at doing what they do while being extremely easy to work with and get along with.I know it sucks , but really it 's pretty much the last thing that sucks .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First, any company bigger than 20 people is going to have an HR person who is screening resumes.
That person has no technical background at all.
They don't know a good programmer from a good accountant from a good coffeemaker.
What they do have is a buzzword bingo card.
And they run through your resume, looking for the right buzzwords, and the ones they find get a checkmark, they add up the checkmarks and put the resume into one short stack, to send on to the manager that's actually hiring, and the big stack of rejects.So you need to get a buzzword compliant resume.
If you know C# put that on there.
If you know SQL Server, or Oracle, or whatever else, put that on there.
Do you know how to program microcontrollers?
Put that on there.
Break every convention you were taught in writing classes, and put a big list of all of the technologies you know using all the industry jargon you can.
This isn't to make you look like a smart insider.
This isn't for anyone's benefit but the little buzzword bingo player.
You should have a collection of a half dozen or so targeted resumes you can send out, each one tailored to a certain industry and technology set with appropriate buzzwords for each.That sounds really really cynical.
It isn't.
It's absolute truth.
You must have the skills they're looking for, but more importantly they must be clearly presented somewhere so a receptionist (that's who did it at my first job) can figure it out.
When I was looking for a job getting out of school, I went fully buzzword compliant and that's what got me there.
Managers do not have time to go through 300 resumes to find the 5 people they want to interview for 2 positions.
They delegate that.
Delegation is what managers do.Second, if you don't have the buzzwords (C#, Java, .Net, SQL Server, etc) get them.
Find an internship.
If you're getting ready to graduate and you didn't do that, you screwed up.
Internships are how you get jobs.
Or summer jobs.
Or part time jobs.
Or something where you can learn something practical in a real office environment.
You still have time.
Go pick up a "Learn C# in 30 days" book and figure it out well enough to write some code and make sure it's prominently displayed on  your resume.Third, know your market.
If you tried to apply for a java programming job here in Kansas City, you'd be out of luck because Sprint's been laying off Java programmers by the bucketload.
But trying to get a job using C# or VB.Net or as an entry level systems person on Windows Server would be pretty easy.Finally, just remember, it does get better.
The first job is the hard one to find.
The rest get easier as you meet people and develop contacts.
That's the key really.
After you do your first blind job hunt, you never have to do it again, because you'll know someone.
That means you need to build a reputation as someone who's really good at doing what they do while being extremely easy to work with and get along with.I know it sucks, but really it's pretty much the last thing that sucks.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651754</id>
	<title>Apply somewhere hiring: epic.com</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269781380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Unless bad grades and a bad resume are your problem, they are looking for great people all the time and have a very objective hiring process to find the best people.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Unless bad grades and a bad resume are your problem , they are looking for great people all the time and have a very objective hiring process to find the best people .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unless bad grades and a bad resume are your problem, they are looking for great people all the time and have a very objective hiring process to find the best people.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651342</id>
	<title>Re:It is not a great time</title>
	<author>lordlod</author>
	<datestamp>1269778080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Right now is a really hard time to try to get your foot in the door. As a manager, I posted for an entry level position and ended up with a ton of candidates with a strong background. I don't believe in the whole "overqualified" paradigm, so I ended up getting the best candidate -- over twelve years of experience pertinent to my business, glowing reviews from previous employers and excellent interpersonal skills.</p></div><p>You might not believe in overqualified but you now have someone who you are underpaying and is probably actively applying for jobs elsewhere.  As the job market improves they will certainly be looking elsewhere.  Especially if you are getting them to do the crappy work you would normally use a grad for.</p><p>I'm not saying you chose wrongly but you have to weigh up the cost of training and integrating them vs the amount of time they stick around.  Giving them a pay rise as the economy improves will probably improve that but you don't really want to do that if you needed an entry level person.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Right now is a really hard time to try to get your foot in the door .
As a manager , I posted for an entry level position and ended up with a ton of candidates with a strong background .
I do n't believe in the whole " overqualified " paradigm , so I ended up getting the best candidate -- over twelve years of experience pertinent to my business , glowing reviews from previous employers and excellent interpersonal skills.You might not believe in overqualified but you now have someone who you are underpaying and is probably actively applying for jobs elsewhere .
As the job market improves they will certainly be looking elsewhere .
Especially if you are getting them to do the crappy work you would normally use a grad for.I 'm not saying you chose wrongly but you have to weigh up the cost of training and integrating them vs the amount of time they stick around .
Giving them a pay rise as the economy improves will probably improve that but you do n't really want to do that if you needed an entry level person .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Right now is a really hard time to try to get your foot in the door.
As a manager, I posted for an entry level position and ended up with a ton of candidates with a strong background.
I don't believe in the whole "overqualified" paradigm, so I ended up getting the best candidate -- over twelve years of experience pertinent to my business, glowing reviews from previous employers and excellent interpersonal skills.You might not believe in overqualified but you now have someone who you are underpaying and is probably actively applying for jobs elsewhere.
As the job market improves they will certainly be looking elsewhere.
Especially if you are getting them to do the crappy work you would normally use a grad for.I'm not saying you chose wrongly but you have to weigh up the cost of training and integrating them vs the amount of time they stick around.
Giving them a pay rise as the economy improves will probably improve that but you don't really want to do that if you needed an entry level person.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650316</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31664190</id>
	<title>Re: Best Way To Land Entry-Level Job?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269867000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Find a job you really want, make sure you satisfy requirements, fight for it. Be persistent, sometimes it is not enough to apply once and it may not be enough to apply through their HR. Search linked-in, their directory etc., try to identify and talk to the hiring manager, this is the person who ultimately makes the decision (once in a while our candidates happen to show up at our office to make sure their applications make it to hiring managers). Have a proof of your expertise handy -- open source projects, popular articles, blogs, papers. Certify yourself in programming (brainbench.com, codility.com). Don't get discouraged if you don't get what you want the first time -- there is a large amount of luck in every recruitment. Getting a great job is a tough job.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Find a job you really want , make sure you satisfy requirements , fight for it .
Be persistent , sometimes it is not enough to apply once and it may not be enough to apply through their HR .
Search linked-in , their directory etc. , try to identify and talk to the hiring manager , this is the person who ultimately makes the decision ( once in a while our candidates happen to show up at our office to make sure their applications make it to hiring managers ) .
Have a proof of your expertise handy -- open source projects , popular articles , blogs , papers .
Certify yourself in programming ( brainbench.com , codility.com ) .
Do n't get discouraged if you do n't get what you want the first time -- there is a large amount of luck in every recruitment .
Getting a great job is a tough job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Find a job you really want, make sure you satisfy requirements, fight for it.
Be persistent, sometimes it is not enough to apply once and it may not be enough to apply through their HR.
Search linked-in, their directory etc., try to identify and talk to the hiring manager, this is the person who ultimately makes the decision (once in a while our candidates happen to show up at our office to make sure their applications make it to hiring managers).
Have a proof of your expertise handy -- open source projects, popular articles, blogs, papers.
Certify yourself in programming (brainbench.com, codility.com).
Don't get discouraged if you don't get what you want the first time -- there is a large amount of luck in every recruitment.
Getting a great job is a tough job.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650378</id>
	<title>Who ya know</title>
	<author>Rivalz</author>
	<datestamp>1269771360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I find that jobs are handed out in this order.</p><p>1) Kickback (If I Hire X will I be compensated?)<br>----<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; a)   |----- Family (Am I related to individual [Small form of kickback, sometimes hiring children of political people falls under this catagorey, nothing cuts through red tape like]<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; b)   |--------- Figurehead ( I've seen where people are hired just to be a figurehead ( Astronauts, Politicians, Former CEO's ect )</p><p>2) Circle of Friends (Nothing makes them feel better than hiring someone from their Alma mater, charity, ect.)<br>----</p><p>3) Indentured Servitude (Can I pay this kid to do the job what I spent filling up my yacht for my weekend getaway?)<br>----</p><p>4) The Shiny Turd ( I've got a double MBNA Frum Havard. I am Job. )<br>----<br>Lying lips sound the sweetest but when their kissing your ass its even better.</p><p>5) Needle In the Haystack ( This is you and me )<br>-----</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I find that jobs are handed out in this order.1 ) Kickback ( If I Hire X will I be compensated ?
) ----                     a ) | ----- Family ( Am I related to individual [ Small form of kickback , sometimes hiring children of political people falls under this catagorey , nothing cuts through red tape like ]                     b ) | --------- Figurehead ( I 've seen where people are hired just to be a figurehead ( Astronauts , Politicians , Former CEO 's ect ) 2 ) Circle of Friends ( Nothing makes them feel better than hiring someone from their Alma mater , charity , ect .
) ----3 ) Indentured Servitude ( Can I pay this kid to do the job what I spent filling up my yacht for my weekend getaway ?
) ----4 ) The Shiny Turd ( I 've got a double MBNA Frum Havard .
I am Job .
) ----Lying lips sound the sweetest but when their kissing your ass its even better.5 ) Needle In the Haystack ( This is you and me ) -----</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I find that jobs are handed out in this order.1) Kickback (If I Hire X will I be compensated?
)----
                    a)   |----- Family (Am I related to individual [Small form of kickback, sometimes hiring children of political people falls under this catagorey, nothing cuts through red tape like]
                    b)   |--------- Figurehead ( I've seen where people are hired just to be a figurehead ( Astronauts, Politicians, Former CEO's ect )2) Circle of Friends (Nothing makes them feel better than hiring someone from their Alma mater, charity, ect.
)----3) Indentured Servitude (Can I pay this kid to do the job what I spent filling up my yacht for my weekend getaway?
)----4) The Shiny Turd ( I've got a double MBNA Frum Havard.
I am Job.
)----Lying lips sound the sweetest but when their kissing your ass its even better.5) Needle In the Haystack ( This is you and me )-----</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650956</id>
	<title>Re:show off your programming skills</title>
	<author>ari\_j</author>
	<datestamp>1269775020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I don't know which is worse: Thinking that using italics is a link, thinking that using italics or an HTML link qualifies one as a programmer, or thinking that it was a funny joke to make.  Any one of these bodes ill for the submitter's career options.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't know which is worse : Thinking that using italics is a link , thinking that using italics or an HTML link qualifies one as a programmer , or thinking that it was a funny joke to make .
Any one of these bodes ill for the submitter 's career options .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't know which is worse: Thinking that using italics is a link, thinking that using italics or an HTML link qualifies one as a programmer, or thinking that it was a funny joke to make.
Any one of these bodes ill for the submitter's career options.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650214</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650530</id>
	<title>Good Luck with Small Companies</title>
	<author>elentiras</author>
	<datestamp>1269772380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>As someone with a degree from a reasonably well known school and 2-ish years of employment who is looking for a job yet again, I can say that the prospects for entry-level positions are generally dim.  Most of the so-called entry level positions that I see advertised -required- at least 3 years of experience.  The job market is such that they can make these kind of demands, at least in my region of the world.  In my admittedly limited experience, it is easier to land an interview with smaller companies.  They tend to want someone long-term and are more willing to train or let someone grow into their job.  The GE's and Time Warners of the world want someone with solid experience who can step into a development team today.  Some larger companies, IBM for example, have some good entry-level positions but only if you're willing to move halfway across the country.</htmltext>
<tokenext>As someone with a degree from a reasonably well known school and 2-ish years of employment who is looking for a job yet again , I can say that the prospects for entry-level positions are generally dim .
Most of the so-called entry level positions that I see advertised -required- at least 3 years of experience .
The job market is such that they can make these kind of demands , at least in my region of the world .
In my admittedly limited experience , it is easier to land an interview with smaller companies .
They tend to want someone long-term and are more willing to train or let someone grow into their job .
The GE 's and Time Warners of the world want someone with solid experience who can step into a development team today .
Some larger companies , IBM for example , have some good entry-level positions but only if you 're willing to move halfway across the country .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As someone with a degree from a reasonably well known school and 2-ish years of employment who is looking for a job yet again, I can say that the prospects for entry-level positions are generally dim.
Most of the so-called entry level positions that I see advertised -required- at least 3 years of experience.
The job market is such that they can make these kind of demands, at least in my region of the world.
In my admittedly limited experience, it is easier to land an interview with smaller companies.
They tend to want someone long-term and are more willing to train or let someone grow into their job.
The GE's and Time Warners of the world want someone with solid experience who can step into a development team today.
Some larger companies, IBM for example, have some good entry-level positions but only if you're willing to move halfway across the country.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650352</id>
	<title>Find your roadblock and get around it</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269771120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you are submitting resumes, and not getting any responses whatsoever, then it's likely there is something wrong with your resume (I had this particular problem when I was entry-level; I kept rewriting my resume until I finally got responses).<br> <br>
If you are only applying to big companies, that could be your problem.  There are lots of smaller companies around, and they are usually the ones that have trouble finding good programmers.  If you really are good, then keep tweaking your presentation until the people where you are applying can actually see that you are good. If you are not actually good, then your roadblock is that you are not good, and you should fix that.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you are submitting resumes , and not getting any responses whatsoever , then it 's likely there is something wrong with your resume ( I had this particular problem when I was entry-level ; I kept rewriting my resume until I finally got responses ) .
If you are only applying to big companies , that could be your problem .
There are lots of smaller companies around , and they are usually the ones that have trouble finding good programmers .
If you really are good , then keep tweaking your presentation until the people where you are applying can actually see that you are good .
If you are not actually good , then your roadblock is that you are not good , and you should fix that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you are submitting resumes, and not getting any responses whatsoever, then it's likely there is something wrong with your resume (I had this particular problem when I was entry-level; I kept rewriting my resume until I finally got responses).
If you are only applying to big companies, that could be your problem.
There are lots of smaller companies around, and they are usually the ones that have trouble finding good programmers.
If you really are good, then keep tweaking your presentation until the people where you are applying can actually see that you are good.
If you are not actually good, then your roadblock is that you are not good, and you should fix that.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650430</id>
	<title>lack of programmers?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269771720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When I hear about the lack of programmers, I can't help but think that the definition of "lack" is: "the candidate pool isn't 100,000x times the job pool, we still have to pay the bastards a fair wage".</p><p>No ivory backscratcher for you this week, Mr Burns.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When I hear about the lack of programmers , I ca n't help but think that the definition of " lack " is : " the candidate pool is n't 100,000x times the job pool , we still have to pay the bastards a fair wage " .No ivory backscratcher for you this week , Mr Burns .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I hear about the lack of programmers, I can't help but think that the definition of "lack" is: "the candidate pool isn't 100,000x times the job pool, we still have to pay the bastards a fair wage".No ivory backscratcher for you this week, Mr Burns.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31667144</id>
	<title>One important point</title>
	<author>gillbates</author>
	<datestamp>1269891180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
There are a lot of job listings in the classifieds who are either recruiters looking to build a resume database, or companies with no intention of hiring.
</p><p>
The first, recruiters, often advertise jobs in very general terms, and often short on specifics.  Seldom do they specify the company.  Sure, you can send your resume to them, but don't expect a reply anytime soon.
</p><p>
The second are a little harder to determine.  Companies will often advertise that they are hiring not because they intend to fill positions, but ecause it gives the vendors the impression that they are growing so fast they can't hire enough people to keep up.  Sometimes, they'll use these tactics to justify hiring H1B's instead of native talent.  Don't feel about not getting a jobs that doesn't really exist.
</p><p>
Finally, an anecdote.  A year after graduating, a friend of mine gets a call from a company.  Excellent benefits, salary, etc...  So she skips some *really important* family commitments to go to the interview, and what happens?  She's huddled into a room with a bunch of other "candidates" and given a sales presentation.  The job had nothing to do with either IS or IS management.
</p><p>
Officially, one of every 8 workers is unemployed in my state.  That's not counting the ones who retired, no longer qualify for benefits, or just took a job flipping burgers.  The economy is \_really\_ bad, and its no exaggeration to say it's the worst recession since the Great Depression.  If you can swing it, now is the time to stay in school.  You aren't going to gain any long term advantage by getting an entry level job now.
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are a lot of job listings in the classifieds who are either recruiters looking to build a resume database , or companies with no intention of hiring .
The first , recruiters , often advertise jobs in very general terms , and often short on specifics .
Seldom do they specify the company .
Sure , you can send your resume to them , but do n't expect a reply anytime soon .
The second are a little harder to determine .
Companies will often advertise that they are hiring not because they intend to fill positions , but ecause it gives the vendors the impression that they are growing so fast they ca n't hire enough people to keep up .
Sometimes , they 'll use these tactics to justify hiring H1B 's instead of native talent .
Do n't feel about not getting a jobs that does n't really exist .
Finally , an anecdote .
A year after graduating , a friend of mine gets a call from a company .
Excellent benefits , salary , etc... So she skips some * really important * family commitments to go to the interview , and what happens ?
She 's huddled into a room with a bunch of other " candidates " and given a sales presentation .
The job had nothing to do with either IS or IS management .
Officially , one of every 8 workers is unemployed in my state .
That 's not counting the ones who retired , no longer qualify for benefits , or just took a job flipping burgers .
The economy is \ _really \ _ bad , and its no exaggeration to say it 's the worst recession since the Great Depression .
If you can swing it , now is the time to stay in school .
You are n't going to gain any long term advantage by getting an entry level job now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
There are a lot of job listings in the classifieds who are either recruiters looking to build a resume database, or companies with no intention of hiring.
The first, recruiters, often advertise jobs in very general terms, and often short on specifics.
Seldom do they specify the company.
Sure, you can send your resume to them, but don't expect a reply anytime soon.
The second are a little harder to determine.
Companies will often advertise that they are hiring not because they intend to fill positions, but ecause it gives the vendors the impression that they are growing so fast they can't hire enough people to keep up.
Sometimes, they'll use these tactics to justify hiring H1B's instead of native talent.
Don't feel about not getting a jobs that doesn't really exist.
Finally, an anecdote.
A year after graduating, a friend of mine gets a call from a company.
Excellent benefits, salary, etc...  So she skips some *really important* family commitments to go to the interview, and what happens?
She's huddled into a room with a bunch of other "candidates" and given a sales presentation.
The job had nothing to do with either IS or IS management.
Officially, one of every 8 workers is unemployed in my state.
That's not counting the ones who retired, no longer qualify for benefits, or just took a job flipping burgers.
The economy is \_really\_ bad, and its no exaggeration to say it's the worst recession since the Great Depression.
If you can swing it, now is the time to stay in school.
You aren't going to gain any long term advantage by getting an entry level job now.
</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31653698</id>
	<title>use your network!</title>
	<author>ericbg05</author>
	<datestamp>1269801900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I read all the +3 -&gt; +5 comments here and am shocked to see no one mention the importance of referrals!<p>

You already know people connected to the industry -- talk to them!  Ask your profs if they know anybody in the industry.  Ask your jobful friends to pass your resume along.  Is there a famous prof at your uni?  Did you take a class with them?  Bring your chutzpah to their office and ask for a rec.</p><p>

A referral from a trusted third party is thousands of times more likely to get your foot in the door than your resume, no matter how bloody sparkly the thing is.</p><p>

Case in point, I graduated summa cum laude from an Ivy school, and no one really gave much of a shit.  Until I knocked on my algo prof's door once during his office hours, asked him whether he knew someone in industry looking for a smart hard-working youngster.  He gave me the name of his contact (the CEO of a tiny co).  (I didn't even do that well in the Prof's class, slightly below median IIRC.)</p><p>

Next thing I know the CEO's shaking my hand congratulating me on my new 50\%-pay job.  He's telling me "boy have you ever got a lot to learn, but Prof so-n-so says you're smart and you do seem to come off that way".  Worked my arse off til it turned into a real job.  And now there are *2* people out there who think I'm smart, so, you know, twice the network<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p><p>

If you don't have a network, make one.  Think about doing an unpaid internship <b>at a company that has a future</b>.  (Look into funding options from your uni for this kind of stuff.)  Be careful with this one -- the network you create here <b>must</b> be valuable to justify the work and the resume gap. </p><p>

I had the privilege once to speak with the former-CFO of Coke, and asked her (rather lamely) how one winds up being the CFO of Coke.  She said, "If you really want a big-time job you gotta be aggressive and you gotta be charming."</p><p>

Note that "qualified" is not a part of that sentence.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>I can program!</p></div><p>Broken thinking.  Getting hired isn't about being good at the job.  It's about <b>being good at getting hired</b>, which is a largely orthogonal skill set.</p><p>

Need new skill set = need to practice.  Interviews are like first dates: they pretty much all suck, but get less nerve-wrecking with practice.</p><p>

I should mention that once you have job 1, the network it creates (or doesn't create) will bear heavily on how your search for job 2 goes.  So <b>take good care of your network</b> at job 1.  I've seen a ton of smart people with amazing resumes, who are actually quite good programmers, who can't find jobs because they are huge pains in the ass.  The days of the cranky-bitch-genius-programmer are limited (if not completely over), because there are plenty of pleasant-genius-programmers out there who need jobs too.</p><p>

Approach your job like a pro: learn the politics and the people, be friendly, be polite but not stodgy.  Choose very carefully which personal details to share with which people.  Never express a negative emotion unless you've thought about it extremely thoroughly.  Never write an email to/from a work account that you wouldn't want the CEO to read.  Get people to like you: morally it shouldn't matter, but practically it makes a gigantic difference to how your career will go.</p><p>

Finally and of course most importantly, work your ass off and get results.  Nothing will make boss-man like you more than if you are generating two times the output as everyone else, with a smile and a joke handy at lunch time.  It makes him look fabulous to <b>his</b> boss, and ten years from now when he's working at google (or whatever the "google" of 2020 will be, probably "google"), guess where you can ship an email and probably get a job.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I read all the + 3 - &gt; + 5 comments here and am shocked to see no one mention the importance of referrals !
You already know people connected to the industry -- talk to them !
Ask your profs if they know anybody in the industry .
Ask your jobful friends to pass your resume along .
Is there a famous prof at your uni ?
Did you take a class with them ?
Bring your chutzpah to their office and ask for a rec .
A referral from a trusted third party is thousands of times more likely to get your foot in the door than your resume , no matter how bloody sparkly the thing is .
Case in point , I graduated summa cum laude from an Ivy school , and no one really gave much of a shit .
Until I knocked on my algo prof 's door once during his office hours , asked him whether he knew someone in industry looking for a smart hard-working youngster .
He gave me the name of his contact ( the CEO of a tiny co ) .
( I did n't even do that well in the Prof 's class , slightly below median IIRC .
) Next thing I know the CEO 's shaking my hand congratulating me on my new 50 \ % -pay job .
He 's telling me " boy have you ever got a lot to learn , but Prof so-n-so says you 're smart and you do seem to come off that way " .
Worked my arse off til it turned into a real job .
And now there are * 2 * people out there who think I 'm smart , so , you know , twice the network : ) If you do n't have a network , make one .
Think about doing an unpaid internship at a company that has a future .
( Look into funding options from your uni for this kind of stuff .
) Be careful with this one -- the network you create here must be valuable to justify the work and the resume gap .
I had the privilege once to speak with the former-CFO of Coke , and asked her ( rather lamely ) how one winds up being the CFO of Coke .
She said , " If you really want a big-time job you got ta be aggressive and you got ta be charming .
" Note that " qualified " is not a part of that sentence.I can program ! Broken thinking .
Getting hired is n't about being good at the job .
It 's about being good at getting hired , which is a largely orthogonal skill set .
Need new skill set = need to practice .
Interviews are like first dates : they pretty much all suck , but get less nerve-wrecking with practice .
I should mention that once you have job 1 , the network it creates ( or does n't create ) will bear heavily on how your search for job 2 goes .
So take good care of your network at job 1 .
I 've seen a ton of smart people with amazing resumes , who are actually quite good programmers , who ca n't find jobs because they are huge pains in the ass .
The days of the cranky-bitch-genius-programmer are limited ( if not completely over ) , because there are plenty of pleasant-genius-programmers out there who need jobs too .
Approach your job like a pro : learn the politics and the people , be friendly , be polite but not stodgy .
Choose very carefully which personal details to share with which people .
Never express a negative emotion unless you 've thought about it extremely thoroughly .
Never write an email to/from a work account that you would n't want the CEO to read .
Get people to like you : morally it should n't matter , but practically it makes a gigantic difference to how your career will go .
Finally and of course most importantly , work your ass off and get results .
Nothing will make boss-man like you more than if you are generating two times the output as everyone else , with a smile and a joke handy at lunch time .
It makes him look fabulous to his boss , and ten years from now when he 's working at google ( or whatever the " google " of 2020 will be , probably " google " ) , guess where you can ship an email and probably get a job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I read all the +3 -&gt; +5 comments here and am shocked to see no one mention the importance of referrals!
You already know people connected to the industry -- talk to them!
Ask your profs if they know anybody in the industry.
Ask your jobful friends to pass your resume along.
Is there a famous prof at your uni?
Did you take a class with them?
Bring your chutzpah to their office and ask for a rec.
A referral from a trusted third party is thousands of times more likely to get your foot in the door than your resume, no matter how bloody sparkly the thing is.
Case in point, I graduated summa cum laude from an Ivy school, and no one really gave much of a shit.
Until I knocked on my algo prof's door once during his office hours, asked him whether he knew someone in industry looking for a smart hard-working youngster.
He gave me the name of his contact (the CEO of a tiny co).
(I didn't even do that well in the Prof's class, slightly below median IIRC.
)

Next thing I know the CEO's shaking my hand congratulating me on my new 50\%-pay job.
He's telling me "boy have you ever got a lot to learn, but Prof so-n-so says you're smart and you do seem to come off that way".
Worked my arse off til it turned into a real job.
And now there are *2* people out there who think I'm smart, so, you know, twice the network :)

If you don't have a network, make one.
Think about doing an unpaid internship at a company that has a future.
(Look into funding options from your uni for this kind of stuff.
)  Be careful with this one -- the network you create here must be valuable to justify the work and the resume gap.
I had the privilege once to speak with the former-CFO of Coke, and asked her (rather lamely) how one winds up being the CFO of Coke.
She said, "If you really want a big-time job you gotta be aggressive and you gotta be charming.
"

Note that "qualified" is not a part of that sentence.I can program!Broken thinking.
Getting hired isn't about being good at the job.
It's about being good at getting hired, which is a largely orthogonal skill set.
Need new skill set = need to practice.
Interviews are like first dates: they pretty much all suck, but get less nerve-wrecking with practice.
I should mention that once you have job 1, the network it creates (or doesn't create) will bear heavily on how your search for job 2 goes.
So take good care of your network at job 1.
I've seen a ton of smart people with amazing resumes, who are actually quite good programmers, who can't find jobs because they are huge pains in the ass.
The days of the cranky-bitch-genius-programmer are limited (if not completely over), because there are plenty of pleasant-genius-programmers out there who need jobs too.
Approach your job like a pro: learn the politics and the people, be friendly, be polite but not stodgy.
Choose very carefully which personal details to share with which people.
Never express a negative emotion unless you've thought about it extremely thoroughly.
Never write an email to/from a work account that you wouldn't want the CEO to read.
Get people to like you: morally it shouldn't matter, but practically it makes a gigantic difference to how your career will go.
Finally and of course most importantly, work your ass off and get results.
Nothing will make boss-man like you more than if you are generating two times the output as everyone else, with a smile and a joke handy at lunch time.
It makes him look fabulous to his boss, and ten years from now when he's working at google (or whatever the "google" of 2020 will be, probably "google"), guess where you can ship an email and probably get a job.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31659390</id>
	<title>I realize my posts are mod 0, but read anyways</title>
	<author>Snyper1000</author>
	<datestamp>1269886980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm at 0, because some moron got offended that I think that the move to all web technologies is laziness on the part of programmers....java is easy, easy is lazy, I still stand by that, and refuse to make a new profile over that statement.  (His citing of google's introduction of a way of writing native web apps was a saving grace, but then WTF do we have an OS for?  Right native apps, they don't need to be run in a browser).<br> <br>Ok, having my "Bad Karma" out of the way, I haven't seen anyone really answer your question of how to get an interview, and I'll say I have successfully changed jobs several times, and helped many friends to land interviews and jobs.  First thing to understand, most big companies have taken the burdon of matching resumes to positions off the HR department, and onto the "candidate".  You need to search their job database, and apply to the jobs you feel you are a good fit for.  Not just make a profile, not just submit to 1 job, but all jobs you feel you are qualified for and interested in!  I have done some recruiting events for the company I currently work for.  On campus, we would not accept resumes.  This is because it actually changes your legal status as far as the company is concerned, and makes them subject to many more regulations about being an EOE.  Bottom line for submitting to a company directly, apply to as many jobs as you are interested in.  Your resume will usually then heads straight to the desk of the hiring manager (not HR).  If allowed/prompted, include a brief cover letter, I'll get to that in another section.<br> <br>The resume:  Keep it too the point.  You should definitely include an objective.  If you have a post-graduate degree, you will want to include your focus area.  If you just took some interesting coursework as electives, or your college had some good ones as required coursework, you will want to include that under your education section.  I personally used Numerical Analysis, Graphics Algorithms, OS, Digital Circuit Design and Physics.  If your GPA is good include it.  If not, don't.  They will ask for it later, but it might get you in the door for an interview.  Including a bad GPA often ensures you will not get an interview.  The company I work for now will not bring in an entry level hire without a GPA of 3.3 or better!  (Just a note, I graduated with a 3.39 from a large, well known university, but have helped friends with a 2.7 get interviews and jobs)  You say this is an entry level job, so you aren't going to have a lot of relevant work experience.  Still, if your last job was pretty steady, its good to include it just to show you aren't a job hopper, but if no work experience is relevant, limit it to one job.  You will want a Skills section.  This is really your keyword section.  Include languages, IDE's, programming areas of study (graphics, networking, databases, specific APIs like GTK, QT, Java, MFC, Win32, OO, UML, etc), anything that seems relevant. If this hasn't filled up 1 page, you can also include something line an "Other Interests" section.  List some of your hobbies, even irrelevant ones.  This can turn off some employers, but of I have found that it either goes ignored as filler, or the hiring manager/interviewer finds a common interest, makes a connection with you, and is more likely to hire you just because they like you.  This goes back to the it&amp;rsquo;s not what you know, but who you know aspect of things.  If they like you, you get &amp;ldquo;the who you know&amp;rdquo; aspect on your side.<br> <br>References!  The company may never contact the people you put down for references, but they are important none-the-less.  Usually they look for 3-5 references.  You do NOT want them all to be in the category of college buddies, life long friends, and family.  In general, depending on the number of references they ask for, its good to have 1 that is a peer (college buddy in the same major, or past colleague in the same field), one that was someone you worked for, and if possible a customer reference.  Given that you are looking for an entry</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm at 0 , because some moron got offended that I think that the move to all web technologies is laziness on the part of programmers....java is easy , easy is lazy , I still stand by that , and refuse to make a new profile over that statement .
( His citing of google 's introduction of a way of writing native web apps was a saving grace , but then WTF do we have an OS for ?
Right native apps , they do n't need to be run in a browser ) .
Ok , having my " Bad Karma " out of the way , I have n't seen anyone really answer your question of how to get an interview , and I 'll say I have successfully changed jobs several times , and helped many friends to land interviews and jobs .
First thing to understand , most big companies have taken the burdon of matching resumes to positions off the HR department , and onto the " candidate " .
You need to search their job database , and apply to the jobs you feel you are a good fit for .
Not just make a profile , not just submit to 1 job , but all jobs you feel you are qualified for and interested in !
I have done some recruiting events for the company I currently work for .
On campus , we would not accept resumes .
This is because it actually changes your legal status as far as the company is concerned , and makes them subject to many more regulations about being an EOE .
Bottom line for submitting to a company directly , apply to as many jobs as you are interested in .
Your resume will usually then heads straight to the desk of the hiring manager ( not HR ) .
If allowed/prompted , include a brief cover letter , I 'll get to that in another section .
The resume : Keep it too the point .
You should definitely include an objective .
If you have a post-graduate degree , you will want to include your focus area .
If you just took some interesting coursework as electives , or your college had some good ones as required coursework , you will want to include that under your education section .
I personally used Numerical Analysis , Graphics Algorithms , OS , Digital Circuit Design and Physics .
If your GPA is good include it .
If not , do n't .
They will ask for it later , but it might get you in the door for an interview .
Including a bad GPA often ensures you will not get an interview .
The company I work for now will not bring in an entry level hire without a GPA of 3.3 or better !
( Just a note , I graduated with a 3.39 from a large , well known university , but have helped friends with a 2.7 get interviews and jobs ) You say this is an entry level job , so you are n't going to have a lot of relevant work experience .
Still , if your last job was pretty steady , its good to include it just to show you are n't a job hopper , but if no work experience is relevant , limit it to one job .
You will want a Skills section .
This is really your keyword section .
Include languages , IDE 's , programming areas of study ( graphics , networking , databases , specific APIs like GTK , QT , Java , MFC , Win32 , OO , UML , etc ) , anything that seems relevant .
If this has n't filled up 1 page , you can also include something line an " Other Interests " section .
List some of your hobbies , even irrelevant ones .
This can turn off some employers , but of I have found that it either goes ignored as filler , or the hiring manager/interviewer finds a common interest , makes a connection with you , and is more likely to hire you just because they like you .
This goes back to the it    s not what you know , but who you know aspect of things .
If they like you , you get    the who you know    aspect on your side .
References ! The company may never contact the people you put down for references , but they are important none-the-less .
Usually they look for 3-5 references .
You do NOT want them all to be in the category of college buddies , life long friends , and family .
In general , depending on the number of references they ask for , its good to have 1 that is a peer ( college buddy in the same major , or past colleague in the same field ) , one that was someone you worked for , and if possible a customer reference .
Given that you are looking for an entry</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm at 0, because some moron got offended that I think that the move to all web technologies is laziness on the part of programmers....java is easy, easy is lazy, I still stand by that, and refuse to make a new profile over that statement.
(His citing of google's introduction of a way of writing native web apps was a saving grace, but then WTF do we have an OS for?
Right native apps, they don't need to be run in a browser).
Ok, having my "Bad Karma" out of the way, I haven't seen anyone really answer your question of how to get an interview, and I'll say I have successfully changed jobs several times, and helped many friends to land interviews and jobs.
First thing to understand, most big companies have taken the burdon of matching resumes to positions off the HR department, and onto the "candidate".
You need to search their job database, and apply to the jobs you feel you are a good fit for.
Not just make a profile, not just submit to 1 job, but all jobs you feel you are qualified for and interested in!
I have done some recruiting events for the company I currently work for.
On campus, we would not accept resumes.
This is because it actually changes your legal status as far as the company is concerned, and makes them subject to many more regulations about being an EOE.
Bottom line for submitting to a company directly, apply to as many jobs as you are interested in.
Your resume will usually then heads straight to the desk of the hiring manager (not HR).
If allowed/prompted, include a brief cover letter, I'll get to that in another section.
The resume:  Keep it too the point.
You should definitely include an objective.
If you have a post-graduate degree, you will want to include your focus area.
If you just took some interesting coursework as electives, or your college had some good ones as required coursework, you will want to include that under your education section.
I personally used Numerical Analysis, Graphics Algorithms, OS, Digital Circuit Design and Physics.
If your GPA is good include it.
If not, don't.
They will ask for it later, but it might get you in the door for an interview.
Including a bad GPA often ensures you will not get an interview.
The company I work for now will not bring in an entry level hire without a GPA of 3.3 or better!
(Just a note, I graduated with a 3.39 from a large, well known university, but have helped friends with a 2.7 get interviews and jobs)  You say this is an entry level job, so you aren't going to have a lot of relevant work experience.
Still, if your last job was pretty steady, its good to include it just to show you aren't a job hopper, but if no work experience is relevant, limit it to one job.
You will want a Skills section.
This is really your keyword section.
Include languages, IDE's, programming areas of study (graphics, networking, databases, specific APIs like GTK, QT, Java, MFC, Win32, OO, UML, etc), anything that seems relevant.
If this hasn't filled up 1 page, you can also include something line an "Other Interests" section.
List some of your hobbies, even irrelevant ones.
This can turn off some employers, but of I have found that it either goes ignored as filler, or the hiring manager/interviewer finds a common interest, makes a connection with you, and is more likely to hire you just because they like you.
This goes back to the it’s not what you know, but who you know aspect of things.
If they like you, you get “the who you know” aspect on your side.
References!  The company may never contact the people you put down for references, but they are important none-the-less.
Usually they look for 3-5 references.
You do NOT want them all to be in the category of college buddies, life long friends, and family.
In general, depending on the number of references they ask for, its good to have 1 that is a peer (college buddy in the same major, or past colleague in the same field), one that was someone you worked for, and if possible a customer reference.
Given that you are looking for an entry</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651582</id>
	<title>Re:The economy</title>
	<author>Matheus</author>
	<datestamp>1269779880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Disclaimer on the "taking an IT position" side.  That can help or hurt you.  I have examples of both on my resume:</p><p>1) GOOD: Summer tween Junior and Senior year I took a job at a tech firm near home.  It was supposed to be 1st level phone support (mostly to pay the bills while not working with food or retail).  During the training week my basic skills as a programmer and some language skills got me out of the pool and working on testing a German Language version of our product.  Very quickly I was creating their formal QA department and also working as a liaison between the dev team and the support team.  This was fantastic experience to have on a resume.</p><p>2) I have been working with computers since I was able to reach the keyboard and so can pretty much manage anything you put in front of me and get it working correctly.  Post graduation I got into an IT department at the college my Mom worked at to pay the bills while I was searching for my first "real" dev job.  This accomplished that goal BUT I spent 5 months trying to explain to recruiters and HR people that I had no desire to apply for their systems engineering position..  (I had one company actually bring me in.. I spent about 5 minutes with a developer before I was called into the hiring managers office saying "So we're really not looking for another developer right now but we have this 3rd shift job managing a 5-9s uptime system that we really want you for."  I thanked them for their time and walked out.</p><p>I'm not saying this isn't a bad way to pay the bills and if you get an IT job at a dev firm you may just get the opportunity to move sideways if they like you as a worker and you can find some way to demonstrate your coding ability to them (RARE!!)  but if you do you may want to consider having a SE vs. Dev resume to keep them separate.  Follow everyone else's suggestions on here and while you are paying the bills fixing computers, work for free on open source/etc projects that will be your "real" resume content.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Disclaimer on the " taking an IT position " side .
That can help or hurt you .
I have examples of both on my resume : 1 ) GOOD : Summer tween Junior and Senior year I took a job at a tech firm near home .
It was supposed to be 1st level phone support ( mostly to pay the bills while not working with food or retail ) .
During the training week my basic skills as a programmer and some language skills got me out of the pool and working on testing a German Language version of our product .
Very quickly I was creating their formal QA department and also working as a liaison between the dev team and the support team .
This was fantastic experience to have on a resume.2 ) I have been working with computers since I was able to reach the keyboard and so can pretty much manage anything you put in front of me and get it working correctly .
Post graduation I got into an IT department at the college my Mom worked at to pay the bills while I was searching for my first " real " dev job .
This accomplished that goal BUT I spent 5 months trying to explain to recruiters and HR people that I had no desire to apply for their systems engineering position.. ( I had one company actually bring me in.. I spent about 5 minutes with a developer before I was called into the hiring managers office saying " So we 're really not looking for another developer right now but we have this 3rd shift job managing a 5-9s uptime system that we really want you for .
" I thanked them for their time and walked out.I 'm not saying this is n't a bad way to pay the bills and if you get an IT job at a dev firm you may just get the opportunity to move sideways if they like you as a worker and you can find some way to demonstrate your coding ability to them ( RARE ! !
) but if you do you may want to consider having a SE vs. Dev resume to keep them separate .
Follow everyone else 's suggestions on here and while you are paying the bills fixing computers , work for free on open source/etc projects that will be your " real " resume content .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Disclaimer on the "taking an IT position" side.
That can help or hurt you.
I have examples of both on my resume:1) GOOD: Summer tween Junior and Senior year I took a job at a tech firm near home.
It was supposed to be 1st level phone support (mostly to pay the bills while not working with food or retail).
During the training week my basic skills as a programmer and some language skills got me out of the pool and working on testing a German Language version of our product.
Very quickly I was creating their formal QA department and also working as a liaison between the dev team and the support team.
This was fantastic experience to have on a resume.2) I have been working with computers since I was able to reach the keyboard and so can pretty much manage anything you put in front of me and get it working correctly.
Post graduation I got into an IT department at the college my Mom worked at to pay the bills while I was searching for my first "real" dev job.
This accomplished that goal BUT I spent 5 months trying to explain to recruiters and HR people that I had no desire to apply for their systems engineering position..  (I had one company actually bring me in.. I spent about 5 minutes with a developer before I was called into the hiring managers office saying "So we're really not looking for another developer right now but we have this 3rd shift job managing a 5-9s uptime system that we really want you for.
"  I thanked them for their time and walked out.I'm not saying this isn't a bad way to pay the bills and if you get an IT job at a dev firm you may just get the opportunity to move sideways if they like you as a worker and you can find some way to demonstrate your coding ability to them (RARE!!
)  but if you do you may want to consider having a SE vs. Dev resume to keep them separate.
Follow everyone else's suggestions on here and while you are paying the bills fixing computers, work for free on open source/etc projects that will be your "real" resume content.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650260</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651842</id>
	<title>Just went through this</title>
	<author>jwinster</author>
	<datestamp>1269782340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Having just gone through this myself, career services events are the biggest help.  I went to a larger university that had semi-annual career fairs, while the drones that go there for corporations can't really do much but point you to a website, if you make a good enough impression you can often get on-campus interviews.  I had about 15 interviews between september '08 and february '09, just by using all the resources career services had to offer.  Good luck!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Having just gone through this myself , career services events are the biggest help .
I went to a larger university that had semi-annual career fairs , while the drones that go there for corporations ca n't really do much but point you to a website , if you make a good enough impression you can often get on-campus interviews .
I had about 15 interviews between september '08 and february '09 , just by using all the resources career services had to offer .
Good luck !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Having just gone through this myself, career services events are the biggest help.
I went to a larger university that had semi-annual career fairs, while the drones that go there for corporations can't really do much but point you to a website, if you make a good enough impression you can often get on-campus interviews.
I had about 15 interviews between september '08 and february '09, just by using all the resources career services had to offer.
Good luck!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31655736</id>
	<title>Networking, and other suggestions.</title>
	<author>MrCrassic</author>
	<datestamp>1269870540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As it's probably been said already, the easiest way to get employed practically anywhere is by networking. This, of course, is much easier to do if you live in a larger city where business networking events happen more frequently. This actually works better than most other methods because you build rapport with people you might eventually work for, which, in turn, makes it easier to prove your skills and find a good place to be.</p><p>You can also try joining mailing lists. One list that I'm on, which is supposed to discuss C++ development and such, has been practically posting SOLELY job offers, all of which are pretty highly salaried. (The last posting I saw advertised a position that paid $200K/year in NYC for a senior C++ development position.) <a href="http://www.meetup.com/" title="meetup.com">http://www.meetup.com/</a> [meetup.com] makes it easy to find such lists, though you can also find similar lists on open-source projects you find interesting.</p><p>Yet another way to look for jobs is by joining forums that interest you. There are tons of forums that discuss programming, many of which are separated by language. Proving your salt on a forum and gaining some credibility can make it easier for you to find jobs, though they come by less often in my past experience.</p><p>If you must play the online resume game, play with the keywords, as most online resume systems filter solely by that criterion. I believe that is a reason why so many applicants who call themselves developers even get through the door; online resume submission is a fairly simple system to defeat once you play with them enough.</p><p>The last alternative that you can consider is using a headhunter to find a job for you. They usually tweak your resume to make it attractive, and use their network of contacts to get you interviews. I've met a few headhunters from events, and they spend a substantial amount of time just meeting people expressly for this purpose.</p><p>Hope this helps!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As it 's probably been said already , the easiest way to get employed practically anywhere is by networking .
This , of course , is much easier to do if you live in a larger city where business networking events happen more frequently .
This actually works better than most other methods because you build rapport with people you might eventually work for , which , in turn , makes it easier to prove your skills and find a good place to be.You can also try joining mailing lists .
One list that I 'm on , which is supposed to discuss C + + development and such , has been practically posting SOLELY job offers , all of which are pretty highly salaried .
( The last posting I saw advertised a position that paid $ 200K/year in NYC for a senior C + + development position .
) http : //www.meetup.com/ [ meetup.com ] makes it easy to find such lists , though you can also find similar lists on open-source projects you find interesting.Yet another way to look for jobs is by joining forums that interest you .
There are tons of forums that discuss programming , many of which are separated by language .
Proving your salt on a forum and gaining some credibility can make it easier for you to find jobs , though they come by less often in my past experience.If you must play the online resume game , play with the keywords , as most online resume systems filter solely by that criterion .
I believe that is a reason why so many applicants who call themselves developers even get through the door ; online resume submission is a fairly simple system to defeat once you play with them enough.The last alternative that you can consider is using a headhunter to find a job for you .
They usually tweak your resume to make it attractive , and use their network of contacts to get you interviews .
I 've met a few headhunters from events , and they spend a substantial amount of time just meeting people expressly for this purpose.Hope this helps !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As it's probably been said already, the easiest way to get employed practically anywhere is by networking.
This, of course, is much easier to do if you live in a larger city where business networking events happen more frequently.
This actually works better than most other methods because you build rapport with people you might eventually work for, which, in turn, makes it easier to prove your skills and find a good place to be.You can also try joining mailing lists.
One list that I'm on, which is supposed to discuss C++ development and such, has been practically posting SOLELY job offers, all of which are pretty highly salaried.
(The last posting I saw advertised a position that paid $200K/year in NYC for a senior C++ development position.
) http://www.meetup.com/ [meetup.com] makes it easy to find such lists, though you can also find similar lists on open-source projects you find interesting.Yet another way to look for jobs is by joining forums that interest you.
There are tons of forums that discuss programming, many of which are separated by language.
Proving your salt on a forum and gaining some credibility can make it easier for you to find jobs, though they come by less often in my past experience.If you must play the online resume game, play with the keywords, as most online resume systems filter solely by that criterion.
I believe that is a reason why so many applicants who call themselves developers even get through the door; online resume submission is a fairly simple system to defeat once you play with them enough.The last alternative that you can consider is using a headhunter to find a job for you.
They usually tweak your resume to make it attractive, and use their network of contacts to get you interviews.
I've met a few headhunters from events, and they spend a substantial amount of time just meeting people expressly for this purpose.Hope this helps!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31654708</id>
	<title>Re:Apply</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269858960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The lack of experience puts you at the bottom of the food chain, you have to compete with me, and my 20 years of writing software, and the thousands of others like me.</p></div><p>On the bright side: in getting to your CV, HR will already shredded those of BitZtream &amp; his chums because THEY'RE TOO DARNED OLD!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The lack of experience puts you at the bottom of the food chain , you have to compete with me , and my 20 years of writing software , and the thousands of others like me.On the bright side : in getting to your CV , HR will already shredded those of BitZtream &amp; his chums because THEY 'RE TOO DARNED OLD !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The lack of experience puts you at the bottom of the food chain, you have to compete with me, and my 20 years of writing software, and the thousands of others like me.On the bright side: in getting to your CV, HR will already shredded those of BitZtream &amp; his chums because THEY'RE TOO DARNED OLD!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650362</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31654176</id>
	<title>Re:Apply</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269894060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>to BitZtream: i would assume that most people have no skills in programming, but honestly, there are exceptions -- have you seen what timothy can do?</p><p>to original poster:<br>after a $^\%&amp;* degree you should have the sense to not apply for work that is anything below 40K a year, and if people tell you that you are going to have to work for less, let me tell you that most of those jobs end up in other countries anyway.</p><p>50K/year is not out of reach either, really (if you are good, and can prove it)</p><p>i am not in a computer science program, i am in an information science program, most of my friends find meaningful (&gt;40K/year) jobs eventually, if they broaden their circles, and apply for work that is not strictly in one field (eg programming, IT Support, DBA, etc...) (it can take between 0 and 6months to find work though)</p><p>honestly, if you can do the math, comp sci, etc... you should be worth your salt in more than just programming. (unless you were really stupid and decided that programming was the only thing you COULD do in your whole life and decided to prove that by getting a comp sci degree)</p><p>furthermore, i have a prof who once suggested that instead of only sending resumes etc... i should literally go for coffee with the managers etc... so far this strategy has lead to people asking for my resume, interviews and the like,  which, for a new graduate, in this shit of an economy, is much better than many people. (don't be afraid to move, or drive lots though)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>to BitZtream : i would assume that most people have no skills in programming , but honestly , there are exceptions -- have you seen what timothy can do ? to original poster : after a $ ^ \ % &amp; * degree you should have the sense to not apply for work that is anything below 40K a year , and if people tell you that you are going to have to work for less , let me tell you that most of those jobs end up in other countries anyway.50K/year is not out of reach either , really ( if you are good , and can prove it ) i am not in a computer science program , i am in an information science program , most of my friends find meaningful ( &gt; 40K/year ) jobs eventually , if they broaden their circles , and apply for work that is not strictly in one field ( eg programming , IT Support , DBA , etc... ) ( it can take between 0 and 6months to find work though ) honestly , if you can do the math , comp sci , etc... you should be worth your salt in more than just programming .
( unless you were really stupid and decided that programming was the only thing you COULD do in your whole life and decided to prove that by getting a comp sci degree ) furthermore , i have a prof who once suggested that instead of only sending resumes etc... i should literally go for coffee with the managers etc... so far this strategy has lead to people asking for my resume , interviews and the like , which , for a new graduate , in this shit of an economy , is much better than many people .
( do n't be afraid to move , or drive lots though )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>to BitZtream: i would assume that most people have no skills in programming, but honestly, there are exceptions -- have you seen what timothy can do?to original poster:after a $^\%&amp;* degree you should have the sense to not apply for work that is anything below 40K a year, and if people tell you that you are going to have to work for less, let me tell you that most of those jobs end up in other countries anyway.50K/year is not out of reach either, really (if you are good, and can prove it)i am not in a computer science program, i am in an information science program, most of my friends find meaningful (&gt;40K/year) jobs eventually, if they broaden their circles, and apply for work that is not strictly in one field (eg programming, IT Support, DBA, etc...) (it can take between 0 and 6months to find work though)honestly, if you can do the math, comp sci, etc... you should be worth your salt in more than just programming.
(unless you were really stupid and decided that programming was the only thing you COULD do in your whole life and decided to prove that by getting a comp sci degree)furthermore, i have a prof who once suggested that instead of only sending resumes etc... i should literally go for coffee with the managers etc... so far this strategy has lead to people asking for my resume, interviews and the like,  which, for a new graduate, in this shit of an economy, is much better than many people.
(don't be afraid to move, or drive lots though)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650362</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652934</id>
	<title>Getting past HR is part of the test</title>
	<author>flyingfsck</author>
	<datestamp>1269794100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I have come to the conclusion that finding a way past HR is part of the aptitude test.  You need to have someone on the inside that will give your resume to the guy that needs you.  He will then take your resume to HR and say 'hire this guy'.  So, it all boils down to 'networking' and with that I don't mean Facebook...</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have come to the conclusion that finding a way past HR is part of the aptitude test .
You need to have someone on the inside that will give your resume to the guy that needs you .
He will then take your resume to HR and say 'hire this guy' .
So , it all boils down to 'networking ' and with that I do n't mean Facebook.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have come to the conclusion that finding a way past HR is part of the aptitude test.
You need to have someone on the inside that will give your resume to the guy that needs you.
He will then take your resume to HR and say 'hire this guy'.
So, it all boils down to 'networking' and with that I don't mean Facebook...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652522</id>
	<title>How to get an entry level job</title>
	<author>halcyon1234</author>
	<datestamp>1269789060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Step 1: Have 2 years of experience...</htmltext>
<tokenext>Step 1 : Have 2 years of experience.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Step 1: Have 2 years of experience...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650976</id>
	<title>Networking</title>
	<author>Art3x</author>
	<datestamp>1269775140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A tech recruiter friend gave me this advice. The best way to get a job is, find companies you would like to work for, and try to <b>find someone on the inside</b>. This has proved true, even before I met him and I wasn't trying to do it. Besides part-time jobs at restaurants, retail stores, etc., <b>every single one of my jobs</b> has been through knowing somebody. They were not the one hiring, but they introduced me to that person.</p><p>1. I got a job as a classroom speaker, even though I had no professional speaking experience, because a family member worked at the organization. Both the organization and I soon realized that I was an awful speaker. But they didn't fire me. They moved me into an office job, which I liked more anyway.</p><p>2. I then got a job as a graphic designer, through a friend of my roommates, even though I had zero portfolio samples. The boss and pay were awful, though, and I soon quit. But I learned (a) not to do art professionally because you will be told by unartistic people what fonts, colors, etc. to use, and (b) the importance of a good boss.</p><p>3. I then got a job as a technical writer for a major IT department, through a friend, even though it had never been my job title. I did have a few samples though from the last job.</p><p>4. In that same company, I became a web programmer, even though all I knew was HTML. That was four years ago. I still work there and now take care of several web apps on our intranet written in PHP, PostgreSQL, and JavaScript.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A tech recruiter friend gave me this advice .
The best way to get a job is , find companies you would like to work for , and try to find someone on the inside .
This has proved true , even before I met him and I was n't trying to do it .
Besides part-time jobs at restaurants , retail stores , etc. , every single one of my jobs has been through knowing somebody .
They were not the one hiring , but they introduced me to that person.1 .
I got a job as a classroom speaker , even though I had no professional speaking experience , because a family member worked at the organization .
Both the organization and I soon realized that I was an awful speaker .
But they did n't fire me .
They moved me into an office job , which I liked more anyway.2 .
I then got a job as a graphic designer , through a friend of my roommates , even though I had zero portfolio samples .
The boss and pay were awful , though , and I soon quit .
But I learned ( a ) not to do art professionally because you will be told by unartistic people what fonts , colors , etc .
to use , and ( b ) the importance of a good boss.3 .
I then got a job as a technical writer for a major IT department , through a friend , even though it had never been my job title .
I did have a few samples though from the last job.4 .
In that same company , I became a web programmer , even though all I knew was HTML .
That was four years ago .
I still work there and now take care of several web apps on our intranet written in PHP , PostgreSQL , and JavaScript .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A tech recruiter friend gave me this advice.
The best way to get a job is, find companies you would like to work for, and try to find someone on the inside.
This has proved true, even before I met him and I wasn't trying to do it.
Besides part-time jobs at restaurants, retail stores, etc., every single one of my jobs has been through knowing somebody.
They were not the one hiring, but they introduced me to that person.1.
I got a job as a classroom speaker, even though I had no professional speaking experience, because a family member worked at the organization.
Both the organization and I soon realized that I was an awful speaker.
But they didn't fire me.
They moved me into an office job, which I liked more anyway.2.
I then got a job as a graphic designer, through a friend of my roommates, even though I had zero portfolio samples.
The boss and pay were awful, though, and I soon quit.
But I learned (a) not to do art professionally because you will be told by unartistic people what fonts, colors, etc.
to use, and (b) the importance of a good boss.3.
I then got a job as a technical writer for a major IT department, through a friend, even though it had never been my job title.
I did have a few samples though from the last job.4.
In that same company, I became a web programmer, even though all I knew was HTML.
That was four years ago.
I still work there and now take care of several web apps on our intranet written in PHP, PostgreSQL, and JavaScript.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650408</id>
	<title>Networking</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269771600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Getting a professional job isn't as simple as having the knowledge and certifications that make you eligible. Building a social network is equally important, if not more important. Having a professional that's already in the industry being able to vouch for you is a huge plus when it comes to finding jobs. Often, this can completely bypass HR and get you in touch with the management involved where your targeted position is.</p><p>HR is kinda stupid. Getting around them is the best way to get in, and doing that requires knowing the right people.</p><p>This is how I got my engineering job. I have no degrees, but I have substantial real world experience and knowledge, and was introduced to my job through a friend and former coworker who convinced my current manager to interview me. No HR was involved until hiring.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Getting a professional job is n't as simple as having the knowledge and certifications that make you eligible .
Building a social network is equally important , if not more important .
Having a professional that 's already in the industry being able to vouch for you is a huge plus when it comes to finding jobs .
Often , this can completely bypass HR and get you in touch with the management involved where your targeted position is.HR is kinda stupid .
Getting around them is the best way to get in , and doing that requires knowing the right people.This is how I got my engineering job .
I have no degrees , but I have substantial real world experience and knowledge , and was introduced to my job through a friend and former coworker who convinced my current manager to interview me .
No HR was involved until hiring .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Getting a professional job isn't as simple as having the knowledge and certifications that make you eligible.
Building a social network is equally important, if not more important.
Having a professional that's already in the industry being able to vouch for you is a huge plus when it comes to finding jobs.
Often, this can completely bypass HR and get you in touch with the management involved where your targeted position is.HR is kinda stupid.
Getting around them is the best way to get in, and doing that requires knowing the right people.This is how I got my engineering job.
I have no degrees, but I have substantial real world experience and knowledge, and was introduced to my job through a friend and former coworker who convinced my current manager to interview me.
No HR was involved until hiring.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650746</id>
	<title>Re:Apply</title>
	<author>thefear</author>
	<datestamp>1269773820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>How are you showing them your skills? A resume? I've hired a few developers in my time, I assure you the only people that care about your resume is HR.</p></div></blockquote><p>Agreed, that said, the OP lamented how he can't get an interview. Maybe he does need to improve his resume.</p><blockquote><div><p>Regardless of everything I've said above, be it right or wrong, you have one serious disadvantage. You're looking for a job at the worst possible time.</p></div></blockquote><p>I fervently disagree with this sentiment. I'm also a soon to graduate developer and have received offers from almost every company that I applied to.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>How are you showing them your skills ?
A resume ?
I 've hired a few developers in my time , I assure you the only people that care about your resume is HR.Agreed , that said , the OP lamented how he ca n't get an interview .
Maybe he does need to improve his resume.Regardless of everything I 've said above , be it right or wrong , you have one serious disadvantage .
You 're looking for a job at the worst possible time.I fervently disagree with this sentiment .
I 'm also a soon to graduate developer and have received offers from almost every company that I applied to .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How are you showing them your skills?
A resume?
I've hired a few developers in my time, I assure you the only people that care about your resume is HR.Agreed, that said, the OP lamented how he can't get an interview.
Maybe he does need to improve his resume.Regardless of everything I've said above, be it right or wrong, you have one serious disadvantage.
You're looking for a job at the worst possible time.I fervently disagree with this sentiment.
I'm also a soon to graduate developer and have received offers from almost every company that I applied to.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650362</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650210</id>
	<title>Apply</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269770280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And stop expecting a big salary shiny salary to do what is essentially the work of a computer janitor.</p><p>As soon as you lower your expectations to reality you'll find 'entry level' jobs are almost as common as now-hiring signs at McDonalds.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And stop expecting a big salary shiny salary to do what is essentially the work of a computer janitor.As soon as you lower your expectations to reality you 'll find 'entry level ' jobs are almost as common as now-hiring signs at McDonalds .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And stop expecting a big salary shiny salary to do what is essentially the work of a computer janitor.As soon as you lower your expectations to reality you'll find 'entry level' jobs are almost as common as now-hiring signs at McDonalds.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651806</id>
	<title>Some tips.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269781980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Here are a few tips I did to get my foot in the door right before graduation:</p><p>-  Don't be afraid to work for free for a few months as an unpaid intern.  I know it sucks.  I did it for 3 months with a mortgage and 2 semesters to go.  The references you'll get and the experience you'll obtain will be invaluable.  I found mine by going to the job listings on my university's career page.</p><p>- Get into QA.  QA positions tend to attract the riff-raff of the programming industry.  Incidentally, most of the candidates aren't worth squat (meaning you'll have a good opportunity to get a job).  Once you land a QA job, do what you can to start programming.  If the current QA job doesn't have any programming, use your newly acquired experience to find a QA job that does.  That's basically what I did.  The job I was QAing for had a job listing as a web developer.  I asked the CEO of the company (a very small company) if I could help with some of the web development when their wasn't a lot of work to QA.  After a few weeks of doing programming on the side, he was so impressed that he gave me the job as a web developer.</p><p>- Self study.  Learn what the real world is using and study the hell out of it.  When you do an interview, remember all the questions you were asked, write them down and find out the real answers for them after the interview is over.  There is a very good chance you'll be asked these same questions again.</p><p>I hope this helps.  Good Luck!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Here are a few tips I did to get my foot in the door right before graduation : - Do n't be afraid to work for free for a few months as an unpaid intern .
I know it sucks .
I did it for 3 months with a mortgage and 2 semesters to go .
The references you 'll get and the experience you 'll obtain will be invaluable .
I found mine by going to the job listings on my university 's career page.- Get into QA .
QA positions tend to attract the riff-raff of the programming industry .
Incidentally , most of the candidates are n't worth squat ( meaning you 'll have a good opportunity to get a job ) .
Once you land a QA job , do what you can to start programming .
If the current QA job does n't have any programming , use your newly acquired experience to find a QA job that does .
That 's basically what I did .
The job I was QAing for had a job listing as a web developer .
I asked the CEO of the company ( a very small company ) if I could help with some of the web development when their was n't a lot of work to QA .
After a few weeks of doing programming on the side , he was so impressed that he gave me the job as a web developer.- Self study .
Learn what the real world is using and study the hell out of it .
When you do an interview , remember all the questions you were asked , write them down and find out the real answers for them after the interview is over .
There is a very good chance you 'll be asked these same questions again.I hope this helps .
Good Luck !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here are a few tips I did to get my foot in the door right before graduation:-  Don't be afraid to work for free for a few months as an unpaid intern.
I know it sucks.
I did it for 3 months with a mortgage and 2 semesters to go.
The references you'll get and the experience you'll obtain will be invaluable.
I found mine by going to the job listings on my university's career page.- Get into QA.
QA positions tend to attract the riff-raff of the programming industry.
Incidentally, most of the candidates aren't worth squat (meaning you'll have a good opportunity to get a job).
Once you land a QA job, do what you can to start programming.
If the current QA job doesn't have any programming, use your newly acquired experience to find a QA job that does.
That's basically what I did.
The job I was QAing for had a job listing as a web developer.
I asked the CEO of the company (a very small company) if I could help with some of the web development when their wasn't a lot of work to QA.
After a few weeks of doing programming on the side, he was so impressed that he gave me the job as a web developer.- Self study.
Learn what the real world is using and study the hell out of it.
When you do an interview, remember all the questions you were asked, write them down and find out the real answers for them after the interview is over.
There is a very good chance you'll be asked these same questions again.I hope this helps.
Good Luck!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651454</id>
	<title>My two cents</title>
	<author>mrlibertarian</author>
	<datestamp>1269778860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I completely understand, because I felt the same way when I graduated college with a computer science degree. I had a part-time programming job during college, but that wasn't enough. No one was willing to take a chance on me.<br> <br>So, what did I do? I lowered my expectations and started applying to any job that was remotely technical. I managed to land a technical support job at a local university. I thought to myself, "This is a dead-end job. I'm making $13 an hour, which isn't too bad for the work I'm doing. But I'm not using any of my programming skills. I'm just talking on the phone."<br> <br>Three months later, however, I was able to land a job as an application engineer: A job where I would be talking to customers on the phone about problems that required C/C++ knowledge. So, the job that I thought was "dead-end" was actually crucial for my career path, because it gave me the technical support experience I needed to land the application engineering job. And after working as an application engineer for a couple of years, I was able to convince the managers that I had what it took to be a software engineer, which was the job I wanted in the first place.<br> <br>So, what I'm saying is, start applying to any job that involves any kind of technical work, even if you won't be using your degree, because you never know what paths will open up.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I completely understand , because I felt the same way when I graduated college with a computer science degree .
I had a part-time programming job during college , but that was n't enough .
No one was willing to take a chance on me .
So , what did I do ?
I lowered my expectations and started applying to any job that was remotely technical .
I managed to land a technical support job at a local university .
I thought to myself , " This is a dead-end job .
I 'm making $ 13 an hour , which is n't too bad for the work I 'm doing .
But I 'm not using any of my programming skills .
I 'm just talking on the phone .
" Three months later , however , I was able to land a job as an application engineer : A job where I would be talking to customers on the phone about problems that required C/C + + knowledge .
So , the job that I thought was " dead-end " was actually crucial for my career path , because it gave me the technical support experience I needed to land the application engineering job .
And after working as an application engineer for a couple of years , I was able to convince the managers that I had what it took to be a software engineer , which was the job I wanted in the first place .
So , what I 'm saying is , start applying to any job that involves any kind of technical work , even if you wo n't be using your degree , because you never know what paths will open up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I completely understand, because I felt the same way when I graduated college with a computer science degree.
I had a part-time programming job during college, but that wasn't enough.
No one was willing to take a chance on me.
So, what did I do?
I lowered my expectations and started applying to any job that was remotely technical.
I managed to land a technical support job at a local university.
I thought to myself, "This is a dead-end job.
I'm making $13 an hour, which isn't too bad for the work I'm doing.
But I'm not using any of my programming skills.
I'm just talking on the phone.
" Three months later, however, I was able to land a job as an application engineer: A job where I would be talking to customers on the phone about problems that required C/C++ knowledge.
So, the job that I thought was "dead-end" was actually crucial for my career path, because it gave me the technical support experience I needed to land the application engineering job.
And after working as an application engineer for a couple of years, I was able to convince the managers that I had what it took to be a software engineer, which was the job I wanted in the first place.
So, what I'm saying is, start applying to any job that involves any kind of technical work, even if you won't be using your degree, because you never know what paths will open up.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650766</id>
	<title>Earn it.</title>
	<author>The Outbreak Monkey</author>
	<datestamp>1269773940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>A B.S. alone doesn't mean you deserve an interview.  Many many people have that degree PLUS experience.  You are at a great disadvantage from the start, with the added restriction of being in a small town.  Here is my advice to you:<br> <br>
1.  Stop playing the victim, stop making excuses. Let the losers do that while you get yourself a job.<br>
2.  Network.  Go to happy hours, talks, toastmasters, other networking meetings.  Put yourself out there and let people know what you can do for them and how little they'll have to pay you.  The best jobs to interview for are the ones that aren't posted and you don't land those interviews from behind a PC.<br> <br>
3. Find out where your classmates are getting jobs.  Wait 2 and a half months and send that company your resume.  Chances are someone isnt going to pass probation and they are going to need another developer.<br> <br>
4. Don't limit yourself geographically.  Time goes quickly when you get out of school, you can move back once you get your experience.<br> <br>
5. Tell everyone you know that you are looking.  Most companies give referral bonuses, and people will be eager to mention your name when the time is right.<br> <br>

I could go on but I think you get the idea.  You need to separate yourself from the thousands of introverted unemployed programmers out there.  Then when someone tells you were lucky to get the job you can tell them to piss off because "I earned it." <br> <br>Yeah you could contribute to opensource projects and all that jazz but that will help you more in the interview than anything else.  We can deal with that later, first you have to get a few interviews...</htmltext>
<tokenext>A B.S .
alone does n't mean you deserve an interview .
Many many people have that degree PLUS experience .
You are at a great disadvantage from the start , with the added restriction of being in a small town .
Here is my advice to you : 1 .
Stop playing the victim , stop making excuses .
Let the losers do that while you get yourself a job .
2. Network .
Go to happy hours , talks , toastmasters , other networking meetings .
Put yourself out there and let people know what you can do for them and how little they 'll have to pay you .
The best jobs to interview for are the ones that are n't posted and you do n't land those interviews from behind a PC .
3. Find out where your classmates are getting jobs .
Wait 2 and a half months and send that company your resume .
Chances are someone isnt going to pass probation and they are going to need another developer .
4. Do n't limit yourself geographically .
Time goes quickly when you get out of school , you can move back once you get your experience .
5. Tell everyone you know that you are looking .
Most companies give referral bonuses , and people will be eager to mention your name when the time is right .
I could go on but I think you get the idea .
You need to separate yourself from the thousands of introverted unemployed programmers out there .
Then when someone tells you were lucky to get the job you can tell them to piss off because " I earned it .
" Yeah you could contribute to opensource projects and all that jazz but that will help you more in the interview than anything else .
We can deal with that later , first you have to get a few interviews.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A B.S.
alone doesn't mean you deserve an interview.
Many many people have that degree PLUS experience.
You are at a great disadvantage from the start, with the added restriction of being in a small town.
Here is my advice to you: 
1.
Stop playing the victim, stop making excuses.
Let the losers do that while you get yourself a job.
2.  Network.
Go to happy hours, talks, toastmasters, other networking meetings.
Put yourself out there and let people know what you can do for them and how little they'll have to pay you.
The best jobs to interview for are the ones that aren't posted and you don't land those interviews from behind a PC.
3. Find out where your classmates are getting jobs.
Wait 2 and a half months and send that company your resume.
Chances are someone isnt going to pass probation and they are going to need another developer.
4. Don't limit yourself geographically.
Time goes quickly when you get out of school, you can move back once you get your experience.
5. Tell everyone you know that you are looking.
Most companies give referral bonuses, and people will be eager to mention your name when the time is right.
I could go on but I think you get the idea.
You need to separate yourself from the thousands of introverted unemployed programmers out there.
Then when someone tells you were lucky to get the job you can tell them to piss off because "I earned it.
"  Yeah you could contribute to opensource projects and all that jazz but that will help you more in the interview than anything else.
We can deal with that later, first you have to get a few interviews...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31653310</id>
	<title>Re:show off your programming skills</title>
	<author>Sarten-X</author>
	<datestamp>1269797760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> literally anything that shows you can code in a reasonable, organized fashion will put you at the top of the list.</p></div><p>Absolutely.</p><p>I recently (last week) got one of those awesome jobs everyone wants (sucks to be y'all). I am 100\% certain that the only reason I (a grad student with <em>no</em> significant paid work experience) got the interview was because I did very well in some ACM programming contests. The job involves working on a lot of algorithms that are screwey, to say the least. I showed I could handle screwey problems easily, and I got the job.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>literally anything that shows you can code in a reasonable , organized fashion will put you at the top of the list.Absolutely.I recently ( last week ) got one of those awesome jobs everyone wants ( sucks to be y'all ) .
I am 100 \ % certain that the only reason I ( a grad student with no significant paid work experience ) got the interview was because I did very well in some ACM programming contests .
The job involves working on a lot of algorithms that are screwey , to say the least .
I showed I could handle screwey problems easily , and I got the job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> literally anything that shows you can code in a reasonable, organized fashion will put you at the top of the list.Absolutely.I recently (last week) got one of those awesome jobs everyone wants (sucks to be y'all).
I am 100\% certain that the only reason I (a grad student with no significant paid work experience) got the interview was because I did very well in some ACM programming contests.
The job involves working on a lot of algorithms that are screwey, to say the least.
I showed I could handle screwey problems easily, and I got the job.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650214</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652178</id>
	<title>I'm a coding rockstar, never landed a C/C++ job</title>
	<author>CrazyJim1</author>
	<datestamp>1269785820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You're totally right, HR people don't know anything when it comes to hiring programmers.  I think this is because there's no real way to determine the quality of a programmer by simply interviewing them.  One side will tell you to pad your resume with fabulous things like your ability to use Microsoft Word(tm), while the other side care about your "techs".  I don't think either side is right.  If a man knows how to code, it doesn't really matter what language they use because they'll be up to speed in a week or a month anyway.<br> <br>
It really is awful, if you ask for a low salary for something on your resume, they think you don't know how to code.  If you ask for a high salary for your skill, they ask you for your experience(which you have none).  Its the state of the union now, no one can get any jobs even though people are skilled.  Either go back to school while looking for work, or start a business while looking for work.  There is no guarantee you'll ever get a job no matter how much you know.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're totally right , HR people do n't know anything when it comes to hiring programmers .
I think this is because there 's no real way to determine the quality of a programmer by simply interviewing them .
One side will tell you to pad your resume with fabulous things like your ability to use Microsoft Word ( tm ) , while the other side care about your " techs " .
I do n't think either side is right .
If a man knows how to code , it does n't really matter what language they use because they 'll be up to speed in a week or a month anyway .
It really is awful , if you ask for a low salary for something on your resume , they think you do n't know how to code .
If you ask for a high salary for your skill , they ask you for your experience ( which you have none ) .
Its the state of the union now , no one can get any jobs even though people are skilled .
Either go back to school while looking for work , or start a business while looking for work .
There is no guarantee you 'll ever get a job no matter how much you know .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're totally right, HR people don't know anything when it comes to hiring programmers.
I think this is because there's no real way to determine the quality of a programmer by simply interviewing them.
One side will tell you to pad your resume with fabulous things like your ability to use Microsoft Word(tm), while the other side care about your "techs".
I don't think either side is right.
If a man knows how to code, it doesn't really matter what language they use because they'll be up to speed in a week or a month anyway.
It really is awful, if you ask for a low salary for something on your resume, they think you don't know how to code.
If you ask for a high salary for your skill, they ask you for your experience(which you have none).
Its the state of the union now, no one can get any jobs even though people are skilled.
Either go back to school while looking for work, or start a business while looking for work.
There is no guarantee you'll ever get a job no matter how much you know.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651300</id>
	<title>Re:Missing something</title>
	<author>lordlod</author>
	<datestamp>1269777720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Applying for jobs sucks and in many ways is a numbers game.</p><p>Making up some numbers, for any given job there will be 20 people who apply and think they have a chance.  Three of those will be interviewed and one hired.  So you have a 15\% chance of getting an interview and a 5\% chance of getting the job.</p><ul>
<li>The numbers are far worse for a graduate as there are more of you.</li><li>The numbers get worse as unemployment goes up.</li><li>The numbers get worse as people pitch for jobs they are overqualified for because they have family, mortgage etc. and need the money.</li></ul><p>You can increase the odds of getting a perfect job by using two different tactics.  If you see a job where you think "I could do that", do the selection criteria, fire in your CV and check it off the list.  If you see a job where you think "I really want to do that" go the extra mile, call them, talk to anyone you know in a related field, do the selection criteria, rewrite your CV, call them again, rewrite the selection criteria etc.  Going the extra mile will take a few days but it really helps for those truely awesome jobs, it's too much work to do every time though and you need those applications working through the system.</p><p>Looking for work should be considered a full time job.  You would normally work over seven hours a day, try to use at least five hours a day to apply for jobs.  Some time also needs to be devoted to remaining positive to try and fend of depression</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Applying for jobs sucks and in many ways is a numbers game.Making up some numbers , for any given job there will be 20 people who apply and think they have a chance .
Three of those will be interviewed and one hired .
So you have a 15 \ % chance of getting an interview and a 5 \ % chance of getting the job .
The numbers are far worse for a graduate as there are more of you.The numbers get worse as unemployment goes up.The numbers get worse as people pitch for jobs they are overqualified for because they have family , mortgage etc .
and need the money.You can increase the odds of getting a perfect job by using two different tactics .
If you see a job where you think " I could do that " , do the selection criteria , fire in your CV and check it off the list .
If you see a job where you think " I really want to do that " go the extra mile , call them , talk to anyone you know in a related field , do the selection criteria , rewrite your CV , call them again , rewrite the selection criteria etc .
Going the extra mile will take a few days but it really helps for those truely awesome jobs , it 's too much work to do every time though and you need those applications working through the system.Looking for work should be considered a full time job .
You would normally work over seven hours a day , try to use at least five hours a day to apply for jobs .
Some time also needs to be devoted to remaining positive to try and fend of depression</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Applying for jobs sucks and in many ways is a numbers game.Making up some numbers, for any given job there will be 20 people who apply and think they have a chance.
Three of those will be interviewed and one hired.
So you have a 15\% chance of getting an interview and a 5\% chance of getting the job.
The numbers are far worse for a graduate as there are more of you.The numbers get worse as unemployment goes up.The numbers get worse as people pitch for jobs they are overqualified for because they have family, mortgage etc.
and need the money.You can increase the odds of getting a perfect job by using two different tactics.
If you see a job where you think "I could do that", do the selection criteria, fire in your CV and check it off the list.
If you see a job where you think "I really want to do that" go the extra mile, call them, talk to anyone you know in a related field, do the selection criteria, rewrite your CV, call them again, rewrite the selection criteria etc.
Going the extra mile will take a few days but it really helps for those truely awesome jobs, it's too much work to do every time though and you need those applications working through the system.Looking for work should be considered a full time job.
You would normally work over seven hours a day, try to use at least five hours a day to apply for jobs.
Some time also needs to be devoted to remaining positive to try and fend of depression</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650206</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652164</id>
	<title>Re:Here's The Problem.</title>
	<author>dbIII</author>
	<datestamp>1269785760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>While you look for a job, work on an open-source project. Having a recommendation from a well-known F/OSS guru can't hurt.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></div></blockquote><p>Even if you don't actually ask for the recommendation it does wonders for your confidence if you know that you could.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>While you look for a job , work on an open-source project .
Having a recommendation from a well-known F/OSS guru ca n't hurt .
: ) Even if you do n't actually ask for the recommendation it does wonders for your confidence if you know that you could .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While you look for a job, work on an open-source project.
Having a recommendation from a well-known F/OSS guru can't hurt.
:)Even if you don't actually ask for the recommendation it does wonders for your confidence if you know that you could.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650320</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650392</id>
	<title>you missed a few obvious things already</title>
	<author>picklepuss</author>
	<datestamp>1269771480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Step 1: When carping about not being able to find a job on slashdot, remember to tell people what programming languages you know.</p><p>Step 2: Make sure the name attached to your post links to something besides a couple of pages that haven't been updated in 2 years</p><p>Step 3: When fixing the above - start writing essays or blog entries on technology stuff that you know, so that when the quasi-decent HR rep googles your name, he'll be impressed with what he finds. In this day and age, that's one of the few ways you can "submit" a sample of your code.</p><p>Good advice was already stated about volunteering for OSS. Even if it doesn't help get you in the door somewhere, it'll at least hone your chops, which will help once you do get a job.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Step 1 : When carping about not being able to find a job on slashdot , remember to tell people what programming languages you know.Step 2 : Make sure the name attached to your post links to something besides a couple of pages that have n't been updated in 2 yearsStep 3 : When fixing the above - start writing essays or blog entries on technology stuff that you know , so that when the quasi-decent HR rep googles your name , he 'll be impressed with what he finds .
In this day and age , that 's one of the few ways you can " submit " a sample of your code.Good advice was already stated about volunteering for OSS .
Even if it does n't help get you in the door somewhere , it 'll at least hone your chops , which will help once you do get a job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Step 1: When carping about not being able to find a job on slashdot, remember to tell people what programming languages you know.Step 2: Make sure the name attached to your post links to something besides a couple of pages that haven't been updated in 2 yearsStep 3: When fixing the above - start writing essays or blog entries on technology stuff that you know, so that when the quasi-decent HR rep googles your name, he'll be impressed with what he finds.
In this day and age, that's one of the few ways you can "submit" a sample of your code.Good advice was already stated about volunteering for OSS.
Even if it doesn't help get you in the door somewhere, it'll at least hone your chops, which will help once you do get a job.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650596</id>
	<title>Re:Missing something</title>
	<author>lalena</author>
	<datestamp>1269772860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The social networking might be more of a problem for him. If the chemicaldave that submitted this story is the same one that posted this question on daniweb, then he is not getting a job in this market. Period.
<a href="http://www.daniweb.com/forums/post600287.html#post600287" title="daniweb.com">http://www.daniweb.com/forums/post600287.html#post600287</a> [daniweb.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>The social networking might be more of a problem for him .
If the chemicaldave that submitted this story is the same one that posted this question on daniweb , then he is not getting a job in this market .
Period . http : //www.daniweb.com/forums/post600287.html # post600287 [ daniweb.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The social networking might be more of a problem for him.
If the chemicaldave that submitted this story is the same one that posted this question on daniweb, then he is not getting a job in this market.
Period.
http://www.daniweb.com/forums/post600287.html#post600287 [daniweb.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650206</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31663688</id>
	<title>So you've been applying for Stephen Hawkings ...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269864300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>... job, and were rejected, just because you could walk and talk?</p><p>The world's not fair, these days<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>... job , and were rejected , just because you could walk and talk ? The world 's not fair , these days .. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... job, and were rejected, just because you could walk and talk?The world's not fair, these days ...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652884</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651394</id>
	<title>Consider an MS in Statistics</title>
	<author>rrhal</author>
	<datestamp>1269778440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>People who wrestle with statistics need programmers that understand how to get answers out of data like they need their livers.  See if you can't find a research assistanceship to support you for 2 years while you get an MS in Statistics.  You will have a reference with 2 years of programming on it when you leave school and probably some personal contacts in the "REAL" world.  This is a field that has job openings all over the world.</htmltext>
<tokenext>People who wrestle with statistics need programmers that understand how to get answers out of data like they need their livers .
See if you ca n't find a research assistanceship to support you for 2 years while you get an MS in Statistics .
You will have a reference with 2 years of programming on it when you leave school and probably some personal contacts in the " REAL " world .
This is a field that has job openings all over the world .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>People who wrestle with statistics need programmers that understand how to get answers out of data like they need their livers.
See if you can't find a research assistanceship to support you for 2 years while you get an MS in Statistics.
You will have a reference with 2 years of programming on it when you leave school and probably some personal contacts in the "REAL" world.
This is a field that has job openings all over the world.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650582</id>
	<title>Also</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269772800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Are you Indian?</p><p>Are you willing to move to India? Are you willing to accept local Indian renumeration levels?</p><p>If you can say yes to the above, I see a great future for you.<br>
&nbsp;</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Are you Indian ? Are you willing to move to India ?
Are you willing to accept local Indian renumeration levels ? If you can say yes to the above , I see a great future for you .
 </tokentext>
<sentencetext>Are you Indian?Are you willing to move to India?
Are you willing to accept local Indian renumeration levels?If you can say yes to the above, I see a great future for you.
 </sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650362</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31657534</id>
	<title>Re:Proof that our economy is fundamentally broken</title>
	<author>HeckRuler</author>
	<datestamp>1269879060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I hear there's some entry level positions at the soylent factory. High-fiber a plus!</htmltext>
<tokenext>I hear there 's some entry level positions at the soylent factory .
High-fiber a plus !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I hear there's some entry level positions at the soylent factory.
High-fiber a plus!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651322</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651324</id>
	<title>Re:It is not a great time</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269777900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The trouble with what you did is that the the guy with 12yrs experience and glowing reviews was surely not looking for an entry level position... he only applied and accepted because he needed a paycheck and had obviously not found a job at his real experience/salary level. I'd be AMAZED if he doesn't keep looking and quit your job as soon as he has found a better one.</p><p>If you'd hired a fresh grad or someone with a year or two's experience they could have grown with the position and maybe ended up making a long term career at your company.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The trouble with what you did is that the the guy with 12yrs experience and glowing reviews was surely not looking for an entry level position... he only applied and accepted because he needed a paycheck and had obviously not found a job at his real experience/salary level .
I 'd be AMAZED if he does n't keep looking and quit your job as soon as he has found a better one.If you 'd hired a fresh grad or someone with a year or two 's experience they could have grown with the position and maybe ended up making a long term career at your company .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The trouble with what you did is that the the guy with 12yrs experience and glowing reviews was surely not looking for an entry level position... he only applied and accepted because he needed a paycheck and had obviously not found a job at his real experience/salary level.
I'd be AMAZED if he doesn't keep looking and quit your job as soon as he has found a better one.If you'd hired a fresh grad or someone with a year or two's experience they could have grown with the position and maybe ended up making a long term career at your company.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650316</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651722</id>
	<title>Listen carefully to all the advice on job hunting</title>
	<author>w0mprat</author>
	<datestamp>1269781080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Listen carefully to all of the advice you get given by people on job hunting. Because that's what you should duly ignore.<br> <br>
I can't think how much conflicting advice I've had from know it alls on getting a job, but every time I've nailed a job interview I've done it with merely good enough resume and showing up on time in a shirt and tie. There are a couple of points that make the difference however:<br> <br>
1. I've actually been a good fit for the job, known that, and sincerely wanted it, but was not recklessly optimistic and bubbling self-deluded enthusiasm. You know what I mean, try not to be one of those twits who can't sing in Idol auditions, be one of the cool-headed polite folk who can actually hit a note.<br> <br>
2. I've not come accross as a stuck-up wuckfit in the job interview. Don't reherse, you'll sound rehersed. Don't over-prepare, you'll sound over-prepared. If you can't just sit there and naturally answer questions off the top of your head then you're probably not right for the job.
<br> <br>
If you are being interviewed by people you are going to be working for, you need to get on with them comfortably.
That's a huge one.<br> <br>
<i>If your a cultural fit for the workplace you are likely to be hired.</i> I believe this applies very strongly to IT. Infact ignore my advice too.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Listen carefully to all of the advice you get given by people on job hunting .
Because that 's what you should duly ignore .
I ca n't think how much conflicting advice I 've had from know it alls on getting a job , but every time I 've nailed a job interview I 've done it with merely good enough resume and showing up on time in a shirt and tie .
There are a couple of points that make the difference however : 1 .
I 've actually been a good fit for the job , known that , and sincerely wanted it , but was not recklessly optimistic and bubbling self-deluded enthusiasm .
You know what I mean , try not to be one of those twits who ca n't sing in Idol auditions , be one of the cool-headed polite folk who can actually hit a note .
2. I 've not come accross as a stuck-up wuckfit in the job interview .
Do n't reherse , you 'll sound rehersed .
Do n't over-prepare , you 'll sound over-prepared .
If you ca n't just sit there and naturally answer questions off the top of your head then you 're probably not right for the job .
If you are being interviewed by people you are going to be working for , you need to get on with them comfortably .
That 's a huge one .
If your a cultural fit for the workplace you are likely to be hired .
I believe this applies very strongly to IT .
Infact ignore my advice too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Listen carefully to all of the advice you get given by people on job hunting.
Because that's what you should duly ignore.
I can't think how much conflicting advice I've had from know it alls on getting a job, but every time I've nailed a job interview I've done it with merely good enough resume and showing up on time in a shirt and tie.
There are a couple of points that make the difference however: 
1.
I've actually been a good fit for the job, known that, and sincerely wanted it, but was not recklessly optimistic and bubbling self-deluded enthusiasm.
You know what I mean, try not to be one of those twits who can't sing in Idol auditions, be one of the cool-headed polite folk who can actually hit a note.
2. I've not come accross as a stuck-up wuckfit in the job interview.
Don't reherse, you'll sound rehersed.
Don't over-prepare, you'll sound over-prepared.
If you can't just sit there and naturally answer questions off the top of your head then you're probably not right for the job.
If you are being interviewed by people you are going to be working for, you need to get on with them comfortably.
That's a huge one.
If your a cultural fit for the workplace you are likely to be hired.
I believe this applies very strongly to IT.
Infact ignore my advice too.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31654440</id>
	<title>Preparation is the key</title>
	<author>kiwiron</author>
	<datestamp>1269855180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've been on both sides of the interview table, and have seen a number of candidates fail through poor preparation. <br>

Try a few simple strategies:
<ol>
  <li>If applying for a J2EE position, research the technologies (e.g. JSF, Spring MVC, Struts 2 etc) and say so on your resume. Same applies to any other technology stack.</li><li>If you get an interview, bring along a working example on your laptop, and do a SHORT demonstration. If its a PHP job, the demo should be in PHP/MySQL etc. If its J2EE, JSF, Hibernate and MySQL would a good combination.</li><li>Explain what your demo does at a business level. Forget that whizzy feature that you spent days developing - if the audience can't understand what you are doing, they won't be at all impressed. As developers, we have an unfortunate tendency to assume that everyone knows the  high-level design, and are interested in the minutae. But generally, employers are  looking for people that both program and communicate with non-technical types. A lucid explanation at the business level will earn you brownie points.</li><li>Keep it simple - a pizza ordering website might be a good example. Even our HR people eat pizza.</li><li>Explain the functionality, not the detail (e.g. "Pizzas can be ordered by text message" rather than "I used an activeX control from Bloggs Technology to implement SMS ordering")</li><li>Read widely, follow newsgroups, and keep your skills up to date. You may not know the details, but if someons asks if you know what something is, it is good to be able to answer along the lines of "thats an emerging programming language. I'm no expert, but it looks it may be the replacement for Java in a few years time". For instance, can you give an outline of what the following are (excuse the Java bias and a few obsolete technologies): Scala, Ruby on rails, Apache Cocoon, AJAX, JQuery, STRUTS, B2B, EAI, COBOL, DMA</li><li>Research the firm's technologies. An inside contact would be invaluable, but if you are applying for a web programming job, a few minutes on the company website should tell you if they use J2EE, ASP, ASP.NET or PHP. If not, then maybe the job is not for you.</li><li>Take a good look at what the company does, and make sure it fits with your personal values. It will show through at the interview if you are bored by or opposed to the company direction. Having lost parents to lung cancer, there is no way I would work for a tobacco company.</li><li>Listen to what the interviewers are saying, take time to digest it, then give a reasoned answer.</li><li>Be prepared for the standard HR questions (e.g. "What would you do if you could not agree with a co-worker's decision on something imortant", "Where do you see yourself in 5 years time" etc). There are lots of good websites that will help here.</li><li>Be yourself - thats what is being hired.</li><li>Even if desperate for the job, try not to show it. Hiring people is a two-way process. The company wants someone who fits in, and will make a long-term positive contribution, not a low salary "doormat" that will leave as soon as a better offer turns up.</li><li>It always impresses me to find that a candidate has outside interests. I personally landed a job on the strength of having some accounting knowledge. This came from being a club treasurer for several years. There are those who hire geeks, but most firms want real people.</li><li><p>
Above all, good luck.</p></li></ol></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've been on both sides of the interview table , and have seen a number of candidates fail through poor preparation .
Try a few simple strategies : If applying for a J2EE position , research the technologies ( e.g .
JSF , Spring MVC , Struts 2 etc ) and say so on your resume .
Same applies to any other technology stack.If you get an interview , bring along a working example on your laptop , and do a SHORT demonstration .
If its a PHP job , the demo should be in PHP/MySQL etc .
If its J2EE , JSF , Hibernate and MySQL would a good combination.Explain what your demo does at a business level .
Forget that whizzy feature that you spent days developing - if the audience ca n't understand what you are doing , they wo n't be at all impressed .
As developers , we have an unfortunate tendency to assume that everyone knows the high-level design , and are interested in the minutae .
But generally , employers are looking for people that both program and communicate with non-technical types .
A lucid explanation at the business level will earn you brownie points.Keep it simple - a pizza ordering website might be a good example .
Even our HR people eat pizza.Explain the functionality , not the detail ( e.g .
" Pizzas can be ordered by text message " rather than " I used an activeX control from Bloggs Technology to implement SMS ordering " ) Read widely , follow newsgroups , and keep your skills up to date .
You may not know the details , but if someons asks if you know what something is , it is good to be able to answer along the lines of " thats an emerging programming language .
I 'm no expert , but it looks it may be the replacement for Java in a few years time " .
For instance , can you give an outline of what the following are ( excuse the Java bias and a few obsolete technologies ) : Scala , Ruby on rails , Apache Cocoon , AJAX , JQuery , STRUTS , B2B , EAI , COBOL , DMAResearch the firm 's technologies .
An inside contact would be invaluable , but if you are applying for a web programming job , a few minutes on the company website should tell you if they use J2EE , ASP , ASP.NET or PHP .
If not , then maybe the job is not for you.Take a good look at what the company does , and make sure it fits with your personal values .
It will show through at the interview if you are bored by or opposed to the company direction .
Having lost parents to lung cancer , there is no way I would work for a tobacco company.Listen to what the interviewers are saying , take time to digest it , then give a reasoned answer.Be prepared for the standard HR questions ( e.g .
" What would you do if you could not agree with a co-worker 's decision on something imortant " , " Where do you see yourself in 5 years time " etc ) .
There are lots of good websites that will help here.Be yourself - thats what is being hired.Even if desperate for the job , try not to show it .
Hiring people is a two-way process .
The company wants someone who fits in , and will make a long-term positive contribution , not a low salary " doormat " that will leave as soon as a better offer turns up.It always impresses me to find that a candidate has outside interests .
I personally landed a job on the strength of having some accounting knowledge .
This came from being a club treasurer for several years .
There are those who hire geeks , but most firms want real people .
Above all , good luck .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've been on both sides of the interview table, and have seen a number of candidates fail through poor preparation.
Try a few simple strategies:

  If applying for a J2EE position, research the technologies (e.g.
JSF, Spring MVC, Struts 2 etc) and say so on your resume.
Same applies to any other technology stack.If you get an interview, bring along a working example on your laptop, and do a SHORT demonstration.
If its a PHP job, the demo should be in PHP/MySQL etc.
If its J2EE, JSF, Hibernate and MySQL would a good combination.Explain what your demo does at a business level.
Forget that whizzy feature that you spent days developing - if the audience can't understand what you are doing, they won't be at all impressed.
As developers, we have an unfortunate tendency to assume that everyone knows the  high-level design, and are interested in the minutae.
But generally, employers are  looking for people that both program and communicate with non-technical types.
A lucid explanation at the business level will earn you brownie points.Keep it simple - a pizza ordering website might be a good example.
Even our HR people eat pizza.Explain the functionality, not the detail (e.g.
"Pizzas can be ordered by text message" rather than "I used an activeX control from Bloggs Technology to implement SMS ordering")Read widely, follow newsgroups, and keep your skills up to date.
You may not know the details, but if someons asks if you know what something is, it is good to be able to answer along the lines of "thats an emerging programming language.
I'm no expert, but it looks it may be the replacement for Java in a few years time".
For instance, can you give an outline of what the following are (excuse the Java bias and a few obsolete technologies): Scala, Ruby on rails, Apache Cocoon, AJAX, JQuery, STRUTS, B2B, EAI, COBOL, DMAResearch the firm's technologies.
An inside contact would be invaluable, but if you are applying for a web programming job, a few minutes on the company website should tell you if they use J2EE, ASP, ASP.NET or PHP.
If not, then maybe the job is not for you.Take a good look at what the company does, and make sure it fits with your personal values.
It will show through at the interview if you are bored by or opposed to the company direction.
Having lost parents to lung cancer, there is no way I would work for a tobacco company.Listen to what the interviewers are saying, take time to digest it, then give a reasoned answer.Be prepared for the standard HR questions (e.g.
"What would you do if you could not agree with a co-worker's decision on something imortant", "Where do you see yourself in 5 years time" etc).
There are lots of good websites that will help here.Be yourself - thats what is being hired.Even if desperate for the job, try not to show it.
Hiring people is a two-way process.
The company wants someone who fits in, and will make a long-term positive contribution, not a low salary "doormat" that will leave as soon as a better offer turns up.It always impresses me to find that a candidate has outside interests.
I personally landed a job on the strength of having some accounting knowledge.
This came from being a club treasurer for several years.
There are those who hire geeks, but most firms want real people.
Above all, good luck.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650320</id>
	<title>Here's The Problem.</title>
	<author>smpoole7</author>
	<datestamp>1269770940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm in broadcast engineering, which includes some programming, but is not programming-specific. I'll let some of those folks address your concerns directly. But speaking in general and in no particular order:</p><p>1. Maybe you should have gone to a different school, even if it meant relocating. An internship would have given you some valuable experience, and if you're really good, would probably have resulted in permanent employment afterward.</p><p>2. Look at small companies instead of the big ones. Offer to work for beans and rice until you can demonstrate that you know what you're doing. It'll pay off in the long run.</p><p>3. While you look for a job, work on an open-source project. Having a recommendation from a well-known F/OSS guru can't hurt.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p><p>4. Once you get the chance, I can't emphasize this strongly enough: PROVE TO ME THAT YOU REALLY WANT THE JOB. Think outside the box. Be willing to go the extra mile. Don't sit in your chair playing Solitaire waiting for me to tell you what to do next. Show initiative.</p><p>Back when I was a teenager, I got my first job in radio by hanging around the station constantly. I took out the trash. I annoyed the engineer and asked a thousand questions. I was willing to do anything to prove that I wanted the job.</p><p>I'm not boasting; that's just common sense. But contrast that with an intern who tried out with me a couple of years ago. Unless I stayed on him, he did indeed sit and play Solitaire. When the HVAC went out in the studios, he got up from his job as a call screener for one of our talk shows and said, "it's just too hot. I'll be back tomorrow" -- which left us scrambling for someone to cover his slot.</p><p>He still calls from time to time and is amazed that we won't hire him. No, I'm not kidding.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm in broadcast engineering , which includes some programming , but is not programming-specific .
I 'll let some of those folks address your concerns directly .
But speaking in general and in no particular order : 1 .
Maybe you should have gone to a different school , even if it meant relocating .
An internship would have given you some valuable experience , and if you 're really good , would probably have resulted in permanent employment afterward.2 .
Look at small companies instead of the big ones .
Offer to work for beans and rice until you can demonstrate that you know what you 're doing .
It 'll pay off in the long run.3 .
While you look for a job , work on an open-source project .
Having a recommendation from a well-known F/OSS guru ca n't hurt .
: ) 4. Once you get the chance , I ca n't emphasize this strongly enough : PROVE TO ME THAT YOU REALLY WANT THE JOB .
Think outside the box .
Be willing to go the extra mile .
Do n't sit in your chair playing Solitaire waiting for me to tell you what to do next .
Show initiative.Back when I was a teenager , I got my first job in radio by hanging around the station constantly .
I took out the trash .
I annoyed the engineer and asked a thousand questions .
I was willing to do anything to prove that I wanted the job.I 'm not boasting ; that 's just common sense .
But contrast that with an intern who tried out with me a couple of years ago .
Unless I stayed on him , he did indeed sit and play Solitaire .
When the HVAC went out in the studios , he got up from his job as a call screener for one of our talk shows and said , " it 's just too hot .
I 'll be back tomorrow " -- which left us scrambling for someone to cover his slot.He still calls from time to time and is amazed that we wo n't hire him .
No , I 'm not kidding .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm in broadcast engineering, which includes some programming, but is not programming-specific.
I'll let some of those folks address your concerns directly.
But speaking in general and in no particular order:1.
Maybe you should have gone to a different school, even if it meant relocating.
An internship would have given you some valuable experience, and if you're really good, would probably have resulted in permanent employment afterward.2.
Look at small companies instead of the big ones.
Offer to work for beans and rice until you can demonstrate that you know what you're doing.
It'll pay off in the long run.3.
While you look for a job, work on an open-source project.
Having a recommendation from a well-known F/OSS guru can't hurt.
:)4. Once you get the chance, I can't emphasize this strongly enough: PROVE TO ME THAT YOU REALLY WANT THE JOB.
Think outside the box.
Be willing to go the extra mile.
Don't sit in your chair playing Solitaire waiting for me to tell you what to do next.
Show initiative.Back when I was a teenager, I got my first job in radio by hanging around the station constantly.
I took out the trash.
I annoyed the engineer and asked a thousand questions.
I was willing to do anything to prove that I wanted the job.I'm not boasting; that's just common sense.
But contrast that with an intern who tried out with me a couple of years ago.
Unless I stayed on him, he did indeed sit and play Solitaire.
When the HVAC went out in the studios, he got up from his job as a call screener for one of our talk shows and said, "it's just too hot.
I'll be back tomorrow" -- which left us scrambling for someone to cover his slot.He still calls from time to time and is amazed that we won't hire him.
No, I'm not kidding.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652884</id>
	<title>Try being disabled and try to get to the manager</title>
	<author>crovira</author>
	<datestamp>1269793440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I swear these c*cks*ckers shred your resume as soon as they can when they find out you can't dance the Charleston.</p><p>Donald Knuth couldn't get a job nowadays cause he too old and Nicolas Wirth couldn't either because "he talks funny."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I swear these c * cks * ckers shred your resume as soon as they can when they find out you ca n't dance the Charleston.Donald Knuth could n't get a job nowadays cause he too old and Nicolas Wirth could n't either because " he talks funny .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I swear these c*cks*ckers shred your resume as soon as they can when they find out you can't dance the Charleston.Donald Knuth couldn't get a job nowadays cause he too old and Nicolas Wirth couldn't either because "he talks funny.
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650698</id>
	<title>Re:Missing something</title>
	<author>PopeRatzo</author>
	<datestamp>1269773580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>It appears that you missed some level of social networking during school.</p></div> </blockquote><p>You can't beat being really good at what you do for getting jobs.  It's almost magic!</p><p>Also, it helps if you're not a dick and you don't smell bad.  People don't like hiring or working with dicks or people who reek.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It appears that you missed some level of social networking during school .
You ca n't beat being really good at what you do for getting jobs .
It 's almost magic ! Also , it helps if you 're not a dick and you do n't smell bad .
People do n't like hiring or working with dicks or people who reek .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It appears that you missed some level of social networking during school.
You can't beat being really good at what you do for getting jobs.
It's almost magic!Also, it helps if you're not a dick and you don't smell bad.
People don't like hiring or working with dicks or people who reek.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650206</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31656226</id>
	<title>Re:show off your programming skills</title>
	<author>Aikar</author>
	<datestamp>1269873600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I guess I feel lucky, I didn't even meet anyone from HR until my first day.

My managers of our group is the ones who interviewed me. And at a previous job before this job, all the developers were in the interview too.

But some tips on how I landed this job, show commitment. Show them your the kind of guy that rather be programming some personal project at midnight on a Friday night instead of clubbing.

Show them quality and quickness is your goals. And as I really like to break it down, show them you are NOT a career developers.

I really boil devs down to 2 classifications, career developers and real developers. Career being the ones who went to college for it just to get a nice job. they don't care about doing an excellent job, they just want to do the bare minimum, and when they leave the office, never touch programming again until they are back in the office.

Show them you are NOT one of those kind of people. Show passion for what you do.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I guess I feel lucky , I did n't even meet anyone from HR until my first day .
My managers of our group is the ones who interviewed me .
And at a previous job before this job , all the developers were in the interview too .
But some tips on how I landed this job , show commitment .
Show them your the kind of guy that rather be programming some personal project at midnight on a Friday night instead of clubbing .
Show them quality and quickness is your goals .
And as I really like to break it down , show them you are NOT a career developers .
I really boil devs down to 2 classifications , career developers and real developers .
Career being the ones who went to college for it just to get a nice job .
they do n't care about doing an excellent job , they just want to do the bare minimum , and when they leave the office , never touch programming again until they are back in the office .
Show them you are NOT one of those kind of people .
Show passion for what you do .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I guess I feel lucky, I didn't even meet anyone from HR until my first day.
My managers of our group is the ones who interviewed me.
And at a previous job before this job, all the developers were in the interview too.
But some tips on how I landed this job, show commitment.
Show them your the kind of guy that rather be programming some personal project at midnight on a Friday night instead of clubbing.
Show them quality and quickness is your goals.
And as I really like to break it down, show them you are NOT a career developers.
I really boil devs down to 2 classifications, career developers and real developers.
Career being the ones who went to college for it just to get a nice job.
they don't care about doing an excellent job, they just want to do the bare minimum, and when they leave the office, never touch programming again until they are back in the office.
Show them you are NOT one of those kind of people.
Show passion for what you do.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650338</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651488</id>
	<title>agency suck and they try to push you into any job</title>
	<author>Joe The Dragon</author>
	<datestamp>1269779040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>agency suck and they try to push you into any job even it's just like a bit in your field just to last one day on the job just to be told your not fit for this job.</p><p>There are also ones that will have you work one day just to say we have to many people on the job.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>agency suck and they try to push you into any job even it 's just like a bit in your field just to last one day on the job just to be told your not fit for this job.There are also ones that will have you work one day just to say we have to many people on the job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>agency suck and they try to push you into any job even it's just like a bit in your field just to last one day on the job just to be told your not fit for this job.There are also ones that will have you work one day just to say we have to many people on the job.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651414</id>
	<title>SOFU</title>
	<author>asdf7890</author>
	<datestamp>1269778560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As well as the options already mentioned (including in my own posts above), one extra thing you can try for CV/application "fodder" is to take part in sites like stackoverflow, superuser and serverfault. If you can earn a good "reputation" on one or more of those sites it could be worth mentioning that you are an active member and dropping your user name. I'm on page one of two of those sites user-listing-ordered-by-rep pages, though mainly because I'm a sad social inadequate with too much free time of an evening rather than because I'm trying to get my name out there (as I'm currently gainfully employed and "safe" for the foreseeable future) so I've not tested the "helpful to mention on a CV or in an interview" theory yet, but having a good rep on such sites shouldn't harm you (unless your post history makes it obvious you were browsing those sites helping others when you should have been concentrating on your current/previous employer's problems!) and may shine a beneficial light on you if the prospective employer bothers to check and likes the tone and technical quality of your participation.</p><p>I would not pursue this as a first line of course, but if you have some free time on your hands and nothing else practical to do with that time... If nothing else you might learn something useful yourself - I've have a few "oh, that's an interesting point/idea" moments from responses to questions that relate to my areas of interest.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As well as the options already mentioned ( including in my own posts above ) , one extra thing you can try for CV/application " fodder " is to take part in sites like stackoverflow , superuser and serverfault .
If you can earn a good " reputation " on one or more of those sites it could be worth mentioning that you are an active member and dropping your user name .
I 'm on page one of two of those sites user-listing-ordered-by-rep pages , though mainly because I 'm a sad social inadequate with too much free time of an evening rather than because I 'm trying to get my name out there ( as I 'm currently gainfully employed and " safe " for the foreseeable future ) so I 've not tested the " helpful to mention on a CV or in an interview " theory yet , but having a good rep on such sites should n't harm you ( unless your post history makes it obvious you were browsing those sites helping others when you should have been concentrating on your current/previous employer 's problems !
) and may shine a beneficial light on you if the prospective employer bothers to check and likes the tone and technical quality of your participation.I would not pursue this as a first line of course , but if you have some free time on your hands and nothing else practical to do with that time... If nothing else you might learn something useful yourself - I 've have a few " oh , that 's an interesting point/idea " moments from responses to questions that relate to my areas of interest .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As well as the options already mentioned (including in my own posts above), one extra thing you can try for CV/application "fodder" is to take part in sites like stackoverflow, superuser and serverfault.
If you can earn a good "reputation" on one or more of those sites it could be worth mentioning that you are an active member and dropping your user name.
I'm on page one of two of those sites user-listing-ordered-by-rep pages, though mainly because I'm a sad social inadequate with too much free time of an evening rather than because I'm trying to get my name out there (as I'm currently gainfully employed and "safe" for the foreseeable future) so I've not tested the "helpful to mention on a CV or in an interview" theory yet, but having a good rep on such sites shouldn't harm you (unless your post history makes it obvious you were browsing those sites helping others when you should have been concentrating on your current/previous employer's problems!
) and may shine a beneficial light on you if the prospective employer bothers to check and likes the tone and technical quality of your participation.I would not pursue this as a first line of course, but if you have some free time on your hands and nothing else practical to do with that time... If nothing else you might learn something useful yourself - I've have a few "oh, that's an interesting point/idea" moments from responses to questions that relate to my areas of interest.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652102</id>
	<title>Re:To that I'll add</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269784980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm a prof., and I can attest to everything the parent said.

</p><p>I can also attest to everything the OP said. I know, because I, like the submitter, screwed it all up. I thought my friends who were "working for free" at internships were crazy. They all got jobs--usually the same job they were doing for free--immediately after graduating. Me? No. I did not. I graduated in the top 10\% of my class and am bilingual, but I couldn't get a job. This went on for years (I was working crap jobs), until I figured out that, although I think the business world is lazy as shit in that they refuse to train people anymore (I live in Japan; the companies here hire smart kids and turn them into whatever they need), that's the way it is. The problem was me, not them.

</p><p>So I looked at my academic record and realized that the only people who cared about it were other academics, and that the way out was through. I went back to school, and here I am: a prof. at a very prestigious university. But I got here by paying a lot of money and working for free for years and years. --I just don't think there is any way around that anymore. The "entry level position" is a myth.

</p><p>I tell all my students to get internships now. I tell them how I ended up standing before them. I like my job, don't get me wrong, but I ended up here because I didn't do the things I needed to do to go anywhere else.

</p><p>There is a fundamental lie that we tell young people: Go to college and you will get a good job. That just is not true. I have a close friend who <i>dropped out of high school</i> and is a very successful developer. He's very, very smart, and wears that lack of even a diploma as a badge of honor. But he got where he is today by working a lot of terrible jobs--starting by building PCs at a Mom &amp; Pop white box shop in a strip mall--and honing his skills. It took a long time. It always takes a long time.

</p><p>I'd like to add something to the parent's point, though. The "go to college, get a good job" is a <i>cum hoc ergo propter hoc</i> fallacy (i.e. correlation does not imply causation). In the old days, only the idle rich could go to university, and they were largely finishing schools. That's why we still have total bullshit like literature degrees at 4 year institutions (I like books, but getting a 4-year degree in book reports is nuts). So those people didn't need jobs, or might be installed at the family business as some titular boss when they finished. However, if you were a really smart cookie from the lower classes, you might be able to go to university on scholarship. You might <i>earn</i> your way in. Once in, you were suddenly rubbing elbows with the ruling class, and one of your mates was virtually guaranteed to talk his dad into hiring you. Even if that didn't happen, when you graduated, someone would hire you because, "OMG you have a <i>degree???"</i> This is <b>because they were rare.</b> They are not rare anymore. It would be different if you went to an Ivy League school--that would at least get you an interview--but you didn't (that's the other thing I've learned since being "in the industry"--name value is everything; there's almost no point in going to a school that is not well-known--I work with a complete moron, but he went to the same Ivy League school as our boss, so he's in).

</p><p>So here's what you're looking at: You have no experience, no name value, and you don't know anyone. You have a random bachelor's just like everybody else. <b>You are not getting a "real" job anytime soon.</b> You're not. It's not going to happen. The sooner you make peace with that, the better. You need to get some experience, and that is going to mean doing it for free, probably. I'm sorry, but it's true.

</p><p>Good luck.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm a prof. , and I can attest to everything the parent said .
I can also attest to everything the OP said .
I know , because I , like the submitter , screwed it all up .
I thought my friends who were " working for free " at internships were crazy .
They all got jobs--usually the same job they were doing for free--immediately after graduating .
Me ? No .
I did not .
I graduated in the top 10 \ % of my class and am bilingual , but I could n't get a job .
This went on for years ( I was working crap jobs ) , until I figured out that , although I think the business world is lazy as shit in that they refuse to train people anymore ( I live in Japan ; the companies here hire smart kids and turn them into whatever they need ) , that 's the way it is .
The problem was me , not them .
So I looked at my academic record and realized that the only people who cared about it were other academics , and that the way out was through .
I went back to school , and here I am : a prof. at a very prestigious university .
But I got here by paying a lot of money and working for free for years and years .
--I just do n't think there is any way around that anymore .
The " entry level position " is a myth .
I tell all my students to get internships now .
I tell them how I ended up standing before them .
I like my job , do n't get me wrong , but I ended up here because I did n't do the things I needed to do to go anywhere else .
There is a fundamental lie that we tell young people : Go to college and you will get a good job .
That just is not true .
I have a close friend who dropped out of high school and is a very successful developer .
He 's very , very smart , and wears that lack of even a diploma as a badge of honor .
But he got where he is today by working a lot of terrible jobs--starting by building PCs at a Mom &amp; Pop white box shop in a strip mall--and honing his skills .
It took a long time .
It always takes a long time .
I 'd like to add something to the parent 's point , though .
The " go to college , get a good job " is a cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy ( i.e .
correlation does not imply causation ) .
In the old days , only the idle rich could go to university , and they were largely finishing schools .
That 's why we still have total bullshit like literature degrees at 4 year institutions ( I like books , but getting a 4-year degree in book reports is nuts ) .
So those people did n't need jobs , or might be installed at the family business as some titular boss when they finished .
However , if you were a really smart cookie from the lower classes , you might be able to go to university on scholarship .
You might earn your way in .
Once in , you were suddenly rubbing elbows with the ruling class , and one of your mates was virtually guaranteed to talk his dad into hiring you .
Even if that did n't happen , when you graduated , someone would hire you because , " OMG you have a degree ? ? ?
" This is because they were rare .
They are not rare anymore .
It would be different if you went to an Ivy League school--that would at least get you an interview--but you did n't ( that 's the other thing I 've learned since being " in the industry " --name value is everything ; there 's almost no point in going to a school that is not well-known--I work with a complete moron , but he went to the same Ivy League school as our boss , so he 's in ) .
So here 's what you 're looking at : You have no experience , no name value , and you do n't know anyone .
You have a random bachelor 's just like everybody else .
You are not getting a " real " job anytime soon .
You 're not .
It 's not going to happen .
The sooner you make peace with that , the better .
You need to get some experience , and that is going to mean doing it for free , probably .
I 'm sorry , but it 's true .
Good luck .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm a prof., and I can attest to everything the parent said.
I can also attest to everything the OP said.
I know, because I, like the submitter, screwed it all up.
I thought my friends who were "working for free" at internships were crazy.
They all got jobs--usually the same job they were doing for free--immediately after graduating.
Me? No.
I did not.
I graduated in the top 10\% of my class and am bilingual, but I couldn't get a job.
This went on for years (I was working crap jobs), until I figured out that, although I think the business world is lazy as shit in that they refuse to train people anymore (I live in Japan; the companies here hire smart kids and turn them into whatever they need), that's the way it is.
The problem was me, not them.
So I looked at my academic record and realized that the only people who cared about it were other academics, and that the way out was through.
I went back to school, and here I am: a prof. at a very prestigious university.
But I got here by paying a lot of money and working for free for years and years.
--I just don't think there is any way around that anymore.
The "entry level position" is a myth.
I tell all my students to get internships now.
I tell them how I ended up standing before them.
I like my job, don't get me wrong, but I ended up here because I didn't do the things I needed to do to go anywhere else.
There is a fundamental lie that we tell young people: Go to college and you will get a good job.
That just is not true.
I have a close friend who dropped out of high school and is a very successful developer.
He's very, very smart, and wears that lack of even a diploma as a badge of honor.
But he got where he is today by working a lot of terrible jobs--starting by building PCs at a Mom &amp; Pop white box shop in a strip mall--and honing his skills.
It took a long time.
It always takes a long time.
I'd like to add something to the parent's point, though.
The "go to college, get a good job" is a cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy (i.e.
correlation does not imply causation).
In the old days, only the idle rich could go to university, and they were largely finishing schools.
That's why we still have total bullshit like literature degrees at 4 year institutions (I like books, but getting a 4-year degree in book reports is nuts).
So those people didn't need jobs, or might be installed at the family business as some titular boss when they finished.
However, if you were a really smart cookie from the lower classes, you might be able to go to university on scholarship.
You might earn your way in.
Once in, you were suddenly rubbing elbows with the ruling class, and one of your mates was virtually guaranteed to talk his dad into hiring you.
Even if that didn't happen, when you graduated, someone would hire you because, "OMG you have a degree???
" This is because they were rare.
They are not rare anymore.
It would be different if you went to an Ivy League school--that would at least get you an interview--but you didn't (that's the other thing I've learned since being "in the industry"--name value is everything; there's almost no point in going to a school that is not well-known--I work with a complete moron, but he went to the same Ivy League school as our boss, so he's in).
So here's what you're looking at: You have no experience, no name value, and you don't know anyone.
You have a random bachelor's just like everybody else.
You are not getting a "real" job anytime soon.
You're not.
It's not going to happen.
The sooner you make peace with that, the better.
You need to get some experience, and that is going to mean doing it for free, probably.
I'm sorry, but it's true.
Good luck.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650704</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652504</id>
	<title>Welcome to the Real World</title>
	<author>endus</author>
	<datestamp>1269788940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You're leaving school and entering the real world.  Being "able to program" in school and able to program in the real world are two completely different things.  You don't know shit about shit right now.  Colleget gives you a few basic tools and shows that you can get in-depth on a subject...in terms of what you can actually do for a company it's more or less meaningless.<br> <br>

You're also getting out of college and entering the job market during one of the worst economic downturns in recent history.  Get used to applying for jobs and hearing nothing back.  There are people with far more programming experience as well as just general work experience (the value of which you have probably not realized yet) who are getting the same replies...or lack of replies...from these companies.  There are probably people with experience applying for the same entry level jobs you are because they are desperate.  That's bad news for you.<br> <br>

Long story short: get used to getting nothing back.  The problem isn't that the evil HR people are a barrier to you showing these companies how useful you could be to them, its that you have no experience at all and you're not worth hiring.  Do anything you can to get noticed...apply online, send paper resumes, make sure you have a great cover letter, follow up with a phone call.  If your communication skills are poor, you better get someone to help you with that.  Your resume and cover letter should be ABSOLUTELY perfect...grammatically perfect, perfect formatting, and specifically targeted to each job you apply to.  Persistence is your only weapon right now.  If you have co-op/internship experience then that's great.  If not, you're up against thousands of people who do have it.  Remember, in times like this recruiters and HR people have a MASSIVE flood of resumes coming in.  More than you can imagine.  What makes yours so special?  What makes you stand out from all those others?  If the answer is nothing, better get used to flipping burgers until things get better.<br> <br>

If you're getting interviews with HR and then not getting callbacks, it might be time to brush up on your interviewing skills.  In a job market like this NOTHING can be taken for granted.  Remember that you are up against hundreds and hundreds of others for every single job.  How well does that suit fit?<br> <br>

The winning strategy in the short term may be to take any damn job you can get...especially if its in the computer industry...no matter how shitty it may be.<br> <br>

Sorry to be so gloom and doom, but I'm just telling you the truth.  I was out for a year when the tech bubble burst in 2001 so I have been there.  I was a year out of school (i.e. I was cheap) with a year of experience that not many college grads would have, as well as co-op experience, and I couldn't get hired to save my life.  My one final word of advice is not to believe ANYTHING a third party recruiter tells you.  Confirm everything they say with the company directly before agreeing to anything.  Those recruiters are sleazeballs of the worst kind and will lie to your face.  Be very careful dealing with them.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're leaving school and entering the real world .
Being " able to program " in school and able to program in the real world are two completely different things .
You do n't know shit about shit right now .
Colleget gives you a few basic tools and shows that you can get in-depth on a subject...in terms of what you can actually do for a company it 's more or less meaningless .
You 're also getting out of college and entering the job market during one of the worst economic downturns in recent history .
Get used to applying for jobs and hearing nothing back .
There are people with far more programming experience as well as just general work experience ( the value of which you have probably not realized yet ) who are getting the same replies...or lack of replies...from these companies .
There are probably people with experience applying for the same entry level jobs you are because they are desperate .
That 's bad news for you .
Long story short : get used to getting nothing back .
The problem is n't that the evil HR people are a barrier to you showing these companies how useful you could be to them , its that you have no experience at all and you 're not worth hiring .
Do anything you can to get noticed...apply online , send paper resumes , make sure you have a great cover letter , follow up with a phone call .
If your communication skills are poor , you better get someone to help you with that .
Your resume and cover letter should be ABSOLUTELY perfect...grammatically perfect , perfect formatting , and specifically targeted to each job you apply to .
Persistence is your only weapon right now .
If you have co-op/internship experience then that 's great .
If not , you 're up against thousands of people who do have it .
Remember , in times like this recruiters and HR people have a MASSIVE flood of resumes coming in .
More than you can imagine .
What makes yours so special ?
What makes you stand out from all those others ?
If the answer is nothing , better get used to flipping burgers until things get better .
If you 're getting interviews with HR and then not getting callbacks , it might be time to brush up on your interviewing skills .
In a job market like this NOTHING can be taken for granted .
Remember that you are up against hundreds and hundreds of others for every single job .
How well does that suit fit ?
The winning strategy in the short term may be to take any damn job you can get...especially if its in the computer industry...no matter how shitty it may be .
Sorry to be so gloom and doom , but I 'm just telling you the truth .
I was out for a year when the tech bubble burst in 2001 so I have been there .
I was a year out of school ( i.e .
I was cheap ) with a year of experience that not many college grads would have , as well as co-op experience , and I could n't get hired to save my life .
My one final word of advice is not to believe ANYTHING a third party recruiter tells you .
Confirm everything they say with the company directly before agreeing to anything .
Those recruiters are sleazeballs of the worst kind and will lie to your face .
Be very careful dealing with them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're leaving school and entering the real world.
Being "able to program" in school and able to program in the real world are two completely different things.
You don't know shit about shit right now.
Colleget gives you a few basic tools and shows that you can get in-depth on a subject...in terms of what you can actually do for a company it's more or less meaningless.
You're also getting out of college and entering the job market during one of the worst economic downturns in recent history.
Get used to applying for jobs and hearing nothing back.
There are people with far more programming experience as well as just general work experience (the value of which you have probably not realized yet) who are getting the same replies...or lack of replies...from these companies.
There are probably people with experience applying for the same entry level jobs you are because they are desperate.
That's bad news for you.
Long story short: get used to getting nothing back.
The problem isn't that the evil HR people are a barrier to you showing these companies how useful you could be to them, its that you have no experience at all and you're not worth hiring.
Do anything you can to get noticed...apply online, send paper resumes, make sure you have a great cover letter, follow up with a phone call.
If your communication skills are poor, you better get someone to help you with that.
Your resume and cover letter should be ABSOLUTELY perfect...grammatically perfect, perfect formatting, and specifically targeted to each job you apply to.
Persistence is your only weapon right now.
If you have co-op/internship experience then that's great.
If not, you're up against thousands of people who do have it.
Remember, in times like this recruiters and HR people have a MASSIVE flood of resumes coming in.
More than you can imagine.
What makes yours so special?
What makes you stand out from all those others?
If the answer is nothing, better get used to flipping burgers until things get better.
If you're getting interviews with HR and then not getting callbacks, it might be time to brush up on your interviewing skills.
In a job market like this NOTHING can be taken for granted.
Remember that you are up against hundreds and hundreds of others for every single job.
How well does that suit fit?
The winning strategy in the short term may be to take any damn job you can get...especially if its in the computer industry...no matter how shitty it may be.
Sorry to be so gloom and doom, but I'm just telling you the truth.
I was out for a year when the tech bubble burst in 2001 so I have been there.
I was a year out of school (i.e.
I was cheap) with a year of experience that not many college grads would have, as well as co-op experience, and I couldn't get hired to save my life.
My one final word of advice is not to believe ANYTHING a third party recruiter tells you.
Confirm everything they say with the company directly before agreeing to anything.
Those recruiters are sleazeballs of the worst kind and will lie to your face.
Be very careful dealing with them.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650770</id>
	<title>Re:The sad fact is...</title>
	<author>beakerMeep</author>
	<datestamp>1269774000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'd go a step further and say if you can, <i>always bypass HR.</i>  They don't really add anything to the equation <i>for the applicant.</i>  The only thing you will get from HR is silly questions about how you handle 'difficult situations' and other amorphous concepts.  They'll often also just push your towards some 3rd party online application with a ton of questions that exactly match your resume except for the handy (sarcasm) checkbox to waive all your rights to a credit check and indemnify them for killing your dog and whatnot.
<br> <br>
For me, I do not want to put all of my personal details in a 3rd party online application form of some company I have no relationship with, have never heard of, know nothing of their security, and will likely forget has my info in a few years when they finally get pwned by some foreign script kid.  Luckily, as for the credit check BS, at least 16 states are moving to ban the practice and two already have (HI and WA).</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd go a step further and say if you can , always bypass HR .
They do n't really add anything to the equation for the applicant .
The only thing you will get from HR is silly questions about how you handle 'difficult situations ' and other amorphous concepts .
They 'll often also just push your towards some 3rd party online application with a ton of questions that exactly match your resume except for the handy ( sarcasm ) checkbox to waive all your rights to a credit check and indemnify them for killing your dog and whatnot .
For me , I do not want to put all of my personal details in a 3rd party online application form of some company I have no relationship with , have never heard of , know nothing of their security , and will likely forget has my info in a few years when they finally get pwned by some foreign script kid .
Luckily , as for the credit check BS , at least 16 states are moving to ban the practice and two already have ( HI and WA ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd go a step further and say if you can, always bypass HR.
They don't really add anything to the equation for the applicant.
The only thing you will get from HR is silly questions about how you handle 'difficult situations' and other amorphous concepts.
They'll often also just push your towards some 3rd party online application with a ton of questions that exactly match your resume except for the handy (sarcasm) checkbox to waive all your rights to a credit check and indemnify them for killing your dog and whatnot.
For me, I do not want to put all of my personal details in a 3rd party online application form of some company I have no relationship with, have never heard of, know nothing of their security, and will likely forget has my info in a few years when they finally get pwned by some foreign script kid.
Luckily, as for the credit check BS, at least 16 states are moving to ban the practice and two already have (HI and WA).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650242</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31655228</id>
	<title>Well, my company is looking</title>
	<author>SmallFurryCreature</author>
	<datestamp>1269865740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you happen to live in Holland a are PHP developer, then contact me.
</p><p>But I have some advice to anyone coming to a job interview with me. I am the senior developer and will be the one asking technical questions. And I expect you to know the basics of web development.
</p><p>That is, you know what a join is and can explain it. You know some techinques that help with loading sites quicker. You can tell me how you debug your code and what tools you use for it. You can tell me the REAL reason to use OO. No, code re-use is not the answer.
</p><p>What I have noticed is that a lot of web developers seem to lack what I think is basic knowledge, yet ask high salaries. Sorry, no thanks.
</p><p>For me a junior should show a grasp of the basic skills you need as a web developer (or whatever your field happens to be). You do not need to know everything, but if you can't handle even the basics of SQL, well then just what did you learn in school?
</p><p>Also, bring a sample of your work and make sure it is CLEAN. Errors you can learn to fix, but if you are a sloppy insecure coder, then I am not sure I am going to bother training you.
</p><p>What I want to know from an interviewee is that you have potential to grow, that you can be productive for the right price (if you take twice as long to do something as me, but earn 2/3 the salary, then you are a LOT more expensive), and that I won't constantly be correcting the same mistakes.
</p><p>So far it is proving very hard to find people who qualify. In Holland there is a real shortage of developers who can do more then just throw a site together. But that doesn't help a guy working in the US<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:/</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you happen to live in Holland a are PHP developer , then contact me .
But I have some advice to anyone coming to a job interview with me .
I am the senior developer and will be the one asking technical questions .
And I expect you to know the basics of web development .
That is , you know what a join is and can explain it .
You know some techinques that help with loading sites quicker .
You can tell me how you debug your code and what tools you use for it .
You can tell me the REAL reason to use OO .
No , code re-use is not the answer .
What I have noticed is that a lot of web developers seem to lack what I think is basic knowledge , yet ask high salaries .
Sorry , no thanks .
For me a junior should show a grasp of the basic skills you need as a web developer ( or whatever your field happens to be ) .
You do not need to know everything , but if you ca n't handle even the basics of SQL , well then just what did you learn in school ?
Also , bring a sample of your work and make sure it is CLEAN .
Errors you can learn to fix , but if you are a sloppy insecure coder , then I am not sure I am going to bother training you .
What I want to know from an interviewee is that you have potential to grow , that you can be productive for the right price ( if you take twice as long to do something as me , but earn 2/3 the salary , then you are a LOT more expensive ) , and that I wo n't constantly be correcting the same mistakes .
So far it is proving very hard to find people who qualify .
In Holland there is a real shortage of developers who can do more then just throw a site together .
But that does n't help a guy working in the US : /</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you happen to live in Holland a are PHP developer, then contact me.
But I have some advice to anyone coming to a job interview with me.
I am the senior developer and will be the one asking technical questions.
And I expect you to know the basics of web development.
That is, you know what a join is and can explain it.
You know some techinques that help with loading sites quicker.
You can tell me how you debug your code and what tools you use for it.
You can tell me the REAL reason to use OO.
No, code re-use is not the answer.
What I have noticed is that a lot of web developers seem to lack what I think is basic knowledge, yet ask high salaries.
Sorry, no thanks.
For me a junior should show a grasp of the basic skills you need as a web developer (or whatever your field happens to be).
You do not need to know everything, but if you can't handle even the basics of SQL, well then just what did you learn in school?
Also, bring a sample of your work and make sure it is CLEAN.
Errors you can learn to fix, but if you are a sloppy insecure coder, then I am not sure I am going to bother training you.
What I want to know from an interviewee is that you have potential to grow, that you can be productive for the right price (if you take twice as long to do something as me, but earn 2/3 the salary, then you are a LOT more expensive), and that I won't constantly be correcting the same mistakes.
So far it is proving very hard to find people who qualify.
In Holland there is a real shortage of developers who can do more then just throw a site together.
But that doesn't help a guy working in the US :/</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650206</id>
	<title>Missing something</title>
	<author>xSauronx</author>
	<datestamp>1269770280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It appears that you missed some level of social networking during school. I volunteered to work for the sysadmin at the community college I go to...I graduate in may and will go to uni in the fall, in the meantime, he put in a good word for me and it helped me get an internship at a sizeable area hospital that will look *great* on my resume (if they dont hire me when i finish uni)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It appears that you missed some level of social networking during school .
I volunteered to work for the sysadmin at the community college I go to...I graduate in may and will go to uni in the fall , in the meantime , he put in a good word for me and it helped me get an internship at a sizeable area hospital that will look * great * on my resume ( if they dont hire me when i finish uni )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It appears that you missed some level of social networking during school.
I volunteered to work for the sysadmin at the community college I go to...I graduate in may and will go to uni in the fall, in the meantime, he put in a good word for me and it helped me get an internship at a sizeable area hospital that will look *great* on my resume (if they dont hire me when i finish uni)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651170</id>
	<title>Honest Advice</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269776580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've been involved with hiring a lot of hi-tech companies, including Google &amp; Yahoo, as well as smaller shops.  The general advice I have you is: <b>be exceptional</b>.</p><p>The most common way to do that is to <b>attend an exceptional school</b>.  That is, a place like Stanford, MIT, Caltech, etc.  This isn't going to guarantee you a job, but it will greatly increase your chances of getting an interview because prior employees from good schools have done well on the job.  The background they teach also increases your chances of getting through the interview process.</p><p>By definition, not everyone goes to an exceptional school, so a lot of people will resent this advice.  Fine, but it's not going to change anything.  For a new grad, this is probably one of the single most important factors.  (If you've worked a while, it quickly falls in importance as you have real experience &amp; skills that can be evaluated.)</p><p>Okay, so you didn't go to a top school.  Now what?</p><p>Well, you're not screwed.  Not by any means.  A lot of the best engineers I know didn't go a top school.</p><p>But I'm going to be a lot less willing to take on as much risk.  So help me (as the theoretical hiring manager) by mitigating it another way.  That is, show me your awesome: <b>contribute significantly to an open source project</b>.  That shows me you can write real code.  It shows me you can get stuff done.  It shows you can work with others.  It shows initiative.</p><p>Last piece of advice, although you didn't ask about this:  For you first few jobs, forget about money.  Your goal is not to make the most money right now, but over the long haul of your career.  Find a gig where there are <i>experienced</i> and <i>better</i> developers than you, ones you'll be able to learn from.</p><p>If you walk into a place &amp; you're the hotshot with 1-3 years under your belt, <b>leave</b>.  Find a place you grow &amp; develop more, even if they back up the money truck.  In ten years, you'll be very glad you did (and you'll laugh at what you considered the "big money" 10 years back).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've been involved with hiring a lot of hi-tech companies , including Google &amp; Yahoo , as well as smaller shops .
The general advice I have you is : be exceptional.The most common way to do that is to attend an exceptional school .
That is , a place like Stanford , MIT , Caltech , etc .
This is n't going to guarantee you a job , but it will greatly increase your chances of getting an interview because prior employees from good schools have done well on the job .
The background they teach also increases your chances of getting through the interview process.By definition , not everyone goes to an exceptional school , so a lot of people will resent this advice .
Fine , but it 's not going to change anything .
For a new grad , this is probably one of the single most important factors .
( If you 've worked a while , it quickly falls in importance as you have real experience &amp; skills that can be evaluated .
) Okay , so you did n't go to a top school .
Now what ? Well , you 're not screwed .
Not by any means .
A lot of the best engineers I know did n't go a top school.But I 'm going to be a lot less willing to take on as much risk .
So help me ( as the theoretical hiring manager ) by mitigating it another way .
That is , show me your awesome : contribute significantly to an open source project .
That shows me you can write real code .
It shows me you can get stuff done .
It shows you can work with others .
It shows initiative.Last piece of advice , although you did n't ask about this : For you first few jobs , forget about money .
Your goal is not to make the most money right now , but over the long haul of your career .
Find a gig where there are experienced and better developers than you , ones you 'll be able to learn from.If you walk into a place &amp; you 're the hotshot with 1-3 years under your belt , leave .
Find a place you grow &amp; develop more , even if they back up the money truck .
In ten years , you 'll be very glad you did ( and you 'll laugh at what you considered the " big money " 10 years back ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've been involved with hiring a lot of hi-tech companies, including Google &amp; Yahoo, as well as smaller shops.
The general advice I have you is: be exceptional.The most common way to do that is to attend an exceptional school.
That is, a place like Stanford, MIT, Caltech, etc.
This isn't going to guarantee you a job, but it will greatly increase your chances of getting an interview because prior employees from good schools have done well on the job.
The background they teach also increases your chances of getting through the interview process.By definition, not everyone goes to an exceptional school, so a lot of people will resent this advice.
Fine, but it's not going to change anything.
For a new grad, this is probably one of the single most important factors.
(If you've worked a while, it quickly falls in importance as you have real experience &amp; skills that can be evaluated.
)Okay, so you didn't go to a top school.
Now what?Well, you're not screwed.
Not by any means.
A lot of the best engineers I know didn't go a top school.But I'm going to be a lot less willing to take on as much risk.
So help me (as the theoretical hiring manager) by mitigating it another way.
That is, show me your awesome: contribute significantly to an open source project.
That shows me you can write real code.
It shows me you can get stuff done.
It shows you can work with others.
It shows initiative.Last piece of advice, although you didn't ask about this:  For you first few jobs, forget about money.
Your goal is not to make the most money right now, but over the long haul of your career.
Find a gig where there are experienced and better developers than you, ones you'll be able to learn from.If you walk into a place &amp; you're the hotshot with 1-3 years under your belt, leave.
Find a place you grow &amp; develop more, even if they back up the money truck.
In ten years, you'll be very glad you did (and you'll laugh at what you considered the "big money" 10 years back).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650886</id>
	<title>Re:Missing something</title>
	<author>Lemming Mark</author>
	<datestamp>1269774600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>To be fair the guy might have been concentrating on his studies to the exclusion of social networking-type activities.  It's a valid point that social networking can be useful in getting onto the employment ladder, although I do think organisations sometimes rely a bit too heavily on personal connections to really get the best out of their recruitment.  Still, it's a useful tool to many people who are looking for work and enables you to find the right people to talk to in order to get proper consideration made of your CV (and in some cases to find out where openings are coming and where is good to look).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>To be fair the guy might have been concentrating on his studies to the exclusion of social networking-type activities .
It 's a valid point that social networking can be useful in getting onto the employment ladder , although I do think organisations sometimes rely a bit too heavily on personal connections to really get the best out of their recruitment .
Still , it 's a useful tool to many people who are looking for work and enables you to find the right people to talk to in order to get proper consideration made of your CV ( and in some cases to find out where openings are coming and where is good to look ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To be fair the guy might have been concentrating on his studies to the exclusion of social networking-type activities.
It's a valid point that social networking can be useful in getting onto the employment ladder, although I do think organisations sometimes rely a bit too heavily on personal connections to really get the best out of their recruitment.
Still, it's a useful tool to many people who are looking for work and enables you to find the right people to talk to in order to get proper consideration made of your CV (and in some cases to find out where openings are coming and where is good to look).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650206</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652374</id>
	<title>Re:Missing something</title>
	<author>Mr.Kipperific</author>
	<datestamp>1269787560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>I have to second this statement.  I'm also a student graduating in May.  I have had four job offers.  No matter what anyone says about a recession there are always opportunities in any economy.  Three of my four offers came from social networking, the first two came from simply chatting up some guys I met at a conference, while the third came from a friend of one of my professors.  The fourth offer is a government agency.

If your having trouble finding people to meet, I would say try getting to any sort of industry conference you can.  It can be pretty pricey but there are often student rates, and you almost always meet developers at conferences, not the HR staffers.  Just talk to people, ask them about what they do, and see where it goes from there.  It worked for me.  Three times.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have to second this statement .
I 'm also a student graduating in May .
I have had four job offers .
No matter what anyone says about a recession there are always opportunities in any economy .
Three of my four offers came from social networking , the first two came from simply chatting up some guys I met at a conference , while the third came from a friend of one of my professors .
The fourth offer is a government agency .
If your having trouble finding people to meet , I would say try getting to any sort of industry conference you can .
It can be pretty pricey but there are often student rates , and you almost always meet developers at conferences , not the HR staffers .
Just talk to people , ask them about what they do , and see where it goes from there .
It worked for me .
Three times .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have to second this statement.
I'm also a student graduating in May.
I have had four job offers.
No matter what anyone says about a recession there are always opportunities in any economy.
Three of my four offers came from social networking, the first two came from simply chatting up some guys I met at a conference, while the third came from a friend of one of my professors.
The fourth offer is a government agency.
If your having trouble finding people to meet, I would say try getting to any sort of industry conference you can.
It can be pretty pricey but there are often student rates, and you almost always meet developers at conferences, not the HR staffers.
Just talk to people, ask them about what they do, and see where it goes from there.
It worked for me.
Three times.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650206</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650816</id>
	<title>Does your resume convey coding ability?</title>
	<author>oranje</author>
	<datestamp>1269774300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>At my company, HR gets hundreds of resumes every day, and this giant pile is reduced to maybe a dozen resumes that they believe look good.  I take a look at these, and maybe see one or two candidates that seem like they've earned a phone call.  So, what makes these resumes stand out?<ul>
<li>Actual accomplishments: have you coded before?  What did you code?  What languages were used?  What role did you play in successfully completing this project?  Specifics are good, so long as it's not complete gibberish and jargon that HR will not understand.  Likewise, vague references to having written code don't mean much of anything - what did the program you write actually do?  What was involved in adding this feature, and what was the result?</li><li>Relevant skillset: Nobody cares that you know scheme unless they're using scheme.  And please, only list things that you're good at.  If you put C or C++ on your resume, but can't concisely describe what a pointer is, you do not know C or C++.  If you can use a language to write a program right now, it goes on your resume.  If it's something you used for one class your freshman year, you do not know the language.  If you can't survive a rapid-fire quiz relating to a skill you've mentioned, it should not have been on your resume.</li>
<li>Enthusiasm: Write a cover letter.  A good cover letter can make up for a thin resume.  It gives you a paragraph or two to explain how you're a driven, passionate, talented individual looking to contribute to an organization.  If you're <b>really</b> interested in the position, write a cover letter specific to that company.  Again, this goes with the relevant skillset point: describing how you're an accomplished Java developer in a cover letter means jack if the company doesn't use Java.</li>
<li>Formatting and Spelling:  No, seriously.  If your resume looks like crap, you look like crap.  A typo is a bug in a different kind of language.  Also, don't overload your resume with everything in the universe.  You're looking to make a clear, clean, concise summary that makes it apparent that you can kick ass and take names.  Also, getting a little creative doesn't hurt.  Times New Roman and Clippy-suggested formatting says that you care enough to do the bare minimum.  If your resume stands out visually, it stands out period.</li>
</ul><p>

Being a fresh graduate isn't as hard as people make it sound - if you've coded before, and you're good at it, you've got a way to sell yourself.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At my company , HR gets hundreds of resumes every day , and this giant pile is reduced to maybe a dozen resumes that they believe look good .
I take a look at these , and maybe see one or two candidates that seem like they 've earned a phone call .
So , what makes these resumes stand out ?
Actual accomplishments : have you coded before ?
What did you code ?
What languages were used ?
What role did you play in successfully completing this project ?
Specifics are good , so long as it 's not complete gibberish and jargon that HR will not understand .
Likewise , vague references to having written code do n't mean much of anything - what did the program you write actually do ?
What was involved in adding this feature , and what was the result ? Relevant skillset : Nobody cares that you know scheme unless they 're using scheme .
And please , only list things that you 're good at .
If you put C or C + + on your resume , but ca n't concisely describe what a pointer is , you do not know C or C + + .
If you can use a language to write a program right now , it goes on your resume .
If it 's something you used for one class your freshman year , you do not know the language .
If you ca n't survive a rapid-fire quiz relating to a skill you 've mentioned , it should not have been on your resume .
Enthusiasm : Write a cover letter .
A good cover letter can make up for a thin resume .
It gives you a paragraph or two to explain how you 're a driven , passionate , talented individual looking to contribute to an organization .
If you 're really interested in the position , write a cover letter specific to that company .
Again , this goes with the relevant skillset point : describing how you 're an accomplished Java developer in a cover letter means jack if the company does n't use Java .
Formatting and Spelling : No , seriously .
If your resume looks like crap , you look like crap .
A typo is a bug in a different kind of language .
Also , do n't overload your resume with everything in the universe .
You 're looking to make a clear , clean , concise summary that makes it apparent that you can kick ass and take names .
Also , getting a little creative does n't hurt .
Times New Roman and Clippy-suggested formatting says that you care enough to do the bare minimum .
If your resume stands out visually , it stands out period .
Being a fresh graduate is n't as hard as people make it sound - if you 've coded before , and you 're good at it , you 've got a way to sell yourself .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At my company, HR gets hundreds of resumes every day, and this giant pile is reduced to maybe a dozen resumes that they believe look good.
I take a look at these, and maybe see one or two candidates that seem like they've earned a phone call.
So, what makes these resumes stand out?
Actual accomplishments: have you coded before?
What did you code?
What languages were used?
What role did you play in successfully completing this project?
Specifics are good, so long as it's not complete gibberish and jargon that HR will not understand.
Likewise, vague references to having written code don't mean much of anything - what did the program you write actually do?
What was involved in adding this feature, and what was the result?Relevant skillset: Nobody cares that you know scheme unless they're using scheme.
And please, only list things that you're good at.
If you put C or C++ on your resume, but can't concisely describe what a pointer is, you do not know C or C++.
If you can use a language to write a program right now, it goes on your resume.
If it's something you used for one class your freshman year, you do not know the language.
If you can't survive a rapid-fire quiz relating to a skill you've mentioned, it should not have been on your resume.
Enthusiasm: Write a cover letter.
A good cover letter can make up for a thin resume.
It gives you a paragraph or two to explain how you're a driven, passionate, talented individual looking to contribute to an organization.
If you're really interested in the position, write a cover letter specific to that company.
Again, this goes with the relevant skillset point: describing how you're an accomplished Java developer in a cover letter means jack if the company doesn't use Java.
Formatting and Spelling:  No, seriously.
If your resume looks like crap, you look like crap.
A typo is a bug in a different kind of language.
Also, don't overload your resume with everything in the universe.
You're looking to make a clear, clean, concise summary that makes it apparent that you can kick ass and take names.
Also, getting a little creative doesn't hurt.
Times New Roman and Clippy-suggested formatting says that you care enough to do the bare minimum.
If your resume stands out visually, it stands out period.
Being a fresh graduate isn't as hard as people make it sound - if you've coded before, and you're good at it, you've got a way to sell yourself.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31656854</id>
	<title>You're a person, not a resource.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269876300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Protip: Try and work for a smaller shop without an HR department. Not only is the atmosphere going to be a lot friendlier, but they'll evaluate you as a person with skills, not a coding slave.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Protip : Try and work for a smaller shop without an HR department .
Not only is the atmosphere going to be a lot friendlier , but they 'll evaluate you as a person with skills , not a coding slave .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Protip: Try and work for a smaller shop without an HR department.
Not only is the atmosphere going to be a lot friendlier, but they'll evaluate you as a person with skills, not a coding slave.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650872</id>
	<title>HR are too dumb</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269774540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I landed in several jobs in the past few years and had gone through interviews with Engineers, managers and HR at various companies. From my experience, I had come to the conclusion that the HR usually consists of dumb liberal arts girls who think they know everything about the job advertised and management of their employees. They don't have any idea about the job, they just match keywords from your resume and prop you to the hiring manager. Landing an entry level job can be easy if you've done any internships or projects which are related to the job. Instead of working at Walmart or a restaurant in your student days, you can try to work at companies , do freelancing , develop or join some project which involves software development. I don't have much idea about IT but it shouldn't be hard for you to gain experience before you land your first job. You can also gain experience while you are working, learn new technologies every six months or so, keep yourself updated with programming practices and software engineering. Don't rely on books because they're outdated. What you've learnt from a book four years ago might not be applicable to today's standard.Keep yourself in touch with your peers who are into programming. Attend exhibitions, conferences in software engineering, read journals and know what is 'state-of-the-art' in programming .  Network with people who are in your field. It can be difficult to network with others if you are in a suburban rut but try many channels.Develop the above habits and you would be a good developer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I landed in several jobs in the past few years and had gone through interviews with Engineers , managers and HR at various companies .
From my experience , I had come to the conclusion that the HR usually consists of dumb liberal arts girls who think they know everything about the job advertised and management of their employees .
They do n't have any idea about the job , they just match keywords from your resume and prop you to the hiring manager .
Landing an entry level job can be easy if you 've done any internships or projects which are related to the job .
Instead of working at Walmart or a restaurant in your student days , you can try to work at companies , do freelancing , develop or join some project which involves software development .
I do n't have much idea about IT but it should n't be hard for you to gain experience before you land your first job .
You can also gain experience while you are working , learn new technologies every six months or so , keep yourself updated with programming practices and software engineering .
Do n't rely on books because they 're outdated .
What you 've learnt from a book four years ago might not be applicable to today 's standard.Keep yourself in touch with your peers who are into programming .
Attend exhibitions , conferences in software engineering , read journals and know what is 'state-of-the-art ' in programming .
Network with people who are in your field .
It can be difficult to network with others if you are in a suburban rut but try many channels.Develop the above habits and you would be a good developer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I landed in several jobs in the past few years and had gone through interviews with Engineers, managers and HR at various companies.
From my experience, I had come to the conclusion that the HR usually consists of dumb liberal arts girls who think they know everything about the job advertised and management of their employees.
They don't have any idea about the job, they just match keywords from your resume and prop you to the hiring manager.
Landing an entry level job can be easy if you've done any internships or projects which are related to the job.
Instead of working at Walmart or a restaurant in your student days, you can try to work at companies , do freelancing , develop or join some project which involves software development.
I don't have much idea about IT but it shouldn't be hard for you to gain experience before you land your first job.
You can also gain experience while you are working, learn new technologies every six months or so, keep yourself updated with programming practices and software engineering.
Don't rely on books because they're outdated.
What you've learnt from a book four years ago might not be applicable to today's standard.Keep yourself in touch with your peers who are into programming.
Attend exhibitions, conferences in software engineering, read journals and know what is 'state-of-the-art' in programming .
Network with people who are in your field.
It can be difficult to network with others if you are in a suburban rut but try many channels.Develop the above habits and you would be a good developer.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651688</id>
	<title>The purpose of the HR department</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269780720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The purpose of the HR department is to come up with bizarre and absurd reasons why mid-level supervisors can't get the human resources that they need to keep their division profitable.</p><p>All the other functions of a 'human resources' department could be done by computer or out-sourced to some distant third-world country.  So the alleged humans in the HR department need to constantly come up with reasons to justify their salaries.  So they specialize in coming up with weird and irrelevant reasons to prevent YOU from being hired.</p><p>My last job interview had a 22-year old ask me to explain a job termination that happened to me before she (always a she) was even born!  How do you answer something like that?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The purpose of the HR department is to come up with bizarre and absurd reasons why mid-level supervisors ca n't get the human resources that they need to keep their division profitable.All the other functions of a 'human resources ' department could be done by computer or out-sourced to some distant third-world country .
So the alleged humans in the HR department need to constantly come up with reasons to justify their salaries .
So they specialize in coming up with weird and irrelevant reasons to prevent YOU from being hired.My last job interview had a 22-year old ask me to explain a job termination that happened to me before she ( always a she ) was even born !
How do you answer something like that ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The purpose of the HR department is to come up with bizarre and absurd reasons why mid-level supervisors can't get the human resources that they need to keep their division profitable.All the other functions of a 'human resources' department could be done by computer or out-sourced to some distant third-world country.
So the alleged humans in the HR department need to constantly come up with reasons to justify their salaries.
So they specialize in coming up with weird and irrelevant reasons to prevent YOU from being hired.My last job interview had a 22-year old ask me to explain a job termination that happened to me before she (always a she) was even born!
How do you answer something like that?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650202</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650726</id>
	<title>Re:Apply</title>
	<author>Singularity42</author>
	<datestamp>1269773700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Proves my point people who repeat words (FAR) and make up statistics are wrong.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Proves my point people who repeat words ( FAR ) and make up statistics are wrong .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Proves my point people who repeat words (FAR) and make up statistics are wrong.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650362</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651604</id>
	<title>Re:Missing something</title>
	<author>Frosty Piss</author>
	<datestamp>1269780060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>My name is Mr. Piss. You can call me Frosty. Let me show you to your desk, and introduce you to the team.</htmltext>
<tokenext>My name is Mr. Piss. You can call me Frosty .
Let me show you to your desk , and introduce you to the team .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My name is Mr. Piss. You can call me Frosty.
Let me show you to your desk, and introduce you to the team.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650206</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650298</id>
	<title>Blowjob</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269770760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>great for promotions too.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>great for promotions too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>great for promotions too.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651956</id>
	<title>Re:Missing something</title>
	<author>shentino</author>
	<datestamp>1269783420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Seems that merit never is the most important qualification for actually getting your butt behind the desk.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Seems that merit never is the most important qualification for actually getting your butt behind the desk .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seems that merit never is the most important qualification for actually getting your butt behind the desk.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650206</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31655052</id>
	<title>I Tell Every Young Programmer This</title>
	<author>silverbax</author>
	<datestamp>1269863640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>1. Take any job you can get to get started. As soon as you land a job, ANY job, the clock starts ticking on your experience.<br>2. Work like mad and try to learn for the rest of your life.<br>3. Use recruiters to get jobs, and then once you have experience under your belt, start being more selective with recruiters.<br>4. Social network like crazy. Maintain relationships. Be great to work with and people will remember.<br>5. Be willing to do crap work.<br>6. Be willing to listen.<br>7. Understand that no matter how good you think your code is, three years from now it will look like junk.</p><p>I was a manager for a retail chain while going to school at the same time. My first 'computer' job came while still in school, using Photoshop to edit scanned images. It was crap work and the money wasn't much different than my manager job. Over a decade later I make six figures and get job offers weekly.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>1 .
Take any job you can get to get started .
As soon as you land a job , ANY job , the clock starts ticking on your experience.2 .
Work like mad and try to learn for the rest of your life.3 .
Use recruiters to get jobs , and then once you have experience under your belt , start being more selective with recruiters.4 .
Social network like crazy .
Maintain relationships .
Be great to work with and people will remember.5 .
Be willing to do crap work.6 .
Be willing to listen.7 .
Understand that no matter how good you think your code is , three years from now it will look like junk.I was a manager for a retail chain while going to school at the same time .
My first 'computer ' job came while still in school , using Photoshop to edit scanned images .
It was crap work and the money was n't much different than my manager job .
Over a decade later I make six figures and get job offers weekly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>1.
Take any job you can get to get started.
As soon as you land a job, ANY job, the clock starts ticking on your experience.2.
Work like mad and try to learn for the rest of your life.3.
Use recruiters to get jobs, and then once you have experience under your belt, start being more selective with recruiters.4.
Social network like crazy.
Maintain relationships.
Be great to work with and people will remember.5.
Be willing to do crap work.6.
Be willing to listen.7.
Understand that no matter how good you think your code is, three years from now it will look like junk.I was a manager for a retail chain while going to school at the same time.
My first 'computer' job came while still in school, using Photoshop to edit scanned images.
It was crap work and the money wasn't much different than my manager job.
Over a decade later I make six figures and get job offers weekly.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31653110</id>
	<title>Grad school + a few other pieces of advice</title>
	<author>FatalChaos</author>
	<datestamp>1269795600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>A lot of these suggestions are great (although some are a bit cruel), but why isn't grad school mentioned? You might have saved a decent chunk of money going to a small rural school, and it's understandable, but there's a reason why other people pay more to go to bigger name schools. Why not try and go to a masters program in a bigger name school that has job fairs if you can't find internships/jobs? Plus you can still build a portfolio working on open source software while getting your masters. Sure it'll cost you a good chunk of money, but if you actually are a talented computer scientist, it'll pay off in the long run.

Also, besides summer of code I'm pretty sure there are other programming/computer science competitions that you can participate in.

And finally, make sure you ask your professors and deans for advice. Seems obvious, but a lot of people I know don't do either or don't go to their professors. Some of them probably won't be of any use, but it only takes one good connection to get you that first job.</htmltext>
<tokenext>A lot of these suggestions are great ( although some are a bit cruel ) , but why is n't grad school mentioned ?
You might have saved a decent chunk of money going to a small rural school , and it 's understandable , but there 's a reason why other people pay more to go to bigger name schools .
Why not try and go to a masters program in a bigger name school that has job fairs if you ca n't find internships/jobs ?
Plus you can still build a portfolio working on open source software while getting your masters .
Sure it 'll cost you a good chunk of money , but if you actually are a talented computer scientist , it 'll pay off in the long run .
Also , besides summer of code I 'm pretty sure there are other programming/computer science competitions that you can participate in .
And finally , make sure you ask your professors and deans for advice .
Seems obvious , but a lot of people I know do n't do either or do n't go to their professors .
Some of them probably wo n't be of any use , but it only takes one good connection to get you that first job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A lot of these suggestions are great (although some are a bit cruel), but why isn't grad school mentioned?
You might have saved a decent chunk of money going to a small rural school, and it's understandable, but there's a reason why other people pay more to go to bigger name schools.
Why not try and go to a masters program in a bigger name school that has job fairs if you can't find internships/jobs?
Plus you can still build a portfolio working on open source software while getting your masters.
Sure it'll cost you a good chunk of money, but if you actually are a talented computer scientist, it'll pay off in the long run.
Also, besides summer of code I'm pretty sure there are other programming/computer science competitions that you can participate in.
And finally, make sure you ask your professors and deans for advice.
Seems obvious, but a lot of people I know don't do either or don't go to their professors.
Some of them probably won't be of any use, but it only takes one good connection to get you that first job.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31654074</id>
	<title>There is no easy road!</title>
	<author>Flamiex</author>
	<datestamp>1269892920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I am of the ones that also believe higher education is completly useless when it comes to computer sciences.<br>
Programming is a science that requires no physical tools besides a computer. Allowing anyone to be able to learn it, regardless of they are in school or not.<br>
I am the owner of a software development company and we have had to hire quite some developers. I must say the best developers we've hired were the ones with no [relevant] degree(s).<br>
But why is that? I believe its because programmers who are self taught have already proved to me that they are passionate about what they do.<br>
No one would spend hours of their free time learning something they don't like.<br>
I have started writing software way before I ever my first programming class, I have done half of a bachelor (4 year) degree and dropped out because I got bored out of my mind and realised almost everyone in that degree would never become a real developer.<br>
Since then I have only had more than amazing jobs, and now am the owner of my own business.<br>
It has been said by previous commenters and I will say it again: <br>
THERE IS NO EASY ROAD!!<br>
You cant just expect to sit in class for hours and that will be all you need to get a job and live the rest of your life. If you want something you must go and get it, do everything you can to get it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I am of the ones that also believe higher education is completly useless when it comes to computer sciences .
Programming is a science that requires no physical tools besides a computer .
Allowing anyone to be able to learn it , regardless of they are in school or not .
I am the owner of a software development company and we have had to hire quite some developers .
I must say the best developers we 've hired were the ones with no [ relevant ] degree ( s ) .
But why is that ?
I believe its because programmers who are self taught have already proved to me that they are passionate about what they do .
No one would spend hours of their free time learning something they do n't like .
I have started writing software way before I ever my first programming class , I have done half of a bachelor ( 4 year ) degree and dropped out because I got bored out of my mind and realised almost everyone in that degree would never become a real developer .
Since then I have only had more than amazing jobs , and now am the owner of my own business .
It has been said by previous commenters and I will say it again : THERE IS NO EASY ROAD ! !
You cant just expect to sit in class for hours and that will be all you need to get a job and live the rest of your life .
If you want something you must go and get it , do everything you can to get it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am of the ones that also believe higher education is completly useless when it comes to computer sciences.
Programming is a science that requires no physical tools besides a computer.
Allowing anyone to be able to learn it, regardless of they are in school or not.
I am the owner of a software development company and we have had to hire quite some developers.
I must say the best developers we've hired were the ones with no [relevant] degree(s).
But why is that?
I believe its because programmers who are self taught have already proved to me that they are passionate about what they do.
No one would spend hours of their free time learning something they don't like.
I have started writing software way before I ever my first programming class, I have done half of a bachelor (4 year) degree and dropped out because I got bored out of my mind and realised almost everyone in that degree would never become a real developer.
Since then I have only had more than amazing jobs, and now am the owner of my own business.
It has been said by previous commenters and I will say it again: 
THERE IS NO EASY ROAD!!
You cant just expect to sit in class for hours and that will be all you need to get a job and live the rest of your life.
If you want something you must go and get it, do everything you can to get it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651036</id>
	<title>Sending Resumes</title>
	<author>Thelasko</author>
	<datestamp>1269775500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p> I understand that sending resumes online is not the best method to landing an interview...</p></div></blockquote><p>
These days it's the only way.  If you send in a paper resume, it will get thrown in the trash.  HR departments were scaled back during the major layoffs, and they receive a lot of resumes.  This means your resume will only be chosen <b>by computer!</b>  Time to show off your skills and figure out how to game the system.<br> <br>

I just landed a job after 9 months of unemployment this way.  Load your resume up will lots of key words.  When the computer ranks two resumes equally, it posts the most recent one first.  Therefore, you need to repost your resume often.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I understand that sending resumes online is not the best method to landing an interview.. . These days it 's the only way .
If you send in a paper resume , it will get thrown in the trash .
HR departments were scaled back during the major layoffs , and they receive a lot of resumes .
This means your resume will only be chosen by computer !
Time to show off your skills and figure out how to game the system .
I just landed a job after 9 months of unemployment this way .
Load your resume up will lots of key words .
When the computer ranks two resumes equally , it posts the most recent one first .
Therefore , you need to repost your resume often .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> I understand that sending resumes online is not the best method to landing an interview...
These days it's the only way.
If you send in a paper resume, it will get thrown in the trash.
HR departments were scaled back during the major layoffs, and they receive a lot of resumes.
This means your resume will only be chosen by computer!
Time to show off your skills and figure out how to game the system.
I just landed a job after 9 months of unemployment this way.
Load your resume up will lots of key words.
When the computer ranks two resumes equally, it posts the most recent one first.
Therefore, you need to repost your resume often.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651022</id>
	<title>been there done that</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269775380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I can relate. I left one tech field to go back to school so that I could enter another. Expecting I would be better off for the experience. then the economy went down the shitter. I graduated last may and have just now found a job. Some suggestions from experience are:<br>1) If your not already employed in some matter get so. It doesnt matter what your doing or if dont really need it cause you live in your parents basement. Long periods of unemployment are a stigma.<br>2) I religiously applied to jobs online. Careerbuilder, Monster, Dice, Indeed and probably others that im forgetting. Last fall I counted over 1000 applications I had submitted. That was almost a complete waste of my time. The first two wont do anything but bury your email account in spam. I had somewhat better results from usajobs.gov.  However my school career center proved to be the most productive.<br>3) Be realistic with your  expectations. entry level pay is defintely down from what it has been and competition is high for entry level openings. you also want to be flexible with where your willing to relocate.<br>5) Dont give up hope. Keep trying. It took me a year and I managed landing pretty much exactly what I was originally looking for.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I can relate .
I left one tech field to go back to school so that I could enter another .
Expecting I would be better off for the experience .
then the economy went down the shitter .
I graduated last may and have just now found a job .
Some suggestions from experience are : 1 ) If your not already employed in some matter get so .
It doesnt matter what your doing or if dont really need it cause you live in your parents basement .
Long periods of unemployment are a stigma.2 ) I religiously applied to jobs online .
Careerbuilder , Monster , Dice , Indeed and probably others that im forgetting .
Last fall I counted over 1000 applications I had submitted .
That was almost a complete waste of my time .
The first two wont do anything but bury your email account in spam .
I had somewhat better results from usajobs.gov .
However my school career center proved to be the most productive.3 ) Be realistic with your expectations .
entry level pay is defintely down from what it has been and competition is high for entry level openings .
you also want to be flexible with where your willing to relocate.5 ) Dont give up hope .
Keep trying .
It took me a year and I managed landing pretty much exactly what I was originally looking for .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can relate.
I left one tech field to go back to school so that I could enter another.
Expecting I would be better off for the experience.
then the economy went down the shitter.
I graduated last may and have just now found a job.
Some suggestions from experience are:1) If your not already employed in some matter get so.
It doesnt matter what your doing or if dont really need it cause you live in your parents basement.
Long periods of unemployment are a stigma.2) I religiously applied to jobs online.
Careerbuilder, Monster, Dice, Indeed and probably others that im forgetting.
Last fall I counted over 1000 applications I had submitted.
That was almost a complete waste of my time.
The first two wont do anything but bury your email account in spam.
I had somewhat better results from usajobs.gov.
However my school career center proved to be the most productive.3) Be realistic with your  expectations.
entry level pay is defintely down from what it has been and competition is high for entry level openings.
you also want to be flexible with where your willing to relocate.5) Dont give up hope.
Keep trying.
It took me a year and I managed landing pretty much exactly what I was originally looking for.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651306</id>
	<title>Help from your local college</title>
	<author>mmmmbeer</author>
	<datestamp>1269777720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At my university, the College of Engineering had a co-op and internship office.  Anyone from the university could sign up with the office and have their resumes submitted to companies.  This meant that you would be applying for positions with companies who were specifically looking for entry-level candidates.  In addition to this, companies could post job openings, and anyone, even people who had never attended the university, could go in and browse those postings.  Again, these posting are specifically for entry-level positions, so you're not competing against much more qualified people.  I got my first two jobs through that program: the first an internship and the second a summer job.  That summer job led to a full-time job that has led directly to all of the jobs I have had since.  If you have any local colleges or universities, you might want to check and see if they have something similar.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At my university , the College of Engineering had a co-op and internship office .
Anyone from the university could sign up with the office and have their resumes submitted to companies .
This meant that you would be applying for positions with companies who were specifically looking for entry-level candidates .
In addition to this , companies could post job openings , and anyone , even people who had never attended the university , could go in and browse those postings .
Again , these posting are specifically for entry-level positions , so you 're not competing against much more qualified people .
I got my first two jobs through that program : the first an internship and the second a summer job .
That summer job led to a full-time job that has led directly to all of the jobs I have had since .
If you have any local colleges or universities , you might want to check and see if they have something similar .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At my university, the College of Engineering had a co-op and internship office.
Anyone from the university could sign up with the office and have their resumes submitted to companies.
This meant that you would be applying for positions with companies who were specifically looking for entry-level candidates.
In addition to this, companies could post job openings, and anyone, even people who had never attended the university, could go in and browse those postings.
Again, these posting are specifically for entry-level positions, so you're not competing against much more qualified people.
I got my first two jobs through that program: the first an internship and the second a summer job.
That summer job led to a full-time job that has led directly to all of the jobs I have had since.
If you have any local colleges or universities, you might want to check and see if they have something similar.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650316</id>
	<title>It is not a great time</title>
	<author>MyLongNickName</author>
	<datestamp>1269770880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Right now is a really hard time to try to get your foot in the door. As a manager, I posted for an entry level position and ended up with a ton of candidates with a strong background. I don't believe in the whole "overqualified" paradigm, so I ended up getting the best candidate -- over twelve years of experience pertinent to my business, glowing reviews from previous employers and excellent interpersonal skills.</p><p>I got a ton of resumes from college students. Several sounded promising, and I would have loved to give them a chance. But when I have someone with a proven track record who I KNOW will not require only minimal supervision and will bring more to the table... why should I waste my time and money?</p><p>Is it fair? Maybe not. When I was in this position almost 15 years ago it sucked. But with 10\%+ unemployment it is very hard for the entry level candidate to get his foot in the door.</p><p>My solution.... if you are still in school... get a fricking internship. It may not put you at the same level as those I did end up interviewing... but it will help/</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Right now is a really hard time to try to get your foot in the door .
As a manager , I posted for an entry level position and ended up with a ton of candidates with a strong background .
I do n't believe in the whole " overqualified " paradigm , so I ended up getting the best candidate -- over twelve years of experience pertinent to my business , glowing reviews from previous employers and excellent interpersonal skills.I got a ton of resumes from college students .
Several sounded promising , and I would have loved to give them a chance .
But when I have someone with a proven track record who I KNOW will not require only minimal supervision and will bring more to the table... why should I waste my time and money ? Is it fair ?
Maybe not .
When I was in this position almost 15 years ago it sucked .
But with 10 \ % + unemployment it is very hard for the entry level candidate to get his foot in the door.My solution.... if you are still in school... get a fricking internship .
It may not put you at the same level as those I did end up interviewing... but it will help/</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Right now is a really hard time to try to get your foot in the door.
As a manager, I posted for an entry level position and ended up with a ton of candidates with a strong background.
I don't believe in the whole "overqualified" paradigm, so I ended up getting the best candidate -- over twelve years of experience pertinent to my business, glowing reviews from previous employers and excellent interpersonal skills.I got a ton of resumes from college students.
Several sounded promising, and I would have loved to give them a chance.
But when I have someone with a proven track record who I KNOW will not require only minimal supervision and will bring more to the table... why should I waste my time and money?Is it fair?
Maybe not.
When I was in this position almost 15 years ago it sucked.
But with 10\%+ unemployment it is very hard for the entry level candidate to get his foot in the door.My solution.... if you are still in school... get a fricking internship.
It may not put you at the same level as those I did end up interviewing... but it will help/</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31657678</id>
	<title>Re:To that I'll add</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269879600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Parent posts are spot on. In my own personal experience, getting a CS degree did net me an "entry level" position, but not purely because of the degree. When I was hired, I was grilled on my way of thinking, my approaches to problems, and what my knowledge base really was. It makes no difference how many languages you can write "hello world" in, if you aren't able to answer the questions your potential employer is asking of you. Had I not had an intern-like position as a web developer (flash and html are maddening as a CS student), I wouldn't have gained any industry experience, and likely would never have been considered.</p><p>If this thread has done nothing to convince you, put yourself in the employers shoes. You need someone that can reason about the software your employer is producing, someone able to solve the problems as they come up, in the language they use, in order to please their customers. While a degree will put you a step ahead of those without one (to an extent), it won't distinguish you from all the other new degrees. However, if you have developed your own indie game (or at least attempted to and can prove it), you may stand out from the crowd for a game company job.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Parent posts are spot on .
In my own personal experience , getting a CS degree did net me an " entry level " position , but not purely because of the degree .
When I was hired , I was grilled on my way of thinking , my approaches to problems , and what my knowledge base really was .
It makes no difference how many languages you can write " hello world " in , if you are n't able to answer the questions your potential employer is asking of you .
Had I not had an intern-like position as a web developer ( flash and html are maddening as a CS student ) , I would n't have gained any industry experience , and likely would never have been considered.If this thread has done nothing to convince you , put yourself in the employers shoes .
You need someone that can reason about the software your employer is producing , someone able to solve the problems as they come up , in the language they use , in order to please their customers .
While a degree will put you a step ahead of those without one ( to an extent ) , it wo n't distinguish you from all the other new degrees .
However , if you have developed your own indie game ( or at least attempted to and can prove it ) , you may stand out from the crowd for a game company job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Parent posts are spot on.
In my own personal experience, getting a CS degree did net me an "entry level" position, but not purely because of the degree.
When I was hired, I was grilled on my way of thinking, my approaches to problems, and what my knowledge base really was.
It makes no difference how many languages you can write "hello world" in, if you aren't able to answer the questions your potential employer is asking of you.
Had I not had an intern-like position as a web developer (flash and html are maddening as a CS student), I wouldn't have gained any industry experience, and likely would never have been considered.If this thread has done nothing to convince you, put yourself in the employers shoes.
You need someone that can reason about the software your employer is producing, someone able to solve the problems as they come up, in the language they use, in order to please their customers.
While a degree will put you a step ahead of those without one (to an extent), it won't distinguish you from all the other new degrees.
However, if you have developed your own indie game (or at least attempted to and can prove it), you may stand out from the crowd for a game company job.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652102</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31653226</id>
	<title>Re:show off your programming skills</title>
	<author>mahadiga</author>
	<datestamp>1269796440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is a good advice. However OP should remember that <i>Employers prefer to hire highly skilled Wage Slaves.</i></p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is a good advice .
However OP should remember that Employers prefer to hire highly skilled Wage Slaves .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is a good advice.
However OP should remember that Employers prefer to hire highly skilled Wage Slaves.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650214</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652446</id>
	<title>Re:Here's The Problem.</title>
	<author>pz</author>
	<datestamp>1269788400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>When the HVAC went out in the studios, he got up from his job as a call screener for one of our talk shows and said, "it's just too hot. I'll be back tomorrow" -- which left us scrambling for someone to cover his slot.</p><p>He still calls from time to time and is amazed that we won't hire him. No, I'm not kidding.</p></div><p>Serious question: did you let him back to finish his internship, and if so, why?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>When the HVAC went out in the studios , he got up from his job as a call screener for one of our talk shows and said , " it 's just too hot .
I 'll be back tomorrow " -- which left us scrambling for someone to cover his slot.He still calls from time to time and is amazed that we wo n't hire him .
No , I 'm not kidding.Serious question : did you let him back to finish his internship , and if so , why ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When the HVAC went out in the studios, he got up from his job as a call screener for one of our talk shows and said, "it's just too hot.
I'll be back tomorrow" -- which left us scrambling for someone to cover his slot.He still calls from time to time and is amazed that we won't hire him.
No, I'm not kidding.Serious question: did you let him back to finish his internship, and if so, why?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650320</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651122</id>
	<title>Something an interviewer can't resist</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269776220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Offer the interviewer an awesome blow job. Works every time<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Offer the interviewer an awesome blow job .
Works every time ; - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Offer the interviewer an awesome blow job.
Works every time ;-)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31653158</id>
	<title>Open Req's</title>
	<author>Software Geek</author>
	<datestamp>1269795960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The original poster seems to be missing a fundamental aspect of the way organizations hire people.<br>Organizations do not actively examine all of the resumes that cross their desk, then cherry pick the particularly impressive ones.<br>At most times, an organization is not hiring, and they do not look at resumes at all.  Every once in a while, an organization will decide that it needs more people.  Getting approval to hire someone is difficult.  (At the organization I work for (which has about 2000 employees), five layers of approval, including the CEO, are needed.)  Once the decision to hire someone is made, the team that is hiring has what is known as an "Open Req" (Short for requisition, perhaps?)<br>Most organizations don't even begin looking at resumes or interviewing until there is an open req.  Once there is an open req, the process speeds up signficantly. Most organizations tinker with their budgets every quarter, and what is the easiest item to remove from a budget?  An open req.  Because of this, most hiring managers are in a great hurry to make an offer before the req gets cancelled.  They interview every reasonable candidate they can get their hands on before the end of the quarter, and hire the best of the lot.</p><p>The point is, if you aren't getting interviews, it is because either you are applying to companies that aren't hiring, or your resume is simply terrible.  (If you are getting interviews but not offers, then you have different issues...)</p><p>I recommend the following:<br>1) Look at job postings on dice.com and craigslist.  Companies post there because they are actively hiring.  Submit your resume to anything that requires less than 3 years of experience.<br>2) Post your resume on dice.com.  No employers look there, but recruiters do.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The original poster seems to be missing a fundamental aspect of the way organizations hire people.Organizations do not actively examine all of the resumes that cross their desk , then cherry pick the particularly impressive ones.At most times , an organization is not hiring , and they do not look at resumes at all .
Every once in a while , an organization will decide that it needs more people .
Getting approval to hire someone is difficult .
( At the organization I work for ( which has about 2000 employees ) , five layers of approval , including the CEO , are needed .
) Once the decision to hire someone is made , the team that is hiring has what is known as an " Open Req " ( Short for requisition , perhaps ?
) Most organizations do n't even begin looking at resumes or interviewing until there is an open req .
Once there is an open req , the process speeds up signficantly .
Most organizations tinker with their budgets every quarter , and what is the easiest item to remove from a budget ?
An open req .
Because of this , most hiring managers are in a great hurry to make an offer before the req gets cancelled .
They interview every reasonable candidate they can get their hands on before the end of the quarter , and hire the best of the lot.The point is , if you are n't getting interviews , it is because either you are applying to companies that are n't hiring , or your resume is simply terrible .
( If you are getting interviews but not offers , then you have different issues... ) I recommend the following : 1 ) Look at job postings on dice.com and craigslist .
Companies post there because they are actively hiring .
Submit your resume to anything that requires less than 3 years of experience.2 ) Post your resume on dice.com .
No employers look there , but recruiters do .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The original poster seems to be missing a fundamental aspect of the way organizations hire people.Organizations do not actively examine all of the resumes that cross their desk, then cherry pick the particularly impressive ones.At most times, an organization is not hiring, and they do not look at resumes at all.
Every once in a while, an organization will decide that it needs more people.
Getting approval to hire someone is difficult.
(At the organization I work for (which has about 2000 employees), five layers of approval, including the CEO, are needed.
)  Once the decision to hire someone is made, the team that is hiring has what is known as an "Open Req" (Short for requisition, perhaps?
)Most organizations don't even begin looking at resumes or interviewing until there is an open req.
Once there is an open req, the process speeds up signficantly.
Most organizations tinker with their budgets every quarter, and what is the easiest item to remove from a budget?
An open req.
Because of this, most hiring managers are in a great hurry to make an offer before the req gets cancelled.
They interview every reasonable candidate they can get their hands on before the end of the quarter, and hire the best of the lot.The point is, if you aren't getting interviews, it is because either you are applying to companies that aren't hiring, or your resume is simply terrible.
(If you are getting interviews but not offers, then you have different issues...)I recommend the following:1) Look at job postings on dice.com and craigslist.
Companies post there because they are actively hiring.
Submit your resume to anything that requires less than 3 years of experience.2) Post your resume on dice.com.
No employers look there, but recruiters do.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651612</id>
	<title>Re:Apply</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269780180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Between switching majors to find something I like and attending classes part time while working, I am just about at year 8 of college getting ready to acquire my CS degree.  People have been telling me what you have just said for many years now and I have always brushed off and pressed on "I'll be able to find a job", "I won't be miserable in manual labor all my life", "I haven't been wasting my time and money on this degree".  But somehow your arguments have hit me hard.</p><p>Thank you sir for crushing my spirit.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Between switching majors to find something I like and attending classes part time while working , I am just about at year 8 of college getting ready to acquire my CS degree .
People have been telling me what you have just said for many years now and I have always brushed off and pressed on " I 'll be able to find a job " , " I wo n't be miserable in manual labor all my life " , " I have n't been wasting my time and money on this degree " .
But somehow your arguments have hit me hard.Thank you sir for crushing my spirit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Between switching majors to find something I like and attending classes part time while working, I am just about at year 8 of college getting ready to acquire my CS degree.
People have been telling me what you have just said for many years now and I have always brushed off and pressed on "I'll be able to find a job", "I won't be miserable in manual labor all my life", "I haven't been wasting my time and money on this degree".
But somehow your arguments have hit me hard.Thank you sir for crushing my spirit.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650362</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650326</id>
	<title>An internship</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269770940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When I was in school way back when, the school would work an internship program with local companies and the students would get course credit.  Do they still offer those anymore for CS majors?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When I was in school way back when , the school would work an internship program with local companies and the students would get course credit .
Do they still offer those anymore for CS majors ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I was in school way back when, the school would work an internship program with local companies and the students would get course credit.
Do they still offer those anymore for CS majors?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31657596</id>
	<title>Re:The purpose of the HR department</title>
	<author>pthor1231</author>
	<datestamp>1269879360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>What relevance does the interviewer's age have to do with your job termination?  Would it have been a perfectly acceptable question if a 65 year old lady had asked you?</htmltext>
<tokenext>What relevance does the interviewer 's age have to do with your job termination ?
Would it have been a perfectly acceptable question if a 65 year old lady had asked you ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What relevance does the interviewer's age have to do with your job termination?
Would it have been a perfectly acceptable question if a 65 year old lady had asked you?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651688</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650506</id>
	<title>Human Networking</title>
	<author>blunte</author>
	<datestamp>1269772200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You think finding a job is hard now, when you have no experience.  It can be as hard or harder once you DO have experience.  Before I drone on about why it's hard to get a job with experience, here's my solution to both: Human Networking.</p><p>It's really surprisingly simple.  The more people you talk to and get to know...</p><p>-  the more people who may tell you when a position becomes (or is about to become) available<br>-  the more people you can "seek advice" from about getting a job (thereby making them aware of your availability, skills, and interests)<br>-  the more you can name-drop, or at least make reference to first hand<br>-  the more you can hear and learn about what companies are like to work for, and whether you would really want to work there or not</p><p>I'm sure there are other benefits, but the first two listed are probably the most valuable.</p><p>So how do you meet these people?  In the old days, pre-internet, people tended to congregate in different groups or clubs (Toastmasters being one of the popular ones).  Now we have Meetup, which might have some active groups you can visit and get in with.  There are also community groups, such as those focused on bringing and operating business within a community, volunteer groups, etc.</p><p>You can't really discount groups as not being applicable or beneficial until you get in and get to know people.  Everyone knows someone, and people, in person, tend to be happy and willing to direct and guide others.  So the guy you're volunteering with at Habitat for Humanity may have some great contacts in your field.  At the very least he may have a contact that he knows has lots of tech contacts; and you're +1 already because you know this guy, and because you're doing meaningful volunteer work.</p><p>Lastly, seeing the internet as the primary tool for getting a job is a huge mistake.  The internet, where jobs are concerned (and some other things), is a cesspool.  Multiple posts for the same job, multiple "staffing firms" trying to fill the same spot (and using recruiters who previously were just somewhat non-technical, but now who are imported and often merely trained monkeys); positions which have been pulled or filled, but no updates/removals of the internet posts have been made; etc. etc.</p><p>Meanwhile, find something of interest, technical or otherwise (you never know where your good connection is going to come from), and get involved.  If ballroom dancing is your fancy, go do that.  Those people know people.</p><p>Now about the experienced seeking jobs... just be aware that so many jobs today are for positions that already existed.  Bob did X, Y, and Z, and company is seeking someone with those exact skills.  It's pretty unlikely that there are candidates with the exact skills required; thus it's very beneficial to know someone within the company, that way you can get the interview without being filtered out by a keyword-matching monkey.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You think finding a job is hard now , when you have no experience .
It can be as hard or harder once you DO have experience .
Before I drone on about why it 's hard to get a job with experience , here 's my solution to both : Human Networking.It 's really surprisingly simple .
The more people you talk to and get to know...- the more people who may tell you when a position becomes ( or is about to become ) available- the more people you can " seek advice " from about getting a job ( thereby making them aware of your availability , skills , and interests ) - the more you can name-drop , or at least make reference to first hand- the more you can hear and learn about what companies are like to work for , and whether you would really want to work there or notI 'm sure there are other benefits , but the first two listed are probably the most valuable.So how do you meet these people ?
In the old days , pre-internet , people tended to congregate in different groups or clubs ( Toastmasters being one of the popular ones ) .
Now we have Meetup , which might have some active groups you can visit and get in with .
There are also community groups , such as those focused on bringing and operating business within a community , volunteer groups , etc.You ca n't really discount groups as not being applicable or beneficial until you get in and get to know people .
Everyone knows someone , and people , in person , tend to be happy and willing to direct and guide others .
So the guy you 're volunteering with at Habitat for Humanity may have some great contacts in your field .
At the very least he may have a contact that he knows has lots of tech contacts ; and you 're + 1 already because you know this guy , and because you 're doing meaningful volunteer work.Lastly , seeing the internet as the primary tool for getting a job is a huge mistake .
The internet , where jobs are concerned ( and some other things ) , is a cesspool .
Multiple posts for the same job , multiple " staffing firms " trying to fill the same spot ( and using recruiters who previously were just somewhat non-technical , but now who are imported and often merely trained monkeys ) ; positions which have been pulled or filled , but no updates/removals of the internet posts have been made ; etc .
etc.Meanwhile , find something of interest , technical or otherwise ( you never know where your good connection is going to come from ) , and get involved .
If ballroom dancing is your fancy , go do that .
Those people know people.Now about the experienced seeking jobs... just be aware that so many jobs today are for positions that already existed .
Bob did X , Y , and Z , and company is seeking someone with those exact skills .
It 's pretty unlikely that there are candidates with the exact skills required ; thus it 's very beneficial to know someone within the company , that way you can get the interview without being filtered out by a keyword-matching monkey .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You think finding a job is hard now, when you have no experience.
It can be as hard or harder once you DO have experience.
Before I drone on about why it's hard to get a job with experience, here's my solution to both: Human Networking.It's really surprisingly simple.
The more people you talk to and get to know...-  the more people who may tell you when a position becomes (or is about to become) available-  the more people you can "seek advice" from about getting a job (thereby making them aware of your availability, skills, and interests)-  the more you can name-drop, or at least make reference to first hand-  the more you can hear and learn about what companies are like to work for, and whether you would really want to work there or notI'm sure there are other benefits, but the first two listed are probably the most valuable.So how do you meet these people?
In the old days, pre-internet, people tended to congregate in different groups or clubs (Toastmasters being one of the popular ones).
Now we have Meetup, which might have some active groups you can visit and get in with.
There are also community groups, such as those focused on bringing and operating business within a community, volunteer groups, etc.You can't really discount groups as not being applicable or beneficial until you get in and get to know people.
Everyone knows someone, and people, in person, tend to be happy and willing to direct and guide others.
So the guy you're volunteering with at Habitat for Humanity may have some great contacts in your field.
At the very least he may have a contact that he knows has lots of tech contacts; and you're +1 already because you know this guy, and because you're doing meaningful volunteer work.Lastly, seeing the internet as the primary tool for getting a job is a huge mistake.
The internet, where jobs are concerned (and some other things), is a cesspool.
Multiple posts for the same job, multiple "staffing firms" trying to fill the same spot (and using recruiters who previously were just somewhat non-technical, but now who are imported and often merely trained monkeys); positions which have been pulled or filled, but no updates/removals of the internet posts have been made; etc.
etc.Meanwhile, find something of interest, technical or otherwise (you never know where your good connection is going to come from), and get involved.
If ballroom dancing is your fancy, go do that.
Those people know people.Now about the experienced seeking jobs... just be aware that so many jobs today are for positions that already existed.
Bob did X, Y, and Z, and company is seeking someone with those exact skills.
It's pretty unlikely that there are candidates with the exact skills required; thus it's very beneficial to know someone within the company, that way you can get the interview without being filtered out by a keyword-matching monkey.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31651132</id>
	<title>Re:Missing something</title>
	<author>asdf7890</author>
	<datestamp>1269776280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Way to be helpful, might as well utter that old adage, "You should have thought about it before."</p></div><p>That doesn't alter the fact that however the point was presented, or however unintentionally up-his-own-arse the person making the point may have seemed to take the more negative stance, it is a very valid point. Networking can help a lot in may cases.</p><p>Maybe it is the Sunday evening pub meal and drinks talking (as I'm not usually one to give the benefit of the doubt!) but I didn't read the post you replied to as "this is what I did but you are too late nyar nyar n nyar nyar", but more as "this is what I did and this is how it helped my plans". The OP could still try the technique - there may be opportunities locally for some sort of technical volunteer work that could be used as the same sort of "CV fodder" spring-board and/or to gain a good reference for future applications for paid work. While the relatively easy-to-access college volunteer work option has gone for the OP there are likely to be opportunities to look for at this later stage. There may well be departments/organisations related to the University or its student bodies or local charities that could use some technical help but can ill afford a trained/accredited resource. If you can get in contact with someone like that at an appropriate time it can be a win/win situation: they get the temporary technical help they need but can't actually afford and the OP gets some CV fodder and/or a useful reference, or at least some experience that could be talked about at interview. Having some real world "dealing with users" / "dealing with customers" / "dealing with management" / "real-world problem solving" experience to talk about critically in an interview can make a massive difference to your chances once you get as far as the interview - it can indicate to the interviewer that not only do you know some facts/techniques but you are also capable of applying them outside academic situations and are capable of dealing with the real people in the real world at the same time. (by "talk about critically" I don't mean just "having a go" about the things that were/went wrong, I mean "what went well and why, what could have been done better, how would you approach the same task again if you had the power of hindsight, how were other people/resources helpful or not" and so on - constructive critique of your progress and experience)</p><p>Ever if you don't even manage any of that the exposure, through volunteering, to work outside an academic environment might teach you some useful stuff - even if only "I don't actually like X" or "I more enjoy Y and I'm more proficient in it than Z" or "hmmm, I didn't realise I would need A so much, maybe evidence of reading around / practising / otherwise persuing that area will help me jump from the CV stage to the interview stage more easily".</p><p>If you have time and can find volunteer work it will rarely be a disadvantage to you - especially if you are otherwise completely unemployed because it isn't like there would be a lot else practical to fill your time with. This in itself helps a CV/application look more attractive - which would you rather interview from the choice of people who graduated six months ago: those who have sat on their hands for six months doing nothing more than scanning jobs adverts and similar, or the people who have done, or tried to do, something practical with some of the time they had available?</p><p>To cut a long story short: as pointed out by the responder above both networking and volunteering can help and the two techniques can be mutually supportive of each other. And if you are not lucky enough to find any good opportunities, what have you lost by trying?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Way to be helpful , might as well utter that old adage , " You should have thought about it before .
" That does n't alter the fact that however the point was presented , or however unintentionally up-his-own-arse the person making the point may have seemed to take the more negative stance , it is a very valid point .
Networking can help a lot in may cases.Maybe it is the Sunday evening pub meal and drinks talking ( as I 'm not usually one to give the benefit of the doubt !
) but I did n't read the post you replied to as " this is what I did but you are too late nyar nyar n nyar nyar " , but more as " this is what I did and this is how it helped my plans " .
The OP could still try the technique - there may be opportunities locally for some sort of technical volunteer work that could be used as the same sort of " CV fodder " spring-board and/or to gain a good reference for future applications for paid work .
While the relatively easy-to-access college volunteer work option has gone for the OP there are likely to be opportunities to look for at this later stage .
There may well be departments/organisations related to the University or its student bodies or local charities that could use some technical help but can ill afford a trained/accredited resource .
If you can get in contact with someone like that at an appropriate time it can be a win/win situation : they get the temporary technical help they need but ca n't actually afford and the OP gets some CV fodder and/or a useful reference , or at least some experience that could be talked about at interview .
Having some real world " dealing with users " / " dealing with customers " / " dealing with management " / " real-world problem solving " experience to talk about critically in an interview can make a massive difference to your chances once you get as far as the interview - it can indicate to the interviewer that not only do you know some facts/techniques but you are also capable of applying them outside academic situations and are capable of dealing with the real people in the real world at the same time .
( by " talk about critically " I do n't mean just " having a go " about the things that were/went wrong , I mean " what went well and why , what could have been done better , how would you approach the same task again if you had the power of hindsight , how were other people/resources helpful or not " and so on - constructive critique of your progress and experience ) Ever if you do n't even manage any of that the exposure , through volunteering , to work outside an academic environment might teach you some useful stuff - even if only " I do n't actually like X " or " I more enjoy Y and I 'm more proficient in it than Z " or " hmmm , I did n't realise I would need A so much , maybe evidence of reading around / practising / otherwise persuing that area will help me jump from the CV stage to the interview stage more easily " .If you have time and can find volunteer work it will rarely be a disadvantage to you - especially if you are otherwise completely unemployed because it is n't like there would be a lot else practical to fill your time with .
This in itself helps a CV/application look more attractive - which would you rather interview from the choice of people who graduated six months ago : those who have sat on their hands for six months doing nothing more than scanning jobs adverts and similar , or the people who have done , or tried to do , something practical with some of the time they had available ? To cut a long story short : as pointed out by the responder above both networking and volunteering can help and the two techniques can be mutually supportive of each other .
And if you are not lucky enough to find any good opportunities , what have you lost by trying ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Way to be helpful, might as well utter that old adage, "You should have thought about it before.
"That doesn't alter the fact that however the point was presented, or however unintentionally up-his-own-arse the person making the point may have seemed to take the more negative stance, it is a very valid point.
Networking can help a lot in may cases.Maybe it is the Sunday evening pub meal and drinks talking (as I'm not usually one to give the benefit of the doubt!
) but I didn't read the post you replied to as "this is what I did but you are too late nyar nyar n nyar nyar", but more as "this is what I did and this is how it helped my plans".
The OP could still try the technique - there may be opportunities locally for some sort of technical volunteer work that could be used as the same sort of "CV fodder" spring-board and/or to gain a good reference for future applications for paid work.
While the relatively easy-to-access college volunteer work option has gone for the OP there are likely to be opportunities to look for at this later stage.
There may well be departments/organisations related to the University or its student bodies or local charities that could use some technical help but can ill afford a trained/accredited resource.
If you can get in contact with someone like that at an appropriate time it can be a win/win situation: they get the temporary technical help they need but can't actually afford and the OP gets some CV fodder and/or a useful reference, or at least some experience that could be talked about at interview.
Having some real world "dealing with users" / "dealing with customers" / "dealing with management" / "real-world problem solving" experience to talk about critically in an interview can make a massive difference to your chances once you get as far as the interview - it can indicate to the interviewer that not only do you know some facts/techniques but you are also capable of applying them outside academic situations and are capable of dealing with the real people in the real world at the same time.
(by "talk about critically" I don't mean just "having a go" about the things that were/went wrong, I mean "what went well and why, what could have been done better, how would you approach the same task again if you had the power of hindsight, how were other people/resources helpful or not" and so on - constructive critique of your progress and experience)Ever if you don't even manage any of that the exposure, through volunteering, to work outside an academic environment might teach you some useful stuff - even if only "I don't actually like X" or "I more enjoy Y and I'm more proficient in it than Z" or "hmmm, I didn't realise I would need A so much, maybe evidence of reading around / practising / otherwise persuing that area will help me jump from the CV stage to the interview stage more easily".If you have time and can find volunteer work it will rarely be a disadvantage to you - especially if you are otherwise completely unemployed because it isn't like there would be a lot else practical to fill your time with.
This in itself helps a CV/application look more attractive - which would you rather interview from the choice of people who graduated six months ago: those who have sat on their hands for six months doing nothing more than scanning jobs adverts and similar, or the people who have done, or tried to do, something practical with some of the time they had available?To cut a long story short: as pointed out by the responder above both networking and volunteering can help and the two techniques can be mutually supportive of each other.
And if you are not lucky enough to find any good opportunities, what have you lost by trying?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650524</parent>
</comment>
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_208210_43</id>
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_208210_45</id>
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_28_208210_8</id>
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http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31650704
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_28_208210.31652102
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