<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_03_27_1228219</id>
	<title>NYC Drops $722M On CityTime Attendance System</title>
	<author>Soulskill</author>
	<datestamp>1269699600000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>theodp writes <i>"New York City is reportedly <a href="http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2010/03/26/2010-03-26\_city\_pours\_722m\_down\_consulting\_contracts\_black\_hole.html">paying 230 consultants an average annual salary of $400K</a> for a computer project that is seven years behind schedule and vastly over budget. The payments continue despite Mayor Bloomberg's admission that the computerized timekeeping and payroll system &mdash; dubbed <a href="http://www.nyc.gov/html/opa/html/about/city\_time.shtml">CityTime</a> &mdash; is 'a disaster.' Eleven CityTime consultants rake in more than $600K annually, with three of them making as much as $676,000. The 40 highest-paid people on the project bill taxpayers at least $500K a year. Some of the consultants have been working at these rates for as long as a decade."</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>theodp writes " New York City is reportedly paying 230 consultants an average annual salary of $ 400K for a computer project that is seven years behind schedule and vastly over budget .
The payments continue despite Mayor Bloomberg 's admission that the computerized timekeeping and payroll system    dubbed CityTime    is 'a disaster .
' Eleven CityTime consultants rake in more than $ 600K annually , with three of them making as much as $ 676,000 .
The 40 highest-paid people on the project bill taxpayers at least $ 500K a year .
Some of the consultants have been working at these rates for as long as a decade .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>theodp writes "New York City is reportedly paying 230 consultants an average annual salary of $400K for a computer project that is seven years behind schedule and vastly over budget.
The payments continue despite Mayor Bloomberg's admission that the computerized timekeeping and payroll system — dubbed CityTime — is 'a disaster.
' Eleven CityTime consultants rake in more than $600K annually, with three of them making as much as $676,000.
The 40 highest-paid people on the project bill taxpayers at least $500K a year.
Some of the consultants have been working at these rates for as long as a decade.
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639410</id>
	<title>They should have hired....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269704640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>2300 high lever bureaucrats @40k/year or,<br>4600 low level bureaucrats @20k/year or,<br>9200 Mexicans @10k/year or,<br>23000 interns @4k/year or,<br>Give everyone a bonus for working late till 5 am.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>2300 high lever bureaucrats @ 40k/year or,4600 low level bureaucrats @ 20k/year or,9200 Mexicans @ 10k/year or,23000 interns @ 4k/year or,Give everyone a bonus for working late till 5 am .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>2300 high lever bureaucrats @40k/year or,4600 low level bureaucrats @20k/year or,9200 Mexicans @10k/year or,23000 interns @4k/year or,Give everyone a bonus for working late till 5 am.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640998</id>
	<title>Re:Government Project Cost Overruns?</title>
	<author>MikeURL</author>
	<datestamp>1269715380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Democrats, yes.  But NYC has a history of not giving the dems 100\% control.  We have been electing non-democrats to the Mayor's office for quite a while.  We saw what happens when the dems have the entire city government under their control.  No one wants that again.
<br> <br>
Having said that this is a pretty big failure to get by a manager as astute as M Bloomberg.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Democrats , yes .
But NYC has a history of not giving the dems 100 \ % control .
We have been electing non-democrats to the Mayor 's office for quite a while .
We saw what happens when the dems have the entire city government under their control .
No one wants that again .
Having said that this is a pretty big failure to get by a manager as astute as M Bloomberg .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Democrats, yes.
But NYC has a history of not giving the dems 100\% control.
We have been electing non-democrats to the Mayor's office for quite a while.
We saw what happens when the dems have the entire city government under their control.
No one wants that again.
Having said that this is a pretty big failure to get by a manager as astute as M Bloomberg.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639452</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639266</id>
	<title>Government Project Cost Overruns?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269703620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Perish the thought.

</p><p>My little sister is currently reviewing proposals for a landfill for her Arizona suburb.  All the estimates say it will last 50 years.  My father (a civil engineer) told her to ask this question:

</p><p>"What was your estimate on the last landfill's lifetime, and how long did it actually last?"

</p><p>I have a friend who was a teacher in California for a year.  She was laid off and promptly given 2/3rds her previous salary in unemployment benefits.  Pretty good for keeping the same employer and just not working anymore.  If I tried that it would result in a 100\% pay cut.

</p><p>Governments waste money.  Your local government does it.  Your state government.  I can't think of any examples off the top of my head (/sarcasm) but I'm pretty sure the federal government does it, too.

</p><p>And yet many of the same people who will cry foul over this will be first in line telling the government it is morally obligated to provide X social program or prop up Y industry "for the good of the country."  Surely <i>that</i> isn't a colossal waste, won't go to lining the pockets of consultants, won't get dragged down by graft, won't go over budget estimations, et cetera.

</p><p>Surely.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Perish the thought .
My little sister is currently reviewing proposals for a landfill for her Arizona suburb .
All the estimates say it will last 50 years .
My father ( a civil engineer ) told her to ask this question : " What was your estimate on the last landfill 's lifetime , and how long did it actually last ?
" I have a friend who was a teacher in California for a year .
She was laid off and promptly given 2/3rds her previous salary in unemployment benefits .
Pretty good for keeping the same employer and just not working anymore .
If I tried that it would result in a 100 \ % pay cut .
Governments waste money .
Your local government does it .
Your state government .
I ca n't think of any examples off the top of my head ( /sarcasm ) but I 'm pretty sure the federal government does it , too .
And yet many of the same people who will cry foul over this will be first in line telling the government it is morally obligated to provide X social program or prop up Y industry " for the good of the country .
" Surely that is n't a colossal waste , wo n't go to lining the pockets of consultants , wo n't get dragged down by graft , wo n't go over budget estimations , et cetera .
Surely .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Perish the thought.
My little sister is currently reviewing proposals for a landfill for her Arizona suburb.
All the estimates say it will last 50 years.
My father (a civil engineer) told her to ask this question:

"What was your estimate on the last landfill's lifetime, and how long did it actually last?
"

I have a friend who was a teacher in California for a year.
She was laid off and promptly given 2/3rds her previous salary in unemployment benefits.
Pretty good for keeping the same employer and just not working anymore.
If I tried that it would result in a 100\% pay cut.
Governments waste money.
Your local government does it.
Your state government.
I can't think of any examples off the top of my head (/sarcasm) but I'm pretty sure the federal government does it, too.
And yet many of the same people who will cry foul over this will be first in line telling the government it is morally obligated to provide X social program or prop up Y industry "for the good of the country.
"  Surely that isn't a colossal waste, won't go to lining the pockets of consultants, won't get dragged down by graft, won't go over budget estimations, et cetera.
Surely.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639734</id>
	<title>Re:Government Project Cost Overruns?</title>
	<author>superscalar</author>
	<datestamp>1269707400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Of course this is disgraceful, but it's by no means limited to government - there's plenty of waste in private industry, we just don't hear about it as much.  I have a friend who recently worked as a consultant for one of the big health insurers in California.  She talked about a multi-hundred-million-dollar development project on a new IT system that they scrapped before implementing.  You'd think someone could have pulled the plug before the project got into 9 figures.</p><p>Of course, from a cost standpoint, healthcare is a disaster here in the US (I think we spend about 2x as much per-person as the next highest country, and I suspect it will only get worse under the new reforms).  Having relatives who work in healthcare, and seeing the mess that's resulted from multiple, independent providers who don't share data efficiently (i.e. hospitals, doctors and clinics) and multiple, independent insurance monopolies that negotiate separately with each provider, I can't imagine a public healthcare system wouldn't be better than what we have.  Of course, half the country seems to think having the government involved in healthcare is 'evil socialism'... at least until they hit 65 and go on Medicare, at which point most of them seem to like it.</p><p>When I see how the US reacts to complex debates like this it's hard to believe we've been as economically and militarily successful as we have.</p><p>- ss</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Of course this is disgraceful , but it 's by no means limited to government - there 's plenty of waste in private industry , we just do n't hear about it as much .
I have a friend who recently worked as a consultant for one of the big health insurers in California .
She talked about a multi-hundred-million-dollar development project on a new IT system that they scrapped before implementing .
You 'd think someone could have pulled the plug before the project got into 9 figures.Of course , from a cost standpoint , healthcare is a disaster here in the US ( I think we spend about 2x as much per-person as the next highest country , and I suspect it will only get worse under the new reforms ) .
Having relatives who work in healthcare , and seeing the mess that 's resulted from multiple , independent providers who do n't share data efficiently ( i.e .
hospitals , doctors and clinics ) and multiple , independent insurance monopolies that negotiate separately with each provider , I ca n't imagine a public healthcare system would n't be better than what we have .
Of course , half the country seems to think having the government involved in healthcare is 'evil socialism'... at least until they hit 65 and go on Medicare , at which point most of them seem to like it.When I see how the US reacts to complex debates like this it 's hard to believe we 've been as economically and militarily successful as we have.- ss</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Of course this is disgraceful, but it's by no means limited to government - there's plenty of waste in private industry, we just don't hear about it as much.
I have a friend who recently worked as a consultant for one of the big health insurers in California.
She talked about a multi-hundred-million-dollar development project on a new IT system that they scrapped before implementing.
You'd think someone could have pulled the plug before the project got into 9 figures.Of course, from a cost standpoint, healthcare is a disaster here in the US (I think we spend about 2x as much per-person as the next highest country, and I suspect it will only get worse under the new reforms).
Having relatives who work in healthcare, and seeing the mess that's resulted from multiple, independent providers who don't share data efficiently (i.e.
hospitals, doctors and clinics) and multiple, independent insurance monopolies that negotiate separately with each provider, I can't imagine a public healthcare system wouldn't be better than what we have.
Of course, half the country seems to think having the government involved in healthcare is 'evil socialism'... at least until they hit 65 and go on Medicare, at which point most of them seem to like it.When I see how the US reacts to complex debates like this it's hard to believe we've been as economically and militarily successful as we have.- ss</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640744</id>
	<title>Re:This is a *private* sector project</title>
	<author>PeeAitchPee</author>
	<datestamp>1269713700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>No fucking excuse.  I don't care who's doing the work.  Why is this level of suck ever tolerated, anywhere?  <b>The government signs the checks . . . no one else.</b>  If it's a contractual issue that keeps NYC paying for this, they were retards to sign up in the first place.  Litigate, or break the contract.  But this can't go on any longer.  With the insane taxes NY / NYC residents already pay (and taxpayers nationwide in the form of Federal stimulus $$$ that NY gets), this type of waste and incompetence (and undoubtedly fraud) is simply unexcusable.  Heads should roll, politicians should lose their jobs, and members of the private firm should be blacklisted permanently to keep them from doing this somewhere else.  There need to be *consequences* for the government AND the private firm doing the work.  Part of the reason we're in so much trouble in this country is that so many don't want it to hurt anymore when you touch a hot stove.</htmltext>
<tokenext>No fucking excuse .
I do n't care who 's doing the work .
Why is this level of suck ever tolerated , anywhere ?
The government signs the checks .
. .
no one else .
If it 's a contractual issue that keeps NYC paying for this , they were retards to sign up in the first place .
Litigate , or break the contract .
But this ca n't go on any longer .
With the insane taxes NY / NYC residents already pay ( and taxpayers nationwide in the form of Federal stimulus $ $ $ that NY gets ) , this type of waste and incompetence ( and undoubtedly fraud ) is simply unexcusable .
Heads should roll , politicians should lose their jobs , and members of the private firm should be blacklisted permanently to keep them from doing this somewhere else .
There need to be * consequences * for the government AND the private firm doing the work .
Part of the reason we 're in so much trouble in this country is that so many do n't want it to hurt anymore when you touch a hot stove .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No fucking excuse.
I don't care who's doing the work.
Why is this level of suck ever tolerated, anywhere?
The government signs the checks .
. .
no one else.
If it's a contractual issue that keeps NYC paying for this, they were retards to sign up in the first place.
Litigate, or break the contract.
But this can't go on any longer.
With the insane taxes NY / NYC residents already pay (and taxpayers nationwide in the form of Federal stimulus $$$ that NY gets), this type of waste and incompetence (and undoubtedly fraud) is simply unexcusable.
Heads should roll, politicians should lose their jobs, and members of the private firm should be blacklisted permanently to keep them from doing this somewhere else.
There need to be *consequences* for the government AND the private firm doing the work.
Part of the reason we're in so much trouble in this country is that so many don't want it to hurt anymore when you touch a hot stove.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639768</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31643702</id>
	<title>Re:Corruption</title>
	<author>Korin43</author>
	<datestamp>1269694740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think the major thing is that in the U.S., our government is owned by big companies, so corruption like this is expected. If someone who wasn't elected managed to stop this, they'd be fired for stopping the corruption. If someone who was elected stopped this, they wouldn't be elected because their sponsors would stop giving them money.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think the major thing is that in the U.S. , our government is owned by big companies , so corruption like this is expected .
If someone who was n't elected managed to stop this , they 'd be fired for stopping the corruption .
If someone who was elected stopped this , they would n't be elected because their sponsors would stop giving them money .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think the major thing is that in the U.S., our government is owned by big companies, so corruption like this is expected.
If someone who wasn't elected managed to stop this, they'd be fired for stopping the corruption.
If someone who was elected stopped this, they wouldn't be elected because their sponsors would stop giving them money.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639800</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31643574</id>
	<title>But lets tax soda...</title>
	<author>Jackie\_Chan\_Fan</author>
	<datestamp>1269693600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>give me a break.</p><p>600K a YEAR?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>give me a break.600K a YEAR ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>give me a break.600K a YEAR?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640606</id>
	<title>Re:Government Project Cost Overruns?</title>
	<author>ibsteve2u</author>
	<datestamp>1269712620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The responses to your comment had me shaking with laughter...so many so quick to seize the opportunity to blame government, and unions, and political parties...each overlooking the fact that this project was created and handed to "private enterprise" by Giuliani.  And for that, the public is paying the price.</p><p>The bottom line truth is the right does not object to the taxpayers' money being wasted <i> <b>unless</b> </i> they are not getting a cut.  The <b>real</b> right <i>is</i> private enterprise; they'll buy whatever variety of politician it takes to give them the ability to create $720 million invoices for time-keeping systems.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The responses to your comment had me shaking with laughter...so many so quick to seize the opportunity to blame government , and unions , and political parties...each overlooking the fact that this project was created and handed to " private enterprise " by Giuliani .
And for that , the public is paying the price.The bottom line truth is the right does not object to the taxpayers ' money being wasted unless they are not getting a cut .
The real right is private enterprise ; they 'll buy whatever variety of politician it takes to give them the ability to create $ 720 million invoices for time-keeping systems .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The responses to your comment had me shaking with laughter...so many so quick to seize the opportunity to blame government, and unions, and political parties...each overlooking the fact that this project was created and handed to "private enterprise" by Giuliani.
And for that, the public is paying the price.The bottom line truth is the right does not object to the taxpayers' money being wasted  unless  they are not getting a cut.
The real right is private enterprise; they'll buy whatever variety of politician it takes to give them the ability to create $720 million invoices for time-keeping systems.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639272</id>
	<title>CityTime Forever</title>
	<author>CyberDragon777</author>
	<datestamp>1269703620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Coming Soon</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Coming Soon</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Coming Soon</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639544</id>
	<title>Re:Slaves</title>
	<author>Svartalf</author>
	<datestamp>1269705780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No, it's to track the hours they worked so they can be properly paid- the other part is just data that the system provides so that managers can know they're cheating on the system.</p><p>Since it's effectively little more than a fancy punch clock, I'd think that it'd not be THAT difficult to do.  I'm amazed that they're pouring that much cash into a bottomless pit on this- and then doing more of it instead of pulling the plug and starting over.</p><p>Screw egg on face moments here- you're pouring $722 <em> <b>MILLION</b> </em> dollars into what is an overglorified punch clock system.  If it's not working by now, it's not going to EVER work right and that's some serious good money after bad that could be put elsewhere.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No , it 's to track the hours they worked so they can be properly paid- the other part is just data that the system provides so that managers can know they 're cheating on the system.Since it 's effectively little more than a fancy punch clock , I 'd think that it 'd not be THAT difficult to do .
I 'm amazed that they 're pouring that much cash into a bottomless pit on this- and then doing more of it instead of pulling the plug and starting over.Screw egg on face moments here- you 're pouring $ 722 MILLION dollars into what is an overglorified punch clock system .
If it 's not working by now , it 's not going to EVER work right and that 's some serious good money after bad that could be put elsewhere .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, it's to track the hours they worked so they can be properly paid- the other part is just data that the system provides so that managers can know they're cheating on the system.Since it's effectively little more than a fancy punch clock, I'd think that it'd not be THAT difficult to do.
I'm amazed that they're pouring that much cash into a bottomless pit on this- and then doing more of it instead of pulling the plug and starting over.Screw egg on face moments here- you're pouring $722  MILLION  dollars into what is an overglorified punch clock system.
If it's not working by now, it's not going to EVER work right and that's some serious good money after bad that could be put elsewhere.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639226</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639936</id>
	<title>Re:Government Project Cost Overruns?</title>
	<author>mellon</author>
	<datestamp>1269708960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're absolutely right.   Corporate welfare is evil.   We should stop it.   Which party, and which candidates, advocate stopping it?   Do you for them, or for their opponents?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're absolutely right .
Corporate welfare is evil .
We should stop it .
Which party , and which candidates , advocate stopping it ?
Do you for them , or for their opponents ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're absolutely right.
Corporate welfare is evil.
We should stop it.
Which party, and which candidates, advocate stopping it?
Do you for them, or for their opponents?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639840</id>
	<title>SAIC vs. contractor rates</title>
	<author>aclarke</author>
	<datestamp>1269708180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>First, I want to make it clear that I think these rates are ridiculous and I absolutely do not support them.  However...
<br> <br>
The rates quoted are the rates SAIC is charging.  They are NOT the rates the contractors are paid.  The article is very misleading on this point and I'm surprised that this hasn't been picked up on here.
<br> <br>
If SAIC charges their client $600k per year for a consultant, SAIC is probably paying that employee, say, $140k.  It's extremely disingenuous to state that these contractors themselves are making this type of salary.  It is their employer who is billing this kind of money for their employees' time.
<br> <br>
I'm sure there's a lot of blame to go around here, but from reading the article the only people I can say are DEFINITELY to blame are the ones at the government who approved SAIC's budget.</htmltext>
<tokenext>First , I want to make it clear that I think these rates are ridiculous and I absolutely do not support them .
However.. . The rates quoted are the rates SAIC is charging .
They are NOT the rates the contractors are paid .
The article is very misleading on this point and I 'm surprised that this has n't been picked up on here .
If SAIC charges their client $ 600k per year for a consultant , SAIC is probably paying that employee , say , $ 140k .
It 's extremely disingenuous to state that these contractors themselves are making this type of salary .
It is their employer who is billing this kind of money for their employees ' time .
I 'm sure there 's a lot of blame to go around here , but from reading the article the only people I can say are DEFINITELY to blame are the ones at the government who approved SAIC 's budget .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First, I want to make it clear that I think these rates are ridiculous and I absolutely do not support them.
However...
 
The rates quoted are the rates SAIC is charging.
They are NOT the rates the contractors are paid.
The article is very misleading on this point and I'm surprised that this hasn't been picked up on here.
If SAIC charges their client $600k per year for a consultant, SAIC is probably paying that employee, say, $140k.
It's extremely disingenuous to state that these contractors themselves are making this type of salary.
It is their employer who is billing this kind of money for their employees' time.
I'm sure there's a lot of blame to go around here, but from reading the article the only people I can say are DEFINITELY to blame are the ones at the government who approved SAIC's budget.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640136</id>
	<title>I'm a New Yorker and I for one am pissed</title>
	<author>mattwad</author>
	<datestamp>1269710220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Two days ago, the MTA transportation committed to a cut eliminating the W subway line, shortening others, also eliminating buse lines, and benefits for students, etc. Worse, it is just the beginning of further cuts to tackle their $1 billion deficit.
<p>
If you really care about your workers, which is more important - making sure they make it to work on time, or making sure they have the means to get there in the first place?
</p><p>
Ref: <a href="http://www.nydailynews.com/ny\_local/2010/03/24/2010-03-24\_mta\_board\_approves\_sweeping\_bus\_subway\_service\_cuts\_that\_will\_mean\_long\_waits\_cr.html" title="nydailynews.com" rel="nofollow">nydailynews.com</a> [nydailynews.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Two days ago , the MTA transportation committed to a cut eliminating the W subway line , shortening others , also eliminating buse lines , and benefits for students , etc .
Worse , it is just the beginning of further cuts to tackle their $ 1 billion deficit .
If you really care about your workers , which is more important - making sure they make it to work on time , or making sure they have the means to get there in the first place ?
Ref : nydailynews.com [ nydailynews.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Two days ago, the MTA transportation committed to a cut eliminating the W subway line, shortening others, also eliminating buse lines, and benefits for students, etc.
Worse, it is just the beginning of further cuts to tackle their $1 billion deficit.
If you really care about your workers, which is more important - making sure they make it to work on time, or making sure they have the means to get there in the first place?
Ref: nydailynews.com [nydailynews.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31643854</id>
	<title>Re:Slaves</title>
	<author>ajlisows</author>
	<datestamp>1269696600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My anecdote deal with a private company, but I think it is still applicable to people working a government job.</p><p>I worked for a 1000+ person manufacturing facility.  Everyone on the shop floor was hourly as well as a lot of the office workers.  The "Higher Up" office workers were salaried.  Salaried was really cool at that company.  You didn't clock in and you could just take off when you needed to.  Salaried workers would do a 12 hour day and then take off 3 hours early later in the week to take their kids to the doctor.  Need a three day weekend?  Get your work done earlier and take the day off.  Decide you want the day after Christmas off?  Ok.  Having a salaried position was pretty awesome.</p><p>I am pretty sure you can imagine how this turned out.  Most of the people were very happy to have this flexibility and worked really hard for the company and were reasonable with their off time.  A few people were not.  The worst offender was an Engineering manager who took off 77 days during the year.  The company responded by saying "Hey, you guys obviously cannot be reasonable about this so salaried employees will now be punching the clock.  They will also have vacation days just like hourly.  You want 3 hours off?  That will cost you a half day."  </p><p>The moral of the story?  Time and attendance isn't "Slavery".  It is pretty much necessary.  You can try the "Honor System" with employees and many will be pleased but you'll always get those that want to abuse the shit out of it and laugh about making money without working.  The idea of every average Joe being a good honest person working for corrupt politicians and CEO's is pretty naive.  Put Average Joe in a position where he can screw someone out of money and there is a decent chance he will.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My anecdote deal with a private company , but I think it is still applicable to people working a government job.I worked for a 1000 + person manufacturing facility .
Everyone on the shop floor was hourly as well as a lot of the office workers .
The " Higher Up " office workers were salaried .
Salaried was really cool at that company .
You did n't clock in and you could just take off when you needed to .
Salaried workers would do a 12 hour day and then take off 3 hours early later in the week to take their kids to the doctor .
Need a three day weekend ?
Get your work done earlier and take the day off .
Decide you want the day after Christmas off ?
Ok. Having a salaried position was pretty awesome.I am pretty sure you can imagine how this turned out .
Most of the people were very happy to have this flexibility and worked really hard for the company and were reasonable with their off time .
A few people were not .
The worst offender was an Engineering manager who took off 77 days during the year .
The company responded by saying " Hey , you guys obviously can not be reasonable about this so salaried employees will now be punching the clock .
They will also have vacation days just like hourly .
You want 3 hours off ?
That will cost you a half day .
" The moral of the story ?
Time and attendance is n't " Slavery " .
It is pretty much necessary .
You can try the " Honor System " with employees and many will be pleased but you 'll always get those that want to abuse the shit out of it and laugh about making money without working .
The idea of every average Joe being a good honest person working for corrupt politicians and CEO 's is pretty naive .
Put Average Joe in a position where he can screw someone out of money and there is a decent chance he will .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My anecdote deal with a private company, but I think it is still applicable to people working a government job.I worked for a 1000+ person manufacturing facility.
Everyone on the shop floor was hourly as well as a lot of the office workers.
The "Higher Up" office workers were salaried.
Salaried was really cool at that company.
You didn't clock in and you could just take off when you needed to.
Salaried workers would do a 12 hour day and then take off 3 hours early later in the week to take their kids to the doctor.
Need a three day weekend?
Get your work done earlier and take the day off.
Decide you want the day after Christmas off?
Ok.  Having a salaried position was pretty awesome.I am pretty sure you can imagine how this turned out.
Most of the people were very happy to have this flexibility and worked really hard for the company and were reasonable with their off time.
A few people were not.
The worst offender was an Engineering manager who took off 77 days during the year.
The company responded by saying "Hey, you guys obviously cannot be reasonable about this so salaried employees will now be punching the clock.
They will also have vacation days just like hourly.
You want 3 hours off?
That will cost you a half day.
"  The moral of the story?
Time and attendance isn't "Slavery".
It is pretty much necessary.
You can try the "Honor System" with employees and many will be pleased but you'll always get those that want to abuse the shit out of it and laugh about making money without working.
The idea of every average Joe being a good honest person working for corrupt politicians and CEO's is pretty naive.
Put Average Joe in a position where he can screw someone out of money and there is a decent chance he will.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639458</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639502</id>
	<title>Re:Problem = Managers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269705420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>This sort of thing happens in many, many businesses. The difference is that many businesses aren't required to report those figures and even then they are under far less scrutiny. I assure you this is about par course for American business in general both public and private.</p></div><p>Another "but business does it too" remark. There's a lot more difference than merely who business has to report to. Business isn't required by government to report these figures, but they are required by their Board of Directors to report whatever data the Board of Directors wants. Now maybe the BoD is too busy yacht racing or whatever to do their job. That is a problem of the owners of the business. Ultimately, the owners are the ones who lose out when a business gets out of control like this. That's how accountability works in the business world.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>There are better ways to do things, but until we vastly change the corporate culture that everyone is used to operating under we aren't going to see more efficiencies. The reality is that it's not the "government" wasting money here because this is what everyone that goes into these projects expects to be doing. And this is generally something that scales with said project; so cheaper projects get cheaper prices on management but it is still disproportionately higher than those that are doing the actual work.</p></div><p>Except that it is New York City, a government, that is squandering public funds on this project. And it's not corporate culture that is the problem, but lack of accountability. This magically holds for government projects like the one of this story too.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>This sort of thing happens in many , many businesses .
The difference is that many businesses are n't required to report those figures and even then they are under far less scrutiny .
I assure you this is about par course for American business in general both public and private.Another " but business does it too " remark .
There 's a lot more difference than merely who business has to report to .
Business is n't required by government to report these figures , but they are required by their Board of Directors to report whatever data the Board of Directors wants .
Now maybe the BoD is too busy yacht racing or whatever to do their job .
That is a problem of the owners of the business .
Ultimately , the owners are the ones who lose out when a business gets out of control like this .
That 's how accountability works in the business world.There are better ways to do things , but until we vastly change the corporate culture that everyone is used to operating under we are n't going to see more efficiencies .
The reality is that it 's not the " government " wasting money here because this is what everyone that goes into these projects expects to be doing .
And this is generally something that scales with said project ; so cheaper projects get cheaper prices on management but it is still disproportionately higher than those that are doing the actual work.Except that it is New York City , a government , that is squandering public funds on this project .
And it 's not corporate culture that is the problem , but lack of accountability .
This magically holds for government projects like the one of this story too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This sort of thing happens in many, many businesses.
The difference is that many businesses aren't required to report those figures and even then they are under far less scrutiny.
I assure you this is about par course for American business in general both public and private.Another "but business does it too" remark.
There's a lot more difference than merely who business has to report to.
Business isn't required by government to report these figures, but they are required by their Board of Directors to report whatever data the Board of Directors wants.
Now maybe the BoD is too busy yacht racing or whatever to do their job.
That is a problem of the owners of the business.
Ultimately, the owners are the ones who lose out when a business gets out of control like this.
That's how accountability works in the business world.There are better ways to do things, but until we vastly change the corporate culture that everyone is used to operating under we aren't going to see more efficiencies.
The reality is that it's not the "government" wasting money here because this is what everyone that goes into these projects expects to be doing.
And this is generally something that scales with said project; so cheaper projects get cheaper prices on management but it is still disproportionately higher than those that are doing the actual work.Except that it is New York City, a government, that is squandering public funds on this project.
And it's not corporate culture that is the problem, but lack of accountability.
This magically holds for government projects like the one of this story too.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639352</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639244</id>
	<title>Deadlines</title>
	<author>xerent\_sweden</author>
	<datestamp>1269703500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I guess they need some kind of system to keep track of their timetables and salaries!</htmltext>
<tokenext>I guess they need some kind of system to keep track of their timetables and salaries !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I guess they need some kind of system to keep track of their timetables and salaries!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640068</id>
	<title>Refund?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269709860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why don't governments at all levels have a refund clause for their contractors? If the project is not delivered, working and on time, the government gets all it's money back. Or start charging 1\% of the total value per day it is late. Guarantee that the "design a hopelessly optimistic time and budget estimate to win the bid and then take twice as long at four times the cost" business model would disappear.</p><p>Just my $.02. Delivered four years from now at $2.00.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why do n't governments at all levels have a refund clause for their contractors ?
If the project is not delivered , working and on time , the government gets all it 's money back .
Or start charging 1 \ % of the total value per day it is late .
Guarantee that the " design a hopelessly optimistic time and budget estimate to win the bid and then take twice as long at four times the cost " business model would disappear.Just my $ .02 .
Delivered four years from now at $ 2.00 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why don't governments at all levels have a refund clause for their contractors?
If the project is not delivered, working and on time, the government gets all it's money back.
Or start charging 1\% of the total value per day it is late.
Guarantee that the "design a hopelessly optimistic time and budget estimate to win the bid and then take twice as long at four times the cost" business model would disappear.Just my $.02.
Delivered four years from now at $2.00.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640812</id>
	<title>Re:Problem = Managers</title>
	<author>Hognoxious</author>
	<datestamp>1269714060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>In fact, the people actually doing the grunt work on the project are likely making 10\% of the stated figures.</p></div></blockquote><p>If the average is 400k and the highest is in the 600k range there can't be very many of these grunts.</p><p>Maybe that's the problem.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>In fact , the people actually doing the grunt work on the project are likely making 10 \ % of the stated figures.If the average is 400k and the highest is in the 600k range there ca n't be very many of these grunts.Maybe that 's the problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In fact, the people actually doing the grunt work on the project are likely making 10\% of the stated figures.If the average is 400k and the highest is in the 600k range there can't be very many of these grunts.Maybe that's the problem.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639352</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31642166</id>
	<title>Re:This is a *private* sector project</title>
	<author>Bigjeff5</author>
	<datestamp>1269680820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>public sector is incompetent but at least its well meaning incompetence<br>private sector is incompetence combined with greed</p><p>ill take the first one</p></div><p>I don't see the difference, and I would fire both if I could.</p><p>At least I have the option to fire the second.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>public sector is incompetent but at least its well meaning incompetenceprivate sector is incompetence combined with greedill take the first oneI do n't see the difference , and I would fire both if I could.At least I have the option to fire the second .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>public sector is incompetent but at least its well meaning incompetenceprivate sector is incompetence combined with greedill take the first oneI don't see the difference, and I would fire both if I could.At least I have the option to fire the second.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640690</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640572</id>
	<title>Re:Government Project Cost Overruns?</title>
	<author>Vellmont</author>
	<datestamp>1269712500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i><br>Governments waste money. Your local government does it. Your state government. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head (/sarcasm) but I'm pretty sure the federal government does it, too.<br></i><br>Private industry wastes gobs of money as well.  The reason you don't hear about it is that the government actually has to report on what it spent, where private industry can usually sweep it all under the table.</p><p>Have you never heard of failed projects in private industry that wasted millions of dollars?  Sometimes private enterprise has a very public failure they wasted millions of dollars on that's so public they can't sweep it under the rug.  The <a href="http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&amp;refer=home&amp;sid=a9bRidj83NBQ" title="bloomberg.com">London Stock Exchange</a> [bloomberg.com]is a good example.  (Brought to you by the fine folks at Accenture, whom I personally know have completely fucked up two other large projects).</p><p>Idiotic and colossal failures of software projects are embarrassingly common.  I'm sure anyone worth their salt on slashdot has heard of many such failures in private industry.  I know I have.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Governments waste money .
Your local government does it .
Your state government .
I ca n't think of any examples off the top of my head ( /sarcasm ) but I 'm pretty sure the federal government does it , too.Private industry wastes gobs of money as well .
The reason you do n't hear about it is that the government actually has to report on what it spent , where private industry can usually sweep it all under the table.Have you never heard of failed projects in private industry that wasted millions of dollars ?
Sometimes private enterprise has a very public failure they wasted millions of dollars on that 's so public they ca n't sweep it under the rug .
The London Stock Exchange [ bloomberg.com ] is a good example .
( Brought to you by the fine folks at Accenture , whom I personally know have completely fucked up two other large projects ) .Idiotic and colossal failures of software projects are embarrassingly common .
I 'm sure anyone worth their salt on slashdot has heard of many such failures in private industry .
I know I have .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Governments waste money.
Your local government does it.
Your state government.
I can't think of any examples off the top of my head (/sarcasm) but I'm pretty sure the federal government does it, too.Private industry wastes gobs of money as well.
The reason you don't hear about it is that the government actually has to report on what it spent, where private industry can usually sweep it all under the table.Have you never heard of failed projects in private industry that wasted millions of dollars?
Sometimes private enterprise has a very public failure they wasted millions of dollars on that's so public they can't sweep it under the rug.
The London Stock Exchange [bloomberg.com]is a good example.
(Brought to you by the fine folks at Accenture, whom I personally know have completely fucked up two other large projects).Idiotic and colossal failures of software projects are embarrassingly common.
I'm sure anyone worth their salt on slashdot has heard of many such failures in private industry.
I know I have.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639698</id>
	<title>Saving Money</title>
	<author>rlp</author>
	<datestamp>1269707100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They are saving money, because any off-the-shelf time-tracking software would cost much more than $722 million.  Oh, wait<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They are saving money , because any off-the-shelf time-tracking software would cost much more than $ 722 million .
Oh , wait .. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They are saving money, because any off-the-shelf time-tracking software would cost much more than $722 million.
Oh, wait ...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639984</id>
	<title>Re:Slaves</title>
	<author>WhatAmIDoingHere</author>
	<datestamp>1269709260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I worked at a job where we had to swipe our badges in/out.  Management noticed that people would just give their badges to a friend and leave early.  The friend would swipe them out on time (and they would switch back and forth).  The solution was to install a thumb print scanner.
<br> <br>
This was at a private for-profit nursing home.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I worked at a job where we had to swipe our badges in/out .
Management noticed that people would just give their badges to a friend and leave early .
The friend would swipe them out on time ( and they would switch back and forth ) .
The solution was to install a thumb print scanner .
This was at a private for-profit nursing home .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I worked at a job where we had to swipe our badges in/out.
Management noticed that people would just give their badges to a friend and leave early.
The friend would swipe them out on time (and they would switch back and forth).
The solution was to install a thumb print scanner.
This was at a private for-profit nursing home.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639226</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640596</id>
	<title>beb from Detroit</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269712620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I thought only Detroit was saddled with an incompetent, incomplete digital time management system. I feel slightly better knowing that even great cities like New York are in the same boat.</p><p>The system has been running for over a year now with many identified problems, none of which have been solved because the vendor insists on a new contract to fix them. I would have thought these problems would have been covered under the original warranty on the system but perhaps this was bought wothout a warranty.</p><p>Who's to blame. Certainly the private contractors who failed to deliver the system they promised but also the procurement people in government who may be too uninformed to know what is the best system but most often seem to be simply corrupt.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I thought only Detroit was saddled with an incompetent , incomplete digital time management system .
I feel slightly better knowing that even great cities like New York are in the same boat.The system has been running for over a year now with many identified problems , none of which have been solved because the vendor insists on a new contract to fix them .
I would have thought these problems would have been covered under the original warranty on the system but perhaps this was bought wothout a warranty.Who 's to blame .
Certainly the private contractors who failed to deliver the system they promised but also the procurement people in government who may be too uninformed to know what is the best system but most often seem to be simply corrupt .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I thought only Detroit was saddled with an incompetent, incomplete digital time management system.
I feel slightly better knowing that even great cities like New York are in the same boat.The system has been running for over a year now with many identified problems, none of which have been solved because the vendor insists on a new contract to fix them.
I would have thought these problems would have been covered under the original warranty on the system but perhaps this was bought wothout a warranty.Who's to blame.
Certainly the private contractors who failed to deliver the system they promised but also the procurement people in government who may be too uninformed to know what is the best system but most often seem to be simply corrupt.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640264</id>
	<title>Re:Cheaper if everybody steals an hour a day</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269710940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, but you're forgetting something: in America, we are so terribly concerned that some poor person somewhere may be getting something they don't deserve that we're willing to put nearly a billion dollars in the pockets of rich people to ensure that the poor people stay in line.</p><p>It's just good conservative fiscal policy.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , but you 're forgetting something : in America , we are so terribly concerned that some poor person somewhere may be getting something they do n't deserve that we 're willing to put nearly a billion dollars in the pockets of rich people to ensure that the poor people stay in line.It 's just good conservative fiscal policy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, but you're forgetting something: in America, we are so terribly concerned that some poor person somewhere may be getting something they don't deserve that we're willing to put nearly a billion dollars in the pockets of rich people to ensure that the poor people stay in line.It's just good conservative fiscal policy.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639248</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640524</id>
	<title>Re:Problem = Managers</title>
	<author>sohp</author>
	<datestamp>1269712260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>the people actually doing the grunt work on the project are likely making 10\% of the stated figures</p></div><p>Based on my experiences, the PMs and a few other administrative and lead folks are the only ones in NYC itself. The grunts are off in Hong Kong, Bangalore, Mumbai, or Kiev</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>the people actually doing the grunt work on the project are likely making 10 \ % of the stated figuresBased on my experiences , the PMs and a few other administrative and lead folks are the only ones in NYC itself .
The grunts are off in Hong Kong , Bangalore , Mumbai , or Kiev</tokentext>
<sentencetext>the people actually doing the grunt work on the project are likely making 10\% of the stated figuresBased on my experiences, the PMs and a few other administrative and lead folks are the only ones in NYC itself.
The grunts are off in Hong Kong, Bangalore, Mumbai, or Kiev
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639352</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31641314</id>
	<title>Re:Corruption</title>
	<author>linebackn</author>
	<datestamp>1269717300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>It is obvious what is happening here.</i></p><p>To me it is obvious what has happened here. Some years ago some one probably thought it would be a good idea to implement an automated timekeeping system, without doing a proper cost/benefit analysis, thinking they could just quickly drop some slightly customized system in place and never have to touch it again.</p><p>Government agencies usually have many complicated and unusual timekeeping rules that sometimes even change. Often this is the result of various laws they have to deal with that private companies would not have to deal with. They almost certainly underestimated the amount of customization needed for a time keeping program like this, especially if this is based on an existing system that was never designed to deal with their kinds of rules.</p><p>Don't blame on corruption what can be adequately explained by stupidity.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is obvious what is happening here.To me it is obvious what has happened here .
Some years ago some one probably thought it would be a good idea to implement an automated timekeeping system , without doing a proper cost/benefit analysis , thinking they could just quickly drop some slightly customized system in place and never have to touch it again.Government agencies usually have many complicated and unusual timekeeping rules that sometimes even change .
Often this is the result of various laws they have to deal with that private companies would not have to deal with .
They almost certainly underestimated the amount of customization needed for a time keeping program like this , especially if this is based on an existing system that was never designed to deal with their kinds of rules.Do n't blame on corruption what can be adequately explained by stupidity .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is obvious what is happening here.To me it is obvious what has happened here.
Some years ago some one probably thought it would be a good idea to implement an automated timekeeping system, without doing a proper cost/benefit analysis, thinking they could just quickly drop some slightly customized system in place and never have to touch it again.Government agencies usually have many complicated and unusual timekeeping rules that sometimes even change.
Often this is the result of various laws they have to deal with that private companies would not have to deal with.
They almost certainly underestimated the amount of customization needed for a time keeping program like this, especially if this is based on an existing system that was never designed to deal with their kinds of rules.Don't blame on corruption what can be adequately explained by stupidity.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639800</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640002</id>
	<title>Troll</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269709380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you had read TFA, you'd know it was a private company screwing the government. Maybe if corporations were banned from using their con$iderable influence on government, things would be better.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you had read TFA , you 'd know it was a private company screwing the government .
Maybe if corporations were banned from using their con $ iderable influence on government , things would be better .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you had read TFA, you'd know it was a private company screwing the government.
Maybe if corporations were banned from using their con$iderable influence on government, things would be better.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639768</id>
	<title>This is a *private* sector project</title>
	<author>ph1ll</author>
	<datestamp>1269707700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
I read TFA and saw that a <b>private</b> company called "Science Applications International Corp." was running the project.
</p><p>
So, why is that people are blaming the government when it is the private sector that is wasting all this money? Sure, it's tax-payers' money but aren't we constantly told by various private sector financed think tanks that this public work is best outsourced to the private sector? Well, this is what happens, folks.
</p><p>
And if you think the private sector is any better, you're living in a fantasy land. It's just that they are less liable to scrutiny. When corruption happens in private organizations, it gets brushed under the carpet. Why? Because it looks not only bad for the culprit (obviously) but <i>also the guy who employed him</i> - no matter that he had nothing to do with the scam. Everybody stay silent and nobody gets hurt, right?
</p><p>
I've seen this soooo many times in the private sector - outsourced procurement agencies that charge $1000 for a $500 desktop, outsourced projects that were awarded to a consultancy that was (by shocking coincidence) run by the brother of the guy on the committee overseeing the outsourcing etc etc. In all these cases, it's hard to prove that actual fraud took place (eg, "well, we really did think this was the best offer when you consider all the factors").
</p><p>
And nobody in a private organization is ever, <b>ever</b> going to be prosecuted for these scams. Why would they? Who wants to pursue such cases? The shareholders don't care about such small corruption even if they got to hear of it. The media are not interested (a private company can spend its money as it sees fit). And an employee is only going to ruin his career.
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I read TFA and saw that a private company called " Science Applications International Corp. " was running the project .
So , why is that people are blaming the government when it is the private sector that is wasting all this money ?
Sure , it 's tax-payers ' money but are n't we constantly told by various private sector financed think tanks that this public work is best outsourced to the private sector ?
Well , this is what happens , folks .
And if you think the private sector is any better , you 're living in a fantasy land .
It 's just that they are less liable to scrutiny .
When corruption happens in private organizations , it gets brushed under the carpet .
Why ? Because it looks not only bad for the culprit ( obviously ) but also the guy who employed him - no matter that he had nothing to do with the scam .
Everybody stay silent and nobody gets hurt , right ?
I 've seen this soooo many times in the private sector - outsourced procurement agencies that charge $ 1000 for a $ 500 desktop , outsourced projects that were awarded to a consultancy that was ( by shocking coincidence ) run by the brother of the guy on the committee overseeing the outsourcing etc etc .
In all these cases , it 's hard to prove that actual fraud took place ( eg , " well , we really did think this was the best offer when you consider all the factors " ) .
And nobody in a private organization is ever , ever going to be prosecuted for these scams .
Why would they ?
Who wants to pursue such cases ?
The shareholders do n't care about such small corruption even if they got to hear of it .
The media are not interested ( a private company can spend its money as it sees fit ) .
And an employee is only going to ruin his career .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
I read TFA and saw that a private company called "Science Applications International Corp." was running the project.
So, why is that people are blaming the government when it is the private sector that is wasting all this money?
Sure, it's tax-payers' money but aren't we constantly told by various private sector financed think tanks that this public work is best outsourced to the private sector?
Well, this is what happens, folks.
And if you think the private sector is any better, you're living in a fantasy land.
It's just that they are less liable to scrutiny.
When corruption happens in private organizations, it gets brushed under the carpet.
Why? Because it looks not only bad for the culprit (obviously) but also the guy who employed him - no matter that he had nothing to do with the scam.
Everybody stay silent and nobody gets hurt, right?
I've seen this soooo many times in the private sector - outsourced procurement agencies that charge $1000 for a $500 desktop, outsourced projects that were awarded to a consultancy that was (by shocking coincidence) run by the brother of the guy on the committee overseeing the outsourcing etc etc.
In all these cases, it's hard to prove that actual fraud took place (eg, "well, we really did think this was the best offer when you consider all the factors").
And nobody in a private organization is ever, ever going to be prosecuted for these scams.
Why would they?
Who wants to pursue such cases?
The shareholders don't care about such small corruption even if they got to hear of it.
The media are not interested (a private company can spend its money as it sees fit).
And an employee is only going to ruin his career.
</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639388</id>
	<title>How hard can it be</title>
	<author>wisnoskij</author>
	<datestamp>1269704400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How hard can it be to program a computerized timekeeping and payroll system.</p><p>230 highly paid people and it has been underdevelopment for over a decade?<br>1 person should of been able to get it done in a decade.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How hard can it be to program a computerized timekeeping and payroll system.230 highly paid people and it has been underdevelopment for over a decade ? 1 person should of been able to get it done in a decade .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How hard can it be to program a computerized timekeeping and payroll system.230 highly paid people and it has been underdevelopment for over a decade?1 person should of been able to get it done in a decade.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31659354</id>
	<title>Re:Corruption</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269886860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, seeing as the USA attacked the (let me put this in caps for emphasis) WRONG FUCKING COUNTRY and no one was held accountable, I would say, no.  It is not you.  Americans are oblivious to government corruption.  For fuck's sake, Oliver North is a hero in this country.  In a sane country, he would be in a prison.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , seeing as the USA attacked the ( let me put this in caps for emphasis ) WRONG FUCKING COUNTRY and no one was held accountable , I would say , no .
It is not you .
Americans are oblivious to government corruption .
For fuck 's sake , Oliver North is a hero in this country .
In a sane country , he would be in a prison .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, seeing as the USA attacked the (let me put this in caps for emphasis) WRONG FUCKING COUNTRY and no one was held accountable, I would say, no.
It is not you.
Americans are oblivious to government corruption.
For fuck's sake, Oliver North is a hero in this country.
In a sane country, he would be in a prison.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639800</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639530</id>
	<title>Re:Government Project Cost Overruns?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269705660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Exactly. Government always wastes money. They should have hired a private contractor instead. It would have turned out much better that way.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Exactly .
Government always wastes money .
They should have hired a private contractor instead .
It would have turned out much better that way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Exactly.
Government always wastes money.
They should have hired a private contractor instead.
It would have turned out much better that way.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31643792</id>
	<title>Re:Irony</title>
	<author>nine-times</author>
	<datestamp>1269696120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Unemployment benefits are nominal pretty much everywhere.  Maybe they're exceptionally generous in California, but I find it just as likely that your teacher friend was making so little money that even nominal unemployment benefits were 2/3 of her salary.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>But I personally appreciate the irony of someone who is working for the government continuing to collect a non-trivial portion of their salary from the same revenue stream.</p></div><p>What's ironic about that?  Do you also find it ironic that government workers can get social security when they retire or become disabled?  If you just mean that it's kind of a funny thing to think about, I might agree.  Like it's kind of funny that people who work for the government pay income tax.  It makes sense once you understand what's going on, but it seems strange at first blush.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>In the case I mentioned, California is saving 1/3 of a teacher's salary by eliminating one whole teacher.</p></div><p>Well for one thing, the money comes from different places.  IIRC employers pay into a special unemployment insurance fund in their payroll tax.  Second, while they were only saving 1/3 the teacher's salary for some time they eventually saved 3/3 of your friend's salary as soon as she gets a job.  If she doesn't get a job, the unemployment eventually runs out.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>But all I have observed to this point is that, whatever the reason, governments waste a lot of money, and anyone who is surprised by the article hasn't been paying attention.</p></div><p>Private companies also waste lots of money too, as do private individuals.  In fact, the people wasting the money in this case are private consultants that the government is paying to do a job.  So what exactly is your point here?
</p><p>Let me put it another way: The city is going to need a computerized payroll system. (or what's your alternative there, not paying city employees?  Not having a government at all?)  What this article suggests, if anything, is that paying private contractors doesn't work.  Maybe the lesson to learn from all this is that they city should hire a salaried IT/MIS staff to handle this stuff instead of looking to the private sector?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Unemployment benefits are nominal pretty much everywhere .
Maybe they 're exceptionally generous in California , but I find it just as likely that your teacher friend was making so little money that even nominal unemployment benefits were 2/3 of her salary.But I personally appreciate the irony of someone who is working for the government continuing to collect a non-trivial portion of their salary from the same revenue stream.What 's ironic about that ?
Do you also find it ironic that government workers can get social security when they retire or become disabled ?
If you just mean that it 's kind of a funny thing to think about , I might agree .
Like it 's kind of funny that people who work for the government pay income tax .
It makes sense once you understand what 's going on , but it seems strange at first blush.In the case I mentioned , California is saving 1/3 of a teacher 's salary by eliminating one whole teacher.Well for one thing , the money comes from different places .
IIRC employers pay into a special unemployment insurance fund in their payroll tax .
Second , while they were only saving 1/3 the teacher 's salary for some time they eventually saved 3/3 of your friend 's salary as soon as she gets a job .
If she does n't get a job , the unemployment eventually runs out.But all I have observed to this point is that , whatever the reason , governments waste a lot of money , and anyone who is surprised by the article has n't been paying attention.Private companies also waste lots of money too , as do private individuals .
In fact , the people wasting the money in this case are private consultants that the government is paying to do a job .
So what exactly is your point here ?
Let me put it another way : The city is going to need a computerized payroll system .
( or what 's your alternative there , not paying city employees ?
Not having a government at all ?
) What this article suggests , if anything , is that paying private contractors does n't work .
Maybe the lesson to learn from all this is that they city should hire a salaried IT/MIS staff to handle this stuff instead of looking to the private sector ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unemployment benefits are nominal pretty much everywhere.
Maybe they're exceptionally generous in California, but I find it just as likely that your teacher friend was making so little money that even nominal unemployment benefits were 2/3 of her salary.But I personally appreciate the irony of someone who is working for the government continuing to collect a non-trivial portion of their salary from the same revenue stream.What's ironic about that?
Do you also find it ironic that government workers can get social security when they retire or become disabled?
If you just mean that it's kind of a funny thing to think about, I might agree.
Like it's kind of funny that people who work for the government pay income tax.
It makes sense once you understand what's going on, but it seems strange at first blush.In the case I mentioned, California is saving 1/3 of a teacher's salary by eliminating one whole teacher.Well for one thing, the money comes from different places.
IIRC employers pay into a special unemployment insurance fund in their payroll tax.
Second, while they were only saving 1/3 the teacher's salary for some time they eventually saved 3/3 of your friend's salary as soon as she gets a job.
If she doesn't get a job, the unemployment eventually runs out.But all I have observed to this point is that, whatever the reason, governments waste a lot of money, and anyone who is surprised by the article hasn't been paying attention.Private companies also waste lots of money too, as do private individuals.
In fact, the people wasting the money in this case are private consultants that the government is paying to do a job.
So what exactly is your point here?
Let me put it another way: The city is going to need a computerized payroll system.
(or what's your alternative there, not paying city employees?
Not having a government at all?
)  What this article suggests, if anything, is that paying private contractors doesn't work.
Maybe the lesson to learn from all this is that they city should hire a salaried IT/MIS staff to handle this stuff instead of looking to the private sector?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31642008</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639226</id>
	<title>Slaves</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269703380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What is the purpose of an attendance system? To make sure someone is getting to work on time and not leaving before quitting time?</p><p>Sometimes people say that government employees should have greater scrutiny due to their being paid by the taxpayers, but I'm uncomfortable turning them into slaves.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What is the purpose of an attendance system ?
To make sure someone is getting to work on time and not leaving before quitting time ? Sometimes people say that government employees should have greater scrutiny due to their being paid by the taxpayers , but I 'm uncomfortable turning them into slaves .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What is the purpose of an attendance system?
To make sure someone is getting to work on time and not leaving before quitting time?Sometimes people say that government employees should have greater scrutiny due to their being paid by the taxpayers, but I'm uncomfortable turning them into slaves.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640160</id>
	<title>Stupid way to contract:  by the hour</title>
	<author>just fiddling around</author>
	<datestamp>1269710340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you want something done by a contractor on a budget, get a fixed bid.   That will give them incentives to move Heaven an Earth to keep the margins fat and timelines short.</p><p>Of course the contract should include a series of binding quality criteria, else "fat margins" will equate to non-performing "product".</p><p>I've been on both sides of the fence, and that's the best way for both contractor and contractee to have a fruitful relationship.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you want something done by a contractor on a budget , get a fixed bid .
That will give them incentives to move Heaven an Earth to keep the margins fat and timelines short.Of course the contract should include a series of binding quality criteria , else " fat margins " will equate to non-performing " product " .I 've been on both sides of the fence , and that 's the best way for both contractor and contractee to have a fruitful relationship .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you want something done by a contractor on a budget, get a fixed bid.
That will give them incentives to move Heaven an Earth to keep the margins fat and timelines short.Of course the contract should include a series of binding quality criteria, else "fat margins" will equate to non-performing "product".I've been on both sides of the fence, and that's the best way for both contractor and contractee to have a fruitful relationship.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639856</id>
	<title>Inaccurate story</title>
	<author>BradMajors</author>
	<datestamp>1269708360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The story is inaccurate.  The City is not employing these persons and is not paying these persons a salary or any other type of compensation.</p><p>The City has hired a company to perform the work and this other company is paying these persons some type of compensation.  These persons will never see anything close to the stated "salaries".</p><p>The rates being charged are not out of line with rates being charged elsewhere.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The story is inaccurate .
The City is not employing these persons and is not paying these persons a salary or any other type of compensation.The City has hired a company to perform the work and this other company is paying these persons some type of compensation .
These persons will never see anything close to the stated " salaries " .The rates being charged are not out of line with rates being charged elsewhere .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The story is inaccurate.
The City is not employing these persons and is not paying these persons a salary or any other type of compensation.The City has hired a company to perform the work and this other company is paying these persons some type of compensation.
These persons will never see anything close to the stated "salaries".The rates being charged are not out of line with rates being charged elsewhere.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640036</id>
	<title>Re:Government Project Cost Overruns?</title>
	<author>nine-times</author>
	<datestamp>1269709620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>She was laid off and promptly given 2/3rds her previous salary in unemployment benefits. Pretty good for keeping the same employer and just not working anymore. If I tried that it would result in a 100\% pay cut.</p></div><p>Yeah, and there's not chance that you'd be able to get unemployment benefits, right?  Or is it just that you object to the idea of unemployment benefits.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>She was laid off and promptly given 2/3rds her previous salary in unemployment benefits .
Pretty good for keeping the same employer and just not working anymore .
If I tried that it would result in a 100 \ % pay cut.Yeah , and there 's not chance that you 'd be able to get unemployment benefits , right ?
Or is it just that you object to the idea of unemployment benefits .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>She was laid off and promptly given 2/3rds her previous salary in unemployment benefits.
Pretty good for keeping the same employer and just not working anymore.
If I tried that it would result in a 100\% pay cut.Yeah, and there's not chance that you'd be able to get unemployment benefits, right?
Or is it just that you object to the idea of unemployment benefits.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31641230</id>
	<title>Re:Can You Say ...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269716700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm not sure the problem is lack of oversight.  It may well be an abundance of oversight causing delays.  Time clocks are very important to the livelihood of NYC employees who are members of some of the most powerful and well funded unions in the US.  Would it surprise anyone if the delays and overruns were the result of union demands that the system accommodate their every demand?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not sure the problem is lack of oversight .
It may well be an abundance of oversight causing delays .
Time clocks are very important to the livelihood of NYC employees who are members of some of the most powerful and well funded unions in the US .
Would it surprise anyone if the delays and overruns were the result of union demands that the system accommodate their every demand ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not sure the problem is lack of oversight.
It may well be an abundance of oversight causing delays.
Time clocks are very important to the livelihood of NYC employees who are members of some of the most powerful and well funded unions in the US.
Would it surprise anyone if the delays and overruns were the result of union demands that the system accommodate their every demand?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639232</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639932</id>
	<title>SOP in NYC</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269708900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Since it's effectively little more than a fancy punch clock, I'd think that it'd not be THAT difficult to do. I'm amazed that they're pouring that much cash into a bottomless pit on this- and then doing more of it instead of pulling the plug and starting over.</p></div><p>It's NYC, the City of Graft. This is a city where "working the system" is SOP, where "in the old days" there where many Pisanos that had a "city job" they never went to. It still goes on today. This project is simply following the NYC way of doing things.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Since it 's effectively little more than a fancy punch clock , I 'd think that it 'd not be THAT difficult to do .
I 'm amazed that they 're pouring that much cash into a bottomless pit on this- and then doing more of it instead of pulling the plug and starting over.It 's NYC , the City of Graft .
This is a city where " working the system " is SOP , where " in the old days " there where many Pisanos that had a " city job " they never went to .
It still goes on today .
This project is simply following the NYC way of doing things .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Since it's effectively little more than a fancy punch clock, I'd think that it'd not be THAT difficult to do.
I'm amazed that they're pouring that much cash into a bottomless pit on this- and then doing more of it instead of pulling the plug and starting over.It's NYC, the City of Graft.
This is a city where "working the system" is SOP, where "in the old days" there where many Pisanos that had a "city job" they never went to.
It still goes on today.
This project is simply following the NYC way of doing things.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639544</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639236</id>
	<title>Hm</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269703440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Is New York City going to follow Washington's lead and tax itself 10\% for this custom software?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:D</p><p>Wait. How would that work?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is New York City going to follow Washington 's lead and tax itself 10 \ % for this custom software ?
: DWait. How would that work ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is New York City going to follow Washington's lead and tax itself 10\% for this custom software?
:DWait. How would that work?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640956</id>
	<title>Re:How hard can it be</title>
	<author>ggpauly</author>
	<datestamp>1269715140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree, qualifying one person = one lead developer.   And ten years is too long.   I know because I've developed an open source time sheet (http://ringdevelopment.com/timesheetdemo/   login guest/guest)</p><p>What really fubars projects is when the agents of the clients (that is, the employees who feel threatened) actively sabotage things.  in my view, this is wholly the responsibility of the client.  Failure to take care of this 200\%  (so that the saboteurs become or are replaced by cooperators) will result in failure, and the consultant is the innocent victim.  However, 230 (or whatever) consultants means that SAIC and the consultants are milking the situation.</p><p>My guess is that New York City is doing nothing about the problem because they are the problem.  Same was probably true for SAIC and FBI.   In NYC's case at least, this was not a software problem to begin with.  It was a management problem.</p><p>If these organizations ever get their sugar together (unlikely)  they should find one or two smart people to put a system together for them - with the enthusiastic support and cooperation of everyone concerned in the client organization.</p><p>The reason these organizations fail is that they are concerned about self-perpetuation.  This happens to all large organizations over time, and to the individuals within them concerned with perpetuating their roles within the organization.  It's a force of human nature.  Organizations lose sight of their purpose.  Governments turn against the people they were formed to serve.  Charities, once heart-felt, become marketing machines.  Religions are inherited by control freaks.  Big businesses seek rents and turn against their customers.</p><p>Be small.  When the job's done find another.   One developer can do it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree , qualifying one person = one lead developer .
And ten years is too long .
I know because I 've developed an open source time sheet ( http : //ringdevelopment.com/timesheetdemo/ login guest/guest ) What really fubars projects is when the agents of the clients ( that is , the employees who feel threatened ) actively sabotage things .
in my view , this is wholly the responsibility of the client .
Failure to take care of this 200 \ % ( so that the saboteurs become or are replaced by cooperators ) will result in failure , and the consultant is the innocent victim .
However , 230 ( or whatever ) consultants means that SAIC and the consultants are milking the situation.My guess is that New York City is doing nothing about the problem because they are the problem .
Same was probably true for SAIC and FBI .
In NYC 's case at least , this was not a software problem to begin with .
It was a management problem.If these organizations ever get their sugar together ( unlikely ) they should find one or two smart people to put a system together for them - with the enthusiastic support and cooperation of everyone concerned in the client organization.The reason these organizations fail is that they are concerned about self-perpetuation .
This happens to all large organizations over time , and to the individuals within them concerned with perpetuating their roles within the organization .
It 's a force of human nature .
Organizations lose sight of their purpose .
Governments turn against the people they were formed to serve .
Charities , once heart-felt , become marketing machines .
Religions are inherited by control freaks .
Big businesses seek rents and turn against their customers.Be small .
When the job 's done find another .
One developer can do it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree, qualifying one person = one lead developer.
And ten years is too long.
I know because I've developed an open source time sheet (http://ringdevelopment.com/timesheetdemo/   login guest/guest)What really fubars projects is when the agents of the clients (that is, the employees who feel threatened) actively sabotage things.
in my view, this is wholly the responsibility of the client.
Failure to take care of this 200\%  (so that the saboteurs become or are replaced by cooperators) will result in failure, and the consultant is the innocent victim.
However, 230 (or whatever) consultants means that SAIC and the consultants are milking the situation.My guess is that New York City is doing nothing about the problem because they are the problem.
Same was probably true for SAIC and FBI.
In NYC's case at least, this was not a software problem to begin with.
It was a management problem.If these organizations ever get their sugar together (unlikely)  they should find one or two smart people to put a system together for them - with the enthusiastic support and cooperation of everyone concerned in the client organization.The reason these organizations fail is that they are concerned about self-perpetuation.
This happens to all large organizations over time, and to the individuals within them concerned with perpetuating their roles within the organization.
It's a force of human nature.
Organizations lose sight of their purpose.
Governments turn against the people they were formed to serve.
Charities, once heart-felt, become marketing machines.
Religions are inherited by control freaks.
Big businesses seek rents and turn against their customers.Be small.
When the job's done find another.
One developer can do it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639388</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31709636</id>
	<title>Re:Government Project Cost Overruns?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1270200360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I have a friend who was a teacher in California for a year. She was laid off and promptly given 2/3rds her previous salary in unemployment benefits. Pretty good for keeping the same employer and just not working anymore. If I tried that it would result in a 100\% pay cut.</p> </div><p>I'm confused, are you talking about <i>temporary</i> unemployment benefits that is available to everyone for a limited time, so that you can pay your mortgage when you're laid off without notice?</p><p>Or is your friend getting a permanent salary at 2/3 of her old salary?</p><p>There's a big big difference in the two.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have a friend who was a teacher in California for a year .
She was laid off and promptly given 2/3rds her previous salary in unemployment benefits .
Pretty good for keeping the same employer and just not working anymore .
If I tried that it would result in a 100 \ % pay cut .
I 'm confused , are you talking about temporary unemployment benefits that is available to everyone for a limited time , so that you can pay your mortgage when you 're laid off without notice ? Or is your friend getting a permanent salary at 2/3 of her old salary ? There 's a big big difference in the two .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have a friend who was a teacher in California for a year.
She was laid off and promptly given 2/3rds her previous salary in unemployment benefits.
Pretty good for keeping the same employer and just not working anymore.
If I tried that it would result in a 100\% pay cut.
I'm confused, are you talking about temporary unemployment benefits that is available to everyone for a limited time, so that you can pay your mortgage when you're laid off without notice?Or is your friend getting a permanent salary at 2/3 of her old salary?There's a big big difference in the two.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639336</id>
	<title>Cringely says:</title>
	<author>methano</author>
	<datestamp>1269704040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I didn't RTFA, but according to Bob Cringely, this is basically IBM's current business model.  Looks like it may be sustainable.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I did n't RTFA , but according to Bob Cringely , this is basically IBM 's current business model .
Looks like it may be sustainable .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I didn't RTFA, but according to Bob Cringely, this is basically IBM's current business model.
Looks like it may be sustainable.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31641704</id>
	<title>Re:Corruption</title>
	<author>TheRaven64</author>
	<datestamp>1269720300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Not quite any other country.  If this had been done in the UK, then the contractors would have all worked for EDS, but aside from that the situation would have been the same.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Not quite any other country .
If this had been done in the UK , then the contractors would have all worked for EDS , but aside from that the situation would have been the same .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not quite any other country.
If this had been done in the UK, then the contractors would have all worked for EDS, but aside from that the situation would have been the same.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639800</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639480</id>
	<title>Re:Cool..</title>
	<author>DoofusOfDeath</author>
	<datestamp>1269705300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Where do i sign up?</p></div></blockquote><p>I'm guessing New York.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Where do i sign up ? I 'm guessing New York .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Where do i sign up?I'm guessing New York.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639270</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31642282</id>
	<title>Re:How hard can it be</title>
	<author>Bigjeff5</author>
	<datestamp>1269681660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>How hard can it be to program a computerized timekeeping and payroll system.</p></div><p>Answer: difficult, but definitely doable in a reasonable time frame.</p><p>However, you've obviously never worked on a big bureaucracy-driven project before, because you've asked the wrong question.</p><p>Here's the correct question:</p><p>How hard is it to program a computerized timekeeping and payroll system when the fundamental requirements change on a monthly basis, individual design changes are made weekly, all because there are fifteen project managers who believe they own the project, since the primary project manager who actually does own the project spends all of his time in asinine meetings with his bosses and doesn't know what the hell is going on?</p><p>Answer: virtually impossible.</p><p>All that situation needs are a bunch of blind fools in upper management to keep approving the extensions and cost overruns and you have the NYC CityTime project.</p><p>It happens all the time in any sufficiently large bureaucracy, and the NYC government is definitely a sufficiently large bureaucracy.  Note that this is not a private/public problem, it's a bureaucracy problem.  The exact same thing happens to projects in large corporations (I work in a top 100 corporation and see this kind of thing happen all the time, though they are usually much quicker to pull the plug on a project than NYC is in this case).</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>How hard can it be to program a computerized timekeeping and payroll system.Answer : difficult , but definitely doable in a reasonable time frame.However , you 've obviously never worked on a big bureaucracy-driven project before , because you 've asked the wrong question.Here 's the correct question : How hard is it to program a computerized timekeeping and payroll system when the fundamental requirements change on a monthly basis , individual design changes are made weekly , all because there are fifteen project managers who believe they own the project , since the primary project manager who actually does own the project spends all of his time in asinine meetings with his bosses and does n't know what the hell is going on ? Answer : virtually impossible.All that situation needs are a bunch of blind fools in upper management to keep approving the extensions and cost overruns and you have the NYC CityTime project.It happens all the time in any sufficiently large bureaucracy , and the NYC government is definitely a sufficiently large bureaucracy .
Note that this is not a private/public problem , it 's a bureaucracy problem .
The exact same thing happens to projects in large corporations ( I work in a top 100 corporation and see this kind of thing happen all the time , though they are usually much quicker to pull the plug on a project than NYC is in this case ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How hard can it be to program a computerized timekeeping and payroll system.Answer: difficult, but definitely doable in a reasonable time frame.However, you've obviously never worked on a big bureaucracy-driven project before, because you've asked the wrong question.Here's the correct question:How hard is it to program a computerized timekeeping and payroll system when the fundamental requirements change on a monthly basis, individual design changes are made weekly, all because there are fifteen project managers who believe they own the project, since the primary project manager who actually does own the project spends all of his time in asinine meetings with his bosses and doesn't know what the hell is going on?Answer: virtually impossible.All that situation needs are a bunch of blind fools in upper management to keep approving the extensions and cost overruns and you have the NYC CityTime project.It happens all the time in any sufficiently large bureaucracy, and the NYC government is definitely a sufficiently large bureaucracy.
Note that this is not a private/public problem, it's a bureaucracy problem.
The exact same thing happens to projects in large corporations (I work in a top 100 corporation and see this kind of thing happen all the time, though they are usually much quicker to pull the plug on a project than NYC is in this case).
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639388</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639412</id>
	<title>Two for the half the price of one</title>
	<author>bradbury</author>
	<datestamp>1269704640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hell, I've got 15+ years of experience with computers and some big name corporations (e.g. Time Inc &amp; Oracle) in my resume.  I'd be willing to do the job of two of the consultants for half as much.</p><p>The real question here is *who* is responsible for the project and is employing these people (who clearly seem to have no interest in getting the job done)?  For example, if two or three individuals can rewrite a relatively robust DBMS (Oracle) in less than 2 years (circa 1983-84, the Oracle Version 3--&gt;4 rewrite) having this many people not getting the job done in a decade screams to me of incompetence.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hell , I 've got 15 + years of experience with computers and some big name corporations ( e.g .
Time Inc &amp; Oracle ) in my resume .
I 'd be willing to do the job of two of the consultants for half as much.The real question here is * who * is responsible for the project and is employing these people ( who clearly seem to have no interest in getting the job done ) ?
For example , if two or three individuals can rewrite a relatively robust DBMS ( Oracle ) in less than 2 years ( circa 1983-84 , the Oracle Version 3-- &gt; 4 rewrite ) having this many people not getting the job done in a decade screams to me of incompetence .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hell, I've got 15+ years of experience with computers and some big name corporations (e.g.
Time Inc &amp; Oracle) in my resume.
I'd be willing to do the job of two of the consultants for half as much.The real question here is *who* is responsible for the project and is employing these people (who clearly seem to have no interest in getting the job done)?
For example, if two or three individuals can rewrite a relatively robust DBMS (Oracle) in less than 2 years (circa 1983-84, the Oracle Version 3--&gt;4 rewrite) having this many people not getting the job done in a decade screams to me of incompetence.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640816</id>
	<title>as a longtime nyc resident and programmer</title>
	<author>circletimessquare</author>
	<datestamp>1269714060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>all i can say is...</p><p>damn, why didn't i get this job!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>all i can say is...damn , why did n't i get this job !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>all i can say is...damn, why didn't i get this job!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31641690</id>
	<title>Re:Yeah, because private industry pays sensible sa</title>
	<author>Bigjeff5</author>
	<datestamp>1269720300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>You are trolling but you are not aware of it because you got a blind spot. Remember those banks that collapsed and took the whole economy with them? Private industry and filled with excessive salaries and people who get golden parachutes when they are "let go".</p> </div><p>Had the free market been allowed to work as it should, none of those golden parachutes would have been paid out.</p><p>Instead we propped them up and allowed them - no <i>encouraged</i> them to rob us blind.  Dumbasses.</p><p>Yeah, the economy would have collapsed, and it would have sucked.  But you know what? The fundamentals of economics don't change because someone fucked up.  Where one company fails by making foolish decisions, another succeeds by making great decisions.  What you end up with when the economy collapses is a country full of companies that made the correct decisions, because those are the only ones that would survive.  Even in the midst of the banking crisis there were a number of banks who stood out as being rock solid for not making the foolish decisions other banks made.  How did we reward them for doing the right thing?  Why, we gave their failing competition free money to make sure they could still compete in spite of their foolish decisions!  What fools are we?</p><p>Things would have sucked for a year or two, and things would definitely be very different today, but it wouldn't have taken very long for us to be better off than we were before.  So instead of things sucking a lot for a short while, things are going to suck a little bit less for a very long time.  Great choice.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You are trolling but you are not aware of it because you got a blind spot .
Remember those banks that collapsed and took the whole economy with them ?
Private industry and filled with excessive salaries and people who get golden parachutes when they are " let go " .
Had the free market been allowed to work as it should , none of those golden parachutes would have been paid out.Instead we propped them up and allowed them - no encouraged them to rob us blind .
Dumbasses.Yeah , the economy would have collapsed , and it would have sucked .
But you know what ?
The fundamentals of economics do n't change because someone fucked up .
Where one company fails by making foolish decisions , another succeeds by making great decisions .
What you end up with when the economy collapses is a country full of companies that made the correct decisions , because those are the only ones that would survive .
Even in the midst of the banking crisis there were a number of banks who stood out as being rock solid for not making the foolish decisions other banks made .
How did we reward them for doing the right thing ?
Why , we gave their failing competition free money to make sure they could still compete in spite of their foolish decisions !
What fools are we ? Things would have sucked for a year or two , and things would definitely be very different today , but it would n't have taken very long for us to be better off than we were before .
So instead of things sucking a lot for a short while , things are going to suck a little bit less for a very long time .
Great choice .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are trolling but you are not aware of it because you got a blind spot.
Remember those banks that collapsed and took the whole economy with them?
Private industry and filled with excessive salaries and people who get golden parachutes when they are "let go".
Had the free market been allowed to work as it should, none of those golden parachutes would have been paid out.Instead we propped them up and allowed them - no encouraged them to rob us blind.
Dumbasses.Yeah, the economy would have collapsed, and it would have sucked.
But you know what?
The fundamentals of economics don't change because someone fucked up.
Where one company fails by making foolish decisions, another succeeds by making great decisions.
What you end up with when the economy collapses is a country full of companies that made the correct decisions, because those are the only ones that would survive.
Even in the midst of the banking crisis there were a number of banks who stood out as being rock solid for not making the foolish decisions other banks made.
How did we reward them for doing the right thing?
Why, we gave their failing competition free money to make sure they could still compete in spite of their foolish decisions!
What fools are we?Things would have sucked for a year or two, and things would definitely be very different today, but it wouldn't have taken very long for us to be better off than we were before.
So instead of things sucking a lot for a short while, things are going to suck a little bit less for a very long time.
Great choice.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639666</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639898</id>
	<title>Chasing Changing Specs?</title>
	<author>grumling</author>
	<datestamp>1269708540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It sounds like someone might be constantly changing the specifications. I'm sure like all things political in New York (see rebilding WTC), the contract likely requires EVERYONE who touches the payroll to have a say in how it works. That, along with different trade unions and their contracts' idiosyncrasies, work/shift/OT rules, and I could see how it can become a mess.</p><p>I'm paid hourly, and my company uses SAP for HR management. The idea is that all I should have to do is put my hours and on-call time in and the system should be able to figure out the rest. As it turns out, there's a drop down that has about 30 different line items to pick from. Each one will have an influence in my paycheck. Choose the wrong one and it can be a big problem. Then there's at least 2 levels of approval before my time is submitted to get a check cut. Every time I enter time, it has to be broken out by line item. In my case, it is usually 7:00-12:00, 13:00-16:00 since I have to indicate the lunch hour, except when I don't get a lunch. So I have at least 2 lines per day, but there's also on call, call-out, company holiday (which, if I'm on call, has to be broken out in 4 hours because for some strange reason just putting in 8 hours of holiday pay makes the system reject the on call pay). If I'm on vacation is it for medical reasons? Are those medical reasons eligible for FMLA rules? Have I used up my FLMA time?</p><p>We live with the bizarre nature of the system because someone, somewhere decided it was the best way to go, and if we want to get paid we'd better do what it says. At least once a month I enter something the wrong way and it gets rejected (usually when I come in at 23:00 doing night work... the system doesn't like crossing midnight for some reason). If you have a situation where everyone involved has a say in the matter, there's no way people would put up with this stuff. And according to the article, they wanted to use biometric systems to make it work. It sounds like someone wanted to be able to have a fingerprint scanner at the front door and employees would get scanned when they came in, scan when they leave and the system can figure out the rest. But there's a problem with that model as pointed out above. Is my scan a call-out when I'm on call or a call-out when I'm not? Straight overtime or call out time? What if I get called in early but continue working (when does call-out pay end and normal day begin)?  That may affect my paycheck, depending on the work rules, so it darn well better get it right or there's going to be hell to pay.</p><p>And then there's the "does it have to have a blue background" problem, and real or perceived UI issues, and people who generally hate change.</p><p>Or maybe the contractor is just incompetent.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It sounds like someone might be constantly changing the specifications .
I 'm sure like all things political in New York ( see rebilding WTC ) , the contract likely requires EVERYONE who touches the payroll to have a say in how it works .
That , along with different trade unions and their contracts ' idiosyncrasies , work/shift/OT rules , and I could see how it can become a mess.I 'm paid hourly , and my company uses SAP for HR management .
The idea is that all I should have to do is put my hours and on-call time in and the system should be able to figure out the rest .
As it turns out , there 's a drop down that has about 30 different line items to pick from .
Each one will have an influence in my paycheck .
Choose the wrong one and it can be a big problem .
Then there 's at least 2 levels of approval before my time is submitted to get a check cut .
Every time I enter time , it has to be broken out by line item .
In my case , it is usually 7 : 00-12 : 00 , 13 : 00-16 : 00 since I have to indicate the lunch hour , except when I do n't get a lunch .
So I have at least 2 lines per day , but there 's also on call , call-out , company holiday ( which , if I 'm on call , has to be broken out in 4 hours because for some strange reason just putting in 8 hours of holiday pay makes the system reject the on call pay ) .
If I 'm on vacation is it for medical reasons ?
Are those medical reasons eligible for FMLA rules ?
Have I used up my FLMA time ? We live with the bizarre nature of the system because someone , somewhere decided it was the best way to go , and if we want to get paid we 'd better do what it says .
At least once a month I enter something the wrong way and it gets rejected ( usually when I come in at 23 : 00 doing night work... the system does n't like crossing midnight for some reason ) .
If you have a situation where everyone involved has a say in the matter , there 's no way people would put up with this stuff .
And according to the article , they wanted to use biometric systems to make it work .
It sounds like someone wanted to be able to have a fingerprint scanner at the front door and employees would get scanned when they came in , scan when they leave and the system can figure out the rest .
But there 's a problem with that model as pointed out above .
Is my scan a call-out when I 'm on call or a call-out when I 'm not ?
Straight overtime or call out time ?
What if I get called in early but continue working ( when does call-out pay end and normal day begin ) ?
That may affect my paycheck , depending on the work rules , so it darn well better get it right or there 's going to be hell to pay.And then there 's the " does it have to have a blue background " problem , and real or perceived UI issues , and people who generally hate change.Or maybe the contractor is just incompetent .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It sounds like someone might be constantly changing the specifications.
I'm sure like all things political in New York (see rebilding WTC), the contract likely requires EVERYONE who touches the payroll to have a say in how it works.
That, along with different trade unions and their contracts' idiosyncrasies, work/shift/OT rules, and I could see how it can become a mess.I'm paid hourly, and my company uses SAP for HR management.
The idea is that all I should have to do is put my hours and on-call time in and the system should be able to figure out the rest.
As it turns out, there's a drop down that has about 30 different line items to pick from.
Each one will have an influence in my paycheck.
Choose the wrong one and it can be a big problem.
Then there's at least 2 levels of approval before my time is submitted to get a check cut.
Every time I enter time, it has to be broken out by line item.
In my case, it is usually 7:00-12:00, 13:00-16:00 since I have to indicate the lunch hour, except when I don't get a lunch.
So I have at least 2 lines per day, but there's also on call, call-out, company holiday (which, if I'm on call, has to be broken out in 4 hours because for some strange reason just putting in 8 hours of holiday pay makes the system reject the on call pay).
If I'm on vacation is it for medical reasons?
Are those medical reasons eligible for FMLA rules?
Have I used up my FLMA time?We live with the bizarre nature of the system because someone, somewhere decided it was the best way to go, and if we want to get paid we'd better do what it says.
At least once a month I enter something the wrong way and it gets rejected (usually when I come in at 23:00 doing night work... the system doesn't like crossing midnight for some reason).
If you have a situation where everyone involved has a say in the matter, there's no way people would put up with this stuff.
And according to the article, they wanted to use biometric systems to make it work.
It sounds like someone wanted to be able to have a fingerprint scanner at the front door and employees would get scanned when they came in, scan when they leave and the system can figure out the rest.
But there's a problem with that model as pointed out above.
Is my scan a call-out when I'm on call or a call-out when I'm not?
Straight overtime or call out time?
What if I get called in early but continue working (when does call-out pay end and normal day begin)?
That may affect my paycheck, depending on the work rules, so it darn well better get it right or there's going to be hell to pay.And then there's the "does it have to have a blue background" problem, and real or perceived UI issues, and people who generally hate change.Or maybe the contractor is just incompetent.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639736</id>
	<title>Lack of Competition...</title>
	<author>BoRegardless</author>
	<datestamp>1269707400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Makes for wasteful governments.  I am sure IBM or EDS could have quoted a system to take care of employee based on existing code and systems they had refined over decades.</p><p>That is why they should do the least and let private businesses compete for tasks.</p><p>It is sad that politicians and some in the public think government is THE answer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Makes for wasteful governments .
I am sure IBM or EDS could have quoted a system to take care of employee based on existing code and systems they had refined over decades.That is why they should do the least and let private businesses compete for tasks.It is sad that politicians and some in the public think government is THE answer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Makes for wasteful governments.
I am sure IBM or EDS could have quoted a system to take care of employee based on existing code and systems they had refined over decades.That is why they should do the least and let private businesses compete for tasks.It is sad that politicians and some in the public think government is THE answer.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31643096</id>
	<title>Re:Government Project Cost Overruns?</title>
	<author>Alaren</author>
	<datestamp>1269688500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <a href="http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1597606&amp;cid=31642258" title="slashdot.org">See my comment here</a> [slashdot.org].

</p><p>That private industry wastes money has no bearing on whether the government does, or should.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>See my comment here [ slashdot.org ] .
That private industry wastes money has no bearing on whether the government does , or should .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> See my comment here [slashdot.org].
That private industry wastes money has no bearing on whether the government does, or should.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640572</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639240</id>
	<title>Should Have Called Slashdot</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269703500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We would have done it for half that!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We would have done it for half that !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We would have done it for half that!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640732</id>
	<title>Re:Cool..</title>
	<author>CrazyDuke</author>
	<datestamp>1269713520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'll go one step further and state that if there was someone who was willing and able to finish it, they would be fired for not being a team player.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'll go one step further and state that if there was someone who was willing and able to finish it , they would be fired for not being a team player .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'll go one step further and state that if there was someone who was willing and able to finish it, they would be fired for not being a team player.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639454</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640166</id>
	<title>Re:Lack of Competition...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269710340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Because IBM and EDS also never fleece anyone and are the models of competency. Please. Having worked with all three as partners/sub-contractors, I can tell you might even see a worse outcome in that situation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Because IBM and EDS also never fleece anyone and are the models of competency .
Please. Having worked with all three as partners/sub-contractors , I can tell you might even see a worse outcome in that situation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Because IBM and EDS also never fleece anyone and are the models of competency.
Please. Having worked with all three as partners/sub-contractors, I can tell you might even see a worse outcome in that situation.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639736</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639670</id>
	<title>wow</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269706860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My company has 3 developers working at about 60k, and we have built systems that do a hell of a lot more then this software.  Wow what a freaking scan.  They are just continuing to milk the system.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My company has 3 developers working at about 60k , and we have built systems that do a hell of a lot more then this software .
Wow what a freaking scan .
They are just continuing to milk the system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My company has 3 developers working at about 60k, and we have built systems that do a hell of a lot more then this software.
Wow what a freaking scan.
They are just continuing to milk the system.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639600</id>
	<title>Re:Government Project Cost Overruns?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269706200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So let me get this straight - you think only governments waste money? What about the billions of dollars in bonuses and severance pay that are given to CEOs and other top level business executives who utterly screw their companies (and their stockholders, and their customers)? How is that not waste on a far larger scale?</p><p>No business executive deserves to earn millions of dollars. Use all that money to pay your damn front-line employees and I bet the economy will actually get a lot better very quickly.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So let me get this straight - you think only governments waste money ?
What about the billions of dollars in bonuses and severance pay that are given to CEOs and other top level business executives who utterly screw their companies ( and their stockholders , and their customers ) ?
How is that not waste on a far larger scale ? No business executive deserves to earn millions of dollars .
Use all that money to pay your damn front-line employees and I bet the economy will actually get a lot better very quickly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So let me get this straight - you think only governments waste money?
What about the billions of dollars in bonuses and severance pay that are given to CEOs and other top level business executives who utterly screw their companies (and their stockholders, and their customers)?
How is that not waste on a far larger scale?No business executive deserves to earn millions of dollars.
Use all that money to pay your damn front-line employees and I bet the economy will actually get a lot better very quickly.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639260</id>
	<title>are they hiring?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269703560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>i'm cheap. $200k would be sufficient.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>i 'm cheap .
$ 200k would be sufficient .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>i'm cheap.
$200k would be sufficient.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640672</id>
	<title>So what?</title>
	<author>Jeff-reyy</author>
	<datestamp>1269712980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>If the government had done it, it would have cost even more.  I am sure the free market will punish these consultants accordingly.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If the government had done it , it would have cost even more .
I am sure the free market will punish these consultants accordingly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the government had done it, it would have cost even more.
I am sure the free market will punish these consultants accordingly.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639928</id>
	<title>Re:Corruption</title>
	<author>ffreeloader</author>
	<datestamp>1269708840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yea, you're seeing it wrong, and seeing it right at the same time.  Many of us do hate corruption and have a problem with things like this.  However, there are also people who accepted the irresponsible and immoral "greed is good" philosophy.  Greed now so rules their lives that they see evidence of greed in society as validation of their philosophy rather than recognizing that what is going on is actually costing them money and harming their own society.</p><p>Greed has so blinded them that they become like dogs crapping in their own back yards.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yea , you 're seeing it wrong , and seeing it right at the same time .
Many of us do hate corruption and have a problem with things like this .
However , there are also people who accepted the irresponsible and immoral " greed is good " philosophy .
Greed now so rules their lives that they see evidence of greed in society as validation of their philosophy rather than recognizing that what is going on is actually costing them money and harming their own society.Greed has so blinded them that they become like dogs crapping in their own back yards .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yea, you're seeing it wrong, and seeing it right at the same time.
Many of us do hate corruption and have a problem with things like this.
However, there are also people who accepted the irresponsible and immoral "greed is good" philosophy.
Greed now so rules their lives that they see evidence of greed in society as validation of their philosophy rather than recognizing that what is going on is actually costing them money and harming their own society.Greed has so blinded them that they become like dogs crapping in their own back yards.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639800</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639610</id>
	<title>Re:Problem = Managers</title>
	<author>Svartalf</author>
	<datestamp>1269706320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Oh, it's government wasting the money.  The problem lies within the inability to pull the plug when it's clear it's not coming together.  Within that culture, there's an environment that <em> <b>encourages</b> </em> this sort of thinking you ascribe to the businesses.  Why should they do any different.  They can half-ass their way through things and maybe deliver a lurching horror, maybe deliver nothing- and still keep getting paid for it for the longest time.</p><p>In the end, the business won, the government people got to pour a bunch of money down a bottomless pit, and we, the populace and taxpayers, LOST.  There's a threshold that should be hit much earlier on, one of "this is not working, perhaps we need to re-think this or stop it," that we're just not seeing with this stuff.  That, folks, is what I see needing to change.  Once you have that, the rest kind of falls into place- the businesses quit doing this stuff, quit placing the incompetent in important management positions, etc.  Because they can't afford to any more.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Oh , it 's government wasting the money .
The problem lies within the inability to pull the plug when it 's clear it 's not coming together .
Within that culture , there 's an environment that encourages this sort of thinking you ascribe to the businesses .
Why should they do any different .
They can half-ass their way through things and maybe deliver a lurching horror , maybe deliver nothing- and still keep getting paid for it for the longest time.In the end , the business won , the government people got to pour a bunch of money down a bottomless pit , and we , the populace and taxpayers , LOST .
There 's a threshold that should be hit much earlier on , one of " this is not working , perhaps we need to re-think this or stop it , " that we 're just not seeing with this stuff .
That , folks , is what I see needing to change .
Once you have that , the rest kind of falls into place- the businesses quit doing this stuff , quit placing the incompetent in important management positions , etc .
Because they ca n't afford to any more .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Oh, it's government wasting the money.
The problem lies within the inability to pull the plug when it's clear it's not coming together.
Within that culture, there's an environment that  encourages  this sort of thinking you ascribe to the businesses.
Why should they do any different.
They can half-ass their way through things and maybe deliver a lurching horror, maybe deliver nothing- and still keep getting paid for it for the longest time.In the end, the business won, the government people got to pour a bunch of money down a bottomless pit, and we, the populace and taxpayers, LOST.
There's a threshold that should be hit much earlier on, one of "this is not working, perhaps we need to re-think this or stop it," that we're just not seeing with this stuff.
That, folks, is what I see needing to change.
Once you have that, the rest kind of falls into place- the businesses quit doing this stuff, quit placing the incompetent in important management positions, etc.
Because they can't afford to any more.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639352</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31641246</id>
	<title>Don't worry....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269716820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>the government will get health care right!!!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>the government will get health care right ! !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>the government will get health care right!!
!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31643630</id>
	<title>Re:Government Project Cost Overruns?</title>
	<author>tompaulco</author>
	<datestamp>1269694080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Perhaps in New York this is true, but in the three  states I have lived and worked in, private sector paid much more than government jobs. While government workers tended to have better benefits, the overall package was still somewhat lower.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Perhaps in New York this is true , but in the three states I have lived and worked in , private sector paid much more than government jobs .
While government workers tended to have better benefits , the overall package was still somewhat lower .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Perhaps in New York this is true, but in the three  states I have lived and worked in, private sector paid much more than government jobs.
While government workers tended to have better benefits, the overall package was still somewhat lower.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639930</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639452</id>
	<title>Re:Government Project Cost Overruns?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269704940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I have a friend who was a teacher in California for a year.</p></div><p>Teacher unions are evil. End of story.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>And yet many of the same people who will cry foul over this will be first in line telling the government it is morally obligated to provide X social program or prop up Y industry "for the good of the country."</p> </div><p>  You <b>do</b> know what party controls New York, right?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have a friend who was a teacher in California for a year.Teacher unions are evil .
End of story.And yet many of the same people who will cry foul over this will be first in line telling the government it is morally obligated to provide X social program or prop up Y industry " for the good of the country .
" You do know what party controls New York , right ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have a friend who was a teacher in California for a year.Teacher unions are evil.
End of story.And yet many of the same people who will cry foul over this will be first in line telling the government it is morally obligated to provide X social program or prop up Y industry "for the good of the country.
"   You do know what party controls New York, right?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31642182</id>
	<title>Obama, do you want to ring in?</title>
	<author>cfriedt</author>
	<datestamp>1269681000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A few months ago, wasn't he going on about an economic rescue something or other?</p><p>In my opinion (although I am Canadian, but my opinion applies equally to my homeland as well), civil budgets should be one of the primary figures available to all on data.gov. That way, careless spending could be fairly easily monitored (potentially automatically).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A few months ago , was n't he going on about an economic rescue something or other ? In my opinion ( although I am Canadian , but my opinion applies equally to my homeland as well ) , civil budgets should be one of the primary figures available to all on data.gov .
That way , careless spending could be fairly easily monitored ( potentially automatically ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A few months ago, wasn't he going on about an economic rescue something or other?In my opinion (although I am Canadian, but my opinion applies equally to my homeland as well), civil budgets should be one of the primary figures available to all on data.gov.
That way, careless spending could be fairly easily monitored (potentially automatically).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639408</id>
	<title>Important question...</title>
	<author>mr exploiter</author>
	<datestamp>1269704580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>how do I get a job in there?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>how do I get a job in there ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>how do I get a job in there?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639778</id>
	<title>Re:Problem = Managers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269707700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"If you RTFA, the people that are getting the highest salaries are "Project Managers"."</p><p>Judging from the quality of their management, they should all be fired and the money used to hire more coders and 1/10th as many managers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" If you RTFA , the people that are getting the highest salaries are " Project Managers " .
" Judging from the quality of their management , they should all be fired and the money used to hire more coders and 1/10th as many managers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"If you RTFA, the people that are getting the highest salaries are "Project Managers".
"Judging from the quality of their management, they should all be fired and the money used to hire more coders and 1/10th as many managers.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639352</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31675212</id>
	<title>Good old SAIC...</title>
	<author>MikeRT</author>
	<datestamp>1269978840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I read TFA and saw that a private company called "Science Applications International Corp." was running the project.

So, why is that people are blaming the government when it is the private sector that is wasting all this money?</p></div>
</blockquote><p>

SAIC, you might recall, was the group in charge of Virtual Case File for the FBI, one of the biggest failures in government IT in this country in over a decade. Their reputation as colossal fuckups precedes them and is at the point where it's a wonder that anyone still does business with them...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I read TFA and saw that a private company called " Science Applications International Corp. " was running the project .
So , why is that people are blaming the government when it is the private sector that is wasting all this money ?
SAIC , you might recall , was the group in charge of Virtual Case File for the FBI , one of the biggest failures in government IT in this country in over a decade .
Their reputation as colossal fuckups precedes them and is at the point where it 's a wonder that anyone still does business with them.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I read TFA and saw that a private company called "Science Applications International Corp." was running the project.
So, why is that people are blaming the government when it is the private sector that is wasting all this money?
SAIC, you might recall, was the group in charge of Virtual Case File for the FBI, one of the biggest failures in government IT in this country in over a decade.
Their reputation as colossal fuckups precedes them and is at the point where it's a wonder that anyone still does business with them...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639768</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31661214</id>
	<title>Re:Cheaper if everybody steals an hour a day</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269895260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Yes, but you're forgetting something: in America, we are so terribly concerned that some poor person somewhere may be getting something they don't deserve that we're willing to put nearly a billion dollars in the pockets of rich people to ensure that the poor people stay in line.</p><p>It's just good conservative fiscal policy.</p></div><p>I feel dumber having read that.. thanks</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , but you 're forgetting something : in America , we are so terribly concerned that some poor person somewhere may be getting something they do n't deserve that we 're willing to put nearly a billion dollars in the pockets of rich people to ensure that the poor people stay in line.It 's just good conservative fiscal policy.I feel dumber having read that.. thanks</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, but you're forgetting something: in America, we are so terribly concerned that some poor person somewhere may be getting something they don't deserve that we're willing to put nearly a billion dollars in the pockets of rich people to ensure that the poor people stay in line.It's just good conservative fiscal policy.I feel dumber having read that.. thanks
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640264</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639576</id>
	<title>Re:How hard can it be</title>
	<author>gandhi\_2</author>
	<datestamp>1269706020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Or buy one of the many solutions already available....for about the cost of 1 developer for 1 year.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Or buy one of the many solutions already available....for about the cost of 1 developer for 1 year .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or buy one of the many solutions already available....for about the cost of 1 developer for 1 year.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639388</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639704</id>
	<title>Re:Problem = Managers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269707160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Another "but business does it too" remark. There's a lot more difference than merely who business has to report to. Business isn't required by government to report these figures, but they are required by their Board of Directors to report whatever data the Board of Directors wants. Now maybe the BoD is too busy yacht racing or whatever to do their job. That is a problem of the owners of the business. Ultimately, the owners are the ones who lose out when a business gets out of control like this. That's how accountability works in the business world.</p></div></blockquote><p>Guess who the board of directors are for the government.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Another " but business does it too " remark .
There 's a lot more difference than merely who business has to report to .
Business is n't required by government to report these figures , but they are required by their Board of Directors to report whatever data the Board of Directors wants .
Now maybe the BoD is too busy yacht racing or whatever to do their job .
That is a problem of the owners of the business .
Ultimately , the owners are the ones who lose out when a business gets out of control like this .
That 's how accountability works in the business world.Guess who the board of directors are for the government .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Another "but business does it too" remark.
There's a lot more difference than merely who business has to report to.
Business isn't required by government to report these figures, but they are required by their Board of Directors to report whatever data the Board of Directors wants.
Now maybe the BoD is too busy yacht racing or whatever to do their job.
That is a problem of the owners of the business.
Ultimately, the owners are the ones who lose out when a business gets out of control like this.
That's how accountability works in the business world.Guess who the board of directors are for the government.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639502</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640294</id>
	<title>SAIC</title>
	<author>kevin\_conaway</author>
	<datestamp>1269711060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I believe its worth noting that SAIC was behind the disaster that was the FBI's <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual\_Case\_File" title="wikipedia.org">Virtual Case File</a> [wikipedia.org] project.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I believe its worth noting that SAIC was behind the disaster that was the FBI 's Virtual Case File [ wikipedia.org ] project .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I believe its worth noting that SAIC was behind the disaster that was the FBI's Virtual Case File [wikipedia.org] project.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639642</id>
	<title>Makes sense...</title>
	<author>VTEX</author>
	<datestamp>1269706680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Now I understand why with almost 8 million people in the city, with some of the highest taxes in the country, the reason NYC constantly has no money and has to cut critical services all the time.
<br> <br>
Seriously, NYC has some major problems when it comes to infrastructure costs and planning. Just take a look at the MTA countdown clocks and the hundreds of millions they pour into it with absolutely no results, but they can't keep critical bus and subway lines.  The WTC is still nothing but a giant hole.  The Fulton Street Transit Center is a disaster.  Hell, the Second Avenue Subway line dates back to 1929!
<br> <br>
*sigh*</htmltext>
<tokenext>Now I understand why with almost 8 million people in the city , with some of the highest taxes in the country , the reason NYC constantly has no money and has to cut critical services all the time .
Seriously , NYC has some major problems when it comes to infrastructure costs and planning .
Just take a look at the MTA countdown clocks and the hundreds of millions they pour into it with absolutely no results , but they ca n't keep critical bus and subway lines .
The WTC is still nothing but a giant hole .
The Fulton Street Transit Center is a disaster .
Hell , the Second Avenue Subway line dates back to 1929 !
* sigh *</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Now I understand why with almost 8 million people in the city, with some of the highest taxes in the country, the reason NYC constantly has no money and has to cut critical services all the time.
Seriously, NYC has some major problems when it comes to infrastructure costs and planning.
Just take a look at the MTA countdown clocks and the hundreds of millions they pour into it with absolutely no results, but they can't keep critical bus and subway lines.
The WTC is still nothing but a giant hole.
The Fulton Street Transit Center is a disaster.
Hell, the Second Avenue Subway line dates back to 1929!
*sigh*</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31641512</id>
	<title>Re:We need more of these articles</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269718980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The 'smaller government' advocates are the ones making money for the 'special interests'. Government has stuff that *has* to be done. If you don't have government employees to do the work then you have to hire contractors. Contractors as individuals are interested in good work, Contractors as organizations are interested in screwing the government for as much as possible. The problem is that in DoD at least the 'peace benefit' meant cutting into all branches of the DoD--Including the AUDITING and CONTRACT OVERSIGHT groups. Now that work is...you guessed it.. contracted out because there's not enough government employees to oversee the contracts. This leads to fraud, embezzlement, and even deaths.<br>Thank Reagan. He started this stuff.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The 'smaller government ' advocates are the ones making money for the 'special interests' .
Government has stuff that * has * to be done .
If you do n't have government employees to do the work then you have to hire contractors .
Contractors as individuals are interested in good work , Contractors as organizations are interested in screwing the government for as much as possible .
The problem is that in DoD at least the 'peace benefit ' meant cutting into all branches of the DoD--Including the AUDITING and CONTRACT OVERSIGHT groups .
Now that work is...you guessed it.. contracted out because there 's not enough government employees to oversee the contracts .
This leads to fraud , embezzlement , and even deaths.Thank Reagan .
He started this stuff .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The 'smaller government' advocates are the ones making money for the 'special interests'.
Government has stuff that *has* to be done.
If you don't have government employees to do the work then you have to hire contractors.
Contractors as individuals are interested in good work, Contractors as organizations are interested in screwing the government for as much as possible.
The problem is that in DoD at least the 'peace benefit' meant cutting into all branches of the DoD--Including the AUDITING and CONTRACT OVERSIGHT groups.
Now that work is...you guessed it.. contracted out because there's not enough government employees to oversee the contracts.
This leads to fraud, embezzlement, and even deaths.Thank Reagan.
He started this stuff.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639334</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639666</id>
	<title>Yeah, because private industry pays sensible salar</title>
	<author>SmallFurryCreature</author>
	<datestamp>1269706800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You are trolling but you are not aware of it because you got a blind spot. Remember those banks that collapsed and took the whole economy with them? Private industry and filled with excessive salaries and people who get golden parachutes when they are "let go".
</p><p>About the only way to fix this is to cut management down. But what manager is going to say, "we don't need all these managers". I seen these kind of projects, they are pretty common. And it is always a case of management going out of control. You could produce a system like this with half a dozen skilled people. But in reality what you get is hundreds, and most of them having nothing to do with the system at all anymore.
</p><p>And that happens everywhere. Just why do you think MS employs so many people, and for what? If you took a shotgun and shot everyone with a management title at MS, it would affect their productivity at all. In fact, I am willing to bet it goes up. But nobody is going to do that, because the job you might cut, is your own.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You are trolling but you are not aware of it because you got a blind spot .
Remember those banks that collapsed and took the whole economy with them ?
Private industry and filled with excessive salaries and people who get golden parachutes when they are " let go " .
About the only way to fix this is to cut management down .
But what manager is going to say , " we do n't need all these managers " .
I seen these kind of projects , they are pretty common .
And it is always a case of management going out of control .
You could produce a system like this with half a dozen skilled people .
But in reality what you get is hundreds , and most of them having nothing to do with the system at all anymore .
And that happens everywhere .
Just why do you think MS employs so many people , and for what ?
If you took a shotgun and shot everyone with a management title at MS , it would affect their productivity at all .
In fact , I am willing to bet it goes up .
But nobody is going to do that , because the job you might cut , is your own .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are trolling but you are not aware of it because you got a blind spot.
Remember those banks that collapsed and took the whole economy with them?
Private industry and filled with excessive salaries and people who get golden parachutes when they are "let go".
About the only way to fix this is to cut management down.
But what manager is going to say, "we don't need all these managers".
I seen these kind of projects, they are pretty common.
And it is always a case of management going out of control.
You could produce a system like this with half a dozen skilled people.
But in reality what you get is hundreds, and most of them having nothing to do with the system at all anymore.
And that happens everywhere.
Just why do you think MS employs so many people, and for what?
If you took a shotgun and shot everyone with a management title at MS, it would affect their productivity at all.
In fact, I am willing to bet it goes up.
But nobody is going to do that, because the job you might cut, is your own.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639232</id>
	<title>Can You Say ...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269703440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>... oversight is on <i>vacation</i>? What does a project have to do to get sh!t canned? I could have <b>not delivered</b> a timekeeping and payroll system for 1/2 that!</htmltext>
<tokenext>... oversight is on vacation ?
What does a project have to do to get sh ! t canned ?
I could have not delivered a timekeeping and payroll system for 1/2 that !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... oversight is on vacation?
What does a project have to do to get sh!t canned?
I could have not delivered a timekeeping and payroll system for 1/2 that!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639652</id>
	<title>the scam of city government continues</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269706740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>the sad thing is that the taxpayers put up with it. and many even defend it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>the sad thing is that the taxpayers put up with it .
and many even defend it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>the sad thing is that the taxpayers put up with it.
and many even defend it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640190</id>
	<title>Re:We need more of these articles</title>
	<author>introspekt.i</author>
	<datestamp>1269710520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The nature of our DOE, NASA, and DOD budgets allow for this type of uncontrolled spending.</p></div><p> I think it's more of the fact that the people working at these organizations don't play hardball with contractors and make them finish on time and in budget.  We need accountability measures that make these firms liable for budget overruns and late deliveries, especially ones that are so egregious.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The nature of our DOE , NASA , and DOD budgets allow for this type of uncontrolled spending .
I think it 's more of the fact that the people working at these organizations do n't play hardball with contractors and make them finish on time and in budget .
We need accountability measures that make these firms liable for budget overruns and late deliveries , especially ones that are so egregious .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The nature of our DOE, NASA, and DOD budgets allow for this type of uncontrolled spending.
I think it's more of the fact that the people working at these organizations don't play hardball with contractors and make them finish on time and in budget.
We need accountability measures that make these firms liable for budget overruns and late deliveries, especially ones that are so egregious.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639334</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639256</id>
	<title>Hire more developers...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269703560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>at least NYC will get an extra 5k tax break per person...</htmltext>
<tokenext>at least NYC will get an extra 5k tax break per person.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>at least NYC will get an extra 5k tax break per person...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31649364</id>
	<title>Check the USA's timekeeper</title>
	<author>minstrelmike</author>
	<datestamp>1269806580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>USDA with 100,000 employees (US Dept of Agriculture) rolled out a new Time and Attendance system last year. On the dropdown box of time categories in the first pic, there were 20 painfully precise categories such as WorkType:Sunday:2nd shift (and 3rd and non-sunday...). The slider on the side looked really small so I estimated there were at least 400 different categories of type of pay spread over all the Agencies and Programs that make up USDA.<br> <br>

Delivering a product is a requirement, but how long do you think it takes to find out there are even 400 different categories of pay? I'll bet the guys who bought the first pass didn't know.<br> <br>

The basic rule of bureaucracy is that if you have a billion dollar program and wish to track where each million dollars goes, you will need a thousand line report. OTOH, if you want to track where each thousand dollars goes, you end up with a million different lines which requires a staff and overhead and yadda yadda yadda.</htmltext>
<tokenext>USDA with 100,000 employees ( US Dept of Agriculture ) rolled out a new Time and Attendance system last year .
On the dropdown box of time categories in the first pic , there were 20 painfully precise categories such as WorkType : Sunday : 2nd shift ( and 3rd and non-sunday... ) .
The slider on the side looked really small so I estimated there were at least 400 different categories of type of pay spread over all the Agencies and Programs that make up USDA .
Delivering a product is a requirement , but how long do you think it takes to find out there are even 400 different categories of pay ?
I 'll bet the guys who bought the first pass did n't know .
The basic rule of bureaucracy is that if you have a billion dollar program and wish to track where each million dollars goes , you will need a thousand line report .
OTOH , if you want to track where each thousand dollars goes , you end up with a million different lines which requires a staff and overhead and yadda yadda yadda .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>USDA with 100,000 employees (US Dept of Agriculture) rolled out a new Time and Attendance system last year.
On the dropdown box of time categories in the first pic, there were 20 painfully precise categories such as WorkType:Sunday:2nd shift (and 3rd and non-sunday...).
The slider on the side looked really small so I estimated there were at least 400 different categories of type of pay spread over all the Agencies and Programs that make up USDA.
Delivering a product is a requirement, but how long do you think it takes to find out there are even 400 different categories of pay?
I'll bet the guys who bought the first pass didn't know.
The basic rule of bureaucracy is that if you have a billion dollar program and wish to track where each million dollars goes, you will need a thousand line report.
OTOH, if you want to track where each thousand dollars goes, you end up with a million different lines which requires a staff and overhead and yadda yadda yadda.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639606</id>
	<title>isn't fraud a crime in NYNY?</title>
	<author>frnic</author>
	<datestamp>1269706260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The people charging these rates and not delivering and the people hiring them and paying them both should be in jail for fraud. That system can not possibly take that long or cost that must to develop.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The people charging these rates and not delivering and the people hiring them and paying them both should be in jail for fraud .
That system can not possibly take that long or cost that must to develop .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The people charging these rates and not delivering and the people hiring them and paying them both should be in jail for fraud.
That system can not possibly take that long or cost that must to develop.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640560</id>
	<title>Really sad</title>
	<author>sjames</author>
	<datestamp>1269712380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are plenty of people out there who will end up working productively for an entire lifetime for less money than these wastes of space have made on this one failed project. If we REALLY want to fix the economy, perhaps those people should be given a chance rather than laying them off so the living monuments to the broken window fallacy can get a raise.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are plenty of people out there who will end up working productively for an entire lifetime for less money than these wastes of space have made on this one failed project .
If we REALLY want to fix the economy , perhaps those people should be given a chance rather than laying them off so the living monuments to the broken window fallacy can get a raise .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are plenty of people out there who will end up working productively for an entire lifetime for less money than these wastes of space have made on this one failed project.
If we REALLY want to fix the economy, perhaps those people should be given a chance rather than laying them off so the living monuments to the broken window fallacy can get a raise.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639800</id>
	<title>Corruption</title>
	<author>BeanThere</author>
	<datestamp>1269707880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Is it just me or do Americans seem to have some kind of blind spot when it comes to government corruption? In any other country, this would've immediately been called for what it is, plain old corruption, and would be a scandal. It is obvious what is happening here.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is it just me or do Americans seem to have some kind of blind spot when it comes to government corruption ?
In any other country , this would 've immediately been called for what it is , plain old corruption , and would be a scandal .
It is obvious what is happening here .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is it just me or do Americans seem to have some kind of blind spot when it comes to government corruption?
In any other country, this would've immediately been called for what it is, plain old corruption, and would be a scandal.
It is obvious what is happening here.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639232</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639458</id>
	<title>Re:Slaves</title>
	<author>WrongSizeGlass</author>
	<datestamp>1269705000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>What is the purpose of an attendance system? To make sure someone is getting to work on time and not leaving before quitting time?</p><p>Sometimes people say that government employees should have greater scrutiny due to their being paid by the taxpayers, but I'm uncomfortable turning them into slaves.</p></div><p>I'd bet that if they didn't keep track of anyone's time that many people (maybe even <i>you</i>) would be complaining that people are showing up for work late, leaving early and generally 'working the system'. And they'd be right. <br> <br>
Governments (including NYC) are beholden to their citizens - and this includes making sure that people are showing up for their government jobs. They may not do a very good job at it (serving their c8itizens and/or doing their government jobs) but they damn well better try.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>What is the purpose of an attendance system ?
To make sure someone is getting to work on time and not leaving before quitting time ? Sometimes people say that government employees should have greater scrutiny due to their being paid by the taxpayers , but I 'm uncomfortable turning them into slaves.I 'd bet that if they did n't keep track of anyone 's time that many people ( maybe even you ) would be complaining that people are showing up for work late , leaving early and generally 'working the system' .
And they 'd be right .
Governments ( including NYC ) are beholden to their citizens - and this includes making sure that people are showing up for their government jobs .
They may not do a very good job at it ( serving their c8itizens and/or doing their government jobs ) but they damn well better try .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What is the purpose of an attendance system?
To make sure someone is getting to work on time and not leaving before quitting time?Sometimes people say that government employees should have greater scrutiny due to their being paid by the taxpayers, but I'm uncomfortable turning them into slaves.I'd bet that if they didn't keep track of anyone's time that many people (maybe even you) would be complaining that people are showing up for work late, leaving early and generally 'working the system'.
And they'd be right.
Governments (including NYC) are beholden to their citizens - and this includes making sure that people are showing up for their government jobs.
They may not do a very good job at it (serving their c8itizens and/or doing their government jobs) but they damn well better try.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639226</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640982</id>
	<title>Re:Cool..</title>
	<author>geekmux</author>
	<datestamp>1269715320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Well, imagining being one of those consultants, I would make sure this project would never finish! Obviously the longer it takes the more you make off of it. This is a recipe for disaster - and internal sabotage.</p></div><p>Well, sure you would make sure this project never finishes, IF you wanted to be known in the industry as one of the 230 most evil and corrupt consultants on the entire planet.</p><p>Point is unless you plan on banking enough to retire after this gig(which some of them probably already have made enough, but were probably as foolish with their money as the average American), you should approach EVERY consulting job with at least one ounce of Professionalism.</p><p>That being said, 80\% of this blame should rest on the Mayor HIMSELF, not his yes-men, or his business cronies.  HE is the one signing off on the City budget for this fucking disaster year after year.  Yeah the Project Managers are to blame too, but he is ultimately the one who is choosing to feed this monster.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , imagining being one of those consultants , I would make sure this project would never finish !
Obviously the longer it takes the more you make off of it .
This is a recipe for disaster - and internal sabotage.Well , sure you would make sure this project never finishes , IF you wanted to be known in the industry as one of the 230 most evil and corrupt consultants on the entire planet.Point is unless you plan on banking enough to retire after this gig ( which some of them probably already have made enough , but were probably as foolish with their money as the average American ) , you should approach EVERY consulting job with at least one ounce of Professionalism.That being said , 80 \ % of this blame should rest on the Mayor HIMSELF , not his yes-men , or his business cronies .
HE is the one signing off on the City budget for this fucking disaster year after year .
Yeah the Project Managers are to blame too , but he is ultimately the one who is choosing to feed this monster .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, imagining being one of those consultants, I would make sure this project would never finish!
Obviously the longer it takes the more you make off of it.
This is a recipe for disaster - and internal sabotage.Well, sure you would make sure this project never finishes, IF you wanted to be known in the industry as one of the 230 most evil and corrupt consultants on the entire planet.Point is unless you plan on banking enough to retire after this gig(which some of them probably already have made enough, but were probably as foolish with their money as the average American), you should approach EVERY consulting job with at least one ounce of Professionalism.That being said, 80\% of this blame should rest on the Mayor HIMSELF, not his yes-men, or his business cronies.
HE is the one signing off on the City budget for this fucking disaster year after year.
Yeah the Project Managers are to blame too, but he is ultimately the one who is choosing to feed this monster.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639454</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31645602</id>
	<title>Re:Slaves</title>
	<author>Prof.Phreak</author>
	<datestamp>1269718740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hmm... you're looking at from the wrong point of view. The project is functioning perfectly! It's keeping so many consultants employed, it's amazing! I wish I was a consultant on such a project... Do nothing for a decade, make $500k a year, no accountability, sounds like a wonderful job!</p><p>It's not in consultant's best interests to ever finish a job. So why are they surprised that it's not finished? Well... d0h!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hmm... you 're looking at from the wrong point of view .
The project is functioning perfectly !
It 's keeping so many consultants employed , it 's amazing !
I wish I was a consultant on such a project... Do nothing for a decade , make $ 500k a year , no accountability , sounds like a wonderful job ! It 's not in consultant 's best interests to ever finish a job .
So why are they surprised that it 's not finished ?
Well... d0h !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hmm... you're looking at from the wrong point of view.
The project is functioning perfectly!
It's keeping so many consultants employed, it's amazing!
I wish I was a consultant on such a project... Do nothing for a decade, make $500k a year, no accountability, sounds like a wonderful job!It's not in consultant's best interests to ever finish a job.
So why are they surprised that it's not finished?
Well... d0h!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639544</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639924</id>
	<title>that's the fee to the contractor, not the salary</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269708780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hey folks, it's not as bad as all that (although it *is* pretty extreme).  The $600K is what SAIC is billing NYC.  That's probably 3x what the actual worker gets, if not more.  The $600K includes benefits, rent, electricity, computer rental, office support, management, etc.  And NYC *is* an expensive city to buy all that stuff in.</p><p>Practically, speaking, this is a REALLY complex job.  I'll bet NYC has tens of thousands of different job categories, each with its own idiosyncratic, poorly documented rules, not to mention rafts of collective bargaining agreements that have varying tiers and seniority grades, and probably different sick time/vacation/holiday schedules, not to mention weird shift differentials.</p><p>ANd, I'll bet it has to provide interfaces to dozens, if not hundreds, of different departmental payroll systems, because each agency/department has said "I'm not going to change OUR system"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hey folks , it 's not as bad as all that ( although it * is * pretty extreme ) .
The $ 600K is what SAIC is billing NYC .
That 's probably 3x what the actual worker gets , if not more .
The $ 600K includes benefits , rent , electricity , computer rental , office support , management , etc .
And NYC * is * an expensive city to buy all that stuff in.Practically , speaking , this is a REALLY complex job .
I 'll bet NYC has tens of thousands of different job categories , each with its own idiosyncratic , poorly documented rules , not to mention rafts of collective bargaining agreements that have varying tiers and seniority grades , and probably different sick time/vacation/holiday schedules , not to mention weird shift differentials.ANd , I 'll bet it has to provide interfaces to dozens , if not hundreds , of different departmental payroll systems , because each agency/department has said " I 'm not going to change OUR system "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hey folks, it's not as bad as all that (although it *is* pretty extreme).
The $600K is what SAIC is billing NYC.
That's probably 3x what the actual worker gets, if not more.
The $600K includes benefits, rent, electricity, computer rental, office support, management, etc.
And NYC *is* an expensive city to buy all that stuff in.Practically, speaking, this is a REALLY complex job.
I'll bet NYC has tens of thousands of different job categories, each with its own idiosyncratic, poorly documented rules, not to mention rafts of collective bargaining agreements that have varying tiers and seniority grades, and probably different sick time/vacation/holiday schedules, not to mention weird shift differentials.ANd, I'll bet it has to provide interfaces to dozens, if not hundreds, of different departmental payroll systems, because each agency/department has said "I'm not going to change OUR system"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639624</id>
	<title>Re:We need more of these articles</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269706500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hm...  If only you could get more than the SF or Tech Geek crowd riled up in a manner where we could get people to be that interested in fixing things by way of elections to do it.  Right now, we've got the government we so richly deserve right at the moment because of the disinterest, etc.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hm... If only you could get more than the SF or Tech Geek crowd riled up in a manner where we could get people to be that interested in fixing things by way of elections to do it .
Right now , we 've got the government we so richly deserve right at the moment because of the disinterest , etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hm...  If only you could get more than the SF or Tech Geek crowd riled up in a manner where we could get people to be that interested in fixing things by way of elections to do it.
Right now, we've got the government we so richly deserve right at the moment because of the disinterest, etc.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639334</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640028</id>
	<title>Re:Cool..</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269709560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Though I would wonder what fraction of that $600k/year those consultants actually see.</p><p>Sure SAIC (the consulting company) may charge $$$$ per hour, but instead throw some witless junior consultant on the project who only gets $60k/year -- it's called profit margin.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Though I would wonder what fraction of that $ 600k/year those consultants actually see.Sure SAIC ( the consulting company ) may charge $ $ $ $ per hour , but instead throw some witless junior consultant on the project who only gets $ 60k/year -- it 's called profit margin .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Though I would wonder what fraction of that $600k/year those consultants actually see.Sure SAIC (the consulting company) may charge $$$$ per hour, but instead throw some witless junior consultant on the project who only gets $60k/year -- it's called profit margin.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639270</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639270</id>
	<title>Cool..</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269703620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Where do i sign up?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Where do i sign up ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Where do i sign up?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31644054</id>
	<title>Re:How hard can it be</title>
	<author>Blakey Rat</author>
	<datestamp>1269698760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>How hard can it be to program a computerized timekeeping and payroll system.</i></p><p>It's actually pretty hard if you're an entity like New York City, dealing with dozens of unions, all of which have their own contracts negotiated with completely different rates, clauses, classifications of hours, etc. Just codifying all of the union contracts into the system is a significant investment of time, and you need to have ongoing support for when the contracts are re-negotiated each year.</p><p>That said, there's still no excuse for this.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How hard can it be to program a computerized timekeeping and payroll system.It 's actually pretty hard if you 're an entity like New York City , dealing with dozens of unions , all of which have their own contracts negotiated with completely different rates , clauses , classifications of hours , etc .
Just codifying all of the union contracts into the system is a significant investment of time , and you need to have ongoing support for when the contracts are re-negotiated each year.That said , there 's still no excuse for this .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How hard can it be to program a computerized timekeeping and payroll system.It's actually pretty hard if you're an entity like New York City, dealing with dozens of unions, all of which have their own contracts negotiated with completely different rates, clauses, classifications of hours, etc.
Just codifying all of the union contracts into the system is a significant investment of time, and you need to have ongoing support for when the contracts are re-negotiated each year.That said, there's still no excuse for this.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639388</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639294</id>
	<title>Re:Slaves</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269703800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Paper and pencil would be cheaper.<br>Whatever cost-benefit mumbo jumbo and risk-management, personal responsibility for pulling the pin on this one is overdue.<br>Remains to be seen if this one beats the British NHS dudaster.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Paper and pencil would be cheaper.Whatever cost-benefit mumbo jumbo and risk-management , personal responsibility for pulling the pin on this one is overdue.Remains to be seen if this one beats the British NHS dudaster .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Paper and pencil would be cheaper.Whatever cost-benefit mumbo jumbo and risk-management, personal responsibility for pulling the pin on this one is overdue.Remains to be seen if this one beats the British NHS dudaster.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639226</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31641426</id>
	<title>Re:Government Project Cost Overruns?</title>
	<author>lgw</author>
	<datestamp>1269718260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When you start ranting that "the problem in this market is all the evil monopolies" you might want to stop for breath.  A single system for filing claims would be a huge improvement in the way the business of healthcare operates.  Huge.  And totally within the legitimate provenance of government to enforce, much like the uniform commercial code standardizes a bunch of other stuff about contracts and customer-business relationships at the logistical level.</p><p>How about we just fix the problems?</p><p>Problem: too many complex paperwork systems for filing claims consumes a huge amount of healthcare dollars.<br>Solution: have the government create a standardized system (not prices, just medical terms and filing process).</p><p>Problem: too many people have no access to health insurance, and so access heallth care in very inefficient ways.<br>Solution: give those people government health insurance.</p><p>I would dearly love a government that was trying to fix the actual problems, instead of using the actual problems <i>as an excuse to grow the power of government over our daily lives</i>.  No where in fixing the actual problems is it necessary for the IRS to know the details of what my health insurance plan covers!  No where in fixing the actual problems does the government get to say "providing health care for all has become too expensive, so let's outlaw the following unhealthy behaviors."  If you think the latter is far-fetched, you haven't been paying attention, here or abroad.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When you start ranting that " the problem in this market is all the evil monopolies " you might want to stop for breath .
A single system for filing claims would be a huge improvement in the way the business of healthcare operates .
Huge. And totally within the legitimate provenance of government to enforce , much like the uniform commercial code standardizes a bunch of other stuff about contracts and customer-business relationships at the logistical level.How about we just fix the problems ? Problem : too many complex paperwork systems for filing claims consumes a huge amount of healthcare dollars.Solution : have the government create a standardized system ( not prices , just medical terms and filing process ) .Problem : too many people have no access to health insurance , and so access heallth care in very inefficient ways.Solution : give those people government health insurance.I would dearly love a government that was trying to fix the actual problems , instead of using the actual problems as an excuse to grow the power of government over our daily lives .
No where in fixing the actual problems is it necessary for the IRS to know the details of what my health insurance plan covers !
No where in fixing the actual problems does the government get to say " providing health care for all has become too expensive , so let 's outlaw the following unhealthy behaviors .
" If you think the latter is far-fetched , you have n't been paying attention , here or abroad .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When you start ranting that "the problem in this market is all the evil monopolies" you might want to stop for breath.
A single system for filing claims would be a huge improvement in the way the business of healthcare operates.
Huge.  And totally within the legitimate provenance of government to enforce, much like the uniform commercial code standardizes a bunch of other stuff about contracts and customer-business relationships at the logistical level.How about we just fix the problems?Problem: too many complex paperwork systems for filing claims consumes a huge amount of healthcare dollars.Solution: have the government create a standardized system (not prices, just medical terms and filing process).Problem: too many people have no access to health insurance, and so access heallth care in very inefficient ways.Solution: give those people government health insurance.I would dearly love a government that was trying to fix the actual problems, instead of using the actual problems as an excuse to grow the power of government over our daily lives.
No where in fixing the actual problems is it necessary for the IRS to know the details of what my health insurance plan covers!
No where in fixing the actual problems does the government get to say "providing health care for all has become too expensive, so let's outlaw the following unhealthy behaviors.
"  If you think the latter is far-fetched, you haven't been paying attention, here or abroad.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639734</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639398</id>
	<title>who wrote the software</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269704520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>"<i>City Council to probe <a href="http://www.nydailynews.com/ny\_local/2009/12/18/2009-12-18\_behind\_a\_bloated\_contract\_council\_will\_probe\_timeclock\_company.html" title="nydailynews.com" rel="nofollow">CityTime</a> [nydailynews.com]; timekeeping and payroll system costing city $700M</i>"<br> <br>

"<i>The IT Employee Confidence Index increased 0.6 points to 50.8 in the fourth quarter of 2009, according to a recent survey commissioned by Technisource&#174;, the technology placement division of <a href="http://whyitnow.org/it-workers-slightly-more-confident.htm" title="whyitnow.org" rel="nofollow">Spherion Corporation</a> [whyitnow.org] </i>"<br> <br>

"<i>As a technology executive, you are constantly expected to do more with less. Technisource offers specialized IT consulting and outsourcing solutions through <a href="http://www.technisource.com/management-services.jsp" title="technisource.com" rel="nofollow">The Provali Group</a> [technisource.com]&#174;, a division of Technisource launched in March of 2009</i>"</htmltext>
<tokenext>" City Council to probe CityTime [ nydailynews.com ] ; timekeeping and payroll system costing city $ 700M " " The IT Employee Confidence Index increased 0.6 points to 50.8 in the fourth quarter of 2009 , according to a recent survey commissioned by Technisource   , the technology placement division of Spherion Corporation [ whyitnow.org ] " " As a technology executive , you are constantly expected to do more with less .
Technisource offers specialized IT consulting and outsourcing solutions through The Provali Group [ technisource.com ]   , a division of Technisource launched in March of 2009 "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"City Council to probe CityTime [nydailynews.com]; timekeeping and payroll system costing city $700M" 

"The IT Employee Confidence Index increased 0.6 points to 50.8 in the fourth quarter of 2009, according to a recent survey commissioned by Technisource®, the technology placement division of Spherion Corporation [whyitnow.org] " 

"As a technology executive, you are constantly expected to do more with less.
Technisource offers specialized IT consulting and outsourcing solutions through The Provali Group [technisource.com]®, a division of Technisource launched in March of 2009"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31642034</id>
	<title>Re:Can You Say ...</title>
	<author>aminorex</author>
	<datestamp>1269722880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; I could have not delivered a timekeeping and payroll system for 1/2 that!</p><p>Not on Manhattan living expenses you couldn't.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; I could have not delivered a timekeeping and payroll system for 1/2 that ! Not on Manhattan living expenses you could n't .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; I could have not delivered a timekeeping and payroll system for 1/2 that!Not on Manhattan living expenses you couldn't.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639232</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31644078</id>
	<title>Re:This is a *private* sector project</title>
	<author>Blakey Rat</author>
	<datestamp>1269699060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Let me ask you a simple question: why is the government still paying "Science Applications International Corp." if they have failed in their task?</p><p>When you can answer that question, you will understand the zen of government waste.</p><p><i>And if you think the private sector is any better, you're living in a fantasy land.</i></p><p>First of all, even if the private sector was ten thousand times *worse*, that's <i>completely irrelevant to the conversation</i>. This is just replying "but but... Windows has the same problem!" any time someone points out a weakness in Linux. Who cares?</p><p>But secondly, if you do care about that (even though it's not relevant to the conversation), at least the private sector <i>isn't wasting money it took from private citizens at gunpoint</i>. Which is basically what taxes are, when you boil it down a bit. They're wasting their own money, which they're perfectly entitled to do.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Let me ask you a simple question : why is the government still paying " Science Applications International Corp. " if they have failed in their task ? When you can answer that question , you will understand the zen of government waste.And if you think the private sector is any better , you 're living in a fantasy land.First of all , even if the private sector was ten thousand times * worse * , that 's completely irrelevant to the conversation .
This is just replying " but but... Windows has the same problem !
" any time someone points out a weakness in Linux .
Who cares ? But secondly , if you do care about that ( even though it 's not relevant to the conversation ) , at least the private sector is n't wasting money it took from private citizens at gunpoint .
Which is basically what taxes are , when you boil it down a bit .
They 're wasting their own money , which they 're perfectly entitled to do .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Let me ask you a simple question: why is the government still paying "Science Applications International Corp." if they have failed in their task?When you can answer that question, you will understand the zen of government waste.And if you think the private sector is any better, you're living in a fantasy land.First of all, even if the private sector was ten thousand times *worse*, that's completely irrelevant to the conversation.
This is just replying "but but... Windows has the same problem!
" any time someone points out a weakness in Linux.
Who cares?But secondly, if you do care about that (even though it's not relevant to the conversation), at least the private sector isn't wasting money it took from private citizens at gunpoint.
Which is basically what taxes are, when you boil it down a bit.
They're wasting their own money, which they're perfectly entitled to do.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639768</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31643834</id>
	<title>Re:Stupid way to contract: by the hour</title>
	<author>tompaulco</author>
	<datestamp>1269696480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I doubt that the city would have been able to find a company willing to give them a fixed bid. Just the discovery process would cost probably $20 million. I doubt that any company would front that kind of money unless the contract was already a shoe-in, or the city agreed to pay for discovery.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I doubt that the city would have been able to find a company willing to give them a fixed bid .
Just the discovery process would cost probably $ 20 million .
I doubt that any company would front that kind of money unless the contract was already a shoe-in , or the city agreed to pay for discovery .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I doubt that the city would have been able to find a company willing to give them a fixed bid.
Just the discovery process would cost probably $20 million.
I doubt that any company would front that kind of money unless the contract was already a shoe-in, or the city agreed to pay for discovery.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640160</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639750</id>
	<title>Re:Government Project Cost Overruns?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269707520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>"What was your estimate on the last landfill's lifetime, and how long did it actually last?" </i></p><p>I can predict the answer to that question: "50 years, and it's still around."  How many of these companies are older than 50 years do you think?</p><p><i>I have a friend who was a teacher in California for a year. She was laid off and promptly given 2/3rds her previous salary in unemployment benefits. Pretty good for keeping the same employer and just not working anymore. If I tried that it would result in a 100\% pay cut. </i></p><p>Do you not qualify for unemployment benefits?  Or are you placing some weird distinction on the fact that the unemployment benefits are also paid by the state so somehow that means she's "keeping the same employer"?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" What was your estimate on the last landfill 's lifetime , and how long did it actually last ?
" I can predict the answer to that question : " 50 years , and it 's still around .
" How many of these companies are older than 50 years do you think ? I have a friend who was a teacher in California for a year .
She was laid off and promptly given 2/3rds her previous salary in unemployment benefits .
Pretty good for keeping the same employer and just not working anymore .
If I tried that it would result in a 100 \ % pay cut .
Do you not qualify for unemployment benefits ?
Or are you placing some weird distinction on the fact that the unemployment benefits are also paid by the state so somehow that means she 's " keeping the same employer " ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"What was your estimate on the last landfill's lifetime, and how long did it actually last?
" I can predict the answer to that question: "50 years, and it's still around.
"  How many of these companies are older than 50 years do you think?I have a friend who was a teacher in California for a year.
She was laid off and promptly given 2/3rds her previous salary in unemployment benefits.
Pretty good for keeping the same employer and just not working anymore.
If I tried that it would result in a 100\% pay cut.
Do you not qualify for unemployment benefits?
Or are you placing some weird distinction on the fact that the unemployment benefits are also paid by the state so somehow that means she's "keeping the same employer"?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31642264</id>
	<title>Re:How hard can it be</title>
	<author>Locke2005</author>
	<datestamp>1269681540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>How hard can it be to program a computerized timekeeping and payroll system.</i> In their defense, they had to completely recode everything when they moved the start/stop date for daylight saving time...</htmltext>
<tokenext>How hard can it be to program a computerized timekeeping and payroll system .
In their defense , they had to completely recode everything when they moved the start/stop date for daylight saving time.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How hard can it be to program a computerized timekeeping and payroll system.
In their defense, they had to completely recode everything when they moved the start/stop date for daylight saving time...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639388</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31641012</id>
	<title>Re:How hard can it be</title>
	<author>geekmux</author>
	<datestamp>1269715440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>How hard can it be to program a computerized timekeeping and payroll system.</p><p>230 highly paid people and it has been underdevelopment for over a decade?
1 person should of been able to get it done in a decade.</p></div><p>Er, what makes you think this Project ever had an end date, or even a goal?  I'm sorry, but something going on for this long, and with all the right "players" involved through greased palm backroom deals, it just screams corruption.  And yes. Mr. Mayor, I'm talking to YOU.  You're the one approving this budget year after year.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>How hard can it be to program a computerized timekeeping and payroll system.230 highly paid people and it has been underdevelopment for over a decade ?
1 person should of been able to get it done in a decade.Er , what makes you think this Project ever had an end date , or even a goal ?
I 'm sorry , but something going on for this long , and with all the right " players " involved through greased palm backroom deals , it just screams corruption .
And yes .
Mr. Mayor , I 'm talking to YOU .
You 're the one approving this budget year after year .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How hard can it be to program a computerized timekeeping and payroll system.230 highly paid people and it has been underdevelopment for over a decade?
1 person should of been able to get it done in a decade.Er, what makes you think this Project ever had an end date, or even a goal?
I'm sorry, but something going on for this long, and with all the right "players" involved through greased palm backroom deals, it just screams corruption.
And yes.
Mr. Mayor, I'm talking to YOU.
You're the one approving this budget year after year.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639388</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31644926</id>
	<title>Re:Government Project Cost Overruns?</title>
	<author>thePowerOfGrayskull</author>
	<datestamp>1269709140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>How is that not waste on a far larger scale?</p></div><p>The difference here, of course, is that those are private funds.  If they want to waste that money, it's their business -- because the money is not provided by you and me in the form of mandatory taxes.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>No business executive deserves to earn millions of dollars.</p> </div><p>Um, they don't? Why not?  Can you substantiate this opinion in any way? That money belongs to the company and its shareholders, to dispense as they see fit.  This means if those parties think that someone deserves a bonus, guess what -- that person deserves a bonus.  Don't like it? Buy stock enough to get you on the Board of one of those companies, and then make your opinion known.  Arrange mass boycotts of their products, such that it hurts their bottom line.   Organize a negative publicity campaign.  There are many ways you can effect change.
</p><p>
Alternatively you can just keep complaining about how nobody "deserves" that kind of money without substantiating your claims with any kind of logic.  That's probably the easiest route as it requires nothing but a couple of minutes of your time: no personal involvement, no research, no commitment.  Fortunately for the rest of us (including the Big Evil Corps),  it's also the most ineffectual option available to you.
</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>How is that not waste on a far larger scale ? The difference here , of course , is that those are private funds .
If they want to waste that money , it 's their business -- because the money is not provided by you and me in the form of mandatory taxes.No business executive deserves to earn millions of dollars .
Um , they do n't ?
Why not ?
Can you substantiate this opinion in any way ?
That money belongs to the company and its shareholders , to dispense as they see fit .
This means if those parties think that someone deserves a bonus , guess what -- that person deserves a bonus .
Do n't like it ?
Buy stock enough to get you on the Board of one of those companies , and then make your opinion known .
Arrange mass boycotts of their products , such that it hurts their bottom line .
Organize a negative publicity campaign .
There are many ways you can effect change .
Alternatively you can just keep complaining about how nobody " deserves " that kind of money without substantiating your claims with any kind of logic .
That 's probably the easiest route as it requires nothing but a couple of minutes of your time : no personal involvement , no research , no commitment .
Fortunately for the rest of us ( including the Big Evil Corps ) , it 's also the most ineffectual option available to you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How is that not waste on a far larger scale?The difference here, of course, is that those are private funds.
If they want to waste that money, it's their business -- because the money is not provided by you and me in the form of mandatory taxes.No business executive deserves to earn millions of dollars.
Um, they don't?
Why not?
Can you substantiate this opinion in any way?
That money belongs to the company and its shareholders, to dispense as they see fit.
This means if those parties think that someone deserves a bonus, guess what -- that person deserves a bonus.
Don't like it?
Buy stock enough to get you on the Board of one of those companies, and then make your opinion known.
Arrange mass boycotts of their products, such that it hurts their bottom line.
Organize a negative publicity campaign.
There are many ways you can effect change.
Alternatively you can just keep complaining about how nobody "deserves" that kind of money without substantiating your claims with any kind of logic.
That's probably the easiest route as it requires nothing but a couple of minutes of your time: no personal involvement, no research, no commitment.
Fortunately for the rest of us (including the Big Evil Corps),  it's also the most ineffectual option available to you.

	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639600</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31661294</id>
	<title>2 Things</title>
	<author>dcollins</author>
	<datestamp>1269895740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>First, from the article (p. 2):</p><p><div class="quote"><p>SAIC, by the way, is the company the FBI threw off the job a few years ago after charging the agency $170 million for a virtual file system that never worked.</p></div><p>So, this one company worked on two of the most legendary government-related failed IT projects of all time. For the corporate apologists, it's hard not to smell this really bad odor coming from the company in question.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Several former CityTime workers have told The News city officials have ignored their complaints about questionable consultant timesheets, defective software and possible conflicts of interest between key CityTime managers and subcontractors... In January, Liu rejected an extension of Spherion's contract and began the first-ever audit of the entire project. Liu has since labeled CityTime a "money pit." He urged Bloomberg to suspend payments until the audit is finished.</p></div><p>So we have documented allegations of conflicts-of-interest at the company. Moreover for the "can't believe taxpayers allow this" crowd (NYC political info here): Anger at Mayor Bloomberg is high. His first two terms, he had an allied city controller (audits, etc.) For the first time in November '09 we elected a non-allied city controller (over Bloomberg's opposition), and he is just now getting to serious audits of the project, recommending suspension of payments, etc. So this whole article wouldn't have come to light if not for the will of the electorate last fall.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>First , from the article ( p. 2 ) : SAIC , by the way , is the company the FBI threw off the job a few years ago after charging the agency $ 170 million for a virtual file system that never worked.So , this one company worked on two of the most legendary government-related failed IT projects of all time .
For the corporate apologists , it 's hard not to smell this really bad odor coming from the company in question.Several former CityTime workers have told The News city officials have ignored their complaints about questionable consultant timesheets , defective software and possible conflicts of interest between key CityTime managers and subcontractors... In January , Liu rejected an extension of Spherion 's contract and began the first-ever audit of the entire project .
Liu has since labeled CityTime a " money pit .
" He urged Bloomberg to suspend payments until the audit is finished.So we have documented allegations of conflicts-of-interest at the company .
Moreover for the " ca n't believe taxpayers allow this " crowd ( NYC political info here ) : Anger at Mayor Bloomberg is high .
His first two terms , he had an allied city controller ( audits , etc .
) For the first time in November '09 we elected a non-allied city controller ( over Bloomberg 's opposition ) , and he is just now getting to serious audits of the project , recommending suspension of payments , etc .
So this whole article would n't have come to light if not for the will of the electorate last fall .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First, from the article (p. 2):SAIC, by the way, is the company the FBI threw off the job a few years ago after charging the agency $170 million for a virtual file system that never worked.So, this one company worked on two of the most legendary government-related failed IT projects of all time.
For the corporate apologists, it's hard not to smell this really bad odor coming from the company in question.Several former CityTime workers have told The News city officials have ignored their complaints about questionable consultant timesheets, defective software and possible conflicts of interest between key CityTime managers and subcontractors... In January, Liu rejected an extension of Spherion's contract and began the first-ever audit of the entire project.
Liu has since labeled CityTime a "money pit.
" He urged Bloomberg to suspend payments until the audit is finished.So we have documented allegations of conflicts-of-interest at the company.
Moreover for the "can't believe taxpayers allow this" crowd (NYC political info here): Anger at Mayor Bloomberg is high.
His first two terms, he had an allied city controller (audits, etc.
) For the first time in November '09 we elected a non-allied city controller (over Bloomberg's opposition), and he is just now getting to serious audits of the project, recommending suspension of payments, etc.
So this whole article wouldn't have come to light if not for the will of the electorate last fall.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640690</id>
	<title>Re:This is a *private* sector project</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269713100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>public sector is incompetent but at least its well meaning incompetence<br>private sector is incompetence combined with greed</p><p>ill take the first one</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>public sector is incompetent but at least its well meaning incompetenceprivate sector is incompetence combined with greedill take the first one</tokentext>
<sentencetext>public sector is incompetent but at least its well meaning incompetenceprivate sector is incompetence combined with greedill take the first one</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639768</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31641022</id>
	<title>Re:Government Project Cost Overruns?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269715500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Government doesn't have to waste money...better oversight would help.</p><p>And STOP CALLING ME SHIRLEY!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Government does n't have to waste money...better oversight would help.And STOP CALLING ME SHIRLEY !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Government doesn't have to waste money...better oversight would help.And STOP CALLING ME SHIRLEY!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31643476</id>
	<title>Vote with your wallet</title>
	<author>deblau</author>
	<datestamp>1269692520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Move out of New York City.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Move out of New York City .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Move out of New York City.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640714</id>
	<title>Re:This is a *private* sector project</title>
	<author>greg\_barton</author>
	<datestamp>1269713400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wish I had a mod point for you.</p><p>Fraud and corruption is everwhere in equal measure.  Those who say one side or the other are more pure either have an agenda, are idiots, or both.  I've seen private companies throw away tens of millions of dollars, and that was on relatively small projects.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Wish I had a mod point for you.Fraud and corruption is everwhere in equal measure .
Those who say one side or the other are more pure either have an agenda , are idiots , or both .
I 've seen private companies throw away tens of millions of dollars , and that was on relatively small projects .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wish I had a mod point for you.Fraud and corruption is everwhere in equal measure.
Those who say one side or the other are more pure either have an agenda, are idiots, or both.
I've seen private companies throw away tens of millions of dollars, and that was on relatively small projects.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639768</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639572</id>
	<title>Re:Slaves | it works both ways yah know</title>
	<author>RobertLTux</author>
	<datestamp>1269706020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>being able to prove that you were in fact clocked in and working from 8:55 to 16:05 on monday (and the other 4 days of the week within about 2 minutes) does real wonders for GETTING PAID FOR THOSE TIMES. or for the cases where you actually left on thursday at 20:00 because something went BANG and you had to handle it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>being able to prove that you were in fact clocked in and working from 8 : 55 to 16 : 05 on monday ( and the other 4 days of the week within about 2 minutes ) does real wonders for GETTING PAID FOR THOSE TIMES .
or for the cases where you actually left on thursday at 20 : 00 because something went BANG and you had to handle it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>being able to prove that you were in fact clocked in and working from 8:55 to 16:05 on monday (and the other 4 days of the week within about 2 minutes) does real wonders for GETTING PAID FOR THOSE TIMES.
or for the cases where you actually left on thursday at 20:00 because something went BANG and you had to handle it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639226</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31641180</id>
	<title>ironic</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269716460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>they are late on a time keeping system</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>they are late on a time keeping system</tokentext>
<sentencetext>they are late on a time keeping system</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639492</id>
	<title>Consulting</title>
	<author>McGruber</author>
	<datestamp>1269705360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Consulting:  When you're not part of the solution, there is good money in prolonging the problem.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Consulting : When you 're not part of the solution , there is good money in prolonging the problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Consulting:  When you're not part of the solution, there is good money in prolonging the problem.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640134</id>
	<title>self-referential fun</title>
	<author>Danny Rathjens</author>
	<datestamp>1269710220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I love that one point of the system was to <i>eliminate the age-old abuse of city workers punching clocks for their friends and save up to $60 million a year</i>.<br>A project to prevent the city from overpaying people for doing nothing is being overpaid to do nothing.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I love that one point of the system was to eliminate the age-old abuse of city workers punching clocks for their friends and save up to $ 60 million a year.A project to prevent the city from overpaying people for doing nothing is being overpaid to do nothing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I love that one point of the system was to eliminate the age-old abuse of city workers punching clocks for their friends and save up to $60 million a year.A project to prevent the city from overpaying people for doing nothing is being overpaid to do nothing.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31645130</id>
	<title>Pay me $500k/yr...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269711540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If it's <em>just</em> software, you can pay me $500k/yr salary and I'll personally complete the entire project all by myself in a single year (* provided you do not change the spec during that time).</p><p>Just send me the spec and a one-month advance (which will more than cover all my expenses for an entire year), and I'll have an "80\%" prototype ready at the end of the first month.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If it 's just software , you can pay me $ 500k/yr salary and I 'll personally complete the entire project all by myself in a single year ( * provided you do not change the spec during that time ) .Just send me the spec and a one-month advance ( which will more than cover all my expenses for an entire year ) , and I 'll have an " 80 \ % " prototype ready at the end of the first month .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If it's just software, you can pay me $500k/yr salary and I'll personally complete the entire project all by myself in a single year (* provided you do not change the spec during that time).Just send me the spec and a one-month advance (which will more than cover all my expenses for an entire year), and I'll have an "80\%" prototype ready at the end of the first month.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639816</id>
	<title>Humans, not Government</title>
	<author>archer, the</author>
	<datestamp>1269708000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Any place where an "overly greedy" human can make an extra buck at someone else's expense, they will. Yes, people should be paid for their work. When they charge so much that the customers can't put food on the table, there's a problem. Or, if dragging something out increases profit, some humans will do this. It'd be nice if we could switch to where profit was based on the task being completed, not the amount of effort that went into the task. Take healthcare. They profit off of treatment. Unethical healthcare companies could choose to not develop better/cheaper treatments, simply because they would lose profit. I'd love to see a system where they only get paid if the treatment works. (Obviously, this is difficult where the current treatments don't always work: cancer, AIDS, etc...)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Any place where an " overly greedy " human can make an extra buck at someone else 's expense , they will .
Yes , people should be paid for their work .
When they charge so much that the customers ca n't put food on the table , there 's a problem .
Or , if dragging something out increases profit , some humans will do this .
It 'd be nice if we could switch to where profit was based on the task being completed , not the amount of effort that went into the task .
Take healthcare .
They profit off of treatment .
Unethical healthcare companies could choose to not develop better/cheaper treatments , simply because they would lose profit .
I 'd love to see a system where they only get paid if the treatment works .
( Obviously , this is difficult where the current treatments do n't always work : cancer , AIDS , etc... )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Any place where an "overly greedy" human can make an extra buck at someone else's expense, they will.
Yes, people should be paid for their work.
When they charge so much that the customers can't put food on the table, there's a problem.
Or, if dragging something out increases profit, some humans will do this.
It'd be nice if we could switch to where profit was based on the task being completed, not the amount of effort that went into the task.
Take healthcare.
They profit off of treatment.
Unethical healthcare companies could choose to not develop better/cheaper treatments, simply because they would lose profit.
I'd love to see a system where they only get paid if the treatment works.
(Obviously, this is difficult where the current treatments don't always work: cancer, AIDS, etc...)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640724</id>
	<title>Re:Lack of Competition...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269713460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You just failed several intelligence tests.  Nothing like reading a couple lines of an article and applying your ideology to make up the rest of the facts, is their?  It reinforces your beliefs and makes you feel good because you think you're right.  If you actually bother to read what actually happened, that might conflict with your beliefs. And we can't have that, can we?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You just failed several intelligence tests .
Nothing like reading a couple lines of an article and applying your ideology to make up the rest of the facts , is their ?
It reinforces your beliefs and makes you feel good because you think you 're right .
If you actually bother to read what actually happened , that might conflict with your beliefs .
And we ca n't have that , can we ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You just failed several intelligence tests.
Nothing like reading a couple lines of an article and applying your ideology to make up the rest of the facts, is their?
It reinforces your beliefs and makes you feel good because you think you're right.
If you actually bother to read what actually happened, that might conflict with your beliefs.
And we can't have that, can we?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639736</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640336</id>
	<title>Re:Government Project Cost Overruns?</title>
	<author>RAMMS+EIN</author>
	<datestamp>1269711240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>``And yet many of the same people who will cry foul over this will be first in line telling the government it is morally obligated to provide X social program or prop up Y industry "for the good of the country." Surely that isn't a colossal waste, won't go to lining the pockets of consultants, won't get dragged down by graft, won't go over budget estimations, et cetera.''</p><p>I think you're conflating two issues there. Allow me to explain.</p><p>Your whole post is full of examples of government inefficiency. They are good examples, and I am completely with you there. Government is inefficient, and we know it.</p><p>Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that there is no inefficiency outside of government. And indeed, there is plenty. However, there is a key difference between inefficiency in government and inefficiency outside of government, and that is that, outside of government, you have a choice. If company A is less efficient that company B and therefore charges more for essentially the same products, you can go with company B instead. Doing the same thing with a government is much more involved.</p><p>For the above reasons, it is better in many cases to have things provided by multiple, competing organizations than by a government (or, indeed, another monopoly - the same reasoning applies). There will still be inefficiency, but, since you can choose your provider, providers have an incentive to curb their inefficiencies in order to be more competitive. I think that's the long version of what you've been saying, and I agree.</p><p>However, there is one key point, and that is that it's sometimes \_not\_ a good thing to be able to choose your provider and have providers reduce their inefficiencies. This is the case in many social programs. Presuming the social program has any merit at all, the population can be divided into two classes: those who would currently directly benefit from the program, and those who wouldn't.</p><p>E.g. if the program provided unemployment benefits, and I were unemployed, and you weren't, then, I would directly benefit, but you wouldn't. If we were free to choose, I might want the system that provided the maximum unemployment benefits, and you might want the system that provided the minimum. But that wouldn't work, because then the money for running the program would have to come from those who don't have it, while those who do have money wouldn't be contributing it.</p><p>To make the program work, it must be mandatory for those who have money to contribute to the program that provides money to those who need it. And that means you need the government, despite its tendency towards inefficiency. It's the difference between having a system that works inefficiently with government involvement, or a system that doesn't work at all. And what makes the former system inefficient is precisely the same thing that makes it work at all: the fact that participation is mandatory.</p><p>Long story short: if you can make it work while preserving freedom of choice, do so. It will preserve liberty and be more efficient. But in some cases, the only way to make it work is to take away that freedom. The same people can cry foul over inefficiencies in government and still advocate government programs: we need some government programs, but we still want things to be as efficient as possible.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>` ` And yet many of the same people who will cry foul over this will be first in line telling the government it is morally obligated to provide X social program or prop up Y industry " for the good of the country .
" Surely that is n't a colossal waste , wo n't go to lining the pockets of consultants , wo n't get dragged down by graft , wo n't go over budget estimations , et cetera .
''I think you 're conflating two issues there .
Allow me to explain.Your whole post is full of examples of government inefficiency .
They are good examples , and I am completely with you there .
Government is inefficient , and we know it.Of course , that does n't necessarily mean that there is no inefficiency outside of government .
And indeed , there is plenty .
However , there is a key difference between inefficiency in government and inefficiency outside of government , and that is that , outside of government , you have a choice .
If company A is less efficient that company B and therefore charges more for essentially the same products , you can go with company B instead .
Doing the same thing with a government is much more involved.For the above reasons , it is better in many cases to have things provided by multiple , competing organizations than by a government ( or , indeed , another monopoly - the same reasoning applies ) .
There will still be inefficiency , but , since you can choose your provider , providers have an incentive to curb their inefficiencies in order to be more competitive .
I think that 's the long version of what you 've been saying , and I agree.However , there is one key point , and that is that it 's sometimes \ _not \ _ a good thing to be able to choose your provider and have providers reduce their inefficiencies .
This is the case in many social programs .
Presuming the social program has any merit at all , the population can be divided into two classes : those who would currently directly benefit from the program , and those who would n't.E.g .
if the program provided unemployment benefits , and I were unemployed , and you were n't , then , I would directly benefit , but you would n't .
If we were free to choose , I might want the system that provided the maximum unemployment benefits , and you might want the system that provided the minimum .
But that would n't work , because then the money for running the program would have to come from those who do n't have it , while those who do have money would n't be contributing it.To make the program work , it must be mandatory for those who have money to contribute to the program that provides money to those who need it .
And that means you need the government , despite its tendency towards inefficiency .
It 's the difference between having a system that works inefficiently with government involvement , or a system that does n't work at all .
And what makes the former system inefficient is precisely the same thing that makes it work at all : the fact that participation is mandatory.Long story short : if you can make it work while preserving freedom of choice , do so .
It will preserve liberty and be more efficient .
But in some cases , the only way to make it work is to take away that freedom .
The same people can cry foul over inefficiencies in government and still advocate government programs : we need some government programs , but we still want things to be as efficient as possible .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>``And yet many of the same people who will cry foul over this will be first in line telling the government it is morally obligated to provide X social program or prop up Y industry "for the good of the country.
" Surely that isn't a colossal waste, won't go to lining the pockets of consultants, won't get dragged down by graft, won't go over budget estimations, et cetera.
''I think you're conflating two issues there.
Allow me to explain.Your whole post is full of examples of government inefficiency.
They are good examples, and I am completely with you there.
Government is inefficient, and we know it.Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean that there is no inefficiency outside of government.
And indeed, there is plenty.
However, there is a key difference between inefficiency in government and inefficiency outside of government, and that is that, outside of government, you have a choice.
If company A is less efficient that company B and therefore charges more for essentially the same products, you can go with company B instead.
Doing the same thing with a government is much more involved.For the above reasons, it is better in many cases to have things provided by multiple, competing organizations than by a government (or, indeed, another monopoly - the same reasoning applies).
There will still be inefficiency, but, since you can choose your provider, providers have an incentive to curb their inefficiencies in order to be more competitive.
I think that's the long version of what you've been saying, and I agree.However, there is one key point, and that is that it's sometimes \_not\_ a good thing to be able to choose your provider and have providers reduce their inefficiencies.
This is the case in many social programs.
Presuming the social program has any merit at all, the population can be divided into two classes: those who would currently directly benefit from the program, and those who wouldn't.E.g.
if the program provided unemployment benefits, and I were unemployed, and you weren't, then, I would directly benefit, but you wouldn't.
If we were free to choose, I might want the system that provided the maximum unemployment benefits, and you might want the system that provided the minimum.
But that wouldn't work, because then the money for running the program would have to come from those who don't have it, while those who do have money wouldn't be contributing it.To make the program work, it must be mandatory for those who have money to contribute to the program that provides money to those who need it.
And that means you need the government, despite its tendency towards inefficiency.
It's the difference between having a system that works inefficiently with government involvement, or a system that doesn't work at all.
And what makes the former system inefficient is precisely the same thing that makes it work at all: the fact that participation is mandatory.Long story short: if you can make it work while preserving freedom of choice, do so.
It will preserve liberty and be more efficient.
But in some cases, the only way to make it work is to take away that freedom.
The same people can cry foul over inefficiencies in government and still advocate government programs: we need some government programs, but we still want things to be as efficient as possible.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640518</id>
	<title>Re:Can You Say ...</title>
	<author>cgenman</author>
	<datestamp>1269712260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How much oversight did the consultants have into the system?  At this point, would it be possible to rescind payments for non-delivery, or give the consultants 6 months on complete on their dime or be blacklisted from all NYC / NY State contracts again?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How much oversight did the consultants have into the system ?
At this point , would it be possible to rescind payments for non-delivery , or give the consultants 6 months on complete on their dime or be blacklisted from all NYC / NY State contracts again ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How much oversight did the consultants have into the system?
At this point, would it be possible to rescind payments for non-delivery, or give the consultants 6 months on complete on their dime or be blacklisted from all NYC / NY State contracts again?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639232</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31641894</id>
	<title>That's not the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269721920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is an SAIC project.  SAIC is a large company and most likely has significant amounts of "overhead" to support.  Thus, you get very high billing rates, but that has no real relationship to the actual salaries these guys are making.</p><p>From the article:</p><p>"The actual amounts individual SAIC employees took home are most likely lower than their stated rates, since computer firms typically take a cut of each consultant's charges. Nonetheless, these are breathtaking numbers."</p><p>Which would be better put:</p><p>"So I don't know what these guys are REALLY making in their paychecks, but I bet that headline and these mugshots are really going to sell this story!"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is an SAIC project .
SAIC is a large company and most likely has significant amounts of " overhead " to support .
Thus , you get very high billing rates , but that has no real relationship to the actual salaries these guys are making.From the article : " The actual amounts individual SAIC employees took home are most likely lower than their stated rates , since computer firms typically take a cut of each consultant 's charges .
Nonetheless , these are breathtaking numbers .
" Which would be better put : " So I do n't know what these guys are REALLY making in their paychecks , but I bet that headline and these mugshots are really going to sell this story !
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is an SAIC project.
SAIC is a large company and most likely has significant amounts of "overhead" to support.
Thus, you get very high billing rates, but that has no real relationship to the actual salaries these guys are making.From the article:"The actual amounts individual SAIC employees took home are most likely lower than their stated rates, since computer firms typically take a cut of each consultant's charges.
Nonetheless, these are breathtaking numbers.
"Which would be better put:"So I don't know what these guys are REALLY making in their paychecks, but I bet that headline and these mugshots are really going to sell this story!
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639252</id>
	<title>$500k per year?</title>
	<author>nomso</author>
	<datestamp>1269703500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Where do I apply?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Where do I apply ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Where do I apply?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31650092</id>
	<title>Re:This is a *private* sector project</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269769320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What some fail to understand on the 'government project' is that  why it ends up costing so much is because the GOVT bureaucrats<br>keep continually changing the requirements.  I have seen this first hand on the CORE electronics program for Harris.... 7 years of continuous changing software and hardware requirements throughout the life cycle.  changes cause rework.. and then you have to do the reviews again etc.  It was just stupid.  Then... after 7 years... the government canceled the project just as they were starting to take delivery on something.... It was unbelievably wasteful.  So I agree with a previous poster that it is the GOVT management that are probably to blame.  Plus.. contracts should never be COST PLUS (unless it is a R&amp;D technology pushing type of project).<br>COST PLUS contracts are a euphemism "rob me blind"... but they can be justified because the powers that be in the government entity keep making huge design changes mid-way through the project.</p><p>Some of the design changes were justified.. however... most of them seemed to be on a whim because either they didnt do their homework beforehand... or they just thought it would be a good idea.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What some fail to understand on the 'government project ' is that why it ends up costing so much is because the GOVT bureaucratskeep continually changing the requirements .
I have seen this first hand on the CORE electronics program for Harris.... 7 years of continuous changing software and hardware requirements throughout the life cycle .
changes cause rework.. and then you have to do the reviews again etc .
It was just stupid .
Then... after 7 years... the government canceled the project just as they were starting to take delivery on something.... It was unbelievably wasteful .
So I agree with a previous poster that it is the GOVT management that are probably to blame .
Plus.. contracts should never be COST PLUS ( unless it is a R&amp;D technology pushing type of project ) .COST PLUS contracts are a euphemism " rob me blind " ... but they can be justified because the powers that be in the government entity keep making huge design changes mid-way through the project.Some of the design changes were justified.. however... most of them seemed to be on a whim because either they didnt do their homework beforehand... or they just thought it would be a good idea .
   </tokentext>
<sentencetext>What some fail to understand on the 'government project' is that  why it ends up costing so much is because the GOVT bureaucratskeep continually changing the requirements.
I have seen this first hand on the CORE electronics program for Harris.... 7 years of continuous changing software and hardware requirements throughout the life cycle.
changes cause rework.. and then you have to do the reviews again etc.
It was just stupid.
Then... after 7 years... the government canceled the project just as they were starting to take delivery on something.... It was unbelievably wasteful.
So I agree with a previous poster that it is the GOVT management that are probably to blame.
Plus.. contracts should never be COST PLUS (unless it is a R&amp;D technology pushing type of project).COST PLUS contracts are a euphemism "rob me blind"... but they can be justified because the powers that be in the government entity keep making huge design changes mid-way through the project.Some of the design changes were justified.. however... most of them seemed to be on a whim because either they didnt do their homework beforehand... or they just thought it would be a good idea.
   </sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639768</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31641916</id>
	<title>So the project manager is making $300 an hour?</title>
	<author>Greg\_D</author>
	<datestamp>1269722160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's not really THAT outlandish for an ERP system, but it most certainly is for a PM.  Normally your $250 and up guys are the ones with specialized abilities in certain fields that require a mix of technical and functional understanding.  When I was a recruiter, I once placed a consultant on a treasury project for a large agricultural company at a pay rate of $350 an hour, and his bill rate was over $500 an hour.</p><p>And that was AFTER the whole IT boom.  I know an SAP Human Resources consultant whose bill rate was over $1300 an hour during that period.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's not really THAT outlandish for an ERP system , but it most certainly is for a PM .
Normally your $ 250 and up guys are the ones with specialized abilities in certain fields that require a mix of technical and functional understanding .
When I was a recruiter , I once placed a consultant on a treasury project for a large agricultural company at a pay rate of $ 350 an hour , and his bill rate was over $ 500 an hour.And that was AFTER the whole IT boom .
I know an SAP Human Resources consultant whose bill rate was over $ 1300 an hour during that period .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's not really THAT outlandish for an ERP system, but it most certainly is for a PM.
Normally your $250 and up guys are the ones with specialized abilities in certain fields that require a mix of technical and functional understanding.
When I was a recruiter, I once placed a consultant on a treasury project for a large agricultural company at a pay rate of $350 an hour, and his bill rate was over $500 an hour.And that was AFTER the whole IT boom.
I know an SAP Human Resources consultant whose bill rate was over $1300 an hour during that period.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639352</id>
	<title>Problem = Managers</title>
	<author>magamiako1</author>
	<datestamp>1269704160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you RTFA, the people that are getting the highest salaries are "Project Managers". Generally these types of people don't know their ass from a hole in the ground and don't actually contribute to doing any work because they have no idea what it is they're doing. And these people are likely the reason the project isn't actually getting done. In fact, the people actually doing the grunt work on the project are likely making 10\% of the stated figures.<br><br>This sort of thing happens in many, many businesses. The difference is that many businesses aren't required to report those figures and even then they are under far less scrutiny. I assure you this is about par course for American business in general both public and private.<br><br>There are better ways to do things, but until we vastly change the corporate culture that everyone is used to operating under we aren't going to see more efficiencies. The reality is that it's not the "government" wasting money here because this is what everyone that goes into these projects expects to be doing. And this is generally something that scales with said project; so cheaper projects get cheaper prices on management but it is still disproportionately higher than those that are doing the actual work.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you RTFA , the people that are getting the highest salaries are " Project Managers " .
Generally these types of people do n't know their ass from a hole in the ground and do n't actually contribute to doing any work because they have no idea what it is they 're doing .
And these people are likely the reason the project is n't actually getting done .
In fact , the people actually doing the grunt work on the project are likely making 10 \ % of the stated figures.This sort of thing happens in many , many businesses .
The difference is that many businesses are n't required to report those figures and even then they are under far less scrutiny .
I assure you this is about par course for American business in general both public and private.There are better ways to do things , but until we vastly change the corporate culture that everyone is used to operating under we are n't going to see more efficiencies .
The reality is that it 's not the " government " wasting money here because this is what everyone that goes into these projects expects to be doing .
And this is generally something that scales with said project ; so cheaper projects get cheaper prices on management but it is still disproportionately higher than those that are doing the actual work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you RTFA, the people that are getting the highest salaries are "Project Managers".
Generally these types of people don't know their ass from a hole in the ground and don't actually contribute to doing any work because they have no idea what it is they're doing.
And these people are likely the reason the project isn't actually getting done.
In fact, the people actually doing the grunt work on the project are likely making 10\% of the stated figures.This sort of thing happens in many, many businesses.
The difference is that many businesses aren't required to report those figures and even then they are under far less scrutiny.
I assure you this is about par course for American business in general both public and private.There are better ways to do things, but until we vastly change the corporate culture that everyone is used to operating under we aren't going to see more efficiencies.
The reality is that it's not the "government" wasting money here because this is what everyone that goes into these projects expects to be doing.
And this is generally something that scales with said project; so cheaper projects get cheaper prices on management but it is still disproportionately higher than those that are doing the actual work.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639996</id>
	<title>I'll save them some money...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269709320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Open source payroll and time management system:</p><p><a href="http://www.timetrex.com/" title="timetrex.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.timetrex.com/</a> [timetrex.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Open source payroll and time management system : http : //www.timetrex.com/ [ timetrex.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Open source payroll and time management system:http://www.timetrex.com/ [timetrex.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639982</id>
	<title>Re:Cool..</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269709260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm willing to be underpaid...just give me less than a tenth of those salaries...I'll work and put out unworkable products for only $50,000 a year.  btw, the captcha for this one was, "insane."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm willing to be underpaid...just give me less than a tenth of those salaries...I 'll work and put out unworkable products for only $ 50,000 a year .
btw , the captcha for this one was , " insane .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm willing to be underpaid...just give me less than a tenth of those salaries...I'll work and put out unworkable products for only $50,000 a year.
btw, the captcha for this one was, "insane.
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639270</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640108</id>
	<title>Re:Corruption</title>
	<author>Capt. Skinny</author>
	<datestamp>1269710040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>No, we're just helpless and apathetic.</htmltext>
<tokenext>No , we 're just helpless and apathetic .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, we're just helpless and apathetic.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639800</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639914</id>
	<title>Re:This is a *private* sector project</title>
	<author>fuzzyfuzzyfungus</author>
	<datestamp>1269708720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>SAIC? No wonder things are going badly on a grand scale...<br> <br>

Those guys are <i>masters</i> of working the government outsourcing gravy train. At least those 500k a year developers who've failed to produce anything aren't members of a union, so it must be efficient, right?</htmltext>
<tokenext>SAIC ?
No wonder things are going badly on a grand scale.. . Those guys are masters of working the government outsourcing gravy train .
At least those 500k a year developers who 've failed to produce anything are n't members of a union , so it must be efficient , right ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>SAIC?
No wonder things are going badly on a grand scale... 

Those guys are masters of working the government outsourcing gravy train.
At least those 500k a year developers who've failed to produce anything aren't members of a union, so it must be efficient, right?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639768</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31642438</id>
	<title>Re:This is a *private* sector project</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269683040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>SAIC is a spooked up company from way back... they have their greedy, dirty, immoral fingers in MANY of unka sam's pies...  *especially* 'black' projects which have no transparency or real oversight; they are used to gouging the gummint/public as a matter of course...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>SAIC is a spooked up company from way back... they have their greedy , dirty , immoral fingers in MANY of unka sam 's pies... * especially * 'black ' projects which have no transparency or real oversight ; they are used to gouging the gummint/public as a matter of course.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>SAIC is a spooked up company from way back... they have their greedy, dirty, immoral fingers in MANY of unka sam's pies...  *especially* 'black' projects which have no transparency or real oversight; they are used to gouging the gummint/public as a matter of course...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639768</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639454</id>
	<title>Re:Cool..</title>
	<author>wvmarle</author>
	<datestamp>1269705000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, imagining being one of those consultants, I would make sure this project would never finish! Obviously the longer it takes the more you make off of it. This is a recipe for disaster - and internal sabotage.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , imagining being one of those consultants , I would make sure this project would never finish !
Obviously the longer it takes the more you make off of it .
This is a recipe for disaster - and internal sabotage .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, imagining being one of those consultants, I would make sure this project would never finish!
Obviously the longer it takes the more you make off of it.
This is a recipe for disaster - and internal sabotage.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639270</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31641152</id>
	<title>Re:Government Project Cost Overruns?</title>
	<author>Dragonslicer</author>
	<datestamp>1269716340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>You <b>do</b> know what party controls New York, right?</p></div><p>Well, Michael Bloomberg is still mayor, so I think it depends on the day of the week.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You do know what party controls New York , right ? Well , Michael Bloomberg is still mayor , so I think it depends on the day of the week .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You do know what party controls New York, right?Well, Michael Bloomberg is still mayor, so I think it depends on the day of the week.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639452</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31641070</id>
	<title>Re:Government Project Cost Overruns?</title>
	<author>Ephemeriis</author>
	<datestamp>1269715800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I have a friend who was a teacher in California for a year. She was laid off and promptly given 2/3rds her previous salary in unemployment benefits. Pretty good for keeping the same employer and just not working anymore. If I tried that it would result in a 100\% pay cut.</p> </div><p>Is there some reason why you would not be eligible for unemployment benefits?</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Governments waste money. Your local government does it. Your state government. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head (/sarcasm) but I'm pretty sure the federal government does it, too.</p> </div><p>Yes, it's a government that's footing the bill here...  But it's a private company that's wasting the money.  Sure, they should have been fired and replaced...  But that's more of an oversight thing than a waste of money thing, right?</p><p>The fact of the matter is that wasting money isn't limited to governments.  Private companies waste money all the freaking time.</p><p>My current favorite is a local supplier of EMR software and the accompanying hardware.  One of the doctors we support spent about $30,000 for a server, software, and some workstations.  That supplier then turned around and sent the doctor about $5,000 worth of junk for Christmas as a "thank you."  Seems to me that they could have either taken $5,000 off the initial price...  Or put it towards making the software better.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have a friend who was a teacher in California for a year .
She was laid off and promptly given 2/3rds her previous salary in unemployment benefits .
Pretty good for keeping the same employer and just not working anymore .
If I tried that it would result in a 100 \ % pay cut .
Is there some reason why you would not be eligible for unemployment benefits ? Governments waste money .
Your local government does it .
Your state government .
I ca n't think of any examples off the top of my head ( /sarcasm ) but I 'm pretty sure the federal government does it , too .
Yes , it 's a government that 's footing the bill here... But it 's a private company that 's wasting the money .
Sure , they should have been fired and replaced... But that 's more of an oversight thing than a waste of money thing , right ? The fact of the matter is that wasting money is n't limited to governments .
Private companies waste money all the freaking time.My current favorite is a local supplier of EMR software and the accompanying hardware .
One of the doctors we support spent about $ 30,000 for a server , software , and some workstations .
That supplier then turned around and sent the doctor about $ 5,000 worth of junk for Christmas as a " thank you .
" Seems to me that they could have either taken $ 5,000 off the initial price... Or put it towards making the software better .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have a friend who was a teacher in California for a year.
She was laid off and promptly given 2/3rds her previous salary in unemployment benefits.
Pretty good for keeping the same employer and just not working anymore.
If I tried that it would result in a 100\% pay cut.
Is there some reason why you would not be eligible for unemployment benefits?Governments waste money.
Your local government does it.
Your state government.
I can't think of any examples off the top of my head (/sarcasm) but I'm pretty sure the federal government does it, too.
Yes, it's a government that's footing the bill here...  But it's a private company that's wasting the money.
Sure, they should have been fired and replaced...  But that's more of an oversight thing than a waste of money thing, right?The fact of the matter is that wasting money isn't limited to governments.
Private companies waste money all the freaking time.My current favorite is a local supplier of EMR software and the accompanying hardware.
One of the doctors we support spent about $30,000 for a server, software, and some workstations.
That supplier then turned around and sent the doctor about $5,000 worth of junk for Christmas as a "thank you.
"  Seems to me that they could have either taken $5,000 off the initial price...  Or put it towards making the software better.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640622</id>
	<title>Re:This is a *private* sector project</title>
	<author>RandomUsername99</author>
	<datestamp>1269712740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's not really how it works. The separation isn't that black and white.</p><p>The first sentence in the article: "The city is paying some 230 "consultants" an average salary of $400,000 a year for a computer project that is seven years behind schedule and vastly over budget."</p><p>I'm willing to bet that the person who wrote the article is confusing what the company charges for their services, and what they actually receive in payroll. I'd assume it's probably a pretty average tech salary. Look at the guys in those pictures. Do they look like they make almost 500k per year?</p><p>The city probably *is* paying for their time, it's just not in the form of payroll. I worked on a support team for a large software/hardware product that was deployed in large organizations by teams of people (usually for about a million bucks, a bit smaller than this project). These consultants are usually professional services contractors that were hired by the company to send out on projects to deploy and customize installations and occasionally take care of problems that tech support can't handle or can't handle as quickly as the company desires. During the initial sales discussion about the package, the company says that they need X number of contractors with X specialty working X hours under X project managers for X amount of time to complete the project. The organization that's buying the product then essentially hires these people through the company (almost like hiring someone through a temp service) and the company takes the majority of what the city pays to have these guys come in and work. Many of our consultants were billing around a million dollars a year to various customers for their services but they themselves were making around 100k.</p><p>At any time the city can choose to stop paying for these professional services... but then you've blown all of this cash on a project and have absolutely nothing to show for it. There are also lots of 3rd party professional services companies out there who specialize in coming in and cleaning up larger companies project disasters and charging less for their consultants. It's always a delicate balance in large projects. It's often hard to tell in advance if you're going to be dropping a significant initial investment with someone who won't be able to finish the project, or will intentionally delay the project to run up a huge services bill.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's not really how it works .
The separation is n't that black and white.The first sentence in the article : " The city is paying some 230 " consultants " an average salary of $ 400,000 a year for a computer project that is seven years behind schedule and vastly over budget .
" I 'm willing to bet that the person who wrote the article is confusing what the company charges for their services , and what they actually receive in payroll .
I 'd assume it 's probably a pretty average tech salary .
Look at the guys in those pictures .
Do they look like they make almost 500k per year ? The city probably * is * paying for their time , it 's just not in the form of payroll .
I worked on a support team for a large software/hardware product that was deployed in large organizations by teams of people ( usually for about a million bucks , a bit smaller than this project ) .
These consultants are usually professional services contractors that were hired by the company to send out on projects to deploy and customize installations and occasionally take care of problems that tech support ca n't handle or ca n't handle as quickly as the company desires .
During the initial sales discussion about the package , the company says that they need X number of contractors with X specialty working X hours under X project managers for X amount of time to complete the project .
The organization that 's buying the product then essentially hires these people through the company ( almost like hiring someone through a temp service ) and the company takes the majority of what the city pays to have these guys come in and work .
Many of our consultants were billing around a million dollars a year to various customers for their services but they themselves were making around 100k.At any time the city can choose to stop paying for these professional services... but then you 've blown all of this cash on a project and have absolutely nothing to show for it .
There are also lots of 3rd party professional services companies out there who specialize in coming in and cleaning up larger companies project disasters and charging less for their consultants .
It 's always a delicate balance in large projects .
It 's often hard to tell in advance if you 're going to be dropping a significant initial investment with someone who wo n't be able to finish the project , or will intentionally delay the project to run up a huge services bill .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's not really how it works.
The separation isn't that black and white.The first sentence in the article: "The city is paying some 230 "consultants" an average salary of $400,000 a year for a computer project that is seven years behind schedule and vastly over budget.
"I'm willing to bet that the person who wrote the article is confusing what the company charges for their services, and what they actually receive in payroll.
I'd assume it's probably a pretty average tech salary.
Look at the guys in those pictures.
Do they look like they make almost 500k per year?The city probably *is* paying for their time, it's just not in the form of payroll.
I worked on a support team for a large software/hardware product that was deployed in large organizations by teams of people (usually for about a million bucks, a bit smaller than this project).
These consultants are usually professional services contractors that were hired by the company to send out on projects to deploy and customize installations and occasionally take care of problems that tech support can't handle or can't handle as quickly as the company desires.
During the initial sales discussion about the package, the company says that they need X number of contractors with X specialty working X hours under X project managers for X amount of time to complete the project.
The organization that's buying the product then essentially hires these people through the company (almost like hiring someone through a temp service) and the company takes the majority of what the city pays to have these guys come in and work.
Many of our consultants were billing around a million dollars a year to various customers for their services but they themselves were making around 100k.At any time the city can choose to stop paying for these professional services... but then you've blown all of this cash on a project and have absolutely nothing to show for it.
There are also lots of 3rd party professional services companies out there who specialize in coming in and cleaning up larger companies project disasters and charging less for their consultants.
It's always a delicate balance in large projects.
It's often hard to tell in advance if you're going to be dropping a significant initial investment with someone who won't be able to finish the project, or will intentionally delay the project to run up a huge services bill.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639768</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640024</id>
	<title>Re:Government Project Cost Overruns?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269709500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Teacher unions are evil. End of story.</p></div><p>Huh? What has that got to do with what the original poster said?</p><p><div class="quote"><p>You do know what party controls New York, right?</p></div><p>Double huh? How did party politics get involved here? It looks like you are some political Eliza-bot that looks for keywords and spews out canned clich&#233;s. Actually, that would explain a lot about mainstream political debate.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Teacher unions are evil .
End of story.Huh ?
What has that got to do with what the original poster said ? You do know what party controls New York , right ? Double huh ?
How did party politics get involved here ?
It looks like you are some political Eliza-bot that looks for keywords and spews out canned clich   s .
Actually , that would explain a lot about mainstream political debate .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Teacher unions are evil.
End of story.Huh?
What has that got to do with what the original poster said?You do know what party controls New York, right?Double huh?
How did party politics get involved here?
It looks like you are some political Eliza-bot that looks for keywords and spews out canned clichés.
Actually, that would explain a lot about mainstream political debate.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639452</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31663584</id>
	<title>New system</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269863640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How much money was the new system supposed to save, by  catching time-card fraud, etc.?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How much money was the new system supposed to save , by catching time-card fraud , etc .
?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How much money was the new system supposed to save, by  catching time-card fraud, etc.
?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31641528</id>
	<title>Re:Can You Say ...</title>
	<author>UnknowingFool</author>
	<datestamp>1269719040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>As someone who has been on a project like this (but wasn't paid nearly as much), projects spiral out of control because (1) the client doesn't know what exactly they want and keep changing the scope or (2) the clients knows exactly what they want in every possible imagined scenario whether or not the scenario is likely to occur thus complicating the design.  If a client is #1 then an unscrupulous company can take them to the cleaners.</htmltext>
<tokenext>As someone who has been on a project like this ( but was n't paid nearly as much ) , projects spiral out of control because ( 1 ) the client does n't know what exactly they want and keep changing the scope or ( 2 ) the clients knows exactly what they want in every possible imagined scenario whether or not the scenario is likely to occur thus complicating the design .
If a client is # 1 then an unscrupulous company can take them to the cleaners .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As someone who has been on a project like this (but wasn't paid nearly as much), projects spiral out of control because (1) the client doesn't know what exactly they want and keep changing the scope or (2) the clients knows exactly what they want in every possible imagined scenario whether or not the scenario is likely to occur thus complicating the design.
If a client is #1 then an unscrupulous company can take them to the cleaners.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639232</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639930</id>
	<title>Re:Government Project Cost Overruns?</title>
	<author>phantomfive</author>
	<datestamp>1269708900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Aaand it's a good time to mention that government employees <a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704281204575003101210295246.html" title="wsj.com">make 30\% more than non-government employees,</a> [wsj.com] and that doesn't include benefits (if you want to get around the paywall, <a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&amp;safe=off&amp;client=safari&amp;rls=en&amp;q=http\%3A\%2F\%2Fonline.wsj.com\%2Farticle\%2FSB10001424052748704281204575003101210295246.html&amp;aq=f&amp;aqi=&amp;aql=&amp;oq=&amp;gs\_rfai=" title="google.com">check out this link</a> [google.com]).  This shows that in New York at least, the pay isn't spread around equally, some people are getting paid far more than their private-sector counterparts, so presumably others are getting paid less.<br> <br>
The article mentions that in most states with deficits, if pay were more reasonable, it would easily close the deficit in most states that have them.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Aaand it 's a good time to mention that government employees make 30 \ % more than non-government employees , [ wsj.com ] and that does n't include benefits ( if you want to get around the paywall , check out this link [ google.com ] ) .
This shows that in New York at least , the pay is n't spread around equally , some people are getting paid far more than their private-sector counterparts , so presumably others are getting paid less .
The article mentions that in most states with deficits , if pay were more reasonable , it would easily close the deficit in most states that have them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Aaand it's a good time to mention that government employees make 30\% more than non-government employees, [wsj.com] and that doesn't include benefits (if you want to get around the paywall, check out this link [google.com]).
This shows that in New York at least, the pay isn't spread around equally, some people are getting paid far more than their private-sector counterparts, so presumably others are getting paid less.
The article mentions that in most states with deficits, if pay were more reasonable, it would easily close the deficit in most states that have them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639248</id>
	<title>Cheaper if everybody steals an hour a day</title>
	<author>nospam007</author>
	<datestamp>1269703500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Isn't it?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is n't it ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Isn't it?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639668</id>
	<title>Re:Cool..</title>
	<author>Ja'Achan</author>
	<datestamp>1269706800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><a href="http://despair.com/consulting.html" title="despair.com" rel="nofollow">If you're not a part of the solution, there's good money to be made in prolonging the problem.</a> [despair.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you 're not a part of the solution , there 's good money to be made in prolonging the problem .
[ despair.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you're not a part of the solution, there's good money to be made in prolonging the problem.
[despair.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639454</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640112</id>
	<title>Re:We need more of these articles</title>
	<author>StormReaver</author>
	<datestamp>1269710040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>People need to take charge of elections and actively support smaller and more responsive government.</p></div><p>If only we had candidates that ran on a smaller and more responsive government without being sold out to special interest groups.  Democrats are sold out to the copyright lobbies, and Republicans are sold out to the Christian fundamentalists.  Independents rarely stand a chance.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>People need to take charge of elections and actively support smaller and more responsive government.If only we had candidates that ran on a smaller and more responsive government without being sold out to special interest groups .
Democrats are sold out to the copyright lobbies , and Republicans are sold out to the Christian fundamentalists .
Independents rarely stand a chance .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>People need to take charge of elections and actively support smaller and more responsive government.If only we had candidates that ran on a smaller and more responsive government without being sold out to special interest groups.
Democrats are sold out to the copyright lobbies, and Republicans are sold out to the Christian fundamentalists.
Independents rarely stand a chance.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639334</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640328</id>
	<title>Re:Government Project Cost Overruns?</title>
	<author>FooAtWFU</author>
	<datestamp>1269711180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>It's not just the teacher's unions. <a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704281204575003101210295246.html?KEYWORDS=the+government+pay+boom" title="wsj.com">The Wall Street Journal details it:</a> [wsj.com]<blockquote><div><p>Let's walk through the math. In 2008 almost half of all state and local government expenditures, or an estimated $1.1 trillion, went toward the pay and benefits of public workers. According to the BLS, in 2009 the average state or local public employee received $39.66 in total compensation per hour versus $27.42 for private workers. This means that for every $1 in pay and benefits a private employee earned, a state or local government worker received $1.45.
<br> <br>
The BLS study breaks down where that 45\% premium comes from. It turns out that public employees earn salaries that are about one-third higher on average than what is provided to private workers per hour worked. But the real windfall for government workers is in benefits. Those are 70\% higher than what standard private employers offer, as shown in the nearby table. Government health benefits are twice as generous as what workers employed by private employees earn. By the way, nearly this entire benefits gap is accounted for by unionized public employees. Nonunion public employees are paid roughly what private workers receive.</p></div>
</blockquote></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's not just the teacher 's unions .
The Wall Street Journal details it : [ wsj.com ] Let 's walk through the math .
In 2008 almost half of all state and local government expenditures , or an estimated $ 1.1 trillion , went toward the pay and benefits of public workers .
According to the BLS , in 2009 the average state or local public employee received $ 39.66 in total compensation per hour versus $ 27.42 for private workers .
This means that for every $ 1 in pay and benefits a private employee earned , a state or local government worker received $ 1.45 .
The BLS study breaks down where that 45 \ % premium comes from .
It turns out that public employees earn salaries that are about one-third higher on average than what is provided to private workers per hour worked .
But the real windfall for government workers is in benefits .
Those are 70 \ % higher than what standard private employers offer , as shown in the nearby table .
Government health benefits are twice as generous as what workers employed by private employees earn .
By the way , nearly this entire benefits gap is accounted for by unionized public employees .
Nonunion public employees are paid roughly what private workers receive .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's not just the teacher's unions.
The Wall Street Journal details it: [wsj.com]Let's walk through the math.
In 2008 almost half of all state and local government expenditures, or an estimated $1.1 trillion, went toward the pay and benefits of public workers.
According to the BLS, in 2009 the average state or local public employee received $39.66 in total compensation per hour versus $27.42 for private workers.
This means that for every $1 in pay and benefits a private employee earned, a state or local government worker received $1.45.
The BLS study breaks down where that 45\% premium comes from.
It turns out that public employees earn salaries that are about one-third higher on average than what is provided to private workers per hour worked.
But the real windfall for government workers is in benefits.
Those are 70\% higher than what standard private employers offer, as shown in the nearby table.
Government health benefits are twice as generous as what workers employed by private employees earn.
By the way, nearly this entire benefits gap is accounted for by unionized public employees.
Nonunion public employees are paid roughly what private workers receive.

	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639452</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639334</id>
	<title>We need more of these articles</title>
	<author>VernorVinge</author>
	<datestamp>1269704040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>This defense contractor SAIC is just a symptom of the special interests that are running this country.  Multiple it by 1,000,000 and you understand why our country is going bankrupt.  The nature of our DOE, NASA, and DOD budgets allow for this type of uncontrolled spending.  People need to take charge of elections and actively support smaller and more responsive government.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This defense contractor SAIC is just a symptom of the special interests that are running this country .
Multiple it by 1,000,000 and you understand why our country is going bankrupt .
The nature of our DOE , NASA , and DOD budgets allow for this type of uncontrolled spending .
People need to take charge of elections and actively support smaller and more responsive government .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This defense contractor SAIC is just a symptom of the special interests that are running this country.
Multiple it by 1,000,000 and you understand why our country is going bankrupt.
The nature of our DOE, NASA, and DOD budgets allow for this type of uncontrolled spending.
People need to take charge of elections and actively support smaller and more responsive government.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31641138</id>
	<title>Another view</title>
	<author>sigmabody</author>
	<datestamp>1269716220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm sure there's a good amount of corruption and waste going on here, but that's pretty typical for government programs; and it seems like the financial incentives also support it in this case. However, just cause it's not the popular opinion, another thought...</p><p>As someone in the software industry, it's <i>exceedingly</i> common to have projects where the person specifying the requirements has no concept of the actual work involved, and/or there's serious feature creep, and/or there's no consideration for the costs of maintenance and modifications when the code is being designed. All of these contribute to projects which, on their face, would appear to cost much less, actually end up costing significantly more.</p><p>Most people who are not in the software industry (and some people who are) look at projects as commodities, which take a certain amount of time/money depending on the scope of work, and ignore the internal workings. That's just not the way the real world works, especially when incompetence and beuracracy are present, regardless of the skill and efforts of the people actually trying to produce a good product.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm sure there 's a good amount of corruption and waste going on here , but that 's pretty typical for government programs ; and it seems like the financial incentives also support it in this case .
However , just cause it 's not the popular opinion , another thought...As someone in the software industry , it 's exceedingly common to have projects where the person specifying the requirements has no concept of the actual work involved , and/or there 's serious feature creep , and/or there 's no consideration for the costs of maintenance and modifications when the code is being designed .
All of these contribute to projects which , on their face , would appear to cost much less , actually end up costing significantly more.Most people who are not in the software industry ( and some people who are ) look at projects as commodities , which take a certain amount of time/money depending on the scope of work , and ignore the internal workings .
That 's just not the way the real world works , especially when incompetence and beuracracy are present , regardless of the skill and efforts of the people actually trying to produce a good product .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm sure there's a good amount of corruption and waste going on here, but that's pretty typical for government programs; and it seems like the financial incentives also support it in this case.
However, just cause it's not the popular opinion, another thought...As someone in the software industry, it's exceedingly common to have projects where the person specifying the requirements has no concept of the actual work involved, and/or there's serious feature creep, and/or there's no consideration for the costs of maintenance and modifications when the code is being designed.
All of these contribute to projects which, on their face, would appear to cost much less, actually end up costing significantly more.Most people who are not in the software industry (and some people who are) look at projects as commodities, which take a certain amount of time/money depending on the scope of work, and ignore the internal workings.
That's just not the way the real world works, especially when incompetence and beuracracy are present, regardless of the skill and efforts of the people actually trying to produce a good product.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639770</id>
	<title>Re:Government Project Cost Overruns?</title>
	<author>Scrameustache</author>
	<datestamp>1269707700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I have a friend who was a teacher in California for a year.  She was laid off and promptly given 2/3rds her previous salary in unemployment benefits.  Pretty good for keeping the same employer and just not working anymore.  If I tried that it would result in a 100\% pay cut.</p></div><p>If you tried it you'd be quitting, not laid off. Try to understand the difference.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have a friend who was a teacher in California for a year .
She was laid off and promptly given 2/3rds her previous salary in unemployment benefits .
Pretty good for keeping the same employer and just not working anymore .
If I tried that it would result in a 100 \ % pay cut.If you tried it you 'd be quitting , not laid off .
Try to understand the difference .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have a friend who was a teacher in California for a year.
She was laid off and promptly given 2/3rds her previous salary in unemployment benefits.
Pretty good for keeping the same employer and just not working anymore.
If I tried that it would result in a 100\% pay cut.If you tried it you'd be quitting, not laid off.
Try to understand the difference.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31639266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31642008</id>
	<title>Irony</title>
	<author>Alaren</author>
	<datestamp>1269722640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's funny how simply pointing out the obvious inspires people to assume you are criticizing <i>their</i> position on the matter.

</p><p>FWIW:

</p><p>From a practical standpoint, I don't get meaningful unemployment benefits because I live in Arizona, where unemployment benefits are nominal at best.

</p><p>But I personally appreciate the irony of someone who <i>is working for the government</i> continuing to collect a non-trivial portion of their salary from the same revenue stream.  When the government's "safety net" is filling up with people from corporate America, they're swapping private support for public support.  When the government's "safety net" for the unemployed is filling up with people who were until recently <i>employed by the state</i>, I have to wonder at the sanity of the layoff process.  In the case I mentioned, California is saving 1/3 of a teacher's salary by eliminating <i>one whole teacher</i>.

</p><p>Of course a detailed analysis of the situation would show that union power and legislative spending rules and state hiring practices and the unemployment lobby all have an influence of why this happened the way it did.  But all I have observed to this point is that, whatever the reason, governments waste a lot of money, and anyone who is surprised by the article hasn't been paying attention.

</p><p>But then, some folks prefer to live life that way...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's funny how simply pointing out the obvious inspires people to assume you are criticizing their position on the matter .
FWIW : From a practical standpoint , I do n't get meaningful unemployment benefits because I live in Arizona , where unemployment benefits are nominal at best .
But I personally appreciate the irony of someone who is working for the government continuing to collect a non-trivial portion of their salary from the same revenue stream .
When the government 's " safety net " is filling up with people from corporate America , they 're swapping private support for public support .
When the government 's " safety net " for the unemployed is filling up with people who were until recently employed by the state , I have to wonder at the sanity of the layoff process .
In the case I mentioned , California is saving 1/3 of a teacher 's salary by eliminating one whole teacher .
Of course a detailed analysis of the situation would show that union power and legislative spending rules and state hiring practices and the unemployment lobby all have an influence of why this happened the way it did .
But all I have observed to this point is that , whatever the reason , governments waste a lot of money , and anyone who is surprised by the article has n't been paying attention .
But then , some folks prefer to live life that way.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's funny how simply pointing out the obvious inspires people to assume you are criticizing their position on the matter.
FWIW:

From a practical standpoint, I don't get meaningful unemployment benefits because I live in Arizona, where unemployment benefits are nominal at best.
But I personally appreciate the irony of someone who is working for the government continuing to collect a non-trivial portion of their salary from the same revenue stream.
When the government's "safety net" is filling up with people from corporate America, they're swapping private support for public support.
When the government's "safety net" for the unemployed is filling up with people who were until recently employed by the state, I have to wonder at the sanity of the layoff process.
In the case I mentioned, California is saving 1/3 of a teacher's salary by eliminating one whole teacher.
Of course a detailed analysis of the situation would show that union power and legislative spending rules and state hiring practices and the unemployment lobby all have an influence of why this happened the way it did.
But all I have observed to this point is that, whatever the reason, governments waste a lot of money, and anyone who is surprised by the article hasn't been paying attention.
But then, some folks prefer to live life that way...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_27_1228219.31640036</parent>
</comment>
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_03_27_1228219_2</id>
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