<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_03_20_1933241</id>
	<title>Memorizing Language / Spelling Techniques?</title>
	<author>timothy</author>
	<datestamp>1269073200000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>NotesSensei writes <i>"My kids are learning Chinese in school. While the grammar is drop-dead simple, writing is a challenge since there is no relation between sound and shape of the characters. I would like to know any good techniques (using technology or not) to help memorize large amounts of information, especially Chinese characters. Most of the stuff I Googled only helps on learning speaking."</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>NotesSensei writes " My kids are learning Chinese in school .
While the grammar is drop-dead simple , writing is a challenge since there is no relation between sound and shape of the characters .
I would like to know any good techniques ( using technology or not ) to help memorize large amounts of information , especially Chinese characters .
Most of the stuff I Googled only helps on learning speaking .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>NotesSensei writes "My kids are learning Chinese in school.
While the grammar is drop-dead simple, writing is a challenge since there is no relation between sound and shape of the characters.
I would like to know any good techniques (using technology or not) to help memorize large amounts of information, especially Chinese characters.
Most of the stuff I Googled only helps on learning speaking.
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552502</id>
	<title>Tony Buzan and Daniel Tennet Memetic techniques</title>
	<author>lkcl</author>
	<datestamp>1269082680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>one of the key reasons why the chinese don't need a large intelligence agency is because their entire population is actually their intelligence agency, having been trained from a very young age to memorise vast amounts of information - for example, the 10,000 or so chinese characters.</p><p>tony buzan's memetic learning techniques were the first popularly re-published discovery of the greek "mnemonic" memorisation techniques, and he adapted them to get you to focus on the use of the five senses and "familiar" or powerful emotive things, such as "home" or "naked person" or "funny picture" as "hooks" on which to hang the sequence to memorise.</p><p>the use of such "hooks" was well-known in medieval times.  if you look closely at the top and bottom of the bayeux tapestry, there's a continuous but very small row of naked people in various sexual poses and performing various acts.  the idea is that if you want to memorise the battle of hastings, and what happened, you get yourself all worked up "wha-heey!!" and \_then\_ you look at the pictures of the battle, and the pictures sink in.</p><p>daniel tennet, aka "brainman" has also developed a similar sort of technique, focussing specifically on helping people to memorise languages.  daniel is approaching this from a different angle from tony buzan, however: optimising the actual language learning process.</p><p>tony's technique of "hooking" first gets you to associate numbers with familiar or exciting things.  for example, the number 1 could be "red post box".  the number 2 looks like a swan. 4 a sail-boat etc. etc.  but you can equally as well use what works best for you (kinesthetics) - smells, movements, touch etc.  it's \_entirely\_ up to you to use the right "hooks" which are appropriate for \_you\_.</p><p>so, you now have your "hooks".  to memorise things by numbers, let's say the number sequence 412, you imagine a sail-boat on a lake, and it goes past a red postbox, and there's a huuuge white swan sitting on top of it.  voila, you have just memorised the sequence 412.  this technique of picture/thought association gives you the ability to memorise absolutely huge sequences which you otherwise thought you were incapable of.</p><p>so, if you were to use tony's technique, you would look at the character in one of two ways:</p><p>1) see what the picture reminds you of (for example, tree is blindingly obvious: it looks like a tree) and then "hook" that in, in some imaginative way, with the actual object (as other people have suggested here)</p><p>2) decompile the character by brush-strokes, both the sequence of the strokes (which is critically important for chinese calligraphy) and the direction, length and position, and assign each stroke's direction and position a numerical (or other sequence).  you then cross-reference that numerical sequence against the "hooks".  you also cross-reference the actual meaning at the beginning of the sequence, again in some imaginative way.</p><p>by recalling the pictures / hooks, one after the other, you can turn them back into numbers.  you then turn the numbers back into brush strokes: voila, you have your chinese character.</p><p>it's a lot of initial work, setting up the "hooks" that are appropriate and creating the mnemonic interpretation, but if you're serious, you'll do it.</p><p>all that having been said: it would be much much easier to do sanskrit.  if you look closely at the written form of sanskrit, you'll notice that the actual written language - the brush strokes - are a \_phonetic key\_ to the pronounciation!  a vertical line means "plosive" (as in - you're going to close your mouth in some fashion).  a horizontal line means "make your voice-box resonate".  a slash on top going top-left to bottom-right means "close mouth" and a slash on top going bottom-left to top-right means "open mouth", thus you get "taaah" and "aaahht" respectively when combined with the horizontal and vertical lines.  various curly-bits mean "do different things with tongue" and thus you get "kuhh", "puhh", "tuhh", "buhh" or "aabh", "aaakh", "aahhp" if the dia</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>one of the key reasons why the chinese do n't need a large intelligence agency is because their entire population is actually their intelligence agency , having been trained from a very young age to memorise vast amounts of information - for example , the 10,000 or so chinese characters.tony buzan 's memetic learning techniques were the first popularly re-published discovery of the greek " mnemonic " memorisation techniques , and he adapted them to get you to focus on the use of the five senses and " familiar " or powerful emotive things , such as " home " or " naked person " or " funny picture " as " hooks " on which to hang the sequence to memorise.the use of such " hooks " was well-known in medieval times .
if you look closely at the top and bottom of the bayeux tapestry , there 's a continuous but very small row of naked people in various sexual poses and performing various acts .
the idea is that if you want to memorise the battle of hastings , and what happened , you get yourself all worked up " wha-heey ! !
" and \ _then \ _ you look at the pictures of the battle , and the pictures sink in.daniel tennet , aka " brainman " has also developed a similar sort of technique , focussing specifically on helping people to memorise languages .
daniel is approaching this from a different angle from tony buzan , however : optimising the actual language learning process.tony 's technique of " hooking " first gets you to associate numbers with familiar or exciting things .
for example , the number 1 could be " red post box " .
the number 2 looks like a swan .
4 a sail-boat etc .
etc. but you can equally as well use what works best for you ( kinesthetics ) - smells , movements , touch etc .
it 's \ _entirely \ _ up to you to use the right " hooks " which are appropriate for \ _you \ _.so , you now have your " hooks " .
to memorise things by numbers , let 's say the number sequence 412 , you imagine a sail-boat on a lake , and it goes past a red postbox , and there 's a huuuge white swan sitting on top of it .
voila , you have just memorised the sequence 412. this technique of picture/thought association gives you the ability to memorise absolutely huge sequences which you otherwise thought you were incapable of.so , if you were to use tony 's technique , you would look at the character in one of two ways : 1 ) see what the picture reminds you of ( for example , tree is blindingly obvious : it looks like a tree ) and then " hook " that in , in some imaginative way , with the actual object ( as other people have suggested here ) 2 ) decompile the character by brush-strokes , both the sequence of the strokes ( which is critically important for chinese calligraphy ) and the direction , length and position , and assign each stroke 's direction and position a numerical ( or other sequence ) .
you then cross-reference that numerical sequence against the " hooks " .
you also cross-reference the actual meaning at the beginning of the sequence , again in some imaginative way.by recalling the pictures / hooks , one after the other , you can turn them back into numbers .
you then turn the numbers back into brush strokes : voila , you have your chinese character.it 's a lot of initial work , setting up the " hooks " that are appropriate and creating the mnemonic interpretation , but if you 're serious , you 'll do it.all that having been said : it would be much much easier to do sanskrit .
if you look closely at the written form of sanskrit , you 'll notice that the actual written language - the brush strokes - are a \ _phonetic key \ _ to the pronounciation !
a vertical line means " plosive " ( as in - you 're going to close your mouth in some fashion ) .
a horizontal line means " make your voice-box resonate " .
a slash on top going top-left to bottom-right means " close mouth " and a slash on top going bottom-left to top-right means " open mouth " , thus you get " taaah " and " aaahht " respectively when combined with the horizontal and vertical lines .
various curly-bits mean " do different things with tongue " and thus you get " kuhh " , " puhh " , " tuhh " , " buhh " or " aabh " , " aaakh " , " aahhp " if the dia</tokentext>
<sentencetext>one of the key reasons why the chinese don't need a large intelligence agency is because their entire population is actually their intelligence agency, having been trained from a very young age to memorise vast amounts of information - for example, the 10,000 or so chinese characters.tony buzan's memetic learning techniques were the first popularly re-published discovery of the greek "mnemonic" memorisation techniques, and he adapted them to get you to focus on the use of the five senses and "familiar" or powerful emotive things, such as "home" or "naked person" or "funny picture" as "hooks" on which to hang the sequence to memorise.the use of such "hooks" was well-known in medieval times.
if you look closely at the top and bottom of the bayeux tapestry, there's a continuous but very small row of naked people in various sexual poses and performing various acts.
the idea is that if you want to memorise the battle of hastings, and what happened, you get yourself all worked up "wha-heey!!
" and \_then\_ you look at the pictures of the battle, and the pictures sink in.daniel tennet, aka "brainman" has also developed a similar sort of technique, focussing specifically on helping people to memorise languages.
daniel is approaching this from a different angle from tony buzan, however: optimising the actual language learning process.tony's technique of "hooking" first gets you to associate numbers with familiar or exciting things.
for example, the number 1 could be "red post box".
the number 2 looks like a swan.
4 a sail-boat etc.
etc.  but you can equally as well use what works best for you (kinesthetics) - smells, movements, touch etc.
it's \_entirely\_ up to you to use the right "hooks" which are appropriate for \_you\_.so, you now have your "hooks".
to memorise things by numbers, let's say the number sequence 412, you imagine a sail-boat on a lake, and it goes past a red postbox, and there's a huuuge white swan sitting on top of it.
voila, you have just memorised the sequence 412.  this technique of picture/thought association gives you the ability to memorise absolutely huge sequences which you otherwise thought you were incapable of.so, if you were to use tony's technique, you would look at the character in one of two ways:1) see what the picture reminds you of (for example, tree is blindingly obvious: it looks like a tree) and then "hook" that in, in some imaginative way, with the actual object (as other people have suggested here)2) decompile the character by brush-strokes, both the sequence of the strokes (which is critically important for chinese calligraphy) and the direction, length and position, and assign each stroke's direction and position a numerical (or other sequence).
you then cross-reference that numerical sequence against the "hooks".
you also cross-reference the actual meaning at the beginning of the sequence, again in some imaginative way.by recalling the pictures / hooks, one after the other, you can turn them back into numbers.
you then turn the numbers back into brush strokes: voila, you have your chinese character.it's a lot of initial work, setting up the "hooks" that are appropriate and creating the mnemonic interpretation, but if you're serious, you'll do it.all that having been said: it would be much much easier to do sanskrit.
if you look closely at the written form of sanskrit, you'll notice that the actual written language - the brush strokes - are a \_phonetic key\_ to the pronounciation!
a vertical line means "plosive" (as in - you're going to close your mouth in some fashion).
a horizontal line means "make your voice-box resonate".
a slash on top going top-left to bottom-right means "close mouth" and a slash on top going bottom-left to top-right means "open mouth", thus you get "taaah" and "aaahht" respectively when combined with the horizontal and vertical lines.
various curly-bits mean "do different things with tongue" and thus you get "kuhh", "puhh", "tuhh", "buhh" or "aabh", "aaakh", "aahhp" if the dia</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31553392</id>
	<title>Re:Refuse to Memorize</title>
	<author>Fjandr</author>
	<datestamp>1269088860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Someone sure is bitter.</p><p>You know how much more money you can make being bilingual, especially in languages from radically different parts of the world?</p><p>Most people who are smart don't do things to make other people think they're smart. They do them because they're fun, interesting, challenging, career-building, and/or personally fulfilling. They get the same joy out of it that you do fucking beautiful girls while stoned out of your mind.</p><p>The translating computer you have? Built by smart people who didn't waste their lives wasted and in bed.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Someone sure is bitter.You know how much more money you can make being bilingual , especially in languages from radically different parts of the world ? Most people who are smart do n't do things to make other people think they 're smart .
They do them because they 're fun , interesting , challenging , career-building , and/or personally fulfilling .
They get the same joy out of it that you do fucking beautiful girls while stoned out of your mind.The translating computer you have ?
Built by smart people who did n't waste their lives wasted and in bed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Someone sure is bitter.You know how much more money you can make being bilingual, especially in languages from radically different parts of the world?Most people who are smart don't do things to make other people think they're smart.
They do them because they're fun, interesting, challenging, career-building, and/or personally fulfilling.
They get the same joy out of it that you do fucking beautiful girls while stoned out of your mind.The translating computer you have?
Built by smart people who didn't waste their lives wasted and in bed.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31553082</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31554190</id>
	<title>Re:Refuse to Memorize</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269095640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hey, while we're at it why not drop all math classes from school? We don't need it anymore the computers can do it for us!</p><p>Fucking halfwit</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hey , while we 're at it why not drop all math classes from school ?
We do n't need it anymore the computers can do it for us ! Fucking halfwit</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hey, while we're at it why not drop all math classes from school?
We don't need it anymore the computers can do it for us!Fucking halfwit</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31553082</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31556220</id>
	<title>Re:Flashcards</title>
	<author>singsung</author>
	<datestamp>1269169140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>im also using flash cards to study for my japanese exam, i found an online tool where you can create you own vocabulary lists or grab one from their bank, i think there are some for chinese as well.
<a href="http://linguar.com/" title="linguar.com" rel="nofollow">http://linguar.com/</a> [linguar.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>im also using flash cards to study for my japanese exam , i found an online tool where you can create you own vocabulary lists or grab one from their bank , i think there are some for chinese as well .
http : //linguar.com/ [ linguar.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>im also using flash cards to study for my japanese exam, i found an online tool where you can create you own vocabulary lists or grab one from their bank, i think there are some for chinese as well.
http://linguar.com/ [linguar.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551758</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31553082</id>
	<title>Refuse to Memorize</title>
	<author>Simonetta</author>
	<datestamp>1269086580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Everyone here seems to be missing the point.  We have advanced powerful cheap technology that is <i>infinitely</i> better than a human brain at memorizing things like character symbols and vocabulary.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Don't memorize anything.  Let the computer do the translating.  That's what computers are good for.  Humans are not good at this.  That is why it is so hard.  So do the obvious and let the computer do the translation.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Got a little camera like the one in cell phones?  Plug that camera into your hand held PC/internet/MP3player/telephone iTurd whatever.  Point the camera at the kanji that you want translated.  Press the button on the iTurd.  Glance briefly at the little iTurd screen.  Trust the iTurd ap program to have done an optical kanji recognition on the characters that it just imaged and is giving you the correct English/Finnish/Thai//Wolof/Whatever translation.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Tech people seem to have this obsession with doing things that prove to themselves and other people that they are 'smart'.  They believe that just because they have mastered technology, then they are under some obligation to themselves or their class that they must master all things that are difficult in order to recertify their 'smart person' credential.  So they feel the need to memorize 5000 kanji, or play a difficult Bach invention on an aucostic piano, or run a marathon, or to get themselves killed attempting to 'win the hearts and minds' of people who have neither.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Don't waste your time, and abandon your hang-ups about your smartness.  Let the $200 computer master 50000 kanji, let your $50 MIDI synth play Bach, let your car take 20 miles in comfort, and let the expendable fools go to the other side of the world and get killed.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Your 'smartness' is certified by your unwillingness to do these things yourself, the hard and dumb way.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; I studied Japanese.  It was about the time that personal computers were just beginning in 1979.  The first time that I saw an optical-character wand read digits (in 1981) I knew that there was NO FUCKING WAY that I was going to spend 10000 hours committing 10000 kanji to memory.  That's what computers do.  I'm a better person because I didn't do it.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Please spare me the horseshit about how the discipline of memorizing and learning makes a better person and builds character.  Look at those assholes who spend their life memorizing the Quran, and then go blow up a bus or day-care center.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Memorization lost its validity the day that computers started selling for $50.  And that was a long time ago.  So what that I can't pick up a Japanese newspaper and know what it says just by looking at it!  I've got a $100 1GigaHertz 400MegaFlop microPC in my hand that does it just as well.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; And I spent the 10000 hours smoking weed and fucking beautiful girls instead of memorizing kanji.  Life is a series of difficult choices and hard trade-offs.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Everyone here seems to be missing the point .
We have advanced powerful cheap technology that is infinitely better than a human brain at memorizing things like character symbols and vocabulary .
    Do n't memorize anything .
Let the computer do the translating .
That 's what computers are good for .
Humans are not good at this .
That is why it is so hard .
So do the obvious and let the computer do the translation .
    Got a little camera like the one in cell phones ?
Plug that camera into your hand held PC/internet/MP3player/telephone iTurd whatever .
Point the camera at the kanji that you want translated .
Press the button on the iTurd .
Glance briefly at the little iTurd screen .
Trust the iTurd ap program to have done an optical kanji recognition on the characters that it just imaged and is giving you the correct English/Finnish/Thai//Wolof/Whatever translation .
    Tech people seem to have this obsession with doing things that prove to themselves and other people that they are 'smart' .
They believe that just because they have mastered technology , then they are under some obligation to themselves or their class that they must master all things that are difficult in order to recertify their 'smart person ' credential .
So they feel the need to memorize 5000 kanji , or play a difficult Bach invention on an aucostic piano , or run a marathon , or to get themselves killed attempting to 'win the hearts and minds ' of people who have neither .
    Do n't waste your time , and abandon your hang-ups about your smartness .
Let the $ 200 computer master 50000 kanji , let your $ 50 MIDI synth play Bach , let your car take 20 miles in comfort , and let the expendable fools go to the other side of the world and get killed .
    Your 'smartness ' is certified by your unwillingness to do these things yourself , the hard and dumb way .
    I studied Japanese .
It was about the time that personal computers were just beginning in 1979 .
The first time that I saw an optical-character wand read digits ( in 1981 ) I knew that there was NO FUCKING WAY that I was going to spend 10000 hours committing 10000 kanji to memory .
That 's what computers do .
I 'm a better person because I did n't do it .
    Please spare me the horseshit about how the discipline of memorizing and learning makes a better person and builds character .
Look at those assholes who spend their life memorizing the Quran , and then go blow up a bus or day-care center .
    Memorization lost its validity the day that computers started selling for $ 50 .
And that was a long time ago .
So what that I ca n't pick up a Japanese newspaper and know what it says just by looking at it !
I 've got a $ 100 1GigaHertz 400MegaFlop microPC in my hand that does it just as well .
    And I spent the 10000 hours smoking weed and fucking beautiful girls instead of memorizing kanji .
Life is a series of difficult choices and hard trade-offs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Everyone here seems to be missing the point.
We have advanced powerful cheap technology that is infinitely better than a human brain at memorizing things like character symbols and vocabulary.
    Don't memorize anything.
Let the computer do the translating.
That's what computers are good for.
Humans are not good at this.
That is why it is so hard.
So do the obvious and let the computer do the translation.
    Got a little camera like the one in cell phones?
Plug that camera into your hand held PC/internet/MP3player/telephone iTurd whatever.
Point the camera at the kanji that you want translated.
Press the button on the iTurd.
Glance briefly at the little iTurd screen.
Trust the iTurd ap program to have done an optical kanji recognition on the characters that it just imaged and is giving you the correct English/Finnish/Thai//Wolof/Whatever translation.
    Tech people seem to have this obsession with doing things that prove to themselves and other people that they are 'smart'.
They believe that just because they have mastered technology, then they are under some obligation to themselves or their class that they must master all things that are difficult in order to recertify their 'smart person' credential.
So they feel the need to memorize 5000 kanji, or play a difficult Bach invention on an aucostic piano, or run a marathon, or to get themselves killed attempting to 'win the hearts and minds' of people who have neither.
    Don't waste your time, and abandon your hang-ups about your smartness.
Let the $200 computer master 50000 kanji, let your $50 MIDI synth play Bach, let your car take 20 miles in comfort, and let the expendable fools go to the other side of the world and get killed.
    Your 'smartness' is certified by your unwillingness to do these things yourself, the hard and dumb way.
    I studied Japanese.
It was about the time that personal computers were just beginning in 1979.
The first time that I saw an optical-character wand read digits (in 1981) I knew that there was NO FUCKING WAY that I was going to spend 10000 hours committing 10000 kanji to memory.
That's what computers do.
I'm a better person because I didn't do it.
    Please spare me the horseshit about how the discipline of memorizing and learning makes a better person and builds character.
Look at those assholes who spend their life memorizing the Quran, and then go blow up a bus or day-care center.
    Memorization lost its validity the day that computers started selling for $50.
And that was a long time ago.
So what that I can't pick up a Japanese newspaper and know what it says just by looking at it!
I've got a $100 1GigaHertz 400MegaFlop microPC in my hand that does it just as well.
    And I spent the 10000 hours smoking weed and fucking beautiful girls instead of memorizing kanji.
Life is a series of difficult choices and hard trade-offs.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551758</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31555812</id>
	<title>Arch Chinese</title>
	<author>Zontar The Mindless</author>
	<datestamp>1269204900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm surprised no one has even mentioned <a href="http://www.archchinese.com/" title="archchinese.com">this one</a> [archchinese.com].</p><p>Amongst the key features:</p><ul> <li>Animations showing the correct stroke order for all simplified and many traditional characters</li><li>Pronunciation</li><li>Character decomposition</li><li>Create printable worksheets</li><li>Search characters phonetically or by components/radicals</li></ul><p>The basic useful features are free. Didn't see a need to sign up as a paying member, although I might break down and buy a one-time sub just to show my support.</p><p>Requires <em>EVIL proprietary binary blob urrh hurrh hurrh</em> Flash <em>urrh binary hurrh hurhh EVIL urrh</em> -- Fuck that, it's a fantastic resource. DO check it out!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm surprised no one has even mentioned this one [ archchinese.com ] .Amongst the key features : Animations showing the correct stroke order for all simplified and many traditional charactersPronunciationCharacter decompositionCreate printable worksheetsSearch characters phonetically or by components/radicalsThe basic useful features are free .
Did n't see a need to sign up as a paying member , although I might break down and buy a one-time sub just to show my support.Requires EVIL proprietary binary blob urrh hurrh hurrh Flash urrh binary hurrh hurhh EVIL urrh -- Fuck that , it 's a fantastic resource .
DO check it out !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm surprised no one has even mentioned this one [archchinese.com].Amongst the key features: Animations showing the correct stroke order for all simplified and many traditional charactersPronunciationCharacter decompositionCreate printable worksheetsSearch characters phonetically or by components/radicalsThe basic useful features are free.
Didn't see a need to sign up as a paying member, although I might break down and buy a one-time sub just to show my support.Requires EVIL proprietary binary blob urrh hurrh hurrh Flash urrh binary hurrh hurhh EVIL urrh -- Fuck that, it's a fantastic resource.
DO check it out!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31558112</id>
	<title>Re:A proven technique</title>
	<author>ksacilotto</author>
	<datestamp>1269192240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>That didn't work much for me... I'm Brazilian and date a Russian girl for almost 2 years and we speak in English most of times, we haven't learned many things from each other's language.</htmltext>
<tokenext>That did n't work much for me... I 'm Brazilian and date a Russian girl for almost 2 years and we speak in English most of times , we have n't learned many things from each other 's language .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That didn't work much for me... I'm Brazilian and date a Russian girl for almost 2 years and we speak in English most of times, we haven't learned many things from each other's language.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551770</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31563816</id>
	<title>Re:Radical Spelling</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269194460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>chinese dictionaries have been sorting characters according to how it sounds for quite a while. there is an appendix at the back which goes by strokes though.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>chinese dictionaries have been sorting characters according to how it sounds for quite a while .
there is an appendix at the back which goes by strokes though .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>chinese dictionaries have been sorting characters according to how it sounds for quite a while.
there is an appendix at the back which goes by strokes though.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551778</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31556282</id>
	<title>Re:A proven technique</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269169920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Doesn't work. I'm married to one and that hasn't helped my Chinese much. We stick to talking English to each other (our common language, a foreign language for both of us). Living in Hong Kong however that helps. And I have taken classes, that also helped me a lot. So by now I can have a simple conversation in Chinese. Well that is as long as I don't venture out too far, Cantonese is spoken mostly in Guangdong province ("only" about 300 mln people), and I don't speak Mandarin. Mostly useless to me.
</p><p>Oh and for those who are wondering why I learned Cantonese (it's said to be harder than Mandarin): no-one around me speaks Mandarin, it's a foreign language here. And 80\% of my Chinese business associates speak Cantonese. It's interestingly also widely spoken in Singapore (where the Mandarin dialect is the official Chinese - Cantonese is spoken more) and basically all Chinese communities worldwide outside of China/Taiwan speak Cantonese.
</p><p>For an outsider however who hopes to learn some Chinese for doing business in China in general, learning Mandarin is probably the more practical choice. It's the official dialect, and widely spoken. But if you come to Hong Kong better try your luck with English. It's spoken much better than Mandarin here.
</p><p>Besides that every single town/village in China has their own dialect, often not mutually intelligible. Even in a small place like Hong Kong there are villages that speak Hakka. Unmistakably Chinese but totally unintelligible for Cantonese or Mandarin speakers.
</p><p>And for learning to write, there is only one way: like the children here. Learn the characters one by one, memorise them by writing them down dozens of times, and repeating them. Reading follows automatically that way.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Does n't work .
I 'm married to one and that has n't helped my Chinese much .
We stick to talking English to each other ( our common language , a foreign language for both of us ) .
Living in Hong Kong however that helps .
And I have taken classes , that also helped me a lot .
So by now I can have a simple conversation in Chinese .
Well that is as long as I do n't venture out too far , Cantonese is spoken mostly in Guangdong province ( " only " about 300 mln people ) , and I do n't speak Mandarin .
Mostly useless to me .
Oh and for those who are wondering why I learned Cantonese ( it 's said to be harder than Mandarin ) : no-one around me speaks Mandarin , it 's a foreign language here .
And 80 \ % of my Chinese business associates speak Cantonese .
It 's interestingly also widely spoken in Singapore ( where the Mandarin dialect is the official Chinese - Cantonese is spoken more ) and basically all Chinese communities worldwide outside of China/Taiwan speak Cantonese .
For an outsider however who hopes to learn some Chinese for doing business in China in general , learning Mandarin is probably the more practical choice .
It 's the official dialect , and widely spoken .
But if you come to Hong Kong better try your luck with English .
It 's spoken much better than Mandarin here .
Besides that every single town/village in China has their own dialect , often not mutually intelligible .
Even in a small place like Hong Kong there are villages that speak Hakka .
Unmistakably Chinese but totally unintelligible for Cantonese or Mandarin speakers .
And for learning to write , there is only one way : like the children here .
Learn the characters one by one , memorise them by writing them down dozens of times , and repeating them .
Reading follows automatically that way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Doesn't work.
I'm married to one and that hasn't helped my Chinese much.
We stick to talking English to each other (our common language, a foreign language for both of us).
Living in Hong Kong however that helps.
And I have taken classes, that also helped me a lot.
So by now I can have a simple conversation in Chinese.
Well that is as long as I don't venture out too far, Cantonese is spoken mostly in Guangdong province ("only" about 300 mln people), and I don't speak Mandarin.
Mostly useless to me.
Oh and for those who are wondering why I learned Cantonese (it's said to be harder than Mandarin): no-one around me speaks Mandarin, it's a foreign language here.
And 80\% of my Chinese business associates speak Cantonese.
It's interestingly also widely spoken in Singapore (where the Mandarin dialect is the official Chinese - Cantonese is spoken more) and basically all Chinese communities worldwide outside of China/Taiwan speak Cantonese.
For an outsider however who hopes to learn some Chinese for doing business in China in general, learning Mandarin is probably the more practical choice.
It's the official dialect, and widely spoken.
But if you come to Hong Kong better try your luck with English.
It's spoken much better than Mandarin here.
Besides that every single town/village in China has their own dialect, often not mutually intelligible.
Even in a small place like Hong Kong there are villages that speak Hakka.
Unmistakably Chinese but totally unintelligible for Cantonese or Mandarin speakers.
And for learning to write, there is only one way: like the children here.
Learn the characters one by one, memorise them by writing them down dozens of times, and repeating them.
Reading follows automatically that way.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551770</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552320</id>
	<title>Re:Incorrect assumption!</title>
	<author>Skewray</author>
	<datestamp>1269081180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I completely agree with this - Chinese characters are quite phonetic for learning Chinese, while hopeless for Japanese.  I never thought much of Rosetta Stone, though.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I completely agree with this - Chinese characters are quite phonetic for learning Chinese , while hopeless for Japanese .
I never thought much of Rosetta Stone , though .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I completely agree with this - Chinese characters are quite phonetic for learning Chinese, while hopeless for Japanese.
I never thought much of Rosetta Stone, though.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551950</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551794</id>
	<title>Language settings?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269077160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Any anecdotes out there regarding the helpfulness (or lack thereof) in changing your computer's default language?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Any anecdotes out there regarding the helpfulness ( or lack thereof ) in changing your computer 's default language ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Any anecdotes out there regarding the helpfulness (or lack thereof) in changing your computer's default language?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31554778</id>
	<title>Re:Flashcards</title>
	<author>vegacom</author>
	<datestamp>1269101700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I use smart.fm webapp. It contains variety of lists for different pairs of languages. Many for English-Japanese.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I use smart.fm webapp .
It contains variety of lists for different pairs of languages .
Many for English-Japanese .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I use smart.fm webapp.
It contains variety of lists for different pairs of languages.
Many for English-Japanese.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551758</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551930</id>
	<title>Use flashcard software</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269078240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've developed my own flash card software, I've used it for Japanese characters so I suspect it will work fine for Chinese as well. You can get it at http://www.helixsoft.nl/project\_page.php?file\_name=higgins.proj, some language files are included</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've developed my own flash card software , I 've used it for Japanese characters so I suspect it will work fine for Chinese as well .
You can get it at http : //www.helixsoft.nl/project \ _page.php ? file \ _name = higgins.proj , some language files are included</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've developed my own flash card software, I've used it for Japanese characters so I suspect it will work fine for Chinese as well.
You can get it at http://www.helixsoft.nl/project\_page.php?file\_name=higgins.proj, some language files are included</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31555554</id>
	<title>Traditional way is to learn the 3 char classic</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269113400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>The traditional way is to learn the 3 characters classic.
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three\_Character\_Classic" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three\_Character\_Classic</a> [wikipedia.org]
<br>
The modern way is to read chinese children books</htmltext>
<tokenext>The traditional way is to learn the 3 characters classic .
http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three \ _Character \ _Classic [ wikipedia.org ] The modern way is to read chinese children books</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The traditional way is to learn the 3 characters classic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three\_Character\_Classic [wikipedia.org]

The modern way is to read chinese children books</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31554800</id>
	<title>Re:Heisig's technique</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269101880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That book is a scam. Learning the radicals will give you the same results only it is actually correct.</p><p>Not that it really helps. I know ~3000 characters and I still have to study hard for the educated native level Kanji test which only requires about 2000. This is because remembering a Kanji, even being able to write it, is worth shit, really. And I know the ~3000 characters because I know words that use them. A Heisig student taking that test would make for fun reality TV.<br>If you don't know the word, knowing the letters needed to spell it won't help.</p><p>Its like saying: "hey I know all characters [A-Z][a-z] now I am ready to go to the Basque Country and fuck the hot Basque girls!"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That book is a scam .
Learning the radicals will give you the same results only it is actually correct.Not that it really helps .
I know ~ 3000 characters and I still have to study hard for the educated native level Kanji test which only requires about 2000 .
This is because remembering a Kanji , even being able to write it , is worth shit , really .
And I know the ~ 3000 characters because I know words that use them .
A Heisig student taking that test would make for fun reality TV.If you do n't know the word , knowing the letters needed to spell it wo n't help.Its like saying : " hey I know all characters [ A-Z ] [ a-z ] now I am ready to go to the Basque Country and fuck the hot Basque girls !
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That book is a scam.
Learning the radicals will give you the same results only it is actually correct.Not that it really helps.
I know ~3000 characters and I still have to study hard for the educated native level Kanji test which only requires about 2000.
This is because remembering a Kanji, even being able to write it, is worth shit, really.
And I know the ~3000 characters because I know words that use them.
A Heisig student taking that test would make for fun reality TV.If you don't know the word, knowing the letters needed to spell it won't help.Its like saying: "hey I know all characters [A-Z][a-z] now I am ready to go to the Basque Country and fuck the hot Basque girls!
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552066</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552460</id>
	<title>Re:Heisig's technique</title>
	<author>FooSoft</author>
	<datestamp>1269082320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is so true. Heisig's method combined with using Anki for SRS (spaced repition system) works so well it's like a human memory exploit. You can learn and retain 25 or so characters a day in about 1 hour's worth of study. It's pretty amazing. I have learned over 3000 characters in the span of about 1/2 a year with this method, with retention rates of about 93-94\% during my reviews. I can't speak highly enough for how well this works.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is so true .
Heisig 's method combined with using Anki for SRS ( spaced repition system ) works so well it 's like a human memory exploit .
You can learn and retain 25 or so characters a day in about 1 hour 's worth of study .
It 's pretty amazing .
I have learned over 3000 characters in the span of about 1/2 a year with this method , with retention rates of about 93-94 \ % during my reviews .
I ca n't speak highly enough for how well this works .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is so true.
Heisig's method combined with using Anki for SRS (spaced repition system) works so well it's like a human memory exploit.
You can learn and retain 25 or so characters a day in about 1 hour's worth of study.
It's pretty amazing.
I have learned over 3000 characters in the span of about 1/2 a year with this method, with retention rates of about 93-94\% during my reviews.
I can't speak highly enough for how well this works.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552066</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552474</id>
	<title>Two cents from a native Chinese</title>
	<author>weibin</author>
	<datestamp>1269082440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Disclaimer, I am not a teacher, I once explained this to a co-worker.</p><p>Instead of 26 alphabets, you have several hundreds of basic characters that represent BOTH meaning and sound.  They are simple and often pictorial, but you do have to memorize their sounds (in Mandarin or Cantonese or other dialects<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-).</p><p>Once you pass that, more complicated characters can be composed.  Often one part gives the basic sound, while the other half extends the meaning.  Together they form a new character of which the sound and meaning that you can guess or infer.</p><p>Figuring out the "magic" of how these compositions work can be entertaining and often leads to "ah-huh!" moments.  Try to make it fun for your kid (and you), in a detective story/game sort of way.  You'll often guess the sound wrong or fail to infer a new meaning, but your kid (who likely outplays you in Mr. Potato Head<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-) has far better imagination and would be more often right than you do.  So play it like a puzzle, only it is also good practice for you both.</p><p>Good luck,</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Disclaimer , I am not a teacher , I once explained this to a co-worker.Instead of 26 alphabets , you have several hundreds of basic characters that represent BOTH meaning and sound .
They are simple and often pictorial , but you do have to memorize their sounds ( in Mandarin or Cantonese or other dialects : - ) .Once you pass that , more complicated characters can be composed .
Often one part gives the basic sound , while the other half extends the meaning .
Together they form a new character of which the sound and meaning that you can guess or infer.Figuring out the " magic " of how these compositions work can be entertaining and often leads to " ah-huh !
" moments .
Try to make it fun for your kid ( and you ) , in a detective story/game sort of way .
You 'll often guess the sound wrong or fail to infer a new meaning , but your kid ( who likely outplays you in Mr. Potato Head : - ) has far better imagination and would be more often right than you do .
So play it like a puzzle , only it is also good practice for you both.Good luck,</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Disclaimer, I am not a teacher, I once explained this to a co-worker.Instead of 26 alphabets, you have several hundreds of basic characters that represent BOTH meaning and sound.
They are simple and often pictorial, but you do have to memorize their sounds (in Mandarin or Cantonese or other dialects :-).Once you pass that, more complicated characters can be composed.
Often one part gives the basic sound, while the other half extends the meaning.
Together they form a new character of which the sound and meaning that you can guess or infer.Figuring out the "magic" of how these compositions work can be entertaining and often leads to "ah-huh!
" moments.
Try to make it fun for your kid (and you), in a detective story/game sort of way.
You'll often guess the sound wrong or fail to infer a new meaning, but your kid (who likely outplays you in Mr. Potato Head :-) has far better imagination and would be more often right than you do.
So play it like a puzzle, only it is also good practice for you both.Good luck,</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31555308</id>
	<title>Asking /. is widening the response</title>
	<author>NotesSensei</author>
	<datestamp>1269109560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Of course I talk to the teachers. However teachers are few, often not tech-savvy and might not know all possibilities. Crowd sourcing widens options. Btw. I forwarded the URL to the teacher, so she is following.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Of course I talk to the teachers .
However teachers are few , often not tech-savvy and might not know all possibilities .
Crowd sourcing widens options .
Btw. I forwarded the URL to the teacher , so she is following .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Of course I talk to the teachers.
However teachers are few, often not tech-savvy and might not know all possibilities.
Crowd sourcing widens options.
Btw. I forwarded the URL to the teacher, so she is following.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551792</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31576816</id>
	<title>simplified vs. traditional characters</title>
	<author>juan2074</author>
	<datestamp>1269258540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>That is definitely true for traditional Chinese characters, but it breaks down with the simplified characters.
Some simplified characters remove or change radicals, or the whole character changes dramatically, so the phonetic portion may no longer be there or is not apparent.

<br> <br>Ironically, the traditional characters are easier to learn to read and understand (maybe not to write) than the simplified ones.</htmltext>
<tokenext>That is definitely true for traditional Chinese characters , but it breaks down with the simplified characters .
Some simplified characters remove or change radicals , or the whole character changes dramatically , so the phonetic portion may no longer be there or is not apparent .
Ironically , the traditional characters are easier to learn to read and understand ( maybe not to write ) than the simplified ones .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That is definitely true for traditional Chinese characters, but it breaks down with the simplified characters.
Some simplified characters remove or change radicals, or the whole character changes dramatically, so the phonetic portion may no longer be there or is not apparent.
Ironically, the traditional characters are easier to learn to read and understand (maybe not to write) than the simplified ones.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551950</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552262</id>
	<title>One technique that might be useful...</title>
	<author>thewils</author>
	<datestamp>1269080820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've been picking up some Japanese recently, via podcasts, torrented mp3s and the like but learning Kanji above Grade 1 isn't going too well. This is largely because I never get to use it in real life. My suggestion to pick up Kanki/Chinese Characters is to associate the symbol with the actual object. For instance, to learn the Kanji for "shoe" write the Kanji on a sticker and put it in your shoe, or all your shoes. That way, every time you put your shoe on, you will be reminded of the Kanji. Do this for everything around the house and pretty soon you will build up a healthy knowledge of Kanji for everyday objects. Once you can write the Kanji from memory, you can remove it from it's associated object.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've been picking up some Japanese recently , via podcasts , torrented mp3s and the like but learning Kanji above Grade 1 is n't going too well .
This is largely because I never get to use it in real life .
My suggestion to pick up Kanki/Chinese Characters is to associate the symbol with the actual object .
For instance , to learn the Kanji for " shoe " write the Kanji on a sticker and put it in your shoe , or all your shoes .
That way , every time you put your shoe on , you will be reminded of the Kanji .
Do this for everything around the house and pretty soon you will build up a healthy knowledge of Kanji for everyday objects .
Once you can write the Kanji from memory , you can remove it from it 's associated object .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've been picking up some Japanese recently, via podcasts, torrented mp3s and the like but learning Kanji above Grade 1 isn't going too well.
This is largely because I never get to use it in real life.
My suggestion to pick up Kanki/Chinese Characters is to associate the symbol with the actual object.
For instance, to learn the Kanji for "shoe" write the Kanji on a sticker and put it in your shoe, or all your shoes.
That way, every time you put your shoe on, you will be reminded of the Kanji.
Do this for everything around the house and pretty soon you will build up a healthy knowledge of Kanji for everyday objects.
Once you can write the Kanji from memory, you can remove it from it's associated object.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31553390</id>
	<title>Radicals and Common Characters</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269088860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Even though the characters don't match up to sounds, every character has a certain number "radicals" (or simple characters) that come together to form other characters.  So once you know the simple ones, you can derive the meaning of more complex ones.</p><p>In Japanese, which uses the same Kanji, it's believe that you'll have 80\% literacy if you learn the 500 most commonly used Kanji.  After that it's a point of diminishing returns, so in Chinese you may want to do some research and find out which characters are used the most.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Even though the characters do n't match up to sounds , every character has a certain number " radicals " ( or simple characters ) that come together to form other characters .
So once you know the simple ones , you can derive the meaning of more complex ones.In Japanese , which uses the same Kanji , it 's believe that you 'll have 80 \ % literacy if you learn the 500 most commonly used Kanji .
After that it 's a point of diminishing returns , so in Chinese you may want to do some research and find out which characters are used the most .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Even though the characters don't match up to sounds, every character has a certain number "radicals" (or simple characters) that come together to form other characters.
So once you know the simple ones, you can derive the meaning of more complex ones.In Japanese, which uses the same Kanji, it's believe that you'll have 80\% literacy if you learn the 500 most commonly used Kanji.
After that it's a point of diminishing returns, so in Chinese you may want to do some research and find out which characters are used the most.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31564542</id>
	<title>Re:Once you learn some radicals...</title>
	<author>kubitus</author>
	<datestamp>1269249300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I prepare learning cards for my Putonghua class. Works great.<p>
 the teacher explaining the meaning of the radical(s) also helps understanding. Latest example:</p><p>
Character for water over the character for cold is 'zero'</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I prepare learning cards for my Putonghua class .
Works great .
the teacher explaining the meaning of the radical ( s ) also helps understanding .
Latest example : Character for water over the character for cold is 'zero'</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I prepare learning cards for my Putonghua class.
Works great.
the teacher explaining the meaning of the radical(s) also helps understanding.
Latest example:
Character for water over the character for cold is 'zero'</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551844</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31553158</id>
	<title>Re:Same?</title>
	<author>Bigjeff5</author>
	<datestamp>1269087060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In all latin-based languages there is a phonetic alphabet only.  This alphabet is made up of letters based on phonetic sounds.  Using these phonetic letters and basic grammar rules you can correctly read any written word, whether you know what it means or not.  You can then use a reference to find said words and look up their meaning.</p><p>In other words, the shape represents a specific sound (or set of sounds).  Knowing the letters in the alphabet also means you know how to pronounce the words written in that alphabet.</p><p>Chinese, however, has no alphabet.  It uses pictographs for the words, which are completely unrelated to its pronunciation and the only way to look them up in a reference is by searching for similarly constructed pictographs.  They generally have base structures that all the pictographs are based on, and this is generally related in some way to the meaning of the word itself, but that can be so muddied that you would never figure it out.  It also usually has nothing at all to do with how to pronounce the word.  For example, I believe the word for Sunday involves rice patties.  WTF?  It's not pronounced the same as the word for rice patties, mind you, but it shares the base structure as rice patties.  It's exactly the same kind of thing as Egyptian hieroglyphics - what the hell is "man facing left with palm face up at chest level" supposed to mean?  How do you pronounce that?  How do you look it up?</p><p>Japanese is a little easier, as they use both Chinese characters and their own alphabet, but learning the characters is rote memorization for every single word.</p><p>Completely off topic, but this is why the modern trend of teaching people to "read by sight" is such utter bullshit.  The whole point of having an alphabet is so you can construct any word from a small number of symbols, making learning to write (and read) new words a breeze.  If you can pronounce it you can probably spell it (grammar and spelling rules apply, of course), if you can spell it you can probably pronounce it.  "Sight reading" completely breaks that because anybody who didn't pick up on the individual sounds each character makes (because the phonetic alphabet was not taught) is now stuck with a limited vocabulary that cannot be expanded upon without the same amount of training it would have taken to teach the alphabet phonetically in the first place!</p><p>That's why while they can technically read, with a vocabulary in the 1000-2000 word range about 20\% of Americans are functionally illiterate.  They can read those stupid sight-reading books like the dickens but heaven help them if they try to read the back of a food label.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In all latin-based languages there is a phonetic alphabet only .
This alphabet is made up of letters based on phonetic sounds .
Using these phonetic letters and basic grammar rules you can correctly read any written word , whether you know what it means or not .
You can then use a reference to find said words and look up their meaning.In other words , the shape represents a specific sound ( or set of sounds ) .
Knowing the letters in the alphabet also means you know how to pronounce the words written in that alphabet.Chinese , however , has no alphabet .
It uses pictographs for the words , which are completely unrelated to its pronunciation and the only way to look them up in a reference is by searching for similarly constructed pictographs .
They generally have base structures that all the pictographs are based on , and this is generally related in some way to the meaning of the word itself , but that can be so muddied that you would never figure it out .
It also usually has nothing at all to do with how to pronounce the word .
For example , I believe the word for Sunday involves rice patties .
WTF ? It 's not pronounced the same as the word for rice patties , mind you , but it shares the base structure as rice patties .
It 's exactly the same kind of thing as Egyptian hieroglyphics - what the hell is " man facing left with palm face up at chest level " supposed to mean ?
How do you pronounce that ?
How do you look it up ? Japanese is a little easier , as they use both Chinese characters and their own alphabet , but learning the characters is rote memorization for every single word.Completely off topic , but this is why the modern trend of teaching people to " read by sight " is such utter bullshit .
The whole point of having an alphabet is so you can construct any word from a small number of symbols , making learning to write ( and read ) new words a breeze .
If you can pronounce it you can probably spell it ( grammar and spelling rules apply , of course ) , if you can spell it you can probably pronounce it .
" Sight reading " completely breaks that because anybody who did n't pick up on the individual sounds each character makes ( because the phonetic alphabet was not taught ) is now stuck with a limited vocabulary that can not be expanded upon without the same amount of training it would have taken to teach the alphabet phonetically in the first place ! That 's why while they can technically read , with a vocabulary in the 1000-2000 word range about 20 \ % of Americans are functionally illiterate .
They can read those stupid sight-reading books like the dickens but heaven help them if they try to read the back of a food label .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In all latin-based languages there is a phonetic alphabet only.
This alphabet is made up of letters based on phonetic sounds.
Using these phonetic letters and basic grammar rules you can correctly read any written word, whether you know what it means or not.
You can then use a reference to find said words and look up their meaning.In other words, the shape represents a specific sound (or set of sounds).
Knowing the letters in the alphabet also means you know how to pronounce the words written in that alphabet.Chinese, however, has no alphabet.
It uses pictographs for the words, which are completely unrelated to its pronunciation and the only way to look them up in a reference is by searching for similarly constructed pictographs.
They generally have base structures that all the pictographs are based on, and this is generally related in some way to the meaning of the word itself, but that can be so muddied that you would never figure it out.
It also usually has nothing at all to do with how to pronounce the word.
For example, I believe the word for Sunday involves rice patties.
WTF?  It's not pronounced the same as the word for rice patties, mind you, but it shares the base structure as rice patties.
It's exactly the same kind of thing as Egyptian hieroglyphics - what the hell is "man facing left with palm face up at chest level" supposed to mean?
How do you pronounce that?
How do you look it up?Japanese is a little easier, as they use both Chinese characters and their own alphabet, but learning the characters is rote memorization for every single word.Completely off topic, but this is why the modern trend of teaching people to "read by sight" is such utter bullshit.
The whole point of having an alphabet is so you can construct any word from a small number of symbols, making learning to write (and read) new words a breeze.
If you can pronounce it you can probably spell it (grammar and spelling rules apply, of course), if you can spell it you can probably pronounce it.
"Sight reading" completely breaks that because anybody who didn't pick up on the individual sounds each character makes (because the phonetic alphabet was not taught) is now stuck with a limited vocabulary that cannot be expanded upon without the same amount of training it would have taken to teach the alphabet phonetically in the first place!That's why while they can technically read, with a vocabulary in the 1000-2000 word range about 20\% of Americans are functionally illiterate.
They can read those stupid sight-reading books like the dickens but heaven help them if they try to read the back of a food label.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551762</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31555988</id>
	<title>Yet another homepage</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269165660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>check out:<br>http://www.smart.fm<br>This gets you a nice web-based flashcard-ish software.</p><p>And I can heartily recommend the technique used by James W. Heisig in remembering the kanji.<br>I've tried both repetitive (many iterations) and the meme way used by Heisig, and those words I learn by meme tends to stay in memory for longer.</p><p>Another thing that works for me is to picture the kanji in 3d in my mind and then perform a virtual rotation on any axis (x,y,z). Do this for a minute or two.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>check out : http : //www.smart.fmThis gets you a nice web-based flashcard-ish software.And I can heartily recommend the technique used by James W. Heisig in remembering the kanji.I 've tried both repetitive ( many iterations ) and the meme way used by Heisig , and those words I learn by meme tends to stay in memory for longer.Another thing that works for me is to picture the kanji in 3d in my mind and then perform a virtual rotation on any axis ( x,y,z ) .
Do this for a minute or two .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>check out:http://www.smart.fmThis gets you a nice web-based flashcard-ish software.And I can heartily recommend the technique used by James W. Heisig in remembering the kanji.I've tried both repetitive (many iterations) and the meme way used by Heisig, and those words I learn by meme tends to stay in memory for longer.Another thing that works for me is to picture the kanji in 3d in my mind and then perform a virtual rotation on any axis (x,y,z).
Do this for a minute or two.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31557272</id>
	<title>Re:Flashcards</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269183720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I studied Chinese for 2 years, and at first had difficulty relating the character, the phonetic and the translation together using normal 2-sided flash cards.</p><p>I developed what I call "3-sided paper":<br>Fold a small strip of paper in half. On the folded side that points outward ("side 1"), write the Chinese character.<br>On the inside of the paper, write the pinyin on one half of the fold and the English translation on the other.</p><p>Now you can practice any of the 3 pieces of information. Keep the strips in a bucket or box, and as a warm-up to your daily studies grab a few out randomly and test yourself.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I studied Chinese for 2 years , and at first had difficulty relating the character , the phonetic and the translation together using normal 2-sided flash cards.I developed what I call " 3-sided paper " : Fold a small strip of paper in half .
On the folded side that points outward ( " side 1 " ) , write the Chinese character.On the inside of the paper , write the pinyin on one half of the fold and the English translation on the other.Now you can practice any of the 3 pieces of information .
Keep the strips in a bucket or box , and as a warm-up to your daily studies grab a few out randomly and test yourself .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I studied Chinese for 2 years, and at first had difficulty relating the character, the phonetic and the translation together using normal 2-sided flash cards.I developed what I call "3-sided paper":Fold a small strip of paper in half.
On the folded side that points outward ("side 1"), write the Chinese character.On the inside of the paper, write the pinyin on one half of the fold and the English translation on the other.Now you can practice any of the 3 pieces of information.
Keep the strips in a bucket or box, and as a warm-up to your daily studies grab a few out randomly and test yourself.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551758</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31556118</id>
	<title>Re:Incorrect assumption!</title>
	<author>matunos</author>
	<datestamp>1269167400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Flashcards are probably the best for good ole fashioned memorization, but it might also help to have the kids use http://zhongwen.com's symbol-tree to translate characters from time to time. It will enhance their ability to recognize these types of radicals, both by having to try to find the character they're looking for in the tree, as well as by reading the radicals the character is composed of in the word definitions.<br><br>(Note: the character tree is built up using the simplified characters; the translation/description of the characters also show the traditional characters, though.)</htmltext>
<tokenext>Flashcards are probably the best for good ole fashioned memorization , but it might also help to have the kids use http : //zhongwen.com 's symbol-tree to translate characters from time to time .
It will enhance their ability to recognize these types of radicals , both by having to try to find the character they 're looking for in the tree , as well as by reading the radicals the character is composed of in the word definitions .
( Note : the character tree is built up using the simplified characters ; the translation/description of the characters also show the traditional characters , though .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Flashcards are probably the best for good ole fashioned memorization, but it might also help to have the kids use http://zhongwen.com's symbol-tree to translate characters from time to time.
It will enhance their ability to recognize these types of radicals, both by having to try to find the character they're looking for in the tree, as well as by reading the radicals the character is composed of in the word definitions.
(Note: the character tree is built up using the simplified characters; the translation/description of the characters also show the traditional characters, though.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551950</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551758</id>
	<title>Flashcards</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269076980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Flashcards are great for learning Chinese or Japanese characters. There are also many characters, or parts thereof, that have a mnemonic relationship to the idea that they are used to impart. I can't think of any decent books offhand, but they're out there.</p><p>Still, flashcards are awesome in this regard.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Flashcards are great for learning Chinese or Japanese characters .
There are also many characters , or parts thereof , that have a mnemonic relationship to the idea that they are used to impart .
I ca n't think of any decent books offhand , but they 're out there.Still , flashcards are awesome in this regard .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Flashcards are great for learning Chinese or Japanese characters.
There are also many characters, or parts thereof, that have a mnemonic relationship to the idea that they are used to impart.
I can't think of any decent books offhand, but they're out there.Still, flashcards are awesome in this regard.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31556078</id>
	<title>Re:Tattoos</title>
	<author>DNS-and-BIND</author>
	<datestamp>1269166860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>For those three of you who haven't seen it yet, <a href="http://hanzismatter.com/" title="hanzismatter.com">http://hanzismatter.com/</a> [hanzismatter.com] is the canonical site for idiotic people getting themselves permanently tattooed with a language that they don't understand.</htmltext>
<tokenext>For those three of you who have n't seen it yet , http : //hanzismatter.com/ [ hanzismatter.com ] is the canonical site for idiotic people getting themselves permanently tattooed with a language that they do n't understand .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For those three of you who haven't seen it yet, http://hanzismatter.com/ [hanzismatter.com] is the canonical site for idiotic people getting themselves permanently tattooed with a language that they don't understand.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31555520</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31553406</id>
	<title>online interactive flashcards!</title>
	<author>Rikiji7</author>
	<datestamp>1269088980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><a href="http://www.playkanji.com/" title="playkanji.com" rel="nofollow">This is for japanese characters</a> [playkanji.com], learn by playing and gaining EXP points like in a role play game!</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is for japanese characters [ playkanji.com ] , learn by playing and gaining EXP points like in a role play game !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is for japanese characters [playkanji.com], learn by playing and gaining EXP points like in a role play game!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552630</id>
	<title>characters are made of sub-parts</title>
	<author>peter303</author>
	<datestamp>1269083520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>And not just the radical (dictionary lookup) part.  I wish all my teachers had named the parts from the start.  But you gradually learn their names.  Then you sort of remember character X is made up of the water and water and po-sounding part and so on.
<br>
After a while you dont think of parts, but the "gestalt" or entirety.  Same thing happens in English reading.  You see the whole word, its length, the ascending and descending parts, the first and final letters.  Theres a trick text going around where the interior letters in English words are scrambled and its fairly easy to learn because you see the whole word instead of each letter after a few years of reading.</htmltext>
<tokenext>And not just the radical ( dictionary lookup ) part .
I wish all my teachers had named the parts from the start .
But you gradually learn their names .
Then you sort of remember character X is made up of the water and water and po-sounding part and so on .
After a while you dont think of parts , but the " gestalt " or entirety .
Same thing happens in English reading .
You see the whole word , its length , the ascending and descending parts , the first and final letters .
Theres a trick text going around where the interior letters in English words are scrambled and its fairly easy to learn because you see the whole word instead of each letter after a few years of reading .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And not just the radical (dictionary lookup) part.
I wish all my teachers had named the parts from the start.
But you gradually learn their names.
Then you sort of remember character X is made up of the water and water and po-sounding part and so on.
After a while you dont think of parts, but the "gestalt" or entirety.
Same thing happens in English reading.
You see the whole word, its length, the ascending and descending parts, the first and final letters.
Theres a trick text going around where the interior letters in English words are scrambled and its fairly easy to learn because you see the whole word instead of each letter after a few years of reading.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552178</id>
	<title>Re:Not for English, either</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269080100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, there is no reason a K is pronounced like a K. You can make up mnemonics, but it's just an abstract shape. There are only 26 to learn (56 if you include capitals, which can bare resemblance to the lower case versions).
</p><p>I've been trying to learn Japanese and this effects me too. I learned Katakana and Hiragana pretty easily, using little mnemonics  and memory tricks (<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Kana-Pict-o-Graphix-Mnemonics-Japanese-Hiragana/dp/1880656183/ref=sr\_1\_5?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1269118978&amp;sr=8-5" title="amazon.com">Kana Pict-o-Graphics</a> [amazon.com] is <i>amazing</i>), and so the alphabets are easy to learn and retain. There are only about 100 in total, plus a few combinations that are easy to learn, and two possible add-on marks (called diacriticals, I think) which change the sound. This is made easier because some Katakana look almost exactly like the equivalent Hiragana, and they are all for the same sets of sounds (so there is no sound that you can write in Katakana that isn't in Hiragana). The whole thing can be memorized in a week or two with enough effort. Memorizing that much stuff isn't terrible.
</p><p>Then you get to the Kanji, which are either borrowed Chinese characters, possibly changed and with new inventions. They're a nightmare. Some are simple and you can learn based on what they represent (forrest and river are pretty easy). Many are composed in ways that would help you learn them if you remember the parts and what they represent. Another Michael Rowley is pretty good here, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Kanji-Pict-O-Graphix-Over-Japanese-Mnemonics/dp/0962813702/ref=sr\_1\_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1269119132&amp;sr=1-1" title="amazon.com">Kanji Pict-o-Graphix</a> [amazon.com]. The problem is that book has over 1000 characters to learn. That's the amount that a 6th grader is expected to know (and the set in the book don't match that set, I don't think). The equivalent of high school is about 2000, with another 200 which have different readings when used in names.
</p><p>Then you get the fun of X means "moon" and Y means "duck", but XY might mean "reclining chair", which is read totally differently from the pronunciation of X and the pronunciation of Y. But if you don't know that combination, the sentence won't make sense.
</p><p>The poster is right. With these kind of languages, they really aren't hard. In fact, Japanese seems much more regular than English. The problem is that if you want to be <i>literate</i>, you're going to just have to blindly memorize a <i>ton</i> of stuff, and doing that is really difficult. I'm glad he asked this, it's something I'm struggling with.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , there is no reason a K is pronounced like a K. You can make up mnemonics , but it 's just an abstract shape .
There are only 26 to learn ( 56 if you include capitals , which can bare resemblance to the lower case versions ) .
I 've been trying to learn Japanese and this effects me too .
I learned Katakana and Hiragana pretty easily , using little mnemonics and memory tricks ( Kana Pict-o-Graphics [ amazon.com ] is amazing ) , and so the alphabets are easy to learn and retain .
There are only about 100 in total , plus a few combinations that are easy to learn , and two possible add-on marks ( called diacriticals , I think ) which change the sound .
This is made easier because some Katakana look almost exactly like the equivalent Hiragana , and they are all for the same sets of sounds ( so there is no sound that you can write in Katakana that is n't in Hiragana ) .
The whole thing can be memorized in a week or two with enough effort .
Memorizing that much stuff is n't terrible .
Then you get to the Kanji , which are either borrowed Chinese characters , possibly changed and with new inventions .
They 're a nightmare .
Some are simple and you can learn based on what they represent ( forrest and river are pretty easy ) .
Many are composed in ways that would help you learn them if you remember the parts and what they represent .
Another Michael Rowley is pretty good here , Kanji Pict-o-Graphix [ amazon.com ] .
The problem is that book has over 1000 characters to learn .
That 's the amount that a 6th grader is expected to know ( and the set in the book do n't match that set , I do n't think ) .
The equivalent of high school is about 2000 , with another 200 which have different readings when used in names .
Then you get the fun of X means " moon " and Y means " duck " , but XY might mean " reclining chair " , which is read totally differently from the pronunciation of X and the pronunciation of Y. But if you do n't know that combination , the sentence wo n't make sense .
The poster is right .
With these kind of languages , they really are n't hard .
In fact , Japanese seems much more regular than English .
The problem is that if you want to be literate , you 're going to just have to blindly memorize a ton of stuff , and doing that is really difficult .
I 'm glad he asked this , it 's something I 'm struggling with .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, there is no reason a K is pronounced like a K. You can make up mnemonics, but it's just an abstract shape.
There are only 26 to learn (56 if you include capitals, which can bare resemblance to the lower case versions).
I've been trying to learn Japanese and this effects me too.
I learned Katakana and Hiragana pretty easily, using little mnemonics  and memory tricks (Kana Pict-o-Graphics [amazon.com] is amazing), and so the alphabets are easy to learn and retain.
There are only about 100 in total, plus a few combinations that are easy to learn, and two possible add-on marks (called diacriticals, I think) which change the sound.
This is made easier because some Katakana look almost exactly like the equivalent Hiragana, and they are all for the same sets of sounds (so there is no sound that you can write in Katakana that isn't in Hiragana).
The whole thing can be memorized in a week or two with enough effort.
Memorizing that much stuff isn't terrible.
Then you get to the Kanji, which are either borrowed Chinese characters, possibly changed and with new inventions.
They're a nightmare.
Some are simple and you can learn based on what they represent (forrest and river are pretty easy).
Many are composed in ways that would help you learn them if you remember the parts and what they represent.
Another Michael Rowley is pretty good here, Kanji Pict-o-Graphix [amazon.com].
The problem is that book has over 1000 characters to learn.
That's the amount that a 6th grader is expected to know (and the set in the book don't match that set, I don't think).
The equivalent of high school is about 2000, with another 200 which have different readings when used in names.
Then you get the fun of X means "moon" and Y means "duck", but XY might mean "reclining chair", which is read totally differently from the pronunciation of X and the pronunciation of Y. But if you don't know that combination, the sentence won't make sense.
The poster is right.
With these kind of languages, they really aren't hard.
In fact, Japanese seems much more regular than English.
The problem is that if you want to be literate, you're going to just have to blindly memorize a ton of stuff, and doing that is really difficult.
I'm glad he asked this, it's something I'm struggling with.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551796</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551770</id>
	<title>A proven technique</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269077040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Date a native speaker.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Date a native speaker .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Date a native speaker.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31554754</id>
	<title>Re:Flashcards</title>
	<author>soilheart</author>
	<datestamp>1269101460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yeah, flashcards is great. Write the character on one side, the English on top on the other side and the pinyin (pronunciation) on the bottom of the other side. Keep your thumb over the pinyin and learn it from English to pinyin/character. Usually you learn the other way around too, if not then just turn the card and try to translate/say the characters.<br>
<br>
Also "since there is no relation between sound and shape of the characters" is absolutely wrong...<br>
I have studied Chinese for 3 years and nowadays if I can't read a character I just guess the sound is similar to similar characters and more often than not you actually succeed in some way. The radical of the character tells you what the word is about, the other part may sometimes give you a good clue about pronunciation.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , flashcards is great .
Write the character on one side , the English on top on the other side and the pinyin ( pronunciation ) on the bottom of the other side .
Keep your thumb over the pinyin and learn it from English to pinyin/character .
Usually you learn the other way around too , if not then just turn the card and try to translate/say the characters .
Also " since there is no relation between sound and shape of the characters " is absolutely wrong.. . I have studied Chinese for 3 years and nowadays if I ca n't read a character I just guess the sound is similar to similar characters and more often than not you actually succeed in some way .
The radical of the character tells you what the word is about , the other part may sometimes give you a good clue about pronunciation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, flashcards is great.
Write the character on one side, the English on top on the other side and the pinyin (pronunciation) on the bottom of the other side.
Keep your thumb over the pinyin and learn it from English to pinyin/character.
Usually you learn the other way around too, if not then just turn the card and try to translate/say the characters.
Also "since there is no relation between sound and shape of the characters" is absolutely wrong...
I have studied Chinese for 3 years and nowadays if I can't read a character I just guess the sound is similar to similar characters and more often than not you actually succeed in some way.
The radical of the character tells you what the word is about, the other part may sometimes give you a good clue about pronunciation.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551758</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31555562</id>
	<title>Re:Refuse to Memorize</title>
	<author>SanityInAnarchy</author>
	<datestamp>1269113460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So let's see:</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Don't memorize anything.</p></div><p>Flawed in <i>many</i> ways.</p><p>First and foremost, you can't synthesize facts you don't know. As an example, someone recently hired me to sort through five thousand bounced emails and figure out how to turn them into a spreadsheet containing the actual failed email addresses.</p><p>In order to do this, I had him put it on an IMAP server (the last time he asked me to do this, it was already). I then connected to it with a Ruby script using an IMAP library, parsed the relevant messages (moving each message I successfully parsed to a different IMAP folder), refining my algorithm to parse the rest, and at each step, dumping the results to a CSV file (trivially easy to generate) which I knew he could open in Excel.</p><p>At the very least, I had to understand what IMAP is, and where it fits into the picture. Whenever someone gives me a similar problem, my first thought now is, "If I give you access to an IMAP server, you can click+drag all the email out of wherever it is and onto this common server that I can access from wherever I am. It's a stupidly simple and portable way for us to deal with whole folders worth of email."</p><p>Now, it's true that if I didn't know it was called IMAP, I could probably Google for something like "Email protocols", read up on Wikipedia, and figure out which one I was talking about. But what if I didn't remember such a thing existed? I might have been digging through whatever format Thunderbird uses for days -- I can't think of a reasonable way I would <i>discover</i> IMAP for this purpose, if I hadn't already been exposed to it in some other way.</p><p>There's also CSV. Again, without knowing about CSV, what would I Google? "How to get stuff into Excel"? At best, I might end up with some VBA crap, meaning I'd have to write a program either in VBA or somehow talking to VBA, which also understood the Thunderbird email format. Ugh. Instead, it was simple -- output CSV, attach it, email it.</p><p>Then I had to remember that CSV has that weird double-quotation-mark escaping rule. I also remembered that libraries exist -- which also saved me from dealing with IMAP. Oh, and I had to remember that a good way to get libraries for Ruby (my language of choice) is Rubygems. I suppose I could've avoided memorizing "sudo gem install \_\_", but knowing it offhand saves a lot of time.</p><p>Had I not remembered about libraries, I might not even have considered IMAP, and I might've badly mangled the CSV.</p><p>I also had to remember both that regular expressions exist, and how to use them. Most of the messages were easy enough to read as a multipart message, pulling the "to" field off the envelope (two more concepts I had to be familiar with; the fact that messages with attachments are called "multipart" and how multipart email works...)</p><p>Oh, and it also helped to know other assorted things -- like remembering how to add a user to my IMAP server, and how to create a secure connection between that and his Thunderbird (ended up just re-opening the VPN I set up years earlier -- but I had to remember how to enable it...)</p><p>And so on.</p><p>And this was a tiny, tiny project. Got it done in less than four hours, and that's dealing with a ton of weird permutations of possible emails, and a weird issue with his IMAP server.</p><p>Now imagine what it's like working on an actual full-blown software product.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Let the computer do the translating.</p></div><p>Do not want. All your base are belong to us.</p><p>You claim translation will eventually be good. Fine, but right now, it sucks, and it's going to continue to suck long after the original poster has learned whatever language they needed -- and there's still nuances of culture that you actually have to experience.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Got a little camera like the one in cell phones? Plug that camera into your hand held PC/internet/MP3player/telephone iTurd whatever. Point the camera at the kanji that you want translated. Press the button on the iTurd. Glance briefly at the little iTurd screen. Trust the iTurd ap program to have done an optical kanji recognition on the characters that it just imaged</p></div><p>Nope, OCR is still only, what, 99\% accurate? Think about it -- that's one mistake every hundred characters, which means at least one in this sentence. Humans reading OCR'd text may well be able to figure out what's missing, in the same way that we figure out where typos are, but you're then going to feed this into automated-translation software, which is already <i>considerably</i> less accurate. This is why OCR tends to be a <i>suppliment</i> to the image of said text, not a <i>replacement</i> for it.</p><p>It's possible I haven't been paying attention, and OCR has improved significantly lately, but a quick Google isn't especially promising.</p><p>Then there's the translation -- and again, do not want.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Tech people seem to have this obsession with doing things that prove to themselves and other people that they are 'smart'.</p></div><p>Well, yes. Partly because it's fun, and partly because a college degree will help me get a decent job, and likely a higher-paying job than someone without a degree. And my degree will require a foreign language.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>They believe that just because they have mastered technology, then they are under some obligation to themselves or their class that they must master all things that are difficult in order to recertify their 'smart person' credential.</p></div><p>That's sounding pretty dumb, especially given at least two of the things you mentioned don't require any intelligence at all, and the other two have the effect of <i>enhancing</i> intelligence.</p><p>For the record, I have <i>never</i> known a "smart person" to insist on doing this for that reason.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>memorize 5000 kanji, or play a difficult Bach invention on an aucostic piano</p></div><p>Learning a foreign language tends to increase IQ. So does listening to music in general, though I'm not entirely sure about playing music.</p><p>You're also implying that both of these are <i>inherently</i> a waste of time...</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Let the $200 computer master 50000 kanji</p></div><p>...if it can. And that still doesn't deal with the translation, which is going to require <i>at least</i> memorizing some words and phrases.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>let your $50 MIDI synth play Bach</p></div><p>Sorry, but no.</p><p>First of all, if you can play it yourself on a synth, is it really going to be terribly difficult for you to learn it on an acoustic piano?</p><p>More relevantly, people can tell the difference, especially the kinds of people who are listening to classical music. Synths don't yet capture what an actual instrument can do, any more than a recording can truly capture what a live performance is like. I'm not saying synths are bad or that Bach should never be played on a synth, but you seem to be suggesting that acoustic instruments are obsolete, and that's simply not the case, any more than real singing has been obsoleted by autotune.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>let your car take 20 miles in comfort</p></div><p>And watch your waistline expand.</p><p>Or are you suggesting that I should go to the gym? Great, then I get to use one machine to save myself from exercise, and another to inflict it on myself. No thanks, I'll cut out the middleman.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>let the expendable fools go to the other side of the world and get killed.</p></div><p>I honestly can't think of a single geek who's <i>ever</i> become a soldier to prove how <i>smart</i> they were. But you know what? The military is becoming high tech. Not everyone in the military is as expendable as everyone else, and "expendable fools" can't handle everything, even everything in the line of fire.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>I'm a better person because I didn't do it.</p></div><p>No, you're a lazier person because you didn't do it. Saying that you're a <i>better person</i> than anyone else is a pretty fucking arrogant claim, and the fact that you pussied out on some memorization makes you, at best, a <i>more efficient</i> person -- assuming you're right about technology catching up. It does <i>not</i> make you <i>better.</i> </p><p><div class="quote"><p>Please spare me the horseshit about how the discipline of memorizing and learning makes a better person and builds character.</p></div><p>Or it expands your mind -- both your IQ, and depending on what you're studying, it gives you some actual context. See the first part of this response.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Look at those assholes who spend their life memorizing the Quran, and then go blow up a bus or day-care center.</p></div><p>Not that it really matters, but citation needed. Where's your evidence that these assholes spend their entire life memorizing the Qur'an?</p><p>For that matter, that intelligence and context is a bit like raw muscle -- it doesn't dictate sanity, stability, or rationality, any more than muscle dictates violence or stupidity. It gives you an ability, and it's up to you to choose how to use it. And if you've been force-fed fundamentalist dogma your whole life, it takes more than raw intelligence to break free.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>So what that I can't pick up a Japanese newspaper and know what it says just by looking at it! I've got a $100 1GigaHertz 400MegaFlop microPC in my hand that does it just as well.</p></div><p>And how long does it take to do that?</p><p><div class="quote"><p>And I spent the 10000 hours smoking weed and fucking beautiful girls instead of memorizing kanji.</p></div><p>The weed might explain some things...</p><p>Those beautiful girls you fucked... Any of them Japanese? As another poster mentioned, were you able to whisper sweet nothings to them in Japanese? Or did you insist that they learn English? (You realize that makes you a racist cunt, don't you?) Or did you completely ignore what they said and assumed it meant harder and faster? (You realize that makes you an insensitive fuck, don't you?)</p><p>Or did you whip out your "iTurd" in the bedroom to figure out what she said?</p><p>Yes, sometimes you actually have to talk to people. With your mouth. And voice. And ears.</p><p>Now, lest you think I'm a luddite, I do use <a href="http://ichi2.net/anki/" title="ichi2.net">Anki</a> [ichi2.net]. That 10,000 hours is almost certainly going to be much less (by at least a solid factor of ten, if not more) if you've got that. But deciding that your computer can do it for you is just as retarded as deciding that you don't need to know anything about IT or programming because you know how to use Google. Memorization is not worth much by itself, but it gives you the building blocks to actually synthesize knowledge and understanding, and that is valuable beyond measure. (Well, maybe not quite beyond measure -- I could cite some statistics on the job placement rate and average salary of people graduating from the university I'm attending...)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>So let 's see : Do n't memorize anything.Flawed in many ways.First and foremost , you ca n't synthesize facts you do n't know .
As an example , someone recently hired me to sort through five thousand bounced emails and figure out how to turn them into a spreadsheet containing the actual failed email addresses.In order to do this , I had him put it on an IMAP server ( the last time he asked me to do this , it was already ) .
I then connected to it with a Ruby script using an IMAP library , parsed the relevant messages ( moving each message I successfully parsed to a different IMAP folder ) , refining my algorithm to parse the rest , and at each step , dumping the results to a CSV file ( trivially easy to generate ) which I knew he could open in Excel.At the very least , I had to understand what IMAP is , and where it fits into the picture .
Whenever someone gives me a similar problem , my first thought now is , " If I give you access to an IMAP server , you can click + drag all the email out of wherever it is and onto this common server that I can access from wherever I am .
It 's a stupidly simple and portable way for us to deal with whole folders worth of email .
" Now , it 's true that if I did n't know it was called IMAP , I could probably Google for something like " Email protocols " , read up on Wikipedia , and figure out which one I was talking about .
But what if I did n't remember such a thing existed ?
I might have been digging through whatever format Thunderbird uses for days -- I ca n't think of a reasonable way I would discover IMAP for this purpose , if I had n't already been exposed to it in some other way.There 's also CSV .
Again , without knowing about CSV , what would I Google ?
" How to get stuff into Excel " ?
At best , I might end up with some VBA crap , meaning I 'd have to write a program either in VBA or somehow talking to VBA , which also understood the Thunderbird email format .
Ugh. Instead , it was simple -- output CSV , attach it , email it.Then I had to remember that CSV has that weird double-quotation-mark escaping rule .
I also remembered that libraries exist -- which also saved me from dealing with IMAP .
Oh , and I had to remember that a good way to get libraries for Ruby ( my language of choice ) is Rubygems .
I suppose I could 've avoided memorizing " sudo gem install \ _ \ _ " , but knowing it offhand saves a lot of time.Had I not remembered about libraries , I might not even have considered IMAP , and I might 've badly mangled the CSV.I also had to remember both that regular expressions exist , and how to use them .
Most of the messages were easy enough to read as a multipart message , pulling the " to " field off the envelope ( two more concepts I had to be familiar with ; the fact that messages with attachments are called " multipart " and how multipart email works... ) Oh , and it also helped to know other assorted things -- like remembering how to add a user to my IMAP server , and how to create a secure connection between that and his Thunderbird ( ended up just re-opening the VPN I set up years earlier -- but I had to remember how to enable it... ) And so on.And this was a tiny , tiny project .
Got it done in less than four hours , and that 's dealing with a ton of weird permutations of possible emails , and a weird issue with his IMAP server.Now imagine what it 's like working on an actual full-blown software product.Let the computer do the translating.Do not want .
All your base are belong to us.You claim translation will eventually be good .
Fine , but right now , it sucks , and it 's going to continue to suck long after the original poster has learned whatever language they needed -- and there 's still nuances of culture that you actually have to experience.Got a little camera like the one in cell phones ?
Plug that camera into your hand held PC/internet/MP3player/telephone iTurd whatever .
Point the camera at the kanji that you want translated .
Press the button on the iTurd .
Glance briefly at the little iTurd screen .
Trust the iTurd ap program to have done an optical kanji recognition on the characters that it just imagedNope , OCR is still only , what , 99 \ % accurate ?
Think about it -- that 's one mistake every hundred characters , which means at least one in this sentence .
Humans reading OCR 'd text may well be able to figure out what 's missing , in the same way that we figure out where typos are , but you 're then going to feed this into automated-translation software , which is already considerably less accurate .
This is why OCR tends to be a suppliment to the image of said text , not a replacement for it.It 's possible I have n't been paying attention , and OCR has improved significantly lately , but a quick Google is n't especially promising.Then there 's the translation -- and again , do not want.Tech people seem to have this obsession with doing things that prove to themselves and other people that they are 'smart'.Well , yes .
Partly because it 's fun , and partly because a college degree will help me get a decent job , and likely a higher-paying job than someone without a degree .
And my degree will require a foreign language.They believe that just because they have mastered technology , then they are under some obligation to themselves or their class that they must master all things that are difficult in order to recertify their 'smart person ' credential.That 's sounding pretty dumb , especially given at least two of the things you mentioned do n't require any intelligence at all , and the other two have the effect of enhancing intelligence.For the record , I have never known a " smart person " to insist on doing this for that reason.memorize 5000 kanji , or play a difficult Bach invention on an aucostic pianoLearning a foreign language tends to increase IQ .
So does listening to music in general , though I 'm not entirely sure about playing music.You 're also implying that both of these are inherently a waste of time...Let the $ 200 computer master 50000 kanji...if it can .
And that still does n't deal with the translation , which is going to require at least memorizing some words and phrases.let your $ 50 MIDI synth play BachSorry , but no.First of all , if you can play it yourself on a synth , is it really going to be terribly difficult for you to learn it on an acoustic piano ? More relevantly , people can tell the difference , especially the kinds of people who are listening to classical music .
Synths do n't yet capture what an actual instrument can do , any more than a recording can truly capture what a live performance is like .
I 'm not saying synths are bad or that Bach should never be played on a synth , but you seem to be suggesting that acoustic instruments are obsolete , and that 's simply not the case , any more than real singing has been obsoleted by autotune.let your car take 20 miles in comfortAnd watch your waistline expand.Or are you suggesting that I should go to the gym ?
Great , then I get to use one machine to save myself from exercise , and another to inflict it on myself .
No thanks , I 'll cut out the middleman.let the expendable fools go to the other side of the world and get killed.I honestly ca n't think of a single geek who 's ever become a soldier to prove how smart they were .
But you know what ?
The military is becoming high tech .
Not everyone in the military is as expendable as everyone else , and " expendable fools " ca n't handle everything , even everything in the line of fire.I 'm a better person because I did n't do it.No , you 're a lazier person because you did n't do it .
Saying that you 're a better person than anyone else is a pretty fucking arrogant claim , and the fact that you pussied out on some memorization makes you , at best , a more efficient person -- assuming you 're right about technology catching up .
It does not make you better .
Please spare me the horseshit about how the discipline of memorizing and learning makes a better person and builds character.Or it expands your mind -- both your IQ , and depending on what you 're studying , it gives you some actual context .
See the first part of this response.Look at those assholes who spend their life memorizing the Quran , and then go blow up a bus or day-care center.Not that it really matters , but citation needed .
Where 's your evidence that these assholes spend their entire life memorizing the Qur'an ? For that matter , that intelligence and context is a bit like raw muscle -- it does n't dictate sanity , stability , or rationality , any more than muscle dictates violence or stupidity .
It gives you an ability , and it 's up to you to choose how to use it .
And if you 've been force-fed fundamentalist dogma your whole life , it takes more than raw intelligence to break free.So what that I ca n't pick up a Japanese newspaper and know what it says just by looking at it !
I 've got a $ 100 1GigaHertz 400MegaFlop microPC in my hand that does it just as well.And how long does it take to do that ? And I spent the 10000 hours smoking weed and fucking beautiful girls instead of memorizing kanji.The weed might explain some things...Those beautiful girls you fucked... Any of them Japanese ?
As another poster mentioned , were you able to whisper sweet nothings to them in Japanese ?
Or did you insist that they learn English ?
( You realize that makes you a racist cunt , do n't you ?
) Or did you completely ignore what they said and assumed it meant harder and faster ?
( You realize that makes you an insensitive fuck , do n't you ?
) Or did you whip out your " iTurd " in the bedroom to figure out what she said ? Yes , sometimes you actually have to talk to people .
With your mouth .
And voice .
And ears.Now , lest you think I 'm a luddite , I do use Anki [ ichi2.net ] .
That 10,000 hours is almost certainly going to be much less ( by at least a solid factor of ten , if not more ) if you 've got that .
But deciding that your computer can do it for you is just as retarded as deciding that you do n't need to know anything about IT or programming because you know how to use Google .
Memorization is not worth much by itself , but it gives you the building blocks to actually synthesize knowledge and understanding , and that is valuable beyond measure .
( Well , maybe not quite beyond measure -- I could cite some statistics on the job placement rate and average salary of people graduating from the university I 'm attending... )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So let's see:Don't memorize anything.Flawed in many ways.First and foremost, you can't synthesize facts you don't know.
As an example, someone recently hired me to sort through five thousand bounced emails and figure out how to turn them into a spreadsheet containing the actual failed email addresses.In order to do this, I had him put it on an IMAP server (the last time he asked me to do this, it was already).
I then connected to it with a Ruby script using an IMAP library, parsed the relevant messages (moving each message I successfully parsed to a different IMAP folder), refining my algorithm to parse the rest, and at each step, dumping the results to a CSV file (trivially easy to generate) which I knew he could open in Excel.At the very least, I had to understand what IMAP is, and where it fits into the picture.
Whenever someone gives me a similar problem, my first thought now is, "If I give you access to an IMAP server, you can click+drag all the email out of wherever it is and onto this common server that I can access from wherever I am.
It's a stupidly simple and portable way for us to deal with whole folders worth of email.
"Now, it's true that if I didn't know it was called IMAP, I could probably Google for something like "Email protocols", read up on Wikipedia, and figure out which one I was talking about.
But what if I didn't remember such a thing existed?
I might have been digging through whatever format Thunderbird uses for days -- I can't think of a reasonable way I would discover IMAP for this purpose, if I hadn't already been exposed to it in some other way.There's also CSV.
Again, without knowing about CSV, what would I Google?
"How to get stuff into Excel"?
At best, I might end up with some VBA crap, meaning I'd have to write a program either in VBA or somehow talking to VBA, which also understood the Thunderbird email format.
Ugh. Instead, it was simple -- output CSV, attach it, email it.Then I had to remember that CSV has that weird double-quotation-mark escaping rule.
I also remembered that libraries exist -- which also saved me from dealing with IMAP.
Oh, and I had to remember that a good way to get libraries for Ruby (my language of choice) is Rubygems.
I suppose I could've avoided memorizing "sudo gem install \_\_", but knowing it offhand saves a lot of time.Had I not remembered about libraries, I might not even have considered IMAP, and I might've badly mangled the CSV.I also had to remember both that regular expressions exist, and how to use them.
Most of the messages were easy enough to read as a multipart message, pulling the "to" field off the envelope (two more concepts I had to be familiar with; the fact that messages with attachments are called "multipart" and how multipart email works...)Oh, and it also helped to know other assorted things -- like remembering how to add a user to my IMAP server, and how to create a secure connection between that and his Thunderbird (ended up just re-opening the VPN I set up years earlier -- but I had to remember how to enable it...)And so on.And this was a tiny, tiny project.
Got it done in less than four hours, and that's dealing with a ton of weird permutations of possible emails, and a weird issue with his IMAP server.Now imagine what it's like working on an actual full-blown software product.Let the computer do the translating.Do not want.
All your base are belong to us.You claim translation will eventually be good.
Fine, but right now, it sucks, and it's going to continue to suck long after the original poster has learned whatever language they needed -- and there's still nuances of culture that you actually have to experience.Got a little camera like the one in cell phones?
Plug that camera into your hand held PC/internet/MP3player/telephone iTurd whatever.
Point the camera at the kanji that you want translated.
Press the button on the iTurd.
Glance briefly at the little iTurd screen.
Trust the iTurd ap program to have done an optical kanji recognition on the characters that it just imagedNope, OCR is still only, what, 99\% accurate?
Think about it -- that's one mistake every hundred characters, which means at least one in this sentence.
Humans reading OCR'd text may well be able to figure out what's missing, in the same way that we figure out where typos are, but you're then going to feed this into automated-translation software, which is already considerably less accurate.
This is why OCR tends to be a suppliment to the image of said text, not a replacement for it.It's possible I haven't been paying attention, and OCR has improved significantly lately, but a quick Google isn't especially promising.Then there's the translation -- and again, do not want.Tech people seem to have this obsession with doing things that prove to themselves and other people that they are 'smart'.Well, yes.
Partly because it's fun, and partly because a college degree will help me get a decent job, and likely a higher-paying job than someone without a degree.
And my degree will require a foreign language.They believe that just because they have mastered technology, then they are under some obligation to themselves or their class that they must master all things that are difficult in order to recertify their 'smart person' credential.That's sounding pretty dumb, especially given at least two of the things you mentioned don't require any intelligence at all, and the other two have the effect of enhancing intelligence.For the record, I have never known a "smart person" to insist on doing this for that reason.memorize 5000 kanji, or play a difficult Bach invention on an aucostic pianoLearning a foreign language tends to increase IQ.
So does listening to music in general, though I'm not entirely sure about playing music.You're also implying that both of these are inherently a waste of time...Let the $200 computer master 50000 kanji...if it can.
And that still doesn't deal with the translation, which is going to require at least memorizing some words and phrases.let your $50 MIDI synth play BachSorry, but no.First of all, if you can play it yourself on a synth, is it really going to be terribly difficult for you to learn it on an acoustic piano?More relevantly, people can tell the difference, especially the kinds of people who are listening to classical music.
Synths don't yet capture what an actual instrument can do, any more than a recording can truly capture what a live performance is like.
I'm not saying synths are bad or that Bach should never be played on a synth, but you seem to be suggesting that acoustic instruments are obsolete, and that's simply not the case, any more than real singing has been obsoleted by autotune.let your car take 20 miles in comfortAnd watch your waistline expand.Or are you suggesting that I should go to the gym?
Great, then I get to use one machine to save myself from exercise, and another to inflict it on myself.
No thanks, I'll cut out the middleman.let the expendable fools go to the other side of the world and get killed.I honestly can't think of a single geek who's ever become a soldier to prove how smart they were.
But you know what?
The military is becoming high tech.
Not everyone in the military is as expendable as everyone else, and "expendable fools" can't handle everything, even everything in the line of fire.I'm a better person because I didn't do it.No, you're a lazier person because you didn't do it.
Saying that you're a better person than anyone else is a pretty fucking arrogant claim, and the fact that you pussied out on some memorization makes you, at best, a more efficient person -- assuming you're right about technology catching up.
It does not make you better.
Please spare me the horseshit about how the discipline of memorizing and learning makes a better person and builds character.Or it expands your mind -- both your IQ, and depending on what you're studying, it gives you some actual context.
See the first part of this response.Look at those assholes who spend their life memorizing the Quran, and then go blow up a bus or day-care center.Not that it really matters, but citation needed.
Where's your evidence that these assholes spend their entire life memorizing the Qur'an?For that matter, that intelligence and context is a bit like raw muscle -- it doesn't dictate sanity, stability, or rationality, any more than muscle dictates violence or stupidity.
It gives you an ability, and it's up to you to choose how to use it.
And if you've been force-fed fundamentalist dogma your whole life, it takes more than raw intelligence to break free.So what that I can't pick up a Japanese newspaper and know what it says just by looking at it!
I've got a $100 1GigaHertz 400MegaFlop microPC in my hand that does it just as well.And how long does it take to do that?And I spent the 10000 hours smoking weed and fucking beautiful girls instead of memorizing kanji.The weed might explain some things...Those beautiful girls you fucked... Any of them Japanese?
As another poster mentioned, were you able to whisper sweet nothings to them in Japanese?
Or did you insist that they learn English?
(You realize that makes you a racist cunt, don't you?
) Or did you completely ignore what they said and assumed it meant harder and faster?
(You realize that makes you an insensitive fuck, don't you?
)Or did you whip out your "iTurd" in the bedroom to figure out what she said?Yes, sometimes you actually have to talk to people.
With your mouth.
And voice.
And ears.Now, lest you think I'm a luddite, I do use Anki [ichi2.net].
That 10,000 hours is almost certainly going to be much less (by at least a solid factor of ten, if not more) if you've got that.
But deciding that your computer can do it for you is just as retarded as deciding that you don't need to know anything about IT or programming because you know how to use Google.
Memorization is not worth much by itself, but it gives you the building blocks to actually synthesize knowledge and understanding, and that is valuable beyond measure.
(Well, maybe not quite beyond measure -- I could cite some statistics on the job placement rate and average salary of people graduating from the university I'm attending...)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31553082</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31559606</id>
	<title>A book full of mnemonics:</title>
	<author>Inyu</author>
	<datestamp>1269162180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Titled "Chinese Characters: Learn &amp; Remember 2,178 Characters", by Alan Hoenig, and yes, I use memorization software both SuperMemo and Anki, yet I still recommend this wonderful book. It gets you on the right track by offering the characters in the order of increasing graphical complexity, in a way that nearly each following character can be constructed from the preceding characters as its building blocks,... and it does so by providing sufficiently short yet effective mnemonics.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Titled " Chinese Characters : Learn &amp; Remember 2,178 Characters " , by Alan Hoenig , and yes , I use memorization software both SuperMemo and Anki , yet I still recommend this wonderful book .
It gets you on the right track by offering the characters in the order of increasing graphical complexity , in a way that nearly each following character can be constructed from the preceding characters as its building blocks,... and it does so by providing sufficiently short yet effective mnemonics .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Titled "Chinese Characters: Learn &amp; Remember 2,178 Characters", by Alan Hoenig, and yes, I use memorization software both SuperMemo and Anki, yet I still recommend this wonderful book.
It gets you on the right track by offering the characters in the order of increasing graphical complexity, in a way that nearly each following character can be constructed from the preceding characters as its building blocks,... and it does so by providing sufficiently short yet effective mnemonics.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31555486</id>
	<title>Fun idea</title>
	<author>bytesmythe</author>
	<datestamp>1269112140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There is an online comic called Sinfest that occasionally has "cartoon-to-calligraphy" transformations that are interesting.</p><p>If you go to <a href="http://www.sinfest.net/archive.php" title="sinfest.net">the archive</a> [sinfest.net] and search for "calligraphy", you can pull up all the relevant strips. They will make more sense if you're a regular reader. Also, I probably wouldn't suggest using these for kids, but if you were creative, you could probably come up with similar types of drawings on your own.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is an online comic called Sinfest that occasionally has " cartoon-to-calligraphy " transformations that are interesting.If you go to the archive [ sinfest.net ] and search for " calligraphy " , you can pull up all the relevant strips .
They will make more sense if you 're a regular reader .
Also , I probably would n't suggest using these for kids , but if you were creative , you could probably come up with similar types of drawings on your own .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is an online comic called Sinfest that occasionally has "cartoon-to-calligraphy" transformations that are interesting.If you go to the archive [sinfest.net] and search for "calligraphy", you can pull up all the relevant strips.
They will make more sense if you're a regular reader.
Also, I probably wouldn't suggest using these for kids, but if you were creative, you could probably come up with similar types of drawings on your own.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551792</id>
	<title>Why not ask the teachers?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269077160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wouldn't this be something you could get best from their teachers?  Not that there's anything wrong with asking Google or Slashdot, but the first place I would go is to their teachers.  One would think - or at least hope - that they would have additional tools they could give you to help your kids study.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Would n't this be something you could get best from their teachers ?
Not that there 's anything wrong with asking Google or Slashdot , but the first place I would go is to their teachers .
One would think - or at least hope - that they would have additional tools they could give you to help your kids study .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wouldn't this be something you could get best from their teachers?
Not that there's anything wrong with asking Google or Slashdot, but the first place I would go is to their teachers.
One would think - or at least hope - that they would have additional tools they could give you to help your kids study.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31555136</id>
	<title>Immersion, Immersion, Immersion</title>
	<author>vampire\_baozi</author>
	<datestamp>1269106800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Immerse yourself in the language.  Write it and speak it every day.  For some, this means living in the country; for others, date someone whose native language is the one you're trying to learn (and who doesn't have any other language in common with you; for example, my girlfriend speaks English, but my Chinese is much better than her English, so we always speak Chinese to each other, as it feels much more natural).</p><p>But yeah, do anything and everything that increases exposure.  Flash cards are just one way.  Set interfaces in Chinese, watch stuff with Chinese subtitles, etc. After spending a few summers in China, and spending much of my time with Chinese graduate students here (and having a Chinese girlfriend....), I often find myself thinking in Chinese, or mentally translating from Chinese into English, or pirating things with Chinese subtitles because it's faster for me to read Chinese subtitles.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Immerse yourself in the language .
Write it and speak it every day .
For some , this means living in the country ; for others , date someone whose native language is the one you 're trying to learn ( and who does n't have any other language in common with you ; for example , my girlfriend speaks English , but my Chinese is much better than her English , so we always speak Chinese to each other , as it feels much more natural ) .But yeah , do anything and everything that increases exposure .
Flash cards are just one way .
Set interfaces in Chinese , watch stuff with Chinese subtitles , etc .
After spending a few summers in China , and spending much of my time with Chinese graduate students here ( and having a Chinese girlfriend.... ) , I often find myself thinking in Chinese , or mentally translating from Chinese into English , or pirating things with Chinese subtitles because it 's faster for me to read Chinese subtitles .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Immerse yourself in the language.
Write it and speak it every day.
For some, this means living in the country; for others, date someone whose native language is the one you're trying to learn (and who doesn't have any other language in common with you; for example, my girlfriend speaks English, but my Chinese is much better than her English, so we always speak Chinese to each other, as it feels much more natural).But yeah, do anything and everything that increases exposure.
Flash cards are just one way.
Set interfaces in Chinese, watch stuff with Chinese subtitles, etc.
After spending a few summers in China, and spending much of my time with Chinese graduate students here (and having a Chinese girlfriend....), I often find myself thinking in Chinese, or mentally translating from Chinese into English, or pirating things with Chinese subtitles because it's faster for me to read Chinese subtitles.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31554202</id>
	<title>Re:Flashcards</title>
	<author>gijoel</author>
	<datestamp>1269095700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You could always go with the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leitner\_system" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">Leitner system</a> [wikipedia.org]. The main focus of the system is to drill the flash cards you have problems as opposed to all of them.

<br> <br>
<a href="http://www.mnemosyne-proj.org/index.php" title="mnemosyne-proj.org" rel="nofollow">Mnemosyne</a> [mnemosyne-proj.org] is a nice simple open sourced program capable of being used across several platform. Here's a <a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/withinjapandotcom#p/a/u/0/8p1WDb5f\_ro" title="youtube.com" rel="nofollow"> bunch of videos</a> [youtube.com] a guy put together on using it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You could always go with the Leitner system [ wikipedia.org ] .
The main focus of the system is to drill the flash cards you have problems as opposed to all of them .
Mnemosyne [ mnemosyne-proj.org ] is a nice simple open sourced program capable of being used across several platform .
Here 's a bunch of videos [ youtube.com ] a guy put together on using it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You could always go with the Leitner system [wikipedia.org].
The main focus of the system is to drill the flash cards you have problems as opposed to all of them.
Mnemosyne [mnemosyne-proj.org] is a nice simple open sourced program capable of being used across several platform.
Here's a  bunch of videos [youtube.com] a guy put together on using it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551758</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31554444</id>
	<title>Re:Flashcards</title>
	<author>pdp1144</author>
	<datestamp>1269098160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I used flashcards to learn Egyptian Hieroglyphics, learn Greek grammar and learn the Cyrillic alphabet.

When I pick up Chinese I will use them again.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I used flashcards to learn Egyptian Hieroglyphics , learn Greek grammar and learn the Cyrillic alphabet .
When I pick up Chinese I will use them again .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I used flashcards to learn Egyptian Hieroglyphics, learn Greek grammar and learn the Cyrillic alphabet.
When I pick up Chinese I will use them again.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551758</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31555276</id>
	<title>I married one</title>
	<author>NotesSensei</author>
	<datestamp>1269109080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Doesn't help. The kids complaining "Mother always wants us to sit and learn and it is no fun"</htmltext>
<tokenext>Does n't help .
The kids complaining " Mother always wants us to sit and learn and it is no fun "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Doesn't help.
The kids complaining "Mother always wants us to sit and learn and it is no fun"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551770</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552144</id>
	<title>chinese/japanese are visual concepts, not sounds..</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269079860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>make your own flashcards and you learn to write the character at the same time that you are learning to read it and say it. Use them often and practice memorization. I studied Japanese for years and that helped me a lot. The characters are complete concepts that are added together to modify each other and the whole thing is visual, not phonetic. Even though Japanese has hiragana and katakana they are not an alphabet, they are patch sounds to blend characters or to be used as furigana to show how to read difficult readings of characters.</p><p>Chinese of course has no need for hiragana and katakana and the modern mainland chinese has simplified characters that are easier to draw.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>make your own flashcards and you learn to write the character at the same time that you are learning to read it and say it .
Use them often and practice memorization .
I studied Japanese for years and that helped me a lot .
The characters are complete concepts that are added together to modify each other and the whole thing is visual , not phonetic .
Even though Japanese has hiragana and katakana they are not an alphabet , they are patch sounds to blend characters or to be used as furigana to show how to read difficult readings of characters.Chinese of course has no need for hiragana and katakana and the modern mainland chinese has simplified characters that are easier to draw .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>make your own flashcards and you learn to write the character at the same time that you are learning to read it and say it.
Use them often and practice memorization.
I studied Japanese for years and that helped me a lot.
The characters are complete concepts that are added together to modify each other and the whole thing is visual, not phonetic.
Even though Japanese has hiragana and katakana they are not an alphabet, they are patch sounds to blend characters or to be used as furigana to show how to read difficult readings of characters.Chinese of course has no need for hiragana and katakana and the modern mainland chinese has simplified characters that are easier to draw.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31556228</id>
	<title>Re:Radical Spelling</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269169260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The Japanese ones are organized that way. You would have to put some effort into finding a Chinese dictionary organized by radical because everyone uses the ones organized alphabetically by Pinyin pronunciation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The Japanese ones are organized that way .
You would have to put some effort into finding a Chinese dictionary organized by radical because everyone uses the ones organized alphabetically by Pinyin pronunciation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The Japanese ones are organized that way.
You would have to put some effort into finding a Chinese dictionary organized by radical because everyone uses the ones organized alphabetically by Pinyin pronunciation.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551778</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552066</id>
	<title>Heisig's technique</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269079260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>James W. Heisig, a researcher at the Nanzan Institute for Religion and Culture in Nagoya, Japan, has released an excellent set of books for memorizing Japanese Kanji, traditional Chinese Hanzi, and simplified Chinese Hanzi:</p><p>Remembering the Kanji:<br><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Kanji-Vol-Complete-Characters/dp/0824831659/ref=sr\_1\_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1269118367&amp;sr=8-1" title="amazon.com">http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Kanji-Vol-Complete-Characters/dp/0824831659/ref=sr\_1\_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1269118367&amp;sr=8-1</a> [amazon.com]</p><p>Remembering the Traditional Hanzi:<br><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Traditional-Hanzi-Meaning-Characters/dp/0824833244/ref=ntt\_at\_ep\_dpi\_5" title="amazon.com">http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Traditional-Hanzi-Meaning-Characters/dp/0824833244/ref=ntt\_at\_ep\_dpi\_5</a> [amazon.com]</p><p>Remembering the Simplified Hanzi:<br><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Simplified-Hanzi-Meaning-Characters/dp/0824833236/ref=pd\_bxgy\_b\_img\_b" title="amazon.com">http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Simplified-Hanzi-Meaning-Characters/dp/0824833236/ref=pd\_bxgy\_b\_img\_b</a> [amazon.com]</p><p>While this technique focuses on memorizing the meaning of the characters (and how to write them yourself) and not so much on the readings of them, I've found it an absolutely invaluable technique for doing the former. I have an abysmal memory to the point that it's shocking, and yet using his techniques, I was able to easily memorize the meaning of about 400 characters and how to write them in a couple of weeks with only a couple of hours of dedication a day, which I was very impressed with. His technique is based on building up from simple radicals and employing visual memory to make everything stick in place, which basically means concocting an elaborate and often ridiculous story for each character to tie the correct radicals into their correct places. The story is usually so silly that it cannot be forgotten, which is, IMO, in where the trick lies. As your skill in recall develops, you can let go of the stories and move to natural recall.</p><p>Also, the use of timed memorization software is essential when we're talking about this amount of information. Here are two great free software packages for this that were largely based specifically at learning Japanese (and thus are quite suitable for other languages, especially Chinese):</p><p>Anki:<br><a href="http://ichi2.net/anki" title="ichi2.net">http://ichi2.net/anki</a> [ichi2.net]</p><p>Mnemosyne:<br><a href="http://www.mnemosyne-proj.org/" title="mnemosyne-proj.org">http://www.mnemosyne-proj.org/</a> [mnemosyne-proj.org]</p><p>(Personally, I prefer Mnemosyne a bit more, even though Anki has many more features, but this is because I'm making a set of cards to memorize all of Heisig's Kanji, traditional Hanzi, and simplified Hanzi, and I'm using HTML tables to store all the information. Mnemosyne preserves my HTML exactly, whereas Anki futzes with it and ruins the formatting.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>James W. Heisig , a researcher at the Nanzan Institute for Religion and Culture in Nagoya , Japan , has released an excellent set of books for memorizing Japanese Kanji , traditional Chinese Hanzi , and simplified Chinese Hanzi : Remembering the Kanji : http : //www.amazon.com/Remembering-Kanji-Vol-Complete-Characters/dp/0824831659/ref = sr \ _1 \ _1 ? ie = UTF8&amp;s = books&amp;qid = 1269118367&amp;sr = 8-1 [ amazon.com ] Remembering the Traditional Hanzi : http : //www.amazon.com/Remembering-Traditional-Hanzi-Meaning-Characters/dp/0824833244/ref = ntt \ _at \ _ep \ _dpi \ _5 [ amazon.com ] Remembering the Simplified Hanzi : http : //www.amazon.com/Remembering-Simplified-Hanzi-Meaning-Characters/dp/0824833236/ref = pd \ _bxgy \ _b \ _img \ _b [ amazon.com ] While this technique focuses on memorizing the meaning of the characters ( and how to write them yourself ) and not so much on the readings of them , I 've found it an absolutely invaluable technique for doing the former .
I have an abysmal memory to the point that it 's shocking , and yet using his techniques , I was able to easily memorize the meaning of about 400 characters and how to write them in a couple of weeks with only a couple of hours of dedication a day , which I was very impressed with .
His technique is based on building up from simple radicals and employing visual memory to make everything stick in place , which basically means concocting an elaborate and often ridiculous story for each character to tie the correct radicals into their correct places .
The story is usually so silly that it can not be forgotten , which is , IMO , in where the trick lies .
As your skill in recall develops , you can let go of the stories and move to natural recall.Also , the use of timed memorization software is essential when we 're talking about this amount of information .
Here are two great free software packages for this that were largely based specifically at learning Japanese ( and thus are quite suitable for other languages , especially Chinese ) : Anki : http : //ichi2.net/anki [ ichi2.net ] Mnemosyne : http : //www.mnemosyne-proj.org/ [ mnemosyne-proj.org ] ( Personally , I prefer Mnemosyne a bit more , even though Anki has many more features , but this is because I 'm making a set of cards to memorize all of Heisig 's Kanji , traditional Hanzi , and simplified Hanzi , and I 'm using HTML tables to store all the information .
Mnemosyne preserves my HTML exactly , whereas Anki futzes with it and ruins the formatting .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>James W. Heisig, a researcher at the Nanzan Institute for Religion and Culture in Nagoya, Japan, has released an excellent set of books for memorizing Japanese Kanji, traditional Chinese Hanzi, and simplified Chinese Hanzi:Remembering the Kanji:http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Kanji-Vol-Complete-Characters/dp/0824831659/ref=sr\_1\_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1269118367&amp;sr=8-1 [amazon.com]Remembering the Traditional Hanzi:http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Traditional-Hanzi-Meaning-Characters/dp/0824833244/ref=ntt\_at\_ep\_dpi\_5 [amazon.com]Remembering the Simplified Hanzi:http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Simplified-Hanzi-Meaning-Characters/dp/0824833236/ref=pd\_bxgy\_b\_img\_b [amazon.com]While this technique focuses on memorizing the meaning of the characters (and how to write them yourself) and not so much on the readings of them, I've found it an absolutely invaluable technique for doing the former.
I have an abysmal memory to the point that it's shocking, and yet using his techniques, I was able to easily memorize the meaning of about 400 characters and how to write them in a couple of weeks with only a couple of hours of dedication a day, which I was very impressed with.
His technique is based on building up from simple radicals and employing visual memory to make everything stick in place, which basically means concocting an elaborate and often ridiculous story for each character to tie the correct radicals into their correct places.
The story is usually so silly that it cannot be forgotten, which is, IMO, in where the trick lies.
As your skill in recall develops, you can let go of the stories and move to natural recall.Also, the use of timed memorization software is essential when we're talking about this amount of information.
Here are two great free software packages for this that were largely based specifically at learning Japanese (and thus are quite suitable for other languages, especially Chinese):Anki:http://ichi2.net/anki [ichi2.net]Mnemosyne:http://www.mnemosyne-proj.org/ [mnemosyne-proj.org](Personally, I prefer Mnemosyne a bit more, even though Anki has many more features, but this is because I'm making a set of cards to memorize all of Heisig's Kanji, traditional Hanzi, and simplified Hanzi, and I'm using HTML tables to store all the information.
Mnemosyne preserves my HTML exactly, whereas Anki futzes with it and ruins the formatting.
)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31553746</id>
	<title>...but generalized!</title>
	<author>Hurricane78</author>
	<datestamp>1269091800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This can be generalized: Any technique that is usable for memorizing a vocabulary, are also good for memorizing Chinese characters. Since they are more words than letters.</p><p>Take the best ones, and you&rsquo;re good.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This can be generalized : Any technique that is usable for memorizing a vocabulary , are also good for memorizing Chinese characters .
Since they are more words than letters.Take the best ones , and you    re good .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This can be generalized: Any technique that is usable for memorizing a vocabulary, are also good for memorizing Chinese characters.
Since they are more words than letters.Take the best ones, and you’re good.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551758</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551826</id>
	<title>Flashcards</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269077400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Flashcards. I would have never gotten through grade school math without them. I have terrible ( self-diagnosed ) ADD, procrastination, and aversion to doing anything difficult and repetitive. Math was beyond me. I would have flunked out of grade school if my mom hadn't sat me down with the flash cards every night.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Flashcards .
I would have never gotten through grade school math without them .
I have terrible ( self-diagnosed ) ADD , procrastination , and aversion to doing anything difficult and repetitive .
Math was beyond me .
I would have flunked out of grade school if my mom had n't sat me down with the flash cards every night .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Flashcards.
I would have never gotten through grade school math without them.
I have terrible ( self-diagnosed ) ADD, procrastination, and aversion to doing anything difficult and repetitive.
Math was beyond me.
I would have flunked out of grade school if my mom hadn't sat me down with the flash cards every night.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31554864</id>
	<title>Re:Heisig's technique</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269102900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><a href="http://kanji.koohii.com/" title="koohii.com" rel="nofollow">http://kanji.koohii.com/</a> [koohii.com] <br>
<br>
You should have linked to Koohii when you mentioned Heisig's books as the site allows people to post their own stories for the character's, which one might find easier to remember than the ones Heisig builds up.</htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //kanji.koohii.com/ [ koohii.com ] You should have linked to Koohii when you mentioned Heisig 's books as the site allows people to post their own stories for the character 's , which one might find easier to remember than the ones Heisig builds up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://kanji.koohii.com/ [koohii.com] 

You should have linked to Koohii when you mentioned Heisig's books as the site allows people to post their own stories for the character's, which one might find easier to remember than the ones Heisig builds up.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552066</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31553992</id>
	<title>Re:A proven technique</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269094020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There's some truth in this. The best way to learn a language, in my opinion (which was developed through experience). Definitely do it... it's like having a personal tutor with benefits<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's some truth in this .
The best way to learn a language , in my opinion ( which was developed through experience ) .
Definitely do it... it 's like having a personal tutor with benefits ; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's some truth in this.
The best way to learn a language, in my opinion (which was developed through experience).
Definitely do it... it's like having a personal tutor with benefits ;)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551770</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31556176</id>
	<title>Re:Flashcards</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269168420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think flashcards helps a lot when learning chinese and japanese. combine them with mnemonics on the b side of the card and youre halfway there! theres also an online tool for this called linguar.com which lets you create your own lists.. i use it quite regularly to practice on my japanese exam!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think flashcards helps a lot when learning chinese and japanese .
combine them with mnemonics on the b side of the card and youre halfway there !
theres also an online tool for this called linguar.com which lets you create your own lists.. i use it quite regularly to practice on my japanese exam !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think flashcards helps a lot when learning chinese and japanese.
combine them with mnemonics on the b side of the card and youre halfway there!
theres also an online tool for this called linguar.com which lets you create your own lists.. i use it quite regularly to practice on my japanese exam!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551758</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31554040</id>
	<title>Re:Repetition. Repetition. Repetition.</title>
	<author>labadie3</author>
	<datestamp>1269094440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Eh<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... you are correct that learning the language just takes repetition, but there is quite a lot of both rhyme and reason behind the characters and how they come together.  One of the six classifications of characters is indeed based on the sound of the character (homonyms with different radicals)</p><p>The radicals and characters fit together, and have evolved over time like any language.  The best book that covers all of this, and traces the evolution of character components to the modern set is covered in CHINESE CHARACTERS, Their Origin, Etymology, History, Classification and Signification by Dr. L. Wieger, S.J. (http://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Characters-Dover-books-language/dp/0486213218).  A true understanding of the Chinese language requires understanding how the language came to be what it is today, and is a lesson in both Chinese culture and Chinese history at the same time.  I hope you all enjoy your adventures into the language as much as I did back when I started.</p><p>I started studying Chinese in 1996, and the book above is still one of my favorites for understanding the structure behind the language that all native Chinese just know.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Eh ... you are correct that learning the language just takes repetition , but there is quite a lot of both rhyme and reason behind the characters and how they come together .
One of the six classifications of characters is indeed based on the sound of the character ( homonyms with different radicals ) The radicals and characters fit together , and have evolved over time like any language .
The best book that covers all of this , and traces the evolution of character components to the modern set is covered in CHINESE CHARACTERS , Their Origin , Etymology , History , Classification and Signification by Dr. L. Wieger , S.J .
( http : //www.amazon.com/Chinese-Characters-Dover-books-language/dp/0486213218 ) . A true understanding of the Chinese language requires understanding how the language came to be what it is today , and is a lesson in both Chinese culture and Chinese history at the same time .
I hope you all enjoy your adventures into the language as much as I did back when I started.I started studying Chinese in 1996 , and the book above is still one of my favorites for understanding the structure behind the language that all native Chinese just know .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Eh ... you are correct that learning the language just takes repetition, but there is quite a lot of both rhyme and reason behind the characters and how they come together.
One of the six classifications of characters is indeed based on the sound of the character (homonyms with different radicals)The radicals and characters fit together, and have evolved over time like any language.
The best book that covers all of this, and traces the evolution of character components to the modern set is covered in CHINESE CHARACTERS, Their Origin, Etymology, History, Classification and Signification by Dr. L. Wieger, S.J.
(http://www.amazon.com/Chinese-Characters-Dover-books-language/dp/0486213218).  A true understanding of the Chinese language requires understanding how the language came to be what it is today, and is a lesson in both Chinese culture and Chinese history at the same time.
I hope you all enjoy your adventures into the language as much as I did back when I started.I started studying Chinese in 1996, and the book above is still one of my favorites for understanding the structure behind the language that all native Chinese just know.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551764</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31555986</id>
	<title>One of the best writing tools..</title>
	<author>davidpbrown</author>
	<datestamp>1269165660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><a href="http://www.skritter.com/" title="skritter.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.skritter.com/</a> [skritter.com]</p><p>Just draw the characters with a mouse and it'll remember your progress, returning to characters in short, medium and long periods that help reinforce long term memory.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //www.skritter.com/ [ skritter.com ] Just draw the characters with a mouse and it 'll remember your progress , returning to characters in short , medium and long periods that help reinforce long term memory .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://www.skritter.com/ [skritter.com]Just draw the characters with a mouse and it'll remember your progress, returning to characters in short, medium and long periods that help reinforce long term memory.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31553314</id>
	<title>Re:Use it or lose it</title>
	<author>Faerunner</author>
	<datestamp>1269088260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Reading and partaking of other media in Chinese (or any other language you decide to learn) is a great idea. Seconding the movies, radio and newspapers. Also, have them write. Writing in another language is really tough, because it not only requires the learner to come up with the right vocabulary but to put it down on paper, which gives you more practice not only remembering but producing the proper spellings, accents, etc (and in this case, remembering and producing the correct symbols).</htmltext>
<tokenext>Reading and partaking of other media in Chinese ( or any other language you decide to learn ) is a great idea .
Seconding the movies , radio and newspapers .
Also , have them write .
Writing in another language is really tough , because it not only requires the learner to come up with the right vocabulary but to put it down on paper , which gives you more practice not only remembering but producing the proper spellings , accents , etc ( and in this case , remembering and producing the correct symbols ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Reading and partaking of other media in Chinese (or any other language you decide to learn) is a great idea.
Seconding the movies, radio and newspapers.
Also, have them write.
Writing in another language is really tough, because it not only requires the learner to come up with the right vocabulary but to put it down on paper, which gives you more practice not only remembering but producing the proper spellings, accents, etc (and in this case, remembering and producing the correct symbols).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552334</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31555548</id>
	<title>Open source Chinese learning software</title>
	<author>charlie137</author>
	<datestamp>1269113340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>People interested can check this project : <a href="http://code.google.com/p/laoshi/" title="google.com" rel="nofollow">http://code.google.com/p/laoshi/</a> [google.com]</p><p>It is a Chinese learning software that includes :<br>- Lessons viewer<br>- Flash card game<br>- A dictionary<br>- Characters viewer<br>- Tones recognition game<br>- Database of learned characters</p><p>I started the project a month ago and I am looking for interested people to contribute or give me feedback.</p><p>The code is in python using gtk for the interface, the dictionary database comes from the cc-cedict project : <a href="http://cc-cedict.org/" title="cc-cedict.org" rel="nofollow">http://cc-cedict.org/</a> [cc-cedict.org].</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>People interested can check this project : http : //code.google.com/p/laoshi/ [ google.com ] It is a Chinese learning software that includes : - Lessons viewer- Flash card game- A dictionary- Characters viewer- Tones recognition game- Database of learned charactersI started the project a month ago and I am looking for interested people to contribute or give me feedback.The code is in python using gtk for the interface , the dictionary database comes from the cc-cedict project : http : //cc-cedict.org/ [ cc-cedict.org ] .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>People interested can check this project : http://code.google.com/p/laoshi/ [google.com]It is a Chinese learning software that includes :- Lessons viewer- Flash card game- A dictionary- Characters viewer- Tones recognition game- Database of learned charactersI started the project a month ago and I am looking for interested people to contribute or give me feedback.The code is in python using gtk for the interface, the dictionary database comes from the cc-cedict project : http://cc-cedict.org/ [cc-cedict.org].</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31553118</id>
	<title>Hmmm - Re:A proven technique</title>
	<author>beh</author>
	<datestamp>1269086760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My girlfriends first comment:  Yeah right, that helped...</p><p>Almost 5 years together, and she still hardly speaks a word of German because I almost automatically switch over to English when talking to her...<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...which may be good for my English, but certainly isn't for her German...<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-/</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My girlfriends first comment : Yeah right , that helped...Almost 5 years together , and she still hardly speaks a word of German because I almost automatically switch over to English when talking to her... ...which may be good for my English , but certainly is n't for her German... : -/</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My girlfriends first comment:  Yeah right, that helped...Almost 5 years together, and she still hardly speaks a word of German because I almost automatically switch over to English when talking to her... ...which may be good for my English, but certainly isn't for her German... :-/</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551770</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551896</id>
	<title>Re:Same?</title>
	<author>Guido von Guido</author>
	<datestamp>1269077940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I'm no expert on this, but I don't see a relation between sound and shape of our letters either. So the answer is to study as hard as you can and also: repetition!</p></div><p>
We've basically got 26 characters to worry about (plus numbers, punctuation marks and various symbols). To be literate in Chinese, you have to know 3-4 thousand characters--and there are tens of thousands of characters in all. There are also two different sets of characters, simplified and traditional. So while neither have any relationship to sound, memorizing any alphabet is a hell of a lot easier.
</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm no expert on this , but I do n't see a relation between sound and shape of our letters either .
So the answer is to study as hard as you can and also : repetition !
We 've basically got 26 characters to worry about ( plus numbers , punctuation marks and various symbols ) .
To be literate in Chinese , you have to know 3-4 thousand characters--and there are tens of thousands of characters in all .
There are also two different sets of characters , simplified and traditional .
So while neither have any relationship to sound , memorizing any alphabet is a hell of a lot easier .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm no expert on this, but I don't see a relation between sound and shape of our letters either.
So the answer is to study as hard as you can and also: repetition!
We've basically got 26 characters to worry about (plus numbers, punctuation marks and various symbols).
To be literate in Chinese, you have to know 3-4 thousand characters--and there are tens of thousands of characters in all.
There are also two different sets of characters, simplified and traditional.
So while neither have any relationship to sound, memorizing any alphabet is a hell of a lot easier.

	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551762</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31553652</id>
	<title>Re:Heisig's technique</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269091020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>+1 on the recommendations for Anki, and Heisig's Remembering the Kanji (Japanese) / Remembering the Hanzi (Chinese).</p><p>I'd just like to add the awesome site that is <a href="http://kanji.koohii.com/" title="koohii.com" rel="nofollow">Reviewing the Kanji</a> [koohii.com].</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>+ 1 on the recommendations for Anki , and Heisig 's Remembering the Kanji ( Japanese ) / Remembering the Hanzi ( Chinese ) .I 'd just like to add the awesome site that is Reviewing the Kanji [ koohii.com ] .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>+1 on the recommendations for Anki, and Heisig's Remembering the Kanji (Japanese) / Remembering the Hanzi (Chinese).I'd just like to add the awesome site that is Reviewing the Kanji [koohii.com].</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552066</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31553258</id>
	<title>Re:Same?</title>
	<author>jabithew</author>
	<datestamp>1269087660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Links can be a bit weird in Chinese. FIrst example you're likely to come across is ma. Ma (third tone) means horse. Toneless ma is a particle that changes a sentence into a question. The character for the particle is the character for horse with a mouth (kou) next to it, showing that it's a part of speech, and that it sounds like the word for horse.</p><p>Several Chinese friends of mine assure me that there are links between meaning/sound and character for all of them, via these 'radicals', but it's a bit too Times-cryptic-crosswordy to be useful for Westerners.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Links can be a bit weird in Chinese .
FIrst example you 're likely to come across is ma .
Ma ( third tone ) means horse .
Toneless ma is a particle that changes a sentence into a question .
The character for the particle is the character for horse with a mouth ( kou ) next to it , showing that it 's a part of speech , and that it sounds like the word for horse.Several Chinese friends of mine assure me that there are links between meaning/sound and character for all of them , via these 'radicals ' , but it 's a bit too Times-cryptic-crosswordy to be useful for Westerners .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Links can be a bit weird in Chinese.
FIrst example you're likely to come across is ma.
Ma (third tone) means horse.
Toneless ma is a particle that changes a sentence into a question.
The character for the particle is the character for horse with a mouth (kou) next to it, showing that it's a part of speech, and that it sounds like the word for horse.Several Chinese friends of mine assure me that there are links between meaning/sound and character for all of them, via these 'radicals', but it's a bit too Times-cryptic-crosswordy to be useful for Westerners.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551862</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551872</id>
	<title>Try flashcard software</title>
	<author>i-like-burritos</author>
	<datestamp>1269077700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've been studying Japanese for years, and flashcard software has really helped me with the Chinese characters.  iFlash for OSX is an excellent tool.<p>

As others have said, there's no way around the need for repetition and a lot of practice.</p><p>
Also, diligence is extremely important.  If you're not using them, then you forget the characters very quickly.  If you're not careful you might actually find that you're forgetting characters as quickly as you're learning new ones.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've been studying Japanese for years , and flashcard software has really helped me with the Chinese characters .
iFlash for OSX is an excellent tool .
As others have said , there 's no way around the need for repetition and a lot of practice .
Also , diligence is extremely important .
If you 're not using them , then you forget the characters very quickly .
If you 're not careful you might actually find that you 're forgetting characters as quickly as you 're learning new ones .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've been studying Japanese for years, and flashcard software has really helped me with the Chinese characters.
iFlash for OSX is an excellent tool.
As others have said, there's no way around the need for repetition and a lot of practice.
Also, diligence is extremely important.
If you're not using them, then you forget the characters very quickly.
If you're not careful you might actually find that you're forgetting characters as quickly as you're learning new ones.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31555158</id>
	<title>shape + meaning</title>
	<author>myfauxfoe</author>
	<datestamp>1269107280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I loved tokenshi's response<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)

My experience is fairly limited, but here are the things that helped me:
<br>
<br>
Practicing the strokes makes a huge difference in learning speed. My tutor provided me with a workbook that had pictures of the characters displaying the order and direction of the strokes, and I was asked to trace the characters at least 10 times each before copying them down. It seems monotonous at first, but pretty soon I built a frame of reference. The strokes became more familiar (even developing a sort of rhythm), which made the characters less intimidating.
<br>
<br>
Another thing that has really helped me is studying characters piece by piece. Once you know that the character for "rise"/"stand" combined with "sun"/"day" forms "sound", you can imagine how sound begins each day as the sun rises (birds singing, people waking, etc.) and use that to remember the character. Not all compound characters have such beautifully abstract logic behind their construction (some are a combination of theme and a phonetic, and some are just plain phonetic), but I find that most are adaptable to similar mnemonic devices.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I loved tokenshi 's response : - ) My experience is fairly limited , but here are the things that helped me : Practicing the strokes makes a huge difference in learning speed .
My tutor provided me with a workbook that had pictures of the characters displaying the order and direction of the strokes , and I was asked to trace the characters at least 10 times each before copying them down .
It seems monotonous at first , but pretty soon I built a frame of reference .
The strokes became more familiar ( even developing a sort of rhythm ) , which made the characters less intimidating .
Another thing that has really helped me is studying characters piece by piece .
Once you know that the character for " rise " / " stand " combined with " sun " / " day " forms " sound " , you can imagine how sound begins each day as the sun rises ( birds singing , people waking , etc .
) and use that to remember the character .
Not all compound characters have such beautifully abstract logic behind their construction ( some are a combination of theme and a phonetic , and some are just plain phonetic ) , but I find that most are adaptable to similar mnemonic devices .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I loved tokenshi's response :-)

My experience is fairly limited, but here are the things that helped me:


Practicing the strokes makes a huge difference in learning speed.
My tutor provided me with a workbook that had pictures of the characters displaying the order and direction of the strokes, and I was asked to trace the characters at least 10 times each before copying them down.
It seems monotonous at first, but pretty soon I built a frame of reference.
The strokes became more familiar (even developing a sort of rhythm), which made the characters less intimidating.
Another thing that has really helped me is studying characters piece by piece.
Once you know that the character for "rise"/"stand" combined with "sun"/"day" forms "sound", you can imagine how sound begins each day as the sun rises (birds singing, people waking, etc.
) and use that to remember the character.
Not all compound characters have such beautifully abstract logic behind their construction (some are a combination of theme and a phonetic, and some are just plain phonetic), but I find that most are adaptable to similar mnemonic devices.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551950</id>
	<title>Incorrect assumption!</title>
	<author>ShanghaiBill</author>
	<datestamp>1269078420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
<i>there is no relation between sound and shape of the characters.</i>
</p><p>
This is wrong.  Many, if not most, Chinese characters give an indication to both meaning and pronunciation.  For instance the Mandarin word for "same" is pronounced "tong".  The Mandarin word for copper is also "tong", and the ideogram for copper contains two radicals: the "metal" radical, which indicates meaning, and the "same" radical, which indicates pronunciation.
</p><p>
Once you learn the basic radicals, learning Chinese characters is not that hard.  I can read Chinese much better than I can speak it.
</p><p>
Flash cards work well.  Some computer programs work well too.  "Rosetta Stone" works really well, but it is expensive.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>there is no relation between sound and shape of the characters .
This is wrong .
Many , if not most , Chinese characters give an indication to both meaning and pronunciation .
For instance the Mandarin word for " same " is pronounced " tong " .
The Mandarin word for copper is also " tong " , and the ideogram for copper contains two radicals : the " metal " radical , which indicates meaning , and the " same " radical , which indicates pronunciation .
Once you learn the basic radicals , learning Chinese characters is not that hard .
I can read Chinese much better than I can speak it .
Flash cards work well .
Some computer programs work well too .
" Rosetta Stone " works really well , but it is expensive .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
there is no relation between sound and shape of the characters.
This is wrong.
Many, if not most, Chinese characters give an indication to both meaning and pronunciation.
For instance the Mandarin word for "same" is pronounced "tong".
The Mandarin word for copper is also "tong", and the ideogram for copper contains two radicals: the "metal" radical, which indicates meaning, and the "same" radical, which indicates pronunciation.
Once you learn the basic radicals, learning Chinese characters is not that hard.
I can read Chinese much better than I can speak it.
Flash cards work well.
Some computer programs work well too.
"Rosetta Stone" works really well, but it is expensive.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552740</id>
	<title>Re:Why not ask the teachers?</title>
	<author>gd2shoe</author>
	<datestamp>1269084540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><nobr> <wbr></nobr></p><div class="quote"><p>... Not that there's anything wrong with asking Google or Slashdot, but the first place I would go is to their teachers....</p></div><p>Yes, but where do good teachers get their "additional tools"?  There are a couple of places.  (1) They go online.  If they can do it, you can too.  (2) They watch and see what their students and parents come up with.  When they recognize a good idea, they'll perpetuate it. For this to work, some students and parents need to do independent research.  (3) They use what they were taught with.  (4) They receive teacher oriented marketing.  Most of it is junk (as with all marketing), but there are nuggets there.  (5) They come up with something radical on their own.</p><p>In short, asking the teacher is really a good idea.  Asking the teacher, though, should not be the last and only step in searching for learning tools.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>... Not that there 's anything wrong with asking Google or Slashdot , but the first place I would go is to their teachers....Yes , but where do good teachers get their " additional tools " ?
There are a couple of places .
( 1 ) They go online .
If they can do it , you can too .
( 2 ) They watch and see what their students and parents come up with .
When they recognize a good idea , they 'll perpetuate it .
For this to work , some students and parents need to do independent research .
( 3 ) They use what they were taught with .
( 4 ) They receive teacher oriented marketing .
Most of it is junk ( as with all marketing ) , but there are nuggets there .
( 5 ) They come up with something radical on their own.In short , asking the teacher is really a good idea .
Asking the teacher , though , should not be the last and only step in searching for learning tools .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> ... Not that there's anything wrong with asking Google or Slashdot, but the first place I would go is to their teachers....Yes, but where do good teachers get their "additional tools"?
There are a couple of places.
(1) They go online.
If they can do it, you can too.
(2) They watch and see what their students and parents come up with.
When they recognize a good idea, they'll perpetuate it.
For this to work, some students and parents need to do independent research.
(3) They use what they were taught with.
(4) They receive teacher oriented marketing.
Most of it is junk (as with all marketing), but there are nuggets there.
(5) They come up with something radical on their own.In short, asking the teacher is really a good idea.
Asking the teacher, though, should not be the last and only step in searching for learning tools.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551792</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31554494</id>
	<title>smart.fn</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269098760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've been learning Japanese recently - <a href="http://smart.fm/" title="smart.fm" rel="nofollow">http://smart.fm/</a> [smart.fm] is great. Based loosely on the Mnemosyne algorithm to prevent you from spending much time repeating that which you know already, it does an excellent job of assisting rote learning thru games. Let's you add your own content too. Keep meaning to start 'goals' for cisco ios commands and gmat.<br>I'm not affliated honest, but do live in Japan.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've been learning Japanese recently - http : //smart.fm/ [ smart.fm ] is great .
Based loosely on the Mnemosyne algorithm to prevent you from spending much time repeating that which you know already , it does an excellent job of assisting rote learning thru games .
Let 's you add your own content too .
Keep meaning to start 'goals ' for cisco ios commands and gmat.I 'm not affliated honest , but do live in Japan .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've been learning Japanese recently - http://smart.fm/ [smart.fm] is great.
Based loosely on the Mnemosyne algorithm to prevent you from spending much time repeating that which you know already, it does an excellent job of assisting rote learning thru games.
Let's you add your own content too.
Keep meaning to start 'goals' for cisco ios commands and gmat.I'm not affliated honest, but do live in Japan.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552166</id>
	<title>From personal experience</title>
	<author>aBaldrich</author>
	<datestamp>1269080040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Hi, i'm 18, and I can speak and write in 5 languages.<br>I tried to memorize 5-8 words every day, make sentences using those words, etc. I imagine the most difficult part is learning 5000+ symbols, well, when I learned the Cyrillic and Greek alphabets I memorized each letter by writing it and, at the same time, pronouncing it. It doesn't seem serious, but it helps a lot.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Hi , i 'm 18 , and I can speak and write in 5 languages.I tried to memorize 5-8 words every day , make sentences using those words , etc .
I imagine the most difficult part is learning 5000 + symbols , well , when I learned the Cyrillic and Greek alphabets I memorized each letter by writing it and , at the same time , pronouncing it .
It does n't seem serious , but it helps a lot .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hi, i'm 18, and I can speak and write in 5 languages.I tried to memorize 5-8 words every day, make sentences using those words, etc.
I imagine the most difficult part is learning 5000+ symbols, well, when I learned the Cyrillic and Greek alphabets I memorized each letter by writing it and, at the same time, pronouncing it.
It doesn't seem serious, but it helps a lot.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31553642</id>
	<title>Rote and Memorization ...</title>
	<author>gordguide</author>
	<datestamp>1269090960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When I was in college a second language was still mandatory to graduate. Basically this meant at the time that you have to pass one full class in a non-English language. Today I don't believe a second language is mandatory any more, and 20 years before I was in school, it was four years of a second language or no diploma, sonny.</p><p>Anyway, I took French like I had for four years in High School (we could also take German at our school, it was a bit easier to learn).</p><p>My buddy in College took Chinese. I asked him if he'd ever spoken it before<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... not a word. Pure Rookie.</p><p>He would come to lunch and start doing these chinese characters for his assignment. Pretty much every class you had to write out some phrase in Chinese characters, and hand it in<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... this was for class credit.</p><p>He had this book; look up something, write a stroke, look up some more, write another stroke, and so on. I asked if it was hard. Nope, but you pretty much have to look all this stuff up every time, he said. Too many to remember, although you eventually figure some of 'em out. Basically, you talked in class and wrote this assignment between classes. He said it was one of the easiest classes he ever took; everyone was getting 100\% on the class assignments.</p><p>I asked about the prof<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... doesn't he want you to do any closed-book exams (without the "little book" handy)? Nope, he said. The prof uses the little book too, all during the class.</p><p>Oh, I said.</p><p>So, you need to repetitively write the stuff down. Eventually you learn a few of them, but it's not expected that you learn them all. Apparently no-one does.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When I was in college a second language was still mandatory to graduate .
Basically this meant at the time that you have to pass one full class in a non-English language .
Today I do n't believe a second language is mandatory any more , and 20 years before I was in school , it was four years of a second language or no diploma , sonny.Anyway , I took French like I had for four years in High School ( we could also take German at our school , it was a bit easier to learn ) .My buddy in College took Chinese .
I asked him if he 'd ever spoken it before ... not a word .
Pure Rookie.He would come to lunch and start doing these chinese characters for his assignment .
Pretty much every class you had to write out some phrase in Chinese characters , and hand it in ... this was for class credit.He had this book ; look up something , write a stroke , look up some more , write another stroke , and so on .
I asked if it was hard .
Nope , but you pretty much have to look all this stuff up every time , he said .
Too many to remember , although you eventually figure some of 'em out .
Basically , you talked in class and wrote this assignment between classes .
He said it was one of the easiest classes he ever took ; everyone was getting 100 \ % on the class assignments.I asked about the prof ... does n't he want you to do any closed-book exams ( without the " little book " handy ) ?
Nope , he said .
The prof uses the little book too , all during the class.Oh , I said.So , you need to repetitively write the stuff down .
Eventually you learn a few of them , but it 's not expected that you learn them all .
Apparently no-one does .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I was in college a second language was still mandatory to graduate.
Basically this meant at the time that you have to pass one full class in a non-English language.
Today I don't believe a second language is mandatory any more, and 20 years before I was in school, it was four years of a second language or no diploma, sonny.Anyway, I took French like I had for four years in High School (we could also take German at our school, it was a bit easier to learn).My buddy in College took Chinese.
I asked him if he'd ever spoken it before ... not a word.
Pure Rookie.He would come to lunch and start doing these chinese characters for his assignment.
Pretty much every class you had to write out some phrase in Chinese characters, and hand it in ... this was for class credit.He had this book; look up something, write a stroke, look up some more, write another stroke, and so on.
I asked if it was hard.
Nope, but you pretty much have to look all this stuff up every time, he said.
Too many to remember, although you eventually figure some of 'em out.
Basically, you talked in class and wrote this assignment between classes.
He said it was one of the easiest classes he ever took; everyone was getting 100\% on the class assignments.I asked about the prof ... doesn't he want you to do any closed-book exams (without the "little book" handy)?
Nope, he said.
The prof uses the little book too, all during the class.Oh, I said.So, you need to repetitively write the stuff down.
Eventually you learn a few of them, but it's not expected that you learn them all.
Apparently no-one does.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551862</id>
	<title>Re:Same?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269077700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>IIRC, Chinese characters represent individual syllables. English letters are strung together to make syllables. I think he's lamenting that syllables in English that sound similar will generally <em>look</em> similar, but there is no such resemblance in Chinese.</htmltext>
<tokenext>IIRC , Chinese characters represent individual syllables .
English letters are strung together to make syllables .
I think he 's lamenting that syllables in English that sound similar will generally look similar , but there is no such resemblance in Chinese .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>IIRC, Chinese characters represent individual syllables.
English letters are strung together to make syllables.
I think he's lamenting that syllables in English that sound similar will generally look similar, but there is no such resemblance in Chinese.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551762</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31556692</id>
	<title>derp</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269176580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When I was learning Japanese we used flashcards that likened the shape of the character with an English phrase. Like "na", it looks like a nun kneeling in front of a cross. Things like that. But having never studied Chinese, I'm not sure if it has the same ability.</p><p>Flashcards are probably your answer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When I was learning Japanese we used flashcards that likened the shape of the character with an English phrase .
Like " na " , it looks like a nun kneeling in front of a cross .
Things like that .
But having never studied Chinese , I 'm not sure if it has the same ability.Flashcards are probably your answer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I was learning Japanese we used flashcards that likened the shape of the character with an English phrase.
Like "na", it looks like a nun kneeling in front of a cross.
Things like that.
But having never studied Chinese, I'm not sure if it has the same ability.Flashcards are probably your answer.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551984</id>
	<title>Hints to pronunciation and meaning</title>
	<author>oliverlangan</author>
	<datestamp>1269078840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There is really no relationship between latin characters and sound either, at least until you've learned them.  Korean Hangul is the only character set that I know of in which a conscious effort was made to have the parts of the glyphs relate to the structure of the mouth when they are pronounced.</p><p>That being said, it is not entirely true that there is no relationship between sound and character in Chinese.  Once you have learned the hundred or so base characters, these are re-used over and over as 'radicals' (parts) in the more complex characters.  The main radical often gives a hint to the meaning of the character (for example, 'water' may mean that you are talking about some liquid or water-related thing) and other parts of the character often give a hint to how the characters should be pronounced.</p><p>In my experience, this is true for both Chinese and Japanese, but in very different ways.  (In fact, the differences in the languages that originally shared a common writing system explains a lot of the divergence in their use of the characters.)  Simplified Chinese (used for mainland Mandarin) has changed the shape of many characters without maintaining the hints that were previously embedded within the word.</p><p>My suggestion would be to learn the simple first-and-second-year hanzi for whichever dialect your children are learning... probably no more than a hundred characters or so.  You can probably do so much faster than they can.  But at some point the pace of their classes will increase dramatically.  You may be able to keep up as they learn additional characters, but ultimately the only way to learn them is to use them: practice practice practice.  It takes time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is really no relationship between latin characters and sound either , at least until you 've learned them .
Korean Hangul is the only character set that I know of in which a conscious effort was made to have the parts of the glyphs relate to the structure of the mouth when they are pronounced.That being said , it is not entirely true that there is no relationship between sound and character in Chinese .
Once you have learned the hundred or so base characters , these are re-used over and over as 'radicals ' ( parts ) in the more complex characters .
The main radical often gives a hint to the meaning of the character ( for example , 'water ' may mean that you are talking about some liquid or water-related thing ) and other parts of the character often give a hint to how the characters should be pronounced.In my experience , this is true for both Chinese and Japanese , but in very different ways .
( In fact , the differences in the languages that originally shared a common writing system explains a lot of the divergence in their use of the characters .
) Simplified Chinese ( used for mainland Mandarin ) has changed the shape of many characters without maintaining the hints that were previously embedded within the word.My suggestion would be to learn the simple first-and-second-year hanzi for whichever dialect your children are learning... probably no more than a hundred characters or so .
You can probably do so much faster than they can .
But at some point the pace of their classes will increase dramatically .
You may be able to keep up as they learn additional characters , but ultimately the only way to learn them is to use them : practice practice practice .
It takes time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is really no relationship between latin characters and sound either, at least until you've learned them.
Korean Hangul is the only character set that I know of in which a conscious effort was made to have the parts of the glyphs relate to the structure of the mouth when they are pronounced.That being said, it is not entirely true that there is no relationship between sound and character in Chinese.
Once you have learned the hundred or so base characters, these are re-used over and over as 'radicals' (parts) in the more complex characters.
The main radical often gives a hint to the meaning of the character (for example, 'water' may mean that you are talking about some liquid or water-related thing) and other parts of the character often give a hint to how the characters should be pronounced.In my experience, this is true for both Chinese and Japanese, but in very different ways.
(In fact, the differences in the languages that originally shared a common writing system explains a lot of the divergence in their use of the characters.
)  Simplified Chinese (used for mainland Mandarin) has changed the shape of many characters without maintaining the hints that were previously embedded within the word.My suggestion would be to learn the simple first-and-second-year hanzi for whichever dialect your children are learning... probably no more than a hundred characters or so.
You can probably do so much faster than they can.
But at some point the pace of their classes will increase dramatically.
You may be able to keep up as they learn additional characters, but ultimately the only way to learn them is to use them: practice practice practice.
It takes time.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552592</id>
	<title>Do what works</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269083280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Try Tuttle's "Learning Chinese Characters" by Alison and Laurence Matthews. Very good imagination-driven way to memorize the characters. Depending on the age of your children, you might have to moderate between them and the book. Worst case, you tell them the memorizing stories yourself.</p><p>Nothing can spare you rote repetition of writing the characters. Methods like the above will improve efficiency a lot, but there is actually a "kinesthetical" or "feeling" dimension to Chinese characters that can only be learned by writing them over and over again. This feeling for the strokes helps in distinguishing the characters and reproducing them from your mind.</p><p>Also, have your children teach you. Studies show this improves their learning a lot.</p><p>Have your children repeat all the characters they know regularly. In Chinese you learn one new word and forget two old ones. Repetition is the only way out.</p><p>Having said all that, a classroom centered curriculum will tend to force students on the new material in order to pass the test. Passing tests has always priority over long term memorization, but once this basic need is met, spend as much time on repetition as possible.</p><p>There is also an excellent Nintendo DS game "My Chinese Coach", which covers at least 1000 words. Not good at adapting to different learning curriculums, but very good for repetition and deepening Chinese language skills, both characters and pronounciation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Try Tuttle 's " Learning Chinese Characters " by Alison and Laurence Matthews .
Very good imagination-driven way to memorize the characters .
Depending on the age of your children , you might have to moderate between them and the book .
Worst case , you tell them the memorizing stories yourself.Nothing can spare you rote repetition of writing the characters .
Methods like the above will improve efficiency a lot , but there is actually a " kinesthetical " or " feeling " dimension to Chinese characters that can only be learned by writing them over and over again .
This feeling for the strokes helps in distinguishing the characters and reproducing them from your mind.Also , have your children teach you .
Studies show this improves their learning a lot.Have your children repeat all the characters they know regularly .
In Chinese you learn one new word and forget two old ones .
Repetition is the only way out.Having said all that , a classroom centered curriculum will tend to force students on the new material in order to pass the test .
Passing tests has always priority over long term memorization , but once this basic need is met , spend as much time on repetition as possible.There is also an excellent Nintendo DS game " My Chinese Coach " , which covers at least 1000 words .
Not good at adapting to different learning curriculums , but very good for repetition and deepening Chinese language skills , both characters and pronounciation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Try Tuttle's "Learning Chinese Characters" by Alison and Laurence Matthews.
Very good imagination-driven way to memorize the characters.
Depending on the age of your children, you might have to moderate between them and the book.
Worst case, you tell them the memorizing stories yourself.Nothing can spare you rote repetition of writing the characters.
Methods like the above will improve efficiency a lot, but there is actually a "kinesthetical" or "feeling" dimension to Chinese characters that can only be learned by writing them over and over again.
This feeling for the strokes helps in distinguishing the characters and reproducing them from your mind.Also, have your children teach you.
Studies show this improves their learning a lot.Have your children repeat all the characters they know regularly.
In Chinese you learn one new word and forget two old ones.
Repetition is the only way out.Having said all that, a classroom centered curriculum will tend to force students on the new material in order to pass the test.
Passing tests has always priority over long term memorization, but once this basic need is met, spend as much time on repetition as possible.There is also an excellent Nintendo DS game "My Chinese Coach", which covers at least 1000 words.
Not good at adapting to different learning curriculums, but very good for repetition and deepening Chinese language skills, both characters and pronounciation.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31554936</id>
	<title>Re:Incorrect assumption!</title>
	<author>wiredlogic</author>
	<datestamp>1269103800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's more problematic for Japanese because there is no way to guess the reading from the radicals and there are many more readings than with Mandarin. One word may use the Tang dynasty reading whereas another the Ming reading for the same character. Throw in the native Japanese and it becomes a chore to remember everything.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's more problematic for Japanese because there is no way to guess the reading from the radicals and there are many more readings than with Mandarin .
One word may use the Tang dynasty reading whereas another the Ming reading for the same character .
Throw in the native Japanese and it becomes a chore to remember everything .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's more problematic for Japanese because there is no way to guess the reading from the radicals and there are many more readings than with Mandarin.
One word may use the Tang dynasty reading whereas another the Ming reading for the same character.
Throw in the native Japanese and it becomes a chore to remember everything.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552864</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31554554</id>
	<title>There's a lot of possibilities here...</title>
	<author>Estanislao Martínez</author>
	<datestamp>1269099300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are a lot of different types of scripts, and most don't have a relationship between the shape of a character and its sound:
</p><ol>
<li> <b>Idiograms:</b> the characters are stylized pictorial depictions of things.  Some very early inscriptions were like this; e.g., very early hieroglyphics.  It's arguable whether this is truly "writing."</li>
<li> <b>Logograms:</b> the characters represent words, not things.  They don't look very much like drawings of the things they represent, and there are often rules that allow you to use a simpler character as a "base" for inventing a new one for a word that sounds similar.  Chinese is like this.</li>
<li> <b>Syllabary:</b> the characters represent whole syllables.  Japanese kana (not the kanji) are like this.</li>
<li> <b>Abugida:</b> the characters represent consonants, but take modifiers to represent the vowels that appear with them.  A bunch of Indian scripts are like this.</li>
<li> <b>Abjad:</b> characters represent consonants, vowels not normally written down.  Don't ask me how this works.  The Arabic and Hebrew scripts are like this.</li>
<li> <b>Alphabet:</b> Each character represents a phoneme.  The Latin alphabet is the most famous one.</li>
<li> <b>Featural:</b> Each character is a conventional representation of the phonetic details of it is pronounciation.  The <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangul" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">Korean script</a> [wikipedia.org], the most famous example by far, is a featural alphabet written in syllabic blocks.  Tolkien's Tengwar script in <i>The Lord of the Rings</i> is another famous one.</li>
</ol><p>So out of those seven types, only featural scripts can be said to represent the pronunciation of the sounds--and this isn't as useful as you may think, because unless you know articulatory phonetics, you can't understand how featural scripts represent pronunciations.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are a lot of different types of scripts , and most do n't have a relationship between the shape of a character and its sound : Idiograms : the characters are stylized pictorial depictions of things .
Some very early inscriptions were like this ; e.g. , very early hieroglyphics .
It 's arguable whether this is truly " writing .
" Logograms : the characters represent words , not things .
They do n't look very much like drawings of the things they represent , and there are often rules that allow you to use a simpler character as a " base " for inventing a new one for a word that sounds similar .
Chinese is like this .
Syllabary : the characters represent whole syllables .
Japanese kana ( not the kanji ) are like this .
Abugida : the characters represent consonants , but take modifiers to represent the vowels that appear with them .
A bunch of Indian scripts are like this .
Abjad : characters represent consonants , vowels not normally written down .
Do n't ask me how this works .
The Arabic and Hebrew scripts are like this .
Alphabet : Each character represents a phoneme .
The Latin alphabet is the most famous one .
Featural : Each character is a conventional representation of the phonetic details of it is pronounciation .
The Korean script [ wikipedia.org ] , the most famous example by far , is a featural alphabet written in syllabic blocks .
Tolkien 's Tengwar script in The Lord of the Rings is another famous one .
So out of those seven types , only featural scripts can be said to represent the pronunciation of the sounds--and this is n't as useful as you may think , because unless you know articulatory phonetics , you ca n't understand how featural scripts represent pronunciations .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are a lot of different types of scripts, and most don't have a relationship between the shape of a character and its sound:

 Idiograms: the characters are stylized pictorial depictions of things.
Some very early inscriptions were like this; e.g., very early hieroglyphics.
It's arguable whether this is truly "writing.
"
 Logograms: the characters represent words, not things.
They don't look very much like drawings of the things they represent, and there are often rules that allow you to use a simpler character as a "base" for inventing a new one for a word that sounds similar.
Chinese is like this.
Syllabary: the characters represent whole syllables.
Japanese kana (not the kanji) are like this.
Abugida: the characters represent consonants, but take modifiers to represent the vowels that appear with them.
A bunch of Indian scripts are like this.
Abjad: characters represent consonants, vowels not normally written down.
Don't ask me how this works.
The Arabic and Hebrew scripts are like this.
Alphabet: Each character represents a phoneme.
The Latin alphabet is the most famous one.
Featural: Each character is a conventional representation of the phonetic details of it is pronounciation.
The Korean script [wikipedia.org], the most famous example by far, is a featural alphabet written in syllabic blocks.
Tolkien's Tengwar script in The Lord of the Rings is another famous one.
So out of those seven types, only featural scripts can be said to represent the pronunciation of the sounds--and this isn't as useful as you may think, because unless you know articulatory phonetics, you can't understand how featural scripts represent pronunciations.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551762</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551764</id>
	<title>Repetition. Repetition. Repetition.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269076980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm learning Chinese right now too and I use http://www.nciku.com and put in all my vocabulary from each lesson and just continuously test myself every day on the vocab I'm learning and have learned to always keep it fresh in my mind. I think you're really at a loss here to do anything other than just practice, practice, practice as, like you said, there's no correlation between characters and sounds.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm learning Chinese right now too and I use http : //www.nciku.com and put in all my vocabulary from each lesson and just continuously test myself every day on the vocab I 'm learning and have learned to always keep it fresh in my mind .
I think you 're really at a loss here to do anything other than just practice , practice , practice as , like you said , there 's no correlation between characters and sounds .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm learning Chinese right now too and I use http://www.nciku.com and put in all my vocabulary from each lesson and just continuously test myself every day on the vocab I'm learning and have learned to always keep it fresh in my mind.
I think you're really at a loss here to do anything other than just practice, practice, practice as, like you said, there's no correlation between characters and sounds.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551778</id>
	<title>Radical Spelling</title>
	<author>NoTheory</author>
	<datestamp>1269077040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>There are ideographic relationships between concepts and what's in the characters.  Each of the elements in complex characters bears some of the meaning of the word.  Dictionaries for Chinese and Japanese Kanji are in fact organized in this manner (by character radical).  I can't recommend a particular manner of memorizing them (i failed abysmally at the task as a child, and am functionally illiterate as a result), however the relationships are there if you want to look for them.</htmltext>
<tokenext>There are ideographic relationships between concepts and what 's in the characters .
Each of the elements in complex characters bears some of the meaning of the word .
Dictionaries for Chinese and Japanese Kanji are in fact organized in this manner ( by character radical ) .
I ca n't recommend a particular manner of memorizing them ( i failed abysmally at the task as a child , and am functionally illiterate as a result ) , however the relationships are there if you want to look for them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are ideographic relationships between concepts and what's in the characters.
Each of the elements in complex characters bears some of the meaning of the word.
Dictionaries for Chinese and Japanese Kanji are in fact organized in this manner (by character radical).
I can't recommend a particular manner of memorizing them (i failed abysmally at the task as a child, and am functionally illiterate as a result), however the relationships are there if you want to look for them.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31562532</id>
	<title>Re:Once you learn some radicals...</title>
	<author>xandroid</author>
	<datestamp>1269183180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yep, I'd suggest starting by learning all the radicals up to like 5 strokes. It'll give you a good foundation to start learning the rest of the characters, as you'll know the meaning and pronunciation of the radicals and will start to see the connections between the pieces that comprise other characters.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yep , I 'd suggest starting by learning all the radicals up to like 5 strokes .
It 'll give you a good foundation to start learning the rest of the characters , as you 'll know the meaning and pronunciation of the radicals and will start to see the connections between the pieces that comprise other characters .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yep, I'd suggest starting by learning all the radicals up to like 5 strokes.
It'll give you a good foundation to start learning the rest of the characters, as you'll know the meaning and pronunciation of the radicals and will start to see the connections between the pieces that comprise other characters.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551844</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31556570</id>
	<title>Re:Incorrect assumption!</title>
	<author>ShakaUVM</author>
	<datestamp>1269174480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>This is wrong. Many, if not most, Chinese characters give an indication to both meaning and pronunciation. For instance the Mandarin word for "same" is pronounced "tong". The Mandarin word for copper is also "tong", and the ideogram for copper contains two radicals: the "metal" radical, which indicates meaning, and the "same" radical, which indicates pronunciation.</p><p>Once you learn the basic radicals, learning Chinese characters is not that hard. I can read Chinese much better than I can speak it.</p><p>Flash cards work well. Some computer programs work well too. "Rosetta Stone" works really well, but it is expensive.</p></div></blockquote><p>Yeah, most people new to Chinese think the characters are arbitrary, but they're really not. I highly highly recommend the zipu (Character Chart) dictionary off Zhongwen.com. It breaks down every character to tell you why it's written that way. It's the best dictionary I've ever bought, for any language.</p><p>I can't recommend Rosetta Stone, though. It just doesn't work for learning Chinese, since grammer is so important to the language, and it doesn't teach you grammar. I'd recommend the Fluenz software over that first. Failing that, buying a couple different books could be a good way to go. I like the Shaum's books on Chinese, as well as a green book called Essential Chinese Grammar, which ROCKS.</p><p>I'm actually working on a grant right now that's teaching Mandarin to kids in San Diego. Would be kind of cool if the OP was the father of one of these guys.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is wrong .
Many , if not most , Chinese characters give an indication to both meaning and pronunciation .
For instance the Mandarin word for " same " is pronounced " tong " .
The Mandarin word for copper is also " tong " , and the ideogram for copper contains two radicals : the " metal " radical , which indicates meaning , and the " same " radical , which indicates pronunciation.Once you learn the basic radicals , learning Chinese characters is not that hard .
I can read Chinese much better than I can speak it.Flash cards work well .
Some computer programs work well too .
" Rosetta Stone " works really well , but it is expensive.Yeah , most people new to Chinese think the characters are arbitrary , but they 're really not .
I highly highly recommend the zipu ( Character Chart ) dictionary off Zhongwen.com .
It breaks down every character to tell you why it 's written that way .
It 's the best dictionary I 've ever bought , for any language.I ca n't recommend Rosetta Stone , though .
It just does n't work for learning Chinese , since grammer is so important to the language , and it does n't teach you grammar .
I 'd recommend the Fluenz software over that first .
Failing that , buying a couple different books could be a good way to go .
I like the Shaum 's books on Chinese , as well as a green book called Essential Chinese Grammar , which ROCKS.I 'm actually working on a grant right now that 's teaching Mandarin to kids in San Diego .
Would be kind of cool if the OP was the father of one of these guys .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is wrong.
Many, if not most, Chinese characters give an indication to both meaning and pronunciation.
For instance the Mandarin word for "same" is pronounced "tong".
The Mandarin word for copper is also "tong", and the ideogram for copper contains two radicals: the "metal" radical, which indicates meaning, and the "same" radical, which indicates pronunciation.Once you learn the basic radicals, learning Chinese characters is not that hard.
I can read Chinese much better than I can speak it.Flash cards work well.
Some computer programs work well too.
"Rosetta Stone" works really well, but it is expensive.Yeah, most people new to Chinese think the characters are arbitrary, but they're really not.
I highly highly recommend the zipu (Character Chart) dictionary off Zhongwen.com.
It breaks down every character to tell you why it's written that way.
It's the best dictionary I've ever bought, for any language.I can't recommend Rosetta Stone, though.
It just doesn't work for learning Chinese, since grammer is so important to the language, and it doesn't teach you grammar.
I'd recommend the Fluenz software over that first.
Failing that, buying a couple different books could be a good way to go.
I like the Shaum's books on Chinese, as well as a green book called Essential Chinese Grammar, which ROCKS.I'm actually working on a grant right now that's teaching Mandarin to kids in San Diego.
Would be kind of cool if the OP was the father of one of these guys.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551950</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31553116</id>
	<title>Re:Heisig's technique</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269086760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I second Heisig's kanji/hanzi memorization method, which I found to be by far the most effective, although it was ~15 years ago now that I used it and can't really compare to what's available today.</p><p>One caveat, though, is that you need to commit to going all the way to the end if you start with his system -- the characters need to learned in a certain (partial) order, but that order is driven by shapes/character containment and has absolutely nothing to do with frequency of use.  In fact, if there's a correlation at all it's the opposite -- many of the first few hundred characters you'll learn are vanishingly rare in practice but happen to appear as components of more common characters you learn later.</p><p>Also, about mnemonics in general, I agree that for some kinds of memorization (and Chinese characters fall into this bucket) they are extremely useful, but it's not because they help you internalize the thing you're memorizing (only practice will do that) -- it's because they allow you to avoid breaking your "flow" by having to interrupt what you're reading and look something up in a dictionary.  (You can maybe think of items you just plain know as "hardwired", items you know via of mnemonics as "in cache memory" and items you don't know as "on disk".)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I second Heisig 's kanji/hanzi memorization method , which I found to be by far the most effective , although it was ~ 15 years ago now that I used it and ca n't really compare to what 's available today.One caveat , though , is that you need to commit to going all the way to the end if you start with his system -- the characters need to learned in a certain ( partial ) order , but that order is driven by shapes/character containment and has absolutely nothing to do with frequency of use .
In fact , if there 's a correlation at all it 's the opposite -- many of the first few hundred characters you 'll learn are vanishingly rare in practice but happen to appear as components of more common characters you learn later.Also , about mnemonics in general , I agree that for some kinds of memorization ( and Chinese characters fall into this bucket ) they are extremely useful , but it 's not because they help you internalize the thing you 're memorizing ( only practice will do that ) -- it 's because they allow you to avoid breaking your " flow " by having to interrupt what you 're reading and look something up in a dictionary .
( You can maybe think of items you just plain know as " hardwired " , items you know via of mnemonics as " in cache memory " and items you do n't know as " on disk " .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I second Heisig's kanji/hanzi memorization method, which I found to be by far the most effective, although it was ~15 years ago now that I used it and can't really compare to what's available today.One caveat, though, is that you need to commit to going all the way to the end if you start with his system -- the characters need to learned in a certain (partial) order, but that order is driven by shapes/character containment and has absolutely nothing to do with frequency of use.
In fact, if there's a correlation at all it's the opposite -- many of the first few hundred characters you'll learn are vanishingly rare in practice but happen to appear as components of more common characters you learn later.Also, about mnemonics in general, I agree that for some kinds of memorization (and Chinese characters fall into this bucket) they are extremely useful, but it's not because they help you internalize the thing you're memorizing (only practice will do that) -- it's because they allow you to avoid breaking your "flow" by having to interrupt what you're reading and look something up in a dictionary.
(You can maybe think of items you just plain know as "hardwired", items you know via of mnemonics as "in cache memory" and items you don't know as "on disk".
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552066</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31553270</id>
	<title>professional linguist input</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269087780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>do not listen to anyone telling you that flash cards work. or rosetta stone. the likelihood of them working is very small</p><p>having been around many other linguists, flash cards are only good for very, very short term memory. rosetta stone is a joke. border line scam really</p><p>i'm not saying they never will work<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... for some people they have, but, the number of people i know for whom flash cards and rosetta stone have worked is very, very small. about the same as the number of people i know that are referred to as "sponges" because they absorb language very easily</p><p>unless you are a sponge, you will have to work hard at it. it's not easy, and good luck finding shortcuts</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>do not listen to anyone telling you that flash cards work .
or rosetta stone .
the likelihood of them working is very smallhaving been around many other linguists , flash cards are only good for very , very short term memory .
rosetta stone is a joke .
border line scam reallyi 'm not saying they never will work ... for some people they have , but , the number of people i know for whom flash cards and rosetta stone have worked is very , very small .
about the same as the number of people i know that are referred to as " sponges " because they absorb language very easilyunless you are a sponge , you will have to work hard at it .
it 's not easy , and good luck finding shortcuts</tokentext>
<sentencetext>do not listen to anyone telling you that flash cards work.
or rosetta stone.
the likelihood of them working is very smallhaving been around many other linguists, flash cards are only good for very, very short term memory.
rosetta stone is a joke.
border line scam reallyi'm not saying they never will work ... for some people they have, but, the number of people i know for whom flash cards and rosetta stone have worked is very, very small.
about the same as the number of people i know that are referred to as "sponges" because they absorb language very easilyunless you are a sponge, you will have to work hard at it.
it's not easy, and good luck finding shortcuts</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31555400</id>
	<title>Re:You're doing it wrong, son.</title>
	<author>NotesSensei</author>
	<datestamp>1269110640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>&gt; Quite the forward thinker, huh?
Nope. Just currently living in Asia and having Chinese in-laws. The kids are aiming at university level Chinese within 5 years. Part of "mother-tongue" lessons which are mandatory in their school (If it would be father-tongue they would learn German<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-) )</htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; Quite the forward thinker , huh ?
Nope. Just currently living in Asia and having Chinese in-laws .
The kids are aiming at university level Chinese within 5 years .
Part of " mother-tongue " lessons which are mandatory in their school ( If it would be father-tongue they would learn German : - ) )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; Quite the forward thinker, huh?
Nope. Just currently living in Asia and having Chinese in-laws.
The kids are aiming at university level Chinese within 5 years.
Part of "mother-tongue" lessons which are mandatory in their school (If it would be father-tongue they would learn German :-) )</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552104</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551912</id>
	<title>Mnemonics</title>
	<author>Judinous</author>
	<datestamp>1269078120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>When learning kanji, I found that mnemonics were far and away the easiest way to remember all of those otherwise arbitrary Chinese characters.  If you make flash cards similar to what you find at <a href="http://kanjidamage.com/howto" title="kanjidamage.com">http://kanjidamage.com/howto</a> [kanjidamage.com] and go through them every day, you'll plow through them at a steady pace.  The mnemonic in that example incorporates the English meaning, pronunciation, and component radicals all in one sentence.  If you can remember that sentence and recognize at least one of those components, it becomes easy to figure out the rest.</htmltext>
<tokenext>When learning kanji , I found that mnemonics were far and away the easiest way to remember all of those otherwise arbitrary Chinese characters .
If you make flash cards similar to what you find at http : //kanjidamage.com/howto [ kanjidamage.com ] and go through them every day , you 'll plow through them at a steady pace .
The mnemonic in that example incorporates the English meaning , pronunciation , and component radicals all in one sentence .
If you can remember that sentence and recognize at least one of those components , it becomes easy to figure out the rest .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When learning kanji, I found that mnemonics were far and away the easiest way to remember all of those otherwise arbitrary Chinese characters.
If you make flash cards similar to what you find at http://kanjidamage.com/howto [kanjidamage.com] and go through them every day, you'll plow through them at a steady pace.
The mnemonic in that example incorporates the English meaning, pronunciation, and component radicals all in one sentence.
If you can remember that sentence and recognize at least one of those components, it becomes easy to figure out the rest.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31555520</id>
	<title>Tattoos</title>
	<author>Tablizer</author>
	<datestamp>1269112740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just tattoo the entire Chinese alphabet all over your arms. Then it's ready-to-use. Hide your lookups of hard-to-reach areas behind a cool Robot Dance.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just tattoo the entire Chinese alphabet all over your arms .
Then it 's ready-to-use .
Hide your lookups of hard-to-reach areas behind a cool Robot Dance .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just tattoo the entire Chinese alphabet all over your arms.
Then it's ready-to-use.
Hide your lookups of hard-to-reach areas behind a cool Robot Dance.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31559596</id>
	<title>Learning Chinese Characters by Matthews &amp; Matt</title>
	<author>thebiss</author>
	<datestamp>1269162060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Living in Sichuan, I have had good luck with the book "Learning Chinese Characters" by Matthews &amp; Matthews, Tuttle press. [http://www.amazon.com/Tuttle-Learning-Chinese-Characters-Revolutionary/dp/080483816X/ref=sr\_1\_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1269201386&amp;sr=8-1]  It provides graphical illustrations and stories that combine to relate hanzi with meaning and pronounciation.

Tuttle also publishes flashcards.  See related books at the above site.


I only which I had more time to learn. Good luck!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Living in Sichuan , I have had good luck with the book " Learning Chinese Characters " by Matthews &amp; Matthews , Tuttle press .
[ http : //www.amazon.com/Tuttle-Learning-Chinese-Characters-Revolutionary/dp/080483816X/ref = sr \ _1 \ _1 ? ie = UTF8&amp;s = books&amp;qid = 1269201386&amp;sr = 8-1 ] It provides graphical illustrations and stories that combine to relate hanzi with meaning and pronounciation .
Tuttle also publishes flashcards .
See related books at the above site .
I only which I had more time to learn .
Good luck !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Living in Sichuan, I have had good luck with the book "Learning Chinese Characters" by Matthews &amp; Matthews, Tuttle press.
[http://www.amazon.com/Tuttle-Learning-Chinese-Characters-Revolutionary/dp/080483816X/ref=sr\_1\_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1269201386&amp;sr=8-1]  It provides graphical illustrations and stories that combine to relate hanzi with meaning and pronounciation.
Tuttle also publishes flashcards.
See related books at the above site.
I only which I had more time to learn.
Good luck!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31554944</id>
	<title>Sound and shape of characters</title>
	<author>jensend</author>
	<datestamp>1269103920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ok, I know what you meant, but "relation between sound and shape of the characters" suggests to me something along the lines of the following: "see, o and u have this rounded shape, so you should round your lips when you make the corresponding sound; b, d, t, d, and k all have these big straight lines sticking out of them like spears sticking out of dead bodies, which suggest the violence of a plosive consonant."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ok , I know what you meant , but " relation between sound and shape of the characters " suggests to me something along the lines of the following : " see , o and u have this rounded shape , so you should round your lips when you make the corresponding sound ; b , d , t , d , and k all have these big straight lines sticking out of them like spears sticking out of dead bodies , which suggest the violence of a plosive consonant .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ok, I know what you meant, but "relation between sound and shape of the characters" suggests to me something along the lines of the following: "see, o and u have this rounded shape, so you should round your lips when you make the corresponding sound; b, d, t, d, and k all have these big straight lines sticking out of them like spears sticking out of dead bodies, which suggest the violence of a plosive consonant.
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552590</id>
	<title>Language-specific apps</title>
	<author>Aladrin</author>
	<datestamp>1269083280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Someone above recommended Remembering The Kanji (and it's Chinese version, Remembering the Hanzi), so I'm going to leave that alone.</p><p>ReadTheKanji.com is a -great- site for learning to read Japanese words.  It is the single best thing to help me read Japanese that I've found, and I've spent a lot of time looking.  I even thought about writing my own version, but other than some fairly minor features that I'm not ready for yet, I can't improve on it.</p><p>I don't think anything like it exists for Chinese, but if it did, that would be my recommendation.</p><p>This is more of a long-term thing, though...  If you expect them to learn particular characters -right now- instead of learning them more naturally over time, then a flashcard program like Anki is probably the way to go.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Someone above recommended Remembering The Kanji ( and it 's Chinese version , Remembering the Hanzi ) , so I 'm going to leave that alone.ReadTheKanji.com is a -great- site for learning to read Japanese words .
It is the single best thing to help me read Japanese that I 've found , and I 've spent a lot of time looking .
I even thought about writing my own version , but other than some fairly minor features that I 'm not ready for yet , I ca n't improve on it.I do n't think anything like it exists for Chinese , but if it did , that would be my recommendation.This is more of a long-term thing , though... If you expect them to learn particular characters -right now- instead of learning them more naturally over time , then a flashcard program like Anki is probably the way to go .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Someone above recommended Remembering The Kanji (and it's Chinese version, Remembering the Hanzi), so I'm going to leave that alone.ReadTheKanji.com is a -great- site for learning to read Japanese words.
It is the single best thing to help me read Japanese that I've found, and I've spent a lot of time looking.
I even thought about writing my own version, but other than some fairly minor features that I'm not ready for yet, I can't improve on it.I don't think anything like it exists for Chinese, but if it did, that would be my recommendation.This is more of a long-term thing, though...  If you expect them to learn particular characters -right now- instead of learning them more naturally over time, then a flashcard program like Anki is probably the way to go.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31553908</id>
	<title>Chinese orthography and the way to approach it</title>
	<author>tokenshi</author>
	<datestamp>1269093060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Being a linguist, I have some suggestions, sorry if i come across as condescending, but there are some things to be addressed first.
Orthography NEVER, EVER, EVAAAR correlates to genuine sound in natural language because there is no direct analog to represent sound via writing (yes, even the IPA [international phonemic alphabet] fails to do this.)  The reason is simple - We use a different part of the brain to process written language (The Visual Word Formation Area being one of them -- Posterior occipito-temporal lobe.)

Chinese characters do however have a logic behind them -- Most of the basic (i.e. first few THOUSAND) characters use radicals which imply the semantic relationship and topic of the character.  for concrete objects, these often have radicals which were derived from their sources (much like the latin alphabet and runes were once ideographs that closer represented real world items.)  Dog (gou3) for example has two main radicals - the left most being "claw" the right being a variation of 'mouth' (probably closer to jaws or maw semantically.)

My advice is thus multi fold:

1) Have the students learn the radicals in tandem with the character
2) Also stress the semantic side of the characters - Use antonyms (semantically separate) for adjectives/adverbs/verbs, as well as homonyms and semantically grouped items (i.e. chair, couch, etc. for things you sit on)
3) Learn some chinese with them, and use it!  Chinese uses a similar syntax (not identical mind you) to English, so you can learn basic nouns and verbs and use them when communicating with your children -- This will reinforce their aural/oral skills, but also help improve the rate at which the VWFA can process information as the pathways between brocas, weirnicke's, audio processing and VWFA are all intertwined.
4) Have them label EVERYTHING in the house with chinese -- The more they read a character, the easier it'll be... and since the characters are generally composed of one or more radicals, it will help them process more complex characters.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Being a linguist , I have some suggestions , sorry if i come across as condescending , but there are some things to be addressed first .
Orthography NEVER , EVER , EVAAAR correlates to genuine sound in natural language because there is no direct analog to represent sound via writing ( yes , even the IPA [ international phonemic alphabet ] fails to do this .
) The reason is simple - We use a different part of the brain to process written language ( The Visual Word Formation Area being one of them -- Posterior occipito-temporal lobe .
) Chinese characters do however have a logic behind them -- Most of the basic ( i.e .
first few THOUSAND ) characters use radicals which imply the semantic relationship and topic of the character .
for concrete objects , these often have radicals which were derived from their sources ( much like the latin alphabet and runes were once ideographs that closer represented real world items .
) Dog ( gou3 ) for example has two main radicals - the left most being " claw " the right being a variation of 'mouth ' ( probably closer to jaws or maw semantically .
) My advice is thus multi fold : 1 ) Have the students learn the radicals in tandem with the character 2 ) Also stress the semantic side of the characters - Use antonyms ( semantically separate ) for adjectives/adverbs/verbs , as well as homonyms and semantically grouped items ( i.e .
chair , couch , etc .
for things you sit on ) 3 ) Learn some chinese with them , and use it !
Chinese uses a similar syntax ( not identical mind you ) to English , so you can learn basic nouns and verbs and use them when communicating with your children -- This will reinforce their aural/oral skills , but also help improve the rate at which the VWFA can process information as the pathways between brocas , weirnicke 's , audio processing and VWFA are all intertwined .
4 ) Have them label EVERYTHING in the house with chinese -- The more they read a character , the easier it 'll be... and since the characters are generally composed of one or more radicals , it will help them process more complex characters .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Being a linguist, I have some suggestions, sorry if i come across as condescending, but there are some things to be addressed first.
Orthography NEVER, EVER, EVAAAR correlates to genuine sound in natural language because there is no direct analog to represent sound via writing (yes, even the IPA [international phonemic alphabet] fails to do this.
)  The reason is simple - We use a different part of the brain to process written language (The Visual Word Formation Area being one of them -- Posterior occipito-temporal lobe.
)

Chinese characters do however have a logic behind them -- Most of the basic (i.e.
first few THOUSAND) characters use radicals which imply the semantic relationship and topic of the character.
for concrete objects, these often have radicals which were derived from their sources (much like the latin alphabet and runes were once ideographs that closer represented real world items.
)  Dog (gou3) for example has two main radicals - the left most being "claw" the right being a variation of 'mouth' (probably closer to jaws or maw semantically.
)

My advice is thus multi fold:

1) Have the students learn the radicals in tandem with the character
2) Also stress the semantic side of the characters - Use antonyms (semantically separate) for adjectives/adverbs/verbs, as well as homonyms and semantically grouped items (i.e.
chair, couch, etc.
for things you sit on)
3) Learn some chinese with them, and use it!
Chinese uses a similar syntax (not identical mind you) to English, so you can learn basic nouns and verbs and use them when communicating with your children -- This will reinforce their aural/oral skills, but also help improve the rate at which the VWFA can process information as the pathways between brocas, weirnicke's, audio processing and VWFA are all intertwined.
4) Have them label EVERYTHING in the house with chinese -- The more they read a character, the easier it'll be... and since the characters are generally composed of one or more radicals, it will help them process more complex characters.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552334</id>
	<title>Use it or lose it</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269081360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Import Chinese comic books.</p><p>The language is simplified. They're designed for kids and they're designed to entertain, though you'll be missing many of the cultural references.</p><p>There is absolutely no point trying to memorize something if you don't use it. It's like trying to hold water in your hands, it'll dribble away in weeks if not months.</p><p>Trying to learn any language without being immersed in the culture is extremely difficult. I reckon current language teaching methods are bizarre; defining grammar, memorizing words. No native speaker learns language that way. Learn by example and your brain will build the grammar and vocabulary as it goes. TV/Radio, newspapers, web sites all help and can be downloaded usually. Better, move to China.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Import Chinese comic books.The language is simplified .
They 're designed for kids and they 're designed to entertain , though you 'll be missing many of the cultural references.There is absolutely no point trying to memorize something if you do n't use it .
It 's like trying to hold water in your hands , it 'll dribble away in weeks if not months.Trying to learn any language without being immersed in the culture is extremely difficult .
I reckon current language teaching methods are bizarre ; defining grammar , memorizing words .
No native speaker learns language that way .
Learn by example and your brain will build the grammar and vocabulary as it goes .
TV/Radio , newspapers , web sites all help and can be downloaded usually .
Better , move to China .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Import Chinese comic books.The language is simplified.
They're designed for kids and they're designed to entertain, though you'll be missing many of the cultural references.There is absolutely no point trying to memorize something if you don't use it.
It's like trying to hold water in your hands, it'll dribble away in weeks if not months.Trying to learn any language without being immersed in the culture is extremely difficult.
I reckon current language teaching methods are bizarre; defining grammar, memorizing words.
No native speaker learns language that way.
Learn by example and your brain will build the grammar and vocabulary as it goes.
TV/Radio, newspapers, web sites all help and can be downloaded usually.
Better, move to China.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551758</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552212</id>
	<title>Re:Language settings?</title>
	<author>wagr</author>
	<datestamp>1269080400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Anecdote: I've regularly switched between English (US) and Japanese on my computers at home and at work for nearly a decade (and doing so keeps getting easier).  I started learning Japanese in 1999 and found playing with it on the computer helped by adding experience using the language as opposed to just memorizing for tests.</p><p>As a multi-language computer user, I've been careful about application design, which has come in very handy these last three years as we've grown to support our services in more countries.  Three weeks ago, one of our salesmen forwarded a question from a potential client in Japan.  My answer was this simple: "Yes, switch the regional setting to Japanese and restart the program."</p><p>The downside is I now get frustrated when I see an English sentence fail to get across some subtle meaning when Japanese has a direct word for it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Anecdote : I 've regularly switched between English ( US ) and Japanese on my computers at home and at work for nearly a decade ( and doing so keeps getting easier ) .
I started learning Japanese in 1999 and found playing with it on the computer helped by adding experience using the language as opposed to just memorizing for tests.As a multi-language computer user , I 've been careful about application design , which has come in very handy these last three years as we 've grown to support our services in more countries .
Three weeks ago , one of our salesmen forwarded a question from a potential client in Japan .
My answer was this simple : " Yes , switch the regional setting to Japanese and restart the program .
" The downside is I now get frustrated when I see an English sentence fail to get across some subtle meaning when Japanese has a direct word for it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Anecdote: I've regularly switched between English (US) and Japanese on my computers at home and at work for nearly a decade (and doing so keeps getting easier).
I started learning Japanese in 1999 and found playing with it on the computer helped by adding experience using the language as opposed to just memorizing for tests.As a multi-language computer user, I've been careful about application design, which has come in very handy these last three years as we've grown to support our services in more countries.
Three weeks ago, one of our salesmen forwarded a question from a potential client in Japan.
My answer was this simple: "Yes, switch the regional setting to Japanese and restart the program.
"The downside is I now get frustrated when I see an English sentence fail to get across some subtle meaning when Japanese has a direct word for it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551794</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31556874</id>
	<title>Learning Chinese (hanzi)</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269179100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There is only one way to memorize hanzi. Muscle memory!  You must memorize the stroke order.  You must write the word 30 times with the right order.  Flash cards don't work.  If you just look at words you will start to confuse similar words.  For example  and  start to look the same.  Anouther example is </p><p>in the digital age stroke order is important because writting recognition software relies on this stroke order.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is only one way to memorize hanzi .
Muscle memory !
You must memorize the stroke order .
You must write the word 30 times with the right order .
Flash cards do n't work .
If you just look at words you will start to confuse similar words .
For example and start to look the same .
Anouther example is in the digital age stroke order is important because writting recognition software relies on this stroke order .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is only one way to memorize hanzi.
Muscle memory!
You must memorize the stroke order.
You must write the word 30 times with the right order.
Flash cards don't work.
If you just look at words you will start to confuse similar words.
For example  and  start to look the same.
Anouther example is in the digital age stroke order is important because writting recognition software relies on this stroke order.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31564560</id>
	<title>Re:Heisig's technique</title>
	<author>kubitus</author>
	<datestamp>1269249600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Thanks a lot!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Thanks a lot !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thanks a lot!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552066</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551762</id>
	<title>Same?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269076980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm no expert on this, but I don't see a relation between sound and shape of our letters either. So the answer is to study as hard as you can and also: repetition!</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm no expert on this , but I do n't see a relation between sound and shape of our letters either .
So the answer is to study as hard as you can and also : repetition !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm no expert on this, but I don't see a relation between sound and shape of our letters either.
So the answer is to study as hard as you can and also: repetition!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31555262</id>
	<title>Re:Refuse to Memorize</title>
	<author>NotesSensei</author>
	<datestamp>1269108720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Doesn't work when you want to date a Chinese girl and whisper sweet or nutty things in her ear.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Does n't work when you want to date a Chinese girl and whisper sweet or nutty things in her ear .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Doesn't work when you want to date a Chinese girl and whisper sweet or nutty things in her ear.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31553082</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31555838</id>
	<title>Great discussion - summary and some clarification</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269162540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hey everybody,</p><p>
thank you very much for your contributions. I really appreciate the time you spend to discuss that question.<br>
Some clarification:</p><ul>
<li>My kids are 10 and go to the Catholic High Primary School in Singapore, Primary 4 level.</li><li>They speak Chinese to their grand parents who don't speak English.</li><li>What they are learning is "higher Chinese" (AFAIK a term not used outside the Singaporean educational system) that is supposed to put them on equal footing with native speakers on university level at end of Secondary 4.</li><li>They learn Chinese since Kindergarten.</li></ul><p>So we are beyond the stage of the first 500 chars -- and it is still a chore. Therefor I was asking.
<br>
Summing up responses so far (in no particular order):</p><ul>
<li>Flash cards (the physical thing)</li><li>Rosetta Stone</li><li> <a href="http://ichi2.net/anki/" title="ichi2.net" rel="nofollow">Anki</a> [ichi2.net] </li><li> <a href="http://www.nciku.com/" title="nciku.com" rel="nofollow">Nciku</a> [nciku.com] </li><li>Buzan</li><li>Dating Chinese girls (I like that one)</li><li> <a href="http://www.mnemosyne-proj.org/" title="mnemosyne-proj.org" rel="nofollow">Mnemosyne</a> [mnemosyne-proj.org] </li><li> <a href="http://enterzon.com/" title="enterzon.com" rel="nofollow">Zon</a> [enterzon.com] (the MMO to learn Chinese while playing) read a review </li><li>Found some nice books: <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&amp;location=http\%3A\%2F\%2Fwww.amazon.com\%2Fs\%3Fie\%3DUTF8\%26x\%3D0\%26ref\_\%3Dnb\_sb\_noss\%26y\%3D0\%26field-keywords\%3DFun\%2520with\%2520Chinese\%2520Characters\%26url\%3Dsearch-alias\%253Dus-stripbooks-tree&amp;tag=wissenetblog-20&amp;linkCode=ur2&amp;camp=1789&amp;creative=390957" title="amazon.com" rel="nofollow">Fun with Chinese Characters</a> [amazon.com] </li><li> <a href="http://www.loopware.com/iflash/" title="loopware.com" rel="nofollow">iFlash for Mac</a> [loopware.com] (I wonder is there a Linux or OLPC version too)</li><li> <a href="http://pinyin.info/readings/texts/visible/index.html" title="pinyin.info" rel="nofollow">PinYin Info</a> [pinyin.info] </li><li> <a href="http://www.byki.com/" title="byki.com" rel="nofollow">ByKi</a> [byki.com] </li><li> <a href="http://www.zhongwen.com/" title="zhongwen.com" rel="nofollow">Zhong Wen</a> [zhongwen.com] (for unaware readers: that means Chinese in PinYin notation)</li><li> <a href="http://www.wenlin.com/" title="wenlin.com" rel="nofollow">WenLin Software</a> [wenlin.com] </li><li> <a href="http://www.supermemo.com/" title="supermemo.com" rel="nofollow">SuperMemo</a> [supermemo.com] (with a <a href="http://nihongoperapera.com/mnemosyne-anki-review.html" title="nihongoperapera.com" rel="nofollow">comparison</a> [nihongoperapera.com] to Anki and a store to <a href="http://www.super-memo.com/chinese1000.html" title="super-memo.com" rel="nofollow">buy Chinese content</a> [super-memo.com] </li><li> <a href="http://www.verypracticalchinese.com/" title="verypracticalchinese.com" rel="nofollow">VeryPracticalChinese</a> [verypracticalchinese.com] (found via <a href="http://vpc-mandarin.blogspot.com/2009/04/how-and-why-to-write-chinese-by-typing.html" title="blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">this blog</a> [blogspot.com] </li><li> <a href="http://www.skritter.com/" title="skritter.com" rel="nofollow">Skritter</a> [skritter.com] </li><li>I found <a href="http://chinesepod.com/" title="chinesepod.com" rel="nofollow">ChinesePod</a> [chinesepod.com]. Not sure what to make of it</li><li> <a href="http://code.google.com/p/laoshi/" title="google.com" rel="nofollow">Lao Shi</a> [google.com] (Chinese for "Teacher") - OpenSource</li></ul><p>
Again, thx a lot! (and sorry for the caveman English -- don't get it? Read the <a href="http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1589670&amp;cid=31553174" title="slashdot.org" rel="nofollow">comments</a> [slashdot.org])</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hey everybody , thank you very much for your contributions .
I really appreciate the time you spend to discuss that question .
Some clarification : My kids are 10 and go to the Catholic High Primary School in Singapore , Primary 4 level.They speak Chinese to their grand parents who do n't speak English.What they are learning is " higher Chinese " ( AFAIK a term not used outside the Singaporean educational system ) that is supposed to put them on equal footing with native speakers on university level at end of Secondary 4.They learn Chinese since Kindergarten.So we are beyond the stage of the first 500 chars -- and it is still a chore .
Therefor I was asking .
Summing up responses so far ( in no particular order ) : Flash cards ( the physical thing ) Rosetta Stone Anki [ ichi2.net ] Nciku [ nciku.com ] BuzanDating Chinese girls ( I like that one ) Mnemosyne [ mnemosyne-proj.org ] Zon [ enterzon.com ] ( the MMO to learn Chinese while playing ) read a review Found some nice books : Fun with Chinese Characters [ amazon.com ] iFlash for Mac [ loopware.com ] ( I wonder is there a Linux or OLPC version too ) PinYin Info [ pinyin.info ] ByKi [ byki.com ] Zhong Wen [ zhongwen.com ] ( for unaware readers : that means Chinese in PinYin notation ) WenLin Software [ wenlin.com ] SuperMemo [ supermemo.com ] ( with a comparison [ nihongoperapera.com ] to Anki and a store to buy Chinese content [ super-memo.com ] VeryPracticalChinese [ verypracticalchinese.com ] ( found via this blog [ blogspot.com ] Skritter [ skritter.com ] I found ChinesePod [ chinesepod.com ] .
Not sure what to make of it Lao Shi [ google.com ] ( Chinese for " Teacher " ) - OpenSource Again , thx a lot !
( and sorry for the caveman English -- do n't get it ?
Read the comments [ slashdot.org ] )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hey everybody,
thank you very much for your contributions.
I really appreciate the time you spend to discuss that question.
Some clarification:
My kids are 10 and go to the Catholic High Primary School in Singapore, Primary 4 level.They speak Chinese to their grand parents who don't speak English.What they are learning is "higher Chinese" (AFAIK a term not used outside the Singaporean educational system) that is supposed to put them on equal footing with native speakers on university level at end of Secondary 4.They learn Chinese since Kindergarten.So we are beyond the stage of the first 500 chars -- and it is still a chore.
Therefor I was asking.
Summing up responses so far (in no particular order):
Flash cards (the physical thing)Rosetta Stone Anki [ichi2.net]  Nciku [nciku.com] BuzanDating Chinese girls (I like that one) Mnemosyne [mnemosyne-proj.org]  Zon [enterzon.com] (the MMO to learn Chinese while playing) read a review Found some nice books: Fun with Chinese Characters [amazon.com]  iFlash for Mac [loopware.com] (I wonder is there a Linux or OLPC version too) PinYin Info [pinyin.info]  ByKi [byki.com]  Zhong Wen [zhongwen.com] (for unaware readers: that means Chinese in PinYin notation) WenLin Software [wenlin.com]  SuperMemo [supermemo.com] (with a comparison [nihongoperapera.com] to Anki and a store to buy Chinese content [super-memo.com]  VeryPracticalChinese [verypracticalchinese.com] (found via this blog [blogspot.com]  Skritter [skritter.com] I found ChinesePod [chinesepod.com].
Not sure what to make of it Lao Shi [google.com] (Chinese for "Teacher") - OpenSource
Again, thx a lot!
(and sorry for the caveman English -- don't get it?
Read the comments [slashdot.org])</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31555982</id>
	<title>Why Chinese Is So Damn Hard</title>
	<author>DNS-and-BIND</author>
	<datestamp>1269165540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Quoted at length from <a href="http://www.pinyin.info/readings/texts/moser.html" title="pinyin.info" rel="nofollow">Why Chinese Is So Damn Hard</a> [pinyin.info].  If you like this, go read the whole thing.</p><ol> <li>Because the writing system is ridiculous. The other day one of my fellow graduate students, someone who has been studying Chinese for ten years or more, said to me "My research is really hampered by the fact that I still just can't read Chinese. It takes me hours to get through two or three pages, and I can't skim to save my life." This would be an astonishing admission for a tenth-year student of, say, French literature, yet it is a comment I hear all the time among my peers</li><li>Because the language doesn't have the common sense to use an alphabet. Chinese people I know who have studied English for a few years can usually write with a handwriting style that is almost indistinguishable from that of the average American. Very few Americans, on the other hand, ever learn to produce a natural calligraphic hand in Chinese that resembles anything but that of an awkward Chinese third-grader. </li><li>Because the writing system just ain't very phonetic.  One could say that Chinese is phonetic in the way that sex is aerobic: technically so, but in practical use not the most salient thing about it. Furthermore, this phonetic aspect of the language doesn't really become very useful until you've learned a few hundred characters, and even when you've learned two thousand, the feeble phoneticity of Chinese will never provide you with the constant memory prod that the phonetic quality of English does.</li><li>Because you can't cheat by using cognates.  I remember when I had been studying Chinese very hard for about three years, I had an interesting experience. One day I happened to find a Spanish-language newspaper sitting on a seat next to me. I picked it up out of curiosity. "Hmm," I thought to myself. "I've never studied Spanish in my life. I wonder how much of this I can understand." At random I picked a short article about an airplane crash and started to read. I found I could basically glean, with some guesswork, most of the information from the article. The crash took place near Los Angeles. 186 people were killed. There were no survivors. The plane crashed just one minute after take-off. There was nothing on the flight recorder to indicate a critical situation, and the tower was unaware of any emergency. The plane had just been serviced three days before and no mechanical problems had been found. And so on. After finishing the article I had a sudden discouraging realization: Having never studied a day of Spanish, I could read a Spanish newspaper more easily than I could a Chinese newspaper after more than three years of studying Chinese.</li><li>Because even looking up a word in the dictionary is complicated. One of the most unreasonably difficult things about learning Chinese is that merely learning how to look up a word in the dictionary is about the equivalent of an entire semester of secretarial school. When I was in Taiwan, I heard that they sometimes held dictionary look-up contests in the junior high schools. Imagine a language where simply looking a word up in the dictionary is considered a skill like debate or volleyball! Another problem with looking up words in the dictionary has to do with the nature of written Chinese. In most languages it's pretty obvious where the word boundaries lie -- there are spaces between the words. If you don't know the word in question, it's usually fairly clear what you should look up. (What actually constitutes a word is a very subtle issue, of course, but for my purposes here, what I'm saying is basically correct.) In Chinese there are spaces between characters, but it takes quite a lot of knowledge of the language and often some genuine sleuth work to tell where word boundaries lie; thus it's often trial and error to look up a word. It would be as if English were written thus:<br>
FEAR LESS LY OUT SPOKE N BUT SOME WHAT HUMOR LESS NEW ENG LAND BORN LEAD ACT OR GEORGE MICHAEL SON EX PRESS ED OUT RAGE TO DAY AT TH</li></ol></htmltext>
<tokenext>Quoted at length from Why Chinese Is So Damn Hard [ pinyin.info ] .
If you like this , go read the whole thing .
Because the writing system is ridiculous .
The other day one of my fellow graduate students , someone who has been studying Chinese for ten years or more , said to me " My research is really hampered by the fact that I still just ca n't read Chinese .
It takes me hours to get through two or three pages , and I ca n't skim to save my life .
" This would be an astonishing admission for a tenth-year student of , say , French literature , yet it is a comment I hear all the time among my peersBecause the language does n't have the common sense to use an alphabet .
Chinese people I know who have studied English for a few years can usually write with a handwriting style that is almost indistinguishable from that of the average American .
Very few Americans , on the other hand , ever learn to produce a natural calligraphic hand in Chinese that resembles anything but that of an awkward Chinese third-grader .
Because the writing system just ai n't very phonetic .
One could say that Chinese is phonetic in the way that sex is aerobic : technically so , but in practical use not the most salient thing about it .
Furthermore , this phonetic aspect of the language does n't really become very useful until you 've learned a few hundred characters , and even when you 've learned two thousand , the feeble phoneticity of Chinese will never provide you with the constant memory prod that the phonetic quality of English does.Because you ca n't cheat by using cognates .
I remember when I had been studying Chinese very hard for about three years , I had an interesting experience .
One day I happened to find a Spanish-language newspaper sitting on a seat next to me .
I picked it up out of curiosity .
" Hmm , " I thought to myself .
" I 've never studied Spanish in my life .
I wonder how much of this I can understand .
" At random I picked a short article about an airplane crash and started to read .
I found I could basically glean , with some guesswork , most of the information from the article .
The crash took place near Los Angeles .
186 people were killed .
There were no survivors .
The plane crashed just one minute after take-off .
There was nothing on the flight recorder to indicate a critical situation , and the tower was unaware of any emergency .
The plane had just been serviced three days before and no mechanical problems had been found .
And so on .
After finishing the article I had a sudden discouraging realization : Having never studied a day of Spanish , I could read a Spanish newspaper more easily than I could a Chinese newspaper after more than three years of studying Chinese.Because even looking up a word in the dictionary is complicated .
One of the most unreasonably difficult things about learning Chinese is that merely learning how to look up a word in the dictionary is about the equivalent of an entire semester of secretarial school .
When I was in Taiwan , I heard that they sometimes held dictionary look-up contests in the junior high schools .
Imagine a language where simply looking a word up in the dictionary is considered a skill like debate or volleyball !
Another problem with looking up words in the dictionary has to do with the nature of written Chinese .
In most languages it 's pretty obvious where the word boundaries lie -- there are spaces between the words .
If you do n't know the word in question , it 's usually fairly clear what you should look up .
( What actually constitutes a word is a very subtle issue , of course , but for my purposes here , what I 'm saying is basically correct .
) In Chinese there are spaces between characters , but it takes quite a lot of knowledge of the language and often some genuine sleuth work to tell where word boundaries lie ; thus it 's often trial and error to look up a word .
It would be as if English were written thus : FEAR LESS LY OUT SPOKE N BUT SOME WHAT HUMOR LESS NEW ENG LAND BORN LEAD ACT OR GEORGE MICHAEL SON EX PRESS ED OUT RAGE TO DAY AT TH</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Quoted at length from Why Chinese Is So Damn Hard [pinyin.info].
If you like this, go read the whole thing.
Because the writing system is ridiculous.
The other day one of my fellow graduate students, someone who has been studying Chinese for ten years or more, said to me "My research is really hampered by the fact that I still just can't read Chinese.
It takes me hours to get through two or three pages, and I can't skim to save my life.
" This would be an astonishing admission for a tenth-year student of, say, French literature, yet it is a comment I hear all the time among my peersBecause the language doesn't have the common sense to use an alphabet.
Chinese people I know who have studied English for a few years can usually write with a handwriting style that is almost indistinguishable from that of the average American.
Very few Americans, on the other hand, ever learn to produce a natural calligraphic hand in Chinese that resembles anything but that of an awkward Chinese third-grader.
Because the writing system just ain't very phonetic.
One could say that Chinese is phonetic in the way that sex is aerobic: technically so, but in practical use not the most salient thing about it.
Furthermore, this phonetic aspect of the language doesn't really become very useful until you've learned a few hundred characters, and even when you've learned two thousand, the feeble phoneticity of Chinese will never provide you with the constant memory prod that the phonetic quality of English does.Because you can't cheat by using cognates.
I remember when I had been studying Chinese very hard for about three years, I had an interesting experience.
One day I happened to find a Spanish-language newspaper sitting on a seat next to me.
I picked it up out of curiosity.
"Hmm," I thought to myself.
"I've never studied Spanish in my life.
I wonder how much of this I can understand.
" At random I picked a short article about an airplane crash and started to read.
I found I could basically glean, with some guesswork, most of the information from the article.
The crash took place near Los Angeles.
186 people were killed.
There were no survivors.
The plane crashed just one minute after take-off.
There was nothing on the flight recorder to indicate a critical situation, and the tower was unaware of any emergency.
The plane had just been serviced three days before and no mechanical problems had been found.
And so on.
After finishing the article I had a sudden discouraging realization: Having never studied a day of Spanish, I could read a Spanish newspaper more easily than I could a Chinese newspaper after more than three years of studying Chinese.Because even looking up a word in the dictionary is complicated.
One of the most unreasonably difficult things about learning Chinese is that merely learning how to look up a word in the dictionary is about the equivalent of an entire semester of secretarial school.
When I was in Taiwan, I heard that they sometimes held dictionary look-up contests in the junior high schools.
Imagine a language where simply looking a word up in the dictionary is considered a skill like debate or volleyball!
Another problem with looking up words in the dictionary has to do with the nature of written Chinese.
In most languages it's pretty obvious where the word boundaries lie -- there are spaces between the words.
If you don't know the word in question, it's usually fairly clear what you should look up.
(What actually constitutes a word is a very subtle issue, of course, but for my purposes here, what I'm saying is basically correct.
) In Chinese there are spaces between characters, but it takes quite a lot of knowledge of the language and often some genuine sleuth work to tell where word boundaries lie; thus it's often trial and error to look up a word.
It would be as if English were written thus:
FEAR LESS LY OUT SPOKE N BUT SOME WHAT HUMOR LESS NEW ENG LAND BORN LEAD ACT OR GEORGE MICHAEL SON EX PRESS ED OUT RAGE TO DAY AT TH</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31554828</id>
	<title>Re:A proven technique</title>
	<author>cababunga</author>
	<datestamp>1269102240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You should ask how old his kids are first.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You should ask how old his kids are first .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You should ask how old his kids are first.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551770</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31554850</id>
	<title>Re:Radical Spelling</title>
	<author>Lars512</author>
	<datestamp>1269102540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>There are ideographic relationships between concepts and what's in the characters.  Each of the elements in complex characters bears some of the meaning of the word.  Dictionaries for Chinese and Japanese Kanji are in fact organized in this manner (by character radical).  I can't recommend a particular manner of memorizing them (i failed abysmally at the task as a child, and am functionally illiterate as a result), however the relationships are there if you want to look for them.</p></div><p>I also have studied Chinese as a child and Japanese as an adult, neither to a fluent level, and can vouch for the parent's suggestion to look at components during study. That's about half of Heisig's method, which other posters have mentioned, the other half being to not worry about pronunciation until you've first learned the meaning of many characters. (Aside: plenty of people vouch for Heisig, plenty criticise it too; I don't know of any studies showing that it really works, only anecdotes from individuals.)</p><p>The only point I'll add is that learning characters is a big memorisation task, and many characters aren't based on strong visual meaning. Don't feel bad about inventing a story to help you remember, even if the story is technically wrong or makes incorrect assumptions about components. Chinese and Japanese teachers make up such stories all the time to teach characters to their students, since as a pure memorisation technique it works.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>There are ideographic relationships between concepts and what 's in the characters .
Each of the elements in complex characters bears some of the meaning of the word .
Dictionaries for Chinese and Japanese Kanji are in fact organized in this manner ( by character radical ) .
I ca n't recommend a particular manner of memorizing them ( i failed abysmally at the task as a child , and am functionally illiterate as a result ) , however the relationships are there if you want to look for them.I also have studied Chinese as a child and Japanese as an adult , neither to a fluent level , and can vouch for the parent 's suggestion to look at components during study .
That 's about half of Heisig 's method , which other posters have mentioned , the other half being to not worry about pronunciation until you 've first learned the meaning of many characters .
( Aside : plenty of people vouch for Heisig , plenty criticise it too ; I do n't know of any studies showing that it really works , only anecdotes from individuals .
) The only point I 'll add is that learning characters is a big memorisation task , and many characters are n't based on strong visual meaning .
Do n't feel bad about inventing a story to help you remember , even if the story is technically wrong or makes incorrect assumptions about components .
Chinese and Japanese teachers make up such stories all the time to teach characters to their students , since as a pure memorisation technique it works .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are ideographic relationships between concepts and what's in the characters.
Each of the elements in complex characters bears some of the meaning of the word.
Dictionaries for Chinese and Japanese Kanji are in fact organized in this manner (by character radical).
I can't recommend a particular manner of memorizing them (i failed abysmally at the task as a child, and am functionally illiterate as a result), however the relationships are there if you want to look for them.I also have studied Chinese as a child and Japanese as an adult, neither to a fluent level, and can vouch for the parent's suggestion to look at components during study.
That's about half of Heisig's method, which other posters have mentioned, the other half being to not worry about pronunciation until you've first learned the meaning of many characters.
(Aside: plenty of people vouch for Heisig, plenty criticise it too; I don't know of any studies showing that it really works, only anecdotes from individuals.
)The only point I'll add is that learning characters is a big memorisation task, and many characters aren't based on strong visual meaning.
Don't feel bad about inventing a story to help you remember, even if the story is technically wrong or makes incorrect assumptions about components.
Chinese and Japanese teachers make up such stories all the time to teach characters to their students, since as a pure memorisation technique it works.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551778</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31554464</id>
	<title>Re:Heisig's technique</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269098400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Much as I love the free stuff, I do have to also put in a plug for www.zhongwen.com.</p><p>If you dont mind forking out a little cash, the author there has put together a fascinating "genealogy" of Chinese characters.  It helps a lot with memory if you can get some idea of the relationships between families of characters.</p><p>Back to the semi-free stuff out there, check out www.flashcardexchange.com.  It has a web interface, and also has a huge and growing database of flashcard sets that loads of people (includeing me) have contributed.  You only pay if you want advanced features like sound &amp; motion &amp; Laetner drill algorithms.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Much as I love the free stuff , I do have to also put in a plug for www.zhongwen.com.If you dont mind forking out a little cash , the author there has put together a fascinating " genealogy " of Chinese characters .
It helps a lot with memory if you can get some idea of the relationships between families of characters.Back to the semi-free stuff out there , check out www.flashcardexchange.com .
It has a web interface , and also has a huge and growing database of flashcard sets that loads of people ( includeing me ) have contributed .
You only pay if you want advanced features like sound &amp; motion &amp; Laetner drill algorithms .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Much as I love the free stuff, I do have to also put in a plug for www.zhongwen.com.If you dont mind forking out a little cash, the author there has put together a fascinating "genealogy" of Chinese characters.
It helps a lot with memory if you can get some idea of the relationships between families of characters.Back to the semi-free stuff out there, check out www.flashcardexchange.com.
It has a web interface, and also has a huge and growing database of flashcard sets that loads of people (includeing me) have contributed.
You only pay if you want advanced features like sound &amp; motion &amp; Laetner drill algorithms.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552066</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31553292</id>
	<title>Re:Not for English, either</title>
	<author>jabithew</author>
	<datestamp>1269088080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's actually <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History\_of\_the\_alphabet#Descendants\_of\_the\_Aramaic\_abjad" title="wikipedia.org">where our alphabet comes from</a> [wikipedia.org] (via the Greeks and Romans).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's actually where our alphabet comes from [ wikipedia.org ] ( via the Greeks and Romans ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's actually where our alphabet comes from [wikipedia.org] (via the Greeks and Romans).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551796</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31555904</id>
	<title>Re:Language settings?</title>
	<author>DNS-and-BIND</author>
	<datestamp>1269164040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Whenever you start a Chinese program, and you get garbage instead of Chinese characters, use <a href="http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/tools/apploc.mspx" title="microsoft.com">Microsoft AppLocale</a> [microsoft.com] to fix the problem.  Works like a charm.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Whenever you start a Chinese program , and you get garbage instead of Chinese characters , use Microsoft AppLocale [ microsoft.com ] to fix the problem .
Works like a charm .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Whenever you start a Chinese program, and you get garbage instead of Chinese characters, use Microsoft AppLocale [microsoft.com] to fix the problem.
Works like a charm.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551794</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552104</id>
	<title>You're doing it wrong, son.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269079500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; My kids are learning Chinese in school.</p><p>Quite the forward thinker, huh?</p><p>&gt; While the grammar is drop-dead simple, writing is a challenge since there is no relation between sound and shape of the characters.</p><p>You're doing it wrong, as far as I understand. Sound is very much important for anglophones; not so in other languages. Even in my own related Portuguese, the written form is fundamental to recognize etimology. I've found there's another mindset when dealing with some oriental languages. This is a problem in itself, because a few people seems to have a hard time at talking... from the usage of the word "dumb", it seems not being able to talk is not highly regarded among you.</p><p>Such is the importance of sound to you... Hence confusions about "their" and "there", "you're" and "your", "its" and "it's" etc.</p><p>Other cultures view refraining from speaking in a better light. "Uneventful is noble", a Japanese saying... or so I've read.</p><p>&gt; I would like to know if there good techniques (using technology or not) to help memorize large amount of information, especially Chinese characters.</p><p>From what I've been shown regarding Kanji and Chinese ideograms, you can divide an ideogram in subparts, each with its meaning and then recall what their reunion would mean.</p><p>I can even give a simple example. Mind you, I can't speak neither Japanese nor Chinese. (Li, if you ever reads this, thanks... I hope you're well)</p><p>Up: </p><p>Down: </p><p>Stop:  (i.e., cannot go up nor down)</p><p>&gt; Most of the stuff I googled only helps on learning speaking.</p><p>I'd suggest it's a good starting point, as spoken Chinese may be orders of magnitude easier than written... After you get the basics of speaking and hearing, maybe writing could be easier... after all, this is how children start.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; My kids are learning Chinese in school.Quite the forward thinker , huh ? &gt; While the grammar is drop-dead simple , writing is a challenge since there is no relation between sound and shape of the characters.You 're doing it wrong , as far as I understand .
Sound is very much important for anglophones ; not so in other languages .
Even in my own related Portuguese , the written form is fundamental to recognize etimology .
I 've found there 's another mindset when dealing with some oriental languages .
This is a problem in itself , because a few people seems to have a hard time at talking... from the usage of the word " dumb " , it seems not being able to talk is not highly regarded among you.Such is the importance of sound to you... Hence confusions about " their " and " there " , " you 're " and " your " , " its " and " it 's " etc.Other cultures view refraining from speaking in a better light .
" Uneventful is noble " , a Japanese saying... or so I 've read. &gt; I would like to know if there good techniques ( using technology or not ) to help memorize large amount of information , especially Chinese characters.From what I 've been shown regarding Kanji and Chinese ideograms , you can divide an ideogram in subparts , each with its meaning and then recall what their reunion would mean.I can even give a simple example .
Mind you , I ca n't speak neither Japanese nor Chinese .
( Li , if you ever reads this , thanks... I hope you 're well ) Up : Down : Stop : ( i.e. , can not go up nor down ) &gt; Most of the stuff I googled only helps on learning speaking.I 'd suggest it 's a good starting point , as spoken Chinese may be orders of magnitude easier than written... After you get the basics of speaking and hearing , maybe writing could be easier... after all , this is how children start .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; My kids are learning Chinese in school.Quite the forward thinker, huh?&gt; While the grammar is drop-dead simple, writing is a challenge since there is no relation between sound and shape of the characters.You're doing it wrong, as far as I understand.
Sound is very much important for anglophones; not so in other languages.
Even in my own related Portuguese, the written form is fundamental to recognize etimology.
I've found there's another mindset when dealing with some oriental languages.
This is a problem in itself, because a few people seems to have a hard time at talking... from the usage of the word "dumb", it seems not being able to talk is not highly regarded among you.Such is the importance of sound to you... Hence confusions about "their" and "there", "you're" and "your", "its" and "it's" etc.Other cultures view refraining from speaking in a better light.
"Uneventful is noble", a Japanese saying... or so I've read.&gt; I would like to know if there good techniques (using technology or not) to help memorize large amount of information, especially Chinese characters.From what I've been shown regarding Kanji and Chinese ideograms, you can divide an ideogram in subparts, each with its meaning and then recall what their reunion would mean.I can even give a simple example.
Mind you, I can't speak neither Japanese nor Chinese.
(Li, if you ever reads this, thanks... I hope you're well)Up: Down: Stop:  (i.e., cannot go up nor down)&gt; Most of the stuff I googled only helps on learning speaking.I'd suggest it's a good starting point, as spoken Chinese may be orders of magnitude easier than written... After you get the basics of speaking and hearing, maybe writing could be easier... after all, this is how children start.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552864</id>
	<title>Re:Incorrect assumption!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269085320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I like how people purpose mnemonic techniques and everything for remembering the Chinese characters, when they're composed of relatively simple characters.  Sure there are 214 radicals, and some chars without radicals, but seriously, remembering that a word is composed of "tree tree cover" is like remembering that "marajuana" has a "j" that is pronounced like an "h" because it's from Spanish.</p><p>So much of this confusion about Chinese characters is because they're so opaque, and no one seems to bother to teach them well enough.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I like how people purpose mnemonic techniques and everything for remembering the Chinese characters , when they 're composed of relatively simple characters .
Sure there are 214 radicals , and some chars without radicals , but seriously , remembering that a word is composed of " tree tree cover " is like remembering that " marajuana " has a " j " that is pronounced like an " h " because it 's from Spanish.So much of this confusion about Chinese characters is because they 're so opaque , and no one seems to bother to teach them well enough .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I like how people purpose mnemonic techniques and everything for remembering the Chinese characters, when they're composed of relatively simple characters.
Sure there are 214 radicals, and some chars without radicals, but seriously, remembering that a word is composed of "tree tree cover" is like remembering that "marajuana" has a "j" that is pronounced like an "h" because it's from Spanish.So much of this confusion about Chinese characters is because they're so opaque, and no one seems to bother to teach them well enough.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551950</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552832</id>
	<title>Re:Incorrect assumption!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269085020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>On the same subject, I think every student of Chinese and Japanese should be forced to read <a href="http://pinyin.info/readings/texts/visible/index.html" title="pinyin.info" rel="nofollow"> this </a> [pinyin.info].<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>On the same subject , I think every student of Chinese and Japanese should be forced to read this [ pinyin.info ] .
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On the same subject, I think every student of Chinese and Japanese should be forced to read  this  [pinyin.info].
:)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551950</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552162</id>
	<title>Use Colors + components + Anki</title>
	<author>Murmel84</author>
	<datestamp>1269080040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>I started studying Chinese in September too and I'm trying a lot of techniques to memorize it quickly and efficiently.
<br> <br>
As others have already mentioned, Anki (http://ichi2.net/anki/) is the way to go for memorizing vocabulary, as it uses a psychological algorithm that helps you repeating things as often as you need to. If you then install the pinyin toolkit plugin for learning chinese it's the best thing to learn chinese vocabulary as it imports all your translations, pinyin and even sounds automatically when you just enter the Hanzi.
<br> <br>
This pinyin toolkit also uses a nice colour system for the tones. Basically, every character is displayed in a color depending on its tone:
red = first tone
orange = second tone
green = third tone
blue = fourth tone
black = no tone
<br> <br>
You can go even further and WRITE the characters in those colors when practicing. The tones of each character will stay in your memory WAY better!
<br> <br>
Another tip when trying to memorize chinese characters: try to grasp the meaning of their components and learning to read and write them will be way more easy. You can use sites like nciku.com or archchinese.com where characters are split up in their components. However, you won't find everything there.
There's also an extremely good book called "Learning Chinese Characters" (http://www.amazon.com/Tuttle-Learning-Chinese-Characters-Revolutionary/dp/080483816X/) - it teaches you the 800 most common chinese characters by telling you everything about their components and even giving you stories to remember the components of each character. It's by far the best book I've found for learning how to write chinese.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I started studying Chinese in September too and I 'm trying a lot of techniques to memorize it quickly and efficiently .
As others have already mentioned , Anki ( http : //ichi2.net/anki/ ) is the way to go for memorizing vocabulary , as it uses a psychological algorithm that helps you repeating things as often as you need to .
If you then install the pinyin toolkit plugin for learning chinese it 's the best thing to learn chinese vocabulary as it imports all your translations , pinyin and even sounds automatically when you just enter the Hanzi .
This pinyin toolkit also uses a nice colour system for the tones .
Basically , every character is displayed in a color depending on its tone : red = first tone orange = second tone green = third tone blue = fourth tone black = no tone You can go even further and WRITE the characters in those colors when practicing .
The tones of each character will stay in your memory WAY better !
Another tip when trying to memorize chinese characters : try to grasp the meaning of their components and learning to read and write them will be way more easy .
You can use sites like nciku.com or archchinese.com where characters are split up in their components .
However , you wo n't find everything there .
There 's also an extremely good book called " Learning Chinese Characters " ( http : //www.amazon.com/Tuttle-Learning-Chinese-Characters-Revolutionary/dp/080483816X/ ) - it teaches you the 800 most common chinese characters by telling you everything about their components and even giving you stories to remember the components of each character .
It 's by far the best book I 've found for learning how to write chinese .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I started studying Chinese in September too and I'm trying a lot of techniques to memorize it quickly and efficiently.
As others have already mentioned, Anki (http://ichi2.net/anki/) is the way to go for memorizing vocabulary, as it uses a psychological algorithm that helps you repeating things as often as you need to.
If you then install the pinyin toolkit plugin for learning chinese it's the best thing to learn chinese vocabulary as it imports all your translations, pinyin and even sounds automatically when you just enter the Hanzi.
This pinyin toolkit also uses a nice colour system for the tones.
Basically, every character is displayed in a color depending on its tone:
red = first tone
orange = second tone
green = third tone
blue = fourth tone
black = no tone
 
You can go even further and WRITE the characters in those colors when practicing.
The tones of each character will stay in your memory WAY better!
Another tip when trying to memorize chinese characters: try to grasp the meaning of their components and learning to read and write them will be way more easy.
You can use sites like nciku.com or archchinese.com where characters are split up in their components.
However, you won't find everything there.
There's also an extremely good book called "Learning Chinese Characters" (http://www.amazon.com/Tuttle-Learning-Chinese-Characters-Revolutionary/dp/080483816X/) - it teaches you the 800 most common chinese characters by telling you everything about their components and even giving you stories to remember the components of each character.
It's by far the best book I've found for learning how to write chinese.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31555674</id>
	<title>Re:Tony Buzan and Daniel Tennet Memetic techniques</title>
	<author>nerdyalien</author>
	<datestamp>1269202140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>mod parent up!</p><p>(Pardon me for going bit off-topic here, but I think this is the perfect place to share my experience)</p><p><div class="quote"><p>one of the key reasons why the chinese don't need a large intelligence agency is because their entire population is actually their intelligence agency, having been trained from a very young age to memorise vast amounts of information - for example, the 10,000 or so chinese characters.</p></div><p>Something I noticed first hand. I have taught maths and programming to Chinese or Chinese-decent students. I observed that a sizeable portion of them struggling to cope up with logical/methodical flow in approaching problems in those subjects. I hardly saw any ingenuity in terms of solutions, most of them are slapdash jobs. However, they ace the final paper by simply memorizing the past paper solutions and vomiting them on the examination hour.</p><p>Another experience from my college years, I usually performed well in any subject that needs intense logical thinking and methodical approach (like programming, digital logic etc). But my Chinese peers absolutely hated them. However, they were very good at subjects with barrage of details that one requires to memorize in order to answer the final paper. Furthermore, if there was a change of the format, usually I score better than them in the final examination (as their memorizing is obsolete for the new paper format).</p><p>My native language is an Indo-Aryan language (I am from South Asia BTW) and I was using it as my primary language for 18 years. It has about 20 vowels, 36 consonants and many more (if interested, please refer here <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinhala\_script" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinhala\_script</a> [wikipedia.org]). However, most of them are inter-related i.e. slight variation of another. Hence it is easy to remember in terms of 'relationships'. Grammar is diabolical (but not as German or Russian)... still it is manageable if you memorize the logical flow.</p><p>So maybe this is why I tend to be good at logics better than memorizing stuff.</p><p>(Going back to the topic....)</p><p>In my opinion, nothing can beat 'being in an environment where majority speaks the target language'. Because you have no option but to speak in the target language to get things done.</p><p>I was horrible at communicating in English about 8 years ago (maybe still I am). But then I moved out of my home town, into an environment where majority speaks English (yep.. it was college). So I had no option but to speak in English. I remember how difficult it was when I first went to see the doctor (in the new country) after a bad food poisoning. Step-by-step, along the way I learnt how to communicate properly in English.</p><p>Quite luckily, there were good instructors (as in, they don't speak slang versions of English) at the language unit in my college. I sought their help quite badly at the early stages, until the point I can manage my self.</p><p>The other trick is, watching movies with subtitles. I know this sounds silly. But I did it a lot in the early days, so I can catch proper expressions. (as for Chinese/Japanese, Anime is a good choice.. then again, most DVDs provide Chinese translation I believe).</p><p>Maybe now I can manage to speak in a neutral accent and listen without a problem. But still, I am quite bad at writing. However, I did TOEFL last August and posted 107/120. Not bad compared to 8 years ago, where I passed it marginally.</p><p>Now I am thinking of taking up French or German (I wish to work/travel in EU). But still, I'm wondering whether I have to invest more time on improving my English skills. What do you think?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>mod parent up !
( Pardon me for going bit off-topic here , but I think this is the perfect place to share my experience ) one of the key reasons why the chinese do n't need a large intelligence agency is because their entire population is actually their intelligence agency , having been trained from a very young age to memorise vast amounts of information - for example , the 10,000 or so chinese characters.Something I noticed first hand .
I have taught maths and programming to Chinese or Chinese-decent students .
I observed that a sizeable portion of them struggling to cope up with logical/methodical flow in approaching problems in those subjects .
I hardly saw any ingenuity in terms of solutions , most of them are slapdash jobs .
However , they ace the final paper by simply memorizing the past paper solutions and vomiting them on the examination hour.Another experience from my college years , I usually performed well in any subject that needs intense logical thinking and methodical approach ( like programming , digital logic etc ) .
But my Chinese peers absolutely hated them .
However , they were very good at subjects with barrage of details that one requires to memorize in order to answer the final paper .
Furthermore , if there was a change of the format , usually I score better than them in the final examination ( as their memorizing is obsolete for the new paper format ) .My native language is an Indo-Aryan language ( I am from South Asia BTW ) and I was using it as my primary language for 18 years .
It has about 20 vowels , 36 consonants and many more ( if interested , please refer here http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinhala \ _script [ wikipedia.org ] ) .
However , most of them are inter-related i.e .
slight variation of another .
Hence it is easy to remember in terms of 'relationships' .
Grammar is diabolical ( but not as German or Russian ) ... still it is manageable if you memorize the logical flow.So maybe this is why I tend to be good at logics better than memorizing stuff .
( Going back to the topic.... ) In my opinion , nothing can beat 'being in an environment where majority speaks the target language' .
Because you have no option but to speak in the target language to get things done.I was horrible at communicating in English about 8 years ago ( maybe still I am ) .
But then I moved out of my home town , into an environment where majority speaks English ( yep.. it was college ) .
So I had no option but to speak in English .
I remember how difficult it was when I first went to see the doctor ( in the new country ) after a bad food poisoning .
Step-by-step , along the way I learnt how to communicate properly in English.Quite luckily , there were good instructors ( as in , they do n't speak slang versions of English ) at the language unit in my college .
I sought their help quite badly at the early stages , until the point I can manage my self.The other trick is , watching movies with subtitles .
I know this sounds silly .
But I did it a lot in the early days , so I can catch proper expressions .
( as for Chinese/Japanese , Anime is a good choice.. then again , most DVDs provide Chinese translation I believe ) .Maybe now I can manage to speak in a neutral accent and listen without a problem .
But still , I am quite bad at writing .
However , I did TOEFL last August and posted 107/120 .
Not bad compared to 8 years ago , where I passed it marginally.Now I am thinking of taking up French or German ( I wish to work/travel in EU ) .
But still , I 'm wondering whether I have to invest more time on improving my English skills .
What do you think ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>mod parent up!
(Pardon me for going bit off-topic here, but I think this is the perfect place to share my experience)one of the key reasons why the chinese don't need a large intelligence agency is because their entire population is actually their intelligence agency, having been trained from a very young age to memorise vast amounts of information - for example, the 10,000 or so chinese characters.Something I noticed first hand.
I have taught maths and programming to Chinese or Chinese-decent students.
I observed that a sizeable portion of them struggling to cope up with logical/methodical flow in approaching problems in those subjects.
I hardly saw any ingenuity in terms of solutions, most of them are slapdash jobs.
However, they ace the final paper by simply memorizing the past paper solutions and vomiting them on the examination hour.Another experience from my college years, I usually performed well in any subject that needs intense logical thinking and methodical approach (like programming, digital logic etc).
But my Chinese peers absolutely hated them.
However, they were very good at subjects with barrage of details that one requires to memorize in order to answer the final paper.
Furthermore, if there was a change of the format, usually I score better than them in the final examination (as their memorizing is obsolete for the new paper format).My native language is an Indo-Aryan language (I am from South Asia BTW) and I was using it as my primary language for 18 years.
It has about 20 vowels, 36 consonants and many more (if interested, please refer here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinhala\_script [wikipedia.org]).
However, most of them are inter-related i.e.
slight variation of another.
Hence it is easy to remember in terms of 'relationships'.
Grammar is diabolical (but not as German or Russian)... still it is manageable if you memorize the logical flow.So maybe this is why I tend to be good at logics better than memorizing stuff.
(Going back to the topic....)In my opinion, nothing can beat 'being in an environment where majority speaks the target language'.
Because you have no option but to speak in the target language to get things done.I was horrible at communicating in English about 8 years ago (maybe still I am).
But then I moved out of my home town, into an environment where majority speaks English (yep.. it was college).
So I had no option but to speak in English.
I remember how difficult it was when I first went to see the doctor (in the new country) after a bad food poisoning.
Step-by-step, along the way I learnt how to communicate properly in English.Quite luckily, there were good instructors (as in, they don't speak slang versions of English) at the language unit in my college.
I sought their help quite badly at the early stages, until the point I can manage my self.The other trick is, watching movies with subtitles.
I know this sounds silly.
But I did it a lot in the early days, so I can catch proper expressions.
(as for Chinese/Japanese, Anime is a good choice.. then again, most DVDs provide Chinese translation I believe).Maybe now I can manage to speak in a neutral accent and listen without a problem.
But still, I am quite bad at writing.
However, I did TOEFL last August and posted 107/120.
Not bad compared to 8 years ago, where I passed it marginally.Now I am thinking of taking up French or German (I wish to work/travel in EU).
But still, I'm wondering whether I have to invest more time on improving my English skills.
What do you think?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552502</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31554784</id>
	<title>Re:Heisig's technique</title>
	<author>cababunga</author>
	<datestamp>1269101760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Speaking of these books, one should mention that there are free PDF samples provided by authors (there are two authors for the Remembering Hanzi books: James W. Heisig and Timothy W. Richardson). The samples include first 60 pages of the books, which is all introductory material and first 108 characters. Although not everyone likes this approach, most people, including myself, find the books of a great use.

<a href="http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/miscPublications/pdf/RH/RH\%20Simplified-sample.pdf" title="nanzan-u.ac.jp" rel="nofollow">http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/miscPublications/pdf/RH/RH\%20Simplified-sample.pdf</a> [nanzan-u.ac.jp]
<a href="http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/miscPublications/pdf/RH/RK\%20Traditional-sample.pdf" title="nanzan-u.ac.jp" rel="nofollow">http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/miscPublications/pdf/RH/RK\%20Traditional-sample.pdf</a> [nanzan-u.ac.jp]
<a href="http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/miscPublications/Remembering\%20Hanzi\%201.htm" title="nanzan-u.ac.jp" rel="nofollow">http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/miscPublications/Remembering\%20Hanzi\%201.htm</a> [nanzan-u.ac.jp]</htmltext>
<tokenext>Speaking of these books , one should mention that there are free PDF samples provided by authors ( there are two authors for the Remembering Hanzi books : James W. Heisig and Timothy W. Richardson ) . The samples include first 60 pages of the books , which is all introductory material and first 108 characters .
Although not everyone likes this approach , most people , including myself , find the books of a great use .
http : //www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/miscPublications/pdf/RH/RH \ % 20Simplified-sample.pdf [ nanzan-u.ac.jp ] http : //www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/miscPublications/pdf/RH/RK \ % 20Traditional-sample.pdf [ nanzan-u.ac.jp ] http : //www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/miscPublications/Remembering \ % 20Hanzi \ % 201.htm [ nanzan-u.ac.jp ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Speaking of these books, one should mention that there are free PDF samples provided by authors (there are two authors for the Remembering Hanzi books: James W. Heisig and Timothy W. Richardson). The samples include first 60 pages of the books, which is all introductory material and first 108 characters.
Although not everyone likes this approach, most people, including myself, find the books of a great use.
http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/miscPublications/pdf/RH/RH\%20Simplified-sample.pdf [nanzan-u.ac.jp]
http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/miscPublications/pdf/RH/RK\%20Traditional-sample.pdf [nanzan-u.ac.jp]
http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/publications/miscPublications/Remembering\%20Hanzi\%201.htm [nanzan-u.ac.jp]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552066</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31582806</id>
	<title>Re:Hmmm - Re:A proven technique</title>
	<author>KlausBreuer</author>
	<datestamp>1269355620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wow, sounds familiar.</p><p>My chinese ex-girlfriend (now wife<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;) simply insists that I speak german to her. Every time I accidentially switch back into English, she'll remind me again. Works great - in addition to 8 months of very intensive german course training, of course...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Wow , sounds familiar.My chinese ex-girlfriend ( now wife ; ) simply insists that I speak german to her .
Every time I accidentially switch back into English , she 'll remind me again .
Works great - in addition to 8 months of very intensive german course training , of course.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wow, sounds familiar.My chinese ex-girlfriend (now wife ;) simply insists that I speak german to her.
Every time I accidentially switch back into English, she'll remind me again.
Works great - in addition to 8 months of very intensive german course training, of course...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31553118</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31553750</id>
	<title>Skritter</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269091920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hm.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. ate my last post.</p><p>Anyway - check out www.skritter.com - been using it for a while now and am making masses of progress with it. Allows you to write words/characters, tells you if they're correct and reminds you if you get them wrong etc.</p><p>Way better than flash cards.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hm .
/. ate my last post.Anyway - check out www.skritter.com - been using it for a while now and am making masses of progress with it .
Allows you to write words/characters , tells you if they 're correct and reminds you if you get them wrong etc.Way better than flash cards .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hm.
/. ate my last post.Anyway - check out www.skritter.com - been using it for a while now and am making masses of progress with it.
Allows you to write words/characters, tells you if they're correct and reminds you if you get them wrong etc.Way better than flash cards.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552046</id>
	<title>void WasteYourTime (void)</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269079140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>while (MemorizedCharacterCount  TOTAL\_COLLAPSE &amp;&amp; OfficialChineseWritingSystem != PINYIN) { cram(); cram(); cram();<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/* ThinkAboutReturnOnInvestint(); */ cram(); }</p><p>forget (EVERYTHING);</p><p>Seriously, China will not own the 21st century, and they'll be even weaker in the 22nd.  Demographics is everything.  Sure, they're a big country (presuming they don't collapse like the Soviet Union did), but their per-capita GDP will be lagging, and China will grow old before it grows rich.  And all Chinese people who are worth talking to are learning English.  What matters is the ideas you can express, not how many languages you can express them in, and English will remain the most prestigious cultural, technological, and scientific language for the foreseeable future.  And, phonetic insanity aside, English does deserve to be the global language by being the language of the culture responsible for modern science, the industrial revolution, and relative economic and personal freedom.  The only reason China is doing so well economically is because they've abandoned Chinese ideas and made use of the ideas that were imported through places like Hong Kong (still the freest economy in the world, but thanks exclusively to its English influence).  Of the top 5 Russian writers of the 20th century (and, yes, I'm counting Ayn Rand) 3 wrote in English, 1 fled to (eventually) Vermont!  By the end of this century 70\% of the world's 800 million remaining Chinese and 90\% of the world's 4,500 million South Asians will speak decent English!</p><p>The only language that can supersede English is something like Lojban, and studying that would actually be good for children's mental development.  The Chinese language is like an explosion at the irrationality factory that's been burning for 5000 years!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>while ( MemorizedCharacterCount TOTAL \ _COLLAPSE &amp;&amp; OfficialChineseWritingSystem ! = PINYIN ) { cram ( ) ; cram ( ) ; cram ( ) ; / * ThinkAboutReturnOnInvestint ( ) ; * / cram ( ) ; } forget ( EVERYTHING ) ; Seriously , China will not own the 21st century , and they 'll be even weaker in the 22nd .
Demographics is everything .
Sure , they 're a big country ( presuming they do n't collapse like the Soviet Union did ) , but their per-capita GDP will be lagging , and China will grow old before it grows rich .
And all Chinese people who are worth talking to are learning English .
What matters is the ideas you can express , not how many languages you can express them in , and English will remain the most prestigious cultural , technological , and scientific language for the foreseeable future .
And , phonetic insanity aside , English does deserve to be the global language by being the language of the culture responsible for modern science , the industrial revolution , and relative economic and personal freedom .
The only reason China is doing so well economically is because they 've abandoned Chinese ideas and made use of the ideas that were imported through places like Hong Kong ( still the freest economy in the world , but thanks exclusively to its English influence ) .
Of the top 5 Russian writers of the 20th century ( and , yes , I 'm counting Ayn Rand ) 3 wrote in English , 1 fled to ( eventually ) Vermont !
By the end of this century 70 \ % of the world 's 800 million remaining Chinese and 90 \ % of the world 's 4,500 million South Asians will speak decent English ! The only language that can supersede English is something like Lojban , and studying that would actually be good for children 's mental development .
The Chinese language is like an explosion at the irrationality factory that 's been burning for 5000 years !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>while (MemorizedCharacterCount  TOTAL\_COLLAPSE &amp;&amp; OfficialChineseWritingSystem != PINYIN) { cram(); cram(); cram(); /* ThinkAboutReturnOnInvestint(); */ cram(); }forget (EVERYTHING);Seriously, China will not own the 21st century, and they'll be even weaker in the 22nd.
Demographics is everything.
Sure, they're a big country (presuming they don't collapse like the Soviet Union did), but their per-capita GDP will be lagging, and China will grow old before it grows rich.
And all Chinese people who are worth talking to are learning English.
What matters is the ideas you can express, not how many languages you can express them in, and English will remain the most prestigious cultural, technological, and scientific language for the foreseeable future.
And, phonetic insanity aside, English does deserve to be the global language by being the language of the culture responsible for modern science, the industrial revolution, and relative economic and personal freedom.
The only reason China is doing so well economically is because they've abandoned Chinese ideas and made use of the ideas that were imported through places like Hong Kong (still the freest economy in the world, but thanks exclusively to its English influence).
Of the top 5 Russian writers of the 20th century (and, yes, I'm counting Ayn Rand) 3 wrote in English, 1 fled to (eventually) Vermont!
By the end of this century 70\% of the world's 800 million remaining Chinese and 90\% of the world's 4,500 million South Asians will speak decent English!The only language that can supersede English is something like Lojban, and studying that would actually be good for children's mental development.
The Chinese language is like an explosion at the irrationality factory that's been burning for 5000 years!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552256</id>
	<title>Write and write again</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269080760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Write the characters as you review.  The motion builds muscle memory so you don't have to think</p><p>I use flash cards with definition and/or pronunciation on one side and the character on the other.  I write the character on a practice sheet (basically, a page of squares large enough to fit one character) and if I miswrite even one stroke, I count it as incorrect and practice it correctively several times before returning the card to the stack.</p><p>Others have said flash cards, in particular Anki, which I use.  It's good for maintaining your vocabulary.<br>Also, zhongwen.com lists characters broken down by constituent parts (not merely radicals).  If you need more, Wenlin (www.wenlin.com) is an ugly kludge of a program, but the content is well worth the investment.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Write the characters as you review .
The motion builds muscle memory so you do n't have to thinkI use flash cards with definition and/or pronunciation on one side and the character on the other .
I write the character on a practice sheet ( basically , a page of squares large enough to fit one character ) and if I miswrite even one stroke , I count it as incorrect and practice it correctively several times before returning the card to the stack.Others have said flash cards , in particular Anki , which I use .
It 's good for maintaining your vocabulary.Also , zhongwen.com lists characters broken down by constituent parts ( not merely radicals ) .
If you need more , Wenlin ( www.wenlin.com ) is an ugly kludge of a program , but the content is well worth the investment .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Write the characters as you review.
The motion builds muscle memory so you don't have to thinkI use flash cards with definition and/or pronunciation on one side and the character on the other.
I write the character on a practice sheet (basically, a page of squares large enough to fit one character) and if I miswrite even one stroke, I count it as incorrect and practice it correctively several times before returning the card to the stack.Others have said flash cards, in particular Anki, which I use.
It's good for maintaining your vocabulary.Also, zhongwen.com lists characters broken down by constituent parts (not merely radicals).
If you need more, Wenlin (www.wenlin.com) is an ugly kludge of a program, but the content is well worth the investment.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552196</id>
	<title>Learn Chinese... by playing an MMO</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269080280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This MMO was the subject of a previous<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. story, and since others have commented on other useful techniques, I'll leave you with this:</p><p> <a href="http://enterzon.com/" title="enterzon.com">Zon</a> [enterzon.com] (<a href="http://www.massively.com/2008/06/04/zon-the-mmo-that-teaches-you-to-speak-chinese/" title="massively.com">http://www.massively.com/2008/06/04/zon-the-mmo-that-teaches-you-to-speak-chinese/</a> [massively.com])</p><p>I've also seen it said (in a comment on here perhaps?) that it is preferable not to use pinyin romanisation as that doesn't help as much with making the correct sounds. Whatever it was pointed at <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwoyeu\_Romatzyh" title="wikipedia.org">GR</a> [wikipedia.org] as an alternative. Don't take that as gospel though as I may have no idea what I'm talking about!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This MMO was the subject of a previous / .
story , and since others have commented on other useful techniques , I 'll leave you with this : Zon [ enterzon.com ] ( http : //www.massively.com/2008/06/04/zon-the-mmo-that-teaches-you-to-speak-chinese/ [ massively.com ] ) I 've also seen it said ( in a comment on here perhaps ?
) that it is preferable not to use pinyin romanisation as that does n't help as much with making the correct sounds .
Whatever it was pointed at GR [ wikipedia.org ] as an alternative .
Do n't take that as gospel though as I may have no idea what I 'm talking about !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This MMO was the subject of a previous /.
story, and since others have commented on other useful techniques, I'll leave you with this: Zon [enterzon.com] (http://www.massively.com/2008/06/04/zon-the-mmo-that-teaches-you-to-speak-chinese/ [massively.com])I've also seen it said (in a comment on here perhaps?
) that it is preferable not to use pinyin romanisation as that doesn't help as much with making the correct sounds.
Whatever it was pointed at GR [wikipedia.org] as an alternative.
Don't take that as gospel though as I may have no idea what I'm talking about!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552292</id>
	<title>structure of characters</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269081060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
The complicated-looking characters are actually built out of smaller, standardized parts. If your kids want to be able to look up characters in a dictionary, they're going to have to learn to recognize the more common <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_Kangxi\_radicals" title="wikipedia.org">Kangxi radicals</a> [wikipedia.org] anyway. The 7 most common radicals are used in about 10,000 characters. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese\_character#Phono-semantic\_compounds" title="wikipedia.org">Most characters</a> [wikipedia.org] are formed by combining a semantic part with a phonetic part. Once you learn a bunch of these, it makes it much easier to remember words made out of them. Lots of words are actually compounds of characters, e.g., "computer" is "electric brain." Once you know "electric" and "brain," it's not particularly hard to remember the two-character compound.
</p><p>
It sounds like in the short term your kids are having an easier time with the spoken language than with the writing system. My experience in terms of long-term recall is exactly the opposite.
I took a Chinese class 13 years ago, and have forgotten the vast majority of what I learned. Of the part I do remember, the easiest to remember is characters. The part I really can't remember at all anymore is what tones the words are. E.g., I can remember that "red" is "hua," but I can't remember which tone that "hua" is. Because of that, I have no chance at all of being able to speak and be understood.
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The complicated-looking characters are actually built out of smaller , standardized parts .
If your kids want to be able to look up characters in a dictionary , they 're going to have to learn to recognize the more common Kangxi radicals [ wikipedia.org ] anyway .
The 7 most common radicals are used in about 10,000 characters .
Most characters [ wikipedia.org ] are formed by combining a semantic part with a phonetic part .
Once you learn a bunch of these , it makes it much easier to remember words made out of them .
Lots of words are actually compounds of characters , e.g. , " computer " is " electric brain .
" Once you know " electric " and " brain , " it 's not particularly hard to remember the two-character compound .
It sounds like in the short term your kids are having an easier time with the spoken language than with the writing system .
My experience in terms of long-term recall is exactly the opposite .
I took a Chinese class 13 years ago , and have forgotten the vast majority of what I learned .
Of the part I do remember , the easiest to remember is characters .
The part I really ca n't remember at all anymore is what tones the words are .
E.g. , I can remember that " red " is " hua , " but I ca n't remember which tone that " hua " is .
Because of that , I have no chance at all of being able to speak and be understood .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
The complicated-looking characters are actually built out of smaller, standardized parts.
If your kids want to be able to look up characters in a dictionary, they're going to have to learn to recognize the more common Kangxi radicals [wikipedia.org] anyway.
The 7 most common radicals are used in about 10,000 characters.
Most characters [wikipedia.org] are formed by combining a semantic part with a phonetic part.
Once you learn a bunch of these, it makes it much easier to remember words made out of them.
Lots of words are actually compounds of characters, e.g., "computer" is "electric brain.
" Once you know "electric" and "brain," it's not particularly hard to remember the two-character compound.
It sounds like in the short term your kids are having an easier time with the spoken language than with the writing system.
My experience in terms of long-term recall is exactly the opposite.
I took a Chinese class 13 years ago, and have forgotten the vast majority of what I learned.
Of the part I do remember, the easiest to remember is characters.
The part I really can't remember at all anymore is what tones the words are.
E.g., I can remember that "red" is "hua," but I can't remember which tone that "hua" is.
Because of that, I have no chance at all of being able to speak and be understood.
</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551994</id>
	<title>Kanji</title>
	<author>AXNJAXN</author>
	<datestamp>1269078840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I had to learn Kanji (albeit much fewer than you'll have to for Chinese) when I took Japanese in college, and the easiest way I found to learn the characters is to memorize what the simplest characters look like first. That way, the more complicated ones are just combinations of things you already recognize. Plus, their meanings are usually related in some way.

Beyond that, a program named Anki helped me a great deal with learning the Kanji since I didn't have to spend a ton of time for characters that were easy to learn.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I had to learn Kanji ( albeit much fewer than you 'll have to for Chinese ) when I took Japanese in college , and the easiest way I found to learn the characters is to memorize what the simplest characters look like first .
That way , the more complicated ones are just combinations of things you already recognize .
Plus , their meanings are usually related in some way .
Beyond that , a program named Anki helped me a great deal with learning the Kanji since I did n't have to spend a ton of time for characters that were easy to learn .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I had to learn Kanji (albeit much fewer than you'll have to for Chinese) when I took Japanese in college, and the easiest way I found to learn the characters is to memorize what the simplest characters look like first.
That way, the more complicated ones are just combinations of things you already recognize.
Plus, their meanings are usually related in some way.
Beyond that, a program named Anki helped me a great deal with learning the Kanji since I didn't have to spend a ton of time for characters that were easy to learn.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31554112</id>
	<title>Re:Heisig's technique</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269094920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I can't recommend Heisig enough. Using his method I learned all the kanji in a little over 2 months. It's the only way to learn them and not forget, ever.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I ca n't recommend Heisig enough .
Using his method I learned all the kanji in a little over 2 months .
It 's the only way to learn them and not forget , ever .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can't recommend Heisig enough.
Using his method I learned all the kanji in a little over 2 months.
It's the only way to learn them and not forget, ever.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552066</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31554668</id>
	<title>Re:A proven technique</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269100500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This might work if the native speaker doesn't speak your language. I've been with a native Chinese speaker for 10 years and I'm not beyond the beginner stage.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This might work if the native speaker does n't speak your language .
I 've been with a native Chinese speaker for 10 years and I 'm not beyond the beginner stage .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This might work if the native speaker doesn't speak your language.
I've been with a native Chinese speaker for 10 years and I'm not beyond the beginner stage.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551770</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31554922</id>
	<title>Re:Same?</title>
	<author>Taco Cowboy</author>
	<datestamp>1269103620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I don't see a relation between sound and shape of letters</p></div><p>Actually, there are !!</p><p>And I tried to illustrate it on an earlier message in this thread but unfortunately Slashdot does NOT support double-byte Unicode and I couldn't post that very useful trick my Chinese language teacher taught me.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't see a relation between sound and shape of lettersActually , there are !
! And I tried to illustrate it on an earlier message in this thread but unfortunately Slashdot does NOT support double-byte Unicode and I could n't post that very useful trick my Chinese language teacher taught me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't see a relation between sound and shape of lettersActually, there are !
!And I tried to illustrate it on an earlier message in this thread but unfortunately Slashdot does NOT support double-byte Unicode and I couldn't post that very useful trick my Chinese language teacher taught me.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551762</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31559066</id>
	<title>Re:Flashcards - Mnemosyne, ChinesePod</title>
	<author>patniemeyer</author>
	<datestamp>1269201120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The open source Mnemosyne flash card system is excellent:</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; <a href="http://www.mnemosyne-proj.org/" title="mnemosyne-proj.org">http://www.mnemosyne-proj.org/</a> [mnemosyne-proj.org]</p><p>It uses a spaced repetition algorithm and has some features such as not introducing more than a few new cards into the pool at a time (so that you are never overwhelmed).</p><p>Also - ChinesePod is an excellent source for spoken language lessons... some free.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The open source Mnemosyne flash card system is excellent :     http : //www.mnemosyne-proj.org/ [ mnemosyne-proj.org ] It uses a spaced repetition algorithm and has some features such as not introducing more than a few new cards into the pool at a time ( so that you are never overwhelmed ) .Also - ChinesePod is an excellent source for spoken language lessons... some free .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The open source Mnemosyne flash card system is excellent:
    http://www.mnemosyne-proj.org/ [mnemosyne-proj.org]It uses a spaced repetition algorithm and has some features such as not introducing more than a few new cards into the pool at a time (so that you are never overwhelmed).Also - ChinesePod is an excellent source for spoken language lessons... some free.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551758</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31553694</id>
	<title>Chinese schoolchildren don't get much sleep.</title>
	<author>everlong</author>
	<datestamp>1269091380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Characters are a bitch, no way around it. Your kids will have to dedicate a large chunk of their time to learning reading and writing in Chinese. After that it's a continuous chore to retain that knowledge, especially in writing. After several years study, it can seem like you're set to the Sisyphean task of building a mountain out of sand--focus on building up the peak with new knowledge and other memories decay. That said, there are a billion plus living examples it can be done, and there are things that can certainly help. Just don't think it will be easy.

</p><p>With Chinese it's kind of hard to dive into new reading material. You either know a character already, or have no clue what it means or even how to pronounce it. That, and every character being unique, means reading/writing will be the limiting factor in your kids' language study and the most time-consuming to remedy. Below are some tips to break down the task.

</p><p>First thing is to learn the radicals. There's a limited number of them, and at least one in every character. Learn how to draw them because they're used over and over again. Learn their meanings too, because a character's meaning is usually at least loosely tied to its radical. Learning to identify the radicals also helps greatly in looking up unfamiliar words, as Chinese dictionaries are traditionally arranged first by radical, then by number of strokes.

</p><p>When you buy them a dictionary, get a beginner's dictionary so that they can have a larger font, usage examples and Pinyin pronunciation, all of which are sometimes missing in comprehensive dictionaries. A good choice that provides many example sentences and phrases would be The Starter Oxford Chinese Dictionary (sorry, Simplified version only). Get them a second dictionary later on if they can't find every word they need. For several reasons, I like Chinese Characters: A Genealogy and Dictionary. You can try out the online version of it at Zhongwen.com to see how it's organized. This is also the only dictionary that you can use by looking up any part of a character, not just the radical (which can sometimes be hard to identify).

</p><p>Many characters are comprised of radical-phonetic pairings, where the non-radical part hints at the sound of the word. They'll notice many more of these related character components at the intermediate level. However, given the ~4,000-year development of the written language, these links can often be tenuous. Thinking up elaborate stories trying to tie all the pieces of the character together can be quite useful. For instance, with the character for wrong () I remember it by thinking, "It would be wrong to bet money that sun sets underground." A little convoluted, but it was enough to jog my memory ever since. Useful as this strategy can be, it's just not always possible and you'll have to learn many words by rote memorization.

</p><p>For this I recommend writing. A lot! Have your kids say the words aloud and think of the meaning as they write. After enough repetitions, hopefully it will become part of their "motor memory" and once started they will be able to finish a character almost by reflex. They'll need this level of ingrained familiarity if they hope to retain the knowledge for long.

</p><p>It's essential then to review regularly and for them to brush up on what they forgot. Flashcards can be used as others suggested, but I'd recommend using a "3-sided" flashcard that shows the English translation, the character and the pronunciation all separately. You can do this by writing along the top and bottom of one side of the card and holding them so you don't see both at once. This way they won't depend on the Romanized pinyin to pronounce characters. To optimize learning, reorganize the cards based on how well they're known. This way time won't be wasted needlessly reviewing stuff that's already learned.

</p><p>To help with this optimization, some people use computer programs to model their memory decay, bringing up the character flashcard only when it's likely to be on the verge of being forg</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Characters are a bitch , no way around it .
Your kids will have to dedicate a large chunk of their time to learning reading and writing in Chinese .
After that it 's a continuous chore to retain that knowledge , especially in writing .
After several years study , it can seem like you 're set to the Sisyphean task of building a mountain out of sand--focus on building up the peak with new knowledge and other memories decay .
That said , there are a billion plus living examples it can be done , and there are things that can certainly help .
Just do n't think it will be easy .
With Chinese it 's kind of hard to dive into new reading material .
You either know a character already , or have no clue what it means or even how to pronounce it .
That , and every character being unique , means reading/writing will be the limiting factor in your kids ' language study and the most time-consuming to remedy .
Below are some tips to break down the task .
First thing is to learn the radicals .
There 's a limited number of them , and at least one in every character .
Learn how to draw them because they 're used over and over again .
Learn their meanings too , because a character 's meaning is usually at least loosely tied to its radical .
Learning to identify the radicals also helps greatly in looking up unfamiliar words , as Chinese dictionaries are traditionally arranged first by radical , then by number of strokes .
When you buy them a dictionary , get a beginner 's dictionary so that they can have a larger font , usage examples and Pinyin pronunciation , all of which are sometimes missing in comprehensive dictionaries .
A good choice that provides many example sentences and phrases would be The Starter Oxford Chinese Dictionary ( sorry , Simplified version only ) .
Get them a second dictionary later on if they ca n't find every word they need .
For several reasons , I like Chinese Characters : A Genealogy and Dictionary .
You can try out the online version of it at Zhongwen.com to see how it 's organized .
This is also the only dictionary that you can use by looking up any part of a character , not just the radical ( which can sometimes be hard to identify ) .
Many characters are comprised of radical-phonetic pairings , where the non-radical part hints at the sound of the word .
They 'll notice many more of these related character components at the intermediate level .
However , given the ~ 4,000-year development of the written language , these links can often be tenuous .
Thinking up elaborate stories trying to tie all the pieces of the character together can be quite useful .
For instance , with the character for wrong ( ) I remember it by thinking , " It would be wrong to bet money that sun sets underground .
" A little convoluted , but it was enough to jog my memory ever since .
Useful as this strategy can be , it 's just not always possible and you 'll have to learn many words by rote memorization .
For this I recommend writing .
A lot !
Have your kids say the words aloud and think of the meaning as they write .
After enough repetitions , hopefully it will become part of their " motor memory " and once started they will be able to finish a character almost by reflex .
They 'll need this level of ingrained familiarity if they hope to retain the knowledge for long .
It 's essential then to review regularly and for them to brush up on what they forgot .
Flashcards can be used as others suggested , but I 'd recommend using a " 3-sided " flashcard that shows the English translation , the character and the pronunciation all separately .
You can do this by writing along the top and bottom of one side of the card and holding them so you do n't see both at once .
This way they wo n't depend on the Romanized pinyin to pronounce characters .
To optimize learning , reorganize the cards based on how well they 're known .
This way time wo n't be wasted needlessly reviewing stuff that 's already learned .
To help with this optimization , some people use computer programs to model their memory decay , bringing up the character flashcard only when it 's likely to be on the verge of being forg</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Characters are a bitch, no way around it.
Your kids will have to dedicate a large chunk of their time to learning reading and writing in Chinese.
After that it's a continuous chore to retain that knowledge, especially in writing.
After several years study, it can seem like you're set to the Sisyphean task of building a mountain out of sand--focus on building up the peak with new knowledge and other memories decay.
That said, there are a billion plus living examples it can be done, and there are things that can certainly help.
Just don't think it will be easy.
With Chinese it's kind of hard to dive into new reading material.
You either know a character already, or have no clue what it means or even how to pronounce it.
That, and every character being unique, means reading/writing will be the limiting factor in your kids' language study and the most time-consuming to remedy.
Below are some tips to break down the task.
First thing is to learn the radicals.
There's a limited number of them, and at least one in every character.
Learn how to draw them because they're used over and over again.
Learn their meanings too, because a character's meaning is usually at least loosely tied to its radical.
Learning to identify the radicals also helps greatly in looking up unfamiliar words, as Chinese dictionaries are traditionally arranged first by radical, then by number of strokes.
When you buy them a dictionary, get a beginner's dictionary so that they can have a larger font, usage examples and Pinyin pronunciation, all of which are sometimes missing in comprehensive dictionaries.
A good choice that provides many example sentences and phrases would be The Starter Oxford Chinese Dictionary (sorry, Simplified version only).
Get them a second dictionary later on if they can't find every word they need.
For several reasons, I like Chinese Characters: A Genealogy and Dictionary.
You can try out the online version of it at Zhongwen.com to see how it's organized.
This is also the only dictionary that you can use by looking up any part of a character, not just the radical (which can sometimes be hard to identify).
Many characters are comprised of radical-phonetic pairings, where the non-radical part hints at the sound of the word.
They'll notice many more of these related character components at the intermediate level.
However, given the ~4,000-year development of the written language, these links can often be tenuous.
Thinking up elaborate stories trying to tie all the pieces of the character together can be quite useful.
For instance, with the character for wrong () I remember it by thinking, "It would be wrong to bet money that sun sets underground.
" A little convoluted, but it was enough to jog my memory ever since.
Useful as this strategy can be, it's just not always possible and you'll have to learn many words by rote memorization.
For this I recommend writing.
A lot!
Have your kids say the words aloud and think of the meaning as they write.
After enough repetitions, hopefully it will become part of their "motor memory" and once started they will be able to finish a character almost by reflex.
They'll need this level of ingrained familiarity if they hope to retain the knowledge for long.
It's essential then to review regularly and for them to brush up on what they forgot.
Flashcards can be used as others suggested, but I'd recommend using a "3-sided" flashcard that shows the English translation, the character and the pronunciation all separately.
You can do this by writing along the top and bottom of one side of the card and holding them so you don't see both at once.
This way they won't depend on the Romanized pinyin to pronounce characters.
To optimize learning, reorganize the cards based on how well they're known.
This way time won't be wasted needlessly reviewing stuff that's already learned.
To help with this optimization, some people use computer programs to model their memory decay, bringing up the character flashcard only when it's likely to be on the verge of being forg</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31562708</id>
	<title>FYI</title>
	<author>xandroid</author>
	<datestamp>1269184380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>"the 10,000 or so chinese characters"</p></div></blockquote><p>There are quite a few more Chinese characters than that. The Kangxi dictionary, published in the early 18th century, lists 47 thousand (albeit many of them are not used commonly any more).</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" the 10,000 or so chinese characters " There are quite a few more Chinese characters than that .
The Kangxi dictionary , published in the early 18th century , lists 47 thousand ( albeit many of them are not used commonly any more ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"the 10,000 or so chinese characters"There are quite a few more Chinese characters than that.
The Kangxi dictionary, published in the early 18th century, lists 47 thousand (albeit many of them are not used commonly any more).
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552502</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551796</id>
	<title>Not for English, either</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269077160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>I taught English to kids in Africa, and found very few natural connections between English sounds and letters. One of the few techniques that worked decently was to pick some words that could be formed into the letter. For example, the letter "k" can be drawn as a key. It's not great, but it makes a connection that otherwise wouldn't exist. If your kids are picking up words well enough, this might be useful. Good luck.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I taught English to kids in Africa , and found very few natural connections between English sounds and letters .
One of the few techniques that worked decently was to pick some words that could be formed into the letter .
For example , the letter " k " can be drawn as a key .
It 's not great , but it makes a connection that otherwise would n't exist .
If your kids are picking up words well enough , this might be useful .
Good luck .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I taught English to kids in Africa, and found very few natural connections between English sounds and letters.
One of the few techniques that worked decently was to pick some words that could be formed into the letter.
For example, the letter "k" can be drawn as a key.
It's not great, but it makes a connection that otherwise wouldn't exist.
If your kids are picking up words well enough, this might be useful.
Good luck.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552036</id>
	<title>Byki flashcards</title>
	<author>haystor</author>
	<datestamp>1269079140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I started using the express version for free.  Then went ahead and bought the deluxe version which included 150 lists.  The vocabulary words in it already have sounds attached.  It's some pretty slick software and they went out of their way to make it user friendly for managing/editing cards and lists of cards.  For instance, I can make a list then do all the sounds at once if I want.  Press record, speak my word/phrase, press record again to stop, check it with playback, press next for the next card in the list.</p><p>It has a variety of  modes, from simply viewing the cards to self-checking recognition to actually typing the answer.  I'm currently doing Japanese with these cards and I was very impressed with how well it handles the input methods.  I can type in English one second and when it asks for a response in Japanese it switches to a Japanese input method automatically.</p><p>It also has a couple activities that you might find useful.  I like the multiple choice activity.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I started using the express version for free .
Then went ahead and bought the deluxe version which included 150 lists .
The vocabulary words in it already have sounds attached .
It 's some pretty slick software and they went out of their way to make it user friendly for managing/editing cards and lists of cards .
For instance , I can make a list then do all the sounds at once if I want .
Press record , speak my word/phrase , press record again to stop , check it with playback , press next for the next card in the list.It has a variety of modes , from simply viewing the cards to self-checking recognition to actually typing the answer .
I 'm currently doing Japanese with these cards and I was very impressed with how well it handles the input methods .
I can type in English one second and when it asks for a response in Japanese it switches to a Japanese input method automatically.It also has a couple activities that you might find useful .
I like the multiple choice activity .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I started using the express version for free.
Then went ahead and bought the deluxe version which included 150 lists.
The vocabulary words in it already have sounds attached.
It's some pretty slick software and they went out of their way to make it user friendly for managing/editing cards and lists of cards.
For instance, I can make a list then do all the sounds at once if I want.
Press record, speak my word/phrase, press record again to stop, check it with playback, press next for the next card in the list.It has a variety of  modes, from simply viewing the cards to self-checking recognition to actually typing the answer.
I'm currently doing Japanese with these cards and I was very impressed with how well it handles the input methods.
I can type in English one second and when it asks for a response in Japanese it switches to a Japanese input method automatically.It also has a couple activities that you might find useful.
I like the multiple choice activity.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31554266</id>
	<title>Relationship between sound/shape?</title>
	<author>klui</author>
	<datestamp>1269096240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I wonder what is the relationship between what "A" looks like and its sound?</p><p>The way to learn Chinese characters is through repetitive writing in addition to learning what each radical means. Each character learned/day needs to be written at least 100 times. There is also a standard way to write most characters, top-down then left-right. Prepare for sore hands and fingers. At least people outside China would probably write the characters in Latin order on a page--left-to-right then top down instead of top down, right-to-left. Writing in Latin order prevents the part of your hand that rests on the paper from getting ink/graphite smeared all over it.</p><p>The use of radicals probably don't apply if one were to use it to learn simplified characters.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I wonder what is the relationship between what " A " looks like and its sound ? The way to learn Chinese characters is through repetitive writing in addition to learning what each radical means .
Each character learned/day needs to be written at least 100 times .
There is also a standard way to write most characters , top-down then left-right .
Prepare for sore hands and fingers .
At least people outside China would probably write the characters in Latin order on a page--left-to-right then top down instead of top down , right-to-left .
Writing in Latin order prevents the part of your hand that rests on the paper from getting ink/graphite smeared all over it.The use of radicals probably do n't apply if one were to use it to learn simplified characters .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I wonder what is the relationship between what "A" looks like and its sound?The way to learn Chinese characters is through repetitive writing in addition to learning what each radical means.
Each character learned/day needs to be written at least 100 times.
There is also a standard way to write most characters, top-down then left-right.
Prepare for sore hands and fingers.
At least people outside China would probably write the characters in Latin order on a page--left-to-right then top down instead of top down, right-to-left.
Writing in Latin order prevents the part of your hand that rests on the paper from getting ink/graphite smeared all over it.The use of radicals probably don't apply if one were to use it to learn simplified characters.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552536</id>
	<title>about 1/3 phonetic</title>
	<author>peter303</author>
	<datestamp>1269082860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The non-radical part is often pronounced the same in multiple characters it appears, particularly for newer words or characters. This happened in older times, too.  But pronunciations diverged with time, particularly after the  Mongols mangled the northern dialect. I can often guess the pronunciation of character I havent seen.
<br>
Unfortunately, I dont know if there a way to teach this.  You just observe the sound patterns as you learn characters.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The non-radical part is often pronounced the same in multiple characters it appears , particularly for newer words or characters .
This happened in older times , too .
But pronunciations diverged with time , particularly after the Mongols mangled the northern dialect .
I can often guess the pronunciation of character I havent seen .
Unfortunately , I dont know if there a way to teach this .
You just observe the sound patterns as you learn characters .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The non-radical part is often pronounced the same in multiple characters it appears, particularly for newer words or characters.
This happened in older times, too.
But pronunciations diverged with time, particularly after the  Mongols mangled the northern dialect.
I can often guess the pronunciation of character I havent seen.
Unfortunately, I dont know if there a way to teach this.
You just observe the sound patterns as you learn characters.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551932</id>
	<title>Re:Flashcards</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269078240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I thought <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Reading-Writing-Chinese-Traditional-Character/dp/0804832064/ref=sr\_1\_7?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1269117679&amp;sr=8-7" title="amazon.com" rel="nofollow">this</a> [amazon.com] was a good book for Chinese characters.  I agree, flashcards are good as well (I like the paper type, if you can do it away from a computer I think you're more likely to do it)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I thought this [ amazon.com ] was a good book for Chinese characters .
I agree , flashcards are good as well ( I like the paper type , if you can do it away from a computer I think you 're more likely to do it )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I thought this [amazon.com] was a good book for Chinese characters.
I agree, flashcards are good as well (I like the paper type, if you can do it away from a computer I think you're more likely to do it)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551758</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31554648</id>
	<title>SuperMemo!!!</title>
	<author>5pp000</author>
	<datestamp>1269100320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm amazed no one has mentioned <a href="http://www.supermemo.com/" title="supermemo.com">SuperMemo</a> [supermemo.com].  It's based on an actual scientific theory of how to optimize the value of memorization effort.  There's a <a href="http://www.super-memo.com/chinese1000.html" title="super-memo.com">Chinese character library</a> [super-memo.com] for it already.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm amazed no one has mentioned SuperMemo [ supermemo.com ] .
It 's based on an actual scientific theory of how to optimize the value of memorization effort .
There 's a Chinese character library [ super-memo.com ] for it already .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm amazed no one has mentioned SuperMemo [supermemo.com].
It's based on an actual scientific theory of how to optimize the value of memorization effort.
There's a Chinese character library [super-memo.com] for it already.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552102</id>
	<title>smart.fm's lists are good</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269079500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>For Japanese smart.fm's "Japanese Core 2000" series really helped me. http://smart.fm/goals/19053</p><p>They seem to have some lessons for Chinese characters too, so it's worth having a look.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>For Japanese smart.fm 's " Japanese Core 2000 " series really helped me .
http : //smart.fm/goals/19053They seem to have some lessons for Chinese characters too , so it 's worth having a look .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For Japanese smart.fm's "Japanese Core 2000" series really helped me.
http://smart.fm/goals/19053They seem to have some lessons for Chinese characters too, so it's worth having a look.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31553930</id>
	<title>Re:A proven technique</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269093300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Date a native speaker that doesn't speak your native tongue.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Date a native speaker that does n't speak your native tongue .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Date a native speaker that doesn't speak your native tongue.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551770</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31556300</id>
	<title>Train, train, train</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269170100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Have them write the characters. Seriously. That's what worked (and still works) for me. I learned japanese and chinese, well enough to have become a translator.</p><p>If you write them following the stroke order, your hand and your brain will remember them.</p><p>It also helps to dissect them, as explained in "remembering Kanji" (that book is for japanese, though, so there are slight differences, but is still an interesting reading)</p><p>Learn to recognize the radicals, and you will be well off.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Have them write the characters .
Seriously. That 's what worked ( and still works ) for me .
I learned japanese and chinese , well enough to have become a translator.If you write them following the stroke order , your hand and your brain will remember them.It also helps to dissect them , as explained in " remembering Kanji " ( that book is for japanese , though , so there are slight differences , but is still an interesting reading ) Learn to recognize the radicals , and you will be well off .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Have them write the characters.
Seriously. That's what worked (and still works) for me.
I learned japanese and chinese, well enough to have become a translator.If you write them following the stroke order, your hand and your brain will remember them.It also helps to dissect them, as explained in "remembering Kanji" (that book is for japanese, though, so there are slight differences, but is still an interesting reading)Learn to recognize the radicals, and you will be well off.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31553638</id>
	<title>Skritter</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269090840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Chinese is an easy language once you get the characters sorted. Check out Skritter.com - been using it for a while now and am making masses of progress with it. Allows you to write words/characters, tells you if they're correct and reminds you if you get them wrong etc. Get a pen tablet too. Helps!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Chinese is an easy language once you get the characters sorted .
Check out Skritter.com - been using it for a while now and am making masses of progress with it .
Allows you to write words/characters , tells you if they 're correct and reminds you if you get them wrong etc .
Get a pen tablet too .
Helps !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Chinese is an easy language once you get the characters sorted.
Check out Skritter.com - been using it for a while now and am making masses of progress with it.
Allows you to write words/characters, tells you if they're correct and reminds you if you get them wrong etc.
Get a pen tablet too.
Helps!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31556788</id>
	<title>Re:Flashcards</title>
	<author>nobodie</author>
	<datestamp>1269178260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Flashcards only work for character recognition, which generally only has value in the short term. The real difficulty for western learners is writing and while you foolishly think the grammar is "simple" you don't have even the ghost of a clue about the syntax (word order) which is where the meaning on the sentence level is hidden. Any language is a coherent whole that interacts between the parts, there is no one single simple trick that will solve the learning riddle. The sad/ interesting thing is that Chinese people are not especially good at teaching their own language. My son, (7 years old and going to a Chinese elementary school here in mainland China) is finding it rather easy to master through simple acquisition desire: he wants it, he uses it and so he master's it. Embarrassingly for the other students and parents in the school he is #3 in the class. (Oh neither parent is anywhere close to fluent in Chinese and we use him when we really need help) If your son has the opportunity to use his new language skills daily, for accomplishing things that he wants then he might be able to build good skills. But without that no matter the method he will lose whatever he gains fairly quickly. If his teacher can arrange for a time in the class where students must interact and share information in the class through both speaking/ listening and writing/reading then this approach can help, but believe me this field (of 2nd or foreign language learning) is full of ideas that are not yet ready to be successful methods. How do I know? It's my job.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Flashcards only work for character recognition , which generally only has value in the short term .
The real difficulty for western learners is writing and while you foolishly think the grammar is " simple " you do n't have even the ghost of a clue about the syntax ( word order ) which is where the meaning on the sentence level is hidden .
Any language is a coherent whole that interacts between the parts , there is no one single simple trick that will solve the learning riddle .
The sad/ interesting thing is that Chinese people are not especially good at teaching their own language .
My son , ( 7 years old and going to a Chinese elementary school here in mainland China ) is finding it rather easy to master through simple acquisition desire : he wants it , he uses it and so he master 's it .
Embarrassingly for the other students and parents in the school he is # 3 in the class .
( Oh neither parent is anywhere close to fluent in Chinese and we use him when we really need help ) If your son has the opportunity to use his new language skills daily , for accomplishing things that he wants then he might be able to build good skills .
But without that no matter the method he will lose whatever he gains fairly quickly .
If his teacher can arrange for a time in the class where students must interact and share information in the class through both speaking/ listening and writing/reading then this approach can help , but believe me this field ( of 2nd or foreign language learning ) is full of ideas that are not yet ready to be successful methods .
How do I know ?
It 's my job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Flashcards only work for character recognition, which generally only has value in the short term.
The real difficulty for western learners is writing and while you foolishly think the grammar is "simple" you don't have even the ghost of a clue about the syntax (word order) which is where the meaning on the sentence level is hidden.
Any language is a coherent whole that interacts between the parts, there is no one single simple trick that will solve the learning riddle.
The sad/ interesting thing is that Chinese people are not especially good at teaching their own language.
My son, (7 years old and going to a Chinese elementary school here in mainland China) is finding it rather easy to master through simple acquisition desire: he wants it, he uses it and so he master's it.
Embarrassingly for the other students and parents in the school he is #3 in the class.
(Oh neither parent is anywhere close to fluent in Chinese and we use him when we really need help) If your son has the opportunity to use his new language skills daily, for accomplishing things that he wants then he might be able to build good skills.
But without that no matter the method he will lose whatever he gains fairly quickly.
If his teacher can arrange for a time in the class where students must interact and share information in the class through both speaking/ listening and writing/reading then this approach can help, but believe me this field (of 2nd or foreign language learning) is full of ideas that are not yet ready to be successful methods.
How do I know?
It's my job.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551758</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552184</id>
	<title>Flash cards</title>
	<author>il dus</author>
	<datestamp>1269080160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The low-tech kind.  When learning Russian I was able to memorize a new wordlist (40-50 words) in 10-20 minutes after having written them all out on flash cards.  The writing itself was a major part of the learning process.  As for retention once learned, a lot of practice is really the only way.  Reading out loud is actually fairly helpful, and conversation is the very best.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The low-tech kind .
When learning Russian I was able to memorize a new wordlist ( 40-50 words ) in 10-20 minutes after having written them all out on flash cards .
The writing itself was a major part of the learning process .
As for retention once learned , a lot of practice is really the only way .
Reading out loud is actually fairly helpful , and conversation is the very best .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The low-tech kind.
When learning Russian I was able to memorize a new wordlist (40-50 words) in 10-20 minutes after having written them all out on flash cards.
The writing itself was a major part of the learning process.
As for retention once learned, a lot of practice is really the only way.
Reading out loud is actually fairly helpful, and conversation is the very best.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551844</id>
	<title>Once you learn some radicals...</title>
	<author>Dan Morenus</author>
	<datestamp>1269077580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>you'll find that some though not all Chinese words are meaning-sound combinations: for instance, many words that are pronounced "zhong" have one radical that is also pronounced "zhong" by itself though perhaps in a different tone.
<p>
My wife and I have had success with making our own flashcards, each with a different character or compound word.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>you 'll find that some though not all Chinese words are meaning-sound combinations : for instance , many words that are pronounced " zhong " have one radical that is also pronounced " zhong " by itself though perhaps in a different tone .
My wife and I have had success with making our own flashcards , each with a different character or compound word .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>you'll find that some though not all Chinese words are meaning-sound combinations: for instance, many words that are pronounced "zhong" have one radical that is also pronounced "zhong" by itself though perhaps in a different tone.
My wife and I have had success with making our own flashcards, each with a different character or compound word.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31555832</id>
	<title>There's a better book for Chinese</title>
	<author>Murmel84</author>
	<datestamp>1269162240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I actually started learning the Hanzi using "Learning Chinese Characters" (http://www.amazon.com/Tuttle-Learning-Chinese-Characters-Revolutionary/dp/080483816X/) and bought Heisig's book to compare them, but even if they are based on the same principles, the first one is way better.<br> <br>
Matthews &amp; Matthews book not only teaches you the meaning, but also includes mnemonics for the pronounciation and the tone of each character. Maybe it's not that important for Japanese, but Chinese characters give you a lot of clues about their pronounciation using phonetical components, so learning their pronounciation at the same time actually saves you a lot of time. Why memorize "man + lord" = "to live somewhere" if you actually know that "lord" and "live" are both pronounced "zhu" and thus can easily memorize that "live" is something that has to do with "men" and is pronounced like "lord"?<br> <br>
Also, the book comes with drawings to help you remember the basic building blocks AND has awesome crosslinks between the entries everywhere and a very good index that enable you to find what you are looking for so much faster. Of course, it only teaches you the first 800 ones (+ their components) while Heisig already takes on 1500 in his first and 1500 in his second book, but I hope there will be another Matthews &amp; Matthews book for HSK B soon.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I actually started learning the Hanzi using " Learning Chinese Characters " ( http : //www.amazon.com/Tuttle-Learning-Chinese-Characters-Revolutionary/dp/080483816X/ ) and bought Heisig 's book to compare them , but even if they are based on the same principles , the first one is way better .
Matthews &amp; Matthews book not only teaches you the meaning , but also includes mnemonics for the pronounciation and the tone of each character .
Maybe it 's not that important for Japanese , but Chinese characters give you a lot of clues about their pronounciation using phonetical components , so learning their pronounciation at the same time actually saves you a lot of time .
Why memorize " man + lord " = " to live somewhere " if you actually know that " lord " and " live " are both pronounced " zhu " and thus can easily memorize that " live " is something that has to do with " men " and is pronounced like " lord " ?
Also , the book comes with drawings to help you remember the basic building blocks AND has awesome crosslinks between the entries everywhere and a very good index that enable you to find what you are looking for so much faster .
Of course , it only teaches you the first 800 ones ( + their components ) while Heisig already takes on 1500 in his first and 1500 in his second book , but I hope there will be another Matthews &amp; Matthews book for HSK B soon .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I actually started learning the Hanzi using "Learning Chinese Characters" (http://www.amazon.com/Tuttle-Learning-Chinese-Characters-Revolutionary/dp/080483816X/) and bought Heisig's book to compare them, but even if they are based on the same principles, the first one is way better.
Matthews &amp; Matthews book not only teaches you the meaning, but also includes mnemonics for the pronounciation and the tone of each character.
Maybe it's not that important for Japanese, but Chinese characters give you a lot of clues about their pronounciation using phonetical components, so learning their pronounciation at the same time actually saves you a lot of time.
Why memorize "man + lord" = "to live somewhere" if you actually know that "lord" and "live" are both pronounced "zhu" and thus can easily memorize that "live" is something that has to do with "men" and is pronounced like "lord"?
Also, the book comes with drawings to help you remember the basic building blocks AND has awesome crosslinks between the entries everywhere and a very good index that enable you to find what you are looking for so much faster.
Of course, it only teaches you the first 800 ones (+ their components) while Heisig already takes on 1500 in his first and 1500 in his second book, but I hope there will be another Matthews &amp; Matthews book for HSK B soon.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552066</parent>
</comment>
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	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552292
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	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551792
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552740
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31555308
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<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_20_1933241.10</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31555838
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<conversation>
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	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551778
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31554850
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31556228
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31563816
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<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_03_20_1933241.17</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31551950
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31556570
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31556118
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552320
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31576816
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552864
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31554936
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_20_1933241.31552832
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