<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_03_18_2124233</id>
	<title>High-Tech Research Moving From US To China</title>
	<author>timothy</author>
	<datestamp>1268906400000</datestamp>
	<htmltext><a href="http://hughpickens.com/" rel="nofollow">Hugh Pickens</a> writes <i>"The NY Times reports that American companies like Applied Materials are <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/18/business/global/18research.html">moving their research facilities and engineers to China</a> as the country develops a high-tech economy that increasingly competes directly with the United States. Applied Materials set up its latest solar research labs in China after estimating that China would be producing two-thirds of the world's solar panels by the end of this year and their chief technology officer, Mark R. Pinto, is the first CTO of a major American tech company to move to China. 'We're obviously not giving up on the US,' says Pinto. 'China needs more electricity. It's as simple as that.' Western companies are also attracted to China's huge reservoirs of cheap, highly skilled engineers and the subsidies offered by many Chinese cities and regions, particularly for green energy companies. <a href="http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/appliedmaterials/permalink/?ndmViewId=news\_view&amp;newsId=20091026005469&amp;newsLang=en">Applied Materials decided to build their new $250 million research facility in Xi'an</a> after the city government sold them a 75-year land lease at a deep discount and is reimbursing the company for roughly a quarter of the lab complex's operating costs for five years."</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hugh Pickens writes " The NY Times reports that American companies like Applied Materials are moving their research facilities and engineers to China as the country develops a high-tech economy that increasingly competes directly with the United States .
Applied Materials set up its latest solar research labs in China after estimating that China would be producing two-thirds of the world 's solar panels by the end of this year and their chief technology officer , Mark R. Pinto , is the first CTO of a major American tech company to move to China .
'We 're obviously not giving up on the US, ' says Pinto .
'China needs more electricity .
It 's as simple as that .
' Western companies are also attracted to China 's huge reservoirs of cheap , highly skilled engineers and the subsidies offered by many Chinese cities and regions , particularly for green energy companies .
Applied Materials decided to build their new $ 250 million research facility in Xi'an after the city government sold them a 75-year land lease at a deep discount and is reimbursing the company for roughly a quarter of the lab complex 's operating costs for five years .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hugh Pickens writes "The NY Times reports that American companies like Applied Materials are moving their research facilities and engineers to China as the country develops a high-tech economy that increasingly competes directly with the United States.
Applied Materials set up its latest solar research labs in China after estimating that China would be producing two-thirds of the world's solar panels by the end of this year and their chief technology officer, Mark R. Pinto, is the first CTO of a major American tech company to move to China.
'We're obviously not giving up on the US,' says Pinto.
'China needs more electricity.
It's as simple as that.
' Western companies are also attracted to China's huge reservoirs of cheap, highly skilled engineers and the subsidies offered by many Chinese cities and regions, particularly for green energy companies.
Applied Materials decided to build their new $250 million research facility in Xi'an after the city government sold them a 75-year land lease at a deep discount and is reimbursing the company for roughly a quarter of the lab complex's operating costs for five years.
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530016</id>
	<title>Hey Guys</title>
	<author>Alanonfire</author>
	<datestamp>1268911500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>Idiot in Suit #1 - "No one has any money in the US to buy our stuff! What should we do?"
<br> <br>
Idiot in Suit #2 - "Uhh, lets move our production to China cuz its cheaper and get rid of all our American employees further hurting the crumby state of the economy instead of keeping them and keeping money circulating in our country."
<br> <br>
Idiot in Suit #1 - "Dude,you're such a genius."</htmltext>
<tokenext>Idiot in Suit # 1 - " No one has any money in the US to buy our stuff !
What should we do ?
" Idiot in Suit # 2 - " Uhh , lets move our production to China cuz its cheaper and get rid of all our American employees further hurting the crumby state of the economy instead of keeping them and keeping money circulating in our country .
" Idiot in Suit # 1 - " Dude,you 're such a genius .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Idiot in Suit #1 - "No one has any money in the US to buy our stuff!
What should we do?
"
 
Idiot in Suit #2 - "Uhh, lets move our production to China cuz its cheaper and get rid of all our American employees further hurting the crumby state of the economy instead of keeping them and keeping money circulating in our country.
"
 
Idiot in Suit #1 - "Dude,you're such a genius.
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530936</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>anagama</author>
	<datestamp>1268917020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>They would "owe" us if we charged, but idiotically, we don't.  I met a Belgian woman who about freaked out when I said I thought we should let Europe totally defend itself and remove our bases.  I suppose if enough people felt like her, and were willing to pay, fine leave them there.  But otherwise, it's just stupid:
<br>.<blockquote><div><p>Indeed, how do conservatives justify borrowing hundreds of billions yearly from Europe, Japan and the Gulf states &mdash; to defend Europe, Japan and the Arab Gulf states? Is it not absurd to borrow hundreds of billion annually from China &mdash; to defend Asia from China? Is it not a symptom of senility to borrow from all over the world in order to defend that world?</p></div></blockquote><p>
And who is this quote from?  Right-wing freak Pat Buchanan.  The stupidity is so freaking obvious, its only the Democratic and Republican PARTY loyalists who can't see it.  Unfortunately, they make up 99.99\% of government.<br> <br>
citation: <a href="http://buchanan.org/blog/liquidating-the-empire-3646" title="buchanan.org">http://buchanan.org/blog/liquidating-the-empire-3646</a> [buchanan.org]</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>They would " owe " us if we charged , but idiotically , we do n't .
I met a Belgian woman who about freaked out when I said I thought we should let Europe totally defend itself and remove our bases .
I suppose if enough people felt like her , and were willing to pay , fine leave them there .
But otherwise , it 's just stupid : .Indeed , how do conservatives justify borrowing hundreds of billions yearly from Europe , Japan and the Gulf states    to defend Europe , Japan and the Arab Gulf states ?
Is it not absurd to borrow hundreds of billion annually from China    to defend Asia from China ?
Is it not a symptom of senility to borrow from all over the world in order to defend that world ?
And who is this quote from ?
Right-wing freak Pat Buchanan .
The stupidity is so freaking obvious , its only the Democratic and Republican PARTY loyalists who ca n't see it .
Unfortunately , they make up 99.99 \ % of government .
citation : http : //buchanan.org/blog/liquidating-the-empire-3646 [ buchanan.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They would "owe" us if we charged, but idiotically, we don't.
I met a Belgian woman who about freaked out when I said I thought we should let Europe totally defend itself and remove our bases.
I suppose if enough people felt like her, and were willing to pay, fine leave them there.
But otherwise, it's just stupid:
.Indeed, how do conservatives justify borrowing hundreds of billions yearly from Europe, Japan and the Gulf states — to defend Europe, Japan and the Arab Gulf states?
Is it not absurd to borrow hundreds of billion annually from China — to defend Asia from China?
Is it not a symptom of senility to borrow from all over the world in order to defend that world?
And who is this quote from?
Right-wing freak Pat Buchanan.
The stupidity is so freaking obvious, its only the Democratic and Republican PARTY loyalists who can't see it.
Unfortunately, they make up 99.99\% of government.
citation: http://buchanan.org/blog/liquidating-the-empire-3646 [buchanan.org]
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530192</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31532966</id>
	<title>Re:Western and Eastern educations are not equivale</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268934180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>and what is advanced r&amp;d? is it more advanced than r&amp;d itself? It shows the crap and exaggeration. Its so very easy to write shit when you have not seen the type of r&amp;d done in India!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>and what is advanced r&amp;d ?
is it more advanced than r&amp;d itself ?
It shows the crap and exaggeration .
Its so very easy to write shit when you have not seen the type of r&amp;d done in India !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>and what is advanced r&amp;d?
is it more advanced than r&amp;d itself?
It shows the crap and exaggeration.
Its so very easy to write shit when you have not seen the type of r&amp;d done in India!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31533918</id>
	<title>Re:Good news if it results in less regulation</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268992860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What you don't factor into your Ayn Randian view of the market is that your business model requires you to sell to those same overpaid, benefit-laden US (or Western European) employees.  In short, you want to sell a product to individuals who have superior incomes but you don't think it is fair for you to pay those individuals what they demand.  You think that it is acceptable to build a factory that pollutes and thus levies costs on others rather than yourself; it is unfair in your world that you might have to actually pay for your environmental impact.   Wages and benefits in the US are a function of US worker productivity and relative scarcity of labor vs capital.  The wages are result of long fought negotiation and social contract between labor and business.  Through the bypassing of that process, you are more like the child who only knows what he or she wants without knowing the price he or she has to pay.  And btw, I also agree that an engineering manager with a simplistic view of the marketplace should be a position that is easily outsourced to China or India as well.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What you do n't factor into your Ayn Randian view of the market is that your business model requires you to sell to those same overpaid , benefit-laden US ( or Western European ) employees .
In short , you want to sell a product to individuals who have superior incomes but you do n't think it is fair for you to pay those individuals what they demand .
You think that it is acceptable to build a factory that pollutes and thus levies costs on others rather than yourself ; it is unfair in your world that you might have to actually pay for your environmental impact .
Wages and benefits in the US are a function of US worker productivity and relative scarcity of labor vs capital .
The wages are result of long fought negotiation and social contract between labor and business .
Through the bypassing of that process , you are more like the child who only knows what he or she wants without knowing the price he or she has to pay .
And btw , I also agree that an engineering manager with a simplistic view of the marketplace should be a position that is easily outsourced to China or India as well .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What you don't factor into your Ayn Randian view of the market is that your business model requires you to sell to those same overpaid, benefit-laden US (or Western European) employees.
In short, you want to sell a product to individuals who have superior incomes but you don't think it is fair for you to pay those individuals what they demand.
You think that it is acceptable to build a factory that pollutes and thus levies costs on others rather than yourself; it is unfair in your world that you might have to actually pay for your environmental impact.
Wages and benefits in the US are a function of US worker productivity and relative scarcity of labor vs capital.
The wages are result of long fought negotiation and social contract between labor and business.
Through the bypassing of that process, you are more like the child who only knows what he or she wants without knowing the price he or she has to pay.
And btw, I also agree that an engineering manager with a simplistic view of the marketplace should be a position that is easily outsourced to China or India as well.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530020</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31555396</id>
	<title>Re:Western and Eastern educations are not equivale</title>
	<author>dave87656</author>
	<datestamp>1269110640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's been my experience as well, with some exceptions. We had 25 really cheap indians working on finding Y2K problems (back in 1999) and they were very methodical and poring through loads of code and didn't cost much. But, we wrote a program which did the same thing, more exactly and much more quickly. The company finally let the Indians go. In the software world, it's innovation that wins and Americans are pretty good at that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's been my experience as well , with some exceptions .
We had 25 really cheap indians working on finding Y2K problems ( back in 1999 ) and they were very methodical and poring through loads of code and did n't cost much .
But , we wrote a program which did the same thing , more exactly and much more quickly .
The company finally let the Indians go .
In the software world , it 's innovation that wins and Americans are pretty good at that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's been my experience as well, with some exceptions.
We had 25 really cheap indians working on finding Y2K problems (back in 1999) and they were very methodical and poring through loads of code and didn't cost much.
But, we wrote a program which did the same thing, more exactly and much more quickly.
The company finally let the Indians go.
In the software world, it's innovation that wins and Americans are pretty good at that.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531284</id>
	<title>Re:Good job</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268919180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Transactional costs, transition costs, blah,blah, blah. The bottom line is that it is better to export(outsource) finished goods and services not raw materials (jobs). Companies, and the people who focus on the singularly narrow aspect of supply side economics like "If I can get a PhD for $60K in china and $120K in US, it makes sense to stay in the US due to transactional costs, transition costs, problems with chinese govt. etc., but if you make the numbers closer to $180K in US + lots of people bad mouthing you for hiring people on H1Bs.. well....take the whole dept. there.", are just trying to justify otherwise counter patriotic behavior that weakens this country.<br>What ever happened to our fear and loathing of the ists? You know the communists, etc? We seem to have no problem handing over our skills, jobs, technology, even lifeblood to an enemy.<br>If companies like Applied want access to that "market" so badly then fine, but I think they should lose complete access to this country, its market, and all of the privileged that come with it.</p><p>P.S. for all you armchair economists out there, my degree is in Business, I'm aware of the common micro/macro economic arguments, Adam Smith and his invisible hand etc. so spare the ideology.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Transactional costs , transition costs , blah,blah , blah .
The bottom line is that it is better to export ( outsource ) finished goods and services not raw materials ( jobs ) .
Companies , and the people who focus on the singularly narrow aspect of supply side economics like " If I can get a PhD for $ 60K in china and $ 120K in US , it makes sense to stay in the US due to transactional costs , transition costs , problems with chinese govt .
etc. , but if you make the numbers closer to $ 180K in US + lots of people bad mouthing you for hiring people on H1Bs.. well....take the whole dept .
there. " , are just trying to justify otherwise counter patriotic behavior that weakens this country.What ever happened to our fear and loathing of the ists ?
You know the communists , etc ?
We seem to have no problem handing over our skills , jobs , technology , even lifeblood to an enemy.If companies like Applied want access to that " market " so badly then fine , but I think they should lose complete access to this country , its market , and all of the privileged that come with it.P.S .
for all you armchair economists out there , my degree is in Business , I 'm aware of the common micro/macro economic arguments , Adam Smith and his invisible hand etc .
so spare the ideology .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Transactional costs, transition costs, blah,blah, blah.
The bottom line is that it is better to export(outsource) finished goods and services not raw materials (jobs).
Companies, and the people who focus on the singularly narrow aspect of supply side economics like "If I can get a PhD for $60K in china and $120K in US, it makes sense to stay in the US due to transactional costs, transition costs, problems with chinese govt.
etc., but if you make the numbers closer to $180K in US + lots of people bad mouthing you for hiring people on H1Bs.. well....take the whole dept.
there.", are just trying to justify otherwise counter patriotic behavior that weakens this country.What ever happened to our fear and loathing of the ists?
You know the communists, etc?
We seem to have no problem handing over our skills, jobs, technology, even lifeblood to an enemy.If companies like Applied want access to that "market" so badly then fine, but I think they should lose complete access to this country, its market, and all of the privileged that come with it.P.S.
for all you armchair economists out there, my degree is in Business, I'm aware of the common micro/macro economic arguments, Adam Smith and his invisible hand etc.
so spare the ideology.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529892</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530116</id>
	<title>Not giving up... my fat @</title>
	<author>Platinumrat</author>
	<datestamp>1268911980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>'We're obviously not giving up on the US,' says Pinto.
<p>
Yes they are.  This is just the s$#T they spin to the shareholders, polititions and the sheeple so the CEOs can get their big bonuses without that much flack.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>'We 're obviously not giving up on the US, ' says Pinto .
Yes they are .
This is just the s $ # T they spin to the shareholders , polititions and the sheeple so the CEOs can get their big bonuses without that much flack .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>'We're obviously not giving up on the US,' says Pinto.
Yes they are.
This is just the s$#T they spin to the shareholders, polititions and the sheeple so the CEOs can get their big bonuses without that much flack.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529808</id>
	<title>America the new 3rd World</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268910540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The decline of the US has already happened. But we're too arrogant or perhaps more ignorant on whats going on. Within the next 10 years, China will surpass the US in everything. The only thing the US still maintains a hold on is the Media/Entertainment industry. Wake up America otherwise we will go gently into that good night.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The decline of the US has already happened .
But we 're too arrogant or perhaps more ignorant on whats going on .
Within the next 10 years , China will surpass the US in everything .
The only thing the US still maintains a hold on is the Media/Entertainment industry .
Wake up America otherwise we will go gently into that good night .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The decline of the US has already happened.
But we're too arrogant or perhaps more ignorant on whats going on.
Within the next 10 years, China will surpass the US in everything.
The only thing the US still maintains a hold on is the Media/Entertainment industry.
Wake up America otherwise we will go gently into that good night.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530500</id>
	<title>Re:War</title>
	<author>modmans2ndcoming</author>
	<datestamp>1268914320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>China has waged an environmental and economic war with the US for the last 20 years.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>China has waged an environmental and economic war with the US for the last 20 years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>China has waged an environmental and economic war with the US for the last 20 years.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530010</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531894</id>
	<title>Re:Good news if it results in less regulation</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268924040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When you use politics, you are doing everything by waving a gun around like a deranged lunatic. The people who are moving to China are the only sane, rational people left in the US. They realise that here in the US anything can be taken from you by force if enough people are willing to vote for it.</p><p>I have 1/10 of my paycheck taken every two weeks because people voted it to themselves. That is an evil which must be stopped.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When you use politics , you are doing everything by waving a gun around like a deranged lunatic .
The people who are moving to China are the only sane , rational people left in the US .
They realise that here in the US anything can be taken from you by force if enough people are willing to vote for it.I have 1/10 of my paycheck taken every two weeks because people voted it to themselves .
That is an evil which must be stopped .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When you use politics, you are doing everything by waving a gun around like a deranged lunatic.
The people who are moving to China are the only sane, rational people left in the US.
They realise that here in the US anything can be taken from you by force if enough people are willing to vote for it.I have 1/10 of my paycheck taken every two weeks because people voted it to themselves.
That is an evil which must be stopped.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530184</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531664</id>
	<title>Re:Western and Eastern educations are not equivale</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268922180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>I suspect the above poster is only seeing the tip of the iceberg.  The sort of developers that people are exposed to via outsourcing are usually of very poor quality.<br>Outsourcing to a highly profit driven company works a lot like the way the USSR rocket program used it's German staff.<br>Here's how it worked.  The experienced German staff were put in a team with a few Russians that knew nothing but the basics.  After a while the Russians in the team would be competant, and then they would suddenly be posted elsewhere and there would be new people in the team that knew nothing but the basics.  After a while there was a very large pool of Russian staff that knew everything the German staff knew and it was no longer considered worthwhile to continue to feed the German staff.<br>I suspect the only outsourced developers the above poster met were the ones that he was training while being told that they were working for him.  The answer is not to look at the bottom of the pile but instead at published papers and products.  The two countries the above poster implies are full of dumb heathens of inferior race have civilian nuclear power programs twenty or thirty years ahead of what Westinghouse etc in the USA can do, and they did it with less cash.<br>He's forgetting that outsourcing is often about milking the client as much as possible while spending as little as possible and not about a successful software project.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I suspect the above poster is only seeing the tip of the iceberg .
The sort of developers that people are exposed to via outsourcing are usually of very poor quality.Outsourcing to a highly profit driven company works a lot like the way the USSR rocket program used it 's German staff.Here 's how it worked .
The experienced German staff were put in a team with a few Russians that knew nothing but the basics .
After a while the Russians in the team would be competant , and then they would suddenly be posted elsewhere and there would be new people in the team that knew nothing but the basics .
After a while there was a very large pool of Russian staff that knew everything the German staff knew and it was no longer considered worthwhile to continue to feed the German staff.I suspect the only outsourced developers the above poster met were the ones that he was training while being told that they were working for him .
The answer is not to look at the bottom of the pile but instead at published papers and products .
The two countries the above poster implies are full of dumb heathens of inferior race have civilian nuclear power programs twenty or thirty years ahead of what Westinghouse etc in the USA can do , and they did it with less cash.He 's forgetting that outsourcing is often about milking the client as much as possible while spending as little as possible and not about a successful software project .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I suspect the above poster is only seeing the tip of the iceberg.
The sort of developers that people are exposed to via outsourcing are usually of very poor quality.Outsourcing to a highly profit driven company works a lot like the way the USSR rocket program used it's German staff.Here's how it worked.
The experienced German staff were put in a team with a few Russians that knew nothing but the basics.
After a while the Russians in the team would be competant, and then they would suddenly be posted elsewhere and there would be new people in the team that knew nothing but the basics.
After a while there was a very large pool of Russian staff that knew everything the German staff knew and it was no longer considered worthwhile to continue to feed the German staff.I suspect the only outsourced developers the above poster met were the ones that he was training while being told that they were working for him.
The answer is not to look at the bottom of the pile but instead at published papers and products.
The two countries the above poster implies are full of dumb heathens of inferior race have civilian nuclear power programs twenty or thirty years ahead of what Westinghouse etc in the USA can do, and they did it with less cash.He's forgetting that outsourcing is often about milking the client as much as possible while spending as little as possible and not about a successful software project.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31539258</id>
	<title>Re:Not giving up... my fat @</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269018300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>He will get his bonus anyways, because to shareholders, he'll be increasing the profit in the short-term.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>He will get his bonus anyways , because to shareholders , he 'll be increasing the profit in the short-term .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He will get his bonus anyways, because to shareholders, he'll be increasing the profit in the short-term.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530116</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531764</id>
	<title>Capitalism vs Communism</title>
	<author>MrKaos</author>
	<datestamp>1268922960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'd like to take a 'the world is rosy' kind of world view and think capitalism is investing in communism and soon we will all stand together holding hands singing 'Kom By - yah'.</p><p>
In reality Capitalism and Communism are both dead philosophies with Corporatism the new ism prepared to exploit any source of labor as cheaply as possible. Educated or not, physical or knowledge work U.S or Chinese (or any other nation) the word 'opportunity' seems to becoming less and less available to people who don't sit on a  board of directors. Not everyone wants to so what should people be striving for?</p><p>
Chinese people aren't gaining anything, in terms of working conditions or education, at the expense of America's wealth and opportunity. Somehow the people of both nations gain little, Chimerica, ChinAmerica it's not about us or them, it's 'WEast' - brought together so we both can lose.</p><p>
I'm sorry, I don't mean to be cynical but our economic system seems so completely fucked right now even though the problems are relatively easy too fix and totally apolitical in nature. The problem is the existing establishment brings so much force to bare on maintaining the status quo they seem utterly irresistible.</p><p>
Never more a time than now has the enemy been ourselves.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd like to take a 'the world is rosy ' kind of world view and think capitalism is investing in communism and soon we will all stand together holding hands singing 'Kom By - yah' .
In reality Capitalism and Communism are both dead philosophies with Corporatism the new ism prepared to exploit any source of labor as cheaply as possible .
Educated or not , physical or knowledge work U.S or Chinese ( or any other nation ) the word 'opportunity ' seems to becoming less and less available to people who do n't sit on a board of directors .
Not everyone wants to so what should people be striving for ?
Chinese people are n't gaining anything , in terms of working conditions or education , at the expense of America 's wealth and opportunity .
Somehow the people of both nations gain little , Chimerica , ChinAmerica it 's not about us or them , it 's 'WEast ' - brought together so we both can lose .
I 'm sorry , I do n't mean to be cynical but our economic system seems so completely fucked right now even though the problems are relatively easy too fix and totally apolitical in nature .
The problem is the existing establishment brings so much force to bare on maintaining the status quo they seem utterly irresistible .
Never more a time than now has the enemy been ourselves .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd like to take a 'the world is rosy' kind of world view and think capitalism is investing in communism and soon we will all stand together holding hands singing 'Kom By - yah'.
In reality Capitalism and Communism are both dead philosophies with Corporatism the new ism prepared to exploit any source of labor as cheaply as possible.
Educated or not, physical or knowledge work U.S or Chinese (or any other nation) the word 'opportunity' seems to becoming less and less available to people who don't sit on a  board of directors.
Not everyone wants to so what should people be striving for?
Chinese people aren't gaining anything, in terms of working conditions or education, at the expense of America's wealth and opportunity.
Somehow the people of both nations gain little, Chimerica, ChinAmerica it's not about us or them, it's 'WEast' - brought together so we both can lose.
I'm sorry, I don't mean to be cynical but our economic system seems so completely fucked right now even though the problems are relatively easy too fix and totally apolitical in nature.
The problem is the existing establishment brings so much force to bare on maintaining the status quo they seem utterly irresistible.
Never more a time than now has the enemy been ourselves.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531344</id>
	<title>Re:Civil engineering.</title>
	<author>BLKMGK</author>
	<datestamp>1268919720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In case you haven't noticed many of our bridges and infrastructure is aging and not aging well at that! Seen anyone making massive efforts to fix it?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In case you have n't noticed many of our bridges and infrastructure is aging and not aging well at that !
Seen anyone making massive efforts to fix it ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In case you haven't noticed many of our bridges and infrastructure is aging and not aging well at that!
Seen anyone making massive efforts to fix it?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530146</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530446</id>
	<title>"free traders"</title>
	<author>MyFirstNameIsPaul</author>
	<datestamp>1268913900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I find that terms such as free trade, capitalism, etc., are thrown around a bit too loosely.  Most of the strongest proponents of free trade warned long ago that developing nations will overtake the U.S.  Milton Friedman said that a foreign worker can learn the job of any American worker.  Peter Schiff goes into great detail in his books to explain how the trade deficit is basically the annual amount of American wealth transferred overseas every year.  The 'free marketers' you are referring to are likely neocons who spew all kinds of drivel to gain popular support of conservatives.</p><p>America already is in the service industry.  A Chinese factory I do sales and marketing for purchased another factory that made a similar product, but a much newer technology that is used in common electronic devices (the old products were for automobiles).  When I began selling these newer products I discovered that there are pretty much zero consumer electronics companies that use this component that even do their engineering in the U.S.  This was a huge wake up call when I realized that most of the companies in the U.S. only do sales, marketing, and distribution - that's a very scary position for a nation to be in.</p><p>The cause of the employment problem is that we have too many federal regulations on employment and not enough <a href="http://www.reason.org/files/a87d1550853898a9b306ef458f116079.pdf" title="reason.org">legal immigrants</a> [reason.org][pdf].  Forcing employers to pay their workers at higher rates than employers in other countries just makes the employer uncompetitive in the marketplace, thus sending the production overseas, and in many cases the rest of the company goes with it.  Charging a high tax rate to pay for entitlements such as Social Security and high income taxes makes the employees even more expensive.  On top of that, there are federal requirements on unemployment insurance and worker's compensation insurance, plus a tax code labyrinth of epic proportions.  The reality is that when we put these requirements onto the employers, we lose the employers, thus in an effort to guarantee worker safety, the worker loses the job.</p><p>America will likely continue its transition into a 3rd world nation with very serious inflation and very high unemployment rates unless something changes dramatically, but it is not the fault of the corporations.  Blaming a corporation makes as much sense as blaming a building.  The issue is not with the corporations, but rather with the control that Washington D.C. exercises over our economy.  If we eliminate the central control, then we would recover from this death roll and return to prosperity.</p><p>Also, I should point out that the statement "corporations have essentially dismantled US tech and manufacturing, which, for most of America's history, have been the backbone of this country" makes no sense because that backbone <i>was</i> corporations, so you are claiming that they are the backbone of our success and the cause of our failure, which makes no sense and is not true.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I find that terms such as free trade , capitalism , etc. , are thrown around a bit too loosely .
Most of the strongest proponents of free trade warned long ago that developing nations will overtake the U.S. Milton Friedman said that a foreign worker can learn the job of any American worker .
Peter Schiff goes into great detail in his books to explain how the trade deficit is basically the annual amount of American wealth transferred overseas every year .
The 'free marketers ' you are referring to are likely neocons who spew all kinds of drivel to gain popular support of conservatives.America already is in the service industry .
A Chinese factory I do sales and marketing for purchased another factory that made a similar product , but a much newer technology that is used in common electronic devices ( the old products were for automobiles ) .
When I began selling these newer products I discovered that there are pretty much zero consumer electronics companies that use this component that even do their engineering in the U.S. This was a huge wake up call when I realized that most of the companies in the U.S. only do sales , marketing , and distribution - that 's a very scary position for a nation to be in.The cause of the employment problem is that we have too many federal regulations on employment and not enough legal immigrants [ reason.org ] [ pdf ] .
Forcing employers to pay their workers at higher rates than employers in other countries just makes the employer uncompetitive in the marketplace , thus sending the production overseas , and in many cases the rest of the company goes with it .
Charging a high tax rate to pay for entitlements such as Social Security and high income taxes makes the employees even more expensive .
On top of that , there are federal requirements on unemployment insurance and worker 's compensation insurance , plus a tax code labyrinth of epic proportions .
The reality is that when we put these requirements onto the employers , we lose the employers , thus in an effort to guarantee worker safety , the worker loses the job.America will likely continue its transition into a 3rd world nation with very serious inflation and very high unemployment rates unless something changes dramatically , but it is not the fault of the corporations .
Blaming a corporation makes as much sense as blaming a building .
The issue is not with the corporations , but rather with the control that Washington D.C. exercises over our economy .
If we eliminate the central control , then we would recover from this death roll and return to prosperity.Also , I should point out that the statement " corporations have essentially dismantled US tech and manufacturing , which , for most of America 's history , have been the backbone of this country " makes no sense because that backbone was corporations , so you are claiming that they are the backbone of our success and the cause of our failure , which makes no sense and is not true .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I find that terms such as free trade, capitalism, etc., are thrown around a bit too loosely.
Most of the strongest proponents of free trade warned long ago that developing nations will overtake the U.S.  Milton Friedman said that a foreign worker can learn the job of any American worker.
Peter Schiff goes into great detail in his books to explain how the trade deficit is basically the annual amount of American wealth transferred overseas every year.
The 'free marketers' you are referring to are likely neocons who spew all kinds of drivel to gain popular support of conservatives.America already is in the service industry.
A Chinese factory I do sales and marketing for purchased another factory that made a similar product, but a much newer technology that is used in common electronic devices (the old products were for automobiles).
When I began selling these newer products I discovered that there are pretty much zero consumer electronics companies that use this component that even do their engineering in the U.S.  This was a huge wake up call when I realized that most of the companies in the U.S. only do sales, marketing, and distribution - that's a very scary position for a nation to be in.The cause of the employment problem is that we have too many federal regulations on employment and not enough legal immigrants [reason.org][pdf].
Forcing employers to pay their workers at higher rates than employers in other countries just makes the employer uncompetitive in the marketplace, thus sending the production overseas, and in many cases the rest of the company goes with it.
Charging a high tax rate to pay for entitlements such as Social Security and high income taxes makes the employees even more expensive.
On top of that, there are federal requirements on unemployment insurance and worker's compensation insurance, plus a tax code labyrinth of epic proportions.
The reality is that when we put these requirements onto the employers, we lose the employers, thus in an effort to guarantee worker safety, the worker loses the job.America will likely continue its transition into a 3rd world nation with very serious inflation and very high unemployment rates unless something changes dramatically, but it is not the fault of the corporations.
Blaming a corporation makes as much sense as blaming a building.
The issue is not with the corporations, but rather with the control that Washington D.C. exercises over our economy.
If we eliminate the central control, then we would recover from this death roll and return to prosperity.Also, I should point out that the statement "corporations have essentially dismantled US tech and manufacturing, which, for most of America's history, have been the backbone of this country" makes no sense because that backbone was corporations, so you are claiming that they are the backbone of our success and the cause of our failure, which makes no sense and is not true.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529824</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31532870</id>
	<title>Re:Hey Guys</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268933100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Idiot in Suit #2 is actually Smart, Greedy Guy in Suit.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Idiot in Suit # 2 is actually Smart , Greedy Guy in Suit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Idiot in Suit #2 is actually Smart, Greedy Guy in Suit.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530016</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530432</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>peragrin</author>
	<datestamp>1268913840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>truth?  the last full region to be exploited will be the USA.  The USA has all the materials needed for a high tech society sitting in the ground.  American capitalism is doing the smart thing.  Using up everyone else's resources first, and then between our landfills, and other large quantities of resources we will literally own the rest of the world.</p><p>PA is still loading with steel even though none of it is mined any more.  it is recycled and imported. When push comes to shove the USA has more resources than it needs for the next couple of centuries.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>truth ?
the last full region to be exploited will be the USA .
The USA has all the materials needed for a high tech society sitting in the ground .
American capitalism is doing the smart thing .
Using up everyone else 's resources first , and then between our landfills , and other large quantities of resources we will literally own the rest of the world.PA is still loading with steel even though none of it is mined any more .
it is recycled and imported .
When push comes to shove the USA has more resources than it needs for the next couple of centuries .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>truth?
the last full region to be exploited will be the USA.
The USA has all the materials needed for a high tech society sitting in the ground.
American capitalism is doing the smart thing.
Using up everyone else's resources first, and then between our landfills, and other large quantities of resources we will literally own the rest of the world.PA is still loading with steel even though none of it is mined any more.
it is recycled and imported.
When push comes to shove the USA has more resources than it needs for the next couple of centuries.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529796</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531368</id>
	<title>Re:"free traders"</title>
	<author>myowntrueself</author>
	<datestamp>1268919900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>America will likely continue its transition into a 3rd world nation</p></div><p>The USA is already a third world nation.</p><p>It has some first world city-states.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>America will likely continue its transition into a 3rd world nationThe USA is already a third world nation.It has some first world city-states .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>America will likely continue its transition into a 3rd world nationThe USA is already a third world nation.It has some first world city-states.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530446</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530020</id>
	<title>Good news if it results in less regulation</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268911500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The fact of the matter is that US based engineers are simply overpaid and receive too many benefits.  I myself am an engineering manager at a small startup and we are looking to move work to China simply because the people there are willing to do the same job as our US employees for a fraction of the cost in both pay and regulatory overhead.  If the USA wants to compete in the free market then we need to start lowering our expectations of what kind of pay and benefits we should expect from our employers.  In addition, we need to fight for lower government regulation of private enterprise.  We need to remove environmental and labor restrictions, rules about the number of hours people can work, and the endless safety regulations they work under, etc.  If the government sees jobs moving overseas, it will need to adapt to prevent it, and in the end the FREE MARKET wins, which I think everyone here will agree is a great thing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The fact of the matter is that US based engineers are simply overpaid and receive too many benefits .
I myself am an engineering manager at a small startup and we are looking to move work to China simply because the people there are willing to do the same job as our US employees for a fraction of the cost in both pay and regulatory overhead .
If the USA wants to compete in the free market then we need to start lowering our expectations of what kind of pay and benefits we should expect from our employers .
In addition , we need to fight for lower government regulation of private enterprise .
We need to remove environmental and labor restrictions , rules about the number of hours people can work , and the endless safety regulations they work under , etc .
If the government sees jobs moving overseas , it will need to adapt to prevent it , and in the end the FREE MARKET wins , which I think everyone here will agree is a great thing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The fact of the matter is that US based engineers are simply overpaid and receive too many benefits.
I myself am an engineering manager at a small startup and we are looking to move work to China simply because the people there are willing to do the same job as our US employees for a fraction of the cost in both pay and regulatory overhead.
If the USA wants to compete in the free market then we need to start lowering our expectations of what kind of pay and benefits we should expect from our employers.
In addition, we need to fight for lower government regulation of private enterprise.
We need to remove environmental and labor restrictions, rules about the number of hours people can work, and the endless safety regulations they work under, etc.
If the government sees jobs moving overseas, it will need to adapt to prevent it, and in the end the FREE MARKET wins, which I think everyone here will agree is a great thing.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31539422</id>
	<title>Re:Let a 50 year old Engineer tell you something</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269018840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree with you. I also noticed that at least US companies made the mistake of outsourcing R&amp;D first. As you said, perhaps production is a matter of interest and IP may not be as important, but when some companies decided to provide US universities with money for research and stopped doing their own, they start losing, because they will publish results that are widely available to anyone. </p><p>As you said, not outsourcing production, will leave those companies only with... administrative staff.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree with you .
I also noticed that at least US companies made the mistake of outsourcing R&amp;D first .
As you said , perhaps production is a matter of interest and IP may not be as important , but when some companies decided to provide US universities with money for research and stopped doing their own , they start losing , because they will publish results that are widely available to anyone .
As you said , not outsourcing production , will leave those companies only with... administrative staff .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree with you.
I also noticed that at least US companies made the mistake of outsourcing R&amp;D first.
As you said, perhaps production is a matter of interest and IP may not be as important, but when some companies decided to provide US universities with money for research and stopped doing their own, they start losing, because they will publish results that are widely available to anyone.
As you said, not outsourcing production, will leave those companies only with... administrative staff.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530788</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31533684</id>
	<title>Re:I wonder what will happen in the long run?</title>
	<author>BJ\_Covert\_Action</author>
	<datestamp>1269031080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>but none of these jobs pay very well</p></div><p>
That's a fast dying stereotype my friend. You should check out: <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=oc4XsaqD4qsC&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;dq=shop+class+as+soulcraft&amp;cd=1#v=onepage&amp;q=&amp;f=false" title="google.com">Shop Class as Soulcraft by Matthew B. Crawford.</a> [google.com] It's a hell of an interesting read and it makes for a good discussion of service sector jobs in an increasingly complex society like our own. Furthermore, it hits on some good old fashioned common sense discussions of white collar versus blue collar jobs. Personally, I've been thinking about opening a motorcycle shop since I read it (and yes, I do have prior experience working on motorcycles).</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>but none of these jobs pay very well That 's a fast dying stereotype my friend .
You should check out : Shop Class as Soulcraft by Matthew B. Crawford. [ google.com ] It 's a hell of an interesting read and it makes for a good discussion of service sector jobs in an increasingly complex society like our own .
Furthermore , it hits on some good old fashioned common sense discussions of white collar versus blue collar jobs .
Personally , I 've been thinking about opening a motorcycle shop since I read it ( and yes , I do have prior experience working on motorcycles ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>but none of these jobs pay very well
That's a fast dying stereotype my friend.
You should check out: Shop Class as Soulcraft by Matthew B. Crawford. [google.com] It's a hell of an interesting read and it makes for a good discussion of service sector jobs in an increasingly complex society like our own.
Furthermore, it hits on some good old fashioned common sense discussions of white collar versus blue collar jobs.
Personally, I've been thinking about opening a motorcycle shop since I read it (and yes, I do have prior experience working on motorcycles).
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529824</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531246</id>
	<title>Self-interest says side with humans over markets..</title>
	<author>Paul Fernhout</author>
	<datestamp>1268918940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Robots, AI, better design, and limited demand are probably going to take your job eventually; see Marshall Brain's "Manna" story for what it might look like:<br>
    <a href="http://www.marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm" title="marshallbrain.com">http://www.marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm</a> [marshallbrain.com] </p><p>You can worship the "free market" abstraction all you want, and by extension the big companies that dominate it,<br>
  "The Market as God: Living in the new dispensation"<br>
  <a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/99mar/marketgod.htm" title="theatlantic.com">http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/99mar/marketgod.htm</a> [theatlantic.com] <br>but enlightened self-interest (let alone morality) suggests you should be more on the side of the humans than an abstract concept about exchange, one that ignores externalities as well as the negative side of the concentration of wealth by using huge immortal amoral corporations that would treat any human like a piece of discardable machinery if it is profitable.</p><p>With a 21st century technosphere capable of producing so much abundance for all, for humanity to survive, we need fundamental change in our basic economic paradigms like a basic income (which works with the market but is a human right saying everyone has a right to some fruits of the industrial commons),<br>
  <a href="http://www.basicincome.org/bien/aboutbasicincome.html" title="basicincome.org">http://www.basicincome.org/bien/aboutbasicincome.html</a> [basicincome.org] <br>Or going further, we need some mix of a basic income and a gift economy, improved local subsistence, making work into play, resource based planning, and other things...</p><p>Something related I helped organize:<br>
  <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobless\_recovery" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobless\_recovery</a> [wikipedia.org] </p><p>By the way, if we moved to a basic income (a check from the government that is enough to live on each month, with no means test, funded by taxes or some other means), then it might be justified to do away with some of those other employee protections you decry, because engineers would have the freedom to say "No" and walk away. That might do a lot more to make the US competitive than the race to the bottom for US engineers that you propose.<br>
  "Freedom as the Power to Say No"<br>
  <a href="http://www.basicincome.org/bien/pdf/2004Widerquist.pdf" title="basicincome.org">http://www.basicincome.org/bien/pdf/2004Widerquist.pdf</a> [basicincome.org] </p><p>China will be where the US is soon enough (twenty years?), with a jobless recovery with economic growth but no new jobs, as China's productivity per worker continues to grow and then demand gets saturated when people there realize there is a law of diminishing returns to more goods and services (especially as people move up Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs to want to do more of their own self-directed stuff). What then?</p><p>The best things in life are cheap or free, and if they were not, what kind of world would that be anyway? Someday the Chinese will realize that, hopefully before they finish trashing their environment. At least there is some good news about improvement on Chinese environmental policy lately, so I can hope the Chinese are moving up that curve...<br>
  <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environment\_of\_China" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environment\_of\_China</a> [wikipedia.org] </p><p>By the way, as for why all those US worker protections are so important in the "free market", try reading "The China Price".<br>
  <a href="http://thechinaprice.org/home.html" title="thechinaprice.org">http://thechinaprice.org/home.html</a> [thechinaprice.org] <br>"The book exposes a system of unregistered factories that cut corners on safety and working conditions to meet multinational companies' demands for ever-lower prices. It documents how China's export manufacturing industry allows millions of workers to move slowly out of poverty - even as they pay a price in terms of their own health. How the country's coal mining sector continues to thrive - even as it produces a stunning 70 percent of the world's coal mining deaths. And how a growing number of younger wo</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Robots , AI , better design , and limited demand are probably going to take your job eventually ; see Marshall Brain 's " Manna " story for what it might look like : http : //www.marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm [ marshallbrain.com ] You can worship the " free market " abstraction all you want , and by extension the big companies that dominate it , " The Market as God : Living in the new dispensation " http : //www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/99mar/marketgod.htm [ theatlantic.com ] but enlightened self-interest ( let alone morality ) suggests you should be more on the side of the humans than an abstract concept about exchange , one that ignores externalities as well as the negative side of the concentration of wealth by using huge immortal amoral corporations that would treat any human like a piece of discardable machinery if it is profitable.With a 21st century technosphere capable of producing so much abundance for all , for humanity to survive , we need fundamental change in our basic economic paradigms like a basic income ( which works with the market but is a human right saying everyone has a right to some fruits of the industrial commons ) , http : //www.basicincome.org/bien/aboutbasicincome.html [ basicincome.org ] Or going further , we need some mix of a basic income and a gift economy , improved local subsistence , making work into play , resource based planning , and other things...Something related I helped organize : http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobless \ _recovery [ wikipedia.org ] By the way , if we moved to a basic income ( a check from the government that is enough to live on each month , with no means test , funded by taxes or some other means ) , then it might be justified to do away with some of those other employee protections you decry , because engineers would have the freedom to say " No " and walk away .
That might do a lot more to make the US competitive than the race to the bottom for US engineers that you propose .
" Freedom as the Power to Say No " http : //www.basicincome.org/bien/pdf/2004Widerquist.pdf [ basicincome.org ] China will be where the US is soon enough ( twenty years ?
) , with a jobless recovery with economic growth but no new jobs , as China 's productivity per worker continues to grow and then demand gets saturated when people there realize there is a law of diminishing returns to more goods and services ( especially as people move up Maslow 's Hierarchy of Needs to want to do more of their own self-directed stuff ) .
What then ? The best things in life are cheap or free , and if they were not , what kind of world would that be anyway ?
Someday the Chinese will realize that , hopefully before they finish trashing their environment .
At least there is some good news about improvement on Chinese environmental policy lately , so I can hope the Chinese are moving up that curve.. . http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environment \ _of \ _China [ wikipedia.org ] By the way , as for why all those US worker protections are so important in the " free market " , try reading " The China Price " .
http : //thechinaprice.org/home.html [ thechinaprice.org ] " The book exposes a system of unregistered factories that cut corners on safety and working conditions to meet multinational companies ' demands for ever-lower prices .
It documents how China 's export manufacturing industry allows millions of workers to move slowly out of poverty - even as they pay a price in terms of their own health .
How the country 's coal mining sector continues to thrive - even as it produces a stunning 70 percent of the world 's coal mining deaths .
And how a growing number of younger wo</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Robots, AI, better design, and limited demand are probably going to take your job eventually; see Marshall Brain's "Manna" story for what it might look like:
    http://www.marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm [marshallbrain.com] You can worship the "free market" abstraction all you want, and by extension the big companies that dominate it,
  "The Market as God: Living in the new dispensation"
  http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/99mar/marketgod.htm [theatlantic.com] but enlightened self-interest (let alone morality) suggests you should be more on the side of the humans than an abstract concept about exchange, one that ignores externalities as well as the negative side of the concentration of wealth by using huge immortal amoral corporations that would treat any human like a piece of discardable machinery if it is profitable.With a 21st century technosphere capable of producing so much abundance for all, for humanity to survive, we need fundamental change in our basic economic paradigms like a basic income (which works with the market but is a human right saying everyone has a right to some fruits of the industrial commons),
  http://www.basicincome.org/bien/aboutbasicincome.html [basicincome.org] Or going further, we need some mix of a basic income and a gift economy, improved local subsistence, making work into play, resource based planning, and other things...Something related I helped organize:
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobless\_recovery [wikipedia.org] By the way, if we moved to a basic income (a check from the government that is enough to live on each month, with no means test, funded by taxes or some other means), then it might be justified to do away with some of those other employee protections you decry, because engineers would have the freedom to say "No" and walk away.
That might do a lot more to make the US competitive than the race to the bottom for US engineers that you propose.
"Freedom as the Power to Say No"
  http://www.basicincome.org/bien/pdf/2004Widerquist.pdf [basicincome.org] China will be where the US is soon enough (twenty years?
), with a jobless recovery with economic growth but no new jobs, as China's productivity per worker continues to grow and then demand gets saturated when people there realize there is a law of diminishing returns to more goods and services (especially as people move up Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs to want to do more of their own self-directed stuff).
What then?The best things in life are cheap or free, and if they were not, what kind of world would that be anyway?
Someday the Chinese will realize that, hopefully before they finish trashing their environment.
At least there is some good news about improvement on Chinese environmental policy lately, so I can hope the Chinese are moving up that curve...
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environment\_of\_China [wikipedia.org] By the way, as for why all those US worker protections are so important in the "free market", try reading "The China Price".
http://thechinaprice.org/home.html [thechinaprice.org] "The book exposes a system of unregistered factories that cut corners on safety and working conditions to meet multinational companies' demands for ever-lower prices.
It documents how China's export manufacturing industry allows millions of workers to move slowly out of poverty - even as they pay a price in terms of their own health.
How the country's coal mining sector continues to thrive - even as it produces a stunning 70 percent of the world's coal mining deaths.
And how a growing number of younger wo</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530020</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31532994</id>
	<title>Re:Good news if it results in less regulation</title>
	<author>klui</author>
	<datestamp>1268934420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I eagerly await the day when your job is outsourced and then you get another job working 18x6 with a salary of $3.50/hour.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I eagerly await the day when your job is outsourced and then you get another job working 18x6 with a salary of $ 3.50/hour .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I eagerly await the day when your job is outsourced and then you get another job working 18x6 with a salary of $3.50/hour.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530020</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31532980</id>
	<title>Re:Good job</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268934240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p><div class="quote"><p> If we had made it easy for the smart chinese and indians to stay here - then research bases would be here and only manufacturing would move.</p></div><p>Exactly.  I'm all for extremely easy immigration for skilled workers.  I am however against letting in unskilled people - no, it's not because I think I'm better than them, it's because we already have more than enough poor people that we don't need to be importing any.</p><p>Another way to stop outsourcing and actually have IN-sourcing is to drastically cut (possibly even eliminate) corporate taxes.  The US has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world (15\%-39\% for Federal taxes and 0\%-12\% for State taxes, so potentially a 51\% corporate tax rate) and it's a known fact among economists that it's harming the US economy.  If we cut corporate taxes so that we were lower than average, then it would provide great incentive not only to keep jobs here but also for foreign companies to move their operations to the US.  Combine low corporate taxes with easy immigration for skilled workers and you have a perfect recipe for a booming economy.</p></div><p>What a bunch of nonsense. The real problem is the USA has effectively done away with tariffs while other countries, especially China and India, maintain tariffs.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If we had made it easy for the smart chinese and indians to stay here - then research bases would be here and only manufacturing would move.Exactly .
I 'm all for extremely easy immigration for skilled workers .
I am however against letting in unskilled people - no , it 's not because I think I 'm better than them , it 's because we already have more than enough poor people that we do n't need to be importing any.Another way to stop outsourcing and actually have IN-sourcing is to drastically cut ( possibly even eliminate ) corporate taxes .
The US has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world ( 15 \ % -39 \ % for Federal taxes and 0 \ % -12 \ % for State taxes , so potentially a 51 \ % corporate tax rate ) and it 's a known fact among economists that it 's harming the US economy .
If we cut corporate taxes so that we were lower than average , then it would provide great incentive not only to keep jobs here but also for foreign companies to move their operations to the US .
Combine low corporate taxes with easy immigration for skilled workers and you have a perfect recipe for a booming economy.What a bunch of nonsense .
The real problem is the USA has effectively done away with tariffs while other countries , especially China and India , maintain tariffs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> If we had made it easy for the smart chinese and indians to stay here - then research bases would be here and only manufacturing would move.Exactly.
I'm all for extremely easy immigration for skilled workers.
I am however against letting in unskilled people - no, it's not because I think I'm better than them, it's because we already have more than enough poor people that we don't need to be importing any.Another way to stop outsourcing and actually have IN-sourcing is to drastically cut (possibly even eliminate) corporate taxes.
The US has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world (15\%-39\% for Federal taxes and 0\%-12\% for State taxes, so potentially a 51\% corporate tax rate) and it's a known fact among economists that it's harming the US economy.
If we cut corporate taxes so that we were lower than average, then it would provide great incentive not only to keep jobs here but also for foreign companies to move their operations to the US.
Combine low corporate taxes with easy immigration for skilled workers and you have a perfect recipe for a booming economy.What a bunch of nonsense.
The real problem is the USA has effectively done away with tariffs while other countries, especially China and India, maintain tariffs.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530606</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530918</id>
	<title>Re:Good news if it results in less regulation</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268916840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>If the free market won't help me, fuck the free market.</i></p><p>You appear to be missing the point.  You promoting your own self interest is EXACTLY WHAT THE FREE MARKET IS ABOUT!  Eliminating environmental and labor and safety regulation will allow you to continue to work and feed your family right here in the USA, and if you are smart and innovative enough, you will be able to succeed beyond your wildest dreams!  As I said in my original post, the only thing holding back smart people in the US is the rampant statism that enforces a bare minimum for everyone thorugh regulation, forcing companies to go overseas and robbing the smartest and the most talented locals of their ability to rise up to where they belong.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If the free market wo n't help me , fuck the free market.You appear to be missing the point .
You promoting your own self interest is EXACTLY WHAT THE FREE MARKET IS ABOUT !
Eliminating environmental and labor and safety regulation will allow you to continue to work and feed your family right here in the USA , and if you are smart and innovative enough , you will be able to succeed beyond your wildest dreams !
As I said in my original post , the only thing holding back smart people in the US is the rampant statism that enforces a bare minimum for everyone thorugh regulation , forcing companies to go overseas and robbing the smartest and the most talented locals of their ability to rise up to where they belong .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the free market won't help me, fuck the free market.You appear to be missing the point.
You promoting your own self interest is EXACTLY WHAT THE FREE MARKET IS ABOUT!
Eliminating environmental and labor and safety regulation will allow you to continue to work and feed your family right here in the USA, and if you are smart and innovative enough, you will be able to succeed beyond your wildest dreams!
As I said in my original post, the only thing holding back smart people in the US is the rampant statism that enforces a bare minimum for everyone thorugh regulation, forcing companies to go overseas and robbing the smartest and the most talented locals of their ability to rise up to where they belong.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530184</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530738</id>
	<title>Re:Good job</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268915700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Problem being, and this is as a contractor that has dealt with both, I'd rather take the Americans in the US for US projects. I'm sorry, but what passes for learning programming in India is a joke. I literally invoked a clause in my contract that gave me a 1 year extension after proving (demonstrably) that the Indian team was making the US team not only do their own work, but fix the Indian work this idiot company hired. I'm not alone in having had to deal with this either. One of my friends worked as a SysAdmin at KC, and they outsourced a bunch of servers. Shortly thereafter, they were pulled back and the contract terminated because of pi$$ poor performance.</p><p>H1-B? Well, Joe Citizen's education was too expensive, because it was in the US, just replace him! Contrary to popular belief, H1-B's are not hired very often for jobs with a real lack of applicants. Go look up on the companies that consult how to ensure you get an H1-B. They made videos of their presentations on how to shut out <b>qualified</b> US applicants to jobs.</p><p>This situation, however, is more about bad US energy policy. Big companies get billions, but the actual research houses get squat. The US has a very skewed energy policy because of large business and hippies. There's very little actual science behind it, and it's almost always pork that leads to the awards.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Problem being , and this is as a contractor that has dealt with both , I 'd rather take the Americans in the US for US projects .
I 'm sorry , but what passes for learning programming in India is a joke .
I literally invoked a clause in my contract that gave me a 1 year extension after proving ( demonstrably ) that the Indian team was making the US team not only do their own work , but fix the Indian work this idiot company hired .
I 'm not alone in having had to deal with this either .
One of my friends worked as a SysAdmin at KC , and they outsourced a bunch of servers .
Shortly thereafter , they were pulled back and the contract terminated because of pi $ $ poor performance.H1-B ?
Well , Joe Citizen 's education was too expensive , because it was in the US , just replace him !
Contrary to popular belief , H1-B 's are not hired very often for jobs with a real lack of applicants .
Go look up on the companies that consult how to ensure you get an H1-B .
They made videos of their presentations on how to shut out qualified US applicants to jobs.This situation , however , is more about bad US energy policy .
Big companies get billions , but the actual research houses get squat .
The US has a very skewed energy policy because of large business and hippies .
There 's very little actual science behind it , and it 's almost always pork that leads to the awards .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Problem being, and this is as a contractor that has dealt with both, I'd rather take the Americans in the US for US projects.
I'm sorry, but what passes for learning programming in India is a joke.
I literally invoked a clause in my contract that gave me a 1 year extension after proving (demonstrably) that the Indian team was making the US team not only do their own work, but fix the Indian work this idiot company hired.
I'm not alone in having had to deal with this either.
One of my friends worked as a SysAdmin at KC, and they outsourced a bunch of servers.
Shortly thereafter, they were pulled back and the contract terminated because of pi$$ poor performance.H1-B?
Well, Joe Citizen's education was too expensive, because it was in the US, just replace him!
Contrary to popular belief, H1-B's are not hired very often for jobs with a real lack of applicants.
Go look up on the companies that consult how to ensure you get an H1-B.
They made videos of their presentations on how to shut out qualified US applicants to jobs.This situation, however, is more about bad US energy policy.
Big companies get billions, but the actual research houses get squat.
The US has a very skewed energy policy because of large business and hippies.
There's very little actual science behind it, and it's almost always pork that leads to the awards.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529892</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31534104</id>
	<title>Re:War</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268995560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I remember that in a mystical country, at some point during the wake of time, the prerequisite for a private enterprise was that it worked for the benefit of the country and its citizens.  Not the other way around.</p><p>Oh how much has changed.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I remember that in a mystical country , at some point during the wake of time , the prerequisite for a private enterprise was that it worked for the benefit of the country and its citizens .
Not the other way around.Oh how much has changed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I remember that in a mystical country, at some point during the wake of time, the prerequisite for a private enterprise was that it worked for the benefit of the country and its citizens.
Not the other way around.Oh how much has changed.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530010</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31532752</id>
	<title>Re:Good job</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268931840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>the meme that the US has the highest corporate tax rates in the world is complete and utter bunk and you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>the meme that the US has the highest corporate tax rates in the world is complete and utter bunk and you do n't have a clue as to what you 're talking about .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>the meme that the US has the highest corporate tax rates in the world is complete and utter bunk and you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530606</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31533716</id>
	<title>Re:Let a 50 year old Engineer tell you something</title>
	<author>BJ\_Covert\_Action</author>
	<datestamp>1269031800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>As a 24 year old, 2 years in industry Aerospace Engineer, I would like to ask, are you interested in restarting that apprenticeship program you talked about? I get the feeling I could learn a lot from you.</htmltext>
<tokenext>As a 24 year old , 2 years in industry Aerospace Engineer , I would like to ask , are you interested in restarting that apprenticeship program you talked about ?
I get the feeling I could learn a lot from you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a 24 year old, 2 years in industry Aerospace Engineer, I would like to ask, are you interested in restarting that apprenticeship program you talked about?
I get the feeling I could learn a lot from you.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530788</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529970</id>
	<title>Re:Sure sure</title>
	<author>HeckRuler</author>
	<datestamp>1268911200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Well hopefully they'll appeal for privliege of &ldquo;extraterritoriality" and hire out people to run in the shadows to defend their secrets.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Well hopefully they 'll appeal for privliege of    extraterritoriality " and hire out people to run in the shadows to defend their secrets .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well hopefully they'll appeal for privliege of “extraterritoriality" and hire out people to run in the shadows to defend their secrets.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529854</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531386</id>
	<title>Chinese Engineer != Western Engineer</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268920020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes there are sure to be some qualified engineers in China, but there is just no comparison to engineering programs at Chinese universities and those in the west. I think any company that is going to rely on them for innovation is going to be SOL.</p><p>Yes you can find a good small team in China. On a large scale, this just is going to be a disaster.  Unless they want their engineers memorizing things and rewriting them...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes there are sure to be some qualified engineers in China , but there is just no comparison to engineering programs at Chinese universities and those in the west .
I think any company that is going to rely on them for innovation is going to be SOL.Yes you can find a good small team in China .
On a large scale , this just is going to be a disaster .
Unless they want their engineers memorizing things and rewriting them.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes there are sure to be some qualified engineers in China, but there is just no comparison to engineering programs at Chinese universities and those in the west.
I think any company that is going to rely on them for innovation is going to be SOL.Yes you can find a good small team in China.
On a large scale, this just is going to be a disaster.
Unless they want their engineers memorizing things and rewriting them...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530140</id>
	<title>Re:I wonder what will happen in the long run?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268912160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>America's GDP is already 80\% services, the highest in the world for a medium to large country (&gt;10 million people).</p><p>That being said, just because x company is moving high-tech to y country doesn't mean that America is losing ground.  As China gets richer, they'll be importing more high-tech products; the net effect should support so much high-tech here that it makes up for any losses to China.</p><p>To clarify further, yes we import beef from other countries, but that is only because, as people, we enjoy differentiation.  We are also exporting a lot of beef to other countries.  Those 100 million cattle we have roaming around (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture\_in\_the\_United\_States) are going to someone's dinner table.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>America 's GDP is already 80 \ % services , the highest in the world for a medium to large country ( &gt; 10 million people ) .That being said , just because x company is moving high-tech to y country does n't mean that America is losing ground .
As China gets richer , they 'll be importing more high-tech products ; the net effect should support so much high-tech here that it makes up for any losses to China.To clarify further , yes we import beef from other countries , but that is only because , as people , we enjoy differentiation .
We are also exporting a lot of beef to other countries .
Those 100 million cattle we have roaming around ( http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture \ _in \ _the \ _United \ _States ) are going to someone 's dinner table .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>America's GDP is already 80\% services, the highest in the world for a medium to large country (&gt;10 million people).That being said, just because x company is moving high-tech to y country doesn't mean that America is losing ground.
As China gets richer, they'll be importing more high-tech products; the net effect should support so much high-tech here that it makes up for any losses to China.To clarify further, yes we import beef from other countries, but that is only because, as people, we enjoy differentiation.
We are also exporting a lot of beef to other countries.
Those 100 million cattle we have roaming around (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture\_in\_the\_United\_States) are going to someone's dinner table.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529824</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31532254</id>
	<title>Comparative Advantage</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268927460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Perhaps we just need to face the fact that tech R&amp;D cannot be our comparative advantage. The laws of physics are the same in Asia as they are in the US. Thus, if the labor and education is cheaper there, you can simply buy more researchers per dollar there.</p><p>Consumerism-based marketing appears to be the US's strong-point (comparative advantage) for good or bad. We are the best test market of world products and thus specialize in consumer analysis and marketing.</p><p>But another issue is that China seems to be keeping their currency artificially low in order to encourage exports (although it's difficult to audit China's currency rates). They are thus cheating on their labor rates. We should tariff trade imbalances to encourage them to stop such practices. Tariffs on differences are not evil, or at least less evil than trade imbalance bubbles. It's trading slightly-more expensive plastic lawn-chairs for added economic stability, and possibly better jobs.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Perhaps we just need to face the fact that tech R&amp;D can not be our comparative advantage .
The laws of physics are the same in Asia as they are in the US .
Thus , if the labor and education is cheaper there , you can simply buy more researchers per dollar there.Consumerism-based marketing appears to be the US 's strong-point ( comparative advantage ) for good or bad .
We are the best test market of world products and thus specialize in consumer analysis and marketing.But another issue is that China seems to be keeping their currency artificially low in order to encourage exports ( although it 's difficult to audit China 's currency rates ) .
They are thus cheating on their labor rates .
We should tariff trade imbalances to encourage them to stop such practices .
Tariffs on differences are not evil , or at least less evil than trade imbalance bubbles .
It 's trading slightly-more expensive plastic lawn-chairs for added economic stability , and possibly better jobs .
   </tokentext>
<sentencetext>Perhaps we just need to face the fact that tech R&amp;D cannot be our comparative advantage.
The laws of physics are the same in Asia as they are in the US.
Thus, if the labor and education is cheaper there, you can simply buy more researchers per dollar there.Consumerism-based marketing appears to be the US's strong-point (comparative advantage) for good or bad.
We are the best test market of world products and thus specialize in consumer analysis and marketing.But another issue is that China seems to be keeping their currency artificially low in order to encourage exports (although it's difficult to audit China's currency rates).
They are thus cheating on their labor rates.
We should tariff trade imbalances to encourage them to stop such practices.
Tariffs on differences are not evil, or at least less evil than trade imbalance bubbles.
It's trading slightly-more expensive plastic lawn-chairs for added economic stability, and possibly better jobs.
   </sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531450</id>
	<title>Re:Good job</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268920440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Bullshit. No corporation pays anywhere near the maximum, because in practice they get to shift their figures around and deduct all their expenses (and state tax counts as an expense when calculating the federal tax!). We may have high rates "on paper", but in reality, direct quote from wiki with 16 (!) cites, "The majority of U.S. corporations pay no federal income taxes." (Following one of those to CNN, they actually claim "nearly 2/3" of US companies and 68\% of foreign companies).</p><p>Further, from the same CNN article, "28\% of foreign companies and 25\% of U.S. corporations with more than $250 million in assets or $50 million in sales paid no federal income taxes in 2005. Those companies totaled a combined $372 billion in sales for the largest foreign companies and $1.1 trillion in revenue for the biggest U.S. companies."</p><p>That's not pocket change, that's 10\% of our total GDP. Untaxed.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Bullshit .
No corporation pays anywhere near the maximum , because in practice they get to shift their figures around and deduct all their expenses ( and state tax counts as an expense when calculating the federal tax ! ) .
We may have high rates " on paper " , but in reality , direct quote from wiki with 16 ( !
) cites , " The majority of U.S. corporations pay no federal income taxes .
" ( Following one of those to CNN , they actually claim " nearly 2/3 " of US companies and 68 \ % of foreign companies ) .Further , from the same CNN article , " 28 \ % of foreign companies and 25 \ % of U.S. corporations with more than $ 250 million in assets or $ 50 million in sales paid no federal income taxes in 2005 .
Those companies totaled a combined $ 372 billion in sales for the largest foreign companies and $ 1.1 trillion in revenue for the biggest U.S .
companies. " That 's not pocket change , that 's 10 \ % of our total GDP .
Untaxed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Bullshit.
No corporation pays anywhere near the maximum, because in practice they get to shift their figures around and deduct all their expenses (and state tax counts as an expense when calculating the federal tax!).
We may have high rates "on paper", but in reality, direct quote from wiki with 16 (!
) cites, "The majority of U.S. corporations pay no federal income taxes.
" (Following one of those to CNN, they actually claim "nearly 2/3" of US companies and 68\% of foreign companies).Further, from the same CNN article, "28\% of foreign companies and 25\% of U.S. corporations with more than $250 million in assets or $50 million in sales paid no federal income taxes in 2005.
Those companies totaled a combined $372 billion in sales for the largest foreign companies and $1.1 trillion in revenue for the biggest U.S.
companies."That's not pocket change, that's 10\% of our total GDP.
Untaxed.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530606</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31532852</id>
	<title>Re:Western and Eastern educations are not equivale</title>
	<author>blackraven14250</author>
	<datestamp>1268932920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>and they did it with less cash.</p></div><p>Let's just clarify this point: they did it with less cash because each worker gets paid less, has a lower standard of living, each company is willing to sell their materials for less, the government orders the construction of the power plant so there's no regulation to contend with, any homes at the site of the power plant not evacuated will be bulldozed with people still inside, and any dissenters will be disconnected from the internet forever and banned from telling their story.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>and they did it with less cash.Let 's just clarify this point : they did it with less cash because each worker gets paid less , has a lower standard of living , each company is willing to sell their materials for less , the government orders the construction of the power plant so there 's no regulation to contend with , any homes at the site of the power plant not evacuated will be bulldozed with people still inside , and any dissenters will be disconnected from the internet forever and banned from telling their story .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>and they did it with less cash.Let's just clarify this point: they did it with less cash because each worker gets paid less, has a lower standard of living, each company is willing to sell their materials for less, the government orders the construction of the power plant so there's no regulation to contend with, any homes at the site of the power plant not evacuated will be bulldozed with people still inside, and any dissenters will be disconnected from the internet forever and banned from telling their story.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531664</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31539172</id>
	<title>Re:Western and Eastern educations are not equivale</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269018060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As an Indian working in US for 15 years, I have seen a lot of Indian and American incapable of doing any original thinking. Also seen quite a few amazing and sharp thinkers. Intelligence and original thinking isn't a western only trait. Yes- The Asian mentality sometimes inhibits display of this trait but it doesn't mean it doesn't exits. Americans are very good at talking and using new buzz words in their vocabulary.  Most Asian are not. It doesn't mean they aren't smart.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As an Indian working in US for 15 years , I have seen a lot of Indian and American incapable of doing any original thinking .
Also seen quite a few amazing and sharp thinkers .
Intelligence and original thinking is n't a western only trait .
Yes- The Asian mentality sometimes inhibits display of this trait but it does n't mean it does n't exits .
Americans are very good at talking and using new buzz words in their vocabulary .
Most Asian are not .
It does n't mean they are n't smart .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As an Indian working in US for 15 years, I have seen a lot of Indian and American incapable of doing any original thinking.
Also seen quite a few amazing and sharp thinkers.
Intelligence and original thinking isn't a western only trait.
Yes- The Asian mentality sometimes inhibits display of this trait but it doesn't mean it doesn't exits.
Americans are very good at talking and using new buzz words in their vocabulary.
Most Asian are not.
It doesn't mean they aren't smart.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530470</id>
	<title>Re:Western and Eastern educations are not equivale</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268914020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>With the Internet and computers making information retrieval trivial, memorizing huge amounts of information really isn't as beneficial as it may have been.</p></div><p>So you're saying we should all put links to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen\_Square\_protests\_of\_1989" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">Tiananmin</a> [wikipedia.org] on our web pages, so we get a competitive advantage from being able to look thing up easier?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>With the Internet and computers making information retrieval trivial , memorizing huge amounts of information really is n't as beneficial as it may have been.So you 're saying we should all put links to Tiananmin [ wikipedia.org ] on our web pages , so we get a competitive advantage from being able to look thing up easier ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>With the Internet and computers making information retrieval trivial, memorizing huge amounts of information really isn't as beneficial as it may have been.So you're saying we should all put links to Tiananmin [wikipedia.org] on our web pages, so we get a competitive advantage from being able to look thing up easier?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531756</id>
	<title>Cheap labor draws high tech labor</title>
	<author>mc6809e</author>
	<datestamp>1268922900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There's a lesson there.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's a lesson there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's a lesson there.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529852</id>
	<title>Outsourcing</title>
	<author>symes</author>
	<datestamp>1268910720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Maybe, but the trouble with China is that you can't bet on the long-term. They are quite happy to pull the rug from under your feet, take your property off your hands and smother you in unintelligible paperwork at the drop of a hat. That's why China will probably not represent much of a threat, at least for the forseeable future.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe , but the trouble with China is that you ca n't bet on the long-term .
They are quite happy to pull the rug from under your feet , take your property off your hands and smother you in unintelligible paperwork at the drop of a hat .
That 's why China will probably not represent much of a threat , at least for the forseeable future .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe, but the trouble with China is that you can't bet on the long-term.
They are quite happy to pull the rug from under your feet, take your property off your hands and smother you in unintelligible paperwork at the drop of a hat.
That's why China will probably not represent much of a threat, at least for the forseeable future.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530026</id>
	<title>I wonder if they still get a tax break?</title>
	<author>HangingChad</author>
	<datestamp>1268911560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <i>The NY Times reports that American companies like Applied Materials are moving their research facilities and engineers to China as the country develops a high-tech economy that increasingly competes directly with the United States.</i>

</p><p>I wonder if those companies are still getting tax breaks to move jobs overseas?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The NY Times reports that American companies like Applied Materials are moving their research facilities and engineers to China as the country develops a high-tech economy that increasingly competes directly with the United States .
I wonder if those companies are still getting tax breaks to move jobs overseas ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext> The NY Times reports that American companies like Applied Materials are moving their research facilities and engineers to China as the country develops a high-tech economy that increasingly competes directly with the United States.
I wonder if those companies are still getting tax breaks to move jobs overseas?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31539960</id>
	<title>Re:Western and Eastern educations are not equivale</title>
	<author>chihowa</author>
	<datestamp>1269020700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's not the fact that the Indians aren't caucasian that's causing the problem, it's the way the education system is set up in India. Why would you infer a racist interpretation of his comment when he was clearly discussing the differing education systems?<br>
&nbsp; <br>FWIW, as a grad student in chemistry, I've noticed a stark difference between the abilities of Indians who got their BS in India and anyone who was educated in the States. While they're quite able to rattle off the names of any organic reaction you show them, they are completely baffled when told to apply an analytical approach to a problem that hasn't been solved before. The first trip for them is off to the library to find someone, <i>anyone</i>, who's solved this problem before so that they can just look up the answer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's not the fact that the Indians are n't caucasian that 's causing the problem , it 's the way the education system is set up in India .
Why would you infer a racist interpretation of his comment when he was clearly discussing the differing education systems ?
  FWIW , as a grad student in chemistry , I 've noticed a stark difference between the abilities of Indians who got their BS in India and anyone who was educated in the States .
While they 're quite able to rattle off the names of any organic reaction you show them , they are completely baffled when told to apply an analytical approach to a problem that has n't been solved before .
The first trip for them is off to the library to find someone , anyone , who 's solved this problem before so that they can just look up the answer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's not the fact that the Indians aren't caucasian that's causing the problem, it's the way the education system is set up in India.
Why would you infer a racist interpretation of his comment when he was clearly discussing the differing education systems?
  FWIW, as a grad student in chemistry, I've noticed a stark difference between the abilities of Indians who got their BS in India and anyone who was educated in the States.
While they're quite able to rattle off the names of any organic reaction you show them, they are completely baffled when told to apply an analytical approach to a problem that hasn't been solved before.
The first trip for them is off to the library to find someone, anyone, who's solved this problem before so that they can just look up the answer.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531660</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31532524</id>
	<title>Re:Good job</title>
	<author>Totenglocke</author>
	<datestamp>1268929680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>That was added to the Statue of Liberty in 1903, and has absolutely nothing to do with the Constitution, which is what we base our laws on (at least, we did).</htmltext>
<tokenext>That was added to the Statue of Liberty in 1903 , and has absolutely nothing to do with the Constitution , which is what we base our laws on ( at least , we did ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That was added to the Statue of Liberty in 1903, and has absolutely nothing to do with the Constitution, which is what we base our laws on (at least, we did).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31532156</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531136</id>
	<title>Re:Let a 50 year old Engineer tell you something</title>
	<author>nnnnnnn</author>
	<datestamp>1268918280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>You make a good point, but if you don't own the IP, your legal department won't let you produce a paper clip.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You make a good point , but if you do n't own the IP , your legal department wo n't let you produce a paper clip .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You make a good point, but if you don't own the IP, your legal department won't let you produce a paper clip.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530788</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530628</id>
	<title>Re:Good news if it results in less regulation</title>
	<author>pandrijeczko</author>
	<datestamp>1268914980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And you are *PRECISELY* what is completely wrong with 21st century management!</p><p>Firstly, you and your ilk created precisely the situation you are now running away from - you offered us the high salaries and benefits (which of course we took) to get us working for your company in the first place. You built huge industrial parks and that got new housing built around them so that we could live close to our places of work. You pocketed the profits in the good times, but now times are hard and your workers are taking home less money, you have decided to use it as an excuse to take more money by sacking us, employing cheaper workers overseas and pocketing the difference... plus you leave areas full of high unemployment because you all desert like rats leaving a sinking ship and those industrial parks you helped build.</p><p>Secondly, your corporations hold our governments in your pockets &amp; therefore you need *MORE* regulation of private enterprise to force you to adopt the morals you are incapable of introducing on your own. The best way of doing this is very simple - if you employ people in a country then the total of their salaries and costs is money you put into the country; the stuff or services you sell in the country is money you take out from it. Therefore, subtract the former from the latter and tax the remainder *HEAVILY*, thus making it extremely expensive for you to outsource.</p><p>Thirdly, and finally, you and your CEO "Boys' Club" do not get bonuses for 5 years. That will encourage you to be more longer-term in your thinking and not just chase quick bucks - likewise you are forced to stay working in a company, and to manage it properly, rather than disappearing somewhere else when one of your golf buddies gets a new CEO post and brings in all his old friends to work with him.</p><p>I don't know if you're trolling or genuine but then it doesn't matter because there are too many people already behaving exactly in the way you describe above - and those same people need to be brought into line so they do not have the opportunity of running away as quickly as possible with huge bonuses in their pockets while leaving utter decimation behind them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And you are * PRECISELY * what is completely wrong with 21st century management ! Firstly , you and your ilk created precisely the situation you are now running away from - you offered us the high salaries and benefits ( which of course we took ) to get us working for your company in the first place .
You built huge industrial parks and that got new housing built around them so that we could live close to our places of work .
You pocketed the profits in the good times , but now times are hard and your workers are taking home less money , you have decided to use it as an excuse to take more money by sacking us , employing cheaper workers overseas and pocketing the difference... plus you leave areas full of high unemployment because you all desert like rats leaving a sinking ship and those industrial parks you helped build.Secondly , your corporations hold our governments in your pockets &amp; therefore you need * MORE * regulation of private enterprise to force you to adopt the morals you are incapable of introducing on your own .
The best way of doing this is very simple - if you employ people in a country then the total of their salaries and costs is money you put into the country ; the stuff or services you sell in the country is money you take out from it .
Therefore , subtract the former from the latter and tax the remainder * HEAVILY * , thus making it extremely expensive for you to outsource.Thirdly , and finally , you and your CEO " Boys ' Club " do not get bonuses for 5 years .
That will encourage you to be more longer-term in your thinking and not just chase quick bucks - likewise you are forced to stay working in a company , and to manage it properly , rather than disappearing somewhere else when one of your golf buddies gets a new CEO post and brings in all his old friends to work with him.I do n't know if you 're trolling or genuine but then it does n't matter because there are too many people already behaving exactly in the way you describe above - and those same people need to be brought into line so they do not have the opportunity of running away as quickly as possible with huge bonuses in their pockets while leaving utter decimation behind them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And you are *PRECISELY* what is completely wrong with 21st century management!Firstly, you and your ilk created precisely the situation you are now running away from - you offered us the high salaries and benefits (which of course we took) to get us working for your company in the first place.
You built huge industrial parks and that got new housing built around them so that we could live close to our places of work.
You pocketed the profits in the good times, but now times are hard and your workers are taking home less money, you have decided to use it as an excuse to take more money by sacking us, employing cheaper workers overseas and pocketing the difference... plus you leave areas full of high unemployment because you all desert like rats leaving a sinking ship and those industrial parks you helped build.Secondly, your corporations hold our governments in your pockets &amp; therefore you need *MORE* regulation of private enterprise to force you to adopt the morals you are incapable of introducing on your own.
The best way of doing this is very simple - if you employ people in a country then the total of their salaries and costs is money you put into the country; the stuff or services you sell in the country is money you take out from it.
Therefore, subtract the former from the latter and tax the remainder *HEAVILY*, thus making it extremely expensive for you to outsource.Thirdly, and finally, you and your CEO "Boys' Club" do not get bonuses for 5 years.
That will encourage you to be more longer-term in your thinking and not just chase quick bucks - likewise you are forced to stay working in a company, and to manage it properly, rather than disappearing somewhere else when one of your golf buddies gets a new CEO post and brings in all his old friends to work with him.I don't know if you're trolling or genuine but then it doesn't matter because there are too many people already behaving exactly in the way you describe above - and those same people need to be brought into line so they do not have the opportunity of running away as quickly as possible with huge bonuses in their pockets while leaving utter decimation behind them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530020</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31534280</id>
	<title>Re:Good job</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268998320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I make closer to that $60k then that $120k with my industry job with a PhD.</p></div></blockquote><p>So $180k in total, even if 2/3 of it comes along later?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I make closer to that $ 60k then that $ 120k with my industry job with a PhD.So $ 180k in total , even if 2/3 of it comes along later ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I make closer to that $60k then that $120k with my industry job with a PhD.So $180k in total, even if 2/3 of it comes along later?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531100</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31532124</id>
	<title>Re:Western and Eastern educations are not equivale</title>
	<author>TapeCutter</author>
	<datestamp>1268926380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>So you're saying that the best problem solvers can't solve the problem of getting into tertiary education?</htmltext>
<tokenext>So you 're saying that the best problem solvers ca n't solve the problem of getting into tertiary education ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So you're saying that the best problem solvers can't solve the problem of getting into tertiary education?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531200</id>
	<title>Re:Good job</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268918640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><blockquote><div><p>If we had made it easy for the smart chinese and indians to stay here</p></div></blockquote><p>Let's see what happens when all these smart people doing the research start figuring out that living and working in Mumbai or Shanghai doesn't offer the same "perks" as living in the Bay Area of California.</p><p>You can't do research 24 hours a day, after all.</p><p>Even with the jobs fleeing the US, young people <i>still</i> want to come here.</p></div><p>"Perks" like affordable living and good schools?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>::snark::</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If we had made it easy for the smart chinese and indians to stay hereLet 's see what happens when all these smart people doing the research start figuring out that living and working in Mumbai or Shanghai does n't offer the same " perks " as living in the Bay Area of California.You ca n't do research 24 hours a day , after all.Even with the jobs fleeing the US , young people still want to come here .
" Perks " like affordable living and good schools ?
: : snark : :</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If we had made it easy for the smart chinese and indians to stay hereLet's see what happens when all these smart people doing the research start figuring out that living and working in Mumbai or Shanghai doesn't offer the same "perks" as living in the Bay Area of California.You can't do research 24 hours a day, after all.Even with the jobs fleeing the US, young people still want to come here.
"Perks" like affordable living and good schools?
::snark::
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530788</id>
	<title>Let a 50 year old Engineer tell you something</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268916060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>By Engineer I mean mechanical, probably one of the last to have had (survived / endured) the old style apprenticeship, which is another point that won't mean anything to those younger than me, but is in fact vastly relevant to overall ability and knowledge.</p><p>For every technology that I have seen, the following is true.</p><p>1,000 guys actually manufacturing a product commercially using "x" technology push the field more in one year than 1,000 guys working in R&amp;D do in 10 years.</p><p>Yeah, there is a bit of chicken and egg there, but the fact is that it is only when you start to make the product commercially, not prototypes, that you really learn about and master the technology.</p><p>The old engineering adage is "you have to build one, to build one".</p><p>A classic example for the US audience is the Saturn V, that was the pinnacle of 20 years of PRODUCTION effort from a team that arguably started with Von Braun's flying prototype bombs.</p><p>Even with CAD / CAM / CAE / CNC / etc, none of which we had back then, I sincerely doubt the US could build one today that actually flew to spec.</p><p>The Japanese basically fucked the British bike industry by starting out on PRODUCTION for a generation, before they were capable of designing anything even equal to what we had, not because they were stupid of rubbish engineers, but because it takes production experience to master anything.</p><p>Then the Japanese basically fucked the British car industry, exactly the same way.</p><p>Television sets? Ditto.</p><p>And the beat goes on.</p><p>You all have it 180 degrees out, worrying about R&amp;D and IP and all that crap being outsourced, when you outsource production you are eating your own seed grain, doom is inevitable.</p><p>The next generation is based on the apprentice of today, and by far the best apprenticeship is one served in a production environment.</p><p>Mod me down as much as you like, I've got karma to burn.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>By Engineer I mean mechanical , probably one of the last to have had ( survived / endured ) the old style apprenticeship , which is another point that wo n't mean anything to those younger than me , but is in fact vastly relevant to overall ability and knowledge.For every technology that I have seen , the following is true.1,000 guys actually manufacturing a product commercially using " x " technology push the field more in one year than 1,000 guys working in R&amp;D do in 10 years.Yeah , there is a bit of chicken and egg there , but the fact is that it is only when you start to make the product commercially , not prototypes , that you really learn about and master the technology.The old engineering adage is " you have to build one , to build one " .A classic example for the US audience is the Saturn V , that was the pinnacle of 20 years of PRODUCTION effort from a team that arguably started with Von Braun 's flying prototype bombs.Even with CAD / CAM / CAE / CNC / etc , none of which we had back then , I sincerely doubt the US could build one today that actually flew to spec.The Japanese basically fucked the British bike industry by starting out on PRODUCTION for a generation , before they were capable of designing anything even equal to what we had , not because they were stupid of rubbish engineers , but because it takes production experience to master anything.Then the Japanese basically fucked the British car industry , exactly the same way.Television sets ?
Ditto.And the beat goes on.You all have it 180 degrees out , worrying about R&amp;D and IP and all that crap being outsourced , when you outsource production you are eating your own seed grain , doom is inevitable.The next generation is based on the apprentice of today , and by far the best apprenticeship is one served in a production environment.Mod me down as much as you like , I 've got karma to burn .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>By Engineer I mean mechanical, probably one of the last to have had (survived / endured) the old style apprenticeship, which is another point that won't mean anything to those younger than me, but is in fact vastly relevant to overall ability and knowledge.For every technology that I have seen, the following is true.1,000 guys actually manufacturing a product commercially using "x" technology push the field more in one year than 1,000 guys working in R&amp;D do in 10 years.Yeah, there is a bit of chicken and egg there, but the fact is that it is only when you start to make the product commercially, not prototypes, that you really learn about and master the technology.The old engineering adage is "you have to build one, to build one".A classic example for the US audience is the Saturn V, that was the pinnacle of 20 years of PRODUCTION effort from a team that arguably started with Von Braun's flying prototype bombs.Even with CAD / CAM / CAE / CNC / etc, none of which we had back then, I sincerely doubt the US could build one today that actually flew to spec.The Japanese basically fucked the British bike industry by starting out on PRODUCTION for a generation, before they were capable of designing anything even equal to what we had, not because they were stupid of rubbish engineers, but because it takes production experience to master anything.Then the Japanese basically fucked the British car industry, exactly the same way.Television sets?
Ditto.And the beat goes on.You all have it 180 degrees out, worrying about R&amp;D and IP and all that crap being outsourced, when you outsource production you are eating your own seed grain, doom is inevitable.The next generation is based on the apprentice of today, and by far the best apprenticeship is one served in a production environment.Mod me down as much as you like, I've got karma to burn.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531570</id>
	<title>Re:War</title>
	<author>ppanon</author>
	<datestamp>1268921160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yep, USA capitalists are a bunch of burger-eating surrender monkeys.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yep , USA capitalists are a bunch of burger-eating surrender monkeys .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yep, USA capitalists are a bunch of burger-eating surrender monkeys.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530010</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530192</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>QuoteMstr</author>
	<datestamp>1268912400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Fortunately instead of a manufacturing based industry, the US will concentrate on enforcing the concept of "intellectual property"</p></div></blockquote><p>But fortunately for the rest of the world, they can laugh at our silly statements of what they "owe" us and get on with their lives. Oh, wait? What's that you say? We spend more on our military than every other nation on earth <b>put together</b>? Oh, well, I'm sure they'll pay up then.</p><p>Come on --- what's left for the US other than the formation of a military-enforced trade hegemony?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Fortunately instead of a manufacturing based industry , the US will concentrate on enforcing the concept of " intellectual property " But fortunately for the rest of the world , they can laugh at our silly statements of what they " owe " us and get on with their lives .
Oh , wait ?
What 's that you say ?
We spend more on our military than every other nation on earth put together ?
Oh , well , I 'm sure they 'll pay up then.Come on --- what 's left for the US other than the formation of a military-enforced trade hegemony ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Fortunately instead of a manufacturing based industry, the US will concentrate on enforcing the concept of "intellectual property"But fortunately for the rest of the world, they can laugh at our silly statements of what they "owe" us and get on with their lives.
Oh, wait?
What's that you say?
We spend more on our military than every other nation on earth put together?
Oh, well, I'm sure they'll pay up then.Come on --- what's left for the US other than the formation of a military-enforced trade hegemony?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529796</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531526</id>
	<title>Re:I wonder what will happen in the long run?</title>
	<author>hackingbear</author>
	<datestamp>1268920920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>And if they do, will they be making pennies on the dollar? Would China even allow that? I'd imagine they'd want their own people to be employed, rather than incoming foreigners.</p> </div><p>Yes you can. There are plenty of foreigners working in China, many having high degrees from famous universities. And I ran into headhunter looking for senior engineers for a famous Chinese internet company. Silicon Valley pay level! But you may not not want to go, because at that salary level, it is considered high income and your Chinese income tax can be as high as 50\% (and no deduction from your mortgage); that's probably 10-15\% higher than federal + CA tax.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>And if they do , will they be making pennies on the dollar ?
Would China even allow that ?
I 'd imagine they 'd want their own people to be employed , rather than incoming foreigners .
Yes you can .
There are plenty of foreigners working in China , many having high degrees from famous universities .
And I ran into headhunter looking for senior engineers for a famous Chinese internet company .
Silicon Valley pay level !
But you may not not want to go , because at that salary level , it is considered high income and your Chinese income tax can be as high as 50 \ % ( and no deduction from your mortgage ) ; that 's probably 10-15 \ % higher than federal + CA tax .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And if they do, will they be making pennies on the dollar?
Would China even allow that?
I'd imagine they'd want their own people to be employed, rather than incoming foreigners.
Yes you can.
There are plenty of foreigners working in China, many having high degrees from famous universities.
And I ran into headhunter looking for senior engineers for a famous Chinese internet company.
Silicon Valley pay level!
But you may not not want to go, because at that salary level, it is considered high income and your Chinese income tax can be as high as 50\% (and no deduction from your mortgage); that's probably 10-15\% higher than federal + CA tax.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529824</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531686</id>
	<title>Re:Exit costs &amp; GFW</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268922360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You do know that American and French intelligence agencies (to name but two) are not above providing illicitly gained business intelligence to domestic corporations?</p><p>The only difference is that China did a really bad job and got caught.</p><p>Or are you saying that stealing technology from foreign companies is OK if you're subtle about it?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You do know that American and French intelligence agencies ( to name but two ) are not above providing illicitly gained business intelligence to domestic corporations ? The only difference is that China did a really bad job and got caught.Or are you saying that stealing technology from foreign companies is OK if you 're subtle about it ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You do know that American and French intelligence agencies (to name but two) are not above providing illicitly gained business intelligence to domestic corporations?The only difference is that China did a really bad job and got caught.Or are you saying that stealing technology from foreign companies is OK if you're subtle about it?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530290</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530696</id>
	<title>Re:Good job</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268915400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>If we had made it easy for the smart chinese and indians to stay here</p></div></blockquote><p>Let's see what happens when all these smart people doing the research start figuring out that living and working in Mumbai or Shanghai doesn't offer the same "perks" as living in the Bay Area of California.</p><p>You can't do research 24 hours a day, after all.</p><p>Even with the jobs fleeing the US, young people <i>still</i> want to come here.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If we had made it easy for the smart chinese and indians to stay hereLet 's see what happens when all these smart people doing the research start figuring out that living and working in Mumbai or Shanghai does n't offer the same " perks " as living in the Bay Area of California.You ca n't do research 24 hours a day , after all.Even with the jobs fleeing the US , young people still want to come here .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If we had made it easy for the smart chinese and indians to stay hereLet's see what happens when all these smart people doing the research start figuring out that living and working in Mumbai or Shanghai doesn't offer the same "perks" as living in the Bay Area of California.You can't do research 24 hours a day, after all.Even with the jobs fleeing the US, young people still want to come here.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529892</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31535450</id>
	<title>Re:This is significant.</title>
	<author>drinkypoo</author>
	<datestamp>1269008160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Solar panels shouldn't be placed on roofs; they should be the roof.</p> </div><p>Well, there's peel-and-stick panels which fit on metal roof segments and with their wiring at the end. All the wiring goes under the top cap on the roof, and they get applied before you put the roof together. So that's already available, though I have no idea who makes it or how much it costs. They say it cuts installation time in half, whatever that means. Probably a total bullshit figure.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Solar panels should n't be placed on roofs ; they should be the roof .
Well , there 's peel-and-stick panels which fit on metal roof segments and with their wiring at the end .
All the wiring goes under the top cap on the roof , and they get applied before you put the roof together .
So that 's already available , though I have no idea who makes it or how much it costs .
They say it cuts installation time in half , whatever that means .
Probably a total bullshit figure .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Solar panels shouldn't be placed on roofs; they should be the roof.
Well, there's peel-and-stick panels which fit on metal roof segments and with their wiring at the end.
All the wiring goes under the top cap on the roof, and they get applied before you put the roof together.
So that's already available, though I have no idea who makes it or how much it costs.
They say it cuts installation time in half, whatever that means.
Probably a total bullshit figure.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530770</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531660</id>
	<title>Re:Western and Eastern educations are not equivale</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268922120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Unfortunately, we are not talking of Indian and US education. We are talking of US educated PhDs in India. They cant get Green cards or H1Bs easily in such a climate - so they go back.</p><p>Lets see - the average number of caucasians in any science or technology PhD program is low - most are asians. So I guess they have the critical skills to ace the US education system without their 'critical skills'.</p><p>So lets see some of the key things you point out:<br>1. Software development fails due to lack of critical thinking amongst Indians - so lets see MSFT projects routinely used to fail when indians were almost rare on msft campus. Cant blame that on Indians. Software projects in general fail quite a bit not because of programming but due to lack of project management skills.</p><p>You cant compare the average programmer who comes here to do crappy ERP consulting or Java programming with 'innovative researchers' here in the US.</p><p>2. Anyways lets see - what does the average Slashdot reader do ? programming for businesses to process orders ? sell stuff on the web ? How many are actually doing anything innovative ?</p><p>Will your CIO miss you if the HTML/JS/java stuff you are doing is done by some other dork in another part of the world ? I dont think so - esp. if it is done at 1/3rd the price and with limited benefits and 6 day work weeks.</p><p>For those of you who are truly 'innovative'  - there is nothing to fear.</p><p>3. 40\% of  NASA/MSFT/GOOG etc.  are asians (chinese + indians + koreans etc.) - now remember these are from the small population of the students who happen to be chinese and indians. So I guess these chinese and indians are not 'critical thinking' challenged.</p><p>4. Superiority complex is unfortunately akin to shooting yourself in the foot. You may think you are the critical thinkers and the innovators - but remember, indians/chinese and most 3rd world people are much hungrier for success. This is the windows vs Apple model. Apple may have been cooler - but Windows takes over by sheer numbers.</p><p>2 billion to 350 million. You would need to be 3-4 times as innovative as the rest of the world to survive<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:) - that is assuming like 800 million of the Chindia population is a complete waste. The reason India and China did not have much to show in patents was cos they cost $3-$4k even in small countries. Now the patents from Indian research labs are piling up!</p><p>Bye bye average American programmer!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Unfortunately , we are not talking of Indian and US education .
We are talking of US educated PhDs in India .
They cant get Green cards or H1Bs easily in such a climate - so they go back.Lets see - the average number of caucasians in any science or technology PhD program is low - most are asians .
So I guess they have the critical skills to ace the US education system without their 'critical skills'.So lets see some of the key things you point out : 1 .
Software development fails due to lack of critical thinking amongst Indians - so lets see MSFT projects routinely used to fail when indians were almost rare on msft campus .
Cant blame that on Indians .
Software projects in general fail quite a bit not because of programming but due to lack of project management skills.You cant compare the average programmer who comes here to do crappy ERP consulting or Java programming with 'innovative researchers ' here in the US.2 .
Anyways lets see - what does the average Slashdot reader do ?
programming for businesses to process orders ?
sell stuff on the web ?
How many are actually doing anything innovative ? Will your CIO miss you if the HTML/JS/java stuff you are doing is done by some other dork in another part of the world ?
I dont think so - esp .
if it is done at 1/3rd the price and with limited benefits and 6 day work weeks.For those of you who are truly 'innovative ' - there is nothing to fear.3 .
40 \ % of NASA/MSFT/GOOG etc .
are asians ( chinese + indians + koreans etc .
) - now remember these are from the small population of the students who happen to be chinese and indians .
So I guess these chinese and indians are not 'critical thinking ' challenged.4 .
Superiority complex is unfortunately akin to shooting yourself in the foot .
You may think you are the critical thinkers and the innovators - but remember , indians/chinese and most 3rd world people are much hungrier for success .
This is the windows vs Apple model .
Apple may have been cooler - but Windows takes over by sheer numbers.2 billion to 350 million .
You would need to be 3-4 times as innovative as the rest of the world to survive : ) - that is assuming like 800 million of the Chindia population is a complete waste .
The reason India and China did not have much to show in patents was cos they cost $ 3- $ 4k even in small countries .
Now the patents from Indian research labs are piling up ! Bye bye average American programmer !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unfortunately, we are not talking of Indian and US education.
We are talking of US educated PhDs in India.
They cant get Green cards or H1Bs easily in such a climate - so they go back.Lets see - the average number of caucasians in any science or technology PhD program is low - most are asians.
So I guess they have the critical skills to ace the US education system without their 'critical skills'.So lets see some of the key things you point out:1.
Software development fails due to lack of critical thinking amongst Indians - so lets see MSFT projects routinely used to fail when indians were almost rare on msft campus.
Cant blame that on Indians.
Software projects in general fail quite a bit not because of programming but due to lack of project management skills.You cant compare the average programmer who comes here to do crappy ERP consulting or Java programming with 'innovative researchers' here in the US.2.
Anyways lets see - what does the average Slashdot reader do ?
programming for businesses to process orders ?
sell stuff on the web ?
How many are actually doing anything innovative ?Will your CIO miss you if the HTML/JS/java stuff you are doing is done by some other dork in another part of the world ?
I dont think so - esp.
if it is done at 1/3rd the price and with limited benefits and 6 day work weeks.For those of you who are truly 'innovative'  - there is nothing to fear.3.
40\% of  NASA/MSFT/GOOG etc.
are asians (chinese + indians + koreans etc.
) - now remember these are from the small population of the students who happen to be chinese and indians.
So I guess these chinese and indians are not 'critical thinking' challenged.4.
Superiority complex is unfortunately akin to shooting yourself in the foot.
You may think you are the critical thinkers and the innovators - but remember, indians/chinese and most 3rd world people are much hungrier for success.
This is the windows vs Apple model.
Apple may have been cooler - but Windows takes over by sheer numbers.2 billion to 350 million.
You would need to be 3-4 times as innovative as the rest of the world to survive :) - that is assuming like 800 million of the Chindia population is a complete waste.
The reason India and China did not have much to show in patents was cos they cost $3-$4k even in small countries.
Now the patents from Indian research labs are piling up!Bye bye average American programmer!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530612</id>
	<title>Another Job bites the dust</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268914920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have been on the receiving end (aka Pink Slip) of off shoring twice. The first time I worked for GENRAD "One of the first FM/AM Radio Manufactures in America" sold off to Taiwan, and again at GE Consumer Industrial moved IT to India, as effect I have had to move to obtain another job.  The off shore effect may save the American Companies money but the effect will be the same as the Electronics, and Textile industries.  NO LONGER a US industry!  We complain about a bad economy and taxes but we are selling off tax payers jobs to China, India, Pakistan, Taiwan, and Vietnam.  Companies can put what ever spin on off shoring, but in the end they will loose control and America will become a welfare state.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have been on the receiving end ( aka Pink Slip ) of off shoring twice .
The first time I worked for GENRAD " One of the first FM/AM Radio Manufactures in America " sold off to Taiwan , and again at GE Consumer Industrial moved IT to India , as effect I have had to move to obtain another job .
The off shore effect may save the American Companies money but the effect will be the same as the Electronics , and Textile industries .
NO LONGER a US industry !
We complain about a bad economy and taxes but we are selling off tax payers jobs to China , India , Pakistan , Taiwan , and Vietnam .
Companies can put what ever spin on off shoring , but in the end they will loose control and America will become a welfare state .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have been on the receiving end (aka Pink Slip) of off shoring twice.
The first time I worked for GENRAD "One of the first FM/AM Radio Manufactures in America" sold off to Taiwan, and again at GE Consumer Industrial moved IT to India, as effect I have had to move to obtain another job.
The off shore effect may save the American Companies money but the effect will be the same as the Electronics, and Textile industries.
NO LONGER a US industry!
We complain about a bad economy and taxes but we are selling off tax payers jobs to China, India, Pakistan, Taiwan, and Vietnam.
Companies can put what ever spin on off shoring, but in the end they will loose control and America will become a welfare state.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530280</id>
	<title>Re:America has something better</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268912880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The parent is the best comment on Slashdot.</p><p>In the 1980s, most of India had just 1 TV channel whereas the metros had 2. We waited for the weekends for a movie, local language on Saturday and national language (Hindi) on Sunday. TV programs actually stopped at night and started in the morning. There were no soap operas in this country which everyone glued their eyes to for 2 hours come 7 PM. There was no public internet. People spent plenty of time time talking with their family and friends, reading, going out on walks, playing cricket outside with others in the colony and worked normal hours without tension.</p><p>Today, you wake up and even before the toothpaste has dissolved in your mouth, you have logged into Facebook. Every person is on an island most of the time. Pretty much all of the stuff above has changed for the worse.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The parent is the best comment on Slashdot.In the 1980s , most of India had just 1 TV channel whereas the metros had 2 .
We waited for the weekends for a movie , local language on Saturday and national language ( Hindi ) on Sunday .
TV programs actually stopped at night and started in the morning .
There were no soap operas in this country which everyone glued their eyes to for 2 hours come 7 PM .
There was no public internet .
People spent plenty of time time talking with their family and friends , reading , going out on walks , playing cricket outside with others in the colony and worked normal hours without tension.Today , you wake up and even before the toothpaste has dissolved in your mouth , you have logged into Facebook .
Every person is on an island most of the time .
Pretty much all of the stuff above has changed for the worse .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The parent is the best comment on Slashdot.In the 1980s, most of India had just 1 TV channel whereas the metros had 2.
We waited for the weekends for a movie, local language on Saturday and national language (Hindi) on Sunday.
TV programs actually stopped at night and started in the morning.
There were no soap operas in this country which everyone glued their eyes to for 2 hours come 7 PM.
There was no public internet.
People spent plenty of time time talking with their family and friends, reading, going out on walks, playing cricket outside with others in the colony and worked normal hours without tension.Today, you wake up and even before the toothpaste has dissolved in your mouth, you have logged into Facebook.
Every person is on an island most of the time.
Pretty much all of the stuff above has changed for the worse.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529838</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530238</id>
	<title>Re:America has something better</title>
	<author>Jaysyn</author>
	<datestamp>1268912700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well at least there is no way to outsource the designing &amp; building of local communications infrastructure.  So my job is safe for a while.  Oh sure, they can do the design over there, but the quality is abysmal &amp; there is no way the tools at the DOT will put up with the language barrier while permitting.  Also, there is no way the customer (a local telco / cable co) will put up with having to constantly resubmit borked permits @ x amount per pop either.  I know for a fact that outsourcing has left such a bad taste in at least one major CATV company that they won't even take bids from Indian contractors anymore.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well at least there is no way to outsource the designing &amp; building of local communications infrastructure .
So my job is safe for a while .
Oh sure , they can do the design over there , but the quality is abysmal &amp; there is no way the tools at the DOT will put up with the language barrier while permitting .
Also , there is no way the customer ( a local telco / cable co ) will put up with having to constantly resubmit borked permits @ x amount per pop either .
I know for a fact that outsourcing has left such a bad taste in at least one major CATV company that they wo n't even take bids from Indian contractors anymore .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well at least there is no way to outsource the designing &amp; building of local communications infrastructure.
So my job is safe for a while.
Oh sure, they can do the design over there, but the quality is abysmal &amp; there is no way the tools at the DOT will put up with the language barrier while permitting.
Also, there is no way the customer (a local telco / cable co) will put up with having to constantly resubmit borked permits @ x amount per pop either.
I know for a fact that outsourcing has left such a bad taste in at least one major CATV company that they won't even take bids from Indian contractors anymore.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529838</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530146</id>
	<title>Civil engineering.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268912160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You can't ship a bridge overseas for repair. Not that you can't ship prefab parts here.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You ca n't ship a bridge overseas for repair .
Not that you ca n't ship prefab parts here .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You can't ship a bridge overseas for repair.
Not that you can't ship prefab parts here.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529824</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529838</id>
	<title>America has something better</title>
	<author>Renderer of Evil</author>
	<datestamp>1268910660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>While China is busy developing technology from the last decade, America is has leapfrogged everyone with the social media revolution. We've got things like Twitter, Facebook, Gowalla, 4Square and hundreds of other innovative services which connect people so they can share their stories and do social media stuff like upload their photos and blog right from their email clients! Location-aware twitter cloud blogging!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...ok, we're fucked.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>While China is busy developing technology from the last decade , America is has leapfrogged everyone with the social media revolution .
We 've got things like Twitter , Facebook , Gowalla , 4Square and hundreds of other innovative services which connect people so they can share their stories and do social media stuff like upload their photos and blog right from their email clients !
Location-aware twitter cloud blogging !
...ok , we 're fucked .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While China is busy developing technology from the last decade, America is has leapfrogged everyone with the social media revolution.
We've got things like Twitter, Facebook, Gowalla, 4Square and hundreds of other innovative services which connect people so they can share their stories and do social media stuff like upload their photos and blog right from their email clients!
Location-aware twitter cloud blogging!
...ok, we're fucked.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31532384</id>
	<title>if you didn't see this coming you're an idiot</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268928540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The elites of industries take risks, they are not interested in supporting the ne'er-do-well welfare cases of society through endless taxation (Microsoft certainly agrees with this concept *wink*).</p><p>They are not interested in a society where crime is not replied firmly with punishment.They are taking enough risks already.</p><p>They are not interested in a system so overladen with middlemen parasites picking their pockets that the risk/reward ratio is just too large.</p><p>etc...</p><p>I don't know if China is necessarily all that, but it does squawk a lot of the right signals.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The elites of industries take risks , they are not interested in supporting the ne'er-do-well welfare cases of society through endless taxation ( Microsoft certainly agrees with this concept * wink * ) .They are not interested in a society where crime is not replied firmly with punishment.They are taking enough risks already.They are not interested in a system so overladen with middlemen parasites picking their pockets that the risk/reward ratio is just too large.etc...I do n't know if China is necessarily all that , but it does squawk a lot of the right signals .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The elites of industries take risks, they are not interested in supporting the ne'er-do-well welfare cases of society through endless taxation (Microsoft certainly agrees with this concept *wink*).They are not interested in a society where crime is not replied firmly with punishment.They are taking enough risks already.They are not interested in a system so overladen with middlemen parasites picking their pockets that the risk/reward ratio is just too large.etc...I don't know if China is necessarily all that, but it does squawk a lot of the right signals.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530290</id>
	<title>Exit costs &amp; GFW</title>
	<author>DNS-and-BIND</author>
	<datestamp>1268912940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>China imposes huge exit costs on business.  It's easy to get in, but you stand to lose a ton to get out.  I think a lot of people make the mistake of thinking China is just another country like France or Burkina Faso.  It's not.  Foreign ownership of anything is restricted, and even if you're properly registered you will always be audited more carefully than any comparable Chinese company.  These guys are going to go in to China, set up these huge research plants, and then be driven out Google-style.  I mean, come on, China broke into google.com and left their fingerprints everywhere and "China rules!" spraypainted all over the windows.  What kind of contempt do you have to have to even do something like that?  To Chinese, foreigners are like women workers during WWII: temporarily useful.</p><p>Oh, and I hope that they enjoy doing their research behind the Great Firewall of China (Golden Shield).  I hear someone saying VPN?  VPNs were blocked from Xinjiang for several months following the riots, so the technical capability to block VPNs is there, to be activated if it is in China's interest to do so.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>China imposes huge exit costs on business .
It 's easy to get in , but you stand to lose a ton to get out .
I think a lot of people make the mistake of thinking China is just another country like France or Burkina Faso .
It 's not .
Foreign ownership of anything is restricted , and even if you 're properly registered you will always be audited more carefully than any comparable Chinese company .
These guys are going to go in to China , set up these huge research plants , and then be driven out Google-style .
I mean , come on , China broke into google.com and left their fingerprints everywhere and " China rules !
" spraypainted all over the windows .
What kind of contempt do you have to have to even do something like that ?
To Chinese , foreigners are like women workers during WWII : temporarily useful.Oh , and I hope that they enjoy doing their research behind the Great Firewall of China ( Golden Shield ) .
I hear someone saying VPN ?
VPNs were blocked from Xinjiang for several months following the riots , so the technical capability to block VPNs is there , to be activated if it is in China 's interest to do so .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>China imposes huge exit costs on business.
It's easy to get in, but you stand to lose a ton to get out.
I think a lot of people make the mistake of thinking China is just another country like France or Burkina Faso.
It's not.
Foreign ownership of anything is restricted, and even if you're properly registered you will always be audited more carefully than any comparable Chinese company.
These guys are going to go in to China, set up these huge research plants, and then be driven out Google-style.
I mean, come on, China broke into google.com and left their fingerprints everywhere and "China rules!
" spraypainted all over the windows.
What kind of contempt do you have to have to even do something like that?
To Chinese, foreigners are like women workers during WWII: temporarily useful.Oh, and I hope that they enjoy doing their research behind the Great Firewall of China (Golden Shield).
I hear someone saying VPN?
VPNs were blocked from Xinjiang for several months following the riots, so the technical capability to block VPNs is there, to be activated if it is in China's interest to do so.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31532748</id>
	<title>We could reverse it, you know...</title>
	<author>ibsteve2u</author>
	<datestamp>1268931720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>All we'd have to do is lock the dollar/yuan exchange rate 7:1; that is, the complete reverse of what China has done in order to guarantee their position as low cost manufacturer.</p><p>We won't, though; too many short-sighted (or uncaring?) Americans getting fat exploiting China's exploitation of America.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>All we 'd have to do is lock the dollar/yuan exchange rate 7 : 1 ; that is , the complete reverse of what China has done in order to guarantee their position as low cost manufacturer.We wo n't , though ; too many short-sighted ( or uncaring ?
) Americans getting fat exploiting China 's exploitation of America .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>All we'd have to do is lock the dollar/yuan exchange rate 7:1; that is, the complete reverse of what China has done in order to guarantee their position as low cost manufacturer.We won't, though; too many short-sighted (or uncaring?
) Americans getting fat exploiting China's exploitation of America.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530050</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531060</id>
	<title>Re:America the new 3rd World</title>
	<author>TheSync</author>
	<datestamp>1268917800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>The only thing the US still maintains a hold on is the Media/Entertainment industry.</i></p><p>A US company designed the iPhone (this is the most profitable part of it), although its parts come from early Asian tigers like Singapore, and its assembly occurs in China.</p><p>And how can we forget Microsoft...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The only thing the US still maintains a hold on is the Media/Entertainment industry.A US company designed the iPhone ( this is the most profitable part of it ) , although its parts come from early Asian tigers like Singapore , and its assembly occurs in China.And how can we forget Microsoft.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The only thing the US still maintains a hold on is the Media/Entertainment industry.A US company designed the iPhone (this is the most profitable part of it), although its parts come from early Asian tigers like Singapore, and its assembly occurs in China.And how can we forget Microsoft...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529808</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531256</id>
	<title>economist</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268918940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I love how economists back in the 90's described the process of outsourcing as moving on to "bigger and better things" , to having an "information economy" where we would do the high tech research and software and yada yada yada. Now you see what's really happening.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I love how economists back in the 90 's described the process of outsourcing as moving on to " bigger and better things " , to having an " information economy " where we would do the high tech research and software and yada yada yada .
Now you see what 's really happening .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I love how economists back in the 90's described the process of outsourcing as moving on to "bigger and better things" , to having an "information economy" where we would do the high tech research and software and yada yada yada.
Now you see what's really happening.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530050</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268911620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yup - and so ends another empire.</p><p>Anyone who hasn't seen this coming to the US for 20 years is a completely idiot. I keep telling people that globalization leads to a flatter market. The problem is that even distribution of wealth means that the 3rd world improves a little and the 1st world declines a LOT.</p><p>There's plenty of good quotes about it - this is hardly new. It's been going on for at least a hundred years (and 20 or more right here in the US).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yup - and so ends another empire.Anyone who has n't seen this coming to the US for 20 years is a completely idiot .
I keep telling people that globalization leads to a flatter market .
The problem is that even distribution of wealth means that the 3rd world improves a little and the 1st world declines a LOT.There 's plenty of good quotes about it - this is hardly new .
It 's been going on for at least a hundred years ( and 20 or more right here in the US ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yup - and so ends another empire.Anyone who hasn't seen this coming to the US for 20 years is a completely idiot.
I keep telling people that globalization leads to a flatter market.
The problem is that even distribution of wealth means that the 3rd world improves a little and the 1st world declines a LOT.There's plenty of good quotes about it - this is hardly new.
It's been going on for at least a hundred years (and 20 or more right here in the US).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529796</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31537744</id>
	<title>Re:This is significant.</title>
	<author>jonatha</author>
	<datestamp>1269014280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>it's all about installed cost per KWh per year.  He shows charts of where the cost has to be to compete with other energy sources without subsidies.  (This changes with latitude; as you get closer to the equator, it gets better. Spain is competitive now.) </p></div><p>Madrid is at roughly the same latitude as New York City, so much of the US should also be "competitive."

Yet somehow I don't see too many solar farms around here....</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>it 's all about installed cost per KWh per year .
He shows charts of where the cost has to be to compete with other energy sources without subsidies .
( This changes with latitude ; as you get closer to the equator , it gets better .
Spain is competitive now .
) Madrid is at roughly the same latitude as New York City , so much of the US should also be " competitive .
" Yet somehow I do n't see too many solar farms around here... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>it's all about installed cost per KWh per year.
He shows charts of where the cost has to be to compete with other energy sources without subsidies.
(This changes with latitude; as you get closer to the equator, it gets better.
Spain is competitive now.
) Madrid is at roughly the same latitude as New York City, so much of the US should also be "competitive.
"

Yet somehow I don't see too many solar farms around here....
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530770</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31533022</id>
	<title>Re:I wonder what will happen in the long run?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268934720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>On a positive (?) note, when everything gets outsourced eventually, and our raw materials are summarily depleted, there will no longer be anything of value here for anyone to take from us, and we can then be relegated to the same level as the Easter Islanders were just prior to the arrival of the Europeans.</p><p>What, they resorted to cannibalism to feed themselves, you say? And something like that simply can't happen here?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>On a positive ( ?
) note , when everything gets outsourced eventually , and our raw materials are summarily depleted , there will no longer be anything of value here for anyone to take from us , and we can then be relegated to the same level as the Easter Islanders were just prior to the arrival of the Europeans.What , they resorted to cannibalism to feed themselves , you say ?
And something like that simply ca n't happen here ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On a positive (?
) note, when everything gets outsourced eventually, and our raw materials are summarily depleted, there will no longer be anything of value here for anyone to take from us, and we can then be relegated to the same level as the Easter Islanders were just prior to the arrival of the Europeans.What, they resorted to cannibalism to feed themselves, you say?
And something like that simply can't happen here?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529824</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31532006</id>
	<title>Re:Good job</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268925240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Not sure living in Shangai doesn't offer the same "perks" as living in the Bay Area. I don't live in either (European), but having traveled to both Asia an America, I would choose to live in Asia as a expat, not even thinking twice.</p><p>Especially if young and not married....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Not sure living in Shangai does n't offer the same " perks " as living in the Bay Area .
I do n't live in either ( European ) , but having traveled to both Asia an America , I would choose to live in Asia as a expat , not even thinking twice.Especially if young and not married... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not sure living in Shangai doesn't offer the same "perks" as living in the Bay Area.
I don't live in either (European), but having traveled to both Asia an America, I would choose to live in Asia as a expat, not even thinking twice.Especially if young and not married....</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31534968</id>
	<title>Re:Western and Eastern educations are not equivale</title>
	<author>NuShrike</author>
	<datestamp>1269006060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Case in point,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.NETCF is developed in India and it resulted in a terrible ride so far in Windows Mobile.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Case in point , .NETCF is developed in India and it resulted in a terrible ride so far in Windows Mobile .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Case in point, .NETCF is developed in India and it resulted in a terrible ride so far in Windows Mobile.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31533228</id>
	<title>Re:Western and Eastern educations are not equivale</title>
	<author>Moof123</author>
	<datestamp>1268937000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I can't disagree with the characterization.  However I've very painfully seen and felt what the american educated management structure can do to the most amazing, talented, and hard working engineers.  It is not pretty.</p><p>We as a country have dropped the ball, and have rested on our laurels for too long.  The jig is largely up.  The talented refugees are doomed to a life of migrant labor, wandering from one tech company to the next, eking out a living for a few years before that outfit is either shipped overseas or driven into the ground by round after round of buzzword bingo spewing MBA jerk wads.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I ca n't disagree with the characterization .
However I 've very painfully seen and felt what the american educated management structure can do to the most amazing , talented , and hard working engineers .
It is not pretty.We as a country have dropped the ball , and have rested on our laurels for too long .
The jig is largely up .
The talented refugees are doomed to a life of migrant labor , wandering from one tech company to the next , eking out a living for a few years before that outfit is either shipped overseas or driven into the ground by round after round of buzzword bingo spewing MBA jerk wads .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can't disagree with the characterization.
However I've very painfully seen and felt what the american educated management structure can do to the most amazing, talented, and hard working engineers.
It is not pretty.We as a country have dropped the ball, and have rested on our laurels for too long.
The jig is largely up.
The talented refugees are doomed to a life of migrant labor, wandering from one tech company to the next, eking out a living for a few years before that outfit is either shipped overseas or driven into the ground by round after round of buzzword bingo spewing MBA jerk wads.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31532264</id>
	<title>Re:Good job</title>
	<author>TheWizardTim</author>
	<datestamp>1268927460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What amount do the corporations actually PAY? Did you know that it's close to 0? <a href="http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/study-tallies-corporations-not-paying-income-tax/" title="nytimes.com">http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/study-tallies-corporations-not-paying-income-tax/</a> [nytimes.com] Yes, we have one of the highest rates, but that amount is not actually paid.</p><p>I say, instead of cutting corporate taxes, raise them, and use the money to teach people new skills. Free college for every American paid for by the corporations that will higher you after you get out.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What amount do the corporations actually PAY ?
Did you know that it 's close to 0 ?
http : //dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/study-tallies-corporations-not-paying-income-tax/ [ nytimes.com ] Yes , we have one of the highest rates , but that amount is not actually paid.I say , instead of cutting corporate taxes , raise them , and use the money to teach people new skills .
Free college for every American paid for by the corporations that will higher you after you get out .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What amount do the corporations actually PAY?
Did you know that it's close to 0?
http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/study-tallies-corporations-not-paying-income-tax/ [nytimes.com] Yes, we have one of the highest rates, but that amount is not actually paid.I say, instead of cutting corporate taxes, raise them, and use the money to teach people new skills.
Free college for every American paid for by the corporations that will higher you after you get out.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530606</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31534794</id>
	<title>But... they get the job done</title>
	<author>demiurg</author>
	<datestamp>1269004440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Maybe you are right. But in the end, they get the job done... and cheap.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe you are right .
But in the end , they get the job done... and cheap .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe you are right.
But in the end, they get the job done... and cheap.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31532082</id>
	<title>Re:Exit costs &amp; GFW</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268926020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't forget the simple fact that China has been alleged to hold corporate officers who are present there on charges, until they give up information.  Having a van nearby ready to turn a corporate executive into component organs to sell for $100,000 on the market tends to get people to give up even the most guarded of corporate secrets.</p><p>China is ready, willing, and able to be as brutal as they choose to get what they want.  This something the West fails to understand.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't forget the simple fact that China has been alleged to hold corporate officers who are present there on charges , until they give up information .
Having a van nearby ready to turn a corporate executive into component organs to sell for $ 100,000 on the market tends to get people to give up even the most guarded of corporate secrets.China is ready , willing , and able to be as brutal as they choose to get what they want .
This something the West fails to understand .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't forget the simple fact that China has been alleged to hold corporate officers who are present there on charges, until they give up information.
Having a van nearby ready to turn a corporate executive into component organs to sell for $100,000 on the market tends to get people to give up even the most guarded of corporate secrets.China is ready, willing, and able to be as brutal as they choose to get what they want.
This something the West fails to understand.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530290</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530184</id>
	<title>Re:Good news if it results in less regulation</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268912340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wait, wait, wait. How is the free market winning a great thing in and of itself? The only way that is a great thing is if people benefit. You are asking people to give up all benefit, and calling that a win. Your self interest is pretty damn obvious here.</p><p>Your post in a nutshell: "You lazy, greedy bums, do more for me for less or I'm moving to China!" Sounds like YOU are the one who needs some competition. I can't wait until we start outsourcing managers and CEOs and people like you get shown that you are not, in fact, special and unique snowflakes. There's a million guys in China who can do a manager's job ten times better than you, for a tenth the pay.</p><p>As for me, I'm going to use whatever tools I have at hand, including political and social tools, to promote my own self interests. If the free market won't help me, fuck the free market. I'm in it for me, not the Free Market. All the parasites who want to make a buck off of me can go hang, you aren't as special, you aren't as smart, and you aren't as talented as you think you are.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Wait , wait , wait .
How is the free market winning a great thing in and of itself ?
The only way that is a great thing is if people benefit .
You are asking people to give up all benefit , and calling that a win .
Your self interest is pretty damn obvious here.Your post in a nutshell : " You lazy , greedy bums , do more for me for less or I 'm moving to China !
" Sounds like YOU are the one who needs some competition .
I ca n't wait until we start outsourcing managers and CEOs and people like you get shown that you are not , in fact , special and unique snowflakes .
There 's a million guys in China who can do a manager 's job ten times better than you , for a tenth the pay.As for me , I 'm going to use whatever tools I have at hand , including political and social tools , to promote my own self interests .
If the free market wo n't help me , fuck the free market .
I 'm in it for me , not the Free Market .
All the parasites who want to make a buck off of me can go hang , you are n't as special , you are n't as smart , and you are n't as talented as you think you are .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wait, wait, wait.
How is the free market winning a great thing in and of itself?
The only way that is a great thing is if people benefit.
You are asking people to give up all benefit, and calling that a win.
Your self interest is pretty damn obvious here.Your post in a nutshell: "You lazy, greedy bums, do more for me for less or I'm moving to China!
" Sounds like YOU are the one who needs some competition.
I can't wait until we start outsourcing managers and CEOs and people like you get shown that you are not, in fact, special and unique snowflakes.
There's a million guys in China who can do a manager's job ten times better than you, for a tenth the pay.As for me, I'm going to use whatever tools I have at hand, including political and social tools, to promote my own self interests.
If the free market won't help me, fuck the free market.
I'm in it for me, not the Free Market.
All the parasites who want to make a buck off of me can go hang, you aren't as special, you aren't as smart, and you aren't as talented as you think you are.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530020</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31534296</id>
	<title>Re:Western and Eastern educations are not equivale</title>
	<author>tyrione</author>
	<datestamp>1268998500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Unfortunately, we are not talking of Indian and US education. We are talking of US educated PhDs in India. They cant get Green cards or H1Bs easily in such a climate - so they go back.</p><p>Lets see - the average number of caucasians in any science or technology PhD program is low - most are asians. So I guess they have the critical skills to ace the US education system without their 'critical skills'.</p><p>So lets see some of the key things you point out:
1. Software development fails due to lack of critical thinking amongst Indians - so lets see MSFT projects routinely used to fail when indians were almost rare on msft campus. Cant blame that on Indians. Software projects in general fail quite a bit not because of programming but due to lack of project management skills.</p><p>You cant compare the average programmer who comes here to do crappy ERP consulting or Java programming with 'innovative researchers' here in the US.</p><p>2. Anyways lets see - what does the average Slashdot reader do ? programming for businesses to process orders ? sell stuff on the web ? How many are actually doing anything innovative ?</p><p>Will your CIO miss you if the HTML/JS/java stuff you are doing is done by some other dork in another part of the world ? I dont think so - esp. if it is done at 1/3rd the price and with limited benefits and 6 day work weeks.</p><p>For those of you who are truly 'innovative'  - there is nothing to fear.</p><p>3. 40\% of  NASA/MSFT/GOOG etc.  are asians (chinese + indians + koreans etc.) - now remember these are from the small population of the students who happen to be chinese and indians. So I guess these chinese and indians are not 'critical thinking' challenged.</p><p>4. Superiority complex is unfortunately akin to shooting yourself in the foot. You may think you are the critical thinkers and the innovators - but remember, indians/chinese and most 3rd world people are much hungrier for success. This is the windows vs Apple model. Apple may have been cooler - but Windows takes over by sheer numbers.</p><p>2 billion to 350 million. You would need to be 3-4 times as innovative as the rest of the world to survive<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:) - that is assuming like 800 million of the Chindia population is a complete waste. The reason India and China did not have much to show in patents was cos they cost $3-$4k even in small countries. Now the patents from Indian research labs are piling up!</p><p>Bye bye average American programmer!</p></div><p>
Take a small dose of reality between the differing cultures. It's called Peer Pressure. In the United States it is highly frowned upon one becoming the ``professional student'' and best to get your degree then go to work and have the corporation pay for your advanced education. Unfortunately, most corporations have stopped that practice and want you to have that advanced education beforehand. If US Families would encourage their kids to get advanced degrees and cultivate this like we once did, we wouldn't have this perceived brain drain.</p><p>More importantly, what is with the Computer Science analogies. It's my second field, but it's not the field this article is centered around. The field(s) are Material Science Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Mechanical Engineering, Chemistry and Physics.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Unfortunately , we are not talking of Indian and US education .
We are talking of US educated PhDs in India .
They cant get Green cards or H1Bs easily in such a climate - so they go back.Lets see - the average number of caucasians in any science or technology PhD program is low - most are asians .
So I guess they have the critical skills to ace the US education system without their 'critical skills'.So lets see some of the key things you point out : 1 .
Software development fails due to lack of critical thinking amongst Indians - so lets see MSFT projects routinely used to fail when indians were almost rare on msft campus .
Cant blame that on Indians .
Software projects in general fail quite a bit not because of programming but due to lack of project management skills.You cant compare the average programmer who comes here to do crappy ERP consulting or Java programming with 'innovative researchers ' here in the US.2 .
Anyways lets see - what does the average Slashdot reader do ?
programming for businesses to process orders ?
sell stuff on the web ?
How many are actually doing anything innovative ? Will your CIO miss you if the HTML/JS/java stuff you are doing is done by some other dork in another part of the world ?
I dont think so - esp .
if it is done at 1/3rd the price and with limited benefits and 6 day work weeks.For those of you who are truly 'innovative ' - there is nothing to fear.3 .
40 \ % of NASA/MSFT/GOOG etc .
are asians ( chinese + indians + koreans etc .
) - now remember these are from the small population of the students who happen to be chinese and indians .
So I guess these chinese and indians are not 'critical thinking ' challenged.4 .
Superiority complex is unfortunately akin to shooting yourself in the foot .
You may think you are the critical thinkers and the innovators - but remember , indians/chinese and most 3rd world people are much hungrier for success .
This is the windows vs Apple model .
Apple may have been cooler - but Windows takes over by sheer numbers.2 billion to 350 million .
You would need to be 3-4 times as innovative as the rest of the world to survive : ) - that is assuming like 800 million of the Chindia population is a complete waste .
The reason India and China did not have much to show in patents was cos they cost $ 3- $ 4k even in small countries .
Now the patents from Indian research labs are piling up ! Bye bye average American programmer !
Take a small dose of reality between the differing cultures .
It 's called Peer Pressure .
In the United States it is highly frowned upon one becoming the ` ` professional student' ' and best to get your degree then go to work and have the corporation pay for your advanced education .
Unfortunately , most corporations have stopped that practice and want you to have that advanced education beforehand .
If US Families would encourage their kids to get advanced degrees and cultivate this like we once did , we would n't have this perceived brain drain.More importantly , what is with the Computer Science analogies .
It 's my second field , but it 's not the field this article is centered around .
The field ( s ) are Material Science Engineering , Electrical Engineering , Mechanical Engineering , Chemistry and Physics .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unfortunately, we are not talking of Indian and US education.
We are talking of US educated PhDs in India.
They cant get Green cards or H1Bs easily in such a climate - so they go back.Lets see - the average number of caucasians in any science or technology PhD program is low - most are asians.
So I guess they have the critical skills to ace the US education system without their 'critical skills'.So lets see some of the key things you point out:
1.
Software development fails due to lack of critical thinking amongst Indians - so lets see MSFT projects routinely used to fail when indians were almost rare on msft campus.
Cant blame that on Indians.
Software projects in general fail quite a bit not because of programming but due to lack of project management skills.You cant compare the average programmer who comes here to do crappy ERP consulting or Java programming with 'innovative researchers' here in the US.2.
Anyways lets see - what does the average Slashdot reader do ?
programming for businesses to process orders ?
sell stuff on the web ?
How many are actually doing anything innovative ?Will your CIO miss you if the HTML/JS/java stuff you are doing is done by some other dork in another part of the world ?
I dont think so - esp.
if it is done at 1/3rd the price and with limited benefits and 6 day work weeks.For those of you who are truly 'innovative'  - there is nothing to fear.3.
40\% of  NASA/MSFT/GOOG etc.
are asians (chinese + indians + koreans etc.
) - now remember these are from the small population of the students who happen to be chinese and indians.
So I guess these chinese and indians are not 'critical thinking' challenged.4.
Superiority complex is unfortunately akin to shooting yourself in the foot.
You may think you are the critical thinkers and the innovators - but remember, indians/chinese and most 3rd world people are much hungrier for success.
This is the windows vs Apple model.
Apple may have been cooler - but Windows takes over by sheer numbers.2 billion to 350 million.
You would need to be 3-4 times as innovative as the rest of the world to survive :) - that is assuming like 800 million of the Chindia population is a complete waste.
The reason India and China did not have much to show in patents was cos they cost $3-$4k even in small countries.
Now the patents from Indian research labs are piling up!Bye bye average American programmer!
Take a small dose of reality between the differing cultures.
It's called Peer Pressure.
In the United States it is highly frowned upon one becoming the ``professional student'' and best to get your degree then go to work and have the corporation pay for your advanced education.
Unfortunately, most corporations have stopped that practice and want you to have that advanced education beforehand.
If US Families would encourage their kids to get advanced degrees and cultivate this like we once did, we wouldn't have this perceived brain drain.More importantly, what is with the Computer Science analogies.
It's my second field, but it's not the field this article is centered around.
The field(s) are Material Science Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Mechanical Engineering, Chemistry and Physics.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531660</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531322</id>
	<title>Re:America the new 3rd World</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268919480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Wake up America otherwise we will go gently into that good night.</p></div><p>I woke up a while back, but have decided we are witnessing the most humane solution to the blight that is my modern citizenry.  I need to get back to bed now... saving up my energy for all the spinning I am going to be doing in the grave.</p><p>Farewell,<br>America</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Wake up America otherwise we will go gently into that good night.I woke up a while back , but have decided we are witnessing the most humane solution to the blight that is my modern citizenry .
I need to get back to bed now... saving up my energy for all the spinning I am going to be doing in the grave.Farewell,America</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wake up America otherwise we will go gently into that good night.I woke up a while back, but have decided we are witnessing the most humane solution to the blight that is my modern citizenry.
I need to get back to bed now... saving up my energy for all the spinning I am going to be doing in the grave.Farewell,America
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529808</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530526</id>
	<title>Re:Good news if it results in less regulation</title>
	<author>modmans2ndcoming</author>
	<datestamp>1268914500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>perhaps universities should charge less for an education then?</p><p>You expect someone to get a degree that cost them 30-50K or more and work for 25K a year?</p><p>you are nuts if you think that is fair.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>perhaps universities should charge less for an education then ? You expect someone to get a degree that cost them 30-50K or more and work for 25K a year ? you are nuts if you think that is fair .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>perhaps universities should charge less for an education then?You expect someone to get a degree that cost them 30-50K or more and work for 25K a year?you are nuts if you think that is fair.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530020</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531346</id>
	<title>Re:I wonder what will happen in the long run?</title>
	<author>roman\_mir</author>
	<datestamp>1268919720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I wonder what the ultimate result of this will be. I know that the US will always need mechanics, plumbers, electricians, retail clerks, warehouse people, office workers, etc, but none of these jobs pay very well</p> </div><p>  -  your analysis is lacking the larger view.</p><p>I mean if that was really a question, here is how it goes: service sector does not create wealth in the sense that jobs in the service sector do not produce anything, that changes the trade balance of the country.  Translation: service sector jobs do not produce anything that can be exchanged with foreign economies, it is nothing that foreign economies can use.</p><p>From this perspective, everything should become a little clearer, shouldn't it?  Service sector jobs do not increase the value of the currency that is exchanged with other countries.  When US prints its dollar and then foreign countries buy the dollar, what can they exchange it for?  The only thing that is so far globally uses the dollar as the currency of exchange is oil.  That happens for various reasons, probably the most valid reason at this point is the giant army standing behind the dollar, because it is certainly not anything of any value that the US can back the dollar with.  It is not gold, it is not electronics, it is not cars, it is not new energy equipment, nothing that is produced in the States, except for weapons probably, can truly back the dollar up.</p><p>What you are observing with the economic collapse, which obviously not a recent invention, it was long in the making, for decades really, is that now the corporations are global, the politicians are bought, and corporations together with the politicians are looting a disaster area.</p><p>Remember the hurricane Catrina and some people looting food stores and other stores?  Well, that happens when everything collapses, you have some looters.  It's the same thing, only looters are much more evil than 'Tyron with some soggy twitters' (<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOWe4-KXqMM" title="youtube.com">that's not mine, that's from a Maher's show</a> [youtube.com]).  You see, your looters now are making away, out of the country with not millions, not billions, with hundreds of billions and even with trillions of these greenbacks, and they have moved the manufacturing away, they have moved everything of value away, they will be fine and the rest of the US population will suck it, right?</p><p>This has started a long long time ago, when the Fed was created and was allowed to 'issue' new money, whether it's dollars or treasury bills, any money at all that they print and distribute at almost no cost to large preferred corporations in return for political donations, contributions, so that the same people stay in power.  This is corruption to the maximum.  They have created wars under false pretenses, they have removed governments and installed banana republics, they have removed democratic governments and installed archaic despotic demonic rulers in many parts of the world.  They have pulled a fast one on many people, including the US citizens, you know, 'the consumers'.  They have rewritten the books on economics to say that 'consumption' is the base of economy, when in fact it is PRODUCTION.  You have no production base left, forget about whatever the remaining stuff you are still producing.  Texas government is changing what goes into your text-books, it will affect the rest of the country.  You have no education system that is worth mentioning, no savings, everything is on credit and the credit is going to come to an abrupt ending.</p><p>China will have to stop giving you the money, it is almost at the point, where Chinese remove the artificial ratio set between their currency and the US dollar.  This will be removed, reluctantly, because the Chinese own many dollars after all, in greenbacks, in treasuries.  Well, that's too bad for them, but it is only delaying the inevitable, when they let go of the exchange rate and it will move to its market value and Oil will no longer trade in the USD.</p><p>What will happen to the US?  It will turn into what USSR used to be, only USSR was created from an idea, you will move that violently and by a huge misunderstanding.  Your government is showing no understanding of economics but also it is not willing to look beyond the next election, so it is doomed to the same mistakes.</p><p>Price controls, exchange controls, iron curtain on the border that will prevent people from leaving and moving away their remaining capital, the 'middle class' anyway, the really rich ones have already moved their stuff out.  Price controls = shortages = hyper inflation = some sort of government take over the food supplies = military command, because you cannot take the food away from farmers without paying them the real value and they will not want to sell at government regulated and controlled prices.  Exchange controls, because nobody will be allowed to own real money anymore, they took gold away from people in the last century at least once, right?  They'll do it again, and then it will be illegal to posses such items of real value.  The government does not know how to do this any better, so they will do it military style, not with any spark of intelligence but by force, because after all, they still want their power to remain in their hands, just like always.</p><p>I think in case of the USA there could be a real civil unrest though, too many weapons around, there will be a civil war I think, but who knows.  I think we'll see this come to fruition before 2020.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I wonder what the ultimate result of this will be .
I know that the US will always need mechanics , plumbers , electricians , retail clerks , warehouse people , office workers , etc , but none of these jobs pay very well - your analysis is lacking the larger view.I mean if that was really a question , here is how it goes : service sector does not create wealth in the sense that jobs in the service sector do not produce anything , that changes the trade balance of the country .
Translation : service sector jobs do not produce anything that can be exchanged with foreign economies , it is nothing that foreign economies can use.From this perspective , everything should become a little clearer , should n't it ?
Service sector jobs do not increase the value of the currency that is exchanged with other countries .
When US prints its dollar and then foreign countries buy the dollar , what can they exchange it for ?
The only thing that is so far globally uses the dollar as the currency of exchange is oil .
That happens for various reasons , probably the most valid reason at this point is the giant army standing behind the dollar , because it is certainly not anything of any value that the US can back the dollar with .
It is not gold , it is not electronics , it is not cars , it is not new energy equipment , nothing that is produced in the States , except for weapons probably , can truly back the dollar up.What you are observing with the economic collapse , which obviously not a recent invention , it was long in the making , for decades really , is that now the corporations are global , the politicians are bought , and corporations together with the politicians are looting a disaster area.Remember the hurricane Catrina and some people looting food stores and other stores ?
Well , that happens when everything collapses , you have some looters .
It 's the same thing , only looters are much more evil than 'Tyron with some soggy twitters ' ( that 's not mine , that 's from a Maher 's show [ youtube.com ] ) .
You see , your looters now are making away , out of the country with not millions , not billions , with hundreds of billions and even with trillions of these greenbacks , and they have moved the manufacturing away , they have moved everything of value away , they will be fine and the rest of the US population will suck it , right ? This has started a long long time ago , when the Fed was created and was allowed to 'issue ' new money , whether it 's dollars or treasury bills , any money at all that they print and distribute at almost no cost to large preferred corporations in return for political donations , contributions , so that the same people stay in power .
This is corruption to the maximum .
They have created wars under false pretenses , they have removed governments and installed banana republics , they have removed democratic governments and installed archaic despotic demonic rulers in many parts of the world .
They have pulled a fast one on many people , including the US citizens , you know , 'the consumers' .
They have rewritten the books on economics to say that 'consumption ' is the base of economy , when in fact it is PRODUCTION .
You have no production base left , forget about whatever the remaining stuff you are still producing .
Texas government is changing what goes into your text-books , it will affect the rest of the country .
You have no education system that is worth mentioning , no savings , everything is on credit and the credit is going to come to an abrupt ending.China will have to stop giving you the money , it is almost at the point , where Chinese remove the artificial ratio set between their currency and the US dollar .
This will be removed , reluctantly , because the Chinese own many dollars after all , in greenbacks , in treasuries .
Well , that 's too bad for them , but it is only delaying the inevitable , when they let go of the exchange rate and it will move to its market value and Oil will no longer trade in the USD.What will happen to the US ?
It will turn into what USSR used to be , only USSR was created from an idea , you will move that violently and by a huge misunderstanding .
Your government is showing no understanding of economics but also it is not willing to look beyond the next election , so it is doomed to the same mistakes.Price controls , exchange controls , iron curtain on the border that will prevent people from leaving and moving away their remaining capital , the 'middle class ' anyway , the really rich ones have already moved their stuff out .
Price controls = shortages = hyper inflation = some sort of government take over the food supplies = military command , because you can not take the food away from farmers without paying them the real value and they will not want to sell at government regulated and controlled prices .
Exchange controls , because nobody will be allowed to own real money anymore , they took gold away from people in the last century at least once , right ?
They 'll do it again , and then it will be illegal to posses such items of real value .
The government does not know how to do this any better , so they will do it military style , not with any spark of intelligence but by force , because after all , they still want their power to remain in their hands , just like always.I think in case of the USA there could be a real civil unrest though , too many weapons around , there will be a civil war I think , but who knows .
I think we 'll see this come to fruition before 2020 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I wonder what the ultimate result of this will be.
I know that the US will always need mechanics, plumbers, electricians, retail clerks, warehouse people, office workers, etc, but none of these jobs pay very well   -  your analysis is lacking the larger view.I mean if that was really a question, here is how it goes: service sector does not create wealth in the sense that jobs in the service sector do not produce anything, that changes the trade balance of the country.
Translation: service sector jobs do not produce anything that can be exchanged with foreign economies, it is nothing that foreign economies can use.From this perspective, everything should become a little clearer, shouldn't it?
Service sector jobs do not increase the value of the currency that is exchanged with other countries.
When US prints its dollar and then foreign countries buy the dollar, what can they exchange it for?
The only thing that is so far globally uses the dollar as the currency of exchange is oil.
That happens for various reasons, probably the most valid reason at this point is the giant army standing behind the dollar, because it is certainly not anything of any value that the US can back the dollar with.
It is not gold, it is not electronics, it is not cars, it is not new energy equipment, nothing that is produced in the States, except for weapons probably, can truly back the dollar up.What you are observing with the economic collapse, which obviously not a recent invention, it was long in the making, for decades really, is that now the corporations are global, the politicians are bought, and corporations together with the politicians are looting a disaster area.Remember the hurricane Catrina and some people looting food stores and other stores?
Well, that happens when everything collapses, you have some looters.
It's the same thing, only looters are much more evil than 'Tyron with some soggy twitters' (that's not mine, that's from a Maher's show [youtube.com]).
You see, your looters now are making away, out of the country with not millions, not billions, with hundreds of billions and even with trillions of these greenbacks, and they have moved the manufacturing away, they have moved everything of value away, they will be fine and the rest of the US population will suck it, right?This has started a long long time ago, when the Fed was created and was allowed to 'issue' new money, whether it's dollars or treasury bills, any money at all that they print and distribute at almost no cost to large preferred corporations in return for political donations, contributions, so that the same people stay in power.
This is corruption to the maximum.
They have created wars under false pretenses, they have removed governments and installed banana republics, they have removed democratic governments and installed archaic despotic demonic rulers in many parts of the world.
They have pulled a fast one on many people, including the US citizens, you know, 'the consumers'.
They have rewritten the books on economics to say that 'consumption' is the base of economy, when in fact it is PRODUCTION.
You have no production base left, forget about whatever the remaining stuff you are still producing.
Texas government is changing what goes into your text-books, it will affect the rest of the country.
You have no education system that is worth mentioning, no savings, everything is on credit and the credit is going to come to an abrupt ending.China will have to stop giving you the money, it is almost at the point, where Chinese remove the artificial ratio set between their currency and the US dollar.
This will be removed, reluctantly, because the Chinese own many dollars after all, in greenbacks, in treasuries.
Well, that's too bad for them, but it is only delaying the inevitable, when they let go of the exchange rate and it will move to its market value and Oil will no longer trade in the USD.What will happen to the US?
It will turn into what USSR used to be, only USSR was created from an idea, you will move that violently and by a huge misunderstanding.
Your government is showing no understanding of economics but also it is not willing to look beyond the next election, so it is doomed to the same mistakes.Price controls, exchange controls, iron curtain on the border that will prevent people from leaving and moving away their remaining capital, the 'middle class' anyway, the really rich ones have already moved their stuff out.
Price controls = shortages = hyper inflation = some sort of government take over the food supplies = military command, because you cannot take the food away from farmers without paying them the real value and they will not want to sell at government regulated and controlled prices.
Exchange controls, because nobody will be allowed to own real money anymore, they took gold away from people in the last century at least once, right?
They'll do it again, and then it will be illegal to posses such items of real value.
The government does not know how to do this any better, so they will do it military style, not with any spark of intelligence but by force, because after all, they still want their power to remain in their hands, just like always.I think in case of the USA there could be a real civil unrest though, too many weapons around, there will be a civil war I think, but who knows.
I think we'll see this come to fruition before 2020.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529824</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530218</id>
	<title>Re: High-Tech Research Moving From US To China</title>
	<author>troll -1</author>
	<datestamp>1268912580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I wish they'd take Viacom with them.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I wish they 'd take Viacom with them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I wish they'd take Viacom with them.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31532520</id>
	<title>Re:Western and Eastern educations are not equivale</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268929620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The two countries the above poster implies are full of dumb heathens of inferior race have civilian nuclear power programs twenty or thirty years ahead of what Westinghouse etc in the USA can do, and they did it with less cash.</p></div><p>I would dispute that the Indians are really that far ahead in civilian nuclear power, but I mainly wanted to point out that Westinghouse Electric Company (the guys who make the nuclear reactors) has been a Japanese company since 2006.  It's owned by Toshiba.</p><p>That's globalization for ya!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The two countries the above poster implies are full of dumb heathens of inferior race have civilian nuclear power programs twenty or thirty years ahead of what Westinghouse etc in the USA can do , and they did it with less cash.I would dispute that the Indians are really that far ahead in civilian nuclear power , but I mainly wanted to point out that Westinghouse Electric Company ( the guys who make the nuclear reactors ) has been a Japanese company since 2006 .
It 's owned by Toshiba.That 's globalization for ya !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The two countries the above poster implies are full of dumb heathens of inferior race have civilian nuclear power programs twenty or thirty years ahead of what Westinghouse etc in the USA can do, and they did it with less cash.I would dispute that the Indians are really that far ahead in civilian nuclear power, but I mainly wanted to point out that Westinghouse Electric Company (the guys who make the nuclear reactors) has been a Japanese company since 2006.
It's owned by Toshiba.That's globalization for ya!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531664</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531356</id>
	<title>Re:Good job</title>
	<author>cdrguru</author>
	<datestamp>1268919780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>High-skill people don't have that many immigration problems.  There are H1B problems, so if someone wants to come here temporarily that is a different issue entirely.  Especially if the company wants some people, and the people are only interested in being sponsored.</p><p>The biggest difference however is labor costs.  Not that long ago we were working with a Chinese manufacturer of consumer electronic stuff.  Our engineers was getting $110K in the Chicago area and they thought that absurd - their top engineers were making $3600 US.  I'm sure costs have gone up some in China, but we're not talking about 50\% salary differential here, it is more like 20 or 30 times.  When you pay the staff 1/20th of what they would have cost in the US there are some serious incentives to move.</p><p>If you can also leave all the Prop 65 signs behind that is probably 80\% of the deal right there.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>High-skill people do n't have that many immigration problems .
There are H1B problems , so if someone wants to come here temporarily that is a different issue entirely .
Especially if the company wants some people , and the people are only interested in being sponsored.The biggest difference however is labor costs .
Not that long ago we were working with a Chinese manufacturer of consumer electronic stuff .
Our engineers was getting $ 110K in the Chicago area and they thought that absurd - their top engineers were making $ 3600 US .
I 'm sure costs have gone up some in China , but we 're not talking about 50 \ % salary differential here , it is more like 20 or 30 times .
When you pay the staff 1/20th of what they would have cost in the US there are some serious incentives to move.If you can also leave all the Prop 65 signs behind that is probably 80 \ % of the deal right there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>High-skill people don't have that many immigration problems.
There are H1B problems, so if someone wants to come here temporarily that is a different issue entirely.
Especially if the company wants some people, and the people are only interested in being sponsored.The biggest difference however is labor costs.
Not that long ago we were working with a Chinese manufacturer of consumer electronic stuff.
Our engineers was getting $110K in the Chicago area and they thought that absurd - their top engineers were making $3600 US.
I'm sure costs have gone up some in China, but we're not talking about 50\% salary differential here, it is more like 20 or 30 times.
When you pay the staff 1/20th of what they would have cost in the US there are some serious incentives to move.If you can also leave all the Prop 65 signs behind that is probably 80\% of the deal right there.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529892</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530590</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>dan828</author>
	<datestamp>1268914860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yeah, talk to the Spanish or the British about how well that all worked out for them.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , talk to the Spanish or the British about how well that all worked out for them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, talk to the Spanish or the British about how well that all worked out for them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530192</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31532610</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268930400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Of course, one could just as easily assemble a similarly meaningless list with a few points that would demonstrate how the USSR was an "intellectual development centre of the world". I shall leave drawing far-fetched conclusions from that as an exercise to the reader.</p></div><p>Fuck you, we're doing it anyway.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Of course , one could just as easily assemble a similarly meaningless list with a few points that would demonstrate how the USSR was an " intellectual development centre of the world " .
I shall leave drawing far-fetched conclusions from that as an exercise to the reader.Fuck you , we 're doing it anyway .
; - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Of course, one could just as easily assemble a similarly meaningless list with a few points that would demonstrate how the USSR was an "intellectual development centre of the world".
I shall leave drawing far-fetched conclusions from that as an exercise to the reader.Fuck you, we're doing it anyway.
;-)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530614</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31532982</id>
	<title>Re:Good news if it results in less regulation</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268934300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>if i bashed your skull in with a pipe it would be of more benefit to the world than anything you will ever do</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>if i bashed your skull in with a pipe it would be of more benefit to the world than anything you will ever do</tokentext>
<sentencetext>if i bashed your skull in with a pipe it would be of more benefit to the world than anything you will ever do</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530020</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531600</id>
	<title>Re:Good job</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268921520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Another way to stop outsourcing and actually have IN-sourcing is to drastically cut (possibly even eliminate) corporate taxes.  The US has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world (15\%-39\% for Federal taxes and 0\%-12\% for State taxes, so potentially a 51\% corporate tax rate) and it's a known fact among economists that it's harming the US economy.  If we cut corporate taxes so that we were lower than average, then it would provide great incentive not only to keep jobs here but also for foreign companies to move their operations to the US.  Combine low corporate taxes with easy immigration for skilled workers and you have a perfect recipe for a booming economy.</p></div><p>Eliminating corporate taxes wouldn't do shit to solve the problem.  Foreign companies would just move their headquarters to the US to gain the tax benefits, and continue to keep all the jobs offshore to save on labor costs.

I know this is an unpopular opinion here, but as much as libertarians like to go on about how things will work out perfectly for everyone if all the taxes and regulations go away, they don't realize (or don't care) that the unregulated free market utopia that they so desperately wish for will leave most people worse off than they are now -- but at least the Chinese will have more jobs!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Another way to stop outsourcing and actually have IN-sourcing is to drastically cut ( possibly even eliminate ) corporate taxes .
The US has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world ( 15 \ % -39 \ % for Federal taxes and 0 \ % -12 \ % for State taxes , so potentially a 51 \ % corporate tax rate ) and it 's a known fact among economists that it 's harming the US economy .
If we cut corporate taxes so that we were lower than average , then it would provide great incentive not only to keep jobs here but also for foreign companies to move their operations to the US .
Combine low corporate taxes with easy immigration for skilled workers and you have a perfect recipe for a booming economy.Eliminating corporate taxes would n't do shit to solve the problem .
Foreign companies would just move their headquarters to the US to gain the tax benefits , and continue to keep all the jobs offshore to save on labor costs .
I know this is an unpopular opinion here , but as much as libertarians like to go on about how things will work out perfectly for everyone if all the taxes and regulations go away , they do n't realize ( or do n't care ) that the unregulated free market utopia that they so desperately wish for will leave most people worse off than they are now -- but at least the Chinese will have more jobs !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Another way to stop outsourcing and actually have IN-sourcing is to drastically cut (possibly even eliminate) corporate taxes.
The US has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world (15\%-39\% for Federal taxes and 0\%-12\% for State taxes, so potentially a 51\% corporate tax rate) and it's a known fact among economists that it's harming the US economy.
If we cut corporate taxes so that we were lower than average, then it would provide great incentive not only to keep jobs here but also for foreign companies to move their operations to the US.
Combine low corporate taxes with easy immigration for skilled workers and you have a perfect recipe for a booming economy.Eliminating corporate taxes wouldn't do shit to solve the problem.
Foreign companies would just move their headquarters to the US to gain the tax benefits, and continue to keep all the jobs offshore to save on labor costs.
I know this is an unpopular opinion here, but as much as libertarians like to go on about how things will work out perfectly for everyone if all the taxes and regulations go away, they don't realize (or don't care) that the unregulated free market utopia that they so desperately wish for will leave most people worse off than they are now -- but at least the Chinese will have more jobs!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530606</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531220</id>
	<title>Re:Good news if it results in less regulation</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268918760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The free market will in the end lead to a pretty equal cost to produce stuff around the globe. Once that's happened there wont be the quick wins that GP is dreaming about. It all comes down to globalization. Good, bad? it's up to you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The free market will in the end lead to a pretty equal cost to produce stuff around the globe .
Once that 's happened there wont be the quick wins that GP is dreaming about .
It all comes down to globalization .
Good , bad ?
it 's up to you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The free market will in the end lead to a pretty equal cost to produce stuff around the globe.
Once that's happened there wont be the quick wins that GP is dreaming about.
It all comes down to globalization.
Good, bad?
it's up to you.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530184</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531590</id>
	<title>Re:Western and Eastern educations are not equivale</title>
	<author>topcoder</author>
	<datestamp>1268921340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>Trying to put a little objectivity to this comment i will add this:
<p>
Consider the science contests from high school called science olympiads, where big scientists like Grigori Perelman and Terence Tao have competed, contests where things like the ones you mentioned (innovation, creativity, etc.) play a huge part for the results, let's say the two most relevant subjects for computer science (informatics and mathematics):
</p><p>
Historic results for all countries on the IMO (mathematics):
</p><p>
<a href="http://imo-official.org/results.aspx" title="imo-official.org" rel="nofollow">http://imo-official.org/results.aspx</a> [imo-official.org]
</p><p>
Last results for gold medal on the 2009 IOI (informatics):
</p><p>
<a href="http://www.ioi2009.org/index.jsp?id=414&amp;ln=2" title="ioi2009.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.ioi2009.org/index.jsp?id=414&amp;ln=2</a> [ioi2009.org]
</p><p>
As you can see, at least in these competitions, China DOES seem to be better than USA (than all countries in fact), while India seems a more mediocre country like you comment.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Trying to put a little objectivity to this comment i will add this : Consider the science contests from high school called science olympiads , where big scientists like Grigori Perelman and Terence Tao have competed , contests where things like the ones you mentioned ( innovation , creativity , etc .
) play a huge part for the results , let 's say the two most relevant subjects for computer science ( informatics and mathematics ) : Historic results for all countries on the IMO ( mathematics ) : http : //imo-official.org/results.aspx [ imo-official.org ] Last results for gold medal on the 2009 IOI ( informatics ) : http : //www.ioi2009.org/index.jsp ? id = 414&amp;ln = 2 [ ioi2009.org ] As you can see , at least in these competitions , China DOES seem to be better than USA ( than all countries in fact ) , while India seems a more mediocre country like you comment .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Trying to put a little objectivity to this comment i will add this:

Consider the science contests from high school called science olympiads, where big scientists like Grigori Perelman and Terence Tao have competed, contests where things like the ones you mentioned (innovation, creativity, etc.
) play a huge part for the results, let's say the two most relevant subjects for computer science (informatics and mathematics):

Historic results for all countries on the IMO (mathematics):

http://imo-official.org/results.aspx [imo-official.org]

Last results for gold medal on the 2009 IOI (informatics):

http://www.ioi2009.org/index.jsp?id=414&amp;ln=2 [ioi2009.org]

As you can see, at least in these competitions, China DOES seem to be better than USA (than all countries in fact), while India seems a more mediocre country like you comment.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529824</id>
	<title>I wonder what will happen in the long run?</title>
	<author>rennerik</author>
	<datestamp>1268910600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>A lot of production and manufacturing were moved to China over the past couple of decades, and that's only been increasing.  Free traders promised that high tech jobs would stay in the US, and now they're moving out too.<br>
<br>
I wonder what the ultimate result of this will be.  I know that the US will always need mechanics, plumbers, electricians, retail clerks, warehouse people, office workers, etc, but none of these jobs pay very well (though I have noticed a trend that the price of service jobs such as electricians and plumbers has increased significantly, at least here in Los Angeles, over the past decade).  Heck, they've even outsourced customer service at call centers overseas.  Will this mean that in the next fifty years, America will just be in the service industry and nothing else?  And the kind of service industry, by the way, that's menial and requires little knowledge and effort (like being an office clerk).  Will most of the highly-prized work go overseas?  Does that mean that people who want to work in those fields will have to go overseas to get work?  And if they do, will they be making pennies on the dollar?  Would China even allow that?  I'd imagine they'd want their own people to be employed, rather than incoming foreigners.
<br> <br>
I don't know what will happen in the next few decades, but trends like this scare me.  It makes me think about how, in an effort to make more profit, corporations have essentially dismantled US tech and manufacturing, which, for most of America's history, have been the backbone of this country.  Heck, you can't even call farmers and ranchers that anymore; we import even our beef from other countries.</htmltext>
<tokenext>A lot of production and manufacturing were moved to China over the past couple of decades , and that 's only been increasing .
Free traders promised that high tech jobs would stay in the US , and now they 're moving out too .
I wonder what the ultimate result of this will be .
I know that the US will always need mechanics , plumbers , electricians , retail clerks , warehouse people , office workers , etc , but none of these jobs pay very well ( though I have noticed a trend that the price of service jobs such as electricians and plumbers has increased significantly , at least here in Los Angeles , over the past decade ) .
Heck , they 've even outsourced customer service at call centers overseas .
Will this mean that in the next fifty years , America will just be in the service industry and nothing else ?
And the kind of service industry , by the way , that 's menial and requires little knowledge and effort ( like being an office clerk ) .
Will most of the highly-prized work go overseas ?
Does that mean that people who want to work in those fields will have to go overseas to get work ?
And if they do , will they be making pennies on the dollar ?
Would China even allow that ?
I 'd imagine they 'd want their own people to be employed , rather than incoming foreigners .
I do n't know what will happen in the next few decades , but trends like this scare me .
It makes me think about how , in an effort to make more profit , corporations have essentially dismantled US tech and manufacturing , which , for most of America 's history , have been the backbone of this country .
Heck , you ca n't even call farmers and ranchers that anymore ; we import even our beef from other countries .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A lot of production and manufacturing were moved to China over the past couple of decades, and that's only been increasing.
Free traders promised that high tech jobs would stay in the US, and now they're moving out too.
I wonder what the ultimate result of this will be.
I know that the US will always need mechanics, plumbers, electricians, retail clerks, warehouse people, office workers, etc, but none of these jobs pay very well (though I have noticed a trend that the price of service jobs such as electricians and plumbers has increased significantly, at least here in Los Angeles, over the past decade).
Heck, they've even outsourced customer service at call centers overseas.
Will this mean that in the next fifty years, America will just be in the service industry and nothing else?
And the kind of service industry, by the way, that's menial and requires little knowledge and effort (like being an office clerk).
Will most of the highly-prized work go overseas?
Does that mean that people who want to work in those fields will have to go overseas to get work?
And if they do, will they be making pennies on the dollar?
Would China even allow that?
I'd imagine they'd want their own people to be employed, rather than incoming foreigners.
I don't know what will happen in the next few decades, but trends like this scare me.
It makes me think about how, in an effort to make more profit, corporations have essentially dismantled US tech and manufacturing, which, for most of America's history, have been the backbone of this country.
Heck, you can't even call farmers and ranchers that anymore; we import even our beef from other countries.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31533308</id>
	<title>Re:Western and Eastern educations are not equivale</title>
	<author>gullevek</author>
	<datestamp>1268938200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Same with china. different color, same shit for Software development. But it is, oh so cheap<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... The fact that you waste double the time fixing the things they half assed implemented<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Same with china .
different color , same shit for Software development .
But it is , oh so cheap ... The fact that you waste double the time fixing the things they half assed implemented .. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Same with china.
different color, same shit for Software development.
But it is, oh so cheap ... The fact that you waste double the time fixing the things they half assed implemented ...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531956</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>Beardo the Bearded</author>
	<datestamp>1268924760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>On all those points, you're wrong.</p></div><p>I don't have to be right.  This is the Internet.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>On all those points , you 're wrong.I do n't have to be right .
This is the Internet .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On all those points, you're wrong.I don't have to be right.
This is the Internet.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530614</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31540238</id>
	<title>It's not that bad</title>
	<author>blue-slonopotam</author>
	<datestamp>1269021540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The talks about Xian facility are at least a couple of years old, nothing new here.
Solar is NOT profitable, it's a money sinkhole. Applied started it because US government was subsidizing it. Now that subsidy has dried up, it does not make any sense to keep doing in US. China keeps subsidizing, this is why this new part of the company goes to China.
Otherwise right, you outsource manufacturing, then you have to build engineering support there, then comes engineering development, then goes management, one level after another. Mark is at least VP level, so those screaming "let's outsource CEOs" can shut up now.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The talks about Xian facility are at least a couple of years old , nothing new here .
Solar is NOT profitable , it 's a money sinkhole .
Applied started it because US government was subsidizing it .
Now that subsidy has dried up , it does not make any sense to keep doing in US .
China keeps subsidizing , this is why this new part of the company goes to China .
Otherwise right , you outsource manufacturing , then you have to build engineering support there , then comes engineering development , then goes management , one level after another .
Mark is at least VP level , so those screaming " let 's outsource CEOs " can shut up now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The talks about Xian facility are at least a couple of years old, nothing new here.
Solar is NOT profitable, it's a money sinkhole.
Applied started it because US government was subsidizing it.
Now that subsidy has dried up, it does not make any sense to keep doing in US.
China keeps subsidizing, this is why this new part of the company goes to China.
Otherwise right, you outsource manufacturing, then you have to build engineering support there, then comes engineering development, then goes management, one level after another.
Mark is at least VP level, so those screaming "let's outsource CEOs" can shut up now.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530248</id>
	<title>Re:Good news if it results in less regulation</title>
	<author>pavera</author>
	<datestamp>1268912760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How much are you paid mr "engineering manager"?  If you make more than the engineers who are ACTUALLY DOING THE WORK, then you are overpaid.</p><p>Making short sighted investment decisions like this is why our country is in such a shambles.  If businesses actually looked out 5-10 years once in a while, instead of 3 months from now, then we wouldn't have all this outsourcing.</p><p>Great so you hire some chinese engineers who you can barely communicate with, and BTW, who hate you and are your sworn enemies (Yes the Chinese HATE America, with a passion!).  But they make nice, and get the job cause they'll do it for 1/10th the price (per hour).  Of course once you factor in all the communication errors you're going to have, it takes them 3 times as long to do anything, so that eats up some of the savings.  Now, the issue is, they own your company.  The engineers OWN your company.  So you better be happy having the ownership of your company controlled by people who may at any minute be detained for "subversive" behavior.</p><p>But say all that works out, great wonderful.  It's 5 years from now and you need another 50 engineers to support your systems and customers.  You decide "we have enough money now, lets hire some americans".  So you start to try to do that, but the Chinese won't share info with your new American employees.  Then suddenly, a new competitor pops up in China, they have all your info, all your code, and wow, their CEO is your old head engineer.  Suddenly they stop talking to you all together.  You have no one in america that understands your code, you have no one that can even get the latest versions of your code (its all in China), and wow... your business is over.  And good luck appealing to the Chinese government for help!  The american government won't be able to do anything to help you either.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How much are you paid mr " engineering manager " ?
If you make more than the engineers who are ACTUALLY DOING THE WORK , then you are overpaid.Making short sighted investment decisions like this is why our country is in such a shambles .
If businesses actually looked out 5-10 years once in a while , instead of 3 months from now , then we would n't have all this outsourcing.Great so you hire some chinese engineers who you can barely communicate with , and BTW , who hate you and are your sworn enemies ( Yes the Chinese HATE America , with a passion ! ) .
But they make nice , and get the job cause they 'll do it for 1/10th the price ( per hour ) .
Of course once you factor in all the communication errors you 're going to have , it takes them 3 times as long to do anything , so that eats up some of the savings .
Now , the issue is , they own your company .
The engineers OWN your company .
So you better be happy having the ownership of your company controlled by people who may at any minute be detained for " subversive " behavior.But say all that works out , great wonderful .
It 's 5 years from now and you need another 50 engineers to support your systems and customers .
You decide " we have enough money now , lets hire some americans " .
So you start to try to do that , but the Chinese wo n't share info with your new American employees .
Then suddenly , a new competitor pops up in China , they have all your info , all your code , and wow , their CEO is your old head engineer .
Suddenly they stop talking to you all together .
You have no one in america that understands your code , you have no one that can even get the latest versions of your code ( its all in China ) , and wow... your business is over .
And good luck appealing to the Chinese government for help !
The american government wo n't be able to do anything to help you either .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How much are you paid mr "engineering manager"?
If you make more than the engineers who are ACTUALLY DOING THE WORK, then you are overpaid.Making short sighted investment decisions like this is why our country is in such a shambles.
If businesses actually looked out 5-10 years once in a while, instead of 3 months from now, then we wouldn't have all this outsourcing.Great so you hire some chinese engineers who you can barely communicate with, and BTW, who hate you and are your sworn enemies (Yes the Chinese HATE America, with a passion!).
But they make nice, and get the job cause they'll do it for 1/10th the price (per hour).
Of course once you factor in all the communication errors you're going to have, it takes them 3 times as long to do anything, so that eats up some of the savings.
Now, the issue is, they own your company.
The engineers OWN your company.
So you better be happy having the ownership of your company controlled by people who may at any minute be detained for "subversive" behavior.But say all that works out, great wonderful.
It's 5 years from now and you need another 50 engineers to support your systems and customers.
You decide "we have enough money now, lets hire some americans".
So you start to try to do that, but the Chinese won't share info with your new American employees.
Then suddenly, a new competitor pops up in China, they have all your info, all your code, and wow, their CEO is your old head engineer.
Suddenly they stop talking to you all together.
You have no one in america that understands your code, you have no one that can even get the latest versions of your code (its all in China), and wow... your business is over.
And good luck appealing to the Chinese government for help!
The american government won't be able to do anything to help you either.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530020</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531878</id>
	<title>Good move</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268923920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At least now I won't have to get finger printed like a common criminal every time I go to China.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At least now I wo n't have to get finger printed like a common criminal every time I go to China .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At least now I won't have to get finger printed like a common criminal every time I go to China.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31534332</id>
	<title>Re:Western and Eastern educations are not equivale</title>
	<author>tyrione</author>
	<datestamp>1268998860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Here's how it worked. The experienced German staff were put in a team with a few Russians that knew nothing but the basics. After a while the Russians in the team would be <strong>competent</strong>, and then they would suddenly be posted elsewhere and there would be new people in the team that knew nothing but the basics. After a while there was a very large pool of Russian staff that <strong>knew everything</strong> the German staff knew and it was no longer considered worthwhile to continue to feed the German staff.</p></div><p>Your argument would have made sense if it were consistent. <strong> <em>knew everything</em> </strong> is not equivalent to <strong>competent</strong>. They weren't the German experts, even after they were trained. The goal for the USSR was to make themselves competent enough so they thought, and thus would make the German experts now obsolete. History proved they overestimated their competency. Unfortunately for them, they didn't have a back up plan. Starving the talent to death is not a reversible state.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Here 's how it worked .
The experienced German staff were put in a team with a few Russians that knew nothing but the basics .
After a while the Russians in the team would be competent , and then they would suddenly be posted elsewhere and there would be new people in the team that knew nothing but the basics .
After a while there was a very large pool of Russian staff that knew everything the German staff knew and it was no longer considered worthwhile to continue to feed the German staff.Your argument would have made sense if it were consistent .
knew everything is not equivalent to competent .
They were n't the German experts , even after they were trained .
The goal for the USSR was to make themselves competent enough so they thought , and thus would make the German experts now obsolete .
History proved they overestimated their competency .
Unfortunately for them , they did n't have a back up plan .
Starving the talent to death is not a reversible state .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here's how it worked.
The experienced German staff were put in a team with a few Russians that knew nothing but the basics.
After a while the Russians in the team would be competent, and then they would suddenly be posted elsewhere and there would be new people in the team that knew nothing but the basics.
After a while there was a very large pool of Russian staff that knew everything the German staff knew and it was no longer considered worthwhile to continue to feed the German staff.Your argument would have made sense if it were consistent.
knew everything  is not equivalent to competent.
They weren't the German experts, even after they were trained.
The goal for the USSR was to make themselves competent enough so they thought, and thus would make the German experts now obsolete.
History proved they overestimated their competency.
Unfortunately for them, they didn't have a back up plan.
Starving the talent to death is not a reversible state.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531664</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529688</id>
	<title>Good job</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268910000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is what happens when you try to be smart ass and move all of your work load to other countries because it's supposedly cheaper. Good job.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is what happens when you try to be smart ass and move all of your work load to other countries because it 's supposedly cheaper .
Good job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is what happens when you try to be smart ass and move all of your work load to other countries because it's supposedly cheaper.
Good job.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31534082</id>
	<title>Import what?</title>
	<author>SmallFurryCreature</author>
	<datestamp>1268995320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How can China import high-tech goods if they are all produced in their own country? iPod's are NOT an import product for the Chinese. They are an import product from America.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How can China import high-tech goods if they are all produced in their own country ?
iPod 's are NOT an import product for the Chinese .
They are an import product from America .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How can China import high-tech goods if they are all produced in their own country?
iPod's are NOT an import product for the Chinese.
They are an import product from America.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530140</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31533966</id>
	<title>Re:This is significant.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268993700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"A point made by the Applied Materials guy is that the cost of installation needs to come way down. Right now, installation costs are about half the cost of a solar installation on a building."</p><p>The solution is so simple that even a fool can tell it: just import some cheap workforce from China...as they are doing in e.g. Algeria: although 30-40\% of young is unemployed, tens of thousands of Chinese are working on construction projects.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" A point made by the Applied Materials guy is that the cost of installation needs to come way down .
Right now , installation costs are about half the cost of a solar installation on a building .
" The solution is so simple that even a fool can tell it : just import some cheap workforce from China...as they are doing in e.g .
Algeria : although 30-40 \ % of young is unemployed , tens of thousands of Chinese are working on construction projects .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"A point made by the Applied Materials guy is that the cost of installation needs to come way down.
Right now, installation costs are about half the cost of a solar installation on a building.
"The solution is so simple that even a fool can tell it: just import some cheap workforce from China...as they are doing in e.g.
Algeria: although 30-40\% of young is unemployed, tens of thousands of Chinese are working on construction projects.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530770</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531734</id>
	<title>Re:I wonder what will happen in the long run?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268922780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why does hardly anyone point to labor unions and government taxation/regulation/support of unions as the problem?</p><p>Nothing had to leave the country.  Things which naturally can't be done as well here as else where would naturally migrate away in a free market, such as sugar production.  The machines were already here, they didn't have to move.  But when corporations are forced to pay union man maybe ten times what he is worth by the union/government, then the corporation is going to learn not to invest in any new capital in the country where they;re being squeezed.  If it gets bad enough then the company will move the existing capital somewhere else.</p><p>The corporations only do what is need to operate efficiently (that is to maximized profit).  Competition tends to force profit close to zero.  So if your competition comes from tax free union free china/thailand/singapore, and you're trying to operate out of detroit you will either pick up and move, or die.</p><p>Just flat out stop taxing corporations, and tell unions that going on strike == quiting and finding another job instead of blackmailing the current employer.  Then watch how fast corporations come running back.  People who flip burgers will then make about what people who mindlessly put screws into cars would find themselves making.  As they should.</p><p>Corporations are not evil, the U.S. government is evil.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why does hardly anyone point to labor unions and government taxation/regulation/support of unions as the problem ? Nothing had to leave the country .
Things which naturally ca n't be done as well here as else where would naturally migrate away in a free market , such as sugar production .
The machines were already here , they did n't have to move .
But when corporations are forced to pay union man maybe ten times what he is worth by the union/government , then the corporation is going to learn not to invest in any new capital in the country where they ; re being squeezed .
If it gets bad enough then the company will move the existing capital somewhere else.The corporations only do what is need to operate efficiently ( that is to maximized profit ) .
Competition tends to force profit close to zero .
So if your competition comes from tax free union free china/thailand/singapore , and you 're trying to operate out of detroit you will either pick up and move , or die.Just flat out stop taxing corporations , and tell unions that going on strike = = quiting and finding another job instead of blackmailing the current employer .
Then watch how fast corporations come running back .
People who flip burgers will then make about what people who mindlessly put screws into cars would find themselves making .
As they should.Corporations are not evil , the U.S. government is evil .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why does hardly anyone point to labor unions and government taxation/regulation/support of unions as the problem?Nothing had to leave the country.
Things which naturally can't be done as well here as else where would naturally migrate away in a free market, such as sugar production.
The machines were already here, they didn't have to move.
But when corporations are forced to pay union man maybe ten times what he is worth by the union/government, then the corporation is going to learn not to invest in any new capital in the country where they;re being squeezed.
If it gets bad enough then the company will move the existing capital somewhere else.The corporations only do what is need to operate efficiently (that is to maximized profit).
Competition tends to force profit close to zero.
So if your competition comes from tax free union free china/thailand/singapore, and you're trying to operate out of detroit you will either pick up and move, or die.Just flat out stop taxing corporations, and tell unions that going on strike == quiting and finding another job instead of blackmailing the current employer.
Then watch how fast corporations come running back.
People who flip burgers will then make about what people who mindlessly put screws into cars would find themselves making.
As they should.Corporations are not evil, the U.S. government is evil.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529824</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531720</id>
	<title>Re:Good job</title>
	<author>philosiphus</author>
	<datestamp>1268922600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Whenever I hear complaints about the lack of (cheap) skilled engineering there are 4 things that spring to mind:</p><ul><li>cost of education in the U.S.  -- to get a PhD costs $150-200k or more.</li></ul><ul><li>emphasis on "diversity" over skill and working hard such that those who could become good engineers (out of desire) are pushed out, discouraged or taught wrongly because they are the wrong ethnicity or gender.  This means some people are being encouraged to become engineers because they are an underrepresented demographic.  I'm not talking about natural abilities; I believe once you get above a real (including nonverbal) IQ of 110 or so proclivity and willingness to work makes a larger difference.  For "taught wrongly" I mean this whole thing about revamping the math curriculum to get female scores up is complete bullshit because females don't learn math that differently from males (according to the famous female mathematicians) -- there just isn't that high a level of interest.</li></ul><ul><li>laziness: engineering and science are hard and it is too easy to make more with less work going into management.</li></ul><ul><li>lack of jobs: sure they say there is "demand" for skilled engineers in the U.S. but try being a recent graduate - particularly one of the overrepresented demographic - looking for a job.  When all the jobs have gone overseas, why become an engineer?  (Related gripe: lack of knowledge transfer in the U.S.)</li></ul><p>For the cost of having a worker, count in the cost of taxes on that worker as part of the cost of living when the taxes aren't returned.  That is, redistributive and wasteful taxation schemes in the U.S. are part of the problem for worker cost.  If you lose 40\% of your income in Denmark but get that 40\% back in social services direct to you that's fine but if you pay 35\% of your income toward taxes and don't see it again the cost goes up, doesn't it?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Whenever I hear complaints about the lack of ( cheap ) skilled engineering there are 4 things that spring to mind : cost of education in the U.S. -- to get a PhD costs $ 150-200k or more.emphasis on " diversity " over skill and working hard such that those who could become good engineers ( out of desire ) are pushed out , discouraged or taught wrongly because they are the wrong ethnicity or gender .
This means some people are being encouraged to become engineers because they are an underrepresented demographic .
I 'm not talking about natural abilities ; I believe once you get above a real ( including nonverbal ) IQ of 110 or so proclivity and willingness to work makes a larger difference .
For " taught wrongly " I mean this whole thing about revamping the math curriculum to get female scores up is complete bullshit because females do n't learn math that differently from males ( according to the famous female mathematicians ) -- there just is n't that high a level of interest.laziness : engineering and science are hard and it is too easy to make more with less work going into management.lack of jobs : sure they say there is " demand " for skilled engineers in the U.S. but try being a recent graduate - particularly one of the overrepresented demographic - looking for a job .
When all the jobs have gone overseas , why become an engineer ?
( Related gripe : lack of knowledge transfer in the U.S. ) For the cost of having a worker , count in the cost of taxes on that worker as part of the cost of living when the taxes are n't returned .
That is , redistributive and wasteful taxation schemes in the U.S. are part of the problem for worker cost .
If you lose 40 \ % of your income in Denmark but get that 40 \ % back in social services direct to you that 's fine but if you pay 35 \ % of your income toward taxes and do n't see it again the cost goes up , does n't it ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Whenever I hear complaints about the lack of (cheap) skilled engineering there are 4 things that spring to mind:cost of education in the U.S.  -- to get a PhD costs $150-200k or more.emphasis on "diversity" over skill and working hard such that those who could become good engineers (out of desire) are pushed out, discouraged or taught wrongly because they are the wrong ethnicity or gender.
This means some people are being encouraged to become engineers because they are an underrepresented demographic.
I'm not talking about natural abilities; I believe once you get above a real (including nonverbal) IQ of 110 or so proclivity and willingness to work makes a larger difference.
For "taught wrongly" I mean this whole thing about revamping the math curriculum to get female scores up is complete bullshit because females don't learn math that differently from males (according to the famous female mathematicians) -- there just isn't that high a level of interest.laziness: engineering and science are hard and it is too easy to make more with less work going into management.lack of jobs: sure they say there is "demand" for skilled engineers in the U.S. but try being a recent graduate - particularly one of the overrepresented demographic - looking for a job.
When all the jobs have gone overseas, why become an engineer?
(Related gripe: lack of knowledge transfer in the U.S.)For the cost of having a worker, count in the cost of taxes on that worker as part of the cost of living when the taxes aren't returned.
That is, redistributive and wasteful taxation schemes in the U.S. are part of the problem for worker cost.
If you lose 40\% of your income in Denmark but get that 40\% back in social services direct to you that's fine but if you pay 35\% of your income toward taxes and don't see it again the cost goes up, doesn't it?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529892</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530332</id>
	<title>Re:War</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268913240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't forget the assistance of legions of flag-waving teabaggers who buy rafts of cheap Chinese shit at Wal-Mart before heading off to ask Jeebus to make America great.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't forget the assistance of legions of flag-waving teabaggers who buy rafts of cheap Chinese shit at Wal-Mart before heading off to ask Jeebus to make America great .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't forget the assistance of legions of flag-waving teabaggers who buy rafts of cheap Chinese shit at Wal-Mart before heading off to ask Jeebus to make America great.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530010</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31534714</id>
	<title>Re:Western and Eastern educations are not equivale</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269003480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't place all your cards in this basket. Ignoring your blatant stereotyping for a moment, a lack of creative thinking isn't a hard issue to fix. You're statement is like saying that we're in a cross country race and the asians aren't going to win because, even though they have a high speed gasoline/maintenance truck following them the whole time their tires are cheap and blow out all the time, so they'll have to spend all their time changing tires. All it takes is one switch in the type of tires and all those other resources can come fully to play.</p><p>Having addressed that topic, it's funny to watch information sources trumpet the brain-drain stories so loudly. I wonder if anyone checked to make sure it isn't just that high tech is *growing* in Asia and not "going" to Asia? How can your assessment be good if it doesn't take into account the recent recession?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't place all your cards in this basket .
Ignoring your blatant stereotyping for a moment , a lack of creative thinking is n't a hard issue to fix .
You 're statement is like saying that we 're in a cross country race and the asians are n't going to win because , even though they have a high speed gasoline/maintenance truck following them the whole time their tires are cheap and blow out all the time , so they 'll have to spend all their time changing tires .
All it takes is one switch in the type of tires and all those other resources can come fully to play.Having addressed that topic , it 's funny to watch information sources trumpet the brain-drain stories so loudly .
I wonder if anyone checked to make sure it is n't just that high tech is * growing * in Asia and not " going " to Asia ?
How can your assessment be good if it does n't take into account the recent recession ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't place all your cards in this basket.
Ignoring your blatant stereotyping for a moment, a lack of creative thinking isn't a hard issue to fix.
You're statement is like saying that we're in a cross country race and the asians aren't going to win because, even though they have a high speed gasoline/maintenance truck following them the whole time their tires are cheap and blow out all the time, so they'll have to spend all their time changing tires.
All it takes is one switch in the type of tires and all those other resources can come fully to play.Having addressed that topic, it's funny to watch information sources trumpet the brain-drain stories so loudly.
I wonder if anyone checked to make sure it isn't just that high tech is *growing* in Asia and not "going" to Asia?
How can your assessment be good if it doesn't take into account the recent recession?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31539406</id>
	<title>Re:Western and Eastern educations are not equivale</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269018840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>These tests are not common and are relatively unknown in India. As a student in India, I was aware of them but knew nobody who took them. Only a few kids from big cities ever took them. You can use these tests as benchmark when there is equal availability and exposure in the countries you compare with.</p><p>But I will tell you something so common and so incredible that you have to really pay close attention to notice it -</p><p>When you purchase fruits/vegis and what have you from street side vendors<nobr> <wbr></nobr>..who most of them are illiterates,  after haggling a price and quantity. the vendor will calculate the exact price with out a calculator or paper or pencil. the purchaser will calculate the price on his own without again without calculator or paper or pencil.<br>How many math Olympians do you think can do this ?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>These tests are not common and are relatively unknown in India .
As a student in India , I was aware of them but knew nobody who took them .
Only a few kids from big cities ever took them .
You can use these tests as benchmark when there is equal availability and exposure in the countries you compare with.But I will tell you something so common and so incredible that you have to really pay close attention to notice it -When you purchase fruits/vegis and what have you from street side vendors ..who most of them are illiterates , after haggling a price and quantity .
the vendor will calculate the exact price with out a calculator or paper or pencil .
the purchaser will calculate the price on his own without again without calculator or paper or pencil.How many math Olympians do you think can do this ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>These tests are not common and are relatively unknown in India.
As a student in India, I was aware of them but knew nobody who took them.
Only a few kids from big cities ever took them.
You can use these tests as benchmark when there is equal availability and exposure in the countries you compare with.But I will tell you something so common and so incredible that you have to really pay close attention to notice it -When you purchase fruits/vegis and what have you from street side vendors ..who most of them are illiterates,  after haggling a price and quantity.
the vendor will calculate the exact price with out a calculator or paper or pencil.
the purchaser will calculate the price on his own without again without calculator or paper or pencil.How many math Olympians do you think can do this ?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531590</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531100</id>
	<title>Re:Good job</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268918100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I make closer to that $60k then that $120k with my industry job with a PhD. This is after my recent raise. And this is in  the bay area; there are areas of the US where $60k would work out to more than I'm making now if you adjusted for cost of living.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I make closer to that $ 60k then that $ 120k with my industry job with a PhD .
This is after my recent raise .
And this is in the bay area ; there are areas of the US where $ 60k would work out to more than I 'm making now if you adjusted for cost of living .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I make closer to that $60k then that $120k with my industry job with a PhD.
This is after my recent raise.
And this is in  the bay area; there are areas of the US where $60k would work out to more than I'm making now if you adjusted for cost of living.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529892</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31533294</id>
	<title>China's time horizons are longer than U.S.'s</title>
	<author>Geof</author>
	<datestamp>1268938020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Most American corporations think of time in terms of quarters.  China consciously thinks long-term.  Consciousness of the 19th century "humiliations" at the hands of the colonial powers (who did indeed behave extremely badly) is strong.  The Chinese are immensely proud of their history as the most powerful empire in the world when the rest of the world was backward.  They aim to be a world power again.  Not next quarter or next year:  they will take what time is required, whether it be decades or generations.

</p><p>This is often captured in the quote attributed to Zhou Enlai, one of the most respected leaders of the Communist Party, when he was asked his opinion of the French Revolution.  "It's too soon to say," he replied.

</p><p>Individual Chinese also have a history of long-term thinking with the tremendous emphasis placed on education.  Americans often have a knee-jerk response that because the government is "communist", it China is a) evil and b) hopelessly incompetent.  This is foolish and wrong.  China today is not communist, it is capitalist - likely more capitalist than many western countries.  Even when it was communist, two of the stars on the Chinese flag represented the petty bourgeoisie and capitalists sympathetic to the Party.  If anything, China today suffers from too much entrepreneurial capitalist zeal, not too little.  If you think their government is incompetent, consider the sclerotic politics of the U.S. today and compare that with a government in China that can simply snap its fingers and get things done (no need to consider the interests of the electorate).  When in the 1990s Beijing decided to eliminate leaded gasoline it happened virtually overnight, drivers of older taxis be damned.

</p><p>With all of that said, I am skeptical of the long-term stability of Chinese society.  The transition to capitalism is wrenching and destructive, just as it was in the west.  But there's a lot of skepticism about American stability floating around too these days.  It is foolish to respond to China's aspirations with arrogance.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Most American corporations think of time in terms of quarters .
China consciously thinks long-term .
Consciousness of the 19th century " humiliations " at the hands of the colonial powers ( who did indeed behave extremely badly ) is strong .
The Chinese are immensely proud of their history as the most powerful empire in the world when the rest of the world was backward .
They aim to be a world power again .
Not next quarter or next year : they will take what time is required , whether it be decades or generations .
This is often captured in the quote attributed to Zhou Enlai , one of the most respected leaders of the Communist Party , when he was asked his opinion of the French Revolution .
" It 's too soon to say , " he replied .
Individual Chinese also have a history of long-term thinking with the tremendous emphasis placed on education .
Americans often have a knee-jerk response that because the government is " communist " , it China is a ) evil and b ) hopelessly incompetent .
This is foolish and wrong .
China today is not communist , it is capitalist - likely more capitalist than many western countries .
Even when it was communist , two of the stars on the Chinese flag represented the petty bourgeoisie and capitalists sympathetic to the Party .
If anything , China today suffers from too much entrepreneurial capitalist zeal , not too little .
If you think their government is incompetent , consider the sclerotic politics of the U.S. today and compare that with a government in China that can simply snap its fingers and get things done ( no need to consider the interests of the electorate ) .
When in the 1990s Beijing decided to eliminate leaded gasoline it happened virtually overnight , drivers of older taxis be damned .
With all of that said , I am skeptical of the long-term stability of Chinese society .
The transition to capitalism is wrenching and destructive , just as it was in the west .
But there 's a lot of skepticism about American stability floating around too these days .
It is foolish to respond to China 's aspirations with arrogance .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most American corporations think of time in terms of quarters.
China consciously thinks long-term.
Consciousness of the 19th century "humiliations" at the hands of the colonial powers (who did indeed behave extremely badly) is strong.
The Chinese are immensely proud of their history as the most powerful empire in the world when the rest of the world was backward.
They aim to be a world power again.
Not next quarter or next year:  they will take what time is required, whether it be decades or generations.
This is often captured in the quote attributed to Zhou Enlai, one of the most respected leaders of the Communist Party, when he was asked his opinion of the French Revolution.
"It's too soon to say," he replied.
Individual Chinese also have a history of long-term thinking with the tremendous emphasis placed on education.
Americans often have a knee-jerk response that because the government is "communist", it China is a) evil and b) hopelessly incompetent.
This is foolish and wrong.
China today is not communist, it is capitalist - likely more capitalist than many western countries.
Even when it was communist, two of the stars on the Chinese flag represented the petty bourgeoisie and capitalists sympathetic to the Party.
If anything, China today suffers from too much entrepreneurial capitalist zeal, not too little.
If you think their government is incompetent, consider the sclerotic politics of the U.S. today and compare that with a government in China that can simply snap its fingers and get things done (no need to consider the interests of the electorate).
When in the 1990s Beijing decided to eliminate leaded gasoline it happened virtually overnight, drivers of older taxis be damned.
With all of that said, I am skeptical of the long-term stability of Chinese society.
The transition to capitalism is wrenching and destructive, just as it was in the west.
But there's a lot of skepticism about American stability floating around too these days.
It is foolish to respond to China's aspirations with arrogance.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529852</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529854</id>
	<title>Sure sure</title>
	<author>Renraku</author>
	<datestamp>1268910720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So when the Chinese inevitably steal their research (that's one of China's strengths) those companies that moved their research to China will be looking to the US government to help them cover their losses.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So when the Chinese inevitably steal their research ( that 's one of China 's strengths ) those companies that moved their research to China will be looking to the US government to help them cover their losses .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So when the Chinese inevitably steal their research (that's one of China's strengths) those companies that moved their research to China will be looking to the US government to help them cover their losses.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31533506</id>
	<title>Re:Good job</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268941020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There is no extremely easy immigration for skilled workers to the US based on employment anymore. It works on ridiculous country-of-birth (not citizenship) based quota systems that exist to promote "diversity," instead of focusing on skill alone. The US could have avoided by a large margin some of the problems with outsourcing and China becoming better at high tech by simply making sure that the brain drain continues. It is just laughable that there are no easier paths to US immigration and citizenship for US-educated Chinese and Indian people. They spend years here, learning under the best, and are then sent back by a system that is set up to discourage highly skilled talent from staying.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is no extremely easy immigration for skilled workers to the US based on employment anymore .
It works on ridiculous country-of-birth ( not citizenship ) based quota systems that exist to promote " diversity , " instead of focusing on skill alone .
The US could have avoided by a large margin some of the problems with outsourcing and China becoming better at high tech by simply making sure that the brain drain continues .
It is just laughable that there are no easier paths to US immigration and citizenship for US-educated Chinese and Indian people .
They spend years here , learning under the best , and are then sent back by a system that is set up to discourage highly skilled talent from staying .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is no extremely easy immigration for skilled workers to the US based on employment anymore.
It works on ridiculous country-of-birth (not citizenship) based quota systems that exist to promote "diversity," instead of focusing on skill alone.
The US could have avoided by a large margin some of the problems with outsourcing and China becoming better at high tech by simply making sure that the brain drain continues.
It is just laughable that there are no easier paths to US immigration and citizenship for US-educated Chinese and Indian people.
They spend years here, learning under the best, and are then sent back by a system that is set up to discourage highly skilled talent from staying.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530606</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530606</id>
	<title>Re:Good job</title>
	<author>Totenglocke</author>
	<datestamp>1268914920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> If we had made it easy for the smart chinese and indians to stay here - then research bases would be here and only manufacturing would move.</p></div><p>Exactly.  I'm all for extremely easy immigration for skilled workers.  I am however against letting in unskilled people - no, it's not because I think I'm better than them, it's because we already have more than enough poor people that we don't need to be importing any.</p><p>Another way to stop outsourcing and actually have IN-sourcing is to drastically cut (possibly even eliminate) corporate taxes.  The US has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world (15\%-39\% for Federal taxes and 0\%-12\% for State taxes, so potentially a 51\% corporate tax rate) and it's a known fact among economists that it's harming the US economy.  If we cut corporate taxes so that we were lower than average, then it would provide great incentive not only to keep jobs here but also for foreign companies to move their operations to the US.  Combine low corporate taxes with easy immigration for skilled workers and you have a perfect recipe for a booming economy.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If we had made it easy for the smart chinese and indians to stay here - then research bases would be here and only manufacturing would move.Exactly .
I 'm all for extremely easy immigration for skilled workers .
I am however against letting in unskilled people - no , it 's not because I think I 'm better than them , it 's because we already have more than enough poor people that we do n't need to be importing any.Another way to stop outsourcing and actually have IN-sourcing is to drastically cut ( possibly even eliminate ) corporate taxes .
The US has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world ( 15 \ % -39 \ % for Federal taxes and 0 \ % -12 \ % for State taxes , so potentially a 51 \ % corporate tax rate ) and it 's a known fact among economists that it 's harming the US economy .
If we cut corporate taxes so that we were lower than average , then it would provide great incentive not only to keep jobs here but also for foreign companies to move their operations to the US .
Combine low corporate taxes with easy immigration for skilled workers and you have a perfect recipe for a booming economy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> If we had made it easy for the smart chinese and indians to stay here - then research bases would be here and only manufacturing would move.Exactly.
I'm all for extremely easy immigration for skilled workers.
I am however against letting in unskilled people - no, it's not because I think I'm better than them, it's because we already have more than enough poor people that we don't need to be importing any.Another way to stop outsourcing and actually have IN-sourcing is to drastically cut (possibly even eliminate) corporate taxes.
The US has one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world (15\%-39\% for Federal taxes and 0\%-12\% for State taxes, so potentially a 51\% corporate tax rate) and it's a known fact among economists that it's harming the US economy.
If we cut corporate taxes so that we were lower than average, then it would provide great incentive not only to keep jobs here but also for foreign companies to move their operations to the US.
Combine low corporate taxes with easy immigration for skilled workers and you have a perfect recipe for a booming economy.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529892</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31533200</id>
	<title>Re:Western and Eastern educations are not equivale</title>
	<author>mochan\_s</author>
	<datestamp>1268936700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>The education there is very different from that of Western nations. Since they have so many people competing for comparatively few spots, they resort to various aptitude tests to try and weed out people. The people who succeed here are the ones who can memorize huge amounts of otherwise useless information, and regurgitate it at will.</p></div></blockquote><p>Aptitude tests are different than memorization tests. Aptitude tests are what is given in the USA (SAT, GRE, GMAT etc) as standardized tests.</p><blockquote><div><p>In R&amp;D, the main factor to consider is how inventive and innovative a researcher is. That doesn't come from being "book smart". It comes from being able to think flexibly and creatively. This is a trait that is encouraged in the academia of the West, but denounced and suppressed in the East.</p></div></blockquote><p>This is a popular belief. There are plenty of past and active Indian researchers who have published and publish good papers, or Indian researchers in large companies who work on very innovative products. So, citation needed please for your beliefs.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The education there is very different from that of Western nations .
Since they have so many people competing for comparatively few spots , they resort to various aptitude tests to try and weed out people .
The people who succeed here are the ones who can memorize huge amounts of otherwise useless information , and regurgitate it at will.Aptitude tests are different than memorization tests .
Aptitude tests are what is given in the USA ( SAT , GRE , GMAT etc ) as standardized tests.In R&amp;D , the main factor to consider is how inventive and innovative a researcher is .
That does n't come from being " book smart " .
It comes from being able to think flexibly and creatively .
This is a trait that is encouraged in the academia of the West , but denounced and suppressed in the East.This is a popular belief .
There are plenty of past and active Indian researchers who have published and publish good papers , or Indian researchers in large companies who work on very innovative products .
So , citation needed please for your beliefs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The education there is very different from that of Western nations.
Since they have so many people competing for comparatively few spots, they resort to various aptitude tests to try and weed out people.
The people who succeed here are the ones who can memorize huge amounts of otherwise useless information, and regurgitate it at will.Aptitude tests are different than memorization tests.
Aptitude tests are what is given in the USA (SAT, GRE, GMAT etc) as standardized tests.In R&amp;D, the main factor to consider is how inventive and innovative a researcher is.
That doesn't come from being "book smart".
It comes from being able to think flexibly and creatively.
This is a trait that is encouraged in the academia of the West, but denounced and suppressed in the East.This is a popular belief.
There are plenty of past and active Indian researchers who have published and publish good papers, or Indian researchers in large companies who work on very innovative products.
So, citation needed please for your beliefs.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531272</id>
	<title>Re:"free traders"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268919060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>the ultimate problem with free trade is free trade itself.<br>close the borders and only allow products made in the country to be sold and everything is fixed. the manufacturing and development moves back here and our economy becomes self sufficient.<br>at the very least we need high tariffs. say 10-15$ in tax on every 50 cent imported gizmo, or 50-75$ tax on a 3.50$ imported shirt.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>the ultimate problem with free trade is free trade itself.close the borders and only allow products made in the country to be sold and everything is fixed .
the manufacturing and development moves back here and our economy becomes self sufficient.at the very least we need high tariffs .
say 10-15 $ in tax on every 50 cent imported gizmo , or 50-75 $ tax on a 3.50 $ imported shirt .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>the ultimate problem with free trade is free trade itself.close the borders and only allow products made in the country to be sold and everything is fixed.
the manufacturing and development moves back here and our economy becomes self sufficient.at the very least we need high tariffs.
say 10-15$ in tax on every 50 cent imported gizmo, or 50-75$ tax on a 3.50$ imported shirt.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530446</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31534886</id>
	<title>Re:Let a 50 year old Engineer tell you something</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269005340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Mod up.<br>China also wants low skilled jobs - otherwise the natives may get restless and protest or worse.<br>America is prepared to move to the British model where they are a nation of shopkeepers selling imported cargo.<br>So far, low skilled Americans are not out in the streets protesting, and they may regress to the great depression days where they accept casual work only at immigrant labor rates.</p><p>Don't have to be a genius to see no bottom level jobs drying up, middle level ones going, top level ones stagnate, and even the banking shenanigans where you play with other peoples money drying up.</p><p>Both incentives and disincentives are needed for un-American companies who fly a flag, but trade on new world wetbacks</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Mod up.China also wants low skilled jobs - otherwise the natives may get restless and protest or worse.America is prepared to move to the British model where they are a nation of shopkeepers selling imported cargo.So far , low skilled Americans are not out in the streets protesting , and they may regress to the great depression days where they accept casual work only at immigrant labor rates.Do n't have to be a genius to see no bottom level jobs drying up , middle level ones going , top level ones stagnate , and even the banking shenanigans where you play with other peoples money drying up.Both incentives and disincentives are needed for un-American companies who fly a flag , but trade on new world wetbacks</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Mod up.China also wants low skilled jobs - otherwise the natives may get restless and protest or worse.America is prepared to move to the British model where they are a nation of shopkeepers selling imported cargo.So far, low skilled Americans are not out in the streets protesting, and they may regress to the great depression days where they accept casual work only at immigrant labor rates.Don't have to be a genius to see no bottom level jobs drying up, middle level ones going, top level ones stagnate, and even the banking shenanigans where you play with other peoples money drying up.Both incentives and disincentives are needed for un-American companies who fly a flag, but trade on new world wetbacks</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530788</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31534120</id>
	<title>Good luck with that</title>
	<author>Aceticon</author>
	<datestamp>1268995800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The Chinese government activelly encourages Chinese companies and people to steal ideas and processes from Western companies so that they can later compete with them not just in China but also outside.</p><p>Even the laws there are done in such a way that any Western company that wants to enter the Chinese market has to do so in a joint venture with a Chinese company which then can learn from said Western company. There are already cases where once a couple of Chinese companies where "trained" in this way, the laws where changed to kick out the Western companies and those Chinese companies started competing in that area outside China.</p><p>Example: Lenovo.</p><p>Sending your R&amp;D to China is pretty much just giving it for free to the Chinese government.</p><p>[Note that I am not critical of the Chinese for doing this: they're doing what's good for them at the expense of dumb Western shareholders]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The Chinese government activelly encourages Chinese companies and people to steal ideas and processes from Western companies so that they can later compete with them not just in China but also outside.Even the laws there are done in such a way that any Western company that wants to enter the Chinese market has to do so in a joint venture with a Chinese company which then can learn from said Western company .
There are already cases where once a couple of Chinese companies where " trained " in this way , the laws where changed to kick out the Western companies and those Chinese companies started competing in that area outside China.Example : Lenovo.Sending your R&amp;D to China is pretty much just giving it for free to the Chinese government .
[ Note that I am not critical of the Chinese for doing this : they 're doing what 's good for them at the expense of dumb Western shareholders ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The Chinese government activelly encourages Chinese companies and people to steal ideas and processes from Western companies so that they can later compete with them not just in China but also outside.Even the laws there are done in such a way that any Western company that wants to enter the Chinese market has to do so in a joint venture with a Chinese company which then can learn from said Western company.
There are already cases where once a couple of Chinese companies where "trained" in this way, the laws where changed to kick out the Western companies and those Chinese companies started competing in that area outside China.Example: Lenovo.Sending your R&amp;D to China is pretty much just giving it for free to the Chinese government.
[Note that I am not critical of the Chinese for doing this: they're doing what's good for them at the expense of dumb Western shareholders]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31533224</id>
	<title>We got what's coming to us</title>
	<author>wisebabo</author>
	<datestamp>1268937000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Let's face it, we (mainly) have no one to blame but OURSELVES.</p><p>No I don't mean our politicians, or business leaders or anyone else but US.</p><p>What do expect of a population that doesn't believe in Evolution?  Something that is THE unifying principle in Biology ("Without Evolution, nothing makes sense in Biology" look it up).</p><p>What do expect of a population who are willing to dismiss the counsel of thousands of dedicated scientists and researchers for a few armchair "climate experts" typically who have no experience in their field?</p><p>What do you expect of a population who willingly listen to (and follow) a political party that regularly denigrates the "intellectual elite"?  As if scholarship and achievement are something to be sneered at.</p><p>You know, if this article was entitled "large scale farming moving to China" or "majority of theater productions produced in China" or "new ice hockey champions raised in China" it wouldn't have nearly the same impact.  Why?  Because, sorry to say, these things are LESS important than science and technology.  The Wealth, Prosperity and POWER of our nation depend on this.  Those anti-intellectual "tea partiers" who seek to return us back to the 1800s (1700s)? seem to forget that we are living in the 21st Century and the world is a much much more competitive and complex place.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Let 's face it , we ( mainly ) have no one to blame but OURSELVES.No I do n't mean our politicians , or business leaders or anyone else but US.What do expect of a population that does n't believe in Evolution ?
Something that is THE unifying principle in Biology ( " Without Evolution , nothing makes sense in Biology " look it up ) .What do expect of a population who are willing to dismiss the counsel of thousands of dedicated scientists and researchers for a few armchair " climate experts " typically who have no experience in their field ? What do you expect of a population who willingly listen to ( and follow ) a political party that regularly denigrates the " intellectual elite " ?
As if scholarship and achievement are something to be sneered at.You know , if this article was entitled " large scale farming moving to China " or " majority of theater productions produced in China " or " new ice hockey champions raised in China " it would n't have nearly the same impact .
Why ? Because , sorry to say , these things are LESS important than science and technology .
The Wealth , Prosperity and POWER of our nation depend on this .
Those anti-intellectual " tea partiers " who seek to return us back to the 1800s ( 1700s ) ?
seem to forget that we are living in the 21st Century and the world is a much much more competitive and complex place .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Let's face it, we (mainly) have no one to blame but OURSELVES.No I don't mean our politicians, or business leaders or anyone else but US.What do expect of a population that doesn't believe in Evolution?
Something that is THE unifying principle in Biology ("Without Evolution, nothing makes sense in Biology" look it up).What do expect of a population who are willing to dismiss the counsel of thousands of dedicated scientists and researchers for a few armchair "climate experts" typically who have no experience in their field?What do you expect of a population who willingly listen to (and follow) a political party that regularly denigrates the "intellectual elite"?
As if scholarship and achievement are something to be sneered at.You know, if this article was entitled "large scale farming moving to China" or "majority of theater productions produced in China" or "new ice hockey champions raised in China" it wouldn't have nearly the same impact.
Why?  Because, sorry to say, these things are LESS important than science and technology.
The Wealth, Prosperity and POWER of our nation depend on this.
Those anti-intellectual "tea partiers" who seek to return us back to the 1800s (1700s)?
seem to forget that we are living in the 21st Century and the world is a much much more competitive and complex place.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529808</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530852</id>
	<title>Is It Just Me...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268916420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...or does anyone else think that high level managers and executives are dumbest mother fuckers to ever walk the earth?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...or does anyone else think that high level managers and executives are dumbest mother fuckers to ever walk the earth ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...or does anyone else think that high level managers and executives are dumbest mother fuckers to ever walk the earth?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530674</id>
	<title>Re:War</title>
	<author>Phrogman</author>
	<datestamp>1268915280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What was Lenin or Stalin's quote: "The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we hang them"? or something to that effect.</p><p>Looks like its happening in an economic sense. I fully expect that China will eclipse the US as the most influential superpower in the world, sometime in the next decade or two. They seem to have the initiative, the resources and the willingness.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>What was Lenin or Stalin 's quote : " The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we hang them " ?
or something to that effect.Looks like its happening in an economic sense .
I fully expect that China will eclipse the US as the most influential superpower in the world , sometime in the next decade or two .
They seem to have the initiative , the resources and the willingness .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What was Lenin or Stalin's quote: "The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we hang them"?
or something to that effect.Looks like its happening in an economic sense.
I fully expect that China will eclipse the US as the most influential superpower in the world, sometime in the next decade or two.
They seem to have the initiative, the resources and the willingness.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530010</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31533220</id>
	<title>Re:This is significant.</title>
	<author>StrategicIrony</author>
	<datestamp>1268936940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>as you get closer to the equator, it gets better. Spain is competitive now.</p></div><p>You do know that the SOUTHERN TIP of Spain is at the same latitude as Virginia Beach, right?</p><p>North Carolina is closer to the equator than Spain.  Barcelona is a fair bit north of New York City.</p><p>But yeah, other than that, not a bad post.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>as you get closer to the equator , it gets better .
Spain is competitive now.You do know that the SOUTHERN TIP of Spain is at the same latitude as Virginia Beach , right ? North Carolina is closer to the equator than Spain .
Barcelona is a fair bit north of New York City.But yeah , other than that , not a bad post .
: - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>as you get closer to the equator, it gets better.
Spain is competitive now.You do know that the SOUTHERN TIP of Spain is at the same latitude as Virginia Beach, right?North Carolina is closer to the equator than Spain.
Barcelona is a fair bit north of New York City.But yeah, other than that, not a bad post.
:-)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530770</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530100</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>Beardo the Bearded</author>
	<datestamp>1268911860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I guess the last region to be exploited is Africa. Is it already too late to start buying land?</p></div><p>No, Africa was the <i>first</i> to be exploited.  It's where we dragged ourselves out of the ditch and down from the trees.  Somalia was once home to the biggest superpower in the world.  That doesn't mean we're looking at the decline of the Americans.  What you're seeing is the emergence of evil sociopaths.  The only acceptable measure is how much of a bonus you are making right now, the plebians be damned.  That's not enough to end your country.  America's strength was always the "fuck it, let's do it anyway" attitude.</p><p>Revolt from England?  Impossible.  American response?  "Fuck it, let's do it anyway."</p><p>HTA flight?  Impossible.  American response?  "Fuck it, let's do it anyway."</p><p>Atomics?  Impossible.  American response?  "Fuck it, let's do it anyway."</p><p>The moon?  Impossible.  American response?  "Fuck it, let's do it anyway."</p><p>Remain as the intellectual development centre of the world?  Impossible.  American response?  "Fuck it, let's do it anyway."</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I guess the last region to be exploited is Africa .
Is it already too late to start buying land ? No , Africa was the first to be exploited .
It 's where we dragged ourselves out of the ditch and down from the trees .
Somalia was once home to the biggest superpower in the world .
That does n't mean we 're looking at the decline of the Americans .
What you 're seeing is the emergence of evil sociopaths .
The only acceptable measure is how much of a bonus you are making right now , the plebians be damned .
That 's not enough to end your country .
America 's strength was always the " fuck it , let 's do it anyway " attitude.Revolt from England ?
Impossible. American response ?
" Fuck it , let 's do it anyway .
" HTA flight ?
Impossible. American response ?
" Fuck it , let 's do it anyway. " Atomics ?
Impossible. American response ?
" Fuck it , let 's do it anyway .
" The moon ?
Impossible. American response ?
" Fuck it , let 's do it anyway .
" Remain as the intellectual development centre of the world ?
Impossible. American response ?
" Fuck it , let 's do it anyway .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I guess the last region to be exploited is Africa.
Is it already too late to start buying land?No, Africa was the first to be exploited.
It's where we dragged ourselves out of the ditch and down from the trees.
Somalia was once home to the biggest superpower in the world.
That doesn't mean we're looking at the decline of the Americans.
What you're seeing is the emergence of evil sociopaths.
The only acceptable measure is how much of a bonus you are making right now, the plebians be damned.
That's not enough to end your country.
America's strength was always the "fuck it, let's do it anyway" attitude.Revolt from England?
Impossible.  American response?
"Fuck it, let's do it anyway.
"HTA flight?
Impossible.  American response?
"Fuck it, let's do it anyway."Atomics?
Impossible.  American response?
"Fuck it, let's do it anyway.
"The moon?
Impossible.  American response?
"Fuck it, let's do it anyway.
"Remain as the intellectual development centre of the world?
Impossible.  American response?
"Fuck it, let's do it anyway.
"
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529796</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531916</id>
	<title>Pure capitalism, don't stop now</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268924280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Pure capitalism says "Good job, this is wonderful and excellent for the markets".  So don't stop now.  The US government was damn cheerful to make individual citizens suffer at the hands of corporations, declaring "free market capitalism will solve all of this".  Its the same with health care "free market capitalism will solve all of this".  Hundreds of millions of unemployed Americans, a US government unable to keep with Chinese technology, Amercian companies having to pay China outrageous fees for their intellectual property (once you make rules and start clubbing others with it, they can make a similar club and start clubbing you right back).  China has 1.1 million people.  Not all of them are dumb.  They have their fair share of engineers, doctors and Einsteins, based on their population (3 times as large as the US).  And they have inertia and momentum on their side and much growth, and the US is flat footed with little to sell, a flat domestic economy, and a mountain of debt (mostly owned by China).  At some point, they will call in the debts.  Capitalism says 'all is well' so there better not be any dumb-ass republicans mouthing off about how Chinas rise at America's expense is a bad thing.  Mind you, communist leaders have always said that capitalists will sell communists a rope that the communists will hang the capitalists with.  Don't worry, the Chinese have a stock market too.  You just have to be Chinese to play.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Pure capitalism says " Good job , this is wonderful and excellent for the markets " .
So do n't stop now .
The US government was damn cheerful to make individual citizens suffer at the hands of corporations , declaring " free market capitalism will solve all of this " .
Its the same with health care " free market capitalism will solve all of this " .
Hundreds of millions of unemployed Americans , a US government unable to keep with Chinese technology , Amercian companies having to pay China outrageous fees for their intellectual property ( once you make rules and start clubbing others with it , they can make a similar club and start clubbing you right back ) .
China has 1.1 million people .
Not all of them are dumb .
They have their fair share of engineers , doctors and Einsteins , based on their population ( 3 times as large as the US ) .
And they have inertia and momentum on their side and much growth , and the US is flat footed with little to sell , a flat domestic economy , and a mountain of debt ( mostly owned by China ) .
At some point , they will call in the debts .
Capitalism says 'all is well ' so there better not be any dumb-ass republicans mouthing off about how Chinas rise at America 's expense is a bad thing .
Mind you , communist leaders have always said that capitalists will sell communists a rope that the communists will hang the capitalists with .
Do n't worry , the Chinese have a stock market too .
You just have to be Chinese to play .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Pure capitalism says "Good job, this is wonderful and excellent for the markets".
So don't stop now.
The US government was damn cheerful to make individual citizens suffer at the hands of corporations, declaring "free market capitalism will solve all of this".
Its the same with health care "free market capitalism will solve all of this".
Hundreds of millions of unemployed Americans, a US government unable to keep with Chinese technology, Amercian companies having to pay China outrageous fees for their intellectual property (once you make rules and start clubbing others with it, they can make a similar club and start clubbing you right back).
China has 1.1 million people.
Not all of them are dumb.
They have their fair share of engineers, doctors and Einsteins, based on their population (3 times as large as the US).
And they have inertia and momentum on their side and much growth, and the US is flat footed with little to sell, a flat domestic economy, and a mountain of debt (mostly owned by China).
At some point, they will call in the debts.
Capitalism says 'all is well' so there better not be any dumb-ass republicans mouthing off about how Chinas rise at America's expense is a bad thing.
Mind you, communist leaders have always said that capitalists will sell communists a rope that the communists will hang the capitalists with.
Don't worry, the Chinese have a stock market too.
You just have to be Chinese to play.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530262</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268912820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>History repeats itself. Why the hell should American raw materials be shipped all the way to Jolly Old England to be taxed and manufactured into finished goods that are shipped all the way back to the US, for a huge mark up (and more taxes)? Not so fun when you're on the other end, is it?</p></div></blockquote><p>And yet today, despite America running away from Jolly Old England, England still has commerce, industry, and status as a First World nation.  With all the similarities, why would anyone expect that a transition to Chinese dominance in technology to change America's situation any differently than England's was changed?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>History repeats itself .
Why the hell should American raw materials be shipped all the way to Jolly Old England to be taxed and manufactured into finished goods that are shipped all the way back to the US , for a huge mark up ( and more taxes ) ?
Not so fun when you 're on the other end , is it ? And yet today , despite America running away from Jolly Old England , England still has commerce , industry , and status as a First World nation .
With all the similarities , why would anyone expect that a transition to Chinese dominance in technology to change America 's situation any differently than England 's was changed ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>History repeats itself.
Why the hell should American raw materials be shipped all the way to Jolly Old England to be taxed and manufactured into finished goods that are shipped all the way back to the US, for a huge mark up (and more taxes)?
Not so fun when you're on the other end, is it?And yet today, despite America running away from Jolly Old England, England still has commerce, industry, and status as a First World nation.
With all the similarities, why would anyone expect that a transition to Chinese dominance in technology to change America's situation any differently than England's was changed?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529796</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31532792</id>
	<title>nah theis is all bullshit</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268932320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>coz teh</i> man said India was going to be the world's next super power?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>coz teh man said India was going to be the world 's next super power ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>coz teh man said India was going to be the world's next super power?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31533258</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>mochan\_s</author>
	<datestamp>1268937600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I keep telling people that globalization leads to a flatter market. The problem is that even distribution of wealth means that the 3rd world improves a little and the 1st world declines a LOT.</p></div></blockquote><p>Nothing frightens Americans more than "economy".

</p><p>What is wealth specifically? The infrastructure, the fuel, the stuff we buy? I can see a competition for fuel but letting a billion people into modern technology might also produce a new innovation that will make new energy methods.

</p><p>Look at food. We were supposed to run out of food but innovation keeps happening and there are newer ways to grow more food, faster. There is no reason why it won't happen with energy.

</p><p>As for infrastructure, I wish the whole world has great infrastructure and great purchasing power. It would mean less people in poverty and subsistence and more artists, scientists, engineers etc in the world.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I keep telling people that globalization leads to a flatter market .
The problem is that even distribution of wealth means that the 3rd world improves a little and the 1st world declines a LOT.Nothing frightens Americans more than " economy " .
What is wealth specifically ?
The infrastructure , the fuel , the stuff we buy ?
I can see a competition for fuel but letting a billion people into modern technology might also produce a new innovation that will make new energy methods .
Look at food .
We were supposed to run out of food but innovation keeps happening and there are newer ways to grow more food , faster .
There is no reason why it wo n't happen with energy .
As for infrastructure , I wish the whole world has great infrastructure and great purchasing power .
It would mean less people in poverty and subsistence and more artists , scientists , engineers etc in the world .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I keep telling people that globalization leads to a flatter market.
The problem is that even distribution of wealth means that the 3rd world improves a little and the 1st world declines a LOT.Nothing frightens Americans more than "economy".
What is wealth specifically?
The infrastructure, the fuel, the stuff we buy?
I can see a competition for fuel but letting a billion people into modern technology might also produce a new innovation that will make new energy methods.
Look at food.
We were supposed to run out of food but innovation keeps happening and there are newer ways to grow more food, faster.
There is no reason why it won't happen with energy.
As for infrastructure, I wish the whole world has great infrastructure and great purchasing power.
It would mean less people in poverty and subsistence and more artists, scientists, engineers etc in the world.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530050</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530614</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>shutdown -p now</author>
	<datestamp>1268914980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>HTA flight? Impossible. American response? "Fuck it, let's do it anyway."</p><p>Atomics? Impossible. American response? "Fuck it, let's do it anyway."</p><p>The moon? Impossible. American response? "Fuck it, let's do it anyway."</p></div><p>On all those points, you're wrong. While there have definitely been skeptics saying "this is impossible" on every one of them, those people were of all nationalities, including Americans. At the same time, visionaries - also of all nationalities - were working on solutions to those problems. Sometimes American ones happened to be the first at something, sometimes it was someone else - but for practically any invention, by the time someone claimed a "first", a few more people elsewhere in the world were in final stages of developing the same thing as well.</p><p>Specifically, Americans were first to build nukes because they've gathered most and brightest scientists from all over the world to work on this problem. Americans were the first on the moon because the USSR got overstrained by the Space Race, and pretty much dropped out. Americans <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John\_Stringfellow" title="wikipedia.org">were even not the first</a> [wikipedia.org] to perform a powered, heavier-than-air flight.</p><p>Of course, one could just as easily assemble a similarly meaningless list with a few points that would demonstrate how the USSR was an "intellectual development centre of the world". I shall leave drawing far-fetched conclusions from that as an exercise to the reader.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>HTA flight ?
Impossible. American response ?
" Fuck it , let 's do it anyway. " Atomics ?
Impossible. American response ?
" Fuck it , let 's do it anyway .
" The moon ?
Impossible. American response ?
" Fuck it , let 's do it anyway .
" On all those points , you 're wrong .
While there have definitely been skeptics saying " this is impossible " on every one of them , those people were of all nationalities , including Americans .
At the same time , visionaries - also of all nationalities - were working on solutions to those problems .
Sometimes American ones happened to be the first at something , sometimes it was someone else - but for practically any invention , by the time someone claimed a " first " , a few more people elsewhere in the world were in final stages of developing the same thing as well.Specifically , Americans were first to build nukes because they 've gathered most and brightest scientists from all over the world to work on this problem .
Americans were the first on the moon because the USSR got overstrained by the Space Race , and pretty much dropped out .
Americans were even not the first [ wikipedia.org ] to perform a powered , heavier-than-air flight.Of course , one could just as easily assemble a similarly meaningless list with a few points that would demonstrate how the USSR was an " intellectual development centre of the world " .
I shall leave drawing far-fetched conclusions from that as an exercise to the reader .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>HTA flight?
Impossible. American response?
"Fuck it, let's do it anyway."Atomics?
Impossible. American response?
"Fuck it, let's do it anyway.
"The moon?
Impossible. American response?
"Fuck it, let's do it anyway.
"On all those points, you're wrong.
While there have definitely been skeptics saying "this is impossible" on every one of them, those people were of all nationalities, including Americans.
At the same time, visionaries - also of all nationalities - were working on solutions to those problems.
Sometimes American ones happened to be the first at something, sometimes it was someone else - but for practically any invention, by the time someone claimed a "first", a few more people elsewhere in the world were in final stages of developing the same thing as well.Specifically, Americans were first to build nukes because they've gathered most and brightest scientists from all over the world to work on this problem.
Americans were the first on the moon because the USSR got overstrained by the Space Race, and pretty much dropped out.
Americans were even not the first [wikipedia.org] to perform a powered, heavier-than-air flight.Of course, one could just as easily assemble a similarly meaningless list with a few points that would demonstrate how the USSR was an "intellectual development centre of the world".
I shall leave drawing far-fetched conclusions from that as an exercise to the reader.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530100</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31532056</id>
	<title>Re:Western and Eastern educations are not equivale</title>
	<author>BlueBoxSW.com</author>
	<datestamp>1268925720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Interesting. I never thought of it that way.</p><p>I managed a group that was heavily indian years back, mostly here on visas, whle the client did a more formal search for a CTO. I wasn't all that impressed with their skills. The two lead programmers, one indian and one russian, did 90\% of the work, while the rest had a hard time finishing simple development tasks.</p><p>What struck me was the inability to understand a problem unless it had been broken down into formal requirements. They didn't understand anything about business needs, users needs, interface considerations, or work flow. They just knew how translate what was essentially pseudo-code into actual code.</p><p>I didn't ask them about this directly, but in talking about what education they did have, the colleges they went to only gave them classes in their main topic of study. They didn't balance things out with other mandatory classes in other areas.</p><p>It kind of gave me more of an appreciation for the liberals arts side of my degrees.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Interesting .
I never thought of it that way.I managed a group that was heavily indian years back , mostly here on visas , whle the client did a more formal search for a CTO .
I was n't all that impressed with their skills .
The two lead programmers , one indian and one russian , did 90 \ % of the work , while the rest had a hard time finishing simple development tasks.What struck me was the inability to understand a problem unless it had been broken down into formal requirements .
They did n't understand anything about business needs , users needs , interface considerations , or work flow .
They just knew how translate what was essentially pseudo-code into actual code.I did n't ask them about this directly , but in talking about what education they did have , the colleges they went to only gave them classes in their main topic of study .
They did n't balance things out with other mandatory classes in other areas.It kind of gave me more of an appreciation for the liberals arts side of my degrees .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Interesting.
I never thought of it that way.I managed a group that was heavily indian years back, mostly here on visas, whle the client did a more formal search for a CTO.
I wasn't all that impressed with their skills.
The two lead programmers, one indian and one russian, did 90\% of the work, while the rest had a hard time finishing simple development tasks.What struck me was the inability to understand a problem unless it had been broken down into formal requirements.
They didn't understand anything about business needs, users needs, interface considerations, or work flow.
They just knew how translate what was essentially pseudo-code into actual code.I didn't ask them about this directly, but in talking about what education they did have, the colleges they went to only gave them classes in their main topic of study.
They didn't balance things out with other mandatory classes in other areas.It kind of gave me more of an appreciation for the liberals arts side of my degrees.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530798</id>
	<title>Re:Good job</title>
	<author>loners</author>
	<datestamp>1268916060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If the poor people didn't feel they were entitled to a really high paying job for little work, there wouldn't be a need for unskilled labor in the US.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If the poor people did n't feel they were entitled to a really high paying job for little work , there would n't be a need for unskilled labor in the US .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the poor people didn't feel they were entitled to a really high paying job for little work, there wouldn't be a need for unskilled labor in the US.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530606</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531762</id>
	<title>Business has seen the future. It's not democracy.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268922960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You better start fighting for it now because you sure ain't gonna be able to later. The business world has seen what works and it sure ain't democracy or human rights.</p><p>They have eyed China's corporate state and have fallen in love. It is a dark future.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You better start fighting for it now because you sure ai n't gon na be able to later .
The business world has seen what works and it sure ai n't democracy or human rights.They have eyed China 's corporate state and have fallen in love .
It is a dark future .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You better start fighting for it now because you sure ain't gonna be able to later.
The business world has seen what works and it sure ain't democracy or human rights.They have eyed China's corporate state and have fallen in love.
It is a dark future.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31535462</id>
	<title>Re:Let a 50 year old Engineer tell you something</title>
	<author>pkphilip</author>
	<datestamp>1269008220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Thank you. Great post.</p><p>There are a number of organisations in both India and China doing considerable amount of research. However, both these nations have had trouble finding enough people who have experience in taking a product from the concept stage to the manufactured and shipping stage.</p><p>India, for example, has been good at making satellites because satellites are essentially one-off pieces put together in a lab by scientists. But India has had very limited success in manufacturing missiles, tanks, planes despite having original designs for decades.</p><p>That is because creating one-off pieces for demonstration is easy.. now arriving at a plan for how a prototype could be finally manufactured in volume is a whole different game altogether.</p><p>You can't learn this in a university - a lot of this stuff has to be learnt on the job.. while manufacturing things.. a lot of trial and error will be involved.</p><p>When you start to ship off all the manufacturing to China and India, you will remove these opportunities for learning from the US. This will severely impede US's abilities to innovate.</p><p>I speak this as an Indian who has seen the decline in R&amp;D capabilities in the west over the past 10-15 years.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Thank you .
Great post.There are a number of organisations in both India and China doing considerable amount of research .
However , both these nations have had trouble finding enough people who have experience in taking a product from the concept stage to the manufactured and shipping stage.India , for example , has been good at making satellites because satellites are essentially one-off pieces put together in a lab by scientists .
But India has had very limited success in manufacturing missiles , tanks , planes despite having original designs for decades.That is because creating one-off pieces for demonstration is easy.. now arriving at a plan for how a prototype could be finally manufactured in volume is a whole different game altogether.You ca n't learn this in a university - a lot of this stuff has to be learnt on the job.. while manufacturing things.. a lot of trial and error will be involved.When you start to ship off all the manufacturing to China and India , you will remove these opportunities for learning from the US .
This will severely impede US 's abilities to innovate.I speak this as an Indian who has seen the decline in R&amp;D capabilities in the west over the past 10-15 years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thank you.
Great post.There are a number of organisations in both India and China doing considerable amount of research.
However, both these nations have had trouble finding enough people who have experience in taking a product from the concept stage to the manufactured and shipping stage.India, for example, has been good at making satellites because satellites are essentially one-off pieces put together in a lab by scientists.
But India has had very limited success in manufacturing missiles, tanks, planes despite having original designs for decades.That is because creating one-off pieces for demonstration is easy.. now arriving at a plan for how a prototype could be finally manufactured in volume is a whole different game altogether.You can't learn this in a university - a lot of this stuff has to be learnt on the job.. while manufacturing things.. a lot of trial and error will be involved.When you start to ship off all the manufacturing to China and India, you will remove these opportunities for learning from the US.
This will severely impede US's abilities to innovate.I speak this as an Indian who has seen the decline in R&amp;D capabilities in the west over the past 10-15 years.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530788</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530430</id>
	<title>No business, all pleasure</title>
	<author>Drunkulus</author>
	<datestamp>1268913840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've seen this sort of thing up close, and it always results in executives tripping over themselves for trips to Asia to "manage the team", meaning playing golf and bar hopping with local women.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've seen this sort of thing up close , and it always results in executives tripping over themselves for trips to Asia to " manage the team " , meaning playing golf and bar hopping with local women .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've seen this sort of thing up close, and it always results in executives tripping over themselves for trips to Asia to "manage the team", meaning playing golf and bar hopping with local women.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31533990</id>
	<title>Re:Good job</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268994060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have lived in California. I will not return. Seriously, Californians are a bunch of stuck-up, pedantic, greedy, superficial and emotionally cold people. And I say that as a German...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have lived in California .
I will not return .
Seriously , Californians are a bunch of stuck-up , pedantic , greedy , superficial and emotionally cold people .
And I say that as a German.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have lived in California.
I will not return.
Seriously, Californians are a bunch of stuck-up, pedantic, greedy, superficial and emotionally cold people.
And I say that as a German...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531142</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>TheSync</author>
	<datestamp>1268918340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>I guess the last region to be exploited is Africa. Is it already too late to start buying land?</i></p><p>Land ownership in many African countries is not well respected by the governments.  For instance, in Ethiopia most farmers don't own their land, the government does.</p><p>Someone I know was running a surface gold mine in a West African country which was expropriated by the government, so he left.</p><p>A large corporation could probably bribe an African government into purchasing land, and then keep bribing them to keep it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I guess the last region to be exploited is Africa .
Is it already too late to start buying land ? Land ownership in many African countries is not well respected by the governments .
For instance , in Ethiopia most farmers do n't own their land , the government does.Someone I know was running a surface gold mine in a West African country which was expropriated by the government , so he left.A large corporation could probably bribe an African government into purchasing land , and then keep bribing them to keep it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I guess the last region to be exploited is Africa.
Is it already too late to start buying land?Land ownership in many African countries is not well respected by the governments.
For instance, in Ethiopia most farmers don't own their land, the government does.Someone I know was running a surface gold mine in a West African country which was expropriated by the government, so he left.A large corporation could probably bribe an African government into purchasing land, and then keep bribing them to keep it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530034</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31532156</id>
	<title>Re:Good job</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268926680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Exactly.  I'm all for extremely easy immigration for skilled workers.  I am however against letting in unskilled people - no, it's not because I think I'm better than them, it's because we already have more than enough poor people that we don't need to be importing any.</p></div><p>Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Exactly .
I 'm all for extremely easy immigration for skilled workers .
I am however against letting in unskilled people - no , it 's not because I think I 'm better than them , it 's because we already have more than enough poor people that we do n't need to be importing any.Give me your tired , your poor , Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Exactly.
I'm all for extremely easy immigration for skilled workers.
I am however against letting in unskilled people - no, it's not because I think I'm better than them, it's because we already have more than enough poor people that we don't need to be importing any.Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530606</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530770</id>
	<title>This is significant.</title>
	<author>Animats</author>
	<datestamp>1268915880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
Understand what Applied Materials does. They're a leading manufacturer of semiconductor manufacturing equipment.  Your CPU was probably made in a fab equipped with Applied Materials equipment. Applied Materials itself does not make ICs or solar panels.
</p><p>
Until recently, most high-end ICs were designed in the US or Japan and manufactured with US or Japanese equipment. That's changing; more consumer electronics parts are being designed in China. There are some good Chinese chip design houses. Although
they're not yet up to doing a state of the art superscalar CPU, they can do most smaller parts.
</p><p>
I've met the head of Applied Materials's solar division, who is one of the more sensible people in the solar energy field.  For him, it's all about installed cost per KWh per year.  He shows charts of where the cost has to be to compete with other energy sources without subsidies.  (This changes with latitude; as you get closer to the equator, it gets better. Spain is competitive now.)  Most of the people in "alternative energy" are asking for subsidies, but Applied Materials recognizes that to really make a success of solar, it has to compete without subsidies.  So, unlike the firms making noise about getting costs down (Nanosolar, etc.) but not actually shipping much, Applied Materials is really doing it.
</p><p>
A point made by the Applied Materials guy is that the cost of installation needs to come way down. Right now, installation costs are about half the cost of a solar installation on a building. It's "a guy with a pickup truck", he says.  That needs to come way down.  Solar panels shouldn't be placed on roofs; they should <i>be</i> the roof.  This requires roof designs where a section can be either a solar panel or a plain roof, and all the seams are weathertight.  There's a big payoff for getting this
right.  The cost of installation goes way down, the panels are less likely to be pulled off in wind storms, and the wiring is under the roof, which simplifies connecting the panels.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Understand what Applied Materials does .
They 're a leading manufacturer of semiconductor manufacturing equipment .
Your CPU was probably made in a fab equipped with Applied Materials equipment .
Applied Materials itself does not make ICs or solar panels .
Until recently , most high-end ICs were designed in the US or Japan and manufactured with US or Japanese equipment .
That 's changing ; more consumer electronics parts are being designed in China .
There are some good Chinese chip design houses .
Although they 're not yet up to doing a state of the art superscalar CPU , they can do most smaller parts .
I 've met the head of Applied Materials 's solar division , who is one of the more sensible people in the solar energy field .
For him , it 's all about installed cost per KWh per year .
He shows charts of where the cost has to be to compete with other energy sources without subsidies .
( This changes with latitude ; as you get closer to the equator , it gets better .
Spain is competitive now .
) Most of the people in " alternative energy " are asking for subsidies , but Applied Materials recognizes that to really make a success of solar , it has to compete without subsidies .
So , unlike the firms making noise about getting costs down ( Nanosolar , etc .
) but not actually shipping much , Applied Materials is really doing it .
A point made by the Applied Materials guy is that the cost of installation needs to come way down .
Right now , installation costs are about half the cost of a solar installation on a building .
It 's " a guy with a pickup truck " , he says .
That needs to come way down .
Solar panels should n't be placed on roofs ; they should be the roof .
This requires roof designs where a section can be either a solar panel or a plain roof , and all the seams are weathertight .
There 's a big payoff for getting this right .
The cost of installation goes way down , the panels are less likely to be pulled off in wind storms , and the wiring is under the roof , which simplifies connecting the panels .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
Understand what Applied Materials does.
They're a leading manufacturer of semiconductor manufacturing equipment.
Your CPU was probably made in a fab equipped with Applied Materials equipment.
Applied Materials itself does not make ICs or solar panels.
Until recently, most high-end ICs were designed in the US or Japan and manufactured with US or Japanese equipment.
That's changing; more consumer electronics parts are being designed in China.
There are some good Chinese chip design houses.
Although
they're not yet up to doing a state of the art superscalar CPU, they can do most smaller parts.
I've met the head of Applied Materials's solar division, who is one of the more sensible people in the solar energy field.
For him, it's all about installed cost per KWh per year.
He shows charts of where the cost has to be to compete with other energy sources without subsidies.
(This changes with latitude; as you get closer to the equator, it gets better.
Spain is competitive now.
)  Most of the people in "alternative energy" are asking for subsidies, but Applied Materials recognizes that to really make a success of solar, it has to compete without subsidies.
So, unlike the firms making noise about getting costs down (Nanosolar, etc.
) but not actually shipping much, Applied Materials is really doing it.
A point made by the Applied Materials guy is that the cost of installation needs to come way down.
Right now, installation costs are about half the cost of a solar installation on a building.
It's "a guy with a pickup truck", he says.
That needs to come way down.
Solar panels shouldn't be placed on roofs; they should be the roof.
This requires roof designs where a section can be either a solar panel or a plain roof, and all the seams are weathertight.
There's a big payoff for getting this
right.
The cost of installation goes way down, the panels are less likely to be pulled off in wind storms, and the wiring is under the roof, which simplifies connecting the panels.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531796</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268923200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The problem is that even distribution of wealth means that the 3rd world improves a little and the 1st world declines a LOT</p></div><p>B.S.  We had the means of production, just because we have free markets does not mean that as the rest of the world grows its own means of production that we somehow suffer.  Given unchanging means of production, our standard of living would not change one bit.  Economics is not a zero sum game, as you make it out to be.</p><p>The problem is that the U.S. government and the unions are cannibalizing our capital and forcing the capital investment overseas.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is that even distribution of wealth means that the 3rd world improves a little and the 1st world declines a LOTB.S .
We had the means of production , just because we have free markets does not mean that as the rest of the world grows its own means of production that we somehow suffer .
Given unchanging means of production , our standard of living would not change one bit .
Economics is not a zero sum game , as you make it out to be.The problem is that the U.S. government and the unions are cannibalizing our capital and forcing the capital investment overseas .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is that even distribution of wealth means that the 3rd world improves a little and the 1st world declines a LOTB.S.
We had the means of production, just because we have free markets does not mean that as the rest of the world grows its own means of production that we somehow suffer.
Given unchanging means of production, our standard of living would not change one bit.
Economics is not a zero sum game, as you make it out to be.The problem is that the U.S. government and the unions are cannibalizing our capital and forcing the capital investment overseas.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530050</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530076</id>
	<title>Not surprising</title>
	<author>Raconteur</author>
	<datestamp>1268911800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>that a company whose products require massive amounts of rare earths and whose manufacturing processes produce noxious effluent would locate in China. Good riddance, but the global effects also need to be taken into consideration.</htmltext>
<tokenext>that a company whose products require massive amounts of rare earths and whose manufacturing processes produce noxious effluent would locate in China .
Good riddance , but the global effects also need to be taken into consideration .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>that a company whose products require massive amounts of rare earths and whose manufacturing processes produce noxious effluent would locate in China.
Good riddance, but the global effects also need to be taken into consideration.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531712</id>
	<title>Re:Western and Eastern educations are not equivale</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268922540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wait, so you're saying our educational system DOESN'T revolve around the memorization and regurgitation of facts?</p><p>What country did you go to school in, exactly?  Because there is absolutely no way that it was the United States.  They resort to aptitude tests?  You mean like SOLs and SATs?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Wait , so you 're saying our educational system DOES N'T revolve around the memorization and regurgitation of facts ? What country did you go to school in , exactly ?
Because there is absolutely no way that it was the United States .
They resort to aptitude tests ?
You mean like SOLs and SATs ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wait, so you're saying our educational system DOESN'T revolve around the memorization and regurgitation of facts?What country did you go to school in, exactly?
Because there is absolutely no way that it was the United States.
They resort to aptitude tests?
You mean like SOLs and SATs?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529892</id>
	<title>Re:Good job</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268910900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>This is what happens when you try to be smart ass and move all of your work load to other countries because it's supposedly cheaper. Good job.</p></div><p>It didnt have to be this way - the primary reason for setting up shop somewhere is access to labor. If we had made it easy for the smart chinese and indians to stay here - then research bases would be here and only manufacturing would move. So until immigration is made simpler for smarter immigrants, companies will need to keep going abroad.</p><p>If I can get a PhD for $60K in china and $120K in US, it makes sense to stay in the US due to transactional costs, transition costs, problems with chinese govt. etc., but if you make the numbers closer to $180K in US + lots of people bad mouthing you for hiring people on H1Bs.. well....take the whole dept. there.</p><p>Saying no to H1Bs etc. does not necessarily get americans hired - it just forces complete departments to be outsourced.Why keep IT here - when you can have the whole thing in Mumbai or Bangalore ?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is what happens when you try to be smart ass and move all of your work load to other countries because it 's supposedly cheaper .
Good job.It didnt have to be this way - the primary reason for setting up shop somewhere is access to labor .
If we had made it easy for the smart chinese and indians to stay here - then research bases would be here and only manufacturing would move .
So until immigration is made simpler for smarter immigrants , companies will need to keep going abroad.If I can get a PhD for $ 60K in china and $ 120K in US , it makes sense to stay in the US due to transactional costs , transition costs , problems with chinese govt .
etc. , but if you make the numbers closer to $ 180K in US + lots of people bad mouthing you for hiring people on H1Bs.. well....take the whole dept .
there.Saying no to H1Bs etc .
does not necessarily get americans hired - it just forces complete departments to be outsourced.Why keep IT here - when you can have the whole thing in Mumbai or Bangalore ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is what happens when you try to be smart ass and move all of your work load to other countries because it's supposedly cheaper.
Good job.It didnt have to be this way - the primary reason for setting up shop somewhere is access to labor.
If we had made it easy for the smart chinese and indians to stay here - then research bases would be here and only manufacturing would move.
So until immigration is made simpler for smarter immigrants, companies will need to keep going abroad.If I can get a PhD for $60K in china and $120K in US, it makes sense to stay in the US due to transactional costs, transition costs, problems with chinese govt.
etc., but if you make the numbers closer to $180K in US + lots of people bad mouthing you for hiring people on H1Bs.. well....take the whole dept.
there.Saying no to H1Bs etc.
does not necessarily get americans hired - it just forces complete departments to be outsourced.Why keep IT here - when you can have the whole thing in Mumbai or Bangalore ?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529688</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530324</id>
	<title>Re:I wonder what will happen in the long run?</title>
	<author>TheGratefulNet</author>
	<datestamp>1268913180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>you have that right, the US will lose on 'thinking arts' and be forced to return to physical things; stuff that *cannot* be done remotely.</p><p>if I had kids going to college, I would NOT have them be training for 'thinking jobs' like software engineering, electrical engineering, mech (etc).  people who work with their hands will *never* be out of work if they're any good.</p><p>but 'thinkers': that is being shifted to india (english speaking country, mostly, really helps this) and then when that has run its course, to other countries.  no one 'owns' their position for too long, its how nature is, afterall.</p><p>I would advise kids today not to bank on the 'thinking arts' to keep them in work and paying the rent.  I say this sadly but I've seen things change too much over the past half century or so..  the world truly has shifted and the US is no longer what it once was<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;(</p><p>prepare yourselves and study a real physical occupation and not one that is 'virtualizeable'.  you will lose that fight, guaranteed (we in the west simply cannot compete on the world scale in terms of our cost of living vs theirs).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>you have that right , the US will lose on 'thinking arts ' and be forced to return to physical things ; stuff that * can not * be done remotely.if I had kids going to college , I would NOT have them be training for 'thinking jobs ' like software engineering , electrical engineering , mech ( etc ) .
people who work with their hands will * never * be out of work if they 're any good.but 'thinkers ' : that is being shifted to india ( english speaking country , mostly , really helps this ) and then when that has run its course , to other countries .
no one 'owns ' their position for too long , its how nature is , afterall.I would advise kids today not to bank on the 'thinking arts ' to keep them in work and paying the rent .
I say this sadly but I 've seen things change too much over the past half century or so.. the world truly has shifted and the US is no longer what it once was ; ( prepare yourselves and study a real physical occupation and not one that is 'virtualizeable' .
you will lose that fight , guaranteed ( we in the west simply can not compete on the world scale in terms of our cost of living vs theirs ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>you have that right, the US will lose on 'thinking arts' and be forced to return to physical things; stuff that *cannot* be done remotely.if I had kids going to college, I would NOT have them be training for 'thinking jobs' like software engineering, electrical engineering, mech (etc).
people who work with their hands will *never* be out of work if they're any good.but 'thinkers': that is being shifted to india (english speaking country, mostly, really helps this) and then when that has run its course, to other countries.
no one 'owns' their position for too long, its how nature is, afterall.I would advise kids today not to bank on the 'thinking arts' to keep them in work and paying the rent.
I say this sadly but I've seen things change too much over the past half century or so..  the world truly has shifted and the US is no longer what it once was ;(prepare yourselves and study a real physical occupation and not one that is 'virtualizeable'.
you will lose that fight, guaranteed (we in the west simply cannot compete on the world scale in terms of our cost of living vs theirs).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529824</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531072</id>
	<title>Re:America has something better</title>
	<author>nnnnnnn</author>
	<datestamp>1268917920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you had left out "ok, we're fucked." I would be in such a good mood right now.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you had left out " ok , we 're fucked .
" I would be in such a good mood right now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you had left out "ok, we're fucked.
" I would be in such a good mood right now.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529838</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31541020</id>
	<title>Re:America the new 3rd World</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269024480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Even the Chinese disagree.</p><p>Dai Xu (http://blog.sina.com.cn/daixu2010), a Chinese military strategist, convincingly argues that China is nothing but America's cheap labor. China is even financing the US to exploit it. He counted that out of the 28 strategic industries in China (e.g., IT, Aerospace, Energy) where China used to have some sort of ability of self-developing, US managed to kill at least 21 with cheaper but more advanced imports, therefore are now 100\% dependent on the US. As for GDP, Dai argued that in 1840 just before the Opium War, China's GDP was estimated as about 1/3 of the world's total GDP, yet who kicked whose ass? Even if China's GDP surpasses that of US again in 20 years, there's nothing to be prond of because China's GDP is of much lower quality.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Even the Chinese disagree.Dai Xu ( http : //blog.sina.com.cn/daixu2010 ) , a Chinese military strategist , convincingly argues that China is nothing but America 's cheap labor .
China is even financing the US to exploit it .
He counted that out of the 28 strategic industries in China ( e.g. , IT , Aerospace , Energy ) where China used to have some sort of ability of self-developing , US managed to kill at least 21 with cheaper but more advanced imports , therefore are now 100 \ % dependent on the US .
As for GDP , Dai argued that in 1840 just before the Opium War , China 's GDP was estimated as about 1/3 of the world 's total GDP , yet who kicked whose ass ?
Even if China 's GDP surpasses that of US again in 20 years , there 's nothing to be prond of because China 's GDP is of much lower quality .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Even the Chinese disagree.Dai Xu (http://blog.sina.com.cn/daixu2010), a Chinese military strategist, convincingly argues that China is nothing but America's cheap labor.
China is even financing the US to exploit it.
He counted that out of the 28 strategic industries in China (e.g., IT, Aerospace, Energy) where China used to have some sort of ability of self-developing, US managed to kill at least 21 with cheaper but more advanced imports, therefore are now 100\% dependent on the US.
As for GDP, Dai argued that in 1840 just before the Opium War, China's GDP was estimated as about 1/3 of the world's total GDP, yet who kicked whose ass?
Even if China's GDP surpasses that of US again in 20 years, there's nothing to be prond of because China's GDP is of much lower quality.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529808</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31534582</id>
	<title>'highly skilled'</title>
	<author>ThatsNotPudding</author>
	<datestamp>1269002160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>huge reservoirs of cheap, highly skilled engineers</p></div></blockquote><p>Please keep in mind that China (along with other countries such as the UK) allow just about everyone this side of toaster oven repairmen to called 'engineers'.  Yes, most of the Engineering grad students at my US alma mater were Chinese, but I think that's why they were in the US, not back home.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>huge reservoirs of cheap , highly skilled engineersPlease keep in mind that China ( along with other countries such as the UK ) allow just about everyone this side of toaster oven repairmen to called 'engineers' .
Yes , most of the Engineering grad students at my US alma mater were Chinese , but I think that 's why they were in the US , not back home .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>huge reservoirs of cheap, highly skilled engineersPlease keep in mind that China (along with other countries such as the UK) allow just about everyone this side of toaster oven repairmen to called 'engineers'.
Yes, most of the Engineering grad students at my US alma mater were Chinese, but I think that's why they were in the US, not back home.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531542</id>
	<title>Respecting Hayek but moving beyond him...</title>
	<author>Paul Fernhout</author>
	<datestamp>1268921040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What about when consumers can buy nanotech 3D printers?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)<br>
  <a href="http://www.reprap.org/wiki/Main\_Page" title="reprap.org">http://www.reprap.org/wiki/Main\_Page</a> [reprap.org] <br>
  <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3d\_printing" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3d\_printing</a> [wikipedia.org] </p><p>And then print their own solar cells, 3D printers, and matter extractors and recyclers?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p><p>Mainstream economics, if it ever made any sense, is on its way out...</p><p>That said, totally free global markets might not be that bad if there was a global basic income as a human right for every person to regularly claim some part of the fruits of the industrial commons:<br>
  <a href="http://www.basicincome.org/bien/aboutbasicincome.html" title="basicincome.org">http://www.basicincome.org/bien/aboutbasicincome.html</a> [basicincome.org] <br>
  <a href="http://www.basicincome.org/bien/papers.html" title="basicincome.org">http://www.basicincome.org/bien/papers.html</a> [basicincome.org] </p><p>And of course some way to account for externalities:<br>
  <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality</a> [wikipedia.org] </p><p>And a way to limit the concentration of wealth and power that can destroy the free market by regulatory capture (as happens all too often in the USA...)</p><p>Note that Friedrich Hayek said he was not against government intervention if it was based on "a clear set of principles", and a basic income as a human right (which also might smooth out business cycles), as well as concerns about externalities and concentration of wealth and power, might fit that definition:<br>
  "The road to serfdom: text and documents"<br>
  <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=qg61T\_I1mwsC&amp;pg=PA20" title="google.com">http://books.google.com/books?id=qg61T\_I1mwsC&amp;pg=PA20</a> [google.com] <br>"... he repeatedly emphasized in his talks before business groups that he was not against government intervention per se: "I think what is needed is a clear set of principles which enables us to distinguish between the legitimate fields of government activities and the illegitimate fields of government activity.""</p><p>Otherwise,  without a human right to make a claim on the fruits of the industrial commons, what are you going to do if robots, AI, better design, and saturated demand take your job? Marshall Brain painted that picture, and it is not pretty:<br>
  <a href="http://www.marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm" title="marshallbrain.com">http://www.marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm</a> [marshallbrain.com] </p><p>And Frances Moore Lapp&#233; has already pointed out how starvation is quite possible around plenty:<br>
  <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances\_Moore\_Lapp\%C3\%A9" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances\_Moore\_Lapp\%C3\%A9</a> [wikipedia.org] <br>"Throughout her works Lapp&#233; has argued that world hunger is caused not by the lack of food but rather by the inability of hungry people to gain access to the abundant amount of food that exists in the world and/or food-producing resources because they are simply too poor. She has posited that our current "thin democracy" creates a maldistribution of power and resources that inevitably creates waste and an artificial scarcity of the essentials for sustainable living."</p><p>Some other ideas about freedom, if you are interested:<br>
  "Ivan Illich: deschooling, conviviality and the possibilities for informal education and lifelong learning"<br>
  <a href="http://www.infed.org/thinkers/et-illic.htm" title="infed.org">http://www.infed.org/thinkers/et-illic.htm</a> [infed.org] </p><p>And from Ivan Illich's deschooling society, that echoes some of Hayek's points:<br>
  <a href="http://reactor-core.org/deschooling.html" title="reactor-core.org">http://reactor-core.org/deschooling.html</a> [reactor-core.org] <br>"""<br>The choice is between two radically opposed institutional types, both of which are exemplified in certain existing institutions, although one type so characterizes the contemporary period. as to almost define it. This dominant type I would propose to call the manipulative institution. The other type also exists, but only precariously. The institutions which</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What about when consumers can buy nanotech 3D printers ?
: - ) http : //www.reprap.org/wiki/Main \ _Page [ reprap.org ] http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3d \ _printing [ wikipedia.org ] And then print their own solar cells , 3D printers , and matter extractors and recyclers ?
: - ) Mainstream economics , if it ever made any sense , is on its way out...That said , totally free global markets might not be that bad if there was a global basic income as a human right for every person to regularly claim some part of the fruits of the industrial commons : http : //www.basicincome.org/bien/aboutbasicincome.html [ basicincome.org ] http : //www.basicincome.org/bien/papers.html [ basicincome.org ] And of course some way to account for externalities : http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality [ wikipedia.org ] And a way to limit the concentration of wealth and power that can destroy the free market by regulatory capture ( as happens all too often in the USA... ) Note that Friedrich Hayek said he was not against government intervention if it was based on " a clear set of principles " , and a basic income as a human right ( which also might smooth out business cycles ) , as well as concerns about externalities and concentration of wealth and power , might fit that definition : " The road to serfdom : text and documents " http : //books.google.com/books ? id = qg61T \ _I1mwsC&amp;pg = PA20 [ google.com ] " ... he repeatedly emphasized in his talks before business groups that he was not against government intervention per se : " I think what is needed is a clear set of principles which enables us to distinguish between the legitimate fields of government activities and the illegitimate fields of government activity .
" " Otherwise , without a human right to make a claim on the fruits of the industrial commons , what are you going to do if robots , AI , better design , and saturated demand take your job ?
Marshall Brain painted that picture , and it is not pretty : http : //www.marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm [ marshallbrain.com ] And Frances Moore Lapp   has already pointed out how starvation is quite possible around plenty : http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances \ _Moore \ _Lapp \ % C3 \ % A9 [ wikipedia.org ] " Throughout her works Lapp   has argued that world hunger is caused not by the lack of food but rather by the inability of hungry people to gain access to the abundant amount of food that exists in the world and/or food-producing resources because they are simply too poor .
She has posited that our current " thin democracy " creates a maldistribution of power and resources that inevitably creates waste and an artificial scarcity of the essentials for sustainable living .
" Some other ideas about freedom , if you are interested : " Ivan Illich : deschooling , conviviality and the possibilities for informal education and lifelong learning " http : //www.infed.org/thinkers/et-illic.htm [ infed.org ] And from Ivan Illich 's deschooling society , that echoes some of Hayek 's points : http : //reactor-core.org/deschooling.html [ reactor-core.org ] " " " The choice is between two radically opposed institutional types , both of which are exemplified in certain existing institutions , although one type so characterizes the contemporary period .
as to almost define it .
This dominant type I would propose to call the manipulative institution .
The other type also exists , but only precariously .
The institutions which</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What about when consumers can buy nanotech 3D printers?
:-)
  http://www.reprap.org/wiki/Main\_Page [reprap.org] 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3d\_printing [wikipedia.org] And then print their own solar cells, 3D printers, and matter extractors and recyclers?
:-)Mainstream economics, if it ever made any sense, is on its way out...That said, totally free global markets might not be that bad if there was a global basic income as a human right for every person to regularly claim some part of the fruits of the industrial commons:
  http://www.basicincome.org/bien/aboutbasicincome.html [basicincome.org] 
  http://www.basicincome.org/bien/papers.html [basicincome.org] And of course some way to account for externalities:
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality [wikipedia.org] And a way to limit the concentration of wealth and power that can destroy the free market by regulatory capture (as happens all too often in the USA...)Note that Friedrich Hayek said he was not against government intervention if it was based on "a clear set of principles", and a basic income as a human right (which also might smooth out business cycles), as well as concerns about externalities and concentration of wealth and power, might fit that definition:
  "The road to serfdom: text and documents"
  http://books.google.com/books?id=qg61T\_I1mwsC&amp;pg=PA20 [google.com] "... he repeatedly emphasized in his talks before business groups that he was not against government intervention per se: "I think what is needed is a clear set of principles which enables us to distinguish between the legitimate fields of government activities and the illegitimate fields of government activity.
""Otherwise,  without a human right to make a claim on the fruits of the industrial commons, what are you going to do if robots, AI, better design, and saturated demand take your job?
Marshall Brain painted that picture, and it is not pretty:
  http://www.marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm [marshallbrain.com] And Frances Moore Lappé has already pointed out how starvation is quite possible around plenty:
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances\_Moore\_Lapp\%C3\%A9 [wikipedia.org] "Throughout her works Lappé has argued that world hunger is caused not by the lack of food but rather by the inability of hungry people to gain access to the abundant amount of food that exists in the world and/or food-producing resources because they are simply too poor.
She has posited that our current "thin democracy" creates a maldistribution of power and resources that inevitably creates waste and an artificial scarcity of the essentials for sustainable living.
"Some other ideas about freedom, if you are interested:
  "Ivan Illich: deschooling, conviviality and the possibilities for informal education and lifelong learning"
  http://www.infed.org/thinkers/et-illic.htm [infed.org] And from Ivan Illich's deschooling society, that echoes some of Hayek's points:
  http://reactor-core.org/deschooling.html [reactor-core.org] """The choice is between two radically opposed institutional types, both of which are exemplified in certain existing institutions, although one type so characterizes the contemporary period.
as to almost define it.
This dominant type I would propose to call the manipulative institution.
The other type also exists, but only precariously.
The institutions which</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530226</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31533304</id>
	<title>Re:I wonder what will happen in the long run?</title>
	<author>mochan\_s</author>
	<datestamp>1268938200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I don't know what will happen in the next few decades, but trends like this scare me. It makes me think about how, in an effort to make more profit, corporations have essentially dismantled US tech and manufacturing, which, for most of America's history, have been the backbone of this country. Heck, you can't even call farmers and ranchers that anymore; we import even our beef from other countries.</p></div></blockquote><p>What will happen is that other countries will become good at things that will kill certain parts of our industry. For example, no televisions or computer monitors are made in the USA. Maybe solar panels will be made in China. However, what has happened is that TVs and computer monitors are become frigging amazing that it has spawned completed new industries.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't know what will happen in the next few decades , but trends like this scare me .
It makes me think about how , in an effort to make more profit , corporations have essentially dismantled US tech and manufacturing , which , for most of America 's history , have been the backbone of this country .
Heck , you ca n't even call farmers and ranchers that anymore ; we import even our beef from other countries.What will happen is that other countries will become good at things that will kill certain parts of our industry .
For example , no televisions or computer monitors are made in the USA .
Maybe solar panels will be made in China .
However , what has happened is that TVs and computer monitors are become frigging amazing that it has spawned completed new industries .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't know what will happen in the next few decades, but trends like this scare me.
It makes me think about how, in an effort to make more profit, corporations have essentially dismantled US tech and manufacturing, which, for most of America's history, have been the backbone of this country.
Heck, you can't even call farmers and ranchers that anymore; we import even our beef from other countries.What will happen is that other countries will become good at things that will kill certain parts of our industry.
For example, no televisions or computer monitors are made in the USA.
Maybe solar panels will be made in China.
However, what has happened is that TVs and computer monitors are become frigging amazing that it has spawned completed new industries.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529824</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531634</id>
	<title>You sound like the free market guy</title>
	<author>roman\_mir</author>
	<datestamp>1268921820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The thing is, you are the free market guy, not the troll that you are replying to.</p><p>Also the thing is, free market has hardly ever been tried in this world, people don't want free market, people just want profit for themselves.</p><p>In reality we cannot have free market because there will always be at least 2 people, who do not care about such things and only want to get ahead in front of everybody else.  In fact, it's not just 2 people, it's almost everybody, under those conditions the idea of the 'ideal free market' is moot and a non starter.</p><p>--</p><p>Here is how I would go about getting ahead:</p><p>1. Go Shindler style.  Befriend some people in power by being nice and slick and paying for drinks and making people laugh and give people free stuff, they like that, and then make sure to participate in various extracurricular activities with these people, play golf, buy them drugs, get them access to hookers or something, you know, the works.</p><p>2. Become an invaluable asset to the people in power, also learn their secrets in the process, gain leverage.</p><p>3. Propose something that will help them do what they do.  For example pay politicians by providing corporate donations and gifts.  In exchange ask for some help with becoming a preferred corporation, some special tax breaks and such.  Get some government contracts and make sure that money flows back nicely from the contracts too.</p><p>4. Get a guy or two, who are close to retirement in the local government to do something for you, not extremely significant BUT visible.  Once they 'retire', pay them, make them your lobbyists, get their wives and such on some 'consulting' position that pays but does not require anything to do actually.  This is good publicity for the rest of the politicians, they'll know you are a player, they'll take the bait of the implied bribe: work for me now, you'll get paid when you are out.</p><p>5. Now real work starts, make your case to other politicians, work on becoming big, really big.  Good tax break, new regulations making it difficult for anyone new to get into the field, remove competition, create difficulties for others in the field by special regulations, the works.</p><p>6. Get bigger and bigger, become one of the really preferred corporations, those who get free money at no interest from the Fed.  Get on that tit, it's wonderful.</p><p>7. Start the real magic here: get into derivative markets, create a separate set of corporations that will take on really really really bad bets on purpose.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The thing is , you are the free market guy , not the troll that you are replying to.Also the thing is , free market has hardly ever been tried in this world , people do n't want free market , people just want profit for themselves.In reality we can not have free market because there will always be at least 2 people , who do not care about such things and only want to get ahead in front of everybody else .
In fact , it 's not just 2 people , it 's almost everybody , under those conditions the idea of the 'ideal free market ' is moot and a non starter.--Here is how I would go about getting ahead : 1 .
Go Shindler style .
Befriend some people in power by being nice and slick and paying for drinks and making people laugh and give people free stuff , they like that , and then make sure to participate in various extracurricular activities with these people , play golf , buy them drugs , get them access to hookers or something , you know , the works.2 .
Become an invaluable asset to the people in power , also learn their secrets in the process , gain leverage.3 .
Propose something that will help them do what they do .
For example pay politicians by providing corporate donations and gifts .
In exchange ask for some help with becoming a preferred corporation , some special tax breaks and such .
Get some government contracts and make sure that money flows back nicely from the contracts too.4 .
Get a guy or two , who are close to retirement in the local government to do something for you , not extremely significant BUT visible .
Once they 'retire ' , pay them , make them your lobbyists , get their wives and such on some 'consulting ' position that pays but does not require anything to do actually .
This is good publicity for the rest of the politicians , they 'll know you are a player , they 'll take the bait of the implied bribe : work for me now , you 'll get paid when you are out.5 .
Now real work starts , make your case to other politicians , work on becoming big , really big .
Good tax break , new regulations making it difficult for anyone new to get into the field , remove competition , create difficulties for others in the field by special regulations , the works.6 .
Get bigger and bigger , become one of the really preferred corporations , those who get free money at no interest from the Fed .
Get on that tit , it 's wonderful.7 .
Start the real magic here : get into derivative markets , create a separate set of corporations that will take on really really really bad bets on purpose .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The thing is, you are the free market guy, not the troll that you are replying to.Also the thing is, free market has hardly ever been tried in this world, people don't want free market, people just want profit for themselves.In reality we cannot have free market because there will always be at least 2 people, who do not care about such things and only want to get ahead in front of everybody else.
In fact, it's not just 2 people, it's almost everybody, under those conditions the idea of the 'ideal free market' is moot and a non starter.--Here is how I would go about getting ahead:1.
Go Shindler style.
Befriend some people in power by being nice and slick and paying for drinks and making people laugh and give people free stuff, they like that, and then make sure to participate in various extracurricular activities with these people, play golf, buy them drugs, get them access to hookers or something, you know, the works.2.
Become an invaluable asset to the people in power, also learn their secrets in the process, gain leverage.3.
Propose something that will help them do what they do.
For example pay politicians by providing corporate donations and gifts.
In exchange ask for some help with becoming a preferred corporation, some special tax breaks and such.
Get some government contracts and make sure that money flows back nicely from the contracts too.4.
Get a guy or two, who are close to retirement in the local government to do something for you, not extremely significant BUT visible.
Once they 'retire', pay them, make them your lobbyists, get their wives and such on some 'consulting' position that pays but does not require anything to do actually.
This is good publicity for the rest of the politicians, they'll know you are a player, they'll take the bait of the implied bribe: work for me now, you'll get paid when you are out.5.
Now real work starts, make your case to other politicians, work on becoming big, really big.
Good tax break, new regulations making it difficult for anyone new to get into the field, remove competition, create difficulties for others in the field by special regulations, the works.6.
Get bigger and bigger, become one of the really preferred corporations, those who get free money at no interest from the Fed.
Get on that tit, it's wonderful.7.
Start the real magic here: get into derivative markets, create a separate set of corporations that will take on really really really bad bets on purpose.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530184</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530244</id>
	<title>Western and Eastern educations are not equivalent.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268912760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I hear this a lot, about how the Chinese and Indians are supposedly so much smarter than Americans, Europeans, Australians and the Japanese. Having worked in industry and academia with them, I can tell you that it's a load of bunk.</p><p>The education there is very different from that of Western nations. Since they have so many people competing for comparatively few spots, they resort to various aptitude tests to try and weed out people. The people who succeed here are the ones who can memorize huge amounts of otherwise useless information, and regurgitate it at will.</p><p>Anyone who has worked in advanced R&amp;D is aware that just knowing a huge amount of facts isn't of much use. With the Internet and computers making information retrieval trivial, memorizing huge amounts of information really isn't as beneficial as it may have been.</p><p>In R&amp;D, the main factor to consider is how inventive and innovative a researcher is. That doesn't come from being "book smart". It comes from being able to think flexibly and creatively. This is a trait that is encouraged in the academia of the West, but denounced and suppressed in the East.</p><p>Take software development. Sure, Indians can rattle off all sorts of near-useless data about class hierarchies and method signatures and algorithm runtime complexities (you know, the sort of stuff the rest of us would just search for online or in a book). However, ask them to perform a task that requires some innovation, trial-and-error or critical thinking, and they're totally lost. That's why so many software projects developed in India by Indian-trained developers fail so horribly.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I hear this a lot , about how the Chinese and Indians are supposedly so much smarter than Americans , Europeans , Australians and the Japanese .
Having worked in industry and academia with them , I can tell you that it 's a load of bunk.The education there is very different from that of Western nations .
Since they have so many people competing for comparatively few spots , they resort to various aptitude tests to try and weed out people .
The people who succeed here are the ones who can memorize huge amounts of otherwise useless information , and regurgitate it at will.Anyone who has worked in advanced R&amp;D is aware that just knowing a huge amount of facts is n't of much use .
With the Internet and computers making information retrieval trivial , memorizing huge amounts of information really is n't as beneficial as it may have been.In R&amp;D , the main factor to consider is how inventive and innovative a researcher is .
That does n't come from being " book smart " .
It comes from being able to think flexibly and creatively .
This is a trait that is encouraged in the academia of the West , but denounced and suppressed in the East.Take software development .
Sure , Indians can rattle off all sorts of near-useless data about class hierarchies and method signatures and algorithm runtime complexities ( you know , the sort of stuff the rest of us would just search for online or in a book ) .
However , ask them to perform a task that requires some innovation , trial-and-error or critical thinking , and they 're totally lost .
That 's why so many software projects developed in India by Indian-trained developers fail so horribly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I hear this a lot, about how the Chinese and Indians are supposedly so much smarter than Americans, Europeans, Australians and the Japanese.
Having worked in industry and academia with them, I can tell you that it's a load of bunk.The education there is very different from that of Western nations.
Since they have so many people competing for comparatively few spots, they resort to various aptitude tests to try and weed out people.
The people who succeed here are the ones who can memorize huge amounts of otherwise useless information, and regurgitate it at will.Anyone who has worked in advanced R&amp;D is aware that just knowing a huge amount of facts isn't of much use.
With the Internet and computers making information retrieval trivial, memorizing huge amounts of information really isn't as beneficial as it may have been.In R&amp;D, the main factor to consider is how inventive and innovative a researcher is.
That doesn't come from being "book smart".
It comes from being able to think flexibly and creatively.
This is a trait that is encouraged in the academia of the West, but denounced and suppressed in the East.Take software development.
Sure, Indians can rattle off all sorts of near-useless data about class hierarchies and method signatures and algorithm runtime complexities (you know, the sort of stuff the rest of us would just search for online or in a book).
However, ask them to perform a task that requires some innovation, trial-and-error or critical thinking, and they're totally lost.
That's why so many software projects developed in India by Indian-trained developers fail so horribly.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529892</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31533148</id>
	<title>Re:Good job</title>
	<author>shentino</author>
	<datestamp>1268935920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I somewhat agree.</p><p>After all, if we're already taxing individual incomes, and especially the infamous "double taxation" that applies to dividends, why do we need to tax corporations in the first place?</p><p>Either end corporate income tax, allow corporations to deduct dividends from their gross income, or make exempt dividend income from a taxed corporation.  It's not fair at all for Uncle Sam to double dip the same income twice before it's even been spent.</p><p>One important caveat to this however:  Wealth brings power, and I think some of our corporations are already way too big for our own good.  So it's entirely possible that the corporate income tax is a safety valve versus monopoly to a degree.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I somewhat agree.After all , if we 're already taxing individual incomes , and especially the infamous " double taxation " that applies to dividends , why do we need to tax corporations in the first place ? Either end corporate income tax , allow corporations to deduct dividends from their gross income , or make exempt dividend income from a taxed corporation .
It 's not fair at all for Uncle Sam to double dip the same income twice before it 's even been spent.One important caveat to this however : Wealth brings power , and I think some of our corporations are already way too big for our own good .
So it 's entirely possible that the corporate income tax is a safety valve versus monopoly to a degree .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I somewhat agree.After all, if we're already taxing individual incomes, and especially the infamous "double taxation" that applies to dividends, why do we need to tax corporations in the first place?Either end corporate income tax, allow corporations to deduct dividends from their gross income, or make exempt dividend income from a taxed corporation.
It's not fair at all for Uncle Sam to double dip the same income twice before it's even been spent.One important caveat to this however:  Wealth brings power, and I think some of our corporations are already way too big for our own good.
So it's entirely possible that the corporate income tax is a safety valve versus monopoly to a degree.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530606</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531196</id>
	<title>Re:Good news if it results in less regulation</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268918640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The elite in this country have a self of entitlement over everyone else. Look at Meg Whitman. She wants 500,000 new cheap H-1Bs each year. She thinks that the California governor race has a "buy it now" price.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The elite in this country have a self of entitlement over everyone else .
Look at Meg Whitman .
She wants 500,000 new cheap H-1Bs each year .
She thinks that the California governor race has a " buy it now " price .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The elite in this country have a self of entitlement over everyone else.
Look at Meg Whitman.
She wants 500,000 new cheap H-1Bs each year.
She thinks that the California governor race has a "buy it now" price.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530184</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31533032</id>
	<title>Re:Let a 50 year old Engineer tell you something</title>
	<author>jet\_silver</author>
	<datestamp>1268934780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Another 50ish ME here.</p><p>I worked for Applied Materials when it was busy outsourcing production of 5000 and Centura systems to Japan, in the early 1990s.  At that time Silicon Valley was getting full of Japanese companies doing exactly what we're talking about here:  buying, cross-licensing, or otherwise co-opting technology.  There was - and still is - an AMAT R&amp;D center in Narita where the biggest, nastiest kludge prototypes were being built by local staff.  And they learned, and they got better at it....</p><p>and the market moved.  AMAT is now seeking growth in solar films, not in what was their core business:  wafer fab.</p><p>AMAT is probably smart enough to keep the cutting-edge tech nuggets the hell out of China.  The parent is right about production raising the ante.  The parent is wrong in implying that this ipso facto ruins the home business - it only ruins businesses that have gotten complacent.  UK car industry?  Failed to be paranoid.  Ditto UK bicycle industry, American audio industry, American car industry.  The American aircraft industry is next and I assure you Boeing are not missing the implications.  757 production -will- be moved to China in ten years or fewer.  How will the market move in aircraft?</p><p>After all, the UK, France and Germany are still in business.  So is the US.</p><p>In my current business, labor is a pretty small fraction of the cost of goods sold.  As it matures, it will get more cost sensitive and the gains to be had in reducing labor cost will mean this business will move to China.</p><p>The question is whether the fuse is built faster than it burns.</p><p>Don't discount, above all, the idea that the Chinese are managing their own fuse.  If 1.3 billion people demand more than what can be supplied, there you have the necessary conditions for a revolution:  they're not started by starving people, they're started by people who see progress but aren't sufficiently sharing in it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Another 50ish ME here.I worked for Applied Materials when it was busy outsourcing production of 5000 and Centura systems to Japan , in the early 1990s .
At that time Silicon Valley was getting full of Japanese companies doing exactly what we 're talking about here : buying , cross-licensing , or otherwise co-opting technology .
There was - and still is - an AMAT R&amp;D center in Narita where the biggest , nastiest kludge prototypes were being built by local staff .
And they learned , and they got better at it....and the market moved .
AMAT is now seeking growth in solar films , not in what was their core business : wafer fab.AMAT is probably smart enough to keep the cutting-edge tech nuggets the hell out of China .
The parent is right about production raising the ante .
The parent is wrong in implying that this ipso facto ruins the home business - it only ruins businesses that have gotten complacent .
UK car industry ?
Failed to be paranoid .
Ditto UK bicycle industry , American audio industry , American car industry .
The American aircraft industry is next and I assure you Boeing are not missing the implications .
757 production -will- be moved to China in ten years or fewer .
How will the market move in aircraft ? After all , the UK , France and Germany are still in business .
So is the US.In my current business , labor is a pretty small fraction of the cost of goods sold .
As it matures , it will get more cost sensitive and the gains to be had in reducing labor cost will mean this business will move to China.The question is whether the fuse is built faster than it burns.Do n't discount , above all , the idea that the Chinese are managing their own fuse .
If 1.3 billion people demand more than what can be supplied , there you have the necessary conditions for a revolution : they 're not started by starving people , they 're started by people who see progress but are n't sufficiently sharing in it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Another 50ish ME here.I worked for Applied Materials when it was busy outsourcing production of 5000 and Centura systems to Japan, in the early 1990s.
At that time Silicon Valley was getting full of Japanese companies doing exactly what we're talking about here:  buying, cross-licensing, or otherwise co-opting technology.
There was - and still is - an AMAT R&amp;D center in Narita where the biggest, nastiest kludge prototypes were being built by local staff.
And they learned, and they got better at it....and the market moved.
AMAT is now seeking growth in solar films, not in what was their core business:  wafer fab.AMAT is probably smart enough to keep the cutting-edge tech nuggets the hell out of China.
The parent is right about production raising the ante.
The parent is wrong in implying that this ipso facto ruins the home business - it only ruins businesses that have gotten complacent.
UK car industry?
Failed to be paranoid.
Ditto UK bicycle industry, American audio industry, American car industry.
The American aircraft industry is next and I assure you Boeing are not missing the implications.
757 production -will- be moved to China in ten years or fewer.
How will the market move in aircraft?After all, the UK, France and Germany are still in business.
So is the US.In my current business, labor is a pretty small fraction of the cost of goods sold.
As it matures, it will get more cost sensitive and the gains to be had in reducing labor cost will mean this business will move to China.The question is whether the fuse is built faster than it burns.Don't discount, above all, the idea that the Chinese are managing their own fuse.
If 1.3 billion people demand more than what can be supplied, there you have the necessary conditions for a revolution:  they're not started by starving people, they're started by people who see progress but aren't sufficiently sharing in it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530788</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531644</id>
	<title>Re:Western and Eastern educations are not equivale</title>
	<author>NewbieProgrammerMan</author>
	<datestamp>1268922000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Anyone who has worked in advanced R&amp;D is aware that just knowing a huge amount of facts isn't of much use.</p> </div><p>I've heard many researchers say they get plenty of students (from here and overseas) that are good at knowing lots of facts/techniques/methods/etc., but fall on their face when you try to move them into original research.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>The education there is very different from that of Western nations.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...they resort to various aptitude tests to try and weed out people.</p></div><p>Isn't that what we do here as well, though?  You have a hard time getting into grad school if you can't get a good score on the (mostly) multiple-choice GRE, you have to pass a lot of classes early in grad school that can be passed solely by memorization....and we somehow expect that filtering process to produce people that are good at thinking imaginatively to solve hard problems.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Anyone who has worked in advanced R&amp;D is aware that just knowing a huge amount of facts is n't of much use .
I 've heard many researchers say they get plenty of students ( from here and overseas ) that are good at knowing lots of facts/techniques/methods/etc. , but fall on their face when you try to move them into original research.The education there is very different from that of Western nations .
...they resort to various aptitude tests to try and weed out people.Is n't that what we do here as well , though ?
You have a hard time getting into grad school if you ca n't get a good score on the ( mostly ) multiple-choice GRE , you have to pass a lot of classes early in grad school that can be passed solely by memorization....and we somehow expect that filtering process to produce people that are good at thinking imaginatively to solve hard problems .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Anyone who has worked in advanced R&amp;D is aware that just knowing a huge amount of facts isn't of much use.
I've heard many researchers say they get plenty of students (from here and overseas) that are good at knowing lots of facts/techniques/methods/etc., but fall on their face when you try to move them into original research.The education there is very different from that of Western nations.
...they resort to various aptitude tests to try and weed out people.Isn't that what we do here as well, though?
You have a hard time getting into grad school if you can't get a good score on the (mostly) multiple-choice GRE, you have to pass a lot of classes early in grad school that can be passed solely by memorization....and we somehow expect that filtering process to produce people that are good at thinking imaginatively to solve hard problems.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530504</id>
	<title>Blame the Lawyers</title>
	<author>Plekto</author>
	<datestamp>1268914320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's not just cheaper labor.  It's that they are doing what we did over a hundred years ago when we decided to just ignore the rest of the world's rights and patents and do our own thing.  So we built and invented and took all of the credit where we could for ourselves.  And it worked fine in the early days.  Then lawyers and the courts got involved.  And now, it's so cumbersome to even invent or create anything here in the U.S. that the only real option if you want rapid change and to stay ahead is to once again go to where there is no such idiocy.</p><p>And just like there was a giant brain-drain from Europe to the U.S. in the last century or so, there also will be once from elsewhere to China.</p><p>I know that if I wanted to start a new company, for instance, California would be the last place I'd want to start it.  Or well, pretty much anyplace in the U.S., as just fighting and dealing with legal issues alone would take years and enormous amounts of money before even one item hit the shelves.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's not just cheaper labor .
It 's that they are doing what we did over a hundred years ago when we decided to just ignore the rest of the world 's rights and patents and do our own thing .
So we built and invented and took all of the credit where we could for ourselves .
And it worked fine in the early days .
Then lawyers and the courts got involved .
And now , it 's so cumbersome to even invent or create anything here in the U.S. that the only real option if you want rapid change and to stay ahead is to once again go to where there is no such idiocy.And just like there was a giant brain-drain from Europe to the U.S. in the last century or so , there also will be once from elsewhere to China.I know that if I wanted to start a new company , for instance , California would be the last place I 'd want to start it .
Or well , pretty much anyplace in the U.S. , as just fighting and dealing with legal issues alone would take years and enormous amounts of money before even one item hit the shelves .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's not just cheaper labor.
It's that they are doing what we did over a hundred years ago when we decided to just ignore the rest of the world's rights and patents and do our own thing.
So we built and invented and took all of the credit where we could for ourselves.
And it worked fine in the early days.
Then lawyers and the courts got involved.
And now, it's so cumbersome to even invent or create anything here in the U.S. that the only real option if you want rapid change and to stay ahead is to once again go to where there is no such idiocy.And just like there was a giant brain-drain from Europe to the U.S. in the last century or so, there also will be once from elsewhere to China.I know that if I wanted to start a new company, for instance, California would be the last place I'd want to start it.
Or well, pretty much anyplace in the U.S., as just fighting and dealing with legal issues alone would take years and enormous amounts of money before even one item hit the shelves.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31533056</id>
	<title>Re:"free traders"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268935080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What nonsense.  reason.org just spews utter nonsense. The back bone was not corporations.  Corporations are legal fictions licensed to do business. The dismantling of the tariff system starting with Reagan is the reason manufacturing is disappearing in the USA.  The USA had tariffs for 200 hundred years until Reagan and had a high standard of living and manufacturing.  Since the reduction in tariffs the economy in the USA has declined.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What nonsense .
reason.org just spews utter nonsense .
The back bone was not corporations .
Corporations are legal fictions licensed to do business .
The dismantling of the tariff system starting with Reagan is the reason manufacturing is disappearing in the USA .
The USA had tariffs for 200 hundred years until Reagan and had a high standard of living and manufacturing .
Since the reduction in tariffs the economy in the USA has declined .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What nonsense.
reason.org just spews utter nonsense.
The back bone was not corporations.
Corporations are legal fictions licensed to do business.
The dismantling of the tariff system starting with Reagan is the reason manufacturing is disappearing in the USA.
The USA had tariffs for 200 hundred years until Reagan and had a high standard of living and manufacturing.
Since the reduction in tariffs the economy in the USA has declined.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530446</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31535366</id>
	<title>Re:Western and Eastern educations are not equivale</title>
	<author>Hal\_Porter</author>
	<datestamp>1269007980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Slashdot moderation</p><p>1) My co workers don't have better social skills than me they just spend their time talking about nonsense like American Idol while I sit in the basement fiddling with a computer. The problem with the US is that hard work and education aren't respected, just bullshitting skills.</p><p>+5 Insightful</p><p>2) The Indians and Chinese aren't smart they're just book smart. They've got no idea how to apply their intelligence in a company.</p><p>+5 Insightful</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Slashdot moderation1 ) My co workers do n't have better social skills than me they just spend their time talking about nonsense like American Idol while I sit in the basement fiddling with a computer .
The problem with the US is that hard work and education are n't respected , just bullshitting skills. + 5 Insightful2 ) The Indians and Chinese are n't smart they 're just book smart .
They 've got no idea how to apply their intelligence in a company. + 5 Insightful</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Slashdot moderation1) My co workers don't have better social skills than me they just spend their time talking about nonsense like American Idol while I sit in the basement fiddling with a computer.
The problem with the US is that hard work and education aren't respected, just bullshitting skills.+5 Insightful2) The Indians and Chinese aren't smart they're just book smart.
They've got no idea how to apply their intelligence in a company.+5 Insightful</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531814</id>
	<title>Re:Not giving up... my fat @</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268923380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Agreed.</p><p>What was left out from "We're obviously not giving up on the US" was "... as a <i>market,</i> but we will be having the Chinese do the work for us from now on."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Agreed.What was left out from " We 're obviously not giving up on the US " was " ... as a market , but we will be having the Chinese do the work for us from now on .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Agreed.What was left out from "We're obviously not giving up on the US" was "... as a market, but we will be having the Chinese do the work for us from now on.
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530116</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31532582</id>
	<title>Re:Good job</title>
	<author>Totenglocke</author>
	<datestamp>1268930160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Oh, from your own link, someone who bothered to READ the cited study said "For the time period examined, only 2.7\% of large U.S. companies didn&rsquo;t pay any taxes. It&rsquo;s pretty misleading to state the number is 66\%."</p><p>Yup, 97.7\% paying taxes really sounds like "close to 0" pay taxes.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Oh , from your own link , someone who bothered to READ the cited study said " For the time period examined , only 2.7 \ % of large U.S. companies didn    t pay any taxes .
It    s pretty misleading to state the number is 66 \ % .
" Yup , 97.7 \ % paying taxes really sounds like " close to 0 " pay taxes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Oh, from your own link, someone who bothered to READ the cited study said "For the time period examined, only 2.7\% of large U.S. companies didn’t pay any taxes.
It’s pretty misleading to state the number is 66\%.
"Yup, 97.7\% paying taxes really sounds like "close to 0" pay taxes.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31532264</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530752</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268915760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>But much of "wealth" is not finite, it is a matter of how much of it is being produced for larger parts. The 3rd world was extremely unproductive with all this exploitation.  If the exploitation ends or becomes less efficient, it can very well be that more nations like china will be well capable of increasing their productivity by magnitudes.</p><p>Yes, raw materials and other things may become more expensive if that happens, but I believe this can be quite well offset by not wasting quite as much anymore. For other things, you'll have more productive partners to trade with in the former third world. This will also help OUR productivity. And in the not even so long run, we're looking at the possibility of having all our basic needs covered with near zero work effort, anyways (computers FTW), so all we'll be working for is going to be pure luxury anyways.</p><p>The only thing I myself am really worried about is that some nation(s) might invest most of their gained productivity in weapons of war, just because it appears there's a shortcut to more wealth.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>But much of " wealth " is not finite , it is a matter of how much of it is being produced for larger parts .
The 3rd world was extremely unproductive with all this exploitation .
If the exploitation ends or becomes less efficient , it can very well be that more nations like china will be well capable of increasing their productivity by magnitudes.Yes , raw materials and other things may become more expensive if that happens , but I believe this can be quite well offset by not wasting quite as much anymore .
For other things , you 'll have more productive partners to trade with in the former third world .
This will also help OUR productivity .
And in the not even so long run , we 're looking at the possibility of having all our basic needs covered with near zero work effort , anyways ( computers FTW ) , so all we 'll be working for is going to be pure luxury anyways.The only thing I myself am really worried about is that some nation ( s ) might invest most of their gained productivity in weapons of war , just because it appears there 's a shortcut to more wealth .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But much of "wealth" is not finite, it is a matter of how much of it is being produced for larger parts.
The 3rd world was extremely unproductive with all this exploitation.
If the exploitation ends or becomes less efficient, it can very well be that more nations like china will be well capable of increasing their productivity by magnitudes.Yes, raw materials and other things may become more expensive if that happens, but I believe this can be quite well offset by not wasting quite as much anymore.
For other things, you'll have more productive partners to trade with in the former third world.
This will also help OUR productivity.
And in the not even so long run, we're looking at the possibility of having all our basic needs covered with near zero work effort, anyways (computers FTW), so all we'll be working for is going to be pure luxury anyways.The only thing I myself am really worried about is that some nation(s) might invest most of their gained productivity in weapons of war, just because it appears there's a shortcut to more wealth.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530050</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531334</id>
	<title>Bullshit. Applied Materials can go fuck a baby</title>
	<author>Jackie\_Chan\_Fan</author>
	<datestamp>1268919600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"We're obviously not giving up on the US,' says Pinto."</p><p>Yeah right. You fucking traitors. Go fuck a baby, you have about as much ethics as a child rapist.</p><p>WE CANT COMPETE WITH SLAVE LABOR WAGES... So Applied Materials has decided to sell out America and sell their products back to Americans at American prices using chinese labor...</p><p>This scam has gone on long enough. Anyone doing this should be kicked out of the country and have their citizenship pissed on.</p><p>Basically Applied Materials is saying "Have fun with your mcdonalds and stupid reality shows, you're all fucking dumb... but your not dumb enough to work for slave wages just yet... so we're packing it up and moving to china where we can exploit people... and probably fuck their underage children too because we're awesome at not giving a damn about anything except the DOLLAR...</p><p>BTW... Lets not give them dollars... or euros.. or anything. Let them die. If they think they can rape us... fuck up.</p><p>Suck it up and eat a tiny chinese dick.</p><p>This country is done.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" We 're obviously not giving up on the US, ' says Pinto .
" Yeah right .
You fucking traitors .
Go fuck a baby , you have about as much ethics as a child rapist.WE CANT COMPETE WITH SLAVE LABOR WAGES... So Applied Materials has decided to sell out America and sell their products back to Americans at American prices using chinese labor...This scam has gone on long enough .
Anyone doing this should be kicked out of the country and have their citizenship pissed on.Basically Applied Materials is saying " Have fun with your mcdonalds and stupid reality shows , you 're all fucking dumb... but your not dumb enough to work for slave wages just yet... so we 're packing it up and moving to china where we can exploit people... and probably fuck their underage children too because we 're awesome at not giving a damn about anything except the DOLLAR...BTW... Lets not give them dollars... or euros.. or anything .
Let them die .
If they think they can rape us... fuck up.Suck it up and eat a tiny chinese dick.This country is done .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"We're obviously not giving up on the US,' says Pinto.
"Yeah right.
You fucking traitors.
Go fuck a baby, you have about as much ethics as a child rapist.WE CANT COMPETE WITH SLAVE LABOR WAGES... So Applied Materials has decided to sell out America and sell their products back to Americans at American prices using chinese labor...This scam has gone on long enough.
Anyone doing this should be kicked out of the country and have their citizenship pissed on.Basically Applied Materials is saying "Have fun with your mcdonalds and stupid reality shows, you're all fucking dumb... but your not dumb enough to work for slave wages just yet... so we're packing it up and moving to china where we can exploit people... and probably fuck their underage children too because we're awesome at not giving a damn about anything except the DOLLAR...BTW... Lets not give them dollars... or euros.. or anything.
Let them die.
If they think they can rape us... fuck up.Suck it up and eat a tiny chinese dick.This country is done.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531044</id>
	<title>No, please, no!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268917620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm a foreigner and It took me too long to properly learn to read English.</p><p>Now I'll have to start over in Chinese... and will there be a Chinese<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. ?</p><p>Wait, what units system do they use there? Imperial?</p><p>What? Metric? 8-)</p><p>Ni hao!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm a foreigner and It took me too long to properly learn to read English.Now I 'll have to start over in Chinese... and will there be a Chinese / .
? Wait , what units system do they use there ?
Imperial ? What ? Metric ?
8- ) Ni hao !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm a foreigner and It took me too long to properly learn to read English.Now I'll have to start over in Chinese... and will there be a Chinese /.
?Wait, what units system do they use there?
Imperial?What? Metric?
8-)Ni hao!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529796</id>
	<title>But</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268910480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Fortunately instead of a manufacturing based industry, the US will concentrate on enforcing the concept of "intellectual property" with tough new laws to keep that nation ahead of everyone else in the technology race, while outsourcing the manufacturing to cheaper offshore locations. It's a perfect system.</p><p>Er, hang on, guys - where are you going?</p><p>History repeats itself. Why the hell should American raw materials be shipped all the way to Jolly Old England to be taxed and manufactured into finished goods that are shipped all the way back to the US, for a huge mark up (and more taxes)?  Not so fun when you're on the other end, is it?</p><p>I guess the last region to be exploited is Africa. Is it already too late to start buying land?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Fortunately instead of a manufacturing based industry , the US will concentrate on enforcing the concept of " intellectual property " with tough new laws to keep that nation ahead of everyone else in the technology race , while outsourcing the manufacturing to cheaper offshore locations .
It 's a perfect system.Er , hang on , guys - where are you going ? History repeats itself .
Why the hell should American raw materials be shipped all the way to Jolly Old England to be taxed and manufactured into finished goods that are shipped all the way back to the US , for a huge mark up ( and more taxes ) ?
Not so fun when you 're on the other end , is it ? I guess the last region to be exploited is Africa .
Is it already too late to start buying land ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Fortunately instead of a manufacturing based industry, the US will concentrate on enforcing the concept of "intellectual property" with tough new laws to keep that nation ahead of everyone else in the technology race, while outsourcing the manufacturing to cheaper offshore locations.
It's a perfect system.Er, hang on, guys - where are you going?History repeats itself.
Why the hell should American raw materials be shipped all the way to Jolly Old England to be taxed and manufactured into finished goods that are shipped all the way back to the US, for a huge mark up (and more taxes)?
Not so fun when you're on the other end, is it?I guess the last region to be exploited is Africa.
Is it already too late to start buying land?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530660</id>
	<title>Re:America has something better</title>
	<author>oldhack</author>
	<datestamp>1268915220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>AMERICA! FUCKED YEAH!</htmltext>
<tokenext>AMERICA !
FUCKED YEAH !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>AMERICA!
FUCKED YEAH!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529838</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530010</id>
	<title>War</title>
	<author>blair1q</author>
	<datestamp>1268911500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>China has taken $trillions in activity from the American economy.</p><p>It's as if there was a war, and the U.S. lost, and China won, without one person dying.</p><p>Except it wasn't a war so much as a preemptive capitulation by people with something to gain from committing treason on an epic scale.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>China has taken $ trillions in activity from the American economy.It 's as if there was a war , and the U.S. lost , and China won , without one person dying.Except it was n't a war so much as a preemptive capitulation by people with something to gain from committing treason on an epic scale .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>China has taken $trillions in activity from the American economy.It's as if there was a war, and the U.S. lost, and China won, without one person dying.Except it wasn't a war so much as a preemptive capitulation by people with something to gain from committing treason on an epic scale.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530034</id>
	<title>Re:But</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268911560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <i>I guess the last region to be exploited is Africa. Is it already too late to start buying land?</i> </p><p>Yup.  China is already buying and developing land in Africa.  (Not kidding!)</p><p>However, the development of Africa means the end of the "race to the bottom" and the end of absolute poverty.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I guess the last region to be exploited is Africa .
Is it already too late to start buying land ?
Yup. China is already buying and developing land in Africa .
( Not kidding !
) However , the development of Africa means the end of the " race to the bottom " and the end of absolute poverty .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> I guess the last region to be exploited is Africa.
Is it already too late to start buying land?
Yup.  China is already buying and developing land in Africa.
(Not kidding!
)However, the development of Africa means the end of the "race to the bottom" and the end of absolute poverty.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529796</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31545784</id>
	<title>Re:Let a 50 year old Engineer tell you something</title>
	<author>TheGratefulNet</author>
	<datestamp>1269003300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>my karma is shit and has been since it was ruined in some attack (that even slashdot admins could not figure out).  there goes my 10+ yrs of karma.  so, I have NO karma left at this point to ruin (if you can even see my -1/starting post).</p><p>I'm also in the 50yr old range and also an engineer.  I hear you loud and clear!  however, the guys running the show don't hear us or simply refuse to care.  half of them don't know any better and the worse part is, the other half DO!</p><p>our 'manufacturing' is now 'do you want fries with that?'.</p><p>people our age have seen the passing of an era.  problem is, you and I are not ready to retire yet; but the field is more than willing to sell our jobs out.</p><p>good luck to both of us.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>my karma is shit and has been since it was ruined in some attack ( that even slashdot admins could not figure out ) .
there goes my 10 + yrs of karma .
so , I have NO karma left at this point to ruin ( if you can even see my -1/starting post ) .I 'm also in the 50yr old range and also an engineer .
I hear you loud and clear !
however , the guys running the show do n't hear us or simply refuse to care .
half of them do n't know any better and the worse part is , the other half DO ! our 'manufacturing ' is now 'do you want fries with that ?
'.people our age have seen the passing of an era .
problem is , you and I are not ready to retire yet ; but the field is more than willing to sell our jobs out.good luck to both of us .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>my karma is shit and has been since it was ruined in some attack (that even slashdot admins could not figure out).
there goes my 10+ yrs of karma.
so, I have NO karma left at this point to ruin (if you can even see my -1/starting post).I'm also in the 50yr old range and also an engineer.
I hear you loud and clear!
however, the guys running the show don't hear us or simply refuse to care.
half of them don't know any better and the worse part is, the other half DO!our 'manufacturing' is now 'do you want fries with that?
'.people our age have seen the passing of an era.
problem is, you and I are not ready to retire yet; but the field is more than willing to sell our jobs out.good luck to both of us.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530788</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530190</id>
	<title>The US is not alone</title>
	<author>hrimhari</author>
	<datestamp>1268912400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If that serves as consolation, the US is not alone. French companies are also moving their R&amp;D to China.</p><p>Let's hope that they won't see their research suddenly finding facsimiles patented by Chinese competitors before theirs.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If that serves as consolation , the US is not alone .
French companies are also moving their R&amp;D to China.Let 's hope that they wo n't see their research suddenly finding facsimiles patented by Chinese competitors before theirs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If that serves as consolation, the US is not alone.
French companies are also moving their R&amp;D to China.Let's hope that they won't see their research suddenly finding facsimiles patented by Chinese competitors before theirs.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31535198</id>
	<title>ACTA no longer required...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269007320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I could swear I heard someone (president maybe?) say America's future is in IP.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I could swear I heard someone ( president maybe ?
) say America 's future is in IP .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I could swear I heard someone (president maybe?
) say America's future is in IP.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531934</id>
	<title>Re:Western and Eastern educations are not equivale</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268924520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Except that many of the people you're talking about have been educated in the West before returning to their respective countries.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Except that many of the people you 're talking about have been educated in the West before returning to their respective countries .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Except that many of the people you're talking about have been educated in the West before returning to their respective countries.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531664</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31532468</id>
	<title>Re:Western and Eastern educations are not equivale</title>
	<author>evanspw</author>
	<datestamp>1268929140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>jeez pal, welcome to 1958.</p><p>the world has changed.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>jeez pal , welcome to 1958.the world has changed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>jeez pal, welcome to 1958.the world has changed.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530908</id>
	<title>Re:Good news if it results in less regulation</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268916780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wow.  Enjoy your tasty fascism!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Wow .
Enjoy your tasty fascism !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wow.
Enjoy your tasty fascism!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530184</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31533628</id>
	<title>Re:I wonder if they still get a tax break?</title>
	<author>treeves</author>
	<datestamp>1269029820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I don't think they even care. They (AMAT) laid off hundreds of people *after* it was established that the semiconductor industry (including capital equipment) was on its way to strong recovery. That Splinter is a real piece of work.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't think they even care .
They ( AMAT ) laid off hundreds of people * after * it was established that the semiconductor industry ( including capital equipment ) was on its way to strong recovery .
That Splinter is a real piece of work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't think they even care.
They (AMAT) laid off hundreds of people *after* it was established that the semiconductor industry (including capital equipment) was on its way to strong recovery.
That Splinter is a real piece of work.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530026</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530226</id>
	<title>American economy is too consumption based.</title>
	<author>TheNarrator</author>
	<datestamp>1268912640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You know, a mainstream economist would say that having companies like Applied Materials in the U.S.A doesn't matter because consumer spending is 70\% of the economy and Applied Materials does not produce anything that consumers buy directly!  That's the problem with Keynesian economics.  We think we can get ahead by stimulus and just consuming things and not producing things.    People who have read and understood Friedrich Hayek's works know that the producers of goods further back in the chain of production are out competed for resources of all kinds by the consumption sectors when consumer credit is stimulated through cheap consumer credit as it has been in the USA over the previous 30 years.  These firms that produce goods further from direct consumption by the consumer have to move to a less consumer oriented economy, like China to have better access to land, labor and capital.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You know , a mainstream economist would say that having companies like Applied Materials in the U.S.A does n't matter because consumer spending is 70 \ % of the economy and Applied Materials does not produce anything that consumers buy directly !
That 's the problem with Keynesian economics .
We think we can get ahead by stimulus and just consuming things and not producing things .
People who have read and understood Friedrich Hayek 's works know that the producers of goods further back in the chain of production are out competed for resources of all kinds by the consumption sectors when consumer credit is stimulated through cheap consumer credit as it has been in the USA over the previous 30 years .
These firms that produce goods further from direct consumption by the consumer have to move to a less consumer oriented economy , like China to have better access to land , labor and capital .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You know, a mainstream economist would say that having companies like Applied Materials in the U.S.A doesn't matter because consumer spending is 70\% of the economy and Applied Materials does not produce anything that consumers buy directly!
That's the problem with Keynesian economics.
We think we can get ahead by stimulus and just consuming things and not producing things.
People who have read and understood Friedrich Hayek's works know that the producers of goods further back in the chain of production are out competed for resources of all kinds by the consumption sectors when consumer credit is stimulated through cheap consumer credit as it has been in the USA over the previous 30 years.
These firms that produce goods further from direct consumption by the consumer have to move to a less consumer oriented economy, like China to have better access to land, labor and capital.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31532756</id>
	<title>Re:Let a 50 year old Engineer tell you something</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268931840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Your point is proven by the Soviet experience.  Russia had excellent accomplishments in research and theory, but were behind in manufacturing.  Denied access to western production experience, which was historically more advanced, they were unable to catch up, which resulted in the Soviets losing the cold war.</p><p>The U.S. transfered its production experience and technology to Asia and gave away its historical lead.  Our ability to do research is ecoomically as irrelevant as was the Soviet's ability, because the ideas grounded in reality come from experience in production.  You can look at an iPod all you want, but the relevant thing is to look at the factory that can produce an iPod.  Even more important is the factory that can produce the tools used in the factory that produces the iPod, and this is the role that Applied Materials plays.</p><p>"Free Trade" policy at the government level, by which is meant massive trade deficit policy and the abandonment of manufacturing, leaves individual companies no choice over the long run but to follow the exodus to those countries, like China, Japan, and Germany, whose governments value manufacturing.  They believe that "the wealth of nations" comes from the ability to produce, rather than froom the ability to consume.</p><p>The ability to produce comes from the practice of production, and the interest in effective research comes from being faced with the problems of production.  Companies like Apple and Applied Materials are no longer relevant to the U.S. economy because everything they produce goes to improve production in China, not in America, and as a result their operations will gradually move to the economy in which their work is most directly applied.  First, of course, they may import tens of thouands of employees from those economies, a step which they have already taken.  Moving the rest of their operations will happen over time, or in the case of Applied Materials, now.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Your point is proven by the Soviet experience .
Russia had excellent accomplishments in research and theory , but were behind in manufacturing .
Denied access to western production experience , which was historically more advanced , they were unable to catch up , which resulted in the Soviets losing the cold war.The U.S. transfered its production experience and technology to Asia and gave away its historical lead .
Our ability to do research is ecoomically as irrelevant as was the Soviet 's ability , because the ideas grounded in reality come from experience in production .
You can look at an iPod all you want , but the relevant thing is to look at the factory that can produce an iPod .
Even more important is the factory that can produce the tools used in the factory that produces the iPod , and this is the role that Applied Materials plays .
" Free Trade " policy at the government level , by which is meant massive trade deficit policy and the abandonment of manufacturing , leaves individual companies no choice over the long run but to follow the exodus to those countries , like China , Japan , and Germany , whose governments value manufacturing .
They believe that " the wealth of nations " comes from the ability to produce , rather than froom the ability to consume.The ability to produce comes from the practice of production , and the interest in effective research comes from being faced with the problems of production .
Companies like Apple and Applied Materials are no longer relevant to the U.S. economy because everything they produce goes to improve production in China , not in America , and as a result their operations will gradually move to the economy in which their work is most directly applied .
First , of course , they may import tens of thouands of employees from those economies , a step which they have already taken .
Moving the rest of their operations will happen over time , or in the case of Applied Materials , now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Your point is proven by the Soviet experience.
Russia had excellent accomplishments in research and theory, but were behind in manufacturing.
Denied access to western production experience, which was historically more advanced, they were unable to catch up, which resulted in the Soviets losing the cold war.The U.S. transfered its production experience and technology to Asia and gave away its historical lead.
Our ability to do research is ecoomically as irrelevant as was the Soviet's ability, because the ideas grounded in reality come from experience in production.
You can look at an iPod all you want, but the relevant thing is to look at the factory that can produce an iPod.
Even more important is the factory that can produce the tools used in the factory that produces the iPod, and this is the role that Applied Materials plays.
"Free Trade" policy at the government level, by which is meant massive trade deficit policy and the abandonment of manufacturing, leaves individual companies no choice over the long run but to follow the exodus to those countries, like China, Japan, and Germany, whose governments value manufacturing.
They believe that "the wealth of nations" comes from the ability to produce, rather than froom the ability to consume.The ability to produce comes from the practice of production, and the interest in effective research comes from being faced with the problems of production.
Companies like Apple and Applied Materials are no longer relevant to the U.S. economy because everything they produce goes to improve production in China, not in America, and as a result their operations will gradually move to the economy in which their work is most directly applied.
First, of course, they may import tens of thouands of employees from those economies, a step which they have already taken.
Moving the rest of their operations will happen over time, or in the case of Applied Materials, now.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530788</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31534256</id>
	<title>Re:Let a 50 year old Engineer tell you something</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268997960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm sure those who are able software creators can relate to this as well.</p><p>You don't learn to program by reading books or by attending lectures.  You learn to program by programming and going through the mistakes and refining the successes.</p><p>Yes it takes work, and mistakes, but that's how and when you learn.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm sure those who are able software creators can relate to this as well.You do n't learn to program by reading books or by attending lectures .
You learn to program by programming and going through the mistakes and refining the successes.Yes it takes work , and mistakes , but that 's how and when you learn .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm sure those who are able software creators can relate to this as well.You don't learn to program by reading books or by attending lectures.
You learn to program by programming and going through the mistakes and refining the successes.Yes it takes work, and mistakes, but that's how and when you learn.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530788</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31533278</id>
	<title>Re:"free traders"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268937840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Blaming a corporation makes as much sense as blaming a building."</p><p>This does not make sense. Corporations are made out of people, buildings of bricks. Also, I could say "that was a poorly designed building - its dangerous!" and I guess I would be implicitly blaming the designer of said building. Buildings are maintained by people, and it makes perfect sense to complain about building services (electricity, water, heat, etc.).</p><p>I'll blame people in corporations, who put aside the consequences of their actions under the cover 'maximizing shareholder value' or whatever.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Blaming a corporation makes as much sense as blaming a building .
" This does not make sense .
Corporations are made out of people , buildings of bricks .
Also , I could say " that was a poorly designed building - its dangerous !
" and I guess I would be implicitly blaming the designer of said building .
Buildings are maintained by people , and it makes perfect sense to complain about building services ( electricity , water , heat , etc .
) .I 'll blame people in corporations , who put aside the consequences of their actions under the cover 'maximizing shareholder value ' or whatever .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Blaming a corporation makes as much sense as blaming a building.
"This does not make sense.
Corporations are made out of people, buildings of bricks.
Also, I could say "that was a poorly designed building - its dangerous!
" and I guess I would be implicitly blaming the designer of said building.
Buildings are maintained by people, and it makes perfect sense to complain about building services (electricity, water, heat, etc.
).I'll blame people in corporations, who put aside the consequences of their actions under the cover 'maximizing shareholder value' or whatever.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530446</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530794</id>
	<title>Re:Good news if it results in less regulation</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268916060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's no troll. Competition, real competition, involves worker sacrifice. Workers must compete with each other, fight for jobs, and devil take the hindmost just as companies compete with each other for sales.</p><p>Sucks, but not avoidable. Every competing worker is an enemy just as every competing business is an enemy. Business is war.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's no troll .
Competition , real competition , involves worker sacrifice .
Workers must compete with each other , fight for jobs , and devil take the hindmost just as companies compete with each other for sales.Sucks , but not avoidable .
Every competing worker is an enemy just as every competing business is an enemy .
Business is war .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's no troll.
Competition, real competition, involves worker sacrifice.
Workers must compete with each other, fight for jobs, and devil take the hindmost just as companies compete with each other for sales.Sucks, but not avoidable.
Every competing worker is an enemy just as every competing business is an enemy.
Business is war.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530020</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531306</id>
	<title>Re:I wonder what will happen in the long run?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268919420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; As China gets richer, they'll be importing more high-tech products</p><p>That's what everyone else was hoping.</p><p>But I think what the Chinese want to do is to be *making* the high tech stuff just in time for when the local demand hits. The plan is that China will be buying from China and selling to everyone else.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; As China gets richer , they 'll be importing more high-tech productsThat 's what everyone else was hoping.But I think what the Chinese want to do is to be * making * the high tech stuff just in time for when the local demand hits .
The plan is that China will be buying from China and selling to everyone else .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; As China gets richer, they'll be importing more high-tech productsThat's what everyone else was hoping.But I think what the Chinese want to do is to be *making* the high tech stuff just in time for when the local demand hits.
The plan is that China will be buying from China and selling to everyone else.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530140</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31546374</id>
	<title>Re:Hey!</title>
	<author>fcamatti</author>
	<datestamp>1269008220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Hey guys!  you know that there's a continent called South America????</htmltext>
<tokenext>Hey guys !
you know that there 's a continent called South America ? ? ?
?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hey guys!
you know that there's a continent called South America???
?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530034</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530996</id>
	<title>Re:America has something better</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268917380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>All this social media stuff is seeming a little like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>All this social media stuff is seeming a little like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>All this social media stuff is seeming a little like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529838</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31532746</id>
	<title>Re:"free traders"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268931720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>This was a huge wake up call when I realized that most of the companies in the U.S. only do sales, marketing, and distribution - that's a very scary position for a nation to be in.</p></div><p>Not necessarily. Distribution is where the big profit potential is now. Manufacturing costs used to be about 50\% of the shelf price of a product. Due to manufacturing improvements in the last 100 years, manufacturing costs are now 5\%-20\% of the shelf price of many products, the rest is distribution. Find a way to reduce manufacturing costs by 10\% on a $100 product gives you very little competitive advantage these days. Find a way to reduce marketing and distribution costs by 10\% and you have a significant competitive advantage.</p><p>So, targeted advertising (eg: google) and streamlined physical distribution (eg: amazon) are the current big opportunities. Don't let your thinking be stuck in the industrial age. It is inevitable and desirable that the benefits of the industrial age be spread to the third world. It doesn't mean that the US or other industrialised countries will return to agrarian economies (I'm doing hyperbole, not a straw man) it means we will move on to the tougher (and more profitable) problems the newly industrialised countries aren't ready to tackle yet.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>This was a huge wake up call when I realized that most of the companies in the U.S. only do sales , marketing , and distribution - that 's a very scary position for a nation to be in.Not necessarily .
Distribution is where the big profit potential is now .
Manufacturing costs used to be about 50 \ % of the shelf price of a product .
Due to manufacturing improvements in the last 100 years , manufacturing costs are now 5 \ % -20 \ % of the shelf price of many products , the rest is distribution .
Find a way to reduce manufacturing costs by 10 \ % on a $ 100 product gives you very little competitive advantage these days .
Find a way to reduce marketing and distribution costs by 10 \ % and you have a significant competitive advantage.So , targeted advertising ( eg : google ) and streamlined physical distribution ( eg : amazon ) are the current big opportunities .
Do n't let your thinking be stuck in the industrial age .
It is inevitable and desirable that the benefits of the industrial age be spread to the third world .
It does n't mean that the US or other industrialised countries will return to agrarian economies ( I 'm doing hyperbole , not a straw man ) it means we will move on to the tougher ( and more profitable ) problems the newly industrialised countries are n't ready to tackle yet .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This was a huge wake up call when I realized that most of the companies in the U.S. only do sales, marketing, and distribution - that's a very scary position for a nation to be in.Not necessarily.
Distribution is where the big profit potential is now.
Manufacturing costs used to be about 50\% of the shelf price of a product.
Due to manufacturing improvements in the last 100 years, manufacturing costs are now 5\%-20\% of the shelf price of many products, the rest is distribution.
Find a way to reduce manufacturing costs by 10\% on a $100 product gives you very little competitive advantage these days.
Find a way to reduce marketing and distribution costs by 10\% and you have a significant competitive advantage.So, targeted advertising (eg: google) and streamlined physical distribution (eg: amazon) are the current big opportunities.
Don't let your thinking be stuck in the industrial age.
It is inevitable and desirable that the benefits of the industrial age be spread to the third world.
It doesn't mean that the US or other industrialised countries will return to agrarian economies (I'm doing hyperbole, not a straw man) it means we will move on to the tougher (and more profitable) problems the newly industrialised countries aren't ready to tackle yet.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530446</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530734</id>
	<title>Don't forget pizza delivery</title>
	<author>Xtifr</author>
	<datestamp>1268915700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't forget <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow\_crash" title="wikipedia.org">pizza delivery</a> [wikipedia.org]!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't forget pizza delivery [ wikipedia.org ] !
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't forget pizza delivery [wikipedia.org]!
:)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529808</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31542278</id>
	<title>Re:Western and Eastern educations are not equivale</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269029700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Anyone who has worked in advanced R&amp;D is aware that just knowing a huge amount of facts isn't of much use.</p></div><p>Thats a nice little consolation for your weakness. But you need to ask the question, how can one possess creativity? Of course creativity comes through from learning and understanding. People can only be creative when they know many things, and understand many concepts. And what is the key to knowing and understanding? It's your memory. If you don't have the good memory to learn and understand things, how can you be creative? Think about that!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Anyone who has worked in advanced R&amp;D is aware that just knowing a huge amount of facts is n't of much use.Thats a nice little consolation for your weakness .
But you need to ask the question , how can one possess creativity ?
Of course creativity comes through from learning and understanding .
People can only be creative when they know many things , and understand many concepts .
And what is the key to knowing and understanding ?
It 's your memory .
If you do n't have the good memory to learn and understand things , how can you be creative ?
Think about that !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Anyone who has worked in advanced R&amp;D is aware that just knowing a huge amount of facts isn't of much use.Thats a nice little consolation for your weakness.
But you need to ask the question, how can one possess creativity?
Of course creativity comes through from learning and understanding.
People can only be creative when they know many things, and understand many concepts.
And what is the key to knowing and understanding?
It's your memory.
If you don't have the good memory to learn and understand things, how can you be creative?
Think about that!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530244</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31544790</id>
	<title>Re:Let a 50 year old Engineer tell you something</title>
	<author>CompMD</author>
	<datestamp>1268997480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree with GuyFawkes.  Find a retired engineer or engineering professor with some industry experience.</p><p>I was once much like you.  I had education, and was working, but I didn't necessarily understand best practices in aerospace or have instinct.  A lot of that comes with time, but a seed is necessary; a good mentor can be that seed.  I was very, very lucky to have one of the greatest living aircraft designers as my mentor.  You probably have some of his aircraft design books.  He introduced me to engineering problems (and their consequences) in the aerospace field, and his lessons were like nothing you could ever learn in class.  It was made very clear that in this field, your laziness, cheapness, or mistakes will kill people.</p><p>Story Time with Uncle Compmd:<br>We were involved in design consultation for a small company designing and building a low cost, composite VLJ.  It had been made clear that there were some things they *had* to do, regardless of cost, because otherwise they risked killing people.  They didn't listen.  They completed a prototype and had several successful test flights, until the folly of their ways came back to bite them.  Conditions were SCT010 or close, with a 12kt crosswind gusting to 18kts.  On takeoff, just after rotation, a crosswind gust slightly rolled the aircraft left.  The pilot commanded a roll to the right to keep wings level for climbout.  Instead, the aircraft rolled harder left.  Assuming more gusting, the test pilot commanded more right roll.  What the pilot didn't know is that in maintenance, a mechanic had accidentally reversed the control connections to the ailerons.  The  pilot rolled the aircraft far enough that the left wing clipped the ground, causing the aircraft to flip end over end, crashing into the runway, killing both pilots.  The moral of the story was not to design your controls in such a way that you could hook them up backwards!  This simple, stupid lesson has claimed many lives, and yet engineers and mechanics keep repeating their past mistakes.  That's not a lesson you learn in school, its something you learn from the real world, from real engineers.</p><p>Today, I might not be as old or as experienced as some of my fellow engineers, but I had the benefit of a mentor who was passionate about his field, and that has shaped me into the engineer I am like no class ever could.  He knew that his stories could shape future engineers and did his best to share them with younger generations.  Because of that mentoring, I've had many experienced engineers look at me completely differently when they find out who I worked under.  I haven't seen my mentor in a couple years since I've gone on to bigger and better things.  However, I've taken everything I've learned from him with me, and find myself repeating stories (just like right now) to younger engineers, and helping the company I work for make great products.</p><p>So go find yourself an old aerospace engineer and talk to him.  Odds are you'll make his day when you ask for some stories and lessons learned.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree with GuyFawkes .
Find a retired engineer or engineering professor with some industry experience.I was once much like you .
I had education , and was working , but I did n't necessarily understand best practices in aerospace or have instinct .
A lot of that comes with time , but a seed is necessary ; a good mentor can be that seed .
I was very , very lucky to have one of the greatest living aircraft designers as my mentor .
You probably have some of his aircraft design books .
He introduced me to engineering problems ( and their consequences ) in the aerospace field , and his lessons were like nothing you could ever learn in class .
It was made very clear that in this field , your laziness , cheapness , or mistakes will kill people.Story Time with Uncle Compmd : We were involved in design consultation for a small company designing and building a low cost , composite VLJ .
It had been made clear that there were some things they * had * to do , regardless of cost , because otherwise they risked killing people .
They did n't listen .
They completed a prototype and had several successful test flights , until the folly of their ways came back to bite them .
Conditions were SCT010 or close , with a 12kt crosswind gusting to 18kts .
On takeoff , just after rotation , a crosswind gust slightly rolled the aircraft left .
The pilot commanded a roll to the right to keep wings level for climbout .
Instead , the aircraft rolled harder left .
Assuming more gusting , the test pilot commanded more right roll .
What the pilot did n't know is that in maintenance , a mechanic had accidentally reversed the control connections to the ailerons .
The pilot rolled the aircraft far enough that the left wing clipped the ground , causing the aircraft to flip end over end , crashing into the runway , killing both pilots .
The moral of the story was not to design your controls in such a way that you could hook them up backwards !
This simple , stupid lesson has claimed many lives , and yet engineers and mechanics keep repeating their past mistakes .
That 's not a lesson you learn in school , its something you learn from the real world , from real engineers.Today , I might not be as old or as experienced as some of my fellow engineers , but I had the benefit of a mentor who was passionate about his field , and that has shaped me into the engineer I am like no class ever could .
He knew that his stories could shape future engineers and did his best to share them with younger generations .
Because of that mentoring , I 've had many experienced engineers look at me completely differently when they find out who I worked under .
I have n't seen my mentor in a couple years since I 've gone on to bigger and better things .
However , I 've taken everything I 've learned from him with me , and find myself repeating stories ( just like right now ) to younger engineers , and helping the company I work for make great products.So go find yourself an old aerospace engineer and talk to him .
Odds are you 'll make his day when you ask for some stories and lessons learned .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree with GuyFawkes.
Find a retired engineer or engineering professor with some industry experience.I was once much like you.
I had education, and was working, but I didn't necessarily understand best practices in aerospace or have instinct.
A lot of that comes with time, but a seed is necessary; a good mentor can be that seed.
I was very, very lucky to have one of the greatest living aircraft designers as my mentor.
You probably have some of his aircraft design books.
He introduced me to engineering problems (and their consequences) in the aerospace field, and his lessons were like nothing you could ever learn in class.
It was made very clear that in this field, your laziness, cheapness, or mistakes will kill people.Story Time with Uncle Compmd:We were involved in design consultation for a small company designing and building a low cost, composite VLJ.
It had been made clear that there were some things they *had* to do, regardless of cost, because otherwise they risked killing people.
They didn't listen.
They completed a prototype and had several successful test flights, until the folly of their ways came back to bite them.
Conditions were SCT010 or close, with a 12kt crosswind gusting to 18kts.
On takeoff, just after rotation, a crosswind gust slightly rolled the aircraft left.
The pilot commanded a roll to the right to keep wings level for climbout.
Instead, the aircraft rolled harder left.
Assuming more gusting, the test pilot commanded more right roll.
What the pilot didn't know is that in maintenance, a mechanic had accidentally reversed the control connections to the ailerons.
The  pilot rolled the aircraft far enough that the left wing clipped the ground, causing the aircraft to flip end over end, crashing into the runway, killing both pilots.
The moral of the story was not to design your controls in such a way that you could hook them up backwards!
This simple, stupid lesson has claimed many lives, and yet engineers and mechanics keep repeating their past mistakes.
That's not a lesson you learn in school, its something you learn from the real world, from real engineers.Today, I might not be as old or as experienced as some of my fellow engineers, but I had the benefit of a mentor who was passionate about his field, and that has shaped me into the engineer I am like no class ever could.
He knew that his stories could shape future engineers and did his best to share them with younger generations.
Because of that mentoring, I've had many experienced engineers look at me completely differently when they find out who I worked under.
I haven't seen my mentor in a couple years since I've gone on to bigger and better things.
However, I've taken everything I've learned from him with me, and find myself repeating stories (just like right now) to younger engineers, and helping the company I work for make great products.So go find yourself an old aerospace engineer and talk to him.
Odds are you'll make his day when you ask for some stories and lessons learned.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31533716</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531464</id>
	<title>Re:Outsourcing</title>
	<author>hackingbear</author>
	<datestamp>1268920500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>No, the biggest trouble nowaday is not the government pulling the rug from under your feet but that you just do real estate flip-flopping instead of R&amp;D in the ultra hot real estate bubble there. don't know about this particular deal, but most of these "high tech" parks are just real estate schemes disguised as high tech industry R&amp;D and enriching high tech companies with no high tech but high-end connections. That's good for us because we probably don't have too much to really worry about. When their governments become less corrupted and companies are really doing R&amp;D, then we would have to really worry. Not now. so cross your fingers that they remain like this.</htmltext>
<tokenext>No , the biggest trouble nowaday is not the government pulling the rug from under your feet but that you just do real estate flip-flopping instead of R&amp;D in the ultra hot real estate bubble there .
do n't know about this particular deal , but most of these " high tech " parks are just real estate schemes disguised as high tech industry R&amp;D and enriching high tech companies with no high tech but high-end connections .
That 's good for us because we probably do n't have too much to really worry about .
When their governments become less corrupted and companies are really doing R&amp;D , then we would have to really worry .
Not now .
so cross your fingers that they remain like this .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, the biggest trouble nowaday is not the government pulling the rug from under your feet but that you just do real estate flip-flopping instead of R&amp;D in the ultra hot real estate bubble there.
don't know about this particular deal, but most of these "high tech" parks are just real estate schemes disguised as high tech industry R&amp;D and enriching high tech companies with no high tech but high-end connections.
That's good for us because we probably don't have too much to really worry about.
When their governments become less corrupted and companies are really doing R&amp;D, then we would have to really worry.
Not now.
so cross your fingers that they remain like this.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31529852</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31533700</id>
	<title>Re:Western and Eastern educations are not equivale</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1269031560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I love the way you copy/pasted the name and still got it wrong.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I love the way you copy/pasted the name and still got it wrong .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I love the way you copy/pasted the name and still got it wrong.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530470</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31532956</id>
	<title>And why do companies move overseas?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268934060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>To save money, Why? For a bump in the stock to please shareholders.</p><p>So what do we do instead?  Invest.</p><p>Stock market is doing ok while unemployment in the US remains around 10\%.</p><p>The only vote that counts anymore is the one with your dollar.  We were afraid of Japan as well in the 80s.  What American's do better than anyone else is run a business, that is the strength of our system.  There are many problems contributing to the exodus of jobs, ever have to deal with unionized labor?  If I were I CEO and it were either my beach house or your job.  Well, it's going to be your job.</p><p>Investing or entrepreneurship is where it has always been in America and where it will be.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>To save money , Why ?
For a bump in the stock to please shareholders.So what do we do instead ?
Invest.Stock market is doing ok while unemployment in the US remains around 10 \ % .The only vote that counts anymore is the one with your dollar .
We were afraid of Japan as well in the 80s .
What American 's do better than anyone else is run a business , that is the strength of our system .
There are many problems contributing to the exodus of jobs , ever have to deal with unionized labor ?
If I were I CEO and it were either my beach house or your job .
Well , it 's going to be your job.Investing or entrepreneurship is where it has always been in America and where it will be .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To save money, Why?
For a bump in the stock to please shareholders.So what do we do instead?
Invest.Stock market is doing ok while unemployment in the US remains around 10\%.The only vote that counts anymore is the one with your dollar.
We were afraid of Japan as well in the 80s.
What American's do better than anyone else is run a business, that is the strength of our system.
There are many problems contributing to the exodus of jobs, ever have to deal with unionized labor?
If I were I CEO and it were either my beach house or your job.
Well, it's going to be your job.Investing or entrepreneurship is where it has always been in America and where it will be.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31531278</id>
	<title>Re:I wonder if they still get a tax break?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268919120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We know that that is true at least for companies like IBM (the New York deal).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We know that that is true at least for companies like IBM ( the New York deal ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We know that that is true at least for companies like IBM (the New York deal).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530026</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31533202</id>
	<title>Re:Western and Eastern educations are not equivale</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268936700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I hear this a lot, about how the Chinese and Indians are supposedly so much smarter than Americans, Europeans, Australians and the Japanese. Having worked in industry and academia with them, I can tell you that it's a load of bunk.</p><p>The education there is very different from that of Western nations. Since they have so many people competing for comparatively few spots, they resort to various aptitude tests to try and weed out people. The people who succeed here are the ones who can memorize huge amounts of otherwise useless information, and regurgitate it at will.</p><p>Anyone who has worked in advanced R&amp;D is aware that just knowing a huge amount of facts isn't of much use. With the Internet and computers making information retrieval trivial, memorizing huge amounts of information really isn't as beneficial as it may have been.</p><p>In R&amp;D, the main factor to consider is how inventive and innovative a researcher is. That doesn't come from being "book smart". It comes from being able to think flexibly and creatively. This is a trait that is encouraged in the academia of the West, but denounced and suppressed in the East.</p><p>Take software development. Sure, Indians can rattle off all sorts of near-useless data about class hierarchies and method signatures and algorithm runtime complexities (you know, the sort of stuff the rest of us would just search for online or in a book). However, ask them to perform a task that requires some innovation, trial-and-error or critical thinking, and they're totally lost. That's why so many software projects developed in India by Indian-trained developers fail so horribly.</p></div><p>I hear a lot about how whites are superior than other races but I am not dumb enough to beleive it<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I hear this a lot , about how the Chinese and Indians are supposedly so much smarter than Americans , Europeans , Australians and the Japanese .
Having worked in industry and academia with them , I can tell you that it 's a load of bunk.The education there is very different from that of Western nations .
Since they have so many people competing for comparatively few spots , they resort to various aptitude tests to try and weed out people .
The people who succeed here are the ones who can memorize huge amounts of otherwise useless information , and regurgitate it at will.Anyone who has worked in advanced R&amp;D is aware that just knowing a huge amount of facts is n't of much use .
With the Internet and computers making information retrieval trivial , memorizing huge amounts of information really is n't as beneficial as it may have been.In R&amp;D , the main factor to consider is how inventive and innovative a researcher is .
That does n't come from being " book smart " .
It comes from being able to think flexibly and creatively .
This is a trait that is encouraged in the academia of the West , but denounced and suppressed in the East.Take software development .
Sure , Indians can rattle off all sorts of near-useless data about class hierarchies and method signatures and algorithm runtime complexities ( you know , the sort of stuff the rest of us would just search for online or in a book ) .
However , ask them to perform a task that requires some innovation , trial-and-error or critical thinking , and they 're totally lost .
That 's why so many software projects developed in India by Indian-trained developers fail so horribly.I hear a lot about how whites are superior than other races but I am not dumb enough to beleive it .. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I hear this a lot, about how the Chinese and Indians are supposedly so much smarter than Americans, Europeans, Australians and the Japanese.
Having worked in industry and academia with them, I can tell you that it's a load of bunk.The education there is very different from that of Western nations.
Since they have so many people competing for comparatively few spots, they resort to various aptitude tests to try and weed out people.
The people who succeed here are the ones who can memorize huge amounts of otherwise useless information, and regurgitate it at will.Anyone who has worked in advanced R&amp;D is aware that just knowing a huge amount of facts isn't of much use.
With the Internet and computers making information retrieval trivial, memorizing huge amounts of information really isn't as beneficial as it may have been.In R&amp;D, the main factor to consider is how inventive and innovative a researcher is.
That doesn't come from being "book smart".
It comes from being able to think flexibly and creatively.
This is a trait that is encouraged in the academia of the West, but denounced and suppressed in the East.Take software development.
Sure, Indians can rattle off all sorts of near-useless data about class hierarchies and method signatures and algorithm runtime complexities (you know, the sort of stuff the rest of us would just search for online or in a book).
However, ask them to perform a task that requires some innovation, trial-and-error or critical thinking, and they're totally lost.
That's why so many software projects developed in India by Indian-trained developers fail so horribly.I hear a lot about how whites are superior than other races but I am not dumb enough to beleive it ...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_18_2124233.31530244</parent>
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