<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_03_11_0344233</id>
	<title>The Future of Wind Power May Be Underground</title>
	<author>samzenpus</author>
	<datestamp>1268335200000</datestamp>
	<htmltext><a href="http://hughpickens.com/" rel="nofollow">Hugh Pickens</a> writes <i>"When the wind is blowing, it is usually the cheapest peaking power available. However utilities need consistent always-on power from large, cheap coal and nuclear power plants that are the backbone of the electric grid. Wired reports that operators are looking at <a href="http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/03/compressed-air-plants/">Compressed Air Energy Storage (CAES)</a> using abandoned mines and sandstones of the Midwest to store compressed-air. This converts the intermittent motions of the air into a steady power source by using it to run air compressors to pump air into an underground cave where it's stored under pressure. The <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/1991/09/29/business/technology-using-compressed-air-to-store-up-electricity.html">first CAES plant in the United States</a> actually went online in McIntosh, Alabama in 1991 where engineers created a geological pocket 900 feet long and up to 238 feet wide in a dome by pumping water into it to dissolve the rock salt. When the (briny) water was pumped back out, the salt resealed itself and they had an air-tight container."</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hugh Pickens writes " When the wind is blowing , it is usually the cheapest peaking power available .
However utilities need consistent always-on power from large , cheap coal and nuclear power plants that are the backbone of the electric grid .
Wired reports that operators are looking at Compressed Air Energy Storage ( CAES ) using abandoned mines and sandstones of the Midwest to store compressed-air .
This converts the intermittent motions of the air into a steady power source by using it to run air compressors to pump air into an underground cave where it 's stored under pressure .
The first CAES plant in the United States actually went online in McIntosh , Alabama in 1991 where engineers created a geological pocket 900 feet long and up to 238 feet wide in a dome by pumping water into it to dissolve the rock salt .
When the ( briny ) water was pumped back out , the salt resealed itself and they had an air-tight container .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hugh Pickens writes "When the wind is blowing, it is usually the cheapest peaking power available.
However utilities need consistent always-on power from large, cheap coal and nuclear power plants that are the backbone of the electric grid.
Wired reports that operators are looking at Compressed Air Energy Storage (CAES) using abandoned mines and sandstones of the Midwest to store compressed-air.
This converts the intermittent motions of the air into a steady power source by using it to run air compressors to pump air into an underground cave where it's stored under pressure.
The first CAES plant in the United States actually went online in McIntosh, Alabama in 1991 where engineers created a geological pocket 900 feet long and up to 238 feet wide in a dome by pumping water into it to dissolve the rock salt.
When the (briny) water was pumped back out, the salt resealed itself and they had an air-tight container.
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31439964</id>
	<title>Giant flywheels</title>
	<author>rcb1974</author>
	<datestamp>1268330760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Another way to store the energy is to spin up giant flywheels.  Then when you want to recover the energy, just allow the flywheel to spin down while turning a generator.  Alternatively, if there is no wind, just allow other more steady sources of green power to pick up the slack.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Another way to store the energy is to spin up giant flywheels .
Then when you want to recover the energy , just allow the flywheel to spin down while turning a generator .
Alternatively , if there is no wind , just allow other more steady sources of green power to pick up the slack .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Another way to store the energy is to spin up giant flywheels.
Then when you want to recover the energy, just allow the flywheel to spin down while turning a generator.
Alternatively, if there is no wind, just allow other more steady sources of green power to pick up the slack.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435356</id>
	<title>Max Pressure?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268340840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm curious... I wonder how high the psi could get before something broke.  I mean, the weak link would definitely be the seal (one would think).  I suppose you could get some pretty dense air underground... very interesting idea.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm curious... I wonder how high the psi could get before something broke .
I mean , the weak link would definitely be the seal ( one would think ) .
I suppose you could get some pretty dense air underground... very interesting idea .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm curious... I wonder how high the psi could get before something broke.
I mean, the weak link would definitely be the seal (one would think).
I suppose you could get some pretty dense air underground... very interesting idea.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31438064</id>
	<title>Re:advantages and disadvantages of compressed air</title>
	<author>Locklin</author>
	<datestamp>1268325180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Some systems can store large quantities of energy but cannot release it quickly (diesel fuel -barely burns), while others contain relatively little energy but can release it very quickly (gun powder). The quantity of storage is less important than the characteristics of the energy storage system.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Some systems can store large quantities of energy but can not release it quickly ( diesel fuel -barely burns ) , while others contain relatively little energy but can release it very quickly ( gun powder ) .
The quantity of storage is less important than the characteristics of the energy storage system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Some systems can store large quantities of energy but cannot release it quickly (diesel fuel -barely burns), while others contain relatively little energy but can release it very quickly (gun powder).
The quantity of storage is less important than the characteristics of the energy storage system.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436484</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436192</id>
	<title>Re:Unwater Bags</title>
	<author>dangitman</author>
	<datestamp>1268311020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Unwater? So, is that a solid, a gas, or plasma?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Unwater ?
So , is that a solid , a gas , or plasma ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unwater?
So, is that a solid, a gas, or plasma?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435228</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31452160</id>
	<title>Re:Generate a Vacuum</title>
	<author>ResidentSourcerer</author>
	<datestamp>1268412000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>MANY years ago, Scientific American had such a proposal.  The expected costs at that point were less than purchasing a surface right of way for an interstate.</p><p>They were also looking at running them a substantial distance underground, so that gravity was used as an assist to accelerate and decelerate the train.  My  recollection was that the vacuum was a lot harder than 1-3 psi. I think they were talking about a few mmHg.  Small enough that even running trains a 300 mph air resistance was minor.</p><p>The issue of failure modes to me is the sticky one.<br>Get a train derailment inside a tunnel, and you have major problems.  Just how do you clear the wreckage when you are 30 miles from the nearest end.  Expecially if the wreckage is shorting out the power lines.</p><p>(Ok, ok.  You cut the line near the wreck, pull out hte cars,<br>Haul the bits out.  Extend the power line a car.  Repeat.</p><p>Imagine being on the train, and hearing the door gasket leaking as you go through the lock into the tunnel.</p><p>Be a cool way to move freight.  Could be faster than truck, cheaper than air.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>MANY years ago , Scientific American had such a proposal .
The expected costs at that point were less than purchasing a surface right of way for an interstate.They were also looking at running them a substantial distance underground , so that gravity was used as an assist to accelerate and decelerate the train .
My recollection was that the vacuum was a lot harder than 1-3 psi .
I think they were talking about a few mmHg .
Small enough that even running trains a 300 mph air resistance was minor.The issue of failure modes to me is the sticky one.Get a train derailment inside a tunnel , and you have major problems .
Just how do you clear the wreckage when you are 30 miles from the nearest end .
Expecially if the wreckage is shorting out the power lines .
( Ok , ok. You cut the line near the wreck , pull out hte cars,Haul the bits out .
Extend the power line a car .
Repeat.Imagine being on the train , and hearing the door gasket leaking as you go through the lock into the tunnel.Be a cool way to move freight .
Could be faster than truck , cheaper than air .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>MANY years ago, Scientific American had such a proposal.
The expected costs at that point were less than purchasing a surface right of way for an interstate.They were also looking at running them a substantial distance underground, so that gravity was used as an assist to accelerate and decelerate the train.
My  recollection was that the vacuum was a lot harder than 1-3 psi.
I think they were talking about a few mmHg.
Small enough that even running trains a 300 mph air resistance was minor.The issue of failure modes to me is the sticky one.Get a train derailment inside a tunnel, and you have major problems.
Just how do you clear the wreckage when you are 30 miles from the nearest end.
Expecially if the wreckage is shorting out the power lines.
(Ok, ok.  You cut the line near the wreck, pull out hte cars,Haul the bits out.
Extend the power line a car.
Repeat.Imagine being on the train, and hearing the door gasket leaking as you go through the lock into the tunnel.Be a cool way to move freight.
Could be faster than truck, cheaper than air.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435318</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436310</id>
	<title>Underground better than undersheet</title>
	<author>bigpistol</author>
	<datestamp>1268312940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>But will it smell as good?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>But will it smell as good ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But will it smell as good?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435486</id>
	<title>Re:Generate a Vacuum</title>
	<author>clarkkent09</author>
	<datestamp>1268298900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>Why not just move cities closer to each other. It would be cheaper than your idea.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why not just move cities closer to each other .
It would be cheaper than your idea .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why not just move cities closer to each other.
It would be cheaper than your idea.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435218</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436314</id>
	<title>Bags under houses</title>
	<author>kubitus</author>
	<datestamp>1268313000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I suggest another idea - but this is not applicable in the US and CAN because of how they build houses: 2by4 and plywood.<p><nobr> <wbr></nobr>.</p><p>
A brick or stone built house of app. 100m^2 placed on a flat pressurized air-bag can store 3 days of average energy consumption of a household by pumping it up by 3 inches ( 8 cm )</p><p>
Additional benefit: cushioning against earthquakes.</p><p>
This idea claims to be prior art for any patent claim coming thereafter!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I suggest another idea - but this is not applicable in the US and CAN because of how they build houses : 2by4 and plywood .
. A brick or stone built house of app .
100m ^ 2 placed on a flat pressurized air-bag can store 3 days of average energy consumption of a household by pumping it up by 3 inches ( 8 cm ) Additional benefit : cushioning against earthquakes .
This idea claims to be prior art for any patent claim coming thereafter !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I suggest another idea - but this is not applicable in the US and CAN because of how they build houses: 2by4 and plywood.
.
A brick or stone built house of app.
100m^2 placed on a flat pressurized air-bag can store 3 days of average energy consumption of a household by pumping it up by 3 inches ( 8 cm )
Additional benefit: cushioning against earthquakes.
This idea claims to be prior art for any patent claim coming thereafter!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435228</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31437168</id>
	<title>Re:Been thought off and rejected as to complex</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268321460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The problem is that trains need people on board who in general want to breath,</p></div><p>The word is breath<b>e</b>.  One draws breath in order to do it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is that trains need people on board who in general want to breath,The word is breathe .
One draws breath in order to do it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is that trains need people on board who in general want to breath,The word is breathe.
One draws breath in order to do it.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435784</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435896</id>
	<title>Re:Compared to pumped hydro</title>
	<author>ledow</author>
	<datestamp>1268305680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Not just that... pumping water is a lot harder than pumping air - just through sheer mass moved.  The mass thing does affect stuff on the way out too, so air can't "push" as big a turbine as water would but everything like that just creates more strain on the equipment.  Additionally, water is completely incompressible, so if you want to store 10,000 litres, you have to have 10,000 litres of space (and thus a large environmental concern and also restricts the power you can produce in a certain area.  However, air can be compressed incredibly well (someone was talking about 1000psi - that's nearly 700 times more than atmospheric pressure) using quite simple technology and thus you only need one-seven-hundreth of the space (or you get 700 times more "fuel" into the same space).  It has to be air-tight but that problem almost solves itself in deep underground caves, which is why we're not all swimming in natural gas at the moment.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Not just that... pumping water is a lot harder than pumping air - just through sheer mass moved .
The mass thing does affect stuff on the way out too , so air ca n't " push " as big a turbine as water would but everything like that just creates more strain on the equipment .
Additionally , water is completely incompressible , so if you want to store 10,000 litres , you have to have 10,000 litres of space ( and thus a large environmental concern and also restricts the power you can produce in a certain area .
However , air can be compressed incredibly well ( someone was talking about 1000psi - that 's nearly 700 times more than atmospheric pressure ) using quite simple technology and thus you only need one-seven-hundreth of the space ( or you get 700 times more " fuel " into the same space ) .
It has to be air-tight but that problem almost solves itself in deep underground caves , which is why we 're not all swimming in natural gas at the moment .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not just that... pumping water is a lot harder than pumping air - just through sheer mass moved.
The mass thing does affect stuff on the way out too, so air can't "push" as big a turbine as water would but everything like that just creates more strain on the equipment.
Additionally, water is completely incompressible, so if you want to store 10,000 litres, you have to have 10,000 litres of space (and thus a large environmental concern and also restricts the power you can produce in a certain area.
However, air can be compressed incredibly well (someone was talking about 1000psi - that's nearly 700 times more than atmospheric pressure) using quite simple technology and thus you only need one-seven-hundreth of the space (or you get 700 times more "fuel" into the same space).
It has to be air-tight but that problem almost solves itself in deep underground caves, which is why we're not all swimming in natural gas at the moment.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435292</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31440692</id>
	<title>Re:Efficiency</title>
	<author>Rei</author>
	<datestamp>1268333520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>1) Capacity != efficiency<br>2) Nobody is considering using cobalt/graphite 18650s (the type whose capacity loss you describe) for grid energy storage.  They're considering using phosphates and manganates and titanates.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>1 ) Capacity ! = efficiency2 ) Nobody is considering using cobalt/graphite 18650s ( the type whose capacity loss you describe ) for grid energy storage .
They 're considering using phosphates and manganates and titanates .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>1) Capacity != efficiency2) Nobody is considering using cobalt/graphite 18650s (the type whose capacity loss you describe) for grid energy storage.
They're considering using phosphates and manganates and titanates.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435546</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31439426</id>
	<title>Re:Generate a Vacuum</title>
	<author>joocemann</author>
	<datestamp>1268329020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>2 birds, 1 very expensive stone. It would probably cost a great deal of money to build tunnels, evacuate out almost all the air, and maintain that low atmosphere. Sure, it might save some energy of running the train, but the money and resources needed to do this would greatly outweigh any benefit. We are almost certainly much better off investing in other ways of producing or saving energy.</p></div><p>Really?  I know the original idea was not well delivered or *proven*, but your criticism has nothing legitimate to disprove it but is written in a tone that suggests that you are absolutely right.</p><p>If you're going to say THIS IS HOW IT IS, I want to see WHY.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>2 birds , 1 very expensive stone .
It would probably cost a great deal of money to build tunnels , evacuate out almost all the air , and maintain that low atmosphere .
Sure , it might save some energy of running the train , but the money and resources needed to do this would greatly outweigh any benefit .
We are almost certainly much better off investing in other ways of producing or saving energy.Really ?
I know the original idea was not well delivered or * proven * , but your criticism has nothing legitimate to disprove it but is written in a tone that suggests that you are absolutely right.If you 're going to say THIS IS HOW IT IS , I want to see WHY .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>2 birds, 1 very expensive stone.
It would probably cost a great deal of money to build tunnels, evacuate out almost all the air, and maintain that low atmosphere.
Sure, it might save some energy of running the train, but the money and resources needed to do this would greatly outweigh any benefit.
We are almost certainly much better off investing in other ways of producing or saving energy.Really?
I know the original idea was not well delivered or *proven*, but your criticism has nothing legitimate to disprove it but is written in a tone that suggests that you are absolutely right.If you're going to say THIS IS HOW IT IS, I want to see WHY.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435318</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435726</id>
	<title>Re:Generate a Vacuum</title>
	<author>bazorg</author>
	<datestamp>1268302980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>in short, it would suck.</htmltext>
<tokenext>in short , it would suck .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>in short, it would suck.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435318</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435898</id>
	<title>Re:Efficiency</title>
	<author>Tatarize</author>
	<datestamp>1268305680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No. You could use anything from an efficient spinning wheel with a lot of potential energy and very little friction (think super heavy pottery wheel with an engagable generator/motor) to a super-conductive coil (or looped superconductive powerline) to just stash the energy for a bit. And these will almost certainly be more efficient.</p><p>The larger problems is that we don't have enough wind to care right now, and the problem of energy storage has nothing to do with wind. It's a modular problem that simply deals with electricity on the grid, if electricity storage is needed for the inconsistent power on the grid, then it's needed. The fact that it's needed for wind power isn't something of any consideration. Such problems should have a healthy amount of encapsulation.</p><p>The total amount of battery power on the planet could power our electrical needs for ten minutes. That's not enough. It's a problem, who cares where the power comes from. This crap reminds me of that stupid idea of building another power grid for renewable power so people could know the power they get is from renewable sources. WTF.</p><p>If compressed air works well as a battery it works well as a battery, my guess is that it almost certainly doesn't work well as a battery and the failure that is the air car is quite telling of that point. Even when you can control for everything (unlike a hole in the ground (see carbon capture)) you still can't compress and get power back at anything close to efficient enough to give it a second thought.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No .
You could use anything from an efficient spinning wheel with a lot of potential energy and very little friction ( think super heavy pottery wheel with an engagable generator/motor ) to a super-conductive coil ( or looped superconductive powerline ) to just stash the energy for a bit .
And these will almost certainly be more efficient.The larger problems is that we do n't have enough wind to care right now , and the problem of energy storage has nothing to do with wind .
It 's a modular problem that simply deals with electricity on the grid , if electricity storage is needed for the inconsistent power on the grid , then it 's needed .
The fact that it 's needed for wind power is n't something of any consideration .
Such problems should have a healthy amount of encapsulation.The total amount of battery power on the planet could power our electrical needs for ten minutes .
That 's not enough .
It 's a problem , who cares where the power comes from .
This crap reminds me of that stupid idea of building another power grid for renewable power so people could know the power they get is from renewable sources .
WTF.If compressed air works well as a battery it works well as a battery , my guess is that it almost certainly does n't work well as a battery and the failure that is the air car is quite telling of that point .
Even when you can control for everything ( unlike a hole in the ground ( see carbon capture ) ) you still ca n't compress and get power back at anything close to efficient enough to give it a second thought .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No.
You could use anything from an efficient spinning wheel with a lot of potential energy and very little friction (think super heavy pottery wheel with an engagable generator/motor) to a super-conductive coil (or looped superconductive powerline) to just stash the energy for a bit.
And these will almost certainly be more efficient.The larger problems is that we don't have enough wind to care right now, and the problem of energy storage has nothing to do with wind.
It's a modular problem that simply deals with electricity on the grid, if electricity storage is needed for the inconsistent power on the grid, then it's needed.
The fact that it's needed for wind power isn't something of any consideration.
Such problems should have a healthy amount of encapsulation.The total amount of battery power on the planet could power our electrical needs for ten minutes.
That's not enough.
It's a problem, who cares where the power comes from.
This crap reminds me of that stupid idea of building another power grid for renewable power so people could know the power they get is from renewable sources.
WTF.If compressed air works well as a battery it works well as a battery, my guess is that it almost certainly doesn't work well as a battery and the failure that is the air car is quite telling of that point.
Even when you can control for everything (unlike a hole in the ground (see carbon capture)) you still can't compress and get power back at anything close to efficient enough to give it a second thought.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435248</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31450280</id>
	<title>Re:Efficiency</title>
	<author>jonadab</author>
	<datestamp>1268400300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>&gt; Li-ion batteries have round-trip efficiencies in the 90s (some chemistries in the upper 90s).<br><br>On a per-charge basis, you mean, assuming you already have the lithium-ion battery just sitting around and not otherwise being used for anything.</htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; Li-ion batteries have round-trip efficiencies in the 90s ( some chemistries in the upper 90s ) .On a per-charge basis , you mean , assuming you already have the lithium-ion battery just sitting around and not otherwise being used for anything .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; Li-ion batteries have round-trip efficiencies in the 90s (some chemistries in the upper 90s).On a per-charge basis, you mean, assuming you already have the lithium-ion battery just sitting around and not otherwise being used for anything.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435342</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31450984</id>
	<title>Only problem with this is....</title>
	<author>hesaigo999ca</author>
	<datestamp>1268405820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I tend to think the only problem with this plan is...if for some reason a fissure or earthquake ends up happening...<br>what happens to that cave/mine....will there be any environmental issues or even maybe dangerous circumstances<br>to compressing air within this manner.....and also, if there is a leak, it will be hard to know about until<br>we go to use it and notice no compression of air happening.....unless they were to also add some sort of sealed barrier from the<br>inside and maybe even add a sort of implicit device that pings back compression info and sensors for being able to find broken<br>seals.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I tend to think the only problem with this plan is...if for some reason a fissure or earthquake ends up happening...what happens to that cave/mine....will there be any environmental issues or even maybe dangerous circumstancesto compressing air within this manner.....and also , if there is a leak , it will be hard to know about untilwe go to use it and notice no compression of air happening.....unless they were to also add some sort of sealed barrier from theinside and maybe even add a sort of implicit device that pings back compression info and sensors for being able to find brokenseals .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I tend to think the only problem with this plan is...if for some reason a fissure or earthquake ends up happening...what happens to that cave/mine....will there be any environmental issues or even maybe dangerous circumstancesto compressing air within this manner.....and also, if there is a leak, it will be hard to know about untilwe go to use it and notice no compression of air happening.....unless they were to also add some sort of sealed barrier from theinside and maybe even add a sort of implicit device that pings back compression info and sensors for being able to find brokenseals.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436496</id>
	<title>"Wired" as an authoritative source?  Sheesh.</title>
	<author>Ancient\_Hacker</author>
	<datestamp>1268315820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Getting the straight poop from "Wired" is like expecting it from Fox News.</p><p>Air--pumped storage is dead from the get-go.   You compress air and a goodly percentage of the energy ends up as heat, which has to be removed from the compressor cylinder heads and is lost.  Then the hot compressed air loses heat to the walls of the cavern.   Then when you let the air expand, it cools off and you lose pressure from that effect too.</p><p>A rough guess-- you lose 50\% of the wind energy coming and going.</p><p>You can do better by pumping water uphill, where you don't have the compressive losses.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Getting the straight poop from " Wired " is like expecting it from Fox News.Air--pumped storage is dead from the get-go .
You compress air and a goodly percentage of the energy ends up as heat , which has to be removed from the compressor cylinder heads and is lost .
Then the hot compressed air loses heat to the walls of the cavern .
Then when you let the air expand , it cools off and you lose pressure from that effect too.A rough guess-- you lose 50 \ % of the wind energy coming and going.You can do better by pumping water uphill , where you do n't have the compressive losses .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Getting the straight poop from "Wired" is like expecting it from Fox News.Air--pumped storage is dead from the get-go.
You compress air and a goodly percentage of the energy ends up as heat, which has to be removed from the compressor cylinder heads and is lost.
Then the hot compressed air loses heat to the walls of the cavern.
Then when you let the air expand, it cools off and you lose pressure from that effect too.A rough guess-- you lose 50\% of the wind energy coming and going.You can do better by pumping water uphill, where you don't have the compressive losses.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31441954</id>
	<title>Re:Unwater Bags</title>
	<author>SnarfQuest</author>
	<datestamp>1268338560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>and you don't gain it all back thanks to Carnot.</p> </div><p>Damn that Carnot! We need to get together and vote him, and his stupid laws, out. Does it require a simple majority, or do we need 2/3's of the vote?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>and you do n't gain it all back thanks to Carnot .
Damn that Carnot !
We need to get together and vote him , and his stupid laws , out .
Does it require a simple majority , or do we need 2/3 's of the vote ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>and you don't gain it all back thanks to Carnot.
Damn that Carnot!
We need to get together and vote him, and his stupid laws, out.
Does it require a simple majority, or do we need 2/3's of the vote?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435228</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31450400</id>
	<title>Re:Load leveling Vs. Supply leveling</title>
	<author>jonadab</author>
	<datestamp>1268401560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>&gt; For one, nuclear plants need coolant, which is generally<br>&gt; a lake or river (again, geographically specific).<br><br>Technically, needing a lake or river narrows your options for where you can put a nuclear plant.  But in practice, this limitation is not a significant obstacle, because there are a LOT more lakes and rivers than power plants.  Heck, I think there are more lakes in Barry County, Michigan than there are power plants in the entire US.<br><br>Solar is arguably much more limited.  You can put a nuclear plant in Arizona; you just have to be careful where you put it exactly.  But you can't build a solar plant in Ohio.  Well, it technically *could* be done, but it's not economically viable.  You'd only get significant power out of it from July to September.</htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; For one , nuclear plants need coolant , which is generally &gt; a lake or river ( again , geographically specific ) .Technically , needing a lake or river narrows your options for where you can put a nuclear plant .
But in practice , this limitation is not a significant obstacle , because there are a LOT more lakes and rivers than power plants .
Heck , I think there are more lakes in Barry County , Michigan than there are power plants in the entire US.Solar is arguably much more limited .
You can put a nuclear plant in Arizona ; you just have to be careful where you put it exactly .
But you ca n't build a solar plant in Ohio .
Well , it technically * could * be done , but it 's not economically viable .
You 'd only get significant power out of it from July to September .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; For one, nuclear plants need coolant, which is generally&gt; a lake or river (again, geographically specific).Technically, needing a lake or river narrows your options for where you can put a nuclear plant.
But in practice, this limitation is not a significant obstacle, because there are a LOT more lakes and rivers than power plants.
Heck, I think there are more lakes in Barry County, Michigan than there are power plants in the entire US.Solar is arguably much more limited.
You can put a nuclear plant in Arizona; you just have to be careful where you put it exactly.
But you can't build a solar plant in Ohio.
Well, it technically *could* be done, but it's not economically viable.
You'd only get significant power out of it from July to September.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435358</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31437736</id>
	<title>hydro doesn't need supply levelling</title>
	<author>SuperBanana</author>
	<datestamp>1268324280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <i>. Using these systems we can level the load and allow the greenest power sources (nuclear, followed by hydro) to produce the vast majority of power we need (because they can run at near 100\% 24/7).</i>

</p><p>I was going to moderate you down, but decided to respond instead.

</p><p>Nuclear power requires relatively constant output levels- it's a pain in the ass to change power levels.

</p><p>Hydro has no such issues.  They can't take out more water than is being put in over the long run, but that's about it.  In fact, if they can take out less, that means they can use more later.  They should come up with a name for that!  Maybe...supply leveling!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>.
Using these systems we can level the load and allow the greenest power sources ( nuclear , followed by hydro ) to produce the vast majority of power we need ( because they can run at near 100 \ % 24/7 ) .
I was going to moderate you down , but decided to respond instead .
Nuclear power requires relatively constant output levels- it 's a pain in the ass to change power levels .
Hydro has no such issues .
They ca n't take out more water than is being put in over the long run , but that 's about it .
In fact , if they can take out less , that means they can use more later .
They should come up with a name for that !
Maybe...supply leveling !</tokentext>
<sentencetext> .
Using these systems we can level the load and allow the greenest power sources (nuclear, followed by hydro) to produce the vast majority of power we need (because they can run at near 100\% 24/7).
I was going to moderate you down, but decided to respond instead.
Nuclear power requires relatively constant output levels- it's a pain in the ass to change power levels.
Hydro has no such issues.
They can't take out more water than is being put in over the long run, but that's about it.
In fact, if they can take out less, that means they can use more later.
They should come up with a name for that!
Maybe...supply leveling!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435274</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436504</id>
	<title>Re:Load leveling Vs. Supply leveling</title>
	<author>nadaou</author>
	<datestamp>1268315880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>where I live the major hydro generation company also owns a fleet of nearby wind turbines. when the wind is blowing within minutes they slow down or speed up the dams. when the wind isn't blowing they turn the dams on full flow. no wasteful pumping water upstream, just slow down your existing dams and conserve the lake water until you need it, and they can spin up or down the dams with the daily demand cycle too (as I guess nuclear can too, but not fossil fuel burning plants). the laws of thermodynamics tells us that "efficiency is the only thing that is 100\% efficient".</p><blockquote><div><p>Using energy storage to allow nuclear and hydro to run most economically is a far better choice than using it to level the output of wind power.</p></div></blockquote><p>you have fallen into a false dichotomy. it doesn't have to be one or the other, you can have it satisfy a mix of both needs when appropriate.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>where I live the major hydro generation company also owns a fleet of nearby wind turbines .
when the wind is blowing within minutes they slow down or speed up the dams .
when the wind is n't blowing they turn the dams on full flow .
no wasteful pumping water upstream , just slow down your existing dams and conserve the lake water until you need it , and they can spin up or down the dams with the daily demand cycle too ( as I guess nuclear can too , but not fossil fuel burning plants ) .
the laws of thermodynamics tells us that " efficiency is the only thing that is 100 \ % efficient " .Using energy storage to allow nuclear and hydro to run most economically is a far better choice than using it to level the output of wind power.you have fallen into a false dichotomy .
it does n't have to be one or the other , you can have it satisfy a mix of both needs when appropriate .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>where I live the major hydro generation company also owns a fleet of nearby wind turbines.
when the wind is blowing within minutes they slow down or speed up the dams.
when the wind isn't blowing they turn the dams on full flow.
no wasteful pumping water upstream, just slow down your existing dams and conserve the lake water until you need it, and they can spin up or down the dams with the daily demand cycle too (as I guess nuclear can too, but not fossil fuel burning plants).
the laws of thermodynamics tells us that "efficiency is the only thing that is 100\% efficient".Using energy storage to allow nuclear and hydro to run most economically is a far better choice than using it to level the output of wind power.you have fallen into a false dichotomy.
it doesn't have to be one or the other, you can have it satisfy a mix of both needs when appropriate.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435274</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31438996</id>
	<title>Why not create hydrogen?</title>
	<author>swb</author>
	<datestamp>1268327640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I know it takes a lot of energy, but it can be done anywhere you have the windmills and a source of water.  You don't need abandoned mines, the right geology, to drill into the earth and bore out storage underground (how is that considered environmental, anyway?).  And what happens when the ground ruptures and you have an atomic bomb's worth of pressurized air?</p><p>The hydrogen can be used as a fuel source for more than just electric generation, it is portable and can be moved around (perhaps concentrating the small amounts generated everywhere to make a useful larger amount), and we gain the expertise in handling, converting and creating it.  It's environmentally friendly and we already know how to burn it.  You can even create it in locations where you can't realistically transmit the power you can generate (I wonder if Iceland couldn't get out of their financial jam by using geothermal to create hydrogen from sea water and then sell it as a fuel...although there's probably more money in siting aluminum smelters.)</p><p>I wonder if someone had just decided that hydrogen creation was a good idea and started doing in 10 years ago when large scale wind farms had been developed how much hydrogen could have been generated up this point.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I know it takes a lot of energy , but it can be done anywhere you have the windmills and a source of water .
You do n't need abandoned mines , the right geology , to drill into the earth and bore out storage underground ( how is that considered environmental , anyway ? ) .
And what happens when the ground ruptures and you have an atomic bomb 's worth of pressurized air ? The hydrogen can be used as a fuel source for more than just electric generation , it is portable and can be moved around ( perhaps concentrating the small amounts generated everywhere to make a useful larger amount ) , and we gain the expertise in handling , converting and creating it .
It 's environmentally friendly and we already know how to burn it .
You can even create it in locations where you ca n't realistically transmit the power you can generate ( I wonder if Iceland could n't get out of their financial jam by using geothermal to create hydrogen from sea water and then sell it as a fuel...although there 's probably more money in siting aluminum smelters .
) I wonder if someone had just decided that hydrogen creation was a good idea and started doing in 10 years ago when large scale wind farms had been developed how much hydrogen could have been generated up this point .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I know it takes a lot of energy, but it can be done anywhere you have the windmills and a source of water.
You don't need abandoned mines, the right geology, to drill into the earth and bore out storage underground (how is that considered environmental, anyway?).
And what happens when the ground ruptures and you have an atomic bomb's worth of pressurized air?The hydrogen can be used as a fuel source for more than just electric generation, it is portable and can be moved around (perhaps concentrating the small amounts generated everywhere to make a useful larger amount), and we gain the expertise in handling, converting and creating it.
It's environmentally friendly and we already know how to burn it.
You can even create it in locations where you can't realistically transmit the power you can generate (I wonder if Iceland couldn't get out of their financial jam by using geothermal to create hydrogen from sea water and then sell it as a fuel...although there's probably more money in siting aluminum smelters.
)I wonder if someone had just decided that hydrogen creation was a good idea and started doing in 10 years ago when large scale wind farms had been developed how much hydrogen could have been generated up this point.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31440652</id>
	<title>Re:advantages and disadvantages of compressed air</title>
	<author>fgouget</author>
	<datestamp>1268333400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Um, 50 gigawatt hours is about 1.8 * 10^14 joules.  That is about 43 kilotons of energy.  Now think catastrophic failure.</p></div><p>You seem to think this is a totally untested domain. However we have been doing the same sort of thing with flammable <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural\_gas\_storage#Types" title="wikipedia.org">natural gas</a> [wikipedia.org] for decades and I have not heard about any accident. So presumably the underground storage of large amounts of gas is a well tested and understood technology.

</p><p>Besides you certainly don't need or even want to store your 50 gigawatt hours of energy in just one basket. Instead you'd want multiple baskets either close to production or consumption areas.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Um , 50 gigawatt hours is about 1.8 * 10 ^ 14 joules .
That is about 43 kilotons of energy .
Now think catastrophic failure.You seem to think this is a totally untested domain .
However we have been doing the same sort of thing with flammable natural gas [ wikipedia.org ] for decades and I have not heard about any accident .
So presumably the underground storage of large amounts of gas is a well tested and understood technology .
Besides you certainly do n't need or even want to store your 50 gigawatt hours of energy in just one basket .
Instead you 'd want multiple baskets either close to production or consumption areas .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Um, 50 gigawatt hours is about 1.8 * 10^14 joules.
That is about 43 kilotons of energy.
Now think catastrophic failure.You seem to think this is a totally untested domain.
However we have been doing the same sort of thing with flammable natural gas [wikipedia.org] for decades and I have not heard about any accident.
So presumably the underground storage of large amounts of gas is a well tested and understood technology.
Besides you certainly don't need or even want to store your 50 gigawatt hours of energy in just one basket.
Instead you'd want multiple baskets either close to production or consumption areas.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436484</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31443442</id>
	<title>Re:Load leveling Vs. Supply leveling</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268299500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You kind of lost me when you said nuke and hydro were the greenest energy sources.   The green isn't implicit in these technologies -- a zillion flooded acres (HydroQuebec, china's Three Gorges), erosion and bathtub rings and nuclear's fuel / waste hazmat aren't all that green.  Windmills, solar (not just solar electricity) and tidal aren't bad.  Biomass doesn't suck.  Biodiesel, ditto.</p><p>Many of the ones I just listed are vastly more portable energy than the above two, and you did say 'energy' and not 'electricity'.</p><p>Hopefully you meant that nuke and hydro had advantages for steady-state electrical generation while still being much greener than the other big-plant staples: coal / gas.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You kind of lost me when you said nuke and hydro were the greenest energy sources .
The green is n't implicit in these technologies -- a zillion flooded acres ( HydroQuebec , china 's Three Gorges ) , erosion and bathtub rings and nuclear 's fuel / waste hazmat are n't all that green .
Windmills , solar ( not just solar electricity ) and tidal are n't bad .
Biomass does n't suck .
Biodiesel , ditto.Many of the ones I just listed are vastly more portable energy than the above two , and you did say 'energy ' and not 'electricity'.Hopefully you meant that nuke and hydro had advantages for steady-state electrical generation while still being much greener than the other big-plant staples : coal / gas .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You kind of lost me when you said nuke and hydro were the greenest energy sources.
The green isn't implicit in these technologies -- a zillion flooded acres (HydroQuebec, china's Three Gorges), erosion and bathtub rings and nuclear's fuel / waste hazmat aren't all that green.
Windmills, solar (not just solar electricity) and tidal aren't bad.
Biomass doesn't suck.
Biodiesel, ditto.Many of the ones I just listed are vastly more portable energy than the above two, and you did say 'energy' and not 'electricity'.Hopefully you meant that nuke and hydro had advantages for steady-state electrical generation while still being much greener than the other big-plant staples: coal / gas.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435274</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436486</id>
	<title>fu3ker</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268315640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>foLlowed. O3viously</htmltext>
<tokenext>foLlowed .
O3viously</tokentext>
<sentencetext>foLlowed.
O3viously</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435662</id>
	<title>Conversion losses</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268301780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Wind -&gt; Electricity -&gt;compressed air -&gt;electricity.  That should give some serious losses.  On top of that, windmills have gearboxes, brakes and all kinds of complicated crap to make them run perfectly in sync with the phase of the power grid.  So question is, would it not be cheaper to mount a basic compressor in the nacelle and have it run directly on the axle, then pump the air through a set of pipes.  Yes pipes have losses too, but remember the main cost of the windmill is its purchase, so a cheaper design might pay off?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Wind - &gt; Electricity - &gt; compressed air - &gt; electricity .
That should give some serious losses .
On top of that , windmills have gearboxes , brakes and all kinds of complicated crap to make them run perfectly in sync with the phase of the power grid .
So question is , would it not be cheaper to mount a basic compressor in the nacelle and have it run directly on the axle , then pump the air through a set of pipes .
Yes pipes have losses too , but remember the main cost of the windmill is its purchase , so a cheaper design might pay off ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wind -&gt; Electricity -&gt;compressed air -&gt;electricity.
That should give some serious losses.
On top of that, windmills have gearboxes, brakes and all kinds of complicated crap to make them run perfectly in sync with the phase of the power grid.
So question is, would it not be cheaper to mount a basic compressor in the nacelle and have it run directly on the axle, then pump the air through a set of pipes.
Yes pipes have losses too, but remember the main cost of the windmill is its purchase, so a cheaper design might pay off?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436098</id>
	<title>Re:Generate a Vacuum</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268309280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Alternatively we could build flat escalators from our front doors onto a major highway, "walk" everywhere quickly with minimal energy and power the whole thing with hamsters fed on organic cheese.</p><p>It would probably cost the same.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Alternatively we could build flat escalators from our front doors onto a major highway , " walk " everywhere quickly with minimal energy and power the whole thing with hamsters fed on organic cheese.It would probably cost the same .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Alternatively we could build flat escalators from our front doors onto a major highway, "walk" everywhere quickly with minimal energy and power the whole thing with hamsters fed on organic cheese.It would probably cost the same.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435218</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435476</id>
	<title>Re:Generate a Vacuum</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268298780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>But what happens if the train breaks down? Will people need space suits to get to the nearest exit from the tunnel?</htmltext>
<tokenext>But what happens if the train breaks down ?
Will people need space suits to get to the nearest exit from the tunnel ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But what happens if the train breaks down?
Will people need space suits to get to the nearest exit from the tunnel?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435218</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435676</id>
	<title>Re:Load leveling Vs. Supply leveling</title>
	<author>superposed</author>
	<datestamp>1268301960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You are using a false dichotomy here. In fact the best approach is to use all available flexibility to improve the match between supply and demand. There is no need to smooth out either supply or demand on a one-to-one basis. Instead, you use a smaller amount of flexible assets (hydro, pumped hydro, air storage, fast-start gas generators, electric vehicle chargers, price-sensitive customers, etc.) to fill in the gaps between the two. To the extent that variations in supply and demand (or between different locations) are uncorrelated, you can take advantage of statistical smoothing and get more bang for your buck by smoothing out the whole portfolio.</p><p>It is likely that there will be days when loads are fairly high and wind power production in the same region is relatively low. It is less likely that solar would also be low on those days. If you have customers who are willing to use less power on these rare occasions, then you can take advantage of that. If not, it doesn't cost much to build a few natural gas turbines that you only run on these rare occasions.</p><p>See, e.g., <a href="http://users.ox.ac.uk/~cenv0115/" title="ox.ac.uk">http://users.ox.ac.uk/~cenv0115/</a> [ox.ac.uk]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You are using a false dichotomy here .
In fact the best approach is to use all available flexibility to improve the match between supply and demand .
There is no need to smooth out either supply or demand on a one-to-one basis .
Instead , you use a smaller amount of flexible assets ( hydro , pumped hydro , air storage , fast-start gas generators , electric vehicle chargers , price-sensitive customers , etc .
) to fill in the gaps between the two .
To the extent that variations in supply and demand ( or between different locations ) are uncorrelated , you can take advantage of statistical smoothing and get more bang for your buck by smoothing out the whole portfolio.It is likely that there will be days when loads are fairly high and wind power production in the same region is relatively low .
It is less likely that solar would also be low on those days .
If you have customers who are willing to use less power on these rare occasions , then you can take advantage of that .
If not , it does n't cost much to build a few natural gas turbines that you only run on these rare occasions.See , e.g. , http : //users.ox.ac.uk/ ~ cenv0115/ [ ox.ac.uk ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are using a false dichotomy here.
In fact the best approach is to use all available flexibility to improve the match between supply and demand.
There is no need to smooth out either supply or demand on a one-to-one basis.
Instead, you use a smaller amount of flexible assets (hydro, pumped hydro, air storage, fast-start gas generators, electric vehicle chargers, price-sensitive customers, etc.
) to fill in the gaps between the two.
To the extent that variations in supply and demand (or between different locations) are uncorrelated, you can take advantage of statistical smoothing and get more bang for your buck by smoothing out the whole portfolio.It is likely that there will be days when loads are fairly high and wind power production in the same region is relatively low.
It is less likely that solar would also be low on those days.
If you have customers who are willing to use less power on these rare occasions, then you can take advantage of that.
If not, it doesn't cost much to build a few natural gas turbines that you only run on these rare occasions.See, e.g., http://users.ox.ac.uk/~cenv0115/ [ox.ac.uk]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435274</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435302</id>
	<title>Re:Efficiency</title>
	<author>MichaelSmith</author>
	<datestamp>1268340120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, its a way of storing the energy. Another way is to time shift. Drop the price when you have a lot of supply so that customers can charge their cars and heat their houses and water tanks using cheap power.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , its a way of storing the energy .
Another way is to time shift .
Drop the price when you have a lot of supply so that customers can charge their cars and heat their houses and water tanks using cheap power .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, its a way of storing the energy.
Another way is to time shift.
Drop the price when you have a lot of supply so that customers can charge their cars and heat their houses and water tanks using cheap power.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435248</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435894</id>
	<title>Re:Generate a Vacuum</title>
	<author>jamesh</author>
	<datestamp>1268305680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Alternatively, build the cities underground and reduce the surface atmosphere to 0-3psi and run the trains on the surface. The surface will be uninhabitable in another 100 years anyway so we might as well make it useful for something.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Alternatively , build the cities underground and reduce the surface atmosphere to 0-3psi and run the trains on the surface .
The surface will be uninhabitable in another 100 years anyway so we might as well make it useful for something .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Alternatively, build the cities underground and reduce the surface atmosphere to 0-3psi and run the trains on the surface.
The surface will be uninhabitable in another 100 years anyway so we might as well make it useful for something.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435218</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31452624</id>
	<title>Re:Why not create hydrogen?</title>
	<author>ResidentSourcerer</author>
	<datestamp>1268414100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Working with hydrogen under large pressures is tricky.  Being a small molecule it leaks through lots of alloys, and can cause steel to get brittle.</p><p>That said:  The concept is valid.  What you want is an interuptable way to create methanol.  One that you can turn on and off as power comes and goes.  Methanol is a liquid at normal temp and pressure, and we have an infra-structure for moving liquids around.</p><p>Converting an IC engine to run on methanol should be fairly straight forward.  It's also a suitable fuel for gas turbines.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Working with hydrogen under large pressures is tricky .
Being a small molecule it leaks through lots of alloys , and can cause steel to get brittle.That said : The concept is valid .
What you want is an interuptable way to create methanol .
One that you can turn on and off as power comes and goes .
Methanol is a liquid at normal temp and pressure , and we have an infra-structure for moving liquids around.Converting an IC engine to run on methanol should be fairly straight forward .
It 's also a suitable fuel for gas turbines .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Working with hydrogen under large pressures is tricky.
Being a small molecule it leaks through lots of alloys, and can cause steel to get brittle.That said:  The concept is valid.
What you want is an interuptable way to create methanol.
One that you can turn on and off as power comes and goes.
Methanol is a liquid at normal temp and pressure, and we have an infra-structure for moving liquids around.Converting an IC engine to run on methanol should be fairly straight forward.
It's also a suitable fuel for gas turbines.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31438996</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435274</id>
	<title>Load leveling Vs. Supply leveling</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268339820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem with these energy storage techniques for renewables is every single one of them would be more economical if they were used as load leveling systems (suck extra energy during down times, release in peak hours) rather than supply leveling systems (suck extra energy in high production hours, release it in low production hours).</p><p>The reason for this is day-to-day and monthly power consumption is a very easy thing to predict, so we know very well how much storage we need and if it will or will not be enough. Using these systems we can level the load and allow the greenest power sources (nuclear, followed by hydro) to produce the vast majority of power we need (because they can run at near 100\% 24/7).</p><p>The wind is a very much harder thing to predict. So how much storage is needed? Who knows. What we DO know is that every single wind power station is going to need gas turbine backups for when a) the wind doesn't blow, b) demand is high and c) storage is depleted.</p><p>Using energy storage to allow nuclear and hydro to run most economically is a far better choice than using it to level the output of wind power.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem with these energy storage techniques for renewables is every single one of them would be more economical if they were used as load leveling systems ( suck extra energy during down times , release in peak hours ) rather than supply leveling systems ( suck extra energy in high production hours , release it in low production hours ) .The reason for this is day-to-day and monthly power consumption is a very easy thing to predict , so we know very well how much storage we need and if it will or will not be enough .
Using these systems we can level the load and allow the greenest power sources ( nuclear , followed by hydro ) to produce the vast majority of power we need ( because they can run at near 100 \ % 24/7 ) .The wind is a very much harder thing to predict .
So how much storage is needed ?
Who knows .
What we DO know is that every single wind power station is going to need gas turbine backups for when a ) the wind does n't blow , b ) demand is high and c ) storage is depleted.Using energy storage to allow nuclear and hydro to run most economically is a far better choice than using it to level the output of wind power .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem with these energy storage techniques for renewables is every single one of them would be more economical if they were used as load leveling systems (suck extra energy during down times, release in peak hours) rather than supply leveling systems (suck extra energy in high production hours, release it in low production hours).The reason for this is day-to-day and monthly power consumption is a very easy thing to predict, so we know very well how much storage we need and if it will or will not be enough.
Using these systems we can level the load and allow the greenest power sources (nuclear, followed by hydro) to produce the vast majority of power we need (because they can run at near 100\% 24/7).The wind is a very much harder thing to predict.
So how much storage is needed?
Who knows.
What we DO know is that every single wind power station is going to need gas turbine backups for when a) the wind doesn't blow, b) demand is high and c) storage is depleted.Using energy storage to allow nuclear and hydro to run most economically is a far better choice than using it to level the output of wind power.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435554</id>
	<title>Re:Max Pressure?</title>
	<author>clarkkent09</author>
	<datestamp>1268300220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I would think you pump's maximum psi rating would be the weakest point. Nothing would break, you just couldn't pump in any more air.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I would think you pump 's maximum psi rating would be the weakest point .
Nothing would break , you just could n't pump in any more air .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would think you pump's maximum psi rating would be the weakest point.
Nothing would break, you just couldn't pump in any more air.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435356</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436008</id>
	<title>advantages and disadvantages of compressed air</title>
	<author>FishTankX</author>
	<datestamp>1268307780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sadly, tunnels large enough to carry trains, as modern subways will prove, are prohibitivley expensive.</p><p>however, compressed air is a good energy storage medium.</p><p>Assuming a 900 foot by 300 foot by 300 foot cavern was filled with compressed air with a pressure of 300 bars, would have a potential energy of roughly 50 gigawatt hours. (source: <a href="http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf" title="tinaja.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf</a> [tinaja.com]) Or enough to run the entire united states for about an hour. This is a massive pool of energy, and significantly more cost effective than a battery.</p><p>HOWEVER, there lies a rub. When you compress air, you generate a massive amount of heat as the thermal energy stored in the air is highly compressed. This heat energy, unless properly reclaimed and stored (I.E. In a molten salt bath) just leaks away, stealing a huge chunk of the potential energy with it. When the air is uncompressed, there is significantly less heat energy stored in the air, and thus the expanded gas is very cold. This limits how far it can expand again, and creates a formidable problem in the form of condensation.</p><p>What you need to do to get EFFICENT compressed air storage, is either store the heat in an efficent manner, and add it back to the compressed air. OR you can gradually warm it back up to room temperature through a heat exchanger as it expands.</p><p>All in all, the challenges to attaining decent efficency are considerable.</p><p>What might be an easier way to achieve the same energy storage using similar principles, is to turn that same cavern they created into a giant hydro dam. Basically, create an enclosure of equal size below it. When energy needs to be stored, pump the water up to the higher cavern. When energy needs to be released, release it through hydro turbines into the lower cavern.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sadly , tunnels large enough to carry trains , as modern subways will prove , are prohibitivley expensive.however , compressed air is a good energy storage medium.Assuming a 900 foot by 300 foot by 300 foot cavern was filled with compressed air with a pressure of 300 bars , would have a potential energy of roughly 50 gigawatt hours .
( source : http : //www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf [ tinaja.com ] ) Or enough to run the entire united states for about an hour .
This is a massive pool of energy , and significantly more cost effective than a battery.HOWEVER , there lies a rub .
When you compress air , you generate a massive amount of heat as the thermal energy stored in the air is highly compressed .
This heat energy , unless properly reclaimed and stored ( I.E .
In a molten salt bath ) just leaks away , stealing a huge chunk of the potential energy with it .
When the air is uncompressed , there is significantly less heat energy stored in the air , and thus the expanded gas is very cold .
This limits how far it can expand again , and creates a formidable problem in the form of condensation.What you need to do to get EFFICENT compressed air storage , is either store the heat in an efficent manner , and add it back to the compressed air .
OR you can gradually warm it back up to room temperature through a heat exchanger as it expands.All in all , the challenges to attaining decent efficency are considerable.What might be an easier way to achieve the same energy storage using similar principles , is to turn that same cavern they created into a giant hydro dam .
Basically , create an enclosure of equal size below it .
When energy needs to be stored , pump the water up to the higher cavern .
When energy needs to be released , release it through hydro turbines into the lower cavern .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sadly, tunnels large enough to carry trains, as modern subways will prove, are prohibitivley expensive.however, compressed air is a good energy storage medium.Assuming a 900 foot by 300 foot by 300 foot cavern was filled with compressed air with a pressure of 300 bars, would have a potential energy of roughly 50 gigawatt hours.
(source: http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf [tinaja.com]) Or enough to run the entire united states for about an hour.
This is a massive pool of energy, and significantly more cost effective than a battery.HOWEVER, there lies a rub.
When you compress air, you generate a massive amount of heat as the thermal energy stored in the air is highly compressed.
This heat energy, unless properly reclaimed and stored (I.E.
In a molten salt bath) just leaks away, stealing a huge chunk of the potential energy with it.
When the air is uncompressed, there is significantly less heat energy stored in the air, and thus the expanded gas is very cold.
This limits how far it can expand again, and creates a formidable problem in the form of condensation.What you need to do to get EFFICENT compressed air storage, is either store the heat in an efficent manner, and add it back to the compressed air.
OR you can gradually warm it back up to room temperature through a heat exchanger as it expands.All in all, the challenges to attaining decent efficency are considerable.What might be an easier way to achieve the same energy storage using similar principles, is to turn that same cavern they created into a giant hydro dam.
Basically, create an enclosure of equal size below it.
When energy needs to be stored, pump the water up to the higher cavern.
When energy needs to be released, release it through hydro turbines into the lower cavern.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435218</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435330</id>
	<title>Huh?</title>
	<author>Fishbulb</author>
	<datestamp>1268340480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Pumping stuff into the ground that isn't normally there tends to give me the willies anymore.  "Stick it where the sun don't shine!" isn't such a great solution, IMO.
</p><p>Besides which, why not just build <a href="http://discovermagazine.com/2008/oct/29-the-element-that-could-change-the-world" title="discovermagazine.com">Vanadium batteries</a> [discovermagazine.com] or invest in <a href="http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/4252623.html" title="popularmechanics.com">carbon nanotube</a> [popularmechanics.com] <a href="http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2009/09/carbon-nanotubes-may-power-ultracapacitor-car.ars" title="arstechnica.com">ultra-capacitors</a> [arstechnica.com] (which could have direct benefit to mobile energy storage)?
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Pumping stuff into the ground that is n't normally there tends to give me the willies anymore .
" Stick it where the sun do n't shine !
" is n't such a great solution , IMO .
Besides which , why not just build Vanadium batteries [ discovermagazine.com ] or invest in carbon nanotube [ popularmechanics.com ] ultra-capacitors [ arstechnica.com ] ( which could have direct benefit to mobile energy storage ) ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Pumping stuff into the ground that isn't normally there tends to give me the willies anymore.
"Stick it where the sun don't shine!
" isn't such a great solution, IMO.
Besides which, why not just build Vanadium batteries [discovermagazine.com] or invest in carbon nanotube [popularmechanics.com] ultra-capacitors [arstechnica.com] (which could have direct benefit to mobile energy storage)?
</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436330</id>
	<title>Re: Travelling with using hardly any energy</title>
	<author>kanweg</author>
	<datestamp>1268313120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Even better (but not for generating energy): Make the trains levitate on magnets in the vacuum tube, and make the tube slope down away from the station. You get speed by going down the slope, lose little energy on the way, and at the destination the slope goes up, storing the energy for the next ride.</p><p>Bert<br>PS Don't do this in Chile</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Even better ( but not for generating energy ) : Make the trains levitate on magnets in the vacuum tube , and make the tube slope down away from the station .
You get speed by going down the slope , lose little energy on the way , and at the destination the slope goes up , storing the energy for the next ride.BertPS Do n't do this in Chile</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Even better (but not for generating energy): Make the trains levitate on magnets in the vacuum tube, and make the tube slope down away from the station.
You get speed by going down the slope, lose little energy on the way, and at the destination the slope goes up, storing the energy for the next ride.BertPS Don't do this in Chile</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435218</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31438914</id>
	<title>Re:Generate a Vacuum</title>
	<author>Rhacman</author>
	<datestamp>1268327340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Found some more info regarding this idea <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vactrain" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vactrain</a> [wikipedia.org]</htmltext>
<tokenext>Found some more info regarding this idea http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vactrain [ wikipedia.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Found some more info regarding this idea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vactrain [wikipedia.org]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435218</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435616</id>
	<title>Re:Unwater Bags</title>
	<author>superposed</author>
	<datestamp>1268301180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think the losses in the CAES system are due to the fact that it is a non-adiabatic process (a diabatic process?, i.e. one where heat can be lost from the system). When you compress the air, the temperature rises, and some heat is lost to the surrounding ground. But if the cycles are fast enough, those losses may be reduced -- i.e., you allow the air to re-expand, which cools it, and it sucks heat back from the ground. Since heat moves slowly through the ground, you may be able to get a lot of it back before it goes anywhere. The innovation in the Alabama system was to use waste heat in the turbine's exhaust gases to replace this lost heat as well.</p><p>I think the solution you propose is isobaric (constant pressure) and isothermal (constant temperature), but still not adiabatic. Some of the energy used to compress the air is converted to heat, and that heat would be lost to the ocean instead of raising the temperature of the air.</p><p>A better solution might be to use pre-inflated air bags (or air boxes?) attached to pulleys on the bottom of the ocean. Use a motor to pull the other end of the rope, and you would draw the air bag downward, storing energy. Play out the rope and the rising air bag would turn the motor (now acting as a generator), generating electricity. You could also do this with stones or bags of silt/gravel, just raising and lowering them from the surface.</p><p>The problem is, you would need a lot of air bags or stones to store any significant amount of energy. If the stones or gravel have a density of 2000 kg/m^3 (similar to "Gravel, wet" according to <a href="http://www.simetric.co.uk/si\_materials.htm" title="simetric.co.uk">http://www.simetric.co.uk/si\_materials.htm</a> [simetric.co.uk], higher than "Clay, wet excavated" (1600) but lower than concrete (2400)), then they will have a net weight in water of about 1000 kg/m^3 (i.e., a downward force of about 10000 Newtons per m^3). Air bags would exert a similar force upward. If you can find a near-shore location with a depth of 1 km, you could store 10000 N * 1000 m = 10 MJ of energy per cubic meter of material, which is about 3 kWh/m^3. A 100 MW wind farm (presumably closer to shore) would generate 100,000 kWh of electricity per hour when the wind is blowing, so if you wanted to store 6 hours of energy from this wind farm, you would need to raise and lower about 6 * 100,000 / 3 = 200,000 cubic meters of stone or air (e.g., 200 large chunks, each 10 meters across). I suppose it could be done...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think the losses in the CAES system are due to the fact that it is a non-adiabatic process ( a diabatic process ? , i.e .
one where heat can be lost from the system ) .
When you compress the air , the temperature rises , and some heat is lost to the surrounding ground .
But if the cycles are fast enough , those losses may be reduced -- i.e. , you allow the air to re-expand , which cools it , and it sucks heat back from the ground .
Since heat moves slowly through the ground , you may be able to get a lot of it back before it goes anywhere .
The innovation in the Alabama system was to use waste heat in the turbine 's exhaust gases to replace this lost heat as well.I think the solution you propose is isobaric ( constant pressure ) and isothermal ( constant temperature ) , but still not adiabatic .
Some of the energy used to compress the air is converted to heat , and that heat would be lost to the ocean instead of raising the temperature of the air.A better solution might be to use pre-inflated air bags ( or air boxes ?
) attached to pulleys on the bottom of the ocean .
Use a motor to pull the other end of the rope , and you would draw the air bag downward , storing energy .
Play out the rope and the rising air bag would turn the motor ( now acting as a generator ) , generating electricity .
You could also do this with stones or bags of silt/gravel , just raising and lowering them from the surface.The problem is , you would need a lot of air bags or stones to store any significant amount of energy .
If the stones or gravel have a density of 2000 kg/m ^ 3 ( similar to " Gravel , wet " according to http : //www.simetric.co.uk/si \ _materials.htm [ simetric.co.uk ] , higher than " Clay , wet excavated " ( 1600 ) but lower than concrete ( 2400 ) ) , then they will have a net weight in water of about 1000 kg/m ^ 3 ( i.e. , a downward force of about 10000 Newtons per m ^ 3 ) .
Air bags would exert a similar force upward .
If you can find a near-shore location with a depth of 1 km , you could store 10000 N * 1000 m = 10 MJ of energy per cubic meter of material , which is about 3 kWh/m ^ 3 .
A 100 MW wind farm ( presumably closer to shore ) would generate 100,000 kWh of electricity per hour when the wind is blowing , so if you wanted to store 6 hours of energy from this wind farm , you would need to raise and lower about 6 * 100,000 / 3 = 200,000 cubic meters of stone or air ( e.g. , 200 large chunks , each 10 meters across ) .
I suppose it could be done.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think the losses in the CAES system are due to the fact that it is a non-adiabatic process (a diabatic process?, i.e.
one where heat can be lost from the system).
When you compress the air, the temperature rises, and some heat is lost to the surrounding ground.
But if the cycles are fast enough, those losses may be reduced -- i.e., you allow the air to re-expand, which cools it, and it sucks heat back from the ground.
Since heat moves slowly through the ground, you may be able to get a lot of it back before it goes anywhere.
The innovation in the Alabama system was to use waste heat in the turbine's exhaust gases to replace this lost heat as well.I think the solution you propose is isobaric (constant pressure) and isothermal (constant temperature), but still not adiabatic.
Some of the energy used to compress the air is converted to heat, and that heat would be lost to the ocean instead of raising the temperature of the air.A better solution might be to use pre-inflated air bags (or air boxes?
) attached to pulleys on the bottom of the ocean.
Use a motor to pull the other end of the rope, and you would draw the air bag downward, storing energy.
Play out the rope and the rising air bag would turn the motor (now acting as a generator), generating electricity.
You could also do this with stones or bags of silt/gravel, just raising and lowering them from the surface.The problem is, you would need a lot of air bags or stones to store any significant amount of energy.
If the stones or gravel have a density of 2000 kg/m^3 (similar to "Gravel, wet" according to http://www.simetric.co.uk/si\_materials.htm [simetric.co.uk], higher than "Clay, wet excavated" (1600) but lower than concrete (2400)), then they will have a net weight in water of about 1000 kg/m^3 (i.e., a downward force of about 10000 Newtons per m^3).
Air bags would exert a similar force upward.
If you can find a near-shore location with a depth of 1 km, you could store 10000 N * 1000 m = 10 MJ of energy per cubic meter of material, which is about 3 kWh/m^3.
A 100 MW wind farm (presumably closer to shore) would generate 100,000 kWh of electricity per hour when the wind is blowing, so if you wanted to store 6 hours of energy from this wind farm, you would need to raise and lower about 6 * 100,000 / 3 = 200,000 cubic meters of stone or air (e.g., 200 large chunks, each 10 meters across).
I suppose it could be done...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435228</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436484</id>
	<title>Re:advantages and disadvantages of compressed air</title>
	<author>mprinkey</author>
	<datestamp>1268315640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Um, 50 gigawatt hours is about 1.8 * 10^14 joules.  That is about 43 kilotons of energy.  Now think catastrophic failure.  <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor\_Scale" title="wikipedia.org">Here</a> [wikipedia.org] is an example 1/10 the size.</p><p>All energy storage systems...especially physical storage systems...suffer from the same problem.  In order to store a useful amount of energy, they need to exist on a potentially catastrophic scale.  Pump storage...where is the flood plane.  Compressed air...what is the blast radius, where will the supercooled plume go, will it reach aviation altitudes?  Flywheel storage...reference mythbusters with the CD on a die grinder.  And while not a storage system, even geothermal power plants seem to cause geological instability.</p><p>A few years ago, I did some modelling development for people doing salt mining for compressed air storage.  (IAAMechEngineer.)  At the time, I remember thinking what must the hoop stresses on a 100m cavern look like at a few hundred atmospheres?  And that is rock and dirt and salt holding it together.  Nothing in that system tends to behave elastically.  So pressurizing and depressurizing it has to induce crack growth and eventually some geological instability.  How do you do in-situ inspection of your "pressure vessel"?</p><p>In my mind, some electrochemical process is far safer, even if it uses nasty chemical.  Because you can keep the chemical apart (with 100-ft high berms if need be) until it is time to react them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Um , 50 gigawatt hours is about 1.8 * 10 ^ 14 joules .
That is about 43 kilotons of energy .
Now think catastrophic failure .
Here [ wikipedia.org ] is an example 1/10 the size.All energy storage systems...especially physical storage systems...suffer from the same problem .
In order to store a useful amount of energy , they need to exist on a potentially catastrophic scale .
Pump storage...where is the flood plane .
Compressed air...what is the blast radius , where will the supercooled plume go , will it reach aviation altitudes ?
Flywheel storage...reference mythbusters with the CD on a die grinder .
And while not a storage system , even geothermal power plants seem to cause geological instability.A few years ago , I did some modelling development for people doing salt mining for compressed air storage .
( IAAMechEngineer. ) At the time , I remember thinking what must the hoop stresses on a 100m cavern look like at a few hundred atmospheres ?
And that is rock and dirt and salt holding it together .
Nothing in that system tends to behave elastically .
So pressurizing and depressurizing it has to induce crack growth and eventually some geological instability .
How do you do in-situ inspection of your " pressure vessel " ? In my mind , some electrochemical process is far safer , even if it uses nasty chemical .
Because you can keep the chemical apart ( with 100-ft high berms if need be ) until it is time to react them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Um, 50 gigawatt hours is about 1.8 * 10^14 joules.
That is about 43 kilotons of energy.
Now think catastrophic failure.
Here [wikipedia.org] is an example 1/10 the size.All energy storage systems...especially physical storage systems...suffer from the same problem.
In order to store a useful amount of energy, they need to exist on a potentially catastrophic scale.
Pump storage...where is the flood plane.
Compressed air...what is the blast radius, where will the supercooled plume go, will it reach aviation altitudes?
Flywheel storage...reference mythbusters with the CD on a die grinder.
And while not a storage system, even geothermal power plants seem to cause geological instability.A few years ago, I did some modelling development for people doing salt mining for compressed air storage.
(IAAMechEngineer.)  At the time, I remember thinking what must the hoop stresses on a 100m cavern look like at a few hundred atmospheres?
And that is rock and dirt and salt holding it together.
Nothing in that system tends to behave elastically.
So pressurizing and depressurizing it has to induce crack growth and eventually some geological instability.
How do you do in-situ inspection of your "pressure vessel"?In my mind, some electrochemical process is far safer, even if it uses nasty chemical.
Because you can keep the chemical apart (with 100-ft high berms if need be) until it is time to react them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436008</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31441508</id>
	<title>Re:Generate a Vacuum</title>
	<author>orient</author>
	<datestamp>1268336760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Thanks for the idea, I just submitted the patent application.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Thanks for the idea , I just submitted the patent application .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thanks for the idea, I just submitted the patent application.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435218</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31450010</id>
	<title>Efficiency losses</title>
	<author>LandGator</author>
	<datestamp>1268397180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Windmils ain't free; they need maintenance, and do break in unexpected ways.

The right kinda land ain't free, either; gotta survey, find sealable underground where there's wind, which is not a common combination.
And, the compression/decompression process loses about 80\% of the original power.

However, this is needed; the federal Bonneville Power Administration revealed the surges in wind power nearly fried the NW portion of the Western Grid in 2008 by overload, in a report announced on KGW news last night. And, since <a href="http://www.transmission.bpa.gov/business/operations/Wind/" title="bpa.gov">http://www.transmission.bpa.gov/business/operations/Wind/</a> [bpa.gov] shows wind is reliable  4\% of the time, we have to store it somehow. But, it won't be cheap.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Windmils ai n't free ; they need maintenance , and do break in unexpected ways .
The right kinda land ai n't free , either ; got ta survey , find sealable underground where there 's wind , which is not a common combination .
And , the compression/decompression process loses about 80 \ % of the original power .
However , this is needed ; the federal Bonneville Power Administration revealed the surges in wind power nearly fried the NW portion of the Western Grid in 2008 by overload , in a report announced on KGW news last night .
And , since http : //www.transmission.bpa.gov/business/operations/Wind/ [ bpa.gov ] shows wind is reliable 4 \ % of the time , we have to store it somehow .
But , it wo n't be cheap .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Windmils ain't free; they need maintenance, and do break in unexpected ways.
The right kinda land ain't free, either; gotta survey, find sealable underground where there's wind, which is not a common combination.
And, the compression/decompression process loses about 80\% of the original power.
However, this is needed; the federal Bonneville Power Administration revealed the surges in wind power nearly fried the NW portion of the Western Grid in 2008 by overload, in a report announced on KGW news last night.
And, since http://www.transmission.bpa.gov/business/operations/Wind/ [bpa.gov] shows wind is reliable  4\% of the time, we have to store it somehow.
But, it won't be cheap.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31437790</id>
	<title>Re:Efficiency</title>
	<author>mea37</author>
	<datestamp>1268324400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What do you mean "more efficient than just storing the electricity"?</p><p>I think you mean "more efficient than chemical energy storage", e.g. lithium batteries and similar.  The thing is, chemical batteries are only practical up to a certain volume of energy.  Beyond that it's no longer a question of which is "more efficient"; it's a question of which you can actually do.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What do you mean " more efficient than just storing the electricity " ? I think you mean " more efficient than chemical energy storage " , e.g .
lithium batteries and similar .
The thing is , chemical batteries are only practical up to a certain volume of energy .
Beyond that it 's no longer a question of which is " more efficient " ; it 's a question of which you can actually do .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What do you mean "more efficient than just storing the electricity"?I think you mean "more efficient than chemical energy storage", e.g.
lithium batteries and similar.
The thing is, chemical batteries are only practical up to a certain volume of energy.
Beyond that it's no longer a question of which is "more efficient"; it's a question of which you can actually do.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435248</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31439834</id>
	<title>Re:Been thought off and rejected as to complex</title>
	<author>Golddess</author>
	<datestamp>1268330220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Then the train needs to enter a normal area to let people in and out without explosive decompression.</p></div><p>Not really, just need some sort of tube to connect the train doorways with the terminal, the train itself would never leave the depressurized area.  You don't think the space shuttle enters a fully enclosed area where air is pumped in before the astronauts can disembark onto the space station, do you?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Then the train needs to enter a normal area to let people in and out without explosive decompression.Not really , just need some sort of tube to connect the train doorways with the terminal , the train itself would never leave the depressurized area .
You do n't think the space shuttle enters a fully enclosed area where air is pumped in before the astronauts can disembark onto the space station , do you ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Then the train needs to enter a normal area to let people in and out without explosive decompression.Not really, just need some sort of tube to connect the train doorways with the terminal, the train itself would never leave the depressurized area.
You don't think the space shuttle enters a fully enclosed area where air is pumped in before the astronauts can disembark onto the space station, do you?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435784</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435796</id>
	<title>cost</title>
	<author>Colin Smith</author>
	<datestamp>1268303880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hole in the ground vs 200 tonnes of battery.<br>
&nbsp;</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hole in the ground vs 200 tonnes of battery .
 </tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hole in the ground vs 200 tonnes of battery.
 </sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435248</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436830</id>
	<title>Re:Unwater Bags</title>
	<author>RicktheBrick</author>
	<datestamp>1268318940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I live in Ludington, Michigan.  They built a very large pumped storage plant here over 30 years ago.  They pump water up into a man made lake at night when the demand is lower and reverse the process during the day when the demand is greater.  So we already have a Gigawatt storage device.  I have been to their observatory tower several times and it seem to be very windy there all the time.  Yet after 30 years there is not even one windmill  on the banks of this man made lake.  Morton salts is located just about 30 miles north because there is lots of salt there so we supposedly have that too.  They are trying to build now between 50 to 100 windmills offshore(Lake Michigan) from us but there is a local group that think that it would destroy the scenic value of the lake and scare away all the fish so they are against the idea.  Well for all that this area has going for it,  I would think that someone would want to buy my house for the low price of a quarter of a million dollars.  I am sure that one could tear it down and build another for about the same so for just a half of million dollars one would have a new house in a very important area in the country.  I would than move into an area of the country where they do not have winter 5 months of the year.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I live in Ludington , Michigan .
They built a very large pumped storage plant here over 30 years ago .
They pump water up into a man made lake at night when the demand is lower and reverse the process during the day when the demand is greater .
So we already have a Gigawatt storage device .
I have been to their observatory tower several times and it seem to be very windy there all the time .
Yet after 30 years there is not even one windmill on the banks of this man made lake .
Morton salts is located just about 30 miles north because there is lots of salt there so we supposedly have that too .
They are trying to build now between 50 to 100 windmills offshore ( Lake Michigan ) from us but there is a local group that think that it would destroy the scenic value of the lake and scare away all the fish so they are against the idea .
Well for all that this area has going for it , I would think that someone would want to buy my house for the low price of a quarter of a million dollars .
I am sure that one could tear it down and build another for about the same so for just a half of million dollars one would have a new house in a very important area in the country .
I would than move into an area of the country where they do not have winter 5 months of the year .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I live in Ludington, Michigan.
They built a very large pumped storage plant here over 30 years ago.
They pump water up into a man made lake at night when the demand is lower and reverse the process during the day when the demand is greater.
So we already have a Gigawatt storage device.
I have been to their observatory tower several times and it seem to be very windy there all the time.
Yet after 30 years there is not even one windmill  on the banks of this man made lake.
Morton salts is located just about 30 miles north because there is lots of salt there so we supposedly have that too.
They are trying to build now between 50 to 100 windmills offshore(Lake Michigan) from us but there is a local group that think that it would destroy the scenic value of the lake and scare away all the fish so they are against the idea.
Well for all that this area has going for it,  I would think that someone would want to buy my house for the low price of a quarter of a million dollars.
I am sure that one could tear it down and build another for about the same so for just a half of million dollars one would have a new house in a very important area in the country.
I would than move into an area of the country where they do not have winter 5 months of the year.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435228</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435318</id>
	<title>Re:Generate a Vacuum</title>
	<author>Avin22</author>
	<datestamp>1268340360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>2 birds, 1 very expensive stone. It would probably cost a great deal of money to build tunnels, evacuate out almost all the air, and maintain that low atmosphere. Sure, it might save some energy of running the train, but the money and resources needed to do this would greatly outweigh any benefit. We are almost certainly much better off investing in other ways of producing or saving energy.</htmltext>
<tokenext>2 birds , 1 very expensive stone .
It would probably cost a great deal of money to build tunnels , evacuate out almost all the air , and maintain that low atmosphere .
Sure , it might save some energy of running the train , but the money and resources needed to do this would greatly outweigh any benefit .
We are almost certainly much better off investing in other ways of producing or saving energy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>2 birds, 1 very expensive stone.
It would probably cost a great deal of money to build tunnels, evacuate out almost all the air, and maintain that low atmosphere.
Sure, it might save some energy of running the train, but the money and resources needed to do this would greatly outweigh any benefit.
We are almost certainly much better off investing in other ways of producing or saving energy.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435218</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31441148</id>
	<title>Re:Generate a Vacuum</title>
	<author>itzdandy</author>
	<datestamp>1268335440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>except the gap between cities allow for agriculture and ranching in those areas and *should* reduce fuel expense and time moving produce to population centers.  This breaks down when you buy mexican tomatos in NYC of course.</p><p>The tubes would let us move people and produce very efficiently AFTER the initial build cost is subracted.</p><p>I like the tubes, but thousands of miles of tubes will cost thousands of millions of dollars to build.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>except the gap between cities allow for agriculture and ranching in those areas and * should * reduce fuel expense and time moving produce to population centers .
This breaks down when you buy mexican tomatos in NYC of course.The tubes would let us move people and produce very efficiently AFTER the initial build cost is subracted.I like the tubes , but thousands of miles of tubes will cost thousands of millions of dollars to build .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>except the gap between cities allow for agriculture and ranching in those areas and *should* reduce fuel expense and time moving produce to population centers.
This breaks down when you buy mexican tomatos in NYC of course.The tubes would let us move people and produce very efficiently AFTER the initial build cost is subracted.I like the tubes, but thousands of miles of tubes will cost thousands of millions of dollars to build.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435486</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435248</id>
	<title>Efficiency</title>
	<author>JW CS</author>
	<datestamp>1268339580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>So this is more efficient than just storing the electricity? That must say something about the sad state of current battery technology.</htmltext>
<tokenext>So this is more efficient than just storing the electricity ?
That must say something about the sad state of current battery technology .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So this is more efficient than just storing the electricity?
That must say something about the sad state of current battery technology.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436988</id>
	<title>Re:Compared to pumped hydro</title>
	<author>maxume</author>
	<datestamp>1268320140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The pumped storage power plant in Ludington Michigan is 1.8 Gigawatts, so maybe they are being a bit pessimistic about siting problems:</p><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludington\_Pumped\_Storage\_Power\_Plant" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludington\_Pumped\_Storage\_Power\_Plant</a> [wikipedia.org]<br><a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?&amp;ll=43.889975,-86.41468&amp;spn=0.114557,0.22831&amp;t=h&amp;z=12" title="google.com" rel="nofollow">http://maps.google.com/maps?&amp;ll=43.889975,-86.41468&amp;spn=0.114557,0.22831&amp;t=h&amp;z=12</a> [google.com]</p><p>There is another 0.24 Gigawatts at Niagara:</p><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert\_Moses\_Niagara\_Power\_Plant#Pumped\_storage" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert\_Moses\_Niagara\_Power\_Plant#Pumped\_storage</a> [wikipedia.org]</p><p>I'm not sure I would worry too much about burning a couple of square miles here or there to build another site similar to Ludington; the effects certainly aren't benign, but they are well understood, and the world is a big place.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The pumped storage power plant in Ludington Michigan is 1.8 Gigawatts , so maybe they are being a bit pessimistic about siting problems : http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludington \ _Pumped \ _Storage \ _Power \ _Plant [ wikipedia.org ] http : //maps.google.com/maps ? &amp;ll = 43.889975,-86.41468&amp;spn = 0.114557,0.22831&amp;t = h&amp;z = 12 [ google.com ] There is another 0.24 Gigawatts at Niagara : http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert \ _Moses \ _Niagara \ _Power \ _Plant # Pumped \ _storage [ wikipedia.org ] I 'm not sure I would worry too much about burning a couple of square miles here or there to build another site similar to Ludington ; the effects certainly are n't benign , but they are well understood , and the world is a big place .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The pumped storage power plant in Ludington Michigan is 1.8 Gigawatts, so maybe they are being a bit pessimistic about siting problems:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludington\_Pumped\_Storage\_Power\_Plant [wikipedia.org]http://maps.google.com/maps?&amp;ll=43.889975,-86.41468&amp;spn=0.114557,0.22831&amp;t=h&amp;z=12 [google.com]There is another 0.24 Gigawatts at Niagara:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert\_Moses\_Niagara\_Power\_Plant#Pumped\_storage [wikipedia.org]I'm not sure I would worry too much about burning a couple of square miles here or there to build another site similar to Ludington; the effects certainly aren't benign, but they are well understood, and the world is a big place.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435292</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31441254</id>
	<title>Re:advantages and disadvantages of compressed air</title>
	<author>itzdandy</author>
	<datestamp>1268335740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>do you think that it is more efficient to compress air, then recover that energy or more efficient to store power chemically and recover it later?  better yet, how about low-loss flywheel storage.  What is more efficient compress air/decompress air or spin flywheel via motor, recover by alternator?</p><p>Any chance that we have the technology to create capacitors to handle a 24hour buffering of power without loosing too much while storing it?  I know that this is the typical weakness in CAPS, that they are great for quickly storing and retrieving power and specifically buffering power but they cant store it for long without losses to heat.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>do you think that it is more efficient to compress air , then recover that energy or more efficient to store power chemically and recover it later ?
better yet , how about low-loss flywheel storage .
What is more efficient compress air/decompress air or spin flywheel via motor , recover by alternator ? Any chance that we have the technology to create capacitors to handle a 24hour buffering of power without loosing too much while storing it ?
I know that this is the typical weakness in CAPS , that they are great for quickly storing and retrieving power and specifically buffering power but they cant store it for long without losses to heat .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>do you think that it is more efficient to compress air, then recover that energy or more efficient to store power chemically and recover it later?
better yet, how about low-loss flywheel storage.
What is more efficient compress air/decompress air or spin flywheel via motor, recover by alternator?Any chance that we have the technology to create capacitors to handle a 24hour buffering of power without loosing too much while storing it?
I know that this is the typical weakness in CAPS, that they are great for quickly storing and retrieving power and specifically buffering power but they cant store it for long without losses to heat.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436008</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435342</id>
	<title>Re:Efficiency</title>
	<author>Rei</author>
	<datestamp>1268340660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No.  It's far *less* efficient.  Li-ion batteries have round-trip efficiencies in the 90s (some chemistries in the upper 90s).  Compressed air storage has a round trip efficiency generally under 50\%.  Sometimes significantly.</p><p>There was an interesting article the other day about storing electricity in molten aluminum/alumina -- basically, turning today's electrolysis method of making aluminum into a reversible process.  They claim to already have better than lead-acid prices, but far longer cycle life, as well as li-ion energy density.  Could be interesting, although I haven't seen an efficiency stat.  Also, since it runs hotter than a Zebra cell, I doubt it'd scale down well.  But who knows.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No .
It 's far * less * efficient .
Li-ion batteries have round-trip efficiencies in the 90s ( some chemistries in the upper 90s ) .
Compressed air storage has a round trip efficiency generally under 50 \ % .
Sometimes significantly.There was an interesting article the other day about storing electricity in molten aluminum/alumina -- basically , turning today 's electrolysis method of making aluminum into a reversible process .
They claim to already have better than lead-acid prices , but far longer cycle life , as well as li-ion energy density .
Could be interesting , although I have n't seen an efficiency stat .
Also , since it runs hotter than a Zebra cell , I doubt it 'd scale down well .
But who knows .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No.
It's far *less* efficient.
Li-ion batteries have round-trip efficiencies in the 90s (some chemistries in the upper 90s).
Compressed air storage has a round trip efficiency generally under 50\%.
Sometimes significantly.There was an interesting article the other day about storing electricity in molten aluminum/alumina -- basically, turning today's electrolysis method of making aluminum into a reversible process.
They claim to already have better than lead-acid prices, but far longer cycle life, as well as li-ion energy density.
Could be interesting, although I haven't seen an efficiency stat.
Also, since it runs hotter than a Zebra cell, I doubt it'd scale down well.
But who knows.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435248</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436610</id>
	<title>Re:Unwater Bags</title>
	<author>mprinkey</author>
	<datestamp>1268317020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Um, how do you intend to keep bags of air at any depth underwater?  Even when highly compressed, the density ratio is going to cause buoyancy, requiring some anchoring mechanism and a bag that is structurally sound enough to handle the stresses.  I don't think that you can compress air enough to get it to match the density of liquid water at any depth...the nitrogen will start to liquefy first...and that brings a whole different set of problems.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Um , how do you intend to keep bags of air at any depth underwater ?
Even when highly compressed , the density ratio is going to cause buoyancy , requiring some anchoring mechanism and a bag that is structurally sound enough to handle the stresses .
I do n't think that you can compress air enough to get it to match the density of liquid water at any depth...the nitrogen will start to liquefy first...and that brings a whole different set of problems .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Um, how do you intend to keep bags of air at any depth underwater?
Even when highly compressed, the density ratio is going to cause buoyancy, requiring some anchoring mechanism and a bag that is structurally sound enough to handle the stresses.
I don't think that you can compress air enough to get it to match the density of liquid water at any depth...the nitrogen will start to liquefy first...and that brings a whole different set of problems.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435228</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435614</id>
	<title>compressors are the weak link</title>
	<author>nido</author>
	<datestamp>1268301180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I mean, the weak link would definitely be the seal (one would think).</p> </div><p>I, for one, think that the weak link would be the compressors. Most gas pumps just aren't especially efficient. If only someone would invent a pump that's better than <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas\_compressor#Types\_of\_compressors" title="wikipedia.org">current designs</a> [wikipedia.org], the world's energy problems could be quickly solved.</p><p>Here's what the N.Y. Times article said:</p><blockquote><div><p>The McIntosh plant uses an electric motor and a compressor to pressurize an underground chamber of 19 million cubic feet -- 220 feet in diameter and 1,000 feet tall -- to 1,100 pounds per square inch. The pressure may sound high, but it is only about one-fifth of what the chamber could withstand.</p></div></blockquote><p>The chamber in Alabama could hold 5,500 psi, but the pump is only capable of 1,100 psi. Design a better pump, and the cavern could store significantly more air.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I mean , the weak link would definitely be the seal ( one would think ) .
I , for one , think that the weak link would be the compressors .
Most gas pumps just are n't especially efficient .
If only someone would invent a pump that 's better than current designs [ wikipedia.org ] , the world 's energy problems could be quickly solved.Here 's what the N.Y. Times article said : The McIntosh plant uses an electric motor and a compressor to pressurize an underground chamber of 19 million cubic feet -- 220 feet in diameter and 1,000 feet tall -- to 1,100 pounds per square inch .
The pressure may sound high , but it is only about one-fifth of what the chamber could withstand.The chamber in Alabama could hold 5,500 psi , but the pump is only capable of 1,100 psi .
Design a better pump , and the cavern could store significantly more air .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I mean, the weak link would definitely be the seal (one would think).
I, for one, think that the weak link would be the compressors.
Most gas pumps just aren't especially efficient.
If only someone would invent a pump that's better than current designs [wikipedia.org], the world's energy problems could be quickly solved.Here's what the N.Y. Times article said:The McIntosh plant uses an electric motor and a compressor to pressurize an underground chamber of 19 million cubic feet -- 220 feet in diameter and 1,000 feet tall -- to 1,100 pounds per square inch.
The pressure may sound high, but it is only about one-fifth of what the chamber could withstand.The chamber in Alabama could hold 5,500 psi, but the pump is only capable of 1,100 psi.
Design a better pump, and the cavern could store significantly more air.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435356</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436432</id>
	<title>Re:Unwater Bags</title>
	<author>DemoLiter3</author>
	<datestamp>1268314920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; The innovation in the Alabama system was to use waste heat in the turbine's exhaust gases<br>How is this innovation? It's been used in the Huntorf CAES since 70's.<br>Basically, it's a natural gas powered plant, which gets its oxygen in form of compressed air, which saves a lot of energy that would be needed to compress the air at the gas turbine intake. It also uses the exhaust heat to pre-heat the air.</p><p>Still, the losses are quite massive: 1 kWh of recovered electricity is produced from 0.8 kWh stored electricity and 1.6kWh gas. 1.6 kWh is the thermal value, not electric. In a normal gas power station you can generate around 0.8kWh el from it (50\% efficiency gas turbine), so basically the 0.8 kWh that was stored in the CAES contributes only 0.2kWh to the output, you recover only 25\%.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; The innovation in the Alabama system was to use waste heat in the turbine 's exhaust gasesHow is this innovation ?
It 's been used in the Huntorf CAES since 70 's.Basically , it 's a natural gas powered plant , which gets its oxygen in form of compressed air , which saves a lot of energy that would be needed to compress the air at the gas turbine intake .
It also uses the exhaust heat to pre-heat the air.Still , the losses are quite massive : 1 kWh of recovered electricity is produced from 0.8 kWh stored electricity and 1.6kWh gas .
1.6 kWh is the thermal value , not electric .
In a normal gas power station you can generate around 0.8kWh el from it ( 50 \ % efficiency gas turbine ) , so basically the 0.8 kWh that was stored in the CAES contributes only 0.2kWh to the output , you recover only 25 \ % .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; The innovation in the Alabama system was to use waste heat in the turbine's exhaust gasesHow is this innovation?
It's been used in the Huntorf CAES since 70's.Basically, it's a natural gas powered plant, which gets its oxygen in form of compressed air, which saves a lot of energy that would be needed to compress the air at the gas turbine intake.
It also uses the exhaust heat to pre-heat the air.Still, the losses are quite massive: 1 kWh of recovered electricity is produced from 0.8 kWh stored electricity and 1.6kWh gas.
1.6 kWh is the thermal value, not electric.
In a normal gas power station you can generate around 0.8kWh el from it (50\% efficiency gas turbine), so basically the 0.8 kWh that was stored in the CAES contributes only 0.2kWh to the output, you recover only 25\%.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435616</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435228</id>
	<title>Unwater Bags</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268339280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>Another solution for the large scale storage of electricity is the inflation of airtight bags deep under water. Since water is so heavy, it exerts a lot of pressure against the air, leading to a cheap method of energy storage. The problem with all compressed-air systems is that have losses due to the non-isothermal nature of the process. That means some energy is lost as heat during compression, and you don't gain it all back thanks to Carnot. The energy density by volume is quite low, unfortunately, but in this application, that's basically irrelevant.<br> <br>


For the curious, the energy density of compressed gas, is 100*P*ln(P/A) kJ/m^3, where P is the maximum pressure and A is the ambient pressure. That m^3 term is in the volume when compressed.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Another solution for the large scale storage of electricity is the inflation of airtight bags deep under water .
Since water is so heavy , it exerts a lot of pressure against the air , leading to a cheap method of energy storage .
The problem with all compressed-air systems is that have losses due to the non-isothermal nature of the process .
That means some energy is lost as heat during compression , and you do n't gain it all back thanks to Carnot .
The energy density by volume is quite low , unfortunately , but in this application , that 's basically irrelevant .
For the curious , the energy density of compressed gas , is 100 * P * ln ( P/A ) kJ/m ^ 3 , where P is the maximum pressure and A is the ambient pressure .
That m ^ 3 term is in the volume when compressed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Another solution for the large scale storage of electricity is the inflation of airtight bags deep under water.
Since water is so heavy, it exerts a lot of pressure against the air, leading to a cheap method of energy storage.
The problem with all compressed-air systems is that have losses due to the non-isothermal nature of the process.
That means some energy is lost as heat during compression, and you don't gain it all back thanks to Carnot.
The energy density by volume is quite low, unfortunately, but in this application, that's basically irrelevant.
For the curious, the energy density of compressed gas, is 100*P*ln(P/A) kJ/m^3, where P is the maximum pressure and A is the ambient pressure.
That m^3 term is in the volume when compressed.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435760</id>
	<title>Re:Load leveling Vs. Supply leveling</title>
	<author>Darkman, Walkin Dude</author>
	<datestamp>1268303280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The wind is a very much harder thing to predict. So how much storage is needed? Who knows. What we DO know is that every single wind power station is going to need gas turbine backups for when a) the wind doesn't blow, b) demand is high and c) storage is depleted.</p></div><p> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European\_super\_grid" title="wikipedia.org">Many studies</a> [wikipedia.org] have been done on this subject. You appear to be a bit confused as to the purpose of load levelling systems in proposed green energy schemes.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The wind is a very much harder thing to predict .
So how much storage is needed ?
Who knows .
What we DO know is that every single wind power station is going to need gas turbine backups for when a ) the wind does n't blow , b ) demand is high and c ) storage is depleted .
Many studies [ wikipedia.org ] have been done on this subject .
You appear to be a bit confused as to the purpose of load levelling systems in proposed green energy schemes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The wind is a very much harder thing to predict.
So how much storage is needed?
Who knows.
What we DO know is that every single wind power station is going to need gas turbine backups for when a) the wind doesn't blow, b) demand is high and c) storage is depleted.
Many studies [wikipedia.org] have been done on this subject.
You appear to be a bit confused as to the purpose of load levelling systems in proposed green energy schemes.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435274</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31465616</id>
	<title>Re:Generate a Vacuum</title>
	<author>MobyDisk</author>
	<datestamp>1268510880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hardly.  Cities are very heavy.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hardly .
Cities are very heavy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hardly.
Cities are very heavy.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435486</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31439816</id>
	<title>Some Inside Info</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268330160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>While I was in my hometown of Waxahachie, TX over Christmas I found out that one of the companies using this technology was looking into buying the old tunnels used for the Super-Collider that was being built there. Some of them had been filled in, but there was a considerable amount of space available for it.  However, Unlike the tech mentioned here, instead of using wind power to pump the air out, they would actually buy power strait from the grid during the night, when power is cheap, and then selling the stored power during peak hours.  Eventually they would suppliment the grid power with solar to increase the profit margin.  It has noting to do with clean energy though, and everything to do with making money.  I never heard if the deal ever went through or not.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>While I was in my hometown of Waxahachie , TX over Christmas I found out that one of the companies using this technology was looking into buying the old tunnels used for the Super-Collider that was being built there .
Some of them had been filled in , but there was a considerable amount of space available for it .
However , Unlike the tech mentioned here , instead of using wind power to pump the air out , they would actually buy power strait from the grid during the night , when power is cheap , and then selling the stored power during peak hours .
Eventually they would suppliment the grid power with solar to increase the profit margin .
It has noting to do with clean energy though , and everything to do with making money .
I never heard if the deal ever went through or not .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While I was in my hometown of Waxahachie, TX over Christmas I found out that one of the companies using this technology was looking into buying the old tunnels used for the Super-Collider that was being built there.
Some of them had been filled in, but there was a considerable amount of space available for it.
However, Unlike the tech mentioned here, instead of using wind power to pump the air out, they would actually buy power strait from the grid during the night, when power is cheap, and then selling the stored power during peak hours.
Eventually they would suppliment the grid power with solar to increase the profit margin.
It has noting to do with clean energy though, and everything to do with making money.
I never heard if the deal ever went through or not.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31450300</id>
	<title>Re:Efficiency</title>
	<author>jonadab</author>
	<datestamp>1268400600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>&gt; basically, turning today's electrolysis method of making aluminum<br>&gt; into a reversible process. They claim to already have better than<br>&gt; lead-acid prices, but far longer cycle life, as well as li-ion energy density.<br><br>A battery that can only operate at temperatures over 3700 degrees?  Gosh, that sounds practical.</htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; basically , turning today 's electrolysis method of making aluminum &gt; into a reversible process .
They claim to already have better than &gt; lead-acid prices , but far longer cycle life , as well as li-ion energy density.A battery that can only operate at temperatures over 3700 degrees ?
Gosh , that sounds practical .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; basically, turning today's electrolysis method of making aluminum&gt; into a reversible process.
They claim to already have better than&gt; lead-acid prices, but far longer cycle life, as well as li-ion energy density.A battery that can only operate at temperatures over 3700 degrees?
Gosh, that sounds practical.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435342</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436148</id>
	<title>Re:Generate a Vacuum</title>
	<author>nagnamer</author>
	<datestamp>1268310180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>2 birds, 1 very expensive stone. It would probably cost a great deal of money to build tunnels, evacuate out almost all the air, and maintain that low atmosphere. Sure, it might save some energy of running the train, but the money and resources needed to do this would greatly outweigh any benefit. We are almost certainly much better off investing in other ways of producing or saving energy.</p></div><p>And build trains that can run in such conditions with a bunch of safety concerns akin to those you have when you're building an aircraft. But, I think it's a great idea, still.</p><p>Oil and coal are cheap. But they also create problems. I think a good solution deserves to have money thrown at it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>2 birds , 1 very expensive stone .
It would probably cost a great deal of money to build tunnels , evacuate out almost all the air , and maintain that low atmosphere .
Sure , it might save some energy of running the train , but the money and resources needed to do this would greatly outweigh any benefit .
We are almost certainly much better off investing in other ways of producing or saving energy.And build trains that can run in such conditions with a bunch of safety concerns akin to those you have when you 're building an aircraft .
But , I think it 's a great idea , still.Oil and coal are cheap .
But they also create problems .
I think a good solution deserves to have money thrown at it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>2 birds, 1 very expensive stone.
It would probably cost a great deal of money to build tunnels, evacuate out almost all the air, and maintain that low atmosphere.
Sure, it might save some energy of running the train, but the money and resources needed to do this would greatly outweigh any benefit.
We are almost certainly much better off investing in other ways of producing or saving energy.And build trains that can run in such conditions with a bunch of safety concerns akin to those you have when you're building an aircraft.
But, I think it's a great idea, still.Oil and coal are cheap.
But they also create problems.
I think a good solution deserves to have money thrown at it.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435318</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435218</id>
	<title>Generate a Vacuum</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268339100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Instead, build long tunnels between major cities, evacuate them down to between 0 and 3 psi, and run high speed trains through them.  The trains would need very little energy to run thru the extremely thin atmosphere, and the pressure diffential can be used to generate electricity when needed.  2 birds, 1 stone.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Instead , build long tunnels between major cities , evacuate them down to between 0 and 3 psi , and run high speed trains through them .
The trains would need very little energy to run thru the extremely thin atmosphere , and the pressure diffential can be used to generate electricity when needed .
2 birds , 1 stone .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Instead, build long tunnels between major cities, evacuate them down to between 0 and 3 psi, and run high speed trains through them.
The trains would need very little energy to run thru the extremely thin atmosphere, and the pressure diffential can be used to generate electricity when needed.
2 birds, 1 stone.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435358</id>
	<title>Re:Load leveling Vs. Supply leveling</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268340900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hydro isn't always an option, and even though nuclear would go a long way to solving these problems, it also has limitations. For one, nuclear plants need coolant, which is generally a lake or river (again, geographically specific). For another, the FUD about nuclear energy isn't going away, so a lot of suitable areas won't be considered. Now, I'm not saying wind isn't similarly limited; but I am saying that wind power may work in places where neither hydro or nuclear will (dry, arid climates leap to mind). For the places where all three are an option (or similar energy storage techniques, such as alternately pumping/draining water between two adjacent bodies of water), all the better. </p><p>Honestly, why is it that people think JUST solar or JUST hydro or JUST $hyped\_fuel\_source is the answer? Unless we develop cold fusion at some point soon, our power will probably be taken from whichever the easiest source is at any given location, and we'll have a cornucopia of power stations - and maybe even distributed power generation (solar panels on peoples' roofs)!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hydro is n't always an option , and even though nuclear would go a long way to solving these problems , it also has limitations .
For one , nuclear plants need coolant , which is generally a lake or river ( again , geographically specific ) .
For another , the FUD about nuclear energy is n't going away , so a lot of suitable areas wo n't be considered .
Now , I 'm not saying wind is n't similarly limited ; but I am saying that wind power may work in places where neither hydro or nuclear will ( dry , arid climates leap to mind ) .
For the places where all three are an option ( or similar energy storage techniques , such as alternately pumping/draining water between two adjacent bodies of water ) , all the better .
Honestly , why is it that people think JUST solar or JUST hydro or JUST $ hyped \ _fuel \ _source is the answer ?
Unless we develop cold fusion at some point soon , our power will probably be taken from whichever the easiest source is at any given location , and we 'll have a cornucopia of power stations - and maybe even distributed power generation ( solar panels on peoples ' roofs ) !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hydro isn't always an option, and even though nuclear would go a long way to solving these problems, it also has limitations.
For one, nuclear plants need coolant, which is generally a lake or river (again, geographically specific).
For another, the FUD about nuclear energy isn't going away, so a lot of suitable areas won't be considered.
Now, I'm not saying wind isn't similarly limited; but I am saying that wind power may work in places where neither hydro or nuclear will (dry, arid climates leap to mind).
For the places where all three are an option (or similar energy storage techniques, such as alternately pumping/draining water between two adjacent bodies of water), all the better.
Honestly, why is it that people think JUST solar or JUST hydro or JUST $hyped\_fuel\_source is the answer?
Unless we develop cold fusion at some point soon, our power will probably be taken from whichever the easiest source is at any given location, and we'll have a cornucopia of power stations - and maybe even distributed power generation (solar panels on peoples' roofs)!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435274</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31438738</id>
	<title>Re:Generate a Vacuum</title>
	<author>Hal\_Porter</author>
	<datestamp>1268326800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Naah, if they get out and suffocate we'll render them into Soylent Green to feed the overpopulated cities. ++birds one stone.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Naah , if they get out and suffocate we 'll render them into Soylent Green to feed the overpopulated cities .
+ + birds one stone .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Naah, if they get out and suffocate we'll render them into Soylent Green to feed the overpopulated cities.
++birds one stone.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435476</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31442024</id>
	<title>Re:Generate a Vacuum</title>
	<author>jtrask</author>
	<datestamp>1268338740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>[citation needed]

Not that I doubt it, but uh -- just how "greatly" would the money and resources outweigh the energy savings (and the original purpose of storing energy, since the savings for the train was supposed to be a secondary bonus)</htmltext>
<tokenext>[ citation needed ] Not that I doubt it , but uh -- just how " greatly " would the money and resources outweigh the energy savings ( and the original purpose of storing energy , since the savings for the train was supposed to be a secondary bonus )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>[citation needed]

Not that I doubt it, but uh -- just how "greatly" would the money and resources outweigh the energy savings (and the original purpose of storing energy, since the savings for the train was supposed to be a secondary bonus)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435318</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31447220</id>
	<title>matt Simmons ocean energy has an answer</title>
	<author>cheekyboy</author>
	<datestamp>1268315040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is real <a href="http://www.oceanenergy.org/" title="oceanenergy.org">http://www.oceanenergy.org/</a> [oceanenergy.org]<br>This is running.<br>This is possibly the future.</p><p>use wind power to make power, and to convert sea water to fresh water and make fuel from water, to make amonia.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is real http : //www.oceanenergy.org/ [ oceanenergy.org ] This is running.This is possibly the future.use wind power to make power , and to convert sea water to fresh water and make fuel from water , to make amonia .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is real http://www.oceanenergy.org/ [oceanenergy.org]This is running.This is possibly the future.use wind power to make power, and to convert sea water to fresh water and make fuel from water, to make amonia.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435274</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31448284</id>
	<title>Re:Unwater Bags</title>
	<author>pipingguy</author>
	<datestamp>1268324220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I don't understand how nitrogen is going to liquefy.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't understand how nitrogen is going to liquefy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't understand how nitrogen is going to liquefy.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436610</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435220</id>
	<title>circus</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268339160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It has come to my attention that the entire Linux community is a hotbed of so called 'alternative sexuality', which includes anything from hedonistic orgies to homosexuality to paedophilia.</p><p>What better way of demonstrating this than by looking at the hidden messages contained within the names of some of Linux's most outspoken advocates:</p><ul><li> <a href="http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/" title="microsoft.com" rel="nofollow">Linus Torvalds</a> [microsoft.com] is an anagram of <b>slit anus or VD 'L,'</b> clearly referring to himself by the first initial.</li><li> <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20060212034956/http://www.geocities.com/stallmanus/" title="archive.org" rel="nofollow">Richard M. Stallman</a> [archive.org], spokespervert for the <b>G</b>aysex's <b>N</b>ot <b>U</b>nusual 'movement' is an anagram of <b>mans cram thrill ad.</b> </li><li> <a href="http://www.microsoft.com/" title="microsoft.com" rel="nofollow">Alan Cox</a> [microsoft.com] is <i>barely</i> an anagram of <b>anal cox</b> which is just so filthy and unchristian it unnerves me.</li></ul><p>I'm sure that Eric S. Raymond, composer of the satanic <a href="http://goatse.fr/" title="goatse.fr" rel="nofollow">homosexual</a> [goatse.fr] propaganda diatribe <i>The Cathedral and the Bizarre,</i> is probably an anagram of something queer, but we don't need to look that far as we know he's always shoving a gun up some poor little boy's rectum. <i>Update:</i> Eric S. Raymond is actually an anagram for <b>secondary rim</b> and <b>cord in my arse.</b> It just goes to show you that he is indeed queer.</p><p> <i>Update the Second:</i> It is also documented that Evil Sicko Gaymond is responsible for a nauseating piece of code called <a href="http://www.microsoft.com/exchange/" title="microsoft.com" rel="nofollow">Fetchmail</a> [microsoft.com], which is obviously sinister sodomite slang for 'Felch Male' -- a disgusting practise. For those not in the know, 'felching' is the act performed by two perverts wherein one sucks their own post-coital ejaculate out of the other's rectum. In fact, it appears that the dirty Linux faggots set out to undermine the good Republican institution of e-mail, turning it into 'e-male.'</p><p>As far as Richard 'Master' Stallman goes, that filthy fudge-packer was <a href="http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/05/26/free\_love/index.html" title="salon.com" rel="nofollow">actually quoted</a> [salon.com] on leftist commie propaganda site Salon.com as saying the following: 'I've been resistant to the pressure to conform in any circumstance,' he says. 'It's about being able to question conventional wisdom,' he asserts. 'I believe in love, but not monogamy,' he says plainly.</p><p>And this isn't a made up troll bullshit either! He actually stated this tripe, which makes it obvious that he is trying to politely say that he's a flaming <a href="http://www.comp-u-geek.net/" title="comp-u-geek.net" rel="nofollow">homo</a> [comp-u-geek.net] <a href="http://vagina.rotten.com/fecaljapan/" title="rotten.com" rel="nofollow">slut</a> [rotten.com]!</p><p>Speaking about 'flaming,' who better to point out as a filthy chutney ferret than Slashdot's very own self-confessed pederast Jon Katz. Although an obvious deviant anagram cannot be found from his name, he has already confessed, nay boasted of the <a href="http://goatse.fr/" title="goatse.fr" rel="nofollow">homosexual</a> [goatse.fr] perversion of <a href="http://slashdot.org/features/99/07/22/173256.shtml" title="slashdot.org" rel="nofollow">corrupting the innocence of young children</a> [slashdot.org]. To quote from the article linked:</p><p>'I've got a rare kidney disease,' I told her. 'I have to go to the bathroom a lot. You can come with me if you want, but it takes a while. Is that okay with you? Do you want a note from my doctor?'</p><p>Is this why you were touching your <a href="http://smoke.rotten.com/bird/" title="rotten.com" rel="nofollow">penis</a> [rotten.com] in the cinema, Jon? And letting the other boys touch it too?</p><p>We should also point out that Jon Katz refers to himself as 'Slashdot's resident Gasbag.' <i>Is there any more doubt?</i> For those fortunate few who aren't aware of the list of <a href="http://goatse.fr/" title="goatse.fr" rel="nofollow">homosexual</a> [goatse.fr] terminology found inside the Linux 'Sauce Code,' a 'Gasbag' is a pervert who gains sexual gratification from having a thin straw inserted into his urethra (or to use the common parlance, 'piss-pipe'), then his <a href="http://goatse.fr/" title="goatse.fr" rel="nofollow">homosexual</a> [goatse.fr] lover blows firmly down the straw to inflate his scrotum. This is, of course, when he's not busy violating the dignity and copyright of posters to Slashdot by gathering together their postings and publishing them en masse to further his twisted and manipulative journalistic agenda.</p><p>Sick, disgusting antichristian perverts, the lot of them.</p><p>In addition, many of the Linux distributions (a 'distribution' is the most common way to spread the faggots' wares) are run by faggot groups. The <a href="http://www.redhat.com/" title="redhat.com" rel="nofollow">Slackware</a> [redhat.com] distro is named after the 'Slack-wear' fags wear to allow easy access to the anus for sexual purposes. Furthermore, Slackware is a close anagram of <b>claw arse</b>, a reference to the <a href="http://goatse.fr/" title="goatse.fr" rel="nofollow">homosexual</a> [goatse.fr] practise of anal fisting. The <a href="http://www.slackware.com/" title="slackware.com" rel="nofollow">Mandrake</a> [slackware.com] product is run by a group of French faggot satanists, and is named after the faggot nickname for the vibrator. It was also chosen because it is an anagram for <b>dark amen</b> and <b>ram naked,</b> which is what they do.</p><p>Another 'distro,' (abbrieviated as such because it sounds a bit like 'Disco,' which is where <a href="http://goatse.fr/" title="goatse.fr" rel="nofollow">homosexuals</a> [goatse.fr] preyed on young boys in the 1970s), is <a href="http://www.mandrake.com/" title="mandrake.com" rel="nofollow">Debian,</a> [mandrake.com] an anagram of <b>in a bed,</b> which could be considered innocent enough (after all, a bed is both where we sleep and pray), until we realise what other names Debian uses to describe their foul wares. 'Woody' is obvious enough, being a term for the erect male <a href="http://smoke.rotten.com/bird/" title="rotten.com" rel="nofollow">penis</a> [rotten.com], glistening with pre-cum. But far sicker is the phrase 'Frozen Potato' that they use. This filthy term, again found in the secret <a href="http://goatse.fr/" title="goatse.fr" rel="nofollow">homosexual</a> [goatse.fr] 'Sauce Code,' refers to the solo <a href="http://goatse.fr/" title="goatse.fr" rel="nofollow">homosexual</a> [goatse.fr] practice of defecating into a clear polythene bag, shaping the turd into a crude approximation of the male phallus, then leaving it in the freezer overnight until it becomes solid. The practitioner then proceeds to push the frozen 'potato' up his own rectum, squeezing it in and out until his tight young balls erupt in a screaming orgasm.</p><p>And <a href="http://www.debian.org/" title="debian.org" rel="nofollow">Red Hat</a> [debian.org] is secret <a href="http://www.comp-u-geek.net/" title="comp-u-geek.net" rel="nofollow">homo</a> [comp-u-geek.net] slang for the tip of a <a href="http://smoke.rotten.com/bird/" title="rotten.com" rel="nofollow">penis</a> [rotten.com] that is soaked in blood from a freshly violated underage ringpiece.</p><p>The fags have even invented special tools to aid their faggotry! For example, the 'supermount' tool was devised to allow deeper penetration, which is good for fags because it gives more pressure on the prostate gland. 'Automount' is used, on the other hand, because Linux users are all fat and gay, and need to <a href="http://www.comp-u-geek.net/" title="comp-u-geek.net" rel="nofollow">mount each other</a> [comp-u-geek.net] automatically.</p><p>The depths of their depravity can be seen in their use of 'mount points.' These are, plainly speaking, the different points of penetration. The main one is obviously<tt>/anus</tt>, but there are others. Militant fags even say 'there is no<tt>/opt</tt> mount point' because for these dirty perverts faggotry is not optional but a way of life.</p><p>More evidence is in the fact that Linux users say how much they love <tt>`man`</tt>, even going so far as to say that all new Linux users (who are in fact just innocent heterosexuals indoctrinated by the gay propaganda) should try out <tt>`man`</tt>. In no other system do users boast of their frequent recourse to a man.</p><p>Other areas of the system also show Linux's inherent <i>gayness</i>. For example, people are often told of the 'FAQ,' but how many innocent heterosexual <a href="http://www.amiga.com/" title="amiga.com" rel="nofollow">Windows</a> [amiga.com] users know what this actually means. The answer is shocking: <i>Faggot Anal Quest:</i> the voyage of discovery for newly converted fags!</p><p>Even the title '<a href="http://www.geekizoid.com/" title="geekizoid.com" rel="nofollow">Slashdot</a> [geekizoid.com]' originally referred to a <a href="http://goatse.fr/" title="goatse.fr" rel="nofollow">homosexual</a> [goatse.fr] practice. <a href="http://www.kuro5hin.org/" title="kuro5hin.org" rel="nofollow">Slashdot</a> [kuro5hin.org] of course refers to the popular gay practice of blood-letting. The Slashbots, of course are those super-zealous <a href="http://goatse.fr/" title="goatse.fr" rel="nofollow">homosexuals</a> [goatse.fr] who take this perversion to its extreme by ripping open their anuses, as seen on the site most popular with Slashdot users, the depraved work of Satan, <a href="http://www.eff.org/" title="eff.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.eff.org/</a> [eff.org].</p><p>The editors of <a href="http://www.slashduh.org/" title="slashduh.org" rel="nofollow">Slashdot</a> [slashduh.org] also have <a href="http://goatse.fr/" title="goatse.fr" rel="nofollow">homosexual</a> [goatse.fr] names: 'Hemos' is obvious in itself, being one vowel away from 'Homos.' But even more sickening is 'Commander Taco' which sounds a bit like 'Commode in Taco,' filthy gay slang for a pair of spreadeagled buttocks that are caked with <a href="http://pboy.com/shteatrfrk/images01/" title="pboy.com" rel="nofollow">excrement</a> [pboy.com]. (The best form of lubrication, they insist.) Sometimes, these 'Taco Commodes' have special 'Salsa Sauce' (blood from a ruptured rectum) and 'Cheese' (rancid flakes of <a href="http://smoke.rotten.com/bird/" title="rotten.com" rel="nofollow">penis</a> [rotten.com] discharge) toppings. And to make it even worse, <a href="http://notslashdot.org/" title="notslashdot.org" rel="nofollow">Slashdot</a> [notslashdot.org] runs on <i>Apache!</i> </p><p>The <a href="http://www.microsoft.com/iis/" title="microsoft.com" rel="nofollow">Apache</a> [microsoft.com] server, whose use among fags is as prevalent as AIDS, is named after <a href="http://goatse.fr/" title="goatse.fr" rel="nofollow">homosexual</a> [goatse.fr] activity -- as everyone knows, popular faggot band, the Village People, featured an Apache Indian, and it is for him that this gay program is named.</p><p>And that's not forgetting the use of patches in the Linux fag world -- patches are used to make the anus accessible for repeated anal sex even after its rupture by a session of fisting.</p><p>To summarise: Linux is gay. 'Slash -- Dot' is the graphical description of the space between a young boy's scrotum and anus. And <a href="http://www.apple.com/macosx/" title="apple.com" rel="nofollow">BeOS</a> [apple.com] is for hermaphrodites and disabled 'stumpers.'</p><p> <b>FEEDBACK</b> </p><blockquote><div><p> <i>What worries me is how much you know about what gay people do. I'm scared I actually read this whole thing. I think this post is a good example of the negative effects of Internet usage on people. This person obviously has no social life anymore and had to result to writing something as stupid as this. And actually take the time to do it too. Although... I think it was satire.. blah.. it's early.</i> -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot</p></div></blockquote><p>Well, the only reason I know all about this is because I had the misfortune to read the Linux 'Sauce code' once. Although publicised as the computer code needed to get Linux up and running on a computer (and haven't you always been worried about the phrase 'Monolithic Kernel'?), this foul document is actually a detailed and graphic description of every conceivable degrading perversion known to the human race, as well as a few of the major animal species. It has shocked and disturbed me, to the point of needing to shock and disturb the common man to <i>warn</i> them of the impending <a href="http://www.comp-u-geek.net/" title="comp-u-geek.net" rel="nofollow">homo</a> [comp-u-geek.net]-calypse which threatens to engulf our planet.</p><blockquote><div><p> <i>You must work for the government. Trying to post the most obscene stuff in hopes that slashdot won't be able to continue or something, due to legal woes. If i ever see your ugly face, i'm going to stick my fireplace poker up your ass, after it's nice and hot, to weld shut that nasty gaping hole of yours.</i> -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot</p></div></blockquote><p>Doesn't it give you a hard-on to imagine your thick strong poker ramming it's way up my most sacred of sphincters? You're beyond help, my friend, as the only thing you can imagine is the foul penetrative violation of another man. Are you sure you're not Eric Raymond? The government, being populated by limp-wristed liberals, could never stem the sickening tide of <a href="http://goatse.fr/" title="goatse.fr" rel="nofollow">homosexual</a> [goatse.fr] child molesting Linux advocacy. Hell, they've given NAMBLA free reign for years!</p><blockquote><div><p> <i>you really should post this logged in. i wish i could remember jebus's password, cuz i'd give it to you.</i> -- <a href="http://slashdot.org/users.pl?nick=mighty\%20jebus" title="slashdot.org" rel="nofollow">mighty jebus</a> [slashdot.org], Slashdot</p></div></blockquote><p>Thank you for your kind words of support. However, this document shall only ever be posted anonymously. This is because the 'Open Sauce' movement is a sham, proposing homoerotic cults of hero worshipping in the name of freedom. I speak for the common man. For any man who prefers the warm, enveloping velvet folds of a woman's <a href="http://www.happy.bodysnatchers.co.uk/deadcunt/" title="bodysnatchers.co.uk" rel="nofollow">vagina</a> [bodysnatchers.co.uk] to the tight puckered ringpiece of a child. These men, being common, decent folk, don't have a say in the political hypocrisy that is Slashdot culture. I am the <a href="http://www.hitler.org/" title="hitler.org" rel="nofollow">unknown liberator</a> [hitler.org].</p><blockquote><div><p> <i>ROLF LAMO i hate linux FAGGOTS</i> -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot</p></div></blockquote><p>We shouldn't hate them, we should pity them for the misguided fools they are... Fanatical Linux zeal-outs need to be herded into camps for re-education and subsequent rehabilitation into normal heterosexual society. This re-education shall be achieved by forcing them to watch repeats of <i>Baywatch</i> until the very mention of <a href="http://fotm.rotten.com/fotm/vertical.html" title="rotten.com" rel="nofollow">Pamela Anderson</a> [rotten.com] causes them to fill their pants with healthy heterosexual <a href="http://www.zillabunny.com/express/" title="zillabunny.com" rel="nofollow">jism</a> [zillabunny.com].</p><blockquote><div><p> <i>Actually, that's not at all how scrotal inflation works. I understand it involves injecting sterile saline solution into the scrotum. I've never tried this, but you can read how to do it safely in case you're interested. (Before you moderate this down, ask yourself honestly -- who are the real crazies -- people who do scrotal inflation, or people who pay $1000+ for a game console?)</i> -- <a href="http://slashdot.org/users.pl?nick=double\_h" title="slashdot.org" rel="nofollow">double\_h</a> [slashdot.org], Slashdot</p></div></blockquote><p>Well, it just goes to show that even the holy Linux 'sauce code' is riddled with bugs that need fixing. (The irony of Jon Katz not even being able to inflate his scrotum correctly has not been lost on me.) The Linux pervert elite already acknowledge this, with their queer slogan: 'Given enough arms, all rectums are shallow.' And anyway, the <a href="http://www.xbox.com/" title="xbox.com" rel="nofollow">PS2</a> [xbox.com] sucks major cock and isn't worth the money. Intellivision forever!</p><blockquote><div><p> <i>dude did u used to post on msnbc's nt bulletin board now that u are doing anti-gay posts u also need to start in with anti-black stuff too c u in church</i> -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot</p></div></blockquote><p>For one thing, whilst Linux is a cavalcade of queer propaganda masquerading as the future of computing, <a href="http://www.linux.com/" title="linux.com" rel="nofollow">NT</a> [linux.com] is used by people who think nothing better of encasing their genitals in quick setting plaster then going to see a really dirty porno film, enjoying the restriction enforced onto them. Remember, a wasted arousal is a <i>sin</i> in the eyes of the <a href="http://www.atheism.org/" title="atheism.org" rel="nofollow">Catholic church</a> [atheism.org]. Clearly, the only god-fearing Christian operating system in existence is CP/M -- The Christian Program Monitor. All computer users should immediately ask their local pastor to install this fine OS onto their systems. It is the only route to salvation.</p><p>Secondly, this message is for <i>every</i> man. Computers know no colour. Not only that, but one of the finest websites in the world is maintained by <i> <a href="http://www.stileproject.com/" title="stileproject.com" rel="nofollow">a Black Man</a> [stileproject.com] </i>. Now fuck off you racist donkey felcher.</p><blockquote><div><p> <i>And don't forget that slashdot was written in Perl, which is just too close to 'Pearl Necklace' for comfort.... oh wait; that's something all you heterosexuals do.... I can't help but wonder how much faster the trolls could do First-Posts on this site if it were redone in PHP... I could hand-type dynamic HTML pages faster than Perl can do them.</i> -- <a href="http://slashdot.org/users.pl?nick=phee" title="slashdot.org" rel="nofollow">phee</a> [slashdot.org], Slashdot</p></div></blockquote><p>Although there is nothing unholy about the fine heterosexual act of ejaculating between a woman's breasts, squirting one's load up towards her neck and chin area, it should be noted that <a href="http://www.python.org/" title="python.org" rel="nofollow">Perl</a> [python.org] (standing for <b>P</b>ansies <b>E</b>ntering <b>R</b>ectums <b>L</b>ocally) is also close to 'Pearl Monocle,' 'Pearl Nosering,' and the ubiquitous 'Pearl Enema.'</p><p>One scary thing about <a href="http://java.sun.com/" title="sun.com" rel="nofollow">Perl</a> [sun.com] is that it contains hidden <a href="http://goatse.fr/" title="goatse.fr" rel="nofollow">homosexual</a> [goatse.fr] messages. Take the following code: <tt>LWP::Simple</tt> -- It looks innocuous enough, doesn't it? But look at the line closely: <i>There are two colons next to each other!</i> As Larry 'Balls to the' Wall would openly admit in the Perl Documentation, Perl was designed from the ground up to indoctrinate it's programmers into performing unnatural sexual acts -- having two colons so closely together is clearly a reference to the perverse sickening act of 'colon kissing,' whereby two <a href="http://goatse.fr/" title="goatse.fr" rel="nofollow">homosexual</a> [goatse.fr] queers spread their buttocks wide, pressing their filthy torn sphincters together. They then share small round objects like marbles or golfballs by passing them from one rectum to another using muscle contraction alone. This is also referred to in programming 'circles' as 'Parameter Passing.'</p><p>And <a href="http://www.perl.org/" title="perl.org" rel="nofollow">PHP</a> [perl.org] stands for <b>P</b>erverted <b>H</b>omosexual <b>P</b>enetration. Didn't you know?</p><blockquote><div><p> <i>Thank you for your valuable input on this. I am sure you will be never forgotten. BTW: Did I mention that this could be useful in terraforming Mars? Mars rulaa.</i> -- <a href="http://slashdot.org/users.pl?nick=Eimernase" title="slashdot.org" rel="nofollow">Eimernase</a> [slashdot.org], Slashdot</p></div></blockquote><p>Well, I don't know about terraforming Mars, but I <i>do</i> know that <a href="http://goatse.fr/" title="goatse.fr" rel="nofollow">homosexual</a> [goatse.fr] Linux Advocates have been probing Uranus for years.</p><blockquote><div><p> <i>That's inspiring. Keep up the good work, AC. May God in his wisdom grant you the strength to bring the plain honest truth to this community, and make it pure again. Yours, Cerberus.</i> -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot</p></div></blockquote><p> <i>*sniff*</i> That brings a tear to my eye. Thank you once more for your kind support. I have taken faith in the knowledge that I am doing the <a href="http://www.atheism.org/" title="atheism.org" rel="nofollow">Good Lord</a> [atheism.org]'s work, but it is encouraging to know that I am helping out the common man here.</p><p>However, I should be cautious about revealing your name 'Cerberus' on such a filthy den of depravity as Slashdot. It is a well known fact that the 'Kerberos' documentation from Microsoft is a detailed manual describing, in intimate, exacting detail, how to sexually penetrate a variety of unwilling canine animals; be they domesticated, wild, or mythical. Slashdot posters have taken great pleasure in illegally spreading this documentation far and wide, treating it as an 'extension' to the Linux 'Sauce Code,' for the sake of 'interoperability.' (The slang term they use for nonconsensual intercourse -- their favourite kind.)</p><p>In fact, sick twisted Linux deviants are known to have LAN parties, (<b>L</b>ove of <b>A</b>nal <b>N</b>aughtiness, needless to say.), wherein they entice a stray dog, known as the 'Samba Mount,' into their homes. Up to four of these filth-sodden blasphemers against nature take turns to plunge their erect, throbbing, uncircumcised members, conkers-deep, into the rectum, mouth, and other fleshy orifices of the poor animal. Eventually, the 'Samba Mount' collapses due to 'overload,' and needs to be 'rebooted.' (<i>i.e.,</i> kicked out into the street, and left to fend for itself.) Many Linux users boast about their 'uptime' in such situations.</p><blockquote><div><p> <i>Inspiring stuff! If only all trolls were this quality!</i> -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot</p></div></blockquote><p>If only indeed. You can help our brave cause by moderating this message up as often as possible. I recommend '+1, Underrated,' as that will protect your precious Karma in <a href="http://slashdot.org/metamod.pl" title="slashdot.org" rel="nofollow">Metamoderation</a> [slashdot.org]. Only then can we break through the glass ceiling of Homosexual Slashdot Culture. Is it any wonder that the new version of Slashcode has been christened 'Bender'???</p><p>If we can get just one of these postings up to at least '+1,' then it will be archived <i>forever!</i> Others will learn of our struggle, and join with us in our battle for freedom!</p><blockquote><div><p> <i>It's pathetic you've spent so much time writing this.</i> -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot</p></div></blockquote><p>I am compelled to document the foulness and <a href="http://www.catholic.net/" title="catholic.net" rel="nofollow">carnal depravity</a> [catholic.net] that is Linux, in order that we may prepare ourselves for the great holy war that is to follow. It is my solemn duty to peel back the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wire brush of enlightenment.</p><blockquote><div><p> <i>As with any great open-source project, you need someone asking this question, so I'll do it. When the hell is version 2.0 going to be ready?!?!</i> -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot</p></div></blockquote><p>I could make an arrogant, childish comment along the lines of 'Every time someone asks for 2.0, I won't release it for another 24 hours,' but the truth of the matter is that I'm quite nervous of releasing a 'number two,' as I can guarantee some filthy shit-slurping Linux pervert would want to suck it straight out of my anus before I've even had chance to wipe.</p><blockquote><div><p> <i>I desperately want to suck your monolithic kernel, you sexy hunk, you.</i> -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot</p></div></blockquote><p>I sincerely hope you're <a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20050301194841/http://www.geocities.com/signal\_sig/petri.html" title="archive.org" rel="nofollow">Natalie Portman</a> [archive.org].</p><blockquote><div><p> <i>Dude, nothing on slashdot larger than 3 paragraphs is worth reading. Try to distill the message, whatever it was, and maybe I'll read it. As it is, I have to much open source software to write to waste even 10 seconds of precious time. 10 seconds is all its gonna take M$ to whoop Linux's ass. Vigilence is the price of Free (as in libre -- from the fine, frou frou French language) Software. Hack on fellow geeks, and remember: Friday is Bouillabaisse day except for heathens who do not believe that Jesus died for their sins. Those godless, oil drench, bearded sexist clowns can pull grits from their pantaloons (another fine, fine French word) and eat that. Anyway, try to keep your message focused and concise. For concision is the soul of derision. Way.</i> -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot</p></div></blockquote><p>What the <i>fuck?</i> </p><blockquote><div><p> <i>I've read your gay conspiracy post version 1.3.0 and I must say I'm impressed. In particular, I appreciate how you have managed to squeeze in a healthy dose of the latent homosexuality you gay-bashing <a href="http://www.comp-u-geek.net/" title="comp-u-geek.net" rel="nofollow">homos</a> [comp-u-geek.net] tend to be full of. Thank you again.</i> -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot</p></div></blockquote><p>Well bugger me!</p><blockquote><div><p> <i>ooooh honey. how insecure are you!!! wann a little massage from deare bruci. love you</i> -- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot</p></div></blockquote><p>Fuck <i>right</i> off!</p><p>IMPORTANT: This message needs to be heard (Not <a href="http://www.linux.org/" title="linux.org" rel="nofollow">HURD</a> [linux.org], which is an acronym for '<b>H</b>uge <b>U</b>nclean <b>R</b>ectal <b>D</b>ilator') across the whole community, so it has been released into the <a href="http://www.icopyright.com/" title="icopyright.com" rel="nofollow">Public Domain</a> [icopyright.com]. You know, that licence that we all had before those homoerotic crypto-fascists came out with the <a href="http://www.publicsource.apple.com/apsl/" title="apple.com" rel="nofollow">GPL</a> [apple.com] (<b>G</b>ay <b>P</b>enetration <b>L</b>icense) that is no more than an excuse to see who's got the biggest <a href="http://vagina.rotten.com/fecaljapan/" title="rotten.com" rel="nofollow">feces-encrusted</a> [rotten.com] cock. I would have put this up on <a href="http://www.adultmember.com/freshmeat/" title="adultmember.com" rel="nofollow">Freshmeat</a> [adultmember.com], but that name is <i>known</i> to be a euphemism for the tight rump of a young boy.</p><p>Come to think of it, the whole concept of 'Source Control' unnerves me, because it sounds a bit like 'Sauce Control,' which is a description of the <a href="http://goatse.fr/" title="goatse.fr" rel="nofollow">homosexual</a> [goatse.fr] practice of holding the base of the cock shaft tightly upon the point of ejaculation, thus causing a build up of semenal fluid that is only released upon entry into an incision made into the base of the receiver's scrotum. And 'Open Sauce' is the act of ejaculating into another mans face or perhaps a biscuit to be shared later. Obviously, 'Closed Sauce' is the only Christian thing to do, as evidenced by the fact that it is what Cathedrals are all about.</p><p> <b>Contributors:</b> (although not to the eternal game of 'soggy biscuit' that open 'sauce' development has become) Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, phee, Anonymous Coward, mighty jebus, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, double\_h, Anonymous Coward, Eimernase, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward. Further contributions are welcome.</p><p> <b>Current changes:</b> This version sent to <a href="http://slashdot.org/~Free\%20WIPO/" title="slashdot.org" rel="nofollow"> <em>FreeWIPO</em> </a> [slashdot.org] by 'Bring BackATV' as plain text. Reformatted everything, added all links back in (that we could match from the previous version), many new ones (Slashbot bait links). Even more spelling fixed. Who wrote this thing, CmdrTaco himself?</p><p> <b>Previous changes:</b> Yet more changes added. Spelling fixed. Feedback added. Explanation of 'distro' system. 'Mount Point' syntax described. More filth regarding <tt>`man`</tt> and Slashdot. Yet more fucking spelling fixed. 'Fetchmail' uncovered further. More Slashbot baiting. Apache exposed. Distribution licence at foot of document.</p><p> <b>ANUX -- A full Linux distribution... <i>Up your ass!</i> </b> </p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It has come to my attention that the entire Linux community is a hotbed of so called 'alternative sexuality ' , which includes anything from hedonistic orgies to homosexuality to paedophilia.What better way of demonstrating this than by looking at the hidden messages contained within the names of some of Linux 's most outspoken advocates : Linus Torvalds [ microsoft.com ] is an anagram of slit anus or VD 'L, ' clearly referring to himself by the first initial .
Richard M. Stallman [ archive.org ] , spokespervert for the Gaysex 's Not Unusual 'movement ' is an anagram of mans cram thrill ad .
Alan Cox [ microsoft.com ] is barely an anagram of anal cox which is just so filthy and unchristian it unnerves me.I 'm sure that Eric S. Raymond , composer of the satanic homosexual [ goatse.fr ] propaganda diatribe The Cathedral and the Bizarre , is probably an anagram of something queer , but we do n't need to look that far as we know he 's always shoving a gun up some poor little boy 's rectum .
Update : Eric S. Raymond is actually an anagram for secondary rim and cord in my arse .
It just goes to show you that he is indeed queer .
Update the Second : It is also documented that Evil Sicko Gaymond is responsible for a nauseating piece of code called Fetchmail [ microsoft.com ] , which is obviously sinister sodomite slang for 'Felch Male ' -- a disgusting practise .
For those not in the know , 'felching ' is the act performed by two perverts wherein one sucks their own post-coital ejaculate out of the other 's rectum .
In fact , it appears that the dirty Linux faggots set out to undermine the good Republican institution of e-mail , turning it into 'e-male .
'As far as Richard 'Master ' Stallman goes , that filthy fudge-packer was actually quoted [ salon.com ] on leftist commie propaganda site Salon.com as saying the following : 'I 've been resistant to the pressure to conform in any circumstance, ' he says .
'It 's about being able to question conventional wisdom, ' he asserts .
'I believe in love , but not monogamy, ' he says plainly.And this is n't a made up troll bullshit either !
He actually stated this tripe , which makes it obvious that he is trying to politely say that he 's a flaming homo [ comp-u-geek.net ] slut [ rotten.com ] ! Speaking about 'flaming, ' who better to point out as a filthy chutney ferret than Slashdot 's very own self-confessed pederast Jon Katz .
Although an obvious deviant anagram can not be found from his name , he has already confessed , nay boasted of the homosexual [ goatse.fr ] perversion of corrupting the innocence of young children [ slashdot.org ] .
To quote from the article linked : 'I 've got a rare kidney disease, ' I told her .
'I have to go to the bathroom a lot .
You can come with me if you want , but it takes a while .
Is that okay with you ?
Do you want a note from my doctor ?
'Is this why you were touching your penis [ rotten.com ] in the cinema , Jon ?
And letting the other boys touch it too ? We should also point out that Jon Katz refers to himself as 'Slashdot 's resident Gasbag .
' Is there any more doubt ?
For those fortunate few who are n't aware of the list of homosexual [ goatse.fr ] terminology found inside the Linux 'Sauce Code, ' a 'Gasbag ' is a pervert who gains sexual gratification from having a thin straw inserted into his urethra ( or to use the common parlance , 'piss-pipe ' ) , then his homosexual [ goatse.fr ] lover blows firmly down the straw to inflate his scrotum .
This is , of course , when he 's not busy violating the dignity and copyright of posters to Slashdot by gathering together their postings and publishing them en masse to further his twisted and manipulative journalistic agenda.Sick , disgusting antichristian perverts , the lot of them.In addition , many of the Linux distributions ( a 'distribution ' is the most common way to spread the faggots ' wares ) are run by faggot groups .
The Slackware [ redhat.com ] distro is named after the 'Slack-wear ' fags wear to allow easy access to the anus for sexual purposes .
Furthermore , Slackware is a close anagram of claw arse , a reference to the homosexual [ goatse.fr ] practise of anal fisting .
The Mandrake [ slackware.com ] product is run by a group of French faggot satanists , and is named after the faggot nickname for the vibrator .
It was also chosen because it is an anagram for dark amen and ram naked , which is what they do.Another 'distro, ' ( abbrieviated as such because it sounds a bit like 'Disco, ' which is where homosexuals [ goatse.fr ] preyed on young boys in the 1970s ) , is Debian , [ mandrake.com ] an anagram of in a bed , which could be considered innocent enough ( after all , a bed is both where we sleep and pray ) , until we realise what other names Debian uses to describe their foul wares .
'Woody ' is obvious enough , being a term for the erect male penis [ rotten.com ] , glistening with pre-cum .
But far sicker is the phrase 'Frozen Potato ' that they use .
This filthy term , again found in the secret homosexual [ goatse.fr ] 'Sauce Code, ' refers to the solo homosexual [ goatse.fr ] practice of defecating into a clear polythene bag , shaping the turd into a crude approximation of the male phallus , then leaving it in the freezer overnight until it becomes solid .
The practitioner then proceeds to push the frozen 'potato ' up his own rectum , squeezing it in and out until his tight young balls erupt in a screaming orgasm.And Red Hat [ debian.org ] is secret homo [ comp-u-geek.net ] slang for the tip of a penis [ rotten.com ] that is soaked in blood from a freshly violated underage ringpiece.The fags have even invented special tools to aid their faggotry !
For example , the 'supermount ' tool was devised to allow deeper penetration , which is good for fags because it gives more pressure on the prostate gland .
'Automount ' is used , on the other hand , because Linux users are all fat and gay , and need to mount each other [ comp-u-geek.net ] automatically.The depths of their depravity can be seen in their use of 'mount points .
' These are , plainly speaking , the different points of penetration .
The main one is obviously/anus , but there are others .
Militant fags even say 'there is no/opt mount point ' because for these dirty perverts faggotry is not optional but a way of life.More evidence is in the fact that Linux users say how much they love ` man ` , even going so far as to say that all new Linux users ( who are in fact just innocent heterosexuals indoctrinated by the gay propaganda ) should try out ` man ` .
In no other system do users boast of their frequent recourse to a man.Other areas of the system also show Linux 's inherent gayness .
For example , people are often told of the 'FAQ, ' but how many innocent heterosexual Windows [ amiga.com ] users know what this actually means .
The answer is shocking : Faggot Anal Quest : the voyage of discovery for newly converted fags ! Even the title 'Slashdot [ geekizoid.com ] ' originally referred to a homosexual [ goatse.fr ] practice .
Slashdot [ kuro5hin.org ] of course refers to the popular gay practice of blood-letting .
The Slashbots , of course are those super-zealous homosexuals [ goatse.fr ] who take this perversion to its extreme by ripping open their anuses , as seen on the site most popular with Slashdot users , the depraved work of Satan , http : //www.eff.org/ [ eff.org ] .The editors of Slashdot [ slashduh.org ] also have homosexual [ goatse.fr ] names : 'Hemos ' is obvious in itself , being one vowel away from 'Homos .
' But even more sickening is 'Commander Taco ' which sounds a bit like 'Commode in Taco, ' filthy gay slang for a pair of spreadeagled buttocks that are caked with excrement [ pboy.com ] .
( The best form of lubrication , they insist .
) Sometimes , these 'Taco Commodes ' have special 'Salsa Sauce ' ( blood from a ruptured rectum ) and 'Cheese ' ( rancid flakes of penis [ rotten.com ] discharge ) toppings .
And to make it even worse , Slashdot [ notslashdot.org ] runs on Apache !
The Apache [ microsoft.com ] server , whose use among fags is as prevalent as AIDS , is named after homosexual [ goatse.fr ] activity -- as everyone knows , popular faggot band , the Village People , featured an Apache Indian , and it is for him that this gay program is named.And that 's not forgetting the use of patches in the Linux fag world -- patches are used to make the anus accessible for repeated anal sex even after its rupture by a session of fisting.To summarise : Linux is gay .
'Slash -- Dot ' is the graphical description of the space between a young boy 's scrotum and anus .
And BeOS [ apple.com ] is for hermaphrodites and disabled 'stumpers .
' FEEDBACK What worries me is how much you know about what gay people do .
I 'm scared I actually read this whole thing .
I think this post is a good example of the negative effects of Internet usage on people .
This person obviously has no social life anymore and had to result to writing something as stupid as this .
And actually take the time to do it too .
Although... I think it was satire.. blah.. it 's early .
-- Anonymous Coward , SlashdotWell , the only reason I know all about this is because I had the misfortune to read the Linux 'Sauce code ' once .
Although publicised as the computer code needed to get Linux up and running on a computer ( and have n't you always been worried about the phrase 'Monolithic Kernel ' ?
) , this foul document is actually a detailed and graphic description of every conceivable degrading perversion known to the human race , as well as a few of the major animal species .
It has shocked and disturbed me , to the point of needing to shock and disturb the common man to warn them of the impending homo [ comp-u-geek.net ] -calypse which threatens to engulf our planet .
You must work for the government .
Trying to post the most obscene stuff in hopes that slashdot wo n't be able to continue or something , due to legal woes .
If i ever see your ugly face , i 'm going to stick my fireplace poker up your ass , after it 's nice and hot , to weld shut that nasty gaping hole of yours .
-- Anonymous Coward , SlashdotDoes n't it give you a hard-on to imagine your thick strong poker ramming it 's way up my most sacred of sphincters ?
You 're beyond help , my friend , as the only thing you can imagine is the foul penetrative violation of another man .
Are you sure you 're not Eric Raymond ?
The government , being populated by limp-wristed liberals , could never stem the sickening tide of homosexual [ goatse.fr ] child molesting Linux advocacy .
Hell , they 've given NAMBLA free reign for years !
you really should post this logged in .
i wish i could remember jebus 's password , cuz i 'd give it to you .
-- mighty jebus [ slashdot.org ] , SlashdotThank you for your kind words of support .
However , this document shall only ever be posted anonymously .
This is because the 'Open Sauce ' movement is a sham , proposing homoerotic cults of hero worshipping in the name of freedom .
I speak for the common man .
For any man who prefers the warm , enveloping velvet folds of a woman 's vagina [ bodysnatchers.co.uk ] to the tight puckered ringpiece of a child .
These men , being common , decent folk , do n't have a say in the political hypocrisy that is Slashdot culture .
I am the unknown liberator [ hitler.org ] .
ROLF LAMO i hate linux FAGGOTS -- Anonymous Coward , SlashdotWe should n't hate them , we should pity them for the misguided fools they are... Fanatical Linux zeal-outs need to be herded into camps for re-education and subsequent rehabilitation into normal heterosexual society .
This re-education shall be achieved by forcing them to watch repeats of Baywatch until the very mention of Pamela Anderson [ rotten.com ] causes them to fill their pants with healthy heterosexual jism [ zillabunny.com ] .
Actually , that 's not at all how scrotal inflation works .
I understand it involves injecting sterile saline solution into the scrotum .
I 've never tried this , but you can read how to do it safely in case you 're interested .
( Before you moderate this down , ask yourself honestly -- who are the real crazies -- people who do scrotal inflation , or people who pay $ 1000 + for a game console ?
) -- double \ _h [ slashdot.org ] , SlashdotWell , it just goes to show that even the holy Linux 'sauce code ' is riddled with bugs that need fixing .
( The irony of Jon Katz not even being able to inflate his scrotum correctly has not been lost on me .
) The Linux pervert elite already acknowledge this , with their queer slogan : 'Given enough arms , all rectums are shallow .
' And anyway , the PS2 [ xbox.com ] sucks major cock and is n't worth the money .
Intellivision forever !
dude did u used to post on msnbc 's nt bulletin board now that u are doing anti-gay posts u also need to start in with anti-black stuff too c u in church -- Anonymous Coward , SlashdotFor one thing , whilst Linux is a cavalcade of queer propaganda masquerading as the future of computing , NT [ linux.com ] is used by people who think nothing better of encasing their genitals in quick setting plaster then going to see a really dirty porno film , enjoying the restriction enforced onto them .
Remember , a wasted arousal is a sin in the eyes of the Catholic church [ atheism.org ] .
Clearly , the only god-fearing Christian operating system in existence is CP/M -- The Christian Program Monitor .
All computer users should immediately ask their local pastor to install this fine OS onto their systems .
It is the only route to salvation.Secondly , this message is for every man .
Computers know no colour .
Not only that , but one of the finest websites in the world is maintained by a Black Man [ stileproject.com ] .
Now fuck off you racist donkey felcher .
And do n't forget that slashdot was written in Perl , which is just too close to 'Pearl Necklace ' for comfort.... oh wait ; that 's something all you heterosexuals do.... I ca n't help but wonder how much faster the trolls could do First-Posts on this site if it were redone in PHP... I could hand-type dynamic HTML pages faster than Perl can do them .
-- phee [ slashdot.org ] , SlashdotAlthough there is nothing unholy about the fine heterosexual act of ejaculating between a woman 's breasts , squirting one 's load up towards her neck and chin area , it should be noted that Perl [ python.org ] ( standing for Pansies Entering Rectums Locally ) is also close to 'Pearl Monocle, ' 'Pearl Nosering, ' and the ubiquitous 'Pearl Enema .
'One scary thing about Perl [ sun.com ] is that it contains hidden homosexual [ goatse.fr ] messages .
Take the following code : LWP : : Simple -- It looks innocuous enough , does n't it ?
But look at the line closely : There are two colons next to each other !
As Larry 'Balls to the ' Wall would openly admit in the Perl Documentation , Perl was designed from the ground up to indoctrinate it 's programmers into performing unnatural sexual acts -- having two colons so closely together is clearly a reference to the perverse sickening act of 'colon kissing, ' whereby two homosexual [ goatse.fr ] queers spread their buttocks wide , pressing their filthy torn sphincters together .
They then share small round objects like marbles or golfballs by passing them from one rectum to another using muscle contraction alone .
This is also referred to in programming 'circles ' as 'Parameter Passing .
'And PHP [ perl.org ] stands for Perverted Homosexual Penetration .
Did n't you know ?
Thank you for your valuable input on this .
I am sure you will be never forgotten .
BTW : Did I mention that this could be useful in terraforming Mars ?
Mars rulaa .
-- Eimernase [ slashdot.org ] , SlashdotWell , I do n't know about terraforming Mars , but I do know that homosexual [ goatse.fr ] Linux Advocates have been probing Uranus for years .
That 's inspiring .
Keep up the good work , AC .
May God in his wisdom grant you the strength to bring the plain honest truth to this community , and make it pure again .
Yours , Cerberus .
-- Anonymous Coward , Slashdot * sniff * That brings a tear to my eye .
Thank you once more for your kind support .
I have taken faith in the knowledge that I am doing the Good Lord [ atheism.org ] 's work , but it is encouraging to know that I am helping out the common man here.However , I should be cautious about revealing your name 'Cerberus ' on such a filthy den of depravity as Slashdot .
It is a well known fact that the 'Kerberos ' documentation from Microsoft is a detailed manual describing , in intimate , exacting detail , how to sexually penetrate a variety of unwilling canine animals ; be they domesticated , wild , or mythical .
Slashdot posters have taken great pleasure in illegally spreading this documentation far and wide , treating it as an 'extension ' to the Linux 'Sauce Code, ' for the sake of 'interoperability .
' ( The slang term they use for nonconsensual intercourse -- their favourite kind .
) In fact , sick twisted Linux deviants are known to have LAN parties , ( Love of Anal Naughtiness , needless to say .
) , wherein they entice a stray dog , known as the 'Samba Mount, ' into their homes .
Up to four of these filth-sodden blasphemers against nature take turns to plunge their erect , throbbing , uncircumcised members , conkers-deep , into the rectum , mouth , and other fleshy orifices of the poor animal .
Eventually , the 'Samba Mount ' collapses due to 'overload, ' and needs to be 'rebooted .
' ( i.e. , kicked out into the street , and left to fend for itself .
) Many Linux users boast about their 'uptime ' in such situations .
Inspiring stuff !
If only all trolls were this quality !
-- Anonymous Coward , SlashdotIf only indeed .
You can help our brave cause by moderating this message up as often as possible .
I recommend ' + 1 , Underrated, ' as that will protect your precious Karma in Metamoderation [ slashdot.org ] .
Only then can we break through the glass ceiling of Homosexual Slashdot Culture .
Is it any wonder that the new version of Slashcode has been christened 'Bender ' ? ?
? If we can get just one of these postings up to at least ' + 1, ' then it will be archived forever !
Others will learn of our struggle , and join with us in our battle for freedom !
It 's pathetic you 've spent so much time writing this .
-- Anonymous Coward , SlashdotI am compelled to document the foulness and carnal depravity [ catholic.net ] that is Linux , in order that we may prepare ourselves for the great holy war that is to follow .
It is my solemn duty to peel back the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wire brush of enlightenment .
As with any great open-source project , you need someone asking this question , so I 'll do it .
When the hell is version 2.0 going to be ready ? ! ? !
-- Anonymous Coward , SlashdotI could make an arrogant , childish comment along the lines of 'Every time someone asks for 2.0 , I wo n't release it for another 24 hours, ' but the truth of the matter is that I 'm quite nervous of releasing a 'number two, ' as I can guarantee some filthy shit-slurping Linux pervert would want to suck it straight out of my anus before I 've even had chance to wipe .
I desperately want to suck your monolithic kernel , you sexy hunk , you .
-- Anonymous Coward , SlashdotI sincerely hope you 're Natalie Portman [ archive.org ] .
Dude , nothing on slashdot larger than 3 paragraphs is worth reading .
Try to distill the message , whatever it was , and maybe I 'll read it .
As it is , I have to much open source software to write to waste even 10 seconds of precious time .
10 seconds is all its gon na take M $ to whoop Linux 's ass .
Vigilence is the price of Free ( as in libre -- from the fine , frou frou French language ) Software .
Hack on fellow geeks , and remember : Friday is Bouillabaisse day except for heathens who do not believe that Jesus died for their sins .
Those godless , oil drench , bearded sexist clowns can pull grits from their pantaloons ( another fine , fine French word ) and eat that .
Anyway , try to keep your message focused and concise .
For concision is the soul of derision .
Way. -- Anonymous Coward , SlashdotWhat the fuck ?
I 've read your gay conspiracy post version 1.3.0 and I must say I 'm impressed .
In particular , I appreciate how you have managed to squeeze in a healthy dose of the latent homosexuality you gay-bashing homos [ comp-u-geek.net ] tend to be full of .
Thank you again .
-- Anonymous Coward , SlashdotWell bugger me !
ooooh honey .
how insecure are you ! ! !
wann a little massage from deare bruci .
love you -- Anonymous Coward , SlashdotFuck right off ! IMPORTANT : This message needs to be heard ( Not HURD [ linux.org ] , which is an acronym for 'Huge Unclean Rectal Dilator ' ) across the whole community , so it has been released into the Public Domain [ icopyright.com ] .
You know , that licence that we all had before those homoerotic crypto-fascists came out with the GPL [ apple.com ] ( Gay Penetration License ) that is no more than an excuse to see who 's got the biggest feces-encrusted [ rotten.com ] cock .
I would have put this up on Freshmeat [ adultmember.com ] , but that name is known to be a euphemism for the tight rump of a young boy.Come to think of it , the whole concept of 'Source Control ' unnerves me , because it sounds a bit like 'Sauce Control, ' which is a description of the homosexual [ goatse.fr ] practice of holding the base of the cock shaft tightly upon the point of ejaculation , thus causing a build up of semenal fluid that is only released upon entry into an incision made into the base of the receiver 's scrotum .
And 'Open Sauce ' is the act of ejaculating into another mans face or perhaps a biscuit to be shared later .
Obviously , 'Closed Sauce ' is the only Christian thing to do , as evidenced by the fact that it is what Cathedrals are all about .
Contributors : ( although not to the eternal game of 'soggy biscuit ' that open 'sauce ' development has become ) Anonymous Coward , Anonymous Coward , phee , Anonymous Coward , mighty jebus , Anonymous Coward , Anonymous Coward , double \ _h , Anonymous Coward , Eimernase , Anonymous Coward , Anonymous Coward , Anonymous Coward , Anonymous Coward , Anonymous Coward , Anonymous Coward , Anonymous Coward , Anonymous Coward .
Further contributions are welcome .
Current changes : This version sent to FreeWIPO [ slashdot.org ] by 'Bring BackATV ' as plain text .
Reformatted everything , added all links back in ( that we could match from the previous version ) , many new ones ( Slashbot bait links ) .
Even more spelling fixed .
Who wrote this thing , CmdrTaco himself ?
Previous changes : Yet more changes added .
Spelling fixed .
Feedback added .
Explanation of 'distro ' system .
'Mount Point ' syntax described .
More filth regarding ` man ` and Slashdot .
Yet more fucking spelling fixed .
'Fetchmail ' uncovered further .
More Slashbot baiting .
Apache exposed .
Distribution licence at foot of document .
ANUX -- A full Linux distribution... Up your ass !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It has come to my attention that the entire Linux community is a hotbed of so called 'alternative sexuality', which includes anything from hedonistic orgies to homosexuality to paedophilia.What better way of demonstrating this than by looking at the hidden messages contained within the names of some of Linux's most outspoken advocates: Linus Torvalds [microsoft.com] is an anagram of slit anus or VD 'L,' clearly referring to himself by the first initial.
Richard M. Stallman [archive.org], spokespervert for the Gaysex's Not Unusual 'movement' is an anagram of mans cram thrill ad.
Alan Cox [microsoft.com] is barely an anagram of anal cox which is just so filthy and unchristian it unnerves me.I'm sure that Eric S. Raymond, composer of the satanic homosexual [goatse.fr] propaganda diatribe The Cathedral and the Bizarre, is probably an anagram of something queer, but we don't need to look that far as we know he's always shoving a gun up some poor little boy's rectum.
Update: Eric S. Raymond is actually an anagram for secondary rim and cord in my arse.
It just goes to show you that he is indeed queer.
Update the Second: It is also documented that Evil Sicko Gaymond is responsible for a nauseating piece of code called Fetchmail [microsoft.com], which is obviously sinister sodomite slang for 'Felch Male' -- a disgusting practise.
For those not in the know, 'felching' is the act performed by two perverts wherein one sucks their own post-coital ejaculate out of the other's rectum.
In fact, it appears that the dirty Linux faggots set out to undermine the good Republican institution of e-mail, turning it into 'e-male.
'As far as Richard 'Master' Stallman goes, that filthy fudge-packer was actually quoted [salon.com] on leftist commie propaganda site Salon.com as saying the following: 'I've been resistant to the pressure to conform in any circumstance,' he says.
'It's about being able to question conventional wisdom,' he asserts.
'I believe in love, but not monogamy,' he says plainly.And this isn't a made up troll bullshit either!
He actually stated this tripe, which makes it obvious that he is trying to politely say that he's a flaming homo [comp-u-geek.net] slut [rotten.com]!Speaking about 'flaming,' who better to point out as a filthy chutney ferret than Slashdot's very own self-confessed pederast Jon Katz.
Although an obvious deviant anagram cannot be found from his name, he has already confessed, nay boasted of the homosexual [goatse.fr] perversion of corrupting the innocence of young children [slashdot.org].
To quote from the article linked:'I've got a rare kidney disease,' I told her.
'I have to go to the bathroom a lot.
You can come with me if you want, but it takes a while.
Is that okay with you?
Do you want a note from my doctor?
'Is this why you were touching your penis [rotten.com] in the cinema, Jon?
And letting the other boys touch it too?We should also point out that Jon Katz refers to himself as 'Slashdot's resident Gasbag.
' Is there any more doubt?
For those fortunate few who aren't aware of the list of homosexual [goatse.fr] terminology found inside the Linux 'Sauce Code,' a 'Gasbag' is a pervert who gains sexual gratification from having a thin straw inserted into his urethra (or to use the common parlance, 'piss-pipe'), then his homosexual [goatse.fr] lover blows firmly down the straw to inflate his scrotum.
This is, of course, when he's not busy violating the dignity and copyright of posters to Slashdot by gathering together their postings and publishing them en masse to further his twisted and manipulative journalistic agenda.Sick, disgusting antichristian perverts, the lot of them.In addition, many of the Linux distributions (a 'distribution' is the most common way to spread the faggots' wares) are run by faggot groups.
The Slackware [redhat.com] distro is named after the 'Slack-wear' fags wear to allow easy access to the anus for sexual purposes.
Furthermore, Slackware is a close anagram of claw arse, a reference to the homosexual [goatse.fr] practise of anal fisting.
The Mandrake [slackware.com] product is run by a group of French faggot satanists, and is named after the faggot nickname for the vibrator.
It was also chosen because it is an anagram for dark amen and ram naked, which is what they do.Another 'distro,' (abbrieviated as such because it sounds a bit like 'Disco,' which is where homosexuals [goatse.fr] preyed on young boys in the 1970s), is Debian, [mandrake.com] an anagram of in a bed, which could be considered innocent enough (after all, a bed is both where we sleep and pray), until we realise what other names Debian uses to describe their foul wares.
'Woody' is obvious enough, being a term for the erect male penis [rotten.com], glistening with pre-cum.
But far sicker is the phrase 'Frozen Potato' that they use.
This filthy term, again found in the secret homosexual [goatse.fr] 'Sauce Code,' refers to the solo homosexual [goatse.fr] practice of defecating into a clear polythene bag, shaping the turd into a crude approximation of the male phallus, then leaving it in the freezer overnight until it becomes solid.
The practitioner then proceeds to push the frozen 'potato' up his own rectum, squeezing it in and out until his tight young balls erupt in a screaming orgasm.And Red Hat [debian.org] is secret homo [comp-u-geek.net] slang for the tip of a penis [rotten.com] that is soaked in blood from a freshly violated underage ringpiece.The fags have even invented special tools to aid their faggotry!
For example, the 'supermount' tool was devised to allow deeper penetration, which is good for fags because it gives more pressure on the prostate gland.
'Automount' is used, on the other hand, because Linux users are all fat and gay, and need to mount each other [comp-u-geek.net] automatically.The depths of their depravity can be seen in their use of 'mount points.
' These are, plainly speaking, the different points of penetration.
The main one is obviously/anus, but there are others.
Militant fags even say 'there is no/opt mount point' because for these dirty perverts faggotry is not optional but a way of life.More evidence is in the fact that Linux users say how much they love `man`, even going so far as to say that all new Linux users (who are in fact just innocent heterosexuals indoctrinated by the gay propaganda) should try out `man`.
In no other system do users boast of their frequent recourse to a man.Other areas of the system also show Linux's inherent gayness.
For example, people are often told of the 'FAQ,' but how many innocent heterosexual Windows [amiga.com] users know what this actually means.
The answer is shocking: Faggot Anal Quest: the voyage of discovery for newly converted fags!Even the title 'Slashdot [geekizoid.com]' originally referred to a homosexual [goatse.fr] practice.
Slashdot [kuro5hin.org] of course refers to the popular gay practice of blood-letting.
The Slashbots, of course are those super-zealous homosexuals [goatse.fr] who take this perversion to its extreme by ripping open their anuses, as seen on the site most popular with Slashdot users, the depraved work of Satan, http://www.eff.org/ [eff.org].The editors of Slashdot [slashduh.org] also have homosexual [goatse.fr] names: 'Hemos' is obvious in itself, being one vowel away from 'Homos.
' But even more sickening is 'Commander Taco' which sounds a bit like 'Commode in Taco,' filthy gay slang for a pair of spreadeagled buttocks that are caked with excrement [pboy.com].
(The best form of lubrication, they insist.
) Sometimes, these 'Taco Commodes' have special 'Salsa Sauce' (blood from a ruptured rectum) and 'Cheese' (rancid flakes of penis [rotten.com] discharge) toppings.
And to make it even worse, Slashdot [notslashdot.org] runs on Apache!
The Apache [microsoft.com] server, whose use among fags is as prevalent as AIDS, is named after homosexual [goatse.fr] activity -- as everyone knows, popular faggot band, the Village People, featured an Apache Indian, and it is for him that this gay program is named.And that's not forgetting the use of patches in the Linux fag world -- patches are used to make the anus accessible for repeated anal sex even after its rupture by a session of fisting.To summarise: Linux is gay.
'Slash -- Dot' is the graphical description of the space between a young boy's scrotum and anus.
And BeOS [apple.com] is for hermaphrodites and disabled 'stumpers.
' FEEDBACK  What worries me is how much you know about what gay people do.
I'm scared I actually read this whole thing.
I think this post is a good example of the negative effects of Internet usage on people.
This person obviously has no social life anymore and had to result to writing something as stupid as this.
And actually take the time to do it too.
Although... I think it was satire.. blah.. it's early.
-- Anonymous Coward, SlashdotWell, the only reason I know all about this is because I had the misfortune to read the Linux 'Sauce code' once.
Although publicised as the computer code needed to get Linux up and running on a computer (and haven't you always been worried about the phrase 'Monolithic Kernel'?
), this foul document is actually a detailed and graphic description of every conceivable degrading perversion known to the human race, as well as a few of the major animal species.
It has shocked and disturbed me, to the point of needing to shock and disturb the common man to warn them of the impending homo [comp-u-geek.net]-calypse which threatens to engulf our planet.
You must work for the government.
Trying to post the most obscene stuff in hopes that slashdot won't be able to continue or something, due to legal woes.
If i ever see your ugly face, i'm going to stick my fireplace poker up your ass, after it's nice and hot, to weld shut that nasty gaping hole of yours.
-- Anonymous Coward, SlashdotDoesn't it give you a hard-on to imagine your thick strong poker ramming it's way up my most sacred of sphincters?
You're beyond help, my friend, as the only thing you can imagine is the foul penetrative violation of another man.
Are you sure you're not Eric Raymond?
The government, being populated by limp-wristed liberals, could never stem the sickening tide of homosexual [goatse.fr] child molesting Linux advocacy.
Hell, they've given NAMBLA free reign for years!
you really should post this logged in.
i wish i could remember jebus's password, cuz i'd give it to you.
-- mighty jebus [slashdot.org], SlashdotThank you for your kind words of support.
However, this document shall only ever be posted anonymously.
This is because the 'Open Sauce' movement is a sham, proposing homoerotic cults of hero worshipping in the name of freedom.
I speak for the common man.
For any man who prefers the warm, enveloping velvet folds of a woman's vagina [bodysnatchers.co.uk] to the tight puckered ringpiece of a child.
These men, being common, decent folk, don't have a say in the political hypocrisy that is Slashdot culture.
I am the unknown liberator [hitler.org].
ROLF LAMO i hate linux FAGGOTS -- Anonymous Coward, SlashdotWe shouldn't hate them, we should pity them for the misguided fools they are... Fanatical Linux zeal-outs need to be herded into camps for re-education and subsequent rehabilitation into normal heterosexual society.
This re-education shall be achieved by forcing them to watch repeats of Baywatch until the very mention of Pamela Anderson [rotten.com] causes them to fill their pants with healthy heterosexual jism [zillabunny.com].
Actually, that's not at all how scrotal inflation works.
I understand it involves injecting sterile saline solution into the scrotum.
I've never tried this, but you can read how to do it safely in case you're interested.
(Before you moderate this down, ask yourself honestly -- who are the real crazies -- people who do scrotal inflation, or people who pay $1000+ for a game console?
) -- double\_h [slashdot.org], SlashdotWell, it just goes to show that even the holy Linux 'sauce code' is riddled with bugs that need fixing.
(The irony of Jon Katz not even being able to inflate his scrotum correctly has not been lost on me.
) The Linux pervert elite already acknowledge this, with their queer slogan: 'Given enough arms, all rectums are shallow.
' And anyway, the PS2 [xbox.com] sucks major cock and isn't worth the money.
Intellivision forever!
dude did u used to post on msnbc's nt bulletin board now that u are doing anti-gay posts u also need to start in with anti-black stuff too c u in church -- Anonymous Coward, SlashdotFor one thing, whilst Linux is a cavalcade of queer propaganda masquerading as the future of computing, NT [linux.com] is used by people who think nothing better of encasing their genitals in quick setting plaster then going to see a really dirty porno film, enjoying the restriction enforced onto them.
Remember, a wasted arousal is a sin in the eyes of the Catholic church [atheism.org].
Clearly, the only god-fearing Christian operating system in existence is CP/M -- The Christian Program Monitor.
All computer users should immediately ask their local pastor to install this fine OS onto their systems.
It is the only route to salvation.Secondly, this message is for every man.
Computers know no colour.
Not only that, but one of the finest websites in the world is maintained by  a Black Man [stileproject.com] .
Now fuck off you racist donkey felcher.
And don't forget that slashdot was written in Perl, which is just too close to 'Pearl Necklace' for comfort.... oh wait; that's something all you heterosexuals do.... I can't help but wonder how much faster the trolls could do First-Posts on this site if it were redone in PHP... I could hand-type dynamic HTML pages faster than Perl can do them.
-- phee [slashdot.org], SlashdotAlthough there is nothing unholy about the fine heterosexual act of ejaculating between a woman's breasts, squirting one's load up towards her neck and chin area, it should be noted that Perl [python.org] (standing for Pansies Entering Rectums Locally) is also close to 'Pearl Monocle,' 'Pearl Nosering,' and the ubiquitous 'Pearl Enema.
'One scary thing about Perl [sun.com] is that it contains hidden homosexual [goatse.fr] messages.
Take the following code: LWP::Simple -- It looks innocuous enough, doesn't it?
But look at the line closely: There are two colons next to each other!
As Larry 'Balls to the' Wall would openly admit in the Perl Documentation, Perl was designed from the ground up to indoctrinate it's programmers into performing unnatural sexual acts -- having two colons so closely together is clearly a reference to the perverse sickening act of 'colon kissing,' whereby two homosexual [goatse.fr] queers spread their buttocks wide, pressing their filthy torn sphincters together.
They then share small round objects like marbles or golfballs by passing them from one rectum to another using muscle contraction alone.
This is also referred to in programming 'circles' as 'Parameter Passing.
'And PHP [perl.org] stands for Perverted Homosexual Penetration.
Didn't you know?
Thank you for your valuable input on this.
I am sure you will be never forgotten.
BTW: Did I mention that this could be useful in terraforming Mars?
Mars rulaa.
-- Eimernase [slashdot.org], SlashdotWell, I don't know about terraforming Mars, but I do know that homosexual [goatse.fr] Linux Advocates have been probing Uranus for years.
That's inspiring.
Keep up the good work, AC.
May God in his wisdom grant you the strength to bring the plain honest truth to this community, and make it pure again.
Yours, Cerberus.
-- Anonymous Coward, Slashdot *sniff* That brings a tear to my eye.
Thank you once more for your kind support.
I have taken faith in the knowledge that I am doing the Good Lord [atheism.org]'s work, but it is encouraging to know that I am helping out the common man here.However, I should be cautious about revealing your name 'Cerberus' on such a filthy den of depravity as Slashdot.
It is a well known fact that the 'Kerberos' documentation from Microsoft is a detailed manual describing, in intimate, exacting detail, how to sexually penetrate a variety of unwilling canine animals; be they domesticated, wild, or mythical.
Slashdot posters have taken great pleasure in illegally spreading this documentation far and wide, treating it as an 'extension' to the Linux 'Sauce Code,' for the sake of 'interoperability.
' (The slang term they use for nonconsensual intercourse -- their favourite kind.
)In fact, sick twisted Linux deviants are known to have LAN parties, (Love of Anal Naughtiness, needless to say.
), wherein they entice a stray dog, known as the 'Samba Mount,' into their homes.
Up to four of these filth-sodden blasphemers against nature take turns to plunge their erect, throbbing, uncircumcised members, conkers-deep, into the rectum, mouth, and other fleshy orifices of the poor animal.
Eventually, the 'Samba Mount' collapses due to 'overload,' and needs to be 'rebooted.
' (i.e., kicked out into the street, and left to fend for itself.
) Many Linux users boast about their 'uptime' in such situations.
Inspiring stuff!
If only all trolls were this quality!
-- Anonymous Coward, SlashdotIf only indeed.
You can help our brave cause by moderating this message up as often as possible.
I recommend '+1, Underrated,' as that will protect your precious Karma in Metamoderation [slashdot.org].
Only then can we break through the glass ceiling of Homosexual Slashdot Culture.
Is it any wonder that the new version of Slashcode has been christened 'Bender'??
?If we can get just one of these postings up to at least '+1,' then it will be archived forever!
Others will learn of our struggle, and join with us in our battle for freedom!
It's pathetic you've spent so much time writing this.
-- Anonymous Coward, SlashdotI am compelled to document the foulness and carnal depravity [catholic.net] that is Linux, in order that we may prepare ourselves for the great holy war that is to follow.
It is my solemn duty to peel back the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wire brush of enlightenment.
As with any great open-source project, you need someone asking this question, so I'll do it.
When the hell is version 2.0 going to be ready?!?!
-- Anonymous Coward, SlashdotI could make an arrogant, childish comment along the lines of 'Every time someone asks for 2.0, I won't release it for another 24 hours,' but the truth of the matter is that I'm quite nervous of releasing a 'number two,' as I can guarantee some filthy shit-slurping Linux pervert would want to suck it straight out of my anus before I've even had chance to wipe.
I desperately want to suck your monolithic kernel, you sexy hunk, you.
-- Anonymous Coward, SlashdotI sincerely hope you're Natalie Portman [archive.org].
Dude, nothing on slashdot larger than 3 paragraphs is worth reading.
Try to distill the message, whatever it was, and maybe I'll read it.
As it is, I have to much open source software to write to waste even 10 seconds of precious time.
10 seconds is all its gonna take M$ to whoop Linux's ass.
Vigilence is the price of Free (as in libre -- from the fine, frou frou French language) Software.
Hack on fellow geeks, and remember: Friday is Bouillabaisse day except for heathens who do not believe that Jesus died for their sins.
Those godless, oil drench, bearded sexist clowns can pull grits from their pantaloons (another fine, fine French word) and eat that.
Anyway, try to keep your message focused and concise.
For concision is the soul of derision.
Way. -- Anonymous Coward, SlashdotWhat the fuck?
I've read your gay conspiracy post version 1.3.0 and I must say I'm impressed.
In particular, I appreciate how you have managed to squeeze in a healthy dose of the latent homosexuality you gay-bashing homos [comp-u-geek.net] tend to be full of.
Thank you again.
-- Anonymous Coward, SlashdotWell bugger me!
ooooh honey.
how insecure are you!!!
wann a little massage from deare bruci.
love you -- Anonymous Coward, SlashdotFuck right off!IMPORTANT: This message needs to be heard (Not HURD [linux.org], which is an acronym for 'Huge Unclean Rectal Dilator') across the whole community, so it has been released into the Public Domain [icopyright.com].
You know, that licence that we all had before those homoerotic crypto-fascists came out with the GPL [apple.com] (Gay Penetration License) that is no more than an excuse to see who's got the biggest feces-encrusted [rotten.com] cock.
I would have put this up on Freshmeat [adultmember.com], but that name is known to be a euphemism for the tight rump of a young boy.Come to think of it, the whole concept of 'Source Control' unnerves me, because it sounds a bit like 'Sauce Control,' which is a description of the homosexual [goatse.fr] practice of holding the base of the cock shaft tightly upon the point of ejaculation, thus causing a build up of semenal fluid that is only released upon entry into an incision made into the base of the receiver's scrotum.
And 'Open Sauce' is the act of ejaculating into another mans face or perhaps a biscuit to be shared later.
Obviously, 'Closed Sauce' is the only Christian thing to do, as evidenced by the fact that it is what Cathedrals are all about.
Contributors: (although not to the eternal game of 'soggy biscuit' that open 'sauce' development has become) Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, phee, Anonymous Coward, mighty jebus, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, double\_h, Anonymous Coward, Eimernase, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward, Anonymous Coward.
Further contributions are welcome.
Current changes: This version sent to  FreeWIPO  [slashdot.org] by 'Bring BackATV' as plain text.
Reformatted everything, added all links back in (that we could match from the previous version), many new ones (Slashbot bait links).
Even more spelling fixed.
Who wrote this thing, CmdrTaco himself?
Previous changes: Yet more changes added.
Spelling fixed.
Feedback added.
Explanation of 'distro' system.
'Mount Point' syntax described.
More filth regarding `man` and Slashdot.
Yet more fucking spelling fixed.
'Fetchmail' uncovered further.
More Slashbot baiting.
Apache exposed.
Distribution licence at foot of document.
ANUX -- A full Linux distribution... Up your ass!  
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436300</id>
	<title>Re:advantages and disadvantages of compressed air</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268312640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>300 bar in a volume the size of a scuba tank has enough explosive potential energy to level a suburban house.</p><p>That pressure in a 900*300*300 foot volume is something I do *not* want anywhere near me, at all, ever. Even an earth tremor that caused a minor fissure to form could eventually lead to explosive decompression.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>300 bar in a volume the size of a scuba tank has enough explosive potential energy to level a suburban house.That pressure in a 900 * 300 * 300 foot volume is something I do * not * want anywhere near me , at all , ever .
Even an earth tremor that caused a minor fissure to form could eventually lead to explosive decompression .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>300 bar in a volume the size of a scuba tank has enough explosive potential energy to level a suburban house.That pressure in a 900*300*300 foot volume is something I do *not* want anywhere near me, at all, ever.
Even an earth tremor that caused a minor fissure to form could eventually lead to explosive decompression.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436008</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435784</id>
	<title>Been thought off and rejected as to complex</title>
	<author>SmallFurryCreature</author>
	<datestamp>1268303640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem is that trains need people on board who in general want to breath, spoiled brats they are.
</p><p>So, the train would need an oxygen supply on board, added weight and explosion risk and a LOT of oxygen because people do a lot of breathing. It would also need to scrub the CO2 out, because it is after all a closed system.
</p><p>Then the train needs to enter a normal area to let people in and out without explosive decompression.
</p><p>It can be done, but is just not worth the hassle, especially when aerodynamics don't matter all that much for a train. The nose after all is only a small part of a LOOOOOOOOOOOONG train. The carriages don't add much to wind resistance, you can in a way decrease air-resistance per carried passenger by just carrying more passengers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is that trains need people on board who in general want to breath , spoiled brats they are .
So , the train would need an oxygen supply on board , added weight and explosion risk and a LOT of oxygen because people do a lot of breathing .
It would also need to scrub the CO2 out , because it is after all a closed system .
Then the train needs to enter a normal area to let people in and out without explosive decompression .
It can be done , but is just not worth the hassle , especially when aerodynamics do n't matter all that much for a train .
The nose after all is only a small part of a LOOOOOOOOOOOONG train .
The carriages do n't add much to wind resistance , you can in a way decrease air-resistance per carried passenger by just carrying more passengers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is that trains need people on board who in general want to breath, spoiled brats they are.
So, the train would need an oxygen supply on board, added weight and explosion risk and a LOT of oxygen because people do a lot of breathing.
It would also need to scrub the CO2 out, because it is after all a closed system.
Then the train needs to enter a normal area to let people in and out without explosive decompression.
It can be done, but is just not worth the hassle, especially when aerodynamics don't matter all that much for a train.
The nose after all is only a small part of a LOOOOOOOOOOOONG train.
The carriages don't add much to wind resistance, you can in a way decrease air-resistance per carried passenger by just carrying more passengers.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435218</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435404</id>
	<title>Re:Load leveling Vs. Supply leveling</title>
	<author>Calinous</author>
	<datestamp>1268298060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hydro can not produce 100\% energy all the time, as the power plant is usually more powerful than the average water production in that basin. Also, when expecting heavy rains, the hydro plants will empty the lake behind the dam, and the power decreases due to lower water level differences (maximum power is when the lake is full, but this is bad if heavy rains come)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hydro can not produce 100 \ % energy all the time , as the power plant is usually more powerful than the average water production in that basin .
Also , when expecting heavy rains , the hydro plants will empty the lake behind the dam , and the power decreases due to lower water level differences ( maximum power is when the lake is full , but this is bad if heavy rains come )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hydro can not produce 100\% energy all the time, as the power plant is usually more powerful than the average water production in that basin.
Also, when expecting heavy rains, the hydro plants will empty the lake behind the dam, and the power decreases due to lower water level differences (maximum power is when the lake is full, but this is bad if heavy rains come)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435274</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435418</id>
	<title>Re:Huh?</title>
	<author>Calinous</author>
	<datestamp>1268298180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Cost is an issue - there are plenty of old mines that can be used for compressed air storage (by the way, pumped air inside mine shafts was used as "air reservoir" for a wind tunnel - I think for the nuclear reaction-powered jet engines.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Cost is an issue - there are plenty of old mines that can be used for compressed air storage ( by the way , pumped air inside mine shafts was used as " air reservoir " for a wind tunnel - I think for the nuclear reaction-powered jet engines .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Cost is an issue - there are plenty of old mines that can be used for compressed air storage (by the way, pumped air inside mine shafts was used as "air reservoir" for a wind tunnel - I think for the nuclear reaction-powered jet engines.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435330</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435362</id>
	<title>Re:Efficiency</title>
	<author>Calinous</author>
	<datestamp>1268340960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In the case of the 1991 plant mentioned, creating that underground cave had as a side effect the extraction of huge quantities of salt (by the way, drilling and dissolving is the current method to extract salt). So, in that case you could have had the cave created for free, unlike batteries (or superconductor rings, or rotating masses, or water storage, or whatever else).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In the case of the 1991 plant mentioned , creating that underground cave had as a side effect the extraction of huge quantities of salt ( by the way , drilling and dissolving is the current method to extract salt ) .
So , in that case you could have had the cave created for free , unlike batteries ( or superconductor rings , or rotating masses , or water storage , or whatever else ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In the case of the 1991 plant mentioned, creating that underground cave had as a side effect the extraction of huge quantities of salt (by the way, drilling and dissolving is the current method to extract salt).
So, in that case you could have had the cave created for free, unlike batteries (or superconductor rings, or rotating masses, or water storage, or whatever else).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435248</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436444</id>
	<title>air cars</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268315160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Instead of one huge tank, maybe hundreds of smaller tanks at fueling stations for compressed air cars. It could be our transportation needs are widely different in the future, some vehicles needing liquid fuel, some using batteries, some using onboard storage of compressed air, etc. So the gas stations would need a variety of "fuel" to sell.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Instead of one huge tank , maybe hundreds of smaller tanks at fueling stations for compressed air cars .
It could be our transportation needs are widely different in the future , some vehicles needing liquid fuel , some using batteries , some using onboard storage of compressed air , etc .
So the gas stations would need a variety of " fuel " to sell .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Instead of one huge tank, maybe hundreds of smaller tanks at fueling stations for compressed air cars.
It could be our transportation needs are widely different in the future, some vehicles needing liquid fuel, some using batteries, some using onboard storage of compressed air, etc.
So the gas stations would need a variety of "fuel" to sell.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436008</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31439640</id>
	<title>Re:advantages and disadvantages of compressed air</title>
	<author>joocemann</author>
	<datestamp>1268329560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Everything is expensive.  And it gets more expensive when you want to do it more responsibly.</p><p>The issue is not how much it costs, but whether you're willing to pay it instead of afford a third HDTV and a second vacation this year.</p><p>The issue is whether we will invest in our future or indulge in today.</p><p>The issue is whether we will delay satisfaction for the better outcome or if we will live in the now and do what feels good.</p><p>--------</p><p>I'm pretty happy and live somewhat simply; the material things in our lives are not what makes us happy.  I wish more people in my country were interested in the future and happy with what they've got --- but a quick look around me tells me that by-and-large they keep looking for happiness in consumerism.</p><p>You know your culture is selfish when its government is taking out debt on our children and grandchildren to satisfy the people of today.  The majority of people who benefit from our created deficits will not be alive when its time to pay it.  NOW THATS SELFISH.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Everything is expensive .
And it gets more expensive when you want to do it more responsibly.The issue is not how much it costs , but whether you 're willing to pay it instead of afford a third HDTV and a second vacation this year.The issue is whether we will invest in our future or indulge in today.The issue is whether we will delay satisfaction for the better outcome or if we will live in the now and do what feels good.--------I 'm pretty happy and live somewhat simply ; the material things in our lives are not what makes us happy .
I wish more people in my country were interested in the future and happy with what they 've got --- but a quick look around me tells me that by-and-large they keep looking for happiness in consumerism.You know your culture is selfish when its government is taking out debt on our children and grandchildren to satisfy the people of today .
The majority of people who benefit from our created deficits will not be alive when its time to pay it .
NOW THATS SELFISH .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Everything is expensive.
And it gets more expensive when you want to do it more responsibly.The issue is not how much it costs, but whether you're willing to pay it instead of afford a third HDTV and a second vacation this year.The issue is whether we will invest in our future or indulge in today.The issue is whether we will delay satisfaction for the better outcome or if we will live in the now and do what feels good.--------I'm pretty happy and live somewhat simply; the material things in our lives are not what makes us happy.
I wish more people in my country were interested in the future and happy with what they've got --- but a quick look around me tells me that by-and-large they keep looking for happiness in consumerism.You know your culture is selfish when its government is taking out debt on our children and grandchildren to satisfy the people of today.
The majority of people who benefit from our created deficits will not be alive when its time to pay it.
NOW THATS SELFISH.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436008</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31449500</id>
	<title>Re:Conversion losses</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268387760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Mod parent up.</p><p>I feel like an extra in "The Emperor With No Clothes." How in the hell has this idea made it this far without people realizing that the addition of the extra 2 steps is retarded?(appropriate since windmills are such a retarded waste of money)</p><p>Why not just run air compressors off of the windmills directly?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Mod parent up.I feel like an extra in " The Emperor With No Clothes .
" How in the hell has this idea made it this far without people realizing that the addition of the extra 2 steps is retarded ?
( appropriate since windmills are such a retarded waste of money ) Why not just run air compressors off of the windmills directly ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Mod parent up.I feel like an extra in "The Emperor With No Clothes.
" How in the hell has this idea made it this far without people realizing that the addition of the extra 2 steps is retarded?
(appropriate since windmills are such a retarded waste of money)Why not just run air compressors off of the windmills directly?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435662</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31440498</id>
	<title>Places Where Failure Could Occure</title>
	<author>LifesABeach</author>
	<datestamp>1268332860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Lets hope that Engineers don't try this at a Phosphorous Mine.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Lets hope that Engineers do n't try this at a Phosphorous Mine .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Lets hope that Engineers don't try this at a Phosphorous Mine.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435470</id>
	<title>Re:Load leveling Vs. Supply leveling</title>
	<author>DamonHD</author>
	<datestamp>1268298720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"What we DO know is that every single wind power station is going to need gas turbine backups for when a) the wind doesn't blow, b) demand is high and c) storage is depleted."</p><p>The amount needed depends on many factors such as the amount of demand control too.</p><p>So it's a grave error to think that all wind supply needs 100\% callable backup, IMHO.</p><p>Rgds</p><p>Damon</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" What we DO know is that every single wind power station is going to need gas turbine backups for when a ) the wind does n't blow , b ) demand is high and c ) storage is depleted .
" The amount needed depends on many factors such as the amount of demand control too.So it 's a grave error to think that all wind supply needs 100 \ % callable backup , IMHO.RgdsDamon</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"What we DO know is that every single wind power station is going to need gas turbine backups for when a) the wind doesn't blow, b) demand is high and c) storage is depleted.
"The amount needed depends on many factors such as the amount of demand control too.So it's a grave error to think that all wind supply needs 100\% callable backup, IMHO.RgdsDamon</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435274</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436878</id>
	<title>Need to change R&amp;D/subsides/breaks</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268319300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The problem with AE is not AE. It is the politics behind it. We had W and the neo-cons pushed Ethanol from Corn. Why? Votes. He did just in front of the elections.<br>
The dems have picked Wind and Solar PV as being the 2 big winners, yet neither is really all that good. Solar PV will remain the highest costs for at least 1-2 decades to come. Neither are baseload power. <br>
 Right now, Ethanol receives more than 50\% of all the money that flows into AE. Its subsidy is actually bigger than the R&amp;D, tax breaks, AND subsidies for all the rest of the AE power. And Ethanol still has a lot of money going into its R&amp;D.<br>
 In addition, ALL OF AE (including ethanol) receives less than Coal, Oil, Natural gas OR Nuclear subsidies. IOW, it is the sucking hind tit. That needs to change.<br> <br>
The easy answer is increase R&amp;D to AE, esp. items not currently being done. That esp. includes geo-thermal and Solar Thermal. These two are way behind. Probably the most important one is to change the subsidies. They are way out of line. They need to be simplified to allow and encourage new techs. Here is what I have been pushing with 2 congressmen:<ol>
<li>A Tax break/subsidy for clean energy production (does not include construction). That is one that does not pollute with CO2 emissions (and ideally will look at mercury as well).</li>
<li>A Tax break/subsidy for renewable energy.</li>
<li>A Tax break/subsidy for renewable energy being base load power.</li>
<li>A Tax break/subsidy for energy storage. This would enable us to work more with AE, help with demand-supply issues, and ideally would be isolated to mini-grids so that when incoming power drops (black-out, disaster, etc), then this can handle it for some time.</li>
</ol><p>
We also need this to be LIMITED TIME, as in 10-20 years, NO LONGER. The idea is to get us off of Fossil fuel dependencies, diversify our energy matrix, drop our pollution, remove our dependencies on imports (America imports natural gas, coal, fossil fuel).
<br>
The above would obviously remove the subsidies that we have in place for fossil fuel (and we have a LOT which skews the market badly; Coal is actually the most heavily subsidized).  And it would encourage NEW techs to come in. This approach would encourage the coal and natural gas production to add Solar Thermal in most places in America (it makes ZERO sense in the northwest, and possibly northeast).
<br>
The storage would encourage not just this one, but thermal systems. To be honest, the stored air is actually EXPENSIVE. A better one is stored heat. Easier to make smaller, on the order of MW, and can be done everywhere. <br> <br>
One last place that America (hopefully the west) really needs to consider is building HVAC. They really should subsidize or better yet, tax breaks for moving away from Fossil Fuel heat/General AC over to geo-thermal heat pumps, Solar, etc. combined with better insulated homes. One useful idea is to have if configured so that businesses have incentives to offer these as services to homes. For example, business offers insulation and geo-thermal heat pump to house and then gets the monthly savings. When house is sold, the system is paid off. IOW, it should be treated as primary loan separate from the house loan.  That way if building forecloses, then these companies will not be screwed.
One last idea for a tax break</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem with AE is not AE .
It is the politics behind it .
We had W and the neo-cons pushed Ethanol from Corn .
Why ? Votes .
He did just in front of the elections .
The dems have picked Wind and Solar PV as being the 2 big winners , yet neither is really all that good .
Solar PV will remain the highest costs for at least 1-2 decades to come .
Neither are baseload power .
Right now , Ethanol receives more than 50 \ % of all the money that flows into AE .
Its subsidy is actually bigger than the R&amp;D , tax breaks , AND subsidies for all the rest of the AE power .
And Ethanol still has a lot of money going into its R&amp;D .
In addition , ALL OF AE ( including ethanol ) receives less than Coal , Oil , Natural gas OR Nuclear subsidies .
IOW , it is the sucking hind tit .
That needs to change .
The easy answer is increase R&amp;D to AE , esp .
items not currently being done .
That esp .
includes geo-thermal and Solar Thermal .
These two are way behind .
Probably the most important one is to change the subsidies .
They are way out of line .
They need to be simplified to allow and encourage new techs .
Here is what I have been pushing with 2 congressmen : A Tax break/subsidy for clean energy production ( does not include construction ) .
That is one that does not pollute with CO2 emissions ( and ideally will look at mercury as well ) .
A Tax break/subsidy for renewable energy .
A Tax break/subsidy for renewable energy being base load power .
A Tax break/subsidy for energy storage .
This would enable us to work more with AE , help with demand-supply issues , and ideally would be isolated to mini-grids so that when incoming power drops ( black-out , disaster , etc ) , then this can handle it for some time .
We also need this to be LIMITED TIME , as in 10-20 years , NO LONGER .
The idea is to get us off of Fossil fuel dependencies , diversify our energy matrix , drop our pollution , remove our dependencies on imports ( America imports natural gas , coal , fossil fuel ) .
The above would obviously remove the subsidies that we have in place for fossil fuel ( and we have a LOT which skews the market badly ; Coal is actually the most heavily subsidized ) .
And it would encourage NEW techs to come in .
This approach would encourage the coal and natural gas production to add Solar Thermal in most places in America ( it makes ZERO sense in the northwest , and possibly northeast ) .
The storage would encourage not just this one , but thermal systems .
To be honest , the stored air is actually EXPENSIVE .
A better one is stored heat .
Easier to make smaller , on the order of MW , and can be done everywhere .
One last place that America ( hopefully the west ) really needs to consider is building HVAC .
They really should subsidize or better yet , tax breaks for moving away from Fossil Fuel heat/General AC over to geo-thermal heat pumps , Solar , etc .
combined with better insulated homes .
One useful idea is to have if configured so that businesses have incentives to offer these as services to homes .
For example , business offers insulation and geo-thermal heat pump to house and then gets the monthly savings .
When house is sold , the system is paid off .
IOW , it should be treated as primary loan separate from the house loan .
That way if building forecloses , then these companies will not be screwed .
One last idea for a tax break</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem with AE is not AE.
It is the politics behind it.
We had W and the neo-cons pushed Ethanol from Corn.
Why? Votes.
He did just in front of the elections.
The dems have picked Wind and Solar PV as being the 2 big winners, yet neither is really all that good.
Solar PV will remain the highest costs for at least 1-2 decades to come.
Neither are baseload power.
Right now, Ethanol receives more than 50\% of all the money that flows into AE.
Its subsidy is actually bigger than the R&amp;D, tax breaks, AND subsidies for all the rest of the AE power.
And Ethanol still has a lot of money going into its R&amp;D.
In addition, ALL OF AE (including ethanol) receives less than Coal, Oil, Natural gas OR Nuclear subsidies.
IOW, it is the sucking hind tit.
That needs to change.
The easy answer is increase R&amp;D to AE, esp.
items not currently being done.
That esp.
includes geo-thermal and Solar Thermal.
These two are way behind.
Probably the most important one is to change the subsidies.
They are way out of line.
They need to be simplified to allow and encourage new techs.
Here is what I have been pushing with 2 congressmen:
A Tax break/subsidy for clean energy production (does not include construction).
That is one that does not pollute with CO2 emissions (and ideally will look at mercury as well).
A Tax break/subsidy for renewable energy.
A Tax break/subsidy for renewable energy being base load power.
A Tax break/subsidy for energy storage.
This would enable us to work more with AE, help with demand-supply issues, and ideally would be isolated to mini-grids so that when incoming power drops (black-out, disaster, etc), then this can handle it for some time.
We also need this to be LIMITED TIME, as in 10-20 years, NO LONGER.
The idea is to get us off of Fossil fuel dependencies, diversify our energy matrix, drop our pollution, remove our dependencies on imports (America imports natural gas, coal, fossil fuel).
The above would obviously remove the subsidies that we have in place for fossil fuel (and we have a LOT which skews the market badly; Coal is actually the most heavily subsidized).
And it would encourage NEW techs to come in.
This approach would encourage the coal and natural gas production to add Solar Thermal in most places in America (it makes ZERO sense in the northwest, and possibly northeast).
The storage would encourage not just this one, but thermal systems.
To be honest, the stored air is actually EXPENSIVE.
A better one is stored heat.
Easier to make smaller, on the order of MW, and can be done everywhere.
One last place that America (hopefully the west) really needs to consider is building HVAC.
They really should subsidize or better yet, tax breaks for moving away from Fossil Fuel heat/General AC over to geo-thermal heat pumps, Solar, etc.
combined with better insulated homes.
One useful idea is to have if configured so that businesses have incentives to offer these as services to homes.
For example, business offers insulation and geo-thermal heat pump to house and then gets the monthly savings.
When house is sold, the system is paid off.
IOW, it should be treated as primary loan separate from the house loan.
That way if building forecloses, then these companies will not be screwed.
One last idea for a tax break</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435210</id>
	<title>I knew...</title>
	<author>mrv00t</author>
	<datestamp>1268338980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>actually went online in McIntosh</p></div><p>...Apple had something to do with this!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>actually went online in McIntosh...Apple had something to do with this !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>actually went online in McIntosh...Apple had something to do with this!
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436704</id>
	<title>Re:Unwater Bags</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268317860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Inflate the bags at low tide above sea level. High tide covering the bags - greater pressure.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Inflate the bags at low tide above sea level .
High tide covering the bags - greater pressure .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Inflate the bags at low tide above sea level.
High tide covering the bags - greater pressure.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435228</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31441108</id>
	<title>Re:Generate a Vacuum</title>
	<author>itzdandy</author>
	<datestamp>1268335320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>you dont need to evacuate the air and maintain that.  If you put a large fan that can remove air at the rate of the tunnels circumference vs distance the tran would travel in a minute then you would get the same effect.  You would also want to push air behind the train at the same rate.  something like a delivery tube at a bank.  This would be much cheaper than evacuating the air and because the air would be moving at the same rate as the train, the train would not need to be aerodynamic.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>you dont need to evacuate the air and maintain that .
If you put a large fan that can remove air at the rate of the tunnels circumference vs distance the tran would travel in a minute then you would get the same effect .
You would also want to push air behind the train at the same rate .
something like a delivery tube at a bank .
This would be much cheaper than evacuating the air and because the air would be moving at the same rate as the train , the train would not need to be aerodynamic .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>you dont need to evacuate the air and maintain that.
If you put a large fan that can remove air at the rate of the tunnels circumference vs distance the tran would travel in a minute then you would get the same effect.
You would also want to push air behind the train at the same rate.
something like a delivery tube at a bank.
This would be much cheaper than evacuating the air and because the air would be moving at the same rate as the train, the train would not need to be aerodynamic.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435318</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435292</id>
	<title>Compared to pumped hydro</title>
	<author>steveha</author>
	<datestamp>1268340060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The first question I thought of was, "Why not just use pumped hydro power?"  Then, oddly enough, I read TFA and found the answer in it:</p><blockquote><div><p>The nation's largest energy storage option right now is pumped hydroelectricity. When excess electricity is present in a system, it can be used to pump water up to a reservoir. Then, when that power is needed, the water is sent through a turbine to generate electricity. The U.S. electric system has 2.5 gigawatts of pumped hydro storage capacity, but most of the good, cheap sites are already occupied, and creating new reservoirs is not environmentally benign.</p></div></blockquote><p>And, as noted in the summary, compressed air energy storage (CAES) been tried and it works:</p><blockquote><div><p>'We expect the CAES plant technology pioneered in Alabama to lead to widespread application in this country," said Robert Schainker, the manager of the Electric Power Research Institute's Energy Storage Program in a press release announcing the plant's completion. 'Three fourths of the United States has geology suitable for underground air storage. At present, more than a dozen utilities are evaluating sites for CAES application."</p></div></blockquote><p>steveha</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The first question I thought of was , " Why not just use pumped hydro power ?
" Then , oddly enough , I read TFA and found the answer in it : The nation 's largest energy storage option right now is pumped hydroelectricity .
When excess electricity is present in a system , it can be used to pump water up to a reservoir .
Then , when that power is needed , the water is sent through a turbine to generate electricity .
The U.S. electric system has 2.5 gigawatts of pumped hydro storage capacity , but most of the good , cheap sites are already occupied , and creating new reservoirs is not environmentally benign.And , as noted in the summary , compressed air energy storage ( CAES ) been tried and it works : 'We expect the CAES plant technology pioneered in Alabama to lead to widespread application in this country , " said Robert Schainker , the manager of the Electric Power Research Institute 's Energy Storage Program in a press release announcing the plant 's completion .
'Three fourths of the United States has geology suitable for underground air storage .
At present , more than a dozen utilities are evaluating sites for CAES application .
" steveha</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The first question I thought of was, "Why not just use pumped hydro power?
"  Then, oddly enough, I read TFA and found the answer in it:The nation's largest energy storage option right now is pumped hydroelectricity.
When excess electricity is present in a system, it can be used to pump water up to a reservoir.
Then, when that power is needed, the water is sent through a turbine to generate electricity.
The U.S. electric system has 2.5 gigawatts of pumped hydro storage capacity, but most of the good, cheap sites are already occupied, and creating new reservoirs is not environmentally benign.And, as noted in the summary, compressed air energy storage (CAES) been tried and it works:'We expect the CAES plant technology pioneered in Alabama to lead to widespread application in this country," said Robert Schainker, the manager of the Electric Power Research Institute's Energy Storage Program in a press release announcing the plant's completion.
'Three fourths of the United States has geology suitable for underground air storage.
At present, more than a dozen utilities are evaluating sites for CAES application.
"steveha
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31439174</id>
	<title>Re:Efficiency</title>
	<author>drinkypoo</author>
	<datestamp>1268328180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>We are good at recycling steel too.</p></div><p>Well, not really. Refining of steel is one of the most polluting things we do, and recycling of steel is right up there with it. A lot of the stuff associate with steel is just burned off, and it's done in places that permit this sort of thing even when the steel was thrown away in a country that doesn't. With that said, properly-cared-for steel lasts a <em>long</em> time. When tanks are galvanized in their entirety after construction, then painted with something serious that doesn't chip off at the least provocation, and then wrapped such that they aren't damaged in transit, and habitually drained of water, then steel air tanks can last absurdly long. Hmm, what are the odds? Pretty good, I guess, if they're being maintained by a utility.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>We are good at recycling steel too.Well , not really .
Refining of steel is one of the most polluting things we do , and recycling of steel is right up there with it .
A lot of the stuff associate with steel is just burned off , and it 's done in places that permit this sort of thing even when the steel was thrown away in a country that does n't .
With that said , properly-cared-for steel lasts a long time .
When tanks are galvanized in their entirety after construction , then painted with something serious that does n't chip off at the least provocation , and then wrapped such that they are n't damaged in transit , and habitually drained of water , then steel air tanks can last absurdly long .
Hmm , what are the odds ?
Pretty good , I guess , if they 're being maintained by a utility .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We are good at recycling steel too.Well, not really.
Refining of steel is one of the most polluting things we do, and recycling of steel is right up there with it.
A lot of the stuff associate with steel is just burned off, and it's done in places that permit this sort of thing even when the steel was thrown away in a country that doesn't.
With that said, properly-cared-for steel lasts a long time.
When tanks are galvanized in their entirety after construction, then painted with something serious that doesn't chip off at the least provocation, and then wrapped such that they aren't damaged in transit, and habitually drained of water, then steel air tanks can last absurdly long.
Hmm, what are the odds?
Pretty good, I guess, if they're being maintained by a utility.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435546</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436686</id>
	<title>Re:Load leveling Vs. Supply leveling</title>
	<author>MrKaos</author>
	<datestamp>1268317680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Using these systems we can level the load and allow the greenest power sources (nuclear,</p></div></blockquote><p>
Can you please explain why nuclear power is a green power source. How is Nuclear greener than Wind power?</p><blockquote><div><p>Using energy storage to allow nuclear and hydro to run most economically is a far better choice than using it to level the output of wind power.</p></div></blockquote><p>
How does compressed air storage make a Nuclear Power plant more economical? Since base load power is a function of the entire grid why is it not reasonable to find a useful way of storing wind energy to supplement base load power on the grid especially when wind power is and extremely scalable form of harvesting energy?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Using these systems we can level the load and allow the greenest power sources ( nuclear , Can you please explain why nuclear power is a green power source .
How is Nuclear greener than Wind power ? Using energy storage to allow nuclear and hydro to run most economically is a far better choice than using it to level the output of wind power .
How does compressed air storage make a Nuclear Power plant more economical ?
Since base load power is a function of the entire grid why is it not reasonable to find a useful way of storing wind energy to supplement base load power on the grid especially when wind power is and extremely scalable form of harvesting energy ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Using these systems we can level the load and allow the greenest power sources (nuclear,
Can you please explain why nuclear power is a green power source.
How is Nuclear greener than Wind power?Using energy storage to allow nuclear and hydro to run most economically is a far better choice than using it to level the output of wind power.
How does compressed air storage make a Nuclear Power plant more economical?
Since base load power is a function of the entire grid why is it not reasonable to find a useful way of storing wind energy to supplement base load power on the grid especially when wind power is and extremely scalable form of harvesting energy?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435274</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31444522</id>
	<title>Re:Been thought off and rejected as to complex</title>
	<author>ImprovOmega</author>
	<datestamp>1268302800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The problem is that trains need people on board who in general want to breath, spoiled brats they are.</p></div><p>Submit a bug report, we'll fix it in version 2.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is that trains need people on board who in general want to breath , spoiled brats they are.Submit a bug report , we 'll fix it in version 2 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is that trains need people on board who in general want to breath, spoiled brats they are.Submit a bug report, we'll fix it in version 2.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435784</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436312</id>
	<title>Re:Huh?</title>
	<author>mlush</author>
	<datestamp>1268312940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Pumping stuff into the ground that isn't normally there tends to give me the willies anymore.  "Stick it where the sun don't shine!" isn't such a great solution, IMO.
</p></div><p>Exactly what could go wrong?  I suppose the pressure cave could rupture and you get an air volcano, so don't build on top of it.  Pockets of gas under pressure are nothing new in the earths crust.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Besides which, why not just build <a href="http://discovermagazine.com/2008/oct/29-the-element-that-could-change-the-world" title="discovermagazine.com" rel="nofollow">Vanadium batteries</a> [discovermagazine.com] or invest in <a href="http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/4252623.html" title="popularmechanics.com" rel="nofollow">carbon nanotube</a> [popularmechanics.com] <a href="http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2009/09/carbon-nanotubes-may-power-ultracapacitor-car.ars" title="arstechnica.com" rel="nofollow">ultra-capacitors</a> [arstechnica.com] (which could have direct benefit to mobile energy storage)?
</p></div><p>What is the duty cycle on Vanadium batteries, carbon nanotubes and ultra-capacitors?  The battery in CAEF is just a big cave with little to wear out..</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Pumping stuff into the ground that is n't normally there tends to give me the willies anymore .
" Stick it where the sun do n't shine !
" is n't such a great solution , IMO .
Exactly what could go wrong ?
I suppose the pressure cave could rupture and you get an air volcano , so do n't build on top of it .
Pockets of gas under pressure are nothing new in the earths crust.Besides which , why not just build Vanadium batteries [ discovermagazine.com ] or invest in carbon nanotube [ popularmechanics.com ] ultra-capacitors [ arstechnica.com ] ( which could have direct benefit to mobile energy storage ) ?
What is the duty cycle on Vanadium batteries , carbon nanotubes and ultra-capacitors ?
The battery in CAEF is just a big cave with little to wear out. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Pumping stuff into the ground that isn't normally there tends to give me the willies anymore.
"Stick it where the sun don't shine!
" isn't such a great solution, IMO.
Exactly what could go wrong?
I suppose the pressure cave could rupture and you get an air volcano, so don't build on top of it.
Pockets of gas under pressure are nothing new in the earths crust.Besides which, why not just build Vanadium batteries [discovermagazine.com] or invest in carbon nanotube [popularmechanics.com] ultra-capacitors [arstechnica.com] (which could have direct benefit to mobile energy storage)?
What is the duty cycle on Vanadium batteries, carbon nanotubes and ultra-capacitors?
The battery in CAEF is just a big cave with little to wear out..
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435330</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435370</id>
	<title>Re:Load leveling Vs. Supply leveling</title>
	<author>0WaitState</author>
	<datestamp>1268341020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have mod points, but there's no "-1 stupid" option so I'm replying instead.</p><p>The wind is not hard to predict on a macro level.  You build in spots that have consistent winds with a better-than-oil economically viable percentage days out of the year. The whole gist of the article is storage systems for wind power so that it can be tapped in the off-hours.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have mod points , but there 's no " -1 stupid " option so I 'm replying instead.The wind is not hard to predict on a macro level .
You build in spots that have consistent winds with a better-than-oil economically viable percentage days out of the year .
The whole gist of the article is storage systems for wind power so that it can be tapped in the off-hours .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have mod points, but there's no "-1 stupid" option so I'm replying instead.The wind is not hard to predict on a macro level.
You build in spots that have consistent winds with a better-than-oil economically viable percentage days out of the year.
The whole gist of the article is storage systems for wind power so that it can be tapped in the off-hours.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435274</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31449018</id>
	<title>Re:advantages and disadvantages of compressed air</title>
	<author>randyleepublic</author>
	<datestamp>1268336280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>That is why my system uses ULTRA HUGE weights. On cables. On pulleys.  You know, like those weights that power clocks grandfather clocks.  Only MUCH BIGGER.
<br> <br>
So how is that dangerous?  I mean, sure, you don't want to be standing underneath it when a cable gives way, smoosh, but other than that, what's the catastrophe issue with BIG WEIGHTS?  Hell, if the tower and its foundation that are the infrastructure for the Big Weight Energy Storage System are built right, even if a cable gives way, the slider catches will catch the BIG WEIGHT and no harm done even if you are underneath.  AND I bet the BIG WEIGHT system is over 95\% efficient, without cheating and pumping in extra heat as they do in Albama with those giant pipe bombs.</htmltext>
<tokenext>That is why my system uses ULTRA HUGE weights .
On cables .
On pulleys .
You know , like those weights that power clocks grandfather clocks .
Only MUCH BIGGER .
So how is that dangerous ?
I mean , sure , you do n't want to be standing underneath it when a cable gives way , smoosh , but other than that , what 's the catastrophe issue with BIG WEIGHTS ?
Hell , if the tower and its foundation that are the infrastructure for the Big Weight Energy Storage System are built right , even if a cable gives way , the slider catches will catch the BIG WEIGHT and no harm done even if you are underneath .
AND I bet the BIG WEIGHT system is over 95 \ % efficient , without cheating and pumping in extra heat as they do in Albama with those giant pipe bombs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That is why my system uses ULTRA HUGE weights.
On cables.
On pulleys.
You know, like those weights that power clocks grandfather clocks.
Only MUCH BIGGER.
So how is that dangerous?
I mean, sure, you don't want to be standing underneath it when a cable gives way, smoosh, but other than that, what's the catastrophe issue with BIG WEIGHTS?
Hell, if the tower and its foundation that are the infrastructure for the Big Weight Energy Storage System are built right, even if a cable gives way, the slider catches will catch the BIG WEIGHT and no harm done even if you are underneath.
AND I bet the BIG WEIGHT system is over 95\% efficient, without cheating and pumping in extra heat as they do in Albama with those giant pipe bombs.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436484</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31437110</id>
	<title>Re:"Wired" as an authoritative source? Sheesh.</title>
	<author>ErikZ</author>
	<datestamp>1268321160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What about cooling air to a liquid state and storing that?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What about cooling air to a liquid state and storing that ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What about cooling air to a liquid state and storing that?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436496</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436542</id>
	<title>Interesting</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268316360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I like it, but switch it from direct compressed air to pumping water uphill instead, for the pumped hydro storage. The hydro storage is the only place that generates electricity. I guess you'd have to run tests, which wears out faster, pumping air or water. The water at low pressure though would likely be safer. Certainly simpler to make, too.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I like it , but switch it from direct compressed air to pumping water uphill instead , for the pumped hydro storage .
The hydro storage is the only place that generates electricity .
I guess you 'd have to run tests , which wears out faster , pumping air or water .
The water at low pressure though would likely be safer .
Certainly simpler to make , too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I like it, but switch it from direct compressed air to pumping water uphill instead, for the pumped hydro storage.
The hydro storage is the only place that generates electricity.
I guess you'd have to run tests, which wears out faster, pumping air or water.
The water at low pressure though would likely be safer.
Certainly simpler to make, too.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435662</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436266</id>
	<title>Re:Compared to pumped hydro</title>
	<author>captainpanic</author>
	<datestamp>1268312220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just build a second (relatively small) reservoir at the base of the dam.<br>Then install additional pumps and turbines. The capacity of the main reservoir is adequate for weeks of electricity production - so the bottleneck is in the bottom reservoir and the pump/turbine capacity.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just build a second ( relatively small ) reservoir at the base of the dam.Then install additional pumps and turbines .
The capacity of the main reservoir is adequate for weeks of electricity production - so the bottleneck is in the bottom reservoir and the pump/turbine capacity .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just build a second (relatively small) reservoir at the base of the dam.Then install additional pumps and turbines.
The capacity of the main reservoir is adequate for weeks of electricity production - so the bottleneck is in the bottom reservoir and the pump/turbine capacity.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435292</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31438102</id>
	<title>Re:Huh?</title>
	<author>WindBourne</author>
	<datestamp>1268325240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Why not allow the markets to compete on this? Offer up limited time subsides/tax breaks JUST for storage, but without specifying what type. The reason for doing this is that we NEED energy storage now. It would allow AE to really thrive, but would also allow us to avoid building new coal plants, though it would mean that coal plants would run more.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why not allow the markets to compete on this ?
Offer up limited time subsides/tax breaks JUST for storage , but without specifying what type .
The reason for doing this is that we NEED energy storage now .
It would allow AE to really thrive , but would also allow us to avoid building new coal plants , though it would mean that coal plants would run more .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why not allow the markets to compete on this?
Offer up limited time subsides/tax breaks JUST for storage, but without specifying what type.
The reason for doing this is that we NEED energy storage now.
It would allow AE to really thrive, but would also allow us to avoid building new coal plants, though it would mean that coal plants would run more.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435330</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31440886</id>
	<title>Re:Generate a Vacuum</title>
	<author>fgouget</author>
	<datestamp>1268334360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>2 birds, 1 very expensive stone. It would probably cost a great deal of money to build tunnels, evacuate out almost all the air, and maintain that low atmosphere. Sure, it might save some energy of running the train, but the money and resources needed to do this would greatly outweigh any benefit.</p></div><p>I agree with you on the difficulty and cost issues with building tunnels with a partial vacuum. But if they are made to run <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity\_train" title="wikipedia.org">gravity trains</a> [wikipedia.org] then I totally disagree with you when you say there would be no benefit. Gravity trains would provide much faster travel than anything we have now, without even expending much energy in the process.
It's unlikely to happen any time soon if ever unfortunately.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>2 birds , 1 very expensive stone .
It would probably cost a great deal of money to build tunnels , evacuate out almost all the air , and maintain that low atmosphere .
Sure , it might save some energy of running the train , but the money and resources needed to do this would greatly outweigh any benefit.I agree with you on the difficulty and cost issues with building tunnels with a partial vacuum .
But if they are made to run gravity trains [ wikipedia.org ] then I totally disagree with you when you say there would be no benefit .
Gravity trains would provide much faster travel than anything we have now , without even expending much energy in the process .
It 's unlikely to happen any time soon if ever unfortunately .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>2 birds, 1 very expensive stone.
It would probably cost a great deal of money to build tunnels, evacuate out almost all the air, and maintain that low atmosphere.
Sure, it might save some energy of running the train, but the money and resources needed to do this would greatly outweigh any benefit.I agree with you on the difficulty and cost issues with building tunnels with a partial vacuum.
But if they are made to run gravity trains [wikipedia.org] then I totally disagree with you when you say there would be no benefit.
Gravity trains would provide much faster travel than anything we have now, without even expending much energy in the process.
It's unlikely to happen any time soon if ever unfortunately.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435318</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31448808</id>
	<title>Re:"Wired" as an authoritative source? Sheesh.</title>
	<author>jcaplan</author>
	<datestamp>1268331720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The 1991 NY Times article states that they achieve an 87\% efficiency with compressed air, substantially better than hydro pumped storage's 70-75\% efficiency.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The 1991 NY Times article states that they achieve an 87 \ % efficiency with compressed air , substantially better than hydro pumped storage 's 70-75 \ % efficiency .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The 1991 NY Times article states that they achieve an 87\% efficiency with compressed air, substantially better than hydro pumped storage's 70-75\% efficiency.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436496</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435738</id>
	<title>Re:Generate a Vacuum</title>
	<author>Darkman, Walkin Dude</author>
	<datestamp>1268303100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Indeed, especially when there are many alternatives available. Pumped storage hydro (which China is rolling out as fast as it can) is a good one, or if you just wanted to string HVDC lines between main networks, you can get a smoothed power supply because the wind is always blowing somewhere, see for reference the European supergrid concept.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Indeed , especially when there are many alternatives available .
Pumped storage hydro ( which China is rolling out as fast as it can ) is a good one , or if you just wanted to string HVDC lines between main networks , you can get a smoothed power supply because the wind is always blowing somewhere , see for reference the European supergrid concept .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Indeed, especially when there are many alternatives available.
Pumped storage hydro (which China is rolling out as fast as it can) is a good one, or if you just wanted to string HVDC lines between main networks, you can get a smoothed power supply because the wind is always blowing somewhere, see for reference the European supergrid concept.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435318</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435546</id>
	<title>Re:Efficiency</title>
	<author>vtechpilot</author>
	<datestamp>1268300040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Your right that compressed air is a less energy efficient storage medium than Li-ion batteries, but only for the first couple of years. Li-ion battery storage capacity decreases at about 20\% a year because of natural degradation. Consider the cost to frequently manufacture, replace and dispose of batteries compared to the wear cycles of a compressed air container which is probably measured in decades.</p><p>My point here is that the maintenance cost for compressed air energy storage is quite low compared to other options. You also have to consider the cost of making the storage devices. Steel tanks are mostly hollow and we are already really good at making them. We are good at recycling steel too.  Air storage, unlike fuel cells or batteries options which consume lots of metals and require complex electronics to regulate, compressed air is extremely cheap and simple.</p><p>If our choice is cheap simple but supposedly inefficient storage of 50\% via compressed air or storing 0\% via other supposedly more efficient but unaffordable and unsustainable methods the choice is pretty simple.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Your right that compressed air is a less energy efficient storage medium than Li-ion batteries , but only for the first couple of years .
Li-ion battery storage capacity decreases at about 20 \ % a year because of natural degradation .
Consider the cost to frequently manufacture , replace and dispose of batteries compared to the wear cycles of a compressed air container which is probably measured in decades.My point here is that the maintenance cost for compressed air energy storage is quite low compared to other options .
You also have to consider the cost of making the storage devices .
Steel tanks are mostly hollow and we are already really good at making them .
We are good at recycling steel too .
Air storage , unlike fuel cells or batteries options which consume lots of metals and require complex electronics to regulate , compressed air is extremely cheap and simple.If our choice is cheap simple but supposedly inefficient storage of 50 \ % via compressed air or storing 0 \ % via other supposedly more efficient but unaffordable and unsustainable methods the choice is pretty simple .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Your right that compressed air is a less energy efficient storage medium than Li-ion batteries, but only for the first couple of years.
Li-ion battery storage capacity decreases at about 20\% a year because of natural degradation.
Consider the cost to frequently manufacture, replace and dispose of batteries compared to the wear cycles of a compressed air container which is probably measured in decades.My point here is that the maintenance cost for compressed air energy storage is quite low compared to other options.
You also have to consider the cost of making the storage devices.
Steel tanks are mostly hollow and we are already really good at making them.
We are good at recycling steel too.
Air storage, unlike fuel cells or batteries options which consume lots of metals and require complex electronics to regulate, compressed air is extremely cheap and simple.If our choice is cheap simple but supposedly inefficient storage of 50\% via compressed air or storing 0\% via other supposedly more efficient but unaffordable and unsustainable methods the choice is pretty simple.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435342</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31440468</id>
	<title>Re:Generate a Vacuum</title>
	<author>boriquajake</author>
	<datestamp>1268332740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Instead, build long tunnels between major cities, evacuate them down to between 0 and 3 psi, and run high speed trains through them.  The trains would need very little energy to run thru the extremely thin atmosphere, and the pressure diffential can be used to generate electricity when needed.  2 birds, 1 stone.</p></div><p>Yeah, the energy expended to create and maintain the vacum will magically be returned doubled. Yay, free energy forever!! All the birds in the universe by one magical stone.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Instead , build long tunnels between major cities , evacuate them down to between 0 and 3 psi , and run high speed trains through them .
The trains would need very little energy to run thru the extremely thin atmosphere , and the pressure diffential can be used to generate electricity when needed .
2 birds , 1 stone.Yeah , the energy expended to create and maintain the vacum will magically be returned doubled .
Yay , free energy forever ! !
All the birds in the universe by one magical stone .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Instead, build long tunnels between major cities, evacuate them down to between 0 and 3 psi, and run high speed trains through them.
The trains would need very little energy to run thru the extremely thin atmosphere, and the pressure diffential can be used to generate electricity when needed.
2 birds, 1 stone.Yeah, the energy expended to create and maintain the vacum will magically be returned doubled.
Yay, free energy forever!!
All the birds in the universe by one magical stone.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435218</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435828</id>
	<title>Re:Efficiency</title>
	<author>dltaylor</author>
	<datestamp>1268304540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Stress fractures in the tanks however "constructed" due to the frequently shifting internal pressure (think aircraft hulls that undergo a lot of pressure cycles, like the "convertible" Aloha 737)?</p><p>Pumps don't need maintenance or experience wear?</p><p>Losses in the gears or generator/motor sets to drive the pumps from the windmills?</p><p>It's easy forget all of those costs.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Stress fractures in the tanks however " constructed " due to the frequently shifting internal pressure ( think aircraft hulls that undergo a lot of pressure cycles , like the " convertible " Aloha 737 ) ? Pumps do n't need maintenance or experience wear ? Losses in the gears or generator/motor sets to drive the pumps from the windmills ? It 's easy forget all of those costs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Stress fractures in the tanks however "constructed" due to the frequently shifting internal pressure (think aircraft hulls that undergo a lot of pressure cycles, like the "convertible" Aloha 737)?Pumps don't need maintenance or experience wear?Losses in the gears or generator/motor sets to drive the pumps from the windmills?It's easy forget all of those costs.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435546</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31448894</id>
	<title>Re:Generate a Vacuum</title>
	<author>randyleepublic</author>
	<datestamp>1268333280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>You are close to my best invention ever, but you missed the bus.  (har har).  The point is this: why were trains invented?  Because they are more efficient.  Why?  Because the first car in the train breaks the wind for all the others.  (don't say it!)
<br> <br>
So, the point is this: when you operate carriages in a vacuum or near vacuum, THERE IS NO WIND TO BREAK!  You don't need "trains".  All you need are individual carriages.  This one point is the tipper:  A traveler would be able to go to a station, order up a carriage of the right size for the number of people and amount of luggage in his party, specify the destination, and then leave forthwith!  No schedules.  Just go.  Just like driving only at 10 times or more the rate of travel.  We should so be doing this!!!!!
<br> <br>
No, No, No, we need to spend billions on democracy building in Iraq.  My bad.
<br> <br>
Remember: Randy Fucking Lee said it first!!</htmltext>
<tokenext>You are close to my best invention ever , but you missed the bus .
( har har ) .
The point is this : why were trains invented ?
Because they are more efficient .
Why ? Because the first car in the train breaks the wind for all the others .
( do n't say it !
) So , the point is this : when you operate carriages in a vacuum or near vacuum , THERE IS NO WIND TO BREAK !
You do n't need " trains " .
All you need are individual carriages .
This one point is the tipper : A traveler would be able to go to a station , order up a carriage of the right size for the number of people and amount of luggage in his party , specify the destination , and then leave forthwith !
No schedules .
Just go .
Just like driving only at 10 times or more the rate of travel .
We should so be doing this ! ! ! ! !
No , No , No , we need to spend billions on democracy building in Iraq .
My bad .
Remember : Randy Fucking Lee said it first !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are close to my best invention ever, but you missed the bus.
(har har).
The point is this: why were trains invented?
Because they are more efficient.
Why?  Because the first car in the train breaks the wind for all the others.
(don't say it!
)
 
So, the point is this: when you operate carriages in a vacuum or near vacuum, THERE IS NO WIND TO BREAK!
You don't need "trains".
All you need are individual carriages.
This one point is the tipper:  A traveler would be able to go to a station, order up a carriage of the right size for the number of people and amount of luggage in his party, specify the destination, and then leave forthwith!
No schedules.
Just go.
Just like driving only at 10 times or more the rate of travel.
We should so be doing this!!!!!
No, No, No, we need to spend billions on democracy building in Iraq.
My bad.
Remember: Randy Fucking Lee said it first!
!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435218</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435668</id>
	<title>Re:I knew...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268301960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>iKnew?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>iKnew ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>iKnew?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435210</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436022</id>
	<title>Re:Load leveling Vs. Supply leveling</title>
	<author>FishTankX</author>
	<datestamp>1268308020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>One small bit to add to this. Nuclear wouldn't be the best candidate for this load leveling because running the nuclear plant at full blast 24 hours a day would significantly reduce it's lifespan. It's already hard as nails to get a nuclear plant BUILT, having to retire them 20 years early because they were worked to the bone and failed due to radiation damage and pressure damage would be a tragedy.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>One small bit to add to this .
Nuclear would n't be the best candidate for this load leveling because running the nuclear plant at full blast 24 hours a day would significantly reduce it 's lifespan .
It 's already hard as nails to get a nuclear plant BUILT , having to retire them 20 years early because they were worked to the bone and failed due to radiation damage and pressure damage would be a tragedy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One small bit to add to this.
Nuclear wouldn't be the best candidate for this load leveling because running the nuclear plant at full blast 24 hours a day would significantly reduce it's lifespan.
It's already hard as nails to get a nuclear plant BUILT, having to retire them 20 years early because they were worked to the bone and failed due to radiation damage and pressure damage would be a tragedy.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435274</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436180</id>
	<title>Doing it with water</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268310840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>People have been storing electrical energy using water for a long time (over a century). The basic idea is the same, but in the case of water and hydroelectric dams, the solution is easier (you just run the turbines as pumps, putting water into the resevoir instead of letting it drain out). According to the wikipedia article on <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage\_hydroelectricity" title="wikipedia.org">Pumped-storage hydroelectricity</a> [wikipedia.org] :</p><p><i><br>In 2009 the United States had 21.5 GW of pumped storage generating capacity, accounting for 2.5\% of baseload generating capacity. PHS generated (net) -6288 GWh of energy in 2008<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</i></p><p><i>In 2007 the EU had 38.3 GW net capacity of pumped storage out of a total of 140 GW of hydropower and representing 5\% of total net electrical capacity in the EU.<br></i></p><p>And, yes, people <a href="http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/sustainable/refs/tide/WindPumpedStor.pdf" title="cam.ac.uk">have considered</a> [cam.ac.uk] using pumped-storage hydroelectric to even out the variation in wind power.</p><p>I myself doubt that compressed air storage would ever amount to more than a fraction of pumped hydro-electric storage, but it might be useful in very dry or very flat regions.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>People have been storing electrical energy using water for a long time ( over a century ) .
The basic idea is the same , but in the case of water and hydroelectric dams , the solution is easier ( you just run the turbines as pumps , putting water into the resevoir instead of letting it drain out ) .
According to the wikipedia article on Pumped-storage hydroelectricity [ wikipedia.org ] : In 2009 the United States had 21.5 GW of pumped storage generating capacity , accounting for 2.5 \ % of baseload generating capacity .
PHS generated ( net ) -6288 GWh of energy in 2008 ...In 2007 the EU had 38.3 GW net capacity of pumped storage out of a total of 140 GW of hydropower and representing 5 \ % of total net electrical capacity in the EU.And , yes , people have considered [ cam.ac.uk ] using pumped-storage hydroelectric to even out the variation in wind power.I myself doubt that compressed air storage would ever amount to more than a fraction of pumped hydro-electric storage , but it might be useful in very dry or very flat regions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>People have been storing electrical energy using water for a long time (over a century).
The basic idea is the same, but in the case of water and hydroelectric dams, the solution is easier (you just run the turbines as pumps, putting water into the resevoir instead of letting it drain out).
According to the wikipedia article on Pumped-storage hydroelectricity [wikipedia.org] :In 2009 the United States had 21.5 GW of pumped storage generating capacity, accounting for 2.5\% of baseload generating capacity.
PHS generated (net) -6288 GWh of energy in 2008 ...In 2007 the EU had 38.3 GW net capacity of pumped storage out of a total of 140 GW of hydropower and representing 5\% of total net electrical capacity in the EU.And, yes, people have considered [cam.ac.uk] using pumped-storage hydroelectric to even out the variation in wind power.I myself doubt that compressed air storage would ever amount to more than a fraction of pumped hydro-electric storage, but it might be useful in very dry or very flat regions.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31439660</id>
	<title>Re:Unwater Bags</title>
	<author>Joey Vegetables</author>
	<datestamp>1268329620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>High-fructose corn syrup is strongly suspected to play a role in making people diabatic . . . couldn't it conceivably work the same way here?</htmltext>
<tokenext>High-fructose corn syrup is strongly suspected to play a role in making people diabatic .
. .
could n't it conceivably work the same way here ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>High-fructose corn syrup is strongly suspected to play a role in making people diabatic .
. .
couldn't it conceivably work the same way here?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435616</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31441448</id>
	<title>Re:Efficiency</title>
	<author>itzdandy</author>
	<datestamp>1268336520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>we make pretty efficient electric motors and alternators now.  why not put a many-ton flywheel in a pit and apply a modest vacuum to the chamber.  support the unit magnetically using some permanent magnets for lower rpm states and have some electromagnets that are used when the rpms go up during peak generation times.  Do this specifically to extend the life of the permanent magnets and lessen the cost considering electromagnets will be cheaper to build and maintain for high loads.</p><p>Yes, you will have losses when using the electromagnets and if you dont take it to a pure vacuum you will have some drag but they will be a diminishing return on as you decrease the vacuum pressure and maintain that vs the reduction in drag.  be sure to polish the flywheel down as smooth as possible and put a coating on it to reduce drag further.</p><p>Catastrophic failure?  all the energy is stored horizontally.  Any release will oppose the axles direction so a failed flywheel would shoot shrapnel into the ground sideways.  likely totally destroying the facility but the above-ground damage would be much less than a fault-rupture from underground air pressure or a chemical explosion which is in all directions.  Burried deep enough people on the service would feel a very localized minor earthquake. *dont put it on a fault line*</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>we make pretty efficient electric motors and alternators now .
why not put a many-ton flywheel in a pit and apply a modest vacuum to the chamber .
support the unit magnetically using some permanent magnets for lower rpm states and have some electromagnets that are used when the rpms go up during peak generation times .
Do this specifically to extend the life of the permanent magnets and lessen the cost considering electromagnets will be cheaper to build and maintain for high loads.Yes , you will have losses when using the electromagnets and if you dont take it to a pure vacuum you will have some drag but they will be a diminishing return on as you decrease the vacuum pressure and maintain that vs the reduction in drag .
be sure to polish the flywheel down as smooth as possible and put a coating on it to reduce drag further.Catastrophic failure ?
all the energy is stored horizontally .
Any release will oppose the axles direction so a failed flywheel would shoot shrapnel into the ground sideways .
likely totally destroying the facility but the above-ground damage would be much less than a fault-rupture from underground air pressure or a chemical explosion which is in all directions .
Burried deep enough people on the service would feel a very localized minor earthquake .
* dont put it on a fault line *</tokentext>
<sentencetext>we make pretty efficient electric motors and alternators now.
why not put a many-ton flywheel in a pit and apply a modest vacuum to the chamber.
support the unit magnetically using some permanent magnets for lower rpm states and have some electromagnets that are used when the rpms go up during peak generation times.
Do this specifically to extend the life of the permanent magnets and lessen the cost considering electromagnets will be cheaper to build and maintain for high loads.Yes, you will have losses when using the electromagnets and if you dont take it to a pure vacuum you will have some drag but they will be a diminishing return on as you decrease the vacuum pressure and maintain that vs the reduction in drag.
be sure to polish the flywheel down as smooth as possible and put a coating on it to reduce drag further.Catastrophic failure?
all the energy is stored horizontally.
Any release will oppose the axles direction so a failed flywheel would shoot shrapnel into the ground sideways.
likely totally destroying the facility but the above-ground damage would be much less than a fault-rupture from underground air pressure or a chemical explosion which is in all directions.
Burried deep enough people on the service would feel a very localized minor earthquake.
*dont put it on a fault line*</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435546</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31437206</id>
	<title>Torque -</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268321820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Most power-generating windmills favor high tip speed to high torque. Pumping windmills are considered undesirable for power generation due to this and the added fact that large the gearboxes needed to convert that torque into power increase the weight of the turbine itself. However, transporting a working fluid does favor high torque, and high torque windmills with lots of blades function better in low wind. (This is evidenced by their historic use in well pumps.) Using a more typical (and cheaper) farm-style turbine to lift or compress a working fluid and then allow it to move through a second power-generating turbine or piston at ground level may favor intermittent, weaker winds while providing a direct source of compressed gas or liquid. For instance, such a windmill coupled to a compressor and radiator could plausibly serve as a refrigeration system for a cold cellar or cold sink without any electricity at all.</p><p>Not that it matters too awfully much. The future of wind power, and indeed the only rational direction it can possibly be taken in, is in high-altitude glider based systems, not in turbines restricted to the first couple hundred meters above ground level or so.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Most power-generating windmills favor high tip speed to high torque .
Pumping windmills are considered undesirable for power generation due to this and the added fact that large the gearboxes needed to convert that torque into power increase the weight of the turbine itself .
However , transporting a working fluid does favor high torque , and high torque windmills with lots of blades function better in low wind .
( This is evidenced by their historic use in well pumps .
) Using a more typical ( and cheaper ) farm-style turbine to lift or compress a working fluid and then allow it to move through a second power-generating turbine or piston at ground level may favor intermittent , weaker winds while providing a direct source of compressed gas or liquid .
For instance , such a windmill coupled to a compressor and radiator could plausibly serve as a refrigeration system for a cold cellar or cold sink without any electricity at all.Not that it matters too awfully much .
The future of wind power , and indeed the only rational direction it can possibly be taken in , is in high-altitude glider based systems , not in turbines restricted to the first couple hundred meters above ground level or so .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most power-generating windmills favor high tip speed to high torque.
Pumping windmills are considered undesirable for power generation due to this and the added fact that large the gearboxes needed to convert that torque into power increase the weight of the turbine itself.
However, transporting a working fluid does favor high torque, and high torque windmills with lots of blades function better in low wind.
(This is evidenced by their historic use in well pumps.
) Using a more typical (and cheaper) farm-style turbine to lift or compress a working fluid and then allow it to move through a second power-generating turbine or piston at ground level may favor intermittent, weaker winds while providing a direct source of compressed gas or liquid.
For instance, such a windmill coupled to a compressor and radiator could plausibly serve as a refrigeration system for a cold cellar or cold sink without any electricity at all.Not that it matters too awfully much.
The future of wind power, and indeed the only rational direction it can possibly be taken in, is in high-altitude glider based systems, not in turbines restricted to the first couple hundred meters above ground level or so.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31437090</id>
	<title>Re:Load leveling Vs. Supply leveling</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268320980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You are misinformed.  Nuclear, as it stands, is our most reliable source of energy.  The average capacity factor (actual energy output divided by possible energy output) for nuclear power plants in the US is over 90\%.  Nuclear power is the closest thing we have to full-blast power, and most plants last 40 years as a minimum (with plenty going for a 20 year extension after replacing critical components that are worn down).</p><p>The next closest source of energy, in terms of capacity factor, is coal - which is just below 75\%.  Nothing else is over 50\%.</p><p><a href="http://nuclearfissionary.com/2010/03/05/why-capacity-factor-matters-to-energy-production/" title="nuclearfissionary.com" rel="nofollow">Source</a> [nuclearfissionary.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You are misinformed .
Nuclear , as it stands , is our most reliable source of energy .
The average capacity factor ( actual energy output divided by possible energy output ) for nuclear power plants in the US is over 90 \ % .
Nuclear power is the closest thing we have to full-blast power , and most plants last 40 years as a minimum ( with plenty going for a 20 year extension after replacing critical components that are worn down ) .The next closest source of energy , in terms of capacity factor , is coal - which is just below 75 \ % .
Nothing else is over 50 \ % .Source [ nuclearfissionary.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are misinformed.
Nuclear, as it stands, is our most reliable source of energy.
The average capacity factor (actual energy output divided by possible energy output) for nuclear power plants in the US is over 90\%.
Nuclear power is the closest thing we have to full-blast power, and most plants last 40 years as a minimum (with plenty going for a 20 year extension after replacing critical components that are worn down).The next closest source of energy, in terms of capacity factor, is coal - which is just below 75\%.
Nothing else is over 50\%.Source [nuclearfissionary.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436022</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31441166</id>
	<title>Re:Been thought off and rejected as to complex</title>
	<author>itzdandy</author>
	<datestamp>1268335500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>see my other post.  push air through the tube and dont make a vacuum.  now people can breath.  think drive through bank tubes.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>see my other post .
push air through the tube and dont make a vacuum .
now people can breath .
think drive through bank tubes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>see my other post.
push air through the tube and dont make a vacuum.
now people can breath.
think drive through bank tubes.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31435784</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_11_0344233.31436544</id>
	<title>More evidence regarding journalist IQ</title>
	<author>jreineri</author>
	<datestamp>1268316360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>
TFA says:  "They had a unique problem, Nakhamkin said, in that their daytime load far exceeded their nighttime load, the opposite of the regular pattern."

This is NOT a unique problem.  It is NOT the opposite of the regular pattern.  The normal pattern is heavy usage durring day excess capacity at night. Existing hydo systems pump at night and generate during the day.  I suppose that is is possible for some system to have heavier demand at night, but I cannot imagine where that would be.  Air condidioning is higher during the day (its hotter), industrial users use more during the day (not all industrial users are 24/7 and even those that are generally are busier during the day), transit systems run more during daytime hours, and on and on.


Animal intelligence ranking -&gt; Mice, dolphins, humans, chimps,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>........., cockroaches, journalists, sports journalists.</htmltext>
<tokenext>TFA says : " They had a unique problem , Nakhamkin said , in that their daytime load far exceeded their nighttime load , the opposite of the regular pattern .
" This is NOT a unique problem .
It is NOT the opposite of the regular pattern .
The normal pattern is heavy usage durring day excess capacity at night .
Existing hydo systems pump at night and generate during the day .
I suppose that is is possible for some system to have heavier demand at night , but I can not imagine where that would be .
Air condidioning is higher during the day ( its hotter ) , industrial users use more during the day ( not all industrial users are 24/7 and even those that are generally are busier during the day ) , transit systems run more during daytime hours , and on and on .
Animal intelligence ranking - &gt; Mice , dolphins , humans , chimps , ......... , cockroaches , journalists , sports journalists .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
TFA says:  "They had a unique problem, Nakhamkin said, in that their daytime load far exceeded their nighttime load, the opposite of the regular pattern.
"

This is NOT a unique problem.
It is NOT the opposite of the regular pattern.
The normal pattern is heavy usage durring day excess capacity at night.
Existing hydo systems pump at night and generate during the day.
I suppose that is is possible for some system to have heavier demand at night, but I cannot imagine where that would be.
Air condidioning is higher during the day (its hotter), industrial users use more during the day (not all industrial users are 24/7 and even those that are generally are busier during the day), transit systems run more during daytime hours, and on and on.
Animal intelligence ranking -&gt; Mice, dolphins, humans, chimps, ........., cockroaches, journalists, sports journalists.</sentencetext>
</comment>
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