<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_03_07_0311208</id>
	<title>Lessons of a $618,616 Death</title>
	<author>kdawson</author>
	<datestamp>1267956840000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>theodp writes <i>"Two years after her husband's death, Amanda Bennett <a href="http://www.businessweek.com/print/magazine/content/10\_11/b4170032321836.htm">examines the costs and complex questions of keeping one man alive</a>. The bills for his seven-year battle with cancer totaled $618,616, almost two-thirds of which was for his final 24 months. No one can say for sure if the treatments helped extend his life, and she's left with a question she still can't answer: When is it time to quit?"</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>theodp writes " Two years after her husband 's death , Amanda Bennett examines the costs and complex questions of keeping one man alive .
The bills for his seven-year battle with cancer totaled $ 618,616 , almost two-thirds of which was for his final 24 months .
No one can say for sure if the treatments helped extend his life , and she 's left with a question she still ca n't answer : When is it time to quit ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>theodp writes "Two years after her husband's death, Amanda Bennett examines the costs and complex questions of keeping one man alive.
The bills for his seven-year battle with cancer totaled $618,616, almost two-thirds of which was for his final 24 months.
No one can say for sure if the treatments helped extend his life, and she's left with a question she still can't answer: When is it time to quit?
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389338</id>
	<title>Only if she were paying</title>
	<author>Chemisor</author>
	<datestamp>1267974420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's really easy to decide to spend more on health care when you are not the one paying the bill.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's really easy to decide to spend more on health care when you are not the one paying the bill .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's really easy to decide to spend more on health care when you are not the one paying the bill.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388026</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31392842</id>
	<title>look at how people value their own lives</title>
	<author>doug141</author>
	<datestamp>1267994280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p> <i>It is a sad day when one decides to value the dollar worth of a human life.</i></p></div> </blockquote><p>

We routinely do things that reduce our life expectancy by marginal amounts in return for rather minor conveniences and pleasures. We often stay up too late, eat and drink too much, fail to get enough exercise, and drive too fast. When we do so, we are putting a price on our lives, and a pretty low price. Just how much is it worth to eat that extra cream puff or drink that extra beer? You would probably forgo the cream puff for $10, but not to avoid reducing your life expectancy by a marginal amount. If so, the implication is clear--the marginal value, or price, you place on your life is no more than $10.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It is a sad day when one decides to value the dollar worth of a human life .
We routinely do things that reduce our life expectancy by marginal amounts in return for rather minor conveniences and pleasures .
We often stay up too late , eat and drink too much , fail to get enough exercise , and drive too fast .
When we do so , we are putting a price on our lives , and a pretty low price .
Just how much is it worth to eat that extra cream puff or drink that extra beer ?
You would probably forgo the cream puff for $ 10 , but not to avoid reducing your life expectancy by a marginal amount .
If so , the implication is clear--the marginal value , or price , you place on your life is no more than $ 10 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> It is a sad day when one decides to value the dollar worth of a human life.
We routinely do things that reduce our life expectancy by marginal amounts in return for rather minor conveniences and pleasures.
We often stay up too late, eat and drink too much, fail to get enough exercise, and drive too fast.
When we do so, we are putting a price on our lives, and a pretty low price.
Just how much is it worth to eat that extra cream puff or drink that extra beer?
You would probably forgo the cream puff for $10, but not to avoid reducing your life expectancy by a marginal amount.
If so, the implication is clear--the marginal value, or price, you place on your life is no more than $10.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388150</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31392192</id>
	<title>Re:The value of a life</title>
	<author>Ma8thew</author>
	<datestamp>1267990320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>The kind of cancer drugs that NICE (the body which decides which treatments are covered by the NHS in England and Wales) rejects are not exactly 'life saving'. The most recent examples tend to extend life by a few months, but are extremely expensive. NICE uses a formula to calculate whether a treatment is value for money, and they actually made an exemption for life prolonging cancer drugs to allow some of the more expensive ones to be used. Make no mistake, NICE does not reject cancer curing treatments.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The kind of cancer drugs that NICE ( the body which decides which treatments are covered by the NHS in England and Wales ) rejects are not exactly 'life saving' .
The most recent examples tend to extend life by a few months , but are extremely expensive .
NICE uses a formula to calculate whether a treatment is value for money , and they actually made an exemption for life prolonging cancer drugs to allow some of the more expensive ones to be used .
Make no mistake , NICE does not reject cancer curing treatments .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The kind of cancer drugs that NICE (the body which decides which treatments are covered by the NHS in England and Wales) rejects are not exactly 'life saving'.
The most recent examples tend to extend life by a few months, but are extremely expensive.
NICE uses a formula to calculate whether a treatment is value for money, and they actually made an exemption for life prolonging cancer drugs to allow some of the more expensive ones to be used.
Make no mistake, NICE does not reject cancer curing treatments.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388592</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390488</id>
	<title>Re:Selfish?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267981320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The issue is that the costs are over inflated. His treatments in all likelihood would be completely reasonable as an attempt to beat the cancer... if it were not for the fact that in the United States, Tylenol pills cost $140 when handed to you by a nurse, $120 for a bit of gauze, $1000 for a toothbrush, $102 for an IV bag (and they'll bill you for 40 they didn't even use on you to the tune of over $4000), $765 for laying on a gurney in the hallway of the ER...</p><p>In the United States, it can cost <b>thousands of dollars</b> just to go to the ER, get an X-Ray and get a few stitches. $618k for one person for cancer is probably on the low end now so it's not selfish to expect that treatment because it absolutely shouldn't cost that much to begin with.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The issue is that the costs are over inflated .
His treatments in all likelihood would be completely reasonable as an attempt to beat the cancer... if it were not for the fact that in the United States , Tylenol pills cost $ 140 when handed to you by a nurse , $ 120 for a bit of gauze , $ 1000 for a toothbrush , $ 102 for an IV bag ( and they 'll bill you for 40 they did n't even use on you to the tune of over $ 4000 ) , $ 765 for laying on a gurney in the hallway of the ER...In the United States , it can cost thousands of dollars just to go to the ER , get an X-Ray and get a few stitches .
$ 618k for one person for cancer is probably on the low end now so it 's not selfish to expect that treatment because it absolutely should n't cost that much to begin with .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The issue is that the costs are over inflated.
His treatments in all likelihood would be completely reasonable as an attempt to beat the cancer... if it were not for the fact that in the United States, Tylenol pills cost $140 when handed to you by a nurse, $120 for a bit of gauze, $1000 for a toothbrush, $102 for an IV bag (and they'll bill you for 40 they didn't even use on you to the tune of over $4000), $765 for laying on a gurney in the hallway of the ER...In the United States, it can cost thousands of dollars just to go to the ER, get an X-Ray and get a few stitches.
$618k for one person for cancer is probably on the low end now so it's not selfish to expect that treatment because it absolutely shouldn't cost that much to begin with.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388216</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389730</id>
	<title>Re:I think that it's pretty much always worth it</title>
	<author>Vellmont</author>
	<datestamp>1267976640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i><br>True, it's horrendously expensive. But that money pays for research, and that research will allow people to stay alive or even get cured a lot cheaper later.<br></i><br>Some of it pays for research.  More of it goes to marketing though.  How much is pure profit?  I'd rather not try to address the complexities of public funded drugs vs "free market" funded drugs, but suffice it to say the picture is far more complicated, and has many more options than what you're saying.</p><p><i><br>Incidentally, I believe that paying for the "vaccine for nearly a quarter million children in developing countries" is on the long term a rather pointless thing.<br></i><br>Infra-structure doesn't help so much when everyone is dying of some easily preventable disease.  Infra-structure is important, but you have to start with getting people relatively healthy first.  Sick people ain't so productive, and are obviously very expensive.  Is it really smart to build a factory, educate the workers, train them..  and then have a large portion of the people you just spent a lot of money on dying of malaria, or some other cheap to prevent disease?  A healthy society is the base of productivity.  In a very real sense it IS infra-structure.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>True , it 's horrendously expensive .
But that money pays for research , and that research will allow people to stay alive or even get cured a lot cheaper later.Some of it pays for research .
More of it goes to marketing though .
How much is pure profit ?
I 'd rather not try to address the complexities of public funded drugs vs " free market " funded drugs , but suffice it to say the picture is far more complicated , and has many more options than what you 're saying.Incidentally , I believe that paying for the " vaccine for nearly a quarter million children in developing countries " is on the long term a rather pointless thing.Infra-structure does n't help so much when everyone is dying of some easily preventable disease .
Infra-structure is important , but you have to start with getting people relatively healthy first .
Sick people ai n't so productive , and are obviously very expensive .
Is it really smart to build a factory , educate the workers , train them.. and then have a large portion of the people you just spent a lot of money on dying of malaria , or some other cheap to prevent disease ?
A healthy society is the base of productivity .
In a very real sense it IS infra-structure .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>True, it's horrendously expensive.
But that money pays for research, and that research will allow people to stay alive or even get cured a lot cheaper later.Some of it pays for research.
More of it goes to marketing though.
How much is pure profit?
I'd rather not try to address the complexities of public funded drugs vs "free market" funded drugs, but suffice it to say the picture is far more complicated, and has many more options than what you're saying.Incidentally, I believe that paying for the "vaccine for nearly a quarter million children in developing countries" is on the long term a rather pointless thing.Infra-structure doesn't help so much when everyone is dying of some easily preventable disease.
Infra-structure is important, but you have to start with getting people relatively healthy first.
Sick people ain't so productive, and are obviously very expensive.
Is it really smart to build a factory, educate the workers, train them..  and then have a large portion of the people you just spent a lot of money on dying of malaria, or some other cheap to prevent disease?
A healthy society is the base of productivity.
In a very real sense it IS infra-structure.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388428</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390474</id>
	<title>Re:You're Sick!</title>
	<author>Fnkmaster</author>
	<datestamp>1267981200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You do realize that in your country, somebody asks this question too.  Assuming you live in a country with a single payer system, the people who run your single payer system have already decided what they are willing to pay and for which procedures.  The way they do that is generally looking at dollars spent vs. quality-adjusted-life-years purchased for their taxpayer citizens, and similar health economics measures.  I agree that the system in the US is fucked up in many many ways, but having to consider costs in medical treatment is a reality of finite resources and it happens everywhere.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You do realize that in your country , somebody asks this question too .
Assuming you live in a country with a single payer system , the people who run your single payer system have already decided what they are willing to pay and for which procedures .
The way they do that is generally looking at dollars spent vs. quality-adjusted-life-years purchased for their taxpayer citizens , and similar health economics measures .
I agree that the system in the US is fucked up in many many ways , but having to consider costs in medical treatment is a reality of finite resources and it happens everywhere .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You do realize that in your country, somebody asks this question too.
Assuming you live in a country with a single payer system, the people who run your single payer system have already decided what they are willing to pay and for which procedures.
The way they do that is generally looking at dollars spent vs. quality-adjusted-life-years purchased for their taxpayer citizens, and similar health economics measures.
I agree that the system in the US is fucked up in many many ways, but having to consider costs in medical treatment is a reality of finite resources and it happens everywhere.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388248</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388658</id>
	<title>Re:Tis a sad day</title>
	<author>maxume</author>
	<datestamp>1267969980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If there was no way to exchange dollars for human life, he likely would have died 5 or 6 years sooner.</p><p>I can't imagine how that makes you sad. I suppose you might not have thought through that health care costs money no matter what, there are just some systems that hide the costs from the patient.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If there was no way to exchange dollars for human life , he likely would have died 5 or 6 years sooner.I ca n't imagine how that makes you sad .
I suppose you might not have thought through that health care costs money no matter what , there are just some systems that hide the costs from the patient .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If there was no way to exchange dollars for human life, he likely would have died 5 or 6 years sooner.I can't imagine how that makes you sad.
I suppose you might not have thought through that health care costs money no matter what, there are just some systems that hide the costs from the patient.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388150</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388194</id>
	<title>exploitation</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267963920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>1. patent drug treatments.<br>2. suppress cures.<br>3. ???<br>4. profit</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>1. patent drug treatments.2 .
suppress cures.3 .
? ? ? 4. profit</tokentext>
<sentencetext>1. patent drug treatments.2.
suppress cures.3.
???4. profit</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389940</id>
	<title>it doesn't have to be that way</title>
	<author>snooo53</author>
	<datestamp>1267978020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>This is not an either/or choice, and to say it's due to lack of resources is disingenuous at best.  There is more than enough food in the world to feed everyone.  More than enough manufacturing capacity to vaccinate everyone.  And in short order there could be more than enough hospitals and doctors to treat everyone who is sick.  The reasons we can't vaccinate/feed/cure the world are not because we can't due to lack of resources, but because WE CHOOSE NOT TO as a society. (either directly or indirectly by supporting the particular political or economic systems of the world)</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is not an either/or choice , and to say it 's due to lack of resources is disingenuous at best .
There is more than enough food in the world to feed everyone .
More than enough manufacturing capacity to vaccinate everyone .
And in short order there could be more than enough hospitals and doctors to treat everyone who is sick .
The reasons we ca n't vaccinate/feed/cure the world are not because we ca n't due to lack of resources , but because WE CHOOSE NOT TO as a society .
( either directly or indirectly by supporting the particular political or economic systems of the world )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is not an either/or choice, and to say it's due to lack of resources is disingenuous at best.
There is more than enough food in the world to feed everyone.
More than enough manufacturing capacity to vaccinate everyone.
And in short order there could be more than enough hospitals and doctors to treat everyone who is sick.
The reasons we can't vaccinate/feed/cure the world are not because we can't due to lack of resources, but because WE CHOOSE NOT TO as a society.
(either directly or indirectly by supporting the particular political or economic systems of the world)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388456</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31391282</id>
	<title>Re:if i ever catch a terminal illness</title>
	<author>cts5678</author>
	<datestamp>1267985520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I agree, except I'd probably opt for a massive overdose of heroin.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree , except I 'd probably opt for a massive overdose of heroin .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree, except I'd probably opt for a massive overdose of heroin.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388636</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388668</id>
	<title>Re:Tis a sad day</title>
	<author>Ma8thew</author>
	<datestamp>1267970160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Unfortunately no matter what health care system is used there is a dollar value on life. Would you say that it is value for money to spend the entire revenue of Microsoft for one year to extend someone's life for six months? One month? One week? Because at some point pretty much everyone will draw the line, and then you are putting a value on human life.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Unfortunately no matter what health care system is used there is a dollar value on life .
Would you say that it is value for money to spend the entire revenue of Microsoft for one year to extend someone 's life for six months ?
One month ?
One week ?
Because at some point pretty much everyone will draw the line , and then you are putting a value on human life .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unfortunately no matter what health care system is used there is a dollar value on life.
Would you say that it is value for money to spend the entire revenue of Microsoft for one year to extend someone's life for six months?
One month?
One week?
Because at some point pretty much everyone will draw the line, and then you are putting a value on human life.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388150</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31391430</id>
	<title>One Word - Hospice</title>
	<author>Penicillus</author>
	<datestamp>1267986540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Hospice is a loving and caring way for helping the dying, and once an individual is admitted, many of the costs are absorbed by grants and government assistance there.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Hospice is a loving and caring way for helping the dying , and once an individual is admitted , many of the costs are absorbed by grants and government assistance there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hospice is a loving and caring way for helping the dying, and once an individual is admitted, many of the costs are absorbed by grants and government assistance there.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388310</id>
	<title>There is no time to quit</title>
	<author>egnop</author>
	<datestamp>1267965720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Allthough I agree a little bit with fluffeh:<br>- I would ask at what point did HE stop wanting to go through all the medicines and procedures?<br>- If you ask me, that's when it should have stopped.</p><p>I've been through that process with several people that eventually died,</p><p>The main thing that keep hopes up is that they will find a cure for the problem within the time frame.</p><p>Yes, I know, it sounds like irrational, but missing the one you love is keeping up taking the effort of holding someone alive</p><p>And that point, that very fine point is the point where you just keep going, and don't quit.</p><p>There is no time to quit until reality and rationality wins in your hopes...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Allthough I agree a little bit with fluffeh : - I would ask at what point did HE stop wanting to go through all the medicines and procedures ? - If you ask me , that 's when it should have stopped.I 've been through that process with several people that eventually died,The main thing that keep hopes up is that they will find a cure for the problem within the time frame.Yes , I know , it sounds like irrational , but missing the one you love is keeping up taking the effort of holding someone aliveAnd that point , that very fine point is the point where you just keep going , and do n't quit.There is no time to quit until reality and rationality wins in your hopes.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Allthough I agree a little bit with fluffeh:- I would ask at what point did HE stop wanting to go through all the medicines and procedures?- If you ask me, that's when it should have stopped.I've been through that process with several people that eventually died,The main thing that keep hopes up is that they will find a cure for the problem within the time frame.Yes, I know, it sounds like irrational, but missing the one you love is keeping up taking the effort of holding someone aliveAnd that point, that very fine point is the point where you just keep going, and don't quit.There is no time to quit until reality and rationality wins in your hopes...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31391736</id>
	<title>A third path</title>
	<author>bradbury</author>
	<datestamp>1267988040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>After 250+ comments I am surprised that there is no discussion of a 3rd path, e.g. cryonic suspension.  Ralph Merkle often presents a 2x2 decision matrix with "cryonics works / doesn't work" on one axis and "choose / don't choose cryonics" on the other axis.  In only one of those boxes does one come out surviving.  Yes, in one box, one comes out as "stupid" (cryonics doesn't work + choose cryonics) -- but asserting the negative (cryonics doesn't work) is a very hard thing to prove (esp. when asserting the alternatives -- disassembly by cremation or microbes are fairly certain to "not work").</p><p>Given that current prices (which I haven't checked lately) were of the order of $30-$50K for head/brain preservation and $130-$150K for whole body preservation it looks like the costs are 4+x cheaper for allowing a hospice path "death" followed by immediate cryonic suspension vs. the current medical paradigm of pulling out all the stops (no restrictions on costs) end-of-life care for people who are certain to die (and have presumably a low quality of life during that period).</p><p>I would request that you not even think about responding to this post in a "cryonics won't work" vein unless you really know what you are speaking about (meaning you really understand nanotechnology and nanomedicine and have a good working knowledge of cell biology and current cryonic suspension (vitrification) processes -- the information is out there on the WWW if one bothers to educate oneself).  By and large I consider the current medical community to be guilty of malpractice if they only present the two "standard" paths (hospice care vs. full medical intervention) and leave out cryonic suspension.  It is interesting that in the current debate regarding controlling health care costs that cryonic suspension has not come up in the discussion as an alternative.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>After 250 + comments I am surprised that there is no discussion of a 3rd path , e.g .
cryonic suspension .
Ralph Merkle often presents a 2x2 decision matrix with " cryonics works / does n't work " on one axis and " choose / do n't choose cryonics " on the other axis .
In only one of those boxes does one come out surviving .
Yes , in one box , one comes out as " stupid " ( cryonics does n't work + choose cryonics ) -- but asserting the negative ( cryonics does n't work ) is a very hard thing to prove ( esp .
when asserting the alternatives -- disassembly by cremation or microbes are fairly certain to " not work " ) .Given that current prices ( which I have n't checked lately ) were of the order of $ 30- $ 50K for head/brain preservation and $ 130- $ 150K for whole body preservation it looks like the costs are 4 + x cheaper for allowing a hospice path " death " followed by immediate cryonic suspension vs. the current medical paradigm of pulling out all the stops ( no restrictions on costs ) end-of-life care for people who are certain to die ( and have presumably a low quality of life during that period ) .I would request that you not even think about responding to this post in a " cryonics wo n't work " vein unless you really know what you are speaking about ( meaning you really understand nanotechnology and nanomedicine and have a good working knowledge of cell biology and current cryonic suspension ( vitrification ) processes -- the information is out there on the WWW if one bothers to educate oneself ) .
By and large I consider the current medical community to be guilty of malpractice if they only present the two " standard " paths ( hospice care vs. full medical intervention ) and leave out cryonic suspension .
It is interesting that in the current debate regarding controlling health care costs that cryonic suspension has not come up in the discussion as an alternative .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>After 250+ comments I am surprised that there is no discussion of a 3rd path, e.g.
cryonic suspension.
Ralph Merkle often presents a 2x2 decision matrix with "cryonics works / doesn't work" on one axis and "choose / don't choose cryonics" on the other axis.
In only one of those boxes does one come out surviving.
Yes, in one box, one comes out as "stupid" (cryonics doesn't work + choose cryonics) -- but asserting the negative (cryonics doesn't work) is a very hard thing to prove (esp.
when asserting the alternatives -- disassembly by cremation or microbes are fairly certain to "not work").Given that current prices (which I haven't checked lately) were of the order of $30-$50K for head/brain preservation and $130-$150K for whole body preservation it looks like the costs are 4+x cheaper for allowing a hospice path "death" followed by immediate cryonic suspension vs. the current medical paradigm of pulling out all the stops (no restrictions on costs) end-of-life care for people who are certain to die (and have presumably a low quality of life during that period).I would request that you not even think about responding to this post in a "cryonics won't work" vein unless you really know what you are speaking about (meaning you really understand nanotechnology and nanomedicine and have a good working knowledge of cell biology and current cryonic suspension (vitrification) processes -- the information is out there on the WWW if one bothers to educate oneself).
By and large I consider the current medical community to be guilty of malpractice if they only present the two "standard" paths (hospice care vs. full medical intervention) and leave out cryonic suspension.
It is interesting that in the current debate regarding controlling health care costs that cryonic suspension has not come up in the discussion as an alternative.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390336</id>
	<title>Thoughts of a Middle Aged Geek</title>
	<author>sybarite</author>
	<datestamp>1267980360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I rarely post to Slashdot, but feel the need to weigh in on this topic.  At 40, I am at an age where I increasingly am confronted with the end-of-life issues of loved ones.  I have a dear friend who at 72 has been battling cancer for a few years.  I cherish the fact that he is still with us for whatever time he has left.  This man is more active than I am and is a real world character from the movie "The Bucket List".  <br> <br>

There are some gut-wrenching decisions that need to be made about when to let the inevitable take its course.  I do believe this is best left to the patient and their families.   I do think that it is to be expected (and okay) that the majority of health care spending is at the end of one's life.  Those who choose to battle on against odds do benefit society by providing subjects for the experimental.  They are the pioneers whose treatment may one day lead to either a cure or successful management of the disease.  Perhaps not for themselves, but for those on down the line.<br> <br>

I think that this article was also an indictment of the US healthcare system.  The overhead and markup is horrendous.  The system engineer in me dislikes inefficiency and believes strongly in process improvement.  I think we can and should do better for all of us.  The challenge is obviously that there are too many constituencies and stakeholders that are unwilling to work together toward a common good as they profit mightily from the status quo.  They spread fear, uncertainty, and doubt when anyone tries to change the current system.  This article illustrates again to me that medical care is not market driven service, so a market-based approach to health care delivery might not be effective.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I rarely post to Slashdot , but feel the need to weigh in on this topic .
At 40 , I am at an age where I increasingly am confronted with the end-of-life issues of loved ones .
I have a dear friend who at 72 has been battling cancer for a few years .
I cherish the fact that he is still with us for whatever time he has left .
This man is more active than I am and is a real world character from the movie " The Bucket List " .
There are some gut-wrenching decisions that need to be made about when to let the inevitable take its course .
I do believe this is best left to the patient and their families .
I do think that it is to be expected ( and okay ) that the majority of health care spending is at the end of one 's life .
Those who choose to battle on against odds do benefit society by providing subjects for the experimental .
They are the pioneers whose treatment may one day lead to either a cure or successful management of the disease .
Perhaps not for themselves , but for those on down the line .
I think that this article was also an indictment of the US healthcare system .
The overhead and markup is horrendous .
The system engineer in me dislikes inefficiency and believes strongly in process improvement .
I think we can and should do better for all of us .
The challenge is obviously that there are too many constituencies and stakeholders that are unwilling to work together toward a common good as they profit mightily from the status quo .
They spread fear , uncertainty , and doubt when anyone tries to change the current system .
This article illustrates again to me that medical care is not market driven service , so a market-based approach to health care delivery might not be effective .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I rarely post to Slashdot, but feel the need to weigh in on this topic.
At 40, I am at an age where I increasingly am confronted with the end-of-life issues of loved ones.
I have a dear friend who at 72 has been battling cancer for a few years.
I cherish the fact that he is still with us for whatever time he has left.
This man is more active than I am and is a real world character from the movie "The Bucket List".
There are some gut-wrenching decisions that need to be made about when to let the inevitable take its course.
I do believe this is best left to the patient and their families.
I do think that it is to be expected (and okay) that the majority of health care spending is at the end of one's life.
Those who choose to battle on against odds do benefit society by providing subjects for the experimental.
They are the pioneers whose treatment may one day lead to either a cure or successful management of the disease.
Perhaps not for themselves, but for those on down the line.
I think that this article was also an indictment of the US healthcare system.
The overhead and markup is horrendous.
The system engineer in me dislikes inefficiency and believes strongly in process improvement.
I think we can and should do better for all of us.
The challenge is obviously that there are too many constituencies and stakeholders that are unwilling to work together toward a common good as they profit mightily from the status quo.
They spread fear, uncertainty, and doubt when anyone tries to change the current system.
This article illustrates again to me that medical care is not market driven service, so a market-based approach to health care delivery might not be effective.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388914</id>
	<title>Re:Wrong question</title>
	<author>nextekcarl</author>
	<datestamp>1267972320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My sarcasm detector is on the fritz, did you drop this<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/s? I honestly can't tell.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My sarcasm detector is on the fritz , did you drop this /s ?
I honestly ca n't tell .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My sarcasm detector is on the fritz, did you drop this /s?
I honestly can't tell.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388054</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388056</id>
	<title>Just $200 more...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267961940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>...and he could have at least said his death was palindromic.</htmltext>
<tokenext>...and he could have at least said his death was palindromic .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...and he could have at least said his death was palindromic.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31393108</id>
	<title>The insurance/medical industry is...</title>
	<author>okmijnuhb</author>
	<datestamp>1267952760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The insurance/medical industry is to the terminally ill, as a pride of lions is to a weak antelope.<br>
they survive and thrive by devouring you.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The insurance/medical industry is to the terminally ill , as a pride of lions is to a weak antelope .
they survive and thrive by devouring you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The insurance/medical industry is to the terminally ill, as a pride of lions is to a weak antelope.
they survive and thrive by devouring you.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389204</id>
	<title>Re:So how much was for actual medical care?</title>
	<author>dbIII</author>
	<datestamp>1267973700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>Unfortunately that is bullshit fed to you by expensive PR.<br>An example demonstrating it very clearly is the cervical cancer vaccine developed with Australian taxpayers money, certified to US standards by the Australian taxpayer (similar to Australian standards so not a lot more) and licenced to US manufacturers for a very low fee.  Guess what - it costs more than twice as much as anywhere else in the USA with the "R&amp;D" excuse without a single dollar spent on research and development by those jacking up the price..<br>Most US commercial medical "R&amp;D" is finding loopholes in patents or slight refinements in research paid for by taxpayers somewhere, often US taxpayers.  There are exceptions but the markup seems to be an order of magnitude more.  It's really just a way to lie about profit instead of being up front about it.  Since there is very little competition in that market there is a lot of room to gouge money about of people instead of just making a comfortable living.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Unfortunately that is bullshit fed to you by expensive PR.An example demonstrating it very clearly is the cervical cancer vaccine developed with Australian taxpayers money , certified to US standards by the Australian taxpayer ( similar to Australian standards so not a lot more ) and licenced to US manufacturers for a very low fee .
Guess what - it costs more than twice as much as anywhere else in the USA with the " R&amp;D " excuse without a single dollar spent on research and development by those jacking up the price..Most US commercial medical " R&amp;D " is finding loopholes in patents or slight refinements in research paid for by taxpayers somewhere , often US taxpayers .
There are exceptions but the markup seems to be an order of magnitude more .
It 's really just a way to lie about profit instead of being up front about it .
Since there is very little competition in that market there is a lot of room to gouge money about of people instead of just making a comfortable living .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unfortunately that is bullshit fed to you by expensive PR.An example demonstrating it very clearly is the cervical cancer vaccine developed with Australian taxpayers money, certified to US standards by the Australian taxpayer (similar to Australian standards so not a lot more) and licenced to US manufacturers for a very low fee.
Guess what - it costs more than twice as much as anywhere else in the USA with the "R&amp;D" excuse without a single dollar spent on research and development by those jacking up the price..Most US commercial medical "R&amp;D" is finding loopholes in patents or slight refinements in research paid for by taxpayers somewhere, often US taxpayers.
There are exceptions but the markup seems to be an order of magnitude more.
It's really just a way to lie about profit instead of being up front about it.
Since there is very little competition in that market there is a lot of room to gouge money about of people instead of just making a comfortable living.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388622</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388358</id>
	<title>Questionable Source</title>
	<author>Lord Byron II</author>
	<datestamp>1267966320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why is it when we have health care discussions, the media tends to quote widows and widowers? They are not experts in health care and they are not unbiased. Sure, her story is interesting and compelling, but does it tell us anything useful about medicine in the US?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why is it when we have health care discussions , the media tends to quote widows and widowers ?
They are not experts in health care and they are not unbiased .
Sure , her story is interesting and compelling , but does it tell us anything useful about medicine in the US ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why is it when we have health care discussions, the media tends to quote widows and widowers?
They are not experts in health care and they are not unbiased.
Sure, her story is interesting and compelling, but does it tell us anything useful about medicine in the US?
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388778</id>
	<title>The whole medical establishment needs an acid bath</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267971600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The whole medical establishment has positioned itself to take full advantage of the sick and its cosy ties with the never ending government funding $$$ machine. They have their claws into everything and they scratch each others back i.e the doctors and big drug companies.<br>It's going to take a lot of work but the whole system needs dismantling, the large medical corporations need to be put in their place and made non profit, the specialists and doctors need to be taught how to care for their patients instead their bank accounts. The whole establishment needs an acid bath and a new beginning. We need to start at the medical schools to ensure the future doctors are in it for the right reasons.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The whole medical establishment has positioned itself to take full advantage of the sick and its cosy ties with the never ending government funding $ $ $ machine .
They have their claws into everything and they scratch each others back i.e the doctors and big drug companies.It 's going to take a lot of work but the whole system needs dismantling , the large medical corporations need to be put in their place and made non profit , the specialists and doctors need to be taught how to care for their patients instead their bank accounts .
The whole establishment needs an acid bath and a new beginning .
We need to start at the medical schools to ensure the future doctors are in it for the right reasons .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The whole medical establishment has positioned itself to take full advantage of the sick and its cosy ties with the never ending government funding $$$ machine.
They have their claws into everything and they scratch each others back i.e the doctors and big drug companies.It's going to take a lot of work but the whole system needs dismantling, the large medical corporations need to be put in their place and made non profit, the specialists and doctors need to be taught how to care for their patients instead their bank accounts.
The whole establishment needs an acid bath and a new beginning.
We need to start at the medical schools to ensure the future doctors are in it for the right reasons.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31395448</id>
	<title>Re:Just sick?</title>
	<author>RightSaidFred99</author>
	<datestamp>1267968660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wow, how positively dramatic of you.  If you were at a podium would you pound on it and have tears (for effect, of course) streaming down your face?</p><p>The fact that you are typing on SlashDot on a computer right now shows you are putting a price on life, you fucking hypocrite.  You could be working your fingers to the bone donating money to feed starving children, or to pay for research into a cure for Malaria or some other disease.</p><p>I love the holier than thou brigade.  They're always so completely full of shit.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Wow , how positively dramatic of you .
If you were at a podium would you pound on it and have tears ( for effect , of course ) streaming down your face ? The fact that you are typing on SlashDot on a computer right now shows you are putting a price on life , you fucking hypocrite .
You could be working your fingers to the bone donating money to feed starving children , or to pay for research into a cure for Malaria or some other disease.I love the holier than thou brigade .
They 're always so completely full of shit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wow, how positively dramatic of you.
If you were at a podium would you pound on it and have tears (for effect, of course) streaming down your face?The fact that you are typing on SlashDot on a computer right now shows you are putting a price on life, you fucking hypocrite.
You could be working your fingers to the bone donating money to feed starving children, or to pay for research into a cure for Malaria or some other disease.I love the holier than thou brigade.
They're always so completely full of shit.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388198</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388142</id>
	<title>Re:How much is your life worth?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267963140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Dude, the work you do is not anywhere near as important as what you think it is.</p><p>Take a holiday!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Dude , the work you do is not anywhere near as important as what you think it is.Take a holiday !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Dude, the work you do is not anywhere near as important as what you think it is.Take a holiday!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388048</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31392800</id>
	<title>Re:I think that it's pretty much always worth it</title>
	<author>Alinabi</author>
	<datestamp>1267994040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>True, it's horrendously expensive. But that money pays for research, and that research will allow people to stay alive or even get cured a lot cheaper later.</p></div><p>So, you are saying that the only people who should pay for cancer research are the ones unfortunate enough to get it? Nice.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>True , it 's horrendously expensive .
But that money pays for research , and that research will allow people to stay alive or even get cured a lot cheaper later.So , you are saying that the only people who should pay for cancer research are the ones unfortunate enough to get it ?
Nice .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>True, it's horrendously expensive.
But that money pays for research, and that research will allow people to stay alive or even get cured a lot cheaper later.So, you are saying that the only people who should pay for cancer research are the ones unfortunate enough to get it?
Nice.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388428</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390672</id>
	<title>Re:easy</title>
	<author>nitehawk214</author>
	<datestamp>1267982400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem is, your life is worth a lot less to me then it is to you. (Sorry, not trying to be an ass, but I don't even know you.) I can probably guess our lives are worth whatever we pay in taxes to a bureaucrat (if that).</p><p>I think this is more of a cultural problem. After taking care of a parent with a terminal disease, I can sympathies with anyone in that situation. Furthermore, in many cases the patient's life is worth less to them, then it is to their family.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is , your life is worth a lot less to me then it is to you .
( Sorry , not trying to be an ass , but I do n't even know you .
) I can probably guess our lives are worth whatever we pay in taxes to a bureaucrat ( if that ) .I think this is more of a cultural problem .
After taking care of a parent with a terminal disease , I can sympathies with anyone in that situation .
Furthermore , in many cases the patient 's life is worth less to them , then it is to their family .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is, your life is worth a lot less to me then it is to you.
(Sorry, not trying to be an ass, but I don't even know you.
) I can probably guess our lives are worth whatever we pay in taxes to a bureaucrat (if that).I think this is more of a cultural problem.
After taking care of a parent with a terminal disease, I can sympathies with anyone in that situation.
Furthermore, in many cases the patient's life is worth less to them, then it is to their family.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388006</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388166</id>
	<title>After just watching The Matrix again ...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267963440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I can only use words like "inevitable."  I've lost loved ones in various ways... the inevitable grandparents, a parent, a son, friends... It's just another ending among many types of endings just as there are many types of beginnings.  I'm neither happy nor sad about either.  I just can't think in those terms any longer.  Have I grown up or have I simply grown numb or indifferent.  As I still enjoy life in general and can't help but smile at the antics of my youngest son, I doubt numb is what I have become.  I think I have learned better than many how to let go and say goodbye.  That lesson came easy when my mother died after a long agonizing time of waiting... for the inevitable.  When I got word she died, the first word that came to mind was "finally" and I was happy... well, relieved is a better word.  I didn't want her to die, but it was better than the suffering she endured for several years.</p><p>I think it would be good for everyone to get it through their heads that life always ends.  It is merely a matter of time and circumstance.</p><p>The parties wanting more than half a million dollars from all of that will likely never see all of it.  Insurance may cover some of it, but who knows what manner of weaseling they will muster up to lighten their own damages.  The wife will not be able to cover the difference unless they were particularly loaded and I don't really care.  I think the money could have been better spent on happier things.  My favorite gifts are the ones I give to others and that are truly appreciated and enjoyed.  I can't imagine someone spending that much money prolonging my own suffering.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I can only use words like " inevitable .
" I 've lost loved ones in various ways... the inevitable grandparents , a parent , a son , friends... It 's just another ending among many types of endings just as there are many types of beginnings .
I 'm neither happy nor sad about either .
I just ca n't think in those terms any longer .
Have I grown up or have I simply grown numb or indifferent .
As I still enjoy life in general and ca n't help but smile at the antics of my youngest son , I doubt numb is what I have become .
I think I have learned better than many how to let go and say goodbye .
That lesson came easy when my mother died after a long agonizing time of waiting... for the inevitable .
When I got word she died , the first word that came to mind was " finally " and I was happy... well , relieved is a better word .
I did n't want her to die , but it was better than the suffering she endured for several years.I think it would be good for everyone to get it through their heads that life always ends .
It is merely a matter of time and circumstance.The parties wanting more than half a million dollars from all of that will likely never see all of it .
Insurance may cover some of it , but who knows what manner of weaseling they will muster up to lighten their own damages .
The wife will not be able to cover the difference unless they were particularly loaded and I do n't really care .
I think the money could have been better spent on happier things .
My favorite gifts are the ones I give to others and that are truly appreciated and enjoyed .
I ca n't imagine someone spending that much money prolonging my own suffering .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can only use words like "inevitable.
"  I've lost loved ones in various ways... the inevitable grandparents, a parent, a son, friends... It's just another ending among many types of endings just as there are many types of beginnings.
I'm neither happy nor sad about either.
I just can't think in those terms any longer.
Have I grown up or have I simply grown numb or indifferent.
As I still enjoy life in general and can't help but smile at the antics of my youngest son, I doubt numb is what I have become.
I think I have learned better than many how to let go and say goodbye.
That lesson came easy when my mother died after a long agonizing time of waiting... for the inevitable.
When I got word she died, the first word that came to mind was "finally" and I was happy... well, relieved is a better word.
I didn't want her to die, but it was better than the suffering she endured for several years.I think it would be good for everyone to get it through their heads that life always ends.
It is merely a matter of time and circumstance.The parties wanting more than half a million dollars from all of that will likely never see all of it.
Insurance may cover some of it, but who knows what manner of weaseling they will muster up to lighten their own damages.
The wife will not be able to cover the difference unless they were particularly loaded and I don't really care.
I think the money could have been better spent on happier things.
My favorite gifts are the ones I give to others and that are truly appreciated and enjoyed.
I can't imagine someone spending that much money prolonging my own suffering.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388524</id>
	<title>Re:Why make the choice?</title>
	<author>nevurthls</author>
	<datestamp>1267968120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't have any numbers to back this up, but the way I've heard it end of life care cost is much higher in the US than in Europe or elsewhere. Not just absolute but also relative to total health care cost. You're wrong.<br>The amount of people in the US that state they want doctors to do everything they can to stay alive a few more days is staggering. Even if it will make them miserable, and success of treatment is measured in adding days to the cancer patient's life, by slowing the progression (while getting the patient more and more sick), not in how it cures them of anything.<br>Ask any cancer doctor: there is a rather large very religious group of US residents that doesn't care about suffering and just does not want to die. So millions are wasted to add suffering and paradoxically postpone their trip to heaven, wasting money that can save other people's live in the process.<br>I believe, like many others have stated, that the time to pull the plug on a terminally ill patient is when they don't want life anymore. Now this won't affect cost here in the US much unless that terribly large religious subset (please, I'm not talking all religious people, don't get me wrong) stops fearing death so much. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror\_management\_theory" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror\_management\_theory</a> [wikipedia.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't have any numbers to back this up , but the way I 've heard it end of life care cost is much higher in the US than in Europe or elsewhere .
Not just absolute but also relative to total health care cost .
You 're wrong.The amount of people in the US that state they want doctors to do everything they can to stay alive a few more days is staggering .
Even if it will make them miserable , and success of treatment is measured in adding days to the cancer patient 's life , by slowing the progression ( while getting the patient more and more sick ) , not in how it cures them of anything.Ask any cancer doctor : there is a rather large very religious group of US residents that does n't care about suffering and just does not want to die .
So millions are wasted to add suffering and paradoxically postpone their trip to heaven , wasting money that can save other people 's live in the process.I believe , like many others have stated , that the time to pull the plug on a terminally ill patient is when they do n't want life anymore .
Now this wo n't affect cost here in the US much unless that terribly large religious subset ( please , I 'm not talking all religious people , do n't get me wrong ) stops fearing death so much .
http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror \ _management \ _theory [ wikipedia.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't have any numbers to back this up, but the way I've heard it end of life care cost is much higher in the US than in Europe or elsewhere.
Not just absolute but also relative to total health care cost.
You're wrong.The amount of people in the US that state they want doctors to do everything they can to stay alive a few more days is staggering.
Even if it will make them miserable, and success of treatment is measured in adding days to the cancer patient's life, by slowing the progression (while getting the patient more and more sick), not in how it cures them of anything.Ask any cancer doctor: there is a rather large very religious group of US residents that doesn't care about suffering and just does not want to die.
So millions are wasted to add suffering and paradoxically postpone their trip to heaven, wasting money that can save other people's live in the process.I believe, like many others have stated, that the time to pull the plug on a terminally ill patient is when they don't want life anymore.
Now this won't affect cost here in the US much unless that terribly large religious subset (please, I'm not talking all religious people, don't get me wrong) stops fearing death so much.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror\_management\_theory [wikipedia.org]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388346</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31401732</id>
	<title>Argh please, grow up.</title>
	<author>jotaeleemeese</author>
	<datestamp>1268069760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We put price on human life every day.</p><p>It is called insurance.</p><p>People that become "uninsurable" are considered too costly for society.</p><p>At a much basic level, more primitive societies just left the unable behind, or the old people would separate from the main group to die on their own.</p><p>We have always made those judgements of value, I resent you don't invite us to your planet where such decisions are not quantified and taken.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We put price on human life every day.It is called insurance.People that become " uninsurable " are considered too costly for society.At a much basic level , more primitive societies just left the unable behind , or the old people would separate from the main group to die on their own.We have always made those judgements of value , I resent you do n't invite us to your planet where such decisions are not quantified and taken .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We put price on human life every day.It is called insurance.People that become "uninsurable" are considered too costly for society.At a much basic level, more primitive societies just left the unable behind, or the old people would separate from the main group to die on their own.We have always made those judgements of value, I resent you don't invite us to your planet where such decisions are not quantified and taken.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388198</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388510</id>
	<title>Re:So how much was for actual medical care?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267968000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's not just insurance, which is why I don't understand the current debate as making insurance the only bad guys.</p><p>I know someone who broke their leg.  While in the waiting room, they asked the staff for a blanket because they were cold.  They got an equivalent of an airline blanket in size and quality.  The hospital charged him $395 for it plus labor.</p><p>Someone else I know needed aspirin.  The staff got him one and charged $725.</p><p>I went to the hospital for stiches.  Got an X-ray to check for metal parts.  Had no insurance.  Got charged $3500 or so.  They didn't even stich, just stapled 20 staples.</p><p>There's a lot wrong with the picture.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's not just insurance , which is why I do n't understand the current debate as making insurance the only bad guys.I know someone who broke their leg .
While in the waiting room , they asked the staff for a blanket because they were cold .
They got an equivalent of an airline blanket in size and quality .
The hospital charged him $ 395 for it plus labor.Someone else I know needed aspirin .
The staff got him one and charged $ 725.I went to the hospital for stiches .
Got an X-ray to check for metal parts .
Had no insurance .
Got charged $ 3500 or so .
They did n't even stich , just stapled 20 staples.There 's a lot wrong with the picture .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's not just insurance, which is why I don't understand the current debate as making insurance the only bad guys.I know someone who broke their leg.
While in the waiting room, they asked the staff for a blanket because they were cold.
They got an equivalent of an airline blanket in size and quality.
The hospital charged him $395 for it plus labor.Someone else I know needed aspirin.
The staff got him one and charged $725.I went to the hospital for stiches.
Got an X-ray to check for metal parts.
Had no insurance.
Got charged $3500 or so.
They didn't even stich, just stapled 20 staples.There's a lot wrong with the picture.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388062</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388672</id>
	<title>Re:Free healthcare (Scandinavia etc.)</title>
	<author>Trivial Solutions</author>
	<datestamp>1267970220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Umm... this is not Sweden.  Apples and Oranges.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Umm... this is not Sweden .
Apples and Oranges .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Umm... this is not Sweden.
Apples and Oranges.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388196</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31392972</id>
	<title>Re:Uh, FUCK no!</title>
	<author>Saint Stephen</author>
	<datestamp>1267995120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>i can't believe my own personal wishes about what I want done with my own body get modded troll - speaks volumes</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>i ca n't believe my own personal wishes about what I want done with my own body get modded troll - speaks volumes</tokentext>
<sentencetext>i can't believe my own personal wishes about what I want done with my own body get modded troll - speaks volumes</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389156</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389156</id>
	<title>Uh, FUCK no!</title>
	<author>Saint Stephen</author>
	<datestamp>1267973460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A friend of mine who read the Obama bill said they DEFINITELY had tiered levels of coverage by age - older people won't get the same level of care.  I guess that's one way to keep health care costs down - don't give it to people!</p><p>It's TOTALLY worth $600K to stay alive two more years.  What the fuck kind of moron thinks otherwise?  If you want to off your own self, go ahead. But me personally, I have a billion years to be dead, and I have made it clear that I want all extraordinary measures taken.  I want to be a huge financial and emotional burden, a brain in a jar connected to wires, just wheel me out of the closet every year and say hey.</p><p>Because whether or not that's better than being dead, it really doesn't change the amount of time I have to be dead, and in my world being on this planet is a pretty damn good thing.  Dignity be damned.</p><p>So stop with the Joseph Mengele type "praticalities"...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A friend of mine who read the Obama bill said they DEFINITELY had tiered levels of coverage by age - older people wo n't get the same level of care .
I guess that 's one way to keep health care costs down - do n't give it to people ! It 's TOTALLY worth $ 600K to stay alive two more years .
What the fuck kind of moron thinks otherwise ?
If you want to off your own self , go ahead .
But me personally , I have a billion years to be dead , and I have made it clear that I want all extraordinary measures taken .
I want to be a huge financial and emotional burden , a brain in a jar connected to wires , just wheel me out of the closet every year and say hey.Because whether or not that 's better than being dead , it really does n't change the amount of time I have to be dead , and in my world being on this planet is a pretty damn good thing .
Dignity be damned.So stop with the Joseph Mengele type " praticalities " .. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A friend of mine who read the Obama bill said they DEFINITELY had tiered levels of coverage by age - older people won't get the same level of care.
I guess that's one way to keep health care costs down - don't give it to people!It's TOTALLY worth $600K to stay alive two more years.
What the fuck kind of moron thinks otherwise?
If you want to off your own self, go ahead.
But me personally, I have a billion years to be dead, and I have made it clear that I want all extraordinary measures taken.
I want to be a huge financial and emotional burden, a brain in a jar connected to wires, just wheel me out of the closet every year and say hey.Because whether or not that's better than being dead, it really doesn't change the amount of time I have to be dead, and in my world being on this planet is a pretty damn good thing.
Dignity be damned.So stop with the Joseph Mengele type "praticalities"...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31391326</id>
	<title>Re:What is that for a question?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267985880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Everybody everywhere should be asking this question: What if that last $400,000 was instead put towards preventative medicine, or a gym membership, or spending less time at work, or fewer processed foods in their diet?</p><p>We're all for spending tons of money doing heroic low-odds procedures, whether it's trying to cure people in the late stages of cancer, or making rescue attempts (that sometimes cost more lives than we were attempting to save), and yet we completely ignore the many small things that could be done to extend people's lives or improve their quality of life for most of their life. Instead, we save it all up for the end, when much of the time it makes the patient's lives worse and extends them relatively briefly. Actually, "save it all up" is too kind: it's more correct to say we burden ourselves for most of our lives with those end-of-life healthcare costs. It's like we're all buying hugely expensive tickets to a lottery where most of the winners will die while they're receiving the prize.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Everybody everywhere should be asking this question : What if that last $ 400,000 was instead put towards preventative medicine , or a gym membership , or spending less time at work , or fewer processed foods in their diet ? We 're all for spending tons of money doing heroic low-odds procedures , whether it 's trying to cure people in the late stages of cancer , or making rescue attempts ( that sometimes cost more lives than we were attempting to save ) , and yet we completely ignore the many small things that could be done to extend people 's lives or improve their quality of life for most of their life .
Instead , we save it all up for the end , when much of the time it makes the patient 's lives worse and extends them relatively briefly .
Actually , " save it all up " is too kind : it 's more correct to say we burden ourselves for most of our lives with those end-of-life healthcare costs .
It 's like we 're all buying hugely expensive tickets to a lottery where most of the winners will die while they 're receiving the prize .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Everybody everywhere should be asking this question: What if that last $400,000 was instead put towards preventative medicine, or a gym membership, or spending less time at work, or fewer processed foods in their diet?We're all for spending tons of money doing heroic low-odds procedures, whether it's trying to cure people in the late stages of cancer, or making rescue attempts (that sometimes cost more lives than we were attempting to save), and yet we completely ignore the many small things that could be done to extend people's lives or improve their quality of life for most of their life.
Instead, we save it all up for the end, when much of the time it makes the patient's lives worse and extends them relatively briefly.
Actually, "save it all up" is too kind: it's more correct to say we burden ourselves for most of our lives with those end-of-life healthcare costs.
It's like we're all buying hugely expensive tickets to a lottery where most of the winners will die while they're receiving the prize.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388064</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388958</id>
	<title>Re:Tis a sad day</title>
	<author>FooAtWFU</author>
	<datestamp>1267972560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
Statistically, the economists say, the value of a human life is about $1 million. At least, if you can do something for safety (e.g. install a railing somewhere, put a better crumple zone in your car) and there's a 1\% chance it will save a life, people are willing to spend up to $10,000, give or take.
</p><p>
That's in the aggregate, mind you. It's a bit harder when it's an individual person.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Statistically , the economists say , the value of a human life is about $ 1 million .
At least , if you can do something for safety ( e.g .
install a railing somewhere , put a better crumple zone in your car ) and there 's a 1 \ % chance it will save a life , people are willing to spend up to $ 10,000 , give or take .
That 's in the aggregate , mind you .
It 's a bit harder when it 's an individual person .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
Statistically, the economists say, the value of a human life is about $1 million.
At least, if you can do something for safety (e.g.
install a railing somewhere, put a better crumple zone in your car) and there's a 1\% chance it will save a life, people are willing to spend up to $10,000, give or take.
That's in the aggregate, mind you.
It's a bit harder when it's an individual person.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388150</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31394004</id>
	<title>Re:Billing and Payments</title>
	<author>TehZorroness</author>
	<datestamp>1267958820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Many people are uninsured simply because they cannot afford it.  If your job doesn't provide health insurance for you, you are left to pay for it yourself.  When you're living on a low income, you have more important things to cover first, before you can even dream of health insurance.  Rent, food for your family, ect.  Both of my parents work in a hospital and deal with this every day.  People without insurance avoid seeing a doctor until their condition declines so much that they must go to the emergency room (where they cannot be denied service).  Instead of taking preemptive measures to health care, they must wait until they are walking the line of death to be treated.  After they are treated, they will disappear (without paying the outrageous bill which they can't afford).   This is a very inefficient model of health care.</p><p>The way I see it, If we can spend so much money starting war with a couple countries which did not threaten us, why can't our government cover health care?  Health care would be the absolute best thing to spend our tax dollars on.  Why don't we invest in healing people instead of maiming and killing them?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Many people are uninsured simply because they can not afford it .
If your job does n't provide health insurance for you , you are left to pay for it yourself .
When you 're living on a low income , you have more important things to cover first , before you can even dream of health insurance .
Rent , food for your family , ect .
Both of my parents work in a hospital and deal with this every day .
People without insurance avoid seeing a doctor until their condition declines so much that they must go to the emergency room ( where they can not be denied service ) .
Instead of taking preemptive measures to health care , they must wait until they are walking the line of death to be treated .
After they are treated , they will disappear ( without paying the outrageous bill which they ca n't afford ) .
This is a very inefficient model of health care.The way I see it , If we can spend so much money starting war with a couple countries which did not threaten us , why ca n't our government cover health care ?
Health care would be the absolute best thing to spend our tax dollars on .
Why do n't we invest in healing people instead of maiming and killing them ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Many people are uninsured simply because they cannot afford it.
If your job doesn't provide health insurance for you, you are left to pay for it yourself.
When you're living on a low income, you have more important things to cover first, before you can even dream of health insurance.
Rent, food for your family, ect.
Both of my parents work in a hospital and deal with this every day.
People without insurance avoid seeing a doctor until their condition declines so much that they must go to the emergency room (where they cannot be denied service).
Instead of taking preemptive measures to health care, they must wait until they are walking the line of death to be treated.
After they are treated, they will disappear (without paying the outrageous bill which they can't afford).
This is a very inefficient model of health care.The way I see it, If we can spend so much money starting war with a couple countries which did not threaten us, why can't our government cover health care?
Health care would be the absolute best thing to spend our tax dollars on.
Why don't we invest in healing people instead of maiming and killing them?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31391312</id>
	<title>Re:And the point is?</title>
	<author>cts5678</author>
	<datestamp>1267985700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The point is, people need to figure out what they want before they get in the situation, and then communicate their desires to their next-of-kin.  The problem is, this lady and her husband never apparently did that, and left it to the docs, hospitals and insurance companies to call the shots.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The point is , people need to figure out what they want before they get in the situation , and then communicate their desires to their next-of-kin .
The problem is , this lady and her husband never apparently did that , and left it to the docs , hospitals and insurance companies to call the shots .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The point is, people need to figure out what they want before they get in the situation, and then communicate their desires to their next-of-kin.
The problem is, this lady and her husband never apparently did that, and left it to the docs, hospitals and insurance companies to call the shots.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388790</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389922</id>
	<title>Re:So how much was for actual medical care?</title>
	<author>AGMW</author>
	<datestamp>1267977840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>There is a HUGE amount of overhead in US health care starting with a massive markup on medicine which isn't seen elsewhere and ending with the support of a lot of middlemen.
It doesn't matter if it's private or public - what matters is removing the leeches and profiteers from the system and turning it back into medicine instead of a protection racket pretending to be insurance and hospitals where care is an afterthought.  The doctors are not the ones getting rich and if you want to see a nurse laugh ask them if they are rich.
I doubt that the same amount of care elsewhere with the same treatments under a public system would have cost the taxpayer anywhere near one fifth of that.  Remember folks, it's still a drain on the economy even if rich sick people are the ones getting ripped off instead of the taxpayer - it still hurts everyone to an extent.</p></div><p>
My Dad was a doctor - a GP - in the UK and back in the 80's I remember him telling me about "medical insurance" for Drs, in case you get sued. He told me that Drs in the US paid more in insurance premiums than he <b>earned</b> per year! Who's benefiting from that and who's paying the cost!
</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>There is a HUGE amount of overhead in US health care starting with a massive markup on medicine which is n't seen elsewhere and ending with the support of a lot of middlemen .
It does n't matter if it 's private or public - what matters is removing the leeches and profiteers from the system and turning it back into medicine instead of a protection racket pretending to be insurance and hospitals where care is an afterthought .
The doctors are not the ones getting rich and if you want to see a nurse laugh ask them if they are rich .
I doubt that the same amount of care elsewhere with the same treatments under a public system would have cost the taxpayer anywhere near one fifth of that .
Remember folks , it 's still a drain on the economy even if rich sick people are the ones getting ripped off instead of the taxpayer - it still hurts everyone to an extent .
My Dad was a doctor - a GP - in the UK and back in the 80 's I remember him telling me about " medical insurance " for Drs , in case you get sued .
He told me that Drs in the US paid more in insurance premiums than he earned per year !
Who 's benefiting from that and who 's paying the cost !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is a HUGE amount of overhead in US health care starting with a massive markup on medicine which isn't seen elsewhere and ending with the support of a lot of middlemen.
It doesn't matter if it's private or public - what matters is removing the leeches and profiteers from the system and turning it back into medicine instead of a protection racket pretending to be insurance and hospitals where care is an afterthought.
The doctors are not the ones getting rich and if you want to see a nurse laugh ask them if they are rich.
I doubt that the same amount of care elsewhere with the same treatments under a public system would have cost the taxpayer anywhere near one fifth of that.
Remember folks, it's still a drain on the economy even if rich sick people are the ones getting ripped off instead of the taxpayer - it still hurts everyone to an extent.
My Dad was a doctor - a GP - in the UK and back in the 80's I remember him telling me about "medical insurance" for Drs, in case you get sued.
He told me that Drs in the US paid more in insurance premiums than he earned per year!
Who's benefiting from that and who's paying the cost!

	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388062</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31405614</id>
	<title>what a stupid article</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268044080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I started reading it. Nevermind. Too long.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I started reading it .
Nevermind. Too long .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I started reading it.
Nevermind. Too long.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388696</id>
	<title>Re:Billing and Payments</title>
	<author>barzok</author>
	<datestamp>1267970520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The uninsured may pay less. Obviously the hospital can still operate when the full billed price is negotiated way down (I see this regularly on the statements from my insurance company). The hospital bills high rates because they know it'll get negotiated down, but it'll still be higher than their actual costs. They know the insurance company will pay most of the time anyway.</p><p>IOW, they bill ridiculously high rates because they can get away with it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The uninsured may pay less .
Obviously the hospital can still operate when the full billed price is negotiated way down ( I see this regularly on the statements from my insurance company ) .
The hospital bills high rates because they know it 'll get negotiated down , but it 'll still be higher than their actual costs .
They know the insurance company will pay most of the time anyway.IOW , they bill ridiculously high rates because they can get away with it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The uninsured may pay less.
Obviously the hospital can still operate when the full billed price is negotiated way down (I see this regularly on the statements from my insurance company).
The hospital bills high rates because they know it'll get negotiated down, but it'll still be higher than their actual costs.
They know the insurance company will pay most of the time anyway.IOW, they bill ridiculously high rates because they can get away with it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388448</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31398818</id>
	<title>Possibly the wrong question</title>
	<author>jandersen</author>
	<datestamp>1268046720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Do we all have the right to live? Well, of course, and in my opinion it shouldn't be a question of money, really. Most hospital treatments are obscenenly expensive because medical companies are maximizing their profit, not because it really is that expensive to develop the drugs or treatments concerned.</p><p>But sometimes we see that this "right to life" becomes a duty to keep living, even when you don't want to; to me, that is the real question.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do we all have the right to live ?
Well , of course , and in my opinion it should n't be a question of money , really .
Most hospital treatments are obscenenly expensive because medical companies are maximizing their profit , not because it really is that expensive to develop the drugs or treatments concerned.But sometimes we see that this " right to life " becomes a duty to keep living , even when you do n't want to ; to me , that is the real question .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Do we all have the right to live?
Well, of course, and in my opinion it shouldn't be a question of money, really.
Most hospital treatments are obscenenly expensive because medical companies are maximizing their profit, not because it really is that expensive to develop the drugs or treatments concerned.But sometimes we see that this "right to life" becomes a duty to keep living, even when you don't want to; to me, that is the real question.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388240</id>
	<title>Anonymous Coward</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267964640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Money doesn't come out of thin air (as much as the US government might think otherwise). We all are paying this $618k bill.</p><p>Stories like this happen every day. Over a year, this is many millions of dollars which you and I are somehow paying for.</p><p>How much of your money are you willing to spend to prolong a total stranger's life?</p><p>$1? $10? $100? $1000000.</p><p>IMO, America needs to start being realistic about money and the fact there are limited resources available.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Money does n't come out of thin air ( as much as the US government might think otherwise ) .
We all are paying this $ 618k bill.Stories like this happen every day .
Over a year , this is many millions of dollars which you and I are somehow paying for.How much of your money are you willing to spend to prolong a total stranger 's life ? $ 1 ?
$ 10 ? $ 100 ?
$ 1000000.IMO , America needs to start being realistic about money and the fact there are limited resources available .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Money doesn't come out of thin air (as much as the US government might think otherwise).
We all are paying this $618k bill.Stories like this happen every day.
Over a year, this is many millions of dollars which you and I are somehow paying for.How much of your money are you willing to spend to prolong a total stranger's life?$1?
$10? $100?
$1000000.IMO, America needs to start being realistic about money and the fact there are limited resources available.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389946</id>
	<title>anonymous coward</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267978020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Amazing that we value the dollar so much when it comes to healthcare. We didn't even blink when we spent&gt;$1trillion to save banks from financial mass destruction. (Isnt that scare tactic getting a little thin?) There is still no inflation with all those greenbacks printed.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Amazing that we value the dollar so much when it comes to healthcare .
We did n't even blink when we spent &gt; $ 1trillion to save banks from financial mass destruction .
( Isnt that scare tactic getting a little thin ?
) There is still no inflation with all those greenbacks printed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Amazing that we value the dollar so much when it comes to healthcare.
We didn't even blink when we spent&gt;$1trillion to save banks from financial mass destruction.
(Isnt that scare tactic getting a little thin?
) There is still no inflation with all those greenbacks printed.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390544</id>
	<title>money better spent elsewhere..</title>
	<author>zcold</author>
	<datestamp>1267981620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>the time to quite is when you cant afford it... The money would have been better spent getting him a canadian citizenship, legally or illegally and having him die peacefully.. or even buying that a ton weed and diloteds...</htmltext>
<tokenext>the time to quite is when you cant afford it... The money would have been better spent getting him a canadian citizenship , legally or illegally and having him die peacefully.. or even buying that a ton weed and diloteds.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>the time to quite is when you cant afford it... The money would have been better spent getting him a canadian citizenship, legally or illegally and having him die peacefully.. or even buying that a ton weed and diloteds...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388024</id>
	<title>once the inheritance is secured</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267961280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Since women are only in marriage for the money, I would say it's time to quit once the husband is too weak to change his will.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Since women are only in marriage for the money , I would say it 's time to quit once the husband is too weak to change his will .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Since women are only in marriage for the money, I would say it's time to quit once the husband is too weak to change his will.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389162</id>
	<title>An extra $22K would have solved the problem...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267973520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>640K should be enough for anyone.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>640K should be enough for anyone .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>640K should be enough for anyone.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389518</id>
	<title>Re:Just $200 more...</title>
	<author>Subm</author>
	<datestamp>1267975380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Or $2,000 less. Or they could charge an extra 616,816 cents.</p><p>Or $618,616 less would have given a palindrome and rotational and reflection symmetry.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Or $ 2,000 less .
Or they could charge an extra 616,816 cents.Or $ 618,616 less would have given a palindrome and rotational and reflection symmetry .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or $2,000 less.
Or they could charge an extra 616,816 cents.Or $618,616 less would have given a palindrome and rotational and reflection symmetry.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388056</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31394452</id>
	<title>Re:I think that it's pretty much always worth it</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267961160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"At some point it'll be understood".</p><p>Here's the "secret" you seem to have missed out on in biology class. Cancer is not one illness, any more than "my car broke down" is a specific fault in your vehicle.</p><p>Cancer is the label for the set of illnesses characterised by cells in the patient's own body growing uncontrollably and in the wrong place because their DNA programming has been damaged. There are many cancers as there are types of cell to damage and ways to damage them. Curing one cancer tells you almost nothing about how to cure the next, and there are an unlimited supply of possible cancers.</p><p>So we aren't going to ever have a "cure for cancer" any more than you're going to buy a car that can never break down.</p><p>There are some rules of thumb, some parts of the body are more vulnerable to cancer than others, some lifestyles or activities increase your chances of cancer developing (most famously, smoking, ie inhaling tobacco smoke). But there are no certainties and we've picked the low hanging fruit. There have been plenty of rich, famous people with lung cancer (often from smoking) but we don't have anything resembling a cure, and not for want of trying.</p><p>Ultimately cancer is the curse of DNA based life forms. If we escape it, it won't be from improvements in medical care, but from something far more radical and most distant in our future.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" At some point it 'll be understood " .Here 's the " secret " you seem to have missed out on in biology class .
Cancer is not one illness , any more than " my car broke down " is a specific fault in your vehicle.Cancer is the label for the set of illnesses characterised by cells in the patient 's own body growing uncontrollably and in the wrong place because their DNA programming has been damaged .
There are many cancers as there are types of cell to damage and ways to damage them .
Curing one cancer tells you almost nothing about how to cure the next , and there are an unlimited supply of possible cancers.So we are n't going to ever have a " cure for cancer " any more than you 're going to buy a car that can never break down.There are some rules of thumb , some parts of the body are more vulnerable to cancer than others , some lifestyles or activities increase your chances of cancer developing ( most famously , smoking , ie inhaling tobacco smoke ) .
But there are no certainties and we 've picked the low hanging fruit .
There have been plenty of rich , famous people with lung cancer ( often from smoking ) but we do n't have anything resembling a cure , and not for want of trying.Ultimately cancer is the curse of DNA based life forms .
If we escape it , it wo n't be from improvements in medical care , but from something far more radical and most distant in our future .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"At some point it'll be understood".Here's the "secret" you seem to have missed out on in biology class.
Cancer is not one illness, any more than "my car broke down" is a specific fault in your vehicle.Cancer is the label for the set of illnesses characterised by cells in the patient's own body growing uncontrollably and in the wrong place because their DNA programming has been damaged.
There are many cancers as there are types of cell to damage and ways to damage them.
Curing one cancer tells you almost nothing about how to cure the next, and there are an unlimited supply of possible cancers.So we aren't going to ever have a "cure for cancer" any more than you're going to buy a car that can never break down.There are some rules of thumb, some parts of the body are more vulnerable to cancer than others, some lifestyles or activities increase your chances of cancer developing (most famously, smoking, ie inhaling tobacco smoke).
But there are no certainties and we've picked the low hanging fruit.
There have been plenty of rich, famous people with lung cancer (often from smoking) but we don't have anything resembling a cure, and not for want of trying.Ultimately cancer is the curse of DNA based life forms.
If we escape it, it won't be from improvements in medical care, but from something far more radical and most distant in our future.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388428</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388048</id>
	<title>How much is your life worth?</title>
	<author>elucido</author>
	<datestamp>1267961760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Your life is worth your salary. If you don't like it, perhaps you should take it up with your boss?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Your life is worth your salary .
If you do n't like it , perhaps you should take it up with your boss ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Your life is worth your salary.
If you don't like it, perhaps you should take it up with your boss?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388406</id>
	<title>600K is quite low</title>
	<author>140Mandak262Jamuna</author>
	<datestamp>1267966980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>The cancer must have been one of the aggressive ones. I see the 600K billed is on the low side. The actual payments to the providers would have been less 125K. Typically the terminal patients generate 1M$ in bills in their last 24 months. And generate about 300K in actual payments if they die in a hospital.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The cancer must have been one of the aggressive ones .
I see the 600K billed is on the low side .
The actual payments to the providers would have been less 125K .
Typically the terminal patients generate 1M $ in bills in their last 24 months .
And generate about 300K in actual payments if they die in a hospital .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The cancer must have been one of the aggressive ones.
I see the 600K billed is on the low side.
The actual payments to the providers would have been less 125K.
Typically the terminal patients generate 1M$ in bills in their last 24 months.
And generate about 300K in actual payments if they die in a hospital.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31393292</id>
	<title>Re:So how much was for actual medical care?</title>
	<author>sjames</author>
	<datestamp>1267954020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's what happens when we allow "the market" a free reign when the conditions for a healthy free market don't exist. Were there ACTUALLY a market, the hospital would benefit from charging less because then they might actually have patients rather than being a big empty for exactly the same reason no grocery store charges $100/pound for ground beef. Since there is nothing like a healthy market, the outrageous prices are the natural result of applying an inappropriate economic system.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's what happens when we allow " the market " a free reign when the conditions for a healthy free market do n't exist .
Were there ACTUALLY a market , the hospital would benefit from charging less because then they might actually have patients rather than being a big empty for exactly the same reason no grocery store charges $ 100/pound for ground beef .
Since there is nothing like a healthy market , the outrageous prices are the natural result of applying an inappropriate economic system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's what happens when we allow "the market" a free reign when the conditions for a healthy free market don't exist.
Were there ACTUALLY a market, the hospital would benefit from charging less because then they might actually have patients rather than being a big empty for exactly the same reason no grocery store charges $100/pound for ground beef.
Since there is nothing like a healthy market, the outrageous prices are the natural result of applying an inappropriate economic system.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389118</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390460</id>
	<title>Re:Selfish?</title>
	<author>SydShamino</author>
	<datestamp>1267981140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Have you taken the time to create a living will that says this?  Your slashdot post doesn't count, and with nothing else your parents (or spouse or children) may end up making the decisions based on their emotions, not yours, if you are unable to communication your wishes.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Have you taken the time to create a living will that says this ?
Your slashdot post does n't count , and with nothing else your parents ( or spouse or children ) may end up making the decisions based on their emotions , not yours , if you are unable to communication your wishes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Have you taken the time to create a living will that says this?
Your slashdot post doesn't count, and with nothing else your parents (or spouse or children) may end up making the decisions based on their emotions, not yours, if you are unable to communication your wishes.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388216</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389118</id>
	<title>Re:So how much was for actual medical care?</title>
	<author>FooAtWFU</author>
	<datestamp>1267973280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Ask yourself, "If they charged me less, who would benefit?"<p>
Now find some way to make "the hospital" part of that answer.</p><p>
Pretty hard, isn't it?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ask yourself , " If they charged me less , who would benefit ?
" Now find some way to make " the hospital " part of that answer .
Pretty hard , is n't it ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ask yourself, "If they charged me less, who would benefit?
"
Now find some way to make "the hospital" part of that answer.
Pretty hard, isn't it?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388510</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388746</id>
	<title>Re:Tis a sad day</title>
	<author>AmazinglySmooth</author>
	<datestamp>1267971180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There really isn't a better way--maybe Yuan?</htmltext>
<tokenext>There really is n't a better way--maybe Yuan ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There really isn't a better way--maybe Yuan?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388150</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390300</id>
	<title>Well</title>
	<author>ShooterNeo</author>
	<datestamp>1267980120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It costs about $50k-$100k to have a person's brain cryogenically frozen.  For those of us who believe in the laws of physics, the chances of eventually reviving a dead mind or at least recovering all of the memories and personality information is excellent.  This would be a much better alternative than a year or two of excruciating suffering ending in a permanent death, and would be cheaper as well.  I'm hoping reversible cryogenic freezing can be developed in my lifetime, so that we can definitely show that cryo patients are not actually dead, and make this procedure available to all.  ("reversible" freezing would be a method using enough cryo-protectants that you could theoretically thaw out the brain and it would work.  You wouldn't actually plan to do this for a century or two, but you could convince the general public that these patients were still alive)</p><p>One idea I've thought of to improve the method : how about blasting the frozen heads into space, and putting them into an orbit that keeps a planet between the space capsule and the sun?  Then you wouldn't need to keep refilling the liquid nitrogen, or worry about something happening to the patients.  Each frozen head would weigh about 5 kilograms : at today's $10,000/kilogram launch prices, that would be about $50,000 a patient.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It costs about $ 50k- $ 100k to have a person 's brain cryogenically frozen .
For those of us who believe in the laws of physics , the chances of eventually reviving a dead mind or at least recovering all of the memories and personality information is excellent .
This would be a much better alternative than a year or two of excruciating suffering ending in a permanent death , and would be cheaper as well .
I 'm hoping reversible cryogenic freezing can be developed in my lifetime , so that we can definitely show that cryo patients are not actually dead , and make this procedure available to all .
( " reversible " freezing would be a method using enough cryo-protectants that you could theoretically thaw out the brain and it would work .
You would n't actually plan to do this for a century or two , but you could convince the general public that these patients were still alive ) One idea I 've thought of to improve the method : how about blasting the frozen heads into space , and putting them into an orbit that keeps a planet between the space capsule and the sun ?
Then you would n't need to keep refilling the liquid nitrogen , or worry about something happening to the patients .
Each frozen head would weigh about 5 kilograms : at today 's $ 10,000/kilogram launch prices , that would be about $ 50,000 a patient .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It costs about $50k-$100k to have a person's brain cryogenically frozen.
For those of us who believe in the laws of physics, the chances of eventually reviving a dead mind or at least recovering all of the memories and personality information is excellent.
This would be a much better alternative than a year or two of excruciating suffering ending in a permanent death, and would be cheaper as well.
I'm hoping reversible cryogenic freezing can be developed in my lifetime, so that we can definitely show that cryo patients are not actually dead, and make this procedure available to all.
("reversible" freezing would be a method using enough cryo-protectants that you could theoretically thaw out the brain and it would work.
You wouldn't actually plan to do this for a century or two, but you could convince the general public that these patients were still alive)One idea I've thought of to improve the method : how about blasting the frozen heads into space, and putting them into an orbit that keeps a planet between the space capsule and the sun?
Then you wouldn't need to keep refilling the liquid nitrogen, or worry about something happening to the patients.
Each frozen head would weigh about 5 kilograms : at today's $10,000/kilogram launch prices, that would be about $50,000 a patient.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388392</id>
	<title>what?  why?</title>
	<author>user138</author>
	<datestamp>1267966740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>As someone who as dealt with this issue...   If it were your family, would you pay the cost?  It's up to the patient.   F the bills... it's about being alive.   Why is this on slashdot...

ya.. making money on sick people is (as far as i can figure) wrong.    and contrary to being a caring human (and yes i understand the capital consequences of this argument).

j.</htmltext>
<tokenext>As someone who as dealt with this issue... If it were your family , would you pay the cost ?
It 's up to the patient .
F the bills... it 's about being alive .
Why is this on slashdot.. . ya.. making money on sick people is ( as far as i can figure ) wrong .
and contrary to being a caring human ( and yes i understand the capital consequences of this argument ) .
j .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As someone who as dealt with this issue...   If it were your family, would you pay the cost?
It's up to the patient.
F the bills... it's about being alive.
Why is this on slashdot...

ya.. making money on sick people is (as far as i can figure) wrong.
and contrary to being a caring human (and yes i understand the capital consequences of this argument).
j.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388090</id>
	<title>Easy</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267962360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>It's time to quit when the patient says it's time, and it's not the business of the spouse, the church, or the government to decide otherwise.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's time to quit when the patient says it 's time , and it 's not the business of the spouse , the church , or the government to decide otherwise .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's time to quit when the patient says it's time, and it's not the business of the spouse, the church, or the government to decide otherwise.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388506</id>
	<title>Death cult</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267967940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>No one can say for sure if the treatments helped extend his life</p></div></blockquote><p>And it doesn't seem to be about that; there is rather a sort of ritual of "having done everything possible".</p><p>The ancient Egyptians embalmed and mummified their dead, and built elaborate stone tombs (the wealthier, the grander); we hook people up to IVs and give them expensive but questionable treatments (the wealthier, the more intensive).</p><p>But we still die alone.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>No one can say for sure if the treatments helped extend his lifeAnd it does n't seem to be about that ; there is rather a sort of ritual of " having done everything possible " .The ancient Egyptians embalmed and mummified their dead , and built elaborate stone tombs ( the wealthier , the grander ) ; we hook people up to IVs and give them expensive but questionable treatments ( the wealthier , the more intensive ) .But we still die alone .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No one can say for sure if the treatments helped extend his lifeAnd it doesn't seem to be about that; there is rather a sort of ritual of "having done everything possible".The ancient Egyptians embalmed and mummified their dead, and built elaborate stone tombs (the wealthier, the grander); we hook people up to IVs and give them expensive but questionable treatments (the wealthier, the more intensive).But we still die alone.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388216</id>
	<title>Selfish?</title>
	<author>ebonum</author>
	<datestamp>1267964160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If I was in his position, I would have let it go.  When the odds of a successful outcome are low, I would consider it a hugely selfish act to blow hundreds of thousands of dollars on my own treatment.  If I was really rich, perhaps I would spend more of my own money on a few last ditch attempts and continue the treatment.  Even then, when I reach the point that I can no longer be active enough to enjoy simple pleasures outside without assistance, I'd let it go and leave the rest to family or donate to a good cause.  I completely fail to understand why anyone should be forced to pay for my personal expenses.</p><p>Enjoy life while you can when you are active and healthy.  All good things do end.  When you are bed ridden and on the way out, let nature take its course.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If I was in his position , I would have let it go .
When the odds of a successful outcome are low , I would consider it a hugely selfish act to blow hundreds of thousands of dollars on my own treatment .
If I was really rich , perhaps I would spend more of my own money on a few last ditch attempts and continue the treatment .
Even then , when I reach the point that I can no longer be active enough to enjoy simple pleasures outside without assistance , I 'd let it go and leave the rest to family or donate to a good cause .
I completely fail to understand why anyone should be forced to pay for my personal expenses.Enjoy life while you can when you are active and healthy .
All good things do end .
When you are bed ridden and on the way out , let nature take its course .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If I was in his position, I would have let it go.
When the odds of a successful outcome are low, I would consider it a hugely selfish act to blow hundreds of thousands of dollars on my own treatment.
If I was really rich, perhaps I would spend more of my own money on a few last ditch attempts and continue the treatment.
Even then, when I reach the point that I can no longer be active enough to enjoy simple pleasures outside without assistance, I'd let it go and leave the rest to family or donate to a good cause.
I completely fail to understand why anyone should be forced to pay for my personal expenses.Enjoy life while you can when you are active and healthy.
All good things do end.
When you are bed ridden and on the way out, let nature take its course.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390484</id>
	<title>Re:Tis a sad day</title>
	<author>rogerz</author>
	<datestamp>1267981320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>It is a sad day when one decides to value the dollar worth of a human life.</p></div><p>Well, if you decided to spend $0 dollars on saving your own life, you wouldn't need to decide its dollar value.  However, somehow what I think you mean is that you think that *I* should not care about how much money I am forced to spend on saving your life.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It is a sad day when one decides to value the dollar worth of a human life.Well , if you decided to spend $ 0 dollars on saving your own life , you would n't need to decide its dollar value .
However , somehow what I think you mean is that you think that * I * should not care about how much money I am forced to spend on saving your life .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is a sad day when one decides to value the dollar worth of a human life.Well, if you decided to spend $0 dollars on saving your own life, you wouldn't need to decide its dollar value.
However, somehow what I think you mean is that you think that *I* should not care about how much money I am forced to spend on saving your life.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388150</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389080</id>
	<title>Re:So how much was for actual medical care?</title>
	<author>cnaumann</author>
	<datestamp>1267973040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Medical costs really don't mean anything. There is no rational or justification for any of it. They are just made-up numbers. It would be difficult enough to make judgement calls on real numbers, but it is impossible with fake numbers.</p><p>It is also very reasonable to spend a lot of money fighting the condition that will/does kill you. Where else are you going to spend it?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Medical costs really do n't mean anything .
There is no rational or justification for any of it .
They are just made-up numbers .
It would be difficult enough to make judgement calls on real numbers , but it is impossible with fake numbers.It is also very reasonable to spend a lot of money fighting the condition that will/does kill you .
Where else are you going to spend it ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Medical costs really don't mean anything.
There is no rational or justification for any of it.
They are just made-up numbers.
It would be difficult enough to make judgement calls on real numbers, but it is impossible with fake numbers.It is also very reasonable to spend a lot of money fighting the condition that will/does kill you.
Where else are you going to spend it?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388510</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31396586</id>
	<title>Re:Selfish?</title>
	<author>arminw</author>
	<datestamp>1267976160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>....If I was in his position, I would have let it go.....</p><p>I heartily agree with you, but apparently the moderator classified your opinion as flame bait. The Slashdot moderation system is broken, because it stifles minority voices who disagree with the mostly left-wing liberal/secular minded majority here.</p><p>For centuries, it was not possible for humans to intervene significantly when somebody got desperately ill. Nowadays medical science can do astounding things, but it also comes with significant costs. In the end however, the patients and the doctors, not whoever happens to be paying the bill, should decide at what point nature should be allowed to take its course.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>....If I was in his position , I would have let it go.....I heartily agree with you , but apparently the moderator classified your opinion as flame bait .
The Slashdot moderation system is broken , because it stifles minority voices who disagree with the mostly left-wing liberal/secular minded majority here.For centuries , it was not possible for humans to intervene significantly when somebody got desperately ill. Nowadays medical science can do astounding things , but it also comes with significant costs .
In the end however , the patients and the doctors , not whoever happens to be paying the bill , should decide at what point nature should be allowed to take its course .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>....If I was in his position, I would have let it go.....I heartily agree with you, but apparently the moderator classified your opinion as flame bait.
The Slashdot moderation system is broken, because it stifles minority voices who disagree with the mostly left-wing liberal/secular minded majority here.For centuries, it was not possible for humans to intervene significantly when somebody got desperately ill. Nowadays medical science can do astounding things, but it also comes with significant costs.
In the end however, the patients and the doctors, not whoever happens to be paying the bill, should decide at what point nature should be allowed to take its course.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388216</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31394180</id>
	<title>Adequate vitamin D can help prevent some cancer...</title>
	<author>Paul Fernhout</author>
	<datestamp>1267959840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just to note that curing vitamin D deficiency (very inexpensive, either from sunlight or supplements) can prevent many cases of cancer:<br>
  <a href="http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/cancerMain.shtml" title="vitamindcouncil.org">http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/cancerMain.shtml</a> [vitamindcouncil.org] <br>as well as many cases of heart disease, stroke, hypertension, autoimmune diseases, diabetes, depression, chronic pain, osteoarthritis, osteoporosis, muscle weakness, muscle wasting, birth defects, periodontal disease, influenza, autism, and more (there are different degrees of scientific evidence for those). See:<br>
  <a href="http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/" title="vitamindcouncil.org">http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/</a> [vitamindcouncil.org] </p><p>But vitamin D supplements or sunbathing is so cheap, there is not profit in telling people about this...<br>
  "Treating Disease With Vitamin D"<br>
  <a href="http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/treatment.shtml" title="vitamindcouncil.org">http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/treatment.shtml</a> [vitamindcouncil.org] <br>
  "Why Michelle Obama is More Likely to Die From Breast Cancer than Hillary Clinton"<br>
  <a href="http://curtisduncan.blogspot.com/2009/10/why-michelle-obama-is-more-likely-to.html" title="blogspot.com">http://curtisduncan.blogspot.com/2009/10/why-michelle-obama-is-more-likely-to.html</a> [blogspot.com] </p><p>There are other inexpensive treatments to prevent or cure cancer with various degrees of anecdotal evidence (like IV vitamin C as a cancer treatment),<br>
  <a href="http://www.medpagetoday.com/HematologyOncology/OtherCancers/2938" title="medpagetoday.com">http://www.medpagetoday.com/HematologyOncology/OtherCancers/2938</a> [medpagetoday.com] <br>but curing vitamin D deficiency (now widespread as we all spend more time indoors at computers) has lots of scientific evidence about its value in relation to cancer and a wide variety of other things because vitamin D is essential to regulating the expression of thousands of gene. That is why being vitamin D deficient has such widespread negative effects -- sort of like deleting thousands of files at random on your hard drive... What's amazing is that humans survive at all with so little sunlight... So big is this effect of vitamin D deficiency on health that for Western Europe alone it has been suggested:<br>
  "A Decade Of Vitamin D Supplementation Would Save $4.4 Trillion Over A Decade; Would Save $1346 Per Person Per Annum"<br>
  <a href="http://www.lewrockwell.com/sardi/sardi111.html" title="lewrockwell.com">http://www.lewrockwell.com/sardi/sardi111.html</a> [lewrockwell.com] </p><p>Where are the US CDC, FDA, AMA, and other acronyms doing about all this? Good question...</p><p>Essentially, the US RDA for vitamin D is about ten times too low, as it was set decades ago for healthy bones, not a healthy heart, a healthy brain, a healthy immune system, or a healthy weight. The toxicity fears have also been overblown (vitamin A is much more toxic, and according to Dr. Cannell who runs the vitamin D council website, many people through supplements have too much vitamin A which interferes with vitamin D.)<br>
  <a href="http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/vitaminDToxicity.shtml" title="vitamindcouncil.org">http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/vitaminDToxicity.shtml</a> [vitamindcouncil.org] <br>
  <a href="http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/newsletter/2008-december.shtml" title="vitamindcouncil.org">http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/newsletter/2008-december.shtml</a> [vitamindcouncil.org] </p><p>Although just how much vitamin D as supplements you need depends on things like your weight, your skin color, your behavior outdoors, your latitude, your personal biochemestry, and so on, so regular blood tests are important (even though people still disagree over what the optimum level should be). Example:<br>
    <a href="http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2009/01/why-rda-for-vitamin-d.html" title="blogspot.com">http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2009/01/why-rda-for-vitamin-d.html</a> [blogspot.com] </p><p>The average light skinned human adult in a bathing suit at moderate latitudes under noonday summer sun will make 10,000 to 20,000 IUs of vitamin D in twenty minutes or so in their skin, and up to 50,000 units before their skin turns pink (sunburns are of course bad for you). The reaction is self</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just to note that curing vitamin D deficiency ( very inexpensive , either from sunlight or supplements ) can prevent many cases of cancer : http : //www.vitamindcouncil.org/cancerMain.shtml [ vitamindcouncil.org ] as well as many cases of heart disease , stroke , hypertension , autoimmune diseases , diabetes , depression , chronic pain , osteoarthritis , osteoporosis , muscle weakness , muscle wasting , birth defects , periodontal disease , influenza , autism , and more ( there are different degrees of scientific evidence for those ) .
See : http : //www.vitamindcouncil.org/ [ vitamindcouncil.org ] But vitamin D supplements or sunbathing is so cheap , there is not profit in telling people about this.. . " Treating Disease With Vitamin D " http : //www.vitamindcouncil.org/treatment.shtml [ vitamindcouncil.org ] " Why Michelle Obama is More Likely to Die From Breast Cancer than Hillary Clinton " http : //curtisduncan.blogspot.com/2009/10/why-michelle-obama-is-more-likely-to.html [ blogspot.com ] There are other inexpensive treatments to prevent or cure cancer with various degrees of anecdotal evidence ( like IV vitamin C as a cancer treatment ) , http : //www.medpagetoday.com/HematologyOncology/OtherCancers/2938 [ medpagetoday.com ] but curing vitamin D deficiency ( now widespread as we all spend more time indoors at computers ) has lots of scientific evidence about its value in relation to cancer and a wide variety of other things because vitamin D is essential to regulating the expression of thousands of gene .
That is why being vitamin D deficient has such widespread negative effects -- sort of like deleting thousands of files at random on your hard drive... What 's amazing is that humans survive at all with so little sunlight... So big is this effect of vitamin D deficiency on health that for Western Europe alone it has been suggested : " A Decade Of Vitamin D Supplementation Would Save $ 4.4 Trillion Over A Decade ; Would Save $ 1346 Per Person Per Annum " http : //www.lewrockwell.com/sardi/sardi111.html [ lewrockwell.com ] Where are the US CDC , FDA , AMA , and other acronyms doing about all this ?
Good question...Essentially , the US RDA for vitamin D is about ten times too low , as it was set decades ago for healthy bones , not a healthy heart , a healthy brain , a healthy immune system , or a healthy weight .
The toxicity fears have also been overblown ( vitamin A is much more toxic , and according to Dr. Cannell who runs the vitamin D council website , many people through supplements have too much vitamin A which interferes with vitamin D. ) http : //www.vitamindcouncil.org/vitaminDToxicity.shtml [ vitamindcouncil.org ] http : //www.vitamindcouncil.org/newsletter/2008-december.shtml [ vitamindcouncil.org ] Although just how much vitamin D as supplements you need depends on things like your weight , your skin color , your behavior outdoors , your latitude , your personal biochemestry , and so on , so regular blood tests are important ( even though people still disagree over what the optimum level should be ) .
Example : http : //heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2009/01/why-rda-for-vitamin-d.html [ blogspot.com ] The average light skinned human adult in a bathing suit at moderate latitudes under noonday summer sun will make 10,000 to 20,000 IUs of vitamin D in twenty minutes or so in their skin , and up to 50,000 units before their skin turns pink ( sunburns are of course bad for you ) .
The reaction is self</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just to note that curing vitamin D deficiency (very inexpensive, either from sunlight or supplements) can prevent many cases of cancer:
  http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/cancerMain.shtml [vitamindcouncil.org] as well as many cases of heart disease, stroke, hypertension, autoimmune diseases, diabetes, depression, chronic pain, osteoarthritis, osteoporosis, muscle weakness, muscle wasting, birth defects, periodontal disease, influenza, autism, and more (there are different degrees of scientific evidence for those).
See:
  http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/ [vitamindcouncil.org] But vitamin D supplements or sunbathing is so cheap, there is not profit in telling people about this...
  "Treating Disease With Vitamin D"
  http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/treatment.shtml [vitamindcouncil.org] 
  "Why Michelle Obama is More Likely to Die From Breast Cancer than Hillary Clinton"
  http://curtisduncan.blogspot.com/2009/10/why-michelle-obama-is-more-likely-to.html [blogspot.com] There are other inexpensive treatments to prevent or cure cancer with various degrees of anecdotal evidence (like IV vitamin C as a cancer treatment),
  http://www.medpagetoday.com/HematologyOncology/OtherCancers/2938 [medpagetoday.com] but curing vitamin D deficiency (now widespread as we all spend more time indoors at computers) has lots of scientific evidence about its value in relation to cancer and a wide variety of other things because vitamin D is essential to regulating the expression of thousands of gene.
That is why being vitamin D deficient has such widespread negative effects -- sort of like deleting thousands of files at random on your hard drive... What's amazing is that humans survive at all with so little sunlight... So big is this effect of vitamin D deficiency on health that for Western Europe alone it has been suggested:
  "A Decade Of Vitamin D Supplementation Would Save $4.4 Trillion Over A Decade; Would Save $1346 Per Person Per Annum"
  http://www.lewrockwell.com/sardi/sardi111.html [lewrockwell.com] Where are the US CDC, FDA, AMA, and other acronyms doing about all this?
Good question...Essentially, the US RDA for vitamin D is about ten times too low, as it was set decades ago for healthy bones, not a healthy heart, a healthy brain, a healthy immune system, or a healthy weight.
The toxicity fears have also been overblown (vitamin A is much more toxic, and according to Dr. Cannell who runs the vitamin D council website, many people through supplements have too much vitamin A which interferes with vitamin D.)
  http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/vitaminDToxicity.shtml [vitamindcouncil.org] 
  http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/newsletter/2008-december.shtml [vitamindcouncil.org] Although just how much vitamin D as supplements you need depends on things like your weight, your skin color, your behavior outdoors, your latitude, your personal biochemestry, and so on, so regular blood tests are important (even though people still disagree over what the optimum level should be).
Example:
    http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2009/01/why-rda-for-vitamin-d.html [blogspot.com] The average light skinned human adult in a bathing suit at moderate latitudes under noonday summer sun will make 10,000 to 20,000 IUs of vitamin D in twenty minutes or so in their skin, and up to 50,000 units before their skin turns pink (sunburns are of course bad for you).
The reaction is self</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388428</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390960</id>
	<title>It depends on your own ability to pay.</title>
	<author>Kral\_Blbec</author>
	<datestamp>1267983900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>A terminally ill patient should not impose such medical bills that chase the surviving family for the rest of their life. You got the means to pay for last ditch treatment that has a 1\% chance of doing anything? That's your money, go ahead. Make 20k a year and you have lung cancer from smoking 2 packs since you were 16? Sorry. (Extreme example i know) The simple fact of the matter is that we cannot support everyone like that. Its not a matter of charity or benevolence or cruelty to strangers. There simply is not enough personnel, supplies, space, nor funding. <br>Another way to look at. This guy took 600k to sit in a bed for two years in pain. Most of that was funded by insurance. Other people with that insurance paid for it in their premiums. That means premiums, as a whole, were just a bit higher. That made them too expensive for John Doe and Jane Doe to pay for. John Doe broke his leg and didn't have insurance, so the tax payers covered his emergency room visit. Jane Doe got sit with strep throat but couldnt afford to see a doctor. She died of rheumatic fever.  You really want to make insurance accessible for everyone, then people need to realize that terminally ill patients are probably going to die soon no matter what you do.</htmltext>
<tokenext>A terminally ill patient should not impose such medical bills that chase the surviving family for the rest of their life .
You got the means to pay for last ditch treatment that has a 1 \ % chance of doing anything ?
That 's your money , go ahead .
Make 20k a year and you have lung cancer from smoking 2 packs since you were 16 ?
Sorry. ( Extreme example i know ) The simple fact of the matter is that we can not support everyone like that .
Its not a matter of charity or benevolence or cruelty to strangers .
There simply is not enough personnel , supplies , space , nor funding .
Another way to look at .
This guy took 600k to sit in a bed for two years in pain .
Most of that was funded by insurance .
Other people with that insurance paid for it in their premiums .
That means premiums , as a whole , were just a bit higher .
That made them too expensive for John Doe and Jane Doe to pay for .
John Doe broke his leg and did n't have insurance , so the tax payers covered his emergency room visit .
Jane Doe got sit with strep throat but couldnt afford to see a doctor .
She died of rheumatic fever .
You really want to make insurance accessible for everyone , then people need to realize that terminally ill patients are probably going to die soon no matter what you do .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A terminally ill patient should not impose such medical bills that chase the surviving family for the rest of their life.
You got the means to pay for last ditch treatment that has a 1\% chance of doing anything?
That's your money, go ahead.
Make 20k a year and you have lung cancer from smoking 2 packs since you were 16?
Sorry. (Extreme example i know) The simple fact of the matter is that we cannot support everyone like that.
Its not a matter of charity or benevolence or cruelty to strangers.
There simply is not enough personnel, supplies, space, nor funding.
Another way to look at.
This guy took 600k to sit in a bed for two years in pain.
Most of that was funded by insurance.
Other people with that insurance paid for it in their premiums.
That means premiums, as a whole, were just a bit higher.
That made them too expensive for John Doe and Jane Doe to pay for.
John Doe broke his leg and didn't have insurance, so the tax payers covered his emergency room visit.
Jane Doe got sit with strep throat but couldnt afford to see a doctor.
She died of rheumatic fever.
You really want to make insurance accessible for everyone, then people need to realize that terminally ill patients are probably going to die soon no matter what you do.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31400774</id>
	<title>Healthcare should be free for everyone.</title>
	<author>christianmartel</author>
	<datestamp>1268064900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Healthcare should be free for everyone. Here, in Canada, taxes are expensives for everyone, but no one has to choose between life and money.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Healthcare should be free for everyone .
Here , in Canada , taxes are expensives for everyone , but no one has to choose between life and money .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Healthcare should be free for everyone.
Here, in Canada, taxes are expensives for everyone, but no one has to choose between life and money.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390480</id>
	<title>Re:Easy</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267981260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's not about a spouse just pulling the plug (that's not how it works anyway) it's about having the discussion about what the patient wants.  Do you know how hard it is to tell your parents that you'd rather not suffer anymore and just enjoy a few more months?  And yes, chemotherapy is suffering.  It has nothing to do with someone else deciding, it's about letting the patient decided and respecting their wishes.  You almost never see that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's not about a spouse just pulling the plug ( that 's not how it works anyway ) it 's about having the discussion about what the patient wants .
Do you know how hard it is to tell your parents that you 'd rather not suffer anymore and just enjoy a few more months ?
And yes , chemotherapy is suffering .
It has nothing to do with someone else deciding , it 's about letting the patient decided and respecting their wishes .
You almost never see that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's not about a spouse just pulling the plug (that's not how it works anyway) it's about having the discussion about what the patient wants.
Do you know how hard it is to tell your parents that you'd rather not suffer anymore and just enjoy a few more months?
And yes, chemotherapy is suffering.
It has nothing to do with someone else deciding, it's about letting the patient decided and respecting their wishes.
You almost never see that.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388090</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388640</id>
	<title>Re:What is that for a question?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267969800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>You should \_not even have to\_ ask yourself this question - healthcare should never put such responsibility into an affected person's hand!</p><p>The US seriously needs to fix its healthcare system.</p></div><p>You're looking at it from a strictly dollars and cents point of view. </p><p>Even if the patient has a billion dollars, making the cost of treatment not a factor, at what point does the patient say "I'm done with the treatment. My quality of life has gone down the tubes."</p><p> We are not supposed to live forever. We didn't evolve to live beyond the age of 30, hence why we start to fall apart after that age and why women have an exponential increase in difficulty in conceiving after that age. In Western society and especially in America, we have this terror of death - we deny its existence which makes it all the more terrifying. Compare it to this attitude: when the Dalai Lama was asked when he reached 60 what he was going to do, he responded "prepare to die". He didn't mean that he was going to start his funeral pyre but that he was realizing that he was at the end of his life and he was going to live like it and prepare his emotional and mental state. Here in the States, you see 80 year olds acting like they've got another 30 years.</p><p>I'm not saying people should roll over and die when they have any health issue, but there's a point when we need to face reality - which is something we Americans are horrible at.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You should \ _not even have to \ _ ask yourself this question - healthcare should never put such responsibility into an affected person 's hand ! The US seriously needs to fix its healthcare system.You 're looking at it from a strictly dollars and cents point of view .
Even if the patient has a billion dollars , making the cost of treatment not a factor , at what point does the patient say " I 'm done with the treatment .
My quality of life has gone down the tubes .
" We are not supposed to live forever .
We did n't evolve to live beyond the age of 30 , hence why we start to fall apart after that age and why women have an exponential increase in difficulty in conceiving after that age .
In Western society and especially in America , we have this terror of death - we deny its existence which makes it all the more terrifying .
Compare it to this attitude : when the Dalai Lama was asked when he reached 60 what he was going to do , he responded " prepare to die " .
He did n't mean that he was going to start his funeral pyre but that he was realizing that he was at the end of his life and he was going to live like it and prepare his emotional and mental state .
Here in the States , you see 80 year olds acting like they 've got another 30 years.I 'm not saying people should roll over and die when they have any health issue , but there 's a point when we need to face reality - which is something we Americans are horrible at .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You should \_not even have to\_ ask yourself this question - healthcare should never put such responsibility into an affected person's hand!The US seriously needs to fix its healthcare system.You're looking at it from a strictly dollars and cents point of view.
Even if the patient has a billion dollars, making the cost of treatment not a factor, at what point does the patient say "I'm done with the treatment.
My quality of life has gone down the tubes.
" We are not supposed to live forever.
We didn't evolve to live beyond the age of 30, hence why we start to fall apart after that age and why women have an exponential increase in difficulty in conceiving after that age.
In Western society and especially in America, we have this terror of death - we deny its existence which makes it all the more terrifying.
Compare it to this attitude: when the Dalai Lama was asked when he reached 60 what he was going to do, he responded "prepare to die".
He didn't mean that he was going to start his funeral pyre but that he was realizing that he was at the end of his life and he was going to live like it and prepare his emotional and mental state.
Here in the States, you see 80 year olds acting like they've got another 30 years.I'm not saying people should roll over and die when they have any health issue, but there's a point when we need to face reality - which is something we Americans are horrible at.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388064</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389918</id>
	<title>One More Data Point</title>
	<author>The\_Steel\_General</author>
	<datestamp>1267977840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm going to repeat a point one other person made, just to make it again:  In addition to the direct societal costs (which, I realize, can't even be easily quantified based on TFA: 600K? 400K? The amount charged, the amount paid, the amount paid less the patient's insurance premiums, divided by the number of people paying into policies for the two insurance companies?) and benefits (a few more years for 2 kids to have their dad around, an article investigating health care costs, a discussion on Slashdot on healthcare economics) there is also the advantage of having one more data point.</p><p>Because this guy was willing to keep trying, going through significant suffering for the benefit of his wife, his children, and a few more months of life, the medical community knows that a given group of drugs can extend the life of a kidney cancer patient by up to 17 months. The next kidney cancer patient, and the next cancer patient, and the next doctor looking for a way to treat this person who just walked in,and the next researcher investigating how these drugs work, all have a bit more information than they did before. They may decide that it's a goal to shoot for, or they may decide that the regimen is not quite useful. Either way, it's more than they knew before.</p><p>Of course, we can't determine the value of that, any better than we can determine whether the rest of the money spent was worth it. It's still a benefit we all get and should consider.</p><p>TSG</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm going to repeat a point one other person made , just to make it again : In addition to the direct societal costs ( which , I realize , ca n't even be easily quantified based on TFA : 600K ?
400K ? The amount charged , the amount paid , the amount paid less the patient 's insurance premiums , divided by the number of people paying into policies for the two insurance companies ?
) and benefits ( a few more years for 2 kids to have their dad around , an article investigating health care costs , a discussion on Slashdot on healthcare economics ) there is also the advantage of having one more data point.Because this guy was willing to keep trying , going through significant suffering for the benefit of his wife , his children , and a few more months of life , the medical community knows that a given group of drugs can extend the life of a kidney cancer patient by up to 17 months .
The next kidney cancer patient , and the next cancer patient , and the next doctor looking for a way to treat this person who just walked in,and the next researcher investigating how these drugs work , all have a bit more information than they did before .
They may decide that it 's a goal to shoot for , or they may decide that the regimen is not quite useful .
Either way , it 's more than they knew before.Of course , we ca n't determine the value of that , any better than we can determine whether the rest of the money spent was worth it .
It 's still a benefit we all get and should consider.TSG</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm going to repeat a point one other person made, just to make it again:  In addition to the direct societal costs (which, I realize, can't even be easily quantified based on TFA: 600K?
400K? The amount charged, the amount paid, the amount paid less the patient's insurance premiums, divided by the number of people paying into policies for the two insurance companies?
) and benefits (a few more years for 2 kids to have their dad around, an article investigating health care costs, a discussion on Slashdot on healthcare economics) there is also the advantage of having one more data point.Because this guy was willing to keep trying, going through significant suffering for the benefit of his wife, his children, and a few more months of life, the medical community knows that a given group of drugs can extend the life of a kidney cancer patient by up to 17 months.
The next kidney cancer patient, and the next cancer patient, and the next doctor looking for a way to treat this person who just walked in,and the next researcher investigating how these drugs work, all have a bit more information than they did before.
They may decide that it's a goal to shoot for, or they may decide that the regimen is not quite useful.
Either way, it's more than they knew before.Of course, we can't determine the value of that, any better than we can determine whether the rest of the money spent was worth it.
It's still a benefit we all get and should consider.TSG</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388516</id>
	<title>Re:Health Insurance in Germany</title>
	<author>TapeCutter</author>
	<datestamp>1267968060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>For an Australian family on $100K/yr UHC costs $1,500/yr. I told that to an American a little while ago and he called me a liar...</htmltext>
<tokenext>For an Australian family on $ 100K/yr UHC costs $ 1,500/yr .
I told that to an American a little while ago and he called me a liar.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For an Australian family on $100K/yr UHC costs $1,500/yr.
I told that to an American a little while ago and he called me a liar...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388200</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31395494</id>
	<title>Re:Money is not real</title>
	<author>RightSaidFred99</author>
	<datestamp>1267968960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's a truly stupid comment.  Money is real, it represents the work one person is willing to do for another.</p><p>I'll tell you what.  How about you quit your job and go work in hospice care for free.  After all, money's not real and those people need you.</p><p>"Money's not real".  Seriously, how fucking facile can one be?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's a truly stupid comment .
Money is real , it represents the work one person is willing to do for another.I 'll tell you what .
How about you quit your job and go work in hospice care for free .
After all , money 's not real and those people need you .
" Money 's not real " .
Seriously , how fucking facile can one be ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's a truly stupid comment.
Money is real, it represents the work one person is willing to do for another.I'll tell you what.
How about you quit your job and go work in hospice care for free.
After all, money's not real and those people need you.
"Money's not real".
Seriously, how fucking facile can one be?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388880</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389696</id>
	<title>Re:You're Sick!</title>
	<author>Rich0</author>
	<datestamp>1267976460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Doctors and care providers should be the ones responsible for determining the best methods of care for their patients. </i></p><p>Why is it then that the nation that you live in sets guidelines about what kinds of care that doctors can provide?  Why is it that in your nation the legislature decides how many doctors will be hired, and not the doctors themselves?  Why is it that in your nation the government decides how much to pay doctors, and the doctors don't just set their own wages?  I can say this having no idea where you live, as in EVERY nation on earth the people paying for healthcare set these kinds of guidelines, whether we're talking about private insurers in the US or nationalized health systems in Europe.</p><p>The fact is that your government has decided that it is NOT only the job of a doctor or care provider to decide what the best methods of care are for patients.  They have placed a price on life.</p><p>And this is a good thing!</p><p><i>A population with adequate healthcare at reasonable cost (much less than in the US currently) is much less expensive over time than the current healthcare system in the US.</i></p><p>This is absolutely true.  The US has a horribly inefficient healthcare system.  However, make no mistake in thinking that in making the system much more effective and efficient that a price on life will not be set.</p><p>Any healthcare system can trade more money for increased health outcomes.  Now, in the case of efficient systems like in Europe we could be talking about a LOT of money in exchange for a tiny amount of additional health.  However, the fact that 100\% of a nation's GDP doesn't go towards healthcare and yet people are still dying indicates that at some point every nation is willing to draw a line.</p><p>The only difference is how openly people are willing to talk about it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Doctors and care providers should be the ones responsible for determining the best methods of care for their patients .
Why is it then that the nation that you live in sets guidelines about what kinds of care that doctors can provide ?
Why is it that in your nation the legislature decides how many doctors will be hired , and not the doctors themselves ?
Why is it that in your nation the government decides how much to pay doctors , and the doctors do n't just set their own wages ?
I can say this having no idea where you live , as in EVERY nation on earth the people paying for healthcare set these kinds of guidelines , whether we 're talking about private insurers in the US or nationalized health systems in Europe.The fact is that your government has decided that it is NOT only the job of a doctor or care provider to decide what the best methods of care are for patients .
They have placed a price on life.And this is a good thing ! A population with adequate healthcare at reasonable cost ( much less than in the US currently ) is much less expensive over time than the current healthcare system in the US.This is absolutely true .
The US has a horribly inefficient healthcare system .
However , make no mistake in thinking that in making the system much more effective and efficient that a price on life will not be set.Any healthcare system can trade more money for increased health outcomes .
Now , in the case of efficient systems like in Europe we could be talking about a LOT of money in exchange for a tiny amount of additional health .
However , the fact that 100 \ % of a nation 's GDP does n't go towards healthcare and yet people are still dying indicates that at some point every nation is willing to draw a line.The only difference is how openly people are willing to talk about it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Doctors and care providers should be the ones responsible for determining the best methods of care for their patients.
Why is it then that the nation that you live in sets guidelines about what kinds of care that doctors can provide?
Why is it that in your nation the legislature decides how many doctors will be hired, and not the doctors themselves?
Why is it that in your nation the government decides how much to pay doctors, and the doctors don't just set their own wages?
I can say this having no idea where you live, as in EVERY nation on earth the people paying for healthcare set these kinds of guidelines, whether we're talking about private insurers in the US or nationalized health systems in Europe.The fact is that your government has decided that it is NOT only the job of a doctor or care provider to decide what the best methods of care are for patients.
They have placed a price on life.And this is a good thing!A population with adequate healthcare at reasonable cost (much less than in the US currently) is much less expensive over time than the current healthcare system in the US.This is absolutely true.
The US has a horribly inefficient healthcare system.
However, make no mistake in thinking that in making the system much more effective and efficient that a price on life will not be set.Any healthcare system can trade more money for increased health outcomes.
Now, in the case of efficient systems like in Europe we could be talking about a LOT of money in exchange for a tiny amount of additional health.
However, the fact that 100\% of a nation's GDP doesn't go towards healthcare and yet people are still dying indicates that at some point every nation is willing to draw a line.The only difference is how openly people are willing to talk about it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388570</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388880</id>
	<title>Money is not real</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267972140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Money is not real. It is a concept we invented. Life is real. To value an imaginary groupthink like money over a loved ones life is very sad.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Money is not real .
It is a concept we invented .
Life is real .
To value an imaginary groupthink like money over a loved ones life is very sad .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Money is not real.
It is a concept we invented.
Life is real.
To value an imaginary groupthink like money over a loved ones life is very sad.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31392098</id>
	<title>To reuse a phrase</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267989900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You can have my life when you pry my cold dead hands off of it.  I'm sorry to who it offend and who thinks it's not worth the money but you are wrong, once you are dead you can't come back to life, game over (unless you believe in reincarnation and even then you don't remember your former life so it's the same as dying). If I am sick I want it all, I don't care how much it costs or if you have to suck the brains out of aborted fetuses and stick them in me, I will do anything to survive and millions of years of evolution have made sure that I am really good at surviving.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You can have my life when you pry my cold dead hands off of it .
I 'm sorry to who it offend and who thinks it 's not worth the money but you are wrong , once you are dead you ca n't come back to life , game over ( unless you believe in reincarnation and even then you do n't remember your former life so it 's the same as dying ) .
If I am sick I want it all , I do n't care how much it costs or if you have to suck the brains out of aborted fetuses and stick them in me , I will do anything to survive and millions of years of evolution have made sure that I am really good at surviving .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You can have my life when you pry my cold dead hands off of it.
I'm sorry to who it offend and who thinks it's not worth the money but you are wrong, once you are dead you can't come back to life, game over (unless you believe in reincarnation and even then you don't remember your former life so it's the same as dying).
If I am sick I want it all, I don't care how much it costs or if you have to suck the brains out of aborted fetuses and stick them in me, I will do anything to survive and millions of years of evolution have made sure that I am really good at surviving.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31391062</id>
	<title>Living with more dignity, not just living more</title>
	<author>GNUALMAFUERTE</author>
	<datestamp>1267984500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you have to die, die. Don't try to extend your life at all costs, while making your family go through hell.<br>You just found out you have a terminal disease? You have 6 months left? Live 5 happy months with your family, and when you start to deteriorate, jump off a bridge.</p><p>It's not about the money. It's about your dignity (and your family's).</p><p>If you happen to be a simple minded person, and so, you believe in religion, then go happily thinking you'll get an afterlife.</p><p>If you are smart enough to be an atheist, you should be smart enough to die when it's time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you have to die , die .
Do n't try to extend your life at all costs , while making your family go through hell.You just found out you have a terminal disease ?
You have 6 months left ?
Live 5 happy months with your family , and when you start to deteriorate , jump off a bridge.It 's not about the money .
It 's about your dignity ( and your family 's ) .If you happen to be a simple minded person , and so , you believe in religion , then go happily thinking you 'll get an afterlife.If you are smart enough to be an atheist , you should be smart enough to die when it 's time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you have to die, die.
Don't try to extend your life at all costs, while making your family go through hell.You just found out you have a terminal disease?
You have 6 months left?
Live 5 happy months with your family, and when you start to deteriorate, jump off a bridge.It's not about the money.
It's about your dignity (and your family's).If you happen to be a simple minded person, and so, you believe in religion, then go happily thinking you'll get an afterlife.If you are smart enough to be an atheist, you should be smart enough to die when it's time.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389190</id>
	<title>Re:You're Sick!</title>
	<author>corbettw</author>
	<datestamp>1267973640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Should doctors work for free? Should drug companies not be compensated for the work they put into making their products? Should a construction company build a new hospital, from scratch, with no reimbursement?</p><p>Health care has a dollar value because the things which comprise are not free. How twisted are you Europeans because you think, just because you don't pay for these things directly, that no one has to pay for them at all?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Should doctors work for free ?
Should drug companies not be compensated for the work they put into making their products ?
Should a construction company build a new hospital , from scratch , with no reimbursement ? Health care has a dollar value because the things which comprise are not free .
How twisted are you Europeans because you think , just because you do n't pay for these things directly , that no one has to pay for them at all ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Should doctors work for free?
Should drug companies not be compensated for the work they put into making their products?
Should a construction company build a new hospital, from scratch, with no reimbursement?Health care has a dollar value because the things which comprise are not free.
How twisted are you Europeans because you think, just because you don't pay for these things directly, that no one has to pay for them at all?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388248</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388340</id>
	<title>Lessons of a $618,616 Death</title>
	<author>AHuxley</author>
	<datestamp>1267966080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This is why most of the rest of the world has gov pay if you want/need it.<br>
If you can afford it you go private, great, for others you have the gov option.<br>
The only question then is personal and medical - are the drugs working, are the complications worse than the treatment with no positive long or short term result.<br>
Does the person want to continue with the meds or pass away at home?<br>
Costs should not come into into healthcare - <br>
Why spread the cost over young healthy people and non sick people ?<br>
Think of 1 loss of a sick person - net loss to the tax system is one sick person.<br>
Think of 1 loss of a sick person and the debt of a family in the $618,616 world? <br>
The stress and loss of 1,2,3 + tax paying productive workers as they feel the long term $618,616 stress?</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is why most of the rest of the world has gov pay if you want/need it .
If you can afford it you go private , great , for others you have the gov option .
The only question then is personal and medical - are the drugs working , are the complications worse than the treatment with no positive long or short term result .
Does the person want to continue with the meds or pass away at home ?
Costs should not come into into healthcare - Why spread the cost over young healthy people and non sick people ?
Think of 1 loss of a sick person - net loss to the tax system is one sick person .
Think of 1 loss of a sick person and the debt of a family in the $ 618,616 world ?
The stress and loss of 1,2,3 + tax paying productive workers as they feel the long term $ 618,616 stress ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is why most of the rest of the world has gov pay if you want/need it.
If you can afford it you go private, great, for others you have the gov option.
The only question then is personal and medical - are the drugs working, are the complications worse than the treatment with no positive long or short term result.
Does the person want to continue with the meds or pass away at home?
Costs should not come into into healthcare - 
Why spread the cost over young healthy people and non sick people ?
Think of 1 loss of a sick person - net loss to the tax system is one sick person.
Think of 1 loss of a sick person and the debt of a family in the $618,616 world?
The stress and loss of 1,2,3 + tax paying productive workers as they feel the long term $618,616 stress?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31395458</id>
	<title>Re:So how much was for actual medical care?</title>
	<author>DerekLyons</author>
	<datestamp>1267968780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I just had to pay $1300 in out-of-pocket expenses for my daughter to get a single stitch (emergency room visit because it was after hours). And the doctor was on the fence as to whether nor not she needed one. Had I known it was going to cost me $1300, I would have used a band-aid.</p></div></blockquote><p>Let me get this straight - you took your daughter to the ER for an injury <i>that could have been handled with a band aid</i>?  (And even wosre, you haven't the common sense to recognize this?)<br>
&nbsp; <br>Christ, I'm glad you're paying out-of-pocket and don't use the same insurance company I do.<br>
&nbsp; </p><blockquote><div><p>There is a HUGE disconnect between medical services and pricing.</p></div></blockquote><p>Yes, there's a huge disconnect - and it's between your ears.  But in typical fashion, you blame anyone but yourself.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I just had to pay $ 1300 in out-of-pocket expenses for my daughter to get a single stitch ( emergency room visit because it was after hours ) .
And the doctor was on the fence as to whether nor not she needed one .
Had I known it was going to cost me $ 1300 , I would have used a band-aid.Let me get this straight - you took your daughter to the ER for an injury that could have been handled with a band aid ?
( And even wosre , you have n't the common sense to recognize this ?
)   Christ , I 'm glad you 're paying out-of-pocket and do n't use the same insurance company I do .
  There is a HUGE disconnect between medical services and pricing.Yes , there 's a huge disconnect - and it 's between your ears .
But in typical fashion , you blame anyone but yourself .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I just had to pay $1300 in out-of-pocket expenses for my daughter to get a single stitch (emergency room visit because it was after hours).
And the doctor was on the fence as to whether nor not she needed one.
Had I known it was going to cost me $1300, I would have used a band-aid.Let me get this straight - you took your daughter to the ER for an injury that could have been handled with a band aid?
(And even wosre, you haven't the common sense to recognize this?
)
  Christ, I'm glad you're paying out-of-pocket and don't use the same insurance company I do.
  There is a HUGE disconnect between medical services and pricing.Yes, there's a huge disconnect - and it's between your ears.
But in typical fashion, you blame anyone but yourself.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390296</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388858</id>
	<title>Re:Wrong question</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267972080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At some level, it is a personal choice of the patient whether or not to continue to seek treatment.  Should the patient be incapacitated, the choice devolves to the next of kin or whoever has power of attorney.  I had a great uncle that decided he'd rather die than live without his tongue (some form of cancer) and a grandfather who made it quite clear that he never wanted to visit a hospital ever again, regardless of the consequences.  That is their choice, not a doctor's.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At some level , it is a personal choice of the patient whether or not to continue to seek treatment .
Should the patient be incapacitated , the choice devolves to the next of kin or whoever has power of attorney .
I had a great uncle that decided he 'd rather die than live without his tongue ( some form of cancer ) and a grandfather who made it quite clear that he never wanted to visit a hospital ever again , regardless of the consequences .
That is their choice , not a doctor 's .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At some level, it is a personal choice of the patient whether or not to continue to seek treatment.
Should the patient be incapacitated, the choice devolves to the next of kin or whoever has power of attorney.
I had a great uncle that decided he'd rather die than live without his tongue (some form of cancer) and a grandfather who made it quite clear that he never wanted to visit a hospital ever again, regardless of the consequences.
That is their choice, not a doctor's.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388054</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31392250</id>
	<title>Re:So how much was for actual medical care?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267990620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you RTFA (long, I know), the actual amount of money paid to the hospitals was $254,176.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you RTFA ( long , I know ) , the actual amount of money paid to the hospitals was $ 254,176 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you RTFA (long, I know), the actual amount of money paid to the hospitals was $254,176.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388062</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388062</id>
	<title>So how much was for actual medical care?</title>
	<author>dbIII</author>
	<datestamp>1267961940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>There is a HUGE amount of overhead in US health care starting with a massive markup on medicine which isn't seen elsewhere and ending with the support of a lot of middlemen.<br>It doesn't matter if it's private or public - what matters is removing the leeches and profiteers from the system and turning it back into medicine instead of a protection racket pretending to be insurance and hospitals where care is an afterthought.  The doctors are not the ones getting rich and if you want to see a nurse laugh ask them if they are rich.<br>I doubt that the same amount of care elsewhere with the same treatments under a public system would have cost the taxpayer anywhere near one fifth of that.  Remember folks, it's still a drain on the economy even if rich sick people are the ones getting ripped off instead of the taxpayer - it still hurts everyone to an extent.</htmltext>
<tokenext>There is a HUGE amount of overhead in US health care starting with a massive markup on medicine which is n't seen elsewhere and ending with the support of a lot of middlemen.It does n't matter if it 's private or public - what matters is removing the leeches and profiteers from the system and turning it back into medicine instead of a protection racket pretending to be insurance and hospitals where care is an afterthought .
The doctors are not the ones getting rich and if you want to see a nurse laugh ask them if they are rich.I doubt that the same amount of care elsewhere with the same treatments under a public system would have cost the taxpayer anywhere near one fifth of that .
Remember folks , it 's still a drain on the economy even if rich sick people are the ones getting ripped off instead of the taxpayer - it still hurts everyone to an extent .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is a HUGE amount of overhead in US health care starting with a massive markup on medicine which isn't seen elsewhere and ending with the support of a lot of middlemen.It doesn't matter if it's private or public - what matters is removing the leeches and profiteers from the system and turning it back into medicine instead of a protection racket pretending to be insurance and hospitals where care is an afterthought.
The doctors are not the ones getting rich and if you want to see a nurse laugh ask them if they are rich.I doubt that the same amount of care elsewhere with the same treatments under a public system would have cost the taxpayer anywhere near one fifth of that.
Remember folks, it's still a drain on the economy even if rich sick people are the ones getting ripped off instead of the taxpayer - it still hurts everyone to an extent.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31397062</id>
	<title>Re:So how much was for actual medical care?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267980420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>That's why I think there should be a law that hospitals/doctors MUST present you with a bill BEFORE they do anything (except in the case of an emergency). i.e. they're not allowed to charge you for anything unless you've signed the bill for it first.</i> </p><p>That's cute, FP.  Let's get serious.  How about a bill restricting the amount you can collect from an individual paying cash to the medicare/medicaid reimbursement amount?  Why does the government get to negotiate <i>really</i> hard on behalf of its favored citizens <b>and pay the fucking bill to boot</b>?  I would apply this law to any practicioner who accepts medicare or medicaid.  This will cause those rates to go up somewhat.  Boo hoo.  The rest of us would get honest, reasonable, cash-up-front pricing.  It would make health insurance less important.  <a href="http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1573970&amp;cid=31389778" title="slashdot.org" rel="nofollow">See this post for a good explanation - in thread - if you haven't already.</a> [slashdot.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's why I think there should be a law that hospitals/doctors MUST present you with a bill BEFORE they do anything ( except in the case of an emergency ) .
i.e. they 're not allowed to charge you for anything unless you 've signed the bill for it first .
That 's cute , FP .
Let 's get serious .
How about a bill restricting the amount you can collect from an individual paying cash to the medicare/medicaid reimbursement amount ?
Why does the government get to negotiate really hard on behalf of its favored citizens and pay the fucking bill to boot ?
I would apply this law to any practicioner who accepts medicare or medicaid .
This will cause those rates to go up somewhat .
Boo hoo .
The rest of us would get honest , reasonable , cash-up-front pricing .
It would make health insurance less important .
See this post for a good explanation - in thread - if you have n't already .
[ slashdot.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's why I think there should be a law that hospitals/doctors MUST present you with a bill BEFORE they do anything (except in the case of an emergency).
i.e. they're not allowed to charge you for anything unless you've signed the bill for it first.
That's cute, FP.
Let's get serious.
How about a bill restricting the amount you can collect from an individual paying cash to the medicare/medicaid reimbursement amount?
Why does the government get to negotiate really hard on behalf of its favored citizens and pay the fucking bill to boot?
I would apply this law to any practicioner who accepts medicare or medicaid.
This will cause those rates to go up somewhat.
Boo hoo.
The rest of us would get honest, reasonable, cash-up-front pricing.
It would make health insurance less important.
See this post for a good explanation - in thread - if you haven't already.
[slashdot.org]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390296</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31393020</id>
	<title>Re:It depends on your own ability to pay.</title>
	<author>cdrguru</author>
	<datestamp>1267995420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So you believe that medical treatment is only for people that can pay?  I think you will find yourself in a rather small minority in the world.  Most people seem to believe that care should be available for all without considering ability to pay.</p><p>Obviously, we can't spend infinite amounts of money. So the end result is like Canada where everyone gets the same treatment and money can't be used to get more or better.  This generally means that end-of-life sorts of stuff just doesn't happen.  At all, for anyone.</p><p>What most people haven't figured out is if the US is going to go to a system where insurance is mandated and can't be managed - everyone gets the same coverage without regard to risk - we are going to have to have some strong limits on end-of-life care or the costs will be impossible.  Since around 90\% of all US medical costs come in the last year of life, this means a savings of around 80-90\% immediately.</p><p>Of course, if you don't happen to agree that it is time for you to go it will kinda suck.  But this too will be a decision that you will have help with.  Modern living through chemistry - there are certainly drugs that will make the idea that it is your time a lot easier to take.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So you believe that medical treatment is only for people that can pay ?
I think you will find yourself in a rather small minority in the world .
Most people seem to believe that care should be available for all without considering ability to pay.Obviously , we ca n't spend infinite amounts of money .
So the end result is like Canada where everyone gets the same treatment and money ca n't be used to get more or better .
This generally means that end-of-life sorts of stuff just does n't happen .
At all , for anyone.What most people have n't figured out is if the US is going to go to a system where insurance is mandated and ca n't be managed - everyone gets the same coverage without regard to risk - we are going to have to have some strong limits on end-of-life care or the costs will be impossible .
Since around 90 \ % of all US medical costs come in the last year of life , this means a savings of around 80-90 \ % immediately.Of course , if you do n't happen to agree that it is time for you to go it will kinda suck .
But this too will be a decision that you will have help with .
Modern living through chemistry - there are certainly drugs that will make the idea that it is your time a lot easier to take .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So you believe that medical treatment is only for people that can pay?
I think you will find yourself in a rather small minority in the world.
Most people seem to believe that care should be available for all without considering ability to pay.Obviously, we can't spend infinite amounts of money.
So the end result is like Canada where everyone gets the same treatment and money can't be used to get more or better.
This generally means that end-of-life sorts of stuff just doesn't happen.
At all, for anyone.What most people haven't figured out is if the US is going to go to a system where insurance is mandated and can't be managed - everyone gets the same coverage without regard to risk - we are going to have to have some strong limits on end-of-life care or the costs will be impossible.
Since around 90\% of all US medical costs come in the last year of life, this means a savings of around 80-90\% immediately.Of course, if you don't happen to agree that it is time for you to go it will kinda suck.
But this too will be a decision that you will have help with.
Modern living through chemistry - there are certainly drugs that will make the idea that it is your time a lot easier to take.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390960</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31396442</id>
	<title>Re:So how much was for actual medical care?</title>
	<author>iphinome</author>
	<datestamp>1267975080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This is why we need a -1 astroturfing.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is why we need a -1 astroturfing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is why we need a -1 astroturfing.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389682</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31400524</id>
	<title>Re:So how much was for actual medical care?</title>
	<author>rolfwind</author>
	<datestamp>1268063340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Second, I remember a time when, if someone needed stitches or a cast, they went to their doctor's office. The ER was where the ambulance took you if your brains were hanging out of your skull.</p></div></blockquote><p>Yeah, but it was after hours and I shredded my leg cutting down some trees and was afraid I got metal splinters in the wound as well.  I also didn't have a tetanus shot in years.</p><p>I'd rather pay an inflated hospital bill for stiches than pay an inflated bill for gangrene later on.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Second , I remember a time when , if someone needed stitches or a cast , they went to their doctor 's office .
The ER was where the ambulance took you if your brains were hanging out of your skull.Yeah , but it was after hours and I shredded my leg cutting down some trees and was afraid I got metal splinters in the wound as well .
I also did n't have a tetanus shot in years.I 'd rather pay an inflated hospital bill for stiches than pay an inflated bill for gangrene later on .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Second, I remember a time when, if someone needed stitches or a cast, they went to their doctor's office.
The ER was where the ambulance took you if your brains were hanging out of your skull.Yeah, but it was after hours and I shredded my leg cutting down some trees and was afraid I got metal splinters in the wound as well.
I also didn't have a tetanus shot in years.I'd rather pay an inflated hospital bill for stiches than pay an inflated bill for gangrene later on.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388896</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389542</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe she can answer in hindsight</title>
	<author>nacturation</author>
	<datestamp>1267975500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Closely related: <a href="http://www.theonion.com/content/video/courageous\_man\_refuses\_to\_believe" title="theonion.com">http://www.theonion.com/content/video/courageous\_man\_refuses\_to\_believe</a> [theonion.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Closely related : http : //www.theonion.com/content/video/courageous \ _man \ _refuses \ _to \ _believe [ theonion.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Closely related: http://www.theonion.com/content/video/courageous\_man\_refuses\_to\_believe [theonion.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388156</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31397086</id>
	<title>Re:So how much was for actual medical care?</title>
	<author>AEC216</author>
	<datestamp>1267980600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was in between jobs five months ago.  Cut my figure on a can lid.  Couldn't get it to stop bleeding after 3 hours. </p><p> 3 stitches and a tetanus shot.  $900 for the ER visit.  $700 for the doctor.  </p><p>My new health insurance kicked in 1 week later..... </p><p>  That was the most expensive chicken pot pie I ever made.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was in between jobs five months ago .
Cut my figure on a can lid .
Could n't get it to stop bleeding after 3 hours .
3 stitches and a tetanus shot .
$ 900 for the ER visit .
$ 700 for the doctor .
My new health insurance kicked in 1 week later..... That was the most expensive chicken pot pie I ever made .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was in between jobs five months ago.
Cut my figure on a can lid.
Couldn't get it to stop bleeding after 3 hours.
3 stitches and a tetanus shot.
$900 for the ER visit.
$700 for the doctor.
My new health insurance kicked in 1 week later.....   That was the most expensive chicken pot pie I ever made.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390296</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31393124</id>
	<title>Re:Questionable Source</title>
	<author>CodeBuster</author>
	<datestamp>1267952940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>but does it tell us anything useful about medicine in the US?</p></div><p>No, but it does generate higher ratings, more viewers and more advertising dollars by appealing to viewers' emotions. Besides, the broadcast and cable "news" is mostly just for entertainment anymore here in the United States; what did you expect, real journalism? Maybe in some parallel reality, but not in this one.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>but does it tell us anything useful about medicine in the US ? No , but it does generate higher ratings , more viewers and more advertising dollars by appealing to viewers ' emotions .
Besides , the broadcast and cable " news " is mostly just for entertainment anymore here in the United States ; what did you expect , real journalism ?
Maybe in some parallel reality , but not in this one .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>but does it tell us anything useful about medicine in the US?No, but it does generate higher ratings, more viewers and more advertising dollars by appealing to viewers' emotions.
Besides, the broadcast and cable "news" is mostly just for entertainment anymore here in the United States; what did you expect, real journalism?
Maybe in some parallel reality, but not in this one.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388358</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31396040</id>
	<title>Re:Questionable Source</title>
	<author>ben\_white</author>
	<datestamp>1267972320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Why is it when we have health care discussions, the media tends to quote widows and widowers? They are not experts in health care and they are not unbiased. Sure, her story is interesting and compelling, but does it tell us anything useful about medicine in the US?</p></div><p>Yes it does.  This article is excellent.  This widow asks more probing questions about the economic underpinnings of our broken medical system than our leaders do while trying to overhaul it.  RTFA-A(gain).</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why is it when we have health care discussions , the media tends to quote widows and widowers ?
They are not experts in health care and they are not unbiased .
Sure , her story is interesting and compelling , but does it tell us anything useful about medicine in the US ? Yes it does .
This article is excellent .
This widow asks more probing questions about the economic underpinnings of our broken medical system than our leaders do while trying to overhaul it .
RTFA-A ( gain ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why is it when we have health care discussions, the media tends to quote widows and widowers?
They are not experts in health care and they are not unbiased.
Sure, her story is interesting and compelling, but does it tell us anything useful about medicine in the US?Yes it does.
This article is excellent.
This widow asks more probing questions about the economic underpinnings of our broken medical system than our leaders do while trying to overhaul it.
RTFA-A(gain).
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388358</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31391946</id>
	<title>Re:Tis a sad day</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267989240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>&gt;It is a sad day when one decides to value the dollar worth of a human life.</i><br>Really?  When I'm terminally ill, will you give every penny you have to extend my life or are you a lying hypocrite?</p><p>I'm tired of hearing this empty mantra of people with more heart than brains.  The amount of money we can afford to spend is finite.  The sooner you people grow up and accept that the better off we all will be.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; It is a sad day when one decides to value the dollar worth of a human life.Really ?
When I 'm terminally ill , will you give every penny you have to extend my life or are you a lying hypocrite ? I 'm tired of hearing this empty mantra of people with more heart than brains .
The amount of money we can afford to spend is finite .
The sooner you people grow up and accept that the better off we all will be .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt;It is a sad day when one decides to value the dollar worth of a human life.Really?
When I'm terminally ill, will you give every penny you have to extend my life or are you a lying hypocrite?I'm tired of hearing this empty mantra of people with more heart than brains.
The amount of money we can afford to spend is finite.
The sooner you people grow up and accept that the better off we all will be.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388150</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31396008</id>
	<title>Re:Free healthcare (Scandinavia etc.)</title>
	<author>ben\_white</author>
	<datestamp>1267972200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It is not free!!!!!!  Repeat after me, "quality health care is not free."  Even though you want to think it is and it appears so from your (and most other citizens') point of view.  The economic costs of providing medical care are real, and cost benefit trade offs do have to be made.  In a truly socialized system such as in Sweden those trade off decisions are made by government agencies establishing what care will and won't be paid for.  The basis is usually a balance between compassionate availability of care for the sickest patients and wise use of funds to wring the maximum population benefit per dollar (or krona) spent.  In the US system we make those decisions based on less rational criteria; for non-emergent care it is based on whether or not you can pay, in emergency situations hospitals and doctors are required by law to deliver care without regard for ability to pay until the emergent problem is resolved.  This perverse system provides crazy incentives for the way care is provided and our current mess.  But I digress.  The point is that health care is expensive, even in systems where it has the appearance of being free, there are complex decisions being made on how to muster economic resources so that you can get care.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It is not free ! ! ! ! ! !
Repeat after me , " quality health care is not free .
" Even though you want to think it is and it appears so from your ( and most other citizens ' ) point of view .
The economic costs of providing medical care are real , and cost benefit trade offs do have to be made .
In a truly socialized system such as in Sweden those trade off decisions are made by government agencies establishing what care will and wo n't be paid for .
The basis is usually a balance between compassionate availability of care for the sickest patients and wise use of funds to wring the maximum population benefit per dollar ( or krona ) spent .
In the US system we make those decisions based on less rational criteria ; for non-emergent care it is based on whether or not you can pay , in emergency situations hospitals and doctors are required by law to deliver care without regard for ability to pay until the emergent problem is resolved .
This perverse system provides crazy incentives for the way care is provided and our current mess .
But I digress .
The point is that health care is expensive , even in systems where it has the appearance of being free , there are complex decisions being made on how to muster economic resources so that you can get care .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is not free!!!!!!
Repeat after me, "quality health care is not free.
"  Even though you want to think it is and it appears so from your (and most other citizens') point of view.
The economic costs of providing medical care are real, and cost benefit trade offs do have to be made.
In a truly socialized system such as in Sweden those trade off decisions are made by government agencies establishing what care will and won't be paid for.
The basis is usually a balance between compassionate availability of care for the sickest patients and wise use of funds to wring the maximum population benefit per dollar (or krona) spent.
In the US system we make those decisions based on less rational criteria; for non-emergent care it is based on whether or not you can pay, in emergency situations hospitals and doctors are required by law to deliver care without regard for ability to pay until the emergent problem is resolved.
This perverse system provides crazy incentives for the way care is provided and our current mess.
But I digress.
The point is that health care is expensive, even in systems where it has the appearance of being free, there are complex decisions being made on how to muster economic resources so that you can get care.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388196</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388278</id>
	<title>Re:Easy</title>
	<author>jonadab</author>
	<datestamp>1267965120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yeah, that works as long as the patient is conscious.<br><br>The question becomes somewhat more difficult when the patient doesn't look, medically speaking, like he's ever going to wake up ever again.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , that works as long as the patient is conscious.The question becomes somewhat more difficult when the patient does n't look , medically speaking , like he 's ever going to wake up ever again .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, that works as long as the patient is conscious.The question becomes somewhat more difficult when the patient doesn't look, medically speaking, like he's ever going to wake up ever again.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388090</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388186</id>
	<title>Healthcare costs during lifespan</title>
	<author>sciencewatcher</author>
	<datestamp>1267963800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The amount of money spent on healthcare during the lifespan of a person in Europa is normally divided as follows. 50\% for the last year of someone's life and 50\% for all years up to the last year. The problem is trying to determine when the last year of someone's life starts.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The amount of money spent on healthcare during the lifespan of a person in Europa is normally divided as follows .
50 \ % for the last year of someone 's life and 50 \ % for all years up to the last year .
The problem is trying to determine when the last year of someone 's life starts .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The amount of money spent on healthcare during the lifespan of a person in Europa is normally divided as follows.
50\% for the last year of someone's life and 50\% for all years up to the last year.
The problem is trying to determine when the last year of someone's life starts.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389632</id>
	<title>US Healthcare</title>
	<author>Whatchamacallit</author>
	<datestamp>1267975980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I just recently had to pull the plug on my father.  He suffered a major heart attack that was unrepairable.  He went in for a routine operation and two days after, he had the heart attack.  He was rushed from one hospital to another and was given the best medical care possible.  He was on an external pacemaker, respirator, liquid cooling blanket (high fever from an infection caused by the surgery), and about 30 different IV medications.  He was being kept alive by the machines and drugs.  The staff at the Cardiac ICU were outstanding, they revived him 12 times!  They were compassionate and explained that every time they revived him they were doing more damage and causing him a great deal of pain.  They explained that they would continue until the family said to stop.  His outlook was bad, he was not going to survive nor recover.  As family members arrived, we were granted access against the visitation rules.  We were allowed to have him revived so we could say our peace and to pray with him.  We also received his blessing on our decision.  As a family we made the decision to not prolong his suffering and after discussing the options, the hospital staff advised turning off the external pacemaker and slowly stopping the heart medications while keeping him sedated and comfortable.  They continued some drugs that enhanced his breathing.  We waited about five hours until he left this world for the next.</p><p>The decision should ALWAYS be with the afflicted or the family.  In some nationalized healthcare systems the government performs a financial calculation and then refuses payment or even treatment!  In America, you decide how far you want to go to extend life.  It is a personal decision.  It is your FREEDOM!  Even if you don't have insurance in America, you will still be treated and you will still receive the best treatment in the world.  You just have to pay for it.</p><p>Yes, insurance companies negotiate prices with affiliated hospitals and doctors.  When you receive an insurance statement it clearly shows what the doctor or hospital charged you and what the insurance company actually pays them as well as what you owe depending on your coverage.  If you work for a large company or state or federal government, you will see a better negotiated price because of the sheer number of employees being covered.  Insurance companies make money based on the premiums you and your employer pay into the program.  They then bet that most people won't get sick.  This is how the insurance company makes money.  Same goes for fire insurance, etc.</p><p>We are all going to die someday.  Most of us will get sick and need healthcare at some point in our lives.  The government does not owe you free healthcare!  The government is not responsible for your health.  All insurance does is protect you from losing everything if you get sick or if your home is destroyed or if you cause a fatal car accident, etc.</p><p>I do not want the government to have the power to deny me or my family healthcare because it costs too much.  I don't want to go on a waiting list because the government does not have the resources to provide care.  I don't want the government to tell me I can't have a knee or hip replacement because I am too old or it costs too much.  I don't want the government to tell me they can't at least try to save my father's life because it's hopeless.  That is my decision and no one else's!  I do not want the government to seize more then half my income to pay for those who should be working and buying their own insurance.  I don't want to pay for Joe crack heads habit and treatment.  One only needs to look at the legal immigrants entering the USA to understand that they see the opportunity this country provides it's citizens to succeed and that through hard work they can make it too!  There are countless success stories of immigrants coming here with nothing and in a generation or two making it really big!  I know a Polish family that arrived in the 1960's and the husband and wife worked 2-4 jobs for years to make it possible for their so</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I just recently had to pull the plug on my father .
He suffered a major heart attack that was unrepairable .
He went in for a routine operation and two days after , he had the heart attack .
He was rushed from one hospital to another and was given the best medical care possible .
He was on an external pacemaker , respirator , liquid cooling blanket ( high fever from an infection caused by the surgery ) , and about 30 different IV medications .
He was being kept alive by the machines and drugs .
The staff at the Cardiac ICU were outstanding , they revived him 12 times !
They were compassionate and explained that every time they revived him they were doing more damage and causing him a great deal of pain .
They explained that they would continue until the family said to stop .
His outlook was bad , he was not going to survive nor recover .
As family members arrived , we were granted access against the visitation rules .
We were allowed to have him revived so we could say our peace and to pray with him .
We also received his blessing on our decision .
As a family we made the decision to not prolong his suffering and after discussing the options , the hospital staff advised turning off the external pacemaker and slowly stopping the heart medications while keeping him sedated and comfortable .
They continued some drugs that enhanced his breathing .
We waited about five hours until he left this world for the next.The decision should ALWAYS be with the afflicted or the family .
In some nationalized healthcare systems the government performs a financial calculation and then refuses payment or even treatment !
In America , you decide how far you want to go to extend life .
It is a personal decision .
It is your FREEDOM !
Even if you do n't have insurance in America , you will still be treated and you will still receive the best treatment in the world .
You just have to pay for it.Yes , insurance companies negotiate prices with affiliated hospitals and doctors .
When you receive an insurance statement it clearly shows what the doctor or hospital charged you and what the insurance company actually pays them as well as what you owe depending on your coverage .
If you work for a large company or state or federal government , you will see a better negotiated price because of the sheer number of employees being covered .
Insurance companies make money based on the premiums you and your employer pay into the program .
They then bet that most people wo n't get sick .
This is how the insurance company makes money .
Same goes for fire insurance , etc.We are all going to die someday .
Most of us will get sick and need healthcare at some point in our lives .
The government does not owe you free healthcare !
The government is not responsible for your health .
All insurance does is protect you from losing everything if you get sick or if your home is destroyed or if you cause a fatal car accident , etc.I do not want the government to have the power to deny me or my family healthcare because it costs too much .
I do n't want to go on a waiting list because the government does not have the resources to provide care .
I do n't want the government to tell me I ca n't have a knee or hip replacement because I am too old or it costs too much .
I do n't want the government to tell me they ca n't at least try to save my father 's life because it 's hopeless .
That is my decision and no one else 's !
I do not want the government to seize more then half my income to pay for those who should be working and buying their own insurance .
I do n't want to pay for Joe crack heads habit and treatment .
One only needs to look at the legal immigrants entering the USA to understand that they see the opportunity this country provides it 's citizens to succeed and that through hard work they can make it too !
There are countless success stories of immigrants coming here with nothing and in a generation or two making it really big !
I know a Polish family that arrived in the 1960 's and the husband and wife worked 2-4 jobs for years to make it possible for their so</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I just recently had to pull the plug on my father.
He suffered a major heart attack that was unrepairable.
He went in for a routine operation and two days after, he had the heart attack.
He was rushed from one hospital to another and was given the best medical care possible.
He was on an external pacemaker, respirator, liquid cooling blanket (high fever from an infection caused by the surgery), and about 30 different IV medications.
He was being kept alive by the machines and drugs.
The staff at the Cardiac ICU were outstanding, they revived him 12 times!
They were compassionate and explained that every time they revived him they were doing more damage and causing him a great deal of pain.
They explained that they would continue until the family said to stop.
His outlook was bad, he was not going to survive nor recover.
As family members arrived, we were granted access against the visitation rules.
We were allowed to have him revived so we could say our peace and to pray with him.
We also received his blessing on our decision.
As a family we made the decision to not prolong his suffering and after discussing the options, the hospital staff advised turning off the external pacemaker and slowly stopping the heart medications while keeping him sedated and comfortable.
They continued some drugs that enhanced his breathing.
We waited about five hours until he left this world for the next.The decision should ALWAYS be with the afflicted or the family.
In some nationalized healthcare systems the government performs a financial calculation and then refuses payment or even treatment!
In America, you decide how far you want to go to extend life.
It is a personal decision.
It is your FREEDOM!
Even if you don't have insurance in America, you will still be treated and you will still receive the best treatment in the world.
You just have to pay for it.Yes, insurance companies negotiate prices with affiliated hospitals and doctors.
When you receive an insurance statement it clearly shows what the doctor or hospital charged you and what the insurance company actually pays them as well as what you owe depending on your coverage.
If you work for a large company or state or federal government, you will see a better negotiated price because of the sheer number of employees being covered.
Insurance companies make money based on the premiums you and your employer pay into the program.
They then bet that most people won't get sick.
This is how the insurance company makes money.
Same goes for fire insurance, etc.We are all going to die someday.
Most of us will get sick and need healthcare at some point in our lives.
The government does not owe you free healthcare!
The government is not responsible for your health.
All insurance does is protect you from losing everything if you get sick or if your home is destroyed or if you cause a fatal car accident, etc.I do not want the government to have the power to deny me or my family healthcare because it costs too much.
I don't want to go on a waiting list because the government does not have the resources to provide care.
I don't want the government to tell me I can't have a knee or hip replacement because I am too old or it costs too much.
I don't want the government to tell me they can't at least try to save my father's life because it's hopeless.
That is my decision and no one else's!
I do not want the government to seize more then half my income to pay for those who should be working and buying their own insurance.
I don't want to pay for Joe crack heads habit and treatment.
One only needs to look at the legal immigrants entering the USA to understand that they see the opportunity this country provides it's citizens to succeed and that through hard work they can make it too!
There are countless success stories of immigrants coming here with nothing and in a generation or two making it really big!
I know a Polish family that arrived in the 1960's and the husband and wife worked 2-4 jobs for years to make it possible for their so</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31391840</id>
	<title>Re:What is that for a question?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267988700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>WRONG.  Ultimately YOUR life is YOUR responsibllity, regardless of YOUR contidition.</p><p>Yes you do need to ask yourself that question, otherwise you make yourself a sheeple of others, nothing more than a slave to a system.</p><p>If you don't consider these possibility while you are healthy.  That is your fault.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>WRONG .
Ultimately YOUR life is YOUR responsibllity , regardless of YOUR contidition.Yes you do need to ask yourself that question , otherwise you make yourself a sheeple of others , nothing more than a slave to a system.If you do n't consider these possibility while you are healthy .
That is your fault .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>WRONG.
Ultimately YOUR life is YOUR responsibllity, regardless of YOUR contidition.Yes you do need to ask yourself that question, otherwise you make yourself a sheeple of others, nothing more than a slave to a system.If you don't consider these possibility while you are healthy.
That is your fault.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388064</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388636</id>
	<title>if i ever catch a terminal illness</title>
	<author>FudRucker</author>
	<datestamp>1267969740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>rather than slowly dieing in a hospital while the doctors tally up the profits i would rather stay home and wash down a bottle of pills with a fifth of whiskey and drift off to sleep and never wake up.</htmltext>
<tokenext>rather than slowly dieing in a hospital while the doctors tally up the profits i would rather stay home and wash down a bottle of pills with a fifth of whiskey and drift off to sleep and never wake up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>rather than slowly dieing in a hospital while the doctors tally up the profits i would rather stay home and wash down a bottle of pills with a fifth of whiskey and drift off to sleep and never wake up.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388622</id>
	<title>Re:So how much was for actual medical care?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267969620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The "massive markup" on medicine pays for R&amp;D on new drugs.  Without that, there would not be nearly the level of R&amp;D that we see today.  It's not that we pay too much.  It's that other countries pay too little.</p><p>No one will invest in R&amp;D if the return on their investment will be controlled by the government.  As it stands now, the US market is the only reason there is any investment in health R&amp;D.  Canada has price controls.  Most of europe has single payer (monopsony pricing ftl).</p><p>If the US implements price caps or single payer, it will be the death of private R&amp;D in the health sector.  And the government will *never* be able to make up for the loss.</p><p>There are problems with our health system, but price caps and/or single payer are not the answer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The " massive markup " on medicine pays for R&amp;D on new drugs .
Without that , there would not be nearly the level of R&amp;D that we see today .
It 's not that we pay too much .
It 's that other countries pay too little.No one will invest in R&amp;D if the return on their investment will be controlled by the government .
As it stands now , the US market is the only reason there is any investment in health R&amp;D .
Canada has price controls .
Most of europe has single payer ( monopsony pricing ftl ) .If the US implements price caps or single payer , it will be the death of private R&amp;D in the health sector .
And the government will * never * be able to make up for the loss.There are problems with our health system , but price caps and/or single payer are not the answer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The "massive markup" on medicine pays for R&amp;D on new drugs.
Without that, there would not be nearly the level of R&amp;D that we see today.
It's not that we pay too much.
It's that other countries pay too little.No one will invest in R&amp;D if the return on their investment will be controlled by the government.
As it stands now, the US market is the only reason there is any investment in health R&amp;D.
Canada has price controls.
Most of europe has single payer (monopsony pricing ftl).If the US implements price caps or single payer, it will be the death of private R&amp;D in the health sector.
And the government will *never* be able to make up for the loss.There are problems with our health system, but price caps and/or single payer are not the answer.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388062</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31391274</id>
	<title>Re:What is that for a question?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267985460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>You should \_not even have to\_ ask yourself this question - healthcare should never put such responsibility into an affected person's hand!</p><p>The US seriously needs to fix its healthcare system.</p></div><p>Remind the "Grandiose Obstructionist Party" of this.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You should \ _not even have to \ _ ask yourself this question - healthcare should never put such responsibility into an affected person 's hand ! The US seriously needs to fix its healthcare system.Remind the " Grandiose Obstructionist Party " of this .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You should \_not even have to\_ ask yourself this question - healthcare should never put such responsibility into an affected person's hand!The US seriously needs to fix its healthcare system.Remind the "Grandiose Obstructionist Party" of this.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388064</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390296</id>
	<title>Re:So how much was for actual medical care?</title>
	<author>FriendlyPrimate</author>
	<datestamp>1267980120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>I just had to pay $1300 in out-of-pocket expenses for my daughter to get a single stitch (emergency room visit because it was after hours).  And the doctor was on the fence as to whether nor not she needed one.  Had I known it was going to cost me $1300, I would have used a band-aid.  <br> <br>

There is a HUGE disconnect between medical services and pricing.  How many of us ask doctors about how much something is going to cost?  How many doctors tell us this information up-front?<br> <br>

That's why I think there should be a law that hospitals/doctors MUST present you with a bill BEFORE they do anything (except in the case of an emergency).  i.e. they're not allowed to charge you for anything unless you've signed the bill for it first.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I just had to pay $ 1300 in out-of-pocket expenses for my daughter to get a single stitch ( emergency room visit because it was after hours ) .
And the doctor was on the fence as to whether nor not she needed one .
Had I known it was going to cost me $ 1300 , I would have used a band-aid .
There is a HUGE disconnect between medical services and pricing .
How many of us ask doctors about how much something is going to cost ?
How many doctors tell us this information up-front ?
That 's why I think there should be a law that hospitals/doctors MUST present you with a bill BEFORE they do anything ( except in the case of an emergency ) .
i.e. they 're not allowed to charge you for anything unless you 've signed the bill for it first .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I just had to pay $1300 in out-of-pocket expenses for my daughter to get a single stitch (emergency room visit because it was after hours).
And the doctor was on the fence as to whether nor not she needed one.
Had I known it was going to cost me $1300, I would have used a band-aid.
There is a HUGE disconnect between medical services and pricing.
How many of us ask doctors about how much something is going to cost?
How many doctors tell us this information up-front?
That's why I think there should be a law that hospitals/doctors MUST present you with a bill BEFORE they do anything (except in the case of an emergency).
i.e. they're not allowed to charge you for anything unless you've signed the bill for it first.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388510</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388196</id>
	<title>Free healthcare (Scandinavia etc.)</title>
	<author>carlhaagen</author>
	<datestamp>1267963920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>In f.e. Sweden, the cost for this case, over 7 years, would've been a staggering whole lot less in the shape of the extra taxes we pay here for our free healthcare (yes, I do consider it free after all). Over here, everyone helps to pay for everyone, and people get the care they need without being subjected to "pay lots, or get out". Over there, people die, or go broke in the process of staying alive.</htmltext>
<tokenext>In f.e .
Sweden , the cost for this case , over 7 years , would 've been a staggering whole lot less in the shape of the extra taxes we pay here for our free healthcare ( yes , I do consider it free after all ) .
Over here , everyone helps to pay for everyone , and people get the care they need without being subjected to " pay lots , or get out " .
Over there , people die , or go broke in the process of staying alive .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In f.e.
Sweden, the cost for this case, over 7 years, would've been a staggering whole lot less in the shape of the extra taxes we pay here for our free healthcare (yes, I do consider it free after all).
Over here, everyone helps to pay for everyone, and people get the care they need without being subjected to "pay lots, or get out".
Over there, people die, or go broke in the process of staying alive.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31408228</id>
	<title>deadbeat husbands should be dropped!!!</title>
	<author>Nyder</author>
	<datestamp>1268055420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Dude isn't earning an income and is costing her?</p><p>Damn straight she should of pulled the plug.</p><p>what, too soon?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Dude is n't earning an income and is costing her ? Damn straight she should of pulled the plug.what , too soon ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Dude isn't earning an income and is costing her?Damn straight she should of pulled the plug.what, too soon?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390042</id>
	<title>Make no mistake</title>
	<author>Trip6</author>
	<datestamp>1267978560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How good care you receive and how much is spent while you are dying is a result of caste and privilege.  Do you think children in Laos are getting this kind of care?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How good care you receive and how much is spent while you are dying is a result of caste and privilege .
Do you think children in Laos are getting this kind of care ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How good care you receive and how much is spent while you are dying is a result of caste and privilege.
Do you think children in Laos are getting this kind of care?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388312</id>
	<title>Re:easy</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267965780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"try to estimate cost vs. life expectancy in a function and derive the local maximum. "</p><p>Obama's death panels will do that only for Republicans.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" try to estimate cost vs. life expectancy in a function and derive the local maximum .
" Obama 's death panels will do that only for Republicans .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"try to estimate cost vs. life expectancy in a function and derive the local maximum.
"Obama's death panels will do that only for Republicans.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388006</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390794</id>
	<title>Re:What is that for a question?</title>
	<author>Macrat</author>
	<datestamp>1267983120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>You should \_not even have to\_ ask yourself this question - healthcare should never put such responsibility into an affected person's hand!</p></div><p>How about the question when keeping someone "alive" is really about greed and not value of life for the patient?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You should \ _not even have to \ _ ask yourself this question - healthcare should never put such responsibility into an affected person 's hand ! How about the question when keeping someone " alive " is really about greed and not value of life for the patient ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You should \_not even have to\_ ask yourself this question - healthcare should never put such responsibility into an affected person's hand!How about the question when keeping someone "alive" is really about greed and not value of life for the patient?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388064</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389780</id>
	<title>Re:What is that for a question?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267976880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Clearly, the call should be made by enlightened doctors, administrator, and politicians.</i></p><p>Those enlightened doctors, administrators, and politicians already make that call. They define every single aspect of the cost of treatments that are made available to you (and what treatments aren't available to you). You are constantly calling on their expertise to protect you from your own ignorance.</p><p>Not to mention your choices aren't made in a vacuum. There is forever only going to be a limited amount of care to go round. While the capitalist/individualist model works well for things that aren't necessary for life, it is murder for things that are. Every choice you make is externalized to some extent, and there is no way for you to bear complete responsibility for that cost.</p><p>We already have rationing of care. We are trying to do it more intelligently.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Clearly , the call should be made by enlightened doctors , administrator , and politicians.Those enlightened doctors , administrators , and politicians already make that call .
They define every single aspect of the cost of treatments that are made available to you ( and what treatments are n't available to you ) .
You are constantly calling on their expertise to protect you from your own ignorance.Not to mention your choices are n't made in a vacuum .
There is forever only going to be a limited amount of care to go round .
While the capitalist/individualist model works well for things that are n't necessary for life , it is murder for things that are .
Every choice you make is externalized to some extent , and there is no way for you to bear complete responsibility for that cost.We already have rationing of care .
We are trying to do it more intelligently .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Clearly, the call should be made by enlightened doctors, administrator, and politicians.Those enlightened doctors, administrators, and politicians already make that call.
They define every single aspect of the cost of treatments that are made available to you (and what treatments aren't available to you).
You are constantly calling on their expertise to protect you from your own ignorance.Not to mention your choices aren't made in a vacuum.
There is forever only going to be a limited amount of care to go round.
While the capitalist/individualist model works well for things that aren't necessary for life, it is murder for things that are.
Every choice you make is externalized to some extent, and there is no way for you to bear complete responsibility for that cost.We already have rationing of care.
We are trying to do it more intelligently.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389030</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390338</id>
	<title>Re:What is that for a question?</title>
	<author>Hurricane78</author>
	<datestamp>1267980420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In what dream world do you live?<br>Yes, we should care for our people.<br>But every minute of health care and every resource still costs. Which is never ever free. But always a loss for the community as a whole.<br>Resources are limited. So at some point it will cause so much bad, that you won&rsquo;t be able to keep someone else alive.</p><p>So would you really throw so much resources at one person, that you risk the survival of another one?<br>Or the health of another 100 people?<br>Where do you draw the line?</p><p>Since you are suggesting to <em>never</em> draw the line, you <em>would</em> essentially at some point kill others.<br>Now in what way is that fair??</p><p>The reason we care for our community, is because of the huge benefits of having one. And because they will do the same for us. Together we are strong!<br>Also: Stop your arrogance. Our galaxy is not special! Our solar system is not special! Earth is not special! Humans are not special! Human life is not special! Your race is not special! (See where I&rsquo;m going?) You are not special! We all aren&rsquo;t!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In what dream world do you live ? Yes , we should care for our people.But every minute of health care and every resource still costs .
Which is never ever free .
But always a loss for the community as a whole.Resources are limited .
So at some point it will cause so much bad , that you won    t be able to keep someone else alive.So would you really throw so much resources at one person , that you risk the survival of another one ? Or the health of another 100 people ? Where do you draw the line ? Since you are suggesting to never draw the line , you would essentially at some point kill others.Now in what way is that fair ?
? The reason we care for our community , is because of the huge benefits of having one .
And because they will do the same for us .
Together we are strong ! Also : Stop your arrogance .
Our galaxy is not special !
Our solar system is not special !
Earth is not special !
Humans are not special !
Human life is not special !
Your race is not special !
( See where I    m going ?
) You are not special !
We all aren    t !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In what dream world do you live?Yes, we should care for our people.But every minute of health care and every resource still costs.
Which is never ever free.
But always a loss for the community as a whole.Resources are limited.
So at some point it will cause so much bad, that you won’t be able to keep someone else alive.So would you really throw so much resources at one person, that you risk the survival of another one?Or the health of another 100 people?Where do you draw the line?Since you are suggesting to never draw the line, you would essentially at some point kill others.Now in what way is that fair?
?The reason we care for our community, is because of the huge benefits of having one.
And because they will do the same for us.
Together we are strong!Also: Stop your arrogance.
Our galaxy is not special!
Our solar system is not special!
Earth is not special!
Humans are not special!
Human life is not special!
Your race is not special!
(See where I’m going?
) You are not special!
We all aren’t!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388064</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31393428</id>
	<title>Legalize euthanasia</title>
	<author>melted</author>
	<datestamp>1267954920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Legalize euthanasia for terminally ill patients. It would make so many of these edge cases go away that the rest would not matter.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Legalize euthanasia for terminally ill patients .
It would make so many of these edge cases go away that the rest would not matter .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Legalize euthanasia for terminally ill patients.
It would make so many of these edge cases go away that the rest would not matter.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389974</id>
	<title>Re:So how much was for actual medical care?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267978200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>First, an aspirin costs $500 when they dispense to 500 people and only one person pays for it.</p></div><p>Aspirin doesn't cost $1 each. Even if it did, I'd be number 500 that didn't pay for it. The hospital could then add the cost of fraud litigation to the price of their next aspirin.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>First , an aspirin costs $ 500 when they dispense to 500 people and only one person pays for it.Aspirin does n't cost $ 1 each .
Even if it did , I 'd be number 500 that did n't pay for it .
The hospital could then add the cost of fraud litigation to the price of their next aspirin .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First, an aspirin costs $500 when they dispense to 500 people and only one person pays for it.Aspirin doesn't cost $1 each.
Even if it did, I'd be number 500 that didn't pay for it.
The hospital could then add the cost of fraud litigation to the price of their next aspirin.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388896</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390912</id>
	<title>Re:Health Insurance in Germany</title>
	<author>dunkelfalke</author>
	<datestamp>1267983660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It is not a flat fee in Germany but currently at 14.9\% of the gross wage. The employee pays 7.9\% of it, the employer 7\%. The fee is capped at the gross wage of EUR 3750 per month, making the maximum fee EUR 290 for the employee and EUR 257 for the employer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is not a flat fee in Germany but currently at 14.9 \ % of the gross wage .
The employee pays 7.9 \ % of it , the employer 7 \ % .
The fee is capped at the gross wage of EUR 3750 per month , making the maximum fee EUR 290 for the employee and EUR 257 for the employer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is not a flat fee in Germany but currently at 14.9\% of the gross wage.
The employee pays 7.9\% of it, the employer 7\%.
The fee is capped at the gross wage of EUR 3750 per month, making the maximum fee EUR 290 for the employee and EUR 257 for the employer.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388606</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31392566</id>
	<title>Re:Tis a sad day</title>
	<author>Mendy</author>
	<datestamp>1267992540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>It is indeed sad, but life is sad that way. If you don't think about the dollar worth, more human lives are lost. As she said in the article, the deceased himself, had he known the costs of his care could be used to vaccinate a tremendous amount of third-world children - he would have preferred the money be spent that way.</p></div><p>Or  thinking less altrustically, a person might have a better life if instead of the money being spent to prolong their life at the end if was given to them in the prime of their life to have experiences that wouldn't otherwise have been open to them.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It is indeed sad , but life is sad that way .
If you do n't think about the dollar worth , more human lives are lost .
As she said in the article , the deceased himself , had he known the costs of his care could be used to vaccinate a tremendous amount of third-world children - he would have preferred the money be spent that way.Or thinking less altrustically , a person might have a better life if instead of the money being spent to prolong their life at the end if was given to them in the prime of their life to have experiences that would n't otherwise have been open to them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is indeed sad, but life is sad that way.
If you don't think about the dollar worth, more human lives are lost.
As she said in the article, the deceased himself, had he known the costs of his care could be used to vaccinate a tremendous amount of third-world children - he would have preferred the money be spent that way.Or  thinking less altrustically, a person might have a better life if instead of the money being spent to prolong their life at the end if was given to them in the prime of their life to have experiences that wouldn't otherwise have been open to them.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388456</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31393188</id>
	<title>Re:Free healthcare (Scandinavia etc.)</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267953420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, its pretty much the same all over the Europe.</p><p>Austria herewhere it is supposed to be private - though its covered by the government if you are unemployed, subsidised for students etc.</p><p>The stories of US healthcare system are quite disturbing.</p><p>Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the problem could be that many people in US think country is moving towards socialism when even remotely close ideas about a universal healthcare system are proposed</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , its pretty much the same all over the Europe.Austria herewhere it is supposed to be private - though its covered by the government if you are unemployed , subsidised for students etc.The stories of US healthcare system are quite disturbing.Correct me if I am wrong , but I think the problem could be that many people in US think country is moving towards socialism when even remotely close ideas about a universal healthcare system are proposed</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, its pretty much the same all over the Europe.Austria herewhere it is supposed to be private - though its covered by the government if you are unemployed, subsidised for students etc.The stories of US healthcare system are quite disturbing.Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the problem could be that many people in US think country is moving towards socialism when even remotely close ideas about a universal healthcare system are proposed</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388196</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31402874</id>
	<title>Re:The value of a life</title>
	<author>Sockatume</author>
	<datestamp>1268075040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Cancer survival rates suffer due to England's cost cutting." Empirically, they do not.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Cancer survival rates suffer due to England 's cost cutting .
" Empirically , they do not .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Cancer survival rates suffer due to England's cost cutting.
" Empirically, they do not.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388592</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388292</id>
	<title>keep someone alive if they can recover</title>
	<author>distantbody</author>
	<datestamp>1267965360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>How about 'Keep a long-term poor prognosis patient alive with your own resources'. It's a tough approach, but keeping someone with a bad diagnosis alive when they would have died a long time ago is cruel and unnatural, and stretches the 'public healthcare' mission a bit too far.</htmltext>
<tokenext>How about 'Keep a long-term poor prognosis patient alive with your own resources' .
It 's a tough approach , but keeping someone with a bad diagnosis alive when they would have died a long time ago is cruel and unnatural , and stretches the 'public healthcare ' mission a bit too far .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about 'Keep a long-term poor prognosis patient alive with your own resources'.
It's a tough approach, but keeping someone with a bad diagnosis alive when they would have died a long time ago is cruel and unnatural, and stretches the 'public healthcare' mission a bit too far.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390754</id>
	<title>Re:So how much was for actual medical care?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267982880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Thats INSANE!<br>40 euros here no more for a xray...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Thats INSANE ! 40 euros here no more for a xray.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thats INSANE!40 euros here no more for a xray...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388510</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31393390</id>
	<title>Re:Billing and Payments</title>
	<author>sjames</author>
	<datestamp>1267954740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Exactly, the people with the least ability to pay get billed for the maximum.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Exactly , the people with the least ability to pay get billed for the maximum .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Exactly, the people with the least ability to pay get billed for the maximum.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388448</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388584</id>
	<title>$600,000, or $70,000?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267968900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>$600,000?  No.  That was the 'nominal' bill.  She says that after negotiating, the insurance companies only paid around $250,000.  And if every insurance company had negotiated like Blue Cross it would have probably been around $100,000.   Now lop off the 31\% of costs that is just paperwork, and it gets you to $70,000.</p><p>The problem with end of life treatment is the health care system, not people's desire to live and see their loved ones survive.</p><p>Btw, of course the most expensive  part of treatment is the last year of life.  You don't need health care when you're healthy!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>$ 600,000 ?
No. That was the 'nominal ' bill .
She says that after negotiating , the insurance companies only paid around $ 250,000 .
And if every insurance company had negotiated like Blue Cross it would have probably been around $ 100,000 .
Now lop off the 31 \ % of costs that is just paperwork , and it gets you to $ 70,000.The problem with end of life treatment is the health care system , not people 's desire to live and see their loved ones survive.Btw , of course the most expensive part of treatment is the last year of life .
You do n't need health care when you 're healthy !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>$600,000?
No.  That was the 'nominal' bill.
She says that after negotiating, the insurance companies only paid around $250,000.
And if every insurance company had negotiated like Blue Cross it would have probably been around $100,000.
Now lop off the 31\% of costs that is just paperwork, and it gets you to $70,000.The problem with end of life treatment is the health care system, not people's desire to live and see their loved ones survive.Btw, of course the most expensive  part of treatment is the last year of life.
You don't need health care when you're healthy!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389682</id>
	<title>Re:So how much was for actual medical care?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267976340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"what matters is removing the leeches and profiteers from the system and turning it back into medicine instead of a protection racket pretending to be insurance and hospitals where care is an afterthought."</p><p>It really is not as simple as that.</p><p>
&nbsp; -- Research is expensive</p><p>If drug companies did not have incentive to invest, research wouldn't happen, so there goes the medicine.<br>Take it a step further and just say that the government should fund this -- government does not have the wealth nor imagination to fund things like this, that is why the private sector is more efficient.<br>If the government were funding research for new drugs, I'm fairly certain we would still be trying to determine the benefits of ibuprofen -- but we would sure have a ton of paperwork to file.</p><p>
&nbsp; -- Insurance is expensive</p><p>Doctors pay a lot of money, put in a lot of hours, sacrifice like crazy, so that they can get through medical school and then into an internship, and finally to a place where they can actually make some money.<br>The funny thing is, while everyone thinks that doctors make a ton of money, they honestly don't make *that* much money.</p><p>Technology does cost money - if a hospital wants to stay in business, which benefits everyone, they have to stay current.<br>A fancy MRI machine may cost several million dollars -- that has to be payed for by revenue.<br>People will go where they believe they are getting the best care, and they don't want someone to wave a dead chicken over them to decide their prognosis.<br>For the same reasons as drug companies are funded, so insurance companies exist.<br>You are saying to someone who has the money you want, "I want to pay you a small amount of money each month, and then when something causes me to get sick, I want you to pay the huge medical bills -- or else you are a profiteer"<br>Sure, I would help one person who needs help, but when people start lining up, well, I'm not sure that is sustainable.</p><p>
&nbsp; -- Care is an afterthought</p><p>Hmm...  Well, I'm sure that some people have wear their hearts on their sleeves, and make every decision in life based on some bigger purpose ( I like to think I am one of those people ).<br>For the majority of people though, they are trying to make a living.  Hospitals are not all the I am talking about.<br>I am a network engineer - I am very concerned with work that I do, and I very much want to make sure I do it correctly.<br>My co-workers, management, and I think most of the company I work for, feel the same way about our company as a whole and the work that each individual does.<br>Part of doing that is offering me incentives on a regular basis, for reaching out to our clients in a way that makes them feel that they have received the best possible "care".<br>Healthcare is a business as well, and while there are good businesses, and poorly run businesses, I would dare say that they feel the same way.</p><p>I don't know why anyone would want to be a direct care giver - I would find it very depressing -- just being honest.</p><p>My bottom line, and point, is this:</p><p>We need people to invest freely in health care, or it is going to get worse.<br>If people feel that their money is going out of their pocket with no return on the investment, then they will stop investing.<br>"Don't muzzle the ox while it is treading the field"</p><p>The private sector is much more imaginative in how it can come up with finances to deal with issues.<br>Doctors already turn away medicare / medicaid -- they can't spend their time working on so many cases, and then not get paid.<br>Those are great examples of taxpayer funded programs that ensure that people get worse care than if they were in the private sector.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" what matters is removing the leeches and profiteers from the system and turning it back into medicine instead of a protection racket pretending to be insurance and hospitals where care is an afterthought .
" It really is not as simple as that .
  -- Research is expensiveIf drug companies did not have incentive to invest , research would n't happen , so there goes the medicine.Take it a step further and just say that the government should fund this -- government does not have the wealth nor imagination to fund things like this , that is why the private sector is more efficient.If the government were funding research for new drugs , I 'm fairly certain we would still be trying to determine the benefits of ibuprofen -- but we would sure have a ton of paperwork to file .
  -- Insurance is expensiveDoctors pay a lot of money , put in a lot of hours , sacrifice like crazy , so that they can get through medical school and then into an internship , and finally to a place where they can actually make some money.The funny thing is , while everyone thinks that doctors make a ton of money , they honestly do n't make * that * much money.Technology does cost money - if a hospital wants to stay in business , which benefits everyone , they have to stay current.A fancy MRI machine may cost several million dollars -- that has to be payed for by revenue.People will go where they believe they are getting the best care , and they do n't want someone to wave a dead chicken over them to decide their prognosis.For the same reasons as drug companies are funded , so insurance companies exist.You are saying to someone who has the money you want , " I want to pay you a small amount of money each month , and then when something causes me to get sick , I want you to pay the huge medical bills -- or else you are a profiteer " Sure , I would help one person who needs help , but when people start lining up , well , I 'm not sure that is sustainable .
  -- Care is an afterthoughtHmm... Well , I 'm sure that some people have wear their hearts on their sleeves , and make every decision in life based on some bigger purpose ( I like to think I am one of those people ) .For the majority of people though , they are trying to make a living .
Hospitals are not all the I am talking about.I am a network engineer - I am very concerned with work that I do , and I very much want to make sure I do it correctly.My co-workers , management , and I think most of the company I work for , feel the same way about our company as a whole and the work that each individual does.Part of doing that is offering me incentives on a regular basis , for reaching out to our clients in a way that makes them feel that they have received the best possible " care " .Healthcare is a business as well , and while there are good businesses , and poorly run businesses , I would dare say that they feel the same way.I do n't know why anyone would want to be a direct care giver - I would find it very depressing -- just being honest.My bottom line , and point , is this : We need people to invest freely in health care , or it is going to get worse.If people feel that their money is going out of their pocket with no return on the investment , then they will stop investing .
" Do n't muzzle the ox while it is treading the field " The private sector is much more imaginative in how it can come up with finances to deal with issues.Doctors already turn away medicare / medicaid -- they ca n't spend their time working on so many cases , and then not get paid.Those are great examples of taxpayer funded programs that ensure that people get worse care than if they were in the private sector .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"what matters is removing the leeches and profiteers from the system and turning it back into medicine instead of a protection racket pretending to be insurance and hospitals where care is an afterthought.
"It really is not as simple as that.
  -- Research is expensiveIf drug companies did not have incentive to invest, research wouldn't happen, so there goes the medicine.Take it a step further and just say that the government should fund this -- government does not have the wealth nor imagination to fund things like this, that is why the private sector is more efficient.If the government were funding research for new drugs, I'm fairly certain we would still be trying to determine the benefits of ibuprofen -- but we would sure have a ton of paperwork to file.
  -- Insurance is expensiveDoctors pay a lot of money, put in a lot of hours, sacrifice like crazy, so that they can get through medical school and then into an internship, and finally to a place where they can actually make some money.The funny thing is, while everyone thinks that doctors make a ton of money, they honestly don't make *that* much money.Technology does cost money - if a hospital wants to stay in business, which benefits everyone, they have to stay current.A fancy MRI machine may cost several million dollars -- that has to be payed for by revenue.People will go where they believe they are getting the best care, and they don't want someone to wave a dead chicken over them to decide their prognosis.For the same reasons as drug companies are funded, so insurance companies exist.You are saying to someone who has the money you want, "I want to pay you a small amount of money each month, and then when something causes me to get sick, I want you to pay the huge medical bills -- or else you are a profiteer"Sure, I would help one person who needs help, but when people start lining up, well, I'm not sure that is sustainable.
  -- Care is an afterthoughtHmm...  Well, I'm sure that some people have wear their hearts on their sleeves, and make every decision in life based on some bigger purpose ( I like to think I am one of those people ).For the majority of people though, they are trying to make a living.
Hospitals are not all the I am talking about.I am a network engineer - I am very concerned with work that I do, and I very much want to make sure I do it correctly.My co-workers, management, and I think most of the company I work for, feel the same way about our company as a whole and the work that each individual does.Part of doing that is offering me incentives on a regular basis, for reaching out to our clients in a way that makes them feel that they have received the best possible "care".Healthcare is a business as well, and while there are good businesses, and poorly run businesses, I would dare say that they feel the same way.I don't know why anyone would want to be a direct care giver - I would find it very depressing -- just being honest.My bottom line, and point, is this:We need people to invest freely in health care, or it is going to get worse.If people feel that their money is going out of their pocket with no return on the investment, then they will stop investing.
"Don't muzzle the ox while it is treading the field"The private sector is much more imaginative in how it can come up with finances to deal with issues.Doctors already turn away medicare / medicaid -- they can't spend their time working on so many cases, and then not get paid.Those are great examples of taxpayer funded programs that ensure that people get worse care than if they were in the private sector.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388062</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31392950</id>
	<title>Re:After just watching The Matrix again ...</title>
	<author>MattskEE</author>
	<datestamp>1267994940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>RTFA.</p><blockquote><div><p>When it came to the insurance companies, the sticker price meant little since they had negotiated their own deals with the hospital. Neither the hospital nor the insurance companies would elaborate. The entire medical bill for seven years, in fact, was steeply discounted. The $618,616 was lowered to $254,176 when the insurers paid their share and imposed their discounts. The portion of the charges that were not covered for the most part vaporized. Terence and I were responsible for and paid $9,468--less than 4\%.</p></div></blockquote><p>Ironically if they were uninsured, they would be on the hook for the entire $618,616 instead of what the insurance companies paid.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>RTFA.When it came to the insurance companies , the sticker price meant little since they had negotiated their own deals with the hospital .
Neither the hospital nor the insurance companies would elaborate .
The entire medical bill for seven years , in fact , was steeply discounted .
The $ 618,616 was lowered to $ 254,176 when the insurers paid their share and imposed their discounts .
The portion of the charges that were not covered for the most part vaporized .
Terence and I were responsible for and paid $ 9,468--less than 4 \ % .Ironically if they were uninsured , they would be on the hook for the entire $ 618,616 instead of what the insurance companies paid .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>RTFA.When it came to the insurance companies, the sticker price meant little since they had negotiated their own deals with the hospital.
Neither the hospital nor the insurance companies would elaborate.
The entire medical bill for seven years, in fact, was steeply discounted.
The $618,616 was lowered to $254,176 when the insurers paid their share and imposed their discounts.
The portion of the charges that were not covered for the most part vaporized.
Terence and I were responsible for and paid $9,468--less than 4\%.Ironically if they were uninsured, they would be on the hook for the entire $618,616 instead of what the insurance companies paid.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388166</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388168</id>
	<title>Re:How much is your life worth?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267963440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes! because people getting huge bonuses for shuffling around imaginary money are worth so much more than say scientists or volunteers.</p><p>For instance the CEO of Goldman Sachs has clearly been a 1000x more useful to society than say Einstein, or Bohr, or Turing, yes, a 1000x more useful than all of them combined.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes !
because people getting huge bonuses for shuffling around imaginary money are worth so much more than say scientists or volunteers.For instance the CEO of Goldman Sachs has clearly been a 1000x more useful to society than say Einstein , or Bohr , or Turing , yes , a 1000x more useful than all of them combined .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes!
because people getting huge bonuses for shuffling around imaginary money are worth so much more than say scientists or volunteers.For instance the CEO of Goldman Sachs has clearly been a 1000x more useful to society than say Einstein, or Bohr, or Turing, yes, a 1000x more useful than all of them combined.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388048</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31420184</id>
	<title>Pathetic that this question even has to be asked</title>
	<author>Baloo Uriza</author>
	<datestamp>1268134020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>How heartless are we that we even have to ask this question, rather than move to a universal access system?</htmltext>
<tokenext>How heartless are we that we even have to ask this question , rather than move to a universal access system ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How heartless are we that we even have to ask this question, rather than move to a universal access system?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388674</id>
	<title>Re:You're Sick!</title>
	<author>Vector7</author>
	<datestamp>1267970220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're an idiot.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're an idiot .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're an idiot.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388248</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390420</id>
	<title>Re:Easy</title>
	<author>SydShamino</author>
	<datestamp>1267980960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah, but language in health care legislation to encourage people to create living wills (when they are neither demented nor unconscious and can still make such rational decision on their own) was eliminated because people referred to such discussions as "death panels".</p><p>So, instead, more people have made no such indications until they have severe dementia or are in a coma, and then next of kin (spouse usually) have to make the choices, because otherwise the doctors would be making them on their own.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , but language in health care legislation to encourage people to create living wills ( when they are neither demented nor unconscious and can still make such rational decision on their own ) was eliminated because people referred to such discussions as " death panels " .So , instead , more people have made no such indications until they have severe dementia or are in a coma , and then next of kin ( spouse usually ) have to make the choices , because otherwise the doctors would be making them on their own .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, but language in health care legislation to encourage people to create living wills (when they are neither demented nor unconscious and can still make such rational decision on their own) was eliminated because people referred to such discussions as "death panels".So, instead, more people have made no such indications until they have severe dementia or are in a coma, and then next of kin (spouse usually) have to make the choices, because otherwise the doctors would be making them on their own.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388090</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389030</id>
	<title>Re:What is that for a question?</title>
	<author>killkillkill</author>
	<datestamp>1267972800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Right, decisions of ones life are too much a responsibility. Clearly, the call should be made by enlightened doctors, administrator, and politicians. That will be a relief when they tell me that I am just going to have to quite now. I know I would be much happier if I didn't have to put up with the stress of making the decision and knew I was going to die based of the decision of a comity who calculated the value of my life.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Right , decisions of ones life are too much a responsibility .
Clearly , the call should be made by enlightened doctors , administrator , and politicians .
That will be a relief when they tell me that I am just going to have to quite now .
I know I would be much happier if I did n't have to put up with the stress of making the decision and knew I was going to die based of the decision of a comity who calculated the value of my life .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Right, decisions of ones life are too much a responsibility.
Clearly, the call should be made by enlightened doctors, administrator, and politicians.
That will be a relief when they tell me that I am just going to have to quite now.
I know I would be much happier if I didn't have to put up with the stress of making the decision and knew I was going to die based of the decision of a comity who calculated the value of my life.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388064</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31387986</id>
	<title>Mixing up advice</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267960740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Fail early, Fail often</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Fail early , Fail often</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Fail early, Fail often</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31392174</id>
	<title>When is it time to quit?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267990200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When Obama says so.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When Obama says so .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When Obama says so.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390028</id>
	<title>Re:So how much was for actual medical care?</title>
	<author>AGMW</author>
	<datestamp>1267978500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Ask yourself, "If they charged me less, who would benefit?"</p><p>
Now find some way to make "the hospital" part of that answer.</p><p>
Pretty hard, isn't it?</p></div><p>
Somewhat disingenuous, but I can fix that for you<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
</p><p>
Ask yourself, "If they <b>could</b> charge me less, who would benefit?"
Now find some way to make "the hospital <b>would be no worse off</b>" part of that answer.
</p><p>
A few individuals are unlucky enough to have medical procedures go wrong and sue the hospitals/doctors/anyone and get large settlements.<br>
The hospitals/doctors/everyone has to pay large premiums to the insurance companies and therefore have to put their prices up accordingly.<br>
So actually you had it the wrong way around<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...:
</p><p>
If the hospitals could spend more of their money on providing health care and less on insuring against court cases <b>they could offer better and cheaper services</b>!
</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Ask yourself , " If they charged me less , who would benefit ?
" Now find some way to make " the hospital " part of that answer .
Pretty hard , is n't it ?
Somewhat disingenuous , but I can fix that for you .. . Ask yourself , " If they could charge me less , who would benefit ?
" Now find some way to make " the hospital would be no worse off " part of that answer .
A few individuals are unlucky enough to have medical procedures go wrong and sue the hospitals/doctors/anyone and get large settlements .
The hospitals/doctors/everyone has to pay large premiums to the insurance companies and therefore have to put their prices up accordingly .
So actually you had it the wrong way around ... : If the hospitals could spend more of their money on providing health care and less on insuring against court cases they could offer better and cheaper services !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ask yourself, "If they charged me less, who would benefit?
"
Now find some way to make "the hospital" part of that answer.
Pretty hard, isn't it?
Somewhat disingenuous, but I can fix that for you ...

Ask yourself, "If they could charge me less, who would benefit?
"
Now find some way to make "the hospital would be no worse off" part of that answer.
A few individuals are unlucky enough to have medical procedures go wrong and sue the hospitals/doctors/anyone and get large settlements.
The hospitals/doctors/everyone has to pay large premiums to the insurance companies and therefore have to put their prices up accordingly.
So actually you had it the wrong way around ...:

If the hospitals could spend more of their money on providing health care and less on insuring against court cases they could offer better and cheaper services!

	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389118</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390266</id>
	<title>I decided for myself.</title>
	<author>Hurricane78</author>
	<datestamp>1267979940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When I&rsquo;m old enough that life stops being fun, I&rsquo;ll cut all ties to everyone (so they can&rsquo;t get to them for liability questions), take the largest loan I can get, book a parachute drop, and jump without an actual parachute.<br>I plan to land head-first on the biggest asshole on the planet. Be it some dictator or something alike. Oh, and if I can manage, I&rsquo;ll strap something to me that will guarantee his death.</p><p>Human missile FTW! What better way to go, than to do something good, like making a &ldquo;god king&rdquo; bleed (or rather burst into gibs). ^^</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When I    m old enough that life stops being fun , I    ll cut all ties to everyone ( so they can    t get to them for liability questions ) , take the largest loan I can get , book a parachute drop , and jump without an actual parachute.I plan to land head-first on the biggest asshole on the planet .
Be it some dictator or something alike .
Oh , and if I can manage , I    ll strap something to me that will guarantee his death.Human missile FTW !
What better way to go , than to do something good , like making a    god king    bleed ( or rather burst into gibs ) .
^ ^</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I’m old enough that life stops being fun, I’ll cut all ties to everyone (so they can’t get to them for liability questions), take the largest loan I can get, book a parachute drop, and jump without an actual parachute.I plan to land head-first on the biggest asshole on the planet.
Be it some dictator or something alike.
Oh, and if I can manage, I’ll strap something to me that will guarantee his death.Human missile FTW!
What better way to go, than to do something good, like making a “god king” bleed (or rather burst into gibs).
^^</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390522</id>
	<title>Re:Why make the choice?</title>
	<author>Fnkmaster</author>
	<datestamp>1267981500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ummm, nobody has ever suggested or run a system like that.  Single payer systems that are taxpayer bankrolled in other countries simply don't do that.  They have a finite budget to cover the population of their country and they have to allocate care as efficiently and cost-effectively as they can.  In most cases they do a better job than the US at that, in the sense that they provide comparable outcomes at much lower cost.  I've never heard of a government-funded healthcare system that freely lets physicians spend millions of dollars on a terminal patient's last weeks of life - they'd drive their system bankrupt in no time that way.</p><p>I mean, I'm happy to have a debate about the merit of different systems for funding healthcare, but you have to at least make a sensible argument for people to take you seriously.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ummm , nobody has ever suggested or run a system like that .
Single payer systems that are taxpayer bankrolled in other countries simply do n't do that .
They have a finite budget to cover the population of their country and they have to allocate care as efficiently and cost-effectively as they can .
In most cases they do a better job than the US at that , in the sense that they provide comparable outcomes at much lower cost .
I 've never heard of a government-funded healthcare system that freely lets physicians spend millions of dollars on a terminal patient 's last weeks of life - they 'd drive their system bankrupt in no time that way.I mean , I 'm happy to have a debate about the merit of different systems for funding healthcare , but you have to at least make a sensible argument for people to take you seriously .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ummm, nobody has ever suggested or run a system like that.
Single payer systems that are taxpayer bankrolled in other countries simply don't do that.
They have a finite budget to cover the population of their country and they have to allocate care as efficiently and cost-effectively as they can.
In most cases they do a better job than the US at that, in the sense that they provide comparable outcomes at much lower cost.
I've never heard of a government-funded healthcare system that freely lets physicians spend millions of dollars on a terminal patient's last weeks of life - they'd drive their system bankrupt in no time that way.I mean, I'm happy to have a debate about the merit of different systems for funding healthcare, but you have to at least make a sensible argument for people to take you seriously.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388346</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388006</id>
	<title>easy</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267960980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>try to estimate cost vs. life expectancy in a function and derive the local maximum.
<br> <br>
After all, when it comes to health we should never forget what a life is worth... in terms of hard currency.</htmltext>
<tokenext>try to estimate cost vs. life expectancy in a function and derive the local maximum .
After all , when it comes to health we should never forget what a life is worth... in terms of hard currency .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>try to estimate cost vs. life expectancy in a function and derive the local maximum.
After all, when it comes to health we should never forget what a life is worth... in terms of hard currency.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31391266</id>
	<title>Easy question, easy answer</title>
	<author>cts5678</author>
	<datestamp>1267985400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The time to quit is when the patient, in counsel with his/her loved ones, decides it's time to quit.  I didn't read TFA because I prefer to go off half-cocked when offering my opinions, but if the widow is now wondering if it was worth it, she and her husband obviously had a failure to communicate before he was stricken.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The time to quit is when the patient , in counsel with his/her loved ones , decides it 's time to quit .
I did n't read TFA because I prefer to go off half-cocked when offering my opinions , but if the widow is now wondering if it was worth it , she and her husband obviously had a failure to communicate before he was stricken .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The time to quit is when the patient, in counsel with his/her loved ones, decides it's time to quit.
I didn't read TFA because I prefer to go off half-cocked when offering my opinions, but if the widow is now wondering if it was worth it, she and her husband obviously had a failure to communicate before he was stricken.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389078</id>
	<title>Re:Wrong question</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267973040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wow.</p><p>Just like we're supposed to listen to the global-warming "experts" who've been exposed as frauds?</p><p>No thanks. I'll educate myself and make my own decisions.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Wow.Just like we 're supposed to listen to the global-warming " experts " who 've been exposed as frauds ? No thanks .
I 'll educate myself and make my own decisions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wow.Just like we're supposed to listen to the global-warming "experts" who've been exposed as frauds?No thanks.
I'll educate myself and make my own decisions.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388054</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388456</id>
	<title>Re:Tis a sad day</title>
	<author>kripkenstein</author>
	<datestamp>1267967580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>It is a sad day when one decides to value the dollar worth of a human life.</p></div><p>
It is indeed sad, but life is sad that way. If you don't think about the dollar worth, more human lives are lost. As she said in the article, the deceased himself, had he known the costs of his care could be used to vaccinate a tremendous amount of third-world children - he would have preferred the money be spent that way.
<br> <br>
It's important to realize, as you do, that human life is not equal to any monetary amount. But it's also important to realize that we have a limited amount of resources, and we need to think about how to utilize them, to have the best possible effect on people, including saving their lives. That includes calculating how much it costs to keep a person alive.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It is a sad day when one decides to value the dollar worth of a human life .
It is indeed sad , but life is sad that way .
If you do n't think about the dollar worth , more human lives are lost .
As she said in the article , the deceased himself , had he known the costs of his care could be used to vaccinate a tremendous amount of third-world children - he would have preferred the money be spent that way .
It 's important to realize , as you do , that human life is not equal to any monetary amount .
But it 's also important to realize that we have a limited amount of resources , and we need to think about how to utilize them , to have the best possible effect on people , including saving their lives .
That includes calculating how much it costs to keep a person alive .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is a sad day when one decides to value the dollar worth of a human life.
It is indeed sad, but life is sad that way.
If you don't think about the dollar worth, more human lives are lost.
As she said in the article, the deceased himself, had he known the costs of his care could be used to vaccinate a tremendous amount of third-world children - he would have preferred the money be spent that way.
It's important to realize, as you do, that human life is not equal to any monetary amount.
But it's also important to realize that we have a limited amount of resources, and we need to think about how to utilize them, to have the best possible effect on people, including saving their lives.
That includes calculating how much it costs to keep a person alive.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388150</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388266</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe we can just take the right away from her.</title>
	<author>cedars</author>
	<datestamp>1267964880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm guessing from that comment you're fairly young because the truth is there's a lot people do after 45. Many people (including CEOs, judges and surgeons) reach the peak of their career after 45. If you had kids at 28, they still wouldn't be adults by the time you turn 45.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm guessing from that comment you 're fairly young because the truth is there 's a lot people do after 45 .
Many people ( including CEOs , judges and surgeons ) reach the peak of their career after 45 .
If you had kids at 28 , they still would n't be adults by the time you turn 45 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm guessing from that comment you're fairly young because the truth is there's a lot people do after 45.
Many people (including CEOs, judges and surgeons) reach the peak of their career after 45.
If you had kids at 28, they still wouldn't be adults by the time you turn 45.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388132</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389748</id>
	<title>Re:What is that for a question?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267976700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree.  But it is still a legitimate question to ask in some ways.   Here (Canada) doctors have to ask it every time they consider treatment.  However, they go about it in a very specific way: will this treatment improve/prolong this person's life and is it what the patient wants?  If not, it doesn't happen.</p><p>I'm facing a rather similar situation with an 85-year-old close family member.  They have terminal cancer and they've beaten the odds for 2 years now.  The doctors were not expecting that length of time, but any treatment this person needed they got, and it has paid off.  I'm sure they would have died a couple of years ago otherwise.  Judging by degradation in their condition recently, it won't be much longer now, but I haven't had to worry about the financial aspects of treatment.  The doctors have just done what is needed and what my relative wanted (my relative rejected some treatment options).</p><p>I've heard the rhetoric in the U.S. about "death panels".  It's pathetic propaganda.  These are honest doctors that are trying their best for the patient.  They don't make these kind of decisions on their own.  They consult the patient, they consult the family, and they weigh the medical options.  Their job is to know the best medical treatment and what the likely effects are.  They won't put patients through the misery of some invasive treatment or test with no hope of actual success.  They will pick the cheaper/more efficient technique over the more expensive one if the outcome is the same (it's common sense).  They explain the procedures, the risks and the potential benefits, and the patient makes the call -- every time, for as long as they are able to do so.  After that the wishes they recorded beforehand apply, or the family steps in.</p><p>It is hard enough to make these decisions under the current circumstances, but to go through all of that *plus* having to wonder "Can I afford this?  Is it covered by insurance?" is<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... truly horrible to think about.  And yet that's an aspect that families in the U.S. face all the time.  I don't know how they do it.  It must be hell on top of hell.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree .
But it is still a legitimate question to ask in some ways .
Here ( Canada ) doctors have to ask it every time they consider treatment .
However , they go about it in a very specific way : will this treatment improve/prolong this person 's life and is it what the patient wants ?
If not , it does n't happen.I 'm facing a rather similar situation with an 85-year-old close family member .
They have terminal cancer and they 've beaten the odds for 2 years now .
The doctors were not expecting that length of time , but any treatment this person needed they got , and it has paid off .
I 'm sure they would have died a couple of years ago otherwise .
Judging by degradation in their condition recently , it wo n't be much longer now , but I have n't had to worry about the financial aspects of treatment .
The doctors have just done what is needed and what my relative wanted ( my relative rejected some treatment options ) .I 've heard the rhetoric in the U.S. about " death panels " .
It 's pathetic propaganda .
These are honest doctors that are trying their best for the patient .
They do n't make these kind of decisions on their own .
They consult the patient , they consult the family , and they weigh the medical options .
Their job is to know the best medical treatment and what the likely effects are .
They wo n't put patients through the misery of some invasive treatment or test with no hope of actual success .
They will pick the cheaper/more efficient technique over the more expensive one if the outcome is the same ( it 's common sense ) .
They explain the procedures , the risks and the potential benefits , and the patient makes the call -- every time , for as long as they are able to do so .
After that the wishes they recorded beforehand apply , or the family steps in.It is hard enough to make these decisions under the current circumstances , but to go through all of that * plus * having to wonder " Can I afford this ?
Is it covered by insurance ?
" is ... truly horrible to think about .
And yet that 's an aspect that families in the U.S. face all the time .
I do n't know how they do it .
It must be hell on top of hell .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree.
But it is still a legitimate question to ask in some ways.
Here (Canada) doctors have to ask it every time they consider treatment.
However, they go about it in a very specific way: will this treatment improve/prolong this person's life and is it what the patient wants?
If not, it doesn't happen.I'm facing a rather similar situation with an 85-year-old close family member.
They have terminal cancer and they've beaten the odds for 2 years now.
The doctors were not expecting that length of time, but any treatment this person needed they got, and it has paid off.
I'm sure they would have died a couple of years ago otherwise.
Judging by degradation in their condition recently, it won't be much longer now, but I haven't had to worry about the financial aspects of treatment.
The doctors have just done what is needed and what my relative wanted (my relative rejected some treatment options).I've heard the rhetoric in the U.S. about "death panels".
It's pathetic propaganda.
These are honest doctors that are trying their best for the patient.
They don't make these kind of decisions on their own.
They consult the patient, they consult the family, and they weigh the medical options.
Their job is to know the best medical treatment and what the likely effects are.
They won't put patients through the misery of some invasive treatment or test with no hope of actual success.
They will pick the cheaper/more efficient technique over the more expensive one if the outcome is the same (it's common sense).
They explain the procedures, the risks and the potential benefits, and the patient makes the call -- every time, for as long as they are able to do so.
After that the wishes they recorded beforehand apply, or the family steps in.It is hard enough to make these decisions under the current circumstances, but to go through all of that *plus* having to wonder "Can I afford this?
Is it covered by insurance?
" is ... truly horrible to think about.
And yet that's an aspect that families in the U.S. face all the time.
I don't know how they do it.
It must be hell on top of hell.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388064</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31392204</id>
	<title>Fisrt hand experience</title>
	<author>ooshna</author>
	<datestamp>1267990440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Well I actually have a lot to say about this but I am not going to do it.  I got to watch my mom die screaming in pain b/c of cancer.  We only knew she had it when she went to the hospital<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.She was in the hospital only 3 weeks. She died at 42 the day before her 43rd birthday.  She didn't go out peacefully she was afraid.  The doctors wanted her to go to hospice she wouldn't because she couldn't handle the fact that she was dying and nothing was going to stop the cancer in the 7 different organs it spread too.  After she died I had to drop out of high school to take care of my disabled father and two underage brothers.  If she would have went to hospice the bills would have been much lower.  But if she did that I think she would have lost the little hope she still had left.  I'm not sure what the best choice was even now but when someone is in so much pain that you pray to a god your not even sure exists to end there suffering even through death it kinda clouds your judgment.  I could get into it alot more give all the details but hopefully you understand those decisions are ones you have to live with the rest of your life.  The kind that will haunt you in your daydreams and dreams.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Well I actually have a lot to say about this but I am not going to do it .
I got to watch my mom die screaming in pain b/c of cancer .
We only knew she had it when she went to the hospital .She was in the hospital only 3 weeks .
She died at 42 the day before her 43rd birthday .
She did n't go out peacefully she was afraid .
The doctors wanted her to go to hospice she would n't because she could n't handle the fact that she was dying and nothing was going to stop the cancer in the 7 different organs it spread too .
After she died I had to drop out of high school to take care of my disabled father and two underage brothers .
If she would have went to hospice the bills would have been much lower .
But if she did that I think she would have lost the little hope she still had left .
I 'm not sure what the best choice was even now but when someone is in so much pain that you pray to a god your not even sure exists to end there suffering even through death it kinda clouds your judgment .
I could get into it alot more give all the details but hopefully you understand those decisions are ones you have to live with the rest of your life .
The kind that will haunt you in your daydreams and dreams .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well I actually have a lot to say about this but I am not going to do it.
I got to watch my mom die screaming in pain b/c of cancer.
We only knew she had it when she went to the hospital .She was in the hospital only 3 weeks.
She died at 42 the day before her 43rd birthday.
She didn't go out peacefully she was afraid.
The doctors wanted her to go to hospice she wouldn't because she couldn't handle the fact that she was dying and nothing was going to stop the cancer in the 7 different organs it spread too.
After she died I had to drop out of high school to take care of my disabled father and two underage brothers.
If she would have went to hospice the bills would have been much lower.
But if she did that I think she would have lost the little hope she still had left.
I'm not sure what the best choice was even now but when someone is in so much pain that you pray to a god your not even sure exists to end there suffering even through death it kinda clouds your judgment.
I could get into it alot more give all the details but hopefully you understand those decisions are ones you have to live with the rest of your life.
The kind that will haunt you in your daydreams and dreams.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390318</id>
	<title>Re:Billing and Payments</title>
	<author>chowdahhead</author>
	<datestamp>1267980240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The billing in hospitals is very complicated but is based on J codes, which are developed by CMS, the branch of the Fed that deals with Medicare and Medicaid.  I don't understand it well myself but the idea is that you're not paying the actual cost of a treatment, but the suggested cost of treating a patient based on a billable unit.  If a hospital or MD's office uses the wrong code, the treatment will be under-reimbursed or not reimbursed altogether.  A medical secretary or someone working in a hospital billing department could explain this better, but you should understand that hospitals don't always get reimbursed above their costs, and often the write off heavy losses because we treat patients without regard to ability to pay.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The billing in hospitals is very complicated but is based on J codes , which are developed by CMS , the branch of the Fed that deals with Medicare and Medicaid .
I do n't understand it well myself but the idea is that you 're not paying the actual cost of a treatment , but the suggested cost of treating a patient based on a billable unit .
If a hospital or MD 's office uses the wrong code , the treatment will be under-reimbursed or not reimbursed altogether .
A medical secretary or someone working in a hospital billing department could explain this better , but you should understand that hospitals do n't always get reimbursed above their costs , and often the write off heavy losses because we treat patients without regard to ability to pay .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The billing in hospitals is very complicated but is based on J codes, which are developed by CMS, the branch of the Fed that deals with Medicare and Medicaid.
I don't understand it well myself but the idea is that you're not paying the actual cost of a treatment, but the suggested cost of treating a patient based on a billable unit.
If a hospital or MD's office uses the wrong code, the treatment will be under-reimbursed or not reimbursed altogether.
A medical secretary or someone working in a hospital billing department could explain this better, but you should understand that hospitals don't always get reimbursed above their costs, and often the write off heavy losses because we treat patients without regard to ability to pay.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388026</id>
	<title>Maybe she can answer in hindsight</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267961280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Maybe she can decide at this point "hey, we should have stopped fighting here and just put him in hospice care", because she knows when he finally succumbed.  But sometimes people beat cancer (rarely or often, depending on the cancer).  Let's say early on they decided to go the hospice route, and he died.  What is she going to think when she opens up the paper and find a story about a guy with the same cancer who lasted another 20 years?
</p><p>It's really easy to draw a line on a chart and say "anybody on the right side of this line has such a bad prognosis it's just not worth the money to treat them.  It's a lot harder when it's your mom.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe she can decide at this point " hey , we should have stopped fighting here and just put him in hospice care " , because she knows when he finally succumbed .
But sometimes people beat cancer ( rarely or often , depending on the cancer ) .
Let 's say early on they decided to go the hospice route , and he died .
What is she going to think when she opens up the paper and find a story about a guy with the same cancer who lasted another 20 years ?
It 's really easy to draw a line on a chart and say " anybody on the right side of this line has such a bad prognosis it 's just not worth the money to treat them .
It 's a lot harder when it 's your mom .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe she can decide at this point "hey, we should have stopped fighting here and just put him in hospice care", because she knows when he finally succumbed.
But sometimes people beat cancer (rarely or often, depending on the cancer).
Let's say early on they decided to go the hospice route, and he died.
What is she going to think when she opens up the paper and find a story about a guy with the same cancer who lasted another 20 years?
It's really easy to draw a line on a chart and say "anybody on the right side of this line has such a bad prognosis it's just not worth the money to treat them.
It's a lot harder when it's your mom.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390376</id>
	<title>Hmmm</title>
	<author>jav1231</author>
	<datestamp>1267980660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you ask yourself this question then apparently you can put a price on life. Such is life in the collective thinking of the day. At what point do we consider paying $1200 mth to keep grandma in assisted living is too much of a burden?<br> <br>
It would be different if say the husband said, "I don't want to keep trying things if it's not likely to help" or something. My Dad was offered several different treatments but several nurses came to us privately and said, essentially, "None of these treatments are likely to help him and while they may extend his life he'll be very sick most of the time and have no quality of life." Considering that and his overall poor health he likely wouldn't have survived such treatment. We opted for no treatment.<br> <br>But had they said, "For $600K we got a good shot at beating this thing" we'd have said "Do it" in a heartbeat.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you ask yourself this question then apparently you can put a price on life .
Such is life in the collective thinking of the day .
At what point do we consider paying $ 1200 mth to keep grandma in assisted living is too much of a burden ?
It would be different if say the husband said , " I do n't want to keep trying things if it 's not likely to help " or something .
My Dad was offered several different treatments but several nurses came to us privately and said , essentially , " None of these treatments are likely to help him and while they may extend his life he 'll be very sick most of the time and have no quality of life .
" Considering that and his overall poor health he likely would n't have survived such treatment .
We opted for no treatment .
But had they said , " For $ 600K we got a good shot at beating this thing " we 'd have said " Do it " in a heartbeat .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you ask yourself this question then apparently you can put a price on life.
Such is life in the collective thinking of the day.
At what point do we consider paying $1200 mth to keep grandma in assisted living is too much of a burden?
It would be different if say the husband said, "I don't want to keep trying things if it's not likely to help" or something.
My Dad was offered several different treatments but several nurses came to us privately and said, essentially, "None of these treatments are likely to help him and while they may extend his life he'll be very sick most of the time and have no quality of life.
" Considering that and his overall poor health he likely wouldn't have survived such treatment.
We opted for no treatment.
But had they said, "For $600K we got a good shot at beating this thing" we'd have said "Do it" in a heartbeat.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31395478</id>
	<title>Re:A third path</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267968840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>(meaning you really understand nanotechnology and nanomedicine</i><br>I know enough about them to know that people who believe magic nanobots are going to fix everything have an understanding of physics and biochemistry roughly on par with amoeba.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>( meaning you really understand nanotechnology and nanomedicineI know enough about them to know that people who believe magic nanobots are going to fix everything have an understanding of physics and biochemistry roughly on par with amoeba .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>(meaning you really understand nanotechnology and nanomedicineI know enough about them to know that people who believe magic nanobots are going to fix everything have an understanding of physics and biochemistry roughly on par with amoeba.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31391736</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31394776</id>
	<title>Exponential Growth of Health Care Costs</title>
	<author>urusan</author>
	<datestamp>1267963320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'd like to point out that health care costs are growing exponentially in almost all developed nations, and in fact faster than GDP which is already exponential. The US simply started higher than most and has grown more strongly than the others that started out near the same level. <a href="http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/chcm010307oth.cfm" title="kff.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/chcm010307oth.cfm</a> [kff.org] <a href="http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/us-health-spending-breaks-from-the-pack/" title="nytimes.com" rel="nofollow">http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/us-health-spending-breaks-from-the-pack/</a> [nytimes.com]</p><p>In the long run, socialized medicine in other countries will begin to encounter the same expense problems as the US if they cannot curb the growth of their own health care expenses.</p><p>By the way, from that second article: I wonder why US health care spending surged during the 70's oil crisis, the late 80's-early 90's recession, and just after the tech bubble burst. There's probably an important relation there.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd like to point out that health care costs are growing exponentially in almost all developed nations , and in fact faster than GDP which is already exponential .
The US simply started higher than most and has grown more strongly than the others that started out near the same level .
http : //www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/chcm010307oth.cfm [ kff.org ] http : //economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/us-health-spending-breaks-from-the-pack/ [ nytimes.com ] In the long run , socialized medicine in other countries will begin to encounter the same expense problems as the US if they can not curb the growth of their own health care expenses.By the way , from that second article : I wonder why US health care spending surged during the 70 's oil crisis , the late 80 's-early 90 's recession , and just after the tech bubble burst .
There 's probably an important relation there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd like to point out that health care costs are growing exponentially in almost all developed nations, and in fact faster than GDP which is already exponential.
The US simply started higher than most and has grown more strongly than the others that started out near the same level.
http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/chcm010307oth.cfm [kff.org] http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/us-health-spending-breaks-from-the-pack/ [nytimes.com]In the long run, socialized medicine in other countries will begin to encounter the same expense problems as the US if they cannot curb the growth of their own health care expenses.By the way, from that second article: I wonder why US health care spending surged during the 70's oil crisis, the late 80's-early 90's recession, and just after the tech bubble burst.
There's probably an important relation there.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31395464</id>
	<title>Re:You're Sick!</title>
	<author>RightSaidFred99</author>
	<datestamp>1267968780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>We'll see how that universal health care works out for you in the long term, dude.  When the life expectancy has gone up to about 95, and your birth rate is even further in the shitter you tell me how that's working out for you, ok?  You think the US is imploding economically, wait until you see what happens to the EU with it's simply unsustainable social policies.  It's not going to be pretty.</htmltext>
<tokenext>We 'll see how that universal health care works out for you in the long term , dude .
When the life expectancy has gone up to about 95 , and your birth rate is even further in the shitter you tell me how that 's working out for you , ok ?
You think the US is imploding economically , wait until you see what happens to the EU with it 's simply unsustainable social policies .
It 's not going to be pretty .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We'll see how that universal health care works out for you in the long term, dude.
When the life expectancy has gone up to about 95, and your birth rate is even further in the shitter you tell me how that's working out for you, ok?
You think the US is imploding economically, wait until you see what happens to the EU with it's simply unsustainable social policies.
It's not going to be pretty.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388248</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388082</id>
	<title>Health Insurance in Germany</title>
	<author>koinu</author>
	<datestamp>1267962180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When you look at my taxes, I pay each month, you'll also find the amount of mandatory health insurance. It's about 300 euro a month and the employer has to pay an additional 300 euro (50\%/50\%).</p><p>So remember when I warned you that your social system is better than ours in the "oh-so-great-EU". You'll pay in ONE month more than you pay for actually being ill for 2 years.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When you look at my taxes , I pay each month , you 'll also find the amount of mandatory health insurance .
It 's about 300 euro a month and the employer has to pay an additional 300 euro ( 50 \ % /50 \ % ) .So remember when I warned you that your social system is better than ours in the " oh-so-great-EU " .
You 'll pay in ONE month more than you pay for actually being ill for 2 years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When you look at my taxes, I pay each month, you'll also find the amount of mandatory health insurance.
It's about 300 euro a month and the employer has to pay an additional 300 euro (50\%/50\%).So remember when I warned you that your social system is better than ours in the "oh-so-great-EU".
You'll pay in ONE month more than you pay for actually being ill for 2 years.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390712</id>
	<title>Do you REALLY believe or are you just saying so</title>
	<author>presidenteloco</author>
	<datestamp>1267982640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I hasten to add that this post would not be a troll in a rational world.</p><p>Perhaps a way the health care system could save money is if religious believers<br>were offered the option to sign a "Let God's will take its course" declaration,<br>which says that any time the person's health is getting really critical, the<br>doctors and hospitals should lay off and let God's will take its course.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I hasten to add that this post would not be a troll in a rational world.Perhaps a way the health care system could save money is if religious believerswere offered the option to sign a " Let God 's will take its course " declaration,which says that any time the person 's health is getting really critical , thedoctors and hospitals should lay off and let God 's will take its course .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I hasten to add that this post would not be a troll in a rational world.Perhaps a way the health care system could save money is if religious believerswere offered the option to sign a "Let God's will take its course" declaration,which says that any time the person's health is getting really critical, thedoctors and hospitals should lay off and let God's will take its course.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31391582</id>
	<title>The answer is food.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267987260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem is simple, the problem is food.  See the film titled "The Beautiful Trith".  Cancer is nothing more than a symptom of an underlying dietary deficiency.  People in the western world do not understand what \_real\_ food is anymore.  And it is a tragedy that modern \_corporate\_ allopathic medicine has no motivation to pursue.  Which will make more money?  (1) patented biochemical toxins or (2) telling people to eat real food.  ("Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food.")</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is simple , the problem is food .
See the film titled " The Beautiful Trith " .
Cancer is nothing more than a symptom of an underlying dietary deficiency .
People in the western world do not understand what \ _real \ _ food is anymore .
And it is a tragedy that modern \ _corporate \ _ allopathic medicine has no motivation to pursue .
Which will make more money ?
( 1 ) patented biochemical toxins or ( 2 ) telling people to eat real food .
( " Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food .
" )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is simple, the problem is food.
See the film titled "The Beautiful Trith".
Cancer is nothing more than a symptom of an underlying dietary deficiency.
People in the western world do not understand what \_real\_ food is anymore.
And it is a tragedy that modern \_corporate\_ allopathic medicine has no motivation to pursue.
Which will make more money?
(1) patented biochemical toxins or (2) telling people to eat real food.
("Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food.
")</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31392228</id>
	<title>Re:Tis a sad day</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267990560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're an idiot. You want to go vaccinate some third-world children? go send them all your money. It is not up to your small mind to decide what and how another person should use his money on. I wish he knew that his wife was thinking of this, he should have cut her out of his will.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're an idiot .
You want to go vaccinate some third-world children ?
go send them all your money .
It is not up to your small mind to decide what and how another person should use his money on .
I wish he knew that his wife was thinking of this , he should have cut her out of his will .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're an idiot.
You want to go vaccinate some third-world children?
go send them all your money.
It is not up to your small mind to decide what and how another person should use his money on.
I wish he knew that his wife was thinking of this, he should have cut her out of his will.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388456</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31398734</id>
	<title>Re:What is that for a question?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268045700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>You should \_not even have to\_ ask yourself this question - healthcare should never put such responsibility into an affected person's hand!</p></div><p>Absolutely.  You should never have a say in something directly impacting you.  God forbid.  Let the government make all the decisions about everything that directly impacts you.  Sheep.  F'ing sheep...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You should \ _not even have to \ _ ask yourself this question - healthcare should never put such responsibility into an affected person 's hand ! Absolutely .
You should never have a say in something directly impacting you .
God forbid .
Let the government make all the decisions about everything that directly impacts you .
Sheep. F'ing sheep.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You should \_not even have to\_ ask yourself this question - healthcare should never put such responsibility into an affected person's hand!Absolutely.
You should never have a say in something directly impacting you.
God forbid.
Let the government make all the decisions about everything that directly impacts you.
Sheep.  F'ing sheep...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388064</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390722</id>
	<title>Re:Selfish?</title>
	<author>cervo</author>
	<datestamp>1267982700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I would say you would look at it different when dying.  Maybe you let it go and then a year after you die they find a cure for your disease.  Or even worse, you let it go and then a few months before you die they find a cure....but it is too late to apply it.  I would rather live than have the $1 million go towards bonuses to pharmaceutical executives or medical device maker executives or insurance executives....  e2fsck them.....</htmltext>
<tokenext>I would say you would look at it different when dying .
Maybe you let it go and then a year after you die they find a cure for your disease .
Or even worse , you let it go and then a few months before you die they find a cure....but it is too late to apply it .
I would rather live than have the $ 1 million go towards bonuses to pharmaceutical executives or medical device maker executives or insurance executives.... e2fsck them.... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would say you would look at it different when dying.
Maybe you let it go and then a year after you die they find a cure for your disease.
Or even worse, you let it go and then a few months before you die they find a cure....but it is too late to apply it.
I would rather live than have the $1 million go towards bonuses to pharmaceutical executives or medical device maker executives or insurance executives....  e2fsck them.....</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388216</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388218</id>
	<title>How many other lives could that money save?</title>
	<author>Sowelu</author>
	<datestamp>1267964220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yeah, it sucks for him, but I bet I could find ten other people who could live six years longer on average with just $60,000 to spend on their health care.  Medication they couldn't afford, living conditions that are toxic, not having enough food, being in need of rehab, hell, just finding cancer early so it can be treated.

Not to mention what impact that money would have in third-world countries.

$600,000 kept him alive for seven years...That could be two reasonably-paid people working full-time on HIM ALONE, for seven years straight.  Think of what else they could do, what other benefits they could bring to the world.  Or hell, that money could pick a smart but poor high-school graduate out of Wal-Mart and put him through medical school to become a doctor.  Yes, there's a point where the money ought to be spent on someone else...especially when it's public money.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , it sucks for him , but I bet I could find ten other people who could live six years longer on average with just $ 60,000 to spend on their health care .
Medication they could n't afford , living conditions that are toxic , not having enough food , being in need of rehab , hell , just finding cancer early so it can be treated .
Not to mention what impact that money would have in third-world countries .
$ 600,000 kept him alive for seven years...That could be two reasonably-paid people working full-time on HIM ALONE , for seven years straight .
Think of what else they could do , what other benefits they could bring to the world .
Or hell , that money could pick a smart but poor high-school graduate out of Wal-Mart and put him through medical school to become a doctor .
Yes , there 's a point where the money ought to be spent on someone else...especially when it 's public money .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, it sucks for him, but I bet I could find ten other people who could live six years longer on average with just $60,000 to spend on their health care.
Medication they couldn't afford, living conditions that are toxic, not having enough food, being in need of rehab, hell, just finding cancer early so it can be treated.
Not to mention what impact that money would have in third-world countries.
$600,000 kept him alive for seven years...That could be two reasonably-paid people working full-time on HIM ALONE, for seven years straight.
Think of what else they could do, what other benefits they could bring to the world.
Or hell, that money could pick a smart but poor high-school graduate out of Wal-Mart and put him through medical school to become a doctor.
Yes, there's a point where the money ought to be spent on someone else...especially when it's public money.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31401466</id>
	<title>Balance of probabilites.</title>
	<author>jotaeleemeese</author>
	<datestamp>1268068440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>She should think that no reasonable person should  gamble with the wellbeing of a loved person, specially if the odds are against you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>She should think that no reasonable person should gamble with the wellbeing of a loved person , specially if the odds are against you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>She should think that no reasonable person should  gamble with the wellbeing of a loved person, specially if the odds are against you.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388026</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388228</id>
	<title>2 choices</title>
	<author>mtjs</author>
	<datestamp>1267964520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; - You don't start helping and let go<br>or<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; - you don't stop helping till the end.</p><p>Yet you will never know if you took the right choice for the right reasons.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>    - You do n't start helping and let goor     - you do n't stop helping till the end.Yet you will never know if you took the right choice for the right reasons .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
    - You don't start helping and let goor
    - you don't stop helping till the end.Yet you will never know if you took the right choice for the right reasons.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31401808</id>
	<title>England situation.</title>
	<author>jotaeleemeese</author>
	<datestamp>1268070120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You are incorrect.</p><p>England does not pay for drugs that don't demonstrate any obvious benefits.</p><p>Any drugs that are obviously working are not stopped in general terms, unless they are outrageously expensive (I have not heard about such a situation yet).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You are incorrect.England does not pay for drugs that do n't demonstrate any obvious benefits.Any drugs that are obviously working are not stopped in general terms , unless they are outrageously expensive ( I have not heard about such a situation yet ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are incorrect.England does not pay for drugs that don't demonstrate any obvious benefits.Any drugs that are obviously working are not stopped in general terms, unless they are outrageously expensive (I have not heard about such a situation yet).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388592</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388896</id>
	<title>Re:So how much was for actual medical care?</title>
	<author>throbbingbrain.com</author>
	<datestamp>1267972260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>First, an aspirin costs $500 when they dispense to 500 people and only one person pays for it.<br>
<br>
Second, I remember a time when, if someone needed stitches or a cast, they went to their doctor's office.  The ER was where the ambulance took you if your brains were hanging out of your skull.</htmltext>
<tokenext>First , an aspirin costs $ 500 when they dispense to 500 people and only one person pays for it .
Second , I remember a time when , if someone needed stitches or a cast , they went to their doctor 's office .
The ER was where the ambulance took you if your brains were hanging out of your skull .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First, an aspirin costs $500 when they dispense to 500 people and only one person pays for it.
Second, I remember a time when, if someone needed stitches or a cast, they went to their doctor's office.
The ER was where the ambulance took you if your brains were hanging out of your skull.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388510</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388132</id>
	<title>Maybe we can just take the right away from her.</title>
	<author>mrmeval</author>
	<datestamp>1267962960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If the person is over 45 and statistics say that there is a high probability they will suck up health care someone else would do better getting don't let the insurance company pay for it. Instead only allow them to offer hospice or a Dr. K Klinic visit and a nice state paid funeral.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If the person is over 45 and statistics say that there is a high probability they will suck up health care someone else would do better getting do n't let the insurance company pay for it .
Instead only allow them to offer hospice or a Dr. K Klinic visit and a nice state paid funeral .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the person is over 45 and statistics say that there is a high probability they will suck up health care someone else would do better getting don't let the insurance company pay for it.
Instead only allow them to offer hospice or a Dr. K Klinic visit and a nice state paid funeral.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388026</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389092</id>
	<title>Re:Tis a sad day</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267973160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>It is a sad day when one decides to value the dollar worth of a human life.</p></div><p>Then don't think like that. $600k might possibly have extended this guy's life by 20 months.  With something less than 25\% prospective benefit.  Malaria treatment costs $3.50 with greater than 90\% efficacy.  Now, the death rate from malaria is only about 1 in 120, but $600k could cure more than 150,000 cases of malaria and prevent the death of 1500 children.  If you've got a 70 year old man in one hand, and 1500 children under the age of five in the other, does it still seem so hard to decide?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It is a sad day when one decides to value the dollar worth of a human life.Then do n't think like that .
$ 600k might possibly have extended this guy 's life by 20 months .
With something less than 25 \ % prospective benefit .
Malaria treatment costs $ 3.50 with greater than 90 \ % efficacy .
Now , the death rate from malaria is only about 1 in 120 , but $ 600k could cure more than 150,000 cases of malaria and prevent the death of 1500 children .
If you 've got a 70 year old man in one hand , and 1500 children under the age of five in the other , does it still seem so hard to decide ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is a sad day when one decides to value the dollar worth of a human life.Then don't think like that.
$600k might possibly have extended this guy's life by 20 months.
With something less than 25\% prospective benefit.
Malaria treatment costs $3.50 with greater than 90\% efficacy.
Now, the death rate from malaria is only about 1 in 120, but $600k could cure more than 150,000 cases of malaria and prevent the death of 1500 children.
If you've got a 70 year old man in one hand, and 1500 children under the age of five in the other, does it still seem so hard to decide?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388150</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388570</id>
	<title>Re:You're Sick!</title>
	<author>cbope</author>
	<datestamp>1267968720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The sad part is that his life was likely extended a bit, only by the fact that the family could AFFORD it. An unemployed or uninsured person would very likely have died much sooner from lack of treatment or medication due to the fact that they could not pay for their care. This is just wrong and healthcare in the US really needs a reboot. When insurance companies have near-total control over your treatment, what drugs they will pay for and for how long, etc., the system is TOTALLY BROKEN. Doctors and care providers should be the ones responsible for determining the best methods of care for their patients. The costs for healthcare in the US are at the opposite end of the spectrum compared to most other civilized countries, even those with universal or socialized systems. It's not the doctors or care providers getting rich off the sick American, it's the middlemen: insurance companies (and health care "plan" providers).</p><p>Fix the system, it's terribly broken. And get over the fact that some of your tax money will be spent HELPING OTHERS who cannot afford care. It's something you have to accept to fix the system. I live in a country with socialized healthcare and yes we pay taxes for it. But my healthcare is basically free or very low cost. I do not need to worry about getting sick, losing my job and consequently losing my right to healthcare. It's in the benefit of society as a whole to have a healthy population with adequate healthcare. A population with adequate healthcare at reasonable cost (much less than in the US currently) is much less expensive over time than the current healthcare system in the US.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The sad part is that his life was likely extended a bit , only by the fact that the family could AFFORD it .
An unemployed or uninsured person would very likely have died much sooner from lack of treatment or medication due to the fact that they could not pay for their care .
This is just wrong and healthcare in the US really needs a reboot .
When insurance companies have near-total control over your treatment , what drugs they will pay for and for how long , etc. , the system is TOTALLY BROKEN .
Doctors and care providers should be the ones responsible for determining the best methods of care for their patients .
The costs for healthcare in the US are at the opposite end of the spectrum compared to most other civilized countries , even those with universal or socialized systems .
It 's not the doctors or care providers getting rich off the sick American , it 's the middlemen : insurance companies ( and health care " plan " providers ) .Fix the system , it 's terribly broken .
And get over the fact that some of your tax money will be spent HELPING OTHERS who can not afford care .
It 's something you have to accept to fix the system .
I live in a country with socialized healthcare and yes we pay taxes for it .
But my healthcare is basically free or very low cost .
I do not need to worry about getting sick , losing my job and consequently losing my right to healthcare .
It 's in the benefit of society as a whole to have a healthy population with adequate healthcare .
A population with adequate healthcare at reasonable cost ( much less than in the US currently ) is much less expensive over time than the current healthcare system in the US .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The sad part is that his life was likely extended a bit, only by the fact that the family could AFFORD it.
An unemployed or uninsured person would very likely have died much sooner from lack of treatment or medication due to the fact that they could not pay for their care.
This is just wrong and healthcare in the US really needs a reboot.
When insurance companies have near-total control over your treatment, what drugs they will pay for and for how long, etc., the system is TOTALLY BROKEN.
Doctors and care providers should be the ones responsible for determining the best methods of care for their patients.
The costs for healthcare in the US are at the opposite end of the spectrum compared to most other civilized countries, even those with universal or socialized systems.
It's not the doctors or care providers getting rich off the sick American, it's the middlemen: insurance companies (and health care "plan" providers).Fix the system, it's terribly broken.
And get over the fact that some of your tax money will be spent HELPING OTHERS who cannot afford care.
It's something you have to accept to fix the system.
I live in a country with socialized healthcare and yes we pay taxes for it.
But my healthcare is basically free or very low cost.
I do not need to worry about getting sick, losing my job and consequently losing my right to healthcare.
It's in the benefit of society as a whole to have a healthy population with adequate healthcare.
A population with adequate healthcare at reasonable cost (much less than in the US currently) is much less expensive over time than the current healthcare system in the US.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388248</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390258</id>
	<title>Re:Easy</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267979820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, if the patient is the one paying for it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , if the patient is the one paying for it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, if the patient is the one paying for it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388090</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31400506</id>
	<title>An Exquisite Piece of Narrative Journalism</title>
	<author>nightcats</author>
	<datestamp>1268063160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'd prefer that we focus on the quality of the writing: Bennett's work is Pulitzer-quality journalism, the kind of stuff that would have transformed last year's debate and pulled Washington out of the sewer of shrill innuendo and insanity which it still calls home. Incidentally, the editors here deserve praise for bringing a sterling piece like this to a large audience.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd prefer that we focus on the quality of the writing : Bennett 's work is Pulitzer-quality journalism , the kind of stuff that would have transformed last year 's debate and pulled Washington out of the sewer of shrill innuendo and insanity which it still calls home .
Incidentally , the editors here deserve praise for bringing a sterling piece like this to a large audience .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd prefer that we focus on the quality of the writing: Bennett's work is Pulitzer-quality journalism, the kind of stuff that would have transformed last year's debate and pulled Washington out of the sewer of shrill innuendo and insanity which it still calls home.
Incidentally, the editors here deserve praise for bringing a sterling piece like this to a large audience.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388346</id>
	<title>Why make the choice?</title>
	<author>Bartab</author>
	<datestamp>1267966200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Taxpayer bankrolled (what some call, "free") healthcare means never having to decide when spending the money isn't worth the value anymore. Spend millions on the last week of life? NO problem! Everybody -else- will pay for it, and you can still pass on your financial portfolio to your kids! Win win! Well, except for all the people paying. They're losing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Taxpayer bankrolled ( what some call , " free " ) healthcare means never having to decide when spending the money is n't worth the value anymore .
Spend millions on the last week of life ?
NO problem !
Everybody -else- will pay for it , and you can still pass on your financial portfolio to your kids !
Win win !
Well , except for all the people paying .
They 're losing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Taxpayer bankrolled (what some call, "free") healthcare means never having to decide when spending the money isn't worth the value anymore.
Spend millions on the last week of life?
NO problem!
Everybody -else- will pay for it, and you can still pass on your financial portfolio to your kids!
Win win!
Well, except for all the people paying.
They're losing.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388054</id>
	<title>Wrong question</title>
	<author>DNS-and-BIND</author>
	<datestamp>1267961880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>She shouldn't be deciding at all.  How the hell is she qualified to discuss such matters?  These things need to be left in the hands of experts.  The common people have all sorts of crazy ideas when it comes to health care, and it would be a lot better for everyone if the right choices were made for them.</htmltext>
<tokenext>She should n't be deciding at all .
How the hell is she qualified to discuss such matters ?
These things need to be left in the hands of experts .
The common people have all sorts of crazy ideas when it comes to health care , and it would be a lot better for everyone if the right choices were made for them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>She shouldn't be deciding at all.
How the hell is she qualified to discuss such matters?
These things need to be left in the hands of experts.
The common people have all sorts of crazy ideas when it comes to health care, and it would be a lot better for everyone if the right choices were made for them.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31392782</id>
	<title>Hmmm...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267993980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>$27.48</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>$ 27.48</tokentext>
<sentencetext>$27.48</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388606</id>
	<title>Re:Health Insurance in Germany</title>
	<author>thebian</author>
	<datestamp>1267969320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>On my own, my health insurance choice is a limited $1,500 a month plan and an average $2,500. Those are different companies, and the only ones selling insurance in my state (in the U.S.). I'd say Germany's plan looks OK to me.</p><p>Luckily there is a group for freelancers in my state, but keep in mind:</p><ul>
<li>You have to be relatively successfully every year in order to qualify.</li>
<li>You have to do one of several types of job.</li>
</ul><p>If you have no income (say 10\% in the U.S.) or low income, you are screwed.</p><p>It's not a political problem here because 70\% or so of the people are covered by employer plans that more or less support the entire wasteful system.</p><p>Again, the 30\% are screwed. </p></htmltext>
<tokenext>On my own , my health insurance choice is a limited $ 1,500 a month plan and an average $ 2,500 .
Those are different companies , and the only ones selling insurance in my state ( in the U.S. ) .
I 'd say Germany 's plan looks OK to me.Luckily there is a group for freelancers in my state , but keep in mind : You have to be relatively successfully every year in order to qualify .
You have to do one of several types of job .
If you have no income ( say 10 \ % in the U.S. ) or low income , you are screwed.It 's not a political problem here because 70 \ % or so of the people are covered by employer plans that more or less support the entire wasteful system.Again , the 30 \ % are screwed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On my own, my health insurance choice is a limited $1,500 a month plan and an average $2,500.
Those are different companies, and the only ones selling insurance in my state (in the U.S.).
I'd say Germany's plan looks OK to me.Luckily there is a group for freelancers in my state, but keep in mind:
You have to be relatively successfully every year in order to qualify.
You have to do one of several types of job.
If you have no income (say 10\% in the U.S.) or low income, you are screwed.It's not a political problem here because 70\% or so of the people are covered by employer plans that more or less support the entire wasteful system.Again, the 30\% are screwed. </sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388082</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389192</id>
	<title>solution: Support the Mprize!!!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267973700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why are we constantlly fussing over getting OLD and dying, when, if we spend 100 million - 1 billion on projects like the Mprize, we could get a handle on the aging process in about 10 or less years.  We waste billions and trillions on wars and old 20th century medial tech, when we could be developing stem cells out of our own cells, developing nanobots to go in and fix every cell in our bodies and hence make every cell in our bodies YOUNG again.</p><p>We are supposed to be in one of the fastest moving times in the whole time humans have been on this planet and we still waste resources on bling, endless wars and with every industrialzied country in the world supporting huge military budgets...its simply insane.  Perhaps china will be the next country to take advantage of high tech nanotech, after all, their culture tends to appreciate more the possibility of life extension technology and AI, unlike the west with it's christian dislike of AI (see: frankenstien) and christian dying and going to heaven dogma.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why are we constantlly fussing over getting OLD and dying , when , if we spend 100 million - 1 billion on projects like the Mprize , we could get a handle on the aging process in about 10 or less years .
We waste billions and trillions on wars and old 20th century medial tech , when we could be developing stem cells out of our own cells , developing nanobots to go in and fix every cell in our bodies and hence make every cell in our bodies YOUNG again.We are supposed to be in one of the fastest moving times in the whole time humans have been on this planet and we still waste resources on bling , endless wars and with every industrialzied country in the world supporting huge military budgets...its simply insane .
Perhaps china will be the next country to take advantage of high tech nanotech , after all , their culture tends to appreciate more the possibility of life extension technology and AI , unlike the west with it 's christian dislike of AI ( see : frankenstien ) and christian dying and going to heaven dogma .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why are we constantlly fussing over getting OLD and dying, when, if we spend 100 million - 1 billion on projects like the Mprize, we could get a handle on the aging process in about 10 or less years.
We waste billions and trillions on wars and old 20th century medial tech, when we could be developing stem cells out of our own cells, developing nanobots to go in and fix every cell in our bodies and hence make every cell in our bodies YOUNG again.We are supposed to be in one of the fastest moving times in the whole time humans have been on this planet and we still waste resources on bling, endless wars and with every industrialzied country in the world supporting huge military budgets...its simply insane.
Perhaps china will be the next country to take advantage of high tech nanotech, after all, their culture tends to appreciate more the possibility of life extension technology and AI, unlike the west with it's christian dislike of AI (see: frankenstien) and christian dying and going to heaven dogma.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388064</id>
	<title>What is that for a question?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267961940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You should \_not even have to\_ ask yourself this question - healthcare should never put such responsibility into an affected person's hand!</p><p>The US seriously needs to fix its healthcare system.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You should \ _not even have to \ _ ask yourself this question - healthcare should never put such responsibility into an affected person 's hand ! The US seriously needs to fix its healthcare system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You should \_not even have to\_ ask yourself this question - healthcare should never put such responsibility into an affected person's hand!The US seriously needs to fix its healthcare system.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31401644</id>
	<title>You are missing the point entirely.</title>
	<author>jotaeleemeese</author>
	<datestamp>1268069280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That amount of money is used to pay for people in old age.</p><p>When you become old there will be young people wondering why they should pay 300 euros a month for health care they don't use while you receive civilized health care that you may not have been able to afford otherwise.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That amount of money is used to pay for people in old age.When you become old there will be young people wondering why they should pay 300 euros a month for health care they do n't use while you receive civilized health care that you may not have been able to afford otherwise .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That amount of money is used to pay for people in old age.When you become old there will be young people wondering why they should pay 300 euros a month for health care they don't use while you receive civilized health care that you may not have been able to afford otherwise.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388082</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388448</id>
	<title>Billing and Payments</title>
	<author>gordguide</author>
	<datestamp>1267967460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was struck by the information provided in TFA about the billed prices and the negotiated payments.</p><p>(If you didn't bother reading it) several times she mentions that her insurer paid a negotiated rate for a procedure or drug, and that negotiated rate varied when she switched jobs and changed insurers. Discounts she mentions varied roughly from perhaps 20\% to sometimes far more than 50\%; individual insurers would negotiate what they were willing to pay for something and the hospital would agree to consider that amount to be paid in full, regardless of the hospital's standard billed amount for that "something".</p><p>It led me to wonder whom, actually, pays the full amount? Then it struck me. The uninsured do.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was struck by the information provided in TFA about the billed prices and the negotiated payments .
( If you did n't bother reading it ) several times she mentions that her insurer paid a negotiated rate for a procedure or drug , and that negotiated rate varied when she switched jobs and changed insurers .
Discounts she mentions varied roughly from perhaps 20 \ % to sometimes far more than 50 \ % ; individual insurers would negotiate what they were willing to pay for something and the hospital would agree to consider that amount to be paid in full , regardless of the hospital 's standard billed amount for that " something " .It led me to wonder whom , actually , pays the full amount ?
Then it struck me .
The uninsured do .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was struck by the information provided in TFA about the billed prices and the negotiated payments.
(If you didn't bother reading it) several times she mentions that her insurer paid a negotiated rate for a procedure or drug, and that negotiated rate varied when she switched jobs and changed insurers.
Discounts she mentions varied roughly from perhaps 20\% to sometimes far more than 50\%; individual insurers would negotiate what they were willing to pay for something and the hospital would agree to consider that amount to be paid in full, regardless of the hospital's standard billed amount for that "something".It led me to wonder whom, actually, pays the full amount?
Then it struck me.
The uninsured do.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31402960</id>
	<title>Re:A third path</title>
	<author>Sockatume</author>
	<datestamp>1268075520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Empirically</i>, cryonics doesn't work. There's not a human being in the world who has ever survived a course of treatment involving sustained cryonic suspension. That's not to say it <i>won't</i> work, but the survival-rate-per-buck has to get pretty low for the option with a hard-zero survival rate to become preferable. When cryonics starts saving some lives, then it'll be something worth choosing for more than intellectual curiosity. Right now it's empirically as viable as trying to reincarnate someone's mind in a clone using their Livejournal entries.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Empirically , cryonics does n't work .
There 's not a human being in the world who has ever survived a course of treatment involving sustained cryonic suspension .
That 's not to say it wo n't work , but the survival-rate-per-buck has to get pretty low for the option with a hard-zero survival rate to become preferable .
When cryonics starts saving some lives , then it 'll be something worth choosing for more than intellectual curiosity .
Right now it 's empirically as viable as trying to reincarnate someone 's mind in a clone using their Livejournal entries .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Empirically, cryonics doesn't work.
There's not a human being in the world who has ever survived a course of treatment involving sustained cryonic suspension.
That's not to say it won't work, but the survival-rate-per-buck has to get pretty low for the option with a hard-zero survival rate to become preferable.
When cryonics starts saving some lives, then it'll be something worth choosing for more than intellectual curiosity.
Right now it's empirically as viable as trying to reincarnate someone's mind in a clone using their Livejournal entries.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31391736</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388776</id>
	<title>Re:Just sick?</title>
	<author>Vector7</author>
	<datestamp>1267971540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The inability of some people to put kneejerk emotional reactions aside and rationally consider whether it's reasonable to spend a considerable fraction of many people's total lifetime earnings for the sake of extending the life of a very sick person for a few months or years is disconcerting. It's fine and good to pretend money is no object when you aren't the one paying for it, nor the one suffering bedridden and perhaps barely conscious. When you consider your typical middle class American spends most of their life working to pay off a few hundred thousand dollar mortgage, burning through that much or more on a person with a terminal illness is in some sense like throwing the life's work of another person away. Unless you're willing to be that person, pipe down.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The inability of some people to put kneejerk emotional reactions aside and rationally consider whether it 's reasonable to spend a considerable fraction of many people 's total lifetime earnings for the sake of extending the life of a very sick person for a few months or years is disconcerting .
It 's fine and good to pretend money is no object when you are n't the one paying for it , nor the one suffering bedridden and perhaps barely conscious .
When you consider your typical middle class American spends most of their life working to pay off a few hundred thousand dollar mortgage , burning through that much or more on a person with a terminal illness is in some sense like throwing the life 's work of another person away .
Unless you 're willing to be that person , pipe down .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The inability of some people to put kneejerk emotional reactions aside and rationally consider whether it's reasonable to spend a considerable fraction of many people's total lifetime earnings for the sake of extending the life of a very sick person for a few months or years is disconcerting.
It's fine and good to pretend money is no object when you aren't the one paying for it, nor the one suffering bedridden and perhaps barely conscious.
When you consider your typical middle class American spends most of their life working to pay off a few hundred thousand dollar mortgage, burning through that much or more on a person with a terminal illness is in some sense like throwing the life's work of another person away.
Unless you're willing to be that person, pipe down.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388198</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31392902</id>
	<title>Don't Understand the Question</title>
	<author>loox</author>
	<datestamp>1267994640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>AFAIK, the cost of keeping Mr. Bennett alive even if ill could be more advantageous for the community than the cost of keeping his wife alive even if healthy.</p><p>What about the cost of keeping Stephen Hawking alive? Let's terminate Mrs. Bennett and make better use of her money.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>AFAIK , the cost of keeping Mr. Bennett alive even if ill could be more advantageous for the community than the cost of keeping his wife alive even if healthy.What about the cost of keeping Stephen Hawking alive ?
Let 's terminate Mrs. Bennett and make better use of her money .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>AFAIK, the cost of keeping Mr. Bennett alive even if ill could be more advantageous for the community than the cost of keeping his wife alive even if healthy.What about the cost of keeping Stephen Hawking alive?
Let's terminate Mrs. Bennett and make better use of her money.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388422</id>
	<title>easy enough</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267967160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>it's time to quit when he doesn't want to extend his life or when you *are* sure that the treatments wont help extend his life.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>it 's time to quit when he does n't want to extend his life or when you * are * sure that the treatments wont help extend his life .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>it's time to quit when he doesn't want to extend his life or when you *are* sure that the treatments wont help extend his life.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31392576</id>
	<title>Re:Easy</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267992660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>the church has no say in it either way. stop putting spin on this shit by bashing religion. if the church has so much influence in the medical arena then explain to me how abortion is still legal?<br>
&nbsp; <br>you're just another slashdork with a hair up his/her ass. get over it and be real.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>the church has no say in it either way .
stop putting spin on this shit by bashing religion .
if the church has so much influence in the medical arena then explain to me how abortion is still legal ?
  you 're just another slashdork with a hair up his/her ass .
get over it and be real .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>the church has no say in it either way.
stop putting spin on this shit by bashing religion.
if the church has so much influence in the medical arena then explain to me how abortion is still legal?
  you're just another slashdork with a hair up his/her ass.
get over it and be real.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388090</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389294</id>
	<title>Re:Wrong question</title>
	<author>Homburg</author>
	<datestamp>1267974180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>These things need to be left in the hands of experts.</p></div><p>Absolutely. I know I'm not qualified to make all kinds of decisions about my healthcare, and so I don't <em>want</em> to be in a position where I'm forced to make them. And I suspect I may well be incapable of making a rational decision about end-of-life care for someone I love (thank god, I've never yet been in that position), and I don't want to be in a position where I have to decide something incredibly important, where I know I'm incapable of making a good decision in this instance.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>These things need to be left in the hands of experts.Absolutely .
I know I 'm not qualified to make all kinds of decisions about my healthcare , and so I do n't want to be in a position where I 'm forced to make them .
And I suspect I may well be incapable of making a rational decision about end-of-life care for someone I love ( thank god , I 've never yet been in that position ) , and I do n't want to be in a position where I have to decide something incredibly important , where I know I 'm incapable of making a good decision in this instance .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>These things need to be left in the hands of experts.Absolutely.
I know I'm not qualified to make all kinds of decisions about my healthcare, and so I don't want to be in a position where I'm forced to make them.
And I suspect I may well be incapable of making a rational decision about end-of-life care for someone I love (thank god, I've never yet been in that position), and I don't want to be in a position where I have to decide something incredibly important, where I know I'm incapable of making a good decision in this instance.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388054</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31400344</id>
	<title>Re:Easy</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268062140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Do you deny the "to each according to his need" you're implying to be inherently Marxist?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do you deny the " to each according to his need " you 're implying to be inherently Marxist ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Do you deny the "to each according to his need" you're implying to be inherently Marxist?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388090</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388150</id>
	<title>Tis a sad day</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267963200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>It is a sad day when one decides to value the dollar worth of a human life.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It is a sad day when one decides to value the dollar worth of a human life .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is a sad day when one decides to value the dollar worth of a human life.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390694</id>
	<title>Re:Tis a sad day</title>
	<author>cervo</author>
	<datestamp>1267982520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Well I see an awful lot of doctors driving Bentleys/porsches.  They work hard it's true.  But still what's the cost in human life that could be saved from those good things?  I also see awful high premiums on mal practice insurance.<br> <br>
I also can't see not suing a doctor either.  I mean if a doctor causes brain damage and you can no longer work for the rest of your life, then you need to sue for the money to live.  If a doctor causes an expensive mistake that requires millions in medical treatment to repair or so you can live somewhat pain free, then you need compensation.  Now if a doctor adjusts a bone and it hurts, but it heals and you sue for "pain and suffering" then you shouldn't get a dime.  If it can be proven that the doctor did it wrong and should have done it another well known way to save you pain, then his license should be revoked.<br> <br>
IF a doctor is leaving his surgical instruments in many of his patients, he should be fired.  Once or twice is an honest mistake, over and over again is carelessness.  And if he leaves his surgical instruments in then you should be able to sue for medical bills.  If his instrument ruins your life and makes you unable to work or causes chronic illness/pain then you should sue and not have to pay the treatment.  If it just requires a quick surgery/recovery then you should sue only for the lost days of work, and the medical costs.  No need for 100 million because a pair of scissors was left in your stomach.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Well I see an awful lot of doctors driving Bentleys/porsches .
They work hard it 's true .
But still what 's the cost in human life that could be saved from those good things ?
I also see awful high premiums on mal practice insurance .
I also ca n't see not suing a doctor either .
I mean if a doctor causes brain damage and you can no longer work for the rest of your life , then you need to sue for the money to live .
If a doctor causes an expensive mistake that requires millions in medical treatment to repair or so you can live somewhat pain free , then you need compensation .
Now if a doctor adjusts a bone and it hurts , but it heals and you sue for " pain and suffering " then you should n't get a dime .
If it can be proven that the doctor did it wrong and should have done it another well known way to save you pain , then his license should be revoked .
IF a doctor is leaving his surgical instruments in many of his patients , he should be fired .
Once or twice is an honest mistake , over and over again is carelessness .
And if he leaves his surgical instruments in then you should be able to sue for medical bills .
If his instrument ruins your life and makes you unable to work or causes chronic illness/pain then you should sue and not have to pay the treatment .
If it just requires a quick surgery/recovery then you should sue only for the lost days of work , and the medical costs .
No need for 100 million because a pair of scissors was left in your stomach .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well I see an awful lot of doctors driving Bentleys/porsches.
They work hard it's true.
But still what's the cost in human life that could be saved from those good things?
I also see awful high premiums on mal practice insurance.
I also can't see not suing a doctor either.
I mean if a doctor causes brain damage and you can no longer work for the rest of your life, then you need to sue for the money to live.
If a doctor causes an expensive mistake that requires millions in medical treatment to repair or so you can live somewhat pain free, then you need compensation.
Now if a doctor adjusts a bone and it hurts, but it heals and you sue for "pain and suffering" then you shouldn't get a dime.
If it can be proven that the doctor did it wrong and should have done it another well known way to save you pain, then his license should be revoked.
IF a doctor is leaving his surgical instruments in many of his patients, he should be fired.
Once or twice is an honest mistake, over and over again is carelessness.
And if he leaves his surgical instruments in then you should be able to sue for medical bills.
If his instrument ruins your life and makes you unable to work or causes chronic illness/pain then you should sue and not have to pay the treatment.
If it just requires a quick surgery/recovery then you should sue only for the lost days of work, and the medical costs.
No need for 100 million because a pair of scissors was left in your stomach.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388456</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389040</id>
	<title>Not a financial decision, unless you're out of $$$</title>
	<author>syousef</author>
	<datestamp>1267972860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If it was me it would not be a financial decision unless I had run out of money.</p><p>But then I'm not sure I'd hang around either.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If it was me it would not be a financial decision unless I had run out of money.But then I 'm not sure I 'd hang around either .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If it was me it would not be a financial decision unless I had run out of money.But then I'm not sure I'd hang around either.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388174</id>
	<title>Isn't slashdot for cutting edge IT news?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267963620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Like a lot of slashdot stories lately, why is this even on slashdot?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Like a lot of slashdot stories lately , why is this even on slashdot ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Like a lot of slashdot stories lately, why is this even on slashdot?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31392686</id>
	<title>Re:So how much was for actual medical care?</title>
	<author>CodeBuster</author>
	<datestamp>1267993260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>starting with a massive markup on medicine which isn't seen elsewhere</p></div><p>It isn't seen elsewhere because most other countries have slapped price controls on prescription drugs. However, before you wax poetic about how wonderful those crafty Canadians and Europeans and their health care systems are, it might be interesting to consider where better than 90\% of new drug research and development occurs. If you guessed 'the United States' then you were right. Other countries have been free riding off the benefits of US research and development in cutting edge drugs; financed by high prices for American consumers. It will be <i> <b>very</b> </i> interesting to see what happens when and if the United States also slaps priced controls on prescription drugs. If nobody is left to pay premium drug prices to support new research then these drugs simply won't be developed unless the governments of the world step in to make up the difference currently being funded by the generosity of US health care consumers. I doubt that the various socialized health care systems around the world would be successful at that; even if they tried.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>starting with a massive markup on medicine which is n't seen elsewhereIt is n't seen elsewhere because most other countries have slapped price controls on prescription drugs .
However , before you wax poetic about how wonderful those crafty Canadians and Europeans and their health care systems are , it might be interesting to consider where better than 90 \ % of new drug research and development occurs .
If you guessed 'the United States ' then you were right .
Other countries have been free riding off the benefits of US research and development in cutting edge drugs ; financed by high prices for American consumers .
It will be very interesting to see what happens when and if the United States also slaps priced controls on prescription drugs .
If nobody is left to pay premium drug prices to support new research then these drugs simply wo n't be developed unless the governments of the world step in to make up the difference currently being funded by the generosity of US health care consumers .
I doubt that the various socialized health care systems around the world would be successful at that ; even if they tried .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>starting with a massive markup on medicine which isn't seen elsewhereIt isn't seen elsewhere because most other countries have slapped price controls on prescription drugs.
However, before you wax poetic about how wonderful those crafty Canadians and Europeans and their health care systems are, it might be interesting to consider where better than 90\% of new drug research and development occurs.
If you guessed 'the United States' then you were right.
Other countries have been free riding off the benefits of US research and development in cutting edge drugs; financed by high prices for American consumers.
It will be  very  interesting to see what happens when and if the United States also slaps priced controls on prescription drugs.
If nobody is left to pay premium drug prices to support new research then these drugs simply won't be developed unless the governments of the world step in to make up the difference currently being funded by the generosity of US health care consumers.
I doubt that the various socialized health care systems around the world would be successful at that; even if they tried.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388062</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31392500</id>
	<title>Learn from vets</title>
	<author>Moof123</author>
	<datestamp>1267992000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The ability to put a suffering animal down lies in stark contrast to how inhumanely we treat suffering humans.</p><p>Having to just "make her comfortable" while she swore at god, and asked to just end the pain solidified my views on the subject.  We all need control over our own off switch (or reset switch, if that's your faith).  I'd rather die under my own power while still alert and not in drastic pain.</p><p>If however you want to fight, and have the money to fight, then by all means have the conversation with the relevant family members and go into the whole process with everyone understanding the game plan.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The ability to put a suffering animal down lies in stark contrast to how inhumanely we treat suffering humans.Having to just " make her comfortable " while she swore at god , and asked to just end the pain solidified my views on the subject .
We all need control over our own off switch ( or reset switch , if that 's your faith ) .
I 'd rather die under my own power while still alert and not in drastic pain.If however you want to fight , and have the money to fight , then by all means have the conversation with the relevant family members and go into the whole process with everyone understanding the game plan .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The ability to put a suffering animal down lies in stark contrast to how inhumanely we treat suffering humans.Having to just "make her comfortable" while she swore at god, and asked to just end the pain solidified my views on the subject.
We all need control over our own off switch (or reset switch, if that's your faith).
I'd rather die under my own power while still alert and not in drastic pain.If however you want to fight, and have the money to fight, then by all means have the conversation with the relevant family members and go into the whole process with everyone understanding the game plan.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31391958</id>
	<title>If the patient wants to die, they should die.</title>
	<author>moxley</author>
	<datestamp>1267989300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If the patient is terminal and wants to die, they should die when they wish to; by whatever means are necessary...The fact that the government prosecutes people in some places for euthanasia is disgusting.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If the patient is terminal and wants to die , they should die when they wish to ; by whatever means are necessary...The fact that the government prosecutes people in some places for euthanasia is disgusting .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the patient is terminal and wants to die, they should die when they wish to; by whatever means are necessary...The fact that the government prosecutes people in some places for euthanasia is disgusting.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390532</id>
	<title>Re:And the point is?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267981560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"She worked for companies with great health insurance plans, he got cancer and they provided health care that kept him alive several years longer than expected. What's the problem? Would she be happier if the insurance company kept her money and told him to die?"</p><p>There, fixed it for ya.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" She worked for companies with great health insurance plans , he got cancer and they provided health care that kept him alive several years longer than expected .
What 's the problem ?
Would she be happier if the insurance company kept her money and told him to die ?
" There , fixed it for ya .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"She worked for companies with great health insurance plans, he got cancer and they provided health care that kept him alive several years longer than expected.
What's the problem?
Would she be happier if the insurance company kept her money and told him to die?
"There, fixed it for ya.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388790</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388198</id>
	<title>Just sick?</title>
	<author>[Arkan]</author>
	<datestamp>1267963920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is like putting a price on one's life. Even asking such a question is disgusting, and shows a complete lack of humanity.</p><p>I can't even imagine the mindset that can push someone to formulate such a question.</p><p>I think this is an huge hint that our society as a whole as gone south. Prove me wrong, please prove me wrong.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is like putting a price on one 's life .
Even asking such a question is disgusting , and shows a complete lack of humanity.I ca n't even imagine the mindset that can push someone to formulate such a question.I think this is an huge hint that our society as a whole as gone south .
Prove me wrong , please prove me wrong .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is like putting a price on one's life.
Even asking such a question is disgusting, and shows a complete lack of humanity.I can't even imagine the mindset that can push someone to formulate such a question.I think this is an huge hint that our society as a whole as gone south.
Prove me wrong, please prove me wrong.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31392538</id>
	<title>Re:Tis a sad day</title>
	<author>Blakey Rat</author>
	<datestamp>1267992300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Could be worse.</p><p>In history, there have been many times in many places where life has no value whatsoever. "Noble"men frequently tested the quality of their swords by killing peasants with them. Think of the millions killed by Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao Zedong, Adolf Hitler-- that was just recently!</p><p>Look, the fact that you're alive in the 21st century at all? It's not a sad day, it's an awesome joyous day and better than any other time in history. Be happy that he lived in a society well-off enough to be able to diagnose cancer as an illness, instead of thinking the cause was a curse, or bad humors, or demonic possession.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Could be worse.In history , there have been many times in many places where life has no value whatsoever .
" Noble " men frequently tested the quality of their swords by killing peasants with them .
Think of the millions killed by Pol Pot , Stalin , Mao Zedong , Adolf Hitler-- that was just recently ! Look , the fact that you 're alive in the 21st century at all ?
It 's not a sad day , it 's an awesome joyous day and better than any other time in history .
Be happy that he lived in a society well-off enough to be able to diagnose cancer as an illness , instead of thinking the cause was a curse , or bad humors , or demonic possession .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Could be worse.In history, there have been many times in many places where life has no value whatsoever.
"Noble"men frequently tested the quality of their swords by killing peasants with them.
Think of the millions killed by Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao Zedong, Adolf Hitler-- that was just recently!Look, the fact that you're alive in the 21st century at all?
It's not a sad day, it's an awesome joyous day and better than any other time in history.
Be happy that he lived in a society well-off enough to be able to diagnose cancer as an illness, instead of thinking the cause was a curse, or bad humors, or demonic possession.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388150</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31397502</id>
	<title>Re:Easy</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267984980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...and when the patient is in a persistive vegetative state? what then?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...and when the patient is in a persistive vegetative state ?
what then ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...and when the patient is in a persistive vegetative state?
what then?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388090</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388314</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe she can answer in hindsight</title>
	<author>Kijori</author>
	<datestamp>1267965780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The studies I have seen put American and European survival rates at about the same level, with normally a slight advantage to the Americans, although critics point out that reporting differences (for example, in Great Britain anyone diagnosed with cancer is included in the survival figures, while in America deaths that may not be related are not counted, plus many American hospitals publish only estimated survival percentages rather than actual counts), differing access to treatment (if you don't go to the hospital you won't get counted, which could stack the deck against socialised healthcare) and uncontrolled variables (incidence of cancers is lower across much of Europe, possibly because of differences in the health care systems) make comparisons contrived at best.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The studies I have seen put American and European survival rates at about the same level , with normally a slight advantage to the Americans , although critics point out that reporting differences ( for example , in Great Britain anyone diagnosed with cancer is included in the survival figures , while in America deaths that may not be related are not counted , plus many American hospitals publish only estimated survival percentages rather than actual counts ) , differing access to treatment ( if you do n't go to the hospital you wo n't get counted , which could stack the deck against socialised healthcare ) and uncontrolled variables ( incidence of cancers is lower across much of Europe , possibly because of differences in the health care systems ) make comparisons contrived at best .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The studies I have seen put American and European survival rates at about the same level, with normally a slight advantage to the Americans, although critics point out that reporting differences (for example, in Great Britain anyone diagnosed with cancer is included in the survival figures, while in America deaths that may not be related are not counted, plus many American hospitals publish only estimated survival percentages rather than actual counts), differing access to treatment (if you don't go to the hospital you won't get counted, which could stack the deck against socialised healthcare) and uncontrolled variables (incidence of cancers is lower across much of Europe, possibly because of differences in the health care systems) make comparisons contrived at best.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388156</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390782</id>
	<title>Re:After just watching The Matrix again ...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267983060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah, that's a fine logical point of view.<br>You've got no right to spout it, though, until YOU have had to stare the grim reaper in the face every remaining day of your life as a fact of reality that simply will not go away.</p><p>It's one thing to know that "someday I will day", and entirely different thing to know "I'm dying right now unless something changes".</p><p>As others have stated here, the choice to continue (or not) should be *entirely* up to the affected person.<br>Nobody else should get a say.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , that 's a fine logical point of view.You 've got no right to spout it , though , until YOU have had to stare the grim reaper in the face every remaining day of your life as a fact of reality that simply will not go away.It 's one thing to know that " someday I will day " , and entirely different thing to know " I 'm dying right now unless something changes " .As others have stated here , the choice to continue ( or not ) should be * entirely * up to the affected person.Nobody else should get a say .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, that's a fine logical point of view.You've got no right to spout it, though, until YOU have had to stare the grim reaper in the face every remaining day of your life as a fact of reality that simply will not go away.It's one thing to know that "someday I will day", and entirely different thing to know "I'm dying right now unless something changes".As others have stated here, the choice to continue (or not) should be *entirely* up to the affected person.Nobody else should get a say.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388166</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31392610</id>
	<title>Re:Easy</title>
	<author>igny</author>
	<datestamp>1267992900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>It's time to quit when the patient says it's time, and it's not the business of the spouse, the church, or the government to decide otherwise.
</i> <br> <br>
But later he may change his mind and be pissed at his wife for listening to him.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's time to quit when the patient says it 's time , and it 's not the business of the spouse , the church , or the government to decide otherwise .
But later he may change his mind and be pissed at his wife for listening to him .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's time to quit when the patient says it's time, and it's not the business of the spouse, the church, or the government to decide otherwise.
But later he may change his mind and be pissed at his wife for listening to him.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388090</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388918</id>
	<title>Patients don't care about cost</title>
	<author>markdavis</author>
	<datestamp>1267972320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>One of the big breakdown factors in end-of-life care is that extremely rarely does the patient or their family pay any of that HUGE amount of money (or they pay very little).  It is either private or government insurance footing the bills.  Of course life has value, and it would suck to be denied coverage, but most people DON'T CARE about the cost and will sign ANY form to extend life, regardless.  I see it all the time.  If they had to give up their family home, or sell their cars, or wipe their retirement plans to extend someone's life by a few weeks or months, I doubt the decisions would be the same.</p><p>It is an impossible situation to be in with no real solution.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>One of the big breakdown factors in end-of-life care is that extremely rarely does the patient or their family pay any of that HUGE amount of money ( or they pay very little ) .
It is either private or government insurance footing the bills .
Of course life has value , and it would suck to be denied coverage , but most people DO N'T CARE about the cost and will sign ANY form to extend life , regardless .
I see it all the time .
If they had to give up their family home , or sell their cars , or wipe their retirement plans to extend someone 's life by a few weeks or months , I doubt the decisions would be the same.It is an impossible situation to be in with no real solution .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One of the big breakdown factors in end-of-life care is that extremely rarely does the patient or their family pay any of that HUGE amount of money (or they pay very little).
It is either private or government insurance footing the bills.
Of course life has value, and it would suck to be denied coverage, but most people DON'T CARE about the cost and will sign ANY form to extend life, regardless.
I see it all the time.
If they had to give up their family home, or sell their cars, or wipe their retirement plans to extend someone's life by a few weeks or months, I doubt the decisions would be the same.It is an impossible situation to be in with no real solution.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388790</id>
	<title>And the point is?</title>
	<author>BinBoy</author>
	<datestamp>1267971660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well I made it about halfway through the article before my eyes glazed over.  He worked for companies with great health insurance plans, he got cancer and they provided health care that kept him alive several years longer than expected.  What's the problem?  Would she be happier if the insurance company kept his money and told him to die?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well I made it about halfway through the article before my eyes glazed over .
He worked for companies with great health insurance plans , he got cancer and they provided health care that kept him alive several years longer than expected .
What 's the problem ?
Would she be happier if the insurance company kept his money and told him to die ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well I made it about halfway through the article before my eyes glazed over.
He worked for companies with great health insurance plans, he got cancer and they provided health care that kept him alive several years longer than expected.
What's the problem?
Would she be happier if the insurance company kept his money and told him to die?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31396828</id>
	<title>It's a very relevant question.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267978140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Otherwise the responsibility of a person's life (a loved one's life) will be in the caring hands of bureaucrats. Who, let me tell you, take very little time to develop the attitude of "there are too many of you and just one of me, get lost". Ultimately, there is NO ONE who should be assuming responsibility for a free man's affairs -- unless you enjoy spending time in lines to get your papers stamped "reject".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Otherwise the responsibility of a person 's life ( a loved one 's life ) will be in the caring hands of bureaucrats .
Who , let me tell you , take very little time to develop the attitude of " there are too many of you and just one of me , get lost " .
Ultimately , there is NO ONE who should be assuming responsibility for a free man 's affairs -- unless you enjoy spending time in lines to get your papers stamped " reject " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Otherwise the responsibility of a person's life (a loved one's life) will be in the caring hands of bureaucrats.
Who, let me tell you, take very little time to develop the attitude of "there are too many of you and just one of me, get lost".
Ultimately, there is NO ONE who should be assuming responsibility for a free man's affairs -- unless you enjoy spending time in lines to get your papers stamped "reject".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388064</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31395900</id>
	<title>Re:Easy</title>
	<author>ben\_white</author>
	<datestamp>1267971420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>It's time to quit when the patient says it's time, and it's not the business of the spouse, the church, or the government to decide otherwise.</p></div><p>Who pays the bill in your scenario?  It is easy to say it's the patients choice, and if the patient is paying the bill no problem.  The problem becomes when we socialize the financial risk of serious medical illness (either through government run programs like Medicare and Medicaid, or through premiums paid to private insurance corporations).  Now other people are fitting the bill!  That is what this whole article is about.  Patients often make different decisions on proceeding with care based on whether they or some third party is fitting the bill.  I've seen it first hand more times that I can count.  Treatment A has a 10\% chance of giving you 6 more months but costs $10,000.  If a third party is paying 80-90\% of patients jump at the chance.  If it is out of their pockets (even in patients who can afford that kind of money) this rate drops significantly.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's time to quit when the patient says it 's time , and it 's not the business of the spouse , the church , or the government to decide otherwise.Who pays the bill in your scenario ?
It is easy to say it 's the patients choice , and if the patient is paying the bill no problem .
The problem becomes when we socialize the financial risk of serious medical illness ( either through government run programs like Medicare and Medicaid , or through premiums paid to private insurance corporations ) .
Now other people are fitting the bill !
That is what this whole article is about .
Patients often make different decisions on proceeding with care based on whether they or some third party is fitting the bill .
I 've seen it first hand more times that I can count .
Treatment A has a 10 \ % chance of giving you 6 more months but costs $ 10,000 .
If a third party is paying 80-90 \ % of patients jump at the chance .
If it is out of their pockets ( even in patients who can afford that kind of money ) this rate drops significantly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's time to quit when the patient says it's time, and it's not the business of the spouse, the church, or the government to decide otherwise.Who pays the bill in your scenario?
It is easy to say it's the patients choice, and if the patient is paying the bill no problem.
The problem becomes when we socialize the financial risk of serious medical illness (either through government run programs like Medicare and Medicaid, or through premiums paid to private insurance corporations).
Now other people are fitting the bill!
That is what this whole article is about.
Patients often make different decisions on proceeding with care based on whether they or some third party is fitting the bill.
I've seen it first hand more times that I can count.
Treatment A has a 10\% chance of giving you 6 more months but costs $10,000.
If a third party is paying 80-90\% of patients jump at the chance.
If it is out of their pockets (even in patients who can afford that kind of money) this rate drops significantly.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388090</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31395382</id>
	<title>Re:Easy</title>
	<author>RightSaidFred99</author>
	<datestamp>1267968180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Huh?  Certainly if the patient can pay the bills this is the case.  What if someone else (insurance company, tax payers) are footing the bill?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Huh ?
Certainly if the patient can pay the bills this is the case .
What if someone else ( insurance company , tax payers ) are footing the bill ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Huh?
Certainly if the patient can pay the bills this is the case.
What if someone else (insurance company, tax payers) are footing the bill?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388090</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388428</id>
	<title>I think that it's pretty much always worth it</title>
	<author>vadim\_t</author>
	<datestamp>1267967280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>True, it's horrendously expensive. But that money pays for research, and that research will allow people to stay alive or even get cured a lot cheaper later.</p><p>People aren't going to pay half a million for battling cancer forever. At some point it'll be understood and become curable with a few of the right pills and injections. But for that to happen, somebody needs to try the less understood or experimental treatments and see if it works out.</p><p>Incidentally, I believe that paying for the "vaccine for nearly a quarter million children in developing countries" is on the long term a rather pointless thing. Doing it that way we'll just be shipping vaccines over there forever. Instead, money should be invested on infrastructure in those countries that need it, so that they can manufacture their own vaccines. Also, actually allowing those countries to manufacture them by eliminating the need to obey the patents would do a whole lot more of good.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>True , it 's horrendously expensive .
But that money pays for research , and that research will allow people to stay alive or even get cured a lot cheaper later.People are n't going to pay half a million for battling cancer forever .
At some point it 'll be understood and become curable with a few of the right pills and injections .
But for that to happen , somebody needs to try the less understood or experimental treatments and see if it works out.Incidentally , I believe that paying for the " vaccine for nearly a quarter million children in developing countries " is on the long term a rather pointless thing .
Doing it that way we 'll just be shipping vaccines over there forever .
Instead , money should be invested on infrastructure in those countries that need it , so that they can manufacture their own vaccines .
Also , actually allowing those countries to manufacture them by eliminating the need to obey the patents would do a whole lot more of good .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>True, it's horrendously expensive.
But that money pays for research, and that research will allow people to stay alive or even get cured a lot cheaper later.People aren't going to pay half a million for battling cancer forever.
At some point it'll be understood and become curable with a few of the right pills and injections.
But for that to happen, somebody needs to try the less understood or experimental treatments and see if it works out.Incidentally, I believe that paying for the "vaccine for nearly a quarter million children in developing countries" is on the long term a rather pointless thing.
Doing it that way we'll just be shipping vaccines over there forever.
Instead, money should be invested on infrastructure in those countries that need it, so that they can manufacture their own vaccines.
Also, actually allowing those countries to manufacture them by eliminating the need to obey the patents would do a whole lot more of good.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389112</id>
	<title>The entire medical establishment needs an acidbath</title>
	<author>m\_number4</author>
	<datestamp>1267973280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The whole medical establishment has positioned itself to take full advantage of the sick and its cosy ties with the never ending government funding $$$ machine. They have their claws into everything and they scratch each others back i.e the doctors and big drug companies.
It's going to take a lot of work but the whole system needs dismantling, the large medical corporations need to be put in their place and made non profit, the specialists and doctors need to be taught how to care for their patients instead their bank accounts. The whole establishment needs an acid bath and a new beginning. We need to start at the medical schools to ensure the future doctors are in it for the right reasons.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The whole medical establishment has positioned itself to take full advantage of the sick and its cosy ties with the never ending government funding $ $ $ machine .
They have their claws into everything and they scratch each others back i.e the doctors and big drug companies .
It 's going to take a lot of work but the whole system needs dismantling , the large medical corporations need to be put in their place and made non profit , the specialists and doctors need to be taught how to care for their patients instead their bank accounts .
The whole establishment needs an acid bath and a new beginning .
We need to start at the medical schools to ensure the future doctors are in it for the right reasons .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The whole medical establishment has positioned itself to take full advantage of the sick and its cosy ties with the never ending government funding $$$ machine.
They have their claws into everything and they scratch each others back i.e the doctors and big drug companies.
It's going to take a lot of work but the whole system needs dismantling, the large medical corporations need to be put in their place and made non profit, the specialists and doctors need to be taught how to care for their patients instead their bank accounts.
The whole establishment needs an acid bath and a new beginning.
We need to start at the medical schools to ensure the future doctors are in it for the right reasons.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390482</id>
	<title>Re:Tis a sad day</title>
	<author>nedlohs</author>
	<datestamp>1267981260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You make decision every time you buy a coke instead of spending the money to vaccinate a child in Africa.</p><p>And the answer you come up with is: a life is worth less than consuming something with negative nutritional value.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You make decision every time you buy a coke instead of spending the money to vaccinate a child in Africa.And the answer you come up with is : a life is worth less than consuming something with negative nutritional value .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You make decision every time you buy a coke instead of spending the money to vaccinate a child in Africa.And the answer you come up with is: a life is worth less than consuming something with negative nutritional value.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388150</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31391870</id>
	<title>The UK model (the QALY)</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267988820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How much is one year worth? about &pound;30,000 (in perfect health, about &pound;20000 if that extra year is spent in hospital). http://www.nice.org.uk/newsroom/features/measuringeffectivenessandcosteffectivenesstheqaly.jsp</p><p>Simes that by about 3 for end of life conditions so thats about &pound;90,000 per extra year. Of course if the treatments may cure someone, then you get eg 20 years extra life, then the allownce would be &pound;600,000. So it all comes down to calculating how likely the treatment is to save someone, which is REALLY HARD.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How much is one year worth ?
about   30,000 ( in perfect health , about   20000 if that extra year is spent in hospital ) .
http : //www.nice.org.uk/newsroom/features/measuringeffectivenessandcosteffectivenesstheqaly.jspSimes that by about 3 for end of life conditions so thats about   90,000 per extra year .
Of course if the treatments may cure someone , then you get eg 20 years extra life , then the allownce would be   600,000 .
So it all comes down to calculating how likely the treatment is to save someone , which is REALLY HARD .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How much is one year worth?
about £30,000 (in perfect health, about £20000 if that extra year is spent in hospital).
http://www.nice.org.uk/newsroom/features/measuringeffectivenessandcosteffectivenesstheqaly.jspSimes that by about 3 for end of life conditions so thats about £90,000 per extra year.
Of course if the treatments may cure someone, then you get eg 20 years extra life, then the allownce would be £600,000.
So it all comes down to calculating how likely the treatment is to save someone, which is REALLY HARD.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390756</id>
	<title>Re:So how much was for actual medical care?</title>
	<author>locallyunscene</author>
	<datestamp>1267982880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You're right there are a lot of problems with healthcare, but it sounds like you're trying to lay a lot of blame on hospitals doorsteps. In reality they're just dealing with the bad decisions made by a lot of people.
<br> <br>
The prices in a hospital bill to the uninsured are more or less based on two things: the price medicare sets for a procedure(because insurance companies base their reimbursements on that number), and the difference between the medicare reimbursement and the actual cost of care. This is why the busiest hospitals are the ones that fail to stay open. Most uninsured simply can't pay their hospital bills and emergency rooms are the "catch all" in our current "system". You cannot legally be turned away from an emergency room even if you don't have a life-threatening condition. As a result, a lot of the poor who can't afford health-services use that to get their basic healthcare needs met.
<br> <br>
You also have to realize that the cost of care in an emergency room is going to be a lot higher than pretty much any other way to get care due to the cases you just described.  Triage is at play- SICK people go to an emergency room, and they need services RIGHT AWAY.  You're paying for lifesaving convenience and expertise with limited and in-demand resources. If you go to the emergency room to get aspirin for your headache you're potentially diverting it from someone who needs it for a heart attack, so that aspirin must be restocked right away.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're right there are a lot of problems with healthcare , but it sounds like you 're trying to lay a lot of blame on hospitals doorsteps .
In reality they 're just dealing with the bad decisions made by a lot of people .
The prices in a hospital bill to the uninsured are more or less based on two things : the price medicare sets for a procedure ( because insurance companies base their reimbursements on that number ) , and the difference between the medicare reimbursement and the actual cost of care .
This is why the busiest hospitals are the ones that fail to stay open .
Most uninsured simply ca n't pay their hospital bills and emergency rooms are the " catch all " in our current " system " .
You can not legally be turned away from an emergency room even if you do n't have a life-threatening condition .
As a result , a lot of the poor who ca n't afford health-services use that to get their basic healthcare needs met .
You also have to realize that the cost of care in an emergency room is going to be a lot higher than pretty much any other way to get care due to the cases you just described .
Triage is at play- SICK people go to an emergency room , and they need services RIGHT AWAY .
You 're paying for lifesaving convenience and expertise with limited and in-demand resources .
If you go to the emergency room to get aspirin for your headache you 're potentially diverting it from someone who needs it for a heart attack , so that aspirin must be restocked right away .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're right there are a lot of problems with healthcare, but it sounds like you're trying to lay a lot of blame on hospitals doorsteps.
In reality they're just dealing with the bad decisions made by a lot of people.
The prices in a hospital bill to the uninsured are more or less based on two things: the price medicare sets for a procedure(because insurance companies base their reimbursements on that number), and the difference between the medicare reimbursement and the actual cost of care.
This is why the busiest hospitals are the ones that fail to stay open.
Most uninsured simply can't pay their hospital bills and emergency rooms are the "catch all" in our current "system".
You cannot legally be turned away from an emergency room even if you don't have a life-threatening condition.
As a result, a lot of the poor who can't afford health-services use that to get their basic healthcare needs met.
You also have to realize that the cost of care in an emergency room is going to be a lot higher than pretty much any other way to get care due to the cases you just described.
Triage is at play- SICK people go to an emergency room, and they need services RIGHT AWAY.
You're paying for lifesaving convenience and expertise with limited and in-demand resources.
If you go to the emergency room to get aspirin for your headache you're potentially diverting it from someone who needs it for a heart attack, so that aspirin must be restocked right away.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388510</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388294</id>
	<title>Economists' approach</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267965420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There actually is a mathematical approach to determining the monetary value that a person associates with their own life by measuring the price they are willing to pay to reduce their risk of dying. Economists use it by comparing job safety to salaries, people's willingness to buy certain automotive safety features, etc.</p><p>Here's a very crude approximation. (IANA economist, so feel free to correct me.) Suppose a demon comes up to you and says that he's about to push a button on a magic box. When he pushes the button, there's a 99\% probability that nothing will happen, but a 1\% probability that the box will kill you. However, he offers not to push the button at all if you pay him a monetary bribe of a certain size. (If demon accepts your bribe, he takes the money 100\% of the time, regardless of what the outcome of the button-press would have been. Assume that you can trust the demon's honesty and that there are no externalities, such as "paying him will only encourage this sort of behavior.") If you think you can't put on a monetary price on a human life, consider: you'd be an idiot not to pay a mere $1 to reduce a 1\% chance of dying to zero, but if the price is your entire net worth, you're certainly better off taking the 99\% chance that you'll be able to continue your life tomorrow <em>without</em> being a penniless beggar. Hence, there must be a number between those two extremes such that paying less is a good idea but paying more is a bad idea. Suppose you rationally decide where that boundary is. Multiply that number by 100, and you have the cash value of your life.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There actually is a mathematical approach to determining the monetary value that a person associates with their own life by measuring the price they are willing to pay to reduce their risk of dying .
Economists use it by comparing job safety to salaries , people 's willingness to buy certain automotive safety features , etc.Here 's a very crude approximation .
( IANA economist , so feel free to correct me .
) Suppose a demon comes up to you and says that he 's about to push a button on a magic box .
When he pushes the button , there 's a 99 \ % probability that nothing will happen , but a 1 \ % probability that the box will kill you .
However , he offers not to push the button at all if you pay him a monetary bribe of a certain size .
( If demon accepts your bribe , he takes the money 100 \ % of the time , regardless of what the outcome of the button-press would have been .
Assume that you can trust the demon 's honesty and that there are no externalities , such as " paying him will only encourage this sort of behavior .
" ) If you think you ca n't put on a monetary price on a human life , consider : you 'd be an idiot not to pay a mere $ 1 to reduce a 1 \ % chance of dying to zero , but if the price is your entire net worth , you 're certainly better off taking the 99 \ % chance that you 'll be able to continue your life tomorrow without being a penniless beggar .
Hence , there must be a number between those two extremes such that paying less is a good idea but paying more is a bad idea .
Suppose you rationally decide where that boundary is .
Multiply that number by 100 , and you have the cash value of your life .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There actually is a mathematical approach to determining the monetary value that a person associates with their own life by measuring the price they are willing to pay to reduce their risk of dying.
Economists use it by comparing job safety to salaries, people's willingness to buy certain automotive safety features, etc.Here's a very crude approximation.
(IANA economist, so feel free to correct me.
) Suppose a demon comes up to you and says that he's about to push a button on a magic box.
When he pushes the button, there's a 99\% probability that nothing will happen, but a 1\% probability that the box will kill you.
However, he offers not to push the button at all if you pay him a monetary bribe of a certain size.
(If demon accepts your bribe, he takes the money 100\% of the time, regardless of what the outcome of the button-press would have been.
Assume that you can trust the demon's honesty and that there are no externalities, such as "paying him will only encourage this sort of behavior.
") If you think you can't put on a monetary price on a human life, consider: you'd be an idiot not to pay a mere $1 to reduce a 1\% chance of dying to zero, but if the price is your entire net worth, you're certainly better off taking the 99\% chance that you'll be able to continue your life tomorrow without being a penniless beggar.
Hence, there must be a number between those two extremes such that paying less is a good idea but paying more is a bad idea.
Suppose you rationally decide where that boundary is.
Multiply that number by 100, and you have the cash value of your life.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388984</id>
	<title>$9,468</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267972620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>From TFA:<br>The entire medical bill for seven years, in fact, was steeply discounted. The $618,616 was lowered to $254,176 when the insurers paid their share and imposed their discounts. The portion of the charges that were not covered for the most part vaporized. Terence and I were responsible for and paid $9,468less than 4\%.</p><p>The total overall cost of treatment was $600k. They 'only' had to pay $10k, thanks to circumstances. That actually makes me happy for the author.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>From TFA : The entire medical bill for seven years , in fact , was steeply discounted .
The $ 618,616 was lowered to $ 254,176 when the insurers paid their share and imposed their discounts .
The portion of the charges that were not covered for the most part vaporized .
Terence and I were responsible for and paid $ 9,468less than 4 \ % .The total overall cost of treatment was $ 600k .
They 'only ' had to pay $ 10k , thanks to circumstances .
That actually makes me happy for the author .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>From TFA:The entire medical bill for seven years, in fact, was steeply discounted.
The $618,616 was lowered to $254,176 when the insurers paid their share and imposed their discounts.
The portion of the charges that were not covered for the most part vaporized.
Terence and I were responsible for and paid $9,468less than 4\%.The total overall cost of treatment was $600k.
They 'only' had to pay $10k, thanks to circumstances.
That actually makes me happy for the author.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388200</id>
	<title>Re:Health Insurance in Germany</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267963920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In your case it's 300 &euro;, but keep in mind that the amount you pay for insurance is directly linked to your income, not to how much you've been sick last year. You could argue it's unfair that you have to subsidize a bunch of students and old people for a while, but it sure beats any other system I've seen. I agree it's not fun to pay the insane amount of insurance and taxes here in Europe, and yes, a huge part of it is going to be wasted on government pork and mismanagement. We need to address that. I'd speculate we could cut those insurance premiums in half if we abolished all the profiteering, corruption and misappropriation. But all in all, it's the price we pay for a pretty decent attempt at social equality.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In your case it 's 300    , but keep in mind that the amount you pay for insurance is directly linked to your income , not to how much you 've been sick last year .
You could argue it 's unfair that you have to subsidize a bunch of students and old people for a while , but it sure beats any other system I 've seen .
I agree it 's not fun to pay the insane amount of insurance and taxes here in Europe , and yes , a huge part of it is going to be wasted on government pork and mismanagement .
We need to address that .
I 'd speculate we could cut those insurance premiums in half if we abolished all the profiteering , corruption and misappropriation .
But all in all , it 's the price we pay for a pretty decent attempt at social equality .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In your case it's 300 €, but keep in mind that the amount you pay for insurance is directly linked to your income, not to how much you've been sick last year.
You could argue it's unfair that you have to subsidize a bunch of students and old people for a while, but it sure beats any other system I've seen.
I agree it's not fun to pay the insane amount of insurance and taxes here in Europe, and yes, a huge part of it is going to be wasted on government pork and mismanagement.
We need to address that.
I'd speculate we could cut those insurance premiums in half if we abolished all the profiteering, corruption and misappropriation.
But all in all, it's the price we pay for a pretty decent attempt at social equality.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388082</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31391158</id>
	<title>Re:Tis a sad day</title>
	<author>roman\_mir</author>
	<datestamp>1267984980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Seriously, you'd deny a dying person some care even though they do have insurance or money to pay for it?  Why don't you instead go after the politicians and the bankers that just stole 2 trillion from the people of your country and use that money instead?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Seriously , you 'd deny a dying person some care even though they do have insurance or money to pay for it ?
Why do n't you instead go after the politicians and the bankers that just stole 2 trillion from the people of your country and use that money instead ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seriously, you'd deny a dying person some care even though they do have insurance or money to pay for it?
Why don't you instead go after the politicians and the bankers that just stole 2 trillion from the people of your country and use that money instead?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388456</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31391374</id>
	<title>our story, maybe this can help</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267986180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>at the age of 26 my wife was at a doctor trying to figure out why her hearing was failing in her right ear. that was the first time we heard about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurofibromatosis\_type\_II and the last time our lives didnt revolve around it. by 28 she had her first brain surgery. by 30 she had another. this is all sad, but not intended for sympathy... the rest of this however should scare the piss out of you.</p><p>we realized that her quality of life would degrade and there would be a point where we would be on 'the down hill fight'. knowing that, we decided to change our lives drastically. we already had great insurance but we will lose it forever if our coverage drops for even a single day. we refocused our lives to 'retire' early so she could at least get something enjoyable out of life and not just be a slave to a corporate job for the insurance until disability. we didnt ask for help, we didnt ask for handouts... and the progress we have made is simply amazing.... and ultimately pointless.</p><p>by 30 we were making 6 figures a year and living in a 350sq/ft apt. we save/invest over 50\% of our income and we are on track to financial independence at 45. this includes the $10k/y it would (currently) cost us for private coverage. wait, let me put that in a better perspective, at 45 years old our ROIs will pass the amount required to continue living as though we were still working, maintaining our nest egg and continuing to pay the insurance premiums, property taxes, bills, etc. but again... this is pointless - at this rate she will hit her lifetime maximum coverage before we cross the finish line. and when that happens everything we have saved and work for will dry up in a few years. all that work and we are likely to end up broke and on medicaid. the system has failed.</p><p>we need the health care reform. we need people to remove this bullshit notion that human life has a price tag. and we have no hope that any of this will happen in a country full of people that think 'that will never happen to me'. well... you had better hope it doesnt, because i doubt anyone else reading this has dedicated their lives to this game like we have. we put more money a year into this than the average american salary and we cant win. there is no outpacing this industry. not unless you win the lotto. it boggles the mind to see people talk about health care reform in such a way that suggests they are magically immune to getting sick, or that everyone that wants universal health care is a bum. i guess those people must make 7 figures a year. then i can see how we are bums with our sad little 6 figures. if we cant win this race... what makes them think they can?</p><p>--signed AC because the only karma this needs is the karma from voting FOR healthcare reform</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>at the age of 26 my wife was at a doctor trying to figure out why her hearing was failing in her right ear .
that was the first time we heard about http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurofibromatosis \ _type \ _II and the last time our lives didnt revolve around it .
by 28 she had her first brain surgery .
by 30 she had another .
this is all sad , but not intended for sympathy... the rest of this however should scare the piss out of you.we realized that her quality of life would degrade and there would be a point where we would be on 'the down hill fight' .
knowing that , we decided to change our lives drastically .
we already had great insurance but we will lose it forever if our coverage drops for even a single day .
we refocused our lives to 'retire ' early so she could at least get something enjoyable out of life and not just be a slave to a corporate job for the insurance until disability .
we didnt ask for help , we didnt ask for handouts... and the progress we have made is simply amazing.... and ultimately pointless.by 30 we were making 6 figures a year and living in a 350sq/ft apt .
we save/invest over 50 \ % of our income and we are on track to financial independence at 45. this includes the $ 10k/y it would ( currently ) cost us for private coverage .
wait , let me put that in a better perspective , at 45 years old our ROIs will pass the amount required to continue living as though we were still working , maintaining our nest egg and continuing to pay the insurance premiums , property taxes , bills , etc .
but again... this is pointless - at this rate she will hit her lifetime maximum coverage before we cross the finish line .
and when that happens everything we have saved and work for will dry up in a few years .
all that work and we are likely to end up broke and on medicaid .
the system has failed.we need the health care reform .
we need people to remove this bullshit notion that human life has a price tag .
and we have no hope that any of this will happen in a country full of people that think 'that will never happen to me' .
well... you had better hope it doesnt , because i doubt anyone else reading this has dedicated their lives to this game like we have .
we put more money a year into this than the average american salary and we cant win .
there is no outpacing this industry .
not unless you win the lotto .
it boggles the mind to see people talk about health care reform in such a way that suggests they are magically immune to getting sick , or that everyone that wants universal health care is a bum .
i guess those people must make 7 figures a year .
then i can see how we are bums with our sad little 6 figures .
if we cant win this race... what makes them think they can ? --signed AC because the only karma this needs is the karma from voting FOR healthcare reform</tokentext>
<sentencetext>at the age of 26 my wife was at a doctor trying to figure out why her hearing was failing in her right ear.
that was the first time we heard about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurofibromatosis\_type\_II and the last time our lives didnt revolve around it.
by 28 she had her first brain surgery.
by 30 she had another.
this is all sad, but not intended for sympathy... the rest of this however should scare the piss out of you.we realized that her quality of life would degrade and there would be a point where we would be on 'the down hill fight'.
knowing that, we decided to change our lives drastically.
we already had great insurance but we will lose it forever if our coverage drops for even a single day.
we refocused our lives to 'retire' early so she could at least get something enjoyable out of life and not just be a slave to a corporate job for the insurance until disability.
we didnt ask for help, we didnt ask for handouts... and the progress we have made is simply amazing.... and ultimately pointless.by 30 we were making 6 figures a year and living in a 350sq/ft apt.
we save/invest over 50\% of our income and we are on track to financial independence at 45. this includes the $10k/y it would (currently) cost us for private coverage.
wait, let me put that in a better perspective, at 45 years old our ROIs will pass the amount required to continue living as though we were still working, maintaining our nest egg and continuing to pay the insurance premiums, property taxes, bills, etc.
but again... this is pointless - at this rate she will hit her lifetime maximum coverage before we cross the finish line.
and when that happens everything we have saved and work for will dry up in a few years.
all that work and we are likely to end up broke and on medicaid.
the system has failed.we need the health care reform.
we need people to remove this bullshit notion that human life has a price tag.
and we have no hope that any of this will happen in a country full of people that think 'that will never happen to me'.
well... you had better hope it doesnt, because i doubt anyone else reading this has dedicated their lives to this game like we have.
we put more money a year into this than the average american salary and we cant win.
there is no outpacing this industry.
not unless you win the lotto.
it boggles the mind to see people talk about health care reform in such a way that suggests they are magically immune to getting sick, or that everyone that wants universal health care is a bum.
i guess those people must make 7 figures a year.
then i can see how we are bums with our sad little 6 figures.
if we cant win this race... what makes them think they can?--signed AC because the only karma this needs is the karma from voting FOR healthcare reform</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388156</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe she can answer in hindsight</title>
	<author>kramulous</author>
	<datestamp>1267963320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I read somewhere just recently that apparently Americans have the worst survival rate with cancer because they believe god will help them more than what science will.  That has a big effect on outcome.</p><p>Listen to your doctor.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I read somewhere just recently that apparently Americans have the worst survival rate with cancer because they believe god will help them more than what science will .
That has a big effect on outcome.Listen to your doctor .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I read somewhere just recently that apparently Americans have the worst survival rate with cancer because they believe god will help them more than what science will.
That has a big effect on outcome.Listen to your doctor.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388026</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389046</id>
	<title>Re:Just $200 more...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267972920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They can give me the $200, if they want...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They can give me the $ 200 , if they want.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They can give me the $200, if they want...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388056</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388592</id>
	<title>The value of a life</title>
	<author>ebonum</author>
	<datestamp>1267969080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Some of the comments refer to a life as "invaluable".  Money has no meaning, etc.</p><p>People in Africa get AIDS, and we all sit at home watch them die.  We do nothing.  The people who post these types of comments could send all their money to save as many people as possible, but they don't.  The US government has the resources to save these people, but the US government withholds the money and watches them die.</p><p>The reality is that resources are finite. A society could devote all its resources to health care and do everything possible for everyone, but where does this leave the rest of us?</p><p>I could not buy anything for the next 20 years and save up an extra 500K USD ( this is above and beyond normal retirement saving ).  This way, when I eventually get to my last year or two, I will have the money on hand to handle my own "spare no expense" end of life care.  What impact does this have on the economy and my quality of life when I'm healthy?  One needs to multiply this number by 300M people to get the scope of the entire US health care problem.  These are real problems with a huge impact on both the living and the dying.</p><p>Finally, Europe is no panacea.  For instance, England deems many new cancer drugs as too expensive.  Cancer survival rates suffer due to England's cost cutting.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Some of the comments refer to a life as " invaluable " .
Money has no meaning , etc.People in Africa get AIDS , and we all sit at home watch them die .
We do nothing .
The people who post these types of comments could send all their money to save as many people as possible , but they do n't .
The US government has the resources to save these people , but the US government withholds the money and watches them die.The reality is that resources are finite .
A society could devote all its resources to health care and do everything possible for everyone , but where does this leave the rest of us ? I could not buy anything for the next 20 years and save up an extra 500K USD ( this is above and beyond normal retirement saving ) .
This way , when I eventually get to my last year or two , I will have the money on hand to handle my own " spare no expense " end of life care .
What impact does this have on the economy and my quality of life when I 'm healthy ?
One needs to multiply this number by 300M people to get the scope of the entire US health care problem .
These are real problems with a huge impact on both the living and the dying.Finally , Europe is no panacea .
For instance , England deems many new cancer drugs as too expensive .
Cancer survival rates suffer due to England 's cost cutting .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Some of the comments refer to a life as "invaluable".
Money has no meaning, etc.People in Africa get AIDS, and we all sit at home watch them die.
We do nothing.
The people who post these types of comments could send all their money to save as many people as possible, but they don't.
The US government has the resources to save these people, but the US government withholds the money and watches them die.The reality is that resources are finite.
A society could devote all its resources to health care and do everything possible for everyone, but where does this leave the rest of us?I could not buy anything for the next 20 years and save up an extra 500K USD ( this is above and beyond normal retirement saving ).
This way, when I eventually get to my last year or two, I will have the money on hand to handle my own "spare no expense" end of life care.
What impact does this have on the economy and my quality of life when I'm healthy?
One needs to multiply this number by 300M people to get the scope of the entire US health care problem.
These are real problems with a huge impact on both the living and the dying.Finally, Europe is no panacea.
For instance, England deems many new cancer drugs as too expensive.
Cancer survival rates suffer due to England's cost cutting.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389824</id>
	<title>Re:Just sick?</title>
	<author>nacturation</author>
	<datestamp>1267977180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>This is like putting a price on one's life. Even asking such a question is disgusting, and shows a complete lack of humanity.</p></div><p>For $1,000,000,000,000 we can extend the life of this 97 year old person who lives in chronic pain by 24 hours.  By your logic, we should do it because it's disgusting and shows a complete lack of humanity to not go ahead with the treatment.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is like putting a price on one 's life .
Even asking such a question is disgusting , and shows a complete lack of humanity.For $ 1,000,000,000,000 we can extend the life of this 97 year old person who lives in chronic pain by 24 hours .
By your logic , we should do it because it 's disgusting and shows a complete lack of humanity to not go ahead with the treatment .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is like putting a price on one's life.
Even asking such a question is disgusting, and shows a complete lack of humanity.For $1,000,000,000,000 we can extend the life of this 97 year old person who lives in chronic pain by 24 hours.
By your logic, we should do it because it's disgusting and shows a complete lack of humanity to not go ahead with the treatment.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388198</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31404456</id>
	<title>Re:Billing and Payments</title>
	<author>Sinical</author>
	<datestamp>1268038860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>It led me to wonder whom, actually, pays the full amount? Then it struck me. The uninsured do.</p></div></blockquote><p>I don't know that that's true.  I worked with someone who told me that, when she was uninsured, she could get huge discounts by paying cash at the time of the appointment: doctors were very happy not to have to go through an insurance company, etc. etc.  I think the discounts she quoted were 50-60\%.  So presumably doctors inflate everything knowing they're going to discount.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It led me to wonder whom , actually , pays the full amount ?
Then it struck me .
The uninsured do.I do n't know that that 's true .
I worked with someone who told me that , when she was uninsured , she could get huge discounts by paying cash at the time of the appointment : doctors were very happy not to have to go through an insurance company , etc .
etc. I think the discounts she quoted were 50-60 \ % .
So presumably doctors inflate everything knowing they 're going to discount .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It led me to wonder whom, actually, pays the full amount?
Then it struck me.
The uninsured do.I don't know that that's true.
I worked with someone who told me that, when she was uninsured, she could get huge discounts by paying cash at the time of the appointment: doctors were very happy not to have to go through an insurance company, etc.
etc.  I think the discounts she quoted were 50-60\%.
So presumably doctors inflate everything knowing they're going to discount.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388448</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31391316</id>
	<title>Re:Selfish?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267985760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When my life is at stake, money is no concern to me.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When my life is at stake , money is no concern to me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When my life is at stake, money is no concern to me.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388216</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390846</id>
	<title>Re:Easy</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267983300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What happens when the patient can't decide any longer?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What happens when the patient ca n't decide any longer ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What happens when the patient can't decide any longer?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388090</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388248</id>
	<title>You're Sick!</title>
	<author>Putr</author>
	<datestamp>1267964700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>How twisted have you Americans become that you even ask yourselfe this question! When a mans(or womans) life is at stake, money has no value! That's why we have Universal helth care, so that you dont have to care! (I'm pissed but I'm going to stop now.)</htmltext>
<tokenext>How twisted have you Americans become that you even ask yourselfe this question !
When a mans ( or womans ) life is at stake , money has no value !
That 's why we have Universal helth care , so that you dont have to care !
( I 'm pissed but I 'm going to stop now .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How twisted have you Americans become that you even ask yourselfe this question!
When a mans(or womans) life is at stake, money has no value!
That's why we have Universal helth care, so that you dont have to care!
(I'm pissed but I'm going to stop now.
)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31408230</id>
	<title>Selfless!</title>
	<author>psithurism</author>
	<datestamp>1268055420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was actually thinking: Wow! Hundreds of millions pumped into a really hard medical case, I bet doctors learned a whole lot! I bet they'll be better with patients in the future after this. The hospital probably has tons of equipment it couldn't previously afford.</p><p>Really, I think the more rich dying people are willing spend keeping themselves alive, the more we will later be able to keep people alive and happy with less money.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was actually thinking : Wow !
Hundreds of millions pumped into a really hard medical case , I bet doctors learned a whole lot !
I bet they 'll be better with patients in the future after this .
The hospital probably has tons of equipment it could n't previously afford.Really , I think the more rich dying people are willing spend keeping themselves alive , the more we will later be able to keep people alive and happy with less money .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was actually thinking: Wow!
Hundreds of millions pumped into a really hard medical case, I bet doctors learned a whole lot!
I bet they'll be better with patients in the future after this.
The hospital probably has tons of equipment it couldn't previously afford.Really, I think the more rich dying people are willing spend keeping themselves alive, the more we will later be able to keep people alive and happy with less money.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388216</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390432</id>
	<title>Re:Tis a sad day</title>
	<author>Hurricane78</author>
	<datestamp>1267981020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You are falling for the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken\_window\_fallacy" title="wikipedia.org">broken window fallacy</a> [wikipedia.org].<br>Every dollar that you throw at that single human life (which is not special), is then missing for other human life.</p><p>So if you, by your suggestion, throw infinite dollars at that one life, then what you think happens to the other life?<br>Hunger, disease and death.</p><p>It&rsquo;s not the dollar that is worth more than human life. The dollar is only a piece of paper. It&rsquo;s the <em>other</em> human life that we value more <em>at some point</em>, that the dollar can buy.</p><p>Of course you are free to choose whichever life you value the most, and give it all for the person who is about to die, because that person gave you so much in the past. Nothing wrong about that.<br>But is there really no other life that at some point could use the money in a better way to survive, than that person?</p><p>If I&rsquo;m about to die, I rather have my daughter or son improve their own chance of survival, than mine.<br>After all one could say that if my strain survives, then so do I. I&rsquo;m not dying. Most of me lives on right there.<br>Children are humanity&rsquo;s way of immortality.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You are falling for the broken window fallacy [ wikipedia.org ] .Every dollar that you throw at that single human life ( which is not special ) , is then missing for other human life.So if you , by your suggestion , throw infinite dollars at that one life , then what you think happens to the other life ? Hunger , disease and death.It    s not the dollar that is worth more than human life .
The dollar is only a piece of paper .
It    s the other human life that we value more at some point , that the dollar can buy.Of course you are free to choose whichever life you value the most , and give it all for the person who is about to die , because that person gave you so much in the past .
Nothing wrong about that.But is there really no other life that at some point could use the money in a better way to survive , than that person ? If I    m about to die , I rather have my daughter or son improve their own chance of survival , than mine.After all one could say that if my strain survives , then so do I. I    m not dying .
Most of me lives on right there.Children are humanity    s way of immortality .
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are falling for the broken window fallacy [wikipedia.org].Every dollar that you throw at that single human life (which is not special), is then missing for other human life.So if you, by your suggestion, throw infinite dollars at that one life, then what you think happens to the other life?Hunger, disease and death.It’s not the dollar that is worth more than human life.
The dollar is only a piece of paper.
It’s the other human life that we value more at some point, that the dollar can buy.Of course you are free to choose whichever life you value the most, and give it all for the person who is about to die, because that person gave you so much in the past.
Nothing wrong about that.But is there really no other life that at some point could use the money in a better way to survive, than that person?If I’m about to die, I rather have my daughter or son improve their own chance of survival, than mine.After all one could say that if my strain survives, then so do I. I’m not dying.
Most of me lives on right there.Children are humanity’s way of immortality.
:)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388150</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390016</id>
	<title>Re:So how much was for actual medical care?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267978500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Under the current system those who can't afford emergency care don't pay for it.  The hospital has to make its money somehow.  Hence the exorbitant insurance premiums for the insured and the ridiculous fees for the uninsured.  In the end, it very much can be traced back to the insurance model we have here in the US.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Under the current system those who ca n't afford emergency care do n't pay for it .
The hospital has to make its money somehow .
Hence the exorbitant insurance premiums for the insured and the ridiculous fees for the uninsured .
In the end , it very much can be traced back to the insurance model we have here in the US .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Under the current system those who can't afford emergency care don't pay for it.
The hospital has to make its money somehow.
Hence the exorbitant insurance premiums for the insured and the ridiculous fees for the uninsured.
In the end, it very much can be traced back to the insurance model we have here in the US.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388510</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31393602</id>
	<title>Medical Costs 40\% more in USA</title>
	<author>Dan667</author>
	<datestamp>1267956120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>When comparing medical costs in the US to other developed countries, they are about 40\% more.  So if the care had been in another country it could have cost $400k instead of $618k.  Something else that should be discussed, examined.</htmltext>
<tokenext>When comparing medical costs in the US to other developed countries , they are about 40 \ % more .
So if the care had been in another country it could have cost $ 400k instead of $ 618k .
Something else that should be discussed , examined .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When comparing medical costs in the US to other developed countries, they are about 40\% more.
So if the care had been in another country it could have cost $400k instead of $618k.
Something else that should be discussed, examined.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31393444</id>
	<title>Lessons of a $950,000 death...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267955040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Lessons learned by my mother after father diagnosed with Stage 4 metastasized colon cancer, later to spread to liver...her insurance paid about 950,000 along the way.  This, after right at the start, the doctor gave him at best a 10-15\% chance for 5-year survival.</p><p>$950,000 goes a long way.  It gave him about three years.  Three years bought for almost a million dollars.</p><p>Year 1, he stopped working.  She took him to every chemo and experimental treatment, cried every day at the thought of losing him.</p><p>Year 2, he started dreaming.  Spent money on a couple of trips, since he met someone else.  Started sending all their [meager] savings to the other woman, hoping to return to his home country and live out his last years.</p><p>Year 3, he filed for divorce.   Became truly psychiatric, started accusing mother of being the one of cheating on him, all the while telling everyone he met (never mind family, telling the mailman, the neighbors, the police who would come visit when called regularly about his illness and craziness) about his girlfriend.  Conversations with him were difficult, to put it tactfully.  At one point he said to me, "what if I told you [the other woman] was really your sister?"  Quite an amazing experience, to see mental illness take over.</p><p>End of year 3, he collapsed alone at home.  Mother found him while checking in on him occasionally (they had separated at this point) and called ambulance.  He died in hospital a day later, refusing to speak a word to her, but did manage to tell the ambulance medics on the way about his girlfriend.</p><p>I called the hospital when I heard he collapsed, and found out he had just died, had to call and tell her (I live 3,000 miles away).  Her exact response: "God forgive him.  Life goes on."  She is retiring shortly, house unpaid (he refinanced, and spent it) and with no savings.  Her insurer paid a million dollars to a lost cause, and meanwhile she was left with nothing.</p><p>Still, the money went a long way.  It lets us have no regrets, and she had no more tears.  Others should be so lucky.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Lessons learned by my mother after father diagnosed with Stage 4 metastasized colon cancer , later to spread to liver...her insurance paid about 950,000 along the way .
This , after right at the start , the doctor gave him at best a 10-15 \ % chance for 5-year survival. $ 950,000 goes a long way .
It gave him about three years .
Three years bought for almost a million dollars.Year 1 , he stopped working .
She took him to every chemo and experimental treatment , cried every day at the thought of losing him.Year 2 , he started dreaming .
Spent money on a couple of trips , since he met someone else .
Started sending all their [ meager ] savings to the other woman , hoping to return to his home country and live out his last years.Year 3 , he filed for divorce .
Became truly psychiatric , started accusing mother of being the one of cheating on him , all the while telling everyone he met ( never mind family , telling the mailman , the neighbors , the police who would come visit when called regularly about his illness and craziness ) about his girlfriend .
Conversations with him were difficult , to put it tactfully .
At one point he said to me , " what if I told you [ the other woman ] was really your sister ?
" Quite an amazing experience , to see mental illness take over.End of year 3 , he collapsed alone at home .
Mother found him while checking in on him occasionally ( they had separated at this point ) and called ambulance .
He died in hospital a day later , refusing to speak a word to her , but did manage to tell the ambulance medics on the way about his girlfriend.I called the hospital when I heard he collapsed , and found out he had just died , had to call and tell her ( I live 3,000 miles away ) .
Her exact response : " God forgive him .
Life goes on .
" She is retiring shortly , house unpaid ( he refinanced , and spent it ) and with no savings .
Her insurer paid a million dollars to a lost cause , and meanwhile she was left with nothing.Still , the money went a long way .
It lets us have no regrets , and she had no more tears .
Others should be so lucky .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Lessons learned by my mother after father diagnosed with Stage 4 metastasized colon cancer, later to spread to liver...her insurance paid about 950,000 along the way.
This, after right at the start, the doctor gave him at best a 10-15\% chance for 5-year survival.$950,000 goes a long way.
It gave him about three years.
Three years bought for almost a million dollars.Year 1, he stopped working.
She took him to every chemo and experimental treatment, cried every day at the thought of losing him.Year 2, he started dreaming.
Spent money on a couple of trips, since he met someone else.
Started sending all their [meager] savings to the other woman, hoping to return to his home country and live out his last years.Year 3, he filed for divorce.
Became truly psychiatric, started accusing mother of being the one of cheating on him, all the while telling everyone he met (never mind family, telling the mailman, the neighbors, the police who would come visit when called regularly about his illness and craziness) about his girlfriend.
Conversations with him were difficult, to put it tactfully.
At one point he said to me, "what if I told you [the other woman] was really your sister?
"  Quite an amazing experience, to see mental illness take over.End of year 3, he collapsed alone at home.
Mother found him while checking in on him occasionally (they had separated at this point) and called ambulance.
He died in hospital a day later, refusing to speak a word to her, but did manage to tell the ambulance medics on the way about his girlfriend.I called the hospital when I heard he collapsed, and found out he had just died, had to call and tell her (I live 3,000 miles away).
Her exact response: "God forgive him.
Life goes on.
"  She is retiring shortly, house unpaid (he refinanced, and spent it) and with no savings.
Her insurer paid a million dollars to a lost cause, and meanwhile she was left with nothing.Still, the money went a long way.
It lets us have no regrets, and she had no more tears.
Others should be so lucky.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31391018</id>
	<title>Re:Billing and Payments</title>
	<author>locallyunscene</author>
	<datestamp>1267984260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>And if the uninsured can't than either we all do(gov't subsidies) or no one does and the hospital goes out of business.</htmltext>
<tokenext>And if the uninsured ca n't than either we all do ( gov't subsidies ) or no one does and the hospital goes out of business .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And if the uninsured can't than either we all do(gov't subsidies) or no one does and the hospital goes out of business.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388448</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31394618</id>
	<title>Re:I think that it's pretty much always worth it</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267962240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&ldquo;Incidentally, I believe that paying for the "vaccine for nearly a quarter million children in developing countries" is on the long term a rather pointless thing.&rdquo;</p><p>How? It works. We vaccinate, eradicate the disease, nobody has it any more. There is no more smallpox, and, unless either Russian or the US decides to try to use it as a weapon, there never will be again.</p><p>Very often for an individual poorer country, eradication is a low priority, they can't justify spending extra money to have 1000 less sick people next year, when they could spend that money on building a road or a school or something. So when a disease seems "under control" (which often means it is limited to poorer or rural districts) they abandon efforts to eradicate it.</p><p>But the international community is able to take a longer view - to drive to true zero and eradication of the disease, not hide it in slums and mountainous regions. This costs a lot of money, but you only have to spend that money once. When the last guinea worm dies, there won't be any more of them. When the polio virus is eradicated no more children will be crippled by it.</p><p>Before scaremongering idiots wrecked it, the vaccination programs in North America and Europe were on the verge of eliminating measles from those regions. The cost saving from (a) no children in those countries developing this illness and (b) not needing to vaccinate people unless they went to another region would have been enormous and ongoing. But no, someone had to make up a scare story and fuck it up...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>   Incidentally , I believe that paying for the " vaccine for nearly a quarter million children in developing countries " is on the long term a rather pointless thing.    How ?
It works .
We vaccinate , eradicate the disease , nobody has it any more .
There is no more smallpox , and , unless either Russian or the US decides to try to use it as a weapon , there never will be again.Very often for an individual poorer country , eradication is a low priority , they ca n't justify spending extra money to have 1000 less sick people next year , when they could spend that money on building a road or a school or something .
So when a disease seems " under control " ( which often means it is limited to poorer or rural districts ) they abandon efforts to eradicate it.But the international community is able to take a longer view - to drive to true zero and eradication of the disease , not hide it in slums and mountainous regions .
This costs a lot of money , but you only have to spend that money once .
When the last guinea worm dies , there wo n't be any more of them .
When the polio virus is eradicated no more children will be crippled by it.Before scaremongering idiots wrecked it , the vaccination programs in North America and Europe were on the verge of eliminating measles from those regions .
The cost saving from ( a ) no children in those countries developing this illness and ( b ) not needing to vaccinate people unless they went to another region would have been enormous and ongoing .
But no , someone had to make up a scare story and fuck it up.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>“Incidentally, I believe that paying for the "vaccine for nearly a quarter million children in developing countries" is on the long term a rather pointless thing.”How?
It works.
We vaccinate, eradicate the disease, nobody has it any more.
There is no more smallpox, and, unless either Russian or the US decides to try to use it as a weapon, there never will be again.Very often for an individual poorer country, eradication is a low priority, they can't justify spending extra money to have 1000 less sick people next year, when they could spend that money on building a road or a school or something.
So when a disease seems "under control" (which often means it is limited to poorer or rural districts) they abandon efforts to eradicate it.But the international community is able to take a longer view - to drive to true zero and eradication of the disease, not hide it in slums and mountainous regions.
This costs a lot of money, but you only have to spend that money once.
When the last guinea worm dies, there won't be any more of them.
When the polio virus is eradicated no more children will be crippled by it.Before scaremongering idiots wrecked it, the vaccination programs in North America and Europe were on the verge of eliminating measles from those regions.
The cost saving from (a) no children in those countries developing this illness and (b) not needing to vaccinate people unless they went to another region would have been enormous and ongoing.
But no, someone had to make up a scare story and fuck it up...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388428</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388772</id>
	<title>Euthanasia</title>
	<author>MrKaos</author>
	<datestamp>1267971480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Some people who want to live are executed whilst some people who want to die are sentenced to suffering.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Some people who want to live are executed whilst some people who want to die are sentenced to suffering .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Some people who want to live are executed whilst some people who want to die are sentenced to suffering.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31392410</id>
	<title>This is wrong</title>
	<author>TRRosen</author>
	<datestamp>1267991460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sorry but my Lord and Savior Sarah Palin has determined that talking about end of life health care options is a "death panel" and is evil so you should all be ashamed.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sorry but my Lord and Savior Sarah Palin has determined that talking about end of life health care options is a " death panel " and is evil so you should all be ashamed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sorry but my Lord and Savior Sarah Palin has determined that talking about end of life health care options is a "death panel" and is evil so you should all be ashamed.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388362</id>
	<title>The cost of Healthcare</title>
	<author>Guru Jim</author>
	<datestamp>1267966380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I worked in ICU for a while and the statistic that gets through around there is that often 75\% of a person entire healthcare bill is spent on their last stay in ICU.  Dealing with palliative care is a little different, but based on my experience with death and dying, it is up to the patient.  When they think it is time to go.  A lot of the therapies are pretty invasive/painful/make you feel really bad, so a lot of it comes down to a kind of risk/reward.

You also get the healthcare system you pay for.  In from Australia, and healthcare is a lot cheaper here than in the US, but the US has a lot more aggressive interventions that save more lives.

If you want to cut the cost of healthcare, <a href="http://www.healthbeatblog.org/2007/12/pilots-use-chec.html" title="healthbeatblog.org" rel="nofollow"> sure doctors wash their hands!</a> [healthbeatblog.org]</htmltext>
<tokenext>I worked in ICU for a while and the statistic that gets through around there is that often 75 \ % of a person entire healthcare bill is spent on their last stay in ICU .
Dealing with palliative care is a little different , but based on my experience with death and dying , it is up to the patient .
When they think it is time to go .
A lot of the therapies are pretty invasive/painful/make you feel really bad , so a lot of it comes down to a kind of risk/reward .
You also get the healthcare system you pay for .
In from Australia , and healthcare is a lot cheaper here than in the US , but the US has a lot more aggressive interventions that save more lives .
If you want to cut the cost of healthcare , sure doctors wash their hands !
[ healthbeatblog.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I worked in ICU for a while and the statistic that gets through around there is that often 75\% of a person entire healthcare bill is spent on their last stay in ICU.
Dealing with palliative care is a little different, but based on my experience with death and dying, it is up to the patient.
When they think it is time to go.
A lot of the therapies are pretty invasive/painful/make you feel really bad, so a lot of it comes down to a kind of risk/reward.
You also get the healthcare system you pay for.
In from Australia, and healthcare is a lot cheaper here than in the US, but the US has a lot more aggressive interventions that save more lives.
If you want to cut the cost of healthcare,  sure doctors wash their hands!
[healthbeatblog.org]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389540</id>
	<title>Re:So how much was for actual medical care?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267975500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A question I've long had - is insurance part of the problem for those costs - or more specifically, are HMOs the problem?</p><p>Are those costs inflated, since the  KNOWS they will have to discount their rates, and at varying discounts, for various insurance companies.  So, they "artificially" inflate their rates, so when they discount it, they get more what they were actually expecting?  In other words, if I know I will have to discount my rate 40\%, and I normally charge $60 for a certain procedure, I raise my rate for doing that procedure to $100, so when I give the discount the insurance is demanding, I still get my $60 (or close to it).</p><p>If you don't have insurance, you get hit with ridiculous rates, and even if you do, you see ridiculous rates, along with the discount.  I've tried to find some more solid info, but it seems to me that rates really started major increases year over year - right after HMOs became "legalized" in the US.  HMOs were the ones who really started the major "cost-cutting/discounts" with healthcare providers in this country.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A question I 've long had - is insurance part of the problem for those costs - or more specifically , are HMOs the problem ? Are those costs inflated , since the KNOWS they will have to discount their rates , and at varying discounts , for various insurance companies .
So , they " artificially " inflate their rates , so when they discount it , they get more what they were actually expecting ?
In other words , if I know I will have to discount my rate 40 \ % , and I normally charge $ 60 for a certain procedure , I raise my rate for doing that procedure to $ 100 , so when I give the discount the insurance is demanding , I still get my $ 60 ( or close to it ) .If you do n't have insurance , you get hit with ridiculous rates , and even if you do , you see ridiculous rates , along with the discount .
I 've tried to find some more solid info , but it seems to me that rates really started major increases year over year - right after HMOs became " legalized " in the US .
HMOs were the ones who really started the major " cost-cutting/discounts " with healthcare providers in this country .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A question I've long had - is insurance part of the problem for those costs - or more specifically, are HMOs the problem?Are those costs inflated, since the  KNOWS they will have to discount their rates, and at varying discounts, for various insurance companies.
So, they "artificially" inflate their rates, so when they discount it, they get more what they were actually expecting?
In other words, if I know I will have to discount my rate 40\%, and I normally charge $60 for a certain procedure, I raise my rate for doing that procedure to $100, so when I give the discount the insurance is demanding, I still get my $60 (or close to it).If you don't have insurance, you get hit with ridiculous rates, and even if you do, you see ridiculous rates, along with the discount.
I've tried to find some more solid info, but it seems to me that rates really started major increases year over year - right after HMOs became "legalized" in the US.
HMOs were the ones who really started the major "cost-cutting/discounts" with healthcare providers in this country.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388510</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31392272</id>
	<title>Re:What is that for a question?</title>
	<author>kilodelta</author>
	<datestamp>1267990740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>No kidding. When I saw the estimate that 31\% was paperwork the first thing that popped into my head was "single payer".
<br> <br>
Back in 2001 I worked at the state AG's office. It was there that I got a glimpse into the medical billing and insurance systems side. It lead me to the conclusion that not only are the insurance companies being enriched at our expense, the billing companies are making a fair amount of money too.
<br> <br>
Go single payer and you cut out those two layers. Imagine that.</htmltext>
<tokenext>No kidding .
When I saw the estimate that 31 \ % was paperwork the first thing that popped into my head was " single payer " .
Back in 2001 I worked at the state AG 's office .
It was there that I got a glimpse into the medical billing and insurance systems side .
It lead me to the conclusion that not only are the insurance companies being enriched at our expense , the billing companies are making a fair amount of money too .
Go single payer and you cut out those two layers .
Imagine that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No kidding.
When I saw the estimate that 31\% was paperwork the first thing that popped into my head was "single payer".
Back in 2001 I worked at the state AG's office.
It was there that I got a glimpse into the medical billing and insurance systems side.
It lead me to the conclusion that not only are the insurance companies being enriched at our expense, the billing companies are making a fair amount of money too.
Go single payer and you cut out those two layers.
Imagine that.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388064</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31389550</id>
	<title>Alternative Care Options</title>
	<author>mim</author>
	<datestamp>1267975560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Dear Mrs. Bennett, my deepest condolences on your loss. I know that this is more than a day late and a dollar short (no pun intended), and some find this to be quite controversial, but there are alternative options for cancer patients including palliative care when the patients themselves are ready. In states where it is legal patients can seek medical marijuana not only for cancer treatment but for treatment of the pain and debilitating side-effects of chemotherapy and other (extremely costly) synthetic pharmaceutical medications. One site to check out for more information is: <a href="http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group\_ID=3376" title="norml.org" rel="nofollow">http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group\_ID=3376</a> [norml.org]  Living in WI, US, we are currently lobbying to become the 15th state to pass legislation to this effect. Anyone interested in helping further this cause can visit: <a href="http://www.jrmma.org/" title="jrmma.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.jrmma.org/</a> [jrmma.org] or: <a href="http://immly.org/" title="immly.org" rel="nofollow">http://immly.org/</a> [immly.org]</htmltext>
<tokenext>Dear Mrs. Bennett , my deepest condolences on your loss .
I know that this is more than a day late and a dollar short ( no pun intended ) , and some find this to be quite controversial , but there are alternative options for cancer patients including palliative care when the patients themselves are ready .
In states where it is legal patients can seek medical marijuana not only for cancer treatment but for treatment of the pain and debilitating side-effects of chemotherapy and other ( extremely costly ) synthetic pharmaceutical medications .
One site to check out for more information is : http : //norml.org/index.cfm ? Group \ _ID = 3376 [ norml.org ] Living in WI , US , we are currently lobbying to become the 15th state to pass legislation to this effect .
Anyone interested in helping further this cause can visit : http : //www.jrmma.org/ [ jrmma.org ] or : http : //immly.org/ [ immly.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Dear Mrs. Bennett, my deepest condolences on your loss.
I know that this is more than a day late and a dollar short (no pun intended), and some find this to be quite controversial, but there are alternative options for cancer patients including palliative care when the patients themselves are ready.
In states where it is legal patients can seek medical marijuana not only for cancer treatment but for treatment of the pain and debilitating side-effects of chemotherapy and other (extremely costly) synthetic pharmaceutical medications.
One site to check out for more information is: http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group\_ID=3376 [norml.org]  Living in WI, US, we are currently lobbying to become the 15th state to pass legislation to this effect.
Anyone interested in helping further this cause can visit: http://www.jrmma.org/ [jrmma.org] or: http://immly.org/ [immly.org]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31390634</id>
	<title>Re:Tis a sad day</title>
	<author>cervo</author>
	<datestamp>1267982160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You sure are naive.  It is not unusual for agencies to put a dollar value on human life to figure stuff out.  The book "Flying Blind, Fly Safe" <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Blind-Fly-Safe-Schiavo/dp/038079330X" title="amazon.com">http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Blind-Fly-Safe-Schiavo/dp/038079330X</a> [amazon.com] mentions that there is a dollar value on human life in the FAA.  The loss of life and dollar value determines when the FAA steps in and when the economic cost to the industry versus the economic loss of human life is not worth the effort of say forcing some type of safety change/inspection.  I guarantee they are not the only agency that does it.<br> <br>
If you really think people don't put a cost on human life (particularly companies selling products that may hurt people) then you certainly aren't familiar with the greed of men.  I would bet that tobacco companies computed some type of financial model from lawsuits resulting from the deaths/illnesses of consumers and decided that economically rather than trying to find ways to make their products not kill you, it is better to keep selling and fight the lawsuits....
<br> <br>
Oh welcome to earth<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</htmltext>
<tokenext>You sure are naive .
It is not unusual for agencies to put a dollar value on human life to figure stuff out .
The book " Flying Blind , Fly Safe " http : //www.amazon.com/Flying-Blind-Fly-Safe-Schiavo/dp/038079330X [ amazon.com ] mentions that there is a dollar value on human life in the FAA .
The loss of life and dollar value determines when the FAA steps in and when the economic cost to the industry versus the economic loss of human life is not worth the effort of say forcing some type of safety change/inspection .
I guarantee they are not the only agency that does it .
If you really think people do n't put a cost on human life ( particularly companies selling products that may hurt people ) then you certainly are n't familiar with the greed of men .
I would bet that tobacco companies computed some type of financial model from lawsuits resulting from the deaths/illnesses of consumers and decided that economically rather than trying to find ways to make their products not kill you , it is better to keep selling and fight the lawsuits... . Oh welcome to earth : )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You sure are naive.
It is not unusual for agencies to put a dollar value on human life to figure stuff out.
The book "Flying Blind, Fly Safe" http://www.amazon.com/Flying-Blind-Fly-Safe-Schiavo/dp/038079330X [amazon.com] mentions that there is a dollar value on human life in the FAA.
The loss of life and dollar value determines when the FAA steps in and when the economic cost to the industry versus the economic loss of human life is not worth the effort of say forcing some type of safety change/inspection.
I guarantee they are not the only agency that does it.
If you really think people don't put a cost on human life (particularly companies selling products that may hurt people) then you certainly aren't familiar with the greed of men.
I would bet that tobacco companies computed some type of financial model from lawsuits resulting from the deaths/illnesses of consumers and decided that economically rather than trying to find ways to make their products not kill you, it is better to keep selling and fight the lawsuits....
 
Oh welcome to earth :)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388150</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31392368</id>
	<title>Re:Tis a sad day</title>
	<author>greensasquatch</author>
	<datestamp>1267991160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>How about we don't look at it in terms of dollars.  How about we look at it in terms of resources and man power.

$630,000 is about 10 man/years worth of work.  So that's 10 people working for a whole year to save one man (truthfully it's a whole lot more than ten people working less than a year each but lets just break it down real simple).  Now if these 10 people were used in another way in the medical system, how many lives could they have saved?

When you stop looking at as simply dollars and put people and resources behind it you can't just say "save one life at any cost" anymore.  Because the dollar amount and the resources that back it up are not infinite.</htmltext>
<tokenext>How about we do n't look at it in terms of dollars .
How about we look at it in terms of resources and man power .
$ 630,000 is about 10 man/years worth of work .
So that 's 10 people working for a whole year to save one man ( truthfully it 's a whole lot more than ten people working less than a year each but lets just break it down real simple ) .
Now if these 10 people were used in another way in the medical system , how many lives could they have saved ?
When you stop looking at as simply dollars and put people and resources behind it you ca n't just say " save one life at any cost " anymore .
Because the dollar amount and the resources that back it up are not infinite .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about we don't look at it in terms of dollars.
How about we look at it in terms of resources and man power.
$630,000 is about 10 man/years worth of work.
So that's 10 people working for a whole year to save one man (truthfully it's a whole lot more than ten people working less than a year each but lets just break it down real simple).
Now if these 10 people were used in another way in the medical system, how many lives could they have saved?
When you stop looking at as simply dollars and put people and resources behind it you can't just say "save one life at any cost" anymore.
Because the dollar amount and the resources that back it up are not infinite.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_07_0311208.31388150</parent>
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