<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_03_06_1712238</id>
	<title>Improving Education Through Better Teachers</title>
	<author>Soulskill</author>
	<datestamp>1267900380000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>theodp writes <i>"The teaching profession gets schooled in cover stories from the big pubs this weekend, as Newsweek makes the case for <a href="http://www.newsweek.com/id/234590">Why We Must Fire Bad Teachers</a>, and the NY Times offers the more hopeful <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/magazine/07Teachers-t.html?ref=magazine">Building a Better Teacher</a>. For the past half-century, professional educators believed that if they could only find the right pedagogy, the right method of instruction, all would be well. They tried New Math, open classrooms, Whole Language &mdash; but nothing seemed to achieve significant or lasting improvements. But what they ignored was the elephant in the room &mdash; if the teacher sucks, the students suck. Or, as the Times more eloquently puts it: '<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William\_Sanders\_(statistician)">William Sanders</a>, a statistician studying Tennessee teachers with a colleague, found that a student with a weak teacher for three straight years would score, on average, 50 percentile points behind a similar student with a strong teacher for those years. Teachers working in the same building, teaching the same grade, produced very different outcomes. And the gaps were huge.' But what makes a good teacher? When Bill Gates announced his foundation was <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/19/AR2009111902211.html">investing $335 million in a project to improve teaching quality</a>, he added a rueful caveat. 'Unfortunately, it seems the field doesn't have a clear view of what characterizes good teaching,' Gates said. 'I'm personally very curious.'"</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>theodp writes " The teaching profession gets schooled in cover stories from the big pubs this weekend , as Newsweek makes the case for Why We Must Fire Bad Teachers , and the NY Times offers the more hopeful Building a Better Teacher .
For the past half-century , professional educators believed that if they could only find the right pedagogy , the right method of instruction , all would be well .
They tried New Math , open classrooms , Whole Language    but nothing seemed to achieve significant or lasting improvements .
But what they ignored was the elephant in the room    if the teacher sucks , the students suck .
Or , as the Times more eloquently puts it : 'William Sanders , a statistician studying Tennessee teachers with a colleague , found that a student with a weak teacher for three straight years would score , on average , 50 percentile points behind a similar student with a strong teacher for those years .
Teachers working in the same building , teaching the same grade , produced very different outcomes .
And the gaps were huge .
' But what makes a good teacher ?
When Bill Gates announced his foundation was investing $ 335 million in a project to improve teaching quality , he added a rueful caveat .
'Unfortunately , it seems the field does n't have a clear view of what characterizes good teaching, ' Gates said .
'I 'm personally very curious .
' "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>theodp writes "The teaching profession gets schooled in cover stories from the big pubs this weekend, as Newsweek makes the case for Why We Must Fire Bad Teachers, and the NY Times offers the more hopeful Building a Better Teacher.
For the past half-century, professional educators believed that if they could only find the right pedagogy, the right method of instruction, all would be well.
They tried New Math, open classrooms, Whole Language — but nothing seemed to achieve significant or lasting improvements.
But what they ignored was the elephant in the room — if the teacher sucks, the students suck.
Or, as the Times more eloquently puts it: 'William Sanders, a statistician studying Tennessee teachers with a colleague, found that a student with a weak teacher for three straight years would score, on average, 50 percentile points behind a similar student with a strong teacher for those years.
Teachers working in the same building, teaching the same grade, produced very different outcomes.
And the gaps were huge.
' But what makes a good teacher?
When Bill Gates announced his foundation was investing $335 million in a project to improve teaching quality, he added a rueful caveat.
'Unfortunately, it seems the field doesn't have a clear view of what characterizes good teaching,' Gates said.
'I'm personally very curious.
'"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31393222</id>
	<title>On teacher salaries -</title>
	<author>Geminii</author>
	<datestamp>1267953600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Both my folks were lifelong senior teachers (now retired). Quite a few years ago, when my IT career had consisted of "a short while doing tech support" and nothing else, I was offered a teaching job at a private company which did brand-name IT certification.
</p><p>
My <i>starting</i> salary, had I taken the job, would have been thirty percent more than my parents' <i>combined</i> salaries - and they'd been in teaching for over 25 years apiece.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Both my folks were lifelong senior teachers ( now retired ) .
Quite a few years ago , when my IT career had consisted of " a short while doing tech support " and nothing else , I was offered a teaching job at a private company which did brand-name IT certification .
My starting salary , had I taken the job , would have been thirty percent more than my parents ' combined salaries - and they 'd been in teaching for over 25 years apiece .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Both my folks were lifelong senior teachers (now retired).
Quite a few years ago, when my IT career had consisted of "a short while doing tech support" and nothing else, I was offered a teaching job at a private company which did brand-name IT certification.
My starting salary, had I taken the job, would have been thirty percent more than my parents' combined salaries - and they'd been in teaching for over 25 years apiece.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31387924</id>
	<title>Re:Been clear for some time</title>
	<author>lkeagle</author>
	<datestamp>1267959480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've never in my life seen an actual study that concludes this.  Every study I have read indicates that classroom size, family income, and poverty are by far the biggest factors in how well a child can be educated.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've never in my life seen an actual study that concludes this .
Every study I have read indicates that classroom size , family income , and poverty are by far the biggest factors in how well a child can be educated .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've never in my life seen an actual study that concludes this.
Every study I have read indicates that classroom size, family income, and poverty are by far the biggest factors in how well a child can be educated.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382668</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31384272</id>
	<title>Re:Prental Involment?</title>
	<author>ascari</author>
	<datestamp>1267876260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You mean things like invol your prents to help with your speling?</htmltext>
<tokenext>You mean things like invol your prents to help with your speling ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You mean things like invol your prents to help with your speling?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382426</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382528</id>
	<title>Re:just pay them more</title>
	<author>manekineko2</author>
	<datestamp>1267907100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sounds like this is not just a low level janitor like you say.</p><p>He's writing checks to employees.</p><p>Incidentally, NY public school teachers are pretty well compensated, among the top in the nation, with tenure after only a few years and pensions.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sounds like this is not just a low level janitor like you say.He 's writing checks to employees.Incidentally , NY public school teachers are pretty well compensated , among the top in the nation , with tenure after only a few years and pensions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sounds like this is not just a low level janitor like you say.He's writing checks to employees.Incidentally, NY public school teachers are pretty well compensated, among the top in the nation, with tenure after only a few years and pensions.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382104</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31383846</id>
	<title>Missing A big  variable</title>
	<author>lsmo</author>
	<datestamp>1267872960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Once again we want to legislate before using common sense.  The problem is with the parents not being involved enough.  The teachers can only do so much.  If parents forced their children to learn while at home instead of watching the idiot box all day things would change.  So many of our problems in the country all start with the parents.

Responsibility and accountability.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Once again we want to legislate before using common sense .
The problem is with the parents not being involved enough .
The teachers can only do so much .
If parents forced their children to learn while at home instead of watching the idiot box all day things would change .
So many of our problems in the country all start with the parents .
Responsibility and accountability .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Once again we want to legislate before using common sense.
The problem is with the parents not being involved enough.
The teachers can only do so much.
If parents forced their children to learn while at home instead of watching the idiot box all day things would change.
So many of our problems in the country all start with the parents.
Responsibility and accountability.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382104</id>
	<title>just pay them more</title>
	<author>circletimessquare</author>
	<datestamp>1267904580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>i was kind of disgusted by a recent story i read in the new york daily news</p><p>it was a story of a public school janitor who bilked his school's petty cash fund for janitorial services to the tune of $30K</p><p>to, among other frivolties, send his kid to private school (irony meter off the charts)</p><p>but that's not the real story in this story. the real story here is that this janitor made $86K a year?!</p><p>some sort of 40 year tenure you say? no, he was there for only 5 years</p><p>how does it make sense that a janitor is making $86K a year considering the average new york city school teacher's salary?</p><p>i don't understand how this makes sense to anyone in the new york city school system</p><p><a href="http://www.nydailynews.com/ny\_local/education/2010/03/04/2010-03-04\_custodians\_rap\_cleaned\_city\_out\_of\_30g.html" title="nydailynews.com">http://www.nydailynews.com/ny\_local/education/2010/03/04/2010-03-04\_custodians\_rap\_cleaned\_city\_out\_of\_30g.html</a> [nydailynews.com] </p><blockquote><div><p>The school custodian really cleaned house, officials say.</p><p>The Manhattan man is accused of stealing nearly $30,000 from the city to pay his sons' private school tuition and other personal expenses, city investigators said Wednesday.</p><p>Edwin Hendricks, 42, worked for nearly five years at Manhattan's Thurgood Marshall Academy before investigators discovered he was cutting checks from his custodial account.</p><p>And Hendricks did himself no favors when confronted by investigators.</p><p>He told them he "normally only stole money around the end of the year" when they asked about $4,000 in checks he'd written to employees - including his sister - and cashed himself around Christmas 2008.</p><p>Hendricks also compared himself favorably with a custodian who stole $100,000 from the city. "At least I'm not as bad," he told investigators.</p><p>The custodian claimed he intended to reimburse the city for the $1,400 made out to Solebury School in Pennsylvania, as well as for a $150 political donation to the Committee to Reelect Congressman Ed Towns.</p><p>Hendricks said he was willing to reimburse the city for the money and ultimately admitted to taking $14,000, though investigators think he collected $15,000 more.</p><p>Hendricks, who makes $86,000 a year, has been reassigned to a borough office and did not return a call seeking comment.</p><p>"We will seek his termination," said city Education Department spokeswoman Margie Feinberg.</p></div></blockquote></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>i was kind of disgusted by a recent story i read in the new york daily newsit was a story of a public school janitor who bilked his school 's petty cash fund for janitorial services to the tune of $ 30Kto , among other frivolties , send his kid to private school ( irony meter off the charts ) but that 's not the real story in this story .
the real story here is that this janitor made $ 86K a year ?
! some sort of 40 year tenure you say ?
no , he was there for only 5 yearshow does it make sense that a janitor is making $ 86K a year considering the average new york city school teacher 's salary ? i do n't understand how this makes sense to anyone in the new york city school systemhttp : //www.nydailynews.com/ny \ _local/education/2010/03/04/2010-03-04 \ _custodians \ _rap \ _cleaned \ _city \ _out \ _of \ _30g.html [ nydailynews.com ] The school custodian really cleaned house , officials say.The Manhattan man is accused of stealing nearly $ 30,000 from the city to pay his sons ' private school tuition and other personal expenses , city investigators said Wednesday.Edwin Hendricks , 42 , worked for nearly five years at Manhattan 's Thurgood Marshall Academy before investigators discovered he was cutting checks from his custodial account.And Hendricks did himself no favors when confronted by investigators.He told them he " normally only stole money around the end of the year " when they asked about $ 4,000 in checks he 'd written to employees - including his sister - and cashed himself around Christmas 2008.Hendricks also compared himself favorably with a custodian who stole $ 100,000 from the city .
" At least I 'm not as bad , " he told investigators.The custodian claimed he intended to reimburse the city for the $ 1,400 made out to Solebury School in Pennsylvania , as well as for a $ 150 political donation to the Committee to Reelect Congressman Ed Towns.Hendricks said he was willing to reimburse the city for the money and ultimately admitted to taking $ 14,000 , though investigators think he collected $ 15,000 more.Hendricks , who makes $ 86,000 a year , has been reassigned to a borough office and did not return a call seeking comment .
" We will seek his termination , " said city Education Department spokeswoman Margie Feinberg .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>i was kind of disgusted by a recent story i read in the new york daily newsit was a story of a public school janitor who bilked his school's petty cash fund for janitorial services to the tune of $30Kto, among other frivolties, send his kid to private school (irony meter off the charts)but that's not the real story in this story.
the real story here is that this janitor made $86K a year?
!some sort of 40 year tenure you say?
no, he was there for only 5 yearshow does it make sense that a janitor is making $86K a year considering the average new york city school teacher's salary?i don't understand how this makes sense to anyone in the new york city school systemhttp://www.nydailynews.com/ny\_local/education/2010/03/04/2010-03-04\_custodians\_rap\_cleaned\_city\_out\_of\_30g.html [nydailynews.com] The school custodian really cleaned house, officials say.The Manhattan man is accused of stealing nearly $30,000 from the city to pay his sons' private school tuition and other personal expenses, city investigators said Wednesday.Edwin Hendricks, 42, worked for nearly five years at Manhattan's Thurgood Marshall Academy before investigators discovered he was cutting checks from his custodial account.And Hendricks did himself no favors when confronted by investigators.He told them he "normally only stole money around the end of the year" when they asked about $4,000 in checks he'd written to employees - including his sister - and cashed himself around Christmas 2008.Hendricks also compared himself favorably with a custodian who stole $100,000 from the city.
"At least I'm not as bad," he told investigators.The custodian claimed he intended to reimburse the city for the $1,400 made out to Solebury School in Pennsylvania, as well as for a $150 political donation to the Committee to Reelect Congressman Ed Towns.Hendricks said he was willing to reimburse the city for the money and ultimately admitted to taking $14,000, though investigators think he collected $15,000 more.Hendricks, who makes $86,000 a year, has been reassigned to a borough office and did not return a call seeking comment.
"We will seek his termination," said city Education Department spokeswoman Margie Feinberg.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382842</id>
	<title>Re:Good Teachers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267909140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>And they won't need higher salaries - just a nice bureaucracy and politics-free workplace.</p></div><p>Personally, I've never understood the resistance to paying teachers more.  Our entire push in the last decade has to make schools more business-like.  Normally, the measure of a good business is whether it stays in business.  With schools, however, that metric doesn't work.  No Child Left Untested is an attempt to fix this.  If we have a metric for schools, then we can "bankrupt" those that aren't performing.  We are trying to fit our schools into our free-market philosophy.  However, for some reason, we ignore an elementary free-market observation; if you don't have enough qualified candidates for positions, then you need to improve working conditions and/or offer more money.  Simple, and yet rather than recognize this, people complain about "administration" and call teachers whiners.</p><p>Since we can't outsource education, we've decided to put the squeeze on artificially.  Give schools less money, while at the same time, expect more.  The schools I worked at could use *more* "administration".  Our principal was overworked.  Our secretary was deciding which classes students should be placed in, because our *part-time* counselor was only on campus half the day.  Rooms only got cleaned every third day.  Roofs leaked.  Heating failed.  Our school had no librarian.  There was no music program.  There was no dance program.  There was one visual arts teacher.  After-school programs died as their funding was cut.  What an inspiring place for a student to be.  Really expresses the concern society has for their education.</p><p>And you've got curriculums that are created are created by textbook makers and suits far removed from the realities of students.  You can't teach something to someone who doesn't care.  But "inspiration" is secondary.  Spend a week studying imaginary numbers that culminates in students who actually understand what they're looking at when they see the Mandelbrot Set, and, officially, you've wasted a week, cause that isn't on the tests.  Spend a week working through some of the details and mathematics of how, exactly, your voice is transmitted from your cell phone to mine (something students are always *very* interested in), and, officially, you've now wasted two weeks.  And the tests will show that you're behind.  You must be a bad teacher.</p><p>I often think that our society's vision for teachers is to remove all individuality, all wiggle-room, all deviations from the norm.  In our attempts to make sure that curriculum is presented exactly equally to all students in all schools, we will soon remove teachers all together and replace them with DVD's.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>And they wo n't need higher salaries - just a nice bureaucracy and politics-free workplace.Personally , I 've never understood the resistance to paying teachers more .
Our entire push in the last decade has to make schools more business-like .
Normally , the measure of a good business is whether it stays in business .
With schools , however , that metric does n't work .
No Child Left Untested is an attempt to fix this .
If we have a metric for schools , then we can " bankrupt " those that are n't performing .
We are trying to fit our schools into our free-market philosophy .
However , for some reason , we ignore an elementary free-market observation ; if you do n't have enough qualified candidates for positions , then you need to improve working conditions and/or offer more money .
Simple , and yet rather than recognize this , people complain about " administration " and call teachers whiners.Since we ca n't outsource education , we 've decided to put the squeeze on artificially .
Give schools less money , while at the same time , expect more .
The schools I worked at could use * more * " administration " .
Our principal was overworked .
Our secretary was deciding which classes students should be placed in , because our * part-time * counselor was only on campus half the day .
Rooms only got cleaned every third day .
Roofs leaked .
Heating failed .
Our school had no librarian .
There was no music program .
There was no dance program .
There was one visual arts teacher .
After-school programs died as their funding was cut .
What an inspiring place for a student to be .
Really expresses the concern society has for their education.And you 've got curriculums that are created are created by textbook makers and suits far removed from the realities of students .
You ca n't teach something to someone who does n't care .
But " inspiration " is secondary .
Spend a week studying imaginary numbers that culminates in students who actually understand what they 're looking at when they see the Mandelbrot Set , and , officially , you 've wasted a week , cause that is n't on the tests .
Spend a week working through some of the details and mathematics of how , exactly , your voice is transmitted from your cell phone to mine ( something students are always * very * interested in ) , and , officially , you 've now wasted two weeks .
And the tests will show that you 're behind .
You must be a bad teacher.I often think that our society 's vision for teachers is to remove all individuality , all wiggle-room , all deviations from the norm .
In our attempts to make sure that curriculum is presented exactly equally to all students in all schools , we will soon remove teachers all together and replace them with DVD 's .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And they won't need higher salaries - just a nice bureaucracy and politics-free workplace.Personally, I've never understood the resistance to paying teachers more.
Our entire push in the last decade has to make schools more business-like.
Normally, the measure of a good business is whether it stays in business.
With schools, however, that metric doesn't work.
No Child Left Untested is an attempt to fix this.
If we have a metric for schools, then we can "bankrupt" those that aren't performing.
We are trying to fit our schools into our free-market philosophy.
However, for some reason, we ignore an elementary free-market observation; if you don't have enough qualified candidates for positions, then you need to improve working conditions and/or offer more money.
Simple, and yet rather than recognize this, people complain about "administration" and call teachers whiners.Since we can't outsource education, we've decided to put the squeeze on artificially.
Give schools less money, while at the same time, expect more.
The schools I worked at could use *more* "administration".
Our principal was overworked.
Our secretary was deciding which classes students should be placed in, because our *part-time* counselor was only on campus half the day.
Rooms only got cleaned every third day.
Roofs leaked.
Heating failed.
Our school had no librarian.
There was no music program.
There was no dance program.
There was one visual arts teacher.
After-school programs died as their funding was cut.
What an inspiring place for a student to be.
Really expresses the concern society has for their education.And you've got curriculums that are created are created by textbook makers and suits far removed from the realities of students.
You can't teach something to someone who doesn't care.
But "inspiration" is secondary.
Spend a week studying imaginary numbers that culminates in students who actually understand what they're looking at when they see the Mandelbrot Set, and, officially, you've wasted a week, cause that isn't on the tests.
Spend a week working through some of the details and mathematics of how, exactly, your voice is transmitted from your cell phone to mine (something students are always *very* interested in), and, officially, you've now wasted two weeks.
And the tests will show that you're behind.
You must be a bad teacher.I often think that our society's vision for teachers is to remove all individuality, all wiggle-room, all deviations from the norm.
In our attempts to make sure that curriculum is presented exactly equally to all students in all schools, we will soon remove teachers all together and replace them with DVD's.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382178</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31385684</id>
	<title>Re:People love to blame problems on teachers</title>
	<author>ErikZ</author>
	<datestamp>1267888080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>You may be surprised to learn that there's a significant minority of parents that believe that teachers are just babysitters, and that school is just something that the government unnecessarily requires their children to do.</i></p><p>They probably learned that from personal experience.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You may be surprised to learn that there 's a significant minority of parents that believe that teachers are just babysitters , and that school is just something that the government unnecessarily requires their children to do.They probably learned that from personal experience .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You may be surprised to learn that there's a significant minority of parents that believe that teachers are just babysitters, and that school is just something that the government unnecessarily requires their children to do.They probably learned that from personal experience.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31384058</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31386794</id>
	<title>Liar.  And teachers are overpaid morons.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267900440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>All lies.</p><p>Also, not only are teachers overpaid, but where the most money per student is being spent, results are among the worst.</p><p>Facts are, teaching is easy as hell and teachers are among the dumbest college graduates.  They're the lowest or second-lowest scorers on the GMAT.  We need to replace the teaching profession with home-schooling using computers or a modern equivalent of a one-room schoolhouse where kids just learn from software with proven results.  Rather than make-believe that millions of relative dunces will ever teach well, let's create and revise and statistically analayze and re-revise software using geniuses.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>All lies.Also , not only are teachers overpaid , but where the most money per student is being spent , results are among the worst.Facts are , teaching is easy as hell and teachers are among the dumbest college graduates .
They 're the lowest or second-lowest scorers on the GMAT .
We need to replace the teaching profession with home-schooling using computers or a modern equivalent of a one-room schoolhouse where kids just learn from software with proven results .
Rather than make-believe that millions of relative dunces will ever teach well , let 's create and revise and statistically analayze and re-revise software using geniuses .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>All lies.Also, not only are teachers overpaid, but where the most money per student is being spent, results are among the worst.Facts are, teaching is easy as hell and teachers are among the dumbest college graduates.
They're the lowest or second-lowest scorers on the GMAT.
We need to replace the teaching profession with home-schooling using computers or a modern equivalent of a one-room schoolhouse where kids just learn from software with proven results.
Rather than make-believe that millions of relative dunces will ever teach well, let's create and revise and statistically analayze and re-revise software using geniuses.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382842</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31394920</id>
	<title>Lost Cause</title>
	<author>bmajik</author>
	<datestamp>1267964640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No amount of time or money or advocacy will fix the system in a timeframe useful to my own children, so the only reasonable solution for me is to opt-out.  I plan on homeschooling.</p><p>So long as the government has its tendrils in schooling, schooling will continue to work contrary to the goal of educating.</p><p>If I retain the freedoms of homeschooling and firearms ownership, you people can ruin society for yourselves.  We'll, to borrow a popularism, route around the defects.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No amount of time or money or advocacy will fix the system in a timeframe useful to my own children , so the only reasonable solution for me is to opt-out .
I plan on homeschooling.So long as the government has its tendrils in schooling , schooling will continue to work contrary to the goal of educating.If I retain the freedoms of homeschooling and firearms ownership , you people can ruin society for yourselves .
We 'll , to borrow a popularism , route around the defects .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No amount of time or money or advocacy will fix the system in a timeframe useful to my own children, so the only reasonable solution for me is to opt-out.
I plan on homeschooling.So long as the government has its tendrils in schooling, schooling will continue to work contrary to the goal of educating.If I retain the freedoms of homeschooling and firearms ownership, you people can ruin society for yourselves.
We'll, to borrow a popularism, route around the defects.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382958</id>
	<title>Re:Better teachers and more funding !</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267866660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And of course, in Randroid-land, the teachers' opposition to vouchers has nothing to do with the fact that voucher systems tend to act as negative selection systems, further depleting the public schools of students whose parents give a fuck. This, of course, leads to more calls for vouchers and more disintegration of the public schools, and gives Grover Norquist a raging hard-on.</p><p>Meanwhile, the private schools run just like a business - which means that cheating on standardized tests is the rule of the day, and students who are "difficult" (ie, expensive) are told to GTFO.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And of course , in Randroid-land , the teachers ' opposition to vouchers has nothing to do with the fact that voucher systems tend to act as negative selection systems , further depleting the public schools of students whose parents give a fuck .
This , of course , leads to more calls for vouchers and more disintegration of the public schools , and gives Grover Norquist a raging hard-on.Meanwhile , the private schools run just like a business - which means that cheating on standardized tests is the rule of the day , and students who are " difficult " ( ie , expensive ) are told to GTFO .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And of course, in Randroid-land, the teachers' opposition to vouchers has nothing to do with the fact that voucher systems tend to act as negative selection systems, further depleting the public schools of students whose parents give a fuck.
This, of course, leads to more calls for vouchers and more disintegration of the public schools, and gives Grover Norquist a raging hard-on.Meanwhile, the private schools run just like a business - which means that cheating on standardized tests is the rule of the day, and students who are "difficult" (ie, expensive) are told to GTFO.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382282</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31386336</id>
	<title>Lessons from Sweden</title>
	<author>Puff\_Of\_Hot\_Air</author>
	<datestamp>1267894860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><a href="http://www.physorg.com/news185543259.html" title="physorg.com" rel="nofollow">Report explains declining school performance in Sweden</a> [physorg.com]

Let me summarize the article for you. Sweden's standard of education (still very high, much higher than the US) has been in decline. The reasons are as follows.
1) Schools only to a limited degree compensate for socioeconomic differences. (as you have stated)
2)The most important resource factor is teacher competence.
3)The level of segregation in the school system has increased. Widespread housing segregation and the right to choose which school to attend have resulted in more homogenous student bodies, which affects learning negatively (All the poor kids in one school, and all the rich kids in another is bad for everyone).
4) Less direction on learning outcomes and methods has led to less teacher-led instruction and this negatively affects children's performance.

I don't know how you improve on these things (apart from point 2 and 4), but it seems to me that this is a great list to work from.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Report explains declining school performance in Sweden [ physorg.com ] Let me summarize the article for you .
Sweden 's standard of education ( still very high , much higher than the US ) has been in decline .
The reasons are as follows .
1 ) Schools only to a limited degree compensate for socioeconomic differences .
( as you have stated ) 2 ) The most important resource factor is teacher competence .
3 ) The level of segregation in the school system has increased .
Widespread housing segregation and the right to choose which school to attend have resulted in more homogenous student bodies , which affects learning negatively ( All the poor kids in one school , and all the rich kids in another is bad for everyone ) .
4 ) Less direction on learning outcomes and methods has led to less teacher-led instruction and this negatively affects children 's performance .
I do n't know how you improve on these things ( apart from point 2 and 4 ) , but it seems to me that this is a great list to work from .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Report explains declining school performance in Sweden [physorg.com]

Let me summarize the article for you.
Sweden's standard of education (still very high, much higher than the US) has been in decline.
The reasons are as follows.
1) Schools only to a limited degree compensate for socioeconomic differences.
(as you have stated)
2)The most important resource factor is teacher competence.
3)The level of segregation in the school system has increased.
Widespread housing segregation and the right to choose which school to attend have resulted in more homogenous student bodies, which affects learning negatively (All the poor kids in one school, and all the rich kids in another is bad for everyone).
4) Less direction on learning outcomes and methods has led to less teacher-led instruction and this negatively affects children's performance.
I don't know how you improve on these things (apart from point 2 and 4), but it seems to me that this is a great list to work from.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382406</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31384020</id>
	<title>Adults and Culture</title>
	<author>inhuman\_4</author>
	<datestamp>1267874220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have never been part of the US education system but here is what I have learned from being part of the Canadian (Ontario) education system.</p><p>1) The most important part of a kids education is the PARENTS. Parents who felt that education was important had kids that did well in school. Parent who treated school like a daycare so they could avoid having to actually raise their kids had children who did poorly. The school has no real power over the students. Detention, being sent to "the office" means nothing. If the parents don't teach discipline to their kids, it won't happen, the school cannot do it.</p><p>2) Reading. Kids who read and are encouraged to read do much better then those who do not. What they read doesn't matter. It could be sci-fi, romance, or comic books. The more they read the more they become accustomed to it. I had a friend in high school who never read a novel before. When it came time to read books for English class he struggled. Not because he was bad student, but because reading in volume was just not something he was acclimated to.</p><p>3) Money. It may be politically incorrect but it's true, rich kids do better. I don't know if it is because they get better meals, more opportunities, or something else. But on average, rich kids have a much better chance of doing well then poor ones.</p><p>4) Culture. I don't know when it started, but today's culture is very anti-intellectual. You hear about kids wanting to be astronauts, doctors, lawyers, and scientists in the media. Perhaps it was that way during the space race, but it most certainly is not now. Many of my peers (I am in my early 20s) wanted to be athletes, media personalities, rock stars (for the money not the music), and movie stars. There seems to be almost no interest educated professions any more. No one dreams of a career where they will need an education.</p><p>You can spend all the money you want to pay for the best teacher and class rooms money can buy. But if the kids are not willing to learn, if they were not raised in an environment that encourages learning, they will not get anything from it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have never been part of the US education system but here is what I have learned from being part of the Canadian ( Ontario ) education system.1 ) The most important part of a kids education is the PARENTS .
Parents who felt that education was important had kids that did well in school .
Parent who treated school like a daycare so they could avoid having to actually raise their kids had children who did poorly .
The school has no real power over the students .
Detention , being sent to " the office " means nothing .
If the parents do n't teach discipline to their kids , it wo n't happen , the school can not do it.2 ) Reading .
Kids who read and are encouraged to read do much better then those who do not .
What they read does n't matter .
It could be sci-fi , romance , or comic books .
The more they read the more they become accustomed to it .
I had a friend in high school who never read a novel before .
When it came time to read books for English class he struggled .
Not because he was bad student , but because reading in volume was just not something he was acclimated to.3 ) Money .
It may be politically incorrect but it 's true , rich kids do better .
I do n't know if it is because they get better meals , more opportunities , or something else .
But on average , rich kids have a much better chance of doing well then poor ones.4 ) Culture .
I do n't know when it started , but today 's culture is very anti-intellectual .
You hear about kids wanting to be astronauts , doctors , lawyers , and scientists in the media .
Perhaps it was that way during the space race , but it most certainly is not now .
Many of my peers ( I am in my early 20s ) wanted to be athletes , media personalities , rock stars ( for the money not the music ) , and movie stars .
There seems to be almost no interest educated professions any more .
No one dreams of a career where they will need an education.You can spend all the money you want to pay for the best teacher and class rooms money can buy .
But if the kids are not willing to learn , if they were not raised in an environment that encourages learning , they will not get anything from it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have never been part of the US education system but here is what I have learned from being part of the Canadian (Ontario) education system.1) The most important part of a kids education is the PARENTS.
Parents who felt that education was important had kids that did well in school.
Parent who treated school like a daycare so they could avoid having to actually raise their kids had children who did poorly.
The school has no real power over the students.
Detention, being sent to "the office" means nothing.
If the parents don't teach discipline to their kids, it won't happen, the school cannot do it.2) Reading.
Kids who read and are encouraged to read do much better then those who do not.
What they read doesn't matter.
It could be sci-fi, romance, or comic books.
The more they read the more they become accustomed to it.
I had a friend in high school who never read a novel before.
When it came time to read books for English class he struggled.
Not because he was bad student, but because reading in volume was just not something he was acclimated to.3) Money.
It may be politically incorrect but it's true, rich kids do better.
I don't know if it is because they get better meals, more opportunities, or something else.
But on average, rich kids have a much better chance of doing well then poor ones.4) Culture.
I don't know when it started, but today's culture is very anti-intellectual.
You hear about kids wanting to be astronauts, doctors, lawyers, and scientists in the media.
Perhaps it was that way during the space race, but it most certainly is not now.
Many of my peers (I am in my early 20s) wanted to be athletes, media personalities, rock stars (for the money not the music), and movie stars.
There seems to be almost no interest educated professions any more.
No one dreams of a career where they will need an education.You can spend all the money you want to pay for the best teacher and class rooms money can buy.
But if the kids are not willing to learn, if they were not raised in an environment that encourages learning, they will not get anything from it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31384824</id>
	<title>Re:overwhelming social and economic forces</title>
	<author>melikamp</author>
	<datestamp>1267881180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You may be right about average, but there is something you guys can do to level the playing field. From the Wiki:</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Public school systems are supported by a combination of local, state, and federal government funding. Because a large portion of school revenues come from local property taxes, public schools vary widely in the resources they have available per student. Class size also varies significantly from one district to another.</p></div><p>Public education quality would be much more uniform if only the federal taxes paid for it. No one will ever make a system where everyone gets a stellar education, but at least you could have one that doesn't selectively shaft entire strata of the society.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You may be right about average , but there is something you guys can do to level the playing field .
From the Wiki : Public school systems are supported by a combination of local , state , and federal government funding .
Because a large portion of school revenues come from local property taxes , public schools vary widely in the resources they have available per student .
Class size also varies significantly from one district to another.Public education quality would be much more uniform if only the federal taxes paid for it .
No one will ever make a system where everyone gets a stellar education , but at least you could have one that does n't selectively shaft entire strata of the society .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You may be right about average, but there is something you guys can do to level the playing field.
From the Wiki:Public school systems are supported by a combination of local, state, and federal government funding.
Because a large portion of school revenues come from local property taxes, public schools vary widely in the resources they have available per student.
Class size also varies significantly from one district to another.Public education quality would be much more uniform if only the federal taxes paid for it.
No one will ever make a system where everyone gets a stellar education, but at least you could have one that doesn't selectively shaft entire strata of the society.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382406</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382692</id>
	<title>systematic control of intellectual growth</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267908060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>1. One size Definitely DOESN'T fit all. Each classroom is not the same. They have there own personality that most experience teachers recognize immediately.<br>Yet,Teachers are not allowed to teach. They have to follow the script mandated by the school department of the state. Any freestyling off script is frowned upon.<br>New inexperienced teachers don't realize this because of the gap in teachers generations, exacerbated by firings, denial of tenure and forced retirement packages.</p><p>3.TESTS TESTS TESTS AKA Bullshyt</p><p>Some Kids excel at testing, successful at Life.<br>Some Kids excel at testing, FAIL at Life.<br>Some Kids suck at testing, FAIL at Life.<br>Some Kids suck at testing, sucessful at Life.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>1 .
One size Definitely DOES N'T fit all .
Each classroom is not the same .
They have there own personality that most experience teachers recognize immediately.Yet,Teachers are not allowed to teach .
They have to follow the script mandated by the school department of the state .
Any freestyling off script is frowned upon.New inexperienced teachers do n't realize this because of the gap in teachers generations , exacerbated by firings , denial of tenure and forced retirement packages.3.TESTS TESTS TESTS AKA BullshytSome Kids excel at testing , successful at Life.Some Kids excel at testing , FAIL at Life.Some Kids suck at testing , FAIL at Life.Some Kids suck at testing , sucessful at Life .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>1.
One size Definitely DOESN'T fit all.
Each classroom is not the same.
They have there own personality that most experience teachers recognize immediately.Yet,Teachers are not allowed to teach.
They have to follow the script mandated by the school department of the state.
Any freestyling off script is frowned upon.New inexperienced teachers don't realize this because of the gap in teachers generations, exacerbated by firings, denial of tenure and forced retirement packages.3.TESTS TESTS TESTS AKA BullshytSome Kids excel at testing, successful at Life.Some Kids excel at testing, FAIL at Life.Some Kids suck at testing, FAIL at Life.Some Kids suck at testing, sucessful at Life.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382738</id>
	<title>Re:Teachers Unions</title>
	<author>Ironchew</author>
	<datestamp>1267908360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Funny you should mention that.  The discussion is already saturated with laissez-faire anti-union shills.  "If only we got rid of public education so the educational system will be driven by profit and market forces!  The private sector solves everything!"  Take away one of the last things in the United States that the public has any say about, right?  Everything will be fine?  It sounds to me like education for the rich.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Funny you should mention that .
The discussion is already saturated with laissez-faire anti-union shills .
" If only we got rid of public education so the educational system will be driven by profit and market forces !
The private sector solves everything !
" Take away one of the last things in the United States that the public has any say about , right ?
Everything will be fine ?
It sounds to me like education for the rich .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Funny you should mention that.
The discussion is already saturated with laissez-faire anti-union shills.
"If only we got rid of public education so the educational system will be driven by profit and market forces!
The private sector solves everything!
"  Take away one of the last things in the United States that the public has any say about, right?
Everything will be fine?
It sounds to me like education for the rich.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382066</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31396298</id>
	<title>multivariate problem of astounding scale</title>
	<author>gizmo\_mathboy</author>
	<datestamp>1267974000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Better teachers and better education is a problem that has lots of factors of which I'll only address the ones that I care about. This mostly pertains to elementary education majors.</p><p>1. The average education major is less academically capable than your average college student.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; I'm sort of bending the findings of a study from about 15 years ago:</p><p><a href="http://www.ets.org/Media/Research/pdf/RR-03-35.pdf" title="ets.org">The Academic Quality of Prospective Teachers: The Impact of Admissions and Licensure Testing</a> [ets.org] (warning this is a link to a pdf).</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; There are exceptions, those going into to teaching science or math have just as good a scores as math or science major. If you start off with poor talent it won't get much better no matter how good the training.</p><p>2. We pay teachers not nearly enough money.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; If we really value education we need to pay them more. We need to be willing to pay the taxes to support the important job they do. Every good engineer, scientist or mathematician probably had a good teacher some time in their life. Too bad there aren't more.</p><p>3. We need better metrics to define what a good teacher is.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Don't get me started with the fiasco that is No Child Left Behind. Poor testing, poor accountability and poor funding.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; How about to test a teacher's effectiveness we compare apples to apples. Let a teacher stay with a group of students for 2 to 3 years. They we can better tell if it's the student or teacher. If that doesn't work how about comparing the student's progress instead of the group's progress (which my wife thinks is a suggested change for NCLB), you will also need to control for similar groups (smart kids vs. smart kids).</p><p>4. Get rid of bad people earlier in the cycle (mostly at the college level).</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I think this applies to all majors. Weed-out courses earlier. My major back in school (aero engineering) had to take an electrical engineering weed out course our sophomore year (don't ask me why). It will make you think twice if you want to pursue a major.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I think for teachers they need to take a public speaking course early on. If you can't talk in front of a class of 20-30 peers you certainly can't do that in front of a bunch of unruly kids. I get this idea mostly from my wife's experience as an instructor in a school of education (teaching teachers how to teach basically). Most of the kids have a horrible time teaching a lesson and this is as juniors/seniors.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Hell, even better give them a taste of teaching no later than their sophomore year. Most don't get that until their junior year. By then it's too late for them to do anything but finish their degree. This means they either will go into the system as a lousy teacher or flail around with a degree they don't like or can't use.</p><p>Extra bonus crazy idea.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Treat teachers like doctors/trade crafts. Extra training and lots of practical experience before we unleash them by themselves. Basically after they get their initial degree/license they will need to work with another teacher (like a residency/apprenticeship) before they get to pass another examination and get to teach on their own. The downside this would be rather pricey. Depends if you think education is important or not.</p><p>Extra bonus rant:</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I think students, college students at least since I work on a university, are less capable than 15-20 years ago. The top 10\% are amazing probably better than the top 10\% of 15-20 years ago. The bottom 10\% are the bottom 10\% and it doesn't matter too much if they are better or worse. The middle 80\% just seem less able to do the work and understand the content of most college level degrees. I've asked many people about this observation (from professors that have been doing this for decades to students themselves) and their answer has generally been yes. I do submit the caveat that the plural of anecdote is not data. So take all of this with a block of salt.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Better teachers and better education is a problem that has lots of factors of which I 'll only address the ones that I care about .
This mostly pertains to elementary education majors.1 .
The average education major is less academically capable than your average college student .
    I 'm sort of bending the findings of a study from about 15 years ago : The Academic Quality of Prospective Teachers : The Impact of Admissions and Licensure Testing [ ets.org ] ( warning this is a link to a pdf ) .
    There are exceptions , those going into to teaching science or math have just as good a scores as math or science major .
If you start off with poor talent it wo n't get much better no matter how good the training.2 .
We pay teachers not nearly enough money .
    If we really value education we need to pay them more .
We need to be willing to pay the taxes to support the important job they do .
Every good engineer , scientist or mathematician probably had a good teacher some time in their life .
Too bad there are n't more.3 .
We need better metrics to define what a good teacher is .
    Do n't get me started with the fiasco that is No Child Left Behind .
Poor testing , poor accountability and poor funding .
    How about to test a teacher 's effectiveness we compare apples to apples .
Let a teacher stay with a group of students for 2 to 3 years .
They we can better tell if it 's the student or teacher .
If that does n't work how about comparing the student 's progress instead of the group 's progress ( which my wife thinks is a suggested change for NCLB ) , you will also need to control for similar groups ( smart kids vs. smart kids ) .4 .
Get rid of bad people earlier in the cycle ( mostly at the college level ) .
      I think this applies to all majors .
Weed-out courses earlier .
My major back in school ( aero engineering ) had to take an electrical engineering weed out course our sophomore year ( do n't ask me why ) .
It will make you think twice if you want to pursue a major .
      I think for teachers they need to take a public speaking course early on .
If you ca n't talk in front of a class of 20-30 peers you certainly ca n't do that in front of a bunch of unruly kids .
I get this idea mostly from my wife 's experience as an instructor in a school of education ( teaching teachers how to teach basically ) .
Most of the kids have a horrible time teaching a lesson and this is as juniors/seniors .
      Hell , even better give them a taste of teaching no later than their sophomore year .
Most do n't get that until their junior year .
By then it 's too late for them to do anything but finish their degree .
This means they either will go into the system as a lousy teacher or flail around with a degree they do n't like or ca n't use.Extra bonus crazy idea .
      Treat teachers like doctors/trade crafts .
Extra training and lots of practical experience before we unleash them by themselves .
Basically after they get their initial degree/license they will need to work with another teacher ( like a residency/apprenticeship ) before they get to pass another examination and get to teach on their own .
The downside this would be rather pricey .
Depends if you think education is important or not.Extra bonus rant :       I think students , college students at least since I work on a university , are less capable than 15-20 years ago .
The top 10 \ % are amazing probably better than the top 10 \ % of 15-20 years ago .
The bottom 10 \ % are the bottom 10 \ % and it does n't matter too much if they are better or worse .
The middle 80 \ % just seem less able to do the work and understand the content of most college level degrees .
I 've asked many people about this observation ( from professors that have been doing this for decades to students themselves ) and their answer has generally been yes .
I do submit the caveat that the plural of anecdote is not data .
So take all of this with a block of salt .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Better teachers and better education is a problem that has lots of factors of which I'll only address the ones that I care about.
This mostly pertains to elementary education majors.1.
The average education major is less academically capable than your average college student.
    I'm sort of bending the findings of a study from about 15 years ago:The Academic Quality of Prospective Teachers: The Impact of Admissions and Licensure Testing [ets.org] (warning this is a link to a pdf).
    There are exceptions, those going into to teaching science or math have just as good a scores as math or science major.
If you start off with poor talent it won't get much better no matter how good the training.2.
We pay teachers not nearly enough money.
    If we really value education we need to pay them more.
We need to be willing to pay the taxes to support the important job they do.
Every good engineer, scientist or mathematician probably had a good teacher some time in their life.
Too bad there aren't more.3.
We need better metrics to define what a good teacher is.
    Don't get me started with the fiasco that is No Child Left Behind.
Poor testing, poor accountability and poor funding.
    How about to test a teacher's effectiveness we compare apples to apples.
Let a teacher stay with a group of students for 2 to 3 years.
They we can better tell if it's the student or teacher.
If that doesn't work how about comparing the student's progress instead of the group's progress (which my wife thinks is a suggested change for NCLB), you will also need to control for similar groups (smart kids vs. smart kids).4.
Get rid of bad people earlier in the cycle (mostly at the college level).
      I think this applies to all majors.
Weed-out courses earlier.
My major back in school (aero engineering) had to take an electrical engineering weed out course our sophomore year (don't ask me why).
It will make you think twice if you want to pursue a major.
      I think for teachers they need to take a public speaking course early on.
If you can't talk in front of a class of 20-30 peers you certainly can't do that in front of a bunch of unruly kids.
I get this idea mostly from my wife's experience as an instructor in a school of education (teaching teachers how to teach basically).
Most of the kids have a horrible time teaching a lesson and this is as juniors/seniors.
      Hell, even better give them a taste of teaching no later than their sophomore year.
Most don't get that until their junior year.
By then it's too late for them to do anything but finish their degree.
This means they either will go into the system as a lousy teacher or flail around with a degree they don't like or can't use.Extra bonus crazy idea.
      Treat teachers like doctors/trade crafts.
Extra training and lots of practical experience before we unleash them by themselves.
Basically after they get their initial degree/license they will need to work with another teacher (like a residency/apprenticeship) before they get to pass another examination and get to teach on their own.
The downside this would be rather pricey.
Depends if you think education is important or not.Extra bonus rant:
      I think students, college students at least since I work on a university, are less capable than 15-20 years ago.
The top 10\% are amazing probably better than the top 10\% of 15-20 years ago.
The bottom 10\% are the bottom 10\% and it doesn't matter too much if they are better or worse.
The middle 80\% just seem less able to do the work and understand the content of most college level degrees.
I've asked many people about this observation (from professors that have been doing this for decades to students themselves) and their answer has generally been yes.
I do submit the caveat that the plural of anecdote is not data.
So take all of this with a block of salt.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31383102</id>
	<title>Re:overwhelming social and economic forces</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267867500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How easy is it to identify a good teacher in a job interview?  Even if you have them do a demo lecture, that is one that they had weeks to prepare, not 1/3 of a night (if teaching 3 preps in block, even less for traditional scheduling).  Even if 75\% of your hires turn out bad, if you are able to keep the good ones and fire the bad, you should still be able to end up with a significantly better teaching staff than the applicant pool as a whole.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How easy is it to identify a good teacher in a job interview ?
Even if you have them do a demo lecture , that is one that they had weeks to prepare , not 1/3 of a night ( if teaching 3 preps in block , even less for traditional scheduling ) .
Even if 75 \ % of your hires turn out bad , if you are able to keep the good ones and fire the bad , you should still be able to end up with a significantly better teaching staff than the applicant pool as a whole .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How easy is it to identify a good teacher in a job interview?
Even if you have them do a demo lecture, that is one that they had weeks to prepare, not 1/3 of a night (if teaching 3 preps in block, even less for traditional scheduling).
Even if 75\% of your hires turn out bad, if you are able to keep the good ones and fire the bad, you should still be able to end up with a significantly better teaching staff than the applicant pool as a whole.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382406</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31388556</id>
	<title>Re:Prental Involment?</title>
	<author>berberine</author>
	<datestamp>1267968540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p><div class="quote"><p>In many "at risk" districts teachers spend more than half their day making sure the kids aren't hungry, are behaving in class, have their homework completed, and have the supplies that they need like pencils.</p></div><p>I can't speak to a wider trend, but I can verify this in the case of at least one public school.  My wife teaches 9th graders and regularly brings food for her students just to make sure they have eaten, because there isn't any at home.  She also gives them books that she's finished reading, because otherwise they wouldn't have any at home.  Turns out when somebody actually takes the time to figure out what they're interested in, and then provides those books, these kids really like to read.</p></div><p>
There's a similar thing at the school I work at as well.  These kids usually get free breakfast and lunch at school and on Fridays the kids go to the office before going home and get a brown paper bag with food for the weekend for the kid.  This is all voluntary and the food comes from other students.  It's all anonymous so as to try and minimize embarrassment for the poor students.
<br>
<br>
There's on kid in particular who has told me several times that he is glad to come to school because he gets two meals a day there and he doesn't have to listen to his parents fighting.  His parents even refused to buy him soap and deodorant for PE class.  One of the kids in his class gave him some and I honestly think that his shower after PE every day is the only shower he gets.  He always comes to talk to me after school, even though it's just for 15 minutes because that's 15 minutes someone pays attention to him and 15 minutes less he has to be at home for.  He's a bright kid, but his parents just don't care.  His home life sucks, so he doesn't get a lot of homework done.  The sad thing is, if his parents gave a shit, he'd be an A student instead of a C student.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>In many " at risk " districts teachers spend more than half their day making sure the kids are n't hungry , are behaving in class , have their homework completed , and have the supplies that they need like pencils.I ca n't speak to a wider trend , but I can verify this in the case of at least one public school .
My wife teaches 9th graders and regularly brings food for her students just to make sure they have eaten , because there is n't any at home .
She also gives them books that she 's finished reading , because otherwise they would n't have any at home .
Turns out when somebody actually takes the time to figure out what they 're interested in , and then provides those books , these kids really like to read .
There 's a similar thing at the school I work at as well .
These kids usually get free breakfast and lunch at school and on Fridays the kids go to the office before going home and get a brown paper bag with food for the weekend for the kid .
This is all voluntary and the food comes from other students .
It 's all anonymous so as to try and minimize embarrassment for the poor students .
There 's on kid in particular who has told me several times that he is glad to come to school because he gets two meals a day there and he does n't have to listen to his parents fighting .
His parents even refused to buy him soap and deodorant for PE class .
One of the kids in his class gave him some and I honestly think that his shower after PE every day is the only shower he gets .
He always comes to talk to me after school , even though it 's just for 15 minutes because that 's 15 minutes someone pays attention to him and 15 minutes less he has to be at home for .
He 's a bright kid , but his parents just do n't care .
His home life sucks , so he does n't get a lot of homework done .
The sad thing is , if his parents gave a shit , he 'd be an A student instead of a C student .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In many "at risk" districts teachers spend more than half their day making sure the kids aren't hungry, are behaving in class, have their homework completed, and have the supplies that they need like pencils.I can't speak to a wider trend, but I can verify this in the case of at least one public school.
My wife teaches 9th graders and regularly brings food for her students just to make sure they have eaten, because there isn't any at home.
She also gives them books that she's finished reading, because otherwise they wouldn't have any at home.
Turns out when somebody actually takes the time to figure out what they're interested in, and then provides those books, these kids really like to read.
There's a similar thing at the school I work at as well.
These kids usually get free breakfast and lunch at school and on Fridays the kids go to the office before going home and get a brown paper bag with food for the weekend for the kid.
This is all voluntary and the food comes from other students.
It's all anonymous so as to try and minimize embarrassment for the poor students.
There's on kid in particular who has told me several times that he is glad to come to school because he gets two meals a day there and he doesn't have to listen to his parents fighting.
His parents even refused to buy him soap and deodorant for PE class.
One of the kids in his class gave him some and I honestly think that his shower after PE every day is the only shower he gets.
He always comes to talk to me after school, even though it's just for 15 minutes because that's 15 minutes someone pays attention to him and 15 minutes less he has to be at home for.
He's a bright kid, but his parents just don't care.
His home life sucks, so he doesn't get a lot of homework done.
The sad thing is, if his parents gave a shit, he'd be an A student instead of a C student.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31384136</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31385350</id>
	<title>Re:You know it after you have seen it.</title>
	<author>sunyjim</author>
	<datestamp>1267885320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Really? a the general paddled his desk chair eh? you sure that was you?
Because sounds like the 1984 movie "Teachers"
<a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088242/" title="imdb.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088242/</a> [imdb.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>Really ?
a the general paddled his desk chair eh ?
you sure that was you ?
Because sounds like the 1984 movie " Teachers " http : //www.imdb.com/title/tt0088242/ [ imdb.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Really?
a the general paddled his desk chair eh?
you sure that was you?
Because sounds like the 1984 movie "Teachers"
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088242/ [imdb.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382210</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31384278</id>
	<title>Re:  Not So Fast</title>
	<author>fishexe</author>
	<datestamp>1267876380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>If you test an English teacher on his English knowledge he may test poorly but he just might be intensely skilled in the narrow knowledge needed to teach his eight grade English class and he might be the type of teacher that gets through to the students.</p></div><p>I always wondered if there's a good way to evaluate the trade-off between deep subject knowledge and teaching skill.  I know 1st-semester calculus well enough to teach it, and I believe I could teach it to anybody, and yet I will probably never study higher math (of the kind that math majors need to know to get their BS) and thus will never get the opportunity to teach it to a class.  I've had several math professors (all with PhDs) who are marginally competent at getting students' interest and getting students to understand, but I will never have the credentials to take over that job even though I could do it better.  (note that I'm not saying dilettantes with teaching skills should replace professors, just that more lower-level courses should be taught by them...in upper-level college coursework the premium from having a true expert, who is actively engaged in relevant research, teaching the class goes up exponentially)</p><p>On the other hand, I've also had instructors in all fields who could perfectly well handle teaching as long as they stuck exactly to the curriculum, but who if asked a complicated why-question would blubber about and get it totally wrong.  Their knowledge of what they were doing was cursory, not deep, and this did pedagogical harm to their students, all of whom finished the class believing false things because the teacher just didn't know their field.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you test an English teacher on his English knowledge he may test poorly but he just might be intensely skilled in the narrow knowledge needed to teach his eight grade English class and he might be the type of teacher that gets through to the students.I always wondered if there 's a good way to evaluate the trade-off between deep subject knowledge and teaching skill .
I know 1st-semester calculus well enough to teach it , and I believe I could teach it to anybody , and yet I will probably never study higher math ( of the kind that math majors need to know to get their BS ) and thus will never get the opportunity to teach it to a class .
I 've had several math professors ( all with PhDs ) who are marginally competent at getting students ' interest and getting students to understand , but I will never have the credentials to take over that job even though I could do it better .
( note that I 'm not saying dilettantes with teaching skills should replace professors , just that more lower-level courses should be taught by them...in upper-level college coursework the premium from having a true expert , who is actively engaged in relevant research , teaching the class goes up exponentially ) On the other hand , I 've also had instructors in all fields who could perfectly well handle teaching as long as they stuck exactly to the curriculum , but who if asked a complicated why-question would blubber about and get it totally wrong .
Their knowledge of what they were doing was cursory , not deep , and this did pedagogical harm to their students , all of whom finished the class believing false things because the teacher just did n't know their field .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you test an English teacher on his English knowledge he may test poorly but he just might be intensely skilled in the narrow knowledge needed to teach his eight grade English class and he might be the type of teacher that gets through to the students.I always wondered if there's a good way to evaluate the trade-off between deep subject knowledge and teaching skill.
I know 1st-semester calculus well enough to teach it, and I believe I could teach it to anybody, and yet I will probably never study higher math (of the kind that math majors need to know to get their BS) and thus will never get the opportunity to teach it to a class.
I've had several math professors (all with PhDs) who are marginally competent at getting students' interest and getting students to understand, but I will never have the credentials to take over that job even though I could do it better.
(note that I'm not saying dilettantes with teaching skills should replace professors, just that more lower-level courses should be taught by them...in upper-level college coursework the premium from having a true expert, who is actively engaged in relevant research, teaching the class goes up exponentially)On the other hand, I've also had instructors in all fields who could perfectly well handle teaching as long as they stuck exactly to the curriculum, but who if asked a complicated why-question would blubber about and get it totally wrong.
Their knowledge of what they were doing was cursory, not deep, and this did pedagogical harm to their students, all of whom finished the class believing false things because the teacher just didn't know their field.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382894</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382066</id>
	<title>Teachers Unions</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267904340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Cue the paid teacher's union shills.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Cue the paid teacher 's union shills .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Cue the paid teacher's union shills.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382986</id>
	<title>Re:Science Technology and Math Teachers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267866840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Older teachers aren't necessarily set in their ways, but many have been around for long enough to see that all the fad teaching that's going on doesn't work. They may also have found very good ways to reach their students over the years. That isn't to say that there aren't teachers who should retire because they are indeed unwilling to learn new things. I've seen first hand that many teachers are simply jaded because even when they do learn new methods for teaching they are often not allowed to implement or try them as they may not fit the district wide curriculum, the materials the districts have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars on, etc.</p><p>It should also be noted that pretty much anything coming out of the DoE and the Congress should be universally ignored. As we can see directly from NCLB what these groups have done is put money into the pockets of their cronies at the expense of the nations students. They have also made teaching into such an undesirable position that you have a combination of totally dedicated teachers and those that can't/won't do anything else. I'll let you figure out which group is larger. The other thing that was completely broken about NCLB was that it was created by people that had never spent any time in a classroom, as well as those that hadn't been in a classroom for twenty years. These people are completely out of touch with what the needs of students actually are, as well as the problems that current teachers actually face. Anything coming out of either of these groups should be considered suspect until proven otherwise.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Older teachers are n't necessarily set in their ways , but many have been around for long enough to see that all the fad teaching that 's going on does n't work .
They may also have found very good ways to reach their students over the years .
That is n't to say that there are n't teachers who should retire because they are indeed unwilling to learn new things .
I 've seen first hand that many teachers are simply jaded because even when they do learn new methods for teaching they are often not allowed to implement or try them as they may not fit the district wide curriculum , the materials the districts have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars on , etc.It should also be noted that pretty much anything coming out of the DoE and the Congress should be universally ignored .
As we can see directly from NCLB what these groups have done is put money into the pockets of their cronies at the expense of the nations students .
They have also made teaching into such an undesirable position that you have a combination of totally dedicated teachers and those that ca n't/wo n't do anything else .
I 'll let you figure out which group is larger .
The other thing that was completely broken about NCLB was that it was created by people that had never spent any time in a classroom , as well as those that had n't been in a classroom for twenty years .
These people are completely out of touch with what the needs of students actually are , as well as the problems that current teachers actually face .
Anything coming out of either of these groups should be considered suspect until proven otherwise .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Older teachers aren't necessarily set in their ways, but many have been around for long enough to see that all the fad teaching that's going on doesn't work.
They may also have found very good ways to reach their students over the years.
That isn't to say that there aren't teachers who should retire because they are indeed unwilling to learn new things.
I've seen first hand that many teachers are simply jaded because even when they do learn new methods for teaching they are often not allowed to implement or try them as they may not fit the district wide curriculum, the materials the districts have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars on, etc.It should also be noted that pretty much anything coming out of the DoE and the Congress should be universally ignored.
As we can see directly from NCLB what these groups have done is put money into the pockets of their cronies at the expense of the nations students.
They have also made teaching into such an undesirable position that you have a combination of totally dedicated teachers and those that can't/won't do anything else.
I'll let you figure out which group is larger.
The other thing that was completely broken about NCLB was that it was created by people that had never spent any time in a classroom, as well as those that hadn't been in a classroom for twenty years.
These people are completely out of touch with what the needs of students actually are, as well as the problems that current teachers actually face.
Anything coming out of either of these groups should be considered suspect until proven otherwise.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382152</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31385652</id>
	<title>Re:overwhelming social and economic forces</title>
	<author>nxtw</author>
	<datestamp>1267887840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Around here, the best suburban districts get less money per student than the national and state averages or the nearby urban districts...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Around here , the best suburban districts get less money per student than the national and state averages or the nearby urban districts.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Around here, the best suburban districts get less money per student than the national and state averages or the nearby urban districts...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31384824</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382894</id>
	<title>Not So Fast</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267866240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>       Teachers can not be fairly judged by the success of their students. We know as an absolute fact that the wealth of the student's home is by far the major factor in the students success. Sadly that happens to equate with race in many areas of our nation. In the end it boils down to schools with poor testing results being filled with students drenched in deep poverty and lack of opportunities in their early years. The schools can do very little to repair these children. Kids who do not see their parents reading books in their very early years will never tend to read themselves. By first grade the permanent damage is done.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The second way to test a teacher is also not good. If you test an English teacher on his English knowledge he may test poorly but he just might be intensely skilled in the narrow knowledge needed to teach his eight grade English class and he might be the type of teacher that gets through to the students.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Compounding this problem are situations in which a school draws a small number of very poor students but has a large majority of students from affluent homes. I know a teacher right now who gives a female fifth grade student lots of attention and good grades because she knows the girl can become really violent. The girl is in the fifth grade! Before you think that is nonsense consider that these young kids are known to shoot teachers. Gifted students will not receive the attention that the troubled child gets. Yet 90\% of that school comes from affluent families.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Teachers can not be fairly judged by the success of their students .
We know as an absolute fact that the wealth of the student 's home is by far the major factor in the students success .
Sadly that happens to equate with race in many areas of our nation .
In the end it boils down to schools with poor testing results being filled with students drenched in deep poverty and lack of opportunities in their early years .
The schools can do very little to repair these children .
Kids who do not see their parents reading books in their very early years will never tend to read themselves .
By first grade the permanent damage is done .
              The second way to test a teacher is also not good .
If you test an English teacher on his English knowledge he may test poorly but he just might be intensely skilled in the narrow knowledge needed to teach his eight grade English class and he might be the type of teacher that gets through to the students .
              Compounding this problem are situations in which a school draws a small number of very poor students but has a large majority of students from affluent homes .
I know a teacher right now who gives a female fifth grade student lots of attention and good grades because she knows the girl can become really violent .
The girl is in the fifth grade !
Before you think that is nonsense consider that these young kids are known to shoot teachers .
Gifted students will not receive the attention that the troubled child gets .
Yet 90 \ % of that school comes from affluent families .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>       Teachers can not be fairly judged by the success of their students.
We know as an absolute fact that the wealth of the student's home is by far the major factor in the students success.
Sadly that happens to equate with race in many areas of our nation.
In the end it boils down to schools with poor testing results being filled with students drenched in deep poverty and lack of opportunities in their early years.
The schools can do very little to repair these children.
Kids who do not see their parents reading books in their very early years will never tend to read themselves.
By first grade the permanent damage is done.
              The second way to test a teacher is also not good.
If you test an English teacher on his English knowledge he may test poorly but he just might be intensely skilled in the narrow knowledge needed to teach his eight grade English class and he might be the type of teacher that gets through to the students.
              Compounding this problem are situations in which a school draws a small number of very poor students but has a large majority of students from affluent homes.
I know a teacher right now who gives a female fifth grade student lots of attention and good grades because she knows the girl can become really violent.
The girl is in the fifth grade!
Before you think that is nonsense consider that these young kids are known to shoot teachers.
Gifted students will not receive the attention that the troubled child gets.
Yet 90\% of that school comes from affluent families.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31416798</id>
	<title>Definitions of "good"?</title>
	<author>meridoc</author>
	<datestamp>1268162580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Part of this "improving teachers" problem is that there's no good definition of what a "good" teacher does.  Do they know their material?  Are they effective communicators?  Are they empathetic?  Do they help their students pass the state tests (and each state has their own state tests)?</p><p>As a teacher, I try to emulate my favorite teachers: the 8th grade geography teacher who, through his personal stories of growing up in our small town, taught us how to be good human beings, as well as the most amazing acrostics to memorize nations and capitols; the 12th grade English teacher who taught us everything from Sir Gwain and the Green Knight to "Death of a Salesman" and the occasional university class, and had a collection of stuffed plushie sheep, the 12th grade physics teacher who showed Penn and Teller movies to debunk magic, measured the speed of light from the exit sign, and created the legends of lab-destroying pixies.  Two of these teachers are gone, one frustrated by the administration, one frustrated by fellow teachers (who didn't have her teaching abilities and sued the district to make her share her classes).</p><p>As amazing as these teachers are/were, I don't know if I would have passed a state test (which hadn't yet been created) with that material.  Would the teachers have been thrown out for my poor performance?</p><p>Additionally, having students be responsible for whether a teacher remains/gets higher pay is insane. The student has no incentive to pass most state tests (most states still don't require passing scores to graduate), so effort isn't rewarded.  Evaluations of teachers should be done by teachers who have no direct influence on each other (the NYTimes opinions mention a system in Indiana that sounds good).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Part of this " improving teachers " problem is that there 's no good definition of what a " good " teacher does .
Do they know their material ?
Are they effective communicators ?
Are they empathetic ?
Do they help their students pass the state tests ( and each state has their own state tests ) ? As a teacher , I try to emulate my favorite teachers : the 8th grade geography teacher who , through his personal stories of growing up in our small town , taught us how to be good human beings , as well as the most amazing acrostics to memorize nations and capitols ; the 12th grade English teacher who taught us everything from Sir Gwain and the Green Knight to " Death of a Salesman " and the occasional university class , and had a collection of stuffed plushie sheep , the 12th grade physics teacher who showed Penn and Teller movies to debunk magic , measured the speed of light from the exit sign , and created the legends of lab-destroying pixies .
Two of these teachers are gone , one frustrated by the administration , one frustrated by fellow teachers ( who did n't have her teaching abilities and sued the district to make her share her classes ) .As amazing as these teachers are/were , I do n't know if I would have passed a state test ( which had n't yet been created ) with that material .
Would the teachers have been thrown out for my poor performance ? Additionally , having students be responsible for whether a teacher remains/gets higher pay is insane .
The student has no incentive to pass most state tests ( most states still do n't require passing scores to graduate ) , so effort is n't rewarded .
Evaluations of teachers should be done by teachers who have no direct influence on each other ( the NYTimes opinions mention a system in Indiana that sounds good ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Part of this "improving teachers" problem is that there's no good definition of what a "good" teacher does.
Do they know their material?
Are they effective communicators?
Are they empathetic?
Do they help their students pass the state tests (and each state has their own state tests)?As a teacher, I try to emulate my favorite teachers: the 8th grade geography teacher who, through his personal stories of growing up in our small town, taught us how to be good human beings, as well as the most amazing acrostics to memorize nations and capitols; the 12th grade English teacher who taught us everything from Sir Gwain and the Green Knight to "Death of a Salesman" and the occasional university class, and had a collection of stuffed plushie sheep, the 12th grade physics teacher who showed Penn and Teller movies to debunk magic, measured the speed of light from the exit sign, and created the legends of lab-destroying pixies.
Two of these teachers are gone, one frustrated by the administration, one frustrated by fellow teachers (who didn't have her teaching abilities and sued the district to make her share her classes).As amazing as these teachers are/were, I don't know if I would have passed a state test (which hadn't yet been created) with that material.
Would the teachers have been thrown out for my poor performance?Additionally, having students be responsible for whether a teacher remains/gets higher pay is insane.
The student has no incentive to pass most state tests (most states still don't require passing scores to graduate), so effort isn't rewarded.
Evaluations of teachers should be done by teachers who have no direct influence on each other (the NYTimes opinions mention a system in Indiana that sounds good).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31383146</id>
	<title>Re:You can't teach students that don't want to lea</title>
	<author>DigiShaman</author>
	<datestamp>1267867800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Then teachers are doing it wrong. It's their *job* to provide students the passion to learn. It's also the role of the parents as well. No amount of money can solve this because it's a social problem, not a financial one.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Then teachers are doing it wrong .
It 's their * job * to provide students the passion to learn .
It 's also the role of the parents as well .
No amount of money can solve this because it 's a social problem , not a financial one .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Then teachers are doing it wrong.
It's their *job* to provide students the passion to learn.
It's also the role of the parents as well.
No amount of money can solve this because it's a social problem, not a financial one.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382110</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31385306</id>
	<title>Re:New Approach</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267885020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What if instead of taking one route or the other, we take the middle patch?</p><p>Get rid of both the bad teachers and student. Or, and this may be crazy but I think it's smart, let the bad students into vocational studies early.</p><p>I understand the need for diversification of our youth so they can see what options there are, but really. Not everyone is cut out for reading, riting, and rithmetic. (Fuck you three Rs, you're part of the problem of why kids can't spell.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What if instead of taking one route or the other , we take the middle patch ? Get rid of both the bad teachers and student .
Or , and this may be crazy but I think it 's smart , let the bad students into vocational studies early.I understand the need for diversification of our youth so they can see what options there are , but really .
Not everyone is cut out for reading , riting , and rithmetic .
( Fuck you three Rs , you 're part of the problem of why kids ca n't spell .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What if instead of taking one route or the other, we take the middle patch?Get rid of both the bad teachers and student.
Or, and this may be crazy but I think it's smart, let the bad students into vocational studies early.I understand the need for diversification of our youth so they can see what options there are, but really.
Not everyone is cut out for reading, riting, and rithmetic.
(Fuck you three Rs, you're part of the problem of why kids can't spell.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382712</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382912</id>
	<title>Re:Better teachers and more funding !</title>
	<author>xaxa</author>
	<datestamp>1267866360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The only way to force the teachers to get better at the public schools is to open up more competition.</p></div><p>(I'm not American, and bad teachers do lose their jobs in this country.)</p><p>If the problem is the teaching unions then there is another solution: fix the problem anyway. Be firm with the teaching unions.</p><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK\_miners'\_strike\_(1984&ndash;1985)" title="wikipedia.org">The UK miners' strike</a> [wikipedia.org] is an extreme example. If it's really is genuinely underperforming teachers that lose their jobs there won't be much support from other teachers anyway... will there?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The only way to force the teachers to get better at the public schools is to open up more competition .
( I 'm not American , and bad teachers do lose their jobs in this country .
) If the problem is the teaching unions then there is another solution : fix the problem anyway .
Be firm with the teaching unions.The UK miners ' strike [ wikipedia.org ] is an extreme example .
If it 's really is genuinely underperforming teachers that lose their jobs there wo n't be much support from other teachers anyway... will there ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The only way to force the teachers to get better at the public schools is to open up more competition.
(I'm not American, and bad teachers do lose their jobs in this country.
)If the problem is the teaching unions then there is another solution: fix the problem anyway.
Be firm with the teaching unions.The UK miners' strike [wikipedia.org] is an extreme example.
If it's really is genuinely underperforming teachers that lose their jobs there won't be much support from other teachers anyway... will there?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382282</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31385844</id>
	<title>Politics and bureaucracy are to blame</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267889880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My wife was a 5th grade teacher, an excellent one at that, for two years in Texas at an exemplary rated school.  There are many problems with education, but I will mention a few in her day to day.</p><p>1. No control over discipline in the classroom.  Only positive reinforcement crap was allowed.  If a child was acting out, she wasn't even allowed to move the child to a different part of the room.  Her school ran with a "card" program.  If a child was disrupting a class, the only thing she was allowed to do was "pull their card."  This consisted of her having to take the time to fill out paperwork log the incident, and force the child to have the card signed by their parents.  There was no sending the child to the principal, in fact there was virtually no administrative support of any kind when it came to discipline.  Problem children were babied and forgiven.  Even if the child brought their card home to get signed, often the parents signed it and offered no discipline at home, which is probably the intent of the card system to begin with.  This leads to the next issue, Parents.</p><p>2. Parents are just as much a part of the education process as the child and the teacher.  We have developed a culture where people, especially children, are weakly held accountable to their actions.  I cannot tell you how many times my wife had a problem child, and the parents threw their hands up in the air.  Either they didn't have the time to discipline their children, or they throw their hands up in the air professing to her that they don't know what to do!  We don't let teachers discipline the defiant children, administrators attempt to defer it to the parents, the parents don't do anything because their little angle is innocent and the child continues to be disruptive to the education process.</p><p>3. I can't say this for all schools, but at my wife's school, she had zero creative freedom on how to present material.  All material was to be presented exactly the same way in every class to every child, and that presentation is created by some company off on the other side of the country.  My wife was required to tutor children [that were failing] outside of classroom hours, uncompensated.  Even if she did have the freedom to develop curriculum, she wouldnt have the time.  Her school organized 3-4 meetings daily [mostly due to bureaucratic bs], and she had 15 min to eat lunch if she wasn't on lunch duty.  If she wasn't on lunch duty she was on recess duty.</p><p>4. This leads to the hours.  Most everyone here is a techie, and most techies have experienced crunch.  In order to be an okay teacher you were expected 12 hour days.  To be considered a good teacher it was closer to 16 hour days.  "But teachers get a whole summer off... blah... blah... blah".  You try working 9 months straight of 16 hour days.  If you broke down the hours worked against her salary, she was making less than minimum wage.  Tell me you are going to be on top of your game when you crunch that much.  Oh and in those summers there are mandatory workshops and more meetings.</p><p>5. The standardized tests.  This is another politicians brain child.  First we pack the classrooms full (25-30 kids) of wide aptitudes.  My wife's school had 1 specialist for all the children in her grade level that had a learning disability or behavioral disability.  Then we tell all these schools that they have to hit such and such a mark on these standardized tests (which are not all that standardized by the way).  The school then tells the teacher if their classroom doesn't hit a specific average, then they are put onto probation or will be fired (in Texas there was no teachers union).  Teachers are forced to teach to the test.</p><p>This is just a handful of the issues going on in the school, but let's sum up what we have so far.  We pack the classrooms to overflowing levels with students.  We expect teachers to handle all learning disabilities and behavioral issues, and we give them little to no support to do their job.  They have little creative freedom in developing the curriculu</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My wife was a 5th grade teacher , an excellent one at that , for two years in Texas at an exemplary rated school .
There are many problems with education , but I will mention a few in her day to day.1 .
No control over discipline in the classroom .
Only positive reinforcement crap was allowed .
If a child was acting out , she was n't even allowed to move the child to a different part of the room .
Her school ran with a " card " program .
If a child was disrupting a class , the only thing she was allowed to do was " pull their card .
" This consisted of her having to take the time to fill out paperwork log the incident , and force the child to have the card signed by their parents .
There was no sending the child to the principal , in fact there was virtually no administrative support of any kind when it came to discipline .
Problem children were babied and forgiven .
Even if the child brought their card home to get signed , often the parents signed it and offered no discipline at home , which is probably the intent of the card system to begin with .
This leads to the next issue , Parents.2 .
Parents are just as much a part of the education process as the child and the teacher .
We have developed a culture where people , especially children , are weakly held accountable to their actions .
I can not tell you how many times my wife had a problem child , and the parents threw their hands up in the air .
Either they did n't have the time to discipline their children , or they throw their hands up in the air professing to her that they do n't know what to do !
We do n't let teachers discipline the defiant children , administrators attempt to defer it to the parents , the parents do n't do anything because their little angle is innocent and the child continues to be disruptive to the education process.3 .
I ca n't say this for all schools , but at my wife 's school , she had zero creative freedom on how to present material .
All material was to be presented exactly the same way in every class to every child , and that presentation is created by some company off on the other side of the country .
My wife was required to tutor children [ that were failing ] outside of classroom hours , uncompensated .
Even if she did have the freedom to develop curriculum , she wouldnt have the time .
Her school organized 3-4 meetings daily [ mostly due to bureaucratic bs ] , and she had 15 min to eat lunch if she was n't on lunch duty .
If she was n't on lunch duty she was on recess duty.4 .
This leads to the hours .
Most everyone here is a techie , and most techies have experienced crunch .
In order to be an okay teacher you were expected 12 hour days .
To be considered a good teacher it was closer to 16 hour days .
" But teachers get a whole summer off... blah... blah... blah " . You try working 9 months straight of 16 hour days .
If you broke down the hours worked against her salary , she was making less than minimum wage .
Tell me you are going to be on top of your game when you crunch that much .
Oh and in those summers there are mandatory workshops and more meetings.5 .
The standardized tests .
This is another politicians brain child .
First we pack the classrooms full ( 25-30 kids ) of wide aptitudes .
My wife 's school had 1 specialist for all the children in her grade level that had a learning disability or behavioral disability .
Then we tell all these schools that they have to hit such and such a mark on these standardized tests ( which are not all that standardized by the way ) .
The school then tells the teacher if their classroom does n't hit a specific average , then they are put onto probation or will be fired ( in Texas there was no teachers union ) .
Teachers are forced to teach to the test.This is just a handful of the issues going on in the school , but let 's sum up what we have so far .
We pack the classrooms to overflowing levels with students .
We expect teachers to handle all learning disabilities and behavioral issues , and we give them little to no support to do their job .
They have little creative freedom in developing the curriculu</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My wife was a 5th grade teacher, an excellent one at that, for two years in Texas at an exemplary rated school.
There are many problems with education, but I will mention a few in her day to day.1.
No control over discipline in the classroom.
Only positive reinforcement crap was allowed.
If a child was acting out, she wasn't even allowed to move the child to a different part of the room.
Her school ran with a "card" program.
If a child was disrupting a class, the only thing she was allowed to do was "pull their card.
"  This consisted of her having to take the time to fill out paperwork log the incident, and force the child to have the card signed by their parents.
There was no sending the child to the principal, in fact there was virtually no administrative support of any kind when it came to discipline.
Problem children were babied and forgiven.
Even if the child brought their card home to get signed, often the parents signed it and offered no discipline at home, which is probably the intent of the card system to begin with.
This leads to the next issue, Parents.2.
Parents are just as much a part of the education process as the child and the teacher.
We have developed a culture where people, especially children, are weakly held accountable to their actions.
I cannot tell you how many times my wife had a problem child, and the parents threw their hands up in the air.
Either they didn't have the time to discipline their children, or they throw their hands up in the air professing to her that they don't know what to do!
We don't let teachers discipline the defiant children, administrators attempt to defer it to the parents, the parents don't do anything because their little angle is innocent and the child continues to be disruptive to the education process.3.
I can't say this for all schools, but at my wife's school, she had zero creative freedom on how to present material.
All material was to be presented exactly the same way in every class to every child, and that presentation is created by some company off on the other side of the country.
My wife was required to tutor children [that were failing] outside of classroom hours, uncompensated.
Even if she did have the freedom to develop curriculum, she wouldnt have the time.
Her school organized 3-4 meetings daily [mostly due to bureaucratic bs], and she had 15 min to eat lunch if she wasn't on lunch duty.
If she wasn't on lunch duty she was on recess duty.4.
This leads to the hours.
Most everyone here is a techie, and most techies have experienced crunch.
In order to be an okay teacher you were expected 12 hour days.
To be considered a good teacher it was closer to 16 hour days.
"But teachers get a whole summer off... blah... blah... blah".  You try working 9 months straight of 16 hour days.
If you broke down the hours worked against her salary, she was making less than minimum wage.
Tell me you are going to be on top of your game when you crunch that much.
Oh and in those summers there are mandatory workshops and more meetings.5.
The standardized tests.
This is another politicians brain child.
First we pack the classrooms full (25-30 kids) of wide aptitudes.
My wife's school had 1 specialist for all the children in her grade level that had a learning disability or behavioral disability.
Then we tell all these schools that they have to hit such and such a mark on these standardized tests (which are not all that standardized by the way).
The school then tells the teacher if their classroom doesn't hit a specific average, then they are put onto probation or will be fired (in Texas there was no teachers union).
Teachers are forced to teach to the test.This is just a handful of the issues going on in the school, but let's sum up what we have so far.
We pack the classrooms to overflowing levels with students.
We expect teachers to handle all learning disabilities and behavioral issues, and we give them little to no support to do their job.
They have little creative freedom in developing the curriculu</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31386308</id>
	<title>Newsflash: Ed. equality: not coming anytime soon</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267894620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The thing is, it is much easier to blame the teacher than to question the entire system itself. To question the meritocracy means questioning our own privilege within it, and who wants to do that? Better to just ignore those nagging doubts that maybe, just maybe, there is something seriously wrong with the whole thing. I mean, how many studies have to show the strong correlation between income and high test scores. Are those rich people just that much smarter than the rest of us, or is there a system (including the makeup of the "standard" tests) that actually strives to pass on privilege to their young ones under the banner of legitimacy.<br><a href="http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/sat-scores-and-family-income/" title="nytimes.com" rel="nofollow">http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/sat-scores-and-family-income/</a> [nytimes.com]</p><p>Let's be honest, the bad teacher argument is really a proxy for firing experienced teachers and hiring cheaper (not better) ones. And vouchers and charter schools are simply attempts to divert attention from, rather than actually fix, the massive disparity that is public education. Education is used to sort people in society and therefore no one is talking about real equality.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The thing is , it is much easier to blame the teacher than to question the entire system itself .
To question the meritocracy means questioning our own privilege within it , and who wants to do that ?
Better to just ignore those nagging doubts that maybe , just maybe , there is something seriously wrong with the whole thing .
I mean , how many studies have to show the strong correlation between income and high test scores .
Are those rich people just that much smarter than the rest of us , or is there a system ( including the makeup of the " standard " tests ) that actually strives to pass on privilege to their young ones under the banner of legitimacy.http : //economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/sat-scores-and-family-income/ [ nytimes.com ] Let 's be honest , the bad teacher argument is really a proxy for firing experienced teachers and hiring cheaper ( not better ) ones .
And vouchers and charter schools are simply attempts to divert attention from , rather than actually fix , the massive disparity that is public education .
Education is used to sort people in society and therefore no one is talking about real equality .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The thing is, it is much easier to blame the teacher than to question the entire system itself.
To question the meritocracy means questioning our own privilege within it, and who wants to do that?
Better to just ignore those nagging doubts that maybe, just maybe, there is something seriously wrong with the whole thing.
I mean, how many studies have to show the strong correlation between income and high test scores.
Are those rich people just that much smarter than the rest of us, or is there a system (including the makeup of the "standard" tests) that actually strives to pass on privilege to their young ones under the banner of legitimacy.http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/27/sat-scores-and-family-income/ [nytimes.com]Let's be honest, the bad teacher argument is really a proxy for firing experienced teachers and hiring cheaper (not better) ones.
And vouchers and charter schools are simply attempts to divert attention from, rather than actually fix, the massive disparity that is public education.
Education is used to sort people in society and therefore no one is talking about real equality.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31383608</id>
	<title>Re:Better teachers and more funding !</title>
	<author>Phoobarnvaz</author>
	<datestamp>1267870980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Not having read all the responses...but several years of being in classrooms as a substitute teacher...long-term/short-term...no one has mentioned the biggest problem in the classroom. It's the parents...with bad teachers coming in a distant second. You wonder why you have bad teachers...look at what they have to put up with on a daily basis. You have parents who will sue at the drop of a hat if they don't get their way every time. If you don't bend over backwards for their "little dem...angels"...you end up with endless grief. If their "little dem...angels" don't get their way...you end up with endless grief. I have been physically/verbally attacked in the classroom by these "little dem...angels". Had the principal &amp; police physically carry out the student.<br> <br>

You wonder why anyone will put up with this behavior. For all those teachers who have been there 5/10/20 years...how many teachers just gave up after their first/second/third year from being assaulted right and left from anyone with an axe to grind? Only professional football players last longer at their job (average four years) than many teachers (average three years). If you had to deal with these "little dem...angels" on a daily basis with their bad behavior at your private sector job...chances are you wouldn't put up with it...but would have no problem going after a teacher who has to put up with it from your child by showing they aren't God's gift to the universe or they are the most perfect child.<br> <br>

You want to change teachers &amp; schools...do as Jesus commanded..."Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Recognize your children are not the "little angels" they are claiming to be and ask yourself why the teacher is having a problem with your child. If the child doesn't recognize now they're not "special" by not being an obnoxious jerk...the bosses at their numerous low-paying jobs will make sure they recognize it and take appropriate action to make sure they understand this.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Not having read all the responses...but several years of being in classrooms as a substitute teacher...long-term/short-term...no one has mentioned the biggest problem in the classroom .
It 's the parents...with bad teachers coming in a distant second .
You wonder why you have bad teachers...look at what they have to put up with on a daily basis .
You have parents who will sue at the drop of a hat if they do n't get their way every time .
If you do n't bend over backwards for their " little dem...angels " ...you end up with endless grief .
If their " little dem...angels " do n't get their way...you end up with endless grief .
I have been physically/verbally attacked in the classroom by these " little dem...angels " .
Had the principal &amp; police physically carry out the student .
You wonder why anyone will put up with this behavior .
For all those teachers who have been there 5/10/20 years...how many teachers just gave up after their first/second/third year from being assaulted right and left from anyone with an axe to grind ?
Only professional football players last longer at their job ( average four years ) than many teachers ( average three years ) .
If you had to deal with these " little dem...angels " on a daily basis with their bad behavior at your private sector job...chances are you would n't put up with it...but would have no problem going after a teacher who has to put up with it from your child by showing they are n't God 's gift to the universe or they are the most perfect child .
You want to change teachers &amp; schools...do as Jesus commanded... " Do unto others as you would have them do unto you " .
Recognize your children are not the " little angels " they are claiming to be and ask yourself why the teacher is having a problem with your child .
If the child does n't recognize now they 're not " special " by not being an obnoxious jerk...the bosses at their numerous low-paying jobs will make sure they recognize it and take appropriate action to make sure they understand this .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not having read all the responses...but several years of being in classrooms as a substitute teacher...long-term/short-term...no one has mentioned the biggest problem in the classroom.
It's the parents...with bad teachers coming in a distant second.
You wonder why you have bad teachers...look at what they have to put up with on a daily basis.
You have parents who will sue at the drop of a hat if they don't get their way every time.
If you don't bend over backwards for their "little dem...angels"...you end up with endless grief.
If their "little dem...angels" don't get their way...you end up with endless grief.
I have been physically/verbally attacked in the classroom by these "little dem...angels".
Had the principal &amp; police physically carry out the student.
You wonder why anyone will put up with this behavior.
For all those teachers who have been there 5/10/20 years...how many teachers just gave up after their first/second/third year from being assaulted right and left from anyone with an axe to grind?
Only professional football players last longer at their job (average four years) than many teachers (average three years).
If you had to deal with these "little dem...angels" on a daily basis with their bad behavior at your private sector job...chances are you wouldn't put up with it...but would have no problem going after a teacher who has to put up with it from your child by showing they aren't God's gift to the universe or they are the most perfect child.
You want to change teachers &amp; schools...do as Jesus commanded..."Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".
Recognize your children are not the "little angels" they are claiming to be and ask yourself why the teacher is having a problem with your child.
If the child doesn't recognize now they're not "special" by not being an obnoxious jerk...the bosses at their numerous low-paying jobs will make sure they recognize it and take appropriate action to make sure they understand this.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382282</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31385842</id>
	<title>Re:New Approach</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267889880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>you can't just 'get rid of them'... you have to change the environment so they rarely exist.</p><p>i agree with an earlier comment where someone said the first 3 years of a individuals education needs to be more militant; children need to be taught that to learn is their job--for the first 18 years of their lives, and that they need to be as responsible as children as they're expected to be as adults... that means being respectful of other students responsibility to learn as well and being productive students themselves.</p><p>school is usually a far too relaxed social environment... being a class clown is often encouraged by other students. being a clown at lunch break or before or after school is fine, but when a class is actively being taught it should be known by the students as a criminal offense, and some consequence should be put into place to discourage it.</p><p>yes, i realize learning needs to be fun at times too, but from the teachers side of the equation fun learning time should be scheduled to more realistically resemble the work place lifestyle the children should be prepared for. i've seen very few teenagers make the adaption to the working adult world easily. usually the change between their school life and the working life and personal responsibilities are so dramatic that they easily become dunks, or drug users, or they merely spend years depressed because they don't know what to do about not being able to cope with the change.</p><p>learning can't always be fun anymore then you can always eat cake... i mean you can get away with it for a while, but eventually any system in place that doesn't adhere to reality will fail. maybe parents should pay a tax that get's returned to them based on their child's educational productivity, but get's paid through the student so they can feel they're getting paid for their work. "today you earned 10 dollars doing quality work at school, the book you just purchased with your parents cost $9.99. you earned the privilege of enjoying that book!"</p><p>a lot of people would say this is already the parents job, and that they can already do this, some probably do, but then i would argue that later in life it wont be a parent paying their child for their work, and it wont be their parent that scolds them lovingly if they don't succeed at producing quality work. it'll be some stranger who could care very little about the ability of the worker to feed themselves and just fires them for being a slacker.</p><p>i don't necessarily agree with the harshness that can occur within the working world nowadays, but it's there... and as long as it is our children should be well prepared for it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>you ca n't just 'get rid of them'... you have to change the environment so they rarely exist.i agree with an earlier comment where someone said the first 3 years of a individuals education needs to be more militant ; children need to be taught that to learn is their job--for the first 18 years of their lives , and that they need to be as responsible as children as they 're expected to be as adults... that means being respectful of other students responsibility to learn as well and being productive students themselves.school is usually a far too relaxed social environment... being a class clown is often encouraged by other students .
being a clown at lunch break or before or after school is fine , but when a class is actively being taught it should be known by the students as a criminal offense , and some consequence should be put into place to discourage it.yes , i realize learning needs to be fun at times too , but from the teachers side of the equation fun learning time should be scheduled to more realistically resemble the work place lifestyle the children should be prepared for .
i 've seen very few teenagers make the adaption to the working adult world easily .
usually the change between their school life and the working life and personal responsibilities are so dramatic that they easily become dunks , or drug users , or they merely spend years depressed because they do n't know what to do about not being able to cope with the change.learning ca n't always be fun anymore then you can always eat cake... i mean you can get away with it for a while , but eventually any system in place that does n't adhere to reality will fail .
maybe parents should pay a tax that get 's returned to them based on their child 's educational productivity , but get 's paid through the student so they can feel they 're getting paid for their work .
" today you earned 10 dollars doing quality work at school , the book you just purchased with your parents cost $ 9.99 .
you earned the privilege of enjoying that book !
" a lot of people would say this is already the parents job , and that they can already do this , some probably do , but then i would argue that later in life it wont be a parent paying their child for their work , and it wont be their parent that scolds them lovingly if they do n't succeed at producing quality work .
it 'll be some stranger who could care very little about the ability of the worker to feed themselves and just fires them for being a slacker.i do n't necessarily agree with the harshness that can occur within the working world nowadays , but it 's there... and as long as it is our children should be well prepared for it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>you can't just 'get rid of them'... you have to change the environment so they rarely exist.i agree with an earlier comment where someone said the first 3 years of a individuals education needs to be more militant; children need to be taught that to learn is their job--for the first 18 years of their lives, and that they need to be as responsible as children as they're expected to be as adults... that means being respectful of other students responsibility to learn as well and being productive students themselves.school is usually a far too relaxed social environment... being a class clown is often encouraged by other students.
being a clown at lunch break or before or after school is fine, but when a class is actively being taught it should be known by the students as a criminal offense, and some consequence should be put into place to discourage it.yes, i realize learning needs to be fun at times too, but from the teachers side of the equation fun learning time should be scheduled to more realistically resemble the work place lifestyle the children should be prepared for.
i've seen very few teenagers make the adaption to the working adult world easily.
usually the change between their school life and the working life and personal responsibilities are so dramatic that they easily become dunks, or drug users, or they merely spend years depressed because they don't know what to do about not being able to cope with the change.learning can't always be fun anymore then you can always eat cake... i mean you can get away with it for a while, but eventually any system in place that doesn't adhere to reality will fail.
maybe parents should pay a tax that get's returned to them based on their child's educational productivity, but get's paid through the student so they can feel they're getting paid for their work.
"today you earned 10 dollars doing quality work at school, the book you just purchased with your parents cost $9.99.
you earned the privilege of enjoying that book!
"a lot of people would say this is already the parents job, and that they can already do this, some probably do, but then i would argue that later in life it wont be a parent paying their child for their work, and it wont be their parent that scolds them lovingly if they don't succeed at producing quality work.
it'll be some stranger who could care very little about the ability of the worker to feed themselves and just fires them for being a slacker.i don't necessarily agree with the harshness that can occur within the working world nowadays, but it's there... and as long as it is our children should be well prepared for it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382712</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382778</id>
	<title>Re:People love to blame problems on teachers</title>
	<author>tukang</author>
	<datestamp>1267908600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Teachers love to blame problems on [parents|students|other scapegoat] because that way, no additional work or money is required by the complainer to solve the problem.
<p>Truth is there's plenty of blame to go around and teachers certainly deserve their fair share.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Teachers love to blame problems on [ parents | students | other scapegoat ] because that way , no additional work or money is required by the complainer to solve the problem .
Truth is there 's plenty of blame to go around and teachers certainly deserve their fair share .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Teachers love to blame problems on [parents|students|other scapegoat] because that way, no additional work or money is required by the complainer to solve the problem.
Truth is there's plenty of blame to go around and teachers certainly deserve their fair share.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382382</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31390122</id>
	<title>Re:overwhelming social and economic forces</title>
	<author>eyore15</author>
	<datestamp>1267979160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I teach High School English.  My Bachelor's and Master's are in English, with a minor in secondary education (BS) and educational technology MS).  Everyone in my department (18 teachers) has their major in English.  The same holds true for the rest of the school.  The school will not hire without a major in your subject matter.  We are not a "high end" school by any stretch of the imagination.  Dip your brush in the tar bucket if you wish, but be careful where you use that brush.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I teach High School English .
My Bachelor 's and Master 's are in English , with a minor in secondary education ( BS ) and educational technology MS ) .
Everyone in my department ( 18 teachers ) has their major in English .
The same holds true for the rest of the school .
The school will not hire without a major in your subject matter .
We are not a " high end " school by any stretch of the imagination .
Dip your brush in the tar bucket if you wish , but be careful where you use that brush .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I teach High School English.
My Bachelor's and Master's are in English, with a minor in secondary education (BS) and educational technology MS).
Everyone in my department (18 teachers) has their major in English.
The same holds true for the rest of the school.
The school will not hire without a major in your subject matter.
We are not a "high end" school by any stretch of the imagination.
Dip your brush in the tar bucket if you wish, but be careful where you use that brush.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382406</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31383526</id>
	<title>Re:Better teachers and more funding !</title>
	<author>Omestes</author>
	<datestamp>1267870500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Now, IF the hiring and firing of teachers worked like going to work at a private company then the spend more get better results method would not only work, it would have worked already. </i></p><p>Yes, doing a quick glance at the state of the economy, and the free market, shows that using private sector methods always leads to boons in performance...  It also shows that all pricing and pay irregularity will promptly go away (no 10,000\% CEO pay, or golden parachutes for under-performing).  Every time I deal with a large corporation, I leave the deal thinking "that was very efficient, dealing with 600 middle men, doing 5000 pages of superfluous paper work, and having to sign my immortal soul away to cover said companies ass, man I'm glad that the people who do the actual work are making barely minimum wage".</p><p>No, modeling anything after corporate America will not make it better.</p><p><i>The public teachers' union HATES vouchers though, so it's really hard to get such systems implemented.</i></p><p>I am not a member of a teachers union, and I hate the idea.  I hate the idea because in practice my tax dollars gets to get squandered on people giving their children a religious education (which isn't really much of an education).  Where I live, a significant portion of the charter and private schools are thinly veiled schools for Evangelical Christians.  A lot of them are even run by the same people who run the mega-churches.  As someone who likes the Establishment Clause, I have a serious problem with funding other people's religious dogma.</p><p>That and no study I have read actual says that charter schools perform better than public ones, outside of college prep academies.  Until there are statistics proving that their is a significant difference, I would rather not use more of my tax money making private corporations rich.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Now , IF the hiring and firing of teachers worked like going to work at a private company then the spend more get better results method would not only work , it would have worked already .
Yes , doing a quick glance at the state of the economy , and the free market , shows that using private sector methods always leads to boons in performance... It also shows that all pricing and pay irregularity will promptly go away ( no 10,000 \ % CEO pay , or golden parachutes for under-performing ) .
Every time I deal with a large corporation , I leave the deal thinking " that was very efficient , dealing with 600 middle men , doing 5000 pages of superfluous paper work , and having to sign my immortal soul away to cover said companies ass , man I 'm glad that the people who do the actual work are making barely minimum wage " .No , modeling anything after corporate America will not make it better.The public teachers ' union HATES vouchers though , so it 's really hard to get such systems implemented.I am not a member of a teachers union , and I hate the idea .
I hate the idea because in practice my tax dollars gets to get squandered on people giving their children a religious education ( which is n't really much of an education ) .
Where I live , a significant portion of the charter and private schools are thinly veiled schools for Evangelical Christians .
A lot of them are even run by the same people who run the mega-churches .
As someone who likes the Establishment Clause , I have a serious problem with funding other people 's religious dogma.That and no study I have read actual says that charter schools perform better than public ones , outside of college prep academies .
Until there are statistics proving that their is a significant difference , I would rather not use more of my tax money making private corporations rich .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Now, IF the hiring and firing of teachers worked like going to work at a private company then the spend more get better results method would not only work, it would have worked already.
Yes, doing a quick glance at the state of the economy, and the free market, shows that using private sector methods always leads to boons in performance...  It also shows that all pricing and pay irregularity will promptly go away (no 10,000\% CEO pay, or golden parachutes for under-performing).
Every time I deal with a large corporation, I leave the deal thinking "that was very efficient, dealing with 600 middle men, doing 5000 pages of superfluous paper work, and having to sign my immortal soul away to cover said companies ass, man I'm glad that the people who do the actual work are making barely minimum wage".No, modeling anything after corporate America will not make it better.The public teachers' union HATES vouchers though, so it's really hard to get such systems implemented.I am not a member of a teachers union, and I hate the idea.
I hate the idea because in practice my tax dollars gets to get squandered on people giving their children a religious education (which isn't really much of an education).
Where I live, a significant portion of the charter and private schools are thinly veiled schools for Evangelical Christians.
A lot of them are even run by the same people who run the mega-churches.
As someone who likes the Establishment Clause, I have a serious problem with funding other people's religious dogma.That and no study I have read actual says that charter schools perform better than public ones, outside of college prep academies.
Until there are statistics proving that their is a significant difference, I would rather not use more of my tax money making private corporations rich.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382282</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382930</id>
	<title>Why teachers matter.</title>
	<author>jshurst1</author>
	<datestamp>1267866480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Former <a href="http://www.teachforamerica.org/" title="teachforamerica.org" rel="nofollow">Teach For America</a> [teachforamerica.org] high school computer science and math teacher here.  (I also taught at a school funded by the Bill &amp; Melinda Gates Foundation's <a href="http://www.hightechhigh.org/" title="hightechhigh.org" rel="nofollow">High Tech High</a> [hightechhigh.org] initiative noted in the summary.)

</p><p>First, some positive comments.  It's great to see studies like those mentioned in the Newsweek article attracting eyeballs in academia and the popular press.  The conclusions may seem to border on the tautological for most of us (great teachers are great at teaching!), but such ideas are largely verboten in the public school system.  If you haven't already RTFA, I'd suggest <a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/01/what-makes-a-great-teacher/7841/" title="theatlantic.com" rel="nofollow">The Atlantic's treatment</a> [theatlantic.com] of the same material.

</p><p>Anecdotally, I can fully corroborate Teach For America's data.  Both in my school as well as those of my TFA colleagues, teachers that continually pushed themselves to excel and improve in their craft were able to consistently produce jaw-dropping results in their students' test scores.  It really is amazing.  As an example, I co-taught a summer school pre-calculus class with another TFAer in Watts a few years ago.  We somehow managed to march through three years worth of material in those two months; our students went from being on average two grade levels behind to slightly above grade level.  I attribute this success to Teach For America's philosophy of teacher excellence (which is similar to 'kaizen' in many regards).

</p><p>The summary asks "What makes a good teacher?"  This is the wrong question.  There is no one thing that will make a teacher great (vibrant personality, deep subject knowledge, an M.S. Ed., etc.).  Rather, it is an <i>attitude</i> that is willing to try anything (and, conversely, promptly reject the ineffective) to make students succeed.  To use a math analogy, it is the second derivative that matters, not the current value or even the slope.

</p><p>Disclaimer: this post does not necessarily reflect the views of my former employers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Former Teach For America [ teachforamerica.org ] high school computer science and math teacher here .
( I also taught at a school funded by the Bill &amp; Melinda Gates Foundation 's High Tech High [ hightechhigh.org ] initiative noted in the summary .
) First , some positive comments .
It 's great to see studies like those mentioned in the Newsweek article attracting eyeballs in academia and the popular press .
The conclusions may seem to border on the tautological for most of us ( great teachers are great at teaching !
) , but such ideas are largely verboten in the public school system .
If you have n't already RTFA , I 'd suggest The Atlantic 's treatment [ theatlantic.com ] of the same material .
Anecdotally , I can fully corroborate Teach For America 's data .
Both in my school as well as those of my TFA colleagues , teachers that continually pushed themselves to excel and improve in their craft were able to consistently produce jaw-dropping results in their students ' test scores .
It really is amazing .
As an example , I co-taught a summer school pre-calculus class with another TFAer in Watts a few years ago .
We somehow managed to march through three years worth of material in those two months ; our students went from being on average two grade levels behind to slightly above grade level .
I attribute this success to Teach For America 's philosophy of teacher excellence ( which is similar to 'kaizen ' in many regards ) .
The summary asks " What makes a good teacher ?
" This is the wrong question .
There is no one thing that will make a teacher great ( vibrant personality , deep subject knowledge , an M.S .
Ed. , etc. ) .
Rather , it is an attitude that is willing to try anything ( and , conversely , promptly reject the ineffective ) to make students succeed .
To use a math analogy , it is the second derivative that matters , not the current value or even the slope .
Disclaimer : this post does not necessarily reflect the views of my former employers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Former Teach For America [teachforamerica.org] high school computer science and math teacher here.
(I also taught at a school funded by the Bill &amp; Melinda Gates Foundation's High Tech High [hightechhigh.org] initiative noted in the summary.
)

First, some positive comments.
It's great to see studies like those mentioned in the Newsweek article attracting eyeballs in academia and the popular press.
The conclusions may seem to border on the tautological for most of us (great teachers are great at teaching!
), but such ideas are largely verboten in the public school system.
If you haven't already RTFA, I'd suggest The Atlantic's treatment [theatlantic.com] of the same material.
Anecdotally, I can fully corroborate Teach For America's data.
Both in my school as well as those of my TFA colleagues, teachers that continually pushed themselves to excel and improve in their craft were able to consistently produce jaw-dropping results in their students' test scores.
It really is amazing.
As an example, I co-taught a summer school pre-calculus class with another TFAer in Watts a few years ago.
We somehow managed to march through three years worth of material in those two months; our students went from being on average two grade levels behind to slightly above grade level.
I attribute this success to Teach For America's philosophy of teacher excellence (which is similar to 'kaizen' in many regards).
The summary asks "What makes a good teacher?
"  This is the wrong question.
There is no one thing that will make a teacher great (vibrant personality, deep subject knowledge, an M.S.
Ed., etc.).
Rather, it is an attitude that is willing to try anything (and, conversely, promptly reject the ineffective) to make students succeed.
To use a math analogy, it is the second derivative that matters, not the current value or even the slope.
Disclaimer: this post does not necessarily reflect the views of my former employers.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31385342</id>
	<title>the major problems aren't just teachers.</title>
	<author>nelsonal</author>
	<datestamp>1267885260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The big problem I see with education in the US, is that say 20\% of the parents want a school that basically acts as day care.  However, they cannot admit this becuase that would make them bad parents.  <br> <br>
The other 80\% all want the same thing, one of a few very limited seats at the elite universities in the country.  This results in two major problems.  Arms races between school districts that actually place kids here with huge wastes of resources that aren't necessary except to keep up/ahead of other districts, and b strong desire to prevent other school districts from improving (and creating a new arms race competitor).

Tying school funding to local house prices is a one of the causes of this fundamental problem.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The big problem I see with education in the US , is that say 20 \ % of the parents want a school that basically acts as day care .
However , they can not admit this becuase that would make them bad parents .
The other 80 \ % all want the same thing , one of a few very limited seats at the elite universities in the country .
This results in two major problems .
Arms races between school districts that actually place kids here with huge wastes of resources that are n't necessary except to keep up/ahead of other districts , and b strong desire to prevent other school districts from improving ( and creating a new arms race competitor ) .
Tying school funding to local house prices is a one of the causes of this fundamental problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The big problem I see with education in the US, is that say 20\% of the parents want a school that basically acts as day care.
However, they cannot admit this becuase that would make them bad parents.
The other 80\% all want the same thing, one of a few very limited seats at the elite universities in the country.
This results in two major problems.
Arms races between school districts that actually place kids here with huge wastes of resources that aren't necessary except to keep up/ahead of other districts, and b strong desire to prevent other school districts from improving (and creating a new arms race competitor).
Tying school funding to local house prices is a one of the causes of this fundamental problem.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382488</id>
	<title>Look at what private schools do</title>
	<author>wisebabo</author>
	<datestamp>1267906920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Some of my greatest teachers I had were at a private school I attended (I know, I know "liberal elite" and so on).</p><p>One of them changed my life by getting me interested in computers, another nourished my creative side in architecture.</p><p>Did these teachers have to go through a huge bureaucracy?  Did they have to get endless "certifications"?  No, they merely had to demonstrate that they were GREAT (probably to a small board of their peers or parents).</p><p>I can draw a direct line from the interest those teachers sparked in me to the computer graphics company I founded (and later ended up employing quite a few people at).  I can't imagine what would have happened if I had gone to a "regular" school.</p><p>Get rid of the bureaucracy, cut the unions' power to the bare minimum needed to protect teachers' rights and give parents the right to choose their school.  Ultimately there is no greater issue that will determine the success or failure of the "American Experiment".  Oh, and teach real science not this creationist/climate change denialist crap.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Some of my greatest teachers I had were at a private school I attended ( I know , I know " liberal elite " and so on ) .One of them changed my life by getting me interested in computers , another nourished my creative side in architecture.Did these teachers have to go through a huge bureaucracy ?
Did they have to get endless " certifications " ?
No , they merely had to demonstrate that they were GREAT ( probably to a small board of their peers or parents ) .I can draw a direct line from the interest those teachers sparked in me to the computer graphics company I founded ( and later ended up employing quite a few people at ) .
I ca n't imagine what would have happened if I had gone to a " regular " school.Get rid of the bureaucracy , cut the unions ' power to the bare minimum needed to protect teachers ' rights and give parents the right to choose their school .
Ultimately there is no greater issue that will determine the success or failure of the " American Experiment " .
Oh , and teach real science not this creationist/climate change denialist crap .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Some of my greatest teachers I had were at a private school I attended (I know, I know "liberal elite" and so on).One of them changed my life by getting me interested in computers, another nourished my creative side in architecture.Did these teachers have to go through a huge bureaucracy?
Did they have to get endless "certifications"?
No, they merely had to demonstrate that they were GREAT (probably to a small board of their peers or parents).I can draw a direct line from the interest those teachers sparked in me to the computer graphics company I founded (and later ended up employing quite a few people at).
I can't imagine what would have happened if I had gone to a "regular" school.Get rid of the bureaucracy, cut the unions' power to the bare minimum needed to protect teachers' rights and give parents the right to choose their school.
Ultimately there is no greater issue that will determine the success or failure of the "American Experiment".
Oh, and teach real science not this creationist/climate change denialist crap.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31383276</id>
	<title>Re:overwhelming social and economic forces</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267868640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There was a recent New Yorker article that seemed to cut through all this.  (Unfortunately, you can't read the whole thing without a subscription: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/02/01/100201fa\_fact\_rotella)<br>
&nbsp; <br>Anyway, the point was that the Teach for America program has this huge shitload of data for almost 20 years relating to teacher effectiveness, and they can and have used it to make sure they're hiring better teachers.  The trick is you don't have to identify <i>anything</i> about effective techniques, etc- all you have to do is follow the extremely strong correlations from assessing your candidates,<br>
&nbsp; <br>As an aside, the Teach for America people specifically said it was less relevant the quality of the educational background of the teacher than that they had faced some academic hardship and overcome it in the past.  Screw you for badmouthing people that want to teach.  And you should read both this New Yorker article and the featured one.  They pretty clearly back up the notion that teacher effectiveness is more relevant than this "anti-ghetto" stuff you're spouting without data.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There was a recent New Yorker article that seemed to cut through all this .
( Unfortunately , you ca n't read the whole thing without a subscription : http : //www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/02/01/100201fa \ _fact \ _rotella )   Anyway , the point was that the Teach for America program has this huge shitload of data for almost 20 years relating to teacher effectiveness , and they can and have used it to make sure they 're hiring better teachers .
The trick is you do n't have to identify anything about effective techniques , etc- all you have to do is follow the extremely strong correlations from assessing your candidates ,   As an aside , the Teach for America people specifically said it was less relevant the quality of the educational background of the teacher than that they had faced some academic hardship and overcome it in the past .
Screw you for badmouthing people that want to teach .
And you should read both this New Yorker article and the featured one .
They pretty clearly back up the notion that teacher effectiveness is more relevant than this " anti-ghetto " stuff you 're spouting without data .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There was a recent New Yorker article that seemed to cut through all this.
(Unfortunately, you can't read the whole thing without a subscription: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/02/01/100201fa\_fact\_rotella)
  Anyway, the point was that the Teach for America program has this huge shitload of data for almost 20 years relating to teacher effectiveness, and they can and have used it to make sure they're hiring better teachers.
The trick is you don't have to identify anything about effective techniques, etc- all you have to do is follow the extremely strong correlations from assessing your candidates,
  As an aside, the Teach for America people specifically said it was less relevant the quality of the educational background of the teacher than that they had faced some academic hardship and overcome it in the past.
Screw you for badmouthing people that want to teach.
And you should read both this New Yorker article and the featured one.
They pretty clearly back up the notion that teacher effectiveness is more relevant than this "anti-ghetto" stuff you're spouting without data.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382406</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31383798</id>
	<title>No surprise, skill cannot be created by process...</title>
	<author>gweihir</author>
	<datestamp>1267872660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Teaching depends on the skills of the individuals doing it. No process or method can create that skill. Processes or methods can only ensure that skills that are there can be applied, but without the skilled and talented individuals, the effort is doomed.</p><p>A parallel I see is to software engineering. There are now decade long efforts to find the right process or method that you can then plug cheap, low-skill developers in and get good software. All of these have failed. Process can only help those already good to work without as little hassle as possible, but process cannot compensate for lower skill levels at all. Stupidly, management does not want to see this and still regards developers as interchangeable resources. Even when the creators of a particular process clearly say that the process is far less important than the people applying it (e.g. with Agile, see here <a href="http://agilemanifesto.org/" title="agilemanifesto.org">http://agilemanifesto.org/</a> [agilemanifesto.org]), management does not want to listen.</p><p>I suspect that it boils down to a question of ego. Those managing software creation (or managing education) typically have a perception problem where those doing the actual work are perceived as less important than those managing it. In fact it is (rather obviously) the other way round. This may also be a principle problem of our day and age: Management that does not understand it merely has a supporting role and serves to create conditions for others to do what is really important. I fear that without radically different selection of management based on psychological profiles that prevent those seeking power from getting into management in the first place, neither problem can be solved.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Teaching depends on the skills of the individuals doing it .
No process or method can create that skill .
Processes or methods can only ensure that skills that are there can be applied , but without the skilled and talented individuals , the effort is doomed.A parallel I see is to software engineering .
There are now decade long efforts to find the right process or method that you can then plug cheap , low-skill developers in and get good software .
All of these have failed .
Process can only help those already good to work without as little hassle as possible , but process can not compensate for lower skill levels at all .
Stupidly , management does not want to see this and still regards developers as interchangeable resources .
Even when the creators of a particular process clearly say that the process is far less important than the people applying it ( e.g .
with Agile , see here http : //agilemanifesto.org/ [ agilemanifesto.org ] ) , management does not want to listen.I suspect that it boils down to a question of ego .
Those managing software creation ( or managing education ) typically have a perception problem where those doing the actual work are perceived as less important than those managing it .
In fact it is ( rather obviously ) the other way round .
This may also be a principle problem of our day and age : Management that does not understand it merely has a supporting role and serves to create conditions for others to do what is really important .
I fear that without radically different selection of management based on psychological profiles that prevent those seeking power from getting into management in the first place , neither problem can be solved .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Teaching depends on the skills of the individuals doing it.
No process or method can create that skill.
Processes or methods can only ensure that skills that are there can be applied, but without the skilled and talented individuals, the effort is doomed.A parallel I see is to software engineering.
There are now decade long efforts to find the right process or method that you can then plug cheap, low-skill developers in and get good software.
All of these have failed.
Process can only help those already good to work without as little hassle as possible, but process cannot compensate for lower skill levels at all.
Stupidly, management does not want to see this and still regards developers as interchangeable resources.
Even when the creators of a particular process clearly say that the process is far less important than the people applying it (e.g.
with Agile, see here http://agilemanifesto.org/ [agilemanifesto.org]), management does not want to listen.I suspect that it boils down to a question of ego.
Those managing software creation (or managing education) typically have a perception problem where those doing the actual work are perceived as less important than those managing it.
In fact it is (rather obviously) the other way round.
This may also be a principle problem of our day and age: Management that does not understand it merely has a supporting role and serves to create conditions for others to do what is really important.
I fear that without radically different selection of management based on psychological profiles that prevent those seeking power from getting into management in the first place, neither problem can be solved.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31384098</id>
	<title>Re:When the rot is entrenched at the highest level</title>
	<author>R3d Jack</author>
	<datestamp>1267874760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There are a lot of bad teachers, but there an equal number of incompetent administrators, especially in the inner-city districts. The incompetent ones tend to oppress their teachers, making a tough job miserable. I do have a suggestion that I believe would address a number of issues by adding objectivity across the board. Teachers should be given curricula that are standardized and vertically integrated. The curricula should account for 2/3 of classroom time, so that the teachers have some flexibility. Along with the standardized curricula would be standardized tests. Not annual tests, but every test students take. Grading of students, teachers, schools would be leveled. Of course, the big challenges would be creating the curricula and getting rid of tenure.</htmltext>
<tokenext>There are a lot of bad teachers , but there an equal number of incompetent administrators , especially in the inner-city districts .
The incompetent ones tend to oppress their teachers , making a tough job miserable .
I do have a suggestion that I believe would address a number of issues by adding objectivity across the board .
Teachers should be given curricula that are standardized and vertically integrated .
The curricula should account for 2/3 of classroom time , so that the teachers have some flexibility .
Along with the standardized curricula would be standardized tests .
Not annual tests , but every test students take .
Grading of students , teachers , schools would be leveled .
Of course , the big challenges would be creating the curricula and getting rid of tenure .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are a lot of bad teachers, but there an equal number of incompetent administrators, especially in the inner-city districts.
The incompetent ones tend to oppress their teachers, making a tough job miserable.
I do have a suggestion that I believe would address a number of issues by adding objectivity across the board.
Teachers should be given curricula that are standardized and vertically integrated.
The curricula should account for 2/3 of classroom time, so that the teachers have some flexibility.
Along with the standardized curricula would be standardized tests.
Not annual tests, but every test students take.
Grading of students, teachers, schools would be leveled.
Of course, the big challenges would be creating the curricula and getting rid of tenure.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382162</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382312</id>
	<title>In my experience, authority</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267905960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As free, independant thinking geeks, we like
to disparage authority.  I feel wierd saying it,
but in my experience authority is important.</p><p>You have to understand what I mean by "authority".
It doesn't mean hitting people with rulers, or being
stern all the time.  It's something more like leadership.
You just know it when you see it.</p><p>I spent 3 years in a private school that, while it
had its failings, seemed to know how to control a classroom.
(note, this is a 30 year old memory from when I was a kid,
so I could be wrong; but these are the impressions I got)</p><p>Teacher walks in.  Students get quiet.  End of story.</p><p>You can't learn when the students are running the classroom,
at least not when they're running it out of their id, which is
where most kids operate.  Yes, I'm aware of alternative schools
where kids have free reign and positive outcomes; but there's
some selectivity going on there.  Trying to apply that en masse
would be a mistake, IMHO.</p><p>Anyway, at the private school we had a very charismatic teacher
who was in a bus accident.  We went through at least two replacements
until we found one that could command respect and control the classroom.
The other two literally got spitballed out of class!  In private school,
this was not tolerated, and while individual kids would get punished
if they got caught, it was also recognized that the teacher couldn't
command respect or attention.</p><p>Now, all of this is very squishy.  That's too bad.  Either you've got
it or you don't.  That's all we know now.  Maybe in the future we'll
be able to run accurate psychological profiles that will prevent
non-authoritative individuals from trying to run K-12 classrooms; but for
now, firing is the only thing that works; ie, trial and error.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As free , independant thinking geeks , we like to disparage authority .
I feel wierd saying it , but in my experience authority is important.You have to understand what I mean by " authority " .
It does n't mean hitting people with rulers , or being stern all the time .
It 's something more like leadership .
You just know it when you see it.I spent 3 years in a private school that , while it had its failings , seemed to know how to control a classroom .
( note , this is a 30 year old memory from when I was a kid , so I could be wrong ; but these are the impressions I got ) Teacher walks in .
Students get quiet .
End of story.You ca n't learn when the students are running the classroom , at least not when they 're running it out of their id , which is where most kids operate .
Yes , I 'm aware of alternative schools where kids have free reign and positive outcomes ; but there 's some selectivity going on there .
Trying to apply that en masse would be a mistake , IMHO.Anyway , at the private school we had a very charismatic teacher who was in a bus accident .
We went through at least two replacements until we found one that could command respect and control the classroom .
The other two literally got spitballed out of class !
In private school , this was not tolerated , and while individual kids would get punished if they got caught , it was also recognized that the teacher could n't command respect or attention.Now , all of this is very squishy .
That 's too bad .
Either you 've got it or you do n't .
That 's all we know now .
Maybe in the future we 'll be able to run accurate psychological profiles that will prevent non-authoritative individuals from trying to run K-12 classrooms ; but for now , firing is the only thing that works ; ie , trial and error .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As free, independant thinking geeks, we like
to disparage authority.
I feel wierd saying it,
but in my experience authority is important.You have to understand what I mean by "authority".
It doesn't mean hitting people with rulers, or being
stern all the time.
It's something more like leadership.
You just know it when you see it.I spent 3 years in a private school that, while it
had its failings, seemed to know how to control a classroom.
(note, this is a 30 year old memory from when I was a kid,
so I could be wrong; but these are the impressions I got)Teacher walks in.
Students get quiet.
End of story.You can't learn when the students are running the classroom,
at least not when they're running it out of their id, which is
where most kids operate.
Yes, I'm aware of alternative schools
where kids have free reign and positive outcomes; but there's
some selectivity going on there.
Trying to apply that en masse
would be a mistake, IMHO.Anyway, at the private school we had a very charismatic teacher
who was in a bus accident.
We went through at least two replacements
until we found one that could command respect and control the classroom.
The other two literally got spitballed out of class!
In private school,
this was not tolerated, and while individual kids would get punished
if they got caught, it was also recognized that the teacher couldn't
command respect or attention.Now, all of this is very squishy.
That's too bad.
Either you've got
it or you don't.
That's all we know now.
Maybe in the future we'll
be able to run accurate psychological profiles that will prevent
non-authoritative individuals from trying to run K-12 classrooms; but for
now, firing is the only thing that works; ie, trial and error.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31387518</id>
	<title>It's a problem...</title>
	<author>greatcelerystalk</author>
	<datestamp>1267952640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I worked, until recently, as a "Student Affairs Administrator" and I see a very similar problem in my own field. Much like Education, Student Affairs/Higher Ed Admin seems to attract those individuals who we might all call "nice but not very bright." They're not, by any means dumb, but they're not the most analytical minds on the planet either. A big part of their job involves thinking through problems, which they are often not equipped to do by the education they've received.</p><p>Like K-12 teaching programs, their graduate program does not actually prepare them by teaching them things relevant to actually doing their jobs. Many Student Affairs Administrators spend a great deal of time supervising students, and yet they never take a class on supervision or discuss the best methods for supervising their population, much like many education programs do not focus on strategies that actually improve classroom management.</p><p>Both fields share similar philosophies (frakking Dewey and his sloppy Positivism). I've given some consideration to becoming a teacher. I enrolled in a teacher preparation program only to be disgusted by the curriculum and the "push everyone through" attitude displayed by many in my cohort. Only one of the professors I took a course with actually had any experience as a classroom teacher.</p><p>Much like in Student Affairs, it's not the money. It's not even necessarily the pool of talent; it's the philosophical underpinnings of the field. "Caring and sharing" and "Everybody's a winner" are the mantras that these fields live by.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I worked , until recently , as a " Student Affairs Administrator " and I see a very similar problem in my own field .
Much like Education , Student Affairs/Higher Ed Admin seems to attract those individuals who we might all call " nice but not very bright .
" They 're not , by any means dumb , but they 're not the most analytical minds on the planet either .
A big part of their job involves thinking through problems , which they are often not equipped to do by the education they 've received.Like K-12 teaching programs , their graduate program does not actually prepare them by teaching them things relevant to actually doing their jobs .
Many Student Affairs Administrators spend a great deal of time supervising students , and yet they never take a class on supervision or discuss the best methods for supervising their population , much like many education programs do not focus on strategies that actually improve classroom management.Both fields share similar philosophies ( frakking Dewey and his sloppy Positivism ) .
I 've given some consideration to becoming a teacher .
I enrolled in a teacher preparation program only to be disgusted by the curriculum and the " push everyone through " attitude displayed by many in my cohort .
Only one of the professors I took a course with actually had any experience as a classroom teacher.Much like in Student Affairs , it 's not the money .
It 's not even necessarily the pool of talent ; it 's the philosophical underpinnings of the field .
" Caring and sharing " and " Everybody 's a winner " are the mantras that these fields live by .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I worked, until recently, as a "Student Affairs Administrator" and I see a very similar problem in my own field.
Much like Education, Student Affairs/Higher Ed Admin seems to attract those individuals who we might all call "nice but not very bright.
" They're not, by any means dumb, but they're not the most analytical minds on the planet either.
A big part of their job involves thinking through problems, which they are often not equipped to do by the education they've received.Like K-12 teaching programs, their graduate program does not actually prepare them by teaching them things relevant to actually doing their jobs.
Many Student Affairs Administrators spend a great deal of time supervising students, and yet they never take a class on supervision or discuss the best methods for supervising their population, much like many education programs do not focus on strategies that actually improve classroom management.Both fields share similar philosophies (frakking Dewey and his sloppy Positivism).
I've given some consideration to becoming a teacher.
I enrolled in a teacher preparation program only to be disgusted by the curriculum and the "push everyone through" attitude displayed by many in my cohort.
Only one of the professors I took a course with actually had any experience as a classroom teacher.Much like in Student Affairs, it's not the money.
It's not even necessarily the pool of talent; it's the philosophical underpinnings of the field.
"Caring and sharing" and "Everybody's a winner" are the mantras that these fields live by.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382152</id>
	<title>Science Technology and Math Teachers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267904880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The US House subcommittee has been holding several hearings on this (as relates to America Competes and science education in general)  for both the <a href="http://science.house.gov/press/PRArticle.aspx?NewsID=2740" title="house.gov" rel="nofollow">college</a> [house.gov] <a href="http://verpa.wordpress.com/2010/02/13/two-chemistry-related-stories/" title="wordpress.com" rel="nofollow">(analysis of above)</a> [wordpress.com] and <a href="http://science.house.gov/press/PRArticle.aspx?NewsID=2760" title="house.gov" rel="nofollow">K-12</a> [house.gov] level.  It's worth a look.  For both sets, it seems the consensus to give up on the current crop and focus on new teachers coming out of college / just started teaching, as the others are set in their ways and don't want to change.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The US House subcommittee has been holding several hearings on this ( as relates to America Competes and science education in general ) for both the college [ house.gov ] ( analysis of above ) [ wordpress.com ] and K-12 [ house.gov ] level .
It 's worth a look .
For both sets , it seems the consensus to give up on the current crop and focus on new teachers coming out of college / just started teaching , as the others are set in their ways and do n't want to change .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The US House subcommittee has been holding several hearings on this (as relates to America Competes and science education in general)  for both the college [house.gov] (analysis of above) [wordpress.com] and K-12 [house.gov] level.
It's worth a look.
For both sets, it seems the consensus to give up on the current crop and focus on new teachers coming out of college / just started teaching, as the others are set in their ways and don't want to change.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31387846</id>
	<title>Re:You know it after you have seen it.</title>
	<author>lkeagle</author>
	<datestamp>1267958100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In my experience, students in general are the worst judges of teachers.</p><p>We have to ask ourselves what the purpose of education is before we can judge teachers.  If we step back and decide that the purpose of education is to maximize success, then I would conclude that the best judges of teachers are, quite simply, successful people!</p><p>If you polled all of the most successful people about which teachers led the most to their success, I suspect that the vast majority of them would point to the teachers that truly challenged them - the teachers that made them work relentlessly to solve problems on their own, or those who would not reward anything less than perfection.  These teachers are likely to score the lowest in the student rankings, because when you demand top results, many students are not going to be able to deliver.</p><p>Of course, very few of us actually end up being truly successful, so the system reflects reality.  So, how about we allow the teachers to teach toward the top of the class - or heaven forbid, the median - and be happy knowing that teachers are challenging our students to the best of their ability.  Then we can judge them years later by how many of their students go on to be successful.</p><p>What's that you say? What about the other kids?  The ones at the bottom who couldn't cut it?  Well, that's no different than things are now.  Only right now if kids don't cut it, the school gets shut down and replaced by a charter school that can selectively reject all those 'underperforming' kids from attending...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In my experience , students in general are the worst judges of teachers.We have to ask ourselves what the purpose of education is before we can judge teachers .
If we step back and decide that the purpose of education is to maximize success , then I would conclude that the best judges of teachers are , quite simply , successful people ! If you polled all of the most successful people about which teachers led the most to their success , I suspect that the vast majority of them would point to the teachers that truly challenged them - the teachers that made them work relentlessly to solve problems on their own , or those who would not reward anything less than perfection .
These teachers are likely to score the lowest in the student rankings , because when you demand top results , many students are not going to be able to deliver.Of course , very few of us actually end up being truly successful , so the system reflects reality .
So , how about we allow the teachers to teach toward the top of the class - or heaven forbid , the median - and be happy knowing that teachers are challenging our students to the best of their ability .
Then we can judge them years later by how many of their students go on to be successful.What 's that you say ?
What about the other kids ?
The ones at the bottom who could n't cut it ?
Well , that 's no different than things are now .
Only right now if kids do n't cut it , the school gets shut down and replaced by a charter school that can selectively reject all those 'underperforming ' kids from attending.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In my experience, students in general are the worst judges of teachers.We have to ask ourselves what the purpose of education is before we can judge teachers.
If we step back and decide that the purpose of education is to maximize success, then I would conclude that the best judges of teachers are, quite simply, successful people!If you polled all of the most successful people about which teachers led the most to their success, I suspect that the vast majority of them would point to the teachers that truly challenged them - the teachers that made them work relentlessly to solve problems on their own, or those who would not reward anything less than perfection.
These teachers are likely to score the lowest in the student rankings, because when you demand top results, many students are not going to be able to deliver.Of course, very few of us actually end up being truly successful, so the system reflects reality.
So, how about we allow the teachers to teach toward the top of the class - or heaven forbid, the median - and be happy knowing that teachers are challenging our students to the best of their ability.
Then we can judge them years later by how many of their students go on to be successful.What's that you say?
What about the other kids?
The ones at the bottom who couldn't cut it?
Well, that's no different than things are now.
Only right now if kids don't cut it, the school gets shut down and replaced by a charter school that can selectively reject all those 'underperforming' kids from attending...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382210</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382668</id>
	<title>Been clear for some time</title>
	<author>sunfly</author>
	<datestamp>1267907880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Study after study come to the same conclusion, the single biggest factor in education bar none is the quality of the teacher.  Yet we continue to put up with a system that makes firing teachers almost impossible.  tenure should be illegal at any school that receives public tax dollars.</p><p>The second problem is the best teachers switch to management to almost double their salary, or simply choose a better paying career.  We have allowed schools to become very top heavy, with fewer and fewer dollars actually getting to the classroom.  The system needs rebalanced, more money to the teachers, less for management and other other secondary activities.  We need and want healthy competition. </p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Study after study come to the same conclusion , the single biggest factor in education bar none is the quality of the teacher .
Yet we continue to put up with a system that makes firing teachers almost impossible .
tenure should be illegal at any school that receives public tax dollars.The second problem is the best teachers switch to management to almost double their salary , or simply choose a better paying career .
We have allowed schools to become very top heavy , with fewer and fewer dollars actually getting to the classroom .
The system needs rebalanced , more money to the teachers , less for management and other other secondary activities .
We need and want healthy competition .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Study after study come to the same conclusion, the single biggest factor in education bar none is the quality of the teacher.
Yet we continue to put up with a system that makes firing teachers almost impossible.
tenure should be illegal at any school that receives public tax dollars.The second problem is the best teachers switch to management to almost double their salary, or simply choose a better paying career.
We have allowed schools to become very top heavy, with fewer and fewer dollars actually getting to the classroom.
The system needs rebalanced, more money to the teachers, less for management and other other secondary activities.
We need and want healthy competition. </sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31385560</id>
	<title>A survey</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267886760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>First. "There are no such things as kids who can't learn, just teachers that can't teach"


Every teacher hears that in teachers college. Some kids learn differently but they all learn, the teacher just needs to put the effort in finding out how each kid learns.


Second you should do a survey, 2-3 years after the kid has graduated, to both the parent and the student. Ask who are the best teachers you (or your child) had while in high school, and tell us why. And who are the worst teachers you (or your child) had while in high school.
As a parent we know the bad teachers, the lazy ones that put no effort into teaching. The ones where our kids come home every day. Oh what did you learn? oh we just sat and watched movies. Ya what one. Oh The Terminator (ya that has English class potential LOL) the ones you meet at meet the teacher night and you can see that disinterested glazed over look in their eyes.


Plus a few years after the kid is out of high school, a percentage of the questionnaires just won't come back because neither the child or parent cares.  And yes some will come back gushing with hate, because of personality conflicts. But I guarantee you will see a trend a large percentage will show the worst teachers over and over and over again. And over and over you will hear how that one teacher changed the students life and turned them around in a subject.
You could easily throw away maybe the bottom 5\% of the survey to get rid of just personality conflicts, but if 50\% of a survey comes back 2 - 3 years out of high school saying teacher so and so was the absolute worst i have ever had. Likely, one would hope, the kid and parents have been through quite a few teachers, hopefully more as the kid went to college, or university and experienced an array of teaching styles. And still that one bad teacher sticks out in both the student and parents minds. The one that didn't try and teach, or worse was the anti teacher that made your kid turn away from an interest in the subject. Then that teacher needs to be scrutinized, evaluated and probably fired. And those ones that changed kids and inspired them they need to be paid more and commended and kept for their good work.</htmltext>
<tokenext>First .
" There are no such things as kids who ca n't learn , just teachers that ca n't teach " Every teacher hears that in teachers college .
Some kids learn differently but they all learn , the teacher just needs to put the effort in finding out how each kid learns .
Second you should do a survey , 2-3 years after the kid has graduated , to both the parent and the student .
Ask who are the best teachers you ( or your child ) had while in high school , and tell us why .
And who are the worst teachers you ( or your child ) had while in high school .
As a parent we know the bad teachers , the lazy ones that put no effort into teaching .
The ones where our kids come home every day .
Oh what did you learn ?
oh we just sat and watched movies .
Ya what one .
Oh The Terminator ( ya that has English class potential LOL ) the ones you meet at meet the teacher night and you can see that disinterested glazed over look in their eyes .
Plus a few years after the kid is out of high school , a percentage of the questionnaires just wo n't come back because neither the child or parent cares .
And yes some will come back gushing with hate , because of personality conflicts .
But I guarantee you will see a trend a large percentage will show the worst teachers over and over and over again .
And over and over you will hear how that one teacher changed the students life and turned them around in a subject .
You could easily throw away maybe the bottom 5 \ % of the survey to get rid of just personality conflicts , but if 50 \ % of a survey comes back 2 - 3 years out of high school saying teacher so and so was the absolute worst i have ever had .
Likely , one would hope , the kid and parents have been through quite a few teachers , hopefully more as the kid went to college , or university and experienced an array of teaching styles .
And still that one bad teacher sticks out in both the student and parents minds .
The one that did n't try and teach , or worse was the anti teacher that made your kid turn away from an interest in the subject .
Then that teacher needs to be scrutinized , evaluated and probably fired .
And those ones that changed kids and inspired them they need to be paid more and commended and kept for their good work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First.
"There are no such things as kids who can't learn, just teachers that can't teach"


Every teacher hears that in teachers college.
Some kids learn differently but they all learn, the teacher just needs to put the effort in finding out how each kid learns.
Second you should do a survey, 2-3 years after the kid has graduated, to both the parent and the student.
Ask who are the best teachers you (or your child) had while in high school, and tell us why.
And who are the worst teachers you (or your child) had while in high school.
As a parent we know the bad teachers, the lazy ones that put no effort into teaching.
The ones where our kids come home every day.
Oh what did you learn?
oh we just sat and watched movies.
Ya what one.
Oh The Terminator (ya that has English class potential LOL) the ones you meet at meet the teacher night and you can see that disinterested glazed over look in their eyes.
Plus a few years after the kid is out of high school, a percentage of the questionnaires just won't come back because neither the child or parent cares.
And yes some will come back gushing with hate, because of personality conflicts.
But I guarantee you will see a trend a large percentage will show the worst teachers over and over and over again.
And over and over you will hear how that one teacher changed the students life and turned them around in a subject.
You could easily throw away maybe the bottom 5\% of the survey to get rid of just personality conflicts, but if 50\% of a survey comes back 2 - 3 years out of high school saying teacher so and so was the absolute worst i have ever had.
Likely, one would hope, the kid and parents have been through quite a few teachers, hopefully more as the kid went to college, or university and experienced an array of teaching styles.
And still that one bad teacher sticks out in both the student and parents minds.
The one that didn't try and teach, or worse was the anti teacher that made your kid turn away from an interest in the subject.
Then that teacher needs to be scrutinized, evaluated and probably fired.
And those ones that changed kids and inspired them they need to be paid more and commended and kept for their good work.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382564</id>
	<title>Excerpt from related story</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267907280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>L.A. Weekly:</p><p>In the past decade, [school district] officials spent $3.5 million trying to fire just seven of the district's 33,000 teachers for poor classroom performance &mdash; and only four were fired, during legal struggles that wore on, on average, for five years each. Two of the three others were paid large settlements, and one was reinstated. The average cost of each battle is $500,000.</p><p>[Note that, in one of nation's largest school districts, that's less than one ATTEMPTED firing per year]</p><p>We also discovered that 32 underperforming teachers were initially recommended for firing, but then secretly paid $50,000 by the district, on average, to leave without a fight. Moreover, 66 unnamed teachers are being continually recycled through a costly mentoring and retraining program but failing to improve, and another 400 anonymous teachers have been ordered to attend the retraining.</p><p>- AJ</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>L.A. Weekly : In the past decade , [ school district ] officials spent $ 3.5 million trying to fire just seven of the district 's 33,000 teachers for poor classroom performance    and only four were fired , during legal struggles that wore on , on average , for five years each .
Two of the three others were paid large settlements , and one was reinstated .
The average cost of each battle is $ 500,000 .
[ Note that , in one of nation 's largest school districts , that 's less than one ATTEMPTED firing per year ] We also discovered that 32 underperforming teachers were initially recommended for firing , but then secretly paid $ 50,000 by the district , on average , to leave without a fight .
Moreover , 66 unnamed teachers are being continually recycled through a costly mentoring and retraining program but failing to improve , and another 400 anonymous teachers have been ordered to attend the retraining.- AJ</tokentext>
<sentencetext>L.A. Weekly:In the past decade, [school district] officials spent $3.5 million trying to fire just seven of the district's 33,000 teachers for poor classroom performance — and only four were fired, during legal struggles that wore on, on average, for five years each.
Two of the three others were paid large settlements, and one was reinstated.
The average cost of each battle is $500,000.
[Note that, in one of nation's largest school districts, that's less than one ATTEMPTED firing per year]We also discovered that 32 underperforming teachers were initially recommended for firing, but then secretly paid $50,000 by the district, on average, to leave without a fight.
Moreover, 66 unnamed teachers are being continually recycled through a costly mentoring and retraining program but failing to improve, and another 400 anonymous teachers have been ordered to attend the retraining.- AJ</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31384500</id>
	<title>The other side of the coin...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267878360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The only thing worse than bad teachers, is bad parents.  They (teachers and parents) are the two biggest influences on a child's schooling, both are equally important.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The only thing worse than bad teachers , is bad parents .
They ( teachers and parents ) are the two biggest influences on a child 's schooling , both are equally important .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The only thing worse than bad teachers, is bad parents.
They (teachers and parents) are the two biggest influences on a child's schooling, both are equally important.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382834</id>
	<title>outside the school</title>
	<author>emkyooess</author>
	<datestamp>1267909020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Something this entire thread has missed so far:  It's not entirely up to the teachers.  They're only a part, possibly even a small part, of the solution.  The real change needs to start in the students' homes.  The parents are usually the biggest problem.  Terrible households creating terrible children that destroy classroom learning environments.  Parents who (metaphorically) sledgehammer teachers faces for not picking Billy, or asking Betty to stay late for help, or daring to ask Johnny should practice more.  And heaven forbid the parents actually even know, even marginally, what their children are even studying and take an active interest in their well-being.  Teachers are always the fall-guys.  Usually, however, they're not the problem.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Something this entire thread has missed so far : It 's not entirely up to the teachers .
They 're only a part , possibly even a small part , of the solution .
The real change needs to start in the students ' homes .
The parents are usually the biggest problem .
Terrible households creating terrible children that destroy classroom learning environments .
Parents who ( metaphorically ) sledgehammer teachers faces for not picking Billy , or asking Betty to stay late for help , or daring to ask Johnny should practice more .
And heaven forbid the parents actually even know , even marginally , what their children are even studying and take an active interest in their well-being .
Teachers are always the fall-guys .
Usually , however , they 're not the problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Something this entire thread has missed so far:  It's not entirely up to the teachers.
They're only a part, possibly even a small part, of the solution.
The real change needs to start in the students' homes.
The parents are usually the biggest problem.
Terrible households creating terrible children that destroy classroom learning environments.
Parents who (metaphorically) sledgehammer teachers faces for not picking Billy, or asking Betty to stay late for help, or daring to ask Johnny should practice more.
And heaven forbid the parents actually even know, even marginally, what their children are even studying and take an active interest in their well-being.
Teachers are always the fall-guys.
Usually, however, they're not the problem.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31384112</id>
	<title>Or...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267874880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Standardize teaching so that even a retarded monkey can just follow the curriculum and teach as well as any other teacher as long as they have the proper knowledge.  Up until the end of high school of course; leave colleges and universities alone; but find a way to reduce the price.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Standardize teaching so that even a retarded monkey can just follow the curriculum and teach as well as any other teacher as long as they have the proper knowledge .
Up until the end of high school of course ; leave colleges and universities alone ; but find a way to reduce the price .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Standardize teaching so that even a retarded monkey can just follow the curriculum and teach as well as any other teacher as long as they have the proper knowledge.
Up until the end of high school of course; leave colleges and universities alone; but find a way to reduce the price.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31385914</id>
	<title>Re:In my experience, authority</title>
	<author>WhiteHorse-The Origi</author>
	<datestamp>1267890540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you're proposing that people have "innate" teaching skills... you're sadly mistaken. With your methodology, you'll have a bunch of type A personality power freaks. Sure all your kids will be quiet but their results will vary widely. How would you deal with a teacher who has perfect classroom control but doesn't improve the students' test scores? You're just using the appearance of discipline and not the actual outcomes. In Asia, I see teachers who have perfect class control and their students are terrible. The schools use your methodology...<br> <br>

There is actual research on what makes an effective teacher and it can be taught. The core of the problem in the US is not the teachers themselves but rather the bureacracy of people who get paid but don't actually teach. You also have parenting problems that are pushed off onto teachers. I think a better approach would be to stop sending kids to school that don't want to be there. This would immediately resolve the discipline problem for most teachers as well as lower their class sizes. There is a direct correlation between teacher effectiveness and class size. There is also a direct correlation between student performance and problems at home. This is the traditional role that education has had before mandatory schooling. I've worked in schools where very few kids wanted to be there but their parents were rich so there they were. It was sort of like a prison for both the teachers and students. I've also taught in institutes with small(10-15) class sizes where everyone wanted to be there. It was a real joy and the students did very well. Instead of spending so much money on security guards, metal detectors, social workers/counselors, principals, vice principals, narcotics officers, truancy officers, etc just SOLVE THE PROBLEM! Perhaps all those kids can become tradesmen or laborers and let the kids who want education get it. If they can't hack a regular academic program, send them to school that can meet their needs. Otherwise, GET THE F OUT OF THE CLASSROOM!!!</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you 're proposing that people have " innate " teaching skills... you 're sadly mistaken .
With your methodology , you 'll have a bunch of type A personality power freaks .
Sure all your kids will be quiet but their results will vary widely .
How would you deal with a teacher who has perfect classroom control but does n't improve the students ' test scores ?
You 're just using the appearance of discipline and not the actual outcomes .
In Asia , I see teachers who have perfect class control and their students are terrible .
The schools use your methodology.. . There is actual research on what makes an effective teacher and it can be taught .
The core of the problem in the US is not the teachers themselves but rather the bureacracy of people who get paid but do n't actually teach .
You also have parenting problems that are pushed off onto teachers .
I think a better approach would be to stop sending kids to school that do n't want to be there .
This would immediately resolve the discipline problem for most teachers as well as lower their class sizes .
There is a direct correlation between teacher effectiveness and class size .
There is also a direct correlation between student performance and problems at home .
This is the traditional role that education has had before mandatory schooling .
I 've worked in schools where very few kids wanted to be there but their parents were rich so there they were .
It was sort of like a prison for both the teachers and students .
I 've also taught in institutes with small ( 10-15 ) class sizes where everyone wanted to be there .
It was a real joy and the students did very well .
Instead of spending so much money on security guards , metal detectors , social workers/counselors , principals , vice principals , narcotics officers , truancy officers , etc just SOLVE THE PROBLEM !
Perhaps all those kids can become tradesmen or laborers and let the kids who want education get it .
If they ca n't hack a regular academic program , send them to school that can meet their needs .
Otherwise , GET THE F OUT OF THE CLASSROOM ! !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you're proposing that people have "innate" teaching skills... you're sadly mistaken.
With your methodology, you'll have a bunch of type A personality power freaks.
Sure all your kids will be quiet but their results will vary widely.
How would you deal with a teacher who has perfect classroom control but doesn't improve the students' test scores?
You're just using the appearance of discipline and not the actual outcomes.
In Asia, I see teachers who have perfect class control and their students are terrible.
The schools use your methodology... 

There is actual research on what makes an effective teacher and it can be taught.
The core of the problem in the US is not the teachers themselves but rather the bureacracy of people who get paid but don't actually teach.
You also have parenting problems that are pushed off onto teachers.
I think a better approach would be to stop sending kids to school that don't want to be there.
This would immediately resolve the discipline problem for most teachers as well as lower their class sizes.
There is a direct correlation between teacher effectiveness and class size.
There is also a direct correlation between student performance and problems at home.
This is the traditional role that education has had before mandatory schooling.
I've worked in schools where very few kids wanted to be there but their parents were rich so there they were.
It was sort of like a prison for both the teachers and students.
I've also taught in institutes with small(10-15) class sizes where everyone wanted to be there.
It was a real joy and the students did very well.
Instead of spending so much money on security guards, metal detectors, social workers/counselors, principals, vice principals, narcotics officers, truancy officers, etc just SOLVE THE PROBLEM!
Perhaps all those kids can become tradesmen or laborers and let the kids who want education get it.
If they can't hack a regular academic program, send them to school that can meet their needs.
Otherwise, GET THE F OUT OF THE CLASSROOM!!
!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382312</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31384274</id>
	<title>There are really 3 factors that come into play</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267876320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The first factor is salary. Yes, you can persuade a more educated and more talented individual to teach by offering a higher salary so that they will do that instead of take a much higher paying job in the "private" sector, but you also attract individuals that are only teaching to make a living. The best teachers do so because they love their job and are great at doing it. Yes, teachers deserve more money than any other labor area, but to pay them so would completely destroy the educational system.<br>The second factor is merit pay... that doesn't quite go along with salary. The problem with merit pay is that those teachers that typically do not need to improve due to being in a more affluent area and in a better funded school will be the ones at the top of the scale for the merit pay. Those in the lower performing schools would benefit MUCH more from merit pay in attracting better teachers, but they won't end up getting anything since their students are already at the bottom of the scale in performance and are unlikely to surpass the deficit enough to warrant a pay bump for those teachers. Giving merit pay only to the low income and low performing schools gives the already higher performing schools no incentive to continue to do so either. Both ways, merit pay cannot work.<br>The third factor is the education system itself. Much like in Office Space, the average teacher has at least 5 bosses. They have a department head, an assistant principal over their subject area, the principal themselves, a district level coordinator for their group of schools, and the superintendent. Each of these 5 bosses has a different agenda which often conflicts with that of the others. Yes, every teacher wants to have their students do better, but the job of whoever assesses that teacher outside of just test scores is to make sure they are doing it the "proper" way. Effective teaching, especially in difficult schools, must break the rules. Whether you follow the behaviorist school of philosophy for classroom maintenance, take a more cognitive approach, or simply develop relationships with the student often no one single area will be successful, but the one that is successful is rarely the one that will allow you to keep your job. Not even the highest test scores and the best response from students will matter when one single individual chooses to make your life hell in order to get you out, especially if that single individual is the one evaluating you. Make any single one of your five bosses unhappy even on a personal level and it doesn't matter how good of a teacher you are.</p><p>I will say this though... speaking as a former teacher that has gone through the process of being transferred rather than fired, and having watched as many other teachers, GOOD teachers, went through the same thing, the problem with the entire system is that there is too much organization. Let the teachers teach, let the parents worry about the students behavior in the classroom (and let the child be kicked out), and get rid of the overpaid and unnecessary administration that prevents the system from being effective. I honestly like the idea of vouchers, but I also like the idea of letting the students choose their teacher. Maybe we should allow the teachers that the students choose to learn from be the ones that get the pay, regardless of which school they happen to be at. It would make more of a difference than most of these suggestions.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The first factor is salary .
Yes , you can persuade a more educated and more talented individual to teach by offering a higher salary so that they will do that instead of take a much higher paying job in the " private " sector , but you also attract individuals that are only teaching to make a living .
The best teachers do so because they love their job and are great at doing it .
Yes , teachers deserve more money than any other labor area , but to pay them so would completely destroy the educational system.The second factor is merit pay... that does n't quite go along with salary .
The problem with merit pay is that those teachers that typically do not need to improve due to being in a more affluent area and in a better funded school will be the ones at the top of the scale for the merit pay .
Those in the lower performing schools would benefit MUCH more from merit pay in attracting better teachers , but they wo n't end up getting anything since their students are already at the bottom of the scale in performance and are unlikely to surpass the deficit enough to warrant a pay bump for those teachers .
Giving merit pay only to the low income and low performing schools gives the already higher performing schools no incentive to continue to do so either .
Both ways , merit pay can not work.The third factor is the education system itself .
Much like in Office Space , the average teacher has at least 5 bosses .
They have a department head , an assistant principal over their subject area , the principal themselves , a district level coordinator for their group of schools , and the superintendent .
Each of these 5 bosses has a different agenda which often conflicts with that of the others .
Yes , every teacher wants to have their students do better , but the job of whoever assesses that teacher outside of just test scores is to make sure they are doing it the " proper " way .
Effective teaching , especially in difficult schools , must break the rules .
Whether you follow the behaviorist school of philosophy for classroom maintenance , take a more cognitive approach , or simply develop relationships with the student often no one single area will be successful , but the one that is successful is rarely the one that will allow you to keep your job .
Not even the highest test scores and the best response from students will matter when one single individual chooses to make your life hell in order to get you out , especially if that single individual is the one evaluating you .
Make any single one of your five bosses unhappy even on a personal level and it does n't matter how good of a teacher you are.I will say this though... speaking as a former teacher that has gone through the process of being transferred rather than fired , and having watched as many other teachers , GOOD teachers , went through the same thing , the problem with the entire system is that there is too much organization .
Let the teachers teach , let the parents worry about the students behavior in the classroom ( and let the child be kicked out ) , and get rid of the overpaid and unnecessary administration that prevents the system from being effective .
I honestly like the idea of vouchers , but I also like the idea of letting the students choose their teacher .
Maybe we should allow the teachers that the students choose to learn from be the ones that get the pay , regardless of which school they happen to be at .
It would make more of a difference than most of these suggestions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The first factor is salary.
Yes, you can persuade a more educated and more talented individual to teach by offering a higher salary so that they will do that instead of take a much higher paying job in the "private" sector, but you also attract individuals that are only teaching to make a living.
The best teachers do so because they love their job and are great at doing it.
Yes, teachers deserve more money than any other labor area, but to pay them so would completely destroy the educational system.The second factor is merit pay... that doesn't quite go along with salary.
The problem with merit pay is that those teachers that typically do not need to improve due to being in a more affluent area and in a better funded school will be the ones at the top of the scale for the merit pay.
Those in the lower performing schools would benefit MUCH more from merit pay in attracting better teachers, but they won't end up getting anything since their students are already at the bottom of the scale in performance and are unlikely to surpass the deficit enough to warrant a pay bump for those teachers.
Giving merit pay only to the low income and low performing schools gives the already higher performing schools no incentive to continue to do so either.
Both ways, merit pay cannot work.The third factor is the education system itself.
Much like in Office Space, the average teacher has at least 5 bosses.
They have a department head, an assistant principal over their subject area, the principal themselves, a district level coordinator for their group of schools, and the superintendent.
Each of these 5 bosses has a different agenda which often conflicts with that of the others.
Yes, every teacher wants to have their students do better, but the job of whoever assesses that teacher outside of just test scores is to make sure they are doing it the "proper" way.
Effective teaching, especially in difficult schools, must break the rules.
Whether you follow the behaviorist school of philosophy for classroom maintenance, take a more cognitive approach, or simply develop relationships with the student often no one single area will be successful, but the one that is successful is rarely the one that will allow you to keep your job.
Not even the highest test scores and the best response from students will matter when one single individual chooses to make your life hell in order to get you out, especially if that single individual is the one evaluating you.
Make any single one of your five bosses unhappy even on a personal level and it doesn't matter how good of a teacher you are.I will say this though... speaking as a former teacher that has gone through the process of being transferred rather than fired, and having watched as many other teachers, GOOD teachers, went through the same thing, the problem with the entire system is that there is too much organization.
Let the teachers teach, let the parents worry about the students behavior in the classroom (and let the child be kicked out), and get rid of the overpaid and unnecessary administration that prevents the system from being effective.
I honestly like the idea of vouchers, but I also like the idea of letting the students choose their teacher.
Maybe we should allow the teachers that the students choose to learn from be the ones that get the pay, regardless of which school they happen to be at.
It would make more of a difference than most of these suggestions.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31383578</id>
	<title>Re:Good Teachers</title>
	<author>serialband</author>
	<datestamp>1267870800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why would a charismatic individual work as a teacher if her salary was too low?  You will still need to properly compensate a teacher for her work.</p><p>If you had read the article, charisma was not the factor.  The good teachers know how to give proper directions and have children follow instructions, which allows them to impart information to the class.  Unruly classrooms are run by teachers who don't know how to manage small crowds properly.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why would a charismatic individual work as a teacher if her salary was too low ?
You will still need to properly compensate a teacher for her work.If you had read the article , charisma was not the factor .
The good teachers know how to give proper directions and have children follow instructions , which allows them to impart information to the class .
Unruly classrooms are run by teachers who do n't know how to manage small crowds properly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why would a charismatic individual work as a teacher if her salary was too low?
You will still need to properly compensate a teacher for her work.If you had read the article, charisma was not the factor.
The good teachers know how to give proper directions and have children follow instructions, which allows them to impart information to the class.
Unruly classrooms are run by teachers who don't know how to manage small crowds properly.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382178</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31383834</id>
	<title>The OTHER Elephant</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267872900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Having attended grad school to secure a teaching certificate, I can tell you that the education culture will resist any attempt to cull poor performers from the pack. The emphasis is on never criticizing and being exceptionally inclusive. When peer review was done, all reviews were A+ while performance varied considerably. The instructors and students "accommodated" the poor performers because I was told "They need jobs too and it's our job to help them.".</p><p>And I'll bring up the other elephant in the room: it's because education is, in the USA at least, a very female culture. You can see the effect of this in the entire process, much to the detriment of the students: management by consensus, emphasis on behaving "well" and being quiet, institutional enforcement of the status quo, heavy reliance on social rules, reliance on strategies like "think of the children" when engaging in discussion and so on. Sadly, this aspect has been discussed for years and since the education/female culture is threatened by it, it is never fully addressed and typically dismissed as not relevant. The female culture of caring and nurturing is wonderful for day care, but not for educating. And what is it our schools appear to have become? Institutions of babysitting where the emphasis is on "getting along", "respecting diversity", improving "self esteem" and walking quietly in a straight line down the hall. The nod to learning is achieving a good score on a standardized test, which the teachers in Norfolk, VA have been manipulating (cheating) to artificially inflate score to keep their budgets and jobs. There's nothing wrong with female culture, it's simply misapplied in education.</p><p>Given that Bill Gates is not an educator, he is not aware that the characteristics of a good teacher have long been known (but he could "Bing" that, I suppose), it's how to communicate and teach those that is still undecided (RTFA). It's just that those characteristics seems to be at odds with the moribund education culture.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Having attended grad school to secure a teaching certificate , I can tell you that the education culture will resist any attempt to cull poor performers from the pack .
The emphasis is on never criticizing and being exceptionally inclusive .
When peer review was done , all reviews were A + while performance varied considerably .
The instructors and students " accommodated " the poor performers because I was told " They need jobs too and it 's our job to help them .
" .And I 'll bring up the other elephant in the room : it 's because education is , in the USA at least , a very female culture .
You can see the effect of this in the entire process , much to the detriment of the students : management by consensus , emphasis on behaving " well " and being quiet , institutional enforcement of the status quo , heavy reliance on social rules , reliance on strategies like " think of the children " when engaging in discussion and so on .
Sadly , this aspect has been discussed for years and since the education/female culture is threatened by it , it is never fully addressed and typically dismissed as not relevant .
The female culture of caring and nurturing is wonderful for day care , but not for educating .
And what is it our schools appear to have become ?
Institutions of babysitting where the emphasis is on " getting along " , " respecting diversity " , improving " self esteem " and walking quietly in a straight line down the hall .
The nod to learning is achieving a good score on a standardized test , which the teachers in Norfolk , VA have been manipulating ( cheating ) to artificially inflate score to keep their budgets and jobs .
There 's nothing wrong with female culture , it 's simply misapplied in education.Given that Bill Gates is not an educator , he is not aware that the characteristics of a good teacher have long been known ( but he could " Bing " that , I suppose ) , it 's how to communicate and teach those that is still undecided ( RTFA ) .
It 's just that those characteristics seems to be at odds with the moribund education culture .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Having attended grad school to secure a teaching certificate, I can tell you that the education culture will resist any attempt to cull poor performers from the pack.
The emphasis is on never criticizing and being exceptionally inclusive.
When peer review was done, all reviews were A+ while performance varied considerably.
The instructors and students "accommodated" the poor performers because I was told "They need jobs too and it's our job to help them.
".And I'll bring up the other elephant in the room: it's because education is, in the USA at least, a very female culture.
You can see the effect of this in the entire process, much to the detriment of the students: management by consensus, emphasis on behaving "well" and being quiet, institutional enforcement of the status quo, heavy reliance on social rules, reliance on strategies like "think of the children" when engaging in discussion and so on.
Sadly, this aspect has been discussed for years and since the education/female culture is threatened by it, it is never fully addressed and typically dismissed as not relevant.
The female culture of caring and nurturing is wonderful for day care, but not for educating.
And what is it our schools appear to have become?
Institutions of babysitting where the emphasis is on "getting along", "respecting diversity", improving "self esteem" and walking quietly in a straight line down the hall.
The nod to learning is achieving a good score on a standardized test, which the teachers in Norfolk, VA have been manipulating (cheating) to artificially inflate score to keep their budgets and jobs.
There's nothing wrong with female culture, it's simply misapplied in education.Given that Bill Gates is not an educator, he is not aware that the characteristics of a good teacher have long been known (but he could "Bing" that, I suppose), it's how to communicate and teach those that is still undecided (RTFA).
It's just that those characteristics seems to be at odds with the moribund education culture.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31384136</id>
	<title>Re:Prental Involment?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267875120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>In many "at risk" districts teachers spend more than half their day making sure the kids aren't hungry, are behaving in class, have their homework completed, and have the supplies that they need like pencils.</p></div><p>I can't speak to a wider trend, but I can verify this in the case of at least one public school.  My wife teaches 9th graders and regularly brings food for her students just to make sure they have eaten, because there isn't any at home.  She also gives them books that she's finished reading, because otherwise they wouldn't have any at home.  Turns out when somebody actually takes the time to figure out what they're interested in, and then provides those books, these kids really like to read.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>In many " at risk " districts teachers spend more than half their day making sure the kids are n't hungry , are behaving in class , have their homework completed , and have the supplies that they need like pencils.I ca n't speak to a wider trend , but I can verify this in the case of at least one public school .
My wife teaches 9th graders and regularly brings food for her students just to make sure they have eaten , because there is n't any at home .
She also gives them books that she 's finished reading , because otherwise they would n't have any at home .
Turns out when somebody actually takes the time to figure out what they 're interested in , and then provides those books , these kids really like to read .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In many "at risk" districts teachers spend more than half their day making sure the kids aren't hungry, are behaving in class, have their homework completed, and have the supplies that they need like pencils.I can't speak to a wider trend, but I can verify this in the case of at least one public school.
My wife teaches 9th graders and regularly brings food for her students just to make sure they have eaten, because there isn't any at home.
She also gives them books that she's finished reading, because otherwise they wouldn't have any at home.
Turns out when somebody actually takes the time to figure out what they're interested in, and then provides those books, these kids really like to read.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382426</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31385042</id>
	<title>Clean up the system</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267883100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In order to improve the educational standards of America we need to clean up the mess we've made of the system.</p><p>The first step is to repeal idiotic laws like "No Child Left Behind."  This is merely an example, but it is a good one because it has direct impact on the effectiveness of our schools.  I worked at an educational agency (which is why I'm posting anonymously), and I have direct knowledge of a school that had no computer lab because of NCLB.  Because of a single student, one who was essentially - but not literally - brain dead, they had to use up an entire classroom and a highly paid teacher (highly paid because they require a huge number of certifications) for that one student.  Prior to NCLB, they could have refused to provide free babysitting, or at least dropped the boy into a room shared with study halls.  I don't mean this specifically as an attack on NCLB; it is merely an example of what these kinds of programs do.  You cannot speed up the slow kids, you can only hold the faster kids back; if no one falls behind, no one gets ahead.</p><p>The second step is to empower the administrators.  We've taken the ability to make judgments out of the hands of prinicals and superintendents, and forced them to adopt unthinking policies without the flexibility to adapt to specific circumstances.  This leads to "no tolerance" policies, where little girls get in trouble for carrying nail files, instead of letting the administrators decide what's okay on a case-by-case basis.  Why has this happened?  Fear.  Fear that sometimes a decision might not be completely fair (which is a pipe dream, anyway), but moreover a fear, by the administrators, that they'll lose their jobs if they make one overbearing parent upset, no matter how good a job they've done for the rest of the students.  We need to start backing the administrators, and the teachers along with them, and supporting their ability to make judgments.  And we need to do this not by making laws, but by defending them when they need it.</p><p>The third step is to eliminate home schooling.  I know this isn't going to be popular with many people, but I don't care.  Home schooling takes the few parents who give a crap, and removes them from the community.  If those parents would just lend a hand with the schools instead, maybe their schools wouldn't have all the problems that the home schoolers claim they do.</p><p>The fourth step is to improve teachers.  Contrary to what people seem to think, this CAN be done.  In fact, this is the purpose of standardized testing (eg. CAT tests).  Sure, they can be used to determine what classes a given student might be placed in, but the real reason to use standardized tests it to determine how well a teacher has done.  A well-written question tells you not just whether the students generally learned a subject, but also in what way they got it wrong.  For example, if they can't identify what makes something a poem, are they getting it confused with a short story, or with a play?  This information can allow a teacher to improve their teaching methods and examples for the next class.  The problem is that so few of them make use of this information.  So we need to help them with this.  And of course, as mentioned by the article, we need to get rid of teachers who consistently do poorly.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In order to improve the educational standards of America we need to clean up the mess we 've made of the system.The first step is to repeal idiotic laws like " No Child Left Behind .
" This is merely an example , but it is a good one because it has direct impact on the effectiveness of our schools .
I worked at an educational agency ( which is why I 'm posting anonymously ) , and I have direct knowledge of a school that had no computer lab because of NCLB .
Because of a single student , one who was essentially - but not literally - brain dead , they had to use up an entire classroom and a highly paid teacher ( highly paid because they require a huge number of certifications ) for that one student .
Prior to NCLB , they could have refused to provide free babysitting , or at least dropped the boy into a room shared with study halls .
I do n't mean this specifically as an attack on NCLB ; it is merely an example of what these kinds of programs do .
You can not speed up the slow kids , you can only hold the faster kids back ; if no one falls behind , no one gets ahead.The second step is to empower the administrators .
We 've taken the ability to make judgments out of the hands of prinicals and superintendents , and forced them to adopt unthinking policies without the flexibility to adapt to specific circumstances .
This leads to " no tolerance " policies , where little girls get in trouble for carrying nail files , instead of letting the administrators decide what 's okay on a case-by-case basis .
Why has this happened ?
Fear. Fear that sometimes a decision might not be completely fair ( which is a pipe dream , anyway ) , but moreover a fear , by the administrators , that they 'll lose their jobs if they make one overbearing parent upset , no matter how good a job they 've done for the rest of the students .
We need to start backing the administrators , and the teachers along with them , and supporting their ability to make judgments .
And we need to do this not by making laws , but by defending them when they need it.The third step is to eliminate home schooling .
I know this is n't going to be popular with many people , but I do n't care .
Home schooling takes the few parents who give a crap , and removes them from the community .
If those parents would just lend a hand with the schools instead , maybe their schools would n't have all the problems that the home schoolers claim they do.The fourth step is to improve teachers .
Contrary to what people seem to think , this CAN be done .
In fact , this is the purpose of standardized testing ( eg .
CAT tests ) .
Sure , they can be used to determine what classes a given student might be placed in , but the real reason to use standardized tests it to determine how well a teacher has done .
A well-written question tells you not just whether the students generally learned a subject , but also in what way they got it wrong .
For example , if they ca n't identify what makes something a poem , are they getting it confused with a short story , or with a play ?
This information can allow a teacher to improve their teaching methods and examples for the next class .
The problem is that so few of them make use of this information .
So we need to help them with this .
And of course , as mentioned by the article , we need to get rid of teachers who consistently do poorly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In order to improve the educational standards of America we need to clean up the mess we've made of the system.The first step is to repeal idiotic laws like "No Child Left Behind.
"  This is merely an example, but it is a good one because it has direct impact on the effectiveness of our schools.
I worked at an educational agency (which is why I'm posting anonymously), and I have direct knowledge of a school that had no computer lab because of NCLB.
Because of a single student, one who was essentially - but not literally - brain dead, they had to use up an entire classroom and a highly paid teacher (highly paid because they require a huge number of certifications) for that one student.
Prior to NCLB, they could have refused to provide free babysitting, or at least dropped the boy into a room shared with study halls.
I don't mean this specifically as an attack on NCLB; it is merely an example of what these kinds of programs do.
You cannot speed up the slow kids, you can only hold the faster kids back; if no one falls behind, no one gets ahead.The second step is to empower the administrators.
We've taken the ability to make judgments out of the hands of prinicals and superintendents, and forced them to adopt unthinking policies without the flexibility to adapt to specific circumstances.
This leads to "no tolerance" policies, where little girls get in trouble for carrying nail files, instead of letting the administrators decide what's okay on a case-by-case basis.
Why has this happened?
Fear.  Fear that sometimes a decision might not be completely fair (which is a pipe dream, anyway), but moreover a fear, by the administrators, that they'll lose their jobs if they make one overbearing parent upset, no matter how good a job they've done for the rest of the students.
We need to start backing the administrators, and the teachers along with them, and supporting their ability to make judgments.
And we need to do this not by making laws, but by defending them when they need it.The third step is to eliminate home schooling.
I know this isn't going to be popular with many people, but I don't care.
Home schooling takes the few parents who give a crap, and removes them from the community.
If those parents would just lend a hand with the schools instead, maybe their schools wouldn't have all the problems that the home schoolers claim they do.The fourth step is to improve teachers.
Contrary to what people seem to think, this CAN be done.
In fact, this is the purpose of standardized testing (eg.
CAT tests).
Sure, they can be used to determine what classes a given student might be placed in, but the real reason to use standardized tests it to determine how well a teacher has done.
A well-written question tells you not just whether the students generally learned a subject, but also in what way they got it wrong.
For example, if they can't identify what makes something a poem, are they getting it confused with a short story, or with a play?
This information can allow a teacher to improve their teaching methods and examples for the next class.
The problem is that so few of them make use of this information.
So we need to help them with this.
And of course, as mentioned by the article, we need to get rid of teachers who consistently do poorly.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31385462</id>
	<title>DT Causing a revolt</title>
	<author>meburke</author>
	<datestamp>1267885980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I read about "Directed Teaching" (also called "Directed Instruction") in the book "Supercrunchers" by Ian Ayers and have done a little research since. Here is a good article: <a href="http://www.jefflindsay.com/EducData.shtml" title="jefflindsay.com">http://www.jefflindsay.com/EducData.shtml</a> [jefflindsay.com] . I went to Catholic schools (over 50 years ago) and the experience of directed teaching read as similar to how I was instructed by all those nuns. In the last year, every single time I've brought up the subject to a public school teacher I've been met with anger, fear, and VERY strong resistance. They hate my argument that, "If teachers were really concerned about being the best, they would adopt what works." (Forgive the rhetorical fallacy in that statement. Reason is usually not a prominent feature of these conversations by that point.)</p><p>I'm not a teacher, but over the last 40-some years I've never had a 4th-grader (or older) that I couldn't teach to do Addition, Subtraction, Multiplication, Division and Square Roots in their head in less than two months. There is no excuse for people graduating from school without those skills. (I teach them the Trachtenberg System of Basic Mathematics. Teachers hate that because they don't know what the student is doing, but they know it works better than what they are teaching.)</p><p>Another interesting read is "The Underground History of American Education" by John Taylor Gatto <a href="http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/" title="johntaylorgatto.com">http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/</a> [johntaylorgatto.com] . This book disturbs me for its lack of citations and the fact that it reads as if it were constructed on the same blueprint as a Dan Brown novel, but if you are concerned about the "school-as-prison" mentality, it is a good place to start. One of his other books, "Dumbing us Down" is very thought-provoking. He claims it takes about 200 hours to teach English Reading and Writing. If that's so, how can people spend 12 years in school and graduate without the ability to read and write?</p><p>As an interesting side note: The new head of the Houston Independent School District (HISD) is removing the barbed wire around his schools so they don't look so much like prisons. <a href="http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6886238.html" title="chron.com">http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6886238.html</a> [chron.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I read about " Directed Teaching " ( also called " Directed Instruction " ) in the book " Supercrunchers " by Ian Ayers and have done a little research since .
Here is a good article : http : //www.jefflindsay.com/EducData.shtml [ jefflindsay.com ] .
I went to Catholic schools ( over 50 years ago ) and the experience of directed teaching read as similar to how I was instructed by all those nuns .
In the last year , every single time I 've brought up the subject to a public school teacher I 've been met with anger , fear , and VERY strong resistance .
They hate my argument that , " If teachers were really concerned about being the best , they would adopt what works .
" ( Forgive the rhetorical fallacy in that statement .
Reason is usually not a prominent feature of these conversations by that point .
) I 'm not a teacher , but over the last 40-some years I 've never had a 4th-grader ( or older ) that I could n't teach to do Addition , Subtraction , Multiplication , Division and Square Roots in their head in less than two months .
There is no excuse for people graduating from school without those skills .
( I teach them the Trachtenberg System of Basic Mathematics .
Teachers hate that because they do n't know what the student is doing , but they know it works better than what they are teaching .
) Another interesting read is " The Underground History of American Education " by John Taylor Gatto http : //www.johntaylorgatto.com/ [ johntaylorgatto.com ] .
This book disturbs me for its lack of citations and the fact that it reads as if it were constructed on the same blueprint as a Dan Brown novel , but if you are concerned about the " school-as-prison " mentality , it is a good place to start .
One of his other books , " Dumbing us Down " is very thought-provoking .
He claims it takes about 200 hours to teach English Reading and Writing .
If that 's so , how can people spend 12 years in school and graduate without the ability to read and write ? As an interesting side note : The new head of the Houston Independent School District ( HISD ) is removing the barbed wire around his schools so they do n't look so much like prisons .
http : //www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6886238.html [ chron.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I read about "Directed Teaching" (also called "Directed Instruction") in the book "Supercrunchers" by Ian Ayers and have done a little research since.
Here is a good article: http://www.jefflindsay.com/EducData.shtml [jefflindsay.com] .
I went to Catholic schools (over 50 years ago) and the experience of directed teaching read as similar to how I was instructed by all those nuns.
In the last year, every single time I've brought up the subject to a public school teacher I've been met with anger, fear, and VERY strong resistance.
They hate my argument that, "If teachers were really concerned about being the best, they would adopt what works.
" (Forgive the rhetorical fallacy in that statement.
Reason is usually not a prominent feature of these conversations by that point.
)I'm not a teacher, but over the last 40-some years I've never had a 4th-grader (or older) that I couldn't teach to do Addition, Subtraction, Multiplication, Division and Square Roots in their head in less than two months.
There is no excuse for people graduating from school without those skills.
(I teach them the Trachtenberg System of Basic Mathematics.
Teachers hate that because they don't know what the student is doing, but they know it works better than what they are teaching.
)Another interesting read is "The Underground History of American Education" by John Taylor Gatto http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/ [johntaylorgatto.com] .
This book disturbs me for its lack of citations and the fact that it reads as if it were constructed on the same blueprint as a Dan Brown novel, but if you are concerned about the "school-as-prison" mentality, it is a good place to start.
One of his other books, "Dumbing us Down" is very thought-provoking.
He claims it takes about 200 hours to teach English Reading and Writing.
If that's so, how can people spend 12 years in school and graduate without the ability to read and write?As an interesting side note: The new head of the Houston Independent School District (HISD) is removing the barbed wire around his schools so they don't look so much like prisons.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6886238.html [chron.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382366</id>
	<title>What about...</title>
	<author>Ginger\_Chris</author>
	<datestamp>1267906260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>..Class size?

As a science teacher, I fully agree with all the comments about the difficulty of firing teachers, and the effect of teachers of pupils performance, BUT in terms of my own teaching - if the school cannot afford enough teachers and class sizes are made larger - not even the best teacher in the world can make that much of a difference. On the other hand, fewer students with even a bad teacher will do better.

Also, the government (UK in this case) should stop changing the sylabus or current faddy pedagogy and let teachers teach the same thing for more than 3 years. Just when you start achieving results with whatever they have decided is the 'next best thing'(TM) they change it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>..Class size ?
As a science teacher , I fully agree with all the comments about the difficulty of firing teachers , and the effect of teachers of pupils performance , BUT in terms of my own teaching - if the school can not afford enough teachers and class sizes are made larger - not even the best teacher in the world can make that much of a difference .
On the other hand , fewer students with even a bad teacher will do better .
Also , the government ( UK in this case ) should stop changing the sylabus or current faddy pedagogy and let teachers teach the same thing for more than 3 years .
Just when you start achieving results with whatever they have decided is the 'next best thing ' ( TM ) they change it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>..Class size?
As a science teacher, I fully agree with all the comments about the difficulty of firing teachers, and the effect of teachers of pupils performance, BUT in terms of my own teaching - if the school cannot afford enough teachers and class sizes are made larger - not even the best teacher in the world can make that much of a difference.
On the other hand, fewer students with even a bad teacher will do better.
Also, the government (UK in this case) should stop changing the sylabus or current faddy pedagogy and let teachers teach the same thing for more than 3 years.
Just when you start achieving results with whatever they have decided is the 'next best thing'(TM) they change it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382706</id>
	<title>Re:Good Teachers</title>
	<author>im\_thatoneguy</author>
	<datestamp>1267908180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Just a nice bureaucracy and politics-free workplace</p></div><p>This is why teacher evaluations will always be extremely difficult to determine.</p><p>Both my parents are teachers.  One university and one middle and grade-school.  I don't know that either have taught at any school that wasn't rife with bureaucracy and politics.  "Well that's what you get with government."  No.  One of them teaches at a private school.   Every school I've attended both public and private has been full of politics and bureaucracy. Teachers driven out because an administrator wanted to hire one of their friends.   The most difficult part of this process would be finding a way that those politics don't just get empowered by the ability to easily fire teachers.</p><p>I have a theory as to why this is the case.  It's because nobody is well payed.   When you don't get monetary compensation all you're left with is power.</p><p>Even then I don't see what good any of it will do.  I went to a private school for almost every single year except the first half of Kindergarten.   In that time I had great teachers and I had terrible teachers.  The administration had total power over hiring and firing.  I can't think of a single instance in my entire life where a poor teacher was actually fired.  I can think of numerous instances where teachers who I thought were amazing were driven to quit.</p><p>So how do we find the good teachers?<br>Do we ask the students?  Maybe in college.  But students are always split.   My favorite teachers actually required the students to think.  This usually resulted in a large subset of students hating them.   One of my favorite teachers would throw chalk erasers at students who weren't paying attention.   His argument being if they were paying attention to class they would see it coming!  I got hit a bunch of times but still thought it was hilarious.   Some of the teachers I despised who simply forced 18th century rote memorization of useless facts were hugely popular with the students who didn't care about relevance and would spend all night memorizing lists of things.</p><p>Do we ask the other teachers?  In which case you're back to the teacher cliques and politics.</p><p>DO we look at test scores?  Do we want all the teachers just competing to get the best test scores?  Can we fully compensate for the students' natural talents and quality and home life?   My high-school always was in the top 5 percentile for test scores.  We achieved that imo largely through our expulsion policy.    Get caught smoking off campus.  Expelled.  Get caught drinking off campus.  Expelled.  Get arrested for vandalism off campus.  Expelled.   Get pregnant.  Expelled.    Through a stringent expulsion policy we managed to expel anyone and everyone who statistically would be a poor student.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Just a nice bureaucracy and politics-free workplaceThis is why teacher evaluations will always be extremely difficult to determine.Both my parents are teachers .
One university and one middle and grade-school .
I do n't know that either have taught at any school that was n't rife with bureaucracy and politics .
" Well that 's what you get with government .
" No .
One of them teaches at a private school .
Every school I 've attended both public and private has been full of politics and bureaucracy .
Teachers driven out because an administrator wanted to hire one of their friends .
The most difficult part of this process would be finding a way that those politics do n't just get empowered by the ability to easily fire teachers.I have a theory as to why this is the case .
It 's because nobody is well payed .
When you do n't get monetary compensation all you 're left with is power.Even then I do n't see what good any of it will do .
I went to a private school for almost every single year except the first half of Kindergarten .
In that time I had great teachers and I had terrible teachers .
The administration had total power over hiring and firing .
I ca n't think of a single instance in my entire life where a poor teacher was actually fired .
I can think of numerous instances where teachers who I thought were amazing were driven to quit.So how do we find the good teachers ? Do we ask the students ?
Maybe in college .
But students are always split .
My favorite teachers actually required the students to think .
This usually resulted in a large subset of students hating them .
One of my favorite teachers would throw chalk erasers at students who were n't paying attention .
His argument being if they were paying attention to class they would see it coming !
I got hit a bunch of times but still thought it was hilarious .
Some of the teachers I despised who simply forced 18th century rote memorization of useless facts were hugely popular with the students who did n't care about relevance and would spend all night memorizing lists of things.Do we ask the other teachers ?
In which case you 're back to the teacher cliques and politics.DO we look at test scores ?
Do we want all the teachers just competing to get the best test scores ?
Can we fully compensate for the students ' natural talents and quality and home life ?
My high-school always was in the top 5 percentile for test scores .
We achieved that imo largely through our expulsion policy .
Get caught smoking off campus .
Expelled. Get caught drinking off campus .
Expelled. Get arrested for vandalism off campus .
Expelled. Get pregnant .
Expelled. Through a stringent expulsion policy we managed to expel anyone and everyone who statistically would be a poor student .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just a nice bureaucracy and politics-free workplaceThis is why teacher evaluations will always be extremely difficult to determine.Both my parents are teachers.
One university and one middle and grade-school.
I don't know that either have taught at any school that wasn't rife with bureaucracy and politics.
"Well that's what you get with government.
"  No.
One of them teaches at a private school.
Every school I've attended both public and private has been full of politics and bureaucracy.
Teachers driven out because an administrator wanted to hire one of their friends.
The most difficult part of this process would be finding a way that those politics don't just get empowered by the ability to easily fire teachers.I have a theory as to why this is the case.
It's because nobody is well payed.
When you don't get monetary compensation all you're left with is power.Even then I don't see what good any of it will do.
I went to a private school for almost every single year except the first half of Kindergarten.
In that time I had great teachers and I had terrible teachers.
The administration had total power over hiring and firing.
I can't think of a single instance in my entire life where a poor teacher was actually fired.
I can think of numerous instances where teachers who I thought were amazing were driven to quit.So how do we find the good teachers?Do we ask the students?
Maybe in college.
But students are always split.
My favorite teachers actually required the students to think.
This usually resulted in a large subset of students hating them.
One of my favorite teachers would throw chalk erasers at students who weren't paying attention.
His argument being if they were paying attention to class they would see it coming!
I got hit a bunch of times but still thought it was hilarious.
Some of the teachers I despised who simply forced 18th century rote memorization of useless facts were hugely popular with the students who didn't care about relevance and would spend all night memorizing lists of things.Do we ask the other teachers?
In which case you're back to the teacher cliques and politics.DO we look at test scores?
Do we want all the teachers just competing to get the best test scores?
Can we fully compensate for the students' natural talents and quality and home life?
My high-school always was in the top 5 percentile for test scores.
We achieved that imo largely through our expulsion policy.
Get caught smoking off campus.
Expelled.  Get caught drinking off campus.
Expelled.  Get arrested for vandalism off campus.
Expelled.   Get pregnant.
Expelled.    Through a stringent expulsion policy we managed to expel anyone and everyone who statistically would be a poor student.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382178</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31384036</id>
	<title>Re:Better teachers and more funding !</title>
	<author>fishexe</author>
	<datestamp>1267874340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> It's nearly impossible to fire underperforming teachers.  Just look at the hubbub in Rhoad Island a few weeks ago.</p></div><p>Clearly yours was one of them.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's nearly impossible to fire underperforming teachers .
Just look at the hubbub in Rhoad Island a few weeks ago.Clearly yours was one of them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> It's nearly impossible to fire underperforming teachers.
Just look at the hubbub in Rhoad Island a few weeks ago.Clearly yours was one of them.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382282</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31383628</id>
	<title>Re:In my experience, authority</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267871160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm 100\% with you up until the point you said "you've either got it or you don't"</p><p>The skills for classroom control are very teachable.  I've had five years in the trenches at the chalkface and swear by the techniques taught in http://fredjones.com.  Dr Jones is a clinical psychologist who studied the "you've either got it or you don't" theory.</p><p>He studied 100 "got it" teachers,<br>Then 100 "don't got it" teachers.</p><p>Wrote down what all of group one had in common,  wrote down what all of group 2 had in common.</p><p>Told group 2 to stop doing X and start doing Y.</p><p>Then group 2 became "got it" teachers.</p><p>The scientific method *does* apply to proper classroom delivery.</p><p>I was a *damned* good teacher... in fact, the graduating class in my last year as a teacher received a 100\% pass rate on a nationally standardized exam.  Not only that, but we did it a whole school term early.   (Allowing many of them to resubmit their work for higher grades).</p><p>I really loved the actual teaching... but the politics and bullshit.  standardized testing, school league tables based on test results, schools &amp; teachers bullied over test results that are more to do with postal code (socioeconomic status) than anything else were all contributing factors.</p><p>Not to mention the constant stream of bullshit articles written by dumb fuckers who've got an opinion about how teaching should be done but have no idea about the realities.  Politicians who think they know how teaching should be done.  Bollocks!</p><p>Everyone seems to think they know what a school should be like because they went to school themselves... but the truth is, there's a lot of stuff about teaching that is counter-intuitive.  That's where the field of educational science comes in.  (Every teacher in North America must have a university degree in Education).</p><p>Anyways.  Yes, good teachers matter.  Yes, it can be taught.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm 100 \ % with you up until the point you said " you 've either got it or you do n't " The skills for classroom control are very teachable .
I 've had five years in the trenches at the chalkface and swear by the techniques taught in http : //fredjones.com .
Dr Jones is a clinical psychologist who studied the " you 've either got it or you do n't " theory.He studied 100 " got it " teachers,Then 100 " do n't got it " teachers.Wrote down what all of group one had in common , wrote down what all of group 2 had in common.Told group 2 to stop doing X and start doing Y.Then group 2 became " got it " teachers.The scientific method * does * apply to proper classroom delivery.I was a * damned * good teacher... in fact , the graduating class in my last year as a teacher received a 100 \ % pass rate on a nationally standardized exam .
Not only that , but we did it a whole school term early .
( Allowing many of them to resubmit their work for higher grades ) .I really loved the actual teaching... but the politics and bullshit .
standardized testing , school league tables based on test results , schools &amp; teachers bullied over test results that are more to do with postal code ( socioeconomic status ) than anything else were all contributing factors.Not to mention the constant stream of bullshit articles written by dumb fuckers who 've got an opinion about how teaching should be done but have no idea about the realities .
Politicians who think they know how teaching should be done .
Bollocks ! Everyone seems to think they know what a school should be like because they went to school themselves... but the truth is , there 's a lot of stuff about teaching that is counter-intuitive .
That 's where the field of educational science comes in .
( Every teacher in North America must have a university degree in Education ) .Anyways .
Yes , good teachers matter .
Yes , it can be taught .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm 100\% with you up until the point you said "you've either got it or you don't"The skills for classroom control are very teachable.
I've had five years in the trenches at the chalkface and swear by the techniques taught in http://fredjones.com.
Dr Jones is a clinical psychologist who studied the "you've either got it or you don't" theory.He studied 100 "got it" teachers,Then 100 "don't got it" teachers.Wrote down what all of group one had in common,  wrote down what all of group 2 had in common.Told group 2 to stop doing X and start doing Y.Then group 2 became "got it" teachers.The scientific method *does* apply to proper classroom delivery.I was a *damned* good teacher... in fact, the graduating class in my last year as a teacher received a 100\% pass rate on a nationally standardized exam.
Not only that, but we did it a whole school term early.
(Allowing many of them to resubmit their work for higher grades).I really loved the actual teaching... but the politics and bullshit.
standardized testing, school league tables based on test results, schools &amp; teachers bullied over test results that are more to do with postal code (socioeconomic status) than anything else were all contributing factors.Not to mention the constant stream of bullshit articles written by dumb fuckers who've got an opinion about how teaching should be done but have no idea about the realities.
Politicians who think they know how teaching should be done.
Bollocks!Everyone seems to think they know what a school should be like because they went to school themselves... but the truth is, there's a lot of stuff about teaching that is counter-intuitive.
That's where the field of educational science comes in.
(Every teacher in North America must have a university degree in Education).Anyways.
Yes, good teachers matter.
Yes, it can be taught.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382312</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382282</id>
	<title>Re:Better teachers and more funding !</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267905720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>we spend the money on Education and higher salaries so we can attract better people to teaching </i> <br>
&nbsp; <br>This sounds great on the surface; after all, one gets what one pays for, right?  Sorry, here's a collection of links to browse that will VERY quickly dispell that notion:<br>
&nbsp; <br>http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu\_spe\_per\_pri\_sch\_stu-spending-per-primary-school-student<br>http://www.epodunk.com/top10/per\_pupil/<br>http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66<br>http://www.heritage.org/research/Education/bg2179.cfm<br>
&nbsp; <br>Now, IF the hiring and firing of teachers worked like going to work at a private company then the spend more get better results method would not only work, it would have worked already.  Unfortunately, teaching is a political hot potato.  It's nearly impossible to fire underperforming teachers.  Just look at the hubbub in Rhoad Island a few weeks ago.  At the worst performing school in the state, the superintendent directed the teachers to work 20 minutes per day more.  They refused and threw a stink and the teachers' union is litigating the hell out of the district when the superintendent said they'd be laid off at the end of the year.  Here in Denver, where the city schools are wretched, a whopping total of 0.4 percent of teachers were not only bad enough but also behaved badly enough to get fired last year.  How many people in private sector jobs god laid off in a TYPICAL year, nevermind the crappy economic conditions like last year?  0.4\% indicates just how hard it is to get rid of bad ones.  And you can't have any performance based pay at all - the union threatens to have a fit every time that's seriously suggested.<br>
&nbsp; <br>The only way to force the teachers to get better at the public schools is to open up more competition.  This means vouchers for private schooling,  Everywhere this gets tried seriously, the public schools are forced to improve or go out of business.  The public teachers' union HATES vouchers though, so it's really hard to get such systems implemented.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>we spend the money on Education and higher salaries so we can attract better people to teaching   This sounds great on the surface ; after all , one gets what one pays for , right ?
Sorry , here 's a collection of links to browse that will VERY quickly dispell that notion :   http : //www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu \ _spe \ _per \ _pri \ _sch \ _stu-spending-per-primary-school-studenthttp : //www.epodunk.com/top10/per \ _pupil/http : //nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp ? id = 66http : //www.heritage.org/research/Education/bg2179.cfm   Now , IF the hiring and firing of teachers worked like going to work at a private company then the spend more get better results method would not only work , it would have worked already .
Unfortunately , teaching is a political hot potato .
It 's nearly impossible to fire underperforming teachers .
Just look at the hubbub in Rhoad Island a few weeks ago .
At the worst performing school in the state , the superintendent directed the teachers to work 20 minutes per day more .
They refused and threw a stink and the teachers ' union is litigating the hell out of the district when the superintendent said they 'd be laid off at the end of the year .
Here in Denver , where the city schools are wretched , a whopping total of 0.4 percent of teachers were not only bad enough but also behaved badly enough to get fired last year .
How many people in private sector jobs god laid off in a TYPICAL year , nevermind the crappy economic conditions like last year ?
0.4 \ % indicates just how hard it is to get rid of bad ones .
And you ca n't have any performance based pay at all - the union threatens to have a fit every time that 's seriously suggested .
  The only way to force the teachers to get better at the public schools is to open up more competition .
This means vouchers for private schooling , Everywhere this gets tried seriously , the public schools are forced to improve or go out of business .
The public teachers ' union HATES vouchers though , so it 's really hard to get such systems implemented .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>we spend the money on Education and higher salaries so we can attract better people to teaching  
  This sounds great on the surface; after all, one gets what one pays for, right?
Sorry, here's a collection of links to browse that will VERY quickly dispell that notion:
  http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu\_spe\_per\_pri\_sch\_stu-spending-per-primary-school-studenthttp://www.epodunk.com/top10/per\_pupil/http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=66http://www.heritage.org/research/Education/bg2179.cfm
  Now, IF the hiring and firing of teachers worked like going to work at a private company then the spend more get better results method would not only work, it would have worked already.
Unfortunately, teaching is a political hot potato.
It's nearly impossible to fire underperforming teachers.
Just look at the hubbub in Rhoad Island a few weeks ago.
At the worst performing school in the state, the superintendent directed the teachers to work 20 minutes per day more.
They refused and threw a stink and the teachers' union is litigating the hell out of the district when the superintendent said they'd be laid off at the end of the year.
Here in Denver, where the city schools are wretched, a whopping total of 0.4 percent of teachers were not only bad enough but also behaved badly enough to get fired last year.
How many people in private sector jobs god laid off in a TYPICAL year, nevermind the crappy economic conditions like last year?
0.4\% indicates just how hard it is to get rid of bad ones.
And you can't have any performance based pay at all - the union threatens to have a fit every time that's seriously suggested.
  The only way to force the teachers to get better at the public schools is to open up more competition.
This means vouchers for private schooling,  Everywhere this gets tried seriously, the public schools are forced to improve or go out of business.
The public teachers' union HATES vouchers though, so it's really hard to get such systems implemented.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382024</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382024</id>
	<title>Better teachers and more funding !</title>
	<author>Dolphinzilla</author>
	<datestamp>1267904100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How about instead of spending billions on idiotic projects like high speed rail in Florida (and elsewhere I am guessing) we spend the money on Education and higher salaries so we can attract better people to teaching (and get rid of the losers too !)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How about instead of spending billions on idiotic projects like high speed rail in Florida ( and elsewhere I am guessing ) we spend the money on Education and higher salaries so we can attract better people to teaching ( and get rid of the losers too !
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about instead of spending billions on idiotic projects like high speed rail in Florida (and elsewhere I am guessing) we spend the money on Education and higher salaries so we can attract better people to teaching (and get rid of the losers too !
)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382200</id>
	<title>What I don't see.</title>
	<author>headkase</author>
	<datestamp>1267905180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>How about exploring this for a bit: perhaps the student has bigger things to worry about.  Like say whether or not they are going to get shot on their way to class, or if that crack dealer is going to pummel them because one of their friends owes him.  You know, just sayin' that its a <i>whole</i> problem.  Drugs in schools are a huge problem and prohibition has only made it worse, education is what is needed, ironically, of wider issues than just the "teachers" in isolation.</htmltext>
<tokenext>How about exploring this for a bit : perhaps the student has bigger things to worry about .
Like say whether or not they are going to get shot on their way to class , or if that crack dealer is going to pummel them because one of their friends owes him .
You know , just sayin ' that its a whole problem .
Drugs in schools are a huge problem and prohibition has only made it worse , education is what is needed , ironically , of wider issues than just the " teachers " in isolation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about exploring this for a bit: perhaps the student has bigger things to worry about.
Like say whether or not they are going to get shot on their way to class, or if that crack dealer is going to pummel them because one of their friends owes him.
You know, just sayin' that its a whole problem.
Drugs in schools are a huge problem and prohibition has only made it worse, education is what is needed, ironically, of wider issues than just the "teachers" in isolation.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31388490</id>
	<title>Way too much protection</title>
	<author>Posting=!Working</author>
	<datestamp>1267967880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What other job do you get to have a lawyer defend you when they try to fire you?  I'm not talking about suing a company for wrongful termination after getting fired, but actually stopping you from getting fired. Does one exist?</p><p>Are there any other careers out there with a 1\% or lower chance of getting fired?</p><p>Have you noticed how they always make the idea of there being someone who controls your working conditions and employment sound ridiculous, while nearly everyone else in the world with a job has a boss? Why are unions always given a pass on this argument? Why doesn't every reporter call them out on this nonsense?  How about "You must be incredibly ignorant to act as though the working relationship shared by the vast, vast majority of people on this planet is unconscionable at it's core. Is this due to some mental defect or are you required to spew idiocy by the person who controls your working conditions and employment?"</p><p>You have a job.  You can lose that job if you don't do it, or do it poorly enough.  Someone has to make the decision to fire you, it doesn't congeal out of phlogiston, a person must be involved (even if they just told the computer to fire thousands.) Although the teachers' union  have shown us a vastly different way of doing things by making a process that takes minutes and costs nearly nothing for everyone else into a multi-year legal battle costing hundreds of thousands of dollars for the cash strapped educational system, it has only proven to be a much larger clusterfuck.</p><p>I love good teachers, there are teachers in my family, but why their jobs should be protected the way they are is just insane.  A guaranteed job for life after working 3 years? Are there even any other jobs for life anymore?  Can anyone say they're sure to be even in the same industry, let alone the same job, 10 years from now?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What other job do you get to have a lawyer defend you when they try to fire you ?
I 'm not talking about suing a company for wrongful termination after getting fired , but actually stopping you from getting fired .
Does one exist ? Are there any other careers out there with a 1 \ % or lower chance of getting fired ? Have you noticed how they always make the idea of there being someone who controls your working conditions and employment sound ridiculous , while nearly everyone else in the world with a job has a boss ?
Why are unions always given a pass on this argument ?
Why does n't every reporter call them out on this nonsense ?
How about " You must be incredibly ignorant to act as though the working relationship shared by the vast , vast majority of people on this planet is unconscionable at it 's core .
Is this due to some mental defect or are you required to spew idiocy by the person who controls your working conditions and employment ?
" You have a job .
You can lose that job if you do n't do it , or do it poorly enough .
Someone has to make the decision to fire you , it does n't congeal out of phlogiston , a person must be involved ( even if they just told the computer to fire thousands .
) Although the teachers ' union have shown us a vastly different way of doing things by making a process that takes minutes and costs nearly nothing for everyone else into a multi-year legal battle costing hundreds of thousands of dollars for the cash strapped educational system , it has only proven to be a much larger clusterfuck.I love good teachers , there are teachers in my family , but why their jobs should be protected the way they are is just insane .
A guaranteed job for life after working 3 years ?
Are there even any other jobs for life anymore ?
Can anyone say they 're sure to be even in the same industry , let alone the same job , 10 years from now ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What other job do you get to have a lawyer defend you when they try to fire you?
I'm not talking about suing a company for wrongful termination after getting fired, but actually stopping you from getting fired.
Does one exist?Are there any other careers out there with a 1\% or lower chance of getting fired?Have you noticed how they always make the idea of there being someone who controls your working conditions and employment sound ridiculous, while nearly everyone else in the world with a job has a boss?
Why are unions always given a pass on this argument?
Why doesn't every reporter call them out on this nonsense?
How about "You must be incredibly ignorant to act as though the working relationship shared by the vast, vast majority of people on this planet is unconscionable at it's core.
Is this due to some mental defect or are you required to spew idiocy by the person who controls your working conditions and employment?
"You have a job.
You can lose that job if you don't do it, or do it poorly enough.
Someone has to make the decision to fire you, it doesn't congeal out of phlogiston, a person must be involved (even if they just told the computer to fire thousands.
) Although the teachers' union  have shown us a vastly different way of doing things by making a process that takes minutes and costs nearly nothing for everyone else into a multi-year legal battle costing hundreds of thousands of dollars for the cash strapped educational system, it has only proven to be a much larger clusterfuck.I love good teachers, there are teachers in my family, but why their jobs should be protected the way they are is just insane.
A guaranteed job for life after working 3 years?
Are there even any other jobs for life anymore?
Can anyone say they're sure to be even in the same industry, let alone the same job, 10 years from now?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31383638</id>
	<title>The problem is far to complex to solve</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267871220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Roughly, you got the following groups involved:
</p><ul> <li>The parents: And that is already a complex group, because you got:
<ul> <li>The interested: These think they know better what is good for their kids then the school. Some are right, most are dead wrong. But in a class of 30+ kids, you will have some parents who love to tell you their job. For the<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/.ers this is the boss who can open IE, who will tell you how to run a server.</li><li>The dis-interested: See school as little more then a daycare. Get these kids out of my house. You might be amazed by how little parenting some kids get. And yes, some can be reached but you are not renaissance man. You got several dozen students and just don't have the time or even the training to drill down to each and everyone of them to see what their problem is. But don't worry, anyone else can tell you how easy it is, because they seen it in a 1.5 hour movie.</li><li>The nut-cases: Oh yeah, everything from the "my kid should not be thought about evolution/sex/different races/ww2" to the "my kid is a genius and you gave him an F because he ate the test-paper, I am going to kill you".</li></ul></li><li>The students: Everything from the brain-dead to the occasional genius but also from the criminally insane to the... actually no, that is all they are. All of society tells them they are free individuals and you need them to sit still for an hour and be measured. Go to fast and the dimwitted kids start to riot, to slow and the smart kids take their turn.</li><li>The politicians: Who always see education as a way to cut costs while at the same time introducing some new "fix-all" method who implementation costs have to come out of the existing budget that is still paying for the previous governments pet project.</li><li>The system: Schools are not like private industry, you can't really measure performance because if you did, you would be upsetting all the stupid parent/teachers who get graded "waste of space". Pay teachers according to their performance and none will teach your brain-dead spawn from hell. If you are rated per car your repair, you are not going to fix the clunker are you? You replace the wind-shield wipers on the Bentley and collect your bonus.</li><li>And finally the teachers themselves: Most start with big dreams that they will reach some kid and make him shine, and then they get into the system where hundreds of kids pass you by before you can blink your eyes and you are spending most of your time just trying to keep things from collapsing, all with a pay that is well below industry standards.</li></ul><p>And all the time, teachers see those who take their teaching talent to private industry make several times their pay, with none of the hazards of getting some parent upset or a student who desides to file charges because daddy touched them.
</p><p>No, if you want to fix education, you got to make a drastic cleaning action.
</p><ol> <li>Misbehaving kids, out of the classroom. yes, that means your little precious who kills kittens but he doesn't mean any harm.</li><li>Trim down the management. Less time wasting, more teaching.</li><li>Smaller classes, if you want kids to get personal attention, you must ensure there is time to do this.</li><li>Pay wages that compete with private industry. If nothing else, tax private industry wages to pay for it. Yeah, that is going to go overly well.</li><li>Allow teachers to function at their level. There are plenty of good subject teachers but who can't maintain discipline and others who can maintain discipline, but can't teach advanced classes. So give them the class they can teach. You don't send you guru programmer to talk to the customer do you?</li><li>Stop scale enlargement: Most education has been constantly changing, with teachers having no time to read the latest method before it is obsolete again. Adding constant re-orgs to that doesn't help.</li><li>And finally, except that education is a wasteful method. You throw in kids and money at one end and hope that 20-30 years later this start</li></ol></htmltext>
<tokenext>Roughly , you got the following groups involved : The parents : And that is already a complex group , because you got : The interested : These think they know better what is good for their kids then the school .
Some are right , most are dead wrong .
But in a class of 30 + kids , you will have some parents who love to tell you their job .
For the /.ers this is the boss who can open IE , who will tell you how to run a server.The dis-interested : See school as little more then a daycare .
Get these kids out of my house .
You might be amazed by how little parenting some kids get .
And yes , some can be reached but you are not renaissance man .
You got several dozen students and just do n't have the time or even the training to drill down to each and everyone of them to see what their problem is .
But do n't worry , anyone else can tell you how easy it is , because they seen it in a 1.5 hour movie.The nut-cases : Oh yeah , everything from the " my kid should not be thought about evolution/sex/different races/ww2 " to the " my kid is a genius and you gave him an F because he ate the test-paper , I am going to kill you " .The students : Everything from the brain-dead to the occasional genius but also from the criminally insane to the... actually no , that is all they are .
All of society tells them they are free individuals and you need them to sit still for an hour and be measured .
Go to fast and the dimwitted kids start to riot , to slow and the smart kids take their turn.The politicians : Who always see education as a way to cut costs while at the same time introducing some new " fix-all " method who implementation costs have to come out of the existing budget that is still paying for the previous governments pet project.The system : Schools are not like private industry , you ca n't really measure performance because if you did , you would be upsetting all the stupid parent/teachers who get graded " waste of space " .
Pay teachers according to their performance and none will teach your brain-dead spawn from hell .
If you are rated per car your repair , you are not going to fix the clunker are you ?
You replace the wind-shield wipers on the Bentley and collect your bonus.And finally the teachers themselves : Most start with big dreams that they will reach some kid and make him shine , and then they get into the system where hundreds of kids pass you by before you can blink your eyes and you are spending most of your time just trying to keep things from collapsing , all with a pay that is well below industry standards.And all the time , teachers see those who take their teaching talent to private industry make several times their pay , with none of the hazards of getting some parent upset or a student who desides to file charges because daddy touched them .
No , if you want to fix education , you got to make a drastic cleaning action .
Misbehaving kids , out of the classroom .
yes , that means your little precious who kills kittens but he does n't mean any harm.Trim down the management .
Less time wasting , more teaching.Smaller classes , if you want kids to get personal attention , you must ensure there is time to do this.Pay wages that compete with private industry .
If nothing else , tax private industry wages to pay for it .
Yeah , that is going to go overly well.Allow teachers to function at their level .
There are plenty of good subject teachers but who ca n't maintain discipline and others who can maintain discipline , but ca n't teach advanced classes .
So give them the class they can teach .
You do n't send you guru programmer to talk to the customer do you ? Stop scale enlargement : Most education has been constantly changing , with teachers having no time to read the latest method before it is obsolete again .
Adding constant re-orgs to that does n't help.And finally , except that education is a wasteful method .
You throw in kids and money at one end and hope that 20-30 years later this start</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Roughly, you got the following groups involved:
 The parents: And that is already a complex group, because you got:
 The interested: These think they know better what is good for their kids then the school.
Some are right, most are dead wrong.
But in a class of 30+ kids, you will have some parents who love to tell you their job.
For the /.ers this is the boss who can open IE, who will tell you how to run a server.The dis-interested: See school as little more then a daycare.
Get these kids out of my house.
You might be amazed by how little parenting some kids get.
And yes, some can be reached but you are not renaissance man.
You got several dozen students and just don't have the time or even the training to drill down to each and everyone of them to see what their problem is.
But don't worry, anyone else can tell you how easy it is, because they seen it in a 1.5 hour movie.The nut-cases: Oh yeah, everything from the "my kid should not be thought about evolution/sex/different races/ww2" to the "my kid is a genius and you gave him an F because he ate the test-paper, I am going to kill you".The students: Everything from the brain-dead to the occasional genius but also from the criminally insane to the... actually no, that is all they are.
All of society tells them they are free individuals and you need them to sit still for an hour and be measured.
Go to fast and the dimwitted kids start to riot, to slow and the smart kids take their turn.The politicians: Who always see education as a way to cut costs while at the same time introducing some new "fix-all" method who implementation costs have to come out of the existing budget that is still paying for the previous governments pet project.The system: Schools are not like private industry, you can't really measure performance because if you did, you would be upsetting all the stupid parent/teachers who get graded "waste of space".
Pay teachers according to their performance and none will teach your brain-dead spawn from hell.
If you are rated per car your repair, you are not going to fix the clunker are you?
You replace the wind-shield wipers on the Bentley and collect your bonus.And finally the teachers themselves: Most start with big dreams that they will reach some kid and make him shine, and then they get into the system where hundreds of kids pass you by before you can blink your eyes and you are spending most of your time just trying to keep things from collapsing, all with a pay that is well below industry standards.And all the time, teachers see those who take their teaching talent to private industry make several times their pay, with none of the hazards of getting some parent upset or a student who desides to file charges because daddy touched them.
No, if you want to fix education, you got to make a drastic cleaning action.
Misbehaving kids, out of the classroom.
yes, that means your little precious who kills kittens but he doesn't mean any harm.Trim down the management.
Less time wasting, more teaching.Smaller classes, if you want kids to get personal attention, you must ensure there is time to do this.Pay wages that compete with private industry.
If nothing else, tax private industry wages to pay for it.
Yeah, that is going to go overly well.Allow teachers to function at their level.
There are plenty of good subject teachers but who can't maintain discipline and others who can maintain discipline, but can't teach advanced classes.
So give them the class they can teach.
You don't send you guru programmer to talk to the customer do you?Stop scale enlargement: Most education has been constantly changing, with teachers having no time to read the latest method before it is obsolete again.
Adding constant re-orgs to that doesn't help.And finally, except that education is a wasteful method.
You throw in kids and money at one end and hope that 20-30 years later this start</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31383522</id>
	<title>Re:Good Teachers</title>
	<author>Lije Baley</author>
	<datestamp>1267870440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sorry, by "experienced", I meant "experienced in the real world", i.e. people with 10+ years of non-teaching work.  I'm also probably thinking more toward the science &amp; technology fields/subjects.  The bureaucracy and politics I refer to are of the excessive, non-constructive sort.  I would gladly take a pay cut to be able to have the opportunity to teach -- for the greater satisfaction of doing something more meaningful than coding yet another app that will be gone in 5 years, and for the ability to work in more geographically diverse environments. We don't need people who teach "for the money" any more than we needed dot-com boom programmers who wrote (poor) code "for the money".  What's holding back the properly-motivated folks is the fear of stepping into the cess-pool of educationally-irrelevant (beyond basic adminstration) activities that have consumed our schools.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sorry , by " experienced " , I meant " experienced in the real world " , i.e .
people with 10 + years of non-teaching work .
I 'm also probably thinking more toward the science &amp; technology fields/subjects .
The bureaucracy and politics I refer to are of the excessive , non-constructive sort .
I would gladly take a pay cut to be able to have the opportunity to teach -- for the greater satisfaction of doing something more meaningful than coding yet another app that will be gone in 5 years , and for the ability to work in more geographically diverse environments .
We do n't need people who teach " for the money " any more than we needed dot-com boom programmers who wrote ( poor ) code " for the money " .
What 's holding back the properly-motivated folks is the fear of stepping into the cess-pool of educationally-irrelevant ( beyond basic adminstration ) activities that have consumed our schools .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sorry, by "experienced", I meant "experienced in the real world", i.e.
people with 10+ years of non-teaching work.
I'm also probably thinking more toward the science &amp; technology fields/subjects.
The bureaucracy and politics I refer to are of the excessive, non-constructive sort.
I would gladly take a pay cut to be able to have the opportunity to teach -- for the greater satisfaction of doing something more meaningful than coding yet another app that will be gone in 5 years, and for the ability to work in more geographically diverse environments.
We don't need people who teach "for the money" any more than we needed dot-com boom programmers who wrote (poor) code "for the money".
What's holding back the properly-motivated folks is the fear of stepping into the cess-pool of educationally-irrelevant (beyond basic adminstration) activities that have consumed our schools.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382678</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31384482</id>
	<title>Idiots</title>
	<author>Quiet\_Desperation</author>
	<datestamp>1267878240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They're still looking for The One True Path and refusing the see the *real* elephant in the room; that there is no one path to education. After trying so many things, and see them work for some and fail for others, doesn't an intelligent person eventually conclude that there is no one size to fit all, no one ring to rule them all? Don't just admit what the results tell you, take a deep breath, and begin to formulate a way to teach different groups of children in different ways?</p><p>But, no, we have to have all the ideologues, with their liberal/conservative/flavorofthemonth manifestos^H^H^H^H^H manuals that *must* (MUST!!1!) be followed to the *L*E*T*T*E*R* and no dissension shall be tolerated krishna krishna rama rama! You want to solve the problem? Get Pfizer or someone to develop a pill that cures the mental illness of ideology- a political Zoloft of some sort. You'd be astonished how many problems of modern society would just evaporate.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They 're still looking for The One True Path and refusing the see the * real * elephant in the room ; that there is no one path to education .
After trying so many things , and see them work for some and fail for others , does n't an intelligent person eventually conclude that there is no one size to fit all , no one ring to rule them all ?
Do n't just admit what the results tell you , take a deep breath , and begin to formulate a way to teach different groups of children in different ways ? But , no , we have to have all the ideologues , with their liberal/conservative/flavorofthemonth manifestos ^ H ^ H ^ H ^ H ^ H manuals that * must * ( MUST ! ! 1 !
) be followed to the * L * E * T * T * E * R * and no dissension shall be tolerated krishna krishna rama rama !
You want to solve the problem ?
Get Pfizer or someone to develop a pill that cures the mental illness of ideology- a political Zoloft of some sort .
You 'd be astonished how many problems of modern society would just evaporate .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They're still looking for The One True Path and refusing the see the *real* elephant in the room; that there is no one path to education.
After trying so many things, and see them work for some and fail for others, doesn't an intelligent person eventually conclude that there is no one size to fit all, no one ring to rule them all?
Don't just admit what the results tell you, take a deep breath, and begin to formulate a way to teach different groups of children in different ways?But, no, we have to have all the ideologues, with their liberal/conservative/flavorofthemonth manifestos^H^H^H^H^H manuals that *must* (MUST!!1!
) be followed to the *L*E*T*T*E*R* and no dissension shall be tolerated krishna krishna rama rama!
You want to solve the problem?
Get Pfizer or someone to develop a pill that cures the mental illness of ideology- a political Zoloft of some sort.
You'd be astonished how many problems of modern society would just evaporate.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31383198</id>
	<title>Re:Good Teachers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267868100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are already plenty of teachers like this. Many of them stay forever because it's what they love. Many others leave because of the bureaucracy and crappy pay. NCLB has made things significantly worse and if you look at the numbers the vast majority of teachers quit within five years. When asked the most common reasons for leaving are having to deal with the inane bureaucracy, the toxicity of dealing with parents, and finally pay. My wife has just finished her fifth year of teaching, she dreads the changes that the state is going to be making to her school this year due to budget problems, and her least favorite part of the job are the paperwork, and the parents.</p><p>There is a ton of paperwork and it's very difficult to get students into programs that they desperately need. There is a stigma attached with being labeled as "special ed" or "special needs" so parents have forced the issue and administrators/districts have come up with convoluted methods of testing, rating levels etc that  prevent students from getting the help they need until its too late. In some cases it can take three to four years to get a student into the special needs program. At that point the student is so far behind it's too late. This can be for simple things such as reading recovery programs that simply give students additional help or tailored programs for improving reading comprehension or to overcome minor learning disabilities all the way up to the severely learning disabled. The end result is that all students suffer.</p><p>Then there are the parents. Most parents are just fine, but there's a percentage that assume the teacher is a moron and their children are little golden angles. Little Johnny couldn't have possibly lifted up that girls skirt she must be a liar and so are you Mrs. Teacher. My son can't possibly be failing, I'm a Dr. don't you know how much education I have! These people are completely oblivious to the fact that teachers not only have four year degrees, but are also required to continue their education to remain licensed. This means specialized training, continuing their college education etc. The number of teachers with masters degrees is actually quite large. Their education is also tailored to education, just like that Drs is tailored to medicine. Yet there seems to be this socially accepted stereotype that teachers are morons and as such it's ok to treat them like dirt. If you are educated then of course you know more than that teacher and could do a better job yourself.</p><p>I really don't understand how she puts up with it to be honest. I have significantly less education and make almost four times as much money. I don't have to deal with people treating me like crap, bad mouthing me in the press, and assuming I'm a moron. Even worse is that my work will provide no long term benefit to society it is simply a temporary transfer or wealth between individuals. My wifes job however is to try to help educate the next generation and mold them into people that can think critically, solve problems, and know how to find the answers to questions. While the legislature and unwashed masses attempt to turn education into a factory that churns out unthinking cogs that will consume and can be trained to do simple repetitive tasks. Too bad we shipped all the factories over seas so there's none to stick all these cogs in.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are already plenty of teachers like this .
Many of them stay forever because it 's what they love .
Many others leave because of the bureaucracy and crappy pay .
NCLB has made things significantly worse and if you look at the numbers the vast majority of teachers quit within five years .
When asked the most common reasons for leaving are having to deal with the inane bureaucracy , the toxicity of dealing with parents , and finally pay .
My wife has just finished her fifth year of teaching , she dreads the changes that the state is going to be making to her school this year due to budget problems , and her least favorite part of the job are the paperwork , and the parents.There is a ton of paperwork and it 's very difficult to get students into programs that they desperately need .
There is a stigma attached with being labeled as " special ed " or " special needs " so parents have forced the issue and administrators/districts have come up with convoluted methods of testing , rating levels etc that prevent students from getting the help they need until its too late .
In some cases it can take three to four years to get a student into the special needs program .
At that point the student is so far behind it 's too late .
This can be for simple things such as reading recovery programs that simply give students additional help or tailored programs for improving reading comprehension or to overcome minor learning disabilities all the way up to the severely learning disabled .
The end result is that all students suffer.Then there are the parents .
Most parents are just fine , but there 's a percentage that assume the teacher is a moron and their children are little golden angles .
Little Johnny could n't have possibly lifted up that girls skirt she must be a liar and so are you Mrs. Teacher. My son ca n't possibly be failing , I 'm a Dr. do n't you know how much education I have !
These people are completely oblivious to the fact that teachers not only have four year degrees , but are also required to continue their education to remain licensed .
This means specialized training , continuing their college education etc .
The number of teachers with masters degrees is actually quite large .
Their education is also tailored to education , just like that Drs is tailored to medicine .
Yet there seems to be this socially accepted stereotype that teachers are morons and as such it 's ok to treat them like dirt .
If you are educated then of course you know more than that teacher and could do a better job yourself.I really do n't understand how she puts up with it to be honest .
I have significantly less education and make almost four times as much money .
I do n't have to deal with people treating me like crap , bad mouthing me in the press , and assuming I 'm a moron .
Even worse is that my work will provide no long term benefit to society it is simply a temporary transfer or wealth between individuals .
My wifes job however is to try to help educate the next generation and mold them into people that can think critically , solve problems , and know how to find the answers to questions .
While the legislature and unwashed masses attempt to turn education into a factory that churns out unthinking cogs that will consume and can be trained to do simple repetitive tasks .
Too bad we shipped all the factories over seas so there 's none to stick all these cogs in .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are already plenty of teachers like this.
Many of them stay forever because it's what they love.
Many others leave because of the bureaucracy and crappy pay.
NCLB has made things significantly worse and if you look at the numbers the vast majority of teachers quit within five years.
When asked the most common reasons for leaving are having to deal with the inane bureaucracy, the toxicity of dealing with parents, and finally pay.
My wife has just finished her fifth year of teaching, she dreads the changes that the state is going to be making to her school this year due to budget problems, and her least favorite part of the job are the paperwork, and the parents.There is a ton of paperwork and it's very difficult to get students into programs that they desperately need.
There is a stigma attached with being labeled as "special ed" or "special needs" so parents have forced the issue and administrators/districts have come up with convoluted methods of testing, rating levels etc that  prevent students from getting the help they need until its too late.
In some cases it can take three to four years to get a student into the special needs program.
At that point the student is so far behind it's too late.
This can be for simple things such as reading recovery programs that simply give students additional help or tailored programs for improving reading comprehension or to overcome minor learning disabilities all the way up to the severely learning disabled.
The end result is that all students suffer.Then there are the parents.
Most parents are just fine, but there's a percentage that assume the teacher is a moron and their children are little golden angles.
Little Johnny couldn't have possibly lifted up that girls skirt she must be a liar and so are you Mrs. Teacher. My son can't possibly be failing, I'm a Dr. don't you know how much education I have!
These people are completely oblivious to the fact that teachers not only have four year degrees, but are also required to continue their education to remain licensed.
This means specialized training, continuing their college education etc.
The number of teachers with masters degrees is actually quite large.
Their education is also tailored to education, just like that Drs is tailored to medicine.
Yet there seems to be this socially accepted stereotype that teachers are morons and as such it's ok to treat them like dirt.
If you are educated then of course you know more than that teacher and could do a better job yourself.I really don't understand how she puts up with it to be honest.
I have significantly less education and make almost four times as much money.
I don't have to deal with people treating me like crap, bad mouthing me in the press, and assuming I'm a moron.
Even worse is that my work will provide no long term benefit to society it is simply a temporary transfer or wealth between individuals.
My wifes job however is to try to help educate the next generation and mold them into people that can think critically, solve problems, and know how to find the answers to questions.
While the legislature and unwashed masses attempt to turn education into a factory that churns out unthinking cogs that will consume and can be trained to do simple repetitive tasks.
Too bad we shipped all the factories over seas so there's none to stick all these cogs in.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382178</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31383692</id>
	<title>Place blame where it belongs</title>
	<author>ErichTheRed</author>
	<datestamp>1267871760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm not a teacher, but I've seriously considered it as a second career after the entire stateside IT industry collapses. Everyone loves to blame teachers and the teachers' unions for causing all the problems. There has been a lot of talk recently about "paying for performance." In other words, the teacher would get a different salary or a bonus based on how well the students perform on various tests, the graduation rate, etc. Others, especially around my area have gotten extremely worked up over high property taxes, citing the lazy greedy teachers and their union for "stealing their tax money."</p><p>There are some parents who really care about their kids' education. Others use school as a free babysitting service, and do nothing outside of the school day to motivate their kids to do well. If your school has tons of the second kind of kid, pay-for-performance does not work well. No matter what the teacher does, if the student decides they don't care what kind of grades they get, nothing is going to make the kid improve. The teachers in crappy schools will get crappy pay, the profession won't attract smart people, and the cycle continues.</p><p>Here's my two thoughts on the subject.</p><p>First, teachers deserve to be paid well, especially those who have put up with peoples' kids for many years. You wouldn't deny a mid-career to end-of-career corporate professional a decent salary, would you? If you don't pay your teachers well, you're not going to get good people wanting to do the job. If you've been interviewing or hiring IT folks for the last 5-7 years, you may have noticed quality issues. I think that's totally attributable to the lower salaries people are paying. If you were smart and had your choice of jobs, wouldn't you choose something more stable than IT, even if you really enjoyed it? There are still really good people making decent IT salaries, but those jobs are getting harder and harder to come by. If you set the bar too low, recruiting gets tougher. "Hey, want to work a job that's high stress, sometimes 60 hours a week, where you get no respect?" Not a good sales pitch...</p><p>Second, time-in-grade is still the fairest way to pay people. You may get some lazy hangers-on, but you see this in companies as well. I've noticed a couple people in my various corporate jobs who carved out a comfortable niche for themselves and just stopped working. Yet, these people continue to get raises while new hires with similar experience levels are paid less. This pay for performance scheme will backfire on people...instead of attracting the best and the brightest, you're going to burn them out of the profession.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not a teacher , but I 've seriously considered it as a second career after the entire stateside IT industry collapses .
Everyone loves to blame teachers and the teachers ' unions for causing all the problems .
There has been a lot of talk recently about " paying for performance .
" In other words , the teacher would get a different salary or a bonus based on how well the students perform on various tests , the graduation rate , etc .
Others , especially around my area have gotten extremely worked up over high property taxes , citing the lazy greedy teachers and their union for " stealing their tax money .
" There are some parents who really care about their kids ' education .
Others use school as a free babysitting service , and do nothing outside of the school day to motivate their kids to do well .
If your school has tons of the second kind of kid , pay-for-performance does not work well .
No matter what the teacher does , if the student decides they do n't care what kind of grades they get , nothing is going to make the kid improve .
The teachers in crappy schools will get crappy pay , the profession wo n't attract smart people , and the cycle continues.Here 's my two thoughts on the subject.First , teachers deserve to be paid well , especially those who have put up with peoples ' kids for many years .
You would n't deny a mid-career to end-of-career corporate professional a decent salary , would you ?
If you do n't pay your teachers well , you 're not going to get good people wanting to do the job .
If you 've been interviewing or hiring IT folks for the last 5-7 years , you may have noticed quality issues .
I think that 's totally attributable to the lower salaries people are paying .
If you were smart and had your choice of jobs , would n't you choose something more stable than IT , even if you really enjoyed it ?
There are still really good people making decent IT salaries , but those jobs are getting harder and harder to come by .
If you set the bar too low , recruiting gets tougher .
" Hey , want to work a job that 's high stress , sometimes 60 hours a week , where you get no respect ?
" Not a good sales pitch...Second , time-in-grade is still the fairest way to pay people .
You may get some lazy hangers-on , but you see this in companies as well .
I 've noticed a couple people in my various corporate jobs who carved out a comfortable niche for themselves and just stopped working .
Yet , these people continue to get raises while new hires with similar experience levels are paid less .
This pay for performance scheme will backfire on people...instead of attracting the best and the brightest , you 're going to burn them out of the profession .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not a teacher, but I've seriously considered it as a second career after the entire stateside IT industry collapses.
Everyone loves to blame teachers and the teachers' unions for causing all the problems.
There has been a lot of talk recently about "paying for performance.
" In other words, the teacher would get a different salary or a bonus based on how well the students perform on various tests, the graduation rate, etc.
Others, especially around my area have gotten extremely worked up over high property taxes, citing the lazy greedy teachers and their union for "stealing their tax money.
"There are some parents who really care about their kids' education.
Others use school as a free babysitting service, and do nothing outside of the school day to motivate their kids to do well.
If your school has tons of the second kind of kid, pay-for-performance does not work well.
No matter what the teacher does, if the student decides they don't care what kind of grades they get, nothing is going to make the kid improve.
The teachers in crappy schools will get crappy pay, the profession won't attract smart people, and the cycle continues.Here's my two thoughts on the subject.First, teachers deserve to be paid well, especially those who have put up with peoples' kids for many years.
You wouldn't deny a mid-career to end-of-career corporate professional a decent salary, would you?
If you don't pay your teachers well, you're not going to get good people wanting to do the job.
If you've been interviewing or hiring IT folks for the last 5-7 years, you may have noticed quality issues.
I think that's totally attributable to the lower salaries people are paying.
If you were smart and had your choice of jobs, wouldn't you choose something more stable than IT, even if you really enjoyed it?
There are still really good people making decent IT salaries, but those jobs are getting harder and harder to come by.
If you set the bar too low, recruiting gets tougher.
"Hey, want to work a job that's high stress, sometimes 60 hours a week, where you get no respect?
" Not a good sales pitch...Second, time-in-grade is still the fairest way to pay people.
You may get some lazy hangers-on, but you see this in companies as well.
I've noticed a couple people in my various corporate jobs who carved out a comfortable niche for themselves and just stopped working.
Yet, these people continue to get raises while new hires with similar experience levels are paid less.
This pay for performance scheme will backfire on people...instead of attracting the best and the brightest, you're going to burn them out of the profession.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31383262</id>
	<title>The System is Broken...(rant from a teacher)</title>
	<author>ZephyrQ</author>
	<datestamp>1267868580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have been teaching over 10 years.  Special Education.  Behavior students.  High School.  2nd Career.</p><p>And I'm about to quit.</p><p>Paying more money only perpetuates the bureaucracy that puts bad teachers in place.  I am tired of working hard only to have more work (and restrictions) put on me because I am able to do it.  I am tired of having to dodge lawsuits from parents because I can not prevent their 16 year old from failing or committing felonies.  I am tired of other teachers telling me that I work too hard but that they could never do what I do.</p><p>And...I am tired of having to defend myself from people who have never spent more than an hour in a classroom telling me that I'm not smart/skilled/politically adept enough to function as a teacher.  (I won't bore you with a resume proving I'm smart enough...the ACT score of 30 from 25 years ago should be sufficient).</p><p>I know who the bad teachers are.  Unfortunately, they are also the most politically/socially adept.  They are also the ones who are quick to remind administration that I'm not as good as they are (yet I put in 80 hour work weeks).</p><p>We are not rewarded for doing well.  We are rewarded for not being a problem.  Squeaky wheels get greater scrutiny as does classrooms with children whose parents threaten lawsuits.  Those are the teachers who get disciplined.</p><p>Want to improve schools and/or teaching?  Scrap the system and rebuild from the ground up.</p><p>Feel free to continue to blame bad teachers or nurture or poverty or whatever.  Reality is that none of it will appreciably change unless enough people realize that the system that served them is no longer serving their children.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have been teaching over 10 years .
Special Education .
Behavior students .
High School .
2nd Career.And I 'm about to quit.Paying more money only perpetuates the bureaucracy that puts bad teachers in place .
I am tired of working hard only to have more work ( and restrictions ) put on me because I am able to do it .
I am tired of having to dodge lawsuits from parents because I can not prevent their 16 year old from failing or committing felonies .
I am tired of other teachers telling me that I work too hard but that they could never do what I do.And...I am tired of having to defend myself from people who have never spent more than an hour in a classroom telling me that I 'm not smart/skilled/politically adept enough to function as a teacher .
( I wo n't bore you with a resume proving I 'm smart enough...the ACT score of 30 from 25 years ago should be sufficient ) .I know who the bad teachers are .
Unfortunately , they are also the most politically/socially adept .
They are also the ones who are quick to remind administration that I 'm not as good as they are ( yet I put in 80 hour work weeks ) .We are not rewarded for doing well .
We are rewarded for not being a problem .
Squeaky wheels get greater scrutiny as does classrooms with children whose parents threaten lawsuits .
Those are the teachers who get disciplined.Want to improve schools and/or teaching ?
Scrap the system and rebuild from the ground up.Feel free to continue to blame bad teachers or nurture or poverty or whatever .
Reality is that none of it will appreciably change unless enough people realize that the system that served them is no longer serving their children .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have been teaching over 10 years.
Special Education.
Behavior students.
High School.
2nd Career.And I'm about to quit.Paying more money only perpetuates the bureaucracy that puts bad teachers in place.
I am tired of working hard only to have more work (and restrictions) put on me because I am able to do it.
I am tired of having to dodge lawsuits from parents because I can not prevent their 16 year old from failing or committing felonies.
I am tired of other teachers telling me that I work too hard but that they could never do what I do.And...I am tired of having to defend myself from people who have never spent more than an hour in a classroom telling me that I'm not smart/skilled/politically adept enough to function as a teacher.
(I won't bore you with a resume proving I'm smart enough...the ACT score of 30 from 25 years ago should be sufficient).I know who the bad teachers are.
Unfortunately, they are also the most politically/socially adept.
They are also the ones who are quick to remind administration that I'm not as good as they are (yet I put in 80 hour work weeks).We are not rewarded for doing well.
We are rewarded for not being a problem.
Squeaky wheels get greater scrutiny as does classrooms with children whose parents threaten lawsuits.
Those are the teachers who get disciplined.Want to improve schools and/or teaching?
Scrap the system and rebuild from the ground up.Feel free to continue to blame bad teachers or nurture or poverty or whatever.
Reality is that none of it will appreciably change unless enough people realize that the system that served them is no longer serving their children.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382908</id>
	<title>Teachers want this more than Administrators</title>
	<author>dcollins</author>
	<datestamp>1267866300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's well-known, and also my experience, that administrators don't really care about the quality of the teaching in classrooms. To them it's just a product, and as long as the "sale" is being made, job done. Consider the same dynamics in a helpdesk, phone support situation; what is more profitable?</p><p>Consider my sig. First, I had a college teaching job where the union was non-functional and reviews were given by a dean. Result: I had to beg and plead for an assistant dean to come into my room once, ever, for the supposed required review; he stayed for 5 minutes and scribbled something utterly nonsensical about the CS lesson, "Dan's great", that's it. Now, I teach at a school where the union is strongly involved, and every semester I get a rotating series of fellow professors sitting in my classroom for a whole hour, writing a 6-page report, and having a discussion with me about my classroom management, in a very detailed and sometimes picky manner.</p><p><i>American Educator</i> magazine, Fall 2008, had an issue about the effects of teacher governance and peer review. One interesting finding: <b>When the union and teachers are involved in reviews, they are FAR MORE likely to fire teachers than administrators or principals.</b> Teachers care about the profession, and the students, and their reputation; just like doctors or lawyers or engineers. But administrators have other priorities.</p><p>Read the article here ("Taking the Lead", p. 37): <a href="http://archive.aft.org/pubs-reports/american\_educator/issues/fall2008/index.htm" title="aft.org">http://archive.aft.org/pubs-reports/american\_educator/issues/fall2008/index.htm</a> [aft.org]</p><p>Look, in the last two decades there's been a concerted Chicago-school-type program to wrest control away from teachers and corporatize schools, reducing teachers to low-paid, unskilled at-will labor. Full-time teachers have been replaced by part-time contingent faculty to save costs (example: community college instructors in 1997 were 54\% tenured full-time, now just 43\%). The majority of funding increases go to grow administration jobs, not in-classroom teaching (growing 41\% between 1997 and 2007). Source, AFT State of Higher Education Worforce: <a href="http://www.aftface.org/storage/face/documents/ameracad\_report\_97-07for\_web.pdf" title="aftface.org">http://www.aftface.org/storage/face/documents/ameracad\_report\_97-07for\_web.pdf</a> [aftface.org]</p><p>In a software company, the PHB's tend to want to take decision-making away from the engineers, and the result is an inefficiently run company (but in the short-run, profitable for the bosses). The exact same thing is happening right now with the PHB's of the school system trying to squeeze out teacher peer review and shared governance, for the same reasons, with all available data showing the exact same end-results. The more they squeeze, the more students will slip through their fingers. But like a lot of American social issues, the evidence can't get through the wild-eyed tea-party propaganda.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's well-known , and also my experience , that administrators do n't really care about the quality of the teaching in classrooms .
To them it 's just a product , and as long as the " sale " is being made , job done .
Consider the same dynamics in a helpdesk , phone support situation ; what is more profitable ? Consider my sig .
First , I had a college teaching job where the union was non-functional and reviews were given by a dean .
Result : I had to beg and plead for an assistant dean to come into my room once , ever , for the supposed required review ; he stayed for 5 minutes and scribbled something utterly nonsensical about the CS lesson , " Dan 's great " , that 's it .
Now , I teach at a school where the union is strongly involved , and every semester I get a rotating series of fellow professors sitting in my classroom for a whole hour , writing a 6-page report , and having a discussion with me about my classroom management , in a very detailed and sometimes picky manner.American Educator magazine , Fall 2008 , had an issue about the effects of teacher governance and peer review .
One interesting finding : When the union and teachers are involved in reviews , they are FAR MORE likely to fire teachers than administrators or principals .
Teachers care about the profession , and the students , and their reputation ; just like doctors or lawyers or engineers .
But administrators have other priorities.Read the article here ( " Taking the Lead " , p. 37 ) : http : //archive.aft.org/pubs-reports/american \ _educator/issues/fall2008/index.htm [ aft.org ] Look , in the last two decades there 's been a concerted Chicago-school-type program to wrest control away from teachers and corporatize schools , reducing teachers to low-paid , unskilled at-will labor .
Full-time teachers have been replaced by part-time contingent faculty to save costs ( example : community college instructors in 1997 were 54 \ % tenured full-time , now just 43 \ % ) .
The majority of funding increases go to grow administration jobs , not in-classroom teaching ( growing 41 \ % between 1997 and 2007 ) .
Source , AFT State of Higher Education Worforce : http : //www.aftface.org/storage/face/documents/ameracad \ _report \ _97-07for \ _web.pdf [ aftface.org ] In a software company , the PHB 's tend to want to take decision-making away from the engineers , and the result is an inefficiently run company ( but in the short-run , profitable for the bosses ) .
The exact same thing is happening right now with the PHB 's of the school system trying to squeeze out teacher peer review and shared governance , for the same reasons , with all available data showing the exact same end-results .
The more they squeeze , the more students will slip through their fingers .
But like a lot of American social issues , the evidence ca n't get through the wild-eyed tea-party propaganda .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's well-known, and also my experience, that administrators don't really care about the quality of the teaching in classrooms.
To them it's just a product, and as long as the "sale" is being made, job done.
Consider the same dynamics in a helpdesk, phone support situation; what is more profitable?Consider my sig.
First, I had a college teaching job where the union was non-functional and reviews were given by a dean.
Result: I had to beg and plead for an assistant dean to come into my room once, ever, for the supposed required review; he stayed for 5 minutes and scribbled something utterly nonsensical about the CS lesson, "Dan's great", that's it.
Now, I teach at a school where the union is strongly involved, and every semester I get a rotating series of fellow professors sitting in my classroom for a whole hour, writing a 6-page report, and having a discussion with me about my classroom management, in a very detailed and sometimes picky manner.American Educator magazine, Fall 2008, had an issue about the effects of teacher governance and peer review.
One interesting finding: When the union and teachers are involved in reviews, they are FAR MORE likely to fire teachers than administrators or principals.
Teachers care about the profession, and the students, and their reputation; just like doctors or lawyers or engineers.
But administrators have other priorities.Read the article here ("Taking the Lead", p. 37): http://archive.aft.org/pubs-reports/american\_educator/issues/fall2008/index.htm [aft.org]Look, in the last two decades there's been a concerted Chicago-school-type program to wrest control away from teachers and corporatize schools, reducing teachers to low-paid, unskilled at-will labor.
Full-time teachers have been replaced by part-time contingent faculty to save costs (example: community college instructors in 1997 were 54\% tenured full-time, now just 43\%).
The majority of funding increases go to grow administration jobs, not in-classroom teaching (growing 41\% between 1997 and 2007).
Source, AFT State of Higher Education Worforce: http://www.aftface.org/storage/face/documents/ameracad\_report\_97-07for\_web.pdf [aftface.org]In a software company, the PHB's tend to want to take decision-making away from the engineers, and the result is an inefficiently run company (but in the short-run, profitable for the bosses).
The exact same thing is happening right now with the PHB's of the school system trying to squeeze out teacher peer review and shared governance, for the same reasons, with all available data showing the exact same end-results.
The more they squeeze, the more students will slip through their fingers.
But like a lot of American social issues, the evidence can't get through the wild-eyed tea-party propaganda.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31383646</id>
	<title>Re:overwhelming social and economic forces</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267871400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is basically right on.  There was research published recently in California that showed that kids from Hispanic families start falling behind at age 2 (not a typo) and that it only gets worse with time.  The reason is likely what the parent said - mostly poor families with no book culture.  Kids grow up without books and by the time they reach school there is little that a teacher can do.  Of course, a really great and charismatic teacher could have a great impact but those are likely quite rare.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp;</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is basically right on .
There was research published recently in California that showed that kids from Hispanic families start falling behind at age 2 ( not a typo ) and that it only gets worse with time .
The reason is likely what the parent said - mostly poor families with no book culture .
Kids grow up without books and by the time they reach school there is little that a teacher can do .
Of course , a really great and charismatic teacher could have a great impact but those are likely quite rare .
   </tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is basically right on.
There was research published recently in California that showed that kids from Hispanic families start falling behind at age 2 (not a typo) and that it only gets worse with time.
The reason is likely what the parent said - mostly poor families with no book culture.
Kids grow up without books and by the time they reach school there is little that a teacher can do.
Of course, a really great and charismatic teacher could have a great impact but those are likely quite rare.
   </sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382406</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31383906</id>
	<title>So Who's Going to Put...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267873320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...their money where their mouth is? Esp. the people complaining about how "paying more" doesn't produce better teachers. How about giving up your own high-paying job to take a 75\% salary cut and join a profession where you're expected to buy supplies for your students? Hands up!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...their money where their mouth is ?
Esp. the people complaining about how " paying more " does n't produce better teachers .
How about giving up your own high-paying job to take a 75 \ % salary cut and join a profession where you 're expected to buy supplies for your students ?
Hands up !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...their money where their mouth is?
Esp. the people complaining about how "paying more" doesn't produce better teachers.
How about giving up your own high-paying job to take a 75\% salary cut and join a profession where you're expected to buy supplies for your students?
Hands up!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31388452</id>
	<title>Missing the point; schools exist to dumb down...</title>
	<author>Paul Fernhout</author>
	<datestamp>1267967520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>See: "Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling" by John Taylor Gatto<br> <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Dumbing-Down-Curriculum-Compulsory-Schooling/dp/0865714487" title="amazon.com">http://www.amazon.com/Dumbing-Down-Curriculum-Compulsory-Schooling/dp/0865714487</a> [amazon.com] </p><p>The primary reason school was created was to dumb people down as a form of social control to create factory workers (and soldiers) for a 19th century factory-based economy, according to NYS Teacher of the Year John Taylor Gatto.<br>
  <a href="http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/16a.htm" title="johntaylorgatto.com">http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/16a.htm</a> [johntaylorgatto.com] <br>"""<br>As soon as you break free of the orbit of received wisdom you have little trouble figuring out why, in the nature of things, government schools and those private schools which imitate the government model have to make most children dumb, allowing only a few to escape the trap. The problem stems from the structure of our economy and social organization. When you start with such pyramid-shaped givens and then ask yourself what kind of schooling they would require to maintain themselves, any mystery dissipates--these things are inhuman conspiracies all right, but not conspiracies of people against people, although circumstances make them appear so. School is a conflict pitting the needs of social machinery against the needs of the human spirit. It is a war of mechanism against flesh and blood, self-maintaining social mechanisms that only require human architects to get launched.<br>"""</p><p>Or:<br>
  "The 7-Lesson Schoolteacher"<br>
 <a href="http://www.newciv.org/whole/schoolteacher.txt" title="newciv.org">http://www.newciv.org/whole/schoolteacher.txt</a> [newciv.org] <br>"""<br>Look again at the seven lessons of schoolteaching:  confusion, class assignment, dulled responses, emotional and intellectual dependency, conditional self-esteem, surveillance -- all of these things are good training for permanent underclasses, people derived forever of finding the center of their own special genius.  And in later years it became the training shaken loose from even its own original logic -- to regulate the poor; since the 1920s the growth of the school bureaucracy and the less visible growth of a horde of industries that profit from schooling just exactly as it is, has enlarged this institution's original grasp to where it began to seize the sons and daughters of the middle classes.<br>"""</p><p>So, that's why pouring more money into schools does not work, because they just do this dumbing down process better. Oh, you may get kids stuffed with more facts, you may get kids with better grades, you may get kids who are better are regurgitating state doctrine, but you won't get good human beings who can have a happy whole life. A whole person comes from an engagement with the whole of life, not from doing paperwork all day in a minimum security day-prison from ages four to eighteen. The entire system must be changed from assumptions through practices, and school is so resistant to fundamental change that the best approach is probably just to shut it down entirely and start over in new ways using the same resources in entirely different ways.</p><p>For example, the central pillar of most schooling, grading, is harmful to children and communities in all sorts of ways:<br>
 "From Degrading to De-Grading"<br>
  <a href="http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/fdtd-g.htm" title="alfiekohn.org">http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/fdtd-g.htm</a> [alfiekohn.org] <br>"""<br>1.  Grades tend to reduce students' interest in the learning itself.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...<br>2.  Grades tend to reduce students' preference for challenging tasks.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...<br>3.  Grades tend to reduce the quality of students' thinking.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...<br>4. Grades aren't valid, reliable, or objective.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...<br>5. Grades distort the curriculum.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...<br>6. Grades waste a lot of time that could be spent on learning.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...<br>7. Grades encourage cheating.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...<br>8. Grades spoil teachers' relationships</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>See : " Dumbing Us Down : The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling " by John Taylor Gatto http : //www.amazon.com/Dumbing-Down-Curriculum-Compulsory-Schooling/dp/0865714487 [ amazon.com ] The primary reason school was created was to dumb people down as a form of social control to create factory workers ( and soldiers ) for a 19th century factory-based economy , according to NYS Teacher of the Year John Taylor Gatto .
http : //www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/16a.htm [ johntaylorgatto.com ] " " " As soon as you break free of the orbit of received wisdom you have little trouble figuring out why , in the nature of things , government schools and those private schools which imitate the government model have to make most children dumb , allowing only a few to escape the trap .
The problem stems from the structure of our economy and social organization .
When you start with such pyramid-shaped givens and then ask yourself what kind of schooling they would require to maintain themselves , any mystery dissipates--these things are inhuman conspiracies all right , but not conspiracies of people against people , although circumstances make them appear so .
School is a conflict pitting the needs of social machinery against the needs of the human spirit .
It is a war of mechanism against flesh and blood , self-maintaining social mechanisms that only require human architects to get launched .
" " " Or : " The 7-Lesson Schoolteacher " http : //www.newciv.org/whole/schoolteacher.txt [ newciv.org ] " " " Look again at the seven lessons of schoolteaching : confusion , class assignment , dulled responses , emotional and intellectual dependency , conditional self-esteem , surveillance -- all of these things are good training for permanent underclasses , people derived forever of finding the center of their own special genius .
And in later years it became the training shaken loose from even its own original logic -- to regulate the poor ; since the 1920s the growth of the school bureaucracy and the less visible growth of a horde of industries that profit from schooling just exactly as it is , has enlarged this institution 's original grasp to where it began to seize the sons and daughters of the middle classes .
" " " So , that 's why pouring more money into schools does not work , because they just do this dumbing down process better .
Oh , you may get kids stuffed with more facts , you may get kids with better grades , you may get kids who are better are regurgitating state doctrine , but you wo n't get good human beings who can have a happy whole life .
A whole person comes from an engagement with the whole of life , not from doing paperwork all day in a minimum security day-prison from ages four to eighteen .
The entire system must be changed from assumptions through practices , and school is so resistant to fundamental change that the best approach is probably just to shut it down entirely and start over in new ways using the same resources in entirely different ways.For example , the central pillar of most schooling , grading , is harmful to children and communities in all sorts of ways : " From Degrading to De-Grading " http : //www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/fdtd-g.htm [ alfiekohn.org ] " " " 1 .
Grades tend to reduce students ' interest in the learning itself .
...2. Grades tend to reduce students ' preference for challenging tasks .
...3. Grades tend to reduce the quality of students ' thinking .
...4. Grades are n't valid , reliable , or objective .
...5. Grades distort the curriculum .
...6. Grades waste a lot of time that could be spent on learning .
...7. Grades encourage cheating .
...8. Grades spoil teachers ' relationships</tokentext>
<sentencetext>See: "Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling" by John Taylor Gatto http://www.amazon.com/Dumbing-Down-Curriculum-Compulsory-Schooling/dp/0865714487 [amazon.com] The primary reason school was created was to dumb people down as a form of social control to create factory workers (and soldiers) for a 19th century factory-based economy, according to NYS Teacher of the Year John Taylor Gatto.
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/16a.htm [johntaylorgatto.com] """As soon as you break free of the orbit of received wisdom you have little trouble figuring out why, in the nature of things, government schools and those private schools which imitate the government model have to make most children dumb, allowing only a few to escape the trap.
The problem stems from the structure of our economy and social organization.
When you start with such pyramid-shaped givens and then ask yourself what kind of schooling they would require to maintain themselves, any mystery dissipates--these things are inhuman conspiracies all right, but not conspiracies of people against people, although circumstances make them appear so.
School is a conflict pitting the needs of social machinery against the needs of the human spirit.
It is a war of mechanism against flesh and blood, self-maintaining social mechanisms that only require human architects to get launched.
"""Or:
  "The 7-Lesson Schoolteacher"
 http://www.newciv.org/whole/schoolteacher.txt [newciv.org] """Look again at the seven lessons of schoolteaching:  confusion, class assignment, dulled responses, emotional and intellectual dependency, conditional self-esteem, surveillance -- all of these things are good training for permanent underclasses, people derived forever of finding the center of their own special genius.
And in later years it became the training shaken loose from even its own original logic -- to regulate the poor; since the 1920s the growth of the school bureaucracy and the less visible growth of a horde of industries that profit from schooling just exactly as it is, has enlarged this institution's original grasp to where it began to seize the sons and daughters of the middle classes.
"""So, that's why pouring more money into schools does not work, because they just do this dumbing down process better.
Oh, you may get kids stuffed with more facts, you may get kids with better grades, you may get kids who are better are regurgitating state doctrine, but you won't get good human beings who can have a happy whole life.
A whole person comes from an engagement with the whole of life, not from doing paperwork all day in a minimum security day-prison from ages four to eighteen.
The entire system must be changed from assumptions through practices, and school is so resistant to fundamental change that the best approach is probably just to shut it down entirely and start over in new ways using the same resources in entirely different ways.For example, the central pillar of most schooling, grading, is harmful to children and communities in all sorts of ways:
 "From Degrading to De-Grading"
  http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/fdtd-g.htm [alfiekohn.org] """1.
Grades tend to reduce students' interest in the learning itself.
...2.  Grades tend to reduce students' preference for challenging tasks.
...3.  Grades tend to reduce the quality of students' thinking.
...4. Grades aren't valid, reliable, or objective.
...5. Grades distort the curriculum.
...6. Grades waste a lot of time that could be spent on learning.
...7. Grades encourage cheating.
...8. Grades spoil teachers' relationships</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382928</id>
	<title>Parents, Surroundings, Teachers, Nature</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267866480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Having taught middle school, run higher education outreach programs, and currently working in higher education, I say...</p><p>Bill Gates still has no clue about education.</p><p>His first attempt at "fixing" education comprised of giving tons of money to brilliant high school students so they wouldn't have to pay for college. Useless why? Because brilliant kids already get tons of money to go to college.</p><p>His second attempt was to inject massive amounts of money into certain schools, or sponsor entire schools, to bring them "up to date" with technology. Useless why? Because he was still targeting the wrong students with computers-- things that more frequently harm a student's mind and concentration in education than helps.</p><p>Now, he's going to spend a ton of money trying to find out what makes a great teacher and then try to create a method to make great teachers. Useless why? Because great teachers are few and far between. Teaching K-12 is not monetarily rewarding so the best teachers are actually there just to teach and to survive. They don't jump out and give talks or invite multi-billionaires to their classrooms (disrupting their teaching). They have a passion for the education of our youth, have a personality that resonates with the students, and they're personally brilliant themselves. You can't simply duplicate that with training! Instead, you have to make it easy for people who already have these qualities to become teachers.</p><p>I've said it once and I'll say it a billion times over and over again: When America brags about having the brightest students and the best schools in the world, they're actually talking about their *best* students and they're best schools (typically universities). When America talks about how education is "broken", they're talking about the students coming from poor socio-economic background and schools that have severely lacking facilities. It's these students, the teachers and administrators in these schools, and these buildings that need the most attention.</p><p>These students are surrounded by hopelessness (at home, around their homes, and at school), they're feared, and they're looked down upon. The society around them gives up on them at first sight. They know only poverty, struggle, and dishonesty as norms. So they give up early in life.</p><p>Because the students are of such poor quality, the various responsible governments do not see them worthy of investment. The buildings leak when it rains. The classrooms are small. What computer labs that exist for typing out papers are defunct because of the lack of proper care (because proper care is expensive!).</p><p>Now, consider being a hopeful and brilliant teacher trying to get a job with no experience. This is often the only school within your first year of applications that will give you a shot. You go in and you deal with the complete lack of student support and students that KNOW you won't be around long... so they torture you. We call that "Teach for America". You go in, you do your time, you get your better job offer in two years, and you get the fuck out of Dodge. That's the norm.</p><p>And what of the teachers that don't do a TFA program? There's two methods of becoming a teacher:</p><p>Method A: Quick, no training, cheap (here's where the bad teachers come from)<br>1) Be competent at baby sitting<br>2) Apply for "emergency credentials"<br>3) Do your time<br>4) Apply for a credential program, skip a bunch of training, do some night school, and you're a full teacher.</p><p>Method B: The right way -- Education, training<br>1) Apply to a 4-year university ($), get accepted<br>2) Complete your 4-year education ($$$$$)<br>3) Apply for a 2+ year Masters-Credential combination program, get accepted ($$)<br>4) Complete your program, receive your credentials ($$$$), and hope that by the time you complete your program some $$ debt is knocked off by *re-instated* teachers' debt forgiveness<br>5) Search for teaching positions (~6 months to 1 year), dodging non-full time positions because you want medical benefits<br>6) Fi</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Having taught middle school , run higher education outreach programs , and currently working in higher education , I say...Bill Gates still has no clue about education.His first attempt at " fixing " education comprised of giving tons of money to brilliant high school students so they would n't have to pay for college .
Useless why ?
Because brilliant kids already get tons of money to go to college.His second attempt was to inject massive amounts of money into certain schools , or sponsor entire schools , to bring them " up to date " with technology .
Useless why ?
Because he was still targeting the wrong students with computers-- things that more frequently harm a student 's mind and concentration in education than helps.Now , he 's going to spend a ton of money trying to find out what makes a great teacher and then try to create a method to make great teachers .
Useless why ?
Because great teachers are few and far between .
Teaching K-12 is not monetarily rewarding so the best teachers are actually there just to teach and to survive .
They do n't jump out and give talks or invite multi-billionaires to their classrooms ( disrupting their teaching ) .
They have a passion for the education of our youth , have a personality that resonates with the students , and they 're personally brilliant themselves .
You ca n't simply duplicate that with training !
Instead , you have to make it easy for people who already have these qualities to become teachers.I 've said it once and I 'll say it a billion times over and over again : When America brags about having the brightest students and the best schools in the world , they 're actually talking about their * best * students and they 're best schools ( typically universities ) .
When America talks about how education is " broken " , they 're talking about the students coming from poor socio-economic background and schools that have severely lacking facilities .
It 's these students , the teachers and administrators in these schools , and these buildings that need the most attention.These students are surrounded by hopelessness ( at home , around their homes , and at school ) , they 're feared , and they 're looked down upon .
The society around them gives up on them at first sight .
They know only poverty , struggle , and dishonesty as norms .
So they give up early in life.Because the students are of such poor quality , the various responsible governments do not see them worthy of investment .
The buildings leak when it rains .
The classrooms are small .
What computer labs that exist for typing out papers are defunct because of the lack of proper care ( because proper care is expensive !
) .Now , consider being a hopeful and brilliant teacher trying to get a job with no experience .
This is often the only school within your first year of applications that will give you a shot .
You go in and you deal with the complete lack of student support and students that KNOW you wo n't be around long... so they torture you .
We call that " Teach for America " .
You go in , you do your time , you get your better job offer in two years , and you get the fuck out of Dodge .
That 's the norm.And what of the teachers that do n't do a TFA program ?
There 's two methods of becoming a teacher : Method A : Quick , no training , cheap ( here 's where the bad teachers come from ) 1 ) Be competent at baby sitting2 ) Apply for " emergency credentials " 3 ) Do your time4 ) Apply for a credential program , skip a bunch of training , do some night school , and you 're a full teacher.Method B : The right way -- Education , training1 ) Apply to a 4-year university ( $ ) , get accepted2 ) Complete your 4-year education ( $ $ $ $ $ ) 3 ) Apply for a 2 + year Masters-Credential combination program , get accepted ( $ $ ) 4 ) Complete your program , receive your credentials ( $ $ $ $ ) , and hope that by the time you complete your program some $ $ debt is knocked off by * re-instated * teachers ' debt forgiveness5 ) Search for teaching positions ( ~ 6 months to 1 year ) , dodging non-full time positions because you want medical benefits6 ) Fi</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Having taught middle school, run higher education outreach programs, and currently working in higher education, I say...Bill Gates still has no clue about education.His first attempt at "fixing" education comprised of giving tons of money to brilliant high school students so they wouldn't have to pay for college.
Useless why?
Because brilliant kids already get tons of money to go to college.His second attempt was to inject massive amounts of money into certain schools, or sponsor entire schools, to bring them "up to date" with technology.
Useless why?
Because he was still targeting the wrong students with computers-- things that more frequently harm a student's mind and concentration in education than helps.Now, he's going to spend a ton of money trying to find out what makes a great teacher and then try to create a method to make great teachers.
Useless why?
Because great teachers are few and far between.
Teaching K-12 is not monetarily rewarding so the best teachers are actually there just to teach and to survive.
They don't jump out and give talks or invite multi-billionaires to their classrooms (disrupting their teaching).
They have a passion for the education of our youth, have a personality that resonates with the students, and they're personally brilliant themselves.
You can't simply duplicate that with training!
Instead, you have to make it easy for people who already have these qualities to become teachers.I've said it once and I'll say it a billion times over and over again: When America brags about having the brightest students and the best schools in the world, they're actually talking about their *best* students and they're best schools (typically universities).
When America talks about how education is "broken", they're talking about the students coming from poor socio-economic background and schools that have severely lacking facilities.
It's these students, the teachers and administrators in these schools, and these buildings that need the most attention.These students are surrounded by hopelessness (at home, around their homes, and at school), they're feared, and they're looked down upon.
The society around them gives up on them at first sight.
They know only poverty, struggle, and dishonesty as norms.
So they give up early in life.Because the students are of such poor quality, the various responsible governments do not see them worthy of investment.
The buildings leak when it rains.
The classrooms are small.
What computer labs that exist for typing out papers are defunct because of the lack of proper care (because proper care is expensive!
).Now, consider being a hopeful and brilliant teacher trying to get a job with no experience.
This is often the only school within your first year of applications that will give you a shot.
You go in and you deal with the complete lack of student support and students that KNOW you won't be around long... so they torture you.
We call that "Teach for America".
You go in, you do your time, you get your better job offer in two years, and you get the fuck out of Dodge.
That's the norm.And what of the teachers that don't do a TFA program?
There's two methods of becoming a teacher:Method A: Quick, no training, cheap (here's where the bad teachers come from)1) Be competent at baby sitting2) Apply for "emergency credentials"3) Do your time4) Apply for a credential program, skip a bunch of training, do some night school, and you're a full teacher.Method B: The right way -- Education, training1) Apply to a 4-year university ($), get accepted2) Complete your 4-year education ($$$$$)3) Apply for a 2+ year Masters-Credential combination program, get accepted ($$)4) Complete your program, receive your credentials ($$$$), and hope that by the time you complete your program some $$ debt is knocked off by *re-instated* teachers' debt forgiveness5) Search for teaching positions (~6 months to 1 year), dodging non-full time positions because you want medical benefits6) Fi</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31390004</id>
	<title>Re:overwhelming social and economic forces</title>
	<author>TheRaven64</author>
	<datestamp>1267978440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Even then, you don't get a level playing field.  In the UK, schools are centrally funded, but a school in an upper middle class area ends up with a lot of parents who take an active interest and help run after-school activities and if it runs any fund-raising activities to try to get extra equipment that it can't afford from the normal budget then it will end up with a lot of extra money to spend.  Put it in a less privileged area, and when you've got both parents of every child working long hours to afford their cost of living you get little parental involvement and no extra income beyond the state funding.  My godfather was a school governor at a (very) middle class school.  The state funding covered the cost of the buildings and the salaries, but everything else (equipment, computers, a lot of books) were paid for by money donated by parents - sometimes the equipment was donated directly.  The schools where my mother worked had to cover all of these costs from the state funding.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Even then , you do n't get a level playing field .
In the UK , schools are centrally funded , but a school in an upper middle class area ends up with a lot of parents who take an active interest and help run after-school activities and if it runs any fund-raising activities to try to get extra equipment that it ca n't afford from the normal budget then it will end up with a lot of extra money to spend .
Put it in a less privileged area , and when you 've got both parents of every child working long hours to afford their cost of living you get little parental involvement and no extra income beyond the state funding .
My godfather was a school governor at a ( very ) middle class school .
The state funding covered the cost of the buildings and the salaries , but everything else ( equipment , computers , a lot of books ) were paid for by money donated by parents - sometimes the equipment was donated directly .
The schools where my mother worked had to cover all of these costs from the state funding .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Even then, you don't get a level playing field.
In the UK, schools are centrally funded, but a school in an upper middle class area ends up with a lot of parents who take an active interest and help run after-school activities and if it runs any fund-raising activities to try to get extra equipment that it can't afford from the normal budget then it will end up with a lot of extra money to spend.
Put it in a less privileged area, and when you've got both parents of every child working long hours to afford their cost of living you get little parental involvement and no extra income beyond the state funding.
My godfather was a school governor at a (very) middle class school.
The state funding covered the cost of the buildings and the salaries, but everything else (equipment, computers, a lot of books) were paid for by money donated by parents - sometimes the equipment was donated directly.
The schools where my mother worked had to cover all of these costs from the state funding.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31384824</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382720</id>
	<title>Re:just pay them more</title>
	<author>zippthorne</author>
	<datestamp>1267908300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Maybe people feel teaching is a more rewarding job than janit-ing, so they're willing to take less pay for it?  Maybe it's harder to find a skilled janitor than a skilled teacher?  Maybe its easier to evaluate the skill or quality of a janitor, so it seems harder to find a decent one than it is to find a body sit in a box of kids?</p><p>Another interesting point is that the man, who worked as a janitor in a public school, sent his own kid to a private school (as many public school teachers also do.  Something about "not eating dog food" I'm lead to understand.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe people feel teaching is a more rewarding job than janit-ing , so they 're willing to take less pay for it ?
Maybe it 's harder to find a skilled janitor than a skilled teacher ?
Maybe its easier to evaluate the skill or quality of a janitor , so it seems harder to find a decent one than it is to find a body sit in a box of kids ? Another interesting point is that the man , who worked as a janitor in a public school , sent his own kid to a private school ( as many public school teachers also do .
Something about " not eating dog food " I 'm lead to understand .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe people feel teaching is a more rewarding job than janit-ing, so they're willing to take less pay for it?
Maybe it's harder to find a skilled janitor than a skilled teacher?
Maybe its easier to evaluate the skill or quality of a janitor, so it seems harder to find a decent one than it is to find a body sit in a box of kids?Another interesting point is that the man, who worked as a janitor in a public school, sent his own kid to a private school (as many public school teachers also do.
Something about "not eating dog food" I'm lead to understand.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382104</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31390240</id>
	<title>Re:Teachers want this more than Administrators</title>
	<author>eyore15</author>
	<datestamp>1267979760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'd gladly support the union in my school if I didn't have to also support the NEA. There's a provision in law (I can't find the reference right now) that provides for the union to disclose the portion of the dues used for negotiating contracts, and then teachers can opt to support that function.  As long as I have to support lobbying and PACs, I'm not going to participate.  The NEA lost me years ago when they wanted to keep orange juice out of schools because they didn't like the political position of the spokesperson (Anita Bryant).  I happened to agree that the position was wrong, but taking orange juice out of schools to prove your point?  Sorry.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd gladly support the union in my school if I did n't have to also support the NEA .
There 's a provision in law ( I ca n't find the reference right now ) that provides for the union to disclose the portion of the dues used for negotiating contracts , and then teachers can opt to support that function .
As long as I have to support lobbying and PACs , I 'm not going to participate .
The NEA lost me years ago when they wanted to keep orange juice out of schools because they did n't like the political position of the spokesperson ( Anita Bryant ) .
I happened to agree that the position was wrong , but taking orange juice out of schools to prove your point ?
Sorry .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd gladly support the union in my school if I didn't have to also support the NEA.
There's a provision in law (I can't find the reference right now) that provides for the union to disclose the portion of the dues used for negotiating contracts, and then teachers can opt to support that function.
As long as I have to support lobbying and PACs, I'm not going to participate.
The NEA lost me years ago when they wanted to keep orange juice out of schools because they didn't like the political position of the spokesperson (Anita Bryant).
I happened to agree that the position was wrong, but taking orange juice out of schools to prove your point?
Sorry.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382908</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382162</id>
	<title>When the rot is entrenched at the highest levels</title>
	<author>wheelema</author>
	<datestamp>1267905000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>of State Government there is no chance for improvement in the trenches.  The whole system, from soup to nuts, needs to be dredged out and rebuilt and there is zero chance that will ever happen, specially in California with it's all-powerful teacher's union.</p><p>Schwarzenegger wasn't the first to try, and he won't be the last to fail.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>of State Government there is no chance for improvement in the trenches .
The whole system , from soup to nuts , needs to be dredged out and rebuilt and there is zero chance that will ever happen , specially in California with it 's all-powerful teacher 's union.Schwarzenegger was n't the first to try , and he wo n't be the last to fail .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>of State Government there is no chance for improvement in the trenches.
The whole system, from soup to nuts, needs to be dredged out and rebuilt and there is zero chance that will ever happen, specially in California with it's all-powerful teacher's union.Schwarzenegger wasn't the first to try, and he won't be the last to fail.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382678</id>
	<title>Re:Good Teachers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267908000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sorry, but I think this is just feel-good nonsense, lets <b>hire some experienced teachers!</b> - well, and they just grow on trees? Obviously not, so should school districts cannibalize each other competing for the few good teachers? The result will be that the richer counties will gobbling up all the good teachers, widening the gap.</p><p>

And you need some bureaucracy - specialization is not just for insects! Someone just has to do the paperwork, see which methods work or not, pay better performing teachers more and eventually make the hard decisions about firing that charismatic yet incompetent teacher. This is <b>needed</b> so that teachers can concentrate on the kids instead of playing nasty political games on the school level.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sorry , but I think this is just feel-good nonsense , lets hire some experienced teachers !
- well , and they just grow on trees ?
Obviously not , so should school districts cannibalize each other competing for the few good teachers ?
The result will be that the richer counties will gobbling up all the good teachers , widening the gap .
And you need some bureaucracy - specialization is not just for insects !
Someone just has to do the paperwork , see which methods work or not , pay better performing teachers more and eventually make the hard decisions about firing that charismatic yet incompetent teacher .
This is needed so that teachers can concentrate on the kids instead of playing nasty political games on the school level .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sorry, but I think this is just feel-good nonsense, lets hire some experienced teachers!
- well, and they just grow on trees?
Obviously not, so should school districts cannibalize each other competing for the few good teachers?
The result will be that the richer counties will gobbling up all the good teachers, widening the gap.
And you need some bureaucracy - specialization is not just for insects!
Someone just has to do the paperwork, see which methods work or not, pay better performing teachers more and eventually make the hard decisions about firing that charismatic yet incompetent teacher.
This is needed so that teachers can concentrate on the kids instead of playing nasty political games on the school level.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382178</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31384750</id>
	<title>This is asinine.</title>
	<author>cts5678</author>
	<datestamp>1267880400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Why is it when Johnny can't read we never hold to the fire the feet of the people who have these poor performers in their custody, what,  128 out of 168 hours per week (that's 76\% for those of you who can read but not do math)?  Or, roughly, 7130/8736 =82\% of the hours per year?  Who are these people who never get the blame in spite of the fact that they have far greater influence than a (generally) poorly paid babysitter?  The parents.  When is something going to be done to hold the parents accountable for children who come to school unprepared, emotionally and physically bankrupt and who do nothing but cause trouble when they are there?  I'm not a teacher but I surely are am not the only one to notice that when kids underperform, it's never entirely the teachers' fault.  Not that I mean to say there aren't some bad teachers out there who need to be fired.  But not before a clear pattern is proven that a given teacher has failed to teach rather than the kid fails to learn.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why is it when Johnny ca n't read we never hold to the fire the feet of the people who have these poor performers in their custody , what , 128 out of 168 hours per week ( that 's 76 \ % for those of you who can read but not do math ) ?
Or , roughly , 7130/8736 = 82 \ % of the hours per year ?
Who are these people who never get the blame in spite of the fact that they have far greater influence than a ( generally ) poorly paid babysitter ?
The parents .
When is something going to be done to hold the parents accountable for children who come to school unprepared , emotionally and physically bankrupt and who do nothing but cause trouble when they are there ?
I 'm not a teacher but I surely are am not the only one to notice that when kids underperform , it 's never entirely the teachers ' fault .
Not that I mean to say there are n't some bad teachers out there who need to be fired .
But not before a clear pattern is proven that a given teacher has failed to teach rather than the kid fails to learn .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why is it when Johnny can't read we never hold to the fire the feet of the people who have these poor performers in their custody, what,  128 out of 168 hours per week (that's 76\% for those of you who can read but not do math)?
Or, roughly, 7130/8736 =82\% of the hours per year?
Who are these people who never get the blame in spite of the fact that they have far greater influence than a (generally) poorly paid babysitter?
The parents.
When is something going to be done to hold the parents accountable for children who come to school unprepared, emotionally and physically bankrupt and who do nothing but cause trouble when they are there?
I'm not a teacher but I surely are am not the only one to notice that when kids underperform, it's never entirely the teachers' fault.
Not that I mean to say there aren't some bad teachers out there who need to be fired.
But not before a clear pattern is proven that a given teacher has failed to teach rather than the kid fails to learn.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31387592</id>
	<title>education</title>
	<author>max847</author>
	<datestamp>1267953960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>why not  do something really usefull and have the government or microsoft sponcer a VIRTUAL ONLINE LEARNING ENVIRONMENT!
huge gain for the doller,,  want to learn french? teleport to a virtual france (or have a traditional virtual university setting)  go learn about mars by virtually walking  on its surface for literaly pennies  the tech has been available since year 2000 for a realistic enough world,  and people can log into it from almost anywhere and they can learn about nearly anything   biology? shrink to the size of a microb,,  chemestry  do virtual experiments  there is nearly no limit.  I proposed this on the obama website and  the DOE site but fell on deaf ears
guess it doesnt spend enough taxpayer money.</htmltext>
<tokenext>why not do something really usefull and have the government or microsoft sponcer a VIRTUAL ONLINE LEARNING ENVIRONMENT !
huge gain for the doller, , want to learn french ?
teleport to a virtual france ( or have a traditional virtual university setting ) go learn about mars by virtually walking on its surface for literaly pennies the tech has been available since year 2000 for a realistic enough world , and people can log into it from almost anywhere and they can learn about nearly anything biology ?
shrink to the size of a microb, , chemestry do virtual experiments there is nearly no limit .
I proposed this on the obama website and the DOE site but fell on deaf ears guess it doesnt spend enough taxpayer money .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>why not  do something really usefull and have the government or microsoft sponcer a VIRTUAL ONLINE LEARNING ENVIRONMENT!
huge gain for the doller,,  want to learn french?
teleport to a virtual france (or have a traditional virtual university setting)  go learn about mars by virtually walking  on its surface for literaly pennies  the tech has been available since year 2000 for a realistic enough world,  and people can log into it from almost anywhere and they can learn about nearly anything   biology?
shrink to the size of a microb,,  chemestry  do virtual experiments  there is nearly no limit.
I proposed this on the obama website and  the DOE site but fell on deaf ears
guess it doesnt spend enough taxpayer money.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31384808</id>
	<title>Re:Education works as designed . . . TO FAIL.</title>
	<author>cts5678</author>
	<datestamp>1267881000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Wrong.  Education (public or private) in this country works exactly as well as the provider and recipient makes it work.  You come to class and pay attention, don't screw around, do the work, put in a little extra effort and you're going to go somewhere.  Most importantly parents have to be involved and stay involved with the education process.  Most parents in this country put practically no effort or time into making sure their kids are learning, and it shows.  If there's an issue at school, most parents assume it's the other guy's fault and stick up for their kid who doesn't pay attention in class, doesn't do the homework, doesn't behave, doesn't learn anything - to them, it's ALL the teachers' or schools' fault.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Wrong .
Education ( public or private ) in this country works exactly as well as the provider and recipient makes it work .
You come to class and pay attention , do n't screw around , do the work , put in a little extra effort and you 're going to go somewhere .
Most importantly parents have to be involved and stay involved with the education process .
Most parents in this country put practically no effort or time into making sure their kids are learning , and it shows .
If there 's an issue at school , most parents assume it 's the other guy 's fault and stick up for their kid who does n't pay attention in class , does n't do the homework , does n't behave , does n't learn anything - to them , it 's ALL the teachers ' or schools ' fault .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wrong.
Education (public or private) in this country works exactly as well as the provider and recipient makes it work.
You come to class and pay attention, don't screw around, do the work, put in a little extra effort and you're going to go somewhere.
Most importantly parents have to be involved and stay involved with the education process.
Most parents in this country put practically no effort or time into making sure their kids are learning, and it shows.
If there's an issue at school, most parents assume it's the other guy's fault and stick up for their kid who doesn't pay attention in class, doesn't do the homework, doesn't behave, doesn't learn anything - to them, it's ALL the teachers' or schools' fault.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31383098</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382990</id>
	<title>Re:You can't teach students that don't want to lea</title>
	<author>damburger</author>
	<datestamp>1267866840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This the same 'genius' thow droned his way through a cringeworthy hatchet-job against Richard Dawkins? The same one who told people that were predicting the current financial crisis to STFU and go learn something?</htmltext>
<tokenext>This the same 'genius ' thow droned his way through a cringeworthy hatchet-job against Richard Dawkins ?
The same one who told people that were predicting the current financial crisis to STFU and go learn something ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This the same 'genius' thow droned his way through a cringeworthy hatchet-job against Richard Dawkins?
The same one who told people that were predicting the current financial crisis to STFU and go learn something?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382110</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31383210</id>
	<title>Sounds like the U-of-X system</title>
	<author>cellurl</author>
	<datestamp>1267868220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The only people who benefit from this study would be the University of XXX, department of education.<br>
West TN public schools (memphis) suck big, you should blame the Univ of Memphis, college of education.<br>
Half of their profit comes from "certifying" teachers.<br>
Why in the world do we need Ph.D's as principals like Memphis has...<br> <br>

Study a school, any school which has a waiting list.<br>
I could suggest a few...<br> <br>

<a href="http://www.wikispeedia.org/" title="wikispeedia.org" rel="nofollow">Get off your fat ass and do somethiing.</a> [wikispeedia.org]</htmltext>
<tokenext>The only people who benefit from this study would be the University of XXX , department of education .
West TN public schools ( memphis ) suck big , you should blame the Univ of Memphis , college of education .
Half of their profit comes from " certifying " teachers .
Why in the world do we need Ph.D 's as principals like Memphis has.. . Study a school , any school which has a waiting list .
I could suggest a few.. . Get off your fat ass and do somethiing .
[ wikispeedia.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The only people who benefit from this study would be the University of XXX, department of education.
West TN public schools (memphis) suck big, you should blame the Univ of Memphis, college of education.
Half of their profit comes from "certifying" teachers.
Why in the world do we need Ph.D's as principals like Memphis has... 

Study a school, any school which has a waiting list.
I could suggest a few... 

Get off your fat ass and do somethiing.
[wikispeedia.org]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31385234</id>
	<title>This is a downside to American mythology</title>
	<author>Nimey</author>
	<datestamp>1267884540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That being individualism and the idea that J. Random knows (or can easily teach themselves) just as well how to do a thing as a trained, experienced professional.</p><p>You see that in education with parents who are dead certain they can tell teachers how to do their jobs.  Also with jackasses in Texas who want to dictate what's in schoolbooks based on their political agendas, despite having no degree in education or in the subjects they're trying to modify in the curricula.</p><p>You see that in the debates about evolution and anthropogenic global warming.</p><p>You see it in politics every goddamn day.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That being individualism and the idea that J. Random knows ( or can easily teach themselves ) just as well how to do a thing as a trained , experienced professional.You see that in education with parents who are dead certain they can tell teachers how to do their jobs .
Also with jackasses in Texas who want to dictate what 's in schoolbooks based on their political agendas , despite having no degree in education or in the subjects they 're trying to modify in the curricula.You see that in the debates about evolution and anthropogenic global warming.You see it in politics every goddamn day .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That being individualism and the idea that J. Random knows (or can easily teach themselves) just as well how to do a thing as a trained, experienced professional.You see that in education with parents who are dead certain they can tell teachers how to do their jobs.
Also with jackasses in Texas who want to dictate what's in schoolbooks based on their political agendas, despite having no degree in education or in the subjects they're trying to modify in the curricula.You see that in the debates about evolution and anthropogenic global warming.You see it in politics every goddamn day.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31383290</id>
	<title>Don't forget the admins and BoE's</title>
	<author>Huntr</author>
	<datestamp>1267868760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Full disclosure: I'm the son of a long-time high school English teacher who recognizes there are a lot of shitty teachers out there.</p><p>More of the blame needs to be placed at the feet of administrators and Boards of Education, IMO.  They often kowtow to parents because parents hold the purse strings.  Nobody has the good teachers' backs in disputes with parents and students.  If a parent complains enough or is a big donor, their kid will pass on the district superintendent's or BoE's orders.</p><p>There are plenty of bad teachers that deserve blame, but we can't forget the failings of those with real power in the system.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Full disclosure : I 'm the son of a long-time high school English teacher who recognizes there are a lot of shitty teachers out there.More of the blame needs to be placed at the feet of administrators and Boards of Education , IMO .
They often kowtow to parents because parents hold the purse strings .
Nobody has the good teachers ' backs in disputes with parents and students .
If a parent complains enough or is a big donor , their kid will pass on the district superintendent 's or BoE 's orders.There are plenty of bad teachers that deserve blame , but we ca n't forget the failings of those with real power in the system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Full disclosure: I'm the son of a long-time high school English teacher who recognizes there are a lot of shitty teachers out there.More of the blame needs to be placed at the feet of administrators and Boards of Education, IMO.
They often kowtow to parents because parents hold the purse strings.
Nobody has the good teachers' backs in disputes with parents and students.
If a parent complains enough or is a big donor, their kid will pass on the district superintendent's or BoE's orders.There are plenty of bad teachers that deserve blame, but we can't forget the failings of those with real power in the system.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31384534</id>
	<title>Re:hire pedophiles and pederasts</title>
	<author>BitterOak</author>
	<datestamp>1267878720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I know everyone will think the parent is crazy, but it isn't as crazy an idea as it sounds.  In ancient Greece, it was normal for men to take on a boy or young man as a student, and sex would be part of the relationship.  It wasn't an abusive sort of relationship, but one of mutual consent and trust.  They were one of the most educated and enlightened cultures of ancient times, and I think we could learn a thing or two from them.  Read more about it <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian\_pederasty" title="wikipedia.org">here</a> [wikipedia.org].</htmltext>
<tokenext>I know everyone will think the parent is crazy , but it is n't as crazy an idea as it sounds .
In ancient Greece , it was normal for men to take on a boy or young man as a student , and sex would be part of the relationship .
It was n't an abusive sort of relationship , but one of mutual consent and trust .
They were one of the most educated and enlightened cultures of ancient times , and I think we could learn a thing or two from them .
Read more about it here [ wikipedia.org ] .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I know everyone will think the parent is crazy, but it isn't as crazy an idea as it sounds.
In ancient Greece, it was normal for men to take on a boy or young man as a student, and sex would be part of the relationship.
It wasn't an abusive sort of relationship, but one of mutual consent and trust.
They were one of the most educated and enlightened cultures of ancient times, and I think we could learn a thing or two from them.
Read more about it here [wikipedia.org].</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382344</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31393700</id>
	<title>Re:The OTHER Elephant</title>
	<author>Jaime2</author>
	<datestamp>1267956780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I agree with the self-assessment problems.<br>
<br>
I was once a part of a software project to build a software-as-a-service course evaluation product.  I have a lot of experience in for-profit training.  In my industry, we lived and died by reputation and we strived to have the best educators in every classroom.  My role in the project was both as a software architect and domain knowledge specialist.<br>
<br>
I eventually left the project because any technology we introduced that seemed to accurately assess an educator was seen as a defect and made the sale really difficult.  We were forced to blown sunshine up everyone's butt and create a product that would spit out reports that showed that everything was great.<br>
<br>
Also, back in my training days, we had regular workshops that turned out to be an interesting petri dishes for educator assessments.  For a short period, our yearly performance reviews were tied directly to the numeric evaluation submitted by students.  We would go through recent evaluations, find weak points, and brainstorm how to get the evalution numbers up.  It turned out that the easiest way to improve numbers was to present the evaluation differently.  If you ask for an honest opinion, or make feedback optional, then the students who didn't really care much would skip the eval while the ones who had a specific gripe would be sure to fill out the form completely.  If you present the evaluation as mandatory and ask for "detailed written feedback about how an educator could improve himself" for any non-perfect score, then it seemed like you really cared about hearing everyone's problems and addressing all of them.  In reality, it discouraged some fence-sitting students from giving bad reviews and got the students who just wanted to leave to give you perfect scores.  We improved every educator's evaluation scores to the highest bracket we had without changing <i>any</i> in-classroom behaviors.<br>
<br>
Moral of the story -- If you make evaluations count for anything tangible, they will be gamed and abused and therefore will be less useful.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree with the self-assessment problems .
I was once a part of a software project to build a software-as-a-service course evaluation product .
I have a lot of experience in for-profit training .
In my industry , we lived and died by reputation and we strived to have the best educators in every classroom .
My role in the project was both as a software architect and domain knowledge specialist .
I eventually left the project because any technology we introduced that seemed to accurately assess an educator was seen as a defect and made the sale really difficult .
We were forced to blown sunshine up everyone 's butt and create a product that would spit out reports that showed that everything was great .
Also , back in my training days , we had regular workshops that turned out to be an interesting petri dishes for educator assessments .
For a short period , our yearly performance reviews were tied directly to the numeric evaluation submitted by students .
We would go through recent evaluations , find weak points , and brainstorm how to get the evalution numbers up .
It turned out that the easiest way to improve numbers was to present the evaluation differently .
If you ask for an honest opinion , or make feedback optional , then the students who did n't really care much would skip the eval while the ones who had a specific gripe would be sure to fill out the form completely .
If you present the evaluation as mandatory and ask for " detailed written feedback about how an educator could improve himself " for any non-perfect score , then it seemed like you really cared about hearing everyone 's problems and addressing all of them .
In reality , it discouraged some fence-sitting students from giving bad reviews and got the students who just wanted to leave to give you perfect scores .
We improved every educator 's evaluation scores to the highest bracket we had without changing any in-classroom behaviors .
Moral of the story -- If you make evaluations count for anything tangible , they will be gamed and abused and therefore will be less useful .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree with the self-assessment problems.
I was once a part of a software project to build a software-as-a-service course evaluation product.
I have a lot of experience in for-profit training.
In my industry, we lived and died by reputation and we strived to have the best educators in every classroom.
My role in the project was both as a software architect and domain knowledge specialist.
I eventually left the project because any technology we introduced that seemed to accurately assess an educator was seen as a defect and made the sale really difficult.
We were forced to blown sunshine up everyone's butt and create a product that would spit out reports that showed that everything was great.
Also, back in my training days, we had regular workshops that turned out to be an interesting petri dishes for educator assessments.
For a short period, our yearly performance reviews were tied directly to the numeric evaluation submitted by students.
We would go through recent evaluations, find weak points, and brainstorm how to get the evalution numbers up.
It turned out that the easiest way to improve numbers was to present the evaluation differently.
If you ask for an honest opinion, or make feedback optional, then the students who didn't really care much would skip the eval while the ones who had a specific gripe would be sure to fill out the form completely.
If you present the evaluation as mandatory and ask for "detailed written feedback about how an educator could improve himself" for any non-perfect score, then it seemed like you really cared about hearing everyone's problems and addressing all of them.
In reality, it discouraged some fence-sitting students from giving bad reviews and got the students who just wanted to leave to give you perfect scores.
We improved every educator's evaluation scores to the highest bracket we had without changing any in-classroom behaviors.
Moral of the story -- If you make evaluations count for anything tangible, they will be gamed and abused and therefore will be less useful.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31383834</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31383098</id>
	<title>Education works as designed . . . TO FAIL.</title>
	<author>Alan R Light</author>
	<datestamp>1267867440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I suggest the works of John Taylor Gatto.
</p><p>
<a href="http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/" title="johntaylorgatto.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/</a> [johntaylorgatto.com]
</p><p>A former teacher who won awards as Teacher-of-the-Year for both New York City and New York State, Gatto has looked into the history of education in the United States and came to the conclusion that the Education system is working exactly as it was designed.

</p><p>However, the U.S. education system was designed to prepare students to be cogs in the industrial machine, and that requires workers who have some basic skills but no independence or spirit of inquiry.  In short, it requires workers who are half-educated - no more, no less - and so countless reforms never work because the system is already working exactly as intended.

</p><p>These little piddling changes will make no difference.  Allow the money to follow the students, <i>that</i> might make a difference.  The government monopoly on schools will just continue on its old course.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I suggest the works of John Taylor Gatto .
http : //www.johntaylorgatto.com/ [ johntaylorgatto.com ] A former teacher who won awards as Teacher-of-the-Year for both New York City and New York State , Gatto has looked into the history of education in the United States and came to the conclusion that the Education system is working exactly as it was designed .
However , the U.S. education system was designed to prepare students to be cogs in the industrial machine , and that requires workers who have some basic skills but no independence or spirit of inquiry .
In short , it requires workers who are half-educated - no more , no less - and so countless reforms never work because the system is already working exactly as intended .
These little piddling changes will make no difference .
Allow the money to follow the students , that might make a difference .
The government monopoly on schools will just continue on its old course .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I suggest the works of John Taylor Gatto.
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/ [johntaylorgatto.com]
A former teacher who won awards as Teacher-of-the-Year for both New York City and New York State, Gatto has looked into the history of education in the United States and came to the conclusion that the Education system is working exactly as it was designed.
However, the U.S. education system was designed to prepare students to be cogs in the industrial machine, and that requires workers who have some basic skills but no independence or spirit of inquiry.
In short, it requires workers who are half-educated - no more, no less - and so countless reforms never work because the system is already working exactly as intended.
These little piddling changes will make no difference.
Allow the money to follow the students, that might make a difference.
The government monopoly on schools will just continue on its old course.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382126</id>
	<title>Hmmmm.....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267904760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>How about drug testing them before we go any further.     Confucius say: Man standing on toilet - high on pot!</htmltext>
<tokenext>How about drug testing them before we go any further .
Confucius say : Man standing on toilet - high on pot !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about drug testing them before we go any further.
Confucius say: Man standing on toilet - high on pot!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31402712</id>
	<title>I will semi retire at age 45...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1268074260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At that point I can take a low paying, rewarding job.</p><p>But I am a man, and there's no way I'm ever going near your kids.  No man will, 95\% who would be interested in teaching are too scared.  My parents good friend took early retirement due to this very issue.  There was a claim of abuse, 25 witnesses exonerated the fellow, but he threw up his hands and said "screw it."</p><p>There you go, you just eliminated up to 49\% of your pool of potential "good teachers."</p><p>I realize few soccer moms read slashdot, but oh well.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At that point I can take a low paying , rewarding job.But I am a man , and there 's no way I 'm ever going near your kids .
No man will , 95 \ % who would be interested in teaching are too scared .
My parents good friend took early retirement due to this very issue .
There was a claim of abuse , 25 witnesses exonerated the fellow , but he threw up his hands and said " screw it .
" There you go , you just eliminated up to 49 \ % of your pool of potential " good teachers .
" I realize few soccer moms read slashdot , but oh well .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At that point I can take a low paying, rewarding job.But I am a man, and there's no way I'm ever going near your kids.
No man will, 95\% who would be interested in teaching are too scared.
My parents good friend took early retirement due to this very issue.
There was a claim of abuse, 25 witnesses exonerated the fellow, but he threw up his hands and said "screw it.
"There you go, you just eliminated up to 49\% of your pool of potential "good teachers.
"I realize few soccer moms read slashdot, but oh well.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31383944</id>
	<title>One problem</title>
	<author>OrwellianLurker</author>
	<datestamp>1267873620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>One problem with America's education system is that teachers are forced to teach to the lowest people in the class. What we should be doing is segregating students who genuinely need more assistance (I could have used extra math help during HS). During nearly all of my classes, I would screw off or work on unrelated projects. Why? Because I finished the work of a week in a day. While my English class spent nearly two weeks reading Romeo and Juliet, I finished it in three days. My teacher just let me sit there and listen to music. Sure, at times I was productive with my free time. But the fact is, the smartest kids aren't being challenged, which causes disruptions and unnecessarily halts their educational growth. Also, the average kid is being challenged. <p>
This will probably never happen because parents would be outraged if their children weren't "the brightest." Admittedly, this is just one problem. But that's how you solve larger problems-- you tackle the smaller problems and eventually you can begin making serious progress.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>One problem with America 's education system is that teachers are forced to teach to the lowest people in the class .
What we should be doing is segregating students who genuinely need more assistance ( I could have used extra math help during HS ) .
During nearly all of my classes , I would screw off or work on unrelated projects .
Why ? Because I finished the work of a week in a day .
While my English class spent nearly two weeks reading Romeo and Juliet , I finished it in three days .
My teacher just let me sit there and listen to music .
Sure , at times I was productive with my free time .
But the fact is , the smartest kids are n't being challenged , which causes disruptions and unnecessarily halts their educational growth .
Also , the average kid is being challenged .
This will probably never happen because parents would be outraged if their children were n't " the brightest .
" Admittedly , this is just one problem .
But that 's how you solve larger problems-- you tackle the smaller problems and eventually you can begin making serious progress .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One problem with America's education system is that teachers are forced to teach to the lowest people in the class.
What we should be doing is segregating students who genuinely need more assistance (I could have used extra math help during HS).
During nearly all of my classes, I would screw off or work on unrelated projects.
Why? Because I finished the work of a week in a day.
While my English class spent nearly two weeks reading Romeo and Juliet, I finished it in three days.
My teacher just let me sit there and listen to music.
Sure, at times I was productive with my free time.
But the fact is, the smartest kids aren't being challenged, which causes disruptions and unnecessarily halts their educational growth.
Also, the average kid is being challenged.
This will probably never happen because parents would be outraged if their children weren't "the brightest.
" Admittedly, this is just one problem.
But that's how you solve larger problems-- you tackle the smaller problems and eventually you can begin making serious progress.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382406</id>
	<title>overwhelming social and economic forces</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267906440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
The Newsweek article is about getting rid of incompetent teachers. The NYT article is mainly about figuring out specific teaching techniques that are effective. I doubt that either of these will have any positive effect on K-12 education in the U.S. -- in fact, I'm convinced that essentially nothing that our society does as a whole can have any significant effect on average educational outcomes.
</p><p>
Our school system sends kids to schools near where they live. Where you live correlates with your family's income and education. By the time a kid is old enough for school, a number of extremely powerful factors have been at work in determining how well the kid will do in school. One kid grows up in a house full of books; the parents subscribe to newspapers; the adults talk about intellectual things at the dinner table. The other kid grows up in a house with no books or newspapers; the parents spend their free time watching TV.
</p><p>
Let's say the authors of the Newsweek article get their way, and bad teachers are fired. The problem is that (a) the school now has to hire a replacement, and (b) there's a reason why the school hired a lousy candidate the first time around. There is a job market for schoolteachers. The reason the school hired a lousy candidate the first time around was because they had a lousy pool of applicants. Why did they have a lousy pool of applicants? Most likely because this is a school where 90\% of the kids qualify for the free lunch program. The best teachers generally don't want to teach in that kind of environment. They know that if they teach in that environment, they're getting the kids who have been growing up with TV and no books. They know they're going to spend more time on discipline than on academics. They know that a lot of the families are financially unstable, so they're always on the move; of the faces in the classroom on the first day of class, maybe 40\% will have been replaced with new faces by the last day of the year.
</p><p>
The NYT article talks about improving specific skills that teachers need. But they also admit that that can't make up for lack of subject knowledge, especially in math. As one of the articles notes, teaching and nursing are no longer the only career options for smart, talented women. I'm a college professor, and when I taught classes specifically targeted at preservice K-12 teachers, they were the worst students I'd ever had. In the job market, the vast majority of people applying for K-12 teaching jobs are just not such great students. In the US, 80\% of them have bachelor's degrees education, meaning that they basically got a diploma without ever having to learn a deep and specific body of knowledge in any particular subject. Sure, a few people do go to highly selective schools, get stellar grades in a real academic subject, and then move on to a career in K-12 teaching. The problem is that those people are few and far between. When they go on the job market, they have their pick of schools. Most of them are going to end up in affluent, suburban districts.
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The Newsweek article is about getting rid of incompetent teachers .
The NYT article is mainly about figuring out specific teaching techniques that are effective .
I doubt that either of these will have any positive effect on K-12 education in the U.S. -- in fact , I 'm convinced that essentially nothing that our society does as a whole can have any significant effect on average educational outcomes .
Our school system sends kids to schools near where they live .
Where you live correlates with your family 's income and education .
By the time a kid is old enough for school , a number of extremely powerful factors have been at work in determining how well the kid will do in school .
One kid grows up in a house full of books ; the parents subscribe to newspapers ; the adults talk about intellectual things at the dinner table .
The other kid grows up in a house with no books or newspapers ; the parents spend their free time watching TV .
Let 's say the authors of the Newsweek article get their way , and bad teachers are fired .
The problem is that ( a ) the school now has to hire a replacement , and ( b ) there 's a reason why the school hired a lousy candidate the first time around .
There is a job market for schoolteachers .
The reason the school hired a lousy candidate the first time around was because they had a lousy pool of applicants .
Why did they have a lousy pool of applicants ?
Most likely because this is a school where 90 \ % of the kids qualify for the free lunch program .
The best teachers generally do n't want to teach in that kind of environment .
They know that if they teach in that environment , they 're getting the kids who have been growing up with TV and no books .
They know they 're going to spend more time on discipline than on academics .
They know that a lot of the families are financially unstable , so they 're always on the move ; of the faces in the classroom on the first day of class , maybe 40 \ % will have been replaced with new faces by the last day of the year .
The NYT article talks about improving specific skills that teachers need .
But they also admit that that ca n't make up for lack of subject knowledge , especially in math .
As one of the articles notes , teaching and nursing are no longer the only career options for smart , talented women .
I 'm a college professor , and when I taught classes specifically targeted at preservice K-12 teachers , they were the worst students I 'd ever had .
In the job market , the vast majority of people applying for K-12 teaching jobs are just not such great students .
In the US , 80 \ % of them have bachelor 's degrees education , meaning that they basically got a diploma without ever having to learn a deep and specific body of knowledge in any particular subject .
Sure , a few people do go to highly selective schools , get stellar grades in a real academic subject , and then move on to a career in K-12 teaching .
The problem is that those people are few and far between .
When they go on the job market , they have their pick of schools .
Most of them are going to end up in affluent , suburban districts .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
The Newsweek article is about getting rid of incompetent teachers.
The NYT article is mainly about figuring out specific teaching techniques that are effective.
I doubt that either of these will have any positive effect on K-12 education in the U.S. -- in fact, I'm convinced that essentially nothing that our society does as a whole can have any significant effect on average educational outcomes.
Our school system sends kids to schools near where they live.
Where you live correlates with your family's income and education.
By the time a kid is old enough for school, a number of extremely powerful factors have been at work in determining how well the kid will do in school.
One kid grows up in a house full of books; the parents subscribe to newspapers; the adults talk about intellectual things at the dinner table.
The other kid grows up in a house with no books or newspapers; the parents spend their free time watching TV.
Let's say the authors of the Newsweek article get their way, and bad teachers are fired.
The problem is that (a) the school now has to hire a replacement, and (b) there's a reason why the school hired a lousy candidate the first time around.
There is a job market for schoolteachers.
The reason the school hired a lousy candidate the first time around was because they had a lousy pool of applicants.
Why did they have a lousy pool of applicants?
Most likely because this is a school where 90\% of the kids qualify for the free lunch program.
The best teachers generally don't want to teach in that kind of environment.
They know that if they teach in that environment, they're getting the kids who have been growing up with TV and no books.
They know they're going to spend more time on discipline than on academics.
They know that a lot of the families are financially unstable, so they're always on the move; of the faces in the classroom on the first day of class, maybe 40\% will have been replaced with new faces by the last day of the year.
The NYT article talks about improving specific skills that teachers need.
But they also admit that that can't make up for lack of subject knowledge, especially in math.
As one of the articles notes, teaching and nursing are no longer the only career options for smart, talented women.
I'm a college professor, and when I taught classes specifically targeted at preservice K-12 teachers, they were the worst students I'd ever had.
In the job market, the vast majority of people applying for K-12 teaching jobs are just not such great students.
In the US, 80\% of them have bachelor's degrees education, meaning that they basically got a diploma without ever having to learn a deep and specific body of knowledge in any particular subject.
Sure, a few people do go to highly selective schools, get stellar grades in a real academic subject, and then move on to a career in K-12 teaching.
The problem is that those people are few and far between.
When they go on the job market, they have their pick of schools.
Most of them are going to end up in affluent, suburban districts.
</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31385968</id>
	<title>Re:You can't teach students that don't want to lea</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267891140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Unfortunately, the parents get five formative years before the teacher ever meets the student.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Unfortunately , the parents get five formative years before the teacher ever meets the student .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unfortunately, the parents get five formative years before the teacher ever meets the student.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31383146</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382382</id>
	<title>People love to blame problems on teachers</title>
	<author>ClosedSource</author>
	<datestamp>1267906380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>because that way, no additional work or money is required by the complainer to solve the problem.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>because that way , no additional work or money is required by the complainer to solve the problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>because that way, no additional work or money is required by the complainer to solve the problem.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382236</id>
	<title>Incorrect.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267905420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What they keep proposing in FL is not high speed rail, but <em>light rail</em>, which is rather more like a bus in speed,  carrying capacity and cost to operate, except that the routes are typically grade-separated in some way and would require significant new construction to alter or update.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What they keep proposing in FL is not high speed rail , but light rail , which is rather more like a bus in speed , carrying capacity and cost to operate , except that the routes are typically grade-separated in some way and would require significant new construction to alter or update .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What they keep proposing in FL is not high speed rail, but light rail, which is rather more like a bus in speed,  carrying capacity and cost to operate, except that the routes are typically grade-separated in some way and would require significant new construction to alter or update.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382024</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31383446</id>
	<title>Re:Good Teachers</title>
	<author>Hurricane78</author>
	<datestamp>1267870020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So in conclusion, since you didn&rsquo;t mention competency, they would be... politicians?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p><p>You know... inspiring, experienced, but not exactly what you had in mind.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So in conclusion , since you didn    t mention competency , they would be... politicians ? ; ) You know... inspiring , experienced , but not exactly what you had in mind .
; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So in conclusion, since you didn’t mention competency, they would be... politicians? ;)You know... inspiring, experienced, but not exactly what you had in mind.
;)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382178</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31392496</id>
	<title>Re:Some thoughts from a college teacher</title>
	<author>PingPongBoy</author>
	<datestamp>1267991940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><em>No one should teach anything above 3rd grade without a BA/BS in that field. With an education minor. No one should be allowed to teach anything, nothing, with an education degree. No one should be allowed to teach teachers who has not taught in a classroom for 5-10 years. Period. Exclamation point. Another idea: how about some respect? In America, that means, in part money, but how about we laugh at any smug jerk who says "those who can do..."? How about we teach our kids to obey and respect teachers? (Of course, this will require clearing the unrespectable deadwood first.) Also, how about being able to actually fail kids, at least at the high school level?</em></p><p>One of the salient points is that quality learning doesn't start until after high school. In this age of machines, is there any point to keeping kids in school until grade 12?</p><p>There isn't any point to failing kids in high school - if the work is too hard, the recourse has always been to create easier and easier work until an automatic pass was given for just showing up. After all, the kids keep coming in the K end and going out the old-enough-to-work end, and you don't want kids to have the I-am-19-and-just-finished-8th-grade hanging around their necks while they go job hunting.</p><p>How to get around the problem of being afraid to push kids hard?</p><p>Suppose education finishes years earlier? That could solve a lot of things. The idea is to have high school be done with at the tender age of grade 7 and let the kids get into a post secondary education of their choice.</p><p>1 - kids get really bored with grade school. It seems to prepare them for nothing real. After grade 7 grade school kind of simulates a higher education anyways but without accreditation, so why not just make it real?</p><p>2 - In this age of machines, even a little kid can push a button irresponsibly. It would be better to teach them responsibility with hands on experience. People who are too young to procreate tend to require close supervision, but they can learn readily to be in a chain of events where lives and money are at stake. We may gasp at kids in the JFK tower, but the adults at Toyota or AIG prove that age doesn't necessarily lead to responsibility. I say ingrain responsibility to the young or else the young will not somehow find their way.</p><p>3 - Parents are saving for years to help their kids buy a higher education. It would be easier if the higher education portion was transferred into the public education system, to replace what is now called "high school". This would make higher education available to more people. Those who aspire to be high school teachers may find they have to become professors, but that's the way it goes.</p><p>4 - Again it's the age of machines. The K-12 system just instills sedentariness into kids, forcing them to be drones in a classroom doing work that is one Google away. It teaches them that life is a charade, instead of preparing them or inspiring them. This why there is one economic bubble after another. People are taught from youth to chase money instead of dreams, so hordes follow the latest get-rich trend until they slide the slippery slope. At the end there are disparities in wealth distribution owing to too many people who learned to be drones and never taught how to get a start doing something new in the age of machines. A post secondary education environment would give kids a better opportunity to really experience the complexities behind the interface.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No one should teach anything above 3rd grade without a BA/BS in that field .
With an education minor .
No one should be allowed to teach anything , nothing , with an education degree .
No one should be allowed to teach teachers who has not taught in a classroom for 5-10 years .
Period. Exclamation point .
Another idea : how about some respect ?
In America , that means , in part money , but how about we laugh at any smug jerk who says " those who can do... " ?
How about we teach our kids to obey and respect teachers ?
( Of course , this will require clearing the unrespectable deadwood first .
) Also , how about being able to actually fail kids , at least at the high school level ? One of the salient points is that quality learning does n't start until after high school .
In this age of machines , is there any point to keeping kids in school until grade 12 ? There is n't any point to failing kids in high school - if the work is too hard , the recourse has always been to create easier and easier work until an automatic pass was given for just showing up .
After all , the kids keep coming in the K end and going out the old-enough-to-work end , and you do n't want kids to have the I-am-19-and-just-finished-8th-grade hanging around their necks while they go job hunting.How to get around the problem of being afraid to push kids hard ? Suppose education finishes years earlier ?
That could solve a lot of things .
The idea is to have high school be done with at the tender age of grade 7 and let the kids get into a post secondary education of their choice.1 - kids get really bored with grade school .
It seems to prepare them for nothing real .
After grade 7 grade school kind of simulates a higher education anyways but without accreditation , so why not just make it real ? 2 - In this age of machines , even a little kid can push a button irresponsibly .
It would be better to teach them responsibility with hands on experience .
People who are too young to procreate tend to require close supervision , but they can learn readily to be in a chain of events where lives and money are at stake .
We may gasp at kids in the JFK tower , but the adults at Toyota or AIG prove that age does n't necessarily lead to responsibility .
I say ingrain responsibility to the young or else the young will not somehow find their way.3 - Parents are saving for years to help their kids buy a higher education .
It would be easier if the higher education portion was transferred into the public education system , to replace what is now called " high school " .
This would make higher education available to more people .
Those who aspire to be high school teachers may find they have to become professors , but that 's the way it goes.4 - Again it 's the age of machines .
The K-12 system just instills sedentariness into kids , forcing them to be drones in a classroom doing work that is one Google away .
It teaches them that life is a charade , instead of preparing them or inspiring them .
This why there is one economic bubble after another .
People are taught from youth to chase money instead of dreams , so hordes follow the latest get-rich trend until they slide the slippery slope .
At the end there are disparities in wealth distribution owing to too many people who learned to be drones and never taught how to get a start doing something new in the age of machines .
A post secondary education environment would give kids a better opportunity to really experience the complexities behind the interface .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No one should teach anything above 3rd grade without a BA/BS in that field.
With an education minor.
No one should be allowed to teach anything, nothing, with an education degree.
No one should be allowed to teach teachers who has not taught in a classroom for 5-10 years.
Period. Exclamation point.
Another idea: how about some respect?
In America, that means, in part money, but how about we laugh at any smug jerk who says "those who can do..."?
How about we teach our kids to obey and respect teachers?
(Of course, this will require clearing the unrespectable deadwood first.
) Also, how about being able to actually fail kids, at least at the high school level?One of the salient points is that quality learning doesn't start until after high school.
In this age of machines, is there any point to keeping kids in school until grade 12?There isn't any point to failing kids in high school - if the work is too hard, the recourse has always been to create easier and easier work until an automatic pass was given for just showing up.
After all, the kids keep coming in the K end and going out the old-enough-to-work end, and you don't want kids to have the I-am-19-and-just-finished-8th-grade hanging around their necks while they go job hunting.How to get around the problem of being afraid to push kids hard?Suppose education finishes years earlier?
That could solve a lot of things.
The idea is to have high school be done with at the tender age of grade 7 and let the kids get into a post secondary education of their choice.1 - kids get really bored with grade school.
It seems to prepare them for nothing real.
After grade 7 grade school kind of simulates a higher education anyways but without accreditation, so why not just make it real?2 - In this age of machines, even a little kid can push a button irresponsibly.
It would be better to teach them responsibility with hands on experience.
People who are too young to procreate tend to require close supervision, but they can learn readily to be in a chain of events where lives and money are at stake.
We may gasp at kids in the JFK tower, but the adults at Toyota or AIG prove that age doesn't necessarily lead to responsibility.
I say ingrain responsibility to the young or else the young will not somehow find their way.3 - Parents are saving for years to help their kids buy a higher education.
It would be easier if the higher education portion was transferred into the public education system, to replace what is now called "high school".
This would make higher education available to more people.
Those who aspire to be high school teachers may find they have to become professors, but that's the way it goes.4 - Again it's the age of machines.
The K-12 system just instills sedentariness into kids, forcing them to be drones in a classroom doing work that is one Google away.
It teaches them that life is a charade, instead of preparing them or inspiring them.
This why there is one economic bubble after another.
People are taught from youth to chase money instead of dreams, so hordes follow the latest get-rich trend until they slide the slippery slope.
At the end there are disparities in wealth distribution owing to too many people who learned to be drones and never taught how to get a start doing something new in the age of machines.
A post secondary education environment would give kids a better opportunity to really experience the complexities behind the interface.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31384474</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382712</id>
	<title>New Approach</title>
	<author>McBeer</author>
	<datestamp>1267908240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've had 70+ teachers over the years.  Maybe 4 of them were "bad".  On the other hand, I've had to be in class with hundreds of lazy, disruptive, and/or stupid students who waste the entire class' time.  If we got rid of the dead weight students, we could improve as a whole.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've had 70 + teachers over the years .
Maybe 4 of them were " bad " .
On the other hand , I 've had to be in class with hundreds of lazy , disruptive , and/or stupid students who waste the entire class ' time .
If we got rid of the dead weight students , we could improve as a whole .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've had 70+ teachers over the years.
Maybe 4 of them were "bad".
On the other hand, I've had to be in class with hundreds of lazy, disruptive, and/or stupid students who waste the entire class' time.
If we got rid of the dead weight students, we could improve as a whole.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382210</id>
	<title>You know it after you have seen it.</title>
	<author>icebike</author>
	<datestamp>1267905300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In my personal experience, students are the best judge of teachers, once they reach the JR High/Middle school and are exposed to more than one teacher at a time.  Grade school kids usually have nothing to compare with "She who must be obeyed".</p><p>Looking back, students can identify the best teachers they ever had, those that got them interested in subjects, who got points across, who came prepared, and who usually had a closet full of source material accumulated over the years.</p><p>In a move that would surely bring the swat team today, we were handed a Civil war rifle to examine (inert), often instructed  by "The general" in full period uniform (regardless of the period being discussed), and howled in laughter as a canoe paddle and coon skin cap was produced from under the desk and he paddled his desk chair across the room.</p><p>This kind of imaginative teaching is now gone.  Instead we have dumbed down books and teachers instructed to follow it to the letter.</p><p>I suspect everyone can think back on their education and immediately identify a particular teacher that made an impression.  Both good and bad.  And more often than not that teacher will not have been the one teaching their favorite subject.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In my personal experience , students are the best judge of teachers , once they reach the JR High/Middle school and are exposed to more than one teacher at a time .
Grade school kids usually have nothing to compare with " She who must be obeyed " .Looking back , students can identify the best teachers they ever had , those that got them interested in subjects , who got points across , who came prepared , and who usually had a closet full of source material accumulated over the years.In a move that would surely bring the swat team today , we were handed a Civil war rifle to examine ( inert ) , often instructed by " The general " in full period uniform ( regardless of the period being discussed ) , and howled in laughter as a canoe paddle and coon skin cap was produced from under the desk and he paddled his desk chair across the room.This kind of imaginative teaching is now gone .
Instead we have dumbed down books and teachers instructed to follow it to the letter.I suspect everyone can think back on their education and immediately identify a particular teacher that made an impression .
Both good and bad .
And more often than not that teacher will not have been the one teaching their favorite subject .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In my personal experience, students are the best judge of teachers, once they reach the JR High/Middle school and are exposed to more than one teacher at a time.
Grade school kids usually have nothing to compare with "She who must be obeyed".Looking back, students can identify the best teachers they ever had, those that got them interested in subjects, who got points across, who came prepared, and who usually had a closet full of source material accumulated over the years.In a move that would surely bring the swat team today, we were handed a Civil war rifle to examine (inert), often instructed  by "The general" in full period uniform (regardless of the period being discussed), and howled in laughter as a canoe paddle and coon skin cap was produced from under the desk and he paddled his desk chair across the room.This kind of imaginative teaching is now gone.
Instead we have dumbed down books and teachers instructed to follow it to the letter.I suspect everyone can think back on their education and immediately identify a particular teacher that made an impression.
Both good and bad.
And more often than not that teacher will not have been the one teaching their favorite subject.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31389698</id>
	<title>Re:Good Teachers</title>
	<author>TheRaven64</author>
	<datestamp>1267976460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm not sure how it works in the USA, but in the UK experienced teachers cost more than newly qualified teachers.  When the school is struggling to afford textbooks to replace the ones that are falling apart (and shared between two students) and they're hiring someone to replace a retiring teacher, going for the NQT saves them a big chunk of budget.  Before my mother retired from teaching she saw this in quite a few places; schools that she interviewed at told her that they wanted to hire her, but they couldn't afford someone experienced.  </p><p>
Good teachers are usually qualified to do things other than teach, so when the hiring process starts selecting against the experienced ones, they don't just sit hoping for another teaching job, they leave the profession.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not sure how it works in the USA , but in the UK experienced teachers cost more than newly qualified teachers .
When the school is struggling to afford textbooks to replace the ones that are falling apart ( and shared between two students ) and they 're hiring someone to replace a retiring teacher , going for the NQT saves them a big chunk of budget .
Before my mother retired from teaching she saw this in quite a few places ; schools that she interviewed at told her that they wanted to hire her , but they could n't afford someone experienced .
Good teachers are usually qualified to do things other than teach , so when the hiring process starts selecting against the experienced ones , they do n't just sit hoping for another teaching job , they leave the profession .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not sure how it works in the USA, but in the UK experienced teachers cost more than newly qualified teachers.
When the school is struggling to afford textbooks to replace the ones that are falling apart (and shared between two students) and they're hiring someone to replace a retiring teacher, going for the NQT saves them a big chunk of budget.
Before my mother retired from teaching she saw this in quite a few places; schools that she interviewed at told her that they wanted to hire her, but they couldn't afford someone experienced.
Good teachers are usually qualified to do things other than teach, so when the hiring process starts selecting against the experienced ones, they don't just sit hoping for another teaching job, they leave the profession.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382678</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382338</id>
	<title>one problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267906080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>there aren't enough teachers now. How can we start firing them?</p><p>Fact of the matter is that any solution to fix failing schools will cost money they don't have (thats why their failing). Any real solution requires fixing school funding. That either means huge federal grants. (to districts full of local corruption already) or and end to localized funding with funding and control moving to the state level and that will never happen as the rich districts will never allow an even field.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>there are n't enough teachers now .
How can we start firing them ? Fact of the matter is that any solution to fix failing schools will cost money they do n't have ( thats why their failing ) .
Any real solution requires fixing school funding .
That either means huge federal grants .
( to districts full of local corruption already ) or and end to localized funding with funding and control moving to the state level and that will never happen as the rich districts will never allow an even field .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>there aren't enough teachers now.
How can we start firing them?Fact of the matter is that any solution to fix failing schools will cost money they don't have (thats why their failing).
Any real solution requires fixing school funding.
That either means huge federal grants.
(to districts full of local corruption already) or and end to localized funding with funding and control moving to the state level and that will never happen as the rich districts will never allow an even field.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382178</id>
	<title>Good Teachers</title>
	<author>Lije Baley</author>
	<datestamp>1267905060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How about hiring some charismatic, experienced teachers who will inspire the kids on a daily basis?  And they won't need higher salaries - just a nice bureaucracy and politics-free workplace.  I'd love to teach and make a real difference in our future, but the environment is just too toxic.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How about hiring some charismatic , experienced teachers who will inspire the kids on a daily basis ?
And they wo n't need higher salaries - just a nice bureaucracy and politics-free workplace .
I 'd love to teach and make a real difference in our future , but the environment is just too toxic .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about hiring some charismatic, experienced teachers who will inspire the kids on a daily basis?
And they won't need higher salaries - just a nice bureaucracy and politics-free workplace.
I'd love to teach and make a real difference in our future, but the environment is just too toxic.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31384160</id>
	<title>Re:Good Teachers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267875240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would be happy to have an administration that backs up teachers and funding for proper classrooms with seats and books for everyone.  Smaller class sizes are a perk, but I can work with larger classes if it means never having to supervise school fund raising projects ever again.  If the schools would fund after school programs, I'd give my time to those more happily too.  Instead of offering higher teach pay, how about funding student programs properly so that the teachers don't have to worry about getting money for student programs?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would be happy to have an administration that backs up teachers and funding for proper classrooms with seats and books for everyone .
Smaller class sizes are a perk , but I can work with larger classes if it means never having to supervise school fund raising projects ever again .
If the schools would fund after school programs , I 'd give my time to those more happily too .
Instead of offering higher teach pay , how about funding student programs properly so that the teachers do n't have to worry about getting money for student programs ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would be happy to have an administration that backs up teachers and funding for proper classrooms with seats and books for everyone.
Smaller class sizes are a perk, but I can work with larger classes if it means never having to supervise school fund raising projects ever again.
If the schools would fund after school programs, I'd give my time to those more happily too.
Instead of offering higher teach pay, how about funding student programs properly so that the teachers don't have to worry about getting money for student programs?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382178</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31384106</id>
	<title>DO NOT FIRE THE TEACHERS</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267874820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I hate this kind of article. You know why students are getting bad grades? Administrators.</p><p>Administrators don't provide funding for school supplies which the teachers must buy. The admins get cars, phones, and bonuses instead while the campus deteriorates.<br>Administrators refuse to expel violent, dangerous students with criminal backgrounds that are highly disruptive. Because every head in the classroom means more money for them.<br>Administrators will move heaven and earth to coerce teachers with excellent performance who are at the top of the pay scale to quit so they can hire cheap college grads who can't teach.<br>Administrators force teachers to pass all students regardless of their performance so SENIORS have the reading and writing skill levels of ELEMENTARY STUDENTS.<br>Administrators will sue teachers to get the legal rights to their own lesson plans so they can turn around and sell them themselves, and fire the teacher in the process.</p><p>How to we fix education? We FUND education. We remove the hierarchy of incompetent administrators that make up school districts. We spend money on things we NEED like clean, safe campuses, working lockers, working lab rooms, textbooks, and a campus security staff. We fund ESL because like it or not, every state along the border has a huge influx of Mexican children that need to know English in order to pass the standardized tests.</p><p>How to we hurt education? We fire teachers. We pour millions into 'technology in the classrooms' like webconferencing and laptops for every child. We assume every student knows English and punish schools where test scores are low despite the huge amount of non-English speakers in attendance.</p><p>DO NOT FIRE THE TEACHERS. They are the ONLY people in the school system trying to help the students. Teachers always get the short end of the stick and still do everything they can to provide for their students. Fire the administrators that are too busy racing up the corporate ladder and shitting all over the schools, teachers, and students in their wake.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I hate this kind of article .
You know why students are getting bad grades ?
Administrators.Administrators do n't provide funding for school supplies which the teachers must buy .
The admins get cars , phones , and bonuses instead while the campus deteriorates.Administrators refuse to expel violent , dangerous students with criminal backgrounds that are highly disruptive .
Because every head in the classroom means more money for them.Administrators will move heaven and earth to coerce teachers with excellent performance who are at the top of the pay scale to quit so they can hire cheap college grads who ca n't teach.Administrators force teachers to pass all students regardless of their performance so SENIORS have the reading and writing skill levels of ELEMENTARY STUDENTS.Administrators will sue teachers to get the legal rights to their own lesson plans so they can turn around and sell them themselves , and fire the teacher in the process.How to we fix education ?
We FUND education .
We remove the hierarchy of incompetent administrators that make up school districts .
We spend money on things we NEED like clean , safe campuses , working lockers , working lab rooms , textbooks , and a campus security staff .
We fund ESL because like it or not , every state along the border has a huge influx of Mexican children that need to know English in order to pass the standardized tests.How to we hurt education ?
We fire teachers .
We pour millions into 'technology in the classrooms ' like webconferencing and laptops for every child .
We assume every student knows English and punish schools where test scores are low despite the huge amount of non-English speakers in attendance.DO NOT FIRE THE TEACHERS .
They are the ONLY people in the school system trying to help the students .
Teachers always get the short end of the stick and still do everything they can to provide for their students .
Fire the administrators that are too busy racing up the corporate ladder and shitting all over the schools , teachers , and students in their wake .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I hate this kind of article.
You know why students are getting bad grades?
Administrators.Administrators don't provide funding for school supplies which the teachers must buy.
The admins get cars, phones, and bonuses instead while the campus deteriorates.Administrators refuse to expel violent, dangerous students with criminal backgrounds that are highly disruptive.
Because every head in the classroom means more money for them.Administrators will move heaven and earth to coerce teachers with excellent performance who are at the top of the pay scale to quit so they can hire cheap college grads who can't teach.Administrators force teachers to pass all students regardless of their performance so SENIORS have the reading and writing skill levels of ELEMENTARY STUDENTS.Administrators will sue teachers to get the legal rights to their own lesson plans so they can turn around and sell them themselves, and fire the teacher in the process.How to we fix education?
We FUND education.
We remove the hierarchy of incompetent administrators that make up school districts.
We spend money on things we NEED like clean, safe campuses, working lockers, working lab rooms, textbooks, and a campus security staff.
We fund ESL because like it or not, every state along the border has a huge influx of Mexican children that need to know English in order to pass the standardized tests.How to we hurt education?
We fire teachers.
We pour millions into 'technology in the classrooms' like webconferencing and laptops for every child.
We assume every student knows English and punish schools where test scores are low despite the huge amount of non-English speakers in attendance.DO NOT FIRE THE TEACHERS.
They are the ONLY people in the school system trying to help the students.
Teachers always get the short end of the stick and still do everything they can to provide for their students.
Fire the administrators that are too busy racing up the corporate ladder and shitting all over the schools, teachers, and students in their wake.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382078</id>
	<title>The solution is easy</title>
	<author>0xdeadbeef</author>
	<datestamp>1267904460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Pay them more.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Pay them more .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Pay them more.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31383124</id>
	<title>Teaching</title>
	<author>back2scool</author>
	<datestamp>1267867620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>       I am a teacher, and former software engineer. Keep blaming teachers for problems in education. The problems in education have nothing to do with parents who don't give a damn, or send their kids to school never having read a book to their children or shared reading with them. The problems in education have nothing to do with students who have no consequences for their actions, and are passed along be administrators who don't want to look bad. The problems have nothing to do with children who come to school for free breakfast and lunch, and carry Ipods and PSPs and the latest cell phones, but not pencils or notebooks. The problems have nothing to do with administrators shoving the latest educational fads down the throats of teachers who must follow the programs, and often even the scripts they must read, to keep their jobs. The problems have nothing to do with classrooms so crowded and disruptive, because public schools must teach EVERY child, no matter how much they act out, how often they cut school or class, or how much they bully, harass or abuse their classmates. After you experts try standing in front of a group of 33 different kids, six times a day, and actually spend time in a classroom, then talk about the lousy teachers who don't give a damn. Most of us actually do care, and try our best, in spite of the lack of resources and support from the communities, the kids and the administrators. Rather than sitting on your asses complaining about the lousy teachers, go volunteer at a school as a tutor, or mentor, or a teacher's aide. Unless you have been responsible for a classroom, you sound like a bunch of jackasses talking about crap you have only read about. You know, when someone tells you how simple it is to design a control system for a Toyota, or an operating system, who has never constructed a running program. It sounds almost that stupid...</htmltext>
<tokenext>I am a teacher , and former software engineer .
Keep blaming teachers for problems in education .
The problems in education have nothing to do with parents who do n't give a damn , or send their kids to school never having read a book to their children or shared reading with them .
The problems in education have nothing to do with students who have no consequences for their actions , and are passed along be administrators who do n't want to look bad .
The problems have nothing to do with children who come to school for free breakfast and lunch , and carry Ipods and PSPs and the latest cell phones , but not pencils or notebooks .
The problems have nothing to do with administrators shoving the latest educational fads down the throats of teachers who must follow the programs , and often even the scripts they must read , to keep their jobs .
The problems have nothing to do with classrooms so crowded and disruptive , because public schools must teach EVERY child , no matter how much they act out , how often they cut school or class , or how much they bully , harass or abuse their classmates .
After you experts try standing in front of a group of 33 different kids , six times a day , and actually spend time in a classroom , then talk about the lousy teachers who do n't give a damn .
Most of us actually do care , and try our best , in spite of the lack of resources and support from the communities , the kids and the administrators .
Rather than sitting on your asses complaining about the lousy teachers , go volunteer at a school as a tutor , or mentor , or a teacher 's aide .
Unless you have been responsible for a classroom , you sound like a bunch of jackasses talking about crap you have only read about .
You know , when someone tells you how simple it is to design a control system for a Toyota , or an operating system , who has never constructed a running program .
It sounds almost that stupid.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>       I am a teacher, and former software engineer.
Keep blaming teachers for problems in education.
The problems in education have nothing to do with parents who don't give a damn, or send their kids to school never having read a book to their children or shared reading with them.
The problems in education have nothing to do with students who have no consequences for their actions, and are passed along be administrators who don't want to look bad.
The problems have nothing to do with children who come to school for free breakfast and lunch, and carry Ipods and PSPs and the latest cell phones, but not pencils or notebooks.
The problems have nothing to do with administrators shoving the latest educational fads down the throats of teachers who must follow the programs, and often even the scripts they must read, to keep their jobs.
The problems have nothing to do with classrooms so crowded and disruptive, because public schools must teach EVERY child, no matter how much they act out, how often they cut school or class, or how much they bully, harass or abuse their classmates.
After you experts try standing in front of a group of 33 different kids, six times a day, and actually spend time in a classroom, then talk about the lousy teachers who don't give a damn.
Most of us actually do care, and try our best, in spite of the lack of resources and support from the communities, the kids and the administrators.
Rather than sitting on your asses complaining about the lousy teachers, go volunteer at a school as a tutor, or mentor, or a teacher's aide.
Unless you have been responsible for a classroom, you sound like a bunch of jackasses talking about crap you have only read about.
You know, when someone tells you how simple it is to design a control system for a Toyota, or an operating system, who has never constructed a running program.
It sounds almost that stupid...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31402536</id>
	<title>Re:Good Teachers</title>
	<author>BJ\_Covert\_Action</author>
	<datestamp>1268073480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I often think that our society's vision for teachers is to remove all individuality, all wiggle-room, all deviations from the norm.</p></div><p>
I think you could remove the teachers requirement in that statement and be pretty accurate. Society's vision seems to remove deviation from the norm in all walks of life.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I often think that our society 's vision for teachers is to remove all individuality , all wiggle-room , all deviations from the norm .
I think you could remove the teachers requirement in that statement and be pretty accurate .
Society 's vision seems to remove deviation from the norm in all walks of life .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I often think that our society's vision for teachers is to remove all individuality, all wiggle-room, all deviations from the norm.
I think you could remove the teachers requirement in that statement and be pretty accurate.
Society's vision seems to remove deviation from the norm in all walks of life.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382842</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382448</id>
	<title>Speaking as a teacher...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267906680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No offense, but more often than not, it is the home environment that determines whether a child will succeed or not when they reach school. Having said that, I COMPLETELY agree with the concept that a teacher can, and will, turn a student off of a subject, possibly forever due to their teaching style (or lack thereof).</p><p>Sadly, from a classroom perspective, you cannot hope to inspire every student in your class, no matter how many times you watch Mr. Holland's Opus - there are some student that will NEVER succeed in either a) your subject, or in some cases, b) school (whether or not that materialized into success after school is beyond the scope of the discussion). Firing teachers is a slippery slope because how do you determine success - by the kids' grades? I could 'teach to the test' if I were in constant fear of my job, I surely wouldn't inspire anybody that way, and as far as I'm concerned, I consider my pedagogy a success if I can inspire students to like the subject, regardless of how much they've learned, depending on the metric I'd surely be fired.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No offense , but more often than not , it is the home environment that determines whether a child will succeed or not when they reach school .
Having said that , I COMPLETELY agree with the concept that a teacher can , and will , turn a student off of a subject , possibly forever due to their teaching style ( or lack thereof ) .Sadly , from a classroom perspective , you can not hope to inspire every student in your class , no matter how many times you watch Mr. Holland 's Opus - there are some student that will NEVER succeed in either a ) your subject , or in some cases , b ) school ( whether or not that materialized into success after school is beyond the scope of the discussion ) .
Firing teachers is a slippery slope because how do you determine success - by the kids ' grades ?
I could 'teach to the test ' if I were in constant fear of my job , I surely would n't inspire anybody that way , and as far as I 'm concerned , I consider my pedagogy a success if I can inspire students to like the subject , regardless of how much they 've learned , depending on the metric I 'd surely be fired .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No offense, but more often than not, it is the home environment that determines whether a child will succeed or not when they reach school.
Having said that, I COMPLETELY agree with the concept that a teacher can, and will, turn a student off of a subject, possibly forever due to their teaching style (or lack thereof).Sadly, from a classroom perspective, you cannot hope to inspire every student in your class, no matter how many times you watch Mr. Holland's Opus - there are some student that will NEVER succeed in either a) your subject, or in some cases, b) school (whether or not that materialized into success after school is beyond the scope of the discussion).
Firing teachers is a slippery slope because how do you determine success - by the kids' grades?
I could 'teach to the test' if I were in constant fear of my job, I surely wouldn't inspire anybody that way, and as far as I'm concerned, I consider my pedagogy a success if I can inspire students to like the subject, regardless of how much they've learned, depending on the metric I'd surely be fired.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382344</id>
	<title>hire pedophiles and pederasts</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267906080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There is a gender crisis in education, with boys doing worse than girls almost across the board.  And there is a crisis, if anybody cared, in hiring of male teachers in elementary school.  Males that do enter teaching tend to leave for administrative positions.  The theory was that men preferred the higher wages, but other research has shown that men are under pressure to leave the classroom by a female-centered culture that distrusts men and their contacts with children.  Men are effectively banned from touching children, hugging them, being there for them.  The tendency is for men to become disillusioned with teaching.</p><p>The average male doesn't care about kids, except their own.  Teaching for them is just a job among others.</p><p>Pedophiles and pederasts are genetically programmed to be interested in kids.  For them teaching is their life's work.</p><p>If our society wasn't completely insane with paranoia, we could flood inner cities and impoverished areas with highly motivated teachers.  I guarantee</p><p>But nobody is willing to take the risk, and women like the control they have.  It may be hard to believe, but education was invented by men, and even a hundred years ago, teaching was dominated by men.  Today, male teachers are getting rare, and we're wondering about why we don't have as many good teachers.  50\% of the population is effectively kept out.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is a gender crisis in education , with boys doing worse than girls almost across the board .
And there is a crisis , if anybody cared , in hiring of male teachers in elementary school .
Males that do enter teaching tend to leave for administrative positions .
The theory was that men preferred the higher wages , but other research has shown that men are under pressure to leave the classroom by a female-centered culture that distrusts men and their contacts with children .
Men are effectively banned from touching children , hugging them , being there for them .
The tendency is for men to become disillusioned with teaching.The average male does n't care about kids , except their own .
Teaching for them is just a job among others.Pedophiles and pederasts are genetically programmed to be interested in kids .
For them teaching is their life 's work.If our society was n't completely insane with paranoia , we could flood inner cities and impoverished areas with highly motivated teachers .
I guaranteeBut nobody is willing to take the risk , and women like the control they have .
It may be hard to believe , but education was invented by men , and even a hundred years ago , teaching was dominated by men .
Today , male teachers are getting rare , and we 're wondering about why we do n't have as many good teachers .
50 \ % of the population is effectively kept out .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is a gender crisis in education, with boys doing worse than girls almost across the board.
And there is a crisis, if anybody cared, in hiring of male teachers in elementary school.
Males that do enter teaching tend to leave for administrative positions.
The theory was that men preferred the higher wages, but other research has shown that men are under pressure to leave the classroom by a female-centered culture that distrusts men and their contacts with children.
Men are effectively banned from touching children, hugging them, being there for them.
The tendency is for men to become disillusioned with teaching.The average male doesn't care about kids, except their own.
Teaching for them is just a job among others.Pedophiles and pederasts are genetically programmed to be interested in kids.
For them teaching is their life's work.If our society wasn't completely insane with paranoia, we could flood inner cities and impoverished areas with highly motivated teachers.
I guaranteeBut nobody is willing to take the risk, and women like the control they have.
It may be hard to believe, but education was invented by men, and even a hundred years ago, teaching was dominated by men.
Today, male teachers are getting rare, and we're wondering about why we don't have as many good teachers.
50\% of the population is effectively kept out.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31385304</id>
	<title>Ya just kick them out of school....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267885020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Kick them out of school at the beginning of the year, then what do you have. Happy Harry Hardon on the air Pumping up the Volume to tell the school board what's happening.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Kick them out of school at the beginning of the year , then what do you have .
Happy Harry Hardon on the air Pumping up the Volume to tell the school board what 's happening .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Kick them out of school at the beginning of the year, then what do you have.
Happy Harry Hardon on the air Pumping up the Volume to tell the school board what's happening.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382712</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31389254</id>
	<title>Re:Why teachers matter.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267973940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>You might find The Economist's recent coverage of the same material interesting.  By the way, I had a similar experience with an outrageously good teacher: he taught the entire (two year) A-level syllabus in a term, then went on to cover multi-variable calculus, some group theory and linear algebra before putting us in for the exam a year early.  The only downside was arriving at uni and sitting through interminable lectures covering the same ground a lot more slowly.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You might find The Economist 's recent coverage of the same material interesting .
By the way , I had a similar experience with an outrageously good teacher : he taught the entire ( two year ) A-level syllabus in a term , then went on to cover multi-variable calculus , some group theory and linear algebra before putting us in for the exam a year early .
The only downside was arriving at uni and sitting through interminable lectures covering the same ground a lot more slowly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You might find The Economist's recent coverage of the same material interesting.
By the way, I had a similar experience with an outrageously good teacher: he taught the entire (two year) A-level syllabus in a term, then went on to cover multi-variable calculus, some group theory and linear algebra before putting us in for the exam a year early.
The only downside was arriving at uni and sitting through interminable lectures covering the same ground a lot more slowly.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382930</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31385054</id>
	<title>Re:People love to blame problems on teachers</title>
	<author>Kohath</author>
	<datestamp>1267883280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Teachers love to blame problems on [parents|students|other scapegoat] because that way, no additional work or money is required by the complainer to solve the problem.</p></div><p>We need to stop letting them get away with that excuse.  If there's truly nothing the teacher can do, then that teacher's pay can be cut, or that teacher can be laid off.  The job still won't get done, but the money from the failing teacher's salary can be used for something productive.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Teachers love to blame problems on [ parents | students | other scapegoat ] because that way , no additional work or money is required by the complainer to solve the problem.We need to stop letting them get away with that excuse .
If there 's truly nothing the teacher can do , then that teacher 's pay can be cut , or that teacher can be laid off .
The job still wo n't get done , but the money from the failing teacher 's salary can be used for something productive .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Teachers love to blame problems on [parents|students|other scapegoat] because that way, no additional work or money is required by the complainer to solve the problem.We need to stop letting them get away with that excuse.
If there's truly nothing the teacher can do, then that teacher's pay can be cut, or that teacher can be laid off.
The job still won't get done, but the money from the failing teacher's salary can be used for something productive.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382778</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31384058</id>
	<title>Re:People love to blame problems on teachers</title>
	<author>lkeagle</author>
	<datestamp>1267874520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>OK, I'm a little tired of this argument.  So let's clarify what teachers are actually saying:</p><p>1) Teachers do want to solve the problem, despite your obvious disbelief<br>2) Teachers know that personal attention is one of the best motivators of student performance<br>3) Teachers want smaller class sizes in order to provide more personal attention<br>4) Smaller class sizes require more teachers<br>5) More teachers cost $$$<br>6) Since they don't get the $$$ to hire new teachers, existing teachers ask parents of poor-performing students to help support the education of their own children<br>7) Parents who don't support public education, or who don't care about the success of their children, laugh and complain that the teacher isn't doing their job</p><p>You may be surprised to learn that there's a significant minority of parents that believe that teachers are just babysitters, and that school is just something that the government unnecessarily requires their children to do.  I can promise you that the number of parents in any poorly performing school district that don't support their kids' education is far, far, far greater than the number of teachers in that district that are inept.  Although I agree that those teachers should be replaced, the conclusion that replacing all of the crappy teachers will lead to significant improvement in education is completely baseless.</p><p>In the end, if the student doesn't want to learn, then they won't.  There's plenty of blame to go around for that, but bad teachers is probably the least statistically significant.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>OK , I 'm a little tired of this argument .
So let 's clarify what teachers are actually saying : 1 ) Teachers do want to solve the problem , despite your obvious disbelief2 ) Teachers know that personal attention is one of the best motivators of student performance3 ) Teachers want smaller class sizes in order to provide more personal attention4 ) Smaller class sizes require more teachers5 ) More teachers cost $ $ $ 6 ) Since they do n't get the $ $ $ to hire new teachers , existing teachers ask parents of poor-performing students to help support the education of their own children7 ) Parents who do n't support public education , or who do n't care about the success of their children , laugh and complain that the teacher is n't doing their jobYou may be surprised to learn that there 's a significant minority of parents that believe that teachers are just babysitters , and that school is just something that the government unnecessarily requires their children to do .
I can promise you that the number of parents in any poorly performing school district that do n't support their kids ' education is far , far , far greater than the number of teachers in that district that are inept .
Although I agree that those teachers should be replaced , the conclusion that replacing all of the crappy teachers will lead to significant improvement in education is completely baseless.In the end , if the student does n't want to learn , then they wo n't .
There 's plenty of blame to go around for that , but bad teachers is probably the least statistically significant .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>OK, I'm a little tired of this argument.
So let's clarify what teachers are actually saying:1) Teachers do want to solve the problem, despite your obvious disbelief2) Teachers know that personal attention is one of the best motivators of student performance3) Teachers want smaller class sizes in order to provide more personal attention4) Smaller class sizes require more teachers5) More teachers cost $$$6) Since they don't get the $$$ to hire new teachers, existing teachers ask parents of poor-performing students to help support the education of their own children7) Parents who don't support public education, or who don't care about the success of their children, laugh and complain that the teacher isn't doing their jobYou may be surprised to learn that there's a significant minority of parents that believe that teachers are just babysitters, and that school is just something that the government unnecessarily requires their children to do.
I can promise you that the number of parents in any poorly performing school district that don't support their kids' education is far, far, far greater than the number of teachers in that district that are inept.
Although I agree that those teachers should be replaced, the conclusion that replacing all of the crappy teachers will lead to significant improvement in education is completely baseless.In the end, if the student doesn't want to learn, then they won't.
There's plenty of blame to go around for that, but bad teachers is probably the least statistically significant.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382778</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31386912</id>
	<title>Re:New Approach</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267902000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Exactly.  Teaching to the lowest common denominator is sinking everyone.  Rather than having one honors class and five absolute moron classes for everyone else in a given subject, we need six different classes in that subject with everyone placed according to their rank among the student body.  They'll take the same tests to earn their grades, but the students in the sixth class will all get Fs because they're morons who don't do their homework and keep disrupting the other morons.  The angels in the first class will, naturall, get As.  They're the natural aristocracy.  But the second, third, and fourth classes will have lots of As too now that the retards have been segregated.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Exactly .
Teaching to the lowest common denominator is sinking everyone .
Rather than having one honors class and five absolute moron classes for everyone else in a given subject , we need six different classes in that subject with everyone placed according to their rank among the student body .
They 'll take the same tests to earn their grades , but the students in the sixth class will all get Fs because they 're morons who do n't do their homework and keep disrupting the other morons .
The angels in the first class will , naturall , get As .
They 're the natural aristocracy .
But the second , third , and fourth classes will have lots of As too now that the retards have been segregated .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Exactly.
Teaching to the lowest common denominator is sinking everyone.
Rather than having one honors class and five absolute moron classes for everyone else in a given subject, we need six different classes in that subject with everyone placed according to their rank among the student body.
They'll take the same tests to earn their grades, but the students in the sixth class will all get Fs because they're morons who don't do their homework and keep disrupting the other morons.
The angels in the first class will, naturall, get As.
They're the natural aristocracy.
But the second, third, and fourth classes will have lots of As too now that the retards have been segregated.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382712</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382708</id>
	<title>Improving Education through Better Parents</title>
	<author>sweatyboatman</author>
	<datestamp>1267908180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>not everyone can be a fantastic teacher (in the same way that not everyone can be a concert pianist) no matter how well they are trained.  and there aren't enough people with the temperament, focus, love, patience and understanding that make up a fantastic teacher to teach every child on every subject.</p><p>unless you're very wealthy (and probably even then) your children are going to have teachers that are not inspirational.  and perhaps they're not even particularly well informed.  or perhaps your child's teacher is truly inspirational, but it turns out that he or she is not inspirational in a way that works for your child.  your child will spend day after day, hour after hour sitting through interminable lectures and stupid pointless presentations.  they will get useless comments on their school work and they'll bring home ridiculous assignments.  And just in case you think it's just in your imagination, your neighbor's lod will be assigned to a more capable teacher in the same subject.</p><p>well clearly, due to this terrible misfortune, your child will end up working at a gas station for the rest of his life.</p><p>it seems to me that many parents look on education as some sort of passive process (your kid goes to school for 12 years and comes out Enhanced With Knowledge&#174; ).  so when they see their child struggling in school they naturally think the school is broken.  they want better teachers and better facilities to put the knowledge into their child!  Well, it couldn't hurt.  But real learning happens only when the student is actively involved in the process.  Yes, excellent teachers know how to make subjects come alive for their students, but students need to be able to inspire themselves.</p><p>If it takes an army of miraculous teachers to get a person to graduate high school, that person is going to have serious issues when they confront a world full of people who aren't exerting every particle of effort into making them successful.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>not everyone can be a fantastic teacher ( in the same way that not everyone can be a concert pianist ) no matter how well they are trained .
and there are n't enough people with the temperament , focus , love , patience and understanding that make up a fantastic teacher to teach every child on every subject.unless you 're very wealthy ( and probably even then ) your children are going to have teachers that are not inspirational .
and perhaps they 're not even particularly well informed .
or perhaps your child 's teacher is truly inspirational , but it turns out that he or she is not inspirational in a way that works for your child .
your child will spend day after day , hour after hour sitting through interminable lectures and stupid pointless presentations .
they will get useless comments on their school work and they 'll bring home ridiculous assignments .
And just in case you think it 's just in your imagination , your neighbor 's lod will be assigned to a more capable teacher in the same subject.well clearly , due to this terrible misfortune , your child will end up working at a gas station for the rest of his life.it seems to me that many parents look on education as some sort of passive process ( your kid goes to school for 12 years and comes out Enhanced With Knowledge   ) .
so when they see their child struggling in school they naturally think the school is broken .
they want better teachers and better facilities to put the knowledge into their child !
Well , it could n't hurt .
But real learning happens only when the student is actively involved in the process .
Yes , excellent teachers know how to make subjects come alive for their students , but students need to be able to inspire themselves.If it takes an army of miraculous teachers to get a person to graduate high school , that person is going to have serious issues when they confront a world full of people who are n't exerting every particle of effort into making them successful .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>not everyone can be a fantastic teacher (in the same way that not everyone can be a concert pianist) no matter how well they are trained.
and there aren't enough people with the temperament, focus, love, patience and understanding that make up a fantastic teacher to teach every child on every subject.unless you're very wealthy (and probably even then) your children are going to have teachers that are not inspirational.
and perhaps they're not even particularly well informed.
or perhaps your child's teacher is truly inspirational, but it turns out that he or she is not inspirational in a way that works for your child.
your child will spend day after day, hour after hour sitting through interminable lectures and stupid pointless presentations.
they will get useless comments on their school work and they'll bring home ridiculous assignments.
And just in case you think it's just in your imagination, your neighbor's lod will be assigned to a more capable teacher in the same subject.well clearly, due to this terrible misfortune, your child will end up working at a gas station for the rest of his life.it seems to me that many parents look on education as some sort of passive process (your kid goes to school for 12 years and comes out Enhanced With Knowledge® ).
so when they see their child struggling in school they naturally think the school is broken.
they want better teachers and better facilities to put the knowledge into their child!
Well, it couldn't hurt.
But real learning happens only when the student is actively involved in the process.
Yes, excellent teachers know how to make subjects come alive for their students, but students need to be able to inspire themselves.If it takes an army of miraculous teachers to get a person to graduate high school, that person is going to have serious issues when they confront a world full of people who aren't exerting every particle of effort into making them successful.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382698</id>
	<title>The school boards fail, NOT the teachers.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267908180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Being a socialized element they are at the mercy of the Federal Imperial government for funding and a major chunk of that funding is directly related to active attendance of student. In order to squeeze every last penny they could out of the Federal Imperial government school boards started to come up with rather brilliant ideas of catering to the ignorant cockroach wetback border bunnies from our ever so well run and adjusted latrino wasteland neighbor to the South. You see, many of these roaches are just too stupid to learn basic American English in either spoken or written form and as such you may very well forget about anything in regards to math and science unless you are talking about basic accounting for the bags of drugs they sell which come in with each new 50+ addition to their family in their studio apartment each week and some of the more clever ones think science is cooking meth and smoking it around the flammable vapors of one of the ingredients. However, they breed like bunnies and flow as freely over the border as air through a gulfstream with no consequences or dire penalties or deterrents.</p><p>The solution?</p><p>Dumb down the curriculum!!!  English courses are not required as they can go to their English as a SECOND Language class which is taught by their cousin (they are all more inbred and related than the stereotypes of Southerners) who just let them run wild all over campus during class time. Math is capped out before even geometry much less algebra since they only need to count up to 6 or 13 to load bullets into their guns they use to constantly commit crimes ranging from theft to murder and rape. Science classes become sticking your hand in fire and grunting an accented "hot" before starting out the next grunts with "pinche caliente." History classes become one sentence summaries of entire events. The level of education was simply lowered all across all subjects to cater to these semi-intelligent cockroaches so as to increase and keep up the attendance. Of course it also goes without saying that all security on campus is then replaced with more wetbacks who turn a blind eye to the criminal activities and enterprises of all their cousins.</p><p>In the middle of all of this are the teachers who thought at one time they wanted to pursue something they liked and maybe even make a positive difference somehow. Don't point the fingers at them. I don't blame them one damn bit for being burned out and sick and tired of facing these criminal cockroaches they cannot even communicate with as they have guns and knives pulled on them while the board throws them under a bus and some other gutter trash parents find ambulance chasers who will try to litigate over shit so petty as even how somebody blinks.</p><p>Blame the school boards who chose greed over education.</p><p>Blame every last single moron who chooses to turn a blind eye towards or supports these cockroach wetbacks. Especially the ones who oppose the harsh treatment needed to take care of this invasive infestation of these cockroach border bunnies who are slowly but surely making a large contribution into the decay of America into another latrino 3rd world wasteland. No English, no life; gas em and cremate em. Maybe start sending these illegals back missing an arm, or a leg or an eye and see how many times they want to crawl under a fence to have something else chopped off.</p><p>American: the new synonym for spineless dumbed down idiot.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Being a socialized element they are at the mercy of the Federal Imperial government for funding and a major chunk of that funding is directly related to active attendance of student .
In order to squeeze every last penny they could out of the Federal Imperial government school boards started to come up with rather brilliant ideas of catering to the ignorant cockroach wetback border bunnies from our ever so well run and adjusted latrino wasteland neighbor to the South .
You see , many of these roaches are just too stupid to learn basic American English in either spoken or written form and as such you may very well forget about anything in regards to math and science unless you are talking about basic accounting for the bags of drugs they sell which come in with each new 50 + addition to their family in their studio apartment each week and some of the more clever ones think science is cooking meth and smoking it around the flammable vapors of one of the ingredients .
However , they breed like bunnies and flow as freely over the border as air through a gulfstream with no consequences or dire penalties or deterrents.The solution ? Dumb down the curriculum ! ! !
English courses are not required as they can go to their English as a SECOND Language class which is taught by their cousin ( they are all more inbred and related than the stereotypes of Southerners ) who just let them run wild all over campus during class time .
Math is capped out before even geometry much less algebra since they only need to count up to 6 or 13 to load bullets into their guns they use to constantly commit crimes ranging from theft to murder and rape .
Science classes become sticking your hand in fire and grunting an accented " hot " before starting out the next grunts with " pinche caliente .
" History classes become one sentence summaries of entire events .
The level of education was simply lowered all across all subjects to cater to these semi-intelligent cockroaches so as to increase and keep up the attendance .
Of course it also goes without saying that all security on campus is then replaced with more wetbacks who turn a blind eye to the criminal activities and enterprises of all their cousins.In the middle of all of this are the teachers who thought at one time they wanted to pursue something they liked and maybe even make a positive difference somehow .
Do n't point the fingers at them .
I do n't blame them one damn bit for being burned out and sick and tired of facing these criminal cockroaches they can not even communicate with as they have guns and knives pulled on them while the board throws them under a bus and some other gutter trash parents find ambulance chasers who will try to litigate over shit so petty as even how somebody blinks.Blame the school boards who chose greed over education.Blame every last single moron who chooses to turn a blind eye towards or supports these cockroach wetbacks .
Especially the ones who oppose the harsh treatment needed to take care of this invasive infestation of these cockroach border bunnies who are slowly but surely making a large contribution into the decay of America into another latrino 3rd world wasteland .
No English , no life ; gas em and cremate em .
Maybe start sending these illegals back missing an arm , or a leg or an eye and see how many times they want to crawl under a fence to have something else chopped off.American : the new synonym for spineless dumbed down idiot .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Being a socialized element they are at the mercy of the Federal Imperial government for funding and a major chunk of that funding is directly related to active attendance of student.
In order to squeeze every last penny they could out of the Federal Imperial government school boards started to come up with rather brilliant ideas of catering to the ignorant cockroach wetback border bunnies from our ever so well run and adjusted latrino wasteland neighbor to the South.
You see, many of these roaches are just too stupid to learn basic American English in either spoken or written form and as such you may very well forget about anything in regards to math and science unless you are talking about basic accounting for the bags of drugs they sell which come in with each new 50+ addition to their family in their studio apartment each week and some of the more clever ones think science is cooking meth and smoking it around the flammable vapors of one of the ingredients.
However, they breed like bunnies and flow as freely over the border as air through a gulfstream with no consequences or dire penalties or deterrents.The solution?Dumb down the curriculum!!!
English courses are not required as they can go to their English as a SECOND Language class which is taught by their cousin (they are all more inbred and related than the stereotypes of Southerners) who just let them run wild all over campus during class time.
Math is capped out before even geometry much less algebra since they only need to count up to 6 or 13 to load bullets into their guns they use to constantly commit crimes ranging from theft to murder and rape.
Science classes become sticking your hand in fire and grunting an accented "hot" before starting out the next grunts with "pinche caliente.
" History classes become one sentence summaries of entire events.
The level of education was simply lowered all across all subjects to cater to these semi-intelligent cockroaches so as to increase and keep up the attendance.
Of course it also goes without saying that all security on campus is then replaced with more wetbacks who turn a blind eye to the criminal activities and enterprises of all their cousins.In the middle of all of this are the teachers who thought at one time they wanted to pursue something they liked and maybe even make a positive difference somehow.
Don't point the fingers at them.
I don't blame them one damn bit for being burned out and sick and tired of facing these criminal cockroaches they cannot even communicate with as they have guns and knives pulled on them while the board throws them under a bus and some other gutter trash parents find ambulance chasers who will try to litigate over shit so petty as even how somebody blinks.Blame the school boards who chose greed over education.Blame every last single moron who chooses to turn a blind eye towards or supports these cockroach wetbacks.
Especially the ones who oppose the harsh treatment needed to take care of this invasive infestation of these cockroach border bunnies who are slowly but surely making a large contribution into the decay of America into another latrino 3rd world wasteland.
No English, no life; gas em and cremate em.
Maybe start sending these illegals back missing an arm, or a leg or an eye and see how many times they want to crawl under a fence to have something else chopped off.American: the new synonym for spineless dumbed down idiot.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31384474</id>
	<title>Some thoughts from a college teacher</title>
	<author>supercrisp</author>
	<datestamp>1267878180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>My students are current researching this issue for a paper. My wife is also studying in the field of education. So I think I have a few things to say. First, my dad retired as a teacher, and he was barely breaking $30k when he did. That was about ten years ago. Teachers in East Tennessee, good ones, well, some are making $35k, with an MA or MS. That's too little. Then again, I have a doctorate, with publications, and I'm making $32, teaching 116 students this semester. If I quit, I could be replaced right away with some other sucker. So maybe it's the same for K-12. Next thought. The education K-12 teachers get is a joke. Worse than a joke, complete crap. I've been in the education building, listened to the courses and the professors. I don't say this lightly: these are not the people you want teaching teachers. Fire them all. Burn the building. Salt the earth. Start over. No one should teach anything above 3rd grade without a BA/BS in that field. With an education minor. No one should be allowed to teach anything, nothing, with an education degree. No one should be allowed to teach teachers who has not taught in a classroom for 5-10 years. Period. Exclamation point. Another idea: how about some respect? In America, that means, in part money, but how about we laugh at any smug jerk who says "those who can do..."? How about we teach our kids to obey and respect teachers? (Of course, this will require clearing the unrespectable deadwood first.) Also, how about being able to actually fail kids, at least at the high school level? We should also teach how to govern one's emotions, require physical education, complete nutrition, and discipline. Finally, we should decouple school funding from the individual districts. Yep. If you're rich and you want your kids to have a special school, you'd better be able to ante up at the private school. Otherwise, one big pot per state, with a fat chunk of federal money. And no money for tons of computers and AV. One class on word processing and a few other things. Beyond that, chalk or white boards. Save the money. Read books; talk. The return on the vast expense for the computers and other rapidly-obsolete tech just isn't worth it right now.</htmltext>
<tokenext>My students are current researching this issue for a paper .
My wife is also studying in the field of education .
So I think I have a few things to say .
First , my dad retired as a teacher , and he was barely breaking $ 30k when he did .
That was about ten years ago .
Teachers in East Tennessee , good ones , well , some are making $ 35k , with an MA or MS. That 's too little .
Then again , I have a doctorate , with publications , and I 'm making $ 32 , teaching 116 students this semester .
If I quit , I could be replaced right away with some other sucker .
So maybe it 's the same for K-12 .
Next thought .
The education K-12 teachers get is a joke .
Worse than a joke , complete crap .
I 've been in the education building , listened to the courses and the professors .
I do n't say this lightly : these are not the people you want teaching teachers .
Fire them all .
Burn the building .
Salt the earth .
Start over .
No one should teach anything above 3rd grade without a BA/BS in that field .
With an education minor .
No one should be allowed to teach anything , nothing , with an education degree .
No one should be allowed to teach teachers who has not taught in a classroom for 5-10 years .
Period. Exclamation point .
Another idea : how about some respect ?
In America , that means , in part money , but how about we laugh at any smug jerk who says " those who can do... " ?
How about we teach our kids to obey and respect teachers ?
( Of course , this will require clearing the unrespectable deadwood first .
) Also , how about being able to actually fail kids , at least at the high school level ?
We should also teach how to govern one 's emotions , require physical education , complete nutrition , and discipline .
Finally , we should decouple school funding from the individual districts .
Yep. If you 're rich and you want your kids to have a special school , you 'd better be able to ante up at the private school .
Otherwise , one big pot per state , with a fat chunk of federal money .
And no money for tons of computers and AV .
One class on word processing and a few other things .
Beyond that , chalk or white boards .
Save the money .
Read books ; talk .
The return on the vast expense for the computers and other rapidly-obsolete tech just is n't worth it right now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My students are current researching this issue for a paper.
My wife is also studying in the field of education.
So I think I have a few things to say.
First, my dad retired as a teacher, and he was barely breaking $30k when he did.
That was about ten years ago.
Teachers in East Tennessee, good ones, well, some are making $35k, with an MA or MS. That's too little.
Then again, I have a doctorate, with publications, and I'm making $32, teaching 116 students this semester.
If I quit, I could be replaced right away with some other sucker.
So maybe it's the same for K-12.
Next thought.
The education K-12 teachers get is a joke.
Worse than a joke, complete crap.
I've been in the education building, listened to the courses and the professors.
I don't say this lightly: these are not the people you want teaching teachers.
Fire them all.
Burn the building.
Salt the earth.
Start over.
No one should teach anything above 3rd grade without a BA/BS in that field.
With an education minor.
No one should be allowed to teach anything, nothing, with an education degree.
No one should be allowed to teach teachers who has not taught in a classroom for 5-10 years.
Period. Exclamation point.
Another idea: how about some respect?
In America, that means, in part money, but how about we laugh at any smug jerk who says "those who can do..."?
How about we teach our kids to obey and respect teachers?
(Of course, this will require clearing the unrespectable deadwood first.
) Also, how about being able to actually fail kids, at least at the high school level?
We should also teach how to govern one's emotions, require physical education, complete nutrition, and discipline.
Finally, we should decouple school funding from the individual districts.
Yep. If you're rich and you want your kids to have a special school, you'd better be able to ante up at the private school.
Otherwise, one big pot per state, with a fat chunk of federal money.
And no money for tons of computers and AV.
One class on word processing and a few other things.
Beyond that, chalk or white boards.
Save the money.
Read books; talk.
The return on the vast expense for the computers and other rapidly-obsolete tech just isn't worth it right now.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31387802</id>
	<title>Re:People love to blame problems on teachers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267957440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'd argue that parents deserve the lion's share of the blame. Upbringing has a huge deal to do with academic outcomes in students regardless of background, schooling, etc. But the hyena's share (so to speak) definitely goes to the teachers. Public school systems throughout the country are loaded down with more dead weight than they can handle, and all it does is leave students (students who are more likely than not already struggling with dysfunctional households, I.E. most lower class families in general) at a disadvantage while forcing teachers that actually do their jobs to pick up slack and take flak for the teachers who don't. I'm not an anti-unionist but, seriously, screw teachers unions. Break their backs. Around here, every time a teacher does something grossly inappropriate or fails to do his or her job properly (or any work at all) you can't get rid of them unless they've broken the law, no matter how many times they screw up. My school system's stance is to simply wait until they retire and hope that their replacements are less of a headache, since it's actually cheaper and easier to do it that way than to fire them while they're still harming the educational environment. This is not a joke, this actually happens. Trying to fire a teacher here without clear evidence of lawbreaking ensures a very expensive lawsuit which the school system is highly unlikely to win. Teachers unions do not care about performance - all they care about is monopolizing the power structures of public school systems to keep those dues rolling in, and that's crap.</p><p>Incompetent 'prestige-class' school administrators have a lot to do with it too, but that has more to do with mismanagement of the school system itself than directly interacting with the classroom. (As a rule, you can safely assume that a school administrator is no more than half as intelligent as the school's worst teacher, and the results of that play out daily in cities like mine.)</p><p>Much of the dysfunction in our country's school systems could be resolved by cleaning house, removing underachieving teachers (or depending on age and tenure, placing them on the fast track to retirement; the younger ones are a lot easier to fire and usually hold less sway in the community), and keeping the dead weight under control. It'd also be nice if parents knew how to raise kids anymore, but I don't see that changing without a groundswell of profound cultural tension; in my unqualified opinion, that's at least a generation away.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd argue that parents deserve the lion 's share of the blame .
Upbringing has a huge deal to do with academic outcomes in students regardless of background , schooling , etc .
But the hyena 's share ( so to speak ) definitely goes to the teachers .
Public school systems throughout the country are loaded down with more dead weight than they can handle , and all it does is leave students ( students who are more likely than not already struggling with dysfunctional households , I.E .
most lower class families in general ) at a disadvantage while forcing teachers that actually do their jobs to pick up slack and take flak for the teachers who do n't .
I 'm not an anti-unionist but , seriously , screw teachers unions .
Break their backs .
Around here , every time a teacher does something grossly inappropriate or fails to do his or her job properly ( or any work at all ) you ca n't get rid of them unless they 've broken the law , no matter how many times they screw up .
My school system 's stance is to simply wait until they retire and hope that their replacements are less of a headache , since it 's actually cheaper and easier to do it that way than to fire them while they 're still harming the educational environment .
This is not a joke , this actually happens .
Trying to fire a teacher here without clear evidence of lawbreaking ensures a very expensive lawsuit which the school system is highly unlikely to win .
Teachers unions do not care about performance - all they care about is monopolizing the power structures of public school systems to keep those dues rolling in , and that 's crap.Incompetent 'prestige-class ' school administrators have a lot to do with it too , but that has more to do with mismanagement of the school system itself than directly interacting with the classroom .
( As a rule , you can safely assume that a school administrator is no more than half as intelligent as the school 's worst teacher , and the results of that play out daily in cities like mine .
) Much of the dysfunction in our country 's school systems could be resolved by cleaning house , removing underachieving teachers ( or depending on age and tenure , placing them on the fast track to retirement ; the younger ones are a lot easier to fire and usually hold less sway in the community ) , and keeping the dead weight under control .
It 'd also be nice if parents knew how to raise kids anymore , but I do n't see that changing without a groundswell of profound cultural tension ; in my unqualified opinion , that 's at least a generation away .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd argue that parents deserve the lion's share of the blame.
Upbringing has a huge deal to do with academic outcomes in students regardless of background, schooling, etc.
But the hyena's share (so to speak) definitely goes to the teachers.
Public school systems throughout the country are loaded down with more dead weight than they can handle, and all it does is leave students (students who are more likely than not already struggling with dysfunctional households, I.E.
most lower class families in general) at a disadvantage while forcing teachers that actually do their jobs to pick up slack and take flak for the teachers who don't.
I'm not an anti-unionist but, seriously, screw teachers unions.
Break their backs.
Around here, every time a teacher does something grossly inappropriate or fails to do his or her job properly (or any work at all) you can't get rid of them unless they've broken the law, no matter how many times they screw up.
My school system's stance is to simply wait until they retire and hope that their replacements are less of a headache, since it's actually cheaper and easier to do it that way than to fire them while they're still harming the educational environment.
This is not a joke, this actually happens.
Trying to fire a teacher here without clear evidence of lawbreaking ensures a very expensive lawsuit which the school system is highly unlikely to win.
Teachers unions do not care about performance - all they care about is monopolizing the power structures of public school systems to keep those dues rolling in, and that's crap.Incompetent 'prestige-class' school administrators have a lot to do with it too, but that has more to do with mismanagement of the school system itself than directly interacting with the classroom.
(As a rule, you can safely assume that a school administrator is no more than half as intelligent as the school's worst teacher, and the results of that play out daily in cities like mine.
)Much of the dysfunction in our country's school systems could be resolved by cleaning house, removing underachieving teachers (or depending on age and tenure, placing them on the fast track to retirement; the younger ones are a lot easier to fire and usually hold less sway in the community), and keeping the dead weight under control.
It'd also be nice if parents knew how to raise kids anymore, but I don't see that changing without a groundswell of profound cultural tension; in my unqualified opinion, that's at least a generation away.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382778</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382110</id>
	<title>You can't teach students that don't want to learn.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267904640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ben Stein on America's education crisis: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8vcl17SPsM" title="youtube.com" rel="nofollow">High school students don't want to learn.</a> [youtube.com]</p><p>Ben Stein is a FUCKING GENIUS!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ben Stein on America 's education crisis : High school students do n't want to learn .
[ youtube.com ] Ben Stein is a FUCKING GENIUS !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ben Stein on America's education crisis: High school students don't want to learn.
[youtube.com]Ben Stein is a FUCKING GENIUS!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382024</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31383320</id>
	<title>Re:Better teachers and more funding !</title>
	<author>gd2shoe</author>
	<datestamp>1267868940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't think that vouchers are the "only way", but I agree that they're probably the easiest effective solution.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't think that vouchers are the " only way " , but I agree that they 're probably the easiest effective solution .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't think that vouchers are the "only way", but I agree that they're probably the easiest effective solution.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382282</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31386932</id>
	<title>Re:You know it after you have seen it.</title>
	<author>penguinchris</author>
	<datestamp>1267902300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Here's an anecdote regarding a good teacher allowing the display of weaponry in class, in this century.</p><p>In 2001 or so I was in 10th grade (I believe), and another student brought in (with permission - and encouragement - from the teacher) his grandfather's samurai sword, which he got in Japan during the occupation. It was passed around the history class for us to "feel the weight" (I guess). That's more dangerous than an inert civil war rifle, I would say. It sure made a big impression on a lot of students that day, and no one got disemboweled.</p><p>If teachers are willing to take risks like that (there is no risk of anyone getting hurt - I mean the risk that the teacher will get punished for allowing such a thing), the rewards for students can be great, and these I would say are the great teachers - ones who are willing to do whatever it takes to be a good teacher, even if it means going around the bureaucracy and rules of the school.</p><p>I am a TA, and I teach geology 101 lab classes. I wildly bend the rules of the school and department in many cases all throughout the semester, and the students love the class. I have covered for other TAs who had to miss their classes, and it's a wildly different environment where the TA is strict about the rules.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Here 's an anecdote regarding a good teacher allowing the display of weaponry in class , in this century.In 2001 or so I was in 10th grade ( I believe ) , and another student brought in ( with permission - and encouragement - from the teacher ) his grandfather 's samurai sword , which he got in Japan during the occupation .
It was passed around the history class for us to " feel the weight " ( I guess ) .
That 's more dangerous than an inert civil war rifle , I would say .
It sure made a big impression on a lot of students that day , and no one got disemboweled.If teachers are willing to take risks like that ( there is no risk of anyone getting hurt - I mean the risk that the teacher will get punished for allowing such a thing ) , the rewards for students can be great , and these I would say are the great teachers - ones who are willing to do whatever it takes to be a good teacher , even if it means going around the bureaucracy and rules of the school.I am a TA , and I teach geology 101 lab classes .
I wildly bend the rules of the school and department in many cases all throughout the semester , and the students love the class .
I have covered for other TAs who had to miss their classes , and it 's a wildly different environment where the TA is strict about the rules .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here's an anecdote regarding a good teacher allowing the display of weaponry in class, in this century.In 2001 or so I was in 10th grade (I believe), and another student brought in (with permission - and encouragement - from the teacher) his grandfather's samurai sword, which he got in Japan during the occupation.
It was passed around the history class for us to "feel the weight" (I guess).
That's more dangerous than an inert civil war rifle, I would say.
It sure made a big impression on a lot of students that day, and no one got disemboweled.If teachers are willing to take risks like that (there is no risk of anyone getting hurt - I mean the risk that the teacher will get punished for allowing such a thing), the rewards for students can be great, and these I would say are the great teachers - ones who are willing to do whatever it takes to be a good teacher, even if it means going around the bureaucracy and rules of the school.I am a TA, and I teach geology 101 lab classes.
I wildly bend the rules of the school and department in many cases all throughout the semester, and the students love the class.
I have covered for other TAs who had to miss their classes, and it's a wildly different environment where the TA is strict about the rules.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382210</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382682</id>
	<title>Uneducated teachers</title>
	<author>tombeard</author>
	<datestamp>1267908060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My wife runs an after school daycare, where she and her staff help with homework and tutoring. Math is a big problem for the kids. She finds that lots of kids are stuck on addition and subtraction when their classes are in multiplication and above. These children should not have progressed without the needed knowledge. She also sees problems given with no instruction, and very little usable information in the textbook. As an engineer, I can sometimes work out what they are trying to teach and it is usually some obtuse math principle completely irrelevant to the course. These teachers do not know their subject material, most of them don't comprehend math at all, they are just rote teaching the "method" they were given. When I was in school I thought a science lab and one summer I had a group of teachers taking my class to maintain their accreditation. They were seriously annoyed that I expected them to learn the science. The common refrain was "We don't want to learn how this works, we just want to learn how to teach it". As long as they have that mindset there will be no progress.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My wife runs an after school daycare , where she and her staff help with homework and tutoring .
Math is a big problem for the kids .
She finds that lots of kids are stuck on addition and subtraction when their classes are in multiplication and above .
These children should not have progressed without the needed knowledge .
She also sees problems given with no instruction , and very little usable information in the textbook .
As an engineer , I can sometimes work out what they are trying to teach and it is usually some obtuse math principle completely irrelevant to the course .
These teachers do not know their subject material , most of them do n't comprehend math at all , they are just rote teaching the " method " they were given .
When I was in school I thought a science lab and one summer I had a group of teachers taking my class to maintain their accreditation .
They were seriously annoyed that I expected them to learn the science .
The common refrain was " We do n't want to learn how this works , we just want to learn how to teach it " .
As long as they have that mindset there will be no progress .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My wife runs an after school daycare, where she and her staff help with homework and tutoring.
Math is a big problem for the kids.
She finds that lots of kids are stuck on addition and subtraction when their classes are in multiplication and above.
These children should not have progressed without the needed knowledge.
She also sees problems given with no instruction, and very little usable information in the textbook.
As an engineer, I can sometimes work out what they are trying to teach and it is usually some obtuse math principle completely irrelevant to the course.
These teachers do not know their subject material, most of them don't comprehend math at all, they are just rote teaching the "method" they were given.
When I was in school I thought a science lab and one summer I had a group of teachers taking my class to maintain their accreditation.
They were seriously annoyed that I expected them to learn the science.
The common refrain was "We don't want to learn how this works, we just want to learn how to teach it".
As long as they have that mindset there will be no progress.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31385002</id>
	<title>Re:Good Teachers</title>
	<author>cts5678</author>
	<datestamp>1267882740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>While you're asking for things, how about some pupils that are interested, rested, fed, healthy and able to behave for 6 to 8 hours a day?  How about some parents that actually care whether their children do their homework and respect the teachers?  I'd love to teach too, but not when I'm going to be held responsible for delivery of the whole social welfare package instead of just teaching.</htmltext>
<tokenext>While you 're asking for things , how about some pupils that are interested , rested , fed , healthy and able to behave for 6 to 8 hours a day ?
How about some parents that actually care whether their children do their homework and respect the teachers ?
I 'd love to teach too , but not when I 'm going to be held responsible for delivery of the whole social welfare package instead of just teaching .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While you're asking for things, how about some pupils that are interested, rested, fed, healthy and able to behave for 6 to 8 hours a day?
How about some parents that actually care whether their children do their homework and respect the teachers?
I'd love to teach too, but not when I'm going to be held responsible for delivery of the whole social welfare package instead of just teaching.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382178</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31383806</id>
	<title>About that Gates Foundation:</title>
	<author>ThEATrE</author>
	<datestamp>1267872780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>DIANE RAVITCH: &ldquo;The Billionaires Boys Club&rdquo; is a discussion of how we&rsquo;re in a new era of the foundations and their relation to education. We have never in the history of the United States had foundations with the wealth of the Gates Foundation and some of the other billionaire foundations&mdash;the Walton Family Foundation, The Broad Foundation. And these three foundations&mdash;Gates, Broad and Walton&mdash;are committed now to charter schools and to evaluating teachers by test scores. And that&rsquo;s now the policy of the US Department of Education. We have never seen anything like this, where foundations had the ambition to direct national educational policy, and in fact are succeeding...

<a href="http://www.democracynow.org/2010/3/5/protests" title="democracynow.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.democracynow.org/2010/3/5/protests</a> [democracynow.org]</htmltext>
<tokenext>DIANE RAVITCH :    The Billionaires Boys Club    is a discussion of how we    re in a new era of the foundations and their relation to education .
We have never in the history of the United States had foundations with the wealth of the Gates Foundation and some of the other billionaire foundations    the Walton Family Foundation , The Broad Foundation .
And these three foundations    Gates , Broad and Walton    are committed now to charter schools and to evaluating teachers by test scores .
And that    s now the policy of the US Department of Education .
We have never seen anything like this , where foundations had the ambition to direct national educational policy , and in fact are succeeding.. . http : //www.democracynow.org/2010/3/5/protests [ democracynow.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>DIANE RAVITCH: “The Billionaires Boys Club” is a discussion of how we’re in a new era of the foundations and their relation to education.
We have never in the history of the United States had foundations with the wealth of the Gates Foundation and some of the other billionaire foundations—the Walton Family Foundation, The Broad Foundation.
And these three foundations—Gates, Broad and Walton—are committed now to charter schools and to evaluating teachers by test scores.
And that’s now the policy of the US Department of Education.
We have never seen anything like this, where foundations had the ambition to direct national educational policy, and in fact are succeeding...

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/3/5/protests [democracynow.org]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31383784</id>
	<title>Personality can matter</title>
	<author>ooshna</author>
	<datestamp>1267872600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The best teacher I ever had was my American History teacher at the second high school i went to.  the crazy thing about it is that I already took and aced American History but because of problems with my old school none of my credits transferred and I had to start from scratch.  What made him a great teacher was that he believed in what he taught.  He was the only teacher I had that would take an entire class period to tell us personal stories related to the subject.  Such as he was one of the main students behind the Kent State Massacre (was actually portrayed in a movie about it) he talked about how they said they were going to napalm a dog.  He used to talk about how he would retire ever 5 years or so and take his pension or whatever it was and go exploring the world.  Stories about the Amazon and about temples in Tibet.  Even a few of when he was young backpacking through Europe and getting woke up to the sound of a  hay baler when he was sleeping in someones barn.  The guy had passion anytime we watched a movie or documentary on WWII he would start screaming at the TV with his fists clenched "kill those Nazi bastards" was a regular thing you could hear out of his classroom.  Like I said I already took an aced the class before but that didn't stop him from teaching me new things and pointing out the very important pasts of history the things that caused all the other stuff to happen.  Oh an on top of that he would smoke a joint in the parking lot with a few of the seniors.  Oh and I just found this his interview about the Kent State Massacre  <a href="http://speccoll.library.kent.edu/4may70/oralhistory/arthrell.html" title="kent.edu" rel="nofollow">http://speccoll.library.kent.edu/4may70/oralhistory/arthrell.html</a> [kent.edu]</htmltext>
<tokenext>The best teacher I ever had was my American History teacher at the second high school i went to .
the crazy thing about it is that I already took and aced American History but because of problems with my old school none of my credits transferred and I had to start from scratch .
What made him a great teacher was that he believed in what he taught .
He was the only teacher I had that would take an entire class period to tell us personal stories related to the subject .
Such as he was one of the main students behind the Kent State Massacre ( was actually portrayed in a movie about it ) he talked about how they said they were going to napalm a dog .
He used to talk about how he would retire ever 5 years or so and take his pension or whatever it was and go exploring the world .
Stories about the Amazon and about temples in Tibet .
Even a few of when he was young backpacking through Europe and getting woke up to the sound of a hay baler when he was sleeping in someones barn .
The guy had passion anytime we watched a movie or documentary on WWII he would start screaming at the TV with his fists clenched " kill those Nazi bastards " was a regular thing you could hear out of his classroom .
Like I said I already took an aced the class before but that did n't stop him from teaching me new things and pointing out the very important pasts of history the things that caused all the other stuff to happen .
Oh an on top of that he would smoke a joint in the parking lot with a few of the seniors .
Oh and I just found this his interview about the Kent State Massacre http : //speccoll.library.kent.edu/4may70/oralhistory/arthrell.html [ kent.edu ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The best teacher I ever had was my American History teacher at the second high school i went to.
the crazy thing about it is that I already took and aced American History but because of problems with my old school none of my credits transferred and I had to start from scratch.
What made him a great teacher was that he believed in what he taught.
He was the only teacher I had that would take an entire class period to tell us personal stories related to the subject.
Such as he was one of the main students behind the Kent State Massacre (was actually portrayed in a movie about it) he talked about how they said they were going to napalm a dog.
He used to talk about how he would retire ever 5 years or so and take his pension or whatever it was and go exploring the world.
Stories about the Amazon and about temples in Tibet.
Even a few of when he was young backpacking through Europe and getting woke up to the sound of a  hay baler when he was sleeping in someones barn.
The guy had passion anytime we watched a movie or documentary on WWII he would start screaming at the TV with his fists clenched "kill those Nazi bastards" was a regular thing you could hear out of his classroom.
Like I said I already took an aced the class before but that didn't stop him from teaching me new things and pointing out the very important pasts of history the things that caused all the other stuff to happen.
Oh an on top of that he would smoke a joint in the parking lot with a few of the seniors.
Oh and I just found this his interview about the Kent State Massacre  http://speccoll.library.kent.edu/4may70/oralhistory/arthrell.html [kent.edu]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31389158</id>
	<title>Re:  Not So Fast</title>
	<author>u38cg</author>
	<datestamp>1267973520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>No, you know that family income is correlated with educational outcomes, but you do not know that there is a linkage.  Perhaps it is because good teachers do not want to teach in such an area and hence schools only employ bad teachers.  And given the divergence in outcomes when you *do* employ better teachers, I would say that your thesis is not true.</htmltext>
<tokenext>No , you know that family income is correlated with educational outcomes , but you do not know that there is a linkage .
Perhaps it is because good teachers do not want to teach in such an area and hence schools only employ bad teachers .
And given the divergence in outcomes when you * do * employ better teachers , I would say that your thesis is not true .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, you know that family income is correlated with educational outcomes, but you do not know that there is a linkage.
Perhaps it is because good teachers do not want to teach in such an area and hence schools only employ bad teachers.
And given the divergence in outcomes when you *do* employ better teachers, I would say that your thesis is not true.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382894</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31386118</id>
	<title>Teach For America</title>
	<author>dewatf</author>
	<datestamp>1267892400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Teach For America have collected statistics on all their teachers and have tried and tested theories about what makes a good teacher. They have found only two variables that matter, and matter a great deal, and by focusing on these two features have improved the performance of their scheme.<br><br>Their best teachers:<br>1. Are enthusiastic and engage the class room<br>2. They ask the students questions to check they have learnt something and then adapt their approach till until the kids gets it.<br><br>Experience, background, race, education, master's degrees and class size etc. are all totally irrelevant.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Teach For America have collected statistics on all their teachers and have tried and tested theories about what makes a good teacher .
They have found only two variables that matter , and matter a great deal , and by focusing on these two features have improved the performance of their scheme.Their best teachers : 1 .
Are enthusiastic and engage the class room2 .
They ask the students questions to check they have learnt something and then adapt their approach till until the kids gets it.Experience , background , race , education , master 's degrees and class size etc .
are all totally irrelevant .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Teach For America have collected statistics on all their teachers and have tried and tested theories about what makes a good teacher.
They have found only two variables that matter, and matter a great deal, and by focusing on these two features have improved the performance of their scheme.Their best teachers:1.
Are enthusiastic and engage the class room2.
They ask the students questions to check they have learnt something and then adapt their approach till until the kids gets it.Experience, background, race, education, master's degrees and class size etc.
are all totally irrelevant.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31386420</id>
	<title>Re:Good Teachers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267895820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Personally, I've never understood the resistance to paying teachers more.</p></div><p>Here in Los Angeles, you can make six figures as a teacher by the time you retire, and the teachers here lick balls. The problem isn't that they don't pay enough to attract good teachers, the problem is that the way the bureaucracy frog-marches teachers through a mandatory teaching plan that gets more detailed every year. Good teachers won't stand for having their working lives completely scripted by morons in $200 suits who don't know shit about teaching.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Personally , I 've never understood the resistance to paying teachers more.Here in Los Angeles , you can make six figures as a teacher by the time you retire , and the teachers here lick balls .
The problem is n't that they do n't pay enough to attract good teachers , the problem is that the way the bureaucracy frog-marches teachers through a mandatory teaching plan that gets more detailed every year .
Good teachers wo n't stand for having their working lives completely scripted by morons in $ 200 suits who do n't know shit about teaching .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Personally, I've never understood the resistance to paying teachers more.Here in Los Angeles, you can make six figures as a teacher by the time you retire, and the teachers here lick balls.
The problem isn't that they don't pay enough to attract good teachers, the problem is that the way the bureaucracy frog-marches teachers through a mandatory teaching plan that gets more detailed every year.
Good teachers won't stand for having their working lives completely scripted by morons in $200 suits who don't know shit about teaching.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382842</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382426</id>
	<title>Prental Involment?</title>
	<author>YesDinosaursDidExist</author>
	<datestamp>1267906500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>We are forgetting a very important part of the formula here: the parents.  In many "at risk" districts teachers spend more than half their day making sure the kids aren't hungry, are behaving in class, have their homework completed, and have the supplies that they need like pencils.  Why is all this happening?  Because the parents are not involved in their kids lives.  Either they simply don't give a shit, or they are working more than 40 hours a week just to put food on the table.  No matter how good a teacher is, if the kid's home life sucks, or they are more worried about if they are going to be eating, they will never succeed.</htmltext>
<tokenext>We are forgetting a very important part of the formula here : the parents .
In many " at risk " districts teachers spend more than half their day making sure the kids are n't hungry , are behaving in class , have their homework completed , and have the supplies that they need like pencils .
Why is all this happening ?
Because the parents are not involved in their kids lives .
Either they simply do n't give a shit , or they are working more than 40 hours a week just to put food on the table .
No matter how good a teacher is , if the kid 's home life sucks , or they are more worried about if they are going to be eating , they will never succeed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We are forgetting a very important part of the formula here: the parents.
In many "at risk" districts teachers spend more than half their day making sure the kids aren't hungry, are behaving in class, have their homework completed, and have the supplies that they need like pencils.
Why is all this happening?
Because the parents are not involved in their kids lives.
Either they simply don't give a shit, or they are working more than 40 hours a week just to put food on the table.
No matter how good a teacher is, if the kid's home life sucks, or they are more worried about if they are going to be eating, they will never succeed.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382484</id>
	<title>Re:When the rot is entrenched at the highest level</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267906860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You do of course realize the state government has little to do with k-12 education. Thats really the problem.</p><p>School boards make all the decisions with no more qualification then getting 20 more votes then the next guy.<br>Poor students live in poor areas which equal poor funding which means fewer teachers and less resources for those that need the most.<br>Local control makes corruption easy to hide.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You do of course realize the state government has little to do with k-12 education .
Thats really the problem.School boards make all the decisions with no more qualification then getting 20 more votes then the next guy.Poor students live in poor areas which equal poor funding which means fewer teachers and less resources for those that need the most.Local control makes corruption easy to hide .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You do of course realize the state government has little to do with k-12 education.
Thats really the problem.School boards make all the decisions with no more qualification then getting 20 more votes then the next guy.Poor students live in poor areas which equal poor funding which means fewer teachers and less resources for those that need the most.Local control makes corruption easy to hide.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382162</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31386378</id>
	<title>Welcome Your Hammer Overlords</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267895280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Since students are obviously identical nails (or else pathologically distorted and in need of rearrangement and/or medication) all that needs to be done is find the right kind of hammer. At one time, and several times since, the standard flat face claw hammer sufficed. Then some education educators decided, or more likely wanted to find out just in case they guessed right, that a different configuration was better. So for a time every hammer had to be a 10 inch adjustable crescent hammer, a dual temperature pistol type soldering hammer, a self-amplifying coherent beam of kinetic impact quanta, and an occasional reversion to absolute basics using an absolute basic hunk of granite ('urgh') tied to a stick (a 'rurgha') with a piece of vine ('garugh') or some such. And when perfection proved unattainable, blame was placed (only for purposes of development of the next hypothesis) and a new paradigm with an entirely new hammer design was proposed to deal with all those still identical nails.</p><p>Different students have different learning styles. Teachers have the same, which results in their being better at some teaching styles. Different subjects have different classroom logistic requirements. Education has a sub-field, educational psychology, with which to develop hammer designs and test them for efficacy. Sadly, it is underutilized as an investigative science and instead serves as a source of rationalizations as to why the current up and coming hammer design is obviously superior.</p><p>Being educators rather than scientists, they typically cripple their research by considering averages without variances, and so miss the opportunities afforded by these differences. And being educators with their distinctive adherence to monolithic, industrial strength teaching styles, rather than aiming for similar outcomes via different paths, they restrict their style to a single path and require both teachers and students to perform optimally to the style du jour.</p><p>If by chance they should choose to investigate their subject in terms of differences of needs and styles, they might just happen to figure out that students and teachers can be arranged into different groupings according to needs, preferred styles and methods best suited to certain topics. Not only could they employ variables instead of dictum, they could maintain the variables dynamically, changing the groupings as necessary, and using the inevitable testing to check on how well the method is working for each individual, rather than using testing as a means to maximize similarity of outcome, and allow them to blame the students for failures.</p><p>To what extent can changing teaching styles, environments, and even making different learning styles permissible, improve the outcome? My favorite instance was one of my students who, having been diagnosed as ADD as a child was 'treated' by removal from a an environment requiring identical behavior even if medication were necessary, and placed in a Montessori school that not only tolerated but encouraged his "problem" of liking to switch back and forth between subjects/items/ideas according to his desires and interest rather than a clock face. He was one of my best students because he was allowed to become a good student according to his strengths, by teachers who'd been trained to adapt to the needs of their students, find their strengths, and emphasize them.</p><p>The current educational paradigm seeks to provide the greatest good to the greatest number. Unfortunately their assumption that a single teaching style enforced on all provides the most effective method of reaching the most is as fucked up as a football bat. That may be efficient for delivery, but is not so efficient when it comes to bringing all to an adequately similar outcome. Rather than adapting themselves at this point, educators tend to shift the blame and call their own failure to do their job the students' 'failure'. Of course they have a tradition of many years to use as justification, and they use the history itself as justification rather than exami</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Since students are obviously identical nails ( or else pathologically distorted and in need of rearrangement and/or medication ) all that needs to be done is find the right kind of hammer .
At one time , and several times since , the standard flat face claw hammer sufficed .
Then some education educators decided , or more likely wanted to find out just in case they guessed right , that a different configuration was better .
So for a time every hammer had to be a 10 inch adjustable crescent hammer , a dual temperature pistol type soldering hammer , a self-amplifying coherent beam of kinetic impact quanta , and an occasional reversion to absolute basics using an absolute basic hunk of granite ( 'urgh ' ) tied to a stick ( a 'rurgha ' ) with a piece of vine ( 'garugh ' ) or some such .
And when perfection proved unattainable , blame was placed ( only for purposes of development of the next hypothesis ) and a new paradigm with an entirely new hammer design was proposed to deal with all those still identical nails.Different students have different learning styles .
Teachers have the same , which results in their being better at some teaching styles .
Different subjects have different classroom logistic requirements .
Education has a sub-field , educational psychology , with which to develop hammer designs and test them for efficacy .
Sadly , it is underutilized as an investigative science and instead serves as a source of rationalizations as to why the current up and coming hammer design is obviously superior.Being educators rather than scientists , they typically cripple their research by considering averages without variances , and so miss the opportunities afforded by these differences .
And being educators with their distinctive adherence to monolithic , industrial strength teaching styles , rather than aiming for similar outcomes via different paths , they restrict their style to a single path and require both teachers and students to perform optimally to the style du jour.If by chance they should choose to investigate their subject in terms of differences of needs and styles , they might just happen to figure out that students and teachers can be arranged into different groupings according to needs , preferred styles and methods best suited to certain topics .
Not only could they employ variables instead of dictum , they could maintain the variables dynamically , changing the groupings as necessary , and using the inevitable testing to check on how well the method is working for each individual , rather than using testing as a means to maximize similarity of outcome , and allow them to blame the students for failures.To what extent can changing teaching styles , environments , and even making different learning styles permissible , improve the outcome ?
My favorite instance was one of my students who , having been diagnosed as ADD as a child was 'treated ' by removal from a an environment requiring identical behavior even if medication were necessary , and placed in a Montessori school that not only tolerated but encouraged his " problem " of liking to switch back and forth between subjects/items/ideas according to his desires and interest rather than a clock face .
He was one of my best students because he was allowed to become a good student according to his strengths , by teachers who 'd been trained to adapt to the needs of their students , find their strengths , and emphasize them.The current educational paradigm seeks to provide the greatest good to the greatest number .
Unfortunately their assumption that a single teaching style enforced on all provides the most effective method of reaching the most is as fucked up as a football bat .
That may be efficient for delivery , but is not so efficient when it comes to bringing all to an adequately similar outcome .
Rather than adapting themselves at this point , educators tend to shift the blame and call their own failure to do their job the students ' 'failure' .
Of course they have a tradition of many years to use as justification , and they use the history itself as justification rather than exami</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Since students are obviously identical nails (or else pathologically distorted and in need of rearrangement and/or medication) all that needs to be done is find the right kind of hammer.
At one time, and several times since, the standard flat face claw hammer sufficed.
Then some education educators decided, or more likely wanted to find out just in case they guessed right, that a different configuration was better.
So for a time every hammer had to be a 10 inch adjustable crescent hammer, a dual temperature pistol type soldering hammer, a self-amplifying coherent beam of kinetic impact quanta, and an occasional reversion to absolute basics using an absolute basic hunk of granite ('urgh') tied to a stick (a 'rurgha') with a piece of vine ('garugh') or some such.
And when perfection proved unattainable, blame was placed (only for purposes of development of the next hypothesis) and a new paradigm with an entirely new hammer design was proposed to deal with all those still identical nails.Different students have different learning styles.
Teachers have the same, which results in their being better at some teaching styles.
Different subjects have different classroom logistic requirements.
Education has a sub-field, educational psychology, with which to develop hammer designs and test them for efficacy.
Sadly, it is underutilized as an investigative science and instead serves as a source of rationalizations as to why the current up and coming hammer design is obviously superior.Being educators rather than scientists, they typically cripple their research by considering averages without variances, and so miss the opportunities afforded by these differences.
And being educators with their distinctive adherence to monolithic, industrial strength teaching styles, rather than aiming for similar outcomes via different paths, they restrict their style to a single path and require both teachers and students to perform optimally to the style du jour.If by chance they should choose to investigate their subject in terms of differences of needs and styles, they might just happen to figure out that students and teachers can be arranged into different groupings according to needs, preferred styles and methods best suited to certain topics.
Not only could they employ variables instead of dictum, they could maintain the variables dynamically, changing the groupings as necessary, and using the inevitable testing to check on how well the method is working for each individual, rather than using testing as a means to maximize similarity of outcome, and allow them to blame the students for failures.To what extent can changing teaching styles, environments, and even making different learning styles permissible, improve the outcome?
My favorite instance was one of my students who, having been diagnosed as ADD as a child was 'treated' by removal from a an environment requiring identical behavior even if medication were necessary, and placed in a Montessori school that not only tolerated but encouraged his "problem" of liking to switch back and forth between subjects/items/ideas according to his desires and interest rather than a clock face.
He was one of my best students because he was allowed to become a good student according to his strengths, by teachers who'd been trained to adapt to the needs of their students, find their strengths, and emphasize them.The current educational paradigm seeks to provide the greatest good to the greatest number.
Unfortunately their assumption that a single teaching style enforced on all provides the most effective method of reaching the most is as fucked up as a football bat.
That may be efficient for delivery, but is not so efficient when it comes to bringing all to an adequately similar outcome.
Rather than adapting themselves at this point, educators tend to shift the blame and call their own failure to do their job the students' 'failure'.
Of course they have a tradition of many years to use as justification, and they use the history itself as justification rather than exami</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31385202</id>
	<title>Re:In my experience, authority</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267884240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Imagine you are a Sysadmin, and you "get fired" if you do not know the new system rolling in. No training, no mentoring, nothing. Get it done, or face termination. Now translate this to teachers. They get educated (this is the ISO/OSI-Model), but there is little to no training at all concerning practical handling of the situation (your routing is not working because you are trying something that was taught in theory, but in practice we got some stuff that prevents this from working). Is this fair?<br>I am not saying that teachers should be paid for poor performance, but at least give them the training they need.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Imagine you are a Sysadmin , and you " get fired " if you do not know the new system rolling in .
No training , no mentoring , nothing .
Get it done , or face termination .
Now translate this to teachers .
They get educated ( this is the ISO/OSI-Model ) , but there is little to no training at all concerning practical handling of the situation ( your routing is not working because you are trying something that was taught in theory , but in practice we got some stuff that prevents this from working ) .
Is this fair ? I am not saying that teachers should be paid for poor performance , but at least give them the training they need .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Imagine you are a Sysadmin, and you "get fired" if you do not know the new system rolling in.
No training, no mentoring, nothing.
Get it done, or face termination.
Now translate this to teachers.
They get educated (this is the ISO/OSI-Model), but there is little to no training at all concerning practical handling of the situation (your routing is not working because you are trying something that was taught in theory, but in practice we got some stuff that prevents this from working).
Is this fair?I am not saying that teachers should be paid for poor performance, but at least give them the training they need.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382312</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382982</id>
	<title>Re:People love to blame problems on teachers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267866780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>bullshit, as every year we hear about horrible schools and how the only thing that will fix it is to give them more and more and more tax money just to hear the same shithole school next year begging for more money</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>bullshit , as every year we hear about horrible schools and how the only thing that will fix it is to give them more and more and more tax money just to hear the same shithole school next year begging for more money</tokentext>
<sentencetext>bullshit, as every year we hear about horrible schools and how the only thing that will fix it is to give them more and more and more tax money just to hear the same shithole school next year begging for more money</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_06_1712238.31382382</parent>
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