<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_03_02_2341236</id>
	<title>Write Bits Directly Onto a Hard Drive Platter?</title>
	<author>kdawson</author>
	<datestamp>1267525080000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>kidcharles writes <i>"I'm working on a project that requires writing bits to a magnetic hard drive platter in a completely controlled fashion. I need to be able to control exactly where 1s and 0s will appear physically on the platter. Normally when data is written to a drive the actual bits that get written are determined by the file system being used, as modified by whatever kind of error handling the drive itself is using (e.g. Reed-Solomon). All of the modern innovations in file systems and error handling are great for reliable and efficient data storage, but they are making my particular task quite daunting. My question for Slashdot: is there a way to get down to the 'bare metal' and write these bits? Any good utilities out there to do this? Obviously a free and open source solution would be preferable, but I'm open to anything at this point."</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>kidcharles writes " I 'm working on a project that requires writing bits to a magnetic hard drive platter in a completely controlled fashion .
I need to be able to control exactly where 1s and 0s will appear physically on the platter .
Normally when data is written to a drive the actual bits that get written are determined by the file system being used , as modified by whatever kind of error handling the drive itself is using ( e.g .
Reed-Solomon ) . All of the modern innovations in file systems and error handling are great for reliable and efficient data storage , but they are making my particular task quite daunting .
My question for Slashdot : is there a way to get down to the 'bare metal ' and write these bits ?
Any good utilities out there to do this ?
Obviously a free and open source solution would be preferable , but I 'm open to anything at this point .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>kidcharles writes "I'm working on a project that requires writing bits to a magnetic hard drive platter in a completely controlled fashion.
I need to be able to control exactly where 1s and 0s will appear physically on the platter.
Normally when data is written to a drive the actual bits that get written are determined by the file system being used, as modified by whatever kind of error handling the drive itself is using (e.g.
Reed-Solomon). All of the modern innovations in file systems and error handling are great for reliable and efficient data storage, but they are making my particular task quite daunting.
My question for Slashdot: is there a way to get down to the 'bare metal' and write these bits?
Any good utilities out there to do this?
Obviously a free and open source solution would be preferable, but I'm open to anything at this point.
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345960</id>
	<title>Re:That is gonna be hard</title>
	<author>ThreeGigs</author>
	<datestamp>1267633620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why not look at it as a reverse-engineering of what the drive controller will actually write?</p><p>There are utilities that allow you to write to a specific sector of the drive.</p><p>You can determine which ECC/encoding scheme the drive uses from manufacturer's specs.</p><p>If you want to write a bit in a particular position within a sector, reverse the Reed-Solomon algorithm to determine what data you need to send to the hard drive in order to get the R-S output that fulfills your need written to the disk.</p><p>However, it may not be possible to generate certain patterns because of the constraints in the encoding... you won't be able to completely fill a sector with all zeroes, for example.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why not look at it as a reverse-engineering of what the drive controller will actually write ? There are utilities that allow you to write to a specific sector of the drive.You can determine which ECC/encoding scheme the drive uses from manufacturer 's specs.If you want to write a bit in a particular position within a sector , reverse the Reed-Solomon algorithm to determine what data you need to send to the hard drive in order to get the R-S output that fulfills your need written to the disk.However , it may not be possible to generate certain patterns because of the constraints in the encoding... you wo n't be able to completely fill a sector with all zeroes , for example .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why not look at it as a reverse-engineering of what the drive controller will actually write?There are utilities that allow you to write to a specific sector of the drive.You can determine which ECC/encoding scheme the drive uses from manufacturer's specs.If you want to write a bit in a particular position within a sector, reverse the Reed-Solomon algorithm to determine what data you need to send to the hard drive in order to get the R-S output that fulfills your need written to the disk.However, it may not be possible to generate certain patterns because of the constraints in the encoding... you won't be able to completely fill a sector with all zeroes, for example.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342848</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346368</id>
	<title>Re:8-bit ST412/506 MFM + Linux circa 1994-5</title>
	<author>EriktheGreen</author>
	<datestamp>1267635420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
Yes, that was the command.  Thanks for bringing back those nightmares.
</p><p>
(I'll skip talking about different ROM addresses for diff. controllers since someone already did.  I had machines with multiple controllers in them, and god help you if you picked the wrong address).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , that was the command .
Thanks for bringing back those nightmares .
( I 'll skip talking about different ROM addresses for diff .
controllers since someone already did .
I had machines with multiple controllers in them , and god help you if you picked the wrong address ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
Yes, that was the command.
Thanks for bringing back those nightmares.
(I'll skip talking about different ROM addresses for diff.
controllers since someone already did.
I had machines with multiple controllers in them, and god help you if you picked the wrong address).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344784</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343536</id>
	<title>Headlines are superfluous</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267621560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't you hate it when people refuse to accept the premise of a technical question and write long monologues why the submitter is working with false assumptions even though they don't know what exactly they are dealing with? Yeah, me too. Makes them look arrogant, ignorant and smug. I'm going to go ahead though and reject the submitter's premise: there is no chance in hell that you're on the right track with whatever project you're attempting to do. But instead of merely dissing you for incompetence, I'll lay out a few scenarios (might as well, since you didn't supply any of your own).</p><p><b>If the actual physical bits matter to you...</b><br>you're either a hard drive manufacturer or a clueless person who should read up on how drives actually work. And we both know you're not working for a manufacturer. What you need to know is that there are several layers of indirection between the write call from within an OS down to the actual magnetic platter. These layers are there for a reason. At the very least, the onboard controller of the drive abstracts away the physical block allocation, and the drive won't work without the controller at all. Since the intricacies of the drive's physical address space are not accessible from the outside, there will never never never be a reason to try and fiddle with it directly. Because you can't.</p><p><b>If you are looking for disk I/O without a filesystem...</b><br>we're finally in saner territory. There are valid reasons to do this, e.g. speed and overhead considerations. Some database vendors actually have features like these. In this scenario, you're using the entire drive as one big addressable blob. A good starting point would be to have a look at the source code of a simple filesystem, such as ext2. Strip away all the actual file handling stuff and learn what you can from the disk I/O routines. On the other hand, if you didn't arrive at this conclusion yourself, that's not a very encouraging sign.</p><p><b>If you simply want a drive without error correction...</b><br>you're not developing software that will run on any modern system. If you accept this caveat, you can buy an ancient drive off ebay and use that. However, keep the first scenario firmly in mind: there is simply no reason to control the exact placement of every single byte if you don't plan on literally putting the drive under a microscope afterwards. Otherwise, this has no practical implications and, again, you are on the wrong track.</p><p><b>If you're a DRM/malware/virus developer...</b><br>I will sleep very comfortably tonight, because you had to ask about this on Slashdot, signaling once more that you're doing it wrong.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't you hate it when people refuse to accept the premise of a technical question and write long monologues why the submitter is working with false assumptions even though they do n't know what exactly they are dealing with ?
Yeah , me too .
Makes them look arrogant , ignorant and smug .
I 'm going to go ahead though and reject the submitter 's premise : there is no chance in hell that you 're on the right track with whatever project you 're attempting to do .
But instead of merely dissing you for incompetence , I 'll lay out a few scenarios ( might as well , since you did n't supply any of your own ) .If the actual physical bits matter to you...you 're either a hard drive manufacturer or a clueless person who should read up on how drives actually work .
And we both know you 're not working for a manufacturer .
What you need to know is that there are several layers of indirection between the write call from within an OS down to the actual magnetic platter .
These layers are there for a reason .
At the very least , the onboard controller of the drive abstracts away the physical block allocation , and the drive wo n't work without the controller at all .
Since the intricacies of the drive 's physical address space are not accessible from the outside , there will never never never be a reason to try and fiddle with it directly .
Because you ca n't.If you are looking for disk I/O without a filesystem...we 're finally in saner territory .
There are valid reasons to do this , e.g .
speed and overhead considerations .
Some database vendors actually have features like these .
In this scenario , you 're using the entire drive as one big addressable blob .
A good starting point would be to have a look at the source code of a simple filesystem , such as ext2 .
Strip away all the actual file handling stuff and learn what you can from the disk I/O routines .
On the other hand , if you did n't arrive at this conclusion yourself , that 's not a very encouraging sign.If you simply want a drive without error correction...you 're not developing software that will run on any modern system .
If you accept this caveat , you can buy an ancient drive off ebay and use that .
However , keep the first scenario firmly in mind : there is simply no reason to control the exact placement of every single byte if you do n't plan on literally putting the drive under a microscope afterwards .
Otherwise , this has no practical implications and , again , you are on the wrong track.If you 're a DRM/malware/virus developer...I will sleep very comfortably tonight , because you had to ask about this on Slashdot , signaling once more that you 're doing it wrong .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't you hate it when people refuse to accept the premise of a technical question and write long monologues why the submitter is working with false assumptions even though they don't know what exactly they are dealing with?
Yeah, me too.
Makes them look arrogant, ignorant and smug.
I'm going to go ahead though and reject the submitter's premise: there is no chance in hell that you're on the right track with whatever project you're attempting to do.
But instead of merely dissing you for incompetence, I'll lay out a few scenarios (might as well, since you didn't supply any of your own).If the actual physical bits matter to you...you're either a hard drive manufacturer or a clueless person who should read up on how drives actually work.
And we both know you're not working for a manufacturer.
What you need to know is that there are several layers of indirection between the write call from within an OS down to the actual magnetic platter.
These layers are there for a reason.
At the very least, the onboard controller of the drive abstracts away the physical block allocation, and the drive won't work without the controller at all.
Since the intricacies of the drive's physical address space are not accessible from the outside, there will never never never be a reason to try and fiddle with it directly.
Because you can't.If you are looking for disk I/O without a filesystem...we're finally in saner territory.
There are valid reasons to do this, e.g.
speed and overhead considerations.
Some database vendors actually have features like these.
In this scenario, you're using the entire drive as one big addressable blob.
A good starting point would be to have a look at the source code of a simple filesystem, such as ext2.
Strip away all the actual file handling stuff and learn what you can from the disk I/O routines.
On the other hand, if you didn't arrive at this conclusion yourself, that's not a very encouraging sign.If you simply want a drive without error correction...you're not developing software that will run on any modern system.
If you accept this caveat, you can buy an ancient drive off ebay and use that.
However, keep the first scenario firmly in mind: there is simply no reason to control the exact placement of every single byte if you don't plan on literally putting the drive under a microscope afterwards.
Otherwise, this has no practical implications and, again, you are on the wrong track.If you're a DRM/malware/virus developer...I will sleep very comfortably tonight, because you had to ask about this on Slashdot, signaling once more that you're doing it wrong.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343028</id>
	<title>Hmmm. The twisted, it is strong in this one.</title>
	<author>Noryungi</author>
	<datestamp>1267617180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Short answer: no, it's not possible to do that. It's not impossible, simply incredibly hard to do. Unless you happen to be very handy with a soldering iron and go dumpster-diving in the backyard of an HDD company (as many others have pointed out).</p><p>Longer answer: how about creating a 'virtual' hard drive? There are utilities out there that probably let you create (a) a virtual interface (let's say IDE) and (b) a virtual hard drive, attached to said interface. The next step, of course, is to hack these (VirtualBox?) in order to make them do whatever it is you want them to do. This being said, I strongly suspect it involves non-trivial virtual machine hacking and that it probably does not respond to whatever your needs are.</p><p>Other than this (very twisted) idea, sorry, bare metal writing has been disabled a long time ago, and for good reasons, too.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Short answer : no , it 's not possible to do that .
It 's not impossible , simply incredibly hard to do .
Unless you happen to be very handy with a soldering iron and go dumpster-diving in the backyard of an HDD company ( as many others have pointed out ) .Longer answer : how about creating a 'virtual ' hard drive ?
There are utilities out there that probably let you create ( a ) a virtual interface ( let 's say IDE ) and ( b ) a virtual hard drive , attached to said interface .
The next step , of course , is to hack these ( VirtualBox ?
) in order to make them do whatever it is you want them to do .
This being said , I strongly suspect it involves non-trivial virtual machine hacking and that it probably does not respond to whatever your needs are.Other than this ( very twisted ) idea , sorry , bare metal writing has been disabled a long time ago , and for good reasons , too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Short answer: no, it's not possible to do that.
It's not impossible, simply incredibly hard to do.
Unless you happen to be very handy with a soldering iron and go dumpster-diving in the backyard of an HDD company (as many others have pointed out).Longer answer: how about creating a 'virtual' hard drive?
There are utilities out there that probably let you create (a) a virtual interface (let's say IDE) and (b) a virtual hard drive, attached to said interface.
The next step, of course, is to hack these (VirtualBox?
) in order to make them do whatever it is you want them to do.
This being said, I strongly suspect it involves non-trivial virtual machine hacking and that it probably does not respond to whatever your needs are.Other than this (very twisted) idea, sorry, bare metal writing has been disabled a long time ago, and for good reasons, too.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345984</id>
	<title>Maybe you should defraggle it first</title>
	<author>Megane</author>
	<datestamp>1267633680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><a href="http://www.datadocktorn.nu/us\_frag1.php" title="datadocktorn.nu" rel="nofollow">This site</a> [datadocktorn.nu] seems to have the kind of information that the submitter needs.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This site [ datadocktorn.nu ] seems to have the kind of information that the submitter needs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This site [datadocktorn.nu] seems to have the kind of information that the submitter needs.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344084</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>vtcodger</author>
	<datestamp>1267624980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Does is have to be a hard drive?  The Apple IIe was a wretched computer with awful software, but it had a floppy controller that was possibly the cutest electronic device ever made.  It's been an awfully long time, but my recollection is that it was built from a handful -- six or eight -- of TTL chips and that not only COULD one control exactly what was written where in software, one HAD to control what was written where in software.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Does is have to be a hard drive ?
The Apple IIe was a wretched computer with awful software , but it had a floppy controller that was possibly the cutest electronic device ever made .
It 's been an awfully long time , but my recollection is that it was built from a handful -- six or eight -- of TTL chips and that not only COULD one control exactly what was written where in software , one HAD to control what was written where in software .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Does is have to be a hard drive?
The Apple IIe was a wretched computer with awful software, but it had a floppy controller that was possibly the cutest electronic device ever made.
It's been an awfully long time, but my recollection is that it was built from a handful -- six or eight -- of TTL chips and that not only COULD one control exactly what was written where in software, one HAD to control what was written where in software.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342826</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346928</id>
	<title>Short answer...</title>
	<author>bwcbwc</author>
	<datestamp>1267637820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It isn't worth trying.<br><br>It can be done, but pretty much requires a couple of EEs and possibly a semiconductor fab. At a minimum it requires documentation from the manufacturer about how they map the virtual cylinder/head/track/block IDs used by SATA/IDE into the physical locations on the media. Once you have this information, you could create your own disk device driver to force data into the specific locations. This still doesn't get you beyond the structure imposed by the low level format of the drive, though.<br><br>Alternatively, you could rip the controller hardware off the disk drive and reverse-engineer it to figure out the hardware location mappings on your own. You'd then have to build your own controller hardware (hence the fab) to gain the required control and impose your own low level format on the drive.<br><br>As a practical matter, your best bet is to write your own file system driver. That at least is plausible, even if it's reinventing the wheel.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It is n't worth trying.It can be done , but pretty much requires a couple of EEs and possibly a semiconductor fab .
At a minimum it requires documentation from the manufacturer about how they map the virtual cylinder/head/track/block IDs used by SATA/IDE into the physical locations on the media .
Once you have this information , you could create your own disk device driver to force data into the specific locations .
This still does n't get you beyond the structure imposed by the low level format of the drive , though.Alternatively , you could rip the controller hardware off the disk drive and reverse-engineer it to figure out the hardware location mappings on your own .
You 'd then have to build your own controller hardware ( hence the fab ) to gain the required control and impose your own low level format on the drive.As a practical matter , your best bet is to write your own file system driver .
That at least is plausible , even if it 's reinventing the wheel .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It isn't worth trying.It can be done, but pretty much requires a couple of EEs and possibly a semiconductor fab.
At a minimum it requires documentation from the manufacturer about how they map the virtual cylinder/head/track/block IDs used by SATA/IDE into the physical locations on the media.
Once you have this information, you could create your own disk device driver to force data into the specific locations.
This still doesn't get you beyond the structure imposed by the low level format of the drive, though.Alternatively, you could rip the controller hardware off the disk drive and reverse-engineer it to figure out the hardware location mappings on your own.
You'd then have to build your own controller hardware (hence the fab) to gain the required control and impose your own low level format on the drive.As a practical matter, your best bet is to write your own file system driver.
That at least is plausible, even if it's reinventing the wheel.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343172</id>
	<title>8-bit ST412/506 MFM + Linux circa 1994-5</title>
	<author>aussersterne</author>
	<datestamp>1267618320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Get yourself an old, totally unintelligent S412/506 MFM controller from out of an IBM PC or PC/XT. These were fairly dumb devices (g=c800:5 in debug, anyone?) for which you were meant to enter a "bad sectors list" printed on the front of the drive after performing the low-level format yourself. The earlier the drive, the closer to bare metal, so you might want to look for any of the 2, 5, or 10MB (yes, MB) full-height (2 x 5.25" drive bays stacked on top of one another) drives that were floating around then. You'll also want to get yourself a set of ribbon cables.</p><p>You should be able to use a drive/controller combination like this with any machine with ISA bus slots up through about the 386/486 era, and that would let you also go back and grab an early Linux distro (say, kernel 1.2.13 days, like Slackware 3 or so) that included drivers for such a controller that were actually in use and known to work at the time, giving you a base on which to build more code.</p><p>If 10MB is too small, you might just have luck going up to the largest of the MFM (80MB) or even RLL drives (160-200MB, just get an RLL controller instead) drives. I don't remember whether there were any ESDI drives back in the day that didn't remap their own sectors, but if there were, these controllers were 16-bit ISA and somewhat smarter (also with Linux drivers from the period available) and went up to 680MB or so.</p><p>But if you're looking for the best chance of success for your purposes and don't need tons of storage, my educated guess would be that the MFM controller out of an IBM 5150 PC plugged into a 5MB ST506 hard drive and connected to a SIMM-based 80386DX mainboard with 8 SIMM slots (for 8MB ram) might be the easiest combo to find and get working in practical terms that has a chance of doing what you want.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Get yourself an old , totally unintelligent S412/506 MFM controller from out of an IBM PC or PC/XT .
These were fairly dumb devices ( g = c800 : 5 in debug , anyone ?
) for which you were meant to enter a " bad sectors list " printed on the front of the drive after performing the low-level format yourself .
The earlier the drive , the closer to bare metal , so you might want to look for any of the 2 , 5 , or 10MB ( yes , MB ) full-height ( 2 x 5.25 " drive bays stacked on top of one another ) drives that were floating around then .
You 'll also want to get yourself a set of ribbon cables.You should be able to use a drive/controller combination like this with any machine with ISA bus slots up through about the 386/486 era , and that would let you also go back and grab an early Linux distro ( say , kernel 1.2.13 days , like Slackware 3 or so ) that included drivers for such a controller that were actually in use and known to work at the time , giving you a base on which to build more code.If 10MB is too small , you might just have luck going up to the largest of the MFM ( 80MB ) or even RLL drives ( 160-200MB , just get an RLL controller instead ) drives .
I do n't remember whether there were any ESDI drives back in the day that did n't remap their own sectors , but if there were , these controllers were 16-bit ISA and somewhat smarter ( also with Linux drivers from the period available ) and went up to 680MB or so.But if you 're looking for the best chance of success for your purposes and do n't need tons of storage , my educated guess would be that the MFM controller out of an IBM 5150 PC plugged into a 5MB ST506 hard drive and connected to a SIMM-based 80386DX mainboard with 8 SIMM slots ( for 8MB ram ) might be the easiest combo to find and get working in practical terms that has a chance of doing what you want .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Get yourself an old, totally unintelligent S412/506 MFM controller from out of an IBM PC or PC/XT.
These were fairly dumb devices (g=c800:5 in debug, anyone?
) for which you were meant to enter a "bad sectors list" printed on the front of the drive after performing the low-level format yourself.
The earlier the drive, the closer to bare metal, so you might want to look for any of the 2, 5, or 10MB (yes, MB) full-height (2 x 5.25" drive bays stacked on top of one another) drives that were floating around then.
You'll also want to get yourself a set of ribbon cables.You should be able to use a drive/controller combination like this with any machine with ISA bus slots up through about the 386/486 era, and that would let you also go back and grab an early Linux distro (say, kernel 1.2.13 days, like Slackware 3 or so) that included drivers for such a controller that were actually in use and known to work at the time, giving you a base on which to build more code.If 10MB is too small, you might just have luck going up to the largest of the MFM (80MB) or even RLL drives (160-200MB, just get an RLL controller instead) drives.
I don't remember whether there were any ESDI drives back in the day that didn't remap their own sectors, but if there were, these controllers were 16-bit ISA and somewhat smarter (also with Linux drivers from the period available) and went up to 680MB or so.But if you're looking for the best chance of success for your purposes and don't need tons of storage, my educated guess would be that the MFM controller out of an IBM 5150 PC plugged into a 5MB ST506 hard drive and connected to a SIMM-based 80386DX mainboard with 8 SIMM slots (for 8MB ram) might be the easiest combo to find and get working in practical terms that has a chance of doing what you want.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343784</id>
	<title>Inverse of the driver.</title>
	<author>cpscotti</author>
	<datestamp>1267623060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The only reasonable.... NOT.... way to do it in software would be to implement the inverse (you know, ^{-1}) of the disk driver in sw and then just trick the hardware: generating "proper" data such that, after the plethora of bit crunching done by the hard disk driver, you get what you wanted in the first place.<br>
<br>
In short, sounds like big trouble. You're going to need plenty of legal advice before this thing is over. As your attorney, I advise you to rent a very fast car with no top. And you'll need the cocaine. Tape recorder for special music. Acapulco shirts.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The only reasonable.... NOT.... way to do it in software would be to implement the inverse ( you know , ^ { -1 } ) of the disk driver in sw and then just trick the hardware : generating " proper " data such that , after the plethora of bit crunching done by the hard disk driver , you get what you wanted in the first place .
In short , sounds like big trouble .
You 're going to need plenty of legal advice before this thing is over .
As your attorney , I advise you to rent a very fast car with no top .
And you 'll need the cocaine .
Tape recorder for special music .
Acapulco shirts .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The only reasonable.... NOT.... way to do it in software would be to implement the inverse (you know, ^{-1}) of the disk driver in sw and then just trick the hardware: generating "proper" data such that, after the plethora of bit crunching done by the hard disk driver, you get what you wanted in the first place.
In short, sounds like big trouble.
You're going to need plenty of legal advice before this thing is over.
As your attorney, I advise you to rent a very fast car with no top.
And you'll need the cocaine.
Tape recorder for special music.
Acapulco shirts.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343454</id>
	<title>Well, how about mbr rootkits</title>
	<author>roland\_mai</author>
	<datestamp>1267620960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Hmm, I was thinking of how Mebroot installs itself in the MBR of the drive. Maybe looking at that code might help you.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)

However, I don't think one has to deal with firmware. I think writing a simple filesystem that writes or seeks sequentially only might be a better way of dealing with this issue. I think there are a couple such file systems for NAND flash that pretty much work this way. Then, you can put all your directory structures at one end and all files on the other end of the drives.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Hmm , I was thinking of how Mebroot installs itself in the MBR of the drive .
Maybe looking at that code might help you .
: ) However , I do n't think one has to deal with firmware .
I think writing a simple filesystem that writes or seeks sequentially only might be a better way of dealing with this issue .
I think there are a couple such file systems for NAND flash that pretty much work this way .
Then , you can put all your directory structures at one end and all files on the other end of the drives .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hmm, I was thinking of how Mebroot installs itself in the MBR of the drive.
Maybe looking at that code might help you.
:)

However, I don't think one has to deal with firmware.
I think writing a simple filesystem that writes or seeks sequentially only might be a better way of dealing with this issue.
I think there are a couple such file systems for NAND flash that pretty much work this way.
Then, you can put all your directory structures at one end and all files on the other end of the drives.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342826</id>
	<title>Sure</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267615380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just make your own controller chip for the drive.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just make your own controller chip for the drive .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just make your own controller chip for the drive.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31348418</id>
	<title>Re:Hm ...  - Is it outdated?</title>
	<author>mykepredko</author>
	<datestamp>1267644480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When I first saw the request, I wondered if it was for a copy protection scheme in which an entire (USB/FireWire) disk is loaded with the application and distributed with it.</p><p>Disks are amazingly cheap right now.</p><p>myke</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When I first saw the request , I wondered if it was for a copy protection scheme in which an entire ( USB/FireWire ) disk is loaded with the application and distributed with it.Disks are amazingly cheap right now.myke</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I first saw the request, I wondered if it was for a copy protection scheme in which an entire (USB/FireWire) disk is loaded with the application and distributed with it.Disks are amazingly cheap right now.myke</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342920</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346610</id>
	<title>Lightscribe for hard disks</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267636560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ah dude... you do realize theres like a metal cover over the hard disk platters and even if you were to succeed the 1's and 0's would optically look no different.</p><p>There is no reason to do what your asking.  If you just want to be able<br>to read and write from a disk as a gigantic linear array you can do so with the drive logic in place.</p><p>If you need performance get a faster spindle and use a write buffer.</p><p>Direct access is not going to buy you a damned thing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ah dude... you do realize theres like a metal cover over the hard disk platters and even if you were to succeed the 1 's and 0 's would optically look no different.There is no reason to do what your asking .
If you just want to be ableto read and write from a disk as a gigantic linear array you can do so with the drive logic in place.If you need performance get a faster spindle and use a write buffer.Direct access is not going to buy you a damned thing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ah dude... you do realize theres like a metal cover over the hard disk platters and even if you were to succeed the 1's and 0's would optically look no different.There is no reason to do what your asking.
If you just want to be ableto read and write from a disk as a gigantic linear array you can do so with the drive logic in place.If you need performance get a faster spindle and use a write buffer.Direct access is not going to buy you a damned thing.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31349806</id>
	<title>Weren't RLLs just compressed MFMs?</title>
	<author>Wabbit Wabbit</author>
	<datestamp>1267607940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>e.g. a 20MB MFM became a 30MB RLL?</p><p>If so, RLLs would be out, because the compression system would get in the way of direct bit placement on the platter.</p><p>I still have a couple of those old Seagates somewhere (including the full-length ISA RLL controller card), along with a (Western Digital?) 150MB ESDI drive.  Ah, the good old days.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>e.g .
a 20MB MFM became a 30MB RLL ? If so , RLLs would be out , because the compression system would get in the way of direct bit placement on the platter.I still have a couple of those old Seagates somewhere ( including the full-length ISA RLL controller card ) , along with a ( Western Digital ?
) 150MB ESDI drive .
Ah , the good old days .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>e.g.
a 20MB MFM became a 30MB RLL?If so, RLLs would be out, because the compression system would get in the way of direct bit placement on the platter.I still have a couple of those old Seagates somewhere (including the full-length ISA RLL controller card), along with a (Western Digital?
) 150MB ESDI drive.
Ah, the good old days.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346616</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343340</id>
	<title>Not on modern hardware</title>
	<author>AlecC</author>
	<datestamp>1267620120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't think what you want to do is possible, because I don't think modern drives actually write the 1s and 0s in the way that earlier ones did. They use Viterbi coding, which means that the exact change to the magnetic field to encode a 1 or 0 depends on what the preceding pattern of 1s and 0s is. They literally can only write sectors at a time.</p><p>Then again, what is meant by a sector has changed with time with different servo technologies. With the embedded servos in current drives, you would need to know a lot about the particular geometry of the particular drive you are using.</p><p>And to do any of this, you would have to bypass the controller completely - which, I am pretty certain, cannot be done without serious hardware modifications</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't think what you want to do is possible , because I do n't think modern drives actually write the 1s and 0s in the way that earlier ones did .
They use Viterbi coding , which means that the exact change to the magnetic field to encode a 1 or 0 depends on what the preceding pattern of 1s and 0s is .
They literally can only write sectors at a time.Then again , what is meant by a sector has changed with time with different servo technologies .
With the embedded servos in current drives , you would need to know a lot about the particular geometry of the particular drive you are using.And to do any of this , you would have to bypass the controller completely - which , I am pretty certain , can not be done without serious hardware modifications</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't think what you want to do is possible, because I don't think modern drives actually write the 1s and 0s in the way that earlier ones did.
They use Viterbi coding, which means that the exact change to the magnetic field to encode a 1 or 0 depends on what the preceding pattern of 1s and 0s is.
They literally can only write sectors at a time.Then again, what is meant by a sector has changed with time with different servo technologies.
With the embedded servos in current drives, you would need to know a lot about the particular geometry of the particular drive you are using.And to do any of this, you would have to bypass the controller completely - which, I am pretty certain, cannot be done without serious hardware modifications</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345180</id>
	<title>Not possible</title>
	<author>CAIMLAS</author>
	<datestamp>1267630500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's not a possibility: your primary limitation isn't the filesystem, it's the drive itself.</p><p>Modern drives are, for all intents and purposes, black boxes. They do much the same kind of thing internally as an SSD does, but present the data (and drive) to the OS in the more traditional fashions through geometry and the like. The 'beginning' of the drive may not be, as indicated by tests on read/right speed across the platters being reasonably consistent (and many drives being composed of multiple platters). LBA errors result in the internal remapping of 'secret' good sectors to those previously-good but now-damaged sectors. There's precious little way to know exactly what is where on a disk.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's not a possibility : your primary limitation is n't the filesystem , it 's the drive itself.Modern drives are , for all intents and purposes , black boxes .
They do much the same kind of thing internally as an SSD does , but present the data ( and drive ) to the OS in the more traditional fashions through geometry and the like .
The 'beginning ' of the drive may not be , as indicated by tests on read/right speed across the platters being reasonably consistent ( and many drives being composed of multiple platters ) .
LBA errors result in the internal remapping of 'secret ' good sectors to those previously-good but now-damaged sectors .
There 's precious little way to know exactly what is where on a disk .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's not a possibility: your primary limitation isn't the filesystem, it's the drive itself.Modern drives are, for all intents and purposes, black boxes.
They do much the same kind of thing internally as an SSD does, but present the data (and drive) to the OS in the more traditional fashions through geometry and the like.
The 'beginning' of the drive may not be, as indicated by tests on read/right speed across the platters being reasonably consistent (and many drives being composed of multiple platters).
LBA errors result in the internal remapping of 'secret' good sectors to those previously-good but now-damaged sectors.
There's precious little way to know exactly what is where on a disk.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344342</id>
	<title>Re:You're doing it wrong!</title>
	<author>vikingpower</author>
	<datestamp>1267626420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That is the best suggestion I've read sofar in this discussion. I can only hardly imagine he is trying to do something else.</p><p>Wait. Maybe he is an artist who tries to create fancy patterns of aligned magnetic fields on the platters in order to do something neat with it, later on ?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That is the best suggestion I 've read sofar in this discussion .
I can only hardly imagine he is trying to do something else.Wait .
Maybe he is an artist who tries to create fancy patterns of aligned magnetic fields on the platters in order to do something neat with it , later on ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That is the best suggestion I've read sofar in this discussion.
I can only hardly imagine he is trying to do something else.Wait.
Maybe he is an artist who tries to create fancy patterns of aligned magnetic fields on the platters in order to do something neat with it, later on ?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343304</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31350786</id>
	<title>Re:A real (but expensive) solution:</title>
	<author>evilviper</author>
	<datestamp>1267612560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Even though I "am new here" (see my<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. ID) I really wish I could find a slashdot like page frequented by real tech geeks<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/nerds.</p></div></blockquote><p>That's what<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. was, until we let the riff-raff in, somewhere around the 650,000 mark...  Now that we're past double that, the old guys like myself simply get drowned out.  And it seems the same phenomenon turned the moderation and meta moderation systems to crap as well, making it even worse.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Even though I " am new here " ( see my / .
ID ) I really wish I could find a slashdot like page frequented by real tech geeks /nerds.That 's what / .
was , until we let the riff-raff in , somewhere around the 650,000 mark... Now that we 're past double that , the old guys like myself simply get drowned out .
And it seems the same phenomenon turned the moderation and meta moderation systems to crap as well , making it even worse .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Even though I "am new here" (see my /.
ID) I really wish I could find a slashdot like page frequented by real tech geeks /nerds.That's what /.
was, until we let the riff-raff in, somewhere around the 650,000 mark...  Now that we're past double that, the old guys like myself simply get drowned out.
And it seems the same phenomenon turned the moderation and meta moderation systems to crap as well, making it even worse.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344062</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342988</id>
	<title>if you have time to waste...</title>
	<author>chentiangemalc</author>
	<datestamp>1267616760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>somehow I doubt whoever is running this project hasn't heard of something called ROI.

however if you have money and time to waste some options include:

1) find a better solution to meet your requirement - i.e. think "what is the end result I need to achieve" before thinking of the technical solution "how am I going to achieve this"
2) partnership with hard disk controller manufacturer
3) reverse engineer firwmare on a hard disk controller and remove any error correction code/etc (and take the data unreliability that comes with that) + create your code to actually write and read the disk. In addition this will lock your product to a particular model of a particular brand of hard disk.

anyway if you ever succeed let us know how it was done.</htmltext>
<tokenext>somehow I doubt whoever is running this project has n't heard of something called ROI .
however if you have money and time to waste some options include : 1 ) find a better solution to meet your requirement - i.e .
think " what is the end result I need to achieve " before thinking of the technical solution " how am I going to achieve this " 2 ) partnership with hard disk controller manufacturer 3 ) reverse engineer firwmare on a hard disk controller and remove any error correction code/etc ( and take the data unreliability that comes with that ) + create your code to actually write and read the disk .
In addition this will lock your product to a particular model of a particular brand of hard disk .
anyway if you ever succeed let us know how it was done .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>somehow I doubt whoever is running this project hasn't heard of something called ROI.
however if you have money and time to waste some options include:

1) find a better solution to meet your requirement - i.e.
think "what is the end result I need to achieve" before thinking of the technical solution "how am I going to achieve this"
2) partnership with hard disk controller manufacturer
3) reverse engineer firwmare on a hard disk controller and remove any error correction code/etc (and take the data unreliability that comes with that) + create your code to actually write and read the disk.
In addition this will lock your product to a particular model of a particular brand of hard disk.
anyway if you ever succeed let us know how it was done.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31354252</id>
	<title>Good question.</title>
	<author>mindstrm</author>
	<datestamp>1267635240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A decade or so ago, you could do this.. more or less. Your "low-level" format and all that - nowadays, there is logic on the drive unit itself you have to deal with.... there are more levels of abstraction... so even the lowest-level access I can think of off-hand from a normal modern OS won't actually come anywhere near controlling the drive itself.  You'd need to actually mess with drive firmware to do that.... I think.</p><p>And yeah - check out Steve Gibson... Spinrite did stuff like that - not sure how valid that is with current media though (the principles probably still apply, but even he may be dealing with some level of abstraction now)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A decade or so ago , you could do this.. more or less .
Your " low-level " format and all that - nowadays , there is logic on the drive unit itself you have to deal with.... there are more levels of abstraction... so even the lowest-level access I can think of off-hand from a normal modern OS wo n't actually come anywhere near controlling the drive itself .
You 'd need to actually mess with drive firmware to do that.... I think.And yeah - check out Steve Gibson... Spinrite did stuff like that - not sure how valid that is with current media though ( the principles probably still apply , but even he may be dealing with some level of abstraction now )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A decade or so ago, you could do this.. more or less.
Your "low-level" format and all that - nowadays, there is logic on the drive unit itself you have to deal with.... there are more levels of abstraction... so even the lowest-level access I can think of off-hand from a normal modern OS won't actually come anywhere near controlling the drive itself.
You'd need to actually mess with drive firmware to do that.... I think.And yeah - check out Steve Gibson... Spinrite did stuff like that - not sure how valid that is with current media though (the principles probably still apply, but even he may be dealing with some level of abstraction now)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31355164</id>
	<title>BIOS</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267645740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Back in the day one could use bios commands to write track sector platter 3d addresses - I know all of the geometry has changed, but the basic technique may be the same with a translation algorithm.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Back in the day one could use bios commands to write track sector platter 3d addresses - I know all of the geometry has changed , but the basic technique may be the same with a translation algorithm .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Back in the day one could use bios commands to write track sector platter 3d addresses - I know all of the geometry has changed, but the basic technique may be the same with a translation algorithm.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345786</id>
	<title>Anonymous Coward</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267632840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why not use a virtual drive? Write some software that emulates a hard drive in a flat file, and code it to allow you to write to specified locations on the "disk".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why not use a virtual drive ?
Write some software that emulates a hard drive in a flat file , and code it to allow you to write to specified locations on the " disk " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why not use a virtual drive?
Write some software that emulates a hard drive in a flat file, and code it to allow you to write to specified locations on the "disk".</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31347944</id>
	<title>Tell us *what* you are trying to do, not *how*</title>
	<author>Snowhare</author>
	<datestamp>1267642260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Almost every time someone asks a question where they obviously have made an implementation decision that depends on "doing it differently than everyone else on the planet" while providing no information about what they are trying to actually accomplish, the problem can usually be solved in a much simpler way. While it is <i>possible</i> you are doing something exotic like trying to turn a hard drive platter into a meta-material by patterning high density magnetic patterns on it and so you really do need to be able to control the bits at the hardware level, odds are low.</p><p>You provided no information about what you are trying to do. There are pretty good odds that if you provide information about <b>what</b> you are trying to do instead of trying to get people to come up with a way for you to do it 'the hard way' you, will get an answer that will work for you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Almost every time someone asks a question where they obviously have made an implementation decision that depends on " doing it differently than everyone else on the planet " while providing no information about what they are trying to actually accomplish , the problem can usually be solved in a much simpler way .
While it is possible you are doing something exotic like trying to turn a hard drive platter into a meta-material by patterning high density magnetic patterns on it and so you really do need to be able to control the bits at the hardware level , odds are low.You provided no information about what you are trying to do .
There are pretty good odds that if you provide information about what you are trying to do instead of trying to get people to come up with a way for you to do it 'the hard way ' you , will get an answer that will work for you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Almost every time someone asks a question where they obviously have made an implementation decision that depends on "doing it differently than everyone else on the planet" while providing no information about what they are trying to actually accomplish, the problem can usually be solved in a much simpler way.
While it is possible you are doing something exotic like trying to turn a hard drive platter into a meta-material by patterning high density magnetic patterns on it and so you really do need to be able to control the bits at the hardware level, odds are low.You provided no information about what you are trying to do.
There are pretty good odds that if you provide information about what you are trying to do instead of trying to get people to come up with a way for you to do it 'the hard way' you, will get an answer that will work for you.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344512</id>
	<title>Build your own controller</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267627320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If it doesn't have to be a hard disk, I might start with a floppy disk, even just for practice.  Really what you need to do is control a stepper motor from code in memory.  It doesn't even need to be on a separate disk controller.  Once you can control the motor, writing the bits is easy.  It sounds like a project we did for assembly language class back in the day.  First learn how to program on the 68000, then control a stepper motor, screen, and other peripherals, writing/reading bits here and there, prove it works.  After reading other comments, it sounds like most of the schools out there don't do projects like that anymore.  At the time, for fun, I even controlled it at home without the PIC and assembly language.  It is quite easy to control motors through the parallel port since there are so many data ports.  It just a matter of using C to get that done.  You can then control the steps of the motor as well as the head with keys on the keyboard.  Manually at first making individual movements to prove it works.  Then automated/programmed as much as you want later.    --you didn't say it had to be marketable or fast or work with current hardware...  Really get started with something small and work up from there.  We don't know what you are capable of with the limited information you provided us.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If it does n't have to be a hard disk , I might start with a floppy disk , even just for practice .
Really what you need to do is control a stepper motor from code in memory .
It does n't even need to be on a separate disk controller .
Once you can control the motor , writing the bits is easy .
It sounds like a project we did for assembly language class back in the day .
First learn how to program on the 68000 , then control a stepper motor , screen , and other peripherals , writing/reading bits here and there , prove it works .
After reading other comments , it sounds like most of the schools out there do n't do projects like that anymore .
At the time , for fun , I even controlled it at home without the PIC and assembly language .
It is quite easy to control motors through the parallel port since there are so many data ports .
It just a matter of using C to get that done .
You can then control the steps of the motor as well as the head with keys on the keyboard .
Manually at first making individual movements to prove it works .
Then automated/programmed as much as you want later .
--you did n't say it had to be marketable or fast or work with current hardware... Really get started with something small and work up from there .
We do n't know what you are capable of with the limited information you provided us .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If it doesn't have to be a hard disk, I might start with a floppy disk, even just for practice.
Really what you need to do is control a stepper motor from code in memory.
It doesn't even need to be on a separate disk controller.
Once you can control the motor, writing the bits is easy.
It sounds like a project we did for assembly language class back in the day.
First learn how to program on the 68000, then control a stepper motor, screen, and other peripherals, writing/reading bits here and there, prove it works.
After reading other comments, it sounds like most of the schools out there don't do projects like that anymore.
At the time, for fun, I even controlled it at home without the PIC and assembly language.
It is quite easy to control motors through the parallel port since there are so many data ports.
It just a matter of using C to get that done.
You can then control the steps of the motor as well as the head with keys on the keyboard.
Manually at first making individual movements to prove it works.
Then automated/programmed as much as you want later.
--you didn't say it had to be marketable or fast or work with current hardware...  Really get started with something small and work up from there.
We don't know what you are capable of with the limited information you provided us.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31387358</id>
	<title>Re:Headlines are superfluous</title>
	<author>Foole</author>
	<datestamp>1267993740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>#866112 +(1393)-
<p>&lt;glyph&gt; For example - if you came in here asking "how do I use a jackhammer" we might ask "why do you need to use a jackhammer"
</p><p>&lt;glyph&gt; If the answer to the latter question is "to knock my grandmother's head off to let out the evil spirits that gave her cancer", then maybe the problem is actually unrelated to jackhammers</p></htmltext>
<tokenext># 866112 + ( 1393 ) - For example - if you came in here asking " how do I use a jackhammer " we might ask " why do you need to use a jackhammer " If the answer to the latter question is " to knock my grandmother 's head off to let out the evil spirits that gave her cancer " , then maybe the problem is actually unrelated to jackhammers</tokentext>
<sentencetext>#866112 +(1393)-
 For example - if you came in here asking "how do I use a jackhammer" we might ask "why do you need to use a jackhammer"
 If the answer to the latter question is "to knock my grandmother's head off to let out the evil spirits that gave her cancer", then maybe the problem is actually unrelated to jackhammers</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345402</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344270</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>CharlieG</author>
	<datestamp>1267626060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That was my first idea too "Find an old MFM/RLL drive, and have at it" - then I realized, "You know, I'll bet that more than 1/2 of the readers of<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. don't even remember them"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That was my first idea too " Find an old MFM/RLL drive , and have at it " - then I realized , " You know , I 'll bet that more than 1/2 of the readers of / .
do n't even remember them "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That was my first idea too "Find an old MFM/RLL drive, and have at it" - then I realized, "You know, I'll bet that more than 1/2 of the readers of /.
don't even remember them"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343032</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31358968</id>
	<title>Re:Headlines are superfluous</title>
	<author>BitZtream</author>
	<datestamp>1267723560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, and in what way do the original question sound like he was trying to recover data manually rather than do something stupid?</p><p>He's talking about writing to the drive, not just reading specific physical locations.  Data recovery is not his concern.</p><p>The problem is, theres plenty of people here that can come up with every reason you'd want to write directly to a specific location, and those people also realize there is almost 0 reason anyone wants to do that except a very specific set of people which<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... wouldn't be asking the question.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , and in what way do the original question sound like he was trying to recover data manually rather than do something stupid ? He 's talking about writing to the drive , not just reading specific physical locations .
Data recovery is not his concern.The problem is , theres plenty of people here that can come up with every reason you 'd want to write directly to a specific location , and those people also realize there is almost 0 reason anyone wants to do that except a very specific set of people which ... would n't be asking the question .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, and in what way do the original question sound like he was trying to recover data manually rather than do something stupid?He's talking about writing to the drive, not just reading specific physical locations.
Data recovery is not his concern.The problem is, theres plenty of people here that can come up with every reason you'd want to write directly to a specific location, and those people also realize there is almost 0 reason anyone wants to do that except a very specific set of people which ... wouldn't be asking the question.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345776</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31347862</id>
	<title>SCSI Drive?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267641900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you can use a SCSI hard drive (including SAS, FC, and parallel transports), most of them support the 'write long' command.  This allows direct access to the bits on the disk, though the implementation is vendor specific and can vary.  I've used this command to write intentional 'bad blocks' on a drive so I can test error recovery.  Here is a tiny blurb on this command:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCSI\_Write\_Commands#Write\_Long<br>Much more detail in the SCSI block command set:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; http://www.t10.org/drafts.htm#SBC\_Family<br>In the past I've used the 'scu' utility to perform these operations, as well as vendor utilities of various kinds (I forget names).<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; http://home.comcast.net/~SCSIguy/SCSI\_FAQ/RMiller\_Tools/scu.html</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you can use a SCSI hard drive ( including SAS , FC , and parallel transports ) , most of them support the 'write long ' command .
This allows direct access to the bits on the disk , though the implementation is vendor specific and can vary .
I 've used this command to write intentional 'bad blocks ' on a drive so I can test error recovery .
Here is a tiny blurb on this command :         http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCSI \ _Write \ _Commands # Write \ _LongMuch more detail in the SCSI block command set :         http : //www.t10.org/drafts.htm # SBC \ _FamilyIn the past I 've used the 'scu ' utility to perform these operations , as well as vendor utilities of various kinds ( I forget names ) .
      http : //home.comcast.net/ ~ SCSIguy/SCSI \ _FAQ/RMiller \ _Tools/scu.html</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you can use a SCSI hard drive (including SAS, FC, and parallel transports), most of them support the 'write long' command.
This allows direct access to the bits on the disk, though the implementation is vendor specific and can vary.
I've used this command to write intentional 'bad blocks' on a drive so I can test error recovery.
Here is a tiny blurb on this command:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCSI\_Write\_Commands#Write\_LongMuch more detail in the SCSI block command set:
        http://www.t10.org/drafts.htm#SBC\_FamilyIn the past I've used the 'scu' utility to perform these operations, as well as vendor utilities of various kinds (I forget names).
      http://home.comcast.net/~SCSIguy/SCSI\_FAQ/RMiller\_Tools/scu.html</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31351560</id>
	<title>Why not using UNIX system calls</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267616220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In the Linux Kernel, and probably every UNIX, it is possible to write directly to the raw device using system calls.</p><p>If you need to write data that doesn't fit in the regular 512 bits block, you will need to read the full block, modify it and write back the full block. If you need to write bits one by one, it will be terribly slow (maybe 100k/s), but it will works and be very cheap. And the amount of needed code is very small and perhaps there is already some library for that.</p><p>Sure, technically there will be ECC code transparently written to the physical disk, but personnaly I consider this a great feature. If you really need to to access or modify even the ECC bits, or get ride of them (which I seriously doubt), then there is special hardware available that are mostly used for data recovery or forensic analysis.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In the Linux Kernel , and probably every UNIX , it is possible to write directly to the raw device using system calls.If you need to write data that does n't fit in the regular 512 bits block , you will need to read the full block , modify it and write back the full block .
If you need to write bits one by one , it will be terribly slow ( maybe 100k/s ) , but it will works and be very cheap .
And the amount of needed code is very small and perhaps there is already some library for that.Sure , technically there will be ECC code transparently written to the physical disk , but personnaly I consider this a great feature .
If you really need to to access or modify even the ECC bits , or get ride of them ( which I seriously doubt ) , then there is special hardware available that are mostly used for data recovery or forensic analysis .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In the Linux Kernel, and probably every UNIX, it is possible to write directly to the raw device using system calls.If you need to write data that doesn't fit in the regular 512 bits block, you will need to read the full block, modify it and write back the full block.
If you need to write bits one by one, it will be terribly slow (maybe 100k/s), but it will works and be very cheap.
And the amount of needed code is very small and perhaps there is already some library for that.Sure, technically there will be ECC code transparently written to the physical disk, but personnaly I consider this a great feature.
If you really need to to access or modify even the ECC bits, or get ride of them (which I seriously doubt), then there is special hardware available that are mostly used for data recovery or forensic analysis.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343838</id>
	<title>Ignorance is Bliss</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267623480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There's a reason for things like error correction that you're trying to omit. The primary benefit of omitting them is that you will never be able to retrieve your data.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's a reason for things like error correction that you 're trying to omit .
The primary benefit of omitting them is that you will never be able to retrieve your data .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's a reason for things like error correction that you're trying to omit.
The primary benefit of omitting them is that you will never be able to retrieve your data.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345966</id>
	<title>Not in 2010, you can't</title>
	<author>billcopc</author>
	<datestamp>1267633680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Back in the good old days, we had MFM drives.  These things were huge stupid spindles that required a separate controller board.  If you had one of those, you could design your own minimalist controller chip (as an FPGA or fast PIC), and access the MFM platters directly.  That was, oh, 15-20 years ago.  Today the controller is built right into the drive, that's that little board on the underside.  Today's controllers are quite a bit more complex than the old ones, with much tighter tolerances to support modern bit densities.  The short version is that if you're on Ask Slashdot, you do not have anywhere near the level of skill and topical expertise to design your own controller.  Either find yourself a hard drive engineer, or hide your porn in the Recycle Bin like everyone else.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Back in the good old days , we had MFM drives .
These things were huge stupid spindles that required a separate controller board .
If you had one of those , you could design your own minimalist controller chip ( as an FPGA or fast PIC ) , and access the MFM platters directly .
That was , oh , 15-20 years ago .
Today the controller is built right into the drive , that 's that little board on the underside .
Today 's controllers are quite a bit more complex than the old ones , with much tighter tolerances to support modern bit densities .
The short version is that if you 're on Ask Slashdot , you do not have anywhere near the level of skill and topical expertise to design your own controller .
Either find yourself a hard drive engineer , or hide your porn in the Recycle Bin like everyone else .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Back in the good old days, we had MFM drives.
These things were huge stupid spindles that required a separate controller board.
If you had one of those, you could design your own minimalist controller chip (as an FPGA or fast PIC), and access the MFM platters directly.
That was, oh, 15-20 years ago.
Today the controller is built right into the drive, that's that little board on the underside.
Today's controllers are quite a bit more complex than the old ones, with much tighter tolerances to support modern bit densities.
The short version is that if you're on Ask Slashdot, you do not have anywhere near the level of skill and topical expertise to design your own controller.
Either find yourself a hard drive engineer, or hide your porn in the Recycle Bin like everyone else.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345874</id>
	<title>Not a Stupid Question - And a suggestion</title>
	<author>Jeremy Lee</author>
	<datestamp>1267633260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm surprised by the number of people who seem hostile to this question, mostly because they can't imagine any circumstances where they would want to do this. I can think of several. In fact, I was thinking about something similar with optical disks just earlier today. (I'm curious whether small holograms could be created by writing an interference pattern directly onto a CD or DVD, but I would need exact control over how the tracks lined up to achieve this.)</p><p>Here's some concepts just off the top of my head:<br>* He's come up with a new disk encoding scheme, and wants to try it out.<br>* He's doing research into how long disks retain data, and is questioning basic assumptions like whether surface bits permanently magnetize the platter underneath, affecting later bits in the same location. Or how far the domains spread.<br>* He's working with self-assembling molecules and needs to give them a patterned magnetic surface to build on.<br>* He wants to 'print' a 2-D picture onto a small portion of the hard drive, and bounce a laser off it. (The magnetic alignment of the surface domains would polarize the photons slightly.)<br>* He's making a high-resolution rotational position encoder, so by reading across 32 tracks knows the rotation of the platter down to a few nanoarcminutes.<br>* He wants to totally destroy the contents of a disk. (I assume this is what most of the hostile people think is the intention, presumably as the payload of some virus)</p><p>Those are just the ones off the top of my head.</p><p>However, the ranting people do have a point that without knowing WHY you want to do this, we can't really suggest the best solutions. A lot of people have recommended going back to super-old MFM hard drives that allowed this, but we don't know if you require the density of modern hard drives.</p><p>To do this with a modern drive, you're basically going to have to rebuild the controller. Either totally remove the controller board (leaving handy raw connections to the stepper motors and drive heads) or cut the connections between the microcontroller and the low-level electrical functions of the drive, and substitute your own. Here's where knowing your accuracy requirements could have help, because if you want relatively large bits, you can get away with fairly low-frequency components. A 20Mhz microcontroller can, with say an external high-speed shift register, push out an 80mbit/s serial stream, which equates to &gt;120,000 bits around the track of a 6,000RPM drive. Not quite the same density as the manufacturer, but better than the old MFM drives.</p><p>Your next problem is going to be this: It's really, really hard to tell where the head is on a platter. I've no idea how modern drives do it, but it used to be done with 'marker' bits either in the track, or on a nearby 'index' track, plus a little timing. Preserving these location marker bits is actually the most important job of the drive controller.</p><p>It's not impossible, merely very difficult. I could probably make one with only several weeks of hard work.</p><p>Alternately, you could try getting into the firmware and re-writing it to your specifications, but that might take longer. You would have to reverse-engineer a lot of stuff that is specifically hardened against this, but at least the hardware would be stable.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm surprised by the number of people who seem hostile to this question , mostly because they ca n't imagine any circumstances where they would want to do this .
I can think of several .
In fact , I was thinking about something similar with optical disks just earlier today .
( I 'm curious whether small holograms could be created by writing an interference pattern directly onto a CD or DVD , but I would need exact control over how the tracks lined up to achieve this .
) Here 's some concepts just off the top of my head : * He 's come up with a new disk encoding scheme , and wants to try it out .
* He 's doing research into how long disks retain data , and is questioning basic assumptions like whether surface bits permanently magnetize the platter underneath , affecting later bits in the same location .
Or how far the domains spread .
* He 's working with self-assembling molecules and needs to give them a patterned magnetic surface to build on .
* He wants to 'print ' a 2-D picture onto a small portion of the hard drive , and bounce a laser off it .
( The magnetic alignment of the surface domains would polarize the photons slightly .
) * He 's making a high-resolution rotational position encoder , so by reading across 32 tracks knows the rotation of the platter down to a few nanoarcminutes .
* He wants to totally destroy the contents of a disk .
( I assume this is what most of the hostile people think is the intention , presumably as the payload of some virus ) Those are just the ones off the top of my head.However , the ranting people do have a point that without knowing WHY you want to do this , we ca n't really suggest the best solutions .
A lot of people have recommended going back to super-old MFM hard drives that allowed this , but we do n't know if you require the density of modern hard drives.To do this with a modern drive , you 're basically going to have to rebuild the controller .
Either totally remove the controller board ( leaving handy raw connections to the stepper motors and drive heads ) or cut the connections between the microcontroller and the low-level electrical functions of the drive , and substitute your own .
Here 's where knowing your accuracy requirements could have help , because if you want relatively large bits , you can get away with fairly low-frequency components .
A 20Mhz microcontroller can , with say an external high-speed shift register , push out an 80mbit/s serial stream , which equates to &gt; 120,000 bits around the track of a 6,000RPM drive .
Not quite the same density as the manufacturer , but better than the old MFM drives.Your next problem is going to be this : It 's really , really hard to tell where the head is on a platter .
I 've no idea how modern drives do it , but it used to be done with 'marker ' bits either in the track , or on a nearby 'index ' track , plus a little timing .
Preserving these location marker bits is actually the most important job of the drive controller.It 's not impossible , merely very difficult .
I could probably make one with only several weeks of hard work.Alternately , you could try getting into the firmware and re-writing it to your specifications , but that might take longer .
You would have to reverse-engineer a lot of stuff that is specifically hardened against this , but at least the hardware would be stable .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm surprised by the number of people who seem hostile to this question, mostly because they can't imagine any circumstances where they would want to do this.
I can think of several.
In fact, I was thinking about something similar with optical disks just earlier today.
(I'm curious whether small holograms could be created by writing an interference pattern directly onto a CD or DVD, but I would need exact control over how the tracks lined up to achieve this.
)Here's some concepts just off the top of my head:* He's come up with a new disk encoding scheme, and wants to try it out.
* He's doing research into how long disks retain data, and is questioning basic assumptions like whether surface bits permanently magnetize the platter underneath, affecting later bits in the same location.
Or how far the domains spread.
* He's working with self-assembling molecules and needs to give them a patterned magnetic surface to build on.
* He wants to 'print' a 2-D picture onto a small portion of the hard drive, and bounce a laser off it.
(The magnetic alignment of the surface domains would polarize the photons slightly.
)* He's making a high-resolution rotational position encoder, so by reading across 32 tracks knows the rotation of the platter down to a few nanoarcminutes.
* He wants to totally destroy the contents of a disk.
(I assume this is what most of the hostile people think is the intention, presumably as the payload of some virus)Those are just the ones off the top of my head.However, the ranting people do have a point that without knowing WHY you want to do this, we can't really suggest the best solutions.
A lot of people have recommended going back to super-old MFM hard drives that allowed this, but we don't know if you require the density of modern hard drives.To do this with a modern drive, you're basically going to have to rebuild the controller.
Either totally remove the controller board (leaving handy raw connections to the stepper motors and drive heads) or cut the connections between the microcontroller and the low-level electrical functions of the drive, and substitute your own.
Here's where knowing your accuracy requirements could have help, because if you want relatively large bits, you can get away with fairly low-frequency components.
A 20Mhz microcontroller can, with say an external high-speed shift register, push out an 80mbit/s serial stream, which equates to &gt;120,000 bits around the track of a 6,000RPM drive.
Not quite the same density as the manufacturer, but better than the old MFM drives.Your next problem is going to be this: It's really, really hard to tell where the head is on a platter.
I've no idea how modern drives do it, but it used to be done with 'marker' bits either in the track, or on a nearby 'index' track, plus a little timing.
Preserving these location marker bits is actually the most important job of the drive controller.It's not impossible, merely very difficult.
I could probably make one with only several weeks of hard work.Alternately, you could try getting into the firmware and re-writing it to your specifications, but that might take longer.
You would have to reverse-engineer a lot of stuff that is specifically hardened against this, but at least the hardware would be stable.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31352984</id>
	<title>Re:8-bit ST412/506 MFM + Linux circa 1994-5</title>
	<author>Rene S. Hollan</author>
	<datestamp>1267624260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>FWIW, The biggest MFM drive I ever had in a PC had 150MB capacity and used an ST-506 controller on an EISA bus.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>FWIW , The biggest MFM drive I ever had in a PC had 150MB capacity and used an ST-506 controller on an EISA bus .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>FWIW, The biggest MFM drive I ever had in a PC had 150MB capacity and used an ST-506 controller on an EISA bus.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343172</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345860</id>
	<title>Re:Headlines are superfluous</title>
	<author>your\_mother\_sews\_soc</author>
	<datestamp>1267633200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think the original question is valid and shouldn't be dismissed, as well.  During the 1980's in the peak of mainframe development, a few of us were writing channel programs, small but really cool pieces of "machine code" that would be executed on a disk controller.  We did this to add a big performance gain to our software.  Remember, back then memory was expensive and a resource shared by possibly hundred of concurrent jobs (programs).<br> <br>
With a channel program one could directly control the reading and writing of consecutive blocks, cylinders, and tracks.  If you could get cylinder allocations to meet your needs, then all the read/write heads are aligned and you could write to (read from) as many platters the disk had simultaneously. If a disk had 11 platters, you would chain up the commands to point to the data and do a DMA 'blast" of data out to 11 tracks in parallel.  Then, you would step out to the next consecutive track and blast another string of data, and so on.<br> <br>
The neat thing of channel programming is that these systems would also allow you to query the drives capabilities and you could write them dynamically.  So no matter what, your software could adapt to the connected hardware.  And, since the disk controllers were small computers themselves, once the channel program was set up (and they were just sets of descriptors - commands and addresses, not unlike any other machine code) the work was done asynchronously with your application code.  Or you could wait if you couldn't figure out how to do <i>that</i>.<br> <br>
I think the inability to control disk I/O programatically is a serious deficiency in modern PC's, whether they are desktop or rack-mounted.  Remember, the operating systems of today are not meant for people who read IBM's Principle of Operations and Supervisor Services and Macros.  They are designed for the least common denominator.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think the original question is valid and should n't be dismissed , as well .
During the 1980 's in the peak of mainframe development , a few of us were writing channel programs , small but really cool pieces of " machine code " that would be executed on a disk controller .
We did this to add a big performance gain to our software .
Remember , back then memory was expensive and a resource shared by possibly hundred of concurrent jobs ( programs ) .
With a channel program one could directly control the reading and writing of consecutive blocks , cylinders , and tracks .
If you could get cylinder allocations to meet your needs , then all the read/write heads are aligned and you could write to ( read from ) as many platters the disk had simultaneously .
If a disk had 11 platters , you would chain up the commands to point to the data and do a DMA 'blast " of data out to 11 tracks in parallel .
Then , you would step out to the next consecutive track and blast another string of data , and so on .
The neat thing of channel programming is that these systems would also allow you to query the drives capabilities and you could write them dynamically .
So no matter what , your software could adapt to the connected hardware .
And , since the disk controllers were small computers themselves , once the channel program was set up ( and they were just sets of descriptors - commands and addresses , not unlike any other machine code ) the work was done asynchronously with your application code .
Or you could wait if you could n't figure out how to do that .
I think the inability to control disk I/O programatically is a serious deficiency in modern PC 's , whether they are desktop or rack-mounted .
Remember , the operating systems of today are not meant for people who read IBM 's Principle of Operations and Supervisor Services and Macros .
They are designed for the least common denominator .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think the original question is valid and shouldn't be dismissed, as well.
During the 1980's in the peak of mainframe development, a few of us were writing channel programs, small but really cool pieces of "machine code" that would be executed on a disk controller.
We did this to add a big performance gain to our software.
Remember, back then memory was expensive and a resource shared by possibly hundred of concurrent jobs (programs).
With a channel program one could directly control the reading and writing of consecutive blocks, cylinders, and tracks.
If you could get cylinder allocations to meet your needs, then all the read/write heads are aligned and you could write to (read from) as many platters the disk had simultaneously.
If a disk had 11 platters, you would chain up the commands to point to the data and do a DMA 'blast" of data out to 11 tracks in parallel.
Then, you would step out to the next consecutive track and blast another string of data, and so on.
The neat thing of channel programming is that these systems would also allow you to query the drives capabilities and you could write them dynamically.
So no matter what, your software could adapt to the connected hardware.
And, since the disk controllers were small computers themselves, once the channel program was set up (and they were just sets of descriptors - commands and addresses, not unlike any other machine code) the work was done asynchronously with your application code.
Or you could wait if you couldn't figure out how to do that.
I think the inability to control disk I/O programatically is a serious deficiency in modern PC's, whether they are desktop or rack-mounted.
Remember, the operating systems of today are not meant for people who read IBM's Principle of Operations and Supervisor Services and Macros.
They are designed for the least common denominator.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343536</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343928</id>
	<title>Re:Tell us your project?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267623960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What is this XYZ project you speak of - I'm interested in complicated, ridiculous, vague, nonsensical stuff - where do I sign up ? - is it open source?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What is this XYZ project you speak of - I 'm interested in complicated , ridiculous , vague , nonsensical stuff - where do I sign up ?
- is it open source ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What is this XYZ project you speak of - I'm interested in complicated, ridiculous, vague, nonsensical stuff - where do I sign up ?
- is it open source?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342940</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346026</id>
	<title>it's there</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267633920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Drives today have the ability to do that, problem is it's buried in code used by engineering and the manufacturing test process that isn't accessible to customers. I do it all the time. You wont be able to read it back, encoding and any error correction functions are gone, but the capability is there. Find an independent consultant in the drive industry for help.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Drives today have the ability to do that , problem is it 's buried in code used by engineering and the manufacturing test process that is n't accessible to customers .
I do it all the time .
You wont be able to read it back , encoding and any error correction functions are gone , but the capability is there .
Find an independent consultant in the drive industry for help .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Drives today have the ability to do that, problem is it's buried in code used by engineering and the manufacturing test process that isn't accessible to customers.
I do it all the time.
You wont be able to read it back, encoding and any error correction functions are gone, but the capability is there.
Find an independent consultant in the drive industry for help.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342900</id>
	<title>Data Recovery</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267615980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Presumably there is a way of at least reading specific sectors. Surely data recovery people use something like this to get raw data from a damaged drive bypassing anything the drive might do to try and correct errors. Maybe a data recovery specialist could help you.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Presumably there is a way of at least reading specific sectors .
Surely data recovery people use something like this to get raw data from a damaged drive bypassing anything the drive might do to try and correct errors .
Maybe a data recovery specialist could help you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Presumably there is a way of at least reading specific sectors.
Surely data recovery people use something like this to get raw data from a damaged drive bypassing anything the drive might do to try and correct errors.
Maybe a data recovery specialist could help you.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31348510</id>
	<title>DD?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267644840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Can't you just specify the offset for what you want to write in DD?  Don't need a filesystem, don't need a partition, etc.  Am I missing something, here?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ca n't you just specify the offset for what you want to write in DD ?
Do n't need a filesystem , do n't need a partition , etc .
Am I missing something , here ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Can't you just specify the offset for what you want to write in DD?
Don't need a filesystem, don't need a partition, etc.
Am I missing something, here?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31354382</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>Mal-2</author>
	<datestamp>1267636680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Not RLL, FM/MFM only. RLL converts a string of bits into a longer but physically easier string of bits so it can pack in more effective density. Unfortunately, you've already lost control of the bits on the drive at this point.</p><p>Mal-2</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Not RLL , FM/MFM only .
RLL converts a string of bits into a longer but physically easier string of bits so it can pack in more effective density .
Unfortunately , you 've already lost control of the bits on the drive at this point.Mal-2</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not RLL, FM/MFM only.
RLL converts a string of bits into a longer but physically easier string of bits so it can pack in more effective density.
Unfortunately, you've already lost control of the bits on the drive at this point.Mal-2</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344270</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343766</id>
	<title>Re:Your own Disk controller chipset?</title>
	<author>jonadab</author>
	<datestamp>1267623000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>&gt; you should use an old disk. I mean very old, maybe going back<br>&gt; to those 300-400MB disks we had on 486 computers or even older.<br><br>Much older.  I'm pretty sure you have to go pre-IDE.</htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; you should use an old disk .
I mean very old , maybe going back &gt; to those 300-400MB disks we had on 486 computers or even older.Much older .
I 'm pretty sure you have to go pre-IDE .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; you should use an old disk.
I mean very old, maybe going back&gt; to those 300-400MB disks we had on 486 computers or even older.Much older.
I'm pretty sure you have to go pre-IDE.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342876</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346584</id>
	<title>Re:Tell us your project?</title>
	<author>Sneftel</author>
	<datestamp>1267636440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>The solution he requested is stupid, because I don't have the solution he requested.</p></div></blockquote><p>Fixed that for you.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The solution he requested is stupid , because I do n't have the solution he requested.Fixed that for you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The solution he requested is stupid, because I don't have the solution he requested.Fixed that for you.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344026</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345482</id>
	<title>Emulation</title>
	<author>hrieke</author>
	<datestamp>1267631820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Would it be possible to create an emulated disk layer which would handle the request?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Would it be possible to create an emulated disk layer which would handle the request ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Would it be possible to create an emulated disk layer which would handle the request?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31347424</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>Hyppy</author>
	<datestamp>1267639620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Does my 1.44MB floppy count?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Does my 1.44MB floppy count ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Does my 1.44MB floppy count?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344270</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345470</id>
	<title>Confusion</title>
	<author>doogledog</author>
	<datestamp>1267631700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When someone says they want complete control over the locations of bits on a drive that could be taken to mean the actual magnetic domains (which aren't simply digital values anyway) or it could just mean the logical digital values that are seen by the OS and filesystem drivers. I wonder if by using phrases like 'magnetic hard drive platter' and mentioning Reed-Solomon encoding, kidcharles has made people think of the lowest level meaning of 'location of bits', whereas in actual fact he just wants something like<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/dev/sda.<br>
'A free and open source solution' is mentioned.. but theres no mention of what form this solution might take. In the case of a custom HDD controller (which people have suggested as a solution) this would mean something like a VHDL or Verilog implementation (but it would be highly vendor and model specific, plus there'd probably be IP issues). But when people say 'a free and open source solution' they tend to mean software running on a common desktop OS. Oh and I guess there's the question about 'any good utilities' which suggests that kidcharles isn't after an entirely programmatic approach.</p><p>
So, if I'm correct, any decent disk editor will supply the required level of control. I can't be bothered to look any up (Google will help out here) but I know there are plenty (open source, free or proprietry) for Linux, DOS and Windows. Hell, you could possibly do it all with shell scripting under Linux if you so desired<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)
</p><p>
Alternatively, maybe kidcharles wants to make spirograph like artwork for creatures that can see in the magnetic spectrum.
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When someone says they want complete control over the locations of bits on a drive that could be taken to mean the actual magnetic domains ( which are n't simply digital values anyway ) or it could just mean the logical digital values that are seen by the OS and filesystem drivers .
I wonder if by using phrases like 'magnetic hard drive platter ' and mentioning Reed-Solomon encoding , kidcharles has made people think of the lowest level meaning of 'location of bits ' , whereas in actual fact he just wants something like /dev/sda .
'A free and open source solution ' is mentioned.. but theres no mention of what form this solution might take .
In the case of a custom HDD controller ( which people have suggested as a solution ) this would mean something like a VHDL or Verilog implementation ( but it would be highly vendor and model specific , plus there 'd probably be IP issues ) .
But when people say 'a free and open source solution ' they tend to mean software running on a common desktop OS .
Oh and I guess there 's the question about 'any good utilities ' which suggests that kidcharles is n't after an entirely programmatic approach .
So , if I 'm correct , any decent disk editor will supply the required level of control .
I ca n't be bothered to look any up ( Google will help out here ) but I know there are plenty ( open source , free or proprietry ) for Linux , DOS and Windows .
Hell , you could possibly do it all with shell scripting under Linux if you so desired : - ) Alternatively , maybe kidcharles wants to make spirograph like artwork for creatures that can see in the magnetic spectrum .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When someone says they want complete control over the locations of bits on a drive that could be taken to mean the actual magnetic domains (which aren't simply digital values anyway) or it could just mean the logical digital values that are seen by the OS and filesystem drivers.
I wonder if by using phrases like 'magnetic hard drive platter' and mentioning Reed-Solomon encoding, kidcharles has made people think of the lowest level meaning of 'location of bits', whereas in actual fact he just wants something like /dev/sda.
'A free and open source solution' is mentioned.. but theres no mention of what form this solution might take.
In the case of a custom HDD controller (which people have suggested as a solution) this would mean something like a VHDL or Verilog implementation (but it would be highly vendor and model specific, plus there'd probably be IP issues).
But when people say 'a free and open source solution' they tend to mean software running on a common desktop OS.
Oh and I guess there's the question about 'any good utilities' which suggests that kidcharles isn't after an entirely programmatic approach.
So, if I'm correct, any decent disk editor will supply the required level of control.
I can't be bothered to look any up (Google will help out here) but I know there are plenty (open source, free or proprietry) for Linux, DOS and Windows.
Hell, you could possibly do it all with shell scripting under Linux if you so desired :-)

Alternatively, maybe kidcharles wants to make spirograph like artwork for creatures that can see in the magnetic spectrum.
</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345562</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>jspenguin1</author>
	<datestamp>1267632060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Was it an ATA drive? Did it not support a Host Protected Area? With HPA, you can set the drive to whatever size you want. Also, you could probably get an adapter and use a 128MB CompactFlash card.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Was it an ATA drive ?
Did it not support a Host Protected Area ?
With HPA , you can set the drive to whatever size you want .
Also , you could probably get an adapter and use a 128MB CompactFlash card .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Was it an ATA drive?
Did it not support a Host Protected Area?
With HPA, you can set the drive to whatever size you want.
Also, you could probably get an adapter and use a 128MB CompactFlash card.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343842</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31349830</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267608000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My thoughts exactly... Too bad he'll probably have no ISA slot for the controller.</p><p>Wait what was ISA again?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My thoughts exactly... Too bad he 'll probably have no ISA slot for the controller.Wait what was ISA again ?
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My thoughts exactly... Too bad he'll probably have no ISA slot for the controller.Wait what was ISA again?
:)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344270</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344232</id>
	<title>Re:If you have to ask, it's hopeless</title>
	<author>vlm</author>
	<datestamp>1267625880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>It seems to me that if you're involved in such a project and have to ask how to do it, it's doomed.</p></div><p>Agreed, except that he may only need that initial kick to find terms to google.</p><p>For example, I know that to do what he wants, he needs to learn about the MFM vs RLL interfaces from the mid 80s, not because he will emulate either, but if he doesn't understand both and how they worked and relate to each other, he's has no chance.  He is more or less trying to make a hard drive version of the catweasel floppy controller.  If he never heard of a catweasel he would have a hard time figuring out he needs to learn about it.</p><p>Image scans from the very detailed technical manuals for DEC's minicomputer hard drives are available online.  This is from the era of individual TTL chips, he's basically going to replicate / emulate / reverse engineer that hardware into his microcontroller in order to write individual 1/0, after all they had a solution that worked 40-50 years ago.  If he didn't already know that, he would have a hard time figuring out he needed to know that.</p><p>Now if he already knows that stuff, and is really asking how to get MPLAB working so he can program his PIC, well yeah then he's well and truely lost.</p><p>But given those first steps/hints, I think a reasonably experienced EE/CE type could probably figure out the rest of it.</p><p>Adding to your nuclear analogy, if someone went back in time and told folks after 1920 to play with neutrons and U-235, they would get quite the head start on the rest of the world that didn't get that idea to try that until much later.  They had all the prerequisites by 1920 but it took many years to get the right combination of ideas...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It seems to me that if you 're involved in such a project and have to ask how to do it , it 's doomed.Agreed , except that he may only need that initial kick to find terms to google.For example , I know that to do what he wants , he needs to learn about the MFM vs RLL interfaces from the mid 80s , not because he will emulate either , but if he does n't understand both and how they worked and relate to each other , he 's has no chance .
He is more or less trying to make a hard drive version of the catweasel floppy controller .
If he never heard of a catweasel he would have a hard time figuring out he needs to learn about it.Image scans from the very detailed technical manuals for DEC 's minicomputer hard drives are available online .
This is from the era of individual TTL chips , he 's basically going to replicate / emulate / reverse engineer that hardware into his microcontroller in order to write individual 1/0 , after all they had a solution that worked 40-50 years ago .
If he did n't already know that , he would have a hard time figuring out he needed to know that.Now if he already knows that stuff , and is really asking how to get MPLAB working so he can program his PIC , well yeah then he 's well and truely lost.But given those first steps/hints , I think a reasonably experienced EE/CE type could probably figure out the rest of it.Adding to your nuclear analogy , if someone went back in time and told folks after 1920 to play with neutrons and U-235 , they would get quite the head start on the rest of the world that did n't get that idea to try that until much later .
They had all the prerequisites by 1920 but it took many years to get the right combination of ideas.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It seems to me that if you're involved in such a project and have to ask how to do it, it's doomed.Agreed, except that he may only need that initial kick to find terms to google.For example, I know that to do what he wants, he needs to learn about the MFM vs RLL interfaces from the mid 80s, not because he will emulate either, but if he doesn't understand both and how they worked and relate to each other, he's has no chance.
He is more or less trying to make a hard drive version of the catweasel floppy controller.
If he never heard of a catweasel he would have a hard time figuring out he needs to learn about it.Image scans from the very detailed technical manuals for DEC's minicomputer hard drives are available online.
This is from the era of individual TTL chips, he's basically going to replicate / emulate / reverse engineer that hardware into his microcontroller in order to write individual 1/0, after all they had a solution that worked 40-50 years ago.
If he didn't already know that, he would have a hard time figuring out he needed to know that.Now if he already knows that stuff, and is really asking how to get MPLAB working so he can program his PIC, well yeah then he's well and truely lost.But given those first steps/hints, I think a reasonably experienced EE/CE type could probably figure out the rest of it.Adding to your nuclear analogy, if someone went back in time and told folks after 1920 to play with neutrons and U-235, they would get quite the head start on the rest of the world that didn't get that idea to try that until much later.
They had all the prerequisites by 1920 but it took many years to get the right combination of ideas...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345070</id>
	<title>Re:Please help. I'll change my life.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267629900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you send a million dollars to the Swiss bank account I name I will guarantee your success. I will want to remain anonymous since I am you from the future and I can't interact with you too much or I risk altering my own time line. Simply place the million dollars in the account and you will thank me later.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you send a million dollars to the Swiss bank account I name I will guarantee your success .
I will want to remain anonymous since I am you from the future and I ca n't interact with you too much or I risk altering my own time line .
Simply place the million dollars in the account and you will thank me later .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you send a million dollars to the Swiss bank account I name I will guarantee your success.
I will want to remain anonymous since I am you from the future and I can't interact with you too much or I risk altering my own time line.
Simply place the million dollars in the account and you will thank me later.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344844</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344970</id>
	<title>Re:Wrong.</title>
	<author>jellomizer</author>
	<datestamp>1267629480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It would be nice to know why the poster thinks this feature is important.  The only things I can think of is the following...<br>He is using parts from a hard drive to make a robot.  So he wants to control a Robot using the hard logic board, to control the mechanisms.<br>He is using the high speed nature of the drive and the noses it makes to make a speaker out of it by moving writing bits in the right spot.<br>Trying to make a full real-time application.<br>Researching better algorithms for drive storage.<br>Attempting to make some sort of digital watermark on the drive.</p><p>The first two are just silly hacks which would get geek creds but not overly useful.</p><p>The Real Time System You probably need more then off the shelf and free software to do the trick</p><p>And the Research you could probably program a simulator to simulate the results.</p><p>The Watermark idea will work until someone fills up the drive.</p><p>So I would agree with the poster unless you come up with a good reason where there isn't an other approach I don't see the need to do this.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It would be nice to know why the poster thinks this feature is important .
The only things I can think of is the following...He is using parts from a hard drive to make a robot .
So he wants to control a Robot using the hard logic board , to control the mechanisms.He is using the high speed nature of the drive and the noses it makes to make a speaker out of it by moving writing bits in the right spot.Trying to make a full real-time application.Researching better algorithms for drive storage.Attempting to make some sort of digital watermark on the drive.The first two are just silly hacks which would get geek creds but not overly useful.The Real Time System You probably need more then off the shelf and free software to do the trickAnd the Research you could probably program a simulator to simulate the results.The Watermark idea will work until someone fills up the drive.So I would agree with the poster unless you come up with a good reason where there is n't an other approach I do n't see the need to do this .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It would be nice to know why the poster thinks this feature is important.
The only things I can think of is the following...He is using parts from a hard drive to make a robot.
So he wants to control a Robot using the hard logic board, to control the mechanisms.He is using the high speed nature of the drive and the noses it makes to make a speaker out of it by moving writing bits in the right spot.Trying to make a full real-time application.Researching better algorithms for drive storage.Attempting to make some sort of digital watermark on the drive.The first two are just silly hacks which would get geek creds but not overly useful.The Real Time System You probably need more then off the shelf and free software to do the trickAnd the Research you could probably program a simulator to simulate the results.The Watermark idea will work until someone fills up the drive.So I would agree with the poster unless you come up with a good reason where there isn't an other approach I don't see the need to do this.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342912</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345344</id>
	<title>Not practical</title>
	<author>clone53421</author>
	<datestamp>1267631160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><em>Why</em> would you need to do that?</p><p>As others have said, your choices are few:</p><p>A) find ancient hardware that will actually let you do it<br>B) create your own hardware<br>C) write to a disk image instead and emulate the entire thing in software</p><p>Obviously C is going to be the easiest, most portable, but least efficient of the three. Without knowing why you need to do this, though, or what exactly you need to do, I&rsquo;m thinking C is the best.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why would you need to do that ? As others have said , your choices are few : A ) find ancient hardware that will actually let you do itB ) create your own hardwareC ) write to a disk image instead and emulate the entire thing in softwareObviously C is going to be the easiest , most portable , but least efficient of the three .
Without knowing why you need to do this , though , or what exactly you need to do , I    m thinking C is the best .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why would you need to do that?As others have said, your choices are few:A) find ancient hardware that will actually let you do itB) create your own hardwareC) write to a disk image instead and emulate the entire thing in softwareObviously C is going to be the easiest, most portable, but least efficient of the three.
Without knowing why you need to do this, though, or what exactly you need to do, I’m thinking C is the best.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344338</id>
	<title>Do you really need that much control?</title>
	<author>DarkOx</author>
	<datestamp>1267626420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you wrote your own filesystem or other record delimiting scheme and you could interface the drive normally at the block layer.  Sure the controller might map blocks elsewhere but anytime you read the drive its going to reply with the same block from the same "logical" location, even if you move it to another machine.</p><p>So for all practical use, what difference does it make?  Unless you were planning to actually remove the platters from the drive and install them in a different drive later, then you have a problem but if that is the case I think you should take a few steps back and reconsider your process..</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you wrote your own filesystem or other record delimiting scheme and you could interface the drive normally at the block layer .
Sure the controller might map blocks elsewhere but anytime you read the drive its going to reply with the same block from the same " logical " location , even if you move it to another machine.So for all practical use , what difference does it make ?
Unless you were planning to actually remove the platters from the drive and install them in a different drive later , then you have a problem but if that is the case I think you should take a few steps back and reconsider your process. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you wrote your own filesystem or other record delimiting scheme and you could interface the drive normally at the block layer.
Sure the controller might map blocks elsewhere but anytime you read the drive its going to reply with the same block from the same "logical" location, even if you move it to another machine.So for all practical use, what difference does it make?
Unless you were planning to actually remove the platters from the drive and install them in a different drive later, then you have a problem but if that is the case I think you should take a few steps back and reconsider your process..</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342920</id>
	<title>Hm ...</title>
	<author>garry\_g</author>
	<datestamp>1267616220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This kind of copy protection has been outdated for quite some while and should have died with floppy disks<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This kind of copy protection has been outdated for quite some while and should have died with floppy disks .. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This kind of copy protection has been outdated for quite some while and should have died with floppy disks ...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346260</id>
	<title>Simple Answer</title>
	<author>jebrew</author>
	<datestamp>1267635000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There are a lot of comments to shift through, so I imagine someone else has already put it out there that the long and short of it is: not without custom hardware.  Additionally, if you have the hardware to do something useful with the bits once they've been written, then you should have the means to perform the writes.
If you're wanting to get exactly the bits that the drive controller thinks are in particular places without regard for OS caching and so on, then doing direct SCSI passthrough will get you as close to what you want as the drive will allow, though this still leaves ECC and you'll have to deal with sector boundaries (512b for the majority of drives, 520b seems to be mildly popular as well).

As has been pointed out by many, knowing why you want to do this may lead to a better solution.</htmltext>
<tokenext>There are a lot of comments to shift through , so I imagine someone else has already put it out there that the long and short of it is : not without custom hardware .
Additionally , if you have the hardware to do something useful with the bits once they 've been written , then you should have the means to perform the writes .
If you 're wanting to get exactly the bits that the drive controller thinks are in particular places without regard for OS caching and so on , then doing direct SCSI passthrough will get you as close to what you want as the drive will allow , though this still leaves ECC and you 'll have to deal with sector boundaries ( 512b for the majority of drives , 520b seems to be mildly popular as well ) .
As has been pointed out by many , knowing why you want to do this may lead to a better solution .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are a lot of comments to shift through, so I imagine someone else has already put it out there that the long and short of it is: not without custom hardware.
Additionally, if you have the hardware to do something useful with the bits once they've been written, then you should have the means to perform the writes.
If you're wanting to get exactly the bits that the drive controller thinks are in particular places without regard for OS caching and so on, then doing direct SCSI passthrough will get you as close to what you want as the drive will allow, though this still leaves ECC and you'll have to deal with sector boundaries (512b for the majority of drives, 520b seems to be mildly popular as well).
As has been pointed out by many, knowing why you want to do this may lead to a better solution.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31350996</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>TekPolitik</author>
	<datestamp>1267613580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It may also be that the question is wrong - it certainly lacks internal consistency, talking in the opening about physical position on the platter and then going on to talk about the file system. If you want to literally control the physical position on the platter, the file system is the very least of your problems. On the other hand if all you want is to bypass the file system, it's a simple matter (on anything with a UNIX heritage) of writing to the right device files.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It may also be that the question is wrong - it certainly lacks internal consistency , talking in the opening about physical position on the platter and then going on to talk about the file system .
If you want to literally control the physical position on the platter , the file system is the very least of your problems .
On the other hand if all you want is to bypass the file system , it 's a simple matter ( on anything with a UNIX heritage ) of writing to the right device files .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It may also be that the question is wrong - it certainly lacks internal consistency, talking in the opening about physical position on the platter and then going on to talk about the file system.
If you want to literally control the physical position on the platter, the file system is the very least of your problems.
On the other hand if all you want is to bypass the file system, it's a simple matter (on anything with a UNIX heritage) of writing to the right device files.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343018</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345586</id>
	<title>LigthScribe like</title>
	<author>saulot</author>
	<datestamp>1267632120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Maybe the author want to make "art" using a light scribe like method...
I guess that his guess is that a bunch of "1" could be visible somehow.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe the author want to make " art " using a light scribe like method.. . I guess that his guess is that a bunch of " 1 " could be visible somehow .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe the author want to make "art" using a light scribe like method...
I guess that his guess is that a bunch of "1" could be visible somehow.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346616</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>number11</author>
	<datestamp>1267636620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>That was my first idea too "Find an old MFM/RLL drive, and have at it" - then I realized, "You know, I'll bet that more than 1/2 of the readers of<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. don't even remember them"</i></p><p>Remember them?  I think I've got a pile of them somewhere, just waiting for them to come back into fashion.  And a few of those old WD controllers they used.  But maybe it's time to throw out the shoebox labeled "MFM CABLES".  Hmm.. $35 on eBay for a used ST225, I guess I need to wait for the pile to appreciate some more.</p><p>Whoever said "find an old 486" isn't really in sync, 486s are way too modern.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That was my first idea too " Find an old MFM/RLL drive , and have at it " - then I realized , " You know , I 'll bet that more than 1/2 of the readers of / .
do n't even remember them " Remember them ?
I think I 've got a pile of them somewhere , just waiting for them to come back into fashion .
And a few of those old WD controllers they used .
But maybe it 's time to throw out the shoebox labeled " MFM CABLES " .
Hmm.. $ 35 on eBay for a used ST225 , I guess I need to wait for the pile to appreciate some more.Whoever said " find an old 486 " is n't really in sync , 486s are way too modern .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That was my first idea too "Find an old MFM/RLL drive, and have at it" - then I realized, "You know, I'll bet that more than 1/2 of the readers of /.
don't even remember them"Remember them?
I think I've got a pile of them somewhere, just waiting for them to come back into fashion.
And a few of those old WD controllers they used.
But maybe it's time to throw out the shoebox labeled "MFM CABLES".
Hmm.. $35 on eBay for a used ST225, I guess I need to wait for the pile to appreciate some more.Whoever said "find an old 486" isn't really in sync, 486s are way too modern.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344270</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343594</id>
	<title>He may mean something a bit different.</title>
	<author>CFD339</author>
	<datestamp>1267621860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Some operating systems have volume management tools that do let you get a great deal more specific about where data is written.  Normally, I'm a Linux or Wintel guy, but I have managed some AIX boxes a few times and from setting up a large one once I recall that it's logical volume manager allowed you to create volumes on the SCSI drive systems that were very specific about how and what part of the drive was used.   You could specific, for example, that a particular volume use only the outer tracks  (or inner or middle I suppose) of the drives -- in addition to a great many options for raid striping and transaction logs and so on.</p><p>The idea is that the outer edges of the platters travel faster under the read/write heads than the inner and so performed differently.  Also, you could keep the head from having to jump around as much by keeping all the data that tended to be used at the same time on the same tracks -- reducing your average seek time when reading randomly from that pool of data.</p><p>In practice, I think this mattered a great deal more when us old guys were dealing with 80+ millisecond random seek times on 5 1/4" wide full height (what would now be considered two bays) drives -- or larger disk-pack based drives (aka washing machines) with the massive physical movement necessary for those read/write heads.</p><p>Today, I think the admin is better focused on distributing the data load better across different drives/arrays to even the load out and also focused on reducing overall disk i/o in creating database schema and applications.   Focusing on very fine details like this is likely to have only marginal benefit next to those key areas --- but I can't presume to know for sure what this project has in mind.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Some operating systems have volume management tools that do let you get a great deal more specific about where data is written .
Normally , I 'm a Linux or Wintel guy , but I have managed some AIX boxes a few times and from setting up a large one once I recall that it 's logical volume manager allowed you to create volumes on the SCSI drive systems that were very specific about how and what part of the drive was used .
You could specific , for example , that a particular volume use only the outer tracks ( or inner or middle I suppose ) of the drives -- in addition to a great many options for raid striping and transaction logs and so on.The idea is that the outer edges of the platters travel faster under the read/write heads than the inner and so performed differently .
Also , you could keep the head from having to jump around as much by keeping all the data that tended to be used at the same time on the same tracks -- reducing your average seek time when reading randomly from that pool of data.In practice , I think this mattered a great deal more when us old guys were dealing with 80 + millisecond random seek times on 5 1/4 " wide full height ( what would now be considered two bays ) drives -- or larger disk-pack based drives ( aka washing machines ) with the massive physical movement necessary for those read/write heads.Today , I think the admin is better focused on distributing the data load better across different drives/arrays to even the load out and also focused on reducing overall disk i/o in creating database schema and applications .
Focusing on very fine details like this is likely to have only marginal benefit next to those key areas --- but I ca n't presume to know for sure what this project has in mind .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Some operating systems have volume management tools that do let you get a great deal more specific about where data is written.
Normally, I'm a Linux or Wintel guy, but I have managed some AIX boxes a few times and from setting up a large one once I recall that it's logical volume manager allowed you to create volumes on the SCSI drive systems that were very specific about how and what part of the drive was used.
You could specific, for example, that a particular volume use only the outer tracks  (or inner or middle I suppose) of the drives -- in addition to a great many options for raid striping and transaction logs and so on.The idea is that the outer edges of the platters travel faster under the read/write heads than the inner and so performed differently.
Also, you could keep the head from having to jump around as much by keeping all the data that tended to be used at the same time on the same tracks -- reducing your average seek time when reading randomly from that pool of data.In practice, I think this mattered a great deal more when us old guys were dealing with 80+ millisecond random seek times on 5 1/4" wide full height (what would now be considered two bays) drives -- or larger disk-pack based drives (aka washing machines) with the massive physical movement necessary for those read/write heads.Today, I think the admin is better focused on distributing the data load better across different drives/arrays to even the load out and also focused on reducing overall disk i/o in creating database schema and applications.
Focusing on very fine details like this is likely to have only marginal benefit next to those key areas --- but I can't presume to know for sure what this project has in mind.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344242</id>
	<title>maybe writing directly to the device files?</title>
	<author>AlgorithMan</author>
	<datestamp>1267625940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think you might want to read and write directly from or to<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/dev/sdX for the whole disk number X or to<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/dev/sdXi for the i-th partition on disk X. I'm not 100\% shure though, what happens with boot sectors, boot loaders, partition tables and such...<br> <br>

of course this way you can only work with bytes instead of bits, but that's just a mathematical problem, you can solve this with some bit-shifting.<blockquote><div><p>int base2[] = {128, 64, 32, 16, 8, 4, 2, 1};<br> <br>

bool getbit(FILE* device, int num) {<br>
 fseek(device, num/8, SEEK\_SET);<br>
 return (fgetc(device) / base2[num\%8]) \% 2;<br>
}<br>
<br>
void setbit(FILE* device, int num, bool bit) {<br>
 fseek(device, num/8, SEEK\_SET);<br>
 char tmp = fgetc(device);<br>
 fseek(device, num/8, SEEK\_SET);<br>
<br>
 int basenm8 = base2[num \% 8];<br>
 fputc(device, (((tmp/(2*basenm8))*2 + bit)*basenm8) + tmp\%basenm8  );<br>
}</p></div>
</blockquote><p>
or something like that...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think you might want to read and write directly from or to /dev/sdX for the whole disk number X or to /dev/sdXi for the i-th partition on disk X. I 'm not 100 \ % shure though , what happens with boot sectors , boot loaders , partition tables and such.. . of course this way you can only work with bytes instead of bits , but that 's just a mathematical problem , you can solve this with some bit-shifting.int base2 [ ] = { 128 , 64 , 32 , 16 , 8 , 4 , 2 , 1 } ; bool getbit ( FILE * device , int num ) { fseek ( device , num/8 , SEEK \ _SET ) ; return ( fgetc ( device ) / base2 [ num \ % 8 ] ) \ % 2 ; } void setbit ( FILE * device , int num , bool bit ) { fseek ( device , num/8 , SEEK \ _SET ) ; char tmp = fgetc ( device ) ; fseek ( device , num/8 , SEEK \ _SET ) ; int basenm8 = base2 [ num \ % 8 ] ; fputc ( device , ( ( ( tmp/ ( 2 * basenm8 ) ) * 2 + bit ) * basenm8 ) + tmp \ % basenm8 ) ; } or something like that.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think you might want to read and write directly from or to /dev/sdX for the whole disk number X or to /dev/sdXi for the i-th partition on disk X. I'm not 100\% shure though, what happens with boot sectors, boot loaders, partition tables and such... 

of course this way you can only work with bytes instead of bits, but that's just a mathematical problem, you can solve this with some bit-shifting.int base2[] = {128, 64, 32, 16, 8, 4, 2, 1}; 

bool getbit(FILE* device, int num) {
 fseek(device, num/8, SEEK\_SET);
 return (fgetc(device) / base2[num\%8]) \% 2;
}

void setbit(FILE* device, int num, bool bit) {
 fseek(device, num/8, SEEK\_SET);
 char tmp = fgetc(device);
 fseek(device, num/8, SEEK\_SET);

 int basenm8 = base2[num \% 8];
 fputc(device, (((tmp/(2*basenm8))*2 + bit)*basenm8) + tmp\%basenm8  );
}

or something like that...
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346354</id>
	<title>Easy</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267635300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It is actually quite easy, you need to redefine "bit" though to be whatever is the minimum chunk of data your controller will write to the disk.  You can then pad out your data to be all 1's or 0's to fill up that minimum chuck.  You can then invent your own parity/error system at whatever level you like.  Sure you are not turning on/off individual atoms/whatever but this should achieve the granularity you are seeking, at the expense of capacity.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is actually quite easy , you need to redefine " bit " though to be whatever is the minimum chunk of data your controller will write to the disk .
You can then pad out your data to be all 1 's or 0 's to fill up that minimum chuck .
You can then invent your own parity/error system at whatever level you like .
Sure you are not turning on/off individual atoms/whatever but this should achieve the granularity you are seeking , at the expense of capacity .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is actually quite easy, you need to redefine "bit" though to be whatever is the minimum chunk of data your controller will write to the disk.
You can then pad out your data to be all 1's or 0's to fill up that minimum chuck.
You can then invent your own parity/error system at whatever level you like.
Sure you are not turning on/off individual atoms/whatever but this should achieve the granularity you are seeking, at the expense of capacity.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343946</id>
	<title>Have a Yabadabadoo Time</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267624080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you'd like to write 1s and 0s will physically on the platter, just borrow Mr. Slate's dictation bird.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you 'd like to write 1s and 0s will physically on the platter , just borrow Mr. Slate 's dictation bird .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you'd like to write 1s and 0s will physically on the platter, just borrow Mr. Slate's dictation bird.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31348648</id>
	<title>Several things you need to know.</title>
	<author>Measure Twice</author>
	<datestamp>1267645500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>First, ones and zeros on a harddisk platter are not magnetic north and south, they are different frequencies of an FM sine wave.
Second, the formatted tracks on a harddisk don't line up physically. The start of the track is wherever the head was when the controller was told to format that track.
Third, Sectors aren't written in precise places inside their formatting. The low-level formatting process writes headers across the track that are used later to find the data. There's enough extra space between those headers that a sector of data will fit there, based on the ability of the controller to read where the sector starts and be able to write it.
 If you really need to write magnetic north &amp; south to specific spots, you should look at Floppies. Floppy disks have a hole to mark one spot on the disk, so the start of track comes much closer to lining up. You can even write ones and zeroes instead of FM patterns if you have an old Apple II, which didn't use FM encoding.</htmltext>
<tokenext>First , ones and zeros on a harddisk platter are not magnetic north and south , they are different frequencies of an FM sine wave .
Second , the formatted tracks on a harddisk do n't line up physically .
The start of the track is wherever the head was when the controller was told to format that track .
Third , Sectors are n't written in precise places inside their formatting .
The low-level formatting process writes headers across the track that are used later to find the data .
There 's enough extra space between those headers that a sector of data will fit there , based on the ability of the controller to read where the sector starts and be able to write it .
If you really need to write magnetic north &amp; south to specific spots , you should look at Floppies .
Floppy disks have a hole to mark one spot on the disk , so the start of track comes much closer to lining up .
You can even write ones and zeroes instead of FM patterns if you have an old Apple II , which did n't use FM encoding .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First, ones and zeros on a harddisk platter are not magnetic north and south, they are different frequencies of an FM sine wave.
Second, the formatted tracks on a harddisk don't line up physically.
The start of the track is wherever the head was when the controller was told to format that track.
Third, Sectors aren't written in precise places inside their formatting.
The low-level formatting process writes headers across the track that are used later to find the data.
There's enough extra space between those headers that a sector of data will fit there, based on the ability of the controller to read where the sector starts and be able to write it.
If you really need to write magnetic north &amp; south to specific spots, you should look at Floppies.
Floppy disks have a hole to mark one spot on the disk, so the start of track comes much closer to lining up.
You can even write ones and zeroes instead of FM patterns if you have an old Apple II, which didn't use FM encoding.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31360014</id>
	<title>Tracking reply</title>
	<author>acteon</author>
	<datestamp>1267727640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Tracking reply</htmltext>
<tokenext>Tracking reply</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Tracking reply</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345740</id>
	<title>Re:Tell us your project?</title>
	<author>IICV</author>
	<datestamp>1267632660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><a href="http://bash.org/?866112" title="bash.org">This</a> [bash.org] bash quote is, I think, appropriate:</p><blockquote><div><p> <tt>&lt;glyph&gt; For example - if you came in here asking "how do I use a jackhammer" we might ask "why do you need to use a jackhammer"<br>&lt;glyph&gt; If the answer to the latter question is "to knock my grandmother's head off to let out the evil spirits that gave her cancer", then maybe the problem is actually unrelated to jackhammers</tt></p></div> </blockquote><p>When someone comes in with a question like this, it is entirely worth asking what he's actually trying to accomplish - because writing ones and zeros directly to a hard disk platter is the deepest sort of black magic, and there's absolutely no reason why this is the only way to accomplish what he wants to do.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>This [ bash.org ] bash quote is , I think , appropriate : For example - if you came in here asking " how do I use a jackhammer " we might ask " why do you need to use a jackhammer " If the answer to the latter question is " to knock my grandmother 's head off to let out the evil spirits that gave her cancer " , then maybe the problem is actually unrelated to jackhammers When someone comes in with a question like this , it is entirely worth asking what he 's actually trying to accomplish - because writing ones and zeros directly to a hard disk platter is the deepest sort of black magic , and there 's absolutely no reason why this is the only way to accomplish what he wants to do .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This [bash.org] bash quote is, I think, appropriate:  For example - if you came in here asking "how do I use a jackhammer" we might ask "why do you need to use a jackhammer" If the answer to the latter question is "to knock my grandmother's head off to let out the evil spirits that gave her cancer", then maybe the problem is actually unrelated to jackhammers When someone comes in with a question like this, it is entirely worth asking what he's actually trying to accomplish - because writing ones and zeros directly to a hard disk platter is the deepest sort of black magic, and there's absolutely no reason why this is the only way to accomplish what he wants to do.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344588</id>
	<title>Re:Tell us your project?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267627620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Amen.  I get tired of asking questions about things on the Internet (with me being an expert) and have some idiot telling me "You don't want to do that".  You're exactly right. If they don't want to help the guy with his personal goals, then they should not even bother replying. sheesh.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Amen .
I get tired of asking questions about things on the Internet ( with me being an expert ) and have some idiot telling me " You do n't want to do that " .
You 're exactly right .
If they do n't want to help the guy with his personal goals , then they should not even bother replying .
sheesh .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Amen.
I get tired of asking questions about things on the Internet (with me being an expert) and have some idiot telling me "You don't want to do that".
You're exactly right.
If they don't want to help the guy with his personal goals, then they should not even bother replying.
sheesh.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31348970</id>
	<title>Talk To These Folks</title>
	<author>not\_hylas( )</author>
	<datestamp>1267647300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Talk to these folks, they'll get you on the right track.</p><p>Plan 9:</p><p><a href="http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/" title="bell-labs.com">http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/</a> [bell-labs.com]</p><p><a href="http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/mailing\_lists/" title="bell-labs.com">http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/mailing\_lists/</a> [bell-labs.com]</p><p>If there's a way - they'll set you on the right track.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Talk to these folks , they 'll get you on the right track.Plan 9 : http : //plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/ [ bell-labs.com ] http : //plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/mailing \ _lists/ [ bell-labs.com ] If there 's a way - they 'll set you on the right track .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Talk to these folks, they'll get you on the right track.Plan 9:http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/ [bell-labs.com]http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/mailing\_lists/ [bell-labs.com]If there's a way - they'll set you on the right track.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343864</id>
	<title>There is an API for direct acssess to disk</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267623540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>But disk manufactures won't expose it to any one (no without the proper leverage)<br>I know that cause use use those api's to simulate bad sectors for testing our embedded system video capability.</p><p>go ahead and talk with some of the manufactures, you'll get the best answer from them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>But disk manufactures wo n't expose it to any one ( no without the proper leverage ) I know that cause use use those api 's to simulate bad sectors for testing our embedded system video capability.go ahead and talk with some of the manufactures , you 'll get the best answer from them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But disk manufactures won't expose it to any one (no without the proper leverage)I know that cause use use those api's to simulate bad sectors for testing our embedded system video capability.go ahead and talk with some of the manufactures, you'll get the best answer from them.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31349786</id>
	<title>DD!</title>
	<author>wolf1oo</author>
	<datestamp>1267607880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Have you ever heard of the Unix command dd? I think that may be what you want. It writes directly to a disk, regardless of filesystem and/or format.</p><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dd\_(Unix)" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dd\_(Unix)</a> [wikipedia.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Have you ever heard of the Unix command dd ?
I think that may be what you want .
It writes directly to a disk , regardless of filesystem and/or format.http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dd \ _ ( Unix ) [ wikipedia.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Have you ever heard of the Unix command dd?
I think that may be what you want.
It writes directly to a disk, regardless of filesystem and/or format.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dd\_(Unix) [wikipedia.org]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346784</id>
	<title>Re:Tell us your project?</title>
	<author>TangoMargarine</author>
	<datestamp>1267637280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I ask how to do stupid things in CS classes on a fairly regular basis, just so I can understand the way stuff work. And let's not forget the classic nerd answer, "because I can." Although if this is in a research context, obviously it doesn't apply.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I ask how to do stupid things in CS classes on a fairly regular basis , just so I can understand the way stuff work .
And let 's not forget the classic nerd answer , " because I can .
" Although if this is in a research context , obviously it does n't apply .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I ask how to do stupid things in CS classes on a fairly regular basis, just so I can understand the way stuff work.
And let's not forget the classic nerd answer, "because I can.
" Although if this is in a research context, obviously it doesn't apply.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344026</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344920</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>TheLink</author>
	<datestamp>1267629240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>But you couldn't control exactly what was written with the Apple II drives.<br><br>IIRC the spec was you could not expect to \_reliably\_ write a bit stream that has more than two zeroes in a row. In practice you could usually get away with three zeroes in a row. You had to do stuff like write sync streams e.g. 11111111001111111100111111110011111111001111111100. Which are basically 5 x 10 bits of 1111111100.<br><br>You could control the drive head too. You could even move the head in sub-track increments - e.g. half track. However, tracks have to be at least a full track apart to be reliably read/written.<br><br>All these is why I find the submitter's request rather strange. When you get down to the low level details, there is no such thing as exact.<br><br>Even if you are writing one bit on the entire platter with a huge magnet<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:).<br><br>So I'm curious on what he's really trying to achieve.</htmltext>
<tokenext>But you could n't control exactly what was written with the Apple II drives.IIRC the spec was you could not expect to \ _reliably \ _ write a bit stream that has more than two zeroes in a row .
In practice you could usually get away with three zeroes in a row .
You had to do stuff like write sync streams e.g .
11111111001111111100111111110011111111001111111100. Which are basically 5 x 10 bits of 1111111100.You could control the drive head too .
You could even move the head in sub-track increments - e.g .
half track .
However , tracks have to be at least a full track apart to be reliably read/written.All these is why I find the submitter 's request rather strange .
When you get down to the low level details , there is no such thing as exact.Even if you are writing one bit on the entire platter with a huge magnet : ) .So I 'm curious on what he 's really trying to achieve .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But you couldn't control exactly what was written with the Apple II drives.IIRC the spec was you could not expect to \_reliably\_ write a bit stream that has more than two zeroes in a row.
In practice you could usually get away with three zeroes in a row.
You had to do stuff like write sync streams e.g.
11111111001111111100111111110011111111001111111100. Which are basically 5 x 10 bits of 1111111100.You could control the drive head too.
You could even move the head in sub-track increments - e.g.
half track.
However, tracks have to be at least a full track apart to be reliably read/written.All these is why I find the submitter's request rather strange.
When you get down to the low level details, there is no such thing as exact.Even if you are writing one bit on the entire platter with a huge magnet :).So I'm curious on what he's really trying to achieve.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344084</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346534</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>operagost</author>
	<datestamp>1267636260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p> <tt>The Apple IIe was a wretched computer with awful software</tt></p></div> </blockquote><p>You know, I'm far from an Apple fanboy, but I used the Apple IIe and by the standards of the day, it was clearly not a "wretched computer with awful software".  It had good graphics, a built-in ML monitor and BASIC, few quirks, and a low enough price that it dominated the USA public school system.  The C64 was a better value, but it had its own problems (like the glacially slow floppy drive).</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The Apple IIe was a wretched computer with awful software You know , I 'm far from an Apple fanboy , but I used the Apple IIe and by the standards of the day , it was clearly not a " wretched computer with awful software " .
It had good graphics , a built-in ML monitor and BASIC , few quirks , and a low enough price that it dominated the USA public school system .
The C64 was a better value , but it had its own problems ( like the glacially slow floppy drive ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> The Apple IIe was a wretched computer with awful software You know, I'm far from an Apple fanboy, but I used the Apple IIe and by the standards of the day, it was clearly not a "wretched computer with awful software".
It had good graphics, a built-in ML monitor and BASIC, few quirks, and a low enough price that it dominated the USA public school system.
The C64 was a better value, but it had its own problems (like the glacially slow floppy drive).
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344084</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342810</id>
	<title>magic marker</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267615200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>It works for me.
<a href="http://www.staples.com/Staples-Dry-Erase-Markers-Chisel-Tip-Black-4-Pack/product\_607101?cmArea=FEATURED:SC1:CG11:DP1101" title="staples.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.staples.com/Staples-Dry-Erase-Markers-Chisel-Tip-Black-4-Pack/product\_607101?cmArea=FEATURED:SC1:CG11:DP1101</a> [staples.com]
Now that someone has said it no one else can be a smart ass and they have to be informative.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It works for me .
http : //www.staples.com/Staples-Dry-Erase-Markers-Chisel-Tip-Black-4-Pack/product \ _607101 ? cmArea = FEATURED : SC1 : CG11 : DP1101 [ staples.com ] Now that someone has said it no one else can be a smart ass and they have to be informative .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It works for me.
http://www.staples.com/Staples-Dry-Erase-Markers-Chisel-Tip-Black-4-Pack/product\_607101?cmArea=FEATURED:SC1:CG11:DP1101 [staples.com]
Now that someone has said it no one else can be a smart ass and they have to be informative.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31379152</id>
	<title>the answer</title>
	<author>ufoolme</author>
	<datestamp>1267816860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>op:all u need is a very small magnet.<br>next question, move on people nothing to see here</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>op : all u need is a very small magnet.next question , move on people nothing to see here</tokentext>
<sentencetext>op:all u need is a very small magnet.next question, move on people nothing to see here</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345856</id>
	<title>Re:Really? Do NONE of us read?</title>
	<author>noidentity</author>
	<datestamp>1267633140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>No less then *7* posts to the SAME XKCD COMIC?!? Christ, bad enough people don't RTFA, at LEAST read the fine comments!</p></div>
</blockquote><p>Sense. Your comment makes none. The summary has no links to TFA, and where is anyone linking to an XKCD comic?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>No less then * 7 * posts to the SAME XKCD COMIC ? ! ?
Christ , bad enough people do n't RTFA , at LEAST read the fine comments !
Sense. Your comment makes none .
The summary has no links to TFA , and where is anyone linking to an XKCD comic ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No less then *7* posts to the SAME XKCD COMIC?!?
Christ, bad enough people don't RTFA, at LEAST read the fine comments!
Sense. Your comment makes none.
The summary has no links to TFA, and where is anyone linking to an XKCD comic?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343562</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343020</id>
	<title>You're doing it wrong!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267617060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p> I need to be able to control exactly where 1s and 0s will appear physically on the platter.</p></div></blockquote><p>No you don't.  Rethink what it is that you're actually trying to achieve and try again.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I need to be able to control exactly where 1s and 0s will appear physically on the platter.No you do n't .
Rethink what it is that you 're actually trying to achieve and try again .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> I need to be able to control exactly where 1s and 0s will appear physically on the platter.No you don't.
Rethink what it is that you're actually trying to achieve and try again.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343182</id>
	<title>Re:Be careful!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267618440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I can attest that improper bit stacking is a very real danger - one that almost cost me my life.</p><p>It was in 1999 in Sierra Leone, and my last assignment before I left for Sydney was to punt three hundred reams of bit-printed A4 four kilometres up the Moa to a nearby monastery.</p><p>It had been a hectic week and the crew the boss had assigned to load the raft had already worked a double shift. Subsequently, they failed to read the job sheet properly and loaded the raft with the all the paper with the zero-bit set on one side and the one-bit set on the other.</p><p>I got about three hundred meters from the dock when I was startled by a large black snake swimming past. I quickly moved from where I was sitting on the zero-bit stack to the one-bit stack, and of course the raft immediately capsized.</p><p>I was told when I reached the shore that the snake had most probably been a mamba - one of the deadliest snakes in Africa. If I had been bitten I would have been dead within minutes.</p><p>I hope this serves as a warning to anyone involved in any kind of data stacking. In short, always properly disperse your bits - your life may depend on it!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I can attest that improper bit stacking is a very real danger - one that almost cost me my life.It was in 1999 in Sierra Leone , and my last assignment before I left for Sydney was to punt three hundred reams of bit-printed A4 four kilometres up the Moa to a nearby monastery.It had been a hectic week and the crew the boss had assigned to load the raft had already worked a double shift .
Subsequently , they failed to read the job sheet properly and loaded the raft with the all the paper with the zero-bit set on one side and the one-bit set on the other.I got about three hundred meters from the dock when I was startled by a large black snake swimming past .
I quickly moved from where I was sitting on the zero-bit stack to the one-bit stack , and of course the raft immediately capsized.I was told when I reached the shore that the snake had most probably been a mamba - one of the deadliest snakes in Africa .
If I had been bitten I would have been dead within minutes.I hope this serves as a warning to anyone involved in any kind of data stacking .
In short , always properly disperse your bits - your life may depend on it !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can attest that improper bit stacking is a very real danger - one that almost cost me my life.It was in 1999 in Sierra Leone, and my last assignment before I left for Sydney was to punt three hundred reams of bit-printed A4 four kilometres up the Moa to a nearby monastery.It had been a hectic week and the crew the boss had assigned to load the raft had already worked a double shift.
Subsequently, they failed to read the job sheet properly and loaded the raft with the all the paper with the zero-bit set on one side and the one-bit set on the other.I got about three hundred meters from the dock when I was startled by a large black snake swimming past.
I quickly moved from where I was sitting on the zero-bit stack to the one-bit stack, and of course the raft immediately capsized.I was told when I reached the shore that the snake had most probably been a mamba - one of the deadliest snakes in Africa.
If I had been bitten I would have been dead within minutes.I hope this serves as a warning to anyone involved in any kind of data stacking.
In short, always properly disperse your bits - your life may depend on it!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342918</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343806</id>
	<title>A reason for such a task</title>
	<author>rzvn</author>
	<datestamp>1267623240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It is possible that he wants to achieve something similar to <a href="http://www.instructables.com/id/Burning-visible-images-onto-CD-Rs-with-data-beta/" title="instructables.com" rel="nofollow">Burning visible images onto CD-Rs with data (beta)</a> [instructables.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>It is possible that he wants to achieve something similar to Burning visible images onto CD-Rs with data ( beta ) [ instructables.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is possible that he wants to achieve something similar to Burning visible images onto CD-Rs with data (beta) [instructables.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345136</id>
	<title>Re:If you have to ask, it's hopeless</title>
	<author>gnieboer</author>
	<datestamp>1267630260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"If you have to ask, it's hopeless"</p><p>Seriously??</p><p>Pretty much any major scientific endeavor started off with individuals with only a vague clue how to accomplish the task they wanted to complete.  While I'm sure sometimes scientists slave away in private, most commonly they collaborate with their peers/co-workers to bounce ideas and seek inspiration.<br>I would say:<br>"If you don't have to ask, you aren't reaching high enough"</p><p>And actually there have been a couple plausible suggestions floated here, so it'd definitely not impossible (RLL/MFM HDD, floppies, custom firmware)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" If you have to ask , it 's hopeless " Seriously ?
? Pretty much any major scientific endeavor started off with individuals with only a vague clue how to accomplish the task they wanted to complete .
While I 'm sure sometimes scientists slave away in private , most commonly they collaborate with their peers/co-workers to bounce ideas and seek inspiration.I would say : " If you do n't have to ask , you are n't reaching high enough " And actually there have been a couple plausible suggestions floated here , so it 'd definitely not impossible ( RLL/MFM HDD , floppies , custom firmware )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"If you have to ask, it's hopeless"Seriously?
?Pretty much any major scientific endeavor started off with individuals with only a vague clue how to accomplish the task they wanted to complete.
While I'm sure sometimes scientists slave away in private, most commonly they collaborate with their peers/co-workers to bounce ideas and seek inspiration.I would say:"If you don't have to ask, you aren't reaching high enough"And actually there have been a couple plausible suggestions floated here, so it'd definitely not impossible (RLL/MFM HDD, floppies, custom firmware)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31353494</id>
	<title>Re:Talk to Steve Gibson author of Spinrite</title>
	<author>PhunkySchtuff</author>
	<datestamp>1267628820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, except Steve Gibson would develop this &#252;ber-leet super seekret method for doing it, would call it by some funky name (Project Y?) and then boast about how it's hand-crafted by a virgin in 100\% assembly language - all the while it just reproduces the functionality of something that already exists (dd)...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , except Steve Gibson would develop this   ber-leet super seekret method for doing it , would call it by some funky name ( Project Y ?
) and then boast about how it 's hand-crafted by a virgin in 100 \ % assembly language - all the while it just reproduces the functionality of something that already exists ( dd ) .. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, except Steve Gibson would develop this über-leet super seekret method for doing it, would call it by some funky name (Project Y?
) and then boast about how it's hand-crafted by a virgin in 100\% assembly language - all the while it just reproduces the functionality of something that already exists (dd)...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342958</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345842</id>
	<title>Floppy?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267633080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Shouldn't this be possible with a plain old floppy drive? Sure, that's just 2 MB of storage (raw bits), but hey, there is a linux utility (superformat) with "example" code to get you started...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Should n't this be possible with a plain old floppy drive ?
Sure , that 's just 2 MB of storage ( raw bits ) , but hey , there is a linux utility ( superformat ) with " example " code to get you started.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Shouldn't this be possible with a plain old floppy drive?
Sure, that's just 2 MB of storage (raw bits), but hey, there is a linux utility (superformat) with "example" code to get you started...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342834</id>
	<title>Butterflies</title>
	<author>Nowhere.Men</author>
	<datestamp>1267615380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><a href="http://xkcd.com/378/" title="xkcd.com" rel="nofollow">http://xkcd.com/378/</a> [xkcd.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //xkcd.com/378/ [ xkcd.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://xkcd.com/378/ [xkcd.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345222</id>
	<title>Re:A real (but expensive) solution:</title>
	<author>straywasp</author>
	<datestamp>1267630680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Almost all data recovery does not involve removing platters. It is one of the last resorts. Try to find the shop where you can buy this magical machine to read bare platters. It doesn't exist. I have heard of something similar that could access old Western Digital drives without the original PCB and firmware. I think it was only a proof of concept though and was specific to a certain model of drive. It was certainly never released as a product and may have been a total fraud.

It's not a real solution. It's your idea of a real solution that simply doesn't exist.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Almost all data recovery does not involve removing platters .
It is one of the last resorts .
Try to find the shop where you can buy this magical machine to read bare platters .
It does n't exist .
I have heard of something similar that could access old Western Digital drives without the original PCB and firmware .
I think it was only a proof of concept though and was specific to a certain model of drive .
It was certainly never released as a product and may have been a total fraud .
It 's not a real solution .
It 's your idea of a real solution that simply does n't exist .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Almost all data recovery does not involve removing platters.
It is one of the last resorts.
Try to find the shop where you can buy this magical machine to read bare platters.
It doesn't exist.
I have heard of something similar that could access old Western Digital drives without the original PCB and firmware.
I think it was only a proof of concept though and was specific to a certain model of drive.
It was certainly never released as a product and may have been a total fraud.
It's not a real solution.
It's your idea of a real solution that simply doesn't exist.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343474</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346936</id>
	<title>Re:Tell us your project?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267637880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>and your deep knowledge of the problem is what entitles you to say that his solution is stupid<br>hell, maybe once you hear the problem you find out that it's an incredibly creative solution that you'd have never came up with.<br>He asked a question, either answer it or don't, but there's no reason to judge.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>and your deep knowledge of the problem is what entitles you to say that his solution is stupidhell , maybe once you hear the problem you find out that it 's an incredibly creative solution that you 'd have never came up with.He asked a question , either answer it or do n't , but there 's no reason to judge .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>and your deep knowledge of the problem is what entitles you to say that his solution is stupidhell, maybe once you hear the problem you find out that it's an incredibly creative solution that you'd have never came up with.He asked a question, either answer it or don't, but there's no reason to judge.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344026</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345534</id>
	<title>rewrite the disk firmware.</title>
	<author>Medievalist</author>
	<datestamp>1267632000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>My question for Slashdot: is there a way to get down to the 'bare metal' and write these bits?</p></div></blockquote><p>Not using commonly available hardware.  The disks sold today contain small computers that take your requests for specific sectors and translate them for maximum reliability and efficiency.  This frees your main processor from doing that work and reserves your I/O bandwidth for data; it's more efficient.<br>I did what you are talking about in the early 1980s using a PDP-11/34 computer and RL01 and RL02 disk drives.  That system is still running today in an aerospace application, but I would never write something like that today.  It's no longer an optimal use of resources.</p><blockquote><div><p>Any good utilities out there to do this? Obviously a free and open source solution would be preferable, but I'm open to anything at this point.</p></div></blockquote><p>I don't know of any utilities specifically designed to re-write the firmware on hard drives with custom code, but the firmwares are definitely writable, so you should be able to do it if you are motivated enough.  I'd start by <a href="http://www.google.com/search?q=utility+to+write+disk+drive+firmware" title="google.com">googling it</a> [google.com], personally.<br>You might also want to look at the various linux bios projects out there; those guys are re-writing the firmware on their motherboards, which is a somewhat similar process.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>My question for Slashdot : is there a way to get down to the 'bare metal ' and write these bits ? Not using commonly available hardware .
The disks sold today contain small computers that take your requests for specific sectors and translate them for maximum reliability and efficiency .
This frees your main processor from doing that work and reserves your I/O bandwidth for data ; it 's more efficient.I did what you are talking about in the early 1980s using a PDP-11/34 computer and RL01 and RL02 disk drives .
That system is still running today in an aerospace application , but I would never write something like that today .
It 's no longer an optimal use of resources.Any good utilities out there to do this ?
Obviously a free and open source solution would be preferable , but I 'm open to anything at this point.I do n't know of any utilities specifically designed to re-write the firmware on hard drives with custom code , but the firmwares are definitely writable , so you should be able to do it if you are motivated enough .
I 'd start by googling it [ google.com ] , personally.You might also want to look at the various linux bios projects out there ; those guys are re-writing the firmware on their motherboards , which is a somewhat similar process .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My question for Slashdot: is there a way to get down to the 'bare metal' and write these bits?Not using commonly available hardware.
The disks sold today contain small computers that take your requests for specific sectors and translate them for maximum reliability and efficiency.
This frees your main processor from doing that work and reserves your I/O bandwidth for data; it's more efficient.I did what you are talking about in the early 1980s using a PDP-11/34 computer and RL01 and RL02 disk drives.
That system is still running today in an aerospace application, but I would never write something like that today.
It's no longer an optimal use of resources.Any good utilities out there to do this?
Obviously a free and open source solution would be preferable, but I'm open to anything at this point.I don't know of any utilities specifically designed to re-write the firmware on hard drives with custom code, but the firmwares are definitely writable, so you should be able to do it if you are motivated enough.
I'd start by googling it [google.com], personally.You might also want to look at the various linux bios projects out there; those guys are re-writing the firmware on their motherboards, which is a somewhat similar process.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31349802</id>
	<title>Re:Tell us your project?</title>
	<author>marcosdumay</author>
	<datestamp>1267607940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't know... He probably won't get the answer he needs because he didn't ask the right question. But that is an interesting question nonetheless and the comentary may benefit other people.</p><p>I tought on a way to solve a problem of mine by just reading it, and thinking on how hard drivers work.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't know... He probably wo n't get the answer he needs because he did n't ask the right question .
But that is an interesting question nonetheless and the comentary may benefit other people.I tought on a way to solve a problem of mine by just reading it , and thinking on how hard drivers work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't know... He probably won't get the answer he needs because he didn't ask the right question.
But that is an interesting question nonetheless and the comentary may benefit other people.I tought on a way to solve a problem of mine by just reading it, and thinking on how hard drivers work.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342940</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344058</id>
	<title>What about...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267624800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>1. Screw open harddisk, remove parts until platters are visible<br>2. Take felt tipped pen<br>3. Write 1's and 0's.</p><p>Sound good?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>1 .
Screw open harddisk , remove parts until platters are visible2 .
Take felt tipped pen3 .
Write 1 's and 0 's.Sound good ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>1.
Screw open harddisk, remove parts until platters are visible2.
Take felt tipped pen3.
Write 1's and 0's.Sound good?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31347022</id>
	<title>Re:If you have to ask, it's hopeless</title>
	<author>jez9999</author>
	<datestamp>1267638120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Also, the whole idea of it seems rather impossible.</i></p><p>I think everyone's missing the rather obvious answer here: butterflies.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Also , the whole idea of it seems rather impossible.I think everyone 's missing the rather obvious answer here : butterflies .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Also, the whole idea of it seems rather impossible.I think everyone's missing the rather obvious answer here: butterflies.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343474</id>
	<title>A real (but expensive) solution:</title>
	<author>Hurricane78</author>
	<datestamp>1267621140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You know how data restoration companies do it?<br>They take out the spindle with the platters, and put it in their own reading device with its own controller. And with that you can read and write the exact bits (as long as quantum physics allow it). But the head has to be compatible (e.g. perpendicular recording needs entirely different heads).</p><p>I bet those devices can be bought, and I bet their controller is actually just software on the computer (for flexibility). I also bet they come with different head configurations.<br>But they are definitely not going to be cheap.</p><p>Hey, at least it is a real solution.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You know how data restoration companies do it ? They take out the spindle with the platters , and put it in their own reading device with its own controller .
And with that you can read and write the exact bits ( as long as quantum physics allow it ) .
But the head has to be compatible ( e.g .
perpendicular recording needs entirely different heads ) .I bet those devices can be bought , and I bet their controller is actually just software on the computer ( for flexibility ) .
I also bet they come with different head configurations.But they are definitely not going to be cheap.Hey , at least it is a real solution .
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You know how data restoration companies do it?They take out the spindle with the platters, and put it in their own reading device with its own controller.
And with that you can read and write the exact bits (as long as quantum physics allow it).
But the head has to be compatible (e.g.
perpendicular recording needs entirely different heads).I bet those devices can be bought, and I bet their controller is actually just software on the computer (for flexibility).
I also bet they come with different head configurations.But they are definitely not going to be cheap.Hey, at least it is a real solution.
:)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343068</id>
	<title>Re:Talk to Steve Gibson author of Spinrite</title>
	<author>Joce640k</author>
	<datestamp>1267617480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No it doesn't.</p><p>If I read it correctly (it was a couple of years ago) all Spinrite does is move the head to different tracks before trying to read the data. The theory is that a seek from different distances might align the drive head slightly differently to the data.</p><p>As far as I know there's no way to position drive heads directly via IDE/SATA, much less write individual bits. IDE/SATA are high level protocols, all the low-level logic is inside the drive controller.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No it does n't.If I read it correctly ( it was a couple of years ago ) all Spinrite does is move the head to different tracks before trying to read the data .
The theory is that a seek from different distances might align the drive head slightly differently to the data.As far as I know there 's no way to position drive heads directly via IDE/SATA , much less write individual bits .
IDE/SATA are high level protocols , all the low-level logic is inside the drive controller .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No it doesn't.If I read it correctly (it was a couple of years ago) all Spinrite does is move the head to different tracks before trying to read the data.
The theory is that a seek from different distances might align the drive head slightly differently to the data.As far as I know there's no way to position drive heads directly via IDE/SATA, much less write individual bits.
IDE/SATA are high level protocols, all the low-level logic is inside the drive controller.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342958</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346166</id>
	<title>Obligatory xkcd</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267634580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>http://xkcd.com/378/</p><p>Use emacs</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //xkcd.com/378/Use emacs</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://xkcd.com/378/Use emacs</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344282</id>
	<title>Mod -1 KDAWSONFUD</title>
	<author>kenp2002</author>
	<datestamp>1267626120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why is it every time I read an article that is either A: Horribly Biased or B: Idiotic in Premise it is always posted by KDAWSON?</p><p>I can understand trolls and trolling in comments, but seriously Taco, from your editors?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why is it every time I read an article that is either A : Horribly Biased or B : Idiotic in Premise it is always posted by KDAWSON ? I can understand trolls and trolling in comments , but seriously Taco , from your editors ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why is it every time I read an article that is either A: Horribly Biased or B: Idiotic in Premise it is always posted by KDAWSON?I can understand trolls and trolling in comments, but seriously Taco, from your editors?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343304</id>
	<title>Re:You're doing it wrong!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267619820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And if he's trying to see if he can read data patterns off platters by hand from a dismantled drive, and needs a known test pattern to calibrate his equipment with?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And if he 's trying to see if he can read data patterns off platters by hand from a dismantled drive , and needs a known test pattern to calibrate his equipment with ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And if he's trying to see if he can read data patterns off platters by hand from a dismantled drive, and needs a known test pattern to calibrate his equipment with?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343020</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31347554</id>
	<title>Write Bits Directly Onto a Hard Drive Platter?</title>
	<author>zazelite</author>
	<datestamp>1267640220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I believe the technical term for this is deep magic - or I would, if I thought the poster understood what the words 'write', 'bit' and 'platter' mean in the context of hard disk drive tech.  As it is, the question is so nonsensical it's bizarre.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I believe the technical term for this is deep magic - or I would , if I thought the poster understood what the words 'write ' , 'bit ' and 'platter ' mean in the context of hard disk drive tech .
As it is , the question is so nonsensical it 's bizarre .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I believe the technical term for this is deep magic - or I would, if I thought the poster understood what the words 'write', 'bit' and 'platter' mean in the context of hard disk drive tech.
As it is, the question is so nonsensical it's bizarre.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342892</id>
	<title>Why</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267615920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What possible reason would need to do what your suggesting<br>may be its my lack of imagination but why</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What possible reason would need to do what your suggestingmay be its my lack of imagination but why</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What possible reason would need to do what your suggestingmay be its my lack of imagination but why</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31351508</id>
	<title>Re:Wrong.</title>
	<author>LukeWebber</author>
	<datestamp>1267616040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You've got my vote. I can't think of a single good reason why you can't do this using a file on disk rather than an actual disk.<br>Seriously, if the OP wants an answer to such an obscure questions, shouldn't he tell us <i>why</i> he thinks he needs to do this?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 've got my vote .
I ca n't think of a single good reason why you ca n't do this using a file on disk rather than an actual disk.Seriously , if the OP wants an answer to such an obscure questions , should n't he tell us why he thinks he needs to do this ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You've got my vote.
I can't think of a single good reason why you can't do this using a file on disk rather than an actual disk.Seriously, if the OP wants an answer to such an obscure questions, shouldn't he tell us why he thinks he needs to do this?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342912</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345804</id>
	<title>Write bits directly</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267632960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Good old Steve Gibson of Gibson Research (http://www.grc.com)  used to know how to do this trick.  He has a utility called SpinRite that allows the software to write and read in places on the disk where the disk intelligence will not allow.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Good old Steve Gibson of Gibson Research ( http : //www.grc.com ) used to know how to do this trick .
He has a utility called SpinRite that allows the software to write and read in places on the disk where the disk intelligence will not allow .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Good old Steve Gibson of Gibson Research (http://www.grc.com)  used to know how to do this trick.
He has a utility called SpinRite that allows the software to write and read in places on the disk where the disk intelligence will not allow.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344870</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>trejrco</author>
	<datestamp>1267629060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You plug that 20MB MFM HDD into an RLL controller, and presto - you know have a 30MB HDD.  *BAM*.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/feeling old now.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You plug that 20MB MFM HDD into an RLL controller , and presto - you know have a 30MB HDD .
* BAM * . /feeling old now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You plug that 20MB MFM HDD into an RLL controller, and presto - you know have a 30MB HDD.
*BAM*. /feeling old now.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343032</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346650</id>
	<title>Re:Wrong.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267636740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Feed a troll and they fap all over your thread.  Blast! I've done it again!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Feed a troll and they fap all over your thread .
Blast ! I 've done it again !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Feed a troll and they fap all over your thread.
Blast! I've done it again!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342912</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31349346</id>
	<title>Re:If you have to ask, it's hopeless</title>
	<author>dominious</author>
	<datestamp>1267649160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>people like you are very narrow minded. you use words like the project is doomed, why would you want to do this in the first place etc... He knows why he wants to do it in the first place. That's not the point. He tried for some help that maybe will save him some time. But if he doesn't find it then he can go on and do some research on his own and spend some more time on it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>people like you are very narrow minded .
you use words like the project is doomed , why would you want to do this in the first place etc... He knows why he wants to do it in the first place .
That 's not the point .
He tried for some help that maybe will save him some time .
But if he does n't find it then he can go on and do some research on his own and spend some more time on it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>people like you are very narrow minded.
you use words like the project is doomed, why would you want to do this in the first place etc... He knows why he wants to do it in the first place.
That's not the point.
He tried for some help that maybe will save him some time.
But if he doesn't find it then he can go on and do some research on his own and spend some more time on it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342858</id>
	<title>How about</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267615620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm not 100\% sure, but on a *nix system you might be able to do this by writing to<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/dev/, where device represents the HDD.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not 100 \ % sure , but on a * nix system you might be able to do this by writing to /dev/ , where device represents the HDD .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not 100\% sure, but on a *nix system you might be able to do this by writing to /dev/, where device represents the HDD.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344302</id>
	<title>dd?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267626240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Any reason why the *nix "dd" utility won't work?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Any reason why the * nix " dd " utility wo n't work ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Any reason why the *nix "dd" utility won't work?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346400</id>
	<title>Re:Are you sure that's your requirement?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267635600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Who knows, he just might require a vintage IBM 5100 for an upcoming task in the future. A hairbrained FTL project just might prove useful afterall.</p><p>My guess as to what may seem plausible for the current problem is that some undocumented jumper pin setup on an older IDE drive that may yield results. (Perhaps a config for an external controller instead of on-board?) But then again its more likely to just thrash the drive, and even if such a direct mode were available it's likely not to be documented anywhere outside of manufacturer testing. Even if this was the case for a given model, it would take a good while to figure it out and likely ruin a few drives without any insider knowledge.</p><p>A better bet would be to put some money on the table with a drive manufacturer or two rather than asking random slashdot people. Especially ACs that don't care much about karma and can't be arsed to register.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Who knows , he just might require a vintage IBM 5100 for an upcoming task in the future .
A hairbrained FTL project just might prove useful afterall.My guess as to what may seem plausible for the current problem is that some undocumented jumper pin setup on an older IDE drive that may yield results .
( Perhaps a config for an external controller instead of on-board ?
) But then again its more likely to just thrash the drive , and even if such a direct mode were available it 's likely not to be documented anywhere outside of manufacturer testing .
Even if this was the case for a given model , it would take a good while to figure it out and likely ruin a few drives without any insider knowledge.A better bet would be to put some money on the table with a drive manufacturer or two rather than asking random slashdot people .
Especially ACs that do n't care much about karma and ca n't be arsed to register .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Who knows, he just might require a vintage IBM 5100 for an upcoming task in the future.
A hairbrained FTL project just might prove useful afterall.My guess as to what may seem plausible for the current problem is that some undocumented jumper pin setup on an older IDE drive that may yield results.
(Perhaps a config for an external controller instead of on-board?
) But then again its more likely to just thrash the drive, and even if such a direct mode were available it's likely not to be documented anywhere outside of manufacturer testing.
Even if this was the case for a given model, it would take a good while to figure it out and likely ruin a few drives without any insider knowledge.A better bet would be to put some money on the table with a drive manufacturer or two rather than asking random slashdot people.
Especially ACs that don't care much about karma and can't be arsed to register.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343476</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344724</id>
	<title>Re:Tell us your project?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267628340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Nonsense, OP is right.  There is a problem to be solved here, but it's clearly not "how do I write a single bit to a drive" - especially since there is no such thing as a "single bit" on any kind of magnetic drive, even going back to single-density FM floppies.</p><p>The idea of placing the bit "precisely" is also naive when you consider clock variance and mechanical wobble.  What precision is required?  1mm?  1um?</p><p>This Ask would certainly be a lot easier to answer if more details about the raison d'etre existed.</p><p>I suspect he's just playing around for fun, in which case he needs to read a book about FM floppies and the 34-pin interface, buy a 5 1/4" drive and some discs, then get an Arduino and program it to talk to the drive.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Nonsense , OP is right .
There is a problem to be solved here , but it 's clearly not " how do I write a single bit to a drive " - especially since there is no such thing as a " single bit " on any kind of magnetic drive , even going back to single-density FM floppies.The idea of placing the bit " precisely " is also naive when you consider clock variance and mechanical wobble .
What precision is required ?
1mm ? 1um ? This Ask would certainly be a lot easier to answer if more details about the raison d'etre existed.I suspect he 's just playing around for fun , in which case he needs to read a book about FM floppies and the 34-pin interface , buy a 5 1/4 " drive and some discs , then get an Arduino and program it to talk to the drive .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nonsense, OP is right.
There is a problem to be solved here, but it's clearly not "how do I write a single bit to a drive" - especially since there is no such thing as a "single bit" on any kind of magnetic drive, even going back to single-density FM floppies.The idea of placing the bit "precisely" is also naive when you consider clock variance and mechanical wobble.
What precision is required?
1mm?  1um?This Ask would certainly be a lot easier to answer if more details about the raison d'etre existed.I suspect he's just playing around for fun, in which case he needs to read a book about FM floppies and the 34-pin interface, buy a 5 1/4" drive and some discs, then get an Arduino and program it to talk to the drive.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342936</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267616280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Anybody actually does this or is it mostly about using, say, an ARM controller; almost off the shelf?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Anybody actually does this or is it mostly about using , say , an ARM controller ; almost off the shelf ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Anybody actually does this or is it mostly about using, say, an ARM controller; almost off the shelf?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342826</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344062</id>
	<title>Re:A real (but expensive) solution:</title>
	<author>xtracto</author>
	<datestamp>1267624860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I like your reply because it is one of the only to suggest a real sollution.</p><p>In a way, the provided answers show the current technically "watered down" slashdot community. I guess 10 years ago this questions would have given really interesting answers.</p><p>I myself had a similar question about 2 or 3 years ago. What I wanted to do was to use the LCD from an HP laptop for some DIY project. The problem was how to interface VGA RGB output with the propietary input of the LCD (made by samsung IIRC). I did a lot of research, got schematics/specs of the particular LCD I was working for and got into the point where I knew I had to create a RGB-to-something decoder/controller (I just let it go so now I dont remember). I even realized that creating the decoder/controller was a really challenging task (mostly time consuming, time I didn't had) or I could buy a 3rd party controller which was quite expensive.</p><p>Although I have very little knowledge of hard disks, I would suggest the OP to first focus on one specific type of drive, second, get the schematics of the drive controller and then depart from there.</p><p>I specially hate these post crying DRM or whatnot. Even though I "am new here" (see my<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. ID) I really wish I could find a slashdot like page frequented by real tech geeks<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/nerds.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I like your reply because it is one of the only to suggest a real sollution.In a way , the provided answers show the current technically " watered down " slashdot community .
I guess 10 years ago this questions would have given really interesting answers.I myself had a similar question about 2 or 3 years ago .
What I wanted to do was to use the LCD from an HP laptop for some DIY project .
The problem was how to interface VGA RGB output with the propietary input of the LCD ( made by samsung IIRC ) .
I did a lot of research , got schematics/specs of the particular LCD I was working for and got into the point where I knew I had to create a RGB-to-something decoder/controller ( I just let it go so now I dont remember ) .
I even realized that creating the decoder/controller was a really challenging task ( mostly time consuming , time I did n't had ) or I could buy a 3rd party controller which was quite expensive.Although I have very little knowledge of hard disks , I would suggest the OP to first focus on one specific type of drive , second , get the schematics of the drive controller and then depart from there.I specially hate these post crying DRM or whatnot .
Even though I " am new here " ( see my / .
ID ) I really wish I could find a slashdot like page frequented by real tech geeks /nerds .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I like your reply because it is one of the only to suggest a real sollution.In a way, the provided answers show the current technically "watered down" slashdot community.
I guess 10 years ago this questions would have given really interesting answers.I myself had a similar question about 2 or 3 years ago.
What I wanted to do was to use the LCD from an HP laptop for some DIY project.
The problem was how to interface VGA RGB output with the propietary input of the LCD (made by samsung IIRC).
I did a lot of research, got schematics/specs of the particular LCD I was working for and got into the point where I knew I had to create a RGB-to-something decoder/controller (I just let it go so now I dont remember).
I even realized that creating the decoder/controller was a really challenging task (mostly time consuming, time I didn't had) or I could buy a 3rd party controller which was quite expensive.Although I have very little knowledge of hard disks, I would suggest the OP to first focus on one specific type of drive, second, get the schematics of the drive controller and then depart from there.I specially hate these post crying DRM or whatnot.
Even though I "am new here" (see my /.
ID) I really wish I could find a slashdot like page frequented by real tech geeks /nerds.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343474</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31347410</id>
	<title>Requires a lot of research. here is a starting pnt</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267639560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Look up software called victoria or mmhd. Start reading the forums. What you are trying to do is possible but most are right in that you need to bypass the onboard controller using nested int calls. You will need a fair amount of specialized hardware as well and the ability to put the drive in factory test mode. Might want to look into fujitsu as they are a little more loose lipped that lets say, seagate.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Look up software called victoria or mmhd .
Start reading the forums .
What you are trying to do is possible but most are right in that you need to bypass the onboard controller using nested int calls .
You will need a fair amount of specialized hardware as well and the ability to put the drive in factory test mode .
Might want to look into fujitsu as they are a little more loose lipped that lets say , seagate .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Look up software called victoria or mmhd.
Start reading the forums.
What you are trying to do is possible but most are right in that you need to bypass the onboard controller using nested int calls.
You will need a fair amount of specialized hardware as well and the ability to put the drive in factory test mode.
Might want to look into fujitsu as they are a little more loose lipped that lets say, seagate.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343150</id>
	<title>Re:DD</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267618140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hahaha how cute. This high school student thinks he knows something. And smug as we</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hahaha how cute .
This high school student thinks he knows something .
And smug as we</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hahaha how cute.
This high school student thinks he knows something.
And smug as we</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342890</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346170</id>
	<title>Re:Tell us your project?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267634640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>non sequiter</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>non sequiter</tokentext>
<sentencetext>non sequiter</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344026</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344072</id>
	<title>This is really weird...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267624860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why is there so much ill-feeling towards the poster? Technically, what he's asking *must* be doable--though probably very hard--so why not admit that you either don't know how to help him (which is probably true for most people), or point him in the right direction, if you can? Or, if you know for a fact that it can't be done, just calmly explain why.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why is there so much ill-feeling towards the poster ?
Technically , what he 's asking * must * be doable--though probably very hard--so why not admit that you either do n't know how to help him ( which is probably true for most people ) , or point him in the right direction , if you can ?
Or , if you know for a fact that it ca n't be done , just calmly explain why .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why is there so much ill-feeling towards the poster?
Technically, what he's asking *must* be doable--though probably very hard--so why not admit that you either don't know how to help him (which is probably true for most people), or point him in the right direction, if you can?
Or, if you know for a fact that it can't be done, just calmly explain why.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31357466</id>
	<title>Sharks with magnets!</title>
	<author>aqk</author>
	<datestamp>1267715040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Get  one of those sharks with lasers  <br>
Disable the laser. <br>

Strap a frickin' big magnet to the shark's body,<br>
Strap some beefsteak ro your hard disk.<br>
<br>
 -  oh yeah- make sure you're in freshwater, not saltwater! <br>
Saltwater will play havoc with the electronics on board the drive! <br>
Trust me- I KNOW from experience.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Get one of those sharks with lasers Disable the laser .
Strap a frickin ' big magnet to the shark 's body , Strap some beefsteak ro your hard disk .
- oh yeah- make sure you 're in freshwater , not saltwater !
Saltwater will play havoc with the electronics on board the drive !
Trust me- I KNOW from experience .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Get  one of those sharks with lasers  
Disable the laser.
Strap a frickin' big magnet to the shark's body,
Strap some beefsteak ro your hard disk.
-  oh yeah- make sure you're in freshwater, not saltwater!
Saltwater will play havoc with the electronics on board the drive!
Trust me- I KNOW from experience.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346124</id>
	<title>Re:You're doing it wrong!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267634400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is why so many people ask "What are you really trying to accomplish" when presented with vague posts like this.  IF that was what he were trying t accomplish, it'd be MUCH easier (relatively speaking) to ask the drive manufacturer what all the encoding's are, to determine for a given input, what will actually end up on the platter.  Of course, drive manufacturers  hold this type of information very close, and it'd involve much lawyer time, and money to actually get this information.</p><p>The best answer I've seen here is the person who recommended contacting hard-core data recovery companies, like kroll ontrack. They DO have this information, but have very detailed contracts and NDA's in place with drive manufacturers and are simply not able to give out all the information to provide the vague requirements the poster has asked for.  No current hard drive is capable in any way shape or form of doing what the submitter is asking.  You need external, expensive hardware to do it.  Not a disk drive.</p><p>So, I am definitely int he camp of, that the H\_\_L are you REALLY trying to accomplish.  Artwork?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is why so many people ask " What are you really trying to accomplish " when presented with vague posts like this .
IF that was what he were trying t accomplish , it 'd be MUCH easier ( relatively speaking ) to ask the drive manufacturer what all the encoding 's are , to determine for a given input , what will actually end up on the platter .
Of course , drive manufacturers hold this type of information very close , and it 'd involve much lawyer time , and money to actually get this information.The best answer I 've seen here is the person who recommended contacting hard-core data recovery companies , like kroll ontrack .
They DO have this information , but have very detailed contracts and NDA 's in place with drive manufacturers and are simply not able to give out all the information to provide the vague requirements the poster has asked for .
No current hard drive is capable in any way shape or form of doing what the submitter is asking .
You need external , expensive hardware to do it .
Not a disk drive.So , I am definitely int he camp of , that the H \ _ \ _L are you REALLY trying to accomplish .
Artwork ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is why so many people ask "What are you really trying to accomplish" when presented with vague posts like this.
IF that was what he were trying t accomplish, it'd be MUCH easier (relatively speaking) to ask the drive manufacturer what all the encoding's are, to determine for a given input, what will actually end up on the platter.
Of course, drive manufacturers  hold this type of information very close, and it'd involve much lawyer time, and money to actually get this information.The best answer I've seen here is the person who recommended contacting hard-core data recovery companies, like kroll ontrack.
They DO have this information, but have very detailed contracts and NDA's in place with drive manufacturers and are simply not able to give out all the information to provide the vague requirements the poster has asked for.
No current hard drive is capable in any way shape or form of doing what the submitter is asking.
You need external, expensive hardware to do it.
Not a disk drive.So, I am definitely int he camp of, that the H\_\_L are you REALLY trying to accomplish.
Artwork?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343304</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343786</id>
	<title>XKCD: Butterflies</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267623060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><a href="http://xkcd.com/378/" title="xkcd.com" rel="nofollow">http://xkcd.com/378/</a> [xkcd.com]

So problem solved.</htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //xkcd.com/378/ [ xkcd.com ] So problem solved .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://xkcd.com/378/ [xkcd.com]

So problem solved.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345274</id>
	<title>Re:That's nothing!</title>
	<author>sintax0r</author>
	<datestamp>1267630920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>LOL nice one.</htmltext>
<tokenext>LOL nice one .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>LOL nice one.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343348</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346974</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>MoralHazard</author>
	<datestamp>1267637940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...and I am afraid that you misunderstood the original poster. The rest of us seem to agree that he's talking about replacing the existing controller, not "chaining another controller on top", whatever the hell the means. You trolling, or what?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...and I am afraid that you misunderstood the original poster .
The rest of us seem to agree that he 's talking about replacing the existing controller , not " chaining another controller on top " , whatever the hell the means .
You trolling , or what ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...and I am afraid that you misunderstood the original poster.
The rest of us seem to agree that he's talking about replacing the existing controller, not "chaining another controller on top", whatever the hell the means.
You trolling, or what?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343018</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344666</id>
	<title>Side benefit that I forgot to mention...</title>
	<author>aussersterne</author>
	<datestamp>1267628100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Not only does the ST506 interface separate control and data into separate systems (two cables, with actual wires), but the ST506 drive, servo, control, etc. is really easy to work with: very slow circuitry, socketed DIPs, big pins, actual holes through board, lots of wires leading between and to things like the stepper and spindle motors, and you can get at everything (including entire drive disassembly down to magnets and platters) with little more than a computer screwdriver set with a flat head, a philips head, some small torx bits, etc.</p><p>So once you've got a working OS + software + hardware platform up, you also have the freedom with that generation hardware to "edit" the drive in any number of ways by adding your own electronics, etc., with little more than a soldering iron and a leftover box of 74-series logic, if you want to get that basic, and since mainboards of that era have at least two serial ports built in, well...</p><p>Probably given your project you didn't need me to say all this extra, but in case you're not old enough to have ever *seen* an ST506 era hard drive or controller, I thought I'd mention it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Not only does the ST506 interface separate control and data into separate systems ( two cables , with actual wires ) , but the ST506 drive , servo , control , etc .
is really easy to work with : very slow circuitry , socketed DIPs , big pins , actual holes through board , lots of wires leading between and to things like the stepper and spindle motors , and you can get at everything ( including entire drive disassembly down to magnets and platters ) with little more than a computer screwdriver set with a flat head , a philips head , some small torx bits , etc.So once you 've got a working OS + software + hardware platform up , you also have the freedom with that generation hardware to " edit " the drive in any number of ways by adding your own electronics , etc. , with little more than a soldering iron and a leftover box of 74-series logic , if you want to get that basic , and since mainboards of that era have at least two serial ports built in , well...Probably given your project you did n't need me to say all this extra , but in case you 're not old enough to have ever * seen * an ST506 era hard drive or controller , I thought I 'd mention it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not only does the ST506 interface separate control and data into separate systems (two cables, with actual wires), but the ST506 drive, servo, control, etc.
is really easy to work with: very slow circuitry, socketed DIPs, big pins, actual holes through board, lots of wires leading between and to things like the stepper and spindle motors, and you can get at everything (including entire drive disassembly down to magnets and platters) with little more than a computer screwdriver set with a flat head, a philips head, some small torx bits, etc.So once you've got a working OS + software + hardware platform up, you also have the freedom with that generation hardware to "edit" the drive in any number of ways by adding your own electronics, etc., with little more than a soldering iron and a leftover box of 74-series logic, if you want to get that basic, and since mainboards of that era have at least two serial ports built in, well...Probably given your project you didn't need me to say all this extra, but in case you're not old enough to have ever *seen* an ST506 era hard drive or controller, I thought I'd mention it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343172</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31347152</id>
	<title>Anonymous Coward</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267638660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>On modern hard drives its very hard to get down to the platter level. Thats one reason why you can't low level format a hd. Can it be done? Yes. Is it easy? No.</p><p>What it would require is for you to write some assembly code to allow you to talk to the hd's controller chip. It has to be in assembler and not a high level language for the simple reason is that most of them do not allow you to access the hardware directly. The other reason why you would have to use assembly is because Windows will prevent it for the most part as well.</p><p>If you google low level disk access you might find some that might help you out and even give you some code. Any drive you do this on might not work anymore so try it first on a drive you don't care about.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>On modern hard drives its very hard to get down to the platter level .
Thats one reason why you ca n't low level format a hd .
Can it be done ?
Yes. Is it easy ?
No.What it would require is for you to write some assembly code to allow you to talk to the hd 's controller chip .
It has to be in assembler and not a high level language for the simple reason is that most of them do not allow you to access the hardware directly .
The other reason why you would have to use assembly is because Windows will prevent it for the most part as well.If you google low level disk access you might find some that might help you out and even give you some code .
Any drive you do this on might not work anymore so try it first on a drive you do n't care about .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On modern hard drives its very hard to get down to the platter level.
Thats one reason why you can't low level format a hd.
Can it be done?
Yes. Is it easy?
No.What it would require is for you to write some assembly code to allow you to talk to the hd's controller chip.
It has to be in assembler and not a high level language for the simple reason is that most of them do not allow you to access the hardware directly.
The other reason why you would have to use assembly is because Windows will prevent it for the most part as well.If you google low level disk access you might find some that might help you out and even give you some code.
Any drive you do this on might not work anymore so try it first on a drive you don't care about.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346680</id>
	<title>kidcharles is Rube Goldberg?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267636860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Seems like useless requirements.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Seems like useless requirements .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seems like useless requirements.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342874</id>
	<title>Re:How about</title>
	<author>ComaVN</author>
	<datestamp>1267615800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This only skips the file system, not whatever the firmware does.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This only skips the file system , not whatever the firmware does .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This only skips the file system, not whatever the firmware does.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342858</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342940</id>
	<title>Tell us your project?</title>
	<author>marcansoft</author>
	<datestamp>1267616400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>These kinds of questions are stupid: "I need to do XYZ for a project, how do I do XYZ?", where XYZ is one or more of complicated, ridiculous, vague, nonsensical, etc. Try telling us what your project is, and then we might be able to suggest a useful solution, possibly not involving XYZ at all, or involving a very particular/practical version of XYZ.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>These kinds of questions are stupid : " I need to do XYZ for a project , how do I do XYZ ?
" , where XYZ is one or more of complicated , ridiculous , vague , nonsensical , etc .
Try telling us what your project is , and then we might be able to suggest a useful solution , possibly not involving XYZ at all , or involving a very particular/practical version of XYZ .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>These kinds of questions are stupid: "I need to do XYZ for a project, how do I do XYZ?
", where XYZ is one or more of complicated, ridiculous, vague, nonsensical, etc.
Try telling us what your project is, and then we might be able to suggest a useful solution, possibly not involving XYZ at all, or involving a very particular/practical version of XYZ.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345910</id>
	<title>maybe he's an artist</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267633440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>that wants to paint electromagnetic pictures of the Mona Lisa.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>that wants to paint electromagnetic pictures of the Mona Lisa .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>that wants to paint electromagnetic pictures of the Mona Lisa.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343288</id>
	<title>pen?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267619640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>how about taking the hard drive apart and then using a pen to write 1s or 0s exactly where you want them on the platter. To control exactly where these are written you might need some kind of clamp and robot arm but you should be able to get these fairly simply and use open source software to control it</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>how about taking the hard drive apart and then using a pen to write 1s or 0s exactly where you want them on the platter .
To control exactly where these are written you might need some kind of clamp and robot arm but you should be able to get these fairly simply and use open source software to control it</tokentext>
<sentencetext>how about taking the hard drive apart and then using a pen to write 1s or 0s exactly where you want them on the platter.
To control exactly where these are written you might need some kind of clamp and robot arm but you should be able to get these fairly simply and use open source software to control it</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343850</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267623480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>i think there are data recovery tools that let you connect wiring directly to the heads and control them</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>i think there are data recovery tools that let you connect wiring directly to the heads and control them</tokentext>
<sentencetext>i think there are data recovery tools that let you connect wiring directly to the heads and control them</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342826</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344866</id>
	<title>Re:You're doing it wrong!</title>
	<author>B1ackDragon</author>
	<datestamp>1267629060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yeah, my first thought was that perhaps he is trying to test hardware longevity independently of error correction techniques (e.g., how many times on average can a particular bit be flipped before it's reading starts to degrade?) Perhaps even across different manufacturers or drive densities. This seems like it could be useful information to a) people who buy tons of hard drives and want to fine tune their reliability, or b) some enterprising young individual doing a science project, or c) what do I care why he wants to know?<br> <br>

Seriously, why is everyone hating on him so much? Is this not slashdot?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , my first thought was that perhaps he is trying to test hardware longevity independently of error correction techniques ( e.g. , how many times on average can a particular bit be flipped before it 's reading starts to degrade ?
) Perhaps even across different manufacturers or drive densities .
This seems like it could be useful information to a ) people who buy tons of hard drives and want to fine tune their reliability , or b ) some enterprising young individual doing a science project , or c ) what do I care why he wants to know ?
Seriously , why is everyone hating on him so much ?
Is this not slashdot ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, my first thought was that perhaps he is trying to test hardware longevity independently of error correction techniques (e.g., how many times on average can a particular bit be flipped before it's reading starts to degrade?
) Perhaps even across different manufacturers or drive densities.
This seems like it could be useful information to a) people who buy tons of hard drives and want to fine tune their reliability, or b) some enterprising young individual doing a science project, or c) what do I care why he wants to know?
Seriously, why is everyone hating on him so much?
Is this not slashdot?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343304</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343010</id>
	<title>too late?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267617000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><a href="http://xkcd.com/378/" title="xkcd.com" rel="nofollow">http://xkcd.com/378/</a> [xkcd.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //xkcd.com/378/ [ xkcd.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://xkcd.com/378/ [xkcd.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343690</id>
	<title>Bypass the filesystem</title>
	<author>sxrysafis</author>
	<datestamp>1267622520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>So, do you need to write to a specific sector? Or do you have to position the data in a specific *place* on the disk (eg 1 cm from center, 20 rads)?
If it's the first, you only need to bypass the filesystem, so just fopen "/dev/sdX" under Linux, or use CreateFile "\\.\PhysicalDriveX" on Windows,
seek to the position you want, and write away. For the latter, you need to bypass the drive's logic, so you will have to either re-write the firmware,
or implement your own controller board.</htmltext>
<tokenext>So , do you need to write to a specific sector ?
Or do you have to position the data in a specific * place * on the disk ( eg 1 cm from center , 20 rads ) ?
If it 's the first , you only need to bypass the filesystem , so just fopen " /dev/sdX " under Linux , or use CreateFile " \ \ . \ PhysicalDriveX " on Windows , seek to the position you want , and write away .
For the latter , you need to bypass the drive 's logic , so you will have to either re-write the firmware , or implement your own controller board .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So, do you need to write to a specific sector?
Or do you have to position the data in a specific *place* on the disk (eg 1 cm from center, 20 rads)?
If it's the first, you only need to bypass the filesystem, so just fopen "/dev/sdX" under Linux, or use CreateFile "\\.\PhysicalDriveX" on Windows,
seek to the position you want, and write away.
For the latter, you need to bypass the drive's logic, so you will have to either re-write the firmware,
or implement your own controller board.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344598</id>
	<title>Re:If you have to ask, it's hopeless</title>
	<author>clyde\_cadiddlehopper</author>
	<datestamp>1267627680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Next request<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...  "I am working on a project to understand women (or men).  Is there documentation on how to do it?  Obviously a free and open source solution would be preferable, but I'm open to anything at this point."</htmltext>
<tokenext>Next request ... " I am working on a project to understand women ( or men ) .
Is there documentation on how to do it ?
Obviously a free and open source solution would be preferable , but I 'm open to anything at this point .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Next request ...  "I am working on a project to understand women (or men).
Is there documentation on how to do it?
Obviously a free and open source solution would be preferable, but I'm open to anything at this point.
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344368</id>
	<title>Re:Be careful!</title>
	<author>sskinnider</author>
	<datestamp>1267626600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>At 15000 RPM, these things are deadly when they break up.</htmltext>
<tokenext>At 15000 RPM , these things are deadly when they break up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At 15000 RPM, these things are deadly when they break up.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342918</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346360</id>
	<title>Probably an "art" project</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267635360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I bet he wants to draw a picture on the platter and sprinkle some magnetic filings on the platter to see it.<br>Wow I really hope that's not true, I just made myself puke.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I bet he wants to draw a picture on the platter and sprinkle some magnetic filings on the platter to see it.Wow I really hope that 's not true , I just made myself puke .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I bet he wants to draw a picture on the platter and sprinkle some magnetic filings on the platter to see it.Wow I really hope that's not true, I just made myself puke.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342820</id>
	<title>Real Programmers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267615320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><a href="http://xkcd.com/378/" title="xkcd.com" rel="nofollow">Yes!</a> [xkcd.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes !
[ xkcd.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes!
[xkcd.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344538</id>
	<title>Re:Tell us your project?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267627380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Except he doesn't want your alternate solution.  He wants the solution he requested.  If you don't know of a way to do it, then move on.</p></div><p>Alternatively, he doesn't know what he's talking about, maybe some kid with no experience? Whereas stating what the project is, what it needs to do, to several thousand highly skilled and experience people in the same field, is likely to reveal a lot of useful information and suggestions from those that have already been down the road.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Except he does n't want your alternate solution .
He wants the solution he requested .
If you do n't know of a way to do it , then move on.Alternatively , he does n't know what he 's talking about , maybe some kid with no experience ?
Whereas stating what the project is , what it needs to do , to several thousand highly skilled and experience people in the same field , is likely to reveal a lot of useful information and suggestions from those that have already been down the road .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Except he doesn't want your alternate solution.
He wants the solution he requested.
If you don't know of a way to do it, then move on.Alternatively, he doesn't know what he's talking about, maybe some kid with no experience?
Whereas stating what the project is, what it needs to do, to several thousand highly skilled and experience people in the same field, is likely to reveal a lot of useful information and suggestions from those that have already been down the road.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31348948</id>
	<title>Hire Steve Gibson</title>
	<author>LandGator</author>
	<datestamp>1267647120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Steve Gibson can get it done for you.  <a href="http://www.grc.com/" title="grc.com">http://www.grc.com/</a> [grc.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>Steve Gibson can get it done for you .
http : //www.grc.com/ [ grc.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Steve Gibson can get it done for you.
http://www.grc.com/ [grc.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31347864</id>
	<title>For science?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267641900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Here is one reason the OP may want to do this: <a href="http://cua.mit.edu/ketterle\_group/Projects\_2007/Pubs\_07/Boyd2007\%20PRA.pdf" title="mit.edu" rel="nofollow">http://cua.mit.edu/ketterle\_group/Projects\_2007/Pubs\_07/Boyd2007\%20PRA.pdf</a> [mit.edu]  (trapping ultracold atoms using the magnetic field from a hard disk platter).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Here is one reason the OP may want to do this : http : //cua.mit.edu/ketterle \ _group/Projects \ _2007/Pubs \ _07/Boyd2007 \ % 20PRA.pdf [ mit.edu ] ( trapping ultracold atoms using the magnetic field from a hard disk platter ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here is one reason the OP may want to do this: http://cua.mit.edu/ketterle\_group/Projects\_2007/Pubs\_07/Boyd2007\%20PRA.pdf [mit.edu]  (trapping ultracold atoms using the magnetic field from a hard disk platter).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342918</id>
	<title>Be careful!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267616220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I can't help directly, but can give one important advice - careful how you distribute the bits! If too many ones get on the same side of the platter this will destabilize it, causing it to wobble due to the weight difference ( a one weighs quite a bit more than a zero, you know!) and potentially tearing the platter in two!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I ca n't help directly , but can give one important advice - careful how you distribute the bits !
If too many ones get on the same side of the platter this will destabilize it , causing it to wobble due to the weight difference ( a one weighs quite a bit more than a zero , you know !
) and potentially tearing the platter in two !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can't help directly, but can give one important advice - careful how you distribute the bits!
If too many ones get on the same side of the platter this will destabilize it, causing it to wobble due to the weight difference ( a one weighs quite a bit more than a zero, you know!
) and potentially tearing the platter in two!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31351712</id>
	<title>Re:A real (but expensive) solution:</title>
	<author>PhunkySchtuff</author>
	<datestamp>1267616880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>In a way, the provided answers show the current technically "watered down" slashdot community. I guess 10 years ago this questions would have given really interesting answers.</p></div></blockquote><p>In this particular case, the ways in which <b>modern</b> hard drives operate is getting pretty close to magic. There is a lot of smoke and mirrors in a modern hard drive controller and the drive is operating very close to the limits of what is currently possible. Even going back a number of years, writing ones and zeroes to the disk doesn't result in physical N and S magnetic domains that match the bit pattern that you write.</p><p>There needs to be transitions in the signal, which is how the signal clock is recovered, so (for instance with CDs) when you write 8 bits, 14 physical bits are written to the disc (EFM - Eight to Fourteen Modulation) such that even if you write a continuous series of zeroes (or ones) this is not the bit pattern that gets written to the disk.</p><p>This is a fundamental way that hard disks, CDs, floppy disks etc all operate, and it can't be changed and have the equipment operate reliably.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>In a way , the provided answers show the current technically " watered down " slashdot community .
I guess 10 years ago this questions would have given really interesting answers.In this particular case , the ways in which modern hard drives operate is getting pretty close to magic .
There is a lot of smoke and mirrors in a modern hard drive controller and the drive is operating very close to the limits of what is currently possible .
Even going back a number of years , writing ones and zeroes to the disk does n't result in physical N and S magnetic domains that match the bit pattern that you write.There needs to be transitions in the signal , which is how the signal clock is recovered , so ( for instance with CDs ) when you write 8 bits , 14 physical bits are written to the disc ( EFM - Eight to Fourteen Modulation ) such that even if you write a continuous series of zeroes ( or ones ) this is not the bit pattern that gets written to the disk.This is a fundamental way that hard disks , CDs , floppy disks etc all operate , and it ca n't be changed and have the equipment operate reliably .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In a way, the provided answers show the current technically "watered down" slashdot community.
I guess 10 years ago this questions would have given really interesting answers.In this particular case, the ways in which modern hard drives operate is getting pretty close to magic.
There is a lot of smoke and mirrors in a modern hard drive controller and the drive is operating very close to the limits of what is currently possible.
Even going back a number of years, writing ones and zeroes to the disk doesn't result in physical N and S magnetic domains that match the bit pattern that you write.There needs to be transitions in the signal, which is how the signal clock is recovered, so (for instance with CDs) when you write 8 bits, 14 physical bits are written to the disc (EFM - Eight to Fourteen Modulation) such that even if you write a continuous series of zeroes (or ones) this is not the bit pattern that gets written to the disk.This is a fundamental way that hard disks, CDs, floppy disks etc all operate, and it can't be changed and have the equipment operate reliably.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344062</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342904</id>
	<title>Read before write</title>
	<author>deniable</author>
	<datestamp>1267616040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>How are you planning to read the data back? Solve that, then think about writing. As others have said, you'll probably have to build your own drive controller.</htmltext>
<tokenext>How are you planning to read the data back ?
Solve that , then think about writing .
As others have said , you 'll probably have to build your own drive controller .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How are you planning to read the data back?
Solve that, then think about writing.
As others have said, you'll probably have to build your own drive controller.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31357720</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>nerdbert</author>
	<datestamp>1267716660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Nobody in the drive industry has built a stand-alone controller for the last 8 years (longer in some cases). These days all the controllers are integrated into SoCs that consist of the controller, the read channel, SATA (these days), and memory controller. You can't chain controllers nor easily overwrite the ROM code for them.</p><p>Further, the software required to control the read channel part of the SoC is very difficult to write, so even if you could manage to get to the controller knowing what to control to get a proper write is very difficult without documentation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Nobody in the drive industry has built a stand-alone controller for the last 8 years ( longer in some cases ) .
These days all the controllers are integrated into SoCs that consist of the controller , the read channel , SATA ( these days ) , and memory controller .
You ca n't chain controllers nor easily overwrite the ROM code for them.Further , the software required to control the read channel part of the SoC is very difficult to write , so even if you could manage to get to the controller knowing what to control to get a proper write is very difficult without documentation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nobody in the drive industry has built a stand-alone controller for the last 8 years (longer in some cases).
These days all the controllers are integrated into SoCs that consist of the controller, the read channel, SATA (these days), and memory controller.
You can't chain controllers nor easily overwrite the ROM code for them.Further, the software required to control the read channel part of the SoC is very difficult to write, so even if you could manage to get to the controller knowing what to control to get a proper write is very difficult without documentation.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343018</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346854</id>
	<title>reverse?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267637520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>maybe get a new "empty" (possible?) harddrive and do some "test" writing on it.<br>i'm sure there's a way to acctually see where the data has been writen to on the<br>disk (defrag seem to know?).<br>erase the disk to "empty" again (possible?) and repeat.<br>i'm sure this way you can figure out what the black-box inbetween the OS and the physical<br>magnetic disk is doing. once you figure this out you'll just have to "cheat" your way thru the<br>not-so-black-anymore-box to get those ONeS and ZeROeS in the order you want on the disk<nobr> <wbr></nobr>....?<br>(50\% tongue in cheek)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>maybe get a new " empty " ( possible ?
) harddrive and do some " test " writing on it.i 'm sure there 's a way to acctually see where the data has been writen to on thedisk ( defrag seem to know ?
) .erase the disk to " empty " again ( possible ?
) and repeat.i 'm sure this way you can figure out what the black-box inbetween the OS and the physicalmagnetic disk is doing .
once you figure this out you 'll just have to " cheat " your way thru thenot-so-black-anymore-box to get those ONeS and ZeROeS in the order you want on the disk .... ?
( 50 \ % tongue in cheek )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>maybe get a new "empty" (possible?
) harddrive and do some "test" writing on it.i'm sure there's a way to acctually see where the data has been writen to on thedisk (defrag seem to know?
).erase the disk to "empty" again (possible?
) and repeat.i'm sure this way you can figure out what the black-box inbetween the OS and the physicalmagnetic disk is doing.
once you figure this out you'll just have to "cheat" your way thru thenot-so-black-anymore-box to get those ONeS and ZeROeS in the order you want on the disk ....?
(50\% tongue in cheek)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345808</id>
	<title>Not Doable</title>
	<author>Toad-san</author>
	<datestamp>1267632960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Even the very oldest hard drives didn't have physical control of exactly where data was written.  Oh, they laid out x sectors on y tracks, and you could maybe measure where track 0 was and where track y was on the platter itself (by marking the actual head position), and determine the physical location of those tracks.</p><p>But the starting sector?  Purely arbitrary: CPU or disk controller said "now", there was sector 0, and all the other sectors followed (the length of sectors being determined by the number of sectors).</p><p>Now, you \_can\_ possibly locate where sector 0 begins (I visualize a tiny spray gun electronically controlled to fire when track 0, sector 0, bit 0 is read).  But I don't envy you that job.  (Ever try physically modifying the read/write heads of a hard drive?  No, I didn't think so.)</p><p>Again, with the older drives (especially the washing machine sized drives back in The Day), you could do physical stuff.  Hell, I had an old 25MB hard drive that wouldn't start sometimes.  But it had a flywheel (really) accessible between the control board and the drive case, and I could reach in with the eraser end of a pencil and "spin it up".  I called it "kickstarting the hard drive", used to amuse hell out of visitors).</p><p>None of the new highly compact hard drives will let you do that sort of physical stuff.  And they certainly aren't accessible to external CPU control: way too much (as said above) is done on the controller board.</p><p>So good luck to you.  I'd give it up if I were you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Even the very oldest hard drives did n't have physical control of exactly where data was written .
Oh , they laid out x sectors on y tracks , and you could maybe measure where track 0 was and where track y was on the platter itself ( by marking the actual head position ) , and determine the physical location of those tracks.But the starting sector ?
Purely arbitrary : CPU or disk controller said " now " , there was sector 0 , and all the other sectors followed ( the length of sectors being determined by the number of sectors ) .Now , you \ _can \ _ possibly locate where sector 0 begins ( I visualize a tiny spray gun electronically controlled to fire when track 0 , sector 0 , bit 0 is read ) .
But I do n't envy you that job .
( Ever try physically modifying the read/write heads of a hard drive ?
No , I did n't think so .
) Again , with the older drives ( especially the washing machine sized drives back in The Day ) , you could do physical stuff .
Hell , I had an old 25MB hard drive that would n't start sometimes .
But it had a flywheel ( really ) accessible between the control board and the drive case , and I could reach in with the eraser end of a pencil and " spin it up " .
I called it " kickstarting the hard drive " , used to amuse hell out of visitors ) .None of the new highly compact hard drives will let you do that sort of physical stuff .
And they certainly are n't accessible to external CPU control : way too much ( as said above ) is done on the controller board.So good luck to you .
I 'd give it up if I were you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Even the very oldest hard drives didn't have physical control of exactly where data was written.
Oh, they laid out x sectors on y tracks, and you could maybe measure where track 0 was and where track y was on the platter itself (by marking the actual head position), and determine the physical location of those tracks.But the starting sector?
Purely arbitrary: CPU or disk controller said "now", there was sector 0, and all the other sectors followed (the length of sectors being determined by the number of sectors).Now, you \_can\_ possibly locate where sector 0 begins (I visualize a tiny spray gun electronically controlled to fire when track 0, sector 0, bit 0 is read).
But I don't envy you that job.
(Ever try physically modifying the read/write heads of a hard drive?
No, I didn't think so.
)Again, with the older drives (especially the washing machine sized drives back in The Day), you could do physical stuff.
Hell, I had an old 25MB hard drive that wouldn't start sometimes.
But it had a flywheel (really) accessible between the control board and the drive case, and I could reach in with the eraser end of a pencil and "spin it up".
I called it "kickstarting the hard drive", used to amuse hell out of visitors).None of the new highly compact hard drives will let you do that sort of physical stuff.
And they certainly aren't accessible to external CPU control: way too much (as said above) is done on the controller board.So good luck to you.
I'd give it up if I were you.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342830</id>
	<title>man dd</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267615380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>(nt)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>( nt )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>(nt)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31357836</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>amn108</author>
	<datestamp>1267717500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is the most useful answer I have read on this whole discussion.<br>It solves the asked question in the most acceptable manner (within the constraints defined in the question).</p><p>Indeed, old drives do not have onboard controllers, and so there is no logic to override.</p><p>However, I would say one perhaps would still need some sort of controller to actually write the data to the drive, and then we are back to the part of problem - can one override this particular controller behavior, throwing out error correction, data distribution algorithms, etc?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is the most useful answer I have read on this whole discussion.It solves the asked question in the most acceptable manner ( within the constraints defined in the question ) .Indeed , old drives do not have onboard controllers , and so there is no logic to override.However , I would say one perhaps would still need some sort of controller to actually write the data to the drive , and then we are back to the part of problem - can one override this particular controller behavior , throwing out error correction , data distribution algorithms , etc ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is the most useful answer I have read on this whole discussion.It solves the asked question in the most acceptable manner (within the constraints defined in the question).Indeed, old drives do not have onboard controllers, and so there is no logic to override.However, I would say one perhaps would still need some sort of controller to actually write the data to the drive, and then we are back to the part of problem - can one override this particular controller behavior, throwing out error correction, data distribution algorithms, etc?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343032</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343562</id>
	<title>Really? Do NONE of us read?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267621680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>No less then *7* posts to the SAME XKCD COMIC?!? Christ, bad enough people don't RTFA, at LEAST read the fine comments!</htmltext>
<tokenext>No less then * 7 * posts to the SAME XKCD COMIC ? ! ?
Christ , bad enough people do n't RTFA , at LEAST read the fine comments !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No less then *7* posts to the SAME XKCD COMIC?!?
Christ, bad enough people don't RTFA, at LEAST read the fine comments!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346014</id>
	<title>Re:Are you sure that's your requirement?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267633860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>One merely needs to counteract the Higgs field with vacuum energy to enable superliminal travel.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>One merely needs to counteract the Higgs field with vacuum energy to enable superliminal travel .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One merely needs to counteract the Higgs field with vacuum energy to enable superliminal travel.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343476</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345568</id>
	<title>Re:Really? Do NONE of us read?</title>
	<author>godrik</author>
	<datestamp>1267632060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You mean this one ? <a href="http://xkcd.com/378/" title="xkcd.com">http://xkcd.com/378/</a> [xkcd.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You mean this one ?
http : //xkcd.com/378/ [ xkcd.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You mean this one ?
http://xkcd.com/378/ [xkcd.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343562</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343926</id>
	<title>Re:If you have to ask, it's hopeless</title>
	<author>SkipF</author>
	<datestamp>1267623960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You want the book, "Science Made Stupid"
<a href="http://www.amazon.com/Science-Made-Stupid-Tom-Weller/dp/0395366461" title="amazon.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/Science-Made-Stupid-Tom-Weller/dp/0395366461</a> [amazon.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>You want the book , " Science Made Stupid " http : //www.amazon.com/Science-Made-Stupid-Tom-Weller/dp/0395366461 [ amazon.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You want the book, "Science Made Stupid"
http://www.amazon.com/Science-Made-Stupid-Tom-Weller/dp/0395366461 [amazon.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345498</id>
	<title>Re:Tell us your project?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267631880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Perhaps it's not the request that is stupid, but you who are stupid.</p><p>There can be a very valid reason for wanting to write the specific bits at specific locations on the HDD platter.  It's most likely that you are just too simple-minded to comprehend them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Perhaps it 's not the request that is stupid , but you who are stupid.There can be a very valid reason for wanting to write the specific bits at specific locations on the HDD platter .
It 's most likely that you are just too simple-minded to comprehend them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Perhaps it's not the request that is stupid, but you who are stupid.There can be a very valid reason for wanting to write the specific bits at specific locations on the HDD platter.
It's most likely that you are just too simple-minded to comprehend them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344026</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346942</id>
	<title>Re:You're doing it wrong!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267637880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>And if he's trying to see if he can read data patterns off platters by hand from a dismantled drive, and needs a known test pattern to calibrate his equipment with?</p></div><p>Then he's trying to re-create, from scratch, the accumulated knowledge of hard drive restoration. And his research involves asking Slashdot for advice instead of talking to people who know what they're doing, which doesn't bode well for his chances.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>And if he 's trying to see if he can read data patterns off platters by hand from a dismantled drive , and needs a known test pattern to calibrate his equipment with ? Then he 's trying to re-create , from scratch , the accumulated knowledge of hard drive restoration .
And his research involves asking Slashdot for advice instead of talking to people who know what they 're doing , which does n't bode well for his chances .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And if he's trying to see if he can read data patterns off platters by hand from a dismantled drive, and needs a known test pattern to calibrate his equipment with?Then he's trying to re-create, from scratch, the accumulated knowledge of hard drive restoration.
And his research involves asking Slashdot for advice instead of talking to people who know what they're doing, which doesn't bode well for his chances.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343304</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344224</id>
	<title>Technical Limitations</title>
	<author>kenp2002</author>
	<datestamp>1267625820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Since the absolute addressing of physical mapping is handled by the drive controller I doubt a manufacturer is going to allow anyone to get direct control of the hard disk.</p><p>The issue is if a user space application could do so they could write persistent viruses into the sector reallocation reserve space and no OS could remove that data unless the OS also had access to that space and\or a sector gets reallocated into that space wiping the content.</p><p>In addition due to rotational issues you would need to first pre-determine an arbitarary starting point on each platter, write a pattern to identify that and build a custom sector mapping. You have to remember that due to sector remapping sequentially mapped sectors may not in fact be "next" to one another on the hard disk.</p><p>You are trying to pin the tail on a doney travelling at over 7200 RPM which is no small feat.</p><p>You could try building your own custom firmware for the disk controller but I am certain that disk manufactures have specialized firmware and disk options for, shall we say, less then normal buyers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Since the absolute addressing of physical mapping is handled by the drive controller I doubt a manufacturer is going to allow anyone to get direct control of the hard disk.The issue is if a user space application could do so they could write persistent viruses into the sector reallocation reserve space and no OS could remove that data unless the OS also had access to that space and \ or a sector gets reallocated into that space wiping the content.In addition due to rotational issues you would need to first pre-determine an arbitarary starting point on each platter , write a pattern to identify that and build a custom sector mapping .
You have to remember that due to sector remapping sequentially mapped sectors may not in fact be " next " to one another on the hard disk.You are trying to pin the tail on a doney travelling at over 7200 RPM which is no small feat.You could try building your own custom firmware for the disk controller but I am certain that disk manufactures have specialized firmware and disk options for , shall we say , less then normal buyers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Since the absolute addressing of physical mapping is handled by the drive controller I doubt a manufacturer is going to allow anyone to get direct control of the hard disk.The issue is if a user space application could do so they could write persistent viruses into the sector reallocation reserve space and no OS could remove that data unless the OS also had access to that space and\or a sector gets reallocated into that space wiping the content.In addition due to rotational issues you would need to first pre-determine an arbitarary starting point on each platter, write a pattern to identify that and build a custom sector mapping.
You have to remember that due to sector remapping sequentially mapped sectors may not in fact be "next" to one another on the hard disk.You are trying to pin the tail on a doney travelling at over 7200 RPM which is no small feat.You could try building your own custom firmware for the disk controller but I am certain that disk manufactures have specialized firmware and disk options for, shall we say, less then normal buyers.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345242</id>
	<title>If it's a research / school project...</title>
	<author>wideBlueSkies</author>
	<datestamp>1267630800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>... just do it in software. Meaning, code up a drive interface in C/C++<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... make it look like system calls to a physical drive, but behind the scenes said code would just write to a big pre-allocated 'drive file' sitting in your comp's filesystem.</p><p>I'm sure there's a bunch of ways to implement this, and problems to solve for sure. But it's probably less effort then overriding the error correction, etc, of modern HD's.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>... just do it in software .
Meaning , code up a drive interface in C/C + + ... make it look like system calls to a physical drive , but behind the scenes said code would just write to a big pre-allocated 'drive file ' sitting in your comp 's filesystem.I 'm sure there 's a bunch of ways to implement this , and problems to solve for sure .
But it 's probably less effort then overriding the error correction , etc , of modern HD 's .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... just do it in software.
Meaning, code up a drive interface in C/C++ ... make it look like system calls to a physical drive, but behind the scenes said code would just write to a big pre-allocated 'drive file' sitting in your comp's filesystem.I'm sure there's a bunch of ways to implement this, and problems to solve for sure.
But it's probably less effort then overriding the error correction, etc, of modern HD's.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343662</id>
	<title>My First Hard Drive</title>
	<author>bigtallmofo</author>
	<datestamp>1267622280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>My first hard drive was a 40 MB Seagate ST-251 MFM hard drive.  I almost got the ST-225 when I was buying the parts for my first IBM-compat from JDR Microdevices.<br>
<br>
I'm still very thankful that I didn't go with my alternate plan of getting the Lt. Kernel 20 MB hard drive for my Commodore 128.  I imagine I wouldn't quite have the career I have today had I gone in that direction.</htmltext>
<tokenext>My first hard drive was a 40 MB Seagate ST-251 MFM hard drive .
I almost got the ST-225 when I was buying the parts for my first IBM-compat from JDR Microdevices .
I 'm still very thankful that I did n't go with my alternate plan of getting the Lt. Kernel 20 MB hard drive for my Commodore 128 .
I imagine I would n't quite have the career I have today had I gone in that direction .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My first hard drive was a 40 MB Seagate ST-251 MFM hard drive.
I almost got the ST-225 when I was buying the parts for my first IBM-compat from JDR Microdevices.
I'm still very thankful that I didn't go with my alternate plan of getting the Lt. Kernel 20 MB hard drive for my Commodore 128.
I imagine I wouldn't quite have the career I have today had I gone in that direction.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343032</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342980</id>
	<title>Old IDE drives</title>
	<author>AC-x</author>
	<datestamp>1267616700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Can you tell us what it's for, or is it secret? I assume whatever you're up to involves the destruction of the HD in question?</p><p>If you can find a working *very old* IDE drive (back from the era when they had bad blocks printed on the label that you had to map manually) I'd guess those use purely physical sector / block mapping.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Can you tell us what it 's for , or is it secret ?
I assume whatever you 're up to involves the destruction of the HD in question ? If you can find a working * very old * IDE drive ( back from the era when they had bad blocks printed on the label that you had to map manually ) I 'd guess those use purely physical sector / block mapping .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Can you tell us what it's for, or is it secret?
I assume whatever you're up to involves the destruction of the HD in question?If you can find a working *very old* IDE drive (back from the era when they had bad blocks printed on the label that you had to map manually) I'd guess those use purely physical sector / block mapping.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346038</id>
	<title>Virtual Disk File</title>
	<author>stlthVector</author>
	<datestamp>1267633980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Have you considered writing to a virtual disk file of some kind?  You could create your own "disk" file and write to it any way you want.  You just need to create your own virtual controller and disk format - though you could probably come up with some open source tools from something like Xen or Bochs to help you.</p><p>I don't know that this would be easier but it may not be harder and it could be free.  If you do manage to get it to work this way you'll have the advantage of not being locked down to any specific hardware.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Have you considered writing to a virtual disk file of some kind ?
You could create your own " disk " file and write to it any way you want .
You just need to create your own virtual controller and disk format - though you could probably come up with some open source tools from something like Xen or Bochs to help you.I do n't know that this would be easier but it may not be harder and it could be free .
If you do manage to get it to work this way you 'll have the advantage of not being locked down to any specific hardware .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Have you considered writing to a virtual disk file of some kind?
You could create your own "disk" file and write to it any way you want.
You just need to create your own virtual controller and disk format - though you could probably come up with some open source tools from something like Xen or Bochs to help you.I don't know that this would be easier but it may not be harder and it could be free.
If you do manage to get it to work this way you'll have the advantage of not being locked down to any specific hardware.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31351742</id>
	<title>dd</title>
	<author>JeffSchwab</author>
	<datestamp>1267617000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>1) You want logical locations, not physical locations.  I promise.</p><p>2) On Unix-like systems, you can open the device node, and seek directly to the locations of your choice.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; int const fd = open("/dev/sda", O\_RDWR);</p><p>3) If you have a predetermined image you want to slam onto the disk, use dd.  Depending on what else you want to do, other command line programs may also be useful.  For example:</p><p>~$ uname<br>Darwin<br>~$ sudo hexdump -n 600<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/dev/disk0<br>0000000 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00<br>*<br>00001b0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 38 2d 00 00 00 00 00 fe<br>00001c0 ff ff ee fe ff ff 01 00 00 00 2f 60 38 3a 00 00<br>00001d0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00<br>*<br>00001f0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 55 aa<br>0000200 45 46 49 20 50 41 52 54 00 00 01 00 5c 00 00 00<br>0000210 ab 81 40 18 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00<br>0000220 2f 60 38 3a 00 00 00 00 22 00 00 00 00 00 00 00<br>0000230 0e 60 38 3a 00 00 00 00 48 75 00 00 de 3e 00 00<br>0000240 fa 0c 00 00 7d 31 00 00 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00<br>0000250 80 00 00 00 80 00 00 00<br>0000258<br>~$</p><p>Good luck.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>1 ) You want logical locations , not physical locations .
I promise.2 ) On Unix-like systems , you can open the device node , and seek directly to the locations of your choice .
        int const fd = open ( " /dev/sda " , O \ _RDWR ) ; 3 ) If you have a predetermined image you want to slam onto the disk , use dd .
Depending on what else you want to do , other command line programs may also be useful .
For example : ~ $ unameDarwin ~ $ sudo hexdump -n 600 /dev/disk00000000 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 * 00001b0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 38 2d 00 00 00 00 00 fe00001c0 ff ff ee fe ff ff 01 00 00 00 2f 60 38 3a 00 0000001d0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 * 00001f0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 55 aa0000200 45 46 49 20 50 41 52 54 00 00 01 00 5c 00 00 000000210 ab 81 40 18 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 000000220 2f 60 38 3a 00 00 00 00 22 00 00 00 00 00 00 000000230 0e 60 38 3a 00 00 00 00 48 75 00 00 de 3e 00 000000240 fa 0c 00 00 7d 31 00 00 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 000000250 80 00 00 00 80 00 00 000000258 ~ $ Good luck .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>1) You want logical locations, not physical locations.
I promise.2) On Unix-like systems, you can open the device node, and seek directly to the locations of your choice.
        int const fd = open("/dev/sda", O\_RDWR);3) If you have a predetermined image you want to slam onto the disk, use dd.
Depending on what else you want to do, other command line programs may also be useful.
For example:~$ unameDarwin~$ sudo hexdump -n 600 /dev/disk00000000 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00*00001b0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 38 2d 00 00 00 00 00 fe00001c0 ff ff ee fe ff ff 01 00 00 00 2f 60 38 3a 00 0000001d0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00*00001f0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 55 aa0000200 45 46 49 20 50 41 52 54 00 00 01 00 5c 00 00 000000210 ab 81 40 18 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 000000220 2f 60 38 3a 00 00 00 00 22 00 00 00 00 00 00 000000230 0e 60 38 3a 00 00 00 00 48 75 00 00 de 3e 00 000000240 fa 0c 00 00 7d 31 00 00 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 000000250 80 00 00 00 80 00 00 000000258~$Good luck.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31355454</id>
	<title>Self servo-write</title>
	<author>OffTheWallSoccer</author>
	<datestamp>1267735740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>When I left Quantum a decade ago, they had already begun developing the technology for hard drives to write their own servo tracks.</htmltext>
<tokenext>When I left Quantum a decade ago , they had already begun developing the technology for hard drives to write their own servo tracks .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I left Quantum a decade ago, they had already begun developing the technology for hard drives to write their own servo tracks.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344156</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345072</id>
	<title>Re:Tell us your project?</title>
	<author>Mashdar</author>
	<datestamp>1267629900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>nobody has the solution he requested, because the solution he requested is stupid.</p></div><p>Amen.<br> <br>

There is no advantage in the world to writing a specific bit to a specific location, when physical locations are already mapped byte-wise to an address space. Oh, you several single-bit data to write? Use XOR and do it like anyone who ever had to set/clear flags on a micro-controller does. And if this causes you to have to cache (gasp) seven bits of data waiting for the eighth, GOOD.<br> <br>

PS I doubt that there is a GP processor on the planet which does bit wise operations with a single-bit register. Maybe if you have a very weak computer from 1950...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>nobody has the solution he requested , because the solution he requested is stupid.Amen .
There is no advantage in the world to writing a specific bit to a specific location , when physical locations are already mapped byte-wise to an address space .
Oh , you several single-bit data to write ?
Use XOR and do it like anyone who ever had to set/clear flags on a micro-controller does .
And if this causes you to have to cache ( gasp ) seven bits of data waiting for the eighth , GOOD .
PS I doubt that there is a GP processor on the planet which does bit wise operations with a single-bit register .
Maybe if you have a very weak computer from 1950.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>nobody has the solution he requested, because the solution he requested is stupid.Amen.
There is no advantage in the world to writing a specific bit to a specific location, when physical locations are already mapped byte-wise to an address space.
Oh, you several single-bit data to write?
Use XOR and do it like anyone who ever had to set/clear flags on a micro-controller does.
And if this causes you to have to cache (gasp) seven bits of data waiting for the eighth, GOOD.
PS I doubt that there is a GP processor on the planet which does bit wise operations with a single-bit register.
Maybe if you have a very weak computer from 1950...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344026</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344464</id>
	<title>inadequate hardware</title>
	<author>TheSHAD0W</author>
	<datestamp>1267627080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>With the technologies currently used for self-timing data writes on hard drives, it's likely that no hard drive spindle motor will maintain a perfect rotation rate, making your job even more difficult.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>With the technologies currently used for self-timing data writes on hard drives , it 's likely that no hard drive spindle motor will maintain a perfect rotation rate , making your job even more difficult .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>With the technologies currently used for self-timing data writes on hard drives, it's likely that no hard drive spindle motor will maintain a perfect rotation rate, making your job even more difficult.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31355784</id>
	<title>Re:Be careful!</title>
	<author>jokkebk</author>
	<datestamp>1267696560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Your story, sir, is just not plausible. You really had me going with the monastery stuff (monks need their ones and zeroes), but everyone knows printed zeroes weigh more than ones. See: 0, 1!<br><br>OTOH: On a hard drive, it's all digital so ones and zeroes generally have the same weight, the difference comes whether they are just random noise or contain valuable information - for example the entire library of congress stacked on one platter would need to be padded out with proper amount of useless stuff like slashdot comments and lolcats. This is consequently also why writing ones and zeros directly to the platter without having a hard drive controller circuitry handling error correction and lolcats is a really bad idea.<br><br>It all makes sense when you really think of it!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Your story , sir , is just not plausible .
You really had me going with the monastery stuff ( monks need their ones and zeroes ) , but everyone knows printed zeroes weigh more than ones .
See : 0 , 1 ! OTOH : On a hard drive , it 's all digital so ones and zeroes generally have the same weight , the difference comes whether they are just random noise or contain valuable information - for example the entire library of congress stacked on one platter would need to be padded out with proper amount of useless stuff like slashdot comments and lolcats .
This is consequently also why writing ones and zeros directly to the platter without having a hard drive controller circuitry handling error correction and lolcats is a really bad idea.It all makes sense when you really think of it !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Your story, sir, is just not plausible.
You really had me going with the monastery stuff (monks need their ones and zeroes), but everyone knows printed zeroes weigh more than ones.
See: 0, 1!OTOH: On a hard drive, it's all digital so ones and zeroes generally have the same weight, the difference comes whether they are just random noise or contain valuable information - for example the entire library of congress stacked on one platter would need to be padded out with proper amount of useless stuff like slashdot comments and lolcats.
This is consequently also why writing ones and zeros directly to the platter without having a hard drive controller circuitry handling error correction and lolcats is a really bad idea.It all makes sense when you really think of it!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343182</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344326</id>
	<title>Re:You're doing it wrong!</title>
	<author>SirLoadALot</author>
	<datestamp>1267626420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are companies that do this professionally.  It generally requires a clean room, although perhaps not as good as one required for other purposes.  Also, if he has the equipment to read a platter himself (which I strongly doubt), writing should be just one more step -- mounting a write head.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are companies that do this professionally .
It generally requires a clean room , although perhaps not as good as one required for other purposes .
Also , if he has the equipment to read a platter himself ( which I strongly doubt ) , writing should be just one more step -- mounting a write head .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are companies that do this professionally.
It generally requires a clean room, although perhaps not as good as one required for other purposes.
Also, if he has the equipment to read a platter himself (which I strongly doubt), writing should be just one more step -- mounting a write head.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343304</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343348</id>
	<title>That's nothing!</title>
	<author>L4t3r4lu5</author>
	<datestamp>1267620180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm working on a project that requires writing <b>protons</b> to an <b>atom nucleus</b> in a completely controlled fashion. I need to be able to control exactly where <b>protons</b> will appear physically on the <b>nucleus</b>. Normally when <b>atoms</b> are <b>created during fusion</b> the actual <b>atoms</b> that get created are determined by the <b>energy input of the fusion reaction</b> as modified by whatever kind of <b>atoms are being fused</b> (e.g. <b>hydrogen into helium</b>). All of the modern innovations in <b>nucleosynthesis</b> and <b>alchemy</b> are great for <b>particle colliders</b> and <b>crackpots from the Middle Ages</b>, but they are making my particular task quite daunting. My question for Slashdot: is there a way to get down to the 'bare metal' and <b>transmute lead into gold in a cost-effective manner</b>? Any good utilities out there to do this? Obviously a free and open source solution would be preferable, but I'm open to anything at this point.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm working on a project that requires writing protons to an atom nucleus in a completely controlled fashion .
I need to be able to control exactly where protons will appear physically on the nucleus .
Normally when atoms are created during fusion the actual atoms that get created are determined by the energy input of the fusion reaction as modified by whatever kind of atoms are being fused ( e.g .
hydrogen into helium ) .
All of the modern innovations in nucleosynthesis and alchemy are great for particle colliders and crackpots from the Middle Ages , but they are making my particular task quite daunting .
My question for Slashdot : is there a way to get down to the 'bare metal ' and transmute lead into gold in a cost-effective manner ?
Any good utilities out there to do this ?
Obviously a free and open source solution would be preferable , but I 'm open to anything at this point .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm working on a project that requires writing protons to an atom nucleus in a completely controlled fashion.
I need to be able to control exactly where protons will appear physically on the nucleus.
Normally when atoms are created during fusion the actual atoms that get created are determined by the energy input of the fusion reaction as modified by whatever kind of atoms are being fused (e.g.
hydrogen into helium).
All of the modern innovations in nucleosynthesis and alchemy are great for particle colliders and crackpots from the Middle Ages, but they are making my particular task quite daunting.
My question for Slashdot: is there a way to get down to the 'bare metal' and transmute lead into gold in a cost-effective manner?
Any good utilities out there to do this?
Obviously a free and open source solution would be preferable, but I'm open to anything at this point.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346766</id>
	<title>Re:No.</title>
	<author>number11</author>
	<datestamp>1267637220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>You would need to completely bypass the drive firmware in a way that would make the drive quite unusable afterwards</i></p><p>"Afterwards" wasn't part of the spec.  He just wants to <b>write</b> the 1s and 0s.  <b>Reading</b> them wasn't part of the spec that he gave us.</p><p>Seriously, if he just wanted to use a HD for data storage and retrieval, he already knows how to do that. Maybe he just wants a magnetic platter decorated with his logo printed in magnetic domains, a la lightscribe.  Or something entirely different.  Since he didn't tell us, but yet wants to do something so unusual, we can't make assumptions.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You would need to completely bypass the drive firmware in a way that would make the drive quite unusable afterwards " Afterwards " was n't part of the spec .
He just wants to write the 1s and 0s .
Reading them was n't part of the spec that he gave us.Seriously , if he just wanted to use a HD for data storage and retrieval , he already knows how to do that .
Maybe he just wants a magnetic platter decorated with his logo printed in magnetic domains , a la lightscribe .
Or something entirely different .
Since he did n't tell us , but yet wants to do something so unusual , we ca n't make assumptions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You would need to completely bypass the drive firmware in a way that would make the drive quite unusable afterwards"Afterwards" wasn't part of the spec.
He just wants to write the 1s and 0s.
Reading them wasn't part of the spec that he gave us.Seriously, if he just wanted to use a HD for data storage and retrieval, he already knows how to do that.
Maybe he just wants a magnetic platter decorated with his logo printed in magnetic domains, a la lightscribe.
Or something entirely different.
Since he didn't tell us, but yet wants to do something so unusual, we can't make assumptions.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342840</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31347730</id>
	<title>what about floppy?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267641120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Can you do it in floppy disk?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Can you do it in floppy disk ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Can you do it in floppy disk?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346696</id>
	<title>Why ask us if you already know the answer?</title>
	<author>mcmonkey</author>
	<datestamp>1267636860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Remember this next time you are struggling getting requirements out of a non-technical manager or user.  The submitter obviously has the technical background, but is making a common mistake.</p><p>What is it you want to do?  "I want to write bits directly..."</p><p>Really?  That's your final goal?  Just to write bits?  No, there's some other task you want to complete, and you've determined the best way to complete that task is to write bits directly to the platter.</p><p>But if you can't write bits directly to the platter, or you don't know what additional issues may arise when you do so, how can you determine that is the best course to take?</p><p>So slow down, back up a step, let us know what your real goal is.  You want X, and you think the best way to X is to write bits to the platter.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Remember this next time you are struggling getting requirements out of a non-technical manager or user .
The submitter obviously has the technical background , but is making a common mistake.What is it you want to do ?
" I want to write bits directly... " Really ?
That 's your final goal ?
Just to write bits ?
No , there 's some other task you want to complete , and you 've determined the best way to complete that task is to write bits directly to the platter.But if you ca n't write bits directly to the platter , or you do n't know what additional issues may arise when you do so , how can you determine that is the best course to take ? So slow down , back up a step , let us know what your real goal is .
You want X , and you think the best way to X is to write bits to the platter .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Remember this next time you are struggling getting requirements out of a non-technical manager or user.
The submitter obviously has the technical background, but is making a common mistake.What is it you want to do?
"I want to write bits directly..."Really?
That's your final goal?
Just to write bits?
No, there's some other task you want to complete, and you've determined the best way to complete that task is to write bits directly to the platter.But if you can't write bits directly to the platter, or you don't know what additional issues may arise when you do so, how can you determine that is the best course to take?So slow down, back up a step, let us know what your real goal is.
You want X, and you think the best way to X is to write bits to the platter.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343842</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>Jim Hall</author>
	<datestamp>1267623480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>A whole chip? Really? That sounds hard.

Just Ebay an old 20MB Seagate ST-225 MFM drive, and write whatever bits you want.

It doesn't know any better.</p></div><p>Or, the submitter could contact Seagate or another drive manufacturer and ask what it would take to get a drive with special firmware that let him write 1's and 0's directly to the drive wherever he wanted. Basically, remove the intelligence on the drive.</p><p>It's not that impossible for drive manufacturers to do things like this for you, if you have the $$ to pay for it. I don't know what the cost would be, especially since he's really only [probably] looking for a few drives for this project. If it's grant-funded research, the grant would pay for it. If it's an independent project of some kind, he's in for a surprise.</p><p>I took a behind-doors tour of a major drive manufacturer a few years ago. During our visit, we were able to visit with engineers - one of whom was head of the firmware engineering team. He told us lots of stories about the firmware requests they've fulfilled. One example was a customer who supported lots of old PBX systems. These PBX systems ran software from a hard drive, but due to the age the system only supported drives up to (around) 200MB. Nobody made drives that small anymore, so this drive manufacturer re-wrote the firmware for them ($$) so a 120GB drive (the smallest they made at the time) would only recognize &amp; address the first 200MB.</p><p>So yeah, I'm sure a drive manufacturer like Seagate could write custom firmware for him that would meet his project needs.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>A whole chip ?
Really ? That sounds hard .
Just Ebay an old 20MB Seagate ST-225 MFM drive , and write whatever bits you want .
It does n't know any better.Or , the submitter could contact Seagate or another drive manufacturer and ask what it would take to get a drive with special firmware that let him write 1 's and 0 's directly to the drive wherever he wanted .
Basically , remove the intelligence on the drive.It 's not that impossible for drive manufacturers to do things like this for you , if you have the $ $ to pay for it .
I do n't know what the cost would be , especially since he 's really only [ probably ] looking for a few drives for this project .
If it 's grant-funded research , the grant would pay for it .
If it 's an independent project of some kind , he 's in for a surprise.I took a behind-doors tour of a major drive manufacturer a few years ago .
During our visit , we were able to visit with engineers - one of whom was head of the firmware engineering team .
He told us lots of stories about the firmware requests they 've fulfilled .
One example was a customer who supported lots of old PBX systems .
These PBX systems ran software from a hard drive , but due to the age the system only supported drives up to ( around ) 200MB .
Nobody made drives that small anymore , so this drive manufacturer re-wrote the firmware for them ( $ $ ) so a 120GB drive ( the smallest they made at the time ) would only recognize &amp; address the first 200MB.So yeah , I 'm sure a drive manufacturer like Seagate could write custom firmware for him that would meet his project needs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A whole chip?
Really? That sounds hard.
Just Ebay an old 20MB Seagate ST-225 MFM drive, and write whatever bits you want.
It doesn't know any better.Or, the submitter could contact Seagate or another drive manufacturer and ask what it would take to get a drive with special firmware that let him write 1's and 0's directly to the drive wherever he wanted.
Basically, remove the intelligence on the drive.It's not that impossible for drive manufacturers to do things like this for you, if you have the $$ to pay for it.
I don't know what the cost would be, especially since he's really only [probably] looking for a few drives for this project.
If it's grant-funded research, the grant would pay for it.
If it's an independent project of some kind, he's in for a surprise.I took a behind-doors tour of a major drive manufacturer a few years ago.
During our visit, we were able to visit with engineers - one of whom was head of the firmware engineering team.
He told us lots of stories about the firmware requests they've fulfilled.
One example was a customer who supported lots of old PBX systems.
These PBX systems ran software from a hard drive, but due to the age the system only supported drives up to (around) 200MB.
Nobody made drives that small anymore, so this drive manufacturer re-wrote the firmware for them ($$) so a 120GB drive (the smallest they made at the time) would only recognize &amp; address the first 200MB.So yeah, I'm sure a drive manufacturer like Seagate could write custom firmware for him that would meet his project needs.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343032</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343696</id>
	<title>This</title>
	<author>Alvare</author>
	<datestamp>1267622520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>What about doing it the other way around?
You could study how the filesystem works with one specific set of hardware, and write specific data in specific milliseconds in specific places to force the hard disk to write the 1s and 0s exactly were you want them.

You would be very limited, but it could work.</htmltext>
<tokenext>What about doing it the other way around ?
You could study how the filesystem works with one specific set of hardware , and write specific data in specific milliseconds in specific places to force the hard disk to write the 1s and 0s exactly were you want them .
You would be very limited , but it could work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What about doing it the other way around?
You could study how the filesystem works with one specific set of hardware, and write specific data in specific milliseconds in specific places to force the hard disk to write the 1s and 0s exactly were you want them.
You would be very limited, but it could work.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31347698</id>
	<title>Re:Tell us your project?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267640940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>If a responder doesn't know how to answer a question, then he should just move along -- not try to change the question to something he does know the answer to.</p></div></blockquote><p>Many of use work in IT and are regularity asked to help someone do something very difficult or practically impossible.  I'd be worthless at my job if my response to such requests was, "Sorry, no idea."  Or worse, to actually send someone down a long time-wasting road.  Instead, I start asking questions, generally, "Why do you want to do that?"  In the end a simple solution is often found and everyone is happy.  Why should this situation be any different?
<br> <br>
I know some IT people lack any form of creativity and simply follow requests literally.  I work with a few and their productivity is very low.  You job isn't to just follow rules, but to maximize your contribution to your organization.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If a responder does n't know how to answer a question , then he should just move along -- not try to change the question to something he does know the answer to.Many of use work in IT and are regularity asked to help someone do something very difficult or practically impossible .
I 'd be worthless at my job if my response to such requests was , " Sorry , no idea .
" Or worse , to actually send someone down a long time-wasting road .
Instead , I start asking questions , generally , " Why do you want to do that ?
" In the end a simple solution is often found and everyone is happy .
Why should this situation be any different ?
I know some IT people lack any form of creativity and simply follow requests literally .
I work with a few and their productivity is very low .
You job is n't to just follow rules , but to maximize your contribution to your organization .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If a responder doesn't know how to answer a question, then he should just move along -- not try to change the question to something he does know the answer to.Many of use work in IT and are regularity asked to help someone do something very difficult or practically impossible.
I'd be worthless at my job if my response to such requests was, "Sorry, no idea.
"  Or worse, to actually send someone down a long time-wasting road.
Instead, I start asking questions, generally, "Why do you want to do that?
"  In the end a simple solution is often found and everyone is happy.
Why should this situation be any different?
I know some IT people lack any form of creativity and simply follow requests literally.
I work with a few and their productivity is very low.
You job isn't to just follow rules, but to maximize your contribution to your organization.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346738</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31347582</id>
	<title>used to do it with BIOS interrupt  int 13h</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267640400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Used to be able to read and write arbitrary sectors with assembly code using BIOS ISR "int 13h". You can only read and write sectors. If you want to read/write bits, you need to get into the firmware loaded on the hard-drive themselves. Contact the hard-drive manufacturers. Some of the obsoleted firmware's source may be available to you if you execute NDA with them. Better yet, go through an University if you have acadamic contacts and the process may be smoother.  Even wit firmware changes, I still believe that you can only read/write sectors at a time due to hardware design and not any individual bit within a sector.  In any case, hard drive companies will have the final answer for you.</p><p>If you are not able to obtain off-the-shelf-hard drive, use the platters, and find/make a high-resolution CNC machine that you can control using the hard drive components. Use the hard-drive head on CNC machine.  At the end of the day, hard drives are all controlled by motors.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Used to be able to read and write arbitrary sectors with assembly code using BIOS ISR " int 13h " .
You can only read and write sectors .
If you want to read/write bits , you need to get into the firmware loaded on the hard-drive themselves .
Contact the hard-drive manufacturers .
Some of the obsoleted firmware 's source may be available to you if you execute NDA with them .
Better yet , go through an University if you have acadamic contacts and the process may be smoother .
Even wit firmware changes , I still believe that you can only read/write sectors at a time due to hardware design and not any individual bit within a sector .
In any case , hard drive companies will have the final answer for you.If you are not able to obtain off-the-shelf-hard drive , use the platters , and find/make a high-resolution CNC machine that you can control using the hard drive components .
Use the hard-drive head on CNC machine .
At the end of the day , hard drives are all controlled by motors .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Used to be able to read and write arbitrary sectors with assembly code using BIOS ISR "int 13h".
You can only read and write sectors.
If you want to read/write bits, you need to get into the firmware loaded on the hard-drive themselves.
Contact the hard-drive manufacturers.
Some of the obsoleted firmware's source may be available to you if you execute NDA with them.
Better yet, go through an University if you have acadamic contacts and the process may be smoother.
Even wit firmware changes, I still believe that you can only read/write sectors at a time due to hardware design and not any individual bit within a sector.
In any case, hard drive companies will have the final answer for you.If you are not able to obtain off-the-shelf-hard drive, use the platters, and find/make a high-resolution CNC machine that you can control using the hard drive components.
Use the hard-drive head on CNC machine.
At the end of the day, hard drives are all controlled by motors.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31355068</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>klui</author>
	<datestamp>1267644660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>These PBX systems ran software from a hard drive, but due to the age the system only supported drives up to (around) 200MB. Nobody made drives that small anymore, so this drive manufacturer re-wrote the firmware for them ($$) so a 120GB drive (the smallest they made at the time) would only recognize &amp; address the first 200MB.</p></div></blockquote><p>What they really did was use MHDD to trim the drive's size.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>These PBX systems ran software from a hard drive , but due to the age the system only supported drives up to ( around ) 200MB .
Nobody made drives that small anymore , so this drive manufacturer re-wrote the firmware for them ( $ $ ) so a 120GB drive ( the smallest they made at the time ) would only recognize &amp; address the first 200MB.What they really did was use MHDD to trim the drive 's size .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>These PBX systems ran software from a hard drive, but due to the age the system only supported drives up to (around) 200MB.
Nobody made drives that small anymore, so this drive manufacturer re-wrote the firmware for them ($$) so a 120GB drive (the smallest they made at the time) would only recognize &amp; address the first 200MB.What they really did was use MHDD to trim the drive's size.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343842</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345036</id>
	<title>Re:Tell us your project?</title>
	<author>marcansoft</author>
	<datestamp>1267629840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>There is such a thing as a generic solution to a problem.</p></div></blockquote><p>There is no generic solution to this problem (or, equivalently, there are many useless ones). The problem is so open-ended and poorly defined that there are dozens of solutions that strictly speaking meet the requirements, yet the chances of them actually working for his project are slim. If you think you can provide a solution, you're making many assumptions about the project.</p><p>I bet you're someone who writes <a href="http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/The-Expert-System.aspx" title="thedailywtf.com">an expert system</a> [thedailywtf.com] instead of actually solving the task you set out to do.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>There is such a thing as a generic solution to a problem.There is no generic solution to this problem ( or , equivalently , there are many useless ones ) .
The problem is so open-ended and poorly defined that there are dozens of solutions that strictly speaking meet the requirements , yet the chances of them actually working for his project are slim .
If you think you can provide a solution , you 're making many assumptions about the project.I bet you 're someone who writes an expert system [ thedailywtf.com ] instead of actually solving the task you set out to do .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is such a thing as a generic solution to a problem.There is no generic solution to this problem (or, equivalently, there are many useless ones).
The problem is so open-ended and poorly defined that there are dozens of solutions that strictly speaking meet the requirements, yet the chances of them actually working for his project are slim.
If you think you can provide a solution, you're making many assumptions about the project.I bet you're someone who writes an expert system [thedailywtf.com] instead of actually solving the task you set out to do.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343508</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346296</id>
	<title>impossible</title>
	<author>StripedCow</author>
	<datestamp>1267635120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Unfortunately, modern hard-drives are more closed than the iPhone. It's practically impossible to get anything past the built-in controller, unless you're willing to open up your HD and do some hard hacking.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Unfortunately , modern hard-drives are more closed than the iPhone .
It 's practically impossible to get anything past the built-in controller , unless you 're willing to open up your HD and do some hard hacking .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unfortunately, modern hard-drives are more closed than the iPhone.
It's practically impossible to get anything past the built-in controller, unless you're willing to open up your HD and do some hard hacking.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343160</id>
	<title>Re:You're doing it wrong!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267618260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You can calculate this by finding out C/H/S parameters (and the physical dimensions of the platter(s)), calculating the LBA, reading the sector where the bit should 'appear' and rewriting it with the 'one' bit changed (ATA controllers read/write 512 bytes at a time (sector size)).<br>Simple, <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical\_block\_addressing" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">LBA</a> [wikipedia.org] .</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You can calculate this by finding out C/H/S parameters ( and the physical dimensions of the platter ( s ) ) , calculating the LBA , reading the sector where the bit should 'appear ' and rewriting it with the 'one ' bit changed ( ATA controllers read/write 512 bytes at a time ( sector size ) ) .Simple , LBA [ wikipedia.org ] .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You can calculate this by finding out C/H/S parameters (and the physical dimensions of the platter(s)), calculating the LBA, reading the sector where the bit should 'appear' and rewriting it with the 'one' bit changed (ATA controllers read/write 512 bytes at a time (sector size)).Simple, LBA [wikipedia.org] .</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343020</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343610</id>
	<title>I don't think it was EVER possible...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267621980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I suppose it MIGHT be possible to jigger some drives to format a cylinder in some specific weird format, so it contains information you can only get at if you use a 666 byte sector size, but even this kind of thing hasn't really been possible on hard drives any time... I don't think even ST506 MFM and RLL controllers let you do much more than jigger some encoding of the sector and the sector size, otherwise you'd have been able to upgrade an MFM controller to RLL in software.</p><p>Heck, the ability of the Apple-II and Amiga *floppy* controllers to play clever games at the bit/nybble/byte level was unusual.</p><p>And given that the most common use of that kind of shenanigans was for copy protection, the speculation this fellow is looking for some help in coming up with a hard DRM scheme seems spot on.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I suppose it MIGHT be possible to jigger some drives to format a cylinder in some specific weird format , so it contains information you can only get at if you use a 666 byte sector size , but even this kind of thing has n't really been possible on hard drives any time... I do n't think even ST506 MFM and RLL controllers let you do much more than jigger some encoding of the sector and the sector size , otherwise you 'd have been able to upgrade an MFM controller to RLL in software.Heck , the ability of the Apple-II and Amiga * floppy * controllers to play clever games at the bit/nybble/byte level was unusual.And given that the most common use of that kind of shenanigans was for copy protection , the speculation this fellow is looking for some help in coming up with a hard DRM scheme seems spot on .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I suppose it MIGHT be possible to jigger some drives to format a cylinder in some specific weird format, so it contains information you can only get at if you use a 666 byte sector size, but even this kind of thing hasn't really been possible on hard drives any time... I don't think even ST506 MFM and RLL controllers let you do much more than jigger some encoding of the sector and the sector size, otherwise you'd have been able to upgrade an MFM controller to RLL in software.Heck, the ability of the Apple-II and Amiga *floppy* controllers to play clever games at the bit/nybble/byte level was unusual.And given that the most common use of that kind of shenanigans was for copy protection, the speculation this fellow is looking for some help in coming up with a hard DRM scheme seems spot on.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342812</id>
	<title>May I suggest</title>
	<author>Blazarov</author>
	<datestamp>1267615260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>May I suggest a magnetic needle and a steady hand?

<a href="http://xkcd.com/378/" title="xkcd.com" rel="nofollow">http://xkcd.com/378/</a> [xkcd.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>May I suggest a magnetic needle and a steady hand ?
http : //xkcd.com/378/ [ xkcd.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>May I suggest a magnetic needle and a steady hand?
http://xkcd.com/378/ [xkcd.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346536</id>
	<title>Re:A real (but expensive) solution:</title>
	<author>GatorMan</author>
	<datestamp>1267636260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>You know how data restoration companies do it?
They take out the spindle with the platters, and put it in their own reading device with its own controller. And with that you can read and write the exact bits (as long as quantum physics allow it). But the head has to be compatible (e.g. perpendicular recording needs entirely different heads).</p><p>I bet those devices can be bought, and I bet their controller is actually just software on the computer (for flexibility). I also bet they come with different head configurations.
But they are definitely not going to be cheap.</p><p>Hey, at least it is a real solution.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></div><p>Having worked for a successful "data restoration company", I can say that you are absolutely incorrect.  There is no mysterious 'reading device with its own controller'.  Why would you even need one when the drive you're working on is often modular?  Individual components can often be replaced (head stack, spindle motor, PCB, etc) from another drive that matches the original in a very specific way (this differs by manufacturer).

Have you actually ever been trained to perform invasive data recovery, or are you just going by what someone told you over the phone?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You know how data restoration companies do it ?
They take out the spindle with the platters , and put it in their own reading device with its own controller .
And with that you can read and write the exact bits ( as long as quantum physics allow it ) .
But the head has to be compatible ( e.g .
perpendicular recording needs entirely different heads ) .I bet those devices can be bought , and I bet their controller is actually just software on the computer ( for flexibility ) .
I also bet they come with different head configurations .
But they are definitely not going to be cheap.Hey , at least it is a real solution .
: ) Having worked for a successful " data restoration company " , I can say that you are absolutely incorrect .
There is no mysterious 'reading device with its own controller' .
Why would you even need one when the drive you 're working on is often modular ?
Individual components can often be replaced ( head stack , spindle motor , PCB , etc ) from another drive that matches the original in a very specific way ( this differs by manufacturer ) .
Have you actually ever been trained to perform invasive data recovery , or are you just going by what someone told you over the phone ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You know how data restoration companies do it?
They take out the spindle with the platters, and put it in their own reading device with its own controller.
And with that you can read and write the exact bits (as long as quantum physics allow it).
But the head has to be compatible (e.g.
perpendicular recording needs entirely different heads).I bet those devices can be bought, and I bet their controller is actually just software on the computer (for flexibility).
I also bet they come with different head configurations.
But they are definitely not going to be cheap.Hey, at least it is a real solution.
:)Having worked for a successful "data restoration company", I can say that you are absolutely incorrect.
There is no mysterious 'reading device with its own controller'.
Why would you even need one when the drive you're working on is often modular?
Individual components can often be replaced (head stack, spindle motor, PCB, etc) from another drive that matches the original in a very specific way (this differs by manufacturer).
Have you actually ever been trained to perform invasive data recovery, or are you just going by what someone told you over the phone?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343474</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31348064</id>
	<title>Tell Us Why WAH WAH WAH WAH</title>
	<author>dcollins</author>
	<datestamp>1267642800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Geez. This is not the first thread with the majority of wasted posts in the "wah wah why won't you tell us why you need this, you're a big dummy plllbbbb" category, but it's getting more and more aggravating over time. Slashdot seems to be slipping into the idiocracy with this stuff.</p><p>The guy can't tell you why because he's under NDA. Or his higher-ups gave him unreasonable requirements that he tried and failed to dissuade them from, but he wants to be diplomatic instead of making a public stink over it. (That was my case last time I got this treatment here.)</p><p>The fact that the guy's disciplined enough to not respond to the flamebait indicates to me that he probably knows exactly what he's doing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Geez .
This is not the first thread with the majority of wasted posts in the " wah wah why wo n't you tell us why you need this , you 're a big dummy plllbbbb " category , but it 's getting more and more aggravating over time .
Slashdot seems to be slipping into the idiocracy with this stuff.The guy ca n't tell you why because he 's under NDA .
Or his higher-ups gave him unreasonable requirements that he tried and failed to dissuade them from , but he wants to be diplomatic instead of making a public stink over it .
( That was my case last time I got this treatment here .
) The fact that the guy 's disciplined enough to not respond to the flamebait indicates to me that he probably knows exactly what he 's doing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Geez.
This is not the first thread with the majority of wasted posts in the "wah wah why won't you tell us why you need this, you're a big dummy plllbbbb" category, but it's getting more and more aggravating over time.
Slashdot seems to be slipping into the idiocracy with this stuff.The guy can't tell you why because he's under NDA.
Or his higher-ups gave him unreasonable requirements that he tried and failed to dissuade them from, but he wants to be diplomatic instead of making a public stink over it.
(That was my case last time I got this treatment here.
)The fact that the guy's disciplined enough to not respond to the flamebait indicates to me that he probably knows exactly what he's doing.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346042</id>
	<title>adaptec datasheets</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267633980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>long ago programmed first adaptec products: harddisk controller chips<br>which looked to be pre-programmed microcontrollers. the datasheets<br>of these chips had the info about extra bits written on disk for the pll<br>sync. etc, see also the fd-1791 datasheets.<br>maybe analyse such old adaptec controller like this one:<br>Adaptec ABC4000 SASI-&gt;ST506, (2x Wren CDC 9415-86)<br>never seen opensource harddisk controller firmware despite rms.<br>
&nbsp;</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>long ago programmed first adaptec products : harddisk controller chipswhich looked to be pre-programmed microcontrollers .
the datasheetsof these chips had the info about extra bits written on disk for the pllsync .
etc , see also the fd-1791 datasheets.maybe analyse such old adaptec controller like this one : Adaptec ABC4000 SASI- &gt; ST506 , ( 2x Wren CDC 9415-86 ) never seen opensource harddisk controller firmware despite rms .
 </tokentext>
<sentencetext>long ago programmed first adaptec products: harddisk controller chipswhich looked to be pre-programmed microcontrollers.
the datasheetsof these chips had the info about extra bits written on disk for the pllsync.
etc, see also the fd-1791 datasheets.maybe analyse such old adaptec controller like this one:Adaptec ABC4000 SASI-&gt;ST506, (2x Wren CDC 9415-86)never seen opensource harddisk controller firmware despite rms.
 </sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342828</id>
	<title>Hard disk firmware hacking</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267615380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm fairly sure you would have to go fairly deep and directly hack/modify hard disk firmware to do what you describe. Such hack would be non-trivial and most likely model-specific.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm fairly sure you would have to go fairly deep and directly hack/modify hard disk firmware to do what you describe .
Such hack would be non-trivial and most likely model-specific .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm fairly sure you would have to go fairly deep and directly hack/modify hard disk firmware to do what you describe.
Such hack would be non-trivial and most likely model-specific.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31353970</id>
	<title>the one who doesn't</title>
	<author>mosel-saar-ruwer</author>
	<datestamp>1267632180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>In fact, if I asked this to a 100 engineers, I'd really expect that at least 99 of them will immediately ask "why the fuck would you want to do that!?". And the one who doesn't probably works at a harddisk manufacturer.</i>
<br><br>
And yet the who doesn't is PRECISELY who you want to be talking to - the other 99 have NOTHING to offer you.
<br><br>
.</htmltext>
<tokenext>In fact , if I asked this to a 100 engineers , I 'd really expect that at least 99 of them will immediately ask " why the fuck would you want to do that ! ? " .
And the one who does n't probably works at a harddisk manufacturer .
And yet the who does n't is PRECISELY who you want to be talking to - the other 99 have NOTHING to offer you .
.</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In fact, if I asked this to a 100 engineers, I'd really expect that at least 99 of them will immediately ask "why the fuck would you want to do that!?".
And the one who doesn't probably works at a harddisk manufacturer.
And yet the who doesn't is PRECISELY who you want to be talking to - the other 99 have NOTHING to offer you.
.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345402</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345776</id>
	<title>Re:Headlines are superfluous</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267632780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Since the intricacies of the drive's physical address space are not accessible from the outside, there will never never never be a reason to try and fiddle with it directly. Because you can't.</p></div><p>  Careful there. I know you're addressing a typical user of the hard drives, but there ARE ways of -- and reasons for -- getting at the "bits themselves". One of my colleagues, as a fresh student at one of the National Labs in the US, was tasked with recovering data from a crashed (literally crashed, so that the controller was destroyed and platters bent, with lots of data loss) disk. Of course there are ways and means of doing so, usually involving fantastically specialized equipment and lots of expense (and, often, the complicity or orders at the Federal level).</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; He ended up building a sweet little system which could scan the surface (in a low-level clean-room, of course), albeit slowly, and interact directly with the bits.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I'll have to ask him how they figured out the filesystem, the error-correction, and so on, without any of the usual partition tables and so forth.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Since the intricacies of the drive 's physical address space are not accessible from the outside , there will never never never be a reason to try and fiddle with it directly .
Because you ca n't .
Careful there .
I know you 're addressing a typical user of the hard drives , but there ARE ways of -- and reasons for -- getting at the " bits themselves " .
One of my colleagues , as a fresh student at one of the National Labs in the US , was tasked with recovering data from a crashed ( literally crashed , so that the controller was destroyed and platters bent , with lots of data loss ) disk .
Of course there are ways and means of doing so , usually involving fantastically specialized equipment and lots of expense ( and , often , the complicity or orders at the Federal level ) .
      He ended up building a sweet little system which could scan the surface ( in a low-level clean-room , of course ) , albeit slowly , and interact directly with the bits .
      I 'll have to ask him how they figured out the filesystem , the error-correction , and so on , without any of the usual partition tables and so forth .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Since the intricacies of the drive's physical address space are not accessible from the outside, there will never never never be a reason to try and fiddle with it directly.
Because you can't.
Careful there.
I know you're addressing a typical user of the hard drives, but there ARE ways of -- and reasons for -- getting at the "bits themselves".
One of my colleagues, as a fresh student at one of the National Labs in the US, was tasked with recovering data from a crashed (literally crashed, so that the controller was destroyed and platters bent, with lots of data loss) disk.
Of course there are ways and means of doing so, usually involving fantastically specialized equipment and lots of expense (and, often, the complicity or orders at the Federal level).
      He ended up building a sweet little system which could scan the surface (in a low-level clean-room, of course), albeit slowly, and interact directly with the bits.
      I'll have to ask him how they figured out the filesystem, the error-correction, and so on, without any of the usual partition tables and so forth.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343536</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345992</id>
	<title>use a pen</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267633740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>use a felt pen (the permanent marker kind). but make sure you write legibly. you can then control exactly where the ones and zeros are written, and even control their shape...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>use a felt pen ( the permanent marker kind ) .
but make sure you write legibly .
you can then control exactly where the ones and zeros are written , and even control their shape.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>use a felt pen (the permanent marker kind).
but make sure you write legibly.
you can then control exactly where the ones and zeros are written, and even control their shape...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346374</id>
	<title>Butterfly</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267635420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just use a butterfly.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just use a butterfly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just use a butterfly.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343114</id>
	<title>Re:Tell us your project?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267617900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sounds like he is trying to develop a new hard disk firmware...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sounds like he is trying to develop a new hard disk firmware.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sounds like he is trying to develop a new hard disk firmware...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342940</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345202</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>iamhassi</author>
	<datestamp>1267630560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>"The Apple IIe was a wretched computer with awful software,"</i>
<br> <br>
What?  The Apple IIe was very popular at the time, I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinions but I've never heard anyone describe a 80s Apple as "wretched" or "awful".</htmltext>
<tokenext>" The Apple IIe was a wretched computer with awful software , " What ?
The Apple IIe was very popular at the time , I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinions but I 've never heard anyone describe a 80s Apple as " wretched " or " awful " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"The Apple IIe was a wretched computer with awful software,"
 
What?
The Apple IIe was very popular at the time, I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinions but I've never heard anyone describe a 80s Apple as "wretched" or "awful".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344084</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343194</id>
	<title>Define "exactly"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267618500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You can never place something "exactly", since that is limited by the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle!</p><p>So, what do you mean by "exactly" in your application? For example, what are the units in which you are measuring the degree to which it is exact - track+sector, or radius+angle etc etc.</p><p>Do you want to be able to write a single spiral track like a CD?</p><p>What does "exactly" even mean if the bits are spread across the platter due error correcting codes etc?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You can never place something " exactly " , since that is limited by the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle ! So , what do you mean by " exactly " in your application ?
For example , what are the units in which you are measuring the degree to which it is exact - track + sector , or radius + angle etc etc.Do you want to be able to write a single spiral track like a CD ? What does " exactly " even mean if the bits are spread across the platter due error correcting codes etc ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You can never place something "exactly", since that is limited by the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle!So, what do you mean by "exactly" in your application?
For example, what are the units in which you are measuring the degree to which it is exact - track+sector, or radius+angle etc etc.Do you want to be able to write a single spiral track like a CD?What does "exactly" even mean if the bits are spread across the platter due error correcting codes etc?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344206</id>
	<title>I have written to a disk drive kind of like this..</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267625700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think I've actually done something like this.</p><p>Back in the day, I worked on  a Commodore 128, and an external 1581 disk drive.<br>It was really cool, the disk drive had it's own operating system, different from the computer.<br>
&nbsp; you would form special packets on a floppy disk, which the drive would load and execute as code in the disk drive's buffers.<br>So you could actually "add" commands to the operating system of the disk drive.<br>Was a common copy protection scheme back then.</p><p>To save something to the disk at a certain spot, you could determine the track and sector you want to write to,<br>then read that sector, modify the bits you want to change,<br>then write that sector to one of the disk drive's buffers, and send a command to write sector to disk, giving it the<br>track, sector, and the number of the buffer to write from.</p><p>You had to write your own software to write to the disk drive, I think i used assembly language for that.</p><p>Anyway, a program to do this now might be difficult, but if you step back to DOS operating system and an old drive, need not be mfm,<br>you can prove it works by using good old DEBUG.   With DEBUG you can read a specific track and sector from disk into a memory location,<br>then modify it, write it back to disk, one sector at a time.  But it is tedious to do for a big project.</p><p>Or get a DOS track and sector editor and do your tests in that to get it working.<br>There are millions of tracks and sectors on a single disk--this would be too slow for a real project,<br>but you can  get a proof that it works going, and take it to someone who now can see what you are doing and write a<br>small executable that can be scripted, or write a new program that will do the whole thing.</p><p>As an aside, because of the nature of the disk drive, you are still limited in writing to existing tracks and sectors, there is not a<br>way to write to a specific bit at a polar coordinate.  Firmware won't take that command.  you have to have some sort of translation<br>table in your program too, as the the tracks are larger at the periphery of the disk, and have more sectors per circle (track) than they do<br>closer to the middle.</p><p>You have to know about the physical layout of the platter to convert this to a translation table of tracks and sectors that your disc drive<br>can write to.</p><p>Consider storing the data instead in a disk file as polar coordinates: value, angle, distance.<br>That is information you have to have anyway to decide where to write it on the disk...</p><p>If you can tell us more about it, we can help better.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think I 've actually done something like this.Back in the day , I worked on a Commodore 128 , and an external 1581 disk drive.It was really cool , the disk drive had it 's own operating system , different from the computer .
  you would form special packets on a floppy disk , which the drive would load and execute as code in the disk drive 's buffers.So you could actually " add " commands to the operating system of the disk drive.Was a common copy protection scheme back then.To save something to the disk at a certain spot , you could determine the track and sector you want to write to,then read that sector , modify the bits you want to change,then write that sector to one of the disk drive 's buffers , and send a command to write sector to disk , giving it thetrack , sector , and the number of the buffer to write from.You had to write your own software to write to the disk drive , I think i used assembly language for that.Anyway , a program to do this now might be difficult , but if you step back to DOS operating system and an old drive , need not be mfm,you can prove it works by using good old DEBUG .
With DEBUG you can read a specific track and sector from disk into a memory location,then modify it , write it back to disk , one sector at a time .
But it is tedious to do for a big project.Or get a DOS track and sector editor and do your tests in that to get it working.There are millions of tracks and sectors on a single disk--this would be too slow for a real project,but you can get a proof that it works going , and take it to someone who now can see what you are doing and write asmall executable that can be scripted , or write a new program that will do the whole thing.As an aside , because of the nature of the disk drive , you are still limited in writing to existing tracks and sectors , there is not away to write to a specific bit at a polar coordinate .
Firmware wo n't take that command .
you have to have some sort of translationtable in your program too , as the the tracks are larger at the periphery of the disk , and have more sectors per circle ( track ) than they docloser to the middle.You have to know about the physical layout of the platter to convert this to a translation table of tracks and sectors that your disc drivecan write to.Consider storing the data instead in a disk file as polar coordinates : value , angle , distance.That is information you have to have anyway to decide where to write it on the disk...If you can tell us more about it , we can help better .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think I've actually done something like this.Back in the day, I worked on  a Commodore 128, and an external 1581 disk drive.It was really cool, the disk drive had it's own operating system, different from the computer.
  you would form special packets on a floppy disk, which the drive would load and execute as code in the disk drive's buffers.So you could actually "add" commands to the operating system of the disk drive.Was a common copy protection scheme back then.To save something to the disk at a certain spot, you could determine the track and sector you want to write to,then read that sector, modify the bits you want to change,then write that sector to one of the disk drive's buffers, and send a command to write sector to disk, giving it thetrack, sector, and the number of the buffer to write from.You had to write your own software to write to the disk drive, I think i used assembly language for that.Anyway, a program to do this now might be difficult, but if you step back to DOS operating system and an old drive, need not be mfm,you can prove it works by using good old DEBUG.
With DEBUG you can read a specific track and sector from disk into a memory location,then modify it, write it back to disk, one sector at a time.
But it is tedious to do for a big project.Or get a DOS track and sector editor and do your tests in that to get it working.There are millions of tracks and sectors on a single disk--this would be too slow for a real project,but you can  get a proof that it works going, and take it to someone who now can see what you are doing and write asmall executable that can be scripted, or write a new program that will do the whole thing.As an aside, because of the nature of the disk drive, you are still limited in writing to existing tracks and sectors, there is not away to write to a specific bit at a polar coordinate.
Firmware won't take that command.
you have to have some sort of translationtable in your program too, as the the tracks are larger at the periphery of the disk, and have more sectors per circle (track) than they docloser to the middle.You have to know about the physical layout of the platter to convert this to a translation table of tracks and sectors that your disc drivecan write to.Consider storing the data instead in a disk file as polar coordinates: value, angle, distance.That is information you have to have anyway to decide where to write it on the disk...If you can tell us more about it, we can help better.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343644</id>
	<title>Magnetic nano-fabrication?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267622160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hopefully it's some socially useful purpose like a magnetic scaffolding for nano-engineering such as DNA/drug synthesis, building fuzzy/nano structures (batteries, drugs, whatever) at the areal densities of modern drives.  I guess you'd figure out how to distribute the bits, drop the medium onto the platter, and go from there.  Probably easier technologies to futz with, but if this is the goal you could probably accomplish a testbed with a hardware/firmware hack, worst case an FPGA etc., but they'd be better off sharing the wealth by partnering with an entity that does this for a living, like a drive manufacturer, or maybe a data recovery house.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hopefully it 's some socially useful purpose like a magnetic scaffolding for nano-engineering such as DNA/drug synthesis , building fuzzy/nano structures ( batteries , drugs , whatever ) at the areal densities of modern drives .
I guess you 'd figure out how to distribute the bits , drop the medium onto the platter , and go from there .
Probably easier technologies to futz with , but if this is the goal you could probably accomplish a testbed with a hardware/firmware hack , worst case an FPGA etc. , but they 'd be better off sharing the wealth by partnering with an entity that does this for a living , like a drive manufacturer , or maybe a data recovery house .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hopefully it's some socially useful purpose like a magnetic scaffolding for nano-engineering such as DNA/drug synthesis, building fuzzy/nano structures (batteries, drugs, whatever) at the areal densities of modern drives.
I guess you'd figure out how to distribute the bits, drop the medium onto the platter, and go from there.
Probably easier technologies to futz with, but if this is the goal you could probably accomplish a testbed with a hardware/firmware hack, worst case an FPGA etc., but they'd be better off sharing the wealth by partnering with an entity that does this for a living, like a drive manufacturer, or maybe a data recovery house.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31349702</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>marcosdumay</author>
	<datestamp>1267607580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Some people think that is ettiquete for posting on Slashdot. This site is inherently linked to free software.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Some people think that is ettiquete for posting on Slashdot .
This site is inherently linked to free software .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Some people think that is ettiquete for posting on Slashdot.
This site is inherently linked to free software.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345158</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31360728</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267731300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As a kid, I cut my teeth on a 30 MB MFM.  I thought we were hot stuff back then, when we upgraded our IBM PC 5150 (rev B) from having two full-height 5.25" floppy drives to having a half-height high-density 5.25", and the MFM HDD jerry-rigged on.</p><p>We further decked it out with an 8087 coprocessor, and an AST RAM-Page board with a whopping 2 MB of memory!  Part of that was used to fill out the lower 640k (only 256k on the motherboard), and the rest was paged for expanded memory.  Top that off with a Hayes proprietary V-series 9600 Smartmodem for BBSing, and an upgrade to an EGA video card and monitor.</p><p>That was a sweet rig, compared to the Timex Sinclair 1000 we had before...<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)  And, I learned not to be afraid to dig into machine guts at an early age (in the mid- to late-1980s).  Ah, good times.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As a kid , I cut my teeth on a 30 MB MFM .
I thought we were hot stuff back then , when we upgraded our IBM PC 5150 ( rev B ) from having two full-height 5.25 " floppy drives to having a half-height high-density 5.25 " , and the MFM HDD jerry-rigged on.We further decked it out with an 8087 coprocessor , and an AST RAM-Page board with a whopping 2 MB of memory !
Part of that was used to fill out the lower 640k ( only 256k on the motherboard ) , and the rest was paged for expanded memory .
Top that off with a Hayes proprietary V-series 9600 Smartmodem for BBSing , and an upgrade to an EGA video card and monitor.That was a sweet rig , compared to the Timex Sinclair 1000 we had before... ; ) And , I learned not to be afraid to dig into machine guts at an early age ( in the mid- to late-1980s ) .
Ah , good times .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a kid, I cut my teeth on a 30 MB MFM.
I thought we were hot stuff back then, when we upgraded our IBM PC 5150 (rev B) from having two full-height 5.25" floppy drives to having a half-height high-density 5.25", and the MFM HDD jerry-rigged on.We further decked it out with an 8087 coprocessor, and an AST RAM-Page board with a whopping 2 MB of memory!
Part of that was used to fill out the lower 640k (only 256k on the motherboard), and the rest was paged for expanded memory.
Top that off with a Hayes proprietary V-series 9600 Smartmodem for BBSing, and an upgrade to an EGA video card and monitor.That was a sweet rig, compared to the Timex Sinclair 1000 we had before... ;)  And, I learned not to be afraid to dig into machine guts at an early age (in the mid- to late-1980s).
Ah, good times.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344270</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343476</id>
	<title>Are you sure that's your requirement?</title>
	<author>Zarf</author>
	<datestamp>1267621140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>"I'm working on a project that requires writing bits to a magnetic hard drive platter in a completely controlled fashion."</p></div><p>Are you sure?</p><p>The reason I ask is I'm working on a project that requires me to move data faster than light. At least that's what I spent last Monday working up the math to prove that data replication between our different data centers has an upper bound enforced by the fabric of the universe and that it was impossible for me to achieve the project's stated goals without essentially inventing warp drive. As it turns out after a meeting it was determined that the goal was just a stated guideline. It also turns out the price of faster data transfer rates is prohibitive and after a further meeting the stated project goal was total baloney. Yes. Baloney. We had sandwiches. It was a nice meeting.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" I 'm working on a project that requires writing bits to a magnetic hard drive platter in a completely controlled fashion .
" Are you sure ? The reason I ask is I 'm working on a project that requires me to move data faster than light .
At least that 's what I spent last Monday working up the math to prove that data replication between our different data centers has an upper bound enforced by the fabric of the universe and that it was impossible for me to achieve the project 's stated goals without essentially inventing warp drive .
As it turns out after a meeting it was determined that the goal was just a stated guideline .
It also turns out the price of faster data transfer rates is prohibitive and after a further meeting the stated project goal was total baloney .
Yes. Baloney .
We had sandwiches .
It was a nice meeting .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"I'm working on a project that requires writing bits to a magnetic hard drive platter in a completely controlled fashion.
"Are you sure?The reason I ask is I'm working on a project that requires me to move data faster than light.
At least that's what I spent last Monday working up the math to prove that data replication between our different data centers has an upper bound enforced by the fabric of the universe and that it was impossible for me to achieve the project's stated goals without essentially inventing warp drive.
As it turns out after a meeting it was determined that the goal was just a stated guideline.
It also turns out the price of faster data transfer rates is prohibitive and after a further meeting the stated project goal was total baloney.
Yes. Baloney.
We had sandwiches.
It was a nice meeting.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342848</id>
	<title>That is gonna be hard</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267615500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You would need to replace the firmware inside the drive or use an undocumented manufacturer mode. Whatever they use to write the servo tracks would be interesting to you. You will be in the situation of the firmware writer: There will be problems all the way. Be prepared to find a way to position the heads (ever tried to find a servo track?). Most likely you also need to at least parametrize the amplifiers in the DSP part of the firmware that does the analog-to-something-to-digital so you can have direct influence on the "bits". Good luck</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You would need to replace the firmware inside the drive or use an undocumented manufacturer mode .
Whatever they use to write the servo tracks would be interesting to you .
You will be in the situation of the firmware writer : There will be problems all the way .
Be prepared to find a way to position the heads ( ever tried to find a servo track ? ) .
Most likely you also need to at least parametrize the amplifiers in the DSP part of the firmware that does the analog-to-something-to-digital so you can have direct influence on the " bits " .
Good luck</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You would need to replace the firmware inside the drive or use an undocumented manufacturer mode.
Whatever they use to write the servo tracks would be interesting to you.
You will be in the situation of the firmware writer: There will be problems all the way.
Be prepared to find a way to position the heads (ever tried to find a servo track?).
Most likely you also need to at least parametrize the amplifiers in the DSP part of the firmware that does the analog-to-something-to-digital so you can have direct influence on the "bits".
Good luck</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344686</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>lavaboy</author>
	<datestamp>1267628160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>damn. I was going to say "Call Woz."</htmltext>
<tokenext>damn .
I was going to say " Call Woz .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>damn.
I was going to say "Call Woz.
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344084</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31359888</id>
	<title>HAAAACK ...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267727160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would do it LIKE THIS<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</p><p>Build an app that creates a file on a flash drive and then write directly to that file, and use that file INSTEAD of a hard drive.</p><p>IF flash is too slow then you should be using RAM to set your bits instead of a hard-drive MUCH FASTER ! You say you need to set persistent bits, then write to PRAM, but then that is SLOW again, or create an app that launches at startup to reset the previous RAM bits.</p><p>IF you MUST do it on to THE hard drive then it sounds like you are a hacker, so the HD companies are just not going to allow you to do this.</p><p>Now what if you created a disk in RAM, a perfect virtualized image, then twiddled the bits in the OS to full it into believing the RAM image is THE HD, that might work but I am SURE firewalls in the OS will be guarding against this but that does not mean it can't be done.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would do it LIKE THIS ...Build an app that creates a file on a flash drive and then write directly to that file , and use that file INSTEAD of a hard drive.IF flash is too slow then you should be using RAM to set your bits instead of a hard-drive MUCH FASTER !
You say you need to set persistent bits , then write to PRAM , but then that is SLOW again , or create an app that launches at startup to reset the previous RAM bits.IF you MUST do it on to THE hard drive then it sounds like you are a hacker , so the HD companies are just not going to allow you to do this.Now what if you created a disk in RAM , a perfect virtualized image , then twiddled the bits in the OS to full it into believing the RAM image is THE HD , that might work but I am SURE firewalls in the OS will be guarding against this but that does not mean it ca n't be done .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would do it LIKE THIS ...Build an app that creates a file on a flash drive and then write directly to that file, and use that file INSTEAD of a hard drive.IF flash is too slow then you should be using RAM to set your bits instead of a hard-drive MUCH FASTER !
You say you need to set persistent bits, then write to PRAM, but then that is SLOW again, or create an app that launches at startup to reset the previous RAM bits.IF you MUST do it on to THE hard drive then it sounds like you are a hacker, so the HD companies are just not going to allow you to do this.Now what if you created a disk in RAM, a perfect virtualized image, then twiddled the bits in the OS to full it into believing the RAM image is THE HD, that might work but I am SURE firewalls in the OS will be guarding against this but that does not mean it can't be done.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31347636</id>
	<title>Why would you want to do this?</title>
	<author>mikein08</author>
	<datestamp>1267640640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Unless, as others have suggested, you have
nefarious motives.  IO subsystems can be more
complex than the OS itself, if you indeed know
anyting about either.  And you would be trying
to re-invent the wheel by trying to do what the
poster says he wants.  And I can guarantee your
"new wheel" whould not be very round or useful.
People who write competent IO subsystems tend to
have genius level IQs.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Unless , as others have suggested , you have nefarious motives .
IO subsystems can be more complex than the OS itself , if you indeed know anyting about either .
And you would be trying to re-invent the wheel by trying to do what the poster says he wants .
And I can guarantee your " new wheel " whould not be very round or useful .
People who write competent IO subsystems tend to have genius level IQs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unless, as others have suggested, you have
nefarious motives.
IO subsystems can be more
complex than the OS itself, if you indeed know
anyting about either.
And you would be trying
to re-invent the wheel by trying to do what the
poster says he wants.
And I can guarantee your
"new wheel" whould not be very round or useful.
People who write competent IO subsystems tend to
have genius level IQs.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343508</id>
	<title>Re:Tell us your project?</title>
	<author>Hurricane78</author>
	<datestamp>1267621320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I disagree. The actual project is completely irrelevant. There is such a thing as a generic <em>solution</em> to a problem. Which usually is the best/most elegant one by definiton.</p><p>Your inability to think up generic solutions is rather your own shortcoming.<br>I already provided a good genetic solution below. So as you see, it&rsquo;s not that hard.</p><p>I bet you&rsquo;re someone who doesn&rsquo;t try to find a general algorithm, but will have a huge list of a thousand IF/ELSE statements with custom solutions.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I disagree .
The actual project is completely irrelevant .
There is such a thing as a generic solution to a problem .
Which usually is the best/most elegant one by definiton.Your inability to think up generic solutions is rather your own shortcoming.I already provided a good genetic solution below .
So as you see , it    s not that hard.I bet you    re someone who doesn    t try to find a general algorithm , but will have a huge list of a thousand IF/ELSE statements with custom solutions .
; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I disagree.
The actual project is completely irrelevant.
There is such a thing as a generic solution to a problem.
Which usually is the best/most elegant one by definiton.Your inability to think up generic solutions is rather your own shortcoming.I already provided a good genetic solution below.
So as you see, it’s not that hard.I bet you’re someone who doesn’t try to find a general algorithm, but will have a huge list of a thousand IF/ELSE statements with custom solutions.
;)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342940</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346738</id>
	<title>Re:Tell us your project?</title>
	<author>Dammital</author>
	<datestamp>1267637040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>These kinds of questions are stupid: "I need to do XYZ for a project, how do I do XYZ?"</p></div></blockquote><p>
There's a technical forum that I frequent where it is rather common for someone to ask "How do I do XYZ", and also rather common for the people who don't know how to do XYZ to demand "what are you trying to accomplish" or "why do you want to do XYZ?"
<br> <br>
If a responder doesn't know how to answer a question, then he should just move along -- not try to change the question to something he <i>does</i> know the answer to.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>These kinds of questions are stupid : " I need to do XYZ for a project , how do I do XYZ ?
" There 's a technical forum that I frequent where it is rather common for someone to ask " How do I do XYZ " , and also rather common for the people who do n't know how to do XYZ to demand " what are you trying to accomplish " or " why do you want to do XYZ ?
" If a responder does n't know how to answer a question , then he should just move along -- not try to change the question to something he does know the answer to .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>These kinds of questions are stupid: "I need to do XYZ for a project, how do I do XYZ?
"
There's a technical forum that I frequent where it is rather common for someone to ask "How do I do XYZ", and also rather common for the people who don't know how to do XYZ to demand "what are you trying to accomplish" or "why do you want to do XYZ?
"
 
If a responder doesn't know how to answer a question, then he should just move along -- not try to change the question to something he does know the answer to.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342940</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31357974</id>
	<title>physical writes to a disk</title>
	<author>paulq11</author>
	<datestamp>1267718460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>First off, without a more detailed description of what the user really wants to do, it is very hard to say whether it is doable. If he wants to write say, an isolated 1 in a stream of 0s at a certain physical location on the media, that will not happen on any modern drive. Many responses have pointed that out. If he wants to write a 512 byte block of 'something' at a physical location, that is quite doable. If he wants to write a given frequency pattern to a given spot, that is also doable, but very drive specific. All drives have a manufacturing 'special mode' which allows for physical positioning of the actuator. All drives have commands that allow special patterns to be written.
Modern disk drives are very complex. The amount of effort required to reverse engineer the controller hardware and firmware of a given drive would be huge. I have worked in the disk drive industry for over 20 years. Don't listen to folks that tell you 'Steve Gibson can do it'. He can't.
There are people in San Jose, Colorado, Rochester, etc that do this stuff every day. It is not easy.</htmltext>
<tokenext>First off , without a more detailed description of what the user really wants to do , it is very hard to say whether it is doable .
If he wants to write say , an isolated 1 in a stream of 0s at a certain physical location on the media , that will not happen on any modern drive .
Many responses have pointed that out .
If he wants to write a 512 byte block of 'something ' at a physical location , that is quite doable .
If he wants to write a given frequency pattern to a given spot , that is also doable , but very drive specific .
All drives have a manufacturing 'special mode ' which allows for physical positioning of the actuator .
All drives have commands that allow special patterns to be written .
Modern disk drives are very complex .
The amount of effort required to reverse engineer the controller hardware and firmware of a given drive would be huge .
I have worked in the disk drive industry for over 20 years .
Do n't listen to folks that tell you 'Steve Gibson can do it' .
He ca n't .
There are people in San Jose , Colorado , Rochester , etc that do this stuff every day .
It is not easy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First off, without a more detailed description of what the user really wants to do, it is very hard to say whether it is doable.
If he wants to write say, an isolated 1 in a stream of 0s at a certain physical location on the media, that will not happen on any modern drive.
Many responses have pointed that out.
If he wants to write a 512 byte block of 'something' at a physical location, that is quite doable.
If he wants to write a given frequency pattern to a given spot, that is also doable, but very drive specific.
All drives have a manufacturing 'special mode' which allows for physical positioning of the actuator.
All drives have commands that allow special patterns to be written.
Modern disk drives are very complex.
The amount of effort required to reverse engineer the controller hardware and firmware of a given drive would be huge.
I have worked in the disk drive industry for over 20 years.
Don't listen to folks that tell you 'Steve Gibson can do it'.
He can't.
There are people in San Jose, Colorado, Rochester, etc that do this stuff every day.
It is not easy.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344350</id>
	<title>Easy Solution?</title>
	<author>RavenChild</author>
	<datestamp>1267626480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>1. Just get any disk. <br>
2. Format with a FS that allows filesizes as big as the drive.  <br>
3. Create a contiguous flat file on the drive. <br>
4.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...<br>
5. Realize you were trying to reinvent a wheel that took &gt;40 years to make in the first place?</htmltext>
<tokenext>1 .
Just get any disk .
2. Format with a FS that allows filesizes as big as the drive .
3. Create a contiguous flat file on the drive .
4. .. . 5. Realize you were trying to reinvent a wheel that took &gt; 40 years to make in the first place ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>1.
Just get any disk.
2. Format with a FS that allows filesizes as big as the drive.
3. Create a contiguous flat file on the drive.
4. ...
5. Realize you were trying to reinvent a wheel that took &gt;40 years to make in the first place?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342894</id>
	<title>Re:How about</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267615920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They (the bits you write to your typical<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/dev/sd* device) would still be wrapped up in sectors, the sectors be enhanced with error correction, then encoded (NRZ, Manchester or whatever is appropriate to the magnetic storage) and then written out. What OP wanted is to manipulate the bit that comes out of encoding. Given the usual stack of SCSI-like commands (and not direct access to the write head signal as early HDD controllers had) this does not seem feasible.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They ( the bits you write to your typical /dev/sd * device ) would still be wrapped up in sectors , the sectors be enhanced with error correction , then encoded ( NRZ , Manchester or whatever is appropriate to the magnetic storage ) and then written out .
What OP wanted is to manipulate the bit that comes out of encoding .
Given the usual stack of SCSI-like commands ( and not direct access to the write head signal as early HDD controllers had ) this does not seem feasible .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They (the bits you write to your typical /dev/sd* device) would still be wrapped up in sectors, the sectors be enhanced with error correction, then encoded (NRZ, Manchester or whatever is appropriate to the magnetic storage) and then written out.
What OP wanted is to manipulate the bit that comes out of encoding.
Given the usual stack of SCSI-like commands (and not direct access to the write head signal as early HDD controllers had) this does not seem feasible.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342858</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343280</id>
	<title>Re:Tell us your project?</title>
	<author>Scutter</author>
	<datestamp>1267619460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>These kinds of questions are stupid: "I need to do XYZ for a project, how do I do XYZ?", where XYZ is one or more of complicated, ridiculous, vague, nonsensical, etc. Try telling us what your project is, and then we might be able to suggest a useful solution, possibly not involving XYZ at all, or involving a very particular/practical version of XYZ.</p></div><p>Except he doesn't want your alternate solution.  He wants the solution he requested.  If you don't know of a way to do it, then move on.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>These kinds of questions are stupid : " I need to do XYZ for a project , how do I do XYZ ?
" , where XYZ is one or more of complicated , ridiculous , vague , nonsensical , etc .
Try telling us what your project is , and then we might be able to suggest a useful solution , possibly not involving XYZ at all , or involving a very particular/practical version of XYZ.Except he does n't want your alternate solution .
He wants the solution he requested .
If you do n't know of a way to do it , then move on .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>These kinds of questions are stupid: "I need to do XYZ for a project, how do I do XYZ?
", where XYZ is one or more of complicated, ridiculous, vague, nonsensical, etc.
Try telling us what your project is, and then we might be able to suggest a useful solution, possibly not involving XYZ at all, or involving a very particular/practical version of XYZ.Except he doesn't want your alternate solution.
He wants the solution he requested.
If you don't know of a way to do it, then move on.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342940</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31347100</id>
	<title>Hopefully you're good at Assembly Language</title>
	<author>yxyband</author>
	<datestamp>1267638420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Kidcharles:

You can do it but you'll need:

A) lots of experience with ASM
B) Controller's Hardware Tech. Manual (you control the controller), your BIOS Tech. Manual, your OS Tech. Manual
C) A debugging hardware board and/or a couple of machines to work on.
D) You should at least have some experience using BIOS INT 13h calls

You may be able to accomplish what you want with just the BIOS INT 13h calls (INT stands for interrupt) which allows some pretty specific disk access.
Generally how raw write/reads are done.

You can also expect quite a few low level formats from making mistakes.

Hope that helps some</htmltext>
<tokenext>Kidcharles : You can do it but you 'll need : A ) lots of experience with ASM B ) Controller 's Hardware Tech .
Manual ( you control the controller ) , your BIOS Tech .
Manual , your OS Tech .
Manual C ) A debugging hardware board and/or a couple of machines to work on .
D ) You should at least have some experience using BIOS INT 13h calls You may be able to accomplish what you want with just the BIOS INT 13h calls ( INT stands for interrupt ) which allows some pretty specific disk access .
Generally how raw write/reads are done .
You can also expect quite a few low level formats from making mistakes .
Hope that helps some</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Kidcharles:

You can do it but you'll need:

A) lots of experience with ASM
B) Controller's Hardware Tech.
Manual (you control the controller), your BIOS Tech.
Manual, your OS Tech.
Manual
C) A debugging hardware board and/or a couple of machines to work on.
D) You should at least have some experience using BIOS INT 13h calls

You may be able to accomplish what you want with just the BIOS INT 13h calls (INT stands for interrupt) which allows some pretty specific disk access.
Generally how raw write/reads are done.
You can also expect quite a few low level formats from making mistakes.
Hope that helps some</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343800</id>
	<title>I'm working on a project...</title>
	<author>Beorytis</author>
	<datestamp>1267623180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm working on a project that will require me to hire someone experienced in hard disk drive physical systems, encoding and controller firmware.  I'm posting a question to Slashdot that resembles the kind of idiotic question that typically comes from a pointy-haired boss so I can offer the job to the person who posts the most rational, knowledgeable and nonconfrontational answer.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm working on a project that will require me to hire someone experienced in hard disk drive physical systems , encoding and controller firmware .
I 'm posting a question to Slashdot that resembles the kind of idiotic question that typically comes from a pointy-haired boss so I can offer the job to the person who posts the most rational , knowledgeable and nonconfrontational answer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm working on a project that will require me to hire someone experienced in hard disk drive physical systems, encoding and controller firmware.
I'm posting a question to Slashdot that resembles the kind of idiotic question that typically comes from a pointy-haired boss so I can offer the job to the person who posts the most rational, knowledgeable and nonconfrontational answer.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344696</id>
	<title>serial port</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267628220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>http://sites.google.com/site/seagatefix/<br>http://forum.hddguru.com/seagate-terminal-commands-t6411.html<br>Some seagate drives have a serial port that you can mess with the drive controller directly.  If you can do what you want, I dunno.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //sites.google.com/site/seagatefix/http : //forum.hddguru.com/seagate-terminal-commands-t6411.htmlSome seagate drives have a serial port that you can mess with the drive controller directly .
If you can do what you want , I dunno .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://sites.google.com/site/seagatefix/http://forum.hddguru.com/seagate-terminal-commands-t6411.htmlSome seagate drives have a serial port that you can mess with the drive controller directly.
If you can do what you want, I dunno.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31365558</id>
	<title>Re:A real (but expensive) solution:</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267710900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It doesn't have to be that expensive.</p><p>First buy a hard drive. Then carefully dis-assemble the case and expose the drive platters and read write heads. Using a torx screwdriver disassemble the head actuator so that you can move the heads completely off the drive and remove them.</p><p>Next disassemble the spindle retention ring. Usually there is a spring clip which uncovers a press fit bearing and dust guard. There is a sort of weird pad like thing that has some lubricant on it (it drips lubricant over the platters during the life of the drive.</p><p>Remove the spindle bearing cap and disassmble the platter retention rings. You should be able to lift the platter(s) straight up and out of the case. You now have the hard disk out where you can manipulate it.</p><p>Now the easiest thing to do for this next step is to re-use one of the read/write heads that were on the drive, however if you don't care how much surface area the bits take up on the platter you can make your own head (note that the existing heads are probably set up for perpindicular recording).</p><p>You will want to connect a signal to the read write heads, Normally at the front is an erase head and then the write head and then the read head. These will look like on the drive head like three little "gaps". When the drive is rotating and it starts writing it usually turns on all three where it erases, then writes, then reads to verify that what it is writing is actually being written. During a read operation usually only the read head is active.</p><p>Depending on how precisely you need to place the ones and zeros you can use either a magnifying glass, a steroscopic microscope, on a scanning electron microscope, to push the head to exactly where you want to write. Often a drive is "erased" to zeros so you really only have write ones and you can assume that where do you didn't write is still zero.</p><p>Now by moving the head to each place where you want to write a one, and then energizing the coil in the write head with just enough current to cause the magnetic domain to flip (you will probably have to use trial and error here to get it to work reliably) you can write your one bits. You won't be able to see them so its important that you remember where your wrote them.</p><p>I suggest a piece of paper where you trace the outline of the disk (be sure and mark one part of the edge as the "top") and then when you write a one bit you can use a pen or pencil to note on the traced outline where you wrote it.</p><p>Depending on how carefully you can move the head around you can probably write several thousand one bits. Usually the head would "float" a small distance over the disk platter as the platter turned but since you are only concerned with writing ones and zeros as specific places I think you can just rest the head on the surface of the platter when use it to write the bits.</p><p>Once you have all the bits where you want them, what do you plan to do with the disk?</p><p>--Chuck</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It does n't have to be that expensive.First buy a hard drive .
Then carefully dis-assemble the case and expose the drive platters and read write heads .
Using a torx screwdriver disassemble the head actuator so that you can move the heads completely off the drive and remove them.Next disassemble the spindle retention ring .
Usually there is a spring clip which uncovers a press fit bearing and dust guard .
There is a sort of weird pad like thing that has some lubricant on it ( it drips lubricant over the platters during the life of the drive.Remove the spindle bearing cap and disassmble the platter retention rings .
You should be able to lift the platter ( s ) straight up and out of the case .
You now have the hard disk out where you can manipulate it.Now the easiest thing to do for this next step is to re-use one of the read/write heads that were on the drive , however if you do n't care how much surface area the bits take up on the platter you can make your own head ( note that the existing heads are probably set up for perpindicular recording ) .You will want to connect a signal to the read write heads , Normally at the front is an erase head and then the write head and then the read head .
These will look like on the drive head like three little " gaps " .
When the drive is rotating and it starts writing it usually turns on all three where it erases , then writes , then reads to verify that what it is writing is actually being written .
During a read operation usually only the read head is active.Depending on how precisely you need to place the ones and zeros you can use either a magnifying glass , a steroscopic microscope , on a scanning electron microscope , to push the head to exactly where you want to write .
Often a drive is " erased " to zeros so you really only have write ones and you can assume that where do you did n't write is still zero.Now by moving the head to each place where you want to write a one , and then energizing the coil in the write head with just enough current to cause the magnetic domain to flip ( you will probably have to use trial and error here to get it to work reliably ) you can write your one bits .
You wo n't be able to see them so its important that you remember where your wrote them.I suggest a piece of paper where you trace the outline of the disk ( be sure and mark one part of the edge as the " top " ) and then when you write a one bit you can use a pen or pencil to note on the traced outline where you wrote it.Depending on how carefully you can move the head around you can probably write several thousand one bits .
Usually the head would " float " a small distance over the disk platter as the platter turned but since you are only concerned with writing ones and zeros as specific places I think you can just rest the head on the surface of the platter when use it to write the bits.Once you have all the bits where you want them , what do you plan to do with the disk ? --Chuck</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It doesn't have to be that expensive.First buy a hard drive.
Then carefully dis-assemble the case and expose the drive platters and read write heads.
Using a torx screwdriver disassemble the head actuator so that you can move the heads completely off the drive and remove them.Next disassemble the spindle retention ring.
Usually there is a spring clip which uncovers a press fit bearing and dust guard.
There is a sort of weird pad like thing that has some lubricant on it (it drips lubricant over the platters during the life of the drive.Remove the spindle bearing cap and disassmble the platter retention rings.
You should be able to lift the platter(s) straight up and out of the case.
You now have the hard disk out where you can manipulate it.Now the easiest thing to do for this next step is to re-use one of the read/write heads that were on the drive, however if you don't care how much surface area the bits take up on the platter you can make your own head (note that the existing heads are probably set up for perpindicular recording).You will want to connect a signal to the read write heads, Normally at the front is an erase head and then the write head and then the read head.
These will look like on the drive head like three little "gaps".
When the drive is rotating and it starts writing it usually turns on all three where it erases, then writes, then reads to verify that what it is writing is actually being written.
During a read operation usually only the read head is active.Depending on how precisely you need to place the ones and zeros you can use either a magnifying glass, a steroscopic microscope, on a scanning electron microscope, to push the head to exactly where you want to write.
Often a drive is "erased" to zeros so you really only have write ones and you can assume that where do you didn't write is still zero.Now by moving the head to each place where you want to write a one, and then energizing the coil in the write head with just enough current to cause the magnetic domain to flip (you will probably have to use trial and error here to get it to work reliably) you can write your one bits.
You won't be able to see them so its important that you remember where your wrote them.I suggest a piece of paper where you trace the outline of the disk (be sure and mark one part of the edge as the "top") and then when you write a one bit you can use a pen or pencil to note on the traced outline where you wrote it.Depending on how carefully you can move the head around you can probably write several thousand one bits.
Usually the head would "float" a small distance over the disk platter as the platter turned but since you are only concerned with writing ones and zeros as specific places I think you can just rest the head on the surface of the platter when use it to write the bits.Once you have all the bits where you want them, what do you plan to do with the disk?--Chuck</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343474</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344978</id>
	<title>Re:DD</title>
	<author>quadelirus</author>
	<datestamp>1267629540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Hahaha how cute. This college student knows even less than the high school student he is making fun of and so resorts to mudslinging. And smug as we</htmltext>
<tokenext>Hahaha how cute .
This college student knows even less than the high school student he is making fun of and so resorts to mudslinging .
And smug as we</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hahaha how cute.
This college student knows even less than the high school student he is making fun of and so resorts to mudslinging.
And smug as we</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343150</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31353050</id>
	<title>Just use a floppy drive</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267624800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just use a piece of old technology that's still available to buy.</p><p>Use a floppy disc instead of a hard disc.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just use a piece of old technology that 's still available to buy.Use a floppy disc instead of a hard disc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just use a piece of old technology that's still available to buy.Use a floppy disc instead of a hard disc.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31365398</id>
	<title>Dear God, please.....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267709940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>.... tell me you are not working for a HDD manufacturer....?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>.... tell me you are not working for a HDD manufacturer.... ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>.... tell me you are not working for a HDD manufacturer....?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345008</id>
	<title>Visualizing disk activity</title>
	<author>rwa2</author>
	<datestamp>1267629720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>On a related note, anyone know of a utility that will let us visualize what the disk is doing?  (Other than those disk drives with little windows over the read heads, that is<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:P )</p><p>I'm sort of looking for something like one of the old DOS/Win3.11 defragger (maybe it came with Stacker?) that showed the layout of used blocks and which ones the defragger was reading and writing to put everything back in order again.  I suppose the current Windows defrag utility still sort of works like this, but it's not quite as interesting to watch.</p><p>I'd love to be able to tap into the Linux kernel and just watch the read and write patterns as the system is working.  Might also be marginally useful for seeing where different types of commonly-accessed files sit on the platter, maybe it could help rearrange them to optimize readahead buffer hits.  I'm thinking of hacking together my own thing using strace and fs block lookups, but just wanted to check if there was something that already did most of this.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>On a related note , anyone know of a utility that will let us visualize what the disk is doing ?
( Other than those disk drives with little windows over the read heads , that is : P ) I 'm sort of looking for something like one of the old DOS/Win3.11 defragger ( maybe it came with Stacker ?
) that showed the layout of used blocks and which ones the defragger was reading and writing to put everything back in order again .
I suppose the current Windows defrag utility still sort of works like this , but it 's not quite as interesting to watch.I 'd love to be able to tap into the Linux kernel and just watch the read and write patterns as the system is working .
Might also be marginally useful for seeing where different types of commonly-accessed files sit on the platter , maybe it could help rearrange them to optimize readahead buffer hits .
I 'm thinking of hacking together my own thing using strace and fs block lookups , but just wanted to check if there was something that already did most of this .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On a related note, anyone know of a utility that will let us visualize what the disk is doing?
(Other than those disk drives with little windows over the read heads, that is :P )I'm sort of looking for something like one of the old DOS/Win3.11 defragger (maybe it came with Stacker?
) that showed the layout of used blocks and which ones the defragger was reading and writing to put everything back in order again.
I suppose the current Windows defrag utility still sort of works like this, but it's not quite as interesting to watch.I'd love to be able to tap into the Linux kernel and just watch the read and write patterns as the system is working.
Might also be marginally useful for seeing where different types of commonly-accessed files sit on the platter, maybe it could help rearrange them to optimize readahead buffer hits.
I'm thinking of hacking together my own thing using strace and fs block lookups, but just wanted to check if there was something that already did most of this.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343986</id>
	<title>Can't be done  -- the physics</title>
	<author>Ancient\_Hacker</author>
	<datestamp>1267624380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>First of all, you don't write "ones" and "zeroes" on a surface.    The only thing you can write are flux transitions, changes from north to south magnetic polarity and back.  In order to be able to write and then read them back you also have to add clocking transitions and DC-restoration transitions.  It takes a fair amount of sophisticated analog and digital electronics to do the writing and reading.  The digital parts are semi-programmable, but the analog parts are not-- you're stuck with writing and reading the type of flux transitions that the analog electronics is optimized for.</p><p>I can't imagine why you think you *have to* be able to write a particular pattern.  Unless you're going to use the platter to test out some kind of magnetic imaging camera.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>First of all , you do n't write " ones " and " zeroes " on a surface .
The only thing you can write are flux transitions , changes from north to south magnetic polarity and back .
In order to be able to write and then read them back you also have to add clocking transitions and DC-restoration transitions .
It takes a fair amount of sophisticated analog and digital electronics to do the writing and reading .
The digital parts are semi-programmable , but the analog parts are not-- you 're stuck with writing and reading the type of flux transitions that the analog electronics is optimized for.I ca n't imagine why you think you * have to * be able to write a particular pattern .
Unless you 're going to use the platter to test out some kind of magnetic imaging camera .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First of all, you don't write "ones" and "zeroes" on a surface.
The only thing you can write are flux transitions, changes from north to south magnetic polarity and back.
In order to be able to write and then read them back you also have to add clocking transitions and DC-restoration transitions.
It takes a fair amount of sophisticated analog and digital electronics to do the writing and reading.
The digital parts are semi-programmable, but the analog parts are not-- you're stuck with writing and reading the type of flux transitions that the analog electronics is optimized for.I can't imagine why you think you *have to* be able to write a particular pattern.
Unless you're going to use the platter to test out some kind of magnetic imaging camera.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344610</id>
	<title>Re:Tell us your project?</title>
	<author>Hognoxious</author>
	<datestamp>1267627740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Except he doesn't want your alternate solution. He wants the solution he requested.</p></div> </blockquote><p>And I want a pony.  Point is, nobody at all can understand a good reason for doing it, so that tends to make people think he's jumped prematurely to a diagnosis - fussing about "how" before he's really sure "what".</p><p>He's stating a half-assed solution, rather than expressing what the problem is - for which the best solution might be entirely different.</p><p><a href="http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#goal" title="catb.org" rel="nofollow">http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#goal</a> [catb.org]</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Except he does n't want your alternate solution .
He wants the solution he requested .
And I want a pony .
Point is , nobody at all can understand a good reason for doing it , so that tends to make people think he 's jumped prematurely to a diagnosis - fussing about " how " before he 's really sure " what " .He 's stating a half-assed solution , rather than expressing what the problem is - for which the best solution might be entirely different.http : //catb.org/ ~ esr/faqs/smart-questions.html # goal [ catb.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Except he doesn't want your alternate solution.
He wants the solution he requested.
And I want a pony.
Point is, nobody at all can understand a good reason for doing it, so that tends to make people think he's jumped prematurely to a diagnosis - fussing about "how" before he's really sure "what".He's stating a half-assed solution, rather than expressing what the problem is - for which the best solution might be entirely different.http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#goal [catb.org]
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345142</id>
	<title>Re:Tell us your project?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267630260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Doesn't it seem odd that he's been tasked with a project that absolutely requires very low level control over hardware, but he's asking how to even go about this on Slashdot??</p><p>That suggests to me that this project might not be fully thought out, and that there may very well be an alternative solution that is much more viable.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Does n't it seem odd that he 's been tasked with a project that absolutely requires very low level control over hardware , but he 's asking how to even go about this on Slashdot ?
? That suggests to me that this project might not be fully thought out , and that there may very well be an alternative solution that is much more viable .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Doesn't it seem odd that he's been tasked with a project that absolutely requires very low level control over hardware, but he's asking how to even go about this on Slashdot?
?That suggests to me that this project might not be fully thought out, and that there may very well be an alternative solution that is much more viable.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345088</id>
	<title>Re:That is gonna be hard</title>
	<author>lobsterturd</author>
	<datestamp>1267629960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>For the benefit of the poster, who doesn't seem the type to know what a servo track is:</p><p>A servo track is how the hard drive knows where the heads are over the disk. Older hardware could just read the angle of the arm, but with vast increases in density it became necessary to put position data on the platters themselves where more precision is possible.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>For the benefit of the poster , who does n't seem the type to know what a servo track is : A servo track is how the hard drive knows where the heads are over the disk .
Older hardware could just read the angle of the arm , but with vast increases in density it became necessary to put position data on the platters themselves where more precision is possible .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For the benefit of the poster, who doesn't seem the type to know what a servo track is:A servo track is how the hard drive knows where the heads are over the disk.
Older hardware could just read the angle of the arm, but with vast increases in density it became necessary to put position data on the platters themselves where more precision is possible.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342848</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345794</id>
	<title>without hacking hardware?</title>
	<author>vile8</author>
	<datestamp>1267632900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>

No idea what your trying to do... art, fast file system, error recovery, special new virus etc... but I'd start in one of two places.
If you are trying to write your own filesystem because everyone else is "doing it wrong" then check out Oracles "unbreakable" installation.... a bit dated and I don't know if they still do it this way, but the gist is you mount the drives with "rawfs" and they have their own file system stack that runs on top. Pretty effective way to trim down the layers of stuff before reads and writes and speed up raw access.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.... again, depends on your implementation if this would be useful to you.

If you actually want to write ones and zeros I'd check the source for fdisk and see what its doing.... might be a gem there since it clearly is aware of geometry and has some access to writing in places you normally wouldn't.

Good luck!</htmltext>
<tokenext>No idea what your trying to do... art , fast file system , error recovery , special new virus etc... but I 'd start in one of two places .
If you are trying to write your own filesystem because everyone else is " doing it wrong " then check out Oracles " unbreakable " installation.... a bit dated and I do n't know if they still do it this way , but the gist is you mount the drives with " rawfs " and they have their own file system stack that runs on top .
Pretty effective way to trim down the layers of stuff before reads and writes and speed up raw access .
.... again , depends on your implementation if this would be useful to you .
If you actually want to write ones and zeros I 'd check the source for fdisk and see what its doing.... might be a gem there since it clearly is aware of geometry and has some access to writing in places you normally would n't .
Good luck !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>

No idea what your trying to do... art, fast file system, error recovery, special new virus etc... but I'd start in one of two places.
If you are trying to write your own filesystem because everyone else is "doing it wrong" then check out Oracles "unbreakable" installation.... a bit dated and I don't know if they still do it this way, but the gist is you mount the drives with "rawfs" and they have their own file system stack that runs on top.
Pretty effective way to trim down the layers of stuff before reads and writes and speed up raw access.
.... again, depends on your implementation if this would be useful to you.
If you actually want to write ones and zeros I'd check the source for fdisk and see what its doing.... might be a gem there since it clearly is aware of geometry and has some access to writing in places you normally wouldn't.
Good luck!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342914</id>
	<title>Some ideas</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267616160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You could try <a href="http://google.com/search?q=metal+chisel" title="google.com" rel="nofollow">this</a> [google.com], or ask yourself again: is this what you really want to do?</p><p>Seriously, you are out of luck. Unless you come across a sympathetic hard drive manufacturer there is very little you can do.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You could try this [ google.com ] , or ask yourself again : is this what you really want to do ? Seriously , you are out of luck .
Unless you come across a sympathetic hard drive manufacturer there is very little you can do .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You could try this [google.com], or ask yourself again: is this what you really want to do?Seriously, you are out of luck.
Unless you come across a sympathetic hard drive manufacturer there is very little you can do.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342840</id>
	<title>No.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267615440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No, there aren't.</p><p>You would need to completely bypass the drive firmware in a way that would make the drive quite unusable afterwards; this is generally not possible in hardware. It's not like they're going to let you control the voice coil circuitry directly as permanent damage to the drive would likely result! This is likely going to be a <i>highly</i> custom solution and you will need special equipment to do it. Contact the drive manufacturers or a very big data recovery specialist.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No , there are n't.You would need to completely bypass the drive firmware in a way that would make the drive quite unusable afterwards ; this is generally not possible in hardware .
It 's not like they 're going to let you control the voice coil circuitry directly as permanent damage to the drive would likely result !
This is likely going to be a highly custom solution and you will need special equipment to do it .
Contact the drive manufacturers or a very big data recovery specialist .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, there aren't.You would need to completely bypass the drive firmware in a way that would make the drive quite unusable afterwards; this is generally not possible in hardware.
It's not like they're going to let you control the voice coil circuitry directly as permanent damage to the drive would likely result!
This is likely going to be a highly custom solution and you will need special equipment to do it.
Contact the drive manufacturers or a very big data recovery specialist.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344040</id>
	<title>What kind of answer do you expect</title>
	<author>hey!</author>
	<datestamp>1267624740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>if you describe your requirements so abstractly? It sounds to me like you've come up with a solution ("Let's write the bits directly to the hard disk") and now you want pointers on how to make it work without explaining why.</p><p>If you just want to get around the file system, then use raw block I/O to the device.  However it *sounds* to me like for some reason you've decided the *actual physical* layout of bits on the drive is important, in which case you are going to have to write your own disk driver -- if the drive electronics themselves don't defeat your attempt to know where bit is physically written.</p><p>It's inconceivable to me that you'd actually need to know this.  Since you only *read* the data through an interface, it should make no difference if you *write* though the same interface, as long as it's consistent. In other words, unless you are going to disassemble the drive and examine it with an atomic force microscope, you have no way of telling the difference between a physical layout and an equivalent *model* of a "physical layout".</p><p>If you can't say *why* you need to do this, at least explain the parameters (how much storage, how fast, what kind of retreival etc.). My first reaction was that you should not use a magnetic disk at all, but an MTD flash device.  Even so, you're dealing with an abstraction.  You have no idea whether the device itself has mapped a bad bit to a different location at the hardware level.  However short of tearing the device apart and putting the flash chips in a special circuit, you'd have no way of telling.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>if you describe your requirements so abstractly ?
It sounds to me like you 've come up with a solution ( " Let 's write the bits directly to the hard disk " ) and now you want pointers on how to make it work without explaining why.If you just want to get around the file system , then use raw block I/O to the device .
However it * sounds * to me like for some reason you 've decided the * actual physical * layout of bits on the drive is important , in which case you are going to have to write your own disk driver -- if the drive electronics themselves do n't defeat your attempt to know where bit is physically written.It 's inconceivable to me that you 'd actually need to know this .
Since you only * read * the data through an interface , it should make no difference if you * write * though the same interface , as long as it 's consistent .
In other words , unless you are going to disassemble the drive and examine it with an atomic force microscope , you have no way of telling the difference between a physical layout and an equivalent * model * of a " physical layout " .If you ca n't say * why * you need to do this , at least explain the parameters ( how much storage , how fast , what kind of retreival etc. ) .
My first reaction was that you should not use a magnetic disk at all , but an MTD flash device .
Even so , you 're dealing with an abstraction .
You have no idea whether the device itself has mapped a bad bit to a different location at the hardware level .
However short of tearing the device apart and putting the flash chips in a special circuit , you 'd have no way of telling .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>if you describe your requirements so abstractly?
It sounds to me like you've come up with a solution ("Let's write the bits directly to the hard disk") and now you want pointers on how to make it work without explaining why.If you just want to get around the file system, then use raw block I/O to the device.
However it *sounds* to me like for some reason you've decided the *actual physical* layout of bits on the drive is important, in which case you are going to have to write your own disk driver -- if the drive electronics themselves don't defeat your attempt to know where bit is physically written.It's inconceivable to me that you'd actually need to know this.
Since you only *read* the data through an interface, it should make no difference if you *write* though the same interface, as long as it's consistent.
In other words, unless you are going to disassemble the drive and examine it with an atomic force microscope, you have no way of telling the difference between a physical layout and an equivalent *model* of a "physical layout".If you can't say *why* you need to do this, at least explain the parameters (how much storage, how fast, what kind of retreival etc.).
My first reaction was that you should not use a magnetic disk at all, but an MTD flash device.
Even so, you're dealing with an abstraction.
You have no idea whether the device itself has mapped a bad bit to a different location at the hardware level.
However short of tearing the device apart and putting the flash chips in a special circuit, you'd have no way of telling.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345004</id>
	<title>Re:Tell us your project?</title>
	<author>cpartrid</author>
	<datestamp>1267629720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you are asking for help it sometimes requires offering a bit of incentive is nice.  Sometimes all the incentive that's needed is an explanation of why?

While there are some people who are happy to spend their time coming up with solutions to acomplish and arbitrary task just for the sake of the challenge, other people would rather not waste their time doing that if the actual problem could have been fixed in an entirely different and esier way.

So it would seem that as the OP you would have more chance of getting a useful reponse if you offered some sort of backgorund.

You should also consider that it might just be the case that the OP would be happy with an alternative solution to the problem if one was forth coming.

Anyway, I know absolutely nothing about HArd Drives at this level so have no useful input.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you are asking for help it sometimes requires offering a bit of incentive is nice .
Sometimes all the incentive that 's needed is an explanation of why ?
While there are some people who are happy to spend their time coming up with solutions to acomplish and arbitrary task just for the sake of the challenge , other people would rather not waste their time doing that if the actual problem could have been fixed in an entirely different and esier way .
So it would seem that as the OP you would have more chance of getting a useful reponse if you offered some sort of backgorund .
You should also consider that it might just be the case that the OP would be happy with an alternative solution to the problem if one was forth coming .
Anyway , I know absolutely nothing about HArd Drives at this level so have no useful input .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you are asking for help it sometimes requires offering a bit of incentive is nice.
Sometimes all the incentive that's needed is an explanation of why?
While there are some people who are happy to spend their time coming up with solutions to acomplish and arbitrary task just for the sake of the challenge, other people would rather not waste their time doing that if the actual problem could have been fixed in an entirely different and esier way.
So it would seem that as the OP you would have more chance of getting a useful reponse if you offered some sort of backgorund.
You should also consider that it might just be the case that the OP would be happy with an alternative solution to the problem if one was forth coming.
Anyway, I know absolutely nothing about HArd Drives at this level so have no useful input.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343508</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343996</id>
	<title>Re:If you have to ask, it's hopeless</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267624440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>lol</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>lol</tokentext>
<sentencetext>lol</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344156</id>
	<title>Re:That is gonna be hard</title>
	<author>makomk</author>
	<datestamp>1267625520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As far as I'm aware, all the manufacturers use special hardware to write the servo tracks - it's just not possible with the drive hardware itself.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As far as I 'm aware , all the manufacturers use special hardware to write the servo tracks - it 's just not possible with the drive hardware itself .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As far as I'm aware, all the manufacturers use special hardware to write the servo tracks - it's just not possible with the drive hardware itself.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342848</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342912</id>
	<title>Wrong.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267616160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>Your requirements are wrong, sorry.
<br> <br>
Yes, I don't what they are.  Still wrong.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Your requirements are wrong , sorry .
Yes , I do n't what they are .
Still wrong .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Your requirements are wrong, sorry.
Yes, I don't what they are.
Still wrong.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343152</id>
	<title>Re:DD</title>
	<author>Slashcrap</author>
	<datestamp>1267618140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I guess the dd utility is not enough for your needs, otherwise you would have already tried it.<br>Right?</p></div><p>I was just thinking that the submitter might be an idiot. Then I read your post. You're definitely an idiot.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I guess the dd utility is not enough for your needs , otherwise you would have already tried it.Right ? I was just thinking that the submitter might be an idiot .
Then I read your post .
You 're definitely an idiot .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I guess the dd utility is not enough for your needs, otherwise you would have already tried it.Right?I was just thinking that the submitter might be an idiot.
Then I read your post.
You're definitely an idiot.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342890</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345402</id>
	<title>Re:Headlines are superfluous</title>
	<author>Idaho</author>
	<datestamp>1267631400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Don't you hate it when people refuse to accept the premise of a technical question and write long monologues why the submitter is working with false assumptions even though they don't know what exactly they are dealing with?</p></div></blockquote><p>In fact no, I hate it more when people do not state their actual purpose, especially in cases where what they are asking combined with the fact that they *need* to ask, cannot prevent one from wondering whether they really understand what they're doing, or whether they are addressing the right problem from the right angle (which, in this case, appears extremely unlikely).</p><p>The problem with this topic is *exactly* that we don't know what we're dealing with, and the first thing any decent engineer would do is to try and figure that out (in fact, you started out to do just that). Surely the stated goal doesn't stop at writing bits in exact locations just for the sake of it, right?</p><p>In fact, if I asked this to a 100 engineers, I'd really expect that at least 99 of them will immediately ask "why the fuck would you want to do that!?". And the one who doesn't probably works at a harddisk manufacturer.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't you hate it when people refuse to accept the premise of a technical question and write long monologues why the submitter is working with false assumptions even though they do n't know what exactly they are dealing with ? In fact no , I hate it more when people do not state their actual purpose , especially in cases where what they are asking combined with the fact that they * need * to ask , can not prevent one from wondering whether they really understand what they 're doing , or whether they are addressing the right problem from the right angle ( which , in this case , appears extremely unlikely ) .The problem with this topic is * exactly * that we do n't know what we 're dealing with , and the first thing any decent engineer would do is to try and figure that out ( in fact , you started out to do just that ) .
Surely the stated goal does n't stop at writing bits in exact locations just for the sake of it , right ? In fact , if I asked this to a 100 engineers , I 'd really expect that at least 99 of them will immediately ask " why the fuck would you want to do that ! ? " .
And the one who does n't probably works at a harddisk manufacturer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't you hate it when people refuse to accept the premise of a technical question and write long monologues why the submitter is working with false assumptions even though they don't know what exactly they are dealing with?In fact no, I hate it more when people do not state their actual purpose, especially in cases where what they are asking combined with the fact that they *need* to ask, cannot prevent one from wondering whether they really understand what they're doing, or whether they are addressing the right problem from the right angle (which, in this case, appears extremely unlikely).The problem with this topic is *exactly* that we don't know what we're dealing with, and the first thing any decent engineer would do is to try and figure that out (in fact, you started out to do just that).
Surely the stated goal doesn't stop at writing bits in exact locations just for the sake of it, right?In fact, if I asked this to a 100 engineers, I'd really expect that at least 99 of them will immediately ask "why the fuck would you want to do that!?".
And the one who doesn't probably works at a harddisk manufacturer.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343536</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345988</id>
	<title>Not really that hard</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267633740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Find a drive that support the old ATA command "WRITE LONG" and "READ LONG". These commands write out the entire sector including the ECC PAD so a sector ends up being 512 bytes (arrange the bits in any order you want) and 8 bytes of ECC (again with Write long just write out 520 bytes of data any order you want). This won't actually put the bits and bytes on the drive exactly because the drive has randomize the data on the platter to ensure reliability, but it will give you more physical control of where the actual data is located on the drive.</p><p>In other words if you put the bits on the drive yourself in something remotely human readable you will have a high failure rate in reading them back correctly.</p><p>The only way around this is to follow the other suggestions and use a really old drive that can literally write the bits to the drive directly without any modern ECC, PRML or any other obstructive acronym.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Find a drive that support the old ATA command " WRITE LONG " and " READ LONG " .
These commands write out the entire sector including the ECC PAD so a sector ends up being 512 bytes ( arrange the bits in any order you want ) and 8 bytes of ECC ( again with Write long just write out 520 bytes of data any order you want ) .
This wo n't actually put the bits and bytes on the drive exactly because the drive has randomize the data on the platter to ensure reliability , but it will give you more physical control of where the actual data is located on the drive.In other words if you put the bits on the drive yourself in something remotely human readable you will have a high failure rate in reading them back correctly.The only way around this is to follow the other suggestions and use a really old drive that can literally write the bits to the drive directly without any modern ECC , PRML or any other obstructive acronym .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Find a drive that support the old ATA command "WRITE LONG" and "READ LONG".
These commands write out the entire sector including the ECC PAD so a sector ends up being 512 bytes (arrange the bits in any order you want) and 8 bytes of ECC (again with Write long just write out 520 bytes of data any order you want).
This won't actually put the bits and bytes on the drive exactly because the drive has randomize the data on the platter to ensure reliability, but it will give you more physical control of where the actual data is located on the drive.In other words if you put the bits on the drive yourself in something remotely human readable you will have a high failure rate in reading them back correctly.The only way around this is to follow the other suggestions and use a really old drive that can literally write the bits to the drive directly without any modern ECC, PRML or any other obstructive acronym.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31350272</id>
	<title>Re:If you have to ask, it's hopeless</title>
	<author>Josef Meixner</author>
	<datestamp>1267610100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>in order to write individual 1/0, after all they had a solution that worked 40-50 years ago.</p></div></blockquote><p>Sorry, but that is simply not true. Not even with MFM you could control the exact layout of 0 and 1. A 1 is signaled by a level change, the zero just keeps the last level. There are limits on how long you can go on without a level change (the level change is used to synchronize the clock). So even that stone old technology wouldn't work in the specified way, after a certain "number" (rather length depending on the clock of the system) of one kind of magnetic domain a change has to occur. And as long as the system doesn't have an alternate system to get the clock information, you will always run into the same issue. You could perhaps use one platter as "clock platter", but if that would work with the heads, I have no clue. In the past I doubt anybody would have used something like that as it wastes a lot of space.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>in order to write individual 1/0 , after all they had a solution that worked 40-50 years ago.Sorry , but that is simply not true .
Not even with MFM you could control the exact layout of 0 and 1 .
A 1 is signaled by a level change , the zero just keeps the last level .
There are limits on how long you can go on without a level change ( the level change is used to synchronize the clock ) .
So even that stone old technology would n't work in the specified way , after a certain " number " ( rather length depending on the clock of the system ) of one kind of magnetic domain a change has to occur .
And as long as the system does n't have an alternate system to get the clock information , you will always run into the same issue .
You could perhaps use one platter as " clock platter " , but if that would work with the heads , I have no clue .
In the past I doubt anybody would have used something like that as it wastes a lot of space .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>in order to write individual 1/0, after all they had a solution that worked 40-50 years ago.Sorry, but that is simply not true.
Not even with MFM you could control the exact layout of 0 and 1.
A 1 is signaled by a level change, the zero just keeps the last level.
There are limits on how long you can go on without a level change (the level change is used to synchronize the clock).
So even that stone old technology wouldn't work in the specified way, after a certain "number" (rather length depending on the clock of the system) of one kind of magnetic domain a change has to occur.
And as long as the system doesn't have an alternate system to get the clock information, you will always run into the same issue.
You could perhaps use one platter as "clock platter", but if that would work with the heads, I have no clue.
In the past I doubt anybody would have used something like that as it wastes a lot of space.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344232</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344644</id>
	<title>Cooked Space vs. Raw Space</title>
	<author>willy everlearn</author>
	<datestamp>1267627920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ok, Maybe I missed something (not unusual) but is not the question about cooked space (file system i.e. ext2, fat, ntfs.....so on and so forth) versus raw space (many databases write their own proprietary format)?  Oracle does it, so do other open source databases I believe.  Or did my train for thought derail?<br>http://www.google.com/#hl=en&amp;q=cooked+space+vs+raw+space+database</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ok , Maybe I missed something ( not unusual ) but is not the question about cooked space ( file system i.e .
ext2 , fat , ntfs.....so on and so forth ) versus raw space ( many databases write their own proprietary format ) ?
Oracle does it , so do other open source databases I believe .
Or did my train for thought derail ? http : //www.google.com/ # hl = en&amp;q = cooked + space + vs + raw + space + database</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ok, Maybe I missed something (not unusual) but is not the question about cooked space (file system i.e.
ext2, fat, ntfs.....so on and so forth) versus raw space (many databases write their own proprietary format)?
Oracle does it, so do other open source databases I believe.
Or did my train for thought derail?http://www.google.com/#hl=en&amp;q=cooked+space+vs+raw+space+database</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342958</id>
	<title>Talk to  Steve Gibson author of Spinrite</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267616520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The person who would probably know for sure if it is even possible to achieve that level of control is  Steve Gibson from grc.com, the author of Spinrite <a href="http://www.grc.com/sr/spinrite.htm" title="grc.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.grc.com/sr/spinrite.htm</a> [grc.com]. Spinrite has some amazing low level hard drive access, that it uses for data recovery and drive maintenance.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The person who would probably know for sure if it is even possible to achieve that level of control is Steve Gibson from grc.com , the author of Spinrite http : //www.grc.com/sr/spinrite.htm [ grc.com ] .
Spinrite has some amazing low level hard drive access , that it uses for data recovery and drive maintenance .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The person who would probably know for sure if it is even possible to achieve that level of control is  Steve Gibson from grc.com, the author of Spinrite http://www.grc.com/sr/spinrite.htm [grc.com].
Spinrite has some amazing low level hard drive access, that it uses for data recovery and drive maintenance.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343582</id>
	<title>Just call Seagate tech support.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267621800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They won't understand what you're asking and won't be able to help in the slightest, but please record the call for us.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They wo n't understand what you 're asking and wo n't be able to help in the slightest , but please record the call for us .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They won't understand what you're asking and won't be able to help in the slightest, but please record the call for us.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31347168</id>
	<title>Re:You're doing it wrong!</title>
	<author>SuperQ</author>
	<datestamp>1267638720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>After thinking about the original question a bit, I think the only actual goal here is to turn off sector re-mapping to prevent absurd seeking when streaming data to/from the disk.  But as many other people have posted, most of what is being asked for is completely impossible with modern drives.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>After thinking about the original question a bit , I think the only actual goal here is to turn off sector re-mapping to prevent absurd seeking when streaming data to/from the disk .
But as many other people have posted , most of what is being asked for is completely impossible with modern drives .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>After thinking about the original question a bit, I think the only actual goal here is to turn off sector re-mapping to prevent absurd seeking when streaming data to/from the disk.
But as many other people have posted, most of what is being asked for is completely impossible with modern drives.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343020</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342932</id>
	<title>Butterflies</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267616280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><a href="http://xkcd.com/378/" title="xkcd.com" rel="nofollow">Obligatory</a> [xkcd.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>Obligatory [ xkcd.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Obligatory [xkcd.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345262</id>
	<title>Re:That's nothing!</title>
	<author>BetterSense</author>
	<datestamp>1267630860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Just make sure you have something equivalent to exchange, or it might end up costing you an arm and a leg.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Just make sure you have something equivalent to exchange , or it might end up costing you an arm and a leg .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just make sure you have something equivalent to exchange, or it might end up costing you an arm and a leg.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343348</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345504</id>
	<title>Re:Be careful!</title>
	<author>gardyloo</author>
	<datestamp>1267631880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Oh, hell yeah. Sometimes on a slow day, when there's little wind and a crowd outside the building, my colleagues will send around a bunch of emails full of ones. The cables outside twist and swing, and people look around for the source of wind.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Those recent communication satellite crashes? Too many ones got in their relay buffers, weighing them down and destabilizing their orbits.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Oh , hell yeah .
Sometimes on a slow day , when there 's little wind and a crowd outside the building , my colleagues will send around a bunch of emails full of ones .
The cables outside twist and swing , and people look around for the source of wind .
    Those recent communication satellite crashes ?
Too many ones got in their relay buffers , weighing them down and destabilizing their orbits .
     </tokentext>
<sentencetext>Oh, hell yeah.
Sometimes on a slow day, when there's little wind and a crowd outside the building, my colleagues will send around a bunch of emails full of ones.
The cables outside twist and swing, and people look around for the source of wind.
    Those recent communication satellite crashes?
Too many ones got in their relay buffers, weighing them down and destabilizing their orbits.
     </sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342918</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343920</id>
	<title>Scott Moulton</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267623900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, there are ways to do this.  I'd start by taking the SANS data recovery class taught by Scott Moulton.</p><p>His website has a lot of info, too:<br>http://www.myharddrivedied.com/</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , there are ways to do this .
I 'd start by taking the SANS data recovery class taught by Scott Moulton.His website has a lot of info , too : http : //www.myharddrivedied.com/</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, there are ways to do this.
I'd start by taking the SANS data recovery class taught by Scott Moulton.His website has a lot of info, too:http://www.myharddrivedied.com/</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344844</id>
	<title>Please help.  I'll change my life.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267629000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm working on a project that need to deliver last year.  Does anyone know of a free time machine or at least a open api whereupon I can build one.  I don't mind if it takes a long time to complete as long as success is guaranteed.</p><p>Thanks in advance.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm working on a project that need to deliver last year .
Does anyone know of a free time machine or at least a open api whereupon I can build one .
I do n't mind if it takes a long time to complete as long as success is guaranteed.Thanks in advance .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm working on a project that need to deliver last year.
Does anyone know of a free time machine or at least a open api whereupon I can build one.
I don't mind if it takes a long time to complete as long as success is guaranteed.Thanks in advance.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342876</id>
	<title>Your own Disk controller chipset?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267615800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you don't need lots of bytes, you should use an old disk. I mean very old, maybe going back to those 300-400MB disks we had on 486 computers or even older.</p><p>Recent disks have embedded error-handling mechanisms which will prevent you from writing what you want, where you want (physically speaking of course). The disk controller translates your "physical" disk addresses into its own internal mappings. The only way to bypass this would be to remove the disk controller's chip and put your own in place.</p><p>Maybe your question would be: "how hard is it to create my own disk controller's chipset?"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you do n't need lots of bytes , you should use an old disk .
I mean very old , maybe going back to those 300-400MB disks we had on 486 computers or even older.Recent disks have embedded error-handling mechanisms which will prevent you from writing what you want , where you want ( physically speaking of course ) .
The disk controller translates your " physical " disk addresses into its own internal mappings .
The only way to bypass this would be to remove the disk controller 's chip and put your own in place.Maybe your question would be : " how hard is it to create my own disk controller 's chipset ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you don't need lots of bytes, you should use an old disk.
I mean very old, maybe going back to those 300-400MB disks we had on 486 computers or even older.Recent disks have embedded error-handling mechanisms which will prevent you from writing what you want, where you want (physically speaking of course).
The disk controller translates your "physical" disk addresses into its own internal mappings.
The only way to bypass this would be to remove the disk controller's chip and put your own in place.Maybe your question would be: "how hard is it to create my own disk controller's chipset?
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345926</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>Pentium100</author>
	<datestamp>1267633440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Remember? I have one such drive (though somebody removed a chip from it before giving it to me). I still hope that one day I can buy a similar drive, replace the electronics on this one and bring this drive back to life.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Remember ?
I have one such drive ( though somebody removed a chip from it before giving it to me ) .
I still hope that one day I can buy a similar drive , replace the electronics on this one and bring this drive back to life .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Remember?
I have one such drive (though somebody removed a chip from it before giving it to me).
I still hope that one day I can buy a similar drive, replace the electronics on this one and bring this drive back to life.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344270</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344992</id>
	<title>Re:If you have to ask, it's hopeless</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267629660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Also keep in mind that some sectors in modern hard drives are reserved for the drive to boot.  You wont be able to control all the sectors.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Also keep in mind that some sectors in modern hard drives are reserved for the drive to boot .
You wont be able to control all the sectors .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Also keep in mind that some sectors in modern hard drives are reserved for the drive to boot.
You wont be able to control all the sectors.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342942</id>
	<title>If you have to ask, it's hopeless</title>
	<author>vadim\_t</author>
	<datestamp>1267616400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"I'm working on a project to build a nuclear powerplant. Is there documentation on how to do it? Obviously a free and open source solution would be preferable, but I'm open to anything at this point."</p><p>It seems to me that if you're involved in such a project and have to ask how to do it, it's doomed.</p><p>Also, the whole idea of it seems rather impossible. Why would you <em>want</em> to do this in the first place? Have in mind that hard disks don't write bits as is, not just because of ECC. They use an encoding to ensure that there are no long strings of 1s or 0s. If you just wrote some data without regards to that you'd run into a sequence you'd be unable to read later, due to not having a clock signal to figure out where a bit ends and the next begins.</p><p>Modern hard disks <em>require</em> using special encodings and servo data in order to be readable at those densities. It just makes little sense to me to want to bypass it. Unless you're working for a disk manufacturer this just seems very odd, but in that case you'd have access to the required equipment and information.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" I 'm working on a project to build a nuclear powerplant .
Is there documentation on how to do it ?
Obviously a free and open source solution would be preferable , but I 'm open to anything at this point .
" It seems to me that if you 're involved in such a project and have to ask how to do it , it 's doomed.Also , the whole idea of it seems rather impossible .
Why would you want to do this in the first place ?
Have in mind that hard disks do n't write bits as is , not just because of ECC .
They use an encoding to ensure that there are no long strings of 1s or 0s .
If you just wrote some data without regards to that you 'd run into a sequence you 'd be unable to read later , due to not having a clock signal to figure out where a bit ends and the next begins.Modern hard disks require using special encodings and servo data in order to be readable at those densities .
It just makes little sense to me to want to bypass it .
Unless you 're working for a disk manufacturer this just seems very odd , but in that case you 'd have access to the required equipment and information .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"I'm working on a project to build a nuclear powerplant.
Is there documentation on how to do it?
Obviously a free and open source solution would be preferable, but I'm open to anything at this point.
"It seems to me that if you're involved in such a project and have to ask how to do it, it's doomed.Also, the whole idea of it seems rather impossible.
Why would you want to do this in the first place?
Have in mind that hard disks don't write bits as is, not just because of ECC.
They use an encoding to ensure that there are no long strings of 1s or 0s.
If you just wrote some data without regards to that you'd run into a sequence you'd be unable to read later, due to not having a clock signal to figure out where a bit ends and the next begins.Modern hard disks require using special encodings and servo data in order to be readable at those densities.
It just makes little sense to me to want to bypass it.
Unless you're working for a disk manufacturer this just seems very odd, but in that case you'd have access to the required equipment and information.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31351206</id>
	<title>Re:Tell us your project?</title>
	<author>Carnildo</author>
	<datestamp>1267614480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Except he doesn't want your alternate solution. He wants the solution he requested. If you don't know of a way to do it, then move on.</p></div></blockquote><p>Except that odds are he <i>doesn't</i> want the solution he requested.  Odds are, he wants to accomplish some higher-level task, and has prematurely decided that writing bits directly to a hard drive platter is how to do so.</p><p>I frequent a Macintosh programming forum.  It's very common for people to ask "how do I do X?" (the usual formulation is "how do I get another program's window?"), where the correct answer is "you can't".  After a few days of back-and-forth, it usually develops that X is a low-level step in accomplishing some higher-level task in Windows, and the question the person wanted to ask is about something quite doable on MacOS, such as "How do I send synthesized keystrokes to another program?" or "how do I hide another program?".</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Except he does n't want your alternate solution .
He wants the solution he requested .
If you do n't know of a way to do it , then move on.Except that odds are he does n't want the solution he requested .
Odds are , he wants to accomplish some higher-level task , and has prematurely decided that writing bits directly to a hard drive platter is how to do so.I frequent a Macintosh programming forum .
It 's very common for people to ask " how do I do X ?
" ( the usual formulation is " how do I get another program 's window ?
" ) , where the correct answer is " you ca n't " .
After a few days of back-and-forth , it usually develops that X is a low-level step in accomplishing some higher-level task in Windows , and the question the person wanted to ask is about something quite doable on MacOS , such as " How do I send synthesized keystrokes to another program ?
" or " how do I hide another program ?
" .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Except he doesn't want your alternate solution.
He wants the solution he requested.
If you don't know of a way to do it, then move on.Except that odds are he doesn't want the solution he requested.
Odds are, he wants to accomplish some higher-level task, and has prematurely decided that writing bits directly to a hard drive platter is how to do so.I frequent a Macintosh programming forum.
It's very common for people to ask "how do I do X?
" (the usual formulation is "how do I get another program's window?
"), where the correct answer is "you can't".
After a few days of back-and-forth, it usually develops that X is a low-level step in accomplishing some higher-level task in Windows, and the question the person wanted to ask is about something quite doable on MacOS, such as "How do I send synthesized keystrokes to another program?
" or "how do I hide another program?
".
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342966</id>
	<title>Re:DD</title>
	<author>Lord Byron Eee PC</author>
	<datestamp>1267616580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>dd only bypasses the filesystem. It doesn't override the HDD firmware, which has to avoid bad sectors and write ECC information to the platter as well.</p><p>I would love to hear why the submitter thinks he needs to write directly to the platter.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>dd only bypasses the filesystem .
It does n't override the HDD firmware , which has to avoid bad sectors and write ECC information to the platter as well.I would love to hear why the submitter thinks he needs to write directly to the platter .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>dd only bypasses the filesystem.
It doesn't override the HDD firmware, which has to avoid bad sectors and write ECC information to the platter as well.I would love to hear why the submitter thinks he needs to write directly to the platter.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342890</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344586</id>
	<title>Re:Be careful!</title>
	<author>scrib</author>
	<datestamp>1267627620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you write the heavy bits on the inside tracks it reduces the rotational inertia, too. This leads to faster spin up and shorter boot times! It's why optical disks all store their data starting near the hub - nulls have no mass.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you write the heavy bits on the inside tracks it reduces the rotational inertia , too .
This leads to faster spin up and shorter boot times !
It 's why optical disks all store their data starting near the hub - nulls have no mass .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you write the heavy bits on the inside tracks it reduces the rotational inertia, too.
This leads to faster spin up and shorter boot times!
It's why optical disks all store their data starting near the hub - nulls have no mass.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342918</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344026</id>
	<title>Re:Tell us your project?</title>
	<author>Lehk228</author>
	<datestamp>1267624620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>nobody has the solution he requested, because the solution he requested is stupid.</htmltext>
<tokenext>nobody has the solution he requested , because the solution he requested is stupid .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>nobody has the solution he requested, because the solution he requested is stupid.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344932</id>
	<title>Re:Tell us your project?</title>
	<author>marcansoft</author>
	<datestamp>1267629300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>He didn't even ask for a solution, he asked for a way to accomplish a poorly specified abstract task that is nontrivial. It's pot luck whether a solution will be valid, and chances are it won't, unless he explains the actual project. For example, if he's trying to test modern disk error correction by introducing errors, suggestions such as "use an old 20MB drive" are useless; on the other hand, if he is just experimenting with magnetism on a drive (e.g. even trying to write "analog" audio data onto a platter) then making his own drive controller for a modern drive is both ridiculously complicated and probably worse than just feeding audio data to an old stepper drive's heads.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>He did n't even ask for a solution , he asked for a way to accomplish a poorly specified abstract task that is nontrivial .
It 's pot luck whether a solution will be valid , and chances are it wo n't , unless he explains the actual project .
For example , if he 's trying to test modern disk error correction by introducing errors , suggestions such as " use an old 20MB drive " are useless ; on the other hand , if he is just experimenting with magnetism on a drive ( e.g .
even trying to write " analog " audio data onto a platter ) then making his own drive controller for a modern drive is both ridiculously complicated and probably worse than just feeding audio data to an old stepper drive 's heads .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He didn't even ask for a solution, he asked for a way to accomplish a poorly specified abstract task that is nontrivial.
It's pot luck whether a solution will be valid, and chances are it won't, unless he explains the actual project.
For example, if he's trying to test modern disk error correction by introducing errors, suggestions such as "use an old 20MB drive" are useless; on the other hand, if he is just experimenting with magnetism on a drive (e.g.
even trying to write "analog" audio data onto a platter) then making his own drive controller for a modern drive is both ridiculously complicated and probably worse than just feeding audio data to an old stepper drive's heads.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343530</id>
	<title>The C64 still dominates</title>
	<author>agent420</author>
	<datestamp>1267621500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>This was easy to do on the C64.  Commodore is still waiting for the mainstream to catch up.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This was easy to do on the C64 .
Commodore is still waiting for the mainstream to catch up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This was easy to do on the C64.
Commodore is still waiting for the mainstream to catch up.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343808</id>
	<title>Re:Be careful!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267623240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>:/<br>No, that is not how a hard drive works. Sheesh. The material distribution on the surface remains constant. Only the magnetic alignment of the magnetic coating on the aluminum platter is affected by the write head; and this does not affect the mass of the coating in any way.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>: /No , that is not how a hard drive works .
Sheesh. The material distribution on the surface remains constant .
Only the magnetic alignment of the magnetic coating on the aluminum platter is affected by the write head ; and this does not affect the mass of the coating in any way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>:/No, that is not how a hard drive works.
Sheesh. The material distribution on the surface remains constant.
Only the magnetic alignment of the magnetic coating on the aluminum platter is affected by the write head; and this does not affect the mass of the coating in any way.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342918</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31348666</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>GWBasic</author>
	<datestamp>1267645620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Or, the submitter could contact Seagate or another drive manufacturer and ask what it would take to get a drive with special firmware that let him write 1's and 0's directly to the drive wherever he wanted. Basically, remove the intelligence on the drive.</p></div><p>Or just find out if there are test codes / commands that do the same thing.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Or , the submitter could contact Seagate or another drive manufacturer and ask what it would take to get a drive with special firmware that let him write 1 's and 0 's directly to the drive wherever he wanted .
Basically , remove the intelligence on the drive.Or just find out if there are test codes / commands that do the same thing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or, the submitter could contact Seagate or another drive manufacturer and ask what it would take to get a drive with special firmware that let him write 1's and 0's directly to the drive wherever he wanted.
Basically, remove the intelligence on the drive.Or just find out if there are test codes / commands that do the same thing.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343842</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343032</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>adolf</author>
	<datestamp>1267617180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A whole chip?  Really?  That sounds hard.</p><p>Just Ebay an old 20MB Seagate ST-225 MFM drive, and write whatever bits you want.</p><p>It doesn't know any better.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A whole chip ?
Really ? That sounds hard.Just Ebay an old 20MB Seagate ST-225 MFM drive , and write whatever bits you want.It does n't know any better .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A whole chip?
Really?  That sounds hard.Just Ebay an old 20MB Seagate ST-225 MFM drive, and write whatever bits you want.It doesn't know any better.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342826</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346532</id>
	<title>Re:Headlines are superfluous</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267636260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Here's another one:<br>He's developing a magnetoelectric material and thought that it would be splendid to simply coat a HD platter with the stuff and use what he thought was a dumb controller to establish magnetic fields at precise locations while having a different sensor detect the associated electric field. In this way, he wouldn't care at all about the readability, but rather a simple commercial solution that would otherwise cost $$$ from a specialized equipment manufacturer.</p><p>Personally, I hate electromagnetic materials characterization research, so who knows what he's using it for. My point is that his purpose could have nothing to do with reading or writing data, but rather for more fundamental science.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Here 's another one : He 's developing a magnetoelectric material and thought that it would be splendid to simply coat a HD platter with the stuff and use what he thought was a dumb controller to establish magnetic fields at precise locations while having a different sensor detect the associated electric field .
In this way , he would n't care at all about the readability , but rather a simple commercial solution that would otherwise cost $ $ $ from a specialized equipment manufacturer.Personally , I hate electromagnetic materials characterization research , so who knows what he 's using it for .
My point is that his purpose could have nothing to do with reading or writing data , but rather for more fundamental science .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here's another one:He's developing a magnetoelectric material and thought that it would be splendid to simply coat a HD platter with the stuff and use what he thought was a dumb controller to establish magnetic fields at precise locations while having a different sensor detect the associated electric field.
In this way, he wouldn't care at all about the readability, but rather a simple commercial solution that would otherwise cost $$$ from a specialized equipment manufacturer.Personally, I hate electromagnetic materials characterization research, so who knows what he's using it for.
My point is that his purpose could have nothing to do with reading or writing data, but rather for more fundamental science.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343536</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31355666</id>
	<title>All drives encode the bits</title>
	<author>mscritsm</author>
	<datestamp>1267695180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you want an exact image of 1's and 0's that you determine, forget it. Bits these days are encoded as transitions between magnetic phase boundaries. They also encode the clock data needed to recover the data along with the data. As a result, what's put down on the disk has to guarantee a certain number of these transitions or you loose sync. In other words, you may think you're writing '0000000' but on the disk it's a bunch of magnetic transitions, not a constant stream of the same magnetic polarity. It's not even that a single phase transition translates into either a 1 or a 0; groups of these transitions translate into a group of the actual data bits. Some patterns of phase transitions can simply never be written onto the media by the write electronics in the first place because they would not result in reliable data recovery by the read electronics.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you want an exact image of 1 's and 0 's that you determine , forget it .
Bits these days are encoded as transitions between magnetic phase boundaries .
They also encode the clock data needed to recover the data along with the data .
As a result , what 's put down on the disk has to guarantee a certain number of these transitions or you loose sync .
In other words , you may think you 're writing '0000000 ' but on the disk it 's a bunch of magnetic transitions , not a constant stream of the same magnetic polarity .
It 's not even that a single phase transition translates into either a 1 or a 0 ; groups of these transitions translate into a group of the actual data bits .
Some patterns of phase transitions can simply never be written onto the media by the write electronics in the first place because they would not result in reliable data recovery by the read electronics .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you want an exact image of 1's and 0's that you determine, forget it.
Bits these days are encoded as transitions between magnetic phase boundaries.
They also encode the clock data needed to recover the data along with the data.
As a result, what's put down on the disk has to guarantee a certain number of these transitions or you loose sync.
In other words, you may think you're writing '0000000' but on the disk it's a bunch of magnetic transitions, not a constant stream of the same magnetic polarity.
It's not even that a single phase transition translates into either a 1 or a 0; groups of these transitions translate into a group of the actual data bits.
Some patterns of phase transitions can simply never be written onto the media by the write electronics in the first place because they would not result in reliable data recovery by the read electronics.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346462</id>
	<title>Re:Tell us your project?</title>
	<author>Xorlev</author>
	<datestamp>1267635840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>nobody has the solution he requested, because the solution he requested is stupid.</p></div><p>You don't know why he wants it, but it's possible as long as he can replace the firmware. As stated above, Seagate et. all usually can help with unusual firmware requests.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>nobody has the solution he requested , because the solution he requested is stupid.You do n't know why he wants it , but it 's possible as long as he can replace the firmware .
As stated above , Seagate et .
all usually can help with unusual firmware requests .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>nobody has the solution he requested, because the solution he requested is stupid.You don't know why he wants it, but it's possible as long as he can replace the firmware.
As stated above, Seagate et.
all usually can help with unusual firmware requests.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344026</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344526</id>
	<title>Re:That's nothing!</title>
	<author>sydb</author>
	<datestamp>1267627320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Best slashdot comment I've ever read, thank you!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Best slashdot comment I 've ever read , thank you !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Best slashdot comment I've ever read, thank you!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343348</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31347010</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>hondo77</author>
	<datestamp>1267638060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The Apple IIe was a wretched computer with awful software...</p></div><p>Compared to which of its contemporaries?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The Apple IIe was a wretched computer with awful software...Compared to which of its contemporaries ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The Apple IIe was a wretched computer with awful software...Compared to which of its contemporaries?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344084</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344102</id>
	<title>hardcore freedos or dd your way out</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267625160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are two ways;<br>I would advise you to pick up a copy of FreeDos. Dos gives you less trouble accessing the hardware than Windows, Linux, MacOS X or fill in nearly every other big modern OS.<br>Then you can simply use C++ to access BIOS calls to access the harddrive, or write some code that accesses your diskcontroller directly. I do think you probably need to code yourself, or get someone to do it for you.<br>This would give you the most flexibility.</p><p>An other option is to use linux and a simple utility called dd, you can simply use that to write a binary-file directly to a certain sector or number of sectors. For example; dd if=sample.bin of=/dev/hdb would write a file called sample.bin to the second harddisk starting from the very first sector.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are two ways ; I would advise you to pick up a copy of FreeDos .
Dos gives you less trouble accessing the hardware than Windows , Linux , MacOS X or fill in nearly every other big modern OS.Then you can simply use C + + to access BIOS calls to access the harddrive , or write some code that accesses your diskcontroller directly .
I do think you probably need to code yourself , or get someone to do it for you.This would give you the most flexibility.An other option is to use linux and a simple utility called dd , you can simply use that to write a binary-file directly to a certain sector or number of sectors .
For example ; dd if = sample.bin of = /dev/hdb would write a file called sample.bin to the second harddisk starting from the very first sector .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are two ways;I would advise you to pick up a copy of FreeDos.
Dos gives you less trouble accessing the hardware than Windows, Linux, MacOS X or fill in nearly every other big modern OS.Then you can simply use C++ to access BIOS calls to access the harddrive, or write some code that accesses your diskcontroller directly.
I do think you probably need to code yourself, or get someone to do it for you.This would give you the most flexibility.An other option is to use linux and a simple utility called dd, you can simply use that to write a binary-file directly to a certain sector or number of sectors.
For example; dd if=sample.bin of=/dev/hdb would write a file called sample.bin to the second harddisk starting from the very first sector.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344032</id>
	<title>Re:You're doing it wrong!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267624680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Then he will have to do a bit of trial and error to figure out what encoding schemes the hard drive itself uses, but he doesn't need exact control over what byte goes where.  What he is looking for is something to get as close to the metal as he can (you know like using dd) and then trying for statistical analysis of the blocks he reads to calibrate. Yes it's not perfect, but it wont suffer from most of the problems you will encounter replacing the firmware o the drive, then not having it represent anything that you will ind in real life tests.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Then he will have to do a bit of trial and error to figure out what encoding schemes the hard drive itself uses , but he does n't need exact control over what byte goes where .
What he is looking for is something to get as close to the metal as he can ( you know like using dd ) and then trying for statistical analysis of the blocks he reads to calibrate .
Yes it 's not perfect , but it wont suffer from most of the problems you will encounter replacing the firmware o the drive , then not having it represent anything that you will ind in real life tests .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Then he will have to do a bit of trial and error to figure out what encoding schemes the hard drive itself uses, but he doesn't need exact control over what byte goes where.
What he is looking for is something to get as close to the metal as he can (you know like using dd) and then trying for statistical analysis of the blocks he reads to calibrate.
Yes it's not perfect, but it wont suffer from most of the problems you will encounter replacing the firmware o the drive, then not having it represent anything that you will ind in real life tests.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343304</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346568</id>
	<title>dd</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267636380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Is there any reason why you couldn't use dd with an offset to accomplish this?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Is there any reason why you could n't use dd with an offset to accomplish this ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is there any reason why you couldn't use dd with an offset to accomplish this?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345158</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267630320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>"It's not that impossible for drive manufacturers to do things like this for you, if you have the $$ to pay for it."</i>
<br> <br>
Last sentence:  <i>"Obviously a <b>free and open source solution would be preferable</b>, but I'm open to anything at this point."</i>  Pretty clear submitter doesn't want to pay for it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" It 's not that impossible for drive manufacturers to do things like this for you , if you have the $ $ to pay for it .
" Last sentence : " Obviously a free and open source solution would be preferable , but I 'm open to anything at this point .
" Pretty clear submitter does n't want to pay for it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"It's not that impossible for drive manufacturers to do things like this for you, if you have the $$ to pay for it.
"
 
Last sentence:  "Obviously a free and open source solution would be preferable, but I'm open to anything at this point.
"  Pretty clear submitter doesn't want to pay for it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343842</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31348494</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>keeboo</author>
	<datestamp>1267644780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Does is have to be a hard drive?  The Apple IIe was a wretched computer with awful software, but it had a floppy controller that was possibly the cutest electronic device ever made.  It's been an awfully long time, but my recollection is that it was built from a handful -- six or eight -- of TTL chips and that not only COULD one control exactly what was written where in software, one HAD to control what was written where in software.</p></div><p>I don't think that's much different from PC-like floppy drives, the difference being that the (x86) PC had a floppy controller which limited read/write to sectors and MFM coding.<br>
Amiga diskette drives were almost the same as the PC ones (except for the disk-detection signal, which you could hack and convert a PC drive to an Amiga one), and Amigas wrote pretty much whatever you wanted into the disk (AFAIR the modulation was software based) and not even the index signal was used (except when r/w FAT disks).</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Does is have to be a hard drive ?
The Apple IIe was a wretched computer with awful software , but it had a floppy controller that was possibly the cutest electronic device ever made .
It 's been an awfully long time , but my recollection is that it was built from a handful -- six or eight -- of TTL chips and that not only COULD one control exactly what was written where in software , one HAD to control what was written where in software.I do n't think that 's much different from PC-like floppy drives , the difference being that the ( x86 ) PC had a floppy controller which limited read/write to sectors and MFM coding .
Amiga diskette drives were almost the same as the PC ones ( except for the disk-detection signal , which you could hack and convert a PC drive to an Amiga one ) , and Amigas wrote pretty much whatever you wanted into the disk ( AFAIR the modulation was software based ) and not even the index signal was used ( except when r/w FAT disks ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Does is have to be a hard drive?
The Apple IIe was a wretched computer with awful software, but it had a floppy controller that was possibly the cutest electronic device ever made.
It's been an awfully long time, but my recollection is that it was built from a handful -- six or eight -- of TTL chips and that not only COULD one control exactly what was written where in software, one HAD to control what was written where in software.I don't think that's much different from PC-like floppy drives, the difference being that the (x86) PC had a floppy controller which limited read/write to sectors and MFM coding.
Amiga diskette drives were almost the same as the PC ones (except for the disk-detection signal, which you could hack and convert a PC drive to an Amiga one), and Amigas wrote pretty much whatever you wanted into the disk (AFAIR the modulation was software based) and not even the index signal was used (except when r/w FAT disks).
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344084</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31348038</id>
	<title>Why a physical drive?</title>
	<author>lucian1900</author>
	<datestamp>1267642740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you really need a physical drive, you'll have to make your own controller or use really old hardware.

Why not try a virtual drive? I bet qemu has quite a bit of helpful source code. Real filesystem source code might also be helpful, like ext2/ufs.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you really need a physical drive , you 'll have to make your own controller or use really old hardware .
Why not try a virtual drive ?
I bet qemu has quite a bit of helpful source code .
Real filesystem source code might also be helpful , like ext2/ufs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you really need a physical drive, you'll have to make your own controller or use really old hardware.
Why not try a virtual drive?
I bet qemu has quite a bit of helpful source code.
Real filesystem source code might also be helpful, like ext2/ufs.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344122</id>
	<title>Re:ob XKCD reference</title>
	<author>ShadowRangerRIT</author>
	<datestamp>1267625280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>It's been posted and modded to oblivion multiple times.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's been posted and modded to oblivion multiple times .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's been posted and modded to oblivion multiple times.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343982</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344760</id>
	<title>LightScribe?</title>
	<author>wexsessa</author>
	<datestamp>1267628580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The LightScribe feature on some CD &amp; DVD disks/drives appears to be close to what you want to achieve, i.e. it writes 'bits' that create a visible graphics design ("bits anywhere &amp; everywhere"), without regard to what the bits mean as data.

So if you can find the tricks behind that, you might be able to find someone who can implement a similar scheme in a HD.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The LightScribe feature on some CD &amp; DVD disks/drives appears to be close to what you want to achieve , i.e .
it writes 'bits ' that create a visible graphics design ( " bits anywhere &amp; everywhere " ) , without regard to what the bits mean as data .
So if you can find the tricks behind that , you might be able to find someone who can implement a similar scheme in a HD .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The LightScribe feature on some CD &amp; DVD disks/drives appears to be close to what you want to achieve, i.e.
it writes 'bits' that create a visible graphics design ("bits anywhere &amp; everywhere"), without regard to what the bits mean as data.
So if you can find the tricks behind that, you might be able to find someone who can implement a similar scheme in a HD.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31351882</id>
	<title>Re:Tell us your project?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267617660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p><div class="quote"><p>These kinds of questions are stupid: "I need to do XYZ for a project, how do I do XYZ?", where XYZ is one or more of complicated, ridiculous, vague, nonsensical, etc. Try telling us what your project is, and then we might be able to suggest a useful solution, possibly not involving XYZ at all, or involving a very particular/practical version of XYZ.</p></div><p>Except he doesn't want your alternate solution.  He wants the solution he requested.  If you don't know of a way to do it, then move on.</p></div><p>This is a very common problem in IT. People think they want solution X to problem Y. So they request solution X from the IT manager. Since the client doesn't know IT, they don't know why it won't work to solve problem Y.</p><p>If they have a good IT manager, they get asked why they need X, and the manager (or their staff) can analyse problem Y to see if X is in fact correct, or if A, B, or C would be a better solution.</p><p>If they have a bad IT manager, they get solution X. This may or may not work, and often has them going back to the IT manager saying why didn't X fix my Y? This is the point at which the IT manager explains why it's better to come to them with a problem instead of a solution.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>These kinds of questions are stupid : " I need to do XYZ for a project , how do I do XYZ ?
" , where XYZ is one or more of complicated , ridiculous , vague , nonsensical , etc .
Try telling us what your project is , and then we might be able to suggest a useful solution , possibly not involving XYZ at all , or involving a very particular/practical version of XYZ.Except he does n't want your alternate solution .
He wants the solution he requested .
If you do n't know of a way to do it , then move on.This is a very common problem in IT .
People think they want solution X to problem Y. So they request solution X from the IT manager .
Since the client does n't know IT , they do n't know why it wo n't work to solve problem Y.If they have a good IT manager , they get asked why they need X , and the manager ( or their staff ) can analyse problem Y to see if X is in fact correct , or if A , B , or C would be a better solution.If they have a bad IT manager , they get solution X. This may or may not work , and often has them going back to the IT manager saying why did n't X fix my Y ?
This is the point at which the IT manager explains why it 's better to come to them with a problem instead of a solution .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>These kinds of questions are stupid: "I need to do XYZ for a project, how do I do XYZ?
", where XYZ is one or more of complicated, ridiculous, vague, nonsensical, etc.
Try telling us what your project is, and then we might be able to suggest a useful solution, possibly not involving XYZ at all, or involving a very particular/practical version of XYZ.Except he doesn't want your alternate solution.
He wants the solution he requested.
If you don't know of a way to do it, then move on.This is a very common problem in IT.
People think they want solution X to problem Y. So they request solution X from the IT manager.
Since the client doesn't know IT, they don't know why it won't work to solve problem Y.If they have a good IT manager, they get asked why they need X, and the manager (or their staff) can analyse problem Y to see if X is in fact correct, or if A, B, or C would be a better solution.If they have a bad IT manager, they get solution X. This may or may not work, and often has them going back to the IT manager saying why didn't X fix my Y?
This is the point at which the IT manager explains why it's better to come to them with a problem instead of a solution.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346394</id>
	<title>Re:Headlines are superfluous</title>
	<author>gerwalk</author>
	<datestamp>1267635600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You are a gentle soul and you've given this ninny much more of your time and effort than he deserves. Well done.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You are a gentle soul and you 've given this ninny much more of your time and effort than he deserves .
Well done .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are a gentle soul and you've given this ninny much more of your time and effort than he deserves.
Well done.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343536</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343756</id>
	<title>Re:You're doing it wrong!</title>
	<author>Rumata</author>
	<datestamp>1267622940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>And if he's trying to see if he can read data patterns off platters by hand from a dismantled drive, and needs a known test pattern to calibrate his equipment with?</p></div></blockquote><p>If that's the case he'll learn that reverse-engineering is hard.  In this particular case nigh impossibly hard, if it needs to be done on modern hardware.  As others have said easier on MFM drives.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>And if he 's trying to see if he can read data patterns off platters by hand from a dismantled drive , and needs a known test pattern to calibrate his equipment with ? If that 's the case he 'll learn that reverse-engineering is hard .
In this particular case nigh impossibly hard , if it needs to be done on modern hardware .
As others have said easier on MFM drives .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And if he's trying to see if he can read data patterns off platters by hand from a dismantled drive, and needs a known test pattern to calibrate his equipment with?If that's the case he'll learn that reverse-engineering is hard.
In this particular case nigh impossibly hard, if it needs to be done on modern hardware.
As others have said easier on MFM drives.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343304</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343664</id>
	<title>Re:That's nothing!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267622280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>LOL I actually choked on my coffee reading this... good show<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>LOL I actually choked on my coffee reading this... good show ; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>LOL I actually choked on my coffee reading this... good show ;)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343348</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31351438</id>
	<title>SCSI "write long" command will do this</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267615680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It is optional, but was well supported by drives in the 90s, and may still be.  It was typically used by vendors like EMC to be able to predict disk failure before it occurs (i.e., by increasing need for ECC codes indicates a bad sector may be forming)</p><p>So grab a SCSI card and whatever SCSI drives you or someone else has laying around and see if this is supported...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is optional , but was well supported by drives in the 90s , and may still be .
It was typically used by vendors like EMC to be able to predict disk failure before it occurs ( i.e. , by increasing need for ECC codes indicates a bad sector may be forming ) So grab a SCSI card and whatever SCSI drives you or someone else has laying around and see if this is supported.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is optional, but was well supported by drives in the 90s, and may still be.
It was typically used by vendors like EMC to be able to predict disk failure before it occurs (i.e., by increasing need for ECC codes indicates a bad sector may be forming)So grab a SCSI card and whatever SCSI drives you or someone else has laying around and see if this is supported...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343290</id>
	<title>Have you tried...</title>
	<author>wertigon</author>
	<datestamp>1267619640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><a href="http://xkcd.com/378/" title="xkcd.com" rel="nofollow">C-x M-c M-butterfly</a> [xkcd.com] yet?</htmltext>
<tokenext>C-x M-c M-butterfly [ xkcd.com ] yet ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>C-x M-c M-butterfly [xkcd.com] yet?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342890</id>
	<title>DD</title>
	<author>LordAzuzu</author>
	<datestamp>1267615920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><tt>I guess the dd utility is not enough for your needs, otherwise you would have already tried it.<br>Right?</tt></htmltext>
<tokenext>I guess the dd utility is not enough for your needs , otherwise you would have already tried it.Right ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I guess the dd utility is not enough for your needs, otherwise you would have already tried it.Right?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31353930</id>
	<title>Re:That is gonna be hard</title>
	<author>Jon Harms</author>
	<datestamp>1267631880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I agree that kidcharles might be asking for more than he thinks. Normally, the drive is accessed using LBA. Depending on how the physical media was grown (where defects formed) the LBA will correspond to different parts of the platter on every drive, even if they came off the assembly line in pairs. Furthermore, when you say you want to control where the 1's and 0's are stored, this is a bit of a misnomer. The data is NRZI encoded, and the ones and zeros are actually stored in the presence or absence of a domain wall.

If you were referring to controlling the relative placement of the data (inner or outer part of the platter) then you may have some luck with the firmware. As others have pointed out, in this case your best shot would be to ask for a drive with custom firmware. It will cost you, but they already have diagnostic firmware that does this, and they would just need to make a stripped down version that doesn't allow you access to the features they don't trust you with (which is most of them).

Good luck<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree that kidcharles might be asking for more than he thinks .
Normally , the drive is accessed using LBA .
Depending on how the physical media was grown ( where defects formed ) the LBA will correspond to different parts of the platter on every drive , even if they came off the assembly line in pairs .
Furthermore , when you say you want to control where the 1 's and 0 's are stored , this is a bit of a misnomer .
The data is NRZI encoded , and the ones and zeros are actually stored in the presence or absence of a domain wall .
If you were referring to controlling the relative placement of the data ( inner or outer part of the platter ) then you may have some luck with the firmware .
As others have pointed out , in this case your best shot would be to ask for a drive with custom firmware .
It will cost you , but they already have diagnostic firmware that does this , and they would just need to make a stripped down version that does n't allow you access to the features they do n't trust you with ( which is most of them ) .
Good luck : )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree that kidcharles might be asking for more than he thinks.
Normally, the drive is accessed using LBA.
Depending on how the physical media was grown (where defects formed) the LBA will correspond to different parts of the platter on every drive, even if they came off the assembly line in pairs.
Furthermore, when you say you want to control where the 1's and 0's are stored, this is a bit of a misnomer.
The data is NRZI encoded, and the ones and zeros are actually stored in the presence or absence of a domain wall.
If you were referring to controlling the relative placement of the data (inner or outer part of the platter) then you may have some luck with the firmware.
As others have pointed out, in this case your best shot would be to ask for a drive with custom firmware.
It will cost you, but they already have diagnostic firmware that does this, and they would just need to make a stripped down version that doesn't allow you access to the features they don't trust you with (which is most of them).
Good luck :)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342848</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344784</id>
	<title>Re:8-bit ST412/506 MFM + Linux circa 1994-5</title>
	<author>perigee369</author>
	<datestamp>1267628700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Get yourself an old, totally unintelligent S412/506 MFM controller from out of an IBM PC or PC/XT. These were fairly dumb devices (g=c800:5 in debug, anyone?)</p></div><p>Refresh my memory - g-c800:5 was the command to low-level format the drive, wasn't it? Damn, my age is showing... lol</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Get yourself an old , totally unintelligent S412/506 MFM controller from out of an IBM PC or PC/XT .
These were fairly dumb devices ( g = c800 : 5 in debug , anyone ?
) Refresh my memory - g-c800 : 5 was the command to low-level format the drive , was n't it ?
Damn , my age is showing... lol</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Get yourself an old, totally unintelligent S412/506 MFM controller from out of an IBM PC or PC/XT.
These were fairly dumb devices (g=c800:5 in debug, anyone?
)Refresh my memory - g-c800:5 was the command to low-level format the drive, wasn't it?
Damn, my age is showing... lol
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343172</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344974</id>
	<title>Re:Headlines are superfluous</title>
	<author>Zarf</author>
	<datestamp>1267629540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> <b>If you're a DRM/malware/virus developer...</b><br>I will sleep very comfortably tonight, because you had to ask about this on Slashdot, signaling once more that you're doing it wrong.</p></div><p>I see what you did there.</p><p>If said project was a DRM project I would equate this to the project requirement I got they didn't ask for "faster than light travel between Seattle, Atlanta, and New York" instead they asked for "millisecond data replication between all three data centers"<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... which I had to call "baloney" on. Your DRM project should specify "make it cheaper to buy the product than it is to steal the product" then everyone will be happy.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you 're a DRM/malware/virus developer...I will sleep very comfortably tonight , because you had to ask about this on Slashdot , signaling once more that you 're doing it wrong.I see what you did there.If said project was a DRM project I would equate this to the project requirement I got they did n't ask for " faster than light travel between Seattle , Atlanta , and New York " instead they asked for " millisecond data replication between all three data centers " ... which I had to call " baloney " on .
Your DRM project should specify " make it cheaper to buy the product than it is to steal the product " then everyone will be happy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> If you're a DRM/malware/virus developer...I will sleep very comfortably tonight, because you had to ask about this on Slashdot, signaling once more that you're doing it wrong.I see what you did there.If said project was a DRM project I would equate this to the project requirement I got they didn't ask for "faster than light travel between Seattle, Atlanta, and New York" instead they asked for "millisecond data replication between all three data centers" ... which I had to call "baloney" on.
Your DRM project should specify "make it cheaper to buy the product than it is to steal the product" then everyone will be happy.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343536</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31376818</id>
	<title>Translation</title>
	<author>jmkelly</author>
	<datestamp>1267791000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think what this guy really wants to do is get a lot of Slashdotters to post speculative, mostly-useless, and silly replies.</p><p>He did pretty well.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think what this guy really wants to do is get a lot of Slashdotters to post speculative , mostly-useless , and silly replies.He did pretty well .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think what this guy really wants to do is get a lot of Slashdotters to post speculative, mostly-useless, and silly replies.He did pretty well.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31346334</id>
	<title>Well, since we're dancing around the short answer</title>
	<author>EriktheGreen</author>
	<datestamp>1267635240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
I'll give the direct/short answer to the question you're asking.
</p><p>
No.
</p><p>
The reason is that hard drives only write data in precise locations so they can find it later.  You can't write anywhere other than those locations because the drive won't do it... not even with new firmware.  The read/write heads may not even be capable of addressing the locations you want to write.  The only way to write in an arbitrary location is to remove the disks from the drive in a clean room, and use a very precise CNC read/write head to address the locations you want.  Disk manufacturers have machines that do this.
</p><p>
If you confine your request to only writing arbitrary locations within the physically addressable areas of the disk, then you can do what you want if and only if you write new firmware for the drive... it used to be firmware was in EPROM and couldn't be altered, but you can flash it nowadays.  So you A) Buy a drive then B) Re-flash the eprom with code to do what you want (custom developed after reverse engineering the original firmware) and then you can write wherever, without worrying about niceties like the end of sector marks the drive uses to keep track of data locations.  You'll have to do that sort of thing yourself.
</p><p>
So, confining our discussion to disk areas that the default drive firmware will write to, If you're looking for a way to ignore/override the OS I/O code, the disk controller firmware and the disk firmware in order to "talk to the bare metal" it may be possible depending on the particular combination of OS, controller, and disk, and assuming you have the right privileges in the OS.  But there's no standard way to do it, nor API.  You have to know exactly how the hardware in question works, down to the chip level and in some cases below.  If the computer you're interested in has a different drive, controller or OS I/O code than you wrote your program for, then you have to re-write it.
</p><p>
I'm sure a lot of us here would be curious to know what you're trying to do... accessing non data sectors on a disk hasn't been done commonly for years, and when it was it was used for some awful copy protection methods (awful as in they created compatibility issues, even with "standard" PC hardware and also they could still be broken).
</p><p>
Erik</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'll give the direct/short answer to the question you 're asking .
No . The reason is that hard drives only write data in precise locations so they can find it later .
You ca n't write anywhere other than those locations because the drive wo n't do it... not even with new firmware .
The read/write heads may not even be capable of addressing the locations you want to write .
The only way to write in an arbitrary location is to remove the disks from the drive in a clean room , and use a very precise CNC read/write head to address the locations you want .
Disk manufacturers have machines that do this .
If you confine your request to only writing arbitrary locations within the physically addressable areas of the disk , then you can do what you want if and only if you write new firmware for the drive... it used to be firmware was in EPROM and could n't be altered , but you can flash it nowadays .
So you A ) Buy a drive then B ) Re-flash the eprom with code to do what you want ( custom developed after reverse engineering the original firmware ) and then you can write wherever , without worrying about niceties like the end of sector marks the drive uses to keep track of data locations .
You 'll have to do that sort of thing yourself .
So , confining our discussion to disk areas that the default drive firmware will write to , If you 're looking for a way to ignore/override the OS I/O code , the disk controller firmware and the disk firmware in order to " talk to the bare metal " it may be possible depending on the particular combination of OS , controller , and disk , and assuming you have the right privileges in the OS .
But there 's no standard way to do it , nor API .
You have to know exactly how the hardware in question works , down to the chip level and in some cases below .
If the computer you 're interested in has a different drive , controller or OS I/O code than you wrote your program for , then you have to re-write it .
I 'm sure a lot of us here would be curious to know what you 're trying to do... accessing non data sectors on a disk has n't been done commonly for years , and when it was it was used for some awful copy protection methods ( awful as in they created compatibility issues , even with " standard " PC hardware and also they could still be broken ) .
Erik</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
I'll give the direct/short answer to the question you're asking.
No.

The reason is that hard drives only write data in precise locations so they can find it later.
You can't write anywhere other than those locations because the drive won't do it... not even with new firmware.
The read/write heads may not even be capable of addressing the locations you want to write.
The only way to write in an arbitrary location is to remove the disks from the drive in a clean room, and use a very precise CNC read/write head to address the locations you want.
Disk manufacturers have machines that do this.
If you confine your request to only writing arbitrary locations within the physically addressable areas of the disk, then you can do what you want if and only if you write new firmware for the drive... it used to be firmware was in EPROM and couldn't be altered, but you can flash it nowadays.
So you A) Buy a drive then B) Re-flash the eprom with code to do what you want (custom developed after reverse engineering the original firmware) and then you can write wherever, without worrying about niceties like the end of sector marks the drive uses to keep track of data locations.
You'll have to do that sort of thing yourself.
So, confining our discussion to disk areas that the default drive firmware will write to, If you're looking for a way to ignore/override the OS I/O code, the disk controller firmware and the disk firmware in order to "talk to the bare metal" it may be possible depending on the particular combination of OS, controller, and disk, and assuming you have the right privileges in the OS.
But there's no standard way to do it, nor API.
You have to know exactly how the hardware in question works, down to the chip level and in some cases below.
If the computer you're interested in has a different drive, controller or OS I/O code than you wrote your program for, then you have to re-write it.
I'm sure a lot of us here would be curious to know what you're trying to do... accessing non data sectors on a disk hasn't been done commonly for years, and when it was it was used for some awful copy protection methods (awful as in they created compatibility issues, even with "standard" PC hardware and also they could still be broken).
Erik</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31349660</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>FiloEleven</author>
	<datestamp>1267607400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Last part of last sentence:<br>
&nbsp; <em>"Obviously a free and open source solution would be preferable, <strong>but I'm open to anything at this point</strong>."</em></p><p>Pretty clear submitter will take what he can get.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Last part of last sentence :   " Obviously a free and open source solution would be preferable , but I 'm open to anything at this point .
" Pretty clear submitter will take what he can get .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Last part of last sentence:
  "Obviously a free and open source solution would be preferable, but I'm open to anything at this point.
"Pretty clear submitter will take what he can get.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345158</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343502</id>
	<title>I think he's planning to do some...</title>
	<author>SpurtyBurger</author>
	<datestamp>1267621260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>hard disk art<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)

Maybe a 1/32 pic of Fatty Arbuckle?</htmltext>
<tokenext>hard disk art : ) Maybe a 1/32 pic of Fatty Arbuckle ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>hard disk art :)

Maybe a 1/32 pic of Fatty Arbuckle?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31357948</id>
	<title>There is no analog "exact" except by definition -</title>
	<author>berkbw</author>
	<datestamp>1267718340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Your quandary does not speak of the precision required in locating specific disk areas.  In the "OLD DAYS", servo tracks were used- read-only, permanent.  Holes in the media were also used, but difficult to retrofit.

Temperature and voltage will cause inaccuracies.  One would need to construct a controller in order to have "bare metal" write-ability. It seems doable.

Good fortune,
berk</htmltext>
<tokenext>Your quandary does not speak of the precision required in locating specific disk areas .
In the " OLD DAYS " , servo tracks were used- read-only , permanent .
Holes in the media were also used , but difficult to retrofit .
Temperature and voltage will cause inaccuracies .
One would need to construct a controller in order to have " bare metal " write-ability .
It seems doable .
Good fortune , berk</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Your quandary does not speak of the precision required in locating specific disk areas.
In the "OLD DAYS", servo tracks were used- read-only, permanent.
Holes in the media were also used, but difficult to retrofit.
Temperature and voltage will cause inaccuracies.
One would need to construct a controller in order to have "bare metal" write-ability.
It seems doable.
Good fortune,
berk</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343982</id>
	<title>ob XKCD reference</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267624380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm surprised I haven't see this yet:

<a href="http://xkcd.com/378/" title="xkcd.com" rel="nofollow">http://xkcd.com/378/</a> [xkcd.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm surprised I have n't see this yet : http : //xkcd.com/378/ [ xkcd.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm surprised I haven't see this yet:

http://xkcd.com/378/ [xkcd.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345826</id>
	<title>Re:If you have to ask, it's hopeless</title>
	<author>noidentity</author>
	<datestamp>1267633020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Exactly. Sort of like how optical discs don't have bits directly encoded, instead <a href="http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/Magicfig1.jpg" title="stereophile.com">pits and lands of varying lengths</a> [stereophile.com] along the spiral. The guy is looking for things that just aren't there (except maybe on really old hard drives).</htmltext>
<tokenext>Exactly .
Sort of like how optical discs do n't have bits directly encoded , instead pits and lands of varying lengths [ stereophile.com ] along the spiral .
The guy is looking for things that just are n't there ( except maybe on really old hard drives ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Exactly.
Sort of like how optical discs don't have bits directly encoded, instead pits and lands of varying lengths [stereophile.com] along the spiral.
The guy is looking for things that just aren't there (except maybe on really old hard drives).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31345720</id>
	<title>You will need to hack the drive itself</title>
	<author>rclandrum</author>
	<datestamp>1267632600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Every floppy and disk drive I can recall (even back to 8-inch floppy days) uses some type of controller.  The controller translates your track and sector requests into stepping motions of the write arm(s) on the drive. Once the controller indicates that the head is positioned over your requested track, there is a latency while you wait for the "index" mark to appear which indicates the start of the track data.  At that point you supply special codes to tell the controller that you are starting a new sector, the sector number, sector size, etc, after which you send the data.  All of the sector info and data are encoded automatically by the controller and combined (at least in MFM encoding) into a bit stream.  My belief is that attempting to work out all the combinations needed to get exactly the series of 1's and 0's you want is probably not a practical solution.</p><p>About the only solution I can think of that would allow you to do this is to actually hack into the signal supplied to the recording head at the end of the write arm.  That means that you will need an oscilliscope to locate the signal and determine the voltage and duration required to write 1's and 0's.  You will also need to understand whatever mechanism the drive uses to detect the index mark (the start of a track).  If the drive does not use index marks, you won't be able to align the bits on one track in relationship to the bits on any other track.  Assuming you manage to obtain all this info, you will then need to cut the drive line from the controller to the head and splice in your own drive line that will supply the raw write signals.</p><p>My guess is that this will not be a practical method for achieving whatever it is you are aiming for, in which case I agree with the previous poster that recommended the use of a XY table driving a custom write head over a custom magnetic surface.</p><p>On the other hand, you didn't specify that you need to be able to *read* any of the bits you want to lay down, so why not just hand in any old drive and tell them it was a piece of cake and let them worry about how to verify your work<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p><p>On a more practical note, if what you want is to lay down an exact pattern of bits onto a magnetic surface, the easiest path might be to use a cheap off-the-shelf laser printer.  Simply create a 300 dpi image of the bit pattern and print it.  You can them pick up the pattern off the printer drum.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Every floppy and disk drive I can recall ( even back to 8-inch floppy days ) uses some type of controller .
The controller translates your track and sector requests into stepping motions of the write arm ( s ) on the drive .
Once the controller indicates that the head is positioned over your requested track , there is a latency while you wait for the " index " mark to appear which indicates the start of the track data .
At that point you supply special codes to tell the controller that you are starting a new sector , the sector number , sector size , etc , after which you send the data .
All of the sector info and data are encoded automatically by the controller and combined ( at least in MFM encoding ) into a bit stream .
My belief is that attempting to work out all the combinations needed to get exactly the series of 1 's and 0 's you want is probably not a practical solution.About the only solution I can think of that would allow you to do this is to actually hack into the signal supplied to the recording head at the end of the write arm .
That means that you will need an oscilliscope to locate the signal and determine the voltage and duration required to write 1 's and 0 's .
You will also need to understand whatever mechanism the drive uses to detect the index mark ( the start of a track ) .
If the drive does not use index marks , you wo n't be able to align the bits on one track in relationship to the bits on any other track .
Assuming you manage to obtain all this info , you will then need to cut the drive line from the controller to the head and splice in your own drive line that will supply the raw write signals.My guess is that this will not be a practical method for achieving whatever it is you are aiming for , in which case I agree with the previous poster that recommended the use of a XY table driving a custom write head over a custom magnetic surface.On the other hand , you did n't specify that you need to be able to * read * any of the bits you want to lay down , so why not just hand in any old drive and tell them it was a piece of cake and let them worry about how to verify your work : - ) On a more practical note , if what you want is to lay down an exact pattern of bits onto a magnetic surface , the easiest path might be to use a cheap off-the-shelf laser printer .
Simply create a 300 dpi image of the bit pattern and print it .
You can them pick up the pattern off the printer drum .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Every floppy and disk drive I can recall (even back to 8-inch floppy days) uses some type of controller.
The controller translates your track and sector requests into stepping motions of the write arm(s) on the drive.
Once the controller indicates that the head is positioned over your requested track, there is a latency while you wait for the "index" mark to appear which indicates the start of the track data.
At that point you supply special codes to tell the controller that you are starting a new sector, the sector number, sector size, etc, after which you send the data.
All of the sector info and data are encoded automatically by the controller and combined (at least in MFM encoding) into a bit stream.
My belief is that attempting to work out all the combinations needed to get exactly the series of 1's and 0's you want is probably not a practical solution.About the only solution I can think of that would allow you to do this is to actually hack into the signal supplied to the recording head at the end of the write arm.
That means that you will need an oscilliscope to locate the signal and determine the voltage and duration required to write 1's and 0's.
You will also need to understand whatever mechanism the drive uses to detect the index mark (the start of a track).
If the drive does not use index marks, you won't be able to align the bits on one track in relationship to the bits on any other track.
Assuming you manage to obtain all this info, you will then need to cut the drive line from the controller to the head and splice in your own drive line that will supply the raw write signals.My guess is that this will not be a practical method for achieving whatever it is you are aiming for, in which case I agree with the previous poster that recommended the use of a XY table driving a custom write head over a custom magnetic surface.On the other hand, you didn't specify that you need to be able to *read* any of the bits you want to lay down, so why not just hand in any old drive and tell them it was a piece of cake and let them worry about how to verify your work :-)On a more practical note, if what you want is to lay down an exact pattern of bits onto a magnetic surface, the easiest path might be to use a cheap off-the-shelf laser printer.
Simply create a 300 dpi image of the bit pattern and print it.
You can them pick up the pattern off the printer drum.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343526</id>
	<title>Ask Chuck Norris</title>
	<author>frenchbedroom</author>
	<datestamp>1267621500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The man can write bits on any hard drive platter just by glancing at it menacingly.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The man can write bits on any hard drive platter just by glancing at it menacingly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The man can write bits on any hard drive platter just by glancing at it menacingly.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343018</id>
	<title>Re:Sure</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267617060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Modern drives come with their own on-drive controllers, as far as I know. Chaining another controller on top will not give you any power to override the on-drive controller behavior. If the on-drive controller makes its own decisions on where and how to write data, your custom controller will not be able to override these decisions, I am afraid.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Modern drives come with their own on-drive controllers , as far as I know .
Chaining another controller on top will not give you any power to override the on-drive controller behavior .
If the on-drive controller makes its own decisions on where and how to write data , your custom controller will not be able to override these decisions , I am afraid .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Modern drives come with their own on-drive controllers, as far as I know.
Chaining another controller on top will not give you any power to override the on-drive controller behavior.
If the on-drive controller makes its own decisions on where and how to write data, your custom controller will not be able to override these decisions, I am afraid.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342826</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343910</id>
	<title>Re:Tell us your project?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267623840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>absolutely, is he trying to get a geometric magnetic pattern on the disk, etc<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... I don't care if it's to fake a RFID, or other key, but it does help understand what he's really trying to achieve</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>absolutely , is he trying to get a geometric magnetic pattern on the disk , etc ... I do n't care if it 's to fake a RFID , or other key , but it does help understand what he 's really trying to achieve</tokentext>
<sentencetext>absolutely, is he trying to get a geometric magnetic pattern on the disk, etc ... I don't care if it's to fake a RFID, or other key, but it does help understand what he's really trying to achieve</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31342940</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31344472</id>
	<title>Re:Tell us your project?</title>
	<author>Bicx</author>
	<datestamp>1267627080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Seriously. I hate it when someone asks how to accomplish a particular task and simply gets bombarded with remarks like "Why would you want to do that?," "LOL just use Python, it does it in two lines of code," etc...</htmltext>
<tokenext>Seriously .
I hate it when someone asks how to accomplish a particular task and simply gets bombarded with remarks like " Why would you want to do that ? , " " LOL just use Python , it does it in two lines of code , " etc.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seriously.
I hate it when someone asks how to accomplish a particular task and simply gets bombarded with remarks like "Why would you want to do that?," "LOL just use Python, it does it in two lines of code," etc...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_2341236.31343280</parent>
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