<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_03_02_233246</id>
	<title>$1M Prize For Finding Cause of Unintended Acceleration</title>
	<author>kdawson</author>
	<datestamp>1267557720000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>phantomfive writes <i>"Edmunds Auto has announced that it will be <a href="http://www.edmunds.com/industry-car-news/unintended-acceleration-competition.html">offering a $1 million prize</a> to anyone who can find the cause of unintended acceleration. As Wikipedia notes, this is a problem that has plagued not only Toyota, but <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden\_unintended\_acceleration">also Audi and other manufacturers</a>. Consumer Reports has some <a href="http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2010/02/how-to-fix-sua-five-key-fixes-automakers-should-make-now-to-reduce-unintended-acceleration.html">suggestions all automakers can implement</a> to solve this problem, including requiring brakes to be strong enough to stop the car even when the accelerator is floored."</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>phantomfive writes " Edmunds Auto has announced that it will be offering a $ 1 million prize to anyone who can find the cause of unintended acceleration .
As Wikipedia notes , this is a problem that has plagued not only Toyota , but also Audi and other manufacturers .
Consumer Reports has some suggestions all automakers can implement to solve this problem , including requiring brakes to be strong enough to stop the car even when the accelerator is floored .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>phantomfive writes "Edmunds Auto has announced that it will be offering a $1 million prize to anyone who can find the cause of unintended acceleration.
As Wikipedia notes, this is a problem that has plagued not only Toyota, but also Audi and other manufacturers.
Consumer Reports has some suggestions all automakers can implement to solve this problem, including requiring brakes to be strong enough to stop the car even when the accelerator is floored.
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343952</id>
	<title>This cannot be solved</title>
	<author>bytesex</author>
	<datestamp>1267624140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem is that, in order to find a solution, you must first be able to reliably reproduce the problem.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is that , in order to find a solution , you must first be able to reliably reproduce the problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is that, in order to find a solution, you must first be able to reliably reproduce the problem.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344864</id>
	<title>Re:What's with these drive by wire cars?</title>
	<author>rwa2</author>
	<datestamp>1267629000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are actually plenty of safety features that can benefit from more electronic control... stability control, traction control, anti-lock braking, limiters, automatic braking, automatic parallel parking, cruise control, etc. etc.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... things that can really help lousy drivers from losing control of their vehicle or driving too fast or too slow or absent mindedly running into things.</p><p>Some of that stuff you can and should be able to turn off (most cars you have a button to turn off stability control so if you know what you're doing you can still handle the car in slippery conditions).  Shouldn't be difficult to provide a drive-by-wire "disable" switch, which just toggles control over to simpler, more reliable controller with KISS code that doesn't incorporate all those potentially buggy features.  Maybe have it triggered by the emergency brake or shifting to neutral or something.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are actually plenty of safety features that can benefit from more electronic control... stability control , traction control , anti-lock braking , limiters , automatic braking , automatic parallel parking , cruise control , etc .
etc. ... things that can really help lousy drivers from losing control of their vehicle or driving too fast or too slow or absent mindedly running into things.Some of that stuff you can and should be able to turn off ( most cars you have a button to turn off stability control so if you know what you 're doing you can still handle the car in slippery conditions ) .
Should n't be difficult to provide a drive-by-wire " disable " switch , which just toggles control over to simpler , more reliable controller with KISS code that does n't incorporate all those potentially buggy features .
Maybe have it triggered by the emergency brake or shifting to neutral or something .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are actually plenty of safety features that can benefit from more electronic control... stability control, traction control, anti-lock braking, limiters, automatic braking, automatic parallel parking, cruise control, etc.
etc. ... things that can really help lousy drivers from losing control of their vehicle or driving too fast or too slow or absent mindedly running into things.Some of that stuff you can and should be able to turn off (most cars you have a button to turn off stability control so if you know what you're doing you can still handle the car in slippery conditions).
Shouldn't be difficult to provide a drive-by-wire "disable" switch, which just toggles control over to simpler, more reliable controller with KISS code that doesn't incorporate all those potentially buggy features.
Maybe have it triggered by the emergency brake or shifting to neutral or something.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341824</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31353192</id>
	<title>Re:AWESOME CONTEST!!!</title>
	<author>Valdez</author>
	<datestamp>1267626060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
In the Toytoa vehicles (Lexus, really) I've worked on ('01-'05 models)... there are two throttle position sensors on the throttle body. These were Lexus IS, GS, and LS... we were taking the larger inner diameter throttle bodies off the higher displacement motors and putting them on forced induction 2JZ motors in the IS300s.
</p><p>
These TBs were hybrid DBW, meaning you had some amount of throttle control via direct physical cable, and the rest controlled by electronics. If the electronics stopped functioning you could never reach full throttle.
</p><p>
The pedal is linked to the TB via a physical cable (so there's no need for 4 sensors). Both TPS output voltage on a different angle/output ratio, and the ECU is constantly comparing the two outputs. If at any time the output ratios don't agree with the expected preprogrammed curve the vehicle goes into instant limp mode, which means you lose all DBW functionality and you've got at max around 35\% throttle (via the physical cable connection)... the electric motor which drives the throttle valve through the rest of it's operating range is completely disabled. Takes a hard reset of the ECU (disconnect battery or pull the ECU) to reset from that limp mode.
</p><p>
I highly doubt any subsequently designed Toyotas use the "honor system". Even so, sensors aren't going to help you... the ECU has the capability to ignore pedal input altogether (or your cruise control couldn't work). If the ECU is saying "I need full power, Scotty!" and the sensors all agree "We're giving it all she's got!" you're still accellerating.
</p><p>
The fix is simple. Regardless of what the ECU thinks it should be doing, if the brake is applied it should override and cut throttle. Period. That will mean you hotdog-powerbraking-load-up-the-torque-convertor-and-explode-off-the-line guys will be short one trick when running from a dig, but that's why God gave us Aftermarket ECUs.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In the Toytoa vehicles ( Lexus , really ) I 've worked on ( '01-'05 models ) ... there are two throttle position sensors on the throttle body .
These were Lexus IS , GS , and LS... we were taking the larger inner diameter throttle bodies off the higher displacement motors and putting them on forced induction 2JZ motors in the IS300s .
These TBs were hybrid DBW , meaning you had some amount of throttle control via direct physical cable , and the rest controlled by electronics .
If the electronics stopped functioning you could never reach full throttle .
The pedal is linked to the TB via a physical cable ( so there 's no need for 4 sensors ) .
Both TPS output voltage on a different angle/output ratio , and the ECU is constantly comparing the two outputs .
If at any time the output ratios do n't agree with the expected preprogrammed curve the vehicle goes into instant limp mode , which means you lose all DBW functionality and you 've got at max around 35 \ % throttle ( via the physical cable connection ) ... the electric motor which drives the throttle valve through the rest of it 's operating range is completely disabled .
Takes a hard reset of the ECU ( disconnect battery or pull the ECU ) to reset from that limp mode .
I highly doubt any subsequently designed Toyotas use the " honor system " .
Even so , sensors are n't going to help you... the ECU has the capability to ignore pedal input altogether ( or your cruise control could n't work ) .
If the ECU is saying " I need full power , Scotty !
" and the sensors all agree " We 're giving it all she 's got !
" you 're still accellerating .
The fix is simple .
Regardless of what the ECU thinks it should be doing , if the brake is applied it should override and cut throttle .
Period. That will mean you hotdog-powerbraking-load-up-the-torque-convertor-and-explode-off-the-line guys will be short one trick when running from a dig , but that 's why God gave us Aftermarket ECUs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
In the Toytoa vehicles (Lexus, really) I've worked on ('01-'05 models)... there are two throttle position sensors on the throttle body.
These were Lexus IS, GS, and LS... we were taking the larger inner diameter throttle bodies off the higher displacement motors and putting them on forced induction 2JZ motors in the IS300s.
These TBs were hybrid DBW, meaning you had some amount of throttle control via direct physical cable, and the rest controlled by electronics.
If the electronics stopped functioning you could never reach full throttle.
The pedal is linked to the TB via a physical cable (so there's no need for 4 sensors).
Both TPS output voltage on a different angle/output ratio, and the ECU is constantly comparing the two outputs.
If at any time the output ratios don't agree with the expected preprogrammed curve the vehicle goes into instant limp mode, which means you lose all DBW functionality and you've got at max around 35\% throttle (via the physical cable connection)... the electric motor which drives the throttle valve through the rest of it's operating range is completely disabled.
Takes a hard reset of the ECU (disconnect battery or pull the ECU) to reset from that limp mode.
I highly doubt any subsequently designed Toyotas use the "honor system".
Even so, sensors aren't going to help you... the ECU has the capability to ignore pedal input altogether (or your cruise control couldn't work).
If the ECU is saying "I need full power, Scotty!
" and the sensors all agree "We're giving it all she's got!
" you're still accellerating.
The fix is simple.
Regardless of what the ECU thinks it should be doing, if the brake is applied it should override and cut throttle.
Period. That will mean you hotdog-powerbraking-load-up-the-torque-convertor-and-explode-off-the-line guys will be short one trick when running from a dig, but that's why God gave us Aftermarket ECUs.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344144</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31347102</id>
	<title>Re:"The" cause</title>
	<author>uberjack</author>
	<datestamp>1267638480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Speak for yourself, skintube.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Speak for yourself , skintube .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Speak for yourself, skintube.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341616</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342176</id>
	<title>Kinda Obvious</title>
	<author>Sitnalta</author>
	<datestamp>1267609440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Here's a concept. If a drive-by-wire system must be installed, find an analog solution instead of having it controlled by software. Computers are great and all but they shouldn't have this level of control on something that can so easily cause mayhem. The technology might be there, but the quality control isn't.</p><p>Ultimately this problem isn't that mysterious. Toyota made a mistake and tried to cover it up instead of admitting they had a serious flaw and taking the appropriate steps. It's all greed and individual ass-covering within the company. Defective throttle controls are only a symptom.</p><p>Furthermore, I'd guess that probably nobody here except me has ever experienced an "uncontrolled acceleration" scenario, let me tell you that it is on of the most terrifying thing you can imagine, and it's impossible to react flawlessly. Everybody considers themselves a good driver (feh) but quick thinking under a life or death situation is completely different. The fight or flight reflex doesn't cover "shift into neutral and turn off ignition." You are not a professional driver, you are not the Knight Rider, you will probably crash before you get around to turning off the engine. It not stupidity, it's just the way our brains are built.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Here 's a concept .
If a drive-by-wire system must be installed , find an analog solution instead of having it controlled by software .
Computers are great and all but they should n't have this level of control on something that can so easily cause mayhem .
The technology might be there , but the quality control is n't.Ultimately this problem is n't that mysterious .
Toyota made a mistake and tried to cover it up instead of admitting they had a serious flaw and taking the appropriate steps .
It 's all greed and individual ass-covering within the company .
Defective throttle controls are only a symptom.Furthermore , I 'd guess that probably nobody here except me has ever experienced an " uncontrolled acceleration " scenario , let me tell you that it is on of the most terrifying thing you can imagine , and it 's impossible to react flawlessly .
Everybody considers themselves a good driver ( feh ) but quick thinking under a life or death situation is completely different .
The fight or flight reflex does n't cover " shift into neutral and turn off ignition .
" You are not a professional driver , you are not the Knight Rider , you will probably crash before you get around to turning off the engine .
It not stupidity , it 's just the way our brains are built .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here's a concept.
If a drive-by-wire system must be installed, find an analog solution instead of having it controlled by software.
Computers are great and all but they shouldn't have this level of control on something that can so easily cause mayhem.
The technology might be there, but the quality control isn't.Ultimately this problem isn't that mysterious.
Toyota made a mistake and tried to cover it up instead of admitting they had a serious flaw and taking the appropriate steps.
It's all greed and individual ass-covering within the company.
Defective throttle controls are only a symptom.Furthermore, I'd guess that probably nobody here except me has ever experienced an "uncontrolled acceleration" scenario, let me tell you that it is on of the most terrifying thing you can imagine, and it's impossible to react flawlessly.
Everybody considers themselves a good driver (feh) but quick thinking under a life or death situation is completely different.
The fight or flight reflex doesn't cover "shift into neutral and turn off ignition.
" You are not a professional driver, you are not the Knight Rider, you will probably crash before you get around to turning off the engine.
It not stupidity, it's just the way our brains are built.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342574</id>
	<title>Re:Kill Switch?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267612920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, older cars could stop and go just as well as new ones (Well, they go.  They don't stop as well if you count ABS), but they were also significantly less fuel efficient and likewise produced much more emissions.  Modern cars need electronics to deal with realtime monitoring and adjustment of O2 levels and the like, to achieve this increase in efficiency.  I imagine there is a certain degree of unnecessary complexity in modern cars, but totally eliminating silicon is not the answer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , older cars could stop and go just as well as new ones ( Well , they go .
They do n't stop as well if you count ABS ) , but they were also significantly less fuel efficient and likewise produced much more emissions .
Modern cars need electronics to deal with realtime monitoring and adjustment of O2 levels and the like , to achieve this increase in efficiency .
I imagine there is a certain degree of unnecessary complexity in modern cars , but totally eliminating silicon is not the answer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, older cars could stop and go just as well as new ones (Well, they go.
They don't stop as well if you count ABS), but they were also significantly less fuel efficient and likewise produced much more emissions.
Modern cars need electronics to deal with realtime monitoring and adjustment of O2 levels and the like, to achieve this increase in efficiency.
I imagine there is a certain degree of unnecessary complexity in modern cars, but totally eliminating silicon is not the answer.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342026</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342504</id>
	<title>Re:Hmmm....</title>
	<author>ultranova</author>
	<datestamp>1267612440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How the idea of "drive by wire" became popular is beyond me.</p><p>Because it allows better control of engine running parameters, which in turn allows lower fuel usage and emissions and greater power, at least in theory.</p><p>Steering, braking, throttle, and gear selection should never be done fully by electronics and remain in the drivers hands...along with the ability to kill power to the engine for that matter.</p><p>You can easily cut power to the engine any time you wish. Just turn the ignition key to "off" position. You are right about steering and braking, these must work even if a computer fucks up. Dunno about gear selection - frankly, I'd love to automate it so I wouldn't need to worry about them, and there's very little if any safety gain to be able to change them by hand, because the car's speed and engine speed must match with the gear's ratio to engage it anyway.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How the idea of " drive by wire " became popular is beyond me.Because it allows better control of engine running parameters , which in turn allows lower fuel usage and emissions and greater power , at least in theory.Steering , braking , throttle , and gear selection should never be done fully by electronics and remain in the drivers hands...along with the ability to kill power to the engine for that matter.You can easily cut power to the engine any time you wish .
Just turn the ignition key to " off " position .
You are right about steering and braking , these must work even if a computer fucks up .
Dunno about gear selection - frankly , I 'd love to automate it so I would n't need to worry about them , and there 's very little if any safety gain to be able to change them by hand , because the car 's speed and engine speed must match with the gear 's ratio to engage it anyway .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How the idea of "drive by wire" became popular is beyond me.Because it allows better control of engine running parameters, which in turn allows lower fuel usage and emissions and greater power, at least in theory.Steering, braking, throttle, and gear selection should never be done fully by electronics and remain in the drivers hands...along with the ability to kill power to the engine for that matter.You can easily cut power to the engine any time you wish.
Just turn the ignition key to "off" position.
You are right about steering and braking, these must work even if a computer fucks up.
Dunno about gear selection - frankly, I'd love to automate it so I wouldn't need to worry about them, and there's very little if any safety gain to be able to change them by hand, because the car's speed and engine speed must match with the gear's ratio to engage it anyway.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341660</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342000</id>
	<title>Re:What's with these drive by wire cars?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267607880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> If done correctly it is not more dangerous.  mechanical cables and linkages fail too.  What you get out of it is greater flexibility in the design and added control that lets the designer improve efficiency.  for example it is generally better to ramp the throttle open rather than snap the butterfly open -- snapping it open causes a sudden loss of vacuum in the manifold which kills airflow for a fraction of a second.  You'll get better fuel economy and the engine performance will be improved.  Coming in the not too distant future is electronic steering.  Removing the mechanical connection to the steering wheel will make it possible to repackage the system without having to worry about shaft angles; and, will improve safety in accidents because there won't be a steering column to get in the way and crush legs.</p><p>Drive by wire aka fly by wire is technology that's been used in aircraft for two decades now and is only just finding its way into cars.  </p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If done correctly it is not more dangerous .
mechanical cables and linkages fail too .
What you get out of it is greater flexibility in the design and added control that lets the designer improve efficiency .
for example it is generally better to ramp the throttle open rather than snap the butterfly open -- snapping it open causes a sudden loss of vacuum in the manifold which kills airflow for a fraction of a second .
You 'll get better fuel economy and the engine performance will be improved .
Coming in the not too distant future is electronic steering .
Removing the mechanical connection to the steering wheel will make it possible to repackage the system without having to worry about shaft angles ; and , will improve safety in accidents because there wo n't be a steering column to get in the way and crush legs.Drive by wire aka fly by wire is technology that 's been used in aircraft for two decades now and is only just finding its way into cars .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> If done correctly it is not more dangerous.
mechanical cables and linkages fail too.
What you get out of it is greater flexibility in the design and added control that lets the designer improve efficiency.
for example it is generally better to ramp the throttle open rather than snap the butterfly open -- snapping it open causes a sudden loss of vacuum in the manifold which kills airflow for a fraction of a second.
You'll get better fuel economy and the engine performance will be improved.
Coming in the not too distant future is electronic steering.
Removing the mechanical connection to the steering wheel will make it possible to repackage the system without having to worry about shaft angles; and, will improve safety in accidents because there won't be a steering column to get in the way and crush legs.Drive by wire aka fly by wire is technology that's been used in aircraft for two decades now and is only just finding its way into cars.  </sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341824</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31353962</id>
	<title>Re:Brakes!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267632120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Every car I have ever tried it on, the brakes hold the car still with the gas floored. The problem is thatif you are alrady moving it can take a much farther distance than you expect, and many people will let off th brakes, then try again. That is th worst that you can do. A few of these and yo have glowing pads and rotors that no longer grip.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Every car I have ever tried it on , the brakes hold the car still with the gas floored .
The problem is thatif you are alrady moving it can take a much farther distance than you expect , and many people will let off th brakes , then try again .
That is th worst that you can do .
A few of these and yo have glowing pads and rotors that no longer grip .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Every car I have ever tried it on, the brakes hold the car still with the gas floored.
The problem is thatif you are alrady moving it can take a much farther distance than you expect, and many people will let off th brakes, then try again.
That is th worst that you can do.
A few of these and yo have glowing pads and rotors that no longer grip.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341770</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31348766</id>
	<title>Re:Hmmm....</title>
	<author>Lisandro</author>
	<datestamp>1267646100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>How the idea of "drive by wire" became popular is beyond me.</i></p><p>It became popular because it WORKS. Yes, is more complicated and needs a <b>lot</b> of testing in order to get something ready for the road, but the benefits outweigtht the drawbacks. If the aerospace and trucking industry have been able to do it right for so long, why couldn't the automotive one do the same?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How the idea of " drive by wire " became popular is beyond me.It became popular because it WORKS .
Yes , is more complicated and needs a lot of testing in order to get something ready for the road , but the benefits outweigtht the drawbacks .
If the aerospace and trucking industry have been able to do it right for so long , why could n't the automotive one do the same ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How the idea of "drive by wire" became popular is beyond me.It became popular because it WORKS.
Yes, is more complicated and needs a lot of testing in order to get something ready for the road, but the benefits outweigtht the drawbacks.
If the aerospace and trucking industry have been able to do it right for so long, why couldn't the automotive one do the same?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341660</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343588</id>
	<title>Isaac Asimov</title>
	<author>yabos</author>
	<datestamp>1267621800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Ghosts in the machine.  You see, random bits of computer code can clump together and form unintended actions. At least that's what I've read in this crazy book.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Ghosts in the machine .
You see , random bits of computer code can clump together and form unintended actions .
At least that 's what I 've read in this crazy book .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ghosts in the machine.
You see, random bits of computer code can clump together and form unintended actions.
At least that's what I've read in this crazy book.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344046</id>
	<title>Re:Misleading summary</title>
	<author>icebrain</author>
	<datestamp>1267624740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, because then then the car manufacturers wouldn't be able to make new models every year--they'd have to run the same one for a while to recoup the certification costs.  Marketing and design are more important, you see.</p><p>That's not to say the aircraft certification process is the greatest thing in the world; some of the requirements are a little excessive for things like four-seat piston singles, and that's one of the reasons flying is so damned expensive.  That, and litigation-happy ambulance chasers with their dumb-as-rocks juries.  Pilot takes off into bad weather he's trained specifically to avoid?  Oops, manufacturer's fault.  Poorly-maintained twenty-year-old engine or airplane breaks?  Manufacturer's fault.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , because then then the car manufacturers would n't be able to make new models every year--they 'd have to run the same one for a while to recoup the certification costs .
Marketing and design are more important , you see.That 's not to say the aircraft certification process is the greatest thing in the world ; some of the requirements are a little excessive for things like four-seat piston singles , and that 's one of the reasons flying is so damned expensive .
That , and litigation-happy ambulance chasers with their dumb-as-rocks juries .
Pilot takes off into bad weather he 's trained specifically to avoid ?
Oops , manufacturer 's fault .
Poorly-maintained twenty-year-old engine or airplane breaks ?
Manufacturer 's fault .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, because then then the car manufacturers wouldn't be able to make new models every year--they'd have to run the same one for a while to recoup the certification costs.
Marketing and design are more important, you see.That's not to say the aircraft certification process is the greatest thing in the world; some of the requirements are a little excessive for things like four-seat piston singles, and that's one of the reasons flying is so damned expensive.
That, and litigation-happy ambulance chasers with their dumb-as-rocks juries.
Pilot takes off into bad weather he's trained specifically to avoid?
Oops, manufacturer's fault.
Poorly-maintained twenty-year-old engine or airplane breaks?
Manufacturer's fault.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342232</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345144</id>
	<title>Re:Me thinks</title>
	<author>WCguru42</author>
	<datestamp>1267630260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>&gt; </p><p>I can drive, and prefer brakes that can lock the wheel on dry asphalt at highway speeds.</p></div><p>Why, may I ask, do you prefer brakes that lessen the control you have over your vehicle.  I would much prefer brakes and tires that let me get close to that but never actually lock the wheels.  Kinetic friction is not your friend.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; I can drive , and prefer brakes that can lock the wheel on dry asphalt at highway speeds.Why , may I ask , do you prefer brakes that lessen the control you have over your vehicle .
I would much prefer brakes and tires that let me get close to that but never actually lock the wheels .
Kinetic friction is not your friend .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; I can drive, and prefer brakes that can lock the wheel on dry asphalt at highway speeds.Why, may I ask, do you prefer brakes that lessen the control you have over your vehicle.
I would much prefer brakes and tires that let me get close to that but never actually lock the wheels.
Kinetic friction is not your friend.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342430</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344522</id>
	<title>Re:Turn the key off or put the car in neutral.....</title>
	<author>Palmateer</author>
	<datestamp>1267627320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'll consider myself fortunate that I couldn't afford anything better than a piece of shit when I first started driving.  You quickly learn how to handle situations where the engine stalls at any speed (76 Volare), or the clutch cable breaks (79 Colt), or the throttle freezes wide open (90 Jetta), or you lose the accessory belt.

Although many people panic there is no reason to.  Power steering and power brakes are power *ASSIST*.  They still work whether there is power or not.  Depending on the design you will get more or less reserve assist on the brakes, but certainly enough to stop the car easily if you don't panic and pump them.  Even after that they will still work but with greater effort required.

If the car is accelerating independently of the pedal and you don't feel comfortable shutting the engine off then by all means, put it in neutral.  Depending on the vehicle you might blow the engine, but hey, it's better than killing someone.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'll consider myself fortunate that I could n't afford anything better than a piece of shit when I first started driving .
You quickly learn how to handle situations where the engine stalls at any speed ( 76 Volare ) , or the clutch cable breaks ( 79 Colt ) , or the throttle freezes wide open ( 90 Jetta ) , or you lose the accessory belt .
Although many people panic there is no reason to .
Power steering and power brakes are power * ASSIST * .
They still work whether there is power or not .
Depending on the design you will get more or less reserve assist on the brakes , but certainly enough to stop the car easily if you do n't panic and pump them .
Even after that they will still work but with greater effort required .
If the car is accelerating independently of the pedal and you do n't feel comfortable shutting the engine off then by all means , put it in neutral .
Depending on the vehicle you might blow the engine , but hey , it 's better than killing someone .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'll consider myself fortunate that I couldn't afford anything better than a piece of shit when I first started driving.
You quickly learn how to handle situations where the engine stalls at any speed (76 Volare), or the clutch cable breaks (79 Colt), or the throttle freezes wide open (90 Jetta), or you lose the accessory belt.
Although many people panic there is no reason to.
Power steering and power brakes are power *ASSIST*.
They still work whether there is power or not.
Depending on the design you will get more or less reserve assist on the brakes, but certainly enough to stop the car easily if you don't panic and pump them.
Even after that they will still work but with greater effort required.
If the car is accelerating independently of the pedal and you don't feel comfortable shutting the engine off then by all means, put it in neutral.
Depending on the vehicle you might blow the engine, but hey, it's better than killing someone.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341714</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344468</id>
	<title>Re:You can NOT "just put it in neutral"...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267627080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Obviously a defective design. The Honda Fit will let you do this.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Obviously a defective design .
The Honda Fit will let you do this .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Obviously a defective design.
The Honda Fit will let you do this.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342734</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31347382</id>
	<title>Re:Kill Switch?</title>
	<author>s122604</author>
	<datestamp>1267639500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>It's not a bad idea, but, have you ever tried to steer a car with no power steering, or stop a car with no power brakes? Fighting all of those dead hydraulics is not easy.</p></div><p>
I'm a larger than average male, in my mid 30s and I've had to do it in my mini van because of a mechanical failure, it was not easy. Anybody with any kind of physical problem (or just those who are old/small) would be put in an really bad position...

Maybe its the lesser of two evils, I dunno...</p><p><div class="quote"><p>WTF does a *car* need all that computing power for? I've driven dozens of cars without a single microchip in them - they started, they stopped, they did everything you'd reasonably expect a piece of personal transport to do.</p></div><p>All those microchips make cars cleaner (modern emission control systems are computer controled), safer (antilock brakes ESC are proven lifesavers), more efficient (electronically controlled timing, fuel/air mix, etc), and more reliable (MTBF for autos has went down in the last 30 years, not up)  </p><p>That's not to might light of the glaring failures that may or may not be at the root cause of the spectacular issues going on at the moment, but as a whole vetronics are a good thing..</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's not a bad idea , but , have you ever tried to steer a car with no power steering , or stop a car with no power brakes ?
Fighting all of those dead hydraulics is not easy .
I 'm a larger than average male , in my mid 30s and I 've had to do it in my mini van because of a mechanical failure , it was not easy .
Anybody with any kind of physical problem ( or just those who are old/small ) would be put in an really bad position.. . Maybe its the lesser of two evils , I dunno...WTF does a * car * need all that computing power for ?
I 've driven dozens of cars without a single microchip in them - they started , they stopped , they did everything you 'd reasonably expect a piece of personal transport to do.All those microchips make cars cleaner ( modern emission control systems are computer controled ) , safer ( antilock brakes ESC are proven lifesavers ) , more efficient ( electronically controlled timing , fuel/air mix , etc ) , and more reliable ( MTBF for autos has went down in the last 30 years , not up ) That 's not to might light of the glaring failures that may or may not be at the root cause of the spectacular issues going on at the moment , but as a whole vetronics are a good thing. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's not a bad idea, but, have you ever tried to steer a car with no power steering, or stop a car with no power brakes?
Fighting all of those dead hydraulics is not easy.
I'm a larger than average male, in my mid 30s and I've had to do it in my mini van because of a mechanical failure, it was not easy.
Anybody with any kind of physical problem (or just those who are old/small) would be put in an really bad position...

Maybe its the lesser of two evils, I dunno...WTF does a *car* need all that computing power for?
I've driven dozens of cars without a single microchip in them - they started, they stopped, they did everything you'd reasonably expect a piece of personal transport to do.All those microchips make cars cleaner (modern emission control systems are computer controled), safer (antilock brakes ESC are proven lifesavers), more efficient (electronically controlled timing, fuel/air mix, etc), and more reliable (MTBF for autos has went down in the last 30 years, not up)  That's not to might light of the glaring failures that may or may not be at the root cause of the spectacular issues going on at the moment, but as a whole vetronics are a good thing..
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342026</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341880</id>
	<title>Drive by wire</title>
	<author>Fotograf</author>
	<datestamp>1267606980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>miss-contact, thanks for 1M</htmltext>
<tokenext>miss-contact , thanks for 1M</tokentext>
<sentencetext>miss-contact, thanks for 1M</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342618</id>
	<title>Re:Kill Switch?</title>
	<author>Tromad</author>
	<datestamp>1267613280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm not trying to be flaimbait, but do you know how many sue-happy morons exist, at least within the US? Uncontrollable kids accidentally hitting the off switch going 15mph over the limit on the freeway, probably cutting off the power steering, is one example. We can't even get people to stay off the phone when they drive.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not trying to be flaimbait , but do you know how many sue-happy morons exist , at least within the US ?
Uncontrollable kids accidentally hitting the off switch going 15mph over the limit on the freeway , probably cutting off the power steering , is one example .
We ca n't even get people to stay off the phone when they drive .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not trying to be flaimbait, but do you know how many sue-happy morons exist, at least within the US?
Uncontrollable kids accidentally hitting the off switch going 15mph over the limit on the freeway, probably cutting off the power steering, is one example.
We can't even get people to stay off the phone when they drive.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342026</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342278</id>
	<title>Re:Solution</title>
	<author>abigsmurf</author>
	<datestamp>1267610640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>All well and good until someone finds power randomly cutting out because they brushed the brake with their foot, the spring for the brake has sagged or the brake sensors themselves are faulty.
<br> <br>
Loss of power when manoeuvring can be as dangerous as the brakes failing.
<br> <br>
Every been behind a car with flickering brake lights because they rest their foot on the brake?</htmltext>
<tokenext>All well and good until someone finds power randomly cutting out because they brushed the brake with their foot , the spring for the brake has sagged or the brake sensors themselves are faulty .
Loss of power when manoeuvring can be as dangerous as the brakes failing .
Every been behind a car with flickering brake lights because they rest their foot on the brake ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>All well and good until someone finds power randomly cutting out because they brushed the brake with their foot, the spring for the brake has sagged or the brake sensors themselves are faulty.
Loss of power when manoeuvring can be as dangerous as the brakes failing.
Every been behind a car with flickering brake lights because they rest their foot on the brake?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341790</id>
	<title>All cars already have this system</title>
	<author>trenton</author>
	<datestamp>1267649640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>It's called neutral, and it's a feature of your transmission. It disconnects the engine from the wheels. Transmissions, both manual and automatic, are designed to easily select neutral, for emergencies like this.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's called neutral , and it 's a feature of your transmission .
It disconnects the engine from the wheels .
Transmissions , both manual and automatic , are designed to easily select neutral , for emergencies like this .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's called neutral, and it's a feature of your transmission.
It disconnects the engine from the wheels.
Transmissions, both manual and automatic, are designed to easily select neutral, for emergencies like this.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31346072</id>
	<title>Re:You can NOT "just put it in neutral"...</title>
	<author>asdfghjklqwertyuiop</author>
	<datestamp>1267634160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>On two toyotas I've owned you can shift between neutral and drive at any time and without hitting the button on the shifter. I have done so at accident a couple times before (at least once on the freeway) and nothing bad happened. I let off the gas, shifted back in to drive (at speed) and everything was fine.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>On two toyotas I 've owned you can shift between neutral and drive at any time and without hitting the button on the shifter .
I have done so at accident a couple times before ( at least once on the freeway ) and nothing bad happened .
I let off the gas , shifted back in to drive ( at speed ) and everything was fine .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On two toyotas I've owned you can shift between neutral and drive at any time and without hitting the button on the shifter.
I have done so at accident a couple times before (at least once on the freeway) and nothing bad happened.
I let off the gas, shifted back in to drive (at speed) and everything was fine.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343840</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343142</id>
	<title>It's called a clutch.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267618080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My car has the best anti-unintended acceleration device invented.  It's called a clutch.</p><p>Today it doubles as a great anti-theft device because the young punks trying to steal cars don't know what they are, let alone how to drive them.</p><p>Now get off my LAN/LAWN.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My car has the best anti-unintended acceleration device invented .
It 's called a clutch.Today it doubles as a great anti-theft device because the young punks trying to steal cars do n't know what they are , let alone how to drive them.Now get off my LAN/LAWN .
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My car has the best anti-unintended acceleration device invented.
It's called a clutch.Today it doubles as a great anti-theft device because the young punks trying to steal cars don't know what they are, let alone how to drive them.Now get off my LAN/LAWN.
:)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341996</id>
	<title>unsigned integer overflow?</title>
	<author>cfriedt</author>
	<datestamp>1267607880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>( 0 - 1 ) mod 8 = 255 mod 8 ?

Could also be some lazy ass not properly checking the sign of a return value (-1 often usually means error), and then passing it to another function as an unsigned value.

Funny that people often think that dsp / computer engineers have less pressure to be legally responsible for the breakages caused by their broken code. If a wall fell over and killed someone because the engineer messed up the decimal  point, then there would definitely be some legal action.</htmltext>
<tokenext>( 0 - 1 ) mod 8 = 255 mod 8 ?
Could also be some lazy ass not properly checking the sign of a return value ( -1 often usually means error ) , and then passing it to another function as an unsigned value .
Funny that people often think that dsp / computer engineers have less pressure to be legally responsible for the breakages caused by their broken code .
If a wall fell over and killed someone because the engineer messed up the decimal point , then there would definitely be some legal action .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>( 0 - 1 ) mod 8 = 255 mod 8 ?
Could also be some lazy ass not properly checking the sign of a return value (-1 often usually means error), and then passing it to another function as an unsigned value.
Funny that people often think that dsp / computer engineers have less pressure to be legally responsible for the breakages caused by their broken code.
If a wall fell over and killed someone because the engineer messed up the decimal  point, then there would definitely be some legal action.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31353292</id>
	<title>Re:Kill Switch?</title>
	<author>SpaceCadets</author>
	<datestamp>1267627140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Haha, sounds like my mum, didn't realize her auto was in gear when she was trying to start it, called the RACV (breakdown service), fastest 'repair' ever!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:D</htmltext>
<tokenext>Haha , sounds like my mum , did n't realize her auto was in gear when she was trying to start it , called the RACV ( breakdown service ) , fastest 'repair ' ever !
: D</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Haha, sounds like my mum, didn't realize her auto was in gear when she was trying to start it, called the RACV (breakdown service), fastest 'repair' ever!
:D</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342554</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342960</id>
	<title>Re:Me thinks</title>
	<author>daem0n1x</author>
	<datestamp>1267616520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think the main cause of the problem is American press influenced by GM trying create mass hysteria to make the auto market leaders look like shit. Good luck.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think the main cause of the problem is American press influenced by GM trying create mass hysteria to make the auto market leaders look like shit .
Good luck .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think the main cause of the problem is American press influenced by GM trying create mass hysteria to make the auto market leaders look like shit.
Good luck.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341558</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343914</id>
	<title>Re:Kill Switch?</title>
	<author>Rainwulf</author>
	<datestamp>1267623840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>now you did it.<br>Nice work.<br>The secret is out now.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>now you did it.Nice work.The secret is out now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>now you did it.Nice work.The secret is out now.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342026</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31347326</id>
	<title>Re:Idiocy.</title>
	<author>fahrbot-bot</author>
	<datestamp>1267639320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>As someone else said, shifting just sends a signal to the transmission. You're not directly controlling any gears.</p></div>
</blockquote><p>
Two words: Manual Transmission
</p><p>
[I won't buy a car w/auto.]</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>As someone else said , shifting just sends a signal to the transmission .
You 're not directly controlling any gears .
Two words : Manual Transmission [ I wo n't buy a car w/auto .
]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As someone else said, shifting just sends a signal to the transmission.
You're not directly controlling any gears.
Two words: Manual Transmission

[I won't buy a car w/auto.
]
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341764</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345696</id>
	<title>Magnetics</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267632540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The answer is simple....Magnetic's</p><p>now where do I pickup my $1M?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The answer is simple....Magnetic'snow where do I pickup my $ 1M ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The answer is simple....Magnetic'snow where do I pickup my $1M?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341660</id>
	<title>Hmmm....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267648560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How about some sort of a mechanical linkage between the throttle body and the pedal....oh wait...where have I seen this before?</p><p>How the idea of "drive by wire" became popular is beyond me. There are some things that need to remain simple, and in human control. Steering, braking, throttle, and gear selection should never be done fully by electronics and remain in the drivers hands...along with the ability to kill power to the engine for that matter.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How about some sort of a mechanical linkage between the throttle body and the pedal....oh wait...where have I seen this before ? How the idea of " drive by wire " became popular is beyond me .
There are some things that need to remain simple , and in human control .
Steering , braking , throttle , and gear selection should never be done fully by electronics and remain in the drivers hands...along with the ability to kill power to the engine for that matter .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about some sort of a mechanical linkage between the throttle body and the pedal....oh wait...where have I seen this before?How the idea of "drive by wire" became popular is beyond me.
There are some things that need to remain simple, and in human control.
Steering, braking, throttle, and gear selection should never be done fully by electronics and remain in the drivers hands...along with the ability to kill power to the engine for that matter.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342430</id>
	<title>Re:Me thinks</title>
	<author>ultranova</author>
	<datestamp>1267611720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>If this is indeed the case, putting bigger brakes on the cars will just increase the cost of ownership for those of us who \_can\_ drive.</p></div> </blockquote><p>I can drive, and prefer brakes that can lock the wheel on dry asphalt at highway speeds.</p><p>In any case, these are hybrid cars where the electric engine is doing the actual turning of wheels, right? The solution is simple then: just put a switch underneath the bake pedal that physically disconnects power to the engine when the brake is depressed.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If this is indeed the case , putting bigger brakes on the cars will just increase the cost of ownership for those of us who \ _can \ _ drive .
I can drive , and prefer brakes that can lock the wheel on dry asphalt at highway speeds.In any case , these are hybrid cars where the electric engine is doing the actual turning of wheels , right ?
The solution is simple then : just put a switch underneath the bake pedal that physically disconnects power to the engine when the brake is depressed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If this is indeed the case, putting bigger brakes on the cars will just increase the cost of ownership for those of us who \_can\_ drive.
I can drive, and prefer brakes that can lock the wheel on dry asphalt at highway speeds.In any case, these are hybrid cars where the electric engine is doing the actual turning of wheels, right?
The solution is simple then: just put a switch underneath the bake pedal that physically disconnects power to the engine when the brake is depressed.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341592</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342624</id>
	<title>Re:What's with these drive by wire cars?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267613400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>i can't see steering being turned to an electronic thing... as where i live.. and in many other places.. things like purely hydraulic steering are illegal</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>i ca n't see steering being turned to an electronic thing... as where i live.. and in many other places.. things like purely hydraulic steering are illegal</tokentext>
<sentencetext>i can't see steering being turned to an electronic thing... as where i live.. and in many other places.. things like purely hydraulic steering are illegal</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342000</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345612</id>
	<title>Re:Turn the key off or put the car in neutral.....</title>
	<author>jo\_ham</author>
	<datestamp>1267632180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As several people have pointed out, people have been driving heavy cars without PAS for a long time, and even if it fails on you, the faster the car is moving the easier it is to steer. I bet you would be totally unable to determine whether the assist was working at highway speeds.</p><p>(and yes, I did drive a non-assisted car for nearly 10 years).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As several people have pointed out , people have been driving heavy cars without PAS for a long time , and even if it fails on you , the faster the car is moving the easier it is to steer .
I bet you would be totally unable to determine whether the assist was working at highway speeds .
( and yes , I did drive a non-assisted car for nearly 10 years ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As several people have pointed out, people have been driving heavy cars without PAS for a long time, and even if it fails on you, the faster the car is moving the easier it is to steer.
I bet you would be totally unable to determine whether the assist was working at highway speeds.
(and yes, I did drive a non-assisted car for nearly 10 years).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341912</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342056</id>
	<title>Re:two voters</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267608360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>maybe because voting algorithms that only have two voters are total fail?</p></div><p>No, it's not.  In an electronic voting system with two voters, if they do not agree, you throw an error then safe the system and shut down.  Two voters is enough to know you have a failure; but, not enough to continue operating.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>maybe because voting algorithms that only have two voters are total fail ? No , it 's not .
In an electronic voting system with two voters , if they do not agree , you throw an error then safe the system and shut down .
Two voters is enough to know you have a failure ; but , not enough to continue operating .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>maybe because voting algorithms that only have two voters are total fail?No, it's not.
In an electronic voting system with two voters, if they do not agree, you throw an error then safe the system and shut down.
Two voters is enough to know you have a failure; but, not enough to continue operating.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341624</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343430</id>
	<title>You're kidding, right? 1 Million?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267620780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>For finding a flaw which will easily cost the industry hundreds of millions in court settlements if left unfixed, with no documentation to go by and at the risk of being sued for negatively impacting your business when results leak to the public, you are only willing to pay one million dollars? Why don't you simply redesign the thing from scratch? That should only cost a couple thousand, if you're that cheap.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>For finding a flaw which will easily cost the industry hundreds of millions in court settlements if left unfixed , with no documentation to go by and at the risk of being sued for negatively impacting your business when results leak to the public , you are only willing to pay one million dollars ?
Why do n't you simply redesign the thing from scratch ?
That should only cost a couple thousand , if you 're that cheap .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For finding a flaw which will easily cost the industry hundreds of millions in court settlements if left unfixed, with no documentation to go by and at the risk of being sued for negatively impacting your business when results leak to the public, you are only willing to pay one million dollars?
Why don't you simply redesign the thing from scratch?
That should only cost a couple thousand, if you're that cheap.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343106</id>
	<title>Re:Kill Switch?</title>
	<author>L4t3r4lu5</author>
	<datestamp>1267617840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The solution to your uncontrollable kids problem: <a href="http://www.crelling.com/CB\%20SINGLE\%20SEAT.html" title="crelling.com">Crelling Harnesses - Challenging Behaviour</a> [crelling.com] <br> <br>Alternatively, keep unruly kids indoors unless they behave properly. Parenting isn't easy.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The solution to your uncontrollable kids problem : Crelling Harnesses - Challenging Behaviour [ crelling.com ] Alternatively , keep unruly kids indoors unless they behave properly .
Parenting is n't easy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The solution to your uncontrollable kids problem: Crelling Harnesses - Challenging Behaviour [crelling.com]  Alternatively, keep unruly kids indoors unless they behave properly.
Parenting isn't easy.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342618</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342756</id>
	<title>Re:Kill Switch?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267614540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hmmm, in my youth I've heard of such a switch, I think it was called a clutch pedal.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hmmm , in my youth I 've heard of such a switch , I think it was called a clutch pedal .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hmmm, in my youth I've heard of such a switch, I think it was called a clutch pedal.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342026</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344846</id>
	<title>Lemme try</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267629000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Lemme try. A plume of "gas" from a bystander's back (a pedestrian maybe) gets into the manifold. hence the sudden acceleration.<br>My million dollar please.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Lem me try .
A plume of " gas " from a bystander 's back ( a pedestrian maybe ) gets into the manifold .
hence the sudden acceleration.My million dollar please .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Lemme try.
A plume of "gas" from a bystander's back (a pedestrian maybe) gets into the manifold.
hence the sudden acceleration.My million dollar please.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345014</id>
	<title>pots &amp; encoders fail with unpredicable results</title>
	<author>gundersd</author>
	<datestamp>1267629720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>
<p>If these cars are drive-by-wire then I'd be suspecting that the potentiometers and/or positional encoders that are used to read the throttle position are failing (or starting to fail) as potentiometers and encoders do.</p><p>Can anybody in the know verify what sort of technology is used to actually read the throttle position in cars these-days (not for the TPS sensor so much - but for the drive-by-wire setup)?   I'm hoping it's not potentiometers because the resistive layer can wear through on those with age causing unreliable behaviour.  Even if they're using rotary or optical encoders, they can have dodgy reliability problems when they age (grease/lubricant starts to age) etc.    Who hasn't had a stereo where the volume control has started getting flaky after a few years?</p><p>I'm sure that the manufacturers have thought of simple things like this, which makes me think that there's either people are making this stuff up, or there's something screwy with the car's control software or electronics.  If it's a software error then, as another poster has already pointed out, no amount of pontificating is going to solve the problem without giving us access to the source code.</p><p>Of course, it could be something more sinister.  Perhaps the CAN bus command to signal 100\% throttle to the ECU happens to be easy to trigger with a particular type of noise?  Again, nobody is going to be able to figure that sort of stuff out without some serious insider knowledge..  </p><p>I hope they do figure this out though as my car happens to be a reasonably recent model and is drive-by-wire.  Although I'd like to think I'd have the presence of mind to kill the engine or throw it in neutral if there were any problems, until you're put in that situation it's really hard to know how you'd react.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If these cars are drive-by-wire then I 'd be suspecting that the potentiometers and/or positional encoders that are used to read the throttle position are failing ( or starting to fail ) as potentiometers and encoders do.Can anybody in the know verify what sort of technology is used to actually read the throttle position in cars these-days ( not for the TPS sensor so much - but for the drive-by-wire setup ) ?
I 'm hoping it 's not potentiometers because the resistive layer can wear through on those with age causing unreliable behaviour .
Even if they 're using rotary or optical encoders , they can have dodgy reliability problems when they age ( grease/lubricant starts to age ) etc .
Who has n't had a stereo where the volume control has started getting flaky after a few years ? I 'm sure that the manufacturers have thought of simple things like this , which makes me think that there 's either people are making this stuff up , or there 's something screwy with the car 's control software or electronics .
If it 's a software error then , as another poster has already pointed out , no amount of pontificating is going to solve the problem without giving us access to the source code.Of course , it could be something more sinister .
Perhaps the CAN bus command to signal 100 \ % throttle to the ECU happens to be easy to trigger with a particular type of noise ?
Again , nobody is going to be able to figure that sort of stuff out without some serious insider knowledge.. I hope they do figure this out though as my car happens to be a reasonably recent model and is drive-by-wire .
Although I 'd like to think I 'd have the presence of mind to kill the engine or throw it in neutral if there were any problems , until you 're put in that situation it 's really hard to know how you 'd react .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
If these cars are drive-by-wire then I'd be suspecting that the potentiometers and/or positional encoders that are used to read the throttle position are failing (or starting to fail) as potentiometers and encoders do.Can anybody in the know verify what sort of technology is used to actually read the throttle position in cars these-days (not for the TPS sensor so much - but for the drive-by-wire setup)?
I'm hoping it's not potentiometers because the resistive layer can wear through on those with age causing unreliable behaviour.
Even if they're using rotary or optical encoders, they can have dodgy reliability problems when they age (grease/lubricant starts to age) etc.
Who hasn't had a stereo where the volume control has started getting flaky after a few years?I'm sure that the manufacturers have thought of simple things like this, which makes me think that there's either people are making this stuff up, or there's something screwy with the car's control software or electronics.
If it's a software error then, as another poster has already pointed out, no amount of pontificating is going to solve the problem without giving us access to the source code.Of course, it could be something more sinister.
Perhaps the CAN bus command to signal 100\% throttle to the ECU happens to be easy to trigger with a particular type of noise?
Again, nobody is going to be able to figure that sort of stuff out without some serious insider knowledge..  I hope they do figure this out though as my car happens to be a reasonably recent model and is drive-by-wire.
Although I'd like to think I'd have the presence of mind to kill the engine or throw it in neutral if there were any problems, until you're put in that situation it's really hard to know how you'd react.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343468</id>
	<title>Solution</title>
	<author>lekernel</author>
	<datestamp>1267621080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>on-board computer running Windows Embedded.</htmltext>
<tokenext>on-board computer running Windows Embedded .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>on-board computer running Windows Embedded.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343260</id>
	<title>Don't consumer reports have a car?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267619340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't consumer reports have a car? "including requiring brakes to be strong enough to stop the car even when the accelerator is floored." but they do. This seems to be the stupidity of the people who, when complaining they couldn't stop, say they've put both feet on the brake, then call the handbrake the "emergency brake" (as if that's supposed to be The Final Word On Brakes), then start sobbing about how, whilst going over 100mph with both feet on the brakes CALL UP THEIR HUSBAND ON THE PHONE!!!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't consumer reports have a car ?
" including requiring brakes to be strong enough to stop the car even when the accelerator is floored .
" but they do .
This seems to be the stupidity of the people who , when complaining they could n't stop , say they 've put both feet on the brake , then call the handbrake the " emergency brake " ( as if that 's supposed to be The Final Word On Brakes ) , then start sobbing about how , whilst going over 100mph with both feet on the brakes CALL UP THEIR HUSBAND ON THE PHONE ! !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't consumer reports have a car?
"including requiring brakes to be strong enough to stop the car even when the accelerator is floored.
" but they do.
This seems to be the stupidity of the people who, when complaining they couldn't stop, say they've put both feet on the brake, then call the handbrake the "emergency brake" (as if that's supposed to be The Final Word On Brakes), then start sobbing about how, whilst going over 100mph with both feet on the brakes CALL UP THEIR HUSBAND ON THE PHONE!!
!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345024</id>
	<title>Re:"The" cause</title>
	<author>Rolgar</author>
	<datestamp>1267629780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><a href="http://madharasan.wordpress.com/2009/10/01/technically-correct-but-completely-useless-answer/" title="wordpress.com">No award for you!</a> [wordpress.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No award for you !
[ wordpress.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No award for you!
[wordpress.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341616</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341592</id>
	<title>Re:Me thinks</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267648200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If this is indeed the case, putting bigger brakes on the cars will just increase the cost of ownership for those of us who \_can\_ drive.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If this is indeed the case , putting bigger brakes on the cars will just increase the cost of ownership for those of us who \ _can \ _ drive .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If this is indeed the case, putting bigger brakes on the cars will just increase the cost of ownership for those of us who \_can\_ drive.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341558</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341842</id>
	<title>And where is the source?</title>
	<author>Mathinker</author>
	<datestamp>1267649940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; What I struggle to understand is why this isn't a legal requirement on all new drive-by-wire cars?</p><p>You would think that there would also be a requirement that the source code be released for review to anyone who cares.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; What I struggle to understand is why this is n't a legal requirement on all new drive-by-wire cars ? You would think that there would also be a requirement that the source code be released for review to anyone who cares .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; What I struggle to understand is why this isn't a legal requirement on all new drive-by-wire cars?You would think that there would also be a requirement that the source code be released for review to anyone who cares.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31350310</id>
	<title>Re:I'll stick to my old technology...</title>
	<author>zhenya00</author>
	<datestamp>1267610280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Funny that it is usually people who have actually experienced a stuck throttle cable who advocate sticking with that flawed method.  Fact of the matter is that solid state is much more reliable than a physical cable.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Funny that it is usually people who have actually experienced a stuck throttle cable who advocate sticking with that flawed method .
Fact of the matter is that solid state is much more reliable than a physical cable .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Funny that it is usually people who have actually experienced a stuck throttle cable who advocate sticking with that flawed method.
Fact of the matter is that solid state is much more reliable than a physical cable.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31346970</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31350290</id>
	<title>Re:Kill Switch?</title>
	<author>marcosdumay</author>
	<datestamp>1267610220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's interesting that every time I ever lost control of a car, I didn't expect it to go on the direction the steering weel pointed. I'd be dangerously surprized if that happened on a car with ESC.</p><p>By the way, there isn't snow aroud here, it may be different enough from oil covered asphalt, gravel and sand so that things change.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's interesting that every time I ever lost control of a car , I did n't expect it to go on the direction the steering weel pointed .
I 'd be dangerously surprized if that happened on a car with ESC.By the way , there is n't snow aroud here , it may be different enough from oil covered asphalt , gravel and sand so that things change .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's interesting that every time I ever lost control of a car, I didn't expect it to go on the direction the steering weel pointed.
I'd be dangerously surprized if that happened on a car with ESC.By the way, there isn't snow aroud here, it may be different enough from oil covered asphalt, gravel and sand so that things change.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342400</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31394816</id>
	<title>Re:Kill Switch?</title>
	<author>Geminii</author>
	<datestamp>1267963860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Shouldn't be too hard to make the kill switch flash bright red and beep (separate circuits, please) when it's engaged and the car's switched on. Put it right in the driver's line of sight - on the dash above the steering wheel would be an idea.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Should n't be too hard to make the kill switch flash bright red and beep ( separate circuits , please ) when it 's engaged and the car 's switched on .
Put it right in the driver 's line of sight - on the dash above the steering wheel would be an idea .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Shouldn't be too hard to make the kill switch flash bright red and beep (separate circuits, please) when it's engaged and the car's switched on.
Put it right in the driver's line of sight - on the dash above the steering wheel would be an idea.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342554</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341622</id>
	<title>Turn the key off or put the car in neutral........</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267648380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Turn the key off or put the car in neutral...........I guess common sense ain't so common.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Turn the key off or put the car in neutral...........I guess common sense ai n't so common .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Turn the key off or put the car in neutral...........I guess common sense ain't so common.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343478</id>
	<title>firmware coding error?</title>
	<author>Skapare</author>
	<datestamp>1267621140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The following code (indenting lost):</p><blockquote><div><p> <tt>#include &lt;stdio.h&gt;<br>int main() {<br>  unsigned int divisor;<br>  signed int dividend, quotient;<br>  divisor = 3;<br>  for ( dividend = 8; dividend &gt;= -8; -- dividend ) {<br>    quotient = dividend / divisor;<br>    printf( "\%3d / \%u = \%d\n", dividend, divisor, quotient );<br>  }<br>  return 0;<br>}</tt></p></div> </blockquote><p>when compiled with a standards compliant compiler, will produce the (unexpected to many programmers) output:</p><blockquote><div><p> <tt> 8 / 3 = 2<br> 7 / 3 = 2<br> 6 / 3 = 2<br> 5 / 3 = 1<br> 4 / 3 = 1<br> 3 / 3 = 1<br> 2 / 3 = 0<br> 1 / 3 = 0<br> 0 / 3 = 0<br> -1 / 3 = 1431655765<br> -2 / 3 = 1431655764<br> -3 / 3 = 1431655764<br> -4 / 3 = 1431655764<br> -5 / 3 = 1431655763<br> -6 / 3 = 1431655763<br> -7 / 3 = 1431655763<br> -8 / 3 = 1431655762</tt></p></div> </blockquote><p>See 6.3.1.8 in the C99 standard.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The following code ( indenting lost ) : # include int main ( ) { unsigned int divisor ; signed int dividend , quotient ; divisor = 3 ; for ( dividend = 8 ; dividend &gt; = -8 ; -- dividend ) { quotient = dividend / divisor ; printf ( " \ % 3d / \ % u = \ % d \ n " , dividend , divisor , quotient ) ; } return 0 ; } when compiled with a standards compliant compiler , will produce the ( unexpected to many programmers ) output : 8 / 3 = 2 7 / 3 = 2 6 / 3 = 2 5 / 3 = 1 4 / 3 = 1 3 / 3 = 1 2 / 3 = 0 1 / 3 = 0 0 / 3 = 0 -1 / 3 = 1431655765 -2 / 3 = 1431655764 -3 / 3 = 1431655764 -4 / 3 = 1431655764 -5 / 3 = 1431655763 -6 / 3 = 1431655763 -7 / 3 = 1431655763 -8 / 3 = 1431655762 See 6.3.1.8 in the C99 standard .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The following code (indenting lost): #include int main() {  unsigned int divisor;  signed int dividend, quotient;  divisor = 3;  for ( dividend = 8; dividend &gt;= -8; -- dividend ) {    quotient = dividend / divisor;    printf( "\%3d / \%u = \%d\n", dividend, divisor, quotient );  }  return 0;} when compiled with a standards compliant compiler, will produce the (unexpected to many programmers) output:  8 / 3 = 2 7 / 3 = 2 6 / 3 = 2 5 / 3 = 1 4 / 3 = 1 3 / 3 = 1 2 / 3 = 0 1 / 3 = 0 0 / 3 = 0 -1 / 3 = 1431655765 -2 / 3 = 1431655764 -3 / 3 = 1431655764 -4 / 3 = 1431655764 -5 / 3 = 1431655763 -6 / 3 = 1431655763 -7 / 3 = 1431655763 -8 / 3 = 1431655762 See 6.3.1.8 in the C99 standard.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344496</id>
	<title>Re:AWESOME CONTEST!!!</title>
	<author>cybaz</author>
	<datestamp>1267627200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Try find a job at Toyota, i'm sure the million dollars will easily compensate you for the fact that you will probably lose your job by releasing the information.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Try find a job at Toyota , i 'm sure the million dollars will easily compensate you for the fact that you will probably lose your job by releasing the information .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Try find a job at Toyota, i'm sure the million dollars will easily compensate you for the fact that you will probably lose your job by releasing the information.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341820</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345496</id>
	<title>Safety VS Security</title>
	<author>DarthVain</author>
	<datestamp>1267631880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There is a REAL easy solution here.</p><p>Every care I have ever driven has a steering real that automatically "locks" if the key turns the engine off. This is presumably a security "feature". I am not sure how many potential car thefts this has prevented.</p><p>Anyway, if someone could simply turn the key, and turn the engine off, and maintain steering (abit ArmStrong steering and not power), the problem is solved. So long as the car is moving, no power steering shouldn't matter anyway. As someone grew up using standard steering, it was only a pain in the ass when you were stopped, for parking or something.</p><p>Of course this might shut down the breaks as well. Perhaps these guys need to make Redundant/Secondary/Axillary systems not dependent on power.</p><p>Either that or attach an Anchor and chain to the frame, and just have a button to "Drop Anchor"...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is a REAL easy solution here.Every care I have ever driven has a steering real that automatically " locks " if the key turns the engine off .
This is presumably a security " feature " .
I am not sure how many potential car thefts this has prevented.Anyway , if someone could simply turn the key , and turn the engine off , and maintain steering ( abit ArmStrong steering and not power ) , the problem is solved .
So long as the car is moving , no power steering should n't matter anyway .
As someone grew up using standard steering , it was only a pain in the ass when you were stopped , for parking or something.Of course this might shut down the breaks as well .
Perhaps these guys need to make Redundant/Secondary/Axillary systems not dependent on power.Either that or attach an Anchor and chain to the frame , and just have a button to " Drop Anchor " .. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is a REAL easy solution here.Every care I have ever driven has a steering real that automatically "locks" if the key turns the engine off.
This is presumably a security "feature".
I am not sure how many potential car thefts this has prevented.Anyway, if someone could simply turn the key, and turn the engine off, and maintain steering (abit ArmStrong steering and not power), the problem is solved.
So long as the car is moving, no power steering shouldn't matter anyway.
As someone grew up using standard steering, it was only a pain in the ass when you were stopped, for parking or something.Of course this might shut down the breaks as well.
Perhaps these guys need to make Redundant/Secondary/Axillary systems not dependent on power.Either that or attach an Anchor and chain to the frame, and just have a button to "Drop Anchor"...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31351030</id>
	<title>Re: What About Stops On Hills?</title>
	<author>gggggggg</author>
	<datestamp>1267613760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>
4 solutions:<br>
<br>
1-Use a manual gearbox (clutch)<br>
2-Use the handbrake (not as good, as most handbrakes are electrically operated now so just on-off)<br>
3-Many cars (Audi for example) come with Hold Assist<br>
4-Many cars (Audi for example) don't completely kill the accelerator when both pedals are pressed at the same time, but rather limit it to 1800 revs or thereabouts after a short lag period.</htmltext>
<tokenext>4 solutions : 1-Use a manual gearbox ( clutch ) 2-Use the handbrake ( not as good , as most handbrakes are electrically operated now so just on-off ) 3-Many cars ( Audi for example ) come with Hold Assist 4-Many cars ( Audi for example ) do n't completely kill the accelerator when both pedals are pressed at the same time , but rather limit it to 1800 revs or thereabouts after a short lag period .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
4 solutions:

1-Use a manual gearbox (clutch)
2-Use the handbrake (not as good, as most handbrakes are electrically operated now so just on-off)
3-Many cars (Audi for example) come with Hold Assist
4-Many cars (Audi for example) don't completely kill the accelerator when both pedals are pressed at the same time, but rather limit it to 1800 revs or thereabouts after a short lag period.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345532</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344186</id>
	<title>Re:Kill Switch?</title>
	<author>Fahrvergnuugen</author>
	<datestamp>1267625640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>What does adding all that complexity get you...</p></div></blockquote><p>Higher efficiency and lower emissions</p><p>A modern VW 2.0T makes 2x as much power with 1/2 the emissions while achieving the same MPG as a 2.0 NA motor from a 90's</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>What does adding all that complexity get you...Higher efficiency and lower emissionsA modern VW 2.0T makes 2x as much power with 1/2 the emissions while achieving the same MPG as a 2.0 NA motor from a 90 's</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What does adding all that complexity get you...Higher efficiency and lower emissionsA modern VW 2.0T makes 2x as much power with 1/2 the emissions while achieving the same MPG as a 2.0 NA motor from a 90's
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342026</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31352648</id>
	<title>Re:Hmmm....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267621860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Let me guess... a Toyota?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Let me guess... a Toyota ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Let me guess... a Toyota?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342280</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341862</id>
	<title>Re:Idiocy.</title>
	<author>Bartab</author>
	<datestamp>1267606860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Being able to shift to neutral is a required safety feature. I can't imagine where "he couldn't do it!!!1111oneoneone" got started.</p><p>The Lexus ES-350, the vehicle CHP Officer Mark Saylor died in, does not have electronic shifters. Even if it did, electronic shifters allow gear shifting under speed. In fact, they do so without the natural increase in force necessary for non-electronic shifters to shift gears while under speed.</p><p>This is something you can actually test, it won't hurt the vehicle if you don't let it revv for very long. Accerlate on the freeway, shift to neutral without ceasing acceleration. Most vehicles will require more than normal force to change gears but will do so without complaint or problem. The exceptions are the vehicles that will act entirely as they do all the time, because they're by-wire themselves. Do, however, stop accelerating before shifting back.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Being able to shift to neutral is a required safety feature .
I ca n't imagine where " he could n't do it ! !
! 1111oneoneone " got started.The Lexus ES-350 , the vehicle CHP Officer Mark Saylor died in , does not have electronic shifters .
Even if it did , electronic shifters allow gear shifting under speed .
In fact , they do so without the natural increase in force necessary for non-electronic shifters to shift gears while under speed.This is something you can actually test , it wo n't hurt the vehicle if you do n't let it revv for very long .
Accerlate on the freeway , shift to neutral without ceasing acceleration .
Most vehicles will require more than normal force to change gears but will do so without complaint or problem .
The exceptions are the vehicles that will act entirely as they do all the time , because they 're by-wire themselves .
Do , however , stop accelerating before shifting back .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Being able to shift to neutral is a required safety feature.
I can't imagine where "he couldn't do it!!
!1111oneoneone" got started.The Lexus ES-350, the vehicle CHP Officer Mark Saylor died in, does not have electronic shifters.
Even if it did, electronic shifters allow gear shifting under speed.
In fact, they do so without the natural increase in force necessary for non-electronic shifters to shift gears while under speed.This is something you can actually test, it won't hurt the vehicle if you don't let it revv for very long.
Accerlate on the freeway, shift to neutral without ceasing acceleration.
Most vehicles will require more than normal force to change gears but will do so without complaint or problem.
The exceptions are the vehicles that will act entirely as they do all the time, because they're by-wire themselves.
Do, however, stop accelerating before shifting back.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341764</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345904</id>
	<title>Re:Misleading summary</title>
	<author>noidentity</author>
	<datestamp>1267633380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Almost all cars generate braking forces far in excess of whatever the engine is capable of putting out. Adequate brake torque isn't the problem here. If the brakes have to resist the the torque input, then their effectiveness will obviously be diminished.</p></div>

</blockquote><p>But the brakes would have to overcome the engine power AND your car's momentum (now greater than usual because the engine is at full throttle as well), if you want to come to a stop in a reasonable distance.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Almost all cars generate braking forces far in excess of whatever the engine is capable of putting out .
Adequate brake torque is n't the problem here .
If the brakes have to resist the the torque input , then their effectiveness will obviously be diminished .
But the brakes would have to overcome the engine power AND your car 's momentum ( now greater than usual because the engine is at full throttle as well ) , if you want to come to a stop in a reasonable distance .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Almost all cars generate braking forces far in excess of whatever the engine is capable of putting out.
Adequate brake torque isn't the problem here.
If the brakes have to resist the the torque input, then their effectiveness will obviously be diminished.
But the brakes would have to overcome the engine power AND your car's momentum (now greater than usual because the engine is at full throttle as well), if you want to come to a stop in a reasonable distance.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341822</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344776</id>
	<title>Re:Misleading summary</title>
	<author>rrossman2</author>
	<datestamp>1267628640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It wouldn't be hard for them to read the Throttle Position Sensor.. even a drive-by-wire car would have one of those, and if they see the throttle is wide open + you're braking to kill the motor, or have a stepped down rev limiter activate.

<br> <br>I do know, from rental car use, some cars won't allow you to rev the motor and shift into a gear. IIRC if it was a Corolla or Cavalier, or both, that did it, but if you sat in neutral and revved the motor, and tried shifting into D the ECU would actually cut power until the RPMs came down to a certain level and THEN the tranny would actually shift into gear</htmltext>
<tokenext>It would n't be hard for them to read the Throttle Position Sensor.. even a drive-by-wire car would have one of those , and if they see the throttle is wide open + you 're braking to kill the motor , or have a stepped down rev limiter activate .
I do know , from rental car use , some cars wo n't allow you to rev the motor and shift into a gear .
IIRC if it was a Corolla or Cavalier , or both , that did it , but if you sat in neutral and revved the motor , and tried shifting into D the ECU would actually cut power until the RPMs came down to a certain level and THEN the tranny would actually shift into gear</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It wouldn't be hard for them to read the Throttle Position Sensor.. even a drive-by-wire car would have one of those, and if they see the throttle is wide open + you're braking to kill the motor, or have a stepped down rev limiter activate.
I do know, from rental car use, some cars won't allow you to rev the motor and shift into a gear.
IIRC if it was a Corolla or Cavalier, or both, that did it, but if you sat in neutral and revved the motor, and tried shifting into D the ECU would actually cut power until the RPMs came down to a certain level and THEN the tranny would actually shift into gear</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341822</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341632</id>
	<title>Unnecessarily</title>
	<author>hellop2</author>
	<datestamp>1267648440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>complicated cars.</htmltext>
<tokenext>complicated cars .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>complicated cars.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345232</id>
	<title>Unexplained Acceleration</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267630680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Clearly, it is the Pioneer Effect.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Clearly , it is the Pioneer Effect .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Clearly, it is the Pioneer Effect.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342246</id>
	<title>Re:Hmmm....</title>
	<author>captainpanic</author>
	<datestamp>1267610400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Drive by wire means that your average garage cannot repair even simple failures. You have to go to the certified dealers. That's simply extra cash for the car manufacturers.</p><p>And that little extra cash is important when you're working with a very small margin.</p><p>It doesn't matter who builds the best car. It matters who makes the most money.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Drive by wire means that your average garage can not repair even simple failures .
You have to go to the certified dealers .
That 's simply extra cash for the car manufacturers.And that little extra cash is important when you 're working with a very small margin.It does n't matter who builds the best car .
It matters who makes the most money .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Drive by wire means that your average garage cannot repair even simple failures.
You have to go to the certified dealers.
That's simply extra cash for the car manufacturers.And that little extra cash is important when you're working with a very small margin.It doesn't matter who builds the best car.
It matters who makes the most money.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341660</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343302</id>
	<title>Wisdom</title>
	<author>ledow</author>
	<datestamp>1267619820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My dad used to repair cars / trucks for a living for about 30 years.  He would never have owned one of these cars because he can foresee the consequences when something goes wrong.</p><p>He hates anything electronic on a car's engine / controls.  There are good reasons for this, as some drivers have recently found out.  Worse, though, he hates cars that are designed badly (never ask him to repair a Peugeot) or driven by idiots.  Don't design cars that cannot be stopped / disabled / turned off / controlled in an emergency.  By definition, in any emergency, that means even with the engine switched off (which should be easy to do from the driver's seat - easy from the passenger's seat being optional) the car should not be out of control (sluggish, not ideal, maybe but not out of control).  If you change the normal engine-start interface, damn well provide an easy, obvious analog that can be used by the driver to cut power to the engine but not engage dangerous systems (e.g. steering-lock), and can't be overridden by the car (e.g. a STOP button next to the start button?  Sod that "hold the start for X seconds" bullshit, it's completely unintuitive like "Start... Shutdown" on Windows and costs the driver vital seconds).</p><p>The *driver* of a car is the person *driving* the car, otherwise we'd call them the drivee.  If you're an engine and the driver turns you off, then damn well switch off.  If the driver brakes, then brake (and if you can do the sub-millisecond things that help him brake faster, do that, for as long as the driver brakes and not a second more, otherwise don't try to be clever).  If the driver puts you into neutral, go into neutral.  I don't like the idea of any car that can override a conscious decision on my part... the exceptions to this are emergency features (like airbags, seatbelts, ABS, etc. because I usually don't have a chance to *make* a conscious decision in those instances) but even in its absolute failsafe mode nothing should go wrong (ABS fails?  Okay, brakes still work.  Airbag fails?  Okay, it doesn't explode in your face but just flashes warnings at the driver.  Seatbelt fails?  All you can do is warn the driver).</p><p>More important than design -  as a driver, don't buy cars with these ridiculous "features" (the most I've had is a car that has ABS and power-steering, but if I turn off the engine - with a KEY! - the whole ECU turns off and everything is still under my control).  Gears are mechanical linkages for a reason.  Steering is a mechanical linkage for a reason (power **ASSISTED** steering).  Brakes are a mechanical linkage (usually with redundant systems such as dual-braking-systems, handbrakes, etc.) for a reason.  Engine ignitions are electrical but key-based ones directly control (via a physical connection) the vital power source that enables the engine to continue running and their failsafe mode unless you tamper with the cabling is engine-cut-out.  What does the "drive-by-wire" give you that you didn't have before?  Is it really so difficult to turn a key in a slot compared to carrying a fragile, expensive electronic gadget and having to press a button?  Does it make it easier to drive?  Does it make it safer to drive?</p><p>Even *if* the driver is a prat and is doing something incredibly stupid (over-revving), the car should not be overriding his decision without really, really good reasons (e.g. car will explode) and even then it should do the safest course of action (limit revs to their upper safety limit, warn driver, hell - even switch off the damn engine safely and let it coast to a halt is preferable to just exploding).  I classify buying a car that doesn't recognise its place as a servant, not the master, as driver error anyway... if you *don't* know how, can't work out how, or actually find it impossible to safely control the car you drive in an emergency (e.g. switch off engine but leave key in, how to change into neutral in an emergency, how to slow yourself if the brakes completely fail, whether it has ABS or you need to pump brakes, etc.) - even if you've *never</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My dad used to repair cars / trucks for a living for about 30 years .
He would never have owned one of these cars because he can foresee the consequences when something goes wrong.He hates anything electronic on a car 's engine / controls .
There are good reasons for this , as some drivers have recently found out .
Worse , though , he hates cars that are designed badly ( never ask him to repair a Peugeot ) or driven by idiots .
Do n't design cars that can not be stopped / disabled / turned off / controlled in an emergency .
By definition , in any emergency , that means even with the engine switched off ( which should be easy to do from the driver 's seat - easy from the passenger 's seat being optional ) the car should not be out of control ( sluggish , not ideal , maybe but not out of control ) .
If you change the normal engine-start interface , damn well provide an easy , obvious analog that can be used by the driver to cut power to the engine but not engage dangerous systems ( e.g .
steering-lock ) , and ca n't be overridden by the car ( e.g .
a STOP button next to the start button ?
Sod that " hold the start for X seconds " bullshit , it 's completely unintuitive like " Start... Shutdown " on Windows and costs the driver vital seconds ) .The * driver * of a car is the person * driving * the car , otherwise we 'd call them the drivee .
If you 're an engine and the driver turns you off , then damn well switch off .
If the driver brakes , then brake ( and if you can do the sub-millisecond things that help him brake faster , do that , for as long as the driver brakes and not a second more , otherwise do n't try to be clever ) .
If the driver puts you into neutral , go into neutral .
I do n't like the idea of any car that can override a conscious decision on my part... the exceptions to this are emergency features ( like airbags , seatbelts , ABS , etc .
because I usually do n't have a chance to * make * a conscious decision in those instances ) but even in its absolute failsafe mode nothing should go wrong ( ABS fails ?
Okay , brakes still work .
Airbag fails ?
Okay , it does n't explode in your face but just flashes warnings at the driver .
Seatbelt fails ?
All you can do is warn the driver ) .More important than design - as a driver , do n't buy cars with these ridiculous " features " ( the most I 've had is a car that has ABS and power-steering , but if I turn off the engine - with a KEY !
- the whole ECU turns off and everything is still under my control ) .
Gears are mechanical linkages for a reason .
Steering is a mechanical linkage for a reason ( power * * ASSISTED * * steering ) .
Brakes are a mechanical linkage ( usually with redundant systems such as dual-braking-systems , handbrakes , etc .
) for a reason .
Engine ignitions are electrical but key-based ones directly control ( via a physical connection ) the vital power source that enables the engine to continue running and their failsafe mode unless you tamper with the cabling is engine-cut-out .
What does the " drive-by-wire " give you that you did n't have before ?
Is it really so difficult to turn a key in a slot compared to carrying a fragile , expensive electronic gadget and having to press a button ?
Does it make it easier to drive ?
Does it make it safer to drive ? Even * if * the driver is a prat and is doing something incredibly stupid ( over-revving ) , the car should not be overriding his decision without really , really good reasons ( e.g .
car will explode ) and even then it should do the safest course of action ( limit revs to their upper safety limit , warn driver , hell - even switch off the damn engine safely and let it coast to a halt is preferable to just exploding ) .
I classify buying a car that does n't recognise its place as a servant , not the master , as driver error anyway... if you * do n't * know how , ca n't work out how , or actually find it impossible to safely control the car you drive in an emergency ( e.g .
switch off engine but leave key in , how to change into neutral in an emergency , how to slow yourself if the brakes completely fail , whether it has ABS or you need to pump brakes , etc .
) - even if you 've * never</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My dad used to repair cars / trucks for a living for about 30 years.
He would never have owned one of these cars because he can foresee the consequences when something goes wrong.He hates anything electronic on a car's engine / controls.
There are good reasons for this, as some drivers have recently found out.
Worse, though, he hates cars that are designed badly (never ask him to repair a Peugeot) or driven by idiots.
Don't design cars that cannot be stopped / disabled / turned off / controlled in an emergency.
By definition, in any emergency, that means even with the engine switched off (which should be easy to do from the driver's seat - easy from the passenger's seat being optional) the car should not be out of control (sluggish, not ideal, maybe but not out of control).
If you change the normal engine-start interface, damn well provide an easy, obvious analog that can be used by the driver to cut power to the engine but not engage dangerous systems (e.g.
steering-lock), and can't be overridden by the car (e.g.
a STOP button next to the start button?
Sod that "hold the start for X seconds" bullshit, it's completely unintuitive like "Start... Shutdown" on Windows and costs the driver vital seconds).The *driver* of a car is the person *driving* the car, otherwise we'd call them the drivee.
If you're an engine and the driver turns you off, then damn well switch off.
If the driver brakes, then brake (and if you can do the sub-millisecond things that help him brake faster, do that, for as long as the driver brakes and not a second more, otherwise don't try to be clever).
If the driver puts you into neutral, go into neutral.
I don't like the idea of any car that can override a conscious decision on my part... the exceptions to this are emergency features (like airbags, seatbelts, ABS, etc.
because I usually don't have a chance to *make* a conscious decision in those instances) but even in its absolute failsafe mode nothing should go wrong (ABS fails?
Okay, brakes still work.
Airbag fails?
Okay, it doesn't explode in your face but just flashes warnings at the driver.
Seatbelt fails?
All you can do is warn the driver).More important than design -  as a driver, don't buy cars with these ridiculous "features" (the most I've had is a car that has ABS and power-steering, but if I turn off the engine - with a KEY!
- the whole ECU turns off and everything is still under my control).
Gears are mechanical linkages for a reason.
Steering is a mechanical linkage for a reason (power **ASSISTED** steering).
Brakes are a mechanical linkage (usually with redundant systems such as dual-braking-systems, handbrakes, etc.
) for a reason.
Engine ignitions are electrical but key-based ones directly control (via a physical connection) the vital power source that enables the engine to continue running and their failsafe mode unless you tamper with the cabling is engine-cut-out.
What does the "drive-by-wire" give you that you didn't have before?
Is it really so difficult to turn a key in a slot compared to carrying a fragile, expensive electronic gadget and having to press a button?
Does it make it easier to drive?
Does it make it safer to drive?Even *if* the driver is a prat and is doing something incredibly stupid (over-revving), the car should not be overriding his decision without really, really good reasons (e.g.
car will explode) and even then it should do the safest course of action (limit revs to their upper safety limit, warn driver, hell - even switch off the damn engine safely and let it coast to a halt is preferable to just exploding).
I classify buying a car that doesn't recognise its place as a servant, not the master, as driver error anyway... if you *don't* know how, can't work out how, or actually find it impossible to safely control the car you drive in an emergency (e.g.
switch off engine but leave key in, how to change into neutral in an emergency, how to slow yourself if the brakes completely fail, whether it has ABS or you need to pump brakes, etc.
) - even if you've *never</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344320</id>
	<title>Re:You can NOT "just put it in neutral"...</title>
	<author>Idbar</author>
	<datestamp>1267626300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've done it in my automatic car. I use it sometimes for "engine breaking"</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've done it in my automatic car .
I use it sometimes for " engine breaking "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've done it in my automatic car.
I use it sometimes for "engine breaking"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341666</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342312</id>
	<title>Re:Solution</title>
	<author>nohumor</author>
	<datestamp>1267610940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>cutting the power will also kill the "power" brakes and "power" steering. which will mean we will need to push the brakes really hard and turn the steering wheel really hard, something we are no longer used to doing. even though the acceleration will stop, maneuvering the car will be really tough</htmltext>
<tokenext>cutting the power will also kill the " power " brakes and " power " steering .
which will mean we will need to push the brakes really hard and turn the steering wheel really hard , something we are no longer used to doing .
even though the acceleration will stop , maneuvering the car will be really tough</tokentext>
<sentencetext>cutting the power will also kill the "power" brakes and "power" steering.
which will mean we will need to push the brakes really hard and turn the steering wheel really hard, something we are no longer used to doing.
even though the acceleration will stop, maneuvering the car will be really tough</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344718</id>
	<title>Re:Turn the key off or put the car in neutral.....</title>
	<author>nedlohs</author>
	<datestamp>1267628340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You need to exercise a little.</p><p>I've had the engine turn off while driving and yes non-assisted steering requires a bunch more effort - though only at low speeds, you don't turn sharply at highway speeds.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You need to exercise a little.I 've had the engine turn off while driving and yes non-assisted steering requires a bunch more effort - though only at low speeds , you do n't turn sharply at highway speeds .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You need to exercise a little.I've had the engine turn off while driving and yes non-assisted steering requires a bunch more effort - though only at low speeds, you don't turn sharply at highway speeds.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341912</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31349370</id>
	<title>Dear Automotive Executive</title>
	<author>fred fleenblat</author>
	<datestamp>1267649280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In addition to the human factors issues and plain old engineering common sense, here's some other things that would help mitigate the unintended acceleration problem.  Maybe we don't have to do all of them, but one or two of the less expensive options might be practical and still save some lives.</p><p>1. watchdog circuit.  there should be a separately engineered CPU and sensor system that just sits around making sure that the ECU is up and running, that's it responding to brake and throttle inputs sensibly, that the airflow through the intake (separately reported from the MAF) is in the right ballpark, engine speed is sensible given throttle opening, gear, and vehicle speed, and that the throttle servo is acting mostly linear and in a timely fashion to inputs, and that the user inputs are sensible given the velocity of the car.  Any problems found should return the throttle to idle.  if the throttle does not return to idle (based on MAF and engine speed) then cut off ignition.  If that doesn't do it, cut off fuel.  These cut-offs should be separate circuits and relays from normal operation.  As I've described it, this is expensive, but a more modest system that monitors only throttle, brake, engine speed and only cuts off spark would still be helpful.</p><p>2. Full or nearly full throttle for more than 15 seconds is probably bad input.  Sporty cars could have a competition mode button and low-power cars maybe 20 or 30 seconds is more sensible.  Similar to this, nearly full throttle with no dither is a bad sign, as is nearly full throttle plus other input like shifting between auto and manual mode or attempts to downshift into redline or repeated quick up or downshift commands. This would probably be part of the normal ECU rather than a separate circuit.  Additionally, the gas pedal should not report 0-100\%, but more like 0-95\% and then a little extra push to get it to 95-100\%.  The purpose being that a floor mat or other soft object will probably (though not for sure) only wedge the pedal with limited force, only enough to get to the detent.  If the pedal *stays* at the detent (or other fixed position) for too long and the driver does not push past it (an act that would take intent) or back off then there is a very good chance of interference.</p><p>3. Linearity.  Many manufacturers seem to be using throttle-by-wire to make it so that the throttle opens up faster in response to light pedal pressure and slower towards the end of the pedal travel.  This gives a test drive impression of more power and torque than is actually there.  However accidental input that just lightly presses the pedal now brings on almost the full force of the engine, giving the driver less time to react to the situation.  Somewhat related, some recent automatic transmissions seem to have a high stall but a quick lockup.  Again, this presents the illusion of more power earlier, but can surprise a driver.  (I have personaly observed both of these problems in my own 2009 vehicle.  It is just way too eager to get going).</p><p>4. Automatics in manual mode have hard stops for up and down shifts.  Instead, they should have substantial detents that are used for normal up-down shifting (so that in normal usage they act the same as they do now) but when pressed beyond the detent the transmission shifts to neutral and engine power is cut.  This is a mechanically simple thing and could inexpensively be a separate control circuit.</p><p>5. Why on earth do cars allow full throttle in reverse, neutral or park?  I can see someone using it when stuck in snow or shallow sand, but this should not be normal operation and in non-forward gears, power should be limited unless specifically requested or as part of turning off traction control or only enabled when traction control detects snow or sand situations itself.  Here's the subtle part.  I don't just mean that the car should limit RPM while in reverse, neutral or park.  That would be short sighted.  I mean that plus the car should detect that something is wrong and not just resume full throttle the instant they</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In addition to the human factors issues and plain old engineering common sense , here 's some other things that would help mitigate the unintended acceleration problem .
Maybe we do n't have to do all of them , but one or two of the less expensive options might be practical and still save some lives.1 .
watchdog circuit .
there should be a separately engineered CPU and sensor system that just sits around making sure that the ECU is up and running , that 's it responding to brake and throttle inputs sensibly , that the airflow through the intake ( separately reported from the MAF ) is in the right ballpark , engine speed is sensible given throttle opening , gear , and vehicle speed , and that the throttle servo is acting mostly linear and in a timely fashion to inputs , and that the user inputs are sensible given the velocity of the car .
Any problems found should return the throttle to idle .
if the throttle does not return to idle ( based on MAF and engine speed ) then cut off ignition .
If that does n't do it , cut off fuel .
These cut-offs should be separate circuits and relays from normal operation .
As I 've described it , this is expensive , but a more modest system that monitors only throttle , brake , engine speed and only cuts off spark would still be helpful.2 .
Full or nearly full throttle for more than 15 seconds is probably bad input .
Sporty cars could have a competition mode button and low-power cars maybe 20 or 30 seconds is more sensible .
Similar to this , nearly full throttle with no dither is a bad sign , as is nearly full throttle plus other input like shifting between auto and manual mode or attempts to downshift into redline or repeated quick up or downshift commands .
This would probably be part of the normal ECU rather than a separate circuit .
Additionally , the gas pedal should not report 0-100 \ % , but more like 0-95 \ % and then a little extra push to get it to 95-100 \ % .
The purpose being that a floor mat or other soft object will probably ( though not for sure ) only wedge the pedal with limited force , only enough to get to the detent .
If the pedal * stays * at the detent ( or other fixed position ) for too long and the driver does not push past it ( an act that would take intent ) or back off then there is a very good chance of interference.3 .
Linearity. Many manufacturers seem to be using throttle-by-wire to make it so that the throttle opens up faster in response to light pedal pressure and slower towards the end of the pedal travel .
This gives a test drive impression of more power and torque than is actually there .
However accidental input that just lightly presses the pedal now brings on almost the full force of the engine , giving the driver less time to react to the situation .
Somewhat related , some recent automatic transmissions seem to have a high stall but a quick lockup .
Again , this presents the illusion of more power earlier , but can surprise a driver .
( I have personaly observed both of these problems in my own 2009 vehicle .
It is just way too eager to get going ) .4 .
Automatics in manual mode have hard stops for up and down shifts .
Instead , they should have substantial detents that are used for normal up-down shifting ( so that in normal usage they act the same as they do now ) but when pressed beyond the detent the transmission shifts to neutral and engine power is cut .
This is a mechanically simple thing and could inexpensively be a separate control circuit.5 .
Why on earth do cars allow full throttle in reverse , neutral or park ?
I can see someone using it when stuck in snow or shallow sand , but this should not be normal operation and in non-forward gears , power should be limited unless specifically requested or as part of turning off traction control or only enabled when traction control detects snow or sand situations itself .
Here 's the subtle part .
I do n't just mean that the car should limit RPM while in reverse , neutral or park .
That would be short sighted .
I mean that plus the car should detect that something is wrong and not just resume full throttle the instant they</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In addition to the human factors issues and plain old engineering common sense, here's some other things that would help mitigate the unintended acceleration problem.
Maybe we don't have to do all of them, but one or two of the less expensive options might be practical and still save some lives.1.
watchdog circuit.
there should be a separately engineered CPU and sensor system that just sits around making sure that the ECU is up and running, that's it responding to brake and throttle inputs sensibly, that the airflow through the intake (separately reported from the MAF) is in the right ballpark, engine speed is sensible given throttle opening, gear, and vehicle speed, and that the throttle servo is acting mostly linear and in a timely fashion to inputs, and that the user inputs are sensible given the velocity of the car.
Any problems found should return the throttle to idle.
if the throttle does not return to idle (based on MAF and engine speed) then cut off ignition.
If that doesn't do it, cut off fuel.
These cut-offs should be separate circuits and relays from normal operation.
As I've described it, this is expensive, but a more modest system that monitors only throttle, brake, engine speed and only cuts off spark would still be helpful.2.
Full or nearly full throttle for more than 15 seconds is probably bad input.
Sporty cars could have a competition mode button and low-power cars maybe 20 or 30 seconds is more sensible.
Similar to this, nearly full throttle with no dither is a bad sign, as is nearly full throttle plus other input like shifting between auto and manual mode or attempts to downshift into redline or repeated quick up or downshift commands.
This would probably be part of the normal ECU rather than a separate circuit.
Additionally, the gas pedal should not report 0-100\%, but more like 0-95\% and then a little extra push to get it to 95-100\%.
The purpose being that a floor mat or other soft object will probably (though not for sure) only wedge the pedal with limited force, only enough to get to the detent.
If the pedal *stays* at the detent (or other fixed position) for too long and the driver does not push past it (an act that would take intent) or back off then there is a very good chance of interference.3.
Linearity.  Many manufacturers seem to be using throttle-by-wire to make it so that the throttle opens up faster in response to light pedal pressure and slower towards the end of the pedal travel.
This gives a test drive impression of more power and torque than is actually there.
However accidental input that just lightly presses the pedal now brings on almost the full force of the engine, giving the driver less time to react to the situation.
Somewhat related, some recent automatic transmissions seem to have a high stall but a quick lockup.
Again, this presents the illusion of more power earlier, but can surprise a driver.
(I have personaly observed both of these problems in my own 2009 vehicle.
It is just way too eager to get going).4.
Automatics in manual mode have hard stops for up and down shifts.
Instead, they should have substantial detents that are used for normal up-down shifting (so that in normal usage they act the same as they do now) but when pressed beyond the detent the transmission shifts to neutral and engine power is cut.
This is a mechanically simple thing and could inexpensively be a separate control circuit.5.
Why on earth do cars allow full throttle in reverse, neutral or park?
I can see someone using it when stuck in snow or shallow sand, but this should not be normal operation and in non-forward gears, power should be limited unless specifically requested or as part of turning off traction control or only enabled when traction control detects snow or sand situations itself.
Here's the subtle part.
I don't just mean that the car should limit RPM while in reverse, neutral or park.
That would be short sighted.
I mean that plus the car should detect that something is wrong and not just resume full throttle the instant they</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345348</id>
	<title>PEBPAC?</title>
	<author>Kamidari</author>
	<datestamp>1267631160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Problem Exists Between Petal And Chair</htmltext>
<tokenext>Problem Exists Between Petal And Chair</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Problem Exists Between Petal And Chair</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31350266</id>
	<title>Re: What About Stops On Hills?</title>
	<author>zhenya00</author>
	<datestamp>1267610100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Audi's have had this safety feature for a long time now, but there is a small lag period before the gas is cut, which should be plenty long enough to allow you to control your position on a hill.  It does get in the way of left-foot braking on the track, however.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Audi 's have had this safety feature for a long time now , but there is a small lag period before the gas is cut , which should be plenty long enough to allow you to control your position on a hill .
It does get in the way of left-foot braking on the track , however .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Audi's have had this safety feature for a long time now, but there is a small lag period before the gas is cut, which should be plenty long enough to allow you to control your position on a hill.
It does get in the way of left-foot braking on the track, however.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345532</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31346662</id>
	<title>Re:Idiocy.</title>
	<author>sjames</author>
	<datestamp>1267636740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Keep in mind that in "them olden days", throwing the car in neutral at full throttle was a "significant" incident which could include fire, large plumes of smoke, oil going everywhere and bits of metal flying out of the engine at high speed. Many drivers have been trained to never for any reason shift into neutral with the throttle open.</p><p>Instead, they were taught to switch the engine off. Too bad the "start button" design is screwed up.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Keep in mind that in " them olden days " , throwing the car in neutral at full throttle was a " significant " incident which could include fire , large plumes of smoke , oil going everywhere and bits of metal flying out of the engine at high speed .
Many drivers have been trained to never for any reason shift into neutral with the throttle open.Instead , they were taught to switch the engine off .
Too bad the " start button " design is screwed up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Keep in mind that in "them olden days", throwing the car in neutral at full throttle was a "significant" incident which could include fire, large plumes of smoke, oil going everywhere and bits of metal flying out of the engine at high speed.
Many drivers have been trained to never for any reason shift into neutral with the throttle open.Instead, they were taught to switch the engine off.
Too bad the "start button" design is screwed up.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341722</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343654</id>
	<title>Re:Me thinks</title>
	<author>swilver</author>
	<datestamp>1267622220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Must be user error, we all know that software is proven to be bug free before it is shipped.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Must be user error , we all know that software is proven to be bug free before it is shipped .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Must be user error, we all know that software is proven to be bug free before it is shipped.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341558</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343056</id>
	<title>Erm ... a clutch pedal?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267617360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Unintended acceleration is much less of an issue if you have a good old fashioned clutch pedal. It's interesting to see that most of the publicity about this problem has been in the US where recent figures suggest that only 10\% of new car sales are for cars with a manual gearbox.</p><p>As cars move to using more advance technology with no physical "kill switch" (which is what a clutch is in some senses) such as electric motors I suspect there will be more and more bugs in the drive system where previously there were few issues. I'd suspect that many of the issues the auto industry are currently or about to go through have already happened in the aerospace industry where fly by wire has already been heavily scrutinized.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Unintended acceleration is much less of an issue if you have a good old fashioned clutch pedal .
It 's interesting to see that most of the publicity about this problem has been in the US where recent figures suggest that only 10 \ % of new car sales are for cars with a manual gearbox.As cars move to using more advance technology with no physical " kill switch " ( which is what a clutch is in some senses ) such as electric motors I suspect there will be more and more bugs in the drive system where previously there were few issues .
I 'd suspect that many of the issues the auto industry are currently or about to go through have already happened in the aerospace industry where fly by wire has already been heavily scrutinized .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unintended acceleration is much less of an issue if you have a good old fashioned clutch pedal.
It's interesting to see that most of the publicity about this problem has been in the US where recent figures suggest that only 10\% of new car sales are for cars with a manual gearbox.As cars move to using more advance technology with no physical "kill switch" (which is what a clutch is in some senses) such as electric motors I suspect there will be more and more bugs in the drive system where previously there were few issues.
I'd suspect that many of the issues the auto industry are currently or about to go through have already happened in the aerospace industry where fly by wire has already been heavily scrutinized.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341642</id>
	<title>pay me.</title>
	<author>Michael Kristopeit</author>
	<datestamp>1267648500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>electrical connections.</htmltext>
<tokenext>electrical connections .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>electrical connections.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341714</id>
	<title>Re:Turn the key off or put the car in neutral.....</title>
	<author>jibjibjib</author>
	<datestamp>1267648980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yeah, if common sense were a bit more common you'd realise that people actually do try that and it doesn't work on the models in question.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , if common sense were a bit more common you 'd realise that people actually do try that and it does n't work on the models in question .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, if common sense were a bit more common you'd realise that people actually do try that and it doesn't work on the models in question.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341622</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342952</id>
	<title>Re:Turn the key off or put the car in neutral.....</title>
	<author>ultranova</author>
	<datestamp>1267616460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Anybody who tried to turn the key off would have found themselves moving at highway speeds with dramatically decreased steering.</p></div> </blockquote><p>Good thing you don't need to steer much at highway speeds, eh?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Anybody who tried to turn the key off would have found themselves moving at highway speeds with dramatically decreased steering .
Good thing you do n't need to steer much at highway speeds , eh ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Anybody who tried to turn the key off would have found themselves moving at highway speeds with dramatically decreased steering.
Good thing you don't need to steer much at highway speeds, eh?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341912</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341666</id>
	<title>You can NOT "just put it in neutral"...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267648620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>For the millionth time, these new cars have electronic transmission controls.</p><p>The "shift lever" just tells the computer what to do.</p><p>It is not mechanically linked to the transmission anymore.</p><p>And when the computer screws up, it says "Hey I've got the throttle on full speed right now, no way am I shifting to neutral!"</p><p>And the car speeds up like crazy!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>For the millionth time , these new cars have electronic transmission controls.The " shift lever " just tells the computer what to do.It is not mechanically linked to the transmission anymore.And when the computer screws up , it says " Hey I 've got the throttle on full speed right now , no way am I shifting to neutral !
" And the car speeds up like crazy !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For the millionth time, these new cars have electronic transmission controls.The "shift lever" just tells the computer what to do.It is not mechanically linked to the transmission anymore.And when the computer screws up, it says "Hey I've got the throttle on full speed right now, no way am I shifting to neutral!
"And the car speeds up like crazy!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341652</id>
	<title>It's not the carpet</title>
	<author>countertrolling</author>
	<datestamp>1267648500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The driver was knocked out with chloroform and then the umbrella was jammed between the seat and the gas pedal...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The driver was knocked out with chloroform and then the umbrella was jammed between the seat and the gas pedal.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The driver was knocked out with chloroform and then the umbrella was jammed between the seat and the gas pedal...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343410</id>
	<title>sudden acceleration</title>
	<author>h4rryc4ry</author>
	<datestamp>1267620660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>back in the day, sudden acceleration was caused by the driver next to you revving his engine.</htmltext>
<tokenext>back in the day , sudden acceleration was caused by the driver next to you revving his engine .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>back in the day, sudden acceleration was caused by the driver next to you revving his engine.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341824</id>
	<title>What's with these drive by wire cars?</title>
	<author>Entropius</author>
	<datestamp>1267649820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What's the appeal of these drive-by-wire cars?</p><p>Automatic transmissions I can understand. I don't have one, but I can understand why some people do. But why are people making cars with as little mechanical linkage between the controls and the car as possible? It seems like it's often more expensive and dangerous. What do you get out of it?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What 's the appeal of these drive-by-wire cars ? Automatic transmissions I can understand .
I do n't have one , but I can understand why some people do .
But why are people making cars with as little mechanical linkage between the controls and the car as possible ?
It seems like it 's often more expensive and dangerous .
What do you get out of it ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What's the appeal of these drive-by-wire cars?Automatic transmissions I can understand.
I don't have one, but I can understand why some people do.
But why are people making cars with as little mechanical linkage between the controls and the car as possible?
It seems like it's often more expensive and dangerous.
What do you get out of it?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31352596</id>
	<title>The answer was simple to derive:</title>
	<author>gearloos</author>
	<datestamp>1267621500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Well, I'd tell you but I just submitted it to Edmunds, I'll let ya'll know how the water feels in the Bahamas, where I'll be spending my retirement...</htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , I 'd tell you but I just submitted it to Edmunds , I 'll let ya 'll know how the water feels in the Bahamas , where I 'll be spending my retirement.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, I'd tell you but I just submitted it to Edmunds, I'll let ya'll know how the water feels in the Bahamas, where I'll be spending my retirement...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31347950</id>
	<title>Re:What's with these drive by wire cars?</title>
	<author>ubercam</author>
	<datestamp>1267642320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In my car, a 2002 VW Jetta TDI, there is no butterfly. Engine RPM is regulated by fuel flow, which is regulated by the go pedal electronically. The only valves in the air intake system at all (aside from the intake valves in the cylinder head) are the anti-shudder valve which prevents shudder by immediately cutting off air flow when you turn off the engine, and the EGR valve. The older mechanical diesels VW made were cable operated, but every TDI since 1999.5 in North America (and earlier in Europe) has been drive by wire AFAIK. The gas motors still used mechanical linkage for a while, but I'm not so sure about that for the newer models as I've got no experience with them.</p><p>I've been driving this car since brand new and only ONE time did I ever experience anything remotely resembling unintended acceleration. On the last leg of my trip back home this weekend (total of about 3000km) I was close to running out of fuel and had it on cruise at about 85km/h to for sure make it to the next gas station (it was like 4am and nothing was open) and we went through a big dip in the road. As the car settled down it accelerated for a fraction of a second, just a tiny blip, but I noticed it and so did my buddy. It's possible that the front tires were off the ground momentarily, but I'll never know for sure what exactly took place. I'm not worried about it though.</p><p>I feel safe with drive by wire in my own car. Replacement of the go pedal assembly due to failure isn't entirely unheard of if you read the forums. It wears out just like anything else. Actually, some tuning packages change the ECU mappings of the go pedal to presumably make it more sensitive.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In my car , a 2002 VW Jetta TDI , there is no butterfly .
Engine RPM is regulated by fuel flow , which is regulated by the go pedal electronically .
The only valves in the air intake system at all ( aside from the intake valves in the cylinder head ) are the anti-shudder valve which prevents shudder by immediately cutting off air flow when you turn off the engine , and the EGR valve .
The older mechanical diesels VW made were cable operated , but every TDI since 1999.5 in North America ( and earlier in Europe ) has been drive by wire AFAIK .
The gas motors still used mechanical linkage for a while , but I 'm not so sure about that for the newer models as I 've got no experience with them.I 've been driving this car since brand new and only ONE time did I ever experience anything remotely resembling unintended acceleration .
On the last leg of my trip back home this weekend ( total of about 3000km ) I was close to running out of fuel and had it on cruise at about 85km/h to for sure make it to the next gas station ( it was like 4am and nothing was open ) and we went through a big dip in the road .
As the car settled down it accelerated for a fraction of a second , just a tiny blip , but I noticed it and so did my buddy .
It 's possible that the front tires were off the ground momentarily , but I 'll never know for sure what exactly took place .
I 'm not worried about it though.I feel safe with drive by wire in my own car .
Replacement of the go pedal assembly due to failure is n't entirely unheard of if you read the forums .
It wears out just like anything else .
Actually , some tuning packages change the ECU mappings of the go pedal to presumably make it more sensitive .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In my car, a 2002 VW Jetta TDI, there is no butterfly.
Engine RPM is regulated by fuel flow, which is regulated by the go pedal electronically.
The only valves in the air intake system at all (aside from the intake valves in the cylinder head) are the anti-shudder valve which prevents shudder by immediately cutting off air flow when you turn off the engine, and the EGR valve.
The older mechanical diesels VW made were cable operated, but every TDI since 1999.5 in North America (and earlier in Europe) has been drive by wire AFAIK.
The gas motors still used mechanical linkage for a while, but I'm not so sure about that for the newer models as I've got no experience with them.I've been driving this car since brand new and only ONE time did I ever experience anything remotely resembling unintended acceleration.
On the last leg of my trip back home this weekend (total of about 3000km) I was close to running out of fuel and had it on cruise at about 85km/h to for sure make it to the next gas station (it was like 4am and nothing was open) and we went through a big dip in the road.
As the car settled down it accelerated for a fraction of a second, just a tiny blip, but I noticed it and so did my buddy.
It's possible that the front tires were off the ground momentarily, but I'll never know for sure what exactly took place.
I'm not worried about it though.I feel safe with drive by wire in my own car.
Replacement of the go pedal assembly due to failure isn't entirely unheard of if you read the forums.
It wears out just like anything else.
Actually, some tuning packages change the ECU mappings of the go pedal to presumably make it more sensitive.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341824</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31347156</id>
	<title>Re:Requiring strong brakes?</title>
	<author>jenningsthecat</author>
	<datestamp>1267638660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The parking brake, even if it's just been adjusted so that it exerts maximum braking power when the lever is pulled, is not a viable solution. The parking brake only works on the REAR wheels. So it only provides half, (or less than half), of normal maximum braking capacity; not to mention that applying it while you're driving at speed can cause the back end of the car to pass the front end in the blink of an eye. Putting your car into a spin while the accelerator is stuck? Not a good idea...</htmltext>
<tokenext>The parking brake , even if it 's just been adjusted so that it exerts maximum braking power when the lever is pulled , is not a viable solution .
The parking brake only works on the REAR wheels .
So it only provides half , ( or less than half ) , of normal maximum braking capacity ; not to mention that applying it while you 're driving at speed can cause the back end of the car to pass the front end in the blink of an eye .
Putting your car into a spin while the accelerator is stuck ?
Not a good idea.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The parking brake, even if it's just been adjusted so that it exerts maximum braking power when the lever is pulled, is not a viable solution.
The parking brake only works on the REAR wheels.
So it only provides half, (or less than half), of normal maximum braking capacity; not to mention that applying it while you're driving at speed can cause the back end of the car to pass the front end in the blink of an eye.
Putting your car into a spin while the accelerator is stuck?
Not a good idea...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343758</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31350180</id>
	<title>Re:drive by wire = death</title>
	<author>zhenya00</author>
	<datestamp>1267609560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Throttle cables stick all the time.  There must be 20 people in this one thread who have had it happen.  There may not be 20 people in the entire COUNTRY that had that happen with DBW in the last 10 years.

<p>Exactly how did disabling your ABS improve its handling?  I suppose you are one of those who thinks they can threshold brake perfectly in an emergency situation.  I also suppose you didn't realize that your ABS likely controls your brake bias.  FCUK....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Throttle cables stick all the time .
There must be 20 people in this one thread who have had it happen .
There may not be 20 people in the entire COUNTRY that had that happen with DBW in the last 10 years .
Exactly how did disabling your ABS improve its handling ?
I suppose you are one of those who thinks they can threshold brake perfectly in an emergency situation .
I also suppose you did n't realize that your ABS likely controls your brake bias .
FCUK... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Throttle cables stick all the time.
There must be 20 people in this one thread who have had it happen.
There may not be 20 people in the entire COUNTRY that had that happen with DBW in the last 10 years.
Exactly how did disabling your ABS improve its handling?
I suppose you are one of those who thinks they can threshold brake perfectly in an emergency situation.
I also suppose you didn't realize that your ABS likely controls your brake bias.
FCUK....</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344396</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31346786</id>
	<title>Re:Misleading summary</title>
	<author>Pigeon451</author>
	<datestamp>1267637280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"The proposal of having engine power being cut off when the brakes are applied seems to be sensible, however there are certain situations where you will need both the engine power and brakes on at the same time. Such as starting from a stop on a hill."</p><p>You NEVER need both brake and power at the same time. Doing this would require both feet, which is a big no-no. Off the brake, onto the accelerator, easy as pie. If you have a clutch, even easier.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" The proposal of having engine power being cut off when the brakes are applied seems to be sensible , however there are certain situations where you will need both the engine power and brakes on at the same time .
Such as starting from a stop on a hill .
" You NEVER need both brake and power at the same time .
Doing this would require both feet , which is a big no-no .
Off the brake , onto the accelerator , easy as pie .
If you have a clutch , even easier .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"The proposal of having engine power being cut off when the brakes are applied seems to be sensible, however there are certain situations where you will need both the engine power and brakes on at the same time.
Such as starting from a stop on a hill.
"You NEVER need both brake and power at the same time.
Doing this would require both feet, which is a big no-no.
Off the brake, onto the accelerator, easy as pie.
If you have a clutch, even easier.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341822</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31346426</id>
	<title>Audi's probelm was pedal placement</title>
	<author>mixed\_signal</author>
	<datestamp>1267635720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It seemed to be pretty well settled that the problem with the Audi 5000's in the 1980's was due to placement of the pedal cluster.  In these cars, the gas and brake pedals were shifted left relative to their location in typical, large American autos. Investigators had found that in many cases the gas pedals were bent out of shape and the air-conditioning cut-off switch under the pedal broken - and the driver saying "I was pressing as hard as I could on the pedal and it kept going faster!"  There was some finding that most of the drivers in the accidents had their first Audi, within six months of ownership, and had previously driven a large American car.</p><p>So the problem was ergonomic, and Audi did a terrible job handling the complaints and addressing the issue.  Their sales tanked for a decade.</p><p>By the way, Car and Driver magazine did a test at the time and demonstrated that braking "horsepower" is always higher than engine output, assuming the brakes work.  They did several tests where they took cars up to 60mph and then held the accelerator down while braking.  In every case the car came to a stop - eventually.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It seemed to be pretty well settled that the problem with the Audi 5000 's in the 1980 's was due to placement of the pedal cluster .
In these cars , the gas and brake pedals were shifted left relative to their location in typical , large American autos .
Investigators had found that in many cases the gas pedals were bent out of shape and the air-conditioning cut-off switch under the pedal broken - and the driver saying " I was pressing as hard as I could on the pedal and it kept going faster !
" There was some finding that most of the drivers in the accidents had their first Audi , within six months of ownership , and had previously driven a large American car.So the problem was ergonomic , and Audi did a terrible job handling the complaints and addressing the issue .
Their sales tanked for a decade.By the way , Car and Driver magazine did a test at the time and demonstrated that braking " horsepower " is always higher than engine output , assuming the brakes work .
They did several tests where they took cars up to 60mph and then held the accelerator down while braking .
In every case the car came to a stop - eventually .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It seemed to be pretty well settled that the problem with the Audi 5000's in the 1980's was due to placement of the pedal cluster.
In these cars, the gas and brake pedals were shifted left relative to their location in typical, large American autos.
Investigators had found that in many cases the gas pedals were bent out of shape and the air-conditioning cut-off switch under the pedal broken - and the driver saying "I was pressing as hard as I could on the pedal and it kept going faster!
"  There was some finding that most of the drivers in the accidents had their first Audi, within six months of ownership, and had previously driven a large American car.So the problem was ergonomic, and Audi did a terrible job handling the complaints and addressing the issue.
Their sales tanked for a decade.By the way, Car and Driver magazine did a test at the time and demonstrated that braking "horsepower" is always higher than engine output, assuming the brakes work.
They did several tests where they took cars up to 60mph and then held the accelerator down while braking.
In every case the car came to a stop - eventually.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344052</id>
	<title>Anonymous Coward</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267624800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Geez, for how many car analogies I see on here you geeks sure don't know much about how they actually work.  The advantages of throttle by wire is 100\% for fuel economy and throttle response.  By separating the throttle butterflies from the accelerator and actuating them electrically or hydraulically, the throttle butterflies can be fluttered very quickly in real time based on a ton of sensory inputs to counteract intake bad intake resonance and turbulence and smooth power delivery.  More accurate fuel/air delivery results.  Even more electronic trickery is coming into play to improve emissions and make more power per unit of fuel.  Variable valve timing is just about standard now, and variable intake runner length and exhaust butterflies are becoming more and more common.</p><p>That's all on the engine side.  There's plenty of code also necessary to run all of the chassis advancements that have become near-ubiquitous over the last decade.  Traction and stability control systems are getting to be standard.  These take into account wheel speed sensors at each wheel, throttle and steering position sensors, yaw and pitch sensors in some cases, etc.  It's a lot of computing.</p><p>Then throw all of the safety systems into the can of worms...  Now we're seeing lane departure systems, rain sensors, adaptive cruise control, parking sensors, and plenty more where that came from.</p><p>These are all good things, so let's not be luddites and beg for the good ol' days just yet.  The systems are good, they just need to work right.  Seems some manufacturers have it figured out, some don't.  Hell, there are plenty of motorcycles out there on the street with ride by wire throttles, and more and more manufacturers are being forced to go that route for emissions purposes.</p><p>As for the notion that brakes (god I hate it when people spell that "breaks"...) should be able to bring a car to a stop from speed and at WOT, that's just ridiculous.  Even race cars can't do this.  Hell, just under normal use I've heard the stories of race bar brakes exploding from heat and stress.  A brake is just a device used to convert mechanical energy into heat energy.  They cannot dissipate infinite amounts of heat any more than your OEM heat sink cannot handle your processor being overclocked to twice its speed.  Most cars nowadays have an abundance of power.  Keep that power applied and clamp on the brakes and they'll quickly heat up to the point that they're ineffective (assuming a vehicle already in motion at a decent speed when the brakes are applied).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Geez , for how many car analogies I see on here you geeks sure do n't know much about how they actually work .
The advantages of throttle by wire is 100 \ % for fuel economy and throttle response .
By separating the throttle butterflies from the accelerator and actuating them electrically or hydraulically , the throttle butterflies can be fluttered very quickly in real time based on a ton of sensory inputs to counteract intake bad intake resonance and turbulence and smooth power delivery .
More accurate fuel/air delivery results .
Even more electronic trickery is coming into play to improve emissions and make more power per unit of fuel .
Variable valve timing is just about standard now , and variable intake runner length and exhaust butterflies are becoming more and more common.That 's all on the engine side .
There 's plenty of code also necessary to run all of the chassis advancements that have become near-ubiquitous over the last decade .
Traction and stability control systems are getting to be standard .
These take into account wheel speed sensors at each wheel , throttle and steering position sensors , yaw and pitch sensors in some cases , etc .
It 's a lot of computing.Then throw all of the safety systems into the can of worms... Now we 're seeing lane departure systems , rain sensors , adaptive cruise control , parking sensors , and plenty more where that came from.These are all good things , so let 's not be luddites and beg for the good ol ' days just yet .
The systems are good , they just need to work right .
Seems some manufacturers have it figured out , some do n't .
Hell , there are plenty of motorcycles out there on the street with ride by wire throttles , and more and more manufacturers are being forced to go that route for emissions purposes.As for the notion that brakes ( god I hate it when people spell that " breaks " ... ) should be able to bring a car to a stop from speed and at WOT , that 's just ridiculous .
Even race cars ca n't do this .
Hell , just under normal use I 've heard the stories of race bar brakes exploding from heat and stress .
A brake is just a device used to convert mechanical energy into heat energy .
They can not dissipate infinite amounts of heat any more than your OEM heat sink can not handle your processor being overclocked to twice its speed .
Most cars nowadays have an abundance of power .
Keep that power applied and clamp on the brakes and they 'll quickly heat up to the point that they 're ineffective ( assuming a vehicle already in motion at a decent speed when the brakes are applied ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Geez, for how many car analogies I see on here you geeks sure don't know much about how they actually work.
The advantages of throttle by wire is 100\% for fuel economy and throttle response.
By separating the throttle butterflies from the accelerator and actuating them electrically or hydraulically, the throttle butterflies can be fluttered very quickly in real time based on a ton of sensory inputs to counteract intake bad intake resonance and turbulence and smooth power delivery.
More accurate fuel/air delivery results.
Even more electronic trickery is coming into play to improve emissions and make more power per unit of fuel.
Variable valve timing is just about standard now, and variable intake runner length and exhaust butterflies are becoming more and more common.That's all on the engine side.
There's plenty of code also necessary to run all of the chassis advancements that have become near-ubiquitous over the last decade.
Traction and stability control systems are getting to be standard.
These take into account wheel speed sensors at each wheel, throttle and steering position sensors, yaw and pitch sensors in some cases, etc.
It's a lot of computing.Then throw all of the safety systems into the can of worms...  Now we're seeing lane departure systems, rain sensors, adaptive cruise control, parking sensors, and plenty more where that came from.These are all good things, so let's not be luddites and beg for the good ol' days just yet.
The systems are good, they just need to work right.
Seems some manufacturers have it figured out, some don't.
Hell, there are plenty of motorcycles out there on the street with ride by wire throttles, and more and more manufacturers are being forced to go that route for emissions purposes.As for the notion that brakes (god I hate it when people spell that "breaks"...) should be able to bring a car to a stop from speed and at WOT, that's just ridiculous.
Even race cars can't do this.
Hell, just under normal use I've heard the stories of race bar brakes exploding from heat and stress.
A brake is just a device used to convert mechanical energy into heat energy.
They cannot dissipate infinite amounts of heat any more than your OEM heat sink cannot handle your processor being overclocked to twice its speed.
Most cars nowadays have an abundance of power.
Keep that power applied and clamp on the brakes and they'll quickly heat up to the point that they're ineffective (assuming a vehicle already in motion at a decent speed when the brakes are applied).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31346648</id>
	<title>Re:Hmmm....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267636740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>drive by wire became popular due to the layer on layer of emission requirements passed down by CARB.   tuning an engine for emissions is easy for steady state operations.  set your peak combustion pressure to 15deg ATDC, AFR to stoich, and lean it out as you run it through a 4 gas analyzer till it passes.  once you start altering load, manifold vac, timing, air/fuel ratios, it gets really hard.   thus the throttle bumpers on 90s VAGs, the 'throttle lift lag' due to IACs on later cars, and the eventual usage of part/full DBW.</p><p>all we need is a big red STOP button on the middle of the dash, like you see in any professional sanctioned race car.   wouldn't help to have a battery disconnect as required equipment on all cars as well, for the first responders.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>drive by wire became popular due to the layer on layer of emission requirements passed down by CARB .
tuning an engine for emissions is easy for steady state operations .
set your peak combustion pressure to 15deg ATDC , AFR to stoich , and lean it out as you run it through a 4 gas analyzer till it passes .
once you start altering load , manifold vac , timing , air/fuel ratios , it gets really hard .
thus the throttle bumpers on 90s VAGs , the 'throttle lift lag ' due to IACs on later cars , and the eventual usage of part/full DBW.all we need is a big red STOP button on the middle of the dash , like you see in any professional sanctioned race car .
would n't help to have a battery disconnect as required equipment on all cars as well , for the first responders .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>drive by wire became popular due to the layer on layer of emission requirements passed down by CARB.
tuning an engine for emissions is easy for steady state operations.
set your peak combustion pressure to 15deg ATDC, AFR to stoich, and lean it out as you run it through a 4 gas analyzer till it passes.
once you start altering load, manifold vac, timing, air/fuel ratios, it gets really hard.
thus the throttle bumpers on 90s VAGs, the 'throttle lift lag' due to IACs on later cars, and the eventual usage of part/full DBW.all we need is a big red STOP button on the middle of the dash, like you see in any professional sanctioned race car.
wouldn't help to have a battery disconnect as required equipment on all cars as well, for the first responders.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341660</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343330</id>
	<title>Re:No they don't, the transmission is SOFTWARE</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267620000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There is no transmission or key on these cars, it is all done in software.  Haven't you ever had a laptop lock up so badly that you had to unplug it and remove the battery?  Or even had an iPod lock up to the point you had to wait for the battery to die (because you can't remove the battery)?  That is exactly what is going on here.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is no transmission or key on these cars , it is all done in software .
Have n't you ever had a laptop lock up so badly that you had to unplug it and remove the battery ?
Or even had an iPod lock up to the point you had to wait for the battery to die ( because you ca n't remove the battery ) ?
That is exactly what is going on here .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is no transmission or key on these cars, it is all done in software.
Haven't you ever had a laptop lock up so badly that you had to unplug it and remove the battery?
Or even had an iPod lock up to the point you had to wait for the battery to die (because you can't remove the battery)?
That is exactly what is going on here.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341790</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342694</id>
	<title>Re:What's with these drive by wire cars?</title>
	<author>Joce640k</author>
	<datestamp>1267613880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You never had a snapped cable?</p><p>Mechanical parts are actually much less reliable.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You never had a snapped cable ? Mechanical parts are actually much less reliable .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You never had a snapped cable?Mechanical parts are actually much less reliable.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341824</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31350228</id>
	<title>Re:pots &amp; encoders fail with unpredicable resu</title>
	<author>zhenya00</author>
	<datestamp>1267609860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There is an in-depth explanation of why this is unlikely further up in this thread, but basically, a decent DBW system is very redundant, with multiple sensors compared and any variance causing a limp condition.  Furthermore, the angle of the throttle plate itself and the volume of air coming by the MAF sensor is compared and again, if the values are implausible, the car goes into limp mode.</htmltext>
<tokenext>There is an in-depth explanation of why this is unlikely further up in this thread , but basically , a decent DBW system is very redundant , with multiple sensors compared and any variance causing a limp condition .
Furthermore , the angle of the throttle plate itself and the volume of air coming by the MAF sensor is compared and again , if the values are implausible , the car goes into limp mode .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is an in-depth explanation of why this is unlikely further up in this thread, but basically, a decent DBW system is very redundant, with multiple sensors compared and any variance causing a limp condition.
Furthermore, the angle of the throttle plate itself and the volume of air coming by the MAF sensor is compared and again, if the values are implausible, the car goes into limp mode.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345014</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345682</id>
	<title>Re:You can NOT "just put it in neutral"...</title>
	<author>Cro Magnon</author>
	<datestamp>1267632480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe your owners manual recommends that you shift between N and D when you are stopping and starting.</p></div></blockquote><p>I don't recall any such recommendation in my Saturn owners manual.  The only time I ever use N is coasting down an icy hill, and it DOES help quite a bit with stopping and control.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>correct me if I 'm wrong , but I believe your owners manual recommends that you shift between N and D when you are stopping and starting.I do n't recall any such recommendation in my Saturn owners manual .
The only time I ever use N is coasting down an icy hill , and it DOES help quite a bit with stopping and control .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe your owners manual recommends that you shift between N and D when you are stopping and starting.I don't recall any such recommendation in my Saturn owners manual.
The only time I ever use N is coasting down an icy hill, and it DOES help quite a bit with stopping and control.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343840</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343096</id>
	<title>Re:You can NOT "just put it in neutral"...</title>
	<author>indiechild</author>
	<datestamp>1267617720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>From my reading, pushing the brakes (yes, even real hard) does not cause the electronics to cut the gas in Toyotas -- this is one of the usability problems in Toyotas, so to speak. However, in all tests, the brakes in Toyotas are able to overpower the engine, although it might take a bit longer to stop than normal.</p><p>I believe in the future Toyota plan to introduce an engine cut-off feature when the brakes are applied hard.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>From my reading , pushing the brakes ( yes , even real hard ) does not cause the electronics to cut the gas in Toyotas -- this is one of the usability problems in Toyotas , so to speak .
However , in all tests , the brakes in Toyotas are able to overpower the engine , although it might take a bit longer to stop than normal.I believe in the future Toyota plan to introduce an engine cut-off feature when the brakes are applied hard .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>From my reading, pushing the brakes (yes, even real hard) does not cause the electronics to cut the gas in Toyotas -- this is one of the usability problems in Toyotas, so to speak.
However, in all tests, the brakes in Toyotas are able to overpower the engine, although it might take a bit longer to stop than normal.I believe in the future Toyota plan to introduce an engine cut-off feature when the brakes are applied hard.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341964</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341912</id>
	<title>Re:Turn the key off or put the car in neutral.....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267607280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's asinine.</p><p>Being able to shift to neutral is a required safety feature. Because all drive-by-wire vehicles are recent in design, you will not find a single one that doesn't allow shifting to neutral at any speed and is legal to sell in the US.</p><p>Furthermore, you realize you just made the claim that people tried to "turn the key off" and were unsuccessful? What kind of world do you live on? Anybody who tried to turn the key off would have found themselves moving at highway speeds with dramatically decreased steering.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's asinine.Being able to shift to neutral is a required safety feature .
Because all drive-by-wire vehicles are recent in design , you will not find a single one that does n't allow shifting to neutral at any speed and is legal to sell in the US.Furthermore , you realize you just made the claim that people tried to " turn the key off " and were unsuccessful ?
What kind of world do you live on ?
Anybody who tried to turn the key off would have found themselves moving at highway speeds with dramatically decreased steering .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's asinine.Being able to shift to neutral is a required safety feature.
Because all drive-by-wire vehicles are recent in design, you will not find a single one that doesn't allow shifting to neutral at any speed and is legal to sell in the US.Furthermore, you realize you just made the claim that people tried to "turn the key off" and were unsuccessful?
What kind of world do you live on?
Anybody who tried to turn the key off would have found themselves moving at highway speeds with dramatically decreased steering.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341714</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341858</id>
	<title>Show us the source code</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267606800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>of the controllers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>of the controllers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>of the controllers.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31347088</id>
	<title>Stupid.</title>
	<author>JDmetro</author>
	<datestamp>1267638420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Parking brakes are not emergency brakes as they are sometimes called. Using your parking brake to try to slow down a speeding car is the stupidest thing a person can do. It will result in losing control of your car and injuring yourself and/or other motorists.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Parking brakes are not emergency brakes as they are sometimes called .
Using your parking brake to try to slow down a speeding car is the stupidest thing a person can do .
It will result in losing control of your car and injuring yourself and/or other motorists .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Parking brakes are not emergency brakes as they are sometimes called.
Using your parking brake to try to slow down a speeding car is the stupidest thing a person can do.
It will result in losing control of your car and injuring yourself and/or other motorists.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343758</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343866</id>
	<title>Steel Cable</title>
	<author>Rainwulf</author>
	<datestamp>1267623540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Drive by wire, stop it!<br>I just bought a brand new new car, its a hyundai Tiburon. There is this nice braided stainless steel cable between my throttle body and my foot. This is a brand new 2009 model sports car.</p><p>I lift my foot, car slows down. There is your solution.</p><p>step 1<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:profit.</p><p>wheres my freaking profit dammit!<br>Its a recipe for disaster using pure electronics to control the speed of an engine. In a device that often weighs over a ton, that can cause massive and greivous bodily damage. Resistors fail. Motors lock up. Drive MOSFETs get latched on, wires short circuit, capacitors short circuit or explode.</p><p>To be honest, i also wonder why these people dont work out to turn the damn ignition off, put the car in neutral, and push on their brakes with all their might. I understand that vacuum assist brakes dont work well when you have a wide open throttle, but they still work.</p><p>As i understand, there is NO physical device that prevents someone from turning the damn ignition off!!!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Drive by wire , stop it ! I just bought a brand new new car , its a hyundai Tiburon .
There is this nice braided stainless steel cable between my throttle body and my foot .
This is a brand new 2009 model sports car.I lift my foot , car slows down .
There is your solution.step 1 : profit.wheres my freaking profit dammit ! Its a recipe for disaster using pure electronics to control the speed of an engine .
In a device that often weighs over a ton , that can cause massive and greivous bodily damage .
Resistors fail .
Motors lock up .
Drive MOSFETs get latched on , wires short circuit , capacitors short circuit or explode.To be honest , i also wonder why these people dont work out to turn the damn ignition off , put the car in neutral , and push on their brakes with all their might .
I understand that vacuum assist brakes dont work well when you have a wide open throttle , but they still work.As i understand , there is NO physical device that prevents someone from turning the damn ignition off ! !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Drive by wire, stop it!I just bought a brand new new car, its a hyundai Tiburon.
There is this nice braided stainless steel cable between my throttle body and my foot.
This is a brand new 2009 model sports car.I lift my foot, car slows down.
There is your solution.step 1 :profit.wheres my freaking profit dammit!Its a recipe for disaster using pure electronics to control the speed of an engine.
In a device that often weighs over a ton, that can cause massive and greivous bodily damage.
Resistors fail.
Motors lock up.
Drive MOSFETs get latched on, wires short circuit, capacitors short circuit or explode.To be honest, i also wonder why these people dont work out to turn the damn ignition off, put the car in neutral, and push on their brakes with all their might.
I understand that vacuum assist brakes dont work well when you have a wide open throttle, but they still work.As i understand, there is NO physical device that prevents someone from turning the damn ignition off!!
!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31346812</id>
	<title>Re:AWESOME CONTEST!!!</title>
	<author>Ihmhi</author>
	<datestamp>1267637340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Seriously though, how hard can this shit be?</p><p>Push down on pedal. Make car go. Push down on pedal harder, <em>make car go faster</em>.</p><p>What, did some moron forget to close a tag or something? It baffles me that there can be a problem like this in what should be a relatively simple system.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Seriously though , how hard can this shit be ? Push down on pedal .
Make car go .
Push down on pedal harder , make car go faster.What , did some moron forget to close a tag or something ?
It baffles me that there can be a problem like this in what should be a relatively simple system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seriously though, how hard can this shit be?Push down on pedal.
Make car go.
Push down on pedal harder, make car go faster.What, did some moron forget to close a tag or something?
It baffles me that there can be a problem like this in what should be a relatively simple system.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341820</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31347004</id>
	<title>Re:Kill Switch?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267638060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I find automated systems like that counter-intuitive, thus more dangerous.  Nothing replaces KNOWING your vehicle.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I find automated systems like that counter-intuitive , thus more dangerous .
Nothing replaces KNOWING your vehicle .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I find automated systems like that counter-intuitive, thus more dangerous.
Nothing replaces KNOWING your vehicle.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342400</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31349298</id>
	<title>Oh, so its not about the Pioneer Anomaly</title>
	<author>Baldrson</author>
	<datestamp>1267648860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>For a second there, I thought someone was serious about getting to the bottom of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer\_anomaly" title="wikipedia.org">Pioneer anomaly</a> [wikipedia.org]:<blockquote><div><p>The Pioneer anomaly or Pioneer effect is the observed deviation from predicted trajectories and velocities of various unmanned spacecraft visiting the outer solar system, most notably Pioneer 10 and Pioneer 11.
</p><p>
Both Pioneer spacecraft are escaping from the solar system, and are slowing down under the influence of the Sun's gravity. Upon very close examination, however, they are slowing down slightly more than expected. The effect can be modeled as a slight additional acceleration towards the Sun.
</p><p>
The anomaly has no universally accepted explanation. The explanation may be mundane, such as measurement error, thrust from gas leakage or uneven radiation of heat. However, it is also possible that current physical theory does not correctly explain the behaviour of the craft relative to the sun.</p></div></blockquote><p>
Of course, validating the winning explanation is the problem since the heretical Enlightenment placed barbaric experimentation over civilized argumentation.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>For a second there , I thought someone was serious about getting to the bottom of the Pioneer anomaly [ wikipedia.org ] : The Pioneer anomaly or Pioneer effect is the observed deviation from predicted trajectories and velocities of various unmanned spacecraft visiting the outer solar system , most notably Pioneer 10 and Pioneer 11 .
Both Pioneer spacecraft are escaping from the solar system , and are slowing down under the influence of the Sun 's gravity .
Upon very close examination , however , they are slowing down slightly more than expected .
The effect can be modeled as a slight additional acceleration towards the Sun .
The anomaly has no universally accepted explanation .
The explanation may be mundane , such as measurement error , thrust from gas leakage or uneven radiation of heat .
However , it is also possible that current physical theory does not correctly explain the behaviour of the craft relative to the sun .
Of course , validating the winning explanation is the problem since the heretical Enlightenment placed barbaric experimentation over civilized argumentation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For a second there, I thought someone was serious about getting to the bottom of the Pioneer anomaly [wikipedia.org]:The Pioneer anomaly or Pioneer effect is the observed deviation from predicted trajectories and velocities of various unmanned spacecraft visiting the outer solar system, most notably Pioneer 10 and Pioneer 11.
Both Pioneer spacecraft are escaping from the solar system, and are slowing down under the influence of the Sun's gravity.
Upon very close examination, however, they are slowing down slightly more than expected.
The effect can be modeled as a slight additional acceleration towards the Sun.
The anomaly has no universally accepted explanation.
The explanation may be mundane, such as measurement error, thrust from gas leakage or uneven radiation of heat.
However, it is also possible that current physical theory does not correctly explain the behaviour of the craft relative to the sun.
Of course, validating the winning explanation is the problem since the heretical Enlightenment placed barbaric experimentation over civilized argumentation.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345038</id>
	<title>Car and Driver</title>
	<author>c\_jonescc</author>
	<datestamp>1267629840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Car and Driver looked into how well a car could stop with the accelerator pinned, and at highway speeds it took only 80 extra feet to stop for a 540bhp Mustang.  Less powerful cars had a smaller difference in stopping distances.

<a href="http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how\_to\_deal\_with\_unintended\_acceleration-tech\_dept" title="caranddriver.com">http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how\_to\_deal\_with\_unintended\_acceleration-tech\_dept</a> [caranddriver.com]

In the end, the solution is to not panic, and have been trained in what to do in this particular crisis.  I think this recall has caused many many people to think about what to do if they ever are stuck in a car with the throttle stuck, which is a good thing.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Car and Driver looked into how well a car could stop with the accelerator pinned , and at highway speeds it took only 80 extra feet to stop for a 540bhp Mustang .
Less powerful cars had a smaller difference in stopping distances .
http : //www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how \ _to \ _deal \ _with \ _unintended \ _acceleration-tech \ _dept [ caranddriver.com ] In the end , the solution is to not panic , and have been trained in what to do in this particular crisis .
I think this recall has caused many many people to think about what to do if they ever are stuck in a car with the throttle stuck , which is a good thing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Car and Driver looked into how well a car could stop with the accelerator pinned, and at highway speeds it took only 80 extra feet to stop for a 540bhp Mustang.
Less powerful cars had a smaller difference in stopping distances.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how\_to\_deal\_with\_unintended\_acceleration-tech\_dept [caranddriver.com]

In the end, the solution is to not panic, and have been trained in what to do in this particular crisis.
I think this recall has caused many many people to think about what to do if they ever are stuck in a car with the throttle stuck, which is a good thing.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345382</id>
	<title>Must be Microsoft</title>
	<author>midicase</author>
	<datestamp>1267631340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"what are these cars doing with such massive embedded systems in them?"</p><p>They must be running Microsoft software:<br><a href="http://www.microsoft.com/auto/default.mspx" title="microsoft.com">http://www.microsoft.com/auto/default.mspx</a> [microsoft.com]</p><p>I am pretty sure millions of lines code also include navigation, radio and other non-critical systems.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" what are these cars doing with such massive embedded systems in them ?
" They must be running Microsoft software : http : //www.microsoft.com/auto/default.mspx [ microsoft.com ] I am pretty sure millions of lines code also include navigation , radio and other non-critical systems .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"what are these cars doing with such massive embedded systems in them?
"They must be running Microsoft software:http://www.microsoft.com/auto/default.mspx [microsoft.com]I am pretty sure millions of lines code also include navigation, radio and other non-critical systems.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342026</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342542</id>
	<title>Re:Turn the key off or put the car in neutral.....</title>
	<author>c6gunner</author>
	<datestamp>1267612680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Have you ever tried it? In any sane car (and I except 2 tonne SUV monstrosities) you don't need power steering to steer effectively except at very low speed.</p></div><p>Yep.  I had my coolant pump disintegrate while doing<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... a wee bit over the speed limit on a highway.  It had the effect of entirely disconnecting the accessory drive belt, which also drives the power steering.  I pulled over as soon as I could just to prevent the engine from overheating, but I didn't even realize I'd lost power steering until my speed dropped down to around 40km/h.  Even at that speed the car was easily steerable, but kept getting stiffer and stiffer as my speed continued to decrease.</p><p>It's got nothing to do with whether the car is "sane" or not - it's simple physics.  You see the same thing with old cars that don't have power steering in the first place - the slower you're moving, the harder it is to steer.  I had the unfortunate experience of learning to parallel-park in an old civic with no power steering; let's just say it wasn't an enjoyable experience, although the car handled great at highway speeds.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Have you ever tried it ?
In any sane car ( and I except 2 tonne SUV monstrosities ) you do n't need power steering to steer effectively except at very low speed.Yep .
I had my coolant pump disintegrate while doing ... a wee bit over the speed limit on a highway .
It had the effect of entirely disconnecting the accessory drive belt , which also drives the power steering .
I pulled over as soon as I could just to prevent the engine from overheating , but I did n't even realize I 'd lost power steering until my speed dropped down to around 40km/h .
Even at that speed the car was easily steerable , but kept getting stiffer and stiffer as my speed continued to decrease.It 's got nothing to do with whether the car is " sane " or not - it 's simple physics .
You see the same thing with old cars that do n't have power steering in the first place - the slower you 're moving , the harder it is to steer .
I had the unfortunate experience of learning to parallel-park in an old civic with no power steering ; let 's just say it was n't an enjoyable experience , although the car handled great at highway speeds .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Have you ever tried it?
In any sane car (and I except 2 tonne SUV monstrosities) you don't need power steering to steer effectively except at very low speed.Yep.
I had my coolant pump disintegrate while doing ... a wee bit over the speed limit on a highway.
It had the effect of entirely disconnecting the accessory drive belt, which also drives the power steering.
I pulled over as soon as I could just to prevent the engine from overheating, but I didn't even realize I'd lost power steering until my speed dropped down to around 40km/h.
Even at that speed the car was easily steerable, but kept getting stiffer and stiffer as my speed continued to decrease.It's got nothing to do with whether the car is "sane" or not - it's simple physics.
You see the same thing with old cars that don't have power steering in the first place - the slower you're moving, the harder it is to steer.
I had the unfortunate experience of learning to parallel-park in an old civic with no power steering; let's just say it wasn't an enjoyable experience, although the car handled great at highway speeds.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341978</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345738</id>
	<title>Re:Solution</title>
	<author>Stormy Dragon</author>
	<datestamp>1267632660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There was a report on NPR yesterday that most cars (including Ford, GM, and Honda, but not Toyota) already have an interlink that causes the breaking system to disconnect the throttle when the brakes are activated.</htmltext>
<tokenext>There was a report on NPR yesterday that most cars ( including Ford , GM , and Honda , but not Toyota ) already have an interlink that causes the breaking system to disconnect the throttle when the brakes are activated .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There was a report on NPR yesterday that most cars (including Ford, GM, and Honda, but not Toyota) already have an interlink that causes the breaking system to disconnect the throttle when the brakes are activated.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344336</id>
	<title>Re:Kill Switch?</title>
	<author>thygate</author>
	<datestamp>1267626420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>What does adding all that complexity get you,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>..</p></div><p>Electronic VS Mechanical injection gives you a MUCH more efficient engine.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>What does adding all that complexity get you , ..Electronic VS Mechanical injection gives you a MUCH more efficient engine .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What does adding all that complexity get you, ..Electronic VS Mechanical injection gives you a MUCH more efficient engine.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342026</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31348210</id>
	<title>I know</title>
	<author>SnarfQuest</author>
	<datestamp>1267643520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ok, I'll take the blame. I did it. Now, please send me that $1M.</p><p>Ummm... this doesn't really make me financially responsible does it, cause otherwise that $1M might not go too far.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ok , I 'll take the blame .
I did it .
Now , please send me that $ 1M.Ummm... this does n't really make me financially responsible does it , cause otherwise that $ 1M might not go too far .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ok, I'll take the blame.
I did it.
Now, please send me that $1M.Ummm... this doesn't really make me financially responsible does it, cause otherwise that $1M might not go too far.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342062</id>
	<title>Easy, cut injection on brake switch</title>
	<author>dutchwhizzman</author>
	<datestamp>1267608420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Just make the ECU cut injection on hitting the brake switch with the car still running. It takes some programming not to make the car stall so you can't just use a mechanical switch, but it's trivial.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Just make the ECU cut injection on hitting the brake switch with the car still running .
It takes some programming not to make the car stall so you ca n't just use a mechanical switch , but it 's trivial .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just make the ECU cut injection on hitting the brake switch with the car still running.
It takes some programming not to make the car stall so you can't just use a mechanical switch, but it's trivial.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343940</id>
	<title>So many comments yet no one...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267624020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>remembers. AUDI = Accelerates Under Demonic Influence. Old stuff.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>remembers .
AUDI = Accelerates Under Demonic Influence .
Old stuff .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>remembers.
AUDI = Accelerates Under Demonic Influence.
Old stuff.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342072</id>
	<title>Re:Turn the key off or put the car in neutral.....</title>
	<author>confused one</author>
	<datestamp>1267608480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>And if common sense RTFM, then it would know there are overides, even on these more complex cars (where you really should RTFM).  Like holding down the "Start" button until the engine shuts off (just like your PC).</htmltext>
<tokenext>And if common sense RTFM , then it would know there are overides , even on these more complex cars ( where you really should RTFM ) .
Like holding down the " Start " button until the engine shuts off ( just like your PC ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And if common sense RTFM, then it would know there are overides, even on these more complex cars (where you really should RTFM).
Like holding down the "Start" button until the engine shuts off (just like your PC).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341714</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31348394</id>
	<title>Re:AWESOME CONTEST!!!</title>
	<author>varmittang</author>
	<datestamp>1267644360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Like many onboard automobile sensors, they are also completely isolated from the vehicle ground. To reduce the potential for interference or mistakes, they operate at different voltages. The first sensor, known as ACCEL POS #1, has a nominal voltage range from 0.5 volts to 1.1 volts at idle and 2.5 volts to 4.5 volts at wide-open-throttle (WOT). The second sensor, ACCEL POS #2, delivers from 1.2 volts to 2.0 volts at idle and 3.4 volts to 5.0 volts at WOT. Why such a wide range of permissible voltages? The engine computer (ECM) recalibrates the sensor regularly, every time you start the car and the ECM goes through its power-on self-test.</p><p>

Both accelerator-pedal-position Hall-effect sensors have to agree fairly closely, or the ECM will go into its limp-home mode, which turns on the Check Engine light and sets a trouble code. </p><p>There's more. If Toyota's engine-management scheme is anything like that of most other car companies, firmware inside the ECM also monitors the airflow into the engine, the throttle blade position and engine rpm, and calculates backwards to what the throttle pedal position should be. Any discrepancy, and a trouble code is set, the Check Engine light on the dash goes on, and you're dialing the service manager to make an appointment. </p><p>
Bottom line: The system is not only redundant, it's double-redundant. The signal lines from the pedal to the ECM are isolated. The voltages used in the system are DC voltages&mdash;any RF voltages introduced into the system, by, say, that microwave oven you have in the passenger seat, would be AC voltages, which the ECM's conditioned inputs would simply ignore. Neither your cellphone nor Johnny's PlayStation have the power to induce much confusion into the system. </p><p>
These throttle-by-wire systems are very difficult to confuse&mdash;they're designed to be robust, and any conceivable failure is engineered to command not an open throttle but an error message. </p></div><p> <a href="http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how\_to/4347704.html" title="popularmechanics.com">http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how\_to/4347704.html</a> [popularmechanics.com]</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Like many onboard automobile sensors , they are also completely isolated from the vehicle ground .
To reduce the potential for interference or mistakes , they operate at different voltages .
The first sensor , known as ACCEL POS # 1 , has a nominal voltage range from 0.5 volts to 1.1 volts at idle and 2.5 volts to 4.5 volts at wide-open-throttle ( WOT ) .
The second sensor , ACCEL POS # 2 , delivers from 1.2 volts to 2.0 volts at idle and 3.4 volts to 5.0 volts at WOT .
Why such a wide range of permissible voltages ?
The engine computer ( ECM ) recalibrates the sensor regularly , every time you start the car and the ECM goes through its power-on self-test .
Both accelerator-pedal-position Hall-effect sensors have to agree fairly closely , or the ECM will go into its limp-home mode , which turns on the Check Engine light and sets a trouble code .
There 's more .
If Toyota 's engine-management scheme is anything like that of most other car companies , firmware inside the ECM also monitors the airflow into the engine , the throttle blade position and engine rpm , and calculates backwards to what the throttle pedal position should be .
Any discrepancy , and a trouble code is set , the Check Engine light on the dash goes on , and you 're dialing the service manager to make an appointment .
Bottom line : The system is not only redundant , it 's double-redundant .
The signal lines from the pedal to the ECM are isolated .
The voltages used in the system are DC voltages    any RF voltages introduced into the system , by , say , that microwave oven you have in the passenger seat , would be AC voltages , which the ECM 's conditioned inputs would simply ignore .
Neither your cellphone nor Johnny 's PlayStation have the power to induce much confusion into the system .
These throttle-by-wire systems are very difficult to confuse    they 're designed to be robust , and any conceivable failure is engineered to command not an open throttle but an error message .
http : //www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how \ _to/4347704.html [ popularmechanics.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Like many onboard automobile sensors, they are also completely isolated from the vehicle ground.
To reduce the potential for interference or mistakes, they operate at different voltages.
The first sensor, known as ACCEL POS #1, has a nominal voltage range from 0.5 volts to 1.1 volts at idle and 2.5 volts to 4.5 volts at wide-open-throttle (WOT).
The second sensor, ACCEL POS #2, delivers from 1.2 volts to 2.0 volts at idle and 3.4 volts to 5.0 volts at WOT.
Why such a wide range of permissible voltages?
The engine computer (ECM) recalibrates the sensor regularly, every time you start the car and the ECM goes through its power-on self-test.
Both accelerator-pedal-position Hall-effect sensors have to agree fairly closely, or the ECM will go into its limp-home mode, which turns on the Check Engine light and sets a trouble code.
There's more.
If Toyota's engine-management scheme is anything like that of most other car companies, firmware inside the ECM also monitors the airflow into the engine, the throttle blade position and engine rpm, and calculates backwards to what the throttle pedal position should be.
Any discrepancy, and a trouble code is set, the Check Engine light on the dash goes on, and you're dialing the service manager to make an appointment.
Bottom line: The system is not only redundant, it's double-redundant.
The signal lines from the pedal to the ECM are isolated.
The voltages used in the system are DC voltages—any RF voltages introduced into the system, by, say, that microwave oven you have in the passenger seat, would be AC voltages, which the ECM's conditioned inputs would simply ignore.
Neither your cellphone nor Johnny's PlayStation have the power to induce much confusion into the system.
These throttle-by-wire systems are very difficult to confuse—they're designed to be robust, and any conceivable failure is engineered to command not an open throttle but an error message.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how\_to/4347704.html [popularmechanics.com]
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344144</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31353940</id>
	<title>Re:What's with these drive by wire cars?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267631940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>But seriously, when's the last time FAA like standards and reviews have been applied to those that are ASE certified? When's the last time the state inspected my vehicle for anything other than an emissions check?</p><p>The thing is, would I rather trust having my life on the line for an 18 guage wire that I could easily cut with a fingernail clipper or a hard steel mechanical linkage that would take about 5-10 minutes to cut in half with an air grinder? Also consider the fact of failure modes in cars. When something electrical goes, it usually goes without prior warning. And it may not be the wire, a loose or faulty connector can be just as bad. And you get intermittent failures that can be difficult to find and trace out. More often then not when something mechanical gets to the point where it needs replacement, the wear and tear becomes obvious fairly obvious and gives fair warning. Usually if and when it gets to the point of failure, other aspects of the vehicle are showing obvious signs of neglect too. (Although some people still manage to drive cars that literally fall apart on the road, most have enough sense or money not to.)</p><p>Not that drive by wire can't be safe, but until land vehicles are held to the same rigorous inspection schedule and maintenance standards as aircraft, I still feel it's quite sane to question if drive-by-wire is as reliable as tried and tested mechanical systems.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>But seriously , when 's the last time FAA like standards and reviews have been applied to those that are ASE certified ?
When 's the last time the state inspected my vehicle for anything other than an emissions check ? The thing is , would I rather trust having my life on the line for an 18 guage wire that I could easily cut with a fingernail clipper or a hard steel mechanical linkage that would take about 5-10 minutes to cut in half with an air grinder ?
Also consider the fact of failure modes in cars .
When something electrical goes , it usually goes without prior warning .
And it may not be the wire , a loose or faulty connector can be just as bad .
And you get intermittent failures that can be difficult to find and trace out .
More often then not when something mechanical gets to the point where it needs replacement , the wear and tear becomes obvious fairly obvious and gives fair warning .
Usually if and when it gets to the point of failure , other aspects of the vehicle are showing obvious signs of neglect too .
( Although some people still manage to drive cars that literally fall apart on the road , most have enough sense or money not to .
) Not that drive by wire ca n't be safe , but until land vehicles are held to the same rigorous inspection schedule and maintenance standards as aircraft , I still feel it 's quite sane to question if drive-by-wire is as reliable as tried and tested mechanical systems .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But seriously, when's the last time FAA like standards and reviews have been applied to those that are ASE certified?
When's the last time the state inspected my vehicle for anything other than an emissions check?The thing is, would I rather trust having my life on the line for an 18 guage wire that I could easily cut with a fingernail clipper or a hard steel mechanical linkage that would take about 5-10 minutes to cut in half with an air grinder?
Also consider the fact of failure modes in cars.
When something electrical goes, it usually goes without prior warning.
And it may not be the wire, a loose or faulty connector can be just as bad.
And you get intermittent failures that can be difficult to find and trace out.
More often then not when something mechanical gets to the point where it needs replacement, the wear and tear becomes obvious fairly obvious and gives fair warning.
Usually if and when it gets to the point of failure, other aspects of the vehicle are showing obvious signs of neglect too.
(Although some people still manage to drive cars that literally fall apart on the road, most have enough sense or money not to.
)Not that drive by wire can't be safe, but until land vehicles are held to the same rigorous inspection schedule and maintenance standards as aircraft, I still feel it's quite sane to question if drive-by-wire is as reliable as tried and tested mechanical systems.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342000</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342086</id>
	<title>Re:Misleading summary</title>
	<author>schreiend</author>
	<datestamp>1267608540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>So the solution isn't that simple.</p></div><p>Maybe it is: Brake Assist, that works like you've described: analyzing rates pedal are being operated with, current vehicle speed, etc. I just wonder if BAS cuts off gas line in case of emergency braking.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>So the solution is n't that simple.Maybe it is : Brake Assist , that works like you 've described : analyzing rates pedal are being operated with , current vehicle speed , etc .
I just wonder if BAS cuts off gas line in case of emergency braking .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So the solution isn't that simple.Maybe it is: Brake Assist, that works like you've described: analyzing rates pedal are being operated with, current vehicle speed, etc.
I just wonder if BAS cuts off gas line in case of emergency braking.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341822</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342108</id>
	<title>Re:Idiocy.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267608720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>People testified that they tried this, tried being the imperative word. I've heard comments that given the layout of the gear shift it's possible to go into the "manual shift" mode when trying to get into "neutral."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>People testified that they tried this , tried being the imperative word .
I 've heard comments that given the layout of the gear shift it 's possible to go into the " manual shift " mode when trying to get into " neutral .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>People testified that they tried this, tried being the imperative word.
I've heard comments that given the layout of the gear shift it's possible to go into the "manual shift" mode when trying to get into "neutral.
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341764</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31346768</id>
	<title>Re:Kill Switch?</title>
	<author>ElmoGonzo</author>
	<datestamp>1267637220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think it started as an attempt to continuously monitor air-fuel ratios to improve efficiency and reduce pollution from unburned hydrocarbons.  But now that everyone has to talk on the phone when they're driving, the car needs to do more and more for them.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think it started as an attempt to continuously monitor air-fuel ratios to improve efficiency and reduce pollution from unburned hydrocarbons .
But now that everyone has to talk on the phone when they 're driving , the car needs to do more and more for them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think it started as an attempt to continuously monitor air-fuel ratios to improve efficiency and reduce pollution from unburned hydrocarbons.
But now that everyone has to talk on the phone when they're driving, the car needs to do more and more for them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342026</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342232</id>
	<title>Re:Misleading summary</title>
	<author>u38cg</author>
	<datestamp>1267610280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Personally, I'd prefer they got the damned system right in the first place.  We've known how to do error free software for safety critical applications for a long, long time.  We can do this shit for aircraft, why the hell can't we do it for vehicles?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Personally , I 'd prefer they got the damned system right in the first place .
We 've known how to do error free software for safety critical applications for a long , long time .
We can do this shit for aircraft , why the hell ca n't we do it for vehicles ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Personally, I'd prefer they got the damned system right in the first place.
We've known how to do error free software for safety critical applications for a long, long time.
We can do this shit for aircraft, why the hell can't we do it for vehicles?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341822</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342506</id>
	<title>Re:You can NOT "just put it in neutral"...</title>
	<author>Fex303</author>
	<datestamp>1267612440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>For the millionth time, you CAN put these cars into neutral at speed. I've personally done so.</p></div><p>...And releasing the accelerator will mean the engine car slows down.  I've personally done that.</p><p>Since the car's electronics are malfunctioning, I think that assuming that the various systems controlled by the electronics would work as usual is making a rather large assumption.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>For the millionth time , you CAN put these cars into neutral at speed .
I 've personally done so....And releasing the accelerator will mean the engine car slows down .
I 've personally done that.Since the car 's electronics are malfunctioning , I think that assuming that the various systems controlled by the electronics would work as usual is making a rather large assumption .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For the millionth time, you CAN put these cars into neutral at speed.
I've personally done so....And releasing the accelerator will mean the engine car slows down.
I've personally done that.Since the car's electronics are malfunctioning, I think that assuming that the various systems controlled by the electronics would work as usual is making a rather large assumption.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31354328</id>
	<title>Re:Me thinks</title>
	<author>Tacticus.v1</author>
	<datestamp>1267636020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I can drive and prefer brakes that don't lock up (though i agree that they should be strong enough to lock up), providing the most braking power (also newer abs systems are awesome (especially when driving on mixed surfaces))</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I can drive and prefer brakes that do n't lock up ( though i agree that they should be strong enough to lock up ) , providing the most braking power ( also newer abs systems are awesome ( especially when driving on mixed surfaces ) )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can drive and prefer brakes that don't lock up (though i agree that they should be strong enough to lock up), providing the most braking power (also newer abs systems are awesome (especially when driving on mixed surfaces))</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342430</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342026</id>
	<title>Kill Switch?</title>
	<author>Leo Sasquatch</author>
	<datestamp>1267608120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>Every motorcycle I've seen made in the last 30 years has had a kill switch on the handlebars.  It just shuts down the bike's entire electrical system and stops the engine.  It's intended as a safety feature if you're in a situation where you don't want to have to take your hands off the controls to reach the key.  Also, as I understand it, if the bike's crashed, but the throttle's wedged on, all you have to do is hit the Big Red Switch, rather than trying to reach the key while the bike's hopping around because the rear wheel's making intermittent contact with the tarmac.
<br> <br>
Seriously - an Off switch within emergency reach of the driver - how complex a concept is that?
<br> <br>
OTOH, what are these cars doing with such massive embedded systems in them?  I've seen numbers in the tens of millions of lines of computer code being bandied around as indicators of their size and complexity - WTF does a *car* need all that computing power for?  I've driven dozens of cars without a single microchip in them - they started, they stopped, they did everything you'd reasonably expect a piece of personal transport to do.  What does adding all that complexity get you, apart from a car only officially licenced and approved dealers can work on because nobody else has the diagnostic software...?  Oh wait...
<br> <br>
Never mind.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Every motorcycle I 've seen made in the last 30 years has had a kill switch on the handlebars .
It just shuts down the bike 's entire electrical system and stops the engine .
It 's intended as a safety feature if you 're in a situation where you do n't want to have to take your hands off the controls to reach the key .
Also , as I understand it , if the bike 's crashed , but the throttle 's wedged on , all you have to do is hit the Big Red Switch , rather than trying to reach the key while the bike 's hopping around because the rear wheel 's making intermittent contact with the tarmac .
Seriously - an Off switch within emergency reach of the driver - how complex a concept is that ?
OTOH , what are these cars doing with such massive embedded systems in them ?
I 've seen numbers in the tens of millions of lines of computer code being bandied around as indicators of their size and complexity - WTF does a * car * need all that computing power for ?
I 've driven dozens of cars without a single microchip in them - they started , they stopped , they did everything you 'd reasonably expect a piece of personal transport to do .
What does adding all that complexity get you , apart from a car only officially licenced and approved dealers can work on because nobody else has the diagnostic software... ?
Oh wait.. . Never mind .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Every motorcycle I've seen made in the last 30 years has had a kill switch on the handlebars.
It just shuts down the bike's entire electrical system and stops the engine.
It's intended as a safety feature if you're in a situation where you don't want to have to take your hands off the controls to reach the key.
Also, as I understand it, if the bike's crashed, but the throttle's wedged on, all you have to do is hit the Big Red Switch, rather than trying to reach the key while the bike's hopping around because the rear wheel's making intermittent contact with the tarmac.
Seriously - an Off switch within emergency reach of the driver - how complex a concept is that?
OTOH, what are these cars doing with such massive embedded systems in them?
I've seen numbers in the tens of millions of lines of computer code being bandied around as indicators of their size and complexity - WTF does a *car* need all that computing power for?
I've driven dozens of cars without a single microchip in them - they started, they stopped, they did everything you'd reasonably expect a piece of personal transport to do.
What does adding all that complexity get you, apart from a car only officially licenced and approved dealers can work on because nobody else has the diagnostic software...?
Oh wait...
 
Never mind.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342662</id>
	<title>Re:You can NOT "just put it in neutral"...</title>
	<author>nametaken</author>
	<datestamp>1267613700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Honest question, wouldn't doing this redline the engine?  I mean, it's better than a serious accident either way, but I'm just curious.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Honest question , would n't doing this redline the engine ?
I mean , it 's better than a serious accident either way , but I 'm just curious .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Honest question, wouldn't doing this redline the engine?
I mean, it's better than a serious accident either way, but I'm just curious.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341978</id>
	<title>Re:Turn the key off or put the car in neutral.....</title>
	<author>iangoldby</author>
	<datestamp>1267607820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Anybody who tried to turn the key off would have found themselves moving at highway speeds with dramatically decreased steering.</p></div></blockquote><p>Have you ever tried it? In any sane car (and I except 2 tonne SUV monstrosities) you don't need power steering to steer effectively except at very low speed.</p><p>Brakes might be more of an issue, but even after turning off the engine, there is usually enough stored potential energy in the servo reservoir for a minute or two of braking.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Anybody who tried to turn the key off would have found themselves moving at highway speeds with dramatically decreased steering.Have you ever tried it ?
In any sane car ( and I except 2 tonne SUV monstrosities ) you do n't need power steering to steer effectively except at very low speed.Brakes might be more of an issue , but even after turning off the engine , there is usually enough stored potential energy in the servo reservoir for a minute or two of braking .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Anybody who tried to turn the key off would have found themselves moving at highway speeds with dramatically decreased steering.Have you ever tried it?
In any sane car (and I except 2 tonne SUV monstrosities) you don't need power steering to steer effectively except at very low speed.Brakes might be more of an issue, but even after turning off the engine, there is usually enough stored potential energy in the servo reservoir for a minute or two of braking.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341912</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31346050</id>
	<title>Re:Hmmm....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267634040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It became popular because it offers increased control system flexibility, which translates into better fuel economy or performance (or even a bit of each) -- when it works right.</p><p>SSuggesting we ban it because it really goes in the crapper when something does go wrong would be  justification foir banning all diesels. I've never witnessed a runaway blow up, but it does happen. Cars with no throttle should be banned!</p><p>Of course, the ability to kill power  is alrerady there -- ignition swirtch much? it stops EFI, too! and brakes are still semi-mechanical on practically all vehicles. This is everything you need to control a vehicle with an acceleration glitch, provided you're paying attention and not tailogating.</p><p>I don't necessarily want it in my car -- I like running a touch closer to the metal, as a matter of taste and <i>enjoying</i> driving -- but you're fucking dumber than my spelling if you  can't figure out why it became popular notion.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It became popular because it offers increased control system flexibility , which translates into better fuel economy or performance ( or even a bit of each ) -- when it works right.SSuggesting we ban it because it really goes in the crapper when something does go wrong would be justification foir banning all diesels .
I 've never witnessed a runaway blow up , but it does happen .
Cars with no throttle should be banned ! Of course , the ability to kill power is alrerady there -- ignition swirtch much ?
it stops EFI , too !
and brakes are still semi-mechanical on practically all vehicles .
This is everything you need to control a vehicle with an acceleration glitch , provided you 're paying attention and not tailogating.I do n't necessarily want it in my car -- I like running a touch closer to the metal , as a matter of taste and enjoying driving -- but you 're fucking dumber than my spelling if you ca n't figure out why it became popular notion .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It became popular because it offers increased control system flexibility, which translates into better fuel economy or performance (or even a bit of each) -- when it works right.SSuggesting we ban it because it really goes in the crapper when something does go wrong would be  justification foir banning all diesels.
I've never witnessed a runaway blow up, but it does happen.
Cars with no throttle should be banned!Of course, the ability to kill power  is alrerady there -- ignition swirtch much?
it stops EFI, too!
and brakes are still semi-mechanical on practically all vehicles.
This is everything you need to control a vehicle with an acceleration glitch, provided you're paying attention and not tailogating.I don't necessarily want it in my car -- I like running a touch closer to the metal, as a matter of taste and enjoying driving -- but you're fucking dumber than my spelling if you  can't figure out why it became popular notion.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341660</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343042</id>
	<title>Re:Kill Switch?</title>
	<author>pev</author>
	<datestamp>1267617300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In motor racing, all cars are required to have a *mechanical* ignition kill-switch. It has a standard type, colour and positioning so no matter what car you're in you can instinctively find it.</p><p>Not a bad idea for all cars if you ask me<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-D</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In motor racing , all cars are required to have a * mechanical * ignition kill-switch .
It has a standard type , colour and positioning so no matter what car you 're in you can instinctively find it.Not a bad idea for all cars if you ask me : -D</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In motor racing, all cars are required to have a *mechanical* ignition kill-switch.
It has a standard type, colour and positioning so no matter what car you're in you can instinctively find it.Not a bad idea for all cars if you ask me :-D</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342026</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341964</id>
	<title>Re:You can NOT "just put it in neutral"...</title>
	<author>Mascot</author>
	<datestamp>1267607640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What you \_can\_ do, at least in the case of these Toyotas, is hit the brake. The sticky gas pedal on the Toyotas is a mechanical issue, not an electronic one, and pushing the brake real hard causes the electronics to cut the gas.</p><p>In other words, electronics saving you from mechanical failure.</p><p>Assuming the information sent from Toyota isn't a blatant lie, obviously.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What you \ _can \ _ do , at least in the case of these Toyotas , is hit the brake .
The sticky gas pedal on the Toyotas is a mechanical issue , not an electronic one , and pushing the brake real hard causes the electronics to cut the gas.In other words , electronics saving you from mechanical failure.Assuming the information sent from Toyota is n't a blatant lie , obviously .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What you \_can\_ do, at least in the case of these Toyotas, is hit the brake.
The sticky gas pedal on the Toyotas is a mechanical issue, not an electronic one, and pushing the brake real hard causes the electronics to cut the gas.In other words, electronics saving you from mechanical failure.Assuming the information sent from Toyota isn't a blatant lie, obviously.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341666</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345664</id>
	<title>Re:Requiring strong brakes?</title>
	<author>GooberToo</author>
	<datestamp>1267632360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I'm pretty sure that it's standard on all cars to have brakes that are more powerful than the engine.</p> </div><p>Every time this story keeps popping up, everyone keeps getting this detail wrong. The requirement exists for a vehicle at rest. Brakes must be able to prevent a vehicle from starting to roll at full throttle. The physics involved when a vehicle is traveling at 50-80 mph and at full throttle are completely different. On many vehicles the brakes can not stop a vehicle in this situation; which is completely different from holding a vehicle at rest.</p><p>Think about this people - you can still do burn outs in modern cars; its just a lot harder to get started and get right. I don't know why everyone keeps getting this soooooo wrong. Plus, if everything could be made right by simply pressing the brake peddle, chances are very high we wouldn't be reading about this problem today.</p><p>Sp please stop spreading this misinformation. It largely does not pertain to the greater context.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm pretty sure that it 's standard on all cars to have brakes that are more powerful than the engine .
Every time this story keeps popping up , everyone keeps getting this detail wrong .
The requirement exists for a vehicle at rest .
Brakes must be able to prevent a vehicle from starting to roll at full throttle .
The physics involved when a vehicle is traveling at 50-80 mph and at full throttle are completely different .
On many vehicles the brakes can not stop a vehicle in this situation ; which is completely different from holding a vehicle at rest.Think about this people - you can still do burn outs in modern cars ; its just a lot harder to get started and get right .
I do n't know why everyone keeps getting this soooooo wrong .
Plus , if everything could be made right by simply pressing the brake peddle , chances are very high we would n't be reading about this problem today.Sp please stop spreading this misinformation .
It largely does not pertain to the greater context .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm pretty sure that it's standard on all cars to have brakes that are more powerful than the engine.
Every time this story keeps popping up, everyone keeps getting this detail wrong.
The requirement exists for a vehicle at rest.
Brakes must be able to prevent a vehicle from starting to roll at full throttle.
The physics involved when a vehicle is traveling at 50-80 mph and at full throttle are completely different.
On many vehicles the brakes can not stop a vehicle in this situation; which is completely different from holding a vehicle at rest.Think about this people - you can still do burn outs in modern cars; its just a lot harder to get started and get right.
I don't know why everyone keeps getting this soooooo wrong.
Plus, if everything could be made right by simply pressing the brake peddle, chances are very high we wouldn't be reading about this problem today.Sp please stop spreading this misinformation.
It largely does not pertain to the greater context.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343758</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343120</id>
	<title>Re:Turn the key off or put the car in neutral.....</title>
	<author>Hognoxious</author>
	<datestamp>1267617960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Anybody who tried to turn the key off would have found themselves moving at highway speeds with dramatically decreased steering.</p></div></blockquote><p>Nonesense, there's enough pressure in the reservoir to keep the assistance going for long enough to come to a safe stop.</p><p>I've twice lost engine power at over 60 mph and I'm still here.</p><p>Also, the faster you're going, the lighter the steering is, even without power steering.  Unless you're making tight maneuvers at slow speeds you probably wouldn't even notice it was broken (again, speaking from experience).</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Anybody who tried to turn the key off would have found themselves moving at highway speeds with dramatically decreased steering.Nonesense , there 's enough pressure in the reservoir to keep the assistance going for long enough to come to a safe stop.I 've twice lost engine power at over 60 mph and I 'm still here.Also , the faster you 're going , the lighter the steering is , even without power steering .
Unless you 're making tight maneuvers at slow speeds you probably would n't even notice it was broken ( again , speaking from experience ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Anybody who tried to turn the key off would have found themselves moving at highway speeds with dramatically decreased steering.Nonesense, there's enough pressure in the reservoir to keep the assistance going for long enough to come to a safe stop.I've twice lost engine power at over 60 mph and I'm still here.Also, the faster you're going, the lighter the steering is, even without power steering.
Unless you're making tight maneuvers at slow speeds you probably wouldn't even notice it was broken (again, speaking from experience).
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341912</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345490</id>
	<title>Re:Kill Switch?</title>
	<author>dasunt</author>
	<datestamp>1267631820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>These things are really saving lives by not slamming into trees when your car would suddenly start spinning on a slippery surface, as it would when you did not have ESC installed.</p></div></blockquote><p>
Are they saving lives?  Or by making roads feel "safer", do drivers end up driving at higher speeds, negating the safety benefits?  Do drivers end up making other decisions that negatively impact their safety such as driving on worn tires instead of buying new tires appropriate to the conditions?
</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>These things are really saving lives by not slamming into trees when your car would suddenly start spinning on a slippery surface , as it would when you did not have ESC installed .
Are they saving lives ?
Or by making roads feel " safer " , do drivers end up driving at higher speeds , negating the safety benefits ?
Do drivers end up making other decisions that negatively impact their safety such as driving on worn tires instead of buying new tires appropriate to the conditions ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>These things are really saving lives by not slamming into trees when your car would suddenly start spinning on a slippery surface, as it would when you did not have ESC installed.
Are they saving lives?
Or by making roads feel "safer", do drivers end up driving at higher speeds, negating the safety benefits?
Do drivers end up making other decisions that negatively impact their safety such as driving on worn tires instead of buying new tires appropriate to the conditions?

	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342400</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344590</id>
	<title>I'm gonna go with...</title>
	<author>epp\_b</author>
	<datestamp>1267627620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>People who don't know how to put their transmissions in neutral.  Now, where's my prize money?</htmltext>
<tokenext>People who do n't know how to put their transmissions in neutral .
Now , where 's my prize money ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>People who don't know how to put their transmissions in neutral.
Now, where's my prize money?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345358</id>
	<title>If it's good enough for spaceships..</title>
	<author>History's Coming To</author>
	<datestamp>1267631220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>My money is on Modified Newtonian Dynamics...</htmltext>
<tokenext>My money is on Modified Newtonian Dynamics.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My money is on Modified Newtonian Dynamics...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341960</id>
	<title>Re:Misleading summary</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267607580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>At high brake pressures, and moving at high speeds, one would not be expect to continue to accelerate. At low to moderate pressures and being stationary or barely moving, engine power should not be cut off.</p></div><p>That would be great fun to debug, brake and accelerator both down at high speed, cuts off the engine, right up until you've almost stopped, then it revvs up again!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>At high brake pressures , and moving at high speeds , one would not be expect to continue to accelerate .
At low to moderate pressures and being stationary or barely moving , engine power should not be cut off.That would be great fun to debug , brake and accelerator both down at high speed , cuts off the engine , right up until you 've almost stopped , then it revvs up again !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At high brake pressures, and moving at high speeds, one would not be expect to continue to accelerate.
At low to moderate pressures and being stationary or barely moving, engine power should not be cut off.That would be great fun to debug, brake and accelerator both down at high speed, cuts off the engine, right up until you've almost stopped, then it revvs up again!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341822</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31346086</id>
	<title>Re:Hmmm....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267634220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've read some articles that indicate that mechanical linkage failure is actually more prevalent than drive by wire.  This is sort of like those that are scared of flying vs driving, because their feeling of control is less, they are afraid of flying despite any fair comparison of miles traveled showing flight to be far safer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've read some articles that indicate that mechanical linkage failure is actually more prevalent than drive by wire .
This is sort of like those that are scared of flying vs driving , because their feeling of control is less , they are afraid of flying despite any fair comparison of miles traveled showing flight to be far safer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've read some articles that indicate that mechanical linkage failure is actually more prevalent than drive by wire.
This is sort of like those that are scared of flying vs driving, because their feeling of control is less, they are afraid of flying despite any fair comparison of miles traveled showing flight to be far safer.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341660</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342332</id>
	<title>Re:And where is the source?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267611120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Perhaps the failsafe machanism that's supposed to do this doesn't work. It seems pointless to me to make this a law, considering the terrible publicity and huge financial losses these companies are suffering, don't you think they will do everything they can to prevent this from happening again.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Perhaps the failsafe machanism that 's supposed to do this does n't work .
It seems pointless to me to make this a law , considering the terrible publicity and huge financial losses these companies are suffering , do n't you think they will do everything they can to prevent this from happening again .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Perhaps the failsafe machanism that's supposed to do this doesn't work.
It seems pointless to me to make this a law, considering the terrible publicity and huge financial losses these companies are suffering, don't you think they will do everything they can to prevent this from happening again.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341842</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343158</id>
	<title>Re:Kill Switch?</title>
	<author>indiechild</author>
	<datestamp>1267618200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's probably all shitty unoptimised spaghetti code. It's what you get when you use Frontpage 97 to generate your code.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's probably all shitty unoptimised spaghetti code .
It 's what you get when you use Frontpage 97 to generate your code .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's probably all shitty unoptimised spaghetti code.
It's what you get when you use Frontpage 97 to generate your code.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342026</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344298</id>
	<title>Re:Solution</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267626180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>If it's in the US or other countries with "excessive litigation" problems, I would say that you could also disable the airbags, if mechanical problems are detected.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If it 's in the US or other countries with " excessive litigation " problems , I would say that you could also disable the airbags , if mechanical problems are detected .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If it's in the US or other countries with "excessive litigation" problems, I would say that you could also disable the airbags, if mechanical problems are detected.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343322</id>
	<title>Re:Turn the key off or put the car in neutral.....</title>
	<author>pipingguy</author>
	<datestamp>1267619940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Maybe people have been conditioned to panic rather than deal with problems.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe people have been conditioned to panic rather than deal with problems .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe people have been conditioned to panic rather than deal with problems.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341978</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341918</id>
	<title>Well, I have the solution...</title>
	<author>T-Bucket</author>
	<datestamp>1267607280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't know the cause, but to fix it, push down on that third pedal. It disconnects the engine from the wheels.</p><p>You don't have one?  Oh... Hmm... Evolution at work. Better luck next time!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't know the cause , but to fix it , push down on that third pedal .
It disconnects the engine from the wheels.You do n't have one ?
Oh... Hmm... Evolution at work .
Better luck next time !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't know the cause, but to fix it, push down on that third pedal.
It disconnects the engine from the wheels.You don't have one?
Oh... Hmm... Evolution at work.
Better luck next time!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344534</id>
	<title>Blame Rhea-M.</title>
	<author>Jaybird1981</author>
	<datestamp>1267627380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I figure its out there, floating in the distant recesses of space. and it somehow is only effecting certain types of toyota's and audi's. We've seen this in Maximum Overdrive people - the solution is simple! Blast it out of the sky!</htmltext>
<tokenext>I figure its out there , floating in the distant recesses of space .
and it somehow is only effecting certain types of toyota 's and audi 's .
We 've seen this in Maximum Overdrive people - the solution is simple !
Blast it out of the sky !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I figure its out there, floating in the distant recesses of space.
and it somehow is only effecting certain types of toyota's and audi's.
We've seen this in Maximum Overdrive people - the solution is simple!
Blast it out of the sky!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342490</id>
	<title>Re:I KNOW I KNOW GIMME GIMME</title>
	<author>julesh</author>
	<datestamp>1267612320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>I have a camry. Sometimes when I tap the accelerator after coasting or while stopped it unexpectedly accelerates harder than I expected despite pressing the pedal just a little bit, forcing me to take my foot off the pedal to avoid rear-ending the car in front of me.</i></p><p>Interesting.  Apparently most people get the opposite effect:</p><p><a href="http://www.autoblog.com/2006/10/17/camry-ecu-wont-let-drivers-give-it-the-boot/?CFID=8341797&amp;CFTOKEN=25439153" title="autoblog.com">http://www.autoblog.com/2006/10/17/camry-ecu-wont-let-drivers-give-it-the-boot/?CFID=8341797&amp;CFTOKEN=25439153</a> [autoblog.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have a camry .
Sometimes when I tap the accelerator after coasting or while stopped it unexpectedly accelerates harder than I expected despite pressing the pedal just a little bit , forcing me to take my foot off the pedal to avoid rear-ending the car in front of me.Interesting .
Apparently most people get the opposite effect : http : //www.autoblog.com/2006/10/17/camry-ecu-wont-let-drivers-give-it-the-boot/ ? CFID = 8341797&amp;CFTOKEN = 25439153 [ autoblog.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have a camry.
Sometimes when I tap the accelerator after coasting or while stopped it unexpectedly accelerates harder than I expected despite pressing the pedal just a little bit, forcing me to take my foot off the pedal to avoid rear-ending the car in front of me.Interesting.
Apparently most people get the opposite effect:http://www.autoblog.com/2006/10/17/camry-ecu-wont-let-drivers-give-it-the-boot/?CFID=8341797&amp;CFTOKEN=25439153 [autoblog.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341914</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341662</id>
	<title>The Chinese</title>
	<author>Lije Baley</author>
	<datestamp>1267648560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>May I be the first to point (and shake) the finger at the Chinese boogeyman.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>May I be the first to point ( and shake ) the finger at the Chinese boogeyman .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>May I be the first to point (and shake) the finger at the Chinese boogeyman.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342734</id>
	<title>Re:You can NOT "just put it in neutral"...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267614240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's not true. My landrover has an electrical lockout that prevents changing into nuteral whilst driving. I have tried it</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's not true .
My landrover has an electrical lockout that prevents changing into nuteral whilst driving .
I have tried it</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's not true.
My landrover has an electrical lockout that prevents changing into nuteral whilst driving.
I have tried it</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344304</id>
	<title>the cause</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267626240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My guess is that force caused the unintended acceleration.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My guess is that force caused the unintended acceleration .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My guess is that force caused the unintended acceleration.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345164</id>
	<title>Unintended acceleration</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267630380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Unintended acceleration is often caused by slipping or miscounting the number of steps on your ladder.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Unintended acceleration is often caused by slipping or miscounting the number of steps on your ladder .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unintended acceleration is often caused by slipping or miscounting the number of steps on your ladder.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342456</id>
	<title>Better Solution</title>
	<author>jamesh</author>
	<datestamp>1267611960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>We already have a solution - Cut the power when the break is pushed.</p></div><p>(copied from my previous post) An easy fix would be to have a 'dead' spot on the accelerator right at the end of the travel, so that the 'foot to the floor' situation would just result in the car idling, and it wouldn't accelerate again until the pedal was fully released. There would be an initial surge of acceleration if they did the accelerator-instead-of-brake trick, but as the driver panicked and pressed harder, they'd just go back to idle instead. To take the idea a bit further you might make the car brake instead of idle, but while it would be funny to watch, I suspect that that would cause more accidents than it would avoid.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>We already have a solution - Cut the power when the break is pushed .
( copied from my previous post ) An easy fix would be to have a 'dead ' spot on the accelerator right at the end of the travel , so that the 'foot to the floor ' situation would just result in the car idling , and it would n't accelerate again until the pedal was fully released .
There would be an initial surge of acceleration if they did the accelerator-instead-of-brake trick , but as the driver panicked and pressed harder , they 'd just go back to idle instead .
To take the idea a bit further you might make the car brake instead of idle , but while it would be funny to watch , I suspect that that would cause more accidents than it would avoid .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We already have a solution - Cut the power when the break is pushed.
(copied from my previous post) An easy fix would be to have a 'dead' spot on the accelerator right at the end of the travel, so that the 'foot to the floor' situation would just result in the car idling, and it wouldn't accelerate again until the pedal was fully released.
There would be an initial surge of acceleration if they did the accelerator-instead-of-brake trick, but as the driver panicked and pressed harder, they'd just go back to idle instead.
To take the idea a bit further you might make the car brake instead of idle, but while it would be funny to watch, I suspect that that would cause more accidents than it would avoid.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343844</id>
	<title>turn off the ignition</title>
	<author>random string of num</author>
	<datestamp>1267623480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I am pretty sure that turning the ignition key off would remove the power on most petrol cars, and thus reduce the acceleration, diesels are a bit different, and also if the brakes/steering are electrically actuated then your a bit screwed, but these things have mechanical backups right?

you know in most industries a nice hefty push button kill switch is located somewhere convenient, in-case things go a bit pair shaped.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I am pretty sure that turning the ignition key off would remove the power on most petrol cars , and thus reduce the acceleration , diesels are a bit different , and also if the brakes/steering are electrically actuated then your a bit screwed , but these things have mechanical backups right ?
you know in most industries a nice hefty push button kill switch is located somewhere convenient , in-case things go a bit pair shaped .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am pretty sure that turning the ignition key off would remove the power on most petrol cars, and thus reduce the acceleration, diesels are a bit different, and also if the brakes/steering are electrically actuated then your a bit screwed, but these things have mechanical backups right?
you know in most industries a nice hefty push button kill switch is located somewhere convenient, in-case things go a bit pair shaped.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31377292</id>
	<title>Re:Unnecessarily</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267795200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't I know it now.</p><p>Just "upgraded" from an old 2nd generation ford escort to newer ford focus.</p><p>Result...</p><p>Car is due for a bunch of maintenance service.  Should not be a big deal, right?  On the Escort I could do 80\% of the maintenance items easily myself with the help of just a repair manual and some tools, without the need of my own garage or driveway.  On the focus it seams as if almost every maintenance item will require a mechanic or for me to have my own private lift, garage, and oodles of time and money to work on it.</p><p>PCV valve replacement.</p><p>- Escort: right in front of engine head, just pull out of the connector and pull the valve off of the hose and install new one.<br>- Focus: raise and support car. Remove engine splash guard. Remove engine fans. Remove entire intake manifold. WTF.  Finally have access to PCV valve, from under car, and follow escort procedure.</p><p>Air filter.</p><p>- Escort: Pop open air box, swap filter, close air box.<br>- Focus: raise and support car.  Take off front driver side wheel!!!  Take off fender front wheel splash guard.  Unbolt air box from behind fender.  Remove air box from intake tube.  Unbolt open the air box to change filter.  WTF!!!  Oh wait, I've been blessed with the PZEV eco-friendly version of the car.  scratch that last part.  Change entire air box as filter and air box are one "lifetime" unit. Note: "lifetime" means 100k-150k miles.  A approximate $450 part mind you, not including labor nor a likely new use indicator that tracks the filters use and maybe related gaskets!!!  Probably needs to be done at the dealer too since most mechanics don't know this system too well and there may be other related parts that have to be changed.  Normal air filter about $7, so about $90, in $7 annual payments, over the approximately 13 years of service to reach 150k miles.  Labor free at many places since such a simple installation.  I could probably buy my old car for the price of the new eco-friendly filter and labor.</p><p>clean MAF sensor.</p><p>- Escort: pretty much follow procedure for the air filter since the MAF is just up the tube and spray MAF cleaner on the sensor.<br>- Focus: same as above except I get to keep my ultra expensive airbox.  Maybe change the PZEV air box gasket, an additional cost.  Lots of labor to spray a little MAF cleaner on a sensor.</p><p>flush cooling system.</p><p>- Escort: drain system.  remove thermostat, not super easy mind you especially since the bolts break easily in this part.  unhook hose into radiator.  hook up water hose to hose and flush away.  reinstall hose, thermostat and refill system.  Or just use a backflush kit that you can hook up to the heater outlet hose, no thermostat removal necessary.<br>- Focus: About the same as above, however the must easier and effective backflush kit is no longer feasible as the necessary outlet hose is way to low in the engine compartment.</p><p>Just some examples above.  Guess I won't be saving much money on common maintenance items on my new car.  All together I figure my 150k maintenance will run about 1k.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't I know it now.Just " upgraded " from an old 2nd generation ford escort to newer ford focus.Result...Car is due for a bunch of maintenance service .
Should not be a big deal , right ?
On the Escort I could do 80 \ % of the maintenance items easily myself with the help of just a repair manual and some tools , without the need of my own garage or driveway .
On the focus it seams as if almost every maintenance item will require a mechanic or for me to have my own private lift , garage , and oodles of time and money to work on it.PCV valve replacement.- Escort : right in front of engine head , just pull out of the connector and pull the valve off of the hose and install new one.- Focus : raise and support car .
Remove engine splash guard .
Remove engine fans .
Remove entire intake manifold .
WTF. Finally have access to PCV valve , from under car , and follow escort procedure.Air filter.- Escort : Pop open air box , swap filter , close air box.- Focus : raise and support car .
Take off front driver side wheel ! ! !
Take off fender front wheel splash guard .
Unbolt air box from behind fender .
Remove air box from intake tube .
Unbolt open the air box to change filter .
WTF ! ! ! Oh wait , I 've been blessed with the PZEV eco-friendly version of the car .
scratch that last part .
Change entire air box as filter and air box are one " lifetime " unit .
Note : " lifetime " means 100k-150k miles .
A approximate $ 450 part mind you , not including labor nor a likely new use indicator that tracks the filters use and maybe related gaskets ! ! !
Probably needs to be done at the dealer too since most mechanics do n't know this system too well and there may be other related parts that have to be changed .
Normal air filter about $ 7 , so about $ 90 , in $ 7 annual payments , over the approximately 13 years of service to reach 150k miles .
Labor free at many places since such a simple installation .
I could probably buy my old car for the price of the new eco-friendly filter and labor.clean MAF sensor.- Escort : pretty much follow procedure for the air filter since the MAF is just up the tube and spray MAF cleaner on the sensor.- Focus : same as above except I get to keep my ultra expensive airbox .
Maybe change the PZEV air box gasket , an additional cost .
Lots of labor to spray a little MAF cleaner on a sensor.flush cooling system.- Escort : drain system .
remove thermostat , not super easy mind you especially since the bolts break easily in this part .
unhook hose into radiator .
hook up water hose to hose and flush away .
reinstall hose , thermostat and refill system .
Or just use a backflush kit that you can hook up to the heater outlet hose , no thermostat removal necessary.- Focus : About the same as above , however the must easier and effective backflush kit is no longer feasible as the necessary outlet hose is way to low in the engine compartment.Just some examples above .
Guess I wo n't be saving much money on common maintenance items on my new car .
All together I figure my 150k maintenance will run about 1k .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't I know it now.Just "upgraded" from an old 2nd generation ford escort to newer ford focus.Result...Car is due for a bunch of maintenance service.
Should not be a big deal, right?
On the Escort I could do 80\% of the maintenance items easily myself with the help of just a repair manual and some tools, without the need of my own garage or driveway.
On the focus it seams as if almost every maintenance item will require a mechanic or for me to have my own private lift, garage, and oodles of time and money to work on it.PCV valve replacement.- Escort: right in front of engine head, just pull out of the connector and pull the valve off of the hose and install new one.- Focus: raise and support car.
Remove engine splash guard.
Remove engine fans.
Remove entire intake manifold.
WTF.  Finally have access to PCV valve, from under car, and follow escort procedure.Air filter.- Escort: Pop open air box, swap filter, close air box.- Focus: raise and support car.
Take off front driver side wheel!!!
Take off fender front wheel splash guard.
Unbolt air box from behind fender.
Remove air box from intake tube.
Unbolt open the air box to change filter.
WTF!!!  Oh wait, I've been blessed with the PZEV eco-friendly version of the car.
scratch that last part.
Change entire air box as filter and air box are one "lifetime" unit.
Note: "lifetime" means 100k-150k miles.
A approximate $450 part mind you, not including labor nor a likely new use indicator that tracks the filters use and maybe related gaskets!!!
Probably needs to be done at the dealer too since most mechanics don't know this system too well and there may be other related parts that have to be changed.
Normal air filter about $7, so about $90, in $7 annual payments, over the approximately 13 years of service to reach 150k miles.
Labor free at many places since such a simple installation.
I could probably buy my old car for the price of the new eco-friendly filter and labor.clean MAF sensor.- Escort: pretty much follow procedure for the air filter since the MAF is just up the tube and spray MAF cleaner on the sensor.- Focus: same as above except I get to keep my ultra expensive airbox.
Maybe change the PZEV air box gasket, an additional cost.
Lots of labor to spray a little MAF cleaner on a sensor.flush cooling system.- Escort: drain system.
remove thermostat, not super easy mind you especially since the bolts break easily in this part.
unhook hose into radiator.
hook up water hose to hose and flush away.
reinstall hose, thermostat and refill system.
Or just use a backflush kit that you can hook up to the heater outlet hose, no thermostat removal necessary.- Focus: About the same as above, however the must easier and effective backflush kit is no longer feasible as the necessary outlet hose is way to low in the engine compartment.Just some examples above.
Guess I won't be saving much money on common maintenance items on my new car.
All together I figure my 150k maintenance will run about 1k.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341632</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342044</id>
	<title>Brakes strong enough</title>
	<author>gnasher719</author>
	<datestamp>1267608240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Two or three years ago, when the first two cases were reported (strange enough two cases with the same car type in two weeks, and then nothing for years), a representative of Daimler Benz claimed that on \_all\_ cars the brakes are about FOUR times stronger than the engine. Including a 400 horse power Mercedes. The only problem is that you have to stop to a stand still \_immediately\_ because over time the brakes heat up and become useless. So stopping if your car starts accelerating from 70 miles is no problem. But if you try to keep it at 70 mph even though the engine tries to accelerate, you destroy the brakes in a short time.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Two or three years ago , when the first two cases were reported ( strange enough two cases with the same car type in two weeks , and then nothing for years ) , a representative of Daimler Benz claimed that on \ _all \ _ cars the brakes are about FOUR times stronger than the engine .
Including a 400 horse power Mercedes .
The only problem is that you have to stop to a stand still \ _immediately \ _ because over time the brakes heat up and become useless .
So stopping if your car starts accelerating from 70 miles is no problem .
But if you try to keep it at 70 mph even though the engine tries to accelerate , you destroy the brakes in a short time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Two or three years ago, when the first two cases were reported (strange enough two cases with the same car type in two weeks, and then nothing for years), a representative of Daimler Benz claimed that on \_all\_ cars the brakes are about FOUR times stronger than the engine.
Including a 400 horse power Mercedes.
The only problem is that you have to stop to a stand still \_immediately\_ because over time the brakes heat up and become useless.
So stopping if your car starts accelerating from 70 miles is no problem.
But if you try to keep it at 70 mph even though the engine tries to accelerate, you destroy the brakes in a short time.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345306</id>
	<title>All your base are belong to us</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267631040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What about the TPS? or the ECU?<br>Is there a stepper motor that controls the throttle body?<br>If the ECU hit a fault it could somehow open the stepper motor and cause unwanted acceleration...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What about the TPS ?
or the ECU ? Is there a stepper motor that controls the throttle body ? If the ECU hit a fault it could somehow open the stepper motor and cause unwanted acceleration.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What about the TPS?
or the ECU?Is there a stepper motor that controls the throttle body?If the ECU hit a fault it could somehow open the stepper motor and cause unwanted acceleration...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341820</id>
	<title>AWESOME CONTEST!!!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267649820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'd love to take a shot at the prize money. Now, will Toyota kindly release the source code to their electronic throttle systems? <br>  <br> 
 What was that? No? <br>  <br>  Didn't think so.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd love to take a shot at the prize money .
Now , will Toyota kindly release the source code to their electronic throttle systems ?
What was that ?
No ? Did n't think so .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd love to take a shot at the prize money.
Now, will Toyota kindly release the source code to their electronic throttle systems?
What was that?
No?     Didn't think so.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344144</id>
	<title>Re:AWESOME CONTEST!!!</title>
	<author>Fahrvergnuugen</author>
	<datestamp>1267625460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would be more interested in seeing the wiring diagram. My guess is that there is no redundancy in the throttle position system and it's not closed loop. There should be 4 throttle position switches, 2 in the gas pedal and 2 on the throttle body. The ECU should do a consistency check between the 2 signals coming from the pedal and a check between the 2 signals coming from the throttle body. If it detects two different signals coming from the pedal, or two different signals coming from the throttle body, it should go into limp mode.</p><p>This is how all VAG (Volkswagen Audi Group) cars are designed.</p><p>From what I have read, the Toyotas work on the honor system. The ECU trusts the signal coming from the pedal with no way of knowing if the signal was generated by a short circuit, interference, etc.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would be more interested in seeing the wiring diagram .
My guess is that there is no redundancy in the throttle position system and it 's not closed loop .
There should be 4 throttle position switches , 2 in the gas pedal and 2 on the throttle body .
The ECU should do a consistency check between the 2 signals coming from the pedal and a check between the 2 signals coming from the throttle body .
If it detects two different signals coming from the pedal , or two different signals coming from the throttle body , it should go into limp mode.This is how all VAG ( Volkswagen Audi Group ) cars are designed.From what I have read , the Toyotas work on the honor system .
The ECU trusts the signal coming from the pedal with no way of knowing if the signal was generated by a short circuit , interference , etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would be more interested in seeing the wiring diagram.
My guess is that there is no redundancy in the throttle position system and it's not closed loop.
There should be 4 throttle position switches, 2 in the gas pedal and 2 on the throttle body.
The ECU should do a consistency check between the 2 signals coming from the pedal and a check between the 2 signals coming from the throttle body.
If it detects two different signals coming from the pedal, or two different signals coming from the throttle body, it should go into limp mode.This is how all VAG (Volkswagen Audi Group) cars are designed.From what I have read, the Toyotas work on the honor system.
The ECU trusts the signal coming from the pedal with no way of knowing if the signal was generated by a short circuit, interference, etc.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341820</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342590</id>
	<title>Re:Hmmm....</title>
	<author>Tromad</author>
	<datestamp>1267613040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have a 96 Toyota, they went to drive by wire because their throttle cables we're junk, I've had to continuously fix and twice replace mine on my tacoma. At least that problem was deceleration.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have a 96 Toyota , they went to drive by wire because their throttle cables we 're junk , I 've had to continuously fix and twice replace mine on my tacoma .
At least that problem was deceleration .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have a 96 Toyota, they went to drive by wire because their throttle cables we're junk, I've had to continuously fix and twice replace mine on my tacoma.
At least that problem was deceleration.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341660</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342122</id>
	<title>Steve Wozniak Already Knows</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267608840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's the <a href="http://articles.latimes.com/2010/feb/03/business/la-fi-toyota-wozniak3-2010feb03" title="latimes.com" rel="nofollow">cruise control software</a> [latimes.com]. Pay the man his one million, please. Not that he needs the money, mind you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's the cruise control software [ latimes.com ] .
Pay the man his one million , please .
Not that he needs the money , mind you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's the cruise control software [latimes.com].
Pay the man his one million, please.
Not that he needs the money, mind you.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345096</id>
	<title>Re:Turn the key off or put the car in neutral.....</title>
	<author>mrboyd</author>
	<datestamp>1267630020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Even my SUV monstrosity drives fine without steering assistance. At highway speed you barely need to turn the wheel anyway and the effort would on par with holding a glass of water as opposed to driving with the pinkie.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Even my SUV monstrosity drives fine without steering assistance .
At highway speed you barely need to turn the wheel anyway and the effort would on par with holding a glass of water as opposed to driving with the pinkie .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Even my SUV monstrosity drives fine without steering assistance.
At highway speed you barely need to turn the wheel anyway and the effort would on par with holding a glass of water as opposed to driving with the pinkie.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341978</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341696</id>
	<title>Solution</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267648920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We already have a solution - Cut the power when the break is pushed.</p><p>What I struggle to understand is why this isn't a legal requirement on all new drive-by-wire cars?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We already have a solution - Cut the power when the break is pushed.What I struggle to understand is why this is n't a legal requirement on all new drive-by-wire cars ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We already have a solution - Cut the power when the break is pushed.What I struggle to understand is why this isn't a legal requirement on all new drive-by-wire cars?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341628</id>
	<title>It's easy to stop a car.</title>
	<author>jack2000</author>
	<datestamp>1267648380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Here it is: Jam the front and rear axles!
and if that doesn't work, eject the axles so the car slides with all it's underframe on the road for a while...</htmltext>
<tokenext>Here it is : Jam the front and rear axles !
and if that does n't work , eject the axles so the car slides with all it 's underframe on the road for a while.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here it is: Jam the front and rear axles!
and if that doesn't work, eject the axles so the car slides with all it's underframe on the road for a while...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31350076</id>
	<title>Re:I KNOW I KNOW GIMME GIMME</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267609140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think your salesman lied about the neural network thing.  Did he know you have any interest in computers or the related at all?  If so, you can bet he made that shit up.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think your salesman lied about the neural network thing .
Did he know you have any interest in computers or the related at all ?
If so , you can bet he made that shit up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think your salesman lied about the neural network thing.
Did he know you have any interest in computers or the related at all?
If so, you can bet he made that shit up.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341914</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341764</id>
	<title>Re:Idiocy.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267649460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As someone else said, shifting just sends a signal to the transmission. You're not directly controlling any gears. The transmission won't go into neutral or reverse at a high speed probably because of safety protocols in the software. The people that testified said they tried exactly this and it didn't stop the acceleration.</p><p>So you could argue that the software should allow this and let the engine rev and let whatever happen.</p><p>-John</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As someone else said , shifting just sends a signal to the transmission .
You 're not directly controlling any gears .
The transmission wo n't go into neutral or reverse at a high speed probably because of safety protocols in the software .
The people that testified said they tried exactly this and it did n't stop the acceleration.So you could argue that the software should allow this and let the engine rev and let whatever happen.-John</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As someone else said, shifting just sends a signal to the transmission.
You're not directly controlling any gears.
The transmission won't go into neutral or reverse at a high speed probably because of safety protocols in the software.
The people that testified said they tried exactly this and it didn't stop the acceleration.So you could argue that the software should allow this and let the engine rev and let whatever happen.-John</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341722</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343776</id>
	<title>of course!</title>
	<author>jarden\_from\_cerberus</author>
	<datestamp>1267623000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>What Toyota engineers should be looking for in their code sounds is a <i>race condition</i>.</htmltext>
<tokenext>What Toyota engineers should be looking for in their code sounds is a race condition .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What Toyota engineers should be looking for in their code sounds is a race condition.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345210</id>
	<title>Re:All cars already have this system</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267630620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Amen. Shifting to neutral is something any driver's education class should teach in the event of a runaway car, break failure, throttle issue etc.  For many, especially Toyota, Audi, and other drive-by-wire car owners, practicing this tactic could be a lifesaver.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Amen .
Shifting to neutral is something any driver 's education class should teach in the event of a runaway car , break failure , throttle issue etc .
For many , especially Toyota , Audi , and other drive-by-wire car owners , practicing this tactic could be a lifesaver .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Amen.
Shifting to neutral is something any driver's education class should teach in the event of a runaway car, break failure, throttle issue etc.
For many, especially Toyota, Audi, and other drive-by-wire car owners, practicing this tactic could be a lifesaver.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341790</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343116</id>
	<title>Re:Idiocy.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267617900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This mob actually tested it out for real and claim they were able to shift into neutral:<br><a href="http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how\_to\_deal\_with\_unintended\_acceleration-tech\_dept" title="caranddriver.com">http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how\_to\_deal\_with\_unintended\_acceleration-tech\_dept</a> [caranddriver.com]</p><p>Who do you believe? I believe the mob who tested it out for themselves.</p><p>Oh, and they also managed to apply the brakes too.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This mob actually tested it out for real and claim they were able to shift into neutral : http : //www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how \ _to \ _deal \ _with \ _unintended \ _acceleration-tech \ _dept [ caranddriver.com ] Who do you believe ?
I believe the mob who tested it out for themselves.Oh , and they also managed to apply the brakes too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This mob actually tested it out for real and claim they were able to shift into neutral:http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how\_to\_deal\_with\_unintended\_acceleration-tech\_dept [caranddriver.com]Who do you believe?
I believe the mob who tested it out for themselves.Oh, and they also managed to apply the brakes too.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341764</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342868</id>
	<title>Re:Turn the key off or put the car in neutral.....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267615740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There's a bigger problem than losing power steering when you turn the key. Many cars lock the steering wheel when the car is off, as an anti-theft measusure.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's a bigger problem than losing power steering when you turn the key .
Many cars lock the steering wheel when the car is off , as an anti-theft measusure .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's a bigger problem than losing power steering when you turn the key.
Many cars lock the steering wheel when the car is off, as an anti-theft measusure.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341978</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31346110</id>
	<title>What BS</title>
	<author>hesaigo999ca</author>
	<datestamp>1267634340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The website is sort of flaky, not even having a real setup yet for this contest, or whatever, and very unclear too about what the rules are (right now, none) as well, what are you supposed to describe, the problem toyota had or the problem that people complain about the pedal getting stuck or what???</p><p>Talk about just getting people to go on your website for no reason, other then maybe to download the latest malware....???</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The website is sort of flaky , not even having a real setup yet for this contest , or whatever , and very unclear too about what the rules are ( right now , none ) as well , what are you supposed to describe , the problem toyota had or the problem that people complain about the pedal getting stuck or what ? ?
? Talk about just getting people to go on your website for no reason , other then maybe to download the latest malware.... ? ?
?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The website is sort of flaky, not even having a real setup yet for this contest, or whatever, and very unclear too about what the rules are (right now, none) as well, what are you supposed to describe, the problem toyota had or the problem that people complain about the pedal getting stuck or what??
?Talk about just getting people to go on your website for no reason, other then maybe to download the latest malware....??
?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342280</id>
	<title>Re:Hmmm....</title>
	<author>NoMaster</author>
	<datestamp>1267610640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>How about some sort of a mechanical linkage between the throttle body and the pedal....oh wait...where have I seen this before?</p></div></blockquote><p>It still happens with a mechanical throttle though<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... twice, to me.</p><p>First time was when the clip holding the outer at the carbie fractured; the outer pushed forwards into the throttle arm and opened it all the way <i>when I lifted my foot off the accelerator</i>. The second was a worn and frayed inner; it jammed when I accelerated away from an intersection. Both happened on the same stretch of road, oddly enough.</p><p>The lesson is this: shit happens; understand what you're doing well enough to <i>automatically</i> know your options when it does; and have the presence of mind to use them. Though, given that most people seem to drive around in some sort of daze or torpor where they don't even know what they're doing until <i>after</i> they start doing it, I doubt they think any further ahead than -0.5 seconds...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>How about some sort of a mechanical linkage between the throttle body and the pedal....oh wait...where have I seen this before ? It still happens with a mechanical throttle though ... twice , to me.First time was when the clip holding the outer at the carbie fractured ; the outer pushed forwards into the throttle arm and opened it all the way when I lifted my foot off the accelerator .
The second was a worn and frayed inner ; it jammed when I accelerated away from an intersection .
Both happened on the same stretch of road , oddly enough.The lesson is this : shit happens ; understand what you 're doing well enough to automatically know your options when it does ; and have the presence of mind to use them .
Though , given that most people seem to drive around in some sort of daze or torpor where they do n't even know what they 're doing until after they start doing it , I doubt they think any further ahead than -0.5 seconds.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about some sort of a mechanical linkage between the throttle body and the pedal....oh wait...where have I seen this before?It still happens with a mechanical throttle though ... twice, to me.First time was when the clip holding the outer at the carbie fractured; the outer pushed forwards into the throttle arm and opened it all the way when I lifted my foot off the accelerator.
The second was a worn and frayed inner; it jammed when I accelerated away from an intersection.
Both happened on the same stretch of road, oddly enough.The lesson is this: shit happens; understand what you're doing well enough to automatically know your options when it does; and have the presence of mind to use them.
Though, given that most people seem to drive around in some sort of daze or torpor where they don't even know what they're doing until after they start doing it, I doubt they think any further ahead than -0.5 seconds...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341660</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342156</id>
	<title>Re:Solution</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267609200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What's wrong with a clutch? Or putting it in neutral for an automatic gearbox?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What 's wrong with a clutch ?
Or putting it in neutral for an automatic gearbox ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What's wrong with a clutch?
Or putting it in neutral for an automatic gearbox?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342372</id>
	<title>Re:Turn the key off or put the car in neutral.....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267611420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"dramatically decreased steering".....agreed....my steering column locks when i turn my car off....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" dramatically decreased steering " .....agreed....my steering column locks when i turn my car off... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"dramatically decreased steering".....agreed....my steering column locks when i turn my car off....</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341912</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341558</id>
	<title>Me thinks</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267647900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>.. the problem is between the pedals and the seat, morons.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>.. the problem is between the pedals and the seat , morons .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>.. the problem is between the pedals and the seat, morons.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31347990</id>
	<title>Re:Better Solution</title>
	<author>david\_thornley</author>
	<datestamp>1267642560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
And, just like your previous post, it's a stupid idea.  If I'm in an emergency, the last thing I want is to have to figure out how to control the car.  That's the advantage of ABS:  I just floor the brakes and don't think about them.  I just steer, observe, and try to figure out what to do next (last time I needed to do that, I steered to where there was more traction).  If I happen to need acceleration, I want to floor the accelerator and not think about it.  I don't need additional cognitive load when things are going wrong.
</p><p>
Besides, this only solves the "hit the wrong pedal" problem, which isn't what we're talking about there.
</p><p>
If you do want to solve the "hit the wrong pedal" problem, separate the functions.  Don't have one go pedal and one stop pedal right next to each other.  Put the brake controls on the steering wheel, easy to operate (maybe squeeze to stop).  That gives the added advantage of a significant speed-up in applying the brakes, since nerve impulses travel faster to hands than feet, and at freeway speeds a tenth of a second is a touch under nine feet (call it about 270cm for you metric guys).  There's probably things wrong with that idea, but you really do need to have different and not almost identical controls if you're afraid of confusing them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And , just like your previous post , it 's a stupid idea .
If I 'm in an emergency , the last thing I want is to have to figure out how to control the car .
That 's the advantage of ABS : I just floor the brakes and do n't think about them .
I just steer , observe , and try to figure out what to do next ( last time I needed to do that , I steered to where there was more traction ) .
If I happen to need acceleration , I want to floor the accelerator and not think about it .
I do n't need additional cognitive load when things are going wrong .
Besides , this only solves the " hit the wrong pedal " problem , which is n't what we 're talking about there .
If you do want to solve the " hit the wrong pedal " problem , separate the functions .
Do n't have one go pedal and one stop pedal right next to each other .
Put the brake controls on the steering wheel , easy to operate ( maybe squeeze to stop ) .
That gives the added advantage of a significant speed-up in applying the brakes , since nerve impulses travel faster to hands than feet , and at freeway speeds a tenth of a second is a touch under nine feet ( call it about 270cm for you metric guys ) .
There 's probably things wrong with that idea , but you really do need to have different and not almost identical controls if you 're afraid of confusing them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
And, just like your previous post, it's a stupid idea.
If I'm in an emergency, the last thing I want is to have to figure out how to control the car.
That's the advantage of ABS:  I just floor the brakes and don't think about them.
I just steer, observe, and try to figure out what to do next (last time I needed to do that, I steered to where there was more traction).
If I happen to need acceleration, I want to floor the accelerator and not think about it.
I don't need additional cognitive load when things are going wrong.
Besides, this only solves the "hit the wrong pedal" problem, which isn't what we're talking about there.
If you do want to solve the "hit the wrong pedal" problem, separate the functions.
Don't have one go pedal and one stop pedal right next to each other.
Put the brake controls on the steering wheel, easy to operate (maybe squeeze to stop).
That gives the added advantage of a significant speed-up in applying the brakes, since nerve impulses travel faster to hands than feet, and at freeway speeds a tenth of a second is a touch under nine feet (call it about 270cm for you metric guys).
There's probably things wrong with that idea, but you really do need to have different and not almost identical controls if you're afraid of confusing them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342456</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345194</id>
	<title>Re:Hmmm.... Mech not fool proof</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267630500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In 1981 or so I had wet snow from a 17 inch snowstorm pack up on the top of the engine of a 63 Valiant and block the mechanical throttle from returning via the return spring.  It stayed stuck where I had last put it.  So a "mechanical linkage between the throttle body and the pedal" is not fool proof. Not that I am a fool.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In 1981 or so I had wet snow from a 17 inch snowstorm pack up on the top of the engine of a 63 Valiant and block the mechanical throttle from returning via the return spring .
It stayed stuck where I had last put it .
So a " mechanical linkage between the throttle body and the pedal " is not fool proof .
Not that I am a fool .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In 1981 or so I had wet snow from a 17 inch snowstorm pack up on the top of the engine of a 63 Valiant and block the mechanical throttle from returning via the return spring.
It stayed stuck where I had last put it.
So a "mechanical linkage between the throttle body and the pedal" is not fool proof.
Not that I am a fool.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341660</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31346970</id>
	<title>I'll stick to my old technology...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267637940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is a bunch of nonsense, there is no need for any electronics in vehicles, especially drive by wire nonsense. Personally I have issue of a stuck throttle. Drivers side motor mount broke, engine came up and since the throttle linkage was mechanical (bar with pivot, similar to a z-bar on a clutch) the throttle went wide open adn stayed there due to the engine torquing away with a broken motor mount. It took me under a second to fix the problem, just turn the key off. The car had power steering at the time and it's no big deal for any healthy person to steer a car with power steering without the engine running when rolling down the road.</p><p>Simple fix, I converted the car to a standard cable throttle linkage and replaced the broken motor mount. With a cable the throttle will not open any more than idle in the event of a motor mount failure... Which is why they changed to cable throttle linkages in the early 60's and they're used then for decades with no trouble whatsoever. Personally I only drive older carbureted vehicles with no computers. They always start and always get me where I need to go safely.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is a bunch of nonsense , there is no need for any electronics in vehicles , especially drive by wire nonsense .
Personally I have issue of a stuck throttle .
Drivers side motor mount broke , engine came up and since the throttle linkage was mechanical ( bar with pivot , similar to a z-bar on a clutch ) the throttle went wide open adn stayed there due to the engine torquing away with a broken motor mount .
It took me under a second to fix the problem , just turn the key off .
The car had power steering at the time and it 's no big deal for any healthy person to steer a car with power steering without the engine running when rolling down the road.Simple fix , I converted the car to a standard cable throttle linkage and replaced the broken motor mount .
With a cable the throttle will not open any more than idle in the event of a motor mount failure... Which is why they changed to cable throttle linkages in the early 60 's and they 're used then for decades with no trouble whatsoever .
Personally I only drive older carbureted vehicles with no computers .
They always start and always get me where I need to go safely .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is a bunch of nonsense, there is no need for any electronics in vehicles, especially drive by wire nonsense.
Personally I have issue of a stuck throttle.
Drivers side motor mount broke, engine came up and since the throttle linkage was mechanical (bar with pivot, similar to a z-bar on a clutch) the throttle went wide open adn stayed there due to the engine torquing away with a broken motor mount.
It took me under a second to fix the problem, just turn the key off.
The car had power steering at the time and it's no big deal for any healthy person to steer a car with power steering without the engine running when rolling down the road.Simple fix, I converted the car to a standard cable throttle linkage and replaced the broken motor mount.
With a cable the throttle will not open any more than idle in the event of a motor mount failure... Which is why they changed to cable throttle linkages in the early 60's and they're used then for decades with no trouble whatsoever.
Personally I only drive older carbureted vehicles with no computers.
They always start and always get me where I need to go safely.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341798</id>
	<title>1 Million Sounds pretty cheap</title>
	<author>PetoskeyGuy</author>
	<datestamp>1267649700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Considering the cost of the recalls have had a couple of extra digits this sounds like a pretty cheap bounty.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Considering the cost of the recalls have had a couple of extra digits this sounds like a pretty cheap bounty .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Considering the cost of the recalls have had a couple of extra digits this sounds like a pretty cheap bounty.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342762</id>
	<title>Re:AWESOME CONTEST!!!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267614660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah that's what I don't get. What are they going to do, take suggestions and compare them to a list of shit they've tried already? Have you guys tried turning it off and on again?</p><p>If you seriously want serious help from serious nerds that seriously know serious shit, get serious and AND RELEASE THE SOURCE CODE AND RELATED INFORMATION.</p><p>This is exactly like helping your parents "fix" their Windows machine over the phone. We're pretty useless (or might as well be reading from a script or howto) unless we can tinker with the conflicted contraption and press ALL of it's buttons to see what they do and how they act. Some other post suggested it was the garbage collector or something nice and obscure like that. Only by using the source can we figure out stuff like that.</p><p>Do I get a point wasted on my anonymous ass for having a computer analogy in a car topic?</p><p>On a side note I was absolutely furious when I realized that every single car I had my eye on was drive-by-wire when I bought my current car. I do not want a computer controlling my throttle position, and absolutely do not want it handling my brakes in any fashion. My problem with drive-by-wire is that computers can not possibly know what I want the engine to do. There are times for things like that, and that system already exists in the form of cruise control. If I don't want to manage my throttle then I want it to be fully managed, I have no desire for anything in between. People that *drive* have no desire for anything in between. People that go places will certainly benefit from drive-by-wire systems though, so we're going to see more and more of them, sadly. 2008 Honda Fit 5-speed manual. Braking works while giving it gas (and I need new pads), but IT'S A STICK. Even if the floor mats were a culprit in my ride and fouled every pedal, that bitch is going in to neutral whether it wants to or not.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah that 's what I do n't get .
What are they going to do , take suggestions and compare them to a list of shit they 've tried already ?
Have you guys tried turning it off and on again ? If you seriously want serious help from serious nerds that seriously know serious shit , get serious and AND RELEASE THE SOURCE CODE AND RELATED INFORMATION.This is exactly like helping your parents " fix " their Windows machine over the phone .
We 're pretty useless ( or might as well be reading from a script or howto ) unless we can tinker with the conflicted contraption and press ALL of it 's buttons to see what they do and how they act .
Some other post suggested it was the garbage collector or something nice and obscure like that .
Only by using the source can we figure out stuff like that.Do I get a point wasted on my anonymous ass for having a computer analogy in a car topic ? On a side note I was absolutely furious when I realized that every single car I had my eye on was drive-by-wire when I bought my current car .
I do not want a computer controlling my throttle position , and absolutely do not want it handling my brakes in any fashion .
My problem with drive-by-wire is that computers can not possibly know what I want the engine to do .
There are times for things like that , and that system already exists in the form of cruise control .
If I do n't want to manage my throttle then I want it to be fully managed , I have no desire for anything in between .
People that * drive * have no desire for anything in between .
People that go places will certainly benefit from drive-by-wire systems though , so we 're going to see more and more of them , sadly .
2008 Honda Fit 5-speed manual .
Braking works while giving it gas ( and I need new pads ) , but IT 'S A STICK .
Even if the floor mats were a culprit in my ride and fouled every pedal , that bitch is going in to neutral whether it wants to or not .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah that's what I don't get.
What are they going to do, take suggestions and compare them to a list of shit they've tried already?
Have you guys tried turning it off and on again?If you seriously want serious help from serious nerds that seriously know serious shit, get serious and AND RELEASE THE SOURCE CODE AND RELATED INFORMATION.This is exactly like helping your parents "fix" their Windows machine over the phone.
We're pretty useless (or might as well be reading from a script or howto) unless we can tinker with the conflicted contraption and press ALL of it's buttons to see what they do and how they act.
Some other post suggested it was the garbage collector or something nice and obscure like that.
Only by using the source can we figure out stuff like that.Do I get a point wasted on my anonymous ass for having a computer analogy in a car topic?On a side note I was absolutely furious when I realized that every single car I had my eye on was drive-by-wire when I bought my current car.
I do not want a computer controlling my throttle position, and absolutely do not want it handling my brakes in any fashion.
My problem with drive-by-wire is that computers can not possibly know what I want the engine to do.
There are times for things like that, and that system already exists in the form of cruise control.
If I don't want to manage my throttle then I want it to be fully managed, I have no desire for anything in between.
People that *drive* have no desire for anything in between.
People that go places will certainly benefit from drive-by-wire systems though, so we're going to see more and more of them, sadly.
2008 Honda Fit 5-speed manual.
Braking works while giving it gas (and I need new pads), but IT'S A STICK.
Even if the floor mats were a culprit in my ride and fouled every pedal, that bitch is going in to neutral whether it wants to or not.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341820</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31346664</id>
	<title>Re:Me thinks</title>
	<author>thePowerOfGrayskull</author>
	<datestamp>1267636740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>.. the problem is between the pedals and the seat, morons.</p></div><p>Sure, because it's just coincidence that all of these issues are being reported <i>now</i> and never before.  Your statement reminds me of how our offshore team replies to defect reports -- without even evaluating the facts, they'll take a cursory look at the situation and say "Nope, it was user error". Or "The logs don't show a problem, so everything's fine."
</p><p>
My reply to you is the same as it is to them: try engaging your brain once in a while instead of trying to shift blame. You might find it educational.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>.. the problem is between the pedals and the seat , morons.Sure , because it 's just coincidence that all of these issues are being reported now and never before .
Your statement reminds me of how our offshore team replies to defect reports -- without even evaluating the facts , they 'll take a cursory look at the situation and say " Nope , it was user error " .
Or " The logs do n't show a problem , so everything 's fine .
" My reply to you is the same as it is to them : try engaging your brain once in a while instead of trying to shift blame .
You might find it educational .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>.. the problem is between the pedals and the seat, morons.Sure, because it's just coincidence that all of these issues are being reported now and never before.
Your statement reminds me of how our offshore team replies to defect reports -- without even evaluating the facts, they'll take a cursory look at the situation and say "Nope, it was user error".
Or "The logs don't show a problem, so everything's fine.
"

My reply to you is the same as it is to them: try engaging your brain once in a while instead of trying to shift blame.
You might find it educational.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341558</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31347024</id>
	<title>Use the clutch</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267638180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I had an '81 Honda Civic that where the engine would occasionally take off running when I started it.  But it had a manual transmission.  I just pushed in the clutch, no uncontrolled acceleration.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I had an '81 Honda Civic that where the engine would occasionally take off running when I started it .
But it had a manual transmission .
I just pushed in the clutch , no uncontrolled acceleration .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I had an '81 Honda Civic that where the engine would occasionally take off running when I started it.
But it had a manual transmission.
I just pushed in the clutch, no uncontrolled acceleration.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345030</id>
	<title>Re: Why by-wire?</title>
	<author>qubezz</author>
	<datestamp>1267629780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Drive by wire is a product of two 'driving' forces - hybrid-drive technologies, increasing user interaction quality and feel, and more efficient and emission-friendly fully-computer controlled operation.<br> <br>

What should a gas pedal do? It is the device where the driver inputs the amount of acceleration desired from the engine. In an ideal system the amount of power delivered would be a linear progression through the range of the pedal, but that can't be achieved when the pedal actually controls the angle of a butterfly valve in the throttle body. It can be achieved elegantly when the pedal is interpreted by a computer as 'deliver this much power', and the engine management system complies.
<br> <br>
In addition, with a 'direct pedal linkage', a mechanical component such as the throttle body is directly controlling airflow, and the computer has to 'react' to the input of the pedal, which is read indirectly with throttle position sensors and airflow sensors, and then computer detects with oxygen sensors how well it did in trying to inject the proper amount of fuel. With a by-wire system, all fuel and air inputs can be operated in tandem for efficient and clean combustion when the computer controls everything by wire and known combustion mapping tables.
<br> <br>
With a hybrid, of course, the pedal won't be directly controlling the gasoline motor at all, the car could be running off electric, eh?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Drive by wire is a product of two 'driving ' forces - hybrid-drive technologies , increasing user interaction quality and feel , and more efficient and emission-friendly fully-computer controlled operation .
What should a gas pedal do ?
It is the device where the driver inputs the amount of acceleration desired from the engine .
In an ideal system the amount of power delivered would be a linear progression through the range of the pedal , but that ca n't be achieved when the pedal actually controls the angle of a butterfly valve in the throttle body .
It can be achieved elegantly when the pedal is interpreted by a computer as 'deliver this much power ' , and the engine management system complies .
In addition , with a 'direct pedal linkage ' , a mechanical component such as the throttle body is directly controlling airflow , and the computer has to 'react ' to the input of the pedal , which is read indirectly with throttle position sensors and airflow sensors , and then computer detects with oxygen sensors how well it did in trying to inject the proper amount of fuel .
With a by-wire system , all fuel and air inputs can be operated in tandem for efficient and clean combustion when the computer controls everything by wire and known combustion mapping tables .
With a hybrid , of course , the pedal wo n't be directly controlling the gasoline motor at all , the car could be running off electric , eh ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Drive by wire is a product of two 'driving' forces - hybrid-drive technologies, increasing user interaction quality and feel, and more efficient and emission-friendly fully-computer controlled operation.
What should a gas pedal do?
It is the device where the driver inputs the amount of acceleration desired from the engine.
In an ideal system the amount of power delivered would be a linear progression through the range of the pedal, but that can't be achieved when the pedal actually controls the angle of a butterfly valve in the throttle body.
It can be achieved elegantly when the pedal is interpreted by a computer as 'deliver this much power', and the engine management system complies.
In addition, with a 'direct pedal linkage', a mechanical component such as the throttle body is directly controlling airflow, and the computer has to 'react' to the input of the pedal, which is read indirectly with throttle position sensors and airflow sensors, and then computer detects with oxygen sensors how well it did in trying to inject the proper amount of fuel.
With a by-wire system, all fuel and air inputs can be operated in tandem for efficient and clean combustion when the computer controls everything by wire and known combustion mapping tables.
With a hybrid, of course, the pedal won't be directly controlling the gasoline motor at all, the car could be running off electric, eh?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341660</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342400</id>
	<title>Re:Kill Switch?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267611600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Things like controls for the air conditioning, but more importantly: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic\_stability\_control" title="wikipedia.org">Electronic stability control</a> [wikipedia.org] <br> <br>
These things are really saving lives by not slamming into trees when your car would suddenly start spinning on a slippery surface, as it would when you did not have ESC installed.<br> <br>
(<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock\_braking\_system" title="wikipedia.org">Anti-lock braking</a> [wikipedia.org] is an older technology, which also needs computing power, but this thing is actually needed to achieve ESC. My car only has this ABS, since it's a fairly cheap model)<br> <br>
I wouldn't be suprised if there are more very usefull things in a modern car that need that kind of computing power.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Things like controls for the air conditioning , but more importantly : Electronic stability control [ wikipedia.org ] These things are really saving lives by not slamming into trees when your car would suddenly start spinning on a slippery surface , as it would when you did not have ESC installed .
( Anti-lock braking [ wikipedia.org ] is an older technology , which also needs computing power , but this thing is actually needed to achieve ESC .
My car only has this ABS , since it 's a fairly cheap model ) I would n't be suprised if there are more very usefull things in a modern car that need that kind of computing power .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Things like controls for the air conditioning, but more importantly: Electronic stability control [wikipedia.org]  
These things are really saving lives by not slamming into trees when your car would suddenly start spinning on a slippery surface, as it would when you did not have ESC installed.
(Anti-lock braking [wikipedia.org] is an older technology, which also needs computing power, but this thing is actually needed to achieve ESC.
My car only has this ABS, since it's a fairly cheap model) 
I wouldn't be suprised if there are more very usefull things in a modern car that need that kind of computing power.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342026</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31347214</id>
	<title>Re:What's with these drive by wire cars?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267638840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>great another shitty black box that burns out when you need it the most. you think the crazy safety standards that apply to aircraft also apply to the civilian auto market? haha</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>great another shitty black box that burns out when you need it the most .
you think the crazy safety standards that apply to aircraft also apply to the civilian auto market ?
haha</tokentext>
<sentencetext>great another shitty black box that burns out when you need it the most.
you think the crazy safety standards that apply to aircraft also apply to the civilian auto market?
haha</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342000</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344250</id>
	<title>Re:All cars already have this system</title>
	<author>Jahava</author>
	<datestamp>1267625940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It really depends. On a true manual transmission, you are correct. You are physically detaching the engine from the wheels when you pop the shifter into neutral. However, on automatic transmissions, it gets more complicated. Depending on the car (and I'm not sure where Toyota's systems fit in), the user's information is passed to the transmission through any number of methods. Some use mechanical valves and pressure to choose a gear (in which case, you are correct), while most modern-day transmissions have <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission\_control\_unit" title="wikipedia.org">computers</a> [wikipedia.org] to do it.</p><p>Since computers now handle the operations necessary to convey choices made by the driver to the transmission, it's entirely possible that the computers in the car could cause fail to enter neutral even when the car is clearly placed there. This isn't inherently a bad thing<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... the computers use information from sensors and performance to choose optimal times to shift, maximizing efficiency and minimizing engine wear. These algorithms are very important, and have been responsible for some of the complex hybrid car systems and efficiency and reliability improvements that we enjoy. They just need to be very fault-tolerant.</p><p>My guess (and I'm talking out of my arse here) is that a software bug prevented the TCU from receiving commands. Complex embedded systems operate by transmitting asynchronous messages to each other via a message bus. Critical systems needs (i.e., when I hit the brake pedal, you <b>must</b> engage the break unit within 1ms) are met by attaching priorities to those messages, allowing the message bus to drop low-priority messages in favor of higher-priority ones when it is overwhelmed. I'd not be surprised if many of Toyota's systems shared the same message bus (at least, their accelerator and transmission control systems), and that the sudden acceleration issue is due to a software bug either taking down the message bus or flooding it with a super-high-priority message, causing it to discard lesser messages like transmission controls and power controls. I'm not speaking with any authority here, but if I was to engage in this challenge, that's the first place I'd look.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It really depends .
On a true manual transmission , you are correct .
You are physically detaching the engine from the wheels when you pop the shifter into neutral .
However , on automatic transmissions , it gets more complicated .
Depending on the car ( and I 'm not sure where Toyota 's systems fit in ) , the user 's information is passed to the transmission through any number of methods .
Some use mechanical valves and pressure to choose a gear ( in which case , you are correct ) , while most modern-day transmissions have computers [ wikipedia.org ] to do it.Since computers now handle the operations necessary to convey choices made by the driver to the transmission , it 's entirely possible that the computers in the car could cause fail to enter neutral even when the car is clearly placed there .
This is n't inherently a bad thing ... the computers use information from sensors and performance to choose optimal times to shift , maximizing efficiency and minimizing engine wear .
These algorithms are very important , and have been responsible for some of the complex hybrid car systems and efficiency and reliability improvements that we enjoy .
They just need to be very fault-tolerant.My guess ( and I 'm talking out of my arse here ) is that a software bug prevented the TCU from receiving commands .
Complex embedded systems operate by transmitting asynchronous messages to each other via a message bus .
Critical systems needs ( i.e. , when I hit the brake pedal , you must engage the break unit within 1ms ) are met by attaching priorities to those messages , allowing the message bus to drop low-priority messages in favor of higher-priority ones when it is overwhelmed .
I 'd not be surprised if many of Toyota 's systems shared the same message bus ( at least , their accelerator and transmission control systems ) , and that the sudden acceleration issue is due to a software bug either taking down the message bus or flooding it with a super-high-priority message , causing it to discard lesser messages like transmission controls and power controls .
I 'm not speaking with any authority here , but if I was to engage in this challenge , that 's the first place I 'd look .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It really depends.
On a true manual transmission, you are correct.
You are physically detaching the engine from the wheels when you pop the shifter into neutral.
However, on automatic transmissions, it gets more complicated.
Depending on the car (and I'm not sure where Toyota's systems fit in), the user's information is passed to the transmission through any number of methods.
Some use mechanical valves and pressure to choose a gear (in which case, you are correct), while most modern-day transmissions have computers [wikipedia.org] to do it.Since computers now handle the operations necessary to convey choices made by the driver to the transmission, it's entirely possible that the computers in the car could cause fail to enter neutral even when the car is clearly placed there.
This isn't inherently a bad thing ... the computers use information from sensors and performance to choose optimal times to shift, maximizing efficiency and minimizing engine wear.
These algorithms are very important, and have been responsible for some of the complex hybrid car systems and efficiency and reliability improvements that we enjoy.
They just need to be very fault-tolerant.My guess (and I'm talking out of my arse here) is that a software bug prevented the TCU from receiving commands.
Complex embedded systems operate by transmitting asynchronous messages to each other via a message bus.
Critical systems needs (i.e., when I hit the brake pedal, you must engage the break unit within 1ms) are met by attaching priorities to those messages, allowing the message bus to drop low-priority messages in favor of higher-priority ones when it is overwhelmed.
I'd not be surprised if many of Toyota's systems shared the same message bus (at least, their accelerator and transmission control systems), and that the sudden acceleration issue is due to a software bug either taking down the message bus or flooding it with a super-high-priority message, causing it to discard lesser messages like transmission controls and power controls.
I'm not speaking with any authority here, but if I was to engage in this challenge, that's the first place I'd look.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341790</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31350024</id>
	<title>Re:Requiring strong brakes?</title>
	<author>zhenya00</author>
	<datestamp>1267608900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Every time this story keeps popping up, everyone keeps getting this detail wrong. The requirement exists for a vehicle at rest. Brakes must be able to prevent a vehicle from starting to roll at full throttle. The physics involved when a vehicle is traveling at 50-80 mph and at full throttle are completely different. On many vehicles the brakes can not stop a vehicle in this situation; which is completely different from holding a vehicle at rest.</p><p>Think about this people - you can still do burn outs in modern cars; its just a lot harder to get started and get right. I don't know why everyone keeps getting this soooooo wrong. Plus, if everything could be made right by simply pressing the brake peddle, chances are very high we wouldn't be reading about this problem today.</p><p>Sp please stop spreading this misinformation. It largely does not pertain to the greater context.</p></div><p>But the fact of the matter is that EVERY proper test that has ever been done has shown that the brakes can stop the vehicle <i>even one traveling at speed</i> with the throttle wide open.  See <a href="http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how\_to\_deal\_with\_unintended\_acceleration-tech\_dept" title="caranddriver.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how\_to\_deal\_with\_unintended\_acceleration-tech\_dept</a> [caranddriver.com] </p><p> It seems you are the one spreading mis-information.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Every time this story keeps popping up , everyone keeps getting this detail wrong .
The requirement exists for a vehicle at rest .
Brakes must be able to prevent a vehicle from starting to roll at full throttle .
The physics involved when a vehicle is traveling at 50-80 mph and at full throttle are completely different .
On many vehicles the brakes can not stop a vehicle in this situation ; which is completely different from holding a vehicle at rest.Think about this people - you can still do burn outs in modern cars ; its just a lot harder to get started and get right .
I do n't know why everyone keeps getting this soooooo wrong .
Plus , if everything could be made right by simply pressing the brake peddle , chances are very high we would n't be reading about this problem today.Sp please stop spreading this misinformation .
It largely does not pertain to the greater context.But the fact of the matter is that EVERY proper test that has ever been done has shown that the brakes can stop the vehicle even one traveling at speed with the throttle wide open .
See http : //www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how \ _to \ _deal \ _with \ _unintended \ _acceleration-tech \ _dept [ caranddriver.com ] It seems you are the one spreading mis-information .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Every time this story keeps popping up, everyone keeps getting this detail wrong.
The requirement exists for a vehicle at rest.
Brakes must be able to prevent a vehicle from starting to roll at full throttle.
The physics involved when a vehicle is traveling at 50-80 mph and at full throttle are completely different.
On many vehicles the brakes can not stop a vehicle in this situation; which is completely different from holding a vehicle at rest.Think about this people - you can still do burn outs in modern cars; its just a lot harder to get started and get right.
I don't know why everyone keeps getting this soooooo wrong.
Plus, if everything could be made right by simply pressing the brake peddle, chances are very high we wouldn't be reading about this problem today.Sp please stop spreading this misinformation.
It largely does not pertain to the greater context.But the fact of the matter is that EVERY proper test that has ever been done has shown that the brakes can stop the vehicle even one traveling at speed with the throttle wide open.
See http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/how\_to\_deal\_with\_unintended\_acceleration-tech\_dept [caranddriver.com]  It seems you are the one spreading mis-information.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345664</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31346398</id>
	<title>The other Left Foot</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267635600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>People often have difficulty in panic situations. Some drivers use both feet.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>People often have difficulty in panic situations .
Some drivers use both feet .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>People often have difficulty in panic situations.
Some drivers use both feet.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341616</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343428</id>
	<title>Gravity.</title>
	<author>6Yankee</author>
	<datestamp>1267620780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Unintended acceleration? Usually gravity. Now gimme my million.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Unintended acceleration ?
Usually gravity .
Now gim me my million .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unintended acceleration?
Usually gravity.
Now gimme my million.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345320</id>
	<title>Re:Me thinks</title>
	<author>Grizzley9</author>
	<datestamp>1267631100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I remember a Star Trek episode about this once.  Enterprise kept accelerating out of control, something about locked inducer coils or something.  So they ejected the core (or threatened to?).</p><p>So that's what we need, a button to eject the engine.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I remember a Star Trek episode about this once .
Enterprise kept accelerating out of control , something about locked inducer coils or something .
So they ejected the core ( or threatened to ?
) .So that 's what we need , a button to eject the engine .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I remember a Star Trek episode about this once.
Enterprise kept accelerating out of control, something about locked inducer coils or something.
So they ejected the core (or threatened to?
).So that's what we need, a button to eject the engine.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341558</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31348594</id>
	<title>Re:Hmmm....</title>
	<author>c++0xFF</author>
	<datestamp>1267645260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Fly-by-wire is a necessity for modern aircraft: an airplane (see most flying wing designs, for examples) is simply way to unstable otherwise.</p><p>Cars, however, are a different story.  While aircraft need the electronics to stay in the air, a car only needs it for unnecessary but still worthwhile features (which others have mentioned in this thread).</p><p>If implemented correctly, drive-by-wire should be as safe (and probably more safe) than a purely mechanical system.  On the other hand, I would never drive a car with any code supplied by some programmers I've worked with (including myself).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Fly-by-wire is a necessity for modern aircraft : an airplane ( see most flying wing designs , for examples ) is simply way to unstable otherwise.Cars , however , are a different story .
While aircraft need the electronics to stay in the air , a car only needs it for unnecessary but still worthwhile features ( which others have mentioned in this thread ) .If implemented correctly , drive-by-wire should be as safe ( and probably more safe ) than a purely mechanical system .
On the other hand , I would never drive a car with any code supplied by some programmers I 've worked with ( including myself ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Fly-by-wire is a necessity for modern aircraft: an airplane (see most flying wing designs, for examples) is simply way to unstable otherwise.Cars, however, are a different story.
While aircraft need the electronics to stay in the air, a car only needs it for unnecessary but still worthwhile features (which others have mentioned in this thread).If implemented correctly, drive-by-wire should be as safe (and probably more safe) than a purely mechanical system.
On the other hand, I would never drive a car with any code supplied by some programmers I've worked with (including myself).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341660</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31350588</id>
	<title>So, do you have any figures to back this up?</title>
	<author>mbessey</author>
	<datestamp>1267611720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt;On many vehicles the brakes can not stop a vehicle in this situation</p><p>For a basic reality check - have you *ever* seen published performance specifications or test results for any vehicle where the stopping distance from 60mph(100km/h) was more than 200 feet(60m)? No? Me neither.</p><p>To stop a 2-ton vehicle from 60 mph in 200 feet takes about 400 horsepower. If the brakes can apply the equivalent of 400HP to the wheels (actually more, since the stopping distance has friction with the road as a limiting factor), then the car *will* slow down when you press on the brake, regardless of the power being output by the engine. The braking force varies with speed, but not enough to matter for this calculation.</p><p>Of course, if your engine is racing at full throttle putting out 200 horsepower, and you're already doing 60 mph, it'll take longer than usual to stop - on the order of 10 seconds, rather than 4 seconds. If you wait until you've reached 120 mph before you decide to stand on the brake, it'll take 40 seconds to stop, and a distance of over 1/2 mile. I could see that being a problem, particularly with a panicking driver...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; On many vehicles the brakes can not stop a vehicle in this situationFor a basic reality check - have you * ever * seen published performance specifications or test results for any vehicle where the stopping distance from 60mph ( 100km/h ) was more than 200 feet ( 60m ) ?
No ? Me neither.To stop a 2-ton vehicle from 60 mph in 200 feet takes about 400 horsepower .
If the brakes can apply the equivalent of 400HP to the wheels ( actually more , since the stopping distance has friction with the road as a limiting factor ) , then the car * will * slow down when you press on the brake , regardless of the power being output by the engine .
The braking force varies with speed , but not enough to matter for this calculation.Of course , if your engine is racing at full throttle putting out 200 horsepower , and you 're already doing 60 mph , it 'll take longer than usual to stop - on the order of 10 seconds , rather than 4 seconds .
If you wait until you 've reached 120 mph before you decide to stand on the brake , it 'll take 40 seconds to stop , and a distance of over 1/2 mile .
I could see that being a problem , particularly with a panicking driver.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt;On many vehicles the brakes can not stop a vehicle in this situationFor a basic reality check - have you *ever* seen published performance specifications or test results for any vehicle where the stopping distance from 60mph(100km/h) was more than 200 feet(60m)?
No? Me neither.To stop a 2-ton vehicle from 60 mph in 200 feet takes about 400 horsepower.
If the brakes can apply the equivalent of 400HP to the wheels (actually more, since the stopping distance has friction with the road as a limiting factor), then the car *will* slow down when you press on the brake, regardless of the power being output by the engine.
The braking force varies with speed, but not enough to matter for this calculation.Of course, if your engine is racing at full throttle putting out 200 horsepower, and you're already doing 60 mph, it'll take longer than usual to stop - on the order of 10 seconds, rather than 4 seconds.
If you wait until you've reached 120 mph before you decide to stand on the brake, it'll take 40 seconds to stop, and a distance of over 1/2 mile.
I could see that being a problem, particularly with a panicking driver...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345664</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31346380</id>
	<title>All of the sudden, GM doesn't look so bad</title>
	<author>AthleteMusicianNerd</author>
	<datestamp>1267635480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>GM looked like tools up until Toyota claimed that distinction.</htmltext>
<tokenext>GM looked like tools up until Toyota claimed that distinction .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>GM looked like tools up until Toyota claimed that distinction.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31350182</id>
	<title>Re:Solution</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267609560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>break...break...br*****</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>break...break...br * * * * *</tokentext>
<sentencetext>break...break...br*****</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344136</id>
	<title>unintended acceleration</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267625400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've been wondering for quite some time if this could actually be caused by EMF.  the use of emf filters in electronic circuitry has been on the decline for a good number of years to save the extra buck or two, and nowadays people have all sorts of EMF-producing devices (bluetooth/cellphones/dvd players/wiis/lard hadron colliders/whatever) inside their cars.  Could it be someone's buying cheap dvd players from biglots or chinese haxors on ebay that are producing signals that interfere with the digitally controlled aspects of the acceleration system?</p><p>or, maybe we can blame law enforcement for the use of radar, and maybe some radar shielding or duct tape or aluminum foil wrapped around the bumper would solve the problem.</p><p>That would look pretty sexy.<br>fhn</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've been wondering for quite some time if this could actually be caused by EMF .
the use of emf filters in electronic circuitry has been on the decline for a good number of years to save the extra buck or two , and nowadays people have all sorts of EMF-producing devices ( bluetooth/cellphones/dvd players/wiis/lard hadron colliders/whatever ) inside their cars .
Could it be someone 's buying cheap dvd players from biglots or chinese haxors on ebay that are producing signals that interfere with the digitally controlled aspects of the acceleration system ? or , maybe we can blame law enforcement for the use of radar , and maybe some radar shielding or duct tape or aluminum foil wrapped around the bumper would solve the problem.That would look pretty sexy.fhn</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've been wondering for quite some time if this could actually be caused by EMF.
the use of emf filters in electronic circuitry has been on the decline for a good number of years to save the extra buck or two, and nowadays people have all sorts of EMF-producing devices (bluetooth/cellphones/dvd players/wiis/lard hadron colliders/whatever) inside their cars.
Could it be someone's buying cheap dvd players from biglots or chinese haxors on ebay that are producing signals that interfere with the digitally controlled aspects of the acceleration system?or, maybe we can blame law enforcement for the use of radar, and maybe some radar shielding or duct tape or aluminum foil wrapped around the bumper would solve the problem.That would look pretty sexy.fhn</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343268</id>
	<title>Re:Turn the key off or put the car in neutral.....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267619400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just don't turn it off all the way and thus engage the steering lock!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just do n't turn it off all the way and thus engage the steering lock !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just don't turn it off all the way and thus engage the steering lock!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341978</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343758</id>
	<title>Requiring strong brakes?</title>
	<author>jafo</author>
	<datestamp>1267622940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm pretty sure that it's standard on all cars to have brakes that are more powerful than the engine.  First of all, it's relatively easy, compared to adding horsepower.  I've tried it in several cars including high and low power cars and have never had brakes that couldn't easily hold back the engine.  300 ft/lbs is a pretty powerful engine, but when spread between 4 wheels it's relatively little torque for even fairly modest brakes to handle.<br><br>However, that's assuming they are operating properly...  If they're defective, doesn't matter how powerful they were designed for...  I used to have a 300ZX with rather beefy brakes, and when the master cylinder started leaking the brakes got rather weak.  I probably would have had a hard time holding back the engine in the 5 miles or so I drove it after noticing it but before getting it fixed.<br><br>Now, if the car computer can disable the foot and parking brakes, that's another matter entirely.  Usually the parking brake is an entirely different system from the brake pedal, using a cable instead of hydraulics.  Because there's no booster it can take significant effort to get a lot of braking force, but I'd expect you could overcome the engine with the parking brake unless there are mechanical issues, though some may find it difficult or impossible to apply enough force to a hand brake to overcome the engine, particularly if going down hill.  So there still could be some cases, particularly with a computer in the mix, where strong brakes can't be operated effectively enough to overcome the engine.<br><br>Sean</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm pretty sure that it 's standard on all cars to have brakes that are more powerful than the engine .
First of all , it 's relatively easy , compared to adding horsepower .
I 've tried it in several cars including high and low power cars and have never had brakes that could n't easily hold back the engine .
300 ft/lbs is a pretty powerful engine , but when spread between 4 wheels it 's relatively little torque for even fairly modest brakes to handle.However , that 's assuming they are operating properly... If they 're defective , does n't matter how powerful they were designed for... I used to have a 300ZX with rather beefy brakes , and when the master cylinder started leaking the brakes got rather weak .
I probably would have had a hard time holding back the engine in the 5 miles or so I drove it after noticing it but before getting it fixed.Now , if the car computer can disable the foot and parking brakes , that 's another matter entirely .
Usually the parking brake is an entirely different system from the brake pedal , using a cable instead of hydraulics .
Because there 's no booster it can take significant effort to get a lot of braking force , but I 'd expect you could overcome the engine with the parking brake unless there are mechanical issues , though some may find it difficult or impossible to apply enough force to a hand brake to overcome the engine , particularly if going down hill .
So there still could be some cases , particularly with a computer in the mix , where strong brakes ca n't be operated effectively enough to overcome the engine.Sean</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm pretty sure that it's standard on all cars to have brakes that are more powerful than the engine.
First of all, it's relatively easy, compared to adding horsepower.
I've tried it in several cars including high and low power cars and have never had brakes that couldn't easily hold back the engine.
300 ft/lbs is a pretty powerful engine, but when spread between 4 wheels it's relatively little torque for even fairly modest brakes to handle.However, that's assuming they are operating properly...  If they're defective, doesn't matter how powerful they were designed for...  I used to have a 300ZX with rather beefy brakes, and when the master cylinder started leaking the brakes got rather weak.
I probably would have had a hard time holding back the engine in the 5 miles or so I drove it after noticing it but before getting it fixed.Now, if the car computer can disable the foot and parking brakes, that's another matter entirely.
Usually the parking brake is an entirely different system from the brake pedal, using a cable instead of hydraulics.
Because there's no booster it can take significant effort to get a lot of braking force, but I'd expect you could overcome the engine with the parking brake unless there are mechanical issues, though some may find it difficult or impossible to apply enough force to a hand brake to overcome the engine, particularly if going down hill.
So there still could be some cases, particularly with a computer in the mix, where strong brakes can't be operated effectively enough to overcome the engine.Sean</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31350388</id>
	<title>Re:AWESOME CONTEST!!!</title>
	<author>linatux</author>
	<datestamp>1267610700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My initial thoughts were along this line, but started to wonder about storage violations - unusual conditions overwriting the throttle position sensors. (awfully difficult to replicate)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My initial thoughts were along this line , but started to wonder about storage violations - unusual conditions overwriting the throttle position sensors .
( awfully difficult to replicate )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My initial thoughts were along this line, but started to wonder about storage violations - unusual conditions overwriting the throttle position sensors.
(awfully difficult to replicate)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344144</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343604</id>
	<title>drunk is the answer</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267621920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>drunk car assembling<br>drunk driving<br>drunk slashdoting</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>drunk car assemblingdrunk drivingdrunk slashdoting</tokentext>
<sentencetext>drunk car assemblingdrunk drivingdrunk slashdoting</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341970</id>
	<title>Re:Idiocy.</title>
	<author>interkin3tic</author>
	<datestamp>1267607700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>As someone else said, shifting just sends a signal to the transmission. You're not directly controlling any gears.</p> </div><p>Obviously not true of manual transmissions though, or has Toyota been putting out those fake manual transmissions some car manufacturers are convinced we want?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>As someone else said , shifting just sends a signal to the transmission .
You 're not directly controlling any gears .
Obviously not true of manual transmissions though , or has Toyota been putting out those fake manual transmissions some car manufacturers are convinced we want ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As someone else said, shifting just sends a signal to the transmission.
You're not directly controlling any gears.
Obviously not true of manual transmissions though, or has Toyota been putting out those fake manual transmissions some car manufacturers are convinced we want?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341764</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31351014</id>
	<title>Re:AWESOME CONTEST!!!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267613640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Umm.. wasn't Audi identified in the teaser?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Umm.. was n't Audi identified in the teaser ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Umm.. wasn't Audi identified in the teaser?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344144</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341914</id>
	<title>I KNOW I KNOW GIMME GIMME</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267607280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I have a camry. Sometimes when I tap the accelerator after coasting or while stopped it unexpectedly accelerates harder than I expected despite pressing the pedal just a little bit, forcing me to take my foot off the pedal to avoid rear-ending the car in front of me. Thus, unintended acceleration. The cause is the neural network that "learns my driving style", which is what the car salesman told me was a feature of the car. Anyone who's worked with neural networks knows that sometimes, they aren't always right...<br> <br>

I mean really, how do I verify this though...? When someone complains "the car accelerated unintentionally" how do we know they didn't just have my experience, which is really minor.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have a camry .
Sometimes when I tap the accelerator after coasting or while stopped it unexpectedly accelerates harder than I expected despite pressing the pedal just a little bit , forcing me to take my foot off the pedal to avoid rear-ending the car in front of me .
Thus , unintended acceleration .
The cause is the neural network that " learns my driving style " , which is what the car salesman told me was a feature of the car .
Anyone who 's worked with neural networks knows that sometimes , they are n't always right.. . I mean really , how do I verify this though... ?
When someone complains " the car accelerated unintentionally " how do we know they did n't just have my experience , which is really minor .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have a camry.
Sometimes when I tap the accelerator after coasting or while stopped it unexpectedly accelerates harder than I expected despite pressing the pedal just a little bit, forcing me to take my foot off the pedal to avoid rear-ending the car in front of me.
Thus, unintended acceleration.
The cause is the neural network that "learns my driving style", which is what the car salesman told me was a feature of the car.
Anyone who's worked with neural networks knows that sometimes, they aren't always right... 

I mean really, how do I verify this though...?
When someone complains "the car accelerated unintentionally" how do we know they didn't just have my experience, which is really minor.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31349900</id>
	<title>Re:Kinda Obvious</title>
	<author>zhenya00</author>
	<datestamp>1267608300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Furthermore, I'd guess that probably nobody here except me has ever experienced an "uncontrolled acceleration" scenario, let me tell you that it is on of the most terrifying thing you can imagine, and it's impossible to react flawlessly. Everybody considers themselves a good driver (feh) but quick thinking under a life or death situation is completely different. The fight or flight reflex doesn't cover "shift into neutral and turn off ignition." You are not a professional driver, you are not the Knight Rider, you will probably crash before you get around to turning off the engine. It not stupidity, it's just the way our brains are built.</p></div><p>Actually, when all cars were outfitted with an actual throttle cable, unintended acceleration was not particularly uncommon, and was something that many drivers would experience over their lifetime.  Perhaps the difference was that a higher percentage of those cars also had manual transmissions, meaning pushing the clutch in immediately disconnects the engine from the drive train.  Even today, many older cars on the road have a physical cable that can become damaged and stuck open in any number of ways, especially as they age.  I'd wager that there are FAR more instances of this happening in cars with a real throttle cable as opposed to drive by wire.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Furthermore , I 'd guess that probably nobody here except me has ever experienced an " uncontrolled acceleration " scenario , let me tell you that it is on of the most terrifying thing you can imagine , and it 's impossible to react flawlessly .
Everybody considers themselves a good driver ( feh ) but quick thinking under a life or death situation is completely different .
The fight or flight reflex does n't cover " shift into neutral and turn off ignition .
" You are not a professional driver , you are not the Knight Rider , you will probably crash before you get around to turning off the engine .
It not stupidity , it 's just the way our brains are built.Actually , when all cars were outfitted with an actual throttle cable , unintended acceleration was not particularly uncommon , and was something that many drivers would experience over their lifetime .
Perhaps the difference was that a higher percentage of those cars also had manual transmissions , meaning pushing the clutch in immediately disconnects the engine from the drive train .
Even today , many older cars on the road have a physical cable that can become damaged and stuck open in any number of ways , especially as they age .
I 'd wager that there are FAR more instances of this happening in cars with a real throttle cable as opposed to drive by wire .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Furthermore, I'd guess that probably nobody here except me has ever experienced an "uncontrolled acceleration" scenario, let me tell you that it is on of the most terrifying thing you can imagine, and it's impossible to react flawlessly.
Everybody considers themselves a good driver (feh) but quick thinking under a life or death situation is completely different.
The fight or flight reflex doesn't cover "shift into neutral and turn off ignition.
" You are not a professional driver, you are not the Knight Rider, you will probably crash before you get around to turning off the engine.
It not stupidity, it's just the way our brains are built.Actually, when all cars were outfitted with an actual throttle cable, unintended acceleration was not particularly uncommon, and was something that many drivers would experience over their lifetime.
Perhaps the difference was that a higher percentage of those cars also had manual transmissions, meaning pushing the clutch in immediately disconnects the engine from the drive train.
Even today, many older cars on the road have a physical cable that can become damaged and stuck open in any number of ways, especially as they age.
I'd wager that there are FAR more instances of this happening in cars with a real throttle cable as opposed to drive by wire.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342176</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341994</id>
	<title>Re:What's with these drive by wire cars?</title>
	<author>Calinous</author>
	<datestamp>1267607880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Feather-light accelerator pedal (I personally hate it, but it might be something that someone wants).<br>
&nbsp; There might be other reasons, but I'm not very sure about them. Better in an accident maybe?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Feather-light accelerator pedal ( I personally hate it , but it might be something that someone wants ) .
  There might be other reasons , but I 'm not very sure about them .
Better in an accident maybe ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Feather-light accelerator pedal (I personally hate it, but it might be something that someone wants).
  There might be other reasons, but I'm not very sure about them.
Better in an accident maybe?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341824</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345944</id>
	<title>Simple Answer!</title>
	<author>smalleyster</author>
	<datestamp>1267633560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The simple answer is:

The reason for unintended accleration is the first idiot who decided to put electronics between the accelerator and the engine.

This is by far the stupidest design decision I have ever witnesssed.

S/he and everyone else who have participated in this moronic scam should be jailed for manslaughter or murder.

IMHO There should be no "fly by wire" in any automobile ever.

PERIOD!</htmltext>
<tokenext>The simple answer is : The reason for unintended accleration is the first idiot who decided to put electronics between the accelerator and the engine .
This is by far the stupidest design decision I have ever witnesssed .
S/he and everyone else who have participated in this moronic scam should be jailed for manslaughter or murder .
IMHO There should be no " fly by wire " in any automobile ever .
PERIOD !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The simple answer is:

The reason for unintended accleration is the first idiot who decided to put electronics between the accelerator and the engine.
This is by far the stupidest design decision I have ever witnesssed.
S/he and everyone else who have participated in this moronic scam should be jailed for manslaughter or murder.
IMHO There should be no "fly by wire" in any automobile ever.
PERIOD!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342916</id>
	<title>Re:Idiocy.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267616160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Haha. Car with stick and (mechanical) clutch ftw. Won't happen in Europe. At least, if you're not dumb enough to buy a car with an automatic gearbox.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Haha .
Car with stick and ( mechanical ) clutch ftw .
Wo n't happen in Europe .
At least , if you 're not dumb enough to buy a car with an automatic gearbox .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Haha.
Car with stick and (mechanical) clutch ftw.
Won't happen in Europe.
At least, if you're not dumb enough to buy a car with an automatic gearbox.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341764</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342212</id>
	<title>Re:Hmmm....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267610040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah, because mechanics never fail...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , because mechanics never fail.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, because mechanics never fail...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341660</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31354278</id>
	<title>Re:Me thinks</title>
	<author>toddestan</author>
	<datestamp>1267635480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Didn't GM just have to recall over a million of their cars because the power steering can fail?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Did n't GM just have to recall over a million of their cars because the power steering can fail ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Didn't GM just have to recall over a million of their cars because the power steering can fail?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342960</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31349948</id>
	<title>land rover</title>
	<author>ooloogi</author>
	<datestamp>1267608480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What model Land Rover is that?  Under what conditions will it lock out of neutral? is there a certain speed over which it wont allow it, or is it RPM based?  It seems strange behaviour, are you sure it isn't a fault with your particular vehicle?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What model Land Rover is that ?
Under what conditions will it lock out of neutral ?
is there a certain speed over which it wont allow it , or is it RPM based ?
It seems strange behaviour , are you sure it is n't a fault with your particular vehicle ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What model Land Rover is that?
Under what conditions will it lock out of neutral?
is there a certain speed over which it wont allow it, or is it RPM based?
It seems strange behaviour, are you sure it isn't a fault with your particular vehicle?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342734</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343840</id>
	<title>Re:You can NOT "just put it in neutral"...</title>
	<author>jafo</author>
	<datestamp>1267623480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've never driven a car that I couldn't put in neutral at speed.  I've never driven a Prius though.  Next time I'm around one of my friends who has a Prius or Camry hybrid, I'll have to check it out.  I can't think of an automatic that I've driven where you couldn't just push the shift lever (without pushing the button), from D to N, and it would stop before hitting R.  They're designed to shift easily between N and D because, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe your owners manual recommends that you shift between N and D when you are stopping and starting.  It's just that most people don't do this, and the system handles being in D but stopped.  Now, I'm talking mostly about traditional automatics and not the fancy hybrid systems.<br><br>I am in the habit, from driving a stick, to shifting into N when I stop and back into gear when I go.  So, I do this in automatics as well.  It prevents you from rolling into the intersection if your foot slips off the brake, unless you're on a hill.  And if you're on snow or ice, I've found that being in N significantly helps with stopping.  Which kind of makes sense, if the drive wheels aren't being driven by the engine (faster *OR* slower) at the same time you're trying to stop and possibly ABS is kicking in.<br><br>Sean</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've never driven a car that I could n't put in neutral at speed .
I 've never driven a Prius though .
Next time I 'm around one of my friends who has a Prius or Camry hybrid , I 'll have to check it out .
I ca n't think of an automatic that I 've driven where you could n't just push the shift lever ( without pushing the button ) , from D to N , and it would stop before hitting R. They 're designed to shift easily between N and D because , and correct me if I 'm wrong , but I believe your owners manual recommends that you shift between N and D when you are stopping and starting .
It 's just that most people do n't do this , and the system handles being in D but stopped .
Now , I 'm talking mostly about traditional automatics and not the fancy hybrid systems.I am in the habit , from driving a stick , to shifting into N when I stop and back into gear when I go .
So , I do this in automatics as well .
It prevents you from rolling into the intersection if your foot slips off the brake , unless you 're on a hill .
And if you 're on snow or ice , I 've found that being in N significantly helps with stopping .
Which kind of makes sense , if the drive wheels are n't being driven by the engine ( faster * OR * slower ) at the same time you 're trying to stop and possibly ABS is kicking in.Sean</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've never driven a car that I couldn't put in neutral at speed.
I've never driven a Prius though.
Next time I'm around one of my friends who has a Prius or Camry hybrid, I'll have to check it out.
I can't think of an automatic that I've driven where you couldn't just push the shift lever (without pushing the button), from D to N, and it would stop before hitting R.  They're designed to shift easily between N and D because, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe your owners manual recommends that you shift between N and D when you are stopping and starting.
It's just that most people don't do this, and the system handles being in D but stopped.
Now, I'm talking mostly about traditional automatics and not the fancy hybrid systems.I am in the habit, from driving a stick, to shifting into N when I stop and back into gear when I go.
So, I do this in automatics as well.
It prevents you from rolling into the intersection if your foot slips off the brake, unless you're on a hill.
And if you're on snow or ice, I've found that being in N significantly helps with stopping.
Which kind of makes sense, if the drive wheels aren't being driven by the engine (faster *OR* slower) at the same time you're trying to stop and possibly ABS is kicking in.Sean</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31350670</id>
	<title>Re:What's with these drive by wire cars?</title>
	<author>Ksevio</author>
	<datestamp>1267612020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Same reason I switched from my talking tube to cellphone for communications.  It works better.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Same reason I switched from my talking tube to cellphone for communications .
It works better .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Same reason I switched from my talking tube to cellphone for communications.
It works better.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341824</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345104</id>
	<title>Re:Solution? simple! and two of them.</title>
	<author>rrossman2</author>
	<datestamp>1267630020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You're option #2 would still retain braking power IF it's the good old fashioned vacuum based breaking system. (Not, obviously, if it was an electronic brake booster). Your option #2 as stated leaves the car in gear, so the motor would lose electrical power, but would still physically be moving since it's in gear, still creating a vacuum allowing the vacuum based break booster to still function fine.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're option # 2 would still retain braking power IF it 's the good old fashioned vacuum based breaking system .
( Not , obviously , if it was an electronic brake booster ) .
Your option # 2 as stated leaves the car in gear , so the motor would lose electrical power , but would still physically be moving since it 's in gear , still creating a vacuum allowing the vacuum based break booster to still function fine .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're option #2 would still retain braking power IF it's the good old fashioned vacuum based breaking system.
(Not, obviously, if it was an electronic brake booster).
Your option #2 as stated leaves the car in gear, so the motor would lose electrical power, but would still physically be moving since it's in gear, still creating a vacuum allowing the vacuum based break booster to still function fine.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343092</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341692</id>
	<title>Payback is a toyota</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267648860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>regards from Hiroshima and Nagasaki...</p><p>please send my</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>regards from Hiroshima and Nagasaki...please send my</tokentext>
<sentencetext>regards from Hiroshima and Nagasaki...please send my</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342554</id>
	<title>Re:Kill Switch?</title>
	<author>Hieronymus Howard</author>
	<datestamp>1267612740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A kill switch in cars will result in many hundreds of thousands of calls to breakdown services.  How many riders have called out breakdown services because their bike won't start and then been extremely embarrassed when the mechanic flicks the kill switch to the on position.  It happens all the time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A kill switch in cars will result in many hundreds of thousands of calls to breakdown services .
How many riders have called out breakdown services because their bike wo n't start and then been extremely embarrassed when the mechanic flicks the kill switch to the on position .
It happens all the time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A kill switch in cars will result in many hundreds of thousands of calls to breakdown services.
How many riders have called out breakdown services because their bike won't start and then been extremely embarrassed when the mechanic flicks the kill switch to the on position.
It happens all the time.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342026</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341624</id>
	<title>two voters</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267648380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>maybe because voting algorithms that only have two voters are total fail?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>maybe because voting algorithms that only have two voters are total fail ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>maybe because voting algorithms that only have two voters are total fail?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342088</id>
	<title>Easiest fix -- "it's not a bug, it's a feature"</title>
	<author>Jeremi</author>
	<datestamp>1267608540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"This Corolla comes with Spontaneous Drag Race Mode standard, making it the most exciting car in its class!"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" This Corolla comes with Spontaneous Drag Race Mode standard , making it the most exciting car in its class !
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"This Corolla comes with Spontaneous Drag Race Mode standard, making it the most exciting car in its class!
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341942</id>
	<title>Re:You can NOT "just put it in neutral"...</title>
	<author>Bartab</author>
	<datestamp>1267607460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>For the millionth time, you CAN put these cars into neutral at speed. I've personally done so. Your explanation of how transmissions work is not correct.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>For the millionth time , you CAN put these cars into neutral at speed .
I 've personally done so .
Your explanation of how transmissions work is not correct .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For the millionth time, you CAN put these cars into neutral at speed.
I've personally done so.
Your explanation of how transmissions work is not correct.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341666</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341770</id>
	<title>Brakes!</title>
	<author>Ihlosi</author>
	<datestamp>1267649520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"... including requiring brakes to be strong enough to stop the car even when the accelerator is floored."</p><p>Yikes. Isn't that always the case, or are they really selling cars in the US with brakes that aren't able to do this? Just for the record, lack of this ability would basically mean that the car can accelerate faster than it can decelerate, and most cars accelerate pretty darn slow.</p><p>If your brakes can't do this, get them the fsck fixed. They're broken.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" ... including requiring brakes to be strong enough to stop the car even when the accelerator is floored. " Yikes .
Is n't that always the case , or are they really selling cars in the US with brakes that are n't able to do this ?
Just for the record , lack of this ability would basically mean that the car can accelerate faster than it can decelerate , and most cars accelerate pretty darn slow.If your brakes ca n't do this , get them the fsck fixed .
They 're broken .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"... including requiring brakes to be strong enough to stop the car even when the accelerator is floored."Yikes.
Isn't that always the case, or are they really selling cars in the US with brakes that aren't able to do this?
Just for the record, lack of this ability would basically mean that the car can accelerate faster than it can decelerate, and most cars accelerate pretty darn slow.If your brakes can't do this, get them the fsck fixed.
They're broken.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31347852</id>
	<title>Re:AWESOME CONTEST!!!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267641840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Open source brakes: make the brakes you need them to be!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Open source brakes : make the brakes you need them to be !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Open source brakes: make the brakes you need them to be!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341820</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31348910</id>
	<title>I have the answer!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267646940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And it is \_not\_ cut power to the engine when the brakes are used (which could cause unexpected changes in handling which might result in a net increase in accidents).</p><p>The solution is: A big, red, EPO button in every car!</p><p>Also good for electrical fires.</p><p>When in danger, fear, or doubt,</p><p>press Emergency Power (Off)/Out!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And it is \ _not \ _ cut power to the engine when the brakes are used ( which could cause unexpected changes in handling which might result in a net increase in accidents ) .The solution is : A big , red , EPO button in every car ! Also good for electrical fires.When in danger , fear , or doubt,press Emergency Power ( Off ) /Out !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And it is \_not\_ cut power to the engine when the brakes are used (which could cause unexpected changes in handling which might result in a net increase in accidents).The solution is: A big, red, EPO button in every car!Also good for electrical fires.When in danger, fear, or doubt,press Emergency Power (Off)/Out!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341884</id>
	<title>Re:Idiocy.</title>
	<author>confused one</author>
	<datestamp>1267607040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>All modern ecm's have a rev limiter built into the software so that an engine can not destroy itself.  It will rev to redline then cut the fuel and spark.</htmltext>
<tokenext>All modern ecm 's have a rev limiter built into the software so that an engine can not destroy itself .
It will rev to redline then cut the fuel and spark .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>All modern ecm's have a rev limiter built into the software so that an engine can not destroy itself.
It will rev to redline then cut the fuel and spark.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341764</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31346842</id>
	<title>How about two throttle cables....</title>
	<author>ears\_d</author>
	<datestamp>1267637460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>....   one to open the throttle and the other to close it. The idea has been used on motorcycles for many years. The all new BMW S1000 RR has a throttle by wire system -- where the throttle plate position is controlled by a computer in response to the rider's throttle hand -- but the second cable is still connected directly to the throttle plates and will override the computer to close them.

This could be done in a cage (car) by putting a little intelligence in the throttle pedal that recognizes when the drivers foot is off the pedal which would cause the pedal to return to full up -- and pull on the second cable.

As a side benefit, a sensor in the pedal could be an input to a data recorder, which could provide data about how many of these incidents are caused by driver error.</htmltext>
<tokenext>.... one to open the throttle and the other to close it .
The idea has been used on motorcycles for many years .
The all new BMW S1000 RR has a throttle by wire system -- where the throttle plate position is controlled by a computer in response to the rider 's throttle hand -- but the second cable is still connected directly to the throttle plates and will override the computer to close them .
This could be done in a cage ( car ) by putting a little intelligence in the throttle pedal that recognizes when the drivers foot is off the pedal which would cause the pedal to return to full up -- and pull on the second cable .
As a side benefit , a sensor in the pedal could be an input to a data recorder , which could provide data about how many of these incidents are caused by driver error .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>....   one to open the throttle and the other to close it.
The idea has been used on motorcycles for many years.
The all new BMW S1000 RR has a throttle by wire system -- where the throttle plate position is controlled by a computer in response to the rider's throttle hand -- but the second cable is still connected directly to the throttle plates and will override the computer to close them.
This could be done in a cage (car) by putting a little intelligence in the throttle pedal that recognizes when the drivers foot is off the pedal which would cause the pedal to return to full up -- and pull on the second cable.
As a side benefit, a sensor in the pedal could be an input to a data recorder, which could provide data about how many of these incidents are caused by driver error.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341962</id>
	<title>Re:What's with these drive by wire cars?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267607580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's cheaper to manufacture and it's probably cheaper to design. It cuts down on moving parts so it cuts down on wear. It allows differentiation of features.</p><p>The most important - It epitomizes the holy grail of manufacturing - every piece (of software, heheheh) is identical.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's cheaper to manufacture and it 's probably cheaper to design .
It cuts down on moving parts so it cuts down on wear .
It allows differentiation of features.The most important - It epitomizes the holy grail of manufacturing - every piece ( of software , heheheh ) is identical .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's cheaper to manufacture and it's probably cheaper to design.
It cuts down on moving parts so it cuts down on wear.
It allows differentiation of features.The most important - It epitomizes the holy grail of manufacturing - every piece (of software, heheheh) is identical.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341824</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341780</id>
	<title>Cause of Unintended Acceleration</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267649520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Profit</p><p>although Ford is equally as valid an answer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Profitalthough Ford is equally as valid an answer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Profitalthough Ford is equally as valid an answer.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345676</id>
	<title>Re: If done correctly?? THAT'S THE POINT!!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267632420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Obviously, not One of the Design Engineers at ANY of the Auto manufacturers thought to require an FAA Quality Controller that had gone through infinitely more rigorous testing than the proven long term reliability and cost effectiveness of the last generations of throttle cables had. Plus, to add insult to injury, when a cable Would Break all throttle bodies would close because of their redundant springs.<br>Just another case of an Engineer being let loose without any common sense safeguards.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Obviously , not One of the Design Engineers at ANY of the Auto manufacturers thought to require an FAA Quality Controller that had gone through infinitely more rigorous testing than the proven long term reliability and cost effectiveness of the last generations of throttle cables had .
Plus , to add insult to injury , when a cable Would Break all throttle bodies would close because of their redundant springs.Just another case of an Engineer being let loose without any common sense safeguards .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Obviously, not One of the Design Engineers at ANY of the Auto manufacturers thought to require an FAA Quality Controller that had gone through infinitely more rigorous testing than the proven long term reliability and cost effectiveness of the last generations of throttle cables had.
Plus, to add insult to injury, when a cable Would Break all throttle bodies would close because of their redundant springs.Just another case of an Engineer being let loose without any common sense safeguards.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342000</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343892</id>
	<title>Re:Idiocy.</title>
	<author>jambox</author>
	<datestamp>1267623660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Or... manual transmission! 90\% of all cars in the UK are manual. They're faster, use less gas and if the engine somehow goes berserk... mr clutch pedal to the rescue.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Or... manual transmission !
90 \ % of all cars in the UK are manual .
They 're faster , use less gas and if the engine somehow goes berserk... mr clutch pedal to the rescue .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or... manual transmission!
90\% of all cars in the UK are manual.
They're faster, use less gas and if the engine somehow goes berserk... mr clutch pedal to the rescue.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341722</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341722</id>
	<title>Idiocy.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267649040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The proper response to "car accelerating on its own" is Neutral gear. Whats the problem? Nobody needs especially strong breaks.</p><p>Oh noez! The engine will revv up! Oh me oh my! The noise is skeery!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The proper response to " car accelerating on its own " is Neutral gear .
Whats the problem ?
Nobody needs especially strong breaks.Oh noez !
The engine will revv up !
Oh me oh my !
The noise is skeery !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The proper response to "car accelerating on its own" is Neutral gear.
Whats the problem?
Nobody needs especially strong breaks.Oh noez!
The engine will revv up!
Oh me oh my!
The noise is skeery!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342420</id>
	<title>Re:Solution</title>
	<author>Karem Lore</author>
	<datestamp>1267611660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't know where you learnt to drive, but unless you have 3 legs, this is already the natural case...you lift your foot off of the accelerator, hence cutting the power, to put that same foot onto the break...If you don't, you should be on a track, not the road...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't know where you learnt to drive , but unless you have 3 legs , this is already the natural case...you lift your foot off of the accelerator , hence cutting the power , to put that same foot onto the break...If you do n't , you should be on a track , not the road.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't know where you learnt to drive, but unless you have 3 legs, this is already the natural case...you lift your foot off of the accelerator, hence cutting the power, to put that same foot onto the break...If you don't, you should be on a track, not the road...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344826</id>
	<title>Re:You can NOT "just put it in neutral"...</title>
	<author>rnelsonee</author>
	<datestamp>1267628880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>While I agree 100\% that Toyota can be mechanically shifted into Neutral, what about the newer transmissions like BMW's 7-speed DCT (the joystick)? AFAIK a computer controls shifts to Neutral (as well as Park - there's no Park button on the M3/M5).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>While I agree 100 \ % that Toyota can be mechanically shifted into Neutral , what about the newer transmissions like BMW 's 7-speed DCT ( the joystick ) ?
AFAIK a computer controls shifts to Neutral ( as well as Park - there 's no Park button on the M3/M5 ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While I agree 100\% that Toyota can be mechanically shifted into Neutral, what about the newer transmissions like BMW's 7-speed DCT (the joystick)?
AFAIK a computer controls shifts to Neutral (as well as Park - there's no Park button on the M3/M5).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341688</id>
	<title>Outside the USofA???</title>
	<author>dltaylor</author>
	<datestamp>1267648860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Unless this problem is occurring in all areas where Toyota sells cars with electronic throttles, it is likely to be that Americans do not have to know how to drive in order to get a license.</p><p>If it is also occurring in those areas, why hasn't it been publicized in the USofA?  (Oh, yeah: "no parrots were killed in the plane crash").</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Unless this problem is occurring in all areas where Toyota sells cars with electronic throttles , it is likely to be that Americans do not have to know how to drive in order to get a license.If it is also occurring in those areas , why has n't it been publicized in the USofA ?
( Oh , yeah : " no parrots were killed in the plane crash " ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unless this problem is occurring in all areas where Toyota sells cars with electronic throttles, it is likely to be that Americans do not have to know how to drive in order to get a license.If it is also occurring in those areas, why hasn't it been publicized in the USofA?
(Oh, yeah: "no parrots were killed in the plane crash").</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342046</id>
	<title>Ignition break switch</title>
	<author>MichaelSmith</author>
	<datestamp>1267608240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Years ago when I was a young geek my dad was out in his boat and got chucked out when he hit a wave. The boat circled him for a while until he got a hand on the fuel hose and tugged it loose.</p><p>So the boat went back to the home workshop and acquired a reed switch and a magnet on a short length of rope. The idea is that the ignition won't work unless the magnet is attached to the body of the outboard motor. The magnet is attached to <b>you</b>.</p><p>So I think every power vehicle should have a convenient way fo switching it off. You should have to actively do something to keep it running and if you jump out or have a seizure it should just stop.</p><p>Most cars will creep forward on the torque converter when in gear with no throttle input. I think that is wrong too. The default should be for gentle braking.</p><p>Maybe the handbrake in every car should have installed below it a low tech kill switch which the driver and all passengers can reach.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Years ago when I was a young geek my dad was out in his boat and got chucked out when he hit a wave .
The boat circled him for a while until he got a hand on the fuel hose and tugged it loose.So the boat went back to the home workshop and acquired a reed switch and a magnet on a short length of rope .
The idea is that the ignition wo n't work unless the magnet is attached to the body of the outboard motor .
The magnet is attached to you.So I think every power vehicle should have a convenient way fo switching it off .
You should have to actively do something to keep it running and if you jump out or have a seizure it should just stop.Most cars will creep forward on the torque converter when in gear with no throttle input .
I think that is wrong too .
The default should be for gentle braking.Maybe the handbrake in every car should have installed below it a low tech kill switch which the driver and all passengers can reach .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Years ago when I was a young geek my dad was out in his boat and got chucked out when he hit a wave.
The boat circled him for a while until he got a hand on the fuel hose and tugged it loose.So the boat went back to the home workshop and acquired a reed switch and a magnet on a short length of rope.
The idea is that the ignition won't work unless the magnet is attached to the body of the outboard motor.
The magnet is attached to you.So I think every power vehicle should have a convenient way fo switching it off.
You should have to actively do something to keep it running and if you jump out or have a seizure it should just stop.Most cars will creep forward on the torque converter when in gear with no throttle input.
I think that is wrong too.
The default should be for gentle braking.Maybe the handbrake in every car should have installed below it a low tech kill switch which the driver and all passengers can reach.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341674</id>
	<title>Your Pedal Broke Long Ago - FIX IT</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267648680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Look at the Earth within Google Earth, see how they're sealing<br>it all up? Now they're hiking water prices which is leading people<br>to seal up their land with rocks and concrete. It's all a LIE.<br>The economy is fake, money is fake, most of our lives are ruled<br>by all of these fake human (or inhuman?) layers of complicated<br>filth! Prices for everything are going up, people are losing their<br>jobs, up go the rates for everything and the fat cats on top<br>roll in cash while we're sold out for the banks and what<br>do the people do? Well we're busy talking about the late night<br>wars and other fabrications to keep us distracted and divided.<br>Gloom and doom on the TV, drones starting into the controlled<br>box of social slavery. Read the book Bowling Alone (see Amazon)<br>to see how we're being divided more and more and isolated despite<br>our so-called technological wonders like Twitter and Facebook.<br>A society who doesn't know their neighbor unless something like<br>Katrina happens, then some people start to "awaken" to things.<br>You won't find your awakening in Hollywood, it's all carefully<br>prepared to condition you to violence and blackening the precious<br>human image of God. Praise be YHWH, praise be Jesus, praise be<br>The Holy Spirit! Switch off those televisions and get to know<br>and love your human neighbors, now.</p><p>Those in power who STEAL from us will answer to a higher power.</p><p>YOU do not OWN your homes! Fail to pay taxes and you're OUT!<br>This is the freedom? More and more THEY are dictating what<br>you can plant, what flags you can fly, where you can smoke,<br>the race to control your every move and thought is building<br>as they amass more and more data on you and your neighbors,<br>they know you and your connections better than you probably<br>do!</p><p>Take a look at these presentations and their clever mapping<br>and collection of your cell data:</p><p>Workshop on Social Computing, Behavioral Modeling, and Prediction, 2008<br>The workshop is/was sponsored by Air Force Research Laboratory (AFRL).<br><a href="http://www.public.asu.edu/~huanliu/sbp08/program.html" title="asu.edu" rel="nofollow">http://www.public.asu.edu/~huanliu/sbp08/program.html</a> [asu.edu]</p><p>Second Workshop on Social Computing, Behavioral Modeling, and Prediction, 2009<br><a href="http://www.public.asu.edu/~huanliu/sbp09/program.html" title="asu.edu" rel="nofollow">http://www.public.asu.edu/~huanliu/sbp09/program.html</a> [asu.edu]</p><p>We're being robbed from the inside, like the bees and the mites,<br>where are you going to go? Their eyes and<br>ears are in almost every home, we are divided and isn't that<br>how a nation falls? Are you sure the back of your neck<br>doesn't read: FCC Approved underneath a black light?</p><p>Peace IS the answer, by knowing and loving one another,<br>but you've been fooled to believe that's the stuff<br>of fairy tales.</p><p>And so you sleep to the tune of masturbating bears<br>and other noise.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Look at the Earth within Google Earth , see how they 're sealingit all up ?
Now they 're hiking water prices which is leading peopleto seal up their land with rocks and concrete .
It 's all a LIE.The economy is fake , money is fake , most of our lives are ruledby all of these fake human ( or inhuman ?
) layers of complicatedfilth !
Prices for everything are going up , people are losing theirjobs , up go the rates for everything and the fat cats on toproll in cash while we 're sold out for the banks and whatdo the people do ?
Well we 're busy talking about the late nightwars and other fabrications to keep us distracted and divided.Gloom and doom on the TV , drones starting into the controlledbox of social slavery .
Read the book Bowling Alone ( see Amazon ) to see how we 're being divided more and more and isolated despiteour so-called technological wonders like Twitter and Facebook.A society who does n't know their neighbor unless something likeKatrina happens , then some people start to " awaken " to things.You wo n't find your awakening in Hollywood , it 's all carefullyprepared to condition you to violence and blackening the precioushuman image of God .
Praise be YHWH , praise be Jesus , praise beThe Holy Spirit !
Switch off those televisions and get to knowand love your human neighbors , now.Those in power who STEAL from us will answer to a higher power.YOU do not OWN your homes !
Fail to pay taxes and you 're OUT ! This is the freedom ?
More and more THEY are dictating whatyou can plant , what flags you can fly , where you can smoke,the race to control your every move and thought is buildingas they amass more and more data on you and your neighbors,they know you and your connections better than you probablydo ! Take a look at these presentations and their clever mappingand collection of your cell data : Workshop on Social Computing , Behavioral Modeling , and Prediction , 2008The workshop is/was sponsored by Air Force Research Laboratory ( AFRL ) .http : //www.public.asu.edu/ ~ huanliu/sbp08/program.html [ asu.edu ] Second Workshop on Social Computing , Behavioral Modeling , and Prediction , 2009http : //www.public.asu.edu/ ~ huanliu/sbp09/program.html [ asu.edu ] We 're being robbed from the inside , like the bees and the mites,where are you going to go ?
Their eyes andears are in almost every home , we are divided and is n't thathow a nation falls ?
Are you sure the back of your neckdoes n't read : FCC Approved underneath a black light ? Peace IS the answer , by knowing and loving one another,but you 've been fooled to believe that 's the stuffof fairy tales.And so you sleep to the tune of masturbating bearsand other noise .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Look at the Earth within Google Earth, see how they're sealingit all up?
Now they're hiking water prices which is leading peopleto seal up their land with rocks and concrete.
It's all a LIE.The economy is fake, money is fake, most of our lives are ruledby all of these fake human (or inhuman?
) layers of complicatedfilth!
Prices for everything are going up, people are losing theirjobs, up go the rates for everything and the fat cats on toproll in cash while we're sold out for the banks and whatdo the people do?
Well we're busy talking about the late nightwars and other fabrications to keep us distracted and divided.Gloom and doom on the TV, drones starting into the controlledbox of social slavery.
Read the book Bowling Alone (see Amazon)to see how we're being divided more and more and isolated despiteour so-called technological wonders like Twitter and Facebook.A society who doesn't know their neighbor unless something likeKatrina happens, then some people start to "awaken" to things.You won't find your awakening in Hollywood, it's all carefullyprepared to condition you to violence and blackening the precioushuman image of God.
Praise be YHWH, praise be Jesus, praise beThe Holy Spirit!
Switch off those televisions and get to knowand love your human neighbors, now.Those in power who STEAL from us will answer to a higher power.YOU do not OWN your homes!
Fail to pay taxes and you're OUT!This is the freedom?
More and more THEY are dictating whatyou can plant, what flags you can fly, where you can smoke,the race to control your every move and thought is buildingas they amass more and more data on you and your neighbors,they know you and your connections better than you probablydo!Take a look at these presentations and their clever mappingand collection of your cell data:Workshop on Social Computing, Behavioral Modeling, and Prediction, 2008The workshop is/was sponsored by Air Force Research Laboratory (AFRL).http://www.public.asu.edu/~huanliu/sbp08/program.html [asu.edu]Second Workshop on Social Computing, Behavioral Modeling, and Prediction, 2009http://www.public.asu.edu/~huanliu/sbp09/program.html [asu.edu]We're being robbed from the inside, like the bees and the mites,where are you going to go?
Their eyes andears are in almost every home, we are divided and isn't thathow a nation falls?
Are you sure the back of your neckdoesn't read: FCC Approved underneath a black light?Peace IS the answer, by knowing and loving one another,but you've been fooled to believe that's the stuffof fairy tales.And so you sleep to the tune of masturbating bearsand other noise.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341822</id>
	<title>Misleading summary</title>
	<author>Trecares</author>
	<datestamp>1267649820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Almost all cars generate braking forces far in excess of whatever the engine is capable of putting out. Adequate brake torque isn't the problem here. If the brakes have to resist the the torque input, then their effectiveness will obviously be diminished.</p><p>The proposal of having engine power being cut off when the brakes are applied seems to be sensible, however there are certain situations where you will need both the engine power and brakes on at the same time. Such as starting from a stop on a hill. So the solution isn't that simple. The easiest thing would be to either install an switch that trips past an certain amount of brake travel, or to sense the line pressure. They can use that data and determine how hard the operator is trying to brake, along with the vehicle's current state, is it stationary, or moving, and if so, how fast? They can use that to generate parameters to decide when and if to cut out engine power. At high brake pressures, and moving at high speeds, one would not be expect to continue to accelerate. At low to moderate pressures and being stationary or barely moving, engine power should not be cut off.</p><p>Another thing they could do is install a sensor and determine if a foot is present on the accelerator or not, specifically in non-cruise conditions.</p><p>Some people apparently had trouble shifting into neutral, but that should not happen at all. I don't know if it's an issue with the transmission trying to block that action, or if it was not able to mechanically disengage due to the engine accelerating. In either case, they should change the shifter from an mechanically controlled operation to an electronic one. Being controlled electronically also makes it easier to move the shifter. If the car is shifted into neutral, that's a fairly clear indicator that the ECM should override the pedal and drop to idle, and shift into neutral.</p><p>I think it would help if there was a verbal and textual feedback system to aid the driver along with a command system.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Almost all cars generate braking forces far in excess of whatever the engine is capable of putting out .
Adequate brake torque is n't the problem here .
If the brakes have to resist the the torque input , then their effectiveness will obviously be diminished.The proposal of having engine power being cut off when the brakes are applied seems to be sensible , however there are certain situations where you will need both the engine power and brakes on at the same time .
Such as starting from a stop on a hill .
So the solution is n't that simple .
The easiest thing would be to either install an switch that trips past an certain amount of brake travel , or to sense the line pressure .
They can use that data and determine how hard the operator is trying to brake , along with the vehicle 's current state , is it stationary , or moving , and if so , how fast ?
They can use that to generate parameters to decide when and if to cut out engine power .
At high brake pressures , and moving at high speeds , one would not be expect to continue to accelerate .
At low to moderate pressures and being stationary or barely moving , engine power should not be cut off.Another thing they could do is install a sensor and determine if a foot is present on the accelerator or not , specifically in non-cruise conditions.Some people apparently had trouble shifting into neutral , but that should not happen at all .
I do n't know if it 's an issue with the transmission trying to block that action , or if it was not able to mechanically disengage due to the engine accelerating .
In either case , they should change the shifter from an mechanically controlled operation to an electronic one .
Being controlled electronically also makes it easier to move the shifter .
If the car is shifted into neutral , that 's a fairly clear indicator that the ECM should override the pedal and drop to idle , and shift into neutral.I think it would help if there was a verbal and textual feedback system to aid the driver along with a command system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Almost all cars generate braking forces far in excess of whatever the engine is capable of putting out.
Adequate brake torque isn't the problem here.
If the brakes have to resist the the torque input, then their effectiveness will obviously be diminished.The proposal of having engine power being cut off when the brakes are applied seems to be sensible, however there are certain situations where you will need both the engine power and brakes on at the same time.
Such as starting from a stop on a hill.
So the solution isn't that simple.
The easiest thing would be to either install an switch that trips past an certain amount of brake travel, or to sense the line pressure.
They can use that data and determine how hard the operator is trying to brake, along with the vehicle's current state, is it stationary, or moving, and if so, how fast?
They can use that to generate parameters to decide when and if to cut out engine power.
At high brake pressures, and moving at high speeds, one would not be expect to continue to accelerate.
At low to moderate pressures and being stationary or barely moving, engine power should not be cut off.Another thing they could do is install a sensor and determine if a foot is present on the accelerator or not, specifically in non-cruise conditions.Some people apparently had trouble shifting into neutral, but that should not happen at all.
I don't know if it's an issue with the transmission trying to block that action, or if it was not able to mechanically disengage due to the engine accelerating.
In either case, they should change the shifter from an mechanically controlled operation to an electronic one.
Being controlled electronically also makes it easier to move the shifter.
If the car is shifted into neutral, that's a fairly clear indicator that the ECM should override the pedal and drop to idle, and shift into neutral.I think it would help if there was a verbal and textual feedback system to aid the driver along with a command system.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344132</id>
	<title>Re:Me thinks</title>
	<author>kannibal\_klown</author>
	<datestamp>1267625340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>.. the problem is between the pedals and the seat, morons.</p></div><p>How does the parent comment quality as a Score: 5 Insightful?</p><p>I'll admit, some of the people that've experienced this might have accidentally touched the accelerator with the side of their shoe or something.  I did that once in my life after putting on an new + uncomfortable pair of shoes, fortunately nothing happened as a result since it was on my driveway.</p><p>Then again on another car I also had a major problem with my throttle assembly.  The dealer refused to acknowledge there even was a problem until I got in the car with them.  After a couple of visits they said the sensor on the throttle assembly was sending bad data making the car think I was doing something else with the throttle than I actually was.</p><p>I imagine a human is involved: either an engineer made a mistake or a bean counter adjusted something.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>.. the problem is between the pedals and the seat , morons.How does the parent comment quality as a Score : 5 Insightful ? I 'll admit , some of the people that 've experienced this might have accidentally touched the accelerator with the side of their shoe or something .
I did that once in my life after putting on an new + uncomfortable pair of shoes , fortunately nothing happened as a result since it was on my driveway.Then again on another car I also had a major problem with my throttle assembly .
The dealer refused to acknowledge there even was a problem until I got in the car with them .
After a couple of visits they said the sensor on the throttle assembly was sending bad data making the car think I was doing something else with the throttle than I actually was.I imagine a human is involved : either an engineer made a mistake or a bean counter adjusted something .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>.. the problem is between the pedals and the seat, morons.How does the parent comment quality as a Score: 5 Insightful?I'll admit, some of the people that've experienced this might have accidentally touched the accelerator with the side of their shoe or something.
I did that once in my life after putting on an new + uncomfortable pair of shoes, fortunately nothing happened as a result since it was on my driveway.Then again on another car I also had a major problem with my throttle assembly.
The dealer refused to acknowledge there even was a problem until I got in the car with them.
After a couple of visits they said the sensor on the throttle assembly was sending bad data making the car think I was doing something else with the throttle than I actually was.I imagine a human is involved: either an engineer made a mistake or a bean counter adjusted something.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341558</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345532</id>
	<title>What About Stops On Hills?</title>
	<author>littlewink</author>
	<datestamp>1267632000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When at a stop while driving uphill a common technique is to use the left foot to control the brake and the right to control the throttle. When the light changes to green, you don't let off the brake until the throttle has been opened sufficiently to prevent the car from rolling backwards. If you don't use this technique then, when you lift your foot from the brake, the car rolls backwards! Note that this is done only in this particular circumstance and that, in general, it is dangerous to drive using both feet. This is a rare instance where it is unsafe to drive without using both feet.

</p><p>With the proposed modified software, this will no longer be possible. So on a hillside stop your car may roll backward into following cars because any brake pedal pressure whatsoever will reduce throttle to 0. What is worse, pedestrians skipping between cars may be crushed. Please convince me I am wrong.

</p><p>There are advantages to the "analog" feedback present in the drivetrain of older cars that lack software control.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When at a stop while driving uphill a common technique is to use the left foot to control the brake and the right to control the throttle .
When the light changes to green , you do n't let off the brake until the throttle has been opened sufficiently to prevent the car from rolling backwards .
If you do n't use this technique then , when you lift your foot from the brake , the car rolls backwards !
Note that this is done only in this particular circumstance and that , in general , it is dangerous to drive using both feet .
This is a rare instance where it is unsafe to drive without using both feet .
With the proposed modified software , this will no longer be possible .
So on a hillside stop your car may roll backward into following cars because any brake pedal pressure whatsoever will reduce throttle to 0 .
What is worse , pedestrians skipping between cars may be crushed .
Please convince me I am wrong .
There are advantages to the " analog " feedback present in the drivetrain of older cars that lack software control .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When at a stop while driving uphill a common technique is to use the left foot to control the brake and the right to control the throttle.
When the light changes to green, you don't let off the brake until the throttle has been opened sufficiently to prevent the car from rolling backwards.
If you don't use this technique then, when you lift your foot from the brake, the car rolls backwards!
Note that this is done only in this particular circumstance and that, in general, it is dangerous to drive using both feet.
This is a rare instance where it is unsafe to drive without using both feet.
With the proposed modified software, this will no longer be possible.
So on a hillside stop your car may roll backward into following cars because any brake pedal pressure whatsoever will reduce throttle to 0.
What is worse, pedestrians skipping between cars may be crushed.
Please convince me I am wrong.
There are advantages to the "analog" feedback present in the drivetrain of older cars that lack software control.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345864</id>
	<title>Re:All cars already have this system</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267633200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>On some cars, you cannot select neutral while accelerating, or you can select it but not get it.  The interlock, I assume, is to protect the engine.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>On some cars , you can not select neutral while accelerating , or you can select it but not get it .
The interlock , I assume , is to protect the engine .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On some cars, you cannot select neutral while accelerating, or you can select it but not get it.
The interlock, I assume, is to protect the engine.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341790</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31353814</id>
	<title>Re:Give us the source</title>
	<author>sapgau</author>
	<datestamp>1267630920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So true! Working with threads is not always simple.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So true !
Working with threads is not always simple .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So true!
Working with threads is not always simple.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341766</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31347390</id>
	<title>obviously ...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267639500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>the reason  for "the cause of unintended acceleration"<br>is drunkenness. with all that ethanol going into the car,<br>i'd get light-headed too.<br>STOP making the cars DRUNK!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>the reason for " the cause of unintended acceleration " is drunkenness .
with all that ethanol going into the car,i 'd get light-headed too.STOP making the cars DRUNK !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>the reason  for "the cause of unintended acceleration"is drunkenness.
with all that ethanol going into the car,i'd get light-headed too.STOP making the cars DRUNK!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344720</id>
	<title>Re:Me thinks</title>
	<author>Jurily</author>
	<datestamp>1267628340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Repeat until it sinks in: you're not the only one on the road.</p><p>I'd rather pay more and survive.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Repeat until it sinks in : you 're not the only one on the road.I 'd rather pay more and survive .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Repeat until it sinks in: you're not the only one on the road.I'd rather pay more and survive.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341592</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31346010</id>
	<title>Re:Kill Switch?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267633800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Electronic stability control is nice but what it does in 99\% of the cases : lets you drive faster than what the road conditions permit.<br>People should simply slow down when driving conditions are not perfect...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Electronic stability control is nice but what it does in 99 \ % of the cases : lets you drive faster than what the road conditions permit.People should simply slow down when driving conditions are not perfect.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Electronic stability control is nice but what it does in 99\% of the cases : lets you drive faster than what the road conditions permit.People should simply slow down when driving conditions are not perfect...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342400</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344396</id>
	<title>drive by wire = death</title>
	<author>Blymie</author>
	<datestamp>1267626720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well here's a hint.</p><p>ELECTRONIC, DRIVE BY WIRE WILL NEVER EVER EVER BE AS SAFE AS A THROTTLE CABLE!</p><p>A throttle cable is 100 years old, has been tested for every contingency, provides completely accurate feedback as to the state of the control (as in, you can tell if it is getting sticky, or if it is stuck with utter accuracy).</p><p>Drive by wire?  Welcome to millions of lines of code, which changes multiple times per year (updates for various issues flashed at the dealer), and which is completely revamped for every new model of car, and every new generation of a model!</p><p>It's *absurd*.</p><p>There is *no reason* for drive by wire, except:</p><p>1) to save car manufacturers $10 per car<br>2) to enable remote disabling of cars!</p><p>That's it!  It's all about saving tiny amounts of money, at massive risk to consumers.</p><p>Hell, it's bad enough that ABS is on cars, which increases braking distance (all circumstances!), sometimes by a factor of 3x (gravel, deep snow)!  It's bad enough that car manufacturers replace a proper differential, with "electronic differential lock", which means the car wears out your brakes, creating an inferior, fake diff, which can even prevent people from climbing gravel hills a standard diff has no issues with!</p><p>I own a $35k VW, and its braking and handling was INFERIOR to a TWENTY YEAR OLDER CAR, until I disabled ABS, and installed a real diff into the same.  Worse, that new VW is a turbo, and *TAKES OFF LIKE A ROCKET* when commanded.. but again.. has inferior braking and handling ability?!</p><p>There is not one single electronic control system on a car, that provides *ANY* compelling reason to use it, when compared with the disadvantages.</p><p>That is, unless you're a GREEDY car company, that wants to REDUCE THEIR COSTS by integrating electronic control systems into cars.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well here 's a hint.ELECTRONIC , DRIVE BY WIRE WILL NEVER EVER EVER BE AS SAFE AS A THROTTLE CABLE ! A throttle cable is 100 years old , has been tested for every contingency , provides completely accurate feedback as to the state of the control ( as in , you can tell if it is getting sticky , or if it is stuck with utter accuracy ) .Drive by wire ?
Welcome to millions of lines of code , which changes multiple times per year ( updates for various issues flashed at the dealer ) , and which is completely revamped for every new model of car , and every new generation of a model ! It 's * absurd * .There is * no reason * for drive by wire , except : 1 ) to save car manufacturers $ 10 per car2 ) to enable remote disabling of cars ! That 's it !
It 's all about saving tiny amounts of money , at massive risk to consumers.Hell , it 's bad enough that ABS is on cars , which increases braking distance ( all circumstances !
) , sometimes by a factor of 3x ( gravel , deep snow ) !
It 's bad enough that car manufacturers replace a proper differential , with " electronic differential lock " , which means the car wears out your brakes , creating an inferior , fake diff , which can even prevent people from climbing gravel hills a standard diff has no issues with ! I own a $ 35k VW , and its braking and handling was INFERIOR to a TWENTY YEAR OLDER CAR , until I disabled ABS , and installed a real diff into the same .
Worse , that new VW is a turbo , and * TAKES OFF LIKE A ROCKET * when commanded.. but again.. has inferior braking and handling ability ?
! There is not one single electronic control system on a car , that provides * ANY * compelling reason to use it , when compared with the disadvantages.That is , unless you 're a GREEDY car company , that wants to REDUCE THEIR COSTS by integrating electronic control systems into cars .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well here's a hint.ELECTRONIC, DRIVE BY WIRE WILL NEVER EVER EVER BE AS SAFE AS A THROTTLE CABLE!A throttle cable is 100 years old, has been tested for every contingency, provides completely accurate feedback as to the state of the control (as in, you can tell if it is getting sticky, or if it is stuck with utter accuracy).Drive by wire?
Welcome to millions of lines of code, which changes multiple times per year (updates for various issues flashed at the dealer), and which is completely revamped for every new model of car, and every new generation of a model!It's *absurd*.There is *no reason* for drive by wire, except:1) to save car manufacturers $10 per car2) to enable remote disabling of cars!That's it!
It's all about saving tiny amounts of money, at massive risk to consumers.Hell, it's bad enough that ABS is on cars, which increases braking distance (all circumstances!
), sometimes by a factor of 3x (gravel, deep snow)!
It's bad enough that car manufacturers replace a proper differential, with "electronic differential lock", which means the car wears out your brakes, creating an inferior, fake diff, which can even prevent people from climbing gravel hills a standard diff has no issues with!I own a $35k VW, and its braking and handling was INFERIOR to a TWENTY YEAR OLDER CAR, until I disabled ABS, and installed a real diff into the same.
Worse, that new VW is a turbo, and *TAKES OFF LIKE A ROCKET* when commanded.. but again.. has inferior braking and handling ability?
!There is not one single electronic control system on a car, that provides *ANY* compelling reason to use it, when compared with the disadvantages.That is, unless you're a GREEDY car company, that wants to REDUCE THEIR COSTS by integrating electronic control systems into cars.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341616</id>
	<title>"The" cause</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267648320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Okay, I'll save them a million right here. "The" cause is that humans make mistakes. Cars are designed, assembled, and operated by humans.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Okay , I 'll save them a million right here .
" The " cause is that humans make mistakes .
Cars are designed , assembled , and operated by humans .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Okay, I'll save them a million right here.
"The" cause is that humans make mistakes.
Cars are designed, assembled, and operated by humans.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341766</id>
	<title>Give us the source</title>
	<author>invalid-access</author>
	<datestamp>1267649460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Never mind the million dollars, give us the source to all the drive-by-wire modules so we can find the race condition (literally!) for you.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Never mind the million dollars , give us the source to all the drive-by-wire modules so we can find the race condition ( literally !
) for you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Never mind the million dollars, give us the source to all the drive-by-wire modules so we can find the race condition (literally!
) for you.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31346448</id>
	<title>Re:"The" cause</title>
	<author>fullfactorial</author>
	<datestamp>1267635780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>"The" cause is that humans make mistakes.</p></div><p>The "flawed human" defense works great for lawyers and TV dramas, but I am always surprised and disappointed when I hear it from engineering types. The problem with that argument is that <i>you can't do anything to fix it!</i>
</p><p>I suggest you read up on <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human\_factors" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">Human Factors Engineering</a> [wikipedia.org]. Take a systems approach and you will find that humans are a component like any other, with measurable tolerances and response ranges. One of the best human factors success stories is <a href="http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero\_08/human\_textonly.html" title="boeing.com" rel="nofollow">aviation safety</a> [boeing.com]. Most FAA incident reports still include "pilot error," but also instrument design, automation design, training, schedule-induced fatigue, and other things you can actually change to reduce the likelihood of that incident happening again.
</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" The " cause is that humans make mistakes.The " flawed human " defense works great for lawyers and TV dramas , but I am always surprised and disappointed when I hear it from engineering types .
The problem with that argument is that you ca n't do anything to fix it !
I suggest you read up on Human Factors Engineering [ wikipedia.org ] .
Take a systems approach and you will find that humans are a component like any other , with measurable tolerances and response ranges .
One of the best human factors success stories is aviation safety [ boeing.com ] .
Most FAA incident reports still include " pilot error , " but also instrument design , automation design , training , schedule-induced fatigue , and other things you can actually change to reduce the likelihood of that incident happening again .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"The" cause is that humans make mistakes.The "flawed human" defense works great for lawyers and TV dramas, but I am always surprised and disappointed when I hear it from engineering types.
The problem with that argument is that you can't do anything to fix it!
I suggest you read up on Human Factors Engineering [wikipedia.org].
Take a systems approach and you will find that humans are a component like any other, with measurable tolerances and response ranges.
One of the best human factors success stories is aviation safety [boeing.com].
Most FAA incident reports still include "pilot error," but also instrument design, automation design, training, schedule-induced fatigue, and other things you can actually change to reduce the likelihood of that incident happening again.

	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341616</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31347164</id>
	<title>Re:All cars already have this system</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267638660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You then lose the capability to gear-lock, or use "engine-breaking". (Equivalent to how the car slows down when you shift down to a lower gear)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You then lose the capability to gear-lock , or use " engine-breaking " .
( Equivalent to how the car slows down when you shift down to a lower gear )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You then lose the capability to gear-lock, or use "engine-breaking".
(Equivalent to how the car slows down when you shift down to a lower gear)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341790</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341948</id>
	<title>Fifth force causing unintended acceleration</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267607520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm just wildly speculating here, but I think it's the same fifth force that's causing Pioneer to slow down and Voyager to speed up.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm just wildly speculating here , but I think it 's the same fifth force that 's causing Pioneer to slow down and Voyager to speed up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm just wildly speculating here, but I think it's the same fifth force that's causing Pioneer to slow down and Voyager to speed up.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342388</id>
	<title>Re:Kill Switch?</title>
	<author>sl149q</author>
	<datestamp>1267611480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Its not complicated. But accidental use of same would probably kill more people every year than not having it.</p><p>What does a car need computing power for? Fuel economy for one.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Its not complicated .
But accidental use of same would probably kill more people every year than not having it.What does a car need computing power for ?
Fuel economy for one .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Its not complicated.
But accidental use of same would probably kill more people every year than not having it.What does a car need computing power for?
Fuel economy for one.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342026</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343012</id>
	<title>Not only fly-by-wire</title>
	<author>pev</author>
	<datestamp>1267617000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Bear in mind that this isn't a *new* phenomenon directly related to embedded processors and fly-by-wire. About 20 years ago I was in a van with my Auntie when the same thing happened (her old van had a proper carburettor) what happened? A small twig had got under the bonnet and blown up near the throttle cable. When she accelerated full to overtake someone it dropped in place next to the linkage and wedged the throttle open. Luckily this was on the motorway so disaster averted.</p><p>If my lovely 65 year old Auntie can figure out to drop the clutch, go into neutral and use the brakes I don't know why anyone else can't!</p><p>P.S. Pulling the key is a really bad idea as you'll lock the steering which is basically asking to die at speed!</p><p>~Pev</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Bear in mind that this is n't a * new * phenomenon directly related to embedded processors and fly-by-wire .
About 20 years ago I was in a van with my Auntie when the same thing happened ( her old van had a proper carburettor ) what happened ?
A small twig had got under the bonnet and blown up near the throttle cable .
When she accelerated full to overtake someone it dropped in place next to the linkage and wedged the throttle open .
Luckily this was on the motorway so disaster averted.If my lovely 65 year old Auntie can figure out to drop the clutch , go into neutral and use the brakes I do n't know why anyone else ca n't ! P.S .
Pulling the key is a really bad idea as you 'll lock the steering which is basically asking to die at speed ! ~ Pev</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Bear in mind that this isn't a *new* phenomenon directly related to embedded processors and fly-by-wire.
About 20 years ago I was in a van with my Auntie when the same thing happened (her old van had a proper carburettor) what happened?
A small twig had got under the bonnet and blown up near the throttle cable.
When she accelerated full to overtake someone it dropped in place next to the linkage and wedged the throttle open.
Luckily this was on the motorway so disaster averted.If my lovely 65 year old Auntie can figure out to drop the clutch, go into neutral and use the brakes I don't know why anyone else can't!P.S.
Pulling the key is a really bad idea as you'll lock the steering which is basically asking to die at speed!~Pev</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31345898</id>
	<title>The problem is in the firmware...</title>
	<author>rclandrum</author>
	<datestamp>1267633380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem was introduced when software was inserted between the driver and the throttle.  The amount of code and it's dependency on external sensors means that it is virtually impossible to test all possible scenarios - i.e. there are bugs in the code that can remain undetected right up to the point where the computer goes batshit and drives the poor passengers off a cliff.</p><p>If you really, really want to eliminate the software as a source of the problem, go back to a direct linkage between pedal and throttle - no more drive-by-wire.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem was introduced when software was inserted between the driver and the throttle .
The amount of code and it 's dependency on external sensors means that it is virtually impossible to test all possible scenarios - i.e .
there are bugs in the code that can remain undetected right up to the point where the computer goes batshit and drives the poor passengers off a cliff.If you really , really want to eliminate the software as a source of the problem , go back to a direct linkage between pedal and throttle - no more drive-by-wire .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem was introduced when software was inserted between the driver and the throttle.
The amount of code and it's dependency on external sensors means that it is virtually impossible to test all possible scenarios - i.e.
there are bugs in the code that can remain undetected right up to the point where the computer goes batshit and drives the poor passengers off a cliff.If you really, really want to eliminate the software as a source of the problem, go back to a direct linkage between pedal and throttle - no more drive-by-wire.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31346274</id>
	<title>Re:Solution</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267635060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We already have implemented an even better solution: it's called a clutch.</p><p>Don't want the <i>engine</i> to accelerate the <i>car</i> uncontrollably to your doom? A quick press of your left foot and everything's peachy.</p><p>I'll take that $1M now, thank you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We already have implemented an even better solution : it 's called a clutch.Do n't want the engine to accelerate the car uncontrollably to your doom ?
A quick press of your left foot and everything 's peachy.I 'll take that $ 1M now , thank you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We already have implemented an even better solution: it's called a clutch.Don't want the engine to accelerate the car uncontrollably to your doom?
A quick press of your left foot and everything's peachy.I'll take that $1M now, thank you.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341696</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341776</id>
	<title>Re:Idiocy.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267649520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>pushbutton shifter.  many of these cars won't go into neutral while moving.  etc.</p><p>you're the skeery one.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>pushbutton shifter .
many of these cars wo n't go into neutral while moving .
etc.you 're the skeery one .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>pushbutton shifter.
many of these cars won't go into neutral while moving.
etc.you're the skeery one.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341722</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344324</id>
	<title>Verification Skills</title>
	<author>TimeZone</author>
	<datestamp>1267626360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think part of the problem is that these companies really don't have expertise in computer systems.  For ages, they've been building mechanical doo-hickeys, and I think they've got a pretty good idea how to build and test mechanical doo-hickeys.  But now they're throwing computer systems on everything and just going with it (like the bulk of other software companies).  Guess what.  Computer systems (we're talking here a combination of hardware and software) require testing.  Lots and LOTS of testing.  I believe they don't have the expertise they need for that.  I remember when I graduated from college (2001), I stopped at the Honda booth at the career fair and tried to talk to them.  "Oh, we're looking for mechanical engineers, we don't really need computer engineers."  "Really?  With the increased computer control you're building into your vehicles, you don't need computer engineers?  ok, then..."  And this is what you get when you have mechanical engineers throw together software to control your vehicles.
<p>
TZ</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think part of the problem is that these companies really do n't have expertise in computer systems .
For ages , they 've been building mechanical doo-hickeys , and I think they 've got a pretty good idea how to build and test mechanical doo-hickeys .
But now they 're throwing computer systems on everything and just going with it ( like the bulk of other software companies ) .
Guess what .
Computer systems ( we 're talking here a combination of hardware and software ) require testing .
Lots and LOTS of testing .
I believe they do n't have the expertise they need for that .
I remember when I graduated from college ( 2001 ) , I stopped at the Honda booth at the career fair and tried to talk to them .
" Oh , we 're looking for mechanical engineers , we do n't really need computer engineers .
" " Really ?
With the increased computer control you 're building into your vehicles , you do n't need computer engineers ?
ok , then... " And this is what you get when you have mechanical engineers throw together software to control your vehicles .
TZ</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think part of the problem is that these companies really don't have expertise in computer systems.
For ages, they've been building mechanical doo-hickeys, and I think they've got a pretty good idea how to build and test mechanical doo-hickeys.
But now they're throwing computer systems on everything and just going with it (like the bulk of other software companies).
Guess what.
Computer systems (we're talking here a combination of hardware and software) require testing.
Lots and LOTS of testing.
I believe they don't have the expertise they need for that.
I remember when I graduated from college (2001), I stopped at the Honda booth at the career fair and tried to talk to them.
"Oh, we're looking for mechanical engineers, we don't really need computer engineers.
"  "Really?
With the increased computer control you're building into your vehicles, you don't need computer engineers?
ok, then..."  And this is what you get when you have mechanical engineers throw together software to control your vehicles.
TZ</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341920</id>
	<title>You are mapped like bits of cereal in a bowl</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267607340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sociometric Badges - MIT Media Laboratory -<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.pdf files<br>A sociometric badge (commonly known as "sociometer") is a device whose main purpose is to automatically capture individual and collective patterns of behavior. We have built several hundred sociometric badges and used them in real organizations to automatically measure individual and collective patterns of behavior, predict human behavior from unconscious social signals, identify social affinity among individuals working in the same team, and enhance social interactions by providing feedback to the users of our system.<br><a href="http://hd.media.mit.edu/badges/" title="mit.edu" rel="nofollow">http://hd.media.mit.edu/badges/</a> [mit.edu]</p><p>Group Media @ MIT<br><a href="http://groupmedia.media.mit.edu/" title="mit.edu" rel="nofollow">http://groupmedia.media.mit.edu/</a> [mit.edu]</p><p>Reality Mining (@ MIT) defines the collection of machine-sensed environmental data pertaining to human social behavior. This new paradigm of data mining makes possible the modeling of conversation context, proximity sensing, and temporospatial location throughout large communities of individuals. Mobile phones (and similarly innocuous devices) are used for data collection, opening social network analysis to new methods of empirical stochastic modeling.<br>
&nbsp; The original Reality Mining experiment is one of the largest mobile phone projects attempted in academia. Our research agenda takes advantage of the increasingly widespread use of mobile phones to provide insight into the dynamics of both individual and group behavior. By leveraging recent advances in machine learning we are building generative models that can be used to predict what a single user will do next, as well as model behavior of large organizations.<br>
&nbsp; We have captured communication, proximity, location, and activity information from 100 subjects at MIT over the course of the 2004-2005 academic year. This data represents over 350,000 hours (~40 years) of continuous data on human behavior. Such rich data on complex social systems have implications for a variety of fields.<br><a href="http://reality.media.mit.edu/" title="mit.edu" rel="nofollow">http://reality.media.mit.edu/</a> [mit.edu]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sociometric Badges - MIT Media Laboratory - .pdf filesA sociometric badge ( commonly known as " sociometer " ) is a device whose main purpose is to automatically capture individual and collective patterns of behavior .
We have built several hundred sociometric badges and used them in real organizations to automatically measure individual and collective patterns of behavior , predict human behavior from unconscious social signals , identify social affinity among individuals working in the same team , and enhance social interactions by providing feedback to the users of our system.http : //hd.media.mit.edu/badges/ [ mit.edu ] Group Media @ MIThttp : //groupmedia.media.mit.edu/ [ mit.edu ] Reality Mining ( @ MIT ) defines the collection of machine-sensed environmental data pertaining to human social behavior .
This new paradigm of data mining makes possible the modeling of conversation context , proximity sensing , and temporospatial location throughout large communities of individuals .
Mobile phones ( and similarly innocuous devices ) are used for data collection , opening social network analysis to new methods of empirical stochastic modeling .
  The original Reality Mining experiment is one of the largest mobile phone projects attempted in academia .
Our research agenda takes advantage of the increasingly widespread use of mobile phones to provide insight into the dynamics of both individual and group behavior .
By leveraging recent advances in machine learning we are building generative models that can be used to predict what a single user will do next , as well as model behavior of large organizations .
  We have captured communication , proximity , location , and activity information from 100 subjects at MIT over the course of the 2004-2005 academic year .
This data represents over 350,000 hours ( ~ 40 years ) of continuous data on human behavior .
Such rich data on complex social systems have implications for a variety of fields.http : //reality.media.mit.edu/ [ mit.edu ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sociometric Badges - MIT Media Laboratory - .pdf filesA sociometric badge (commonly known as "sociometer") is a device whose main purpose is to automatically capture individual and collective patterns of behavior.
We have built several hundred sociometric badges and used them in real organizations to automatically measure individual and collective patterns of behavior, predict human behavior from unconscious social signals, identify social affinity among individuals working in the same team, and enhance social interactions by providing feedback to the users of our system.http://hd.media.mit.edu/badges/ [mit.edu]Group Media @ MIThttp://groupmedia.media.mit.edu/ [mit.edu]Reality Mining (@ MIT) defines the collection of machine-sensed environmental data pertaining to human social behavior.
This new paradigm of data mining makes possible the modeling of conversation context, proximity sensing, and temporospatial location throughout large communities of individuals.
Mobile phones (and similarly innocuous devices) are used for data collection, opening social network analysis to new methods of empirical stochastic modeling.
  The original Reality Mining experiment is one of the largest mobile phone projects attempted in academia.
Our research agenda takes advantage of the increasingly widespread use of mobile phones to provide insight into the dynamics of both individual and group behavior.
By leveraging recent advances in machine learning we are building generative models that can be used to predict what a single user will do next, as well as model behavior of large organizations.
  We have captured communication, proximity, location, and activity information from 100 subjects at MIT over the course of the 2004-2005 academic year.
This data represents over 350,000 hours (~40 years) of continuous data on human behavior.
Such rich data on complex social systems have implications for a variety of fields.http://reality.media.mit.edu/ [mit.edu]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344518</id>
	<title>All about the data</title>
	<author>toomanyairmiles</author>
	<datestamp>1267627320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This is from a new york times story:

"Of the 12,700 National Highway Traffic Safety Administration consumer complaints analyzed [about unintended acceleration] by The Times, the Ford Motor Company had the most, about 3,500.

Toyota ranked second, with about 3,000 complaints, but those were linked to far more accidents &mdash; 1,000 &mdash; compared to 450 crashes for Ford.

All told, from 2000 through 2009, Toyota had one speed-control crash complaint per 20,454 vehicles sold in the United States. Ford had one complaint per 64,679 vehicles. Honda had one per 70,112 and G.M. one per 179,821."

Even if you're a sceptic this figures suggest there is a problem!</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is from a new york times story : " Of the 12,700 National Highway Traffic Safety Administration consumer complaints analyzed [ about unintended acceleration ] by The Times , the Ford Motor Company had the most , about 3,500 .
Toyota ranked second , with about 3,000 complaints , but those were linked to far more accidents    1,000    compared to 450 crashes for Ford .
All told , from 2000 through 2009 , Toyota had one speed-control crash complaint per 20,454 vehicles sold in the United States .
Ford had one complaint per 64,679 vehicles .
Honda had one per 70,112 and G.M .
one per 179,821 .
" Even if you 're a sceptic this figures suggest there is a problem !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is from a new york times story:

"Of the 12,700 National Highway Traffic Safety Administration consumer complaints analyzed [about unintended acceleration] by The Times, the Ford Motor Company had the most, about 3,500.
Toyota ranked second, with about 3,000 complaints, but those were linked to far more accidents — 1,000 — compared to 450 crashes for Ford.
All told, from 2000 through 2009, Toyota had one speed-control crash complaint per 20,454 vehicles sold in the United States.
Ford had one complaint per 64,679 vehicles.
Honda had one per 70,112 and G.M.
one per 179,821.
"

Even if you're a sceptic this figures suggest there is a problem!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343092</id>
	<title>Solution? simple! and two of them.</title>
	<author>Moskit</author>
	<datestamp>1267617660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>1) Make manual gearboxes obligatory.<br>If car "runaways", just press clutch to disconnect engine from wheels, pust stick in neutral, voila!</p><p>2) Make car key really break circuit and cut off ignition.<br>If car "runaways", turn the key to interrupt engine. This method has side effects - steering assistance will turn off. Braking assistance should work just long enough for emergency braking.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>1 ) Make manual gearboxes obligatory.If car " runaways " , just press clutch to disconnect engine from wheels , pust stick in neutral , voila ! 2 ) Make car key really break circuit and cut off ignition.If car " runaways " , turn the key to interrupt engine .
This method has side effects - steering assistance will turn off .
Braking assistance should work just long enough for emergency braking .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>1) Make manual gearboxes obligatory.If car "runaways", just press clutch to disconnect engine from wheels, pust stick in neutral, voila!2) Make car key really break circuit and cut off ignition.If car "runaways", turn the key to interrupt engine.
This method has side effects - steering assistance will turn off.
Braking assistance should work just long enough for emergency braking.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31349876</id>
	<title>Re:You can NOT "just put it in neutral"...</title>
	<author>ooloogi</author>
	<datestamp>1267608240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There's no reason to shift into neutral for normal stopping.  The torque converter is designed for it to operate in this way, and results in no mechanical wear.  In contrast, shifting in and out of neutral puts wear on the bands and clutches in the transmission.</p><p>On of the uses of neutral is so you can re-start the engine while the car is still moving.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's no reason to shift into neutral for normal stopping .
The torque converter is designed for it to operate in this way , and results in no mechanical wear .
In contrast , shifting in and out of neutral puts wear on the bands and clutches in the transmission.On of the uses of neutral is so you can re-start the engine while the car is still moving .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's no reason to shift into neutral for normal stopping.
The torque converter is designed for it to operate in this way, and results in no mechanical wear.
In contrast, shifting in and out of neutral puts wear on the bands and clutches in the transmission.On of the uses of neutral is so you can re-start the engine while the car is still moving.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31343840</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31356742</id>
	<title>I can think of a possible cause</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267709160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Alcohol?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Alcohol ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Alcohol?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344840</id>
	<title>Re:You can NOT "just put it in neutral"...</title>
	<author>putaro</author>
	<datestamp>1267628940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why do you believe that you can do it if the electronics are malfunctioning?  There is a big difference between old transmissions that had a mechanical linkage between the shifter and the gears and a fully electronic transmission where all you're doing is moving a switch.</p><p>Why do you believe that the switched and connection between the switches and the transmission and the control code in the transmission are perfect?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why do you believe that you can do it if the electronics are malfunctioning ?
There is a big difference between old transmissions that had a mechanical linkage between the shifter and the gears and a fully electronic transmission where all you 're doing is moving a switch.Why do you believe that the switched and connection between the switches and the transmission and the control code in the transmission are perfect ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why do you believe that you can do it if the electronics are malfunctioning?
There is a big difference between old transmissions that had a mechanical linkage between the shifter and the gears and a fully electronic transmission where all you're doing is moving a switch.Why do you believe that the switched and connection between the switches and the transmission and the control code in the transmission are perfect?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31342750</id>
	<title>Re:What's with these drive by wire cars?</title>
	<author>Bertie</author>
	<datestamp>1267614480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Helps with the engine management and hence fuel economy.  Instead of just dumping fuel into the engine every time you press the accelerator and expecting the combustion process to sort it all out, the electronics interpret your intentions in the context of what the engine's up to at the time, and deliver no more fuel than is necessary.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Helps with the engine management and hence fuel economy .
Instead of just dumping fuel into the engine every time you press the accelerator and expecting the combustion process to sort it all out , the electronics interpret your intentions in the context of what the engine 's up to at the time , and deliver no more fuel than is necessary .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Helps with the engine management and hence fuel economy.
Instead of just dumping fuel into the engine every time you press the accelerator and expecting the combustion process to sort it all out, the electronics interpret your intentions in the context of what the engine's up to at the time, and deliver no more fuel than is necessary.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31341824</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_03_02_233246.31344082</id>
	<title>Ah definitive proof of driver stupidity</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267624980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It seems it affects Audi drivers.</p><p>Four Sprung Pork Technic!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It seems it affects Audi drivers.Four Sprung Pork Technic !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It seems it affects Audi drivers.Four Sprung Pork Technic!</sentencetext>
</comment>
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