<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_02_26_1447213</id>
	<title>Should I Take Toyota's Software Update?</title>
	<author>kdawson</author>
	<datestamp>1267200600000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>kiehlster writes <i>"I'm a software developer, and I know that most software has bugs, but how much trust can we put in the many lines of code found in our automobiles? I have a 2009 Camry that is involved in both of the recent Toyota recalls. As part of the floor-mat issue, they're offering to <a href="http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota-extends-brake-override-154194.aspx">install a software update</a> that would cause 'the brake pedal to take precedence over the gas pedal if both were pressed,' or, as their latest notice states, 'would cut power to the engine if both pedals were pressed.' In the computer world, we're all taught to install firmware updates only if there is a real problem because a large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardware or cause other unforeseen consequences. On a base of <a href="//yro.slashdot.org/story/10/02/23/2022204/NHTSA-Has-No-Software-Engineers-To-Analyze-Toyota">100 million lines of code</a>, can I really trust a software update to work safely when it is delivered in a three-month development cycle? My driving habits don't cause the floor mat to slide much, so I see the update as overkill.  What do you think? If it doesn't void the warranty, should I tell them to skip the update?"</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>kiehlster writes " I 'm a software developer , and I know that most software has bugs , but how much trust can we put in the many lines of code found in our automobiles ?
I have a 2009 Camry that is involved in both of the recent Toyota recalls .
As part of the floor-mat issue , they 're offering to install a software update that would cause 'the brake pedal to take precedence over the gas pedal if both were pressed, ' or , as their latest notice states , 'would cut power to the engine if both pedals were pressed .
' In the computer world , we 're all taught to install firmware updates only if there is a real problem because a large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardware or cause other unforeseen consequences .
On a base of 100 million lines of code , can I really trust a software update to work safely when it is delivered in a three-month development cycle ?
My driving habits do n't cause the floor mat to slide much , so I see the update as overkill .
What do you think ?
If it does n't void the warranty , should I tell them to skip the update ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>kiehlster writes "I'm a software developer, and I know that most software has bugs, but how much trust can we put in the many lines of code found in our automobiles?
I have a 2009 Camry that is involved in both of the recent Toyota recalls.
As part of the floor-mat issue, they're offering to install a software update that would cause 'the brake pedal to take precedence over the gas pedal if both were pressed,' or, as their latest notice states, 'would cut power to the engine if both pedals were pressed.
' In the computer world, we're all taught to install firmware updates only if there is a real problem because a large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardware or cause other unforeseen consequences.
On a base of 100 million lines of code, can I really trust a software update to work safely when it is delivered in a three-month development cycle?
My driving habits don't cause the floor mat to slide much, so I see the update as overkill.
What do you think?
If it doesn't void the warranty, should I tell them to skip the update?
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286312</id>
	<title>Placebo Fixes</title>
	<author>MrTripps</author>
	<datestamp>1267205580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>From what I can tell, no one has found a replicable cause for the "acceleration problem." I'm guessing that a few of these accidents were caused by the biological part that connects the gas pedal, seat, and steering wheel. Still, telling someone that lost four members of their family that the cause was user error just isn't good PR. Floor mats, pedal assemblies, and the firmware update are fake solutions to solve a PR problem, not an engineering problem.</htmltext>
<tokenext>From what I can tell , no one has found a replicable cause for the " acceleration problem .
" I 'm guessing that a few of these accidents were caused by the biological part that connects the gas pedal , seat , and steering wheel .
Still , telling someone that lost four members of their family that the cause was user error just is n't good PR .
Floor mats , pedal assemblies , and the firmware update are fake solutions to solve a PR problem , not an engineering problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>From what I can tell, no one has found a replicable cause for the "acceleration problem.
" I'm guessing that a few of these accidents were caused by the biological part that connects the gas pedal, seat, and steering wheel.
Still, telling someone that lost four members of their family that the cause was user error just isn't good PR.
Floor mats, pedal assemblies, and the firmware update are fake solutions to solve a PR problem, not an engineering problem.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288934</id>
	<title>Lame firmware update!</title>
	<author>EXrider</author>
	<datestamp>1267214400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Great, how are people supposed to brake torque their Toyotas now!?  Seriously though, there are situations where "spirited" drivers actually want to apply the brakes and throttle at the same time.  It probably doesn't happen often in a Camry or Prius; but I'd rather have the car drop to idle if the e-brake is engaged (light is illuminated) or actually respond <b>correctly</b> to any other number of inputs (transmission selector, ignition position).</htmltext>
<tokenext>Great , how are people supposed to brake torque their Toyotas now ! ?
Seriously though , there are situations where " spirited " drivers actually want to apply the brakes and throttle at the same time .
It probably does n't happen often in a Camry or Prius ; but I 'd rather have the car drop to idle if the e-brake is engaged ( light is illuminated ) or actually respond correctly to any other number of inputs ( transmission selector , ignition position ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Great, how are people supposed to brake torque their Toyotas now!?
Seriously though, there are situations where "spirited" drivers actually want to apply the brakes and throttle at the same time.
It probably doesn't happen often in a Camry or Prius; but I'd rather have the car drop to idle if the e-brake is engaged (light is illuminated) or actually respond correctly to any other number of inputs (transmission selector, ignition position).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287196</id>
	<title>Re:1st bug found</title>
	<author>Bigjeff5</author>
	<datestamp>1267208340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why would you tap the breaks while holding the accelerator?  That's just foolish, and if you're holding the break for any period of time when you do it you're putting incredible wear on your breaks.  I really wouldn't recommend it.</p><p>The breakcheck is far, far more effective against tailgaters if you actually slow down when you do it - it freaks them out and they back off.  If they still keep tailgating, take your foot off the gas and let it coast and see how long it takes them to find a way around you.  Be warned that that really really pisses them off, so if you're in an area known for road rage I wouldn't recommend the second technique.  The first usually works great though.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why would you tap the breaks while holding the accelerator ?
That 's just foolish , and if you 're holding the break for any period of time when you do it you 're putting incredible wear on your breaks .
I really would n't recommend it.The breakcheck is far , far more effective against tailgaters if you actually slow down when you do it - it freaks them out and they back off .
If they still keep tailgating , take your foot off the gas and let it coast and see how long it takes them to find a way around you .
Be warned that that really really pisses them off , so if you 're in an area known for road rage I would n't recommend the second technique .
The first usually works great though .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why would you tap the breaks while holding the accelerator?
That's just foolish, and if you're holding the break for any period of time when you do it you're putting incredible wear on your breaks.
I really wouldn't recommend it.The breakcheck is far, far more effective against tailgaters if you actually slow down when you do it - it freaks them out and they back off.
If they still keep tailgating, take your foot off the gas and let it coast and see how long it takes them to find a way around you.
Be warned that that really really pisses them off, so if you're in an area known for road rage I wouldn't recommend the second technique.
The first usually works great though.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285982</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286030</id>
	<title>It is a fail safe</title>
	<author>oracleguy01</author>
	<datestamp>1267204680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>From what I was told, that update is a fail safe. Basically if the throttle is wide open or near wide open and you press on the brakes, it will cause the engine to ignore the throttle position and return to idle.</p><p>Not to say that it might not have bugs but also consider that they might be silently patching other bugs they found. If part of this whole sudden acceleration thing was a software glitch, they could use this to keep that under wraps. You probably should just get the update, then at least if there is a future problem they can't point to your refusal to update the software as the cause.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>From what I was told , that update is a fail safe .
Basically if the throttle is wide open or near wide open and you press on the brakes , it will cause the engine to ignore the throttle position and return to idle.Not to say that it might not have bugs but also consider that they might be silently patching other bugs they found .
If part of this whole sudden acceleration thing was a software glitch , they could use this to keep that under wraps .
You probably should just get the update , then at least if there is a future problem they ca n't point to your refusal to update the software as the cause .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>From what I was told, that update is a fail safe.
Basically if the throttle is wide open or near wide open and you press on the brakes, it will cause the engine to ignore the throttle position and return to idle.Not to say that it might not have bugs but also consider that they might be silently patching other bugs they found.
If part of this whole sudden acceleration thing was a software glitch, they could use this to keep that under wraps.
You probably should just get the update, then at least if there is a future problem they can't point to your refusal to update the software as the cause.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31289890</id>
	<title>Get it!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267175400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think its a great idea to get the update!  Insurance would probly give you a break also!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think its a great idea to get the update !
Insurance would probly give you a break also !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think its a great idea to get the update!
Insurance would probly give you a break also!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31295032</id>
	<title>Re:Get the Flash</title>
	<author>thegrassyknowl</author>
	<datestamp>1267211760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The only real reason to not have such a feature is because of trail-braking or hell-toe shifting. Both are racing/performance driving techniques you won't be doing in your Camry. Plus, it is a pure software feature in that if it detects you braking, it will cut throttle. So there's no big issue there.</p></div><p>"hell-toe shifting" hey.  That may explain the sudden acceleration. That devil toe!</p><p>Now, heel-toe shifting was something I'd do quite often in my old car. I have no need to shift gears in the new one because it's auto, but I still use heel-toe to pull off on steeper inclines. The thing with heel-toeing is that people do do it, and they're not racing - they're just driving fairly normally under only moderately exceptional circumstances (ie, down-shifting with a trailer attached on a steep downgrade). Sure, you're not doing that in a Prius, probably, but in a Camry it's conceivable you may be hauling a load. What would work for me is a maximum throttle opening that was above zero when the brake was applied; just enough to give a blip on the juice and downshift or pull away on a hill, but not enough to pull the car up to unsafe speeds.</p><p>And what's to say the fix doesn't add new, unexpected bugs. We know about the sudden acceleration problem and we know the answer; shift into neutral and jump on the brake pedal. That'll stop you. Assuming the computer hasn't gone balls up enough to disable the rev limiter you'll thrash the motor for a little while, pull up and turn the car off. If the computer is so balls-up that the rev limiter doesn't work you're fucked anyway so why worry about destroying the motor?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The only real reason to not have such a feature is because of trail-braking or hell-toe shifting .
Both are racing/performance driving techniques you wo n't be doing in your Camry .
Plus , it is a pure software feature in that if it detects you braking , it will cut throttle .
So there 's no big issue there .
" hell-toe shifting " hey .
That may explain the sudden acceleration .
That devil toe ! Now , heel-toe shifting was something I 'd do quite often in my old car .
I have no need to shift gears in the new one because it 's auto , but I still use heel-toe to pull off on steeper inclines .
The thing with heel-toeing is that people do do it , and they 're not racing - they 're just driving fairly normally under only moderately exceptional circumstances ( ie , down-shifting with a trailer attached on a steep downgrade ) .
Sure , you 're not doing that in a Prius , probably , but in a Camry it 's conceivable you may be hauling a load .
What would work for me is a maximum throttle opening that was above zero when the brake was applied ; just enough to give a blip on the juice and downshift or pull away on a hill , but not enough to pull the car up to unsafe speeds.And what 's to say the fix does n't add new , unexpected bugs .
We know about the sudden acceleration problem and we know the answer ; shift into neutral and jump on the brake pedal .
That 'll stop you .
Assuming the computer has n't gone balls up enough to disable the rev limiter you 'll thrash the motor for a little while , pull up and turn the car off .
If the computer is so balls-up that the rev limiter does n't work you 're fucked anyway so why worry about destroying the motor ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The only real reason to not have such a feature is because of trail-braking or hell-toe shifting.
Both are racing/performance driving techniques you won't be doing in your Camry.
Plus, it is a pure software feature in that if it detects you braking, it will cut throttle.
So there's no big issue there.
"hell-toe shifting" hey.
That may explain the sudden acceleration.
That devil toe!Now, heel-toe shifting was something I'd do quite often in my old car.
I have no need to shift gears in the new one because it's auto, but I still use heel-toe to pull off on steeper inclines.
The thing with heel-toeing is that people do do it, and they're not racing - they're just driving fairly normally under only moderately exceptional circumstances (ie, down-shifting with a trailer attached on a steep downgrade).
Sure, you're not doing that in a Prius, probably, but in a Camry it's conceivable you may be hauling a load.
What would work for me is a maximum throttle opening that was above zero when the brake was applied; just enough to give a blip on the juice and downshift or pull away on a hill, but not enough to pull the car up to unsafe speeds.And what's to say the fix doesn't add new, unexpected bugs.
We know about the sudden acceleration problem and we know the answer; shift into neutral and jump on the brake pedal.
That'll stop you.
Assuming the computer hasn't gone balls up enough to disable the rev limiter you'll thrash the motor for a little while, pull up and turn the car off.
If the computer is so balls-up that the rev limiter doesn't work you're fucked anyway so why worry about destroying the motor?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285984</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31310478</id>
	<title>Re:Just try using one on a hill! Re:1st bug found</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267363920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>What he is saying is that the next time some Toyota owner parks on the slope of a hill, with the car facing the upward direction, he is going to have fun.</p></div><p>Maybe I'm one of the few left that had to drive a stick shift to get their license. But as far as I know, that's what an emergency/hand break is for. You lock it in when you're on the hill, then start accelerating and release the break with your hand.</p><p>I've never used my break pedal up a hill before, and yes, I've driven in SF plenty of times.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>What he is saying is that the next time some Toyota owner parks on the slope of a hill , with the car facing the upward direction , he is going to have fun.Maybe I 'm one of the few left that had to drive a stick shift to get their license .
But as far as I know , that 's what an emergency/hand break is for .
You lock it in when you 're on the hill , then start accelerating and release the break with your hand.I 've never used my break pedal up a hill before , and yes , I 've driven in SF plenty of times .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What he is saying is that the next time some Toyota owner parks on the slope of a hill, with the car facing the upward direction, he is going to have fun.Maybe I'm one of the few left that had to drive a stick shift to get their license.
But as far as I know, that's what an emergency/hand break is for.
You lock it in when you're on the hill, then start accelerating and release the break with your hand.I've never used my break pedal up a hill before, and yes, I've driven in SF plenty of times.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286732</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288830</id>
	<title>Re:If it bricks, it's their fault.</title>
	<author>MentlFlos</author>
	<datestamp>1267213980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>First, this is about your safety.</p></div><p>I don't give a flying crap about HIS safety.  I care about mine!  I want you to be able to stop only so you don't hurt me.  Go ahead and fly into a field all by yourself, just don't take me with you.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>First , this is about your safety.I do n't give a flying crap about HIS safety .
I care about mine !
I want you to be able to stop only so you do n't hurt me .
Go ahead and fly into a field all by yourself , just do n't take me with you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First, this is about your safety.I don't give a flying crap about HIS safety.
I care about mine!
I want you to be able to stop only so you don't hurt me.
Go ahead and fly into a field all by yourself, just don't take me with you.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285928</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31290646</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>Facegarden</author>
	<datestamp>1267179000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Which is why I don't like push-button ignition.  If my car ever goes into hyperdrive because of a stuck throttle, I take comfort in knowing I still have a kill switch, and I grew up driving tractors and cars without power steering or power-assist braking, so I can cope.</p><p>How can I trust that that push-button ignition will still shut off the car?  I know it's conceivable that even a key-start ignition might turn all ignition control over to an ECM, but who's done that?</p></div><p>How can you trust that your key will shut off the car? Surely modern cars don't have any real connection to the engine ignition system. I know my starter wasn't directly hooked up to the key when I had a Saturn Sky - no matter how long you held the key in the start position, the car would just try to start until it succeeded, and then stop. I ran out of gas one time and noticed that after I stopped trying to start it, it kept trying for a few seconds, and then found that if I just blipped it to start, it didn't matter - it tried till it decided it wouldn't work.<br>I also found that it won't try to start it if its running - something older cars would let you do, which screws up the starter.</p><p>So i would imagine that most new cars use the ignition switch to tell the ECU to power off the car - in other words, you're probably already at the mercy of some code to turn off the car.<br>-Taylor</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Which is why I do n't like push-button ignition .
If my car ever goes into hyperdrive because of a stuck throttle , I take comfort in knowing I still have a kill switch , and I grew up driving tractors and cars without power steering or power-assist braking , so I can cope.How can I trust that that push-button ignition will still shut off the car ?
I know it 's conceivable that even a key-start ignition might turn all ignition control over to an ECM , but who 's done that ? How can you trust that your key will shut off the car ?
Surely modern cars do n't have any real connection to the engine ignition system .
I know my starter was n't directly hooked up to the key when I had a Saturn Sky - no matter how long you held the key in the start position , the car would just try to start until it succeeded , and then stop .
I ran out of gas one time and noticed that after I stopped trying to start it , it kept trying for a few seconds , and then found that if I just blipped it to start , it did n't matter - it tried till it decided it would n't work.I also found that it wo n't try to start it if its running - something older cars would let you do , which screws up the starter.So i would imagine that most new cars use the ignition switch to tell the ECU to power off the car - in other words , you 're probably already at the mercy of some code to turn off the car.-Taylor</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Which is why I don't like push-button ignition.
If my car ever goes into hyperdrive because of a stuck throttle, I take comfort in knowing I still have a kill switch, and I grew up driving tractors and cars without power steering or power-assist braking, so I can cope.How can I trust that that push-button ignition will still shut off the car?
I know it's conceivable that even a key-start ignition might turn all ignition control over to an ECM, but who's done that?How can you trust that your key will shut off the car?
Surely modern cars don't have any real connection to the engine ignition system.
I know my starter wasn't directly hooked up to the key when I had a Saturn Sky - no matter how long you held the key in the start position, the car would just try to start until it succeeded, and then stop.
I ran out of gas one time and noticed that after I stopped trying to start it, it kept trying for a few seconds, and then found that if I just blipped it to start, it didn't matter - it tried till it decided it wouldn't work.I also found that it won't try to start it if its running - something older cars would let you do, which screws up the starter.So i would imagine that most new cars use the ignition switch to tell the ECU to power off the car - in other words, you're probably already at the mercy of some code to turn off the car.-Taylor
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288360</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287058</id>
	<title>reimbursement</title>
	<author>ankitasdeveloper</author>
	<datestamp>1267207860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>u can get reimbursement. refer this video:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/toyotausa?blend=2&amp;ob=4#p/c/A7E3573E524159D4/0/63Jux4hngWc" title="youtube.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/user/toyotausa?blend=2&amp;ob=4#p/c/A7E3573E524159D4/0/63Jux4hngWc</a> [youtube.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>u can get reimbursement .
refer this video : http : //www.youtube.com/user/toyotausa ? blend = 2&amp;ob = 4 # p/c/A7E3573E524159D4/0/63Jux4hngWc [ youtube.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>u can get reimbursement.
refer this video:
http://www.youtube.com/user/toyotausa?blend=2&amp;ob=4#p/c/A7E3573E524159D4/0/63Jux4hngWc [youtube.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31296924</id>
	<title>idiot</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267289220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>kdawson is merely an attention-seeking idiot.  this "question" is so obviously contrived for him to be able to post something, anything...sad that hundreds of slasdotters fall for this garbage...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>kdawson is merely an attention-seeking idiot .
this " question " is so obviously contrived for him to be able to post something , anything...sad that hundreds of slasdotters fall for this garbage.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>kdawson is merely an attention-seeking idiot.
this "question" is so obviously contrived for him to be able to post something, anything...sad that hundreds of slasdotters fall for this garbage...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287612</id>
	<title>Statistical basis for your main premise?</title>
	<author>cprice</author>
	<datestamp>1267209780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"...because a large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardware or cause other unforeseen consequences..."</p><p>I'd love to see the statistical data to back up this claim.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" ...because a large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardware or cause other unforeseen consequences... " I 'd love to see the statistical data to back up this claim .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"...because a large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardware or cause other unforeseen consequences..."I'd love to see the statistical data to back up this claim.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286652</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>schlesinm</author>
	<datestamp>1267206600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>The dealer is doing the firmware update as part of the recall. If they brick your car because the firmware modification goes wrong, then they replace the bricked part. There is no risk on that side. So the big question is do you want a fix for a known bug or do you want to keep the buggy firmware. And as the parent says, if you don't do the upgrade, then if the bug happens to you the insurance company and manufacturer will deny your claim because you refused to fix the bug.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The dealer is doing the firmware update as part of the recall .
If they brick your car because the firmware modification goes wrong , then they replace the bricked part .
There is no risk on that side .
So the big question is do you want a fix for a known bug or do you want to keep the buggy firmware .
And as the parent says , if you do n't do the upgrade , then if the bug happens to you the insurance company and manufacturer will deny your claim because you refused to fix the bug .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The dealer is doing the firmware update as part of the recall.
If they brick your car because the firmware modification goes wrong, then they replace the bricked part.
There is no risk on that side.
So the big question is do you want a fix for a known bug or do you want to keep the buggy firmware.
And as the parent says, if you don't do the upgrade, then if the bug happens to you the insurance company and manufacturer will deny your claim because you refused to fix the bug.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286038</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31290464</id>
	<title>if it ain't broke, don't fix it.</title>
	<author>Nyder</author>
	<datestamp>1267178040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Look, if you don't have a problem with your car, then don't apply the update.   It's as simple as that.</p><p>If your required by your insurance agency, yes, update then.</p><p>But you trusted toyota when you bought your car, all 100 million lines of code and all.   Why you aren't trusting them with the update makes NO SENSE at all.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Look , if you do n't have a problem with your car , then do n't apply the update .
It 's as simple as that.If your required by your insurance agency , yes , update then.But you trusted toyota when you bought your car , all 100 million lines of code and all .
Why you are n't trusting them with the update makes NO SENSE at all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Look, if you don't have a problem with your car, then don't apply the update.
It's as simple as that.If your required by your insurance agency, yes, update then.But you trusted toyota when you bought your car, all 100 million lines of code and all.
Why you aren't trusting them with the update makes NO SENSE at all.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31291674</id>
	<title>Take the update</title>
	<author>jonwil</author>
	<datestamp>1267184640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Since the update is being performed by a Toyota dealer, any problems caused by the update will be fixed at no cost by the dealer.</p><p>If the dealer installs the update and in doing so bricks the cars computer units, the dealer is obligated to fix the bricked computer units for free (especially since the update is done as part of a recall)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Since the update is being performed by a Toyota dealer , any problems caused by the update will be fixed at no cost by the dealer.If the dealer installs the update and in doing so bricks the cars computer units , the dealer is obligated to fix the bricked computer units for free ( especially since the update is done as part of a recall )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Since the update is being performed by a Toyota dealer, any problems caused by the update will be fixed at no cost by the dealer.If the dealer installs the update and in doing so bricks the cars computer units, the dealer is obligated to fix the bricked computer units for free (especially since the update is done as part of a recall)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286132</id>
	<title>Liability</title>
	<author>nurb432</author>
	<datestamp>1267204980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you don't, and you have a wreck that is related to the recall, guess who is on the hook?  ( one hint, it wont be Toyota or your insurance company )</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you do n't , and you have a wreck that is related to the recall , guess who is on the hook ?
( one hint , it wont be Toyota or your insurance company )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you don't, and you have a wreck that is related to the recall, guess who is on the hook?
( one hint, it wont be Toyota or your insurance company )</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288258</id>
	<title>Your thoughts on firmware are old hat.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267211820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"In the computer world, we're all taught to install firmware updates only if there is a real problem because a large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardware or cause other unforeseen consequences."</p><p>This is common thought from the mid-90s. In todays environment, this is no longer true and in some cases vendors require firmware to be installed to maintain support contracts. Most firmware updates are released to improve performance and reliability issues. A major reason hardware is much faster is because work that used to be compelted in software is moving to hardware layers, greatly adding to complexity.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" In the computer world , we 're all taught to install firmware updates only if there is a real problem because a large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardware or cause other unforeseen consequences .
" This is common thought from the mid-90s .
In todays environment , this is no longer true and in some cases vendors require firmware to be installed to maintain support contracts .
Most firmware updates are released to improve performance and reliability issues .
A major reason hardware is much faster is because work that used to be compelted in software is moving to hardware layers , greatly adding to complexity .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"In the computer world, we're all taught to install firmware updates only if there is a real problem because a large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardware or cause other unforeseen consequences.
"This is common thought from the mid-90s.
In todays environment, this is no longer true and in some cases vendors require firmware to be installed to maintain support contracts.
Most firmware updates are released to improve performance and reliability issues.
A major reason hardware is much faster is because work that used to be compelted in software is moving to hardware layers, greatly adding to complexity.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287134</id>
	<title>Burnout?</title>
	<author>Above</author>
	<datestamp>1267208160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How do I do a burnout if I can't use the brake and gas at the same time?</p><p>Stupid nanny cars.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How do I do a burnout if I ca n't use the brake and gas at the same time ? Stupid nanny cars .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How do I do a burnout if I can't use the brake and gas at the same time?Stupid nanny cars.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286246</id>
	<title>No Question</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267205340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>After Toyota's recent failure, now is the best time to get updates!  They're being extra vigilant now.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>After Toyota 's recent failure , now is the best time to get updates !
They 're being extra vigilant now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>After Toyota's recent failure, now is the best time to get updates!
They're being extra vigilant now.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287726</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267210140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>He should be more concerned that if he causes an accident he isn't held personally liable for denying this update. Possibly even criminally liable if there is an injury or death.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>He should be more concerned that if he causes an accident he is n't held personally liable for denying this update .
Possibly even criminally liable if there is an injury or death .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He should be more concerned that if he causes an accident he isn't held personally liable for denying this update.
Possibly even criminally liable if there is an injury or death.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286652</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287736</id>
	<title>Yes</title>
	<author>geekoid</author>
	<datestamp>1267210140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They are fixing an issue that ciould kill you. Take the damn patch.</p><p>Yes software has bugs, but automotive software is designed, tested, and built like software should be, i.e. engineered.<br>Software engineering is substantially different then 'programming'.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They are fixing an issue that ciould kill you .
Take the damn patch.Yes software has bugs , but automotive software is designed , tested , and built like software should be , i.e .
engineered.Software engineering is substantially different then 'programming' .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They are fixing an issue that ciould kill you.
Take the damn patch.Yes software has bugs, but automotive software is designed, tested, and built like software should be, i.e.
engineered.Software engineering is substantially different then 'programming'.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31290974</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>Darinbob</author>
	<datestamp>1267180500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Wasn't the problem ultimately mechanical?  Ie, they added an analog friction device to give more feedback so that it felt like you were pushing the brake, and it was that part the stuck.  Or different failure types for different Toyota models?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Was n't the problem ultimately mechanical ?
Ie , they added an analog friction device to give more feedback so that it felt like you were pushing the brake , and it was that part the stuck .
Or different failure types for different Toyota models ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wasn't the problem ultimately mechanical?
Ie, they added an analog friction device to give more feedback so that it felt like you were pushing the brake, and it was that part the stuck.
Or different failure types for different Toyota models?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286652</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31296864</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>rpstrong</author>
	<datestamp>1267288440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Push-button ignition can be turned off by holding down the button (kind of like with a computer).  Push-button ignition doesn't stop you from putting the car in neutral.</p></div><p>No, but a fly-by-wire transmission can prevent you from doing so.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Push-button ignition can be turned off by holding down the button ( kind of like with a computer ) .
Push-button ignition does n't stop you from putting the car in neutral.No , but a fly-by-wire transmission can prevent you from doing so .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Push-button ignition can be turned off by holding down the button (kind of like with a computer).
Push-button ignition doesn't stop you from putting the car in neutral.No, but a fly-by-wire transmission can prevent you from doing so.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288706</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288094</id>
	<title>Skipping the update is for pussies</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267211340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Rewrite the entire code line yourself.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Rewrite the entire code line yourself .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Rewrite the entire code line yourself.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286536</id>
	<title>In the computer world...</title>
	<author>Mordaximus</author>
	<datestamp>1267206240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...bricked doesn't mean what you think it does. To claim a "large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardware" is pretty silly. To think you can brick a car is even sillier. At the very least, the back seat has uses, even if the car doesn't run.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...bricked does n't mean what you think it does .
To claim a " large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardware " is pretty silly .
To think you can brick a car is even sillier .
At the very least , the back seat has uses , even if the car does n't run .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...bricked doesn't mean what you think it does.
To claim a "large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardware" is pretty silly.
To think you can brick a car is even sillier.
At the very least, the back seat has uses, even if the car doesn't run.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31289150</id>
	<title>Re:I will say this</title>
	<author>Bigjeff5</author>
	<datestamp>1267215060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No, you can't, because the control systems for these devices are tied directly to the hardware.  It's not like these bad boys run Linux (not that you couldn't put it on there, you probably could, but that would be absurd).</p><p>If you take the company out of the picture there is no device to write software for.  It's like saying the architecture for the x86 should be open sourced, that's absurd.  The instruction set should be available, but if the internal programming were open sourced it would simply never happen, because it is directly tied to the hardware, and you need specific knowledge of the internal workings of the hardware that nobody except the developer of the hardware is going to have.  Furthermore, the hardware vendor would not be able to sell a piece of hardware that didn't do anything, so they need to do the internals anyway.  It's the same issue here, expanded a little bit (relating to a car instead of a processor).</p><p>Open source applies to a lot of things, and you could even use open source after a certain point on a lot of these devices, but the nuts and bolts of it can not and should not be open source.  For a company selling a specific product, pouring millions of dollars into its development, however, open sourcing one part of it just doesn't make any sense at all, especially when each part is inter-dependent.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No , you ca n't , because the control systems for these devices are tied directly to the hardware .
It 's not like these bad boys run Linux ( not that you could n't put it on there , you probably could , but that would be absurd ) .If you take the company out of the picture there is no device to write software for .
It 's like saying the architecture for the x86 should be open sourced , that 's absurd .
The instruction set should be available , but if the internal programming were open sourced it would simply never happen , because it is directly tied to the hardware , and you need specific knowledge of the internal workings of the hardware that nobody except the developer of the hardware is going to have .
Furthermore , the hardware vendor would not be able to sell a piece of hardware that did n't do anything , so they need to do the internals anyway .
It 's the same issue here , expanded a little bit ( relating to a car instead of a processor ) .Open source applies to a lot of things , and you could even use open source after a certain point on a lot of these devices , but the nuts and bolts of it can not and should not be open source .
For a company selling a specific product , pouring millions of dollars into its development , however , open sourcing one part of it just does n't make any sense at all , especially when each part is inter-dependent .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, you can't, because the control systems for these devices are tied directly to the hardware.
It's not like these bad boys run Linux (not that you couldn't put it on there, you probably could, but that would be absurd).If you take the company out of the picture there is no device to write software for.
It's like saying the architecture for the x86 should be open sourced, that's absurd.
The instruction set should be available, but if the internal programming were open sourced it would simply never happen, because it is directly tied to the hardware, and you need specific knowledge of the internal workings of the hardware that nobody except the developer of the hardware is going to have.
Furthermore, the hardware vendor would not be able to sell a piece of hardware that didn't do anything, so they need to do the internals anyway.
It's the same issue here, expanded a little bit (relating to a car instead of a processor).Open source applies to a lot of things, and you could even use open source after a certain point on a lot of these devices, but the nuts and bolts of it can not and should not be open source.
For a company selling a specific product, pouring millions of dollars into its development, however, open sourcing one part of it just doesn't make any sense at all, especially when each part is inter-dependent.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286508</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286834</id>
	<title>Re:1st bug found</title>
	<author>loafula</author>
	<datestamp>1267207140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Huh??? Are you in the habit of pressing the brake and the accelerator at the same time when you drive? If so, please go back to driver's ed.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Huh ? ? ?
Are you in the habit of pressing the brake and the accelerator at the same time when you drive ?
If so , please go back to driver 's ed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Huh???
Are you in the habit of pressing the brake and the accelerator at the same time when you drive?
If so, please go back to driver's ed.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285982</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287746</id>
	<title>Re:Toyotaphobia getting out of hand</title>
	<author>sjames</author>
	<datestamp>1267210200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's hard to say if it's 34 or more. We have 34 reports where we have high confidence of the cause. Others may have been attributed to DUI, inattentive driving, unknown, driver error (wrong pedal) or many various other things. If the driver is dead, we'd never hear otherwise.</p><p>Some of it is just heightened alarm, of course. It's easy to not think about those 100 million lines of code when everything seems to work right. Remember, very few Pinto owners actually died in a fire.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>But as a public safety issue, more people died of lightening strikes and bee stings during that period.</p></div><p>I don't think bees have a JTAG port, how would we update the firmware?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's hard to say if it 's 34 or more .
We have 34 reports where we have high confidence of the cause .
Others may have been attributed to DUI , inattentive driving , unknown , driver error ( wrong pedal ) or many various other things .
If the driver is dead , we 'd never hear otherwise.Some of it is just heightened alarm , of course .
It 's easy to not think about those 100 million lines of code when everything seems to work right .
Remember , very few Pinto owners actually died in a fire.But as a public safety issue , more people died of lightening strikes and bee stings during that period.I do n't think bees have a JTAG port , how would we update the firmware ?
: - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's hard to say if it's 34 or more.
We have 34 reports where we have high confidence of the cause.
Others may have been attributed to DUI, inattentive driving, unknown, driver error (wrong pedal) or many various other things.
If the driver is dead, we'd never hear otherwise.Some of it is just heightened alarm, of course.
It's easy to not think about those 100 million lines of code when everything seems to work right.
Remember, very few Pinto owners actually died in a fire.But as a public safety issue, more people died of lightening strikes and bee stings during that period.I don't think bees have a JTAG port, how would we update the firmware?
:-)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286300</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286266</id>
	<title>Re:Their new slogan</title>
	<author>Singular-One</author>
	<datestamp>1267205400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Maybe for their new slogan they can steal an old one, or atleast repurpose it.

"Follow the leader, he's on a Honda.... er Toyota.."

Ahh that makes me feel old.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe for their new slogan they can steal an old one , or atleast repurpose it .
" Follow the leader , he 's on a Honda.... er Toyota.. " Ahh that makes me feel old .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe for their new slogan they can steal an old one, or atleast repurpose it.
"Follow the leader, he's on a Honda.... er Toyota.."

Ahh that makes me feel old.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285940</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286592</id>
	<title>Read about the congressional hearing</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267206420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At first, I thought that a lot of the thing about the Toyotas was a lot of hype.  I thought about all the things you can do if things go wrong.  Shift into neutral, turn off the car, brakes, emergency brakes, and so forth.</p><p>Well, at the congressional hearing a gal was explaining the problem she had, and she had tried ALL of that.  The car wouldn't downshift, couldn't be turned off, and when it eventually did slow down and stop and was shut off, dash lights and radio were still on.  When the car was put into neutral for the tow truck to load it, the car tried to start itself.</p><p>To me, this says there is a major serious bug in the code.  With this in mind, I would STRONGLY suggest getting that update.  Woz has even chimed in saying he's been able to replicate it and he says there is no doubt in his mind that it's software.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At first , I thought that a lot of the thing about the Toyotas was a lot of hype .
I thought about all the things you can do if things go wrong .
Shift into neutral , turn off the car , brakes , emergency brakes , and so forth.Well , at the congressional hearing a gal was explaining the problem she had , and she had tried ALL of that .
The car would n't downshift , could n't be turned off , and when it eventually did slow down and stop and was shut off , dash lights and radio were still on .
When the car was put into neutral for the tow truck to load it , the car tried to start itself.To me , this says there is a major serious bug in the code .
With this in mind , I would STRONGLY suggest getting that update .
Woz has even chimed in saying he 's been able to replicate it and he says there is no doubt in his mind that it 's software .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At first, I thought that a lot of the thing about the Toyotas was a lot of hype.
I thought about all the things you can do if things go wrong.
Shift into neutral, turn off the car, brakes, emergency brakes, and so forth.Well, at the congressional hearing a gal was explaining the problem she had, and she had tried ALL of that.
The car wouldn't downshift, couldn't be turned off, and when it eventually did slow down and stop and was shut off, dash lights and radio were still on.
When the car was put into neutral for the tow truck to load it, the car tried to start itself.To me, this says there is a major serious bug in the code.
With this in mind, I would STRONGLY suggest getting that update.
Woz has even chimed in saying he's been able to replicate it and he says there is no doubt in his mind that it's software.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31292276</id>
	<title>Re:If it bricks, it's their fault.</title>
	<author>kimgkimg</author>
	<datestamp>1267187760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Dude, be a REAL software engineer and hack in your own firmware!!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Dude , be a REAL software engineer and hack in your own firmware !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Dude, be a REAL software engineer and hack in your own firmware!
!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285928</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31289310</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267215780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>floor mat is bs?<br>Before spouting utter crap at least do a rudimentary unit test on your system.</p><p>buy a very heavy rug, put it over your gas pedal, press pedal, see if pedal stays pressed.<br>You will find it hard to stop.</p><p>Notice that the floor mats can do the same thing, since they are just rugs.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>floor mat is bs ? Before spouting utter crap at least do a rudimentary unit test on your system.buy a very heavy rug , put it over your gas pedal , press pedal , see if pedal stays pressed.You will find it hard to stop.Notice that the floor mats can do the same thing , since they are just rugs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>floor mat is bs?Before spouting utter crap at least do a rudimentary unit test on your system.buy a very heavy rug, put it over your gas pedal, press pedal, see if pedal stays pressed.You will find it hard to stop.Notice that the floor mats can do the same thing, since they are just rugs.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287676</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31291306</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>cyn1c77</author>
	<datestamp>1267182360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Which is why I don't like push-button ignition.  If my car ever goes into hyperdrive because of a stuck throttle, I take comfort in knowing I still have a kill switch, and I grew up driving tractors and cars without power steering or power-assist braking, so I can cope.

How can I trust that that push-button ignition will still shut off the car?  I know it's conceivable that even a key-start ignition might turn all ignition control over to an ECM, but who's done that?</p></div><p>Is it not possible to change gears from "Drive" to "Neutral" in these cars?  Because I would recommend that if your engine is spooling for hyperspace.  Shutting of the car would be the third thing I would do, after I had regained control.  But then again, I like power steering and brakes.  The worst thing that will happen is that your engine will blow and then Toyota can give you a new car.     </p><p>This is why I like my manual transmission:  When the shit hits the fan, I just press as hard as I can on the clutch and brake while aiming at the softest object.  As a bonus, if the clutch won't disengage, you can always use the shifter to rip the car out of gear.    </p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Which is why I do n't like push-button ignition .
If my car ever goes into hyperdrive because of a stuck throttle , I take comfort in knowing I still have a kill switch , and I grew up driving tractors and cars without power steering or power-assist braking , so I can cope .
How can I trust that that push-button ignition will still shut off the car ?
I know it 's conceivable that even a key-start ignition might turn all ignition control over to an ECM , but who 's done that ? Is it not possible to change gears from " Drive " to " Neutral " in these cars ?
Because I would recommend that if your engine is spooling for hyperspace .
Shutting of the car would be the third thing I would do , after I had regained control .
But then again , I like power steering and brakes .
The worst thing that will happen is that your engine will blow and then Toyota can give you a new car .
This is why I like my manual transmission : When the shit hits the fan , I just press as hard as I can on the clutch and brake while aiming at the softest object .
As a bonus , if the clutch wo n't disengage , you can always use the shifter to rip the car out of gear .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Which is why I don't like push-button ignition.
If my car ever goes into hyperdrive because of a stuck throttle, I take comfort in knowing I still have a kill switch, and I grew up driving tractors and cars without power steering or power-assist braking, so I can cope.
How can I trust that that push-button ignition will still shut off the car?
I know it's conceivable that even a key-start ignition might turn all ignition control over to an ECM, but who's done that?Is it not possible to change gears from "Drive" to "Neutral" in these cars?
Because I would recommend that if your engine is spooling for hyperspace.
Shutting of the car would be the third thing I would do, after I had regained control.
But then again, I like power steering and brakes.
The worst thing that will happen is that your engine will blow and then Toyota can give you a new car.
This is why I like my manual transmission:  When the shit hits the fan, I just press as hard as I can on the clutch and brake while aiming at the softest object.
As a bonus, if the clutch won't disengage, you can always use the shifter to rip the car out of gear.    
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288360</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287178</id>
	<title>For Real?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267208340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I can't believe you're worried about bricking your car's ECU. It's not like you're getting a firmware file and flashing it yourself... it's done AT THE DEALER - if the ECU/ECM bricks, they HAVE to replace it free of charge.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I ca n't believe you 're worried about bricking your car 's ECU .
It 's not like you 're getting a firmware file and flashing it yourself... it 's done AT THE DEALER - if the ECU/ECM bricks , they HAVE to replace it free of charge .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can't believe you're worried about bricking your car's ECU.
It's not like you're getting a firmware file and flashing it yourself... it's done AT THE DEALER - if the ECU/ECM bricks, they HAVE to replace it free of charge.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286012</id>
	<title>IBTW</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267204620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>(I.n B.efore T.he W.oz)</p><p>((surely, he will reply to story too?))</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>( I.n B.efore T.he W.oz ) ( ( surely , he will reply to story too ?
) )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>(I.n B.efore T.he W.oz)((surely, he will reply to story too?
))</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31295708</id>
	<title>Count my lucky stars!</title>
	<author>EricTheO</author>
	<datestamp>1267267140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have never had any hardware "Bricked" from doing a firmware update. Either I'm just lucky or kiehlster writes with a bit'o artistic license for dramatic effect.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have never had any hardware " Bricked " from doing a firmware update .
Either I 'm just lucky or kiehlster writes with a bit'o artistic license for dramatic effect .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have never had any hardware "Bricked" from doing a firmware update.
Either I'm just lucky or kiehlster writes with a bit'o artistic license for dramatic effect.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31289320</id>
	<title>reverse problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267215780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I had a different make of car  slow down to 20-30 MPH very rapidly on four occasions. Eventually they did a buy-back and exchange of collateral. I wonder about this software fix. What happens when the brake sensor messages get garbled and this erroneously signals that you are mashing the brake for more than a second when you are not and you are traveling on the highway? The same exact thing that happened to my wife, the brakes will be applied and the throttle cut and the car will brake with the semi right behind her while she tries to get slowly to the other lane. In the case of our car it was the stability control. There was a steering position sensor that was not communicating properly with a central control module and it would decide that you were trying to turn sharply at 65+ MPH. At least we were able to disable the stability control with a button until the car was replaced and sent back to the manufacture for disassembly and testing. These fancy cars should light a MIL and enter limp home mode when they detect a certain amount of bad frames, ours did detect bad frames but it was a diagnostic that only experts could see as cksum errors in memory dumps of the controller (no trouble codes).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I had a different make of car slow down to 20-30 MPH very rapidly on four occasions .
Eventually they did a buy-back and exchange of collateral .
I wonder about this software fix .
What happens when the brake sensor messages get garbled and this erroneously signals that you are mashing the brake for more than a second when you are not and you are traveling on the highway ?
The same exact thing that happened to my wife , the brakes will be applied and the throttle cut and the car will brake with the semi right behind her while she tries to get slowly to the other lane .
In the case of our car it was the stability control .
There was a steering position sensor that was not communicating properly with a central control module and it would decide that you were trying to turn sharply at 65 + MPH .
At least we were able to disable the stability control with a button until the car was replaced and sent back to the manufacture for disassembly and testing .
These fancy cars should light a MIL and enter limp home mode when they detect a certain amount of bad frames , ours did detect bad frames but it was a diagnostic that only experts could see as cksum errors in memory dumps of the controller ( no trouble codes ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I had a different make of car  slow down to 20-30 MPH very rapidly on four occasions.
Eventually they did a buy-back and exchange of collateral.
I wonder about this software fix.
What happens when the brake sensor messages get garbled and this erroneously signals that you are mashing the brake for more than a second when you are not and you are traveling on the highway?
The same exact thing that happened to my wife, the brakes will be applied and the throttle cut and the car will brake with the semi right behind her while she tries to get slowly to the other lane.
In the case of our car it was the stability control.
There was a steering position sensor that was not communicating properly with a central control module and it would decide that you were trying to turn sharply at 65+ MPH.
At least we were able to disable the stability control with a button until the car was replaced and sent back to the manufacture for disassembly and testing.
These fancy cars should light a MIL and enter limp home mode when they detect a certain amount of bad frames, ours did detect bad frames but it was a diagnostic that only experts could see as cksum errors in memory dumps of the controller (no trouble codes).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31294034</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>sumdumass</author>
	<datestamp>1267199340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm not sure that placing the car into neutral would have the effect you are thinking it would. One of the people who testified to the senate hearing against Toyota claimed she placed the gear shift lever in all positions including neutral, reverse, and park to no avail. She said after noticing that all that failed to slow the car, she called her husband on the cell phone as the car was racing down the highway.</p><p>This may be because the shifting linkage isn't an actual linkage in some cars anymore. It's an electric solenoid that's operated by the shifter. It may stop the transmissions from going into gears that could cause damage like neutral or reverse or even lower gears if the RPMs are too high or the vehicle's speed it too great.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not sure that placing the car into neutral would have the effect you are thinking it would .
One of the people who testified to the senate hearing against Toyota claimed she placed the gear shift lever in all positions including neutral , reverse , and park to no avail .
She said after noticing that all that failed to slow the car , she called her husband on the cell phone as the car was racing down the highway.This may be because the shifting linkage is n't an actual linkage in some cars anymore .
It 's an electric solenoid that 's operated by the shifter .
It may stop the transmissions from going into gears that could cause damage like neutral or reverse or even lower gears if the RPMs are too high or the vehicle 's speed it too great .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not sure that placing the car into neutral would have the effect you are thinking it would.
One of the people who testified to the senate hearing against Toyota claimed she placed the gear shift lever in all positions including neutral, reverse, and park to no avail.
She said after noticing that all that failed to slow the car, she called her husband on the cell phone as the car was racing down the highway.This may be because the shifting linkage isn't an actual linkage in some cars anymore.
It's an electric solenoid that's operated by the shifter.
It may stop the transmissions from going into gears that could cause damage like neutral or reverse or even lower gears if the RPMs are too high or the vehicle's speed it too great.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288706</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286878</id>
	<title>Re:Umm... yes</title>
	<author>itripn</author>
	<datestamp>1267207320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>+10</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>+ 10</tokentext>
<sentencetext>+10</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285930</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286036</id>
	<title>Seriously?</title>
	<author>clone53421</author>
	<datestamp>1267204740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Take the update.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>My driving habits don't cause the floor mat to slide much, so I see the update as overkill.</p></div><p>Perhaps, but didn&rsquo;t I read about some people who died in a Toyota, presumably from this exact bug, whose floor mat was found secure in their trunk, exactly where Toyota recommended them to put it when they thought the floor mats were causing the accelerator bug?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Take the update.My driving habits do n't cause the floor mat to slide much , so I see the update as overkill.Perhaps , but didn    t I read about some people who died in a Toyota , presumably from this exact bug , whose floor mat was found secure in their trunk , exactly where Toyota recommended them to put it when they thought the floor mats were causing the accelerator bug ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Take the update.My driving habits don't cause the floor mat to slide much, so I see the update as overkill.Perhaps, but didn’t I read about some people who died in a Toyota, presumably from this exact bug, whose floor mat was found secure in their trunk, exactly where Toyota recommended them to put it when they thought the floor mats were causing the accelerator bug?
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31290446</id>
	<title>Liability</title>
	<author>redshirt</author>
	<datestamp>1267178040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's all about liability.  If you take the update and your car does something it obviously shouldn't, at least to have some legal recourse against Toyota.  If you don't take the update, it's the same as absolving Toyota of all future problems you may have.  All Toyota has to say is: "It's really tragic that he lost his left arm in that accident when his car sped out of control, after foolishly choosing not to take the free firmware update that would have prevented the accident, thus giving us indemnity."</p><p>Dumb ass.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's all about liability .
If you take the update and your car does something it obviously should n't , at least to have some legal recourse against Toyota .
If you do n't take the update , it 's the same as absolving Toyota of all future problems you may have .
All Toyota has to say is : " It 's really tragic that he lost his left arm in that accident when his car sped out of control , after foolishly choosing not to take the free firmware update that would have prevented the accident , thus giving us indemnity .
" Dumb ass .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's all about liability.
If you take the update and your car does something it obviously shouldn't, at least to have some legal recourse against Toyota.
If you don't take the update, it's the same as absolving Toyota of all future problems you may have.
All Toyota has to say is: "It's really tragic that he lost his left arm in that accident when his car sped out of control, after foolishly choosing not to take the free firmware update that would have prevented the accident, thus giving us indemnity.
"Dumb ass.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287676</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>cgenman</author>
	<datestamp>1267210020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would add that the "floor mat" excuse always sounded like BS to me. I'm guessing there is a firmware bug in there somewhere that they can't find that just registers the gas pedal as down.  They'd never admit to that, as it would reduce the public perception of security of drive-by-wire systems, and might introduce expensive public testing procedures.</p><p>In that case, your only chance is the brake overriding the gas (a process which should have been true from the beginning anyway).  Of course, it might be something else and you might still be screwed... unknown computer bugs are like that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would add that the " floor mat " excuse always sounded like BS to me .
I 'm guessing there is a firmware bug in there somewhere that they ca n't find that just registers the gas pedal as down .
They 'd never admit to that , as it would reduce the public perception of security of drive-by-wire systems , and might introduce expensive public testing procedures.In that case , your only chance is the brake overriding the gas ( a process which should have been true from the beginning anyway ) .
Of course , it might be something else and you might still be screwed... unknown computer bugs are like that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would add that the "floor mat" excuse always sounded like BS to me.
I'm guessing there is a firmware bug in there somewhere that they can't find that just registers the gas pedal as down.
They'd never admit to that, as it would reduce the public perception of security of drive-by-wire systems, and might introduce expensive public testing procedures.In that case, your only chance is the brake overriding the gas (a process which should have been true from the beginning anyway).
Of course, it might be something else and you might still be screwed... unknown computer bugs are like that.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286652</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286022</id>
	<title>Liability</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267204680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Take the update. If you decline it, you are in an unfortunate legal position if you encounter this difficulty and are interested in some financial response from Toyota. IANAL.</p><p>Also, what real information do you have about their testing or development process?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Take the update .
If you decline it , you are in an unfortunate legal position if you encounter this difficulty and are interested in some financial response from Toyota .
IANAL.Also , what real information do you have about their testing or development process ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Take the update.
If you decline it, you are in an unfortunate legal position if you encounter this difficulty and are interested in some financial response from Toyota.
IANAL.Also, what real information do you have about their testing or development process?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288744</id>
	<title>Re:Their new slogan</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267213500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm all but convinced of this now. American car companies have had to do recalls for problems that are just as big and just as dangerous, but none of them have gotten this much attention since the Firestone tire problem. And in that case the story was that Ford and Firestone kept blaming each other instead of fixing the problem. Here we have a company that's done everything right and yet the government and media will not get off Toyota's back. Since the government now owns GM I can't help seeing the disparity in treatment as conflict of interest in action.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm all but convinced of this now .
American car companies have had to do recalls for problems that are just as big and just as dangerous , but none of them have gotten this much attention since the Firestone tire problem .
And in that case the story was that Ford and Firestone kept blaming each other instead of fixing the problem .
Here we have a company that 's done everything right and yet the government and media will not get off Toyota 's back .
Since the government now owns GM I ca n't help seeing the disparity in treatment as conflict of interest in action .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm all but convinced of this now.
American car companies have had to do recalls for problems that are just as big and just as dangerous, but none of them have gotten this much attention since the Firestone tire problem.
And in that case the story was that Ford and Firestone kept blaming each other instead of fixing the problem.
Here we have a company that's done everything right and yet the government and media will not get off Toyota's back.
Since the government now owns GM I can't help seeing the disparity in treatment as conflict of interest in action.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286622</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31290594</id>
	<title># Separate Causes</title>
	<author>b4upoo</author>
	<datestamp>1267178640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>      Since there seem to be four separate and unrelated reasons for Toyotas accelerating out of control it is difficult to speculate as to how many have a software glitch, a short circuit issue, lose floor mats, or a worn linkage.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Since there seem to be four separate and unrelated reasons for Toyotas accelerating out of control it is difficult to speculate as to how many have a software glitch , a short circuit issue , lose floor mats , or a worn linkage .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>      Since there seem to be four separate and unrelated reasons for Toyotas accelerating out of control it is difficult to speculate as to how many have a software glitch, a short circuit issue, lose floor mats, or a worn linkage.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31293840</id>
	<title>Terrible question.</title>
	<author>Boarder2</author>
	<datestamp>1267197660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And I'm glad you don't work for me.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And I 'm glad you do n't work for me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And I'm glad you don't work for me.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31290638</id>
	<title>You are affraid you car will get "Bricked"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267178940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So you fell Bootloaders are not reliable?  I am sure they are going to cover it if it got bricked.  Or you will be on the news. "They bricked my car and will not fix it"<br>Two, There is something wrong with it, Balance Not updating with updating.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So you fell Bootloaders are not reliable ?
I am sure they are going to cover it if it got bricked .
Or you will be on the news .
" They bricked my car and will not fix it " Two , There is something wrong with it , Balance Not updating with updating .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So you fell Bootloaders are not reliable?
I am sure they are going to cover it if it got bricked.
Or you will be on the news.
"They bricked my car and will not fix it"Two, There is something wrong with it, Balance Not updating with updating.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288296</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>coolgeek</author>
	<datestamp>1267212000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You know, that was very well stated.  I was going to say, he should instead forego the firmware update, and take the chance at winning a unique category on the Darwin Awards.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You know , that was very well stated .
I was going to say , he should instead forego the firmware update , and take the chance at winning a unique category on the Darwin Awards .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You know, that was very well stated.
I was going to say, he should instead forego the firmware update, and take the chance at winning a unique category on the Darwin Awards.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286652</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286100</id>
	<title>If you don't</title>
	<author>cmiller173</author>
	<datestamp>1267204920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you don't take the patch and later have the problem you will likely have lost the ability to sue if necessary.  Also, if you live in a state with the concept of "contributory negligence" in it's laws you could be found partially or fully at fault for any accidents that would have been prevented by the patch.  Eventually insurance companies are going to realize that they could deny claims in accidents if the driver's car is not fully patched.

So yes, take the patch</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you do n't take the patch and later have the problem you will likely have lost the ability to sue if necessary .
Also , if you live in a state with the concept of " contributory negligence " in it 's laws you could be found partially or fully at fault for any accidents that would have been prevented by the patch .
Eventually insurance companies are going to realize that they could deny claims in accidents if the driver 's car is not fully patched .
So yes , take the patch</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you don't take the patch and later have the problem you will likely have lost the ability to sue if necessary.
Also, if you live in a state with the concept of "contributory negligence" in it's laws you could be found partially or fully at fault for any accidents that would have been prevented by the patch.
Eventually insurance companies are going to realize that they could deny claims in accidents if the driver's car is not fully patched.
So yes, take the patch</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31291564</id>
	<title>Re:Crap! That sucks!</title>
	<author>assassinator42</author>
	<datestamp>1267183980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Of course the brakes could still fail if the brake line breaks or springs a leak, the later of which has happened to me. Luckily I noticed before I left my sidestreet.<br>And don't the cars involved in the recall still have emergency brakes that are not electronically controller?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Of course the brakes could still fail if the brake line breaks or springs a leak , the later of which has happened to me .
Luckily I noticed before I left my sidestreet.And do n't the cars involved in the recall still have emergency brakes that are not electronically controller ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Of course the brakes could still fail if the brake line breaks or springs a leak, the later of which has happened to me.
Luckily I noticed before I left my sidestreet.And don't the cars involved in the recall still have emergency brakes that are not electronically controller?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286794</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287102</id>
	<title>Do not operate heavy machinery.</title>
	<author>EveLibertine</author>
	<datestamp>1267207980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The fact that this question is even being asked indicates that not much thought has really been put into it.

The patch fixes a problem you haven't run into yet, and may never run in to. Maybe patching it will be inconvenient or ultimately unnecessary. But when the consequences of running into the problem that the patch fixes include injuring or killing yourself and others, where's the debate?

If the consequences of running into the bug only ran a risk of you killing yourself, with no possible harm to others, then and only in that case would I recommend against installing the patch.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The fact that this question is even being asked indicates that not much thought has really been put into it .
The patch fixes a problem you have n't run into yet , and may never run in to .
Maybe patching it will be inconvenient or ultimately unnecessary .
But when the consequences of running into the problem that the patch fixes include injuring or killing yourself and others , where 's the debate ?
If the consequences of running into the bug only ran a risk of you killing yourself , with no possible harm to others , then and only in that case would I recommend against installing the patch .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The fact that this question is even being asked indicates that not much thought has really been put into it.
The patch fixes a problem you haven't run into yet, and may never run in to.
Maybe patching it will be inconvenient or ultimately unnecessary.
But when the consequences of running into the problem that the patch fixes include injuring or killing yourself and others, where's the debate?
If the consequences of running into the bug only ran a risk of you killing yourself, with no possible harm to others, then and only in that case would I recommend against installing the patch.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286632</id>
	<title>Not accepting update = future warranty hassles</title>
	<author>Fazeshift</author>
	<datestamp>1267206540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My $0.02 and experience on this...<br>Several years ago, I refused an update to a 2003 Nissan. To sum it up, the engine could stall due to a poorly-made crank position sensor (CPS). Nissan determined it was cheaper to issue a firmware update than replace the all of the sensors. The update lets the PCM cope with bad CPS signals, so that it does not stall, but other side effects (tach stops working, etc) remain because the root cause (CPS) went unaddressed. I declined the update, as I had already taken the initiative to replace the bad CPS with the updated sensor myself. It resolved all issues.</p><p>Fast forward a couple years. Due to other mechanical design/manufacturing defects the engine failed (QR25DE - prone to pre-cat failure and power-valve screw ingestion, causing scoured cylinder walls then ring failure) @ 59K miles. The vehicle was well-cared for, unmodified, etc. When it came time to make a warranty claim, several dealers flat-out refused to help me, many citing the unaddressed firmware update.</p><p>That might not have been legal, moral, or business-smart (retain me as customer) but point is - if you care about your warranty, refusing an update is opening the door for future hassle, should something (even unrelated, like my issue) happen. Apparently being an informed/educated/opinionated owner isn't an advantage.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My $ 0.02 and experience on this...Several years ago , I refused an update to a 2003 Nissan .
To sum it up , the engine could stall due to a poorly-made crank position sensor ( CPS ) .
Nissan determined it was cheaper to issue a firmware update than replace the all of the sensors .
The update lets the PCM cope with bad CPS signals , so that it does not stall , but other side effects ( tach stops working , etc ) remain because the root cause ( CPS ) went unaddressed .
I declined the update , as I had already taken the initiative to replace the bad CPS with the updated sensor myself .
It resolved all issues.Fast forward a couple years .
Due to other mechanical design/manufacturing defects the engine failed ( QR25DE - prone to pre-cat failure and power-valve screw ingestion , causing scoured cylinder walls then ring failure ) @ 59K miles .
The vehicle was well-cared for , unmodified , etc .
When it came time to make a warranty claim , several dealers flat-out refused to help me , many citing the unaddressed firmware update.That might not have been legal , moral , or business-smart ( retain me as customer ) but point is - if you care about your warranty , refusing an update is opening the door for future hassle , should something ( even unrelated , like my issue ) happen .
Apparently being an informed/educated/opinionated owner is n't an advantage .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My $0.02 and experience on this...Several years ago, I refused an update to a 2003 Nissan.
To sum it up, the engine could stall due to a poorly-made crank position sensor (CPS).
Nissan determined it was cheaper to issue a firmware update than replace the all of the sensors.
The update lets the PCM cope with bad CPS signals, so that it does not stall, but other side effects (tach stops working, etc) remain because the root cause (CPS) went unaddressed.
I declined the update, as I had already taken the initiative to replace the bad CPS with the updated sensor myself.
It resolved all issues.Fast forward a couple years.
Due to other mechanical design/manufacturing defects the engine failed (QR25DE - prone to pre-cat failure and power-valve screw ingestion, causing scoured cylinder walls then ring failure) @ 59K miles.
The vehicle was well-cared for, unmodified, etc.
When it came time to make a warranty claim, several dealers flat-out refused to help me, many citing the unaddressed firmware update.That might not have been legal, moral, or business-smart (retain me as customer) but point is - if you care about your warranty, refusing an update is opening the door for future hassle, should something (even unrelated, like my issue) happen.
Apparently being an informed/educated/opinionated owner isn't an advantage.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31294540</id>
	<title>What About Stops On Hills?</title>
	<author>littlewink</author>
	<datestamp>1267204740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When at a stop while driving uphill a common technique is to use the left foot to control the brake and the right to control the throttle. When the light changes to green, you don't let off the brake until the throttle has been opened sufficiently to prevent the car from rolling backwards. If you don't use this technique then, when you lift your foot from the brake, <b> <i>the car rolls backwards!</i> </b>  Note that this is done only in this particular circumstance and that, in general, it is dangerous to drive using both feet. This is a rare instance where it is unsafe to drive <i>without</i> using both feet.</p><p>With the modified software, this will no longer be possible. So on a hillside stop your car may roll backward into following cars because any brake pedal pressure whatsoever will reduce throttle to 0. What is worse, pedestrians skipping between cars may be crushed. Please convince me I am wrong.</p><p>There are advantages to the "analog" feedback present in the drivetrain of older cars that lack software control.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When at a stop while driving uphill a common technique is to use the left foot to control the brake and the right to control the throttle .
When the light changes to green , you do n't let off the brake until the throttle has been opened sufficiently to prevent the car from rolling backwards .
If you do n't use this technique then , when you lift your foot from the brake , the car rolls backwards !
Note that this is done only in this particular circumstance and that , in general , it is dangerous to drive using both feet .
This is a rare instance where it is unsafe to drive without using both feet.With the modified software , this will no longer be possible .
So on a hillside stop your car may roll backward into following cars because any brake pedal pressure whatsoever will reduce throttle to 0 .
What is worse , pedestrians skipping between cars may be crushed .
Please convince me I am wrong.There are advantages to the " analog " feedback present in the drivetrain of older cars that lack software control .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When at a stop while driving uphill a common technique is to use the left foot to control the brake and the right to control the throttle.
When the light changes to green, you don't let off the brake until the throttle has been opened sufficiently to prevent the car from rolling backwards.
If you don't use this technique then, when you lift your foot from the brake,  the car rolls backwards!
Note that this is done only in this particular circumstance and that, in general, it is dangerous to drive using both feet.
This is a rare instance where it is unsafe to drive without using both feet.With the modified software, this will no longer be possible.
So on a hillside stop your car may roll backward into following cars because any brake pedal pressure whatsoever will reduce throttle to 0.
What is worse, pedestrians skipping between cars may be crushed.
Please convince me I am wrong.There are advantages to the "analog" feedback present in the drivetrain of older cars that lack software control.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287708</id>
	<title>Re:I call shanagans.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267210080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Even non-developers shouldn't ask this question.<br>
<br>
"Well, they recommend I get this safety fix for my car.  I know that sometimes software updates brick things with computers.  The alternative is my car potentially going ape shit and killing someone since I can't stop.  But I <b>really like driving</b>! Should I update my car?"</htmltext>
<tokenext>Even non-developers should n't ask this question .
" Well , they recommend I get this safety fix for my car .
I know that sometimes software updates brick things with computers .
The alternative is my car potentially going ape shit and killing someone since I ca n't stop .
But I really like driving !
Should I update my car ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Even non-developers shouldn't ask this question.
"Well, they recommend I get this safety fix for my car.
I know that sometimes software updates brick things with computers.
The alternative is my car potentially going ape shit and killing someone since I can't stop.
But I really like driving!
Should I update my car?
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286322</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287368</id>
	<title>An attempted logical analysis of this question.</title>
	<author>brasscount</author>
	<datestamp>1267208940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p> <i>In the computer world, we're all taught to only install firmware updates if there is a real problem because a large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardware or cause other unforeseen bugs.</i></p></div> </blockquote><p>In the computer security world, we craft effigies of people like you and burn them for not installing the patch that causes the security failure.  Lets see if I can follow the logic:
<br> <br>
1)The patch that prevents me from dying might break my car.<br>
2)My car is under warranty.<br>
3)My dealer will install the patch, and therefore accept liability for breaking my car.<br> <br><nobr> <wbr></nobr>.: I should:<br>
a) Not accept the patch, and risk <strong>DYING.</strong> <br>
b) Let the dealer install the patch, understanding that he must fix the car that he breaks while doing the warranty repair work, and accept the consequences, up to and including the dealer providing a new car for breaking my car.<br> <br>

Can anyone help me to understand the argument against installing the update?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>In the computer world , we 're all taught to only install firmware updates if there is a real problem because a large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardware or cause other unforeseen bugs .
In the computer security world , we craft effigies of people like you and burn them for not installing the patch that causes the security failure .
Lets see if I can follow the logic : 1 ) The patch that prevents me from dying might break my car .
2 ) My car is under warranty .
3 ) My dealer will install the patch , and therefore accept liability for breaking my car .
. : I should : a ) Not accept the patch , and risk DYING .
b ) Let the dealer install the patch , understanding that he must fix the car that he breaks while doing the warranty repair work , and accept the consequences , up to and including the dealer providing a new car for breaking my car .
Can anyone help me to understand the argument against installing the update ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext> In the computer world, we're all taught to only install firmware updates if there is a real problem because a large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardware or cause other unforeseen bugs.
In the computer security world, we craft effigies of people like you and burn them for not installing the patch that causes the security failure.
Lets see if I can follow the logic:
 
1)The patch that prevents me from dying might break my car.
2)My car is under warranty.
3)My dealer will install the patch, and therefore accept liability for breaking my car.
.: I should:
a) Not accept the patch, and risk DYING.
b) Let the dealer install the patch, understanding that he must fix the car that he breaks while doing the warranty repair work, and accept the consequences, up to and including the dealer providing a new car for breaking my car.
Can anyone help me to understand the argument against installing the update?
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286194</id>
	<title>Re:If it bricks, it's their fault.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267205160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If it bricks then they have to replace the computer...</p><p>If you opt NOT to have the recall done, you actually may violate your warranty.  Furthermore, you loose any legal protection in the event of an accident.</p><p>There is already one Toyota owner who's in jail because of his run-away car that slammed into someone else and killed three people.  This was a year before the public knew about all of this.</p><p>Luckily for him, he now has a chance to appeal his case and get set free.  Even the familys of the victums are pulling to have him retried now because of the relevation his car was one of these recalled cars.</p><p>If you "opt" not to have this issue fixed and your car goes out of control and property is damaged or life harmed, you will not have any defense and be the one that is sued and doing the jail time.  Once you opt to not have the recall done, you loose the right to sue or pass blame onto Toyota.</p><p>As for firmware updates, etc.  What field do you work in again where you dont apply these?  Bricked systems from bad updates or firmware updates are rare.  And oft times the additional or corrected functionality is much more prefered.</p><p>Are you still developing for and on Windows XP with no service packs and security updates?  Please tell me what company you work for so that I know to avoid their products...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If it bricks then they have to replace the computer...If you opt NOT to have the recall done , you actually may violate your warranty .
Furthermore , you loose any legal protection in the event of an accident.There is already one Toyota owner who 's in jail because of his run-away car that slammed into someone else and killed three people .
This was a year before the public knew about all of this.Luckily for him , he now has a chance to appeal his case and get set free .
Even the familys of the victums are pulling to have him retried now because of the relevation his car was one of these recalled cars.If you " opt " not to have this issue fixed and your car goes out of control and property is damaged or life harmed , you will not have any defense and be the one that is sued and doing the jail time .
Once you opt to not have the recall done , you loose the right to sue or pass blame onto Toyota.As for firmware updates , etc .
What field do you work in again where you dont apply these ?
Bricked systems from bad updates or firmware updates are rare .
And oft times the additional or corrected functionality is much more prefered.Are you still developing for and on Windows XP with no service packs and security updates ?
Please tell me what company you work for so that I know to avoid their products.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If it bricks then they have to replace the computer...If you opt NOT to have the recall done, you actually may violate your warranty.
Furthermore, you loose any legal protection in the event of an accident.There is already one Toyota owner who's in jail because of his run-away car that slammed into someone else and killed three people.
This was a year before the public knew about all of this.Luckily for him, he now has a chance to appeal his case and get set free.
Even the familys of the victums are pulling to have him retried now because of the relevation his car was one of these recalled cars.If you "opt" not to have this issue fixed and your car goes out of control and property is damaged or life harmed, you will not have any defense and be the one that is sued and doing the jail time.
Once you opt to not have the recall done, you loose the right to sue or pass blame onto Toyota.As for firmware updates, etc.
What field do you work in again where you dont apply these?
Bricked systems from bad updates or firmware updates are rare.
And oft times the additional or corrected functionality is much more prefered.Are you still developing for and on Windows XP with no service packs and security updates?
Please tell me what company you work for so that I know to avoid their products...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285928</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286124</id>
	<title>I will say this</title>
	<author>rubycodez</author>
	<datestamp>1267204980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>closed source software model so much more fascinating when there is a body count, no?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>closed source software model so much more fascinating when there is a body count , no ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>closed source software model so much more fascinating when there is a body count, no?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31290946</id>
	<title>Re:Toyotaphobia getting out of hand</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267180380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's 34 deaths attributed to the bug. Guaranteed that this has contributed to many more accidents and was either chalked up to driver error or otherwise just not accounted for in the accident report.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's 34 deaths attributed to the bug .
Guaranteed that this has contributed to many more accidents and was either chalked up to driver error or otherwise just not accounted for in the accident report .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's 34 deaths attributed to the bug.
Guaranteed that this has contributed to many more accidents and was either chalked up to driver error or otherwise just not accounted for in the accident report.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286300</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31289136</id>
	<title>Answered Your Own Question</title>
	<author>infamous\_blah</author>
	<datestamp>1267215000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>In the computer world, we're all taught to install firmware updates only if there is a real problem</p></div><p>Based on the news, I'd say you answered your own question.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>In the computer world , we 're all taught to install firmware updates only if there is a real problemBased on the news , I 'd say you answered your own question .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In the computer world, we're all taught to install firmware updates only if there is a real problemBased on the news, I'd say you answered your own question.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287202</id>
	<title>woz</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267208340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>3 2 1 woz appears!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>3 2 1 woz appears !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>3 2 1 woz appears!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286472</id>
	<title>Haha awesome logic</title>
	<author>DeanLearner</author>
	<datestamp>1267206120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I like it, from this day forward, I will stick with the unknowns I currently don't know, rather than the unknowns I could potentially not know.<br> <br>

I mean, better the devil you don't know now, than the devil you might not know when and if something happens, that's the saying right?<br> <br>

My stomach hurts, I don't know how serious it is but I won't fix it though, because fixing it could lead to other problems.<br> <br>

Something of my code doesn't work as expected, hell, at least I know what might go wrong instead of all the possible wrongs I could meet from fixing it.<br> <br>

Hell, i can't believe I've been living my life so wrecklessly!</htmltext>
<tokenext>I like it , from this day forward , I will stick with the unknowns I currently do n't know , rather than the unknowns I could potentially not know .
I mean , better the devil you do n't know now , than the devil you might not know when and if something happens , that 's the saying right ?
My stomach hurts , I do n't know how serious it is but I wo n't fix it though , because fixing it could lead to other problems .
Something of my code does n't work as expected , hell , at least I know what might go wrong instead of all the possible wrongs I could meet from fixing it .
Hell , i ca n't believe I 've been living my life so wrecklessly !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I like it, from this day forward, I will stick with the unknowns I currently don't know, rather than the unknowns I could potentially not know.
I mean, better the devil you don't know now, than the devil you might not know when and if something happens, that's the saying right?
My stomach hurts, I don't know how serious it is but I won't fix it though, because fixing it could lead to other problems.
Something of my code doesn't work as expected, hell, at least I know what might go wrong instead of all the possible wrongs I could meet from fixing it.
Hell, i can't believe I've been living my life so wrecklessly!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31290198</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267176900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Plus I *guarantee* that, even if Toyota failed to test any other part in the part, they tested the watchdog that makes sure the system boots far enough to load new firmware. It's a standard part in any embedded computer system related to expensive hardware, because the cost of replacing the system after a bad firmware load is much too high. And because there's a good chance that, over the course of software development, someone went through a bad firmware load and triggered the watchdog.</p><p>But I know<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. has redefined "brick" to mean "must re-load the device to a default state using a well-defined procedure and normal interfaces" as opposed to the original meaning of "must pop the (hopefully socketed) chips to reprogram them in another device, or reprogram in-place with a special debug interface".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Plus I * guarantee * that , even if Toyota failed to test any other part in the part , they tested the watchdog that makes sure the system boots far enough to load new firmware .
It 's a standard part in any embedded computer system related to expensive hardware , because the cost of replacing the system after a bad firmware load is much too high .
And because there 's a good chance that , over the course of software development , someone went through a bad firmware load and triggered the watchdog.But I know / .
has redefined " brick " to mean " must re-load the device to a default state using a well-defined procedure and normal interfaces " as opposed to the original meaning of " must pop the ( hopefully socketed ) chips to reprogram them in another device , or reprogram in-place with a special debug interface " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Plus I *guarantee* that, even if Toyota failed to test any other part in the part, they tested the watchdog that makes sure the system boots far enough to load new firmware.
It's a standard part in any embedded computer system related to expensive hardware, because the cost of replacing the system after a bad firmware load is much too high.
And because there's a good chance that, over the course of software development, someone went through a bad firmware load and triggered the watchdog.But I know /.
has redefined "brick" to mean "must re-load the device to a default state using a well-defined procedure and normal interfaces" as opposed to the original meaning of "must pop the (hopefully socketed) chips to reprogram them in another device, or reprogram in-place with a special debug interface".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286652</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31290690</id>
	<title>I've had throttle by wire for 10 years</title>
	<author>YesIAmAScript</author>
	<datestamp>1267179240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And no problems figuring out which pedal I was pressing and how hard. As if a spring on the other end of a throttle cable somehow were superior in feel to a spring on the pedal down by your foot. Insane.</p><p>There is no car with brake-by-wire, the pedal always operates the brakes directly, but the computer may modulate the boost for you to change exactly how much it does it. But even if the computer craps out completely, you still have that direct hydraulic connection to the master cylinder and from there to the brake pads.</p><p>So in summary, it's in your head.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And no problems figuring out which pedal I was pressing and how hard .
As if a spring on the other end of a throttle cable somehow were superior in feel to a spring on the pedal down by your foot .
Insane.There is no car with brake-by-wire , the pedal always operates the brakes directly , but the computer may modulate the boost for you to change exactly how much it does it .
But even if the computer craps out completely , you still have that direct hydraulic connection to the master cylinder and from there to the brake pads.So in summary , it 's in your head .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And no problems figuring out which pedal I was pressing and how hard.
As if a spring on the other end of a throttle cable somehow were superior in feel to a spring on the pedal down by your foot.
Insane.There is no car with brake-by-wire, the pedal always operates the brakes directly, but the computer may modulate the boost for you to change exactly how much it does it.
But even if the computer craps out completely, you still have that direct hydraulic connection to the master cylinder and from there to the brake pads.So in summary, it's in your head.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286794</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286496</id>
	<title>I'm correct againg !!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267206180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Drive-by-wire  !!</p><p>Yours In Ashgabat,<br>K. Trout</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Drive-by-wire !
! Yours In Ashgabat,K .
Trout</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Drive-by-wire  !
!Yours In Ashgabat,K.
Trout</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31289478</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>graphicartist82</author>
	<datestamp>1267216500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>How can I trust that that push-button ignition will still shut off the car?  I know it's conceivable that even a key-start ignition might turn all ignition control over to an ECM, but who's done that?</p></div><p>Saturn and GM did, somewhat. I have a 2006 Saturn ION and you turn the key to the start position and it "automatically" cranks the engine from there.
<br> <br>
 I hadn't completely shut my door one night and the dome light nearly drained the battery. I turned the key to start and let it go just like normal. The "computer" kept cranking the engine until the car started.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>How can I trust that that push-button ignition will still shut off the car ?
I know it 's conceivable that even a key-start ignition might turn all ignition control over to an ECM , but who 's done that ? Saturn and GM did , somewhat .
I have a 2006 Saturn ION and you turn the key to the start position and it " automatically " cranks the engine from there .
I had n't completely shut my door one night and the dome light nearly drained the battery .
I turned the key to start and let it go just like normal .
The " computer " kept cranking the engine until the car started .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How can I trust that that push-button ignition will still shut off the car?
I know it's conceivable that even a key-start ignition might turn all ignition control over to an ECM, but who's done that?Saturn and GM did, somewhat.
I have a 2006 Saturn ION and you turn the key to the start position and it "automatically" cranks the engine from there.
I hadn't completely shut my door one night and the dome light nearly drained the battery.
I turned the key to start and let it go just like normal.
The "computer" kept cranking the engine until the car started.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288360</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31293278</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267193700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I know it's conceivable that even a key-start ignition might turn all ignition control over to an ECM, but who's done that?</p></div><p>Ford? I know in my Mercury Milan it certainly BEHAVES this way. I don't have to hold the key to crank the engine. Systems get disabled during long cranks. Things remain on when the key is turned to off. And why not? The whole rest of the car is computerized. My gear shifter (yes, automatic) can't possibly be attached to the transmission. My accelerator pedal is DBW. Headlights, radio, rear view mirror, trunk release -- all computers. Hell the radio computer(s) is(are) running Microsoft code. Newer Fusion Hybrids are running with brake by wire systems with a hydraulic back up. Lincolns running nearly the same systems will park themselves for the most part -- so steering is under some form of computer control. Never mind the newer safety systems like traction control, ABS, brake force distribution, etc -- they have their grubby little fingers in everything too.</p><p>And it's not even just cars any more. I have a Yamaha Zuma scooter too. She's fuel injected, so there's some fuel map somewhere doing that dirty work. Honda now has a DBW throttle on a bike. Bikes have ABS and traction control now too.</p><p>Really, if you want a car without any code in it, buy a Toyota Hilux!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I know it 's conceivable that even a key-start ignition might turn all ignition control over to an ECM , but who 's done that ? Ford ?
I know in my Mercury Milan it certainly BEHAVES this way .
I do n't have to hold the key to crank the engine .
Systems get disabled during long cranks .
Things remain on when the key is turned to off .
And why not ?
The whole rest of the car is computerized .
My gear shifter ( yes , automatic ) ca n't possibly be attached to the transmission .
My accelerator pedal is DBW .
Headlights , radio , rear view mirror , trunk release -- all computers .
Hell the radio computer ( s ) is ( are ) running Microsoft code .
Newer Fusion Hybrids are running with brake by wire systems with a hydraulic back up .
Lincolns running nearly the same systems will park themselves for the most part -- so steering is under some form of computer control .
Never mind the newer safety systems like traction control , ABS , brake force distribution , etc -- they have their grubby little fingers in everything too.And it 's not even just cars any more .
I have a Yamaha Zuma scooter too .
She 's fuel injected , so there 's some fuel map somewhere doing that dirty work .
Honda now has a DBW throttle on a bike .
Bikes have ABS and traction control now too.Really , if you want a car without any code in it , buy a Toyota Hilux !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I know it's conceivable that even a key-start ignition might turn all ignition control over to an ECM, but who's done that?Ford?
I know in my Mercury Milan it certainly BEHAVES this way.
I don't have to hold the key to crank the engine.
Systems get disabled during long cranks.
Things remain on when the key is turned to off.
And why not?
The whole rest of the car is computerized.
My gear shifter (yes, automatic) can't possibly be attached to the transmission.
My accelerator pedal is DBW.
Headlights, radio, rear view mirror, trunk release -- all computers.
Hell the radio computer(s) is(are) running Microsoft code.
Newer Fusion Hybrids are running with brake by wire systems with a hydraulic back up.
Lincolns running nearly the same systems will park themselves for the most part -- so steering is under some form of computer control.
Never mind the newer safety systems like traction control, ABS, brake force distribution, etc -- they have their grubby little fingers in everything too.And it's not even just cars any more.
I have a Yamaha Zuma scooter too.
She's fuel injected, so there's some fuel map somewhere doing that dirty work.
Honda now has a DBW throttle on a bike.
Bikes have ABS and traction control now too.Really, if you want a car without any code in it, buy a Toyota Hilux!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288360</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286482</id>
	<title>Dealer service == firmware upgrade.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267206120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you have had a main dealer service. You will probably have had an ECU upgrade at the same time.</p><p>Why worry about something that has happened before.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you have had a main dealer service .
You will probably have had an ECU upgrade at the same time.Why worry about something that has happened before .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you have had a main dealer service.
You will probably have had an ECU upgrade at the same time.Why worry about something that has happened before.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285952</id>
	<title>Are you kidding?</title>
	<author>Spazmania</author>
	<datestamp>1267204440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Take the upgrade. Shipping firmware always has bugs. Always. As a system administrator, the first thing I do out of the box is download and install the current firmware while it's still under warranty. And if they brick your computer they'll replace it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Take the upgrade .
Shipping firmware always has bugs .
Always. As a system administrator , the first thing I do out of the box is download and install the current firmware while it 's still under warranty .
And if they brick your computer they 'll replace it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Take the upgrade.
Shipping firmware always has bugs.
Always. As a system administrator, the first thing I do out of the box is download and install the current firmware while it's still under warranty.
And if they brick your computer they'll replace it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286562</id>
	<title>Test it yourself</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267206360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Here's how you should determine whether or not you really need the software upgrade: test your car pre-update.  Take your car someplace safe, get up to 75 miles an hour, then floor both the gas and the brake pedal at the same time.  See what happens.  Because of brake fade, this test should actually be run one more time.</p><p>I saw this done in a car magazine recently, and if I recall correctly, the Camry did not fare well at all.</p><p>I know what you're thinking--"I'm a fast thinker--I would just throw the car into neutral."  Good luck thinking of that when you're doing 75 miles an hour and your car is accelerating toward the car in front of you without your consent.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Here 's how you should determine whether or not you really need the software upgrade : test your car pre-update .
Take your car someplace safe , get up to 75 miles an hour , then floor both the gas and the brake pedal at the same time .
See what happens .
Because of brake fade , this test should actually be run one more time.I saw this done in a car magazine recently , and if I recall correctly , the Camry did not fare well at all.I know what you 're thinking-- " I 'm a fast thinker--I would just throw the car into neutral .
" Good luck thinking of that when you 're doing 75 miles an hour and your car is accelerating toward the car in front of you without your consent .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here's how you should determine whether or not you really need the software upgrade: test your car pre-update.
Take your car someplace safe, get up to 75 miles an hour, then floor both the gas and the brake pedal at the same time.
See what happens.
Because of brake fade, this test should actually be run one more time.I saw this done in a car magazine recently, and if I recall correctly, the Camry did not fare well at all.I know what you're thinking--"I'm a fast thinker--I would just throw the car into neutral.
"  Good luck thinking of that when you're doing 75 miles an hour and your car is accelerating toward the car in front of you without your consent.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288944</id>
	<title>The REAL problem</title>
	<author>Frizbie</author>
	<datestamp>1267214400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The real problem is not known yet, so if it turns out that Toyota has an electronical problem that hasn't been identified yet, then you'll still be susceptible of going Mach 10 into a random object. I'd either not drive much or get rid of my recalled vehicle in the interest of self preservation.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The real problem is not known yet , so if it turns out that Toyota has an electronical problem that has n't been identified yet , then you 'll still be susceptible of going Mach 10 into a random object .
I 'd either not drive much or get rid of my recalled vehicle in the interest of self preservation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The real problem is not known yet, so if it turns out that Toyota has an electronical problem that hasn't been identified yet, then you'll still be susceptible of going Mach 10 into a random object.
I'd either not drive much or get rid of my recalled vehicle in the interest of self preservation.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286300</id>
	<title>Toyotaphobia getting out of hand</title>
	<author>guanxi</author>
	<datestamp>1267205520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think the anti-Toyota mania is getting a little out of hand. The problem caused 34 deaths in 10 years. Given the tens (hundreds?) of millions of Toyotas on the road, it's actually not a big deal. It's an unimaginable tragedy to the people and families that died, and it should be fixed. But as a public safety issue, more people died of lightening strikes and bee stings during that period. Heart disease kills over 1,000 Americans per day. Let's keep it in perspective.</p><p>Now we don't trust their firmware updates? I think their safety record is pretty good. You're driving their car at death-defying speeds, aren't you?</p><p>The concept of a firmware update for your car is pretty interesting, though.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think the anti-Toyota mania is getting a little out of hand .
The problem caused 34 deaths in 10 years .
Given the tens ( hundreds ?
) of millions of Toyotas on the road , it 's actually not a big deal .
It 's an unimaginable tragedy to the people and families that died , and it should be fixed .
But as a public safety issue , more people died of lightening strikes and bee stings during that period .
Heart disease kills over 1,000 Americans per day .
Let 's keep it in perspective.Now we do n't trust their firmware updates ?
I think their safety record is pretty good .
You 're driving their car at death-defying speeds , are n't you ? The concept of a firmware update for your car is pretty interesting , though .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think the anti-Toyota mania is getting a little out of hand.
The problem caused 34 deaths in 10 years.
Given the tens (hundreds?
) of millions of Toyotas on the road, it's actually not a big deal.
It's an unimaginable tragedy to the people and families that died, and it should be fixed.
But as a public safety issue, more people died of lightening strikes and bee stings during that period.
Heart disease kills over 1,000 Americans per day.
Let's keep it in perspective.Now we don't trust their firmware updates?
I think their safety record is pretty good.
You're driving their car at death-defying speeds, aren't you?The concept of a firmware update for your car is pretty interesting, though.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286220</id>
	<title>Known Bad vs Unknowns</title>
	<author>Shihar</author>
	<datestamp>1267205220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, Toyota is giving hearings on capital hill, they have taken a non-trivial finical hit, and I think their president is one piece of bad news away from sepaku.  Yeah, you can probably trust that they did everything in their power not to screw it up.  I probably would take a potentially unknown problem on a firmware updates that is being watched by dozens of agencies and internal company auditors over a firmware that is known bad with a questionable dedication to quality.  Even if their is a problem, it is a safe bet that it will be detected very early due to the number of eyes on it.</p><p>Having been inside of a company that has had to do a recall, I can say that nothing sharpens a company's overzealous safety instincts and risk avoidance mania than a major recall.  Recalls, especially the type that Toyota is experiencing, are a complete disaster for the company.  They are extremely expensive both in terms of cost and reputation.  I am pretty sure that the internal state of Toyota right now is a safety mania that trumps all else that would make a Puppeteer proud.  In fact, you can probably rest assured that Toyota is currently wildly overshooting the 'proper' levels of safety.  It will probably be a few quarters before they unwind to more reasonable levels.</p><p>You need to consider it from the perspective of a manager.  If you, as a manager, are in charge of a critical safety component, what is in your best interest?  Yeah, you could try and cut a corner and skim an extra 2\% profit that your boss might or might not notice, but if it backfires and YOU result in a safety issue, especially in the current environment, you should get a friend with a sword and a basket for your head and save the company the trouble.  Right now, kudos in Toyota are earned by being a safety nut and being the one to discover and 'fix' some absurdly low probability safety concern, not for squeezing the budget a little further.  Speaking as someone who has been in a company in full recall mode, if there is ever a time to trust that a company really is putting safety first, now is the time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , Toyota is giving hearings on capital hill , they have taken a non-trivial finical hit , and I think their president is one piece of bad news away from sepaku .
Yeah , you can probably trust that they did everything in their power not to screw it up .
I probably would take a potentially unknown problem on a firmware updates that is being watched by dozens of agencies and internal company auditors over a firmware that is known bad with a questionable dedication to quality .
Even if their is a problem , it is a safe bet that it will be detected very early due to the number of eyes on it.Having been inside of a company that has had to do a recall , I can say that nothing sharpens a company 's overzealous safety instincts and risk avoidance mania than a major recall .
Recalls , especially the type that Toyota is experiencing , are a complete disaster for the company .
They are extremely expensive both in terms of cost and reputation .
I am pretty sure that the internal state of Toyota right now is a safety mania that trumps all else that would make a Puppeteer proud .
In fact , you can probably rest assured that Toyota is currently wildly overshooting the 'proper ' levels of safety .
It will probably be a few quarters before they unwind to more reasonable levels.You need to consider it from the perspective of a manager .
If you , as a manager , are in charge of a critical safety component , what is in your best interest ?
Yeah , you could try and cut a corner and skim an extra 2 \ % profit that your boss might or might not notice , but if it backfires and YOU result in a safety issue , especially in the current environment , you should get a friend with a sword and a basket for your head and save the company the trouble .
Right now , kudos in Toyota are earned by being a safety nut and being the one to discover and 'fix ' some absurdly low probability safety concern , not for squeezing the budget a little further .
Speaking as someone who has been in a company in full recall mode , if there is ever a time to trust that a company really is putting safety first , now is the time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, Toyota is giving hearings on capital hill, they have taken a non-trivial finical hit, and I think their president is one piece of bad news away from sepaku.
Yeah, you can probably trust that they did everything in their power not to screw it up.
I probably would take a potentially unknown problem on a firmware updates that is being watched by dozens of agencies and internal company auditors over a firmware that is known bad with a questionable dedication to quality.
Even if their is a problem, it is a safe bet that it will be detected very early due to the number of eyes on it.Having been inside of a company that has had to do a recall, I can say that nothing sharpens a company's overzealous safety instincts and risk avoidance mania than a major recall.
Recalls, especially the type that Toyota is experiencing, are a complete disaster for the company.
They are extremely expensive both in terms of cost and reputation.
I am pretty sure that the internal state of Toyota right now is a safety mania that trumps all else that would make a Puppeteer proud.
In fact, you can probably rest assured that Toyota is currently wildly overshooting the 'proper' levels of safety.
It will probably be a few quarters before they unwind to more reasonable levels.You need to consider it from the perspective of a manager.
If you, as a manager, are in charge of a critical safety component, what is in your best interest?
Yeah, you could try and cut a corner and skim an extra 2\% profit that your boss might or might not notice, but if it backfires and YOU result in a safety issue, especially in the current environment, you should get a friend with a sword and a basket for your head and save the company the trouble.
Right now, kudos in Toyota are earned by being a safety nut and being the one to discover and 'fix' some absurdly low probability safety concern, not for squeezing the budget a little further.
Speaking as someone who has been in a company in full recall mode, if there is ever a time to trust that a company really is putting safety first, now is the time.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285976</id>
	<title>I wouldn't do it</title>
	<author>BadAnalogyGuy</author>
	<datestamp>1267204560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There's the chance that the update may turn off any jailbreaks you've already got working. Worst case scenario is that it detects a jailbreak and bricks your car, like you said.</p><p>I'd stick with the white hat hackers who are providing jailbreaking instructions and forgo any manufacturer updates.</p><p>The worst that can happen is that your car becomes susceptible to the sudden acceleration "problem" and you lose control and wipe out a family or farmer's market. But you're inside the car so you'll be fine.</p><p>Plus, you'd have to go down to the dealership and they're going to ask you if you've had any problems and a huge rigmarole just to end up with essentially the same performance you've had all along.</p><p>Too many risks and too few benefits. I'd say no.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's the chance that the update may turn off any jailbreaks you 've already got working .
Worst case scenario is that it detects a jailbreak and bricks your car , like you said.I 'd stick with the white hat hackers who are providing jailbreaking instructions and forgo any manufacturer updates.The worst that can happen is that your car becomes susceptible to the sudden acceleration " problem " and you lose control and wipe out a family or farmer 's market .
But you 're inside the car so you 'll be fine.Plus , you 'd have to go down to the dealership and they 're going to ask you if you 've had any problems and a huge rigmarole just to end up with essentially the same performance you 've had all along.Too many risks and too few benefits .
I 'd say no .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's the chance that the update may turn off any jailbreaks you've already got working.
Worst case scenario is that it detects a jailbreak and bricks your car, like you said.I'd stick with the white hat hackers who are providing jailbreaking instructions and forgo any manufacturer updates.The worst that can happen is that your car becomes susceptible to the sudden acceleration "problem" and you lose control and wipe out a family or farmer's market.
But you're inside the car so you'll be fine.Plus, you'd have to go down to the dealership and they're going to ask you if you've had any problems and a huge rigmarole just to end up with essentially the same performance you've had all along.Too many risks and too few benefits.
I'd say no.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287556</id>
	<title>Re:Toyotaphobia getting out of hand</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267209660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Obama motors trying to cut competition via

<a href="http://biggovernment.com/brjohnson/2010/02/17/toyota-and-the-union-backed-government-led-witch-hunt/" title="biggovernment.com" rel="nofollow">witch hunt</a> [biggovernment.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>Obama motors trying to cut competition via witch hunt [ biggovernment.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Obama motors trying to cut competition via

witch hunt [biggovernment.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286300</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288706</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>frosty\_tsm</author>
	<datestamp>1267213380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Which is why I don't like push-button ignition.  If my car ever goes into hyperdrive because of a stuck throttle, I take comfort in knowing I still have a kill switch, and I grew up driving tractors and cars without power steering or power-assist braking, so I can cope.

How can I trust that that push-button ignition will still shut off the car?  I know it's conceivable that even a key-start ignition might turn all ignition control over to an ECM, but who's done that?</p></div><p>Push-button ignition can be turned off by holding down the button (kind of like with a computer).  Push-button ignition doesn't stop you from putting the car in neutral.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Which is why I do n't like push-button ignition .
If my car ever goes into hyperdrive because of a stuck throttle , I take comfort in knowing I still have a kill switch , and I grew up driving tractors and cars without power steering or power-assist braking , so I can cope .
How can I trust that that push-button ignition will still shut off the car ?
I know it 's conceivable that even a key-start ignition might turn all ignition control over to an ECM , but who 's done that ? Push-button ignition can be turned off by holding down the button ( kind of like with a computer ) .
Push-button ignition does n't stop you from putting the car in neutral .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Which is why I don't like push-button ignition.
If my car ever goes into hyperdrive because of a stuck throttle, I take comfort in knowing I still have a kill switch, and I grew up driving tractors and cars without power steering or power-assist braking, so I can cope.
How can I trust that that push-button ignition will still shut off the car?
I know it's conceivable that even a key-start ignition might turn all ignition control over to an ECM, but who's done that?Push-button ignition can be turned off by holding down the button (kind of like with a computer).
Push-button ignition doesn't stop you from putting the car in neutral.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288360</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286320</id>
	<title>Safety first</title>
	<author>furball</author>
	<datestamp>1267205580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What are the chances you can be harmed sitting behind the wheel of a bricked car?</p><p>What are the chances you can be harmed sitting behind the wheel of a car with known safety issues with unpatched firmware?</p><p>Right.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What are the chances you can be harmed sitting behind the wheel of a bricked car ? What are the chances you can be harmed sitting behind the wheel of a car with known safety issues with unpatched firmware ? Right .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What are the chances you can be harmed sitting behind the wheel of a bricked car?What are the chances you can be harmed sitting behind the wheel of a car with known safety issues with unpatched firmware?Right.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31289382</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267216020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I completely agree. I've always suspected that it was a software issue and the presence of a software 'fix' only serves to verify my suspicions. These systems should be open sourced so that we, as the general public, can ensure that the vehicle is safe to drive (and possibly make some fun modifications) or we should go back to mechanical linkage on all critical driving systems.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I completely agree .
I 've always suspected that it was a software issue and the presence of a software 'fix ' only serves to verify my suspicions .
These systems should be open sourced so that we , as the general public , can ensure that the vehicle is safe to drive ( and possibly make some fun modifications ) or we should go back to mechanical linkage on all critical driving systems .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I completely agree.
I've always suspected that it was a software issue and the presence of a software 'fix' only serves to verify my suspicions.
These systems should be open sourced so that we, as the general public, can ensure that the vehicle is safe to drive (and possibly make some fun modifications) or we should go back to mechanical linkage on all critical driving systems.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287676</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31294252</id>
	<title>Is the Toyoto problem electromechanical</title>
	<author>lsatenstein</author>
	<datestamp>1267201800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The gas pedal has to be connected  to a position encoder. I am aware that position encoders usually are a number of tracks around a disk, with a gray code pattern.
As the disk shaft rotates, under the scan heads appears one set of codes. The gray code theory is that between adjacent shaft rotation positions, from all the tracks, only one single bit changes.  But suppose there is an intermittant connection in a readhead for a track.  Then all hell can break loose. If the fault is in a bad place, the encoder can indicate full pedal to the floor. -- Sudden acceleration.

My guess that the acceleration problem is electromachanical, and not in the logic behind managing the fuel injector system.

Putting the braking system to override the accelerator is going to cause many more problems.  It is going to be hell in snowy road or icy road conditions.  Imagine trying to get out from a snow bank. One has to rock the car by accelerating forward, and then backwards using the cars momentum to move the car along. One has to sort or ride the brake while using the accelerator.

The fix may have a big negative impact on winter safety, and may only be acceptable if the brake pedal has to be applied to the maximum to enable the override. That means, a problem in what to do when the vehicle stops and you take your foot off the brake.  Himmmm   That is my opinion.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The gas pedal has to be connected to a position encoder .
I am aware that position encoders usually are a number of tracks around a disk , with a gray code pattern .
As the disk shaft rotates , under the scan heads appears one set of codes .
The gray code theory is that between adjacent shaft rotation positions , from all the tracks , only one single bit changes .
But suppose there is an intermittant connection in a readhead for a track .
Then all hell can break loose .
If the fault is in a bad place , the encoder can indicate full pedal to the floor .
-- Sudden acceleration .
My guess that the acceleration problem is electromachanical , and not in the logic behind managing the fuel injector system .
Putting the braking system to override the accelerator is going to cause many more problems .
It is going to be hell in snowy road or icy road conditions .
Imagine trying to get out from a snow bank .
One has to rock the car by accelerating forward , and then backwards using the cars momentum to move the car along .
One has to sort or ride the brake while using the accelerator .
The fix may have a big negative impact on winter safety , and may only be acceptable if the brake pedal has to be applied to the maximum to enable the override .
That means , a problem in what to do when the vehicle stops and you take your foot off the brake .
Himmmm That is my opinion .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The gas pedal has to be connected  to a position encoder.
I am aware that position encoders usually are a number of tracks around a disk, with a gray code pattern.
As the disk shaft rotates, under the scan heads appears one set of codes.
The gray code theory is that between adjacent shaft rotation positions, from all the tracks, only one single bit changes.
But suppose there is an intermittant connection in a readhead for a track.
Then all hell can break loose.
If the fault is in a bad place, the encoder can indicate full pedal to the floor.
-- Sudden acceleration.
My guess that the acceleration problem is electromachanical, and not in the logic behind managing the fuel injector system.
Putting the braking system to override the accelerator is going to cause many more problems.
It is going to be hell in snowy road or icy road conditions.
Imagine trying to get out from a snow bank.
One has to rock the car by accelerating forward, and then backwards using the cars momentum to move the car along.
One has to sort or ride the brake while using the accelerator.
The fix may have a big negative impact on winter safety, and may only be acceptable if the brake pedal has to be applied to the maximum to enable the override.
That means, a problem in what to do when the vehicle stops and you take your foot off the brake.
Himmmm   That is my opinion.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31293058</id>
	<title>Re:Not if you Heel &amp; Toe</title>
	<author>CharlieMurphy</author>
	<datestamp>1267192320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I was thinking the same thing, however a poster above indicates you can press the brake and accelerator together for up to 1.5 seconds.  If it takes you longer than that to heal &amp; toe, you probably shouldn't be doing it<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)

"3)  Updated the firmware.  After the update, I did a test where I got the car going 30Mph, and then pressed and held the accelerator.  While the accelerator was depressed, I applied the brake with my left foot.  After about 1.5 seconds, the engine RPM went down to idle speed.  I repeated this test 2 more times.  Same result each time."</htmltext>
<tokenext>I was thinking the same thing , however a poster above indicates you can press the brake and accelerator together for up to 1.5 seconds .
If it takes you longer than that to heal &amp; toe , you probably should n't be doing it ; ) " 3 ) Updated the firmware .
After the update , I did a test where I got the car going 30Mph , and then pressed and held the accelerator .
While the accelerator was depressed , I applied the brake with my left foot .
After about 1.5 seconds , the engine RPM went down to idle speed .
I repeated this test 2 more times .
Same result each time .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was thinking the same thing, however a poster above indicates you can press the brake and accelerator together for up to 1.5 seconds.
If it takes you longer than that to heal &amp; toe, you probably shouldn't be doing it ;)

"3)  Updated the firmware.
After the update, I did a test where I got the car going 30Mph, and then pressed and held the accelerator.
While the accelerator was depressed, I applied the brake with my left foot.
After about 1.5 seconds, the engine RPM went down to idle speed.
I repeated this test 2 more times.
Same result each time.
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288402</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31290576</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267178580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't they have a kill switch on it?  Motorcycles have had push starts for years and my bike has two separate kill switches that wi'll immediately shut off the engine.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't they have a kill switch on it ?
Motorcycles have had push starts for years and my bike has two separate kill switches that wi 'll immediately shut off the engine .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't they have a kill switch on it?
Motorcycles have had push starts for years and my bike has two separate kill switches that wi'll immediately shut off the engine.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288360</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286330</id>
	<title>Huh?</title>
	<author>Pokey.Clyde</author>
	<datestamp>1267205580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I don't know what world you live in, but I have yet to see a firmware upgrade that "bricks" most of the hardware it is applied to.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't know what world you live in , but I have yet to see a firmware upgrade that " bricks " most of the hardware it is applied to .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't know what world you live in, but I have yet to see a firmware upgrade that "bricks" most of the hardware it is applied to.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285982</id>
	<title>1st bug found</title>
	<author>JoeHockey</author>
	<datestamp>1267204560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>So if I understand what this update will do, the next time someone is tailgating you and you tap the brake pedal while still maintaining speed your car will shut itself off?  That sounds much safer...</htmltext>
<tokenext>So if I understand what this update will do , the next time someone is tailgating you and you tap the brake pedal while still maintaining speed your car will shut itself off ?
That sounds much safer.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So if I understand what this update will do, the next time someone is tailgating you and you tap the brake pedal while still maintaining speed your car will shut itself off?
That sounds much safer...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287914</id>
	<title>Re:Jane, you ignorant slut...</title>
	<author>Blakey Rat</author>
	<datestamp>1267210800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No shit. I always update the firmware first thing when I get a new computer, or firmware-using device (like a wifi router.) I've never, ever had the device get "bricked," despite the scary warnings on the package. (I do take the basic precautions, like plugging in my laptop instead of using the battery, of course.)</p><p>Anyway, this is ridiculous. He makes it sound as if the entire IT field all agreed at a meeting that we were going to shun firmware updates. I guess I didn't get the memo, if that's the case.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No shit .
I always update the firmware first thing when I get a new computer , or firmware-using device ( like a wifi router .
) I 've never , ever had the device get " bricked , " despite the scary warnings on the package .
( I do take the basic precautions , like plugging in my laptop instead of using the battery , of course .
) Anyway , this is ridiculous .
He makes it sound as if the entire IT field all agreed at a meeting that we were going to shun firmware updates .
I guess I did n't get the memo , if that 's the case .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No shit.
I always update the firmware first thing when I get a new computer, or firmware-using device (like a wifi router.
) I've never, ever had the device get "bricked," despite the scary warnings on the package.
(I do take the basic precautions, like plugging in my laptop instead of using the battery, of course.
)Anyway, this is ridiculous.
He makes it sound as if the entire IT field all agreed at a meeting that we were going to shun firmware updates.
I guess I didn't get the memo, if that's the case.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286082</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31304168</id>
	<title>I've always wondered how starships do it ..</title>
	<author>freaker\_TuC</author>
	<datestamp>1267353420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>On all those spaceships in the sky using warpdrive<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. how not to bump into the nearest star or planet ; do their computers steer to the left/right by starmap while flying faster than light?</p><p>If so, how do they use warpdrive in unexplored areas? I wonder how trekkies have related to these questions...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>On all those spaceships in the sky using warpdrive .. how not to bump into the nearest star or planet ; do their computers steer to the left/right by starmap while flying faster than light ? If so , how do they use warpdrive in unexplored areas ?
I wonder how trekkies have related to these questions.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On all those spaceships in the sky using warpdrive .. how not to bump into the nearest star or planet ; do their computers steer to the left/right by starmap while flying faster than light?If so, how do they use warpdrive in unexplored areas?
I wonder how trekkies have related to these questions...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288604</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31291378</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>frosty\_tsm</author>
	<datestamp>1267182780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><blockquote><div><p>Push-button ignition can be turned off by holding down the button (kind of like with a computer).</p></div></blockquote><p>You can cover a lot of ground in four seconds at freeway speeds.  (410' at 70 mph, to be precise...close to a tenth of a mile.)  Which would you rather have: turn a key and kill the engine right away, or hold down a button for several seconds while your car accelerates out of control?  Push-button ignition sounds like a useless, unnecessary complication of something that's best kept simple.</p></div><p>The family killed in San Diego were on the phone with 911 for over a minute before they crashed.<br> <br>

I've had a throttle stick on me before (certain American muscle car) and it's one of those things you realize right away.  It all comes down to how you respond to it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Push-button ignition can be turned off by holding down the button ( kind of like with a computer ) .You can cover a lot of ground in four seconds at freeway speeds .
( 410 ' at 70 mph , to be precise...close to a tenth of a mile .
) Which would you rather have : turn a key and kill the engine right away , or hold down a button for several seconds while your car accelerates out of control ?
Push-button ignition sounds like a useless , unnecessary complication of something that 's best kept simple.The family killed in San Diego were on the phone with 911 for over a minute before they crashed .
I 've had a throttle stick on me before ( certain American muscle car ) and it 's one of those things you realize right away .
It all comes down to how you respond to it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Push-button ignition can be turned off by holding down the button (kind of like with a computer).You can cover a lot of ground in four seconds at freeway speeds.
(410' at 70 mph, to be precise...close to a tenth of a mile.
)  Which would you rather have: turn a key and kill the engine right away, or hold down a button for several seconds while your car accelerates out of control?
Push-button ignition sounds like a useless, unnecessary complication of something that's best kept simple.The family killed in San Diego were on the phone with 911 for over a minute before they crashed.
I've had a throttle stick on me before (certain American muscle car) and it's one of those things you realize right away.
It all comes down to how you respond to it.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31290070</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285970</id>
	<title>Safety First</title>
	<author>Linker3000</author>
	<datestamp>1267204500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, but make sure you drive the Toyota round a large sandbox for a few days first...maybe you live near a sandy beach or golf course with large bunkers. At a pinch, do your kids have a playpit in the garden? Cat litter tray?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , but make sure you drive the Toyota round a large sandbox for a few days first...maybe you live near a sandy beach or golf course with large bunkers .
At a pinch , do your kids have a playpit in the garden ?
Cat litter tray ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, but make sure you drive the Toyota round a large sandbox for a few days first...maybe you live near a sandy beach or golf course with large bunkers.
At a pinch, do your kids have a playpit in the garden?
Cat litter tray?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31290984</id>
	<title>Re:Flawed Fix</title>
	<author>BLKMGK</author>
	<datestamp>1267180560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Of course it won't stall. Does every other car out there with an E-throttle stall under these circumstances? Nope! Hint: Toyota was just about the only manufacturer NOT doing this and their cars took longer to stop with the gas pedal floored as a result. This is a smart fix, it won't stall the car.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Of course it wo n't stall .
Does every other car out there with an E-throttle stall under these circumstances ?
Nope ! Hint : Toyota was just about the only manufacturer NOT doing this and their cars took longer to stop with the gas pedal floored as a result .
This is a smart fix , it wo n't stall the car .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Of course it won't stall.
Does every other car out there with an E-throttle stall under these circumstances?
Nope! Hint: Toyota was just about the only manufacturer NOT doing this and their cars took longer to stop with the gas pedal floored as a result.
This is a smart fix, it won't stall the car.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287002</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286522</id>
	<title>brake-stands, anyone?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267206180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>would cut power to the engine if both pedals were pressed.</p></div><p>Don't take the update! You won't be able to do brake-stands in your Camry anymore!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>would cut power to the engine if both pedals were pressed.Do n't take the update !
You wo n't be able to do brake-stands in your Camry anymore !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>would cut power to the engine if both pedals were pressed.Don't take the update!
You won't be able to do brake-stands in your Camry anymore!
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286118</id>
	<title>100 million LOC</title>
	<author>Andy Dodd</author>
	<datestamp>1267204980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Even in the most modern car, I find this hard to believe, unless you include the entertainment/nav system in the count.</p><p>In my opinion, it doesn't count since this is typically decoupled heavily from the safety-critical components of the car.</p><p>It is usually easier to write bug-free microcontroller code (ECUs and such) than general purpose PC code.  Also, the distributed nature of most automotive microcontroller code keeps code separated into nice little easily-testable modules.</p><p>There are always exceptions, but it's very rare for a firmware update in a vehicle to cause regressions.  Nearly all of the time, "bugs" in vehicular firmware are really unanticipated results of intentional design choices.  For example, the Partial EMCC (PEMCC) code in early-1990s Chrysler A604 transmission firmware that slowly trashed torque converters was intended to improve fuel economy by partially engaging the torque converter lockup clutch - it turned out this wore out the clutch FAR faster than any of the mechanical engineers anticipated.  In 1993 or so, this feature was removed once its contribution to premature transmission wear was discovered.  (So yeah, this was a case where a bug really WAS originally a feature!)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Even in the most modern car , I find this hard to believe , unless you include the entertainment/nav system in the count.In my opinion , it does n't count since this is typically decoupled heavily from the safety-critical components of the car.It is usually easier to write bug-free microcontroller code ( ECUs and such ) than general purpose PC code .
Also , the distributed nature of most automotive microcontroller code keeps code separated into nice little easily-testable modules.There are always exceptions , but it 's very rare for a firmware update in a vehicle to cause regressions .
Nearly all of the time , " bugs " in vehicular firmware are really unanticipated results of intentional design choices .
For example , the Partial EMCC ( PEMCC ) code in early-1990s Chrysler A604 transmission firmware that slowly trashed torque converters was intended to improve fuel economy by partially engaging the torque converter lockup clutch - it turned out this wore out the clutch FAR faster than any of the mechanical engineers anticipated .
In 1993 or so , this feature was removed once its contribution to premature transmission wear was discovered .
( So yeah , this was a case where a bug really WAS originally a feature !
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Even in the most modern car, I find this hard to believe, unless you include the entertainment/nav system in the count.In my opinion, it doesn't count since this is typically decoupled heavily from the safety-critical components of the car.It is usually easier to write bug-free microcontroller code (ECUs and such) than general purpose PC code.
Also, the distributed nature of most automotive microcontroller code keeps code separated into nice little easily-testable modules.There are always exceptions, but it's very rare for a firmware update in a vehicle to cause regressions.
Nearly all of the time, "bugs" in vehicular firmware are really unanticipated results of intentional design choices.
For example, the Partial EMCC (PEMCC) code in early-1990s Chrysler A604 transmission firmware that slowly trashed torque converters was intended to improve fuel economy by partially engaging the torque converter lockup clutch - it turned out this wore out the clutch FAR faster than any of the mechanical engineers anticipated.
In 1993 or so, this feature was removed once its contribution to premature transmission wear was discovered.
(So yeah, this was a case where a bug really WAS originally a feature!
)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286176</id>
	<title>Well</title>
	<author>ShooterNeo</author>
	<datestamp>1267205100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>100 million lines of code?  Where are they getting this number?  The entire Microsoft ecosystem is about that many lines of code.</p><p>Maybe they mean assembly code?  I'd imagine that the microcontrollers that a car uses are probably programmed with lots of bare metal assembly coding.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>100 million lines of code ?
Where are they getting this number ?
The entire Microsoft ecosystem is about that many lines of code.Maybe they mean assembly code ?
I 'd imagine that the microcontrollers that a car uses are probably programmed with lots of bare metal assembly coding .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>100 million lines of code?
Where are they getting this number?
The entire Microsoft ecosystem is about that many lines of code.Maybe they mean assembly code?
I'd imagine that the microcontrollers that a car uses are probably programmed with lots of bare metal assembly coding.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31289650</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>clamatius</author>
	<datestamp>1267217400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would imagine that putting the car in neutral gear is a better plan than turning the key if the throttle sticks open. Some cars will lock the steering wheel if the key is off.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would imagine that putting the car in neutral gear is a better plan than turning the key if the throttle sticks open .
Some cars will lock the steering wheel if the key is off .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would imagine that putting the car in neutral gear is a better plan than turning the key if the throttle sticks open.
Some cars will lock the steering wheel if the key is off.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288360</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288794</id>
	<title>if it ain't broke</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267213800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>don't fix it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>do n't fix it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>don't fix it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31290928</id>
	<title>Take it...</title>
	<author>BLKMGK</author>
	<datestamp>1267180320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is a pretty simple change. The car has an E-throttle and this change simply makes it react the way the the E-throttle in almost every other manufacturer's car does. The change cuts throttle if the brake and throttle are both pressed for more than a short period of time thus allowing the car to slow more quickly.</p><p>One of the sports car magazines I receive noted that Toyota was the odd one out in the practice of NOT cutting throttle under extended braking. It showed too in their testing where they took a number of cars up to speed, stomped on the gas and brake, and measured the stopping distance. Even high HP cars like the Ford Cobra stopped in a reasonable amount of distance with the Toyota cars showing a noticeably lengthier stopping distance. Oddly - ALL cars were able to stop so these cars going for miles and miles unstoppable seems awful strange. Yes, they did test cars that have been reported to run away from Toyota...</p><p>IMO - it's a worthwhile update that will help stop your car in the event of a runaway situation...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is a pretty simple change .
The car has an E-throttle and this change simply makes it react the way the the E-throttle in almost every other manufacturer 's car does .
The change cuts throttle if the brake and throttle are both pressed for more than a short period of time thus allowing the car to slow more quickly.One of the sports car magazines I receive noted that Toyota was the odd one out in the practice of NOT cutting throttle under extended braking .
It showed too in their testing where they took a number of cars up to speed , stomped on the gas and brake , and measured the stopping distance .
Even high HP cars like the Ford Cobra stopped in a reasonable amount of distance with the Toyota cars showing a noticeably lengthier stopping distance .
Oddly - ALL cars were able to stop so these cars going for miles and miles unstoppable seems awful strange .
Yes , they did test cars that have been reported to run away from Toyota...IMO - it 's a worthwhile update that will help stop your car in the event of a runaway situation.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is a pretty simple change.
The car has an E-throttle and this change simply makes it react the way the the E-throttle in almost every other manufacturer's car does.
The change cuts throttle if the brake and throttle are both pressed for more than a short period of time thus allowing the car to slow more quickly.One of the sports car magazines I receive noted that Toyota was the odd one out in the practice of NOT cutting throttle under extended braking.
It showed too in their testing where they took a number of cars up to speed, stomped on the gas and brake, and measured the stopping distance.
Even high HP cars like the Ford Cobra stopped in a reasonable amount of distance with the Toyota cars showing a noticeably lengthier stopping distance.
Oddly - ALL cars were able to stop so these cars going for miles and miles unstoppable seems awful strange.
Yes, they did test cars that have been reported to run away from Toyota...IMO - it's a worthwhile update that will help stop your car in the event of a runaway situation...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287428</id>
	<title>Just like the Ford Pinto issue</title>
	<author>random coward</author>
	<datestamp>1267209180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The number of deaths due to this problem is about the same as the Ford Pinto "bursting into flames" issue from the late 1970's.
Toyota is hitting a perfect storm of screwed over this. If this had been 4 years ago coming out(and it could have if Toyota weren't so damn arrogant), then there wouldn't have been the political pressure from the UAW to screw Toyota. Historically the UAW has spent their political capital pushing the regulators to go after the companies they work for; they would use that as another lever in their bargaining. Now that they own a couple car companies, they're using that muscle against their competition. Toyota used to get away with not recalling cars over issues, because the regulators weren't being pushed to go after them. GM/Ford/Chrysler had no such luck. Sucks for Toyota that the playing field level has shifted against them now instead of for them.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The number of deaths due to this problem is about the same as the Ford Pinto " bursting into flames " issue from the late 1970 's .
Toyota is hitting a perfect storm of screwed over this .
If this had been 4 years ago coming out ( and it could have if Toyota were n't so damn arrogant ) , then there would n't have been the political pressure from the UAW to screw Toyota .
Historically the UAW has spent their political capital pushing the regulators to go after the companies they work for ; they would use that as another lever in their bargaining .
Now that they own a couple car companies , they 're using that muscle against their competition .
Toyota used to get away with not recalling cars over issues , because the regulators were n't being pushed to go after them .
GM/Ford/Chrysler had no such luck .
Sucks for Toyota that the playing field level has shifted against them now instead of for them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The number of deaths due to this problem is about the same as the Ford Pinto "bursting into flames" issue from the late 1970's.
Toyota is hitting a perfect storm of screwed over this.
If this had been 4 years ago coming out(and it could have if Toyota weren't so damn arrogant), then there wouldn't have been the political pressure from the UAW to screw Toyota.
Historically the UAW has spent their political capital pushing the regulators to go after the companies they work for; they would use that as another lever in their bargaining.
Now that they own a couple car companies, they're using that muscle against their competition.
Toyota used to get away with not recalling cars over issues, because the regulators weren't being pushed to go after them.
GM/Ford/Chrysler had no such luck.
Sucks for Toyota that the playing field level has shifted against them now instead of for them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286300</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286454</id>
	<title>If you don't trust them, then sell the car</title>
	<author>gurps\_npc</author>
	<datestamp>1267206060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Look, either you trust Toyota or you don't.  If you don't trust them, then install the update and sell the car or just junk it if you can't find a buyer.
<p>
If you do trust them, then install the update and use the vehicle.
</p><p>
But using a car with a known flaw without fixing it is just plain STUPID.
</p><p>One easy way to do these things is to ask yourself "What would I tell the jury?"  What if you are driving a friend home and you get into an accident.   Some insurance company sues someone.  What would tell the jury?   How do you think they would react to your "I didn't trust the update" crap.

</p><p> <b> If you don't trust the company, get rid of their product.  If you do trust them, obey their instructions on fixing their flawed product.</b></p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Look , either you trust Toyota or you do n't .
If you do n't trust them , then install the update and sell the car or just junk it if you ca n't find a buyer .
If you do trust them , then install the update and use the vehicle .
But using a car with a known flaw without fixing it is just plain STUPID .
One easy way to do these things is to ask yourself " What would I tell the jury ?
" What if you are driving a friend home and you get into an accident .
Some insurance company sues someone .
What would tell the jury ?
How do you think they would react to your " I did n't trust the update " crap .
If you do n't trust the company , get rid of their product .
If you do trust them , obey their instructions on fixing their flawed product .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Look, either you trust Toyota or you don't.
If you don't trust them, then install the update and sell the car or just junk it if you can't find a buyer.
If you do trust them, then install the update and use the vehicle.
But using a car with a known flaw without fixing it is just plain STUPID.
One easy way to do these things is to ask yourself "What would I tell the jury?
"  What if you are driving a friend home and you get into an accident.
Some insurance company sues someone.
What would tell the jury?
How do you think they would react to your "I didn't trust the update" crap.
If you don't trust the company, get rid of their product.
If you do trust them, obey their instructions on fixing their flawed product.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287664</id>
	<title>Re:Known Bad vs Unknowns</title>
	<author>DerekLyons</author>
	<datestamp>1267209960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I am pretty sure that the internal state of Toyota right now is a safety mania that trumps all else that would make a Puppeteer proud.</p></div></blockquote><blockquote><div><p>Speaking as someone who has been in a company in full recall mode, if there is ever a time to trust that a company really is putting safety first, now is the time.</p></div></blockquote><p>+1 for the Puppeteer reference.</p><p>-2 for seemingly being unaware that Toyota tried to sweep this problem under the rug with the silly nonsense about floor mats.  They only became safety conscious when those efforts to shift blame failed.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I am pretty sure that the internal state of Toyota right now is a safety mania that trumps all else that would make a Puppeteer proud.Speaking as someone who has been in a company in full recall mode , if there is ever a time to trust that a company really is putting safety first , now is the time. + 1 for the Puppeteer reference.-2 for seemingly being unaware that Toyota tried to sweep this problem under the rug with the silly nonsense about floor mats .
They only became safety conscious when those efforts to shift blame failed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am pretty sure that the internal state of Toyota right now is a safety mania that trumps all else that would make a Puppeteer proud.Speaking as someone who has been in a company in full recall mode, if there is ever a time to trust that a company really is putting safety first, now is the time.+1 for the Puppeteer reference.-2 for seemingly being unaware that Toyota tried to sweep this problem under the rug with the silly nonsense about floor mats.
They only became safety conscious when those efforts to shift blame failed.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286220</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287380</id>
	<title>Try this first.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267209000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Any car that doesn't pass the following test should be taken off the road immediately.</p><p>Drive any speed you feel safe at.<br>Press both the gas pedal and the brake pedal as hard as you can at the same time.</p><p>If the brakes are not strong enough or don't have the thermal stamina to eventually bring the car to a stop then your car fails the test.<br>All cars (including incredibly powerful ones) made in the era of disc brakes should pass this test easily.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Any car that does n't pass the following test should be taken off the road immediately.Drive any speed you feel safe at.Press both the gas pedal and the brake pedal as hard as you can at the same time.If the brakes are not strong enough or do n't have the thermal stamina to eventually bring the car to a stop then your car fails the test.All cars ( including incredibly powerful ones ) made in the era of disc brakes should pass this test easily .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Any car that doesn't pass the following test should be taken off the road immediately.Drive any speed you feel safe at.Press both the gas pedal and the brake pedal as hard as you can at the same time.If the brakes are not strong enough or don't have the thermal stamina to eventually bring the car to a stop then your car fails the test.All cars (including incredibly powerful ones) made in the era of disc brakes should pass this test easily.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31339698</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267544400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>GM.  Many of their modern cars don't wire the starter motor to the ignition switch, the switch tells the ECU to begin the engine cranking sequence.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>GM .
Many of their modern cars do n't wire the starter motor to the ignition switch , the switch tells the ECU to begin the engine cranking sequence .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>GM.
Many of their modern cars don't wire the starter motor to the ignition switch, the switch tells the ECU to begin the engine cranking sequence.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288360</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287650</id>
	<title>Not a Bugfix</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267209900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Categorizing this as a "bugfix" is inaccurate at best. Nobody has identified a piece of code that tells the engine to run full throttle and changed it here.  This is an added routine, which simply says if A + B are true, do A - A being brake pedal pressed, B being gas pedal pressed.
Personally, I think that is a simple enough condition to identify and the decision tree is small enough to get right in 3 months of development.
I like the commenter's post on "fatal exception"</htmltext>
<tokenext>Categorizing this as a " bugfix " is inaccurate at best .
Nobody has identified a piece of code that tells the engine to run full throttle and changed it here .
This is an added routine , which simply says if A + B are true , do A - A being brake pedal pressed , B being gas pedal pressed .
Personally , I think that is a simple enough condition to identify and the decision tree is small enough to get right in 3 months of development .
I like the commenter 's post on " fatal exception "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Categorizing this as a "bugfix" is inaccurate at best.
Nobody has identified a piece of code that tells the engine to run full throttle and changed it here.
This is an added routine, which simply says if A + B are true, do A - A being brake pedal pressed, B being gas pedal pressed.
Personally, I think that is a simple enough condition to identify and the decision tree is small enough to get right in 3 months of development.
I like the commenter's post on "fatal exception"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31290604</id>
	<title>Re:Jane, you ignorant slut...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267178760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I suspect this is very similar to how the Toyota dealer will install the new software. They won't do the 'rear window defroster' because they use a special cable to connect there programmer to the car/engine management computer. Turning the power off (or disconnecting the battery) would very likely brick the car, unless they added a ROM to hold the flash programming code (unlikely, since that would upgrading the flash programming code impossible).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I suspect this is very similar to how the Toyota dealer will install the new software .
They wo n't do the 'rear window defroster ' because they use a special cable to connect there programmer to the car/engine management computer .
Turning the power off ( or disconnecting the battery ) would very likely brick the car , unless they added a ROM to hold the flash programming code ( unlikely , since that would upgrading the flash programming code impossible ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I suspect this is very similar to how the Toyota dealer will install the new software.
They won't do the 'rear window defroster' because they use a special cable to connect there programmer to the car/engine management computer.
Turning the power off (or disconnecting the battery) would very likely brick the car, unless they added a ROM to hold the flash programming code (unlikely, since that would upgrading the flash programming code impossible).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287132</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286094</id>
	<title>it is an error catching routine</title>
	<author>computerchimp</author>
	<datestamp>1267204920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes.  Toyota's mechnical fix may not be the actual fix and the root issue may be a software based one.</p><p>The software update is a failsafe, think of it as an error catching routine.  All programs can benefit from error catching routines, problem is that programmers don't have enough time to program for every error possibility.  Toyota has taken the time to add one to their cars.</p><p>cc</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes .
Toyota 's mechnical fix may not be the actual fix and the root issue may be a software based one.The software update is a failsafe , think of it as an error catching routine .
All programs can benefit from error catching routines , problem is that programmers do n't have enough time to program for every error possibility .
Toyota has taken the time to add one to their cars.cc</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes.
Toyota's mechnical fix may not be the actual fix and the root issue may be a software based one.The software update is a failsafe, think of it as an error catching routine.
All programs can benefit from error catching routines, problem is that programmers don't have enough time to program for every error possibility.
Toyota has taken the time to add one to their cars.cc</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286610</id>
	<title>Escalations and Law of averages.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267206480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; "can I really trust a software update to work safely when it is delivered in a three-month development cycle? My driving habits don't cause the floor mat to slide much, so I see the update as overkill. What do you think?"</p><p>Apparently your concept of software development is kind of skewed.  The update was not done in 3 month development period. It was done in maintenance period. It took more than one year between the incident report and the fix. It was a slow response to an ESCALATION,  a high severity and a high priority one at that.</p><p>If your floor mat does not slide much but slides just a little, the law of averages is bound to catch up. This is what I think.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; " can I really trust a software update to work safely when it is delivered in a three-month development cycle ?
My driving habits do n't cause the floor mat to slide much , so I see the update as overkill .
What do you think ?
" Apparently your concept of software development is kind of skewed .
The update was not done in 3 month development period .
It was done in maintenance period .
It took more than one year between the incident report and the fix .
It was a slow response to an ESCALATION , a high severity and a high priority one at that.If your floor mat does not slide much but slides just a little , the law of averages is bound to catch up .
This is what I think .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; "can I really trust a software update to work safely when it is delivered in a three-month development cycle?
My driving habits don't cause the floor mat to slide much, so I see the update as overkill.
What do you think?
"Apparently your concept of software development is kind of skewed.
The update was not done in 3 month development period.
It was done in maintenance period.
It took more than one year between the incident report and the fix.
It was a slow response to an ESCALATION,  a high severity and a high priority one at that.If your floor mat does not slide much but slides just a little, the law of averages is bound to catch up.
This is what I think.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286308</id>
	<title>Pre-Prod</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267205520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You mean you don't own a second car and set of roads for pre prod testing?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You mean you do n't own a second car and set of roads for pre prod testing ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You mean you don't own a second car and set of roads for pre prod testing?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31291168</id>
	<title>Re:I will be getting that firmware update</title>
	<author>BLKMGK</author>
	<datestamp>1267181580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The brakes ARE enough to stop the car even floored. It just takes longer if the e-throttle isn't programmed to back off like every other manufacturers apparently does it. Check the news rack, one of the sports car magazines just tested this and every car in the test to include a Mustang Cobra stopped.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The brakes ARE enough to stop the car even floored .
It just takes longer if the e-throttle is n't programmed to back off like every other manufacturers apparently does it .
Check the news rack , one of the sports car magazines just tested this and every car in the test to include a Mustang Cobra stopped .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The brakes ARE enough to stop the car even floored.
It just takes longer if the e-throttle isn't programmed to back off like every other manufacturers apparently does it.
Check the news rack, one of the sports car magazines just tested this and every car in the test to include a Mustang Cobra stopped.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286198</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31290740</id>
	<title>Re:Take the update. I got it for my 2009 Camry.</title>
	<author>mzs</author>
	<datestamp>1267179420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The chopping off the bottom 4cm is a bad sign. They are not supposed to do this last I heard. It seems to me that they have taken a shortcut for inserting the shim. The service bulletin instructs them to remove the pedal assembly in order to insert the shim. By removing the bottom of the gas pedal they have room to wedge that shim in there without the laborious process of removing and reinstalling it. Also there is more risk that they can get grim in there then (though in the tech is supposed to wipe the outside yet not use compressed air to minimize risk of getting dirt inside).</p><p>Also if you have a Camry it is possible that you have a Denso pedal assembly that did not need the shim if I recall correctly. Maybe there is bulletin that is different for those that I am not aware of.</p><p>If I were you I would take your car to another Toyota service and have them look at it. Then if they say that is unusual, they should contact Toyota in order to for Toyota to authorize the replacement of your gas pedal assembly. They are supposed to measure pedal travel on a workbench, I really wonder why they chopped off the bottom of yours maybe it was very bad? If I am wrong then you will have had any concerns addressed.</p><p>Also the floor mat is a new one with restraints, not that they lopped off chunks of your old one and held it down with something like zip ties, right?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The chopping off the bottom 4cm is a bad sign .
They are not supposed to do this last I heard .
It seems to me that they have taken a shortcut for inserting the shim .
The service bulletin instructs them to remove the pedal assembly in order to insert the shim .
By removing the bottom of the gas pedal they have room to wedge that shim in there without the laborious process of removing and reinstalling it .
Also there is more risk that they can get grim in there then ( though in the tech is supposed to wipe the outside yet not use compressed air to minimize risk of getting dirt inside ) .Also if you have a Camry it is possible that you have a Denso pedal assembly that did not need the shim if I recall correctly .
Maybe there is bulletin that is different for those that I am not aware of.If I were you I would take your car to another Toyota service and have them look at it .
Then if they say that is unusual , they should contact Toyota in order to for Toyota to authorize the replacement of your gas pedal assembly .
They are supposed to measure pedal travel on a workbench , I really wonder why they chopped off the bottom of yours maybe it was very bad ?
If I am wrong then you will have had any concerns addressed.Also the floor mat is a new one with restraints , not that they lopped off chunks of your old one and held it down with something like zip ties , right ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The chopping off the bottom 4cm is a bad sign.
They are not supposed to do this last I heard.
It seems to me that they have taken a shortcut for inserting the shim.
The service bulletin instructs them to remove the pedal assembly in order to insert the shim.
By removing the bottom of the gas pedal they have room to wedge that shim in there without the laborious process of removing and reinstalling it.
Also there is more risk that they can get grim in there then (though in the tech is supposed to wipe the outside yet not use compressed air to minimize risk of getting dirt inside).Also if you have a Camry it is possible that you have a Denso pedal assembly that did not need the shim if I recall correctly.
Maybe there is bulletin that is different for those that I am not aware of.If I were you I would take your car to another Toyota service and have them look at it.
Then if they say that is unusual, they should contact Toyota in order to for Toyota to authorize the replacement of your gas pedal assembly.
They are supposed to measure pedal travel on a workbench, I really wonder why they chopped off the bottom of yours maybe it was very bad?
If I am wrong then you will have had any concerns addressed.Also the floor mat is a new one with restraints, not that they lopped off chunks of your old one and held it down with something like zip ties, right?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287936</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285990</id>
	<title>Apply the update</title>
	<author>Cassini2</author>
	<datestamp>1267204560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Many other manufacturers have already added a similar piece of code.  It really doesn't take to long to debug an interlock.  Your primary failure mode will be: if the brake pressed switch fails (ie: the tail lights are stuck on), then the car won't run.
</p><p>Every interlock has a strong tendency to fail into the safe state.  Conversely, omitting interlocks tends to result in fail-dangerous failures, which is what Toyota is experiencing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Many other manufacturers have already added a similar piece of code .
It really does n't take to long to debug an interlock .
Your primary failure mode will be : if the brake pressed switch fails ( ie : the tail lights are stuck on ) , then the car wo n't run .
Every interlock has a strong tendency to fail into the safe state .
Conversely , omitting interlocks tends to result in fail-dangerous failures , which is what Toyota is experiencing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Many other manufacturers have already added a similar piece of code.
It really doesn't take to long to debug an interlock.
Your primary failure mode will be: if the brake pressed switch fails (ie: the tail lights are stuck on), then the car won't run.
Every interlock has a strong tendency to fail into the safe state.
Conversely, omitting interlocks tends to result in fail-dangerous failures, which is what Toyota is experiencing.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286286</id>
	<title>Re:Get the Flash</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267205460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I thought this was common with all electronic throttles.  The VW and BMW closed the throttle if the brake was pressed.  I know BMW had electronic throttles on some cars back in 87 (750.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I thought this was common with all electronic throttles .
The VW and BMW closed the throttle if the brake was pressed .
I know BMW had electronic throttles on some cars back in 87 ( 750 .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I thought this was common with all electronic throttles.
The VW and BMW closed the throttle if the brake was pressed.
I know BMW had electronic throttles on some cars back in 87 (750.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285984</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286888</id>
	<title>Will the Update even fix the Problem?</title>
	<author>Agent0013</author>
	<datestamp>1267207320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I know someone who has a Lexus that started revving the engine while he was getting onto an expressway. He said the brake pedal was stuck up and would not even allow him to press it down. If the computer is pushing the pedal up (for some sort of feedback or something) will it even detect that you are trying to brake for the fix to work? They have some serious issues and the floor mats are not a part of the problem.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I know someone who has a Lexus that started revving the engine while he was getting onto an expressway .
He said the brake pedal was stuck up and would not even allow him to press it down .
If the computer is pushing the pedal up ( for some sort of feedback or something ) will it even detect that you are trying to brake for the fix to work ?
They have some serious issues and the floor mats are not a part of the problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I know someone who has a Lexus that started revving the engine while he was getting onto an expressway.
He said the brake pedal was stuck up and would not even allow him to press it down.
If the computer is pushing the pedal up (for some sort of feedback or something) will it even detect that you are trying to brake for the fix to work?
They have some serious issues and the floor mats are not a part of the problem.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31319016</id>
	<title>Re:Just like the Ford Pinto issue</title>
	<author>barzok</author>
	<datestamp>1267469700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And it has nothing to do with how Toyota initially tried to minimize, cover up and/or lie about the scope of the problems before coming out and finally admitting that something was wrong? That's what bothers me the most - not that it's happened, but the cover-up afterwards.</p><p>It's kind of like baseball &amp; PEDs earlier this decade. Players who came clean &amp; admitted to using PEDs right away were relatively unscathed. Those who denied using them or avoided the question completely, only to be found out later, were (and continue to be) vilified.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And it has nothing to do with how Toyota initially tried to minimize , cover up and/or lie about the scope of the problems before coming out and finally admitting that something was wrong ?
That 's what bothers me the most - not that it 's happened , but the cover-up afterwards.It 's kind of like baseball &amp; PEDs earlier this decade .
Players who came clean &amp; admitted to using PEDs right away were relatively unscathed .
Those who denied using them or avoided the question completely , only to be found out later , were ( and continue to be ) vilified .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And it has nothing to do with how Toyota initially tried to minimize, cover up and/or lie about the scope of the problems before coming out and finally admitting that something was wrong?
That's what bothers me the most - not that it's happened, but the cover-up afterwards.It's kind of like baseball &amp; PEDs earlier this decade.
Players who came clean &amp; admitted to using PEDs right away were relatively unscathed.
Those who denied using them or avoided the question completely, only to be found out later, were (and continue to be) vilified.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287428</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31296902</id>
	<title>say what?</title>
	<author>Hognoxious</author>
	<datestamp>1267288920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>My driving habits don't cause the floor mat to slide much, so I see the update as overkill.</p></div> </blockquote><p>You claim to be a software engineer, but you think a sliding mat can cause bugs?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>My driving habits do n't cause the floor mat to slide much , so I see the update as overkill .
You claim to be a software engineer , but you think a sliding mat can cause bugs ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My driving habits don't cause the floor mat to slide much, so I see the update as overkill.
You claim to be a software engineer, but you think a sliding mat can cause bugs?
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287524</id>
	<title>It's not the floormats!</title>
	<author>sjames</author>
	<datestamp>1267209540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Firstly, it's not the floormats. Even Toyota has backed away from that as an explanation. The current theory is that it's the accelerator pedal sticking, but that doesn't jibe well with all of the incident reports either. Given that, I wouldn't count on your driving habits or removing the floormats to solve the problem.</p><p>You should also consider that if you have a problem later and the update hasn't been done, guess what they'll blame?!</p><p>In general, the modification sounds like a very good idea. If for whatever reason your car decides to go full throttle against your wishes, I'm sure you'd like one extra chance to convince it otherwise.</p><p>As others have pointed out, you have already accepted 100 million lines of their code without knowing anything about their software practices.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Firstly , it 's not the floormats .
Even Toyota has backed away from that as an explanation .
The current theory is that it 's the accelerator pedal sticking , but that does n't jibe well with all of the incident reports either .
Given that , I would n't count on your driving habits or removing the floormats to solve the problem.You should also consider that if you have a problem later and the update has n't been done , guess what they 'll blame ?
! In general , the modification sounds like a very good idea .
If for whatever reason your car decides to go full throttle against your wishes , I 'm sure you 'd like one extra chance to convince it otherwise.As others have pointed out , you have already accepted 100 million lines of their code without knowing anything about their software practices .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Firstly, it's not the floormats.
Even Toyota has backed away from that as an explanation.
The current theory is that it's the accelerator pedal sticking, but that doesn't jibe well with all of the incident reports either.
Given that, I wouldn't count on your driving habits or removing the floormats to solve the problem.You should also consider that if you have a problem later and the update hasn't been done, guess what they'll blame?
!In general, the modification sounds like a very good idea.
If for whatever reason your car decides to go full throttle against your wishes, I'm sure you'd like one extra chance to convince it otherwise.As others have pointed out, you have already accepted 100 million lines of their code without knowing anything about their software practices.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31290442</id>
	<title>it an even-numbered service pack?</title>
	<author>stretch0611</author>
	<datestamp>1267177980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That depends is it an even-numbered service pack?</p><p>While it is true that a fix/service pack/upgrade can add new errors, *usually* they fix more than they add. In this case because they are trying to fix a Critical Error, taking it to fix a know potential fatal error even though it may introduce new errors is a good bet.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That depends is it an even-numbered service pack ? While it is true that a fix/service pack/upgrade can add new errors , * usually * they fix more than they add .
In this case because they are trying to fix a Critical Error , taking it to fix a know potential fatal error even though it may introduce new errors is a good bet .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That depends is it an even-numbered service pack?While it is true that a fix/service pack/upgrade can add new errors, *usually* they fix more than they add.
In this case because they are trying to fix a Critical Error, taking it to fix a know potential fatal error even though it may introduce new errors is a good bet.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31289892</id>
	<title>IANAL, but...</title>
	<author>Jawn98685</author>
	<datestamp>1267175400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It doesn't take a lawyer to realize that the potential liability incurred by willfully ignoring a recall that is tied to issues that have already caused multiple deaths is significant. Imagine hearing the lawyer representing the people who were rear-ended by your runaway Camry as he introduces "Exhibit-A. A document signed by the respondent, wherein he acknowledges that his vehicle has the potential for loss of throttle and braking control, and that said loss of control could result in the respondent or others being injured or seriously killed..."
<br>
Get your car fixed. If the update bricks your ride, it's Toyota's problem. If your ride kills people because you ignored a recall, it's your problem.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It does n't take a lawyer to realize that the potential liability incurred by willfully ignoring a recall that is tied to issues that have already caused multiple deaths is significant .
Imagine hearing the lawyer representing the people who were rear-ended by your runaway Camry as he introduces " Exhibit-A .
A document signed by the respondent , wherein he acknowledges that his vehicle has the potential for loss of throttle and braking control , and that said loss of control could result in the respondent or others being injured or seriously killed... " Get your car fixed .
If the update bricks your ride , it 's Toyota 's problem .
If your ride kills people because you ignored a recall , it 's your problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It doesn't take a lawyer to realize that the potential liability incurred by willfully ignoring a recall that is tied to issues that have already caused multiple deaths is significant.
Imagine hearing the lawyer representing the people who were rear-ended by your runaway Camry as he introduces "Exhibit-A.
A document signed by the respondent, wherein he acknowledges that his vehicle has the potential for loss of throttle and braking control, and that said loss of control could result in the respondent or others being injured or seriously killed..."

Get your car fixed.
If the update bricks your ride, it's Toyota's problem.
If your ride kills people because you ignored a recall, it's your problem.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286720</id>
	<title>Re:Jane, you ignorant slut...</title>
	<author>SashaMan</author>
	<datestamp>1267206840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>You pulled it out of your ass so you'd sound officious and get a post on<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/.</i></p><p>Officious - I do not think it means what you think it means.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You pulled it out of your ass so you 'd sound officious and get a post on /.Officious - I do not think it means what you think it means .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You pulled it out of your ass so you'd sound officious and get a post on /.Officious - I do not think it means what you think it means.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286082</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31289200</id>
	<title>Heh</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267215240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The OP is a moron.</p><p>"In the computer world, we're all taught to install firmware updates only if there is a real problem because a large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardware or cause other unforeseen consequences"</p><p>Large percentage?  Care to tell us how you came up with this?  Oh, wait, it's straight out of your ass.</p><p>Yes, you shouldn't fix what's not broken all of the time, but the advice this guy just said....makes him seem like he was just a failed-condom child.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The OP is a moron .
" In the computer world , we 're all taught to install firmware updates only if there is a real problem because a large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardware or cause other unforeseen consequences " Large percentage ?
Care to tell us how you came up with this ?
Oh , wait , it 's straight out of your ass.Yes , you should n't fix what 's not broken all of the time , but the advice this guy just said....makes him seem like he was just a failed-condom child .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The OP is a moron.
"In the computer world, we're all taught to install firmware updates only if there is a real problem because a large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardware or cause other unforeseen consequences"Large percentage?
Care to tell us how you came up with this?
Oh, wait, it's straight out of your ass.Yes, you shouldn't fix what's not broken all of the time, but the advice this guy just said....makes him seem like he was just a failed-condom child.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288616</id>
	<title>No more break torquing my Prius</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267213020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm not taking the upgrade....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not taking the upgrade... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not taking the upgrade....</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286418</id>
	<title>Re:Umm... yes</title>
	<author>Archangel Michael</author>
	<datestamp>1267205940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You want us to believe you leave your parents basement voluntarily?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You want us to believe you leave your parents basement voluntarily ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You want us to believe you leave your parents basement voluntarily?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285930</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31308934</id>
	<title>next time...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267352520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Buy a car that has a clutch.  Problems with unattended acceleration can be solved by pushing on the special pedal dedicated solely to disconnecting the engine from the drive wheels.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Buy a car that has a clutch .
Problems with unattended acceleration can be solved by pushing on the special pedal dedicated solely to disconnecting the engine from the drive wheels .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Buy a car that has a clutch.
Problems with unattended acceleration can be solved by pushing on the special pedal dedicated solely to disconnecting the engine from the drive wheels.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31301976</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>Peaquod</author>
	<datestamp>1267286520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>In that case, your only chance is the brake overriding the gas (a process which should have been true from the beginning anyway).</p></div><p>Or you can put the car into neutral... or cut the power entirely (yes, both these things work, even with push button ignition.  I tested both on a country road shortly after the initial floor mat recall).  In emergency situations, it's critical to keep your head together and recognize your options.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>In that case , your only chance is the brake overriding the gas ( a process which should have been true from the beginning anyway ) .Or you can put the car into neutral... or cut the power entirely ( yes , both these things work , even with push button ignition .
I tested both on a country road shortly after the initial floor mat recall ) .
In emergency situations , it 's critical to keep your head together and recognize your options .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In that case, your only chance is the brake overriding the gas (a process which should have been true from the beginning anyway).Or you can put the car into neutral... or cut the power entirely (yes, both these things work, even with push button ignition.
I tested both on a country road shortly after the initial floor mat recall).
In emergency situations, it's critical to keep your head together and recognize your options.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287676</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287194</id>
	<title>Short Answer...</title>
	<author>aDSF762</author>
	<datestamp>1267208340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yes.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286396</id>
	<title>something smells funny</title>
	<author>khallow</author>
	<datestamp>1267205820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>A "software developer" is concerned that a software update could mess up their car (a consequence which, as mentioned by smart Slashdotters here, Toyota is liable for). Have they ever updated their operating system on their computer? Probably so. Why did they do that given the risks of bricking the computer? There lies the answer to the question.</htmltext>
<tokenext>A " software developer " is concerned that a software update could mess up their car ( a consequence which , as mentioned by smart Slashdotters here , Toyota is liable for ) .
Have they ever updated their operating system on their computer ?
Probably so .
Why did they do that given the risks of bricking the computer ?
There lies the answer to the question .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A "software developer" is concerned that a software update could mess up their car (a consequence which, as mentioned by smart Slashdotters here, Toyota is liable for).
Have they ever updated their operating system on their computer?
Probably so.
Why did they do that given the risks of bricking the computer?
There lies the answer to the question.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286042</id>
	<title>Absolutely</title>
	<author>onyxruby</author>
	<datestamp>1267204740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>Think of this a few different ways. First from a liability standpoint, you are considering actively refusing a fix for a known bug that has killed people. If you ever sell your car and it can be proved you actively refused this you could be on the hook both civilly and criminally. Second from a liability standpoint, Toyota is now assuming liability for this, if they brick your car, they are liable for fixing it. Third, this is a known bug that has killed people, are you bloody nuts? This is not a software bug that results in a software crash, this is a software bug that results in a real world crash!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Think of this a few different ways .
First from a liability standpoint , you are considering actively refusing a fix for a known bug that has killed people .
If you ever sell your car and it can be proved you actively refused this you could be on the hook both civilly and criminally .
Second from a liability standpoint , Toyota is now assuming liability for this , if they brick your car , they are liable for fixing it .
Third , this is a known bug that has killed people , are you bloody nuts ?
This is not a software bug that results in a software crash , this is a software bug that results in a real world crash !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Think of this a few different ways.
First from a liability standpoint, you are considering actively refusing a fix for a known bug that has killed people.
If you ever sell your car and it can be proved you actively refused this you could be on the hook both civilly and criminally.
Second from a liability standpoint, Toyota is now assuming liability for this, if they brick your car, they are liable for fixing it.
Third, this is a known bug that has killed people, are you bloody nuts?
This is not a software bug that results in a software crash, this is a software bug that results in a real world crash!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286238</id>
	<title>100 million? More like 1 million</title>
	<author>NoSleepDemon</author>
	<datestamp>1267205340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Now I know you just quoted an article, where it is stated that modern cars have around 100 million lines of code, but did you stop to think if this was actually true? Seriously, think about it. 100 million. And you're a software engineer, for real?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Now I know you just quoted an article , where it is stated that modern cars have around 100 million lines of code , but did you stop to think if this was actually true ?
Seriously , think about it .
100 million .
And you 're a software engineer , for real ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Now I know you just quoted an article, where it is stated that modern cars have around 100 million lines of code, but did you stop to think if this was actually true?
Seriously, think about it.
100 million.
And you're a software engineer, for real?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286508</id>
	<title>Re:I will say this</title>
	<author>Quiet\_Desperation</author>
	<datestamp>1267206180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Can you really open source the control system for specific devices?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Can you really open source the control system for specific devices ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Can you really open source the control system for specific devices?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286124</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31300816</id>
	<title>Take it!</title>
	<author>scholl\_r</author>
	<datestamp>1267276740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Of course it is not possible to modify any code without the possibility of introducing bugs, but they are probably putting in a relatively small amount of code which sets a flag when the brake is pushed, read by the throttle code to disable the throttle.  If you don't take it, then at least follow the advice of the current pundits on this subject, and DON'T cut the engine in the case of a stuck throttle; rather shift into neutral.  The engine software has speed limiting, so it won't self-destruct, and the running engine permits the power assist stuff to continue to work so you can brake and steer the car.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Of course it is not possible to modify any code without the possibility of introducing bugs , but they are probably putting in a relatively small amount of code which sets a flag when the brake is pushed , read by the throttle code to disable the throttle .
If you do n't take it , then at least follow the advice of the current pundits on this subject , and DO N'T cut the engine in the case of a stuck throttle ; rather shift into neutral .
The engine software has speed limiting , so it wo n't self-destruct , and the running engine permits the power assist stuff to continue to work so you can brake and steer the car .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Of course it is not possible to modify any code without the possibility of introducing bugs, but they are probably putting in a relatively small amount of code which sets a flag when the brake is pushed, read by the throttle code to disable the throttle.
If you don't take it, then at least follow the advice of the current pundits on this subject, and DON'T cut the engine in the case of a stuck throttle; rather shift into neutral.
The engine software has speed limiting, so it won't self-destruct, and the running engine permits the power assist stuff to continue to work so you can brake and steer the car.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287638</id>
	<title>Re:Placebo Fixes</title>
	<author>natehoy</author>
	<datestamp>1267209840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No matter what, PR, bullshit fix, whatever you want to call it, this firmware fix is a good idea.  Brakes should be an absolute-priority command to the car that the user is requesting it slow down, regardless of any other input into the vehicle control system.  Idling the engine is just a logical idea.  It doesn't matter if the fix is not necessary to stop the current problem, or what the root cause of the problem might be.</p><p>Even if we accept that the various incidents were all user error, and absolve Toyota of any design flaws, the fact remains that this fix is a good idea.  It might even have prevented some of the incidents, because several people who experienced them reported that the brakes and the engine were fighting each other.  Average car brakes cannot possibly fight an engine at full throttle, they'll rapidly overheat and burn out trying.  This fix would ensure that the brakes would win.</p><p>And,of course, regardless of the root cause, the solution to ANY "out of control acceleration problem" is to stop the acceleration, which is precisely what this fix is designed to do.  If you hit the brakes, the car engine returns to idle and stops putting acceleration into the system.</p><p>Sometimes, you release a patch that fixes the symptom until you can isolate the root cause.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No matter what , PR , bullshit fix , whatever you want to call it , this firmware fix is a good idea .
Brakes should be an absolute-priority command to the car that the user is requesting it slow down , regardless of any other input into the vehicle control system .
Idling the engine is just a logical idea .
It does n't matter if the fix is not necessary to stop the current problem , or what the root cause of the problem might be.Even if we accept that the various incidents were all user error , and absolve Toyota of any design flaws , the fact remains that this fix is a good idea .
It might even have prevented some of the incidents , because several people who experienced them reported that the brakes and the engine were fighting each other .
Average car brakes can not possibly fight an engine at full throttle , they 'll rapidly overheat and burn out trying .
This fix would ensure that the brakes would win.And,of course , regardless of the root cause , the solution to ANY " out of control acceleration problem " is to stop the acceleration , which is precisely what this fix is designed to do .
If you hit the brakes , the car engine returns to idle and stops putting acceleration into the system.Sometimes , you release a patch that fixes the symptom until you can isolate the root cause .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No matter what, PR, bullshit fix, whatever you want to call it, this firmware fix is a good idea.
Brakes should be an absolute-priority command to the car that the user is requesting it slow down, regardless of any other input into the vehicle control system.
Idling the engine is just a logical idea.
It doesn't matter if the fix is not necessary to stop the current problem, or what the root cause of the problem might be.Even if we accept that the various incidents were all user error, and absolve Toyota of any design flaws, the fact remains that this fix is a good idea.
It might even have prevented some of the incidents, because several people who experienced them reported that the brakes and the engine were fighting each other.
Average car brakes cannot possibly fight an engine at full throttle, they'll rapidly overheat and burn out trying.
This fix would ensure that the brakes would win.And,of course, regardless of the root cause, the solution to ANY "out of control acceleration problem" is to stop the acceleration, which is precisely what this fix is designed to do.
If you hit the brakes, the car engine returns to idle and stops putting acceleration into the system.Sometimes, you release a patch that fixes the symptom until you can isolate the root cause.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286312</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31291762</id>
	<title>A question</title>
	<author>MikeURL</author>
	<datestamp>1267185060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Is it true that modern cars won't allow you to shift into neutral if the throttle is wide open?  Because of all this stuff I've been testing what i can and can't do in my 99 Camry.  But I would prefer not to test throwing it into neutral under full acceleration.  but I might do it because i do think it is important to know what all your options are out there.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Is it true that modern cars wo n't allow you to shift into neutral if the throttle is wide open ?
Because of all this stuff I 've been testing what i can and ca n't do in my 99 Camry .
But I would prefer not to test throwing it into neutral under full acceleration .
but I might do it because i do think it is important to know what all your options are out there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is it true that modern cars won't allow you to shift into neutral if the throttle is wide open?
Because of all this stuff I've been testing what i can and can't do in my 99 Camry.
But I would prefer not to test throwing it into neutral under full acceleration.
but I might do it because i do think it is important to know what all your options are out there.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287352</id>
	<title>Re:Both pedals?</title>
	<author>natehoy</author>
	<datestamp>1267208880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Or change in ambient temperature, and suddenly your idle setting is too low?</p></div><p>Yeah, but that was back in my car built in 1974 that had a carburetor and a crappy choke system.  None of the cars I've owned since have had a problem with temperature changes, and if they did the proper response is to get the idle/mix system fixed up, not play two-foot.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Or change in ambient temperature , and suddenly your idle setting is too low ? Yeah , but that was back in my car built in 1974 that had a carburetor and a crappy choke system .
None of the cars I 've owned since have had a problem with temperature changes , and if they did the proper response is to get the idle/mix system fixed up , not play two-foot .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or change in ambient temperature, and suddenly your idle setting is too low?Yeah, but that was back in my car built in 1974 that had a carburetor and a crappy choke system.
None of the cars I've owned since have had a problem with temperature changes, and if they did the proper response is to get the idle/mix system fixed up, not play two-foot.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286292</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286880</id>
	<title>Look at this from a liability standpoint</title>
	<author>Locke2005</author>
	<datestamp>1267207320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you don't get the update and hit someone, you can always blame the software and get off scogt free. However, if you get the update and hit someone, you've only yourself to blame! Would you rather have them suing you, or big-pockets Toyota when you run over someone and kill them?</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you do n't get the update and hit someone , you can always blame the software and get off scogt free .
However , if you get the update and hit someone , you 've only yourself to blame !
Would you rather have them suing you , or big-pockets Toyota when you run over someone and kill them ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you don't get the update and hit someone, you can always blame the software and get off scogt free.
However, if you get the update and hit someone, you've only yourself to blame!
Would you rather have them suing you, or big-pockets Toyota when you run over someone and kill them?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31290020</id>
	<title>You're not taking a 100 million line update</title>
	<author>CaptainTux</author>
	<datestamp>1267176180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Of course you should take the update. They're not pushing out a 100 million line update after three months. They're pushing out an update that maybe changed a couple of thousands to maybe a couple of hundred thousand lines of code. Totally doable and testable within a 3 month period.

Obviously, it's your choice to take or not take the update but are you willing to put yourself and your family in harms way based on an unlikely 'what if' software bug when you have a KNOWN software bug currently in your system?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Of course you should take the update .
They 're not pushing out a 100 million line update after three months .
They 're pushing out an update that maybe changed a couple of thousands to maybe a couple of hundred thousand lines of code .
Totally doable and testable within a 3 month period .
Obviously , it 's your choice to take or not take the update but are you willing to put yourself and your family in harms way based on an unlikely 'what if ' software bug when you have a KNOWN software bug currently in your system ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Of course you should take the update.
They're not pushing out a 100 million line update after three months.
They're pushing out an update that maybe changed a couple of thousands to maybe a couple of hundred thousand lines of code.
Totally doable and testable within a 3 month period.
Obviously, it's your choice to take or not take the update but are you willing to put yourself and your family in harms way based on an unlikely 'what if' software bug when you have a KNOWN software bug currently in your system?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31306178</id>
	<title>Looks like brake design is flawed by design</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267376040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My biggest concern about this whole issue is not the jammed gas pedal. It's the fact that the gas pedal can disable the brakes.</p><p>Brakes are a safety device and should be controlled by dedicated hardware. The inputs to the system should be the brake pedal and possibly some wheel rotation sensors and/or acceleration sensors. It should then calculate control signals to the brake hardware using some electronics. If the power dies, then the brakes should still function. It's no good to lose brakes due to a broken fuse. Maybe ABS and stuff wouldn't work, but the basic concept about applying brakes should.</p><p>The gas pedal is not mentioned in that line and that's because the brakes shouldn't care for the gas pedal, just like it shouldn't care if you turned on your lights or anything. Sure the brakes can give outputs to other parts of the car, but it's a one way communication.</p><p>The engine controller should then do something like:<br>if (braking)<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; set engine to idle<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; possibly automatic transmission signals<br>else<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; apply power based on readings from gas pedal</p><p>The railroads used a design like this for 70+ years which means by the time the first car gained any electronics then this design concept had been well tested and avoided quite a number of accidents. Why the car industry decided not to think of brakes as an important and uninterruptable safety device will remain a mystery, but failure to properly isolate brakes from the rest of the car shows that the design is no good at preventing stupid bugs like this one.</p><p>Another bug I heard of, which were due to failure to keep electronics separate was a car that when it drove uphill and the driver turned the steeringwheel to the right, then the engine turned off. This was the engine controller, which read garbage from the headlights and  replacing the headlights fixed the problem.</p><p>I'm concerned with the electronic design of modern cars but it goes for all brands. I'm also concerned that it looks like the law allows selling a car where pressing both pedals at the same time seems like it could increase speed. I read that it could do that, but it was ok just as long as it would start to brake if you let go of the gas pedal. Imagine some kid running across the road and the driver floors both pedals by mistake. Sounds bad to me that it could be allowed to ignore the brake pedal in such a case.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My biggest concern about this whole issue is not the jammed gas pedal .
It 's the fact that the gas pedal can disable the brakes.Brakes are a safety device and should be controlled by dedicated hardware .
The inputs to the system should be the brake pedal and possibly some wheel rotation sensors and/or acceleration sensors .
It should then calculate control signals to the brake hardware using some electronics .
If the power dies , then the brakes should still function .
It 's no good to lose brakes due to a broken fuse .
Maybe ABS and stuff would n't work , but the basic concept about applying brakes should.The gas pedal is not mentioned in that line and that 's because the brakes should n't care for the gas pedal , just like it should n't care if you turned on your lights or anything .
Sure the brakes can give outputs to other parts of the car , but it 's a one way communication.The engine controller should then do something like : if ( braking )     set engine to idle     possibly automatic transmission signalselse     apply power based on readings from gas pedalThe railroads used a design like this for 70 + years which means by the time the first car gained any electronics then this design concept had been well tested and avoided quite a number of accidents .
Why the car industry decided not to think of brakes as an important and uninterruptable safety device will remain a mystery , but failure to properly isolate brakes from the rest of the car shows that the design is no good at preventing stupid bugs like this one.Another bug I heard of , which were due to failure to keep electronics separate was a car that when it drove uphill and the driver turned the steeringwheel to the right , then the engine turned off .
This was the engine controller , which read garbage from the headlights and replacing the headlights fixed the problem.I 'm concerned with the electronic design of modern cars but it goes for all brands .
I 'm also concerned that it looks like the law allows selling a car where pressing both pedals at the same time seems like it could increase speed .
I read that it could do that , but it was ok just as long as it would start to brake if you let go of the gas pedal .
Imagine some kid running across the road and the driver floors both pedals by mistake .
Sounds bad to me that it could be allowed to ignore the brake pedal in such a case .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My biggest concern about this whole issue is not the jammed gas pedal.
It's the fact that the gas pedal can disable the brakes.Brakes are a safety device and should be controlled by dedicated hardware.
The inputs to the system should be the brake pedal and possibly some wheel rotation sensors and/or acceleration sensors.
It should then calculate control signals to the brake hardware using some electronics.
If the power dies, then the brakes should still function.
It's no good to lose brakes due to a broken fuse.
Maybe ABS and stuff wouldn't work, but the basic concept about applying brakes should.The gas pedal is not mentioned in that line and that's because the brakes shouldn't care for the gas pedal, just like it shouldn't care if you turned on your lights or anything.
Sure the brakes can give outputs to other parts of the car, but it's a one way communication.The engine controller should then do something like:if (braking)
    set engine to idle
    possibly automatic transmission signalselse
    apply power based on readings from gas pedalThe railroads used a design like this for 70+ years which means by the time the first car gained any electronics then this design concept had been well tested and avoided quite a number of accidents.
Why the car industry decided not to think of brakes as an important and uninterruptable safety device will remain a mystery, but failure to properly isolate brakes from the rest of the car shows that the design is no good at preventing stupid bugs like this one.Another bug I heard of, which were due to failure to keep electronics separate was a car that when it drove uphill and the driver turned the steeringwheel to the right, then the engine turned off.
This was the engine controller, which read garbage from the headlights and  replacing the headlights fixed the problem.I'm concerned with the electronic design of modern cars but it goes for all brands.
I'm also concerned that it looks like the law allows selling a car where pressing both pedals at the same time seems like it could increase speed.
I read that it could do that, but it was ok just as long as it would start to brake if you let go of the gas pedal.
Imagine some kid running across the road and the driver floors both pedals by mistake.
Sounds bad to me that it could be allowed to ignore the brake pedal in such a case.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287318</id>
	<title>Floormat not the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267208760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you've been following the story at all, you should already know that the floor mat isn't even a part of the problem, though I'm not so sure that little aluminum wedge is even a part of the fix for the real problem.</p><p>Not accepting the update could not only get you in trouble with your insurance company in the event of an accident, but could conceivably get you put in jail if you kill someone in the process and your 'negligence in performing required repairs' became known.</p><p>Don't just think about the potential problems of accepting this update, think also about the potential problems of ignoring it. Most times an update is meant to fix existing problems; rarely does it go so far as to introduce new ones. Based on other reports, there's almost 10 man-years of effort put into this 3-calendar-month update.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you 've been following the story at all , you should already know that the floor mat is n't even a part of the problem , though I 'm not so sure that little aluminum wedge is even a part of the fix for the real problem.Not accepting the update could not only get you in trouble with your insurance company in the event of an accident , but could conceivably get you put in jail if you kill someone in the process and your 'negligence in performing required repairs ' became known.Do n't just think about the potential problems of accepting this update , think also about the potential problems of ignoring it .
Most times an update is meant to fix existing problems ; rarely does it go so far as to introduce new ones .
Based on other reports , there 's almost 10 man-years of effort put into this 3-calendar-month update .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you've been following the story at all, you should already know that the floor mat isn't even a part of the problem, though I'm not so sure that little aluminum wedge is even a part of the fix for the real problem.Not accepting the update could not only get you in trouble with your insurance company in the event of an accident, but could conceivably get you put in jail if you kill someone in the process and your 'negligence in performing required repairs' became known.Don't just think about the potential problems of accepting this update, think also about the potential problems of ignoring it.
Most times an update is meant to fix existing problems; rarely does it go so far as to introduce new ones.
Based on other reports, there's almost 10 man-years of effort put into this 3-calendar-month update.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287304</id>
	<title>New Fangled</title>
	<author>JustOK</author>
	<datestamp>1267208700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I really don't mind these new fangled cars, but, geez, STAY OFF MY LAWN, patio, living room etc</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I really do n't mind these new fangled cars , but , geez , STAY OFF MY LAWN , patio , living room etc</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I really don't mind these new fangled cars, but, geez, STAY OFF MY LAWN, patio, living room etc</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288700</id>
	<title>Brake Stand/Burn Outs?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267213380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm refusing to get this update for my Toyota.. How will I do brake stands and burn outs If the engine returns to idle every time I step on the brake??</p><p>No Thanks!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm refusing to get this update for my Toyota.. How will I do brake stands and burn outs If the engine returns to idle every time I step on the brake ?
? No Thanks !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm refusing to get this update for my Toyota.. How will I do brake stands and burn outs If the engine returns to idle every time I step on the brake?
?No Thanks!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287222</id>
	<title>Cars and Computers</title>
	<author>CFBMoo1</author>
	<datestamp>1267208400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you really are afraid of computers running cars then it's time to sell the car and buy an older car that has no computer in it. At least then you won't have to worry about your car, just everyone else.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you really are afraid of computers running cars then it 's time to sell the car and buy an older car that has no computer in it .
At least then you wo n't have to worry about your car , just everyone else .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you really are afraid of computers running cars then it's time to sell the car and buy an older car that has no computer in it.
At least then you won't have to worry about your car, just everyone else.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31295746</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>Ckwop</author>
	<datestamp>1267267860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Which is why I don't like push-button ignition. If my car ever goes into hyperdrive because of a stuck throttle, I take comfort in knowing I still have a kill switch, and I grew up driving tractors and cars without power steering or power-assist braking, so I can cope.</p></div>
</blockquote><p>
If you gas pedal ever got stuck down, the solution is <i>not</i> to turn of the engine. This can cause all sorts of additional problems.
</p><p>
You put the car in to neutral. This disconnects the engine from the transmission allowing you to stop safely. I believe even automatic cars have a neutral gear, so this technique will work for those cars too.
</p><p>
This technique should be taught as part of learning to drive, whereever you live. It takes ten seconds to explain and could save quite a few lives.
</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Which is why I do n't like push-button ignition .
If my car ever goes into hyperdrive because of a stuck throttle , I take comfort in knowing I still have a kill switch , and I grew up driving tractors and cars without power steering or power-assist braking , so I can cope .
If you gas pedal ever got stuck down , the solution is not to turn of the engine .
This can cause all sorts of additional problems .
You put the car in to neutral .
This disconnects the engine from the transmission allowing you to stop safely .
I believe even automatic cars have a neutral gear , so this technique will work for those cars too .
This technique should be taught as part of learning to drive , whereever you live .
It takes ten seconds to explain and could save quite a few lives .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Which is why I don't like push-button ignition.
If my car ever goes into hyperdrive because of a stuck throttle, I take comfort in knowing I still have a kill switch, and I grew up driving tractors and cars without power steering or power-assist braking, so I can cope.
If you gas pedal ever got stuck down, the solution is not to turn of the engine.
This can cause all sorts of additional problems.
You put the car in to neutral.
This disconnects the engine from the transmission allowing you to stop safely.
I believe even automatic cars have a neutral gear, so this technique will work for those cars too.
This technique should be taught as part of learning to drive, whereever you live.
It takes ten seconds to explain and could save quite a few lives.

	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288360</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288786</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>frosty\_tsm</author>
	<datestamp>1267213740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>In that case, your only chance is the brake overriding the gas (a process which should have been true from the beginning anyway).</p></div><p>I know these aren't the most valid reasons why a Camry shouldn't necessarily have this, but I'll list them:
<br> <br>
1)  Many drivers learned to drive with both feet and sometimes ride on the brakes.  Sure it's bad, but what would they think if their throttle stops randomly as they are going along?  And then the mechanic says nothing is wrong?  Even if they figure out the cause, telling them "you're driving wrong" won't go over well.<br>
2)  Very not applicable to normal Camry usage, but when racing a FWD car there is a cornering trick where you use the brake and gas at the same time.  The brake puts more weight on the front wheels while the gas keeps the front wheels turning.  The net result is the car will under-steer less while going through the turn faster.  This would be more relevant on a Civic or Corolla; not a Camry.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>In that case , your only chance is the brake overriding the gas ( a process which should have been true from the beginning anyway ) .I know these are n't the most valid reasons why a Camry should n't necessarily have this , but I 'll list them : 1 ) Many drivers learned to drive with both feet and sometimes ride on the brakes .
Sure it 's bad , but what would they think if their throttle stops randomly as they are going along ?
And then the mechanic says nothing is wrong ?
Even if they figure out the cause , telling them " you 're driving wrong " wo n't go over well .
2 ) Very not applicable to normal Camry usage , but when racing a FWD car there is a cornering trick where you use the brake and gas at the same time .
The brake puts more weight on the front wheels while the gas keeps the front wheels turning .
The net result is the car will under-steer less while going through the turn faster .
This would be more relevant on a Civic or Corolla ; not a Camry .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In that case, your only chance is the brake overriding the gas (a process which should have been true from the beginning anyway).I know these aren't the most valid reasons why a Camry shouldn't necessarily have this, but I'll list them:
 
1)  Many drivers learned to drive with both feet and sometimes ride on the brakes.
Sure it's bad, but what would they think if their throttle stops randomly as they are going along?
And then the mechanic says nothing is wrong?
Even if they figure out the cause, telling them "you're driving wrong" won't go over well.
2)  Very not applicable to normal Camry usage, but when racing a FWD car there is a cornering trick where you use the brake and gas at the same time.
The brake puts more weight on the front wheels while the gas keeps the front wheels turning.
The net result is the car will under-steer less while going through the turn faster.
This would be more relevant on a Civic or Corolla; not a Camry.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287676</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286570</id>
	<title>I'm an attorney...</title>
	<author>wisebabo</author>
	<datestamp>1267206360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>... and if you sign this document I'll be happy to take your case in the unfortunate event of your demise due to a poorly implemented software upgrade!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>... and if you sign this document I 'll be happy to take your case in the unfortunate event of your demise due to a poorly implemented software upgrade !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... and if you sign this document I'll be happy to take your case in the unfortunate event of your demise due to a poorly implemented software upgrade!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287246</id>
	<title>Re:Seriously?</title>
	<author>rickb928</author>
	<datestamp>1267208460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Apparently driving habits are not the cause, at least not in a Lexus.  You heard or read any of the testimony from the woman that stated she put the transmission lever in reverse and it didn't stop the car?  REVERSE?  Obviously the transmission didn't answer the control input, it she would have had to sweep if up off the highway, which would be better than continuing to careen down the road out of control.</p><p>You want the update.  Sounds like it can't be much worse the the prvious release.</p><p>ps  - Not turning the engine off, trans to neutral, etc when the brakes are at max effort and the wheels are not slowing down seems like a massive fail.  Massive.  Fail.  Akio Toyoda should be firing a lot of executives in the next few months, and then considering his next move.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Apparently driving habits are not the cause , at least not in a Lexus .
You heard or read any of the testimony from the woman that stated she put the transmission lever in reverse and it did n't stop the car ?
REVERSE ? Obviously the transmission did n't answer the control input , it she would have had to sweep if up off the highway , which would be better than continuing to careen down the road out of control.You want the update .
Sounds like it ca n't be much worse the the prvious release.ps - Not turning the engine off , trans to neutral , etc when the brakes are at max effort and the wheels are not slowing down seems like a massive fail .
Massive. Fail .
Akio Toyoda should be firing a lot of executives in the next few months , and then considering his next move .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Apparently driving habits are not the cause, at least not in a Lexus.
You heard or read any of the testimony from the woman that stated she put the transmission lever in reverse and it didn't stop the car?
REVERSE?  Obviously the transmission didn't answer the control input, it she would have had to sweep if up off the highway, which would be better than continuing to careen down the road out of control.You want the update.
Sounds like it can't be much worse the the prvious release.ps  - Not turning the engine off, trans to neutral, etc when the brakes are at max effort and the wheels are not slowing down seems like a massive fail.
Massive.  Fail.
Akio Toyoda should be firing a lot of executives in the next few months, and then considering his next move.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286036</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31289498</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267216620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You've obviously never done a brake stand... Brakes *never* override throttle, not just for entertainment (smokey tires), but for a number of reasons.  First and foremost, what happens if a faulty brake switch causes the throttle input to be ignored?  Specifically, the proverbial 'car stuck on the railroad tracks' scenario.  Nice thought, but you haven't looked at this problem like an engineer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 've obviously never done a brake stand... Brakes * never * override throttle , not just for entertainment ( smokey tires ) , but for a number of reasons .
First and foremost , what happens if a faulty brake switch causes the throttle input to be ignored ?
Specifically , the proverbial 'car stuck on the railroad tracks ' scenario .
Nice thought , but you have n't looked at this problem like an engineer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You've obviously never done a brake stand... Brakes *never* override throttle, not just for entertainment (smokey tires), but for a number of reasons.
First and foremost, what happens if a faulty brake switch causes the throttle input to be ignored?
Specifically, the proverbial 'car stuck on the railroad tracks' scenario.
Nice thought, but you haven't looked at this problem like an engineer.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287676</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286686</id>
	<title>Standard testing procedure</title>
	<author>johnlcallaway</author>
	<datestamp>1267206780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>First, buy a second car.  Install the update to make sure it works. Be sure to test all components to make sure there are no unintneded impacts.

Include several parallel tests also. Maybe even some regular parking tests.

Once all tests are completed, schedule the install during non-prime hours and have a backout plan.</htmltext>
<tokenext>First , buy a second car .
Install the update to make sure it works .
Be sure to test all components to make sure there are no unintneded impacts .
Include several parallel tests also .
Maybe even some regular parking tests .
Once all tests are completed , schedule the install during non-prime hours and have a backout plan .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First, buy a second car.
Install the update to make sure it works.
Be sure to test all components to make sure there are no unintneded impacts.
Include several parallel tests also.
Maybe even some regular parking tests.
Once all tests are completed, schedule the install during non-prime hours and have a backout plan.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286594</id>
	<title>Re:Take the subway - or campaign for one to exist.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267206420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Roads and parking space don't cause urban sprawl - they are an EFFECT of urban sprawl.</p><p>Urban sprawl is caused by regulations requiring overtime pay - since employers don't want to pay 1.5x to 2x for overtime, most employees can't earn more by working longer hours.  So they use their time communiting instead, which enables them to afford a bigger house in the suburbs than they could in the city.</p><p>If there were no wage-and-hour regulations, there would be no urban sprawl.</p><p>--Dave</p><p>http//mugwumpery.com<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Roads and parking space do n't cause urban sprawl - they are an EFFECT of urban sprawl.Urban sprawl is caused by regulations requiring overtime pay - since employers do n't want to pay 1.5x to 2x for overtime , most employees ca n't earn more by working longer hours .
So they use their time communiting instead , which enables them to afford a bigger house in the suburbs than they could in the city.If there were no wage-and-hour regulations , there would be no urban sprawl.--Davehttp//mugwumpery.com    </tokentext>
<sentencetext>Roads and parking space don't cause urban sprawl - they are an EFFECT of urban sprawl.Urban sprawl is caused by regulations requiring overtime pay - since employers don't want to pay 1.5x to 2x for overtime, most employees can't earn more by working longer hours.
So they use their time communiting instead, which enables them to afford a bigger house in the suburbs than they could in the city.If there were no wage-and-hour regulations, there would be no urban sprawl.--Davehttp//mugwumpery.com
   </sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286106</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31291110</id>
	<title>Re:yes</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267181280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Cheapest karma ever</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Cheapest karma ever</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Cheapest karma ever</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285926</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286240</id>
	<title>Re:Get the Flash</title>
	<author>mdarksbane</author>
	<datestamp>1267205340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You'd be surprised how many camrys I see at auto-cross. I know I'd be mad as hell at any car that decided to cut my engine because I hit the brakes.</p><p>Of course, if the OP were into cars or racing he probably wouldn't be asking the question here.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 'd be surprised how many camrys I see at auto-cross .
I know I 'd be mad as hell at any car that decided to cut my engine because I hit the brakes.Of course , if the OP were into cars or racing he probably would n't be asking the question here .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You'd be surprised how many camrys I see at auto-cross.
I know I'd be mad as hell at any car that decided to cut my engine because I hit the brakes.Of course, if the OP were into cars or racing he probably wouldn't be asking the question here.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285984</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285926</id>
	<title>yes</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267204380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>yes</htmltext>
<tokenext>yes</tokentext>
<sentencetext>yes</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31324894</id>
	<title>Re:Take the update. I got it for my 2009 Camry.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267451520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>

Probably the most useful comment here..</htmltext>
<tokenext>Probably the most useful comment here. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>

Probably the most useful comment here..</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287936</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286014</id>
	<title>Fully informed?</title>
	<author>Coreigh</author>
	<datestamp>1267204620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I thought they determined that this was about more than shifting floor mats; that there is a legitimate problem with the software. You could experience this problem WITHOUT floormats in your car.</p><p>I don't drive a Toyota and if I did I could not afford one new enough to have this problem anyway.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I thought they determined that this was about more than shifting floor mats ; that there is a legitimate problem with the software .
You could experience this problem WITHOUT floormats in your car.I do n't drive a Toyota and if I did I could not afford one new enough to have this problem anyway .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I thought they determined that this was about more than shifting floor mats; that there is a legitimate problem with the software.
You could experience this problem WITHOUT floormats in your car.I don't drive a Toyota and if I did I could not afford one new enough to have this problem anyway.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288170</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>TheQuantumShift</author>
	<datestamp>1267211520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think his question isn't so much "Should I risk bricking my car?", rather it's "Should I risk slamming into brick wall when the patch turns out to have an even bigger bug?"</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think his question is n't so much " Should I risk bricking my car ?
" , rather it 's " Should I risk slamming into brick wall when the patch turns out to have an even bigger bug ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think his question isn't so much "Should I risk bricking my car?
", rather it's "Should I risk slamming into brick wall when the patch turns out to have an even bigger bug?
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286652</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31324722</id>
	<title>Re:1st bug found</title>
	<author>conufsed</author>
	<datestamp>1267450320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>When someone is tailgating me I slow down. No brakes, just foot off the accelerator.

Because, firstly, I'm an arsehole, and secondly its the only remaining control I've got to make the situation safe again by giving myself enough space behind me for the speed I'm doing. Of course those few mindless idiots who realise what I'm doing and back off, I'll return to my original speed.

Generally they had the shits with me in the first place for doing such horrible things as following the speed limit, which I do as I pretty much have to the way speed limits are enforced here in<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.au if you actually get caught</htmltext>
<tokenext>When someone is tailgating me I slow down .
No brakes , just foot off the accelerator .
Because , firstly , I 'm an arsehole , and secondly its the only remaining control I 've got to make the situation safe again by giving myself enough space behind me for the speed I 'm doing .
Of course those few mindless idiots who realise what I 'm doing and back off , I 'll return to my original speed .
Generally they had the shits with me in the first place for doing such horrible things as following the speed limit , which I do as I pretty much have to the way speed limits are enforced here in .au if you actually get caught</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When someone is tailgating me I slow down.
No brakes, just foot off the accelerator.
Because, firstly, I'm an arsehole, and secondly its the only remaining control I've got to make the situation safe again by giving myself enough space behind me for the speed I'm doing.
Of course those few mindless idiots who realise what I'm doing and back off, I'll return to my original speed.
Generally they had the shits with me in the first place for doing such horrible things as following the speed limit, which I do as I pretty much have to the way speed limits are enforced here in .au if you actually get caught</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286778</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31308768</id>
	<title>Re:I've always wondered how starships do it ..</title>
	<author>clone53421</author>
	<datestamp>1267351320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don&rsquo;t really have much knowledge of the Trek universe, but in the Star Wars universe the hyperspace course was plotted beforehand by a computer. Certain calculation shortcuts could be taken, but your course would naturally be more imprecise... while your destination would be the one you programmed in, the path to get there might put you directly through a large gravitational mass, which of course would be disastrous.</p><p>Luckily, space is mostly empty, so certain shortcuts... and courses plotted through unexplored areas... were relatively unlikely to end badly.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I don    t really have much knowledge of the Trek universe , but in the Star Wars universe the hyperspace course was plotted beforehand by a computer .
Certain calculation shortcuts could be taken , but your course would naturally be more imprecise... while your destination would be the one you programmed in , the path to get there might put you directly through a large gravitational mass , which of course would be disastrous.Luckily , space is mostly empty , so certain shortcuts... and courses plotted through unexplored areas... were relatively unlikely to end badly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don’t really have much knowledge of the Trek universe, but in the Star Wars universe the hyperspace course was plotted beforehand by a computer.
Certain calculation shortcuts could be taken, but your course would naturally be more imprecise... while your destination would be the one you programmed in, the path to get there might put you directly through a large gravitational mass, which of course would be disastrous.Luckily, space is mostly empty, so certain shortcuts... and courses plotted through unexplored areas... were relatively unlikely to end badly.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31304168</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287002</id>
	<title>Flawed Fix</title>
	<author>Temujin\_12</author>
	<datestamp>1267207680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>would cut power to the engine if both pedals were pressed</p></div><p>So anyone who starts from a stop on a steep incline by slowly depressing the brake while simultaneously pressing the gas to avoid rolling back into the vehicle behind them will now stall their vehicle?</p><p>The accidents that have occurred as a result of this are tragic. But adding quirky behavior as a stop-gap measure seems ridiculous and sets a bad precedent. Is there anything out there to make sure vehicle behavior is reasonably consistent across different vehicles (or even vehicle firmware versions)? Or are we going to have to be aware of all the different firmware ins and outs between different models and firmware versions.</p><p>I've been especially surprised at the fact that so many people seem to think that sudden acceleration is unstoppable. If you're driving a vehicle that suddenly accelerates and you cannot prevent the acceleration PUT THE VEHICLE IN NEUTRAL OR DOWNSHIFT (and yes you can downshift with automatics)! How people can get their driver's license while thinking the only way to slow/stop a vehicle is to press the brake is beyond me. I know panic can set in and can make reacting to unexpected dangerous situations difficult, but isn't that why you had a learner's permit first? My father took me to an empty lot and had me practice reacting to different situations that you can encounter which can be dangerous if you panic (ie: sliding, hydroplaning, slamming on brakes, etc.). Perhaps drivers education courses should focus more on these kinds of situations rather than merely how to obey traffic laws.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>would cut power to the engine if both pedals were pressedSo anyone who starts from a stop on a steep incline by slowly depressing the brake while simultaneously pressing the gas to avoid rolling back into the vehicle behind them will now stall their vehicle ? The accidents that have occurred as a result of this are tragic .
But adding quirky behavior as a stop-gap measure seems ridiculous and sets a bad precedent .
Is there anything out there to make sure vehicle behavior is reasonably consistent across different vehicles ( or even vehicle firmware versions ) ?
Or are we going to have to be aware of all the different firmware ins and outs between different models and firmware versions.I 've been especially surprised at the fact that so many people seem to think that sudden acceleration is unstoppable .
If you 're driving a vehicle that suddenly accelerates and you can not prevent the acceleration PUT THE VEHICLE IN NEUTRAL OR DOWNSHIFT ( and yes you can downshift with automatics ) !
How people can get their driver 's license while thinking the only way to slow/stop a vehicle is to press the brake is beyond me .
I know panic can set in and can make reacting to unexpected dangerous situations difficult , but is n't that why you had a learner 's permit first ?
My father took me to an empty lot and had me practice reacting to different situations that you can encounter which can be dangerous if you panic ( ie : sliding , hydroplaning , slamming on brakes , etc. ) .
Perhaps drivers education courses should focus more on these kinds of situations rather than merely how to obey traffic laws .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>would cut power to the engine if both pedals were pressedSo anyone who starts from a stop on a steep incline by slowly depressing the brake while simultaneously pressing the gas to avoid rolling back into the vehicle behind them will now stall their vehicle?The accidents that have occurred as a result of this are tragic.
But adding quirky behavior as a stop-gap measure seems ridiculous and sets a bad precedent.
Is there anything out there to make sure vehicle behavior is reasonably consistent across different vehicles (or even vehicle firmware versions)?
Or are we going to have to be aware of all the different firmware ins and outs between different models and firmware versions.I've been especially surprised at the fact that so many people seem to think that sudden acceleration is unstoppable.
If you're driving a vehicle that suddenly accelerates and you cannot prevent the acceleration PUT THE VEHICLE IN NEUTRAL OR DOWNSHIFT (and yes you can downshift with automatics)!
How people can get their driver's license while thinking the only way to slow/stop a vehicle is to press the brake is beyond me.
I know panic can set in and can make reacting to unexpected dangerous situations difficult, but isn't that why you had a learner's permit first?
My father took me to an empty lot and had me practice reacting to different situations that you can encounter which can be dangerous if you panic (ie: sliding, hydroplaning, slamming on brakes, etc.).
Perhaps drivers education courses should focus more on these kinds of situations rather than merely how to obey traffic laws.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31294850</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>greg1104</author>
	<datestamp>1267208700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>In that case, your only chance is the brake overriding the gas (a process which should have been true from the beginning anyway).</p></div><p>The recommended workaround for this problem is actually to shift the car into neutral.  The reason for the firmware upgrade is that most people will not think of that under pressure, and will instinctively slam on the break instead, which is of limited utility in some cases.</p><p>I don't think it's either a firmware or a pedal sensor bug alone--probably a bad combination of the two.  The difficult bugs never have a single source.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>In that case , your only chance is the brake overriding the gas ( a process which should have been true from the beginning anyway ) .The recommended workaround for this problem is actually to shift the car into neutral .
The reason for the firmware upgrade is that most people will not think of that under pressure , and will instinctively slam on the break instead , which is of limited utility in some cases.I do n't think it 's either a firmware or a pedal sensor bug alone--probably a bad combination of the two .
The difficult bugs never have a single source .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In that case, your only chance is the brake overriding the gas (a process which should have been true from the beginning anyway).The recommended workaround for this problem is actually to shift the car into neutral.
The reason for the firmware upgrade is that most people will not think of that under pressure, and will instinctively slam on the break instead, which is of limited utility in some cases.I don't think it's either a firmware or a pedal sensor bug alone--probably a bad combination of the two.
The difficult bugs never have a single source.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287676</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288270</id>
	<title>Trust your automaker</title>
	<author>Improv</author>
	<datestamp>1267211880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you have to bet between your judgement and that of your auto manufacturer, I'd suggest that unless you really know what you're talking about, bet on the auto manufacturer. They're the experts.</p><p>Likewise, if you're some independent thinker and have an idea how something works, but the scientific community has significant work in the field, you should generally bet on them rather than you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you have to bet between your judgement and that of your auto manufacturer , I 'd suggest that unless you really know what you 're talking about , bet on the auto manufacturer .
They 're the experts.Likewise , if you 're some independent thinker and have an idea how something works , but the scientific community has significant work in the field , you should generally bet on them rather than you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you have to bet between your judgement and that of your auto manufacturer, I'd suggest that unless you really know what you're talking about, bet on the auto manufacturer.
They're the experts.Likewise, if you're some independent thinker and have an idea how something works, but the scientific community has significant work in the field, you should generally bet on them rather than you.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286206</id>
	<title>Take the update</title>
	<author>Deflatamouse!</author>
	<datestamp>1267205220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I work on HP's high end servers that also contains millions lines of firmware.</p><p>I've heard of accounts where customers simply refuse to take new firmware because of their prior experience of "bricking" the boxes, and causing days of outage waiting for new blades to be shipped to them.  But those usually turn out to be cases of real bad HW defects that the newer firmware has found.  But they still insist on running years old firmware that contains tons of nasty bugs.</p><p>We all know that software has bugs, and we fix hundreds of them every month. This is not as mission critical as firmware in a car, but it's the same thing.  Take the update dammit!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I work on HP 's high end servers that also contains millions lines of firmware.I 've heard of accounts where customers simply refuse to take new firmware because of their prior experience of " bricking " the boxes , and causing days of outage waiting for new blades to be shipped to them .
But those usually turn out to be cases of real bad HW defects that the newer firmware has found .
But they still insist on running years old firmware that contains tons of nasty bugs.We all know that software has bugs , and we fix hundreds of them every month .
This is not as mission critical as firmware in a car , but it 's the same thing .
Take the update dammit !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I work on HP's high end servers that also contains millions lines of firmware.I've heard of accounts where customers simply refuse to take new firmware because of their prior experience of "bricking" the boxes, and causing days of outage waiting for new blades to be shipped to them.
But those usually turn out to be cases of real bad HW defects that the newer firmware has found.
But they still insist on running years old firmware that contains tons of nasty bugs.We all know that software has bugs, and we fix hundreds of them every month.
This is not as mission critical as firmware in a car, but it's the same thing.
Take the update dammit!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288414</id>
	<title>See what happens when you fire the old guys?</title>
	<author>jeko</author>
	<datestamp>1267212360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Last week on Slashdot, we had a discussion about how people with more than two years of coding experience were unnecessary.</p><p>Today we're talking about how unmanageable and buggy code is literally killing people.</p><p>Am I the only one who wishes that the code that controls whether or not my car crashes and burns was written by a guy with decades of experience?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Last week on Slashdot , we had a discussion about how people with more than two years of coding experience were unnecessary.Today we 're talking about how unmanageable and buggy code is literally killing people.Am I the only one who wishes that the code that controls whether or not my car crashes and burns was written by a guy with decades of experience ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Last week on Slashdot, we had a discussion about how people with more than two years of coding experience were unnecessary.Today we're talking about how unmanageable and buggy code is literally killing people.Am I the only one who wishes that the code that controls whether or not my car crashes and burns was written by a guy with decades of experience?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31291062</id>
	<title>Re:I will be getting that firmware update</title>
	<author>ooloogi</author>
	<datestamp>1267181040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It appears that the 09 Prius is shift by wire, so it seems plausible that a software problem could at the same time leave the throttle fully open, ignore the brake switch input, ignore transmission shift position, and ignore the stop switch.</p><p>With conventional cars there was always three clearly separate systems: the engine throttle, the ignition switch, and the transmission shift.  With those we could see that there could be no common point of  failure that would affect more than one at a time.  With some of the new cars, such as in the Prius, from the consumer point of view this is no longer the case.  For all we know, those systems may now be all integrated and have the potential for one failure to affect all the means of stopping the car.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It appears that the 09 Prius is shift by wire , so it seems plausible that a software problem could at the same time leave the throttle fully open , ignore the brake switch input , ignore transmission shift position , and ignore the stop switch.With conventional cars there was always three clearly separate systems : the engine throttle , the ignition switch , and the transmission shift .
With those we could see that there could be no common point of failure that would affect more than one at a time .
With some of the new cars , such as in the Prius , from the consumer point of view this is no longer the case .
For all we know , those systems may now be all integrated and have the potential for one failure to affect all the means of stopping the car .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It appears that the 09 Prius is shift by wire, so it seems plausible that a software problem could at the same time leave the throttle fully open, ignore the brake switch input, ignore transmission shift position, and ignore the stop switch.With conventional cars there was always three clearly separate systems: the engine throttle, the ignition switch, and the transmission shift.
With those we could see that there could be no common point of  failure that would affect more than one at a time.
With some of the new cars, such as in the Prius, from the consumer point of view this is no longer the case.
For all we know, those systems may now be all integrated and have the potential for one failure to affect all the means of stopping the car.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286198</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288790</id>
	<title>Re:1st bug found</title>
	<author>h4rr4r</author>
	<datestamp>1267213800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How are you using both of those pedals with your right foot?</p><p>If you are using your left foot, I hope the following accident kills or at least maims you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How are you using both of those pedals with your right foot ? If you are using your left foot , I hope the following accident kills or at least maims you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How are you using both of those pedals with your right foot?If you are using your left foot, I hope the following accident kills or at least maims you.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285982</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31291244</id>
	<title>Re:Jane, you ignorant slut...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267182000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Funny!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Funny !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Funny!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287132</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286374</id>
	<title>do it for insurance reasons</title>
	<author>Madman</author>
	<datestamp>1267205760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you willfully do not accept a safety update and you were in an accident your insurance company could make a case it was your fault for not keeping the car in a roadworthy condition.</p><p>I'd get the update.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you willfully do not accept a safety update and you were in an accident your insurance company could make a case it was your fault for not keeping the car in a roadworthy condition.I 'd get the update .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you willfully do not accept a safety update and you were in an accident your insurance company could make a case it was your fault for not keeping the car in a roadworthy condition.I'd get the update.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286794</id>
	<title>Crap! That sucks!</title>
	<author>Skal Tura</author>
	<datestamp>1267207020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No brake and gas at the sametime? That majorly sucks. Albeit, not usually needed but there are situations where you need to press both, besides when doing a burnout on a RWD<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</p><p>Drive By Wire in itself is a bit stupid idea<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... Servos break more easily tha hydraulic cylinders or legs. Electric connections get loose easier than hydraulic sealings start to leak. Nevermind the lost feeling of brake, gas and clutch pedals.<br>I drove once a drive by wire car, and i seriously couldn't use it during the winter: I had to take my shoes of to feel the pedals enough to know how much i'm pressing brake or acceleration.</p><p>Nevermind the fact that using traditional systems you apply force mostly directly to the brakes, and there can't be any software bugs.</p><p>I just wish in 20 years time i can still find "oldschool" cars which does not have drive by wire and issues it may cause, and rather has hard lines.</p><p>Did you think about the fact that this "floor mat" issue might not exist if there was traditional pedals with the amount of force being needed to press than in older cars? Not only will you actually feel the throttle position, but it wouldn't so easily be pressed by accident.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No brake and gas at the sametime ?
That majorly sucks .
Albeit , not usually needed but there are situations where you need to press both , besides when doing a burnout on a RWD ...Drive By Wire in itself is a bit stupid idea ... Servos break more easily tha hydraulic cylinders or legs .
Electric connections get loose easier than hydraulic sealings start to leak .
Nevermind the lost feeling of brake , gas and clutch pedals.I drove once a drive by wire car , and i seriously could n't use it during the winter : I had to take my shoes of to feel the pedals enough to know how much i 'm pressing brake or acceleration.Nevermind the fact that using traditional systems you apply force mostly directly to the brakes , and there ca n't be any software bugs.I just wish in 20 years time i can still find " oldschool " cars which does not have drive by wire and issues it may cause , and rather has hard lines.Did you think about the fact that this " floor mat " issue might not exist if there was traditional pedals with the amount of force being needed to press than in older cars ?
Not only will you actually feel the throttle position , but it would n't so easily be pressed by accident .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No brake and gas at the sametime?
That majorly sucks.
Albeit, not usually needed but there are situations where you need to press both, besides when doing a burnout on a RWD ...Drive By Wire in itself is a bit stupid idea ... Servos break more easily tha hydraulic cylinders or legs.
Electric connections get loose easier than hydraulic sealings start to leak.
Nevermind the lost feeling of brake, gas and clutch pedals.I drove once a drive by wire car, and i seriously couldn't use it during the winter: I had to take my shoes of to feel the pedals enough to know how much i'm pressing brake or acceleration.Nevermind the fact that using traditional systems you apply force mostly directly to the brakes, and there can't be any software bugs.I just wish in 20 years time i can still find "oldschool" cars which does not have drive by wire and issues it may cause, and rather has hard lines.Did you think about the fact that this "floor mat" issue might not exist if there was traditional pedals with the amount of force being needed to press than in older cars?
Not only will you actually feel the throttle position, but it wouldn't so easily be pressed by accident.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287584</id>
	<title>Re:100 million LOC</title>
	<author>DerekLyons</author>
	<datestamp>1267209720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>It is usually easier to write bug-free microcontroller code (ECUs and such) than general purpose PC code. Also, the distributed nature of most automotive microcontroller code keeps code separated into nice little easily-testable modules.</p></div></blockquote><p>That's fine for the individual little code modules.  But the code doesn't run as an individual little modules - it runs as part of an integrated and distributed system and has to be tested as such.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It is usually easier to write bug-free microcontroller code ( ECUs and such ) than general purpose PC code .
Also , the distributed nature of most automotive microcontroller code keeps code separated into nice little easily-testable modules.That 's fine for the individual little code modules .
But the code does n't run as an individual little modules - it runs as part of an integrated and distributed system and has to be tested as such .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is usually easier to write bug-free microcontroller code (ECUs and such) than general purpose PC code.
Also, the distributed nature of most automotive microcontroller code keeps code separated into nice little easily-testable modules.That's fine for the individual little code modules.
But the code doesn't run as an individual little modules - it runs as part of an integrated and distributed system and has to be tested as such.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286118</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31289670</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267217460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The floor mat red herring sounded bogus to me too.  From the many accounts I have heard, I suspect a timing race.  Until they find the real bug, the brakes-override-gas patch sounds like a good thing to accept.  And yes, it should have been there in the first place.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The floor mat red herring sounded bogus to me too .
From the many accounts I have heard , I suspect a timing race .
Until they find the real bug , the brakes-override-gas patch sounds like a good thing to accept .
And yes , it should have been there in the first place .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The floor mat red herring sounded bogus to me too.
From the many accounts I have heard, I suspect a timing race.
Until they find the real bug, the brakes-override-gas patch sounds like a good thing to accept.
And yes, it should have been there in the first place.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287676</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31294908</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>tlhIngan</author>
	<datestamp>1267209420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Which is why I don't like push-button ignition. If my car ever goes into hyperdrive because of a stuck throttle, I take comfort in knowing I still have a kill switch, and I grew up driving tractors and cars without power steering or power-assist braking, so I can cope.</p><p>How can I trust that that push-button ignition will still shut off the car? I know it's conceivable that even a key-start ignition might turn all ignition control over to an ECM, but who's done that?</p></div></blockquote><p>Well, if the car is accellerating out of control, one would hope that you would hit the <strong>brake</strong> first - the brake being far more powerful than the engine. Once you're stopped, you can then hunt for a way to turn off the engine.</p><p>As for those who think the parking brake isn't strong, it is. Just that you never engage it all the way so the engine can overcome it. You can really engage the parking brake so you can't move, but that requires pulling the lever or pushing the parking pedal far more than you normally do. You normally jerk it until it stops. It can go far more.</p><p>Also, the brake is fully mechanical (and hydraulic). The worst the car can do is activate ABS. This fix lets the engine cut out if you hit the brake and the ECU thinks the gas is still depressed. This is the "emergency stop" function. Even if the engine is overrevving and you're stopped, the worst that happens is you destroy the drivetrain, but you're safely stopped.</p><p>Ditto things like power windows and door locks - the ECU doesn't actually control the locks and windows, but it can send up/down and lock/unlock signals to the switch, which is wired to the door locks and windows. The switch takes precedence.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Which is why I do n't like push-button ignition .
If my car ever goes into hyperdrive because of a stuck throttle , I take comfort in knowing I still have a kill switch , and I grew up driving tractors and cars without power steering or power-assist braking , so I can cope.How can I trust that that push-button ignition will still shut off the car ?
I know it 's conceivable that even a key-start ignition might turn all ignition control over to an ECM , but who 's done that ? Well , if the car is accellerating out of control , one would hope that you would hit the brake first - the brake being far more powerful than the engine .
Once you 're stopped , you can then hunt for a way to turn off the engine.As for those who think the parking brake is n't strong , it is .
Just that you never engage it all the way so the engine can overcome it .
You can really engage the parking brake so you ca n't move , but that requires pulling the lever or pushing the parking pedal far more than you normally do .
You normally jerk it until it stops .
It can go far more.Also , the brake is fully mechanical ( and hydraulic ) .
The worst the car can do is activate ABS .
This fix lets the engine cut out if you hit the brake and the ECU thinks the gas is still depressed .
This is the " emergency stop " function .
Even if the engine is overrevving and you 're stopped , the worst that happens is you destroy the drivetrain , but you 're safely stopped.Ditto things like power windows and door locks - the ECU does n't actually control the locks and windows , but it can send up/down and lock/unlock signals to the switch , which is wired to the door locks and windows .
The switch takes precedence .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Which is why I don't like push-button ignition.
If my car ever goes into hyperdrive because of a stuck throttle, I take comfort in knowing I still have a kill switch, and I grew up driving tractors and cars without power steering or power-assist braking, so I can cope.How can I trust that that push-button ignition will still shut off the car?
I know it's conceivable that even a key-start ignition might turn all ignition control over to an ECM, but who's done that?Well, if the car is accellerating out of control, one would hope that you would hit the brake first - the brake being far more powerful than the engine.
Once you're stopped, you can then hunt for a way to turn off the engine.As for those who think the parking brake isn't strong, it is.
Just that you never engage it all the way so the engine can overcome it.
You can really engage the parking brake so you can't move, but that requires pulling the lever or pushing the parking pedal far more than you normally do.
You normally jerk it until it stops.
It can go far more.Also, the brake is fully mechanical (and hydraulic).
The worst the car can do is activate ABS.
This fix lets the engine cut out if you hit the brake and the ECU thinks the gas is still depressed.
This is the "emergency stop" function.
Even if the engine is overrevving and you're stopped, the worst that happens is you destroy the drivetrain, but you're safely stopped.Ditto things like power windows and door locks - the ECU doesn't actually control the locks and windows, but it can send up/down and lock/unlock signals to the switch, which is wired to the door locks and windows.
The switch takes precedence.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288360</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286112</id>
	<title>Re:1st bug found</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267204980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So you don't understand what this update will do.  You're also fucking retarded, and you can't drive if you intentionally tap the break while still pressing on the accelerator.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So you do n't understand what this update will do .
You 're also fucking retarded , and you ca n't drive if you intentionally tap the break while still pressing on the accelerator .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So you don't understand what this update will do.
You're also fucking retarded, and you can't drive if you intentionally tap the break while still pressing on the accelerator.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285982</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31310036</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>qzulla</author>
	<datestamp>1267360800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Those tractors and cars were designed without power assist. Todays cars are. Try driving a modern car without power assisted steering, for example. I think you will find it worlds different than the old vehicles. I had a unit go out and it was a bear to turn even a slight curve in the road.</p><p>q</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Those tractors and cars were designed without power assist .
Todays cars are .
Try driving a modern car without power assisted steering , for example .
I think you will find it worlds different than the old vehicles .
I had a unit go out and it was a bear to turn even a slight curve in the road.q</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Those tractors and cars were designed without power assist.
Todays cars are.
Try driving a modern car without power assisted steering, for example.
I think you will find it worlds different than the old vehicles.
I had a unit go out and it was a bear to turn even a slight curve in the road.q</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288360</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288926</id>
	<title>Re:I will say this</title>
	<author>Bigjeff5</author>
	<datestamp>1267214340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So open source software never has bugs?</p><p>Huh, that's strange, I really thought bugs were related to the nature of programming, and not tied to a particular economic model, but maybe I'm wrong.  Apparently all those bug fixes over the years in every single open source program that has ever been written weren't actually bugs, because the open source model can't produce bugs.</p><p>What were they then?  Hmmm... I guess we need a new name for them, wait I've got it!  Open source has "undocumented features" that it was decided they didn't need!  Yeah, and all those "bug fixes" were really just "feature updates"!</p><p>Wait a second, that sounds vaguely familiar, like maybe something a company that is reviled and hated in the open source community once said.  Hm, oh well, whatever.</p><p>Dumbass.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So open source software never has bugs ? Huh , that 's strange , I really thought bugs were related to the nature of programming , and not tied to a particular economic model , but maybe I 'm wrong .
Apparently all those bug fixes over the years in every single open source program that has ever been written were n't actually bugs , because the open source model ca n't produce bugs.What were they then ?
Hmmm... I guess we need a new name for them , wait I 've got it !
Open source has " undocumented features " that it was decided they did n't need !
Yeah , and all those " bug fixes " were really just " feature updates " ! Wait a second , that sounds vaguely familiar , like maybe something a company that is reviled and hated in the open source community once said .
Hm , oh well , whatever.Dumbass .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So open source software never has bugs?Huh, that's strange, I really thought bugs were related to the nature of programming, and not tied to a particular economic model, but maybe I'm wrong.
Apparently all those bug fixes over the years in every single open source program that has ever been written weren't actually bugs, because the open source model can't produce bugs.What were they then?
Hmmm... I guess we need a new name for them, wait I've got it!
Open source has "undocumented features" that it was decided they didn't need!
Yeah, and all those "bug fixes" were really just "feature updates"!Wait a second, that sounds vaguely familiar, like maybe something a company that is reviled and hated in the open source community once said.
Hm, oh well, whatever.Dumbass.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286124</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286304</id>
	<title>Ummmmm...</title>
	<author>Minwee</author>
	<datestamp>1267205520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>"My car was recently targeted by a massive recall after five people died and many more were injured due to serious problems with the control software.  Since my car has good floor mats I somehow think that I am safe from this and would like to ignore this recall and keep driving despite the danger.  Do you all think this is a good idea?"</p></div></blockquote><p>If that's actually the question that you are asking, and not just the result of a more coherent argument being cut apart by overly zealous editing, then I think it would be a good idea for all of us if you stopped driving altogether.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" My car was recently targeted by a massive recall after five people died and many more were injured due to serious problems with the control software .
Since my car has good floor mats I somehow think that I am safe from this and would like to ignore this recall and keep driving despite the danger .
Do you all think this is a good idea ?
" If that 's actually the question that you are asking , and not just the result of a more coherent argument being cut apart by overly zealous editing , then I think it would be a good idea for all of us if you stopped driving altogether .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"My car was recently targeted by a massive recall after five people died and many more were injured due to serious problems with the control software.
Since my car has good floor mats I somehow think that I am safe from this and would like to ignore this recall and keep driving despite the danger.
Do you all think this is a good idea?
"If that's actually the question that you are asking, and not just the result of a more coherent argument being cut apart by overly zealous editing, then I think it would be a good idea for all of us if you stopped driving altogether.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285930</id>
	<title>Umm... yes</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267204380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Unpatched PCs are bad enough.  If I can't go outside because of morons with unpatched cars, I will be very unhappy.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Unpatched PCs are bad enough .
If I ca n't go outside because of morons with unpatched cars , I will be very unhappy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unpatched PCs are bad enough.
If I can't go outside because of morons with unpatched cars, I will be very unhappy.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31289612</id>
	<title>Re:Seriously?</title>
	<author>StikyPad</author>
	<datestamp>1267217160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I hate to sound like a broken record here, but I'm seriously disappointed in the critical thinking skills of Slashdot today.</p><p>"Presumably from this exact bug?"  People are involved in fatal single-car accidents every day where the floormats are securely in place.  I believe the technical term is "falling asleep at the wheel."  It's only in light of the recent hysteria that the default presumption has become "because the car took control from the driver and caused him to hurtle headlong into a tree."  Unanticipated acceleration, even in light of recent events, is still a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebra\_(medical)" title="wikipedia.org">zebra</a> [wikipedia.org].</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I hate to sound like a broken record here , but I 'm seriously disappointed in the critical thinking skills of Slashdot today .
" Presumably from this exact bug ?
" People are involved in fatal single-car accidents every day where the floormats are securely in place .
I believe the technical term is " falling asleep at the wheel .
" It 's only in light of the recent hysteria that the default presumption has become " because the car took control from the driver and caused him to hurtle headlong into a tree .
" Unanticipated acceleration , even in light of recent events , is still a zebra [ wikipedia.org ] .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I hate to sound like a broken record here, but I'm seriously disappointed in the critical thinking skills of Slashdot today.
"Presumably from this exact bug?
"  People are involved in fatal single-car accidents every day where the floormats are securely in place.
I believe the technical term is "falling asleep at the wheel.
"  It's only in light of the recent hysteria that the default presumption has become "because the car took control from the driver and caused him to hurtle headlong into a tree.
"  Unanticipated acceleration, even in light of recent events, is still a zebra [wikipedia.org].</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286036</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286540</id>
	<title>Re:Jane, you ignorant slut...</title>
	<author>u38cg</author>
	<datestamp>1267206240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>No.  It ain't that bad.</htmltext>
<tokenext>No .
It ai n't that bad .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No.
It ain't that bad.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286082</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31290104</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>ncc74656</author>
	<datestamp>1267176420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Anyone who tends to ride their breaks [sic]</p></div></blockquote><p>...is doing it wrong.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Anyone who tends to ride their breaks [ sic ] ...is doing it wrong .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Anyone who tends to ride their breaks [sic]...is doing it wrong.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287996</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286460</id>
	<title>Re:Take the subway - or campaign for one to exist.</title>
	<author>Wyatt Earp</author>
	<datestamp>1267206060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Take it to an urban renewal conversation. This is about a flaw in an automobile, this is effecting people today, campaigning for mass transit, while a good idea, isn't going to help with the immediate problem, it'll help with problems 10-20 years down the road.</p><p>Cars are the leading cause of death from 1-34, but after that its cardio and cancers. And the firearms stats aren't all murders and suicides -  Firearms Statistics Include Gang Warfare, Self Defense Shootings and Criminals Killed by Police.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Take it to an urban renewal conversation .
This is about a flaw in an automobile , this is effecting people today , campaigning for mass transit , while a good idea , is n't going to help with the immediate problem , it 'll help with problems 10-20 years down the road.Cars are the leading cause of death from 1-34 , but after that its cardio and cancers .
And the firearms stats are n't all murders and suicides - Firearms Statistics Include Gang Warfare , Self Defense Shootings and Criminals Killed by Police .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Take it to an urban renewal conversation.
This is about a flaw in an automobile, this is effecting people today, campaigning for mass transit, while a good idea, isn't going to help with the immediate problem, it'll help with problems 10-20 years down the road.Cars are the leading cause of death from 1-34, but after that its cardio and cancers.
And the firearms stats aren't all murders and suicides -  Firearms Statistics Include Gang Warfare, Self Defense Shootings and Criminals Killed by Police.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286106</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286282</id>
	<title>kdawson sucks</title>
	<author>Nimey</author>
	<datestamp>1267205460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What possessed you to post such a fucking stupid question?  "Hey, I'm a code monkey who writes shitty VB6 for a living, and based on my vast experience with fucking up motherboard BIOS upgrades thanks to my own stupidity, I know that people tend to write bad code."</p><p>Goes to show that just because somebody's smart enough to know how to program (or to "edit") doesn't mean he knows a goddamn thing about anything else.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What possessed you to post such a fucking stupid question ?
" Hey , I 'm a code monkey who writes shitty VB6 for a living , and based on my vast experience with fucking up motherboard BIOS upgrades thanks to my own stupidity , I know that people tend to write bad code .
" Goes to show that just because somebody 's smart enough to know how to program ( or to " edit " ) does n't mean he knows a goddamn thing about anything else .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What possessed you to post such a fucking stupid question?
"Hey, I'm a code monkey who writes shitty VB6 for a living, and based on my vast experience with fucking up motherboard BIOS upgrades thanks to my own stupidity, I know that people tend to write bad code.
"Goes to show that just because somebody's smart enough to know how to program (or to "edit") doesn't mean he knows a goddamn thing about anything else.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286898</id>
	<title>Re:100 million line of code total BS</title>
	<author>urulokion</author>
	<datestamp>1267207380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Uh no. Its not like they is one central controllers running the whole show in a car. Cars today are very highly computerized. They have dozens of controllers through out the car or more. Yes each individual controller's flash memory is small. But when taken together you can get a large total.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Uh no .
Its not like they is one central controllers running the whole show in a car .
Cars today are very highly computerized .
They have dozens of controllers through out the car or more .
Yes each individual controller 's flash memory is small .
But when taken together you can get a large total .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Uh no.
Its not like they is one central controllers running the whole show in a car.
Cars today are very highly computerized.
They have dozens of controllers through out the car or more.
Yes each individual controller's flash memory is small.
But when taken together you can get a large total.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286528</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286884</id>
	<title>You better take it ...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267207320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>or the UAW will come and break your legs and disappear your family...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>or the UAW will come and break your legs and disappear your family.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>or the UAW will come and break your legs and disappear your family...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287046</id>
	<title>You're too naive...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267207860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're pretty naive if you blindly accept that the floor mats are the real and/or only issue.  Same, too, if you believe the only thing in the firmware update is the addition of the functionality you describe and not some quiet bug fixes, too.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're pretty naive if you blindly accept that the floor mats are the real and/or only issue .
Same , too , if you believe the only thing in the firmware update is the addition of the functionality you describe and not some quiet bug fixes , too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're pretty naive if you blindly accept that the floor mats are the real and/or only issue.
Same, too, if you believe the only thing in the firmware update is the addition of the functionality you describe and not some quiet bug fixes, too.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287534</id>
	<title>Re:I call shenanigans.</title>
	<author>modulo</author>
	<datestamp>1267209540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Nice try, but if the sensor is bad (shorted?), or if the high bit in the memory cell where ServoPosition is stuck high [and they aren't using ECC) you're still in trouble with your fix.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Nice try , but if the sensor is bad ( shorted ?
) , or if the high bit in the memory cell where ServoPosition is stuck high [ and they are n't using ECC ) you 're still in trouble with your fix .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nice try, but if the sensor is bad (shorted?
), or if the high bit in the memory cell where ServoPosition is stuck high [and they aren't using ECC) you're still in trouble with your fix.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286322</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285940</id>
	<title>Their new slogan</title>
	<author>Rik Sweeney</author>
	<datestamp>1267204440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The car in front is a Toyota because the accelerator pedal is stuck down</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The car in front is a Toyota because the accelerator pedal is stuck down</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The car in front is a Toyota because the accelerator pedal is stuck down</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287806</id>
	<title>Unsure myself</title>
	<author>linuxtelephony</author>
	<datestamp>1267210380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm unsure myself - personally I want to know exactly what traits are being changed. There are times where using both pedals at the same time can be useful. Admittedly in a passenger car on the road it's a lot less frequent than going off road or rock crawling in a 4x4.</p><p>Specifically, I want to know what criteria need to be met for it to trigger. Does the change cause the engine shutdown (or return to idle? presumably return to idle) at any point when both the brake and gas are pushed at any speed, or only if the vehicle is traveling over 10-20 mph, or only if the accelerator pedal is pressed more then X\%?</p><p>Odds are I'll end up getting it regardless, just for overall safety in general. Though i'll be pretty annoyed if it is a simple if gas and brake then stall.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm unsure myself - personally I want to know exactly what traits are being changed .
There are times where using both pedals at the same time can be useful .
Admittedly in a passenger car on the road it 's a lot less frequent than going off road or rock crawling in a 4x4.Specifically , I want to know what criteria need to be met for it to trigger .
Does the change cause the engine shutdown ( or return to idle ?
presumably return to idle ) at any point when both the brake and gas are pushed at any speed , or only if the vehicle is traveling over 10-20 mph , or only if the accelerator pedal is pressed more then X \ % ? Odds are I 'll end up getting it regardless , just for overall safety in general .
Though i 'll be pretty annoyed if it is a simple if gas and brake then stall .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm unsure myself - personally I want to know exactly what traits are being changed.
There are times where using both pedals at the same time can be useful.
Admittedly in a passenger car on the road it's a lot less frequent than going off road or rock crawling in a 4x4.Specifically, I want to know what criteria need to be met for it to trigger.
Does the change cause the engine shutdown (or return to idle?
presumably return to idle) at any point when both the brake and gas are pushed at any speed, or only if the vehicle is traveling over 10-20 mph, or only if the accelerator pedal is pressed more then X\%?Odds are I'll end up getting it regardless, just for overall safety in general.
Though i'll be pretty annoyed if it is a simple if gas and brake then stall.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287886</id>
	<title>Re:I call shanagans.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267210680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Or, maybe after the update the pedal will not be used anymore for accelerating a Toyota car but for Accelerating a Boeing<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... and all  in just a three-month development cycle<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)))</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Or , maybe after the update the pedal will not be used anymore for accelerating a Toyota car but for Accelerating a Boeing ... and all in just a three-month development cycle : ) ) )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or, maybe after the update the pedal will not be used anymore for accelerating a Toyota car but for Accelerating a Boeing ... and all  in just a three-month development cycle :)))</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286322</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287558</id>
	<title>Re:100 million line of code total BS</title>
	<author>Andy Dodd</author>
	<datestamp>1267209660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Actually, I find it believable, IF you include the navigation/entertainment system and the OS that the nav software runs on top of.  (Typically WinCE).</p><p>However, the nav/entertainment system is pretty well decoupled from the ECU...  Which these days might now be up to 128k flash...  MAYBE.  That's for a ROM with some pretty fancy matrix-style LUTs to optimize spark timing and fuel injector PWMs for all load/throttle conditions, including sophisticated ionization current sensing techniques.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Actually , I find it believable , IF you include the navigation/entertainment system and the OS that the nav software runs on top of .
( Typically WinCE ) .However , the nav/entertainment system is pretty well decoupled from the ECU... Which these days might now be up to 128k flash... MAYBE. That 's for a ROM with some pretty fancy matrix-style LUTs to optimize spark timing and fuel injector PWMs for all load/throttle conditions , including sophisticated ionization current sensing techniques .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Actually, I find it believable, IF you include the navigation/entertainment system and the OS that the nav software runs on top of.
(Typically WinCE).However, the nav/entertainment system is pretty well decoupled from the ECU...  Which these days might now be up to 128k flash...  MAYBE.  That's for a ROM with some pretty fancy matrix-style LUTs to optimize spark timing and fuel injector PWMs for all load/throttle conditions, including sophisticated ionization current sensing techniques.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286528</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31292652</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267190040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A device without a real off switch is broken by design. Especially if it's a device that can kill people.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A device without a real off switch is broken by design .
Especially if it 's a device that can kill people .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A device without a real off switch is broken by design.
Especially if it's a device that can kill people.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288360</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287056</id>
	<title>To update, or not to update</title>
	<author>woboyle</author>
	<datestamp>1267207860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>That is the question. Although this failure occurs, relatively speaking rarely, I'm not so sure that Toyota has determined the root cause(s) of the failure. The number of combinations of inputs are huge, and the subset of those that can cause catastrophic failure is small. How can we be even reasonably sure that they have isolated those causes? In my opinion, as a software engineer with almost 30 years experience in embedded, real-time, large-scale, and high-reliability systems design and implementation I have to believe that this is not a coding error per se, but a design flaw in the system itself. Properly designed, safety critical systems will "fail safe". This is not happening. So, who knows if the changes made will make the system, over all, more or less safe? Without a complete model and access to ALL source code and the tool chain used to implement these systems, one cannot say.
<br> <br>
Bottom line? There is no way to say that updating the software/firmware will make the system more, or less, reliable. Personally, I think it's a crap shoot. So, do the update. The results probably won't be more dire than the current situation, and may reduce the solution set for catastrophic failure scenarios.</htmltext>
<tokenext>That is the question .
Although this failure occurs , relatively speaking rarely , I 'm not so sure that Toyota has determined the root cause ( s ) of the failure .
The number of combinations of inputs are huge , and the subset of those that can cause catastrophic failure is small .
How can we be even reasonably sure that they have isolated those causes ?
In my opinion , as a software engineer with almost 30 years experience in embedded , real-time , large-scale , and high-reliability systems design and implementation I have to believe that this is not a coding error per se , but a design flaw in the system itself .
Properly designed , safety critical systems will " fail safe " .
This is not happening .
So , who knows if the changes made will make the system , over all , more or less safe ?
Without a complete model and access to ALL source code and the tool chain used to implement these systems , one can not say .
Bottom line ?
There is no way to say that updating the software/firmware will make the system more , or less , reliable .
Personally , I think it 's a crap shoot .
So , do the update .
The results probably wo n't be more dire than the current situation , and may reduce the solution set for catastrophic failure scenarios .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That is the question.
Although this failure occurs, relatively speaking rarely, I'm not so sure that Toyota has determined the root cause(s) of the failure.
The number of combinations of inputs are huge, and the subset of those that can cause catastrophic failure is small.
How can we be even reasonably sure that they have isolated those causes?
In my opinion, as a software engineer with almost 30 years experience in embedded, real-time, large-scale, and high-reliability systems design and implementation I have to believe that this is not a coding error per se, but a design flaw in the system itself.
Properly designed, safety critical systems will "fail safe".
This is not happening.
So, who knows if the changes made will make the system, over all, more or less safe?
Without a complete model and access to ALL source code and the tool chain used to implement these systems, one cannot say.
Bottom line?
There is no way to say that updating the software/firmware will make the system more, or less, reliable.
Personally, I think it's a crap shoot.
So, do the update.
The results probably won't be more dire than the current situation, and may reduce the solution set for catastrophic failure scenarios.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31289946</id>
	<title>this firmware update is what we call a HACK.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267175820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you've done any software engineering, this change (if brake=1, pedal =1 then shutdown) describes NEW behavior. New behavior requires a lot of real world testing, especially if it's safety related and follow-on analysis....It is not a simple user story with test result and gets slammed into the next build, and is 'beta' tested, which is appears like (since Toyota follows Lean, and the patch came out so quickly)--hence why this should be called a hack.
<br>
<br>
In the end, I see that this and related updates will be a great case study on agile vs. traditional development methods on mission critical software.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you 've done any software engineering , this change ( if brake = 1 , pedal = 1 then shutdown ) describes NEW behavior .
New behavior requires a lot of real world testing , especially if it 's safety related and follow-on analysis....It is not a simple user story with test result and gets slammed into the next build , and is 'beta ' tested , which is appears like ( since Toyota follows Lean , and the patch came out so quickly ) --hence why this should be called a hack .
In the end , I see that this and related updates will be a great case study on agile vs. traditional development methods on mission critical software .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you've done any software engineering, this change (if brake=1, pedal =1 then shutdown) describes NEW behavior.
New behavior requires a lot of real world testing, especially if it's safety related and follow-on analysis....It is not a simple user story with test result and gets slammed into the next build, and is 'beta' tested, which is appears like (since Toyota follows Lean, and the patch came out so quickly)--hence why this should be called a hack.
In the end, I see that this and related updates will be a great case study on agile vs. traditional development methods on mission critical software.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286322</id>
	<title>I call shanagans.</title>
	<author>moogied</author>
	<datestamp>1267205580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>I highly doubt this guy is a developer.  If he was he would understand how fixing a peice of already running software goes...  especially with a known bug.  Almost all patches are done in short development cycle because its an easy fix once you find what caused it.
<p>
To illustrate my point, take a made up piece of code that takes the position of 1 sensor, and uses that to control a servo.  Lets say that for whatever reason a peice of the code looks like: ServoPosition =(sensor1 + offset) * ServoOffset
</p><p>
Offset is used to correct for initial installation differences for the sensor, so the sensor can detect where it normally sits at idle(when not pressed) so that it can calculate its real position and not its perceived one.  NOW! Lets go one step further and say the offset is suppose to be a static variable the entire time the loop is running..  but what if, WHAT IF, the code doesn't lock the offset variable, and for whatever reason the chip is restarting its program over and over again, increasing the size of the offset variable.  Eventually, this could cause the sensors to detect the pedal being floored, when its not.   So how do you fix that?  Remove the offset variable from the part that could be ran over and over again.  Be sure to always set it to 0 when you restart the loop.
</p><p>
And then you wonder if its safe?  Really they changed less then 1\% of there code you fake developer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I highly doubt this guy is a developer .
If he was he would understand how fixing a peice of already running software goes... especially with a known bug .
Almost all patches are done in short development cycle because its an easy fix once you find what caused it .
To illustrate my point , take a made up piece of code that takes the position of 1 sensor , and uses that to control a servo .
Lets say that for whatever reason a peice of the code looks like : ServoPosition = ( sensor1 + offset ) * ServoOffset Offset is used to correct for initial installation differences for the sensor , so the sensor can detect where it normally sits at idle ( when not pressed ) so that it can calculate its real position and not its perceived one .
NOW ! Lets go one step further and say the offset is suppose to be a static variable the entire time the loop is running.. but what if , WHAT IF , the code does n't lock the offset variable , and for whatever reason the chip is restarting its program over and over again , increasing the size of the offset variable .
Eventually , this could cause the sensors to detect the pedal being floored , when its not .
So how do you fix that ?
Remove the offset variable from the part that could be ran over and over again .
Be sure to always set it to 0 when you restart the loop .
And then you wonder if its safe ?
Really they changed less then 1 \ % of there code you fake developer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I highly doubt this guy is a developer.
If he was he would understand how fixing a peice of already running software goes...  especially with a known bug.
Almost all patches are done in short development cycle because its an easy fix once you find what caused it.
To illustrate my point, take a made up piece of code that takes the position of 1 sensor, and uses that to control a servo.
Lets say that for whatever reason a peice of the code looks like: ServoPosition =(sensor1 + offset) * ServoOffset

Offset is used to correct for initial installation differences for the sensor, so the sensor can detect where it normally sits at idle(when not pressed) so that it can calculate its real position and not its perceived one.
NOW! Lets go one step further and say the offset is suppose to be a static variable the entire time the loop is running..  but what if, WHAT IF, the code doesn't lock the offset variable, and for whatever reason the chip is restarting its program over and over again, increasing the size of the offset variable.
Eventually, this could cause the sensors to detect the pedal being floored, when its not.
So how do you fix that?
Remove the offset variable from the part that could be ran over and over again.
Be sure to always set it to 0 when you restart the loop.
And then you wonder if its safe?
Really they changed less then 1\% of there code you fake developer.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286144</id>
	<title>Yes</title>
	<author>wisnoskij</author>
	<datestamp>1267205040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>And I would say the main reason for that answer is:<br>
If you do not take the update and get in an accident because of it the insurance company and Toyota will blame you, but if you upgrade and get in an accident because of it you are blameless (you just did what the bid company told you to do).<br> <br>
And we already know that the current software is buggy (that is why they are releasing the update), so trade a known problem for a potential one.</htmltext>
<tokenext>And I would say the main reason for that answer is : If you do not take the update and get in an accident because of it the insurance company and Toyota will blame you , but if you upgrade and get in an accident because of it you are blameless ( you just did what the bid company told you to do ) .
And we already know that the current software is buggy ( that is why they are releasing the update ) , so trade a known problem for a potential one .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And I would say the main reason for that answer is:
If you do not take the update and get in an accident because of it the insurance company and Toyota will blame you, but if you upgrade and get in an accident because of it you are blameless (you just did what the bid company told you to do).
And we already know that the current software is buggy (that is why they are releasing the update), so trade a known problem for a potential one.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286130</id>
	<title>There is nothing wrong with your toyota</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267204980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Does anyone remember the AUDI issues of the late 80s (Audi 5000s). Look it up, same thing. A bunch of mommys claimed there cars were sufforing "sudden acceleration" and running over thier children. Audi explained what they were claiming was not possible and they had just been accidently hitting the accelerator. Well once the press and 60 minutes got ahold of this it became an enormous issue (just like today) so much so that instead of trying to fight the endless and rediculous lawsuits and bad press, Audi simply pulled out of the North American market for a few years until all the nonsense calmed down.</p><p>Toyota made the misstake of trying to humour thier customers in the first place (with new floor mats and lubricating pedal linkages, etc), instead of calling them idiots who were accidentaly hitting the accelerator, which is what they actually are!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Does anyone remember the AUDI issues of the late 80s ( Audi 5000s ) .
Look it up , same thing .
A bunch of mommys claimed there cars were sufforing " sudden acceleration " and running over thier children .
Audi explained what they were claiming was not possible and they had just been accidently hitting the accelerator .
Well once the press and 60 minutes got ahold of this it became an enormous issue ( just like today ) so much so that instead of trying to fight the endless and rediculous lawsuits and bad press , Audi simply pulled out of the North American market for a few years until all the nonsense calmed down.Toyota made the misstake of trying to humour thier customers in the first place ( with new floor mats and lubricating pedal linkages , etc ) , instead of calling them idiots who were accidentaly hitting the accelerator , which is what they actually are !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Does anyone remember the AUDI issues of the late 80s (Audi 5000s).
Look it up, same thing.
A bunch of mommys claimed there cars were sufforing "sudden acceleration" and running over thier children.
Audi explained what they were claiming was not possible and they had just been accidently hitting the accelerator.
Well once the press and 60 minutes got ahold of this it became an enormous issue (just like today) so much so that instead of trying to fight the endless and rediculous lawsuits and bad press, Audi simply pulled out of the North American market for a few years until all the nonsense calmed down.Toyota made the misstake of trying to humour thier customers in the first place (with new floor mats and lubricating pedal linkages, etc), instead of calling them idiots who were accidentaly hitting the accelerator, which is what they actually are!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286778</id>
	<title>Re:1st bug found</title>
	<author>kalirion</author>
	<datestamp>1267206960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So when someone is tailgating you, you tap the break down while pressing down on the accelerator?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So when someone is tailgating you , you tap the break down while pressing down on the accelerator ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So when someone is tailgating you, you tap the break down while pressing down on the accelerator?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285982</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31292606</id>
	<title>Re:Jane, you ignorant slut...</title>
	<author>sir\_eccles</author>
	<datestamp>1267189800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Reading between the lines I would guess that this "developer" has performed some sort of chip mod or other somesuch modification of his rice rocket and is worried that the firmware update will brick his car much like Apple bricked jailbroken iphones. Thus having performed an out of warranty mod he is worried he will be liable should it go wrong not the dealership.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Reading between the lines I would guess that this " developer " has performed some sort of chip mod or other somesuch modification of his rice rocket and is worried that the firmware update will brick his car much like Apple bricked jailbroken iphones .
Thus having performed an out of warranty mod he is worried he will be liable should it go wrong not the dealership .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Reading between the lines I would guess that this "developer" has performed some sort of chip mod or other somesuch modification of his rice rocket and is worried that the firmware update will brick his car much like Apple bricked jailbroken iphones.
Thus having performed an out of warranty mod he is worried he will be liable should it go wrong not the dealership.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286082</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288478</id>
	<title>Re:I will be getting that firmware update</title>
	<author>Bloom Berg</author>
	<datestamp>1267212600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>What I'd really like to have an electrical circuit connection between the brake pedal and the throttle fly-by-wire assembly. When the circuit is tripped, the throttle position output of the assembly drops to 0 regardless of actual pedal position or sensor position.</p></div><p>You could wire the brake lights to a relay on the throttle servo.</p><p>

DIY Safety<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>What I 'd really like to have an electrical circuit connection between the brake pedal and the throttle fly-by-wire assembly .
When the circuit is tripped , the throttle position output of the assembly drops to 0 regardless of actual pedal position or sensor position.You could wire the brake lights to a relay on the throttle servo .
DIY Safety ; - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What I'd really like to have an electrical circuit connection between the brake pedal and the throttle fly-by-wire assembly.
When the circuit is tripped, the throttle position output of the assembly drops to 0 regardless of actual pedal position or sensor position.You could wire the brake lights to a relay on the throttle servo.
DIY Safety ;-)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286198</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287132</id>
	<title>Re:Jane, you ignorant slut...</title>
	<author>SuiteSisterMary</author>
	<datestamp>1267208160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I believe, truely and honestly, that the submitter thinks that he's expected to go to www.toyota.com, click on 'support,' 'downloads,' 'firmware,' 'by make and model,' and download a binary file which goes onto a USB key.</p><p>I believe that the submitter then thinks there will be instructions like 'pop the cover on the fuse panel, and insert the USB key containing the firmware upgrade in the USB slot.  Start the car while holding both the 'rear window defroster' and 'left turn signal' down.  The car will start in firmware upgrade mode and automatically start upgrading the firmware.  DO NOT POWER OFF THE CAR DURING THIS TIME.'</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I believe , truely and honestly , that the submitter thinks that he 's expected to go to www.toyota.com , click on 'support, ' 'downloads, ' 'firmware, ' 'by make and model, ' and download a binary file which goes onto a USB key.I believe that the submitter then thinks there will be instructions like 'pop the cover on the fuse panel , and insert the USB key containing the firmware upgrade in the USB slot .
Start the car while holding both the 'rear window defroster ' and 'left turn signal ' down .
The car will start in firmware upgrade mode and automatically start upgrading the firmware .
DO NOT POWER OFF THE CAR DURING THIS TIME .
'</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I believe, truely and honestly, that the submitter thinks that he's expected to go to www.toyota.com, click on 'support,' 'downloads,' 'firmware,' 'by make and model,' and download a binary file which goes onto a USB key.I believe that the submitter then thinks there will be instructions like 'pop the cover on the fuse panel, and insert the USB key containing the firmware upgrade in the USB slot.
Start the car while holding both the 'rear window defroster' and 'left turn signal' down.
The car will start in firmware upgrade mode and automatically start upgrading the firmware.
DO NOT POWER OFF THE CAR DURING THIS TIME.
'</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286082</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286062</id>
	<title>What?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267204800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The real answer is to find a vehicle that works MECHANICALLY, as it should.  If SOFTWARE is involved in what your brake pedal does, updating it doesn't change the fact that you're trusting your life to something that at least partially works in software, which is much more prone to failure than hardware.</p><p>To hell with modern cars and their stupidity.  This is why I won't buy any new cars and would rather pour my money into an older one for the little I use it.  The ideal scenario is to get rid of my stupid money pit completely, but it's not realistic right now.</p><p>I hate cars.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The real answer is to find a vehicle that works MECHANICALLY , as it should .
If SOFTWARE is involved in what your brake pedal does , updating it does n't change the fact that you 're trusting your life to something that at least partially works in software , which is much more prone to failure than hardware.To hell with modern cars and their stupidity .
This is why I wo n't buy any new cars and would rather pour my money into an older one for the little I use it .
The ideal scenario is to get rid of my stupid money pit completely , but it 's not realistic right now.I hate cars .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The real answer is to find a vehicle that works MECHANICALLY, as it should.
If SOFTWARE is involved in what your brake pedal does, updating it doesn't change the fact that you're trusting your life to something that at least partially works in software, which is much more prone to failure than hardware.To hell with modern cars and their stupidity.
This is why I won't buy any new cars and would rather pour my money into an older one for the little I use it.
The ideal scenario is to get rid of my stupid money pit completely, but it's not realistic right now.I hate cars.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286528</id>
	<title>100 million line of code total BS</title>
	<author>ghinckley68</author>
	<datestamp>1267206240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I find it very unlikely any car has more than about 5k lines of code. Probably more like 1k We are not talking Rocket Science here the engine only track about 40 parameters. I had an extra ECM for my 2001 Chrysler Concord it only had a 2k rom in it. The BCM and TCM probably even less.<br>Most cars all run the same software anyway.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I find it very unlikely any car has more than about 5k lines of code .
Probably more like 1k We are not talking Rocket Science here the engine only track about 40 parameters .
I had an extra ECM for my 2001 Chrysler Concord it only had a 2k rom in it .
The BCM and TCM probably even less.Most cars all run the same software anyway .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I find it very unlikely any car has more than about 5k lines of code.
Probably more like 1k We are not talking Rocket Science here the engine only track about 40 parameters.
I had an extra ECM for my 2001 Chrysler Concord it only had a 2k rom in it.
The BCM and TCM probably even less.Most cars all run the same software anyway.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287996</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>insomniac8400</author>
	<datestamp>1267211040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Please stop calling this a bug.  This essentially would make it so that the car can not be break started.  The ability to break start is normal for a car.  Anyone who tends to ride their breaks while driving will also see issues if they get this try catch type of fix.

There is no bug being fixed.  They are trying to add code that in the event the computer flakes out with acceleration, hopefully their disable engine code for the break pedal will still work.

And I don't know about you guys, but I definitely would not want my break pedal controlling my gas pedal.

Turn your car off if it accelerates out of control.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Please stop calling this a bug .
This essentially would make it so that the car can not be break started .
The ability to break start is normal for a car .
Anyone who tends to ride their breaks while driving will also see issues if they get this try catch type of fix .
There is no bug being fixed .
They are trying to add code that in the event the computer flakes out with acceleration , hopefully their disable engine code for the break pedal will still work .
And I do n't know about you guys , but I definitely would not want my break pedal controlling my gas pedal .
Turn your car off if it accelerates out of control .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Please stop calling this a bug.
This essentially would make it so that the car can not be break started.
The ability to break start is normal for a car.
Anyone who tends to ride their breaks while driving will also see issues if they get this try catch type of fix.
There is no bug being fixed.
They are trying to add code that in the event the computer flakes out with acceleration, hopefully their disable engine code for the break pedal will still work.
And I don't know about you guys, but I definitely would not want my break pedal controlling my gas pedal.
Turn your car off if it accelerates out of control.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286652</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287738</id>
	<title>My 0 lines of code fix...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267210140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Pop it into neutral.</p><p>I mean WTF? Have people really forgotten that automatics have a fucking neutral gear and if your accelerator pedal is stuck, pop the damn thing into neutral and then apply the brakes?</p><p>Apparently they did forget. Idiot drivers that have time to get on a cell phone and CALL for help with their car steadily climbing to 100mph+ and then crash and die...Put the fucking phone down and put the car in neutral and brake! How the hell these toyota drivers made last calls to their families before they crashed and yet didn't think about putting it into neutral is beyond me.</p><p>OP, yes, get the damn update.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Pop it into neutral.I mean WTF ?
Have people really forgotten that automatics have a fucking neutral gear and if your accelerator pedal is stuck , pop the damn thing into neutral and then apply the brakes ? Apparently they did forget .
Idiot drivers that have time to get on a cell phone and CALL for help with their car steadily climbing to 100mph + and then crash and die...Put the fucking phone down and put the car in neutral and brake !
How the hell these toyota drivers made last calls to their families before they crashed and yet did n't think about putting it into neutral is beyond me.OP , yes , get the damn update .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Pop it into neutral.I mean WTF?
Have people really forgotten that automatics have a fucking neutral gear and if your accelerator pedal is stuck, pop the damn thing into neutral and then apply the brakes?Apparently they did forget.
Idiot drivers that have time to get on a cell phone and CALL for help with their car steadily climbing to 100mph+ and then crash and die...Put the fucking phone down and put the car in neutral and brake!
How the hell these toyota drivers made last calls to their families before they crashed and yet didn't think about putting it into neutral is beyond me.OP, yes, get the damn update.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286018</id>
	<title>sliding floor mats</title>
	<author>Em Emalb</author>
	<datestamp>1267204680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'd recommend lubing the bottom of the floor mats so they do slide, that way you do have a requirement for the "firmware upgrade".</p><p>Sheesh.  The 10million lines of code have been in your car since before you bought it.  They didn't re-do all 10 million (or whatever the real number is) they change some that was faulty.</p><p>No worries man.</p><p>Get 'er done in the words of the "immortal" larry the cable guy.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd recommend lubing the bottom of the floor mats so they do slide , that way you do have a requirement for the " firmware upgrade " .Sheesh .
The 10million lines of code have been in your car since before you bought it .
They did n't re-do all 10 million ( or whatever the real number is ) they change some that was faulty.No worries man.Get 'er done in the words of the " immortal " larry the cable guy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd recommend lubing the bottom of the floor mats so they do slide, that way you do have a requirement for the "firmware upgrade".Sheesh.
The 10million lines of code have been in your car since before you bought it.
They didn't re-do all 10 million (or whatever the real number is) they change some that was faulty.No worries man.Get 'er done in the words of the "immortal" larry the cable guy.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288328</id>
	<title>Re:Power steering failure?</title>
	<author>clone53421</author>
	<datestamp>1267212120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>This braking system enhancement will automatically reduce engine power when the brake pedal and the accelerator pedal are applied simultaneously under certain driving conditions.</p></div></blockquote><p>...now calm down, it doesn&rsquo;t kill the engine.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>This braking system enhancement will automatically reduce engine power when the brake pedal and the accelerator pedal are applied simultaneously under certain driving conditions....now calm down , it doesn    t kill the engine .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This braking system enhancement will automatically reduce engine power when the brake pedal and the accelerator pedal are applied simultaneously under certain driving conditions....now calm down, it doesn’t kill the engine.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286612</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288738</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>Longstaff</author>
	<datestamp>1267213500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>I would add that the "floor mat" excuse always sounded like BS to me.</i> <br> <br>

There may have been more than one conclusion or actual root cause for the stuck accelerators. I can confirm that on one of my (non-Toyota) cars I have personally seen 2 different aftermarket floor mat styles slide forward and end up in a position that stuck the gas pedal down.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I would add that the " floor mat " excuse always sounded like BS to me .
There may have been more than one conclusion or actual root cause for the stuck accelerators .
I can confirm that on one of my ( non-Toyota ) cars I have personally seen 2 different aftermarket floor mat styles slide forward and end up in a position that stuck the gas pedal down .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would add that the "floor mat" excuse always sounded like BS to me.
There may have been more than one conclusion or actual root cause for the stuck accelerators.
I can confirm that on one of my (non-Toyota) cars I have personally seen 2 different aftermarket floor mat styles slide forward and end up in a position that stuck the gas pedal down.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287676</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286004</id>
	<title>Re:Take the update</title>
	<author>Shadyman</author>
	<datestamp>1267204620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This.

IANAL, but I'm guessing if you decline the update and end up crashing into someone because of the faulty software, that's going to be your fault

As far as updates go, the Updating-over-OBD2 is fairly foolproof.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This .
IANAL , but I 'm guessing if you decline the update and end up crashing into someone because of the faulty software , that 's going to be your fault As far as updates go , the Updating-over-OBD2 is fairly foolproof .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This.
IANAL, but I'm guessing if you decline the update and end up crashing into someone because of the faulty software, that's going to be your fault

As far as updates go, the Updating-over-OBD2 is fairly foolproof.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285936</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285998</id>
	<title>Not a Smart Move to Turn Down The Upgrade</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267204620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>IANAL, but if you refuse the software update and your car proceeds to have an accident caused by flaws in the old software, you'll have no legal recourse against Toyota for any deaths, injuries or property damages caused by the software malfunction.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>IANAL , but if you refuse the software update and your car proceeds to have an accident caused by flaws in the old software , you 'll have no legal recourse against Toyota for any deaths , injuries or property damages caused by the software malfunction .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>IANAL, but if you refuse the software update and your car proceeds to have an accident caused by flaws in the old software, you'll have no legal recourse against Toyota for any deaths, injuries or property damages caused by the software malfunction.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288406</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>markitect</author>
	<datestamp>1267212360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you think this is a bug your an idiot, since the invention of the car the brake has never overridden anything.  Do you think when you push the brake on a cable throttled car it somehow retracts?  Luckily the braking system can easily overpower the engine.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you think this is a bug your an idiot , since the invention of the car the brake has never overridden anything .
Do you think when you push the brake on a cable throttled car it somehow retracts ?
Luckily the braking system can easily overpower the engine .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you think this is a bug your an idiot, since the invention of the car the brake has never overridden anything.
Do you think when you push the brake on a cable throttled car it somehow retracts?
Luckily the braking system can easily overpower the engine.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286652</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285984</id>
	<title>Get the Flash</title>
	<author>nicholasjay</author>
	<datestamp>1267204560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There's a lot of cars that have the 'brake takes precedence' feature. The only real reason to not have such a feature is because of trail-braking or hell-toe shifting. Both are racing/performance driving techniques you won't be doing in your Camry. Plus, it is a pure software feature in that if it detects you braking, it will cut throttle. So there's no big issue there.</p><p>Also, cars have their computers updated all the time, and it has never been a big deal in the past. The Nissan GTR was the last example that made the news (to cut down on the RPM the launch control used). But really, cars are reflashed all the time. Its not a big deal.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's a lot of cars that have the 'brake takes precedence ' feature .
The only real reason to not have such a feature is because of trail-braking or hell-toe shifting .
Both are racing/performance driving techniques you wo n't be doing in your Camry .
Plus , it is a pure software feature in that if it detects you braking , it will cut throttle .
So there 's no big issue there.Also , cars have their computers updated all the time , and it has never been a big deal in the past .
The Nissan GTR was the last example that made the news ( to cut down on the RPM the launch control used ) .
But really , cars are reflashed all the time .
Its not a big deal .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's a lot of cars that have the 'brake takes precedence' feature.
The only real reason to not have such a feature is because of trail-braking or hell-toe shifting.
Both are racing/performance driving techniques you won't be doing in your Camry.
Plus, it is a pure software feature in that if it detects you braking, it will cut throttle.
So there's no big issue there.Also, cars have their computers updated all the time, and it has never been a big deal in the past.
The Nissan GTR was the last example that made the news (to cut down on the RPM the launch control used).
But really, cars are reflashed all the time.
Its not a big deal.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285994</id>
	<title>Re:Take the update</title>
	<author>Ltap</author>
	<datestamp>1267204620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I second this. It's also very possible that if you didn't take it and the existing software caused a crash, they might be able to claim that you can't sue them because you refused software updates.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I second this .
It 's also very possible that if you did n't take it and the existing software caused a crash , they might be able to claim that you ca n't sue them because you refused software updates .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I second this.
It's also very possible that if you didn't take it and the existing software caused a crash, they might be able to claim that you can't sue them because you refused software updates.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285936</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31300078</id>
	<title>Analogy</title>
	<author>MathiasRav</author>
	<datestamp>1267269480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Sorry, could you rephrase that with a car analogy?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... Oh, wait.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Sorry , could you rephrase that with a car analogy ?
... Oh , wait .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sorry, could you rephrase that with a car analogy?
... Oh, wait.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286028</id>
	<title>Go for it</title>
	<author>JLangbridge</author>
	<datestamp>1267204680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Technically, end users are told not to install firmware upgrades unless told to by a representative, to correct existing problems or dangers. Ok, so most geeks don't hesitate to flash mainboard BIOS chips, and in the worst case, the mainboard boots up form a secondary BIOS to reflash the primary. The point is, mainboard updates are there to correct small issues; memory latency, support for newer CPUs, etc etc. Most of the time, a firmware "bug" will just cause minor annoyances. A firmware "bug" on a car is, potentially, a killer. I know, I'm going to extremes, but the aeronautics industry has a different view on firmware updates. If a bug is found, if a new firmware comes out (passing all the tests), they flash it, end of story. If I were in the same situation, I'd accept any firmware update that comes from a manufacturer that affects critical components. If it only affects the CD player or the wipers, I wouldn't bother, but if it affected the brake pedal, I'd personally go for it. Yes, there are risks, but I still have confidence in a computer flying me with humans "suggesting" actions to a computer every time I fly an Airbus.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Technically , end users are told not to install firmware upgrades unless told to by a representative , to correct existing problems or dangers .
Ok , so most geeks do n't hesitate to flash mainboard BIOS chips , and in the worst case , the mainboard boots up form a secondary BIOS to reflash the primary .
The point is , mainboard updates are there to correct small issues ; memory latency , support for newer CPUs , etc etc .
Most of the time , a firmware " bug " will just cause minor annoyances .
A firmware " bug " on a car is , potentially , a killer .
I know , I 'm going to extremes , but the aeronautics industry has a different view on firmware updates .
If a bug is found , if a new firmware comes out ( passing all the tests ) , they flash it , end of story .
If I were in the same situation , I 'd accept any firmware update that comes from a manufacturer that affects critical components .
If it only affects the CD player or the wipers , I would n't bother , but if it affected the brake pedal , I 'd personally go for it .
Yes , there are risks , but I still have confidence in a computer flying me with humans " suggesting " actions to a computer every time I fly an Airbus .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Technically, end users are told not to install firmware upgrades unless told to by a representative, to correct existing problems or dangers.
Ok, so most geeks don't hesitate to flash mainboard BIOS chips, and in the worst case, the mainboard boots up form a secondary BIOS to reflash the primary.
The point is, mainboard updates are there to correct small issues; memory latency, support for newer CPUs, etc etc.
Most of the time, a firmware "bug" will just cause minor annoyances.
A firmware "bug" on a car is, potentially, a killer.
I know, I'm going to extremes, but the aeronautics industry has a different view on firmware updates.
If a bug is found, if a new firmware comes out (passing all the tests), they flash it, end of story.
If I were in the same situation, I'd accept any firmware update that comes from a manufacturer that affects critical components.
If it only affects the CD player or the wipers, I wouldn't bother, but if it affected the brake pedal, I'd personally go for it.
Yes, there are risks, but I still have confidence in a computer flying me with humans "suggesting" actions to a computer every time I fly an Airbus.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31289818</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>recharged95</author>
	<datestamp>1267174980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You obviously haven't seen a Ford Focus key ignition. I can pull that key out while it's in accessory mode. Key locks nowadays are cheap, and just as bad.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You obviously have n't seen a Ford Focus key ignition .
I can pull that key out while it 's in accessory mode .
Key locks nowadays are cheap , and just as bad .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You obviously haven't seen a Ford Focus key ignition.
I can pull that key out while it's in accessory mode.
Key locks nowadays are cheap, and just as bad.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288360</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285912</id>
	<title>You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267204320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You already took the 100 million lines of code when you bought the car.</p><p>Now do you want the bug fixes, or would you rather find out what a "fatal exception" means in more physical terms?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You already took the 100 million lines of code when you bought the car.Now do you want the bug fixes , or would you rather find out what a " fatal exception " means in more physical terms ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You already took the 100 million lines of code when you bought the car.Now do you want the bug fixes, or would you rather find out what a "fatal exception" means in more physical terms?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288036</id>
	<title>Re:Both pedals?</title>
	<author>Kymermosst</author>
	<datestamp>1267211160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah back when I was driving an original Volkswagen beetle.</p><p>Not since I've been driving cars newer than, say, 1984.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah back when I was driving an original Volkswagen beetle.Not since I 've been driving cars newer than , say , 1984 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah back when I was driving an original Volkswagen beetle.Not since I've been driving cars newer than, say, 1984.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286292</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286612</id>
	<title>Power steering failure?</title>
	<author>SlashD0tter</author>
	<datestamp>1267206480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Might be a little worrisome if the new code kills the engine and the power steering "power" at the same time?

I'm sure they've thought of this, right?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Might be a little worrisome if the new code kills the engine and the power steering " power " at the same time ?
I 'm sure they 've thought of this , right ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Might be a little worrisome if the new code kills the engine and the power steering "power" at the same time?
I'm sure they've thought of this, right?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287152</id>
	<title>Nice fact free sound bite</title>
	<author>sjbe</author>
	<datestamp>1267208220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Take a look at the statistics for death causes for people under 60, and you will find almost everyone who doesn't die old dies in a car.</p></div><p> <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Causes\_of\_death\_by\_age\_group\_(percent).png" title="wikipedia.org">Nonsense.</a> [wikipedia.org]  Yes, motor vehicle accidents are the leading cause of death in the US for those between the ages of 15 and 34 (peaking at around 1 out of 3 deaths for the 15-24 age group) but it is nowhere close to "almost everyone" no matter what age group you choose.  But don't let actual data get in the way of a good sound bite.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Look at what wasted labor there is in society, and you will find that producing and maintaining one high-price high-waste transportation system per citizen is quite a bit of work when horses managed do to better than that quite some time ago...</p></div><p>If horses were actually more efficient economically, we would still be using horses.  If you think horses are cheap as a means of transportation, you clearly have never tried to use them.  Yes there is a cost to modern infrastructure but there is a bigger (economic) cost to lacking it.  The biggest obstacle to the growth of many nations (India is a good example) is a poor quality road infrastructure.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>not to mention electricity and electric computer system transport. And PRT more recently.</p> </div><p>You think a PRT is seriously a solution which makes sense for more than a few high density urban areas? Nice for airports but it isn't going to be much use on a farm.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Then read about pollution, and oil wars.</p></div><p>Yep, there is a downside to fossil fuels.  Fossil fuels have serious problems in need of serious solutions.  However there is a huge upside too which I note you are conveniently forgetting.  I'd also like you to point out the magical technology you think will eliminate pollution.  Solar and wind come closest but even they pollute.  (you didn't think the steel in that turbine came without an environmental cost did you?)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Take a look at the statistics for death causes for people under 60 , and you will find almost everyone who does n't die old dies in a car .
Nonsense. [ wikipedia.org ] Yes , motor vehicle accidents are the leading cause of death in the US for those between the ages of 15 and 34 ( peaking at around 1 out of 3 deaths for the 15-24 age group ) but it is nowhere close to " almost everyone " no matter what age group you choose .
But do n't let actual data get in the way of a good sound bite.Look at what wasted labor there is in society , and you will find that producing and maintaining one high-price high-waste transportation system per citizen is quite a bit of work when horses managed do to better than that quite some time ago...If horses were actually more efficient economically , we would still be using horses .
If you think horses are cheap as a means of transportation , you clearly have never tried to use them .
Yes there is a cost to modern infrastructure but there is a bigger ( economic ) cost to lacking it .
The biggest obstacle to the growth of many nations ( India is a good example ) is a poor quality road infrastructure.not to mention electricity and electric computer system transport .
And PRT more recently .
You think a PRT is seriously a solution which makes sense for more than a few high density urban areas ?
Nice for airports but it is n't going to be much use on a farm.Then read about pollution , and oil wars.Yep , there is a downside to fossil fuels .
Fossil fuels have serious problems in need of serious solutions .
However there is a huge upside too which I note you are conveniently forgetting .
I 'd also like you to point out the magical technology you think will eliminate pollution .
Solar and wind come closest but even they pollute .
( you did n't think the steel in that turbine came without an environmental cost did you ?
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Take a look at the statistics for death causes for people under 60, and you will find almost everyone who doesn't die old dies in a car.
Nonsense. [wikipedia.org]  Yes, motor vehicle accidents are the leading cause of death in the US for those between the ages of 15 and 34 (peaking at around 1 out of 3 deaths for the 15-24 age group) but it is nowhere close to "almost everyone" no matter what age group you choose.
But don't let actual data get in the way of a good sound bite.Look at what wasted labor there is in society, and you will find that producing and maintaining one high-price high-waste transportation system per citizen is quite a bit of work when horses managed do to better than that quite some time ago...If horses were actually more efficient economically, we would still be using horses.
If you think horses are cheap as a means of transportation, you clearly have never tried to use them.
Yes there is a cost to modern infrastructure but there is a bigger (economic) cost to lacking it.
The biggest obstacle to the growth of many nations (India is a good example) is a poor quality road infrastructure.not to mention electricity and electric computer system transport.
And PRT more recently.
You think a PRT is seriously a solution which makes sense for more than a few high density urban areas?
Nice for airports but it isn't going to be much use on a farm.Then read about pollution, and oil wars.Yep, there is a downside to fossil fuels.
Fossil fuels have serious problems in need of serious solutions.
However there is a huge upside too which I note you are conveniently forgetting.
I'd also like you to point out the magical technology you think will eliminate pollution.
Solar and wind come closest but even they pollute.
(you didn't think the steel in that turbine came without an environmental cost did you?
)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286106</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286082</id>
	<title>Jane, you ignorant slut...</title>
	<author>HotNeedleOfInquiry</author>
	<datestamp>1267204860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>In the computer world, we're all taught to install firmware updates only if there is a real problem because a large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardware or cause other unforeseen consequences. </i> <br> <br>

Nobody taught you that.  You pulled it out of your ass so you'd sound officious and get a post on<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/.  <br> <br>

The vast majority of firmware updates work, fix problems and don't brick devices.  Much more of this shit that gets by as posts and I'll be begging for Jon Katz to come back.</htmltext>
<tokenext>In the computer world , we 're all taught to install firmware updates only if there is a real problem because a large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardware or cause other unforeseen consequences .
Nobody taught you that .
You pulled it out of your ass so you 'd sound officious and get a post on / .
The vast majority of firmware updates work , fix problems and do n't brick devices .
Much more of this shit that gets by as posts and I 'll be begging for Jon Katz to come back .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In the computer world, we're all taught to install firmware updates only if there is a real problem because a large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardware or cause other unforeseen consequences.
Nobody taught you that.
You pulled it out of your ass so you'd sound officious and get a post on /.
The vast majority of firmware updates work, fix problems and don't brick devices.
Much more of this shit that gets by as posts and I'll be begging for Jon Katz to come back.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288114</id>
	<title>Re:Take the subway - or campaign for one to exist.</title>
	<author>sjames</author>
	<datestamp>1267211400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><nobr> <wbr></nobr></p><div class="quote"><p>...per citizen is quite a bit of work when horses managed do to better than that quite some time ago...</p></div><p>But transportation related pollution is felt much more viscerally when you step in it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>...per citizen is quite a bit of work when horses managed do to better than that quite some time ago...But transportation related pollution is felt much more viscerally when you step in it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> ...per citizen is quite a bit of work when horses managed do to better than that quite some time ago...But transportation related pollution is felt much more viscerally when you step in it.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286106</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285936</id>
	<title>Take the update</title>
	<author>FrYGuY101</author>
	<datestamp>1267204440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>If it bricks, the Dealer's going to be the one who has to replace it. As far as I look at it, it's zero risk, financially.<br>
<br>
Safety wise, it fixes a known bug.<br>
<br>
Take the update.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If it bricks , the Dealer 's going to be the one who has to replace it .
As far as I look at it , it 's zero risk , financially .
Safety wise , it fixes a known bug .
Take the update .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If it bricks, the Dealer's going to be the one who has to replace it.
As far as I look at it, it's zero risk, financially.
Safety wise, it fixes a known bug.
Take the update.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286092</id>
	<title>no shortage of reckless idiots</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267204920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So based on vague general principles without any specific knowledge of the engineering issues involved you are refusing to install a manufacturer recommended safety fix. In an accident situation this is arguably evidence of a reckless disregard for human life. Good luck with your insurance company.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So based on vague general principles without any specific knowledge of the engineering issues involved you are refusing to install a manufacturer recommended safety fix .
In an accident situation this is arguably evidence of a reckless disregard for human life .
Good luck with your insurance company .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So based on vague general principles without any specific knowledge of the engineering issues involved you are refusing to install a manufacturer recommended safety fix.
In an accident situation this is arguably evidence of a reckless disregard for human life.
Good luck with your insurance company.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285992</id>
	<title>That is a stupid question!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267204560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>First off, no firmware should be between you, the engine and/or the break.  That's just ridiculous.  Second, the firmware update isn't for the floor mat problem.  How would that even make sense?  It's because the firmware is faulty to begin with and can cause the accelerator to STUCK FULLY PRESSED.  Yes, you want this for your death machine.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>First off , no firmware should be between you , the engine and/or the break .
That 's just ridiculous .
Second , the firmware update is n't for the floor mat problem .
How would that even make sense ?
It 's because the firmware is faulty to begin with and can cause the accelerator to STUCK FULLY PRESSED .
Yes , you want this for your death machine .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First off, no firmware should be between you, the engine and/or the break.
That's just ridiculous.
Second, the firmware update isn't for the floor mat problem.
How would that even make sense?
It's because the firmware is faulty to begin with and can cause the accelerator to STUCK FULLY PRESSED.
Yes, you want this for your death machine.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31290060</id>
	<title>Don't do it!!!!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267176300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You won't be able to jailbreak/unlock your gas pedal!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You wo n't be able to jailbreak/unlock your gas pedal !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You won't be able to jailbreak/unlock your gas pedal!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286852</id>
	<title>eventually everything needs a software update</title>
	<author>Ruin666</author>
	<datestamp>1267207200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>do you update your pc software when your os or driver software demands or not? if yes then update your car cause a car crash is alot more hazerdous than a personal computer crashes</htmltext>
<tokenext>do you update your pc software when your os or driver software demands or not ?
if yes then update your car cause a car crash is alot more hazerdous than a personal computer crashes</tokentext>
<sentencetext>do you update your pc software when your os or driver software demands or not?
if yes then update your car cause a car crash is alot more hazerdous than a personal computer crashes</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287868</id>
	<title>Re:Their new slogan</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267210620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A small engine fire is a lot different than a car careening out of control.  To my knowledge, nobody has been killed by a defective cruise control in the recall you mentioned.</p><p>Don't lash out because you got a "quality" Toyota.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A small engine fire is a lot different than a car careening out of control .
To my knowledge , nobody has been killed by a defective cruise control in the recall you mentioned.Do n't lash out because you got a " quality " Toyota .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A small engine fire is a lot different than a car careening out of control.
To my knowledge, nobody has been killed by a defective cruise control in the recall you mentioned.Don't lash out because you got a "quality" Toyota.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286232</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31323100</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>Cro Magnon</author>
	<datestamp>1267441920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Of course, if your car ever does go into hyperdrive, you'll probably be several light-years away by the time you can hit the kill switch, and you'll have hard vacuum to cope with (assuming you haven't passed right through the core of a nearby star or planet).</p></div></blockquote><p>That's why I drive with the windows shut, to keep the air inside in case my car goes into deep space.  Though you do have a point about the collisions with stars/planets.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Of course , if your car ever does go into hyperdrive , you 'll probably be several light-years away by the time you can hit the kill switch , and you 'll have hard vacuum to cope with ( assuming you have n't passed right through the core of a nearby star or planet ) .That 's why I drive with the windows shut , to keep the air inside in case my car goes into deep space .
Though you do have a point about the collisions with stars/planets .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Of course, if your car ever does go into hyperdrive, you'll probably be several light-years away by the time you can hit the kill switch, and you'll have hard vacuum to cope with (assuming you haven't passed right through the core of a nearby star or planet).That's why I drive with the windows shut, to keep the air inside in case my car goes into deep space.
Though you do have a point about the collisions with stars/planets.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288604</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288984</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>Golddess</author>
	<datestamp>1267214520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Maybe in these instances it was BS, but I can state from personal experience that my floor mat would work its way up and under the pedals over time.  Now whether that's Toyota's fault... I don't know.  It feels weird to say it's the manufacturers fault if a friggin <i>floor mat</i> gets in the way of the pedals, but at the same time, if they were the ones to put it in the vehicle, and it wasn't secured properly so as to not move from normal everyday use...</htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe in these instances it was BS , but I can state from personal experience that my floor mat would work its way up and under the pedals over time .
Now whether that 's Toyota 's fault... I do n't know .
It feels weird to say it 's the manufacturers fault if a friggin floor mat gets in the way of the pedals , but at the same time , if they were the ones to put it in the vehicle , and it was n't secured properly so as to not move from normal everyday use.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe in these instances it was BS, but I can state from personal experience that my floor mat would work its way up and under the pedals over time.
Now whether that's Toyota's fault... I don't know.
It feels weird to say it's the manufacturers fault if a friggin floor mat gets in the way of the pedals, but at the same time, if they were the ones to put it in the vehicle, and it wasn't secured properly so as to not move from normal everyday use...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287676</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31290612</id>
	<title>Re:Crap! That sucks!</title>
	<author>DerekLyons</author>
	<datestamp>1267178760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Drive By Wire in itself is a bit stupid idea<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... Servos break more easily tha hydraulic cylinders or legs. Electric connections get loose easier than hydraulic sealings start to leak. Nevermind the lost feeling of brake, gas and clutch pedals.</p></div></blockquote><p>We, the US Navy, have been driving submarines by wire for decades - and hydraulics are by far more troublesome than the electronic/electrical portions of the system.  (And hydraulics require orders of magnitude more maintenance to boot.)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Drive By Wire in itself is a bit stupid idea ... Servos break more easily tha hydraulic cylinders or legs .
Electric connections get loose easier than hydraulic sealings start to leak .
Nevermind the lost feeling of brake , gas and clutch pedals.We , the US Navy , have been driving submarines by wire for decades - and hydraulics are by far more troublesome than the electronic/electrical portions of the system .
( And hydraulics require orders of magnitude more maintenance to boot .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Drive By Wire in itself is a bit stupid idea ... Servos break more easily tha hydraulic cylinders or legs.
Electric connections get loose easier than hydraulic sealings start to leak.
Nevermind the lost feeling of brake, gas and clutch pedals.We, the US Navy, have been driving submarines by wire for decades - and hydraulics are by far more troublesome than the electronic/electrical portions of the system.
(And hydraulics require orders of magnitude more maintenance to boot.
)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286794</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31290070</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>ncc74656</author>
	<datestamp>1267176300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Push-button ignition can be turned off by holding down the button (kind of like with a computer).</p></div></blockquote><p>You can cover a lot of ground in four seconds at freeway speeds.  (410' at 70 mph, to be precise...close to a tenth of a mile.)  Which would you rather have: turn a key and kill the engine right away, or hold down a button for several seconds while your car accelerates out of control?  Push-button ignition sounds like a useless, unnecessary complication of something that's best kept simple.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Push-button ignition can be turned off by holding down the button ( kind of like with a computer ) .You can cover a lot of ground in four seconds at freeway speeds .
( 410 ' at 70 mph , to be precise...close to a tenth of a mile .
) Which would you rather have : turn a key and kill the engine right away , or hold down a button for several seconds while your car accelerates out of control ?
Push-button ignition sounds like a useless , unnecessary complication of something that 's best kept simple .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Push-button ignition can be turned off by holding down the button (kind of like with a computer).You can cover a lot of ground in four seconds at freeway speeds.
(410' at 70 mph, to be precise...close to a tenth of a mile.
)  Which would you rather have: turn a key and kill the engine right away, or hold down a button for several seconds while your car accelerates out of control?
Push-button ignition sounds like a useless, unnecessary complication of something that's best kept simple.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288706</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286862</id>
	<title>God Damn Mother Fucking Toyota</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267207260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I hate toyotas and their drivers.  They drive slow.  The drivers do not use turn signals and talk on the cell phone.  If the turning signal is used, it stays on for miles-on-end. When it rains here in Florida, they put the hazards on -- perfect now I don't know when you're coming into my lane!  Get the fuck away you god damn toyota I tell them.</p><p>God Damn Mother Fucking Toyotas...and Over Priced Toyotas (Lexus -- all made in the same factory).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I hate toyotas and their drivers .
They drive slow .
The drivers do not use turn signals and talk on the cell phone .
If the turning signal is used , it stays on for miles-on-end .
When it rains here in Florida , they put the hazards on -- perfect now I do n't know when you 're coming into my lane !
Get the fuck away you god damn toyota I tell them.God Damn Mother Fucking Toyotas...and Over Priced Toyotas ( Lexus -- all made in the same factory ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I hate toyotas and their drivers.
They drive slow.
The drivers do not use turn signals and talk on the cell phone.
If the turning signal is used, it stays on for miles-on-end.
When it rains here in Florida, they put the hazards on -- perfect now I don't know when you're coming into my lane!
Get the fuck away you god damn toyota I tell them.God Damn Mother Fucking Toyotas...and Over Priced Toyotas (Lexus -- all made in the same factory).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31291230</id>
	<title>Re:Seriously?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267181940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm not familiar with that particular one, but several of the stories sound a lot like the driver did not do what they think/claim they did.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not familiar with that particular one , but several of the stories sound a lot like the driver did not do what they think/claim they did .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not familiar with that particular one, but several of the stories sound a lot like the driver did not do what they think/claim they did.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287246</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286966</id>
	<title>Bad premise....</title>
	<author>ewenix</author>
	<datestamp>1267207560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>In the computer world, we're all taught to install firmware updates only if there is a real problem because a large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardware or cause other unforeseen consequences.</p> </div><p>
I take issue with your basic premise that firmware updates are bad.<br>
Blades, blade chassis, SAN, tape library, etc.  When there is a problem one of the top 10 questions will be "Is your firmware up to date?"<br>
I regularly update firmware as hardware moves through it's lifecycle.  The one exception I have is on some Raritan IP KVMs, where the<br>
manufacturer advised me not to update the firmware unless I'm having an issue.  But again that is the exception, not the rule.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>In the computer world , we 're all taught to install firmware updates only if there is a real problem because a large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardware or cause other unforeseen consequences .
I take issue with your basic premise that firmware updates are bad .
Blades , blade chassis , SAN , tape library , etc .
When there is a problem one of the top 10 questions will be " Is your firmware up to date ?
" I regularly update firmware as hardware moves through it 's lifecycle .
The one exception I have is on some Raritan IP KVMs , where the manufacturer advised me not to update the firmware unless I 'm having an issue .
But again that is the exception , not the rule .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In the computer world, we're all taught to install firmware updates only if there is a real problem because a large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardware or cause other unforeseen consequences.
I take issue with your basic premise that firmware updates are bad.
Blades, blade chassis, SAN, tape library, etc.
When there is a problem one of the top 10 questions will be "Is your firmware up to date?
"
I regularly update firmware as hardware moves through it's lifecycle.
The one exception I have is on some Raritan IP KVMs, where the
manufacturer advised me not to update the firmware unless I'm having an issue.
But again that is the exception, not the rule.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288604</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>clone53421</author>
	<datestamp>1267212960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>If my car ever goes into hyperdrive because of a stuck throttle, I take comfort in knowing I still have a kill switch, and I grew up driving tractors and cars without power steering or power-assist braking, so I can cope.</p></div><p>Of course, if your car ever <em>does</em> go into hyperdrive, you&rsquo;ll probably be several light-years away by the time you can hit the kill switch, and you&rsquo;ll have hard vacuum to cope with (assuming you haven&rsquo;t passed right through the core of a nearby star or planet).</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If my car ever goes into hyperdrive because of a stuck throttle , I take comfort in knowing I still have a kill switch , and I grew up driving tractors and cars without power steering or power-assist braking , so I can cope.Of course , if your car ever does go into hyperdrive , you    ll probably be several light-years away by the time you can hit the kill switch , and you    ll have hard vacuum to cope with ( assuming you haven    t passed right through the core of a nearby star or planet ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If my car ever goes into hyperdrive because of a stuck throttle, I take comfort in knowing I still have a kill switch, and I grew up driving tractors and cars without power steering or power-assist braking, so I can cope.Of course, if your car ever does go into hyperdrive, you’ll probably be several light-years away by the time you can hit the kill switch, and you’ll have hard vacuum to cope with (assuming you haven’t passed right through the core of a nearby star or planet).
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288360</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287114</id>
	<title>You are not alone</title>
	<author>The Abused Developer</author>
	<datestamp>1267208040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><a href="http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1564476&amp;cid=31286192" title="slashdot.org" rel="nofollow">http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1564476&amp;cid=31286192</a> [slashdot.org]

just that we are too few and the others are too many<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-); also, the *many* ones give no shit on your long term vision or risk assessment 'cause they can't grasp it - literally;
this is the perfect blend for continuing the status quo of the energy*car&amp;war industry. The blend can brake only when the variable 'the *many* ones' will gets changed to be defined
by individuals having a different thinking pattern. are you betting on seeing this change? me not,</htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl ? sid = 1564476&amp;cid = 31286192 [ slashdot.org ] just that we are too few and the others are too many : - ) ; also , the * many * ones give no shit on your long term vision or risk assessment 'cause they ca n't grasp it - literally ; this is the perfect blend for continuing the status quo of the energy * car&amp;war industry .
The blend can brake only when the variable 'the * many * ones ' will gets changed to be defined by individuals having a different thinking pattern .
are you betting on seeing this change ?
me not,</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1564476&amp;cid=31286192 [slashdot.org]

just that we are too few and the others are too many :-); also, the *many* ones give no shit on your long term vision or risk assessment 'cause they can't grasp it - literally;
this is the perfect blend for continuing the status quo of the energy*car&amp;war industry.
The blend can brake only when the variable 'the *many* ones' will gets changed to be defined
by individuals having a different thinking pattern.
are you betting on seeing this change?
me not,</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286106</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286384</id>
	<title>Firmware policies</title>
	<author>plagace</author>
	<datestamp>1267205760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>"In the computer world, we're all taught to install firmware updates only if there is a real problem [...]"

This is the best way to have a lot of problems.

Let see this scenario.
A system is in production since 3 years, never got any firmware updates. Someday, a raid controller breaks. A service call is open to get a replacement part. Of course, the replacement part has been flashed with the latest firmware level from the manufacturer. Try to install the new controller, failed. Why? Because the firmware level of the motherboard is too old. Result? You have to upgrade your firmware level in a catastrophic situation where you can't perform a lot of test/validation.

Here are the policies I&rsquo;ve put in place.
Rule #1) Firmware must never get older than 1 year except if it's the latest stable available (this ensure we never have catastrophic updates to do in a critical situation because we are never "Too old")
Rule #2) Firmware must never be installed in the first month of its release (this leave time to the manufacturer to publish fixes in case of a major problem in the firmware).

Keep in mind that in case of hardware failure, you may have to be at a recent firmware level. You can decide if you do the update in a proactive manner or in the middle of a major outage.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" In the computer world , we 're all taught to install firmware updates only if there is a real problem [ ... ] " This is the best way to have a lot of problems .
Let see this scenario .
A system is in production since 3 years , never got any firmware updates .
Someday , a raid controller breaks .
A service call is open to get a replacement part .
Of course , the replacement part has been flashed with the latest firmware level from the manufacturer .
Try to install the new controller , failed .
Why ? Because the firmware level of the motherboard is too old .
Result ? You have to upgrade your firmware level in a catastrophic situation where you ca n't perform a lot of test/validation .
Here are the policies I    ve put in place .
Rule # 1 ) Firmware must never get older than 1 year except if it 's the latest stable available ( this ensure we never have catastrophic updates to do in a critical situation because we are never " Too old " ) Rule # 2 ) Firmware must never be installed in the first month of its release ( this leave time to the manufacturer to publish fixes in case of a major problem in the firmware ) .
Keep in mind that in case of hardware failure , you may have to be at a recent firmware level .
You can decide if you do the update in a proactive manner or in the middle of a major outage .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"In the computer world, we're all taught to install firmware updates only if there is a real problem [...]"

This is the best way to have a lot of problems.
Let see this scenario.
A system is in production since 3 years, never got any firmware updates.
Someday, a raid controller breaks.
A service call is open to get a replacement part.
Of course, the replacement part has been flashed with the latest firmware level from the manufacturer.
Try to install the new controller, failed.
Why? Because the firmware level of the motherboard is too old.
Result? You have to upgrade your firmware level in a catastrophic situation where you can't perform a lot of test/validation.
Here are the policies I’ve put in place.
Rule #1) Firmware must never get older than 1 year except if it's the latest stable available (this ensure we never have catastrophic updates to do in a critical situation because we are never "Too old")
Rule #2) Firmware must never be installed in the first month of its release (this leave time to the manufacturer to publish fixes in case of a major problem in the firmware).
Keep in mind that in case of hardware failure, you may have to be at a recent firmware level.
You can decide if you do the update in a proactive manner or in the middle of a major outage.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31289226</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>mcgrew</author>
	<datestamp>1267215360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Indeed. The biggest difference between automotive software and software you install on your PC is that the automotive software is covered by warantee, unlike PC software.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Indeed .
The biggest difference between automotive software and software you install on your PC is that the automotive software is covered by warantee , unlike PC software .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Indeed.
The biggest difference between automotive software and software you install on your PC is that the automotive software is covered by warantee, unlike PC software.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286652</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287286</id>
	<title>Cars are computers with wheels</title>
	<author>sjbe</author>
	<datestamp>1267208640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Even in the most modern car, I find this hard to believe, unless you include the entertainment/nav system in the count.</p></div><p>I'd suggest that it probably isn't terribly shocking.  The amount of electronics in a modern car is pretty impressive.  There are dozens (sometimes hundreds) of sensors, drive by wire, diagnostics systems, engine control, ABS, traction control, and much more.  Frankly diagnostics these days almost requires a OBD-II scanner.  All of this without even getting into the climate controls, entertainment systems and other stuff for fun and comfort.</p><p>Bear in mind that this explosion in electronics is a relatively recent thing.  Cars even 15 years ago had FAR less electronics than today's cars.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Even in the most modern car , I find this hard to believe , unless you include the entertainment/nav system in the count.I 'd suggest that it probably is n't terribly shocking .
The amount of electronics in a modern car is pretty impressive .
There are dozens ( sometimes hundreds ) of sensors , drive by wire , diagnostics systems , engine control , ABS , traction control , and much more .
Frankly diagnostics these days almost requires a OBD-II scanner .
All of this without even getting into the climate controls , entertainment systems and other stuff for fun and comfort.Bear in mind that this explosion in electronics is a relatively recent thing .
Cars even 15 years ago had FAR less electronics than today 's cars .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Even in the most modern car, I find this hard to believe, unless you include the entertainment/nav system in the count.I'd suggest that it probably isn't terribly shocking.
The amount of electronics in a modern car is pretty impressive.
There are dozens (sometimes hundreds) of sensors, drive by wire, diagnostics systems, engine control, ABS, traction control, and much more.
Frankly diagnostics these days almost requires a OBD-II scanner.
All of this without even getting into the climate controls, entertainment systems and other stuff for fun and comfort.Bear in mind that this explosion in electronics is a relatively recent thing.
Cars even 15 years ago had FAR less electronics than today's cars.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286118</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286732</id>
	<title>Just try using one on a hill!  Re:1st bug found</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267206900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No.<br>What he is saying is that the next time some Toyota owner parks on the slope of a hill, with the car facing the upward direction, he is going to have fun.<br>Or better yet, the next time some Toyota owner stops at a traffic light on the slope of a hill, with the car facing the upward direction, he is going to have even more fun.</p><p>He has to release the brake for 1 to 2 seconds so that the car recognizes the brake pedal has been released before it allows the Gas pedal to apply any acceleration to the engine when you start moving.</p><p>During that 1 to 2 seconds before the car allows your engine and transmission to push the car upward against a little thing called gravity, it should only uncontrollably roll backwards a short distance before it impacts the car in the lane or immediate area directly behind him, or whatever is behind him (pedistrian, his garage door, garbage cans, fences or half a billion objects he had not desire or want to damage)<br>( oh wait was that a little old lady or mother with an infant in a stroller two cars back trying to walk between the cars to get to the driver side you just pushed a vehicle into, crushing them?)</p><p>Good luck Toyota Owners in San Francisco and Seattle, as well any city or suburb or road with a hill or sloping roadway.</p><p>Hey can we apply that well thought out solution to Dump Trucks and Garbage trucks as well?<br>I mean the solution comes from a car manufacturer, so it must have been test, as much as it has been thought out?  (ha ha ha ha) 8-)</p><p>Good luck trying to sell your used Toyota, by the way I have some swamp land you can market for me.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No.What he is saying is that the next time some Toyota owner parks on the slope of a hill , with the car facing the upward direction , he is going to have fun.Or better yet , the next time some Toyota owner stops at a traffic light on the slope of a hill , with the car facing the upward direction , he is going to have even more fun.He has to release the brake for 1 to 2 seconds so that the car recognizes the brake pedal has been released before it allows the Gas pedal to apply any acceleration to the engine when you start moving.During that 1 to 2 seconds before the car allows your engine and transmission to push the car upward against a little thing called gravity , it should only uncontrollably roll backwards a short distance before it impacts the car in the lane or immediate area directly behind him , or whatever is behind him ( pedistrian , his garage door , garbage cans , fences or half a billion objects he had not desire or want to damage ) ( oh wait was that a little old lady or mother with an infant in a stroller two cars back trying to walk between the cars to get to the driver side you just pushed a vehicle into , crushing them ?
) Good luck Toyota Owners in San Francisco and Seattle , as well any city or suburb or road with a hill or sloping roadway.Hey can we apply that well thought out solution to Dump Trucks and Garbage trucks as well ? I mean the solution comes from a car manufacturer , so it must have been test , as much as it has been thought out ?
( ha ha ha ha ) 8- ) Good luck trying to sell your used Toyota , by the way I have some swamp land you can market for me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No.What he is saying is that the next time some Toyota owner parks on the slope of a hill, with the car facing the upward direction, he is going to have fun.Or better yet, the next time some Toyota owner stops at a traffic light on the slope of a hill, with the car facing the upward direction, he is going to have even more fun.He has to release the brake for 1 to 2 seconds so that the car recognizes the brake pedal has been released before it allows the Gas pedal to apply any acceleration to the engine when you start moving.During that 1 to 2 seconds before the car allows your engine and transmission to push the car upward against a little thing called gravity, it should only uncontrollably roll backwards a short distance before it impacts the car in the lane or immediate area directly behind him, or whatever is behind him (pedistrian, his garage door, garbage cans, fences or half a billion objects he had not desire or want to damage)( oh wait was that a little old lady or mother with an infant in a stroller two cars back trying to walk between the cars to get to the driver side you just pushed a vehicle into, crushing them?
)Good luck Toyota Owners in San Francisco and Seattle, as well any city or suburb or road with a hill or sloping roadway.Hey can we apply that well thought out solution to Dump Trucks and Garbage trucks as well?I mean the solution comes from a car manufacturer, so it must have been test, as much as it has been thought out?
(ha ha ha ha) 8-)Good luck trying to sell your used Toyota, by the way I have some swamp land you can market for me.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285982</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286192</id>
	<title>Welcome to the world of BSDs of computerized cars</title>
	<author>The Abused Developer</author>
	<datestamp>1267205160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Ha, I'm not surprised; this is the result of a bogus, old-dated paradigm we submitted to for the sake of backward compatibility - the processing model based on state management.
Everybody knows that when the system passes a certain level of complexity it becomes unstable and highly unpredictable because its state management becomes much more harder than
the programmers can handle without errors - thanks Turing<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)!  So, expect to see more and more BSDs while driving your new, smart, highly expensive and highly inefficient and useless toy.
Maybe this will be another good case for refresh and start thinking from the core how we deal in our society with the dependencies on a system which is proven unsustainable<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... and becomes
deadly dangerous.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Ha , I 'm not surprised ; this is the result of a bogus , old-dated paradigm we submitted to for the sake of backward compatibility - the processing model based on state management .
Everybody knows that when the system passes a certain level of complexity it becomes unstable and highly unpredictable because its state management becomes much more harder than the programmers can handle without errors - thanks Turing : - ) !
So , expect to see more and more BSDs while driving your new , smart , highly expensive and highly inefficient and useless toy .
Maybe this will be another good case for refresh and start thinking from the core how we deal in our society with the dependencies on a system which is proven unsustainable ... and becomes deadly dangerous .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ha, I'm not surprised; this is the result of a bogus, old-dated paradigm we submitted to for the sake of backward compatibility - the processing model based on state management.
Everybody knows that when the system passes a certain level of complexity it becomes unstable and highly unpredictable because its state management becomes much more harder than
the programmers can handle without errors - thanks Turing :-)!
So, expect to see more and more BSDs while driving your new, smart, highly expensive and highly inefficient and useless toy.
Maybe this will be another good case for refresh and start thinking from the core how we deal in our society with the dependencies on a system which is proven unsustainable ... and becomes
deadly dangerous.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286976</id>
	<title>Cut power from the engine ...</title>
	<author>frogzilla</author>
	<datestamp>1267207620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would imagine that you would want to cut (most of the) power from the engine in the event that both the brake and gas pedals are pressed.  Cutting power to the engine doesn't make sense to me as the engine should stay running to help with power-assisted steering and braking.  Probably I'm making too much of this.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would imagine that you would want to cut ( most of the ) power from the engine in the event that both the brake and gas pedals are pressed .
Cutting power to the engine does n't make sense to me as the engine should stay running to help with power-assisted steering and braking .
Probably I 'm making too much of this .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would imagine that you would want to cut (most of the) power from the engine in the event that both the brake and gas pedals are pressed.
Cutting power to the engine doesn't make sense to me as the engine should stay running to help with power-assisted steering and braking.
Probably I'm making too much of this.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286882</id>
	<title>That Depends</title>
	<author>jalefkowit</author>
	<datestamp>1267207320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>How much do you like not being dead?</htmltext>
<tokenext>How much do you like not being dead ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How much do you like not being dead?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286972</id>
	<title>That's crazy talk man!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267207560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>An update to "cause 'the brake pedal to take precedence over the gas pedal if both were pressed'"?<br>How then would I be able to:</p><p>- Practice fst brake pedal pressing<br>- Exercise my feet muscles<br>- Stretch my legs<br>- Scrape mud off my shoe<br>- Get confused in one leg and not the other<br>- Pretend to be a tap dancer</p><p>while driving down the highway at 80mph?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>An update to " cause 'the brake pedal to take precedence over the gas pedal if both were pressed ' " ? How then would I be able to : - Practice fst brake pedal pressing- Exercise my feet muscles- Stretch my legs- Scrape mud off my shoe- Get confused in one leg and not the other- Pretend to be a tap dancerwhile driving down the highway at 80mph ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>An update to "cause 'the brake pedal to take precedence over the gas pedal if both were pressed'"?How then would I be able to:- Practice fst brake pedal pressing- Exercise my feet muscles- Stretch my legs- Scrape mud off my shoe- Get confused in one leg and not the other- Pretend to be a tap dancerwhile driving down the highway at 80mph?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31309850</id>
	<title>Glue</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267359720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Here is an idea. Stop the floor mat sliding around by 1 throwing it our or 2 glueing it down. No firmware required and it takes 5 minutes.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Here is an idea .
Stop the floor mat sliding around by 1 throwing it our or 2 glueing it down .
No firmware required and it takes 5 minutes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here is an idea.
Stop the floor mat sliding around by 1 throwing it our or 2 glueing it down.
No firmware required and it takes 5 minutes.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286292</id>
	<title>Both pedals?</title>
	<author>CAFED00D</author>
	<datestamp>1267205460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Has anyone here, besides me, ever run into a situation where you actually *need* to press both pedals?  Crappy gas?  Or change in ambient temperature, and suddenly your idle setting is too low?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Has anyone here , besides me , ever run into a situation where you actually * need * to press both pedals ?
Crappy gas ?
Or change in ambient temperature , and suddenly your idle setting is too low ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Has anyone here, besides me, ever run into a situation where you actually *need* to press both pedals?
Crappy gas?
Or change in ambient temperature, and suddenly your idle setting is too low?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288074</id>
	<title>Re:I will be getting that firmware update</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267211280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you don't react well to stressful situations please stay off the roads. I'm alive because I react very well to stressful situations, situations generally caused by fools that lock up and freeze when something goes awry on the road, such as them losing traction.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you do n't react well to stressful situations please stay off the roads .
I 'm alive because I react very well to stressful situations , situations generally caused by fools that lock up and freeze when something goes awry on the road , such as them losing traction .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you don't react well to stressful situations please stay off the roads.
I'm alive because I react very well to stressful situations, situations generally caused by fools that lock up and freeze when something goes awry on the road, such as them losing traction.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286198</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287870</id>
	<title>Here's the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267210620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How about not hiring 16 years olds to do the programming? How about not letting Walt the janitor be the tester?<br>Forget Toyota. Buy American.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How about not hiring 16 years olds to do the programming ?
How about not letting Walt the janitor be the tester ? Forget Toyota .
Buy American .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about not hiring 16 years olds to do the programming?
How about not letting Walt the janitor be the tester?Forget Toyota.
Buy American.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31292792</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>Rosyna</author>
	<datestamp>1267190700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Turn your car off if it accelerates out of control.</p></div><p>Turn it off how? Moderner cars don't need an ignition key to remain on. Hell, it's just a pretty keylock in many cases. From some stories, it seems even the emergency brake will fail to halt one of these failures.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Turn your car off if it accelerates out of control.Turn it off how ?
Moderner cars do n't need an ignition key to remain on .
Hell , it 's just a pretty keylock in many cases .
From some stories , it seems even the emergency brake will fail to halt one of these failures .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Turn your car off if it accelerates out of control.Turn it off how?
Moderner cars don't need an ignition key to remain on.
Hell, it's just a pretty keylock in many cases.
From some stories, it seems even the emergency brake will fail to halt one of these failures.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287996</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31289476</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267216500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have a 2007 Tundra, which is affected as well. The representative at the dealership told that the "'floor mat' excuse," as you call it, is only an issue when customers stack floor mats. He said he'd seen as many as three or four floor mats stacked at a time. <i>That</i> is when this creates a problem.</p><p>The sticking gas pedal is a completely separate issue, and is a mechanical failure. This one, said the rep, is usually only of concern in warm, high-humidity environments. Of course, you'd be crazy not to grab the fix regardless of where you live.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have a 2007 Tundra , which is affected as well .
The representative at the dealership told that the " 'floor mat ' excuse , " as you call it , is only an issue when customers stack floor mats .
He said he 'd seen as many as three or four floor mats stacked at a time .
That is when this creates a problem.The sticking gas pedal is a completely separate issue , and is a mechanical failure .
This one , said the rep , is usually only of concern in warm , high-humidity environments .
Of course , you 'd be crazy not to grab the fix regardless of where you live .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have a 2007 Tundra, which is affected as well.
The representative at the dealership told that the "'floor mat' excuse," as you call it, is only an issue when customers stack floor mats.
He said he'd seen as many as three or four floor mats stacked at a time.
That is when this creates a problem.The sticking gas pedal is a completely separate issue, and is a mechanical failure.
This one, said the rep, is usually only of concern in warm, high-humidity environments.
Of course, you'd be crazy not to grab the fix regardless of where you live.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287676</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288004</id>
	<title>Re:Take the subway - or campaign for one to exist.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267211040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Wheres the -1 Aging Liberal Hippie Douche-bag mod?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Wheres the -1 Aging Liberal Hippie Douche-bag mod ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wheres the -1 Aging Liberal Hippie Douche-bag mod?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286106</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287690</id>
	<title>Large brick percentage? There is your problem.</title>
	<author>gig</author>
	<datestamp>1267210020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If a large number of firmware updates are bricking your devices, you are buying bad gear. I've never had a firmware update brick anything. Buy better gear.</p><p>Pretending firmware doesn't exist is not a solution. It's there because it needs to be updated sometimes.</p><p>You have to patch that car due to liability if nothing else. If you get into an accident, the other party's lawyer could make hay with the fact you're driving an unpatched Toyota.<br>
&nbsp;</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If a large number of firmware updates are bricking your devices , you are buying bad gear .
I 've never had a firmware update brick anything .
Buy better gear.Pretending firmware does n't exist is not a solution .
It 's there because it needs to be updated sometimes.You have to patch that car due to liability if nothing else .
If you get into an accident , the other party 's lawyer could make hay with the fact you 're driving an unpatched Toyota .
 </tokentext>
<sentencetext>If a large number of firmware updates are bricking your devices, you are buying bad gear.
I've never had a firmware update brick anything.
Buy better gear.Pretending firmware doesn't exist is not a solution.
It's there because it needs to be updated sometimes.You have to patch that car due to liability if nothing else.
If you get into an accident, the other party's lawyer could make hay with the fact you're driving an unpatched Toyota.
 </sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286232</id>
	<title>Re:Their new slogan</title>
	<author>megamerican</author>
	<datestamp>1267205280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Where was the Spanish Inquisition errr... Congress when <a href="http://money.cnn.com/2009/10/13/news/companies/Ford\_recall/index.htm" title="cnn.com">Ford had to recall 4.5 million cars</a> [cnn.com] a few months ago due to their cruise control causing fires?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Where was the Spanish Inquisition errr... Congress when Ford had to recall 4.5 million cars [ cnn.com ] a few months ago due to their cruise control causing fires ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Where was the Spanish Inquisition errr... Congress when Ford had to recall 4.5 million cars [cnn.com] a few months ago due to their cruise control causing fires?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285940</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31421404</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>ckaminski</author>
	<datestamp>1268140980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Oh. My. Gawd.<br><br>Turn the fucking car off.  Hit the parking brake.  Jam the brake pedal through the floor.  Don't call your fucking husband.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Oh .
My. Gawd.Turn the fucking car off .
Hit the parking brake .
Jam the brake pedal through the floor .
Do n't call your fucking husband .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Oh.
My. Gawd.Turn the fucking car off.
Hit the parking brake.
Jam the brake pedal through the floor.
Don't call your fucking husband.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31294034</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286688</id>
	<title>Re:Jane, you ignorant slut...</title>
	<author>Aladrin</author>
	<datestamp>1267206780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>While I disagree with the 'large percentage of firmware updates actually brick' bit, he's correct that it's pretty common practice not to update firmware unless there's a known bug that -is- affecting you.</p><p>However, that applies to non-mission-critical appliances like home routers and not to death machines like cars or any device that could cost someone a -lot- of money if it goes down.</p><p>And you should never do the firmware update on a 'live' system for the same reason.  So if he's actually driving the car while he updates the firmware, that would be bad.  Otherwise, it should be done.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>While I disagree with the 'large percentage of firmware updates actually brick ' bit , he 's correct that it 's pretty common practice not to update firmware unless there 's a known bug that -is- affecting you.However , that applies to non-mission-critical appliances like home routers and not to death machines like cars or any device that could cost someone a -lot- of money if it goes down.And you should never do the firmware update on a 'live ' system for the same reason .
So if he 's actually driving the car while he updates the firmware , that would be bad .
Otherwise , it should be done .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While I disagree with the 'large percentage of firmware updates actually brick' bit, he's correct that it's pretty common practice not to update firmware unless there's a known bug that -is- affecting you.However, that applies to non-mission-critical appliances like home routers and not to death machines like cars or any device that could cost someone a -lot- of money if it goes down.And you should never do the firmware update on a 'live' system for the same reason.
So if he's actually driving the car while he updates the firmware, that would be bad.
Otherwise, it should be done.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286082</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286242</id>
	<title>I would take it</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267205340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> I would take the fix.  Because if you dont and something happens you cant sue them because they offered a fix.  Also with all the stuff going on, they are spending extra time on QA</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would take the fix .
Because if you dont and something happens you cant sue them because they offered a fix .
Also with all the stuff going on , they are spending extra time on QA</tokentext>
<sentencetext> I would take the fix.
Because if you dont and something happens you cant sue them because they offered a fix.
Also with all the stuff going on, they are spending extra time on QA</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285928</id>
	<title>If it bricks, it's their fault.</title>
	<author>rotide</author>
	<datestamp>1267204380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>First, this is about your safety.</p><p>Second, if the update bricks your car, that would be Toyota's fault, not yours and I'm pretty sure they would resolve the issue for you free of charge.</p><p>Or, you can keep driving a potentially unsafe vehicle on "firmware update" principles.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>First , this is about your safety.Second , if the update bricks your car , that would be Toyota 's fault , not yours and I 'm pretty sure they would resolve the issue for you free of charge.Or , you can keep driving a potentially unsafe vehicle on " firmware update " principles .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First, this is about your safety.Second, if the update bricks your car, that would be Toyota's fault, not yours and I'm pretty sure they would resolve the issue for you free of charge.Or, you can keep driving a potentially unsafe vehicle on "firmware update" principles.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286924</id>
	<title>Of course you should...</title>
	<author>getSalled</author>
	<datestamp>1267207440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>IANAL but if you ever need to take part in a lawsuit against them, you may not want to be on record as not accepting the fix when they presented it to you.  If you're truly that concerned about it, then you probably shouldn't be driving a Toyota or, as the most extreme, be driving a car with many electronic components.</htmltext>
<tokenext>IANAL but if you ever need to take part in a lawsuit against them , you may not want to be on record as not accepting the fix when they presented it to you .
If you 're truly that concerned about it , then you probably should n't be driving a Toyota or , as the most extreme , be driving a car with many electronic components .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>IANAL but if you ever need to take part in a lawsuit against them, you may not want to be on record as not accepting the fix when they presented it to you.
If you're truly that concerned about it, then you probably shouldn't be driving a Toyota or, as the most extreme, be driving a car with many electronic components.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286434</id>
	<title>Hot Rod Toyota</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267206000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sounds like this update would prevent using heel and toeing. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heel-and-toe" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heel-and-toe</a> [wikipedia.org]</p><p>But I don't suppose there are many owners taking manual transmission Toyotas to the track.</p><p>And to address the question: yes, take the update.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sounds like this update would prevent using heel and toeing .
http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heel-and-toe [ wikipedia.org ] But I do n't suppose there are many owners taking manual transmission Toyotas to the track.And to address the question : yes , take the update .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sounds like this update would prevent using heel and toeing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heel-and-toe [wikipedia.org]But I don't suppose there are many owners taking manual transmission Toyotas to the track.And to address the question: yes, take the update.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288360</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>ckaminski</author>
	<datestamp>1267212240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>Which is why I don't like push-button ignition.  If my car ever goes into hyperdrive because of a stuck throttle, I take comfort in knowing I still have a kill switch, and I grew up driving tractors and cars without power steering or power-assist braking, so I can cope.<br><br>How can I trust that that push-button ignition will still shut off the car?  I know it's conceivable that even a key-start ignition might turn all ignition control over to an ECM, but who's done that?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Which is why I do n't like push-button ignition .
If my car ever goes into hyperdrive because of a stuck throttle , I take comfort in knowing I still have a kill switch , and I grew up driving tractors and cars without power steering or power-assist braking , so I can cope.How can I trust that that push-button ignition will still shut off the car ?
I know it 's conceivable that even a key-start ignition might turn all ignition control over to an ECM , but who 's done that ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Which is why I don't like push-button ignition.
If my car ever goes into hyperdrive because of a stuck throttle, I take comfort in knowing I still have a kill switch, and I grew up driving tractors and cars without power steering or power-assist braking, so I can cope.How can I trust that that push-button ignition will still shut off the car?
I know it's conceivable that even a key-start ignition might turn all ignition control over to an ECM, but who's done that?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287676</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286106</id>
	<title>Take the subway - or campaign for one to exist.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267204920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Take a look at the statistics for death causes for people under 60, and you will find almost everyone who doesn't die old dies in a car. Study why cities are large but there's lots of empty space with no people, and what causes <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban\_sprawl" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">urban sprawl</a> [wikipedia.org], and you will find roads and parking lots fill all the space. Look at what wasted labor there is in society, and you will find that producing and maintaining one high-price high-waste transportation system per citizen is quite a bit of work when horses managed do to better than that quite some time ago, not to mention electricity and electric computer system transport. And <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal\_rapid\_transit" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">PRT</a> [wikipedia.org] more recently. Then read about pollution, and oil wars. Then get back in your car anyway, without even writing a letter to someone.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Take a look at the statistics for death causes for people under 60 , and you will find almost everyone who does n't die old dies in a car .
Study why cities are large but there 's lots of empty space with no people , and what causes urban sprawl [ wikipedia.org ] , and you will find roads and parking lots fill all the space .
Look at what wasted labor there is in society , and you will find that producing and maintaining one high-price high-waste transportation system per citizen is quite a bit of work when horses managed do to better than that quite some time ago , not to mention electricity and electric computer system transport .
And PRT [ wikipedia.org ] more recently .
Then read about pollution , and oil wars .
Then get back in your car anyway , without even writing a letter to someone .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Take a look at the statistics for death causes for people under 60, and you will find almost everyone who doesn't die old dies in a car.
Study why cities are large but there's lots of empty space with no people, and what causes urban sprawl [wikipedia.org], and you will find roads and parking lots fill all the space.
Look at what wasted labor there is in society, and you will find that producing and maintaining one high-price high-waste transportation system per citizen is quite a bit of work when horses managed do to better than that quite some time ago, not to mention electricity and electric computer system transport.
And PRT [wikipedia.org] more recently.
Then read about pollution, and oil wars.
Then get back in your car anyway, without even writing a letter to someone.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31295060</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>adolf</author>
	<datestamp>1267212120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What about those of us who consider the ability to operate the accelerator and the brake at the same time as something of a feature, and not a bug?  (Yes, it can be useful to use both at the same time.  No, not often at all -- perhaps never in normal driving.  And if you don't know how it can be useful, there's no point in explaining it to you now; it's obviously not a feature for you.  (Where "you" is the reader, not necessarily the parent poster.))</p><p>The original questioner is obviously aware of the "problem," and appears to be well-versed in dealing with the issues it permits (shift to neutral, turn the key to off but don't remove it, hold the start button for several seconds, etc.).  Therefore, there will never be an insurance claim from this Toyota driver over this software issue.</p><p>So, that all said, I say no:  No software "upgrade."  Myself, I expect a car to do what I command it to do, <i>even if it's wrong</i>, because it's just a machine like any other.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What about those of us who consider the ability to operate the accelerator and the brake at the same time as something of a feature , and not a bug ?
( Yes , it can be useful to use both at the same time .
No , not often at all -- perhaps never in normal driving .
And if you do n't know how it can be useful , there 's no point in explaining it to you now ; it 's obviously not a feature for you .
( Where " you " is the reader , not necessarily the parent poster .
) ) The original questioner is obviously aware of the " problem , " and appears to be well-versed in dealing with the issues it permits ( shift to neutral , turn the key to off but do n't remove it , hold the start button for several seconds , etc. ) .
Therefore , there will never be an insurance claim from this Toyota driver over this software issue.So , that all said , I say no : No software " upgrade .
" Myself , I expect a car to do what I command it to do , even if it 's wrong , because it 's just a machine like any other .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What about those of us who consider the ability to operate the accelerator and the brake at the same time as something of a feature, and not a bug?
(Yes, it can be useful to use both at the same time.
No, not often at all -- perhaps never in normal driving.
And if you don't know how it can be useful, there's no point in explaining it to you now; it's obviously not a feature for you.
(Where "you" is the reader, not necessarily the parent poster.
))The original questioner is obviously aware of the "problem," and appears to be well-versed in dealing with the issues it permits (shift to neutral, turn the key to off but don't remove it, hold the start button for several seconds, etc.).
Therefore, there will never be an insurance claim from this Toyota driver over this software issue.So, that all said, I say no:  No software "upgrade.
"  Myself, I expect a car to do what I command it to do, even if it's wrong, because it's just a machine like any other.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286652</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31318916</id>
	<title>Re:Flawed Fix</title>
	<author>barzok</author>
	<datestamp>1267469280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>So anyone who starts from a stop on a steep incline by slowly depressing the brake while simultaneously pressing the gas to avoid rolling back into the vehicle behind them will now stall their vehicle?</p></div></blockquote><p>I've only ever heard of this with a manual transmission, which none of the cars being recalled is (AFAIK).</p><p>For that matter, I never worried about it with a 5-speed either. Rather than sit on the brake, I'd let the clutch slip a bit while making that transition.</p><p>Many cars made in the past decade or so with automatic transmissions have a "hill holder" feature where, once you come to a complete stop, the car will not roll backwards. I have a 2010 Subaru which goes even further - I can engage a secondary "holder" which will automatically engage the parking brake on a steep enough hill, and the brake automatically releases when you press the accelerator.</p><p>Those that don't have these features still won't stall - the torque converter takes up the slack, which your clutch will not do.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>So anyone who starts from a stop on a steep incline by slowly depressing the brake while simultaneously pressing the gas to avoid rolling back into the vehicle behind them will now stall their vehicle ? I 've only ever heard of this with a manual transmission , which none of the cars being recalled is ( AFAIK ) .For that matter , I never worried about it with a 5-speed either .
Rather than sit on the brake , I 'd let the clutch slip a bit while making that transition.Many cars made in the past decade or so with automatic transmissions have a " hill holder " feature where , once you come to a complete stop , the car will not roll backwards .
I have a 2010 Subaru which goes even further - I can engage a secondary " holder " which will automatically engage the parking brake on a steep enough hill , and the brake automatically releases when you press the accelerator.Those that do n't have these features still wo n't stall - the torque converter takes up the slack , which your clutch will not do .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So anyone who starts from a stop on a steep incline by slowly depressing the brake while simultaneously pressing the gas to avoid rolling back into the vehicle behind them will now stall their vehicle?I've only ever heard of this with a manual transmission, which none of the cars being recalled is (AFAIK).For that matter, I never worried about it with a 5-speed either.
Rather than sit on the brake, I'd let the clutch slip a bit while making that transition.Many cars made in the past decade or so with automatic transmissions have a "hill holder" feature where, once you come to a complete stop, the car will not roll backwards.
I have a 2010 Subaru which goes even further - I can engage a secondary "holder" which will automatically engage the parking brake on a steep enough hill, and the brake automatically releases when you press the accelerator.Those that don't have these features still won't stall - the torque converter takes up the slack, which your clutch will not do.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287002</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286948</id>
	<title>Development vs. bug fixing</title>
	<author>AlecC</author>
	<datestamp>1267207500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Firstly, the 100 million "lines of code" is in "70 to 100 microprocessors". I would bet that is not lines of C source, but at least assembler instructions, and probably bytes of software. Someone has summed all the roms in all the microprocessors to get this value. Several of those microprocessors are likely to be identical (e.g. the ABS on each wheel). And, given that problems rise geometrically, the software on any one processor is likely to be a lot less frightening than the total.</p><p>Also, you need to distinguish between development releases and debug releases. Development releases are much more risky, because people are trying to add new features. If something is a pure debug release, then it is pretty likely to be safe to upgraded it.</p><p>"Bricking" something is actually a function mostly of consumer devices. The device is not actually destroyed, it is just that the cost of repairing it is greater than the cost of a new device - a small number of hundreds of dollars. And usually, behind the bricking there is usually some form of Rights Management, whether it is the RIAA keeping you off music or Apple keeping you from jailbreaking phones. This means that programming can only be done bu software in the device, and if you overwrite that software, you are lost, An in-car component is unlikely to have these features; it is much more likely that a car is reprogrammed by going straight to the programmable device by a hardware port<br>such as JTAG or I2C</p><p>I would not judge car software by consumer software. While not as safety-conscious as the aerospace people, they are in a different league from consumer devices. Hence the fact that car electronics lag consumer electronics by about five years at new model introduction, and far more as the model ages.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Firstly , the 100 million " lines of code " is in " 70 to 100 microprocessors " .
I would bet that is not lines of C source , but at least assembler instructions , and probably bytes of software .
Someone has summed all the roms in all the microprocessors to get this value .
Several of those microprocessors are likely to be identical ( e.g .
the ABS on each wheel ) .
And , given that problems rise geometrically , the software on any one processor is likely to be a lot less frightening than the total.Also , you need to distinguish between development releases and debug releases .
Development releases are much more risky , because people are trying to add new features .
If something is a pure debug release , then it is pretty likely to be safe to upgraded it .
" Bricking " something is actually a function mostly of consumer devices .
The device is not actually destroyed , it is just that the cost of repairing it is greater than the cost of a new device - a small number of hundreds of dollars .
And usually , behind the bricking there is usually some form of Rights Management , whether it is the RIAA keeping you off music or Apple keeping you from jailbreaking phones .
This means that programming can only be done bu software in the device , and if you overwrite that software , you are lost , An in-car component is unlikely to have these features ; it is much more likely that a car is reprogrammed by going straight to the programmable device by a hardware portsuch as JTAG or I2CI would not judge car software by consumer software .
While not as safety-conscious as the aerospace people , they are in a different league from consumer devices .
Hence the fact that car electronics lag consumer electronics by about five years at new model introduction , and far more as the model ages .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Firstly, the 100 million "lines of code" is in "70 to 100 microprocessors".
I would bet that is not lines of C source, but at least assembler instructions, and probably bytes of software.
Someone has summed all the roms in all the microprocessors to get this value.
Several of those microprocessors are likely to be identical (e.g.
the ABS on each wheel).
And, given that problems rise geometrically, the software on any one processor is likely to be a lot less frightening than the total.Also, you need to distinguish between development releases and debug releases.
Development releases are much more risky, because people are trying to add new features.
If something is a pure debug release, then it is pretty likely to be safe to upgraded it.
"Bricking" something is actually a function mostly of consumer devices.
The device is not actually destroyed, it is just that the cost of repairing it is greater than the cost of a new device - a small number of hundreds of dollars.
And usually, behind the bricking there is usually some form of Rights Management, whether it is the RIAA keeping you off music or Apple keeping you from jailbreaking phones.
This means that programming can only be done bu software in the device, and if you overwrite that software, you are lost, An in-car component is unlikely to have these features; it is much more likely that a car is reprogrammed by going straight to the programmable device by a hardware portsuch as JTAG or I2CI would not judge car software by consumer software.
While not as safety-conscious as the aerospace people, they are in a different league from consumer devices.
Hence the fact that car electronics lag consumer electronics by about five years at new model introduction, and far more as the model ages.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286150</id>
	<title>What are the legal liabilities...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267205040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>if you don't take it?</p><p>If I get hit by an out of control Toyota, and later find that the owner refused a patch, you bet I'm going after them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>if you do n't take it ? If I get hit by an out of control Toyota , and later find that the owner refused a patch , you bet I 'm going after them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>if you don't take it?If I get hit by an out of control Toyota, and later find that the owner refused a patch, you bet I'm going after them.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288384</id>
	<title>Re:Look at this from a liability standpoint</title>
	<author>clone53421</author>
	<datestamp>1267212300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You got that exactly backward. If you get the update as you were supposed to do, and something still goes wrong and kills someone, you can blame Toyota and get off scott free. However, if you refuse the update, which was rolled out to correct a bug that&rsquo;s known to have killed people, and your car goes out of control as a result and kills someone... <em>then</em> you are liable.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You got that exactly backward .
If you get the update as you were supposed to do , and something still goes wrong and kills someone , you can blame Toyota and get off scott free .
However , if you refuse the update , which was rolled out to correct a bug that    s known to have killed people , and your car goes out of control as a result and kills someone... then you are liable .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You got that exactly backward.
If you get the update as you were supposed to do, and something still goes wrong and kills someone, you can blame Toyota and get off scott free.
However, if you refuse the update, which was rolled out to correct a bug that’s known to have killed people, and your car goes out of control as a result and kills someone... then you are liable.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286880</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287004</id>
	<title>Should I?</title>
	<author>LeonPierre</author>
	<datestamp>1267207680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>On the bright side, if you don't allow them to install the software update and some horrible horrible accident happens occurs, you'll certainly be a candidate for the Darwin Awards.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>On the bright side , if you do n't allow them to install the software update and some horrible horrible accident happens occurs , you 'll certainly be a candidate for the Darwin Awards .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On the bright side, if you don't allow them to install the software update and some horrible horrible accident happens occurs, you'll certainly be a candidate for the Darwin Awards.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31290996</id>
	<title>Re:If it bricks, it's their fault.</title>
	<author>amohat</author>
	<datestamp>1267180620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Second, this is about the safety of everyone else sharing the road with you."</p><p>FTFY.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Second , this is about the safety of everyone else sharing the road with you .
" FTFY .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Second, this is about the safety of everyone else sharing the road with you.
"FTFY.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285928</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286798</id>
	<title>Exactly how long</title>
	<author>kenh</author>
	<datestamp>1267207020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Exactly how long have you been in the software industry? I've never had a problem with firware upgrades, and your statement: "because a large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardware or cause other unforeseen consequences." points out your inexperience. Define large percentage - I'd put it at well under 1\% of all firmware upgrades, likely well under 0.0001\%, is that a "large percentage"?</p><p>This software was developed and tested, deployed in a world where EVERYTHING Toyota does is under Federal Scrutiny and Class Action lawyers salivating at the prospect of suing Toyota for any inor glitch. This software update likely is among the most scrutinized code in recent history (excepting the staggering review military aircraft and space ship software undergoes). You trust their earlier software more than this new code?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Exactly how long have you been in the software industry ?
I 've never had a problem with firware upgrades , and your statement : " because a large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardware or cause other unforeseen consequences .
" points out your inexperience .
Define large percentage - I 'd put it at well under 1 \ % of all firmware upgrades , likely well under 0.0001 \ % , is that a " large percentage " ? This software was developed and tested , deployed in a world where EVERYTHING Toyota does is under Federal Scrutiny and Class Action lawyers salivating at the prospect of suing Toyota for any inor glitch .
This software update likely is among the most scrutinized code in recent history ( excepting the staggering review military aircraft and space ship software undergoes ) .
You trust their earlier software more than this new code ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Exactly how long have you been in the software industry?
I've never had a problem with firware upgrades, and your statement: "because a large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardware or cause other unforeseen consequences.
" points out your inexperience.
Define large percentage - I'd put it at well under 1\% of all firmware upgrades, likely well under 0.0001\%, is that a "large percentage"?This software was developed and tested, deployed in a world where EVERYTHING Toyota does is under Federal Scrutiny and Class Action lawyers salivating at the prospect of suing Toyota for any inor glitch.
This software update likely is among the most scrutinized code in recent history (excepting the staggering review military aircraft and space ship software undergoes).
You trust their earlier software more than this new code?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31321684</id>
	<title>Re:I've always wondered how starships do it ..</title>
	<author>freaker\_TuC</author>
	<datestamp>1267436700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. basically<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... Hyperspace is a kind-of-security-through-obscurity thing ?</p><p>You just hope the force is with you<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.... or else!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So .. basically ... Hyperspace is a kind-of-security-through-obscurity thing ? You just hope the force is with you .... or else !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So .. basically ... Hyperspace is a kind-of-security-through-obscurity thing ?You just hope the force is with you .... or else!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31308768</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286366</id>
	<title>Re:Jane, you ignorant slut...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267205700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Um, have you ever heard of GMP?  Have you ever been in manufacturing.  Some factories (and for very good reason) will \_not\_ update firmware on sensors and controllers.  Why?  Because they have developed and tested a process around the existing firmware.  If something is \_different\_ then process safety could be compromised.</p><p>Imagine a sensor that had code that always presented the temperature as 20 C degrees too high.  So, the engineer tells the heater to turn off when the sensor reads 110 C (and the process is at 90 C).  Everything is fine.  Now the firmware is updated and it presents the correct temperature.  Now the process is at 110 C, water boils and some poor employee is scalded.</p><p>No, this does not brick the hardware (which is a much easier problem to solve because you \_know\_ something went wrong).  It is much much worse.</p><p>Yes, this is an extreme example.  But, when lives are at stake (safety, drug manufacturing) or lots of money (a small factory may cost $100,000 an hour to operate whether it is producing scrap, shut down due to an accident, or manufacturing $200,000 an hour in product) people get very conservative.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Um , have you ever heard of GMP ?
Have you ever been in manufacturing .
Some factories ( and for very good reason ) will \ _not \ _ update firmware on sensors and controllers .
Why ? Because they have developed and tested a process around the existing firmware .
If something is \ _different \ _ then process safety could be compromised.Imagine a sensor that had code that always presented the temperature as 20 C degrees too high .
So , the engineer tells the heater to turn off when the sensor reads 110 C ( and the process is at 90 C ) .
Everything is fine .
Now the firmware is updated and it presents the correct temperature .
Now the process is at 110 C , water boils and some poor employee is scalded.No , this does not brick the hardware ( which is a much easier problem to solve because you \ _know \ _ something went wrong ) .
It is much much worse.Yes , this is an extreme example .
But , when lives are at stake ( safety , drug manufacturing ) or lots of money ( a small factory may cost $ 100,000 an hour to operate whether it is producing scrap , shut down due to an accident , or manufacturing $ 200,000 an hour in product ) people get very conservative .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Um, have you ever heard of GMP?
Have you ever been in manufacturing.
Some factories (and for very good reason) will \_not\_ update firmware on sensors and controllers.
Why?  Because they have developed and tested a process around the existing firmware.
If something is \_different\_ then process safety could be compromised.Imagine a sensor that had code that always presented the temperature as 20 C degrees too high.
So, the engineer tells the heater to turn off when the sensor reads 110 C (and the process is at 90 C).
Everything is fine.
Now the firmware is updated and it presents the correct temperature.
Now the process is at 110 C, water boils and some poor employee is scalded.No, this does not brick the hardware (which is a much easier problem to solve because you \_know\_ something went wrong).
It is much much worse.Yes, this is an extreme example.
But, when lives are at stake (safety, drug manufacturing) or lots of money (a small factory may cost $100,000 an hour to operate whether it is producing scrap, shut down due to an accident, or manufacturing $200,000 an hour in product) people get very conservative.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286082</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287576</id>
	<title>not accepting the patch == political statement</title>
	<author>elnyka</author>
	<datestamp>1267209660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Not accepting the patch just because the software being patch had bugs (and thus making you wonder if the patch also has bugs) sounds more like a political statement on your doubt of Toyota's software quality than a rational risk management decision.<p>

It's like not wanting to install a security patch to cover a security hole just because there was a security hole that shouldn't  have been in the first place (<i>there was an error before, there must be an error in the patch</i>). No sane sysadmin would operate that way. So why would you, with your car and your life?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Not accepting the patch just because the software being patch had bugs ( and thus making you wonder if the patch also has bugs ) sounds more like a political statement on your doubt of Toyota 's software quality than a rational risk management decision .
It 's like not wanting to install a security patch to cover a security hole just because there was a security hole that should n't have been in the first place ( there was an error before , there must be an error in the patch ) .
No sane sysadmin would operate that way .
So why would you , with your car and your life ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not accepting the patch just because the software being patch had bugs (and thus making you wonder if the patch also has bugs) sounds more like a political statement on your doubt of Toyota's software quality than a rational risk management decision.
It's like not wanting to install a security patch to cover a security hole just because there was a security hole that shouldn't  have been in the first place (there was an error before, there must be an error in the patch).
No sane sysadmin would operate that way.
So why would you, with your car and your life?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286352</id>
	<title>Brick</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267205640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Most software updates that brick something do not actually cause it to hit a brick wall.  This one might.  In Soviet Russia, car has engine kill switch.  In Soviet Toyota, car switch kills you!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Most software updates that brick something do not actually cause it to hit a brick wall .
This one might .
In Soviet Russia , car has engine kill switch .
In Soviet Toyota , car switch kills you !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most software updates that brick something do not actually cause it to hit a brick wall.
This one might.
In Soviet Russia, car has engine kill switch.
In Soviet Toyota, car switch kills you!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287936</id>
	<title>Take the update. I got it for my 2009 Camry.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267210860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><tt>Last week I took my 2009 Camry into the dealer.&nbsp; Here is what they did:<br><br>1)&nbsp; Chopped off about 4cm from the end of the gas pedal.&nbsp; It looks like they did it with a hack saw.&nbsp; The air near the brake pedal smelled like hard plastic that has just been cut.<br><br>2)&nbsp; Replaced the old floormat with looked like this:<br><br>+-----------+<br>|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|<br>|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|<br>|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|<br>|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|<br>|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|<br>|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|<br>+-----------+<br><br>To one that looks like this:<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; +---+<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; |&nbsp; &nbsp;|<br>+---+&nbsp; &nbsp;+---+<br>|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|<br>|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|<br>|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|<br>|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|<br>+-----------+<br><br>That way there is a lower chance of the gas pedal touching the floormat.&nbsp; It also means, that the carpet underneath your gas and clutch pedals will get soiled.<br><br>3)&nbsp; Updated the firmware.&nbsp; After the update, I did a test where I got the car going 30Mph, and then pressed and held the accelerator.&nbsp; While the accelerator was depressed, I applied the brake with my left foot.&nbsp; After about 1.5 seconds, the engine RPM went down to idle speed.&nbsp; I repeated this test 2 more times.&nbsp; Same result each time.<br><br>The firmware update appears to work at least in 3/3 of my test cases.<br></tt></htmltext>
<tokenext>Last week I took my 2009 Camry into the dealer.   Here is what they did : 1 )   Chopped off about 4cm from the end of the gas pedal.   It looks like they did it with a hack saw.   The air near the brake pedal smelled like hard plastic that has just been cut.2 )   Replaced the old floormat with looked like this : + ----------- + |             | |             | |             | |             | |             | |             | + ----------- + To one that looks like this :     + --- +     |     | + --- +     + --- + |             | |             | |             | |             | + ----------- + That way there is a lower chance of the gas pedal touching the floormat.   It also means , that the carpet underneath your gas and clutch pedals will get soiled.3 )   Updated the firmware.   After the update , I did a test where I got the car going 30Mph , and then pressed and held the accelerator.   While the accelerator was depressed , I applied the brake with my left foot.   After about 1.5 seconds , the engine RPM went down to idle speed.   I repeated this test 2 more times.   Same result each time.The firmware update appears to work at least in 3/3 of my test cases .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Last week I took my 2009 Camry into the dealer.  Here is what they did:1)  Chopped off about 4cm from the end of the gas pedal.  It looks like they did it with a hack saw.  The air near the brake pedal smelled like hard plastic that has just been cut.2)  Replaced the old floormat with looked like this:+-----------+|           ||           ||           ||           ||           ||           |+-----------+To one that looks like this:    +---+    |   |+---+   +---+|           ||           ||           ||           |+-----------+That way there is a lower chance of the gas pedal touching the floormat.  It also means, that the carpet underneath your gas and clutch pedals will get soiled.3)  Updated the firmware.  After the update, I did a test where I got the car going 30Mph, and then pressed and held the accelerator.  While the accelerator was depressed, I applied the brake with my left foot.  After about 1.5 seconds, the engine RPM went down to idle speed.  I repeated this test 2 more times.  Same result each time.The firmware update appears to work at least in 3/3 of my test cases.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288576</id>
	<title>Really?</title>
	<author>tthomas48</author>
	<datestamp>1267212840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"In the computer world, we're all taught to install firmware updates only if there is a real problem"</p><p>No actually you're supposed to install firmware updates when they're released if you don't want your machines to become part of botnets. If a firmware update from a manufacturer bricks your device they'll generally send you a new one. If dd-wrt does that's a different matter. You're not still running IE6 are you?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" In the computer world , we 're all taught to install firmware updates only if there is a real problem " No actually you 're supposed to install firmware updates when they 're released if you do n't want your machines to become part of botnets .
If a firmware update from a manufacturer bricks your device they 'll generally send you a new one .
If dd-wrt does that 's a different matter .
You 're not still running IE6 are you ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"In the computer world, we're all taught to install firmware updates only if there is a real problem"No actually you're supposed to install firmware updates when they're released if you don't want your machines to become part of botnets.
If a firmware update from a manufacturer bricks your device they'll generally send you a new one.
If dd-wrt does that's a different matter.
You're not still running IE6 are you?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288402</id>
	<title>Not if you Heel &amp; Toe</title>
	<author>microcars</author>
	<datestamp>1267212360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Don't take the update if you <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heel\_and\_toe" title="wikipedia.org">Heel &amp; Toe</a> [wikipedia.org] your Camry while driving.<br> <br>

also- if you use your Camry for Rock Climbing and need to Heel &amp; Toe you will find yourself at a tremendous disadvantage to the others.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't take the update if you Heel &amp; Toe [ wikipedia.org ] your Camry while driving .
also- if you use your Camry for Rock Climbing and need to Heel &amp; Toe you will find yourself at a tremendous disadvantage to the others .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't take the update if you Heel &amp; Toe [wikipedia.org] your Camry while driving.
also- if you use your Camry for Rock Climbing and need to Heel &amp; Toe you will find yourself at a tremendous disadvantage to the others.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286626</id>
	<title>Re:Take the subway - or campaign for one to exist.</title>
	<author>waddleman</author>
	<datestamp>1267206540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Actually horse were quite a problem for cities because of <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=HvZqtjxZ3NoC&amp;pg=PA36&amp;lpg=PA36&amp;dq=1870+city+disposal+of+manure&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=t6j7dmaJa4&amp;sig=3jD4DAVQbHK2NiCyFN5ssqbIUnQ&amp;hl=en&amp;ei=svmHS7\_cM5qyMbCHgdwO&amp;sa=X&amp;oi=book\_result&amp;ct=result&amp;resnum=5&amp;ved=0CBQQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&amp;q=&amp;f=false\%5B+\%5D" title="google.com" rel="nofollow"> manure disposal and dead horses</a> [google.com] in the street during the industrial revolution. Cars ended up being the solution, not to imply that we still don't deal with a pile of shit from cities today.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Actually horse were quite a problem for cities because of manure disposal and dead horses [ google.com ] in the street during the industrial revolution .
Cars ended up being the solution , not to imply that we still do n't deal with a pile of shit from cities today .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Actually horse were quite a problem for cities because of  manure disposal and dead horses [google.com] in the street during the industrial revolution.
Cars ended up being the solution, not to imply that we still don't deal with a pile of shit from cities today.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286106</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286452</id>
	<title>The bug men</title>
	<author>Quiet\_Desperation</author>
	<datestamp>1267206060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Some of the SW guys at my work are becoming convinced the whole problem was in software to begin with. Maybe this is a bug fix posing as something else.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Some of the SW guys at my work are becoming convinced the whole problem was in software to begin with .
Maybe this is a bug fix posing as something else .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Some of the SW guys at my work are becoming convinced the whole problem was in software to begin with.
Maybe this is a bug fix posing as something else.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31290830</id>
	<title>Software developer asks:</title>
	<author>dlawson</author>
	<datestamp>1267179780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You say you are a developer, and ask a question like that?</p><p>And I didn't even pause to see if ANYONE asked this already. I don't care, because if you were on one of my teams and asked something like that, you'd be off my team in an instant.</p><p>"My driving habits don't cause the floor mat to slide much, so I see the update as overkill." Since when did the mechanical placement of a floor mat have ANYTHING to do with the "fly-by-wire" operation of the throttle???</p><p>I'm still dumbfounded that anyone could confuse the two.</p><p>Dave Lawson</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You say you are a developer , and ask a question like that ? And I did n't even pause to see if ANYONE asked this already .
I do n't care , because if you were on one of my teams and asked something like that , you 'd be off my team in an instant .
" My driving habits do n't cause the floor mat to slide much , so I see the update as overkill .
" Since when did the mechanical placement of a floor mat have ANYTHING to do with the " fly-by-wire " operation of the throttle ? ?
? I 'm still dumbfounded that anyone could confuse the two.Dave Lawson</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You say you are a developer, and ask a question like that?And I didn't even pause to see if ANYONE asked this already.
I don't care, because if you were on one of my teams and asked something like that, you'd be off my team in an instant.
"My driving habits don't cause the floor mat to slide much, so I see the update as overkill.
" Since when did the mechanical placement of a floor mat have ANYTHING to do with the "fly-by-wire" operation of the throttle??
?I'm still dumbfounded that anyone could confuse the two.Dave Lawson</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31289898</id>
	<title>Unless you're Heel-Toe-ing in your Camry...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267175460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Unless you consistently find yourself using heel-toe techniques while driving your Camry (which would be pretty much completely ridiculous as I don't think they even make the thing with a  manual transmission, aside from the fact that it is basically a family sized commuting utility, not a sports car), I'd say take the fix.</p><p>There are many other drive by wire cars that I would definitely not want the application of the brake to cut throttle to idle speeds, my last 4 vehicles being included in this list.  However, all of these have manual transmissions where the driver can simply depress the clutch and/or put the thing in neutral.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Unless you consistently find yourself using heel-toe techniques while driving your Camry ( which would be pretty much completely ridiculous as I do n't think they even make the thing with a manual transmission , aside from the fact that it is basically a family sized commuting utility , not a sports car ) , I 'd say take the fix.There are many other drive by wire cars that I would definitely not want the application of the brake to cut throttle to idle speeds , my last 4 vehicles being included in this list .
However , all of these have manual transmissions where the driver can simply depress the clutch and/or put the thing in neutral .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unless you consistently find yourself using heel-toe techniques while driving your Camry (which would be pretty much completely ridiculous as I don't think they even make the thing with a  manual transmission, aside from the fact that it is basically a family sized commuting utility, not a sports car), I'd say take the fix.There are many other drive by wire cars that I would definitely not want the application of the brake to cut throttle to idle speeds, my last 4 vehicles being included in this list.
However, all of these have manual transmissions where the driver can simply depress the clutch and/or put the thing in neutral.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286038</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>Rakshasa Taisab</author>
	<datestamp>1267204740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Good luck getting any money from Toyota or your insurance company if you \_don't\_ take that update.</p><p>Besides, there's not 100 million lines of code in \_that\_ particular part, they won't be updating your blinkenlights firmware and such at the same time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Good luck getting any money from Toyota or your insurance company if you \ _do n't \ _ take that update.Besides , there 's not 100 million lines of code in \ _that \ _ particular part , they wo n't be updating your blinkenlights firmware and such at the same time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Good luck getting any money from Toyota or your insurance company if you \_don't\_ take that update.Besides, there's not 100 million lines of code in \_that\_ particular part, they won't be updating your blinkenlights firmware and such at the same time.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285912</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288046</id>
	<title>remove the floor mat</title>
	<author>dirty\_ghost</author>
	<datestamp>1267211220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>fixed that for you.</htmltext>
<tokenext>fixed that for you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>fixed that for you.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286198</id>
	<title>I will be getting that firmware update</title>
	<author>urulokion</author>
	<datestamp>1267205160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have an '09 Prius. And I'll be getting that firmware update. It's a feature they should have included in the first place. It's not the best implementation of the brake override I'd like. What I'd really like to have an electrical circuit connection between the brake pedal and the throttle fly-by-wire assembly. When the circuit is tripped, the throttle position output of the assembly drops to 0 regardless of actual pedal position or sensor position. But that would require new hardware.</p><p>I'm getting the update because if the engine does start runaway acceleration, the brakes aren't enough to overcome the hybrid system's output. I know the right thing to do would be to put the car into neutral and get it safely off the road. But I don't react well to stressful situations.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have an '09 Prius .
And I 'll be getting that firmware update .
It 's a feature they should have included in the first place .
It 's not the best implementation of the brake override I 'd like .
What I 'd really like to have an electrical circuit connection between the brake pedal and the throttle fly-by-wire assembly .
When the circuit is tripped , the throttle position output of the assembly drops to 0 regardless of actual pedal position or sensor position .
But that would require new hardware.I 'm getting the update because if the engine does start runaway acceleration , the brakes are n't enough to overcome the hybrid system 's output .
I know the right thing to do would be to put the car into neutral and get it safely off the road .
But I do n't react well to stressful situations .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have an '09 Prius.
And I'll be getting that firmware update.
It's a feature they should have included in the first place.
It's not the best implementation of the brake override I'd like.
What I'd really like to have an electrical circuit connection between the brake pedal and the throttle fly-by-wire assembly.
When the circuit is tripped, the throttle position output of the assembly drops to 0 regardless of actual pedal position or sensor position.
But that would require new hardware.I'm getting the update because if the engine does start runaway acceleration, the brakes aren't enough to overcome the hybrid system's output.
I know the right thing to do would be to put the car into neutral and get it safely off the road.
But I don't react well to stressful situations.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288282</id>
	<title>Re:Their new slogan</title>
	<author>Lithdren</author>
	<datestamp>1267211940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Moving Forward, Uncontrollably.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Moving Forward , Uncontrollably .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Moving Forward, Uncontrollably.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285940</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286622</id>
	<title>Re:Their new slogan</title>
	<author>Sperbels</author>
	<datestamp>1267206540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Where was the Spanish Inquisition errr... Congress when Ford had to recall 4.5 million cars a few months ago due to their cruise control causing fires?</p></div><p>Agreed.  This has the feel of a smear campaign to put GM back on top.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Where was the Spanish Inquisition errr... Congress when Ford had to recall 4.5 million cars a few months ago due to their cruise control causing fires ? Agreed .
This has the feel of a smear campaign to put GM back on top .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Where was the Spanish Inquisition errr... Congress when Ford had to recall 4.5 million cars a few months ago due to their cruise control causing fires?Agreed.
This has the feel of a smear campaign to put GM back on top.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286232</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286850</id>
	<title>Not to worry</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267207200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have disassembled all the code in my Camry - including the latest update.  Not to worry, it looks real good to me.  I hope to have a fully commented listing available for download in the near future.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have disassembled all the code in my Camry - including the latest update .
Not to worry , it looks real good to me .
I hope to have a fully commented listing available for download in the near future .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have disassembled all the code in my Camry - including the latest update.
Not to worry, it looks real good to me.
I hope to have a fully commented listing available for download in the near future.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31289710</id>
	<title>crazy-ass</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267217700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>i'm going to sue toy-haha-ta for making cars that didnt get me to the rest-room fast enough, and the resulting electric faulting that got me a date with<br>a tree<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... (not)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>i 'm going to sue toy-haha-ta for making cars that didnt get me to the rest-room fast enough , and the resulting electric faulting that got me a date witha tree ... ( not )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>i'm going to sue toy-haha-ta for making cars that didnt get me to the rest-room fast enough, and the resulting electric faulting that got me a date witha tree ... (not)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31289582</id>
	<title>Re:You're looking at it wrong.</title>
	<author>seanvaandering</author>
	<datestamp>1267217040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>How can I trust that that push-button ignition will still shut off the car?</p></div></blockquote><p>

Just push the power button for 5 seconds.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>How can I trust that that push-button ignition will still shut off the car ?
Just push the power button for 5 seconds .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How can I trust that that push-button ignition will still shut off the car?
Just push the power button for 5 seconds.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31288360</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286568</id>
	<title>uninformed</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267206360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>a large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardware</p></div><p>Actually, the percentage of firmware updates to "brick" hardware is tiny. Also, as it has been previously noted on<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/., the term "brick" is being over use by peopled that don't understand the term. You "Mr Software Developer" fall into this category of uninformed people.</p><p><div class="quote"><p> or cause other unforeseen consequences.</p></div><p>You think the original firmware is 100\% clear of bugs?</p><p><div class="quote"><p>My driving habits don't cause the floor mat to slide much</p></div><p>Until that faithful day you have a problem. Meh, your genes are better outside of the pool.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>a large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardwareActually , the percentage of firmware updates to " brick " hardware is tiny .
Also , as it has been previously noted on /. , the term " brick " is being over use by peopled that do n't understand the term .
You " Mr Software Developer " fall into this category of uninformed people .
or cause other unforeseen consequences.You think the original firmware is 100 \ % clear of bugs ? My driving habits do n't cause the floor mat to slide muchUntil that faithful day you have a problem .
Meh , your genes are better outside of the pool .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>a large percentage of firmware updates actually brick the hardwareActually, the percentage of firmware updates to "brick" hardware is tiny.
Also, as it has been previously noted on /., the term "brick" is being over use by peopled that don't understand the term.
You "Mr Software Developer" fall into this category of uninformed people.
or cause other unforeseen consequences.You think the original firmware is 100\% clear of bugs?My driving habits don't cause the floor mat to slide muchUntil that faithful day you have a problem.
Meh, your genes are better outside of the pool.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286476</id>
	<title>Re:There is nothing wrong with your toyota</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267206120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In response to the Audi issues, they later found out that the woman lied under oath about hitting the brake pedal when she was mashing on the gas in reality.  I dont have a cite for it, but I am sure someone can find it.</p><p>take the patch and get back to work.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In response to the Audi issues , they later found out that the woman lied under oath about hitting the brake pedal when she was mashing on the gas in reality .
I dont have a cite for it , but I am sure someone can find it.take the patch and get back to work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In response to the Audi issues, they later found out that the woman lied under oath about hitting the brake pedal when she was mashing on the gas in reality.
I dont have a cite for it, but I am sure someone can find it.take the patch and get back to work.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286130</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31291098</id>
	<title>Re:100 million line of code total BS</title>
	<author>BLKMGK</author>
	<datestamp>1267181220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Most cars run all the same software anyway? Wow, you really don't know much about this do you? 40 parameters is also incorrect. When you take into account variable cams, emissions, variable steering ratios, e-throttle, anti-lock brakes, traction management, and a whole host of other toys in cars these days you'll begin to understand just how much is going on. Chrysler ECU's I've looked into haven't exactly been leading the charge on technology either! With the introduction of OBD-II and the CAN-BUS the whole car has computers in it and they can all be programmed if you have the right tools. 2K might be the code found in a window regulator these days lol.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Most cars run all the same software anyway ?
Wow , you really do n't know much about this do you ?
40 parameters is also incorrect .
When you take into account variable cams , emissions , variable steering ratios , e-throttle , anti-lock brakes , traction management , and a whole host of other toys in cars these days you 'll begin to understand just how much is going on .
Chrysler ECU 's I 've looked into have n't exactly been leading the charge on technology either !
With the introduction of OBD-II and the CAN-BUS the whole car has computers in it and they can all be programmed if you have the right tools .
2K might be the code found in a window regulator these days lol .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most cars run all the same software anyway?
Wow, you really don't know much about this do you?
40 parameters is also incorrect.
When you take into account variable cams, emissions, variable steering ratios, e-throttle, anti-lock brakes, traction management, and a whole host of other toys in cars these days you'll begin to understand just how much is going on.
Chrysler ECU's I've looked into haven't exactly been leading the charge on technology either!
With the introduction of OBD-II and the CAN-BUS the whole car has computers in it and they can all be programmed if you have the right tools.
2K might be the code found in a window regulator these days lol.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286528</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286554</id>
	<title>Just ditch the floor mats</title>
	<author>bmearns</author>
	<datestamp>1267206300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>A similar (though admittedly less severe) thing used to happened all the time on my old Sonata. The solution was to simply throw away the floor mat.</htmltext>
<tokenext>A similar ( though admittedly less severe ) thing used to happened all the time on my old Sonata .
The solution was to simply throw away the floor mat .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A similar (though admittedly less severe) thing used to happened all the time on my old Sonata.
The solution was to simply throw away the floor mat.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286542</id>
	<title>Re:yes</title>
	<author>NewWorldDan</author>
	<datestamp>1267206300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes.  Double yes.</p><p>And since this is an emergency fix hastely cobbled together, go back to your dealer in a 6 months or a year and ask if there's another update, for when they've finished polishing the latest updated.  The upside to dealer service is that they (or at least mine does) typically update firmware when you take the car in, something a lot of independant shops don't have access to.  A lot of unreported problems quietly get fixed with the consumer none the wiser (unless you check the sticker on your ECC.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes .
Double yes.And since this is an emergency fix hastely cobbled together , go back to your dealer in a 6 months or a year and ask if there 's another update , for when they 've finished polishing the latest updated .
The upside to dealer service is that they ( or at least mine does ) typically update firmware when you take the car in , something a lot of independant shops do n't have access to .
A lot of unreported problems quietly get fixed with the consumer none the wiser ( unless you check the sticker on your ECC .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes.
Double yes.And since this is an emergency fix hastely cobbled together, go back to your dealer in a 6 months or a year and ask if there's another update, for when they've finished polishing the latest updated.
The upside to dealer service is that they (or at least mine does) typically update firmware when you take the car in, something a lot of independant shops don't have access to.
A lot of unreported problems quietly get fixed with the consumer none the wiser (unless you check the sticker on your ECC.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31285926</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31289720</id>
	<title>Preferable...</title>
	<author>DrHex</author>
	<datestamp>1267217700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>not while you are driving.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>not while you are driving .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>not while you are driving.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31287864</id>
	<title>Re:Seriously?</title>
	<author>JWSmythe</author>
	<datestamp>1267210560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>  Citations would have been good.  Here they are for reference.  There could be more.</p><blockquote><div><p>December 26, 2009: A Toyota Avalon crashes into a lake in Texas after accelerating out of control. All four occupants die. Floor mats are ruled out as a cause because they are found in the trunk of the car.</p><p><a href="http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto\_news/2010/112\_1001\_toyota\_recall\_crisis/december\_january.html#ixzz0gfKwamco" title="motortrend.com">Read more</a> [motortrend.com]</p></div></blockquote><blockquote><div><p>Four Jehovah's Witnesses died when a 2008 Toyota Avalon they were riding inside raced out of control and plummeted into a pond on December 26.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...<br>Speculations had swelled over whether the car's mat had become stuck on the accelerator, which was one of the reason's Toyota recalled the Avalon, along with several other models. But, investigators found the floor mats in the car's trunk after the accident, ruling out the mat theory.<br><a href="http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Probe-determines-floormats-not-to-blame-in-fatal-Southlake-crash-80755487.html" title="wfaa.com">Read more</a> [wfaa.com]</p></div></blockquote></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Citations would have been good .
Here they are for reference .
There could be more.December 26 , 2009 : A Toyota Avalon crashes into a lake in Texas after accelerating out of control .
All four occupants die .
Floor mats are ruled out as a cause because they are found in the trunk of the car.Read more [ motortrend.com ] Four Jehovah 's Witnesses died when a 2008 Toyota Avalon they were riding inside raced out of control and plummeted into a pond on December 26 .
...Speculations had swelled over whether the car 's mat had become stuck on the accelerator , which was one of the reason 's Toyota recalled the Avalon , along with several other models .
But , investigators found the floor mats in the car 's trunk after the accident , ruling out the mat theory.Read more [ wfaa.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>  Citations would have been good.
Here they are for reference.
There could be more.December 26, 2009: A Toyota Avalon crashes into a lake in Texas after accelerating out of control.
All four occupants die.
Floor mats are ruled out as a cause because they are found in the trunk of the car.Read more [motortrend.com]Four Jehovah's Witnesses died when a 2008 Toyota Avalon they were riding inside raced out of control and plummeted into a pond on December 26.
...Speculations had swelled over whether the car's mat had become stuck on the accelerator, which was one of the reason's Toyota recalled the Avalon, along with several other models.
But, investigators found the floor mats in the car's trunk after the accident, ruling out the mat theory.Read more [wfaa.com]
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31286036</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_26_1447213.31295058</id>
	<title>It's madness that this is not the default.</title>
	<author>Goodgerster</author>
	<datestamp>1267212120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>When I discovered the existence of automatic transmissions as a child (we Europeans primarily use the more efficient manual transmission), I asked how it stopped the engine from stalling when the brake pedal was applied. My father told me that the brake pedal was also connected to a clutch. This would obviously cut power to the engine when the brake was in use.<br> <br>The force from an idling 1580cc turbodiesel, even without a stuck accelerator, extended the emergency stop distance of my learner car by a non-negligible distance, at least a couple of metres. This is why my driving lessons included engaging the clutch after the brake when performing emergency stops.<br> <br>Now I have recently learned from Slashdot that, seemingly, in most automatics the brake pedal doesn't even cut the throttle. Given that many automatic cars in the US seem to be connected to 3000cc six-cylinder behemoths, I am sure this worsens the stopping distance for those cars a great deal more than a couple of metres. How many people has this particular design flaw killed over the last fifty-odd years?</htmltext>
<tokenext>When I discovered the existence of automatic transmissions as a child ( we Europeans primarily use the more efficient manual transmission ) , I asked how it stopped the engine from stalling when the brake pedal was applied .
My father told me that the brake pedal was also connected to a clutch .
This would obviously cut power to the engine when the brake was in use .
The force from an idling 1580cc turbodiesel , even without a stuck accelerator , extended the emergency stop distance of my learner car by a non-negligible distance , at least a couple of metres .
This is why my driving lessons included engaging the clutch after the brake when performing emergency stops .
Now I have recently learned from Slashdot that , seemingly , in most automatics the brake pedal does n't even cut the throttle .
Given that many automatic cars in the US seem to be connected to 3000cc six-cylinder behemoths , I am sure this worsens the stopping distance for those cars a great deal more than a couple of metres .
How many people has this particular design flaw killed over the last fifty-odd years ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I discovered the existence of automatic transmissions as a child (we Europeans primarily use the more efficient manual transmission), I asked how it stopped the engine from stalling when the brake pedal was applied.
My father told me that the brake pedal was also connected to a clutch.
This would obviously cut power to the engine when the brake was in use.
The force from an idling 1580cc turbodiesel, even without a stuck accelerator, extended the emergency stop distance of my learner car by a non-negligible distance, at least a couple of metres.
This is why my driving lessons included engaging the clutch after the brake when performing emergency stops.
Now I have recently learned from Slashdot that, seemingly, in most automatics the brake pedal doesn't even cut the throttle.
Given that many automatic cars in the US seem to be connected to 3000cc six-cylinder behemoths, I am sure this worsens the stopping distance for those cars a great deal more than a couple of metres.
How many people has this particular design flaw killed over the last fifty-odd years?</sentencetext>
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