<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_02_24_155214</id>
	<title>The Billion Dollar Kernel</title>
	<author>CmdrTaco</author>
	<datestamp>1267026780000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>jesgar writes <i>"The Linux kernel would cost more than one billion EUR (about 1.4 billion USD) to develop in  the European Union.  This is the <a href="http://iri.jrc.ec.europa.eu/concord-2010/posters/Garcia-Garcia.ppt">estimate made by researchers from the University of Oviedo</a> (PPT), whereby the value annually added to this product was about 100 million EUR between 2005 and 2007 and 225 million EUR in 2008. The estimated 2008 result is comparable to 4\% and 12\% of Microsoft's and Google's R&amp;D expenses on whole company products. Cost model 'Intermediate COCOMO81' is used <a href="http://www.dwheeler.com/essays/linux-kernel-cost.html">according to parametric estimations by David Wheeler</a>. An average annual base salary for a  developer of 31,040 EUR was estimated from the EUROSTAT. Previously, similar works had been done by several authors estimating <a href="http://www.dwheeler.com/sloc/redhat71-v1/redhat71sloc.html">Red Hat</a>, <a href="http://arxiv.org/pdf/cs.SE/0506067">Debian</a>, and <a href="http://www.linuxfoundation.org/publications/estimatinglinux.php">Fedora</a> distributions. The cost estimation is not of itself important, but it is an important means to an end: that commons-based innovation must receive a higher level of official recognition that would set it as an alternative to decision-makers. Ideally, legal and regulatory frameworks must allow companies participating on commons-based R&amp;D to generate intangible assets for their contribution to successful projects. Otherwise, expenses must have an equitable tax treatment as a donation to social welfare."</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>jesgar writes " The Linux kernel would cost more than one billion EUR ( about 1.4 billion USD ) to develop in the European Union .
This is the estimate made by researchers from the University of Oviedo ( PPT ) , whereby the value annually added to this product was about 100 million EUR between 2005 and 2007 and 225 million EUR in 2008 .
The estimated 2008 result is comparable to 4 \ % and 12 \ % of Microsoft 's and Google 's R&amp;D expenses on whole company products .
Cost model 'Intermediate COCOMO81 ' is used according to parametric estimations by David Wheeler .
An average annual base salary for a developer of 31,040 EUR was estimated from the EUROSTAT .
Previously , similar works had been done by several authors estimating Red Hat , Debian , and Fedora distributions .
The cost estimation is not of itself important , but it is an important means to an end : that commons-based innovation must receive a higher level of official recognition that would set it as an alternative to decision-makers .
Ideally , legal and regulatory frameworks must allow companies participating on commons-based R&amp;D to generate intangible assets for their contribution to successful projects .
Otherwise , expenses must have an equitable tax treatment as a donation to social welfare .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>jesgar writes "The Linux kernel would cost more than one billion EUR (about 1.4 billion USD) to develop in  the European Union.
This is the estimate made by researchers from the University of Oviedo (PPT), whereby the value annually added to this product was about 100 million EUR between 2005 and 2007 and 225 million EUR in 2008.
The estimated 2008 result is comparable to 4\% and 12\% of Microsoft's and Google's R&amp;D expenses on whole company products.
Cost model 'Intermediate COCOMO81' is used according to parametric estimations by David Wheeler.
An average annual base salary for a  developer of 31,040 EUR was estimated from the EUROSTAT.
Previously, similar works had been done by several authors estimating Red Hat, Debian, and Fedora distributions.
The cost estimation is not of itself important, but it is an important means to an end: that commons-based innovation must receive a higher level of official recognition that would set it as an alternative to decision-makers.
Ideally, legal and regulatory frameworks must allow companies participating on commons-based R&amp;D to generate intangible assets for their contribution to successful projects.
Otherwise, expenses must have an equitable tax treatment as a donation to social welfare.
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261060</id>
	<title>Re:Seems a bit high</title>
	<author>Albert Sandberg</author>
	<datestamp>1265133780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Maybe they estimated Chuck Norris would do the coding.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe they estimated Chuck Norris would do the coding .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe they estimated Chuck Norris would do the coding.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260524</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31262746</id>
	<title>Re:lol wut?</title>
	<author>Belial6</author>
	<datestamp>1265140620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Your in-built translation apparatus is simply too simple.  "unethical extortion of wealth via the threat of state violence" is HOW "Social Welfare" is frequently accomplished.  It isn't the Social Welfare itself.  While this does happen, it isn't the only way to give to Social Welfare.  The article is suggesting that Linux developers have already willingly donated to Social Welfare, so should get the benefits that are usually reserved for those that have been victims of "unethical extortion of wealth via the threat of state violence".</htmltext>
<tokenext>Your in-built translation apparatus is simply too simple .
" unethical extortion of wealth via the threat of state violence " is HOW " Social Welfare " is frequently accomplished .
It is n't the Social Welfare itself .
While this does happen , it is n't the only way to give to Social Welfare .
The article is suggesting that Linux developers have already willingly donated to Social Welfare , so should get the benefits that are usually reserved for those that have been victims of " unethical extortion of wealth via the threat of state violence " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Your in-built translation apparatus is simply too simple.
"unethical extortion of wealth via the threat of state violence" is HOW "Social Welfare" is frequently accomplished.
It isn't the Social Welfare itself.
While this does happen, it isn't the only way to give to Social Welfare.
The article is suggesting that Linux developers have already willingly donated to Social Welfare, so should get the benefits that are usually reserved for those that have been victims of "unethical extortion of wealth via the threat of state violence".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260194</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261946</id>
	<title>Re:I'm not sure COCOMO is a good measure</title>
	<author>david\_thornley</author>
	<datestamp>1265137200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I'd say every "Kernel line of code" is probably worth 10 lines of code in userspace, if not more.</p></div>
</blockquote><p>
Brooks, in <i>The Mythical Man-Month</i>, said that compiler coding is about three times as hard as normal application programming, and OS coding is about three times as hard as compiler coding, so your estimate has good precedent.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd say every " Kernel line of code " is probably worth 10 lines of code in userspace , if not more .
Brooks , in The Mythical Man-Month , said that compiler coding is about three times as hard as normal application programming , and OS coding is about three times as hard as compiler coding , so your estimate has good precedent .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd say every "Kernel line of code" is probably worth 10 lines of code in userspace, if not more.
Brooks, in The Mythical Man-Month, said that compiler coding is about three times as hard as normal application programming, and OS coding is about three times as hard as compiler coding, so your estimate has good precedent.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260200</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31266084</id>
	<title>Re:And yet...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265111820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've set up a lot of Windows computers.  I've also set up a lot of Linux computers. Either one can go really easy or really hard.  Of the two I have found Windows is the more likely one to be difficult.  (I'm not talking about installing Windows on a factory made machine using a factory restore disk with the computer's exact drivers pre-setup, what kind of fair comparison would that be?)
<br>
<br>
Now, that being said, I'm not trying to belittle you for trying but I have a few observations about people who try Linux, have a horror story and then tell everyone else how much it sucks...
<br> <br>
First, they are usually experienced Windows users trying to set up Linux on their own.  As an experienced Windows user you have access to an experienced Windows users advice at all times.  It's yourself! If you are going to make a fair comparison get a Linux user to help you... in person... just like you are there in person.
<br> <br>
Second, it's usually a laptop.  Of course you can run Linux on a laptop.  But you really shouldn't make a laptop your first Linux experience.  Laptop hardware is not anywhere near as open as desktop hardware.  If there is ever going to be one-off hardware with a custom driver available only for windows then it's in a laptop.  Laptops just aren't really made or marketed as multipurpose devices.  They are designed to be Windows boxes used as/is for their short lives until they burn out.  If you really want to see what Linux is about start on your desktop if you have one.  It's just easier.  Then, if you chose to continue, after having some experience under your belt there are plenty of people out there who will help you figure out the intricacies of upgrading your laptop to Linux.
<br> <br>
Now, as to your specific install...
If your machine didn't want to boot off of your install disk then that's a pretty big red flag.  Either something was wrong with your disk or with your machine.  My first bet is it was a bad burn.  That, or the disk media wasn't totally compatible with the machine.  A lot of older machines don't boot very well off of burnt media even if they read it just fine.  I wonder if your XP disk was burned or original?  OK, you don't have to answer that.  If burned then I wonder if it was the same kind of disk, burned with the same burning software, at the same speed... I'm not familiar with "Unetbootin" but it sounds like you went for the uber-Linux hacker approach before trying the easy stuff... like re-downloading a fresh copy and burning a new disk.
<br> <br>
You received numerous errors even with the "Unetbootin" approach.  Yup, that fits, probably a bad burn.  If the disks boot sector wasn't right no doubt there were other corrupted areas too.
<br> <br>
I could sum up any complaints after that with saying you can't trust an install from a bad disk to be representative of the norm.  Still, that is assuming too much, I wasn't even there.
<br> <br>
Slow KDE &amp; Gnome?  If this was a recent, up to date Linux it probably defaults to having lots of 3D effects.  Hey, geeks just like eye candy so give them what they want.  If your graphics chip just doesn't have 3D drivers in Linux then those effects can be turned off.  There's plenty of back and forth posts here about whose fault that is so I won't bother.  Just about any nVidia device is supported though.  You just have to install the closed source nVidia drivers.  Most RECENT Linux distros make that easy with just a minimal number of clicks.
<br> <br>
Another common Linux onetimerism I forgot to mention.  Trying to install an old out of date distro.  Linux and OSS in general moves much faster than closed source customers are used to.  If you see a Linux CD stuck in the cover of some dusty library book LEAVE IT THERE!  A Linux disk from 6 months ago will be significantly behind a new one.  Once you get to a year or two it's like trying to learn Windows by installing Windows 95!  The nice thing is though... Linux is free.  Just download the latest today and use that.  All you lose is the cost of a CDR and a couple minutes time.  If your co</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've set up a lot of Windows computers .
I 've also set up a lot of Linux computers .
Either one can go really easy or really hard .
Of the two I have found Windows is the more likely one to be difficult .
( I 'm not talking about installing Windows on a factory made machine using a factory restore disk with the computer 's exact drivers pre-setup , what kind of fair comparison would that be ?
) Now , that being said , I 'm not trying to belittle you for trying but I have a few observations about people who try Linux , have a horror story and then tell everyone else how much it sucks.. . First , they are usually experienced Windows users trying to set up Linux on their own .
As an experienced Windows user you have access to an experienced Windows users advice at all times .
It 's yourself !
If you are going to make a fair comparison get a Linux user to help you... in person... just like you are there in person .
Second , it 's usually a laptop .
Of course you can run Linux on a laptop .
But you really should n't make a laptop your first Linux experience .
Laptop hardware is not anywhere near as open as desktop hardware .
If there is ever going to be one-off hardware with a custom driver available only for windows then it 's in a laptop .
Laptops just are n't really made or marketed as multipurpose devices .
They are designed to be Windows boxes used as/is for their short lives until they burn out .
If you really want to see what Linux is about start on your desktop if you have one .
It 's just easier .
Then , if you chose to continue , after having some experience under your belt there are plenty of people out there who will help you figure out the intricacies of upgrading your laptop to Linux .
Now , as to your specific install.. . If your machine did n't want to boot off of your install disk then that 's a pretty big red flag .
Either something was wrong with your disk or with your machine .
My first bet is it was a bad burn .
That , or the disk media was n't totally compatible with the machine .
A lot of older machines do n't boot very well off of burnt media even if they read it just fine .
I wonder if your XP disk was burned or original ?
OK , you do n't have to answer that .
If burned then I wonder if it was the same kind of disk , burned with the same burning software , at the same speed... I 'm not familiar with " Unetbootin " but it sounds like you went for the uber-Linux hacker approach before trying the easy stuff... like re-downloading a fresh copy and burning a new disk .
You received numerous errors even with the " Unetbootin " approach .
Yup , that fits , probably a bad burn .
If the disks boot sector was n't right no doubt there were other corrupted areas too .
I could sum up any complaints after that with saying you ca n't trust an install from a bad disk to be representative of the norm .
Still , that is assuming too much , I was n't even there .
Slow KDE &amp; Gnome ?
If this was a recent , up to date Linux it probably defaults to having lots of 3D effects .
Hey , geeks just like eye candy so give them what they want .
If your graphics chip just does n't have 3D drivers in Linux then those effects can be turned off .
There 's plenty of back and forth posts here about whose fault that is so I wo n't bother .
Just about any nVidia device is supported though .
You just have to install the closed source nVidia drivers .
Most RECENT Linux distros make that easy with just a minimal number of clicks .
Another common Linux onetimerism I forgot to mention .
Trying to install an old out of date distro .
Linux and OSS in general moves much faster than closed source customers are used to .
If you see a Linux CD stuck in the cover of some dusty library book LEAVE IT THERE !
A Linux disk from 6 months ago will be significantly behind a new one .
Once you get to a year or two it 's like trying to learn Windows by installing Windows 95 !
The nice thing is though... Linux is free .
Just download the latest today and use that .
All you lose is the cost of a CDR and a couple minutes time .
If your co</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've set up a lot of Windows computers.
I've also set up a lot of Linux computers.
Either one can go really easy or really hard.
Of the two I have found Windows is the more likely one to be difficult.
(I'm not talking about installing Windows on a factory made machine using a factory restore disk with the computer's exact drivers pre-setup, what kind of fair comparison would that be?
)


Now, that being said, I'm not trying to belittle you for trying but I have a few observations about people who try Linux, have a horror story and then tell everyone else how much it sucks...
 
First, they are usually experienced Windows users trying to set up Linux on their own.
As an experienced Windows user you have access to an experienced Windows users advice at all times.
It's yourself!
If you are going to make a fair comparison get a Linux user to help you... in person... just like you are there in person.
Second, it's usually a laptop.
Of course you can run Linux on a laptop.
But you really shouldn't make a laptop your first Linux experience.
Laptop hardware is not anywhere near as open as desktop hardware.
If there is ever going to be one-off hardware with a custom driver available only for windows then it's in a laptop.
Laptops just aren't really made or marketed as multipurpose devices.
They are designed to be Windows boxes used as/is for their short lives until they burn out.
If you really want to see what Linux is about start on your desktop if you have one.
It's just easier.
Then, if you chose to continue, after having some experience under your belt there are plenty of people out there who will help you figure out the intricacies of upgrading your laptop to Linux.
Now, as to your specific install...
If your machine didn't want to boot off of your install disk then that's a pretty big red flag.
Either something was wrong with your disk or with your machine.
My first bet is it was a bad burn.
That, or the disk media wasn't totally compatible with the machine.
A lot of older machines don't boot very well off of burnt media even if they read it just fine.
I wonder if your XP disk was burned or original?
OK, you don't have to answer that.
If burned then I wonder if it was the same kind of disk, burned with the same burning software, at the same speed... I'm not familiar with "Unetbootin" but it sounds like you went for the uber-Linux hacker approach before trying the easy stuff... like re-downloading a fresh copy and burning a new disk.
You received numerous errors even with the "Unetbootin" approach.
Yup, that fits, probably a bad burn.
If the disks boot sector wasn't right no doubt there were other corrupted areas too.
I could sum up any complaints after that with saying you can't trust an install from a bad disk to be representative of the norm.
Still, that is assuming too much, I wasn't even there.
Slow KDE &amp; Gnome?
If this was a recent, up to date Linux it probably defaults to having lots of 3D effects.
Hey, geeks just like eye candy so give them what they want.
If your graphics chip just doesn't have 3D drivers in Linux then those effects can be turned off.
There's plenty of back and forth posts here about whose fault that is so I won't bother.
Just about any nVidia device is supported though.
You just have to install the closed source nVidia drivers.
Most RECENT Linux distros make that easy with just a minimal number of clicks.
Another common Linux onetimerism I forgot to mention.
Trying to install an old out of date distro.
Linux and OSS in general moves much faster than closed source customers are used to.
If you see a Linux CD stuck in the cover of some dusty library book LEAVE IT THERE!
A Linux disk from 6 months ago will be significantly behind a new one.
Once you get to a year or two it's like trying to learn Windows by installing Windows 95!
The nice thing is though... Linux is free.
Just download the latest today and use that.
All you lose is the cost of a CDR and a couple minutes time.
If your co</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31262442</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31264630</id>
	<title>Re:Salary</title>
	<author>juanjux</author>
	<datestamp>1265105580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>On my country, Spain, that's pretty much the average salary for a userspace developer with 2-3 years experience. But not a kernel developer. A kernel developer could not find work here.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>On my country , Spain , that 's pretty much the average salary for a userspace developer with 2-3 years experience .
But not a kernel developer .
A kernel developer could not find work here .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On my country, Spain, that's pretty much the average salary for a userspace developer with 2-3 years experience.
But not a kernel developer.
A kernel developer could not find work here.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260520</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260246</id>
	<title>Re:One BILLIOIN DOLLARS</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265130300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The Slashdot summary is clearly wrong. It says right there in the first line its 1.4 (1.3547 billion U.S. dollars) bn USD. Come on!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The Slashdot summary is clearly wrong .
It says right there in the first line its 1.4 ( 1.3547 billion U.S. dollars ) bn USD .
Come on !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The Slashdot summary is clearly wrong.
It says right there in the first line its 1.4 (1.3547 billion U.S. dollars) bn USD.
Come on!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260108</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261804</id>
	<title>Average developers working on the kernel?</title>
	<author>Redlite</author>
	<datestamp>1265136660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I don't think an average developer salary is the accurate number to use in this estimate. The developers working on the kernel are probably anything but average.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't think an average developer salary is the accurate number to use in this estimate .
The developers working on the kernel are probably anything but average .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't think an average developer salary is the accurate number to use in this estimate.
The developers working on the kernel are probably anything but average.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261102</id>
	<title>Or...</title>
	<author>clickety6</author>
	<datestamp>1265133960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>12 dollars 32 cents if it had been outsourced to India...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>12 dollars 32 cents if it had been outsourced to India.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>12 dollars 32 cents if it had been outsourced to India...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31263038</id>
	<title>ah i think i have translated that into english</title>
	<author>mjwalshe</author>
	<datestamp>1265141880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>some ones trying to get some eu pork(tax breaks) for OS projects</htmltext>
<tokenext>some ones trying to get some eu pork ( tax breaks ) for OS projects</tokentext>
<sentencetext>some ones trying to get some eu pork(tax breaks) for OS projects</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31264456</id>
	<title>Re:And yet...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265104920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>When I went to reinstall XP it was easy as pie. The installation took one hour, everything worked fine on the first shot and performance levels are where they should be.</p></div><p>You know, I have to call bullshit on this. I have installed numerous different versions of numerous linux distros (at least 6 distros I can think of off the top of my head) on, I would guess, 50 -100 computers over the past 5 or 6 years and never once have I encountered getting the basic system up and running. This includes on minimal hardware that required small footprint window managers. I've installed dozens of Windows systems over that same period. Never once have I installed Windows where it didn't require digging for drivers. In most cases with Windows it required sneaker netting network drivers onto the system just to get the network up to install the rest of the drivers. And never have I encountered hardware that ran Windows XP faster than linux.</p><p>So, yes sir, I am calling you a liar. Hmmm...or maybe a Microsoft employee...or is that the same thing?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>When I went to reinstall XP it was easy as pie .
The installation took one hour , everything worked fine on the first shot and performance levels are where they should be.You know , I have to call bullshit on this .
I have installed numerous different versions of numerous linux distros ( at least 6 distros I can think of off the top of my head ) on , I would guess , 50 -100 computers over the past 5 or 6 years and never once have I encountered getting the basic system up and running .
This includes on minimal hardware that required small footprint window managers .
I 've installed dozens of Windows systems over that same period .
Never once have I installed Windows where it did n't require digging for drivers .
In most cases with Windows it required sneaker netting network drivers onto the system just to get the network up to install the rest of the drivers .
And never have I encountered hardware that ran Windows XP faster than linux.So , yes sir , I am calling you a liar .
Hmmm...or maybe a Microsoft employee...or is that the same thing ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I went to reinstall XP it was easy as pie.
The installation took one hour, everything worked fine on the first shot and performance levels are where they should be.You know, I have to call bullshit on this.
I have installed numerous different versions of numerous linux distros (at least 6 distros I can think of off the top of my head) on, I would guess, 50 -100 computers over the past 5 or 6 years and never once have I encountered getting the basic system up and running.
This includes on minimal hardware that required small footprint window managers.
I've installed dozens of Windows systems over that same period.
Never once have I installed Windows where it didn't require digging for drivers.
In most cases with Windows it required sneaker netting network drivers onto the system just to get the network up to install the rest of the drivers.
And never have I encountered hardware that ran Windows XP faster than linux.So, yes sir, I am calling you a liar.
Hmmm...or maybe a Microsoft employee...or is that the same thing?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31262442</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261826</id>
	<title>Re:Ramifications</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265136780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Union programmers... *cringe*<br>
&nbsp; <br>What safety remedy would a programmers union demand from an employer anyway that the oppressed programmer can not liberate himself from?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Union programmers... * cringe *   What safety remedy would a programmers union demand from an employer anyway that the oppressed programmer can not liberate himself from ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Union programmers... *cringe*
  What safety remedy would a programmers union demand from an employer anyway that the oppressed programmer can not liberate himself from?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260684</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31264288</id>
	<title>Re:Seems a bit high</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265104200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Isn't it an implementation of the POSIX specification? Not that I'm volunteering myself, but haven't Debian basically developed a replacement to the kernel (which is all they're talking about) out of BSD code.</p></div><p>Debian ported *Debian* packages to run on top of FreeBSD kernel. You know, it is basically FreeBSD that looks like other Linux ports that run under Linux.</p><p>But, wow, just wow. Ignorance is bliss, but making shit up is just stupid.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Is n't it an implementation of the POSIX specification ?
Not that I 'm volunteering myself , but have n't Debian basically developed a replacement to the kernel ( which is all they 're talking about ) out of BSD code.Debian ported * Debian * packages to run on top of FreeBSD kernel .
You know , it is basically FreeBSD that looks like other Linux ports that run under Linux.But , wow , just wow .
Ignorance is bliss , but making shit up is just stupid .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Isn't it an implementation of the POSIX specification?
Not that I'm volunteering myself, but haven't Debian basically developed a replacement to the kernel (which is all they're talking about) out of BSD code.Debian ported *Debian* packages to run on top of FreeBSD kernel.
You know, it is basically FreeBSD that looks like other Linux ports that run under Linux.But, wow, just wow.
Ignorance is bliss, but making shit up is just stupid.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260374</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31264366</id>
	<title>Re:lol wut?</title>
	<author>Elektroschock</author>
	<datestamp>1265104620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why shouldn't the goverment simply do what Google SoC does. Or they could spent 80 million to do a "winter of code" in their name. In government terms that is peanuts but it would make a huge difference to internet development and raise international attention.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why should n't the goverment simply do what Google SoC does .
Or they could spent 80 million to do a " winter of code " in their name .
In government terms that is peanuts but it would make a huge difference to internet development and raise international attention .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why shouldn't the goverment simply do what Google SoC does.
Or they could spent 80 million to do a "winter of code" in their name.
In government terms that is peanuts but it would make a huge difference to internet development and raise international attention.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261830</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31262988</id>
	<title>you'd be wrong</title>
	<author>Chirs</author>
	<datestamp>1265141700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I suspect that there is a lot of redundant and duplicated code in the kernel.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if you could implement it with a cleaner design in closer to 1m lines of code.</p></div><p>You'd be wrong.  There's actually relatively little duplicated code in the kernel, mostly due to the fact that it's constantly being refactored.  The vast majority of kernel code is drivers and arch-specific stuff.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I suspect that there is a lot of redundant and duplicated code in the kernel .
I would n't be at all surprised if you could implement it with a cleaner design in closer to 1m lines of code.You 'd be wrong .
There 's actually relatively little duplicated code in the kernel , mostly due to the fact that it 's constantly being refactored .
The vast majority of kernel code is drivers and arch-specific stuff .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I suspect that there is a lot of redundant and duplicated code in the kernel.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if you could implement it with a cleaner design in closer to 1m lines of code.You'd be wrong.
There's actually relatively little duplicated code in the kernel, mostly due to the fact that it's constantly being refactored.
The vast majority of kernel code is drivers and arch-specific stuff.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261414</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260366</id>
	<title>Re:I'm not sure COCOMO is a good measure</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265130900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Especially lines like:
<br> <br>
<tt>#define	ENOENT		 2<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/* No such file or directory */</tt></htmltext>
<tokenext>Especially lines like : # define ENOENT 2 / * No such file or directory * /</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Especially lines like:
 
#define	ENOENT		 2 /* No such file or directory */</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260200</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260524</id>
	<title>Re:Seems a bit high</title>
	<author>characterZer0</author>
	<datestamp>1265131680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You are nuts.</p><p>12 people at 40 hours a week for 9 months is 1123200 minutes. The kernel is about 12 million lines of code. That works out to a line of code every 5 and a half seconds.</p><p>Good luck with that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You are nuts.12 people at 40 hours a week for 9 months is 1123200 minutes .
The kernel is about 12 million lines of code .
That works out to a line of code every 5 and a half seconds.Good luck with that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are nuts.12 people at 40 hours a week for 9 months is 1123200 minutes.
The kernel is about 12 million lines of code.
That works out to a line of code every 5 and a half seconds.Good luck with that.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260170</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31263120</id>
	<title>Re:I'm not sure COCOMO is a good measure</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265142240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>David Wheeler's chosen Intermediate COCOMO81 parameters count each line of source code as being worth approximately 3 times that of a normal application. (Default basic COCOMO).</p><p>Change just one parameter to where it indicates a higher cost and one could easilly get one line of code to be worth 10 times as much as in default basic COCOMO.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>David Wheeler 's chosen Intermediate COCOMO81 parameters count each line of source code as being worth approximately 3 times that of a normal application .
( Default basic COCOMO ) .Change just one parameter to where it indicates a higher cost and one could easilly get one line of code to be worth 10 times as much as in default basic COCOMO .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>David Wheeler's chosen Intermediate COCOMO81 parameters count each line of source code as being worth approximately 3 times that of a normal application.
(Default basic COCOMO).Change just one parameter to where it indicates a higher cost and one could easilly get one line of code to be worth 10 times as much as in default basic COCOMO.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260200</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260154</id>
	<title>And yet...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265129880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>And yet no one would use it on the desktop.</htmltext>
<tokenext>And yet no one would use it on the desktop .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And yet no one would use it on the desktop.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31263584</id>
	<title>Re:Seems a bit high</title>
	<author>mick232</author>
	<datestamp>1265144160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>He didn't claim that the resulting kernel would contain 12 million lines of code. 12 geniuses might come up with the same functionality coded in considerably fewer lines.

That being said, I actually doubt it's possible. Not even for 1 billion, because projects of such size have a high likelihood of cost explosion.</htmltext>
<tokenext>He did n't claim that the resulting kernel would contain 12 million lines of code .
12 geniuses might come up with the same functionality coded in considerably fewer lines .
That being said , I actually doubt it 's possible .
Not even for 1 billion , because projects of such size have a high likelihood of cost explosion .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He didn't claim that the resulting kernel would contain 12 million lines of code.
12 geniuses might come up with the same functionality coded in considerably fewer lines.
That being said, I actually doubt it's possible.
Not even for 1 billion, because projects of such size have a high likelihood of cost explosion.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260524</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261502</id>
	<title>Paving the way for a download tax</title>
	<author>iwaybandit</author>
	<datestamp>1265135580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>The last that I've heard is that Spain faces some fiscal difficulties, they need to raise some revenue.<br> <br>Though the study only considers the kernel, a starting point has been established. Downloading an entire operating system for free (other than ISP charges) denies the state the revenue from sales/VAT tax that would have been paid on shrink-wrapped product. The downloader receives benefit from the download similar to the benefit received by someone who purchased the shrink-wrap product. Should the downloader be taxed similarly to the tax-paying purchaser?<br> <br>Now that a value is placed on something that is free, it is ready to be taxed like any other product on the market. What I wonder is, did U of O undertake the study at the behest of the government.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The last that I 've heard is that Spain faces some fiscal difficulties , they need to raise some revenue .
Though the study only considers the kernel , a starting point has been established .
Downloading an entire operating system for free ( other than ISP charges ) denies the state the revenue from sales/VAT tax that would have been paid on shrink-wrapped product .
The downloader receives benefit from the download similar to the benefit received by someone who purchased the shrink-wrap product .
Should the downloader be taxed similarly to the tax-paying purchaser ?
Now that a value is placed on something that is free , it is ready to be taxed like any other product on the market .
What I wonder is , did U of O undertake the study at the behest of the government .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The last that I've heard is that Spain faces some fiscal difficulties, they need to raise some revenue.
Though the study only considers the kernel, a starting point has been established.
Downloading an entire operating system for free (other than ISP charges) denies the state the revenue from sales/VAT tax that would have been paid on shrink-wrapped product.
The downloader receives benefit from the download similar to the benefit received by someone who purchased the shrink-wrap product.
Should the downloader be taxed similarly to the tax-paying purchaser?
Now that a value is placed on something that is free, it is ready to be taxed like any other product on the market.
What I wonder is, did U of O undertake the study at the behest of the government.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31262010</id>
	<title>Re:I'm not sure COCOMO is a good measure</title>
	<author>mkramer</author>
	<datestamp>1265137380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you notice in the article, that's why there is a whole order-of-magnitude difference between the basic and the parameterized COCOMO estimations.</p><p>Using the parameterized models, you're able to describe a lot of the complexities that set kernel-programming apart.</p><p>Now, whether or not they're enough is a whole other topic, but the model DOES try to account for such differences.  I have a feeling that the real-life-projects they used to generate their parameter coefficients included very few OSes.</p><p>It would be interesting to make a ceiling calculation of ACTUAL development time for the Linux kernel (something like, for each month of the kernel's life, the number of developers who submitted patches * 1MM).  Would that at all approach the COCOMO number?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you notice in the article , that 's why there is a whole order-of-magnitude difference between the basic and the parameterized COCOMO estimations.Using the parameterized models , you 're able to describe a lot of the complexities that set kernel-programming apart.Now , whether or not they 're enough is a whole other topic , but the model DOES try to account for such differences .
I have a feeling that the real-life-projects they used to generate their parameter coefficients included very few OSes.It would be interesting to make a ceiling calculation of ACTUAL development time for the Linux kernel ( something like , for each month of the kernel 's life , the number of developers who submitted patches * 1MM ) .
Would that at all approach the COCOMO number ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you notice in the article, that's why there is a whole order-of-magnitude difference between the basic and the parameterized COCOMO estimations.Using the parameterized models, you're able to describe a lot of the complexities that set kernel-programming apart.Now, whether or not they're enough is a whole other topic, but the model DOES try to account for such differences.
I have a feeling that the real-life-projects they used to generate their parameter coefficients included very few OSes.It would be interesting to make a ceiling calculation of ACTUAL development time for the Linux kernel (something like, for each month of the kernel's life, the number of developers who submitted patches * 1MM).
Would that at all approach the COCOMO number?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260200</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260144</id>
	<title>Re:One BILLIOIN DOLLARS</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265129820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You had the second post and that's all you could think of?!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You had the second post and that 's all you could think of ?
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You had the second post and that's all you could think of?
!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260108</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261414</id>
	<title>Re:Seems a bit high</title>
	<author>TheRaven64</author>
	<datestamp>1265135220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>That's assuming that a replacement would be 12m lines of code.  I recently rewrote a few classes for an open source project that I contribute to and replaced 5,000 lines of code with 500 (which did more, ran faster, and fixed some bugs along the way).  Just because the current implementation is 12m lines, doesn't mean that the correct implementation is 12m lines.  From the Linux kernel code that I've read, I suspect that there is a lot of redundant and duplicated code in the kernel.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if you could implement it with a cleaner design in closer to 1m lines of code.</htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's assuming that a replacement would be 12m lines of code .
I recently rewrote a few classes for an open source project that I contribute to and replaced 5,000 lines of code with 500 ( which did more , ran faster , and fixed some bugs along the way ) .
Just because the current implementation is 12m lines , does n't mean that the correct implementation is 12m lines .
From the Linux kernel code that I 've read , I suspect that there is a lot of redundant and duplicated code in the kernel .
I would n't be at all surprised if you could implement it with a cleaner design in closer to 1m lines of code .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's assuming that a replacement would be 12m lines of code.
I recently rewrote a few classes for an open source project that I contribute to and replaced 5,000 lines of code with 500 (which did more, ran faster, and fixed some bugs along the way).
Just because the current implementation is 12m lines, doesn't mean that the correct implementation is 12m lines.
From the Linux kernel code that I've read, I suspect that there is a lot of redundant and duplicated code in the kernel.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if you could implement it with a cleaner design in closer to 1m lines of code.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260524</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31263812</id>
	<title>Original Unix License was One BILLION DOLLARS</title>
	<author>billstewart</author>
	<datestamp>1265101980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Back in the mumblety-80s, standard Bell Labs* Unix licenses came in binary and source versions.  Binaries were cheap, source more expensive, universities got discounts so it was nearly free to them.  At one point the US Government wanted a license that would give them unlimited rights to the code, because that was what they got for software that they'd paid to have develop, and their contracting bureaucrats insisted strenuously that they wanted that option for Unix as well.  The Bell Labs Obnoxious Licensing Lawyers thought about it for a while, decided ok, and gave them a price - One Billion Dollars.  The government bureaucrats said "ok, thanks", checked the box on their forms saying it was available, didn't actually order it<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p><p><nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</p><p>* Actually, depending on the year, it might have been Bell Labs, or Western Electric, or various parts of AT the bureaucracy you ordered Unix from changed over the years.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Back in the mumblety-80s , standard Bell Labs * Unix licenses came in binary and source versions .
Binaries were cheap , source more expensive , universities got discounts so it was nearly free to them .
At one point the US Government wanted a license that would give them unlimited rights to the code , because that was what they got for software that they 'd paid to have develop , and their contracting bureaucrats insisted strenuously that they wanted that option for Unix as well .
The Bell Labs Obnoxious Licensing Lawyers thought about it for a while , decided ok , and gave them a price - One Billion Dollars .
The government bureaucrats said " ok , thanks " , checked the box on their forms saying it was available , did n't actually order it : - ) ... * Actually , depending on the year , it might have been Bell Labs , or Western Electric , or various parts of AT the bureaucracy you ordered Unix from changed over the years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Back in the mumblety-80s, standard Bell Labs* Unix licenses came in binary and source versions.
Binaries were cheap, source more expensive, universities got discounts so it was nearly free to them.
At one point the US Government wanted a license that would give them unlimited rights to the code, because that was what they got for software that they'd paid to have develop, and their contracting bureaucrats insisted strenuously that they wanted that option for Unix as well.
The Bell Labs Obnoxious Licensing Lawyers thought about it for a while, decided ok, and gave them a price - One Billion Dollars.
The government bureaucrats said "ok, thanks", checked the box on their forms saying it was available, didn't actually order it :-) ...* Actually, depending on the year, it might have been Bell Labs, or Western Electric, or various parts of AT the bureaucracy you ordered Unix from changed over the years.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260108</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31262196</id>
	<title>Re:31,040 EUR???</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265138160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>   And yet, a SIZEABLE number of employers seem to expect people to be able to survive on the equivalent of FAR less in the U.S. with no benefits, no vacation pay, no sick leave unless you yourself pay the cost either through unaffordable insurance or out of pocket, and work on an essentially "on-call" basis. I've been having to care for a family of three on roughly $1400 U.S. GROSS per month, and employers act like they're doing you a favor by paying legally mandated overtime pay. Mind, you, I'm aware there is not a 1:1 ratio of U.S. dollars to the Euro, (the Euro is worth a bit more, as I recall) but even if it was, $3000 a month would be a dramatic improvement over our living standards.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And yet , a SIZEABLE number of employers seem to expect people to be able to survive on the equivalent of FAR less in the U.S. with no benefits , no vacation pay , no sick leave unless you yourself pay the cost either through unaffordable insurance or out of pocket , and work on an essentially " on-call " basis .
I 've been having to care for a family of three on roughly $ 1400 U.S. GROSS per month , and employers act like they 're doing you a favor by paying legally mandated overtime pay .
Mind , you , I 'm aware there is not a 1 : 1 ratio of U.S. dollars to the Euro , ( the Euro is worth a bit more , as I recall ) but even if it was , $ 3000 a month would be a dramatic improvement over our living standards .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>   And yet, a SIZEABLE number of employers seem to expect people to be able to survive on the equivalent of FAR less in the U.S. with no benefits, no vacation pay, no sick leave unless you yourself pay the cost either through unaffordable insurance or out of pocket, and work on an essentially "on-call" basis.
I've been having to care for a family of three on roughly $1400 U.S. GROSS per month, and employers act like they're doing you a favor by paying legally mandated overtime pay.
Mind, you, I'm aware there is not a 1:1 ratio of U.S. dollars to the Euro, (the Euro is worth a bit more, as I recall) but even if it was, $3000 a month would be a dramatic improvement over our living standards.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31263108</id>
	<title>"Free" OSes</title>
	<author>mikein08</author>
	<datestamp>1265142180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Well, gee<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... if Linux went away, there'd still
be unix<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... both of them "free" (you get what you
pay for).</htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , gee ... if Linux went away , there 'd still be unix ... both of them " free " ( you get what you pay for ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, gee ... if Linux went away, there'd still
be unix ... both of them "free" (you get what you
pay for).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261482</id>
	<title>Re:Ramifications</title>
	<author>Actually, I do RTFA</author>
	<datestamp>1265135520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Am I allowed to write off my FOSS development as a charitable donation on my taxes? Am I allowed to charge the $50 an hour I think I'm worth? I'm sure this has been asked before, but it's the first I've ever actually thought about it...</p></div></blockquote><p>I don't see why not.  Charge the open-source project $50 an hour, and then donate your salary to offset the cost of hiring you.  Of course, that's a lot of paperwork for no net gain... and it only works if the FOSS is a registered non-profit.</p><p>If you're asking "can I work 40 hours a week for a charity, and 40 hours a week for a business, and thus pay no taxes" then the answer would be no.  How would that make sense.  You're working 80 hours a week.  You're donating 40 of them.  You therefore pay taxes on the other 40.</p><p>Responses specific to my locality, and my unprofessional (non-lawyer) assessment of the law.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Am I allowed to write off my FOSS development as a charitable donation on my taxes ?
Am I allowed to charge the $ 50 an hour I think I 'm worth ?
I 'm sure this has been asked before , but it 's the first I 've ever actually thought about it...I do n't see why not .
Charge the open-source project $ 50 an hour , and then donate your salary to offset the cost of hiring you .
Of course , that 's a lot of paperwork for no net gain... and it only works if the FOSS is a registered non-profit.If you 're asking " can I work 40 hours a week for a charity , and 40 hours a week for a business , and thus pay no taxes " then the answer would be no .
How would that make sense .
You 're working 80 hours a week .
You 're donating 40 of them .
You therefore pay taxes on the other 40.Responses specific to my locality , and my unprofessional ( non-lawyer ) assessment of the law .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Am I allowed to write off my FOSS development as a charitable donation on my taxes?
Am I allowed to charge the $50 an hour I think I'm worth?
I'm sure this has been asked before, but it's the first I've ever actually thought about it...I don't see why not.
Charge the open-source project $50 an hour, and then donate your salary to offset the cost of hiring you.
Of course, that's a lot of paperwork for no net gain... and it only works if the FOSS is a registered non-profit.If you're asking "can I work 40 hours a week for a charity, and 40 hours a week for a business, and thus pay no taxes" then the answer would be no.
How would that make sense.
You're working 80 hours a week.
You're donating 40 of them.
You therefore pay taxes on the other 40.Responses specific to my locality, and my unprofessional (non-lawyer) assessment of the law.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260408</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260374</id>
	<title>Re:Seems a bit high</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265130960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Now, the beauty of OSS is that are no hard specs, so that could indefinitely extend the development time, I suppose.</p></div><p>Isn't it an implementation of the POSIX specification? Not that I'm volunteering myself, but haven't Debian basically developed a replacement to the kernel (which is all they're talking about) out of BSD code. Did it cost them a billion? I guess using BSD is cheating but if you were replacing it for practical reasons instead of as a game then that's probably a good way to do it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Now , the beauty of OSS is that are no hard specs , so that could indefinitely extend the development time , I suppose.Is n't it an implementation of the POSIX specification ?
Not that I 'm volunteering myself , but have n't Debian basically developed a replacement to the kernel ( which is all they 're talking about ) out of BSD code .
Did it cost them a billion ?
I guess using BSD is cheating but if you were replacing it for practical reasons instead of as a game then that 's probably a good way to do it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Now, the beauty of OSS is that are no hard specs, so that could indefinitely extend the development time, I suppose.Isn't it an implementation of the POSIX specification?
Not that I'm volunteering myself, but haven't Debian basically developed a replacement to the kernel (which is all they're talking about) out of BSD code.
Did it cost them a billion?
I guess using BSD is cheating but if you were replacing it for practical reasons instead of as a game then that's probably a good way to do it.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260170</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260794</id>
	<title>Linus's pay</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265132760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Bank executives are payed 10s of millions of dollars per year for their amazing contributions to society.  Hedge fund managers pull in hundreds of millions of dollars for all they do to make the world a better place.  Considering Linus's work benefits society more than anything any of these asshats have ever done by a mile, he alone should be pulling a 10 figure salary - so I think these estimates are way too small.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Bank executives are payed 10s of millions of dollars per year for their amazing contributions to society .
Hedge fund managers pull in hundreds of millions of dollars for all they do to make the world a better place .
Considering Linus 's work benefits society more than anything any of these asshats have ever done by a mile , he alone should be pulling a 10 figure salary - so I think these estimates are way too small .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Bank executives are payed 10s of millions of dollars per year for their amazing contributions to society.
Hedge fund managers pull in hundreds of millions of dollars for all they do to make the world a better place.
Considering Linus's work benefits society more than anything any of these asshats have ever done by a mile, he alone should be pulling a 10 figure salary - so I think these estimates are way too small.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261906</id>
	<title>Re:lol wut?</title>
	<author>hitnrunrambler</author>
	<datestamp>1265137020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><blockquote><div><p>The cost estimation is not of itself important, but it is an important means to and end: that commons-based innovation must receive a higher level of official recognition that would set it as an alternative to decision-makers. Ideally, legal and regulatory framework must allow companies participating on commons-based R&amp;D to generate intangible assets for their contribution to successful projects. Otherwise, expenses must have an equitable tax treatment as a donation to social welfare."</p></div></blockquote><p>Can someone decode this for me?</p><p>Do they want to tax companies that sponsor F/OSS development?  Or subsidize them?  Or do they want the flexibility to do both, and will change their mind depending on which company and which year we're talking about?</p><p>Normally, my in-built translation apparatus resolves "Social Welfare" as "unethical extortion of wealth via the threat of state violence".  But that's perhaps just my American perspective..</p></div><p>In the US there are several very deeply entrenched political biases against the responsibility of the individual to society... so yes your background influences how you are taking both the words "social" and "welfare".</p><p>Try reading it this way instead;<br>"Developing commons-based software contribute towards improving the standard of living in a very real way. Most tax entities provide for tax deductions of goods and services to charitable organizations. If FOSS development was given the same tax-reducing benefit that donations to religious and political organizations have, this would greatly foster (and to an extent subsidize) corporate interest in creating, contributing, and releasing commons-based software."</p><p>If such development contributions can become "intangible assets" (things that have value but not a price tag), then they can be "donated" to a charitable non-profit. The non-profit then assesses a value for the donation, and this amount now becomes tax deductible to the company.</p><p>Since this wasn't clear I'm just guessing that "intangible assets", "equitable tax treatment", and "donation" are the real things that you didn't understand... and "social welfare" was just the political trigger that you focused on.<br>If you genuinely want to learn the complexity of taxes, capitalism, freedom, and responsibility; I'd recommend you change where you get your news from.</p><p>p.s. As a personal recommendation; if you're able to disarm your "political triggers" try NPR instead of the usual network ratings whores. You'll learn a lot rather than be told a lot.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The cost estimation is not of itself important , but it is an important means to and end : that commons-based innovation must receive a higher level of official recognition that would set it as an alternative to decision-makers .
Ideally , legal and regulatory framework must allow companies participating on commons-based R&amp;D to generate intangible assets for their contribution to successful projects .
Otherwise , expenses must have an equitable tax treatment as a donation to social welfare .
" Can someone decode this for me ? Do they want to tax companies that sponsor F/OSS development ?
Or subsidize them ?
Or do they want the flexibility to do both , and will change their mind depending on which company and which year we 're talking about ? Normally , my in-built translation apparatus resolves " Social Welfare " as " unethical extortion of wealth via the threat of state violence " .
But that 's perhaps just my American perspective..In the US there are several very deeply entrenched political biases against the responsibility of the individual to society... so yes your background influences how you are taking both the words " social " and " welfare " .Try reading it this way instead ; " Developing commons-based software contribute towards improving the standard of living in a very real way .
Most tax entities provide for tax deductions of goods and services to charitable organizations .
If FOSS development was given the same tax-reducing benefit that donations to religious and political organizations have , this would greatly foster ( and to an extent subsidize ) corporate interest in creating , contributing , and releasing commons-based software .
" If such development contributions can become " intangible assets " ( things that have value but not a price tag ) , then they can be " donated " to a charitable non-profit .
The non-profit then assesses a value for the donation , and this amount now becomes tax deductible to the company.Since this was n't clear I 'm just guessing that " intangible assets " , " equitable tax treatment " , and " donation " are the real things that you did n't understand... and " social welfare " was just the political trigger that you focused on.If you genuinely want to learn the complexity of taxes , capitalism , freedom , and responsibility ; I 'd recommend you change where you get your news from.p.s .
As a personal recommendation ; if you 're able to disarm your " political triggers " try NPR instead of the usual network ratings whores .
You 'll learn a lot rather than be told a lot .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The cost estimation is not of itself important, but it is an important means to and end: that commons-based innovation must receive a higher level of official recognition that would set it as an alternative to decision-makers.
Ideally, legal and regulatory framework must allow companies participating on commons-based R&amp;D to generate intangible assets for their contribution to successful projects.
Otherwise, expenses must have an equitable tax treatment as a donation to social welfare.
"Can someone decode this for me?Do they want to tax companies that sponsor F/OSS development?
Or subsidize them?
Or do they want the flexibility to do both, and will change their mind depending on which company and which year we're talking about?Normally, my in-built translation apparatus resolves "Social Welfare" as "unethical extortion of wealth via the threat of state violence".
But that's perhaps just my American perspective..In the US there are several very deeply entrenched political biases against the responsibility of the individual to society... so yes your background influences how you are taking both the words "social" and "welfare".Try reading it this way instead;"Developing commons-based software contribute towards improving the standard of living in a very real way.
Most tax entities provide for tax deductions of goods and services to charitable organizations.
If FOSS development was given the same tax-reducing benefit that donations to religious and political organizations have, this would greatly foster (and to an extent subsidize) corporate interest in creating, contributing, and releasing commons-based software.
"If such development contributions can become "intangible assets" (things that have value but not a price tag), then they can be "donated" to a charitable non-profit.
The non-profit then assesses a value for the donation, and this amount now becomes tax deductible to the company.Since this wasn't clear I'm just guessing that "intangible assets", "equitable tax treatment", and "donation" are the real things that you didn't understand... and "social welfare" was just the political trigger that you focused on.If you genuinely want to learn the complexity of taxes, capitalism, freedom, and responsibility; I'd recommend you change where you get your news from.p.s.
As a personal recommendation; if you're able to disarm your "political triggers" try NPR instead of the usual network ratings whores.
You'll learn a lot rather than be told a lot.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260194</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31263610</id>
	<title>That was 4.2BSD</title>
	<author>billstewart</author>
	<datestamp>1265144220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, it grew out of Bell Labs v7 Unix, but the Berkeley Unix work was done at a public university.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , it grew out of Bell Labs v7 Unix , but the Berkeley Unix work was done at a public university .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, it grew out of Bell Labs v7 Unix, but the Berkeley Unix work was done at a public university.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261664</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260458</id>
	<title>that is not how capitilism works in the us</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265131320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Quote 'The cost estimation [implies] that commons-based innovation must receive a higher level of official recognition...."
I don't think that is how the US system works, which is by market recognition.
It doesn't matter how hard you work or how much money you put into it; what matters is if people buy it.
That assumes, somewhat naively, that people are "rational economic actors" and that companies like MS and GOOgLE don't have massive FUD machines (aka marketing)</div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Quote 'The cost estimation [ implies ] that commons-based innovation must receive a higher level of official recognition.... " I do n't think that is how the US system works , which is by market recognition .
It does n't matter how hard you work or how much money you put into it ; what matters is if people buy it .
That assumes , somewhat naively , that people are " rational economic actors " and that companies like MS and GOOgLE do n't have massive FUD machines ( aka marketing )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Quote 'The cost estimation [implies] that commons-based innovation must receive a higher level of official recognition...."
I don't think that is how the US system works, which is by market recognition.
It doesn't matter how hard you work or how much money you put into it; what matters is if people buy it.
That assumes, somewhat naively, that people are "rational economic actors" and that companies like MS and GOOgLE don't have massive FUD machines (aka marketing)
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261810</id>
	<title>Re:31,040 EUR???</title>
	<author>Docasman</author>
	<datestamp>1265136720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Thanks. We, the underpaid, really appreciate that.

Europe is too diverse for those stats to be of any value.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Thanks .
We , the underpaid , really appreciate that .
Europe is too diverse for those stats to be of any value .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thanks.
We, the underpaid, really appreciate that.
Europe is too diverse for those stats to be of any value.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31270390</id>
	<title>Re:31,040 EUR???</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267099380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>What kind of silly number is that? I am 100\% sure there is no single person who earns that little... is there?</p></div><p>You're wrong. A newly grad earns half that in the "poor" countries of EU.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>What kind of silly number is that ?
I am 100 \ % sure there is no single person who earns that little... is there ? You 're wrong .
A newly grad earns half that in the " poor " countries of EU .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What kind of silly number is that?
I am 100\% sure there is no single person who earns that little... is there?You're wrong.
A newly grad earns half that in the "poor" countries of EU.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31277572</id>
	<title>Re:Seems a bit high</title>
	<author>DaVince21</author>
	<datestamp>1267092060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Given a dozen developers and a hard spec, Linux could be developed in 8 to 9 months.</p></div><p>With that amount of code, and the geniuses that are already working on it? And you expect any hardware to work, since thousands of people have worked on the drivers? No chance in hell.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Given a dozen developers and a hard spec , Linux could be developed in 8 to 9 months.With that amount of code , and the geniuses that are already working on it ?
And you expect any hardware to work , since thousands of people have worked on the drivers ?
No chance in hell .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Given a dozen developers and a hard spec, Linux could be developed in 8 to 9 months.With that amount of code, and the geniuses that are already working on it?
And you expect any hardware to work, since thousands of people have worked on the drivers?
No chance in hell.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260170</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31262850</id>
	<title>Re:Seems a bit high</title>
	<author>F.Ultra</author>
	<datestamp>1265141160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Wow, you rewrote a few classes and do now think you know anything about a 12M LOC project... Good luck crunching down all those drivers to 1M, good luck!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Wow , you rewrote a few classes and do now think you know anything about a 12M LOC project... Good luck crunching down all those drivers to 1M , good luck !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wow, you rewrote a few classes and do now think you know anything about a 12M LOC project... Good luck crunching down all those drivers to 1M, good luck!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261414</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261710</id>
	<title>Re:Tax Credits</title>
	<author>cenc</author>
	<datestamp>1265136300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Lets lobby governments all over the world to make it a tax credit.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Lets lobby governments all over the world to make it a tax credit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Lets lobby governments all over the world to make it a tax credit.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260504</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31277670</id>
	<title>Re:So, FLOSS developers;</title>
	<author>DaVince21</author>
	<datestamp>1267092600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>where is your paycheck? Hmmmmm?</p></div><p>Plenty of open-source developers out there coding for companies that have at least some commercial interests. And I'm not talking small companies per say, I'm talking Google, Sun and Intel, for example.</p><p>Me, I just like sharing to the world what I've made so others can potentially improve it. OSS is kind of like a charity if you think about it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>where is your paycheck ?
Hmmmmm ? Plenty of open-source developers out there coding for companies that have at least some commercial interests .
And I 'm not talking small companies per say , I 'm talking Google , Sun and Intel , for example.Me , I just like sharing to the world what I 've made so others can potentially improve it .
OSS is kind of like a charity if you think about it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>where is your paycheck?
Hmmmmm?Plenty of open-source developers out there coding for companies that have at least some commercial interests.
And I'm not talking small companies per say, I'm talking Google, Sun and Intel, for example.Me, I just like sharing to the world what I've made so others can potentially improve it.
OSS is kind of like a charity if you think about it.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260428</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260518</id>
	<title>Congratulations, slaves</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265131680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You've put billions of dollars of effort into something, and you didn't even get PAID for it.</p><p>Hahahahhhahahahahhahaa!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 've put billions of dollars of effort into something , and you did n't even get PAID for it.Hahahahhhahahahahhahaa !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You've put billions of dollars of effort into something, and you didn't even get PAID for it.Hahahahhhahahahahhahaa!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31264682</id>
	<title>Re:Taxes</title>
	<author>mi</author>
	<datestamp>1265105820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>It would be cool if companies involved in open-source development would not have to pay taxes for related activities.</p></div></blockquote><p>A Linux-powered missile targeting-system? An OpenBSD-based content-filter? A NetBSD-server running identity databases?.. FreeBSD traffic-shaping? Are you sure, you'll approve 0-taxes for all of those &mdash; and the "related activities"?

</p><p>Seriously, as if tax-code is not complicated enough (to the point of harming the economy just by the complexity itself) &mdash; exactly by the people like you, who want to give <em>their</em> pet-project some sort of tax advantage... Using an open source software (or whatever else, for which the government is <em>already</em> giving tax-credits) is or <em>ought to be advantageous on its own</em>.

</p><p>Instead we have hundreds of thousands very bright and highly educated (in both Law and Mathematics) people engaged in not doing anything truly productive, but helping others navigate through the complexities of the multi-volume tax codes... Sure, what's one more exception?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It would be cool if companies involved in open-source development would not have to pay taxes for related activities.A Linux-powered missile targeting-system ?
An OpenBSD-based content-filter ?
A NetBSD-server running identity databases ? . .
FreeBSD traffic-shaping ?
Are you sure , you 'll approve 0-taxes for all of those    and the " related activities " ?
Seriously , as if tax-code is not complicated enough ( to the point of harming the economy just by the complexity itself )    exactly by the people like you , who want to give their pet-project some sort of tax advantage... Using an open source software ( or whatever else , for which the government is already giving tax-credits ) is or ought to be advantageous on its own .
Instead we have hundreds of thousands very bright and highly educated ( in both Law and Mathematics ) people engaged in not doing anything truly productive , but helping others navigate through the complexities of the multi-volume tax codes... Sure , what 's one more exception ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It would be cool if companies involved in open-source development would not have to pay taxes for related activities.A Linux-powered missile targeting-system?
An OpenBSD-based content-filter?
A NetBSD-server running identity databases?..
FreeBSD traffic-shaping?
Are you sure, you'll approve 0-taxes for all of those — and the "related activities"?
Seriously, as if tax-code is not complicated enough (to the point of harming the economy just by the complexity itself) — exactly by the people like you, who want to give their pet-project some sort of tax advantage... Using an open source software (or whatever else, for which the government is already giving tax-credits) is or ought to be advantageous on its own.
Instead we have hundreds of thousands very bright and highly educated (in both Law and Mathematics) people engaged in not doing anything truly productive, but helping others navigate through the complexities of the multi-volume tax codes... Sure, what's one more exception?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260184</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31262442</id>
	<title>Re:And yet...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265139180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That is because Linux sucks. This isn't a troll, it's the honest, hair tearing truth after I just fucked around with trying to get Linux running on one of my computers. Where to begin?</p><p>1) First, the installation disc refused to boot. Just crashes immediately after loading.<br>2) Worked around that to boot a basic ISO image directly off of the internal hard drive using Unetbootin. Installation gives numerous errors and I must force the installation to continue.<br>3) After hours of waiting for the install to finish, it finally does so and my computer starts making a beeping sound as if a key were held down.<br>4) Checked keys to make sure none of them were stuck. None were, therefore it is a bug in Linux.<br>5) After booting to the desktop for the first time, I get hundreds of instances of some screenshot utility that thinks some hotkey is continuously being pressed when none are.<br>6) Noticing that both KDE and Gnome are extremely sluggish, I logout and choose FluxBox as the window manager.<br>7) Bad move. FluxBox is even more slow and causes my hard drive to grind constantly. I have to wait several minutes just for my logout click to be registered.<br>8) Screen flickers and shows multiple fullscreen commandline prompts that just cycle on their own.<br>9) FluxBox desktop comes back up without any input and without presenting login screen even though I chose to logout. Hard disk grinding excessively still. After about 2 minutes, screen goes blank, then computer locks itself and presents a password prompt despite not enough time elapsing for screensaver to kick in.<br>10) Enter correct password, but password prompt refuses it and claims it's not valid. No option to logout or shutdown accessible at all, so forced to power off PC.<br>11) PC powers back on and the filesystem check goes haywire about some file fragmentation. Takes 5 minutes to scan and another 3 minutes to present a login screen.<br>12) Choose Gnome and login. Another 2 minutes of hard drive grind before the desktop is fully usable.<br>13) Screenshot dialog starts popping up multiple times again. I go to keyboard preferences and remove the hotkeys connected to taking screenshots.<br>14) A couple of minutes later out of the blue, screenshot dialog starts popping up numerous times again even though I removed all hotkey references to it.<br>15) Fuck this. I've formatted the drive and put XP back on there.</p><p>As I said, this is not a troll. I just spent a full day trying to get this working. At best the system comes up, grinds the hard drive a lot, causes the system to always be in full power mode, numerous random screenshot dialog popups and very poor performance. At worst it locks itself and refuses my completely valid password for no reason.</p><p>When I went to reinstall XP it was easy as pie. The installation took one hour, everything worked fine on the first shot and performance levels are where they should be.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That is because Linux sucks .
This is n't a troll , it 's the honest , hair tearing truth after I just fucked around with trying to get Linux running on one of my computers .
Where to begin ? 1 ) First , the installation disc refused to boot .
Just crashes immediately after loading.2 ) Worked around that to boot a basic ISO image directly off of the internal hard drive using Unetbootin .
Installation gives numerous errors and I must force the installation to continue.3 ) After hours of waiting for the install to finish , it finally does so and my computer starts making a beeping sound as if a key were held down.4 ) Checked keys to make sure none of them were stuck .
None were , therefore it is a bug in Linux.5 ) After booting to the desktop for the first time , I get hundreds of instances of some screenshot utility that thinks some hotkey is continuously being pressed when none are.6 ) Noticing that both KDE and Gnome are extremely sluggish , I logout and choose FluxBox as the window manager.7 ) Bad move .
FluxBox is even more slow and causes my hard drive to grind constantly .
I have to wait several minutes just for my logout click to be registered.8 ) Screen flickers and shows multiple fullscreen commandline prompts that just cycle on their own.9 ) FluxBox desktop comes back up without any input and without presenting login screen even though I chose to logout .
Hard disk grinding excessively still .
After about 2 minutes , screen goes blank , then computer locks itself and presents a password prompt despite not enough time elapsing for screensaver to kick in.10 ) Enter correct password , but password prompt refuses it and claims it 's not valid .
No option to logout or shutdown accessible at all , so forced to power off PC.11 ) PC powers back on and the filesystem check goes haywire about some file fragmentation .
Takes 5 minutes to scan and another 3 minutes to present a login screen.12 ) Choose Gnome and login .
Another 2 minutes of hard drive grind before the desktop is fully usable.13 ) Screenshot dialog starts popping up multiple times again .
I go to keyboard preferences and remove the hotkeys connected to taking screenshots.14 ) A couple of minutes later out of the blue , screenshot dialog starts popping up numerous times again even though I removed all hotkey references to it.15 ) Fuck this .
I 've formatted the drive and put XP back on there.As I said , this is not a troll .
I just spent a full day trying to get this working .
At best the system comes up , grinds the hard drive a lot , causes the system to always be in full power mode , numerous random screenshot dialog popups and very poor performance .
At worst it locks itself and refuses my completely valid password for no reason.When I went to reinstall XP it was easy as pie .
The installation took one hour , everything worked fine on the first shot and performance levels are where they should be .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That is because Linux sucks.
This isn't a troll, it's the honest, hair tearing truth after I just fucked around with trying to get Linux running on one of my computers.
Where to begin?1) First, the installation disc refused to boot.
Just crashes immediately after loading.2) Worked around that to boot a basic ISO image directly off of the internal hard drive using Unetbootin.
Installation gives numerous errors and I must force the installation to continue.3) After hours of waiting for the install to finish, it finally does so and my computer starts making a beeping sound as if a key were held down.4) Checked keys to make sure none of them were stuck.
None were, therefore it is a bug in Linux.5) After booting to the desktop for the first time, I get hundreds of instances of some screenshot utility that thinks some hotkey is continuously being pressed when none are.6) Noticing that both KDE and Gnome are extremely sluggish, I logout and choose FluxBox as the window manager.7) Bad move.
FluxBox is even more slow and causes my hard drive to grind constantly.
I have to wait several minutes just for my logout click to be registered.8) Screen flickers and shows multiple fullscreen commandline prompts that just cycle on their own.9) FluxBox desktop comes back up without any input and without presenting login screen even though I chose to logout.
Hard disk grinding excessively still.
After about 2 minutes, screen goes blank, then computer locks itself and presents a password prompt despite not enough time elapsing for screensaver to kick in.10) Enter correct password, but password prompt refuses it and claims it's not valid.
No option to logout or shutdown accessible at all, so forced to power off PC.11) PC powers back on and the filesystem check goes haywire about some file fragmentation.
Takes 5 minutes to scan and another 3 minutes to present a login screen.12) Choose Gnome and login.
Another 2 minutes of hard drive grind before the desktop is fully usable.13) Screenshot dialog starts popping up multiple times again.
I go to keyboard preferences and remove the hotkeys connected to taking screenshots.14) A couple of minutes later out of the blue, screenshot dialog starts popping up numerous times again even though I removed all hotkey references to it.15) Fuck this.
I've formatted the drive and put XP back on there.As I said, this is not a troll.
I just spent a full day trying to get this working.
At best the system comes up, grinds the hard drive a lot, causes the system to always be in full power mode, numerous random screenshot dialog popups and very poor performance.
At worst it locks itself and refuses my completely valid password for no reason.When I went to reinstall XP it was easy as pie.
The installation took one hour, everything worked fine on the first shot and performance levels are where they should be.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260154</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260278</id>
	<title>Re:One BILLIOIN DOLLARS</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265130540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They're just trying to start a new meme.</p><p>In European Union this meme would cost ONE BILLION DOLLARS to develop.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They 're just trying to start a new meme.In European Union this meme would cost ONE BILLION DOLLARS to develop .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They're just trying to start a new meme.In European Union this meme would cost ONE BILLION DOLLARS to develop.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260108</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31271342</id>
	<title>Re:Seems a bit high</title>
	<author>diethelm</author>
	<datestamp>1267109100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Does your ass hurt after pulling those numbers out of it?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Does your ass hurt after pulling those numbers out of it ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Does your ass hurt after pulling those numbers out of it?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261414</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260336</id>
	<title>Re:Seems a bit high</title>
	<author>FlyingBishop</author>
	<datestamp>1265130840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Most of that development time is not initial implementation. It's debugging and interoperability. Initial implementation is trivial, yes, but initial implementations do not a platform make.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Most of that development time is not initial implementation .
It 's debugging and interoperability .
Initial implementation is trivial , yes , but initial implementations do not a platform make .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most of that development time is not initial implementation.
It's debugging and interoperability.
Initial implementation is trivial, yes, but initial implementations do not a platform make.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260170</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260096</id>
	<title>Oops...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265129700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just think how many cans of Mountain Dew we could have bought with that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just think how many cans of Mountain Dew we could have bought with that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just think how many cans of Mountain Dew we could have bought with that.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31263824</id>
	<title>Re:Seems a bit high</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265102040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You must be correct. I think Linus is copy-pasting the same file over and over for the last 12 years.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You must be correct .
I think Linus is copy-pasting the same file over and over for the last 12 years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You must be correct.
I think Linus is copy-pasting the same file over and over for the last 12 years.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261414</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260476</id>
	<title>Average annual base salary 31,040 euro</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265131440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>An average developer won't be able to write the Linux kernel.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>An average developer wo n't be able to write the Linux kernel .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>An average developer won't be able to write the Linux kernel.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260568</id>
	<title>Re:And yet...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265131920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's all about the apps and drivers - mostly the apps.</p><p>It does not matter how fast, secure, reliable, or inexpensive an OS may be; if it doesn't run the apps, it's not of much use.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's all about the apps and drivers - mostly the apps.It does not matter how fast , secure , reliable , or inexpensive an OS may be ; if it does n't run the apps , it 's not of much use .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's all about the apps and drivers - mostly the apps.It does not matter how fast, secure, reliable, or inexpensive an OS may be; if it doesn't run the apps, it's not of much use.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260154</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260290</id>
	<title>Re:Taxes</title>
	<author>ircmaxell</author>
	<datestamp>1265130600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I agree.  I do disagree with one line in the summary tho,<blockquote><div><p> Ideally, legal and regulatory framework must allow companies participating on commons-based R&amp;D to generate intangible assets for their contribution to successful projects</p></div></blockquote><p>Why should it be limited to successful projects?  Since this is open source, even a failed project can be hugely beneficial to society in terms of code, ideas or even just experience.  Plus, who would declare success?  Would a "successful project" be one that gets 1000 downloads a month?  Or would it be a project that has a certain amount of community involvement?  These questions (and others) are way to vague to justify that clause.  Simply allow companies to deduct a portion of taxes for time donated to an open source project as a charitable donation.  Sure, there will be abuse, but you can't stop abuse, you can only try to limit it at a huge expense...  Plus, I think that the benefits will outweigh the negatives to such a system...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree .
I do disagree with one line in the summary tho , Ideally , legal and regulatory framework must allow companies participating on commons-based R&amp;D to generate intangible assets for their contribution to successful projectsWhy should it be limited to successful projects ?
Since this is open source , even a failed project can be hugely beneficial to society in terms of code , ideas or even just experience .
Plus , who would declare success ?
Would a " successful project " be one that gets 1000 downloads a month ?
Or would it be a project that has a certain amount of community involvement ?
These questions ( and others ) are way to vague to justify that clause .
Simply allow companies to deduct a portion of taxes for time donated to an open source project as a charitable donation .
Sure , there will be abuse , but you ca n't stop abuse , you can only try to limit it at a huge expense... Plus , I think that the benefits will outweigh the negatives to such a system.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree.
I do disagree with one line in the summary tho, Ideally, legal and regulatory framework must allow companies participating on commons-based R&amp;D to generate intangible assets for their contribution to successful projectsWhy should it be limited to successful projects?
Since this is open source, even a failed project can be hugely beneficial to society in terms of code, ideas or even just experience.
Plus, who would declare success?
Would a "successful project" be one that gets 1000 downloads a month?
Or would it be a project that has a certain amount of community involvement?
These questions (and others) are way to vague to justify that clause.
Simply allow companies to deduct a portion of taxes for time donated to an open source project as a charitable donation.
Sure, there will be abuse, but you can't stop abuse, you can only try to limit it at a huge expense...  Plus, I think that the benefits will outweigh the negatives to such a system...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260184</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31262320</id>
	<title>Re:Ramifications</title>
	<author>amorsen</author>
	<datestamp>1265138640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Am I allowed to write off my FOSS development as a charitable donation on my taxes?</p></div><p>Only if you claim the (fictional) income first. If you then donate the code to a registered charity, you should be able to pull it off. Best case you'll end up not paying taxes for the fictional income.</p><p>It's a bit easier to just not claim the fictional income, isn't it?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Am I allowed to write off my FOSS development as a charitable donation on my taxes ? Only if you claim the ( fictional ) income first .
If you then donate the code to a registered charity , you should be able to pull it off .
Best case you 'll end up not paying taxes for the fictional income.It 's a bit easier to just not claim the fictional income , is n't it ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Am I allowed to write off my FOSS development as a charitable donation on my taxes?Only if you claim the (fictional) income first.
If you then donate the code to a registered charity, you should be able to pull it off.
Best case you'll end up not paying taxes for the fictional income.It's a bit easier to just not claim the fictional income, isn't it?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260408</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260508</id>
	<title>Beh</title>
	<author>Hognoxious</author>
	<datestamp>1265131620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Did they factor in two-hour lunch breaks and the afternoon nap?  I guess this calcultion was something to keep amused with as the day goes by.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Did they factor in two-hour lunch breaks and the afternoon nap ?
I guess this calcultion was something to keep amused with as the day goes by .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Did they factor in two-hour lunch breaks and the afternoon nap?
I guess this calcultion was something to keep amused with as the day goes by.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261674</id>
	<title>Re:31,040 EUR???</title>
	<author>MartinSchou</author>
	<datestamp>1265136180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>With a bit bad luck (in a big city), you couldnt even pay for a car</p></div></blockquote><p>Depending on the big city, a car isn't a good investment anyway. Quite a lot of the large EU cities have excellent public transport options, respect for cyclists and parking that costs close to that of renting a studio flat<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</p><p>Essentially you can pretty much compare most large EU cities to that of Manhattan. You <b>can</b> own a car, but unless you work outside the city it's a waste of money</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>With a bit bad luck ( in a big city ) , you couldnt even pay for a carDepending on the big city , a car is n't a good investment anyway .
Quite a lot of the large EU cities have excellent public transport options , respect for cyclists and parking that costs close to that of renting a studio flat ...Essentially you can pretty much compare most large EU cities to that of Manhattan .
You can own a car , but unless you work outside the city it 's a waste of money</tokentext>
<sentencetext>With a bit bad luck (in a big city), you couldnt even pay for a carDepending on the big city, a car isn't a good investment anyway.
Quite a lot of the large EU cities have excellent public transport options, respect for cyclists and parking that costs close to that of renting a studio flat ...Essentially you can pretty much compare most large EU cities to that of Manhattan.
You can own a car, but unless you work outside the city it's a waste of money
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260452</id>
	<title>Yeah, it would cost a billion to develop...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265131320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yet it's been around nearly 20 years, it's given away free, it has advocates that make the mac fanboys look calm and reasonable, and it still hasn't cracked the 3\% mark in desktop market.  If anyone actually funded its development to the tune of a billion dollars, it would be considered a catastrophic failure on par with Enron, Duke Nukem Forever and pets.com.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yet it 's been around nearly 20 years , it 's given away free , it has advocates that make the mac fanboys look calm and reasonable , and it still has n't cracked the 3 \ % mark in desktop market .
If anyone actually funded its development to the tune of a billion dollars , it would be considered a catastrophic failure on par with Enron , Duke Nukem Forever and pets.com .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yet it's been around nearly 20 years, it's given away free, it has advocates that make the mac fanboys look calm and reasonable, and it still hasn't cracked the 3\% mark in desktop market.
If anyone actually funded its development to the tune of a billion dollars, it would be considered a catastrophic failure on par with Enron, Duke Nukem Forever and pets.com.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31262662</id>
	<title>Re:lol wut?</title>
	<author>bmajik</author>
	<datestamp>1265140140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I am a little concerned when something done with the power of government can "mean anything".  That's a recipie for problems.  There are actually a number of people in the US that would argue that Churches and other religiously affiliated entities should stop receiving preferential tax treatment because the benefits are conditional and are distributed "unfairly".</p><p>I think this is actually the case with all things done in the name of "social welare".  Some individuals receive benefits and others do not, and the distribution mechanism is always conditional to some extent.</p><p>I don't think it is ludicrous to question the benefits to "Society" afforded by F/OSS.  I tried to do it in a quasi-numeric method in a different response on this thread.  I agree with the \_sentiment\_ that the world is better off with F/OSS than without it.  However, what governments should be funding in the name of "benefit to all" is a different matter, and requires discussion rather than mere sentiment or claims of self-evident truth.</p><p>The article is about the attempt to quantify the the \_value\_ of one F/OSS project, probably as the first step of this political endeavour.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I am a little concerned when something done with the power of government can " mean anything " .
That 's a recipie for problems .
There are actually a number of people in the US that would argue that Churches and other religiously affiliated entities should stop receiving preferential tax treatment because the benefits are conditional and are distributed " unfairly " .I think this is actually the case with all things done in the name of " social welare " .
Some individuals receive benefits and others do not , and the distribution mechanism is always conditional to some extent.I do n't think it is ludicrous to question the benefits to " Society " afforded by F/OSS .
I tried to do it in a quasi-numeric method in a different response on this thread .
I agree with the \ _sentiment \ _ that the world is better off with F/OSS than without it .
However , what governments should be funding in the name of " benefit to all " is a different matter , and requires discussion rather than mere sentiment or claims of self-evident truth.The article is about the attempt to quantify the the \ _value \ _ of one F/OSS project , probably as the first step of this political endeavour .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am a little concerned when something done with the power of government can "mean anything".
That's a recipie for problems.
There are actually a number of people in the US that would argue that Churches and other religiously affiliated entities should stop receiving preferential tax treatment because the benefits are conditional and are distributed "unfairly".I think this is actually the case with all things done in the name of "social welare".
Some individuals receive benefits and others do not, and the distribution mechanism is always conditional to some extent.I don't think it is ludicrous to question the benefits to "Society" afforded by F/OSS.
I tried to do it in a quasi-numeric method in a different response on this thread.
I agree with the \_sentiment\_ that the world is better off with F/OSS than without it.
However, what governments should be funding in the name of "benefit to all" is a different matter, and requires discussion rather than mere sentiment or claims of self-evident truth.The article is about the attempt to quantify the the \_value\_ of one F/OSS project, probably as the first step of this political endeavour.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260536</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31262960</id>
	<title>Re:Yeah, it would cost a billion to develop...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265141640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yeah, because computing begins and ends on the desktop.  I mean, all
of those servers, cellphones, embedded systems, supercomputers,
toasters, and badgers out there running Linux don't really exist.
That's just a scary bedtime story MS execs tell their children to
frighten them.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , because computing begins and ends on the desktop .
I mean , all of those servers , cellphones , embedded systems , supercomputers , toasters , and badgers out there running Linux do n't really exist .
That 's just a scary bedtime story MS execs tell their children to frighten them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, because computing begins and ends on the desktop.
I mean, all
of those servers, cellphones, embedded systems, supercomputers,
toasters, and badgers out there running Linux don't really exist.
That's just a scary bedtime story MS execs tell their children to
frighten them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260452</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260994</id>
	<title>Re:Seems a bit high</title>
	<author>Lumpy</author>
	<datestamp>1265133480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>His only reference is the Windows OS code. and that is banged out by a room full of monkeys... the typically deliver a line of code every 4 seconds.  And from the quality of the product,  It's spider monkeys.</p><p>Adobe products are written by Golden Snub Nose Monkeys.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>His only reference is the Windows OS code .
and that is banged out by a room full of monkeys... the typically deliver a line of code every 4 seconds .
And from the quality of the product , It 's spider monkeys.Adobe products are written by Golden Snub Nose Monkeys .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>His only reference is the Windows OS code.
and that is banged out by a room full of monkeys... the typically deliver a line of code every 4 seconds.
And from the quality of the product,  It's spider monkeys.Adobe products are written by Golden Snub Nose Monkeys.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260524</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261332</id>
	<title>31,040 EUR???</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265134920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>An average annual base salary for a developer of 31,040 EUR</p></div><p>What kind of silly number is that? I am 100\% sure there is no single person who earns that little... is there?<br>Definitey not with all the taxes included. That would result in 2299 EUR a month (plus 1.5 months of holiday and christmas bonus.)<br>Or about 1250 EUR net money on your bank account. Or just below 8 EUR (net) an hour.<br>As a programmer?? Just... Silly.</p><p>That wouldn&rsquo;t leave you with much, after apartment, food, phone/internet and basic clothing &amp; co. With a bit bad luck (in a big city), you couldn&rsquo;t even pay for a car. (= expensive fuel)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>An average annual base salary for a developer of 31,040 EURWhat kind of silly number is that ?
I am 100 \ % sure there is no single person who earns that little... is there ? Definitey not with all the taxes included .
That would result in 2299 EUR a month ( plus 1.5 months of holiday and christmas bonus .
) Or about 1250 EUR net money on your bank account .
Or just below 8 EUR ( net ) an hour.As a programmer ? ?
Just... Silly.That wouldn    t leave you with much , after apartment , food , phone/internet and basic clothing &amp; co. With a bit bad luck ( in a big city ) , you couldn    t even pay for a car .
( = expensive fuel )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>An average annual base salary for a developer of 31,040 EURWhat kind of silly number is that?
I am 100\% sure there is no single person who earns that little... is there?Definitey not with all the taxes included.
That would result in 2299 EUR a month (plus 1.5 months of holiday and christmas bonus.
)Or about 1250 EUR net money on your bank account.
Or just below 8 EUR (net) an hour.As a programmer??
Just... Silly.That wouldn’t leave you with much, after apartment, food, phone/internet and basic clothing &amp; co. With a bit bad luck (in a big city), you couldn’t even pay for a car.
(= expensive fuel)
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260520</id>
	<title>Salary</title>
	<author>JohnFluxx</author>
	<datestamp>1265131680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>31,000 euro for a \_kernel\_ developer??  Probably closer to 3 times that.  I know it's an average, but do you really think the maintainer of a memory system, or the scsi stack, etc  are worth less than 6 figures?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>31,000 euro for a \ _kernel \ _ developer ? ?
Probably closer to 3 times that .
I know it 's an average , but do you really think the maintainer of a memory system , or the scsi stack , etc are worth less than 6 figures ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>31,000 euro for a \_kernel\_ developer??
Probably closer to 3 times that.
I know it's an average, but do you really think the maintainer of a memory system, or the scsi stack, etc  are worth less than 6 figures?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31267928</id>
	<title>Re:Ramifications</title>
	<author>ajlisows</author>
	<datestamp>1265125740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Was this always the case?  Back about 8 years ago I did some tech work for a local branch of the Amvets.  I had a full time job at the time but occasionally did some consulting at varying rates depending on the type of job....but usually at least $40 per hour.  They told me they could only pay me about $15/hour.</p><p>The last guy that did their computer stuff really burned them badly and I wanted to help them out so I accepted.  After I accepted the leader of the chapter told me that I could bill him my normal hourly rate and take the $15/hour in cash and the rest in a tax deduction.  Note that I had already accepted so he wasn't trying to rope me into this.  At the time, I had no reason to itemize my taxes so I didn't bother even looking into it, but this guy (as head of a Non-Profit) seemed pretty certain that this could be done.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Was this always the case ?
Back about 8 years ago I did some tech work for a local branch of the Amvets .
I had a full time job at the time but occasionally did some consulting at varying rates depending on the type of job....but usually at least $ 40 per hour .
They told me they could only pay me about $ 15/hour.The last guy that did their computer stuff really burned them badly and I wanted to help them out so I accepted .
After I accepted the leader of the chapter told me that I could bill him my normal hourly rate and take the $ 15/hour in cash and the rest in a tax deduction .
Note that I had already accepted so he was n't trying to rope me into this .
At the time , I had no reason to itemize my taxes so I did n't bother even looking into it , but this guy ( as head of a Non-Profit ) seemed pretty certain that this could be done .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Was this always the case?
Back about 8 years ago I did some tech work for a local branch of the Amvets.
I had a full time job at the time but occasionally did some consulting at varying rates depending on the type of job....but usually at least $40 per hour.
They told me they could only pay me about $15/hour.The last guy that did their computer stuff really burned them badly and I wanted to help them out so I accepted.
After I accepted the leader of the chapter told me that I could bill him my normal hourly rate and take the $15/hour in cash and the rest in a tax deduction.
Note that I had already accepted so he wasn't trying to rope me into this.
At the time, I had no reason to itemize my taxes so I didn't bother even looking into it, but this guy (as head of a Non-Profit) seemed pretty certain that this could be done.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260852</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31262222</id>
	<title>Re:31,040 EUR???</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265138280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>European Union includes Romania and Bulgaria too...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>European Union includes Romania and Bulgaria too.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>European Union includes Romania and Bulgaria too...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261664</id>
	<title>Re:Taxes</title>
	<author>Elektroschock</author>
	<datestamp>1265136120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The government should provide operating systems as a public service. That would make a whole lot of sense.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The government should provide operating systems as a public service .
That would make a whole lot of sense .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The government should provide operating systems as a public service.
That would make a whole lot of sense.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260184</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261830</id>
	<title>Re:lol wut?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265136780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Can someone decode this for me?</p></div><p>"Donation to Social Welfare" means that an action benefits society as a whole.  In this case the author is saying that companies that improve the kernel are doing something that benefits others, and perhaps governments should set up incentives to encourage this good behavior.  A tax break ("equitable tax treatment") is given as an example.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Normally, my in-built translation apparatus resolves "Social Welfare" as "unethical extortion of wealth via the threat of state violence".  But that's perhaps just my American perspective..</p></div><p>Your in-built translation seems to be broken by your ideology.  The fact that you believe something should not keep you from being able to read, even if you disagree with the author.  Please don't insult Americans by pretending that this failure of your intellect inflicts all of us.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Can someone decode this for me ?
" Donation to Social Welfare " means that an action benefits society as a whole .
In this case the author is saying that companies that improve the kernel are doing something that benefits others , and perhaps governments should set up incentives to encourage this good behavior .
A tax break ( " equitable tax treatment " ) is given as an example.Normally , my in-built translation apparatus resolves " Social Welfare " as " unethical extortion of wealth via the threat of state violence " .
But that 's perhaps just my American perspective..Your in-built translation seems to be broken by your ideology .
The fact that you believe something should not keep you from being able to read , even if you disagree with the author .
Please do n't insult Americans by pretending that this failure of your intellect inflicts all of us .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Can someone decode this for me?
"Donation to Social Welfare" means that an action benefits society as a whole.
In this case the author is saying that companies that improve the kernel are doing something that benefits others, and perhaps governments should set up incentives to encourage this good behavior.
A tax break ("equitable tax treatment") is given as an example.Normally, my in-built translation apparatus resolves "Social Welfare" as "unethical extortion of wealth via the threat of state violence".
But that's perhaps just my American perspective..Your in-built translation seems to be broken by your ideology.
The fact that you believe something should not keep you from being able to read, even if you disagree with the author.
Please don't insult Americans by pretending that this failure of your intellect inflicts all of us.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260194</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261120</id>
	<title>Actually</title>
	<author>koinu</author>
	<datestamp>1265134020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I bet, even when you offer 1.4 mrd USD (aka "billion USD" in US) to commercial delelopers and it would take 20 years, they would not manage to write something like Linux. It would rather be a concept on paper or on powerpoint slides. But... they would take the money anyway.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I bet , even when you offer 1.4 mrd USD ( aka " billion USD " in US ) to commercial delelopers and it would take 20 years , they would not manage to write something like Linux .
It would rather be a concept on paper or on powerpoint slides .
But... they would take the money anyway .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I bet, even when you offer 1.4 mrd USD (aka "billion USD" in US) to commercial delelopers and it would take 20 years, they would not manage to write something like Linux.
It would rather be a concept on paper or on powerpoint slides.
But... they would take the money anyway.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31264334</id>
	<title>you think that's a lot?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265104380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>How much would it cost if it were developed for a government contract?!</htmltext>
<tokenext>How much would it cost if it were developed for a government contract ?
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How much would it cost if it were developed for a government contract?
!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31262076</id>
	<title>Re:31,040 EUR???</title>
	<author>bill\_mcgonigle</author>
	<datestamp>1265137740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>As a programmer?? Just... Silly.</i></p><p>No, as a kernel architect, who, to gain parity, are smart enough not to make the mistakes Linus did in his early years.  So that you'd wind up with a 2.6.3x kernel at the end, not a 0.9, 2.2, 2.4 or 2.6.0x.</p><p>Since the Linux guys are all busy, they'd probably have to go raid Sun for developers - I don't think the world is lousy with experienced unemployed kernel architects.  You might be able to divvy up the work among architects and grunt programmers, but at least double the estimate to average out the high end.</p><p>There's no point in economic estimates that pretend about non-existent surpluses, this is going to be an expensive recruiting effort.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As a programmer ? ?
Just... Silly.No , as a kernel architect , who , to gain parity , are smart enough not to make the mistakes Linus did in his early years .
So that you 'd wind up with a 2.6.3x kernel at the end , not a 0.9 , 2.2 , 2.4 or 2.6.0x.Since the Linux guys are all busy , they 'd probably have to go raid Sun for developers - I do n't think the world is lousy with experienced unemployed kernel architects .
You might be able to divvy up the work among architects and grunt programmers , but at least double the estimate to average out the high end.There 's no point in economic estimates that pretend about non-existent surpluses , this is going to be an expensive recruiting effort .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a programmer??
Just... Silly.No, as a kernel architect, who, to gain parity, are smart enough not to make the mistakes Linus did in his early years.
So that you'd wind up with a 2.6.3x kernel at the end, not a 0.9, 2.2, 2.4 or 2.6.0x.Since the Linux guys are all busy, they'd probably have to go raid Sun for developers - I don't think the world is lousy with experienced unemployed kernel architects.
You might be able to divvy up the work among architects and grunt programmers, but at least double the estimate to average out the high end.There's no point in economic estimates that pretend about non-existent surpluses, this is going to be an expensive recruiting effort.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31266694</id>
	<title>Re:Seems a bit high</title>
	<author>LeeMeador</author>
	<datestamp>1265115360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Rewrite in APL and its only 13 lines of code. (Showing my age, huh?)<br>

Rewrite it in Lisp and its 120 Million parentheses.<br>

And if you use the old cut-and-paste-code-reuse pattern it doesn't take as long to generate one line of code anyway.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Rewrite in APL and its only 13 lines of code .
( Showing my age , huh ?
) Rewrite it in Lisp and its 120 Million parentheses .
And if you use the old cut-and-paste-code-reuse pattern it does n't take as long to generate one line of code anyway .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Rewrite in APL and its only 13 lines of code.
(Showing my age, huh?
)

Rewrite it in Lisp and its 120 Million parentheses.
And if you use the old cut-and-paste-code-reuse pattern it doesn't take as long to generate one line of code anyway.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261414</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260684</id>
	<title>Re:Ramifications</title>
	<author>vlm</author>
	<datestamp>1265132340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Wait a minute...Am I allowed to write off my FOSS development as a charitable donation on my taxes?</p></div><p>My friend the electrician informs me that when a church gives him a receipt for installing an outlet or whatever, he gets to deduct his labor on his taxes as a gift to the church.  Its not such a bad deal for him, if he has nothing better to do at that time, assuming that the church gets the parts donated from a store or the church pays for the parts.  Technically I guess he's increasing his liability insurance premium by the value of his gift, and he has to drive his truck to the church, so its not all gravy, just mostly.</p><p>Get a church to "hire you" to maintain their website, then<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Am I allowed to charge the $50 an hour I think I'm worth?</p></div><p>You would be OK.  To prevent being accused of fraud, your church either needs to do competitive bidding, have some kind of long term business relationship, or pay standard union rates.  Which works pretty well for my union electrician friend, not so well for you.  Chalk that up as reason number 0x1010110110101011101 that programmers should unionize as a skilled trade...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Wait a minute...Am I allowed to write off my FOSS development as a charitable donation on my taxes ? My friend the electrician informs me that when a church gives him a receipt for installing an outlet or whatever , he gets to deduct his labor on his taxes as a gift to the church .
Its not such a bad deal for him , if he has nothing better to do at that time , assuming that the church gets the parts donated from a store or the church pays for the parts .
Technically I guess he 's increasing his liability insurance premium by the value of his gift , and he has to drive his truck to the church , so its not all gravy , just mostly.Get a church to " hire you " to maintain their website , then ...Am I allowed to charge the $ 50 an hour I think I 'm worth ? You would be OK. To prevent being accused of fraud , your church either needs to do competitive bidding , have some kind of long term business relationship , or pay standard union rates .
Which works pretty well for my union electrician friend , not so well for you .
Chalk that up as reason number 0x1010110110101011101 that programmers should unionize as a skilled trade.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wait a minute...Am I allowed to write off my FOSS development as a charitable donation on my taxes?My friend the electrician informs me that when a church gives him a receipt for installing an outlet or whatever, he gets to deduct his labor on his taxes as a gift to the church.
Its not such a bad deal for him, if he has nothing better to do at that time, assuming that the church gets the parts donated from a store or the church pays for the parts.
Technically I guess he's increasing his liability insurance premium by the value of his gift, and he has to drive his truck to the church, so its not all gravy, just mostly.Get a church to "hire you" to maintain their website, then ...Am I allowed to charge the $50 an hour I think I'm worth?You would be OK.  To prevent being accused of fraud, your church either needs to do competitive bidding, have some kind of long term business relationship, or pay standard union rates.
Which works pretty well for my union electrician friend, not so well for you.
Chalk that up as reason number 0x1010110110101011101 that programmers should unionize as a skilled trade...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260408</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260876</id>
	<title>What a silly estimate</title>
	<author>Ancient\_Hacker</author>
	<datestamp>1265133000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No, what you'd get for a billion Euros is that many lines of code.   No idea if the code would be any good.  But usually when managers are fixated on the LOC, you get lots of LOC, not necessarily GOOD or FAST code.  Just lots of it.   Been there, seen it,  upchucked, many times.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No , what you 'd get for a billion Euros is that many lines of code .
No idea if the code would be any good .
But usually when managers are fixated on the LOC , you get lots of LOC , not necessarily GOOD or FAST code .
Just lots of it .
Been there , seen it , upchucked , many times .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, what you'd get for a billion Euros is that many lines of code.
No idea if the code would be any good.
But usually when managers are fixated on the LOC, you get lots of LOC, not necessarily GOOD or FAST code.
Just lots of it.
Been there, seen it,  upchucked, many times.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260408</id>
	<title>Ramifications</title>
	<author>Verdatum</author>
	<datestamp>1265131140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>Wait a minute...Am I allowed to write off my FOSS development as a charitable donation on my taxes?  Am I allowed to charge the $50 an hour I think I'm worth?  I'm sure this has been asked before, but it's the first I've ever actually thought about it...</htmltext>
<tokenext>Wait a minute...Am I allowed to write off my FOSS development as a charitable donation on my taxes ?
Am I allowed to charge the $ 50 an hour I think I 'm worth ?
I 'm sure this has been asked before , but it 's the first I 've ever actually thought about it.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wait a minute...Am I allowed to write off my FOSS development as a charitable donation on my taxes?
Am I allowed to charge the $50 an hour I think I'm worth?
I'm sure this has been asked before, but it's the first I've ever actually thought about it...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260852</id>
	<title>Re:Ramifications</title>
	<author>GigsVT</author>
	<datestamp>1265132940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No.  Donations of time or labor aren't deductible.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No .
Donations of time or labor are n't deductible .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No.
Donations of time or labor aren't deductible.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260408</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260898</id>
	<title>Re:Salary</title>
	<author>slimjim8094</author>
	<datestamp>1265133120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>On average and probably not full time. Considering kernel hacking is probably (on average) 1/3 of a full job, it's not too bad.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>On average and probably not full time .
Considering kernel hacking is probably ( on average ) 1/3 of a full job , it 's not too bad .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On average and probably not full time.
Considering kernel hacking is probably (on average) 1/3 of a full job, it's not too bad.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260520</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260674</id>
	<title>Re:Taxes</title>
	<author>clarkkent09</author>
	<datestamp>1265132280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Companies involved in open-source projects generally intend to profit from it. It's not a charitable donation but a marketing strategy.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Companies involved in open-source projects generally intend to profit from it .
It 's not a charitable donation but a marketing strategy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Companies involved in open-source projects generally intend to profit from it.
It's not a charitable donation but a marketing strategy.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260184</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260474</id>
	<title>I don't get the point.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265131440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Ideally, legal and regulatory framework must allow companies participating on commons-based R&amp;D to generate intangible assets for their contribution to successful projects. Otherwise, expenses must have an equitable tax treatment as a donation to social welfare.</p></div><p>This doesn't make any sense to me. Since the code has been released as open source, it isn't really an asset of the company that wrote it anymore than it is to anyone else who uses it. It isn't something that could be liquidated to pay off debts, and allowing them to specify it as an asset on their balance sheets seems like just another way to distort the books and confuse investors. I don't see any good coming out of that.</p><p>Secondly, I don't see the point in letting them receive tax deductions for their contributions. They made these contributions because it was in their best interest to do so regardless of the tax status. And while it is nice that their contributions help the community as a whole, they themselves are helped by contributions that others have made. If they weren't taxed on the later, why should they get a deduction for the former? Open source is already provides economic and social benefits to those that participate in it's development - government wealth distribution is not needed in a system that already does so inherently.</p><p>Finally, even if I did agree with these goals, I don't see how having an estimate of the cost of the kernel as a whole would help - what matters are the specific contributions of the company and there are better ways to figure that.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Ideally , legal and regulatory framework must allow companies participating on commons-based R&amp;D to generate intangible assets for their contribution to successful projects .
Otherwise , expenses must have an equitable tax treatment as a donation to social welfare.This does n't make any sense to me .
Since the code has been released as open source , it is n't really an asset of the company that wrote it anymore than it is to anyone else who uses it .
It is n't something that could be liquidated to pay off debts , and allowing them to specify it as an asset on their balance sheets seems like just another way to distort the books and confuse investors .
I do n't see any good coming out of that.Secondly , I do n't see the point in letting them receive tax deductions for their contributions .
They made these contributions because it was in their best interest to do so regardless of the tax status .
And while it is nice that their contributions help the community as a whole , they themselves are helped by contributions that others have made .
If they were n't taxed on the later , why should they get a deduction for the former ?
Open source is already provides economic and social benefits to those that participate in it 's development - government wealth distribution is not needed in a system that already does so inherently.Finally , even if I did agree with these goals , I do n't see how having an estimate of the cost of the kernel as a whole would help - what matters are the specific contributions of the company and there are better ways to figure that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ideally, legal and regulatory framework must allow companies participating on commons-based R&amp;D to generate intangible assets for their contribution to successful projects.
Otherwise, expenses must have an equitable tax treatment as a donation to social welfare.This doesn't make any sense to me.
Since the code has been released as open source, it isn't really an asset of the company that wrote it anymore than it is to anyone else who uses it.
It isn't something that could be liquidated to pay off debts, and allowing them to specify it as an asset on their balance sheets seems like just another way to distort the books and confuse investors.
I don't see any good coming out of that.Secondly, I don't see the point in letting them receive tax deductions for their contributions.
They made these contributions because it was in their best interest to do so regardless of the tax status.
And while it is nice that their contributions help the community as a whole, they themselves are helped by contributions that others have made.
If they weren't taxed on the later, why should they get a deduction for the former?
Open source is already provides economic and social benefits to those that participate in it's development - government wealth distribution is not needed in a system that already does so inherently.Finally, even if I did agree with these goals, I don't see how having an estimate of the cost of the kernel as a whole would help - what matters are the specific contributions of the company and there are better ways to figure that.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260628</id>
	<title>Re:Ramifications</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265132160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>LOL, and no.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>LOL , and no .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>LOL, and no.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260408</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261550</id>
	<title>These numbers...</title>
	<author>bytesex</author>
	<datestamp>1265135700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Is that street- or dealer-value ?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is that street- or dealer-value ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is that street- or dealer-value ?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31271942</id>
	<title>Re:31,040 EUR???</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267112580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, welcome to Spain. It is different, it truly is. Have you ever heard the term <a href="http://translate.google.es/translate?js=y&amp;prev=\_t&amp;hl=es&amp;ie=UTF-8&amp;layout=1&amp;eotf=1&amp;u=http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mileurista&amp;sl=es&amp;tl=en" title="google.es" rel="nofollow">mileurismo</a> [google.es]?</p><p> <i>Disclaimer: I'm spaniard.</i> </p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , welcome to Spain .
It is different , it truly is .
Have you ever heard the term mileurismo [ google.es ] ?
Disclaimer : I 'm spaniard .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, welcome to Spain.
It is different, it truly is.
Have you ever heard the term mileurismo [google.es]?
Disclaimer: I'm spaniard. </sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31266404</id>
	<title>Re:I'm not sure COCOMO is a good measure</title>
	<author>elronxenu</author>
	<datestamp>1265113500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I doubt that your average salary code monkey could redevelop the Linux kernel no matter how many bodies were thrown at the problem. We'd end up with Windows.
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I doubt that your average salary code monkey could redevelop the Linux kernel no matter how many bodies were thrown at the problem .
We 'd end up with Windows .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I doubt that your average salary code monkey could redevelop the Linux kernel no matter how many bodies were thrown at the problem.
We'd end up with Windows.
</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260200</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260590</id>
	<title>Re:Oops...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265131980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>at that price, I'd consider outsourcing rendering php webpages to india. How many line of php an indian may interpret by hand? how many line of php are interpreted by all the linux web servers?</htmltext>
<tokenext>at that price , I 'd consider outsourcing rendering php webpages to india .
How many line of php an indian may interpret by hand ?
how many line of php are interpreted by all the linux web servers ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>at that price, I'd consider outsourcing rendering php webpages to india.
How many line of php an indian may interpret by hand?
how many line of php are interpreted by all the linux web servers?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260096</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31263098</id>
	<title>Re:Seems a bit high</title>
	<author>Spliffster</author>
	<datestamp>1265142120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Kudos for your contribution.<br><br>You just forgot to mention, that you have probably also added a few bugs "along the way"<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:P<br><br>Cheers c(\_),<br>-S</htmltext>
<tokenext>Kudos for your contribution.You just forgot to mention , that you have probably also added a few bugs " along the way " : PCheers c ( \ _ ) ,-S</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Kudos for your contribution.You just forgot to mention, that you have probably also added a few bugs "along the way" :PCheers c(\_),-S</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261414</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261106</id>
	<title>Re:Salary</title>
	<author>ooooli</author>
	<datestamp>1265133960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>31,000 euro for a \_kernel\_ developer??  Probably closer to 3 times that.  I know it's an average, but do you really think the maintainer of a memory system, or the scsi stack, etc  are worth less than 6 figures?</p></div><p>Keep in mind that that kernel developer would be working on the scsi stack of a commie plot...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>31,000 euro for a \ _kernel \ _ developer ? ?
Probably closer to 3 times that .
I know it 's an average , but do you really think the maintainer of a memory system , or the scsi stack , etc are worth less than 6 figures ? Keep in mind that that kernel developer would be working on the scsi stack of a commie plot.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>31,000 euro for a \_kernel\_ developer??
Probably closer to 3 times that.
I know it's an average, but do you really think the maintainer of a memory system, or the scsi stack, etc  are worth less than 6 figures?Keep in mind that that kernel developer would be working on the scsi stack of a commie plot...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260520</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261498</id>
	<title>Re:I don't get the point.</title>
	<author>dwandy</author>
	<datestamp>1265135580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I don't see the point in letting them receive tax deductions for their contributions. They made these contributions because it was in their best interest to do so regardless of the tax status.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... government wealth distribution is not needed in a system that already does so inherently.</p></div></blockquote><p>
The basis for copyright is that the public wishes to increase the amount of work in the public domain. Copyright is a deal between creators and public whereby the public believes that there will be more works generated (and end up public domain) by giving a temporary monopoly to creators. The key in the deal, however, is not to reward the creator, but to generate works for the public domain.*<br> <br>
I would suggest, therefore, that giving (tax) incentives for open source software is in line with this policy. People who contribute to open source are giving up their monopoly rights and their work is available immediately for remixing into new works**. Since time is money I would suggest that anyone who is willing to give up their monopoly period should be rewarded.
<br> <br>
This isn't a unique concept: Corporations get all kinds of special and additional tax deductions for various activities such as R&amp;D. We do this with the same line of reasoning: we want more R&amp;D, so we provide an incentive so we can reap the rewards.
<br> <br>
Lastly, it should be pointed out that the level of incentive (how rich is this program) should be inversely proportional to the duration of copyright. In other words if copyright lasts longer I've given up more by immediately making it available for remixing and should therefore get a greater incentive. If copyright is short than I haven't given up much and should require less incentive.</p><p>
* perpetual copyright extension has killed this, but that is another topic.<br>
** Yes, it's not public domain, but they no longer have a monopoly on the distribution of the work.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't see the point in letting them receive tax deductions for their contributions .
They made these contributions because it was in their best interest to do so regardless of the tax status .
... government wealth distribution is not needed in a system that already does so inherently .
The basis for copyright is that the public wishes to increase the amount of work in the public domain .
Copyright is a deal between creators and public whereby the public believes that there will be more works generated ( and end up public domain ) by giving a temporary monopoly to creators .
The key in the deal , however , is not to reward the creator , but to generate works for the public domain .
* I would suggest , therefore , that giving ( tax ) incentives for open source software is in line with this policy .
People who contribute to open source are giving up their monopoly rights and their work is available immediately for remixing into new works * * .
Since time is money I would suggest that anyone who is willing to give up their monopoly period should be rewarded .
This is n't a unique concept : Corporations get all kinds of special and additional tax deductions for various activities such as R&amp;D .
We do this with the same line of reasoning : we want more R&amp;D , so we provide an incentive so we can reap the rewards .
Lastly , it should be pointed out that the level of incentive ( how rich is this program ) should be inversely proportional to the duration of copyright .
In other words if copyright lasts longer I 've given up more by immediately making it available for remixing and should therefore get a greater incentive .
If copyright is short than I have n't given up much and should require less incentive .
* perpetual copyright extension has killed this , but that is another topic .
* * Yes , it 's not public domain , but they no longer have a monopoly on the distribution of the work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't see the point in letting them receive tax deductions for their contributions.
They made these contributions because it was in their best interest to do so regardless of the tax status.
... government wealth distribution is not needed in a system that already does so inherently.
The basis for copyright is that the public wishes to increase the amount of work in the public domain.
Copyright is a deal between creators and public whereby the public believes that there will be more works generated (and end up public domain) by giving a temporary monopoly to creators.
The key in the deal, however, is not to reward the creator, but to generate works for the public domain.
* 
I would suggest, therefore, that giving (tax) incentives for open source software is in line with this policy.
People who contribute to open source are giving up their monopoly rights and their work is available immediately for remixing into new works**.
Since time is money I would suggest that anyone who is willing to give up their monopoly period should be rewarded.
This isn't a unique concept: Corporations get all kinds of special and additional tax deductions for various activities such as R&amp;D.
We do this with the same line of reasoning: we want more R&amp;D, so we provide an incentive so we can reap the rewards.
Lastly, it should be pointed out that the level of incentive (how rich is this program) should be inversely proportional to the duration of copyright.
In other words if copyright lasts longer I've given up more by immediately making it available for remixing and should therefore get a greater incentive.
If copyright is short than I haven't given up much and should require less incentive.
* perpetual copyright extension has killed this, but that is another topic.
** Yes, it's not public domain, but they no longer have a monopoly on the distribution of the work.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260474</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260162</id>
	<title>They didn't factor in the cost of pizzas</title>
	<author>Viol8</author>
	<datestamp>1265129940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That 1 billion would soon seem like chicken feed!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 1 billion would soon seem like chicken feed !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That 1 billion would soon seem like chicken feed!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260108</id>
	<title>One BILLIOIN DOLLARS</title>
	<author>Archangel Michael</author>
	<datestamp>1265129700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>/pinky to mouth<nobr> <wbr></nobr>....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>/pinky to mouth ... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>/pinky to mouth ....</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261546</id>
	<title>Re:Ramifications</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265135700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This brings up an interesting point. It might be possible for some OSS projects in certain countries to apply for charitable or non-profit status, and issue receipts for donated code. I don't think this has been done before, but it would make for an interesting model for developing a community.</p><p>For those wanting tax write-offs, I found an interesting post on slashdot from a couple years back.<br>http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/10/18/1752210</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This brings up an interesting point .
It might be possible for some OSS projects in certain countries to apply for charitable or non-profit status , and issue receipts for donated code .
I do n't think this has been done before , but it would make for an interesting model for developing a community.For those wanting tax write-offs , I found an interesting post on slashdot from a couple years back.http : //news.slashdot.org/article.pl ? sid = 08/10/18/1752210</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This brings up an interesting point.
It might be possible for some OSS projects in certain countries to apply for charitable or non-profit status, and issue receipts for donated code.
I don't think this has been done before, but it would make for an interesting model for developing a community.For those wanting tax write-offs, I found an interesting post on slashdot from a couple years back.http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/10/18/1752210</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260408</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31267780</id>
	<title>Re:Taxes</title>
	<author>ajlisows</author>
	<datestamp>1265124480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't think I can agree with you there.  Let's just say a large group of developers works at a large manufacturing firm and they write a whole bunch of code to help the organization run.  The company turns out to be pretty cool and tells the development group that they can release the stuff they wrote as open source and even post updates as they make them.  Unfortunately...nobody finds them useful as they have a very niche product with a very unique way of doing business.  The company benefits greatly from their project, society benefits very little, if at all.  Should they get a tax break?</p><p>Take another company that produces Open Source software (and does nothing but) and releases it free as in speech and beer. However, it is a very complex package and they sell very profitable service contracts.  Sure!  Society benefits from the open source projects but the company benefits as well.</p><p>Compare this to the model for some manufacturing companies...the one I work with is a good example.  All of the cad drawings for our products are freely available, as are our installation manuals.  Pretty much "Open Source". Someone could easily build our product from the information. We do not make much money from selling the product.  We DO make money installing the product and servicing the units after the warranty period is up.  Since the drawings are pretty much public, should the engineering have been tax free?</p><p>What if a company claims their developers have been working on things they would like to open source, but the projects keep failing.  In the meantime, they are churning out successful closed source apps and spending a lot less time than they claim on these open source projects.</p><p>Mind you, I'm pro-open source and am generally anti-higher taxes...... Allowing open-source development to be tax free seems like an idea that could get out of hand as far as abuse of the system.  </p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't think I can agree with you there .
Let 's just say a large group of developers works at a large manufacturing firm and they write a whole bunch of code to help the organization run .
The company turns out to be pretty cool and tells the development group that they can release the stuff they wrote as open source and even post updates as they make them .
Unfortunately...nobody finds them useful as they have a very niche product with a very unique way of doing business .
The company benefits greatly from their project , society benefits very little , if at all .
Should they get a tax break ? Take another company that produces Open Source software ( and does nothing but ) and releases it free as in speech and beer .
However , it is a very complex package and they sell very profitable service contracts .
Sure ! Society benefits from the open source projects but the company benefits as well.Compare this to the model for some manufacturing companies...the one I work with is a good example .
All of the cad drawings for our products are freely available , as are our installation manuals .
Pretty much " Open Source " .
Someone could easily build our product from the information .
We do not make much money from selling the product .
We DO make money installing the product and servicing the units after the warranty period is up .
Since the drawings are pretty much public , should the engineering have been tax free ? What if a company claims their developers have been working on things they would like to open source , but the projects keep failing .
In the meantime , they are churning out successful closed source apps and spending a lot less time than they claim on these open source projects.Mind you , I 'm pro-open source and am generally anti-higher taxes...... Allowing open-source development to be tax free seems like an idea that could get out of hand as far as abuse of the system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't think I can agree with you there.
Let's just say a large group of developers works at a large manufacturing firm and they write a whole bunch of code to help the organization run.
The company turns out to be pretty cool and tells the development group that they can release the stuff they wrote as open source and even post updates as they make them.
Unfortunately...nobody finds them useful as they have a very niche product with a very unique way of doing business.
The company benefits greatly from their project, society benefits very little, if at all.
Should they get a tax break?Take another company that produces Open Source software (and does nothing but) and releases it free as in speech and beer.
However, it is a very complex package and they sell very profitable service contracts.
Sure!  Society benefits from the open source projects but the company benefits as well.Compare this to the model for some manufacturing companies...the one I work with is a good example.
All of the cad drawings for our products are freely available, as are our installation manuals.
Pretty much "Open Source".
Someone could easily build our product from the information.
We do not make much money from selling the product.
We DO make money installing the product and servicing the units after the warranty period is up.
Since the drawings are pretty much public, should the engineering have been tax free?What if a company claims their developers have been working on things they would like to open source, but the projects keep failing.
In the meantime, they are churning out successful closed source apps and spending a lot less time than they claim on these open source projects.Mind you, I'm pro-open source and am generally anti-higher taxes...... Allowing open-source development to be tax free seems like an idea that could get out of hand as far as abuse of the system.  </sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260184</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261572</id>
	<title>Re:31,040 EUR???</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265135820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Ever hear of Eastern Europe?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Ever hear of Eastern Europe ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ever hear of Eastern Europe?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260346</id>
	<title>Re:One BILLIOIN DOLLARS</title>
	<author>larry bagina</author>
	<datestamp>1265130840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>more like ass-to-mouth, based on the linux devs I've met.</htmltext>
<tokenext>more like ass-to-mouth , based on the linux devs I 've met .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>more like ass-to-mouth, based on the linux devs I've met.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260108</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261726</id>
	<title>Re:I don't get the point.</title>
	<author>bzipitidoo</author>
	<datestamp>1265136360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I don't see the point in letting them receive tax deductions for their contributions.</p></div><p>It's as much or more about showing F/OSS some respect, not just money.

</p><p>Do you think F/OSS is good?  A worthwhile endeavor?  A benefit to society?  And, so, we could use more?  I presume yes to all that.  Then how do we get more?  Strengthen intellectual property laws even more?  Change nothing?

</p><p>The likes of IBM help develop F/OSS because it is profitable to do so.  It helps them sell hardware.  But F/OSS is under constant attack from monopolists who fear it as a threat to their way of business and the system of IP law they profess belief in.  We've had a decades long holy war going on over this, and the general public has barely noticed.  That F/OSS has nevertheless advanced in spite of all that the Microsofts of the world have done to kill it, that the monopolist camp has resorted to dirty tricks by the hundreds and still failed, and that they've been caught over and over violating their own professed principles and exposed as hypocrites and fools, shows which side is stronger.  As for IBM, I'm thinking the bitter split they had with MS, and the failure of OS/2 helped them see the light.  Most others have not.  A tax break would do much more than merely ease funding problems.  It would not be yet another giveaway to the undeserving with massive lobbying campaigns, nor hopefully seen as such, it would be some justice for valuable work that many agree is not sufficiently appreciated.  How rich are Torvalds and Stallman, really?  They might not even be upper class.  Compare that with Gates' status as the richest person ever.  Hardly fair.  Maybe Sun would still be independent.  It would be greater official recognition that might serve to disarm the attackers and turn the heat down on this wasteful and expensive holy war.  Some might even change sides.  Imagine if MS were to change sides.

</p><p>The US has tried to push people into homeownership, on the idea that this turns people into stakeholders, that it makes for a more prosperous, stable society.  They've done this by specifically allowing mortgage payments to be deducted from taxable income.  So why not make open source work deductible?  Rental payments aren't deductible because society wants to encourage home ownership.  The ugly side of the American Dream is that if a homeowner is respected, those who have "failed" to own a home are disrespected.  I've seen and experienced the low grade discrimination renters get just for being renters, the notion that if you can't swing a home, you should at least strive to spend as much money as possible on the rent so as not to be "low rent".  In the eyes of too many, that's the status of F/OSS now:  "low rent".  This is also why America is so hostile to pedestrians.  Only criminals and losers walk-- those whose time is not valuable or valued.  Car ownership is the current Esq.  "You get what you pay for" implies that F/OSS is junk.  Many studies have shown that people value things more if they pay more, irrespective of the actual utility and value.  People are always using mental shortcuts, and equating cost with value is extremely popular, and reasonably reliable.  Paying more for F/OSS would get their attention.

</p><p>There are other helpful moves.  Another convincing one is patronage, in the sense of being a customer and user.  Use more F/OSS in government.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't see the point in letting them receive tax deductions for their contributions.It 's as much or more about showing F/OSS some respect , not just money .
Do you think F/OSS is good ?
A worthwhile endeavor ?
A benefit to society ?
And , so , we could use more ?
I presume yes to all that .
Then how do we get more ?
Strengthen intellectual property laws even more ?
Change nothing ?
The likes of IBM help develop F/OSS because it is profitable to do so .
It helps them sell hardware .
But F/OSS is under constant attack from monopolists who fear it as a threat to their way of business and the system of IP law they profess belief in .
We 've had a decades long holy war going on over this , and the general public has barely noticed .
That F/OSS has nevertheless advanced in spite of all that the Microsofts of the world have done to kill it , that the monopolist camp has resorted to dirty tricks by the hundreds and still failed , and that they 've been caught over and over violating their own professed principles and exposed as hypocrites and fools , shows which side is stronger .
As for IBM , I 'm thinking the bitter split they had with MS , and the failure of OS/2 helped them see the light .
Most others have not .
A tax break would do much more than merely ease funding problems .
It would not be yet another giveaway to the undeserving with massive lobbying campaigns , nor hopefully seen as such , it would be some justice for valuable work that many agree is not sufficiently appreciated .
How rich are Torvalds and Stallman , really ?
They might not even be upper class .
Compare that with Gates ' status as the richest person ever .
Hardly fair .
Maybe Sun would still be independent .
It would be greater official recognition that might serve to disarm the attackers and turn the heat down on this wasteful and expensive holy war .
Some might even change sides .
Imagine if MS were to change sides .
The US has tried to push people into homeownership , on the idea that this turns people into stakeholders , that it makes for a more prosperous , stable society .
They 've done this by specifically allowing mortgage payments to be deducted from taxable income .
So why not make open source work deductible ?
Rental payments are n't deductible because society wants to encourage home ownership .
The ugly side of the American Dream is that if a homeowner is respected , those who have " failed " to own a home are disrespected .
I 've seen and experienced the low grade discrimination renters get just for being renters , the notion that if you ca n't swing a home , you should at least strive to spend as much money as possible on the rent so as not to be " low rent " .
In the eyes of too many , that 's the status of F/OSS now : " low rent " .
This is also why America is so hostile to pedestrians .
Only criminals and losers walk-- those whose time is not valuable or valued .
Car ownership is the current Esq .
" You get what you pay for " implies that F/OSS is junk .
Many studies have shown that people value things more if they pay more , irrespective of the actual utility and value .
People are always using mental shortcuts , and equating cost with value is extremely popular , and reasonably reliable .
Paying more for F/OSS would get their attention .
There are other helpful moves .
Another convincing one is patronage , in the sense of being a customer and user .
Use more F/OSS in government .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't see the point in letting them receive tax deductions for their contributions.It's as much or more about showing F/OSS some respect, not just money.
Do you think F/OSS is good?
A worthwhile endeavor?
A benefit to society?
And, so, we could use more?
I presume yes to all that.
Then how do we get more?
Strengthen intellectual property laws even more?
Change nothing?
The likes of IBM help develop F/OSS because it is profitable to do so.
It helps them sell hardware.
But F/OSS is under constant attack from monopolists who fear it as a threat to their way of business and the system of IP law they profess belief in.
We've had a decades long holy war going on over this, and the general public has barely noticed.
That F/OSS has nevertheless advanced in spite of all that the Microsofts of the world have done to kill it, that the monopolist camp has resorted to dirty tricks by the hundreds and still failed, and that they've been caught over and over violating their own professed principles and exposed as hypocrites and fools, shows which side is stronger.
As for IBM, I'm thinking the bitter split they had with MS, and the failure of OS/2 helped them see the light.
Most others have not.
A tax break would do much more than merely ease funding problems.
It would not be yet another giveaway to the undeserving with massive lobbying campaigns, nor hopefully seen as such, it would be some justice for valuable work that many agree is not sufficiently appreciated.
How rich are Torvalds and Stallman, really?
They might not even be upper class.
Compare that with Gates' status as the richest person ever.
Hardly fair.
Maybe Sun would still be independent.
It would be greater official recognition that might serve to disarm the attackers and turn the heat down on this wasteful and expensive holy war.
Some might even change sides.
Imagine if MS were to change sides.
The US has tried to push people into homeownership, on the idea that this turns people into stakeholders, that it makes for a more prosperous, stable society.
They've done this by specifically allowing mortgage payments to be deducted from taxable income.
So why not make open source work deductible?
Rental payments aren't deductible because society wants to encourage home ownership.
The ugly side of the American Dream is that if a homeowner is respected, those who have "failed" to own a home are disrespected.
I've seen and experienced the low grade discrimination renters get just for being renters, the notion that if you can't swing a home, you should at least strive to spend as much money as possible on the rent so as not to be "low rent".
In the eyes of too many, that's the status of F/OSS now:  "low rent".
This is also why America is so hostile to pedestrians.
Only criminals and losers walk-- those whose time is not valuable or valued.
Car ownership is the current Esq.
"You get what you pay for" implies that F/OSS is junk.
Many studies have shown that people value things more if they pay more, irrespective of the actual utility and value.
People are always using mental shortcuts, and equating cost with value is extremely popular, and reasonably reliable.
Paying more for F/OSS would get their attention.
There are other helpful moves.
Another convincing one is patronage, in the sense of being a customer and user.
Use more F/OSS in government.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260474</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260504</id>
	<title>Tax Credits</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265131620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What would be lovely is if I could get tax credits for committing to open products that further help mankind in my spare time!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What would be lovely is if I could get tax credits for committing to open products that further help mankind in my spare time !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What would be lovely is if I could get tax credits for committing to open products that further help mankind in my spare time!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261398</id>
	<title>Corporations need intangible assets?</title>
	<author>clyde\_cadiddlehopper</author>
	<datestamp>1265135160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yeah, like monkeys need pants.  Haven't we had enough of you-hide-it-we-find-it accounting?  The cost of this work should be realized when the funds are spent, not in some theoretical future when the benefits of FOSS may come back to the roost.  Why?  Because the primary benefit of FOSS is the avoidance of those costs in the future.  To handle it otherwise would be double counting the benefit.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , like monkeys need pants .
Have n't we had enough of you-hide-it-we-find-it accounting ?
The cost of this work should be realized when the funds are spent , not in some theoretical future when the benefits of FOSS may come back to the roost .
Why ? Because the primary benefit of FOSS is the avoidance of those costs in the future .
To handle it otherwise would be double counting the benefit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, like monkeys need pants.
Haven't we had enough of you-hide-it-we-find-it accounting?
The cost of this work should be realized when the funds are spent, not in some theoretical future when the benefits of FOSS may come back to the roost.
Why?  Because the primary benefit of FOSS is the avoidance of those costs in the future.
To handle it otherwise would be double counting the benefit.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31262398</id>
	<title>Re:Ramifications</title>
	<author>hitnrunrambler</author>
	<datestamp>1265139000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't really know how<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. works as far as notifications regarding responses down the chain... so here's a link to consider.<br><a href="http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1561726&amp;cid=31262354" title="slashdot.org" rel="nofollow">http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1561726&amp;cid=31262354</a> [slashdot.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't really know how / .
works as far as notifications regarding responses down the chain... so here 's a link to consider.http : //linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl ? sid = 1561726&amp;cid = 31262354 [ slashdot.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't really know how /.
works as far as notifications regarding responses down the chain... so here's a link to consider.http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1561726&amp;cid=31262354 [slashdot.org]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260408</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31262234</id>
	<title>Re:lol wut?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265138280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>"Social Welfare" can mean anything</p></div><p>Yes, but it in the US it only means "commie-style income distribution". It's a perfect example of reversed (corporate) doublespeak: By systematically equating social welfare with communism, the US government has succesfully tainted even the slightest notion of progressive tax systems (i.e. the largest shoulders carry the largest burden). The GP is a perfect example of that (but at least he is aware of it). It has come to the point where any non-uniform tax reform will be resisted by all layers of the population, regardless of whether they would benefit from it or not.</p><p>At least that's what it looks like from my non-American perspective...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" Social Welfare " can mean anythingYes , but it in the US it only means " commie-style income distribution " .
It 's a perfect example of reversed ( corporate ) doublespeak : By systematically equating social welfare with communism , the US government has succesfully tainted even the slightest notion of progressive tax systems ( i.e .
the largest shoulders carry the largest burden ) .
The GP is a perfect example of that ( but at least he is aware of it ) .
It has come to the point where any non-uniform tax reform will be resisted by all layers of the population , regardless of whether they would benefit from it or not.At least that 's what it looks like from my non-American perspective.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Social Welfare" can mean anythingYes, but it in the US it only means "commie-style income distribution".
It's a perfect example of reversed (corporate) doublespeak: By systematically equating social welfare with communism, the US government has succesfully tainted even the slightest notion of progressive tax systems (i.e.
the largest shoulders carry the largest burden).
The GP is a perfect example of that (but at least he is aware of it).
It has come to the point where any non-uniform tax reform will be resisted by all layers of the population, regardless of whether they would benefit from it or not.At least that's what it looks like from my non-American perspective...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260536</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261024</id>
	<title>Re:Salary</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265133600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If  said kernel developers were actually working in Oviedo, the city where they researched this, 31K is more than most would ever make. Your typical graduate in his first local programming job gets 15K at best. 30K is a top level salary over there. Last summer, no local company ever came close to offering me half of what I make in an affordable town in the American midwest.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If said kernel developers were actually working in Oviedo , the city where they researched this , 31K is more than most would ever make .
Your typical graduate in his first local programming job gets 15K at best .
30K is a top level salary over there .
Last summer , no local company ever came close to offering me half of what I make in an affordable town in the American midwest .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If  said kernel developers were actually working in Oviedo, the city where they researched this, 31K is more than most would ever make.
Your typical graduate in his first local programming job gets 15K at best.
30K is a top level salary over there.
Last summer, no local company ever came close to offering me half of what I make in an affordable town in the American midwest.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260520</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31277554</id>
	<title>Re:And yet...</title>
	<author>DaVince21</author>
	<datestamp>1267091940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sure they would.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sure they would .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sure they would.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260154</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260194</id>
	<title>lol wut?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265130060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>The cost estimation is not of itself important, but it is an important means to and end: that commons-based innovation must receive a higher level of official recognition that would set it as an alternative to decision-makers. Ideally, legal and regulatory framework must allow companies participating on commons-based R&amp;D to generate intangible assets for their contribution to successful projects. Otherwise, expenses must have an equitable tax treatment as a donation to social welfare."</p></div></blockquote><p>Can someone decode this for me?</p><p>Do they want to tax companies that sponsor F/OSS development?  Or subsidize them?  Or do they want the flexibility to do both, and will change their mind depending on which company and which year we're talking about?</p><p>Normally, my in-built translation apparatus resolves "Social Welfare" as "unethical extortion of wealth via the threat of state violence".  But that's perhaps just my American perspective..</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The cost estimation is not of itself important , but it is an important means to and end : that commons-based innovation must receive a higher level of official recognition that would set it as an alternative to decision-makers .
Ideally , legal and regulatory framework must allow companies participating on commons-based R&amp;D to generate intangible assets for their contribution to successful projects .
Otherwise , expenses must have an equitable tax treatment as a donation to social welfare .
" Can someone decode this for me ? Do they want to tax companies that sponsor F/OSS development ?
Or subsidize them ?
Or do they want the flexibility to do both , and will change their mind depending on which company and which year we 're talking about ? Normally , my in-built translation apparatus resolves " Social Welfare " as " unethical extortion of wealth via the threat of state violence " .
But that 's perhaps just my American perspective. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The cost estimation is not of itself important, but it is an important means to and end: that commons-based innovation must receive a higher level of official recognition that would set it as an alternative to decision-makers.
Ideally, legal and regulatory framework must allow companies participating on commons-based R&amp;D to generate intangible assets for their contribution to successful projects.
Otherwise, expenses must have an equitable tax treatment as a donation to social welfare.
"Can someone decode this for me?Do they want to tax companies that sponsor F/OSS development?
Or subsidize them?
Or do they want the flexibility to do both, and will change their mind depending on which company and which year we're talking about?Normally, my in-built translation apparatus resolves "Social Welfare" as "unethical extortion of wealth via the threat of state violence".
But that's perhaps just my American perspective..
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31395912</id>
	<title>Re:Seems a bit high</title>
	<author>cheekyboy</author>
	<datestamp>1267971420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Depends if 6m lines are comments, you arent going to reduce the comment lines, or is that 12m lines true code lines not including comments/empty lines/braces.</p><p>Sure any one can reduce 6 lines of IFs into one IF statement that looks more ugly.</p><p>Total lines should not 100\% be used as a measurement of goodness.</p><p>Can we measure total functions plus average/mean lines of code per function?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Depends if 6m lines are comments , you arent going to reduce the comment lines , or is that 12m lines true code lines not including comments/empty lines/braces.Sure any one can reduce 6 lines of IFs into one IF statement that looks more ugly.Total lines should not 100 \ % be used as a measurement of goodness.Can we measure total functions plus average/mean lines of code per function ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Depends if 6m lines are comments, you arent going to reduce the comment lines, or is that 12m lines true code lines not including comments/empty lines/braces.Sure any one can reduce 6 lines of IFs into one IF statement that looks more ugly.Total lines should not 100\% be used as a measurement of goodness.Can we measure total functions plus average/mean lines of code per function?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261414</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31277716</id>
	<title>Re:Congratulations, slaves</title>
	<author>DaVince21</author>
	<datestamp>1267092780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Some did. Mostly the ones working on it full-time for their companies.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Some did .
Mostly the ones working on it full-time for their companies .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Some did.
Mostly the ones working on it full-time for their companies.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260518</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260170</id>
	<title>Seems a bit high</title>
	<author>BadAnalogyGuy</author>
	<datestamp>1265129940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Given a dozen developers and a hard spec, Linux could be developed in 8 to 9 months.</p><p>Now, the beauty of OSS is that are no hard specs, so that could indefinitely extend the development time, I suppose.</p><p>But to say that the OS couldn't be developed for under a million bucks is pretty fucking stupid. Maybe if they got their tongues off of Linus's dick for a minute or two they could refer to actual development schedules rather than make-believe schedules based on projects done by idiot students.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Given a dozen developers and a hard spec , Linux could be developed in 8 to 9 months.Now , the beauty of OSS is that are no hard specs , so that could indefinitely extend the development time , I suppose.But to say that the OS could n't be developed for under a million bucks is pretty fucking stupid .
Maybe if they got their tongues off of Linus 's dick for a minute or two they could refer to actual development schedules rather than make-believe schedules based on projects done by idiot students .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Given a dozen developers and a hard spec, Linux could be developed in 8 to 9 months.Now, the beauty of OSS is that are no hard specs, so that could indefinitely extend the development time, I suppose.But to say that the OS couldn't be developed for under a million bucks is pretty fucking stupid.
Maybe if they got their tongues off of Linus's dick for a minute or two they could refer to actual development schedules rather than make-believe schedules based on projects done by idiot students.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31266806</id>
	<title>Re:And yet...</title>
	<author>nagnamer</author>
	<datestamp>1265116260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I just fucked around with trying to get Linux running on one of my computers.</p></div><p>Here's how it goes when I fuck around with running Linux:</p><p>1) pop in the install disc, and it boots cleanly into a nice menu<br>2) select "Space invaders" and play for a while, just for kicks<br>3) reboot and select "Install"<br>4) go through a few screens, partitioning, package selection, yada yada<br>5) system asks me to edit some conf files, and I do, set root password<br>6) reboot<br>7) install my favourite x, y, and z, set up my user account, password, confirm password</p><p>What? It only takes around an hour? Yes, an hour's work installing <em>everything</em>. Rinse, repeat, on my laptop, and the other laptop.</p><p>Thing is, I do this once in two years, and only when I get bored with the current distro, and want to try new things. Otherwise, I don't even need to do all this.</p><p>As with everyone who's got problems with Linux, and thinks Linux <em>must</em> suck because of that: Linux <em>does</em> work for some people. Really. I think it's actually good that unfortunate people like you can still use an alternative, like Windows or OSX.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I just fucked around with trying to get Linux running on one of my computers.Here 's how it goes when I fuck around with running Linux : 1 ) pop in the install disc , and it boots cleanly into a nice menu2 ) select " Space invaders " and play for a while , just for kicks3 ) reboot and select " Install " 4 ) go through a few screens , partitioning , package selection , yada yada5 ) system asks me to edit some conf files , and I do , set root password6 ) reboot7 ) install my favourite x , y , and z , set up my user account , password , confirm passwordWhat ?
It only takes around an hour ?
Yes , an hour 's work installing everything .
Rinse , repeat , on my laptop , and the other laptop.Thing is , I do this once in two years , and only when I get bored with the current distro , and want to try new things .
Otherwise , I do n't even need to do all this.As with everyone who 's got problems with Linux , and thinks Linux must suck because of that : Linux does work for some people .
Really. I think it 's actually good that unfortunate people like you can still use an alternative , like Windows or OSX .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I just fucked around with trying to get Linux running on one of my computers.Here's how it goes when I fuck around with running Linux:1) pop in the install disc, and it boots cleanly into a nice menu2) select "Space invaders" and play for a while, just for kicks3) reboot and select "Install"4) go through a few screens, partitioning, package selection, yada yada5) system asks me to edit some conf files, and I do, set root password6) reboot7) install my favourite x, y, and z, set up my user account, password, confirm passwordWhat?
It only takes around an hour?
Yes, an hour's work installing everything.
Rinse, repeat, on my laptop, and the other laptop.Thing is, I do this once in two years, and only when I get bored with the current distro, and want to try new things.
Otherwise, I don't even need to do all this.As with everyone who's got problems with Linux, and thinks Linux must suck because of that: Linux does work for some people.
Really. I think it's actually good that unfortunate people like you can still use an alternative, like Windows or OSX.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31262442</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260184</id>
	<title>Taxes</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265129940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It would be cool if companies involved in open-source development would not have to pay taxes for related activities.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It would be cool if companies involved in open-source development would not have to pay taxes for related activities .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It would be cool if companies involved in open-source development would not have to pay taxes for related activities.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260200</id>
	<title>I'm not sure COCOMO is a good measure</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265130060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Something based on lines of code like COCOMO is probably not a good estimate for a kernel.  Kernel debugging is harder for one.   Many of the drivers required some level of reverse engineering as well.</p><p>I'd say every "Kernel line of code" is probably worth 10 lines of code in userspace, if not more.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Something based on lines of code like COCOMO is probably not a good estimate for a kernel .
Kernel debugging is harder for one .
Many of the drivers required some level of reverse engineering as well.I 'd say every " Kernel line of code " is probably worth 10 lines of code in userspace , if not more .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Something based on lines of code like COCOMO is probably not a good estimate for a kernel.
Kernel debugging is harder for one.
Many of the drivers required some level of reverse engineering as well.I'd say every "Kernel line of code" is probably worth 10 lines of code in userspace, if not more.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31265250</id>
	<title>let's look at the economy of scale</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265108160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Note our great Apollo space program example was around 1-2 billion in today's dollars for software development... and that got us to the moon, new technologies, and beyond. BTW...
<br>
<br>
With that perspective, $1 billion dollars to run a $299 netbook to check email, surf the web <i>securely</i>, and copy photo files? On a lousy (gnome/KDE) window manager (remember "The Year of the Linux Desktop"?)...
<br>
<br>
<br>
Are we calling this "mission accomplished"? I beg to differ.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Note our great Apollo space program example was around 1-2 billion in today 's dollars for software development... and that got us to the moon , new technologies , and beyond .
BTW.. . With that perspective , $ 1 billion dollars to run a $ 299 netbook to check email , surf the web securely , and copy photo files ?
On a lousy ( gnome/KDE ) window manager ( remember " The Year of the Linux Desktop " ? ) .. .
Are we calling this " mission accomplished " ?
I beg to differ .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Note our great Apollo space program example was around 1-2 billion in today's dollars for software development... and that got us to the moon, new technologies, and beyond.
BTW...


With that perspective, $1 billion dollars to run a $299 netbook to check email, surf the web securely, and copy photo files?
On a lousy (gnome/KDE) window manager (remember "The Year of the Linux Desktop"?)...
Are we calling this "mission accomplished"?
I beg to differ.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260428</id>
	<title>So, FLOSS developers;</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265131200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>where is your paycheck? Hmmmmm?</p><p>You're slaving away and others are getting rich.</p><p>Don't be a sap; develop for Microsoft or even Apple!</p><p>Tolling, trolling, trolling,</p><p>Keep those wheels 'a  trolling.</p><p>RAWHIDE!</p><p>Having problems pay'in your bills,<br>Cod'n for free!</p><p>Tolling, trolling, trolling,</p><p>Keep those wheels 'a  trolling.</p><p>RAWHIDE!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>where is your paycheck ?
Hmmmmm ? You 're slaving away and others are getting rich.Do n't be a sap ; develop for Microsoft or even Apple ! Tolling , trolling , trolling,Keep those wheels 'a trolling.RAWHIDE ! Having problems pay'in your bills,Cod'n for free ! Tolling , trolling , trolling,Keep those wheels 'a trolling.RAWHIDE !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>where is your paycheck?
Hmmmmm?You're slaving away and others are getting rich.Don't be a sap; develop for Microsoft or even Apple!Tolling, trolling, trolling,Keep those wheels 'a  trolling.RAWHIDE!Having problems pay'in your bills,Cod'n for free!Tolling, trolling, trolling,Keep those wheels 'a  trolling.RAWHIDE!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260536</id>
	<title>Re:lol wut?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265131740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Vitriol aside, "Social Welfare" can mean anything, like a organization (say, a Church) in a community providing a non-trivial benefit to said community, while operating as a nonprofit.  To put it tactfully, you need your "American Perspective" checked.  It improves the welfare of the society (albeit in a somewhat hard to measure way).  Saying that society as a whole (outside the open source community) has not benefited from Open Source (to which it pays no material compensation for) is ludicrous, therefore donations to open source should be treated just as any other donation to a nonprofit group.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Vitriol aside , " Social Welfare " can mean anything , like a organization ( say , a Church ) in a community providing a non-trivial benefit to said community , while operating as a nonprofit .
To put it tactfully , you need your " American Perspective " checked .
It improves the welfare of the society ( albeit in a somewhat hard to measure way ) .
Saying that society as a whole ( outside the open source community ) has not benefited from Open Source ( to which it pays no material compensation for ) is ludicrous , therefore donations to open source should be treated just as any other donation to a nonprofit group .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Vitriol aside, "Social Welfare" can mean anything, like a organization (say, a Church) in a community providing a non-trivial benefit to said community, while operating as a nonprofit.
To put it tactfully, you need your "American Perspective" checked.
It improves the welfare of the society (albeit in a somewhat hard to measure way).
Saying that society as a whole (outside the open source community) has not benefited from Open Source (to which it pays no material compensation for) is ludicrous, therefore donations to open source should be treated just as any other donation to a nonprofit group.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260194</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260480</id>
	<title>Loss leaders and many-sided markets</title>
	<author>poppycock</author>
	<datestamp>1265131500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Its an interesting estimate, but I don't buy the argument for favorable tax treatment for "social welfare." For many companies, open source is one side of a many-sided business model: i.e., they're making their money somewhere else. Giving special tax treatment for such a thing would be similar to giving Adobe special tax treatment for Adobe Reader, or AT&amp;T for giving away free cell phone. The freebie is a necessary for them to build a profitable market elsewhere.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Its an interesting estimate , but I do n't buy the argument for favorable tax treatment for " social welfare .
" For many companies , open source is one side of a many-sided business model : i.e. , they 're making their money somewhere else .
Giving special tax treatment for such a thing would be similar to giving Adobe special tax treatment for Adobe Reader , or AT&amp;T for giving away free cell phone .
The freebie is a necessary for them to build a profitable market elsewhere .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Its an interesting estimate, but I don't buy the argument for favorable tax treatment for "social welfare.
" For many companies, open source is one side of a many-sided business model: i.e., they're making their money somewhere else.
Giving special tax treatment for such a thing would be similar to giving Adobe special tax treatment for Adobe Reader, or AT&amp;T for giving away free cell phone.
The freebie is a necessary for them to build a profitable market elsewhere.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31264898</id>
	<title>R&amp;D Tax Credits in the UK</title>
	<author>HammerToe</author>
	<datestamp>1265106720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A couple of years ago I went to a seminar by HMRC (Revenue and Customs) on R&amp;D Tax Credits here in the UK. I stood up and asked the speaker how Open Source is seen by HMRC in terms of R&amp;D tax credits. I explained to them that the software we help develop (Plone) is used by numerous public sector organisations in the UK. One of the key criteria for R&amp;D Tax Credits is that you need to own the IP of whatever it is you are developing. I explained to them that our entire business model was based upon us *not* owning the IP of the software we are helping to develop.</p><p>I was laughed at. Seriously. The speaker and a good portion of the audience laughed at my ridiculous idea of my business not owning the IP of the software I was developing.</p><p>The Plone Foundation recently valued Plone using COCOMO at US$3 million.</p><p>-Matt</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A couple of years ago I went to a seminar by HMRC ( Revenue and Customs ) on R&amp;D Tax Credits here in the UK .
I stood up and asked the speaker how Open Source is seen by HMRC in terms of R&amp;D tax credits .
I explained to them that the software we help develop ( Plone ) is used by numerous public sector organisations in the UK .
One of the key criteria for R&amp;D Tax Credits is that you need to own the IP of whatever it is you are developing .
I explained to them that our entire business model was based upon us * not * owning the IP of the software we are helping to develop.I was laughed at .
Seriously. The speaker and a good portion of the audience laughed at my ridiculous idea of my business not owning the IP of the software I was developing.The Plone Foundation recently valued Plone using COCOMO at US $ 3 million.-Matt</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A couple of years ago I went to a seminar by HMRC (Revenue and Customs) on R&amp;D Tax Credits here in the UK.
I stood up and asked the speaker how Open Source is seen by HMRC in terms of R&amp;D tax credits.
I explained to them that the software we help develop (Plone) is used by numerous public sector organisations in the UK.
One of the key criteria for R&amp;D Tax Credits is that you need to own the IP of whatever it is you are developing.
I explained to them that our entire business model was based upon us *not* owning the IP of the software we are helping to develop.I was laughed at.
Seriously. The speaker and a good portion of the audience laughed at my ridiculous idea of my business not owning the IP of the software I was developing.The Plone Foundation recently valued Plone using COCOMO at US$3 million.-Matt</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260368</id>
	<title>Re:Seems a bit high</title>
	<author>Yvanhoe</author>
	<datestamp>1265130900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Given a dozen developers and a hard spec, Linux could be developed in 8 to 9 months.</p></div><p>I would call that a billion-dollars hard spec then<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)<br>
The value of a program is not in its number of code lines, but in its architecture and in the cleverness of its design. Sure, given a good spec, all you have to do is convert it into line code literally and it may be a short job. But such a spec would be the value of the code and writing it would be an enormous effort.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Given a dozen developers and a hard spec , Linux could be developed in 8 to 9 months.I would call that a billion-dollars hard spec then : - ) The value of a program is not in its number of code lines , but in its architecture and in the cleverness of its design .
Sure , given a good spec , all you have to do is convert it into line code literally and it may be a short job .
But such a spec would be the value of the code and writing it would be an enormous effort .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Given a dozen developers and a hard spec, Linux could be developed in 8 to 9 months.I would call that a billion-dollars hard spec then :-)
The value of a program is not in its number of code lines, but in its architecture and in the cleverness of its design.
Sure, given a good spec, all you have to do is convert it into line code literally and it may be a short job.
But such a spec would be the value of the code and writing it would be an enormous effort.
	</sentencetext>
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-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261482
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260852
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31267928
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31261546
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31262398
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260628
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31262320
</commentlist>
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<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_24_155214.14</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260154
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31277554
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31260568
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31262442
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31266084
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31264456
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_24_155214.31266806
</commentlist>
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