<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_02_23_2022204</id>
	<title>NHTSA Has No Software Engineers To Analyze Toyota</title>
	<author>kdawson</author>
	<datestamp>1266916560000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>thecarchik writes <i>"An official from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration told investigators that the agency <a href="http://www.thecarconnection.com/marty-blog/1042836\_nhtsa-has-no-software-engineers-or-ees-to-analyze-toyotas">doesn't employ any electrical engineers or software engineers</a>, leaving them woefully unable to investigate correctly what caused the most recent Toyota recall. A modern luxury car has something close to 100 million lines of software code in it, running on 70 to 100 microprocessors. And according to consultant Frost &amp; Sullivan, that number will rise to 200 to 300 million lines within a few years. And the software that controls the 'drive-by-wire' accelerators of Toyota and Lexus vehicles is one potential culprit in the tangled collection of issues, allegations, and recalls of many of those vehicles for so-called 'sudden acceleration' problems."</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>thecarchik writes " An official from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration told investigators that the agency does n't employ any electrical engineers or software engineers , leaving them woefully unable to investigate correctly what caused the most recent Toyota recall .
A modern luxury car has something close to 100 million lines of software code in it , running on 70 to 100 microprocessors .
And according to consultant Frost &amp; Sullivan , that number will rise to 200 to 300 million lines within a few years .
And the software that controls the 'drive-by-wire ' accelerators of Toyota and Lexus vehicles is one potential culprit in the tangled collection of issues , allegations , and recalls of many of those vehicles for so-called 'sudden acceleration ' problems .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>thecarchik writes "An official from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration told investigators that the agency doesn't employ any electrical engineers or software engineers, leaving them woefully unable to investigate correctly what caused the most recent Toyota recall.
A modern luxury car has something close to 100 million lines of software code in it, running on 70 to 100 microprocessors.
And according to consultant Frost &amp; Sullivan, that number will rise to 200 to 300 million lines within a few years.
And the software that controls the 'drive-by-wire' accelerators of Toyota and Lexus vehicles is one potential culprit in the tangled collection of issues, allegations, and recalls of many of those vehicles for so-called 'sudden acceleration' problems.
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31256848</id>
	<title>Re:running on 70 to 100 microprocessors???</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265103660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I have a seriously hard time believing that.</p><p>So.. 1 in the ECU, maybe a secondary to take care of flashing to make it unbrickable, that's two.<br>1 in the cruise control, ABS, radio, one or two for gauges and idiot lights... I guess the stuff with CAN on each device will have a micro, so the airbags get one (each?),</p><p>I'm having a hard time coming up with ten, and that's with liberally applying MCUs to each unit where one could do the job most likely...</p></div><p>These days you'll have a CPU on almost each and every actuator/effector and input cluster around the car. That means every switch cluster, every light, etc. The cost of electronics on a modern car exceeds 25\% of the car. If you buy a $30k Lexus, you pay at least 8$k for electronics. It's that simple. The manufacturing added cost (excluding raw materials) for metal/plastic/rubber parts has been steadily declining due to improvements in factory automation. The electronics does save quite a bit of money on wiring harnesses, too. Those used to cost quite a bit.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have a seriously hard time believing that.So.. 1 in the ECU , maybe a secondary to take care of flashing to make it unbrickable , that 's two.1 in the cruise control , ABS , radio , one or two for gauges and idiot lights... I guess the stuff with CAN on each device will have a micro , so the airbags get one ( each ?
) ,I 'm having a hard time coming up with ten , and that 's with liberally applying MCUs to each unit where one could do the job most likely...These days you 'll have a CPU on almost each and every actuator/effector and input cluster around the car .
That means every switch cluster , every light , etc .
The cost of electronics on a modern car exceeds 25 \ % of the car .
If you buy a $ 30k Lexus , you pay at least 8 $ k for electronics .
It 's that simple .
The manufacturing added cost ( excluding raw materials ) for metal/plastic/rubber parts has been steadily declining due to improvements in factory automation .
The electronics does save quite a bit of money on wiring harnesses , too .
Those used to cost quite a bit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have a seriously hard time believing that.So.. 1 in the ECU, maybe a secondary to take care of flashing to make it unbrickable, that's two.1 in the cruise control, ABS, radio, one or two for gauges and idiot lights... I guess the stuff with CAN on each device will have a micro, so the airbags get one (each?
),I'm having a hard time coming up with ten, and that's with liberally applying MCUs to each unit where one could do the job most likely...These days you'll have a CPU on almost each and every actuator/effector and input cluster around the car.
That means every switch cluster, every light, etc.
The cost of electronics on a modern car exceeds 25\% of the car.
If you buy a $30k Lexus, you pay at least 8$k for electronics.
It's that simple.
The manufacturing added cost (excluding raw materials) for metal/plastic/rubber parts has been steadily declining due to improvements in factory automation.
The electronics does save quite a bit of money on wiring harnesses, too.
Those used to cost quite a bit.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251570</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250718</id>
	<title>How many microprocessors was that again?</title>
	<author>jdgoulden</author>
	<datestamp>1266921000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>70 to 100 microprocessors? I imagine that this is true only if you employ a fairly broad definition of "microprocessor" and note that the vast majority are single-purpose devices in self-contained systems. I doubt that the "microprocessors" and "lines of code" that run the stereo or the climate-control system - or even the airbags - have any connection with the driveline.</htmltext>
<tokenext>70 to 100 microprocessors ?
I imagine that this is true only if you employ a fairly broad definition of " microprocessor " and note that the vast majority are single-purpose devices in self-contained systems .
I doubt that the " microprocessors " and " lines of code " that run the stereo or the climate-control system - or even the airbags - have any connection with the driveline .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>70 to 100 microprocessors?
I imagine that this is true only if you employ a fairly broad definition of "microprocessor" and note that the vast majority are single-purpose devices in self-contained systems.
I doubt that the "microprocessors" and "lines of code" that run the stereo or the climate-control system - or even the airbags - have any connection with the driveline.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251756</id>
	<title>Same in the US</title>
	<author>zogger</author>
	<datestamp>1266924540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's the same policy they have in the US for public oil and gas, some "honor system", the pumpers tell the government what they owe..uh huh</p><p>I think that's nuts. I would rather that public oil and gas be sold at a rationed level at cost plus a little for administration and contracted refining to the US public. Or just left in the ground for future use, say there's some giant emergency and we can't get much from foreign sources. Nice to have a stash. Just bank it where it sits, in case we really need it later. Our "commons" have been sold off cheap for generations, this sucks.  I mean, look what we do now, sell off cheap "on the honor system" public oil, then turn around and re-buy oil on the market and shoot it down some old salt mines for our "national oil reserve" stash. Say whut?? Ain't this kinda just retarded? How about just know there's a lot some place in some fields, have the wells already to go, then plug it up until such a time as there is an emergency. They we don't need to go buy any..because we already got it..in the ground!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's the same policy they have in the US for public oil and gas , some " honor system " , the pumpers tell the government what they owe..uh huhI think that 's nuts .
I would rather that public oil and gas be sold at a rationed level at cost plus a little for administration and contracted refining to the US public .
Or just left in the ground for future use , say there 's some giant emergency and we ca n't get much from foreign sources .
Nice to have a stash .
Just bank it where it sits , in case we really need it later .
Our " commons " have been sold off cheap for generations , this sucks .
I mean , look what we do now , sell off cheap " on the honor system " public oil , then turn around and re-buy oil on the market and shoot it down some old salt mines for our " national oil reserve " stash .
Say whut ? ?
Ai n't this kinda just retarded ?
How about just know there 's a lot some place in some fields , have the wells already to go , then plug it up until such a time as there is an emergency .
They we do n't need to go buy any..because we already got it..in the ground !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's the same policy they have in the US for public oil and gas, some "honor system", the pumpers tell the government what they owe..uh huhI think that's nuts.
I would rather that public oil and gas be sold at a rationed level at cost plus a little for administration and contracted refining to the US public.
Or just left in the ground for future use, say there's some giant emergency and we can't get much from foreign sources.
Nice to have a stash.
Just bank it where it sits, in case we really need it later.
Our "commons" have been sold off cheap for generations, this sucks.
I mean, look what we do now, sell off cheap "on the honor system" public oil, then turn around and re-buy oil on the market and shoot it down some old salt mines for our "national oil reserve" stash.
Say whut??
Ain't this kinda just retarded?
How about just know there's a lot some place in some fields, have the wells already to go, then plug it up until such a time as there is an emergency.
They we don't need to go buy any..because we already got it..in the ground!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250754</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251414</id>
	<title>Re:100 microprocessors?</title>
	<author>MachDelta</author>
	<datestamp>1266923280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think they're using the term "microprocessor" very (VERY) loosely. Something like a wheel speed sensor would probably be considered a "microprocessor" to the layman journalist, when in reality its just a magnet mounted on a ring, and a stationary pickup. There are only a handful of components on a vehicle that I know of which are capable of any kind of "processing". The PCM, TCM, BCM (power/tranny/body control modules) and whatever multimedia/nav/entertainment system there is.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think they 're using the term " microprocessor " very ( VERY ) loosely .
Something like a wheel speed sensor would probably be considered a " microprocessor " to the layman journalist , when in reality its just a magnet mounted on a ring , and a stationary pickup .
There are only a handful of components on a vehicle that I know of which are capable of any kind of " processing " .
The PCM , TCM , BCM ( power/tranny/body control modules ) and whatever multimedia/nav/entertainment system there is .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think they're using the term "microprocessor" very (VERY) loosely.
Something like a wheel speed sensor would probably be considered a "microprocessor" to the layman journalist, when in reality its just a magnet mounted on a ring, and a stationary pickup.
There are only a handful of components on a vehicle that I know of which are capable of any kind of "processing".
The PCM, TCM, BCM (power/tranny/body control modules) and whatever multimedia/nav/entertainment system there is.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250810</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251028</id>
	<title>Re:100 million lines? Sure, we will get right on i</title>
	<author>scourfish</author>
	<datestamp>1266922020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Most of that code is probably autogenerated from some control scheme in a Simulink-type toolchain.  There are other ways to audit than looking straight at the microcontroller code, to that regard.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Most of that code is probably autogenerated from some control scheme in a Simulink-type toolchain .
There are other ways to audit than looking straight at the microcontroller code , to that regard .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most of that code is probably autogenerated from some control scheme in a Simulink-type toolchain.
There are other ways to audit than looking straight at the microcontroller code, to that regard.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250674</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251368</id>
	<title>Re:This all story starts to look like swine flu</title>
	<author>zero0ne</author>
	<datestamp>1266923100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was thinking the same thing...</p><p>US economy down... US car companies in trouble...</p><p>Lets blame a huge foreign company of some problem to persuade the citizens that they should start buying US cars...</p><p>Someone stated it in a previous thread, Governments like to think long term, where as businesses think short term.  This strategy would be long term thinking in the sense that Americans will slowly start buying US made cars.  10 years from now, maybe GM is the top car manufacturing company.</p><p>Also, while everyone sits watching how this Toyota crap plays out, all the major governments can swiftly implement the ACTA when no one is bothering to pay attention.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was thinking the same thing...US economy down... US car companies in trouble...Lets blame a huge foreign company of some problem to persuade the citizens that they should start buying US cars...Someone stated it in a previous thread , Governments like to think long term , where as businesses think short term .
This strategy would be long term thinking in the sense that Americans will slowly start buying US made cars .
10 years from now , maybe GM is the top car manufacturing company.Also , while everyone sits watching how this Toyota crap plays out , all the major governments can swiftly implement the ACTA when no one is bothering to pay attention .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was thinking the same thing...US economy down... US car companies in trouble...Lets blame a huge foreign company of some problem to persuade the citizens that they should start buying US cars...Someone stated it in a previous thread, Governments like to think long term, where as businesses think short term.
This strategy would be long term thinking in the sense that Americans will slowly start buying US made cars.
10 years from now, maybe GM is the top car manufacturing company.Also, while everyone sits watching how this Toyota crap plays out, all the major governments can swiftly implement the ACTA when no one is bothering to pay attention.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251008</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250940</id>
	<title>Why would they?</title>
	<author>Gadgetfreak</author>
	<datestamp>1266921720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They respond to problems, they don't reverse engineer things.  Does the FDA or the Surgeon General's office have engineers to paw through the lines of code in MRI machines or CT scanners, or anesthesia machines, or respirators, or any other number of computerized medical machines?  No... they get tested emperically, just like cars do.  It's very difficult to prove that some of these flaws exist.... remember the Audi "sudden acceleration" problems in the late '80s that almost killed the brand? That was pre-computerized throttle and transmission, and STILL was impossible to prove.  Audi made pedal spacing changes, but largely to avoid the inevitable suicide of doing 'nothing.'</p><p>Engineers or not, it's going to be quite difficult to prove that there's an actual "flaw" in the design, let alone negligence,when there are so many millions of vehicles without issue.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They respond to problems , they do n't reverse engineer things .
Does the FDA or the Surgeon General 's office have engineers to paw through the lines of code in MRI machines or CT scanners , or anesthesia machines , or respirators , or any other number of computerized medical machines ?
No... they get tested emperically , just like cars do .
It 's very difficult to prove that some of these flaws exist.... remember the Audi " sudden acceleration " problems in the late '80s that almost killed the brand ?
That was pre-computerized throttle and transmission , and STILL was impossible to prove .
Audi made pedal spacing changes , but largely to avoid the inevitable suicide of doing 'nothing .
'Engineers or not , it 's going to be quite difficult to prove that there 's an actual " flaw " in the design , let alone negligence,when there are so many millions of vehicles without issue .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They respond to problems, they don't reverse engineer things.
Does the FDA or the Surgeon General's office have engineers to paw through the lines of code in MRI machines or CT scanners, or anesthesia machines, or respirators, or any other number of computerized medical machines?
No... they get tested emperically, just like cars do.
It's very difficult to prove that some of these flaws exist.... remember the Audi "sudden acceleration" problems in the late '80s that almost killed the brand?
That was pre-computerized throttle and transmission, and STILL was impossible to prove.
Audi made pedal spacing changes, but largely to avoid the inevitable suicide of doing 'nothing.
'Engineers or not, it's going to be quite difficult to prove that there's an actual "flaw" in the design, let alone negligence,when there are so many millions of vehicles without issue.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251570</id>
	<title>running on 70 to 100 microprocessors???</title>
	<author>mirix</author>
	<datestamp>1266923880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have a seriously hard time believing that.</p><p>So.. 1 in the ECU, maybe a secondary to take care of flashing to make it unbrickable, that's two.<br>1 in the cruise control, ABS, radio, one or two for gauges and idiot lights... I guess the stuff with CAN on each device will have a micro, so the airbags get one (each?),</p><p>I'm having a hard time coming up with ten, and that's with liberally applying MCUs to each unit where one could do the job most likely...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have a seriously hard time believing that.So.. 1 in the ECU , maybe a secondary to take care of flashing to make it unbrickable , that 's two.1 in the cruise control , ABS , radio , one or two for gauges and idiot lights... I guess the stuff with CAN on each device will have a micro , so the airbags get one ( each ?
) ,I 'm having a hard time coming up with ten , and that 's with liberally applying MCUs to each unit where one could do the job most likely.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have a seriously hard time believing that.So.. 1 in the ECU, maybe a secondary to take care of flashing to make it unbrickable, that's two.1 in the cruise control, ABS, radio, one or two for gauges and idiot lights... I guess the stuff with CAN on each device will have a micro, so the airbags get one (each?
),I'm having a hard time coming up with ten, and that's with liberally applying MCUs to each unit where one could do the job most likely...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251844</id>
	<title>They have 1000's of software engineers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266924900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>as soon as they require the code to be open to the public for inspection.</p><p>How many more people have to die before we get to look at the code?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>as soon as they require the code to be open to the public for inspection.How many more people have to die before we get to look at the code ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>as soon as they require the code to be open to the public for inspection.How many more people have to die before we get to look at the code?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251038</id>
	<title>100 million lines???</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266922020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>IANASE, but 100 million lines of code sounds a little over the top. Can someone verify this?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>IANASE , but 100 million lines of code sounds a little over the top .
Can someone verify this ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>IANASE, but 100 million lines of code sounds a little over the top.
Can someone verify this?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31257054</id>
	<title>Throttle software causing sudden acceleration?</title>
	<author>L4t3r4lu5</author>
	<datestamp>1265106060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>It's not a race condition, is it?<br> <br> <b>I can't believe I'm the first one on this thread to make that joke. I'm not even a programmer.</b> <br> <br>You should all be ashamed of yourselves.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's not a race condition , is it ?
I ca n't believe I 'm the first one on this thread to make that joke .
I 'm not even a programmer .
You should all be ashamed of yourselves .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's not a race condition, is it?
I can't believe I'm the first one on this thread to make that joke.
I'm not even a programmer.
You should all be ashamed of yourselves.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31254894</id>
	<title>Re:100 million lines of code?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266941520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Thaaaats because... they're working on an gigantic x86 ASM source with lots of NOPs and comments.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Thaaaats because... they 're working on an gigantic x86 ASM source with lots of NOPs and comments .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thaaaats because... they're working on an gigantic x86 ASM source with lots of NOPs and comments.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250802</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250950</id>
	<title>Re:How many microprocessors was that again?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266921720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Perhaps the definition is a little broad, but it is not incorrect.<br>I have a radio I am working with on the desk next to me and I count 5 microprocessors, one of them a dual core (OMAP).<br>This isn't even a navigation system.  It is just a radio.  And I'm not counting the microprocessors that certainly exist in the XM module and CD mech (probably 2 or 3).</p><p>These micros are mostly single-purpose as you say and relatively low power (some of them are low-power ARM micros, others run at a sub-100 MHz range).  This doesn't mean they aren't microprocessors.  Any one of them has more power and memory than desktop computer from 20 years ago.  The entire radio probably has more processing power than was used to send a man to the moon in the 60's.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Perhaps the definition is a little broad , but it is not incorrect.I have a radio I am working with on the desk next to me and I count 5 microprocessors , one of them a dual core ( OMAP ) .This is n't even a navigation system .
It is just a radio .
And I 'm not counting the microprocessors that certainly exist in the XM module and CD mech ( probably 2 or 3 ) .These micros are mostly single-purpose as you say and relatively low power ( some of them are low-power ARM micros , others run at a sub-100 MHz range ) .
This does n't mean they are n't microprocessors .
Any one of them has more power and memory than desktop computer from 20 years ago .
The entire radio probably has more processing power than was used to send a man to the moon in the 60 's .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Perhaps the definition is a little broad, but it is not incorrect.I have a radio I am working with on the desk next to me and I count 5 microprocessors, one of them a dual core (OMAP).This isn't even a navigation system.
It is just a radio.
And I'm not counting the microprocessors that certainly exist in the XM module and CD mech (probably 2 or 3).These micros are mostly single-purpose as you say and relatively low power (some of them are low-power ARM micros, others run at a sub-100 MHz range).
This doesn't mean they aren't microprocessors.
Any one of them has more power and memory than desktop computer from 20 years ago.
The entire radio probably has more processing power than was used to send a man to the moon in the 60's.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250718</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31261274</id>
	<title>These guys can help</title>
	<author>dbc</author>
	<datestamp>1265134680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><a href="http://gaming.nv.gov/tech\_main.htm" title="nv.gov">http://gaming.nv.gov/tech\_main.htm</a> [nv.gov]</p><p>Just goes to show the government *can* develop competence with technology if they consider the issue important enough.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //gaming.nv.gov/tech \ _main.htm [ nv.gov ] Just goes to show the government * can * develop competence with technology if they consider the issue important enough .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://gaming.nv.gov/tech\_main.htm [nv.gov]Just goes to show the government *can* develop competence with technology if they consider the issue important enough.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251580</id>
	<title>Re:100 million lines of code?</title>
	<author>BZ</author>
	<datestamp>1266923940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; Now, I am not in any way qualified to say that number is to large or to small.</p><p>Depends on where it comes from.  100mloc of hand-written stuff (any kind of language) is insane.  100mloc of mostly auto-generated boilerplate is ok as long as you're pretty sure your (presumably smaller) code-generator is correct.</p><p>Realistically, I would expect that the "code" in question here is effectively an intermediate representation compiled from some higher-level language.  That intermediate representation might be C, but that doesn't make it the original source code any more than the assembly generated from your typical C program is the original source code, no matter whether one can hand-write assembly.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; Now , I am not in any way qualified to say that number is to large or to small.Depends on where it comes from .
100mloc of hand-written stuff ( any kind of language ) is insane .
100mloc of mostly auto-generated boilerplate is ok as long as you 're pretty sure your ( presumably smaller ) code-generator is correct.Realistically , I would expect that the " code " in question here is effectively an intermediate representation compiled from some higher-level language .
That intermediate representation might be C , but that does n't make it the original source code any more than the assembly generated from your typical C program is the original source code , no matter whether one can hand-write assembly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; Now, I am not in any way qualified to say that number is to large or to small.Depends on where it comes from.
100mloc of hand-written stuff (any kind of language) is insane.
100mloc of mostly auto-generated boilerplate is ok as long as you're pretty sure your (presumably smaller) code-generator is correct.Realistically, I would expect that the "code" in question here is effectively an intermediate representation compiled from some higher-level language.
That intermediate representation might be C, but that doesn't make it the original source code any more than the assembly generated from your typical C program is the original source code, no matter whether one can hand-write assembly.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250802</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31254178</id>
	<title>Re:This is the government, not an engineering firm</title>
	<author>barzok</author>
	<datestamp>1266936540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>In cases like this, NHTSA should force Toyota to hire a third party (objective) consultant to create a technical report.</p></div></blockquote><p>So you want to ask the wolf to install cameras to make sure he's not raiding the henhouse?</p><p>The consultant needs to be selected by NHSTA. And paid for by Toyota.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>In cases like this , NHTSA should force Toyota to hire a third party ( objective ) consultant to create a technical report.So you want to ask the wolf to install cameras to make sure he 's not raiding the henhouse ? The consultant needs to be selected by NHSTA .
And paid for by Toyota .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In cases like this, NHTSA should force Toyota to hire a third party (objective) consultant to create a technical report.So you want to ask the wolf to install cameras to make sure he's not raiding the henhouse?The consultant needs to be selected by NHSTA.
And paid for by Toyota.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251170</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251966</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>Pentium100</author>
	<datestamp>1266925440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have an idea... how about making most of the critical systems in the car dependent on mechanics rather than software? It seems that it is easier to test the mechanical parts and it is also usually clearly visible if something has failed (bent, broken etc). So, leave fancy electronics for the audio system and navigation, use simple electronics or relays for things like turning signals and use mechanical parts for accelerator, brakes and steering. That could work, I mean it should be more reliable than the overly complex software doing nothing useful, just making the system more complex.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have an idea... how about making most of the critical systems in the car dependent on mechanics rather than software ?
It seems that it is easier to test the mechanical parts and it is also usually clearly visible if something has failed ( bent , broken etc ) .
So , leave fancy electronics for the audio system and navigation , use simple electronics or relays for things like turning signals and use mechanical parts for accelerator , brakes and steering .
That could work , I mean it should be more reliable than the overly complex software doing nothing useful , just making the system more complex .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have an idea... how about making most of the critical systems in the car dependent on mechanics rather than software?
It seems that it is easier to test the mechanical parts and it is also usually clearly visible if something has failed (bent, broken etc).
So, leave fancy electronics for the audio system and navigation, use simple electronics or relays for things like turning signals and use mechanical parts for accelerator, brakes and steering.
That could work, I mean it should be more reliable than the overly complex software doing nothing useful, just making the system more complex.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250746</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251718</id>
	<title>Fire all the bridge and tunnel inspectors, too</title>
	<author>FranTaylor</author>
	<datestamp>1266924420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you think that the government should not get involved in engineering.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you think that the government should not get involved in engineering .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you think that the government should not get involved in engineering.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251704</id>
	<title>Re:100 million lines of code??</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266924360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If only they had used LISP, could have done it in 1 line of code...</p><p>one really, really long line.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If only they had used LISP , could have done it in 1 line of code...one really , really long line .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If only they had used LISP, could have done it in 1 line of code...one really, really long line.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250628</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31257416</id>
	<title>Safety and Software</title>
	<author>TM22721</author>
	<datestamp>1265110440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>'Software based safety system' is a contradicion in terms in my experience as a EE who has implemented software based safety systems for offshore platforms. You can prove that the system fails gracefully under normal conditions. What you can't predict are the variety of power glitches amongst multiple distributed nodes, hoping that there won't be a common mode failure that went unanalyzed. For instance when a bettery voltage gets low at the end of life, has that been adequately tested or simulated ? There are race conditions that scare the hell out of me and the Toyota glitch caused by a simple short circuit was a power glitch scenario obviously NOT anticipated nor tested.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>'Software based safety system ' is a contradicion in terms in my experience as a EE who has implemented software based safety systems for offshore platforms .
You can prove that the system fails gracefully under normal conditions .
What you ca n't predict are the variety of power glitches amongst multiple distributed nodes , hoping that there wo n't be a common mode failure that went unanalyzed .
For instance when a bettery voltage gets low at the end of life , has that been adequately tested or simulated ?
There are race conditions that scare the hell out of me and the Toyota glitch caused by a simple short circuit was a power glitch scenario obviously NOT anticipated nor tested .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>'Software based safety system' is a contradicion in terms in my experience as a EE who has implemented software based safety systems for offshore platforms.
You can prove that the system fails gracefully under normal conditions.
What you can't predict are the variety of power glitches amongst multiple distributed nodes, hoping that there won't be a common mode failure that went unanalyzed.
For instance when a bettery voltage gets low at the end of life, has that been adequately tested or simulated ?
There are race conditions that scare the hell out of me and the Toyota glitch caused by a simple short circuit was a power glitch scenario obviously NOT anticipated nor tested.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31255508</id>
	<title>"Resource starvation"?</title>
	<author>PapayaSF</author>
	<datestamp>1266946560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Years of deregulation and resource starvation have strangulated our regulatory agencies</p></div></blockquote><p>

Here's some recent data about the resources available to the DoT, the parent agency of the NHTSA: <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20091211/1afedpay11\_st.art.htm" title="usatoday.com">When the recession started, the Transportation Department had only one person earning a salary of $170,000 or more. Eighteen months later, 1,690 employees had salaries above $170,000</a> [usatoday.com]. Plus the juicy benefits and pension plan. I'll bet all those managers and supervisors raking in the big bucks would agree that their agencies are "resource starved" and that if they only had more money and more power, they could hire two or three software engineers (for the cost of one manager).</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Years of deregulation and resource starvation have strangulated our regulatory agencies Here 's some recent data about the resources available to the DoT , the parent agency of the NHTSA : When the recession started , the Transportation Department had only one person earning a salary of $ 170,000 or more .
Eighteen months later , 1,690 employees had salaries above $ 170,000 [ usatoday.com ] .
Plus the juicy benefits and pension plan .
I 'll bet all those managers and supervisors raking in the big bucks would agree that their agencies are " resource starved " and that if they only had more money and more power , they could hire two or three software engineers ( for the cost of one manager ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Years of deregulation and resource starvation have strangulated our regulatory agencies

Here's some recent data about the resources available to the DoT, the parent agency of the NHTSA: When the recession started, the Transportation Department had only one person earning a salary of $170,000 or more.
Eighteen months later, 1,690 employees had salaries above $170,000 [usatoday.com].
Plus the juicy benefits and pension plan.
I'll bet all those managers and supervisors raking in the big bucks would agree that their agencies are "resource starved" and that if they only had more money and more power, they could hire two or three software engineers (for the cost of one manager).
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31252064</id>
	<title>I call B.S.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266925920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt;&gt;These are impressive amounts of software, yet if you bought a premium-class automobile recently, &rdquo;it probably contains close to 100 million lines of software code,&rdquo; says Manfred Broy, a professor of informatics at Technical University, Munich, and a leading expert on software in cars. All that software executes on 70 to 100 microprocessor-based electronic control units (ECUs) networked throughout the body of your car.</p><p>More likely 100 million bytes, including data.  Mostly data.  And how much of that is critical vs entertainment/fluff?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; &gt; These are impressive amounts of software , yet if you bought a premium-class automobile recently ,    it probably contains close to 100 million lines of software code ,    says Manfred Broy , a professor of informatics at Technical University , Munich , and a leading expert on software in cars .
All that software executes on 70 to 100 microprocessor-based electronic control units ( ECUs ) networked throughout the body of your car.More likely 100 million bytes , including data .
Mostly data .
And how much of that is critical vs entertainment/fluff ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt;&gt;These are impressive amounts of software, yet if you bought a premium-class automobile recently, ”it probably contains close to 100 million lines of software code,” says Manfred Broy, a professor of informatics at Technical University, Munich, and a leading expert on software in cars.
All that software executes on 70 to 100 microprocessor-based electronic control units (ECUs) networked throughout the body of your car.More likely 100 million bytes, including data.
Mostly data.
And how much of that is critical vs entertainment/fluff?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251804</id>
	<title>Recall speech was para of Ford memo r.e. Pinto.</title>
	<author>HornWumpus</author>
	<datestamp>1266924720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
That memo turned ordinary one or two million dollar out of court settlements into 100 million dollar civil trail losses for Ford.
</p><p>
I can't believe Toyota would be stupid enough to go on record with the same thinking.
</p><p>
The thing about that memo is it defeats it's own conclusion.
</p><p>
Even if it was good business to just let people die and pay out of court you can't write it down or you will be punished.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That memo turned ordinary one or two million dollar out of court settlements into 100 million dollar civil trail losses for Ford .
I ca n't believe Toyota would be stupid enough to go on record with the same thinking .
The thing about that memo is it defeats it 's own conclusion .
Even if it was good business to just let people die and pay out of court you ca n't write it down or you will be punished .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
That memo turned ordinary one or two million dollar out of court settlements into 100 million dollar civil trail losses for Ford.
I can't believe Toyota would be stupid enough to go on record with the same thinking.
The thing about that memo is it defeats it's own conclusion.
Even if it was good business to just let people die and pay out of court you can't write it down or you will be punished.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250558</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250754</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>tonywong</author>
	<datestamp>1266921120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>What is wrong is that everyone started believing the mantra that smaller government is better government. This isn't just limited to the United States.<br><br>In Canada, the province where I live (Alberta), derives a major part of its revenues from oil and gas. In the same conservative government 35 years ago, we had 2 independent arms of the government who could determine how much royalties were owed to the government from the oil and gas producers.<br><br>Today, we have no one in our government who is able to determine how much we should be collecting and therefore have to rely upon the oil and gas companies to tell use how much they are supposed to remit. Our own government auditor believes we have been bilked out of billions yet somehow we have a leaner and, ahem, more efficient government.<br><br>Just remember that the only thing to stand up to a big business nowadays is big government, and the goal of any big business is to convince everyone that a small government can watch over big business just like a big government can.</htmltext>
<tokenext>What is wrong is that everyone started believing the mantra that smaller government is better government .
This is n't just limited to the United States.In Canada , the province where I live ( Alberta ) , derives a major part of its revenues from oil and gas .
In the same conservative government 35 years ago , we had 2 independent arms of the government who could determine how much royalties were owed to the government from the oil and gas producers.Today , we have no one in our government who is able to determine how much we should be collecting and therefore have to rely upon the oil and gas companies to tell use how much they are supposed to remit .
Our own government auditor believes we have been bilked out of billions yet somehow we have a leaner and , ahem , more efficient government.Just remember that the only thing to stand up to a big business nowadays is big government , and the goal of any big business is to convince everyone that a small government can watch over big business just like a big government can .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What is wrong is that everyone started believing the mantra that smaller government is better government.
This isn't just limited to the United States.In Canada, the province where I live (Alberta), derives a major part of its revenues from oil and gas.
In the same conservative government 35 years ago, we had 2 independent arms of the government who could determine how much royalties were owed to the government from the oil and gas producers.Today, we have no one in our government who is able to determine how much we should be collecting and therefore have to rely upon the oil and gas companies to tell use how much they are supposed to remit.
Our own government auditor believes we have been bilked out of billions yet somehow we have a leaner and, ahem, more efficient government.Just remember that the only thing to stand up to a big business nowadays is big government, and the goal of any big business is to convince everyone that a small government can watch over big business just like a big government can.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250576</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31252446</id>
	<title>100 MLOC?  They should have used Lisp.</title>
	<author>istartedi</author>
	<datestamp>1266927840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The car function is built in.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The car function is built in .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The car function is built in.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31253834</id>
	<title>Re:advice for anyone with a runaway gas pedal</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266934500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Interestingly, I saw a video that was posted this morning to the front page of <a href="http://www.theage.com.au/" title="theage.com.au" rel="nofollow">the Melbourne Age</a> [theage.com.au] (the permanent link is <a href="http://media.theage.com.au/cars/car-news/toyota-accelerator-pedal-panic-1168838.html" title="theage.com.au" rel="nofollow">this one</a> [theage.com.au]). In that video - the testimony by one of the participants in the hearings being held in the US - the lady giving her testimony explicitly states that she tried all her gears, <i>including</i> neutral, and that it <i>wasn't enough</i>.</p><p>What's bloody scary for me is that I was considering the Yaris as my next car. Looks like I'll be going with the Honda Jazz (Fit in America) instead.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Interestingly , I saw a video that was posted this morning to the front page of the Melbourne Age [ theage.com.au ] ( the permanent link is this one [ theage.com.au ] ) .
In that video - the testimony by one of the participants in the hearings being held in the US - the lady giving her testimony explicitly states that she tried all her gears , including neutral , and that it was n't enough.What 's bloody scary for me is that I was considering the Yaris as my next car .
Looks like I 'll be going with the Honda Jazz ( Fit in America ) instead .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Interestingly, I saw a video that was posted this morning to the front page of the Melbourne Age [theage.com.au] (the permanent link is this one [theage.com.au]).
In that video - the testimony by one of the participants in the hearings being held in the US - the lady giving her testimony explicitly states that she tried all her gears, including neutral, and that it wasn't enough.What's bloody scary for me is that I was considering the Yaris as my next car.
Looks like I'll be going with the Honda Jazz (Fit in America) instead.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251518</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31254716</id>
	<title>Re:advice for anyone with a runaway gas pedal</title>
	<author>Cassini2</author>
	<datestamp>1266940320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are two major problems with the "shift to neutral" solution:
<br>1. It doesn't always work.
<br>2. Only a few auto-mechanic and maybe some race car drives have the reflex to shift the car into neutral.
</p><p>Most people will not think of shifting to neutral when a problem is encountered, simply because they never need to do it.  I'm an engineer, and if my car takes off, it will take me a while to think of shifting to neutral.  A car at full acceleration can cover much ground in less than 1 second.
</p><p>The other problem is that I doubt that auto-transmissions will consistently disengage under *fault* conditions.
</p><p>Your best chance is to be driving a manual transmission.  Every manual transmission driver knows to hit the clutch and brakes at the same time, and will do it instinctively.  Additionally, the manual transmission is less vulnerable to simultaneous failure modes than the modern computer controlled automatic transmission.  For instance, if you are high gear in a manual transmission, it won't automatically down-shift to apply more torque to the wheels when you brake the car to slow it down.  Additionally, if the manual transmission is in low gear, it won't up-shift automatically if the car engine takes off.  The engine may rev-high, but in low gear, at least you won't be going fast.  <b>The manual transmission is much safer in runaway engine conditions.</b></p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are two major problems with the " shift to neutral " solution : 1 .
It does n't always work .
2. Only a few auto-mechanic and maybe some race car drives have the reflex to shift the car into neutral .
Most people will not think of shifting to neutral when a problem is encountered , simply because they never need to do it .
I 'm an engineer , and if my car takes off , it will take me a while to think of shifting to neutral .
A car at full acceleration can cover much ground in less than 1 second .
The other problem is that I doubt that auto-transmissions will consistently disengage under * fault * conditions .
Your best chance is to be driving a manual transmission .
Every manual transmission driver knows to hit the clutch and brakes at the same time , and will do it instinctively .
Additionally , the manual transmission is less vulnerable to simultaneous failure modes than the modern computer controlled automatic transmission .
For instance , if you are high gear in a manual transmission , it wo n't automatically down-shift to apply more torque to the wheels when you brake the car to slow it down .
Additionally , if the manual transmission is in low gear , it wo n't up-shift automatically if the car engine takes off .
The engine may rev-high , but in low gear , at least you wo n't be going fast .
The manual transmission is much safer in runaway engine conditions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are two major problems with the "shift to neutral" solution:
1.
It doesn't always work.
2. Only a few auto-mechanic and maybe some race car drives have the reflex to shift the car into neutral.
Most people will not think of shifting to neutral when a problem is encountered, simply because they never need to do it.
I'm an engineer, and if my car takes off, it will take me a while to think of shifting to neutral.
A car at full acceleration can cover much ground in less than 1 second.
The other problem is that I doubt that auto-transmissions will consistently disengage under *fault* conditions.
Your best chance is to be driving a manual transmission.
Every manual transmission driver knows to hit the clutch and brakes at the same time, and will do it instinctively.
Additionally, the manual transmission is less vulnerable to simultaneous failure modes than the modern computer controlled automatic transmission.
For instance, if you are high gear in a manual transmission, it won't automatically down-shift to apply more torque to the wheels when you brake the car to slow it down.
Additionally, if the manual transmission is in low gear, it won't up-shift automatically if the car engine takes off.
The engine may rev-high, but in low gear, at least you won't be going fast.
The manual transmission is much safer in runaway engine conditions.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251518</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251794</id>
	<title>Re:Welp</title>
	<author>operagost</author>
	<datestamp>1266924660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>To clarify, the brakes didn't respond well because at WOT, the vacuum assist has almost no vacuum.  I once didn't believe when I heard in sudden acceleration cases that the brakes also didn't work, until someone reminded me about the air pressure in the manifold.</htmltext>
<tokenext>To clarify , the brakes did n't respond well because at WOT , the vacuum assist has almost no vacuum .
I once did n't believe when I heard in sudden acceleration cases that the brakes also did n't work , until someone reminded me about the air pressure in the manifold .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To clarify, the brakes didn't respond well because at WOT, the vacuum assist has almost no vacuum.
I once didn't believe when I heard in sudden acceleration cases that the brakes also didn't work, until someone reminded me about the air pressure in the manifold.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251450</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251710</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>Haxzaw</author>
	<datestamp>1266924420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There's a difference between small government and a big government with too few people to operate it.  Most first world, if not all, governments fall into the latter category.</htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's a difference between small government and a big government with too few people to operate it .
Most first world , if not all , governments fall into the latter category .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's a difference between small government and a big government with too few people to operate it.
Most first world, if not all, governments fall into the latter category.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250754</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31255340</id>
	<title>Standards, not analysis.</title>
	<author>rickb928</author>
	<datestamp>1266944880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And safety, not peformance.</p><p>Instead of testng code, evaluating the design process, pretending the NHTSA can even begin to become expert in software design, how about applying the old standards to the new systems?</p><p>For instance, braking safety.  I was listening to and reading the testimony from <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35536620/ns/business-us\_business/" title="msn.com">Rhonda Smith</a> [msn.com], where she even describes shifting her Lexus into neutral.  Neutral?</p><p>A simple test, and I'm not an engineer, but shouldn't a car come to a stop with 'maximum' brake effort, despite the acclerator position?  This is solvable in software - if the brakes are going into lock, and ABS is engaged, engine power and/or transmission state have to be compelled to answer the driver's command to stop.  Traction control is already being used in many cars; NHTSA should be able to make a test capable of verifying that even multiple malfunctions are overcome.</p><p>Crap, my wife's 1995 Saab 900SE has a mode where the ECU shuts down the fuel pump if the engine stops running, on the assumption that something is terribly wrong, and spewing gas to a stopped engine is pointless if not dangerous.  How do I know this?  Her car developed a habit of stalling at stops.  The real cause was a defective vapor recovery canister, causing loss of vacuum and low RPMs, and the ECU saw that as a stopped engine and made sure it stopped.</p><p>Certainly there are other states that can be tested for performance and safety, not some quality of performance standard.  Most cars have 'safe' or 'cripple' modes to protect the drivetrain if something seems wrong, like the transmission in a gear that should not permit the indicated speed.  My '95 Explorer does that, and it's only an OBD-I system.  Acclerator position, wheel speed, and transmission mode should all correlate, and if something is wrong the system needs to cripple - slow down, set a max speed, etc.</p><p>Aircraft flight control systems are held out as an example of safety and reliability.  Most of these, if not all, have to at least ensure the aircraft doesn't exceed the flight envelope and exceed safety limits.  This is the sort standard and evaluation the NHTSA needs to focus on.</p><p>Maybe NHTSA needs to borrow a few investigators from the FAA and the military?  They should be looking to Boeing, McDonnell, Electric Boat, General Dynamics for expertise in verifying safety in vehicles.  Maybe even some NASA people.  At least NASA seems to have turned the Shuttle program around a little too late.  They certainly have a cautionary tale to tell, and a jaundiced eye towards the assurances of the 'experts' and trusting management.</p><p>Which would go a long way to reinstating a somewhat adversarial relationship between the regulators and the industry.  There should be some tension there.  Hiring your industry's former employees is not the way to go.</p><p>We can do so much better.  We just need to solve the real problems.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And safety , not peformance.Instead of testng code , evaluating the design process , pretending the NHTSA can even begin to become expert in software design , how about applying the old standards to the new systems ? For instance , braking safety .
I was listening to and reading the testimony from Rhonda Smith [ msn.com ] , where she even describes shifting her Lexus into neutral .
Neutral ? A simple test , and I 'm not an engineer , but should n't a car come to a stop with 'maximum ' brake effort , despite the acclerator position ?
This is solvable in software - if the brakes are going into lock , and ABS is engaged , engine power and/or transmission state have to be compelled to answer the driver 's command to stop .
Traction control is already being used in many cars ; NHTSA should be able to make a test capable of verifying that even multiple malfunctions are overcome.Crap , my wife 's 1995 Saab 900SE has a mode where the ECU shuts down the fuel pump if the engine stops running , on the assumption that something is terribly wrong , and spewing gas to a stopped engine is pointless if not dangerous .
How do I know this ?
Her car developed a habit of stalling at stops .
The real cause was a defective vapor recovery canister , causing loss of vacuum and low RPMs , and the ECU saw that as a stopped engine and made sure it stopped.Certainly there are other states that can be tested for performance and safety , not some quality of performance standard .
Most cars have 'safe ' or 'cripple ' modes to protect the drivetrain if something seems wrong , like the transmission in a gear that should not permit the indicated speed .
My '95 Explorer does that , and it 's only an OBD-I system .
Acclerator position , wheel speed , and transmission mode should all correlate , and if something is wrong the system needs to cripple - slow down , set a max speed , etc.Aircraft flight control systems are held out as an example of safety and reliability .
Most of these , if not all , have to at least ensure the aircraft does n't exceed the flight envelope and exceed safety limits .
This is the sort standard and evaluation the NHTSA needs to focus on.Maybe NHTSA needs to borrow a few investigators from the FAA and the military ?
They should be looking to Boeing , McDonnell , Electric Boat , General Dynamics for expertise in verifying safety in vehicles .
Maybe even some NASA people .
At least NASA seems to have turned the Shuttle program around a little too late .
They certainly have a cautionary tale to tell , and a jaundiced eye towards the assurances of the 'experts ' and trusting management.Which would go a long way to reinstating a somewhat adversarial relationship between the regulators and the industry .
There should be some tension there .
Hiring your industry 's former employees is not the way to go.We can do so much better .
We just need to solve the real problems .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And safety, not peformance.Instead of testng code, evaluating the design process, pretending the NHTSA can even begin to become expert in software design, how about applying the old standards to the new systems?For instance, braking safety.
I was listening to and reading the testimony from Rhonda Smith [msn.com], where she even describes shifting her Lexus into neutral.
Neutral?A simple test, and I'm not an engineer, but shouldn't a car come to a stop with 'maximum' brake effort, despite the acclerator position?
This is solvable in software - if the brakes are going into lock, and ABS is engaged, engine power and/or transmission state have to be compelled to answer the driver's command to stop.
Traction control is already being used in many cars; NHTSA should be able to make a test capable of verifying that even multiple malfunctions are overcome.Crap, my wife's 1995 Saab 900SE has a mode where the ECU shuts down the fuel pump if the engine stops running, on the assumption that something is terribly wrong, and spewing gas to a stopped engine is pointless if not dangerous.
How do I know this?
Her car developed a habit of stalling at stops.
The real cause was a defective vapor recovery canister, causing loss of vacuum and low RPMs, and the ECU saw that as a stopped engine and made sure it stopped.Certainly there are other states that can be tested for performance and safety, not some quality of performance standard.
Most cars have 'safe' or 'cripple' modes to protect the drivetrain if something seems wrong, like the transmission in a gear that should not permit the indicated speed.
My '95 Explorer does that, and it's only an OBD-I system.
Acclerator position, wheel speed, and transmission mode should all correlate, and if something is wrong the system needs to cripple - slow down, set a max speed, etc.Aircraft flight control systems are held out as an example of safety and reliability.
Most of these, if not all, have to at least ensure the aircraft doesn't exceed the flight envelope and exceed safety limits.
This is the sort standard and evaluation the NHTSA needs to focus on.Maybe NHTSA needs to borrow a few investigators from the FAA and the military?
They should be looking to Boeing, McDonnell, Electric Boat, General Dynamics for expertise in verifying safety in vehicles.
Maybe even some NASA people.
At least NASA seems to have turned the Shuttle program around a little too late.
They certainly have a cautionary tale to tell, and a jaundiced eye towards the assurances of the 'experts' and trusting management.Which would go a long way to reinstating a somewhat adversarial relationship between the regulators and the industry.
There should be some tension there.
Hiring your industry's former employees is not the way to go.We can do so much better.
We just need to solve the real problems.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250900</id>
	<title>Re:100 million lines? Sure, we will get right on i</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266921660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Amen!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Amen !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Amen!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250674</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250628</id>
	<title>100 million lines of code??</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266920700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I find that extremely hard to believe.  Jurassic Park ran on just <b>two</b> million lines of code.  I doubt all the lifetime output of all the readers of this thread, combined, equals 100 million.  I further doubt that such complexity is remotely necessary to run a car, and that it is remotely possible to debug that much complexity to the standards of, say, the airline industry.  And that NHTSA could audit that code in any respectable amount of time.  I hope beyond hope the number is wrong.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I find that extremely hard to believe .
Jurassic Park ran on just two million lines of code .
I doubt all the lifetime output of all the readers of this thread , combined , equals 100 million .
I further doubt that such complexity is remotely necessary to run a car , and that it is remotely possible to debug that much complexity to the standards of , say , the airline industry .
And that NHTSA could audit that code in any respectable amount of time .
I hope beyond hope the number is wrong .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I find that extremely hard to believe.
Jurassic Park ran on just two million lines of code.
I doubt all the lifetime output of all the readers of this thread, combined, equals 100 million.
I further doubt that such complexity is remotely necessary to run a car, and that it is remotely possible to debug that much complexity to the standards of, say, the airline industry.
And that NHTSA could audit that code in any respectable amount of time.
I hope beyond hope the number is wrong.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251552</id>
	<title>Not news to me</title>
	<author>VGR</author>
	<datestamp>1266923820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I can't say I find this surprising.  Anyone who has ever worked on software for a US government contractor, or US military contractor, knows the government/military has no one who can analyze the product they pay for.  Nearly every software product I've seen delivered is of absurdly poor quality.  It would be laughable if the implications of the software's use weren't so disturbing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I ca n't say I find this surprising .
Anyone who has ever worked on software for a US government contractor , or US military contractor , knows the government/military has no one who can analyze the product they pay for .
Nearly every software product I 've seen delivered is of absurdly poor quality .
It would be laughable if the implications of the software 's use were n't so disturbing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can't say I find this surprising.
Anyone who has ever worked on software for a US government contractor, or US military contractor, knows the government/military has no one who can analyze the product they pay for.
Nearly every software product I've seen delivered is of absurdly poor quality.
It would be laughable if the implications of the software's use weren't so disturbing.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250786</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>jeffmeden</author>
	<datestamp>1266921180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Are you kidding?  NHTSA sanctions the testing, develops *some* of the test protocols and performs *some* investigative work to identify problems.  Their best strategy to create/keep cars safe in the US is to make sure the manufacturers go through the right processes in creating them.  Does that mean having code auditors at the NHTSA looking over the shoulders of programmers at all the car manufacturers?  I don't think it does.  Does it mean the NHTSA should mandate auto makers to do rigorous code audits of their code, possibly with third party consultants?  That sounds a lot more practical.  The NHTSA (along with most of the government) should be working *smarter*, not harder or bigger (read: more expensively).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Are you kidding ?
NHTSA sanctions the testing , develops * some * of the test protocols and performs * some * investigative work to identify problems .
Their best strategy to create/keep cars safe in the US is to make sure the manufacturers go through the right processes in creating them .
Does that mean having code auditors at the NHTSA looking over the shoulders of programmers at all the car manufacturers ?
I do n't think it does .
Does it mean the NHTSA should mandate auto makers to do rigorous code audits of their code , possibly with third party consultants ?
That sounds a lot more practical .
The NHTSA ( along with most of the government ) should be working * smarter * , not harder or bigger ( read : more expensively ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Are you kidding?
NHTSA sanctions the testing, develops *some* of the test protocols and performs *some* investigative work to identify problems.
Their best strategy to create/keep cars safe in the US is to make sure the manufacturers go through the right processes in creating them.
Does that mean having code auditors at the NHTSA looking over the shoulders of programmers at all the car manufacturers?
I don't think it does.
Does it mean the NHTSA should mandate auto makers to do rigorous code audits of their code, possibly with third party consultants?
That sounds a lot more practical.
The NHTSA (along with most of the government) should be working *smarter*, not harder or bigger (read: more expensively).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250576</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31253256</id>
	<title>Legitimate checks to power</title>
	<author>copponex</author>
	<datestamp>1266931560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The government doesn't have to do anything complicated. It just has to have the ability to strike fear into the hearts of the business community it's supposed to regulate.</p><p>This requires a few things: an independent media, which we don't have; a civically informed populace that takes it's democratic duties seriously, which we don't have; and a culture that values human dignity over profits, which we don't have.</p><p>In cultures that do have all of these things, government regulation works very well and fosters progress, since you don't have to constantly worry about getting screwed over, you don't have to wonder if you'll have access to medical care, or a good public school, or a good safety net to get you back on your feet if your fall ill, get in an accident, or whatever.</p><p>Clear and concise regulation with real penalties for breaking those regulations fosters competitive markets. Diminishing the government to the point where it can be bought and sold by businesses usually leads to fascism. The markets destroy themselves with greed, destabilize the economy (and eventually the whole society), and further concentrate wealth and power until you have a virtual oligarchy sprinkled with political theater.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The government does n't have to do anything complicated .
It just has to have the ability to strike fear into the hearts of the business community it 's supposed to regulate.This requires a few things : an independent media , which we do n't have ; a civically informed populace that takes it 's democratic duties seriously , which we do n't have ; and a culture that values human dignity over profits , which we do n't have.In cultures that do have all of these things , government regulation works very well and fosters progress , since you do n't have to constantly worry about getting screwed over , you do n't have to wonder if you 'll have access to medical care , or a good public school , or a good safety net to get you back on your feet if your fall ill , get in an accident , or whatever.Clear and concise regulation with real penalties for breaking those regulations fosters competitive markets .
Diminishing the government to the point where it can be bought and sold by businesses usually leads to fascism .
The markets destroy themselves with greed , destabilize the economy ( and eventually the whole society ) , and further concentrate wealth and power until you have a virtual oligarchy sprinkled with political theater .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The government doesn't have to do anything complicated.
It just has to have the ability to strike fear into the hearts of the business community it's supposed to regulate.This requires a few things: an independent media, which we don't have; a civically informed populace that takes it's democratic duties seriously, which we don't have; and a culture that values human dignity over profits, which we don't have.In cultures that do have all of these things, government regulation works very well and fosters progress, since you don't have to constantly worry about getting screwed over, you don't have to wonder if you'll have access to medical care, or a good public school, or a good safety net to get you back on your feet if your fall ill, get in an accident, or whatever.Clear and concise regulation with real penalties for breaking those regulations fosters competitive markets.
Diminishing the government to the point where it can be bought and sold by businesses usually leads to fascism.
The markets destroy themselves with greed, destabilize the economy (and eventually the whole society), and further concentrate wealth and power until you have a virtual oligarchy sprinkled with political theater.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251116</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31256810</id>
	<title>really?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265103300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Surprised no one scoffed at the "100 million lines of code" bit. Thats ludicrous for a car application. Probably a 100MB *system image* more likely.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Surprised no one scoffed at the " 100 million lines of code " bit .
Thats ludicrous for a car application .
Probably a 100MB * system image * more likely .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Surprised no one scoffed at the "100 million lines of code" bit.
Thats ludicrous for a car application.
Probably a 100MB *system image* more likely.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251106</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>wisnoskij</author>
	<datestamp>1266922200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>"How in the hell does the NHTSA even do their job?"<br>
Like every other safety certification organization. The car companies pay for a certificate, NHTSA takes some of the blame when something happens, and the general population feels safe knowing their is an entire organization dedicated to protecting them.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" How in the hell does the NHTSA even do their job ?
" Like every other safety certification organization .
The car companies pay for a certificate , NHTSA takes some of the blame when something happens , and the general population feels safe knowing their is an entire organization dedicated to protecting them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"How in the hell does the NHTSA even do their job?
"
Like every other safety certification organization.
The car companies pay for a certificate, NHTSA takes some of the blame when something happens, and the general population feels safe knowing their is an entire organization dedicated to protecting them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250576</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31256834</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265103540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We didn't see deregulation of the banking industry... we saw government meddling in the banking industry.<br>Deregulation means hands-off, not Barney Frank (D) "encouraging" them to make loans "affordable" to people who couldn't afford them while accepting bribes from Fanny and Freddie.</p><p>We don't need to regulate the banking industry, we need to regulate the federal government and get rid of all the shady dealing going on behind the scenes.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We did n't see deregulation of the banking industry... we saw government meddling in the banking industry.Deregulation means hands-off , not Barney Frank ( D ) " encouraging " them to make loans " affordable " to people who could n't afford them while accepting bribes from Fanny and Freddie.We do n't need to regulate the banking industry , we need to regulate the federal government and get rid of all the shady dealing going on behind the scenes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We didn't see deregulation of the banking industry... we saw government meddling in the banking industry.Deregulation means hands-off, not Barney Frank (D) "encouraging" them to make loans "affordable" to people who couldn't afford them while accepting bribes from Fanny and Freddie.We don't need to regulate the banking industry, we need to regulate the federal government and get rid of all the shady dealing going on behind the scenes.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251002</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251678</id>
	<title>wince</title>
	<author>sounds</author>
	<datestamp>1266924300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Easy solution: The government can just sign new legislation requiring all automobile firmware to run on Microsoft WINCE or something equivalent, then there will be one standard.  Should be plenty of out-of-work Windows developers out there.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Easy solution : The government can just sign new legislation requiring all automobile firmware to run on Microsoft WINCE or something equivalent , then there will be one standard .
Should be plenty of out-of-work Windows developers out there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Easy solution: The government can just sign new legislation requiring all automobile firmware to run on Microsoft WINCE or something equivalent, then there will be one standard.
Should be plenty of out-of-work Windows developers out there.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31253342</id>
	<title>Re:This is the government, not an engineering firm</title>
	<author>kidgenius</author>
	<datestamp>1266931980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Why not? The FAA hires engineers.

With the way cars are going, I am scared to think of how much computer control is being done (drive by wire, brake by wire, etc), with little to no oversight from an regulatory agency ensuring the safety of the cars.  I work in aerospace and my boss is an FAA DER.  The amount of safety review done on an airplane is insane. I think that at least some of that analysis should be applied to cars, now that we are giving up so much of the control in the vehicles to them.  someone quoted DO-178B for cars...not necessarily a bad idea.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why not ?
The FAA hires engineers .
With the way cars are going , I am scared to think of how much computer control is being done ( drive by wire , brake by wire , etc ) , with little to no oversight from an regulatory agency ensuring the safety of the cars .
I work in aerospace and my boss is an FAA DER .
The amount of safety review done on an airplane is insane .
I think that at least some of that analysis should be applied to cars , now that we are giving up so much of the control in the vehicles to them .
someone quoted DO-178B for cars...not necessarily a bad idea .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why not?
The FAA hires engineers.
With the way cars are going, I am scared to think of how much computer control is being done (drive by wire, brake by wire, etc), with little to no oversight from an regulatory agency ensuring the safety of the cars.
I work in aerospace and my boss is an FAA DER.
The amount of safety review done on an airplane is insane.
I think that at least some of that analysis should be applied to cars, now that we are giving up so much of the control in the vehicles to them.
someone quoted DO-178B for cars...not necessarily a bad idea.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251170</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31253438</id>
	<title>Computer vs car industry</title>
	<author>Shompol</author>
	<datestamp>1266932400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>souce <a href="http://www.thenetworkadministrator.com/ComputerVsCarindustry.htm" title="thenetwork...trator.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.thenetworkadministrator.com/ComputerVsCarindustry.htm</a> [thenetwork...trator.com]
<br> <br>
<b>Computer vs car industry</b>
<br> <br>
Bill Gates reportedly compared the computer industry with the auto industry and stated "If GM had kept up with the technology like the computer industry has, If we would all be driving $25 cars that got 1,000 miles to the gallon."
<br> <br>
In response to Bill's comments, General Motors issued a press release stating "If GM had developed technology like Microsoft, we would all be driving cars with the following characteristics:
<br> <br>
l. For no reason whatsoever, your car would crash twice a day.
<br> <br>
2. Every time they repainted the lines in the road, you would have to buy a new car.
<br> <br>
3. Occasionally your car would die on the freeway for no reason. You would have to pull over to the side of the road, close all of the windows, shut off the car, restart it, and reopen the windows before you could continue. For some reason you would simply accept this.
<br> <br>
4. Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, was reliable, five times as fast and twice as easy to drive - but would run on only five percent of the roads.
<br> <br>
5. The oil, water temperature, and alternator warning lights would all be replaced by a single "General Protection Fault" warning light.
<br> <br>
6. The airbag system would ask "are you sure" before deploying.
<br> <br>
7. Occasionally, for no reason whatsoever, your car would lock you out and refuse to let you in until you simultaneously lifted the door handle, turned the key and grabbed hold of the radio antenna.
<br> <br>
8. Every time GM introduced a new car, car buyers would have to learn to drive all over again because none of the controls would operate in the same manner as the old car.
<br> <br>
9. You'd have to press the "Start" button to turn the engine off.</htmltext>
<tokenext>souce http : //www.thenetworkadministrator.com/ComputerVsCarindustry.htm [ thenetwork...trator.com ] Computer vs car industry Bill Gates reportedly compared the computer industry with the auto industry and stated " If GM had kept up with the technology like the computer industry has , If we would all be driving $ 25 cars that got 1,000 miles to the gallon .
" In response to Bill 's comments , General Motors issued a press release stating " If GM had developed technology like Microsoft , we would all be driving cars with the following characteristics : l. For no reason whatsoever , your car would crash twice a day .
2. Every time they repainted the lines in the road , you would have to buy a new car .
3. Occasionally your car would die on the freeway for no reason .
You would have to pull over to the side of the road , close all of the windows , shut off the car , restart it , and reopen the windows before you could continue .
For some reason you would simply accept this .
4. Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun , was reliable , five times as fast and twice as easy to drive - but would run on only five percent of the roads .
5. The oil , water temperature , and alternator warning lights would all be replaced by a single " General Protection Fault " warning light .
6. The airbag system would ask " are you sure " before deploying .
7. Occasionally , for no reason whatsoever , your car would lock you out and refuse to let you in until you simultaneously lifted the door handle , turned the key and grabbed hold of the radio antenna .
8. Every time GM introduced a new car , car buyers would have to learn to drive all over again because none of the controls would operate in the same manner as the old car .
9. You 'd have to press the " Start " button to turn the engine off .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>souce http://www.thenetworkadministrator.com/ComputerVsCarindustry.htm [thenetwork...trator.com]
 
Computer vs car industry
 
Bill Gates reportedly compared the computer industry with the auto industry and stated "If GM had kept up with the technology like the computer industry has, If we would all be driving $25 cars that got 1,000 miles to the gallon.
"
 
In response to Bill's comments, General Motors issued a press release stating "If GM had developed technology like Microsoft, we would all be driving cars with the following characteristics:
 
l. For no reason whatsoever, your car would crash twice a day.
2. Every time they repainted the lines in the road, you would have to buy a new car.
3. Occasionally your car would die on the freeway for no reason.
You would have to pull over to the side of the road, close all of the windows, shut off the car, restart it, and reopen the windows before you could continue.
For some reason you would simply accept this.
4. Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, was reliable, five times as fast and twice as easy to drive - but would run on only five percent of the roads.
5. The oil, water temperature, and alternator warning lights would all be replaced by a single "General Protection Fault" warning light.
6. The airbag system would ask "are you sure" before deploying.
7. Occasionally, for no reason whatsoever, your car would lock you out and refuse to let you in until you simultaneously lifted the door handle, turned the key and grabbed hold of the radio antenna.
8. Every time GM introduced a new car, car buyers would have to learn to drive all over again because none of the controls would operate in the same manner as the old car.
9. You'd have to press the "Start" button to turn the engine off.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31252836</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>Sleepy</author>
	<datestamp>1266929580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt;You *do* know that a regulation-heavy environment favors big business, not small business, right?</p><p>This is a fallacy which assumes - in the ABSENCE of governments - that humans are greater than corporations.</p><p>Yeah, right.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; You * do * know that a regulation-heavy environment favors big business , not small business , right ? This is a fallacy which assumes - in the ABSENCE of governments - that humans are greater than corporations.Yeah , right .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt;You *do* know that a regulation-heavy environment favors big business, not small business, right?This is a fallacy which assumes - in the ABSENCE of governments - that humans are greater than corporations.Yeah, right.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251116</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250954</id>
	<title>Re:100 million lines? Sure, we will get right on i</title>
	<author>keithjr</author>
	<datestamp>1266921780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Who's going to identify the write said reports, and identify the risks?  Are you trusting Toyota to do this in-house?  Because the article shows the NHTSA has <i>zero</i> qualifications do any diligence on its own.  <br> <br>

A line-by-line audit is silly, and nobody is suggesting this.  However, I can't see why the department that oversees embedded systems (automobiles) has no electrical engineering talent on hand.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Who 's going to identify the write said reports , and identify the risks ?
Are you trusting Toyota to do this in-house ?
Because the article shows the NHTSA has zero qualifications do any diligence on its own .
A line-by-line audit is silly , and nobody is suggesting this .
However , I ca n't see why the department that oversees embedded systems ( automobiles ) has no electrical engineering talent on hand .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Who's going to identify the write said reports, and identify the risks?
Are you trusting Toyota to do this in-house?
Because the article shows the NHTSA has zero qualifications do any diligence on its own.
A line-by-line audit is silly, and nobody is suggesting this.
However, I can't see why the department that oversees embedded systems (automobiles) has no electrical engineering talent on hand.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250674</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31259932</id>
	<title>Typical government operation</title>
	<author>RogueWarrior65</author>
	<datestamp>1265129040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is just typical of a government-run "authority".  Another way to look at it is the Peter Principle: People rise to their own level of incompetence.  This bloated money-pit agency doesn't employ real engineers yet they have the authority to screw Toyota over.  It's no different that some brain-dead congressman telling an automotive engineer that they should "repeal the laws of thermodynamics".  And people are willing to trust this same government with their healthcare decisions?  F*ck that and the horse they rode in on.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is just typical of a government-run " authority " .
Another way to look at it is the Peter Principle : People rise to their own level of incompetence .
This bloated money-pit agency does n't employ real engineers yet they have the authority to screw Toyota over .
It 's no different that some brain-dead congressman telling an automotive engineer that they should " repeal the laws of thermodynamics " .
And people are willing to trust this same government with their healthcare decisions ?
F * ck that and the horse they rode in on .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is just typical of a government-run "authority".
Another way to look at it is the Peter Principle: People rise to their own level of incompetence.
This bloated money-pit agency doesn't employ real engineers yet they have the authority to screw Toyota over.
It's no different that some brain-dead congressman telling an automotive engineer that they should "repeal the laws of thermodynamics".
And people are willing to trust this same government with their healthcare decisions?
F*ck that and the horse they rode in on.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250724</id>
	<title>Microsoft Hotline</title>
	<author>imscarr</author>
	<datestamp>1266921000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Can't they just call Microsoft's toll-free number and ask someone over there to look at it?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ca n't they just call Microsoft 's toll-free number and ask someone over there to look at it ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Can't they just call Microsoft's toll-free number and ask someone over there to look at it?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31253886</id>
	<title>Re:running on 70 to 100 microprocessors???</title>
	<author>Cassini2</author>
	<datestamp>1266934860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Essentially, every chip on the modern circuit board is either an MCU, an ASIC, or some kind of specialized power/interface device.  Additionally, many of the specialized power, interface devices and ASICs are also MCUs.  For instance, some of the older AM/FM radio have two MCUs: one for the radio/tuning, and another to drive the display.  I have no idea how many controllers it takes for a modern XM radio, but the number could be significant.
</p><p>For example:
<br>- The tuner has it's own MCUs, and possibly one per band (XM, AM/FM),
<br>- The CD player servo assembly likely has an MCU,
<br>- The display controller is either an MCU or a firmware programmed device, and
<br>- Most modern DACs use fancy algorithms to optimize the frequency response curve, and as such contain either an MCU or a primitive firmware programmed device.
<br>Essentially, every chip of consequence in the XM Radio is likely either an MCU or some kind of special purpose programmed device.  If you start counting programmable chips in terms of the really simple devices, the numbers get large quick.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Essentially , every chip on the modern circuit board is either an MCU , an ASIC , or some kind of specialized power/interface device .
Additionally , many of the specialized power , interface devices and ASICs are also MCUs .
For instance , some of the older AM/FM radio have two MCUs : one for the radio/tuning , and another to drive the display .
I have no idea how many controllers it takes for a modern XM radio , but the number could be significant .
For example : - The tuner has it 's own MCUs , and possibly one per band ( XM , AM/FM ) , - The CD player servo assembly likely has an MCU , - The display controller is either an MCU or a firmware programmed device , and - Most modern DACs use fancy algorithms to optimize the frequency response curve , and as such contain either an MCU or a primitive firmware programmed device .
Essentially , every chip of consequence in the XM Radio is likely either an MCU or some kind of special purpose programmed device .
If you start counting programmable chips in terms of the really simple devices , the numbers get large quick .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Essentially, every chip on the modern circuit board is either an MCU, an ASIC, or some kind of specialized power/interface device.
Additionally, many of the specialized power, interface devices and ASICs are also MCUs.
For instance, some of the older AM/FM radio have two MCUs: one for the radio/tuning, and another to drive the display.
I have no idea how many controllers it takes for a modern XM radio, but the number could be significant.
For example:
- The tuner has it's own MCUs, and possibly one per band (XM, AM/FM),
- The CD player servo assembly likely has an MCU,
- The display controller is either an MCU or a firmware programmed device, and
- Most modern DACs use fancy algorithms to optimize the frequency response curve, and as such contain either an MCU or a primitive firmware programmed device.
Essentially, every chip of consequence in the XM Radio is likely either an MCU or some kind of special purpose programmed device.
If you start counting programmable chips in terms of the really simple devices, the numbers get large quick.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251570</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31252136</id>
	<title>Seems like a lot of code</title>
	<author>FrozenGeek</author>
	<datestamp>1266926280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>When I worked for a major telecom equipment manufacturer in the 90s, we had a monolithic software build for our main switching product (class 4/5 switch), and the total lines of code were 20 million.  I find it incomprehensible that a luxury car requires 5 times as much code.  If it's true, they need to do a rethink as there's no way they should need that much code.  And, frankly, there's no way they will test that code completely every time they update it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>When I worked for a major telecom equipment manufacturer in the 90s , we had a monolithic software build for our main switching product ( class 4/5 switch ) , and the total lines of code were 20 million .
I find it incomprehensible that a luxury car requires 5 times as much code .
If it 's true , they need to do a rethink as there 's no way they should need that much code .
And , frankly , there 's no way they will test that code completely every time they update it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I worked for a major telecom equipment manufacturer in the 90s, we had a monolithic software build for our main switching product (class 4/5 switch), and the total lines of code were 20 million.
I find it incomprehensible that a luxury car requires 5 times as much code.
If it's true, they need to do a rethink as there's no way they should need that much code.
And, frankly, there's no way they will test that code completely every time they update it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31255040</id>
	<title>Re:advice for anyone with a runaway gas pedal</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266942660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Shift into neutral.  I haven't seen this anywhere as part of the many Toyota-related discussions around the world, so figured I'd mention it.</p></div><p>What you haven't heard much is that for at least some of the people who tried neutral -- it didn't work. Oops. Maybe the shifter was also stuck in the floor mat?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Shift into neutral .
I have n't seen this anywhere as part of the many Toyota-related discussions around the world , so figured I 'd mention it.What you have n't heard much is that for at least some of the people who tried neutral -- it did n't work .
Oops. Maybe the shifter was also stuck in the floor mat ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Shift into neutral.
I haven't seen this anywhere as part of the many Toyota-related discussions around the world, so figured I'd mention it.What you haven't heard much is that for at least some of the people who tried neutral -- it didn't work.
Oops. Maybe the shifter was also stuck in the floor mat?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251518</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251448</id>
	<title>Re:100 million lines? Sure, we will get right on i</title>
	<author>bhtooefr</author>
	<datestamp>1266923400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And they said in a modern luxury car.</p><p>So that's all the code in the following computers:</p><p>Engine (controls throttle and such)<br>Transmission<br>Collision avoidance (ABS, traction control, etc. TPMS is usually here, too, because it's sometimes part of the ABS system to save costs)<br>Safety (airbags, seatbelt pretensioners, etc.)<br>Central convenience (security system, power locks, power windows, cabin illumination, in some cars even the exterior lighting goes through central convenience)<br>HVAC<br>Instrumentation (yep, there's a computer dedicated to that - and some security functions are sometimes in there)<br>Entertainment (navigation, stereo, DVD, etc., etc.)</p><p>And all these systems are interconnected.</p><p>You get in your car (central convenience deactivates security upon receiving the signal, and when you open the door, it illuminates the cabin, alerts the engine computer that a start is imminent, possibly starting fuel pumps, on diesel cars turning on the glow plugs, etc., etc., and notifies the instrument cluster that the door is ajar.)</p><p>You insert your key into the ignition (yes, I know about push-button start,) and start the engine (engine computer starts up, after which the instrument cluster polls the RFID chip on the key. If it can't get a read, it immediately requests that the engine computer shut down.)</p><p>You decide that you want a little heat before you set off, so you use your steering wheel controls (which go through instrumentation) to set HVAC settings, and then you figure some music won't hurt (entertainment.) Then, you remember that you don't know where you're going, so you punch the address into the navigation system, and it feeds directions back to the instrument cluster.</p><p>Now, you put the car into gear. The transmission computer notifies the other computers about this, and the engine computer adjusts the idle fueling to compensate. The instrument computer reflects the gear change. The central convenience module turns on the daytime running lights. The entertainment system might prevent you from using the touchscreen interface. The safety computer may become more persistent about reminding you that you didn't put on your seat belt, and will notify the instrument cluster of this, to annoy you more.</p><p>After you put your seatbelt on, you let off the brake and pull out of your parking space. Obviously, the engine computer and transmission computer are working together here, the instrument cluster is constantly updating the status of those (and the entertainment computer, which is noting the changes in vehicle position.) After you hit 10 MPH, the engine or transmission computer sends a request to the central convenience module to lock the doors.</p><p>Now, you're going down the freeway, and right in front of you, a semi truck loses control, and flips onto its side. You jam on the brakes, which kills engine power immediately (engine computer, and the transmission computer is affected as well, and this all gets fed back to the instrument computer.) Collision avoidance computer activates ABS and (as you're attempting to swerve out of the way) stability control, and notifies the central convenience computer that you're undergoing a panic stop, and to activate the hazards.</p><p>Unfortunately, you don't have enough time and room to stop, and you hit the semi. The safety computer notices this, and fires the seatbelt pretensioners and the appropriate airbags. Once that's done, there's some less immediate concerns. It would be a bad idea to leave the engine running, so the safety computer requests an engine shutdown. The transmission computer may be requested to shift to neutral, to make moving the wreck easier. The entertainment system will be told to stop playing music, and if it's got a system like OnStar (which used to be yet another TWO separate computers off of the entertainment system,) an emergency call initiated. Instrumentation is of course updating the status of all of this. HVAC may be set to off. The collision avoidance computer will still be trying to keep t</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And they said in a modern luxury car.So that 's all the code in the following computers : Engine ( controls throttle and such ) TransmissionCollision avoidance ( ABS , traction control , etc .
TPMS is usually here , too , because it 's sometimes part of the ABS system to save costs ) Safety ( airbags , seatbelt pretensioners , etc .
) Central convenience ( security system , power locks , power windows , cabin illumination , in some cars even the exterior lighting goes through central convenience ) HVACInstrumentation ( yep , there 's a computer dedicated to that - and some security functions are sometimes in there ) Entertainment ( navigation , stereo , DVD , etc. , etc .
) And all these systems are interconnected.You get in your car ( central convenience deactivates security upon receiving the signal , and when you open the door , it illuminates the cabin , alerts the engine computer that a start is imminent , possibly starting fuel pumps , on diesel cars turning on the glow plugs , etc. , etc. , and notifies the instrument cluster that the door is ajar .
) You insert your key into the ignition ( yes , I know about push-button start , ) and start the engine ( engine computer starts up , after which the instrument cluster polls the RFID chip on the key .
If it ca n't get a read , it immediately requests that the engine computer shut down .
) You decide that you want a little heat before you set off , so you use your steering wheel controls ( which go through instrumentation ) to set HVAC settings , and then you figure some music wo n't hurt ( entertainment .
) Then , you remember that you do n't know where you 're going , so you punch the address into the navigation system , and it feeds directions back to the instrument cluster.Now , you put the car into gear .
The transmission computer notifies the other computers about this , and the engine computer adjusts the idle fueling to compensate .
The instrument computer reflects the gear change .
The central convenience module turns on the daytime running lights .
The entertainment system might prevent you from using the touchscreen interface .
The safety computer may become more persistent about reminding you that you did n't put on your seat belt , and will notify the instrument cluster of this , to annoy you more.After you put your seatbelt on , you let off the brake and pull out of your parking space .
Obviously , the engine computer and transmission computer are working together here , the instrument cluster is constantly updating the status of those ( and the entertainment computer , which is noting the changes in vehicle position .
) After you hit 10 MPH , the engine or transmission computer sends a request to the central convenience module to lock the doors.Now , you 're going down the freeway , and right in front of you , a semi truck loses control , and flips onto its side .
You jam on the brakes , which kills engine power immediately ( engine computer , and the transmission computer is affected as well , and this all gets fed back to the instrument computer .
) Collision avoidance computer activates ABS and ( as you 're attempting to swerve out of the way ) stability control , and notifies the central convenience computer that you 're undergoing a panic stop , and to activate the hazards.Unfortunately , you do n't have enough time and room to stop , and you hit the semi .
The safety computer notices this , and fires the seatbelt pretensioners and the appropriate airbags .
Once that 's done , there 's some less immediate concerns .
It would be a bad idea to leave the engine running , so the safety computer requests an engine shutdown .
The transmission computer may be requested to shift to neutral , to make moving the wreck easier .
The entertainment system will be told to stop playing music , and if it 's got a system like OnStar ( which used to be yet another TWO separate computers off of the entertainment system , ) an emergency call initiated .
Instrumentation is of course updating the status of all of this .
HVAC may be set to off .
The collision avoidance computer will still be trying to keep t</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And they said in a modern luxury car.So that's all the code in the following computers:Engine (controls throttle and such)TransmissionCollision avoidance (ABS, traction control, etc.
TPMS is usually here, too, because it's sometimes part of the ABS system to save costs)Safety (airbags, seatbelt pretensioners, etc.
)Central convenience (security system, power locks, power windows, cabin illumination, in some cars even the exterior lighting goes through central convenience)HVACInstrumentation (yep, there's a computer dedicated to that - and some security functions are sometimes in there)Entertainment (navigation, stereo, DVD, etc., etc.
)And all these systems are interconnected.You get in your car (central convenience deactivates security upon receiving the signal, and when you open the door, it illuminates the cabin, alerts the engine computer that a start is imminent, possibly starting fuel pumps, on diesel cars turning on the glow plugs, etc., etc., and notifies the instrument cluster that the door is ajar.
)You insert your key into the ignition (yes, I know about push-button start,) and start the engine (engine computer starts up, after which the instrument cluster polls the RFID chip on the key.
If it can't get a read, it immediately requests that the engine computer shut down.
)You decide that you want a little heat before you set off, so you use your steering wheel controls (which go through instrumentation) to set HVAC settings, and then you figure some music won't hurt (entertainment.
) Then, you remember that you don't know where you're going, so you punch the address into the navigation system, and it feeds directions back to the instrument cluster.Now, you put the car into gear.
The transmission computer notifies the other computers about this, and the engine computer adjusts the idle fueling to compensate.
The instrument computer reflects the gear change.
The central convenience module turns on the daytime running lights.
The entertainment system might prevent you from using the touchscreen interface.
The safety computer may become more persistent about reminding you that you didn't put on your seat belt, and will notify the instrument cluster of this, to annoy you more.After you put your seatbelt on, you let off the brake and pull out of your parking space.
Obviously, the engine computer and transmission computer are working together here, the instrument cluster is constantly updating the status of those (and the entertainment computer, which is noting the changes in vehicle position.
) After you hit 10 MPH, the engine or transmission computer sends a request to the central convenience module to lock the doors.Now, you're going down the freeway, and right in front of you, a semi truck loses control, and flips onto its side.
You jam on the brakes, which kills engine power immediately (engine computer, and the transmission computer is affected as well, and this all gets fed back to the instrument computer.
) Collision avoidance computer activates ABS and (as you're attempting to swerve out of the way) stability control, and notifies the central convenience computer that you're undergoing a panic stop, and to activate the hazards.Unfortunately, you don't have enough time and room to stop, and you hit the semi.
The safety computer notices this, and fires the seatbelt pretensioners and the appropriate airbags.
Once that's done, there's some less immediate concerns.
It would be a bad idea to leave the engine running, so the safety computer requests an engine shutdown.
The transmission computer may be requested to shift to neutral, to make moving the wreck easier.
The entertainment system will be told to stop playing music, and if it's got a system like OnStar (which used to be yet another TWO separate computers off of the entertainment system,) an emergency call initiated.
Instrumentation is of course updating the status of all of this.
HVAC may be set to off.
The collision avoidance computer will still be trying to keep t</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250854</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251024</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>Areyoukiddingme</author>
	<datestamp>1266921960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I mean, just how many engineers need to be hired to make you feel safe?</p></div></blockquote><p>One would be a good start.  Oh hell, let's get wild and crazy and say.. 2.
</p><p>
Certainly more than zero.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I mean , just how many engineers need to be hired to make you feel safe ? One would be a good start .
Oh hell , let 's get wild and crazy and say.. 2 . Certainly more than zero .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I mean, just how many engineers need to be hired to make you feel safe?One would be a good start.
Oh hell, let's get wild and crazy and say.. 2.

Certainly more than zero.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250746</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31261226</id>
	<title>so much for car analogies</title>
	<author>cellocgw</author>
	<datestamp>1265134500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How are those poor software jocks about to be hired by Highway Safety going to do their coding analogies now?<br>"Ummm, the Toyota braking software is like a car that is braking with braking software that is like...."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How are those poor software jocks about to be hired by Highway Safety going to do their coding analogies now ?
" Ummm , the Toyota braking software is like a car that is braking with braking software that is like.... "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How are those poor software jocks about to be hired by Highway Safety going to do their coding analogies now?
"Ummm, the Toyota braking software is like a car that is braking with braking software that is like...."</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250576</id>
	<title>Heads better roll</title>
	<author>dave562</author>
	<datestamp>1266920520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If the statement in the article is true then this country is in even worse shape than I thought.  It seems like rarely a handful of months can go by without the realization that yet another Federal department is completely incompetent.  How in the hell does the NHTSA even do their job?!  They are supposed to ensure that vehicles are safe but they don't even have the staff to do that.</p><p>What the hell is wrong with our country?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If the statement in the article is true then this country is in even worse shape than I thought .
It seems like rarely a handful of months can go by without the realization that yet another Federal department is completely incompetent .
How in the hell does the NHTSA even do their job ? !
They are supposed to ensure that vehicles are safe but they do n't even have the staff to do that.What the hell is wrong with our country ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the statement in the article is true then this country is in even worse shape than I thought.
It seems like rarely a handful of months can go by without the realization that yet another Federal department is completely incompetent.
How in the hell does the NHTSA even do their job?!
They are supposed to ensure that vehicles are safe but they don't even have the staff to do that.What the hell is wrong with our country?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31254346</id>
	<title>Drive-by-wire has been around for a while.</title>
	<author>cvtan</author>
	<datestamp>1266937860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>BMW has had drive by wire throttles in production since 1988 750iL V12.  Slowly migrated down to cheaper models over the years.  Not much in the way of serious problems.  Stepper motors running the throttle can fail, but this is more of an annoying expense than a safety disaster.  My MINI Cooper has drive by wire and works fine.  Makes it easy to implement cruise control and traction control. Throttle control is by dual redundant pots that "vote" on throttle opening.  If something acts screwy, it goes into limp-home mode.  The only throttle control problems I've had were with cars with mechanical linkage that got bound up from rust/old age.</htmltext>
<tokenext>BMW has had drive by wire throttles in production since 1988 750iL V12 .
Slowly migrated down to cheaper models over the years .
Not much in the way of serious problems .
Stepper motors running the throttle can fail , but this is more of an annoying expense than a safety disaster .
My MINI Cooper has drive by wire and works fine .
Makes it easy to implement cruise control and traction control .
Throttle control is by dual redundant pots that " vote " on throttle opening .
If something acts screwy , it goes into limp-home mode .
The only throttle control problems I 've had were with cars with mechanical linkage that got bound up from rust/old age .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>BMW has had drive by wire throttles in production since 1988 750iL V12.
Slowly migrated down to cheaper models over the years.
Not much in the way of serious problems.
Stepper motors running the throttle can fail, but this is more of an annoying expense than a safety disaster.
My MINI Cooper has drive by wire and works fine.
Makes it easy to implement cruise control and traction control.
Throttle control is by dual redundant pots that "vote" on throttle opening.
If something acts screwy, it goes into limp-home mode.
The only throttle control problems I've had were with cars with mechanical linkage that got bound up from rust/old age.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31255562</id>
	<title>Re:advice for anyone with a runaway gas pedal</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266947100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That only works if you have a real manual transmission with a foot-pedal for the clutch (manumatic/tiptronic GTFO!) in newer cars. Most of them now have computer controlled gearboxes, so in the event of a bug in the control system, you're fucked. The sobbing woman with the runaway Lexus (oh what a feeling: Toyota!) at the hearing claimed to have "tried to shift into neutral and every other gear at 100 MPH" and it was only "God" who saved her (eventually).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That only works if you have a real manual transmission with a foot-pedal for the clutch ( manumatic/tiptronic GTFO !
) in newer cars .
Most of them now have computer controlled gearboxes , so in the event of a bug in the control system , you 're fucked .
The sobbing woman with the runaway Lexus ( oh what a feeling : Toyota !
) at the hearing claimed to have " tried to shift into neutral and every other gear at 100 MPH " and it was only " God " who saved her ( eventually ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That only works if you have a real manual transmission with a foot-pedal for the clutch (manumatic/tiptronic GTFO!
) in newer cars.
Most of them now have computer controlled gearboxes, so in the event of a bug in the control system, you're fucked.
The sobbing woman with the runaway Lexus (oh what a feeling: Toyota!
) at the hearing claimed to have "tried to shift into neutral and every other gear at 100 MPH" and it was only "God" who saved her (eventually).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251518</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31263506</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>magus\_melchior</author>
	<datestamp>1265143740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>This poorly functioning government is a direct result of the dual conservative mantras: 1) deregulation of markets is necessary for them to perform well and 2) less government is better.</p></div></blockquote><p>If conservatives were honest with themselves, the mantra is: Destroy the parts of government that we don't like and won't get us voted out of office. It started with Nixon when he set out to destroy certain elements of LBJ's (then-new) departments by appointing political allies as secretaries or heads of said departments, and it's been the same song and dance ever since when a Republican was elected into the White House: Appoint buddies or idiots to the departments you don't like or care about, and use their failures as an excuse to eliminate them.</p><p>You'll notice that even though they talk a nice campaign speech about privatizing Medicare/Social Security (and some completely insane twits like Bachmann will say this crap even off the campaign trail-- though to be honest, she's <i>always</i> campaigning because she is both disturbed and foolish enough that she has to in order to remain in office), when reforms to shrink them come up they're among the first to cry "they're killing our seniors!!"-- not to mention, part D, one of the biggest and least efficient expansions of Medicare in recent history, was passed by a Republican Congress/President using budget reconciliation. They are not interested in shrinking government to a mythical "efficient size", despite what activists like Grover Norquist may say, they want only the parts that empower them. How else would they condone an OLC who almost authorized the creation of a Presidency above Constitutional authority?</p><p>It's just yet another example of conservatism claiming to know what's best for public policy and governance, and demonstrating that they are completely incompetent and/or ignorant that human nature will always thwart their best-intended theories.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>This poorly functioning government is a direct result of the dual conservative mantras : 1 ) deregulation of markets is necessary for them to perform well and 2 ) less government is better.If conservatives were honest with themselves , the mantra is : Destroy the parts of government that we do n't like and wo n't get us voted out of office .
It started with Nixon when he set out to destroy certain elements of LBJ 's ( then-new ) departments by appointing political allies as secretaries or heads of said departments , and it 's been the same song and dance ever since when a Republican was elected into the White House : Appoint buddies or idiots to the departments you do n't like or care about , and use their failures as an excuse to eliminate them.You 'll notice that even though they talk a nice campaign speech about privatizing Medicare/Social Security ( and some completely insane twits like Bachmann will say this crap even off the campaign trail-- though to be honest , she 's always campaigning because she is both disturbed and foolish enough that she has to in order to remain in office ) , when reforms to shrink them come up they 're among the first to cry " they 're killing our seniors ! !
" -- not to mention , part D , one of the biggest and least efficient expansions of Medicare in recent history , was passed by a Republican Congress/President using budget reconciliation .
They are not interested in shrinking government to a mythical " efficient size " , despite what activists like Grover Norquist may say , they want only the parts that empower them .
How else would they condone an OLC who almost authorized the creation of a Presidency above Constitutional authority ? It 's just yet another example of conservatism claiming to know what 's best for public policy and governance , and demonstrating that they are completely incompetent and/or ignorant that human nature will always thwart their best-intended theories .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This poorly functioning government is a direct result of the dual conservative mantras: 1) deregulation of markets is necessary for them to perform well and 2) less government is better.If conservatives were honest with themselves, the mantra is: Destroy the parts of government that we don't like and won't get us voted out of office.
It started with Nixon when he set out to destroy certain elements of LBJ's (then-new) departments by appointing political allies as secretaries or heads of said departments, and it's been the same song and dance ever since when a Republican was elected into the White House: Appoint buddies or idiots to the departments you don't like or care about, and use their failures as an excuse to eliminate them.You'll notice that even though they talk a nice campaign speech about privatizing Medicare/Social Security (and some completely insane twits like Bachmann will say this crap even off the campaign trail-- though to be honest, she's always campaigning because she is both disturbed and foolish enough that she has to in order to remain in office), when reforms to shrink them come up they're among the first to cry "they're killing our seniors!!
"-- not to mention, part D, one of the biggest and least efficient expansions of Medicare in recent history, was passed by a Republican Congress/President using budget reconciliation.
They are not interested in shrinking government to a mythical "efficient size", despite what activists like Grover Norquist may say, they want only the parts that empower them.
How else would they condone an OLC who almost authorized the creation of a Presidency above Constitutional authority?It's just yet another example of conservatism claiming to know what's best for public policy and governance, and demonstrating that they are completely incompetent and/or ignorant that human nature will always thwart their best-intended theories.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251002</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31256012</id>
	<title>Re:This is the government, not an engineering firm</title>
	<author>azrider</author>
	<datestamp>1266951420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I totally disagree: the NHTSA shouldn't hire engineers. NHTSA should not do the job of Toyota's engineers and testers; they were created to set policy and propose safety laws. The NHTSA should hire economists, policy makers, and maybe some scientists. But the job of ensuring the nuts and bolts of a car are safe should fall on the car-maker, with strict repercussions if they fail.</p></div></blockquote><p>
No, you do not need people to <b>test</b> all of the various vehicles, but you <b>do</b> need <em>knowledgeable</em> people to <b>design the test protocols</b>.</p><p>
As long as you allow manufacturers to tell you what tests they are going to run, as opposed to <em>what tests will be <b>acceptable</b> </em>, you have the corporate equivalent of the fox guarding the henhouse.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I totally disagree : the NHTSA should n't hire engineers .
NHTSA should not do the job of Toyota 's engineers and testers ; they were created to set policy and propose safety laws .
The NHTSA should hire economists , policy makers , and maybe some scientists .
But the job of ensuring the nuts and bolts of a car are safe should fall on the car-maker , with strict repercussions if they fail .
No , you do not need people to test all of the various vehicles , but you do need knowledgeable people to design the test protocols .
As long as you allow manufacturers to tell you what tests they are going to run , as opposed to what tests will be acceptable , you have the corporate equivalent of the fox guarding the henhouse .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I totally disagree: the NHTSA shouldn't hire engineers.
NHTSA should not do the job of Toyota's engineers and testers; they were created to set policy and propose safety laws.
The NHTSA should hire economists, policy makers, and maybe some scientists.
But the job of ensuring the nuts and bolts of a car are safe should fall on the car-maker, with strict repercussions if they fail.
No, you do not need people to test all of the various vehicles, but you do need knowledgeable people to design the test protocols.
As long as you allow manufacturers to tell you what tests they are going to run, as opposed to what tests will be acceptable , you have the corporate equivalent of the fox guarding the henhouse.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251170</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251624</id>
	<title>Re:100 million lines? Sure, we will get right on i</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266924060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Your argument makes no sense.</p><p>Look at Prof. Fenynmann's diagnosis of the first shuttle disaster.  One guy cut across hundreds of employees and thousands and thousands of pages of engineering documents.  He found the needle in the haystack with a glass of ice water.</p><p>As a software person you must be aware that even a single person working alone can find a major exploitable flaw in a complex system.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Your argument makes no sense.Look at Prof. Fenynmann 's diagnosis of the first shuttle disaster .
One guy cut across hundreds of employees and thousands and thousands of pages of engineering documents .
He found the needle in the haystack with a glass of ice water.As a software person you must be aware that even a single person working alone can find a major exploitable flaw in a complex system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Your argument makes no sense.Look at Prof. Fenynmann's diagnosis of the first shuttle disaster.
One guy cut across hundreds of employees and thousands and thousands of pages of engineering documents.
He found the needle in the haystack with a glass of ice water.As a software person you must be aware that even a single person working alone can find a major exploitable flaw in a complex system.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250674</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251144</id>
	<title>Re:100 million lines of code?</title>
	<author>Logical Zebra</author>
	<datestamp>1266922380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Maybe that 100 million figure includes things such as multimedia, navigation, etc.  Even then, it seems large to me.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe that 100 million figure includes things such as multimedia , navigation , etc .
Even then , it seems large to me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe that 100 million figure includes things such as multimedia, navigation, etc.
Even then, it seems large to me.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250802</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251418</id>
	<title>Re:100 million lines? Sure, we will get right on i</title>
	<author>russotto</author>
	<datestamp>1266923280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Finally, 100 million lines of code sounds like an awful lot of code for a throttle and/or braking system. I have a feeling that number is bloated to include things like when to pop on the low fuel light or seatbelt warning sounds.</p></div></blockquote><p>If the number isn't wholly fictional, I'd guess the largest single component is the navigation system.  (Which hopefully does NOT have input into the throttle... but nowadays, who knows?)</p><p>Unfortunately, all the actual engine control stuff DOES work together.  It's not simply an doing an electronic simulation of a throttle cable.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Finally , 100 million lines of code sounds like an awful lot of code for a throttle and/or braking system .
I have a feeling that number is bloated to include things like when to pop on the low fuel light or seatbelt warning sounds.If the number is n't wholly fictional , I 'd guess the largest single component is the navigation system .
( Which hopefully does NOT have input into the throttle... but nowadays , who knows ?
) Unfortunately , all the actual engine control stuff DOES work together .
It 's not simply an doing an electronic simulation of a throttle cable .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Finally, 100 million lines of code sounds like an awful lot of code for a throttle and/or braking system.
I have a feeling that number is bloated to include things like when to pop on the low fuel light or seatbelt warning sounds.If the number isn't wholly fictional, I'd guess the largest single component is the navigation system.
(Which hopefully does NOT have input into the throttle... but nowadays, who knows?
)Unfortunately, all the actual engine control stuff DOES work together.
It's not simply an doing an electronic simulation of a throttle cable.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250854</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31252442</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>DeadCatX2</author>
	<datestamp>1266927840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just because neither provides a solution to big business does not mean we should just go for a small government that would just be pushed to the side.  At least big business' partner has to pretend that they're going to hold them accountable every other year or three.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just because neither provides a solution to big business does not mean we should just go for a small government that would just be pushed to the side .
At least big business ' partner has to pretend that they 're going to hold them accountable every other year or three .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just because neither provides a solution to big business does not mean we should just go for a small government that would just be pushed to the side.
At least big business' partner has to pretend that they're going to hold them accountable every other year or three.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251116</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250990</id>
	<title>Re:Computer Engineers needed</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266921900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>yeah, great job EDS did for GM embedded.....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>yeah , great job EDS did for GM embedded.... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>yeah, great job EDS did for GM embedded.....</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250588</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251188</id>
	<title>Re:100 million lines of code?</title>
	<author>vlm</author>
	<datestamp>1266922500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>But still, 100 MILLION lines of code? Does anyone have any input on whether or not this is accurate? Or do automotive software engineers like to comment their code more than anyone else?</p></div><p>You're thinking of "the car" as the engine computer, transmission comp, and the ABS comp.</p><p>They're journalists, and they're counting the rear set DVD player, the GPS display, the onboard cellphone/big brother tracking device that unlocks the doors...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>But still , 100 MILLION lines of code ?
Does anyone have any input on whether or not this is accurate ?
Or do automotive software engineers like to comment their code more than anyone else ? You 're thinking of " the car " as the engine computer , transmission comp , and the ABS comp.They 're journalists , and they 're counting the rear set DVD player , the GPS display , the onboard cellphone/big brother tracking device that unlocks the doors.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But still, 100 MILLION lines of code?
Does anyone have any input on whether or not this is accurate?
Or do automotive software engineers like to comment their code more than anyone else?You're thinking of "the car" as the engine computer, transmission comp, and the ABS comp.They're journalists, and they're counting the rear set DVD player, the GPS display, the onboard cellphone/big brother tracking device that unlocks the doors...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250802</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250682</id>
	<title>Re:Computer Engineers needed</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266920880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Dude, shut up.  The one after you will call out for embedded systems engineer.  The one after that will call out for ECM/TCM engineer.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Dude , shut up .
The one after you will call out for embedded systems engineer .
The one after that will call out for ECM/TCM engineer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Dude, shut up.
The one after you will call out for embedded systems engineer.
The one after that will call out for ECM/TCM engineer.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250588</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31254216</id>
	<title>More needed than just source code review</title>
	<author>MillenneumMan</author>
	<datestamp>1266936780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I used to write software for the US Dept of Defense, and our office had a fairly good sized team that all day every day manually compared expected results to actual results when compiling our programs.  I was amazed at how frequently that team uncovered errors. Most of the time they found subtle errors in how the compiler program performed its translations, but it was not unusual for them to find logic errors embedded in the computer chips themselves. All of these things had to be corrected, even it if meant re-engineering a computer chip, before our software could be deployed, and for obvious reasons: you cannot allow a weapon to fire due to a computer error.

<p>This drive-by-wire stuff is very serious. I seriously doubt that any car manufacturer validates their computer software and hardware as rigorously as the Dept of Defense; in fact they probably don't do compiler or chip logic validation at all. I bet the aviation industry could give them guidance in this arena.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I used to write software for the US Dept of Defense , and our office had a fairly good sized team that all day every day manually compared expected results to actual results when compiling our programs .
I was amazed at how frequently that team uncovered errors .
Most of the time they found subtle errors in how the compiler program performed its translations , but it was not unusual for them to find logic errors embedded in the computer chips themselves .
All of these things had to be corrected , even it if meant re-engineering a computer chip , before our software could be deployed , and for obvious reasons : you can not allow a weapon to fire due to a computer error .
This drive-by-wire stuff is very serious .
I seriously doubt that any car manufacturer validates their computer software and hardware as rigorously as the Dept of Defense ; in fact they probably do n't do compiler or chip logic validation at all .
I bet the aviation industry could give them guidance in this arena .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I used to write software for the US Dept of Defense, and our office had a fairly good sized team that all day every day manually compared expected results to actual results when compiling our programs.
I was amazed at how frequently that team uncovered errors.
Most of the time they found subtle errors in how the compiler program performed its translations, but it was not unusual for them to find logic errors embedded in the computer chips themselves.
All of these things had to be corrected, even it if meant re-engineering a computer chip, before our software could be deployed, and for obvious reasons: you cannot allow a weapon to fire due to a computer error.
This drive-by-wire stuff is very serious.
I seriously doubt that any car manufacturer validates their computer software and hardware as rigorously as the Dept of Defense; in fact they probably don't do compiler or chip logic validation at all.
I bet the aviation industry could give them guidance in this arena.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251332</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266922920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We just need engineers visible and we can call it "Engineering Theater"<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... har har!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We just need engineers visible and we can call it " Engineering Theater " ... har har !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We just need engineers visible and we can call it "Engineering Theater" ... har har!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250746</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31255702</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266948420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Today, we have no one in our government who is able to determine how much we should be collecting and therefore have to rely upon the oil and gas companies to tell use how much they are supposed to remit. Our own government auditor believes we have been bilked out of billions yet somehow we have a leaner and, ahem, more efficient government."</p><p>Ah yes, but if you look into how many government employees you have right now handing out welfare, subsidies, and all manner of transfer payments, and then start to count up how many greedy, sorry, "deserving" little hands are reaching out for those checks, you will find that that number has grown enormously over those same 35 years.</p><p>The solution is to hire a few more of your educated class to keep track of the oil companies, and tell the "deserving" drones that the gravy train has come to an end and they had better find some kind of work.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Today , we have no one in our government who is able to determine how much we should be collecting and therefore have to rely upon the oil and gas companies to tell use how much they are supposed to remit .
Our own government auditor believes we have been bilked out of billions yet somehow we have a leaner and , ahem , more efficient government .
" Ah yes , but if you look into how many government employees you have right now handing out welfare , subsidies , and all manner of transfer payments , and then start to count up how many greedy , sorry , " deserving " little hands are reaching out for those checks , you will find that that number has grown enormously over those same 35 years.The solution is to hire a few more of your educated class to keep track of the oil companies , and tell the " deserving " drones that the gravy train has come to an end and they had better find some kind of work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Today, we have no one in our government who is able to determine how much we should be collecting and therefore have to rely upon the oil and gas companies to tell use how much they are supposed to remit.
Our own government auditor believes we have been bilked out of billions yet somehow we have a leaner and, ahem, more efficient government.
"Ah yes, but if you look into how many government employees you have right now handing out welfare, subsidies, and all manner of transfer payments, and then start to count up how many greedy, sorry, "deserving" little hands are reaching out for those checks, you will find that that number has grown enormously over those same 35 years.The solution is to hire a few more of your educated class to keep track of the oil companies, and tell the "deserving" drones that the gravy train has come to an end and they had better find some kind of work.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250754</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31252576</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>Blakey Rat</author>
	<datestamp>1266928380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You never realized that you can learn a lot from a dummy?</p><p>(Actually, I'm not sure if the NHTSA put on those PSAs or someone else did. Still, until recently they had a daily presence on TV.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You never realized that you can learn a lot from a dummy ?
( Actually , I 'm not sure if the NHTSA put on those PSAs or someone else did .
Still , until recently they had a daily presence on TV .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You never realized that you can learn a lot from a dummy?
(Actually, I'm not sure if the NHTSA put on those PSAs or someone else did.
Still, until recently they had a daily presence on TV.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250698</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251116</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>Chris Mattern</author>
	<datestamp>1266922260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Just remember that the only thing to stand up to a big business nowadays is big government</p></div></blockquote><p>I'm sorry, but if you think the antidote to big business is big government, you're delusional.  Big government is big business's *partner*.  It's always been that way, and it'll always be that way.  Handing government more power means that there will be plenty of regulations.  You *do* know that a regulation-heavy environment favors big business, not small business, right?  Small business can't afford the compliance department you need.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Just remember that the only thing to stand up to a big business nowadays is big governmentI 'm sorry , but if you think the antidote to big business is big government , you 're delusional .
Big government is big business 's * partner * .
It 's always been that way , and it 'll always be that way .
Handing government more power means that there will be plenty of regulations .
You * do * know that a regulation-heavy environment favors big business , not small business , right ?
Small business ca n't afford the compliance department you need .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just remember that the only thing to stand up to a big business nowadays is big governmentI'm sorry, but if you think the antidote to big business is big government, you're delusional.
Big government is big business's *partner*.
It's always been that way, and it'll always be that way.
Handing government more power means that there will be plenty of regulations.
You *do* know that a regulation-heavy environment favors big business, not small business, right?
Small business can't afford the compliance department you need.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250754</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31253528</id>
	<title>Re:advice for anyone with a runaway gas pedal</title>
	<author>Shompol</author>
	<datestamp>1266932880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I actually seen an interview with an expert who recommends shifting to neutral and demonstrated it in action. He also noted that turning off ignition is bad because it will kill power steering, and demonstrated that pressing breaks does little as the engine overpowers them.<br>
I only hope that shift is not controlled by the same software *gulp*</htmltext>
<tokenext>I actually seen an interview with an expert who recommends shifting to neutral and demonstrated it in action .
He also noted that turning off ignition is bad because it will kill power steering , and demonstrated that pressing breaks does little as the engine overpowers them .
I only hope that shift is not controlled by the same software * gulp *</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I actually seen an interview with an expert who recommends shifting to neutral and demonstrated it in action.
He also noted that turning off ignition is bad because it will kill power steering, and demonstrated that pressing breaks does little as the engine overpowers them.
I only hope that shift is not controlled by the same software *gulp*</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251518</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31253778</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>theycallmeB</author>
	<datestamp>1266934140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>And in an environment with little or no regulation, small business can't afford the legal department they need and taxpayers won't be able to afford to clean up the messes that WILL get left behind.</htmltext>
<tokenext>And in an environment with little or no regulation , small business ca n't afford the legal department they need and taxpayers wo n't be able to afford to clean up the messes that WILL get left behind .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And in an environment with little or no regulation, small business can't afford the legal department they need and taxpayers won't be able to afford to clean up the messes that WILL get left behind.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251116</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251674</id>
	<title>call the FAA or NASA and ask for help</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266924240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They have been dealing with avionics and space software certification for decades.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They have been dealing with avionics and space software certification for decades .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They have been dealing with avionics and space software certification for decades.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251260</id>
	<title>Re:100 million lines? Sure, we will get right on i</title>
	<author>cxx</author>
	<datestamp>1266922740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Exactly -- that would be worthless.  Rather, they need an advisory panel that can examine the QA practices and such.</p><p>I'm used to examining million LOC codebases -- give me or anyone else here on<nobr> <wbr></nobr>./ a few days to look at their procedures, bug database, unit tests, etc., and we'll be able to tell whether this sort of problem could occur again and what was done to solve it.  But I wouldn't/couldn't do the testing myself, ever.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Exactly -- that would be worthless .
Rather , they need an advisory panel that can examine the QA practices and such.I 'm used to examining million LOC codebases -- give me or anyone else here on ./ a few days to look at their procedures , bug database , unit tests , etc. , and we 'll be able to tell whether this sort of problem could occur again and what was done to solve it .
But I would n't/could n't do the testing myself , ever .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Exactly -- that would be worthless.
Rather, they need an advisory panel that can examine the QA practices and such.I'm used to examining million LOC codebases -- give me or anyone else here on ./ a few days to look at their procedures, bug database, unit tests, etc., and we'll be able to tell whether this sort of problem could occur again and what was done to solve it.
But I wouldn't/couldn't do the testing myself, ever.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250674</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31288056</id>
	<title>Re:100 million lines? Sure, we will get right on i</title>
	<author>BitZtream</author>
	<datestamp>1267211220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>First thing they'd do was call bullshit on 100 million lines of code.  I highly doubt any claim that a car has twice as much code in it as Windows Vista.  Hell, I'd bet my life that there is no production car on the road with more than 5 million lines of assembly code (not resources like text and images that might be in a rom dump, actual executable code).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>First thing they 'd do was call bullshit on 100 million lines of code .
I highly doubt any claim that a car has twice as much code in it as Windows Vista .
Hell , I 'd bet my life that there is no production car on the road with more than 5 million lines of assembly code ( not resources like text and images that might be in a rom dump , actual executable code ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First thing they'd do was call bullshit on 100 million lines of code.
I highly doubt any claim that a car has twice as much code in it as Windows Vista.
Hell, I'd bet my life that there is no production car on the road with more than 5 million lines of assembly code (not resources like text and images that might be in a rom dump, actual executable code).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250674</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31319004</id>
	<title>Re:advice for anyone with a runaway gas pedal</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267469640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I tested this on the Prius a month ago and you can drop into neutral at speed, which is nice to know..  Seems odd that people think this is funny!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I tested this on the Prius a month ago and you can drop into neutral at speed , which is nice to know.. Seems odd that people think this is funny !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I tested this on the Prius a month ago and you can drop into neutral at speed, which is nice to know..  Seems odd that people think this is funny!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251518</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250732</id>
	<title>Re:Computer Engineers needed</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266921060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Speaking as someone with a CMPE degree, employers see me as under-qualified to do EE work and over qualified to do programming work. What they need is either EEs with heavy embedded programming experience or software engineers with (guess what) embedded programming experience. The title isn't that important.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Speaking as someone with a CMPE degree , employers see me as under-qualified to do EE work and over qualified to do programming work .
What they need is either EEs with heavy embedded programming experience or software engineers with ( guess what ) embedded programming experience .
The title is n't that important .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Speaking as someone with a CMPE degree, employers see me as under-qualified to do EE work and over qualified to do programming work.
What they need is either EEs with heavy embedded programming experience or software engineers with (guess what) embedded programming experience.
The title isn't that important.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250588</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251270</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>rainmayun</author>
	<datestamp>1266922740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>The government's job in this case is not to duplicate the testing done by Toyota engineers, but rather to provide oversight and verify that Toyota's engineers ARE doing it, to a degree of completeness and correctness that satisfies statutes and regulations.  Clearly that task requires substantial technical expertise, but it's not the same task.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The government 's job in this case is not to duplicate the testing done by Toyota engineers , but rather to provide oversight and verify that Toyota 's engineers ARE doing it , to a degree of completeness and correctness that satisfies statutes and regulations .
Clearly that task requires substantial technical expertise , but it 's not the same task .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The government's job in this case is not to duplicate the testing done by Toyota engineers, but rather to provide oversight and verify that Toyota's engineers ARE doing it, to a degree of completeness and correctness that satisfies statutes and regulations.
Clearly that task requires substantial technical expertise, but it's not the same task.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250746</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251772</id>
	<title>Don't reinvent the wheel</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266924600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The NHTSA does not need to evolve a new set of standards out there to address part of this problem. Just require that all automobiles meet the FCC Part 15, Class B standards for electromagnetic susceptibility. It is stupid that this is not done already.</p><p>There are plenty of critical pieces of equipment that cannot turn up their noses and fail because of electromagnetic interference. Medical equipment is tested to at least this standard every day. There are hundreds of testing laboratories throughout the world who manufacture products that have to meet these specifications. There are thousands of engineers who already do this type of testing.</p><p>Now lines of code and software is a different animal. In a hundred million lines of code there are certainly bugs and flaws.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The NHTSA does not need to evolve a new set of standards out there to address part of this problem .
Just require that all automobiles meet the FCC Part 15 , Class B standards for electromagnetic susceptibility .
It is stupid that this is not done already.There are plenty of critical pieces of equipment that can not turn up their noses and fail because of electromagnetic interference .
Medical equipment is tested to at least this standard every day .
There are hundreds of testing laboratories throughout the world who manufacture products that have to meet these specifications .
There are thousands of engineers who already do this type of testing.Now lines of code and software is a different animal .
In a hundred million lines of code there are certainly bugs and flaws .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The NHTSA does not need to evolve a new set of standards out there to address part of this problem.
Just require that all automobiles meet the FCC Part 15, Class B standards for electromagnetic susceptibility.
It is stupid that this is not done already.There are plenty of critical pieces of equipment that cannot turn up their noses and fail because of electromagnetic interference.
Medical equipment is tested to at least this standard every day.
There are hundreds of testing laboratories throughout the world who manufacture products that have to meet these specifications.
There are thousands of engineers who already do this type of testing.Now lines of code and software is a different animal.
In a hundred million lines of code there are certainly bugs and flaws.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31262104</id>
	<title>Just the tip of the iceberg for auto intelligence</title>
	<author>Paul Fernhout</author>
	<datestamp>1265137800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Self-driving cars will be another aspect of car safety soon. As I wrote here:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; <a href="http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/msg/a7bb1aa3d05ec7c6" title="google.com">http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/msg/a7bb1aa3d05ec7c6</a> [google.com]<br>referencing my essay here from ten years ago. The relevant excerpt:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; "On Funding Digital Public Works"<br><a href="http://www.pdfernhout.net/on-funding-digital-public-works.html" title="pdfernhout.net">http://www.pdfernhout.net/on-funding-digital-public-works.html</a> [pdfernhout.net]<br>"""<br>Consider again the self-driving cars mentioned earlier which now cruise some<br>streets in small numbers. The software "intelligence" doing the driving was<br>primarily developed by public money given to universities, which generally<br>own the copyrights and patents as the contractors. Obviously there are<br>related scientific publications, but in practice these fail to do justice to<br>the complexity of such systems. The truest physical representation of the<br>knowledge learned by such work is the codebase plus email discussions of it<br>(plus what developers carry in their heads).<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; We are about to see the emergence of companies licensing that publicly<br>funded software and selling modified versions of such software as<br>proprietary products. There will eventually be hundreds or thousands of paid<br>automotive software engineers working on such software no matter how it is<br>funded, because there will be great value in having such self-driving<br>vehicles given the result of America's horrendous urban planning policies<br>leaving the car as generally the most efficient means of transport in the<br>suburb. The question is, will the results of the work be open for inspection<br>and contribution by the public? Essentially, will those engineers and their<br>employers be "owners" of the software, or will they instead be "stewards" of<br>a larger free and open community development process?<br>"""</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Self-driving cars will be another aspect of car safety soon .
As I wrote here :     http : //groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/msg/a7bb1aa3d05ec7c6 [ google.com ] referencing my essay here from ten years ago .
The relevant excerpt :       " On Funding Digital Public Works " http : //www.pdfernhout.net/on-funding-digital-public-works.html [ pdfernhout.net ] " " " Consider again the self-driving cars mentioned earlier which now cruise somestreets in small numbers .
The software " intelligence " doing the driving wasprimarily developed by public money given to universities , which generallyown the copyrights and patents as the contractors .
Obviously there arerelated scientific publications , but in practice these fail to do justice tothe complexity of such systems .
The truest physical representation of theknowledge learned by such work is the codebase plus email discussions of it ( plus what developers carry in their heads ) .
      We are about to see the emergence of companies licensing that publiclyfunded software and selling modified versions of such software asproprietary products .
There will eventually be hundreds or thousands of paidautomotive software engineers working on such software no matter how it isfunded , because there will be great value in having such self-drivingvehicles given the result of America 's horrendous urban planning policiesleaving the car as generally the most efficient means of transport in thesuburb .
The question is , will the results of the work be open for inspectionand contribution by the public ?
Essentially , will those engineers and theiremployers be " owners " of the software , or will they instead be " stewards " ofa larger free and open community development process ?
" " "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Self-driving cars will be another aspect of car safety soon.
As I wrote here:
    http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/msg/a7bb1aa3d05ec7c6 [google.com]referencing my essay here from ten years ago.
The relevant excerpt:
      "On Funding Digital Public Works"http://www.pdfernhout.net/on-funding-digital-public-works.html [pdfernhout.net]"""Consider again the self-driving cars mentioned earlier which now cruise somestreets in small numbers.
The software "intelligence" doing the driving wasprimarily developed by public money given to universities, which generallyown the copyrights and patents as the contractors.
Obviously there arerelated scientific publications, but in practice these fail to do justice tothe complexity of such systems.
The truest physical representation of theknowledge learned by such work is the codebase plus email discussions of it(plus what developers carry in their heads).
      We are about to see the emergence of companies licensing that publiclyfunded software and selling modified versions of such software asproprietary products.
There will eventually be hundreds or thousands of paidautomotive software engineers working on such software no matter how it isfunded, because there will be great value in having such self-drivingvehicles given the result of America's horrendous urban planning policiesleaving the car as generally the most efficient means of transport in thesuburb.
The question is, will the results of the work be open for inspectionand contribution by the public?
Essentially, will those engineers and theiremployers be "owners" of the software, or will they instead be "stewards" ofa larger free and open community development process?
"""</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251398</id>
	<title>Re:100 million lines of code?</title>
	<author>Ellis D. Tripp</author>
	<datestamp>1266923220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I wonder if the 100 MLOC figure refers to systems like Ford/Microsoft "Sync" (Runs a version of Windows CE) , GPS/navigator/trip computer/DVD player/Bluetooth/ whatever..</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I wonder if the 100 MLOC figure refers to systems like Ford/Microsoft " Sync " ( Runs a version of Windows CE ) , GPS/navigator/trip computer/DVD player/Bluetooth/ whatever. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I wonder if the 100 MLOC figure refers to systems like Ford/Microsoft "Sync" (Runs a version of Windows CE) , GPS/navigator/trip computer/DVD player/Bluetooth/ whatever..</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250802</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31252166</id>
	<title>Borrow some from the FDA</title>
	<author>AmericanGladiator</author>
	<datestamp>1266926460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Surely they have some with all the safety-critical code (e.g. from pacemakers) that must pass through their review process.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Surely they have some with all the safety-critical code ( e.g .
from pacemakers ) that must pass through their review process .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Surely they have some with all the safety-critical code (e.g.
from pacemakers) that must pass through their review process.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250996</id>
	<title>So What?</title>
	<author>PingPongBoy</author>
	<datestamp>1266921900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Safety related functionality should have a redundant overriding mechanism that isn't subject to the vagaries of software failure. For example, if the engine computer suddenly wants to run an explode subroutine, the fuel valve should limit the outcome to chitty chitty bang bang.</p><p>Then you don't have to check every line of code, you just have to check the overrides.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Safety related functionality should have a redundant overriding mechanism that is n't subject to the vagaries of software failure .
For example , if the engine computer suddenly wants to run an explode subroutine , the fuel valve should limit the outcome to chitty chitty bang bang.Then you do n't have to check every line of code , you just have to check the overrides .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Safety related functionality should have a redundant overriding mechanism that isn't subject to the vagaries of software failure.
For example, if the engine computer suddenly wants to run an explode subroutine, the fuel valve should limit the outcome to chitty chitty bang bang.Then you don't have to check every line of code, you just have to check the overrides.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31252420</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>tonywong</author>
	<datestamp>1266927720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The problem with the idea of smaller government is that the elected officials start believing that getting elected is all there is to doing their job as government, ie. there is no need for expertise within that field. Look at FEMA and New Orleans.<br><br>There is a current level of snobbery within elected officials looking at the administrators of government, aka bureaucracy. The problem with the bureaucracy is that it is opaque to all the outsiders (and maybe the insiders as well), so all the elected officials start by downsizing and firing the administrators. The elected officials certainly aren't going to fire themselves.<br><br>Of course, the elected officials figured out that they don't want to take the fall for decreased services so they simply cut the budgets of the departments and make the administrators take the fall for it. This is also known as "starving the beast."<br><br>Too bad that the only people who are competent at surviving such purges are the self-interested (ie. do nothing) staff. The competent hard-working people were the ones too busy to play office politics and are the ones who get laid off. The lucky competents get burdened with all the remaining work and either go postal or burn out. There is a minimum size to an effective bureaucracy and while the theory that everyone can work 'smarter' is great in principle, the reality is that you need a decent amount of smart, hard-working people to get something technical/difficult done.<br><br>FWIW, I know engineers from competing car companies who have analyzed Toyota's cars. They clinic/disassemble them frequently enough to see some of the shenanigans that Toyota has pulled. Nothing was avoided because they all have a code of silence amongst them. Just because you know Toyota is pulling some shit doesn't mean you go running to the public about it. Because Toyota will do the same to you. Government has nothing to do with it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem with the idea of smaller government is that the elected officials start believing that getting elected is all there is to doing their job as government , ie .
there is no need for expertise within that field .
Look at FEMA and New Orleans.There is a current level of snobbery within elected officials looking at the administrators of government , aka bureaucracy .
The problem with the bureaucracy is that it is opaque to all the outsiders ( and maybe the insiders as well ) , so all the elected officials start by downsizing and firing the administrators .
The elected officials certainly are n't going to fire themselves.Of course , the elected officials figured out that they do n't want to take the fall for decreased services so they simply cut the budgets of the departments and make the administrators take the fall for it .
This is also known as " starving the beast .
" Too bad that the only people who are competent at surviving such purges are the self-interested ( ie .
do nothing ) staff .
The competent hard-working people were the ones too busy to play office politics and are the ones who get laid off .
The lucky competents get burdened with all the remaining work and either go postal or burn out .
There is a minimum size to an effective bureaucracy and while the theory that everyone can work 'smarter ' is great in principle , the reality is that you need a decent amount of smart , hard-working people to get something technical/difficult done.FWIW , I know engineers from competing car companies who have analyzed Toyota 's cars .
They clinic/disassemble them frequently enough to see some of the shenanigans that Toyota has pulled .
Nothing was avoided because they all have a code of silence amongst them .
Just because you know Toyota is pulling some shit does n't mean you go running to the public about it .
Because Toyota will do the same to you .
Government has nothing to do with it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem with the idea of smaller government is that the elected officials start believing that getting elected is all there is to doing their job as government, ie.
there is no need for expertise within that field.
Look at FEMA and New Orleans.There is a current level of snobbery within elected officials looking at the administrators of government, aka bureaucracy.
The problem with the bureaucracy is that it is opaque to all the outsiders (and maybe the insiders as well), so all the elected officials start by downsizing and firing the administrators.
The elected officials certainly aren't going to fire themselves.Of course, the elected officials figured out that they don't want to take the fall for decreased services so they simply cut the budgets of the departments and make the administrators take the fall for it.
This is also known as "starving the beast.
"Too bad that the only people who are competent at surviving such purges are the self-interested (ie.
do nothing) staff.
The competent hard-working people were the ones too busy to play office politics and are the ones who get laid off.
The lucky competents get burdened with all the remaining work and either go postal or burn out.
There is a minimum size to an effective bureaucracy and while the theory that everyone can work 'smarter' is great in principle, the reality is that you need a decent amount of smart, hard-working people to get something technical/difficult done.FWIW, I know engineers from competing car companies who have analyzed Toyota's cars.
They clinic/disassemble them frequently enough to see some of the shenanigans that Toyota has pulled.
Nothing was avoided because they all have a code of silence amongst them.
Just because you know Toyota is pulling some shit doesn't mean you go running to the public about it.
Because Toyota will do the same to you.
Government has nothing to do with it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251650</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31254600</id>
	<title>Not an appropriate turn of phrase</title>
	<author>skeptictank</author>
	<datestamp>1266939600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The U.S. government is pursuing the electronics question, Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood told the panel. "We're going to go into the weeds on that"
<p>
That's not the phrase you want to hear when talking about real-time safety critical software.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The U.S. government is pursuing the electronics question , Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood told the panel .
" We 're going to go into the weeds on that " That 's not the phrase you want to hear when talking about real-time safety critical software .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The U.S. government is pursuing the electronics question, Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood told the panel.
"We're going to go into the weeds on that"

That's not the phrase you want to hear when talking about real-time safety critical software.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251906</id>
	<title>Re:100 million lines???</title>
	<author>eddy</author>
	<datestamp>1266925140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Glad I'm not the only one calling bullshit on this claim. Even INCLUDING any navigation system I think it's way off, but why <em>would</em> you include something which can't (realistically) have any control over the car?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Glad I 'm not the only one calling bullshit on this claim .
Even INCLUDING any navigation system I think it 's way off , but why would you include something which ca n't ( realistically ) have any control over the car ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Glad I'm not the only one calling bullshit on this claim.
Even INCLUDING any navigation system I think it's way off, but why would you include something which can't (realistically) have any control over the car?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251038</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31252932</id>
	<title>Re:Welp</title>
	<author>EXrider</author>
	<datestamp>1266930000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Me too, except my car, which also had a sudden acceleration problem, never got recalled. '85 Caprice Classics were famous for their cruise control systems engaging spontaneously, and at an arbitrarily high speed level, meaning that one day when I was driving around the campus loop, my car suddenly accelerated. I sped through a 4-way stop, nearly hit a few pedestrians, brakes didn't respond (because the accelerator was down) and I had a very panicked few seconds of driving until I just turned the car off and stomped both feet on the now non-power braking brakes. Fortunately I didn't hit anyone or even get a ticket, but the car company never acknowledged it as a problem, though you'll find accounts of similar stories all over the internet.</p></div></blockquote><p>

Ahh, the infamous GM turn-signal/cruise control/wiper/kitchen sink stalk.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Me too , except my car , which also had a sudden acceleration problem , never got recalled .
'85 Caprice Classics were famous for their cruise control systems engaging spontaneously , and at an arbitrarily high speed level , meaning that one day when I was driving around the campus loop , my car suddenly accelerated .
I sped through a 4-way stop , nearly hit a few pedestrians , brakes did n't respond ( because the accelerator was down ) and I had a very panicked few seconds of driving until I just turned the car off and stomped both feet on the now non-power braking brakes .
Fortunately I did n't hit anyone or even get a ticket , but the car company never acknowledged it as a problem , though you 'll find accounts of similar stories all over the internet .
Ahh , the infamous GM turn-signal/cruise control/wiper/kitchen sink stalk .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Me too, except my car, which also had a sudden acceleration problem, never got recalled.
'85 Caprice Classics were famous for their cruise control systems engaging spontaneously, and at an arbitrarily high speed level, meaning that one day when I was driving around the campus loop, my car suddenly accelerated.
I sped through a 4-way stop, nearly hit a few pedestrians, brakes didn't respond (because the accelerator was down) and I had a very panicked few seconds of driving until I just turned the car off and stomped both feet on the now non-power braking brakes.
Fortunately I didn't hit anyone or even get a ticket, but the car company never acknowledged it as a problem, though you'll find accounts of similar stories all over the internet.
Ahh, the infamous GM turn-signal/cruise control/wiper/kitchen sink stalk.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251450</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251748</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>pilgrim23</author>
	<datestamp>1266924480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This just in:FDIC auditors recently seen counting on fingers, FDA (Like most everyone else) can't even pronounce the names of the drugs they admin, FCC  Commissioner was heard: "Right, whaza Radio?", and FEMA now there is a disaster waiting to happen...Why should the NHSTA be up to date, competent, and capable of being in charge of what their mission statement says? That would be...well...Un-American</htmltext>
<tokenext>This just in : FDIC auditors recently seen counting on fingers , FDA ( Like most everyone else ) ca n't even pronounce the names of the drugs they admin , FCC Commissioner was heard : " Right , whaza Radio ?
" , and FEMA now there is a disaster waiting to happen...Why should the NHSTA be up to date , competent , and capable of being in charge of what their mission statement says ?
That would be...well...Un-American</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This just in:FDIC auditors recently seen counting on fingers, FDA (Like most everyone else) can't even pronounce the names of the drugs they admin, FCC  Commissioner was heard: "Right, whaza Radio?
", and FEMA now there is a disaster waiting to happen...Why should the NHSTA be up to date, competent, and capable of being in charge of what their mission statement says?
That would be...well...Un-American</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250576</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250922</id>
	<title>Re:How many microprocessors was that again?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266921660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Certainly not a direct connection but the automobile industry does use CAN (Controller Area Network) to link many systems in the car, it is a shared bus to so say that a bug in one system couldn't effect another may not be entirely accurate.</p><p>One would hope mission critical system have separate buses but with a safety administration with no ability to check, who knows?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Certainly not a direct connection but the automobile industry does use CAN ( Controller Area Network ) to link many systems in the car , it is a shared bus to so say that a bug in one system could n't effect another may not be entirely accurate.One would hope mission critical system have separate buses but with a safety administration with no ability to check , who knows ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Certainly not a direct connection but the automobile industry does use CAN (Controller Area Network) to link many systems in the car, it is a shared bus to so say that a bug in one system couldn't effect another may not be entirely accurate.One would hope mission critical system have separate buses but with a safety administration with no ability to check, who knows?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250718</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251256</id>
	<title>Re:100 million lines? Sure, we will get right on i</title>
	<author>mswhippingboy</author>
	<datestamp>1266922740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>100 Million??? Really? What the hell is it written in, Intel 4004 assembler code?</htmltext>
<tokenext>100 Million ? ? ?
Really ? What the hell is it written in , Intel 4004 assembler code ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>100 Million???
Really? What the hell is it written in, Intel 4004 assembler code?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250674</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251518</id>
	<title>advice for anyone with a runaway gas pedal</title>
	<author>Kargan</author>
	<datestamp>1266923700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Shift into neutral.  I haven't seen this anywhere as part of the many Toyota-related discussions around the world, so figured I'd mention it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Shift into neutral .
I have n't seen this anywhere as part of the many Toyota-related discussions around the world , so figured I 'd mention it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Shift into neutral.
I haven't seen this anywhere as part of the many Toyota-related discussions around the world, so figured I'd mention it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250956</id>
	<title>Re:Computer Engineers needed</title>
	<author>WrongSizeGlass</author>
	<datestamp>1266921780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Based on a recent news article I believe Woz would be able to help them out with at least one of the Toyota problems.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Based on a recent news article I believe Woz would be able to help them out with at least one of the Toyota problems .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Based on a recent news article I believe Woz would be able to help them out with at least one of the Toyota problems.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250588</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31254974</id>
	<title>Actually, it IS egineering</title>
	<author>Required Snark</author>
	<datestamp>1266942180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Another Slashdot Pundit gets it wrong. When you have safety critical systems,  there has to be <em>somebody</em> who can evaluate the system for safety. Preferably multiple somebodies.
<p>
The way it is supposed to work is that technically responsible people write requirements that when followed correctly lead to acceptable results. This is what ISO-9001 is all about. It does not mandate "you must do procedure X"; it mandates that you must have a system that defines what processes you employ, and how you verify that they have been followed. In theory, your process could be throwing darts at paper target, and by retaining the target as an "artifact" you can show you followed your process.  In the real world there are "best practices", and a lot of meetings and reviews and  "artifacts".
</p><p>
The organizational issue is having a group of people who understand the processes and independently evaluate the results. If the the results are not acceptable they say so, and the problems are fixed. This requires:
</p><p>
1. Technical domain competence
</p><p>
2. Independence
</p><p>
3. Authority
</p><p>
Obviously, the evaluators are at odds with the people doing the project, because there job is to stop things from being completed. They are the spoilers.
</p><p>
When the evaluators are part of the organization, it is easier for them to be underfunded and ignored. It is also hard to get the best people to do this work, because it tends to be low status and also tends to pay less.
</p><p>
The best solution is to have an independently funded group with a separate chain of command that reports outside the regular channels: like the NTSB being outside the FAA. Their major weakness is lack of authority, because the FAA can, and does, ignore them. Typically it takes a spectacular high fatality preventable accident for change to occur.
</p><p>
An example in a different area is public prosecutors in our legal system. They are (supposedly) independent and follow the law, not the dictates of any particular group. (In practice, not so much. At the local level then are aligned with law enforcement, which is why cops are almost never caught or conviced of crimes.)
</p><p>
Now some real world failures from today's news. Literally today.
</p><p>
<em>Toyota</em> They used pressure tactics and out maneuvered the regulators. This whole discussion is about the failure to have technical expertise on the part of the regulator.
</p><p>
<em>Nuclear Regulatory Commision</em> In Vermont it was just revealed that tritium leaks were unreported starting in 2005, although leaks were also reported later. The plant operator lied. The NRC has a relative small number of inspectors, and they count on operators to follow all the rules and self report. I guess they also believe in the Tooth Fairy.
</p><p>
<em>FDA</em> The diabetes drug Avandia is responsible for hundred of heart attacks <em>per month.</em> This has been systematically under reported in the medical press and critics have been pressured and given the run around. The FDA knows about it, and had a review/whitewash session last year. During the Bush years the revolving door  and payments from drug companies to "independent" research groups became a lucrative way of life. So hundreds of people die every month <a href="http://www.examiner.com/x-32805-Norfolk-Healthy-Living-Examiner~y2010m2d23-Major-Medical-Alert-Diabetes-drug-Avandia-responsible-for-monthly-heart-attacks-and-heart-failures" title="examiner.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.examiner.com/x-32805-Norfolk-Healthy-Living-Examiner~y2010m2d23-Major-Medical-Alert-Diabetes-drug-Avandia-responsible-for-monthly-heart-attacks-and-heart-failures</a> [examiner.com]. Who cares when Big Pharma is raking in the cash.
</p><p>
<em>SEC/Bank of America/Merrill Lynch</em> The judge just approved a $150 million fine for B of A for lying to stockholders about their merger with Merrill Lynch. The judge called the settlement "paltry" and "half baked justice", but had to approve it under existing law. <a href="http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2010/02/bofa\_settlement.html" title="consumeraffairs.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2010</a> [consumeraffairs.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Another Slashdot Pundit gets it wrong .
When you have safety critical systems , there has to be somebody who can evaluate the system for safety .
Preferably multiple somebodies .
The way it is supposed to work is that technically responsible people write requirements that when followed correctly lead to acceptable results .
This is what ISO-9001 is all about .
It does not mandate " you must do procedure X " ; it mandates that you must have a system that defines what processes you employ , and how you verify that they have been followed .
In theory , your process could be throwing darts at paper target , and by retaining the target as an " artifact " you can show you followed your process .
In the real world there are " best practices " , and a lot of meetings and reviews and " artifacts " .
The organizational issue is having a group of people who understand the processes and independently evaluate the results .
If the the results are not acceptable they say so , and the problems are fixed .
This requires : 1 .
Technical domain competence 2 .
Independence 3 .
Authority Obviously , the evaluators are at odds with the people doing the project , because there job is to stop things from being completed .
They are the spoilers .
When the evaluators are part of the organization , it is easier for them to be underfunded and ignored .
It is also hard to get the best people to do this work , because it tends to be low status and also tends to pay less .
The best solution is to have an independently funded group with a separate chain of command that reports outside the regular channels : like the NTSB being outside the FAA .
Their major weakness is lack of authority , because the FAA can , and does , ignore them .
Typically it takes a spectacular high fatality preventable accident for change to occur .
An example in a different area is public prosecutors in our legal system .
They are ( supposedly ) independent and follow the law , not the dictates of any particular group .
( In practice , not so much .
At the local level then are aligned with law enforcement , which is why cops are almost never caught or conviced of crimes .
) Now some real world failures from today 's news .
Literally today .
Toyota They used pressure tactics and out maneuvered the regulators .
This whole discussion is about the failure to have technical expertise on the part of the regulator .
Nuclear Regulatory Commision In Vermont it was just revealed that tritium leaks were unreported starting in 2005 , although leaks were also reported later .
The plant operator lied .
The NRC has a relative small number of inspectors , and they count on operators to follow all the rules and self report .
I guess they also believe in the Tooth Fairy .
FDA The diabetes drug Avandia is responsible for hundred of heart attacks per month .
This has been systematically under reported in the medical press and critics have been pressured and given the run around .
The FDA knows about it , and had a review/whitewash session last year .
During the Bush years the revolving door and payments from drug companies to " independent " research groups became a lucrative way of life .
So hundreds of people die every month http : //www.examiner.com/x-32805-Norfolk-Healthy-Living-Examiner ~ y2010m2d23-Major-Medical-Alert-Diabetes-drug-Avandia-responsible-for-monthly-heart-attacks-and-heart-failures [ examiner.com ] .
Who cares when Big Pharma is raking in the cash .
SEC/Bank of America/Merrill Lynch The judge just approved a $ 150 million fine for B of A for lying to stockholders about their merger with Merrill Lynch .
The judge called the settlement " paltry " and " half baked justice " , but had to approve it under existing law .
http : //www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2010 [ consumeraffairs.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Another Slashdot Pundit gets it wrong.
When you have safety critical systems,  there has to be somebody who can evaluate the system for safety.
Preferably multiple somebodies.
The way it is supposed to work is that technically responsible people write requirements that when followed correctly lead to acceptable results.
This is what ISO-9001 is all about.
It does not mandate "you must do procedure X"; it mandates that you must have a system that defines what processes you employ, and how you verify that they have been followed.
In theory, your process could be throwing darts at paper target, and by retaining the target as an "artifact" you can show you followed your process.
In the real world there are "best practices", and a lot of meetings and reviews and  "artifacts".
The organizational issue is having a group of people who understand the processes and independently evaluate the results.
If the the results are not acceptable they say so, and the problems are fixed.
This requires:

1.
Technical domain competence

2.
Independence

3.
Authority

Obviously, the evaluators are at odds with the people doing the project, because there job is to stop things from being completed.
They are the spoilers.
When the evaluators are part of the organization, it is easier for them to be underfunded and ignored.
It is also hard to get the best people to do this work, because it tends to be low status and also tends to pay less.
The best solution is to have an independently funded group with a separate chain of command that reports outside the regular channels: like the NTSB being outside the FAA.
Their major weakness is lack of authority, because the FAA can, and does, ignore them.
Typically it takes a spectacular high fatality preventable accident for change to occur.
An example in a different area is public prosecutors in our legal system.
They are (supposedly) independent and follow the law, not the dictates of any particular group.
(In practice, not so much.
At the local level then are aligned with law enforcement, which is why cops are almost never caught or conviced of crimes.
)

Now some real world failures from today's news.
Literally today.
Toyota They used pressure tactics and out maneuvered the regulators.
This whole discussion is about the failure to have technical expertise on the part of the regulator.
Nuclear Regulatory Commision In Vermont it was just revealed that tritium leaks were unreported starting in 2005, although leaks were also reported later.
The plant operator lied.
The NRC has a relative small number of inspectors, and they count on operators to follow all the rules and self report.
I guess they also believe in the Tooth Fairy.
FDA The diabetes drug Avandia is responsible for hundred of heart attacks per month.
This has been systematically under reported in the medical press and critics have been pressured and given the run around.
The FDA knows about it, and had a review/whitewash session last year.
During the Bush years the revolving door  and payments from drug companies to "independent" research groups became a lucrative way of life.
So hundreds of people die every month http://www.examiner.com/x-32805-Norfolk-Healthy-Living-Examiner~y2010m2d23-Major-Medical-Alert-Diabetes-drug-Avandia-responsible-for-monthly-heart-attacks-and-heart-failures [examiner.com].
Who cares when Big Pharma is raking in the cash.
SEC/Bank of America/Merrill Lynch The judge just approved a $150 million fine for B of A for lying to stockholders about their merger with Merrill Lynch.
The judge called the settlement "paltry" and "half baked justice", but had to approve it under existing law.
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2010 [consumeraffairs.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251170</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251002</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266921900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>I don't why I even respond because I'm sure to get a troll mod but I'd just like to point out that one of the major political parties solution to bad government is no government at all.  This poorly functioning government is a direct result of the dual conservative mantras:  1) deregulation of markets is necessary for them to perform well and 2) less government is better.  We saw how well #1 worked in the banking industry, this is more of the same.  #2 results in chronically understaffed government agencies, or government agencies not able to do what they're supposed to do (e.g. the Republican senators holding up Obama's appointees right now). <br> <br>  My parents both worked for the FDA and if the NHTSA operates in any similar way to the FDA, it's a shadow of itself in the 1970s.  For the FDA that means that there are less food inspectors and no surprise, there is a rise in food poisoning incidents.  I wouldn't be surprised if NHTSA is also chronically understaffed.  Additionally, even if individual government workers wanted to do their jobs, they are often prevented by doing so because that is not perceived as "business friendly". The political appointees who run the show are in the thrall of private industry, in fact, they are often people taken directly from private industry (e.g. big pharma lobbyists often run the FDA).  This "government capture" is the fault of the democrats just as much as the republicans, e.g. Obama lied about hiring lobbyists in his campaign.  Basically, we have a non-functioning government and one party's answer to this is the get rid of the thing all together.  That is one solution but that wouldn't prevent things like this incident with Toyota. <br> <br> I'm sure Toyota will do the right thing though, because that would be in its interests as a good corporate citizen. *snicker*</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't why I even respond because I 'm sure to get a troll mod but I 'd just like to point out that one of the major political parties solution to bad government is no government at all .
This poorly functioning government is a direct result of the dual conservative mantras : 1 ) deregulation of markets is necessary for them to perform well and 2 ) less government is better .
We saw how well # 1 worked in the banking industry , this is more of the same .
# 2 results in chronically understaffed government agencies , or government agencies not able to do what they 're supposed to do ( e.g .
the Republican senators holding up Obama 's appointees right now ) .
My parents both worked for the FDA and if the NHTSA operates in any similar way to the FDA , it 's a shadow of itself in the 1970s .
For the FDA that means that there are less food inspectors and no surprise , there is a rise in food poisoning incidents .
I would n't be surprised if NHTSA is also chronically understaffed .
Additionally , even if individual government workers wanted to do their jobs , they are often prevented by doing so because that is not perceived as " business friendly " .
The political appointees who run the show are in the thrall of private industry , in fact , they are often people taken directly from private industry ( e.g .
big pharma lobbyists often run the FDA ) .
This " government capture " is the fault of the democrats just as much as the republicans , e.g .
Obama lied about hiring lobbyists in his campaign .
Basically , we have a non-functioning government and one party 's answer to this is the get rid of the thing all together .
That is one solution but that would n't prevent things like this incident with Toyota .
I 'm sure Toyota will do the right thing though , because that would be in its interests as a good corporate citizen .
* snicker *</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't why I even respond because I'm sure to get a troll mod but I'd just like to point out that one of the major political parties solution to bad government is no government at all.
This poorly functioning government is a direct result of the dual conservative mantras:  1) deregulation of markets is necessary for them to perform well and 2) less government is better.
We saw how well #1 worked in the banking industry, this is more of the same.
#2 results in chronically understaffed government agencies, or government agencies not able to do what they're supposed to do (e.g.
the Republican senators holding up Obama's appointees right now).
My parents both worked for the FDA and if the NHTSA operates in any similar way to the FDA, it's a shadow of itself in the 1970s.
For the FDA that means that there are less food inspectors and no surprise, there is a rise in food poisoning incidents.
I wouldn't be surprised if NHTSA is also chronically understaffed.
Additionally, even if individual government workers wanted to do their jobs, they are often prevented by doing so because that is not perceived as "business friendly".
The political appointees who run the show are in the thrall of private industry, in fact, they are often people taken directly from private industry (e.g.
big pharma lobbyists often run the FDA).
This "government capture" is the fault of the democrats just as much as the republicans, e.g.
Obama lied about hiring lobbyists in his campaign.
Basically, we have a non-functioning government and one party's answer to this is the get rid of the thing all together.
That is one solution but that wouldn't prevent things like this incident with Toyota.
I'm sure Toyota will do the right thing though, because that would be in its interests as a good corporate citizen.
*snicker*</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250576</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251412</id>
	<title>Anyone else think there might be some bloat?</title>
	<author>jollyreaper</author>
	<datestamp>1266923280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Jesus Christ, is this a suitable and proper application for the technology? There is such a thing as overengineering. If the system is too complex to safely maintain, it's too complex to deploy, end of story. I don't care what features you're touting if the failure mode for that vehicle is me and my passengers looking like Buddhist monks protesting something.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Jesus Christ , is this a suitable and proper application for the technology ?
There is such a thing as overengineering .
If the system is too complex to safely maintain , it 's too complex to deploy , end of story .
I do n't care what features you 're touting if the failure mode for that vehicle is me and my passengers looking like Buddhist monks protesting something .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Jesus Christ, is this a suitable and proper application for the technology?
There is such a thing as overengineering.
If the system is too complex to safely maintain, it's too complex to deploy, end of story.
I don't care what features you're touting if the failure mode for that vehicle is me and my passengers looking like Buddhist monks protesting something.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251740</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266924480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Just remember that the only thing to stand up to a big business nowadays is big government, and the goal of any big business is to convince everyone that a small government can watch over big business just like a big government can.</p></div><p>You want to stand up to big business?</p><p>Demand that Big Government stop propping up giant corporations with tax breaks, tax shields, regulations that strangle small business' ability to effectively compete, and generous anti-trust exemptions.</p><p>Corporations, after all, are merely a artificial legal entities created by the government.</p><p>Government is part of the problem; more of it won't solve the problem!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Just remember that the only thing to stand up to a big business nowadays is big government , and the goal of any big business is to convince everyone that a small government can watch over big business just like a big government can.You want to stand up to big business ? Demand that Big Government stop propping up giant corporations with tax breaks , tax shields , regulations that strangle small business ' ability to effectively compete , and generous anti-trust exemptions.Corporations , after all , are merely a artificial legal entities created by the government.Government is part of the problem ; more of it wo n't solve the problem !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just remember that the only thing to stand up to a big business nowadays is big government, and the goal of any big business is to convince everyone that a small government can watch over big business just like a big government can.You want to stand up to big business?Demand that Big Government stop propping up giant corporations with tax breaks, tax shields, regulations that strangle small business' ability to effectively compete, and generous anti-trust exemptions.Corporations, after all, are merely a artificial legal entities created by the government.Government is part of the problem; more of it won't solve the problem!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250754</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31252376</id>
	<title>Source Lines of Code</title>
	<author>yurtinus</author>
	<datestamp>1266927420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Everybody does SLOC counting differently, so who knows what that number actually represents (maybe all the lines in image and movie files for the entertainment system?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:P ). I wouldn't mind seeing a breakdown of lines of code per component-- betting there's a HUGE percentage in the entertainment and navigation systems with just a tiny fraction in actual control systems.
<br> <br>
Most embedded control systems count code lines in the thousands, I'd expect the car to be similar until you run into fancy graphics and superfluous luxuries.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Everybody does SLOC counting differently , so who knows what that number actually represents ( maybe all the lines in image and movie files for the entertainment system ?
: P ) .
I would n't mind seeing a breakdown of lines of code per component-- betting there 's a HUGE percentage in the entertainment and navigation systems with just a tiny fraction in actual control systems .
Most embedded control systems count code lines in the thousands , I 'd expect the car to be similar until you run into fancy graphics and superfluous luxuries .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Everybody does SLOC counting differently, so who knows what that number actually represents (maybe all the lines in image and movie files for the entertainment system?
:P ).
I wouldn't mind seeing a breakdown of lines of code per component-- betting there's a HUGE percentage in the entertainment and navigation systems with just a tiny fraction in actual control systems.
Most embedded control systems count code lines in the thousands, I'd expect the car to be similar until you run into fancy graphics and superfluous luxuries.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250628</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31288126</id>
	<title>Re:100 million lines? Sure, we will get right on i</title>
	<author>BitZtream</author>
	<datestamp>1267211460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'd just like to point out an article linked in another post which said:</p><blockquote><div><p>The avionics system in the F-22 Raptor, the current U.S. Air Force frontline jet fighter, consists of about 1.7 million lines of software code. The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, scheduled to become operational in 2010, will require about 5.7 million lines of code to operate its onboard systems. And Boeing&rsquo;s new 787 Dreamliner, scheduled to be delivered to customers in 2010, requires about 6.5 million lines of software code to operate its avionics and onboard support systems.</p></div></blockquote><p>So<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... regardless of how you look at it, that luxary car doesn't have a reason to have more code than any of those machines, which all do everything that the luxary car does, and more, most of the time they do everything the car does in triplicate for safety reasons, and they have to communicate and arbitrate what to do when 1 of 3 systems disagrees with the other.</p><p>Anyone who thinks any car on the road has 100 million lines of code in it knows nothing about programming at all.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd just like to point out an article linked in another post which said : The avionics system in the F-22 Raptor , the current U.S. Air Force frontline jet fighter , consists of about 1.7 million lines of software code .
The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter , scheduled to become operational in 2010 , will require about 5.7 million lines of code to operate its onboard systems .
And Boeing    s new 787 Dreamliner , scheduled to be delivered to customers in 2010 , requires about 6.5 million lines of software code to operate its avionics and onboard support systems.So ... regardless of how you look at it , that luxary car does n't have a reason to have more code than any of those machines , which all do everything that the luxary car does , and more , most of the time they do everything the car does in triplicate for safety reasons , and they have to communicate and arbitrate what to do when 1 of 3 systems disagrees with the other.Anyone who thinks any car on the road has 100 million lines of code in it knows nothing about programming at all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd just like to point out an article linked in another post which said:The avionics system in the F-22 Raptor, the current U.S. Air Force frontline jet fighter, consists of about 1.7 million lines of software code.
The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, scheduled to become operational in 2010, will require about 5.7 million lines of code to operate its onboard systems.
And Boeing’s new 787 Dreamliner, scheduled to be delivered to customers in 2010, requires about 6.5 million lines of software code to operate its avionics and onboard support systems.So ... regardless of how you look at it, that luxary car doesn't have a reason to have more code than any of those machines, which all do everything that the luxary car does, and more, most of the time they do everything the car does in triplicate for safety reasons, and they have to communicate and arbitrate what to do when 1 of 3 systems disagrees with the other.Anyone who thinks any car on the road has 100 million lines of code in it knows nothing about programming at all.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251448</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31252416</id>
	<title>Re:100 million lines? Sure, we will get right on i</title>
	<author>Pentium100</author>
	<datestamp>1266927720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The more I read this, the more I want an old car which does not have so many points of failure. Those computers are interconnected using wires, wires oxidize and may sometimes fail. It looks like it would be a lot of fun trying to find the problem with a car, when some of the interconnecting links have partially failed (a few wires on a parallel bus, too much noise on a serial bus etc).</p><p>Also, those computers just make the car more complex without actually being of much use.</p><p>In your example, slamming on the brakes would stop any car, one that has the complex electronics and one that just brakes. Airbags have to be deployed by some collision sensor so some complexity will still be there. It's not much point in turning off the radio after you crashed (in what cases would that be useful?). HVAC should stop when the engine stops (if it is a serious crash then the engine will be stopped by the object that you crashed into; if it is not that serious then you will stop the engine or the engine will stall seeing that the car may be still in gear and stopped).</p><p>See? The huge number of processors in a car is just for the sake if complexity and higher repair costs.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The more I read this , the more I want an old car which does not have so many points of failure .
Those computers are interconnected using wires , wires oxidize and may sometimes fail .
It looks like it would be a lot of fun trying to find the problem with a car , when some of the interconnecting links have partially failed ( a few wires on a parallel bus , too much noise on a serial bus etc ) .Also , those computers just make the car more complex without actually being of much use.In your example , slamming on the brakes would stop any car , one that has the complex electronics and one that just brakes .
Airbags have to be deployed by some collision sensor so some complexity will still be there .
It 's not much point in turning off the radio after you crashed ( in what cases would that be useful ? ) .
HVAC should stop when the engine stops ( if it is a serious crash then the engine will be stopped by the object that you crashed into ; if it is not that serious then you will stop the engine or the engine will stall seeing that the car may be still in gear and stopped ) .See ?
The huge number of processors in a car is just for the sake if complexity and higher repair costs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The more I read this, the more I want an old car which does not have so many points of failure.
Those computers are interconnected using wires, wires oxidize and may sometimes fail.
It looks like it would be a lot of fun trying to find the problem with a car, when some of the interconnecting links have partially failed (a few wires on a parallel bus, too much noise on a serial bus etc).Also, those computers just make the car more complex without actually being of much use.In your example, slamming on the brakes would stop any car, one that has the complex electronics and one that just brakes.
Airbags have to be deployed by some collision sensor so some complexity will still be there.
It's not much point in turning off the radio after you crashed (in what cases would that be useful?).
HVAC should stop when the engine stops (if it is a serious crash then the engine will be stopped by the object that you crashed into; if it is not that serious then you will stop the engine or the engine will stall seeing that the car may be still in gear and stopped).See?
The huge number of processors in a car is just for the sake if complexity and higher repair costs.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251448</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31252730</id>
	<title>Re:Seems like a lot of code</title>
	<author>speedingant</author>
	<datestamp>1266929100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>  And, frankly, there's no way they will test that code completely every time they update it.</p></div><p>Perhaps this is where the problems stemmed?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>And , frankly , there 's no way they will test that code completely every time they update it.Perhaps this is where the problems stemmed ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>  And, frankly, there's no way they will test that code completely every time they update it.Perhaps this is where the problems stemmed?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31252136</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250632</id>
	<title>software TOYOTA?</title>
	<author>fregare</author>
	<datestamp>1266920700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>What is this thing called software and what is a TOYOTA?</htmltext>
<tokenext>What is this thing called software and what is a TOYOTA ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What is this thing called software and what is a TOYOTA?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251036</id>
	<title>Re:Welp</title>
	<author>jadin</author>
	<datestamp>1266922020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Which is exactly why they are under investigation - to find out when they knew about the problem. If they waited until the cost justified the recall, they could be in trouble.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Which is exactly why they are under investigation - to find out when they knew about the problem .
If they waited until the cost justified the recall , they could be in trouble .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Which is exactly why they are under investigation - to find out when they knew about the problem.
If they waited until the cost justified the recall, they could be in trouble.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250558</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31252502</id>
	<title>100 million lines of code on 70 processors?</title>
	<author>goffster</author>
	<datestamp>1266928080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would be more interested in the process of how<br>Toyota develops/maintains code.  Do they rewrite code for every car?<br>When they reuse code, how do they retest assertions?<br>How do they do code verification?<br>What is their culture when coding problems interfere w/deadlines ?<br>Is there a whole crap load of unused code in there because<br>they are scared shitless to remove it ?</p><p>etc.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would be more interested in the process of howToyota develops/maintains code .
Do they rewrite code for every car ? When they reuse code , how do they retest assertions ? How do they do code verification ? What is their culture when coding problems interfere w/deadlines ? Is there a whole crap load of unused code in there becausethey are scared shitless to remove it ? etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would be more interested in the process of howToyota develops/maintains code.
Do they rewrite code for every car?When they reuse code, how do they retest assertions?How do they do code verification?What is their culture when coding problems interfere w/deadlines ?Is there a whole crap load of unused code in there becausethey are scared shitless to remove it ?etc.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251638</id>
	<title>Re:How many microprocessors was that again?</title>
	<author>nblender</author>
	<datestamp>1266924120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I did a gasoline-&gt;diesel swap on my toyota which included an auto-&gt;manual transmission swap.  I removed about 6 computers in the process, including the small one that controlled whether you could push in the shift-lock button depending on whether the brake pedal is pressed.  I'm sure they count that as a 'microprocessor' and there are probably a small handful of lines of code there, but it's there nonetheless...
<p>
There's a bug in the implementation, however.  The microprocessor doesn't take the brake-pedal switch as input, it takes the return path from one of the rear brake lights.  If you have a burnt out brake light, you can't shift out of 'Park'... But I digress...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I did a gasoline- &gt; diesel swap on my toyota which included an auto- &gt; manual transmission swap .
I removed about 6 computers in the process , including the small one that controlled whether you could push in the shift-lock button depending on whether the brake pedal is pressed .
I 'm sure they count that as a 'microprocessor ' and there are probably a small handful of lines of code there , but it 's there nonetheless.. . There 's a bug in the implementation , however .
The microprocessor does n't take the brake-pedal switch as input , it takes the return path from one of the rear brake lights .
If you have a burnt out brake light , you ca n't shift out of 'Park'... But I digress.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I did a gasoline-&gt;diesel swap on my toyota which included an auto-&gt;manual transmission swap.
I removed about 6 computers in the process, including the small one that controlled whether you could push in the shift-lock button depending on whether the brake pedal is pressed.
I'm sure they count that as a 'microprocessor' and there are probably a small handful of lines of code there, but it's there nonetheless...

There's a bug in the implementation, however.
The microprocessor doesn't take the brake-pedal switch as input, it takes the return path from one of the rear brake lights.
If you have a burnt out brake light, you can't shift out of 'Park'... But I digress...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250718</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251978</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>operagost</author>
	<datestamp>1266925500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p> <tt>Much of this based on Greenspan-style Libertarian philosophies that market forces can correct any problem including fraud and crime, a position which he himself has now renounced and we as a people have yet to heed.</tt></p></div> </blockquote><p>The Federal Reserve would not exist in a libertarian society.  I guess someone modded you up as "funny" because "ignorant" isn't an option. The first and second banks of the US served their functions (until the second became corrupt and President Jackson rightfully killed it), but the Fed is corrupt, enigmatic, and detrimental to the republic.  Since FDR, it has allowed the USA to essentially print money at will and rob the people through inflation.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Much of this based on Greenspan-style Libertarian philosophies that market forces can correct any problem including fraud and crime , a position which he himself has now renounced and we as a people have yet to heed .
The Federal Reserve would not exist in a libertarian society .
I guess someone modded you up as " funny " because " ignorant " is n't an option .
The first and second banks of the US served their functions ( until the second became corrupt and President Jackson rightfully killed it ) , but the Fed is corrupt , enigmatic , and detrimental to the republic .
Since FDR , it has allowed the USA to essentially print money at will and rob the people through inflation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> Much of this based on Greenspan-style Libertarian philosophies that market forces can correct any problem including fraud and crime, a position which he himself has now renounced and we as a people have yet to heed.
The Federal Reserve would not exist in a libertarian society.
I guess someone modded you up as "funny" because "ignorant" isn't an option.
The first and second banks of the US served their functions (until the second became corrupt and President Jackson rightfully killed it), but the Fed is corrupt, enigmatic, and detrimental to the republic.
Since FDR, it has allowed the USA to essentially print money at will and rob the people through inflation.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251546</id>
	<title>The article..</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266923820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The article is complete bullshit and just more kdawson FUD. Please stop feeding the kdawson troll.</p><p>C'mon people, you're supposedly smart yet you're willing to believe regular consumer cars have millions of lines of code in them running on hundreds of processors.</p><p>Obviously you didn't read the article. If you did, you'd know it's closer to satire than reality.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The article is complete bullshit and just more kdawson FUD .
Please stop feeding the kdawson troll.C'mon people , you 're supposedly smart yet you 're willing to believe regular consumer cars have millions of lines of code in them running on hundreds of processors.Obviously you did n't read the article .
If you did , you 'd know it 's closer to satire than reality .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The article is complete bullshit and just more kdawson FUD.
Please stop feeding the kdawson troll.C'mon people, you're supposedly smart yet you're willing to believe regular consumer cars have millions of lines of code in them running on hundreds of processors.Obviously you didn't read the article.
If you did, you'd know it's closer to satire than reality.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250506</id>
	<title>With all the recent US layoffs ...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266920280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>... there is plenty of talent out there for them to hire - even if only on a project by project basis.</htmltext>
<tokenext>... there is plenty of talent out there for them to hire - even if only on a project by project basis .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... there is plenty of talent out there for them to hire - even if only on a project by project basis.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31255832</id>
	<title>I just HAVE to ask this question...</title>
	<author>cyberjock1980</author>
	<datestamp>1266949680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Bear with me for a second here...</p><p>The three laws of robotics:</p><p>1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.<br>2. A robot must obey any orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict  with the First Law.<br>3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.</p><p>I know that a car is not a robot. But the same rules should apply for ANY computer system that, in case of a serious bug, could result in any of those 3 laws being broken.</p><p>This computer literally controls a rather large piece of metal that can travel at speeds sufficient to kill someone.  So why is there no subroutine that ensure that brake pedal input will ALWAYS override the gas pedal input?  It seems that even on the absolute most basic of level, adding this extremely basic concept could seriously mitigate these issues.  Not to mention all of the legal responsibilities, public outcry, and other consequences of not having software or hardware with these "basic" concepts built in.</p><p>Even when making a car and using this system on a test site somewhere.  Wouldn't you want to have LOADS of extra code in there to make sure a bug in the software doesn't kill the driver at the test site?  It seems to me Toyota's definition of "safety" is practically non-existent.</p><p>Honestly, when seeing something like this, I have to question what kind of work ethic Toyota has and how much they value me as a customer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Bear with me for a second here...The three laws of robotics : 1 .
A robot may not injure a human being or , through inaction , allow a human being to come to harm.2 .
A robot must obey any orders given to it by human beings , except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.3 .
A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.I know that a car is not a robot .
But the same rules should apply for ANY computer system that , in case of a serious bug , could result in any of those 3 laws being broken.This computer literally controls a rather large piece of metal that can travel at speeds sufficient to kill someone .
So why is there no subroutine that ensure that brake pedal input will ALWAYS override the gas pedal input ?
It seems that even on the absolute most basic of level , adding this extremely basic concept could seriously mitigate these issues .
Not to mention all of the legal responsibilities , public outcry , and other consequences of not having software or hardware with these " basic " concepts built in.Even when making a car and using this system on a test site somewhere .
Would n't you want to have LOADS of extra code in there to make sure a bug in the software does n't kill the driver at the test site ?
It seems to me Toyota 's definition of " safety " is practically non-existent.Honestly , when seeing something like this , I have to question what kind of work ethic Toyota has and how much they value me as a customer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Bear with me for a second here...The three laws of robotics:1.
A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.2.
A robot must obey any orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict  with the First Law.3.
A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.I know that a car is not a robot.
But the same rules should apply for ANY computer system that, in case of a serious bug, could result in any of those 3 laws being broken.This computer literally controls a rather large piece of metal that can travel at speeds sufficient to kill someone.
So why is there no subroutine that ensure that brake pedal input will ALWAYS override the gas pedal input?
It seems that even on the absolute most basic of level, adding this extremely basic concept could seriously mitigate these issues.
Not to mention all of the legal responsibilities, public outcry, and other consequences of not having software or hardware with these "basic" concepts built in.Even when making a car and using this system on a test site somewhere.
Wouldn't you want to have LOADS of extra code in there to make sure a bug in the software doesn't kill the driver at the test site?
It seems to me Toyota's definition of "safety" is practically non-existent.Honestly, when seeing something like this, I have to question what kind of work ethic Toyota has and how much they value me as a customer.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251280</id>
	<title>Re:100 million lines? Sure, we will get right on i</title>
	<author>SeattleGameboy</author>
	<datestamp>1266922800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Last time I checked, there were something like 1500 or so complaints about sudden acceleartion filed. They recalled 8 million cars, but if you include every model with the complaint, you are probably looking at 4X or 5X of that number. Even if you stick with 8 million, 1500 out if 8 million is 0.019\%. Good luck trying to reproduce a problem that has a reproducible rate of 0.019\%.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Last time I checked , there were something like 1500 or so complaints about sudden acceleartion filed .
They recalled 8 million cars , but if you include every model with the complaint , you are probably looking at 4X or 5X of that number .
Even if you stick with 8 million , 1500 out if 8 million is 0.019 \ % .
Good luck trying to reproduce a problem that has a reproducible rate of 0.019 \ % .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Last time I checked, there were something like 1500 or so complaints about sudden acceleartion filed.
They recalled 8 million cars, but if you include every model with the complaint, you are probably looking at 4X or 5X of that number.
Even if you stick with 8 million, 1500 out if 8 million is 0.019\%.
Good luck trying to reproduce a problem that has a reproducible rate of 0.019\%.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250674</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251066</id>
	<title>Re:Computer Engineers needed</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266922080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>They don't need Electrial Engineers or Software Engineers. They need <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer\_engineering" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">Computer Engineers</a> [wikipedia.org], people who are trained to understand both sides of the hardware/software boundary.</p></div><p>They don't need any engineers. I have it on good confidence that the entire accelerator problem is related to the floor mats.</p><p>Check please!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>They do n't need Electrial Engineers or Software Engineers .
They need Computer Engineers [ wikipedia.org ] , people who are trained to understand both sides of the hardware/software boundary.They do n't need any engineers .
I have it on good confidence that the entire accelerator problem is related to the floor mats.Check please !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They don't need Electrial Engineers or Software Engineers.
They need Computer Engineers [wikipedia.org], people who are trained to understand both sides of the hardware/software boundary.They don't need any engineers.
I have it on good confidence that the entire accelerator problem is related to the floor mats.Check please!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250588</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250752</id>
	<title>Re:100 million lines of code??</title>
	<author>WrongSizeGlass</author>
	<datestamp>1266921120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I doubt all the lifetime output of all the readers of this thread, combined, equals 100 million.</p> </div><p>Surely you jest<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... or you've been favorably sheltered from our endless verbosity, pedantic ramblings and self-serving diatribes.<br> <br>
Dr Zoidberg: Loot at me, I'm helping!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I doubt all the lifetime output of all the readers of this thread , combined , equals 100 million .
Surely you jest ... or you 've been favorably sheltered from our endless verbosity , pedantic ramblings and self-serving diatribes .
Dr Zoidberg : Loot at me , I 'm helping !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I doubt all the lifetime output of all the readers of this thread, combined, equals 100 million.
Surely you jest ... or you've been favorably sheltered from our endless verbosity, pedantic ramblings and self-serving diatribes.
Dr Zoidberg: Loot at me, I'm helping!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250628</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31253450</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266932520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, small government (reduced regulators) allows the big boys to get bigger and allows these titans unfettered practice of their brand of moral flexibility. I would gladly suffer a compliance department at Ann's Beauty Salon (and the passed on costs), if it helps avoid the damages of Toyota, Enron, Tyco, Lehman Bros, etc. I get the feeling that Adam Smith's invisible is really just giving us finger.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , small government ( reduced regulators ) allows the big boys to get bigger and allows these titans unfettered practice of their brand of moral flexibility .
I would gladly suffer a compliance department at Ann 's Beauty Salon ( and the passed on costs ) , if it helps avoid the damages of Toyota , Enron , Tyco , Lehman Bros , etc .
I get the feeling that Adam Smith 's invisible is really just giving us finger .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, small government (reduced regulators) allows the big boys to get bigger and allows these titans unfettered practice of their brand of moral flexibility.
I would gladly suffer a compliance department at Ann's Beauty Salon (and the passed on costs), if it helps avoid the damages of Toyota, Enron, Tyco, Lehman Bros, etc.
I get the feeling that Adam Smith's invisible is really just giving us finger.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251116</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250674</id>
	<title>100 million lines?  Sure, we will get right on it</title>
	<author>jeffmeden</author>
	<datestamp>1266920880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What exactly would the NHTSA do with a set of engineers?  Audit all 100 million lines of code for each and every car they suspect has a safety issue with the computer system?  Yeah, that sounds like a worthwhile endeavor.  How about they do it the old fashioned way; collect the reports, identify the risk, and sanction the manufacturer to find/fix the problem.  Thinking that an NHTSA coder (or a hundred) would have gotten to the bottom of this Toyota issue in any reasonable amount of time is a joke!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What exactly would the NHTSA do with a set of engineers ?
Audit all 100 million lines of code for each and every car they suspect has a safety issue with the computer system ?
Yeah , that sounds like a worthwhile endeavor .
How about they do it the old fashioned way ; collect the reports , identify the risk , and sanction the manufacturer to find/fix the problem .
Thinking that an NHTSA coder ( or a hundred ) would have gotten to the bottom of this Toyota issue in any reasonable amount of time is a joke !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What exactly would the NHTSA do with a set of engineers?
Audit all 100 million lines of code for each and every car they suspect has a safety issue with the computer system?
Yeah, that sounds like a worthwhile endeavor.
How about they do it the old fashioned way; collect the reports, identify the risk, and sanction the manufacturer to find/fix the problem.
Thinking that an NHTSA coder (or a hundred) would have gotten to the bottom of this Toyota issue in any reasonable amount of time is a joke!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251450</id>
	<title>Re:Welp</title>
	<author>ShakaUVM</author>
	<datestamp>1266923400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Such is the cost of more complicated technology. Although, I will admit, this problem seems awfully widespread for Toyota to have not caught this at some point in their QC/QA process.</p><p>I'm reminded of the "recall" speech in Fight Club...</p><p>Me too, except my car, which also had a sudden acceleration problem, never got recalled. '85 Caprice Classics were famous for their cruise control systems engaging spontaneously, and at an arbitrarily high speed level, meaning that one day when I was driving around the campus loop, my car suddenly accelerated. I sped through a 4-way stop, nearly hit a few pedestrians, brakes didn't respond (because the accelerator was down) and I had a very panicked few seconds of driving until I just turned the car off and stomped both feet on the now non-power braking brakes. Fortunately I didn't hit anyone or even get a ticket, but the car company never acknowledged it as a problem, though you'll find accounts of similar stories all over the internet.</p></div></blockquote></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Such is the cost of more complicated technology .
Although , I will admit , this problem seems awfully widespread for Toyota to have not caught this at some point in their QC/QA process.I 'm reminded of the " recall " speech in Fight Club...Me too , except my car , which also had a sudden acceleration problem , never got recalled .
'85 Caprice Classics were famous for their cruise control systems engaging spontaneously , and at an arbitrarily high speed level , meaning that one day when I was driving around the campus loop , my car suddenly accelerated .
I sped through a 4-way stop , nearly hit a few pedestrians , brakes did n't respond ( because the accelerator was down ) and I had a very panicked few seconds of driving until I just turned the car off and stomped both feet on the now non-power braking brakes .
Fortunately I did n't hit anyone or even get a ticket , but the car company never acknowledged it as a problem , though you 'll find accounts of similar stories all over the internet .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Such is the cost of more complicated technology.
Although, I will admit, this problem seems awfully widespread for Toyota to have not caught this at some point in their QC/QA process.I'm reminded of the "recall" speech in Fight Club...Me too, except my car, which also had a sudden acceleration problem, never got recalled.
'85 Caprice Classics were famous for their cruise control systems engaging spontaneously, and at an arbitrarily high speed level, meaning that one day when I was driving around the campus loop, my car suddenly accelerated.
I sped through a 4-way stop, nearly hit a few pedestrians, brakes didn't respond (because the accelerator was down) and I had a very panicked few seconds of driving until I just turned the car off and stomped both feet on the now non-power braking brakes.
Fortunately I didn't hit anyone or even get a ticket, but the car company never acknowledged it as a problem, though you'll find accounts of similar stories all over the internet.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250558</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251870</id>
	<title>Government Motors' final solution</title>
	<author>chefshoemaker</author>
	<datestamp>1266924960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It's all about the union-backed government lapdogs
licking the union boss' boots.

<a href="http://biggovernment.com/brjohnson/2010/02/17/toyota-and-the-union-backed-government-led-witch-hunt/" title="biggovernment.com" rel="nofollow">Eliminate the Competition</a> [biggovernment.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's all about the union-backed government lapdogs licking the union boss ' boots .
Eliminate the Competition [ biggovernment.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's all about the union-backed government lapdogs
licking the union boss' boots.
Eliminate the Competition [biggovernment.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251008</id>
	<title>This all story starts to look like swine flu</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266921960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sure there are bugs in the code. Any code has bugs. ANY car has bugs. I have the feeling that somebody is making a black PR campaign to create panic to humble Toyota.<br>Same was with swine flu - somebody wanted a panic to sell more medicines. There was also SARS several years before that.</p><p>How many people died or were injured because of the claimed Toyota software bugs? Give me a number.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sure there are bugs in the code .
Any code has bugs .
ANY car has bugs .
I have the feeling that somebody is making a black PR campaign to create panic to humble Toyota.Same was with swine flu - somebody wanted a panic to sell more medicines .
There was also SARS several years before that.How many people died or were injured because of the claimed Toyota software bugs ?
Give me a number .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sure there are bugs in the code.
Any code has bugs.
ANY car has bugs.
I have the feeling that somebody is making a black PR campaign to create panic to humble Toyota.Same was with swine flu - somebody wanted a panic to sell more medicines.
There was also SARS several years before that.How many people died or were injured because of the claimed Toyota software bugs?
Give me a number.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31252268</id>
	<title>It's time...</title>
	<author>GrahamCox</author>
	<datestamp>1266926940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>It's time:<br> <br>
a) for a global safety-critical standard for drive-by-wire software.<br>
b) for an open industry standard for interfacing for servicing, fault codes, etc, to end the scam of lock-in to specific manufacturers servicing tools and dealers.<br>
c) to open source it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's time : a ) for a global safety-critical standard for drive-by-wire software .
b ) for an open industry standard for interfacing for servicing , fault codes , etc , to end the scam of lock-in to specific manufacturers servicing tools and dealers .
c ) to open source it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's time: 
a) for a global safety-critical standard for drive-by-wire software.
b) for an open industry standard for interfacing for servicing, fault codes, etc, to end the scam of lock-in to specific manufacturers servicing tools and dealers.
c) to open source it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250698</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266920940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I never even know NHTSA existed.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I never even know NHTSA existed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I never even know NHTSA existed.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250576</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31254952</id>
	<title>Re:100 million lines? Sure, we will get right on i</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266942000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Tom Clancy posts on<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/.  Who knew?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Tom Clancy posts on / .
Who knew ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Tom Clancy posts on /.
Who knew?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251448</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31254816</id>
	<title>Re:This is the government, not an engineering firm</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266941040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The fed already has technical organizations that can handle cases such as this, <a href="http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/ffrdc/" title="nsf.gov" rel="nofollow">http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/ffrdc/</a> [nsf.gov]. Of course most of these can only do work for the DoD or DoE.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The fed already has technical organizations that can handle cases such as this , http : //www.nsf.gov/statistics/ffrdc/ [ nsf.gov ] .
Of course most of these can only do work for the DoD or DoE .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The fed already has technical organizations that can handle cases such as this, http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/ffrdc/ [nsf.gov].
Of course most of these can only do work for the DoD or DoE.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251170</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250558</id>
	<title>Welp</title>
	<author>Pojut</author>
	<datestamp>1266920520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Such is the cost of more complicated technology.  Although, I will admit, this problem seems awfully widespread for Toyota to have not caught this at some point in their QC/QA process.</p><p>I'm reminded of the "recall" speech in Fight Club...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Such is the cost of more complicated technology .
Although , I will admit , this problem seems awfully widespread for Toyota to have not caught this at some point in their QC/QA process.I 'm reminded of the " recall " speech in Fight Club.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Such is the cost of more complicated technology.
Although, I will admit, this problem seems awfully widespread for Toyota to have not caught this at some point in their QC/QA process.I'm reminded of the "recall" speech in Fight Club...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251266</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>eh2o</author>
	<datestamp>1266922740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Years of deregulation and resource starvation have strangulated our regulatory agencies to the point where they are unable to act.</p><p>Much of this based on Greenspan-style Libertarian philosophies that market forces can correct any problem including fraud and crime, a position which he himself has now renounced and we as a people have yet to heed.</p><p>Since the late 80s we have been riding on a giant ponzi scheme and its all coming crashing down right now.  And yet, nothing.  I expect things to get much worse.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Years of deregulation and resource starvation have strangulated our regulatory agencies to the point where they are unable to act.Much of this based on Greenspan-style Libertarian philosophies that market forces can correct any problem including fraud and crime , a position which he himself has now renounced and we as a people have yet to heed.Since the late 80s we have been riding on a giant ponzi scheme and its all coming crashing down right now .
And yet , nothing .
I expect things to get much worse .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Years of deregulation and resource starvation have strangulated our regulatory agencies to the point where they are unable to act.Much of this based on Greenspan-style Libertarian philosophies that market forces can correct any problem including fraud and crime, a position which he himself has now renounced and we as a people have yet to heed.Since the late 80s we have been riding on a giant ponzi scheme and its all coming crashing down right now.
And yet, nothing.
I expect things to get much worse.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250576</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31288514</id>
	<title>Re:It's time...</title>
	<author>ProgramErgoSum</author>
	<datestamp>1267212660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Some part is open sourced already. <a href="http://www.theoscarproject.org/index.php?option=com\_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=6&amp;Itemid=18" title="theoscarproject.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.theoscarproject.org/index.php?option=com\_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=6&amp;Itemid=18</a> [theoscarproject.org].The OSCar. An OSCar has already debuted in Geneva road show.<a href="http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505\_3-10193838-16.html/" title="cnet.com" rel="nofollow">http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505\_3-10193838-16.html/</a> [cnet.com]</htmltext>
<tokenext>Some part is open sourced already .
http : //www.theoscarproject.org/index.php ? option = com \ _content&amp;task = view&amp;id = 6&amp;Itemid = 18 [ theoscarproject.org ] .The OSCar .
An OSCar has already debuted in Geneva road show.http : //news.cnet.com/8301-13505 \ _3-10193838-16.html/ [ cnet.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Some part is open sourced already.
http://www.theoscarproject.org/index.php?option=com\_content&amp;task=view&amp;id=6&amp;Itemid=18 [theoscarproject.org].The OSCar.
An OSCar has already debuted in Geneva road show.http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505\_3-10193838-16.html/ [cnet.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31252268</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250794</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266921180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>If the statement in the article is true then this country is in even worse shape than I thought.  It seems like rarely a handful of months can go by without the realization that yet another Federal department is completely incompetent.  How in the hell does the NHTSA even do their job?!  They are supposed to ensure that vehicles are safe but they don't even have the staff to do that.</p><p>What the hell is wrong with our country?</p></div><p>I can only assume that a bunch of fucking retarded Eurotrash modded that funny.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If the statement in the article is true then this country is in even worse shape than I thought .
It seems like rarely a handful of months can go by without the realization that yet another Federal department is completely incompetent .
How in the hell does the NHTSA even do their job ? !
They are supposed to ensure that vehicles are safe but they do n't even have the staff to do that.What the hell is wrong with our country ? I can only assume that a bunch of fucking retarded Eurotrash modded that funny .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the statement in the article is true then this country is in even worse shape than I thought.
It seems like rarely a handful of months can go by without the realization that yet another Federal department is completely incompetent.
How in the hell does the NHTSA even do their job?!
They are supposed to ensure that vehicles are safe but they don't even have the staff to do that.What the hell is wrong with our country?I can only assume that a bunch of fucking retarded Eurotrash modded that funny.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250576</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31253766</id>
	<title>Re:This is the government, not an engineering firm</title>
	<author>rahvin112</author>
	<datestamp>1266934080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why not simply require that any software in an automobile be OSS (not FOSS). In fact that requirement should seem to be an extension of mechanic laws that required car makers to provide parts and knowledge to service vehicles outside dealerships. All software in such a critical item should be OSS so it can be reviewed for errors and be reprogrammed by mechanics who wish to offer such services.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why not simply require that any software in an automobile be OSS ( not FOSS ) .
In fact that requirement should seem to be an extension of mechanic laws that required car makers to provide parts and knowledge to service vehicles outside dealerships .
All software in such a critical item should be OSS so it can be reviewed for errors and be reprogrammed by mechanics who wish to offer such services .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why not simply require that any software in an automobile be OSS (not FOSS).
In fact that requirement should seem to be an extension of mechanic laws that required car makers to provide parts and knowledge to service vehicles outside dealerships.
All software in such a critical item should be OSS so it can be reviewed for errors and be reprogrammed by mechanics who wish to offer such services.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251170</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31254730</id>
	<title>Re:Computer Engineers needed</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266940440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The vast majority of EE programs require C/C++ classes, along with Assembly and microcomputer systems.  Electrical engineering is much more broad that computer engineering, but the base is still there.  I'm a recent graduate with an EE degree doing embedded Linux hardware and software development.  The foundation in microcontrollers allowed me to get into this field, and my employer specifically preferred EEs to CEs due to the broader background EEs usually have (as in my boss can ask us to do analog or mixed signal circuits in addition to the embedded stuff).</p><p>You do bring up a good point, however, in that most people don't see the software that runs on the hardware in these embedded systems.  Not enough auditing is done on firmware, and I would argue that there needs to be much more oversight in this area.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The vast majority of EE programs require C/C + + classes , along with Assembly and microcomputer systems .
Electrical engineering is much more broad that computer engineering , but the base is still there .
I 'm a recent graduate with an EE degree doing embedded Linux hardware and software development .
The foundation in microcontrollers allowed me to get into this field , and my employer specifically preferred EEs to CEs due to the broader background EEs usually have ( as in my boss can ask us to do analog or mixed signal circuits in addition to the embedded stuff ) .You do bring up a good point , however , in that most people do n't see the software that runs on the hardware in these embedded systems .
Not enough auditing is done on firmware , and I would argue that there needs to be much more oversight in this area .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The vast majority of EE programs require C/C++ classes, along with Assembly and microcomputer systems.
Electrical engineering is much more broad that computer engineering, but the base is still there.
I'm a recent graduate with an EE degree doing embedded Linux hardware and software development.
The foundation in microcontrollers allowed me to get into this field, and my employer specifically preferred EEs to CEs due to the broader background EEs usually have (as in my boss can ask us to do analog or mixed signal circuits in addition to the embedded stuff).You do bring up a good point, however, in that most people don't see the software that runs on the hardware in these embedded systems.
Not enough auditing is done on firmware, and I would argue that there needs to be much more oversight in this area.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250588</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251650</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>gangien</author>
	<datestamp>1266924180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Right everyone believes that?  maybe they say that, few really believe that.  Although  support is growing.  How would someone like Obama have gotten elected if that were remotely true?  And with the fervor he did?</p><p><i>Just remember that the only thing to stand up to a big business nowadays is big government, and the goal of any big business is to convince everyone that a small government can watch over big business just like a big government can.</i></p><p>completely wrong.  This kind of proves my point above, because you don't understand what smaller government means.  Businesses are not the problem themselves.  the problems come from big business in bed with big government.  Take this toyota thing.  Do you think toyota is gonna make money off of this?  no, they'll lose money.  They do it enough, they'll be out of business.  And look at what the government says in this case: they don't have software engineers to do this?  great success of government.  But if it wasn't for the fact, that government was already in there, there would be more competition from companies trying to analyze the cars.  This might have been avoided all together.  Maybe not, cus shit does happen, there is no perfect system.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Right everyone believes that ?
maybe they say that , few really believe that .
Although support is growing .
How would someone like Obama have gotten elected if that were remotely true ?
And with the fervor he did ? Just remember that the only thing to stand up to a big business nowadays is big government , and the goal of any big business is to convince everyone that a small government can watch over big business just like a big government can.completely wrong .
This kind of proves my point above , because you do n't understand what smaller government means .
Businesses are not the problem themselves .
the problems come from big business in bed with big government .
Take this toyota thing .
Do you think toyota is gon na make money off of this ?
no , they 'll lose money .
They do it enough , they 'll be out of business .
And look at what the government says in this case : they do n't have software engineers to do this ?
great success of government .
But if it was n't for the fact , that government was already in there , there would be more competition from companies trying to analyze the cars .
This might have been avoided all together .
Maybe not , cus shit does happen , there is no perfect system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Right everyone believes that?
maybe they say that, few really believe that.
Although  support is growing.
How would someone like Obama have gotten elected if that were remotely true?
And with the fervor he did?Just remember that the only thing to stand up to a big business nowadays is big government, and the goal of any big business is to convince everyone that a small government can watch over big business just like a big government can.completely wrong.
This kind of proves my point above, because you don't understand what smaller government means.
Businesses are not the problem themselves.
the problems come from big business in bed with big government.
Take this toyota thing.
Do you think toyota is gonna make money off of this?
no, they'll lose money.
They do it enough, they'll be out of business.
And look at what the government says in this case: they don't have software engineers to do this?
great success of government.
But if it wasn't for the fact, that government was already in there, there would be more competition from companies trying to analyze the cars.
This might have been avoided all together.
Maybe not, cus shit does happen, there is no perfect system.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250754</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251170</id>
	<title>This is the government, not an engineering firm</title>
	<author>rm999</author>
	<datestamp>1266922440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I totally disagree: the NHTSA shouldn't hire engineers. NHTSA should not do the job of Toyota's engineers and testers; they were created to set policy and propose safety laws. The NHTSA should hire economists, policy makers, and maybe some scientists. But the job of ensuring the nuts and bolts of a car are safe should fall on the car-maker, with strict repercussions if they fail.</p><p>My biggest problem with all this is what people on Slashdot should already know: looking through and understanding millions of lines of code would take an engineer a few lifetimes - how many engineers are we proposing NHTSA hires? They could learn Toyota's software system, but then what about Ford cars? Or BMW? All for a government organization with 600 employees...</p><p>In cases like this, NHTSA should force Toyota to hire a third party (objective) consultant to create a technical report. Maybe a small team of engineers could remain on staff to read and understand those reports.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I totally disagree : the NHTSA should n't hire engineers .
NHTSA should not do the job of Toyota 's engineers and testers ; they were created to set policy and propose safety laws .
The NHTSA should hire economists , policy makers , and maybe some scientists .
But the job of ensuring the nuts and bolts of a car are safe should fall on the car-maker , with strict repercussions if they fail.My biggest problem with all this is what people on Slashdot should already know : looking through and understanding millions of lines of code would take an engineer a few lifetimes - how many engineers are we proposing NHTSA hires ?
They could learn Toyota 's software system , but then what about Ford cars ?
Or BMW ?
All for a government organization with 600 employees...In cases like this , NHTSA should force Toyota to hire a third party ( objective ) consultant to create a technical report .
Maybe a small team of engineers could remain on staff to read and understand those reports .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I totally disagree: the NHTSA shouldn't hire engineers.
NHTSA should not do the job of Toyota's engineers and testers; they were created to set policy and propose safety laws.
The NHTSA should hire economists, policy makers, and maybe some scientists.
But the job of ensuring the nuts and bolts of a car are safe should fall on the car-maker, with strict repercussions if they fail.My biggest problem with all this is what people on Slashdot should already know: looking through and understanding millions of lines of code would take an engineer a few lifetimes - how many engineers are we proposing NHTSA hires?
They could learn Toyota's software system, but then what about Ford cars?
Or BMW?
All for a government organization with 600 employees...In cases like this, NHTSA should force Toyota to hire a third party (objective) consultant to create a technical report.
Maybe a small team of engineers could remain on staff to read and understand those reports.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31254518</id>
	<title>NHTSA - 635 Employees, $800 Million budget</title>
	<author>skeptictank</author>
	<datestamp>1266938940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The lion share of budget in most organizations goes to make payroll. The NHTSA's budget comes to $1.26 Million per employee. That ratio seems a little high, even for a government agency.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The lion share of budget in most organizations goes to make payroll .
The NHTSA 's budget comes to $ 1.26 Million per employee .
That ratio seems a little high , even for a government agency .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The lion share of budget in most organizations goes to make payroll.
The NHTSA's budget comes to $1.26 Million per employee.
That ratio seems a little high, even for a government agency.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251218</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>SilentStaid</author>
	<datestamp>1266922620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I don't have any points, but I'd just like to go on record and say that this should be modded Insightful. Not funny.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't have any points , but I 'd just like to go on record and say that this should be modded Insightful .
Not funny .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't have any points, but I'd just like to go on record and say that this should be modded Insightful.
Not funny.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250576</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250802</id>
	<title>100 million lines of code?</title>
	<author>understress</author>
	<datestamp>1266921240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I didn't RTFA, but I've seen the comment about a modern car having something like 100 million lines of code in articles before.  Now, I am not in any way qualified to say that number is to large or to small.  But as an embedded systems software developer, that seems like an INSANE amount of code.  I'm the manager of the engineering department at my employer (small manufacturer in US) and I have very strict requirements for comments in code.  Even if you count the lines of comments in our code (probably around 50\% of the file content), our largest project to date is around 35,000 lines of C code.  Now I realize that since we are targeting smaller 8 bit MCU's with limited resources, this limits what we can do.</p><p>But still, 100 MILLION lines of code?  Does anyone have any input on whether or not this is accurate?  Or do automotive software engineers like to comment their code more than anyone else?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I did n't RTFA , but I 've seen the comment about a modern car having something like 100 million lines of code in articles before .
Now , I am not in any way qualified to say that number is to large or to small .
But as an embedded systems software developer , that seems like an INSANE amount of code .
I 'm the manager of the engineering department at my employer ( small manufacturer in US ) and I have very strict requirements for comments in code .
Even if you count the lines of comments in our code ( probably around 50 \ % of the file content ) , our largest project to date is around 35,000 lines of C code .
Now I realize that since we are targeting smaller 8 bit MCU 's with limited resources , this limits what we can do.But still , 100 MILLION lines of code ?
Does anyone have any input on whether or not this is accurate ?
Or do automotive software engineers like to comment their code more than anyone else ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I didn't RTFA, but I've seen the comment about a modern car having something like 100 million lines of code in articles before.
Now, I am not in any way qualified to say that number is to large or to small.
But as an embedded systems software developer, that seems like an INSANE amount of code.
I'm the manager of the engineering department at my employer (small manufacturer in US) and I have very strict requirements for comments in code.
Even if you count the lines of comments in our code (probably around 50\% of the file content), our largest project to date is around 35,000 lines of C code.
Now I realize that since we are targeting smaller 8 bit MCU's with limited resources, this limits what we can do.But still, 100 MILLION lines of code?
Does anyone have any input on whether or not this is accurate?
Or do automotive software engineers like to comment their code more than anyone else?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31288442</id>
	<title>Re:This is the government, not an engineering firm</title>
	<author>BitZtream</author>
	<datestamp>1267212420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The NTSB seems to be able to pull it off for aircraft accidents and issues, since there are constantly more drivers on the road than people in the air, I really cant' see how they can justify not doing it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The NTSB seems to be able to pull it off for aircraft accidents and issues , since there are constantly more drivers on the road than people in the air , I really cant ' see how they can justify not doing it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The NTSB seems to be able to pull it off for aircraft accidents and issues, since there are constantly more drivers on the road than people in the air, I really cant' see how they can justify not doing it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251170</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251272</id>
	<title>Re:100 million lines? Sure, we will get right on i</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266922740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Or, instead of what you said, we could just ask NHTSA to get with DOD and find out how they manage software (hint: IEEE 12207 or, if you're old school, MIL-STD-498).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Or , instead of what you said , we could just ask NHTSA to get with DOD and find out how they manage software ( hint : IEEE 12207 or , if you 're old school , MIL-STD-498 ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or, instead of what you said, we could just ask NHTSA to get with DOD and find out how they manage software (hint: IEEE 12207 or, if you're old school, MIL-STD-498).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250674</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31252516</id>
	<title>Government Should NOT Employ Expert in Everything</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266928140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You mean our government doesn't employ a full time expert in every conceivable and/or cutting-edge technology involved in every product, process and service? This is outrageous!  This is the way it should be. Contract with an outside independent consulting firm.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You mean our government does n't employ a full time expert in every conceivable and/or cutting-edge technology involved in every product , process and service ?
This is outrageous !
This is the way it should be .
Contract with an outside independent consulting firm .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You mean our government doesn't employ a full time expert in every conceivable and/or cutting-edge technology involved in every product, process and service?
This is outrageous!
This is the way it should be.
Contract with an outside independent consulting firm.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251432</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>roman\_mir</author>
	<datestamp>1266923340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Just remember that the only thing to stand up to a big business nowadays is big government, and the goal of any big business is to convince everyone that a small government can watch over big business just like a big government can.</p></div><p> - I mean, really?  Wake up, is there anyone home? The government that you like so much consists of a system of people, who like to remain in power.  To do so takes money.  Lots and lots of money.  Where do you get the money?  It's the system - the bribes real and implied etc.</p><p>Government today is in it with the large corporations.  They are one government.  In Canada it is a bit different from the US but the principles are the same.   Big money wants more money, to do so it needs to corrupt the government and it works on that day and night.   Big government wants to stay in power, to do so it needs contributions and various other things money can buy, they do this day and night.</p><p>It's like that Alien vs Predator: no matter which one of them wins, who do you think is going to lose?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Just remember that the only thing to stand up to a big business nowadays is big government , and the goal of any big business is to convince everyone that a small government can watch over big business just like a big government can .
- I mean , really ?
Wake up , is there anyone home ?
The government that you like so much consists of a system of people , who like to remain in power .
To do so takes money .
Lots and lots of money .
Where do you get the money ?
It 's the system - the bribes real and implied etc.Government today is in it with the large corporations .
They are one government .
In Canada it is a bit different from the US but the principles are the same .
Big money wants more money , to do so it needs to corrupt the government and it works on that day and night .
Big government wants to stay in power , to do so it needs contributions and various other things money can buy , they do this day and night.It 's like that Alien vs Predator : no matter which one of them wins , who do you think is going to lose ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just remember that the only thing to stand up to a big business nowadays is big government, and the goal of any big business is to convince everyone that a small government can watch over big business just like a big government can.
- I mean, really?
Wake up, is there anyone home?
The government that you like so much consists of a system of people, who like to remain in power.
To do so takes money.
Lots and lots of money.
Where do you get the money?
It's the system - the bribes real and implied etc.Government today is in it with the large corporations.
They are one government.
In Canada it is a bit different from the US but the principles are the same.
Big money wants more money, to do so it needs to corrupt the government and it works on that day and night.
Big government wants to stay in power, to do so it needs contributions and various other things money can buy, they do this day and night.It's like that Alien vs Predator: no matter which one of them wins, who do you think is going to lose?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250754</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250746</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>happy\_place</author>
	<datestamp>1266921060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Q. What's wrong with our country?

A. The price to make you perfectly safe, six times over, is prohibitively expensive.

This seems like a stupid approach to the issue. I mean, just how many engineers need to be hired to make you feel safe? And exactly how do they test all 200 million lines of code? If Toyota's engineers missed something like this, do you honestly think that the government is going to magically find it? It's not like Toyota engineers did this sort of thing on purpose. They made a mistake. It's now costing lives. That's killing Toyota too.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Q. What 's wrong with our country ?
A. The price to make you perfectly safe , six times over , is prohibitively expensive .
This seems like a stupid approach to the issue .
I mean , just how many engineers need to be hired to make you feel safe ?
And exactly how do they test all 200 million lines of code ?
If Toyota 's engineers missed something like this , do you honestly think that the government is going to magically find it ?
It 's not like Toyota engineers did this sort of thing on purpose .
They made a mistake .
It 's now costing lives .
That 's killing Toyota too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Q. What's wrong with our country?
A. The price to make you perfectly safe, six times over, is prohibitively expensive.
This seems like a stupid approach to the issue.
I mean, just how many engineers need to be hired to make you feel safe?
And exactly how do they test all 200 million lines of code?
If Toyota's engineers missed something like this, do you honestly think that the government is going to magically find it?
It's not like Toyota engineers did this sort of thing on purpose.
They made a mistake.
It's now costing lives.
That's killing Toyota too.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250576</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250810</id>
	<title>100 microprocessors?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266921240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't believe it. In WHAT?</p><p>I can't come up with a list of 100 things in a car that it makes sense to have a microprocessor for.</p><p>Are they counting stuff like the radio, the gps, the dvd players in the seat backs?  None of that stuff has to do keeping the engine running, and doesn't need to be considered for safety purpouses.</p><p>Why would you need more than one computer to control the car anyway?  I guess you might want a seperate one to control the airbags in case the crash is caused by the main one failing, but other than that I don't see why you need more than one CPU to control the engine, check the brake fluid, tire pressure, etc.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't believe it .
In WHAT ? I ca n't come up with a list of 100 things in a car that it makes sense to have a microprocessor for.Are they counting stuff like the radio , the gps , the dvd players in the seat backs ?
None of that stuff has to do keeping the engine running , and does n't need to be considered for safety purpouses.Why would you need more than one computer to control the car anyway ?
I guess you might want a seperate one to control the airbags in case the crash is caused by the main one failing , but other than that I do n't see why you need more than one CPU to control the engine , check the brake fluid , tire pressure , etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't believe it.
In WHAT?I can't come up with a list of 100 things in a car that it makes sense to have a microprocessor for.Are they counting stuff like the radio, the gps, the dvd players in the seat backs?
None of that stuff has to do keeping the engine running, and doesn't need to be considered for safety purpouses.Why would you need more than one computer to control the car anyway?
I guess you might want a seperate one to control the airbags in case the crash is caused by the main one failing, but other than that I don't see why you need more than one CPU to control the engine, check the brake fluid, tire pressure, etc.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31270822</id>
	<title>Yet Another Fine Failure of Capitalism</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1267104780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is yet another fine example of capitalism.  Toyota did this to save money.  That's right boys and girls, a corporation using the market to get even more money.  If we had communism then this would not have happened.  COMMUNISM FTW, CAPITALISM IS FOR FUCKWARDS AND SHOULD BE ELIMINATED LIKE ANY OTHER DISEASE!!!!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is yet another fine example of capitalism .
Toyota did this to save money .
That 's right boys and girls , a corporation using the market to get even more money .
If we had communism then this would not have happened .
COMMUNISM FTW , CAPITALISM IS FOR FUCKWARDS AND SHOULD BE ELIMINATED LIKE ANY OTHER DISEASE ! ! !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is yet another fine example of capitalism.
Toyota did this to save money.
That's right boys and girls, a corporation using the market to get even more money.
If we had communism then this would not have happened.
COMMUNISM FTW, CAPITALISM IS FOR FUCKWARDS AND SHOULD BE ELIMINATED LIKE ANY OTHER DISEASE!!!
!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251976</id>
	<title>Re:100 million lines? Sure, we will get right on i</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266925500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Obviously, they are not using the right <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo\_Guidance\_Computer" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">computer</a> [wikipedia.org].</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Obviously , they are not using the right computer [ wikipedia.org ] .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Obviously, they are not using the right computer [wikipedia.org].</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250674</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250588</id>
	<title>Computer Engineers needed</title>
	<author>HalWasRight</author>
	<datestamp>1266920580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>They don't need Electrial Engineers or Software Engineers. They need <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer\_engineering" title="wikipedia.org">Computer Engineers</a> [wikipedia.org], people who are trained to understand both sides of the hardware/software boundary.</htmltext>
<tokenext>They do n't need Electrial Engineers or Software Engineers .
They need Computer Engineers [ wikipedia.org ] , people who are trained to understand both sides of the hardware/software boundary .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They don't need Electrial Engineers or Software Engineers.
They need Computer Engineers [wikipedia.org], people who are trained to understand both sides of the hardware/software boundary.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251408</id>
	<title>A hundred million lines of code???</title>
	<author>Joce640k</author>
	<datestamp>1266923280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's written in ADA then...?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's written in ADA then... ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's written in ADA then...?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31255498</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266946440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>If the statement in the article is true then this country is in even worse shape than I thought. It seems like rarely a handful of months can go by without the realization that yet another Federal department is completely incompetent. How in the hell does the NHTSA even do their job?! They are supposed to ensure that vehicles are safe but they don't even have the staff to do that.<br></i></p><p>Well, their job isn't to PERSONALLY ensure the vehicles are safe, but to regulate the industry. You know, come up with rules like, "don't let your vehicle do a Christine on the interstate" and occasionally force the automakers to do recalls when their products explode on contact or otherwise kill too often.</p><p><i><br>What the hell is wrong with our country?<br></i></p><p>It's story time kids!</p><p>Okay, a bunch of morons got Bush elected by the Supreme Court, then those same morons plus a few of their friends "re"elected him. While he was stuffing his unqualified cronies into every agency and the judiciary, he cut taxes for a whole bunch of rich people while raping the poor and gutting federal agencies' funding like the FDA, CPSC, FEMA, EPA, SEC, and the NHTSA. They were bad for business, you see! Now that sort of shit happens regardless who's in power, but if you want to see the biggest slime-ball administration, there's no need to look any further than the 8 years under Dubya.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If the statement in the article is true then this country is in even worse shape than I thought .
It seems like rarely a handful of months can go by without the realization that yet another Federal department is completely incompetent .
How in the hell does the NHTSA even do their job ? !
They are supposed to ensure that vehicles are safe but they do n't even have the staff to do that.Well , their job is n't to PERSONALLY ensure the vehicles are safe , but to regulate the industry .
You know , come up with rules like , " do n't let your vehicle do a Christine on the interstate " and occasionally force the automakers to do recalls when their products explode on contact or otherwise kill too often.What the hell is wrong with our country ? It 's story time kids ! Okay , a bunch of morons got Bush elected by the Supreme Court , then those same morons plus a few of their friends " re " elected him .
While he was stuffing his unqualified cronies into every agency and the judiciary , he cut taxes for a whole bunch of rich people while raping the poor and gutting federal agencies ' funding like the FDA , CPSC , FEMA , EPA , SEC , and the NHTSA .
They were bad for business , you see !
Now that sort of shit happens regardless who 's in power , but if you want to see the biggest slime-ball administration , there 's no need to look any further than the 8 years under Dubya .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the statement in the article is true then this country is in even worse shape than I thought.
It seems like rarely a handful of months can go by without the realization that yet another Federal department is completely incompetent.
How in the hell does the NHTSA even do their job?!
They are supposed to ensure that vehicles are safe but they don't even have the staff to do that.Well, their job isn't to PERSONALLY ensure the vehicles are safe, but to regulate the industry.
You know, come up with rules like, "don't let your vehicle do a Christine on the interstate" and occasionally force the automakers to do recalls when their products explode on contact or otherwise kill too often.What the hell is wrong with our country?It's story time kids!Okay, a bunch of morons got Bush elected by the Supreme Court, then those same morons plus a few of their friends "re"elected him.
While he was stuffing his unqualified cronies into every agency and the judiciary, he cut taxes for a whole bunch of rich people while raping the poor and gutting federal agencies' funding like the FDA, CPSC, FEMA, EPA, SEC, and the NHTSA.
They were bad for business, you see!
Now that sort of shit happens regardless who's in power, but if you want to see the biggest slime-ball administration, there's no need to look any further than the 8 years under Dubya.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250576</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31254434</id>
	<title>Recalls happen 100s of times per year</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266938520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <a href="http://dogandlemon.com/site/japanese-vehicle-recalls/?make=" title="dogandlemon.com" rel="nofollow">This list</a> [dogandlemon.com] only covers models made in Japan, the NHTSA has huge lists of US manufacturer recalls and  <a href="http://www.theaa.com/allaboutcars/recalls/index.jsp" title="theaa.com" rel="nofollow">the AA europe</a> [theaa.com] has lists of European manufacturers. As someone who works with car recalls and these lists as a matter of course I must warn that these lists are usually updated with new recalls about 5 years after they happen so for the average number of recalls that happen per year you need to look at 2005 or before.<br>My point is that though the recent Toyota debacle might have illustrated the shortcomings of the NHTSA's recall evaluation capabilities this is a problem that has been around for years and the massive media attention this particular recall is getting seems at best somewhat hypocritical, and at worst a deliberate smear campaign against Toyota and by extension Japan's entire automotive industry.</p><p>For additional hilarity see if you can find the rolls royce who's doors would explode when you hit the window switch, or the large number of models who had problems with seat warmers malfunctioning and catching fire.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This list [ dogandlemon.com ] only covers models made in Japan , the NHTSA has huge lists of US manufacturer recalls and the AA europe [ theaa.com ] has lists of European manufacturers .
As someone who works with car recalls and these lists as a matter of course I must warn that these lists are usually updated with new recalls about 5 years after they happen so for the average number of recalls that happen per year you need to look at 2005 or before.My point is that though the recent Toyota debacle might have illustrated the shortcomings of the NHTSA 's recall evaluation capabilities this is a problem that has been around for years and the massive media attention this particular recall is getting seems at best somewhat hypocritical , and at worst a deliberate smear campaign against Toyota and by extension Japan 's entire automotive industry.For additional hilarity see if you can find the rolls royce who 's doors would explode when you hit the window switch , or the large number of models who had problems with seat warmers malfunctioning and catching fire .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> This list [dogandlemon.com] only covers models made in Japan, the NHTSA has huge lists of US manufacturer recalls and  the AA europe [theaa.com] has lists of European manufacturers.
As someone who works with car recalls and these lists as a matter of course I must warn that these lists are usually updated with new recalls about 5 years after they happen so for the average number of recalls that happen per year you need to look at 2005 or before.My point is that though the recent Toyota debacle might have illustrated the shortcomings of the NHTSA's recall evaluation capabilities this is a problem that has been around for years and the massive media attention this particular recall is getting seems at best somewhat hypocritical, and at worst a deliberate smear campaign against Toyota and by extension Japan's entire automotive industry.For additional hilarity see if you can find the rolls royce who's doors would explode when you hit the window switch, or the large number of models who had problems with seat warmers malfunctioning and catching fire.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251382</id>
	<title>Re:100 million lines of code?</title>
	<author>0100010001010011</author>
	<datestamp>1266923160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Most of that code is auto generated. Except for some low level stuff, nothing is written by hand in assembly or C. It's all auto coded from some sort of control toolbox. Most likely Matlab/Simulink.</p><p>Sure enough <a href="http://www.mathworks.com/products/matlab/userstories.html?file=2340&amp;title=The\%20MathWorks\%20Tools\%20Help\%20Toyota\%20Design\%20for\%20the\%20Future" title="mathworks.com">this is one of the first hits</a> [mathworks.com] on Google.</p><p>Writing that many lines of code would be damn near impossible in the relatively short development cycle.</p><p>Even a simple PID controller could take up a few dozen lines of code even though on screen it's simply represented by 3-4 blocks.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Most of that code is auto generated .
Except for some low level stuff , nothing is written by hand in assembly or C. It 's all auto coded from some sort of control toolbox .
Most likely Matlab/Simulink.Sure enough this is one of the first hits [ mathworks.com ] on Google.Writing that many lines of code would be damn near impossible in the relatively short development cycle.Even a simple PID controller could take up a few dozen lines of code even though on screen it 's simply represented by 3-4 blocks .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most of that code is auto generated.
Except for some low level stuff, nothing is written by hand in assembly or C. It's all auto coded from some sort of control toolbox.
Most likely Matlab/Simulink.Sure enough this is one of the first hits [mathworks.com] on Google.Writing that many lines of code would be damn near impossible in the relatively short development cycle.Even a simple PID controller could take up a few dozen lines of code even though on screen it's simply represented by 3-4 blocks.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250802</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31287742</id>
	<title>Re:Heads better roll</title>
	<author>BitZtream</author>
	<datestamp>1267210200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>We saw how well #1 worked in the banking industry</p></div></blockquote><p>It was working perfectly well until the government stepped in to 'save them' because they were 'too big to fail'.  Had they failed it would have worked perfectly, now instead, we pay several billion dollars and we'll do it all over again in another few years because they STILL aren't viable businesses they way they are being managed.  The loss is greater long term than had we just let them fail, got rid of them and the people involved and started over.  This has happened before you know.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>We saw how well # 1 worked in the banking industryIt was working perfectly well until the government stepped in to 'save them ' because they were 'too big to fail' .
Had they failed it would have worked perfectly , now instead , we pay several billion dollars and we 'll do it all over again in another few years because they STILL are n't viable businesses they way they are being managed .
The loss is greater long term than had we just let them fail , got rid of them and the people involved and started over .
This has happened before you know .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We saw how well #1 worked in the banking industryIt was working perfectly well until the government stepped in to 'save them' because they were 'too big to fail'.
Had they failed it would have worked perfectly, now instead, we pay several billion dollars and we'll do it all over again in another few years because they STILL aren't viable businesses they way they are being managed.
The loss is greater long term than had we just let them fail, got rid of them and the people involved and started over.
This has happened before you know.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251002</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31252670</id>
	<title>Re:Computer Engineers needed</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266928800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As a CprE Graduate who has worked in an embedded environment, desktop applications, and now... sharepoint... I can truely atest to the fact that the title doesn't mean squat. Sure, there are some subtle differences between programmer, analyst, architect, developer, code-monkey, and software/computer/electrical engineer. But it boils down to about 6 months of training on the job.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As a CprE Graduate who has worked in an embedded environment , desktop applications , and now... sharepoint... I can truely atest to the fact that the title does n't mean squat .
Sure , there are some subtle differences between programmer , analyst , architect , developer , code-monkey , and software/computer/electrical engineer .
But it boils down to about 6 months of training on the job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a CprE Graduate who has worked in an embedded environment, desktop applications, and now... sharepoint... I can truely atest to the fact that the title doesn't mean squat.
Sure, there are some subtle differences between programmer, analyst, architect, developer, code-monkey, and software/computer/electrical engineer.
But it boils down to about 6 months of training on the job.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250732</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31255662</id>
	<title>Re:100 million lines? Sure, we will get right on i</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266948060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're wrong, just so wrong. My car doesn't have a navigation system!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're wrong , just so wrong .
My car does n't have a navigation system !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're wrong, just so wrong.
My car doesn't have a navigation system!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251448</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251234</id>
	<title>Re:100 million lines of code?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266922680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is bull.  There is no way a luxury car has 100 million lines of code in it, i don't even believe it executes 100 million lines of code for the entire life of the car.  I'm a software developer and have been writing code for quite some time now and the metric my company uses is 4 lines of code per hour.  Which seem like a snails pace to write code, but that metric takes into account, meeting, sick days, code reviews and every other distraction that keep you from coding.  So (and check my math) if you've got a team of 500 developers (which would be the biggest team I've ever heard of for one development effort), it would take 24 years to write 100 million lines of code.  Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is bull .
There is no way a luxury car has 100 million lines of code in it , i do n't even believe it executes 100 million lines of code for the entire life of the car .
I 'm a software developer and have been writing code for quite some time now and the metric my company uses is 4 lines of code per hour .
Which seem like a snails pace to write code , but that metric takes into account , meeting , sick days , code reviews and every other distraction that keep you from coding .
So ( and check my math ) if you 've got a team of 500 developers ( which would be the biggest team I 've ever heard of for one development effort ) , it would take 24 years to write 100 million lines of code .
Feel free to correct me if I 'm wrong .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is bull.
There is no way a luxury car has 100 million lines of code in it, i don't even believe it executes 100 million lines of code for the entire life of the car.
I'm a software developer and have been writing code for quite some time now and the metric my company uses is 4 lines of code per hour.
Which seem like a snails pace to write code, but that metric takes into account, meeting, sick days, code reviews and every other distraction that keep you from coding.
So (and check my math) if you've got a team of 500 developers (which would be the biggest team I've ever heard of for one development effort), it would take 24 years to write 100 million lines of code.
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250802</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250866</id>
	<title>Sounds like the government needs to be updated</title>
	<author>erroneus</author>
	<datestamp>1266921480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Seriously.  How did they not see this coming.  They have been hearing cases about secret codes and OBD standards and the like for quite some time now.  The fact that cars are running with the added use and assistance of digital computational systems is well known.  If they are not equipped to do testing for safety purposes, they are simply not equipped to do their jobs.  And I'm afraid to ask about air vehicle safety testing now...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Seriously .
How did they not see this coming .
They have been hearing cases about secret codes and OBD standards and the like for quite some time now .
The fact that cars are running with the added use and assistance of digital computational systems is well known .
If they are not equipped to do testing for safety purposes , they are simply not equipped to do their jobs .
And I 'm afraid to ask about air vehicle safety testing now.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seriously.
How did they not see this coming.
They have been hearing cases about secret codes and OBD standards and the like for quite some time now.
The fact that cars are running with the added use and assistance of digital computational systems is well known.
If they are not equipped to do testing for safety purposes, they are simply not equipped to do their jobs.
And I'm afraid to ask about air vehicle safety testing now...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31256058</id>
	<title>Re:100 million lines? Sure, we will get right on i</title>
	<author>poached</author>
	<datestamp>1266951960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>ONE HUNDRED MILLION LINES?  Excuse me, but that seems excessive.  At the previous job I worked on a CAD software suite for windows for a company that rhymes with "desk" and that was only 12 million lines of code.  Even if counting the real-time OS, which shouldn't need to have any UI or that much other stuff, I think you'd be far off from 100 million.  Sure the operations are complex but 100 million and you are talking about a dev team that rivals the army that Microsoft has and that's for each model on the market.  Sorry, I don't think that is realistic.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>ONE HUNDRED MILLION LINES ?
Excuse me , but that seems excessive .
At the previous job I worked on a CAD software suite for windows for a company that rhymes with " desk " and that was only 12 million lines of code .
Even if counting the real-time OS , which should n't need to have any UI or that much other stuff , I think you 'd be far off from 100 million .
Sure the operations are complex but 100 million and you are talking about a dev team that rivals the army that Microsoft has and that 's for each model on the market .
Sorry , I do n't think that is realistic .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>ONE HUNDRED MILLION LINES?
Excuse me, but that seems excessive.
At the previous job I worked on a CAD software suite for windows for a company that rhymes with "desk" and that was only 12 million lines of code.
Even if counting the real-time OS, which shouldn't need to have any UI or that much other stuff, I think you'd be far off from 100 million.
Sure the operations are complex but 100 million and you are talking about a dev team that rivals the army that Microsoft has and that's for each model on the market.
Sorry, I don't think that is realistic.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251448</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250854</id>
	<title>Re:100 million lines? Sure, we will get right on i</title>
	<author>rotide</author>
	<datestamp>1266921420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, if you don't know what you're asking for, how would you ever know if the answer they give you is even close to reality?</p><p>"Hey, I need you to investigate x, I have no idea how to even analyze x, but I trust you will investigate it exhaustively!"</p><p>"Sure, we fully investigated x and it's fine."</p><p>"Oh, ok, we'll take your word for it, thanks!"</p><p>You have to at least be able to understand what's going on to a certain degree before you can tell someone to fully investigate it \_and\_ then trust their results.</p><p>So yes, they should have a set of engineers who can read code well enough to know what is doing what and ask a company to exhaustively test it.</p><p>Finally, 100 million lines of code sounds like an awful lot of code for a throttle and/or braking system.  I have a feeling that number is bloated to include things like when to pop on the low fuel light or seatbelt warning sounds.  Pretty sure you can whittle that 100 million down at least 50 if not 95\% and figure out what code actually controls the systems being reported as an issue.</p><p>In short, yes, if you're going to be educated in the field of vehicle safety, you can't claim ignorance to the \_whole\_ command and control system that lies in the computers that have existed in cars for more than a decade.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , if you do n't know what you 're asking for , how would you ever know if the answer they give you is even close to reality ?
" Hey , I need you to investigate x , I have no idea how to even analyze x , but I trust you will investigate it exhaustively !
" " Sure , we fully investigated x and it 's fine .
" " Oh , ok , we 'll take your word for it , thanks !
" You have to at least be able to understand what 's going on to a certain degree before you can tell someone to fully investigate it \ _and \ _ then trust their results.So yes , they should have a set of engineers who can read code well enough to know what is doing what and ask a company to exhaustively test it.Finally , 100 million lines of code sounds like an awful lot of code for a throttle and/or braking system .
I have a feeling that number is bloated to include things like when to pop on the low fuel light or seatbelt warning sounds .
Pretty sure you can whittle that 100 million down at least 50 if not 95 \ % and figure out what code actually controls the systems being reported as an issue.In short , yes , if you 're going to be educated in the field of vehicle safety , you ca n't claim ignorance to the \ _whole \ _ command and control system that lies in the computers that have existed in cars for more than a decade .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, if you don't know what you're asking for, how would you ever know if the answer they give you is even close to reality?
"Hey, I need you to investigate x, I have no idea how to even analyze x, but I trust you will investigate it exhaustively!
""Sure, we fully investigated x and it's fine.
""Oh, ok, we'll take your word for it, thanks!
"You have to at least be able to understand what's going on to a certain degree before you can tell someone to fully investigate it \_and\_ then trust their results.So yes, they should have a set of engineers who can read code well enough to know what is doing what and ask a company to exhaustively test it.Finally, 100 million lines of code sounds like an awful lot of code for a throttle and/or braking system.
I have a feeling that number is bloated to include things like when to pop on the low fuel light or seatbelt warning sounds.
Pretty sure you can whittle that 100 million down at least 50 if not 95\% and figure out what code actually controls the systems being reported as an issue.In short, yes, if you're going to be educated in the field of vehicle safety, you can't claim ignorance to the \_whole\_ command and control system that lies in the computers that have existed in cars for more than a decade.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250674</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251258</id>
	<title>Re:100 million lines of code?</title>
	<author>mcgrew</author>
	<datestamp>1266922740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>I've seen the comment about a modern car having something like 100 million lines of code in articles before. Now, I am not in any way qualified to say that number is to large or to small. But as an embedded systems software developer, that seems like an INSANE amount of code.</i></p><p>Someone posted a link to <a href="http://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/advanced-cars/this-car-runs-on-code/0" title="ieee.org">this article</a> [ieee.org] that confirms it. I can't find the comment with the link; someone must have modded him down past my threshhold. But the article linked itself confirms that it is indeed an insane amount of code, insanely implimented.</p><blockquote><div><p>The avionics system in the F-22 Raptor, the current U.S. Air Force frontline jet fighter, consists of about 1.7 million lines of software code. The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, scheduled to become operational in 2010, will require about 5.7 million lines of code to operate its onboard systems. And Boeing's new 787 Dreamliner, scheduled to be delivered to customers in 2010, requires about 6.5 million lines of software code to operate its avionics and onboard support systems.</p><p>These are impressive amounts of software, yet if you bought a premium-class automobile recently, "it probably contains close to 100 million lines of software code," says Manfred Broy, a professor of informatics at Technical University, Munich, and a leading expert on software in cars. All that software executes on 70 to 100 microprocessor-based electronic control units (ECUs) networked throughout the body of your car.</p></div></blockquote><p>It gets worse.</p><blockquote><div><p>And unlike most commercial aircraft, which have strict firewalls between critical avionic systems and the in-flight entertainment systems, there is more commingling of information between the electronic systems used to operate the car and those for entertaining the driver and passengers. According to a Wharton Business School article entitled "Car Trouble: Should We Recall the U.S. Auto Industry?," a few years ago, <b>some Mercedes drivers found that their seats moved if they pushed a certain button; the problem was that the button was supposed to operate the navigation system.</b></p></div></blockquote></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've seen the comment about a modern car having something like 100 million lines of code in articles before .
Now , I am not in any way qualified to say that number is to large or to small .
But as an embedded systems software developer , that seems like an INSANE amount of code.Someone posted a link to this article [ ieee.org ] that confirms it .
I ca n't find the comment with the link ; someone must have modded him down past my threshhold .
But the article linked itself confirms that it is indeed an insane amount of code , insanely implimented.The avionics system in the F-22 Raptor , the current U.S. Air Force frontline jet fighter , consists of about 1.7 million lines of software code .
The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter , scheduled to become operational in 2010 , will require about 5.7 million lines of code to operate its onboard systems .
And Boeing 's new 787 Dreamliner , scheduled to be delivered to customers in 2010 , requires about 6.5 million lines of software code to operate its avionics and onboard support systems.These are impressive amounts of software , yet if you bought a premium-class automobile recently , " it probably contains close to 100 million lines of software code , " says Manfred Broy , a professor of informatics at Technical University , Munich , and a leading expert on software in cars .
All that software executes on 70 to 100 microprocessor-based electronic control units ( ECUs ) networked throughout the body of your car.It gets worse.And unlike most commercial aircraft , which have strict firewalls between critical avionic systems and the in-flight entertainment systems , there is more commingling of information between the electronic systems used to operate the car and those for entertaining the driver and passengers .
According to a Wharton Business School article entitled " Car Trouble : Should We Recall the U.S. Auto Industry ? , " a few years ago , some Mercedes drivers found that their seats moved if they pushed a certain button ; the problem was that the button was supposed to operate the navigation system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've seen the comment about a modern car having something like 100 million lines of code in articles before.
Now, I am not in any way qualified to say that number is to large or to small.
But as an embedded systems software developer, that seems like an INSANE amount of code.Someone posted a link to this article [ieee.org] that confirms it.
I can't find the comment with the link; someone must have modded him down past my threshhold.
But the article linked itself confirms that it is indeed an insane amount of code, insanely implimented.The avionics system in the F-22 Raptor, the current U.S. Air Force frontline jet fighter, consists of about 1.7 million lines of software code.
The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, scheduled to become operational in 2010, will require about 5.7 million lines of code to operate its onboard systems.
And Boeing's new 787 Dreamliner, scheduled to be delivered to customers in 2010, requires about 6.5 million lines of software code to operate its avionics and onboard support systems.These are impressive amounts of software, yet if you bought a premium-class automobile recently, "it probably contains close to 100 million lines of software code," says Manfred Broy, a professor of informatics at Technical University, Munich, and a leading expert on software in cars.
All that software executes on 70 to 100 microprocessor-based electronic control units (ECUs) networked throughout the body of your car.It gets worse.And unlike most commercial aircraft, which have strict firewalls between critical avionic systems and the in-flight entertainment systems, there is more commingling of information between the electronic systems used to operate the car and those for entertaining the driver and passengers.
According to a Wharton Business School article entitled "Car Trouble: Should We Recall the U.S. Auto Industry?," a few years ago, some Mercedes drivers found that their seats moved if they pushed a certain button; the problem was that the button was supposed to operate the navigation system.
	</sentencetext>
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<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250934</id>
	<title>Re:Computer Engineers needed</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266921720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In my experience, a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spork" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">spork</a> [wikipedia.org] is not superior to a fork or a spoon.  I've found the same tends to hold true across EE, SE, and CEs.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In my experience , a spork [ wikipedia.org ] is not superior to a fork or a spoon .
I 've found the same tends to hold true across EE , SE , and CEs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In my experience, a spork [wikipedia.org] is not superior to a fork or a spoon.
I've found the same tends to hold true across EE, SE, and CEs.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31250588</parent>
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<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251176</id>
	<title>Re:This all story starts to look like swine flu</title>
	<author>Sicily1918</author>
	<datestamp>1266922500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The deaths are something like 13 or so -- not an incredibly high amount, but there's evidence that suggests (and that's not strong enough a word) that Toyota's been aware of this since about 2002 and has actively tried to stop any and all probes, lobbied against safety changes, and made bogus recalls (e.g., the floor mats) in order to positively affect their bottom line.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The deaths are something like 13 or so -- not an incredibly high amount , but there 's evidence that suggests ( and that 's not strong enough a word ) that Toyota 's been aware of this since about 2002 and has actively tried to stop any and all probes , lobbied against safety changes , and made bogus recalls ( e.g. , the floor mats ) in order to positively affect their bottom line .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The deaths are something like 13 or so -- not an incredibly high amount, but there's evidence that suggests (and that's not strong enough a word) that Toyota's been aware of this since about 2002 and has actively tried to stop any and all probes, lobbied against safety changes, and made bogus recalls (e.g., the floor mats) in order to positively affect their bottom line.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_23_2022204.31251008</parent>
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