<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_02_22_1516242</id>
	<title>Health Insurance When Leaving the Corporate World?</title>
	<author>CmdrTaco</author>
	<datestamp>1266857040000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>An anonymous reader writes <i>"I've been working at a large company since I got out of college, so I didn't have to give much thought to getting my own healthcare plan. Now I'm thinking about leaving the corporate world and starting out on my own. I have a family now, so I need to make sure we're going to be covered should anything happen. Researching online turns up horror stories of people trying to get individual healthcare plans, or getting denied coverage on plans they thought they had. Does anyone else have experience going through this and what you've had to deal with, or am I making too big a deal of it?"</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>An anonymous reader writes " I 've been working at a large company since I got out of college , so I did n't have to give much thought to getting my own healthcare plan .
Now I 'm thinking about leaving the corporate world and starting out on my own .
I have a family now , so I need to make sure we 're going to be covered should anything happen .
Researching online turns up horror stories of people trying to get individual healthcare plans , or getting denied coverage on plans they thought they had .
Does anyone else have experience going through this and what you 've had to deal with , or am I making too big a deal of it ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>An anonymous reader writes "I've been working at a large company since I got out of college, so I didn't have to give much thought to getting my own healthcare plan.
Now I'm thinking about leaving the corporate world and starting out on my own.
I have a family now, so I need to make sure we're going to be covered should anything happen.
Researching online turns up horror stories of people trying to get individual healthcare plans, or getting denied coverage on plans they thought they had.
Does anyone else have experience going through this and what you've had to deal with, or am I making too big a deal of it?
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231006</id>
	<title>Leverage Groups</title>
	<author>cyberElvis</author>
	<datestamp>1266861960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Look into any kind of groups you have membership in especially professional associations.  For example IEEE members (I believe after a year of membership) can get group health insurance, although I have not looked into lately it it may no longer be the case.  Also organizations like AAA (yes the auto club) have discount prescription programs.  Basically look at any group you belong to see if they have leveraged the power of their membership base to negotiate rates with insurance companies.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Look into any kind of groups you have membership in especially professional associations .
For example IEEE members ( I believe after a year of membership ) can get group health insurance , although I have not looked into lately it it may no longer be the case .
Also organizations like AAA ( yes the auto club ) have discount prescription programs .
Basically look at any group you belong to see if they have leveraged the power of their membership base to negotiate rates with insurance companies .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Look into any kind of groups you have membership in especially professional associations.
For example IEEE members (I believe after a year of membership) can get group health insurance, although I have not looked into lately it it may no longer be the case.
Also organizations like AAA (yes the auto club) have discount prescription programs.
Basically look at any group you belong to see if they have leveraged the power of their membership base to negotiate rates with insurance companies.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31241060</id>
	<title>eh...</title>
	<author>cyn1c77</author>
	<datestamp>1266863340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> I have a family now, so I need to make sure we're going to be covered should anything happen.</p> </div><p>Then I highly suggest that your wife get a full-time job that qualifies for health care.  In addition, it will provide some income while your business starts up, or in the unfortunate event that it does not take off.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have a family now , so I need to make sure we 're going to be covered should anything happen .
Then I highly suggest that your wife get a full-time job that qualifies for health care .
In addition , it will provide some income while your business starts up , or in the unfortunate event that it does not take off .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> I have a family now, so I need to make sure we're going to be covered should anything happen.
Then I highly suggest that your wife get a full-time job that qualifies for health care.
In addition, it will provide some income while your business starts up, or in the unfortunate event that it does not take off.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31237424</id>
	<title>You guys \_really\_ need socialized health</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266838620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I sprained my ankle the other day really badly while crossing the road...didn't have to think twice, just went to the emergency room, x-ray, doctors visit, sure about a 1 hour wait because a couple of people in front of me were in waaaaay worse state...at the end, they even gave (read: \_gave\_) me a pair of crutches and said "if you can just bring them back when you're done that would be great"...nothing to sign.</p><p>I've lived in the U.S. before, and now I'm back home in Australia and it saddens me the worry and stress that the health system puts on my friends that are still over there.  If you get sick, you shouldn't have to think about how much it'll cost you to get well.</p><p>You get sick in Australia, someone helps you, period.  If you have money you can buy insurance that gives you perks like private rooms with cable and stuff like that, cosmetic dental and surgery cover (which isn't covered by the health system) and things like acupuncture and sports equipment (preventative stuff)...but your basic right to be treated if you're sick is protected for all.</p><p>Do the doctors make as much as in the U.S......probably not, but a resident at a hospital will make about $200kpa....a general practitioner about $280kpa....a consultant (specialist) about $500kpa-$700kpa...and highly specialised skills like surgery, anaethetist, rheumatology etc etc are $700kpa+ up to a few million a year...but seriously, how much money do you need?</p><p>And I don't know one single doctor that does it for the money, so it's not a big deal.  And because the system isn't geared towards money making, you end up with doctors that are there because they give a sh&amp;t, not because they want to make money.  Even plastic surgeons over here tend to do it for altruistic reasons, i.e. they do the boob jobs to fund cleft pallet surgery and stuff like that.</p><p>The most important thing America will do this century is socialize it's health system....or the biggest dis-service to it's citizens will be if it doesn't</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I sprained my ankle the other day really badly while crossing the road...did n't have to think twice , just went to the emergency room , x-ray , doctors visit , sure about a 1 hour wait because a couple of people in front of me were in waaaaay worse state...at the end , they even gave ( read : \ _gave \ _ ) me a pair of crutches and said " if you can just bring them back when you 're done that would be great " ...nothing to sign.I 've lived in the U.S. before , and now I 'm back home in Australia and it saddens me the worry and stress that the health system puts on my friends that are still over there .
If you get sick , you should n't have to think about how much it 'll cost you to get well.You get sick in Australia , someone helps you , period .
If you have money you can buy insurance that gives you perks like private rooms with cable and stuff like that , cosmetic dental and surgery cover ( which is n't covered by the health system ) and things like acupuncture and sports equipment ( preventative stuff ) ...but your basic right to be treated if you 're sick is protected for all.Do the doctors make as much as in the U.S......probably not , but a resident at a hospital will make about $ 200kpa....a general practitioner about $ 280kpa....a consultant ( specialist ) about $ 500kpa- $ 700kpa...and highly specialised skills like surgery , anaethetist , rheumatology etc etc are $ 700kpa + up to a few million a year...but seriously , how much money do you need ? And I do n't know one single doctor that does it for the money , so it 's not a big deal .
And because the system is n't geared towards money making , you end up with doctors that are there because they give a sh&amp;t , not because they want to make money .
Even plastic surgeons over here tend to do it for altruistic reasons , i.e .
they do the boob jobs to fund cleft pallet surgery and stuff like that.The most important thing America will do this century is socialize it 's health system....or the biggest dis-service to it 's citizens will be if it does n't</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I sprained my ankle the other day really badly while crossing the road...didn't have to think twice, just went to the emergency room, x-ray, doctors visit, sure about a 1 hour wait because a couple of people in front of me were in waaaaay worse state...at the end, they even gave (read: \_gave\_) me a pair of crutches and said "if you can just bring them back when you're done that would be great"...nothing to sign.I've lived in the U.S. before, and now I'm back home in Australia and it saddens me the worry and stress that the health system puts on my friends that are still over there.
If you get sick, you shouldn't have to think about how much it'll cost you to get well.You get sick in Australia, someone helps you, period.
If you have money you can buy insurance that gives you perks like private rooms with cable and stuff like that, cosmetic dental and surgery cover (which isn't covered by the health system) and things like acupuncture and sports equipment (preventative stuff)...but your basic right to be treated if you're sick is protected for all.Do the doctors make as much as in the U.S......probably not, but a resident at a hospital will make about $200kpa....a general practitioner about $280kpa....a consultant (specialist) about $500kpa-$700kpa...and highly specialised skills like surgery, anaethetist, rheumatology etc etc are $700kpa+ up to a few million a year...but seriously, how much money do you need?And I don't know one single doctor that does it for the money, so it's not a big deal.
And because the system isn't geared towards money making, you end up with doctors that are there because they give a sh&amp;t, not because they want to make money.
Even plastic surgeons over here tend to do it for altruistic reasons, i.e.
they do the boob jobs to fund cleft pallet surgery and stuff like that.The most important thing America will do this century is socialize it's health system....or the biggest dis-service to it's citizens will be if it doesn't</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231816</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266863940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>"Are you really that stupid? because you sound like it.<br><br>The magical health-care fairies are TAXES you idiot."<br><br>*whoooosh*<br><br>The point of that sarcastic and snarky remark was that claiming healthcare cost $100/month for a family of four was complete bullshit... BECAUSE OF TAXES.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" Are you really that stupid ?
because you sound like it.The magical health-care fairies are TAXES you idiot .
" * whoooosh * The point of that sarcastic and snarky remark was that claiming healthcare cost $ 100/month for a family of four was complete bullshit... BECAUSE OF TAXES .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Are you really that stupid?
because you sound like it.The magical health-care fairies are TAXES you idiot.
"*whoooosh*The point of that sarcastic and snarky remark was that claiming healthcare cost $100/month for a family of four was complete bullshit... BECAUSE OF TAXES.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231286</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31239070</id>
	<title>There is a solution</title>
	<author>Jerry Rivers</author>
	<datestamp>1266847320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Move closer to the Mexican border.  Health and dental care there is 1/3 of the cost and the quality of care is comparable if you ask around and get referrals.  This is why the city of Yuma, AZ triples in size every winter.  It's only 15 minutes from Mexico and cheap prescription drugs and health/dental care.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Move closer to the Mexican border .
Health and dental care there is 1/3 of the cost and the quality of care is comparable if you ask around and get referrals .
This is why the city of Yuma , AZ triples in size every winter .
It 's only 15 minutes from Mexico and cheap prescription drugs and health/dental care .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Move closer to the Mexican border.
Health and dental care there is 1/3 of the cost and the quality of care is comparable if you ask around and get referrals.
This is why the city of Yuma, AZ triples in size every winter.
It's only 15 minutes from Mexico and cheap prescription drugs and health/dental care.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231612</id>
	<title>Mod Parent Informative</title>
	<author>mpapet</author>
	<datestamp>1266863400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>$15000/year is the bare minimum.  By 'bare minimum'  I mean a plan with topline 'coverage' numbers that actually translates into additional money you don't have to spend on medical care AFTER the insurance company covers some care AND the time and effort required to not get a meaningful percentage of medical care costs shifted onto you anyway.</p><p>A year ago, I got into a freak accident where I stood the likely possibility of bleeding to death.  8 hours of emergency surgery, other terrible stuff.  I blew through the deductible in the first hour of surgery. ($2000)  That's what rainy day savings is for.  What followed though is actually worse.</p><p>-Hospital's bills were rejected by the Insurance company because they didn't call to notify the Insurance company. (While I was bleeding to death, the hospital was required to have called to get approval AND THEN started saving my life)  They were going to send all of the Hospital's bills to us.  And they will too.  I ONLY found out about this because I checked to see that the claims were getting processed.  If I didn't check, the insurance company would have closed the window on the possibility of getting the claim paid and then the entire invoice of the hospital's services would have come to me.</p><p>-Despite the paying the advertised 'maximum deductible' of $2000, there were additional costs that I had to pay.  How is that possible?  The insurance company categorizes medical expenses as they see fit.  So for any given bill, they can choose to cover costs as they see fit.  They satisfy their marketing claims and still passed another $2000 in stuff they wouldn't cover onto me.</p><p>I put as many hours into not getting screwed by the insurance company as I did in physical therapy.  This is how screwed up American health insurance really is and $15000/yr is the bare minimum.</p><p>I am mpapet and I approve this post.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>$ 15000/year is the bare minimum .
By 'bare minimum ' I mean a plan with topline 'coverage ' numbers that actually translates into additional money you do n't have to spend on medical care AFTER the insurance company covers some care AND the time and effort required to not get a meaningful percentage of medical care costs shifted onto you anyway.A year ago , I got into a freak accident where I stood the likely possibility of bleeding to death .
8 hours of emergency surgery , other terrible stuff .
I blew through the deductible in the first hour of surgery .
( $ 2000 ) That 's what rainy day savings is for .
What followed though is actually worse.-Hospital 's bills were rejected by the Insurance company because they did n't call to notify the Insurance company .
( While I was bleeding to death , the hospital was required to have called to get approval AND THEN started saving my life ) They were going to send all of the Hospital 's bills to us .
And they will too .
I ONLY found out about this because I checked to see that the claims were getting processed .
If I did n't check , the insurance company would have closed the window on the possibility of getting the claim paid and then the entire invoice of the hospital 's services would have come to me.-Despite the paying the advertised 'maximum deductible ' of $ 2000 , there were additional costs that I had to pay .
How is that possible ?
The insurance company categorizes medical expenses as they see fit .
So for any given bill , they can choose to cover costs as they see fit .
They satisfy their marketing claims and still passed another $ 2000 in stuff they would n't cover onto me.I put as many hours into not getting screwed by the insurance company as I did in physical therapy .
This is how screwed up American health insurance really is and $ 15000/yr is the bare minimum.I am mpapet and I approve this post .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>$15000/year is the bare minimum.
By 'bare minimum'  I mean a plan with topline 'coverage' numbers that actually translates into additional money you don't have to spend on medical care AFTER the insurance company covers some care AND the time and effort required to not get a meaningful percentage of medical care costs shifted onto you anyway.A year ago, I got into a freak accident where I stood the likely possibility of bleeding to death.
8 hours of emergency surgery, other terrible stuff.
I blew through the deductible in the first hour of surgery.
($2000)  That's what rainy day savings is for.
What followed though is actually worse.-Hospital's bills were rejected by the Insurance company because they didn't call to notify the Insurance company.
(While I was bleeding to death, the hospital was required to have called to get approval AND THEN started saving my life)  They were going to send all of the Hospital's bills to us.
And they will too.
I ONLY found out about this because I checked to see that the claims were getting processed.
If I didn't check, the insurance company would have closed the window on the possibility of getting the claim paid and then the entire invoice of the hospital's services would have come to me.-Despite the paying the advertised 'maximum deductible' of $2000, there were additional costs that I had to pay.
How is that possible?
The insurance company categorizes medical expenses as they see fit.
So for any given bill, they can choose to cover costs as they see fit.
They satisfy their marketing claims and still passed another $2000 in stuff they wouldn't cover onto me.I put as many hours into not getting screwed by the insurance company as I did in physical therapy.
This is how screwed up American health insurance really is and $15000/yr is the bare minimum.I am mpapet and I approve this post.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230704</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232558</id>
	<title>Re:I did the same for a while...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266866100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think you hit the nail in the head with that fallacy.  You think that if their is a government sponsored plan that YOU will be the one paying, but that is not true.  What do you think you pay now?  The argument is that if government sponsors health care the cost would go down.  If that is true, then you wouldn't have to work 15 hours to pay for someone else, it could be 15mins if any.  Take into account what it cost now, for me and my family it was $15K a year, I now only pay $2.5K wit a government sponsored program.  The point is that the cost of health care is due to the status quo, the purpose of changing it would be to lower it.  40\% goes to pay for other people's medical care, really.  If I were paying 40\% of my paycheck for other people I would fight to get the status quo change don't you agree.  So are you advocating we get rid of all government services, including police, military, schools, etc.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think you hit the nail in the head with that fallacy .
You think that if their is a government sponsored plan that YOU will be the one paying , but that is not true .
What do you think you pay now ?
The argument is that if government sponsors health care the cost would go down .
If that is true , then you would n't have to work 15 hours to pay for someone else , it could be 15mins if any .
Take into account what it cost now , for me and my family it was $ 15K a year , I now only pay $ 2.5K wit a government sponsored program .
The point is that the cost of health care is due to the status quo , the purpose of changing it would be to lower it .
40 \ % goes to pay for other people 's medical care , really .
If I were paying 40 \ % of my paycheck for other people I would fight to get the status quo change do n't you agree .
So are you advocating we get rid of all government services , including police , military , schools , etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think you hit the nail in the head with that fallacy.
You think that if their is a government sponsored plan that YOU will be the one paying, but that is not true.
What do you think you pay now?
The argument is that if government sponsors health care the cost would go down.
If that is true, then you wouldn't have to work 15 hours to pay for someone else, it could be 15mins if any.
Take into account what it cost now, for me and my family it was $15K a year, I now only pay $2.5K wit a government sponsored program.
The point is that the cost of health care is due to the status quo, the purpose of changing it would be to lower it.
40\% goes to pay for other people's medical care, really.
If I were paying 40\% of my paycheck for other people I would fight to get the status quo change don't you agree.
So are you advocating we get rid of all government services, including police, military, schools, etc.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231522</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232926</id>
	<title>Re:Move where?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266867360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hawaii? According to the birthers that's not part of the USA, and it does have health care<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hawaii ?
According to the birthers that 's not part of the USA , and it does have health care : - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hawaii?
According to the birthers that's not part of the USA, and it does have health care :-)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230754</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231130</id>
	<title>Re:Move where?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266862260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm Canadian and very biased, so I'll just say that up front.</p><p>Move to Canada.</p><p>Canada is capitalist.  Canada has universal health care.  Canada's not going to take too much out of you through taxes; if they did, we wouldn't have the economy we do.  Canada's tax code is fairly similar to the US, and probably fairly less complicated (and there are many, many deductions available to businesses).  And you know that Canada has a stable government and isn't going to be embroiled in conflict any time soon.</p><p>Of course, you'll have to go through the immigration process to do so, though if you're running a fairly successful business you should have no trouble (I believe there's a business owner class for immigration).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm Canadian and very biased , so I 'll just say that up front.Move to Canada.Canada is capitalist .
Canada has universal health care .
Canada 's not going to take too much out of you through taxes ; if they did , we would n't have the economy we do .
Canada 's tax code is fairly similar to the US , and probably fairly less complicated ( and there are many , many deductions available to businesses ) .
And you know that Canada has a stable government and is n't going to be embroiled in conflict any time soon.Of course , you 'll have to go through the immigration process to do so , though if you 're running a fairly successful business you should have no trouble ( I believe there 's a business owner class for immigration ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm Canadian and very biased, so I'll just say that up front.Move to Canada.Canada is capitalist.
Canada has universal health care.
Canada's not going to take too much out of you through taxes; if they did, we wouldn't have the economy we do.
Canada's tax code is fairly similar to the US, and probably fairly less complicated (and there are many, many deductions available to businesses).
And you know that Canada has a stable government and isn't going to be embroiled in conflict any time soon.Of course, you'll have to go through the immigration process to do so, though if you're running a fairly successful business you should have no trouble (I believe there's a business owner class for immigration).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230754</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230874</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266861600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>and enjoy universal health care for about $100 per month for a family of 4, unless you can show economic hardship, and then it's free.</p></div><p>This drivel is modded "informative"?</p><p>Seriously? I don't know who's a more deluded, the OP, or the people who modded him.</p><p>Let's see - at $25/person/month , that's $25*12* 33'000'000 (population of Canada) = $9.9 billion US ~ $10 billion US</p><p>Total healthcare spending in Canada last year was $160 billion or so. So $10 billion was paid by the people, and the other $150 billion was <b>magically wished into existence by healthcare fairies</b>... that only grace the "good" countries with their presence.</p><p>There are plenty of problems to be addressed within the healthcare system of the US to be sure... but every time someone from Canada or UK (or more frequently, a troll from the US) buts into a conversation, droning on about "free" healthcare, I feel like smashing their face in with an accounting ledger.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>and enjoy universal health care for about $ 100 per month for a family of 4 , unless you can show economic hardship , and then it 's free.This drivel is modded " informative " ? Seriously ?
I do n't know who 's a more deluded , the OP , or the people who modded him.Let 's see - at $ 25/person/month , that 's $ 25 * 12 * 33'000'000 ( population of Canada ) = $ 9.9 billion US ~ $ 10 billion USTotal healthcare spending in Canada last year was $ 160 billion or so .
So $ 10 billion was paid by the people , and the other $ 150 billion was magically wished into existence by healthcare fairies... that only grace the " good " countries with their presence.There are plenty of problems to be addressed within the healthcare system of the US to be sure... but every time someone from Canada or UK ( or more frequently , a troll from the US ) buts into a conversation , droning on about " free " healthcare , I feel like smashing their face in with an accounting ledger .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>and enjoy universal health care for about $100 per month for a family of 4, unless you can show economic hardship, and then it's free.This drivel is modded "informative"?Seriously?
I don't know who's a more deluded, the OP, or the people who modded him.Let's see - at $25/person/month , that's $25*12* 33'000'000 (population of Canada) = $9.9 billion US ~ $10 billion USTotal healthcare spending in Canada last year was $160 billion or so.
So $10 billion was paid by the people, and the other $150 billion was magically wished into existence by healthcare fairies... that only grace the "good" countries with their presence.There are plenty of problems to be addressed within the healthcare system of the US to be sure... but every time someone from Canada or UK (or more frequently, a troll from the US) buts into a conversation, droning on about "free" healthcare, I feel like smashing their face in with an accounting ledger.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230608</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232620</id>
	<title>This thread is the gayest shit I've read in a long</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266866280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This thread is the gayest shit I've read in a long time.  FUD from both sides.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This thread is the gayest shit I 've read in a long time .
FUD from both sides .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This thread is the gayest shit I've read in a long time.
FUD from both sides.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231822</id>
	<title>Not quite true</title>
	<author>sterno</author>
	<datestamp>1266863940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you look at the health insurance system that existed in the past this was not as big of a problem.  Initially you had most health insurance being provided by mutuals where they did not have concepts like preexisting conditions.  But what happened was these non-profits were soon getting dominated by for-profit health insurers.  Not because these private insurers were more efficient, but rather because they invented concepts like preexisting conditions and did a lot to limit the pool of people they insured.  This let them offer lower prices and seem like a better deal until you got sick and they upped your rates or got rid of you all together.</p><p>This got an order of magnitude worse as some of these private insurers became publicly traded companies.  Not only did going public give them more capital to work with to further undercut competitors, but it also created a necessity of every increasing profits on a quarterly basis.  That means they have to continually find ways to screw the insured.</p><p>So no, it wasn't always this way, but it definitely is now.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you look at the health insurance system that existed in the past this was not as big of a problem .
Initially you had most health insurance being provided by mutuals where they did not have concepts like preexisting conditions .
But what happened was these non-profits were soon getting dominated by for-profit health insurers .
Not because these private insurers were more efficient , but rather because they invented concepts like preexisting conditions and did a lot to limit the pool of people they insured .
This let them offer lower prices and seem like a better deal until you got sick and they upped your rates or got rid of you all together.This got an order of magnitude worse as some of these private insurers became publicly traded companies .
Not only did going public give them more capital to work with to further undercut competitors , but it also created a necessity of every increasing profits on a quarterly basis .
That means they have to continually find ways to screw the insured.So no , it was n't always this way , but it definitely is now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you look at the health insurance system that existed in the past this was not as big of a problem.
Initially you had most health insurance being provided by mutuals where they did not have concepts like preexisting conditions.
But what happened was these non-profits were soon getting dominated by for-profit health insurers.
Not because these private insurers were more efficient, but rather because they invented concepts like preexisting conditions and did a lot to limit the pool of people they insured.
This let them offer lower prices and seem like a better deal until you got sick and they upped your rates or got rid of you all together.This got an order of magnitude worse as some of these private insurers became publicly traded companies.
Not only did going public give them more capital to work with to further undercut competitors, but it also created a necessity of every increasing profits on a quarterly basis.
That means they have to continually find ways to screw the insured.So no, it wasn't always this way, but it definitely is now.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230692</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31262062</id>
	<title>From Asia - Taiwan (not China, for now)</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265137620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Other public healthcare plans may have let some down, but they should really take a look at Taiwan's. The biggest down side it seams is that the doctor's don't make the same kind's of salary, even by comparison with the change in cost of living (unless of course they're a specialist, but even then, it's not as much as they could make elsewhere.) I had a decent package that ate up about 15\% of my salary, for only myself, and the co-pay was ridiculous. To fix half the problems at the dentist would have been 2 months pay, and it was only a few minor cavities. My grandmother had 2 types plus medicare, (medicade?) and for her to get mugged, and die in the hospital overnight was US$87,000 after insurance and other help had done their part. That's 3 times my father's annual salary.</p><p>Yes, some of the best healthcare does come from the US, but that more or less says that if it's a very specific problem then you're in good hands (for a price). But there's something to be said for adequate healthservice. My co-pay here is less than US$5, and that includes the medicine.</p><p>There are something's that simply can not become a business because it'll never yield profit. Medical technology is expensive and it's something we should share the burden on.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Other public healthcare plans may have let some down , but they should really take a look at Taiwan 's .
The biggest down side it seams is that the doctor 's do n't make the same kind 's of salary , even by comparison with the change in cost of living ( unless of course they 're a specialist , but even then , it 's not as much as they could make elsewhere .
) I had a decent package that ate up about 15 \ % of my salary , for only myself , and the co-pay was ridiculous .
To fix half the problems at the dentist would have been 2 months pay , and it was only a few minor cavities .
My grandmother had 2 types plus medicare , ( medicade ?
) and for her to get mugged , and die in the hospital overnight was US $ 87,000 after insurance and other help had done their part .
That 's 3 times my father 's annual salary.Yes , some of the best healthcare does come from the US , but that more or less says that if it 's a very specific problem then you 're in good hands ( for a price ) .
But there 's something to be said for adequate healthservice .
My co-pay here is less than US $ 5 , and that includes the medicine.There are something 's that simply can not become a business because it 'll never yield profit .
Medical technology is expensive and it 's something we should share the burden on .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Other public healthcare plans may have let some down, but they should really take a look at Taiwan's.
The biggest down side it seams is that the doctor's don't make the same kind's of salary, even by comparison with the change in cost of living (unless of course they're a specialist, but even then, it's not as much as they could make elsewhere.
) I had a decent package that ate up about 15\% of my salary, for only myself, and the co-pay was ridiculous.
To fix half the problems at the dentist would have been 2 months pay, and it was only a few minor cavities.
My grandmother had 2 types plus medicare, (medicade?
) and for her to get mugged, and die in the hospital overnight was US$87,000 after insurance and other help had done their part.
That's 3 times my father's annual salary.Yes, some of the best healthcare does come from the US, but that more or less says that if it's a very specific problem then you're in good hands (for a price).
But there's something to be said for adequate healthservice.
My co-pay here is less than US$5, and that includes the medicine.There are something's that simply can not become a business because it'll never yield profit.
Medical technology is expensive and it's something we should share the burden on.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232818</id>
	<title>Re:Just forget paying</title>
	<author>xirusmom</author>
	<datestamp>1266867000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>One emergency room visit will change that.. I recently spent  a few hours at the ER and the bills summed up to $6000. I expect the insurance actually pays a third of that price, but even if you are able to negotiate that deal yourself, it is still a burden. And if you get admitted to the hospital... you are screwed. Any major surgery will cost you 15-30k.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>One emergency room visit will change that.. I recently spent a few hours at the ER and the bills summed up to $ 6000 .
I expect the insurance actually pays a third of that price , but even if you are able to negotiate that deal yourself , it is still a burden .
And if you get admitted to the hospital... you are screwed .
Any major surgery will cost you 15-30k .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One emergency room visit will change that.. I recently spent  a few hours at the ER and the bills summed up to $6000.
I expect the insurance actually pays a third of that price, but even if you are able to negotiate that deal yourself, it is still a burden.
And if you get admitted to the hospital... you are screwed.
Any major surgery will cost you 15-30k.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230848</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31235470</id>
	<title>Re:HSA</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266832380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I am not sure that you read correctly on your HSA.  Even in 2010 the max pay in is $6150 tax free for family coverage.  http://www.irs.gov/publications/p969/ar02.html#en\_US\_publink1000204045  Sounds like you may be in for some tax pain.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I am not sure that you read correctly on your HSA .
Even in 2010 the max pay in is $ 6150 tax free for family coverage .
http : //www.irs.gov/publications/p969/ar02.html # en \ _US \ _publink1000204045 Sounds like you may be in for some tax pain .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am not sure that you read correctly on your HSA.
Even in 2010 the max pay in is $6150 tax free for family coverage.
http://www.irs.gov/publications/p969/ar02.html#en\_US\_publink1000204045  Sounds like you may be in for some tax pain.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230888</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31256146</id>
	<title>Wait for layoff and use COBRA</title>
	<author>JohnnyComeLately</author>
	<datestamp>1266952980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>One thing to keep in mind if you can wait and if you think you'll get laid off is COBRA.  Under one of the Acts passed by Congress and approved by Obama, employers in most situations must pay 65\% of COBRA premiums (vice the 101\% former-employee cost formerly).  I got laid off and my new employer's health care was going to cost $500.  My old plan had triple the coverage and was going to be around $1200 a month.  However, I researched, found out about the law, applied for it and started paying my 35\% portion.  It ended up being exactly the same amount.  So instead of a $1000 cap per year on dental, I've got $2,500 for major and still more coverage for other dental procedures.  Funny thing, both plans were with CIGNA.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>One thing to keep in mind if you can wait and if you think you 'll get laid off is COBRA .
Under one of the Acts passed by Congress and approved by Obama , employers in most situations must pay 65 \ % of COBRA premiums ( vice the 101 \ % former-employee cost formerly ) .
I got laid off and my new employer 's health care was going to cost $ 500 .
My old plan had triple the coverage and was going to be around $ 1200 a month .
However , I researched , found out about the law , applied for it and started paying my 35 \ % portion .
It ended up being exactly the same amount .
So instead of a $ 1000 cap per year on dental , I 've got $ 2,500 for major and still more coverage for other dental procedures .
Funny thing , both plans were with CIGNA .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One thing to keep in mind if you can wait and if you think you'll get laid off is COBRA.
Under one of the Acts passed by Congress and approved by Obama, employers in most situations must pay 65\% of COBRA premiums (vice the 101\% former-employee cost formerly).
I got laid off and my new employer's health care was going to cost $500.
My old plan had triple the coverage and was going to be around $1200 a month.
However, I researched, found out about the law, applied for it and started paying my 35\% portion.
It ended up being exactly the same amount.
So instead of a $1000 cap per year on dental, I've got $2,500 for major and still more coverage for other dental procedures.
Funny thing, both plans were with CIGNA.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31235044</id>
	<title>Look for group coverage a different way..</title>
	<author>wubti</author>
	<datestamp>1266831060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>When I did this, I hooked up with a group like the National Association for the Self Employed. (http://www.nase.org).  They were able to provide group coverage for individuals at discounted rates. This is because the average health of the self-employed is significantly better than in other groups.

It has been more than 10 years since I did this with nase, but it was a very positive experience.

You can look at other "Fraternal Orders" like Thrivent or other group insurers and see if they have a similar program for self-employed.

This is not a specific endorsement of these groups over others. YMMV</htmltext>
<tokenext>When I did this , I hooked up with a group like the National Association for the Self Employed .
( http : //www.nase.org ) . They were able to provide group coverage for individuals at discounted rates .
This is because the average health of the self-employed is significantly better than in other groups .
It has been more than 10 years since I did this with nase , but it was a very positive experience .
You can look at other " Fraternal Orders " like Thrivent or other group insurers and see if they have a similar program for self-employed .
This is not a specific endorsement of these groups over others .
YMMV</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I did this, I hooked up with a group like the National Association for the Self Employed.
(http://www.nase.org).  They were able to provide group coverage for individuals at discounted rates.
This is because the average health of the self-employed is significantly better than in other groups.
It has been more than 10 years since I did this with nase, but it was a very positive experience.
You can look at other "Fraternal Orders" like Thrivent or other group insurers and see if they have a similar program for self-employed.
This is not a specific endorsement of these groups over others.
YMMV</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230834</id>
	<title>a few options</title>
	<author>prgrmr</author>
	<datestamp>1266861540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Most large insurance companies (State Farm, AllState, etc.) have a variety of health insurance offerings ranging from hospitalization-only, to "traditional" comprehensive major medical plans (usually an 80/20 split with the they pay/you pay format plus a deductible) to HMO and HMO-like products.  Prices will range from $300-$1,500 per month depending on the type and amounts of coverage. Some states offer small group or community pools where small businesses can band together to form a risk pool for better rates.  Most BlueCross/BlueShield plans have small business insurance options, but they will be pricey.
<br> <br>
Most of the horror stories involving "I thought I was covered but they said I wasn't" are due to lack of reading the plan requirements for in-network/out-of-network coverages and what doctors and hospitals were part of the plan, what services required referrals or pre-approval.  Bottom line: no matter what you buy, make sure you know the details before you do anything, including visit an E.R. or go to your regular doctor for a check-up.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Most large insurance companies ( State Farm , AllState , etc .
) have a variety of health insurance offerings ranging from hospitalization-only , to " traditional " comprehensive major medical plans ( usually an 80/20 split with the they pay/you pay format plus a deductible ) to HMO and HMO-like products .
Prices will range from $ 300- $ 1,500 per month depending on the type and amounts of coverage .
Some states offer small group or community pools where small businesses can band together to form a risk pool for better rates .
Most BlueCross/BlueShield plans have small business insurance options , but they will be pricey .
Most of the horror stories involving " I thought I was covered but they said I was n't " are due to lack of reading the plan requirements for in-network/out-of-network coverages and what doctors and hospitals were part of the plan , what services required referrals or pre-approval .
Bottom line : no matter what you buy , make sure you know the details before you do anything , including visit an E.R .
or go to your regular doctor for a check-up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most large insurance companies (State Farm, AllState, etc.
) have a variety of health insurance offerings ranging from hospitalization-only, to "traditional" comprehensive major medical plans (usually an 80/20 split with the they pay/you pay format plus a deductible) to HMO and HMO-like products.
Prices will range from $300-$1,500 per month depending on the type and amounts of coverage.
Some states offer small group or community pools where small businesses can band together to form a risk pool for better rates.
Most BlueCross/BlueShield plans have small business insurance options, but they will be pricey.
Most of the horror stories involving "I thought I was covered but they said I wasn't" are due to lack of reading the plan requirements for in-network/out-of-network coverages and what doctors and hospitals were part of the plan, what services required referrals or pre-approval.
Bottom line: no matter what you buy, make sure you know the details before you do anything, including visit an E.R.
or go to your regular doctor for a check-up.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31236024</id>
	<title>How about a politics-free ANSWER - I have one!</title>
	<author>disturbedkt</author>
	<datestamp>1266833940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I get a bit sick of the hyper-polarization of politics these days, particularly when someone has a very practical problem like wanting to leave the corporate world and is scared about his family's health well-being.  Enough of you pulpit-pounding blowhards, on both sides.</p><p>Unlike most of these folks, I didn't really know about this myself, but are likewise interested in this for similar reasons to you - I hope to get out of the corporate world at some point in the next few years and had the same question.  What I found was more encouraging than what many of these folks would have you believe.  Unfortunately, I also found the the options appear quite regional, so my answer will only help you get looking at it for yourself, unless you happen to live in Texas, just like me.</p><p>The most wonderful finding I came across, for Texas, was this:  <a href="http://www.txhealthpool.com/" title="txhealthpool.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.txhealthpool.com/</a> [txhealthpool.com]</p><p>Basically, it appears that in my state this issue was tackled by the state legislature, and they set-up a state-wide health insurance purchase pool for people who fall through the cracks in the current system (e.g. If you're eligible for company-insurance, you can't buy this).  In has multiple deductible/co-insurance levels to choose from, and also has a prescription drug plan too.  It's not too expensive, sounds about the same or less than what my company would pay for individual coverage for myself.  If you have a local equivalent, this might be just what you're looking for...if you don't have too many dependents.</p><p>The other big findings I came across that is worthwhile were a battery of health insurance cooperatives whose existence was made possible by state legislation about 5 years back.  Some examples of the types of coops this allowed for:  <a href="http://www.tdi.state.tx.us/health/lhcoopdefintyps.html" title="state.tx.us" rel="nofollow">http://www.tdi.state.tx.us/health/lhcoopdefintyps.html</a> [state.tx.us]</p><p>In short, I think if you do some research at the state and local levels, you might find similar programs for your area which would help.  I know I feel much better about the prospects, now that I know there are better options for me in the future besides simple individual health insurance and all the risks that entails.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I get a bit sick of the hyper-polarization of politics these days , particularly when someone has a very practical problem like wanting to leave the corporate world and is scared about his family 's health well-being .
Enough of you pulpit-pounding blowhards , on both sides.Unlike most of these folks , I did n't really know about this myself , but are likewise interested in this for similar reasons to you - I hope to get out of the corporate world at some point in the next few years and had the same question .
What I found was more encouraging than what many of these folks would have you believe .
Unfortunately , I also found the the options appear quite regional , so my answer will only help you get looking at it for yourself , unless you happen to live in Texas , just like me.The most wonderful finding I came across , for Texas , was this : http : //www.txhealthpool.com/ [ txhealthpool.com ] Basically , it appears that in my state this issue was tackled by the state legislature , and they set-up a state-wide health insurance purchase pool for people who fall through the cracks in the current system ( e.g .
If you 're eligible for company-insurance , you ca n't buy this ) .
In has multiple deductible/co-insurance levels to choose from , and also has a prescription drug plan too .
It 's not too expensive , sounds about the same or less than what my company would pay for individual coverage for myself .
If you have a local equivalent , this might be just what you 're looking for...if you do n't have too many dependents.The other big findings I came across that is worthwhile were a battery of health insurance cooperatives whose existence was made possible by state legislation about 5 years back .
Some examples of the types of coops this allowed for : http : //www.tdi.state.tx.us/health/lhcoopdefintyps.html [ state.tx.us ] In short , I think if you do some research at the state and local levels , you might find similar programs for your area which would help .
I know I feel much better about the prospects , now that I know there are better options for me in the future besides simple individual health insurance and all the risks that entails .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I get a bit sick of the hyper-polarization of politics these days, particularly when someone has a very practical problem like wanting to leave the corporate world and is scared about his family's health well-being.
Enough of you pulpit-pounding blowhards, on both sides.Unlike most of these folks, I didn't really know about this myself, but are likewise interested in this for similar reasons to you - I hope to get out of the corporate world at some point in the next few years and had the same question.
What I found was more encouraging than what many of these folks would have you believe.
Unfortunately, I also found the the options appear quite regional, so my answer will only help you get looking at it for yourself, unless you happen to live in Texas, just like me.The most wonderful finding I came across, for Texas, was this:  http://www.txhealthpool.com/ [txhealthpool.com]Basically, it appears that in my state this issue was tackled by the state legislature, and they set-up a state-wide health insurance purchase pool for people who fall through the cracks in the current system (e.g.
If you're eligible for company-insurance, you can't buy this).
In has multiple deductible/co-insurance levels to choose from, and also has a prescription drug plan too.
It's not too expensive, sounds about the same or less than what my company would pay for individual coverage for myself.
If you have a local equivalent, this might be just what you're looking for...if you don't have too many dependents.The other big findings I came across that is worthwhile were a battery of health insurance cooperatives whose existence was made possible by state legislation about 5 years back.
Some examples of the types of coops this allowed for:  http://www.tdi.state.tx.us/health/lhcoopdefintyps.html [state.tx.us]In short, I think if you do some research at the state and local levels, you might find similar programs for your area which would help.
I know I feel much better about the prospects, now that I know there are better options for me in the future besides simple individual health insurance and all the risks that entails.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230754</id>
	<title>Move where?</title>
	<author>BenEnglishAtHome</author>
	<datestamp>1266861300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>3 of the first 4 responses are simply "Move out of the U.S."  One suggests Canada.</p><p>Seriously - If I was willing to move out of the U.S. and good health care was on my list of needs, where should I go?</p><p>A good net connection and a government that doesn't care to monitor what I do on that connection would be a major plus.</p><p>I'm no more than 5 years from retirement and find this question oddly applicable to my situation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>3 of the first 4 responses are simply " Move out of the U.S. " One suggests Canada.Seriously - If I was willing to move out of the U.S. and good health care was on my list of needs , where should I go ? A good net connection and a government that does n't care to monitor what I do on that connection would be a major plus.I 'm no more than 5 years from retirement and find this question oddly applicable to my situation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>3 of the first 4 responses are simply "Move out of the U.S."  One suggests Canada.Seriously - If I was willing to move out of the U.S. and good health care was on my list of needs, where should I go?A good net connection and a government that doesn't care to monitor what I do on that connection would be a major plus.I'm no more than 5 years from retirement and find this question oddly applicable to my situation.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231304</id>
	<title>Get it while you are healthy</title>
	<author>ozarkcanoer</author>
	<datestamp>1266862680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I quit working full time and became a part time employee 10 years before I quit completely. I switched from paying a too high charge for the group insurance offered by my employer and my wife and I bought an individual policy from Blue Cross/Blue Shield.  We had to go through medical underwriting which basically means they look at your medical history.  If you and your wife and kids are healthy you should be able to get coverage.  We got a non-cancelable catastrophic plan with high deductibles.  The premiums have more than doubled in the 10 years we've had the coverage and went up 17\% just this year alone.  We are both in our 60s.  Since getting coverage we have both had health issues arise and getting coverage now would be harder, if possible.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I quit working full time and became a part time employee 10 years before I quit completely .
I switched from paying a too high charge for the group insurance offered by my employer and my wife and I bought an individual policy from Blue Cross/Blue Shield .
We had to go through medical underwriting which basically means they look at your medical history .
If you and your wife and kids are healthy you should be able to get coverage .
We got a non-cancelable catastrophic plan with high deductibles .
The premiums have more than doubled in the 10 years we 've had the coverage and went up 17 \ % just this year alone .
We are both in our 60s .
Since getting coverage we have both had health issues arise and getting coverage now would be harder , if possible .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I quit working full time and became a part time employee 10 years before I quit completely.
I switched from paying a too high charge for the group insurance offered by my employer and my wife and I bought an individual policy from Blue Cross/Blue Shield.
We had to go through medical underwriting which basically means they look at your medical history.
If you and your wife and kids are healthy you should be able to get coverage.
We got a non-cancelable catastrophic plan with high deductibles.
The premiums have more than doubled in the 10 years we've had the coverage and went up 17\% just this year alone.
We are both in our 60s.
Since getting coverage we have both had health issues arise and getting coverage now would be harder, if possible.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233628</id>
	<title>What is that "coverage" you are talking about?</title>
	<author>Hurricane78</author>
	<datestamp>1266869880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sure, you will have a plan. A contract too. And you will pay loads of cash.<br>But getting anything for it? Pshh.</p><p>General rule: There is always a term in your contract that states that you get nothing, when interpreted by one of their employees.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p><p>The only recommendation I can make, if you want to live in the USA, is to found your own health insurance company.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sure , you will have a plan .
A contract too .
And you will pay loads of cash.But getting anything for it ?
Pshh.General rule : There is always a term in your contract that states that you get nothing , when interpreted by one of their employees .
; ) The only recommendation I can make , if you want to live in the USA , is to found your own health insurance company .
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sure, you will have a plan.
A contract too.
And you will pay loads of cash.But getting anything for it?
Pshh.General rule: There is always a term in your contract that states that you get nothing, when interpreted by one of their employees.
;)The only recommendation I can make, if you want to live in the USA, is to found your own health insurance company.
:)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31234180</id>
	<title>What helped me...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266871680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What a thread.</p><p>I went through this about 8 years ago.  I'm assuming you're in the US.  My advice is look into HIPAA and COBRA, for the transition.  Also, some professional organizations have group insurance plans for members (mine did).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What a thread.I went through this about 8 years ago .
I 'm assuming you 're in the US .
My advice is look into HIPAA and COBRA , for the transition .
Also , some professional organizations have group insurance plans for members ( mine did ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What a thread.I went through this about 8 years ago.
I'm assuming you're in the US.
My advice is look into HIPAA and COBRA, for the transition.
Also, some professional organizations have group insurance plans for members (mine did).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233082</id>
	<title>Stay at job until insurance is lined up</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266868020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Assuming you are in the US, the most important thing I would recommend is don't leave your job until you have insurance lined up.  This can be as simple as a decision to keep your existing plan via COBRA.  If you leave your job before getting insurance, at least start with COBRA, no matter how expensive.  Keep at least COBRA because:<br>1) You will have *some* coverage (if expensive)<br>2) You can't go back to it later if you turn it down now</p><p>Even better, however, go ahead and apply for and line up private insurance before you leave your job.  (And before you make any suggestion of leaving to anyone outside your family or other highly trusted individuals.)</p><p>The *worst* thing you can do is leave your job without outside insurance and without accepting COBRA.  (You have something like 60 days after termination to accept COBRA.)</p><p>I emphasize lining up coverage before you leave for a few main reasons:<br>1) You may not qualify for private insurance for reasons you would not expect.  Just because you think you are healthy does not mean insurance companies do.<br>2) If you *turn down* COBRA, you are still eligible for it for 18 months, even though you cannot get it!!!!!  This is a terrible situation to be in, because most state high-risk insurance pools (usually the insurance providers of last resort for desperate people) will not accept you because you are "eligible" for COBRA, even though you may have already turned it down.<br>3) Do you really want to risk being uninsured, even for a short time?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Assuming you are in the US , the most important thing I would recommend is do n't leave your job until you have insurance lined up .
This can be as simple as a decision to keep your existing plan via COBRA .
If you leave your job before getting insurance , at least start with COBRA , no matter how expensive .
Keep at least COBRA because : 1 ) You will have * some * coverage ( if expensive ) 2 ) You ca n't go back to it later if you turn it down nowEven better , however , go ahead and apply for and line up private insurance before you leave your job .
( And before you make any suggestion of leaving to anyone outside your family or other highly trusted individuals .
) The * worst * thing you can do is leave your job without outside insurance and without accepting COBRA .
( You have something like 60 days after termination to accept COBRA .
) I emphasize lining up coverage before you leave for a few main reasons : 1 ) You may not qualify for private insurance for reasons you would not expect .
Just because you think you are healthy does not mean insurance companies do.2 ) If you * turn down * COBRA , you are still eligible for it for 18 months , even though you can not get it ! ! ! ! !
This is a terrible situation to be in , because most state high-risk insurance pools ( usually the insurance providers of last resort for desperate people ) will not accept you because you are " eligible " for COBRA , even though you may have already turned it down.3 ) Do you really want to risk being uninsured , even for a short time ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Assuming you are in the US, the most important thing I would recommend is don't leave your job until you have insurance lined up.
This can be as simple as a decision to keep your existing plan via COBRA.
If you leave your job before getting insurance, at least start with COBRA, no matter how expensive.
Keep at least COBRA because:1) You will have *some* coverage (if expensive)2) You can't go back to it later if you turn it down nowEven better, however, go ahead and apply for and line up private insurance before you leave your job.
(And before you make any suggestion of leaving to anyone outside your family or other highly trusted individuals.
)The *worst* thing you can do is leave your job without outside insurance and without accepting COBRA.
(You have something like 60 days after termination to accept COBRA.
)I emphasize lining up coverage before you leave for a few main reasons:1) You may not qualify for private insurance for reasons you would not expect.
Just because you think you are healthy does not mean insurance companies do.2) If you *turn down* COBRA, you are still eligible for it for 18 months, even though you cannot get it!!!!!
This is a terrible situation to be in, because most state high-risk insurance pools (usually the insurance providers of last resort for desperate people) will not accept you because you are "eligible" for COBRA, even though you may have already turned it down.3) Do you really want to risk being uninsured, even for a short time?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230566</id>
	<title>Easy</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266860700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Move to the UK or another country that cares</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Move to the UK or another country that cares</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Move to the UK or another country that cares</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233610</id>
	<title>Health Insurance When Leaving the Corporate World?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266869820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree with those who've urged you to stay in your job.  If you're hell-bent on leaving, be prepared for anything ranging from smooth sailing to big problems.  It depends on your current health, your family's current health, prior health issues, age, location, occupation and the phase of the moon-- well, maybe not quite that.</p><p>When I left my cushy NASA gig in '94 (big mistake in $$ terms but much less bullshit) to work as a consultant I was able to get great coverage through a professional society (IEEE in this case).  If you're a member of such a society find out of they offer it;  if not it may be worth joining one.  I had a great plan, but as the society's US member pool declined, the benefits grew worse.  First was an across-the-board deductible increase to $5K (mine had been $2500).  When I turned 50 a couple months ago my premium shot up by $300/month, making the annual cost a very large sum *before* I'd see any benefits.</p><p>As an official old fart I joined AARP (you know, that group that tries to make anyone over 50 seem cute and cuddly?) to apply for its Aetna plan.  I have a herniated disk in my neck and asthma (but am otherwise in very good health) and I was denied coverage.  They were honest-- the rep said if I had either one, but not both, there'd be no problem.  I've tried a couple other carriers with the same result.  In the old days they might have covered me with exclusions, but evidently they don't do that any more.  Fortunately for me my wife has good coverage through her employer, but if she were laid off we'd be in trouble after COBRA ran out.</p><p>So, depending on your circumstances, these are the kind of things you might be facing.  I certainly understand your desire to leave the corporate world, but if your family is depending on your plan for coverage, don't do it.  Good luck, whatever you decide.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree with those who 've urged you to stay in your job .
If you 're hell-bent on leaving , be prepared for anything ranging from smooth sailing to big problems .
It depends on your current health , your family 's current health , prior health issues , age , location , occupation and the phase of the moon-- well , maybe not quite that.When I left my cushy NASA gig in '94 ( big mistake in $ $ terms but much less bullshit ) to work as a consultant I was able to get great coverage through a professional society ( IEEE in this case ) .
If you 're a member of such a society find out of they offer it ; if not it may be worth joining one .
I had a great plan , but as the society 's US member pool declined , the benefits grew worse .
First was an across-the-board deductible increase to $ 5K ( mine had been $ 2500 ) .
When I turned 50 a couple months ago my premium shot up by $ 300/month , making the annual cost a very large sum * before * I 'd see any benefits.As an official old fart I joined AARP ( you know , that group that tries to make anyone over 50 seem cute and cuddly ?
) to apply for its Aetna plan .
I have a herniated disk in my neck and asthma ( but am otherwise in very good health ) and I was denied coverage .
They were honest-- the rep said if I had either one , but not both , there 'd be no problem .
I 've tried a couple other carriers with the same result .
In the old days they might have covered me with exclusions , but evidently they do n't do that any more .
Fortunately for me my wife has good coverage through her employer , but if she were laid off we 'd be in trouble after COBRA ran out.So , depending on your circumstances , these are the kind of things you might be facing .
I certainly understand your desire to leave the corporate world , but if your family is depending on your plan for coverage , do n't do it .
Good luck , whatever you decide .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree with those who've urged you to stay in your job.
If you're hell-bent on leaving, be prepared for anything ranging from smooth sailing to big problems.
It depends on your current health, your family's current health, prior health issues, age, location, occupation and the phase of the moon-- well, maybe not quite that.When I left my cushy NASA gig in '94 (big mistake in $$ terms but much less bullshit) to work as a consultant I was able to get great coverage through a professional society (IEEE in this case).
If you're a member of such a society find out of they offer it;  if not it may be worth joining one.
I had a great plan, but as the society's US member pool declined, the benefits grew worse.
First was an across-the-board deductible increase to $5K (mine had been $2500).
When I turned 50 a couple months ago my premium shot up by $300/month, making the annual cost a very large sum *before* I'd see any benefits.As an official old fart I joined AARP (you know, that group that tries to make anyone over 50 seem cute and cuddly?
) to apply for its Aetna plan.
I have a herniated disk in my neck and asthma (but am otherwise in very good health) and I was denied coverage.
They were honest-- the rep said if I had either one, but not both, there'd be no problem.
I've tried a couple other carriers with the same result.
In the old days they might have covered me with exclusions, but evidently they don't do that any more.
Fortunately for me my wife has good coverage through her employer, but if she were laid off we'd be in trouble after COBRA ran out.So, depending on your circumstances, these are the kind of things you might be facing.
I certainly understand your desire to leave the corporate world, but if your family is depending on your plan for coverage, don't do it.
Good luck, whatever you decide.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232076</id>
	<title>Re:You're fucked</title>
	<author>clarkkent09</author>
	<datestamp>1266864660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>Good luck. Depending on what state you live in, you are either well and truly fucked, or deeply, seriously fucked.

The best thing you can do is start a trivial corporation, hire on some fake employees, and then get a group plan.</i> <br> <br>I left my job and started a small business about two years ago. I applied for individual health insurance with about five companies and I got declined by some of them due to a preexisting condition (a knee injury/surgery about 6 months prior), but I got pretty decent quotes by some of them. As it happened, the plan I wanted was one of those denied, so I called them and offered to exclude knee related problems from the coverage and they agreed. This is something I highly recommend to do if you get denied for that reason. Then their agent called me back and said if I can send them evidence (such as a letter from my doctor) that the knee is fully recovered, they will give me full coverage without any exceptions, which they did in the end. So now I have a pretty decent medical and dental insurance for about $200/month. For that money the best you can do is get fully covered in case of a serious illness, but you pay a bit more for routine stuff. <br> <br>So, no, you are not necessarily "deeply, seriously fucked". The horror stories mainly come from people with serious preexisting conditions who can't get insured at any price. However, as far as I know there is a bipartisan agreement to ban insurance companies from considering preexisting conditions so whenever the bill gets passed and in whatever form, that will surely be fixed.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Good luck .
Depending on what state you live in , you are either well and truly fucked , or deeply , seriously fucked .
The best thing you can do is start a trivial corporation , hire on some fake employees , and then get a group plan .
I left my job and started a small business about two years ago .
I applied for individual health insurance with about five companies and I got declined by some of them due to a preexisting condition ( a knee injury/surgery about 6 months prior ) , but I got pretty decent quotes by some of them .
As it happened , the plan I wanted was one of those denied , so I called them and offered to exclude knee related problems from the coverage and they agreed .
This is something I highly recommend to do if you get denied for that reason .
Then their agent called me back and said if I can send them evidence ( such as a letter from my doctor ) that the knee is fully recovered , they will give me full coverage without any exceptions , which they did in the end .
So now I have a pretty decent medical and dental insurance for about $ 200/month .
For that money the best you can do is get fully covered in case of a serious illness , but you pay a bit more for routine stuff .
So , no , you are not necessarily " deeply , seriously fucked " .
The horror stories mainly come from people with serious preexisting conditions who ca n't get insured at any price .
However , as far as I know there is a bipartisan agreement to ban insurance companies from considering preexisting conditions so whenever the bill gets passed and in whatever form , that will surely be fixed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Good luck.
Depending on what state you live in, you are either well and truly fucked, or deeply, seriously fucked.
The best thing you can do is start a trivial corporation, hire on some fake employees, and then get a group plan.
I left my job and started a small business about two years ago.
I applied for individual health insurance with about five companies and I got declined by some of them due to a preexisting condition (a knee injury/surgery about 6 months prior), but I got pretty decent quotes by some of them.
As it happened, the plan I wanted was one of those denied, so I called them and offered to exclude knee related problems from the coverage and they agreed.
This is something I highly recommend to do if you get denied for that reason.
Then their agent called me back and said if I can send them evidence (such as a letter from my doctor) that the knee is fully recovered, they will give me full coverage without any exceptions, which they did in the end.
So now I have a pretty decent medical and dental insurance for about $200/month.
For that money the best you can do is get fully covered in case of a serious illness, but you pay a bit more for routine stuff.
So, no, you are not necessarily "deeply, seriously fucked".
The horror stories mainly come from people with serious preexisting conditions who can't get insured at any price.
However, as far as I know there is a bipartisan agreement to ban insurance companies from considering preexisting conditions so whenever the bill gets passed and in whatever form, that will surely be fixed.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230606</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230976</id>
	<title>Re:Move where?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266861900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>3 of the first 4 responses are simply "Move out of the U.S."  One suggests Canada.</p><p>Seriously - If I was willing to move out of the U.S. and good health care was on my list of needs, where should I go?</p><p>A good net connection and a government that doesn't care to monitor what I do on that connection would be a major plus.</p><p>I'm no more than 5 years from retirement and find this question oddly applicable to my situation.</p></div><p>Literally just about anywhere besides the USA.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>3 of the first 4 responses are simply " Move out of the U.S. " One suggests Canada.Seriously - If I was willing to move out of the U.S. and good health care was on my list of needs , where should I go ? A good net connection and a government that does n't care to monitor what I do on that connection would be a major plus.I 'm no more than 5 years from retirement and find this question oddly applicable to my situation.Literally just about anywhere besides the USA .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>3 of the first 4 responses are simply "Move out of the U.S."  One suggests Canada.Seriously - If I was willing to move out of the U.S. and good health care was on my list of needs, where should I go?A good net connection and a government that doesn't care to monitor what I do on that connection would be a major plus.I'm no more than 5 years from retirement and find this question oddly applicable to my situation.Literally just about anywhere besides the USA.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230754</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31239288</id>
	<title>Re:I did the same for a while...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266848700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are things one can do to live a healthy life that are essentially free, such as eating right, exercising, behaving ethically and so on.</p><p>Then there are things that require a specialist of some sort. A doctor or an immunologist or a surgeon. These people need to be paid. Those aren't free.</p><p>Thankfully the first set of things has kept me out of hospitals so far. However, If I had a condition that required a lot from the second set, 15 hours of my life a week to be able to take care of them, and have peace of mind, doesn't sound like too much.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are things one can do to live a healthy life that are essentially free , such as eating right , exercising , behaving ethically and so on.Then there are things that require a specialist of some sort .
A doctor or an immunologist or a surgeon .
These people need to be paid .
Those are n't free.Thankfully the first set of things has kept me out of hospitals so far .
However , If I had a condition that required a lot from the second set , 15 hours of my life a week to be able to take care of them , and have peace of mind , does n't sound like too much .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are things one can do to live a healthy life that are essentially free, such as eating right, exercising, behaving ethically and so on.Then there are things that require a specialist of some sort.
A doctor or an immunologist or a surgeon.
These people need to be paid.
Those aren't free.Thankfully the first set of things has kept me out of hospitals so far.
However, If I had a condition that required a lot from the second set, 15 hours of my life a week to be able to take care of them, and have peace of mind, doesn't sound like too much.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230926</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31254430</id>
	<title>Another option?</title>
	<author>smoyer</author>
	<datestamp>1266938520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I find that living next door to my doctor works pretty well;)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I find that living next door to my doctor works pretty well ; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I find that living next door to my doctor works pretty well;)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232232</id>
	<title>Vote</title>
	<author>cwgmpls</author>
	<datestamp>1266865080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I spent a few years off of corporate health coverage for a while in Minnesota.  We're a great healthcare state, but even here, if you have any kind of income, there is no way to buy affordable health insurance.  In my case, my only option was to drop coverage, pool the over $1200 per month that I would have spent on health insurance to take care of doctor visits as they came up, and pray nobody in my family got cancer.  It was either that or sell the house.  Our system is broken and there is currently no way to be self-employed, pay a mortgage, and buy health insurance all at the same time.</p><p>I can't see things getting better any time soon.  The only thing you can do is vote for people who are actually going to try to fix this.  There is a clear track record of political parties that have resisted meaningful healthcare overhaul for over a decade, and political parties that have tried and are trying even now to get healthcare fixed in the U.S.</p><p>In the short term, you can try the few scant options mentioned here.  In the long term, it is pretty clear who to vote for to finally get healthcare fixed in this country.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I spent a few years off of corporate health coverage for a while in Minnesota .
We 're a great healthcare state , but even here , if you have any kind of income , there is no way to buy affordable health insurance .
In my case , my only option was to drop coverage , pool the over $ 1200 per month that I would have spent on health insurance to take care of doctor visits as they came up , and pray nobody in my family got cancer .
It was either that or sell the house .
Our system is broken and there is currently no way to be self-employed , pay a mortgage , and buy health insurance all at the same time.I ca n't see things getting better any time soon .
The only thing you can do is vote for people who are actually going to try to fix this .
There is a clear track record of political parties that have resisted meaningful healthcare overhaul for over a decade , and political parties that have tried and are trying even now to get healthcare fixed in the U.S.In the short term , you can try the few scant options mentioned here .
In the long term , it is pretty clear who to vote for to finally get healthcare fixed in this country .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I spent a few years off of corporate health coverage for a while in Minnesota.
We're a great healthcare state, but even here, if you have any kind of income, there is no way to buy affordable health insurance.
In my case, my only option was to drop coverage, pool the over $1200 per month that I would have spent on health insurance to take care of doctor visits as they came up, and pray nobody in my family got cancer.
It was either that or sell the house.
Our system is broken and there is currently no way to be self-employed, pay a mortgage, and buy health insurance all at the same time.I can't see things getting better any time soon.
The only thing you can do is vote for people who are actually going to try to fix this.
There is a clear track record of political parties that have resisted meaningful healthcare overhaul for over a decade, and political parties that have tried and are trying even now to get healthcare fixed in the U.S.In the short term, you can try the few scant options mentioned here.
In the long term, it is pretty clear who to vote for to finally get healthcare fixed in this country.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31244454</id>
	<title>re: Health Insurance outside Corporate</title>
	<author>hittjw</author>
	<datestamp>1266940380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you are self-employed or a habitual IT contractor you can incorporate then get your own health insurance through a trade association.  Had MAMSI via the National Association of the Self-Employed for 6 years.  Great rates, easy to deal with.  With hundreds of thousands of members it was better than what some companies were offering.  But don't wait around till a nationalized policy is available in the US.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you are self-employed or a habitual IT contractor you can incorporate then get your own health insurance through a trade association .
Had MAMSI via the National Association of the Self-Employed for 6 years .
Great rates , easy to deal with .
With hundreds of thousands of members it was better than what some companies were offering .
But do n't wait around till a nationalized policy is available in the US .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you are self-employed or a habitual IT contractor you can incorporate then get your own health insurance through a trade association.
Had MAMSI via the National Association of the Self-Employed for 6 years.
Great rates, easy to deal with.
With hundreds of thousands of members it was better than what some companies were offering.
But don't wait around till a nationalized policy is available in the US.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232200</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Homburg</author>
	<datestamp>1266865020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So, presumably, whenever you quote prices for health insurance in the US, you add on the <a href="http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea\_per\_cap\_gov\_exp\_on\_hea\_in\_int\_dol-capita-government-expenditure-international-dollars" title="nationmaster.com">$2,368 per person that the US government spends on healthcare</a> [nationmaster.com]? Given that Canadian government spending on healthcare is <em>less</em> than US government spending on healthcare, comparing this $100 figure with insurance costs in the US actually exaggerates how expensive Canadian coverage is.</p><p><em>Every</em> developed country spends a significant amount of taxpayers' money on healthcare, and this is going to be implicit in any discussion of healthcare costs. The difference is, in most Western countries, in return for their tax money, everyone gets healthcare for little or no additional cost; in the US, on the other hand, we have to pay taxes for healthcare, and then we have to spend a huge amount of money on insurance or out-of-pocket costs, as well.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>So , presumably , whenever you quote prices for health insurance in the US , you add on the $ 2,368 per person that the US government spends on healthcare [ nationmaster.com ] ?
Given that Canadian government spending on healthcare is less than US government spending on healthcare , comparing this $ 100 figure with insurance costs in the US actually exaggerates how expensive Canadian coverage is.Every developed country spends a significant amount of taxpayers ' money on healthcare , and this is going to be implicit in any discussion of healthcare costs .
The difference is , in most Western countries , in return for their tax money , everyone gets healthcare for little or no additional cost ; in the US , on the other hand , we have to pay taxes for healthcare , and then we have to spend a huge amount of money on insurance or out-of-pocket costs , as well .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So, presumably, whenever you quote prices for health insurance in the US, you add on the $2,368 per person that the US government spends on healthcare [nationmaster.com]?
Given that Canadian government spending on healthcare is less than US government spending on healthcare, comparing this $100 figure with insurance costs in the US actually exaggerates how expensive Canadian coverage is.Every developed country spends a significant amount of taxpayers' money on healthcare, and this is going to be implicit in any discussion of healthcare costs.
The difference is, in most Western countries, in return for their tax money, everyone gets healthcare for little or no additional cost; in the US, on the other hand, we have to pay taxes for healthcare, and then we have to spend a huge amount of money on insurance or out-of-pocket costs, as well.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230874</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31238938</id>
	<title>Re:doesn't that make you boiling mad?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266846660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Also, we need a focus on nutritional medicine as the majority of our diseases are caused/induced by poor nutrition. Proper nutrition can cure disease rather than just covering up the symptoms with drugs and cause a lower need for surgery.</p></div><p>Uh, no. I stopped reading here. Though I should have stopped when you compared prices in silver/dollar values - it rings my "Ron Paul nut" warning bell.</p><p>Note that this is coming from someone who is very anal about his eating habits: fresh veggies/fruit at each meal, high-quality, grass fed, low fat meat, whole grain carbohydrates, organic and locally-sourced whenever I can. But being anal-retentive doesn't mean I completely forget how biology works, or that food is only a small part of the ecosystem in my body. If I get skin-infection, get H1N1 or explosive diarrhea, you bet your ass I'm off to the nearest doctor for a check-up. Carrot juice, Acai fruit mixes and wheat grass won't cure any of that.</p><p>Do you know why shopping around for the best deal is a stupid idea? Because if I'm down with Legionnaire's disease, broke my leg on a mountain, got a road rash or came down with a nasty case of MRSA, I'm not calling different doctors. I also don't want my primary doctor calling around for the best deal. I want this stuff taken care off, right there and then. If you're arguing that it should be like shopping around for car insurance - congratulations, that's what we have right now.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Also , we need a focus on nutritional medicine as the majority of our diseases are caused/induced by poor nutrition .
Proper nutrition can cure disease rather than just covering up the symptoms with drugs and cause a lower need for surgery.Uh , no .
I stopped reading here .
Though I should have stopped when you compared prices in silver/dollar values - it rings my " Ron Paul nut " warning bell.Note that this is coming from someone who is very anal about his eating habits : fresh veggies/fruit at each meal , high-quality , grass fed , low fat meat , whole grain carbohydrates , organic and locally-sourced whenever I can .
But being anal-retentive does n't mean I completely forget how biology works , or that food is only a small part of the ecosystem in my body .
If I get skin-infection , get H1N1 or explosive diarrhea , you bet your ass I 'm off to the nearest doctor for a check-up .
Carrot juice , Acai fruit mixes and wheat grass wo n't cure any of that.Do you know why shopping around for the best deal is a stupid idea ?
Because if I 'm down with Legionnaire 's disease , broke my leg on a mountain , got a road rash or came down with a nasty case of MRSA , I 'm not calling different doctors .
I also do n't want my primary doctor calling around for the best deal .
I want this stuff taken care off , right there and then .
If you 're arguing that it should be like shopping around for car insurance - congratulations , that 's what we have right now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Also, we need a focus on nutritional medicine as the majority of our diseases are caused/induced by poor nutrition.
Proper nutrition can cure disease rather than just covering up the symptoms with drugs and cause a lower need for surgery.Uh, no.
I stopped reading here.
Though I should have stopped when you compared prices in silver/dollar values - it rings my "Ron Paul nut" warning bell.Note that this is coming from someone who is very anal about his eating habits: fresh veggies/fruit at each meal, high-quality, grass fed, low fat meat, whole grain carbohydrates, organic and locally-sourced whenever I can.
But being anal-retentive doesn't mean I completely forget how biology works, or that food is only a small part of the ecosystem in my body.
If I get skin-infection, get H1N1 or explosive diarrhea, you bet your ass I'm off to the nearest doctor for a check-up.
Carrot juice, Acai fruit mixes and wheat grass won't cure any of that.Do you know why shopping around for the best deal is a stupid idea?
Because if I'm down with Legionnaire's disease, broke my leg on a mountain, got a road rash or came down with a nasty case of MRSA, I'm not calling different doctors.
I also don't want my primary doctor calling around for the best deal.
I want this stuff taken care off, right there and then.
If you're arguing that it should be like shopping around for car insurance - congratulations, that's what we have right now.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232396</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231070</id>
	<title>Anonymous Coward</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266862140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Contrary to much of the posted opinion, assuming that your are in good heath,  an individual policy for you and your family will be much cheaper than what the  insurance company has been charging your company (of which you may only of been paying a very small portion of).   Anthem freely admits the group and small group insurance is much more expensive for a healthy person than its individual policy.</p><p>Insurance will NOT cost you and your family 15K<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/year if you all are in good health.    If a member of your family is not in good health, then I am sorry.  If this is the case and you can send your partner/spouse to work to help out, then I wish you luck.</p><p>At age 50 (old I know) and in SoCal, Anthem wanted to charge my company $1100/mo for me and my spouse under its small group policy vs $410 for an equivalent individual/family policy.  So please - don't listen to the horror stories - call around.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Contrary to much of the posted opinion , assuming that your are in good heath , an individual policy for you and your family will be much cheaper than what the insurance company has been charging your company ( of which you may only of been paying a very small portion of ) .
Anthem freely admits the group and small group insurance is much more expensive for a healthy person than its individual policy.Insurance will NOT cost you and your family 15K /year if you all are in good health .
If a member of your family is not in good health , then I am sorry .
If this is the case and you can send your partner/spouse to work to help out , then I wish you luck.At age 50 ( old I know ) and in SoCal , Anthem wanted to charge my company $ 1100/mo for me and my spouse under its small group policy vs $ 410 for an equivalent individual/family policy .
So please - do n't listen to the horror stories - call around .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Contrary to much of the posted opinion, assuming that your are in good heath,  an individual policy for you and your family will be much cheaper than what the  insurance company has been charging your company (of which you may only of been paying a very small portion of).
Anthem freely admits the group and small group insurance is much more expensive for a healthy person than its individual policy.Insurance will NOT cost you and your family 15K /year if you all are in good health.
If a member of your family is not in good health, then I am sorry.
If this is the case and you can send your partner/spouse to work to help out, then I wish you luck.At age 50 (old I know) and in SoCal, Anthem wanted to charge my company $1100/mo for me and my spouse under its small group policy vs $410 for an equivalent individual/family policy.
So please - don't listen to the horror stories - call around.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231238</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266862500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's not like we aren't paying for health care already in the US... Medicare, Medicaid, Blue CHIP in Pennsylvania, not sure what other type of 18 and under insurance other states offer, etc.</p><p>The two owners where I work always have arguements over various topics. The latest was about the government run health care. The on is absolutely against it, the other said "it may not be perfect but I understand what these people deal with and they need something". Well the one absolutely against it then said "well if their employers don't offer coverage and they can't afford it out of pocket then they need to find a real job." Both myself and my coworker looked at each other and said "see ya" as our employer doesn't offer any coverage because it would cost them way too much per month to stay profitable.</p><p>Sometimes people need to think before they speak, and maybe suggest an alternative option rather than just bitching and rejecting an idea outright with no information or views that really support what they believe (and most believe because they here someone else bitching about it such as a talk radio host).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's not like we are n't paying for health care already in the US... Medicare , Medicaid , Blue CHIP in Pennsylvania , not sure what other type of 18 and under insurance other states offer , etc.The two owners where I work always have arguements over various topics .
The latest was about the government run health care .
The on is absolutely against it , the other said " it may not be perfect but I understand what these people deal with and they need something " .
Well the one absolutely against it then said " well if their employers do n't offer coverage and they ca n't afford it out of pocket then they need to find a real job .
" Both myself and my coworker looked at each other and said " see ya " as our employer does n't offer any coverage because it would cost them way too much per month to stay profitable.Sometimes people need to think before they speak , and maybe suggest an alternative option rather than just bitching and rejecting an idea outright with no information or views that really support what they believe ( and most believe because they here someone else bitching about it such as a talk radio host ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's not like we aren't paying for health care already in the US... Medicare, Medicaid, Blue CHIP in Pennsylvania, not sure what other type of 18 and under insurance other states offer, etc.The two owners where I work always have arguements over various topics.
The latest was about the government run health care.
The on is absolutely against it, the other said "it may not be perfect but I understand what these people deal with and they need something".
Well the one absolutely against it then said "well if their employers don't offer coverage and they can't afford it out of pocket then they need to find a real job.
" Both myself and my coworker looked at each other and said "see ya" as our employer doesn't offer any coverage because it would cost them way too much per month to stay profitable.Sometimes people need to think before they speak, and maybe suggest an alternative option rather than just bitching and rejecting an idea outright with no information or views that really support what they believe (and most believe because they here someone else bitching about it such as a talk radio host).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230874</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231482</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266863100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are two options here: either everyone else is really stupid and believes that "free" means "costs no money"; or you're really stupid for failing to understand, as everyone else does, that "free" means "factored in to my taxes in such a way that it's barely noticeable and surprisingly efficient compared to the private health schemes of those countries stupid / poor enough to use them".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are two options here : either everyone else is really stupid and believes that " free " means " costs no money " ; or you 're really stupid for failing to understand , as everyone else does , that " free " means " factored in to my taxes in such a way that it 's barely noticeable and surprisingly efficient compared to the private health schemes of those countries stupid / poor enough to use them " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are two options here: either everyone else is really stupid and believes that "free" means "costs no money"; or you're really stupid for failing to understand, as everyone else does, that "free" means "factored in to my taxes in such a way that it's barely noticeable and surprisingly efficient compared to the private health schemes of those countries stupid / poor enough to use them".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230874</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233462</id>
	<title>Umm</title>
	<author>copponex</author>
	<datestamp>1266869340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you can't afford to help your countrymen get health care, how can you afford to fight multiple major wars and lower taxes at the same time?</p><p>The only problem with the Republican viewpoint on government spending <b>is that it doesn't make any fucking sense.</b></p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you ca n't afford to help your countrymen get health care , how can you afford to fight multiple major wars and lower taxes at the same time ? The only problem with the Republican viewpoint on government spending is that it does n't make any fucking sense .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you can't afford to help your countrymen get health care, how can you afford to fight multiple major wars and lower taxes at the same time?The only problem with the Republican viewpoint on government spending is that it doesn't make any fucking sense.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231522</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232654</id>
	<title>Re:Check with your local Chamber of Commerce</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266866400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I pay around $900 for family insurance. If you go thru the Chamber of Commerce you will pay the same coverage, at least my local one in Las Vegas.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I pay around $ 900 for family insurance .
If you go thru the Chamber of Commerce you will pay the same coverage , at least my local one in Las Vegas .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I pay around $900 for family insurance.
If you go thru the Chamber of Commerce you will pay the same coverage, at least my local one in Las Vegas.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230668</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31237500</id>
	<title>Re:Missing argument in health-care debate</title>
	<author>Stradivarius</author>
	<datestamp>1266838920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That would indeed be a benefit.</p><p>It probably didn't get used as part of the sales pitch much because most people are not operating their own business. So if all the employers for their profession offer insurance, the benefit of insurance portability is not that high for those people.  The issues of cost and pre-existing condition coverage are relevant to a far greater number of people.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That would indeed be a benefit.It probably did n't get used as part of the sales pitch much because most people are not operating their own business .
So if all the employers for their profession offer insurance , the benefit of insurance portability is not that high for those people .
The issues of cost and pre-existing condition coverage are relevant to a far greater number of people .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That would indeed be a benefit.It probably didn't get used as part of the sales pitch much because most people are not operating their own business.
So if all the employers for their profession offer insurance, the benefit of insurance portability is not that high for those people.
The issues of cost and pre-existing condition coverage are relevant to a far greater number of people.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230838</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31237282</id>
	<title>Move to New Zealand</title>
	<author>QuestionsNotAnswers</author>
	<datestamp>1266838020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We have a free state health care system, and a private health care system, and they both work (from my own anecdotes, and our health stats mostly rank better than the US).</p><p>Private health care (i.e. health care beyond what the state provides) is cheap (unless you are below average income), available and it also works. An 'expensive' all-options private plan for a single 40 year old with an unhealthy lifestyle but no pre-conditions is about <b>USD30 per week</b> - try out the calculator <a href="http://wellbeingcalculator.southerncross.co.nz/OnlineQuote.aspx" title="southerncross.co.nz" rel="nofollow">http://wellbeingcalculator.southerncross.co.nz/OnlineQuote.aspx</a> [southerncross.co.nz] (I hope that it is accessable from a non-NZ IP address). You can get a quote by selecting a plan and answering 4 questions:</p><ol>
<li>Are you a non-smoker? ie. have not smoked at all over the past 12 months.</li><li>Do you eat five servings or more of fruit and vegetables per day?</li><li>Do you exercise three or more times a week?</li><li>Do you drink: Female - two or less glasses of alcohol a day (14 per week)? Male - three or less glasses of alcohol a day (21 per week)?</li></ol><p>PS: We have a simple tax system too: <a href="http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1558016&amp;cid=31225696" title="slashdot.org" rel="nofollow">http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1558016&amp;cid=31225696</a> [slashdot.org] </p><p> <i>Disclaimer: I am from NZ and I do want US immigrants because those that move tend to be smart and motivated and that helps our economy!</i>. Don't take my word for it - ask other US citizens that have moved here.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>We have a free state health care system , and a private health care system , and they both work ( from my own anecdotes , and our health stats mostly rank better than the US ) .Private health care ( i.e .
health care beyond what the state provides ) is cheap ( unless you are below average income ) , available and it also works .
An 'expensive ' all-options private plan for a single 40 year old with an unhealthy lifestyle but no pre-conditions is about USD30 per week - try out the calculator http : //wellbeingcalculator.southerncross.co.nz/OnlineQuote.aspx [ southerncross.co.nz ] ( I hope that it is accessable from a non-NZ IP address ) .
You can get a quote by selecting a plan and answering 4 questions : Are you a non-smoker ?
ie. have not smoked at all over the past 12 months.Do you eat five servings or more of fruit and vegetables per day ? Do you exercise three or more times a week ? Do you drink : Female - two or less glasses of alcohol a day ( 14 per week ) ?
Male - three or less glasses of alcohol a day ( 21 per week ) ? PS : We have a simple tax system too : http : //slashdot.org/comments.pl ? sid = 1558016&amp;cid = 31225696 [ slashdot.org ] Disclaimer : I am from NZ and I do want US immigrants because those that move tend to be smart and motivated and that helps our economy ! .
Do n't take my word for it - ask other US citizens that have moved here .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We have a free state health care system, and a private health care system, and they both work (from my own anecdotes, and our health stats mostly rank better than the US).Private health care (i.e.
health care beyond what the state provides) is cheap (unless you are below average income), available and it also works.
An 'expensive' all-options private plan for a single 40 year old with an unhealthy lifestyle but no pre-conditions is about USD30 per week - try out the calculator http://wellbeingcalculator.southerncross.co.nz/OnlineQuote.aspx [southerncross.co.nz] (I hope that it is accessable from a non-NZ IP address).
You can get a quote by selecting a plan and answering 4 questions:
Are you a non-smoker?
ie. have not smoked at all over the past 12 months.Do you eat five servings or more of fruit and vegetables per day?Do you exercise three or more times a week?Do you drink: Female - two or less glasses of alcohol a day (14 per week)?
Male - three or less glasses of alcohol a day (21 per week)?PS: We have a simple tax system too: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1558016&amp;cid=31225696 [slashdot.org]  Disclaimer: I am from NZ and I do want US immigrants because those that move tend to be smart and motivated and that helps our economy!.
Don't take my word for it - ask other US citizens that have moved here.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231130</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232984</id>
	<title>Who wants Health Insurance?</title>
	<author>bareman</author>
	<datestamp>1266867660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What we need is affordable medical services.   Right now we have a screwed up betting system (health insurance) where the player bets that they are going to be sicker than they will be, and that when they are sick the medical service providers will be able to do more to help them than they can.</p><p>Insurance adds cost and not value to the system.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What we need is affordable medical services .
Right now we have a screwed up betting system ( health insurance ) where the player bets that they are going to be sicker than they will be , and that when they are sick the medical service providers will be able to do more to help them than they can.Insurance adds cost and not value to the system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What we need is affordable medical services.
Right now we have a screwed up betting system (health insurance) where the player bets that they are going to be sicker than they will be, and that when they are sick the medical service providers will be able to do more to help them than they can.Insurance adds cost and not value to the system.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31234242</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>sedmonds</author>
	<datestamp>1266871860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Sadly, hospitals are not allowed to beat people until they have a condition worthy of visiting the ER, if they come in with a cold or stubbed toe.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Sadly , hospitals are not allowed to beat people until they have a condition worthy of visiting the ER , if they come in with a cold or stubbed toe .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sadly, hospitals are not allowed to beat people until they have a condition worthy of visiting the ER, if they come in with a cold or stubbed toe.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230772</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31234112</id>
	<title>Re:Missing argument in health-care debate</title>
	<author>phantomfive</author>
	<datestamp>1266871500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>It has come up, and good solutions have been proposed. For example, <a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122887085038593345.html" title="wsj.com">this one by the brother of Rahm Emmanuel</a> [wsj.com]. That is the most maddening thing about the entire healthcare debate, there are some good, easy solutions that will make things a lot better, and that would be popular, but the two plans in congress are so horrible that no one wants them.<br> <br>
Some people have suggested that the reason Democrats are reticent to move away from employer based plans is because that is one of the major benefits of having a union.  Many non-union employees get paid the same as union employees, so about the only thing left unions can offer is health insurance (and making it harder to get fired).  I don't know if that is true or not.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It has come up , and good solutions have been proposed .
For example , this one by the brother of Rahm Emmanuel [ wsj.com ] .
That is the most maddening thing about the entire healthcare debate , there are some good , easy solutions that will make things a lot better , and that would be popular , but the two plans in congress are so horrible that no one wants them .
Some people have suggested that the reason Democrats are reticent to move away from employer based plans is because that is one of the major benefits of having a union .
Many non-union employees get paid the same as union employees , so about the only thing left unions can offer is health insurance ( and making it harder to get fired ) .
I do n't know if that is true or not .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It has come up, and good solutions have been proposed.
For example, this one by the brother of Rahm Emmanuel [wsj.com].
That is the most maddening thing about the entire healthcare debate, there are some good, easy solutions that will make things a lot better, and that would be popular, but the two plans in congress are so horrible that no one wants them.
Some people have suggested that the reason Democrats are reticent to move away from employer based plans is because that is one of the major benefits of having a union.
Many non-union employees get paid the same as union employees, so about the only thing left unions can offer is health insurance (and making it harder to get fired).
I don't know if that is true or not.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230838</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31237534</id>
	<title>Seasoned Advice</title>
	<author>iliketrash</author>
	<datestamp>1266839040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It appears that most of the replies to your question are actually rants on health care, so I'll see if I can be more helpful.</p><p>You didn't say where you live but my experience is in the USA. I am single and purchase insurance only for myself.</p><p>I was in a group plan sponsored by the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers which blew up--there were a small number of very expensive cases and the rest of the group gets to pay for the increased cost. (This is true even for "non-group" plans but the degree differs. There is always an insured pool even if the "group" is, say, the population of your state.) My premiums shot past $600 per month and I bailed.</p><p>I quickly found ehealthinsurance.com which is an amazing site where you can compare all of the available plans for your state in a table form--kind of like a good shopping site for, say, TVs. As you may know, it is illegal for insurance companies to sell insurance to people out-of-state, so that is why you have to shop by state. As far as I know, \_all\_ of the available plans were listed on this site--123 for my state. So all that is left is to pick one that works best for you (and your family).</p><p>You will have to pass the pre-existing conditions test. If you are normally healthy and have been for a while, this won't be a problem. You will have to answer lots of questions about your recent health for the company to decide if you have such conditions. I recall that they went back n years where n is a small integer (2 or 3???). Minor stuff is OK--they are mainly looking for more major conditions. I don't know if pre-existing conditions automatically rule you out or increase your premium payments. This is probably not a good place to lie because if you get caught, they can drop you.</p><p>Once you get covered, you had better not get sick and then try to move to another state, because you will have to re-apply with an insurance company in that state. If you get sick, you are a prisoner in your state until you once again become well for n years. (Note that I am not an expert in this area and I have not consulted with my own policy to see if it is actually true.)</p><p>You will discover versions of basically the same plan offered with different deductible structures and premium payments, per insurance company. If you have the means to cover a large deductible and/or expect to be pretty healthy, you can opt for say $2,500 annual deductible and get a good plan at a really decent price.</p><p>(This is the basis for the Republican plan to fix health insurance in the U.S. You or your employer would annually contribute an amount equal to a large deductible to a Health Savings Account which accumulates earnings tax-free like an Individual Retirement Account, IRA. You are then motivated to shop for cost-effective health care because you get to keep any part of the HSA that is not spent towards the deducible. This is the market mechanism which is claimed will reduce costs. In a year when the deductible is spent, then the insurance kicks in. Certain incidental items would not be charged against the deductible but instead are paid in full or in part by the insurance company. For example, office visits and preventative care would be either fully covered or covered with a co-payment.)</p><p>Finally, you might consider how many physicians an insurance company is contracted with in your area. I'm not sure how you find this out but the insurance companies might be helpful in that regard. (I have found that my insurance company is surprisingly responsive and helpful when reached by telephone. All other things being equal, you will want a company that has contracts with lots of physicians. Even then, you may well be referred to a specialist only to be told that that particular person is not contracted with your insurance company. You will then have to ask the referring physician for another referral.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It appears that most of the replies to your question are actually rants on health care , so I 'll see if I can be more helpful.You did n't say where you live but my experience is in the USA .
I am single and purchase insurance only for myself.I was in a group plan sponsored by the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers which blew up--there were a small number of very expensive cases and the rest of the group gets to pay for the increased cost .
( This is true even for " non-group " plans but the degree differs .
There is always an insured pool even if the " group " is , say , the population of your state .
) My premiums shot past $ 600 per month and I bailed.I quickly found ehealthinsurance.com which is an amazing site where you can compare all of the available plans for your state in a table form--kind of like a good shopping site for , say , TVs .
As you may know , it is illegal for insurance companies to sell insurance to people out-of-state , so that is why you have to shop by state .
As far as I know , \ _all \ _ of the available plans were listed on this site--123 for my state .
So all that is left is to pick one that works best for you ( and your family ) .You will have to pass the pre-existing conditions test .
If you are normally healthy and have been for a while , this wo n't be a problem .
You will have to answer lots of questions about your recent health for the company to decide if you have such conditions .
I recall that they went back n years where n is a small integer ( 2 or 3 ? ? ? ) .
Minor stuff is OK--they are mainly looking for more major conditions .
I do n't know if pre-existing conditions automatically rule you out or increase your premium payments .
This is probably not a good place to lie because if you get caught , they can drop you.Once you get covered , you had better not get sick and then try to move to another state , because you will have to re-apply with an insurance company in that state .
If you get sick , you are a prisoner in your state until you once again become well for n years .
( Note that I am not an expert in this area and I have not consulted with my own policy to see if it is actually true .
) You will discover versions of basically the same plan offered with different deductible structures and premium payments , per insurance company .
If you have the means to cover a large deductible and/or expect to be pretty healthy , you can opt for say $ 2,500 annual deductible and get a good plan at a really decent price .
( This is the basis for the Republican plan to fix health insurance in the U.S. You or your employer would annually contribute an amount equal to a large deductible to a Health Savings Account which accumulates earnings tax-free like an Individual Retirement Account , IRA .
You are then motivated to shop for cost-effective health care because you get to keep any part of the HSA that is not spent towards the deducible .
This is the market mechanism which is claimed will reduce costs .
In a year when the deductible is spent , then the insurance kicks in .
Certain incidental items would not be charged against the deductible but instead are paid in full or in part by the insurance company .
For example , office visits and preventative care would be either fully covered or covered with a co-payment .
) Finally , you might consider how many physicians an insurance company is contracted with in your area .
I 'm not sure how you find this out but the insurance companies might be helpful in that regard .
( I have found that my insurance company is surprisingly responsive and helpful when reached by telephone .
All other things being equal , you will want a company that has contracts with lots of physicians .
Even then , you may well be referred to a specialist only to be told that that particular person is not contracted with your insurance company .
You will then have to ask the referring physician for another referral .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It appears that most of the replies to your question are actually rants on health care, so I'll see if I can be more helpful.You didn't say where you live but my experience is in the USA.
I am single and purchase insurance only for myself.I was in a group plan sponsored by the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers which blew up--there were a small number of very expensive cases and the rest of the group gets to pay for the increased cost.
(This is true even for "non-group" plans but the degree differs.
There is always an insured pool even if the "group" is, say, the population of your state.
) My premiums shot past $600 per month and I bailed.I quickly found ehealthinsurance.com which is an amazing site where you can compare all of the available plans for your state in a table form--kind of like a good shopping site for, say, TVs.
As you may know, it is illegal for insurance companies to sell insurance to people out-of-state, so that is why you have to shop by state.
As far as I know, \_all\_ of the available plans were listed on this site--123 for my state.
So all that is left is to pick one that works best for you (and your family).You will have to pass the pre-existing conditions test.
If you are normally healthy and have been for a while, this won't be a problem.
You will have to answer lots of questions about your recent health for the company to decide if you have such conditions.
I recall that they went back n years where n is a small integer (2 or 3???).
Minor stuff is OK--they are mainly looking for more major conditions.
I don't know if pre-existing conditions automatically rule you out or increase your premium payments.
This is probably not a good place to lie because if you get caught, they can drop you.Once you get covered, you had better not get sick and then try to move to another state, because you will have to re-apply with an insurance company in that state.
If you get sick, you are a prisoner in your state until you once again become well for n years.
(Note that I am not an expert in this area and I have not consulted with my own policy to see if it is actually true.
)You will discover versions of basically the same plan offered with different deductible structures and premium payments, per insurance company.
If you have the means to cover a large deductible and/or expect to be pretty healthy, you can opt for say $2,500 annual deductible and get a good plan at a really decent price.
(This is the basis for the Republican plan to fix health insurance in the U.S. You or your employer would annually contribute an amount equal to a large deductible to a Health Savings Account which accumulates earnings tax-free like an Individual Retirement Account, IRA.
You are then motivated to shop for cost-effective health care because you get to keep any part of the HSA that is not spent towards the deducible.
This is the market mechanism which is claimed will reduce costs.
In a year when the deductible is spent, then the insurance kicks in.
Certain incidental items would not be charged against the deductible but instead are paid in full or in part by the insurance company.
For example, office visits and preventative care would be either fully covered or covered with a co-payment.
)Finally, you might consider how many physicians an insurance company is contracted with in your area.
I'm not sure how you find this out but the insurance companies might be helpful in that regard.
(I have found that my insurance company is surprisingly responsive and helpful when reached by telephone.
All other things being equal, you will want a company that has contracts with lots of physicians.
Even then, you may well be referred to a specialist only to be told that that particular person is not contracted with your insurance company.
You will then have to ask the referring physician for another referral.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231798</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>netsavior</author>
	<datestamp>1266863880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>yeah, but it is not like the US employer sponsored healthcare is magic either.  My employer pays ~400 a month (at least that is what they claim on their taxes) and I pay about $520/month 610 if you count dental too.  My medicare tax paid is also $120/month.  I also have a flex spending account that <b>usually</b> pays for all of my out of pocket, this costs me 375/month.<br> <br>
I support a family of 6, with NO MEDICAL PROBLEMS, just the usual bumps bruises, sprains, colds, cuts, scrapes, etc.<br> <br>
My annual MINIMUM medical costs and medical taxes in the US are: $18,060.  My income tax PLUS health insurance + social security = 45\% of my pay.  Show me a first world country where I would pay significantly more in their <i>omg horrible evil overtaxing for socalist medicine</i> system.<br> <br>
The money is already being spent in the U.S. it is just being spent on large corporations with huge margins and plenty of incentive to stay expensive.  I would love to pay my 45\% and stop having to fight with AETNA for every fucking sniffle.  I would love for my 45\% to be helping my neighbor instead of paying a 25 million dollar execvutive bonus for AETNA.<br> <br>

Hello, my name is Netsavior, and I am <b>already</b> taxed at 45\%, I live in the U.S. and I have shitty health care.</htmltext>
<tokenext>yeah , but it is not like the US employer sponsored healthcare is magic either .
My employer pays ~ 400 a month ( at least that is what they claim on their taxes ) and I pay about $ 520/month 610 if you count dental too .
My medicare tax paid is also $ 120/month .
I also have a flex spending account that usually pays for all of my out of pocket , this costs me 375/month .
I support a family of 6 , with NO MEDICAL PROBLEMS , just the usual bumps bruises , sprains , colds , cuts , scrapes , etc .
My annual MINIMUM medical costs and medical taxes in the US are : $ 18,060 .
My income tax PLUS health insurance + social security = 45 \ % of my pay .
Show me a first world country where I would pay significantly more in their omg horrible evil overtaxing for socalist medicine system .
The money is already being spent in the U.S. it is just being spent on large corporations with huge margins and plenty of incentive to stay expensive .
I would love to pay my 45 \ % and stop having to fight with AETNA for every fucking sniffle .
I would love for my 45 \ % to be helping my neighbor instead of paying a 25 million dollar execvutive bonus for AETNA .
Hello , my name is Netsavior , and I am already taxed at 45 \ % , I live in the U.S. and I have shitty health care .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>yeah, but it is not like the US employer sponsored healthcare is magic either.
My employer pays ~400 a month (at least that is what they claim on their taxes) and I pay about $520/month 610 if you count dental too.
My medicare tax paid is also $120/month.
I also have a flex spending account that usually pays for all of my out of pocket, this costs me 375/month.
I support a family of 6, with NO MEDICAL PROBLEMS, just the usual bumps bruises, sprains, colds, cuts, scrapes, etc.
My annual MINIMUM medical costs and medical taxes in the US are: $18,060.
My income tax PLUS health insurance + social security = 45\% of my pay.
Show me a first world country where I would pay significantly more in their omg horrible evil overtaxing for socalist medicine system.
The money is already being spent in the U.S. it is just being spent on large corporations with huge margins and plenty of incentive to stay expensive.
I would love to pay my 45\% and stop having to fight with AETNA for every fucking sniffle.
I would love for my 45\% to be helping my neighbor instead of paying a 25 million dollar execvutive bonus for AETNA.
Hello, my name is Netsavior, and I am already taxed at 45\%, I live in the U.S. and I have shitty health care.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230874</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31237584</id>
	<title>Re:So sad....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266839280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would rather have to buy my own insurance, and become dirt poor because of the high cost, than have "universal" health care, and become dirt poor because of the crazy taxes and crappy economy that are sure to result (ya I said that).</p><p>I guess those crazy taxes are why we here in<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.au had no recession and wheathered the GFC better than any other advanced economies!</p><p>All you did was add your uniformed and banal comment.</p><p>I have just as much control of my health care as anyone in the US does, I choose the doctor and only the doctor chooses my treatment.</p><p>Stop watching Fox and have a look at the real world.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would rather have to buy my own insurance , and become dirt poor because of the high cost , than have " universal " health care , and become dirt poor because of the crazy taxes and crappy economy that are sure to result ( ya I said that ) .I guess those crazy taxes are why we here in .au had no recession and wheathered the GFC better than any other advanced economies ! All you did was add your uniformed and banal comment.I have just as much control of my health care as anyone in the US does , I choose the doctor and only the doctor chooses my treatment.Stop watching Fox and have a look at the real world .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would rather have to buy my own insurance, and become dirt poor because of the high cost, than have "universal" health care, and become dirt poor because of the crazy taxes and crappy economy that are sure to result (ya I said that).I guess those crazy taxes are why we here in .au had no recession and wheathered the GFC better than any other advanced economies!All you did was add your uniformed and banal comment.I have just as much control of my health care as anyone in the US does, I choose the doctor and only the doctor chooses my treatment.Stop watching Fox and have a look at the real world.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231636</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230606</id>
	<title>You're fucked</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266860820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Good luck.  Depending on what state you live in, you are either well and truly fucked, or deeply, seriously fucked.</p><p>The best thing you can do is start a trivial corporation, hire on some fake employees, and then get a group plan.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Good luck .
Depending on what state you live in , you are either well and truly fucked , or deeply , seriously fucked.The best thing you can do is start a trivial corporation , hire on some fake employees , and then get a group plan .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Good luck.
Depending on what state you live in, you are either well and truly fucked, or deeply, seriously fucked.The best thing you can do is start a trivial corporation, hire on some fake employees, and then get a group plan.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231286</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Lumpy</author>
	<datestamp>1266862620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Are you really that stupid?  because you sound like it.</p><p>The magical health-care fairies are TAXES you idiot.</p><p>Only a raging sociopath, or completely greedy asshole is against paying higher taxes to make sure everyone around him is in good health.</p><p>so which one are you?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Are you really that stupid ?
because you sound like it.The magical health-care fairies are TAXES you idiot.Only a raging sociopath , or completely greedy asshole is against paying higher taxes to make sure everyone around him is in good health.so which one are you ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Are you really that stupid?
because you sound like it.The magical health-care fairies are TAXES you idiot.Only a raging sociopath, or completely greedy asshole is against paying higher taxes to make sure everyone around him is in good health.so which one are you?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230874</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231014</id>
	<title>Medicaid</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266862020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Get the best primary residence you can
possibly afford.  If you get really sick,
go on Medicaid.  Medicaid can't take your
primary residence.  Also, look into a "Medicaid
approved annuity" to protect some assets; but
be mindful of the fact that it will lock up
the money at low interest rates.</p><p>If you don't have significant assets, don't
buy anything.  Health insurance doesn't insure
your health, it insures your assets--badly.</p><p>In general, set up an asset protection plan
if you have any signficant assets.  Talk to a lawyer.
The idea is to make yourself looke "poor on paper".
Really.  I wish I were kidding.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Get the best primary residence you can possibly afford .
If you get really sick , go on Medicaid .
Medicaid ca n't take your primary residence .
Also , look into a " Medicaid approved annuity " to protect some assets ; but be mindful of the fact that it will lock up the money at low interest rates.If you do n't have significant assets , do n't buy anything .
Health insurance does n't insure your health , it insures your assets--badly.In general , set up an asset protection plan if you have any signficant assets .
Talk to a lawyer .
The idea is to make yourself looke " poor on paper " .
Really. I wish I were kidding .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Get the best primary residence you can
possibly afford.
If you get really sick,
go on Medicaid.
Medicaid can't take your
primary residence.
Also, look into a "Medicaid
approved annuity" to protect some assets; but
be mindful of the fact that it will lock up
the money at low interest rates.If you don't have significant assets, don't
buy anything.
Health insurance doesn't insure
your health, it insures your assets--badly.In general, set up an asset protection plan
if you have any signficant assets.
Talk to a lawyer.
The idea is to make yourself looke "poor on paper".
Really.  I wish I were kidding.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233036</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266867840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sociopath I guess.  If I need elective knee surgery the wait around here is about a week, maybe two if your surgeon of choice is on vacation.  Compare that to our neighbors in Canadia where the wait can be more than a year for the same treatment.  I'll take ridiculously priced *exclusive* health care with a better quality of life.  People outside our country don't seem to understand that poor people in the US already have socialized health care.  We just don't call it that.  What we're fighting against is making people with a little bit of money accept the socialized quality of life.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sociopath I guess .
If I need elective knee surgery the wait around here is about a week , maybe two if your surgeon of choice is on vacation .
Compare that to our neighbors in Canadia where the wait can be more than a year for the same treatment .
I 'll take ridiculously priced * exclusive * health care with a better quality of life .
People outside our country do n't seem to understand that poor people in the US already have socialized health care .
We just do n't call it that .
What we 're fighting against is making people with a little bit of money accept the socialized quality of life .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sociopath I guess.
If I need elective knee surgery the wait around here is about a week, maybe two if your surgeon of choice is on vacation.
Compare that to our neighbors in Canadia where the wait can be more than a year for the same treatment.
I'll take ridiculously priced *exclusive* health care with a better quality of life.
People outside our country don't seem to understand that poor people in the US already have socialized health care.
We just don't call it that.
What we're fighting against is making people with a little bit of money accept the socialized quality of life.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231286</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31234650</id>
	<title>Practical advice without dogma</title>
	<author>Aquitaine</author>
	<datestamp>1266829800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It seems like there are a zillion comments relating to health insurance dogma or 'Go to Canada' or 'go to the UK.' I won't get into how health care SHOULD work (beyond one point that I consider to be quite simple) but will try to answer your question, since I'm in the same boat.</p><p>I am in business for myself as a software guy. One day soon we might have an employee or two, but even then our situation won't change too much.</p><p>There is really only one thing you can do: go to eHealthinsurance.com, plug in your info and your zip code, and hope your zip code is a good one. Right now I have the misfortune of living in New York State. If I lived in PA, DE, or CT then my insurance would cost anywhere between 1/4 and 1/2 of what I pay now (north of $300 and I'm healthy and young), but New York has one of the most highly regulated insurance markets in the country, either up there with or right behind California. New Jersey is also terrible.</p><p>Depending on your income and your situation, there can be benefits to living in a heavily regulated insurance market, but for the most part, if you run a small business or otherwise are a contractor rather than an employee, you're out of luck when it comes to affordable insurance if you are in a state like NY that is very hostile to the insurance industry.</p><p>New York screws you two ways because not only are all your choices expensive, but there aren't many choices to begin wtih. What I really wanted was a health savings plan where I could put X amount away (ideally pre-tax, but whatever) and spend it on routine care, and then have insurance for catastrophic stuff. I don't mind paying out of pocket for small things because small things are going to be less than (or, at worst, as much as) my $300 monthly premium anyway - I've had my policy now for three years and have probably made one or two claims on it for a couple hundred bucks worth of stuff, but I've been lucky and haven't needed anything worse.  There are plenty of states out there that allow or even encourage this. But in heavily regulated NY and CA, the insurance market needs my buy-in not to balance out my own claims down the line, but because politicians insist on things like demanding that insurers keep on unemployed/COBRA customers are reduced premiums or even no premiums for a set amount of time, and so I end up paying inflated rates.</p><p>So if you're lucky, you're in a state that does a better job than NY or CA or NJ in terms of looking out for you (since it's not like total deregulation is really ideal either) but isn't driving out the insurance companies and therefore limiting competition.</p><p>WSJ had a good piece about this a few weeks back (subscription required):</p><p><a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704259304575043861057904360.html?KEYWORDS=wellpoint" title="wsj.com">Wall Street Journal Wellpoint CEO interview</a> [wsj.com]</p><p>My two cents about the health care debate going on in other comments is just this: if I could buy insurance from any state, almost all my problems with health care would go away. I encourage you to go to eHealthinsurance and just plug in different zip codes for your neighboring states. Try Connecticut (a pretty good state for health insurance, relatively speaking) and then New York. Then PA or DE. Or Texas. The discrepancies are amazing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It seems like there are a zillion comments relating to health insurance dogma or 'Go to Canada ' or 'go to the UK .
' I wo n't get into how health care SHOULD work ( beyond one point that I consider to be quite simple ) but will try to answer your question , since I 'm in the same boat.I am in business for myself as a software guy .
One day soon we might have an employee or two , but even then our situation wo n't change too much.There is really only one thing you can do : go to eHealthinsurance.com , plug in your info and your zip code , and hope your zip code is a good one .
Right now I have the misfortune of living in New York State .
If I lived in PA , DE , or CT then my insurance would cost anywhere between 1/4 and 1/2 of what I pay now ( north of $ 300 and I 'm healthy and young ) , but New York has one of the most highly regulated insurance markets in the country , either up there with or right behind California .
New Jersey is also terrible.Depending on your income and your situation , there can be benefits to living in a heavily regulated insurance market , but for the most part , if you run a small business or otherwise are a contractor rather than an employee , you 're out of luck when it comes to affordable insurance if you are in a state like NY that is very hostile to the insurance industry.New York screws you two ways because not only are all your choices expensive , but there are n't many choices to begin wtih .
What I really wanted was a health savings plan where I could put X amount away ( ideally pre-tax , but whatever ) and spend it on routine care , and then have insurance for catastrophic stuff .
I do n't mind paying out of pocket for small things because small things are going to be less than ( or , at worst , as much as ) my $ 300 monthly premium anyway - I 've had my policy now for three years and have probably made one or two claims on it for a couple hundred bucks worth of stuff , but I 've been lucky and have n't needed anything worse .
There are plenty of states out there that allow or even encourage this .
But in heavily regulated NY and CA , the insurance market needs my buy-in not to balance out my own claims down the line , but because politicians insist on things like demanding that insurers keep on unemployed/COBRA customers are reduced premiums or even no premiums for a set amount of time , and so I end up paying inflated rates.So if you 're lucky , you 're in a state that does a better job than NY or CA or NJ in terms of looking out for you ( since it 's not like total deregulation is really ideal either ) but is n't driving out the insurance companies and therefore limiting competition.WSJ had a good piece about this a few weeks back ( subscription required ) : Wall Street Journal Wellpoint CEO interview [ wsj.com ] My two cents about the health care debate going on in other comments is just this : if I could buy insurance from any state , almost all my problems with health care would go away .
I encourage you to go to eHealthinsurance and just plug in different zip codes for your neighboring states .
Try Connecticut ( a pretty good state for health insurance , relatively speaking ) and then New York .
Then PA or DE .
Or Texas .
The discrepancies are amazing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It seems like there are a zillion comments relating to health insurance dogma or 'Go to Canada' or 'go to the UK.
' I won't get into how health care SHOULD work (beyond one point that I consider to be quite simple) but will try to answer your question, since I'm in the same boat.I am in business for myself as a software guy.
One day soon we might have an employee or two, but even then our situation won't change too much.There is really only one thing you can do: go to eHealthinsurance.com, plug in your info and your zip code, and hope your zip code is a good one.
Right now I have the misfortune of living in New York State.
If I lived in PA, DE, or CT then my insurance would cost anywhere between 1/4 and 1/2 of what I pay now (north of $300 and I'm healthy and young), but New York has one of the most highly regulated insurance markets in the country, either up there with or right behind California.
New Jersey is also terrible.Depending on your income and your situation, there can be benefits to living in a heavily regulated insurance market, but for the most part, if you run a small business or otherwise are a contractor rather than an employee, you're out of luck when it comes to affordable insurance if you are in a state like NY that is very hostile to the insurance industry.New York screws you two ways because not only are all your choices expensive, but there aren't many choices to begin wtih.
What I really wanted was a health savings plan where I could put X amount away (ideally pre-tax, but whatever) and spend it on routine care, and then have insurance for catastrophic stuff.
I don't mind paying out of pocket for small things because small things are going to be less than (or, at worst, as much as) my $300 monthly premium anyway - I've had my policy now for three years and have probably made one or two claims on it for a couple hundred bucks worth of stuff, but I've been lucky and haven't needed anything worse.
There are plenty of states out there that allow or even encourage this.
But in heavily regulated NY and CA, the insurance market needs my buy-in not to balance out my own claims down the line, but because politicians insist on things like demanding that insurers keep on unemployed/COBRA customers are reduced premiums or even no premiums for a set amount of time, and so I end up paying inflated rates.So if you're lucky, you're in a state that does a better job than NY or CA or NJ in terms of looking out for you (since it's not like total deregulation is really ideal either) but isn't driving out the insurance companies and therefore limiting competition.WSJ had a good piece about this a few weeks back (subscription required):Wall Street Journal Wellpoint CEO interview [wsj.com]My two cents about the health care debate going on in other comments is just this: if I could buy insurance from any state, almost all my problems with health care would go away.
I encourage you to go to eHealthinsurance and just plug in different zip codes for your neighboring states.
Try Connecticut (a pretty good state for health insurance, relatively speaking) and then New York.
Then PA or DE.
Or Texas.
The discrepancies are amazing.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231320</id>
	<title>Re:You're fucked</title>
	<author>furball</author>
	<datestamp>1266862740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I left the corporate world 2 years ago to go independent. I didn't have any problems getting coverage at all. I don't think luck has anything to do with it.</p><p>I was 32 at the time, in good health, not overweight, not a smoker, really good cholesterol stats, etc.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I left the corporate world 2 years ago to go independent .
I did n't have any problems getting coverage at all .
I do n't think luck has anything to do with it.I was 32 at the time , in good health , not overweight , not a smoker , really good cholesterol stats , etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I left the corporate world 2 years ago to go independent.
I didn't have any problems getting coverage at all.
I don't think luck has anything to do with it.I was 32 at the time, in good health, not overweight, not a smoker, really good cholesterol stats, etc.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230606</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31238716</id>
	<title>COBRA, Individual Insurance, Group Policies</title>
	<author>JakFrost</author>
	<datestamp>1266845340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've been a contractor and consultant for many years and I've had to provide my own insurance for many years.</p><p><b>COBRA = Up to 18-months at Full Corporate &amp; Personal Payment + ~2\% Administrative Fees</b></p><p>Just to let you know that coverage under <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consolidated\_Omnibus\_Budget\_Reconciliation\_Act\_of\_1985" title="wikipedia.org">COBRA</a> [wikipedia.org] is not always good since you have to pay your part of the premium, the company's part of the premium, and also an added administrative fee so you're paying an additional premium for coverage that is now costing you twice or much more.</p><p><b>Independent Coverage from Major US HMO (Aetna, Oxford, Blue Cross/Shield, etc.) = $1,400 - $1,800 per Month</b></p><p>For shits and giggles I decided to call and research the major insurance companies in New York state in the US and ask them about what it would cost to cover me individually and I got quote from $1,400 to $1,800 for the lowest priced HMO prices for a fully healthy 25-30 year old male, non-smoking, non-drinking, no-preconditions.  These prices were direct from the provider themselves and I was surprised that they quoted me so much above what the <a href="http://www.ins.state.ny.us/website2/hny/english/hny.htm" title="state.ny.us">New York State Insurance Department for Health Care Plans</a> [state.ny.us] had listed on their web site.</p><p><b>Freelancers Union or Local Chamber of Commerce</b></p><p>Be aware that the health plans offered at least in New York State around the mid 2005's by the <a href="http://www.freelancersunion.org/" title="freelancersunion.org">FreelancersUnion.org</a> [freelancersunion.org] were not exactly cheap nor good, they offered HIP HMO which was the lowest rated HMO with the higher complaint count according to the NYS Insurance Department for Health Care Plans and they wanted $700 for individual only and over $1,000 for family.  HIP had a series of corruption and accounting issues that were public and incompetence that wasn't but was know by folks that worked there, some were friends.</p><p>They did offer a pretty good "discount" plan for Dental by Guardian for ~$50 per month that did have pretty good rates for procedures, such as \%50 off for a root canal and crown, and really low costs of $12 for composite molar fillings with multiple faces being done.</p><p>Now Freelancer's Union has expanded and they offer PPO 1,2,3 (Preferred Provider Organization = You pick your own doctor not from an HMO network) that are damn expensive at $300-500 for individual or $800-1,400 for family and HD $5K and $10K (High Deductible ~= Catastrophic Health Problem) plans that are still quite expensive at $200-300 for individual or $550-900 for a family.</p><p>I've been with and have used Freelancer's Unions dental plan but not the health plan and I did think that they offered such a great deal and savings.  Their plans are expensive and they are not really a union they are a <i>for-profit company that is just reselling you insurance!</i>  They do not run their business very efficiently or very well with multiple cases of screw ups every year when it comes time to renew the plans and select your new plans, such as two years ago when they didn't do re-enrollment for a whole month after the deadline since they screwed up.  They run a fully paperless frontend for you but from the back office work they must deal with reams of it.  Just be careful and weary of this so called "union" since they are not one!</p><p><b>Uninsured Option!</b></p><p>I decided to give up on HMO or PPO health insurance because it's just too insanely expensive at $900-$1,400 for coverage.  That is more money that my biggest expense that is rent.  It is an insane amount of money for a self-employed individual making due with a few clients and non-steady income.</p><p>The United States is a horrible place to live without be subservient to a corporation who holds their benefits and insurance plans over you like an indentured servant since if you start and family and decide to leave their good graces or are no longer desired you're in the path of bankruptcy for even non-lethal health problems or accidents.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've been a contractor and consultant for many years and I 've had to provide my own insurance for many years.COBRA = Up to 18-months at Full Corporate &amp; Personal Payment + ~ 2 \ % Administrative FeesJust to let you know that coverage under COBRA [ wikipedia.org ] is not always good since you have to pay your part of the premium , the company 's part of the premium , and also an added administrative fee so you 're paying an additional premium for coverage that is now costing you twice or much more.Independent Coverage from Major US HMO ( Aetna , Oxford , Blue Cross/Shield , etc .
) = $ 1,400 - $ 1,800 per MonthFor shits and giggles I decided to call and research the major insurance companies in New York state in the US and ask them about what it would cost to cover me individually and I got quote from $ 1,400 to $ 1,800 for the lowest priced HMO prices for a fully healthy 25-30 year old male , non-smoking , non-drinking , no-preconditions .
These prices were direct from the provider themselves and I was surprised that they quoted me so much above what the New York State Insurance Department for Health Care Plans [ state.ny.us ] had listed on their web site.Freelancers Union or Local Chamber of CommerceBe aware that the health plans offered at least in New York State around the mid 2005 's by the FreelancersUnion.org [ freelancersunion.org ] were not exactly cheap nor good , they offered HIP HMO which was the lowest rated HMO with the higher complaint count according to the NYS Insurance Department for Health Care Plans and they wanted $ 700 for individual only and over $ 1,000 for family .
HIP had a series of corruption and accounting issues that were public and incompetence that was n't but was know by folks that worked there , some were friends.They did offer a pretty good " discount " plan for Dental by Guardian for ~ $ 50 per month that did have pretty good rates for procedures , such as \ % 50 off for a root canal and crown , and really low costs of $ 12 for composite molar fillings with multiple faces being done.Now Freelancer 's Union has expanded and they offer PPO 1,2,3 ( Preferred Provider Organization = You pick your own doctor not from an HMO network ) that are damn expensive at $ 300-500 for individual or $ 800-1,400 for family and HD $ 5K and $ 10K ( High Deductible ~ = Catastrophic Health Problem ) plans that are still quite expensive at $ 200-300 for individual or $ 550-900 for a family.I 've been with and have used Freelancer 's Unions dental plan but not the health plan and I did think that they offered such a great deal and savings .
Their plans are expensive and they are not really a union they are a for-profit company that is just reselling you insurance !
They do not run their business very efficiently or very well with multiple cases of screw ups every year when it comes time to renew the plans and select your new plans , such as two years ago when they did n't do re-enrollment for a whole month after the deadline since they screwed up .
They run a fully paperless frontend for you but from the back office work they must deal with reams of it .
Just be careful and weary of this so called " union " since they are not one ! Uninsured Option ! I decided to give up on HMO or PPO health insurance because it 's just too insanely expensive at $ 900- $ 1,400 for coverage .
That is more money that my biggest expense that is rent .
It is an insane amount of money for a self-employed individual making due with a few clients and non-steady income.The United States is a horrible place to live without be subservient to a corporation who holds their benefits and insurance plans over you like an indentured servant since if you start and family and decide to leave their good graces or are no longer desired you 're in the path of bankruptcy for even non-lethal health problems or accidents .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've been a contractor and consultant for many years and I've had to provide my own insurance for many years.COBRA = Up to 18-months at Full Corporate &amp; Personal Payment + ~2\% Administrative FeesJust to let you know that coverage under COBRA [wikipedia.org] is not always good since you have to pay your part of the premium, the company's part of the premium, and also an added administrative fee so you're paying an additional premium for coverage that is now costing you twice or much more.Independent Coverage from Major US HMO (Aetna, Oxford, Blue Cross/Shield, etc.
) = $1,400 - $1,800 per MonthFor shits and giggles I decided to call and research the major insurance companies in New York state in the US and ask them about what it would cost to cover me individually and I got quote from $1,400 to $1,800 for the lowest priced HMO prices for a fully healthy 25-30 year old male, non-smoking, non-drinking, no-preconditions.
These prices were direct from the provider themselves and I was surprised that they quoted me so much above what the New York State Insurance Department for Health Care Plans [state.ny.us] had listed on their web site.Freelancers Union or Local Chamber of CommerceBe aware that the health plans offered at least in New York State around the mid 2005's by the FreelancersUnion.org [freelancersunion.org] were not exactly cheap nor good, they offered HIP HMO which was the lowest rated HMO with the higher complaint count according to the NYS Insurance Department for Health Care Plans and they wanted $700 for individual only and over $1,000 for family.
HIP had a series of corruption and accounting issues that were public and incompetence that wasn't but was know by folks that worked there, some were friends.They did offer a pretty good "discount" plan for Dental by Guardian for ~$50 per month that did have pretty good rates for procedures, such as \%50 off for a root canal and crown, and really low costs of $12 for composite molar fillings with multiple faces being done.Now Freelancer's Union has expanded and they offer PPO 1,2,3 (Preferred Provider Organization = You pick your own doctor not from an HMO network) that are damn expensive at $300-500 for individual or $800-1,400 for family and HD $5K and $10K (High Deductible ~= Catastrophic Health Problem) plans that are still quite expensive at $200-300 for individual or $550-900 for a family.I've been with and have used Freelancer's Unions dental plan but not the health plan and I did think that they offered such a great deal and savings.
Their plans are expensive and they are not really a union they are a for-profit company that is just reselling you insurance!
They do not run their business very efficiently or very well with multiple cases of screw ups every year when it comes time to renew the plans and select your new plans, such as two years ago when they didn't do re-enrollment for a whole month after the deadline since they screwed up.
They run a fully paperless frontend for you but from the back office work they must deal with reams of it.
Just be careful and weary of this so called "union" since they are not one!Uninsured Option!I decided to give up on HMO or PPO health insurance because it's just too insanely expensive at $900-$1,400 for coverage.
That is more money that my biggest expense that is rent.
It is an insane amount of money for a self-employed individual making due with a few clients and non-steady income.The United States is a horrible place to live without be subservient to a corporation who holds their benefits and insurance plans over you like an indentured servant since if you start and family and decide to leave their good graces or are no longer desired you're in the path of bankruptcy for even non-lethal health problems or accidents.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230984</id>
	<title>Re:doesn't that make you boiling mad?</title>
	<author>jollespm</author>
	<datestamp>1266861900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've asked the same question and the response was basically "insurance is the problem, not the answer". Yes, while I agree health care costs seem outrageous in the US, until they are brought under control, health insurance is necessary if you don't want to go bankrupt when you get sick.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've asked the same question and the response was basically " insurance is the problem , not the answer " .
Yes , while I agree health care costs seem outrageous in the US , until they are brought under control , health insurance is necessary if you do n't want to go bankrupt when you get sick .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've asked the same question and the response was basically "insurance is the problem, not the answer".
Yes, while I agree health care costs seem outrageous in the US, until they are brought under control, health insurance is necessary if you don't want to go bankrupt when you get sick.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230810</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31242862</id>
	<title>Re:Move where?</title>
	<author>kauttapiste</author>
	<datestamp>1266929280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How about a nice warm country like Thailand? I was just there and happened to hurt my foot on some sharp rocks on the beach. Went to the local health clinic (not a hospital, just a couple of nurses there) and was treated within 10mins. The only cost was the price of the bandages needed, which amounted to about 2&euro;. Went there everyday to have the cut disinfected and I was always greeted with a smile. On the last day left some more money in the donation box.</p><p>Specialized health care will of course be a lot more expensive but should still be a whole lot cheaper than in US or ye olde socialist Europe, but just as effective. And not to mention that the friendliness of the staff is on a completely different level.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How about a nice warm country like Thailand ?
I was just there and happened to hurt my foot on some sharp rocks on the beach .
Went to the local health clinic ( not a hospital , just a couple of nurses there ) and was treated within 10mins .
The only cost was the price of the bandages needed , which amounted to about 2    .
Went there everyday to have the cut disinfected and I was always greeted with a smile .
On the last day left some more money in the donation box.Specialized health care will of course be a lot more expensive but should still be a whole lot cheaper than in US or ye olde socialist Europe , but just as effective .
And not to mention that the friendliness of the staff is on a completely different level .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about a nice warm country like Thailand?
I was just there and happened to hurt my foot on some sharp rocks on the beach.
Went to the local health clinic (not a hospital, just a couple of nurses there) and was treated within 10mins.
The only cost was the price of the bandages needed, which amounted to about 2€.
Went there everyday to have the cut disinfected and I was always greeted with a smile.
On the last day left some more money in the donation box.Specialized health care will of course be a lot more expensive but should still be a whole lot cheaper than in US or ye olde socialist Europe, but just as effective.
And not to mention that the friendliness of the staff is on a completely different level.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230754</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31235038</id>
	<title>Try a non-profit health insurance provider</title>
	<author>ac7xc</author>
	<datestamp>1266831000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext> My option was to find a non-profit health insurance company for my health insurance. Make sure that you do not omit anything in the application. For children you will most likely need to go over their medical records with a doctor/nurse, because sometimes doctors or nurses will write something down and not tell a parent or guardian. Also if a child has been to a ER go over those records also.</htmltext>
<tokenext>My option was to find a non-profit health insurance company for my health insurance .
Make sure that you do not omit anything in the application .
For children you will most likely need to go over their medical records with a doctor/nurse , because sometimes doctors or nurses will write something down and not tell a parent or guardian .
Also if a child has been to a ER go over those records also .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> My option was to find a non-profit health insurance company for my health insurance.
Make sure that you do not omit anything in the application.
For children you will most likely need to go over their medical records with a doctor/nurse, because sometimes doctors or nurses will write something down and not tell a parent or guardian.
Also if a child has been to a ER go over those records also.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31237608</id>
	<title>An actual answer</title>
	<author>mmmmbeer</author>
	<datestamp>1266839460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>To begin with, keep in mind that all insurance is designed to make money off of you; it is a business, after all.  Over the long run, you will almost always end up worse off (financially, that is) by buying insurance.  So, why do you still want it?  Simple - you need insurance to cover any instances where you can't pay for treatment yourself.  How large this amount is depends on how much you earn and how good you are with your money.</p><p>Imagine you don't buy insurance, and instead you take the same amount of money (as your premiums would be), and put it in a bank.  You save that money until you need it for health care.  Odds are that account will never get emptied.  This is the premise that the insurance companies count on for their profits.  But they're dealing with a large number of cases, so they can expect their results to conform to statistics, while you're dealing with only a small number (you and your family) and don't want to take the chance of being a statistical outlier.  So you probably don't want to do this.</p><p>So instead, imagine you buy relatively cheap insurance, and put the leftover (the difference between what you do pay and what you might pay for more expensive insurance) into the bank.  Then you pay for the things you can, but anything really expensive, the insurance company ends up covering.  You're still likely to keep a lot of money in that bank account, but you're also covered in case something bad happens.</p><p>Turns out, this can be a really good idea.  So good, in fact, that the government wants to help you do it.  If you have the right insurance plan (a high-deductible plan), you can open a special account that lets you save and spend money tax-free for health reasons.  This is called a Health Savings Account, or HSA.  It's similar to an IRA, but you can spend the money whenever you want, as long as it's for health-related costs.  If you can qualify for one of these, you probably ought to do it.</p><p>So what are the down sides?  First, you have to qualify.  I don't remember all the rules about it offhand, but there are numerous reasons why you might be unable to get an HSA, the most notible one being if you have an opportunity to join an existing health plan, such as through work.  Second, you have to be able to handle your money.  The HSA helps, but some people just can't manage their money properly, and might land themselves in trouble if they can't keep anything saved up.  Third, you have to be able to deal with insurance companies.  This last one isn't really any different from any other insurance, though.</p><p>And the up sides?  Lower insurance premiums.  A tax-free investment (any interest earned is also tax-free, and you never have to spend the money if you don't want to).  Still having coverage if something major happens.  Not having your mother nagging you about how she worries because you don't have coverage - some people call it peace of mind.  Also, you will still get any "benefits" of being part of a health plan (eg. lower prices for doctors visits, cheaper prescriptions, etc).</p><p>So, that's it.  I hope this helps.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>To begin with , keep in mind that all insurance is designed to make money off of you ; it is a business , after all .
Over the long run , you will almost always end up worse off ( financially , that is ) by buying insurance .
So , why do you still want it ?
Simple - you need insurance to cover any instances where you ca n't pay for treatment yourself .
How large this amount is depends on how much you earn and how good you are with your money.Imagine you do n't buy insurance , and instead you take the same amount of money ( as your premiums would be ) , and put it in a bank .
You save that money until you need it for health care .
Odds are that account will never get emptied .
This is the premise that the insurance companies count on for their profits .
But they 're dealing with a large number of cases , so they can expect their results to conform to statistics , while you 're dealing with only a small number ( you and your family ) and do n't want to take the chance of being a statistical outlier .
So you probably do n't want to do this.So instead , imagine you buy relatively cheap insurance , and put the leftover ( the difference between what you do pay and what you might pay for more expensive insurance ) into the bank .
Then you pay for the things you can , but anything really expensive , the insurance company ends up covering .
You 're still likely to keep a lot of money in that bank account , but you 're also covered in case something bad happens.Turns out , this can be a really good idea .
So good , in fact , that the government wants to help you do it .
If you have the right insurance plan ( a high-deductible plan ) , you can open a special account that lets you save and spend money tax-free for health reasons .
This is called a Health Savings Account , or HSA .
It 's similar to an IRA , but you can spend the money whenever you want , as long as it 's for health-related costs .
If you can qualify for one of these , you probably ought to do it.So what are the down sides ?
First , you have to qualify .
I do n't remember all the rules about it offhand , but there are numerous reasons why you might be unable to get an HSA , the most notible one being if you have an opportunity to join an existing health plan , such as through work .
Second , you have to be able to handle your money .
The HSA helps , but some people just ca n't manage their money properly , and might land themselves in trouble if they ca n't keep anything saved up .
Third , you have to be able to deal with insurance companies .
This last one is n't really any different from any other insurance , though.And the up sides ?
Lower insurance premiums .
A tax-free investment ( any interest earned is also tax-free , and you never have to spend the money if you do n't want to ) .
Still having coverage if something major happens .
Not having your mother nagging you about how she worries because you do n't have coverage - some people call it peace of mind .
Also , you will still get any " benefits " of being part of a health plan ( eg .
lower prices for doctors visits , cheaper prescriptions , etc ) .So , that 's it .
I hope this helps .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To begin with, keep in mind that all insurance is designed to make money off of you; it is a business, after all.
Over the long run, you will almost always end up worse off (financially, that is) by buying insurance.
So, why do you still want it?
Simple - you need insurance to cover any instances where you can't pay for treatment yourself.
How large this amount is depends on how much you earn and how good you are with your money.Imagine you don't buy insurance, and instead you take the same amount of money (as your premiums would be), and put it in a bank.
You save that money until you need it for health care.
Odds are that account will never get emptied.
This is the premise that the insurance companies count on for their profits.
But they're dealing with a large number of cases, so they can expect their results to conform to statistics, while you're dealing with only a small number (you and your family) and don't want to take the chance of being a statistical outlier.
So you probably don't want to do this.So instead, imagine you buy relatively cheap insurance, and put the leftover (the difference between what you do pay and what you might pay for more expensive insurance) into the bank.
Then you pay for the things you can, but anything really expensive, the insurance company ends up covering.
You're still likely to keep a lot of money in that bank account, but you're also covered in case something bad happens.Turns out, this can be a really good idea.
So good, in fact, that the government wants to help you do it.
If you have the right insurance plan (a high-deductible plan), you can open a special account that lets you save and spend money tax-free for health reasons.
This is called a Health Savings Account, or HSA.
It's similar to an IRA, but you can spend the money whenever you want, as long as it's for health-related costs.
If you can qualify for one of these, you probably ought to do it.So what are the down sides?
First, you have to qualify.
I don't remember all the rules about it offhand, but there are numerous reasons why you might be unable to get an HSA, the most notible one being if you have an opportunity to join an existing health plan, such as through work.
Second, you have to be able to handle your money.
The HSA helps, but some people just can't manage their money properly, and might land themselves in trouble if they can't keep anything saved up.
Third, you have to be able to deal with insurance companies.
This last one isn't really any different from any other insurance, though.And the up sides?
Lower insurance premiums.
A tax-free investment (any interest earned is also tax-free, and you never have to spend the money if you don't want to).
Still having coverage if something major happens.
Not having your mother nagging you about how she worries because you don't have coverage - some people call it peace of mind.
Also, you will still get any "benefits" of being part of a health plan (eg.
lower prices for doctors visits, cheaper prescriptions, etc).So, that's it.
I hope this helps.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31249268</id>
	<title>Form up your own group and win</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266958620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Do what the corps do.  Form a partnership, sole proprietorship or corporation.  I published in a local newspaper and opened bank accounts in the name of the partnership.  After three months with income into the accounts, and draws into the partner names, I applied for a group plan with a large insurance co of my choosing.  Worked like a charm, I even disclosed truthfully all my pre-existing conditions since they can't deny individual coverage within the group.  You can even have a group of two (you and your spouse).  Yeah, beat them at their own game.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do what the corps do .
Form a partnership , sole proprietorship or corporation .
I published in a local newspaper and opened bank accounts in the name of the partnership .
After three months with income into the accounts , and draws into the partner names , I applied for a group plan with a large insurance co of my choosing .
Worked like a charm , I even disclosed truthfully all my pre-existing conditions since they ca n't deny individual coverage within the group .
You can even have a group of two ( you and your spouse ) .
Yeah , beat them at their own game .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Do what the corps do.
Form a partnership, sole proprietorship or corporation.
I published in a local newspaper and opened bank accounts in the name of the partnership.
After three months with income into the accounts, and draws into the partner names, I applied for a group plan with a large insurance co of my choosing.
Worked like a charm, I even disclosed truthfully all my pre-existing conditions since they can't deny individual coverage within the group.
You can even have a group of two (you and your spouse).
Yeah, beat them at their own game.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231030</id>
	<title>Re:Move where?</title>
	<author>amorsen</author>
	<datestamp>1266862020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Seriously - If I was willing to move out of the U.S. and good health care was on my list of needs, where should I go?</p></div><p>I think you will find it harder to be allowed immigration than you expect. Depending on where you go of course, but your options are probably quite limited.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Seriously - If I was willing to move out of the U.S. and good health care was on my list of needs , where should I go ? I think you will find it harder to be allowed immigration than you expect .
Depending on where you go of course , but your options are probably quite limited .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seriously - If I was willing to move out of the U.S. and good health care was on my list of needs, where should I go?I think you will find it harder to be allowed immigration than you expect.
Depending on where you go of course, but your options are probably quite limited.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230754</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31236588</id>
	<title>Solo W2</title>
	<author>durdur</author>
	<datestamp>1266835740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>One way to get group insurance (and other benefits) as a consultant is to run your consulting income through Solo W-2 (<a href="http://www.solow2.com/" title="solow2.com">http://www.solow2.com/</a> [solow2.com]). They take a cut (a fairly modest one). Downsides: their plan is expensive and they only want as employees people with substantial consulting income ($60K up).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>One way to get group insurance ( and other benefits ) as a consultant is to run your consulting income through Solo W-2 ( http : //www.solow2.com/ [ solow2.com ] ) .
They take a cut ( a fairly modest one ) .
Downsides : their plan is expensive and they only want as employees people with substantial consulting income ( $ 60K up ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One way to get group insurance (and other benefits) as a consultant is to run your consulting income through Solo W-2 (http://www.solow2.com/ [solow2.com]).
They take a cut (a fairly modest one).
Downsides: their plan is expensive and they only want as employees people with substantial consulting income ($60K up).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230668</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31236392</id>
	<title>doubling the tax rate cheaper than private insuran</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266835200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'd gladly pay what Canadians are paying, BECAUSE IT IS MUCH, MUCH CHEAPER.</p><p>In the past ten years I've twice been eligible for coverage through COBRA, which is always cheaper than an individual plan. The first time, at a relatively low paying job (~$13/hour), COBRA would have cost 47\% of my net income... if I'd had any income. (COBRA allows you to to continue coverage under a former employer's plan.) IOW, at this relatively low paying job, one close to the national average income, the tax rate could have increased by 226\%, and it would still cost less than the cheapest form of private health insurance coverage.</p><p>The second time, while making $72k --higher than the average salary of a law school grad these days-- COBRA would have cost 21\% of my former net income. (This after legislation to reduce COBRA payments.) The second, cheaper time around, my taxes could have increased by 60\%, and it would be cheaper than the cheapest form of private health insurance coverage.</p><p>Here are the figures, see for yourself.</p><p>2002<br>earned wage: ~$13/hour, Gross Income: $27,040,<br>Taxable income:  $19,490 (tax bracket 15\%, taxes of $2923)<br>Net income (taxable - tax): $16,567/year<br>COBRA payments: $650/month, $7800/year, or 28.8\% of taxable income<br>COBRA = 47\% of net income</p><p>2008<br>earned wage: ~$35/hour; gross income ~$72,000<br>Taxable income: $46,987 (tax bracket 25\%, taxes of $11,746)<br>Net income (taxable - tax): $35,241/year<br>COBRA payments: $616.05/mo.; $7392/year.<br>COBRA = 20.9\% of net income</p><p>Does something look wrong with these figures? It should. Even after the "reduced" COBRA rates, private health insurance at its cheapest costs about as much as rent on a 1BR apartment.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd gladly pay what Canadians are paying , BECAUSE IT IS MUCH , MUCH CHEAPER.In the past ten years I 've twice been eligible for coverage through COBRA , which is always cheaper than an individual plan .
The first time , at a relatively low paying job ( ~ $ 13/hour ) , COBRA would have cost 47 \ % of my net income... if I 'd had any income .
( COBRA allows you to to continue coverage under a former employer 's plan .
) IOW , at this relatively low paying job , one close to the national average income , the tax rate could have increased by 226 \ % , and it would still cost less than the cheapest form of private health insurance coverage.The second time , while making $ 72k --higher than the average salary of a law school grad these days-- COBRA would have cost 21 \ % of my former net income .
( This after legislation to reduce COBRA payments .
) The second , cheaper time around , my taxes could have increased by 60 \ % , and it would be cheaper than the cheapest form of private health insurance coverage.Here are the figures , see for yourself.2002earned wage : ~ $ 13/hour , Gross Income : $ 27,040,Taxable income : $ 19,490 ( tax bracket 15 \ % , taxes of $ 2923 ) Net income ( taxable - tax ) : $ 16,567/yearCOBRA payments : $ 650/month , $ 7800/year , or 28.8 \ % of taxable incomeCOBRA = 47 \ % of net income2008earned wage : ~ $ 35/hour ; gross income ~ $ 72,000Taxable income : $ 46,987 ( tax bracket 25 \ % , taxes of $ 11,746 ) Net income ( taxable - tax ) : $ 35,241/yearCOBRA payments : $ 616.05/mo .
; $ 7392/year.COBRA = 20.9 \ % of net incomeDoes something look wrong with these figures ?
It should .
Even after the " reduced " COBRA rates , private health insurance at its cheapest costs about as much as rent on a 1BR apartment .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd gladly pay what Canadians are paying, BECAUSE IT IS MUCH, MUCH CHEAPER.In the past ten years I've twice been eligible for coverage through COBRA, which is always cheaper than an individual plan.
The first time, at a relatively low paying job (~$13/hour), COBRA would have cost 47\% of my net income... if I'd had any income.
(COBRA allows you to to continue coverage under a former employer's plan.
) IOW, at this relatively low paying job, one close to the national average income, the tax rate could have increased by 226\%, and it would still cost less than the cheapest form of private health insurance coverage.The second time, while making $72k --higher than the average salary of a law school grad these days-- COBRA would have cost 21\% of my former net income.
(This after legislation to reduce COBRA payments.
) The second, cheaper time around, my taxes could have increased by 60\%, and it would be cheaper than the cheapest form of private health insurance coverage.Here are the figures, see for yourself.2002earned wage: ~$13/hour, Gross Income: $27,040,Taxable income:  $19,490 (tax bracket 15\%, taxes of $2923)Net income (taxable - tax): $16,567/yearCOBRA payments: $650/month, $7800/year, or 28.8\% of taxable incomeCOBRA = 47\% of net income2008earned wage: ~$35/hour; gross income ~$72,000Taxable income: $46,987 (tax bracket 25\%, taxes of $11,746)Net income (taxable - tax): $35,241/yearCOBRA payments: $616.05/mo.
; $7392/year.COBRA = 20.9\% of net incomeDoes something look wrong with these figures?
It should.
Even after the "reduced" COBRA rates, private health insurance at its cheapest costs about as much as rent on a 1BR apartment.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232268</id>
	<title>Actual suggestion</title>
	<author>TexasLawyer</author>
	<datestamp>1266865140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There are two things to look at when leaving the corporate world and having to handle health insurance on your own. <br> <br>

First, if you are leaving at moderately large employer (20 or more employees) with a group health plan, then when you leave you will have the option to purchase continuation coverage. This is usually called COBRA coverage from the old federal law that created this right, a good time ago - the Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconcilliation Act. <br> <br>

COBRA coverage is a good news/bad news kind of thing, but do stick with me because there is actual good news at the end.  <br> <br>

The good news is that IF your employer has a group health plan and has 20 or more employees, then normally you will have the right to continue on the employer's plan when you leave the company.  This is good, since it means that there is no possible risk of having current health issues excluded from coverage.   <br> <br>

OK - here is the bad news. You have to pay for it, and the employer will almost certainly not subsidize the coverage any longer.  This is where you find out just how expensive health insurance actually is. What you have been paying each month via payroll deduction is usually only a small part of the total cost, which the employer has been subsidizing. Once you are no longer an employee, the employer will stop subsidizing the insurance. This is bad news, because depending your exact circumstances, family size, location, health history etc you may find that the actual cost of your health insurance is something like $1,000 or more a month. <br> <br>

Now, for the other good news. Under recent federal law the cost of COBRA coverage will be subsidized. Basically for now, you will only end up paying about 35\% of the actual cost. The rest is subsidized in the form of a tax credit to your former employer. You cut a check for 35\% of the actual cost, the employer pays the rest of the cost to the health insurance company, and the employer gets a tax credit. If you read up on the premium subsidy you will see articles saying that the subsidy expired. Recent federal law extended the subsidy, so that it is still active. This is  pretty recent development.    <br> <br>

Assuming you are eligible for COBRA this will almost certainly be the best deal you will be able to find. <br> <br>

The second option to look at going forward is a high deductible health plan, coupled with a health savings account. An HSA is something like a 401K for medical costs. All the money you put into the HSA is tax deductible and is yours.  You take a large deductible on the policy, which helps keep the premium costs down and then use the money you have saved into the HSA to pay (tax free) for medical costs not covered by your health insurance.  <br> <br>

While The high deducible health insurance policy will have lower rates than a regular policy, it will still not be cheap. If you are COBRA eligible, the current tax supported premium subsidy is your best bet for now.  <br> <br>

OK, just remember - I am a damn lawyer, but not your damn lawyer. Also, the devil is in the details. COBRA coverage is great stuff for ex-employees. But you have to make sure you submit the paperwork on time, and for goodness sake never, never be late paying your COBRA premiums.</htmltext>
<tokenext>There are two things to look at when leaving the corporate world and having to handle health insurance on your own .
First , if you are leaving at moderately large employer ( 20 or more employees ) with a group health plan , then when you leave you will have the option to purchase continuation coverage .
This is usually called COBRA coverage from the old federal law that created this right , a good time ago - the Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconcilliation Act .
COBRA coverage is a good news/bad news kind of thing , but do stick with me because there is actual good news at the end .
The good news is that IF your employer has a group health plan and has 20 or more employees , then normally you will have the right to continue on the employer 's plan when you leave the company .
This is good , since it means that there is no possible risk of having current health issues excluded from coverage .
OK - here is the bad news .
You have to pay for it , and the employer will almost certainly not subsidize the coverage any longer .
This is where you find out just how expensive health insurance actually is .
What you have been paying each month via payroll deduction is usually only a small part of the total cost , which the employer has been subsidizing .
Once you are no longer an employee , the employer will stop subsidizing the insurance .
This is bad news , because depending your exact circumstances , family size , location , health history etc you may find that the actual cost of your health insurance is something like $ 1,000 or more a month .
Now , for the other good news .
Under recent federal law the cost of COBRA coverage will be subsidized .
Basically for now , you will only end up paying about 35 \ % of the actual cost .
The rest is subsidized in the form of a tax credit to your former employer .
You cut a check for 35 \ % of the actual cost , the employer pays the rest of the cost to the health insurance company , and the employer gets a tax credit .
If you read up on the premium subsidy you will see articles saying that the subsidy expired .
Recent federal law extended the subsidy , so that it is still active .
This is pretty recent development .
Assuming you are eligible for COBRA this will almost certainly be the best deal you will be able to find .
The second option to look at going forward is a high deductible health plan , coupled with a health savings account .
An HSA is something like a 401K for medical costs .
All the money you put into the HSA is tax deductible and is yours .
You take a large deductible on the policy , which helps keep the premium costs down and then use the money you have saved into the HSA to pay ( tax free ) for medical costs not covered by your health insurance .
While The high deducible health insurance policy will have lower rates than a regular policy , it will still not be cheap .
If you are COBRA eligible , the current tax supported premium subsidy is your best bet for now .
OK , just remember - I am a damn lawyer , but not your damn lawyer .
Also , the devil is in the details .
COBRA coverage is great stuff for ex-employees .
But you have to make sure you submit the paperwork on time , and for goodness sake never , never be late paying your COBRA premiums .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are two things to look at when leaving the corporate world and having to handle health insurance on your own.
First, if you are leaving at moderately large employer (20 or more employees) with a group health plan, then when you leave you will have the option to purchase continuation coverage.
This is usually called COBRA coverage from the old federal law that created this right, a good time ago - the Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconcilliation Act.
COBRA coverage is a good news/bad news kind of thing, but do stick with me because there is actual good news at the end.
The good news is that IF your employer has a group health plan and has 20 or more employees, then normally you will have the right to continue on the employer's plan when you leave the company.
This is good, since it means that there is no possible risk of having current health issues excluded from coverage.
OK - here is the bad news.
You have to pay for it, and the employer will almost certainly not subsidize the coverage any longer.
This is where you find out just how expensive health insurance actually is.
What you have been paying each month via payroll deduction is usually only a small part of the total cost, which the employer has been subsidizing.
Once you are no longer an employee, the employer will stop subsidizing the insurance.
This is bad news, because depending your exact circumstances, family size, location, health history etc you may find that the actual cost of your health insurance is something like $1,000 or more a month.
Now, for the other good news.
Under recent federal law the cost of COBRA coverage will be subsidized.
Basically for now, you will only end up paying about 35\% of the actual cost.
The rest is subsidized in the form of a tax credit to your former employer.
You cut a check for 35\% of the actual cost, the employer pays the rest of the cost to the health insurance company, and the employer gets a tax credit.
If you read up on the premium subsidy you will see articles saying that the subsidy expired.
Recent federal law extended the subsidy, so that it is still active.
This is  pretty recent development.
Assuming you are eligible for COBRA this will almost certainly be the best deal you will be able to find.
The second option to look at going forward is a high deductible health plan, coupled with a health savings account.
An HSA is something like a 401K for medical costs.
All the money you put into the HSA is tax deductible and is yours.
You take a large deductible on the policy, which helps keep the premium costs down and then use the money you have saved into the HSA to pay (tax free) for medical costs not covered by your health insurance.
While The high deducible health insurance policy will have lower rates than a regular policy, it will still not be cheap.
If you are COBRA eligible, the current tax supported premium subsidy is your best bet for now.
OK, just remember - I am a damn lawyer, but not your damn lawyer.
Also, the devil is in the details.
COBRA coverage is great stuff for ex-employees.
But you have to make sure you submit the paperwork on time, and for goodness sake never, never be late paying your COBRA premiums.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231832</id>
	<title>COBRA</title>
	<author>q2k</author>
	<datestamp>1266864000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Since you work for a big company you are almost certainly eligible for COBRA coverage. It normally lasts 18 months, however I believe that was temporarily extended to 36 months last year. It ain't cheap, you essentially will be paying the full cost of employer provided coverage, however it is the path of least resistance.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Since you work for a big company you are almost certainly eligible for COBRA coverage .
It normally lasts 18 months , however I believe that was temporarily extended to 36 months last year .
It ai n't cheap , you essentially will be paying the full cost of employer provided coverage , however it is the path of least resistance .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Since you work for a big company you are almost certainly eligible for COBRA coverage.
It normally lasts 18 months, however I believe that was temporarily extended to 36 months last year.
It ain't cheap, you essentially will be paying the full cost of employer provided coverage, however it is the path of least resistance.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31234750</id>
	<title>US HEALTH = SKAM</title>
	<author>Latinhypercube</author>
	<datestamp>1266830160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Notice how mostly only the EMPLOYED are targeted and insured by the health corps. IE. If you are ALREADY HEALTHY ENOUGH TO WORK, you are almost guaranteed Health insurance. SKAM !!!!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Notice how mostly only the EMPLOYED are targeted and insured by the health corps .
IE. If you are ALREADY HEALTHY ENOUGH TO WORK , you are almost guaranteed Health insurance .
SKAM ! ! !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Notice how mostly only the EMPLOYED are targeted and insured by the health corps.
IE. If you are ALREADY HEALTHY ENOUGH TO WORK, you are almost guaranteed Health insurance.
SKAM !!!
!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31234120</id>
	<title>I am on my 6th year of self funded coverage</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266871500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>IF IF IF you and your family have no pre-existing conditions, most major carriers will take you.  I have tracked my costs here in California and they are going up 12\% per year so be prepared for that.  I have Kaiser and they treat me no differently for being self-insured.  Of course the coverage is month-to-month so theoretically I could be dropped at any moment.  Good luck!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>IF IF IF you and your family have no pre-existing conditions , most major carriers will take you .
I have tracked my costs here in California and they are going up 12 \ % per year so be prepared for that .
I have Kaiser and they treat me no differently for being self-insured .
Of course the coverage is month-to-month so theoretically I could be dropped at any moment .
Good luck !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>IF IF IF you and your family have no pre-existing conditions, most major carriers will take you.
I have tracked my costs here in California and they are going up 12\% per year so be prepared for that.
I have Kaiser and they treat me no differently for being self-insured.
Of course the coverage is month-to-month so theoretically I could be dropped at any moment.
Good luck!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231022</id>
	<title>Info from PA</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266862020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I am in PA and I started full-time contract work just over 5 years ago. I have a family and have been using Aetna the whole 5 years. At, first, my premiums were 575 per month, with a deductible for each family member of about 500 for prescriptions, 150 for emergency room, 15 dollar copay, and some other pretty decent stuff. Now, my premium is 1,100 per month,  deductible at 1000, copay 25 and emergency room at 250. I rarely go to the doctor, and if I do get a prescription it is only antibiotics. My wife only goes to normal visits and my kids don't go that often. My youngest has asthma, but we pay for ALL asthma related items out of pocket (since she has been taking floven, the asthma has not been an issue).</p><p>Anyone who says that lowering taxes will help small business is either f***ing retarded or a flat out liar. My taxes have in fact gone DOWN the past couple of years, while my health insurance nearly doubled over the past 5. Guess what else has gone down. RATES. The only reason I am still doing this is that I love it, and I am hoping that I can expand further and take on other workers. I would like to hire them full-time, but with health insurance being what it is I have to take them as a w2 contract or 1099.</p><p>I don't want to crush your "American Dream", but as far as health insurance goes you are basically Effed. And if you are trying to do "research" note that there is no real competition. You either pay out the ass for fairly decent coverage (still with out of pocket expenses) or you pay less with a a crap load of out of pocket expenses. THERE IS NO REAL COMPETITION!!!!!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I am in PA and I started full-time contract work just over 5 years ago .
I have a family and have been using Aetna the whole 5 years .
At , first , my premiums were 575 per month , with a deductible for each family member of about 500 for prescriptions , 150 for emergency room , 15 dollar copay , and some other pretty decent stuff .
Now , my premium is 1,100 per month , deductible at 1000 , copay 25 and emergency room at 250 .
I rarely go to the doctor , and if I do get a prescription it is only antibiotics .
My wife only goes to normal visits and my kids do n't go that often .
My youngest has asthma , but we pay for ALL asthma related items out of pocket ( since she has been taking floven , the asthma has not been an issue ) .Anyone who says that lowering taxes will help small business is either f * * * ing retarded or a flat out liar .
My taxes have in fact gone DOWN the past couple of years , while my health insurance nearly doubled over the past 5 .
Guess what else has gone down .
RATES. The only reason I am still doing this is that I love it , and I am hoping that I can expand further and take on other workers .
I would like to hire them full-time , but with health insurance being what it is I have to take them as a w2 contract or 1099.I do n't want to crush your " American Dream " , but as far as health insurance goes you are basically Effed .
And if you are trying to do " research " note that there is no real competition .
You either pay out the ass for fairly decent coverage ( still with out of pocket expenses ) or you pay less with a a crap load of out of pocket expenses .
THERE IS NO REAL COMPETITION ! ! ! !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am in PA and I started full-time contract work just over 5 years ago.
I have a family and have been using Aetna the whole 5 years.
At, first, my premiums were 575 per month, with a deductible for each family member of about 500 for prescriptions, 150 for emergency room, 15 dollar copay, and some other pretty decent stuff.
Now, my premium is 1,100 per month,  deductible at 1000, copay 25 and emergency room at 250.
I rarely go to the doctor, and if I do get a prescription it is only antibiotics.
My wife only goes to normal visits and my kids don't go that often.
My youngest has asthma, but we pay for ALL asthma related items out of pocket (since she has been taking floven, the asthma has not been an issue).Anyone who says that lowering taxes will help small business is either f***ing retarded or a flat out liar.
My taxes have in fact gone DOWN the past couple of years, while my health insurance nearly doubled over the past 5.
Guess what else has gone down.
RATES. The only reason I am still doing this is that I love it, and I am hoping that I can expand further and take on other workers.
I would like to hire them full-time, but with health insurance being what it is I have to take them as a w2 contract or 1099.I don't want to crush your "American Dream", but as far as health insurance goes you are basically Effed.
And if you are trying to do "research" note that there is no real competition.
You either pay out the ass for fairly decent coverage (still with out of pocket expenses) or you pay less with a a crap load of out of pocket expenses.
THERE IS NO REAL COMPETITION!!!!
!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31241096</id>
	<title>Went back to work to get more reliable insurance</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266863940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was quasi-retired but the cost of health care for me and my wife and three kids was over $20k a year in California. Both my wife and I had been denied, her for a preexisting condition and myself for my weight. I eventually I got the expensive coverage after jumping through many hoops but worry that after any given year that they may deny coverage and I'll end up with a gap in coverage. It bothered me enough that I went back to work to get guaranteed coverage...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was quasi-retired but the cost of health care for me and my wife and three kids was over $ 20k a year in California .
Both my wife and I had been denied , her for a preexisting condition and myself for my weight .
I eventually I got the expensive coverage after jumping through many hoops but worry that after any given year that they may deny coverage and I 'll end up with a gap in coverage .
It bothered me enough that I went back to work to get guaranteed coverage.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was quasi-retired but the cost of health care for me and my wife and three kids was over $20k a year in California.
Both my wife and I had been denied, her for a preexisting condition and myself for my weight.
I eventually I got the expensive coverage after jumping through many hoops but worry that after any given year that they may deny coverage and I'll end up with a gap in coverage.
It bothered me enough that I went back to work to get guaranteed coverage...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231262</id>
	<title>Re:Just forget paying</title>
	<author>k10quaint</author>
	<datestamp>1266862560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Same thing with car and homeowners insurance. Both are a total waste of your time. You never need them and the insurance companies win. Just avoid having bad things happen to you and you will come out ahead.<br>
<br>
Yes I was kidding.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Same thing with car and homeowners insurance .
Both are a total waste of your time .
You never need them and the insurance companies win .
Just avoid having bad things happen to you and you will come out ahead .
Yes I was kidding .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Same thing with car and homeowners insurance.
Both are a total waste of your time.
You never need them and the insurance companies win.
Just avoid having bad things happen to you and you will come out ahead.
Yes I was kidding.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230848</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31238468</id>
	<title>NEW HEALTHCARE BOOK TO HELP UNINSURED</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266843780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My husband and I are both self-employed and paid for our own health insurance policy for years until we realized that we were paying more for the monthly premiums than the insurance company was paying for our care - much more! We canceled our policy 8 years ago and haven't looked back yet. In fact we've found several ways of ensuring our family (which includes the two of us and our two tween boys)gets the best care available at prices we can afford. We barter, bargain, negotiate, shop around and do whatever it takes - it's just become a way of life for us. We've become much more aware of what goes into our healthcare and what comes out - in fact I believe that we get better care now than when an HMO dictated our health decisions.</p><p>In fact we've learned so much that I've written a book on it. BARGAINING FOR OUR LIVES - BY JENNIFER HEYNS is all about successfully navigating the world of healthcare without insurance. It's got great advice, stories and tips for finding the best quality care at affordable prices. People with insurance should read it, too - there's so much you take for granted when an HMO pays for things. You can see more about the book, including and excerpt at my site: www.JenniferHeyns.com and the book can be ordered on CreateSpace.com or Amazon.com.</p><p>Good luck to you!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My husband and I are both self-employed and paid for our own health insurance policy for years until we realized that we were paying more for the monthly premiums than the insurance company was paying for our care - much more !
We canceled our policy 8 years ago and have n't looked back yet .
In fact we 've found several ways of ensuring our family ( which includes the two of us and our two tween boys ) gets the best care available at prices we can afford .
We barter , bargain , negotiate , shop around and do whatever it takes - it 's just become a way of life for us .
We 've become much more aware of what goes into our healthcare and what comes out - in fact I believe that we get better care now than when an HMO dictated our health decisions.In fact we 've learned so much that I 've written a book on it .
BARGAINING FOR OUR LIVES - BY JENNIFER HEYNS is all about successfully navigating the world of healthcare without insurance .
It 's got great advice , stories and tips for finding the best quality care at affordable prices .
People with insurance should read it , too - there 's so much you take for granted when an HMO pays for things .
You can see more about the book , including and excerpt at my site : www.JenniferHeyns.com and the book can be ordered on CreateSpace.com or Amazon.com.Good luck to you !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My husband and I are both self-employed and paid for our own health insurance policy for years until we realized that we were paying more for the monthly premiums than the insurance company was paying for our care - much more!
We canceled our policy 8 years ago and haven't looked back yet.
In fact we've found several ways of ensuring our family (which includes the two of us and our two tween boys)gets the best care available at prices we can afford.
We barter, bargain, negotiate, shop around and do whatever it takes - it's just become a way of life for us.
We've become much more aware of what goes into our healthcare and what comes out - in fact I believe that we get better care now than when an HMO dictated our health decisions.In fact we've learned so much that I've written a book on it.
BARGAINING FOR OUR LIVES - BY JENNIFER HEYNS is all about successfully navigating the world of healthcare without insurance.
It's got great advice, stories and tips for finding the best quality care at affordable prices.
People with insurance should read it, too - there's so much you take for granted when an HMO pays for things.
You can see more about the book, including and excerpt at my site: www.JenniferHeyns.com and the book can be ordered on CreateSpace.com or Amazon.com.Good luck to you!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230802</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266861420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I am curious which provinces still charge a monthly premium.  They've been dropped in Alberta, and I thought our system was the exception (in having said fees), rather than the rule...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I am curious which provinces still charge a monthly premium .
They 've been dropped in Alberta , and I thought our system was the exception ( in having said fees ) , rather than the rule.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am curious which provinces still charge a monthly premium.
They've been dropped in Alberta, and I thought our system was the exception (in having said fees), rather than the rule...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230608</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233200</id>
	<title>Re:I did the same for a while...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266868560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> Indentured servitude is what I'm experiencing when 40\% of my paycheck goes to pay for medical care and other services for OTHER people besides myself and my family.</p></div><p>One day you may find yourself on the receiving end of a chronic illness. You may lose your job and health insurance. And there will be people bitching about their tax dollars being used to treat YOU. Please refuse treatment and save America and your fellow taxpayers some money.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Indentured servitude is what I 'm experiencing when 40 \ % of my paycheck goes to pay for medical care and other services for OTHER people besides myself and my family.One day you may find yourself on the receiving end of a chronic illness .
You may lose your job and health insurance .
And there will be people bitching about their tax dollars being used to treat YOU .
Please refuse treatment and save America and your fellow taxpayers some money .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> Indentured servitude is what I'm experiencing when 40\% of my paycheck goes to pay for medical care and other services for OTHER people besides myself and my family.One day you may find yourself on the receiving end of a chronic illness.
You may lose your job and health insurance.
And there will be people bitching about their tax dollars being used to treat YOU.
Please refuse treatment and save America and your fellow taxpayers some money.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231522</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233712</id>
	<title>Nothing OR A Huge Mountain</title>
	<author>b4upoo</author>
	<datestamp>1266870240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>       Even if all seems to go easy as pie you are still vulnerable. For example if you are in excellent health and your wife and your children are also perfect your rates will only be a pain in the rump. But God forbid that any one of you has a medical issue that just might be costly in the future as you will be dropped like a rock or your rates will be so high that you were wish you were Bill Gates.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; And it gets worse. In some states you can easily die if you can not pay. There is no real safety net in some states and I suspect that in the states that normally do offer aid that they are offering far less during these hard times.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Now here is the really twisted part. If you have an emergency as defined by the hospital and you have to be admitted your insurance can dictate what you get for care. But if you have no insurance and are poor the care that you get may be far better than if you actually did have insurance as the doctors are not restrained by your insurance limits. The catch is that things like cancer are not qualifiers as an emergency. So you can rot before getting care.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The only answer that has any hope of working is single payer, government provided, health care. As long as the medical industry can reach into your pocket, the insurance companies pocket and the government's pocket the system will remain screwed up. In essence you can be a slave to your job simply over the medical insurance issues.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Even if all seems to go easy as pie you are still vulnerable .
For example if you are in excellent health and your wife and your children are also perfect your rates will only be a pain in the rump .
But God forbid that any one of you has a medical issue that just might be costly in the future as you will be dropped like a rock or your rates will be so high that you were wish you were Bill Gates .
              And it gets worse .
In some states you can easily die if you can not pay .
There is no real safety net in some states and I suspect that in the states that normally do offer aid that they are offering far less during these hard times .
              Now here is the really twisted part .
If you have an emergency as defined by the hospital and you have to be admitted your insurance can dictate what you get for care .
But if you have no insurance and are poor the care that you get may be far better than if you actually did have insurance as the doctors are not restrained by your insurance limits .
The catch is that things like cancer are not qualifiers as an emergency .
So you can rot before getting care .
              The only answer that has any hope of working is single payer , government provided , health care .
As long as the medical industry can reach into your pocket , the insurance companies pocket and the government 's pocket the system will remain screwed up .
In essence you can be a slave to your job simply over the medical insurance issues .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>       Even if all seems to go easy as pie you are still vulnerable.
For example if you are in excellent health and your wife and your children are also perfect your rates will only be a pain in the rump.
But God forbid that any one of you has a medical issue that just might be costly in the future as you will be dropped like a rock or your rates will be so high that you were wish you were Bill Gates.
              And it gets worse.
In some states you can easily die if you can not pay.
There is no real safety net in some states and I suspect that in the states that normally do offer aid that they are offering far less during these hard times.
              Now here is the really twisted part.
If you have an emergency as defined by the hospital and you have to be admitted your insurance can dictate what you get for care.
But if you have no insurance and are poor the care that you get may be far better than if you actually did have insurance as the doctors are not restrained by your insurance limits.
The catch is that things like cancer are not qualifiers as an emergency.
So you can rot before getting care.
              The only answer that has any hope of working is single payer, government provided, health care.
As long as the medical industry can reach into your pocket, the insurance companies pocket and the government's pocket the system will remain screwed up.
In essence you can be a slave to your job simply over the medical insurance issues.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232154</id>
	<title>Re:HSA</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266864900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>10K pre-tax in an HSA....under which tax code?  The limit has been in the 5k-6k region for the past few years (increasing slightly each year).  Read http://www.hsacenter.com/2010-HSA-Contribution-Limits.php and http://www.fordharrison.com/shownews.aspx?show=4866 (top 2 google search results).  I am surprised you werent audited or this wasn't flagged by your tax-preparer (software or human).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>10K pre-tax in an HSA....under which tax code ?
The limit has been in the 5k-6k region for the past few years ( increasing slightly each year ) .
Read http : //www.hsacenter.com/2010-HSA-Contribution-Limits.php and http : //www.fordharrison.com/shownews.aspx ? show = 4866 ( top 2 google search results ) .
I am surprised you werent audited or this was n't flagged by your tax-preparer ( software or human ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>10K pre-tax in an HSA....under which tax code?
The limit has been in the 5k-6k region for the past few years (increasing slightly each year).
Read http://www.hsacenter.com/2010-HSA-Contribution-Limits.php and http://www.fordharrison.com/shownews.aspx?show=4866 (top 2 google search results).
I am surprised you werent audited or this wasn't flagged by your tax-preparer (software or human).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230888</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232086</id>
	<title>Re:I did the same for a while...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266864720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Because it helps society as a whole, you greedy, selfish prick.  When you have a healthy work force, good roads, and a safe neighborhood because of police and fire services, you have a stronger commerce, and generally happier and healthier society.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Because it helps society as a whole , you greedy , selfish prick .
When you have a healthy work force , good roads , and a safe neighborhood because of police and fire services , you have a stronger commerce , and generally happier and healthier society .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Because it helps society as a whole, you greedy, selfish prick.
When you have a healthy work force, good roads, and a safe neighborhood because of police and fire services, you have a stronger commerce, and generally happier and healthier society.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231522</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31234840</id>
	<title>Re:doesn't that make you boiling mad?</title>
	<author>Latinhypercube</author>
	<datestamp>1266830460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If someone opposes health care reform in the US they are either 1) Stupid and easily manipulated (that is the vast majority of Americans, also the same group that are feverishly religious ) or 2) a Rich, corporate dick sucking cunt.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If someone opposes health care reform in the US they are either 1 ) Stupid and easily manipulated ( that is the vast majority of Americans , also the same group that are feverishly religious ) or 2 ) a Rich , corporate dick sucking cunt .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If someone opposes health care reform in the US they are either 1) Stupid and easily manipulated (that is the vast majority of Americans, also the same group that are feverishly religious ) or 2) a Rich, corporate dick sucking cunt.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230810</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233762</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266870480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There is a difference between a raging sociopath and a completely greedy asshole?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is a difference between a raging sociopath and a completely greedy asshole ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is a difference between a raging sociopath and a completely greedy asshole?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231286</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231882</id>
	<title>my experience with private insurance</title>
	<author>jdanilso</author>
	<datestamp>1266864120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I had a stint of several years without corporate insurance.  The situation is grim and I can only tell you what I ended up doing.</p><p>I too had a family (3 kids and a wife).  I found a private plan with Blue Cross that cost around $1200/month and considered it a steal.  (Although I was not affected, I heard horror stories about individuals who were unable to get private insurance at any cost.)   The coverage was similar to my prior corporate plan but with higher deductibles and more gate-keeping by our primary care physician.</p><p>After a year of this I looked around for an alternative and moved to a high-deductible plan with Aetna (deductibles were $5k/person; $15K/family) and opened an HSA.  I contributed the maximum allowed to the HSA each year  (note, this is not a FSA!).  For the remaining years this was the approach I took and it worked well but no one got seriously ill, we didn't need any hospitalization, and only used a hospital once for my daughter's broken foot. For the duration I was with Aetna's high-deductible plan,  they paid nothing, but my cost was only $612/month and I got the tax benefits of the HSA.</p><p>Absent a health plan you are paying retail for all medical services vs. the negotiated cost your insurer has obtained.  You still end up paying a lot (all?)  out-of-pocket but at a reduced rate.   The same applies to prescription drugs.  This negotiated cost business is the secret sauce of the industry.  You go to your doctor and he charges you $100 for the office visit and $300 for an x-ray. But Aetna has negotiated these fees to be $65 and $125 respectively which is what you end up paying unless you've reached your $5K deductible.  If you've got the money in your HSA you pay it from there using pre-tax dollars.   If you don't have any insurance (or the doctor doesn't take your plan) then you pay the whole retail price ($400 in this example).</p><p>We had no dental nor eye care coverage for the duration but both can be paid using the HSA account.</p><p>In both policies a pregnancy was specifically excluded but we had finished our family by then so it was not an issue for us.</p><p>I hope this helps.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I had a stint of several years without corporate insurance .
The situation is grim and I can only tell you what I ended up doing.I too had a family ( 3 kids and a wife ) .
I found a private plan with Blue Cross that cost around $ 1200/month and considered it a steal .
( Although I was not affected , I heard horror stories about individuals who were unable to get private insurance at any cost .
) The coverage was similar to my prior corporate plan but with higher deductibles and more gate-keeping by our primary care physician.After a year of this I looked around for an alternative and moved to a high-deductible plan with Aetna ( deductibles were $ 5k/person ; $ 15K/family ) and opened an HSA .
I contributed the maximum allowed to the HSA each year ( note , this is not a FSA ! ) .
For the remaining years this was the approach I took and it worked well but no one got seriously ill , we did n't need any hospitalization , and only used a hospital once for my daughter 's broken foot .
For the duration I was with Aetna 's high-deductible plan , they paid nothing , but my cost was only $ 612/month and I got the tax benefits of the HSA.Absent a health plan you are paying retail for all medical services vs. the negotiated cost your insurer has obtained .
You still end up paying a lot ( all ?
) out-of-pocket but at a reduced rate .
The same applies to prescription drugs .
This negotiated cost business is the secret sauce of the industry .
You go to your doctor and he charges you $ 100 for the office visit and $ 300 for an x-ray .
But Aetna has negotiated these fees to be $ 65 and $ 125 respectively which is what you end up paying unless you 've reached your $ 5K deductible .
If you 've got the money in your HSA you pay it from there using pre-tax dollars .
If you do n't have any insurance ( or the doctor does n't take your plan ) then you pay the whole retail price ( $ 400 in this example ) .We had no dental nor eye care coverage for the duration but both can be paid using the HSA account.In both policies a pregnancy was specifically excluded but we had finished our family by then so it was not an issue for us.I hope this helps .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I had a stint of several years without corporate insurance.
The situation is grim and I can only tell you what I ended up doing.I too had a family (3 kids and a wife).
I found a private plan with Blue Cross that cost around $1200/month and considered it a steal.
(Although I was not affected, I heard horror stories about individuals who were unable to get private insurance at any cost.
)   The coverage was similar to my prior corporate plan but with higher deductibles and more gate-keeping by our primary care physician.After a year of this I looked around for an alternative and moved to a high-deductible plan with Aetna (deductibles were $5k/person; $15K/family) and opened an HSA.
I contributed the maximum allowed to the HSA each year  (note, this is not a FSA!).
For the remaining years this was the approach I took and it worked well but no one got seriously ill, we didn't need any hospitalization, and only used a hospital once for my daughter's broken foot.
For the duration I was with Aetna's high-deductible plan,  they paid nothing, but my cost was only $612/month and I got the tax benefits of the HSA.Absent a health plan you are paying retail for all medical services vs. the negotiated cost your insurer has obtained.
You still end up paying a lot (all?
)  out-of-pocket but at a reduced rate.
The same applies to prescription drugs.
This negotiated cost business is the secret sauce of the industry.
You go to your doctor and he charges you $100 for the office visit and $300 for an x-ray.
But Aetna has negotiated these fees to be $65 and $125 respectively which is what you end up paying unless you've reached your $5K deductible.
If you've got the money in your HSA you pay it from there using pre-tax dollars.
If you don't have any insurance (or the doctor doesn't take your plan) then you pay the whole retail price ($400 in this example).We had no dental nor eye care coverage for the duration but both can be paid using the HSA account.In both policies a pregnancy was specifically excluded but we had finished our family by then so it was not an issue for us.I hope this helps.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31239708</id>
	<title>It totally depends on where you live...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266851340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm an insurance broker specializing in individual and group health insurance.  The laws on individual insurance vary from state to state.  Somebody's experience finding insurance in New York will be different when compared to somebody in California or Oregon or Texas or where ever.</p><p>Your best bet is to find a broker located near you, who knows the local medical groups, hospital and other providers, and who knows what insurance companies they work with.  The broker needs to represent all of the available companies, not just a few.  He or she should also have been in this business for a number of years...personally, I've been doing it for over 25 years.</p><p>Coming off of a group policy, you'll be offered the opportunity to continue coverage under Cobra.  It's important to understand that Cobra is NOT a separate policy; rather it allows you to stay on your old company's plan as if you are still an employee.  You can keep Cobra for up to 18 months.  You pay what your old company pays for coverage, plus 2\% for administrative expenses.  If your separation from the old company is involuntary, then your Cobra premium is subsidized by the Federal government for a limited period of time - your net cost will be only 35\% of the actual premium.  This is by far the cheapest way to go.  If your separation is voluntary, then you'll pay full freight.</p><p>Cobra is guaranteed.  You can't be declined for any medical conditions.  If you have a sick family member who is currently on your plan, they can take cobra, while you can purchase a different policy.</p><p>I could go on, but as I said at the beginning, find a good broker.   He should be able to go over this with you and help you decide the best way to go.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm an insurance broker specializing in individual and group health insurance .
The laws on individual insurance vary from state to state .
Somebody 's experience finding insurance in New York will be different when compared to somebody in California or Oregon or Texas or where ever.Your best bet is to find a broker located near you , who knows the local medical groups , hospital and other providers , and who knows what insurance companies they work with .
The broker needs to represent all of the available companies , not just a few .
He or she should also have been in this business for a number of years...personally , I 've been doing it for over 25 years.Coming off of a group policy , you 'll be offered the opportunity to continue coverage under Cobra .
It 's important to understand that Cobra is NOT a separate policy ; rather it allows you to stay on your old company 's plan as if you are still an employee .
You can keep Cobra for up to 18 months .
You pay what your old company pays for coverage , plus 2 \ % for administrative expenses .
If your separation from the old company is involuntary , then your Cobra premium is subsidized by the Federal government for a limited period of time - your net cost will be only 35 \ % of the actual premium .
This is by far the cheapest way to go .
If your separation is voluntary , then you 'll pay full freight.Cobra is guaranteed .
You ca n't be declined for any medical conditions .
If you have a sick family member who is currently on your plan , they can take cobra , while you can purchase a different policy.I could go on , but as I said at the beginning , find a good broker .
He should be able to go over this with you and help you decide the best way to go .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm an insurance broker specializing in individual and group health insurance.
The laws on individual insurance vary from state to state.
Somebody's experience finding insurance in New York will be different when compared to somebody in California or Oregon or Texas or where ever.Your best bet is to find a broker located near you, who knows the local medical groups, hospital and other providers, and who knows what insurance companies they work with.
The broker needs to represent all of the available companies, not just a few.
He or she should also have been in this business for a number of years...personally, I've been doing it for over 25 years.Coming off of a group policy, you'll be offered the opportunity to continue coverage under Cobra.
It's important to understand that Cobra is NOT a separate policy; rather it allows you to stay on your old company's plan as if you are still an employee.
You can keep Cobra for up to 18 months.
You pay what your old company pays for coverage, plus 2\% for administrative expenses.
If your separation from the old company is involuntary, then your Cobra premium is subsidized by the Federal government for a limited period of time - your net cost will be only 35\% of the actual premium.
This is by far the cheapest way to go.
If your separation is voluntary, then you'll pay full freight.Cobra is guaranteed.
You can't be declined for any medical conditions.
If you have a sick family member who is currently on your plan, they can take cobra, while you can purchase a different policy.I could go on, but as I said at the beginning, find a good broker.
He should be able to go over this with you and help you decide the best way to go.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231550</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>techno\_dan</author>
	<datestamp>1266863220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Obviously you have no idea about accounting then. We have universal healthcare by making sure the haves help the have nots. That means that those who make more, pay more taxes. As well, any business has to contribute to health care as well through corporate taxes.

We also do not allow gouging up here which exists in droves in the US. Only a reasonable profit should be made from helping the sick. So the cost of a procedure up here is much cheaper to perform than south of the border.

So stop assuming and educate yourself.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Obviously you have no idea about accounting then .
We have universal healthcare by making sure the haves help the have nots .
That means that those who make more , pay more taxes .
As well , any business has to contribute to health care as well through corporate taxes .
We also do not allow gouging up here which exists in droves in the US .
Only a reasonable profit should be made from helping the sick .
So the cost of a procedure up here is much cheaper to perform than south of the border .
So stop assuming and educate yourself .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Obviously you have no idea about accounting then.
We have universal healthcare by making sure the haves help the have nots.
That means that those who make more, pay more taxes.
As well, any business has to contribute to health care as well through corporate taxes.
We also do not allow gouging up here which exists in droves in the US.
Only a reasonable profit should be made from helping the sick.
So the cost of a procedure up here is much cheaper to perform than south of the border.
So stop assuming and educate yourself.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230874</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232242</id>
	<title>No health insurance.</title>
	<author>pubwvj</author>
	<datestamp>1266865140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Welcome to reality.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Welcome to reality .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Welcome to reality.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31240260</id>
	<title>Dutyu to protect it's citizens?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266855720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If a government's first duty is to protect it's citizens, then how does providing health care not fit this definition? Especially given that there is define provable physical harm in NOT providing it?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If a government 's first duty is to protect it 's citizens , then how does providing health care not fit this definition ?
Especially given that there is define provable physical harm in NOT providing it ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If a government's first duty is to protect it's citizens, then how does providing health care not fit this definition?
Especially given that there is define provable physical harm in NOT providing it?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230592</id>
	<title>Step 1.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266860760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Move to any 1st world country not the USA.<br>There is no step 2.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Move to any 1st world country not the USA.There is no step 2 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Move to any 1st world country not the USA.There is no step 2.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31240812</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Smurf</author>
	<datestamp>1266860940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wait a moment... you are saying that the total healthcare spending in Canada is around $160 billion per year for a population of 33 million... that's $4850 per person per year. (I'm going to ignore the fact that those must be Canadian dollars since both currencies are almost equal).</p><p>In the US the total health expenditures are around $2.3 trillion for a population of less than 310 million. That's over $7400 per person per year, in American dollars.</p><p>So we spend over 50\% more than them. And while they are mostly extremely happy with the healthcare they receive and love rubbing it on our faces, we have a sweet&amp;sour perception of our healthcare: some of us receive the best in the world, but an alarming number of us have an amazingly crappy service, and millions have no health insurance at all and only get healthcare when they are in critical condition.</p><p>We are obviously doing a really craptastic job with healthcare in the US....</p><p>(And yes, the missing $150 billion come from taxes so ultimately they came from the Canadian citizens' pockets, while most of the $2.3 trillion came from the pockets of the American citizens without passing through the tax system. But the fact remains that they ultimately pay far less and get much more, which is the real point of the GP.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Wait a moment... you are saying that the total healthcare spending in Canada is around $ 160 billion per year for a population of 33 million... that 's $ 4850 per person per year .
( I 'm going to ignore the fact that those must be Canadian dollars since both currencies are almost equal ) .In the US the total health expenditures are around $ 2.3 trillion for a population of less than 310 million .
That 's over $ 7400 per person per year , in American dollars.So we spend over 50 \ % more than them .
And while they are mostly extremely happy with the healthcare they receive and love rubbing it on our faces , we have a sweet&amp;sour perception of our healthcare : some of us receive the best in the world , but an alarming number of us have an amazingly crappy service , and millions have no health insurance at all and only get healthcare when they are in critical condition.We are obviously doing a really craptastic job with healthcare in the US.... ( And yes , the missing $ 150 billion come from taxes so ultimately they came from the Canadian citizens ' pockets , while most of the $ 2.3 trillion came from the pockets of the American citizens without passing through the tax system .
But the fact remains that they ultimately pay far less and get much more , which is the real point of the GP .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wait a moment... you are saying that the total healthcare spending in Canada is around $160 billion per year for a population of 33 million... that's $4850 per person per year.
(I'm going to ignore the fact that those must be Canadian dollars since both currencies are almost equal).In the US the total health expenditures are around $2.3 trillion for a population of less than 310 million.
That's over $7400 per person per year, in American dollars.So we spend over 50\% more than them.
And while they are mostly extremely happy with the healthcare they receive and love rubbing it on our faces, we have a sweet&amp;sour perception of our healthcare: some of us receive the best in the world, but an alarming number of us have an amazingly crappy service, and millions have no health insurance at all and only get healthcare when they are in critical condition.We are obviously doing a really craptastic job with healthcare in the US....(And yes, the missing $150 billion come from taxes so ultimately they came from the Canadian citizens' pockets, while most of the $2.3 trillion came from the pockets of the American citizens without passing through the tax system.
But the fact remains that they ultimately pay far less and get much more, which is the real point of the GP.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230874</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231442</id>
	<title>My take...</title>
	<author>MaWeiTao</author>
	<datestamp>1266862980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Go to eHealthInsurance.com. Although my company covers most of my insurance costs they cover only very little for family members. While the plan is generally pretty good it's also expensive. Not wanting to deal with high monthly costs I went to that site and compared plans, finding one that was rated well but priced at a monthly rate I could manage.</p><p>I shouldn't get into this because inevitably I'll get modded into oblivion for not following the crowd. Inevitably once we get to talking about healthcare someone has to start claiming that the American healthcare system is crap compared to the rest of the world. They'll bring up the famed infant mortality rate although it's well known that the US counts infant mortality differently than Europe resulting in higher numbers. The death rate in the US is pretty good, better than some European nations and worse than others. But there are a lot of factors that play into death rates. Cancer survivorship in the US is among the highest in the world; I have the benefit of working with a cancer survivorship charity from time to time and am privy to a lot of insightful stats. Then there's the staggering amount of medical research constantly being done in the states.</p><p>But I don't need to bring up stats, because being European most of my family lives in Europe. So I know how the average person lives there. First off, whenever we get to talking about politics and social issues the complaints are virtually identical to what we hear in the US. Extremely high taxes, benefits being cut, immigration problems, corruption, the list goes on. The issues with healthcare vary from country to country, but waiting lists are pretty much a universal issue. I have an uncle who was diagnosed with prostate cancer last year. Had he gone through the system he would have had to wait 6 months for surgery. His doctor strongly recommended he pay out of pocket and get the surgery done immediately. This is something that actually happens on a fairly regular basis. Then there's the issue of governments cutting benefits because they just don't have the money to sustain them. I have an uncle who has needed on-going treatment which has been cut by the government forcing him to get private health insurance to augment the government's plan. I have tons of examples, I could go all day listing issues they've encountered. And the thing is, sure they've got socialized health insurance, but most good there are also twice as expensive as they are here. Every time they visit the states it's like a spending spree buying what they can because it's so much cheaper here.</p><p>That said, the US healthcare has a fundamental issue. It's too damn expensive. There's a very real danger of a person going broke just paying for medical treatment. And insurance companies absolutely are screwing us badly. Something needs to be done and honestly I don't know what it is. How do you cut costs across the board, I mean everything related to the healthcare industry is expensive. How do we force down costs without bringing about rationing. I mean, it even touches on matters like education. I think there's something seriously out of whack with the pricing of services in the US. When it costs $100+ an hour to have your car worked on by some inept mechanic it's not surprising that someone like a doctor is charging far, far more for his work. It's pretty hard to start haggling on price when you're laid out on a stretcher and are more concerned with your affliction being dealt with.</p><p>My big concern is that it seems like politicians are more concerned with making favors to special interests and forcing their will on us than they are with actually fixing the system. But from everything I've seen around the world I'm not really convinced that just going with a socialized system is going to do the job or even make things better.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Go to eHealthInsurance.com .
Although my company covers most of my insurance costs they cover only very little for family members .
While the plan is generally pretty good it 's also expensive .
Not wanting to deal with high monthly costs I went to that site and compared plans , finding one that was rated well but priced at a monthly rate I could manage.I should n't get into this because inevitably I 'll get modded into oblivion for not following the crowd .
Inevitably once we get to talking about healthcare someone has to start claiming that the American healthcare system is crap compared to the rest of the world .
They 'll bring up the famed infant mortality rate although it 's well known that the US counts infant mortality differently than Europe resulting in higher numbers .
The death rate in the US is pretty good , better than some European nations and worse than others .
But there are a lot of factors that play into death rates .
Cancer survivorship in the US is among the highest in the world ; I have the benefit of working with a cancer survivorship charity from time to time and am privy to a lot of insightful stats .
Then there 's the staggering amount of medical research constantly being done in the states.But I do n't need to bring up stats , because being European most of my family lives in Europe .
So I know how the average person lives there .
First off , whenever we get to talking about politics and social issues the complaints are virtually identical to what we hear in the US .
Extremely high taxes , benefits being cut , immigration problems , corruption , the list goes on .
The issues with healthcare vary from country to country , but waiting lists are pretty much a universal issue .
I have an uncle who was diagnosed with prostate cancer last year .
Had he gone through the system he would have had to wait 6 months for surgery .
His doctor strongly recommended he pay out of pocket and get the surgery done immediately .
This is something that actually happens on a fairly regular basis .
Then there 's the issue of governments cutting benefits because they just do n't have the money to sustain them .
I have an uncle who has needed on-going treatment which has been cut by the government forcing him to get private health insurance to augment the government 's plan .
I have tons of examples , I could go all day listing issues they 've encountered .
And the thing is , sure they 've got socialized health insurance , but most good there are also twice as expensive as they are here .
Every time they visit the states it 's like a spending spree buying what they can because it 's so much cheaper here.That said , the US healthcare has a fundamental issue .
It 's too damn expensive .
There 's a very real danger of a person going broke just paying for medical treatment .
And insurance companies absolutely are screwing us badly .
Something needs to be done and honestly I do n't know what it is .
How do you cut costs across the board , I mean everything related to the healthcare industry is expensive .
How do we force down costs without bringing about rationing .
I mean , it even touches on matters like education .
I think there 's something seriously out of whack with the pricing of services in the US .
When it costs $ 100 + an hour to have your car worked on by some inept mechanic it 's not surprising that someone like a doctor is charging far , far more for his work .
It 's pretty hard to start haggling on price when you 're laid out on a stretcher and are more concerned with your affliction being dealt with.My big concern is that it seems like politicians are more concerned with making favors to special interests and forcing their will on us than they are with actually fixing the system .
But from everything I 've seen around the world I 'm not really convinced that just going with a socialized system is going to do the job or even make things better .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Go to eHealthInsurance.com.
Although my company covers most of my insurance costs they cover only very little for family members.
While the plan is generally pretty good it's also expensive.
Not wanting to deal with high monthly costs I went to that site and compared plans, finding one that was rated well but priced at a monthly rate I could manage.I shouldn't get into this because inevitably I'll get modded into oblivion for not following the crowd.
Inevitably once we get to talking about healthcare someone has to start claiming that the American healthcare system is crap compared to the rest of the world.
They'll bring up the famed infant mortality rate although it's well known that the US counts infant mortality differently than Europe resulting in higher numbers.
The death rate in the US is pretty good, better than some European nations and worse than others.
But there are a lot of factors that play into death rates.
Cancer survivorship in the US is among the highest in the world; I have the benefit of working with a cancer survivorship charity from time to time and am privy to a lot of insightful stats.
Then there's the staggering amount of medical research constantly being done in the states.But I don't need to bring up stats, because being European most of my family lives in Europe.
So I know how the average person lives there.
First off, whenever we get to talking about politics and social issues the complaints are virtually identical to what we hear in the US.
Extremely high taxes, benefits being cut, immigration problems, corruption, the list goes on.
The issues with healthcare vary from country to country, but waiting lists are pretty much a universal issue.
I have an uncle who was diagnosed with prostate cancer last year.
Had he gone through the system he would have had to wait 6 months for surgery.
His doctor strongly recommended he pay out of pocket and get the surgery done immediately.
This is something that actually happens on a fairly regular basis.
Then there's the issue of governments cutting benefits because they just don't have the money to sustain them.
I have an uncle who has needed on-going treatment which has been cut by the government forcing him to get private health insurance to augment the government's plan.
I have tons of examples, I could go all day listing issues they've encountered.
And the thing is, sure they've got socialized health insurance, but most good there are also twice as expensive as they are here.
Every time they visit the states it's like a spending spree buying what they can because it's so much cheaper here.That said, the US healthcare has a fundamental issue.
It's too damn expensive.
There's a very real danger of a person going broke just paying for medical treatment.
And insurance companies absolutely are screwing us badly.
Something needs to be done and honestly I don't know what it is.
How do you cut costs across the board, I mean everything related to the healthcare industry is expensive.
How do we force down costs without bringing about rationing.
I mean, it even touches on matters like education.
I think there's something seriously out of whack with the pricing of services in the US.
When it costs $100+ an hour to have your car worked on by some inept mechanic it's not surprising that someone like a doctor is charging far, far more for his work.
It's pretty hard to start haggling on price when you're laid out on a stretcher and are more concerned with your affliction being dealt with.My big concern is that it seems like politicians are more concerned with making favors to special interests and forcing their will on us than they are with actually fixing the system.
But from everything I've seen around the world I'm not really convinced that just going with a socialized system is going to do the job or even make things better.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230904</id>
	<title>When I became self-employed</title>
	<author>mj01nir</author>
	<datestamp>1266861660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I got an individual plan from the same provider that my company had been with. It was really pretty simple. Not cheap, but simple.<br>
<br>
I'm damned glad that I did, too. My wife was diagnosed with breast cancer a couple of years later (she's fine now). We would have been wiped out if not for insurance.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I got an individual plan from the same provider that my company had been with .
It was really pretty simple .
Not cheap , but simple .
I 'm damned glad that I did , too .
My wife was diagnosed with breast cancer a couple of years later ( she 's fine now ) .
We would have been wiped out if not for insurance .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I got an individual plan from the same provider that my company had been with.
It was really pretty simple.
Not cheap, but simple.
I'm damned glad that I did, too.
My wife was diagnosed with breast cancer a couple of years later (she's fine now).
We would have been wiped out if not for insurance.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231468</id>
	<title>Preventive Care</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266863100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Change your diet to less meat and more vegetables, fruits and honey; loose weight, drink non-fluorinated water, drink a lot of herbal teas, exercise daily except one day a week, do some meditation daily for 30 minutes, do voluntary work and go to support groups just to listen to people and be there to emotionally support, that will keep your health tip top.<br>Less fat and carbs in your diet and a smile will keep you young forever.<br>Then do as smooth\_wombat says.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Change your diet to less meat and more vegetables , fruits and honey ; loose weight , drink non-fluorinated water , drink a lot of herbal teas , exercise daily except one day a week , do some meditation daily for 30 minutes , do voluntary work and go to support groups just to listen to people and be there to emotionally support , that will keep your health tip top.Less fat and carbs in your diet and a smile will keep you young forever.Then do as smooth \ _wombat says .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Change your diet to less meat and more vegetables, fruits and honey; loose weight, drink non-fluorinated water, drink a lot of herbal teas, exercise daily except one day a week, do some meditation daily for 30 minutes, do voluntary work and go to support groups just to listen to people and be there to emotionally support, that will keep your health tip top.Less fat and carbs in your diet and a smile will keep you young forever.Then do as smooth\_wombat says.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232664</id>
	<title>Re:doesn't that make you boiling mad?</title>
	<author>tbgreve</author>
	<datestamp>1266866460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Hi. I am a tea bagging red neck. I am a self employed IT consultant. I have great health-care that I pay $312 a month for. I have never been happier. I have never been turned down for anything and have very low, $15, co-pays. Perhaps if they listened to us tea bagging conservative redneck and allow you to shop it across state lines like the Republicans have proposed I could help you get a good deal too.
  If you think health-care is expensive now, just wait until it's free! I know I will enjoy paying for your free ride.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Hi .
I am a tea bagging red neck .
I am a self employed IT consultant .
I have great health-care that I pay $ 312 a month for .
I have never been happier .
I have never been turned down for anything and have very low , $ 15 , co-pays .
Perhaps if they listened to us tea bagging conservative redneck and allow you to shop it across state lines like the Republicans have proposed I could help you get a good deal too .
If you think health-care is expensive now , just wait until it 's free !
I know I will enjoy paying for your free ride .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hi.
I am a tea bagging red neck.
I am a self employed IT consultant.
I have great health-care that I pay $312 a month for.
I have never been happier.
I have never been turned down for anything and have very low, $15, co-pays.
Perhaps if they listened to us tea bagging conservative redneck and allow you to shop it across state lines like the Republicans have proposed I could help you get a good deal too.
If you think health-care is expensive now, just wait until it's free!
I know I will enjoy paying for your free ride.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230810</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31235638</id>
	<title>Join the Army</title>
	<author>sir\_eccles</author>
	<datestamp>1266832800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>or tell your wife to do so.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>or tell your wife to do so .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>or tell your wife to do so.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31237806</id>
	<title>Re:doesn't that make you boiling mad?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266840180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, the (Politicians) do have a better solution (for them) so why change ?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , the ( Politicians ) do have a better solution ( for them ) so why change ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, the (Politicians) do have a better solution (for them) so why change ?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230810</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230772</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Interoperable</author>
	<datestamp>1266861360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Depends on the province; it's often free no matter what your situation is. Contrary to Republican scare ads, it's also of excellent quality provided that you don't go to the emergency room for a cold or a stubbed toe.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Depends on the province ; it 's often free no matter what your situation is .
Contrary to Republican scare ads , it 's also of excellent quality provided that you do n't go to the emergency room for a cold or a stubbed toe .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Depends on the province; it's often free no matter what your situation is.
Contrary to Republican scare ads, it's also of excellent quality provided that you don't go to the emergency room for a cold or a stubbed toe.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230608</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231716</id>
	<title>Several options depending on your health condition</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266863640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Corporations with group plans have bargaining power over the insurance companies, individuals don't. An individual (self-employed) plan will always cost more.<br>Here are the options you have:<br>- Be under-insured: buy the cheapest possible insurance with high deductible for unforeseen events (car accident, appendicitis, etc.). Everything else (doctor visits) pay out of you pocket via an FSA account. I know people doing this and they pay about $5,000/year pre-tax in medical costs (mostly kids going to the doctors, tests, antibiotics - a doctor's visit is about $150 cash, medicine is $200 cash for some infection, etc). This may be cheaper than your co-pays with the corporate plan you have now.<br>- Look into a non-profit health insurance co-op. This is much cheaper and provides excellent coverage. If you have pre-existing conditions you may not get into the co-op.<br>- Be uninsured - when you start your own business and have no or very little income at first, you get more benefits by not buying any insurance at all. Go to the ER for all treatments and through state-sponsored programs for long-term illnesses. Only your income, not savings, are considered when determining eligibility to pay.<br>- If you have a chronic disease and require ongoing treatments/medicine,better stay with your employer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Corporations with group plans have bargaining power over the insurance companies , individuals do n't .
An individual ( self-employed ) plan will always cost more.Here are the options you have : - Be under-insured : buy the cheapest possible insurance with high deductible for unforeseen events ( car accident , appendicitis , etc. ) .
Everything else ( doctor visits ) pay out of you pocket via an FSA account .
I know people doing this and they pay about $ 5,000/year pre-tax in medical costs ( mostly kids going to the doctors , tests , antibiotics - a doctor 's visit is about $ 150 cash , medicine is $ 200 cash for some infection , etc ) .
This may be cheaper than your co-pays with the corporate plan you have now.- Look into a non-profit health insurance co-op .
This is much cheaper and provides excellent coverage .
If you have pre-existing conditions you may not get into the co-op.- Be uninsured - when you start your own business and have no or very little income at first , you get more benefits by not buying any insurance at all .
Go to the ER for all treatments and through state-sponsored programs for long-term illnesses .
Only your income , not savings , are considered when determining eligibility to pay.- If you have a chronic disease and require ongoing treatments/medicine,better stay with your employer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Corporations with group plans have bargaining power over the insurance companies, individuals don't.
An individual (self-employed) plan will always cost more.Here are the options you have:- Be under-insured: buy the cheapest possible insurance with high deductible for unforeseen events (car accident, appendicitis, etc.).
Everything else (doctor visits) pay out of you pocket via an FSA account.
I know people doing this and they pay about $5,000/year pre-tax in medical costs (mostly kids going to the doctors, tests, antibiotics - a doctor's visit is about $150 cash, medicine is $200 cash for some infection, etc).
This may be cheaper than your co-pays with the corporate plan you have now.- Look into a non-profit health insurance co-op.
This is much cheaper and provides excellent coverage.
If you have pre-existing conditions you may not get into the co-op.- Be uninsured - when you start your own business and have no or very little income at first, you get more benefits by not buying any insurance at all.
Go to the ER for all treatments and through state-sponsored programs for long-term illnesses.
Only your income, not savings, are considered when determining eligibility to pay.- If you have a chronic disease and require ongoing treatments/medicine,better stay with your employer.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233572</id>
	<title>Re:HSA</title>
	<author>outlander</author>
	<datestamp>1266869700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Shopping for doctors is, nominally, a rational business activity.</p><p>Note the *noiminally* - in reality, it's not rational. In a lot of situations, people seeing doctors are under significant stress, and shopping for price is less important provision of care and easing of symptoms.  It's a lot like desktop users calling for support - they really don't care where the support comes from.  They just want their problem dealt with.</p><p>WIth desktop users? Let 'em shop around.  Fine - it's not (usually) life and death.  Healthcare IS life and death.</p><p>Forcing sick people to shop around also adds an expenditure of energy which may, in some cases, drain someone who may not have the energy....and it's not malingering.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Shopping for doctors is , nominally , a rational business activity.Note the * noiminally * - in reality , it 's not rational .
In a lot of situations , people seeing doctors are under significant stress , and shopping for price is less important provision of care and easing of symptoms .
It 's a lot like desktop users calling for support - they really do n't care where the support comes from .
They just want their problem dealt with.WIth desktop users ?
Let 'em shop around .
Fine - it 's not ( usually ) life and death .
Healthcare IS life and death.Forcing sick people to shop around also adds an expenditure of energy which may , in some cases , drain someone who may not have the energy....and it 's not malingering .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Shopping for doctors is, nominally, a rational business activity.Note the *noiminally* - in reality, it's not rational.
In a lot of situations, people seeing doctors are under significant stress, and shopping for price is less important provision of care and easing of symptoms.
It's a lot like desktop users calling for support - they really don't care where the support comes from.
They just want their problem dealt with.WIth desktop users?
Let 'em shop around.
Fine - it's not (usually) life and death.
Healthcare IS life and death.Forcing sick people to shop around also adds an expenditure of energy which may, in some cases, drain someone who may not have the energy....and it's not malingering.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230888</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31235566</id>
	<title>Re:Facts.</title>
	<author>CodeBuster</author>
	<datestamp>1266832620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>God people, how can you choose to do nothing about it?</p></div><p>Many polls consistently demonstrate that most Americans are <i>not</i> in favor of doing nothing. However, I often hear people, especially on the left, framing the debate as, "either you agree with our proposed solution 100\% OR you are in favor of doing nothing". This is an obvious straw-man argument. It is more likely, IMHO, that most Americans favor health reform, but <i>not the specific bill proposed by the Dems in Congress</i>. They do not believe that the current bill, as proposed by Congress, will address the core issue which for most Americans is <b> <i>cost</i> </b> and not <b> <i>access</i> </b>. There have been some good suggestions from a variety of sources that, for various reasons (mostly political), have been ignored by the Dems in Congress. The winning solution must convince a majority of Americans that costs will be contained <b>without</b> causing serious damage to quality of care which is actually pretty good right now; albeit expensive.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>God people , how can you choose to do nothing about it ? Many polls consistently demonstrate that most Americans are not in favor of doing nothing .
However , I often hear people , especially on the left , framing the debate as , " either you agree with our proposed solution 100 \ % OR you are in favor of doing nothing " .
This is an obvious straw-man argument .
It is more likely , IMHO , that most Americans favor health reform , but not the specific bill proposed by the Dems in Congress .
They do not believe that the current bill , as proposed by Congress , will address the core issue which for most Americans is cost and not access .
There have been some good suggestions from a variety of sources that , for various reasons ( mostly political ) , have been ignored by the Dems in Congress .
The winning solution must convince a majority of Americans that costs will be contained without causing serious damage to quality of care which is actually pretty good right now ; albeit expensive .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>God people, how can you choose to do nothing about it?Many polls consistently demonstrate that most Americans are not in favor of doing nothing.
However, I often hear people, especially on the left, framing the debate as, "either you agree with our proposed solution 100\% OR you are in favor of doing nothing".
This is an obvious straw-man argument.
It is more likely, IMHO, that most Americans favor health reform, but not the specific bill proposed by the Dems in Congress.
They do not believe that the current bill, as proposed by Congress, will address the core issue which for most Americans is  cost  and not  access .
There have been some good suggestions from a variety of sources that, for various reasons (mostly political), have been ignored by the Dems in Congress.
The winning solution must convince a majority of Americans that costs will be contained without causing serious damage to quality of care which is actually pretty good right now; albeit expensive.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231000</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230810</id>
	<title>doesn't that make you boiling mad?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266861480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>if you're rich, you have no problem</p><p>if you're poor, you have medicaid, and you have no problem</p><p>only if you are a middle class citizen in the united states do you have no healthcare options, and have to do ridiculous gymnastics like the poster above</p><p>how the hell did we arrive at this retarded status quo and why the hell do teabaggers and republicans oppose simple common sense reform of a horrible stituation?</p><p>i can hear all of their criticism of socialized medicine. republicans, teabaggers: i accept and acknowledge all of your criticism of socialized medicine. BUT ITS BETTER THAN WHAT WE CURRENTLY HAVE. do you not see that?</p><p>when you oppose socialized medicine in the usa, because of all the evils of that you see, you merely support a MUCH WORSE STATUS QUO</p><p>are you resisting because you have a better solution? (crickets)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>if you 're rich , you have no problemif you 're poor , you have medicaid , and you have no problemonly if you are a middle class citizen in the united states do you have no healthcare options , and have to do ridiculous gymnastics like the poster abovehow the hell did we arrive at this retarded status quo and why the hell do teabaggers and republicans oppose simple common sense reform of a horrible stituation ? i can hear all of their criticism of socialized medicine .
republicans , teabaggers : i accept and acknowledge all of your criticism of socialized medicine .
BUT ITS BETTER THAN WHAT WE CURRENTLY HAVE .
do you not see that ? when you oppose socialized medicine in the usa , because of all the evils of that you see , you merely support a MUCH WORSE STATUS QUOare you resisting because you have a better solution ?
( crickets )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>if you're rich, you have no problemif you're poor, you have medicaid, and you have no problemonly if you are a middle class citizen in the united states do you have no healthcare options, and have to do ridiculous gymnastics like the poster abovehow the hell did we arrive at this retarded status quo and why the hell do teabaggers and republicans oppose simple common sense reform of a horrible stituation?i can hear all of their criticism of socialized medicine.
republicans, teabaggers: i accept and acknowledge all of your criticism of socialized medicine.
BUT ITS BETTER THAN WHAT WE CURRENTLY HAVE.
do you not see that?when you oppose socialized medicine in the usa, because of all the evils of that you see, you merely support a MUCH WORSE STATUS QUOare you resisting because you have a better solution?
(crickets)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230652</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231072</id>
	<title>Join a professional association?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266862140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Some professional associations offer group health insurance plans, like IEEE.  I don't know how good the coverage is, but it might be worth researching.</p><p>SixD</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Some professional associations offer group health insurance plans , like IEEE .
I do n't know how good the coverage is , but it might be worth researching.SixD</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Some professional associations offer group health insurance plans, like IEEE.
I don't know how good the coverage is, but it might be worth researching.SixD</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233464</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>roman\_mir</author>
	<datestamp>1266869340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>which one am I, let's see: I am a Canadian who is fed up with the Canadian 'health care' system enough, that I don't care about the taxes that I pay there and currently residing in Germany, where I can pay out of pocket for a health care system that actually works.</p><p>I believe US can do much better than Canada, but they have to provide competition to the private insurance companies, that's what public option is - competition to the insanely connected and rich insurance companies that don't pay what they promise to pay.</p><p>Germany has it right: you have public care for people who can't afford private care, but you have private care and you can chose to use it.  I chose this over either Canadian or the US systems at this point.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>which one am I , let 's see : I am a Canadian who is fed up with the Canadian 'health care ' system enough , that I do n't care about the taxes that I pay there and currently residing in Germany , where I can pay out of pocket for a health care system that actually works.I believe US can do much better than Canada , but they have to provide competition to the private insurance companies , that 's what public option is - competition to the insanely connected and rich insurance companies that do n't pay what they promise to pay.Germany has it right : you have public care for people who ca n't afford private care , but you have private care and you can chose to use it .
I chose this over either Canadian or the US systems at this point .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>which one am I, let's see: I am a Canadian who is fed up with the Canadian 'health care' system enough, that I don't care about the taxes that I pay there and currently residing in Germany, where I can pay out of pocket for a health care system that actually works.I believe US can do much better than Canada, but they have to provide competition to the private insurance companies, that's what public option is - competition to the insanely connected and rich insurance companies that don't pay what they promise to pay.Germany has it right: you have public care for people who can't afford private care, but you have private care and you can chose to use it.
I chose this over either Canadian or the US systems at this point.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231286</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31234636</id>
	<title>NASE</title>
	<author>mattsucks</author>
	<datestamp>1266829800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Look into:</p><p>National Association for the Self-Employed: <a href="http://www.nase.org/Home.aspx" title="nase.org">http://www.nase.org/Home.aspx</a> [nase.org]</p><p>I contracted for quite a few years after leaving my Large Corporate Job, and got my family insurance from a local agent who worked for one of NASE's insurance partners.  It was a bit pricey, but on the other hand it covered me in TX and my wife in NM with no argument, something that my CORBA provider wouldn't even consider.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Look into : National Association for the Self-Employed : http : //www.nase.org/Home.aspx [ nase.org ] I contracted for quite a few years after leaving my Large Corporate Job , and got my family insurance from a local agent who worked for one of NASE 's insurance partners .
It was a bit pricey , but on the other hand it covered me in TX and my wife in NM with no argument , something that my CORBA provider would n't even consider .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Look into:National Association for the Self-Employed: http://www.nase.org/Home.aspx [nase.org]I contracted for quite a few years after leaving my Large Corporate Job, and got my family insurance from a local agent who worked for one of NASE's insurance partners.
It was a bit pricey, but on the other hand it covered me in TX and my wife in NM with no argument, something that my CORBA provider wouldn't even consider.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31238292</id>
	<title>Re:doesn't that make you boiling mad?</title>
	<author>dacarr</author>
	<datestamp>1266842820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yanno, it's funny.

I just posted the similar question - this in not so many words.  If people are so up in arms about how universal healthcare in the only first world nation that doesn't have it is going to curve our spines, infect our minds, and stop us from winning the war, they need to come up with a better solution.

One guy had the balls to tell me to either go get a different job or to buy my own insurance.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yanno , it 's funny .
I just posted the similar question - this in not so many words .
If people are so up in arms about how universal healthcare in the only first world nation that does n't have it is going to curve our spines , infect our minds , and stop us from winning the war , they need to come up with a better solution .
One guy had the balls to tell me to either go get a different job or to buy my own insurance .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yanno, it's funny.
I just posted the similar question - this in not so many words.
If people are so up in arms about how universal healthcare in the only first world nation that doesn't have it is going to curve our spines, infect our minds, and stop us from winning the war, they need to come up with a better solution.
One guy had the balls to tell me to either go get a different job or to buy my own insurance.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230810</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232094</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Sir\_Sri</author>
	<datestamp>1266864720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's not free.  It's more efficient.  For comparable outcomes we spend less per capita (both in absolute numbers and as a percentage of GDP).  http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea\_spe\_per\_per-health-spending-per-person, http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/November2009/19/c2310.html, the wiki on US healthcare spending has a nice chart of spending as a \% of GDP etc.  Note:  I would say Norway, Luxembourg, iceland and anything below #20 on the first list cannot be meaningfully compared to the US with any ease.  Luxembourg is too rich and small, iceland too small, and norway has huge mountain of oil wealth for a small country.</p><p>In some senses it is free.  If you're a student, it's free.  If you're poor, it's free.  If you're starting a business that isn't going to make any money for 2 years, it's free.  You don't pay an insurance premium, you don't risk being denied care and if you get cancer 3 times by the time you're 30 but don't have a job, you'll still be covered when you're 31 and not trying to find an insurance company.  I don't pay out of pocket for it, nor do people in the UK france etc.  I can pay out of pocket for extra stuff, a TV in my hospital room, coverage to get a private room in a hospital that sort of thing (and oddly dental, for which in Ontario in canada we have no coverage, the UK does though).  But healthcare fees coming out of taxation means the costs are graduated, if you make a million dollars a year you pay a lot more into healthcare in Canada than your equivalent southern neighbour, but if you're poor, you pay nothing.  And you don't worry about your healthcare coverage when switching jobs, or starting a new business or the like, because it's just covered.  Mostly.  Dental and in some cases pharmaceuticals aren't in canada, which is stupid but whatever.  Is is free in the sense that how much I use the service does not particularly influence my cost.  If I need 1.2 million dollars in care this year, my fee for next year does not go up, if I'm in a high risk category now, my fee does not go up.</p><p>If you go back to that first list, the UK and France have the best ideas.  The UK gets decent coverage for everyone and they do it on the cheap.  The NHS is an extremely cost effective method of delivering decent healthcare.  The french system is, since their summer heatwave crisis that killed thousands of people, arguably the best in the world.  They pay a fairly high amount as a percentage of gdp for that but they get top notch care.  In practice I think the british model is better, mostly because if you set the bar for yourself too high your costs will eventually spiral out of control.  If you set the bar at 'reasonable' costs will grow at reasonable rates.  But that's a philosophical thing.  Canada suffers enormously because we set the bar as 'better than the americans', which is setting a highjump bar around gary colemans ankles.  Whenever something is wrong in canada we get away with saying well it's better than the americans.  Which is true, but the French and british can do better, either better results or more cost effectively?  But we're better off than the americans!  At least having government control means that when healthcare goes badly (see the france thousands of people dying due to heatwave thing) politicians actually take seriously fixing it, because their jobs are on the line if they don't.  The healthcare company is in the business of trying to avoid providing you service, the government is in the business of trying to provide you the most affordable service.</p><p>Minimally competent healthcare reform in the US could save a couple of thousand dollars per person, which is about 4000 per tax payer, it would mean you don't have to pay healthcare, either through your employer or privately, but you would pay higher taxes, on  average.  For the 40 odd million people who don't have care at all (presumably because they can't afford it), it would become free, and people for who have coverage but are poor they'd still be covered.  It would hurt the chairman of GM and his 60K/mo</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's not free .
It 's more efficient .
For comparable outcomes we spend less per capita ( both in absolute numbers and as a percentage of GDP ) .
http : //www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea \ _spe \ _per \ _per-health-spending-per-person , http : //www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/November2009/19/c2310.html , the wiki on US healthcare spending has a nice chart of spending as a \ % of GDP etc .
Note : I would say Norway , Luxembourg , iceland and anything below # 20 on the first list can not be meaningfully compared to the US with any ease .
Luxembourg is too rich and small , iceland too small , and norway has huge mountain of oil wealth for a small country.In some senses it is free .
If you 're a student , it 's free .
If you 're poor , it 's free .
If you 're starting a business that is n't going to make any money for 2 years , it 's free .
You do n't pay an insurance premium , you do n't risk being denied care and if you get cancer 3 times by the time you 're 30 but do n't have a job , you 'll still be covered when you 're 31 and not trying to find an insurance company .
I do n't pay out of pocket for it , nor do people in the UK france etc .
I can pay out of pocket for extra stuff , a TV in my hospital room , coverage to get a private room in a hospital that sort of thing ( and oddly dental , for which in Ontario in canada we have no coverage , the UK does though ) .
But healthcare fees coming out of taxation means the costs are graduated , if you make a million dollars a year you pay a lot more into healthcare in Canada than your equivalent southern neighbour , but if you 're poor , you pay nothing .
And you do n't worry about your healthcare coverage when switching jobs , or starting a new business or the like , because it 's just covered .
Mostly. Dental and in some cases pharmaceuticals are n't in canada , which is stupid but whatever .
Is is free in the sense that how much I use the service does not particularly influence my cost .
If I need 1.2 million dollars in care this year , my fee for next year does not go up , if I 'm in a high risk category now , my fee does not go up.If you go back to that first list , the UK and France have the best ideas .
The UK gets decent coverage for everyone and they do it on the cheap .
The NHS is an extremely cost effective method of delivering decent healthcare .
The french system is , since their summer heatwave crisis that killed thousands of people , arguably the best in the world .
They pay a fairly high amount as a percentage of gdp for that but they get top notch care .
In practice I think the british model is better , mostly because if you set the bar for yourself too high your costs will eventually spiral out of control .
If you set the bar at 'reasonable ' costs will grow at reasonable rates .
But that 's a philosophical thing .
Canada suffers enormously because we set the bar as 'better than the americans ' , which is setting a highjump bar around gary colemans ankles .
Whenever something is wrong in canada we get away with saying well it 's better than the americans .
Which is true , but the French and british can do better , either better results or more cost effectively ?
But we 're better off than the americans !
At least having government control means that when healthcare goes badly ( see the france thousands of people dying due to heatwave thing ) politicians actually take seriously fixing it , because their jobs are on the line if they do n't .
The healthcare company is in the business of trying to avoid providing you service , the government is in the business of trying to provide you the most affordable service.Minimally competent healthcare reform in the US could save a couple of thousand dollars per person , which is about 4000 per tax payer , it would mean you do n't have to pay healthcare , either through your employer or privately , but you would pay higher taxes , on average .
For the 40 odd million people who do n't have care at all ( presumably because they ca n't afford it ) , it would become free , and people for who have coverage but are poor they 'd still be covered .
It would hurt the chairman of GM and his 60K/mo</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's not free.
It's more efficient.
For comparable outcomes we spend less per capita (both in absolute numbers and as a percentage of GDP).
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea\_spe\_per\_per-health-spending-per-person, http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/November2009/19/c2310.html, the wiki on US healthcare spending has a nice chart of spending as a \% of GDP etc.
Note:  I would say Norway, Luxembourg, iceland and anything below #20 on the first list cannot be meaningfully compared to the US with any ease.
Luxembourg is too rich and small, iceland too small, and norway has huge mountain of oil wealth for a small country.In some senses it is free.
If you're a student, it's free.
If you're poor, it's free.
If you're starting a business that isn't going to make any money for 2 years, it's free.
You don't pay an insurance premium, you don't risk being denied care and if you get cancer 3 times by the time you're 30 but don't have a job, you'll still be covered when you're 31 and not trying to find an insurance company.
I don't pay out of pocket for it, nor do people in the UK france etc.
I can pay out of pocket for extra stuff, a TV in my hospital room, coverage to get a private room in a hospital that sort of thing (and oddly dental, for which in Ontario in canada we have no coverage, the UK does though).
But healthcare fees coming out of taxation means the costs are graduated, if you make a million dollars a year you pay a lot more into healthcare in Canada than your equivalent southern neighbour, but if you're poor, you pay nothing.
And you don't worry about your healthcare coverage when switching jobs, or starting a new business or the like, because it's just covered.
Mostly.  Dental and in some cases pharmaceuticals aren't in canada, which is stupid but whatever.
Is is free in the sense that how much I use the service does not particularly influence my cost.
If I need 1.2 million dollars in care this year, my fee for next year does not go up, if I'm in a high risk category now, my fee does not go up.If you go back to that first list, the UK and France have the best ideas.
The UK gets decent coverage for everyone and they do it on the cheap.
The NHS is an extremely cost effective method of delivering decent healthcare.
The french system is, since their summer heatwave crisis that killed thousands of people, arguably the best in the world.
They pay a fairly high amount as a percentage of gdp for that but they get top notch care.
In practice I think the british model is better, mostly because if you set the bar for yourself too high your costs will eventually spiral out of control.
If you set the bar at 'reasonable' costs will grow at reasonable rates.
But that's a philosophical thing.
Canada suffers enormously because we set the bar as 'better than the americans', which is setting a highjump bar around gary colemans ankles.
Whenever something is wrong in canada we get away with saying well it's better than the americans.
Which is true, but the French and british can do better, either better results or more cost effectively?
But we're better off than the americans!
At least having government control means that when healthcare goes badly (see the france thousands of people dying due to heatwave thing) politicians actually take seriously fixing it, because their jobs are on the line if they don't.
The healthcare company is in the business of trying to avoid providing you service, the government is in the business of trying to provide you the most affordable service.Minimally competent healthcare reform in the US could save a couple of thousand dollars per person, which is about 4000 per tax payer, it would mean you don't have to pay healthcare, either through your employer or privately, but you would pay higher taxes, on  average.
For the 40 odd million people who don't have care at all (presumably because they can't afford it), it would become free, and people for who have coverage but are poor they'd still be covered.
It would hurt the chairman of GM and his 60K/mo</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230874</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232986</id>
	<title>Re:Be methodical</title>
	<author>infinite9</author>
	<datestamp>1266867660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>He could join his local Chamber of Commerce as well.  Most offer group plans to members to help address this exact situation.</p></div><p>Everyone says this, but I've never been able to make it work.  Every time I do research into this, I get nowhere.  Please give me a phone number I can call to ask questions and sign up for this.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>He could join his local Chamber of Commerce as well .
Most offer group plans to members to help address this exact situation.Everyone says this , but I 've never been able to make it work .
Every time I do research into this , I get nowhere .
Please give me a phone number I can call to ask questions and sign up for this .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He could join his local Chamber of Commerce as well.
Most offer group plans to members to help address this exact situation.Everyone says this, but I've never been able to make it work.
Every time I do research into this, I get nowhere.
Please give me a phone number I can call to ask questions and sign up for this.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231162</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231314</id>
	<title>COBRA and hope</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266862680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You can currently do COBRA for up to 18 months. This will let you keep your insurance on the same plan through your current company even after you leave. As part of the economic recovery package passed last year it extended how long you can take COBRA from 6 months to 18 months.</p><p>If this is enough time for you to grow your business into having at least 10 employees then you should be able to get a group health plan. There is a caveat on that. Its illegal to discriminate against hiring someone because they are unhealthy but if you hire even one sick person you won't be able to get coverage for ANY of your employees without everyone paying an ungodly fortune if at all. So its illegal to not hire Mr. Sick, but if you do hire Mr. Sick then no one gets health insurance. Health insurance companies aren't in the business of providing health care, they are in the business of maximizing profit. They maximize profit by not covering sick people as much as possible while gathering as much money from healthy people as they can.</p><p>Individual plans are a horrific idea. You buy health insurance not for the $20 co-pay for normal office visits. You buy it so if your kid gets cancer or something horrible that your insurance can pay the $200k + medical bills. Recission is RAMPANT on the individual market. These aren't just anecdotes that poloticians are using to play on heart strings. It is a matter of policy in the health insurance industry. If you or one of your family members gets diagnosed with an expensive disease your health insurance company will thank you for paying your premimums all those years you were healthy by dropping your coverage and throwing you back into the open market with a now uninsurable pre-existing condition.</p><p>It happens. I know someone who was a small business owner on an individual policy, got bone cancer. The individual policy he had through Regence that he had paid on like a good boy for over 5 years dropped him the month after he got diagnosed. He ended up having to liquidate his business and left his family with nothing by the time he died. Unless some kind of health reform passes that makes recission illegal, don't bother with an individual health policy. They ARE USELESS. You're better off just paying for health care out of pocket since these policies won't cover catastrophic expenses.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You can currently do COBRA for up to 18 months .
This will let you keep your insurance on the same plan through your current company even after you leave .
As part of the economic recovery package passed last year it extended how long you can take COBRA from 6 months to 18 months.If this is enough time for you to grow your business into having at least 10 employees then you should be able to get a group health plan .
There is a caveat on that .
Its illegal to discriminate against hiring someone because they are unhealthy but if you hire even one sick person you wo n't be able to get coverage for ANY of your employees without everyone paying an ungodly fortune if at all .
So its illegal to not hire Mr. Sick , but if you do hire Mr. Sick then no one gets health insurance .
Health insurance companies are n't in the business of providing health care , they are in the business of maximizing profit .
They maximize profit by not covering sick people as much as possible while gathering as much money from healthy people as they can.Individual plans are a horrific idea .
You buy health insurance not for the $ 20 co-pay for normal office visits .
You buy it so if your kid gets cancer or something horrible that your insurance can pay the $ 200k + medical bills .
Recission is RAMPANT on the individual market .
These are n't just anecdotes that poloticians are using to play on heart strings .
It is a matter of policy in the health insurance industry .
If you or one of your family members gets diagnosed with an expensive disease your health insurance company will thank you for paying your premimums all those years you were healthy by dropping your coverage and throwing you back into the open market with a now uninsurable pre-existing condition.It happens .
I know someone who was a small business owner on an individual policy , got bone cancer .
The individual policy he had through Regence that he had paid on like a good boy for over 5 years dropped him the month after he got diagnosed .
He ended up having to liquidate his business and left his family with nothing by the time he died .
Unless some kind of health reform passes that makes recission illegal , do n't bother with an individual health policy .
They ARE USELESS .
You 're better off just paying for health care out of pocket since these policies wo n't cover catastrophic expenses .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You can currently do COBRA for up to 18 months.
This will let you keep your insurance on the same plan through your current company even after you leave.
As part of the economic recovery package passed last year it extended how long you can take COBRA from 6 months to 18 months.If this is enough time for you to grow your business into having at least 10 employees then you should be able to get a group health plan.
There is a caveat on that.
Its illegal to discriminate against hiring someone because they are unhealthy but if you hire even one sick person you won't be able to get coverage for ANY of your employees without everyone paying an ungodly fortune if at all.
So its illegal to not hire Mr. Sick, but if you do hire Mr. Sick then no one gets health insurance.
Health insurance companies aren't in the business of providing health care, they are in the business of maximizing profit.
They maximize profit by not covering sick people as much as possible while gathering as much money from healthy people as they can.Individual plans are a horrific idea.
You buy health insurance not for the $20 co-pay for normal office visits.
You buy it so if your kid gets cancer or something horrible that your insurance can pay the $200k + medical bills.
Recission is RAMPANT on the individual market.
These aren't just anecdotes that poloticians are using to play on heart strings.
It is a matter of policy in the health insurance industry.
If you or one of your family members gets diagnosed with an expensive disease your health insurance company will thank you for paying your premimums all those years you were healthy by dropping your coverage and throwing you back into the open market with a now uninsurable pre-existing condition.It happens.
I know someone who was a small business owner on an individual policy, got bone cancer.
The individual policy he had through Regence that he had paid on like a good boy for over 5 years dropped him the month after he got diagnosed.
He ended up having to liquidate his business and left his family with nothing by the time he died.
Unless some kind of health reform passes that makes recission illegal, don't bother with an individual health policy.
They ARE USELESS.
You're better off just paying for health care out of pocket since these policies won't cover catastrophic expenses.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31234422</id>
	<title>Find a business partner and get group rates</title>
	<author>szetlan</author>
	<datestamp>1266872340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You *could* move to another country, but that seems unnecessarily expensive.  Much better, if you already know you want to strike out on your own, is to find a business partner in the same situation, and then the two of you start the business together.  Two separately covered individuals counts as a group, and group health insurance is a) easy to find and b) quite cheap by comparison to private health plans.

I know this, because I left the corporate world (where Multimegabigacorp paid for a part of my health insurance premium) and started my own business (with a single other business partner), and I actually *cut* the cost of insuring my family (me, wife, 2 children; medical + dental, but no vision).  Private health would have been 3-4 times as expensive.  And I have the same coverage!

Alternatively, you can try starting your own company as a franchise or subunit of a larger company that gives you access to group benefits - but the key in the US is to be a business, not an individual.  Small businesses really do get the best tax breaks.

Good luck.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You * could * move to another country , but that seems unnecessarily expensive .
Much better , if you already know you want to strike out on your own , is to find a business partner in the same situation , and then the two of you start the business together .
Two separately covered individuals counts as a group , and group health insurance is a ) easy to find and b ) quite cheap by comparison to private health plans .
I know this , because I left the corporate world ( where Multimegabigacorp paid for a part of my health insurance premium ) and started my own business ( with a single other business partner ) , and I actually * cut * the cost of insuring my family ( me , wife , 2 children ; medical + dental , but no vision ) .
Private health would have been 3-4 times as expensive .
And I have the same coverage !
Alternatively , you can try starting your own company as a franchise or subunit of a larger company that gives you access to group benefits - but the key in the US is to be a business , not an individual .
Small businesses really do get the best tax breaks .
Good luck .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You *could* move to another country, but that seems unnecessarily expensive.
Much better, if you already know you want to strike out on your own, is to find a business partner in the same situation, and then the two of you start the business together.
Two separately covered individuals counts as a group, and group health insurance is a) easy to find and b) quite cheap by comparison to private health plans.
I know this, because I left the corporate world (where Multimegabigacorp paid for a part of my health insurance premium) and started my own business (with a single other business partner), and I actually *cut* the cost of insuring my family (me, wife, 2 children; medical + dental, but no vision).
Private health would have been 3-4 times as expensive.
And I have the same coverage!
Alternatively, you can try starting your own company as a franchise or subunit of a larger company that gives you access to group benefits - but the key in the US is to be a business, not an individual.
Small businesses really do get the best tax breaks.
Good luck.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31234022</id>
	<title>Re:HSA</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266871260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I bought an HSA when a few years ago my company raised insurance premiums. They had a plan and were self insured so basically we just paid for what the cost was divided by number of employees. We had some employees that enjoyed the outdoors and got into a lot of accidents that raised the costs for everyone. My family plan was $700/mo.</p><p>So I went out on my own and got an high deductible HSA from Humana. It was about $200 a month for a family of 4. It had a $10k deductible so basically you are paying for your own health care unless you have something major happen. Then it paid 100\% above the $10k. The good part is you can put up to $10k pre-tax into the HSA savings account. You can then pay your health bills using pre-tax money. They had a PPO which means they have a network of doctors you can use that they have a negotiated prices. But you can use any doctor you want.</p><p>What I found is that we shopped around. You would be amazed at the difference in prices if you say you will pay at the time of service. Some doctors wouldn't quote us a price for the visit so we didn't go there. Also we shopped around for drug prices and found that most of the big pharmacies will match prices.</p></div><p>This. however it's much more  convenient to bitch and moan about how much better the world would be if the government just robbed from the productive to pay for the (healthcare, housing, food<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... etc) of the non productive.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I bought an HSA when a few years ago my company raised insurance premiums .
They had a plan and were self insured so basically we just paid for what the cost was divided by number of employees .
We had some employees that enjoyed the outdoors and got into a lot of accidents that raised the costs for everyone .
My family plan was $ 700/mo.So I went out on my own and got an high deductible HSA from Humana .
It was about $ 200 a month for a family of 4 .
It had a $ 10k deductible so basically you are paying for your own health care unless you have something major happen .
Then it paid 100 \ % above the $ 10k .
The good part is you can put up to $ 10k pre-tax into the HSA savings account .
You can then pay your health bills using pre-tax money .
They had a PPO which means they have a network of doctors you can use that they have a negotiated prices .
But you can use any doctor you want.What I found is that we shopped around .
You would be amazed at the difference in prices if you say you will pay at the time of service .
Some doctors would n't quote us a price for the visit so we did n't go there .
Also we shopped around for drug prices and found that most of the big pharmacies will match prices.This .
however it 's much more convenient to bitch and moan about how much better the world would be if the government just robbed from the productive to pay for the ( healthcare , housing , food ... etc ) of the non productive .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I bought an HSA when a few years ago my company raised insurance premiums.
They had a plan and were self insured so basically we just paid for what the cost was divided by number of employees.
We had some employees that enjoyed the outdoors and got into a lot of accidents that raised the costs for everyone.
My family plan was $700/mo.So I went out on my own and got an high deductible HSA from Humana.
It was about $200 a month for a family of 4.
It had a $10k deductible so basically you are paying for your own health care unless you have something major happen.
Then it paid 100\% above the $10k.
The good part is you can put up to $10k pre-tax into the HSA savings account.
You can then pay your health bills using pre-tax money.
They had a PPO which means they have a network of doctors you can use that they have a negotiated prices.
But you can use any doctor you want.What I found is that we shopped around.
You would be amazed at the difference in prices if you say you will pay at the time of service.
Some doctors wouldn't quote us a price for the visit so we didn't go there.
Also we shopped around for drug prices and found that most of the big pharmacies will match prices.This.
however it's much more  convenient to bitch and moan about how much better the world would be if the government just robbed from the productive to pay for the (healthcare, housing, food ... etc) of the non productive.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230888</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230952</id>
	<title>Re:Move where?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266861780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Come to Canada, we'd love to have you.  Taxes aren't actually higher here than in the US.  You've got 10 provinces and 3 territories to choose from and each one is a little different.  True we don't have tropical weather, but the coasts are milder.  I live in Thunder Bay http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunder\_Bay , the surrounding area is beautiful, only 45 miles to the border if you want to visit home, and real estate is absolutely cheap.  A nice home for $150000, free universal healthcare, an airport with direct flights to Toronto by several airlines 4 times daily.  Yep it's great here.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Come to Canada , we 'd love to have you .
Taxes are n't actually higher here than in the US .
You 've got 10 provinces and 3 territories to choose from and each one is a little different .
True we do n't have tropical weather , but the coasts are milder .
I live in Thunder Bay http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunder \ _Bay , the surrounding area is beautiful , only 45 miles to the border if you want to visit home , and real estate is absolutely cheap .
A nice home for $ 150000 , free universal healthcare , an airport with direct flights to Toronto by several airlines 4 times daily .
Yep it 's great here .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Come to Canada, we'd love to have you.
Taxes aren't actually higher here than in the US.
You've got 10 provinces and 3 territories to choose from and each one is a little different.
True we don't have tropical weather, but the coasts are milder.
I live in Thunder Bay http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunder\_Bay , the surrounding area is beautiful, only 45 miles to the border if you want to visit home, and real estate is absolutely cheap.
A nice home for $150000, free universal healthcare, an airport with direct flights to Toronto by several airlines 4 times daily.
Yep it's great here.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230754</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231528</id>
	<title>High-deductible, catastrophic is the way to go</title>
	<author>davide marney</author>
	<datestamp>1266863220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't know if they're still available, but when I went out on my own for a few years, I opted to pay most of my health care out-of-pocket.  I bought a high-deductible, catastrophic insurance plan that would cover any medical expense that would have bankrupted my family.</p><p>It was a wonderful experience.  The catastrophic insurance rates were very low.  Over three years, the amount I spent out-of-pocket was about 70\% of the amount I had been spending on an employer-supported plan.  There were no forms to fill out.  No paperwork, except at tax time, when I could claim a medical deduction for the only time in my life.  We could visit any doctor we wished.  Some doctors even gave us a small discount for paying up front.</p><p>In my experience, my family has never needed more than a tiny fraction of the health care services available in the employer plans I've been forced to participate in.  I wouldn't mind moving permanently to a high-deductible, catastrophic system at all.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't know if they 're still available , but when I went out on my own for a few years , I opted to pay most of my health care out-of-pocket .
I bought a high-deductible , catastrophic insurance plan that would cover any medical expense that would have bankrupted my family.It was a wonderful experience .
The catastrophic insurance rates were very low .
Over three years , the amount I spent out-of-pocket was about 70 \ % of the amount I had been spending on an employer-supported plan .
There were no forms to fill out .
No paperwork , except at tax time , when I could claim a medical deduction for the only time in my life .
We could visit any doctor we wished .
Some doctors even gave us a small discount for paying up front.In my experience , my family has never needed more than a tiny fraction of the health care services available in the employer plans I 've been forced to participate in .
I would n't mind moving permanently to a high-deductible , catastrophic system at all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't know if they're still available, but when I went out on my own for a few years, I opted to pay most of my health care out-of-pocket.
I bought a high-deductible, catastrophic insurance plan that would cover any medical expense that would have bankrupted my family.It was a wonderful experience.
The catastrophic insurance rates were very low.
Over three years, the amount I spent out-of-pocket was about 70\% of the amount I had been spending on an employer-supported plan.
There were no forms to fill out.
No paperwork, except at tax time, when I could claim a medical deduction for the only time in my life.
We could visit any doctor we wished.
Some doctors even gave us a small discount for paying up front.In my experience, my family has never needed more than a tiny fraction of the health care services available in the employer plans I've been forced to participate in.
I wouldn't mind moving permanently to a high-deductible, catastrophic system at all.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230608</id>
	<title>Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266860820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>and enjoy universal health care for about $100 per month for a family of 4, unless you can show economic hardship, and then it's free.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>and enjoy universal health care for about $ 100 per month for a family of 4 , unless you can show economic hardship , and then it 's free .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>and enjoy universal health care for about $100 per month for a family of 4, unless you can show economic hardship, and then it's free.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31238436</id>
	<title>People are very dramatic</title>
	<author>AthleteMusicianNerd</author>
	<datestamp>1266843600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I got a plan through Blue Shield of CA and it cost about $150/month.  It was just as good as the one my current employer provides me with now, and I'm sure they're paying way more than double that.  Thank you Socialism for making me pick up the slack despite the fact that I eat well and exercise.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I got a plan through Blue Shield of CA and it cost about $ 150/month .
It was just as good as the one my current employer provides me with now , and I 'm sure they 're paying way more than double that .
Thank you Socialism for making me pick up the slack despite the fact that I eat well and exercise .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I got a plan through Blue Shield of CA and it cost about $150/month.
It was just as good as the one my current employer provides me with now, and I'm sure they're paying way more than double that.
Thank you Socialism for making me pick up the slack despite the fact that I eat well and exercise.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232828</id>
	<title>Try catastrophe insurance</title>
	<author>mschuyler</author>
	<datestamp>1266867060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This may have been brought up. There are over 400 comments now. When I left the corporate world I found catastrophe insurance for which has a $5K deductible. My reasoning was that I could get full coverage for about $500 per month, or $6K per year. The catastrophe insurance was about $150 per month, or $1800 per year. So I "save" $4200 per year if I don't get sick. If I DO get sick, I pay out $6800 per year, pretty close to what I would have been paying for full coverage. I'm gambling that I don't get sick. It's been almost six years now, knock on wood, and I've saved well over $20K so far. When Medicare kicks in in a few years I'll go back to 'full' coverage by a supplementary Medi-Gap plan and pay the equivalent of what I do now for the catastrophe coverage.</p><p>Your mileage may vary, but thought I would bring it up as an optional path for you. Lots of companies offer this sort of coverage. Mine is with Group Health--Seattle, an HMO.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This may have been brought up .
There are over 400 comments now .
When I left the corporate world I found catastrophe insurance for which has a $ 5K deductible .
My reasoning was that I could get full coverage for about $ 500 per month , or $ 6K per year .
The catastrophe insurance was about $ 150 per month , or $ 1800 per year .
So I " save " $ 4200 per year if I do n't get sick .
If I DO get sick , I pay out $ 6800 per year , pretty close to what I would have been paying for full coverage .
I 'm gambling that I do n't get sick .
It 's been almost six years now , knock on wood , and I 've saved well over $ 20K so far .
When Medicare kicks in in a few years I 'll go back to 'full ' coverage by a supplementary Medi-Gap plan and pay the equivalent of what I do now for the catastrophe coverage.Your mileage may vary , but thought I would bring it up as an optional path for you .
Lots of companies offer this sort of coverage .
Mine is with Group Health--Seattle , an HMO .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This may have been brought up.
There are over 400 comments now.
When I left the corporate world I found catastrophe insurance for which has a $5K deductible.
My reasoning was that I could get full coverage for about $500 per month, or $6K per year.
The catastrophe insurance was about $150 per month, or $1800 per year.
So I "save" $4200 per year if I don't get sick.
If I DO get sick, I pay out $6800 per year, pretty close to what I would have been paying for full coverage.
I'm gambling that I don't get sick.
It's been almost six years now, knock on wood, and I've saved well over $20K so far.
When Medicare kicks in in a few years I'll go back to 'full' coverage by a supplementary Medi-Gap plan and pay the equivalent of what I do now for the catastrophe coverage.Your mileage may vary, but thought I would bring it up as an optional path for you.
Lots of companies offer this sort of coverage.
Mine is with Group Health--Seattle, an HMO.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231892</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266864120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You can say the samething about US healthcare. Do you seriously believe that a typical insurance premiums cover the entire cost of the US healthcare system? HA!!!

Only reason the insurance premium is as low as it is because the insurance companies dump chronically sick and old to the Medicare and Medicaid. If they had to pay for all of that, your premiums would be even higher than what it is right now!</htmltext>
<tokenext>You can say the samething about US healthcare .
Do you seriously believe that a typical insurance premiums cover the entire cost of the US healthcare system ?
HA ! ! ! Only reason the insurance premium is as low as it is because the insurance companies dump chronically sick and old to the Medicare and Medicaid .
If they had to pay for all of that , your premiums would be even higher than what it is right now !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You can say the samething about US healthcare.
Do you seriously believe that a typical insurance premiums cover the entire cost of the US healthcare system?
HA!!!

Only reason the insurance premium is as low as it is because the insurance companies dump chronically sick and old to the Medicare and Medicaid.
If they had to pay for all of that, your premiums would be even higher than what it is right now!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230874</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31239248</id>
	<title>Re:Facts.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266848460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>All we understand is money. Health, security, happiness... all afterthoughts.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>All we understand is money .
Health , security , happiness... all afterthoughts .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>All we understand is money.
Health, security, happiness... all afterthoughts.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231000</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232360</id>
	<title>You're about to find out why "health care reform"</title>
	<author>nedlohs</author>
	<datestamp>1266865500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>is such a big political issue.</p><p>Hope you don't have any minor (or major) things on your medical history.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>is such a big political issue.Hope you do n't have any minor ( or major ) things on your medical history .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>is such a big political issue.Hope you don't have any minor (or major) things on your medical history.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231544</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>jockeys</author>
	<datestamp>1266863220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>alright, let's play:
<br>
<br>
160B$/33M people = 4848$/person (per year)<br>
divide by 12 months and you are looking at around $404.04 per person per month
<br> <br>
well shit, that's a little bit MORE than I'm paying for healthcare plus health insurance here in the evil USA where healthcare costs so much...</htmltext>
<tokenext>alright , let 's play : 160B $ /33M people = 4848 $ /person ( per year ) divide by 12 months and you are looking at around $ 404.04 per person per month well shit , that 's a little bit MORE than I 'm paying for healthcare plus health insurance here in the evil USA where healthcare costs so much.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>alright, let's play:


160B$/33M people = 4848$/person (per year)
divide by 12 months and you are looking at around $404.04 per person per month
 
well shit, that's a little bit MORE than I'm paying for healthcare plus health insurance here in the evil USA where healthcare costs so much...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230874</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232284</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Homburg</author>
	<datestamp>1266865200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The depressing thing is, the US does choose to spend tax money on healthcare; the US actually has higher government spending on healthcare than Canada or the UK do. It's just that the US healthcare system is so massively broken that this vast expenditure only covers 30\% of the population, where in most other developed countries, an equal or smaller government expenditure covers the majority of the health costs of the entire population.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The depressing thing is , the US does choose to spend tax money on healthcare ; the US actually has higher government spending on healthcare than Canada or the UK do .
It 's just that the US healthcare system is so massively broken that this vast expenditure only covers 30 \ % of the population , where in most other developed countries , an equal or smaller government expenditure covers the majority of the health costs of the entire population .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The depressing thing is, the US does choose to spend tax money on healthcare; the US actually has higher government spending on healthcare than Canada or the UK do.
It's just that the US healthcare system is so massively broken that this vast expenditure only covers 30\% of the population, where in most other developed countries, an equal or smaller government expenditure covers the majority of the health costs of the entire population.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231438</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31239128</id>
	<title>Move to a civilized country.</title>
	<author>trouser</author>
	<datestamp>1266847680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There is no excuse for a wealthy, modern, industrialized nation not to offer a public health system.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is no excuse for a wealthy , modern , industrialized nation not to offer a public health system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is no excuse for a wealthy, modern, industrialized nation not to offer a public health system.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31235114</id>
	<title>This is good advice if you're healthy</title>
	<author>Overzeetop</author>
	<datestamp>1266831240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you have prescriptions or a chronic condition like diabetes, move to somewhere with socialized medicine (seriously). If yuo're pretty healthy, give the HSA a shot.</p><p>Here's the thing about healthcare - it's only stupid expensive if you're uninsured. That sounds odd, but it turns out that if you don't get negotiated rates with providers, they will charge you an outrageous amount. Often the "rack rate" for a procedure is between 3 and 10 times what large payers like Anthem have negotiated.  A $2000 exploratory ultrasound in the hospital might only be $250-$300 allowable charges once Anthem applies their discount. Wart removal? $200 rack, $40 negotiated.</p><p>The HSA has two parts - you pay for your "routine" healthcare, but at the Anthem (or whomever) discounted rates. Often you get a physical for no charge each year. If you mess yourself up, or you contract some serious problem, you pay out up to your deductible (usually $3000-4000 for an individual) and - this is the good part - the insurance company picks up 100\% of your bills after that. And for all this, your premiums will be about half what they would be under a co-pay plan, plus you get to put away money tax free.</p><p>I'll tell you, If you get hit by a bus, that 80/20 plan you have with your employer will eat you alive. It's very simple to rack up $100k in medical bills for a major life event.</p><p>Now, it's not perfect. As an individual, your insurer has the chance each year to decide you're too expensive and cancel your ass. (This is where group policies are better, but for healthy people will double your premium)  Also, there is no defined prescription coverage - you pay what the insurer would have paid.  For "regular" prescriptions, it's often LESS than the oh-so-advertised $4/prescription that many chains have now.  For name-brand drugs, though, you could be in for serious costs. So if you have maintenance meds, check to see what the insurer's negotiated rates are before you jump.</p><p>Personally, I like the HSA. I get to get whatever care I want, I pay discounted rates for what I consume, and if I have a stroke or a heart attack my maximum out of pocket costs are going to be capped pretty low. And those costs - it turns out - I get to legally hide from the IRS if I'm a saver.  Quite honestly - if you and your family are healthy - you can likely cover your whole family, plus the maximum IRS deduction  - for the same amount as a group plan would have cost.  After two or three years of being healthy, you should have enough in your HSA account to cover practically any major medical catastrophe with little to nothing out of pocket.</p><p>And, hey, isn't that really what insurance is about? Protecting you against the major loss?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you have prescriptions or a chronic condition like diabetes , move to somewhere with socialized medicine ( seriously ) .
If yuo 're pretty healthy , give the HSA a shot.Here 's the thing about healthcare - it 's only stupid expensive if you 're uninsured .
That sounds odd , but it turns out that if you do n't get negotiated rates with providers , they will charge you an outrageous amount .
Often the " rack rate " for a procedure is between 3 and 10 times what large payers like Anthem have negotiated .
A $ 2000 exploratory ultrasound in the hospital might only be $ 250- $ 300 allowable charges once Anthem applies their discount .
Wart removal ?
$ 200 rack , $ 40 negotiated.The HSA has two parts - you pay for your " routine " healthcare , but at the Anthem ( or whomever ) discounted rates .
Often you get a physical for no charge each year .
If you mess yourself up , or you contract some serious problem , you pay out up to your deductible ( usually $ 3000-4000 for an individual ) and - this is the good part - the insurance company picks up 100 \ % of your bills after that .
And for all this , your premiums will be about half what they would be under a co-pay plan , plus you get to put away money tax free.I 'll tell you , If you get hit by a bus , that 80/20 plan you have with your employer will eat you alive .
It 's very simple to rack up $ 100k in medical bills for a major life event.Now , it 's not perfect .
As an individual , your insurer has the chance each year to decide you 're too expensive and cancel your ass .
( This is where group policies are better , but for healthy people will double your premium ) Also , there is no defined prescription coverage - you pay what the insurer would have paid .
For " regular " prescriptions , it 's often LESS than the oh-so-advertised $ 4/prescription that many chains have now .
For name-brand drugs , though , you could be in for serious costs .
So if you have maintenance meds , check to see what the insurer 's negotiated rates are before you jump.Personally , I like the HSA .
I get to get whatever care I want , I pay discounted rates for what I consume , and if I have a stroke or a heart attack my maximum out of pocket costs are going to be capped pretty low .
And those costs - it turns out - I get to legally hide from the IRS if I 'm a saver .
Quite honestly - if you and your family are healthy - you can likely cover your whole family , plus the maximum IRS deduction - for the same amount as a group plan would have cost .
After two or three years of being healthy , you should have enough in your HSA account to cover practically any major medical catastrophe with little to nothing out of pocket.And , hey , is n't that really what insurance is about ?
Protecting you against the major loss ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you have prescriptions or a chronic condition like diabetes, move to somewhere with socialized medicine (seriously).
If yuo're pretty healthy, give the HSA a shot.Here's the thing about healthcare - it's only stupid expensive if you're uninsured.
That sounds odd, but it turns out that if you don't get negotiated rates with providers, they will charge you an outrageous amount.
Often the "rack rate" for a procedure is between 3 and 10 times what large payers like Anthem have negotiated.
A $2000 exploratory ultrasound in the hospital might only be $250-$300 allowable charges once Anthem applies their discount.
Wart removal?
$200 rack, $40 negotiated.The HSA has two parts - you pay for your "routine" healthcare, but at the Anthem (or whomever) discounted rates.
Often you get a physical for no charge each year.
If you mess yourself up, or you contract some serious problem, you pay out up to your deductible (usually $3000-4000 for an individual) and - this is the good part - the insurance company picks up 100\% of your bills after that.
And for all this, your premiums will be about half what they would be under a co-pay plan, plus you get to put away money tax free.I'll tell you, If you get hit by a bus, that 80/20 plan you have with your employer will eat you alive.
It's very simple to rack up $100k in medical bills for a major life event.Now, it's not perfect.
As an individual, your insurer has the chance each year to decide you're too expensive and cancel your ass.
(This is where group policies are better, but for healthy people will double your premium)  Also, there is no defined prescription coverage - you pay what the insurer would have paid.
For "regular" prescriptions, it's often LESS than the oh-so-advertised $4/prescription that many chains have now.
For name-brand drugs, though, you could be in for serious costs.
So if you have maintenance meds, check to see what the insurer's negotiated rates are before you jump.Personally, I like the HSA.
I get to get whatever care I want, I pay discounted rates for what I consume, and if I have a stroke or a heart attack my maximum out of pocket costs are going to be capped pretty low.
And those costs - it turns out - I get to legally hide from the IRS if I'm a saver.
Quite honestly - if you and your family are healthy - you can likely cover your whole family, plus the maximum IRS deduction  - for the same amount as a group plan would have cost.
After two or three years of being healthy, you should have enough in your HSA account to cover practically any major medical catastrophe with little to nothing out of pocket.And, hey, isn't that really what insurance is about?
Protecting you against the major loss?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230888</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31238570</id>
	<title>Misunderstanding of the definition of Capitalism</title>
	<author>AthleteMusicianNerd</author>
	<datestamp>1266844380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Several post have bashed the "American Capitalist" system.  I apologize for straying a bit from the original post, but I blame it on those who brought up Capitalism.

<br>

If we had a Capitalist Health Care system, we would NOT have HMO's, Medicare, or Medicaid.  So for those of you who are anti Capitalist because you got stuck with a huge health care bill or received poor quality health care from the American health care system, go back and reread the definition of Capitalism and see if you can find the appropriate entity to place the blame on.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Several post have bashed the " American Capitalist " system .
I apologize for straying a bit from the original post , but I blame it on those who brought up Capitalism .
If we had a Capitalist Health Care system , we would NOT have HMO 's , Medicare , or Medicaid .
So for those of you who are anti Capitalist because you got stuck with a huge health care bill or received poor quality health care from the American health care system , go back and reread the definition of Capitalism and see if you can find the appropriate entity to place the blame on .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Several post have bashed the "American Capitalist" system.
I apologize for straying a bit from the original post, but I blame it on those who brought up Capitalism.
If we had a Capitalist Health Care system, we would NOT have HMO's, Medicare, or Medicaid.
So for those of you who are anti Capitalist because you got stuck with a huge health care bill or received poor quality health care from the American health care system, go back and reread the definition of Capitalism and see if you can find the appropriate entity to place the blame on.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231632</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>prattle</author>
	<datestamp>1266863460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p><div class="quote"><p>and enjoy universal health care for about $100 per month for a family of 4, unless you can show economic hardship, and then it's free.</p></div><p>This drivel is modded "informative"?

Seriously? I don't know who's a more deluded, the OP, or the people who modded him.

Let's see - at $25/person/month , that's $25*12* 33'000'000 (population of Canada) = $9.9 billion US ~ $10 billion US</p></div><p>He's obviously not talking about the total costs to society, so put your straw man away (and take something for your blood pressure... if you can afford it).</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>and enjoy universal health care for about $ 100 per month for a family of 4 , unless you can show economic hardship , and then it 's free.This drivel is modded " informative " ?
Seriously ? I do n't know who 's a more deluded , the OP , or the people who modded him .
Let 's see - at $ 25/person/month , that 's $ 25 * 12 * 33'000'000 ( population of Canada ) = $ 9.9 billion US ~ $ 10 billion USHe 's obviously not talking about the total costs to society , so put your straw man away ( and take something for your blood pressure... if you can afford it ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>and enjoy universal health care for about $100 per month for a family of 4, unless you can show economic hardship, and then it's free.This drivel is modded "informative"?
Seriously? I don't know who's a more deluded, the OP, or the people who modded him.
Let's see - at $25/person/month , that's $25*12* 33'000'000 (population of Canada) = $9.9 billion US ~ $10 billion USHe's obviously not talking about the total costs to society, so put your straw man away (and take something for your blood pressure... if you can afford it).
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230874</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231902</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266864180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>GP was attacking the "it only costs us pennies!" statement that the GGP made.  The GGP made the point that "healthcare is cheaper up here", while the GP made the point of "no it ain't, in fact you pay for it in taxes, but can't tell"</p><p>For the record, I'm a greedy jerk against paying higher taxes to the government for the benefit of others (on principle).  I am all for optional donation to charity/church/community for the same goal.</p><p>In the same sense, I'm also against unemployment, as it is VERY prone to abuse.  My father-in-law currently collects it ("why work when doing nothing pays so good?"), and I would much rather see this able-bodied, 48 year old truck driver asking for a handout from me (where I can give a number that isn't 1/2 his pay), and collecting it from me from the government taxes I pay.  In the very literral sense, unemployment pays too good for him to go back to work (creating the problem it was intended to solve).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>GP was attacking the " it only costs us pennies !
" statement that the GGP made .
The GGP made the point that " healthcare is cheaper up here " , while the GP made the point of " no it ai n't , in fact you pay for it in taxes , but ca n't tell " For the record , I 'm a greedy jerk against paying higher taxes to the government for the benefit of others ( on principle ) .
I am all for optional donation to charity/church/community for the same goal.In the same sense , I 'm also against unemployment , as it is VERY prone to abuse .
My father-in-law currently collects it ( " why work when doing nothing pays so good ?
" ) , and I would much rather see this able-bodied , 48 year old truck driver asking for a handout from me ( where I can give a number that is n't 1/2 his pay ) , and collecting it from me from the government taxes I pay .
In the very literral sense , unemployment pays too good for him to go back to work ( creating the problem it was intended to solve ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>GP was attacking the "it only costs us pennies!
" statement that the GGP made.
The GGP made the point that "healthcare is cheaper up here", while the GP made the point of "no it ain't, in fact you pay for it in taxes, but can't tell"For the record, I'm a greedy jerk against paying higher taxes to the government for the benefit of others (on principle).
I am all for optional donation to charity/church/community for the same goal.In the same sense, I'm also against unemployment, as it is VERY prone to abuse.
My father-in-law currently collects it ("why work when doing nothing pays so good?
"), and I would much rather see this able-bodied, 48 year old truck driver asking for a handout from me (where I can give a number that isn't 1/2 his pay), and collecting it from me from the government taxes I pay.
In the very literral sense, unemployment pays too good for him to go back to work (creating the problem it was intended to solve).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231286</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231502</id>
	<title>Health Insurance ... from an insurance agent</title>
	<author>misterelie</author>
	<datestamp>1266863160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I feel qualified to answer this since I'm a health insurance agent.....

Each state has its own rules regarding health insurance.  Depending on your health and your family's overall health, you may be able to find health insurance in the United States for a fairly affordable rate.

I know you can do everything online now, but there is a reason insurance agents and brokers still have jobs.  I suggest seeking one out to help you find a good plan.  Don't just seek out someone who calls themselves an "insurance broker," however.  Deal with one that's a member of a professional and ethical organization.  Check for a health insurance agent from The National Association of Health Underwriters (nahu.org) or the National Association of Insurance &amp; Financial Advisors (naifa.org).  Each has a listing of professionals that can help you with this.  Three points of advice: 1.) don't buy from a family member or a close friend, get someone who will give you professionalism at all times.  2.) Don't buy from someone new in the business.  I've been doing this for seven years and NO ONE I started with is still in this business.  They were either sued out of the business for unethical business practices or left because they wanted to make a quick buck and found it really doesn't work that way.  3.) Make sure your broker or agent is part of a professional organization like NAIFA or NAHU.  It demonstrates a commitment to their career.  You don't ever want to do business with someone in any field that is not committed to their job.  Especially one as dangerous as the health insurance field.

Yes, health insurance is daunting and currently is getting a bad rap, but I assure you ethical professionals are good at finding plans to meet your needs.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I feel qualified to answer this since I 'm a health insurance agent.... . Each state has its own rules regarding health insurance .
Depending on your health and your family 's overall health , you may be able to find health insurance in the United States for a fairly affordable rate .
I know you can do everything online now , but there is a reason insurance agents and brokers still have jobs .
I suggest seeking one out to help you find a good plan .
Do n't just seek out someone who calls themselves an " insurance broker , " however .
Deal with one that 's a member of a professional and ethical organization .
Check for a health insurance agent from The National Association of Health Underwriters ( nahu.org ) or the National Association of Insurance &amp; Financial Advisors ( naifa.org ) .
Each has a listing of professionals that can help you with this .
Three points of advice : 1 .
) do n't buy from a family member or a close friend , get someone who will give you professionalism at all times .
2. ) Do n't buy from someone new in the business .
I 've been doing this for seven years and NO ONE I started with is still in this business .
They were either sued out of the business for unethical business practices or left because they wanted to make a quick buck and found it really does n't work that way .
3. ) Make sure your broker or agent is part of a professional organization like NAIFA or NAHU .
It demonstrates a commitment to their career .
You do n't ever want to do business with someone in any field that is not committed to their job .
Especially one as dangerous as the health insurance field .
Yes , health insurance is daunting and currently is getting a bad rap , but I assure you ethical professionals are good at finding plans to meet your needs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I feel qualified to answer this since I'm a health insurance agent.....

Each state has its own rules regarding health insurance.
Depending on your health and your family's overall health, you may be able to find health insurance in the United States for a fairly affordable rate.
I know you can do everything online now, but there is a reason insurance agents and brokers still have jobs.
I suggest seeking one out to help you find a good plan.
Don't just seek out someone who calls themselves an "insurance broker," however.
Deal with one that's a member of a professional and ethical organization.
Check for a health insurance agent from The National Association of Health Underwriters (nahu.org) or the National Association of Insurance &amp; Financial Advisors (naifa.org).
Each has a listing of professionals that can help you with this.
Three points of advice: 1.
) don't buy from a family member or a close friend, get someone who will give you professionalism at all times.
2.) Don't buy from someone new in the business.
I've been doing this for seven years and NO ONE I started with is still in this business.
They were either sued out of the business for unethical business practices or left because they wanted to make a quick buck and found it really doesn't work that way.
3.) Make sure your broker or agent is part of a professional organization like NAIFA or NAHU.
It demonstrates a commitment to their career.
You don't ever want to do business with someone in any field that is not committed to their job.
Especially one as dangerous as the health insurance field.
Yes, health insurance is daunting and currently is getting a bad rap, but I assure you ethical professionals are good at finding plans to meet your needs.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31235006</id>
	<title>Stay healthy my friends</title>
	<author>gsmraxe</author>
	<datestamp>1266830940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wow!  You're all such a bitter bunch.  The poster that claimed that we don't trust our Government was 100\% right on.</p><p>I went for about 10 years with no insurance.  Granted, I'm single w/no kids, but I did run into a few medical problems.  I just went to my local clinic and it didn't cost me anything.</p><p>When I found a job that offered health care, I signed up.  Last year  I discovered a lump in my neck which wound up being Medullary Thyroid Carcinoma, which I've had 2 surgeries for, and the 2nd surgery also took care of an Adenocarcinoma on my left salivary gland.  2 rare forms of cancer, an autoimmune disease, and the latest is uterine fibroids.  $33 every pay check and a deductible of $2500 a year and my insurance 100\% pays for anything after $2500.  I paid $1700 for the first hospital stay, but $0 for the 2nd surgery, including hospital.</p><p>I would never trade my PPO for Government run healthcare, because as we know, they can't even manage Medicare.  I could have died of my cancers if I had to depend on the Government to decide if I needed treatment or not.  We all know how quick it is to get through the DMV don't we?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Wow !
You 're all such a bitter bunch .
The poster that claimed that we do n't trust our Government was 100 \ % right on.I went for about 10 years with no insurance .
Granted , I 'm single w/no kids , but I did run into a few medical problems .
I just went to my local clinic and it did n't cost me anything.When I found a job that offered health care , I signed up .
Last year I discovered a lump in my neck which wound up being Medullary Thyroid Carcinoma , which I 've had 2 surgeries for , and the 2nd surgery also took care of an Adenocarcinoma on my left salivary gland .
2 rare forms of cancer , an autoimmune disease , and the latest is uterine fibroids .
$ 33 every pay check and a deductible of $ 2500 a year and my insurance 100 \ % pays for anything after $ 2500 .
I paid $ 1700 for the first hospital stay , but $ 0 for the 2nd surgery , including hospital.I would never trade my PPO for Government run healthcare , because as we know , they ca n't even manage Medicare .
I could have died of my cancers if I had to depend on the Government to decide if I needed treatment or not .
We all know how quick it is to get through the DMV do n't we ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wow!
You're all such a bitter bunch.
The poster that claimed that we don't trust our Government was 100\% right on.I went for about 10 years with no insurance.
Granted, I'm single w/no kids, but I did run into a few medical problems.
I just went to my local clinic and it didn't cost me anything.When I found a job that offered health care, I signed up.
Last year  I discovered a lump in my neck which wound up being Medullary Thyroid Carcinoma, which I've had 2 surgeries for, and the 2nd surgery also took care of an Adenocarcinoma on my left salivary gland.
2 rare forms of cancer, an autoimmune disease, and the latest is uterine fibroids.
$33 every pay check and a deductible of $2500 a year and my insurance 100\% pays for anything after $2500.
I paid $1700 for the first hospital stay, but $0 for the 2nd surgery, including hospital.I would never trade my PPO for Government run healthcare, because as we know, they can't even manage Medicare.
I could have died of my cancers if I had to depend on the Government to decide if I needed treatment or not.
We all know how quick it is to get through the DMV don't we?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31234030</id>
	<title>Re:Move where?</title>
	<author>Inda</author>
	<datestamp>1266871320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>hmmm... not sure they can stop us in Europe, and that's 50 countries. I even have a card in my wallet that entitles me free healthcare anywhere in Europe.</htmltext>
<tokenext>hmmm... not sure they can stop us in Europe , and that 's 50 countries .
I even have a card in my wallet that entitles me free healthcare anywhere in Europe .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>hmmm... not sure they can stop us in Europe, and that's 50 countries.
I even have a card in my wallet that entitles me free healthcare anywhere in Europe.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231122</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230960</id>
	<title>Mexico</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266861840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>People who are living nearby the border are going to Mexico if they have health issues.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>People who are living nearby the border are going to Mexico if they have health issues .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>People who are living nearby the border are going to Mexico if they have health issues.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231560</id>
	<title>You think like a ReThuglican Jew</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266863280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You think like a ReThuglican Jew</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You think like a ReThuglican Jew</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You think like a ReThuglican Jew</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230874</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231616</id>
	<title>Re:doesn't that make you boiling mad?</title>
	<author>Rich0</author>
	<datestamp>1266863400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree with your frustration, although socialized medicine isn't actually the only solution to this (although it potentially is a good one).</p><p>The real issue in this PARTICULAR case is universal coverage.  The fact that individuals in the US are free to buy insurance or not buy it means that you have situations where individuals have trouble getting plans.  Look at it from the insurer's perspective:</p><p>1.  The guy signing up for insurance claims they are healthy, but for all they know he was without insurance for 5 years and now they're signing up because they got some indication they have a serious problem.<br>2.  Individuals are always a hassle to deal with anyway.<br>3.  Individuals have no clout, so why not abuse them if nobody is threatening to punish you for doing so.</p><p>A law requiring all individuals to have insurance and requiring insurers to set a single rate regardless of risk factors and coverage for pre-existing conditions would completely solve this particular issue.</p><p>Now, there is the issue of people who can't afford insurance even at reasonable rates, and that is where socialism comes in.</p><p>I'm not trying to say that socialized medicine is a bad thing, and I actually tend to support it in certain ways, but it isn't the only solution to our problems, and it also doesn't solve all of our problems.  In the case of this particular article, universal coverage is really what is needed, and socialized medicine tends to get brought up because most socialized health systems happen to also provide universal coverage.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree with your frustration , although socialized medicine is n't actually the only solution to this ( although it potentially is a good one ) .The real issue in this PARTICULAR case is universal coverage .
The fact that individuals in the US are free to buy insurance or not buy it means that you have situations where individuals have trouble getting plans .
Look at it from the insurer 's perspective : 1 .
The guy signing up for insurance claims they are healthy , but for all they know he was without insurance for 5 years and now they 're signing up because they got some indication they have a serious problem.2 .
Individuals are always a hassle to deal with anyway.3 .
Individuals have no clout , so why not abuse them if nobody is threatening to punish you for doing so.A law requiring all individuals to have insurance and requiring insurers to set a single rate regardless of risk factors and coverage for pre-existing conditions would completely solve this particular issue.Now , there is the issue of people who ca n't afford insurance even at reasonable rates , and that is where socialism comes in.I 'm not trying to say that socialized medicine is a bad thing , and I actually tend to support it in certain ways , but it is n't the only solution to our problems , and it also does n't solve all of our problems .
In the case of this particular article , universal coverage is really what is needed , and socialized medicine tends to get brought up because most socialized health systems happen to also provide universal coverage .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree with your frustration, although socialized medicine isn't actually the only solution to this (although it potentially is a good one).The real issue in this PARTICULAR case is universal coverage.
The fact that individuals in the US are free to buy insurance or not buy it means that you have situations where individuals have trouble getting plans.
Look at it from the insurer's perspective:1.
The guy signing up for insurance claims they are healthy, but for all they know he was without insurance for 5 years and now they're signing up because they got some indication they have a serious problem.2.
Individuals are always a hassle to deal with anyway.3.
Individuals have no clout, so why not abuse them if nobody is threatening to punish you for doing so.A law requiring all individuals to have insurance and requiring insurers to set a single rate regardless of risk factors and coverage for pre-existing conditions would completely solve this particular issue.Now, there is the issue of people who can't afford insurance even at reasonable rates, and that is where socialism comes in.I'm not trying to say that socialized medicine is a bad thing, and I actually tend to support it in certain ways, but it isn't the only solution to our problems, and it also doesn't solve all of our problems.
In the case of this particular article, universal coverage is really what is needed, and socialized medicine tends to get brought up because most socialized health systems happen to also provide universal coverage.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230810</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233472</id>
	<title>hero of canada... and the health system</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266869400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>this is the hero... of canada... his foresight and ideas at that time..</p><p>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy\_Douglas</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>this is the hero... of canada... his foresight and ideas at that time..http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy \ _Douglas</tokentext>
<sentencetext>this is the hero... of canada... his foresight and ideas at that time..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy\_Douglas</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231024</id>
	<title>I thought the plan was irrelevant</title>
	<author>Colin Smith</author>
	<datestamp>1266862020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They only pay out in a fraction of cases, no matter the circumstances. Somewhere round 50\% or so. Then they hit the corp up for costs later as well.</p><p>
&nbsp;</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They only pay out in a fraction of cases , no matter the circumstances .
Somewhere round 50 \ % or so .
Then they hit the corp up for costs later as well .
 </tokentext>
<sentencetext>They only pay out in a fraction of cases, no matter the circumstances.
Somewhere round 50\% or so.
Then they hit the corp up for costs later as well.
 </sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230606</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231586</id>
	<title>Health care is expensive. Budget for it.</title>
	<author>characterZer0</author>
	<datestamp>1266863280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Find out how much it will cost to get a high deductible policy. Figure out how much you should put into an HSA. Budget that into your contracting rates, business proposals, or wherever your income is coming from.</p><p>Health care is expensive. Hospitals are expensive to operate. Training doctors is expensive. Developing and testing medications is expensive. Medical equipment is expensive. If you want it, somebody is going to have to pay for it, and nobody wants to pay for it on your behalf. Just like nobody wants to pay for your house and car for you.</p><p>You have three options:</p><ul><li>pay for it yourself</li><li>get it as a perk from your employer</li><li>move to a country that levies taxes to cover it</li></ul></htmltext>
<tokenext>Find out how much it will cost to get a high deductible policy .
Figure out how much you should put into an HSA .
Budget that into your contracting rates , business proposals , or wherever your income is coming from.Health care is expensive .
Hospitals are expensive to operate .
Training doctors is expensive .
Developing and testing medications is expensive .
Medical equipment is expensive .
If you want it , somebody is going to have to pay for it , and nobody wants to pay for it on your behalf .
Just like nobody wants to pay for your house and car for you.You have three options : pay for it yourselfget it as a perk from your employermove to a country that levies taxes to cover it</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Find out how much it will cost to get a high deductible policy.
Figure out how much you should put into an HSA.
Budget that into your contracting rates, business proposals, or wherever your income is coming from.Health care is expensive.
Hospitals are expensive to operate.
Training doctors is expensive.
Developing and testing medications is expensive.
Medical equipment is expensive.
If you want it, somebody is going to have to pay for it, and nobody wants to pay for it on your behalf.
Just like nobody wants to pay for your house and car for you.You have three options:pay for it yourselfget it as a perk from your employermove to a country that levies taxes to cover it</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232196</id>
	<title>wasn't that bad in maryland, but it was expensive</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266864960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>When I first started working I worked for a very small tech company that did not have a medical plan.  This was in 2003, and at that time I paid 600$/month for a private family health plan.  It was expensive, but it worked just fine.   I never had any trouble with coverage.   I even had a daughter with some (very minor) health issues when she was born, and had no trouble seeing a specialist.

The plan was very expensive, but coverage was not a problem.</htmltext>
<tokenext>When I first started working I worked for a very small tech company that did not have a medical plan .
This was in 2003 , and at that time I paid 600 $ /month for a private family health plan .
It was expensive , but it worked just fine .
I never had any trouble with coverage .
I even had a daughter with some ( very minor ) health issues when she was born , and had no trouble seeing a specialist .
The plan was very expensive , but coverage was not a problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I first started working I worked for a very small tech company that did not have a medical plan.
This was in 2003, and at that time I paid 600$/month for a private family health plan.
It was expensive, but it worked just fine.
I never had any trouble with coverage.
I even had a daughter with some (very minor) health issues when she was born, and had no trouble seeing a specialist.
The plan was very expensive, but coverage was not a problem.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31235734</id>
	<title>Re:vote for democrats</title>
	<author>Bananenrepublik</author>
	<datestamp>1266833040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You don't seriously doubt it's going to come, do you?  A law has passed the house, a law has passed congress.  They're not very far apart, everything that still needs to be done can be passed with simple majorities which the Democrats have with comfortable margins.</p><p>The prez is still trying to get the Republicans aboard, if that fails (I don't think anybody would bet differently) the Democrats will alone be responsible for the greatest step taken recently towards keeping the US a first-world country.  The republicans seem to want to claim that his negotiation offer is not serious.  Well, he publicized his planned law beforehand so that they would actually have something to talk about, and a basis for a discussion, but I'm sure they'll still claim, that the president didn't make a serious offer.  Then Sarah Palin will suggest invading Canada.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You do n't seriously doubt it 's going to come , do you ?
A law has passed the house , a law has passed congress .
They 're not very far apart , everything that still needs to be done can be passed with simple majorities which the Democrats have with comfortable margins.The prez is still trying to get the Republicans aboard , if that fails ( I do n't think anybody would bet differently ) the Democrats will alone be responsible for the greatest step taken recently towards keeping the US a first-world country .
The republicans seem to want to claim that his negotiation offer is not serious .
Well , he publicized his planned law beforehand so that they would actually have something to talk about , and a basis for a discussion , but I 'm sure they 'll still claim , that the president did n't make a serious offer .
Then Sarah Palin will suggest invading Canada .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You don't seriously doubt it's going to come, do you?
A law has passed the house, a law has passed congress.
They're not very far apart, everything that still needs to be done can be passed with simple majorities which the Democrats have with comfortable margins.The prez is still trying to get the Republicans aboard, if that fails (I don't think anybody would bet differently) the Democrats will alone be responsible for the greatest step taken recently towards keeping the US a first-world country.
The republicans seem to want to claim that his negotiation offer is not serious.
Well, he publicized his planned law beforehand so that they would actually have something to talk about, and a basis for a discussion, but I'm sure they'll still claim, that the president didn't make a serious offer.
Then Sarah Palin will suggest invading Canada.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230726</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230804</id>
	<title>Feh.  Health Insurance.</title>
	<author>Pojut</author>
	<datestamp>1266861420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Look, don't get me wrong...I'm all for companies and industries working to make a profit.  That is, after all, the entire point of capitalism.</p><p>That being said, FUCK insurance companies and the healthcare industry in general snubbing patient health to make a profit.  As I said, I'm all about making money and I'm all about industry making money, but profiting off the misfortune and ill-health of people is the worst kind of dickery.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Look , do n't get me wrong...I 'm all for companies and industries working to make a profit .
That is , after all , the entire point of capitalism.That being said , FUCK insurance companies and the healthcare industry in general snubbing patient health to make a profit .
As I said , I 'm all about making money and I 'm all about industry making money , but profiting off the misfortune and ill-health of people is the worst kind of dickery .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Look, don't get me wrong...I'm all for companies and industries working to make a profit.
That is, after all, the entire point of capitalism.That being said, FUCK insurance companies and the healthcare industry in general snubbing patient health to make a profit.
As I said, I'm all about making money and I'm all about industry making money, but profiting off the misfortune and ill-health of people is the worst kind of dickery.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31234108</id>
	<title>Listen to the crickets and take a year...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266871500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree that the current system is horrible.  Some people from the groups you disparage have put forth solutions.  One that I suggest is to actually allow competition.  Let health insurance companies compete across state lines.  I have no idea what effect this would have, but why not take a year and see?  As I see it the alternative is to support an all out nationalization of the system.  Government programs are not easily removed.  With that in mind isn't it in our best interest to try every free market solution before nationalization?</p><p>I do not expect more government involvement to solve this issue.  If you think about it, the current situation could not exist without the support of the government.  Large ins. co's have branches in every state.  Small ones don't.  One way to keep down competition (and prices high) is to lobby congress to make it illegal to offer coverage in states where you don't have a physical office.  The first step in the solution should be to remove the government's support of the large co's status quo.  Government and big ins co's are not rivals, they're partners.  Asking the government to step in and take things over would simply reinforce the big insurance co / government partnership.</p><p>My suggestion is easier to implement, does not involve government take over, actually removes some laws and might just bring prices down.  Now I'm wondering why you cannot see that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree that the current system is horrible .
Some people from the groups you disparage have put forth solutions .
One that I suggest is to actually allow competition .
Let health insurance companies compete across state lines .
I have no idea what effect this would have , but why not take a year and see ?
As I see it the alternative is to support an all out nationalization of the system .
Government programs are not easily removed .
With that in mind is n't it in our best interest to try every free market solution before nationalization ? I do not expect more government involvement to solve this issue .
If you think about it , the current situation could not exist without the support of the government .
Large ins .
co 's have branches in every state .
Small ones do n't .
One way to keep down competition ( and prices high ) is to lobby congress to make it illegal to offer coverage in states where you do n't have a physical office .
The first step in the solution should be to remove the government 's support of the large co 's status quo .
Government and big ins co 's are not rivals , they 're partners .
Asking the government to step in and take things over would simply reinforce the big insurance co / government partnership.My suggestion is easier to implement , does not involve government take over , actually removes some laws and might just bring prices down .
Now I 'm wondering why you can not see that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree that the current system is horrible.
Some people from the groups you disparage have put forth solutions.
One that I suggest is to actually allow competition.
Let health insurance companies compete across state lines.
I have no idea what effect this would have, but why not take a year and see?
As I see it the alternative is to support an all out nationalization of the system.
Government programs are not easily removed.
With that in mind isn't it in our best interest to try every free market solution before nationalization?I do not expect more government involvement to solve this issue.
If you think about it, the current situation could not exist without the support of the government.
Large ins.
co's have branches in every state.
Small ones don't.
One way to keep down competition (and prices high) is to lobby congress to make it illegal to offer coverage in states where you don't have a physical office.
The first step in the solution should be to remove the government's support of the large co's status quo.
Government and big ins co's are not rivals, they're partners.
Asking the government to step in and take things over would simply reinforce the big insurance co / government partnership.My suggestion is easier to implement, does not involve government take over, actually removes some laws and might just bring prices down.
Now I'm wondering why you cannot see that.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230810</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230946</id>
	<title>Re:Move where?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266861780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm from Finland. I'd say that anywhere in the Nordics would be a win but maybe Danmark would be the best from that point of view.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm from Finland .
I 'd say that anywhere in the Nordics would be a win but maybe Danmark would be the best from that point of view .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm from Finland.
I'd say that anywhere in the Nordics would be a win but maybe Danmark would be the best from that point of view.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230754</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231428</id>
	<title>The horror stories are all true</title>
	<author>whitroth</author>
	<datestamp>1266862920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As someone who's spent too much of the last decade out of work, everything you hear is true - like in Florida, over 13 mos between the end of '03 and the end of '04, when I ran out COBRA and got rolled into an "individual" plan, and the Republicans in charge of the state allowed, in two jumps, a -&gt;ONE HUNDRED PERCENT- increase in premiums.</p><p>Consider finding a group to join that offers it - anyone know if either the IEEE or ACM offer plans?</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; mark "until we techno-peasants finally wake up, pull out the torches and<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; pitchforks, and ride the Republicans out of town on a rail, tarred and<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; feathered, and tell the remaining folks in Congress to pass single payer"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As someone who 's spent too much of the last decade out of work , everything you hear is true - like in Florida , over 13 mos between the end of '03 and the end of '04 , when I ran out COBRA and got rolled into an " individual " plan , and the Republicans in charge of the state allowed , in two jumps , a - &gt; ONE HUNDRED PERCENT- increase in premiums.Consider finding a group to join that offers it - anyone know if either the IEEE or ACM offer plans ?
                      mark " until we techno-peasants finally wake up , pull out the torches and                                     pitchforks , and ride the Republicans out of town on a rail , tarred and                                     feathered , and tell the remaining folks in Congress to pass single payer "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As someone who's spent too much of the last decade out of work, everything you hear is true - like in Florida, over 13 mos between the end of '03 and the end of '04, when I ran out COBRA and got rolled into an "individual" plan, and the Republicans in charge of the state allowed, in two jumps, a -&gt;ONE HUNDRED PERCENT- increase in premiums.Consider finding a group to join that offers it - anyone know if either the IEEE or ACM offer plans?
                      mark "until we techno-peasants finally wake up, pull out the torches and
                                    pitchforks, and ride the Republicans out of town on a rail, tarred and
                                    feathered, and tell the remaining folks in Congress to pass single payer"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232624</id>
	<title>Re:Kaiser Permanente</title>
	<author>xirusmom</author>
	<datestamp>1266866340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Agree. We get Kaiser here in Colorado, through employer, so not sure of the prices for individuals, but I can vouch for the services. Would not change it for anything.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Agree .
We get Kaiser here in Colorado , through employer , so not sure of the prices for individuals , but I can vouch for the services .
Would not change it for anything .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Agree.
We get Kaiser here in Colorado, through employer, so not sure of the prices for individuals, but I can vouch for the services.
Would not change it for anything.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230760</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231222</id>
	<title>Health Saving Account</title>
	<author>andy1307</author>
	<datestamp>1266862500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Look at HSAs. IF you are young(40), that might be a good option. Basically, it allows you to put money in a tax free health saving account. You can use this account for medical expenses. You get a HSA plan from an insurance company. A HSA plan is a high deductible plan but you you use your pre-tax $$ from the HSA account for the deductibles. You can contribute up to 5800$/yr and if you don't use the money this year, it rolls over to the next yeat(unlike a flex spending account).

Best of luck.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Look at HSAs .
IF you are young ( 40 ) , that might be a good option .
Basically , it allows you to put money in a tax free health saving account .
You can use this account for medical expenses .
You get a HSA plan from an insurance company .
A HSA plan is a high deductible plan but you you use your pre-tax $ $ from the HSA account for the deductibles .
You can contribute up to 5800 $ /yr and if you do n't use the money this year , it rolls over to the next yeat ( unlike a flex spending account ) .
Best of luck .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Look at HSAs.
IF you are young(40), that might be a good option.
Basically, it allows you to put money in a tax free health saving account.
You can use this account for medical expenses.
You get a HSA plan from an insurance company.
A HSA plan is a high deductible plan but you you use your pre-tax $$ from the HSA account for the deductibles.
You can contribute up to 5800$/yr and if you don't use the money this year, it rolls over to the next yeat(unlike a flex spending account).
Best of luck.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230838</id>
	<title>Missing argument in health-care debate</title>
	<author>DoofusOfDeath</author>
	<datestamp>1266861540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Supposedly one of the strengths of the U.S. economy is its ability to rapidly adapt to changes.  This has been used to justify the lack of job protections for workers.  But as the poster has shown, having health insurance tied to your employer <i>obstructs</i> the kind of entrepreneurism that's part of our rapid adaptation.</p><p>I don't understand why this argument hasn't come up during the health-care debates.  It would have let Democrats position themselves as pro-economy.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Supposedly one of the strengths of the U.S. economy is its ability to rapidly adapt to changes .
This has been used to justify the lack of job protections for workers .
But as the poster has shown , having health insurance tied to your employer obstructs the kind of entrepreneurism that 's part of our rapid adaptation.I do n't understand why this argument has n't come up during the health-care debates .
It would have let Democrats position themselves as pro-economy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Supposedly one of the strengths of the U.S. economy is its ability to rapidly adapt to changes.
This has been used to justify the lack of job protections for workers.
But as the poster has shown, having health insurance tied to your employer obstructs the kind of entrepreneurism that's part of our rapid adaptation.I don't understand why this argument hasn't come up during the health-care debates.
It would have let Democrats position themselves as pro-economy.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233920</id>
	<title>MIB</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266871020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>One thing that I have not seen mentioned is MIB<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... no, not the Men In Black. Medical Information Bureau, although they don't use the full name any more. www.mib.com  This is a medical reporting agency much like the three credit reporting agencies which insurance companies, hospitals, and doctors have access.  If you have a "record" in MIB, you will not be able to get private insurance<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... period.  Want to know if you have a record, you are allowed to request a report much like a credit reporting agency. Not too many people know about this.  I only found out after I was refused several times for insurance and during my conversation with the agent, they screwed up and mentioned it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>One thing that I have not seen mentioned is MIB ... no , not the Men In Black .
Medical Information Bureau , although they do n't use the full name any more .
www.mib.com This is a medical reporting agency much like the three credit reporting agencies which insurance companies , hospitals , and doctors have access .
If you have a " record " in MIB , you will not be able to get private insurance ... period. Want to know if you have a record , you are allowed to request a report much like a credit reporting agency .
Not too many people know about this .
I only found out after I was refused several times for insurance and during my conversation with the agent , they screwed up and mentioned it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One thing that I have not seen mentioned is MIB ... no, not the Men In Black.
Medical Information Bureau, although they don't use the full name any more.
www.mib.com  This is a medical reporting agency much like the three credit reporting agencies which insurance companies, hospitals, and doctors have access.
If you have a "record" in MIB, you will not be able to get private insurance ... period.  Want to know if you have a record, you are allowed to request a report much like a credit reporting agency.
Not too many people know about this.
I only found out after I was refused several times for insurance and during my conversation with the agent, they screwed up and mentioned it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231884</id>
	<title>HDP/HSA</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266864120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you and your family are health I would look into a high deductable plan and open an HSA, the HDP's are pretty reasonable and you can take the money you would put into an HMO/PPO into a savings account tax free to cover the deductable plan.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you and your family are health I would look into a high deductable plan and open an HSA , the HDP 's are pretty reasonable and you can take the money you would put into an HMO/PPO into a savings account tax free to cover the deductable plan .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you and your family are health I would look into a high deductable plan and open an HSA, the HDP's are pretty reasonable and you can take the money you would put into an HMO/PPO into a savings account tax free to cover the deductable plan.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232244</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>darkmeridian</author>
	<datestamp>1266865140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The people who get waivers probably don't pay a lot in taxes, either, so yeah, for *them* it's free.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The people who get waivers probably do n't pay a lot in taxes , either , so yeah , for * them * it 's free .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The people who get waivers probably don't pay a lot in taxes, either, so yeah, for *them* it's free.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230874</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232114</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>fdsafdsafdasfdsafdsi</author>
	<datestamp>1266864780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm in favor of universal coverage and health care reform, but it doesn't help to make an argument based on a logical fallacy. The false dichotomy you present just weakens our overall position. Clearly there are other possibilities:
1. Ignorant of the facts
2. Don't care about the facts
3. Work for an insurance company
4. Just generally ignorant</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm in favor of universal coverage and health care reform , but it does n't help to make an argument based on a logical fallacy .
The false dichotomy you present just weakens our overall position .
Clearly there are other possibilities : 1 .
Ignorant of the facts 2 .
Do n't care about the facts 3 .
Work for an insurance company 4 .
Just generally ignorant</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm in favor of universal coverage and health care reform, but it doesn't help to make an argument based on a logical fallacy.
The false dichotomy you present just weakens our overall position.
Clearly there are other possibilities:
1.
Ignorant of the facts
2.
Don't care about the facts
3.
Work for an insurance company
4.
Just generally ignorant</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231286</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31236326</id>
	<title>State programs</title>
	<author>cazbar</author>
	<datestamp>1266834960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Often there are insurance programs run by a state government or state medical association that is available for a reasonable cost. WPS in Wisconsin is an example. You just have to do your homework to see if such a thing exists where you live.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Often there are insurance programs run by a state government or state medical association that is available for a reasonable cost .
WPS in Wisconsin is an example .
You just have to do your homework to see if such a thing exists where you live .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Often there are insurance programs run by a state government or state medical association that is available for a reasonable cost.
WPS in Wisconsin is an example.
You just have to do your homework to see if such a thing exists where you live.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31237940</id>
	<title>Re:Move where?</title>
	<author>damn\_registrars</author>
	<datestamp>1266840720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Seriously - If I was willing to move out of the U.S. and good health care was on my list of needs, where should I go?</p></div><p>
I would probably consider a few other important bits when thinking of countries to immigrate to:</p><ul> <li>What languages do you speak?  Sure, if you only speak English you can probably "get by" in most other countries since they usually teach English as a second language to almost everyone, but do you want to be disadvantaged right from the start?</li><li>How far away from the US are you willing to move - or how many people in the US would you like to be able to visit or talk to regularly?</li><li>How attached are you culturally to the US?  Sure you can get a McDonald's hamburger anywhere in the world, but are there American conveniences you might miss?</li><li>What kind of climate would you consider to be "liveable"?  Or in another way to phrase it, would you rather spend more on heat or air conditioning?</li></ul></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Seriously - If I was willing to move out of the U.S. and good health care was on my list of needs , where should I go ?
I would probably consider a few other important bits when thinking of countries to immigrate to : What languages do you speak ?
Sure , if you only speak English you can probably " get by " in most other countries since they usually teach English as a second language to almost everyone , but do you want to be disadvantaged right from the start ? How far away from the US are you willing to move - or how many people in the US would you like to be able to visit or talk to regularly ? How attached are you culturally to the US ?
Sure you can get a McDonald 's hamburger anywhere in the world , but are there American conveniences you might miss ? What kind of climate would you consider to be " liveable " ?
Or in another way to phrase it , would you rather spend more on heat or air conditioning ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seriously - If I was willing to move out of the U.S. and good health care was on my list of needs, where should I go?
I would probably consider a few other important bits when thinking of countries to immigrate to: What languages do you speak?
Sure, if you only speak English you can probably "get by" in most other countries since they usually teach English as a second language to almost everyone, but do you want to be disadvantaged right from the start?How far away from the US are you willing to move - or how many people in the US would you like to be able to visit or talk to regularly?How attached are you culturally to the US?
Sure you can get a McDonald's hamburger anywhere in the world, but are there American conveniences you might miss?What kind of climate would you consider to be "liveable"?
Or in another way to phrase it, would you rather spend more on heat or air conditioning?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230754</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230894</id>
	<title>High Deductible Insurance</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266861660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Get a High Deductible Insurance plan and an Health Savings Account.</p><p>Getting into nutritional medicine would also be a very good idea (most diseases we get here in the US are due to poor nutrition and for the most part all our health care industry does is treat the symptoms).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Get a High Deductible Insurance plan and an Health Savings Account.Getting into nutritional medicine would also be a very good idea ( most diseases we get here in the US are due to poor nutrition and for the most part all our health care industry does is treat the symptoms ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Get a High Deductible Insurance plan and an Health Savings Account.Getting into nutritional medicine would also be a very good idea (most diseases we get here in the US are due to poor nutrition and for the most part all our health care industry does is treat the symptoms).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230600</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232510</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>quax</author>
	<datestamp>1266865980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I worked in the US and currently in Canada (Toronto) same company same job.  I get a slightly better pay up here (somewhat dependent on currency fluctuation and the fact that the bonuses up here have been good even in these rough economic times).</p><p>I can not expense my mortgage interest so that sucks - on the other hand that is somewhat offset by the fact that Canada does not tax the gain on my house once I sell.  So far the real estate market is holding up so if I were to sell right now I'd make a good tax free profit on my home.</p><p>Not being able to expense a whole lot is annoying but on the other hand it makes my income tax declaration very easy.  In the US I hired a tax accountant. Up here it is such a straightforward process I file myself.</p><p>Bottom line:  In terms of disposable income moving here has made no difference.</p><p>BTW I also hate when people refer to it as "free" healthcare.  After all my taxes pay for it.  The Ontario Health insurance has a big problem in that many more insurance cards are in circulation than there are Canadians in Ontario.  The suspicion is that a lot of Americans living along the border managed to get cards by misrepresenting themselves as Canadians.  I detest having to pay for these people who have never paid nor ever will pay a single cent into the system.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I worked in the US and currently in Canada ( Toronto ) same company same job .
I get a slightly better pay up here ( somewhat dependent on currency fluctuation and the fact that the bonuses up here have been good even in these rough economic times ) .I can not expense my mortgage interest so that sucks - on the other hand that is somewhat offset by the fact that Canada does not tax the gain on my house once I sell .
So far the real estate market is holding up so if I were to sell right now I 'd make a good tax free profit on my home.Not being able to expense a whole lot is annoying but on the other hand it makes my income tax declaration very easy .
In the US I hired a tax accountant .
Up here it is such a straightforward process I file myself.Bottom line : In terms of disposable income moving here has made no difference.BTW I also hate when people refer to it as " free " healthcare .
After all my taxes pay for it .
The Ontario Health insurance has a big problem in that many more insurance cards are in circulation than there are Canadians in Ontario .
The suspicion is that a lot of Americans living along the border managed to get cards by misrepresenting themselves as Canadians .
I detest having to pay for these people who have never paid nor ever will pay a single cent into the system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I worked in the US and currently in Canada (Toronto) same company same job.
I get a slightly better pay up here (somewhat dependent on currency fluctuation and the fact that the bonuses up here have been good even in these rough economic times).I can not expense my mortgage interest so that sucks - on the other hand that is somewhat offset by the fact that Canada does not tax the gain on my house once I sell.
So far the real estate market is holding up so if I were to sell right now I'd make a good tax free profit on my home.Not being able to expense a whole lot is annoying but on the other hand it makes my income tax declaration very easy.
In the US I hired a tax accountant.
Up here it is such a straightforward process I file myself.Bottom line:  In terms of disposable income moving here has made no difference.BTW I also hate when people refer to it as "free" healthcare.
After all my taxes pay for it.
The Ontario Health insurance has a big problem in that many more insurance cards are in circulation than there are Canadians in Ontario.
The suspicion is that a lot of Americans living along the border managed to get cards by misrepresenting themselves as Canadians.
I detest having to pay for these people who have never paid nor ever will pay a single cent into the system.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230874</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233954</id>
	<title>Move out of the Country</title>
	<author>hackus</author>
	<datestamp>1266871080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Seriously.</p><p>The whole healthcare thing is a scam, which sorta works like this:</p><p>1) Insurance adjuster says they are changing plans, so your company has to enroll everyone again.</p><p>2) Insurance company threatens said company who bought plan for employees with exhorbitant rate hikes if they do not take the plan.</p><p>3) You can't make any claims for the first 6 months on the new enrollment.</p><p>3) Rinse and repeat every year or two.  The reason?   Insurance companies want that 6 months of free payments where they basically don't have to do jack.</p><p>Health Insurance, next to Wall Street is the biggest running scam right now in the US.  Even if you do have corporate insurance, it is typically so bad, if you lost it you wouldn't be that much worse off anyway.</p><p>Half the time the plans don't pay for services they say they do, and if you do manage to get a claim from them, they will find a way to not renew your insurance.</p><p>For profit health insurance is just that.  For profit.  That means they make the most money by not insuring you.</p><p>Sounds like a awesome system doesn't it?</p><p>Unless of course your sick.</p><p>I really do not know what all the fuss is about losing corporate health insurance.  It sucks anyway, and if you make any claims they will drop you or force your rates so high you can't pay.</p><p>Just go to the emergency room and if your illegal immigrant you don't have to pay anything anyway, if not just file for bankruptcy and go on disability like everyone else.</p><p>Better yet, since your not employed or not working their I would SERIOUSLY consider moving out of the country.</p><p>The USA is not a republic any more and all of our representatives wipe their arse with copies of the constitution.  Every kid born today is a slave to the wealthy elite in the USA.</p><p>They only people that have stood up to these bankers have been Iceland'ers.  I would consider moving their.</p><p>Who knows, maybe the banner of freedom will rise again in that cold far off little island.</p><p>-Hack.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Seriously.The whole healthcare thing is a scam , which sorta works like this : 1 ) Insurance adjuster says they are changing plans , so your company has to enroll everyone again.2 ) Insurance company threatens said company who bought plan for employees with exhorbitant rate hikes if they do not take the plan.3 ) You ca n't make any claims for the first 6 months on the new enrollment.3 ) Rinse and repeat every year or two .
The reason ?
Insurance companies want that 6 months of free payments where they basically do n't have to do jack.Health Insurance , next to Wall Street is the biggest running scam right now in the US .
Even if you do have corporate insurance , it is typically so bad , if you lost it you would n't be that much worse off anyway.Half the time the plans do n't pay for services they say they do , and if you do manage to get a claim from them , they will find a way to not renew your insurance.For profit health insurance is just that .
For profit .
That means they make the most money by not insuring you.Sounds like a awesome system does n't it ? Unless of course your sick.I really do not know what all the fuss is about losing corporate health insurance .
It sucks anyway , and if you make any claims they will drop you or force your rates so high you ca n't pay.Just go to the emergency room and if your illegal immigrant you do n't have to pay anything anyway , if not just file for bankruptcy and go on disability like everyone else.Better yet , since your not employed or not working their I would SERIOUSLY consider moving out of the country.The USA is not a republic any more and all of our representatives wipe their arse with copies of the constitution .
Every kid born today is a slave to the wealthy elite in the USA.They only people that have stood up to these bankers have been Iceland'ers .
I would consider moving their.Who knows , maybe the banner of freedom will rise again in that cold far off little island.-Hack .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seriously.The whole healthcare thing is a scam, which sorta works like this:1) Insurance adjuster says they are changing plans, so your company has to enroll everyone again.2) Insurance company threatens said company who bought plan for employees with exhorbitant rate hikes if they do not take the plan.3) You can't make any claims for the first 6 months on the new enrollment.3) Rinse and repeat every year or two.
The reason?
Insurance companies want that 6 months of free payments where they basically don't have to do jack.Health Insurance, next to Wall Street is the biggest running scam right now in the US.
Even if you do have corporate insurance, it is typically so bad, if you lost it you wouldn't be that much worse off anyway.Half the time the plans don't pay for services they say they do, and if you do manage to get a claim from them, they will find a way to not renew your insurance.For profit health insurance is just that.
For profit.
That means they make the most money by not insuring you.Sounds like a awesome system doesn't it?Unless of course your sick.I really do not know what all the fuss is about losing corporate health insurance.
It sucks anyway, and if you make any claims they will drop you or force your rates so high you can't pay.Just go to the emergency room and if your illegal immigrant you don't have to pay anything anyway, if not just file for bankruptcy and go on disability like everyone else.Better yet, since your not employed or not working their I would SERIOUSLY consider moving out of the country.The USA is not a republic any more and all of our representatives wipe their arse with copies of the constitution.
Every kid born today is a slave to the wealthy elite in the USA.They only people that have stood up to these bankers have been Iceland'ers.
I would consider moving their.Who knows, maybe the banner of freedom will rise again in that cold far off little island.-Hack.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232278</id>
	<title>Join your local chamber of commerce</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266865200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I joined my local chamber of commerce (Monroeville, PA) and was able to get good group coverage for my family while I was a self-employed sole proprietor.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I joined my local chamber of commerce ( Monroeville , PA ) and was able to get good group coverage for my family while I was a self-employed sole proprietor .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I joined my local chamber of commerce (Monroeville, PA) and was able to get good group coverage for my family while I was a self-employed sole proprietor.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232396</id>
	<title>Re:doesn't that make you boiling mad?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266865680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>how the hell did we arrive at this retarded status quo</p></div><p>Government regulation.  Health care became bundled with employment as a response to FDR's wage controls.  Later tax benefits for that made it more common. The Federal Government created HMOs, which then expanded the role of health insurance from unexpected events (ie, cancer, breaking your leg, etc) to covering your kid getting a cold.  Harry Browne <a href="http://www.harrybrowne.org/articles/HealthCare.htm" title="harrybrowne.org" rel="nofollow">explains this</a> [harrybrowne.org] better than I have.</p><p>Currently we have a third party (insurance or medicare/medicaid) paying the bills rather than the patient.  When a third party pays, costs generally go up since people don't bother to shop around for better deals (or are forced to not to shop around by the insurance company).  This raises prices.  Real competition will lower prices.</p><p>If you look at things people pay for out of pocket, such as Lasik, prices have dropped both in Federal Reserve Notes and in gold/silver while prices in every other form of health care has risen sharply.  Same goes with veterinary care.  Prices, adjusted for currency devaluation, have dropped over time.  John Stossel <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WnS96NVlMI" title="youtube.com" rel="nofollow">explains this well.</a> [youtube.com]</p><p>We need competition.  Real competition.  We need an end to state mandates.  We need competition over state lines (the Interstate Commerce Clause of the Constitution is meant to stop states from preventing commerce across state lines).  We need an end to government price fixing.  The role of insurance needs to be reduced back towards covering unexpected conditions.  We need better fraud laws to protect people from getting dropped from their plans when making a claim.  Etc.</p><p>Also, we need a focus on nutritional medicine as the majority of our diseases are caused/induced by poor nutrition. Proper nutrition can <b>cure</b> disease rather than just covering up the symptoms with drugs and cause a lower need for surgery.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>WE CURRENTLY HAVE. do you not see that?</p><p>when you oppose socialized medicine in the usa, because of all the evils of that you see, you merely support a MUCH WORSE STATUS QUO</p><p>are you resisting because you have a better solution? (crickets)</p></div><p>The current plans in Congress are, as Representative (and Medical Doctor) Ron Paul <a href="http://www.house.gov/htbin/blog\_inc?BLOG,tx14\_paul,blog,999,All,Item\%20not\%20found,ID=090914\_3520,TEMPLATE=postingdetail.shtml" title="house.gov" rel="nofollow">puts it</a> [house.gov], "Corporate Welfare".  Howard Dean even agrees with that and <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3zyyLiUsF8" title="youtube.com" rel="nofollow">referred to</a> [youtube.com] the plan as "this is is a giant bail-out. This is a bail-out that makes AIG look cheap. Sixty billion dollars a year go to the insurance companies under this bill."</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>how the hell did we arrive at this retarded status quoGovernment regulation .
Health care became bundled with employment as a response to FDR 's wage controls .
Later tax benefits for that made it more common .
The Federal Government created HMOs , which then expanded the role of health insurance from unexpected events ( ie , cancer , breaking your leg , etc ) to covering your kid getting a cold .
Harry Browne explains this [ harrybrowne.org ] better than I have.Currently we have a third party ( insurance or medicare/medicaid ) paying the bills rather than the patient .
When a third party pays , costs generally go up since people do n't bother to shop around for better deals ( or are forced to not to shop around by the insurance company ) .
This raises prices .
Real competition will lower prices.If you look at things people pay for out of pocket , such as Lasik , prices have dropped both in Federal Reserve Notes and in gold/silver while prices in every other form of health care has risen sharply .
Same goes with veterinary care .
Prices , adjusted for currency devaluation , have dropped over time .
John Stossel explains this well .
[ youtube.com ] We need competition .
Real competition .
We need an end to state mandates .
We need competition over state lines ( the Interstate Commerce Clause of the Constitution is meant to stop states from preventing commerce across state lines ) .
We need an end to government price fixing .
The role of insurance needs to be reduced back towards covering unexpected conditions .
We need better fraud laws to protect people from getting dropped from their plans when making a claim .
Etc.Also , we need a focus on nutritional medicine as the majority of our diseases are caused/induced by poor nutrition .
Proper nutrition can cure disease rather than just covering up the symptoms with drugs and cause a lower need for surgery.WE CURRENTLY HAVE .
do you not see that ? when you oppose socialized medicine in the usa , because of all the evils of that you see , you merely support a MUCH WORSE STATUS QUOare you resisting because you have a better solution ?
( crickets ) The current plans in Congress are , as Representative ( and Medical Doctor ) Ron Paul puts it [ house.gov ] , " Corporate Welfare " .
Howard Dean even agrees with that and referred to [ youtube.com ] the plan as " this is is a giant bail-out .
This is a bail-out that makes AIG look cheap .
Sixty billion dollars a year go to the insurance companies under this bill .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>how the hell did we arrive at this retarded status quoGovernment regulation.
Health care became bundled with employment as a response to FDR's wage controls.
Later tax benefits for that made it more common.
The Federal Government created HMOs, which then expanded the role of health insurance from unexpected events (ie, cancer, breaking your leg, etc) to covering your kid getting a cold.
Harry Browne explains this [harrybrowne.org] better than I have.Currently we have a third party (insurance or medicare/medicaid) paying the bills rather than the patient.
When a third party pays, costs generally go up since people don't bother to shop around for better deals (or are forced to not to shop around by the insurance company).
This raises prices.
Real competition will lower prices.If you look at things people pay for out of pocket, such as Lasik, prices have dropped both in Federal Reserve Notes and in gold/silver while prices in every other form of health care has risen sharply.
Same goes with veterinary care.
Prices, adjusted for currency devaluation, have dropped over time.
John Stossel explains this well.
[youtube.com]We need competition.
Real competition.
We need an end to state mandates.
We need competition over state lines (the Interstate Commerce Clause of the Constitution is meant to stop states from preventing commerce across state lines).
We need an end to government price fixing.
The role of insurance needs to be reduced back towards covering unexpected conditions.
We need better fraud laws to protect people from getting dropped from their plans when making a claim.
Etc.Also, we need a focus on nutritional medicine as the majority of our diseases are caused/induced by poor nutrition.
Proper nutrition can cure disease rather than just covering up the symptoms with drugs and cause a lower need for surgery.WE CURRENTLY HAVE.
do you not see that?when you oppose socialized medicine in the usa, because of all the evils of that you see, you merely support a MUCH WORSE STATUS QUOare you resisting because you have a better solution?
(crickets)The current plans in Congress are, as Representative (and Medical Doctor) Ron Paul puts it [house.gov], "Corporate Welfare".
Howard Dean even agrees with that and referred to [youtube.com] the plan as "this is is a giant bail-out.
This is a bail-out that makes AIG look cheap.
Sixty billion dollars a year go to the insurance companies under this bill.
"
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230810</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231732</id>
	<title>The UK/Europe</title>
	<author>Monty\_Lovering</author>
	<datestamp>1266863700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It is really funny.</p><p>I do not get how people think a system which gives a profit to health insurance companies AND to health providers can match the cost of providing health care of a system where health insurance and health care are run by the government. DoO they not know that procedure for procedure health care is the most expensive. My holdiay insurance has to cover me for TWICE the amount for healthcare if I am in the US than in any other country in the world.</p><p>Yeah, you guys are so free... to pay massively dispoportionate profits. Isn't that racketeering? I imagine government would do something about it, but then they'd take a big hit in contributions from the beneficiaries of that profit...</p><p>Cutting out corporate profit means Universal Health care is quite easily acheivable. Only those most determined at maintaining their 'social healthcare is evil' viewpoint can maintain the level of cogntive dissonance required to ignore the fact that most of Europe runs such systems. And people are not dying in droves on waiting lists, and provisison of full health is far wider.</p><p>Not all of it is fully public sector (like the UK). I live in Holland. I pay 130 Euros a month for a policy that provides free Doctors appointments and Dental check-ups, 50 - 100\% of 'normal' expenses, and 100\% of any major medical incident or illness. I can choose one of a dozen or so Health companies to pay this money to. THere's an equal amount of money paid by my employer to the government.</p><p>It works, really well.</p><p>AND what the blinded ignore is that in the UK (and most countries with 'free at point of provison' health care), you can also pay for private Health Insurance if you want special service.</p><p>But when is this neccesary? I know of no one in my family or English friends who has unreasonable delays for procedures. Yes, if it is not life threatening or majorly debilitating you may have to wait. But you beak a leg it all gets sorted out straight away. You have a heart attack, they sort you out straight away. Life-saving cancer treatment? Pretty damn quick. Need a replacement hip?  You might have to wait a while, but not long. So what, you will get it. For free. Outside of a few new drugs that are still extremely expensive and do not offer enough 'value-for-money' (in terms of life extension/quality) almost everything is available.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is really funny.I do not get how people think a system which gives a profit to health insurance companies AND to health providers can match the cost of providing health care of a system where health insurance and health care are run by the government .
DoO they not know that procedure for procedure health care is the most expensive .
My holdiay insurance has to cover me for TWICE the amount for healthcare if I am in the US than in any other country in the world.Yeah , you guys are so free... to pay massively dispoportionate profits .
Is n't that racketeering ?
I imagine government would do something about it , but then they 'd take a big hit in contributions from the beneficiaries of that profit...Cutting out corporate profit means Universal Health care is quite easily acheivable .
Only those most determined at maintaining their 'social healthcare is evil ' viewpoint can maintain the level of cogntive dissonance required to ignore the fact that most of Europe runs such systems .
And people are not dying in droves on waiting lists , and provisison of full health is far wider.Not all of it is fully public sector ( like the UK ) .
I live in Holland .
I pay 130 Euros a month for a policy that provides free Doctors appointments and Dental check-ups , 50 - 100 \ % of 'normal ' expenses , and 100 \ % of any major medical incident or illness .
I can choose one of a dozen or so Health companies to pay this money to .
THere 's an equal amount of money paid by my employer to the government.It works , really well.AND what the blinded ignore is that in the UK ( and most countries with 'free at point of provison ' health care ) , you can also pay for private Health Insurance if you want special service.But when is this neccesary ?
I know of no one in my family or English friends who has unreasonable delays for procedures .
Yes , if it is not life threatening or majorly debilitating you may have to wait .
But you beak a leg it all gets sorted out straight away .
You have a heart attack , they sort you out straight away .
Life-saving cancer treatment ?
Pretty damn quick .
Need a replacement hip ?
You might have to wait a while , but not long .
So what , you will get it .
For free .
Outside of a few new drugs that are still extremely expensive and do not offer enough 'value-for-money ' ( in terms of life extension/quality ) almost everything is available .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is really funny.I do not get how people think a system which gives a profit to health insurance companies AND to health providers can match the cost of providing health care of a system where health insurance and health care are run by the government.
DoO they not know that procedure for procedure health care is the most expensive.
My holdiay insurance has to cover me for TWICE the amount for healthcare if I am in the US than in any other country in the world.Yeah, you guys are so free... to pay massively dispoportionate profits.
Isn't that racketeering?
I imagine government would do something about it, but then they'd take a big hit in contributions from the beneficiaries of that profit...Cutting out corporate profit means Universal Health care is quite easily acheivable.
Only those most determined at maintaining their 'social healthcare is evil' viewpoint can maintain the level of cogntive dissonance required to ignore the fact that most of Europe runs such systems.
And people are not dying in droves on waiting lists, and provisison of full health is far wider.Not all of it is fully public sector (like the UK).
I live in Holland.
I pay 130 Euros a month for a policy that provides free Doctors appointments and Dental check-ups, 50 - 100\% of 'normal' expenses, and 100\% of any major medical incident or illness.
I can choose one of a dozen or so Health companies to pay this money to.
THere's an equal amount of money paid by my employer to the government.It works, really well.AND what the blinded ignore is that in the UK (and most countries with 'free at point of provison' health care), you can also pay for private Health Insurance if you want special service.But when is this neccesary?
I know of no one in my family or English friends who has unreasonable delays for procedures.
Yes, if it is not life threatening or majorly debilitating you may have to wait.
But you beak a leg it all gets sorted out straight away.
You have a heart attack, they sort you out straight away.
Life-saving cancer treatment?
Pretty damn quick.
Need a replacement hip?
You might have to wait a while, but not long.
So what, you will get it.
For free.
Outside of a few new drugs that are still extremely expensive and do not offer enough 'value-for-money' (in terms of life extension/quality) almost everything is available.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233244</id>
	<title>Several options</title>
	<author>Registered Coward v2</author>
	<datestamp>1266868740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Cobra was already mentioned - good but pricey option; at least you can gap you coverage until you find new coverage.  I'd also look to see if your university offers some sort of "GradMed" plan for alumni / grads.  Also consider a high deductible to lower premium costs and create a savings account to cover the deductible.<p>
Something else that may be a viable alternative: do you have a spouse who can work for insurance benefits?  I know several self employed people who's spouses work primarily for the benefits; not just for the short term but ultimately so they have insurance when they retire.  </p><p>
Finally, talk to your tax adviser and check with several insurance agents to see what is available at what cost.  There are many considerations, including "am I and is my family insurable?"  The potential financial impact of that could be catastrophic.  Get real, not<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/., advice.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Cobra was already mentioned - good but pricey option ; at least you can gap you coverage until you find new coverage .
I 'd also look to see if your university offers some sort of " GradMed " plan for alumni / grads .
Also consider a high deductible to lower premium costs and create a savings account to cover the deductible .
Something else that may be a viable alternative : do you have a spouse who can work for insurance benefits ?
I know several self employed people who 's spouses work primarily for the benefits ; not just for the short term but ultimately so they have insurance when they retire .
Finally , talk to your tax adviser and check with several insurance agents to see what is available at what cost .
There are many considerations , including " am I and is my family insurable ?
" The potential financial impact of that could be catastrophic .
Get real , not /. , advice .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Cobra was already mentioned - good but pricey option; at least you can gap you coverage until you find new coverage.
I'd also look to see if your university offers some sort of "GradMed" plan for alumni / grads.
Also consider a high deductible to lower premium costs and create a savings account to cover the deductible.
Something else that may be a viable alternative: do you have a spouse who can work for insurance benefits?
I know several self employed people who's spouses work primarily for the benefits; not just for the short term but ultimately so they have insurance when they retire.
Finally, talk to your tax adviser and check with several insurance agents to see what is available at what cost.
There are many considerations, including "am I and is my family insurable?
"  The potential financial impact of that could be catastrophic.
Get real, not /., advice.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31238444</id>
	<title>Re:Umm</title>
	<author>SleazyRidr</author>
	<datestamp>1266843660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A quote from Australian politics. (I can't remember exaclty who said it but he was a Western Australian Liberal.)</p><p>"The Labour party claims that they will, lower taxes, spend more money, and have a larger surplus at the end. Why didn't we think of that?"</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>A quote from Australian politics .
( I ca n't remember exaclty who said it but he was a Western Australian Liberal .
) " The Labour party claims that they will , lower taxes , spend more money , and have a larger surplus at the end .
Why did n't we think of that ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A quote from Australian politics.
(I can't remember exaclty who said it but he was a Western Australian Liberal.
)"The Labour party claims that they will, lower taxes, spend more money, and have a larger surplus at the end.
Why didn't we think of that?
"
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233462</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231182</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>dunkelfalke</author>
	<datestamp>1266862380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Has it ever crossed your mind that $100/month for a family of four doesn't mean $25/person/month?<br>It is entirely possible that married people get a discount and family members get another discount.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Has it ever crossed your mind that $ 100/month for a family of four does n't mean $ 25/person/month ? It is entirely possible that married people get a discount and family members get another discount .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Has it ever crossed your mind that $100/month for a family of four doesn't mean $25/person/month?It is entirely possible that married people get a discount and family members get another discount.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230874</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231718</id>
	<title>Re:I did the same for a while...</title>
	<author>vcgodinich</author>
	<datestamp>1266863640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>No, you have to trade 15 hours per week to pay for the medical bills associated with living an UNhealthy life.</htmltext>
<tokenext>No , you have to trade 15 hours per week to pay for the medical bills associated with living an UNhealthy life .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, you have to trade 15 hours per week to pay for the medical bills associated with living an UNhealthy life.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230926</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232594</id>
	<title>Re:Missing argument in health-care debate</title>
	<author>bnenning</author>
	<datestamp>1266866220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I don't understand why this argument hasn't come up during the health-care debates.</p></div></blockquote><p>It has, but only by Republicans in half-hearted attempts to move away from employer-based coverage. Democrats generally want to increase mandates on companies to provide insurance for their employees.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't understand why this argument has n't come up during the health-care debates.It has , but only by Republicans in half-hearted attempts to move away from employer-based coverage .
Democrats generally want to increase mandates on companies to provide insurance for their employees .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't understand why this argument hasn't come up during the health-care debates.It has, but only by Republicans in half-hearted attempts to move away from employer-based coverage.
Democrats generally want to increase mandates on companies to provide insurance for their employees.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230838</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231000</id>
	<title>Facts.</title>
	<author>headkase</author>
	<datestamp>1266861960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'll tell you a fact from a Canadian perspective of a middle class person.  For all the complaining about the "death panels" we actually don't have here (vs. your for-profit insurance companies you guys do have) and saying that we have to wait forever (which we don't, prioritized: if you need it you get it *now*), when the average Canadian looks at the situation the average US'ian is in: we feel <b>HORROR</b>.  God people, how can you choose to do nothing about it?</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'll tell you a fact from a Canadian perspective of a middle class person .
For all the complaining about the " death panels " we actually do n't have here ( vs. your for-profit insurance companies you guys do have ) and saying that we have to wait forever ( which we do n't , prioritized : if you need it you get it * now * ) , when the average Canadian looks at the situation the average US'ian is in : we feel HORROR .
God people , how can you choose to do nothing about it ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'll tell you a fact from a Canadian perspective of a middle class person.
For all the complaining about the "death panels" we actually don't have here (vs. your for-profit insurance companies you guys do have) and saying that we have to wait forever (which we don't, prioritized: if you need it you get it *now*), when the average Canadian looks at the situation the average US'ian is in: we feel HORROR.
God people, how can you choose to do nothing about it?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231298</id>
	<title>American? Want Health Care?</title>
	<author>kawabago</author>
	<datestamp>1266862680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Move to Canada.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Move to Canada .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Move to Canada.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31237492</id>
	<title>Insurance pool</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266838920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Perhaps you should look into a non profit health insurance pool:<br>http://www.healthinsurance.org/risk\_pools/</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Perhaps you should look into a non profit health insurance pool : http : //www.healthinsurance.org/risk \ _pools/</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Perhaps you should look into a non profit health insurance pool:http://www.healthinsurance.org/risk\_pools/</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233854</id>
	<title>Ask Your Company's Insurer</title>
	<author>BlindSpot</author>
	<datestamp>1266870780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Check with your current employer's benefits provider.  A lot of them have a special plan that they let people who were previously covered by an employer's group plan join.  Often the cost is much less and no medical questionnaire is needed.  The kicker is you have to sign up within a short time after you lose your employer coverage, e.g. within 1 month.</p><p>Sadly I didn't discover this until much later when I went into contracting, so it was too late for me to do this at my last employer's health insurer.  If I'd known I would have signed up for it immediately.  So do your research and find out beforehand.  If your company's insurer doesn't do this you may be able to find a different insurer who will does; from what I've seen most of them don't seem to care if you were previously with someone else.</p><p>Disclaimer: I'm in Canada, these types of plans may not extend elsewhere..  (Oh and despite what so many others in this thread seem to be saying, not all healthcare is free in Canada.  True if you fall and break your arm you won't have to pay for the surgery or hospital stay, but (generally) you will have to pay for the ambulance, resulting perscriptions, physio after the fact, the time you take off work, etc.  Those costs add up, and that's why we also have health private plans here.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Check with your current employer 's benefits provider .
A lot of them have a special plan that they let people who were previously covered by an employer 's group plan join .
Often the cost is much less and no medical questionnaire is needed .
The kicker is you have to sign up within a short time after you lose your employer coverage , e.g .
within 1 month.Sadly I did n't discover this until much later when I went into contracting , so it was too late for me to do this at my last employer 's health insurer .
If I 'd known I would have signed up for it immediately .
So do your research and find out beforehand .
If your company 's insurer does n't do this you may be able to find a different insurer who will does ; from what I 've seen most of them do n't seem to care if you were previously with someone else.Disclaimer : I 'm in Canada , these types of plans may not extend elsewhere.. ( Oh and despite what so many others in this thread seem to be saying , not all healthcare is free in Canada .
True if you fall and break your arm you wo n't have to pay for the surgery or hospital stay , but ( generally ) you will have to pay for the ambulance , resulting perscriptions , physio after the fact , the time you take off work , etc .
Those costs add up , and that 's why we also have health private plans here .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Check with your current employer's benefits provider.
A lot of them have a special plan that they let people who were previously covered by an employer's group plan join.
Often the cost is much less and no medical questionnaire is needed.
The kicker is you have to sign up within a short time after you lose your employer coverage, e.g.
within 1 month.Sadly I didn't discover this until much later when I went into contracting, so it was too late for me to do this at my last employer's health insurer.
If I'd known I would have signed up for it immediately.
So do your research and find out beforehand.
If your company's insurer doesn't do this you may be able to find a different insurer who will does; from what I've seen most of them don't seem to care if you were previously with someone else.Disclaimer: I'm in Canada, these types of plans may not extend elsewhere..  (Oh and despite what so many others in this thread seem to be saying, not all healthcare is free in Canada.
True if you fall and break your arm you won't have to pay for the surgery or hospital stay, but (generally) you will have to pay for the ambulance, resulting perscriptions, physio after the fact, the time you take off work, etc.
Those costs add up, and that's why we also have health private plans here.
)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231486</id>
	<title>Move to a non-third world country</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266863100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The United States is not a viable option, if you value decent healthcare provision.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The United States is not a viable option , if you value decent healthcare provision .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The United States is not a viable option, if you value decent healthcare provision.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232022</id>
	<title>Re:I did the same for a while...</title>
	<author>vlm</author>
	<datestamp>1266864540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Why should money I earn be taxed and used to pay for benefits for you?</p></div><p>I'm guessing this guy is not a fan of his local fire department or the us coast guard.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why should money I earn be taxed and used to pay for benefits for you ? I 'm guessing this guy is not a fan of his local fire department or the us coast guard .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why should money I earn be taxed and used to pay for benefits for you?I'm guessing this guy is not a fan of his local fire department or the us coast guard.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231522</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232502</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Jawn98685</author>
	<datestamp>1266865980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Straw man...
<br>
Assumes things that are not true...
<br>
etc....
<br>
Those of us actually paying the bill for health care in the U.S. are paying to much. Period. We spend, overall, more dollars and have, by any credible measure, less to show for it. These facts are a matter of record. On the other hand, most of those countries who <i>do</i> get more for their money do it through some form of government run system. So tell us again how the U.S. government can't do what the government of every other industrialized country in the world does with no trouble?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Straw man.. . Assumes things that are not true.. . etc... . Those of us actually paying the bill for health care in the U.S. are paying to much .
Period. We spend , overall , more dollars and have , by any credible measure , less to show for it .
These facts are a matter of record .
On the other hand , most of those countries who do get more for their money do it through some form of government run system .
So tell us again how the U.S. government ca n't do what the government of every other industrialized country in the world does with no trouble ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Straw man...

Assumes things that are not true...

etc....

Those of us actually paying the bill for health care in the U.S. are paying to much.
Period. We spend, overall, more dollars and have, by any credible measure, less to show for it.
These facts are a matter of record.
On the other hand, most of those countries who do get more for their money do it through some form of government run system.
So tell us again how the U.S. government can't do what the government of every other industrialized country in the world does with no trouble?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231286</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31234606</id>
	<title>Re:Move where?</title>
	<author>Vintermann</author>
	<datestamp>1266829740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Seriously?</p><p>Canada, Canada, Canada.</p><p>Unless you were thinking along these lines already, you should not consider moving to a country very different from the US, and Canada is as close as it gets (both geographically and culturally).<br>Sure, Norway, Sweden, Germany etc. may sound nice and exotic, but immigrants always find differences they dislike - unless they were very motivated to start with, probably more things than they like. Then there's also the question of language. I estimate I spent around 1900 hours in school learning <i>your</i> language, and most of my classmates would not be comfortable posting to a public forum in English, even those who got an A (that means top 6\% here). Language learning times are underestimated, because those who do fail don't want to talk about it, and those who succeed talk it down, either to appear smart or because they ARE smart (less likely<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-P ) .</p><p>Ok, that was offtopic rant. I repeat: Canada, Canada, Canada. It's not a bad idea at all, I think.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Seriously ? Canada , Canada , Canada.Unless you were thinking along these lines already , you should not consider moving to a country very different from the US , and Canada is as close as it gets ( both geographically and culturally ) .Sure , Norway , Sweden , Germany etc .
may sound nice and exotic , but immigrants always find differences they dislike - unless they were very motivated to start with , probably more things than they like .
Then there 's also the question of language .
I estimate I spent around 1900 hours in school learning your language , and most of my classmates would not be comfortable posting to a public forum in English , even those who got an A ( that means top 6 \ % here ) .
Language learning times are underestimated , because those who do fail do n't want to talk about it , and those who succeed talk it down , either to appear smart or because they ARE smart ( less likely : -P ) .Ok , that was offtopic rant .
I repeat : Canada , Canada , Canada .
It 's not a bad idea at all , I think .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seriously?Canada, Canada, Canada.Unless you were thinking along these lines already, you should not consider moving to a country very different from the US, and Canada is as close as it gets (both geographically and culturally).Sure, Norway, Sweden, Germany etc.
may sound nice and exotic, but immigrants always find differences they dislike - unless they were very motivated to start with, probably more things than they like.
Then there's also the question of language.
I estimate I spent around 1900 hours in school learning your language, and most of my classmates would not be comfortable posting to a public forum in English, even those who got an A (that means top 6\% here).
Language learning times are underestimated, because those who do fail don't want to talk about it, and those who succeed talk it down, either to appear smart or because they ARE smart (less likely :-P ) .Ok, that was offtopic rant.
I repeat: Canada, Canada, Canada.
It's not a bad idea at all, I think.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230754</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31236604</id>
	<title>US system is designed for the employer</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266835800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The US system is designed to prevent skilled workers from going out on their own. The health insurance system is the most difficult hurdle, then there is the tax code that excludes software developers from having the 'safe harbor' aspects of contractor work. (This was one of the arguments of the suicidal aircraft pilot in Austin).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The US system is designed to prevent skilled workers from going out on their own .
The health insurance system is the most difficult hurdle , then there is the tax code that excludes software developers from having the 'safe harbor ' aspects of contractor work .
( This was one of the arguments of the suicidal aircraft pilot in Austin ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The US system is designed to prevent skilled workers from going out on their own.
The health insurance system is the most difficult hurdle, then there is the tax code that excludes software developers from having the 'safe harbor' aspects of contractor work.
(This was one of the arguments of the suicidal aircraft pilot in Austin).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31238676</id>
	<title>Re:I did the same for a while...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266845100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>That sounds an awful lot like indentured servitude to me.</p></div><p>Nothing of the sort.  Indentured servitude is when you're working to pay off a debt.  He was working in exchange for medical care.  You can argue that it was a bad deal, and that he should be able to get medical care more easily - but it's still nothing like indentured servitude.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>That sounds an awful lot like indentured servitude to me.Nothing of the sort .
Indentured servitude is when you 're working to pay off a debt .
He was working in exchange for medical care .
You can argue that it was a bad deal , and that he should be able to get medical care more easily - but it 's still nothing like indentured servitude .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That sounds an awful lot like indentured servitude to me.Nothing of the sort.
Indentured servitude is when you're working to pay off a debt.
He was working in exchange for medical care.
You can argue that it was a bad deal, and that he should be able to get medical care more easily - but it's still nothing like indentured servitude.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230926</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232346</id>
	<title>Re:You're fucked</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266865440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm an independent consultant with my own corporation.  I have 9 kids and a wife.  I've been dealing with this problem for almost 10 years now.</p><p>At first, I switched back and forth between w2 and independent.  I'd take a w2 contract for 6 months or so from a consulting firm that had health insurance (and take a dive on the rate to get it), then finish the contract, take cobra, and be independent for 18 months.  This sucks though because of the taking a dive on the rate.  It also causes tax problems being w2.</p><p>
&nbsp; </p><p><div class="quote"><p>Good luck.  Depending on what state you live in, you are either well and truly fucked, or deeply, seriously fucked.</p><p>The best thing you can do is start a trivial corporation, hire on some fake employees, and then get a group plan.</p></div><p>This works... sort of. But the insurance companies still rate you.  Group policies are (amazingly) regulated so that they're not allowed to charge you more than a 66\% increase over what the average premium is in your area.  You need two people (not more) on the policy.  One of you is a single parent with kids, the other an individual.  They can do the 66\% rate increase thing on both "policies".  Count on it happening if you had the sniffles 5 years ago.</p><p>Another option that most people don't know about is an employer of record service.  The idea is that you or your wife becomes an employee of this company.  They charge the employee health insurance like you're getting now.  Then they bill your corporation for this person's (you or your wife) services.  Then every gets added to the family policy.  We had been using this place called Solo W2 (nee Pace), but the health insurance premium got ridiculous, like $3000 a month.  We kept getting the impression that they were slime-balls also.  As I speak, I'm signing up with another place called MBO Partners.  They seem brutally legal.  But the health insurance is a more reasonable $2000 a month.  You have to run $7500 a month through them.  They take 3\% (iirc) of that as their fee.  They also give you all sorts of other tax benefits and other similar things you'd get as an employee.</p><p>This is sort of a mediocre arrangement.  It gets us health insurance, but makes us buy other "services" we don't want or need.  We seriously considered just going it alone.  Since, with prescription med copays, we were looking at $40k to $50k a year just for health insurance.  Banking that money would mean that we could just write a check for a broken leg or something.  Only the catastrophic things would kill us.  But with the preexisting condition rules and the reasonable and customary charge scam, we decided to go with mbo... for now.</p><p>What I <i>really</i> want is a public option or at least those exchanges they're talking about.  Oh, and get rid of the anti-trust law exemption and make the insurance companies compete across state lines.</p><p>If you're against any kind of health reform, just remember that the independent people are subsidizing the large group insurance you're getting now.  Sooner or later, they won't be able to squeeze us any harder, then expect your rates to rise.  When that happens, your employer will stop paying the rate increases and either fire you, or drop your coverage.  Then you're just as screwed as the rest of us.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm an independent consultant with my own corporation .
I have 9 kids and a wife .
I 've been dealing with this problem for almost 10 years now.At first , I switched back and forth between w2 and independent .
I 'd take a w2 contract for 6 months or so from a consulting firm that had health insurance ( and take a dive on the rate to get it ) , then finish the contract , take cobra , and be independent for 18 months .
This sucks though because of the taking a dive on the rate .
It also causes tax problems being w2 .
  Good luck .
Depending on what state you live in , you are either well and truly fucked , or deeply , seriously fucked.The best thing you can do is start a trivial corporation , hire on some fake employees , and then get a group plan.This works... sort of .
But the insurance companies still rate you .
Group policies are ( amazingly ) regulated so that they 're not allowed to charge you more than a 66 \ % increase over what the average premium is in your area .
You need two people ( not more ) on the policy .
One of you is a single parent with kids , the other an individual .
They can do the 66 \ % rate increase thing on both " policies " .
Count on it happening if you had the sniffles 5 years ago.Another option that most people do n't know about is an employer of record service .
The idea is that you or your wife becomes an employee of this company .
They charge the employee health insurance like you 're getting now .
Then they bill your corporation for this person 's ( you or your wife ) services .
Then every gets added to the family policy .
We had been using this place called Solo W2 ( nee Pace ) , but the health insurance premium got ridiculous , like $ 3000 a month .
We kept getting the impression that they were slime-balls also .
As I speak , I 'm signing up with another place called MBO Partners .
They seem brutally legal .
But the health insurance is a more reasonable $ 2000 a month .
You have to run $ 7500 a month through them .
They take 3 \ % ( iirc ) of that as their fee .
They also give you all sorts of other tax benefits and other similar things you 'd get as an employee.This is sort of a mediocre arrangement .
It gets us health insurance , but makes us buy other " services " we do n't want or need .
We seriously considered just going it alone .
Since , with prescription med copays , we were looking at $ 40k to $ 50k a year just for health insurance .
Banking that money would mean that we could just write a check for a broken leg or something .
Only the catastrophic things would kill us .
But with the preexisting condition rules and the reasonable and customary charge scam , we decided to go with mbo... for now.What I really want is a public option or at least those exchanges they 're talking about .
Oh , and get rid of the anti-trust law exemption and make the insurance companies compete across state lines.If you 're against any kind of health reform , just remember that the independent people are subsidizing the large group insurance you 're getting now .
Sooner or later , they wo n't be able to squeeze us any harder , then expect your rates to rise .
When that happens , your employer will stop paying the rate increases and either fire you , or drop your coverage .
Then you 're just as screwed as the rest of us .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm an independent consultant with my own corporation.
I have 9 kids and a wife.
I've been dealing with this problem for almost 10 years now.At first, I switched back and forth between w2 and independent.
I'd take a w2 contract for 6 months or so from a consulting firm that had health insurance (and take a dive on the rate to get it), then finish the contract, take cobra, and be independent for 18 months.
This sucks though because of the taking a dive on the rate.
It also causes tax problems being w2.
  Good luck.
Depending on what state you live in, you are either well and truly fucked, or deeply, seriously fucked.The best thing you can do is start a trivial corporation, hire on some fake employees, and then get a group plan.This works... sort of.
But the insurance companies still rate you.
Group policies are (amazingly) regulated so that they're not allowed to charge you more than a 66\% increase over what the average premium is in your area.
You need two people (not more) on the policy.
One of you is a single parent with kids, the other an individual.
They can do the 66\% rate increase thing on both "policies".
Count on it happening if you had the sniffles 5 years ago.Another option that most people don't know about is an employer of record service.
The idea is that you or your wife becomes an employee of this company.
They charge the employee health insurance like you're getting now.
Then they bill your corporation for this person's (you or your wife) services.
Then every gets added to the family policy.
We had been using this place called Solo W2 (nee Pace), but the health insurance premium got ridiculous, like $3000 a month.
We kept getting the impression that they were slime-balls also.
As I speak, I'm signing up with another place called MBO Partners.
They seem brutally legal.
But the health insurance is a more reasonable $2000 a month.
You have to run $7500 a month through them.
They take 3\% (iirc) of that as their fee.
They also give you all sorts of other tax benefits and other similar things you'd get as an employee.This is sort of a mediocre arrangement.
It gets us health insurance, but makes us buy other "services" we don't want or need.
We seriously considered just going it alone.
Since, with prescription med copays, we were looking at $40k to $50k a year just for health insurance.
Banking that money would mean that we could just write a check for a broken leg or something.
Only the catastrophic things would kill us.
But with the preexisting condition rules and the reasonable and customary charge scam, we decided to go with mbo... for now.What I really want is a public option or at least those exchanges they're talking about.
Oh, and get rid of the anti-trust law exemption and make the insurance companies compete across state lines.If you're against any kind of health reform, just remember that the independent people are subsidizing the large group insurance you're getting now.
Sooner or later, they won't be able to squeeze us any harder, then expect your rates to rise.
When that happens, your employer will stop paying the rate increases and either fire you, or drop your coverage.
Then you're just as screwed as the rest of us.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230606</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232444</id>
	<title>Shop around, do the math</title>
	<author>burnin1965</author>
	<datestamp>1266865800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Shop around for various providers and coverage levels.</p><p>Do the math to determine the value of the packages your interested in.</p><p>Keep in mind, insurance carriers are not interested in providing the best coverage for the best price, their objective is to profit.</p><p>If your family risk level is low you may be better off with a policy that mainly covers unexpected medical needs and use out of pocket cash to cover routine health care.</p><p>A comprehensive coverage package will be very expensive and the amount of coverage versus cost seems to vary greatly from state to state.</p><p>If your looking at an expensive comprehensive policy run the numbers and compare the expensive policy to a cheap one where you place the difference in monthly premiums into a savings account.</p><p>Of course the cheap policy with a savings account requires self discipline to maintain funding of the medical savings account. If you lack the discipline to manage finances responsibly then you may be better off with the expensive policy.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Shop around for various providers and coverage levels.Do the math to determine the value of the packages your interested in.Keep in mind , insurance carriers are not interested in providing the best coverage for the best price , their objective is to profit.If your family risk level is low you may be better off with a policy that mainly covers unexpected medical needs and use out of pocket cash to cover routine health care.A comprehensive coverage package will be very expensive and the amount of coverage versus cost seems to vary greatly from state to state.If your looking at an expensive comprehensive policy run the numbers and compare the expensive policy to a cheap one where you place the difference in monthly premiums into a savings account.Of course the cheap policy with a savings account requires self discipline to maintain funding of the medical savings account .
If you lack the discipline to manage finances responsibly then you may be better off with the expensive policy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Shop around for various providers and coverage levels.Do the math to determine the value of the packages your interested in.Keep in mind, insurance carriers are not interested in providing the best coverage for the best price, their objective is to profit.If your family risk level is low you may be better off with a policy that mainly covers unexpected medical needs and use out of pocket cash to cover routine health care.A comprehensive coverage package will be very expensive and the amount of coverage versus cost seems to vary greatly from state to state.If your looking at an expensive comprehensive policy run the numbers and compare the expensive policy to a cheap one where you place the difference in monthly premiums into a savings account.Of course the cheap policy with a savings account requires self discipline to maintain funding of the medical savings account.
If you lack the discipline to manage finances responsibly then you may be better off with the expensive policy.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31237588</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266839340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I am the person who thinks I should not be required to pay for someone who can afford health insurance, but chooses not to, like the majority of the so called folks without health insurance in the US.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I am the person who thinks I should not be required to pay for someone who can afford health insurance , but chooses not to , like the majority of the so called folks without health insurance in the US .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am the person who thinks I should not be required to pay for someone who can afford health insurance, but chooses not to, like the majority of the so called folks without health insurance in the US.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231286</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230726</id>
	<title>vote for democrats</title>
	<author>danlip</author>
	<datestamp>1266861180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>they'll give us universal healthcare<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... oh, wait, nevermind.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>they 'll give us universal healthcare ... oh , wait , nevermind .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>they'll give us universal healthcare ... oh, wait, nevermind.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231018</id>
	<title>Come to Canada</title>
	<author>bogaboga</author>
	<datestamp>1266862020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, my advice to you would be to set-up your company in Canada.</p><p>If you did that, you will enjoy preferential trade access to the US market, standards of living comparable if not better than those in the US, and a healthcare system you do not have to worry about.</p><p>Best of all, your life expectancy will be nudged up a notch.</p><p>My only problem with Canada is the fact that its market is secondary to US companies more often than not. This means that the Droid, Nexus and other phones will always be late in the Canadian market.</p><p>How is that?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , my advice to you would be to set-up your company in Canada.If you did that , you will enjoy preferential trade access to the US market , standards of living comparable if not better than those in the US , and a healthcare system you do not have to worry about.Best of all , your life expectancy will be nudged up a notch.My only problem with Canada is the fact that its market is secondary to US companies more often than not .
This means that the Droid , Nexus and other phones will always be late in the Canadian market.How is that ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, my advice to you would be to set-up your company in Canada.If you did that, you will enjoy preferential trade access to the US market, standards of living comparable if not better than those in the US, and a healthcare system you do not have to worry about.Best of all, your life expectancy will be nudged up a notch.My only problem with Canada is the fact that its market is secondary to US companies more often than not.
This means that the Droid, Nexus and other phones will always be late in the Canadian market.How is that?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233352</id>
	<title>Apparently, we in the USA are just so lame....</title>
	<author>gestalt\_n\_pepper</author>
	<datestamp>1266869100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We can't do what virtually every other first world democracy has done (i.e. provide taxpayer funded universal medical coverage).</p><p>Yes, the USA sure is "special."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We ca n't do what virtually every other first world democracy has done ( i.e .
provide taxpayer funded universal medical coverage ) .Yes , the USA sure is " special .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We can't do what virtually every other first world democracy has done (i.e.
provide taxpayer funded universal medical coverage).Yes, the USA sure is "special.
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233378</id>
	<title>I fail to see how it's efficient capitalism...</title>
	<author>U96</author>
	<datestamp>1266869160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>... to force someone who wants to start up his own business to squander his time with concerns like this.

Given the amount of taxpayer dollars spent per capita on healthcare in the U.S. compared to other western countries, it's certainly not an efficient use of taxes either...</htmltext>
<tokenext>... to force someone who wants to start up his own business to squander his time with concerns like this .
Given the amount of taxpayer dollars spent per capita on healthcare in the U.S. compared to other western countries , it 's certainly not an efficient use of taxes either.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... to force someone who wants to start up his own business to squander his time with concerns like this.
Given the amount of taxpayer dollars spent per capita on healthcare in the U.S. compared to other western countries, it's certainly not an efficient use of taxes either...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230988</id>
	<title>Back to school</title>
	<author>NEDHead</author>
	<datestamp>1266861960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>1)  In Massachusetts, my wife &amp; I have adequate, if not great, insurance through the state clearinghouse for $850/mo

2) Most colleges/community colleges require insurance for enrolled students &gt;&gt;and if you don't have it elsewhere, have group plans that are ok, and real cheap.
 Last time my wife took some courses it was  ~$3k/year for both of us.  Even adding in the cost of a course...of course.</htmltext>
<tokenext>1 ) In Massachusetts , my wife &amp; I have adequate , if not great , insurance through the state clearinghouse for $ 850/mo 2 ) Most colleges/community colleges require insurance for enrolled students &gt; &gt; and if you do n't have it elsewhere , have group plans that are ok , and real cheap .
Last time my wife took some courses it was ~ $ 3k/year for both of us .
Even adding in the cost of a course...of course .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>1)  In Massachusetts, my wife &amp; I have adequate, if not great, insurance through the state clearinghouse for $850/mo

2) Most colleges/community colleges require insurance for enrolled students &gt;&gt;and if you don't have it elsewhere, have group plans that are ok, and real cheap.
Last time my wife took some courses it was  ~$3k/year for both of us.
Even adding in the cost of a course...of course.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230690</id>
	<title>Try western Europe</title>
	<author>DoofusOfDeath</author>
	<datestamp>1266861060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you can get one of those countries to let you in, many of them have decent healthcare systems that don't tie you to a particular employer.  I'm sure many of them are good, but Germany immediately comes to mind.</p><p>The problem is that to immigrate, many require you to either have a job waiting for you, or to be opening a business with some kind of (hard) guarantee of employing locals.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you can get one of those countries to let you in , many of them have decent healthcare systems that do n't tie you to a particular employer .
I 'm sure many of them are good , but Germany immediately comes to mind.The problem is that to immigrate , many require you to either have a job waiting for you , or to be opening a business with some kind of ( hard ) guarantee of employing locals .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you can get one of those countries to let you in, many of them have decent healthcare systems that don't tie you to a particular employer.
I'm sure many of them are good, but Germany immediately comes to mind.The problem is that to immigrate, many require you to either have a job waiting for you, or to be opening a business with some kind of (hard) guarantee of employing locals.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31238562</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266844320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Only a raging sociopath, or completely greedy asshole is against paying higher taxes to make sure everyone around him is in good health.</p></div><p>I'm willing to work an extra day a week to pay for my neighbour's heart medication.  I'm not willing to work 14 hours a day, every day - that would defeat the purpose, prolonging his life at the expense of everything I want to do with mine.  There's a continuum here, between doing absolutely nothing for your neighbour and selling yourself into slavery for them, and there's no absolute place on that spectrum where someone becomes a "raging sociopath".</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Only a raging sociopath , or completely greedy asshole is against paying higher taxes to make sure everyone around him is in good health.I 'm willing to work an extra day a week to pay for my neighbour 's heart medication .
I 'm not willing to work 14 hours a day , every day - that would defeat the purpose , prolonging his life at the expense of everything I want to do with mine .
There 's a continuum here , between doing absolutely nothing for your neighbour and selling yourself into slavery for them , and there 's no absolute place on that spectrum where someone becomes a " raging sociopath " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Only a raging sociopath, or completely greedy asshole is against paying higher taxes to make sure everyone around him is in good health.I'm willing to work an extra day a week to pay for my neighbour's heart medication.
I'm not willing to work 14 hours a day, every day - that would defeat the purpose, prolonging his life at the expense of everything I want to do with mine.
There's a continuum here, between doing absolutely nothing for your neighbour and selling yourself into slavery for them, and there's no absolute place on that spectrum where someone becomes a "raging sociopath".
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231286</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232290</id>
	<title>Sounds Like</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266865200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sounds like Anonymous Reader is a twit from the number one country in the world. He's probably voted for politicians who've advocated and supported invasions of other countries and endless violations of human rights.</p><p>He wants our help?</p><p>Fuck him.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sounds like Anonymous Reader is a twit from the number one country in the world .
He 's probably voted for politicians who 've advocated and supported invasions of other countries and endless violations of human rights.He wants our help ? Fuck him .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sounds like Anonymous Reader is a twit from the number one country in the world.
He's probably voted for politicians who've advocated and supported invasions of other countries and endless violations of human rights.He wants our help?Fuck him.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230970</id>
	<title>Hawaii?  Massachusetts?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266861900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't know if you're able to move or not, but the situation isn't the same in every state.  Maybe you could move to Hawaii, for example.</p><p>It might be overkill, but if you really want to go out on your own, that could be a path forward.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't know if you 're able to move or not , but the situation is n't the same in every state .
Maybe you could move to Hawaii , for example.It might be overkill , but if you really want to go out on your own , that could be a path forward .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't know if you're able to move or not, but the situation isn't the same in every state.
Maybe you could move to Hawaii, for example.It might be overkill, but if you really want to go out on your own, that could be a path forward.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231676</id>
	<title>Repeat after me...</title>
	<author>cvtan</author>
	<datestamp>1266863520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There is nothing wrong with health care in the USA.  Every day you are getting better and better.  Insurance companies will take care of you.  The government can't do anything right, so don't let them mess with health care.  The health care that politicians have is not really what you want.  That lump on your face is really attractive and does not need a biopsy...</htmltext>
<tokenext>There is nothing wrong with health care in the USA .
Every day you are getting better and better .
Insurance companies will take care of you .
The government ca n't do anything right , so do n't let them mess with health care .
The health care that politicians have is not really what you want .
That lump on your face is really attractive and does not need a biopsy.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is nothing wrong with health care in the USA.
Every day you are getting better and better.
Insurance companies will take care of you.
The government can't do anything right, so don't let them mess with health care.
The health care that politicians have is not really what you want.
That lump on your face is really attractive and does not need a biopsy...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232718</id>
	<title>Re:I did the same for a while...</title>
	<author>icejai</author>
	<datestamp>1266866640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"As opposed to what? Somebody else trading 15 hours of THEIR life simply so YOU can live a healthy life?"<br>"Why should money I earn be taxed and used to pay for benefits for you?"</p><p>Uh, if you pay for your own insurance and file a claim, where do you think your insurance company acquires the money to pay for your claim? Do you honestly believe they simply pay you with the money you already gave them?</p><p>No matter what insurance you pay into, you *will* be paying for somebody else's benefit, as they will be paying for your benefit as well. That is the *very nature* of insurance.</p><p>If you *still* feel different, you should put your money where your mouth is and cancel all your health insurance policies and simply put those monthly payments into a self-guided investment account.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... and good luck with *that*.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" As opposed to what ?
Somebody else trading 15 hours of THEIR life simply so YOU can live a healthy life ?
" " Why should money I earn be taxed and used to pay for benefits for you ?
" Uh , if you pay for your own insurance and file a claim , where do you think your insurance company acquires the money to pay for your claim ?
Do you honestly believe they simply pay you with the money you already gave them ? No matter what insurance you pay into , you * will * be paying for somebody else 's benefit , as they will be paying for your benefit as well .
That is the * very nature * of insurance.If you * still * feel different , you should put your money where your mouth is and cancel all your health insurance policies and simply put those monthly payments into a self-guided investment account .
... and good luck with * that * .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"As opposed to what?
Somebody else trading 15 hours of THEIR life simply so YOU can live a healthy life?
""Why should money I earn be taxed and used to pay for benefits for you?
"Uh, if you pay for your own insurance and file a claim, where do you think your insurance company acquires the money to pay for your claim?
Do you honestly believe they simply pay you with the money you already gave them?No matter what insurance you pay into, you *will* be paying for somebody else's benefit, as they will be paying for your benefit as well.
That is the *very nature* of insurance.If you *still* feel different, you should put your money where your mouth is and cancel all your health insurance policies and simply put those monthly payments into a self-guided investment account.
... and good luck with *that*.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231522</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233056</id>
	<title>Three words:</title>
	<author>Ihlosi</author>
	<datestamp>1266867900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You are screwed.<p>

At least if you're living in the US. Move to a country that has some sanity in their healthcare system, even if you're not into the whole public option thing. Germany, for example. You can private health insurance if you're self-employed there.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You are screwed .
At least if you 're living in the US .
Move to a country that has some sanity in their healthcare system , even if you 're not into the whole public option thing .
Germany , for example .
You can private health insurance if you 're self-employed there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are screwed.
At least if you're living in the US.
Move to a country that has some sanity in their healthcare system, even if you're not into the whole public option thing.
Germany, for example.
You can private health insurance if you're self-employed there.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231340</id>
	<title>Re:Facts.</title>
	<author>Moridineas</author>
	<datestamp>1266862740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>we feel HORROR. God people, how can you choose to do nothing about it?</p></div><p>Just curious, what do you feel horror about? I mean, what aspect (or aspects) of the way healthcare in US works (or doesn't work) alarms you the most?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>we feel HORROR .
God people , how can you choose to do nothing about it ? Just curious , what do you feel horror about ?
I mean , what aspect ( or aspects ) of the way healthcare in US works ( or does n't work ) alarms you the most ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>we feel HORROR.
God people, how can you choose to do nothing about it?Just curious, what do you feel horror about?
I mean, what aspect (or aspects) of the way healthcare in US works (or doesn't work) alarms you the most?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231000</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31238736</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266845460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm #3: I have no problem paying higher taxes to make sure that everyone around me is in good health. I simply don't trust my government to design and effectively implement such a system. I don't trust my government to give themselves any sort of accountability or provide me with a means of recourse if they (whether by circumstance or litigious refusal) fail to provide the healthcare they promise when it comes to vote. About the only thing I trust my government to do is to pull a bait-and-switch, whereby all of the taxes that are coming out of my paycheck for the very cause on which we agree, end up going somewhere else. If the government provides a bill with proper checks and balances and gives citizens recourse and a means to penalize the government in the event of abuse on their end, then I'm all for this system.</p><p>The flip side of your question is this: would you rather have $$$$ taken out of your paycheck in the name of healthcare and NOT have it go towards helping people around you, or would you rather keep the money?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm # 3 : I have no problem paying higher taxes to make sure that everyone around me is in good health .
I simply do n't trust my government to design and effectively implement such a system .
I do n't trust my government to give themselves any sort of accountability or provide me with a means of recourse if they ( whether by circumstance or litigious refusal ) fail to provide the healthcare they promise when it comes to vote .
About the only thing I trust my government to do is to pull a bait-and-switch , whereby all of the taxes that are coming out of my paycheck for the very cause on which we agree , end up going somewhere else .
If the government provides a bill with proper checks and balances and gives citizens recourse and a means to penalize the government in the event of abuse on their end , then I 'm all for this system.The flip side of your question is this : would you rather have $ $ $ $ taken out of your paycheck in the name of healthcare and NOT have it go towards helping people around you , or would you rather keep the money ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm #3: I have no problem paying higher taxes to make sure that everyone around me is in good health.
I simply don't trust my government to design and effectively implement such a system.
I don't trust my government to give themselves any sort of accountability or provide me with a means of recourse if they (whether by circumstance or litigious refusal) fail to provide the healthcare they promise when it comes to vote.
About the only thing I trust my government to do is to pull a bait-and-switch, whereby all of the taxes that are coming out of my paycheck for the very cause on which we agree, end up going somewhere else.
If the government provides a bill with proper checks and balances and gives citizens recourse and a means to penalize the government in the event of abuse on their end, then I'm all for this system.The flip side of your question is this: would you rather have $$$$ taken out of your paycheck in the name of healthcare and NOT have it go towards helping people around you, or would you rather keep the money?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231286</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230888</id>
	<title>HSA</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266861660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I bought an HSA when a few years ago my company raised insurance premiums. They had a plan and were self insured so basically we just paid for what the cost was divided by number of employees. We had some employees that enjoyed the outdoors and got into a lot of accidents that raised the costs for everyone. My family plan was $700/mo.</p><p>So I went out on my own and got an high deductible HSA from Humana. It was about $200 a month for a family of 4. It had a $10k deductible so basically you are paying for your own health care unless you have something major happen. Then it paid 100\% above the $10k. The good part is you can put up to $10k pre-tax into the HSA savings account. You can then pay your health bills using pre-tax money. They had a PPO which means they have a network of doctors you can use that they have a negotiated prices. But you can use any doctor you want.</p><p>What I found is that we shopped around. You would be amazed at the difference in prices if you say you will pay at the time of service. Some doctors wouldn't quote us a price for the visit so we didn't go there. Also we shopped around for drug prices and found that most of the big pharmacies will match prices.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I bought an HSA when a few years ago my company raised insurance premiums .
They had a plan and were self insured so basically we just paid for what the cost was divided by number of employees .
We had some employees that enjoyed the outdoors and got into a lot of accidents that raised the costs for everyone .
My family plan was $ 700/mo.So I went out on my own and got an high deductible HSA from Humana .
It was about $ 200 a month for a family of 4 .
It had a $ 10k deductible so basically you are paying for your own health care unless you have something major happen .
Then it paid 100 \ % above the $ 10k .
The good part is you can put up to $ 10k pre-tax into the HSA savings account .
You can then pay your health bills using pre-tax money .
They had a PPO which means they have a network of doctors you can use that they have a negotiated prices .
But you can use any doctor you want.What I found is that we shopped around .
You would be amazed at the difference in prices if you say you will pay at the time of service .
Some doctors would n't quote us a price for the visit so we did n't go there .
Also we shopped around for drug prices and found that most of the big pharmacies will match prices .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I bought an HSA when a few years ago my company raised insurance premiums.
They had a plan and were self insured so basically we just paid for what the cost was divided by number of employees.
We had some employees that enjoyed the outdoors and got into a lot of accidents that raised the costs for everyone.
My family plan was $700/mo.So I went out on my own and got an high deductible HSA from Humana.
It was about $200 a month for a family of 4.
It had a $10k deductible so basically you are paying for your own health care unless you have something major happen.
Then it paid 100\% above the $10k.
The good part is you can put up to $10k pre-tax into the HSA savings account.
You can then pay your health bills using pre-tax money.
They had a PPO which means they have a network of doctors you can use that they have a negotiated prices.
But you can use any doctor you want.What I found is that we shopped around.
You would be amazed at the difference in prices if you say you will pay at the time of service.
Some doctors wouldn't quote us a price for the visit so we didn't go there.
Also we shopped around for drug prices and found that most of the big pharmacies will match prices.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31236868</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Skuld-Chan</author>
	<datestamp>1266836460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's the wonderful irony - we pay more than any other country on earth, but in general get worse results - oh and we have a missle defense system to defend ourselves from those evil'doer terraists.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's the wonderful irony - we pay more than any other country on earth , but in general get worse results - oh and we have a missle defense system to defend ourselves from those evil'doer terraists .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's the wonderful irony - we pay more than any other country on earth, but in general get worse results - oh and we have a missle defense system to defend ourselves from those evil'doer terraists.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231438</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31237256</id>
	<title>Re:Missing argument in health-care debate</title>
	<author>turkeyfish</author>
	<datestamp>1266837900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"It would have let Democrats position themselves as pro-economy."</p><p>Not really, by letting heath care costs continue to sky-rocket and be ready to do health-insurance companies bidding, republicans can argue that they are more more "pro-economy" because after all health insurance executives control more and more of the US economy ever day.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" It would have let Democrats position themselves as pro-economy .
" Not really , by letting heath care costs continue to sky-rocket and be ready to do health-insurance companies bidding , republicans can argue that they are more more " pro-economy " because after all health insurance executives control more and more of the US economy ever day .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"It would have let Democrats position themselves as pro-economy.
"Not really, by letting heath care costs continue to sky-rocket and be ready to do health-insurance companies bidding, republicans can argue that they are more more "pro-economy" because after all health insurance executives control more and more of the US economy ever day.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230838</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31237512</id>
	<title>Canada</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266838980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Canada is your answer. Free doctors. End of story.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Canada is your answer .
Free doctors .
End of story .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Canada is your answer.
Free doctors.
End of story.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231438</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Abcd1234</author>
	<datestamp>1266862980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Total healthcare spending in Canada last year was $160 billion or so. So $10 billion was paid by the people, and the other $150 billion was magically wished into existence by healthcare fairies</i></p><p>Of course not.  It was paid for the same way that America's massive defense expenditures were paid for, or Medicare was paid for, or Veteran's benefits were paid for: taxes.  We just choose to allocate taxes toward funding universal healthcare.  You guys picked missile defense , cutting-edge interceptors, and nation building.  To each his/her own. *shrug*</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Total healthcare spending in Canada last year was $ 160 billion or so .
So $ 10 billion was paid by the people , and the other $ 150 billion was magically wished into existence by healthcare fairiesOf course not .
It was paid for the same way that America 's massive defense expenditures were paid for , or Medicare was paid for , or Veteran 's benefits were paid for : taxes .
We just choose to allocate taxes toward funding universal healthcare .
You guys picked missile defense , cutting-edge interceptors , and nation building .
To each his/her own .
* shrug *</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Total healthcare spending in Canada last year was $160 billion or so.
So $10 billion was paid by the people, and the other $150 billion was magically wished into existence by healthcare fairiesOf course not.
It was paid for the same way that America's massive defense expenditures were paid for, or Medicare was paid for, or Veteran's benefits were paid for: taxes.
We just choose to allocate taxes toward funding universal healthcare.
You guys picked missile defense , cutting-edge interceptors, and nation building.
To each his/her own.
*shrug*</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230874</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31237692</id>
	<title>Re:I did the same for a while...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266839760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Middle class has plenty of options, it is just here in the US people would rather spend their money on booze and cigs then buy heath insurance, pretty ironic really.</p><p>Sorry but me paying for people who are too cheap to buy their issuance is not a better system.</p><p>He did not have to work 15 hours a week to live healthy, he had to work that 15 hours to get cheaper health issurance.. Cheaper health issuance does not equal living healthy, only you can live healthy.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Middle class has plenty of options , it is just here in the US people would rather spend their money on booze and cigs then buy heath insurance , pretty ironic really.Sorry but me paying for people who are too cheap to buy their issuance is not a better system.He did not have to work 15 hours a week to live healthy , he had to work that 15 hours to get cheaper health issurance.. Cheaper health issuance does not equal living healthy , only you can live healthy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Middle class has plenty of options, it is just here in the US people would rather spend their money on booze and cigs then buy heath insurance, pretty ironic really.Sorry but me paying for people who are too cheap to buy their issuance is not a better system.He did not have to work 15 hours a week to live healthy, he had to work that 15 hours to get cheaper health issurance.. Cheaper health issuance does not equal living healthy, only you can live healthy.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230926</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231068</id>
	<title>Buy insurance with large deductable</title>
	<author>donberryman</author>
	<datestamp>1266862140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've been doing this for years. BCBS, at least in the state of Minnesota, offers family plans with large deductibles at fairly affordable rates.

Of course, with a $5,000 - $10,000 deductible, you're likely to never collect, however you do benefit from the negotiated rates that insurance companies have with service providers.

I choose the option that pays 100\% after the deductible, figuring that if something catastrophic happens, I don't want to pay 20\% of those huge bills for heart surgery, transplants, cancer treatment, etc.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've been doing this for years .
BCBS , at least in the state of Minnesota , offers family plans with large deductibles at fairly affordable rates .
Of course , with a $ 5,000 - $ 10,000 deductible , you 're likely to never collect , however you do benefit from the negotiated rates that insurance companies have with service providers .
I choose the option that pays 100 \ % after the deductible , figuring that if something catastrophic happens , I do n't want to pay 20 \ % of those huge bills for heart surgery , transplants , cancer treatment , etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've been doing this for years.
BCBS, at least in the state of Minnesota, offers family plans with large deductibles at fairly affordable rates.
Of course, with a $5,000 - $10,000 deductible, you're likely to never collect, however you do benefit from the negotiated rates that insurance companies have with service providers.
I choose the option that pays 100\% after the deductible, figuring that if something catastrophic happens, I don't want to pay 20\% of those huge bills for heart surgery, transplants, cancer treatment, etc.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231208</id>
	<title>Re:Just forget paying</title>
	<author>Phairdon</author>
	<datestamp>1266862440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When you consider how much you and your company spent to cover you while you were employed, and the fact you almost never used it, it's a huge financial drain with the only winner being the insurance companies.</p><p>I don't think you understand the whole point of insurance. When you buy insurance you are making an agreement with other citizens that you are all paying into this group fund when you are healthy and in return this group fund will cover your butt when you need some serious medical treatment.  How is this bad? Or do you just expect someone to cover your bills when you get sick when you didn't pay when you were healthy?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When you consider how much you and your company spent to cover you while you were employed , and the fact you almost never used it , it 's a huge financial drain with the only winner being the insurance companies.I do n't think you understand the whole point of insurance .
When you buy insurance you are making an agreement with other citizens that you are all paying into this group fund when you are healthy and in return this group fund will cover your butt when you need some serious medical treatment .
How is this bad ?
Or do you just expect someone to cover your bills when you get sick when you did n't pay when you were healthy ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When you consider how much you and your company spent to cover you while you were employed, and the fact you almost never used it, it's a huge financial drain with the only winner being the insurance companies.I don't think you understand the whole point of insurance.
When you buy insurance you are making an agreement with other citizens that you are all paying into this group fund when you are healthy and in return this group fund will cover your butt when you need some serious medical treatment.
How is this bad?
Or do you just expect someone to cover your bills when you get sick when you didn't pay when you were healthy?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230848</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230848</id>
	<title>Just forget paying</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266861540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Here's the easiest solution.  Find out how much you would pay in yearly premiums to cover you and your family, then find out how much visits to the doctor and dentist would cost you if you had no insurance.  I'm certain you'll see a huge discrepancy between the two.</p><p>For the average, healthy, person, it is much more cost effective to pay your own doctor bills than it is to get insurance.  The extra money you save can be put into a money market account to collect interest in case something large comes up.</p><p>When you consider how much you and your company spent to cover you while you were employed, and the fact you almost never used it, it's a huge financial drain with the only winner being the insurance companies.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Here 's the easiest solution .
Find out how much you would pay in yearly premiums to cover you and your family , then find out how much visits to the doctor and dentist would cost you if you had no insurance .
I 'm certain you 'll see a huge discrepancy between the two.For the average , healthy , person , it is much more cost effective to pay your own doctor bills than it is to get insurance .
The extra money you save can be put into a money market account to collect interest in case something large comes up.When you consider how much you and your company spent to cover you while you were employed , and the fact you almost never used it , it 's a huge financial drain with the only winner being the insurance companies .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here's the easiest solution.
Find out how much you would pay in yearly premiums to cover you and your family, then find out how much visits to the doctor and dentist would cost you if you had no insurance.
I'm certain you'll see a huge discrepancy between the two.For the average, healthy, person, it is much more cost effective to pay your own doctor bills than it is to get insurance.
The extra money you save can be put into a money market account to collect interest in case something large comes up.When you consider how much you and your company spent to cover you while you were employed, and the fact you almost never used it, it's a huge financial drain with the only winner being the insurance companies.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31237404</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Stradivarius</author>
	<datestamp>1266838560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Only a raging sociopath, or completely greedy asshole is against paying higher taxes to make sure everyone around him is in good health.</p></div><p>No need to flame. The dude was just pointing out that if you want to compare costs among various possible reforms (i.e. market-based, single-payer, hybrid, etc), you need to account for ALL the costs to the citizens, not just the ones they make directly.</p><p>Note that he didn't say he was opposed to higher taxes for better care.</p><p>But if you want to go there... how much of your paycheck should go to your neighbor's health care? I'm sure it's not 100\% (for obvious practical reasons), so what is fair?  How good of health does he need to be before your obligation is met? Do you have to work half the year for it? 3/4?</p><p>I have a feeling if you asked a lot of good, generous people this question, you'd likely get different answers. They are not raging sociopaths or greedy assholes, but probably feel there is a limit to their obligations in this regard. After all, people have other obligations to meet too (helping elderly parents, sending kids to college, etc).</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Only a raging sociopath , or completely greedy asshole is against paying higher taxes to make sure everyone around him is in good health.No need to flame .
The dude was just pointing out that if you want to compare costs among various possible reforms ( i.e .
market-based , single-payer , hybrid , etc ) , you need to account for ALL the costs to the citizens , not just the ones they make directly.Note that he did n't say he was opposed to higher taxes for better care.But if you want to go there... how much of your paycheck should go to your neighbor 's health care ?
I 'm sure it 's not 100 \ % ( for obvious practical reasons ) , so what is fair ?
How good of health does he need to be before your obligation is met ?
Do you have to work half the year for it ?
3/4 ? I have a feeling if you asked a lot of good , generous people this question , you 'd likely get different answers .
They are not raging sociopaths or greedy assholes , but probably feel there is a limit to their obligations in this regard .
After all , people have other obligations to meet too ( helping elderly parents , sending kids to college , etc ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Only a raging sociopath, or completely greedy asshole is against paying higher taxes to make sure everyone around him is in good health.No need to flame.
The dude was just pointing out that if you want to compare costs among various possible reforms (i.e.
market-based, single-payer, hybrid, etc), you need to account for ALL the costs to the citizens, not just the ones they make directly.Note that he didn't say he was opposed to higher taxes for better care.But if you want to go there... how much of your paycheck should go to your neighbor's health care?
I'm sure it's not 100\% (for obvious practical reasons), so what is fair?
How good of health does he need to be before your obligation is met?
Do you have to work half the year for it?
3/4?I have a feeling if you asked a lot of good, generous people this question, you'd likely get different answers.
They are not raging sociopaths or greedy assholes, but probably feel there is a limit to their obligations in this regard.
After all, people have other obligations to meet too (helping elderly parents, sending kids to college, etc).
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231286</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31239548</id>
	<title>Re:Move where?</title>
	<author>youngone</author>
	<datestamp>1266850200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Try New Zealand. We have a system of points where the amount of money you bring in to invest, your level of education, English lanuguage ability and job skills all add up to a number that will allow you to get residency. The place is not perfect, but its not too bad. We have Socialized medicine here, funded by taxes and it works ok. The climate is not too exteme, (although the bottom of the South Island is pretty cold in the winter), and the people are usually very friendly. The down side is that our national sports are Rugby and cricket, and the rules are pretty complicated for those not bought up in a culture where they're played. A German friend of mine has given up on learning about Test Cricket, it just takes too much effort.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Try New Zealand .
We have a system of points where the amount of money you bring in to invest , your level of education , English lanuguage ability and job skills all add up to a number that will allow you to get residency .
The place is not perfect , but its not too bad .
We have Socialized medicine here , funded by taxes and it works ok. The climate is not too exteme , ( although the bottom of the South Island is pretty cold in the winter ) , and the people are usually very friendly .
The down side is that our national sports are Rugby and cricket , and the rules are pretty complicated for those not bought up in a culture where they 're played .
A German friend of mine has given up on learning about Test Cricket , it just takes too much effort .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Try New Zealand.
We have a system of points where the amount of money you bring in to invest, your level of education, English lanuguage ability and job skills all add up to a number that will allow you to get residency.
The place is not perfect, but its not too bad.
We have Socialized medicine here, funded by taxes and it works ok. The climate is not too exteme, (although the bottom of the South Island is pretty cold in the winter), and the people are usually very friendly.
The down side is that our national sports are Rugby and cricket, and the rules are pretty complicated for those not bought up in a culture where they're played.
A German friend of mine has given up on learning about Test Cricket, it just takes too much effort.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231030</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231960</id>
	<title>Re:You're fucked</title>
	<author>faraway</author>
	<datestamp>1266864300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><tt>It's state-by-state, check out "group of 1" coverage. This at least helps you get past the pre-existing condition clauses, and might get you a group discount.</tt></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's state-by-state , check out " group of 1 " coverage .
This at least helps you get past the pre-existing condition clauses , and might get you a group discount .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's state-by-state, check out "group of 1" coverage.
This at least helps you get past the pre-existing condition clauses, and might get you a group discount.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230606</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231332</id>
	<title>Re:Be methodical</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266862740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>He will find what he needs *if* he's in perfect health with no instances of any number of specific conditions or symptoms on his medical records which get him instantly black listed from any major insurance company. Such as: Diabetes, chest pain, cancer, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, etc...
<br> <br>
Recently I switched jobs and had a 3 month waiting period before I could get coverage with my new employer. As a 26 year old male, I attempted to get coverage for myself and my wife for the duration. We were both flat out rejected. Myself because I have acid reflex and they saw "chest pain" in my medical records, and my wife because her Triglycerides were high.
<br> <br>
The irony of the current system in the US is that as an individual, only the people who don't need coverage are those who can get it. While I'm obviously biased because of my experiences, I have come to believe that the only people who believe the US healthcare system is working are those who have never attempted to get coverage on their own.</htmltext>
<tokenext>He will find what he needs * if * he 's in perfect health with no instances of any number of specific conditions or symptoms on his medical records which get him instantly black listed from any major insurance company .
Such as : Diabetes , chest pain , cancer , high cholesterol , high blood pressure , etc.. . Recently I switched jobs and had a 3 month waiting period before I could get coverage with my new employer .
As a 26 year old male , I attempted to get coverage for myself and my wife for the duration .
We were both flat out rejected .
Myself because I have acid reflex and they saw " chest pain " in my medical records , and my wife because her Triglycerides were high .
The irony of the current system in the US is that as an individual , only the people who do n't need coverage are those who can get it .
While I 'm obviously biased because of my experiences , I have come to believe that the only people who believe the US healthcare system is working are those who have never attempted to get coverage on their own .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He will find what he needs *if* he's in perfect health with no instances of any number of specific conditions or symptoms on his medical records which get him instantly black listed from any major insurance company.
Such as: Diabetes, chest pain, cancer, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, etc...
 
Recently I switched jobs and had a 3 month waiting period before I could get coverage with my new employer.
As a 26 year old male, I attempted to get coverage for myself and my wife for the duration.
We were both flat out rejected.
Myself because I have acid reflex and they saw "chest pain" in my medical records, and my wife because her Triglycerides were high.
The irony of the current system in the US is that as an individual, only the people who don't need coverage are those who can get it.
While I'm obviously biased because of my experiences, I have come to believe that the only people who believe the US healthcare system is working are those who have never attempted to get coverage on their own.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230704</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31235132</id>
	<title>Life Insurance.</title>
	<author>DarthVain</author>
	<datestamp>1266831300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Though wholly unrelated, I had a conservative uncle tell me this past Christmas when I was home visiting my family that he "Didn't believe in Life Insurance, because he thought it should be a sad day for everybody..."</p><p>I thought it was funny.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Though wholly unrelated , I had a conservative uncle tell me this past Christmas when I was home visiting my family that he " Did n't believe in Life Insurance , because he thought it should be a sad day for everybody... " I thought it was funny .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Though wholly unrelated, I had a conservative uncle tell me this past Christmas when I was home visiting my family that he "Didn't believe in Life Insurance, because he thought it should be a sad day for everybody..."I thought it was funny.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31237248</id>
	<title>Don't be in Maine</title>
	<author>pgn674</author>
	<datestamp>1266837840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I did some quick searching a month back. In Maine, for private single person health insurance, there is very little choice, and what few choices there are, are very expensive. Also, for insurance companies that do operate in Maine, they offer limited plans.<br> <br>There is no <a href="https://www.aetna.com/iqs/aimquote.do" title="aetna.com">Aetna</a> [aetna.com], little <a href="http://www.anthem.com/wps/portal/ahpmember?content\_path=visitor/me/f2/s0/t0/pw\_ad076524.htm&amp;rootLevel=2&amp;state=me&amp;label=Individual\%20Health&amp;state=me&amp;rootLevel=0" title="anthem.com">Anthem/Blue Cross/Blue Shield</a> [anthem.com], little <a href="http://www.assuranthealth.com/corp/ah/overlay/coveragemap.html" title="assuranthealth.com">Assurant</a> [assuranthealth.com], no <a href="http://www.cigna.com/our\_plans/individual\_and\_family/for\_you.html#" title="cigna.com">Cigna</a> [cigna.com], no <a href="http://www.goldenrule.com/coverage-area-map.html" title="goldenrule.com">UnitedHealth/Golden Rule</a> [goldenrule.com], no <a href="https://www.humana-one.com/secured/contactusforotherstates.asp" title="humana-one.com">Humana</a> [humana-one.com]. A health insurance searcher doesn't work, either: no <a href="http://www.ehealthinsurance.com/" title="ehealthinsurance.com">eHealthInsurance</a> [ehealthinsurance.com].</htmltext>
<tokenext>I did some quick searching a month back .
In Maine , for private single person health insurance , there is very little choice , and what few choices there are , are very expensive .
Also , for insurance companies that do operate in Maine , they offer limited plans .
There is no Aetna [ aetna.com ] , little Anthem/Blue Cross/Blue Shield [ anthem.com ] , little Assurant [ assuranthealth.com ] , no Cigna [ cigna.com ] , no UnitedHealth/Golden Rule [ goldenrule.com ] , no Humana [ humana-one.com ] .
A health insurance searcher does n't work , either : no eHealthInsurance [ ehealthinsurance.com ] .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I did some quick searching a month back.
In Maine, for private single person health insurance, there is very little choice, and what few choices there are, are very expensive.
Also, for insurance companies that do operate in Maine, they offer limited plans.
There is no Aetna [aetna.com], little Anthem/Blue Cross/Blue Shield [anthem.com], little Assurant [assuranthealth.com], no Cigna [cigna.com], no UnitedHealth/Golden Rule [goldenrule.com], no Humana [humana-one.com].
A health insurance searcher doesn't work, either: no eHealthInsurance [ehealthinsurance.com].</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231650</id>
	<title>a few options</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266863460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I did this for awhile. You have a couple options. The first option you should look at is COBRA. It will cover you for up to 18 months with your existing employers health-plan. The downside is you will have to pay the full amount (what you were paying PLUS what your employer was paying - that came out to 300-400 dollars per month in my case). The second option, what I went with, was to go to a ehealthinsurance.com where you enter in your details and it gives you quotes from a bunch of different providers in your area. I had very good luck with that and found a provider for a good price that had low premiums and solid coverage. It was tough finding one that covered pre-existing coverage but I eventually did as long as there were no gaps in my coverage over the past 2 years.</p><p>A few other tips:<br>1) do NOT have any gaps in coverage as this may make it impossible to find a provider who covers pre-existing coverage.<br>2) quit on the first of the month because usually companies will cover you until the end of the calendar month and your application can take a couple weeks to get approved by a provider.</p><p>Good luck!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I did this for awhile .
You have a couple options .
The first option you should look at is COBRA .
It will cover you for up to 18 months with your existing employers health-plan .
The downside is you will have to pay the full amount ( what you were paying PLUS what your employer was paying - that came out to 300-400 dollars per month in my case ) .
The second option , what I went with , was to go to a ehealthinsurance.com where you enter in your details and it gives you quotes from a bunch of different providers in your area .
I had very good luck with that and found a provider for a good price that had low premiums and solid coverage .
It was tough finding one that covered pre-existing coverage but I eventually did as long as there were no gaps in my coverage over the past 2 years.A few other tips : 1 ) do NOT have any gaps in coverage as this may make it impossible to find a provider who covers pre-existing coverage.2 ) quit on the first of the month because usually companies will cover you until the end of the calendar month and your application can take a couple weeks to get approved by a provider.Good luck !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I did this for awhile.
You have a couple options.
The first option you should look at is COBRA.
It will cover you for up to 18 months with your existing employers health-plan.
The downside is you will have to pay the full amount (what you were paying PLUS what your employer was paying - that came out to 300-400 dollars per month in my case).
The second option, what I went with, was to go to a ehealthinsurance.com where you enter in your details and it gives you quotes from a bunch of different providers in your area.
I had very good luck with that and found a provider for a good price that had low premiums and solid coverage.
It was tough finding one that covered pre-existing coverage but I eventually did as long as there were no gaps in my coverage over the past 2 years.A few other tips:1) do NOT have any gaps in coverage as this may make it impossible to find a provider who covers pre-existing coverage.2) quit on the first of the month because usually companies will cover you until the end of the calendar month and your application can take a couple weeks to get approved by a provider.Good luck!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31237818</id>
	<title>Big problem that US Dems decided not to address</title>
	<author>krelldoggy</author>
	<datestamp>1266840240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Rather than reform a system that connects health insurance to employment in an age in which employment is highly fluid, our politicians decided undertake a huge power grab with little regard to quality of care or costs.</p><p>Virtually all Government-run health care systems offer poor care compared to what American are used to seeing. If the hapless Democrats manage to ram this through they will probably never recover politically. Plus the rest of the world depends on innovation from US companies, most of whom are targeted for extinction as the designated "villains" by the Government. Where will the refugees from the rest of the world's socialized medicine go?</p><p>The whole thing is a mess.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Rather than reform a system that connects health insurance to employment in an age in which employment is highly fluid , our politicians decided undertake a huge power grab with little regard to quality of care or costs.Virtually all Government-run health care systems offer poor care compared to what American are used to seeing .
If the hapless Democrats manage to ram this through they will probably never recover politically .
Plus the rest of the world depends on innovation from US companies , most of whom are targeted for extinction as the designated " villains " by the Government .
Where will the refugees from the rest of the world 's socialized medicine go ? The whole thing is a mess .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Rather than reform a system that connects health insurance to employment in an age in which employment is highly fluid, our politicians decided undertake a huge power grab with little regard to quality of care or costs.Virtually all Government-run health care systems offer poor care compared to what American are used to seeing.
If the hapless Democrats manage to ram this through they will probably never recover politically.
Plus the rest of the world depends on innovation from US companies, most of whom are targeted for extinction as the designated "villains" by the Government.
Where will the refugees from the rest of the world's socialized medicine go?The whole thing is a mess.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231412</id>
	<title>HSA - health savings account</title>
	<author>jettoblack</author>
	<datestamp>1266862920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have a individual (not group, not employer offered) HSA plan with a very low premium and a high deductible.  Every month I put some money (about the difference between this plan's premium and a average premium plan) into my HSA account.  Although the deductible is high, I save enough on the premium to basically put away twice the yearly deductible every year.  The plan gives 100\% coverage after deductible on everything covered (no coinsurance), and many things (annual checkups) are totally free even before the deductible.</p><p>In other words, in years when I have high medical expenses, my total costs work out about the same as a high premium, low deductible plan.  However, in years when my medical expenses are low, I get to KEEP the money that I would have spent on premiums.  The insurance company loves it because any expenses I incur come partially out of my savings, so there is a definite motivation for me to keep my costs as low as possible (which keeps their costs low as well, unlike other plans where there is no incentive for the insured to keep costs low).</p><p>And the best part is that everything I deposit in the HSA account is TAX DEDUCTIBLE and earns interest TAX FREE.  When I retire I can withdraw from it TAX FREE as well.  It is like the best parts of a Traditional IRA plus a Roth IRA, but I can use it to cover any health expenses I have at any time and with no penalties.</p><p>Bottom line is that I'm paying about 1/2 of what the equivalent coverage would cost from a regular plan, and in the best case I get to save a lot of money that would have been wasted on premiums and earn interest on it tax free, and in the worst case if I use up the whole deductible, I still get good coverage, lower my taxes, and earn some interest on the money.  The only time I wouldn't recommend the HSA is if you get really sick a lot and have high expenses all the time, especially prescription drugs which aren't discounted as much in this plan.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have a individual ( not group , not employer offered ) HSA plan with a very low premium and a high deductible .
Every month I put some money ( about the difference between this plan 's premium and a average premium plan ) into my HSA account .
Although the deductible is high , I save enough on the premium to basically put away twice the yearly deductible every year .
The plan gives 100 \ % coverage after deductible on everything covered ( no coinsurance ) , and many things ( annual checkups ) are totally free even before the deductible.In other words , in years when I have high medical expenses , my total costs work out about the same as a high premium , low deductible plan .
However , in years when my medical expenses are low , I get to KEEP the money that I would have spent on premiums .
The insurance company loves it because any expenses I incur come partially out of my savings , so there is a definite motivation for me to keep my costs as low as possible ( which keeps their costs low as well , unlike other plans where there is no incentive for the insured to keep costs low ) .And the best part is that everything I deposit in the HSA account is TAX DEDUCTIBLE and earns interest TAX FREE .
When I retire I can withdraw from it TAX FREE as well .
It is like the best parts of a Traditional IRA plus a Roth IRA , but I can use it to cover any health expenses I have at any time and with no penalties.Bottom line is that I 'm paying about 1/2 of what the equivalent coverage would cost from a regular plan , and in the best case I get to save a lot of money that would have been wasted on premiums and earn interest on it tax free , and in the worst case if I use up the whole deductible , I still get good coverage , lower my taxes , and earn some interest on the money .
The only time I would n't recommend the HSA is if you get really sick a lot and have high expenses all the time , especially prescription drugs which are n't discounted as much in this plan .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have a individual (not group, not employer offered) HSA plan with a very low premium and a high deductible.
Every month I put some money (about the difference between this plan's premium and a average premium plan) into my HSA account.
Although the deductible is high, I save enough on the premium to basically put away twice the yearly deductible every year.
The plan gives 100\% coverage after deductible on everything covered (no coinsurance), and many things (annual checkups) are totally free even before the deductible.In other words, in years when I have high medical expenses, my total costs work out about the same as a high premium, low deductible plan.
However, in years when my medical expenses are low, I get to KEEP the money that I would have spent on premiums.
The insurance company loves it because any expenses I incur come partially out of my savings, so there is a definite motivation for me to keep my costs as low as possible (which keeps their costs low as well, unlike other plans where there is no incentive for the insured to keep costs low).And the best part is that everything I deposit in the HSA account is TAX DEDUCTIBLE and earns interest TAX FREE.
When I retire I can withdraw from it TAX FREE as well.
It is like the best parts of a Traditional IRA plus a Roth IRA, but I can use it to cover any health expenses I have at any time and with no penalties.Bottom line is that I'm paying about 1/2 of what the equivalent coverage would cost from a regular plan, and in the best case I get to save a lot of money that would have been wasted on premiums and earn interest on it tax free, and in the worst case if I use up the whole deductible, I still get good coverage, lower my taxes, and earn some interest on the money.
The only time I wouldn't recommend the HSA is if you get really sick a lot and have high expenses all the time, especially prescription drugs which aren't discounted as much in this plan.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31234432</id>
	<title>There are options, depending on your specifics.</title>
	<author>DdJ</author>
	<datestamp>1266829200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What does "starting out on my own" mean?  Does that mean you're going to make a startup company?</p><p>If so, you may have options, depending on where you're located.  I participated in a startup company in Pittsburgh, PA, and what we did... there's an organization there called "The Pittsburgh Technology Council" that lets multiple small tech startups pool together for purposes like this.  Here's their page on health insurance:</p><p><a href="http://www.pghtech.org/why-join/member-benefits/council-employee-benefits-group.aspx" title="pghtech.org">http://www.pghtech.org/why-join/member-benefits/council-employee-benefits-group.aspx</a> [pghtech.org]</p><p>Try to find a similar organization in your own area, they may be able to help.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What does " starting out on my own " mean ?
Does that mean you 're going to make a startup company ? If so , you may have options , depending on where you 're located .
I participated in a startup company in Pittsburgh , PA , and what we did... there 's an organization there called " The Pittsburgh Technology Council " that lets multiple small tech startups pool together for purposes like this .
Here 's their page on health insurance : http : //www.pghtech.org/why-join/member-benefits/council-employee-benefits-group.aspx [ pghtech.org ] Try to find a similar organization in your own area , they may be able to help .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What does "starting out on my own" mean?
Does that mean you're going to make a startup company?If so, you may have options, depending on where you're located.
I participated in a startup company in Pittsburgh, PA, and what we did... there's an organization there called "The Pittsburgh Technology Council" that lets multiple small tech startups pool together for purposes like this.
Here's their page on health insurance:http://www.pghtech.org/why-join/member-benefits/council-employee-benefits-group.aspx [pghtech.org]Try to find a similar organization in your own area, they may be able to help.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233158</id>
	<title>Re:Just forget paying</title>
	<author>thePowerOfGrayskull</author>
	<datestamp>1266868440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This is true as long as you don't have any chronic condition that requires recurring dr visits - or worse, medication.  Even a simple prescription required monthly can eat up more than your yearly premium very quickly.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is true as long as you do n't have any chronic condition that requires recurring dr visits - or worse , medication .
Even a simple prescription required monthly can eat up more than your yearly premium very quickly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is true as long as you don't have any chronic condition that requires recurring dr visits - or worse, medication.
Even a simple prescription required monthly can eat up more than your yearly premium very quickly.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230848</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31237720</id>
	<title>Re:You're fucked</title>
	<author>damn\_registrars</author>
	<datestamp>1266839880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>What I really want is a public option</p></div><p>
That would be a reasonable solution, the kind that the rest of the developed world has come to use and expect.  Hence we cannot have it here in the US because it would somehow be "un-American".</p><p><div class="quote"><p>or at least those exchanges they're talking about</p></div><p>
That will either end up dropped from the bill (for the same reasons as above) or it will end up only helping the insurance companies to cooperatively form a giant monopoly.  In the end, if it passes, it won't help.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Oh, and get rid of the anti-trust law exemption</p></div><p>
They have already nearly buried any chance of that happening.  They have been selling it as "good for the consumer" so heavily so far that it isn't going away anytime soon.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>make the insurance companies compete across state lines.</p></div><p>
That is a questionable tactic to accomplish anything than more paperwork and further accelerate healthcare costs.  As it is, clinics have to carefully decide which plans to honor and which to reject because of the excessive paperwork and nonsense that their current plans require.  If suddenly every plan from all 50 states could potentially be coming to the window, how will an office decide which plans to deal with?  They would need more office workers than health care workers if they wanted to handle every conceivable plan; and then every potential medical decision would end up being reviewed and second-guessed just to maximize the likelihood of it being covered by the plan of any given patient.<br> <br>
Unfortunately the current health care <b>bailout</b> proposal in congress will solve pretty much none of these problems.  And anything that even in the slightest possible way resembles reform will be dead in the water.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>What I really want is a public option That would be a reasonable solution , the kind that the rest of the developed world has come to use and expect .
Hence we can not have it here in the US because it would somehow be " un-American " .or at least those exchanges they 're talking about That will either end up dropped from the bill ( for the same reasons as above ) or it will end up only helping the insurance companies to cooperatively form a giant monopoly .
In the end , if it passes , it wo n't help.Oh , and get rid of the anti-trust law exemption They have already nearly buried any chance of that happening .
They have been selling it as " good for the consumer " so heavily so far that it is n't going away anytime soon.make the insurance companies compete across state lines .
That is a questionable tactic to accomplish anything than more paperwork and further accelerate healthcare costs .
As it is , clinics have to carefully decide which plans to honor and which to reject because of the excessive paperwork and nonsense that their current plans require .
If suddenly every plan from all 50 states could potentially be coming to the window , how will an office decide which plans to deal with ?
They would need more office workers than health care workers if they wanted to handle every conceivable plan ; and then every potential medical decision would end up being reviewed and second-guessed just to maximize the likelihood of it being covered by the plan of any given patient .
Unfortunately the current health care bailout proposal in congress will solve pretty much none of these problems .
And anything that even in the slightest possible way resembles reform will be dead in the water .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What I really want is a public option
That would be a reasonable solution, the kind that the rest of the developed world has come to use and expect.
Hence we cannot have it here in the US because it would somehow be "un-American".or at least those exchanges they're talking about
That will either end up dropped from the bill (for the same reasons as above) or it will end up only helping the insurance companies to cooperatively form a giant monopoly.
In the end, if it passes, it won't help.Oh, and get rid of the anti-trust law exemption
They have already nearly buried any chance of that happening.
They have been selling it as "good for the consumer" so heavily so far that it isn't going away anytime soon.make the insurance companies compete across state lines.
That is a questionable tactic to accomplish anything than more paperwork and further accelerate healthcare costs.
As it is, clinics have to carefully decide which plans to honor and which to reject because of the excessive paperwork and nonsense that their current plans require.
If suddenly every plan from all 50 states could potentially be coming to the window, how will an office decide which plans to deal with?
They would need more office workers than health care workers if they wanted to handle every conceivable plan; and then every potential medical decision would end up being reviewed and second-guessed just to maximize the likelihood of it being covered by the plan of any given patient.
Unfortunately the current health care bailout proposal in congress will solve pretty much none of these problems.
And anything that even in the slightest possible way resembles reform will be dead in the water.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232346</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31236746</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>h4rr4r</author>
	<datestamp>1266836160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Include what your employer pays and that seems rather reasonable for one person.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Include what your employer pays and that seems rather reasonable for one person .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Include what your employer pays and that seems rather reasonable for one person.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231544</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230896</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266861660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How's that worse than not getting a MRI at all?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How 's that worse than not getting a MRI at all ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How's that worse than not getting a MRI at all?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230768</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232618</id>
	<title>individual insurance</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266866280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>It can be a big deal if you have any type of chronic medical condition (high blood pressure, diabetes, or anything else that is going to need continuing treatment).  The insurance companies are likely to decide not to offer you insurance, and, if you develop such a condition while on an individual plan, they may decide to drop you and/or charge you an extremely high premium.  I would recommend continuing your existing insurance for a year under the COBRA plan (meaning that you will be paying the full premium yourself), then find other insurance while you are still covered by COBRA.  Several years ago, I changed from a job with group insurance to one that didn't offer insurance.  I made the major mistake of letting my COBRA insurance run out before shopping for other insurance, could not find any company willing to sell me an individual policy due to having diabetes, and ended up spending four years uninsured before finding another job with group insurance.  During that four years, I ran up enough medical debt that it will likely take me the next 20 years to finish paying it off, once you add in the interest that I am being charged on the outstanding debt.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It can be a big deal if you have any type of chronic medical condition ( high blood pressure , diabetes , or anything else that is going to need continuing treatment ) .
The insurance companies are likely to decide not to offer you insurance , and , if you develop such a condition while on an individual plan , they may decide to drop you and/or charge you an extremely high premium .
I would recommend continuing your existing insurance for a year under the COBRA plan ( meaning that you will be paying the full premium yourself ) , then find other insurance while you are still covered by COBRA .
Several years ago , I changed from a job with group insurance to one that did n't offer insurance .
I made the major mistake of letting my COBRA insurance run out before shopping for other insurance , could not find any company willing to sell me an individual policy due to having diabetes , and ended up spending four years uninsured before finding another job with group insurance .
During that four years , I ran up enough medical debt that it will likely take me the next 20 years to finish paying it off , once you add in the interest that I am being charged on the outstanding debt .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It can be a big deal if you have any type of chronic medical condition (high blood pressure, diabetes, or anything else that is going to need continuing treatment).
The insurance companies are likely to decide not to offer you insurance, and, if you develop such a condition while on an individual plan, they may decide to drop you and/or charge you an extremely high premium.
I would recommend continuing your existing insurance for a year under the COBRA plan (meaning that you will be paying the full premium yourself), then find other insurance while you are still covered by COBRA.
Several years ago, I changed from a job with group insurance to one that didn't offer insurance.
I made the major mistake of letting my COBRA insurance run out before shopping for other insurance, could not find any company willing to sell me an individual policy due to having diabetes, and ended up spending four years uninsured before finding another job with group insurance.
During that four years, I ran up enough medical debt that it will likely take me the next 20 years to finish paying it off, once you add in the interest that I am being charged on the outstanding debt.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230908</id>
	<title>Remember opportunity costs!</title>
	<author>glassware</author>
	<datestamp>1266861720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Also, remember that all the time you spend researching plans, puzzling over them, applying, waiting, and receiving rejections should be counted as wasted time when you could have been doing something productive.  I've wasted hours trying to read and comprehend one of those health insurance choice packets that Blue Cross / Anthem gave me before I realized there was no way whatsoever I could pick between them in a meaningful way.  I suppose if I was already sick and I knew exactly what I would be spending, maybe I could have figured out my costs by counting doctors' visits and treatment coverage, but since I'm healthy at the moment I have no idea what disease or injury might befall me.</p><p>Maybe there's a reason to have choice in the health insurance market, but I've honestly never seen one.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Also , remember that all the time you spend researching plans , puzzling over them , applying , waiting , and receiving rejections should be counted as wasted time when you could have been doing something productive .
I 've wasted hours trying to read and comprehend one of those health insurance choice packets that Blue Cross / Anthem gave me before I realized there was no way whatsoever I could pick between them in a meaningful way .
I suppose if I was already sick and I knew exactly what I would be spending , maybe I could have figured out my costs by counting doctors ' visits and treatment coverage , but since I 'm healthy at the moment I have no idea what disease or injury might befall me.Maybe there 's a reason to have choice in the health insurance market , but I 've honestly never seen one .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Also, remember that all the time you spend researching plans, puzzling over them, applying, waiting, and receiving rejections should be counted as wasted time when you could have been doing something productive.
I've wasted hours trying to read and comprehend one of those health insurance choice packets that Blue Cross / Anthem gave me before I realized there was no way whatsoever I could pick between them in a meaningful way.
I suppose if I was already sick and I knew exactly what I would be spending, maybe I could have figured out my costs by counting doctors' visits and treatment coverage, but since I'm healthy at the moment I have no idea what disease or injury might befall me.Maybe there's a reason to have choice in the health insurance market, but I've honestly never seen one.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231496</id>
	<title>Re:I did the same for a while...</title>
	<author>FooAtWFU</author>
	<datestamp>1266863160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And you get to meet people. Sounds like a snazzy deal. For you. I wonder if the grocer feels the same way, though. If you're self-motivated enough to go independent-contractor on your IT gigs, I'll bet you're a pretty effective worker, at least. *shrug*</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And you get to meet people .
Sounds like a snazzy deal .
For you .
I wonder if the grocer feels the same way , though .
If you 're self-motivated enough to go independent-contractor on your IT gigs , I 'll bet you 're a pretty effective worker , at least .
* shrug *</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And you get to meet people.
Sounds like a snazzy deal.
For you.
I wonder if the grocer feels the same way, though.
If you're self-motivated enough to go independent-contractor on your IT gigs, I'll bet you're a pretty effective worker, at least.
*shrug*</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230652</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232812</id>
	<title>Become a student</title>
	<author>ChazW</author>
	<datestamp>1266866940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I have read that another good gimmick is to become a part time student at a local college or university, then buy the student insurance. I don't know how well it really works. And, please don't think I am saying our so-called system doesn't need fixing. This is just a gimmick that apparently has worked out for some people.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have read that another good gimmick is to become a part time student at a local college or university , then buy the student insurance .
I do n't know how well it really works .
And , please do n't think I am saying our so-called system does n't need fixing .
This is just a gimmick that apparently has worked out for some people .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have read that another good gimmick is to become a part time student at a local college or university, then buy the student insurance.
I don't know how well it really works.
And, please don't think I am saying our so-called system doesn't need fixing.
This is just a gimmick that apparently has worked out for some people.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31234836</id>
	<title>Re:Move where?</title>
	<author>ebuck</author>
	<datestamp>1266830400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>While it sounds tempting, most of those with successful businesses have many reasons they can't easily relocate, like their business.</htmltext>
<tokenext>While it sounds tempting , most of those with successful businesses have many reasons they ca n't easily relocate , like their business .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While it sounds tempting, most of those with successful businesses have many reasons they can't easily relocate, like their business.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231130</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231110</id>
	<title>Re:Be methodical</title>
	<author>guyfawkes-11-5</author>
	<datestamp>1266862260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Just like when planning for a very large purchase, be thorough and methodical in researching your options. Firstly, dismiss the plans that do not offer sufficient coverage. Secondly, dismiss plans that have yearly or total lifetime limits that are too low. Thirdly, read reviews, opinions, and small print on whatever plans are left. Finally, pick whichever fits your budget, preferably from a company whose last quarterly statement is not deep in the red, since the latter is sure to raise rates or compromise coverage.</p><p>Finally, remember that long-term disability is an absolute necessity in addition to life insurance (and possibly even more important). Make sure it's a policy with a completely different company.</p><p>If you go about it in a cool, organized manner, you will find the coverage you need... but don't be alarmed when you have to pay at least $15'000/year for it.</p></div><p>His coverage will easily be more than 15k/yr.  Basic coverage through a large group (employer) costs in the range of $1,300/mo at group rates.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Just like when planning for a very large purchase , be thorough and methodical in researching your options .
Firstly , dismiss the plans that do not offer sufficient coverage .
Secondly , dismiss plans that have yearly or total lifetime limits that are too low .
Thirdly , read reviews , opinions , and small print on whatever plans are left .
Finally , pick whichever fits your budget , preferably from a company whose last quarterly statement is not deep in the red , since the latter is sure to raise rates or compromise coverage.Finally , remember that long-term disability is an absolute necessity in addition to life insurance ( and possibly even more important ) .
Make sure it 's a policy with a completely different company.If you go about it in a cool , organized manner , you will find the coverage you need... but do n't be alarmed when you have to pay at least $ 15'000/year for it.His coverage will easily be more than 15k/yr .
Basic coverage through a large group ( employer ) costs in the range of $ 1,300/mo at group rates .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just like when planning for a very large purchase, be thorough and methodical in researching your options.
Firstly, dismiss the plans that do not offer sufficient coverage.
Secondly, dismiss plans that have yearly or total lifetime limits that are too low.
Thirdly, read reviews, opinions, and small print on whatever plans are left.
Finally, pick whichever fits your budget, preferably from a company whose last quarterly statement is not deep in the red, since the latter is sure to raise rates or compromise coverage.Finally, remember that long-term disability is an absolute necessity in addition to life insurance (and possibly even more important).
Make sure it's a policy with a completely different company.If you go about it in a cool, organized manner, you will find the coverage you need... but don't be alarmed when you have to pay at least $15'000/year for it.His coverage will easily be more than 15k/yr.
Basic coverage through a large group (employer) costs in the range of $1,300/mo at group rates.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230704</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31236534</id>
	<title>Re:doesn't that make you boiling mad?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266835620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Socialized medicine is NOT the answer....My sister-in-law on Medicaid goes in for every test in the book. Why not? She doesn't have to pay. This thinking/utilization will make a US national government system completely more unsustainable than Medicare is even now....and lead to rationing/longer waits etc. I have to pay a co-pay for every service I receive, so I'm very careful about what health care services I consume. Ideally, if I could compare the rate of a service from this doctor's office to that one or from hospital to hospital in the area, I would even be able to more carefully select who receives my healthcare dollar. I choose vets for my animals based on who offers the best and highest quality services for the lowest rates, but it's completely ridiculous that I can't choose my own care that way because doctors and hospitals are purposely opaque when it comes to quality and pricing. I also find it ludicrous that I have significantly better service and professionalism from the vet clinics that I've used than for the doctors I've used and that's after I was able to review physician disciplinary records to weed out the worst of the bunch.</p><p>My aunt consulted on the healthcare system in France, but much of what works there will not work here because of the practises of defensive medicine and payment by each and every service. The insurance company that my aunt headed was the only one that could make a profit from the Medicaid community because it rewarded individual member physicians (with a cut of the profits) for low ER utilization, preventative healthcare and strictly limited abusive billing practises (lab handling fees for in-house labs, 45 min. office visit billed for 15 min. appts., etc). The quality of care provided was higher because patients established relationships with individual physicians and chronic conditions were treated and monitored appropriately rather than being dealt with pell-mell in the ER as a crisis arose. Patients were allowed to choose their own physician from 2000+ of the 4000-5000 in the area and could change at will, so they were happier. Most importantly, the profit-sharing for member physicians gave a higher percentage to primary care doctors than specialists to encourage better coordination of care, as well as higher reimbursement rates for preventative healthcare visits, rather than sick-care visits.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Socialized medicine is NOT the answer....My sister-in-law on Medicaid goes in for every test in the book .
Why not ?
She does n't have to pay .
This thinking/utilization will make a US national government system completely more unsustainable than Medicare is even now....and lead to rationing/longer waits etc .
I have to pay a co-pay for every service I receive , so I 'm very careful about what health care services I consume .
Ideally , if I could compare the rate of a service from this doctor 's office to that one or from hospital to hospital in the area , I would even be able to more carefully select who receives my healthcare dollar .
I choose vets for my animals based on who offers the best and highest quality services for the lowest rates , but it 's completely ridiculous that I ca n't choose my own care that way because doctors and hospitals are purposely opaque when it comes to quality and pricing .
I also find it ludicrous that I have significantly better service and professionalism from the vet clinics that I 've used than for the doctors I 've used and that 's after I was able to review physician disciplinary records to weed out the worst of the bunch.My aunt consulted on the healthcare system in France , but much of what works there will not work here because of the practises of defensive medicine and payment by each and every service .
The insurance company that my aunt headed was the only one that could make a profit from the Medicaid community because it rewarded individual member physicians ( with a cut of the profits ) for low ER utilization , preventative healthcare and strictly limited abusive billing practises ( lab handling fees for in-house labs , 45 min .
office visit billed for 15 min .
appts. , etc ) .
The quality of care provided was higher because patients established relationships with individual physicians and chronic conditions were treated and monitored appropriately rather than being dealt with pell-mell in the ER as a crisis arose .
Patients were allowed to choose their own physician from 2000 + of the 4000-5000 in the area and could change at will , so they were happier .
Most importantly , the profit-sharing for member physicians gave a higher percentage to primary care doctors than specialists to encourage better coordination of care , as well as higher reimbursement rates for preventative healthcare visits , rather than sick-care visits .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Socialized medicine is NOT the answer....My sister-in-law on Medicaid goes in for every test in the book.
Why not?
She doesn't have to pay.
This thinking/utilization will make a US national government system completely more unsustainable than Medicare is even now....and lead to rationing/longer waits etc.
I have to pay a co-pay for every service I receive, so I'm very careful about what health care services I consume.
Ideally, if I could compare the rate of a service from this doctor's office to that one or from hospital to hospital in the area, I would even be able to more carefully select who receives my healthcare dollar.
I choose vets for my animals based on who offers the best and highest quality services for the lowest rates, but it's completely ridiculous that I can't choose my own care that way because doctors and hospitals are purposely opaque when it comes to quality and pricing.
I also find it ludicrous that I have significantly better service and professionalism from the vet clinics that I've used than for the doctors I've used and that's after I was able to review physician disciplinary records to weed out the worst of the bunch.My aunt consulted on the healthcare system in France, but much of what works there will not work here because of the practises of defensive medicine and payment by each and every service.
The insurance company that my aunt headed was the only one that could make a profit from the Medicaid community because it rewarded individual member physicians (with a cut of the profits) for low ER utilization, preventative healthcare and strictly limited abusive billing practises (lab handling fees for in-house labs, 45 min.
office visit billed for 15 min.
appts., etc).
The quality of care provided was higher because patients established relationships with individual physicians and chronic conditions were treated and monitored appropriately rather than being dealt with pell-mell in the ER as a crisis arose.
Patients were allowed to choose their own physician from 2000+ of the 4000-5000 in the area and could change at will, so they were happier.
Most importantly, the profit-sharing for member physicians gave a higher percentage to primary care doctors than specialists to encourage better coordination of care, as well as higher reimbursement rates for preventative healthcare visits, rather than sick-care visits.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230810</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31235584</id>
	<title>Affordable group health insurance</title>
	<author>Relayman</author>
	<datestamp>1266832680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Many years ago (1993), I was faced with this issue. I joined the CincinnatiUSA Regional Chamber (of Commerce) which had a group plan for members. My insurance premiums were 60\% of what my previous employer paid and I got better coverage. The annual dues for the Chamber were less than two months' insurance premiums. With no pre-existing conditions, my family was accepted without any problems. However, since then they require that companies have two or more employees to participate so that may no longer be an option.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Many years ago ( 1993 ) , I was faced with this issue .
I joined the CincinnatiUSA Regional Chamber ( of Commerce ) which had a group plan for members .
My insurance premiums were 60 \ % of what my previous employer paid and I got better coverage .
The annual dues for the Chamber were less than two months ' insurance premiums .
With no pre-existing conditions , my family was accepted without any problems .
However , since then they require that companies have two or more employees to participate so that may no longer be an option .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Many years ago (1993), I was faced with this issue.
I joined the CincinnatiUSA Regional Chamber (of Commerce) which had a group plan for members.
My insurance premiums were 60\% of what my previous employer paid and I got better coverage.
The annual dues for the Chamber were less than two months' insurance premiums.
With no pre-existing conditions, my family was accepted without any problems.
However, since then they require that companies have two or more employees to participate so that may no longer be an option.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230776</id>
	<title>Tax deduction</title>
	<author>wcrowe</author>
	<datestamp>1266861360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Talk to a CPA. If you're working for yourself, your health insurance expenses (even those for your family) can be deducted from your taxes.  This does ease the burden a bit.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Talk to a CPA .
If you 're working for yourself , your health insurance expenses ( even those for your family ) can be deducted from your taxes .
This does ease the burden a bit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Talk to a CPA.
If you're working for yourself, your health insurance expenses (even those for your family) can be deducted from your taxes.
This does ease the burden a bit.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31266098</id>
	<title>Can you say sticker shock</title>
	<author>niftymitch</author>
	<datestamp>1265111940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It is possible... and will take some shopping.  Some professional organizations and alumnae organizations can help too.
<p>
Prepare for sticker shock.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is possible... and will take some shopping .
Some professional organizations and alumnae organizations can help too .
Prepare for sticker shock .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is possible... and will take some shopping.
Some professional organizations and alumnae organizations can help too.
Prepare for sticker shock.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31234716</id>
	<title>Re:I did the same for a while...</title>
	<author>cwgmpls</author>
	<datestamp>1266829980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>That'll work until Target or Walmart open a grocery store down the street.  Neither of them are union, and when they open shop your local grocer will stop hiring in a desperate attempt to stay in business.  What we need is a healthcare system that doesn't punish companies when their employees receive health benefits.</htmltext>
<tokenext>That 'll work until Target or Walmart open a grocery store down the street .
Neither of them are union , and when they open shop your local grocer will stop hiring in a desperate attempt to stay in business .
What we need is a healthcare system that does n't punish companies when their employees receive health benefits .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That'll work until Target or Walmart open a grocery store down the street.
Neither of them are union, and when they open shop your local grocer will stop hiring in a desperate attempt to stay in business.
What we need is a healthcare system that doesn't punish companies when their employees receive health benefits.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230652</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230668</id>
	<title>Check with your local Chamber of Commerce</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266861000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When I was self-employed, I was able to get cheaper insurance through my local Chamber of Commerce.  I had to join (and pay the membership fee), and it was still expensive, but nowhere near as bad as if I'd done it all by myself.  And don't just limit it to your own town - a lot of them don't care where you live/work as long as you're close enough to be in the same general area<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When I was self-employed , I was able to get cheaper insurance through my local Chamber of Commerce .
I had to join ( and pay the membership fee ) , and it was still expensive , but nowhere near as bad as if I 'd done it all by myself .
And do n't just limit it to your own town - a lot of them do n't care where you live/work as long as you 're close enough to be in the same general area : )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I was self-employed, I was able to get cheaper insurance through my local Chamber of Commerce.
I had to join (and pay the membership fee), and it was still expensive, but nowhere near as bad as if I'd done it all by myself.
And don't just limit it to your own town - a lot of them don't care where you live/work as long as you're close enough to be in the same general area :)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31234664</id>
	<title>No problem.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266829860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just call up your local insurance guy and he'll hook you up.  Individual health insurance is really quite cheap.  Oh wait, you said you're married.  Uh, yeah, you're out of luck then...  Insurance here the USA actually IS dirt cheap for single males (I've gone on and off my own health insurance several times whilst moving among jobs).  However, it's expensive for females and absolutely outrageous for families.  Having kids makes getting insurance almost impossible unless you're independently wealthy (and don't need insurance).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just call up your local insurance guy and he 'll hook you up .
Individual health insurance is really quite cheap .
Oh wait , you said you 're married .
Uh , yeah , you 're out of luck then... Insurance here the USA actually IS dirt cheap for single males ( I 've gone on and off my own health insurance several times whilst moving among jobs ) .
However , it 's expensive for females and absolutely outrageous for families .
Having kids makes getting insurance almost impossible unless you 're independently wealthy ( and do n't need insurance ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just call up your local insurance guy and he'll hook you up.
Individual health insurance is really quite cheap.
Oh wait, you said you're married.
Uh, yeah, you're out of luck then...  Insurance here the USA actually IS dirt cheap for single males (I've gone on and off my own health insurance several times whilst moving among jobs).
However, it's expensive for females and absolutely outrageous for families.
Having kids makes getting insurance almost impossible unless you're independently wealthy (and don't need insurance).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233468</id>
	<title>Re:Just forget paying</title>
	<author>theghost</author>
	<datestamp>1266869400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That works fine if you and everyone in your family are average healthy people and you can guarantee you'll all stay that way.</p><p>Which brings us back to:<br>1: Don't get sick.<br>2: If you do get sick, die quickly.</p><p>Anything else and your family will go bankrupt.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That works fine if you and everyone in your family are average healthy people and you can guarantee you 'll all stay that way.Which brings us back to : 1 : Do n't get sick.2 : If you do get sick , die quickly.Anything else and your family will go bankrupt .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That works fine if you and everyone in your family are average healthy people and you can guarantee you'll all stay that way.Which brings us back to:1: Don't get sick.2: If you do get sick, die quickly.Anything else and your family will go bankrupt.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230848</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231488</id>
	<title>There are a few options</title>
	<author>Nelson</author>
	<datestamp>1266863100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are companies that specialize in grouping together small companies and independents to qualify for group rates.   Trinet is an example of a company that specializes in doing that for startups,  there are other coops and probably some different local options.   In the corporate world you're probably used to paying a fairly small chunk and your employer actually pays the majority of it,  when you're on your own you get to pay it all so it's more.  It can be afforded though, it's a matter of priorities.   We're talking about downgrading the next car you buy kind of a price you might be looking at a Lexus for $40k or something but the insurance costs might drive you down to like a $25k Toyota or Honda,  it's that kind of monthly payment.</p><p>Another option,  and it really depends on what you mean when you say "health insurance" I think the majority of folks just want to go to the doctor whenever they want and not have to pay a lot.  Things like checkups and annual exams are the sorts of things that don't really fall under insurance in the classical sense.  So what you do is approach BlueCross/BlueShield or some other insurance company and you get quotes for catastrophic coverage with like a $5000 deductible.   I've seen this cost families of 4 under $200 a month.   So this won't cover checkups,  it won't cover child birth, it won't cover the flu and it probably won't cover most simple broken bones like children may get from time to time.  What it does cover is a big expense and you'll have to adjust the deductible to something you can deal with: $2000, $5000, maybe $10000, if those are just way out of line for you then maybe this isn't for you.    Essentially, you're responsible for health maintenance.   Doctor's visits will probably cost like $100 and you'll pay the sticker price for medicine but a lot of doctors are pretty cool about that and then some companies like Walmart (go figure) are very aggressively trying to drive the costs of medicines down and encouraging the use of generics and such and a large scale.  You pay for what you need,  if you're a tightass or really strapped for cash,  you can cut annual visits out and only go when you're really sick,  but that's not a good thing to do.  If you have a really healthy lifestyle though, it might be a cost effective way to go, you're worried about your kids falling of their bikes or your wife getting in a car accident and you can buy coverage for that type of stuff.</p><p>The bigger problem here is that the business model for American insurance companies is pretty broken and they've confused the consumers to the degree that they've pitted them against each other.  The healthier/younger folks want doctors visits and medicine for no more than $30 a shot.   The middle aged folks want every option in the world when a health issue materializes, regardless of costs and so the insurance companies in the middle of that.  It's health maintenance vs. insurance and they play together, the more you maintain your health, generally the less you will need actual insurance.    Now the insurance companies are run by legitimate cock suckers,  there are some rules about who they can deny and why but as an independent you're on the short end of the stick more often.   If you or your wife could return to corporate work pretty easily, that's an option to get coverage again.   If you're not careful you go with some low cost catastrophic coverage,  one of you children get a cancer or something that's kind of in the grey area between coverage and non-coverage and then they black ball you when you try to upgrade to a more comprehensive plan;  at that point you're on the hook for thousands of dollars in treatment (or accept death, I guess) and they won't help you.</p><p>Another option is your wife could get a part time job somewhere and work enough to buy insurance for the family.  Or depending upon the ages of your kids,  colleges and universities often have plans that they can buy in to.</p><p>Like I mentioned above,  there companies that specialize in forming coops to get group rate</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are companies that specialize in grouping together small companies and independents to qualify for group rates .
Trinet is an example of a company that specializes in doing that for startups , there are other coops and probably some different local options .
In the corporate world you 're probably used to paying a fairly small chunk and your employer actually pays the majority of it , when you 're on your own you get to pay it all so it 's more .
It can be afforded though , it 's a matter of priorities .
We 're talking about downgrading the next car you buy kind of a price you might be looking at a Lexus for $ 40k or something but the insurance costs might drive you down to like a $ 25k Toyota or Honda , it 's that kind of monthly payment.Another option , and it really depends on what you mean when you say " health insurance " I think the majority of folks just want to go to the doctor whenever they want and not have to pay a lot .
Things like checkups and annual exams are the sorts of things that do n't really fall under insurance in the classical sense .
So what you do is approach BlueCross/BlueShield or some other insurance company and you get quotes for catastrophic coverage with like a $ 5000 deductible .
I 've seen this cost families of 4 under $ 200 a month .
So this wo n't cover checkups , it wo n't cover child birth , it wo n't cover the flu and it probably wo n't cover most simple broken bones like children may get from time to time .
What it does cover is a big expense and you 'll have to adjust the deductible to something you can deal with : $ 2000 , $ 5000 , maybe $ 10000 , if those are just way out of line for you then maybe this is n't for you .
Essentially , you 're responsible for health maintenance .
Doctor 's visits will probably cost like $ 100 and you 'll pay the sticker price for medicine but a lot of doctors are pretty cool about that and then some companies like Walmart ( go figure ) are very aggressively trying to drive the costs of medicines down and encouraging the use of generics and such and a large scale .
You pay for what you need , if you 're a tightass or really strapped for cash , you can cut annual visits out and only go when you 're really sick , but that 's not a good thing to do .
If you have a really healthy lifestyle though , it might be a cost effective way to go , you 're worried about your kids falling of their bikes or your wife getting in a car accident and you can buy coverage for that type of stuff.The bigger problem here is that the business model for American insurance companies is pretty broken and they 've confused the consumers to the degree that they 've pitted them against each other .
The healthier/younger folks want doctors visits and medicine for no more than $ 30 a shot .
The middle aged folks want every option in the world when a health issue materializes , regardless of costs and so the insurance companies in the middle of that .
It 's health maintenance vs. insurance and they play together , the more you maintain your health , generally the less you will need actual insurance .
Now the insurance companies are run by legitimate cock suckers , there are some rules about who they can deny and why but as an independent you 're on the short end of the stick more often .
If you or your wife could return to corporate work pretty easily , that 's an option to get coverage again .
If you 're not careful you go with some low cost catastrophic coverage , one of you children get a cancer or something that 's kind of in the grey area between coverage and non-coverage and then they black ball you when you try to upgrade to a more comprehensive plan ; at that point you 're on the hook for thousands of dollars in treatment ( or accept death , I guess ) and they wo n't help you.Another option is your wife could get a part time job somewhere and work enough to buy insurance for the family .
Or depending upon the ages of your kids , colleges and universities often have plans that they can buy in to.Like I mentioned above , there companies that specialize in forming coops to get group rate</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are companies that specialize in grouping together small companies and independents to qualify for group rates.
Trinet is an example of a company that specializes in doing that for startups,  there are other coops and probably some different local options.
In the corporate world you're probably used to paying a fairly small chunk and your employer actually pays the majority of it,  when you're on your own you get to pay it all so it's more.
It can be afforded though, it's a matter of priorities.
We're talking about downgrading the next car you buy kind of a price you might be looking at a Lexus for $40k or something but the insurance costs might drive you down to like a $25k Toyota or Honda,  it's that kind of monthly payment.Another option,  and it really depends on what you mean when you say "health insurance" I think the majority of folks just want to go to the doctor whenever they want and not have to pay a lot.
Things like checkups and annual exams are the sorts of things that don't really fall under insurance in the classical sense.
So what you do is approach BlueCross/BlueShield or some other insurance company and you get quotes for catastrophic coverage with like a $5000 deductible.
I've seen this cost families of 4 under $200 a month.
So this won't cover checkups,  it won't cover child birth, it won't cover the flu and it probably won't cover most simple broken bones like children may get from time to time.
What it does cover is a big expense and you'll have to adjust the deductible to something you can deal with: $2000, $5000, maybe $10000, if those are just way out of line for you then maybe this isn't for you.
Essentially, you're responsible for health maintenance.
Doctor's visits will probably cost like $100 and you'll pay the sticker price for medicine but a lot of doctors are pretty cool about that and then some companies like Walmart (go figure) are very aggressively trying to drive the costs of medicines down and encouraging the use of generics and such and a large scale.
You pay for what you need,  if you're a tightass or really strapped for cash,  you can cut annual visits out and only go when you're really sick,  but that's not a good thing to do.
If you have a really healthy lifestyle though, it might be a cost effective way to go, you're worried about your kids falling of their bikes or your wife getting in a car accident and you can buy coverage for that type of stuff.The bigger problem here is that the business model for American insurance companies is pretty broken and they've confused the consumers to the degree that they've pitted them against each other.
The healthier/younger folks want doctors visits and medicine for no more than $30 a shot.
The middle aged folks want every option in the world when a health issue materializes, regardless of costs and so the insurance companies in the middle of that.
It's health maintenance vs. insurance and they play together, the more you maintain your health, generally the less you will need actual insurance.
Now the insurance companies are run by legitimate cock suckers,  there are some rules about who they can deny and why but as an independent you're on the short end of the stick more often.
If you or your wife could return to corporate work pretty easily, that's an option to get coverage again.
If you're not careful you go with some low cost catastrophic coverage,  one of you children get a cancer or something that's kind of in the grey area between coverage and non-coverage and then they black ball you when you try to upgrade to a more comprehensive plan;  at that point you're on the hook for thousands of dollars in treatment (or accept death, I guess) and they won't help you.Another option is your wife could get a part time job somewhere and work enough to buy insurance for the family.
Or depending upon the ages of your kids,  colleges and universities often have plans that they can buy in to.Like I mentioned above,  there companies that specialize in forming coops to get group rate</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31234852</id>
	<title>get COBRA coverage if you can</title>
	<author>ridgecritter</author>
	<datestamp>1266830460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>because this will allow you to transition in most cases to ongoing individual policy coverage after the COBRA coverage period expires.  Otherwise you will be looking for individual policy coverage as a buyer without existing coverage.  Insurance providers regard gaps in coverage as one more way to deny your application.  Regardless, be prepared for incredibly high prices, relatively poor coverage, and no protection whatever against the pre-existing condition issue.</htmltext>
<tokenext>because this will allow you to transition in most cases to ongoing individual policy coverage after the COBRA coverage period expires .
Otherwise you will be looking for individual policy coverage as a buyer without existing coverage .
Insurance providers regard gaps in coverage as one more way to deny your application .
Regardless , be prepared for incredibly high prices , relatively poor coverage , and no protection whatever against the pre-existing condition issue .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>because this will allow you to transition in most cases to ongoing individual policy coverage after the COBRA coverage period expires.
Otherwise you will be looking for individual policy coverage as a buyer without existing coverage.
Insurance providers regard gaps in coverage as one more way to deny your application.
Regardless, be prepared for incredibly high prices, relatively poor coverage, and no protection whatever against the pre-existing condition issue.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230998</id>
	<title>Healthcare Business Model, and its politics</title>
	<author>forrie</author>
	<datestamp>1266861960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The business model of the healthcare industry can explain why it's difficult for individuals to obtain policies.</p><p>Note, this is not flame bait, just what I understand about the facts.  The healthcare industries are in biz to make money - your claims are their losses, so if you rely on a plan that is subsidized wholly by the healthcare company, you're more likely to have troubles than, for example, a policy under an plan in which the company is "self insured" -- self insured means that the individual company has a pool of funds that pays claims and the healthcare company (ie: Blue Cross) is the "servicer" on their behalf.   Under that scenario, and in my own personal experience, you are less likely to have troubles.</p><p>60 Minutes recently did an interesting segment on this, which included former employees ("Doctors") of large healthcare companies who came forward about some of the internal politics of this - and the horrors of the policies that favor denied claims, etc.</p><p>Notwithstanding other really good advice and info here, of course.</p><p>Also, if you'd like to see another viewpoint and comparison of the healthcare industries of the world, see Michael Moore's "SiCKO" -- tho there is obviously a bias there, I found it quite interesting.</p><p>This is partly why this so-called "public option" has people up in arms.  It's (mostly) about the money<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p><p>I think that's great that you're looking to get out on your own; I wish you the best of luck.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The business model of the healthcare industry can explain why it 's difficult for individuals to obtain policies.Note , this is not flame bait , just what I understand about the facts .
The healthcare industries are in biz to make money - your claims are their losses , so if you rely on a plan that is subsidized wholly by the healthcare company , you 're more likely to have troubles than , for example , a policy under an plan in which the company is " self insured " -- self insured means that the individual company has a pool of funds that pays claims and the healthcare company ( ie : Blue Cross ) is the " servicer " on their behalf .
Under that scenario , and in my own personal experience , you are less likely to have troubles.60 Minutes recently did an interesting segment on this , which included former employees ( " Doctors " ) of large healthcare companies who came forward about some of the internal politics of this - and the horrors of the policies that favor denied claims , etc.Notwithstanding other really good advice and info here , of course.Also , if you 'd like to see another viewpoint and comparison of the healthcare industries of the world , see Michael Moore 's " SiCKO " -- tho there is obviously a bias there , I found it quite interesting.This is partly why this so-called " public option " has people up in arms .
It 's ( mostly ) about the money : - ) I think that 's great that you 're looking to get out on your own ; I wish you the best of luck .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The business model of the healthcare industry can explain why it's difficult for individuals to obtain policies.Note, this is not flame bait, just what I understand about the facts.
The healthcare industries are in biz to make money - your claims are their losses, so if you rely on a plan that is subsidized wholly by the healthcare company, you're more likely to have troubles than, for example, a policy under an plan in which the company is "self insured" -- self insured means that the individual company has a pool of funds that pays claims and the healthcare company (ie: Blue Cross) is the "servicer" on their behalf.
Under that scenario, and in my own personal experience, you are less likely to have troubles.60 Minutes recently did an interesting segment on this, which included former employees ("Doctors") of large healthcare companies who came forward about some of the internal politics of this - and the horrors of the policies that favor denied claims, etc.Notwithstanding other really good advice and info here, of course.Also, if you'd like to see another viewpoint and comparison of the healthcare industries of the world, see Michael Moore's "SiCKO" -- tho there is obviously a bias there, I found it quite interesting.This is partly why this so-called "public option" has people up in arms.
It's (mostly) about the money :-)I think that's great that you're looking to get out on your own; I wish you the best of luck.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230600</id>
	<title>LLC</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266860820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've been told that forming a single-member LLC can lead to qualifying for group insurance and will prevent denial for 'pre-existing conditions', but i can't vouch for it.  more research is warranted.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've been told that forming a single-member LLC can lead to qualifying for group insurance and will prevent denial for 'pre-existing conditions ' , but i ca n't vouch for it .
more research is warranted .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've been told that forming a single-member LLC can lead to qualifying for group insurance and will prevent denial for 'pre-existing conditions', but i can't vouch for it.
more research is warranted.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31286216</id>
	<title>Join the National Guard</title>
	<author>kentavos</author>
	<datestamp>1267205220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Since everyone is giving unrealistic options (i.e. move to the UK), I'll throw out, join the National Guard.  You'll have the option to pay for Tricare, the military insurance program.  It's cheaper than individual insurance and provides really good coverage.  Plus you'll be serving your country and could learn some interesting skills, receive a bonus, etc.  The downside is you'll be deployed at some point for a year.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Since everyone is giving unrealistic options ( i.e .
move to the UK ) , I 'll throw out , join the National Guard .
You 'll have the option to pay for Tricare , the military insurance program .
It 's cheaper than individual insurance and provides really good coverage .
Plus you 'll be serving your country and could learn some interesting skills , receive a bonus , etc .
The downside is you 'll be deployed at some point for a year .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Since everyone is giving unrealistic options (i.e.
move to the UK), I'll throw out, join the National Guard.
You'll have the option to pay for Tricare, the military insurance program.
It's cheaper than individual insurance and provides really good coverage.
Plus you'll be serving your country and could learn some interesting skills, receive a bonus, etc.
The downside is you'll be deployed at some point for a year.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230768</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266861360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Redundant</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext> And wait 6 months for an MRI.</htmltext>
<tokenext>And wait 6 months for an MRI .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> And wait 6 months for an MRI.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230608</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230792</id>
	<title>Don't do it</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266861420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'd recommend you don't do it.  If you do, make sure you build an appropriate amount into the costs of your new endeavor (price your product accordingly).</p><p>I did exactly what you describe in 1999 and have not had health insurance to this day.  You can plan on spending upwards of $1,000 per month for family coverage.  At the first sign of a health problem, expect the rates to skyrocket.  After an ER visit, expect the rates to go up the exact amount that it would take to pay those health bills over five years.  The insurer has no "group" to spread their increased costs over, and will make damn sure they aren't the ones in the negative on the deal.</p><p>The only positive is that I have successfully negotiated huge discounts off large bills, like 70\% off a major surgery, by paying cash in advance.  In the end I've spent far less on my family's medical bills than we'd have paid in insurance premiums, not counting the out-of-pocket costs on top of those premiums.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd recommend you do n't do it .
If you do , make sure you build an appropriate amount into the costs of your new endeavor ( price your product accordingly ) .I did exactly what you describe in 1999 and have not had health insurance to this day .
You can plan on spending upwards of $ 1,000 per month for family coverage .
At the first sign of a health problem , expect the rates to skyrocket .
After an ER visit , expect the rates to go up the exact amount that it would take to pay those health bills over five years .
The insurer has no " group " to spread their increased costs over , and will make damn sure they are n't the ones in the negative on the deal.The only positive is that I have successfully negotiated huge discounts off large bills , like 70 \ % off a major surgery , by paying cash in advance .
In the end I 've spent far less on my family 's medical bills than we 'd have paid in insurance premiums , not counting the out-of-pocket costs on top of those premiums .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd recommend you don't do it.
If you do, make sure you build an appropriate amount into the costs of your new endeavor (price your product accordingly).I did exactly what you describe in 1999 and have not had health insurance to this day.
You can plan on spending upwards of $1,000 per month for family coverage.
At the first sign of a health problem, expect the rates to skyrocket.
After an ER visit, expect the rates to go up the exact amount that it would take to pay those health bills over five years.
The insurer has no "group" to spread their increased costs over, and will make damn sure they aren't the ones in the negative on the deal.The only positive is that I have successfully negotiated huge discounts off large bills, like 70\% off a major surgery, by paying cash in advance.
In the end I've spent far less on my family's medical bills than we'd have paid in insurance premiums, not counting the out-of-pocket costs on top of those premiums.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233426</id>
	<title>Re:Move where?</title>
	<author>gestalt\_n\_pepper</author>
	<datestamp>1266869280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would *love* to move to Canada, but it's not like I can take a plane, get an apartment, fill out a form and become a citizen. Not to mention the fact that finding a job, even in Canada, is a bit iffy at the moment.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would * love * to move to Canada , but it 's not like I can take a plane , get an apartment , fill out a form and become a citizen .
Not to mention the fact that finding a job , even in Canada , is a bit iffy at the moment .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would *love* to move to Canada, but it's not like I can take a plane, get an apartment, fill out a form and become a citizen.
Not to mention the fact that finding a job, even in Canada, is a bit iffy at the moment.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231130</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232348</id>
	<title>I transferred my corporate insurance to personal</title>
	<author>codeguy007</author>
	<datestamp>1266865500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't know if this is an option for you but I was able to transfer my company plan to a personal one. The policy isn't as good as the corporate one but it's not bad. So I would check with your insurance company.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't know if this is an option for you but I was able to transfer my company plan to a personal one .
The policy is n't as good as the corporate one but it 's not bad .
So I would check with your insurance company .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't know if this is an option for you but I was able to transfer my company plan to a personal one.
The policy isn't as good as the corporate one but it's not bad.
So I would check with your insurance company.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231092</id>
	<title>Create a group plan</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266862200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Your best bet is to create a "group" insurance plan with your new venture and will have similar benefits to the kind of large "group" plans have with your current employer.  You can create a group plan with just 2 people (You and your wife).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Your best bet is to create a " group " insurance plan with your new venture and will have similar benefits to the kind of large " group " plans have with your current employer .
You can create a group plan with just 2 people ( You and your wife ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Your best bet is to create a "group" insurance plan with your new venture and will have similar benefits to the kind of large "group" plans have with your current employer.
You can create a group plan with just 2 people (You and your wife).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233822</id>
	<title>Re:I did the same for a while...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266870720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So you are the guy who doesn't want to pay my medical bills!<br>Fine. I hereby forbid you to walk or drive on any public roads since I've paid for them. That will teach you!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So you are the guy who does n't want to pay my medical bills ! Fine .
I hereby forbid you to walk or drive on any public roads since I 've paid for them .
That will teach you !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So you are the guy who doesn't want to pay my medical bills!Fine.
I hereby forbid you to walk or drive on any public roads since I've paid for them.
That will teach you!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231522</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232676</id>
	<title>Re:So sad....</title>
	<author>macintard</author>
	<datestamp>1266866520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>You're certainly correct.  Thanks for posting another uniformed comment.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're certainly correct .
Thanks for posting another uniformed comment .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're certainly correct.
Thanks for posting another uniformed comment.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231636</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232546</id>
	<title>To answer your question...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266866100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>"how the hell did we arrive at this retarded status quo and why the hell do teabaggers and republicans oppose simple common sense reform of a horrible stituation?"</i></p><p>1. Excessive pork: Cornhusker medicare, the "Louisiana Purchase", etc.<br>2. Insurance "mandatory purchase" likely to hit middle class.  The same people lack coverage now will be forced to buy what they already know they can't afford.<br>3. Federally-subsidized abortion funding.  Some are 100\% in favor, some are 100\% opposed. It's a polarizing issue, no doubt.<br>4. Taxation on "Cadillac" health plans; looks like a "redistribution of wealth" scheme directed largely at the middle class.<br>5. Special union exemptions from the "Cadillac tax".  What happens when an employer has both union and non-union employees and offers the same plan to both?  Oops.<br>6. No significant relief from the downside of relying on employer-sponsored insurance.  Most of the population gains nothing under the House or Senate bills.<br>7. No increased competition for the healthcare industry, the insurers, the lawyers, etc. This means no price breaks will be coming anytime soon.<br>8. No public option.  Combine this with #7 above, and we have a plan that offers less than nothing, at excessive cost.</p><p>The Democrats placed themselves in the position.  Most of the time, compromise between Democrat and Republican yields a product that nobody likes.  But in this case, the Republicans were ignored because they lacked the votes to do anything.  Therefore, Democrats negotiated with themselves and their campaign contributors (the healthcare industry and insurers) and this is what they came up with.  Strategically, it make sense to force the Democrats to play the lousy hand that they dealt themselves.  Hold them accountable -- on election day.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" how the hell did we arrive at this retarded status quo and why the hell do teabaggers and republicans oppose simple common sense reform of a horrible stituation ? " 1 .
Excessive pork : Cornhusker medicare , the " Louisiana Purchase " , etc.2 .
Insurance " mandatory purchase " likely to hit middle class .
The same people lack coverage now will be forced to buy what they already know they ca n't afford.3 .
Federally-subsidized abortion funding .
Some are 100 \ % in favor , some are 100 \ % opposed .
It 's a polarizing issue , no doubt.4 .
Taxation on " Cadillac " health plans ; looks like a " redistribution of wealth " scheme directed largely at the middle class.5 .
Special union exemptions from the " Cadillac tax " .
What happens when an employer has both union and non-union employees and offers the same plan to both ?
Oops.6. No significant relief from the downside of relying on employer-sponsored insurance .
Most of the population gains nothing under the House or Senate bills.7 .
No increased competition for the healthcare industry , the insurers , the lawyers , etc .
This means no price breaks will be coming anytime soon.8 .
No public option .
Combine this with # 7 above , and we have a plan that offers less than nothing , at excessive cost.The Democrats placed themselves in the position .
Most of the time , compromise between Democrat and Republican yields a product that nobody likes .
But in this case , the Republicans were ignored because they lacked the votes to do anything .
Therefore , Democrats negotiated with themselves and their campaign contributors ( the healthcare industry and insurers ) and this is what they came up with .
Strategically , it make sense to force the Democrats to play the lousy hand that they dealt themselves .
Hold them accountable -- on election day .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"how the hell did we arrive at this retarded status quo and why the hell do teabaggers and republicans oppose simple common sense reform of a horrible stituation?"1.
Excessive pork: Cornhusker medicare, the "Louisiana Purchase", etc.2.
Insurance "mandatory purchase" likely to hit middle class.
The same people lack coverage now will be forced to buy what they already know they can't afford.3.
Federally-subsidized abortion funding.
Some are 100\% in favor, some are 100\% opposed.
It's a polarizing issue, no doubt.4.
Taxation on "Cadillac" health plans; looks like a "redistribution of wealth" scheme directed largely at the middle class.5.
Special union exemptions from the "Cadillac tax".
What happens when an employer has both union and non-union employees and offers the same plan to both?
Oops.6. No significant relief from the downside of relying on employer-sponsored insurance.
Most of the population gains nothing under the House or Senate bills.7.
No increased competition for the healthcare industry, the insurers, the lawyers, etc.
This means no price breaks will be coming anytime soon.8.
No public option.
Combine this with #7 above, and we have a plan that offers less than nothing, at excessive cost.The Democrats placed themselves in the position.
Most of the time, compromise between Democrat and Republican yields a product that nobody likes.
But in this case, the Republicans were ignored because they lacked the votes to do anything.
Therefore, Democrats negotiated with themselves and their campaign contributors (the healthcare industry and insurers) and this is what they came up with.
Strategically, it make sense to force the Democrats to play the lousy hand that they dealt themselves.
Hold them accountable -- on election day.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230810</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31266484</id>
	<title>The right place at the right time</title>
	<author>smylingsam</author>
	<datestamp>1265113980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hi,</p><p>You left a critical piece of the puzzle out -- what state are you in? Some states (like new york) have soem form of state sponsored insurance. Here is an example:</p><p><a href="http://www.ins.state.ny.us/website2/hny/english/hny.htm" title="state.ny.us" rel="nofollow">http://www.ins.state.ny.us/website2/hny/english/hny.htm</a> [state.ny.us]<br>and something similar from Maryland<br><a href="http://www.marylandhealthinsuranceplan.state.md.us/" title="state.md.us" rel="nofollow">http://www.marylandhealthinsuranceplan.state.md.us/</a> [state.md.us]</p><p>While not every state is so forward thinking with luck you live in a state that has decided to enter some form of collective bargaining on behalf of it's uninsured citizens. Without this form of collective bargaining you will have few options that are not financially damming - especially if you get sick.</p><p>Note: Make your choice BEFORE you give notice as you will only have 60 days before your HIPAA waiver for preexisting conditions makes you uninsured for pre existing conditions .</p><p>Good Luck!!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hi,You left a critical piece of the puzzle out -- what state are you in ?
Some states ( like new york ) have soem form of state sponsored insurance .
Here is an example : http : //www.ins.state.ny.us/website2/hny/english/hny.htm [ state.ny.us ] and something similar from Marylandhttp : //www.marylandhealthinsuranceplan.state.md.us/ [ state.md.us ] While not every state is so forward thinking with luck you live in a state that has decided to enter some form of collective bargaining on behalf of it 's uninsured citizens .
Without this form of collective bargaining you will have few options that are not financially damming - especially if you get sick.Note : Make your choice BEFORE you give notice as you will only have 60 days before your HIPAA waiver for preexisting conditions makes you uninsured for pre existing conditions .Good Luck !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hi,You left a critical piece of the puzzle out -- what state are you in?
Some states (like new york) have soem form of state sponsored insurance.
Here is an example:http://www.ins.state.ny.us/website2/hny/english/hny.htm [state.ny.us]and something similar from Marylandhttp://www.marylandhealthinsuranceplan.state.md.us/ [state.md.us]While not every state is so forward thinking with luck you live in a state that has decided to enter some form of collective bargaining on behalf of it's uninsured citizens.
Without this form of collective bargaining you will have few options that are not financially damming - especially if you get sick.Note: Make your choice BEFORE you give notice as you will only have 60 days before your HIPAA waiver for preexisting conditions makes you uninsured for pre existing conditions .Good Luck!
!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230692</id>
	<title>So where've you been?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266861060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Did you just wake up from a 2 century nap or something?  It's \_always\_ been a bitch getting health insurance without the help of an employer, and it's \_always\_ been the insurers' primary goal to make money by not paying your claims.   Pardon my sarcasm, but you might want to subscribe to Newsweek or read a non-Slashtot blog now and again.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Did you just wake up from a 2 century nap or something ?
It 's \ _always \ _ been a bitch getting health insurance without the help of an employer , and it 's \ _always \ _ been the insurers ' primary goal to make money by not paying your claims .
Pardon my sarcasm , but you might want to subscribe to Newsweek or read a non-Slashtot blog now and again .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Did you just wake up from a 2 century nap or something?
It's \_always\_ been a bitch getting health insurance without the help of an employer, and it's \_always\_ been the insurers' primary goal to make money by not paying your claims.
Pardon my sarcasm, but you might want to subscribe to Newsweek or read a non-Slashtot blog now and again.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31239422</id>
	<title>Re:Move where?</title>
	<author>mjwx</author>
	<datestamp>1266849480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Canada has a stable government and isn't going to be embroiled in conflict any time soon.</p></div></blockquote><p>

Also I rarely hear Canadian<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/.ers advocating armed revolution over trivial issues. Unless Canada doesn't win the Ice Hockey in Vancouver.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Canada has a stable government and is n't going to be embroiled in conflict any time soon .
Also I rarely hear Canadian /.ers advocating armed revolution over trivial issues .
Unless Canada does n't win the Ice Hockey in Vancouver .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Canada has a stable government and isn't going to be embroiled in conflict any time soon.
Also I rarely hear Canadian /.ers advocating armed revolution over trivial issues.
Unless Canada doesn't win the Ice Hockey in Vancouver.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231130</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230736</id>
	<title>Seriously, try "Artists' Guide" - for solo workers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266861180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Seriously, although this book is aimed at artists, they have a whole chapter devoted to dealing with these issues, because (duh) you're usually ON YOUR OWN. http://www.artistcareerguide.com/book.php Good luck!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Seriously , although this book is aimed at artists , they have a whole chapter devoted to dealing with these issues , because ( duh ) you 're usually ON YOUR OWN .
http : //www.artistcareerguide.com/book.php Good luck !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seriously, although this book is aimed at artists, they have a whole chapter devoted to dealing with these issues, because (duh) you're usually ON YOUR OWN.
http://www.artistcareerguide.com/book.php Good luck!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231462</id>
	<title>Marry Well</title>
	<author>BlueBoxSW.com</author>
	<datestamp>1266863100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That is all.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That is all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That is all.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31237392</id>
	<title>Obligatory Saw VI Reference...</title>
	<author>seanvaandering</author>
	<datestamp>1266838500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>"We have it all as* backwards here... These politicians, they say the same thing over and over and over again... Health care decisions should be made by doctors and their patients, not by the government... Well now I know that the decisions are not made by the doctors, the patients, or the government... They are made by the insurance companies"

~ John Kramer (Jigsaw), Saw VI</htmltext>
<tokenext>" We have it all as * backwards here... These politicians , they say the same thing over and over and over again... Health care decisions should be made by doctors and their patients , not by the government... Well now I know that the decisions are not made by the doctors , the patients , or the government... They are made by the insurance companies " ~ John Kramer ( Jigsaw ) , Saw VI</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"We have it all as* backwards here... These politicians, they say the same thing over and over and over again... Health care decisions should be made by doctors and their patients, not by the government... Well now I know that the decisions are not made by the doctors, the patients, or the government... They are made by the insurance companies"

~ John Kramer (Jigsaw), Saw VI</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231036</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>j\_sp\_r</author>
	<datestamp>1266862080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah and? If a condition is not life threatening then you can wait. IF a condition is life threatening then either you get it immediately or you get a CAT scan (which is faster most of the times)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah and ?
If a condition is not life threatening then you can wait .
IF a condition is life threatening then either you get it immediately or you get a CAT scan ( which is faster most of the times )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah and?
If a condition is not life threatening then you can wait.
IF a condition is life threatening then either you get it immediately or you get a CAT scan (which is faster most of the times)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230768</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231280</id>
	<title>Re:you're screwed</title>
	<author>iamacat</author>
	<datestamp>1266862620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wouldn't you be more confident to quit a corp and start a business if you, your family and your employees would still get their hospital bills payed even when you are short on cash? Even if you are asked to pay more taxes when and if you become a huge success? Where will you cough up $2K/months/employee from unless you are as rich as McCain with his 7 houses? Somehow I don't think you will be getting much help from Republicans.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Would n't you be more confident to quit a corp and start a business if you , your family and your employees would still get their hospital bills payed even when you are short on cash ?
Even if you are asked to pay more taxes when and if you become a huge success ?
Where will you cough up $ 2K/months/employee from unless you are as rich as McCain with his 7 houses ?
Somehow I do n't think you will be getting much help from Republicans .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wouldn't you be more confident to quit a corp and start a business if you, your family and your employees would still get their hospital bills payed even when you are short on cash?
Even if you are asked to pay more taxes when and if you become a huge success?
Where will you cough up $2K/months/employee from unless you are as rich as McCain with his 7 houses?
Somehow I don't think you will be getting much help from Republicans.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230694</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31238052</id>
	<title>Socialist Healthcare</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266841380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I challenge any of the Healtcare nay-sayers and fear mongers that think a government-supported healtcare is bad, to GIVE UP their luxurious health plan just for ONE year.... I am pretty sure that the experience will open their eyes.<br>Btw, the US is the only Western country that allows its citizens to go broke over medical bills<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.... hmmm</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I challenge any of the Healtcare nay-sayers and fear mongers that think a government-supported healtcare is bad , to GIVE UP their luxurious health plan just for ONE year.... I am pretty sure that the experience will open their eyes.Btw , the US is the only Western country that allows its citizens to go broke over medical bills .... hmmm</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I challenge any of the Healtcare nay-sayers and fear mongers that think a government-supported healtcare is bad, to GIVE UP their luxurious health plan just for ONE year.... I am pretty sure that the experience will open their eyes.Btw, the US is the only Western country that allows its citizens to go broke over medical bills .... hmmm</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31234938</id>
	<title>Depends on your current location</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266830760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you live in the only first world country without a social health care system, then you can move to Canada. You are also able to move to any other first world country, but in most other countries you have to learn a additional language.</p><p>If you live in a non first world country, you are most likely in trouble, because most 1. world countries won't let you in until you have a job. However, if you are an IT expert of some sort, you can get a job in many fist world countries, because we all have a shortage of manpower in this area. Preferably move to a country with functioning labor unions (e.g. France or Germany not the USA). In these countries you get:<br>- General health care (state driven)<br>- If you are sick, you still get your payment<br>- you get 20-25 workdays off with payment (in Germany)<br>- If you get laid off and you have work for several years you get money from the unemployment insurance<br>- In Germany for example: You have to pay for a health insurance institution, but your employer pays almost half of you health insurance. You have not to pay more money if you have kids or a wife/husband or a wife/husband and several kids. And in case of an unemployment, you pay less.<br>- In the case that you are really, really poor you get state money for your living, for your kids living etc. and of course health care is included.</p><p>On the other hand you can refuse supporting socialism (which means that we care for each other) and go to the one and only free country.</p><p>BTW: Have fun with your (a)cute appendicitis. And while all these socialists go to hell, you go faster to heaven.</p><p>
&nbsp;</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you live in the only first world country without a social health care system , then you can move to Canada .
You are also able to move to any other first world country , but in most other countries you have to learn a additional language.If you live in a non first world country , you are most likely in trouble , because most 1. world countries wo n't let you in until you have a job .
However , if you are an IT expert of some sort , you can get a job in many fist world countries , because we all have a shortage of manpower in this area .
Preferably move to a country with functioning labor unions ( e.g .
France or Germany not the USA ) .
In these countries you get : - General health care ( state driven ) - If you are sick , you still get your payment- you get 20-25 workdays off with payment ( in Germany ) - If you get laid off and you have work for several years you get money from the unemployment insurance- In Germany for example : You have to pay for a health insurance institution , but your employer pays almost half of you health insurance .
You have not to pay more money if you have kids or a wife/husband or a wife/husband and several kids .
And in case of an unemployment , you pay less.- In the case that you are really , really poor you get state money for your living , for your kids living etc .
and of course health care is included.On the other hand you can refuse supporting socialism ( which means that we care for each other ) and go to the one and only free country.BTW : Have fun with your ( a ) cute appendicitis .
And while all these socialists go to hell , you go faster to heaven .
 </tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you live in the only first world country without a social health care system, then you can move to Canada.
You are also able to move to any other first world country, but in most other countries you have to learn a additional language.If you live in a non first world country, you are most likely in trouble, because most 1. world countries won't let you in until you have a job.
However, if you are an IT expert of some sort, you can get a job in many fist world countries, because we all have a shortage of manpower in this area.
Preferably move to a country with functioning labor unions (e.g.
France or Germany not the USA).
In these countries you get:- General health care (state driven)- If you are sick, you still get your payment- you get 20-25 workdays off with payment (in Germany)- If you get laid off and you have work for several years you get money from the unemployment insurance- In Germany for example: You have to pay for a health insurance institution, but your employer pays almost half of you health insurance.
You have not to pay more money if you have kids or a wife/husband or a wife/husband and several kids.
And in case of an unemployment, you pay less.- In the case that you are really, really poor you get state money for your living, for your kids living etc.
and of course health care is included.On the other hand you can refuse supporting socialism (which means that we care for each other) and go to the one and only free country.BTW: Have fun with your (a)cute appendicitis.
And while all these socialists go to hell, you go faster to heaven.
 </sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31234142</id>
	<title>Re:I did the same for a while...</title>
	<author>CodeInspired</author>
	<datestamp>1266871560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Really?  15 hours a week to live a healthy life.  Sounds like a pretty reasonable deal to me.

I think this is half the problem.  Health Care / Health Insurance is not a priority for a lot of people.

The question should be, who <b>wouldn't</b> work an extra 15 hours a week if it meant your family could live long, healthy lives?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Really ?
15 hours a week to live a healthy life .
Sounds like a pretty reasonable deal to me .
I think this is half the problem .
Health Care / Health Insurance is not a priority for a lot of people .
The question should be , who would n't work an extra 15 hours a week if it meant your family could live long , healthy lives ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Really?
15 hours a week to live a healthy life.
Sounds like a pretty reasonable deal to me.
I think this is half the problem.
Health Care / Health Insurance is not a priority for a lot of people.
The question should be, who wouldn't work an extra 15 hours a week if it meant your family could live long, healthy lives?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230926</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231636</id>
	<title>So sad....</title>
	<author>karcirate</author>
	<datestamp>1266863460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It really saddens me to see that on<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. a discussion about health care is just as uninformed and banal as I have seen all over the internet.
</p><p>
My only viewpoint is:  I would rather have to buy my own insurance, and become dirt poor because of the high cost, than have "universal" health care, and become dirt poor because of the crazy taxes and crappy economy that are sure to result (ya I said that).
</p><p>
IOW - I'd like to control my own life, which includes my healthcare, and I thought that was kinda the whole point of the "free" USA.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It really saddens me to see that on / .
a discussion about health care is just as uninformed and banal as I have seen all over the internet .
My only viewpoint is : I would rather have to buy my own insurance , and become dirt poor because of the high cost , than have " universal " health care , and become dirt poor because of the crazy taxes and crappy economy that are sure to result ( ya I said that ) .
IOW - I 'd like to control my own life , which includes my healthcare , and I thought that was kinda the whole point of the " free " USA .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It really saddens me to see that on /.
a discussion about health care is just as uninformed and banal as I have seen all over the internet.
My only viewpoint is:  I would rather have to buy my own insurance, and become dirt poor because of the high cost, than have "universal" health care, and become dirt poor because of the crazy taxes and crappy economy that are sure to result (ya I said that).
IOW - I'd like to control my own life, which includes my healthcare, and I thought that was kinda the whole point of the "free" USA.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231506</id>
	<title>Healthcare is the enemy of entrepreneurship</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266863160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm a four time serial entrepreneur, but each time I start a new company I panic about this.  Because I once saw a doctor about a pain in my foot that might be arthritic, I am denied coverage by every carrier out there.  I even hired an independent broker to help me, but he had no luck either.  I've never gotten or needed additional treatment for my foot (or anything else) and I'm a healthy non-drinker, non-smoker in my thirties.</p><p>It's not only as bad as you were told, it's worse.  I also mentor other entrepreneurs and when I talked to anyone older than 30, the main reason not to take the plunge is health insurance.  Bless the 20-somethings who aren't worried and expect to live forever.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm a four time serial entrepreneur , but each time I start a new company I panic about this .
Because I once saw a doctor about a pain in my foot that might be arthritic , I am denied coverage by every carrier out there .
I even hired an independent broker to help me , but he had no luck either .
I 've never gotten or needed additional treatment for my foot ( or anything else ) and I 'm a healthy non-drinker , non-smoker in my thirties.It 's not only as bad as you were told , it 's worse .
I also mentor other entrepreneurs and when I talked to anyone older than 30 , the main reason not to take the plunge is health insurance .
Bless the 20-somethings who are n't worried and expect to live forever .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm a four time serial entrepreneur, but each time I start a new company I panic about this.
Because I once saw a doctor about a pain in my foot that might be arthritic, I am denied coverage by every carrier out there.
I even hired an independent broker to help me, but he had no luck either.
I've never gotten or needed additional treatment for my foot (or anything else) and I'm a healthy non-drinker, non-smoker in my thirties.It's not only as bad as you were told, it's worse.
I also mentor other entrepreneurs and when I talked to anyone older than 30, the main reason not to take the plunge is health insurance.
Bless the 20-somethings who aren't worried and expect to live forever.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233214</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266868620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're right, thats what TAXES are for.  160 billion is nothing in a federal budget.  About how much Iraq costs yearly!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're right , thats what TAXES are for .
160 billion is nothing in a federal budget .
About how much Iraq costs yearly !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're right, thats what TAXES are for.
160 billion is nothing in a federal budget.
About how much Iraq costs yearly!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230874</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31241000</id>
	<title>Re:Facts.</title>
	<author>m0rm3gil</author>
	<datestamp>1266862920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm an Australian, and ditto. Standing from the outside looking in, the U.S. health care system is like some sort of horrific joke.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm an Australian , and ditto .
Standing from the outside looking in , the U.S. health care system is like some sort of horrific joke .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm an Australian, and ditto.
Standing from the outside looking in, the U.S. health care system is like some sort of horrific joke.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231000</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231138</id>
	<title>If you have some funds...</title>
	<author>HikingStick</author>
	<datestamp>1266862320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>IANAL, but do have some entrepreneurial experience.<br> <br>
If you have some extra cash to burn during the transition, I strongly advise you to consider incorporating your business from day one.  Form a chapter-S (closely held) corporation, and name yourself (and you spouse, if applicable) as officers of the corporation.  Then, have the corporation pay all of your health insurance costs.  Those costs are then deductable for the corporation.  The cost to incporporate will vary from state to state, but you should be able to do it for less than $1,500.  You won't necessarily get any better rates.  It simply allows your premiums to be deductable. Once incorporated, most States have limited requirements regarding your operation, typically requiring an annual business meeting and the filing of an annual report with the appropriate State department.<br> <br>Of course, since IANAL, I strongly recommend that you check into the specific laws of your State or Province, to make sure this would be a good move for you. If allowed, and if you can afford it, it is the best way to decrease the pain of needing to pay for your own health insurance.  It comes with the added plus side of helping to shield your personal assets in case of any liability claims against the business.  Of course, when just getting started, many companies with which you do business may require a personal guarantee since the business will have no credit history.<br> <br>Do think about it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>IANAL , but do have some entrepreneurial experience .
If you have some extra cash to burn during the transition , I strongly advise you to consider incorporating your business from day one .
Form a chapter-S ( closely held ) corporation , and name yourself ( and you spouse , if applicable ) as officers of the corporation .
Then , have the corporation pay all of your health insurance costs .
Those costs are then deductable for the corporation .
The cost to incporporate will vary from state to state , but you should be able to do it for less than $ 1,500 .
You wo n't necessarily get any better rates .
It simply allows your premiums to be deductable .
Once incorporated , most States have limited requirements regarding your operation , typically requiring an annual business meeting and the filing of an annual report with the appropriate State department .
Of course , since IANAL , I strongly recommend that you check into the specific laws of your State or Province , to make sure this would be a good move for you .
If allowed , and if you can afford it , it is the best way to decrease the pain of needing to pay for your own health insurance .
It comes with the added plus side of helping to shield your personal assets in case of any liability claims against the business .
Of course , when just getting started , many companies with which you do business may require a personal guarantee since the business will have no credit history .
Do think about it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>IANAL, but do have some entrepreneurial experience.
If you have some extra cash to burn during the transition, I strongly advise you to consider incorporating your business from day one.
Form a chapter-S (closely held) corporation, and name yourself (and you spouse, if applicable) as officers of the corporation.
Then, have the corporation pay all of your health insurance costs.
Those costs are then deductable for the corporation.
The cost to incporporate will vary from state to state, but you should be able to do it for less than $1,500.
You won't necessarily get any better rates.
It simply allows your premiums to be deductable.
Once incorporated, most States have limited requirements regarding your operation, typically requiring an annual business meeting and the filing of an annual report with the appropriate State department.
Of course, since IANAL, I strongly recommend that you check into the specific laws of your State or Province, to make sure this would be a good move for you.
If allowed, and if you can afford it, it is the best way to decrease the pain of needing to pay for your own health insurance.
It comes with the added plus side of helping to shield your personal assets in case of any liability claims against the business.
Of course, when just getting started, many companies with which you do business may require a personal guarantee since the business will have no credit history.
Do think about it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231334</id>
	<title>Re:you're screwed</title>
	<author>tthomas48</author>
	<datestamp>1266862740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Please post links to the McCain plan to fix health care. Oh right. There is none. It's really productive to criticize an entire bill based on a competitors campaign promise.</p><p>My suggestion? Vote Democrat so that Republicans get such a small voting percentage that corporations no longer want to support them. This will allow new parties to spring up and hopefully a viable one will emerge. Voting Republican will just make you angry again when they yet again do nothing and spend a lot of money doing it. The Democrats already do the whole "conservative" thing far better than Republicans. Some of us would rather have a conservative and liberal party (and maybe one or two more), rather than a "party for people who want to get stuff done" and a "party that wants to rant and waste money".</p><p>It's time to get rid of the Republican party and get a new one that can deal with Democrats like adults. Let the Republican party become the marginal home of evangelical christians and anti-government nutjobs that it so desperately wants to be, and let us have at least two parties that are interested in coming to the table and figuring out ways to make our country work. Of course the Democrats are coming up with inelegant solutions. It's because there's no one coming up with alternatives.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Please post links to the McCain plan to fix health care .
Oh right .
There is none .
It 's really productive to criticize an entire bill based on a competitors campaign promise.My suggestion ?
Vote Democrat so that Republicans get such a small voting percentage that corporations no longer want to support them .
This will allow new parties to spring up and hopefully a viable one will emerge .
Voting Republican will just make you angry again when they yet again do nothing and spend a lot of money doing it .
The Democrats already do the whole " conservative " thing far better than Republicans .
Some of us would rather have a conservative and liberal party ( and maybe one or two more ) , rather than a " party for people who want to get stuff done " and a " party that wants to rant and waste money " .It 's time to get rid of the Republican party and get a new one that can deal with Democrats like adults .
Let the Republican party become the marginal home of evangelical christians and anti-government nutjobs that it so desperately wants to be , and let us have at least two parties that are interested in coming to the table and figuring out ways to make our country work .
Of course the Democrats are coming up with inelegant solutions .
It 's because there 's no one coming up with alternatives .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Please post links to the McCain plan to fix health care.
Oh right.
There is none.
It's really productive to criticize an entire bill based on a competitors campaign promise.My suggestion?
Vote Democrat so that Republicans get such a small voting percentage that corporations no longer want to support them.
This will allow new parties to spring up and hopefully a viable one will emerge.
Voting Republican will just make you angry again when they yet again do nothing and spend a lot of money doing it.
The Democrats already do the whole "conservative" thing far better than Republicans.
Some of us would rather have a conservative and liberal party (and maybe one or two more), rather than a "party for people who want to get stuff done" and a "party that wants to rant and waste money".It's time to get rid of the Republican party and get a new one that can deal with Democrats like adults.
Let the Republican party become the marginal home of evangelical christians and anti-government nutjobs that it so desperately wants to be, and let us have at least two parties that are interested in coming to the table and figuring out ways to make our country work.
Of course the Democrats are coming up with inelegant solutions.
It's because there's no one coming up with alternatives.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230694</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231522</id>
	<title>Re:I did the same for a while...</title>
	<author>PatHMV</author>
	<datestamp>1266863220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>As opposed to what? Somebody else trading 15 hours of THEIR life simply so YOU can live a healthy life? That's the part that sounds like indentured servitude to me. Oh my gosh! You have to work 30 hours a week to pay for the food and lodging you and your family need, simply to stay alive? Oh, the horror!

You want the benefits of medical care, you pay for the benefits of medical care. Why should money I earn be taxed and used to pay for benefits for you? Indentured servitude is what I'm experiencing when 40\% of my paycheck goes to pay for medical care and other services for OTHER people besides myself and my family.</htmltext>
<tokenext>As opposed to what ?
Somebody else trading 15 hours of THEIR life simply so YOU can live a healthy life ?
That 's the part that sounds like indentured servitude to me .
Oh my gosh !
You have to work 30 hours a week to pay for the food and lodging you and your family need , simply to stay alive ?
Oh , the horror !
You want the benefits of medical care , you pay for the benefits of medical care .
Why should money I earn be taxed and used to pay for benefits for you ?
Indentured servitude is what I 'm experiencing when 40 \ % of my paycheck goes to pay for medical care and other services for OTHER people besides myself and my family .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As opposed to what?
Somebody else trading 15 hours of THEIR life simply so YOU can live a healthy life?
That's the part that sounds like indentured servitude to me.
Oh my gosh!
You have to work 30 hours a week to pay for the food and lodging you and your family need, simply to stay alive?
Oh, the horror!
You want the benefits of medical care, you pay for the benefits of medical care.
Why should money I earn be taxed and used to pay for benefits for you?
Indentured servitude is what I'm experiencing when 40\% of my paycheck goes to pay for medical care and other services for OTHER people besides myself and my family.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230926</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231152</id>
	<title>Individual Coverage is available.</title>
	<author>nickberry</author>
	<datestamp>1266862320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There are programs out there for small business owners, and individuals. I was covering myself and my daughter through a program directly through BCBS of Texas. Find the local blue cross blue shield, and ask about individual coverage, or the risk pool depending on the state you're in.</htmltext>
<tokenext>There are programs out there for small business owners , and individuals .
I was covering myself and my daughter through a program directly through BCBS of Texas .
Find the local blue cross blue shield , and ask about individual coverage , or the risk pool depending on the state you 're in .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are programs out there for small business owners, and individuals.
I was covering myself and my daughter through a program directly through BCBS of Texas.
Find the local blue cross blue shield, and ask about individual coverage, or the risk pool depending on the state you're in.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31235826</id>
	<title>Re:I did the same for a while...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266833340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> That sounds an awful lot like indentured servitude to me.</p></div><p>  This is the health care rant.  H-1Bs are in a separate thread.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>That sounds an awful lot like indentured servitude to me .
This is the health care rant .
H-1Bs are in a separate thread .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> That sounds an awful lot like indentured servitude to me.
This is the health care rant.
H-1Bs are in a separate thread.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230926</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31235510</id>
	<title>Canadian health care story</title>
	<author>Mountain Wookie</author>
	<datestamp>1266832500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I wanted to share my latest experience in the Canadian health care system.


Last October my wife was diagnosed with breast cancer. Within a few days she was in for surgery. One month after the surgery her chemotherapy started. She has had 4 chemo sessions so far and only two to go. Her surgeon and oncologist both are specialists in breast cancer and our oncologist is also the head of the breast cancer tumor board in our province. There are numerous programs to deal with the physical, emotional and social aspects of her cancer, not only for her but for myself also.


Everytime we have appointments with our doctors we are never rushed and they always want to know if there is anything else they can do to help.


So far the only medical expense we have been billed for is $48 for a two night stay in the hospital because we chose a semi-private room. We haven't even had to use my work health plan for anything yet because it is all being covered by our provincial health care system. Even 75\% of the prosthetics are covered by our gov't. I call them foobies;&gt; And when it comes time for reconstruction that is also covered.


I guess the point I am trying to make is that there may be some longer waits in Canada for non-urgent issues but in my experience whenever it is an urgent health care matter you get into the system fast. Also the scary thing for me is that most of the cancer related books we have read are from the US and there is always at least one chapter on managing the financial side of cancer and negotiating with your insurance company. I can't even imagine having to deal with that kind of financial stress above all the other stresses that we have been dealing with.


This is the kind of care that the people of the US should be demanding from their government.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I wanted to share my latest experience in the Canadian health care system .
Last October my wife was diagnosed with breast cancer .
Within a few days she was in for surgery .
One month after the surgery her chemotherapy started .
She has had 4 chemo sessions so far and only two to go .
Her surgeon and oncologist both are specialists in breast cancer and our oncologist is also the head of the breast cancer tumor board in our province .
There are numerous programs to deal with the physical , emotional and social aspects of her cancer , not only for her but for myself also .
Everytime we have appointments with our doctors we are never rushed and they always want to know if there is anything else they can do to help .
So far the only medical expense we have been billed for is $ 48 for a two night stay in the hospital because we chose a semi-private room .
We have n't even had to use my work health plan for anything yet because it is all being covered by our provincial health care system .
Even 75 \ % of the prosthetics are covered by our gov't .
I call them foobies ; &gt; And when it comes time for reconstruction that is also covered .
I guess the point I am trying to make is that there may be some longer waits in Canada for non-urgent issues but in my experience whenever it is an urgent health care matter you get into the system fast .
Also the scary thing for me is that most of the cancer related books we have read are from the US and there is always at least one chapter on managing the financial side of cancer and negotiating with your insurance company .
I ca n't even imagine having to deal with that kind of financial stress above all the other stresses that we have been dealing with .
This is the kind of care that the people of the US should be demanding from their government .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I wanted to share my latest experience in the Canadian health care system.
Last October my wife was diagnosed with breast cancer.
Within a few days she was in for surgery.
One month after the surgery her chemotherapy started.
She has had 4 chemo sessions so far and only two to go.
Her surgeon and oncologist both are specialists in breast cancer and our oncologist is also the head of the breast cancer tumor board in our province.
There are numerous programs to deal with the physical, emotional and social aspects of her cancer, not only for her but for myself also.
Everytime we have appointments with our doctors we are never rushed and they always want to know if there is anything else they can do to help.
So far the only medical expense we have been billed for is $48 for a two night stay in the hospital because we chose a semi-private room.
We haven't even had to use my work health plan for anything yet because it is all being covered by our provincial health care system.
Even 75\% of the prosthetics are covered by our gov't.
I call them foobies;&gt; And when it comes time for reconstruction that is also covered.
I guess the point I am trying to make is that there may be some longer waits in Canada for non-urgent issues but in my experience whenever it is an urgent health care matter you get into the system fast.
Also the scary thing for me is that most of the cancer related books we have read are from the US and there is always at least one chapter on managing the financial side of cancer and negotiating with your insurance company.
I can't even imagine having to deal with that kind of financial stress above all the other stresses that we have been dealing with.
This is the kind of care that the people of the US should be demanding from their government.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232728</id>
	<title>Its not that hard or expensive, here's what I did</title>
	<author>digitalride</author>
	<datestamp>1266866700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Despite all the scare mongering, if you are reasonably healthy you can probably get a a high deductible plan for a few hundred dollars a month.  I started my own business 6 years ago and have had my own insurance through two different providers.  Things are different from state to state, but I used this site:
<a href="http://www.nationalhealthaccess.com/" title="nationalhealthaccess.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.nationalhealthaccess.com/</a> [nationalhealthaccess.com]
to compare and get some basic quotes.
<br> <br>
I have a $10000 deductible policy that costs just over $100/mo for me and my wife.  We were able to get health insurance for our newborn through a state program and that has a very low deductible and that costs a little over $100/mo.  In Wisconsin no matter how much money you make kids under age 18 can get some sort of care for reasonable cost.  If we weren't in Wisconsin we'd probably be on a $300/mo plan for all three of us with a $2000 deductible, which is still pretty cheap in my opinion.  If your health is one of the most valuable things in your life, it makes sense to me that you should be prepared to spend a corresponding amount of your money on it.  I dread the prospect of it becoming "free" in the US.
<br> <br>
If you don't have enough money in the bank to cover a few worst case years of $2k-10k medical bills, you probably shouldn't be leaving your corporate job. Make sure you get your new coverage started BEFORE you leave your current job, COBRA is very expensive and in my opinion is a last resort to avoid coverage gaps.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Despite all the scare mongering , if you are reasonably healthy you can probably get a a high deductible plan for a few hundred dollars a month .
I started my own business 6 years ago and have had my own insurance through two different providers .
Things are different from state to state , but I used this site : http : //www.nationalhealthaccess.com/ [ nationalhealthaccess.com ] to compare and get some basic quotes .
I have a $ 10000 deductible policy that costs just over $ 100/mo for me and my wife .
We were able to get health insurance for our newborn through a state program and that has a very low deductible and that costs a little over $ 100/mo .
In Wisconsin no matter how much money you make kids under age 18 can get some sort of care for reasonable cost .
If we were n't in Wisconsin we 'd probably be on a $ 300/mo plan for all three of us with a $ 2000 deductible , which is still pretty cheap in my opinion .
If your health is one of the most valuable things in your life , it makes sense to me that you should be prepared to spend a corresponding amount of your money on it .
I dread the prospect of it becoming " free " in the US .
If you do n't have enough money in the bank to cover a few worst case years of $ 2k-10k medical bills , you probably should n't be leaving your corporate job .
Make sure you get your new coverage started BEFORE you leave your current job , COBRA is very expensive and in my opinion is a last resort to avoid coverage gaps .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Despite all the scare mongering, if you are reasonably healthy you can probably get a a high deductible plan for a few hundred dollars a month.
I started my own business 6 years ago and have had my own insurance through two different providers.
Things are different from state to state, but I used this site:
http://www.nationalhealthaccess.com/ [nationalhealthaccess.com]
to compare and get some basic quotes.
I have a $10000 deductible policy that costs just over $100/mo for me and my wife.
We were able to get health insurance for our newborn through a state program and that has a very low deductible and that costs a little over $100/mo.
In Wisconsin no matter how much money you make kids under age 18 can get some sort of care for reasonable cost.
If we weren't in Wisconsin we'd probably be on a $300/mo plan for all three of us with a $2000 deductible, which is still pretty cheap in my opinion.
If your health is one of the most valuable things in your life, it makes sense to me that you should be prepared to spend a corresponding amount of your money on it.
I dread the prospect of it becoming "free" in the US.
If you don't have enough money in the bank to cover a few worst case years of $2k-10k medical bills, you probably shouldn't be leaving your corporate job.
Make sure you get your new coverage started BEFORE you leave your current job, COBRA is very expensive and in my opinion is a last resort to avoid coverage gaps.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232296</id>
	<title>Re:I did the same for a while...</title>
	<author>dasunt</author>
	<datestamp>1266865260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>As opposed to what? Somebody else trading 15 hours of THEIR life simply so YOU can live a healthy life? That's the part that sounds like indentured servitude to me. Oh my gosh! You have to work 30 hours a week to pay for the food and lodging you and your family need, simply to stay alive? Oh, the horror! You want the benefits of medical care, you pay for the benefits of medical care. Why should money I earn be taxed and used to pay for benefits for you? Indentured servitude is what I'm experiencing when 40\% of my paycheck goes to pay for medical care and other services for OTHER people besides myself and my family.</p></div></blockquote><p>
Actually, in America, per-capita healthcare costs are thousands of dollars higher than countries such as Canada or the UK.
</p><p>
So we're all spending more on healthcare, but our coverage is less, and we don't live as long.
</p><p>
If we could make our system as efficient as Canada's, we'd spend less and everyone would have coverage.
</p><p>
Unfortunately, the Democrat's plans seem to be extending our existing bloated system to cover more people.
</p><p>
And the Republicans will occasionally give lip service to healthcare costs, but don't seem interested in acting on it.
</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>As opposed to what ?
Somebody else trading 15 hours of THEIR life simply so YOU can live a healthy life ?
That 's the part that sounds like indentured servitude to me .
Oh my gosh !
You have to work 30 hours a week to pay for the food and lodging you and your family need , simply to stay alive ?
Oh , the horror !
You want the benefits of medical care , you pay for the benefits of medical care .
Why should money I earn be taxed and used to pay for benefits for you ?
Indentured servitude is what I 'm experiencing when 40 \ % of my paycheck goes to pay for medical care and other services for OTHER people besides myself and my family .
Actually , in America , per-capita healthcare costs are thousands of dollars higher than countries such as Canada or the UK .
So we 're all spending more on healthcare , but our coverage is less , and we do n't live as long .
If we could make our system as efficient as Canada 's , we 'd spend less and everyone would have coverage .
Unfortunately , the Democrat 's plans seem to be extending our existing bloated system to cover more people .
And the Republicans will occasionally give lip service to healthcare costs , but do n't seem interested in acting on it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As opposed to what?
Somebody else trading 15 hours of THEIR life simply so YOU can live a healthy life?
That's the part that sounds like indentured servitude to me.
Oh my gosh!
You have to work 30 hours a week to pay for the food and lodging you and your family need, simply to stay alive?
Oh, the horror!
You want the benefits of medical care, you pay for the benefits of medical care.
Why should money I earn be taxed and used to pay for benefits for you?
Indentured servitude is what I'm experiencing when 40\% of my paycheck goes to pay for medical care and other services for OTHER people besides myself and my family.
Actually, in America, per-capita healthcare costs are thousands of dollars higher than countries such as Canada or the UK.
So we're all spending more on healthcare, but our coverage is less, and we don't live as long.
If we could make our system as efficient as Canada's, we'd spend less and everyone would have coverage.
Unfortunately, the Democrat's plans seem to be extending our existing bloated system to cover more people.
And the Republicans will occasionally give lip service to healthcare costs, but don't seem interested in acting on it.

	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231522</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231090</id>
	<title>I voted against the neocons</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266862200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Here's why I didn't vote for John McCain: In 2008, a rawther imperialist ideology called "neoconservatism" ruled the GOP, and sticking with the GOP would have led to spending more money on foreign wars for oil. There were suggestions that neocon "defense" spending would eventually cost tax-paying Americans <em>more</em> than starting a savings account and buying high-deductible individual health insurance. The "tea party" movement against government spending in general didn't start until <em>after</em> President Obama took office.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Here 's why I did n't vote for John McCain : In 2008 , a rawther imperialist ideology called " neoconservatism " ruled the GOP , and sticking with the GOP would have led to spending more money on foreign wars for oil .
There were suggestions that neocon " defense " spending would eventually cost tax-paying Americans more than starting a savings account and buying high-deductible individual health insurance .
The " tea party " movement against government spending in general did n't start until after President Obama took office .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here's why I didn't vote for John McCain: In 2008, a rawther imperialist ideology called "neoconservatism" ruled the GOP, and sticking with the GOP would have led to spending more money on foreign wars for oil.
There were suggestions that neocon "defense" spending would eventually cost tax-paying Americans more than starting a savings account and buying high-deductible individual health insurance.
The "tea party" movement against government spending in general didn't start until after President Obama took office.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230694</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233726</id>
	<title>Shop around</title>
	<author>mu51c10rd</author>
	<datestamp>1266870300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You can try a site like <a href="https://www.ehealthinsurance.com/" title="ehealthinsurance.com">ehealthinsurance</a> [ehealthinsurance.com] and shop various plans. The two most important parts are to know what type of coverage you want, and then to shop around.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You can try a site like ehealthinsurance [ ehealthinsurance.com ] and shop various plans .
The two most important parts are to know what type of coverage you want , and then to shop around .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You can try a site like ehealthinsurance [ehealthinsurance.com] and shop various plans.
The two most important parts are to know what type of coverage you want, and then to shop around.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233018</id>
	<title>Depends on quite a few things</title>
	<author>FartKnockerz</author>
	<datestamp>1266867780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As always YMMV; and this is coming from an American perspective. If you are in Europe or the rest of the civilized world, I envy you..</p><p>I have ran my own company for the last five years after I had got married and started a family. At the time, my wife carried the insurance and it was never a problem being joint on her health care insurance. However, that being said, she worked for HUMANA at the time and we had reasonable coverage for a reasonable price.</p><p>About six months ago, she left HUMANA to start her own company as well. We knew that it would cause a lapse in our coverage and agreed to plow ahead.</p><p>Boy were we stupid!</p><p>I signed up for a small business group coverage plan through The Hardford who had subcontracted out their health care insurance to United Health Care. The premiums, while not outrageous were definately on the higher end of the spectrum from what I was expecting (complete coverage for two adults in their early-thirties -- at $675 a month). Things progressed along and we went to our normal amount of doctors visits and trips to the Pharmacy. My wife takes one maintenance medication for Thyroid problems (synthroid), and I take a blood pressure medication (Mycardis). Not exactly a high-risk category and not exactly what I would say was a 'strain on the system'.</p><p>Then, one doctors visit I needed to get an EKG (it was routine; I won't go into the specifics here). No diagnosis was made that wasn't already known, and no<em> <strong>new</strong> </em> ICD-9 codes were submitted to United Health Care that hadn't already previously been submitted.</p><p>I received a letter in the mail from United Health Care a month later stating that they were dropping our coverage because although the physician did not see or diagnose any new health issues, the &quot;patient review physician&quot; had requested a copy of the EKG and had made a diagnosis <em> <strong>outside</strong> </em> of my physicians that I was now a 'high-risk' patient and should expect to be a walking-time bomb in regards to claims for United in the next year.</p><p>After loosing our coverage through United, I received our &quot;Certificate of Prior Coverage&quot; and started shopping for a new policy. Only to find out that everyone I contacted would now not touch our family with a twenty foot pole. I was rejected from countless other insurance companies, and as it stands right now my wife and I are currently uninsured.</p><p>Now, my wife is a social worker and very well versed at finding coverage information and programs for uninsured or under-insured patients..</p><p>We still as of yet have any coverage.</p><p>Caveat Emptor my friend. The health care system in the United States blows monkey chunks.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As always YMMV ; and this is coming from an American perspective .
If you are in Europe or the rest of the civilized world , I envy you..I have ran my own company for the last five years after I had got married and started a family .
At the time , my wife carried the insurance and it was never a problem being joint on her health care insurance .
However , that being said , she worked for HUMANA at the time and we had reasonable coverage for a reasonable price.About six months ago , she left HUMANA to start her own company as well .
We knew that it would cause a lapse in our coverage and agreed to plow ahead.Boy were we stupid ! I signed up for a small business group coverage plan through The Hardford who had subcontracted out their health care insurance to United Health Care .
The premiums , while not outrageous were definately on the higher end of the spectrum from what I was expecting ( complete coverage for two adults in their early-thirties -- at $ 675 a month ) .
Things progressed along and we went to our normal amount of doctors visits and trips to the Pharmacy .
My wife takes one maintenance medication for Thyroid problems ( synthroid ) , and I take a blood pressure medication ( Mycardis ) .
Not exactly a high-risk category and not exactly what I would say was a 'strain on the system'.Then , one doctors visit I needed to get an EKG ( it was routine ; I wo n't go into the specifics here ) .
No diagnosis was made that was n't already known , and no new ICD-9 codes were submitted to United Health Care that had n't already previously been submitted.I received a letter in the mail from United Health Care a month later stating that they were dropping our coverage because although the physician did not see or diagnose any new health issues , the " patient review physician " had requested a copy of the EKG and had made a diagnosis outside of my physicians that I was now a 'high-risk ' patient and should expect to be a walking-time bomb in regards to claims for United in the next year.After loosing our coverage through United , I received our " Certificate of Prior Coverage " and started shopping for a new policy .
Only to find out that everyone I contacted would now not touch our family with a twenty foot pole .
I was rejected from countless other insurance companies , and as it stands right now my wife and I are currently uninsured.Now , my wife is a social worker and very well versed at finding coverage information and programs for uninsured or under-insured patients..We still as of yet have any coverage.Caveat Emptor my friend .
The health care system in the United States blows monkey chunks .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As always YMMV; and this is coming from an American perspective.
If you are in Europe or the rest of the civilized world, I envy you..I have ran my own company for the last five years after I had got married and started a family.
At the time, my wife carried the insurance and it was never a problem being joint on her health care insurance.
However, that being said, she worked for HUMANA at the time and we had reasonable coverage for a reasonable price.About six months ago, she left HUMANA to start her own company as well.
We knew that it would cause a lapse in our coverage and agreed to plow ahead.Boy were we stupid!I signed up for a small business group coverage plan through The Hardford who had subcontracted out their health care insurance to United Health Care.
The premiums, while not outrageous were definately on the higher end of the spectrum from what I was expecting (complete coverage for two adults in their early-thirties -- at $675 a month).
Things progressed along and we went to our normal amount of doctors visits and trips to the Pharmacy.
My wife takes one maintenance medication for Thyroid problems (synthroid), and I take a blood pressure medication (Mycardis).
Not exactly a high-risk category and not exactly what I would say was a 'strain on the system'.Then, one doctors visit I needed to get an EKG (it was routine; I won't go into the specifics here).
No diagnosis was made that wasn't already known, and no new  ICD-9 codes were submitted to United Health Care that hadn't already previously been submitted.I received a letter in the mail from United Health Care a month later stating that they were dropping our coverage because although the physician did not see or diagnose any new health issues, the "patient review physician" had requested a copy of the EKG and had made a diagnosis  outside  of my physicians that I was now a 'high-risk' patient and should expect to be a walking-time bomb in regards to claims for United in the next year.After loosing our coverage through United, I received our "Certificate of Prior Coverage" and started shopping for a new policy.
Only to find out that everyone I contacted would now not touch our family with a twenty foot pole.
I was rejected from countless other insurance companies, and as it stands right now my wife and I are currently uninsured.Now, my wife is a social worker and very well versed at finding coverage information and programs for uninsured or under-insured patients..We still as of yet have any coverage.Caveat Emptor my friend.
The health care system in the United States blows monkey chunks.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233132</id>
	<title>Options</title>
	<author>thePowerOfGrayskull</author>
	<datestamp>1266868260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Look into various small business associations.  Look local to your area and nationally - my understanding is that when they are representing a coallition of small business, they often negotiate larger group rates for their participants.  Here are a couple of places to start for the national scene:
<a href="http://www.nase.org/Home.aspx" title="nase.org">NASE</a> [nase.org] and NBA</htmltext>
<tokenext>Look into various small business associations .
Look local to your area and nationally - my understanding is that when they are representing a coallition of small business , they often negotiate larger group rates for their participants .
Here are a couple of places to start for the national scene : NASE [ nase.org ] and NBA</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Look into various small business associations.
Look local to your area and nationally - my understanding is that when they are representing a coallition of small business, they often negotiate larger group rates for their participants.
Here are a couple of places to start for the national scene:
NASE [nase.org] and NBA</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230824</id>
	<title>Health Cover</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266861540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Move to UK get covered by the NHS</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Move to UK get covered by the NHS</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Move to UK get covered by the NHS</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231448</id>
	<title>Re:Just forget paying</title>
	<author>Duradin</author>
	<datestamp>1266862980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Lemme guess, you've always been that average, healthy, person.</p><p>And while a person may not have personally used the money spent to cover them it is used within the pool of which they are a part. Which is sorta the "ideal" idea of insurance. Greed/capitalism (sorry for the repetition) has corrupted that just a bit.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Lem me guess , you 've always been that average , healthy , person.And while a person may not have personally used the money spent to cover them it is used within the pool of which they are a part .
Which is sorta the " ideal " idea of insurance .
Greed/capitalism ( sorry for the repetition ) has corrupted that just a bit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Lemme guess, you've always been that average, healthy, person.And while a person may not have personally used the money spent to cover them it is used within the pool of which they are a part.
Which is sorta the "ideal" idea of insurance.
Greed/capitalism (sorry for the repetition) has corrupted that just a bit.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230848</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31264404</id>
	<title>Same here, but I skipped the HSA part</title>
	<author>Brian Stretch</author>
	<datestamp>1265104800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I bought an individual catastrophic health insurance plan from Assurant Health via my local State Farm agent.  $5K deductible, the maximum they offer.  I didn't bother with the HSA part.  I pay under $1500/year.  The really good part is that any work done in a hospital is covered in full, which I've made use of a few times so far.  Everything else, I pay cash and see whoever I want.  For oddball stuff like vision therapy (if you think you have ADD, look up Convergence Insufficiency and get tested) it's great to not have to explain to some bureaucrat what it is and get them to pretend to pay for my health care.</p><p>It's scary how conditioned people have become to having a third party (pretend to) pay for their health care.  Most of the time when I try to convince people that they'd be better off under a catastrophic/HSA plan they just can't grok it.</p><p>The refundable tax credit plan that McCain proposed would have paired perfectly with catastrophic/HSA plans.  Unfortunately our President spent $40M on attack ads against that proposal, telling people that it'd tax their health insurance... which was true, if you had a really expensive "Cadillac" plan that cost more than the tax credit was worth, "Cadillac" plans which Obama is now proposing to tax...</p><p>Whole Foods Market provides this type of insurance to their workers:<br><a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204251404574342170072865070.html" title="wsj.com">The Whole Foods Alternative to ObamaCare</a> [wsj.com]</p><p>Unfortunately the socialists reacted badly to his audacity to state facts that run counter to the Democratic Party line so he got into a bit of trouble.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I bought an individual catastrophic health insurance plan from Assurant Health via my local State Farm agent .
$ 5K deductible , the maximum they offer .
I did n't bother with the HSA part .
I pay under $ 1500/year .
The really good part is that any work done in a hospital is covered in full , which I 've made use of a few times so far .
Everything else , I pay cash and see whoever I want .
For oddball stuff like vision therapy ( if you think you have ADD , look up Convergence Insufficiency and get tested ) it 's great to not have to explain to some bureaucrat what it is and get them to pretend to pay for my health care.It 's scary how conditioned people have become to having a third party ( pretend to ) pay for their health care .
Most of the time when I try to convince people that they 'd be better off under a catastrophic/HSA plan they just ca n't grok it.The refundable tax credit plan that McCain proposed would have paired perfectly with catastrophic/HSA plans .
Unfortunately our President spent $ 40M on attack ads against that proposal , telling people that it 'd tax their health insurance... which was true , if you had a really expensive " Cadillac " plan that cost more than the tax credit was worth , " Cadillac " plans which Obama is now proposing to tax...Whole Foods Market provides this type of insurance to their workers : The Whole Foods Alternative to ObamaCare [ wsj.com ] Unfortunately the socialists reacted badly to his audacity to state facts that run counter to the Democratic Party line so he got into a bit of trouble .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I bought an individual catastrophic health insurance plan from Assurant Health via my local State Farm agent.
$5K deductible, the maximum they offer.
I didn't bother with the HSA part.
I pay under $1500/year.
The really good part is that any work done in a hospital is covered in full, which I've made use of a few times so far.
Everything else, I pay cash and see whoever I want.
For oddball stuff like vision therapy (if you think you have ADD, look up Convergence Insufficiency and get tested) it's great to not have to explain to some bureaucrat what it is and get them to pretend to pay for my health care.It's scary how conditioned people have become to having a third party (pretend to) pay for their health care.
Most of the time when I try to convince people that they'd be better off under a catastrophic/HSA plan they just can't grok it.The refundable tax credit plan that McCain proposed would have paired perfectly with catastrophic/HSA plans.
Unfortunately our President spent $40M on attack ads against that proposal, telling people that it'd tax their health insurance... which was true, if you had a really expensive "Cadillac" plan that cost more than the tax credit was worth, "Cadillac" plans which Obama is now proposing to tax...Whole Foods Market provides this type of insurance to their workers:The Whole Foods Alternative to ObamaCare [wsj.com]Unfortunately the socialists reacted badly to his audacity to state facts that run counter to the Democratic Party line so he got into a bit of trouble.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231412</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231870</id>
	<title>Kaiser</title>
	<author>Chad Lester</author>
	<datestamp>1266864060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Actually, I'm in the same situation.   From what I found, the situation varies drastically from state to state - if you're willing to move, you should really consider that.
<p>
In California (and a handful of other states), <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser\_Permanente" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">Kaiser Permanente</a> [wikipedia.org] offers pretty reasonable rates if you and your family are young, healthy and have always been healthy.   Even something like childhood asthma can make you ineligible..   I'm insuring my family of 4 for about $600 per month with a maximum annual deductible of $7000 and no lifetime cap.   Rates are higher if you can't risk that high of an annual deductible.
</p><p>
If you have a prior condition, it's nearly impossible to get insurance on your own.  I have friends trying to set up a group plan and it's taken over a year to get going.
</p><p>
Also, keep in mind that if you or anyone in your family does get sick, you may not be able to leave the state and keep your plan, so pick a state that has good insurance rates available, will not drop you if you get sick and that you are willing to live in long term if you do get sick.
</p><p>
If you or any family member are or has been sick, you may want to look for states that have implemented some form of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community\_rating" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">community rating</a> [wikipedia.org].   You may want to look for states that have guaranteed issue.
</p><p>
Good luck.
</p><p>
I'd love to here if anyone has done any serious research into Medical Tourism options.   It may be cheaper to drive to Mexico for antibiotics when you think you need them and pay out of pocket or use a free clinic for basic things and then have some cash in the bank in case you get really sick - but I don't know of anyone whose actually done that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Actually , I 'm in the same situation .
From what I found , the situation varies drastically from state to state - if you 're willing to move , you should really consider that .
In California ( and a handful of other states ) , Kaiser Permanente [ wikipedia.org ] offers pretty reasonable rates if you and your family are young , healthy and have always been healthy .
Even something like childhood asthma can make you ineligible.. I 'm insuring my family of 4 for about $ 600 per month with a maximum annual deductible of $ 7000 and no lifetime cap .
Rates are higher if you ca n't risk that high of an annual deductible .
If you have a prior condition , it 's nearly impossible to get insurance on your own .
I have friends trying to set up a group plan and it 's taken over a year to get going .
Also , keep in mind that if you or anyone in your family does get sick , you may not be able to leave the state and keep your plan , so pick a state that has good insurance rates available , will not drop you if you get sick and that you are willing to live in long term if you do get sick .
If you or any family member are or has been sick , you may want to look for states that have implemented some form of community rating [ wikipedia.org ] .
You may want to look for states that have guaranteed issue .
Good luck .
I 'd love to here if anyone has done any serious research into Medical Tourism options .
It may be cheaper to drive to Mexico for antibiotics when you think you need them and pay out of pocket or use a free clinic for basic things and then have some cash in the bank in case you get really sick - but I do n't know of anyone whose actually done that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Actually, I'm in the same situation.
From what I found, the situation varies drastically from state to state - if you're willing to move, you should really consider that.
In California (and a handful of other states), Kaiser Permanente [wikipedia.org] offers pretty reasonable rates if you and your family are young, healthy and have always been healthy.
Even something like childhood asthma can make you ineligible..   I'm insuring my family of 4 for about $600 per month with a maximum annual deductible of $7000 and no lifetime cap.
Rates are higher if you can't risk that high of an annual deductible.
If you have a prior condition, it's nearly impossible to get insurance on your own.
I have friends trying to set up a group plan and it's taken over a year to get going.
Also, keep in mind that if you or anyone in your family does get sick, you may not be able to leave the state and keep your plan, so pick a state that has good insurance rates available, will not drop you if you get sick and that you are willing to live in long term if you do get sick.
If you or any family member are or has been sick, you may want to look for states that have implemented some form of community rating [wikipedia.org].
You may want to look for states that have guaranteed issue.
Good luck.
I'd love to here if anyone has done any serious research into Medical Tourism options.
It may be cheaper to drive to Mexico for antibiotics when you think you need them and pay out of pocket or use a free clinic for basic things and then have some cash in the bank in case you get really sick - but I don't know of anyone whose actually done that.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231736</id>
	<title>Re:Just forget paying</title>
	<author>fahrbot-bot</author>
	<datestamp>1266863700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>The extra money you save can be put into a money market account to collect interest in case something large comes up.</p></div>
</blockquote><p>
Good luck with that.
</p><p>
My wife died of a brain tumor four years ago.  The list price for a <b>one</b> month supply of her chemotherapy drug, Temodar, was $11,000 - yes Eleven Thousand dollars.  Luckily the co-pay with her HMO (Optima) was only $40 - yes Forty dollars.  BTW, I had BCBS at the time for myself and that co-pay would have been 10\%.
</p><p>
The total list price for her treatment in the seven weeks from diagnosis to death was almost $300,000, but we only paid about $300 out of pocket.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The extra money you save can be put into a money market account to collect interest in case something large comes up .
Good luck with that .
My wife died of a brain tumor four years ago .
The list price for a one month supply of her chemotherapy drug , Temodar , was $ 11,000 - yes Eleven Thousand dollars .
Luckily the co-pay with her HMO ( Optima ) was only $ 40 - yes Forty dollars .
BTW , I had BCBS at the time for myself and that co-pay would have been 10 \ % .
The total list price for her treatment in the seven weeks from diagnosis to death was almost $ 300,000 , but we only paid about $ 300 out of pocket .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The extra money you save can be put into a money market account to collect interest in case something large comes up.
Good luck with that.
My wife died of a brain tumor four years ago.
The list price for a one month supply of her chemotherapy drug, Temodar, was $11,000 - yes Eleven Thousand dollars.
Luckily the co-pay with her HMO (Optima) was only $40 - yes Forty dollars.
BTW, I had BCBS at the time for myself and that co-pay would have been 10\%.
The total list price for her treatment in the seven weeks from diagnosis to death was almost $300,000, but we only paid about $300 out of pocket.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230848</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31234764</id>
	<title>Or another question.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266830160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>When did employee benefits such as health care become the norm? Instead of everybody purchasing their own? If everybody always purchased their own, do you believe the market would support such prices? I suspect they became the norm after some gov't legislation. Probably a bill "fixing" a problem that didn't exist.</htmltext>
<tokenext>When did employee benefits such as health care become the norm ?
Instead of everybody purchasing their own ?
If everybody always purchased their own , do you believe the market would support such prices ?
I suspect they became the norm after some gov't legislation .
Probably a bill " fixing " a problem that did n't exist .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When did employee benefits such as health care become the norm?
Instead of everybody purchasing their own?
If everybody always purchased their own, do you believe the market would support such prices?
I suspect they became the norm after some gov't legislation.
Probably a bill "fixing" a problem that didn't exist.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230838</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232358</id>
	<title>Re:doesn't that make you boiling mad?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266865500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you work for the government (ie military, Senate etc), you have no problem.<br>Then you get socialized health care, which many of the same people who have it, say is bad for you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you work for the government ( ie military , Senate etc ) , you have no problem.Then you get socialized health care , which many of the same people who have it , say is bad for you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you work for the government (ie military, Senate etc), you have no problem.Then you get socialized health care, which many of the same people who have it, say is bad for you.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230810</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31250846</id>
	<title>Re:Be methodical</title>
	<author>natehoy</author>
	<datestamp>1266921420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>While I agree, to be fair - you could have received continuous coverage by buying into COBRA plan, which would have given you continuous coverage (assuming you were in a state where continuous coverage meant an "automatic out" from pre-existing conditions).</p><p>Of course, COBRA is expensive, but it's a good "insurance that you'll be able to get insurance"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>While I agree , to be fair - you could have received continuous coverage by buying into COBRA plan , which would have given you continuous coverage ( assuming you were in a state where continuous coverage meant an " automatic out " from pre-existing conditions ) .Of course , COBRA is expensive , but it 's a good " insurance that you 'll be able to get insurance "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While I agree, to be fair - you could have received continuous coverage by buying into COBRA plan, which would have given you continuous coverage (assuming you were in a state where continuous coverage meant an "automatic out" from pre-existing conditions).Of course, COBRA is expensive, but it's a good "insurance that you'll be able to get insurance"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231332</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233306</id>
	<title>What I did</title>
	<author>I8pumpkinpie</author>
	<datestamp>1266868980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>loads of bitching going on here, certainly justified. Health Care costs in the US are very high.
meanwhile, the OP is asking for input.

I compared costs for individual plans here:
<a href="http://www.ehealthinsurance.com/" title="ehealthinsurance.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.ehealthinsurance.com/</a> [ehealthinsurance.com]
and my local chamber of commerce.
then went with a plan from ehealthinsurance, read all of the fine print, made sure that I understood it all (a few phone calls were needed). It was tedious as hell, but like any of the programmers and engineers out there can tell you about a complex problem.... you have to resign yourself to sorting it out and identifying the variables, prioritizing what is important, then make an action plan to solve the problem.

I am an individual, in good health, income is OK, so I set my deductible at $2500 and max out of pocket at $5k/year, $20 copay on visits. I pay about $210 per month.

I know for sure that I am screwed if something heavy (cancer, spinal injury, etc...) comes along, but I had good experience with the plan 2 years ago when I got all busted up in a crash and needed mri and loads of xray and some pt. no complaints.

hope that helps.</htmltext>
<tokenext>loads of bitching going on here , certainly justified .
Health Care costs in the US are very high .
meanwhile , the OP is asking for input .
I compared costs for individual plans here : http : //www.ehealthinsurance.com/ [ ehealthinsurance.com ] and my local chamber of commerce .
then went with a plan from ehealthinsurance , read all of the fine print , made sure that I understood it all ( a few phone calls were needed ) .
It was tedious as hell , but like any of the programmers and engineers out there can tell you about a complex problem.... you have to resign yourself to sorting it out and identifying the variables , prioritizing what is important , then make an action plan to solve the problem .
I am an individual , in good health , income is OK , so I set my deductible at $ 2500 and max out of pocket at $ 5k/year , $ 20 copay on visits .
I pay about $ 210 per month .
I know for sure that I am screwed if something heavy ( cancer , spinal injury , etc... ) comes along , but I had good experience with the plan 2 years ago when I got all busted up in a crash and needed mri and loads of xray and some pt .
no complaints .
hope that helps .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>loads of bitching going on here, certainly justified.
Health Care costs in the US are very high.
meanwhile, the OP is asking for input.
I compared costs for individual plans here:
http://www.ehealthinsurance.com/ [ehealthinsurance.com]
and my local chamber of commerce.
then went with a plan from ehealthinsurance, read all of the fine print, made sure that I understood it all (a few phone calls were needed).
It was tedious as hell, but like any of the programmers and engineers out there can tell you about a complex problem.... you have to resign yourself to sorting it out and identifying the variables, prioritizing what is important, then make an action plan to solve the problem.
I am an individual, in good health, income is OK, so I set my deductible at $2500 and max out of pocket at $5k/year, $20 copay on visits.
I pay about $210 per month.
I know for sure that I am screwed if something heavy (cancer, spinal injury, etc...) comes along, but I had good experience with the plan 2 years ago when I got all busted up in a crash and needed mri and loads of xray and some pt.
no complaints.
hope that helps.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231598</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Fnkmaster</author>
	<datestamp>1266863340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Okay, so your point is a family of four's total cost to the system is about $1600 per month in Canada.  That's about $400 per person.  In 2009, US healthcare spending was about $8300 per person per year, or about $33,200 for a family of four, or about $2770 a month.  So we're still spending about 73\% more per capita (and clearly don't get 73\% better results than Canada).</p><p>The average health insurance plan in the US has increased to almost $5000 for an individual (<a href="http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/health/2009-09-15-insurance-costs\_N.htm" title="usatoday.com">see this article, for example</a> [usatoday.com]), approximately doubling over the last 9 years, while average deductibles and out of pocket expenses have increased massively as well.</p><p>And while Canada's income tax rates are modestly higher than in the US, I don't think the difference is particularly startling - see, for example, the chart <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation\_in\_Canada#Income\_taxes" title="wikipedia.org">here</a> [wikipedia.org].</p><p>And the studies seem to indicate that the quality of health care in Canada is at least as good as that provided in the US <a href="http://www.pnhp.org/PDF\_files/ReviewUSCanadaOpenMedicine.pdf" title="pnhp.org">as in this study</a> [pnhp.org].</p><p>None of this is exhaustive, and I agree with your point that the OP was comparing apples and oranges, but it doesn't take rocket science to conclude that Canada's health care system is significantly more efficient than the US system at providing health care, and that their system works far better for the average taxpaying citizen than our system here in the US.</p><p>Oh, and some states are seeing 40-50\% premium increases for individual and small business health insurance plans for 2010.  Even mid-sized corporations are seeing rate hikes of 20-30\% for 2010 and being forced to make tough choices, cut workforce numbers, and move jobs overseas to remain competitive in the face of the drag on their bottom line that health insurance costs are creating.  All of this makes the comparison with countries like Canada that much less favorable.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Okay , so your point is a family of four 's total cost to the system is about $ 1600 per month in Canada .
That 's about $ 400 per person .
In 2009 , US healthcare spending was about $ 8300 per person per year , or about $ 33,200 for a family of four , or about $ 2770 a month .
So we 're still spending about 73 \ % more per capita ( and clearly do n't get 73 \ % better results than Canada ) .The average health insurance plan in the US has increased to almost $ 5000 for an individual ( see this article , for example [ usatoday.com ] ) , approximately doubling over the last 9 years , while average deductibles and out of pocket expenses have increased massively as well.And while Canada 's income tax rates are modestly higher than in the US , I do n't think the difference is particularly startling - see , for example , the chart here [ wikipedia.org ] .And the studies seem to indicate that the quality of health care in Canada is at least as good as that provided in the US as in this study [ pnhp.org ] .None of this is exhaustive , and I agree with your point that the OP was comparing apples and oranges , but it does n't take rocket science to conclude that Canada 's health care system is significantly more efficient than the US system at providing health care , and that their system works far better for the average taxpaying citizen than our system here in the US.Oh , and some states are seeing 40-50 \ % premium increases for individual and small business health insurance plans for 2010 .
Even mid-sized corporations are seeing rate hikes of 20-30 \ % for 2010 and being forced to make tough choices , cut workforce numbers , and move jobs overseas to remain competitive in the face of the drag on their bottom line that health insurance costs are creating .
All of this makes the comparison with countries like Canada that much less favorable .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Okay, so your point is a family of four's total cost to the system is about $1600 per month in Canada.
That's about $400 per person.
In 2009, US healthcare spending was about $8300 per person per year, or about $33,200 for a family of four, or about $2770 a month.
So we're still spending about 73\% more per capita (and clearly don't get 73\% better results than Canada).The average health insurance plan in the US has increased to almost $5000 for an individual (see this article, for example [usatoday.com]), approximately doubling over the last 9 years, while average deductibles and out of pocket expenses have increased massively as well.And while Canada's income tax rates are modestly higher than in the US, I don't think the difference is particularly startling - see, for example, the chart here [wikipedia.org].And the studies seem to indicate that the quality of health care in Canada is at least as good as that provided in the US as in this study [pnhp.org].None of this is exhaustive, and I agree with your point that the OP was comparing apples and oranges, but it doesn't take rocket science to conclude that Canada's health care system is significantly more efficient than the US system at providing health care, and that their system works far better for the average taxpaying citizen than our system here in the US.Oh, and some states are seeing 40-50\% premium increases for individual and small business health insurance plans for 2010.
Even mid-sized corporations are seeing rate hikes of 20-30\% for 2010 and being forced to make tough choices, cut workforce numbers, and move jobs overseas to remain competitive in the face of the drag on their bottom line that health insurance costs are creating.
All of this makes the comparison with countries like Canada that much less favorable.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230874</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232598</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>infinite9</author>
	<datestamp>1266866220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>To all those people out there who the republicans talk about, the ones who are perfectly happy with their current health insurance situation, I ask this:  If you were to lose your job because you can't work anymore due to health problems, how would your health care be paid?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>To all those people out there who the republicans talk about , the ones who are perfectly happy with their current health insurance situation , I ask this : If you were to lose your job because you ca n't work anymore due to health problems , how would your health care be paid ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To all those people out there who the republicans talk about, the ones who are perfectly happy with their current health insurance situation, I ask this:  If you were to lose your job because you can't work anymore due to health problems, how would your health care be paid?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231286</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231200</id>
	<title>here's a clue, it's not about politics</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266862440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you think it's better to "Ask Slashdot" than to "ask an insurance agent", you're not ready to be in business for yourself.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you think it 's better to " Ask Slashdot " than to " ask an insurance agent " , you 're not ready to be in business for yourself .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you think it's better to "Ask Slashdot" than to "ask an insurance agent", you're not ready to be in business for yourself.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31236006</id>
	<title>Go talk to an insurance broker in your state</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266833880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm self employed and I was turned down for several individual plans due to some minor pre-existing conditions. However, Colorado requires insurers to offer group plans to business groups of one or more. I have a company plan and the only person in it is me. I pay around $350/month to cover myself with a nice blue cross PPO. If I ever hire anybody, I'm all set to offer them insurance at an OK rate.</p><p>Also, you can take the expensive COBRA route for about 18 months (maybe a year?).</p><p>Go ask an expert in your state.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm self employed and I was turned down for several individual plans due to some minor pre-existing conditions .
However , Colorado requires insurers to offer group plans to business groups of one or more .
I have a company plan and the only person in it is me .
I pay around $ 350/month to cover myself with a nice blue cross PPO .
If I ever hire anybody , I 'm all set to offer them insurance at an OK rate.Also , you can take the expensive COBRA route for about 18 months ( maybe a year ?
) .Go ask an expert in your state .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm self employed and I was turned down for several individual plans due to some minor pre-existing conditions.
However, Colorado requires insurers to offer group plans to business groups of one or more.
I have a company plan and the only person in it is me.
I pay around $350/month to cover myself with a nice blue cross PPO.
If I ever hire anybody, I'm all set to offer them insurance at an OK rate.Also, you can take the expensive COBRA route for about 18 months (maybe a year?
).Go ask an expert in your state.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31239736</id>
	<title>Small business group insurance</title>
	<author>punker</author>
	<datestamp>1266851520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I set up shop for myself, and found myself in the same position. My wife assists me in my business, which gives us two employees (actually general partners the way the business is setup). As a two employee company, we could apply for group insurance. The insurance broker I work with handles alot of the interactions for me. I was able to get a good price compared to an individual plan (about 30\% cheaper) and with better benefits. I would suggest doing the same. Some insurers (Aetna) may make you put money upfront to get underwritten, but a good broker should be able to let you know if that's worth doing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I set up shop for myself , and found myself in the same position .
My wife assists me in my business , which gives us two employees ( actually general partners the way the business is setup ) .
As a two employee company , we could apply for group insurance .
The insurance broker I work with handles alot of the interactions for me .
I was able to get a good price compared to an individual plan ( about 30 \ % cheaper ) and with better benefits .
I would suggest doing the same .
Some insurers ( Aetna ) may make you put money upfront to get underwritten , but a good broker should be able to let you know if that 's worth doing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I set up shop for myself, and found myself in the same position.
My wife assists me in my business, which gives us two employees (actually general partners the way the business is setup).
As a two employee company, we could apply for group insurance.
The insurance broker I work with handles alot of the interactions for me.
I was able to get a good price compared to an individual plan (about 30\% cheaper) and with better benefits.
I would suggest doing the same.
Some insurers (Aetna) may make you put money upfront to get underwritten, but a good broker should be able to let you know if that's worth doing.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231862</id>
	<title>Re:Just forget paying</title>
	<author>hawguy</author>
	<datestamp>1266864060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
Except that insurance is there to cover catastrophic health care costs. Better to buy a plan with the highest deductable you can find (that still offers reasonable lifetime maximums) and then just plan on paying expenses out of pocket, never reaching the deductable. But the insurance is still there to protect you for major illnesses.
</p><p>
Otherwise, a major medical event can bankrupt you and your family. If you have a "simple" heart attack and need open heart surgery, figure $250K for the emergency room visit, ICU, dianostics, surgery, and followups.
</p><p>Even if you're healthy, if you're walking down the street and get run over by a hit-and-run driver, you can easily rack up hundreds of thousands of dollars in costs. Each day in the ICU alone can cost $3000 -- so each week in ICU can cost you over $20,000.
</p><p>
If you don't have any real assets anyway, then perhaps it's easier to go without insurance, but I don't want my family to lose our house and other assets if I go into the hospitcal just because I wanted to save a few thousand dollars a year.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Except that insurance is there to cover catastrophic health care costs .
Better to buy a plan with the highest deductable you can find ( that still offers reasonable lifetime maximums ) and then just plan on paying expenses out of pocket , never reaching the deductable .
But the insurance is still there to protect you for major illnesses .
Otherwise , a major medical event can bankrupt you and your family .
If you have a " simple " heart attack and need open heart surgery , figure $ 250K for the emergency room visit , ICU , dianostics , surgery , and followups .
Even if you 're healthy , if you 're walking down the street and get run over by a hit-and-run driver , you can easily rack up hundreds of thousands of dollars in costs .
Each day in the ICU alone can cost $ 3000 -- so each week in ICU can cost you over $ 20,000 .
If you do n't have any real assets anyway , then perhaps it 's easier to go without insurance , but I do n't want my family to lose our house and other assets if I go into the hospitcal just because I wanted to save a few thousand dollars a year .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
Except that insurance is there to cover catastrophic health care costs.
Better to buy a plan with the highest deductable you can find (that still offers reasonable lifetime maximums) and then just plan on paying expenses out of pocket, never reaching the deductable.
But the insurance is still there to protect you for major illnesses.
Otherwise, a major medical event can bankrupt you and your family.
If you have a "simple" heart attack and need open heart surgery, figure $250K for the emergency room visit, ICU, dianostics, surgery, and followups.
Even if you're healthy, if you're walking down the street and get run over by a hit-and-run driver, you can easily rack up hundreds of thousands of dollars in costs.
Each day in the ICU alone can cost $3000 -- so each week in ICU can cost you over $20,000.
If you don't have any real assets anyway, then perhaps it's easier to go without insurance, but I don't want my family to lose our house and other assets if I go into the hospitcal just because I wanted to save a few thousand dollars a year.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230848</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31236608</id>
	<title>Re:Facts.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266835800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have to agree. It's something I don't understand it either, coming from the UK and now living in Canada for quite some time.</p><p>In a country where over 45 million people have no insurance at all, to do nothing is criminal. To hear of people going to the poor-house due to the lack of coverage for 'pre-existing conditions' or getting denied possible life-saving therapies seems immoral to me. It seems to me that most government policy in the US is controlled by highly paid, corporation controlled lobby groups, and 'We The People..' get it in the shorts again and again and again. Both US political parties seem to me to be more or less the same - GS still continues to give out huge bonuses even after your government bails them out - seem like the 'old boys network' continues to thrive unabated, people continue to suffer due to lack of care and insurance, the body count continues in Iraq, and any outrage people feel goes mostly unnoticed....I find it endlessly puzzling. Instead you have 'tea parties' over ridiculous issues...Seem like an empire in a steep decline to me.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have to agree .
It 's something I do n't understand it either , coming from the UK and now living in Canada for quite some time.In a country where over 45 million people have no insurance at all , to do nothing is criminal .
To hear of people going to the poor-house due to the lack of coverage for 'pre-existing conditions ' or getting denied possible life-saving therapies seems immoral to me .
It seems to me that most government policy in the US is controlled by highly paid , corporation controlled lobby groups , and 'We The People.. ' get it in the shorts again and again and again .
Both US political parties seem to me to be more or less the same - GS still continues to give out huge bonuses even after your government bails them out - seem like the 'old boys network ' continues to thrive unabated , people continue to suffer due to lack of care and insurance , the body count continues in Iraq , and any outrage people feel goes mostly unnoticed....I find it endlessly puzzling .
Instead you have 'tea parties ' over ridiculous issues...Seem like an empire in a steep decline to me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have to agree.
It's something I don't understand it either, coming from the UK and now living in Canada for quite some time.In a country where over 45 million people have no insurance at all, to do nothing is criminal.
To hear of people going to the poor-house due to the lack of coverage for 'pre-existing conditions' or getting denied possible life-saving therapies seems immoral to me.
It seems to me that most government policy in the US is controlled by highly paid, corporation controlled lobby groups, and 'We The People..' get it in the shorts again and again and again.
Both US political parties seem to me to be more or less the same - GS still continues to give out huge bonuses even after your government bails them out - seem like the 'old boys network' continues to thrive unabated, people continue to suffer due to lack of care and insurance, the body count continues in Iraq, and any outrage people feel goes mostly unnoticed....I find it endlessly puzzling.
Instead you have 'tea parties' over ridiculous issues...Seem like an empire in a steep decline to me.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231000</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232256</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>TheLink</author>
	<datestamp>1266865140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>They might still be smiling since they'll get their face fixed for less than it will cost you after they smash your face in retaliation.</p><p>Compare how much the US is spending per person with the other countries:</p><p><a href="http://www.forbes.com/2009/07/02/health-care-costs-opinions-columnists-reform.html" title="forbes.com">http://www.forbes.com/2009/07/02/health-care-costs-opinions-columnists-reform.html</a> [forbes.com]<br><a href="http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/chcm010307oth.cfm" title="kff.org">http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/chcm010307oth.cfm</a> [kff.org]<br><a href="http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea\_hea\_car\_fun\_tot\_per\_cap-care-funding-total-per-capita" title="nationmaster.com">http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea\_hea\_car\_fun\_tot\_per\_cap-care-funding-total-per-capita</a> [nationmaster.com]</p><p>And the average US citizen isn't getting better health care for all that spending.</p><p>That said, healthcare costs are increasing in many countries.</p><p>It's too easy for politicians to try to spend the money of future generations to win the votes of today's voters.</p><p>I think there should be a limit on how much public money each person gets for healthcare. A quota that depends on how rich the country is. Because as technology improves, there's going to be more and more things that can be done, but the costs for each "level" will increase way more than linearly[1].</p><p>Once you've used up your quota, you have to find the cash some other way (savings, donations, loans), maybe people should also be allowed to donate some of their quota to you if they want (subject to regulatory approval - to avoid abuse and swindling).</p><p>If you can't find enough money, too bad so sad, yes it's unfair that you have to die or stay crippled/sick, but it's also unfair to keep making everyone else pay for you past your allocated quota. And it means other people may get less as a result (which is also unfair).</p><p>Past a certain point, it becomes unfair to make others continue paying for you. Like it or not, the rest have done their fair share for you.</p><p>Some may ask, why should it be even fair for others to pay in the first place? I think it's fair to make people pay for the civilization they enjoy. To me it's uncivilized (and inefficient and crap) to have people sit in ER in order to get treatment, or even die needlessly from problems that are easily and cheaply avoided.</p><p>[1] Billionaires might be able to afford the best. Maybe in the near future there would be tech to grow replacement limbs from scratch - e.g. a batch of 1000 replacements grown, with the best one selected. A billionaire could pay for that. But a country is unlikely to be able to afford to do that for every person who wants that and still be able to provide other healthcare to others, at least not for a long time. So on the "public money" plan in a rich country, you'd just get a high tech prosthetic.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>They might still be smiling since they 'll get their face fixed for less than it will cost you after they smash your face in retaliation.Compare how much the US is spending per person with the other countries : http : //www.forbes.com/2009/07/02/health-care-costs-opinions-columnists-reform.html [ forbes.com ] http : //www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/chcm010307oth.cfm [ kff.org ] http : //www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea \ _hea \ _car \ _fun \ _tot \ _per \ _cap-care-funding-total-per-capita [ nationmaster.com ] And the average US citizen is n't getting better health care for all that spending.That said , healthcare costs are increasing in many countries.It 's too easy for politicians to try to spend the money of future generations to win the votes of today 's voters.I think there should be a limit on how much public money each person gets for healthcare .
A quota that depends on how rich the country is .
Because as technology improves , there 's going to be more and more things that can be done , but the costs for each " level " will increase way more than linearly [ 1 ] .Once you 've used up your quota , you have to find the cash some other way ( savings , donations , loans ) , maybe people should also be allowed to donate some of their quota to you if they want ( subject to regulatory approval - to avoid abuse and swindling ) .If you ca n't find enough money , too bad so sad , yes it 's unfair that you have to die or stay crippled/sick , but it 's also unfair to keep making everyone else pay for you past your allocated quota .
And it means other people may get less as a result ( which is also unfair ) .Past a certain point , it becomes unfair to make others continue paying for you .
Like it or not , the rest have done their fair share for you.Some may ask , why should it be even fair for others to pay in the first place ?
I think it 's fair to make people pay for the civilization they enjoy .
To me it 's uncivilized ( and inefficient and crap ) to have people sit in ER in order to get treatment , or even die needlessly from problems that are easily and cheaply avoided .
[ 1 ] Billionaires might be able to afford the best .
Maybe in the near future there would be tech to grow replacement limbs from scratch - e.g .
a batch of 1000 replacements grown , with the best one selected .
A billionaire could pay for that .
But a country is unlikely to be able to afford to do that for every person who wants that and still be able to provide other healthcare to others , at least not for a long time .
So on the " public money " plan in a rich country , you 'd just get a high tech prosthetic .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They might still be smiling since they'll get their face fixed for less than it will cost you after they smash your face in retaliation.Compare how much the US is spending per person with the other countries:http://www.forbes.com/2009/07/02/health-care-costs-opinions-columnists-reform.html [forbes.com]http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/chcm010307oth.cfm [kff.org]http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea\_hea\_car\_fun\_tot\_per\_cap-care-funding-total-per-capita [nationmaster.com]And the average US citizen isn't getting better health care for all that spending.That said, healthcare costs are increasing in many countries.It's too easy for politicians to try to spend the money of future generations to win the votes of today's voters.I think there should be a limit on how much public money each person gets for healthcare.
A quota that depends on how rich the country is.
Because as technology improves, there's going to be more and more things that can be done, but the costs for each "level" will increase way more than linearly[1].Once you've used up your quota, you have to find the cash some other way (savings, donations, loans), maybe people should also be allowed to donate some of their quota to you if they want (subject to regulatory approval - to avoid abuse and swindling).If you can't find enough money, too bad so sad, yes it's unfair that you have to die or stay crippled/sick, but it's also unfair to keep making everyone else pay for you past your allocated quota.
And it means other people may get less as a result (which is also unfair).Past a certain point, it becomes unfair to make others continue paying for you.
Like it or not, the rest have done their fair share for you.Some may ask, why should it be even fair for others to pay in the first place?
I think it's fair to make people pay for the civilization they enjoy.
To me it's uncivilized (and inefficient and crap) to have people sit in ER in order to get treatment, or even die needlessly from problems that are easily and cheaply avoided.
[1] Billionaires might be able to afford the best.
Maybe in the near future there would be tech to grow replacement limbs from scratch - e.g.
a batch of 1000 replacements grown, with the best one selected.
A billionaire could pay for that.
But a country is unlikely to be able to afford to do that for every person who wants that and still be able to provide other healthcare to others, at least not for a long time.
So on the "public money" plan in a rich country, you'd just get a high tech prosthetic.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230874</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233322</id>
	<title>Re:HSA</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266868980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>We had some employees that enjoyed the outdoors and got into a lot of accidents that raised the costs for everyone.</p></div></blockquote><p>
Rush, is that you?
<br> <br>
God forbid someone actually goes outside and enjoys Creation and gets exercise, sunlight, and socialization. How terrible it would be if insurance companies didn't get to drop plans for people that develop chronic illnesses from not getting exercise, sunlight, and socialization. Oh wait, it all makes sense now...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>We had some employees that enjoyed the outdoors and got into a lot of accidents that raised the costs for everyone .
Rush , is that you ?
God forbid someone actually goes outside and enjoys Creation and gets exercise , sunlight , and socialization .
How terrible it would be if insurance companies did n't get to drop plans for people that develop chronic illnesses from not getting exercise , sunlight , and socialization .
Oh wait , it all makes sense now.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We had some employees that enjoyed the outdoors and got into a lot of accidents that raised the costs for everyone.
Rush, is that you?
God forbid someone actually goes outside and enjoys Creation and gets exercise, sunlight, and socialization.
How terrible it would be if insurance companies didn't get to drop plans for people that develop chronic illnesses from not getting exercise, sunlight, and socialization.
Oh wait, it all makes sense now...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230888</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231302</id>
	<title>It can be done</title>
	<author>Jadeinfosy</author>
	<datestamp>1266862680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It is possible to get a fairly good plan through an association, either business of technical. The cost is higher than thru a company as there is no subsidy. The price will depend upon the size of the group and the quality of the plan. There are a number of insurance agents that specialize in this type of business.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It is possible to get a fairly good plan through an association , either business of technical .
The cost is higher than thru a company as there is no subsidy .
The price will depend upon the size of the group and the quality of the plan .
There are a number of insurance agents that specialize in this type of business .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is possible to get a fairly good plan through an association, either business of technical.
The cost is higher than thru a company as there is no subsidy.
The price will depend upon the size of the group and the quality of the plan.
There are a number of insurance agents that specialize in this type of business.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232214</id>
	<title>Consider an HSA.  And cost of business!</title>
	<author>phallstrom</author>
	<datestamp>1266865080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Two years ago I quit my job and bought health insurance.  Cost about $1200/mo for my family.  When I was looking around what I saw most were people complaining about how expensive it was.  Sure, it is, but the job I'd quit was paying about $2000/mo for me.   And while it might be expensive, simply factor it into the cost of running your own business -- just like *ANYTHING* else.  If it means you have to charge $10/hr more, then that's what it means.</p><p>Also, consider an HSA/catastrophic plan.  We switched recently to that, and even with two young kids, we end up spending less than we did for just our premiums before -- and when you get down to the nitty gritty horrible accident scenerio the coverage is pretty much the same -- well, don't get pregnant... that isn't covered.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Two years ago I quit my job and bought health insurance .
Cost about $ 1200/mo for my family .
When I was looking around what I saw most were people complaining about how expensive it was .
Sure , it is , but the job I 'd quit was paying about $ 2000/mo for me .
And while it might be expensive , simply factor it into the cost of running your own business -- just like * ANYTHING * else .
If it means you have to charge $ 10/hr more , then that 's what it means.Also , consider an HSA/catastrophic plan .
We switched recently to that , and even with two young kids , we end up spending less than we did for just our premiums before -- and when you get down to the nitty gritty horrible accident scenerio the coverage is pretty much the same -- well , do n't get pregnant... that is n't covered .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Two years ago I quit my job and bought health insurance.
Cost about $1200/mo for my family.
When I was looking around what I saw most were people complaining about how expensive it was.
Sure, it is, but the job I'd quit was paying about $2000/mo for me.
And while it might be expensive, simply factor it into the cost of running your own business -- just like *ANYTHING* else.
If it means you have to charge $10/hr more, then that's what it means.Also, consider an HSA/catastrophic plan.
We switched recently to that, and even with two young kids, we end up spending less than we did for just our premiums before -- and when you get down to the nitty gritty horrible accident scenerio the coverage is pretty much the same -- well, don't get pregnant... that isn't covered.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231328</id>
	<title>Individual plans aren't always *so* bad ....</title>
	<author>King\_TJ</author>
	<datestamp>1266862740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I actually still work full-time for an employer who has a unionized shop.  So even though I work in I.T., in their office, we qualify to join in on the union's health care program.  Nonetheless, it's still actually a little bit cheaper for me to opt out of their insurance and pay for my own with a Blue Choice PPO policy.  (The union's insurance plan sounds pretty good at first, until you read all the fine print and realize it has a "lifetime limit" hidden in it, which could really screw people over if they were in the hospital for cancer or something, and hit the limit all of a sudden.)</p><p>My rates have gone up every December since I bought the plan, but it's typically been about a $40/month increase when they've done it.  Not happy about it, but still competitive with what my employer wants to take out of my paychecks for their plan.</p><p>On the other hand, I didn't have any pre-existing conditions to deal with either.  I think the people who do are the ones who generally find they can't get a decent price on an individual health plan.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I actually still work full-time for an employer who has a unionized shop .
So even though I work in I.T. , in their office , we qualify to join in on the union 's health care program .
Nonetheless , it 's still actually a little bit cheaper for me to opt out of their insurance and pay for my own with a Blue Choice PPO policy .
( The union 's insurance plan sounds pretty good at first , until you read all the fine print and realize it has a " lifetime limit " hidden in it , which could really screw people over if they were in the hospital for cancer or something , and hit the limit all of a sudden .
) My rates have gone up every December since I bought the plan , but it 's typically been about a $ 40/month increase when they 've done it .
Not happy about it , but still competitive with what my employer wants to take out of my paychecks for their plan.On the other hand , I did n't have any pre-existing conditions to deal with either .
I think the people who do are the ones who generally find they ca n't get a decent price on an individual health plan .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I actually still work full-time for an employer who has a unionized shop.
So even though I work in I.T., in their office, we qualify to join in on the union's health care program.
Nonetheless, it's still actually a little bit cheaper for me to opt out of their insurance and pay for my own with a Blue Choice PPO policy.
(The union's insurance plan sounds pretty good at first, until you read all the fine print and realize it has a "lifetime limit" hidden in it, which could really screw people over if they were in the hospital for cancer or something, and hit the limit all of a sudden.
)My rates have gone up every December since I bought the plan, but it's typically been about a $40/month increase when they've done it.
Not happy about it, but still competitive with what my employer wants to take out of my paychecks for their plan.On the other hand, I didn't have any pre-existing conditions to deal with either.
I think the people who do are the ones who generally find they can't get a decent price on an individual health plan.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232406</id>
	<title>Re:doesn't that make you boiling mad?</title>
	<author>bnenning</author>
	<datestamp>1266865680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>how the hell did we arrive at this retarded status quo</p></div></blockquote><p>Mainly government intervention. Wage controls during WW2 prevented companies from paying higher salaries to attract workers, so they offered "free" health insurance as a workaround. The practice stuck around due to inertia and the favorable tax treatment of employer-provided insurance. It wasn't that bad at the time because people didn't change jobs nearly as often, and medical care was much less expensive (because it was much less capable). Today tying health insurance to employment is a horrible system, which conservatives have been pointing out for years. Of course when McCain proposed a small step away from it by changing the employer tax deduction to an individual deduction, Obama and the Democrats instantly demagogued the issue falsely claiming it was a tax increase.</p><blockquote><div><p>are you resisting because you have a better solution? (crickets)</p></div></blockquote><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthy\_Americans\_Act" title="wikipedia.org">Wyden-Bennett</a> [wikipedia.org] is a far superior bill. And if I were designing a reform bill, I'd treat health insurance like food. Some people can't afford food, so we either provide it directly or give them food stamps; we don't have the government take over or micromanage farms and grocery stores. Get rid of employer-provided insurance and have people buy their own policies, give subsidies to the poor, and have a "public option" providing catastrophic coverage for those who are otherwise uninsurable.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>how the hell did we arrive at this retarded status quoMainly government intervention .
Wage controls during WW2 prevented companies from paying higher salaries to attract workers , so they offered " free " health insurance as a workaround .
The practice stuck around due to inertia and the favorable tax treatment of employer-provided insurance .
It was n't that bad at the time because people did n't change jobs nearly as often , and medical care was much less expensive ( because it was much less capable ) .
Today tying health insurance to employment is a horrible system , which conservatives have been pointing out for years .
Of course when McCain proposed a small step away from it by changing the employer tax deduction to an individual deduction , Obama and the Democrats instantly demagogued the issue falsely claiming it was a tax increase.are you resisting because you have a better solution ?
( crickets ) Wyden-Bennett [ wikipedia.org ] is a far superior bill .
And if I were designing a reform bill , I 'd treat health insurance like food .
Some people ca n't afford food , so we either provide it directly or give them food stamps ; we do n't have the government take over or micromanage farms and grocery stores .
Get rid of employer-provided insurance and have people buy their own policies , give subsidies to the poor , and have a " public option " providing catastrophic coverage for those who are otherwise uninsurable .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>how the hell did we arrive at this retarded status quoMainly government intervention.
Wage controls during WW2 prevented companies from paying higher salaries to attract workers, so they offered "free" health insurance as a workaround.
The practice stuck around due to inertia and the favorable tax treatment of employer-provided insurance.
It wasn't that bad at the time because people didn't change jobs nearly as often, and medical care was much less expensive (because it was much less capable).
Today tying health insurance to employment is a horrible system, which conservatives have been pointing out for years.
Of course when McCain proposed a small step away from it by changing the employer tax deduction to an individual deduction, Obama and the Democrats instantly demagogued the issue falsely claiming it was a tax increase.are you resisting because you have a better solution?
(crickets)Wyden-Bennett [wikipedia.org] is a far superior bill.
And if I were designing a reform bill, I'd treat health insurance like food.
Some people can't afford food, so we either provide it directly or give them food stamps; we don't have the government take over or micromanage farms and grocery stores.
Get rid of employer-provided insurance and have people buy their own policies, give subsidies to the poor, and have a "public option" providing catastrophic coverage for those who are otherwise uninsurable.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230810</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31234484</id>
	<title>Stay corporate...</title>
	<author>jemenake</author>
	<datestamp>1266829380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The solution is to not leave your corporate job.
<br> <br>
You see, <i>this</i> is why the republicans are opposed to the principle of universal health-care. If you didn't have to keep working for a corporation in order to have suitable health coverage, then you'd be able to leave your job to strike out on your own and start your own business; giving your bright ideas a chance to thrive in the open marketplace. Something like this runs counter to the "rags to riches through hard work" that the republicans like to hold up as a fundamental principle...   oh, wait!</htmltext>
<tokenext>The solution is to not leave your corporate job .
You see , this is why the republicans are opposed to the principle of universal health-care .
If you did n't have to keep working for a corporation in order to have suitable health coverage , then you 'd be able to leave your job to strike out on your own and start your own business ; giving your bright ideas a chance to thrive in the open marketplace .
Something like this runs counter to the " rags to riches through hard work " that the republicans like to hold up as a fundamental principle... oh , wait !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The solution is to not leave your corporate job.
You see, this is why the republicans are opposed to the principle of universal health-care.
If you didn't have to keep working for a corporation in order to have suitable health coverage, then you'd be able to leave your job to strike out on your own and start your own business; giving your bright ideas a chance to thrive in the open marketplace.
Something like this runs counter to the "rags to riches through hard work" that the republicans like to hold up as a fundamental principle...   oh, wait!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232324</id>
	<title>Get Catastrophic Coverage</title>
	<author>kenh</author>
	<datestamp>1266865380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My brother for years had what is called "Catastrophic Coverage" and quite simply it makes the "who pays" calculation very simple. You agree to a pre-determined out-of-pocket toal for the year (say, $5K), then buy coverage for all medical expenses that exceed that amount up to whatever threshold you are comfortable with. Then, during the course of the year, you simply pay for all your medical bills out of pocket until you reach the threshold, then you prove to the insurance company how much you have paid and they will pay for the rest of the charges that occur that year.</p><p>There is a problem though - doctors will cut their fees becuase you are paying in cash, you will likely start to get a lot of free "samples" for prescription medicine and it may be quite hard for you to actually hit the threshold you set, but in the big scheme of things, that's an OK problem to have.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;^)</p><p>Others have mentioned COBRA, but it typically covers way more than *most* people need, and you'll be paying a lot for your coverage. (I've been on COBRA before, and my overly-generous healthcare plan from my previous provider ran $1,500-1,750/month (at various employers at various times))... The high deductable coverage ("Catastrophic Coverage" I mentioned earlier) is likely your best option - you get to pick ANY doctor, ANY lab, and incidental items like eyeglasses may be covered...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My brother for years had what is called " Catastrophic Coverage " and quite simply it makes the " who pays " calculation very simple .
You agree to a pre-determined out-of-pocket toal for the year ( say , $ 5K ) , then buy coverage for all medical expenses that exceed that amount up to whatever threshold you are comfortable with .
Then , during the course of the year , you simply pay for all your medical bills out of pocket until you reach the threshold , then you prove to the insurance company how much you have paid and they will pay for the rest of the charges that occur that year.There is a problem though - doctors will cut their fees becuase you are paying in cash , you will likely start to get a lot of free " samples " for prescription medicine and it may be quite hard for you to actually hit the threshold you set , but in the big scheme of things , that 's an OK problem to have .
; ^ ) Others have mentioned COBRA , but it typically covers way more than * most * people need , and you 'll be paying a lot for your coverage .
( I 've been on COBRA before , and my overly-generous healthcare plan from my previous provider ran $ 1,500-1,750/month ( at various employers at various times ) ) ... The high deductable coverage ( " Catastrophic Coverage " I mentioned earlier ) is likely your best option - you get to pick ANY doctor , ANY lab , and incidental items like eyeglasses may be covered.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My brother for years had what is called "Catastrophic Coverage" and quite simply it makes the "who pays" calculation very simple.
You agree to a pre-determined out-of-pocket toal for the year (say, $5K), then buy coverage for all medical expenses that exceed that amount up to whatever threshold you are comfortable with.
Then, during the course of the year, you simply pay for all your medical bills out of pocket until you reach the threshold, then you prove to the insurance company how much you have paid and they will pay for the rest of the charges that occur that year.There is a problem though - doctors will cut their fees becuase you are paying in cash, you will likely start to get a lot of free "samples" for prescription medicine and it may be quite hard for you to actually hit the threshold you set, but in the big scheme of things, that's an OK problem to have.
;^)Others have mentioned COBRA, but it typically covers way more than *most* people need, and you'll be paying a lot for your coverage.
(I've been on COBRA before, and my overly-generous healthcare plan from my previous provider ran $1,500-1,750/month (at various employers at various times))... The high deductable coverage ("Catastrophic Coverage" I mentioned earlier) is likely your best option - you get to pick ANY doctor, ANY lab, and incidental items like eyeglasses may be covered...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232182</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>xirusmom</author>
	<datestamp>1266864960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The right way to compare it is how much it is spend in health care per person, no matter were the money comes from. If it is cheaper to pay taxes and get the health care via the government, so be it. If not, so be it too. Let's see:</p><p>If your numbers are correct, then  $160 billion/ 33 million = 4800<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/year/person</p><p>We have health care plan through my husband's insurance, we pay 448 but his employer pays  700. this is for the 3 of us. We have copays of $30 for doctors visits (preventive once a year is $15), $100 for emergency room, $100 for MRIs, $700 for hospital admission. So lets assume 1 doctor visit, plus preventive, and one emergency room visit.<br>((448+700)x12+30x3+15x3+100)/3=4670/year/person  - we are healthy  our max copays/ person is $1000 so it could go up to $5500/person/year  with one hospital admission and a few procedures.</p><p>If you consider variables, it is about the same in total cost<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/year. The difference in this math is that I am using the best case scenario for the US. I doubt that anyone can get this deal without the employer group. Plus, you have to consider that insurance companies cover the cost for people who are younger and not yet eligible for medicare. To truly evaluate the costs we would have to weight medicare spending to the equation and I expect that costs to treat older folks are way higher. While for the same cost/person of the best case scenario, EVERYONE is covered in CANADA.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The right way to compare it is how much it is spend in health care per person , no matter were the money comes from .
If it is cheaper to pay taxes and get the health care via the government , so be it .
If not , so be it too .
Let 's see : If your numbers are correct , then $ 160 billion/ 33 million = 4800 /year/personWe have health care plan through my husband 's insurance , we pay 448 but his employer pays 700. this is for the 3 of us .
We have copays of $ 30 for doctors visits ( preventive once a year is $ 15 ) , $ 100 for emergency room , $ 100 for MRIs , $ 700 for hospital admission .
So lets assume 1 doctor visit , plus preventive , and one emergency room visit .
( ( 448 + 700 ) x12 + 30x3 + 15x3 + 100 ) /3 = 4670/year/person - we are healthy our max copays/ person is $ 1000 so it could go up to $ 5500/person/year with one hospital admission and a few procedures.If you consider variables , it is about the same in total cost /year .
The difference in this math is that I am using the best case scenario for the US .
I doubt that anyone can get this deal without the employer group .
Plus , you have to consider that insurance companies cover the cost for people who are younger and not yet eligible for medicare .
To truly evaluate the costs we would have to weight medicare spending to the equation and I expect that costs to treat older folks are way higher .
While for the same cost/person of the best case scenario , EVERYONE is covered in CANADA .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The right way to compare it is how much it is spend in health care per person, no matter were the money comes from.
If it is cheaper to pay taxes and get the health care via the government, so be it.
If not, so be it too.
Let's see:If your numbers are correct, then  $160 billion/ 33 million = 4800 /year/personWe have health care plan through my husband's insurance, we pay 448 but his employer pays  700. this is for the 3 of us.
We have copays of $30 for doctors visits (preventive once a year is $15), $100 for emergency room, $100 for MRIs, $700 for hospital admission.
So lets assume 1 doctor visit, plus preventive, and one emergency room visit.
((448+700)x12+30x3+15x3+100)/3=4670/year/person  - we are healthy  our max copays/ person is $1000 so it could go up to $5500/person/year  with one hospital admission and a few procedures.If you consider variables, it is about the same in total cost /year.
The difference in this math is that I am using the best case scenario for the US.
I doubt that anyone can get this deal without the employer group.
Plus, you have to consider that insurance companies cover the cost for people who are younger and not yet eligible for medicare.
To truly evaluate the costs we would have to weight medicare spending to the equation and I expect that costs to treat older folks are way higher.
While for the same cost/person of the best case scenario, EVERYONE is covered in CANADA.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230874</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230694</id>
	<title>you're screwed</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266861060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There is not much of a market for individual health plans in the US because of the tax advantage given to employer provided plans.  McCain wanted to level the tax field by providing the same tax credit to plans purchased by individuals, but Obama lambasted him for proposing a 'tax increase.'  McCain lost.  Now Obama is proposing an explicit tax increase that is much worse, and still doesn't provide the same tax credit to plans purchased by individuals.</p><p>My suggestion?  Stick with the corporate world and think about voting Republican next time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is not much of a market for individual health plans in the US because of the tax advantage given to employer provided plans .
McCain wanted to level the tax field by providing the same tax credit to plans purchased by individuals , but Obama lambasted him for proposing a 'tax increase .
' McCain lost .
Now Obama is proposing an explicit tax increase that is much worse , and still does n't provide the same tax credit to plans purchased by individuals.My suggestion ?
Stick with the corporate world and think about voting Republican next time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is not much of a market for individual health plans in the US because of the tax advantage given to employer provided plans.
McCain wanted to level the tax field by providing the same tax credit to plans purchased by individuals, but Obama lambasted him for proposing a 'tax increase.
'  McCain lost.
Now Obama is proposing an explicit tax increase that is much worse, and still doesn't provide the same tax credit to plans purchased by individuals.My suggestion?
Stick with the corporate world and think about voting Republican next time.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31236252</id>
	<title>Re:You're fucked</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266834660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>[quote]The best thing you can do is start a trivial corporation, hire on some fake employees, and then get a group plan.[/quote]</p><p>You really have absolutely no clue how to run a "trivial corporation" do you? You can't just hire "fake" employees and get a group plan.  Even just the concept of having actual employees will cost you an arm and a leg. This is why so many startups don't have employees, they use the loophole where everyone is an Officer of the Corporation, and can avoid having to pay things like unemployment and follow other employment laws.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>[ quote ] The best thing you can do is start a trivial corporation , hire on some fake employees , and then get a group plan .
[ /quote ] You really have absolutely no clue how to run a " trivial corporation " do you ?
You ca n't just hire " fake " employees and get a group plan .
Even just the concept of having actual employees will cost you an arm and a leg .
This is why so many startups do n't have employees , they use the loophole where everyone is an Officer of the Corporation , and can avoid having to pay things like unemployment and follow other employment laws .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>[quote]The best thing you can do is start a trivial corporation, hire on some fake employees, and then get a group plan.
[/quote]You really have absolutely no clue how to run a "trivial corporation" do you?
You can't just hire "fake" employees and get a group plan.
Even just the concept of having actual employees will cost you an arm and a leg.
This is why so many startups don't have employees, they use the loophole where everyone is an Officer of the Corporation, and can avoid having to pay things like unemployment and follow other employment laws.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230606</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231194</id>
	<title>Take their powers</title>
	<author>k10quaint</author>
	<datestamp>1266862440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you must stay in the USA try the following: kill and eat the hearts of republicans (if you can find any that have one). Then you will gain their powers and be able to ignore your health problems until they go away.

Do not move to Canada, their hockey team is bad. I recommend Switzerland or Sweden. If you don't like white people, try Singapore, Morocco, or Columbia. They all have better health care than the US. If you are picky about a country, check the WHO website. They have a list of countries with good health care.
<br>
If you have reached this point and are frothing at the mouth or hurling your mouse, lighten up and ebay yourself a sense of humor.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you must stay in the USA try the following : kill and eat the hearts of republicans ( if you can find any that have one ) .
Then you will gain their powers and be able to ignore your health problems until they go away .
Do not move to Canada , their hockey team is bad .
I recommend Switzerland or Sweden .
If you do n't like white people , try Singapore , Morocco , or Columbia .
They all have better health care than the US .
If you are picky about a country , check the WHO website .
They have a list of countries with good health care .
If you have reached this point and are frothing at the mouth or hurling your mouse , lighten up and ebay yourself a sense of humor .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you must stay in the USA try the following: kill and eat the hearts of republicans (if you can find any that have one).
Then you will gain their powers and be able to ignore your health problems until they go away.
Do not move to Canada, their hockey team is bad.
I recommend Switzerland or Sweden.
If you don't like white people, try Singapore, Morocco, or Columbia.
They all have better health care than the US.
If you are picky about a country, check the WHO website.
They have a list of countries with good health care.
If you have reached this point and are frothing at the mouth or hurling your mouse, lighten up and ebay yourself a sense of humor.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232464</id>
	<title>Re:Facts.</title>
	<author>Abcd1234</author>
	<datestamp>1266865860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Speaking for myself, mainly the idea that if I developed a catastrophic illness, my insurer might decide to drop coverage, and then I might be forced to go bankrupt in order to, you know, keep living.  I find a system like that incredibly cruel and heartless and I find it staggering that anyone could even attempt to defend it.</p><p>But, to each his own.  I live in a place that echos my ideals, and so I'm happy and glad I don't live in the US.  Many in the US feel the same about their system... though I'm incapable of understanding why.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Speaking for myself , mainly the idea that if I developed a catastrophic illness , my insurer might decide to drop coverage , and then I might be forced to go bankrupt in order to , you know , keep living .
I find a system like that incredibly cruel and heartless and I find it staggering that anyone could even attempt to defend it.But , to each his own .
I live in a place that echos my ideals , and so I 'm happy and glad I do n't live in the US .
Many in the US feel the same about their system... though I 'm incapable of understanding why .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Speaking for myself, mainly the idea that if I developed a catastrophic illness, my insurer might decide to drop coverage, and then I might be forced to go bankrupt in order to, you know, keep living.
I find a system like that incredibly cruel and heartless and I find it staggering that anyone could even attempt to defend it.But, to each his own.
I live in a place that echos my ideals, and so I'm happy and glad I don't live in the US.
Many in the US feel the same about their system... though I'm incapable of understanding why.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231340</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31236954</id>
	<title>how insurance makes money (insurance float)</title>
	<author>ProfBooty</author>
	<datestamp>1266836700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Uh, if you pay for your own insurance and file a claim, where do you think your insurance company acquires the money to pay for your claim? "</p><p>They mostly get it from investments (the insurance industry world wide has a portfolio in excess of 3.5 trillion dollars). Basically what happens is that the insurance companies take everyone's premiums and invest them in various markets and ideally make money off these investments with which to pay the costs of insurance claims. There are some tax advantages to this as well. Part of the reason why premiums have gone up in the past few years is that the insurance companies investments have not done so well, not that they are paying out more claims.</p><p>This concept is called float.</p><p><a href="http://www.fool.com/personal-finance/insurance/2006/12/05/insurance-industry-basics-float.aspx" title="fool.com">http://www.fool.com/personal-finance/insurance/2006/12/05/insurance-industry-basics-float.aspx</a> [fool.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Uh , if you pay for your own insurance and file a claim , where do you think your insurance company acquires the money to pay for your claim ?
" They mostly get it from investments ( the insurance industry world wide has a portfolio in excess of 3.5 trillion dollars ) .
Basically what happens is that the insurance companies take everyone 's premiums and invest them in various markets and ideally make money off these investments with which to pay the costs of insurance claims .
There are some tax advantages to this as well .
Part of the reason why premiums have gone up in the past few years is that the insurance companies investments have not done so well , not that they are paying out more claims.This concept is called float.http : //www.fool.com/personal-finance/insurance/2006/12/05/insurance-industry-basics-float.aspx [ fool.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Uh, if you pay for your own insurance and file a claim, where do you think your insurance company acquires the money to pay for your claim?
"They mostly get it from investments (the insurance industry world wide has a portfolio in excess of 3.5 trillion dollars).
Basically what happens is that the insurance companies take everyone's premiums and invest them in various markets and ideally make money off these investments with which to pay the costs of insurance claims.
There are some tax advantages to this as well.
Part of the reason why premiums have gone up in the past few years is that the insurance companies investments have not done so well, not that they are paying out more claims.This concept is called float.http://www.fool.com/personal-finance/insurance/2006/12/05/insurance-industry-basics-float.aspx [fool.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232718</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31233750</id>
	<title>Re:Feh. Health Insurance.</title>
	<author>dkleinsc</author>
	<datestamp>1266870420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>As I said, I'm all about making money and I'm all about industry making money, but profiting off the misfortune and ill-health of people is the worst kind of dickery.</p></div><p>No, that's probably just the second-worst kind of dickery. The worst kind of dickery is profiting off causing misfortune and ill-health. You know, like Blackwater, KBR, Lockheed, Boeing, and a bunch of other companies that Ike warned us all about 50 years ago.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>As I said , I 'm all about making money and I 'm all about industry making money , but profiting off the misfortune and ill-health of people is the worst kind of dickery.No , that 's probably just the second-worst kind of dickery .
The worst kind of dickery is profiting off causing misfortune and ill-health .
You know , like Blackwater , KBR , Lockheed , Boeing , and a bunch of other companies that Ike warned us all about 50 years ago .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As I said, I'm all about making money and I'm all about industry making money, but profiting off the misfortune and ill-health of people is the worst kind of dickery.No, that's probably just the second-worst kind of dickery.
The worst kind of dickery is profiting off causing misfortune and ill-health.
You know, like Blackwater, KBR, Lockheed, Boeing, and a bunch of other companies that Ike warned us all about 50 years ago.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230804</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231086</id>
	<title>Re:Move where?</title>
	<author>Abcd1234</author>
	<datestamp>1266862200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Seriously - If I was willing to move out of the U.S. and good health care was on my list of needs, where should I go?</i></p><p>If you're an American, Canada seems like the most obvious choice, not the least of which because of it's geographical convenience, cultural similarities, etc.  Of course, the system here isn't perfect... while the horror stories often cited are largely bullshit, it's certainly true that for non-catastrophic procedures (say, knee surgery), there are waiting lists, and they can be fairly long depending on the province.  OTOH, for anything life-and-death (heart surgery, cancer treatment, etc), coverage is immediate and, of course, free.</p><p>As for broadband, Canada is definitely one of the more advanced nations out there.  We're no Japan, but we're better than large swathes of the United States.  And I'm not aware of any monitoring or censorship efforts (okay, that's not entirely true... the whole "hate speech" thing and the "human rights tribunal" thing has gotten out of hand occasionally, but most of the time it's a non-issue).  Certainly I don't believe we're any worse than any other options out there (Europe, Japan, etc).</p><p>'course, I have no idea how hard it is to actually get permanent resident status, as there may be employment requirements, etc.</p><p>If you're seriously considering it, though, just keep in mind that, just like American states, the province you pick makes a difference.  For example, Alberta has a fairly well-funded healthcare system, while those in, say, the maritime provinces are struggling.  And culturally, there can be some substantial variability (eg, Alberta is quite conservative, British Columbia the precise opposite, etc).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Seriously - If I was willing to move out of the U.S. and good health care was on my list of needs , where should I go ? If you 're an American , Canada seems like the most obvious choice , not the least of which because of it 's geographical convenience , cultural similarities , etc .
Of course , the system here is n't perfect... while the horror stories often cited are largely bullshit , it 's certainly true that for non-catastrophic procedures ( say , knee surgery ) , there are waiting lists , and they can be fairly long depending on the province .
OTOH , for anything life-and-death ( heart surgery , cancer treatment , etc ) , coverage is immediate and , of course , free.As for broadband , Canada is definitely one of the more advanced nations out there .
We 're no Japan , but we 're better than large swathes of the United States .
And I 'm not aware of any monitoring or censorship efforts ( okay , that 's not entirely true... the whole " hate speech " thing and the " human rights tribunal " thing has gotten out of hand occasionally , but most of the time it 's a non-issue ) .
Certainly I do n't believe we 're any worse than any other options out there ( Europe , Japan , etc ) .
'course , I have no idea how hard it is to actually get permanent resident status , as there may be employment requirements , etc.If you 're seriously considering it , though , just keep in mind that , just like American states , the province you pick makes a difference .
For example , Alberta has a fairly well-funded healthcare system , while those in , say , the maritime provinces are struggling .
And culturally , there can be some substantial variability ( eg , Alberta is quite conservative , British Columbia the precise opposite , etc ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seriously - If I was willing to move out of the U.S. and good health care was on my list of needs, where should I go?If you're an American, Canada seems like the most obvious choice, not the least of which because of it's geographical convenience, cultural similarities, etc.
Of course, the system here isn't perfect... while the horror stories often cited are largely bullshit, it's certainly true that for non-catastrophic procedures (say, knee surgery), there are waiting lists, and they can be fairly long depending on the province.
OTOH, for anything life-and-death (heart surgery, cancer treatment, etc), coverage is immediate and, of course, free.As for broadband, Canada is definitely one of the more advanced nations out there.
We're no Japan, but we're better than large swathes of the United States.
And I'm not aware of any monitoring or censorship efforts (okay, that's not entirely true... the whole "hate speech" thing and the "human rights tribunal" thing has gotten out of hand occasionally, but most of the time it's a non-issue).
Certainly I don't believe we're any worse than any other options out there (Europe, Japan, etc).
'course, I have no idea how hard it is to actually get permanent resident status, as there may be employment requirements, etc.If you're seriously considering it, though, just keep in mind that, just like American states, the province you pick makes a difference.
For example, Alberta has a fairly well-funded healthcare system, while those in, say, the maritime provinces are struggling.
And culturally, there can be some substantial variability (eg, Alberta is quite conservative, British Columbia the precise opposite, etc).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230754</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232966</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>hey!</author>
	<datestamp>1266867540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>*We* spend a lot more per person on health care than Canada, even *counting* all the people we don't insure.  87\% more per capita.</p><p>So to avoid having to pay more taxes, we pay a *huge* amount more per person to private insurance.  We get some nice bennies for that like short waits for nose jobs.   On the other hand what we don't get is any guarantee we'll be able to keep paying our bills if we get really sick.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>* We * spend a lot more per person on health care than Canada , even * counting * all the people we do n't insure .
87 \ % more per capita.So to avoid having to pay more taxes , we pay a * huge * amount more per person to private insurance .
We get some nice bennies for that like short waits for nose jobs .
On the other hand what we do n't get is any guarantee we 'll be able to keep paying our bills if we get really sick .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>*We* spend a lot more per person on health care than Canada, even *counting* all the people we don't insure.
87\% more per capita.So to avoid having to pay more taxes, we pay a *huge* amount more per person to private insurance.
We get some nice bennies for that like short waits for nose jobs.
On the other hand what we don't get is any guarantee we'll be able to keep paying our bills if we get really sick.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231438</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232422</id>
	<title>insurance is a bad deal</title>
	<author>bzipitidoo</author>
	<datestamp>1266865740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you can afford the hit, you should not waste money on insurance.  That's easy to see on little stuff like the "road hazard insurance" the tire store wants to sell you, or the extended warranties the big box stores push.  But it's true of health insurance too.

</p><p>Everyone is so afraid of not having health insurance.  It's like the doctors, insurers, and lawyers have conspired to make the prospect of not having insurance so frightening that no one who the insurance companies accept dares spurn them.  First, doctor's bills are unlike any other bills.  They play this game of charging fantastically high prices that they actually don't expect to entirely collect.  Lawyers subtly encourage this fantasy billing, to justify higher awards, of which they get a percentage.  Also, the doctors charge high to compensate for the games insurers play.  And finally, yeah, many of them are greedy.  Many of them entered the profession not because they're passionately devoted to health care particularly, but because they can have big incomes.  So it seems you need health insurance just to get fair prices out of the doctors.  But actually, you can negotiate these bills way down, or so I've heard.  I have not had to find that out for myself, yet.  A most curious thing that sets medical debt apart is that in some cases it doesn't count against your credit record.  If there's a dispute, they might sic credit collection agencies on you, but they may have no teeth.

</p><p>And insurance doesn't mean you're safe.  Without it, you are of course taking a chance that some catastrophe might force you into bankruptcy.  But, insurance only keeps you a little safer from this!  Medical expenses can still bankrupt you despite supposedly being covered.  The insurance companies play games, constantly trying to whittle down their portion of expenses you incur.  They'll push you, try to get away with everything they can.  It gets very old arguing with them over some claim they didn't fully pay again.  Doubly hard to keep them honest when you're sick or hurt.  Have to balance the cost of dealing with them and the risk they won't pay against the benefits you're supposedly getting.  And it doesn't hurt to know a lawyer, just in case they need to be sued to stop them from weaseling out of their end of a bill.  If it does come to a lawsuit, there's no guarantee you'll win.  They might have covered their bases and you really are S.O.L. and have to pay it yourself.  Hello bankruptcy!

</p><p>So, whether or not you have insurance, it pays to handle the financial part of health care yourself, if you can.  Here again, being sick or hurt makes that harder.  The doctors can't handle their own money, they sure won't make sane decisions involving your money!  If you have insurance, they even push on you to blow off all the financial considerations too, because your insurance is paying for it, not you, so why should you care?  They prefer that you just be an obedient patient and not worry about how much some care will cost.  Worrying is unhealthy, right?  Don't count on that!  If you do that, you'll be in for some rude shocks.  It's not safe to assume that they'll charge a reasonable amount for some bit of care or equipment.  They're very sloppy.  Didn't need that appointment with the doctor?  Or, had to come back for a second visit because they screwed up?  Well, they'll charge you anyway.  That's right, they want you to pay for their mistakes too.  When they try to prescribe a name brand drug, find out what it's for, and whether there are generic drugs that accomplish the same thing, then demand they prescribe that instead.  They have a noticeable bias towards expensive patented drugs.  Even when the generic may actually be the better drug, they'll still push you towards what is more profitable for them.  Same with equipment.  When a hospital thrusts some form in front of you in which you declare that you'll pay for some bit of equipment, DON'T!  What's so egregious about that sort of thing is they won't even tell you what the price is up front.  They're actually</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you can afford the hit , you should not waste money on insurance .
That 's easy to see on little stuff like the " road hazard insurance " the tire store wants to sell you , or the extended warranties the big box stores push .
But it 's true of health insurance too .
Everyone is so afraid of not having health insurance .
It 's like the doctors , insurers , and lawyers have conspired to make the prospect of not having insurance so frightening that no one who the insurance companies accept dares spurn them .
First , doctor 's bills are unlike any other bills .
They play this game of charging fantastically high prices that they actually do n't expect to entirely collect .
Lawyers subtly encourage this fantasy billing , to justify higher awards , of which they get a percentage .
Also , the doctors charge high to compensate for the games insurers play .
And finally , yeah , many of them are greedy .
Many of them entered the profession not because they 're passionately devoted to health care particularly , but because they can have big incomes .
So it seems you need health insurance just to get fair prices out of the doctors .
But actually , you can negotiate these bills way down , or so I 've heard .
I have not had to find that out for myself , yet .
A most curious thing that sets medical debt apart is that in some cases it does n't count against your credit record .
If there 's a dispute , they might sic credit collection agencies on you , but they may have no teeth .
And insurance does n't mean you 're safe .
Without it , you are of course taking a chance that some catastrophe might force you into bankruptcy .
But , insurance only keeps you a little safer from this !
Medical expenses can still bankrupt you despite supposedly being covered .
The insurance companies play games , constantly trying to whittle down their portion of expenses you incur .
They 'll push you , try to get away with everything they can .
It gets very old arguing with them over some claim they did n't fully pay again .
Doubly hard to keep them honest when you 're sick or hurt .
Have to balance the cost of dealing with them and the risk they wo n't pay against the benefits you 're supposedly getting .
And it does n't hurt to know a lawyer , just in case they need to be sued to stop them from weaseling out of their end of a bill .
If it does come to a lawsuit , there 's no guarantee you 'll win .
They might have covered their bases and you really are S.O.L .
and have to pay it yourself .
Hello bankruptcy !
So , whether or not you have insurance , it pays to handle the financial part of health care yourself , if you can .
Here again , being sick or hurt makes that harder .
The doctors ca n't handle their own money , they sure wo n't make sane decisions involving your money !
If you have insurance , they even push on you to blow off all the financial considerations too , because your insurance is paying for it , not you , so why should you care ?
They prefer that you just be an obedient patient and not worry about how much some care will cost .
Worrying is unhealthy , right ?
Do n't count on that !
If you do that , you 'll be in for some rude shocks .
It 's not safe to assume that they 'll charge a reasonable amount for some bit of care or equipment .
They 're very sloppy .
Did n't need that appointment with the doctor ?
Or , had to come back for a second visit because they screwed up ?
Well , they 'll charge you anyway .
That 's right , they want you to pay for their mistakes too .
When they try to prescribe a name brand drug , find out what it 's for , and whether there are generic drugs that accomplish the same thing , then demand they prescribe that instead .
They have a noticeable bias towards expensive patented drugs .
Even when the generic may actually be the better drug , they 'll still push you towards what is more profitable for them .
Same with equipment .
When a hospital thrusts some form in front of you in which you declare that you 'll pay for some bit of equipment , DO N'T !
What 's so egregious about that sort of thing is they wo n't even tell you what the price is up front .
They 're actually</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you can afford the hit, you should not waste money on insurance.
That's easy to see on little stuff like the "road hazard insurance" the tire store wants to sell you, or the extended warranties the big box stores push.
But it's true of health insurance too.
Everyone is so afraid of not having health insurance.
It's like the doctors, insurers, and lawyers have conspired to make the prospect of not having insurance so frightening that no one who the insurance companies accept dares spurn them.
First, doctor's bills are unlike any other bills.
They play this game of charging fantastically high prices that they actually don't expect to entirely collect.
Lawyers subtly encourage this fantasy billing, to justify higher awards, of which they get a percentage.
Also, the doctors charge high to compensate for the games insurers play.
And finally, yeah, many of them are greedy.
Many of them entered the profession not because they're passionately devoted to health care particularly, but because they can have big incomes.
So it seems you need health insurance just to get fair prices out of the doctors.
But actually, you can negotiate these bills way down, or so I've heard.
I have not had to find that out for myself, yet.
A most curious thing that sets medical debt apart is that in some cases it doesn't count against your credit record.
If there's a dispute, they might sic credit collection agencies on you, but they may have no teeth.
And insurance doesn't mean you're safe.
Without it, you are of course taking a chance that some catastrophe might force you into bankruptcy.
But, insurance only keeps you a little safer from this!
Medical expenses can still bankrupt you despite supposedly being covered.
The insurance companies play games, constantly trying to whittle down their portion of expenses you incur.
They'll push you, try to get away with everything they can.
It gets very old arguing with them over some claim they didn't fully pay again.
Doubly hard to keep them honest when you're sick or hurt.
Have to balance the cost of dealing with them and the risk they won't pay against the benefits you're supposedly getting.
And it doesn't hurt to know a lawyer, just in case they need to be sued to stop them from weaseling out of their end of a bill.
If it does come to a lawsuit, there's no guarantee you'll win.
They might have covered their bases and you really are S.O.L.
and have to pay it yourself.
Hello bankruptcy!
So, whether or not you have insurance, it pays to handle the financial part of health care yourself, if you can.
Here again, being sick or hurt makes that harder.
The doctors can't handle their own money, they sure won't make sane decisions involving your money!
If you have insurance, they even push on you to blow off all the financial considerations too, because your insurance is paying for it, not you, so why should you care?
They prefer that you just be an obedient patient and not worry about how much some care will cost.
Worrying is unhealthy, right?
Don't count on that!
If you do that, you'll be in for some rude shocks.
It's not safe to assume that they'll charge a reasonable amount for some bit of care or equipment.
They're very sloppy.
Didn't need that appointment with the doctor?
Or, had to come back for a second visit because they screwed up?
Well, they'll charge you anyway.
That's right, they want you to pay for their mistakes too.
When they try to prescribe a name brand drug, find out what it's for, and whether there are generic drugs that accomplish the same thing, then demand they prescribe that instead.
They have a noticeable bias towards expensive patented drugs.
Even when the generic may actually be the better drug, they'll still push you towards what is more profitable for them.
Same with equipment.
When a hospital thrusts some form in front of you in which you declare that you'll pay for some bit of equipment, DON'T!
What's so egregious about that sort of thing is they won't even tell you what the price is up front.
They're actually</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230704</id>
	<title>Be methodical</title>
	<author>TheMeuge</author>
	<datestamp>1266861060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just like when planning for a very large purchase, be thorough and methodical in researching your options. Firstly, dismiss the plans that do not offer sufficient coverage. Secondly, dismiss plans that have yearly or total lifetime limits that are too low. Thirdly, read reviews, opinions, and small print on whatever plans are left. Finally, pick whichever fits your budget, preferably from a company whose last quarterly statement is not deep in the red, since the latter is sure to raise rates or compromise coverage.</p><p>Finally, remember that long-term disability is an absolute necessity in addition to life insurance (and possibly even more important). Make sure it's a policy with a completely different company.</p><p>If you go about it in a cool, organized manner, you will find the coverage you need... but don't be alarmed when you have to pay at least $15'000/year for it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just like when planning for a very large purchase , be thorough and methodical in researching your options .
Firstly , dismiss the plans that do not offer sufficient coverage .
Secondly , dismiss plans that have yearly or total lifetime limits that are too low .
Thirdly , read reviews , opinions , and small print on whatever plans are left .
Finally , pick whichever fits your budget , preferably from a company whose last quarterly statement is not deep in the red , since the latter is sure to raise rates or compromise coverage.Finally , remember that long-term disability is an absolute necessity in addition to life insurance ( and possibly even more important ) .
Make sure it 's a policy with a completely different company.If you go about it in a cool , organized manner , you will find the coverage you need... but do n't be alarmed when you have to pay at least $ 15'000/year for it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just like when planning for a very large purchase, be thorough and methodical in researching your options.
Firstly, dismiss the plans that do not offer sufficient coverage.
Secondly, dismiss plans that have yearly or total lifetime limits that are too low.
Thirdly, read reviews, opinions, and small print on whatever plans are left.
Finally, pick whichever fits your budget, preferably from a company whose last quarterly statement is not deep in the red, since the latter is sure to raise rates or compromise coverage.Finally, remember that long-term disability is an absolute necessity in addition to life insurance (and possibly even more important).
Make sure it's a policy with a completely different company.If you go about it in a cool, organized manner, you will find the coverage you need... but don't be alarmed when you have to pay at least $15'000/year for it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232882</id>
	<title>Re:Missing argument in health-care debate</title>
	<author>techie42</author>
	<datestamp>1266867240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Here is the part that nobody tells you.... up until the banking melt down almost half of all american bankruptcies were caused by medical expenses.

Think about that as a hurt on the economy! Some kind of health care could have cut the bankruptcy rate of the USA in half.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Here is the part that nobody tells you.... up until the banking melt down almost half of all american bankruptcies were caused by medical expenses .
Think about that as a hurt on the economy !
Some kind of health care could have cut the bankruptcy rate of the USA in half .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here is the part that nobody tells you.... up until the banking melt down almost half of all american bankruptcies were caused by medical expenses.
Think about that as a hurt on the economy!
Some kind of health care could have cut the bankruptcy rate of the USA in half.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230838</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231236</id>
	<title>If you are healthy consider an HSA.</title>
	<author>Compunexus</author>
	<datestamp>1266862500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you are healthy you should consider an HSA, Health Savings Account. The basic idea is an umbrella heath insurance plan for the very big stuff, so that it is cheap. Then tie it to a lifetime medical flex-spending account to pay for the small stuff. What you don't spend each year rolls over into the next year. Over time the account grows large enough to cover you when you are older and possibly having more problems. The trick is to start young and avoid unhealthy lifestyles.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you are healthy you should consider an HSA , Health Savings Account .
The basic idea is an umbrella heath insurance plan for the very big stuff , so that it is cheap .
Then tie it to a lifetime medical flex-spending account to pay for the small stuff .
What you do n't spend each year rolls over into the next year .
Over time the account grows large enough to cover you when you are older and possibly having more problems .
The trick is to start young and avoid unhealthy lifestyles .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you are healthy you should consider an HSA, Health Savings Account.
The basic idea is an umbrella heath insurance plan for the very big stuff, so that it is cheap.
Then tie it to a lifetime medical flex-spending account to pay for the small stuff.
What you don't spend each year rolls over into the next year.
Over time the account grows large enough to cover you when you are older and possibly having more problems.
The trick is to start young and avoid unhealthy lifestyles.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231162</id>
	<title>Re:Be methodical</title>
	<author>cabjf</author>
	<datestamp>1266862320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>He could join his local Chamber of Commerce as well.  Most offer group plans to members to help address this exact situation.</htmltext>
<tokenext>He could join his local Chamber of Commerce as well .
Most offer group plans to members to help address this exact situation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He could join his local Chamber of Commerce as well.
Most offer group plans to members to help address this exact situation.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230704</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230760</id>
	<title>Kaiser Permanente</title>
	<author>HotNeedleOfInquiry</author>
	<datestamp>1266861300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you live where they serve.  I've had them for 35 years, my daughter was born in their hospital, wife had multiple surgeries.  Get the plan with the highest co-pay and then self-fund an HSA account to cover the copay and other things like eyeglasses.  About half the price of the mainline insurance companies and no worries about how much the 80/20 costs will bankrupt you.  And yes, small business and self-employed plans are available.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you live where they serve .
I 've had them for 35 years , my daughter was born in their hospital , wife had multiple surgeries .
Get the plan with the highest co-pay and then self-fund an HSA account to cover the copay and other things like eyeglasses .
About half the price of the mainline insurance companies and no worries about how much the 80/20 costs will bankrupt you .
And yes , small business and self-employed plans are available .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you live where they serve.
I've had them for 35 years, my daughter was born in their hospital, wife had multiple surgeries.
Get the plan with the highest co-pay and then self-fund an HSA account to cover the copay and other things like eyeglasses.
About half the price of the mainline insurance companies and no worries about how much the 80/20 costs will bankrupt you.
And yes, small business and self-employed plans are available.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231336</id>
	<title>Enroll in College...</title>
	<author>Telephone Sanitizer</author>
	<datestamp>1266862740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Enroll in college. Seriously.</p><p>The price for enrolling a college group health plan for a year covering you, your spouse and your kids is probably equivalent in price to one month of a catastrophic high-deductible plan for you and your family.</p><p>And quite a few college plans throw in dental.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Enroll in college .
Seriously.The price for enrolling a college group health plan for a year covering you , your spouse and your kids is probably equivalent in price to one month of a catastrophic high-deductible plan for you and your family.And quite a few college plans throw in dental .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Enroll in college.
Seriously.The price for enrolling a college group health plan for a year covering you, your spouse and your kids is probably equivalent in price to one month of a catastrophic high-deductible plan for you and your family.And quite a few college plans throw in dental.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31242044</id>
	<title>Re:doesn't that make you boiling mad?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266917760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>i accept and acknowledge all of your criticism of socialized medicine. BUT ITS BETTER THAN WHAT WE CURRENTLY HAVE. do you not see that?</p><p>when you oppose socialized medicine in the usa, because of all the evils of that you see, you merely support a MUCH WORSE STATUS QUO</p><p>are you resisting because you have a better solution? (crickets)</p></div><p> <a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204251404574342170072865070.html" title="wsj.com" rel="nofollow">John Mackey does,</a> [wsj.com] as does <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WnS96NVlMI" title="youtube.com" rel="nofollow">John Stossel.</a> [youtube.com]</p><p>Regardless of your criticism of their solutions, don't act like "socialized medicine" is the only solution being proposed to fix the U.S.A.'s healthcare woes. That's just ign'ant.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>i accept and acknowledge all of your criticism of socialized medicine .
BUT ITS BETTER THAN WHAT WE CURRENTLY HAVE .
do you not see that ? when you oppose socialized medicine in the usa , because of all the evils of that you see , you merely support a MUCH WORSE STATUS QUOare you resisting because you have a better solution ?
( crickets ) John Mackey does , [ wsj.com ] as does John Stossel .
[ youtube.com ] Regardless of your criticism of their solutions , do n't act like " socialized medicine " is the only solution being proposed to fix the U.S.A. 's healthcare woes .
That 's just ign'ant .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>i accept and acknowledge all of your criticism of socialized medicine.
BUT ITS BETTER THAN WHAT WE CURRENTLY HAVE.
do you not see that?when you oppose socialized medicine in the usa, because of all the evils of that you see, you merely support a MUCH WORSE STATUS QUOare you resisting because you have a better solution?
(crickets) John Mackey does, [wsj.com] as does John Stossel.
[youtube.com]Regardless of your criticism of their solutions, don't act like "socialized medicine" is the only solution being proposed to fix the U.S.A.'s healthcare woes.
That's just ign'ant.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230810</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31237688</id>
	<title>Re:Facts.</title>
	<author>Stradivarius</author>
	<datestamp>1266839760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Loss aversion.</p><p>Most people here support various key elements of reform. But:</p><p>1. They're scared of losing the coverage they have (either immediately or as the eventual effect of "reform"). Most people are satisfied with their personal coverage.</p><p>2. They have low opinion of the federal government's effectiveness, so 2000-page grand schemes are scary.</p><p>3. They have even less faith in the politicians' good intentions.  Both parties seem intent on ideology and insensitive to the concerns of the population.</p><p>With better leadership, most elements in the current reform proposals could've gotten into law. But leadership is sorely lacking in DC at present.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Loss aversion.Most people here support various key elements of reform .
But : 1. They 're scared of losing the coverage they have ( either immediately or as the eventual effect of " reform " ) .
Most people are satisfied with their personal coverage.2 .
They have low opinion of the federal government 's effectiveness , so 2000-page grand schemes are scary.3 .
They have even less faith in the politicians ' good intentions .
Both parties seem intent on ideology and insensitive to the concerns of the population.With better leadership , most elements in the current reform proposals could 've gotten into law .
But leadership is sorely lacking in DC at present .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Loss aversion.Most people here support various key elements of reform.
But:1. They're scared of losing the coverage they have (either immediately or as the eventual effect of "reform").
Most people are satisfied with their personal coverage.2.
They have low opinion of the federal government's effectiveness, so 2000-page grand schemes are scary.3.
They have even less faith in the politicians' good intentions.
Both parties seem intent on ideology and insensitive to the concerns of the population.With better leadership, most elements in the current reform proposals could've gotten into law.
But leadership is sorely lacking in DC at present.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231000</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230652</id>
	<title>I did the same for a while...</title>
	<author>rapturizer</author>
	<datestamp>1266861000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>I found that the local grocery stores were union and part time workers could get full benefits. After looking at the cost of insurance for my family, I worked as a grocery cashier 15 hours a week (a fun job actually), received full benefits (taking up most of that paycheck) until my wife went back to work where she has the benefits. Otherwise, I would have never left corporate life because of that single issue.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I found that the local grocery stores were union and part time workers could get full benefits .
After looking at the cost of insurance for my family , I worked as a grocery cashier 15 hours a week ( a fun job actually ) , received full benefits ( taking up most of that paycheck ) until my wife went back to work where she has the benefits .
Otherwise , I would have never left corporate life because of that single issue .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I found that the local grocery stores were union and part time workers could get full benefits.
After looking at the cost of insurance for my family, I worked as a grocery cashier 15 hours a week (a fun job actually), received full benefits (taking up most of that paycheck) until my wife went back to work where she has the benefits.
Otherwise, I would have never left corporate life because of that single issue.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31241780</id>
	<title>Re:Health Insurance ... from an insurance agent</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266957420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And I will second what he's saying.  I've been in the health insurance business for 26 years.  It doesn't cost anything extra to work with a broker, you just save a lot of time that you can better spend elsewhere.</p><p>Brokers also know where the "gotcha's" are in the policies.  In an effort to keep plans affordable, policies have been scaled back.  Some plans omit coverage for brand name drugs.  Some don't cover any drugs at all.  That's fine if you don't ever need the drugs (and hopefully you never do...)  But none of my sick clients ever intended to get cancer, MS, HIV, Lupus, heart disease or a whole host of other problems.   </p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And I will second what he 's saying .
I 've been in the health insurance business for 26 years .
It does n't cost anything extra to work with a broker , you just save a lot of time that you can better spend elsewhere.Brokers also know where the " gotcha 's " are in the policies .
In an effort to keep plans affordable , policies have been scaled back .
Some plans omit coverage for brand name drugs .
Some do n't cover any drugs at all .
That 's fine if you do n't ever need the drugs ( and hopefully you never do... ) But none of my sick clients ever intended to get cancer , MS , HIV , Lupus , heart disease or a whole host of other problems .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And I will second what he's saying.
I've been in the health insurance business for 26 years.
It doesn't cost anything extra to work with a broker, you just save a lot of time that you can better spend elsewhere.Brokers also know where the "gotcha's" are in the policies.
In an effort to keep plans affordable, policies have been scaled back.
Some plans omit coverage for brand name drugs.
Some don't cover any drugs at all.
That's fine if you don't ever need the drugs (and hopefully you never do...)  But none of my sick clients ever intended to get cancer, MS, HIV, Lupus, heart disease or a whole host of other problems.   </sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231502</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231746</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266863760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Your drivel is insightful?  Who ever said it was completely free in Canada, besides simply stating that you don't pay for it directly?  The bottom line is that a smaller portion of the Canadian GDP goes to health care (regardless of 'who' pays for it) to the tune of 35\% less.  Considering that Canadians don't actually die/suffer more often due to their health care (despite the rhetoric) it would appear that they manage to save quite a bit of money with their 'healthcare fairies'.  Explain it with magic, or fairydust, or whatever you want, it's a fact.  Your disdain suggests you enjoy paying too much for an ineffective system...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Your drivel is insightful ?
Who ever said it was completely free in Canada , besides simply stating that you do n't pay for it directly ?
The bottom line is that a smaller portion of the Canadian GDP goes to health care ( regardless of 'who ' pays for it ) to the tune of 35 \ % less .
Considering that Canadians do n't actually die/suffer more often due to their health care ( despite the rhetoric ) it would appear that they manage to save quite a bit of money with their 'healthcare fairies' .
Explain it with magic , or fairydust , or whatever you want , it 's a fact .
Your disdain suggests you enjoy paying too much for an ineffective system.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Your drivel is insightful?
Who ever said it was completely free in Canada, besides simply stating that you don't pay for it directly?
The bottom line is that a smaller portion of the Canadian GDP goes to health care (regardless of 'who' pays for it) to the tune of 35\% less.
Considering that Canadians don't actually die/suffer more often due to their health care (despite the rhetoric) it would appear that they manage to save quite a bit of money with their 'healthcare fairies'.
Explain it with magic, or fairydust, or whatever you want, it's a fact.
Your disdain suggests you enjoy paying too much for an ineffective system...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230874</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232918</id>
	<title>Re:Missing argument in health-care debate</title>
	<author>brian0918</author>
	<datestamp>1266867360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The reason insurance has become attached to employment is entirely due to tax incentives put in place by the government, making it more costly not to tie insurance to employment.
<br> <br>
So this would be an argument against government intervention, not an argument for <i>more</i> intervention.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The reason insurance has become attached to employment is entirely due to tax incentives put in place by the government , making it more costly not to tie insurance to employment .
So this would be an argument against government intervention , not an argument for more intervention .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The reason insurance has become attached to employment is entirely due to tax incentives put in place by the government, making it more costly not to tie insurance to employment.
So this would be an argument against government intervention, not an argument for more intervention.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230838</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231122</id>
	<title>Re:Move where?</title>
	<author>DNS-and-BIND</author>
	<datestamp>1266862260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Most countries won't allow people over a certain age to immigrate, to prevent that exact situation.  They have enough elderly sucking off the government tit already. They don't need broken-down old foreigners who have contributed their lifetime's worth of taxes to some other government, dropping by for the freebies.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Most countries wo n't allow people over a certain age to immigrate , to prevent that exact situation .
They have enough elderly sucking off the government tit already .
They do n't need broken-down old foreigners who have contributed their lifetime 's worth of taxes to some other government , dropping by for the freebies .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most countries won't allow people over a certain age to immigrate, to prevent that exact situation.
They have enough elderly sucking off the government tit already.
They don't need broken-down old foreigners who have contributed their lifetime's worth of taxes to some other government, dropping by for the freebies.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230754</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231416</id>
	<title>I used to say stay in the job, but...</title>
	<author>CFD339</author>
	<datestamp>1266862920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have three kids and a wife, and over the years we've talked a lot about what would happen if she lost her corporate benefits.  Would I be able to keep running my business?  I used to think no, I'd need to go take a corporate cube dweller job for the healthcare and for the "stability" --</p><p>but here's the thing -- The stability is a myth at this point, and health coverage co-pays and employee buy in are getting more and more expensive.</p><p>If my consulting and project work gets slow, it gets slow.  It picks up or I alter my focus a bit.  In the corporate world, it's all or nothing.  One day a manager decides you're too expensive and can be replaced by some very good talent in India or Singapore -- who will eventually fail, not because of talent but because the US based project managers aren't able to write good specs and you've been making up for that locally for decades.   Next thing you know, you're gone.  Now you' have no health care anyway, plus no income, plus no prospects but to start over looking.</p><p>I looked at the cost, and decided that it'd be smarter to pay the $15k+ per year for coverage than to go captive again unless I had a crazy golden-parachute in my contract (which is unlikely as hell).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have three kids and a wife , and over the years we 've talked a lot about what would happen if she lost her corporate benefits .
Would I be able to keep running my business ?
I used to think no , I 'd need to go take a corporate cube dweller job for the healthcare and for the " stability " --but here 's the thing -- The stability is a myth at this point , and health coverage co-pays and employee buy in are getting more and more expensive.If my consulting and project work gets slow , it gets slow .
It picks up or I alter my focus a bit .
In the corporate world , it 's all or nothing .
One day a manager decides you 're too expensive and can be replaced by some very good talent in India or Singapore -- who will eventually fail , not because of talent but because the US based project managers are n't able to write good specs and you 've been making up for that locally for decades .
Next thing you know , you 're gone .
Now you ' have no health care anyway , plus no income , plus no prospects but to start over looking.I looked at the cost , and decided that it 'd be smarter to pay the $ 15k + per year for coverage than to go captive again unless I had a crazy golden-parachute in my contract ( which is unlikely as hell ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have three kids and a wife, and over the years we've talked a lot about what would happen if she lost her corporate benefits.
Would I be able to keep running my business?
I used to think no, I'd need to go take a corporate cube dweller job for the healthcare and for the "stability" --but here's the thing -- The stability is a myth at this point, and health coverage co-pays and employee buy in are getting more and more expensive.If my consulting and project work gets slow, it gets slow.
It picks up or I alter my focus a bit.
In the corporate world, it's all or nothing.
One day a manager decides you're too expensive and can be replaced by some very good talent in India or Singapore -- who will eventually fail, not because of talent but because the US based project managers aren't able to write good specs and you've been making up for that locally for decades.
Next thing you know, you're gone.
Now you' have no health care anyway, plus no income, plus no prospects but to start over looking.I looked at the cost, and decided that it'd be smarter to pay the $15k+ per year for coverage than to go captive again unless I had a crazy golden-parachute in my contract (which is unlikely as hell).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232754</id>
	<title>Re:I did the same for a while...</title>
	<author>NeutronCowboy</author>
	<datestamp>1266866760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ah, the feudal lord is speaking. Of course, your serfs should be grateful for the fact that they have a job that gives them a home and food on the table.</p><p>Consider the money you'd pay in taxes for their medical care as insurance. Insurance that one day, they won't just get tired of supporting your lifestyle and decide that they'd rather burn your home and be hung than slowly die each day on your lands.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ah , the feudal lord is speaking .
Of course , your serfs should be grateful for the fact that they have a job that gives them a home and food on the table.Consider the money you 'd pay in taxes for their medical care as insurance .
Insurance that one day , they wo n't just get tired of supporting your lifestyle and decide that they 'd rather burn your home and be hung than slowly die each day on your lands .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ah, the feudal lord is speaking.
Of course, your serfs should be grateful for the fact that they have a job that gives them a home and food on the table.Consider the money you'd pay in taxes for their medical care as insurance.
Insurance that one day, they won't just get tired of supporting your lifestyle and decide that they'd rather burn your home and be hung than slowly die each day on your lands.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231522</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231046</id>
	<title>Re:Just forget paying</title>
	<author>PTBarnum</author>
	<datestamp>1266862080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That works great, as long as you remain an average healthy person.   To take care of the small chance that you will become an unhealthy person, you still need some high-deductible insurance.  Otherwise you will be either broke, dead, or both if you get diagnosed with a major illness.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That works great , as long as you remain an average healthy person .
To take care of the small chance that you will become an unhealthy person , you still need some high-deductible insurance .
Otherwise you will be either broke , dead , or both if you get diagnosed with a major illness .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That works great, as long as you remain an average healthy person.
To take care of the small chance that you will become an unhealthy person, you still need some high-deductible insurance.
Otherwise you will be either broke, dead, or both if you get diagnosed with a major illness.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230848</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31234280</id>
	<title>Re:Try western Europe</title>
	<author>Vintermann</author>
	<datestamp>1266871980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There is also the problem of language (but that doesn't include Canada and UK, which both have excellent public solutions).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is also the problem of language ( but that does n't include Canada and UK , which both have excellent public solutions ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is also the problem of language (but that doesn't include Canada and UK, which both have excellent public solutions).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230690</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31236048</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>thetoadwarrior</author>
	<datestamp>1266834000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>But the Canadian won't ever get dropped or denied coverage because he used the service. Once you get cancer, even something fairly minor that you will live through, your insurance will sky rocket if you can get coverage. The Canadian will still be paying $404.04. What good is healthcare if you can't use it? Put the fucking money in the bank and earn interest.</htmltext>
<tokenext>But the Canadian wo n't ever get dropped or denied coverage because he used the service .
Once you get cancer , even something fairly minor that you will live through , your insurance will sky rocket if you can get coverage .
The Canadian will still be paying $ 404.04 .
What good is healthcare if you ca n't use it ?
Put the fucking money in the bank and earn interest .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But the Canadian won't ever get dropped or denied coverage because he used the service.
Once you get cancer, even something fairly minor that you will live through, your insurance will sky rocket if you can get coverage.
The Canadian will still be paying $404.04.
What good is healthcare if you can't use it?
Put the fucking money in the bank and earn interest.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231544</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230826</id>
	<title>Try doctors, dentists, etc. that take cash</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266861540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you can't afford health insurance, there are other options. At least until you or your family get seriously sick or injured.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you ca n't afford health insurance , there are other options .
At least until you or your family get seriously sick or injured .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you can't afford health insurance, there are other options.
At least until you or your family get seriously sick or injured.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31253992</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266935340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Only a moron or a retard would ask an overly-simplified,  false-dichotomy question like that.<br>Which are you?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Only a moron or a retard would ask an overly-simplified , false-dichotomy question like that.Which are you ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Only a moron or a retard would ask an overly-simplified,  false-dichotomy question like that.Which are you?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231286</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230940</id>
	<title>Your Best Solution:</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266861780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>is to find a civilized OECD country with socialized medicine.<br>The U.S.A. is now a third-world country with a large population of neglected residents. It's NOT going to get better.</p><p>Yours In Riga,<br>Kilgore Trout</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>is to find a civilized OECD country with socialized medicine.The U.S.A. is now a third-world country with a large population of neglected residents .
It 's NOT going to get better.Yours In Riga,Kilgore Trout</tokentext>
<sentencetext>is to find a civilized OECD country with socialized medicine.The U.S.A. is now a third-world country with a large population of neglected residents.
It's NOT going to get better.Yours In Riga,Kilgore Trout</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31236158</id>
	<title>COBRA</title>
	<author>GWBasic</author>
	<datestamp>1266834360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I quit my job and I buy COBRA.  It's not cheap.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I quit my job and I buy COBRA .
It 's not cheap .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I quit my job and I buy COBRA.
It's not cheap.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31232176</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>TheMeuge</author>
	<datestamp>1266864960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Thanks by the way, for modding me "Troll" for bringing up facts and an alternative viewpoint. Very civilized debate you're encouraging here.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Thanks by the way , for modding me " Troll " for bringing up facts and an alternative viewpoint .
Very civilized debate you 're encouraging here .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thanks by the way, for modding me "Troll" for bringing up facts and an alternative viewpoint.
Very civilized debate you're encouraging here.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230874</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230926</id>
	<title>Re:I did the same for a while...</title>
	<author>TheSpoom</author>
	<datestamp>1266861720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If this doesn't highlight the problems with the US health insurance system, nothing will.  You had to trade 15 hours a week of your life <i>simply to be able to live a healthy life</i>.  That sounds an awful lot like indentured servitude to me.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If this does n't highlight the problems with the US health insurance system , nothing will .
You had to trade 15 hours a week of your life simply to be able to live a healthy life .
That sounds an awful lot like indentured servitude to me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If this doesn't highlight the problems with the US health insurance system, nothing will.
You had to trade 15 hours a week of your life simply to be able to live a healthy life.
That sounds an awful lot like indentured servitude to me.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230652</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231574</id>
	<title>Re:Move to Canada</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266863280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Better way to spend taxes than invading third world countries and murdering hundreds of thousands of their population, or funding a defence industry as if it's a form of welfare.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Better way to spend taxes than invading third world countries and murdering hundreds of thousands of their population , or funding a defence industry as if it 's a form of welfare .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Better way to spend taxes than invading third world countries and murdering hundreds of thousands of their population, or funding a defence industry as if it's a form of welfare.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31230874</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_22_1516242.31231830</id>
	<title>Buy insurance</title>
	<author>SSpade</author>
	<datestamp>1266863940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You'll want insurance. Also, you'll want insurance coverage without any break in it, ideally, or you can hit a range of problems.</p><p>There are several ways to do that. If you're really setting up on your own then you're already looking at incorporating or setting up as an LLC. As part of that, talk to a local business insurance broker about various things, including health insurance.</p><p>If you're a professional, check with your professional associations. The IEEE (which is a great organization for engineers, software or otherwise) offers group insurance to members, for example.</p><p>If your skills are individually valuable, rather than being a commodity, consider working part time for either your previous employer or a random startup. There are other advantages to doing that as you set up on your own (peers to bounce ideas off, access to resources, actual income) but group health insurance is one of them.</p><p>Don't skimp on preventative care - dental and optical in particular. If you're young and healthy and don't have kids then you can skimp on the health coverage, going for a high deductible plan and doing the risk modeling yourself - a common thing for individual insurance, which can be very expensive otherwise. But if you have kids, or are thinking about it, don't do that.</p><p>And, once you've asked slashdot, talk to your spouse. Unless (s)he is on the same page about this, as well as everything else about setting up on your own, then you're well and truly fucked, both in relationship and business terms.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 'll want insurance .
Also , you 'll want insurance coverage without any break in it , ideally , or you can hit a range of problems.There are several ways to do that .
If you 're really setting up on your own then you 're already looking at incorporating or setting up as an LLC .
As part of that , talk to a local business insurance broker about various things , including health insurance.If you 're a professional , check with your professional associations .
The IEEE ( which is a great organization for engineers , software or otherwise ) offers group insurance to members , for example.If your skills are individually valuable , rather than being a commodity , consider working part time for either your previous employer or a random startup .
There are other advantages to doing that as you set up on your own ( peers to bounce ideas off , access to resources , actual income ) but group health insurance is one of them.Do n't skimp on preventative care - dental and optical in particular .
If you 're young and healthy and do n't have kids then you can skimp on the health coverage , going for a high deductible plan and doing the risk modeling yourself - a common thing for individual insurance , which can be very expensive otherwise .
But if you have kids , or are thinking about it , do n't do that.And , once you 've asked slashdot , talk to your spouse .
Unless ( s ) he is on the same page about this , as well as everything else about setting up on your own , then you 're well and truly fucked , both in relationship and business terms .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You'll want insurance.
Also, you'll want insurance coverage without any break in it, ideally, or you can hit a range of problems.There are several ways to do that.
If you're really setting up on your own then you're already looking at incorporating or setting up as an LLC.
As part of that, talk to a local business insurance broker about various things, including health insurance.If you're a professional, check with your professional associations.
The IEEE (which is a great organization for engineers, software or otherwise) offers group insurance to members, for example.If your skills are individually valuable, rather than being a commodity, consider working part time for either your previous employer or a random startup.
There are other advantages to doing that as you set up on your own (peers to bounce ideas off, access to resources, actual income) but group health insurance is one of them.Don't skimp on preventative care - dental and optical in particular.
If you're young and healthy and don't have kids then you can skimp on the health coverage, going for a high deductible plan and doing the risk modeling yourself - a common thing for individual insurance, which can be very expensive otherwise.
But if you have kids, or are thinking about it, don't do that.And, once you've asked slashdot, talk to your spouse.
Unless (s)he is on the same page about this, as well as everything else about setting up on your own, then you're well and truly fucked, both in relationship and business terms.</sentencetext>
</comment>
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	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_22_1516242_136</id>
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