<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_02_18_2230217</id>
	<title>Looking Back From the 1980s At Computers In Education</title>
	<author>timothy</author>
	<datestamp>1266489000000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>xzvf writes <i>"As someone who went to high school in the '80s, this <a href="http://www.techlearning.com/uploadedFiles/TechLearning/CCN\_Vol1\_No1.pdf">newsletter from 1980</a> (PDF) is a blast from the past.  An interview with Microsoft talks up its BASIC language product and predicts voice control of computers in five years.  Advertisements for Compute magazine, which was about to go monthly, and an article about a computer 'network' in Minnesota that connects some fax machine-looking terminal to a central computer over telephone lines.  Lots of Atari, TI and RadioShack news too. It's a reminder from 30 years ago that we are still not using technology effectively in education."</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>xzvf writes " As someone who went to high school in the '80s , this newsletter from 1980 ( PDF ) is a blast from the past .
An interview with Microsoft talks up its BASIC language product and predicts voice control of computers in five years .
Advertisements for Compute magazine , which was about to go monthly , and an article about a computer 'network ' in Minnesota that connects some fax machine-looking terminal to a central computer over telephone lines .
Lots of Atari , TI and RadioShack news too .
It 's a reminder from 30 years ago that we are still not using technology effectively in education .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>xzvf writes "As someone who went to high school in the '80s, this newsletter from 1980 (PDF) is a blast from the past.
An interview with Microsoft talks up its BASIC language product and predicts voice control of computers in five years.
Advertisements for Compute magazine, which was about to go monthly, and an article about a computer 'network' in Minnesota that connects some fax machine-looking terminal to a central computer over telephone lines.
Lots of Atari, TI and RadioShack news too.
It's a reminder from 30 years ago that we are still not using technology effectively in education.
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31194498</id>
	<title>Re:Ahh voice control</title>
	<author>El\_Oscuro</author>
	<datestamp>1266505140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I thought Duke Nukem Forever was supposed to be released for Linux this year... I and I hate talking to my banks computer...</htmltext>
<tokenext>I thought Duke Nukem Forever was supposed to be released for Linux this year... I and I hate talking to my banks computer.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I thought Duke Nukem Forever was supposed to be released for Linux this year... I and I hate talking to my banks computer...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192648</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31195946</id>
	<title>Re:MECC featured an early MUD</title>
	<author>SEWilco</author>
	<datestamp>1266517860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I was a system programmer on the MECC timesharing systems.  Over 440 serial ports made it one of the general-purpose systems with the most terminals (most systems with many terminals were for a single application such as airline reservations).
<p>
That terminal which resembles a fax machine is obviously a sketch of a Teletype ASR-33.  On the left side is the paper tape punch and reader; keyboard and printer on the right.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was a system programmer on the MECC timesharing systems .
Over 440 serial ports made it one of the general-purpose systems with the most terminals ( most systems with many terminals were for a single application such as airline reservations ) .
That terminal which resembles a fax machine is obviously a sketch of a Teletype ASR-33 .
On the left side is the paper tape punch and reader ; keyboard and printer on the right .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was a system programmer on the MECC timesharing systems.
Over 440 serial ports made it one of the general-purpose systems with the most terminals (most systems with many terminals were for a single application such as airline reservations).
That terminal which resembles a fax machine is obviously a sketch of a Teletype ASR-33.
On the left side is the paper tape punch and reader; keyboard and printer on the right.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192520</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31194610</id>
	<title>Re:We've tried a lot of stuff</title>
	<author>NewbieProgrammerMan</author>
	<datestamp>1266505860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Computers are good at learning management: Blackboard...</p></div><p>Dear gods, no.  Blackboard isn't good at much of anything except being an obstacle. Moodle's not too bad (and at least it's open), but I've never seen it used for anything you couldn't do with a web page and email account.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Computers are not much better than any other type of distance education.</p></div><p>I did most of my masters via distance education, and I must say that there was no benefit to seeing the streaming video on my computer instead of getting a DVD in the mail, except maybe the money that was saved by not mailing the DVD.  I still had to get hard copies of graded homework assignments and exams sent back in the mail.</p><p>I could, however, have done my masters presentation remotely via webcam, which wouldn't have been possible in the 80's (as far as I know).</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Computers are good at learning management : Blackboard...Dear gods , no .
Blackboard is n't good at much of anything except being an obstacle .
Moodle 's not too bad ( and at least it 's open ) , but I 've never seen it used for anything you could n't do with a web page and email account.Computers are not much better than any other type of distance education.I did most of my masters via distance education , and I must say that there was no benefit to seeing the streaming video on my computer instead of getting a DVD in the mail , except maybe the money that was saved by not mailing the DVD .
I still had to get hard copies of graded homework assignments and exams sent back in the mail.I could , however , have done my masters presentation remotely via webcam , which would n't have been possible in the 80 's ( as far as I know ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Computers are good at learning management: Blackboard...Dear gods, no.
Blackboard isn't good at much of anything except being an obstacle.
Moodle's not too bad (and at least it's open), but I've never seen it used for anything you couldn't do with a web page and email account.Computers are not much better than any other type of distance education.I did most of my masters via distance education, and I must say that there was no benefit to seeing the streaming video on my computer instead of getting a DVD in the mail, except maybe the money that was saved by not mailing the DVD.
I still had to get hard copies of graded homework assignments and exams sent back in the mail.I could, however, have done my masters presentation remotely via webcam, which wouldn't have been possible in the 80's (as far as I know).
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192398</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192460</id>
	<title>what reminder ?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266493620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>we're not using technology effectively in transport either, or business or effectively using transport to move us around efficiently.  or effectively using alternative energy sources even though methods have been around for decades now.  or effectively handling energy consumption, waste management, environmental management, protecting children from predators, dealing with alcohol and drug abuse...</p><p>My point ?  No matter what you look at from 30 years ago - we haven't made the progress that we always believed we should have by now...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>we 're not using technology effectively in transport either , or business or effectively using transport to move us around efficiently .
or effectively using alternative energy sources even though methods have been around for decades now .
or effectively handling energy consumption , waste management , environmental management , protecting children from predators , dealing with alcohol and drug abuse...My point ?
No matter what you look at from 30 years ago - we have n't made the progress that we always believed we should have by now.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>we're not using technology effectively in transport either, or business or effectively using transport to move us around efficiently.
or effectively using alternative energy sources even though methods have been around for decades now.
or effectively handling energy consumption, waste management, environmental management, protecting children from predators, dealing with alcohol and drug abuse...My point ?
No matter what you look at from 30 years ago - we haven't made the progress that we always believed we should have by now...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192424</id>
	<title>It's pathetic where we are today.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266493500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Back in the 1980s, we had such a bright outlook for the future of computing.</p><p>It sure hasn't turned out like we expected. Just take our software platforms today, for instance. On one hand, our most popular mobile devices (namely the iPhone and soon the iPad) are extremely locked up and restricted, with the vendor telling you EXACTLY which applications you're allowed to run.</p><p>Otherwise, we end up targeting the web. Sure, the web is good for some things, but back in the '80s we would have laughed at anyone who said that 25 years down the road, we'd be writing serious, million-line applications hosted in a SGML document, with logic written in a scripting language that's worse than Perl.</p><p>Hell, even Mac OS X hasn't evolved much past what NeXTSTEP was in the late 1980s. Windows is only slightly better than it was then. UNIX-like systems are mostly the same. We're even using the same windows system we used back then, and it really hasn't evolved all that much, either.</p><p>Of course, then there's all the DRM shit we have floating around.</p><p>I think we peaked somewhere in the 1970s, when Smalltalk and UNIX became somewhat mature. Then we fucked up, basically disregarded those much better technologies, and ended up in the pig trough that we're in today.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Back in the 1980s , we had such a bright outlook for the future of computing.It sure has n't turned out like we expected .
Just take our software platforms today , for instance .
On one hand , our most popular mobile devices ( namely the iPhone and soon the iPad ) are extremely locked up and restricted , with the vendor telling you EXACTLY which applications you 're allowed to run.Otherwise , we end up targeting the web .
Sure , the web is good for some things , but back in the '80s we would have laughed at anyone who said that 25 years down the road , we 'd be writing serious , million-line applications hosted in a SGML document , with logic written in a scripting language that 's worse than Perl.Hell , even Mac OS X has n't evolved much past what NeXTSTEP was in the late 1980s .
Windows is only slightly better than it was then .
UNIX-like systems are mostly the same .
We 're even using the same windows system we used back then , and it really has n't evolved all that much , either.Of course , then there 's all the DRM shit we have floating around.I think we peaked somewhere in the 1970s , when Smalltalk and UNIX became somewhat mature .
Then we fucked up , basically disregarded those much better technologies , and ended up in the pig trough that we 're in today .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Back in the 1980s, we had such a bright outlook for the future of computing.It sure hasn't turned out like we expected.
Just take our software platforms today, for instance.
On one hand, our most popular mobile devices (namely the iPhone and soon the iPad) are extremely locked up and restricted, with the vendor telling you EXACTLY which applications you're allowed to run.Otherwise, we end up targeting the web.
Sure, the web is good for some things, but back in the '80s we would have laughed at anyone who said that 25 years down the road, we'd be writing serious, million-line applications hosted in a SGML document, with logic written in a scripting language that's worse than Perl.Hell, even Mac OS X hasn't evolved much past what NeXTSTEP was in the late 1980s.
Windows is only slightly better than it was then.
UNIX-like systems are mostly the same.
We're even using the same windows system we used back then, and it really hasn't evolved all that much, either.Of course, then there's all the DRM shit we have floating around.I think we peaked somewhere in the 1970s, when Smalltalk and UNIX became somewhat mature.
Then we fucked up, basically disregarded those much better technologies, and ended up in the pig trough that we're in today.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31267284</id>
	<title>Re:Effectively?</title>
	<author>Captain Electrode</author>
	<datestamp>1265119800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Woah! You have video shot in 1905? Where did you park your Tardis?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Woah !
You have video shot in 1905 ?
Where did you park your Tardis ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Woah!
You have video shot in 1905?
Where did you park your Tardis?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192586</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31196158</id>
	<title>How Microsoft shackled the user, making consumers.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266521100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>With the rise of Windows 3.1 and Windows 95, Microsoft ceased furthering the development of "free" (gratis) programming languages which came BUNDLED with the computer. Microsoft could have BUNDLED Visual Basic, and therefore empower their users the way that Commodore and Atari and even Apple (via Hypercard) tried to do... but instead Microsoft gambled it all on creating a *dependant* consumer class of users. That's why there was never a community of Windows users loyally subscribing to computer education magazines, and typing in program listings (the best way to learn programming). As soon as Windows became #1, all of these educational methods died.</p><p>Today most computer users do not know anything about computers. They just know rote clicks which is knowledge with a short shelf life... only until the next version of said Windows product (go into any used bookstore and check out the pricing on say a 3 year old used book for UNIX/Linux and one for Windows... the Windows book is usually under $1 because Vb6 knowledge was made worthless... while a book on Python 2.5 or PHP 5.0 still has loads of value). It's no surprise that some of the best programmers started out on these old 8 and 16 bit systems, and they're better not because these platforms were superior to today's.. no they're better because they were exposed to problem solving an an earlier age. That does not happen today.</p><p>I missed the days when PC's came with multiple programming languages for free... then I found Linux, and I realized it wasn't true that these things went away... only that Microsoft wasn't interested in hooking young kids on programming the way Atari, BBC, Apple and Commodore wanted to do (and did so well, for the time they were relevent)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>With the rise of Windows 3.1 and Windows 95 , Microsoft ceased furthering the development of " free " ( gratis ) programming languages which came BUNDLED with the computer .
Microsoft could have BUNDLED Visual Basic , and therefore empower their users the way that Commodore and Atari and even Apple ( via Hypercard ) tried to do... but instead Microsoft gambled it all on creating a * dependant * consumer class of users .
That 's why there was never a community of Windows users loyally subscribing to computer education magazines , and typing in program listings ( the best way to learn programming ) .
As soon as Windows became # 1 , all of these educational methods died.Today most computer users do not know anything about computers .
They just know rote clicks which is knowledge with a short shelf life... only until the next version of said Windows product ( go into any used bookstore and check out the pricing on say a 3 year old used book for UNIX/Linux and one for Windows... the Windows book is usually under $ 1 because Vb6 knowledge was made worthless... while a book on Python 2.5 or PHP 5.0 still has loads of value ) .
It 's no surprise that some of the best programmers started out on these old 8 and 16 bit systems , and they 're better not because these platforms were superior to today 's.. no they 're better because they were exposed to problem solving an an earlier age .
That does not happen today.I missed the days when PC 's came with multiple programming languages for free... then I found Linux , and I realized it was n't true that these things went away... only that Microsoft was n't interested in hooking young kids on programming the way Atari , BBC , Apple and Commodore wanted to do ( and did so well , for the time they were relevent )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>With the rise of Windows 3.1 and Windows 95, Microsoft ceased furthering the development of "free" (gratis) programming languages which came BUNDLED with the computer.
Microsoft could have BUNDLED Visual Basic, and therefore empower their users the way that Commodore and Atari and even Apple (via Hypercard) tried to do... but instead Microsoft gambled it all on creating a *dependant* consumer class of users.
That's why there was never a community of Windows users loyally subscribing to computer education magazines, and typing in program listings (the best way to learn programming).
As soon as Windows became #1, all of these educational methods died.Today most computer users do not know anything about computers.
They just know rote clicks which is knowledge with a short shelf life... only until the next version of said Windows product (go into any used bookstore and check out the pricing on say a 3 year old used book for UNIX/Linux and one for Windows... the Windows book is usually under $1 because Vb6 knowledge was made worthless... while a book on Python 2.5 or PHP 5.0 still has loads of value).
It's no surprise that some of the best programmers started out on these old 8 and 16 bit systems, and they're better not because these platforms were superior to today's.. no they're better because they were exposed to problem solving an an earlier age.
That does not happen today.I missed the days when PC's came with multiple programming languages for free... then I found Linux, and I realized it wasn't true that these things went away... only that Microsoft wasn't interested in hooking young kids on programming the way Atari, BBC, Apple and Commodore wanted to do (and did so well, for the time they were relevent)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192292</id>
	<title>another blast from the past!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266492900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>first post!</htmltext>
<tokenext>first post !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>first post!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192904</id>
	<title>Re:older computers are better teaching tools</title>
	<author>tomcode</author>
	<datestamp>1266495900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sex instead of computing? On slashdot, isn't it the other way round?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sex instead of computing ?
On slashdot , is n't it the other way round ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sex instead of computing?
On slashdot, isn't it the other way round?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192440</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31195708</id>
	<title>Re:older computers are better teaching tools</title>
	<author>Nyder</author>
	<datestamp>1266514620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>...</p><p>my first application i ever saw was a 5 line PET Commodore 3032 BASIC program...with only an 8mhz CPU, 32k of memory, a 40x25 screen and BASIC to play with...</p></div><p>1mhz CPU duder.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>...my first application i ever saw was a 5 line PET Commodore 3032 BASIC program...with only an 8mhz CPU , 32k of memory , a 40x25 screen and BASIC to play with...1mhz CPU duder .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...my first application i ever saw was a 5 line PET Commodore 3032 BASIC program...with only an 8mhz CPU, 32k of memory, a 40x25 screen and BASIC to play with...1mhz CPU duder.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192440</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31202480</id>
	<title>30-year-old typo, multi-cluster ad, pg 23</title>
	<author>axl917</author>
	<datestamp>1266610740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Unless "softwear" was an acceptable alternative at the time.</p><p>Sorry, these things just jump out at me.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Unless " softwear " was an acceptable alternative at the time.Sorry , these things just jump out at me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unless "softwear" was an acceptable alternative at the time.Sorry, these things just jump out at me.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192572</id>
	<title>Depends on how you mean "effectively".</title>
	<author>maillemaker</author>
	<datestamp>1266494280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I can find accurate information much, much, much faster than I could in 1980.</p><p>So in terms of acquiring information, which is a precursor to acquiring knowledge, we are light-years ahead of where we were in 1980.</p><p>Now in terms of using technology to CONVEY information, I agree, we have lagged.</p><p>For example, in my view the presentation of Calculus has not changed much since its inception some 400 years ago.  One of the biggest problems with the presentation is that we fail to bridge the gap between understanding of the abstract  mathematical formulas and the concrete visualization of what they describe.</p><p>I firmly believe that computer graphics could help fill this gap but my professors still slog through crude chalk-board sketches trying to convey the concepts of area, volume, curvature, surfaces, rates of change, etc.</p><p>Every time I'm presented with a formula I'm doing mental tricks plugging in values for X &amp; Y trying to visualize it.  Computers could help here.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I can find accurate information much , much , much faster than I could in 1980.So in terms of acquiring information , which is a precursor to acquiring knowledge , we are light-years ahead of where we were in 1980.Now in terms of using technology to CONVEY information , I agree , we have lagged.For example , in my view the presentation of Calculus has not changed much since its inception some 400 years ago .
One of the biggest problems with the presentation is that we fail to bridge the gap between understanding of the abstract mathematical formulas and the concrete visualization of what they describe.I firmly believe that computer graphics could help fill this gap but my professors still slog through crude chalk-board sketches trying to convey the concepts of area , volume , curvature , surfaces , rates of change , etc.Every time I 'm presented with a formula I 'm doing mental tricks plugging in values for X &amp; Y trying to visualize it .
Computers could help here .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can find accurate information much, much, much faster than I could in 1980.So in terms of acquiring information, which is a precursor to acquiring knowledge, we are light-years ahead of where we were in 1980.Now in terms of using technology to CONVEY information, I agree, we have lagged.For example, in my view the presentation of Calculus has not changed much since its inception some 400 years ago.
One of the biggest problems with the presentation is that we fail to bridge the gap between understanding of the abstract  mathematical formulas and the concrete visualization of what they describe.I firmly believe that computer graphics could help fill this gap but my professors still slog through crude chalk-board sketches trying to convey the concepts of area, volume, curvature, surfaces, rates of change, etc.Every time I'm presented with a formula I'm doing mental tricks plugging in values for X &amp; Y trying to visualize it.
Computers could help here.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31195030</id>
	<title>hs computing saved me for mathematics</title>
	<author>Monkius</author>
	<datestamp>1266508560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>For what it's worth, Deerfield High School (which also served Highland Park, among other places) made computing available in a form that encouraged creativity--one of the best things about it was the lack of any relation to classroom activity.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>For what it 's worth , Deerfield High School ( which also served Highland Park , among other places ) made computing available in a form that encouraged creativity--one of the best things about it was the lack of any relation to classroom activity .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For what it's worth, Deerfield High School (which also served Highland Park, among other places) made computing available in a form that encouraged creativity--one of the best things about it was the lack of any relation to classroom activity.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31194308</id>
	<title>Why Educational Technology Has Failed Schools</title>
	<author>Paul Fernhout</author>
	<datestamp>1266504240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>An essay I wrote connected to a free software project on educational technology:<br>"Why Educational Technology Has Failed Schools"<br><a href="http://patapata.sourceforge.net/WhyEducationalTechnologyHasFailedSchools.html" title="sourceforge.net">http://patapata.sourceforge.net/WhyEducationalTechnologyHasFailedSchools.html</a> [sourceforge.net]<br>(The title has a double meaning.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p><p>The essential part is extracted here by Bill Kerr:<br><a href="http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/2007/01/why-education-technology-has-failed.html" title="blogspot.com">http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/2007/01/why-education-technology-has-failed.html</a> [blogspot.com]<br>"""<br>Ultimately, educational technology's greatest value is in supporting "learning on demand" based on interest or need which is at the opposite end of the spectrum compared to "learning just in case" based on someone else's demand.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Compulsory schools don't usually traffic in "learning on demand", for the most part leaving that kind of activity to libraries or museums or the home or business or the "real world". In order for compulsory schools to make use of the best of educational technology and what is has to offer, schools themselves must change...<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; So, there is more to the story of technology than it failing in schools. Modern information and manufacturing technology itself is giving compulsory schools a failing grade. Compulsory schools do not pass in the information age. They are no longer needed. What remains is just to watch this all play out, and hopefully guide the collapse of compulsory schooling so that the fewest people get hurt in the process.<br>"""</p><p>More recent stuff by me on education and socio-technological change:<br><a href="http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch\_listcultures.org/2009-October/005379.html" title="listcultures.org">http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch\_listcultures.org/2009-October/005379.html</a> [listcultures.org]<br><a href="http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch\_listcultures.org/2009-November/005584.html" title="listcultures.org">http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch\_listcultures.org/2009-November/005584.html</a> [listcultures.org]<br><a href="http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch\_listcultures.org/2009-November/006005.html" title="listcultures.org">http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch\_listcultures.org/2009-November/006005.html</a> [listcultures.org]</p><p>The good news is, in two to three years, people will be discarding today's fancy Google Android Smartphones, and they will make amazing educational platforms once they are free as hand-me-downs (instead of or in addition to OLPC-like endeavors):<br><a href="http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch\_listcultures.org/2009-November/006250.html" title="listcultures.org">http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch\_listcultures.org/2009-November/006250.html</a> [listcultures.org]<br>No doubt most compulsory schools will try to suppress them. At least they will be usable outside of school.</p><p>More on this general idea of wearable computers changing the nature of education (and society) from Theodore Sturgeon written as a sci-fi short story "The Skills of Xanadu" in 1956, and which inspired Ted Nelson and other technology pioneers:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=wpuJQrxHZXAC&amp;pg=PA51" title="google.com">http://books.google.com/books?id=wpuJQrxHZXAC&amp;pg=PA51</a> [google.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>An essay I wrote connected to a free software project on educational technology : " Why Educational Technology Has Failed Schools " http : //patapata.sourceforge.net/WhyEducationalTechnologyHasFailedSchools.html [ sourceforge.net ] ( The title has a double meaning .
: - ) The essential part is extracted here by Bill Kerr : http : //billkerr2.blogspot.com/2007/01/why-education-technology-has-failed.html [ blogspot.com ] " " " Ultimately , educational technology 's greatest value is in supporting " learning on demand " based on interest or need which is at the opposite end of the spectrum compared to " learning just in case " based on someone else 's demand .
    Compulsory schools do n't usually traffic in " learning on demand " , for the most part leaving that kind of activity to libraries or museums or the home or business or the " real world " .
In order for compulsory schools to make use of the best of educational technology and what is has to offer , schools themselves must change.. .     So , there is more to the story of technology than it failing in schools .
Modern information and manufacturing technology itself is giving compulsory schools a failing grade .
Compulsory schools do not pass in the information age .
They are no longer needed .
What remains is just to watch this all play out , and hopefully guide the collapse of compulsory schooling so that the fewest people get hurt in the process .
" " " More recent stuff by me on education and socio-technological change : http : //listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch \ _listcultures.org/2009-October/005379.html [ listcultures.org ] http : //listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch \ _listcultures.org/2009-November/005584.html [ listcultures.org ] http : //listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch \ _listcultures.org/2009-November/006005.html [ listcultures.org ] The good news is , in two to three years , people will be discarding today 's fancy Google Android Smartphones , and they will make amazing educational platforms once they are free as hand-me-downs ( instead of or in addition to OLPC-like endeavors ) : http : //listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch \ _listcultures.org/2009-November/006250.html [ listcultures.org ] No doubt most compulsory schools will try to suppress them .
At least they will be usable outside of school.More on this general idea of wearable computers changing the nature of education ( and society ) from Theodore Sturgeon written as a sci-fi short story " The Skills of Xanadu " in 1956 , and which inspired Ted Nelson and other technology pioneers :     http : //books.google.com/books ? id = wpuJQrxHZXAC&amp;pg = PA51 [ google.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>An essay I wrote connected to a free software project on educational technology:"Why Educational Technology Has Failed Schools"http://patapata.sourceforge.net/WhyEducationalTechnologyHasFailedSchools.html [sourceforge.net](The title has a double meaning.
:-)The essential part is extracted here by Bill Kerr:http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/2007/01/why-education-technology-has-failed.html [blogspot.com]"""Ultimately, educational technology's greatest value is in supporting "learning on demand" based on interest or need which is at the opposite end of the spectrum compared to "learning just in case" based on someone else's demand.
    Compulsory schools don't usually traffic in "learning on demand", for the most part leaving that kind of activity to libraries or museums or the home or business or the "real world".
In order for compulsory schools to make use of the best of educational technology and what is has to offer, schools themselves must change...
    So, there is more to the story of technology than it failing in schools.
Modern information and manufacturing technology itself is giving compulsory schools a failing grade.
Compulsory schools do not pass in the information age.
They are no longer needed.
What remains is just to watch this all play out, and hopefully guide the collapse of compulsory schooling so that the fewest people get hurt in the process.
"""More recent stuff by me on education and socio-technological change:http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch\_listcultures.org/2009-October/005379.html [listcultures.org]http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch\_listcultures.org/2009-November/005584.html [listcultures.org]http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch\_listcultures.org/2009-November/006005.html [listcultures.org]The good news is, in two to three years, people will be discarding today's fancy Google Android Smartphones, and they will make amazing educational platforms once they are free as hand-me-downs (instead of or in addition to OLPC-like endeavors):http://listcultures.org/pipermail/p2presearch\_listcultures.org/2009-November/006250.html [listcultures.org]No doubt most compulsory schools will try to suppress them.
At least they will be usable outside of school.More on this general idea of wearable computers changing the nature of education (and society) from Theodore Sturgeon written as a sci-fi short story "The Skills of Xanadu" in 1956, and which inspired Ted Nelson and other technology pioneers:
    http://books.google.com/books?id=wpuJQrxHZXAC&amp;pg=PA51 [google.com]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31197764</id>
	<title>Re:Excellent!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266584160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Oh, the benefit of hindsight.</p><p>There are some typical future-prediction gems: like the assumption that we would continue to use cassettes way into the future;</p><p>And this:</p><blockquote><div><p>...the first clues to the ZX-83 being that it will take Sinclair further up-market... will have its own screen<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... use two of the forthcoming Microdrives</p></div></blockquote><p>But the <a href="http://www.sincuser.f9.co.uk/006/letters.htm" title="f9.co.uk" rel="nofollow">letters page</a> [f9.co.uk] (<b>Over-heating stops printer</b>) is hilarious.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Oh , the benefit of hindsight.There are some typical future-prediction gems : like the assumption that we would continue to use cassettes way into the future ; And this : ...the first clues to the ZX-83 being that it will take Sinclair further up-market... will have its own screen ... use two of the forthcoming MicrodrivesBut the letters page [ f9.co.uk ] ( Over-heating stops printer ) is hilarious .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Oh, the benefit of hindsight.There are some typical future-prediction gems: like the assumption that we would continue to use cassettes way into the future;And this:...the first clues to the ZX-83 being that it will take Sinclair further up-market... will have its own screen ... use two of the forthcoming MicrodrivesBut the letters page [f9.co.uk] (Over-heating stops printer) is hilarious.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31193300</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31193758</id>
	<title>Re:Effectively?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266500400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I can only agree. when i was in high school we moved to a shiny new school building with a shiny new computer network and lots of computer labs.</p><p>It <i>could</i> have been fantastic.<br>They could have taught students how to program.<br>They could have used them as a real teaching aid.</p><p>What happened was that the company contracted to run the computer system had it locked down so tight you couldn't do anything worthwhile.<br>Most of the teachers were terrified of the computers.<br>One teacher tried to teach the ECDL while 2 lessons ahead of the students.<br>There was no way to use the computers to program.<br>They utterly wasted all the money they spent on the computers.</p><p>The problem wasn't the computers.<br>the problem was the administration and the teachers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I can only agree .
when i was in high school we moved to a shiny new school building with a shiny new computer network and lots of computer labs.It could have been fantastic.They could have taught students how to program.They could have used them as a real teaching aid.What happened was that the company contracted to run the computer system had it locked down so tight you could n't do anything worthwhile.Most of the teachers were terrified of the computers.One teacher tried to teach the ECDL while 2 lessons ahead of the students.There was no way to use the computers to program.They utterly wasted all the money they spent on the computers.The problem was n't the computers.the problem was the administration and the teachers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can only agree.
when i was in high school we moved to a shiny new school building with a shiny new computer network and lots of computer labs.It could have been fantastic.They could have taught students how to program.They could have used them as a real teaching aid.What happened was that the company contracted to run the computer system had it locked down so tight you couldn't do anything worthwhile.Most of the teachers were terrified of the computers.One teacher tried to teach the ECDL while 2 lessons ahead of the students.There was no way to use the computers to program.They utterly wasted all the money they spent on the computers.The problem wasn't the computers.the problem was the administration and the teachers.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192586</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192586</id>
	<title>Re:Effectively?</title>
	<author>ShakaUVM</author>
	<datestamp>1266494340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt;&gt;Does anybody actually believe that we have progressed significantly in our use of tech to educate? I sure don't.</p><p>I work in the field of education and technology, and I think most research efforts have shown, by and large, adding computers to something doesn't help. In fact, a lot of the time it hurts education.</p><p>Mainly this is because educators throw kids in front of a computer and tell them to "research their paper" or something like that, and 3.02 seconds later the kids are all on ESPN.com or IMing each other.</p><p>Computers should be used in education when there is a real reason to do so. Want to show kids what life was like in San Francisco before and after the Great Fire a bit over 100 years ago? Textbooks can't do that nearly as well as the primary source video footage taken in 1905 and 1906.</p><p>But the way most teachers use it, it's just counterproductive.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; &gt; Does anybody actually believe that we have progressed significantly in our use of tech to educate ?
I sure do n't.I work in the field of education and technology , and I think most research efforts have shown , by and large , adding computers to something does n't help .
In fact , a lot of the time it hurts education.Mainly this is because educators throw kids in front of a computer and tell them to " research their paper " or something like that , and 3.02 seconds later the kids are all on ESPN.com or IMing each other.Computers should be used in education when there is a real reason to do so .
Want to show kids what life was like in San Francisco before and after the Great Fire a bit over 100 years ago ?
Textbooks ca n't do that nearly as well as the primary source video footage taken in 1905 and 1906.But the way most teachers use it , it 's just counterproductive .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt;&gt;Does anybody actually believe that we have progressed significantly in our use of tech to educate?
I sure don't.I work in the field of education and technology, and I think most research efforts have shown, by and large, adding computers to something doesn't help.
In fact, a lot of the time it hurts education.Mainly this is because educators throw kids in front of a computer and tell them to "research their paper" or something like that, and 3.02 seconds later the kids are all on ESPN.com or IMing each other.Computers should be used in education when there is a real reason to do so.
Want to show kids what life was like in San Francisco before and after the Great Fire a bit over 100 years ago?
Textbooks can't do that nearly as well as the primary source video footage taken in 1905 and 1906.But the way most teachers use it, it's just counterproductive.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192340</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31196616</id>
	<title>Re:what reminder ?</title>
	<author>Eli Gottlieb</author>
	<datestamp>1266570960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's not hard to see why: technological progress is a subset, a form, of social progress.  When a culture halts its evolution out of fear that going in any direction except back into the past will destroy them, that culture becomes just as unable to put science and engineering into practice as widespread technology as it is unable to put new social, political, economic, or religious ideas into practice.</p><p>But on the upside, I can watch Gurren Lagann on Hulu through municipal WiFi while Rome burns.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's not hard to see why : technological progress is a subset , a form , of social progress .
When a culture halts its evolution out of fear that going in any direction except back into the past will destroy them , that culture becomes just as unable to put science and engineering into practice as widespread technology as it is unable to put new social , political , economic , or religious ideas into practice.But on the upside , I can watch Gurren Lagann on Hulu through municipal WiFi while Rome burns .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's not hard to see why: technological progress is a subset, a form, of social progress.
When a culture halts its evolution out of fear that going in any direction except back into the past will destroy them, that culture becomes just as unable to put science and engineering into practice as widespread technology as it is unable to put new social, political, economic, or religious ideas into practice.But on the upside, I can watch Gurren Lagann on Hulu through municipal WiFi while Rome burns.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192460</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31197508</id>
	<title>Re:Technology? No Technology?</title>
	<author>serveto</author>
	<datestamp>1266581160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Thank you for this, the most insightful post here.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Thank you for this , the most insightful post here .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thank you for this, the most insightful post here.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192658</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31193342</id>
	<title>cant we just stick with the basics?</title>
	<author>night\_flyer</author>
	<datestamp>1266498060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>seriously... Math, English, History, Science... none of those require "technology", they require Teachers who are willing to teach.  Administrators that are willing to discipline, and Parents who are willing to care. All this "technology" and hence all this spending hasnt raised up smarter children.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>seriously... Math , English , History , Science... none of those require " technology " , they require Teachers who are willing to teach .
Administrators that are willing to discipline , and Parents who are willing to care .
All this " technology " and hence all this spending hasnt raised up smarter children .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>seriously... Math, English, History, Science... none of those require "technology", they require Teachers who are willing to teach.
Administrators that are willing to discipline, and Parents who are willing to care.
All this "technology" and hence all this spending hasnt raised up smarter children.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31195870</id>
	<title>Bell and Howell Apple II</title>
	<author>jms</author>
	<datestamp>1266516780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Check out the black Bell and Howell branded Apple II on the cover.  Apple was having trouble selling Apple IIs to schools, because the computer needed to have an interlock to power it down when you opened the cover to meet purchasing requirements.  B&amp;H manufactured a special Apple II with the required power interlock, a black case, black keyboard, a B&amp;H logo in place of the Apple logo, and a B&amp;H sticker on the bottom covering over the Apple sticker.  The disk drives were also black.</p><p>There was an optional back attachment that provided a couple of additional power plugs, three line level audio inputs, and I think a video output.  There was also a joystick socket on the right side of the case.</p><p>I got one of these because my dad knew a Bell and Howell distributor and bought it from him.  Unfortunately mine is missing the space bar.  Try and find a black Apple II space bar.  Talk about unobtainium!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Check out the black Bell and Howell branded Apple II on the cover .
Apple was having trouble selling Apple IIs to schools , because the computer needed to have an interlock to power it down when you opened the cover to meet purchasing requirements .
B&amp;H manufactured a special Apple II with the required power interlock , a black case , black keyboard , a B&amp;H logo in place of the Apple logo , and a B&amp;H sticker on the bottom covering over the Apple sticker .
The disk drives were also black.There was an optional back attachment that provided a couple of additional power plugs , three line level audio inputs , and I think a video output .
There was also a joystick socket on the right side of the case.I got one of these because my dad knew a Bell and Howell distributor and bought it from him .
Unfortunately mine is missing the space bar .
Try and find a black Apple II space bar .
Talk about unobtainium !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Check out the black Bell and Howell branded Apple II on the cover.
Apple was having trouble selling Apple IIs to schools, because the computer needed to have an interlock to power it down when you opened the cover to meet purchasing requirements.
B&amp;H manufactured a special Apple II with the required power interlock, a black case, black keyboard, a B&amp;H logo in place of the Apple logo, and a B&amp;H sticker on the bottom covering over the Apple sticker.
The disk drives were also black.There was an optional back attachment that provided a couple of additional power plugs, three line level audio inputs, and I think a video output.
There was also a joystick socket on the right side of the case.I got one of these because my dad knew a Bell and Howell distributor and bought it from him.
Unfortunately mine is missing the space bar.
Try and find a black Apple II space bar.
Talk about unobtainium!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31194606</id>
	<title>Re:Effectively?</title>
	<author>bertoelcon</author>
	<datestamp>1266505800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Oregon Trail was kind of the high point in that.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Oregon Trail was kind of the high point in that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Oregon Trail was kind of the high point in that.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192340</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192658</id>
	<title>Technology? No Technology?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266494760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Perhaps we should concern ourselves not with whether we're using technology effectively in education, but whether we are educating effectively PERIOD. There seems to be this weird trend toward technological methods simply because they use technology, not because they work better than other methods. Whether technology is used in an educational scheme is incidental -- what matters is whether the scheme is effective.</p><p>The implication here is that our education could be better if only we could figure out how to harness technology correctly -- as if the use of technology is now a requirement for good education. This is putting the cart before the horse.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Perhaps we should concern ourselves not with whether we 're using technology effectively in education , but whether we are educating effectively PERIOD .
There seems to be this weird trend toward technological methods simply because they use technology , not because they work better than other methods .
Whether technology is used in an educational scheme is incidental -- what matters is whether the scheme is effective.The implication here is that our education could be better if only we could figure out how to harness technology correctly -- as if the use of technology is now a requirement for good education .
This is putting the cart before the horse .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Perhaps we should concern ourselves not with whether we're using technology effectively in education, but whether we are educating effectively PERIOD.
There seems to be this weird trend toward technological methods simply because they use technology, not because they work better than other methods.
Whether technology is used in an educational scheme is incidental -- what matters is whether the scheme is effective.The implication here is that our education could be better if only we could figure out how to harness technology correctly -- as if the use of technology is now a requirement for good education.
This is putting the cart before the horse.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31198798</id>
	<title>Re:Technology? No Technology?</title>
	<author>Attila Dimedici</author>
	<datestamp>1266592920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You are spot on. The funniest part is that back in the 1800s we had a theory of education that worked. They taught kids "1+1=2, 1+2=3, etc". The kids were expected to memorize this (and many other basic facts). In addition to this the kids were taught basic skills (like writing and reading). <br>
In the late 1800s, a group of people came along who thought that we should teach kids how to think and that they would learn the basic facts on their own. This idea didn't get much traction at first, but gradually it started to catch on. Then came the "Red Menace" and the space race, where getting lots of people who could do science and advanced math was more important than fancy theories. The old way worked, we didn't have time to figure out how to apply these new theories so they would work, so back to the old way it was. Then came the 1960s, and the Baby Boomers, who felt that everything old was bad and everything new was good. They had been schooled mostly in the old rote memory method and decided that there was a better way.<br>
40 some years later, they are still looking for it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You are spot on .
The funniest part is that back in the 1800s we had a theory of education that worked .
They taught kids " 1 + 1 = 2 , 1 + 2 = 3 , etc " .
The kids were expected to memorize this ( and many other basic facts ) .
In addition to this the kids were taught basic skills ( like writing and reading ) .
In the late 1800s , a group of people came along who thought that we should teach kids how to think and that they would learn the basic facts on their own .
This idea did n't get much traction at first , but gradually it started to catch on .
Then came the " Red Menace " and the space race , where getting lots of people who could do science and advanced math was more important than fancy theories .
The old way worked , we did n't have time to figure out how to apply these new theories so they would work , so back to the old way it was .
Then came the 1960s , and the Baby Boomers , who felt that everything old was bad and everything new was good .
They had been schooled mostly in the old rote memory method and decided that there was a better way .
40 some years later , they are still looking for it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are spot on.
The funniest part is that back in the 1800s we had a theory of education that worked.
They taught kids "1+1=2, 1+2=3, etc".
The kids were expected to memorize this (and many other basic facts).
In addition to this the kids were taught basic skills (like writing and reading).
In the late 1800s, a group of people came along who thought that we should teach kids how to think and that they would learn the basic facts on their own.
This idea didn't get much traction at first, but gradually it started to catch on.
Then came the "Red Menace" and the space race, where getting lots of people who could do science and advanced math was more important than fancy theories.
The old way worked, we didn't have time to figure out how to apply these new theories so they would work, so back to the old way it was.
Then came the 1960s, and the Baby Boomers, who felt that everything old was bad and everything new was good.
They had been schooled mostly in the old rote memory method and decided that there was a better way.
40 some years later, they are still looking for it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192658</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192648</id>
	<title>Ahh voice control</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266494640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Voice control reminds me of the promise of flying cars. We will have both in about 5-10 years. And Duke Nukem Forever.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Voice control reminds me of the promise of flying cars .
We will have both in about 5-10 years .
And Duke Nukem Forever .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Voice control reminds me of the promise of flying cars.
We will have both in about 5-10 years.
And Duke Nukem Forever.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31197058</id>
	<title>Re:Don't miss the article on MECC!</title>
	<author>osu-neko</author>
	<datestamp>1266576000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><nobr> <wbr></nobr></p><div class="quote"><p>...if the name MECC takes you on a walk down memory lane...</p></div><p>I wouldn't be at all surprised if there aren't a number of us here for whom it's true that MECC literally changed our lives.  I can't even imagine the person I'd be today if it weren't for my exposure to the MECC system thirty years ago.  MECC was what got my interested in computers and the idea that they could be more than an isolated game machine, that they could interconnect and be programmed to help share an experience with many other people.  MECC was the reason I got my first computer, and <i>insisted</i> that come with a modem, and why I started writing my own BBS software, and... a long chain of events that pretty much define my life, really.  I'm sure I'd have many of the same interests anyhow, but the path that I would have followed, the timing and ordering of events that flowed from that... it would be someone else with my name.  "There are no <i>little</i> butterflies."</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>...if the name MECC takes you on a walk down memory lane...I would n't be at all surprised if there are n't a number of us here for whom it 's true that MECC literally changed our lives .
I ca n't even imagine the person I 'd be today if it were n't for my exposure to the MECC system thirty years ago .
MECC was what got my interested in computers and the idea that they could be more than an isolated game machine , that they could interconnect and be programmed to help share an experience with many other people .
MECC was the reason I got my first computer , and insisted that come with a modem , and why I started writing my own BBS software , and... a long chain of events that pretty much define my life , really .
I 'm sure I 'd have many of the same interests anyhow , but the path that I would have followed , the timing and ordering of events that flowed from that... it would be someone else with my name .
" There are no little butterflies .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext> ...if the name MECC takes you on a walk down memory lane...I wouldn't be at all surprised if there aren't a number of us here for whom it's true that MECC literally changed our lives.
I can't even imagine the person I'd be today if it weren't for my exposure to the MECC system thirty years ago.
MECC was what got my interested in computers and the idea that they could be more than an isolated game machine, that they could interconnect and be programmed to help share an experience with many other people.
MECC was the reason I got my first computer, and insisted that come with a modem, and why I started writing my own BBS software, and... a long chain of events that pretty much define my life, really.
I'm sure I'd have many of the same interests anyhow, but the path that I would have followed, the timing and ordering of events that flowed from that... it would be someone else with my name.
"There are no little butterflies.
"
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192558</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192400</id>
	<title>Re:Effectively?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266493380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>to educate, you say?</p><p>We've not really come very far in business with technology if you consider the paperless office as case in point. Watch any small group of people with smart phones, say something that needs to be written down and watch what happens... gadgets yes, advancement... not so much</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>to educate , you say ? We 've not really come very far in business with technology if you consider the paperless office as case in point .
Watch any small group of people with smart phones , say something that needs to be written down and watch what happens... gadgets yes , advancement... not so much</tokentext>
<sentencetext>to educate, you say?We've not really come very far in business with technology if you consider the paperless office as case in point.
Watch any small group of people with smart phones, say something that needs to be written down and watch what happens... gadgets yes, advancement... not so much</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192340</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31194170</id>
	<title>Re:older computers are better teaching tools</title>
	<author>tool462</author>
	<datestamp>1266503280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I remember my formal education with computers in the 80s being the "training" you describe.  When we went to computer lab it was to practice touch-typing and 10-key.  The educators I had in the 80s could only imagine the computer as a replacement for the typewriter or adding machine.  We were only taught how to enter data fast and accurately.  A useful skill, sure, but teaches you no more about computers than teaching penmanship improves your writing.</p><p>My real computer education didn't begin until my dad brought home an Apple Macintosh (1984!), loaded up TrueBasic and set me loose.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I remember my formal education with computers in the 80s being the " training " you describe .
When we went to computer lab it was to practice touch-typing and 10-key .
The educators I had in the 80s could only imagine the computer as a replacement for the typewriter or adding machine .
We were only taught how to enter data fast and accurately .
A useful skill , sure , but teaches you no more about computers than teaching penmanship improves your writing.My real computer education did n't begin until my dad brought home an Apple Macintosh ( 1984 !
) , loaded up TrueBasic and set me loose .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I remember my formal education with computers in the 80s being the "training" you describe.
When we went to computer lab it was to practice touch-typing and 10-key.
The educators I had in the 80s could only imagine the computer as a replacement for the typewriter or adding machine.
We were only taught how to enter data fast and accurately.
A useful skill, sure, but teaches you no more about computers than teaching penmanship improves your writing.My real computer education didn't begin until my dad brought home an Apple Macintosh (1984!
), loaded up TrueBasic and set me loose.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192440</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31197838</id>
	<title>Re:Effectively?</title>
	<author>houghi</author>
	<datestamp>1266584880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Textbooks can't do that nearly as well as the primary source video footage taken in 1905 and 1906.</p><blockquote><div><p>For that you only need one computer and a beamer and a teacher who shows this footage, stops it at moments to give extra explanation to said footage and actually teaches stuff.<br>Sure, being able to find information yourself is importand too, but it should not be the only thing.</p></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Textbooks ca n't do that nearly as well as the primary source video footage taken in 1905 and 1906.For that you only need one computer and a beamer and a teacher who shows this footage , stops it at moments to give extra explanation to said footage and actually teaches stuff.Sure , being able to find information yourself is importand too , but it should not be the only thing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Textbooks can't do that nearly as well as the primary source video footage taken in 1905 and 1906.For that you only need one computer and a beamer and a teacher who shows this footage, stops it at moments to give extra explanation to said footage and actually teaches stuff.Sure, being able to find information yourself is importand too, but it should not be the only thing.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192586</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192876</id>
	<title>Vignettes</title>
	<author>Merc248</author>
	<datestamp>1266495840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>1. In my previous position, I worked at a high school which had a lot of fancy technology in place for teachers to use.  One of the pieces of technology is a "smart board" that is basically a huge tablet with an image projected onto it from a normal projector.  Unfortunately, when the "smart board" stops working, it becomes a huge useless slab that sits in the middle third of a regular whiteboard.  It's always nice to be able to take a PowerPoint, convert it over to another easily editable presentation format, and write on it during a lecture, but I've found that the teachers are now at the mercy of the IT department for even classroom teaching.</p><p>There's also a document camera that teachers can use to show their work while sitting at their desk.  What happened to simply writing everything in big bold letters on the whiteboard?</p><p>2. In my high school, the extent to which the majority of kids learn "computing" is in "Microcomputing Applications"; this is a class that teaches a hodge podge of various skills, like writing a letter in Word, filling in a spreadsheet in Excel, etc.  As someone said above, this is not education, but simply training: people learned how to write letters in English class.</p><p>3. The best computing education I received was when I wanted to play computer games on locked down computers in a CCNA class.  I didn't learn a damn thing about Cisco stuff (I was unmotivated to learn from CBT's in high school), but I did learn how easy it was to get rid of an admin password on Windows with physical access to the computer, and I also learned a bit about networking when setting up Quake 2 servers for other people to play on in class.  Best part about it: I was not caught even once.</p><p>4. Of course, I learned a lot by deciding to install Linux 10 years ago on a spare box.  Nowadays, I'm basically told that I'm living in an ivory tower and that "everyone uses Microsoft products."</p><p>Why are computers seen as mystical beasts with no rhyme or reason with the actual world?  (1) showed me that computers are not even necessarily used as tools for effective teaching but as something "for technology's sake", (2) showed me that there is no drive to break this cycle in the educational system, (3) showed me that the assumptions taken when setting up the system were quite flawed and might be predicated on the presumption that kids wouldn't necessarily have the drive or knowledge to break the password, and (4) showed me that these years of "education" has culminated in an anti-Linux (and I might even go as far as saying "anti-intellectual") stance against computing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>1 .
In my previous position , I worked at a high school which had a lot of fancy technology in place for teachers to use .
One of the pieces of technology is a " smart board " that is basically a huge tablet with an image projected onto it from a normal projector .
Unfortunately , when the " smart board " stops working , it becomes a huge useless slab that sits in the middle third of a regular whiteboard .
It 's always nice to be able to take a PowerPoint , convert it over to another easily editable presentation format , and write on it during a lecture , but I 've found that the teachers are now at the mercy of the IT department for even classroom teaching.There 's also a document camera that teachers can use to show their work while sitting at their desk .
What happened to simply writing everything in big bold letters on the whiteboard ? 2 .
In my high school , the extent to which the majority of kids learn " computing " is in " Microcomputing Applications " ; this is a class that teaches a hodge podge of various skills , like writing a letter in Word , filling in a spreadsheet in Excel , etc .
As someone said above , this is not education , but simply training : people learned how to write letters in English class.3 .
The best computing education I received was when I wanted to play computer games on locked down computers in a CCNA class .
I did n't learn a damn thing about Cisco stuff ( I was unmotivated to learn from CBT 's in high school ) , but I did learn how easy it was to get rid of an admin password on Windows with physical access to the computer , and I also learned a bit about networking when setting up Quake 2 servers for other people to play on in class .
Best part about it : I was not caught even once.4 .
Of course , I learned a lot by deciding to install Linux 10 years ago on a spare box .
Nowadays , I 'm basically told that I 'm living in an ivory tower and that " everyone uses Microsoft products .
" Why are computers seen as mystical beasts with no rhyme or reason with the actual world ?
( 1 ) showed me that computers are not even necessarily used as tools for effective teaching but as something " for technology 's sake " , ( 2 ) showed me that there is no drive to break this cycle in the educational system , ( 3 ) showed me that the assumptions taken when setting up the system were quite flawed and might be predicated on the presumption that kids would n't necessarily have the drive or knowledge to break the password , and ( 4 ) showed me that these years of " education " has culminated in an anti-Linux ( and I might even go as far as saying " anti-intellectual " ) stance against computing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>1.
In my previous position, I worked at a high school which had a lot of fancy technology in place for teachers to use.
One of the pieces of technology is a "smart board" that is basically a huge tablet with an image projected onto it from a normal projector.
Unfortunately, when the "smart board" stops working, it becomes a huge useless slab that sits in the middle third of a regular whiteboard.
It's always nice to be able to take a PowerPoint, convert it over to another easily editable presentation format, and write on it during a lecture, but I've found that the teachers are now at the mercy of the IT department for even classroom teaching.There's also a document camera that teachers can use to show their work while sitting at their desk.
What happened to simply writing everything in big bold letters on the whiteboard?2.
In my high school, the extent to which the majority of kids learn "computing" is in "Microcomputing Applications"; this is a class that teaches a hodge podge of various skills, like writing a letter in Word, filling in a spreadsheet in Excel, etc.
As someone said above, this is not education, but simply training: people learned how to write letters in English class.3.
The best computing education I received was when I wanted to play computer games on locked down computers in a CCNA class.
I didn't learn a damn thing about Cisco stuff (I was unmotivated to learn from CBT's in high school), but I did learn how easy it was to get rid of an admin password on Windows with physical access to the computer, and I also learned a bit about networking when setting up Quake 2 servers for other people to play on in class.
Best part about it: I was not caught even once.4.
Of course, I learned a lot by deciding to install Linux 10 years ago on a spare box.
Nowadays, I'm basically told that I'm living in an ivory tower and that "everyone uses Microsoft products.
"Why are computers seen as mystical beasts with no rhyme or reason with the actual world?
(1) showed me that computers are not even necessarily used as tools for effective teaching but as something "for technology's sake", (2) showed me that there is no drive to break this cycle in the educational system, (3) showed me that the assumptions taken when setting up the system were quite flawed and might be predicated on the presumption that kids wouldn't necessarily have the drive or knowledge to break the password, and (4) showed me that these years of "education" has culminated in an anti-Linux (and I might even go as far as saying "anti-intellectual") stance against computing.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192512</id>
	<title>Retro Computer News</title>
	<author>Hatta</author>
	<datestamp>1266493920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you like this, check out the <a href="http://www.archive.org/details/computerchronicles" title="archive.org">Computer Chronicles</a> [archive.org] the archive is hosting.  It's always neat to see people reacting to old technology like it's new.  Funny to hear the predictions that pan out, and even funnier to see the ones that don't.  Check out the UNIX episode, a lot of what they say about UNIX applies to Linux today.</p><p>You can also find scans of some classic computer magazines at <a href="http://www.atarimagazines.com/" title="atarimagazines.com">Atari Magazines</a> [atarimagazines.com] and <a href="http://www.old-computer-mags.com/" title="old-computer-mags.com">Old Computer Mags</a> [old-computer-mags.com].</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you like this , check out the Computer Chronicles [ archive.org ] the archive is hosting .
It 's always neat to see people reacting to old technology like it 's new .
Funny to hear the predictions that pan out , and even funnier to see the ones that do n't .
Check out the UNIX episode , a lot of what they say about UNIX applies to Linux today.You can also find scans of some classic computer magazines at Atari Magazines [ atarimagazines.com ] and Old Computer Mags [ old-computer-mags.com ] .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you like this, check out the Computer Chronicles [archive.org] the archive is hosting.
It's always neat to see people reacting to old technology like it's new.
Funny to hear the predictions that pan out, and even funnier to see the ones that don't.
Check out the UNIX episode, a lot of what they say about UNIX applies to Linux today.You can also find scans of some classic computer magazines at Atari Magazines [atarimagazines.com] and Old Computer Mags [old-computer-mags.com].</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192726</id>
	<title>Re:We are using it very effectively in education</title>
	<author>Beardo the Bearded</author>
	<datestamp>1266495180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>*shakes tiny fist*</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>* shakes tiny fist *</tokentext>
<sentencetext>*shakes tiny fist*</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192326</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31202772</id>
	<title>Re:A super calculator</title>
	<author>yuri benjamin</author>
	<datestamp>1266612000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>however, I was not allowed to actually touch a computer. This created a procedure where I, and other interested students, would write out our programs on paper and then hand them to another, authorized, student, to type in to the computer.</p></div><p>This sounds like my parents except they wrote their programs on cards which were then submitted to be punched, then the punched cards were given to someone with access to the computer and my parents were given a print-out of the output. This was before I was born. I'm a second generation geek.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>however , I was not allowed to actually touch a computer .
This created a procedure where I , and other interested students , would write out our programs on paper and then hand them to another , authorized , student , to type in to the computer.This sounds like my parents except they wrote their programs on cards which were then submitted to be punched , then the punched cards were given to someone with access to the computer and my parents were given a print-out of the output .
This was before I was born .
I 'm a second generation geek .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>however, I was not allowed to actually touch a computer.
This created a procedure where I, and other interested students, would write out our programs on paper and then hand them to another, authorized, student, to type in to the computer.This sounds like my parents except they wrote their programs on cards which were then submitted to be punched, then the punched cards were given to someone with access to the computer and my parents were given a print-out of the output.
This was before I was born.
I'm a second generation geek.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192392</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192558</id>
	<title>Don't miss the article on MECC!</title>
	<author>MisterJones</author>
	<datestamp>1266494220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ah, such fond memories of the Oregon Trail...  among other things!</p><p>Fascinating to read an article about its early days.</p><p>Wikipedia has a bit of history as well, if the name MECC takes you on a walk down memory lane...</p><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MECC" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MECC</a> [wikipedia.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ah , such fond memories of the Oregon Trail... among other things ! Fascinating to read an article about its early days.Wikipedia has a bit of history as well , if the name MECC takes you on a walk down memory lane...http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MECC [ wikipedia.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ah, such fond memories of the Oregon Trail...  among other things!Fascinating to read an article about its early days.Wikipedia has a bit of history as well, if the name MECC takes you on a walk down memory lane...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MECC [wikipedia.org]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31194584</id>
	<title>Re:older computers are better teaching tools</title>
	<author>mikael</author>
	<datestamp>1266505740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>with only an 8mhz CPU, 32k of memory, a 40x25 screen and BASIC to play with, there were no "expectations" of fanciness, fonts or even graphics to get in the way. the learning curve was quick and dirty, and there were no frills to overwhelm you.</i></p><p>BASIC was quick to learn, you just needed to learn about variables, GOSUB/RETURN to make function calls, and how to write text and read input and you could write simple ASCII text games. If you learned about the video hardware of the machine, you could create your own fonts. Just about every machine copied their ROM character set into RAM, which thus could be reprogrammed. At 8 bytes, character, you just needed 1K to define a new character set.<br>With some knowledge of assembly, you could implement a sprite engine.</p><p>But there was an extremely rapid evolution from text-only games (guess a number, casino, adventure, ASCII art platform games) to platform games with programmed character sets/tiles/sprites. Even the platform games evolved from being single screen levels to vast scrolling horizontally and vertically levels and then isometric views with diagonal scrolling. By the end of the 1980's many games featured sampled sound, levels generated from custom level editors and paint programs. The fine touch of any game was to have a bitmap signature in the title or credits.</p><p>Programming magazines like (BYTE, Computing Today, Antic, Compute!), provided many interesting articles. A couple of short videos:</p><p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3vmDYovB\_8" title="youtube.com">3D Planets</a> [youtube.com]<br><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDEQco0N1kk" title="youtube.com">3D Landscapes</a> [youtube.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>with only an 8mhz CPU , 32k of memory , a 40x25 screen and BASIC to play with , there were no " expectations " of fanciness , fonts or even graphics to get in the way .
the learning curve was quick and dirty , and there were no frills to overwhelm you.BASIC was quick to learn , you just needed to learn about variables , GOSUB/RETURN to make function calls , and how to write text and read input and you could write simple ASCII text games .
If you learned about the video hardware of the machine , you could create your own fonts .
Just about every machine copied their ROM character set into RAM , which thus could be reprogrammed .
At 8 bytes , character , you just needed 1K to define a new character set.With some knowledge of assembly , you could implement a sprite engine.But there was an extremely rapid evolution from text-only games ( guess a number , casino , adventure , ASCII art platform games ) to platform games with programmed character sets/tiles/sprites .
Even the platform games evolved from being single screen levels to vast scrolling horizontally and vertically levels and then isometric views with diagonal scrolling .
By the end of the 1980 's many games featured sampled sound , levels generated from custom level editors and paint programs .
The fine touch of any game was to have a bitmap signature in the title or credits.Programming magazines like ( BYTE , Computing Today , Antic , Compute !
) , provided many interesting articles .
A couple of short videos : 3D Planets [ youtube.com ] 3D Landscapes [ youtube.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>with only an 8mhz CPU, 32k of memory, a 40x25 screen and BASIC to play with, there were no "expectations" of fanciness, fonts or even graphics to get in the way.
the learning curve was quick and dirty, and there were no frills to overwhelm you.BASIC was quick to learn, you just needed to learn about variables, GOSUB/RETURN to make function calls, and how to write text and read input and you could write simple ASCII text games.
If you learned about the video hardware of the machine, you could create your own fonts.
Just about every machine copied their ROM character set into RAM, which thus could be reprogrammed.
At 8 bytes, character, you just needed 1K to define a new character set.With some knowledge of assembly, you could implement a sprite engine.But there was an extremely rapid evolution from text-only games (guess a number, casino, adventure, ASCII art platform games) to platform games with programmed character sets/tiles/sprites.
Even the platform games evolved from being single screen levels to vast scrolling horizontally and vertically levels and then isometric views with diagonal scrolling.
By the end of the 1980's many games featured sampled sound, levels generated from custom level editors and paint programs.
The fine touch of any game was to have a bitmap signature in the title or credits.Programming magazines like (BYTE, Computing Today, Antic, Compute!
), provided many interesting articles.
A couple of short videos:3D Planets [youtube.com]3D Landscapes [youtube.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192440</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31194150</id>
	<title>Change in perspective of educators</title>
	<author>cboscari</author>
	<datestamp>1266503160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Where I see the difference is that 30 years ago, children were being taught to program computers in school. Now days, they are being used essentially as a media delivery system. Schools use computers to keep the students interested in the lesson by videos and games. Students are encouraged to be consumers of computer technology, not the creators of it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Where I see the difference is that 30 years ago , children were being taught to program computers in school .
Now days , they are being used essentially as a media delivery system .
Schools use computers to keep the students interested in the lesson by videos and games .
Students are encouraged to be consumers of computer technology , not the creators of it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Where I see the difference is that 30 years ago, children were being taught to program computers in school.
Now days, they are being used essentially as a media delivery system.
Schools use computers to keep the students interested in the lesson by videos and games.
Students are encouraged to be consumers of computer technology, not the creators of it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192412</id>
	<title>I tried to ford the river...</title>
	<author>MrEricSir</author>
	<datestamp>1266493440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...but my oxen died.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...but my oxen died .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...but my oxen died.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31195856</id>
	<title>HP2000 BABY!   Re:A super calculator</title>
	<author>arfonrg</author>
	<datestamp>1266516540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wow! Your school was anal! I started high school in 1980, in 1982, I took the one Computer Programming. Funny thing was, the teacher was learning programming also so she would go to class at night and then come in and teach us what she had just been taught. Funny thing is, I read ahead in the text book and within a week, was far ahead ofthe teacher but, I digress.</p><p>We had two ASR33 ttys with acoustic modems that allowed us to dial into a HP2000 computer (at the Mathmatics and Science Center on Mountain Road for any Richmonders) that was shared by the whole district. We had to store our programs on punch tape and turn in printouts showing our programs and the outputs. We also had an early model Apple II. Our school system wasn't afraid of us using the computers. That was a fantastic class and an experience that I am very grateful for. Thanks Henrico County!</p><p>BTW, I'm still looking for an ASR33 (hint hint)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Wow !
Your school was anal !
I started high school in 1980 , in 1982 , I took the one Computer Programming .
Funny thing was , the teacher was learning programming also so she would go to class at night and then come in and teach us what she had just been taught .
Funny thing is , I read ahead in the text book and within a week , was far ahead ofthe teacher but , I digress.We had two ASR33 ttys with acoustic modems that allowed us to dial into a HP2000 computer ( at the Mathmatics and Science Center on Mountain Road for any Richmonders ) that was shared by the whole district .
We had to store our programs on punch tape and turn in printouts showing our programs and the outputs .
We also had an early model Apple II .
Our school system was n't afraid of us using the computers .
That was a fantastic class and an experience that I am very grateful for .
Thanks Henrico County ! BTW , I 'm still looking for an ASR33 ( hint hint )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wow!
Your school was anal!
I started high school in 1980, in 1982, I took the one Computer Programming.
Funny thing was, the teacher was learning programming also so she would go to class at night and then come in and teach us what she had just been taught.
Funny thing is, I read ahead in the text book and within a week, was far ahead ofthe teacher but, I digress.We had two ASR33 ttys with acoustic modems that allowed us to dial into a HP2000 computer (at the Mathmatics and Science Center on Mountain Road for any Richmonders) that was shared by the whole district.
We had to store our programs on punch tape and turn in printouts showing our programs and the outputs.
We also had an early model Apple II.
Our school system wasn't afraid of us using the computers.
That was a fantastic class and an experience that I am very grateful for.
Thanks Henrico County!BTW, I'm still looking for an ASR33 (hint hint)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192392</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31195938</id>
	<title>Prescient</title>
	<author>Boawk</author>
	<datestamp>1266517740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This is an interesting quote featured on page 24 of the PDF:<p><div class="quote"><p>We may soon store library catalogs, or actual texts, on microprocessor-controlled optical discs to be retrieved and viewed
on the same machines that play feature films and programmed instruction modules.</p></div></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is an interesting quote featured on page 24 of the PDF : We may soon store library catalogs , or actual texts , on microprocessor-controlled optical discs to be retrieved and viewed on the same machines that play feature films and programmed instruction modules .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is an interesting quote featured on page 24 of the PDF:We may soon store library catalogs, or actual texts, on microprocessor-controlled optical discs to be retrieved and viewed
on the same machines that play feature films and programmed instruction modules.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31195088</id>
	<title>1985: Plato + Green Globs  == AWESOME</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266509040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In 1985, after studying advanced algebra in the classroom, we occasionally would adjourn to a back room where we "played" Green Globs running on Plato terminals seeing who could construct an equation that hit the most blobs in one go without hitting a blocker blob. It really was a blast, and honed my understanding of what we learned in class. Didn't really feel like learning, more like competitive fun! Thanks Sharon Dugdale!<br><a href="http://www.greenglobs.net/" title="greenglobs.net" rel="nofollow">http://www.greenglobs.net/</a> [greenglobs.net]<br><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLATO\_(computer\_system)" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLATO\_(computer\_system)</a> [wikipedia.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In 1985 , after studying advanced algebra in the classroom , we occasionally would adjourn to a back room where we " played " Green Globs running on Plato terminals seeing who could construct an equation that hit the most blobs in one go without hitting a blocker blob .
It really was a blast , and honed my understanding of what we learned in class .
Did n't really feel like learning , more like competitive fun !
Thanks Sharon Dugdale ! http : //www.greenglobs.net/ [ greenglobs.net ] http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLATO \ _ ( computer \ _system ) [ wikipedia.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In 1985, after studying advanced algebra in the classroom, we occasionally would adjourn to a back room where we "played" Green Globs running on Plato terminals seeing who could construct an equation that hit the most blobs in one go without hitting a blocker blob.
It really was a blast, and honed my understanding of what we learned in class.
Didn't really feel like learning, more like competitive fun!
Thanks Sharon Dugdale!http://www.greenglobs.net/ [greenglobs.net]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLATO\_(computer\_system) [wikipedia.org]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31195340</id>
	<title>Re:Retro Computer News</title>
	<author>Beetle B.</author>
	<datestamp>1266510900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't forget <a href="http://www.atarimagazines.com/creative/" title="atarimagazines.com">Creative Computing!</a> [atarimagazines.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't forget Creative Computing !
[ atarimagazines.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't forget Creative Computing!
[atarimagazines.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192512</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31193238</id>
	<title>Re:using technology effectively in education</title>
	<author>Dunbal</author>
	<datestamp>1266497400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>White boards are slightly more effective than chalk boards; they're a technological improvement.</i></p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Yes they are. Chalk dust would give you allergies, while marker fumes will get you high. Vast improvement.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>White boards are slightly more effective than chalk boards ; they 're a technological improvement .
      Yes they are .
Chalk dust would give you allergies , while marker fumes will get you high .
Vast improvement .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>White boards are slightly more effective than chalk boards; they're a technological improvement.
      Yes they are.
Chalk dust would give you allergies, while marker fumes will get you high.
Vast improvement.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192454</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31193910</id>
	<title>Re:I tried to ford the river...</title>
	<author>bdlarkin</author>
	<datestamp>1266501480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Oooh, it's a sunny day, I think I'll make 6 glasses of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemonade\_Stand" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">lemonade</a> [wikipedia.org] today</htmltext>
<tokenext>Oooh , it 's a sunny day , I think I 'll make 6 glasses of lemonade [ wikipedia.org ] today</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Oooh, it's a sunny day, I think I'll make 6 glasses of lemonade [wikipedia.org] today</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192412</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31200234</id>
	<title>Computers will NEVER be used well in schools...</title>
	<author>Slugster</author>
	<datestamp>1266599640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>...until textbooks are all available in electronic form. <br>
<br>
Now (at least in the US) most are not, due to textbook publisher's concerns over pirating. They offer supplementary material, and sometimes even material or quizzes that they host and manage on their own servers (but that is password-locked, and only valid for one course's length, so EVERY student MUST buy a new textbook &amp; CD, just to get a valid online password). But the whole contents of the textbook are never available, and it's no mistake.<br>
<br>
Why are kids still hefting around bookbags, when all this shit will fit on a single 16gb SD card?
<br>
<br>
I'm not usually a fan of government interference, but this is one place I think really could benefit from it: make a federal laws that says textbook publishers either put out 100\% electronic versions, or their books cannot be used at any school that is accredited by the Dept of Education at all.
<br>
~</htmltext>
<tokenext>...until textbooks are all available in electronic form .
Now ( at least in the US ) most are not , due to textbook publisher 's concerns over pirating .
They offer supplementary material , and sometimes even material or quizzes that they host and manage on their own servers ( but that is password-locked , and only valid for one course 's length , so EVERY student MUST buy a new textbook &amp; CD , just to get a valid online password ) .
But the whole contents of the textbook are never available , and it 's no mistake .
Why are kids still hefting around bookbags , when all this shit will fit on a single 16gb SD card ?
I 'm not usually a fan of government interference , but this is one place I think really could benefit from it : make a federal laws that says textbook publishers either put out 100 \ % electronic versions , or their books can not be used at any school that is accredited by the Dept of Education at all .
~</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...until textbooks are all available in electronic form.
Now (at least in the US) most are not, due to textbook publisher's concerns over pirating.
They offer supplementary material, and sometimes even material or quizzes that they host and manage on their own servers (but that is password-locked, and only valid for one course's length, so EVERY student MUST buy a new textbook &amp; CD, just to get a valid online password).
But the whole contents of the textbook are never available, and it's no mistake.
Why are kids still hefting around bookbags, when all this shit will fit on a single 16gb SD card?
I'm not usually a fan of government interference, but this is one place I think really could benefit from it: make a federal laws that says textbook publishers either put out 100\% electronic versions, or their books cannot be used at any school that is accredited by the Dept of Education at all.
~</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31195694</id>
	<title>3.54 MB?</title>
	<author>aldld</author>
	<datestamp>1266514320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>3.54MB for a newsletter? And from the '80s, I bet that must have been <em>huge</em>!</p><p>Yeah, I'm typing this just as it's downloading.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>3.54MB for a newsletter ?
And from the '80s , I bet that must have been huge ! Yeah , I 'm typing this just as it 's downloading .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>3.54MB for a newsletter?
And from the '80s, I bet that must have been huge!Yeah, I'm typing this just as it's downloading.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192958</id>
	<title>Re:older computers are better teaching tools</title>
	<author>phantomfive</author>
	<datestamp>1266496200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>That is the awesomest idea ever. I am going to do it for my kids.</htmltext>
<tokenext>That is the awesomest idea ever .
I am going to do it for my kids .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That is the awesomest idea ever.
I am going to do it for my kids.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192440</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31195994</id>
	<title>We can't predict for shit</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266518640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Whenever I look back through history like this, I get the sense that no one really knows what the hell they're talking about. People can't predict their way out of a paper bag. Whether it's economics, weather, technology or whatever, we're just really, really bad at it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Whenever I look back through history like this , I get the sense that no one really knows what the hell they 're talking about .
People ca n't predict their way out of a paper bag .
Whether it 's economics , weather , technology or whatever , we 're just really , really bad at it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Whenever I look back through history like this, I get the sense that no one really knows what the hell they're talking about.
People can't predict their way out of a paper bag.
Whether it's economics, weather, technology or whatever, we're just really, really bad at it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192340</id>
	<title>Effectively?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266493140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>Does anybody actually believe that we have progressed significantly in our use of tech to educate? I sure don't.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Does anybody actually believe that we have progressed significantly in our use of tech to educate ?
I sure do n't .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Does anybody actually believe that we have progressed significantly in our use of tech to educate?
I sure don't.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31198240</id>
	<title>But are they a pedagogical improvment?</title>
	<author>fantomas</author>
	<datestamp>1266589320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>But do they actually improve teaching and learning? Fair call that slashdot posters are chiefly concerned with technologies, but in terms of learning and teaching you've got to ask if there are pedagogical improvements brought about by introducing the technology. Otherwise it's just a waste of money.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>But do they actually improve teaching and learning ?
Fair call that slashdot posters are chiefly concerned with technologies , but in terms of learning and teaching you 've got to ask if there are pedagogical improvements brought about by introducing the technology .
Otherwise it 's just a waste of money .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But do they actually improve teaching and learning?
Fair call that slashdot posters are chiefly concerned with technologies, but in terms of learning and teaching you've got to ask if there are pedagogical improvements brought about by introducing the technology.
Otherwise it's just a waste of money.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192454</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31200418</id>
	<title>Wombat Education Success</title>
	<author>Javarufus</author>
	<datestamp>1266600360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Back in the early 80's, we'd rotary dial into the university computer, slap the phone down into the modem and play Wombat.  What a breakthrough in adolescent education.</p><p>I don't remember doing anything else in school besides sneaking away to play Wombat and combing around the university computer system finding out all sorts of tricks, new games, etc.  It was great - it was unregulated - it was unprotected - it was all wide open.  Truly an open system that hadn't been comprimised by those with malicious intent or those trying to sell you crap that you didn't need.</p><p>Then, in high school, I was expected to be able to find a date for the Prom?  Forget it.  I'd rather play with computers.</p><p>Going on this, getting my parents to invest in computers (Mircosoft) and majoring in CS and Engineering, my parents and I are now sitting on a heap of cash.</p><p>Lesson leared?  Yes.  Design truly open systems.  Harden them down to prevent malicious usage.  Get rid of all the other BS involved.  Above all, find something that you love to do and pursue it and don't let anyone get in your way.  Computers did that for me.  Hopefully they'll help someone else out in the same way if those in charge get their act together and make good use out of what computers have to offer.</p><p><i>I have a drinking problem:  Two hands and one mouth.</i></p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Back in the early 80 's , we 'd rotary dial into the university computer , slap the phone down into the modem and play Wombat .
What a breakthrough in adolescent education.I do n't remember doing anything else in school besides sneaking away to play Wombat and combing around the university computer system finding out all sorts of tricks , new games , etc .
It was great - it was unregulated - it was unprotected - it was all wide open .
Truly an open system that had n't been comprimised by those with malicious intent or those trying to sell you crap that you did n't need.Then , in high school , I was expected to be able to find a date for the Prom ?
Forget it .
I 'd rather play with computers.Going on this , getting my parents to invest in computers ( Mircosoft ) and majoring in CS and Engineering , my parents and I are now sitting on a heap of cash.Lesson leared ?
Yes. Design truly open systems .
Harden them down to prevent malicious usage .
Get rid of all the other BS involved .
Above all , find something that you love to do and pursue it and do n't let anyone get in your way .
Computers did that for me .
Hopefully they 'll help someone else out in the same way if those in charge get their act together and make good use out of what computers have to offer.I have a drinking problem : Two hands and one mouth .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Back in the early 80's, we'd rotary dial into the university computer, slap the phone down into the modem and play Wombat.
What a breakthrough in adolescent education.I don't remember doing anything else in school besides sneaking away to play Wombat and combing around the university computer system finding out all sorts of tricks, new games, etc.
It was great - it was unregulated - it was unprotected - it was all wide open.
Truly an open system that hadn't been comprimised by those with malicious intent or those trying to sell you crap that you didn't need.Then, in high school, I was expected to be able to find a date for the Prom?
Forget it.
I'd rather play with computers.Going on this, getting my parents to invest in computers (Mircosoft) and majoring in CS and Engineering, my parents and I are now sitting on a heap of cash.Lesson leared?
Yes.  Design truly open systems.
Harden them down to prevent malicious usage.
Get rid of all the other BS involved.
Above all, find something that you love to do and pursue it and don't let anyone get in your way.
Computers did that for me.
Hopefully they'll help someone else out in the same way if those in charge get their act together and make good use out of what computers have to offer.I have a drinking problem:  Two hands and one mouth.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192534</id>
	<title>Re:Effectively?</title>
	<author>moteyalpha</author>
	<datestamp>1266494040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I wish we had this from MIT when I was in school.
<a href="http://web.sls.csail.mit.edu/lectures/" title="mit.edu">http://web.sls.csail.mit.edu/lectures/</a> [mit.edu]
Strang, Lewin and others are really good teachers
UCLA and Stanford also have on line courses.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I wish we had this from MIT when I was in school .
http : //web.sls.csail.mit.edu/lectures/ [ mit.edu ] Strang , Lewin and others are really good teachers UCLA and Stanford also have on line courses .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I wish we had this from MIT when I was in school.
http://web.sls.csail.mit.edu/lectures/ [mit.edu]
Strang, Lewin and others are really good teachers
UCLA and Stanford also have on line courses.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192340</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31194592</id>
	<title>Re:older computers are better teaching tools</title>
	<author>NoMaster</author>
	<datestamp>1266505800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><a href="http://home.micros.users.btopenworld.com/zx80/zx80.html" title="btopenworld.com">How to build your own ZX80/ZX81</a> [btopenworld.com].</p><p>Probably a bit less kit-like than you're after, but eminently doable. Burning the eprom is probably the 'hardest' part; the rest is just painstaking detail. I've been meaning to build one for a few years now but originally work, and now study, keep getting in the way.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How to build your own ZX80/ZX81 [ btopenworld.com ] .Probably a bit less kit-like than you 're after , but eminently doable .
Burning the eprom is probably the 'hardest ' part ; the rest is just painstaking detail .
I 've been meaning to build one for a few years now but originally work , and now study , keep getting in the way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How to build your own ZX80/ZX81 [btopenworld.com].Probably a bit less kit-like than you're after, but eminently doable.
Burning the eprom is probably the 'hardest' part; the rest is just painstaking detail.
I've been meaning to build one for a few years now but originally work, and now study, keep getting in the way.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31193284</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31200014</id>
	<title>Re:Effectively?</title>
	<author>Narpak</author>
	<datestamp>1266598560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Does anybody actually believe that we have progressed significantly in our use of tech to educate? I sure don't.</p></div><p>As far as organizing and accessing schedules and course information it definitely have. When I attended university a few years back we used <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itslearning" title="wikipedia.org">It's Learning</a> [wikipedia.org] a lot. It gave us access to the lecture notes, sub-forums for specific courses, ability to send messages and organize study groups, listed possible sources of material, and we could deliver our papers through the system as well. All in all that I would call that a definite boon for many students. <br> <br>
Of course I would happily claim that computers, as regards to incorporation into lectures and classes themselves, could be done better. At the present time I think one of the major problems is a lack of good software tailored for the job. Interactive Educational Software is in many ways a new thing, little resources are dedicated to researching and developing such tools, and few good examples exist to day; <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immune\_Attack" title="wikipedia.org">Immune Attack</a> [wikipedia.org] apparently being one of the exceptions. In the end, I believe, that it is a matter of technological progress, and perhaps some generational shifts among the teaching staff, before computers can truly become an enhancing part of the educational process.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Does anybody actually believe that we have progressed significantly in our use of tech to educate ?
I sure do n't.As far as organizing and accessing schedules and course information it definitely have .
When I attended university a few years back we used It 's Learning [ wikipedia.org ] a lot .
It gave us access to the lecture notes , sub-forums for specific courses , ability to send messages and organize study groups , listed possible sources of material , and we could deliver our papers through the system as well .
All in all that I would call that a definite boon for many students .
Of course I would happily claim that computers , as regards to incorporation into lectures and classes themselves , could be done better .
At the present time I think one of the major problems is a lack of good software tailored for the job .
Interactive Educational Software is in many ways a new thing , little resources are dedicated to researching and developing such tools , and few good examples exist to day ; Immune Attack [ wikipedia.org ] apparently being one of the exceptions .
In the end , I believe , that it is a matter of technological progress , and perhaps some generational shifts among the teaching staff , before computers can truly become an enhancing part of the educational process .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Does anybody actually believe that we have progressed significantly in our use of tech to educate?
I sure don't.As far as organizing and accessing schedules and course information it definitely have.
When I attended university a few years back we used It's Learning [wikipedia.org] a lot.
It gave us access to the lecture notes, sub-forums for specific courses, ability to send messages and organize study groups, listed possible sources of material, and we could deliver our papers through the system as well.
All in all that I would call that a definite boon for many students.
Of course I would happily claim that computers, as regards to incorporation into lectures and classes themselves, could be done better.
At the present time I think one of the major problems is a lack of good software tailored for the job.
Interactive Educational Software is in many ways a new thing, little resources are dedicated to researching and developing such tools, and few good examples exist to day; Immune Attack [wikipedia.org] apparently being one of the exceptions.
In the end, I believe, that it is a matter of technological progress, and perhaps some generational shifts among the teaching staff, before computers can truly become an enhancing part of the educational process.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192340</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31194470</id>
	<title>Re:Effectively?</title>
	<author>dangitman</author>
	<datestamp>1266505020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Textbooks can't do that nearly as well as the primary source video footage taken in 1905 and 1906.</p></div><p>They had video cameras in 1905 and 1906? Wow, education must be getting pretty bad.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Textbooks ca n't do that nearly as well as the primary source video footage taken in 1905 and 1906.They had video cameras in 1905 and 1906 ?
Wow , education must be getting pretty bad .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Textbooks can't do that nearly as well as the primary source video footage taken in 1905 and 1906.They had video cameras in 1905 and 1906?
Wow, education must be getting pretty bad.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192586</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192398</id>
	<title>We've tried a lot of stuff</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266493380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We've tried just about everything over the years.  We haven't found anything really amazing.  Computers are not the royal road to learning.</p><p>Computers are good at learning management: Blackboard, Angel, Moodle, Desire2Learn etc.</p><p>Computers are good at drill type activities.</p><p>Computers are not much better than any other type of distance education.  Most people prefer conventional classroom/lab education to computerized delivery.  We've spent beaucoup bucks on experiments and most of those have not delivered on their promise.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We 've tried just about everything over the years .
We have n't found anything really amazing .
Computers are not the royal road to learning.Computers are good at learning management : Blackboard , Angel , Moodle , Desire2Learn etc.Computers are good at drill type activities.Computers are not much better than any other type of distance education .
Most people prefer conventional classroom/lab education to computerized delivery .
We 've spent beaucoup bucks on experiments and most of those have not delivered on their promise .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We've tried just about everything over the years.
We haven't found anything really amazing.
Computers are not the royal road to learning.Computers are good at learning management: Blackboard, Angel, Moodle, Desire2Learn etc.Computers are good at drill type activities.Computers are not much better than any other type of distance education.
Most people prefer conventional classroom/lab education to computerized delivery.
We've spent beaucoup bucks on experiments and most of those have not delivered on their promise.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192556</id>
	<title>I was there, it was boring</title>
	<author>garyisabusyguy</author>
	<datestamp>1266494220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In 1981 my high school had one terminal to the district mini and one trs-80. The only use that I found for it was a source of tape and punch-outs to throw at school events.</p><p>In college (first year electrical engineering) I had no interaction with any computer system that was not running a game program.</p><p>It was not until years later (after dropping out of college) that I found a use for my old HP-12C. I was running an instrument on a survey crew and I got sick of waiting on crew chiefs to work the angles in their 41-CV's, so I wrote a proram for myself on the 12-C to calculate angles and short chords for setting pins on road construction.</p><p>That led to the past twenty years of computer programming (cogo to gis and finally database programming). I honestly wish that I had learned the joys of programming years earlier, but the educational system (as presented in highschool and college) did absolutely nothing to spark that fire.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In 1981 my high school had one terminal to the district mini and one trs-80 .
The only use that I found for it was a source of tape and punch-outs to throw at school events.In college ( first year electrical engineering ) I had no interaction with any computer system that was not running a game program.It was not until years later ( after dropping out of college ) that I found a use for my old HP-12C .
I was running an instrument on a survey crew and I got sick of waiting on crew chiefs to work the angles in their 41-CV 's , so I wrote a proram for myself on the 12-C to calculate angles and short chords for setting pins on road construction.That led to the past twenty years of computer programming ( cogo to gis and finally database programming ) .
I honestly wish that I had learned the joys of programming years earlier , but the educational system ( as presented in highschool and college ) did absolutely nothing to spark that fire .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In 1981 my high school had one terminal to the district mini and one trs-80.
The only use that I found for it was a source of tape and punch-outs to throw at school events.In college (first year electrical engineering) I had no interaction with any computer system that was not running a game program.It was not until years later (after dropping out of college) that I found a use for my old HP-12C.
I was running an instrument on a survey crew and I got sick of waiting on crew chiefs to work the angles in their 41-CV's, so I wrote a proram for myself on the 12-C to calculate angles and short chords for setting pins on road construction.That led to the past twenty years of computer programming (cogo to gis and finally database programming).
I honestly wish that I had learned the joys of programming years earlier, but the educational system (as presented in highschool and college) did absolutely nothing to spark that fire.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31198870</id>
	<title>Re:Effectively!</title>
	<author>TaoPhoenix</author>
	<datestamp>1266593280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sorry, I respectfully have to disagree here. Computers are a powerhouse for education. I believe the problem is that the optimal teaching styles are far different though.</p><p>(Begin Accent) Back in their day, huge swaths of primary instructional conversations sunk the minute the teacher didn't know an answer, and even more student-student conversations sunk even faster because the students knew far less. The best scenario was that the answer could be dug up in a week by scheduling a visit to that Librarian Who Knew Everything. (Dying breed, those. Ever met one? Knows six languages cold and could swear in three more, knew the equivalent of four bachelor's degrees under the radar, and then became a rebel and went into Library Science.)</p><p>Now, for the spot questions, *anyone* can shut down the silly squabbles. Done right, that should free the teacher for the really tough questions.</p><p>I've learned more in the last 5 years lurking on the net than I did for 20 years prior. Memes aside, here on The Dot we get monopolistic theory of markets, civics updates on the dumber things lawmakers keep trying to push through, technological implementation with counter horror stories, etc.</p><p>The new distractions that come with tech like texting are red herrings.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sorry , I respectfully have to disagree here .
Computers are a powerhouse for education .
I believe the problem is that the optimal teaching styles are far different though .
( Begin Accent ) Back in their day , huge swaths of primary instructional conversations sunk the minute the teacher did n't know an answer , and even more student-student conversations sunk even faster because the students knew far less .
The best scenario was that the answer could be dug up in a week by scheduling a visit to that Librarian Who Knew Everything .
( Dying breed , those .
Ever met one ?
Knows six languages cold and could swear in three more , knew the equivalent of four bachelor 's degrees under the radar , and then became a rebel and went into Library Science .
) Now , for the spot questions , * anyone * can shut down the silly squabbles .
Done right , that should free the teacher for the really tough questions.I 've learned more in the last 5 years lurking on the net than I did for 20 years prior .
Memes aside , here on The Dot we get monopolistic theory of markets , civics updates on the dumber things lawmakers keep trying to push through , technological implementation with counter horror stories , etc.The new distractions that come with tech like texting are red herrings .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sorry, I respectfully have to disagree here.
Computers are a powerhouse for education.
I believe the problem is that the optimal teaching styles are far different though.
(Begin Accent) Back in their day, huge swaths of primary instructional conversations sunk the minute the teacher didn't know an answer, and even more student-student conversations sunk even faster because the students knew far less.
The best scenario was that the answer could be dug up in a week by scheduling a visit to that Librarian Who Knew Everything.
(Dying breed, those.
Ever met one?
Knows six languages cold and could swear in three more, knew the equivalent of four bachelor's degrees under the radar, and then became a rebel and went into Library Science.
)Now, for the spot questions, *anyone* can shut down the silly squabbles.
Done right, that should free the teacher for the really tough questions.I've learned more in the last 5 years lurking on the net than I did for 20 years prior.
Memes aside, here on The Dot we get monopolistic theory of markets, civics updates on the dumber things lawmakers keep trying to push through, technological implementation with counter horror stories, etc.The new distractions that come with tech like texting are red herrings.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192586</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31197266</id>
	<title>Problem is it is tech-led...</title>
	<author>fantomas</author>
	<datestamp>1266578160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem is often that the use of technology in education is technology led rather than pedagogy led. Education needs to be led by thinking about how we can best teach our children and help them to learn (whatever your philosophy on what this entails), and use whatever technologies are appropriate.  In too many cases it's tempting to start from a technology perspective of trying to force education to fit round a technology just because it's available and people think it's cool. Technologies offer affordances but they have to be understood as only part of a wider socio-technical system.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is often that the use of technology in education is technology led rather than pedagogy led .
Education needs to be led by thinking about how we can best teach our children and help them to learn ( whatever your philosophy on what this entails ) , and use whatever technologies are appropriate .
In too many cases it 's tempting to start from a technology perspective of trying to force education to fit round a technology just because it 's available and people think it 's cool .
Technologies offer affordances but they have to be understood as only part of a wider socio-technical system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is often that the use of technology in education is technology led rather than pedagogy led.
Education needs to be led by thinking about how we can best teach our children and help them to learn (whatever your philosophy on what this entails), and use whatever technologies are appropriate.
In too many cases it's tempting to start from a technology perspective of trying to force education to fit round a technology just because it's available and people think it's cool.
Technologies offer affordances but they have to be understood as only part of a wider socio-technical system.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192340</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31197916</id>
	<title>Re:using technology effectively in education</title>
	<author>SharpFang</author>
	<datestamp>1266585780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...until someone prank-replaces a whiteboard marker with a waterproof one.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...until someone prank-replaces a whiteboard marker with a waterproof one .
; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...until someone prank-replaces a whiteboard marker with a waterproof one.
;)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192454</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31194958</id>
	<title>Re:Effectively?</title>
	<author>MobileTatsu-NJG</author>
	<datestamp>1266508140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Does anybody actually believe that we have progressed significantly in our use of tech to educate? I sure don't.</p></div><p>Kids are using computers now a lot more than they were 10 years ago.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Does anybody actually believe that we have progressed significantly in our use of tech to educate ?
I sure do n't.Kids are using computers now a lot more than they were 10 years ago .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Does anybody actually believe that we have progressed significantly in our use of tech to educate?
I sure don't.Kids are using computers now a lot more than they were 10 years ago.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192340</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192336</id>
	<title>Excellent!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266493140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Now I can angrily wave a holographic display of this PDF while yelling at the soccer-robot-playing kids to get off my xerotolerant "lawn" area.</p><p>Speaking as a child of the 80s, I love the future.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Now I can angrily wave a holographic display of this PDF while yelling at the soccer-robot-playing kids to get off my xerotolerant " lawn " area.Speaking as a child of the 80s , I love the future .
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Now I can angrily wave a holographic display of this PDF while yelling at the soccer-robot-playing kids to get off my xerotolerant "lawn" area.Speaking as a child of the 80s, I love the future.
:)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31194654</id>
	<title>Re:using technology effectively in education</title>
	<author>NewbieProgrammerMan</author>
	<datestamp>1266506220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p><div class="quote"><p>It's a reminder from 30 years ago that we are still not using technology effectively in education.</p></div><p>Yes we are.  White boards are slightly more effective than chalk boards; they're a technological improvement.</p></div><p>Yes, and instead of buying a $0.79 box of chalk per classroom every 2 months, you get to buy a $13.49 pack of 8 markers that will dry out in a month (if you've successfully trained everyone to put the caps on them while not actively writing).  Go technology!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's a reminder from 30 years ago that we are still not using technology effectively in education.Yes we are .
White boards are slightly more effective than chalk boards ; they 're a technological improvement.Yes , and instead of buying a $ 0.79 box of chalk per classroom every 2 months , you get to buy a $ 13.49 pack of 8 markers that will dry out in a month ( if you 've successfully trained everyone to put the caps on them while not actively writing ) .
Go technology !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's a reminder from 30 years ago that we are still not using technology effectively in education.Yes we are.
White boards are slightly more effective than chalk boards; they're a technological improvement.Yes, and instead of buying a $0.79 box of chalk per classroom every 2 months, you get to buy a $13.49 pack of 8 markers that will dry out in a month (if you've successfully trained everyone to put the caps on them while not actively writing).
Go technology!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192454</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31195352</id>
	<title>Classroom of the Future (1989)</title>
	<author>dmorin</author>
	<datestamp>1266511020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I was in college from 1987-1991, and my "major qualifying project" (Worcester Polytech) was a workshop where I brought together local high school teachers from math, computer science and social studies for the day.  I pitched the idea of a whole new type of computer classroom, state of the art, where everything was networked not just with their local counterparts but with similar schools all around the world.  I talked to them about massive scale datasets, public information records, voting data, etc etc etc etc... the ability to run your own queries, to question what you're being handed in the newspaper every day.  In other words, a whole bunch of stuff we take for granted these days - but a good number of years before the Web took off.
<p>
The computer science and math teachers heard "new computers" and said, "Great, we'll take it."
</p><p>
Then I dropped the surprise on them, and said that this new lab was for the social studies teachers. That this was about exploring all areas of study with computers - art, literature, politics, you name it.  "Nonono," said the CS people, "You've been misinformed.  *We* get the computers."
</p><p>
That did not surprise me.  What surprised me is when the social studies teachers said "Yeah, they get the computers.  We don't want them."  All they saw was a burden, changes to the curriculum, technology they did not understand, and a new dependency on their coworkers to keep the machines up and running.  They were perfectly happy to let the CS teachers teach programming and that would be that.  No need for computers in any of the social studies (and, by extension, humanities) classrooms.
</p><p>
Funny how far we *have* come, honestly.  If only we could take what's out there on the net at our fingertips, and integrate it more directly into students' education.
</p><p>
[ At the time, in my neighborhood, the "state of the art" schools had a Mac hooked up to a laser disc player, and the students would put together multimedia reports on John F Kennedy to present to the class.  The more typical schools had text terminals of maybe the 286 variety, and would be taught keyboarding and other office skills. ]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was in college from 1987-1991 , and my " major qualifying project " ( Worcester Polytech ) was a workshop where I brought together local high school teachers from math , computer science and social studies for the day .
I pitched the idea of a whole new type of computer classroom , state of the art , where everything was networked not just with their local counterparts but with similar schools all around the world .
I talked to them about massive scale datasets , public information records , voting data , etc etc etc etc... the ability to run your own queries , to question what you 're being handed in the newspaper every day .
In other words , a whole bunch of stuff we take for granted these days - but a good number of years before the Web took off .
The computer science and math teachers heard " new computers " and said , " Great , we 'll take it .
" Then I dropped the surprise on them , and said that this new lab was for the social studies teachers .
That this was about exploring all areas of study with computers - art , literature , politics , you name it .
" Nonono , " said the CS people , " You 've been misinformed .
* We * get the computers .
" That did not surprise me .
What surprised me is when the social studies teachers said " Yeah , they get the computers .
We do n't want them .
" All they saw was a burden , changes to the curriculum , technology they did not understand , and a new dependency on their coworkers to keep the machines up and running .
They were perfectly happy to let the CS teachers teach programming and that would be that .
No need for computers in any of the social studies ( and , by extension , humanities ) classrooms .
Funny how far we * have * come , honestly .
If only we could take what 's out there on the net at our fingertips , and integrate it more directly into students ' education .
[ At the time , in my neighborhood , the " state of the art " schools had a Mac hooked up to a laser disc player , and the students would put together multimedia reports on John F Kennedy to present to the class .
The more typical schools had text terminals of maybe the 286 variety , and would be taught keyboarding and other office skills .
]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was in college from 1987-1991, and my "major qualifying project" (Worcester Polytech) was a workshop where I brought together local high school teachers from math, computer science and social studies for the day.
I pitched the idea of a whole new type of computer classroom, state of the art, where everything was networked not just with their local counterparts but with similar schools all around the world.
I talked to them about massive scale datasets, public information records, voting data, etc etc etc etc... the ability to run your own queries, to question what you're being handed in the newspaper every day.
In other words, a whole bunch of stuff we take for granted these days - but a good number of years before the Web took off.
The computer science and math teachers heard "new computers" and said, "Great, we'll take it.
"

Then I dropped the surprise on them, and said that this new lab was for the social studies teachers.
That this was about exploring all areas of study with computers - art, literature, politics, you name it.
"Nonono," said the CS people, "You've been misinformed.
*We* get the computers.
"

That did not surprise me.
What surprised me is when the social studies teachers said "Yeah, they get the computers.
We don't want them.
"  All they saw was a burden, changes to the curriculum, technology they did not understand, and a new dependency on their coworkers to keep the machines up and running.
They were perfectly happy to let the CS teachers teach programming and that would be that.
No need for computers in any of the social studies (and, by extension, humanities) classrooms.
Funny how far we *have* come, honestly.
If only we could take what's out there on the net at our fingertips, and integrate it more directly into students' education.
[ At the time, in my neighborhood, the "state of the art" schools had a Mac hooked up to a laser disc player, and the students would put together multimedia reports on John F Kennedy to present to the class.
The more typical schools had text terminals of maybe the 286 variety, and would be taught keyboarding and other office skills.
]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31193212</id>
	<title>And...</title>
	<author>kj\_kabaje</author>
	<datestamp>1266497280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>we are using technology effectively in education now?  Most of what I've seen is the  adaption of old tools and methods with very little new.</htmltext>
<tokenext>we are using technology effectively in education now ?
Most of what I 've seen is the adaption of old tools and methods with very little new .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>we are using technology effectively in education now?
Most of what I've seen is the  adaption of old tools and methods with very little new.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192704</id>
	<title>Recursive History</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266495060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>BWA HA HA HA LOOK AT HOW OLD EVERYTHING WAS THIRTY YEARS AGO DURR HURR <b>HURRRRRRRRRR</b> that's just so goddamned hilarious the millionth or so article like this we've seen!</p><p>I'm glad to see we're permanently locked in the past insofar as what amuses us.  I can't wait until another thirty years down the line when we look back on us looking back on the past because we don't have any history of our own to make.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>BWA HA HA HA LOOK AT HOW OLD EVERYTHING WAS THIRTY YEARS AGO DURR HURR HURRRRRRRRRR that 's just so goddamned hilarious the millionth or so article like this we 've seen ! I 'm glad to see we 're permanently locked in the past insofar as what amuses us .
I ca n't wait until another thirty years down the line when we look back on us looking back on the past because we do n't have any history of our own to make .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>BWA HA HA HA LOOK AT HOW OLD EVERYTHING WAS THIRTY YEARS AGO DURR HURR HURRRRRRRRRR that's just so goddamned hilarious the millionth or so article like this we've seen!I'm glad to see we're permanently locked in the past insofar as what amuses us.
I can't wait until another thirty years down the line when we look back on us looking back on the past because we don't have any history of our own to make.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31195062</id>
	<title>Re:1968</title>
	<author>kencf0618</author>
	<datestamp>1266508860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I attended Greendell Elementary in Palo Alto, California.  Same set-up, same era --my Dad tells me<br>that this was the pilot program for computers in education.  Anyone know anything more?  In any case,<br>those ASR-33 Teletypes were so loud, even we deaf kids could hear them!  The terminals were connected<br>to Stanford University, but all we got out of them was spelling and arithmetic.</p><p>I remember being intensely annoyed that the terminals would instantly spit out WRONG ANSWER --TRY AGAIN,<br>not even allowing you the dignity of completing your mistake, but I had my revenge.  One rainy day they<br>weren't connecting via the acoustic modem.  Each terminal had a PRESS TO START button.  Knowing full well<br>what I was doing, I slowly but surely pressed mine down into the plastic chassis and physically broke the<br>switch.</p><p>"But it said 'Press to start!'"  I haven't played the innocent as well since.</p><p>Epilogue:  I gave my nephews an obsolete IBM ThinkPad last Christmas, figuring that it would get the ball rolling<br>even if they had to get software from eBay.  And indeed they were so intrigued by it that their parents invested<br>in a modern laptop.  They're nine and five --and I can't imagine how their sensibilities shall evolve as they grow<br>up and the technology itself continues to accelerate towards the Singularity.  O brave new world...!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I attended Greendell Elementary in Palo Alto , California .
Same set-up , same era --my Dad tells methat this was the pilot program for computers in education .
Anyone know anything more ?
In any case,those ASR-33 Teletypes were so loud , even we deaf kids could hear them !
The terminals were connectedto Stanford University , but all we got out of them was spelling and arithmetic.I remember being intensely annoyed that the terminals would instantly spit out WRONG ANSWER --TRY AGAIN,not even allowing you the dignity of completing your mistake , but I had my revenge .
One rainy day theywere n't connecting via the acoustic modem .
Each terminal had a PRESS TO START button .
Knowing full wellwhat I was doing , I slowly but surely pressed mine down into the plastic chassis and physically broke theswitch .
" But it said 'Press to start !
' " I have n't played the innocent as well since.Epilogue : I gave my nephews an obsolete IBM ThinkPad last Christmas , figuring that it would get the ball rollingeven if they had to get software from eBay .
And indeed they were so intrigued by it that their parents investedin a modern laptop .
They 're nine and five --and I ca n't imagine how their sensibilities shall evolve as they growup and the technology itself continues to accelerate towards the Singularity .
O brave new world... !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I attended Greendell Elementary in Palo Alto, California.
Same set-up, same era --my Dad tells methat this was the pilot program for computers in education.
Anyone know anything more?
In any case,those ASR-33 Teletypes were so loud, even we deaf kids could hear them!
The terminals were connectedto Stanford University, but all we got out of them was spelling and arithmetic.I remember being intensely annoyed that the terminals would instantly spit out WRONG ANSWER --TRY AGAIN,not even allowing you the dignity of completing your mistake, but I had my revenge.
One rainy day theyweren't connecting via the acoustic modem.
Each terminal had a PRESS TO START button.
Knowing full wellwhat I was doing, I slowly but surely pressed mine down into the plastic chassis and physically broke theswitch.
"But it said 'Press to start!
'"  I haven't played the innocent as well since.Epilogue:  I gave my nephews an obsolete IBM ThinkPad last Christmas, figuring that it would get the ball rollingeven if they had to get software from eBay.
And indeed they were so intrigued by it that their parents investedin a modern laptop.
They're nine and five --and I can't imagine how their sensibilities shall evolve as they growup and the technology itself continues to accelerate towards the Singularity.
O brave new world...!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192540</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31266644</id>
	<title>Re:Excellent!</title>
	<author>Lodragandraoidh</author>
	<datestamp>1265115180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And here I always thought schools were day care (jails) for kids so their parents could go to work...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And here I always thought schools were day care ( jails ) for kids so their parents could go to work.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And here I always thought schools were day care (jails) for kids so their parents could go to work...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31193300</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31199358</id>
	<title>Re:using technology effectively in education</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266595560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I hate whiteboards</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I hate whiteboards</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I hate whiteboards</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192454</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31194616</id>
	<title>Re:Effectively?</title>
	<author>thatskinnyguy</author>
	<datestamp>1266505860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>No. Computers have always served as analogs to manual processes that people can do themselves unless they're in fields like computer science or computer engineering. While they aren't supposed to change the way things are done -in theory- they do make jobs and training for jobs in higher education much easier.</htmltext>
<tokenext>No .
Computers have always served as analogs to manual processes that people can do themselves unless they 're in fields like computer science or computer engineering .
While they are n't supposed to change the way things are done -in theory- they do make jobs and training for jobs in higher education much easier .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No.
Computers have always served as analogs to manual processes that people can do themselves unless they're in fields like computer science or computer engineering.
While they aren't supposed to change the way things are done -in theory- they do make jobs and training for jobs in higher education much easier.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192340</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192326</id>
	<title>We are using it very effectively in education</title>
	<author>nedlohs</author>
	<datestamp>1266493080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>to spy on kids and their families, anyway.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>to spy on kids and their families , anyway .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>to spy on kids and their families, anyway.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31199036</id>
	<title>When I was in high school in the 1990s...</title>
	<author>woolio</author>
	<datestamp>1266594000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When I was in high school in the 1990s, most of the students had TI-85 / TI-89 / TI-92 graphing calculators.</p><p>They used the calculators for not only doing two-digit arithmetic (that they couldn't do in their head), but also for taking derivatives, solving quadratic equations, etc...</p><p>They would also use the calculator's abilities for storing physics notes (basically cheating) or had simple programs that did physics problems for them...</p><p>Anyone with a plain scientific calculator was at a bit of a disadvantage...</p><p>We did have a computer lab, but it was filled with mostly 386s (SX,not DX), and a few 486s (which were ancient even then!)... We used the lab for only learning programming (compiling a 'hello world' PASCAL program in DOS took several seconds).   For grading, we printed out our programs on an old dot-matrix printer that printed about 1 page per minute...</p><p>Needless to say, learning PASCAL programming was an non-required elective...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When I was in high school in the 1990s , most of the students had TI-85 / TI-89 / TI-92 graphing calculators.They used the calculators for not only doing two-digit arithmetic ( that they could n't do in their head ) , but also for taking derivatives , solving quadratic equations , etc...They would also use the calculator 's abilities for storing physics notes ( basically cheating ) or had simple programs that did physics problems for them...Anyone with a plain scientific calculator was at a bit of a disadvantage...We did have a computer lab , but it was filled with mostly 386s ( SX,not DX ) , and a few 486s ( which were ancient even then ! ) .. .
We used the lab for only learning programming ( compiling a 'hello world ' PASCAL program in DOS took several seconds ) .
For grading , we printed out our programs on an old dot-matrix printer that printed about 1 page per minute...Needless to say , learning PASCAL programming was an non-required elective.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I was in high school in the 1990s, most of the students had TI-85 / TI-89 / TI-92 graphing calculators.They used the calculators for not only doing two-digit arithmetic (that they couldn't do in their head), but also for taking derivatives, solving quadratic equations, etc...They would also use the calculator's abilities for storing physics notes (basically cheating) or had simple programs that did physics problems for them...Anyone with a plain scientific calculator was at a bit of a disadvantage...We did have a computer lab, but it was filled with mostly 386s (SX,not DX), and a few 486s (which were ancient even then!)...
We used the lab for only learning programming (compiling a 'hello world' PASCAL program in DOS took several seconds).
For grading, we printed out our programs on an old dot-matrix printer that printed about 1 page per minute...Needless to say, learning PASCAL programming was an non-required elective...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192392</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192742</id>
	<title>Re:Effectively?</title>
	<author>gmuslera</author>
	<datestamp>1266495240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Forget hardware. Just with internet we have a big tool for, well... at least a kind of education, maybe not very utopic, but in several ways far better than we had in the 80s.<br><br>About hardware, still can't tell. I live in Uruguay when most school childrens have XOs, but as it was for most just since last year, can't tell for sure if it will cause a big improvement or not for all yet. But for some it seems to be.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Forget hardware .
Just with internet we have a big tool for , well... at least a kind of education , maybe not very utopic , but in several ways far better than we had in the 80s.About hardware , still ca n't tell .
I live in Uruguay when most school childrens have XOs , but as it was for most just since last year , ca n't tell for sure if it will cause a big improvement or not for all yet .
But for some it seems to be .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Forget hardware.
Just with internet we have a big tool for, well... at least a kind of education, maybe not very utopic, but in several ways far better than we had in the 80s.About hardware, still can't tell.
I live in Uruguay when most school childrens have XOs, but as it was for most just since last year, can't tell for sure if it will cause a big improvement or not for all yet.
But for some it seems to be.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192340</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192676</id>
	<title>Re:It's pathetic where we are today.</title>
	<author>ElectricTurtle</author>
	<datestamp>1266494880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>But dude, DUDE, how would we accommodate backwards compatibility?! You and your attempts to move us forward will invalidate all that expensive, proprietary stuff we bought into which we locked all our data!</htmltext>
<tokenext>But dude , DUDE , how would we accommodate backwards compatibility ? !
You and your attempts to move us forward will invalidate all that expensive , proprietary stuff we bought into which we locked all our data !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But dude, DUDE, how would we accommodate backwards compatibility?!
You and your attempts to move us forward will invalidate all that expensive, proprietary stuff we bought into which we locked all our data!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192424</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31194892</id>
	<title>Re:Effectively?</title>
	<author>commodore64\_love</author>
	<datestamp>1266507540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;They utterly wasted all the money they spent on the computers.</p><p>Government?</p><p>Wasteful?</p><p>No that can't be.  (cough).   Government is supposed to make everything run more efficiently.  Right?  (gag).  Sorry.  I have slight emphysema (cough) that's supposed to be fixed soon, but I'm on a 6-month waiting list with Canadian health services.</p><p>Anyway I don't believe your story about the government school wasting money.  It simple doesn't fit with what we've been told by our beloved parliamentarians.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; They utterly wasted all the money they spent on the computers.Government ? Wasteful ? No that ca n't be .
( cough ) . Government is supposed to make everything run more efficiently .
Right ? ( gag ) .
Sorry. I have slight emphysema ( cough ) that 's supposed to be fixed soon , but I 'm on a 6-month waiting list with Canadian health services.Anyway I do n't believe your story about the government school wasting money .
It simple does n't fit with what we 've been told by our beloved parliamentarians .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;They utterly wasted all the money they spent on the computers.Government?Wasteful?No that can't be.
(cough).   Government is supposed to make everything run more efficiently.
Right?  (gag).
Sorry.  I have slight emphysema (cough) that's supposed to be fixed soon, but I'm on a 6-month waiting list with Canadian health services.Anyway I don't believe your story about the government school wasting money.
It simple doesn't fit with what we've been told by our beloved parliamentarians.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31193758</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31193284</id>
	<title>Re:older computers are better teaching tools</title>
	<author>kzieli</author>
	<datestamp>1266497700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I spent ages a while back looking for an 8bit computer kit. Something I could get and assemble myself and mess about with a little. Regretably no such thing exists in this day and age. It would have been a little fun.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I spent ages a while back looking for an 8bit computer kit .
Something I could get and assemble myself and mess about with a little .
Regretably no such thing exists in this day and age .
It would have been a little fun .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I spent ages a while back looking for an 8bit computer kit.
Something I could get and assemble myself and mess about with a little.
Regretably no such thing exists in this day and age.
It would have been a little fun.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192440</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31194546</id>
	<title>I started w/ MECC</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266505500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The first BASIC program I wrote was on a Teletype ASR-33 hooked up to the MECC time-sharing system.</p><p>Summer school between 6th and 7th grade, IIRC.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The first BASIC program I wrote was on a Teletype ASR-33 hooked up to the MECC time-sharing system.Summer school between 6th and 7th grade , IIRC .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The first BASIC program I wrote was on a Teletype ASR-33 hooked up to the MECC time-sharing system.Summer school between 6th and 7th grade, IIRC.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192922</id>
	<title>Old School Computing</title>
	<author>ddillman</author>
	<datestamp>1266496020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I used the Minnesota Education Computing Consortium timeshare system you speak of (the fax-like terminals).  It had a 300-baud acoustic coupled modem and a large typewriter interfaced as a printer/input device.  I remember accessing chat rooms even back then (I graduated in 1984, so this would have been 1982-4).  That system was kinda clunky, even then.  The computers we used in class were all Apple II+ at that point.  (Yes, the MECC is the same one that produced Oregon Trail...)</htmltext>
<tokenext>I used the Minnesota Education Computing Consortium timeshare system you speak of ( the fax-like terminals ) .
It had a 300-baud acoustic coupled modem and a large typewriter interfaced as a printer/input device .
I remember accessing chat rooms even back then ( I graduated in 1984 , so this would have been 1982-4 ) .
That system was kinda clunky , even then .
The computers we used in class were all Apple II + at that point .
( Yes , the MECC is the same one that produced Oregon Trail... )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I used the Minnesota Education Computing Consortium timeshare system you speak of (the fax-like terminals).
It had a 300-baud acoustic coupled modem and a large typewriter interfaced as a printer/input device.
I remember accessing chat rooms even back then (I graduated in 1984, so this would have been 1982-4).
That system was kinda clunky, even then.
The computers we used in class were all Apple II+ at that point.
(Yes, the MECC is the same one that produced Oregon Trail...)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31194704</id>
	<title>Re:Technology? No Technology?</title>
	<author>NewbieProgrammerMan</author>
	<datestamp>1266506400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>There seems to be this weird trend toward <b>&lt;X&gt;</b> methods simply because they use <b>&lt;X&gt;</b>, not because they work better than other methods.</p></div><p>So...just pretty much what humans tend to do in every other situation, then?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>There seems to be this weird trend toward methods simply because they use , not because they work better than other methods.So...just pretty much what humans tend to do in every other situation , then ?
; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There seems to be this weird trend toward  methods simply because they use , not because they work better than other methods.So...just pretty much what humans tend to do in every other situation, then?
;)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192658</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31195736</id>
	<title>Re:A super calculator</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266514920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Back in 1971, when I was in high school, we had an HP 2116C for any of the students to program via computer cards or paper tape.  After school hours other languages could be loaded because the other three areas for the other high schools in the district did not have to be present and we could program in Algol or FORTRAN.  Howeverm during the normal school day Basic was the only choice for programming.  There were "introduction to programming bag lunch meetings" to help you get started programming.  The high school only had 4 different computer (within the Math department) classes offered.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Back in 1971 , when I was in high school , we had an HP 2116C for any of the students to program via computer cards or paper tape .
After school hours other languages could be loaded because the other three areas for the other high schools in the district did not have to be present and we could program in Algol or FORTRAN .
Howeverm during the normal school day Basic was the only choice for programming .
There were " introduction to programming bag lunch meetings " to help you get started programming .
The high school only had 4 different computer ( within the Math department ) classes offered .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Back in 1971, when I was in high school, we had an HP 2116C for any of the students to program via computer cards or paper tape.
After school hours other languages could be loaded because the other three areas for the other high schools in the district did not have to be present and we could program in Algol or FORTRAN.
Howeverm during the normal school day Basic was the only choice for programming.
There were "introduction to programming bag lunch meetings" to help you get started programming.
The high school only had 4 different computer (within the Math department) classes offered.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192392</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192722</id>
	<title>Re:We are using it very effectively in education</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266495180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>http://www.boingboing.net/2010/02/17/school-used-student.html</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //www.boingboing.net/2010/02/17/school-used-student.html</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://www.boingboing.net/2010/02/17/school-used-student.html</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192326</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31193954</id>
	<title>I swear thats me...</title>
	<author>bdlarkin</author>
	<datestamp>1266501780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I swear that's me in the striped izod with the scowl on my face because the girls are typing something wrong.  The kid is the right age too.

<br>
Has it really been 30 years?

I don't remember being anywhere near Mass. 30 years ago, though...</htmltext>
<tokenext>I swear that 's me in the striped izod with the scowl on my face because the girls are typing something wrong .
The kid is the right age too .
Has it really been 30 years ?
I do n't remember being anywhere near Mass .
30 years ago , though.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I swear that's me in the striped izod with the scowl on my face because the girls are typing something wrong.
The kid is the right age too.
Has it really been 30 years?
I don't remember being anywhere near Mass.
30 years ago, though...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31194966</id>
	<title>Re:It's pathetic where we are today.</title>
	<author>Kenshin</author>
	<datestamp>1266508200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>On one hand, our most popular mobile devices (namely the iPhone and soon the iPad) are extremely locked up and restricted, with the vendor telling you EXACTLY which applications you're allowed to run.</i></p><p>I don't remember being able to run whatever I wanted to on my NES. Nintendo dictated that. (Yes, I'm comparing the iPad and iPhone to a game console, not a general purpose computer.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>On one hand , our most popular mobile devices ( namely the iPhone and soon the iPad ) are extremely locked up and restricted , with the vendor telling you EXACTLY which applications you 're allowed to run.I do n't remember being able to run whatever I wanted to on my NES .
Nintendo dictated that .
( Yes , I 'm comparing the iPad and iPhone to a game console , not a general purpose computer .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>On one hand, our most popular mobile devices (namely the iPhone and soon the iPad) are extremely locked up and restricted, with the vendor telling you EXACTLY which applications you're allowed to run.I don't remember being able to run whatever I wanted to on my NES.
Nintendo dictated that.
(Yes, I'm comparing the iPad and iPhone to a game console, not a general purpose computer.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192424</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192662</id>
	<title>Re:Effectively?</title>
	<author>Red Flayer</author>
	<datestamp>1266494820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>My nieces and nephews of school age definitely make use of tech for schoolwork a lot.  And IMO very effectively.  <br> <br>My oldest nephew recently had a unit on biomes.  It was a six-seek unit based on self-study using multi-media presentations and materials on computers at the school.  Quick students mastered the basic stuff in the first two weeks -- then they were able to dig deeper and study more in-depth over the last month.  Slower students may have taken almost the full time to complete the basic materials, but the nice thing is that they didn't hold back the quick students.  The unit culminated in presentations the students gave utilizing the media they worked with in class, and outside media that was approved by the teacher.  Presentations were live, but the kids used projectors in their presentations... it was awesome.  <br> <br>When I saw my nephew's presentation in December, I recalled when I studied the same stuff in grade school, and there was no comparison.  His experience was richer and deeper than mine -- he learned more, and he enjoyed it more.  And the whole unit was dependent on use of technology.<br> <br>Yes, it's anecdotal, and I'm aware that many (most?) schools don't provide that kind of experience.  But it's amazing to me how far we've come where we're doing it right.</htmltext>
<tokenext>My nieces and nephews of school age definitely make use of tech for schoolwork a lot .
And IMO very effectively .
My oldest nephew recently had a unit on biomes .
It was a six-seek unit based on self-study using multi-media presentations and materials on computers at the school .
Quick students mastered the basic stuff in the first two weeks -- then they were able to dig deeper and study more in-depth over the last month .
Slower students may have taken almost the full time to complete the basic materials , but the nice thing is that they did n't hold back the quick students .
The unit culminated in presentations the students gave utilizing the media they worked with in class , and outside media that was approved by the teacher .
Presentations were live , but the kids used projectors in their presentations... it was awesome .
When I saw my nephew 's presentation in December , I recalled when I studied the same stuff in grade school , and there was no comparison .
His experience was richer and deeper than mine -- he learned more , and he enjoyed it more .
And the whole unit was dependent on use of technology .
Yes , it 's anecdotal , and I 'm aware that many ( most ?
) schools do n't provide that kind of experience .
But it 's amazing to me how far we 've come where we 're doing it right .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My nieces and nephews of school age definitely make use of tech for schoolwork a lot.
And IMO very effectively.
My oldest nephew recently had a unit on biomes.
It was a six-seek unit based on self-study using multi-media presentations and materials on computers at the school.
Quick students mastered the basic stuff in the first two weeks -- then they were able to dig deeper and study more in-depth over the last month.
Slower students may have taken almost the full time to complete the basic materials, but the nice thing is that they didn't hold back the quick students.
The unit culminated in presentations the students gave utilizing the media they worked with in class, and outside media that was approved by the teacher.
Presentations were live, but the kids used projectors in their presentations... it was awesome.
When I saw my nephew's presentation in December, I recalled when I studied the same stuff in grade school, and there was no comparison.
His experience was richer and deeper than mine -- he learned more, and he enjoyed it more.
And the whole unit was dependent on use of technology.
Yes, it's anecdotal, and I'm aware that many (most?
) schools don't provide that kind of experience.
But it's amazing to me how far we've come where we're doing it right.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192340</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192774</id>
	<title>Whitehead</title>
	<author>quotes</author>
	<datestamp>1266495420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>"Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them. " Alfred North Whitehead</htmltext>
<tokenext>" Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them .
" Alfred North Whitehead</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them.
" Alfred North Whitehead</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31200218</id>
	<title>every new media is touted for education</title>
	<author>peter303</author>
	<datestamp>1266599580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>To garner social and investor support for their new media inventions, inventors almost always tout "educational applications" whether these materialize or not. This is how Thomas Edison promoted his phonograph and motion picture projector.  Usually the public is enthralled by the new media and spends excessive money on it.  Then the old media condemns the new media as "idle entertainment".  On the dark side, porn is often an early adapter of new media, e.g. ecommerce and net streaming. The debate continues into this year, 140 years after the phonograph, as some people condemn the movie Avatar (which may be the "breakthrough 3D movie") as an expensive time-waster.</htmltext>
<tokenext>To garner social and investor support for their new media inventions , inventors almost always tout " educational applications " whether these materialize or not .
This is how Thomas Edison promoted his phonograph and motion picture projector .
Usually the public is enthralled by the new media and spends excessive money on it .
Then the old media condemns the new media as " idle entertainment " .
On the dark side , porn is often an early adapter of new media , e.g .
ecommerce and net streaming .
The debate continues into this year , 140 years after the phonograph , as some people condemn the movie Avatar ( which may be the " breakthrough 3D movie " ) as an expensive time-waster .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To garner social and investor support for their new media inventions, inventors almost always tout "educational applications" whether these materialize or not.
This is how Thomas Edison promoted his phonograph and motion picture projector.
Usually the public is enthralled by the new media and spends excessive money on it.
Then the old media condemns the new media as "idle entertainment".
On the dark side, porn is often an early adapter of new media, e.g.
ecommerce and net streaming.
The debate continues into this year, 140 years after the phonograph, as some people condemn the movie Avatar (which may be the "breakthrough 3D movie") as an expensive time-waster.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31193752</id>
	<title>Re:what reminder ?</title>
	<author>tool462</author>
	<datestamp>1266500340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The empty flying-car stall in my garage would agree with you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The empty flying-car stall in my garage would agree with you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The empty flying-car stall in my garage would agree with you.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192460</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31193300</id>
	<title>Re:Excellent!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266497760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Of course it were all fields around here back then...</p><p>Back in the early 80s when Clive Sinclair's little 8-bit 'micros' were all the rage in the UK, when data storage was on cassette and portable TVs stood in for monitors, 'Sinclair User' magazine used to run a column called 'Sinclairvoyance' (geddit?), which predicted how the White Heat of cheap British computer technology would revolutionise all our lives:</p><p><a href="http://www.sincuser.f9.co.uk/" title="f9.co.uk">http://www.sincuser.f9.co.uk/</a> [f9.co.uk]</p><p>Their predictions about educations were rather wide of the mark (at least so far):</p><p><a href="http://www.sincuser.f9.co.uk/006/sincvoy.htm" title="f9.co.uk">http://www.sincuser.f9.co.uk/006/sincvoy.htm</a> [f9.co.uk]</p><p>'Once the home [computer] schooling idea was accepted, however, the costs of providing education would fall dramatically. Almost the whole of the present system would no longer be needed, with consequent savings in wages and building and maintenance costs. Teachers would be replaced by a handful of people responsible for setting and updating the cassettes and marking the examination cassettes. None of the thousands of ancillary staff - caretakers, cleaners and cooks - would be needed. School transport would become a thing of the past and crossing patrols would no longer halt traffic at the busy times of the day. Additionally, vast areas of land would become available for development.'</p><p>To be fair, they recognised some of the problems with this idea:</p><p>'Schools are much more than places for learning the subjects which appear in the curriculum. They are a major stage in learning social skills. All children make friends in their neighbourhood but most friends are made at school. They also gain by having contact with others from different backgrounds. There are sufficient problems in the world caused by a lack of understanding between groups of people without increasing the divisions by removing an effective way of bringing people together.'</p><p>Some of their other predictions seem rather more prescient, if you replace 'Prestel' with 'Web' and 'Sinclair' with 'PC'. From 1982:</p><p><a href="http://www.sincuser.f9.co.uk/005/sincvoy.htm" title="f9.co.uk">http://www.sincuser.f9.co.uk/005/sincvoy.htm</a> [f9.co.uk]</p><p>'The Typical-Sinclair-Users select a group of holidays in which they are interested and request more details. Those arrive on the screen immediately and are printed out...They make their booking, paying the deposit by debiting their bank account directly by Prestel...As the time for the holiday approaches the TSU family, between playing the latest game of aliens and keeping their household accounts in order, check the weather conditions at their chosen resort and the strength of the peseta against the pound - all available through Prestel...As the TSUs hate shopping, having to push their way through the crowds, they decide to buy all their holiday clothes and equipment by mail order, again using Prestel...The luggage consists of the usual suitcases but also includes a large black briefcase. When they arrive at the airport, they find many other families have the same black briefcases. All are treated with great care, are taken inside the aircraft as hand luggage and stored carefully under the seats...On reaching their hotel everyone immediately rushes to their rooms, where the secret of the black box is revealed. Inside there is a complete Sinclair computer system...The following day the TSU family goes to the beach and, in common with many others, they take their briefcase and spend half the day enjoying the sun, sea and sand and the other half playing with the Sinclair...The case also contains a device which allows the Typical-Sinclair-Users to contact their neighbours via the telephone service or collect any recorded messages on their telephone answering service...If this sounds a little far-fetched, as though the Sinclairvoyance crystal ball is even less clear than usual, consider that most of the items are already in existence and are available either for the Sinclair machines or can be adapted from hardware available with other computers.'</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Of course it were all fields around here back then...Back in the early 80s when Clive Sinclair 's little 8-bit 'micros ' were all the rage in the UK , when data storage was on cassette and portable TVs stood in for monitors , 'Sinclair User ' magazine used to run a column called 'Sinclairvoyance ' ( geddit ?
) , which predicted how the White Heat of cheap British computer technology would revolutionise all our lives : http : //www.sincuser.f9.co.uk/ [ f9.co.uk ] Their predictions about educations were rather wide of the mark ( at least so far ) : http : //www.sincuser.f9.co.uk/006/sincvoy.htm [ f9.co.uk ] 'Once the home [ computer ] schooling idea was accepted , however , the costs of providing education would fall dramatically .
Almost the whole of the present system would no longer be needed , with consequent savings in wages and building and maintenance costs .
Teachers would be replaced by a handful of people responsible for setting and updating the cassettes and marking the examination cassettes .
None of the thousands of ancillary staff - caretakers , cleaners and cooks - would be needed .
School transport would become a thing of the past and crossing patrols would no longer halt traffic at the busy times of the day .
Additionally , vast areas of land would become available for development .
'To be fair , they recognised some of the problems with this idea : 'Schools are much more than places for learning the subjects which appear in the curriculum .
They are a major stage in learning social skills .
All children make friends in their neighbourhood but most friends are made at school .
They also gain by having contact with others from different backgrounds .
There are sufficient problems in the world caused by a lack of understanding between groups of people without increasing the divisions by removing an effective way of bringing people together .
'Some of their other predictions seem rather more prescient , if you replace 'Prestel ' with 'Web ' and 'Sinclair ' with 'PC' .
From 1982 : http : //www.sincuser.f9.co.uk/005/sincvoy.htm [ f9.co.uk ] 'The Typical-Sinclair-Users select a group of holidays in which they are interested and request more details .
Those arrive on the screen immediately and are printed out...They make their booking , paying the deposit by debiting their bank account directly by Prestel...As the time for the holiday approaches the TSU family , between playing the latest game of aliens and keeping their household accounts in order , check the weather conditions at their chosen resort and the strength of the peseta against the pound - all available through Prestel...As the TSUs hate shopping , having to push their way through the crowds , they decide to buy all their holiday clothes and equipment by mail order , again using Prestel...The luggage consists of the usual suitcases but also includes a large black briefcase .
When they arrive at the airport , they find many other families have the same black briefcases .
All are treated with great care , are taken inside the aircraft as hand luggage and stored carefully under the seats...On reaching their hotel everyone immediately rushes to their rooms , where the secret of the black box is revealed .
Inside there is a complete Sinclair computer system...The following day the TSU family goes to the beach and , in common with many others , they take their briefcase and spend half the day enjoying the sun , sea and sand and the other half playing with the Sinclair...The case also contains a device which allows the Typical-Sinclair-Users to contact their neighbours via the telephone service or collect any recorded messages on their telephone answering service...If this sounds a little far-fetched , as though the Sinclairvoyance crystal ball is even less clear than usual , consider that most of the items are already in existence and are available either for the Sinclair machines or can be adapted from hardware available with other computers .
'</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Of course it were all fields around here back then...Back in the early 80s when Clive Sinclair's little 8-bit 'micros' were all the rage in the UK, when data storage was on cassette and portable TVs stood in for monitors, 'Sinclair User' magazine used to run a column called 'Sinclairvoyance' (geddit?
), which predicted how the White Heat of cheap British computer technology would revolutionise all our lives:http://www.sincuser.f9.co.uk/ [f9.co.uk]Their predictions about educations were rather wide of the mark (at least so far):http://www.sincuser.f9.co.uk/006/sincvoy.htm [f9.co.uk]'Once the home [computer] schooling idea was accepted, however, the costs of providing education would fall dramatically.
Almost the whole of the present system would no longer be needed, with consequent savings in wages and building and maintenance costs.
Teachers would be replaced by a handful of people responsible for setting and updating the cassettes and marking the examination cassettes.
None of the thousands of ancillary staff - caretakers, cleaners and cooks - would be needed.
School transport would become a thing of the past and crossing patrols would no longer halt traffic at the busy times of the day.
Additionally, vast areas of land would become available for development.
'To be fair, they recognised some of the problems with this idea:'Schools are much more than places for learning the subjects which appear in the curriculum.
They are a major stage in learning social skills.
All children make friends in their neighbourhood but most friends are made at school.
They also gain by having contact with others from different backgrounds.
There are sufficient problems in the world caused by a lack of understanding between groups of people without increasing the divisions by removing an effective way of bringing people together.
'Some of their other predictions seem rather more prescient, if you replace 'Prestel' with 'Web' and 'Sinclair' with 'PC'.
From 1982:http://www.sincuser.f9.co.uk/005/sincvoy.htm [f9.co.uk]'The Typical-Sinclair-Users select a group of holidays in which they are interested and request more details.
Those arrive on the screen immediately and are printed out...They make their booking, paying the deposit by debiting their bank account directly by Prestel...As the time for the holiday approaches the TSU family, between playing the latest game of aliens and keeping their household accounts in order, check the weather conditions at their chosen resort and the strength of the peseta against the pound - all available through Prestel...As the TSUs hate shopping, having to push their way through the crowds, they decide to buy all their holiday clothes and equipment by mail order, again using Prestel...The luggage consists of the usual suitcases but also includes a large black briefcase.
When they arrive at the airport, they find many other families have the same black briefcases.
All are treated with great care, are taken inside the aircraft as hand luggage and stored carefully under the seats...On reaching their hotel everyone immediately rushes to their rooms, where the secret of the black box is revealed.
Inside there is a complete Sinclair computer system...The following day the TSU family goes to the beach and, in common with many others, they take their briefcase and spend half the day enjoying the sun, sea and sand and the other half playing with the Sinclair...The case also contains a device which allows the Typical-Sinclair-Users to contact their neighbours via the telephone service or collect any recorded messages on their telephone answering service...If this sounds a little far-fetched, as though the Sinclairvoyance crystal ball is even less clear than usual, consider that most of the items are already in existence and are available either for the Sinclair machines or can be adapted from hardware available with other computers.
'</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192336</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31194578</id>
	<title>Re:plus &#231;a change...</title>
	<author>dangitman</author>
	<datestamp>1266505740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>There's a reason why only one person on the bridge has a computer that he can talk to: it'd be cacophonic chaos if everyone were talking at once.</p></div><p>Welcome to 2010. Have you not been out in public recently? Cacophony defines the current era.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's a reason why only one person on the bridge has a computer that he can talk to : it 'd be cacophonic chaos if everyone were talking at once.Welcome to 2010 .
Have you not been out in public recently ?
Cacophony defines the current era .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's a reason why only one person on the bridge has a computer that he can talk to: it'd be cacophonic chaos if everyone were talking at once.Welcome to 2010.
Have you not been out in public recently?
Cacophony defines the current era.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192650</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31197570</id>
	<title>Re:A super calculator</title>
	<author>devonbowen</author>
	<datestamp>1266581820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wow. I was lucky enough to be in a small country school that got one of the Apple IIs that Apple was handing out. No one knew what to do with it so it basically sat in the corner. A friend and I heard there was a computer in the school and figured it would be something like HAL. When we asked if we could use it, the teacher in charge had no clue so she just gave us free reign. Same at the next school I went to where they gave me a key to the lab with about six machines. Then at home where my parents gave me a TRS-80 Model III. Then in college when the department gave me a VAX (which no one was interested in because it ran something called "UNIX"). I basically learned by people giving me machines and getting out of the way. And thank god for that.</p><p>Devon</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Wow .
I was lucky enough to be in a small country school that got one of the Apple IIs that Apple was handing out .
No one knew what to do with it so it basically sat in the corner .
A friend and I heard there was a computer in the school and figured it would be something like HAL .
When we asked if we could use it , the teacher in charge had no clue so she just gave us free reign .
Same at the next school I went to where they gave me a key to the lab with about six machines .
Then at home where my parents gave me a TRS-80 Model III .
Then in college when the department gave me a VAX ( which no one was interested in because it ran something called " UNIX " ) .
I basically learned by people giving me machines and getting out of the way .
And thank god for that.Devon</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wow.
I was lucky enough to be in a small country school that got one of the Apple IIs that Apple was handing out.
No one knew what to do with it so it basically sat in the corner.
A friend and I heard there was a computer in the school and figured it would be something like HAL.
When we asked if we could use it, the teacher in charge had no clue so she just gave us free reign.
Same at the next school I went to where they gave me a key to the lab with about six machines.
Then at home where my parents gave me a TRS-80 Model III.
Then in college when the department gave me a VAX (which no one was interested in because it ran something called "UNIX").
I basically learned by people giving me machines and getting out of the way.
And thank god for that.Devon</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192392</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31197876</id>
	<title>Re:Excellent!</title>
	<author>Mikkeles</author>
	<datestamp>1266585300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Also note that the GRAMAZE BASIC code listing has an error at 580.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Also note that the GRAMAZE BASIC code listing has an error at 580 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Also note that the GRAMAZE BASIC code listing has an error at 580.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192336</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31195234</id>
	<title>Re:Effectively?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266510120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No.  Because progress in education isn't mainly about tech.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No .
Because progress in education is n't mainly about tech .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No.
Because progress in education isn't mainly about tech.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192340</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31193416</id>
	<title>Old School</title>
	<author>warp\_sp</author>
	<datestamp>1266498480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The best my high school could do in 1998 is have a lab with 25 Apple IIGS connected over a phoneline type network to a Mac Classic for printing. All they really taught us to do was play some Odell Lake and type a document with Appleworks. Thankfully I had my own PC at home and taught myself how to use a computer. The school finally invested in some PCs in 99 and even got an ISDN line to use the internet. The upside of all of this is that alot of people taught themselves how to use a computer, and ended up being all the better for it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The best my high school could do in 1998 is have a lab with 25 Apple IIGS connected over a phoneline type network to a Mac Classic for printing .
All they really taught us to do was play some Odell Lake and type a document with Appleworks .
Thankfully I had my own PC at home and taught myself how to use a computer .
The school finally invested in some PCs in 99 and even got an ISDN line to use the internet .
The upside of all of this is that alot of people taught themselves how to use a computer , and ended up being all the better for it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The best my high school could do in 1998 is have a lab with 25 Apple IIGS connected over a phoneline type network to a Mac Classic for printing.
All they really taught us to do was play some Odell Lake and type a document with Appleworks.
Thankfully I had my own PC at home and taught myself how to use a computer.
The school finally invested in some PCs in 99 and even got an ISDN line to use the internet.
The upside of all of this is that alot of people taught themselves how to use a computer, and ended up being all the better for it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192440</id>
	<title>older computers are better teaching tools</title>
	<author>lkcl</author>
	<datestamp>1266493560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>i have a friend who, when his kids asked him "can we av a computer daaad", went up into the loft, got out the TRS80 and a stack of byte magazines.  the kids looked at him in this funny way, but they managed to get the machine working, chewed their way through the programs, and actually had fun with it.</p><p>he then promised them that their next computer (and this was only three years ago) would be a Pentium II.</p><p>my first application i ever saw was a 5 line PET Commodore 3032 BASIC program: for i = 1 to 40 print tab(i), i next i 50 goto 10.  it scrolled numbers across the screen; i understood it instantly, and have never looked back.  i was eight years old, and i was writing my own games within a year, moving @ and * symbols around the screen and firing "." symbols - three kids smashing down keys and jamming the other kids because the keyboard matrix on the Commodore PET wasn't smart enough to detect all the keys we were holding down, simultaneously, trying to blast each other to bits with fullstops.</p><p>with only an 8mhz CPU, 32k of memory, a 40x25 screen and BASIC to play with, there were no "expectations" of fanciness, fonts or even graphics to get in the way.  the learning curve was quick and dirty, and there were no frills to overwhelm you.</p><p>but, most importantly, there wasn't a ton of software ready-made to "spoon-feed" you.</p><p>computer education is no longer education.  at a British Computing Institute talk i attended, someone there made this brilliant analogy.  he said that to parents, he asks them a simple question:</p><p>"computing is no longer taught in schools (parents look quizzical), they are simply 'trained' (parents look like they vaguely get it).  if this was sex instead of computing that was taught in schools, would you prefer that your kids have sex \_education\_ or sex \_training\_? (parents finally get it)".</p><p>putting kids in front of microsoft products does them absolutely no service at all.  it's why the OLPC project was created, to emphasise the goal of \_educating\_ kids about computers, rather than \_training\_ them to merely \_use\_ computers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>i have a friend who , when his kids asked him " can we av a computer daaad " , went up into the loft , got out the TRS80 and a stack of byte magazines .
the kids looked at him in this funny way , but they managed to get the machine working , chewed their way through the programs , and actually had fun with it.he then promised them that their next computer ( and this was only three years ago ) would be a Pentium II.my first application i ever saw was a 5 line PET Commodore 3032 BASIC program : for i = 1 to 40 print tab ( i ) , i next i 50 goto 10. it scrolled numbers across the screen ; i understood it instantly , and have never looked back .
i was eight years old , and i was writing my own games within a year , moving @ and * symbols around the screen and firing " .
" symbols - three kids smashing down keys and jamming the other kids because the keyboard matrix on the Commodore PET was n't smart enough to detect all the keys we were holding down , simultaneously , trying to blast each other to bits with fullstops.with only an 8mhz CPU , 32k of memory , a 40x25 screen and BASIC to play with , there were no " expectations " of fanciness , fonts or even graphics to get in the way .
the learning curve was quick and dirty , and there were no frills to overwhelm you.but , most importantly , there was n't a ton of software ready-made to " spoon-feed " you.computer education is no longer education .
at a British Computing Institute talk i attended , someone there made this brilliant analogy .
he said that to parents , he asks them a simple question : " computing is no longer taught in schools ( parents look quizzical ) , they are simply 'trained ' ( parents look like they vaguely get it ) .
if this was sex instead of computing that was taught in schools , would you prefer that your kids have sex \ _education \ _ or sex \ _training \ _ ?
( parents finally get it ) " .putting kids in front of microsoft products does them absolutely no service at all .
it 's why the OLPC project was created , to emphasise the goal of \ _educating \ _ kids about computers , rather than \ _training \ _ them to merely \ _use \ _ computers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>i have a friend who, when his kids asked him "can we av a computer daaad", went up into the loft, got out the TRS80 and a stack of byte magazines.
the kids looked at him in this funny way, but they managed to get the machine working, chewed their way through the programs, and actually had fun with it.he then promised them that their next computer (and this was only three years ago) would be a Pentium II.my first application i ever saw was a 5 line PET Commodore 3032 BASIC program: for i = 1 to 40 print tab(i), i next i 50 goto 10.  it scrolled numbers across the screen; i understood it instantly, and have never looked back.
i was eight years old, and i was writing my own games within a year, moving @ and * symbols around the screen and firing ".
" symbols - three kids smashing down keys and jamming the other kids because the keyboard matrix on the Commodore PET wasn't smart enough to detect all the keys we were holding down, simultaneously, trying to blast each other to bits with fullstops.with only an 8mhz CPU, 32k of memory, a 40x25 screen and BASIC to play with, there were no "expectations" of fanciness, fonts or even graphics to get in the way.
the learning curve was quick and dirty, and there were no frills to overwhelm you.but, most importantly, there wasn't a ton of software ready-made to "spoon-feed" you.computer education is no longer education.
at a British Computing Institute talk i attended, someone there made this brilliant analogy.
he said that to parents, he asks them a simple question:"computing is no longer taught in schools (parents look quizzical), they are simply 'trained' (parents look like they vaguely get it).
if this was sex instead of computing that was taught in schools, would you prefer that your kids have sex \_education\_ or sex \_training\_?
(parents finally get it)".putting kids in front of microsoft products does them absolutely no service at all.
it's why the OLPC project was created, to emphasise the goal of \_educating\_ kids about computers, rather than \_training\_ them to merely \_use\_ computers.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31194156</id>
	<title>Still no interest in voice</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266503220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No matter how badly Gates might want to emulate the Enterprise's intuitive school-marm, there's still no interest in letting anyone within earshot know your google searches, login data, or taste in newds.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No matter how badly Gates might want to emulate the Enterprise 's intuitive school-marm , there 's still no interest in letting anyone within earshot know your google searches , login data , or taste in newds .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No matter how badly Gates might want to emulate the Enterprise's intuitive school-marm, there's still no interest in letting anyone within earshot know your google searches, login data, or taste in newds.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31197490</id>
	<title>Re:Effectively?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266580800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wish I could post this logged in but I've already modded.</p><p>Yes, they do have video footage from 1906.</p><p><a href="http://lcweb2.loc.gov/papr/sfhome.html" title="loc.gov" rel="nofollow">Here.</a> [loc.gov]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Wish I could post this logged in but I 've already modded.Yes , they do have video footage from 1906.Here .
[ loc.gov ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wish I could post this logged in but I've already modded.Yes, they do have video footage from 1906.Here.
[loc.gov]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31194470</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31198372</id>
	<title>Re:older computers are better teaching tools</title>
	<author>laughing\_badger</author>
	<datestamp>1266590340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>"computing is no longer taught in schools (parents look quizzical), they are simply 'trained' (parents look like they vaguely get it). if this was sex instead of computing that was taught in schools, would you prefer that your kids have sex \_education\_ or sex \_training\_? (parents finally get it)".</p></div><p>Children should not perform chemistry experiments in school ('training'), they should be taught what the theory predicts the results of those experiments should be ('education'). It's a catchy analogy, but it falls down right there.
</p><p>
Kids need both kinds of computer experience. Some will grow up to write programs and some will tab through fields in data entry systems.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" computing is no longer taught in schools ( parents look quizzical ) , they are simply 'trained ' ( parents look like they vaguely get it ) .
if this was sex instead of computing that was taught in schools , would you prefer that your kids have sex \ _education \ _ or sex \ _training \ _ ?
( parents finally get it ) " .Children should not perform chemistry experiments in school ( 'training ' ) , they should be taught what the theory predicts the results of those experiments should be ( 'education ' ) .
It 's a catchy analogy , but it falls down right there .
Kids need both kinds of computer experience .
Some will grow up to write programs and some will tab through fields in data entry systems .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"computing is no longer taught in schools (parents look quizzical), they are simply 'trained' (parents look like they vaguely get it).
if this was sex instead of computing that was taught in schools, would you prefer that your kids have sex \_education\_ or sex \_training\_?
(parents finally get it)".Children should not perform chemistry experiments in school ('training'), they should be taught what the theory predicts the results of those experiments should be ('education').
It's a catchy analogy, but it falls down right there.
Kids need both kinds of computer experience.
Some will grow up to write programs and some will tab through fields in data entry systems.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192440</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192454</id>
	<title>using technology effectively in education</title>
	<author>Culture20</author>
	<datestamp>1266493620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>It's a reminder from 30 years ago that we are still not using technology effectively in education.</p></div><p>Yes we are.  White boards are slightly more effective than chalk boards; they're a technological improvement.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's a reminder from 30 years ago that we are still not using technology effectively in education.Yes we are .
White boards are slightly more effective than chalk boards ; they 're a technological improvement .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's a reminder from 30 years ago that we are still not using technology effectively in education.Yes we are.
White boards are slightly more effective than chalk boards; they're a technological improvement.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31194950</id>
	<title>Re:what reminder ?</title>
	<author>Maestro485</author>
	<datestamp>1266508080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>My point ? No matter what you look at from 30 years ago - we haven't made the progress that we always believed we should have by now...</p></div><p>Clearly you forget how hard it was to cheaply and quickly access high (and low) quality porn back then.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>My point ?
No matter what you look at from 30 years ago - we have n't made the progress that we always believed we should have by now...Clearly you forget how hard it was to cheaply and quickly access high ( and low ) quality porn back then .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My point ?
No matter what you look at from 30 years ago - we haven't made the progress that we always believed we should have by now...Clearly you forget how hard it was to cheaply and quickly access high (and low) quality porn back then.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192460</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192520</id>
	<title>MECC featured an early MUD</title>
	<author>Kalendraf</author>
	<datestamp>1266493920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I grew up in Mankato, and I first used that MECC system discussed in the article around 1977 when I was in 4th grade.  We didn't get Apples in our district until around 1978 or 1979, so for most of us, the MECC terminal was our first exposure to a computer.  Our MECC sessions would continually print out on a large roll of yellow paper, and eventually it would run out and we'd need to get a teacher to help us reload it.  Of course, it shouldn't be too surprising that most of us just used it for playing games.  Among the games available on the MECC were Oregon Trail, a subhunt game (Seawolf?), and a dungeon game (Sceptre?).  After a certain time of day (8am?), the access to some of the games was turned off, so some kids actually would arrive early just to play those games.
<br> <br>
I greatly enjoyed the dungeon game, but never managed to get very far on it.  Much later on, I learned about MUDs, and realized that I'd actually been playing one all those years ago.  Nowadays, I suppose that many kids don't even know what MUDs are.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I grew up in Mankato , and I first used that MECC system discussed in the article around 1977 when I was in 4th grade .
We did n't get Apples in our district until around 1978 or 1979 , so for most of us , the MECC terminal was our first exposure to a computer .
Our MECC sessions would continually print out on a large roll of yellow paper , and eventually it would run out and we 'd need to get a teacher to help us reload it .
Of course , it should n't be too surprising that most of us just used it for playing games .
Among the games available on the MECC were Oregon Trail , a subhunt game ( Seawolf ?
) , and a dungeon game ( Sceptre ? ) .
After a certain time of day ( 8am ?
) , the access to some of the games was turned off , so some kids actually would arrive early just to play those games .
I greatly enjoyed the dungeon game , but never managed to get very far on it .
Much later on , I learned about MUDs , and realized that I 'd actually been playing one all those years ago .
Nowadays , I suppose that many kids do n't even know what MUDs are .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I grew up in Mankato, and I first used that MECC system discussed in the article around 1977 when I was in 4th grade.
We didn't get Apples in our district until around 1978 or 1979, so for most of us, the MECC terminal was our first exposure to a computer.
Our MECC sessions would continually print out on a large roll of yellow paper, and eventually it would run out and we'd need to get a teacher to help us reload it.
Of course, it shouldn't be too surprising that most of us just used it for playing games.
Among the games available on the MECC were Oregon Trail, a subhunt game (Seawolf?
), and a dungeon game (Sceptre?).
After a certain time of day (8am?
), the access to some of the games was turned off, so some kids actually would arrive early just to play those games.
I greatly enjoyed the dungeon game, but never managed to get very far on it.
Much later on, I learned about MUDs, and realized that I'd actually been playing one all those years ago.
Nowadays, I suppose that many kids don't even know what MUDs are.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31194674</id>
	<title>Re:Ahh voice control</title>
	<author>NewbieProgrammerMan</author>
	<datestamp>1266506280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Voice control reminds me of the promise of flying cars. We will have both in about 5-10 years. And Duke Nukem Forever.</p></div><p>..and fusion!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Voice control reminds me of the promise of flying cars .
We will have both in about 5-10 years .
And Duke Nukem Forever...and fusion !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Voice control reminds me of the promise of flying cars.
We will have both in about 5-10 years.
And Duke Nukem Forever...and fusion!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192648</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31198932</id>
	<title>Re:How Microsoft shackled the user, making consume</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266593640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What about the Express editions of Visual Studio?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What about the Express editions of Visual Studio ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What about the Express editions of Visual Studio?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31196158</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192804</id>
	<title>Re:It's pathetic where we are today.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266495480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Ah yes! Another slashtard crying that he doesn't like the way things are today because his vision of what technology should be isn't what the mainstream holds. Go ask you F/OSS friends; what you want exists. Now stop bitching about it not being in the majority and use it.<br> <br>Or do you need everyone else to do what you do to feel comfortable about it?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Ah yes !
Another slashtard crying that he does n't like the way things are today because his vision of what technology should be is n't what the mainstream holds .
Go ask you F/OSS friends ; what you want exists .
Now stop bitching about it not being in the majority and use it .
Or do you need everyone else to do what you do to feel comfortable about it ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ah yes!
Another slashtard crying that he doesn't like the way things are today because his vision of what technology should be isn't what the mainstream holds.
Go ask you F/OSS friends; what you want exists.
Now stop bitching about it not being in the majority and use it.
Or do you need everyone else to do what you do to feel comfortable about it?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192424</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31197898</id>
	<title>Geezer</title>
	<author>oilyfishhead</author>
	<datestamp>1266585540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>When I was in high school in the early 70s, we had a terminal (teletype) connect to a HP3000F through a 110 baud, acoustic coupled, modem.
It ran HP time-shared BASIC.  There was 4 or 5 of us that figured out how to make it work.  In '74 they offered a "Computer Science" class.
In the 1st 6 weeks of the class we had 5 teachers and none of them new squat about a computer.  We had to teach them how to work the terminal.
Easy A though.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-)

Of course we had to walk 10 miles to school, in the snow, up hill, both ways.........</htmltext>
<tokenext>When I was in high school in the early 70s , we had a terminal ( teletype ) connect to a HP3000F through a 110 baud , acoustic coupled , modem .
It ran HP time-shared BASIC .
There was 4 or 5 of us that figured out how to make it work .
In '74 they offered a " Computer Science " class .
In the 1st 6 weeks of the class we had 5 teachers and none of them new squat about a computer .
We had to teach them how to work the terminal .
Easy A though .
; - ) Of course we had to walk 10 miles to school , in the snow , up hill , both ways........ .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I was in high school in the early 70s, we had a terminal (teletype) connect to a HP3000F through a 110 baud, acoustic coupled, modem.
It ran HP time-shared BASIC.
There was 4 or 5 of us that figured out how to make it work.
In '74 they offered a "Computer Science" class.
In the 1st 6 weeks of the class we had 5 teachers and none of them new squat about a computer.
We had to teach them how to work the terminal.
Easy A though.
;-)

Of course we had to walk 10 miles to school, in the snow, up hill, both ways.........</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192628</id>
	<title>Re:Effectively?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266494520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>If anything, technology has made classroom education suffer, in my opinion.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If anything , technology has made classroom education suffer , in my opinion .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If anything, technology has made classroom education suffer, in my opinion.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192340</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31194418</id>
	<title>Re:older computers are better teaching tools</title>
	<author>quantumphaze</author>
	<datestamp>1266504780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Give this guy another mod point! Brilliant analogy.</p><p>My story on Australia's education with computers. (learning them, not using them)<br>I did my high school education in the first half of the last decade and computers were barely used for anything more than a typewriter with delete keys and browsing a locked down internet for any flash/java game sites that weren't blocked. We were running IE 5.5 on NT4 (until around 2005/6 when we got XP) that was locked down to the point of uselessness, they even disabled the USB ports so our flash sticks wouldn't work (we were still required to use floppies). We still managed to get games running on them because it's still Windows.</p><p>The compulsory IT class was only one semester in 7th year (first high school year) and we didn't have the opportunity to do anything more with learning computers until year 9 electives. Printing out shit for English doesn't count. Most of the computer "education" was barely anything beyond operating MS Word, Excel (only useful thing I learned), and friends (even FrontPage) unless you chose the programming elective which was done in Visual Basic 6 (better than nothing<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... I think).</p><p>In year 10 there was a new elective where our teacher actually tried to teach us something useful. After the boring compulsory stuff to get our names ticked off we could open up some old computers and install an OS (Win98, XP and even Linux thanks to a friend). It was easy for me since I knew most of this already, but the class was plagued by students who picked it assuming it was a bludge class. (I learned most of my stuff from an old 386 running MS-DOS and Win3.11 which I later destroyed)</p><p>Most students only learned what was taught in primary school (touch typing (soon forgotten) and edutainment games) and that one semester in high school. Ask any one of my peers where their file is. Many would say it lives inside Word or iTunes, not in C:/Users/username/wherever/ on the hard disk inside the box on the floor. The very concept of a file/directory structure is confusing to them and is being further abstracted away from the user in our new iToys.</p><p>I learned more from getting around the computer's restrictions than what was actually taught and I fear for the next generation who may accept these restrictions as normal. If every computer is simplified like the iPhone, restricted app market or not, our students of today will less likely to become the engineers of tomorrow.</p><p>(PS: Sorry about the parentheses (me fail English))</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Give this guy another mod point !
Brilliant analogy.My story on Australia 's education with computers .
( learning them , not using them ) I did my high school education in the first half of the last decade and computers were barely used for anything more than a typewriter with delete keys and browsing a locked down internet for any flash/java game sites that were n't blocked .
We were running IE 5.5 on NT4 ( until around 2005/6 when we got XP ) that was locked down to the point of uselessness , they even disabled the USB ports so our flash sticks would n't work ( we were still required to use floppies ) .
We still managed to get games running on them because it 's still Windows.The compulsory IT class was only one semester in 7th year ( first high school year ) and we did n't have the opportunity to do anything more with learning computers until year 9 electives .
Printing out shit for English does n't count .
Most of the computer " education " was barely anything beyond operating MS Word , Excel ( only useful thing I learned ) , and friends ( even FrontPage ) unless you chose the programming elective which was done in Visual Basic 6 ( better than nothing ... I think ) .In year 10 there was a new elective where our teacher actually tried to teach us something useful .
After the boring compulsory stuff to get our names ticked off we could open up some old computers and install an OS ( Win98 , XP and even Linux thanks to a friend ) .
It was easy for me since I knew most of this already , but the class was plagued by students who picked it assuming it was a bludge class .
( I learned most of my stuff from an old 386 running MS-DOS and Win3.11 which I later destroyed ) Most students only learned what was taught in primary school ( touch typing ( soon forgotten ) and edutainment games ) and that one semester in high school .
Ask any one of my peers where their file is .
Many would say it lives inside Word or iTunes , not in C : /Users/username/wherever/ on the hard disk inside the box on the floor .
The very concept of a file/directory structure is confusing to them and is being further abstracted away from the user in our new iToys.I learned more from getting around the computer 's restrictions than what was actually taught and I fear for the next generation who may accept these restrictions as normal .
If every computer is simplified like the iPhone , restricted app market or not , our students of today will less likely to become the engineers of tomorrow .
( PS : Sorry about the parentheses ( me fail English ) )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Give this guy another mod point!
Brilliant analogy.My story on Australia's education with computers.
(learning them, not using them)I did my high school education in the first half of the last decade and computers were barely used for anything more than a typewriter with delete keys and browsing a locked down internet for any flash/java game sites that weren't blocked.
We were running IE 5.5 on NT4 (until around 2005/6 when we got XP) that was locked down to the point of uselessness, they even disabled the USB ports so our flash sticks wouldn't work (we were still required to use floppies).
We still managed to get games running on them because it's still Windows.The compulsory IT class was only one semester in 7th year (first high school year) and we didn't have the opportunity to do anything more with learning computers until year 9 electives.
Printing out shit for English doesn't count.
Most of the computer "education" was barely anything beyond operating MS Word, Excel (only useful thing I learned), and friends (even FrontPage) unless you chose the programming elective which was done in Visual Basic 6 (better than nothing ... I think).In year 10 there was a new elective where our teacher actually tried to teach us something useful.
After the boring compulsory stuff to get our names ticked off we could open up some old computers and install an OS (Win98, XP and even Linux thanks to a friend).
It was easy for me since I knew most of this already, but the class was plagued by students who picked it assuming it was a bludge class.
(I learned most of my stuff from an old 386 running MS-DOS and Win3.11 which I later destroyed)Most students only learned what was taught in primary school (touch typing (soon forgotten) and edutainment games) and that one semester in high school.
Ask any one of my peers where their file is.
Many would say it lives inside Word or iTunes, not in C:/Users/username/wherever/ on the hard disk inside the box on the floor.
The very concept of a file/directory structure is confusing to them and is being further abstracted away from the user in our new iToys.I learned more from getting around the computer's restrictions than what was actually taught and I fear for the next generation who may accept these restrictions as normal.
If every computer is simplified like the iPhone, restricted app market or not, our students of today will less likely to become the engineers of tomorrow.
(PS: Sorry about the parentheses (me fail English))</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192440</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192700</id>
	<title>Effective? By whose definition? Standards? Goal?</title>
	<author>ElectricTurtle</author>
	<datestamp>1266495060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I assume that this was submitted by somebody directly related to techlearning.com where the PDF is hosted (and whose server is being roasted by every<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/.er downloading a 32 page PDF at the same time... ), and they have an agenda to push 'solutions' on the education industry. In their minds 'effective' means people are buying whatever products their sponsors are hawking. Pfff. *cough*slashvertisement*cough*<br> <br>
The fact is technology has completely changed society, and education has not adapted. The internet has killed the exclusivity of the knowledge-based education paradigm. This isn't to say that people should not still learn facts, but there needs to be a new focus on logic, synthesis, and processes. People need to be taught how to find what they want to know, and not just by hur dur type things in da search box lol but real boolean logic. Then they need to be taught how to use that information in a synthetic, practical way.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I assume that this was submitted by somebody directly related to techlearning.com where the PDF is hosted ( and whose server is being roasted by every /.er downloading a 32 page PDF at the same time... ) , and they have an agenda to push 'solutions ' on the education industry .
In their minds 'effective ' means people are buying whatever products their sponsors are hawking .
Pfff. * cough * slashvertisement * cough * The fact is technology has completely changed society , and education has not adapted .
The internet has killed the exclusivity of the knowledge-based education paradigm .
This is n't to say that people should not still learn facts , but there needs to be a new focus on logic , synthesis , and processes .
People need to be taught how to find what they want to know , and not just by hur dur type things in da search box lol but real boolean logic .
Then they need to be taught how to use that information in a synthetic , practical way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I assume that this was submitted by somebody directly related to techlearning.com where the PDF is hosted (and whose server is being roasted by every /.er downloading a 32 page PDF at the same time... ), and they have an agenda to push 'solutions' on the education industry.
In their minds 'effective' means people are buying whatever products their sponsors are hawking.
Pfff. *cough*slashvertisement*cough* 
The fact is technology has completely changed society, and education has not adapted.
The internet has killed the exclusivity of the knowledge-based education paradigm.
This isn't to say that people should not still learn facts, but there needs to be a new focus on logic, synthesis, and processes.
People need to be taught how to find what they want to know, and not just by hur dur type things in da search box lol but real boolean logic.
Then they need to be taught how to use that information in a synthetic, practical way.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192650</id>
	<title>plus &#231;a change...</title>
	<author>tverbeek</author>
	<datestamp>1266494640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"It's a reminder from 30 years ago that we are still not using technology effectively in education."</p><p>Right, because we <i>still</i> have high-school graduates believing that voice-controlled computers will somehow be useful if we can just get more horsepower for speech recognition.  Watch those Star Trek re-runs more closely, kids.  There's a <i>reason</i> why only one person on the bridge has a computer that he can talk to: it'd be cacophonic chaos if everyone were talking at once.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" It 's a reminder from 30 years ago that we are still not using technology effectively in education .
" Right , because we still have high-school graduates believing that voice-controlled computers will somehow be useful if we can just get more horsepower for speech recognition .
Watch those Star Trek re-runs more closely , kids .
There 's a reason why only one person on the bridge has a computer that he can talk to : it 'd be cacophonic chaos if everyone were talking at once .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"It's a reminder from 30 years ago that we are still not using technology effectively in education.
"Right, because we still have high-school graduates believing that voice-controlled computers will somehow be useful if we can just get more horsepower for speech recognition.
Watch those Star Trek re-runs more closely, kids.
There's a reason why only one person on the bridge has a computer that he can talk to: it'd be cacophonic chaos if everyone were talking at once.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31195194</id>
	<title>using computers != programming</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266509820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My wife was a teacher for 15+ years, teaching English and Mathematics at high school.</p><p>They didn't use computers for Mathematics. They used them for English. Remember how the English teachers used to nag you about writing out rough drafts, then revising them? I certainly didn't do that most of the time, because writing an essay multiple times was a drag. Now they use word processing, and learn about revising documents to improve them. That's a sensible use of computers, IMHO.</p><p>I'm sure they taught programming to those students who were interested, but using computers does not have to mean teaching programming.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My wife was a teacher for 15 + years , teaching English and Mathematics at high school.They did n't use computers for Mathematics .
They used them for English .
Remember how the English teachers used to nag you about writing out rough drafts , then revising them ?
I certainly did n't do that most of the time , because writing an essay multiple times was a drag .
Now they use word processing , and learn about revising documents to improve them .
That 's a sensible use of computers , IMHO.I 'm sure they taught programming to those students who were interested , but using computers does not have to mean teaching programming .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My wife was a teacher for 15+ years, teaching English and Mathematics at high school.They didn't use computers for Mathematics.
They used them for English.
Remember how the English teachers used to nag you about writing out rough drafts, then revising them?
I certainly didn't do that most of the time, because writing an essay multiple times was a drag.
Now they use word processing, and learn about revising documents to improve them.
That's a sensible use of computers, IMHO.I'm sure they taught programming to those students who were interested, but using computers does not have to mean teaching programming.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31200856</id>
	<title>Re:older computers are better teaching tools</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266602220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I can still remember the day my dad gave me my first SHIFT key. "You are a big boy now", he said.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I can still remember the day my dad gave me my first SHIFT key .
" You are a big boy now " , he said .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can still remember the day my dad gave me my first SHIFT key.
"You are a big boy now", he said.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192440</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31194276</id>
	<title>TRASH-80s</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266504060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In 1989 my Jr High School had the only computer lab / classroom in the city.  I believe there was one or two periods where you could take the computer course.  I was lucky enough to get into one.  I remember working on TRS-80's, writing basic programs (including a crappy centipede type program where the centipede only had one segment and you could almost never miss), and spooling programs to cassette tape.  No wonder I'm a sysadmin now and not a programmer...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In 1989 my Jr High School had the only computer lab / classroom in the city .
I believe there was one or two periods where you could take the computer course .
I was lucky enough to get into one .
I remember working on TRS-80 's , writing basic programs ( including a crappy centipede type program where the centipede only had one segment and you could almost never miss ) , and spooling programs to cassette tape .
No wonder I 'm a sysadmin now and not a programmer.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In 1989 my Jr High School had the only computer lab / classroom in the city.
I believe there was one or two periods where you could take the computer course.
I was lucky enough to get into one.
I remember working on TRS-80's, writing basic programs (including a crappy centipede type program where the centipede only had one segment and you could almost never miss), and spooling programs to cassette tape.
No wonder I'm a sysadmin now and not a programmer...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31198222</id>
	<title>Re:I tried to ford the river...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266589140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My snakebites always took a turn for the worse<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:(</p><p>What were you meant to do for snakebites anyway?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My snakebites always took a turn for the worse : ( What were you meant to do for snakebites anyway ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My snakebites always took a turn for the worse :(What were you meant to do for snakebites anyway?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192412</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31193442</id>
	<title>Computers are not fairy dust</title>
	<author>John Whitley</author>
	<datestamp>1266498600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Computers are not fairy dust.  One does not sprinkle "computers" on a problem to make the problem go away.  They are simply tools that can be applied to solve a wide variety of problems -- but only work well when a real-world problem domain is understood by those attempting a solution.  So much of "computers in education" have been ill-informed stabs in the dark by those who either don't understand the problem (and therefore relevant solutions) and/or who simply want to make money by selling solutions without regard to problems.</p><p>That said, computers are already transforming education because we're finally at the point where we can change the affordances of education.   Consider the experience of having both good vs bad instructor/professors.  As online video and remote classroom technologies improve, we're increasingly able to simply put all of the students in "the good prof's class" -- even though he or she is on the other side of the continent.  You could be in the Big Lecture Hall with the bad prof, or have a world-class "+5 Insightful" instructor available via your computer.  For live classes, this comes with the same Q&amp;A opportunities as a standard classroom (more tech well-applied).  For previously recorded classes, students get the benefit of review opportunities that never existed in a traditional class.  Or in many cases, students can attend a live lecture with complete "recall" of the lecture material provided by increasingly good online presentation of the lecture video and notes.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Computers are not fairy dust .
One does not sprinkle " computers " on a problem to make the problem go away .
They are simply tools that can be applied to solve a wide variety of problems -- but only work well when a real-world problem domain is understood by those attempting a solution .
So much of " computers in education " have been ill-informed stabs in the dark by those who either do n't understand the problem ( and therefore relevant solutions ) and/or who simply want to make money by selling solutions without regard to problems.That said , computers are already transforming education because we 're finally at the point where we can change the affordances of education .
Consider the experience of having both good vs bad instructor/professors .
As online video and remote classroom technologies improve , we 're increasingly able to simply put all of the students in " the good prof 's class " -- even though he or she is on the other side of the continent .
You could be in the Big Lecture Hall with the bad prof , or have a world-class " + 5 Insightful " instructor available via your computer .
For live classes , this comes with the same Q&amp;A opportunities as a standard classroom ( more tech well-applied ) .
For previously recorded classes , students get the benefit of review opportunities that never existed in a traditional class .
Or in many cases , students can attend a live lecture with complete " recall " of the lecture material provided by increasingly good online presentation of the lecture video and notes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Computers are not fairy dust.
One does not sprinkle "computers" on a problem to make the problem go away.
They are simply tools that can be applied to solve a wide variety of problems -- but only work well when a real-world problem domain is understood by those attempting a solution.
So much of "computers in education" have been ill-informed stabs in the dark by those who either don't understand the problem (and therefore relevant solutions) and/or who simply want to make money by selling solutions without regard to problems.That said, computers are already transforming education because we're finally at the point where we can change the affordances of education.
Consider the experience of having both good vs bad instructor/professors.
As online video and remote classroom technologies improve, we're increasingly able to simply put all of the students in "the good prof's class" -- even though he or she is on the other side of the continent.
You could be in the Big Lecture Hall with the bad prof, or have a world-class "+5 Insightful" instructor available via your computer.
For live classes, this comes with the same Q&amp;A opportunities as a standard classroom (more tech well-applied).
For previously recorded classes, students get the benefit of review opportunities that never existed in a traditional class.
Or in many cases, students can attend a live lecture with complete "recall" of the lecture material provided by increasingly good online presentation of the lecture video and notes.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192892</id>
	<title>no</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266495840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's used very effectively in university - languages - computational linguistics; speech recognition &amp; analysis.<br>Maths - Matlab, Mathematica etc. and on<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. for the few</p><p>It's available for some elementary and high schoolers too but not enough.<br>It's not the tech that's the problem - it's society.</p><p>Also, don't forget that many educational breakthroughs have come from computers - the ability to crunch stats<br>and have programs analyse and collect data. Statisticians compiling the data and great new revelations coming<br>The problem is money as ever..</p><p>The ipad will bring forth new educational possibilities that will be exploited for the few.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's used very effectively in university - languages - computational linguistics ; speech recognition &amp; analysis.Maths - Matlab , Mathematica etc .
and on .. for the fewIt 's available for some elementary and high schoolers too but not enough.It 's not the tech that 's the problem - it 's society.Also , do n't forget that many educational breakthroughs have come from computers - the ability to crunch statsand have programs analyse and collect data .
Statisticians compiling the data and great new revelations comingThe problem is money as ever..The ipad will bring forth new educational possibilities that will be exploited for the few .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's used very effectively in university - languages - computational linguistics; speech recognition &amp; analysis.Maths - Matlab, Mathematica etc.
and on .. for the fewIt's available for some elementary and high schoolers too but not enough.It's not the tech that's the problem - it's society.Also, don't forget that many educational breakthroughs have come from computers - the ability to crunch statsand have programs analyse and collect data.
Statisticians compiling the data and great new revelations comingThe problem is money as ever..The ipad will bring forth new educational possibilities that will be exploited for the few.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192340</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192574</id>
	<title>Re:Effectively?</title>
	<author>LWATCDR</author>
	<datestamp>1266494280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes.<br>The internet is a great example. You can find out anything and learn about anything you want.<br>You have a huge amount of data, resources, and programs at your fingertips.</p><p>Where computers don't help much is at the elementary level.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes.The internet is a great example .
You can find out anything and learn about anything you want.You have a huge amount of data , resources , and programs at your fingertips.Where computers do n't help much is at the elementary level .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes.The internet is a great example.
You can find out anything and learn about anything you want.You have a huge amount of data, resources, and programs at your fingertips.Where computers don't help much is at the elementary level.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192340</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192392</id>
	<title>A super calculator</title>
	<author>RobertinXinyang</author>
	<datestamp>1266493380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When I was in High School, back in the 80's, students were not allowed to use a computer unless they had completed Algebra 2 and were enrolled in Trig or calculus. Th reasoning was that computers were super calculators and, as such, the only students that needed them were advanced math students.</p><p>I was allowed in the computer lab, all Apple IIs', as long as I was there with an authorized student; however, I was not allowed to actually touch a computer. This created a procedure where I, and other interested students, would write out our programs on paper and then hand them to another, authorized, student, to type in to the computer.</p><p>Fortunately, an accountant I knew got an Apple II to run Visacalc on. I was then able to us a computer all I wanted so long as I was able to use the spreadsheet when he needed something set up on it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When I was in High School , back in the 80 's , students were not allowed to use a computer unless they had completed Algebra 2 and were enrolled in Trig or calculus .
Th reasoning was that computers were super calculators and , as such , the only students that needed them were advanced math students.I was allowed in the computer lab , all Apple IIs ' , as long as I was there with an authorized student ; however , I was not allowed to actually touch a computer .
This created a procedure where I , and other interested students , would write out our programs on paper and then hand them to another , authorized , student , to type in to the computer.Fortunately , an accountant I knew got an Apple II to run Visacalc on .
I was then able to us a computer all I wanted so long as I was able to use the spreadsheet when he needed something set up on it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I was in High School, back in the 80's, students were not allowed to use a computer unless they had completed Algebra 2 and were enrolled in Trig or calculus.
Th reasoning was that computers were super calculators and, as such, the only students that needed them were advanced math students.I was allowed in the computer lab, all Apple IIs', as long as I was there with an authorized student; however, I was not allowed to actually touch a computer.
This created a procedure where I, and other interested students, would write out our programs on paper and then hand them to another, authorized, student, to type in to the computer.Fortunately, an accountant I knew got an Apple II to run Visacalc on.
I was then able to us a computer all I wanted so long as I was able to use the spreadsheet when he needed something set up on it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31193024</id>
	<title>You are standing...</title>
	<author>zawarski</author>
	<datestamp>1266496440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>...at the end of a road before a small brick building.</htmltext>
<tokenext>...at the end of a road before a small brick building .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...at the end of a road before a small brick building.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31197644</id>
	<title>Re:Effectively?</title>
	<author>dmhayden</author>
	<datestamp>1266582360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Does anybody actually believe that we have progressed significantly in our use of tech to educate? I sure don't.</p></div><p>Really?  Try getting rid of the tech then.  Unplug the computers in the library and research using a card catalog.  All written assignments must be typed on a typewriter.  Tests, quizes and handouts will be typed or hand-written by the teacher and copied on a mimeograph machine. In science, all measurements will be made by hand and all lab reports will include hand-made calculations and hand drawn charts.  To avoid having the kids calculate for 6 hours to generate a chart, they will be restricted to 4 measurements of their data.</p><p>If a child forgets an assignment, they'll have to call a friend, who will read it to them over the phone while they copy furiously (and incorrectly).</p><p>Video demonstrations or presentations in the classroom will go away. After all, it means finding it (in the library, on the card catalog, and hoping that we have such a tape), copying it on a VHS tape, wheeling the TV and VCR into the classroom (they're too bulky and expensive to put one in each room) and hoping that everything works.</p><p>Technology has had a HUGE effect on education, just as it has on everything else</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Does anybody actually believe that we have progressed significantly in our use of tech to educate ?
I sure do n't.Really ?
Try getting rid of the tech then .
Unplug the computers in the library and research using a card catalog .
All written assignments must be typed on a typewriter .
Tests , quizes and handouts will be typed or hand-written by the teacher and copied on a mimeograph machine .
In science , all measurements will be made by hand and all lab reports will include hand-made calculations and hand drawn charts .
To avoid having the kids calculate for 6 hours to generate a chart , they will be restricted to 4 measurements of their data.If a child forgets an assignment , they 'll have to call a friend , who will read it to them over the phone while they copy furiously ( and incorrectly ) .Video demonstrations or presentations in the classroom will go away .
After all , it means finding it ( in the library , on the card catalog , and hoping that we have such a tape ) , copying it on a VHS tape , wheeling the TV and VCR into the classroom ( they 're too bulky and expensive to put one in each room ) and hoping that everything works.Technology has had a HUGE effect on education , just as it has on everything else</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Does anybody actually believe that we have progressed significantly in our use of tech to educate?
I sure don't.Really?
Try getting rid of the tech then.
Unplug the computers in the library and research using a card catalog.
All written assignments must be typed on a typewriter.
Tests, quizes and handouts will be typed or hand-written by the teacher and copied on a mimeograph machine.
In science, all measurements will be made by hand and all lab reports will include hand-made calculations and hand drawn charts.
To avoid having the kids calculate for 6 hours to generate a chart, they will be restricted to 4 measurements of their data.If a child forgets an assignment, they'll have to call a friend, who will read it to them over the phone while they copy furiously (and incorrectly).Video demonstrations or presentations in the classroom will go away.
After all, it means finding it (in the library, on the card catalog, and hoping that we have such a tape), copying it on a VHS tape, wheeling the TV and VCR into the classroom (they're too bulky and expensive to put one in each room) and hoping that everything works.Technology has had a HUGE effect on education, just as it has on everything else
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192340</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31199550</id>
	<title>Re:Vignettes</title>
	<author>Doctor Faustus</author>
	<datestamp>1266596520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>There's also a document camera that teachers can use to show their work while sitting at their desk. What happened to simply writing everything in big bold letters on the whiteboard?</i><br>Or markers on one of those old overhead projectors with the scrolling transparency.  My geometry teacher lived for hers in 1990.</p><p>On the other hand, if the students can watch it again later, when they run into trouble on their homework, that's a big win.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's also a document camera that teachers can use to show their work while sitting at their desk .
What happened to simply writing everything in big bold letters on the whiteboard ? Or markers on one of those old overhead projectors with the scrolling transparency .
My geometry teacher lived for hers in 1990.On the other hand , if the students can watch it again later , when they run into trouble on their homework , that 's a big win .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's also a document camera that teachers can use to show their work while sitting at their desk.
What happened to simply writing everything in big bold letters on the whiteboard?Or markers on one of those old overhead projectors with the scrolling transparency.
My geometry teacher lived for hers in 1990.On the other hand, if the students can watch it again later, when they run into trouble on their homework, that's a big win.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192876</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31193502</id>
	<title>Re:A super calculator</title>
	<author>sharkbiter</author>
	<datestamp>1266498960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wow! They must have had limited resources at your school at the time. In 1978, I was the part-time sysop of an IBM S/32 (16K of core memory). The other kids in my Data Processing class would use 8 inch floppy disks with their programs on them (COBOL), as entered by the "typing pool" on IBM 36's and line up for batch processing. Being the sysop, I was able to monopolize the first 3 days of the week with my assignment using the S/32's console and green screen VDU and put out my assignment, extra credit and extra extra credit. I got an A+ (the plus was merely the instructor's tacked on opinion as it didn't count). After Wednesday, the lines would be long (there were about 12 kids in the course), as the rest of the class entered their now "last minute" assignments.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Wow !
They must have had limited resources at your school at the time .
In 1978 , I was the part-time sysop of an IBM S/32 ( 16K of core memory ) .
The other kids in my Data Processing class would use 8 inch floppy disks with their programs on them ( COBOL ) , as entered by the " typing pool " on IBM 36 's and line up for batch processing .
Being the sysop , I was able to monopolize the first 3 days of the week with my assignment using the S/32 's console and green screen VDU and put out my assignment , extra credit and extra extra credit .
I got an A + ( the plus was merely the instructor 's tacked on opinion as it did n't count ) .
After Wednesday , the lines would be long ( there were about 12 kids in the course ) , as the rest of the class entered their now " last minute " assignments .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wow!
They must have had limited resources at your school at the time.
In 1978, I was the part-time sysop of an IBM S/32 (16K of core memory).
The other kids in my Data Processing class would use 8 inch floppy disks with their programs on them (COBOL), as entered by the "typing pool" on IBM 36's and line up for batch processing.
Being the sysop, I was able to monopolize the first 3 days of the week with my assignment using the S/32's console and green screen VDU and put out my assignment, extra credit and extra extra credit.
I got an A+ (the plus was merely the instructor's tacked on opinion as it didn't count).
After Wednesday, the lines would be long (there were about 12 kids in the course), as the rest of the class entered their now "last minute" assignments.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192392</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31194084</id>
	<title>Re:Depends on how you mean "effectively".</title>
	<author>mattack2</author>
	<datestamp>1266502680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I can find accurate information much, much, much faster than I could in 1980.</p></div></blockquote><p>You can also find inaccurate information much, much faster than you could in 1980. (e.g. blogs, pseudoscientific articles, etc.)</p><p>BTW, I say this as someone who is a huge fan of wikipedia and use it most days (and have corrected things there though mostly minor edits).</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I can find accurate information much , much , much faster than I could in 1980.You can also find inaccurate information much , much faster than you could in 1980 .
( e.g. blogs , pseudoscientific articles , etc .
) BTW , I say this as someone who is a huge fan of wikipedia and use it most days ( and have corrected things there though mostly minor edits ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can find accurate information much, much, much faster than I could in 1980.You can also find inaccurate information much, much faster than you could in 1980.
(e.g. blogs, pseudoscientific articles, etc.
)BTW, I say this as someone who is a huge fan of wikipedia and use it most days (and have corrected things there though mostly minor edits).
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192572</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31193320</id>
	<title>Re:Effectively?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266497880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The only computers we had were apple IIGSs networked with AppleTalk to a Mac Classic that we had until i was a junior in high school, in 1998.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The only computers we had were apple IIGSs networked with AppleTalk to a Mac Classic that we had until i was a junior in high school , in 1998 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The only computers we had were apple IIGSs networked with AppleTalk to a Mac Classic that we had until i was a junior in high school, in 1998.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192340</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31193136</id>
	<title>Re:Effectively?</title>
	<author>0100010001010011</author>
	<datestamp>1266496920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes. In high school (2001) we had an Apple II with some very custom hardware and software that used lasers for timing a ball dropping down a ramp. I don't know if I would have had it driven home how gravity works if we just used a stopwatch. We saw that no matter the height or the weight, gravity was pretty consistent.</p><p>My TI-89 (which was probably more powerful) had some awesome sonic rangefinder software that I used to test F=Ma and other stuff.</p><p>I recently went back and visited both the public school I went to (&gt;6) and the private one (6).</p><p>Both schools had 4th grader 'poems' hung outside the room. Difference was the public school just made the kids type in the exact same poem and decorate it how ever they wanted. (teaching... Typing / Desktop Publishing?). In private school each student had to write their own poem.</p><p>On the surface both schools look like they did something with computers, but I can say that one school missed the boat with actually teaching anything.</p><p>In college we didn't have a 'non calculator' portion on tests. We had a "Computer" and "Calculator" portion and used Maple on the computer part. The problems we solved were closer to what I've seen in the real world, but would have never been able to be solved by hand.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes .
In high school ( 2001 ) we had an Apple II with some very custom hardware and software that used lasers for timing a ball dropping down a ramp .
I do n't know if I would have had it driven home how gravity works if we just used a stopwatch .
We saw that no matter the height or the weight , gravity was pretty consistent.My TI-89 ( which was probably more powerful ) had some awesome sonic rangefinder software that I used to test F = Ma and other stuff.I recently went back and visited both the public school I went to ( &gt; 6 ) and the private one ( 6 ) .Both schools had 4th grader 'poems ' hung outside the room .
Difference was the public school just made the kids type in the exact same poem and decorate it how ever they wanted .
( teaching... Typing / Desktop Publishing ? ) .
In private school each student had to write their own poem.On the surface both schools look like they did something with computers , but I can say that one school missed the boat with actually teaching anything.In college we did n't have a 'non calculator ' portion on tests .
We had a " Computer " and " Calculator " portion and used Maple on the computer part .
The problems we solved were closer to what I 've seen in the real world , but would have never been able to be solved by hand .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes.
In high school (2001) we had an Apple II with some very custom hardware and software that used lasers for timing a ball dropping down a ramp.
I don't know if I would have had it driven home how gravity works if we just used a stopwatch.
We saw that no matter the height or the weight, gravity was pretty consistent.My TI-89 (which was probably more powerful) had some awesome sonic rangefinder software that I used to test F=Ma and other stuff.I recently went back and visited both the public school I went to (&gt;6) and the private one (6).Both schools had 4th grader 'poems' hung outside the room.
Difference was the public school just made the kids type in the exact same poem and decorate it how ever they wanted.
(teaching... Typing / Desktop Publishing?).
In private school each student had to write their own poem.On the surface both schools look like they did something with computers, but I can say that one school missed the boat with actually teaching anything.In college we didn't have a 'non calculator' portion on tests.
We had a "Computer" and "Calculator" portion and used Maple on the computer part.
The problems we solved were closer to what I've seen in the real world, but would have never been able to be solved by hand.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192340</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31196742</id>
	<title>Textbook publishers use tech like Microsoft</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266572340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Textbook publishers use technology in the same way that Microsoft uses Windows: as a monopolistic lever to force out any and all competition. At the moment the big publishers bribe lazy professors with PowerPoint presentations and the like so the professors can save time actually preparing their coursework. Similarly, publishers are hard-selling assessment packages as the best way to teach students science and math. Once the publisher convinces the professor to REQUIRE the use of the technology package, the publisher now has GUARANTEED sales of new books. The codes in the books ensure that used books are USELESS. So they get their hundred bucks per copy times 30 students in a first-year course. It bears absolutely NO relationship to the costs that go into making the book or even the technology package. Textbook publishers are scary shitless just like other trade publishers (and consumer publishers), only evil in their quest to dominate how students in this country learn. They make the materials, they set up the systems, they control how everyone learns. Very Orwellian. They make a show of allowing some professor-generated content into the system, but really it's all about vendor lock-in the way it is with every other shitty content producer who is afraid to compete on the quality of what they make. Can't wait for those hundred dollar ebooks, what great value! And who actually understands how to use all of this OTHER than the textbook publisher? That's right, it's in their interest to make them just complicated enough so the professor doesn't fuck with the publisher-provided content too much. It's not just the reason college and university bills are skyrocketing, it's about how our children learn. Wake up, people and let's think for ourselves and hire professors who create their own content not just warm bodies who shovel whatever not-proofread crap textbook publishers decide to reprint from the last five editions.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Textbook publishers use technology in the same way that Microsoft uses Windows : as a monopolistic lever to force out any and all competition .
At the moment the big publishers bribe lazy professors with PowerPoint presentations and the like so the professors can save time actually preparing their coursework .
Similarly , publishers are hard-selling assessment packages as the best way to teach students science and math .
Once the publisher convinces the professor to REQUIRE the use of the technology package , the publisher now has GUARANTEED sales of new books .
The codes in the books ensure that used books are USELESS .
So they get their hundred bucks per copy times 30 students in a first-year course .
It bears absolutely NO relationship to the costs that go into making the book or even the technology package .
Textbook publishers are scary shitless just like other trade publishers ( and consumer publishers ) , only evil in their quest to dominate how students in this country learn .
They make the materials , they set up the systems , they control how everyone learns .
Very Orwellian .
They make a show of allowing some professor-generated content into the system , but really it 's all about vendor lock-in the way it is with every other shitty content producer who is afraid to compete on the quality of what they make .
Ca n't wait for those hundred dollar ebooks , what great value !
And who actually understands how to use all of this OTHER than the textbook publisher ?
That 's right , it 's in their interest to make them just complicated enough so the professor does n't fuck with the publisher-provided content too much .
It 's not just the reason college and university bills are skyrocketing , it 's about how our children learn .
Wake up , people and let 's think for ourselves and hire professors who create their own content not just warm bodies who shovel whatever not-proofread crap textbook publishers decide to reprint from the last five editions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Textbook publishers use technology in the same way that Microsoft uses Windows: as a monopolistic lever to force out any and all competition.
At the moment the big publishers bribe lazy professors with PowerPoint presentations and the like so the professors can save time actually preparing their coursework.
Similarly, publishers are hard-selling assessment packages as the best way to teach students science and math.
Once the publisher convinces the professor to REQUIRE the use of the technology package, the publisher now has GUARANTEED sales of new books.
The codes in the books ensure that used books are USELESS.
So they get their hundred bucks per copy times 30 students in a first-year course.
It bears absolutely NO relationship to the costs that go into making the book or even the technology package.
Textbook publishers are scary shitless just like other trade publishers (and consumer publishers), only evil in their quest to dominate how students in this country learn.
They make the materials, they set up the systems, they control how everyone learns.
Very Orwellian.
They make a show of allowing some professor-generated content into the system, but really it's all about vendor lock-in the way it is with every other shitty content producer who is afraid to compete on the quality of what they make.
Can't wait for those hundred dollar ebooks, what great value!
And who actually understands how to use all of this OTHER than the textbook publisher?
That's right, it's in their interest to make them just complicated enough so the professor doesn't fuck with the publisher-provided content too much.
It's not just the reason college and university bills are skyrocketing, it's about how our children learn.
Wake up, people and let's think for ourselves and hire professors who create their own content not just warm bodies who shovel whatever not-proofread crap textbook publishers decide to reprint from the last five editions.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31192540</id>
	<title>1968</title>
	<author>careysb</author>
	<datestamp>1266494100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>I was lucky enough to attend one of the only high schools in the country with access to computers in 1968. We had a teletype style terminal connected by acoustic modem to a mainframe; Fourtran 44. The teachers were pretty clueless about the technology but give a bunch of hungry kids manuals and access and stand back.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I was lucky enough to attend one of the only high schools in the country with access to computers in 1968 .
We had a teletype style terminal connected by acoustic modem to a mainframe ; Fourtran 44 .
The teachers were pretty clueless about the technology but give a bunch of hungry kids manuals and access and stand back .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was lucky enough to attend one of the only high schools in the country with access to computers in 1968.
We had a teletype style terminal connected by acoustic modem to a mainframe; Fourtran 44.
The teachers were pretty clueless about the technology but give a bunch of hungry kids manuals and access and stand back.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31201114</id>
	<title>Re:Effectively?</title>
	<author>Tablizer</author>
	<datestamp>1266603420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p> The problem wasn't the computers. The problem was the administration and the teachers.</p></div> </blockquote><p>Having an expert in managing the computers and their content is generally considered "overhead" and is thus not funded sufficiently. As society grows more complex, there simply may be more "overhead". It's not a dirty word. This applies both to government and education. If you are simplistic and merely maximize the quantity of teachers per budget dollar, then you are not leveraging the power of specialization and variety of teaching angles.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem was n't the computers .
The problem was the administration and the teachers .
Having an expert in managing the computers and their content is generally considered " overhead " and is thus not funded sufficiently .
As society grows more complex , there simply may be more " overhead " .
It 's not a dirty word .
This applies both to government and education .
If you are simplistic and merely maximize the quantity of teachers per budget dollar , then you are not leveraging the power of specialization and variety of teaching angles .
     </tokentext>
<sentencetext> The problem wasn't the computers.
The problem was the administration and the teachers.
Having an expert in managing the computers and their content is generally considered "overhead" and is thus not funded sufficiently.
As society grows more complex, there simply may be more "overhead".
It's not a dirty word.
This applies both to government and education.
If you are simplistic and merely maximize the quantity of teachers per budget dollar, then you are not leveraging the power of specialization and variety of teaching angles.
     
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31193758</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31194196</id>
	<title>"The Algorithm" is old news is old news.</title>
	<author>Dr.Altaica</author>
	<datestamp>1266503400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Ask.com did a big ad campaign about it back in 2007.

<a href="http://web.archive.org/web/20070601190145/http://www.thealgorithm.com/" title="archive.org" rel="nofollow">http://web.archive.org/web/20070601190145/http://www.thealgorithm.com/</a> [archive.org]</htmltext>
<tokenext>Ask.com did a big ad campaign about it back in 2007 . http : //web.archive.org/web/20070601190145/http : //www.thealgorithm.com/ [ archive.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ask.com did a big ad campaign about it back in 2007.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070601190145/http://www.thealgorithm.com/ [archive.org]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31195998</id>
	<title>How about an RNA injection Prof?</title>
	<author>nanospook</author>
	<datestamp>1266518700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Maybe educational technology on computers has not advanced significantly because the interfaces we use, mouse, keyboard, monitor, are the same interfaces we used back when the first PC's came out? They have improved in resolution and speed, but there's only so many techniques you can use to present new ideas and concepts with those tools..</htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe educational technology on computers has not advanced significantly because the interfaces we use , mouse , keyboard , monitor , are the same interfaces we used back when the first PC 's came out ?
They have improved in resolution and speed , but there 's only so many techniques you can use to present new ideas and concepts with those tools. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe educational technology on computers has not advanced significantly because the interfaces we use, mouse, keyboard, monitor, are the same interfaces we used back when the first PC's came out?
They have improved in resolution and speed, but there's only so many techniques you can use to present new ideas and concepts with those tools..</sentencetext>
</comment>
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--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31266644
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_18_2230217.31197764
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