<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_02_17_1642213</id>
	<title>"Logan's Run" Syndrome In Programming</title>
	<author>CmdrTaco</author>
	<datestamp>1266426660000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>Ian Lamont writes <i>"InfoWorld has an interesting analysis of <a href="http://www.infoworld.com/d/adventures-in-it/painful-truth-about-age-discrimination-in-tech-209?page=0,0">the reasons behind the relative dearth of programmers over the age of 40</a>. While some people may assume that the recession has provided a handy cover for age discrimination, a closer look suggests that it's the nature of IT itself to push its elderly workers out, in what the article describes as a 'Logan's Run'-like marketplace. A bunch of factors are listed as reasons, including management's misunderstanding of the ways in which developers work: 'Any developer can tell you that not all C or PHP or Java programmers are created equal; some are vastly more productive or creative. However, unless or until there is a way to explicitly demonstrate the productivity differential between a good programmer and a mediocre one, inexperienced or nontechnical hiring managers tend to look at resumes with an eye for youth, under the "more bang for the buck" theory. Cheaper young 'uns will work longer hours and produce more code. The very concept of viewing experience as an asset for raising productivity is a non-factor &mdash; much to the detriment of the developer workplace.'"</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ian Lamont writes " InfoWorld has an interesting analysis of the reasons behind the relative dearth of programmers over the age of 40 .
While some people may assume that the recession has provided a handy cover for age discrimination , a closer look suggests that it 's the nature of IT itself to push its elderly workers out , in what the article describes as a 'Logan 's Run'-like marketplace .
A bunch of factors are listed as reasons , including management 's misunderstanding of the ways in which developers work : 'Any developer can tell you that not all C or PHP or Java programmers are created equal ; some are vastly more productive or creative .
However , unless or until there is a way to explicitly demonstrate the productivity differential between a good programmer and a mediocre one , inexperienced or nontechnical hiring managers tend to look at resumes with an eye for youth , under the " more bang for the buck " theory .
Cheaper young 'uns will work longer hours and produce more code .
The very concept of viewing experience as an asset for raising productivity is a non-factor    much to the detriment of the developer workplace .
' "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ian Lamont writes "InfoWorld has an interesting analysis of the reasons behind the relative dearth of programmers over the age of 40.
While some people may assume that the recession has provided a handy cover for age discrimination, a closer look suggests that it's the nature of IT itself to push its elderly workers out, in what the article describes as a 'Logan's Run'-like marketplace.
A bunch of factors are listed as reasons, including management's misunderstanding of the ways in which developers work: 'Any developer can tell you that not all C or PHP or Java programmers are created equal; some are vastly more productive or creative.
However, unless or until there is a way to explicitly demonstrate the productivity differential between a good programmer and a mediocre one, inexperienced or nontechnical hiring managers tend to look at resumes with an eye for youth, under the "more bang for the buck" theory.
Cheaper young 'uns will work longer hours and produce more code.
The very concept of viewing experience as an asset for raising productivity is a non-factor — much to the detriment of the developer workplace.
'"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31180380</id>
	<title>Re:Youthful arrogance....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265046060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's not the younger programmers, it's the younger managers. They read slashdot too, because in the 21st century, being a nerd is cool. Or at least acting like one. Actual knowledge is not required.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's not the younger programmers , it 's the younger managers .
They read slashdot too , because in the 21st century , being a nerd is cool .
Or at least acting like one .
Actual knowledge is not required .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's not the younger programmers, it's the younger managers.
They read slashdot too, because in the 21st century, being a nerd is cool.
Or at least acting like one.
Actual knowledge is not required.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172100</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173160</id>
	<title>Sorry, at Age 68, I'm Still Having a Ball!</title>
	<author>CAOgdin</author>
	<datestamp>1265052360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Now, admittedly, I'm an independent business owner and computer consultant.  But, that means I have to sell myself to every prospective client each time they're first introduced to my company and my services.

I build systems, providing "contract CIO" advisory services, write the odd special-purpose program (or modify one for a client's specific needs), and all for a fee I can characterize as "a pretty penny."

Age discrimination is, in my opinion, in a convenient excuse for not staying abreast of the latest advances and tools.  I'm spending my time, just as this is being written, figuring out the ins'n'outs of Windows 7, so I can do a better job for my clients, whom I expect will be upgrading over the coming months.  My erstwhile competitors, aged 30-50, are still insisting the only solution for client problems is a wholesale reinstall of Windows XP Pro.

Most people peg my age at "mid-50s."  Is my appearance a bonus...or a consequence of my insistance on investing hours every week in learning new things and in keeping my mind "fresh."</htmltext>
<tokenext>Now , admittedly , I 'm an independent business owner and computer consultant .
But , that means I have to sell myself to every prospective client each time they 're first introduced to my company and my services .
I build systems , providing " contract CIO " advisory services , write the odd special-purpose program ( or modify one for a client 's specific needs ) , and all for a fee I can characterize as " a pretty penny .
" Age discrimination is , in my opinion , in a convenient excuse for not staying abreast of the latest advances and tools .
I 'm spending my time , just as this is being written , figuring out the ins'n'outs of Windows 7 , so I can do a better job for my clients , whom I expect will be upgrading over the coming months .
My erstwhile competitors , aged 30-50 , are still insisting the only solution for client problems is a wholesale reinstall of Windows XP Pro .
Most people peg my age at " mid-50s .
" Is my appearance a bonus...or a consequence of my insistance on investing hours every week in learning new things and in keeping my mind " fresh .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Now, admittedly, I'm an independent business owner and computer consultant.
But, that means I have to sell myself to every prospective client each time they're first introduced to my company and my services.
I build systems, providing "contract CIO" advisory services, write the odd special-purpose program (or modify one for a client's specific needs), and all for a fee I can characterize as "a pretty penny.
"

Age discrimination is, in my opinion, in a convenient excuse for not staying abreast of the latest advances and tools.
I'm spending my time, just as this is being written, figuring out the ins'n'outs of Windows 7, so I can do a better job for my clients, whom I expect will be upgrading over the coming months.
My erstwhile competitors, aged 30-50, are still insisting the only solution for client problems is a wholesale reinstall of Windows XP Pro.
Most people peg my age at "mid-50s.
"  Is my appearance a bonus...or a consequence of my insistance on investing hours every week in learning new things and in keeping my mind "fresh.
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171678</id>
	<title>Obivous Answer</title>
	<author>cabjf</author>
	<datestamp>1265048040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>Eventually people do tend to get promoted beyond programming positions.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Eventually people do tend to get promoted beyond programming positions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Eventually people do tend to get promoted beyond programming positions.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31175576</id>
	<title>Turned 40 in 1998 .. still writing code</title>
	<author>talexb</author>
	<datestamp>1265017440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, of course, I do more than write Perl. Been doing that for over ten years.</p><p>I also deal with web stuff, like explaining to a co-worker that it is actually possible to do an HTTP re-direction while including a cookie in the request.</p><p>And I deal with the usual database CRUD code. I'm using DB2 now, before that I spent five years each on PostgreSQL and then MySQL.</p><p>And I know enough about SysAdmin stuff to set up an NFS server and configure Apache.</p><p>And before forex, I worked in finance, pharmacy management, robotics and data communications. And before Perl I wrote C and assembler for 15 years.</p><p>I'm still *way* too fascinated in solving technical problems and writing great code to think about doing something else.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , of course , I do more than write Perl .
Been doing that for over ten years.I also deal with web stuff , like explaining to a co-worker that it is actually possible to do an HTTP re-direction while including a cookie in the request.And I deal with the usual database CRUD code .
I 'm using DB2 now , before that I spent five years each on PostgreSQL and then MySQL.And I know enough about SysAdmin stuff to set up an NFS server and configure Apache.And before forex , I worked in finance , pharmacy management , robotics and data communications .
And before Perl I wrote C and assembler for 15 years.I 'm still * way * too fascinated in solving technical problems and writing great code to think about doing something else .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, of course, I do more than write Perl.
Been doing that for over ten years.I also deal with web stuff, like explaining to a co-worker that it is actually possible to do an HTTP re-direction while including a cookie in the request.And I deal with the usual database CRUD code.
I'm using DB2 now, before that I spent five years each on PostgreSQL and then MySQL.And I know enough about SysAdmin stuff to set up an NFS server and configure Apache.And before forex, I worked in finance, pharmacy management, robotics and data communications.
And before Perl I wrote C and assembler for 15 years.I'm still *way* too fascinated in solving technical problems and writing great code to think about doing something else.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31176168</id>
	<title>Re:Kids Today</title>
	<author>rastos1</author>
	<datestamp>1265019360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Why, when I was your age, we had to chisel bluestone megaliths using only hand tools, and then haul those four-ton stones into a circular pattern, just to calculate date()<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...!</p></div></blockquote><p>

Did it involve any virgins too?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why , when I was your age , we had to chisel bluestone megaliths using only hand tools , and then haul those four-ton stones into a circular pattern , just to calculate date ( ) ... !
Did it involve any virgins too ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why, when I was your age, we had to chisel bluestone megaliths using only hand tools, and then haul those four-ton stones into a circular pattern, just to calculate date() ...!
Did it involve any virgins too?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171952</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31174512</id>
	<title>Re:"Elderly"?!?!?</title>
	<author>Cylix</author>
	<datestamp>1265056980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Carousel... carousel....</p><p>I'm sure you've seen the vacation advertisement in your inbox.</p><p>It might have been pushed to your spam folder.</p><p>The whole free vacation wording nearly ensures no one ever witnesses the evite.</p><p>Just make sure you write a review on your experience<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Carousel... carousel....I 'm sure you 've seen the vacation advertisement in your inbox.It might have been pushed to your spam folder.The whole free vacation wording nearly ensures no one ever witnesses the evite.Just make sure you write a review on your experience ; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Carousel... carousel....I'm sure you've seen the vacation advertisement in your inbox.It might have been pushed to your spam folder.The whole free vacation wording nearly ensures no one ever witnesses the evite.Just make sure you write a review on your experience ;)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171656</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172572</id>
	<title>Is Experience Worth Anything?</title>
	<author>itsdrewmiller</author>
	<datestamp>1265050680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I recently read Peopleware, where they said that in their coding war games experience had no correlation with performance.  If experience costs more and has no benefit in development, why would a firm be willing to pay more for it?

(Caveat: Maybe experience has beneficial effects outside of raw development.)</htmltext>
<tokenext>I recently read Peopleware , where they said that in their coding war games experience had no correlation with performance .
If experience costs more and has no benefit in development , why would a firm be willing to pay more for it ?
( Caveat : Maybe experience has beneficial effects outside of raw development .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I recently read Peopleware, where they said that in their coding war games experience had no correlation with performance.
If experience costs more and has no benefit in development, why would a firm be willing to pay more for it?
(Caveat: Maybe experience has beneficial effects outside of raw development.
)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172426</id>
	<title>Good workers are promoted out of their jobs...</title>
	<author>Yaa 101</author>
	<datestamp>1265050260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Good workers are promoted out of their jobs and forced into management positions, this is a problem.<br>Further it still seems that coders are accounted on the number of lines they produce instead of the quality and thoroughness.<br>You can see this in things like 500MB of crap that is mandatory with a driver installment of your HP scanner.</p><p>It is very hard for managers to see the quality of coders that just want to keep growing scales inside their programming jobs, while making artificial caps on these scales and forcing people that want to grow further to do managerial work instead of what they really like to do and be good at. Often people that are forced up do their managerial work not really good because their hart is not in that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Good workers are promoted out of their jobs and forced into management positions , this is a problem.Further it still seems that coders are accounted on the number of lines they produce instead of the quality and thoroughness.You can see this in things like 500MB of crap that is mandatory with a driver installment of your HP scanner.It is very hard for managers to see the quality of coders that just want to keep growing scales inside their programming jobs , while making artificial caps on these scales and forcing people that want to grow further to do managerial work instead of what they really like to do and be good at .
Often people that are forced up do their managerial work not really good because their hart is not in that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Good workers are promoted out of their jobs and forced into management positions, this is a problem.Further it still seems that coders are accounted on the number of lines they produce instead of the quality and thoroughness.You can see this in things like 500MB of crap that is mandatory with a driver installment of your HP scanner.It is very hard for managers to see the quality of coders that just want to keep growing scales inside their programming jobs, while making artificial caps on these scales and forcing people that want to grow further to do managerial work instead of what they really like to do and be good at.
Often people that are forced up do their managerial work not really good because their hart is not in that.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31175664</id>
	<title>Re:Obivous Answer</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265017620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I think the real reason is simple. People older than me (almost 40) are likely to be mainframe programmers. Back then, there weren't a lot of computers.</p></div><p>Yes and we only had wind up light bulbs as electricity hadn't been invented yet either.
</p><p>Give me a break.  I'm over 40 and have NEVER programmed on a mainframe, nor has anyone I know.  Maybe if you said people over 60 I'd agree with you.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think the real reason is simple .
People older than me ( almost 40 ) are likely to be mainframe programmers .
Back then , there were n't a lot of computers.Yes and we only had wind up light bulbs as electricity had n't been invented yet either .
Give me a break .
I 'm over 40 and have NEVER programmed on a mainframe , nor has anyone I know .
Maybe if you said people over 60 I 'd agree with you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think the real reason is simple.
People older than me (almost 40) are likely to be mainframe programmers.
Back then, there weren't a lot of computers.Yes and we only had wind up light bulbs as electricity hadn't been invented yet either.
Give me a break.
I'm over 40 and have NEVER programmed on a mainframe, nor has anyone I know.
Maybe if you said people over 60 I'd agree with you.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172346</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31182060</id>
	<title>Don't agree</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266491160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I really don't agree, from my experience in the companies I have worked at it is the younger programmers for the most part that are the better programmers, simply because they were trained with more modern technologies and skills. The number of programmers aged 35-40+ that I have encountered that don't even understand the concept of Objhect orientated coding is ridiculous, and this is one of the reasons that one of the places I work was still using legacy C based code rather than upgrading to more efficient and easier to manipulate OO code(not mentioning specifics but for what was being done OO would have been a lot better). The older developer(and the ones that are listened to by management more) did not understand  the concept or the benefits and so was holding the business back drastically.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I really do n't agree , from my experience in the companies I have worked at it is the younger programmers for the most part that are the better programmers , simply because they were trained with more modern technologies and skills .
The number of programmers aged 35-40 + that I have encountered that do n't even understand the concept of Objhect orientated coding is ridiculous , and this is one of the reasons that one of the places I work was still using legacy C based code rather than upgrading to more efficient and easier to manipulate OO code ( not mentioning specifics but for what was being done OO would have been a lot better ) .
The older developer ( and the ones that are listened to by management more ) did not understand the concept or the benefits and so was holding the business back drastically .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I really don't agree, from my experience in the companies I have worked at it is the younger programmers for the most part that are the better programmers, simply because they were trained with more modern technologies and skills.
The number of programmers aged 35-40+ that I have encountered that don't even understand the concept of Objhect orientated coding is ridiculous, and this is one of the reasons that one of the places I work was still using legacy C based code rather than upgrading to more efficient and easier to manipulate OO code(not mentioning specifics but for what was being done OO would have been a lot better).
The older developer(and the ones that are listened to by management more) did not understand  the concept or the benefits and so was holding the business back drastically.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31182330</id>
	<title>Re:Obivous Answer</title>
	<author>dcw3</author>
	<datestamp>1266494460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I think the real reason is simple.  People older than me (almost 40) are likely to be mainframe programmers.  Back then, there weren't a lot of computers.  So there weren't a lot of programmers.  The office where I work now is filled with people around 40yo doing c++/unix.  Come back in about 10 or 20 years, and you'll see a lot of older programmers.</p></div><p>51 here, and I was working on minis (DG Nova was my first) back in the late 70s.  The majority of us have moved to management or SE positions.  Recent layoffs I've seen have all been targeting older developers.  I'm surprised they haven't resulted in more age discrimination suits.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think the real reason is simple .
People older than me ( almost 40 ) are likely to be mainframe programmers .
Back then , there were n't a lot of computers .
So there were n't a lot of programmers .
The office where I work now is filled with people around 40yo doing c + + /unix .
Come back in about 10 or 20 years , and you 'll see a lot of older programmers.51 here , and I was working on minis ( DG Nova was my first ) back in the late 70s .
The majority of us have moved to management or SE positions .
Recent layoffs I 've seen have all been targeting older developers .
I 'm surprised they have n't resulted in more age discrimination suits .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think the real reason is simple.
People older than me (almost 40) are likely to be mainframe programmers.
Back then, there weren't a lot of computers.
So there weren't a lot of programmers.
The office where I work now is filled with people around 40yo doing c++/unix.
Come back in about 10 or 20 years, and you'll see a lot of older programmers.51 here, and I was working on minis (DG Nova was my first) back in the late 70s.
The majority of us have moved to management or SE positions.
Recent layoffs I've seen have all been targeting older developers.
I'm surprised they haven't resulted in more age discrimination suits.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172346</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31202648</id>
	<title>The saddest part...</title>
	<author>mforbes</author>
	<datestamp>1266611460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>... is realizing that most people who aren't old enough to be affected by the "Logan's Run" effect probably had to Google to find out exactly what Logan's Run was!</htmltext>
<tokenext>... is realizing that most people who are n't old enough to be affected by the " Logan 's Run " effect probably had to Google to find out exactly what Logan 's Run was !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... is realizing that most people who aren't old enough to be affected by the "Logan's Run" effect probably had to Google to find out exactly what Logan's Run was!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172582</id>
	<title>Oh crap!</title>
	<author>stox</author>
	<datestamp>1265050740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Is that what that glowing thing in my palm has been trying to tell me the last 8 years?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is that what that glowing thing in my palm has been trying to tell me the last 8 years ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is that what that glowing thing in my palm has been trying to tell me the last 8 years?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31192916</id>
	<title>Re:we just hired an older programmer</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266496020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>we have programmers what are in their 60s and used to have one guy who was in his 70s who was working part time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>we have programmers what are in their 60s and used to have one guy who was in his 70s who was working part time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>we have programmers what are in their 60s and used to have one guy who was in his 70s who was working part time.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173608</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31174806</id>
	<title>Re:Age Test</title>
	<author>elrous0</author>
	<datestamp>1265014800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>What am I if I was thinking about the shiny robot?</htmltext>
<tokenext>What am I if I was thinking about the shiny robot ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What am I if I was thinking about the shiny robot?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172116</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171952</id>
	<title>Kids Today</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265048760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Kids today have it easy -- context sensitive development environments, online documentation, etc. etc.</p><p>Why, when I was your age, we had to chisel bluestone megaliths using only hand tools, and then haul those four-ton stones into a circular pattern, just to calculate date()<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Kids today have it easy -- context sensitive development environments , online documentation , etc .
etc.Why , when I was your age , we had to chisel bluestone megaliths using only hand tools , and then haul those four-ton stones into a circular pattern , just to calculate date ( ) ... !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Kids today have it easy -- context sensitive development environments, online documentation, etc.
etc.Why, when I was your age, we had to chisel bluestone megaliths using only hand tools, and then haul those four-ton stones into a circular pattern, just to calculate date() ...!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31177588</id>
	<title>Re:Obivous Answer</title>
	<author>starfishsystems</author>
	<datestamp>1265025000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Thanks for your comments.  I seem to be chatting a lot on this thread, but perhaps I could make one more contribution.
<br> <br>
Indeed, there have been a lot of changes since I started programming in 1972, though I must say that they are essentially cosmetic ones.  I've learned a lot, and I continue to learn a lot.  In other words, the learning process itself is pretty much unchanged.  The results of mathematics and computer science have not been overturned.  I especially like to point this out because it helps to reinforce the message that there <i>are</i> areas of knowledge worthy of career investment.  I don't necessarily mean formal computer science either, but perhaps areas which will ultimately be formalized.  I always tell people to look for the underlying principles and design patterns, however they may present themselves, and master them.  This is true whether you're developing software, doing systems architecture or security or operations or whatever.  Watch for the deep principles.
<br> <br>
People who don't do this are in for a short career lifetime.  I think this is what you mean by people not having kept up - but I don't think it's about technology changes so much as whether a person is stuck in surface appearances or able to see past them.  For example, apart from surface appearance, XML is no different than the S-expressions that interested John McCarthy in the 1950s.  It's easy to adapt to new technologies when you can anticipate most of how they're going to work from first principles.  And so it's easy to keep up.
<br> <br>
Things are just more convenient now.  That's the main difference.  I've never seen an IDE that will do the thinking for me.  Na&#239;ve people can produce bad designs more quickly, but fortunately, experienced people can produce good designs more quickly as well.  It follows, therefore, that at every level you still need to be able to distinguish between good and bad design.  Simply having fancy tools means nothing, but then, it never did.
<br> <br>
In that all-important sense, software design has not changed at all.  Nor has the management of software designers.  You still have to sift the effective people from the not-so-effective.  You still have to ask "why" at every point where a design decision has been made.  I can separate the competent from the incompetent in five minutes of discussion that way.
<br> <br>
It's true that the competent people make a smaller pile, but that's statistically inevitable.  Despite the abundant frustrations which people report in this career, I think that the outlook for competent people over the long term is excellent.  Merit, ultimately, is what differentiates between good outcomes and bad outcomes.  Management which sees this will be more successful than management which doesn't.  It may be a slow and bumpy road, but that's where we're headed.
<br> <br>
And finally, there is the matter of literacy.  In my view, this is a huge factor.  As the common level of computer literacy gradually rises, people who are not literate are just not as credible as they used to be.  It's inevitable.  For some time they've been drifting into easier careers.  That raises the bar still further.  And it's great news for the rest of us.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Thanks for your comments .
I seem to be chatting a lot on this thread , but perhaps I could make one more contribution .
Indeed , there have been a lot of changes since I started programming in 1972 , though I must say that they are essentially cosmetic ones .
I 've learned a lot , and I continue to learn a lot .
In other words , the learning process itself is pretty much unchanged .
The results of mathematics and computer science have not been overturned .
I especially like to point this out because it helps to reinforce the message that there are areas of knowledge worthy of career investment .
I do n't necessarily mean formal computer science either , but perhaps areas which will ultimately be formalized .
I always tell people to look for the underlying principles and design patterns , however they may present themselves , and master them .
This is true whether you 're developing software , doing systems architecture or security or operations or whatever .
Watch for the deep principles .
People who do n't do this are in for a short career lifetime .
I think this is what you mean by people not having kept up - but I do n't think it 's about technology changes so much as whether a person is stuck in surface appearances or able to see past them .
For example , apart from surface appearance , XML is no different than the S-expressions that interested John McCarthy in the 1950s .
It 's easy to adapt to new technologies when you can anticipate most of how they 're going to work from first principles .
And so it 's easy to keep up .
Things are just more convenient now .
That 's the main difference .
I 've never seen an IDE that will do the thinking for me .
Na   ve people can produce bad designs more quickly , but fortunately , experienced people can produce good designs more quickly as well .
It follows , therefore , that at every level you still need to be able to distinguish between good and bad design .
Simply having fancy tools means nothing , but then , it never did .
In that all-important sense , software design has not changed at all .
Nor has the management of software designers .
You still have to sift the effective people from the not-so-effective .
You still have to ask " why " at every point where a design decision has been made .
I can separate the competent from the incompetent in five minutes of discussion that way .
It 's true that the competent people make a smaller pile , but that 's statistically inevitable .
Despite the abundant frustrations which people report in this career , I think that the outlook for competent people over the long term is excellent .
Merit , ultimately , is what differentiates between good outcomes and bad outcomes .
Management which sees this will be more successful than management which does n't .
It may be a slow and bumpy road , but that 's where we 're headed .
And finally , there is the matter of literacy .
In my view , this is a huge factor .
As the common level of computer literacy gradually rises , people who are not literate are just not as credible as they used to be .
It 's inevitable .
For some time they 've been drifting into easier careers .
That raises the bar still further .
And it 's great news for the rest of us .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thanks for your comments.
I seem to be chatting a lot on this thread, but perhaps I could make one more contribution.
Indeed, there have been a lot of changes since I started programming in 1972, though I must say that they are essentially cosmetic ones.
I've learned a lot, and I continue to learn a lot.
In other words, the learning process itself is pretty much unchanged.
The results of mathematics and computer science have not been overturned.
I especially like to point this out because it helps to reinforce the message that there are areas of knowledge worthy of career investment.
I don't necessarily mean formal computer science either, but perhaps areas which will ultimately be formalized.
I always tell people to look for the underlying principles and design patterns, however they may present themselves, and master them.
This is true whether you're developing software, doing systems architecture or security or operations or whatever.
Watch for the deep principles.
People who don't do this are in for a short career lifetime.
I think this is what you mean by people not having kept up - but I don't think it's about technology changes so much as whether a person is stuck in surface appearances or able to see past them.
For example, apart from surface appearance, XML is no different than the S-expressions that interested John McCarthy in the 1950s.
It's easy to adapt to new technologies when you can anticipate most of how they're going to work from first principles.
And so it's easy to keep up.
Things are just more convenient now.
That's the main difference.
I've never seen an IDE that will do the thinking for me.
Naïve people can produce bad designs more quickly, but fortunately, experienced people can produce good designs more quickly as well.
It follows, therefore, that at every level you still need to be able to distinguish between good and bad design.
Simply having fancy tools means nothing, but then, it never did.
In that all-important sense, software design has not changed at all.
Nor has the management of software designers.
You still have to sift the effective people from the not-so-effective.
You still have to ask "why" at every point where a design decision has been made.
I can separate the competent from the incompetent in five minutes of discussion that way.
It's true that the competent people make a smaller pile, but that's statistically inevitable.
Despite the abundant frustrations which people report in this career, I think that the outlook for competent people over the long term is excellent.
Merit, ultimately, is what differentiates between good outcomes and bad outcomes.
Management which sees this will be more successful than management which doesn't.
It may be a slow and bumpy road, but that's where we're headed.
And finally, there is the matter of literacy.
In my view, this is a huge factor.
As the common level of computer literacy gradually rises, people who are not literate are just not as credible as they used to be.
It's inevitable.
For some time they've been drifting into easier careers.
That raises the bar still further.
And it's great news for the rest of us.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31176086</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31176818</id>
	<title>Re:No really</title>
	<author>Maxo-Texas</author>
	<datestamp>1265021940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... because if the older employee asks for the lower salary then they are not hired because they are "over qualified".</p><p>Listen, look at the job ads.  Sometimes the companies are actually stupid enough to say "looking for a young, dynamic, blah blah blah".  If not, they'll use code like, "must work to a deadline", "cutting edge technology shop", "fun casual atmosphere" which stands for "young people come here- old people go away".</p><p>HP is currently only hiring people who graduated college in the last 2 or 3 years. The rational is "because then the experience is current!" but the real reason is age discrimination.  Indian companies in america are extremely insistent on getting your high school graduation date (not your college graduation date) on your resume.  it's a *requirement* to submit a resume for some of the larger companies.</p><p>Now--- what possible value is knowing a person's high school graduation date????</p><p>The only possible valid response to a requirement like that is to lie or sue.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No ... because if the older employee asks for the lower salary then they are not hired because they are " over qualified " .Listen , look at the job ads .
Sometimes the companies are actually stupid enough to say " looking for a young , dynamic , blah blah blah " .
If not , they 'll use code like , " must work to a deadline " , " cutting edge technology shop " , " fun casual atmosphere " which stands for " young people come here- old people go away " .HP is currently only hiring people who graduated college in the last 2 or 3 years .
The rational is " because then the experience is current !
" but the real reason is age discrimination .
Indian companies in america are extremely insistent on getting your high school graduation date ( not your college graduation date ) on your resume .
it 's a * requirement * to submit a resume for some of the larger companies.Now--- what possible value is knowing a person 's high school graduation date ? ? ?
? The only possible valid response to a requirement like that is to lie or sue .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No ... because if the older employee asks for the lower salary then they are not hired because they are "over qualified".Listen, look at the job ads.
Sometimes the companies are actually stupid enough to say "looking for a young, dynamic, blah blah blah".
If not, they'll use code like, "must work to a deadline", "cutting edge technology shop", "fun casual atmosphere" which stands for "young people come here- old people go away".HP is currently only hiring people who graduated college in the last 2 or 3 years.
The rational is "because then the experience is current!
" but the real reason is age discrimination.
Indian companies in america are extremely insistent on getting your high school graduation date (not your college graduation date) on your resume.
it's a *requirement* to submit a resume for some of the larger companies.Now--- what possible value is knowing a person's high school graduation date???
?The only possible valid response to a requirement like that is to lie or sue.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171932</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173388</id>
	<title>Old programmers - become "they"</title>
	<author>presidenteloco</author>
	<datestamp>1265053200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Remember, when blaming "they" ("they do this","they don't know that") there really is no "they".<br>It's different executives each time.</p><p>Fundamentally, it is up to old programmers to start their own tech companies, so that<br>programmers can be given the gift of not having to work for non-technical managers<br>who don't understand what is important in programming ability and programming environment.</p><p>Google. Geek executives. Need I say more?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Remember , when blaming " they " ( " they do this " , " they do n't know that " ) there really is no " they " .It 's different executives each time.Fundamentally , it is up to old programmers to start their own tech companies , so thatprogrammers can be given the gift of not having to work for non-technical managerswho do n't understand what is important in programming ability and programming environment.Google .
Geek executives .
Need I say more ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Remember, when blaming "they" ("they do this","they don't know that") there really is no "they".It's different executives each time.Fundamentally, it is up to old programmers to start their own tech companies, so thatprogrammers can be given the gift of not having to work for non-technical managerswho don't understand what is important in programming ability and programming environment.Google.
Geek executives.
Need I say more?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173374</id>
	<title>Re:It is age discrimination</title>
	<author>Dumnezeu</author>
	<datestamp>1265053140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How about this: older workers have families to feed and they're more experienced.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How about this : older workers have families to feed and they 're more experienced .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about this: older workers have families to feed and they're more experienced.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172088</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31174388</id>
	<title>Our narrative can't compete...</title>
	<author>eagee</author>
	<datestamp>1265056560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The value of experience is very hard to explain to a person whos choices are, "Do I please my investors and get a 7 million dollar bonus this year" or "Do I invest time and money in a team that can do this right the first time". For them, younger workers means more cogs (lines of code) off the assembly line, and those young engineers often don't have the experience to know any better. That's just how bean counters think. <br>  <br> My advice, try to find work at a company that isn't run by an MBA (unless they were an engineer first).</htmltext>
<tokenext>The value of experience is very hard to explain to a person whos choices are , " Do I please my investors and get a 7 million dollar bonus this year " or " Do I invest time and money in a team that can do this right the first time " .
For them , younger workers means more cogs ( lines of code ) off the assembly line , and those young engineers often do n't have the experience to know any better .
That 's just how bean counters think .
My advice , try to find work at a company that is n't run by an MBA ( unless they were an engineer first ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The value of experience is very hard to explain to a person whos choices are, "Do I please my investors and get a 7 million dollar bonus this year" or "Do I invest time and money in a team that can do this right the first time".
For them, younger workers means more cogs (lines of code) off the assembly line, and those young engineers often don't have the experience to know any better.
That's just how bean counters think.
My advice, try to find work at a company that isn't run by an MBA (unless they were an engineer first).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173726</id>
	<title>Re:jaded</title>
	<author>hondo77</author>
	<datestamp>1265054340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>the other kind of older programmer has just given up. they know better, but they understand
that bitching isn't going to solve anything and they need the health insurance. they look alot
less capable then they are because they just agree with everything and try to get out the door
by 5.</p></div><p>Stop following me around!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>the other kind of older programmer has just given up .
they know better , but they understand that bitching is n't going to solve anything and they need the health insurance .
they look alot less capable then they are because they just agree with everything and try to get out the door by 5.Stop following me around !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>the other kind of older programmer has just given up.
they know better, but they understand
that bitching isn't going to solve anything and they need the health insurance.
they look alot
less capable then they are because they just agree with everything and try to get out the door
by 5.Stop following me around!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171880</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31182520</id>
	<title>Re:Obivous Answer</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266496500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Code monkeys? Did you read the post you replied to? Its whole point is that the attitude that programmers are code monkeys is wrong. Ask Donald Knuth is he still has anything more to learn about writing code or he's just a code monkey. The false division of labor you imply is there are smart designers and stupid keyboard monkeys who "type code".</p><p>"Code monkeys" is unintentional code for "the perspective of a stupid managment team".</p><p>It's amusing to see that when people are confronted with the invisceration of their own wrong-headed ideas, they only see the confirmation of those ideas even as they agree excitedly with the invisceration.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Code monkeys ?
Did you read the post you replied to ?
Its whole point is that the attitude that programmers are code monkeys is wrong .
Ask Donald Knuth is he still has anything more to learn about writing code or he 's just a code monkey .
The false division of labor you imply is there are smart designers and stupid keyboard monkeys who " type code " .
" Code monkeys " is unintentional code for " the perspective of a stupid managment team " .It 's amusing to see that when people are confronted with the invisceration of their own wrong-headed ideas , they only see the confirmation of those ideas even as they agree excitedly with the invisceration .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Code monkeys?
Did you read the post you replied to?
Its whole point is that the attitude that programmers are code monkeys is wrong.
Ask Donald Knuth is he still has anything more to learn about writing code or he's just a code monkey.
The false division of labor you imply is there are smart designers and stupid keyboard monkeys who "type code".
"Code monkeys" is unintentional code for "the perspective of a stupid managment team".It's amusing to see that when people are confronted with the invisceration of their own wrong-headed ideas, they only see the confirmation of those ideas even as they agree excitedly with the invisceration.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31174146</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172624</id>
	<title>No, it is not age discrimination...</title>
	<author>Jahava</author>
	<datestamp>1265050860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The summary says that it's not merely age discrimination, then goes on to say that they hire younger workers because they are cheaper, without bothering to account for experience. That is age discrimination.</p></div><p>That is not age discrimination. Younger workers are hired because they are cheaper, not because they are younger. If two people cost the same and the older of the two was better-qualified, but the younger was hired anyway, <em>that</em> is age discrimination. I can see why you would be confused, since younger people tend to also cost less.
</p><p>
Unfortunately, programming experience doesn't linearly scale with code quality. Eventually, the gain in code quality tapers off, and the more-experienced higher-salaried employee is not worth paying extra for. There are exceptions<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... some people are just phenomenal developers and are hard to replace<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... but this article is not about them.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The summary says that it 's not merely age discrimination , then goes on to say that they hire younger workers because they are cheaper , without bothering to account for experience .
That is age discrimination.That is not age discrimination .
Younger workers are hired because they are cheaper , not because they are younger .
If two people cost the same and the older of the two was better-qualified , but the younger was hired anyway , that is age discrimination .
I can see why you would be confused , since younger people tend to also cost less .
Unfortunately , programming experience does n't linearly scale with code quality .
Eventually , the gain in code quality tapers off , and the more-experienced higher-salaried employee is not worth paying extra for .
There are exceptions ... some people are just phenomenal developers and are hard to replace ... but this article is not about them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The summary says that it's not merely age discrimination, then goes on to say that they hire younger workers because they are cheaper, without bothering to account for experience.
That is age discrimination.That is not age discrimination.
Younger workers are hired because they are cheaper, not because they are younger.
If two people cost the same and the older of the two was better-qualified, but the younger was hired anyway, that is age discrimination.
I can see why you would be confused, since younger people tend to also cost less.
Unfortunately, programming experience doesn't linearly scale with code quality.
Eventually, the gain in code quality tapers off, and the more-experienced higher-salaried employee is not worth paying extra for.
There are exceptions ... some people are just phenomenal developers and are hard to replace ... but this article is not about them.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171842</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31175976</id>
	<title>Elder programmers can be good and productive.</title>
	<author>RogerWilco</author>
	<datestamp>1265018640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I work at an institute that basically had its major growth around 1970. The people then hired are now close to retirement age but a lot still work here. Still I'd say that some of my colleagues over 60 are among the most up-to-date and productive among our workforce (I'm 33).</p><p>We have a nearly flat age distribution from about 25 to 65 in each cohort. My experience is that age is not a relevant factor in my institute and I think the IT industry, if the people involved are given the time to stay up-to-date in their field, and are willing to learn.</p><p>I have a colleague of 66 years old who just spent the last weeks learning Python. When he started his programs would be sent to a computing center 150km away once a week. He has kept learning new things his entire career, and even after retirement age he's still employed with us for 2 days a week because he enjoys it and management values his skill and knowledge.</p><p>I have a colleague of 55 who just wrote a mobile app for Layar. Another of 64 years old who writes some of the best Java I've seen.  A third one has written the standard work on how to process radio-interferometer data. And I could give at least another dozen examples or people over 50 that are good, current and productive in their work.</p><p>If I compare it to my first employer, where the oldest programmer was 45 and his knowledge made him a dinosaur, the difference is huge. And it's all about management giving the opportunity and hiring people willing to keep learning all their lives.</p><p>And it's not because we're in a slow moving line of work. We're doing cutting edge science and research work building the largest telescope in the world, space satellite components, integrated circuit and low-noise amplifier design, TFlop digital signal processing. We are one of the fastest and largest computing centres in Europe (top500 supercomputers (#6 in 2005), petabyte storage, 200 GBit/s connections). And only with about 200 employees.</p><p>But I'm diverging, basically what I want to say, is that unlike some back-breaking manual labour, people can be very productive in the IT industry until into retirement age, if you get the right kind of people and treat them correctly.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I work at an institute that basically had its major growth around 1970 .
The people then hired are now close to retirement age but a lot still work here .
Still I 'd say that some of my colleagues over 60 are among the most up-to-date and productive among our workforce ( I 'm 33 ) .We have a nearly flat age distribution from about 25 to 65 in each cohort .
My experience is that age is not a relevant factor in my institute and I think the IT industry , if the people involved are given the time to stay up-to-date in their field , and are willing to learn.I have a colleague of 66 years old who just spent the last weeks learning Python .
When he started his programs would be sent to a computing center 150km away once a week .
He has kept learning new things his entire career , and even after retirement age he 's still employed with us for 2 days a week because he enjoys it and management values his skill and knowledge.I have a colleague of 55 who just wrote a mobile app for Layar .
Another of 64 years old who writes some of the best Java I 've seen .
A third one has written the standard work on how to process radio-interferometer data .
And I could give at least another dozen examples or people over 50 that are good , current and productive in their work.If I compare it to my first employer , where the oldest programmer was 45 and his knowledge made him a dinosaur , the difference is huge .
And it 's all about management giving the opportunity and hiring people willing to keep learning all their lives.And it 's not because we 're in a slow moving line of work .
We 're doing cutting edge science and research work building the largest telescope in the world , space satellite components , integrated circuit and low-noise amplifier design , TFlop digital signal processing .
We are one of the fastest and largest computing centres in Europe ( top500 supercomputers ( # 6 in 2005 ) , petabyte storage , 200 GBit/s connections ) .
And only with about 200 employees.But I 'm diverging , basically what I want to say , is that unlike some back-breaking manual labour , people can be very productive in the IT industry until into retirement age , if you get the right kind of people and treat them correctly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I work at an institute that basically had its major growth around 1970.
The people then hired are now close to retirement age but a lot still work here.
Still I'd say that some of my colleagues over 60 are among the most up-to-date and productive among our workforce (I'm 33).We have a nearly flat age distribution from about 25 to 65 in each cohort.
My experience is that age is not a relevant factor in my institute and I think the IT industry, if the people involved are given the time to stay up-to-date in their field, and are willing to learn.I have a colleague of 66 years old who just spent the last weeks learning Python.
When he started his programs would be sent to a computing center 150km away once a week.
He has kept learning new things his entire career, and even after retirement age he's still employed with us for 2 days a week because he enjoys it and management values his skill and knowledge.I have a colleague of 55 who just wrote a mobile app for Layar.
Another of 64 years old who writes some of the best Java I've seen.
A third one has written the standard work on how to process radio-interferometer data.
And I could give at least another dozen examples or people over 50 that are good, current and productive in their work.If I compare it to my first employer, where the oldest programmer was 45 and his knowledge made him a dinosaur, the difference is huge.
And it's all about management giving the opportunity and hiring people willing to keep learning all their lives.And it's not because we're in a slow moving line of work.
We're doing cutting edge science and research work building the largest telescope in the world, space satellite components, integrated circuit and low-noise amplifier design, TFlop digital signal processing.
We are one of the fastest and largest computing centres in Europe (top500 supercomputers (#6 in 2005), petabyte storage, 200 GBit/s connections).
And only with about 200 employees.But I'm diverging, basically what I want to say, is that unlike some back-breaking manual labour, people can be very productive in the IT industry until into retirement age, if you get the right kind of people and treat them correctly.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31176746</id>
	<title>Re:A question for all you experienced types out th</title>
	<author>Jimmy King</author>
	<datestamp>1265021700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'll third the Python vote.  It's pretty cool, it takes less infrastructure and extra non-sense than C# or Java if you're looking to do web apps, etc.<br><br>I also really like Perl and it's what I do as my full time job.  It's mostly dying out though and I think many of the jobs that used to be Perl jobs are now (or soon will be) Python jobs.  I know you said you're just looking at it from a hobby standpoint, but hey, why not have a hobby that could be useful to your career later on if you change your mind or your life takes an unexpected turn?</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'll third the Python vote .
It 's pretty cool , it takes less infrastructure and extra non-sense than C # or Java if you 're looking to do web apps , etc.I also really like Perl and it 's what I do as my full time job .
It 's mostly dying out though and I think many of the jobs that used to be Perl jobs are now ( or soon will be ) Python jobs .
I know you said you 're just looking at it from a hobby standpoint , but hey , why not have a hobby that could be useful to your career later on if you change your mind or your life takes an unexpected turn ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'll third the Python vote.
It's pretty cool, it takes less infrastructure and extra non-sense than C# or Java if you're looking to do web apps, etc.I also really like Perl and it's what I do as my full time job.
It's mostly dying out though and I think many of the jobs that used to be Perl jobs are now (or soon will be) Python jobs.
I know you said you're just looking at it from a hobby standpoint, but hey, why not have a hobby that could be useful to your career later on if you change your mind or your life takes an unexpected turn?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172812</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31174966</id>
	<title>Re:Experience</title>
	<author>malkavian</author>
	<datestamp>1265015460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Alas, that works well when people "play by the rules".<br>
What you're paying for is their time, plus what experience <b> <i>they say they they have</i><nobr> <wbr></nobr></b>.<br>
I've run a lot of interviews in my time, and the amount of pure charlatans you get who claim to know all about the latest tech, and be experts in it, is frankly worrying.  Unless you have years in the business, plus a strong technical background, you'd believe them.  Even when absolutely caught out they still keep speaking with that unshakable confidence and assertion that they're right.<br>
One guy that really sticks in the mind that came to interview claimed on the CV that he was an MVP, had years of experience, and checking the CV against the passport (which we do, for validating that someone is who they say they are), his professional programming career at a large financial allegedly started when he was 13.  He blatantly kept on saying that this was correct, and he was just a prodigy.  When asked if he knew of a spurious development paradigm (one we'd made up for interviews to see how people responded), he claimed years.   When told it was spurious (yes, we'd checked to definitely confirm there was no such thing before using it as an interview strategy) he blithely kept on saying how he used it to better his skills.<br>
He didn't know the detail of the basics, let alone the more advanced techniques the role was being posted for, but the sheer confidence he put forth, along with a whole stream of technical sounding buzzwords (and some that were pure bullshit, but still sounded technical) would have got him hired at a whole raft of places I know that have a PHB or a clueless HR department who put ticks in boxes, and then ask people not qualified to make the choice to pick the next candidate for a technical role.<br>
Yes, he's an extreme example, but there are an awful lot out there who play buzzword bingo to get a job with no real knowledge of what they're doing.  Sadly, a lot of them make it into positions and play politics from there to pass the blame round teams, and screw up products by ineptitude.<br>
I really don't mind paying the top dollar for the good people, but sheesh.. Half the problem out there is that unless you know enough to do the job yourself, it's all too easy to get hoodwinked by someone claiming to know what they're doing more than you do..  Most management don't know that, and HR departments certainly don't..</htmltext>
<tokenext>Alas , that works well when people " play by the rules " .
What you 're paying for is their time , plus what experience they say they they have .
I 've run a lot of interviews in my time , and the amount of pure charlatans you get who claim to know all about the latest tech , and be experts in it , is frankly worrying .
Unless you have years in the business , plus a strong technical background , you 'd believe them .
Even when absolutely caught out they still keep speaking with that unshakable confidence and assertion that they 're right .
One guy that really sticks in the mind that came to interview claimed on the CV that he was an MVP , had years of experience , and checking the CV against the passport ( which we do , for validating that someone is who they say they are ) , his professional programming career at a large financial allegedly started when he was 13 .
He blatantly kept on saying that this was correct , and he was just a prodigy .
When asked if he knew of a spurious development paradigm ( one we 'd made up for interviews to see how people responded ) , he claimed years .
When told it was spurious ( yes , we 'd checked to definitely confirm there was no such thing before using it as an interview strategy ) he blithely kept on saying how he used it to better his skills .
He did n't know the detail of the basics , let alone the more advanced techniques the role was being posted for , but the sheer confidence he put forth , along with a whole stream of technical sounding buzzwords ( and some that were pure bullshit , but still sounded technical ) would have got him hired at a whole raft of places I know that have a PHB or a clueless HR department who put ticks in boxes , and then ask people not qualified to make the choice to pick the next candidate for a technical role .
Yes , he 's an extreme example , but there are an awful lot out there who play buzzword bingo to get a job with no real knowledge of what they 're doing .
Sadly , a lot of them make it into positions and play politics from there to pass the blame round teams , and screw up products by ineptitude .
I really do n't mind paying the top dollar for the good people , but sheesh.. Half the problem out there is that unless you know enough to do the job yourself , it 's all too easy to get hoodwinked by someone claiming to know what they 're doing more than you do.. Most management do n't know that , and HR departments certainly do n't. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Alas, that works well when people "play by the rules".
What you're paying for is their time, plus what experience  they say they they have .
I've run a lot of interviews in my time, and the amount of pure charlatans you get who claim to know all about the latest tech, and be experts in it, is frankly worrying.
Unless you have years in the business, plus a strong technical background, you'd believe them.
Even when absolutely caught out they still keep speaking with that unshakable confidence and assertion that they're right.
One guy that really sticks in the mind that came to interview claimed on the CV that he was an MVP, had years of experience, and checking the CV against the passport (which we do, for validating that someone is who they say they are), his professional programming career at a large financial allegedly started when he was 13.
He blatantly kept on saying that this was correct, and he was just a prodigy.
When asked if he knew of a spurious development paradigm (one we'd made up for interviews to see how people responded), he claimed years.
When told it was spurious (yes, we'd checked to definitely confirm there was no such thing before using it as an interview strategy) he blithely kept on saying how he used it to better his skills.
He didn't know the detail of the basics, let alone the more advanced techniques the role was being posted for, but the sheer confidence he put forth, along with a whole stream of technical sounding buzzwords (and some that were pure bullshit, but still sounded technical) would have got him hired at a whole raft of places I know that have a PHB or a clueless HR department who put ticks in boxes, and then ask people not qualified to make the choice to pick the next candidate for a technical role.
Yes, he's an extreme example, but there are an awful lot out there who play buzzword bingo to get a job with no real knowledge of what they're doing.
Sadly, a lot of them make it into positions and play politics from there to pass the blame round teams, and screw up products by ineptitude.
I really don't mind paying the top dollar for the good people, but sheesh.. Half the problem out there is that unless you know enough to do the job yourself, it's all too easy to get hoodwinked by someone claiming to know what they're doing more than you do..  Most management don't know that, and HR departments certainly don't..</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171954</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31176238</id>
	<title>Re:Cheaper young 'uns will work longer hours?</title>
	<author>swordgeek</author>
	<datestamp>1265019660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My observations haven't been tied directly to hours worked, as much as styles of dedication.</p><p>A new kid may stay late on a supercool project, and burn for weeks on it. However, it's the coolness (or lack thereof) that determines how they work.</p><p>Older folks will generally work hard on the project they're working on, whatever it may be, but go home at a normal hour. On the other hand, if there is a real deadline driving a project, they'll likely burn hard to get it done. (Assuming the deadline is at least rational, of course.)</p><p>It's about ownership and professionalism, things which tend to grow over time as fatigue and "the real world' set in to veteran staff.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My observations have n't been tied directly to hours worked , as much as styles of dedication.A new kid may stay late on a supercool project , and burn for weeks on it .
However , it 's the coolness ( or lack thereof ) that determines how they work.Older folks will generally work hard on the project they 're working on , whatever it may be , but go home at a normal hour .
On the other hand , if there is a real deadline driving a project , they 'll likely burn hard to get it done .
( Assuming the deadline is at least rational , of course .
) It 's about ownership and professionalism , things which tend to grow over time as fatigue and " the real world ' set in to veteran staff .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My observations haven't been tied directly to hours worked, as much as styles of dedication.A new kid may stay late on a supercool project, and burn for weeks on it.
However, it's the coolness (or lack thereof) that determines how they work.Older folks will generally work hard on the project they're working on, whatever it may be, but go home at a normal hour.
On the other hand, if there is a real deadline driving a project, they'll likely burn hard to get it done.
(Assuming the deadline is at least rational, of course.
)It's about ownership and professionalism, things which tend to grow over time as fatigue and "the real world' set in to veteran staff.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173626</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31175222</id>
	<title>Re:Not so simple</title>
	<author>MikeySquid</author>
	<datestamp>1265016240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Simpler than you think.</p><p>Those other older programmers who didn't get promoted to management are the biggest threat to the security of the ones who did.<br>It's much better for the new managers to have a slew of 20 somethings around who don't really know how the world works yet than a few older jockeys who could take his place fairly easily. The new managers damn well know the value of those other older programmers and that's why they get replaced.</p><p>It's very simple.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Simpler than you think.Those other older programmers who did n't get promoted to management are the biggest threat to the security of the ones who did.It 's much better for the new managers to have a slew of 20 somethings around who do n't really know how the world works yet than a few older jockeys who could take his place fairly easily .
The new managers damn well know the value of those other older programmers and that 's why they get replaced.It 's very simple .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Simpler than you think.Those other older programmers who didn't get promoted to management are the biggest threat to the security of the ones who did.It's much better for the new managers to have a slew of 20 somethings around who don't really know how the world works yet than a few older jockeys who could take his place fairly easily.
The new managers damn well know the value of those other older programmers and that's why they get replaced.It's very simple.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171934</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172564</id>
	<title>Ummmmmm, completely incorrect</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265050680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Companies are hiring people that haven't learned anything new in 20 years because of their "experience" given that they're willing to work for the same price offered to anybody else.  Assuming the work hasn't already been sent to India/China/Russia it's all about cost because hiring managers know that they don't know how to figure out which applicant is better and they simply lean towards "experience" because they've always thought that meant something in their career paths plus it simply means older and frankly more controllable if they may have families and therefore are less likely to pick up and force them to restart again.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Companies are hiring people that have n't learned anything new in 20 years because of their " experience " given that they 're willing to work for the same price offered to anybody else .
Assuming the work has n't already been sent to India/China/Russia it 's all about cost because hiring managers know that they do n't know how to figure out which applicant is better and they simply lean towards " experience " because they 've always thought that meant something in their career paths plus it simply means older and frankly more controllable if they may have families and therefore are less likely to pick up and force them to restart again .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Companies are hiring people that haven't learned anything new in 20 years because of their "experience" given that they're willing to work for the same price offered to anybody else.
Assuming the work hasn't already been sent to India/China/Russia it's all about cost because hiring managers know that they don't know how to figure out which applicant is better and they simply lean towards "experience" because they've always thought that meant something in their career paths plus it simply means older and frankly more controllable if they may have families and therefore are less likely to pick up and force them to restart again.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173818</id>
	<title>Re:No, it is not age discrimination...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265054640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem with your theory is that if it were true the companies would first make their low-ball offer to the developer with the most experience hoping to get a bargain, but in practice this doesn't happen.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem with your theory is that if it were true the companies would first make their low-ball offer to the developer with the most experience hoping to get a bargain , but in practice this does n't happen .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem with your theory is that if it were true the companies would first make their low-ball offer to the developer with the most experience hoping to get a bargain, but in practice this doesn't happen.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172624</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31174484</id>
	<title>Anonymous Coward</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265056920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In my opinion, experience counts for more than anything else in software development. I am a 42 year old developer who has been programming profesionally since I was 18. I think it was at least 10 years before I would have called myself a true professional developer. Younger guys often have tremendous talent, but not the insight that the additional years add, not to mention the lessons learned. Almost all the newer platforms are simply iterations or maturations of existing development languages and platforms, having the experience lends itself to much quicker consumption of an environment and project.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In my opinion , experience counts for more than anything else in software development .
I am a 42 year old developer who has been programming profesionally since I was 18 .
I think it was at least 10 years before I would have called myself a true professional developer .
Younger guys often have tremendous talent , but not the insight that the additional years add , not to mention the lessons learned .
Almost all the newer platforms are simply iterations or maturations of existing development languages and platforms , having the experience lends itself to much quicker consumption of an environment and project .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In my opinion, experience counts for more than anything else in software development.
I am a 42 year old developer who has been programming profesionally since I was 18.
I think it was at least 10 years before I would have called myself a true professional developer.
Younger guys often have tremendous talent, but not the insight that the additional years add, not to mention the lessons learned.
Almost all the newer platforms are simply iterations or maturations of existing development languages and platforms, having the experience lends itself to much quicker consumption of an environment and project.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31176938</id>
	<title>Re:Obivous Answer</title>
	<author>elnyka</author>
	<datestamp>1265022420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>What about motivation? People tend to write more lines of code if they are motivated. I've written most of my lines of code driven by motivation of their usefulness rather than my age.


Although, at my age, I rather write more lines of code that do stuff for me quicker. Maybe I've become lazy AND old.</p></div><p>Motivation != efficiency (or even knowing how to program <b>well</b>).</p><p>

Lines of Code != good indicator of programming productivity, experience or efficiency.</p><p>

I've known a lot of motivated programmers, motivated for sure, but ones I wouldn't trust anything beyond maintaining JSP pages. Motivation by itself doesn't mean much, not unless it is accompanied by hard-earned elbow-grease and experience (or when inexperienced, at least a firm knowledge in programming principles, a sharp mind, and good intuition about complex problem solving.)</p><p>

Might be wrong, but that's what I see as a good indicator for desirable programming attributes. Not motivation alone. Certainly not rate of production of lines of code.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>What about motivation ?
People tend to write more lines of code if they are motivated .
I 've written most of my lines of code driven by motivation of their usefulness rather than my age .
Although , at my age , I rather write more lines of code that do stuff for me quicker .
Maybe I 've become lazy AND old.Motivation ! = efficiency ( or even knowing how to program well ) .
Lines of Code ! = good indicator of programming productivity , experience or efficiency .
I 've known a lot of motivated programmers , motivated for sure , but ones I would n't trust anything beyond maintaining JSP pages .
Motivation by itself does n't mean much , not unless it is accompanied by hard-earned elbow-grease and experience ( or when inexperienced , at least a firm knowledge in programming principles , a sharp mind , and good intuition about complex problem solving .
) Might be wrong , but that 's what I see as a good indicator for desirable programming attributes .
Not motivation alone .
Certainly not rate of production of lines of code .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What about motivation?
People tend to write more lines of code if they are motivated.
I've written most of my lines of code driven by motivation of their usefulness rather than my age.
Although, at my age, I rather write more lines of code that do stuff for me quicker.
Maybe I've become lazy AND old.Motivation != efficiency (or even knowing how to program well).
Lines of Code != good indicator of programming productivity, experience or efficiency.
I've known a lot of motivated programmers, motivated for sure, but ones I wouldn't trust anything beyond maintaining JSP pages.
Motivation by itself doesn't mean much, not unless it is accompanied by hard-earned elbow-grease and experience (or when inexperienced, at least a firm knowledge in programming principles, a sharp mind, and good intuition about complex problem solving.
)

Might be wrong, but that's what I see as a good indicator for desirable programming attributes.
Not motivation alone.
Certainly not rate of production of lines of code.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172256</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171934</id>
	<title>Not so simple</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265048700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Not all programmers get promoted. It's a pyramid scheme. Most will get dumped to find work elsewhere, losing seniority in the process and quite possibly having to find work in a different field.</p><p>Upper management/nonprogrammers haven't a clue about the valuable experience the older programmers have. Management follows the younger programmers as they tilt at windmills.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Not all programmers get promoted .
It 's a pyramid scheme .
Most will get dumped to find work elsewhere , losing seniority in the process and quite possibly having to find work in a different field.Upper management/nonprogrammers have n't a clue about the valuable experience the older programmers have .
Management follows the younger programmers as they tilt at windmills .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not all programmers get promoted.
It's a pyramid scheme.
Most will get dumped to find work elsewhere, losing seniority in the process and quite possibly having to find work in a different field.Upper management/nonprogrammers haven't a clue about the valuable experience the older programmers have.
Management follows the younger programmers as they tilt at windmills.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171678</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172392</id>
	<title>From an older worker</title>
	<author>strangeattraction</author>
	<datestamp>1265050140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>How are any of these generalizations any different than any other industry? There is age discrimination by some in both directions. Older workers simply take tired old ideas and repackaged them as something new. Younger workers think their ideas are actually new and expend a lot of effort reinventing things they are not old enough to know already existed. The cycle is nearly complete. Cloud computing is a repackaged version of centralized mainframe computing. Actual advances in industry are much more gradual than people like to believe.</htmltext>
<tokenext>How are any of these generalizations any different than any other industry ?
There is age discrimination by some in both directions .
Older workers simply take tired old ideas and repackaged them as something new .
Younger workers think their ideas are actually new and expend a lot of effort reinventing things they are not old enough to know already existed .
The cycle is nearly complete .
Cloud computing is a repackaged version of centralized mainframe computing .
Actual advances in industry are much more gradual than people like to believe .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How are any of these generalizations any different than any other industry?
There is age discrimination by some in both directions.
Older workers simply take tired old ideas and repackaged them as something new.
Younger workers think their ideas are actually new and expend a lot of effort reinventing things they are not old enough to know already existed.
The cycle is nearly complete.
Cloud computing is a repackaged version of centralized mainframe computing.
Actual advances in industry are much more gradual than people like to believe.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31174162</id>
	<title>I'm 54...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265055780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...and I am always amused by the youngsters who think they know more than their elders.  It's particularly bad with Gen-X, which seems to have grown up with a chip on the shoulder that "people in the Boomer and WWII generations are all stupid, and everything they did is crap."</p><p>Yet, now that Gen-X is hitting 40, it doesn't seem to be such a good idea to be smart-ass contemptuous any more.</p><p>The problem with assuming that Boomers don't know anything about OOP is that they are the generation that invented OOP.  There's also a lot that they know that Gen-X never learned.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...and I am always amused by the youngsters who think they know more than their elders .
It 's particularly bad with Gen-X , which seems to have grown up with a chip on the shoulder that " people in the Boomer and WWII generations are all stupid , and everything they did is crap .
" Yet , now that Gen-X is hitting 40 , it does n't seem to be such a good idea to be smart-ass contemptuous any more.The problem with assuming that Boomers do n't know anything about OOP is that they are the generation that invented OOP .
There 's also a lot that they know that Gen-X never learned .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...and I am always amused by the youngsters who think they know more than their elders.
It's particularly bad with Gen-X, which seems to have grown up with a chip on the shoulder that "people in the Boomer and WWII generations are all stupid, and everything they did is crap.
"Yet, now that Gen-X is hitting 40, it doesn't seem to be such a good idea to be smart-ass contemptuous any more.The problem with assuming that Boomers don't know anything about OOP is that they are the generation that invented OOP.
There's also a lot that they know that Gen-X never learned.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31177144</id>
	<title>Re:Cheaper young 'uns will work longer hours?</title>
	<author>walterbyrd</author>
	<datestamp>1265023320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>About two years ago, I worked on IT team where everybody was over 45, except one guy who was 26. If the 26 year old came in 30 minutes late, it was practically like he was early, Two hours to four late was more typical. We were all amused by his daily excuses, like "my roommate's cat was sick."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>About two years ago , I worked on IT team where everybody was over 45 , except one guy who was 26 .
If the 26 year old came in 30 minutes late , it was practically like he was early , Two hours to four late was more typical .
We were all amused by his daily excuses , like " my roommate 's cat was sick .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>About two years ago, I worked on IT team where everybody was over 45, except one guy who was 26.
If the 26 year old came in 30 minutes late, it was practically like he was early, Two hours to four late was more typical.
We were all amused by his daily excuses, like "my roommate's cat was sick.
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173626</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31174936</id>
	<title>Re:Complete bullshit</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265015280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Not to mention the difficulty of getting a job that pays enough to live on coming out of college.  Everyone assumes they are doing you a favor, so you should be happy to work for those peanuts they are throwing you.  Without savings or access to unemployment and the looming debts behind you, you end up grabbing whatever crap job you can find and praying you can stick with it long enough to have a resume that won't go straight into the trash.  Of course you work 16 hours a day if needed; what alternative do you have?</p><p>Not to mention having to deal with all these old people convinced you are stealing their jobs, refusing to acknowledge the skills you do have even when you acknowledge those you don't (remember, "kids these days" might well have been programming for 10 years by the time they graduate from college) and expecting that you will happily adopt whatever counter-productive habits they consider gospel.</p><p>If I had a penny for I've disagreed with something and asked for the reasons behind the decision and get told instead, "I've worked in industry for 20 years!" or "I knew Alan Kay!" I wouldn't need to be a code monkey anymore.  Instead, I paid my dues, and now get paid twice as much to do the same things I was doing then.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Not to mention the difficulty of getting a job that pays enough to live on coming out of college .
Everyone assumes they are doing you a favor , so you should be happy to work for those peanuts they are throwing you .
Without savings or access to unemployment and the looming debts behind you , you end up grabbing whatever crap job you can find and praying you can stick with it long enough to have a resume that wo n't go straight into the trash .
Of course you work 16 hours a day if needed ; what alternative do you have ? Not to mention having to deal with all these old people convinced you are stealing their jobs , refusing to acknowledge the skills you do have even when you acknowledge those you do n't ( remember , " kids these days " might well have been programming for 10 years by the time they graduate from college ) and expecting that you will happily adopt whatever counter-productive habits they consider gospel.If I had a penny for I 've disagreed with something and asked for the reasons behind the decision and get told instead , " I 've worked in industry for 20 years !
" or " I knew Alan Kay !
" I would n't need to be a code monkey anymore .
Instead , I paid my dues , and now get paid twice as much to do the same things I was doing then .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not to mention the difficulty of getting a job that pays enough to live on coming out of college.
Everyone assumes they are doing you a favor, so you should be happy to work for those peanuts they are throwing you.
Without savings or access to unemployment and the looming debts behind you, you end up grabbing whatever crap job you can find and praying you can stick with it long enough to have a resume that won't go straight into the trash.
Of course you work 16 hours a day if needed; what alternative do you have?Not to mention having to deal with all these old people convinced you are stealing their jobs, refusing to acknowledge the skills you do have even when you acknowledge those you don't (remember, "kids these days" might well have been programming for 10 years by the time they graduate from college) and expecting that you will happily adopt whatever counter-productive habits they consider gospel.If I had a penny for I've disagreed with something and asked for the reasons behind the decision and get told instead, "I've worked in industry for 20 years!
" or "I knew Alan Kay!
" I wouldn't need to be a code monkey anymore.
Instead, I paid my dues, and now get paid twice as much to do the same things I was doing then.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172058</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173128</id>
	<title>Re:Oh crap!</title>
	<author>gestalt\_n\_pepper</author>
	<datestamp>1265052300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No, that's just your cell phone. Now answer the damn thing!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No , that 's just your cell phone .
Now answer the damn thing !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, that's just your cell phone.
Now answer the damn thing!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172582</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172812</id>
	<title>Re:A question for all you experienced types out th</title>
	<author>SpinyNorman</author>
	<datestamp>1265051280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>For hobby use, with no particular application in mind, I'd suggest learning Python. If you enjoy that and want to get more serious about programming, then learn Java, C# or C++. If you have in mind WHAT you'd like to program, then different advice may apply.</p><p>Python is well designed and scales up reasonably well (unlike, say, Perl, which does neither). It's more fun to start with an interpreted language due to the instant feedback you get.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>For hobby use , with no particular application in mind , I 'd suggest learning Python .
If you enjoy that and want to get more serious about programming , then learn Java , C # or C + + .
If you have in mind WHAT you 'd like to program , then different advice may apply.Python is well designed and scales up reasonably well ( unlike , say , Perl , which does neither ) .
It 's more fun to start with an interpreted language due to the instant feedback you get .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For hobby use, with no particular application in mind, I'd suggest learning Python.
If you enjoy that and want to get more serious about programming, then learn Java, C# or C++.
If you have in mind WHAT you'd like to program, then different advice may apply.Python is well designed and scales up reasonably well (unlike, say, Perl, which does neither).
It's more fun to start with an interpreted language due to the instant feedback you get.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172432</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31177832</id>
	<title>Re:A question for all you experienced types out th</title>
	<author>gringer</author>
	<datestamp>1265025900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>FWIW, HTML isn't a programming language, it's not a good idea to mention it as your only programming skill.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>FWIW , HTML is n't a programming language , it 's not a good idea to mention it as your only programming skill .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>FWIW, HTML isn't a programming language, it's not a good idea to mention it as your only programming skill.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172432</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31179262</id>
	<title>"logan's run"?</title>
	<author>circletimessquare</author>
	<datestamp>1265035980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>i didn't know what that was, so i looked it up</p><p>its apparently a novel from 1967, or a movie from 1976</p><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan's\_Run" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan's\_Run</a> [wikipedia.org]</p><p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan's\_Run\_(film)" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan's\_Run\_(film)</a> [wikipedia.org]</p><p>meaning, the story title itself is an age test</p><p>having failed that test, i feel secure in my youngun status</p><p>meanwhile, if you knew what "logan's run" was off the top of your head, join aarp and get on with it<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;-P</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>i did n't know what that was , so i looked it upits apparently a novel from 1967 , or a movie from 1976http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan 's \ _Run [ wikipedia.org ] http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan 's \ _Run \ _ ( film ) [ wikipedia.org ] meaning , the story title itself is an age testhaving failed that test , i feel secure in my youngun statusmeanwhile , if you knew what " logan 's run " was off the top of your head , join aarp and get on with it ; -P</tokentext>
<sentencetext>i didn't know what that was, so i looked it upits apparently a novel from 1967, or a movie from 1976http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan's\_Run [wikipedia.org]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan's\_Run\_(film) [wikipedia.org]meaning, the story title itself is an age testhaving failed that test, i feel secure in my youngun statusmeanwhile, if you knew what "logan's run" was off the top of your head, join aarp and get on with it ;-P</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31174014</id>
	<title>You dorks are too young to remember Logan's Run</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265055300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>No carousel jokes?  No runner jokes?  Besides, it's 30 in Logan's Run.

None of you fools mention being burned out either...HELLO!?!?!?!</htmltext>
<tokenext>No carousel jokes ?
No runner jokes ?
Besides , it 's 30 in Logan 's Run .
None of you fools mention being burned out either...HELLO ! ? ! ? ! ?
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No carousel jokes?
No runner jokes?
Besides, it's 30 in Logan's Run.
None of you fools mention being burned out either...HELLO!?!?!?
!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31178872</id>
	<title>Re:Kids Today</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265032620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hey... you hitting a little below the belt for some of us.  Cause that's not too far from the truth.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hey... you hitting a little below the belt for some of us .
Cause that 's not too far from the truth .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hey... you hitting a little below the belt for some of us.
Cause that's not too far from the truth.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171952</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172228</id>
	<title>Mainframe/COBOL Pigeon Hole</title>
	<author>Ohio Calvinist</author>
	<datestamp>1265049600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>While an anecdote, at 2 places I have worked, there is a perception (I can't say if it is true or not) that older (particularly mainframe) programmers are unable or unwilling to transfer their skills to the client/server or web platforms, and that they are unwilling or unable to learn newer languages/design patterns.

Again, I can't say in a generalizable way if this is more-or-less "true" or not, but I think the perception is harmful to the older class of workers whose technology is being phased out in a lot of enterprises (and industry sectors.) For some programmers, there is also a tendency to "self-select" for specialization based on a particular tool chain or language preference. I know I could be a Java programmer, but I am so unfamiliar with the API that I'd be fairly ineffective until I got up to speed. I don't think many workplaces tend to frequently lower performance goals for this sort of learning curve making programmers avoid developing a broad skill set and focus narrowly. IT also tends to differentiate between web programmers, mainframe gurus, DBAs, server managers, etc. causing a further territoriality and specialization.

I would also argue that the rapid pace of obsolescence makes programmers particularly vulnerable to this perception (or reality). In industries where the skill set is more static, or there are minor incremental changes or a large number of legacy installations (such as in HVAC repair or general construction) there is less of a degree of specialization and rapid skill set changes.</htmltext>
<tokenext>While an anecdote , at 2 places I have worked , there is a perception ( I ca n't say if it is true or not ) that older ( particularly mainframe ) programmers are unable or unwilling to transfer their skills to the client/server or web platforms , and that they are unwilling or unable to learn newer languages/design patterns .
Again , I ca n't say in a generalizable way if this is more-or-less " true " or not , but I think the perception is harmful to the older class of workers whose technology is being phased out in a lot of enterprises ( and industry sectors .
) For some programmers , there is also a tendency to " self-select " for specialization based on a particular tool chain or language preference .
I know I could be a Java programmer , but I am so unfamiliar with the API that I 'd be fairly ineffective until I got up to speed .
I do n't think many workplaces tend to frequently lower performance goals for this sort of learning curve making programmers avoid developing a broad skill set and focus narrowly .
IT also tends to differentiate between web programmers , mainframe gurus , DBAs , server managers , etc .
causing a further territoriality and specialization .
I would also argue that the rapid pace of obsolescence makes programmers particularly vulnerable to this perception ( or reality ) .
In industries where the skill set is more static , or there are minor incremental changes or a large number of legacy installations ( such as in HVAC repair or general construction ) there is less of a degree of specialization and rapid skill set changes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While an anecdote, at 2 places I have worked, there is a perception (I can't say if it is true or not) that older (particularly mainframe) programmers are unable or unwilling to transfer their skills to the client/server or web platforms, and that they are unwilling or unable to learn newer languages/design patterns.
Again, I can't say in a generalizable way if this is more-or-less "true" or not, but I think the perception is harmful to the older class of workers whose technology is being phased out in a lot of enterprises (and industry sectors.
) For some programmers, there is also a tendency to "self-select" for specialization based on a particular tool chain or language preference.
I know I could be a Java programmer, but I am so unfamiliar with the API that I'd be fairly ineffective until I got up to speed.
I don't think many workplaces tend to frequently lower performance goals for this sort of learning curve making programmers avoid developing a broad skill set and focus narrowly.
IT also tends to differentiate between web programmers, mainframe gurus, DBAs, server managers, etc.
causing a further territoriality and specialization.
I would also argue that the rapid pace of obsolescence makes programmers particularly vulnerable to this perception (or reality).
In industries where the skill set is more static, or there are minor incremental changes or a large number of legacy installations (such as in HVAC repair or general construction) there is less of a degree of specialization and rapid skill set changes.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31175750</id>
	<title>Re:jaded</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265017920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"a lot" is two words.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" a lot " is two words .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"a lot" is two words.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171880</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172900</id>
	<title>Re:Experience</title>
	<author>emurphy42</author>
	<datestamp>1265051520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
Old joke:  Plumber charges $100, spends 5 minutes tapping at pipes, problem fixed.  Customer demands itemized bill.  Plumber provides the following:
</p><ul>
<li> $5 for tapping at pipes </li><li> $95 for knowing <em>where</em> to tap </li></ul><p>
This is so very, very true of my work as well, only instead of pipes I work with, er, tubes.
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Old joke : Plumber charges $ 100 , spends 5 minutes tapping at pipes , problem fixed .
Customer demands itemized bill .
Plumber provides the following : $ 5 for tapping at pipes $ 95 for knowing where to tap This is so very , very true of my work as well , only instead of pipes I work with , er , tubes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
Old joke:  Plumber charges $100, spends 5 minutes tapping at pipes, problem fixed.
Customer demands itemized bill.
Plumber provides the following:

 $5 for tapping at pipes  $95 for knowing where to tap 
This is so very, very true of my work as well, only instead of pipes I work with, er, tubes.
</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171954</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172492</id>
	<title>Re:Kids Today</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265050440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>...Why, when I was your age, we had to chisel bluestone megaliths using only hand tools, and then haul those four-ton stones into a circular pattern, just to calculate date()<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...!</p></div><p>So your responsible for the Y2KBC problem!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>...Why , when I was your age , we had to chisel bluestone megaliths using only hand tools , and then haul those four-ton stones into a circular pattern , just to calculate date ( ) ... ! So your responsible for the Y2KBC problem !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...Why, when I was your age, we had to chisel bluestone megaliths using only hand tools, and then haul those four-ton stones into a circular pattern, just to calculate date() ...!So your responsible for the Y2KBC problem!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171952</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31176850</id>
	<title>Re:Age Test</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265022060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>mmmm<br>Love that cute little nose!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>mmmmLove that cute little nose !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>mmmmLove that cute little nose!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172116</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31179156</id>
	<title>Re:Obivous Answer</title>
	<author>LukeWebber</author>
	<datestamp>1265035200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What if you're a 53YO programmer who doesn't <i>want</i> to be an architect or designer. (Hint: That would be me)<br>I don't mind doing some design work, requirements gathering, and what-not. But the code speaks to me, and I can't ignore its siren song.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What if you 're a 53YO programmer who does n't want to be an architect or designer .
( Hint : That would be me ) I do n't mind doing some design work , requirements gathering , and what-not .
But the code speaks to me , and I ca n't ignore its siren song .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What if you're a 53YO programmer who doesn't want to be an architect or designer.
(Hint: That would be me)I don't mind doing some design work, requirements gathering, and what-not.
But the code speaks to me, and I can't ignore its siren song.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31174146</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172222</id>
	<title>Re:I don't think experience is always better in CS</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265049600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hmmm. Most of the trendy new languages seem to be non-typesafe. I think you are showing your age.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hmmm .
Most of the trendy new languages seem to be non-typesafe .
I think you are showing your age .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hmmm.
Most of the trendy new languages seem to be non-typesafe.
I think you are showing your age.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171964</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171872</id>
	<title>All the more reason to get out of IT</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265048520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I graduated with a degree in CS and working in IT for 7 days.  It didn't take long to see the handwriting on the wall.  Left and went back to school for pharmacy.  A few years later and I can get hired on anywhere in an instant.</p><p>IT is a dead-end.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I graduated with a degree in CS and working in IT for 7 days .
It did n't take long to see the handwriting on the wall .
Left and went back to school for pharmacy .
A few years later and I can get hired on anywhere in an instant.IT is a dead-end .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I graduated with a degree in CS and working in IT for 7 days.
It didn't take long to see the handwriting on the wall.
Left and went back to school for pharmacy.
A few years later and I can get hired on anywhere in an instant.IT is a dead-end.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31177400</id>
	<title>I think it has more to do with the us healthcare s</title>
	<author>Joe The Dragon</author>
	<datestamp>1265024460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think it has more to do with the us health care system then other stuff as older people need more health care and they can just get people who are not as old how cost less and as plus they can also trick them in to working logner as alot of young people do not know about the labor laws.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think it has more to do with the us health care system then other stuff as older people need more health care and they can just get people who are not as old how cost less and as plus they can also trick them in to working logner as alot of young people do not know about the labor laws .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think it has more to do with the us health care system then other stuff as older people need more health care and they can just get people who are not as old how cost less and as plus they can also trick them in to working logner as alot of young people do not know about the labor laws.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31174374</id>
	<title>Re:Kids Today</title>
	<author>mcgrew</author>
	<datestamp>1265056500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah, and you <a href="http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/4/2/163821/5617" title="kuro5hin.org">geezers</a> [kuro5hin.org] were too short sighted and cheap to carry your date values in more than one byte, and the Y1K problem wiped out your civilization! Way to go, grandpa.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , and you geezers [ kuro5hin.org ] were too short sighted and cheap to carry your date values in more than one byte , and the Y1K problem wiped out your civilization !
Way to go , grandpa .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, and you geezers [kuro5hin.org] were too short sighted and cheap to carry your date values in more than one byte, and the Y1K problem wiped out your civilization!
Way to go, grandpa.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171952</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173780</id>
	<title>Re:Kids Today</title>
	<author>kindbud</author>
	<datestamp>1265054520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Chisels?!  Lucky!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Chisels ? !
Lucky !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Chisels?!
Lucky!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171952</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172694</id>
	<title>The Pretender</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265050980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, I had to get into management because of this. And here, I find that most of management have absolutely no clue of reasons behind what they do. They simply ape what they see people doing that seem to know what they are doing. And most programmers I have seen lately are also apeing and making noises like something they saw on youtube or found on google. All the buzzwords and none of the ability.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , I had to get into management because of this .
And here , I find that most of management have absolutely no clue of reasons behind what they do .
They simply ape what they see people doing that seem to know what they are doing .
And most programmers I have seen lately are also apeing and making noises like something they saw on youtube or found on google .
All the buzzwords and none of the ability .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, I had to get into management because of this.
And here, I find that most of management have absolutely no clue of reasons behind what they do.
They simply ape what they see people doing that seem to know what they are doing.
And most programmers I have seen lately are also apeing and making noises like something they saw on youtube or found on google.
All the buzzwords and none of the ability.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31175964</id>
	<title>Re:Obivous Answer</title>
	<author>selven</author>
	<datestamp>1265018640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Per program? You don't have just a single program which does everything you might need with a massive chain of ternary operators?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Per program ?
You do n't have just a single program which does everything you might need with a massive chain of ternary operators ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Per program?
You don't have just a single program which does everything you might need with a massive chain of ternary operators?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173706</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31175818</id>
	<title>Toronto report</title>
	<author>The Abused Developer</author>
	<datestamp>1265018160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This is the norm here; the typical requirement for a developer is to be as much as required horizontally skilled - this meaning even if you are hired as a j2ee developer you will have do to database programming normally you would expect to be done by a dba or etl guy, plus
browser java script you would expect to be done by a browser guru. Also, you must expect everything to come onto your plate and you have to take it - can be even tasks you never dreamed you will have to do like windows drivers, linux api etc. - you must take it and shut up otherwise you go out. This is expected and of course, if you are not anymore a fresh one at the beginning of the career and you are already at the point where other commitments have their pressure on you - you are done. As experienced programmer your experience counts only in very vertical niches
where there is no coverage or you have the connections to enter and not get smashed  with assignments nobody ever mentioned you would have to expect for that position. I talked to friends in US and UK and it looks things are a little bit lighter there - of course, age is a discriminating factor,
but an expected unlimited horizontal skills base required in the job chores is something they haven't encountered. The simple explanation is that, for the companies to achieve their maximized goals the single way they can do it is by abusing their developers - so, the current economical backslash is open season for them to introduce into their sweatshop lines only the slaves which can make it; exactly as on plantations or galley - you need only fully dependable, *enslavable* resources.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is the norm here ; the typical requirement for a developer is to be as much as required horizontally skilled - this meaning even if you are hired as a j2ee developer you will have do to database programming normally you would expect to be done by a dba or etl guy , plus browser java script you would expect to be done by a browser guru .
Also , you must expect everything to come onto your plate and you have to take it - can be even tasks you never dreamed you will have to do like windows drivers , linux api etc .
- you must take it and shut up otherwise you go out .
This is expected and of course , if you are not anymore a fresh one at the beginning of the career and you are already at the point where other commitments have their pressure on you - you are done .
As experienced programmer your experience counts only in very vertical niches where there is no coverage or you have the connections to enter and not get smashed with assignments nobody ever mentioned you would have to expect for that position .
I talked to friends in US and UK and it looks things are a little bit lighter there - of course , age is a discriminating factor , but an expected unlimited horizontal skills base required in the job chores is something they have n't encountered .
The simple explanation is that , for the companies to achieve their maximized goals the single way they can do it is by abusing their developers - so , the current economical backslash is open season for them to introduce into their sweatshop lines only the slaves which can make it ; exactly as on plantations or galley - you need only fully dependable , * enslavable * resources .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is the norm here; the typical requirement for a developer is to be as much as required horizontally skilled - this meaning even if you are hired as a j2ee developer you will have do to database programming normally you would expect to be done by a dba or etl guy, plus
browser java script you would expect to be done by a browser guru.
Also, you must expect everything to come onto your plate and you have to take it - can be even tasks you never dreamed you will have to do like windows drivers, linux api etc.
- you must take it and shut up otherwise you go out.
This is expected and of course, if you are not anymore a fresh one at the beginning of the career and you are already at the point where other commitments have their pressure on you - you are done.
As experienced programmer your experience counts only in very vertical niches
where there is no coverage or you have the connections to enter and not get smashed  with assignments nobody ever mentioned you would have to expect for that position.
I talked to friends in US and UK and it looks things are a little bit lighter there - of course, age is a discriminating factor,
but an expected unlimited horizontal skills base required in the job chores is something they haven't encountered.
The simple explanation is that, for the companies to achieve their maximized goals the single way they can do it is by abusing their developers - so, the current economical backslash is open season for them to introduce into their sweatshop lines only the slaves which can make it; exactly as on plantations or galley - you need only fully dependable, *enslavable* resources.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172088</id>
	<title>Re:It is age discrimination</title>
	<author>alan\_dershowitz</author>
	<datestamp>1265049180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If this were a thread about H1B, people would be screaming about how Americans won't work AT THAT PRICE POINT. Devil's advocate, why won't older workers work at that price point? One place I've worked at hired a number of older workers who had made career changes late in life, and came in older but not really experienced. If I looked at our hiring practices it was obvious that they were trying to get a diverse workforce (nothing inherently wrong with that) so it would be really hard to say that we were being discriminatory.</p><p>It seems like in a bad economy the \_very\_ experienced software designers and architects (often older) get screwed because nobody wants to pay that much and are cutting back on the really far reaching products that need that level of talent. That's where I think we are right now.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If this were a thread about H1B , people would be screaming about how Americans wo n't work AT THAT PRICE POINT .
Devil 's advocate , why wo n't older workers work at that price point ?
One place I 've worked at hired a number of older workers who had made career changes late in life , and came in older but not really experienced .
If I looked at our hiring practices it was obvious that they were trying to get a diverse workforce ( nothing inherently wrong with that ) so it would be really hard to say that we were being discriminatory.It seems like in a bad economy the \ _very \ _ experienced software designers and architects ( often older ) get screwed because nobody wants to pay that much and are cutting back on the really far reaching products that need that level of talent .
That 's where I think we are right now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If this were a thread about H1B, people would be screaming about how Americans won't work AT THAT PRICE POINT.
Devil's advocate, why won't older workers work at that price point?
One place I've worked at hired a number of older workers who had made career changes late in life, and came in older but not really experienced.
If I looked at our hiring practices it was obvious that they were trying to get a diverse workforce (nothing inherently wrong with that) so it would be really hard to say that we were being discriminatory.It seems like in a bad economy the \_very\_ experienced software designers and architects (often older) get screwed because nobody wants to pay that much and are cutting back on the really far reaching products that need that level of talent.
That's where I think we are right now.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171842</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173462</id>
	<title>Re:It is age discrimination</title>
	<author>rve</author>
	<datestamp>1265053440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The summary says that it's not merely age discrimination, then goes on to say that they hire younger workers because they are cheaper, without bothering to account for experience.</p></div><p>I think the whole point is that what counts is experience in a certain technology that will be used in a project, say<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.NET. The 45 and the 25 year old programmer will both have a maximum of maybe 7 years of experience in it. The 20 years of Delphi and dBase experience the 45 year old programmer has in addition is about as relevant to the project as his 25 years of experience in driving a motor cycle, but it does double the hourly wage he's asking.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The summary says that it 's not merely age discrimination , then goes on to say that they hire younger workers because they are cheaper , without bothering to account for experience.I think the whole point is that what counts is experience in a certain technology that will be used in a project , say .NET .
The 45 and the 25 year old programmer will both have a maximum of maybe 7 years of experience in it .
The 20 years of Delphi and dBase experience the 45 year old programmer has in addition is about as relevant to the project as his 25 years of experience in driving a motor cycle , but it does double the hourly wage he 's asking .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The summary says that it's not merely age discrimination, then goes on to say that they hire younger workers because they are cheaper, without bothering to account for experience.I think the whole point is that what counts is experience in a certain technology that will be used in a project, say .NET.
The 45 and the 25 year old programmer will both have a maximum of maybe 7 years of experience in it.
The 20 years of Delphi and dBase experience the 45 year old programmer has in addition is about as relevant to the project as his 25 years of experience in driving a motor cycle, but it does double the hourly wage he's asking.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171842</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172808</id>
	<title>My tolerance for BS has dropped as I've aged</title>
	<author>opentunings</author>
	<datestamp>1265051280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I spent 13 years working in development.  I survived matrix management, interchangeable plastic people, managers who couldn't prioritize work, managers who couldn't understand the purpose of a Gantt chart, senseless incentive plans and other IT management disasters.  At 45 (a little late, I guess) I realized that I was simply sick of the BS that comes with being a drone in IT.  13 years ago I was offered a job in 3rd-level tech support (production DBA, in the trenches every day), and took it.<p>
The politics is much lower on the production support side, which gets you out of most of the BS.  No requirements drift, fewer communications problems, no crunch-to-meet-the-deadline, etc.  So the move's been good for me.</p><p>
But I've also noticed that <strong>my tolerance for BS in every area of my life has dropped as I've aged.</strong>  Like the time when a grocery clerk had some apples and a box of cereal on the weigh station while she was weighing the apples.  I pointed out to her that she was weighing the cereal at the same time as the apples and the weight / price would be wrong.  "No," she indicated, "the scanner will read the cereal and get the price right."  After a couple of minutes a manager came over, removed the cereal and weighed the apples.  I left before she explained the issue to the clerk, who was still wondering how the apples dropped by a pound.</p><p>
It's become quite a struggle, as I grow older, not to stand up and shout whenever someone makes a decision solely for political reasons, or when they don't understand the value of training employees of <strong>any</strong> age bracket, or when I work for someone who's incapable of making a decision.  In my younger days it was easier simply to ignore it, but now in my late-50's it's sometimes quite an effort to ignore the BS that comes my way.</p><p>
People talk about how you should "pick your battles."  Walking away from the BS, on my terms, was my way to pick my battles.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I spent 13 years working in development .
I survived matrix management , interchangeable plastic people , managers who could n't prioritize work , managers who could n't understand the purpose of a Gantt chart , senseless incentive plans and other IT management disasters .
At 45 ( a little late , I guess ) I realized that I was simply sick of the BS that comes with being a drone in IT .
13 years ago I was offered a job in 3rd-level tech support ( production DBA , in the trenches every day ) , and took it .
The politics is much lower on the production support side , which gets you out of most of the BS .
No requirements drift , fewer communications problems , no crunch-to-meet-the-deadline , etc .
So the move 's been good for me .
But I 've also noticed that my tolerance for BS in every area of my life has dropped as I 've aged .
Like the time when a grocery clerk had some apples and a box of cereal on the weigh station while she was weighing the apples .
I pointed out to her that she was weighing the cereal at the same time as the apples and the weight / price would be wrong .
" No , " she indicated , " the scanner will read the cereal and get the price right .
" After a couple of minutes a manager came over , removed the cereal and weighed the apples .
I left before she explained the issue to the clerk , who was still wondering how the apples dropped by a pound .
It 's become quite a struggle , as I grow older , not to stand up and shout whenever someone makes a decision solely for political reasons , or when they do n't understand the value of training employees of any age bracket , or when I work for someone who 's incapable of making a decision .
In my younger days it was easier simply to ignore it , but now in my late-50 's it 's sometimes quite an effort to ignore the BS that comes my way .
People talk about how you should " pick your battles .
" Walking away from the BS , on my terms , was my way to pick my battles .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I spent 13 years working in development.
I survived matrix management, interchangeable plastic people, managers who couldn't prioritize work, managers who couldn't understand the purpose of a Gantt chart, senseless incentive plans and other IT management disasters.
At 45 (a little late, I guess) I realized that I was simply sick of the BS that comes with being a drone in IT.
13 years ago I was offered a job in 3rd-level tech support (production DBA, in the trenches every day), and took it.
The politics is much lower on the production support side, which gets you out of most of the BS.
No requirements drift, fewer communications problems, no crunch-to-meet-the-deadline, etc.
So the move's been good for me.
But I've also noticed that my tolerance for BS in every area of my life has dropped as I've aged.
Like the time when a grocery clerk had some apples and a box of cereal on the weigh station while she was weighing the apples.
I pointed out to her that she was weighing the cereal at the same time as the apples and the weight / price would be wrong.
"No," she indicated, "the scanner will read the cereal and get the price right.
"  After a couple of minutes a manager came over, removed the cereal and weighed the apples.
I left before she explained the issue to the clerk, who was still wondering how the apples dropped by a pound.
It's become quite a struggle, as I grow older, not to stand up and shout whenever someone makes a decision solely for political reasons, or when they don't understand the value of training employees of any age bracket, or when I work for someone who's incapable of making a decision.
In my younger days it was easier simply to ignore it, but now in my late-50's it's sometimes quite an effort to ignore the BS that comes my way.
People talk about how you should "pick your battles.
"  Walking away from the BS, on my terms, was my way to pick my battles.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31175722</id>
	<title>Re:My tolerance for BS has dropped as I've aged</title>
	<author>mcgrew</author>
	<datestamp>1265017800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>But I've also noticed that my tolerance for BS in every area of my life has dropped as I've aged.</i></p><p>I've noticed the opposite with myself. I was pretty much a hothead when I was young, but have mellowed with age. In the apples/cereal fiasco, I would have pittied the poor retarded clerk who was likely to never get anywhere in life, due to her lack of reasoning abilities, and simply said "humor me, take the cereal off." If she refused, I'd simply lef tthe groceries on the counter and left.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>But I 've also noticed that my tolerance for BS in every area of my life has dropped as I 've aged.I 've noticed the opposite with myself .
I was pretty much a hothead when I was young , but have mellowed with age .
In the apples/cereal fiasco , I would have pittied the poor retarded clerk who was likely to never get anywhere in life , due to her lack of reasoning abilities , and simply said " humor me , take the cereal off .
" If she refused , I 'd simply lef tthe groceries on the counter and left .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But I've also noticed that my tolerance for BS in every area of my life has dropped as I've aged.I've noticed the opposite with myself.
I was pretty much a hothead when I was young, but have mellowed with age.
In the apples/cereal fiasco, I would have pittied the poor retarded clerk who was likely to never get anywhere in life, due to her lack of reasoning abilities, and simply said "humor me, take the cereal off.
" If she refused, I'd simply lef tthe groceries on the counter and left.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172808</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173644</id>
	<title>I'm 54</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265054040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So I'm 54 years old - and I've been programming since I was 14 years old.  I have no problem getting good, well-paid jobs as a senior C++ programmer and lead software engineer.  Not every company needs someone with that much experience - but those who do, seem to value what I have to offer.</p><p>Keeping up with modern technology is something I have to consciously have to do - but anyone over the age of maybe 25 needs to do that.   If you're 25 and you haven't learned anything new since you were in college - then you're in trouble LONG before you hit 40.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So I 'm 54 years old - and I 've been programming since I was 14 years old .
I have no problem getting good , well-paid jobs as a senior C + + programmer and lead software engineer .
Not every company needs someone with that much experience - but those who do , seem to value what I have to offer.Keeping up with modern technology is something I have to consciously have to do - but anyone over the age of maybe 25 needs to do that .
If you 're 25 and you have n't learned anything new since you were in college - then you 're in trouble LONG before you hit 40 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So I'm 54 years old - and I've been programming since I was 14 years old.
I have no problem getting good, well-paid jobs as a senior C++ programmer and lead software engineer.
Not every company needs someone with that much experience - but those who do, seem to value what I have to offer.Keeping up with modern technology is something I have to consciously have to do - but anyone over the age of maybe 25 needs to do that.
If you're 25 and you haven't learned anything new since you were in college - then you're in trouble LONG before you hit 40.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31178776</id>
	<title>Re:Obivous Answer</title>
	<author>MmmmAqua</author>
	<datestamp>1265031900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>per program</p></div></blockquote><p>
Um, per program, or per<b>l</b> programmer?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>per program Um , per program , or perl programmer ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>per program
Um, per program, or perl programmer?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173706</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31180476</id>
	<title>Re:lot of 50-something developers in my company</title>
	<author>jasenj1</author>
	<datestamp>1265047320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Totally agree. I don't know why people can't grasp the concept that no matter how much work you do today there will be more to do tomorrow.<br>I hear people all in a tizzy say, "I HAVE to get this done" and I just shake my head. Why? What will happen if you don't? A deadline will slip? They've been slipping for thousands of years. Yours slipping won't bring civilization crashing down. Use this crisis to learn to set realistic deadlines and manage expectations.</p><p>Now I'm not advocating being slack or lazy. Put in a full day's work. Work hard. Get things done. But GO HOME! If you can't set borders on your life and personal time, your employer will happily work you 80 hours per week - and you'll still have too much to do, just like when you were only working 50 hours a week.</p><p>I think some people just operate in perpetual crisis mode. There's something about the feeling of urgency and immediacy that drives and sustains them. Not me.</p><p>FWIW, I'm 41, been a programmer/"software engineer" for going on 20 years, have been at my current position at a large company for 10 years. All my customers praise my performance and results. I deliver solutions that work on time - with very rare extra hours.</p><p>I continue to enjoy the software development process: study problem, select solution platform, implement. I'm mostly a Java hack (learned Pascal &amp; C in school), am picking up Groovy &amp; Grails, do a fair bit of XSLT, and am getting more versed in "semantic web" technologies (RDF, OWL, Sesame). Being a coder does mean constant learning, but I'm finding the things I'm learning these days are "higher up the stack" than earlier in my career.</p><p>As others have pointed out, the young bucks tend to have fewer obligations outside work (read family), and are more eager to make a name for themselves impressing management. I don't know that there's a way to solve that. I enjoy my job, but it is a job; I have other things to do with my life. If management chooses to discard the institutional knowledge and experience I have, that's their choice.</p><p>That was a long rambling response, but it is a subject I am definitely familiar with and interested in.</p><p>- Jasen.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Totally agree .
I do n't know why people ca n't grasp the concept that no matter how much work you do today there will be more to do tomorrow.I hear people all in a tizzy say , " I HAVE to get this done " and I just shake my head .
Why ? What will happen if you do n't ?
A deadline will slip ?
They 've been slipping for thousands of years .
Yours slipping wo n't bring civilization crashing down .
Use this crisis to learn to set realistic deadlines and manage expectations.Now I 'm not advocating being slack or lazy .
Put in a full day 's work .
Work hard .
Get things done .
But GO HOME !
If you ca n't set borders on your life and personal time , your employer will happily work you 80 hours per week - and you 'll still have too much to do , just like when you were only working 50 hours a week.I think some people just operate in perpetual crisis mode .
There 's something about the feeling of urgency and immediacy that drives and sustains them .
Not me.FWIW , I 'm 41 , been a programmer/ " software engineer " for going on 20 years , have been at my current position at a large company for 10 years .
All my customers praise my performance and results .
I deliver solutions that work on time - with very rare extra hours.I continue to enjoy the software development process : study problem , select solution platform , implement .
I 'm mostly a Java hack ( learned Pascal &amp; C in school ) , am picking up Groovy &amp; Grails , do a fair bit of XSLT , and am getting more versed in " semantic web " technologies ( RDF , OWL , Sesame ) .
Being a coder does mean constant learning , but I 'm finding the things I 'm learning these days are " higher up the stack " than earlier in my career.As others have pointed out , the young bucks tend to have fewer obligations outside work ( read family ) , and are more eager to make a name for themselves impressing management .
I do n't know that there 's a way to solve that .
I enjoy my job , but it is a job ; I have other things to do with my life .
If management chooses to discard the institutional knowledge and experience I have , that 's their choice.That was a long rambling response , but it is a subject I am definitely familiar with and interested in.- Jasen .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Totally agree.
I don't know why people can't grasp the concept that no matter how much work you do today there will be more to do tomorrow.I hear people all in a tizzy say, "I HAVE to get this done" and I just shake my head.
Why? What will happen if you don't?
A deadline will slip?
They've been slipping for thousands of years.
Yours slipping won't bring civilization crashing down.
Use this crisis to learn to set realistic deadlines and manage expectations.Now I'm not advocating being slack or lazy.
Put in a full day's work.
Work hard.
Get things done.
But GO HOME!
If you can't set borders on your life and personal time, your employer will happily work you 80 hours per week - and you'll still have too much to do, just like when you were only working 50 hours a week.I think some people just operate in perpetual crisis mode.
There's something about the feeling of urgency and immediacy that drives and sustains them.
Not me.FWIW, I'm 41, been a programmer/"software engineer" for going on 20 years, have been at my current position at a large company for 10 years.
All my customers praise my performance and results.
I deliver solutions that work on time - with very rare extra hours.I continue to enjoy the software development process: study problem, select solution platform, implement.
I'm mostly a Java hack (learned Pascal &amp; C in school), am picking up Groovy &amp; Grails, do a fair bit of XSLT, and am getting more versed in "semantic web" technologies (RDF, OWL, Sesame).
Being a coder does mean constant learning, but I'm finding the things I'm learning these days are "higher up the stack" than earlier in my career.As others have pointed out, the young bucks tend to have fewer obligations outside work (read family), and are more eager to make a name for themselves impressing management.
I don't know that there's a way to solve that.
I enjoy my job, but it is a job; I have other things to do with my life.
If management chooses to discard the institutional knowledge and experience I have, that's their choice.That was a long rambling response, but it is a subject I am definitely familiar with and interested in.- Jasen.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31175534</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31180770</id>
	<title>Re:Obivous Answer</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265050740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I am 45.  I am a much better programmer now than I was in my younger years.  For one thing, I am a more mature person, and deal with people and business situations in a more mature manner and I am less likely do make some of the social mistakes I made in my youth.  On the technical side, I have seen a lot of problems in the past and have a more intuitive grasp on how to solve permutations of problems I've seen before.  I also tend to be more logical in my approach.  Well, for whatever reason, I am a better programmer.  However, I have definitely been the target of hiring discrimination.  For example, there is one company for which I interviewed and I easily aced all their interview questions and the job was similar to other jobs I have done.  But I studied the company and noticed that the average age was 27 and they had between 70 and 100 employees, so that is very difficult to do.  I asked myself, why would they hire me.  They don't hire people over thirty.  Of course, they did not.  In another situation, when I was still in my 30s, I was part of a team that was interviewing a candidate.  My team mates made such incredible exclamations as, "he graduated from college before I was born."  I pointed out that that was age discrimination and the room suddenly became quiet.  I was never allowed to interview anyone at that company again.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I am 45 .
I am a much better programmer now than I was in my younger years .
For one thing , I am a more mature person , and deal with people and business situations in a more mature manner and I am less likely do make some of the social mistakes I made in my youth .
On the technical side , I have seen a lot of problems in the past and have a more intuitive grasp on how to solve permutations of problems I 've seen before .
I also tend to be more logical in my approach .
Well , for whatever reason , I am a better programmer .
However , I have definitely been the target of hiring discrimination .
For example , there is one company for which I interviewed and I easily aced all their interview questions and the job was similar to other jobs I have done .
But I studied the company and noticed that the average age was 27 and they had between 70 and 100 employees , so that is very difficult to do .
I asked myself , why would they hire me .
They do n't hire people over thirty .
Of course , they did not .
In another situation , when I was still in my 30s , I was part of a team that was interviewing a candidate .
My team mates made such incredible exclamations as , " he graduated from college before I was born .
" I pointed out that that was age discrimination and the room suddenly became quiet .
I was never allowed to interview anyone at that company again .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am 45.
I am a much better programmer now than I was in my younger years.
For one thing, I am a more mature person, and deal with people and business situations in a more mature manner and I am less likely do make some of the social mistakes I made in my youth.
On the technical side, I have seen a lot of problems in the past and have a more intuitive grasp on how to solve permutations of problems I've seen before.
I also tend to be more logical in my approach.
Well, for whatever reason, I am a better programmer.
However, I have definitely been the target of hiring discrimination.
For example, there is one company for which I interviewed and I easily aced all their interview questions and the job was similar to other jobs I have done.
But I studied the company and noticed that the average age was 27 and they had between 70 and 100 employees, so that is very difficult to do.
I asked myself, why would they hire me.
They don't hire people over thirty.
Of course, they did not.
In another situation, when I was still in my 30s, I was part of a team that was interviewing a candidate.
My team mates made such incredible exclamations as, "he graduated from college before I was born.
"  I pointed out that that was age discrimination and the room suddenly became quiet.
I was never allowed to interview anyone at that company again.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173060</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172966</id>
	<title>Great programmers are born</title>
	<author>EmperorOfCanada</author>
	<datestamp>1265051760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Experience really helps make great programmers get even better but I have also found that mediocre programmers merely become set in their ways. I know some network admins still torturing their Novell networks into doing stuff that quite simply nobody does anymore. They were crappy admins 20 years ago and now they are crappy admins with some serious seniority. The same with programmers. I have met old crappy programmers still trying to milk the lotus notes cow dry. And the worst is when you get really experienced hard core crappy programmers who think it is a good idea to architect systems where you start by reworking the Linux kernel (using some assembler) to accomplish things that you literally could do in python and not push python too hard. (Didn't make up the last line).</htmltext>
<tokenext>Experience really helps make great programmers get even better but I have also found that mediocre programmers merely become set in their ways .
I know some network admins still torturing their Novell networks into doing stuff that quite simply nobody does anymore .
They were crappy admins 20 years ago and now they are crappy admins with some serious seniority .
The same with programmers .
I have met old crappy programmers still trying to milk the lotus notes cow dry .
And the worst is when you get really experienced hard core crappy programmers who think it is a good idea to architect systems where you start by reworking the Linux kernel ( using some assembler ) to accomplish things that you literally could do in python and not push python too hard .
( Did n't make up the last line ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Experience really helps make great programmers get even better but I have also found that mediocre programmers merely become set in their ways.
I know some network admins still torturing their Novell networks into doing stuff that quite simply nobody does anymore.
They were crappy admins 20 years ago and now they are crappy admins with some serious seniority.
The same with programmers.
I have met old crappy programmers still trying to milk the lotus notes cow dry.
And the worst is when you get really experienced hard core crappy programmers who think it is a good idea to architect systems where you start by reworking the Linux kernel (using some assembler) to accomplish things that you literally could do in python and not push python too hard.
(Didn't make up the last line).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173860</id>
	<title>as a 30something trying to get -into- the field</title>
	<author>Teunis</author>
	<datestamp>1265054760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>For about 20 years I've been trying to get -into- the field of professional programming - but due to being geographically isolated location it's been<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... difficult.<br>I'd say age isn't the only factor.</htmltext>
<tokenext>For about 20 years I 've been trying to get -into- the field of professional programming - but due to being geographically isolated location it 's been ... difficult.I 'd say age is n't the only factor .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For about 20 years I've been trying to get -into- the field of professional programming - but due to being geographically isolated location it's been ... difficult.I'd say age isn't the only factor.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173608</id>
	<title>we just hired an older programmer</title>
	<author>oudzeeman</author>
	<datestamp>1265053920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We just filled a senior level programmer position with someone in their 50s.  This person had a great resume, and did an awesome job in their interview - blew pretty much everyone else we looked at away.  I'd say he's easily 1000X better than the last young intern we had (now a grad student in CS).  I'd say most of the programmers here are in their late 30s to mid 40s.  A few are older (50ish).  I'm a young one here, a "senior" software engineer by title at the age of 30.</p><p>We're actually considering going after some young blood and spending the effort to mentor them because we have such a hard time recruiting older developers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We just filled a senior level programmer position with someone in their 50s .
This person had a great resume , and did an awesome job in their interview - blew pretty much everyone else we looked at away .
I 'd say he 's easily 1000X better than the last young intern we had ( now a grad student in CS ) .
I 'd say most of the programmers here are in their late 30s to mid 40s .
A few are older ( 50ish ) .
I 'm a young one here , a " senior " software engineer by title at the age of 30.We 're actually considering going after some young blood and spending the effort to mentor them because we have such a hard time recruiting older developers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We just filled a senior level programmer position with someone in their 50s.
This person had a great resume, and did an awesome job in their interview - blew pretty much everyone else we looked at away.
I'd say he's easily 1000X better than the last young intern we had (now a grad student in CS).
I'd say most of the programmers here are in their late 30s to mid 40s.
A few are older (50ish).
I'm a young one here, a "senior" software engineer by title at the age of 30.We're actually considering going after some young blood and spending the effort to mentor them because we have such a hard time recruiting older developers.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173186</id>
	<title>Im not old, im gold...</title>
	<author>SolarStorm</author>
	<datestamp>1265052480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>The only comment this 49 year old is that I produce twice as much code as the youngens in my 40 hr work week, than they do in their 60 hrs (yes I do have a lot of domain knowledge to go along with some experience and libraries I have developed).  I actually hit my timelines, give reasonably accurate estimates.  But only earn 30\% more.  Then again, I have three department heads arguing over who gets me next...

My favorite was a contract I did where the company policy was to hire 34 NEW graduates and pay them almost nothing with the monkey-bible theory.  I made a TON of money when they need to call in some experience to get their software to work.  I wish more companies would do this<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</htmltext>
<tokenext>The only comment this 49 year old is that I produce twice as much code as the youngens in my 40 hr work week , than they do in their 60 hrs ( yes I do have a lot of domain knowledge to go along with some experience and libraries I have developed ) .
I actually hit my timelines , give reasonably accurate estimates .
But only earn 30 \ % more .
Then again , I have three department heads arguing over who gets me next.. . My favorite was a contract I did where the company policy was to hire 34 NEW graduates and pay them almost nothing with the monkey-bible theory .
I made a TON of money when they need to call in some experience to get their software to work .
I wish more companies would do this : )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The only comment this 49 year old is that I produce twice as much code as the youngens in my 40 hr work week, than they do in their 60 hrs (yes I do have a lot of domain knowledge to go along with some experience and libraries I have developed).
I actually hit my timelines, give reasonably accurate estimates.
But only earn 30\% more.
Then again, I have three department heads arguing over who gets me next...

My favorite was a contract I did where the company policy was to hire 34 NEW graduates and pay them almost nothing with the monkey-bible theory.
I made a TON of money when they need to call in some experience to get their software to work.
I wish more companies would do this :)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173278</id>
	<title>Re:Obivous Answer</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265052780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Eventually people do tend to get promoted beyond programming positions.</p><p>And the other 90\% that don't get promoted because those spots were filled by the 10\%?</p></div><p>Agreed. That's always been the case.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>I think the real reason is simple.  People older than me (almost 40) are likely to be mainframe programmers.  Back then, there weren't a lot of computers.  So there weren't a lot of programmers.  The office where I work now is filled with people around 40yo doing c++/unix.  Come back in about 10 or 20 years, and you'll see a lot of older programmers.</p></div><p>Dude, I couldn't disagree more.</p><p>C++ was taking hold as a mainstream language in the <i>early 90s</i>. Borland C++ came out in 1988 - I believe. When C++ came out and it was making a BIG splash I was in my early 20s. At the beginning of my development career, I was strictly C/C++ on PCs,Servers, and workstations. Back then, just knowing a language was enough, meaning a job description was "2-5 years C++ experience. AT&amp;T Unix a plus" - I really miss those days!</p><p>In my say we made fun of the mainframe programmers as being old fogies. </p><p>Lastly, I'd like to point out, I know a few mainframe programmers and whenever they've been laid off, they got a job within a year - even when they're over 40. And here's the funny thing, the latest <i>hardware</i> technology is being developed for the mainframe. That wasn't the case when I started out. IBM develops a COBOL compiler and whatnot for the mainframe and on their way. </p><p>COBOL the language for the latest hardware.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Eventually people do tend to get promoted beyond programming positions.And the other 90 \ % that do n't get promoted because those spots were filled by the 10 \ % ? Agreed .
That 's always been the case.I think the real reason is simple .
People older than me ( almost 40 ) are likely to be mainframe programmers .
Back then , there were n't a lot of computers .
So there were n't a lot of programmers .
The office where I work now is filled with people around 40yo doing c + + /unix .
Come back in about 10 or 20 years , and you 'll see a lot of older programmers.Dude , I could n't disagree more.C + + was taking hold as a mainstream language in the early 90s .
Borland C + + came out in 1988 - I believe .
When C + + came out and it was making a BIG splash I was in my early 20s .
At the beginning of my development career , I was strictly C/C + + on PCs,Servers , and workstations .
Back then , just knowing a language was enough , meaning a job description was " 2-5 years C + + experience .
AT&amp;T Unix a plus " - I really miss those days ! In my say we made fun of the mainframe programmers as being old fogies .
Lastly , I 'd like to point out , I know a few mainframe programmers and whenever they 've been laid off , they got a job within a year - even when they 're over 40 .
And here 's the funny thing , the latest hardware technology is being developed for the mainframe .
That was n't the case when I started out .
IBM develops a COBOL compiler and whatnot for the mainframe and on their way .
COBOL the language for the latest hardware .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Eventually people do tend to get promoted beyond programming positions.And the other 90\% that don't get promoted because those spots were filled by the 10\%?Agreed.
That's always been the case.I think the real reason is simple.
People older than me (almost 40) are likely to be mainframe programmers.
Back then, there weren't a lot of computers.
So there weren't a lot of programmers.
The office where I work now is filled with people around 40yo doing c++/unix.
Come back in about 10 or 20 years, and you'll see a lot of older programmers.Dude, I couldn't disagree more.C++ was taking hold as a mainstream language in the early 90s.
Borland C++ came out in 1988 - I believe.
When C++ came out and it was making a BIG splash I was in my early 20s.
At the beginning of my development career, I was strictly C/C++ on PCs,Servers, and workstations.
Back then, just knowing a language was enough, meaning a job description was "2-5 years C++ experience.
AT&amp;T Unix a plus" - I really miss those days!In my say we made fun of the mainframe programmers as being old fogies.
Lastly, I'd like to point out, I know a few mainframe programmers and whenever they've been laid off, they got a job within a year - even when they're over 40.
And here's the funny thing, the latest hardware technology is being developed for the mainframe.
That wasn't the case when I started out.
IBM develops a COBOL compiler and whatnot for the mainframe and on their way.
COBOL the language for the latest hardware.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172346</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171842</id>
	<title>It is age discrimination</title>
	<author>royallthefourth</author>
	<datestamp>1265048460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The summary says that it's not merely age discrimination, then goes on to say that they hire younger workers because they are cheaper, without bothering to account for experience.<br>That is age discrimination.</p><p>What a horrible, stupid summary.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The summary says that it 's not merely age discrimination , then goes on to say that they hire younger workers because they are cheaper , without bothering to account for experience.That is age discrimination.What a horrible , stupid summary .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The summary says that it's not merely age discrimination, then goes on to say that they hire younger workers because they are cheaper, without bothering to account for experience.That is age discrimination.What a horrible, stupid summary.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172906</id>
	<title>Downtime and Experience</title>
	<author>butabozuhi</author>
	<datestamp>1265051580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>A related issue is the 'downtime' associated with some productive programmers. I have a really good, really experienced programmer that does work in 'cycles.' Super productive, head-down, jam until fixed/completed, then a period of 'less productive' research, a proclivity to chat, and some fooling around. Overall, more productive than most other programmers I've worked with plus high quality code. Outsiders (even 'IT outsiders' who don't understand programming) look and question this guy's productivity and wonder if he should be replaced with a less expensive option (i.e. 'hungry' newbie). Experience helps you see things the new guy won't and, in many cases, helps you be more productive instead of busy flailing around.</htmltext>
<tokenext>A related issue is the 'downtime ' associated with some productive programmers .
I have a really good , really experienced programmer that does work in 'cycles .
' Super productive , head-down , jam until fixed/completed , then a period of 'less productive ' research , a proclivity to chat , and some fooling around .
Overall , more productive than most other programmers I 've worked with plus high quality code .
Outsiders ( even 'IT outsiders ' who do n't understand programming ) look and question this guy 's productivity and wonder if he should be replaced with a less expensive option ( i.e .
'hungry ' newbie ) .
Experience helps you see things the new guy wo n't and , in many cases , helps you be more productive instead of busy flailing around .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A related issue is the 'downtime' associated with some productive programmers.
I have a really good, really experienced programmer that does work in 'cycles.
' Super productive, head-down, jam until fixed/completed, then a period of 'less productive' research, a proclivity to chat, and some fooling around.
Overall, more productive than most other programmers I've worked with plus high quality code.
Outsiders (even 'IT outsiders' who don't understand programming) look and question this guy's productivity and wonder if he should be replaced with a less expensive option (i.e.
'hungry' newbie).
Experience helps you see things the new guy won't and, in many cases, helps you be more productive instead of busy flailing around.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31174766</id>
	<title>Re:Youthful arrogance....</title>
	<author>Ramley</author>
	<datestamp>1265057880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Is the younger generation of programmers really that arrogant to think that older programmers don't know and learn new languages and coding trends?  it is my experience that the best coders out there are those over 40.  Not only are they on top of technologies that are current, but they understand why those technologies came to be and what they helped to improve.  Many of them learned on the job, in a budding industry.</p></div><p>How nice to hear! Thank you for that. I think one of my greater fears in life (career-wise) is to be perceived as an old man in a young man's profession.</p><p>I am a 45 year \_old\_ programmer who was classically trained in CS on a Vax-11780. Along the way in my career, I played with and learned Apple II's, IBM PC's, (original) Macintosh, and so on. I had also operated and played with BBS's and Email protocols, (FidoNet, UUCP), Dialup (Tribelink's, Portmasters), HTML, and then on to Web scripting languages, SQL, and deeply into Linux and the open source world.</p><p>I had learned all of this on my own, as needed, when many of these technologies were new -- and it could be difficult to find someone who can support them. Learning them was the only way to really understand how to make them work for my organizations, and work reliably.</p><p>It seems that my whole life I have been "upgrading" and continuously learning new technologies. It's a very natural part of my day, anymore. So far, I have been lucky, as the perception people have of me doesn't seem to be "he's over the hill". Although I can't say I don't see that day coming.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Is the younger generation of programmers really that arrogant to think that older programmers do n't know and learn new languages and coding trends ?
it is my experience that the best coders out there are those over 40 .
Not only are they on top of technologies that are current , but they understand why those technologies came to be and what they helped to improve .
Many of them learned on the job , in a budding industry.How nice to hear !
Thank you for that .
I think one of my greater fears in life ( career-wise ) is to be perceived as an old man in a young man 's profession.I am a 45 year \ _old \ _ programmer who was classically trained in CS on a Vax-11780 .
Along the way in my career , I played with and learned Apple II 's , IBM PC 's , ( original ) Macintosh , and so on .
I had also operated and played with BBS 's and Email protocols , ( FidoNet , UUCP ) , Dialup ( Tribelink 's , Portmasters ) , HTML , and then on to Web scripting languages , SQL , and deeply into Linux and the open source world.I had learned all of this on my own , as needed , when many of these technologies were new -- and it could be difficult to find someone who can support them .
Learning them was the only way to really understand how to make them work for my organizations , and work reliably.It seems that my whole life I have been " upgrading " and continuously learning new technologies .
It 's a very natural part of my day , anymore .
So far , I have been lucky , as the perception people have of me does n't seem to be " he 's over the hill " .
Although I ca n't say I do n't see that day coming .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is the younger generation of programmers really that arrogant to think that older programmers don't know and learn new languages and coding trends?
it is my experience that the best coders out there are those over 40.
Not only are they on top of technologies that are current, but they understand why those technologies came to be and what they helped to improve.
Many of them learned on the job, in a budding industry.How nice to hear!
Thank you for that.
I think one of my greater fears in life (career-wise) is to be perceived as an old man in a young man's profession.I am a 45 year \_old\_ programmer who was classically trained in CS on a Vax-11780.
Along the way in my career, I played with and learned Apple II's, IBM PC's, (original) Macintosh, and so on.
I had also operated and played with BBS's and Email protocols, (FidoNet, UUCP), Dialup (Tribelink's, Portmasters), HTML, and then on to Web scripting languages, SQL, and deeply into Linux and the open source world.I had learned all of this on my own, as needed, when many of these technologies were new -- and it could be difficult to find someone who can support them.
Learning them was the only way to really understand how to make them work for my organizations, and work reliably.It seems that my whole life I have been "upgrading" and continuously learning new technologies.
It's a very natural part of my day, anymore.
So far, I have been lucky, as the perception people have of me doesn't seem to be "he's over the hill".
Although I can't say I don't see that day coming.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172100</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31178578</id>
	<title>Re:A question for all you experienced types out th</title>
	<author>FlyingGuy</author>
	<datestamp>1265030100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Download a copy of Turbo Pascal 3.x (you can download it from the Borland Museum) or get your hands on an old copy of Basic or BasicA.</p><p>This will let you experiment with all the various control and looping structures.  Programming at its most basic is about doing something with some data, adding two numbers together, storing some bit of information.  Drawing pretty pictures on a screen while satisfying has very little to do with learning programming as a hobby or otherwise.
</p><p> <b>Invest</b> some time learning how a computer works and how the instruction you write affect what the machine does.  That desktop machine you have is an insanely powerful bit of technology.  Your basic Casio wrist watch has more raw computing power then the computers use to get the first man on the moon, just think of what you have on your desk compared to that.</p><p>I recommend Pascal because it is a language that was designed primarily as a teaching tool and there are so very very many books out there that use it and I am not talking about the books you buy these days, eg: Teach yourself Java in a week I am talking about books that teach the fundamental constructs of programming.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Download a copy of Turbo Pascal 3.x ( you can download it from the Borland Museum ) or get your hands on an old copy of Basic or BasicA.This will let you experiment with all the various control and looping structures .
Programming at its most basic is about doing something with some data , adding two numbers together , storing some bit of information .
Drawing pretty pictures on a screen while satisfying has very little to do with learning programming as a hobby or otherwise .
Invest some time learning how a computer works and how the instruction you write affect what the machine does .
That desktop machine you have is an insanely powerful bit of technology .
Your basic Casio wrist watch has more raw computing power then the computers use to get the first man on the moon , just think of what you have on your desk compared to that.I recommend Pascal because it is a language that was designed primarily as a teaching tool and there are so very very many books out there that use it and I am not talking about the books you buy these days , eg : Teach yourself Java in a week I am talking about books that teach the fundamental constructs of programming .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Download a copy of Turbo Pascal 3.x (you can download it from the Borland Museum) or get your hands on an old copy of Basic or BasicA.This will let you experiment with all the various control and looping structures.
Programming at its most basic is about doing something with some data, adding two numbers together, storing some bit of information.
Drawing pretty pictures on a screen while satisfying has very little to do with learning programming as a hobby or otherwise.
Invest some time learning how a computer works and how the instruction you write affect what the machine does.
That desktop machine you have is an insanely powerful bit of technology.
Your basic Casio wrist watch has more raw computing power then the computers use to get the first man on the moon, just think of what you have on your desk compared to that.I recommend Pascal because it is a language that was designed primarily as a teaching tool and there are so very very many books out there that use it and I am not talking about the books you buy these days, eg: Teach yourself Java in a week I am talking about books that teach the fundamental constructs of programming.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172432</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172272</id>
	<title>push as hard as you like.</title>
	<author>nimbius</author>
	<datestamp>1265049780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>and if you push them all out youll find yourself tripling indirectly their salary as you employ independent business consultants to troubleshoot some of the most malignant and complex problems in computer programming to which solutions are only gleaned once one has become seasoned and experienced with writing millions upon millions of lines of code.  the triangle is civilization:  fast, cheap, good.</htmltext>
<tokenext>and if you push them all out youll find yourself tripling indirectly their salary as you employ independent business consultants to troubleshoot some of the most malignant and complex problems in computer programming to which solutions are only gleaned once one has become seasoned and experienced with writing millions upon millions of lines of code .
the triangle is civilization : fast , cheap , good .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>and if you push them all out youll find yourself tripling indirectly their salary as you employ independent business consultants to troubleshoot some of the most malignant and complex problems in computer programming to which solutions are only gleaned once one has become seasoned and experienced with writing millions upon millions of lines of code.
the triangle is civilization:  fast, cheap, good.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31177620</id>
	<title>Re:Age Test</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265025120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>If you are thinking about a naked Jennifer Agutter, then you are old.</p></div></blockquote><p>I'm old, there's no doubt, but I'm not old enough to fantasize about 57 year old women, yet.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you are thinking about a naked Jennifer Agutter , then you are old.I 'm old , there 's no doubt , but I 'm not old enough to fantasize about 57 year old women , yet .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you are thinking about a naked Jennifer Agutter, then you are old.I'm old, there's no doubt, but I'm not old enough to fantasize about 57 year old women, yet.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172116</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31176086</id>
	<title>Re:Obivous Answer</title>
	<author>mdarksbane</author>
	<datestamp>1265019120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree 100\%. Every project team I have been on, I have thought to myself "We could really benefit from someone over 30 who's actually done something vaguely like this before."</p><p>The problem is twofold:</p><p>1) It is a field where more experience is not directly correlated with better ability. This applies to many things, but is extremely true in programming. My wife's company has many elder programmers - they are the source of her favorite quote that "you can write COBOL in any language."</p><p>2) Partially because of this, and partially because non-programmer managers have no way of identifying good programmers to begin with, the salary structure does not reward or encourage experienced, quality programmers who stay in the discipline.</p><p>Who knows, though. This may be a short-term artifact. Fourty-year-olds in programming now grew up on punch-cards, BASIC, and COBOL. There have been so many dramatic paradigm shifts in programming during their tenure that it would make sense for them to not have necessarily kept up - even the core rules of how to design software have largely changed. As things slow down a bit in those terms (a normal computer from twenty years ago is at least recognizable as being something similar to today) I wonder how much that will change on its own.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree 100 \ % .
Every project team I have been on , I have thought to myself " We could really benefit from someone over 30 who 's actually done something vaguely like this before .
" The problem is twofold : 1 ) It is a field where more experience is not directly correlated with better ability .
This applies to many things , but is extremely true in programming .
My wife 's company has many elder programmers - they are the source of her favorite quote that " you can write COBOL in any language .
" 2 ) Partially because of this , and partially because non-programmer managers have no way of identifying good programmers to begin with , the salary structure does not reward or encourage experienced , quality programmers who stay in the discipline.Who knows , though .
This may be a short-term artifact .
Fourty-year-olds in programming now grew up on punch-cards , BASIC , and COBOL .
There have been so many dramatic paradigm shifts in programming during their tenure that it would make sense for them to not have necessarily kept up - even the core rules of how to design software have largely changed .
As things slow down a bit in those terms ( a normal computer from twenty years ago is at least recognizable as being something similar to today ) I wonder how much that will change on its own .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree 100\%.
Every project team I have been on, I have thought to myself "We could really benefit from someone over 30 who's actually done something vaguely like this before.
"The problem is twofold:1) It is a field where more experience is not directly correlated with better ability.
This applies to many things, but is extremely true in programming.
My wife's company has many elder programmers - they are the source of her favorite quote that "you can write COBOL in any language.
"2) Partially because of this, and partially because non-programmer managers have no way of identifying good programmers to begin with, the salary structure does not reward or encourage experienced, quality programmers who stay in the discipline.Who knows, though.
This may be a short-term artifact.
Fourty-year-olds in programming now grew up on punch-cards, BASIC, and COBOL.
There have been so many dramatic paradigm shifts in programming during their tenure that it would make sense for them to not have necessarily kept up - even the core rules of how to design software have largely changed.
As things slow down a bit in those terms (a normal computer from twenty years ago is at least recognizable as being something similar to today) I wonder how much that will change on its own.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173060</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31174420</id>
	<title>Re:Experience</title>
	<author>mcgrew</author>
	<datestamp>1265056740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Reminds me of a very old story from the earliest of computer days (probably before I was born). The computer stopped working, so the company called in a repairman. He took one look at it, pulled out a small hammer, tapped it and it started back up. He charged $500 for it.</p><p>"What!?!" exclaimed the angered manager. "Five hundred bucks to tap it with a hammer? I want an itemized bill!"</p><p>So he got his itemized bill.</p><p>Tapping computer with hammer: $1<br>Knowing where to tap: $499</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Reminds me of a very old story from the earliest of computer days ( probably before I was born ) .
The computer stopped working , so the company called in a repairman .
He took one look at it , pulled out a small hammer , tapped it and it started back up .
He charged $ 500 for it. " What ! ? !
" exclaimed the angered manager .
" Five hundred bucks to tap it with a hammer ?
I want an itemized bill !
" So he got his itemized bill.Tapping computer with hammer : $ 1Knowing where to tap : $ 499</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Reminds me of a very old story from the earliest of computer days (probably before I was born).
The computer stopped working, so the company called in a repairman.
He took one look at it, pulled out a small hammer, tapped it and it started back up.
He charged $500 for it."What!?!
" exclaimed the angered manager.
"Five hundred bucks to tap it with a hammer?
I want an itemized bill!
"So he got his itemized bill.Tapping computer with hammer: $1Knowing where to tap: $499</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171954</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173034</id>
	<title>Re:Obivous Answer</title>
	<author>parla</author>
	<datestamp>1265052000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'd consider getting a managing position as being demoted.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd consider getting a managing position as being demoted .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd consider getting a managing position as being demoted.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171678</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171954</id>
	<title>Experience</title>
	<author>copponex</author>
	<datestamp>1265048760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Across every industry I've been involved in, a good piece of advice from an old business mentor has held true:</p><p>When you pay an expert $100 an hour, you're not paying them for the hour. You're paying them for the years of experience they have plus an hour of their time.</p><p>This also dovetailed well with what a mechanic told me when I was trying to lowball him: "When you pay peanuts, all you get is monkey business."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Across every industry I 've been involved in , a good piece of advice from an old business mentor has held true : When you pay an expert $ 100 an hour , you 're not paying them for the hour .
You 're paying them for the years of experience they have plus an hour of their time.This also dovetailed well with what a mechanic told me when I was trying to lowball him : " When you pay peanuts , all you get is monkey business .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Across every industry I've been involved in, a good piece of advice from an old business mentor has held true:When you pay an expert $100 an hour, you're not paying them for the hour.
You're paying them for the years of experience they have plus an hour of their time.This also dovetailed well with what a mechanic told me when I was trying to lowball him: "When you pay peanuts, all you get is monkey business.
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173626</id>
	<title>Cheaper young 'uns will work longer hours?</title>
	<author>joeyblades</author>
	<datestamp>1265053980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
I have observed the opposite. The young 'uns want to go home early so they can party and come in late 'cause they partied last night... And at home, when I'm punching in some extra hours, I only ever see old farts still on-line.
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have observed the opposite .
The young 'uns want to go home early so they can party and come in late 'cause they partied last night... And at home , when I 'm punching in some extra hours , I only ever see old farts still on-line .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
I have observed the opposite.
The young 'uns want to go home early so they can party and come in late 'cause they partied last night... And at home, when I'm punching in some extra hours, I only ever see old farts still on-line.
</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172502</id>
	<title>Quality vs. Quantity</title>
	<author>AthleteMusicianNerd</author>
	<datestamp>1265050440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>"Cheaper young 'uns will work longer hours and produce more code."
<br>
It's not necessarily useful.  Some young 'uns produce pure drivel.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" Cheaper young 'uns will work longer hours and produce more code .
" It 's not necessarily useful .
Some young 'uns produce pure drivel .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Cheaper young 'uns will work longer hours and produce more code.
"

It's not necessarily useful.
Some young 'uns produce pure drivel.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31175160</id>
	<title>Re:Youthful arrogance....</title>
	<author>MoriT</author>
	<datestamp>1265016000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Nope, but if a language has only been around for 10 years than someone with 40 years experience has no more experience with that particular language than I do, and possibly have less.  If what the hiring manager is looking for is experience with a particular technology, there is no reason to pay more for someone with many years of, at best, marginally related experience.


Many coding jobs involve significant spin-up time in the particular technologies, domain and tools being used, which diminishes the value of previous experience.  However, this is not reflected in the premium arrogant older programmers expect to be paid.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Nope , but if a language has only been around for 10 years than someone with 40 years experience has no more experience with that particular language than I do , and possibly have less .
If what the hiring manager is looking for is experience with a particular technology , there is no reason to pay more for someone with many years of , at best , marginally related experience .
Many coding jobs involve significant spin-up time in the particular technologies , domain and tools being used , which diminishes the value of previous experience .
However , this is not reflected in the premium arrogant older programmers expect to be paid .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nope, but if a language has only been around for 10 years than someone with 40 years experience has no more experience with that particular language than I do, and possibly have less.
If what the hiring manager is looking for is experience with a particular technology, there is no reason to pay more for someone with many years of, at best, marginally related experience.
Many coding jobs involve significant spin-up time in the particular technologies, domain and tools being used, which diminishes the value of previous experience.
However, this is not reflected in the premium arrogant older programmers expect to be paid.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172100</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31174182</id>
	<title>I've experienced the following....</title>
	<author>ErichTheRed</author>
	<datestamp>1265055840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>(Disclaimer: I'm a systems guy, not a programmer, but a very similar truth holds for us as well when it comes to age discrimination.)</p><p>I'm only 35, and I'm starting to see this creeping in on me also. Here's a couple of random observations I've actually (not anecdotally) experienced:</p><ul><li>Companies absolutely believe the stereotype that older workers are less productive. Usually, this is because management gets promoted out of the tech ranks, where they were used to younger workers. I've heard more than one boss say something like "Oh, so-and-so's kid is sick AGAIN, what a waste of time." The deadly spiral of "willing to work longer hours, no committments, and they can be paid less" does not help.</li><li>A corrolary to the above...younger tech workers tend to have much less of an "out of work" life. This is why you don't see too many older people working at video game production houses...you just can't hold a marriage together on nonstop 90-hour weeks. If you're single, and have nothing but a one bedroom apartment and XBox to come home to, you're going to complain less about constant overtime and that pesky pager duty us systems guys deal with.</li><li>After being filtered through 2 line managers, and who-knows-how-many project managers, IT executive leadership just doesn't see the impact of less-experienced people working on projects. Messes are cleaned up at lower levels, usually by spending a buttload of money on consultants, and only show up at the senior level as "minor overages". Had the job been done right, the higher salary paid to more experienced people would far outweigh paying experts $xxx/hr to unravel some mess put together by someone who just learned Java.</li><li>Even worse, people at the C-level believe that all IT people are whiny nerds who can be pushed around with very little pushback. This leads to the belief that nothing they do will be questioned.</li></ul><p>I only see a couple solutions. A concerted effort could be made to make managerment aware of the actual cost of a project vs. the salary differential. I doubt that will work. You can also become one of those consultants, and get paid loads of money to clean up messes. However, that's not for everyone...it requires tons of hard work, business savvy and is not at all stable. Try raising a family with no health insurance and a non-guaranteed income stream, especially in a high-cost-of-living area.</p><p>I admit that I'm pretty lucky. I've managed to land at companies that don't seem to mind paying a little extra for someone who really knows their stuff. The price of admission for jobs like that is the willingness to invest in yourself constantly. Taking classes or buying software/hardware/books for training, even on your own time, is the best way to keep current. That way, companies get the best of both worlds...someone who knows the latest tech, and knows enough not to implement something half-baked because they want their weekends free.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-) Unfortunately, that stereotype of the COBOL guy sitting in the corner has a little bit of truth to it, and it means we end up gettting painted with the same brush.</p><p>One other choice would require a much different mindset than there is now...accept a lower salary and make up the difference by saving and investing carefully. I've been doing this anyway, because I know there will come a time where companies stop paying for IT talent and I'm going to be forced to take a huge paycut. Everyone I know, young or old, spends money like their income is never going to decrease. Live within your means so you can last through the bad times that are coming with the next wave of globalization.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>( Disclaimer : I 'm a systems guy , not a programmer , but a very similar truth holds for us as well when it comes to age discrimination .
) I 'm only 35 , and I 'm starting to see this creeping in on me also .
Here 's a couple of random observations I 've actually ( not anecdotally ) experienced : Companies absolutely believe the stereotype that older workers are less productive .
Usually , this is because management gets promoted out of the tech ranks , where they were used to younger workers .
I 've heard more than one boss say something like " Oh , so-and-so 's kid is sick AGAIN , what a waste of time .
" The deadly spiral of " willing to work longer hours , no committments , and they can be paid less " does not help.A corrolary to the above...younger tech workers tend to have much less of an " out of work " life .
This is why you do n't see too many older people working at video game production houses...you just ca n't hold a marriage together on nonstop 90-hour weeks .
If you 're single , and have nothing but a one bedroom apartment and XBox to come home to , you 're going to complain less about constant overtime and that pesky pager duty us systems guys deal with.After being filtered through 2 line managers , and who-knows-how-many project managers , IT executive leadership just does n't see the impact of less-experienced people working on projects .
Messes are cleaned up at lower levels , usually by spending a buttload of money on consultants , and only show up at the senior level as " minor overages " .
Had the job been done right , the higher salary paid to more experienced people would far outweigh paying experts $ xxx/hr to unravel some mess put together by someone who just learned Java.Even worse , people at the C-level believe that all IT people are whiny nerds who can be pushed around with very little pushback .
This leads to the belief that nothing they do will be questioned.I only see a couple solutions .
A concerted effort could be made to make managerment aware of the actual cost of a project vs. the salary differential .
I doubt that will work .
You can also become one of those consultants , and get paid loads of money to clean up messes .
However , that 's not for everyone...it requires tons of hard work , business savvy and is not at all stable .
Try raising a family with no health insurance and a non-guaranteed income stream , especially in a high-cost-of-living area.I admit that I 'm pretty lucky .
I 've managed to land at companies that do n't seem to mind paying a little extra for someone who really knows their stuff .
The price of admission for jobs like that is the willingness to invest in yourself constantly .
Taking classes or buying software/hardware/books for training , even on your own time , is the best way to keep current .
That way , companies get the best of both worlds...someone who knows the latest tech , and knows enough not to implement something half-baked because they want their weekends free .
: - ) Unfortunately , that stereotype of the COBOL guy sitting in the corner has a little bit of truth to it , and it means we end up gettting painted with the same brush.One other choice would require a much different mindset than there is now...accept a lower salary and make up the difference by saving and investing carefully .
I 've been doing this anyway , because I know there will come a time where companies stop paying for IT talent and I 'm going to be forced to take a huge paycut .
Everyone I know , young or old , spends money like their income is never going to decrease .
Live within your means so you can last through the bad times that are coming with the next wave of globalization .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>(Disclaimer: I'm a systems guy, not a programmer, but a very similar truth holds for us as well when it comes to age discrimination.
)I'm only 35, and I'm starting to see this creeping in on me also.
Here's a couple of random observations I've actually (not anecdotally) experienced:Companies absolutely believe the stereotype that older workers are less productive.
Usually, this is because management gets promoted out of the tech ranks, where they were used to younger workers.
I've heard more than one boss say something like "Oh, so-and-so's kid is sick AGAIN, what a waste of time.
" The deadly spiral of "willing to work longer hours, no committments, and they can be paid less" does not help.A corrolary to the above...younger tech workers tend to have much less of an "out of work" life.
This is why you don't see too many older people working at video game production houses...you just can't hold a marriage together on nonstop 90-hour weeks.
If you're single, and have nothing but a one bedroom apartment and XBox to come home to, you're going to complain less about constant overtime and that pesky pager duty us systems guys deal with.After being filtered through 2 line managers, and who-knows-how-many project managers, IT executive leadership just doesn't see the impact of less-experienced people working on projects.
Messes are cleaned up at lower levels, usually by spending a buttload of money on consultants, and only show up at the senior level as "minor overages".
Had the job been done right, the higher salary paid to more experienced people would far outweigh paying experts $xxx/hr to unravel some mess put together by someone who just learned Java.Even worse, people at the C-level believe that all IT people are whiny nerds who can be pushed around with very little pushback.
This leads to the belief that nothing they do will be questioned.I only see a couple solutions.
A concerted effort could be made to make managerment aware of the actual cost of a project vs. the salary differential.
I doubt that will work.
You can also become one of those consultants, and get paid loads of money to clean up messes.
However, that's not for everyone...it requires tons of hard work, business savvy and is not at all stable.
Try raising a family with no health insurance and a non-guaranteed income stream, especially in a high-cost-of-living area.I admit that I'm pretty lucky.
I've managed to land at companies that don't seem to mind paying a little extra for someone who really knows their stuff.
The price of admission for jobs like that is the willingness to invest in yourself constantly.
Taking classes or buying software/hardware/books for training, even on your own time, is the best way to keep current.
That way, companies get the best of both worlds...someone who knows the latest tech, and knows enough not to implement something half-baked because they want their weekends free.
:-) Unfortunately, that stereotype of the COBOL guy sitting in the corner has a little bit of truth to it, and it means we end up gettting painted with the same brush.One other choice would require a much different mindset than there is now...accept a lower salary and make up the difference by saving and investing carefully.
I've been doing this anyway, because I know there will come a time where companies stop paying for IT talent and I'm going to be forced to take a huge paycut.
Everyone I know, young or old, spends money like their income is never going to decrease.
Live within your means so you can last through the bad times that are coming with the next wave of globalization.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31177006</id>
	<title>Re:Age Test</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265022780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>To quote Michael York during the commentary (during the scene when she nimbly skips across screen), "Oh, jenny, jenny,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... jenny"</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>To quote Michael York during the commentary ( during the scene when she nimbly skips across screen ) , " Oh , jenny , jenny , ... jenny "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To quote Michael York during the commentary (during the scene when she nimbly skips across screen), "Oh, jenny, jenny, ... jenny"
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172116</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172432</id>
	<title>A question for all you experienced types out there</title>
	<author>Pojut</author>
	<datestamp>1265050260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I know a decent amount of HTML, but that's about it as far as my programming knowledge is concerned.  I'm looking to get into a programming language as a hobby, with no plans to pursue it as a profession.  What would you all recommend I look at?  I've gotten conflicting opinions on Ruby, PHP, C#...what would you suggest (again, just as a hobby) and why?  Thanks for the time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I know a decent amount of HTML , but that 's about it as far as my programming knowledge is concerned .
I 'm looking to get into a programming language as a hobby , with no plans to pursue it as a profession .
What would you all recommend I look at ?
I 've gotten conflicting opinions on Ruby , PHP , C # ...what would you suggest ( again , just as a hobby ) and why ?
Thanks for the time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I know a decent amount of HTML, but that's about it as far as my programming knowledge is concerned.
I'm looking to get into a programming language as a hobby, with no plans to pursue it as a profession.
What would you all recommend I look at?
I've gotten conflicting opinions on Ruby, PHP, C#...what would you suggest (again, just as a hobby) and why?
Thanks for the time.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31174872</id>
	<title>Re:Youthful arrogance....</title>
	<author>mcgrew</author>
	<datestamp>1265015100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Is the younger generation of programmers really that arrogant to think that older programmers don't know and learn new languages and coding trends?</i></p><p>You don't remember what it's like to be 25? ALL young people are that arrogant, and think that their elders are stupid.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is the younger generation of programmers really that arrogant to think that older programmers do n't know and learn new languages and coding trends ? You do n't remember what it 's like to be 25 ?
ALL young people are that arrogant , and think that their elders are stupid .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is the younger generation of programmers really that arrogant to think that older programmers don't know and learn new languages and coding trends?You don't remember what it's like to be 25?
ALL young people are that arrogant, and think that their elders are stupid.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172100</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31176722</id>
	<title>Offshoring</title>
	<author>b4dc0d3r</author>
	<datestamp>1265021580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Engineering duties are being moved to the lowest cost area, with lead coding done on-shore.  The design and architecture gets passed out, and code comes back.  That's the new digital economy.  If you're coding, you're either doing lone-wolf work and likely to encounter the words "knowledge transfer" soon, or you're doing prototype work for someone else to flesh out.  Otherwise, you're nerf-herding and playing with Visio or UML while your job code still says "coder".</p><p>If you're old, you're probably expensive, and the first one on the chopping block when the economy craps itself.  Only safe if you've built a reputation, or can move into management, or to a team that has to have on-shore workers for contractual reasons.  After that layoff binge, you're likely to get a pay cut as job codes get reorganized.</p><p>Example: I'm one of few people left who understand how our entire client-delivery portal works end-to-end, and I'm not allowed to answer questions about it because I'm reorganized into my little cubbyhole.  "Not allowed" meaning if I do help out my old contacts in order to deliver something to a client on time it's on my own time, and I have to get my deadlines first.  I still owe some favors, so I do help sometimes.  I digress.</p><p>Posted from a Fortune 50 or less company, YMMV.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Engineering duties are being moved to the lowest cost area , with lead coding done on-shore .
The design and architecture gets passed out , and code comes back .
That 's the new digital economy .
If you 're coding , you 're either doing lone-wolf work and likely to encounter the words " knowledge transfer " soon , or you 're doing prototype work for someone else to flesh out .
Otherwise , you 're nerf-herding and playing with Visio or UML while your job code still says " coder " .If you 're old , you 're probably expensive , and the first one on the chopping block when the economy craps itself .
Only safe if you 've built a reputation , or can move into management , or to a team that has to have on-shore workers for contractual reasons .
After that layoff binge , you 're likely to get a pay cut as job codes get reorganized.Example : I 'm one of few people left who understand how our entire client-delivery portal works end-to-end , and I 'm not allowed to answer questions about it because I 'm reorganized into my little cubbyhole .
" Not allowed " meaning if I do help out my old contacts in order to deliver something to a client on time it 's on my own time , and I have to get my deadlines first .
I still owe some favors , so I do help sometimes .
I digress.Posted from a Fortune 50 or less company , YMMV .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Engineering duties are being moved to the lowest cost area, with lead coding done on-shore.
The design and architecture gets passed out, and code comes back.
That's the new digital economy.
If you're coding, you're either doing lone-wolf work and likely to encounter the words "knowledge transfer" soon, or you're doing prototype work for someone else to flesh out.
Otherwise, you're nerf-herding and playing with Visio or UML while your job code still says "coder".If you're old, you're probably expensive, and the first one on the chopping block when the economy craps itself.
Only safe if you've built a reputation, or can move into management, or to a team that has to have on-shore workers for contractual reasons.
After that layoff binge, you're likely to get a pay cut as job codes get reorganized.Example: I'm one of few people left who understand how our entire client-delivery portal works end-to-end, and I'm not allowed to answer questions about it because I'm reorganized into my little cubbyhole.
"Not allowed" meaning if I do help out my old contacts in order to deliver something to a client on time it's on my own time, and I have to get my deadlines first.
I still owe some favors, so I do help sometimes.
I digress.Posted from a Fortune 50 or less company, YMMV.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31176562</id>
	<title>Re:Experience</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265020920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>While your witticisms are true in some contexts, it's less true more and more often.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>While your witticisms are true in some contexts , it 's less true more and more often .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While your witticisms are true in some contexts, it's less true more and more often.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171954</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31174030</id>
	<title>Re:A question for all you experienced types out th</title>
	<author>secretcurse</author>
	<datestamp>1265055360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you're comfortable with HTML, I'd go with PHP.  It's basically a scripting language that makes your HTML do dynamic, interesting things.  Tie your PHP learning with some sort of SQL database and it's not too complicated to make fun projects that are useful.  There are a million good PHP/MySQL books out there.  I'd take an hour or so, go to a bookstore with a large programming section, and grab a handful of books.  Read the first chapter or so from them and find one that has a writing style you will enjoy, then go home and start hacking.

The PHP/MySQL stack is nice because it's free (both as in beer and as in liberty) and there are lots of great resources on the web.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you 're comfortable with HTML , I 'd go with PHP .
It 's basically a scripting language that makes your HTML do dynamic , interesting things .
Tie your PHP learning with some sort of SQL database and it 's not too complicated to make fun projects that are useful .
There are a million good PHP/MySQL books out there .
I 'd take an hour or so , go to a bookstore with a large programming section , and grab a handful of books .
Read the first chapter or so from them and find one that has a writing style you will enjoy , then go home and start hacking .
The PHP/MySQL stack is nice because it 's free ( both as in beer and as in liberty ) and there are lots of great resources on the web .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you're comfortable with HTML, I'd go with PHP.
It's basically a scripting language that makes your HTML do dynamic, interesting things.
Tie your PHP learning with some sort of SQL database and it's not too complicated to make fun projects that are useful.
There are a million good PHP/MySQL books out there.
I'd take an hour or so, go to a bookstore with a large programming section, and grab a handful of books.
Read the first chapter or so from them and find one that has a writing style you will enjoy, then go home and start hacking.
The PHP/MySQL stack is nice because it's free (both as in beer and as in liberty) and there are lots of great resources on the web.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172432</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172346</id>
	<title>Re:Obivous Answer</title>
	<author>infinite9</author>
	<datestamp>1265050020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Eventually people do tend to get promoted beyond programming positions.</p></div><p>And the other 90\% that don't get promoted because those spots were filled by the 10\%?</p><p>I think the real reason is simple.  People older than me (almost 40) are likely to be mainframe programmers.  Back then, there weren't a lot of computers.  So there weren't a lot of programmers.  The office where I work now is filled with people around 40yo doing c++/unix.  Come back in about 10 or 20 years, and you'll see a lot of older programmers.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Eventually people do tend to get promoted beyond programming positions.And the other 90 \ % that do n't get promoted because those spots were filled by the 10 \ % ? I think the real reason is simple .
People older than me ( almost 40 ) are likely to be mainframe programmers .
Back then , there were n't a lot of computers .
So there were n't a lot of programmers .
The office where I work now is filled with people around 40yo doing c + + /unix .
Come back in about 10 or 20 years , and you 'll see a lot of older programmers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Eventually people do tend to get promoted beyond programming positions.And the other 90\% that don't get promoted because those spots were filled by the 10\%?I think the real reason is simple.
People older than me (almost 40) are likely to be mainframe programmers.
Back then, there weren't a lot of computers.
So there weren't a lot of programmers.
The office where I work now is filled with people around 40yo doing c++/unix.
Come back in about 10 or 20 years, and you'll see a lot of older programmers.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171678</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31183080</id>
	<title>sdasdadadsa</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266502080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><ol> <li>blah</li><li>blah</li></ol><ol> <li>blah</li><li>blah</li></ol></htmltext>
<tokenext>blahblah blahblah</tokentext>
<sentencetext> blahblah blahblah</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31192494</id>
	<title>Productivity</title>
	<author>NickGnome</author>
	<datestamp>1266493800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Any developer can tell you that not all C or PHP or Java programmers are created equal; some are vastly more productive or creative."</p><p>There's been some research:<br>"The best programmers are not marginally better than merely good ones.  They are an order of magnitude better, measured by whatever standard: conceptual creativity, speed, ingenuity of design, or problem-solving ability." --- Randall E. Stross (quoted by Robert K. Weatherall "A Booming Market for New Graduates" \_Engineers\_ vol3 #2 1997 April pg 11; quoted in Richard Ellis &amp; B. Lindsay Lowell 1999 January "Core Occupations of the US Information Technolgy Work-Force")</p><p>"The computer field has [in the past] honored competence, content and creativity more than credentials." --- Clifford Adelman \_Leading, Concurrent, or Lagging: The Knowledge Content of Computer Science in Higher Education and the Labor market\_ 1997 pg 40 (quoted in Richard Ellis &amp; B. Lindsay Lowell 1999 January "Core Occupations of the US Information Technolgy Work-Force")</p><p>"One top-notch engineer is worth '300 times or more than the average', explains Alan Eustace, a Google vice president of engineering."</p><p>"The best programmers on the team may be so much better than the rest that just a few of [them] can put out more than all the rest combined." --- Alistair Cockburn 2002 \_Agile Software Development\_ pg 61</p><p>But, such researchers have noted, it's the few people who know 10 or more programming languages who outshine the rest.  Another odd correlation with high productivity is having a background in music, not math or physics.  Scientists who can do a little programming are usually terrible at it; their software is almost impossible to maintain.  But then how many 20 year olds know a dozen programming languages?  And how many of the silver-backs have learned several additional programming languages in the last decade?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Any developer can tell you that not all C or PHP or Java programmers are created equal ; some are vastly more productive or creative .
" There 's been some research : " The best programmers are not marginally better than merely good ones .
They are an order of magnitude better , measured by whatever standard : conceptual creativity , speed , ingenuity of design , or problem-solving ability .
" --- Randall E. Stross ( quoted by Robert K. Weatherall " A Booming Market for New Graduates " \ _Engineers \ _ vol3 # 2 1997 April pg 11 ; quoted in Richard Ellis &amp; B. Lindsay Lowell 1999 January " Core Occupations of the US Information Technolgy Work-Force " ) " The computer field has [ in the past ] honored competence , content and creativity more than credentials .
" --- Clifford Adelman \ _Leading , Concurrent , or Lagging : The Knowledge Content of Computer Science in Higher Education and the Labor market \ _ 1997 pg 40 ( quoted in Richard Ellis &amp; B. Lindsay Lowell 1999 January " Core Occupations of the US Information Technolgy Work-Force " ) " One top-notch engineer is worth '300 times or more than the average ' , explains Alan Eustace , a Google vice president of engineering .
" " The best programmers on the team may be so much better than the rest that just a few of [ them ] can put out more than all the rest combined .
" --- Alistair Cockburn 2002 \ _Agile Software Development \ _ pg 61But , such researchers have noted , it 's the few people who know 10 or more programming languages who outshine the rest .
Another odd correlation with high productivity is having a background in music , not math or physics .
Scientists who can do a little programming are usually terrible at it ; their software is almost impossible to maintain .
But then how many 20 year olds know a dozen programming languages ?
And how many of the silver-backs have learned several additional programming languages in the last decade ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Any developer can tell you that not all C or PHP or Java programmers are created equal; some are vastly more productive or creative.
"There's been some research:"The best programmers are not marginally better than merely good ones.
They are an order of magnitude better, measured by whatever standard: conceptual creativity, speed, ingenuity of design, or problem-solving ability.
" --- Randall E. Stross (quoted by Robert K. Weatherall "A Booming Market for New Graduates" \_Engineers\_ vol3 #2 1997 April pg 11; quoted in Richard Ellis &amp; B. Lindsay Lowell 1999 January "Core Occupations of the US Information Technolgy Work-Force")"The computer field has [in the past] honored competence, content and creativity more than credentials.
" --- Clifford Adelman \_Leading, Concurrent, or Lagging: The Knowledge Content of Computer Science in Higher Education and the Labor market\_ 1997 pg 40 (quoted in Richard Ellis &amp; B. Lindsay Lowell 1999 January "Core Occupations of the US Information Technolgy Work-Force")"One top-notch engineer is worth '300 times or more than the average', explains Alan Eustace, a Google vice president of engineering.
""The best programmers on the team may be so much better than the rest that just a few of [them] can put out more than all the rest combined.
" --- Alistair Cockburn 2002 \_Agile Software Development\_ pg 61But, such researchers have noted, it's the few people who know 10 or more programming languages who outshine the rest.
Another odd correlation with high productivity is having a background in music, not math or physics.
Scientists who can do a little programming are usually terrible at it; their software is almost impossible to maintain.
But then how many 20 year olds know a dozen programming languages?
And how many of the silver-backs have learned several additional programming languages in the last decade?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31177036</id>
	<title>I walked away, and never regretted it</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265022840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was a programmer throughout my 20s and early 30s, then switched careers about 8 years ago (I'm 43).  I have never regretted the choice to change careers.</p><p>Among other things:</p><p>- I was tired of working extremely long hours while better-paid (and generally incompetent) managers went home at 5:00 p.m.</p><p>- I was tired of being forced to stick to deadlines that were so unreasonably short that I could never debug, test, or document my work appropriately.  It's hard to take pride in your work when you aren't allowed to do your best.  I even had one boss who forbade me from documenting my code, believe it or not - he thought it was a waste of time.</p><p>- I was tired of managers and salespeople making unrealistic promises at the last moment to customers, both internal and external, and then expecting me to work overnight or through the weekend to make it happen (with no additional compensation or perks, of course).</p><p>- I was tired of never seeing my friends and family because I was working 80+ hour weeks.</p><p>- I was tired of watching the good jobs get sent overseas to tech workers who often produced poor code.</p><p>- I was tired of having to job hunt so often because companies were "downsizing," going bankrupt, or being sucked dry by CEOs with inappropriately enormous salaries, perks, bonuses, and golden parachutes.</p><p>- I was tired of project managers (who had never written a line of code) assuming that programming was no different than sales work, leading them to insist on having 2 or 3 meetings a day.</p><p>I make a little less now than I did as a programmer (though not much less), work a 40 hour week, have a life, and program on the side for fun.  My technical skills opened up a lot of opportunities for me in my new profession, and I still get to keep my foot in the coding water.  I'm happier, healthier, and far less stressed now, and I have a good amount of leisure time to pursue my own interests and projects.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was a programmer throughout my 20s and early 30s , then switched careers about 8 years ago ( I 'm 43 ) .
I have never regretted the choice to change careers.Among other things : - I was tired of working extremely long hours while better-paid ( and generally incompetent ) managers went home at 5 : 00 p.m.- I was tired of being forced to stick to deadlines that were so unreasonably short that I could never debug , test , or document my work appropriately .
It 's hard to take pride in your work when you are n't allowed to do your best .
I even had one boss who forbade me from documenting my code , believe it or not - he thought it was a waste of time.- I was tired of managers and salespeople making unrealistic promises at the last moment to customers , both internal and external , and then expecting me to work overnight or through the weekend to make it happen ( with no additional compensation or perks , of course ) .- I was tired of never seeing my friends and family because I was working 80 + hour weeks.- I was tired of watching the good jobs get sent overseas to tech workers who often produced poor code.- I was tired of having to job hunt so often because companies were " downsizing , " going bankrupt , or being sucked dry by CEOs with inappropriately enormous salaries , perks , bonuses , and golden parachutes.- I was tired of project managers ( who had never written a line of code ) assuming that programming was no different than sales work , leading them to insist on having 2 or 3 meetings a day.I make a little less now than I did as a programmer ( though not much less ) , work a 40 hour week , have a life , and program on the side for fun .
My technical skills opened up a lot of opportunities for me in my new profession , and I still get to keep my foot in the coding water .
I 'm happier , healthier , and far less stressed now , and I have a good amount of leisure time to pursue my own interests and projects .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was a programmer throughout my 20s and early 30s, then switched careers about 8 years ago (I'm 43).
I have never regretted the choice to change careers.Among other things:- I was tired of working extremely long hours while better-paid (and generally incompetent) managers went home at 5:00 p.m.- I was tired of being forced to stick to deadlines that were so unreasonably short that I could never debug, test, or document my work appropriately.
It's hard to take pride in your work when you aren't allowed to do your best.
I even had one boss who forbade me from documenting my code, believe it or not - he thought it was a waste of time.- I was tired of managers and salespeople making unrealistic promises at the last moment to customers, both internal and external, and then expecting me to work overnight or through the weekend to make it happen (with no additional compensation or perks, of course).- I was tired of never seeing my friends and family because I was working 80+ hour weeks.- I was tired of watching the good jobs get sent overseas to tech workers who often produced poor code.- I was tired of having to job hunt so often because companies were "downsizing," going bankrupt, or being sucked dry by CEOs with inappropriately enormous salaries, perks, bonuses, and golden parachutes.- I was tired of project managers (who had never written a line of code) assuming that programming was no different than sales work, leading them to insist on having 2 or 3 meetings a day.I make a little less now than I did as a programmer (though not much less), work a 40 hour week, have a life, and program on the side for fun.
My technical skills opened up a lot of opportunities for me in my new profession, and I still get to keep my foot in the coding water.
I'm happier, healthier, and far less stressed now, and I have a good amount of leisure time to pursue my own interests and projects.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173944</id>
	<title>Only Show 10 Years Max on Resume</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265055120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>A resume doesn't have to date you. Anything you did more than 10 years ago is probably no longer relevant. I'm 39 and I've been making money from coding since I was 16... I am sick of programming... actually I was sick of programming 10 years ago, but it still pays the bills.

The best thing to involve yourself with is the stuff that can't easily be outsourced to India... e.g. iPhone software programming,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.NET programming.</htmltext>
<tokenext>A resume does n't have to date you .
Anything you did more than 10 years ago is probably no longer relevant .
I 'm 39 and I 've been making money from coding since I was 16... I am sick of programming... actually I was sick of programming 10 years ago , but it still pays the bills .
The best thing to involve yourself with is the stuff that ca n't easily be outsourced to India... e.g. iPhone software programming , .NET programming .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A resume doesn't have to date you.
Anything you did more than 10 years ago is probably no longer relevant.
I'm 39 and I've been making money from coding since I was 16... I am sick of programming... actually I was sick of programming 10 years ago, but it still pays the bills.
The best thing to involve yourself with is the stuff that can't easily be outsourced to India... e.g. iPhone software programming, .NET programming.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31174836</id>
	<title>Re:Obivous Answer</title>
	<author>cerberusss</author>
	<datestamp>1265014980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I'd consider getting a managing position as being demoted.</p></div><p>Does your wife agree?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd consider getting a managing position as being demoted.Does your wife agree ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd consider getting a managing position as being demoted.Does your wife agree?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173034</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171656</id>
	<title>"Elderly"?!?!?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265047980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Elderly?!?!? I'm 41, you insensitive clod!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Elderly ? ! ? ! ?
I 'm 41 , you insensitive clod !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Elderly?!?!?
I'm 41, you insensitive clod!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31174394</id>
	<title>Completely true</title>
	<author>GuerreroDelInterfaz</author>
	<datestamp>1265056620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm nearing 60 and have a vast experience programming all kinds of stuff, especially control systems, including satellite and other very critical ones, and the only reason I can keep programming is because I know obscure proprietary systems like AMX, Crestron, Alcorn McBride and so on. I often get offered system administration and similar jobs but programming in C, Java and so on never, ever. And it's not money as I'm ready to program for 1000 euros a month, even less than younger people.</p><p>As someone else has already pointed out, the problem is top management that, at least here in Spain, are completely ignorant of technological issues and believe everything they see in crappy movies. They are not even capable of using Internet: they have a secretary to do this for them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm nearing 60 and have a vast experience programming all kinds of stuff , especially control systems , including satellite and other very critical ones , and the only reason I can keep programming is because I know obscure proprietary systems like AMX , Crestron , Alcorn McBride and so on .
I often get offered system administration and similar jobs but programming in C , Java and so on never , ever .
And it 's not money as I 'm ready to program for 1000 euros a month , even less than younger people.As someone else has already pointed out , the problem is top management that , at least here in Spain , are completely ignorant of technological issues and believe everything they see in crappy movies .
They are not even capable of using Internet : they have a secretary to do this for them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm nearing 60 and have a vast experience programming all kinds of stuff, especially control systems, including satellite and other very critical ones, and the only reason I can keep programming is because I know obscure proprietary systems like AMX, Crestron, Alcorn McBride and so on.
I often get offered system administration and similar jobs but programming in C, Java and so on never, ever.
And it's not money as I'm ready to program for 1000 euros a month, even less than younger people.As someone else has already pointed out, the problem is top management that, at least here in Spain, are completely ignorant of technological issues and believe everything they see in crappy movies.
They are not even capable of using Internet: they have a secretary to do this for them.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173016</id>
	<title>It's a failure to keep up.</title>
	<author>tthomas48</author>
	<datestamp>1265051880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I see this with people my own age, and people just getting out of college. There are programmers who keep up with new technologies. Who are always experimenting in their free time. These people are always employed. Then there are people who learn one technology and then begin their slow descent into obsolescence. This seems to be the majority in computer science unfortunately and I've actually seen a few programmers whose refusal to learn new technologies had them exiting the profession before they hit thirty.</p><p>I worked with a programmer in his sixties two years ago who was doing all the latest Ajax/CSS/Java stuff. Sure he'd been a cobol programmer, and a C programmer, but he had learned the new dominant technologies and still had a job. I've seen plenty of discrimination in job interviews, but it's generally snobbery about preferring one degree over another, or one company over another. I've never seen "old" used as a reason.  That said, we don't call Cobol programmers in for interviews for Java jobs. I don't really think that's discrimination though.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I see this with people my own age , and people just getting out of college .
There are programmers who keep up with new technologies .
Who are always experimenting in their free time .
These people are always employed .
Then there are people who learn one technology and then begin their slow descent into obsolescence .
This seems to be the majority in computer science unfortunately and I 've actually seen a few programmers whose refusal to learn new technologies had them exiting the profession before they hit thirty.I worked with a programmer in his sixties two years ago who was doing all the latest Ajax/CSS/Java stuff .
Sure he 'd been a cobol programmer , and a C programmer , but he had learned the new dominant technologies and still had a job .
I 've seen plenty of discrimination in job interviews , but it 's generally snobbery about preferring one degree over another , or one company over another .
I 've never seen " old " used as a reason .
That said , we do n't call Cobol programmers in for interviews for Java jobs .
I do n't really think that 's discrimination though .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I see this with people my own age, and people just getting out of college.
There are programmers who keep up with new technologies.
Who are always experimenting in their free time.
These people are always employed.
Then there are people who learn one technology and then begin their slow descent into obsolescence.
This seems to be the majority in computer science unfortunately and I've actually seen a few programmers whose refusal to learn new technologies had them exiting the profession before they hit thirty.I worked with a programmer in his sixties two years ago who was doing all the latest Ajax/CSS/Java stuff.
Sure he'd been a cobol programmer, and a C programmer, but he had learned the new dominant technologies and still had a job.
I've seen plenty of discrimination in job interviews, but it's generally snobbery about preferring one degree over another, or one company over another.
I've never seen "old" used as a reason.
That said, we don't call Cobol programmers in for interviews for Java jobs.
I don't really think that's discrimination though.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172116</id>
	<title>Age Test</title>
	<author>Sponge Bath</author>
	<datestamp>1265049240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you read this article and are thinking about your career, then you are young. If you are thinking about a naked Jennifer Agutter, then you are old.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you read this article and are thinking about your career , then you are young .
If you are thinking about a naked Jennifer Agutter , then you are old .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you read this article and are thinking about your career, then you are young.
If you are thinking about a naked Jennifer Agutter, then you are old.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31175142</id>
	<title>Re:Age Test</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265015940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>If you read this article and are thinking about your career, then you are young. If you are thinking about a naked Jennifer Agutter, then you are old.</p></div><p>wow, she was bonerific back in the day</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you read this article and are thinking about your career , then you are young .
If you are thinking about a naked Jennifer Agutter , then you are old.wow , she was bonerific back in the day</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you read this article and are thinking about your career, then you are young.
If you are thinking about a naked Jennifer Agutter, then you are old.wow, she was bonerific back in the day
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172116</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31184340</id>
	<title>Your stance is often determined by your age</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266508260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My guess is that for the most part people will side with their own age group, by rule of perspective.</p><p>Obviously most people in their 40's (and 50's) will talk about the merits of experience. This is no different than your grandfather saying that "They don't make 'em like they used to" or "In my day<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...". Sometimes they are right<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... sometimes they are wrong. Sometimes an e-mail is better than a handshake. Often, the young programmer is not as naive as the older programmer would like to fantasize is the case.</p><p>On the flip side, younger people are quick to discredit experience, and quick to assume that as a programmer gets older they somehow lose IQ. More often than not, skills will erode over time because a developer gets less time to hone his skill, because they spend more time managing, or in meetings, or dealing with integration/support/politics. They spend all of their working in the present language, with no time to learn the next language that kids in college are learning, and so forth.</p><p>In an attempt to be objective, and going under the assumption that actual talent and IQ are somewhat age independent, I feel that the general breakdown is as follows:</p><p>More experienced programmers and architects are probably well versed in office politics, commonly made technology mistakes, best language-independent practices and so forth. On the down side they are probably more reluctant to work crazy hours (family), less flexible when it comes to constant change, and often caught up in their old ways (especially if that way has been successful in the past). There are exceptions to the rules, of course, but for the most part the older programmers are heavy on experience, and weaker on the latest technologies. In some cases, the latest technologies are a jump the older programmer is unable to make. I have seen a lot of this with programmers who are scripters/COBOL/VB/SQL type people who are unable to grasp and leverage OOP concepts. Older programmers have often lost the will to care about doing something the best way possible, they just want to do it the way they know will work and not fight the man.</p><p>Younger programmers are of course less experienced, but they tend to have more energy, are often more willing to go against the grain of what others will claim is "just the way it is" (which can be positive or negative), more willing to adapt or leverage newer technologies. The downside is that they have a lot of mistakes left to make in regards to office politics, best practices and lack familiarity with legacy technology. They often spend too much time worrying about the best technology to leverage, and not enough time about whether or not anyone cares or if in this particular case it matters.</p><p>The reality is that just as with sports, a mixture of experienced veterans and energetic youngsters is often the best balance for productivity. The younger players can bring energy and new ideas to the table, while the experienced guys can bring wisdom and best practices to the table. Symbiotic.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My guess is that for the most part people will side with their own age group , by rule of perspective.Obviously most people in their 40 's ( and 50 's ) will talk about the merits of experience .
This is no different than your grandfather saying that " They do n't make 'em like they used to " or " In my day ... " .
Sometimes they are right ... sometimes they are wrong .
Sometimes an e-mail is better than a handshake .
Often , the young programmer is not as naive as the older programmer would like to fantasize is the case.On the flip side , younger people are quick to discredit experience , and quick to assume that as a programmer gets older they somehow lose IQ .
More often than not , skills will erode over time because a developer gets less time to hone his skill , because they spend more time managing , or in meetings , or dealing with integration/support/politics .
They spend all of their working in the present language , with no time to learn the next language that kids in college are learning , and so forth.In an attempt to be objective , and going under the assumption that actual talent and IQ are somewhat age independent , I feel that the general breakdown is as follows : More experienced programmers and architects are probably well versed in office politics , commonly made technology mistakes , best language-independent practices and so forth .
On the down side they are probably more reluctant to work crazy hours ( family ) , less flexible when it comes to constant change , and often caught up in their old ways ( especially if that way has been successful in the past ) .
There are exceptions to the rules , of course , but for the most part the older programmers are heavy on experience , and weaker on the latest technologies .
In some cases , the latest technologies are a jump the older programmer is unable to make .
I have seen a lot of this with programmers who are scripters/COBOL/VB/SQL type people who are unable to grasp and leverage OOP concepts .
Older programmers have often lost the will to care about doing something the best way possible , they just want to do it the way they know will work and not fight the man.Younger programmers are of course less experienced , but they tend to have more energy , are often more willing to go against the grain of what others will claim is " just the way it is " ( which can be positive or negative ) , more willing to adapt or leverage newer technologies .
The downside is that they have a lot of mistakes left to make in regards to office politics , best practices and lack familiarity with legacy technology .
They often spend too much time worrying about the best technology to leverage , and not enough time about whether or not anyone cares or if in this particular case it matters.The reality is that just as with sports , a mixture of experienced veterans and energetic youngsters is often the best balance for productivity .
The younger players can bring energy and new ideas to the table , while the experienced guys can bring wisdom and best practices to the table .
Symbiotic .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My guess is that for the most part people will side with their own age group, by rule of perspective.Obviously most people in their 40's (and 50's) will talk about the merits of experience.
This is no different than your grandfather saying that "They don't make 'em like they used to" or "In my day ...".
Sometimes they are right ... sometimes they are wrong.
Sometimes an e-mail is better than a handshake.
Often, the young programmer is not as naive as the older programmer would like to fantasize is the case.On the flip side, younger people are quick to discredit experience, and quick to assume that as a programmer gets older they somehow lose IQ.
More often than not, skills will erode over time because a developer gets less time to hone his skill, because they spend more time managing, or in meetings, or dealing with integration/support/politics.
They spend all of their working in the present language, with no time to learn the next language that kids in college are learning, and so forth.In an attempt to be objective, and going under the assumption that actual talent and IQ are somewhat age independent, I feel that the general breakdown is as follows:More experienced programmers and architects are probably well versed in office politics, commonly made technology mistakes, best language-independent practices and so forth.
On the down side they are probably more reluctant to work crazy hours (family), less flexible when it comes to constant change, and often caught up in their old ways (especially if that way has been successful in the past).
There are exceptions to the rules, of course, but for the most part the older programmers are heavy on experience, and weaker on the latest technologies.
In some cases, the latest technologies are a jump the older programmer is unable to make.
I have seen a lot of this with programmers who are scripters/COBOL/VB/SQL type people who are unable to grasp and leverage OOP concepts.
Older programmers have often lost the will to care about doing something the best way possible, they just want to do it the way they know will work and not fight the man.Younger programmers are of course less experienced, but they tend to have more energy, are often more willing to go against the grain of what others will claim is "just the way it is" (which can be positive or negative), more willing to adapt or leverage newer technologies.
The downside is that they have a lot of mistakes left to make in regards to office politics, best practices and lack familiarity with legacy technology.
They often spend too much time worrying about the best technology to leverage, and not enough time about whether or not anyone cares or if in this particular case it matters.The reality is that just as with sports, a mixture of experienced veterans and energetic youngsters is often the best balance for productivity.
The younger players can bring energy and new ideas to the table, while the experienced guys can bring wisdom and best practices to the table.
Symbiotic.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173116</id>
	<title>Re:A question for all you experienced types out th</title>
	<author>codepunk</author>
	<datestamp>1265052240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would second the python vote, all around easy, pleasant,  elegant language that runs on just about everything.  I know<br>every single major language but python is usually the first thing I grab for in most situations.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would second the python vote , all around easy , pleasant , elegant language that runs on just about everything .
I knowevery single major language but python is usually the first thing I grab for in most situations .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would second the python vote, all around easy, pleasant,  elegant language that runs on just about everything.
I knowevery single major language but python is usually the first thing I grab for in most situations.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172812</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172470</id>
	<title>lot of 50-something developers in my company</title>
	<author>peter303</author>
	<datestamp>1265050380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Its in the energy industry where many of the developers have domain-knowledge degrees like geology. The management attempted offshoring a few years ago.  But it was an utter failure due to the lack of domain-knowledge developers. China and India college training is too specialized.
<br> <br>
I've seen similar issues in vertical industries like aerospace, utilities, oil companies which are not attractive to recent college graduates. Boomer dominate.  This is becoming an issue as boomers retire.  But I call it "job security".
<br> <br>
I'd say the only drawback is you dont see people putting in more than 50-hour weeks at the most.  This would be suicide for a gamer or F/X company.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Its in the energy industry where many of the developers have domain-knowledge degrees like geology .
The management attempted offshoring a few years ago .
But it was an utter failure due to the lack of domain-knowledge developers .
China and India college training is too specialized .
I 've seen similar issues in vertical industries like aerospace , utilities , oil companies which are not attractive to recent college graduates .
Boomer dominate .
This is becoming an issue as boomers retire .
But I call it " job security " .
I 'd say the only drawback is you dont see people putting in more than 50-hour weeks at the most .
This would be suicide for a gamer or F/X company .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Its in the energy industry where many of the developers have domain-knowledge degrees like geology.
The management attempted offshoring a few years ago.
But it was an utter failure due to the lack of domain-knowledge developers.
China and India college training is too specialized.
I've seen similar issues in vertical industries like aerospace, utilities, oil companies which are not attractive to recent college graduates.
Boomer dominate.
This is becoming an issue as boomers retire.
But I call it "job security".
I'd say the only drawback is you dont see people putting in more than 50-hour weeks at the most.
This would be suicide for a gamer or F/X company.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172034</id>
	<title>Carousel is a lie!!</title>
	<author>lord\_mike</author>
	<datestamp>1265049000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Lifeclocks are a lie!  You can't renew!  There is no sanctuary!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Lifeclocks are a lie !
You ca n't renew !
There is no sanctuary !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Lifeclocks are a lie!
You can't renew!
There is no sanctuary!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31193996</id>
	<title>HR drones....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266502080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>4675636b696e67206d6f726f6e7321</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>4675636b696e67206d6f726f6e7321</tokentext>
<sentencetext>4675636b696e67206d6f726f6e7321</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31176842</id>
	<title>Crapware</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265022000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is one of the reasons for so much crappy software these days, good experienced programmers not working while new inexperienced programmers sometimes working for dirt in a third world country doing the bulk of the work, working long hours, much like what happened to tech support and all customer support in the U.S.  People reading from scripts or stealing code who have no real clue how to do it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is one of the reasons for so much crappy software these days , good experienced programmers not working while new inexperienced programmers sometimes working for dirt in a third world country doing the bulk of the work , working long hours , much like what happened to tech support and all customer support in the U.S. People reading from scripts or stealing code who have no real clue how to do it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is one of the reasons for so much crappy software these days, good experienced programmers not working while new inexperienced programmers sometimes working for dirt in a third world country doing the bulk of the work, working long hours, much like what happened to tech support and all customer support in the U.S.  People reading from scripts or stealing code who have no real clue how to do it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31179590</id>
	<title>"IT workforce" != developers</title>
	<author>markus o'farkus</author>
	<datestamp>1265038440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Good article, but it does one thing totally wrong in the title and throughout the article.  Something thankfully the Slashdot title and blurb actually gets right.  It's not a big deal, but I get tired of reading articles about "tech workers" and "IT workers" when they are about programmers.  I sure a shit would love to know how this stuff applies to Admin, tech support, sales engineers, consultants, etc.</p><p>Don't get me wrong it's a minor--and essentially off-topic--point, but the article is riddled with phrases that equate IT with software development.  No offense to programmers, I love you guys too, but damn it's annoying.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Good article , but it does one thing totally wrong in the title and throughout the article .
Something thankfully the Slashdot title and blurb actually gets right .
It 's not a big deal , but I get tired of reading articles about " tech workers " and " IT workers " when they are about programmers .
I sure a shit would love to know how this stuff applies to Admin , tech support , sales engineers , consultants , etc.Do n't get me wrong it 's a minor--and essentially off-topic--point , but the article is riddled with phrases that equate IT with software development .
No offense to programmers , I love you guys too , but damn it 's annoying .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Good article, but it does one thing totally wrong in the title and throughout the article.
Something thankfully the Slashdot title and blurb actually gets right.
It's not a big deal, but I get tired of reading articles about "tech workers" and "IT workers" when they are about programmers.
I sure a shit would love to know how this stuff applies to Admin, tech support, sales engineers, consultants, etc.Don't get me wrong it's a minor--and essentially off-topic--point, but the article is riddled with phrases that equate IT with software development.
No offense to programmers, I love you guys too, but damn it's annoying.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31179536</id>
	<title>Re:Obivous Answer</title>
	<author>ConceptJunkie</author>
	<datestamp>1265037960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Fourty-year-olds in programming now grew up on punch-cards, BASIC, and COBOL.</i></p><p>Are you talking to us from 1993?  I'm almost 45.  My first job was programming C and shortly after that I moved on to C++, which is mostly what I've written in my career.</p><p>A computer from 20 years ago would likely be running Windows 3, and would be easily recognizable to a modern user minus its lack of a web browser... and the browsers became common not too long after.</p><p>Software development will always keep changing.  Competent people will be able to change right along with it and incompetent people won't.  Of course, since too many managers are happy to commoditize employees and ignore any real metrics on their ability to get things done well, I imagine that software development will get worse, not better.  This isn't a function of the programmers so much as it is the fact that we as a society are losing the ability to manage.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Fourty-year-olds in programming now grew up on punch-cards , BASIC , and COBOL.Are you talking to us from 1993 ?
I 'm almost 45 .
My first job was programming C and shortly after that I moved on to C + + , which is mostly what I 've written in my career.A computer from 20 years ago would likely be running Windows 3 , and would be easily recognizable to a modern user minus its lack of a web browser... and the browsers became common not too long after.Software development will always keep changing .
Competent people will be able to change right along with it and incompetent people wo n't .
Of course , since too many managers are happy to commoditize employees and ignore any real metrics on their ability to get things done well , I imagine that software development will get worse , not better .
This is n't a function of the programmers so much as it is the fact that we as a society are losing the ability to manage .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Fourty-year-olds in programming now grew up on punch-cards, BASIC, and COBOL.Are you talking to us from 1993?
I'm almost 45.
My first job was programming C and shortly after that I moved on to C++, which is mostly what I've written in my career.A computer from 20 years ago would likely be running Windows 3, and would be easily recognizable to a modern user minus its lack of a web browser... and the browsers became common not too long after.Software development will always keep changing.
Competent people will be able to change right along with it and incompetent people won't.
Of course, since too many managers are happy to commoditize employees and ignore any real metrics on their ability to get things done well, I imagine that software development will get worse, not better.
This isn't a function of the programmers so much as it is the fact that we as a society are losing the ability to manage.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31176086</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31178132</id>
	<title>Re:Obivous Answer</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265027520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Lines of code? I only ever write one per program. No carriage returns for me, thank you.</p></div></blockquote><p>No carriage returns?  I use lots of carriage returns, just no line feeds.  They can't figure out why it takes me so long to write that one short line of code, but it sure does a lot.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Lines of code ?
I only ever write one per program .
No carriage returns for me , thank you.No carriage returns ?
I use lots of carriage returns , just no line feeds .
They ca n't figure out why it takes me so long to write that one short line of code , but it sure does a lot .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Lines of code?
I only ever write one per program.
No carriage returns for me, thank you.No carriage returns?
I use lots of carriage returns, just no line feeds.
They can't figure out why it takes me so long to write that one short line of code, but it sure does a lot.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173706</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31177568</id>
	<title>Re:Age Test</title>
	<author>MoriT</author>
	<datestamp>1265024940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Apparently only straight men and lesbians with a thing for accents are old. Good to know!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Apparently only straight men and lesbians with a thing for accents are old .
Good to know !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Apparently only straight men and lesbians with a thing for accents are old.
Good to know!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172116</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172058</id>
	<title>Complete bullshit</title>
	<author>Wee</author>
	<datestamp>1265049120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The article is utter crap.  People look for experience first. In fact, I'd say new college grads are discriminated against.
<br> <br>

-B</htmltext>
<tokenext>The article is utter crap .
People look for experience first .
In fact , I 'd say new college grads are discriminated against .
-B</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The article is utter crap.
People look for experience first.
In fact, I'd say new college grads are discriminated against.
-B</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171876</id>
	<title>KMA whipper snappers</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265048520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm in my mid-40s and my buddy at work is in his 50s. We run circles around little whipper snappers from R&amp;D and standards to best practices, hands down programming, etc. To actually find someone young that has a real CompSci degree (MBA and MIS doesn't count), real experience or even a fundamental understanding of OOP, RDBMS design, security, static code analysis, etc. is far and few between. Keep on hiring cheap labour (Ranjit and Chad from Tech &amp; Talk) and we'll keep on debugging and fixing their code!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm in my mid-40s and my buddy at work is in his 50s .
We run circles around little whipper snappers from R&amp;D and standards to best practices , hands down programming , etc .
To actually find someone young that has a real CompSci degree ( MBA and MIS does n't count ) , real experience or even a fundamental understanding of OOP , RDBMS design , security , static code analysis , etc .
is far and few between .
Keep on hiring cheap labour ( Ranjit and Chad from Tech &amp; Talk ) and we 'll keep on debugging and fixing their code !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm in my mid-40s and my buddy at work is in his 50s.
We run circles around little whipper snappers from R&amp;D and standards to best practices, hands down programming, etc.
To actually find someone young that has a real CompSci degree (MBA and MIS doesn't count), real experience or even a fundamental understanding of OOP, RDBMS design, security, static code analysis, etc.
is far and few between.
Keep on hiring cheap labour (Ranjit and Chad from Tech &amp; Talk) and we'll keep on debugging and fixing their code!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31177246</id>
	<title>Re:Youthful arrogance....</title>
	<author>Lars512</author>
	<datestamp>1265023800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Just a few days ago there was a post right here on Slashdot asking how easy it was to cheat in CS.  Based on the forum discussions, a significant number of students today get programming degrees and can't produce a lick of decent code.</p></div><p>This has certainly been my experience. I don't know how they graduate, but they do, just, every time. I never heard of someone who didn't graduate because they couldn't code. Somehow they fumble their way through every project and still pass. I'd say maybe 30\% of graduates of the degree I'm thinking of could not write a small program correctly in their language of their choice in any reasonable time. That said, employers aren't hiring people who just pass fresh out of uni, so it's not really a problem for the job market. There are also plenty of good, even excellent, programmers who come out of the degree. I'd much prefer to tighten things up though, so the degree itself was worth more.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Just a few days ago there was a post right here on Slashdot asking how easy it was to cheat in CS .
Based on the forum discussions , a significant number of students today get programming degrees and ca n't produce a lick of decent code.This has certainly been my experience .
I do n't know how they graduate , but they do , just , every time .
I never heard of someone who did n't graduate because they could n't code .
Somehow they fumble their way through every project and still pass .
I 'd say maybe 30 \ % of graduates of the degree I 'm thinking of could not write a small program correctly in their language of their choice in any reasonable time .
That said , employers are n't hiring people who just pass fresh out of uni , so it 's not really a problem for the job market .
There are also plenty of good , even excellent , programmers who come out of the degree .
I 'd much prefer to tighten things up though , so the degree itself was worth more .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just a few days ago there was a post right here on Slashdot asking how easy it was to cheat in CS.
Based on the forum discussions, a significant number of students today get programming degrees and can't produce a lick of decent code.This has certainly been my experience.
I don't know how they graduate, but they do, just, every time.
I never heard of someone who didn't graduate because they couldn't code.
Somehow they fumble their way through every project and still pass.
I'd say maybe 30\% of graduates of the degree I'm thinking of could not write a small program correctly in their language of their choice in any reasonable time.
That said, employers aren't hiring people who just pass fresh out of uni, so it's not really a problem for the job market.
There are also plenty of good, even excellent, programmers who come out of the degree.
I'd much prefer to tighten things up though, so the degree itself was worth more.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172100</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31181654</id>
	<title>Re:Kids Today.... eat shit and cry...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266486960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What a bunch of yellow shitting, lame ass cry baby pussies. .</p><p>I started out writing spacecraft command and control software for fuckin  machines that did NOT  even have hardware multiply and divide i9nstructions -NASA was too fuckin cheap ass to buy it!!  Computer time was FOR 2 hours  A DAY  AT  2AM  And I had to actually graduate from a university thar didn't let  JUST any moron attend computer classes.</p><p>On the other hand, we stayed up drinking and doing drugs, partied with the mission controllers and some of us lucky bastards got to bone the female MC's.... like Norma the hot ass married chick with big tits!</p><p>But ya know what's the best part is</p><p>after 35 yeas as a pencil neck software engineering geek I have never worked on day in "IT" job sucking some clerks dick like most of you poor pathetic schmucks..... HEH, HEH, LOL...   ROFLMAO</p><p>best regards,</p><p>buck - an unemployable 57 yr old  fart computer geek and perverted old fuck</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What a bunch of yellow shitting , lame ass cry baby pussies .
.I started out writing spacecraft command and control software for fuckin machines that did NOT even have hardware multiply and divide i9nstructions -NASA was too fuckin cheap ass to buy it ! !
Computer time was FOR 2 hours A DAY AT 2AM And I had to actually graduate from a university thar did n't let JUST any moron attend computer classes.On the other hand , we stayed up drinking and doing drugs , partied with the mission controllers and some of us lucky bastards got to bone the female MC 's.... like Norma the hot ass married chick with big tits ! But ya know what 's the best part isafter 35 yeas as a pencil neck software engineering geek I have never worked on day in " IT " job sucking some clerks dick like most of you poor pathetic schmucks..... HEH , HEH , LOL... ROFLMAObest regards,buck - an unemployable 57 yr old fart computer geek and perverted old fuck</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What a bunch of yellow shitting, lame ass cry baby pussies.
.I started out writing spacecraft command and control software for fuckin  machines that did NOT  even have hardware multiply and divide i9nstructions -NASA was too fuckin cheap ass to buy it!!
Computer time was FOR 2 hours  A DAY  AT  2AM  And I had to actually graduate from a university thar didn't let  JUST any moron attend computer classes.On the other hand, we stayed up drinking and doing drugs, partied with the mission controllers and some of us lucky bastards got to bone the female MC's.... like Norma the hot ass married chick with big tits!But ya know what's the best part isafter 35 yeas as a pencil neck software engineering geek I have never worked on day in "IT" job sucking some clerks dick like most of you poor pathetic schmucks..... HEH, HEH, LOL...   ROFLMAObest regards,buck - an unemployable 57 yr old  fart computer geek and perverted old fuck</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171952</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31176028</id>
	<title>Can you spell</title>
	<author>arnwald</author>
	<datestamp>1265018880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>SAP ?</p><p>T.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>SAP ? T .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>SAP ?T.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173454</id>
	<title>RE: Developers: "Logan's Run" Syndrome In Programm</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265053380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>57 years old...</p><p>35 years, and NO Cobol (basic, assembler, Fortran, C, C++ C#, VB.NET, SQL(Oracle/SQL Server), Clipper, dBase, Windows, Mac, Unix/Linux,  et...). I'm the guy you call when there is no one else to call.</p><p>I've been through the discrimination thing.</p><p>So, they can hire all of the 'young guns' they want. When they screw it up they can then hire me as a consultant, pay the big bucks, and get it straightened out.</p><p>Yeah, I am that good.</p><p>Most managers just don't understand. You either pay now or pay latter. I don't care; they will pay me sooner or later...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>57 years old...35 years , and NO Cobol ( basic , assembler , Fortran , C , C + + C # , VB.NET , SQL ( Oracle/SQL Server ) , Clipper , dBase , Windows , Mac , Unix/Linux , et... ) .
I 'm the guy you call when there is no one else to call.I 've been through the discrimination thing.So , they can hire all of the 'young guns ' they want .
When they screw it up they can then hire me as a consultant , pay the big bucks , and get it straightened out.Yeah , I am that good.Most managers just do n't understand .
You either pay now or pay latter .
I do n't care ; they will pay me sooner or later.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>57 years old...35 years, and NO Cobol (basic, assembler, Fortran, C, C++ C#, VB.NET, SQL(Oracle/SQL Server), Clipper, dBase, Windows, Mac, Unix/Linux,  et...).
I'm the guy you call when there is no one else to call.I've been through the discrimination thing.So, they can hire all of the 'young guns' they want.
When they screw it up they can then hire me as a consultant, pay the big bucks, and get it straightened out.Yeah, I am that good.Most managers just don't understand.
You either pay now or pay latter.
I don't care; they will pay me sooner or later...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171694</id>
	<title>Yes and No</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265048040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have no idea if I'm an outlier, but with a blind preference for intellectual depth, rigor, and creativity, I tend to see what I figured was normal: more experienced candidates often come out ahead. Not always, but often. More experience unsurpisingly equals more age. The best are often bringing decades of experience, MA or PhD level credentials, and the ineffable things that come from having been there and done that in a lot of different trenches. They often cost more (though not all that much more), and they're worth it.</p><p>I know the corporate world at large has this patrician idea about pay related to seniority - whereas I come from the pay-for-value mindset. There is a good observation in the article about older folks making more and therefore being victims of cost cutting. I'm sure this happens as well, but in my world the observation is meaningless. A senior software engineer will get a good salary - more than enough to support an upper middle-class lifestyle (albeit not at the level of an attorney or an anesthesiologist), regardless of their age. If they ask for too much, they will be unemployed; if they tire of unemployment, they bring their compensation demands back in line with their value. I find most people have a very good grasp of the labor market, especially with the advent of widely available salary suvery data.</p><p>I have a couple of friends in their 50's who joke about becoming obsolete. I associate this with actually getting tired of keeping up with an industry that reinvintents itself so often, and therefore, not keeping up. There's a trap there, too: a kind of local maxima where, for a while, being an expert in Cobol or IBM mainframes is not only easier than learning Java, but will pay more and more, as you become more and more rare. Until one day you look for your next job and it just... isn't there.</p><p>Historically IT has suffered from a lack of technical depth at the top. Companies wanted wise old hands with management experience in charge, even if those wise old hands needed an assistant to print their emails every day (true story, multiple companies). As the next generation rises through the ranks, you will have more middle management, SVP, and ultimately COO, CEO, etc types that have real first-hand knowledge of technology. Eventually the corporate world will lose some of its notortious and costly blindness towards talent, and both hiring and strategy will become more objective and less bullshit-driven.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have no idea if I 'm an outlier , but with a blind preference for intellectual depth , rigor , and creativity , I tend to see what I figured was normal : more experienced candidates often come out ahead .
Not always , but often .
More experience unsurpisingly equals more age .
The best are often bringing decades of experience , MA or PhD level credentials , and the ineffable things that come from having been there and done that in a lot of different trenches .
They often cost more ( though not all that much more ) , and they 're worth it.I know the corporate world at large has this patrician idea about pay related to seniority - whereas I come from the pay-for-value mindset .
There is a good observation in the article about older folks making more and therefore being victims of cost cutting .
I 'm sure this happens as well , but in my world the observation is meaningless .
A senior software engineer will get a good salary - more than enough to support an upper middle-class lifestyle ( albeit not at the level of an attorney or an anesthesiologist ) , regardless of their age .
If they ask for too much , they will be unemployed ; if they tire of unemployment , they bring their compensation demands back in line with their value .
I find most people have a very good grasp of the labor market , especially with the advent of widely available salary suvery data.I have a couple of friends in their 50 's who joke about becoming obsolete .
I associate this with actually getting tired of keeping up with an industry that reinvintents itself so often , and therefore , not keeping up .
There 's a trap there , too : a kind of local maxima where , for a while , being an expert in Cobol or IBM mainframes is not only easier than learning Java , but will pay more and more , as you become more and more rare .
Until one day you look for your next job and it just... is n't there.Historically IT has suffered from a lack of technical depth at the top .
Companies wanted wise old hands with management experience in charge , even if those wise old hands needed an assistant to print their emails every day ( true story , multiple companies ) .
As the next generation rises through the ranks , you will have more middle management , SVP , and ultimately COO , CEO , etc types that have real first-hand knowledge of technology .
Eventually the corporate world will lose some of its notortious and costly blindness towards talent , and both hiring and strategy will become more objective and less bullshit-driven .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have no idea if I'm an outlier, but with a blind preference for intellectual depth, rigor, and creativity, I tend to see what I figured was normal: more experienced candidates often come out ahead.
Not always, but often.
More experience unsurpisingly equals more age.
The best are often bringing decades of experience, MA or PhD level credentials, and the ineffable things that come from having been there and done that in a lot of different trenches.
They often cost more (though not all that much more), and they're worth it.I know the corporate world at large has this patrician idea about pay related to seniority - whereas I come from the pay-for-value mindset.
There is a good observation in the article about older folks making more and therefore being victims of cost cutting.
I'm sure this happens as well, but in my world the observation is meaningless.
A senior software engineer will get a good salary - more than enough to support an upper middle-class lifestyle (albeit not at the level of an attorney or an anesthesiologist), regardless of their age.
If they ask for too much, they will be unemployed; if they tire of unemployment, they bring their compensation demands back in line with their value.
I find most people have a very good grasp of the labor market, especially with the advent of widely available salary suvery data.I have a couple of friends in their 50's who joke about becoming obsolete.
I associate this with actually getting tired of keeping up with an industry that reinvintents itself so often, and therefore, not keeping up.
There's a trap there, too: a kind of local maxima where, for a while, being an expert in Cobol or IBM mainframes is not only easier than learning Java, but will pay more and more, as you become more and more rare.
Until one day you look for your next job and it just... isn't there.Historically IT has suffered from a lack of technical depth at the top.
Companies wanted wise old hands with management experience in charge, even if those wise old hands needed an assistant to print their emails every day (true story, multiple companies).
As the next generation rises through the ranks, you will have more middle management, SVP, and ultimately COO, CEO, etc types that have real first-hand knowledge of technology.
Eventually the corporate world will lose some of its notortious and costly blindness towards talent, and both hiring and strategy will become more objective and less bullshit-driven.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31180206</id>
	<title>Re:Age Test</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265044260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>hmm.  I've never heard of Jennifer Agutter.  Does that make me young?<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)  I hope so.  I started programming in Algol 68, then IBM 1130 Assembler and FORTRAN IV, then APL and Pascal, a bit of shell, a while in management and consulting and startups, then started with PHP in 1995 or 1996.  Now I work mostly in PHP and Bash, and I'm teaching myself Erlang.  I was there when my Uni went from 110 baud KSR33s to 300 baud Decwriter terminals - woot!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>hmm .
I 've never heard of Jennifer Agutter .
Does that make me young ?
: ) I hope so .
I started programming in Algol 68 , then IBM 1130 Assembler and FORTRAN IV , then APL and Pascal , a bit of shell , a while in management and consulting and startups , then started with PHP in 1995 or 1996 .
Now I work mostly in PHP and Bash , and I 'm teaching myself Erlang .
I was there when my Uni went from 110 baud KSR33s to 300 baud Decwriter terminals - woot !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>hmm.
I've never heard of Jennifer Agutter.
Does that make me young?
:)  I hope so.
I started programming in Algol 68, then IBM 1130 Assembler and FORTRAN IV, then APL and Pascal, a bit of shell, a while in management and consulting and startups, then started with PHP in 1995 or 1996.
Now I work mostly in PHP and Bash, and I'm teaching myself Erlang.
I was there when my Uni went from 110 baud KSR33s to 300 baud Decwriter terminals - woot!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172116</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172300</id>
	<title>Re:Obivous Answer</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265049840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was about to say that.</p><p>I see it amongst my peers. Many started out as programmers and are now "elevated" beyond that "grunt work" of creating code. They move towards management positions where they are no longer considered programmers.</p><p>I tried. I am no manager. Either let me code or send me to the carousel.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was about to say that.I see it amongst my peers .
Many started out as programmers and are now " elevated " beyond that " grunt work " of creating code .
They move towards management positions where they are no longer considered programmers.I tried .
I am no manager .
Either let me code or send me to the carousel .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was about to say that.I see it amongst my peers.
Many started out as programmers and are now "elevated" beyond that "grunt work" of creating code.
They move towards management positions where they are no longer considered programmers.I tried.
I am no manager.
Either let me code or send me to the carousel.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171678</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171964</id>
	<title>I don't think experience is always better in CS</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265048820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, fresh inexperienced developers aren't always gonna do things the best way but I've seen a fair amount of dogmatic older developers who insist on using old archaic non-type safe methods and languages just because "that's the way they've done it for 20 years".  Sometimes is takes fresh minds to mix up the status quo and provide better solutions using newer and better technologies.</p><p>So suck it up, Grandpa.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , fresh inexperienced developers are n't always gon na do things the best way but I 've seen a fair amount of dogmatic older developers who insist on using old archaic non-type safe methods and languages just because " that 's the way they 've done it for 20 years " .
Sometimes is takes fresh minds to mix up the status quo and provide better solutions using newer and better technologies.So suck it up , Grandpa .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, fresh inexperienced developers aren't always gonna do things the best way but I've seen a fair amount of dogmatic older developers who insist on using old archaic non-type safe methods and languages just because "that's the way they've done it for 20 years".
Sometimes is takes fresh minds to mix up the status quo and provide better solutions using newer and better technologies.So suck it up, Grandpa.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31176300</id>
	<title>Programmers over 50 can be a liability</title>
	<author>wienerschnizzel</author>
	<datestamp>1265019840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>People tend to cling to their old habits. In the world of programming it means clinging to outdated approaches to coding. Throughout my career I met a bunch of 45+ old programmers that were all hard-working professionals producing reliable and efficient applications (or components). Most of them, however, (80-90\%) never adopted modern ways of software development (and are even proud of it). They do a lot of unnecessary low-level code (instead of ready-made libs and technologies) and essentially use procedural coding thinly coated by class definitions instead of a true OOP (object-oriented programming) approach. <br> <br>

This approach generally works well for small projects, however the bigger the project is the more problems outdated coding creates. There are vast differences in the quality of programmers in the big projects and the more cryptic your code is (even though it's crystal clear from the 80's coding style view) the more problems it's going to generate. <br> <br>

IMO the biggest advantage of OOP is that the structure of the code can (and should) mirror the structure of the problem it's trying to solve. In a good OOP design, even an inexperience programmer should be able to understand what the code is doing just by reading the names of the classes, their interfaces and the relations between them. A good 30-something yo developer usually does this kind of design. A 50 yo usually doesn't. In a project with 150 developers with the usual workforce fluctuation throughout the years where incremental versions are being released, the original code of old-style programmers (that may not be at the company anymore) can seriously affect development times and the overall quality of the system developed. <br> <br>

Ironically, the other extreme with the same result is a 30 yo C++ guru who by overusing operator overloads, custom manipulators, templates and macros, essentially creates a new programming language making it impossible to decipher in the code of the main app.</htmltext>
<tokenext>People tend to cling to their old habits .
In the world of programming it means clinging to outdated approaches to coding .
Throughout my career I met a bunch of 45 + old programmers that were all hard-working professionals producing reliable and efficient applications ( or components ) .
Most of them , however , ( 80-90 \ % ) never adopted modern ways of software development ( and are even proud of it ) .
They do a lot of unnecessary low-level code ( instead of ready-made libs and technologies ) and essentially use procedural coding thinly coated by class definitions instead of a true OOP ( object-oriented programming ) approach .
This approach generally works well for small projects , however the bigger the project is the more problems outdated coding creates .
There are vast differences in the quality of programmers in the big projects and the more cryptic your code is ( even though it 's crystal clear from the 80 's coding style view ) the more problems it 's going to generate .
IMO the biggest advantage of OOP is that the structure of the code can ( and should ) mirror the structure of the problem it 's trying to solve .
In a good OOP design , even an inexperience programmer should be able to understand what the code is doing just by reading the names of the classes , their interfaces and the relations between them .
A good 30-something yo developer usually does this kind of design .
A 50 yo usually does n't .
In a project with 150 developers with the usual workforce fluctuation throughout the years where incremental versions are being released , the original code of old-style programmers ( that may not be at the company anymore ) can seriously affect development times and the overall quality of the system developed .
Ironically , the other extreme with the same result is a 30 yo C + + guru who by overusing operator overloads , custom manipulators , templates and macros , essentially creates a new programming language making it impossible to decipher in the code of the main app .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>People tend to cling to their old habits.
In the world of programming it means clinging to outdated approaches to coding.
Throughout my career I met a bunch of 45+ old programmers that were all hard-working professionals producing reliable and efficient applications (or components).
Most of them, however, (80-90\%) never adopted modern ways of software development (and are even proud of it).
They do a lot of unnecessary low-level code (instead of ready-made libs and technologies) and essentially use procedural coding thinly coated by class definitions instead of a true OOP (object-oriented programming) approach.
This approach generally works well for small projects, however the bigger the project is the more problems outdated coding creates.
There are vast differences in the quality of programmers in the big projects and the more cryptic your code is (even though it's crystal clear from the 80's coding style view) the more problems it's going to generate.
IMO the biggest advantage of OOP is that the structure of the code can (and should) mirror the structure of the problem it's trying to solve.
In a good OOP design, even an inexperience programmer should be able to understand what the code is doing just by reading the names of the classes, their interfaces and the relations between them.
A good 30-something yo developer usually does this kind of design.
A 50 yo usually doesn't.
In a project with 150 developers with the usual workforce fluctuation throughout the years where incremental versions are being released, the original code of old-style programmers (that may not be at the company anymore) can seriously affect development times and the overall quality of the system developed.
Ironically, the other extreme with the same result is a 30 yo C++ guru who by overusing operator overloads, custom manipulators, templates and macros, essentially creates a new programming language making it impossible to decipher in the code of the main app.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31180788</id>
	<title>Re:jaded</title>
	<author>CAIMLAS</author>
	<datestamp>1265050920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've noticed an attitude in many people which might be falsely construed as "jaded", "biased", "angry", "hostile", "unfriendly" - you name it. My experience is that the observers are just missing the vapid, bubbly personality that a younger person is more likely to put forward to try to impress with.</p><p>An older person knows better: they know such tricks work short term, but do nothing in the long term. They know real people - ones with knowledge and (importantly!) life experience are not typically so doe-eyed and bushy tailed.</p><p>An older person hopefully knows, likely through mistakes, that you've got to be true to yourself. This isn't to the preclusion of a pleasant personality, mind you. But I honestly would not trust an "older" person who has not become at least a little bit jaded in their lives - and I'd advise others to do the same. If someone hasn't become biased, jaded, or cynical to some degree, I'd say the likelihood is high that they've done more stepping on others than they've been stepped on, and should be best avoided.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've noticed an attitude in many people which might be falsely construed as " jaded " , " biased " , " angry " , " hostile " , " unfriendly " - you name it .
My experience is that the observers are just missing the vapid , bubbly personality that a younger person is more likely to put forward to try to impress with.An older person knows better : they know such tricks work short term , but do nothing in the long term .
They know real people - ones with knowledge and ( importantly !
) life experience are not typically so doe-eyed and bushy tailed.An older person hopefully knows , likely through mistakes , that you 've got to be true to yourself .
This is n't to the preclusion of a pleasant personality , mind you .
But I honestly would not trust an " older " person who has not become at least a little bit jaded in their lives - and I 'd advise others to do the same .
If someone has n't become biased , jaded , or cynical to some degree , I 'd say the likelihood is high that they 've done more stepping on others than they 've been stepped on , and should be best avoided .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've noticed an attitude in many people which might be falsely construed as "jaded", "biased", "angry", "hostile", "unfriendly" - you name it.
My experience is that the observers are just missing the vapid, bubbly personality that a younger person is more likely to put forward to try to impress with.An older person knows better: they know such tricks work short term, but do nothing in the long term.
They know real people - ones with knowledge and (importantly!
) life experience are not typically so doe-eyed and bushy tailed.An older person hopefully knows, likely through mistakes, that you've got to be true to yourself.
This isn't to the preclusion of a pleasant personality, mind you.
But I honestly would not trust an "older" person who has not become at least a little bit jaded in their lives - and I'd advise others to do the same.
If someone hasn't become biased, jaded, or cynical to some degree, I'd say the likelihood is high that they've done more stepping on others than they've been stepped on, and should be best avoided.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172536</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172536</id>
	<title>Re:jaded</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265050560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You know being jaded may be the case.  As an IT Manager myself I have rejected a lot of older developers not because of skill sets but because of that jaded attitude.   I don't want to spend my work day arguing with a developer just because he thinks he knows better.  Even though he may not fully understand the skill sets of the larger team trying to create an architecture where everyone can maintain.  Sometimes you need to do things sub-optimal for better overall results.  Yes lets not go with an Object Oriented Model for this case because of the size of the application it just doesn't fit and the support people will take a lot time trying to fix a problem vs. a procedural approach (or a Light OO) which changes can be found quicker and easier from other people.<br>Or having someone who supposed to work under you trying to manage you job, just because he has more experience.  If you are going for a job you better make yourself a team player where your experience is helpful for the process not an ego boost to yourself where you need to hinder the process so you can be right.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You know being jaded may be the case .
As an IT Manager myself I have rejected a lot of older developers not because of skill sets but because of that jaded attitude .
I do n't want to spend my work day arguing with a developer just because he thinks he knows better .
Even though he may not fully understand the skill sets of the larger team trying to create an architecture where everyone can maintain .
Sometimes you need to do things sub-optimal for better overall results .
Yes lets not go with an Object Oriented Model for this case because of the size of the application it just does n't fit and the support people will take a lot time trying to fix a problem vs. a procedural approach ( or a Light OO ) which changes can be found quicker and easier from other people.Or having someone who supposed to work under you trying to manage you job , just because he has more experience .
If you are going for a job you better make yourself a team player where your experience is helpful for the process not an ego boost to yourself where you need to hinder the process so you can be right .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You know being jaded may be the case.
As an IT Manager myself I have rejected a lot of older developers not because of skill sets but because of that jaded attitude.
I don't want to spend my work day arguing with a developer just because he thinks he knows better.
Even though he may not fully understand the skill sets of the larger team trying to create an architecture where everyone can maintain.
Sometimes you need to do things sub-optimal for better overall results.
Yes lets not go with an Object Oriented Model for this case because of the size of the application it just doesn't fit and the support people will take a lot time trying to fix a problem vs. a procedural approach (or a Light OO) which changes can be found quicker and easier from other people.Or having someone who supposed to work under you trying to manage you job, just because he has more experience.
If you are going for a job you better make yourself a team player where your experience is helpful for the process not an ego boost to yourself where you need to hinder the process so you can be right.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171880</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31174714</id>
	<title>Non-technical hiring mgrs?!  *That's* your problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265057700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Look, anytime you have HR (or anyone non-technical) hiring programmers you're going to have trouble.  A technical candidate's value can \_only\_ ever be accurately evaluated by a more-senior technical person.  If you're hiring any other way you're just buying by the pound.</p><p>Frankly, any organization that delegates its technical hires to HR is effectively saying "we don't need high-quality programmers."  In that case, hiring young, cheap workers is probably the right move.  I don't see the problem here.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Look , anytime you have HR ( or anyone non-technical ) hiring programmers you 're going to have trouble .
A technical candidate 's value can \ _only \ _ ever be accurately evaluated by a more-senior technical person .
If you 're hiring any other way you 're just buying by the pound.Frankly , any organization that delegates its technical hires to HR is effectively saying " we do n't need high-quality programmers .
" In that case , hiring young , cheap workers is probably the right move .
I do n't see the problem here .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Look, anytime you have HR (or anyone non-technical) hiring programmers you're going to have trouble.
A technical candidate's value can \_only\_ ever be accurately evaluated by a more-senior technical person.
If you're hiring any other way you're just buying by the pound.Frankly, any organization that delegates its technical hires to HR is effectively saying "we don't need high-quality programmers.
"  In that case, hiring young, cheap workers is probably the right move.
I don't see the problem here.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172442</id>
	<title>This is relevant to my intrests</title>
	<author>SmallFurryCreature</author>
	<datestamp>1265050320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Approaching the age of 40 at break neck speeds, I am going to find out how true it is that there are no old coders.
</p><p>But frankly, I don't think it is going to be a huge issue unless 40 turns out to be a really magical number. I have had no problems before. Granted, junior positions are no longer open to me, but then, why would I want to?
</p><p>I have found that at least in Holland there is a real shortage of good web developers, people who can not just put up a website but maintain it and worse, debug somebody elses mess. There are tons of LAMP developers it seems, and yet companies can't find them. But you got to be able to deliver, how many of the programmers who complain they can't find a job really just aren't any good?
</p><p>In fact in an interview Backbase, an small but international developer said in "De Pers" that they were so desperate for experienced developers they had put a freeze on hiring juniors because they did not have the people to train/lead them.
</p><p>Yes, some companies might prefer to hire someone young, but these tend to be the grindhouses of the industry, were they churn out project after project with no quality for a low low price. You all know them, the companies that do government IT. If you IT department still insists you run IE6, then you got one of them.
</p><p>But there are countless more companies that do try to work for their money were experience and maturity are needed to keep the enthusiasm of the younger developers in line. There has to be someone who can actually debug a third party app if the shit hits the fan and do it without constant hand holding. There is in development and certainly web-development a lot of grunt work that is really a waste to put a senior on, but I have seen what junior's today are 'capable' of. Or rather not capable. It is the parts of a project that go beyond the "teach yourself X in 24 hours" books or even school. It is the years of experience encountering all kind of problems that turn a junior into a senior.
</p><p>A smart company therefor has both kinds, the juniors for the grind work and to bring in new ideas, the seniors to keep it all running smoothly.
</p><p>And if your company ain't smart enough for that? Move on as fast as possible.
</p><p> <b>BUT</b> I just re-read the summary AND the article and there is a problem. The article is about IT-workers while the summary is about programmers. I have started to notice that there is a difference to the point that developers really aren't part of IT at all. I always thought we were, but others disagree.
</p><p>So, is the article about how their are no old help-desk jockey's? And could this be because there is a job for senior dev's but not for senior printer unjammers? Just what is IT? A 60+ senior developer is a respectable position, if you are 60+ and still have to install new PC's you screwed up and a kid can do your job cheaper.
</p><p>In conclusion, I am not all that worried. Any company not willing to hire a 40+ developer with over 2 decades experience on countless successful projects, I wouldn't want to work for anyway.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Approaching the age of 40 at break neck speeds , I am going to find out how true it is that there are no old coders .
But frankly , I do n't think it is going to be a huge issue unless 40 turns out to be a really magical number .
I have had no problems before .
Granted , junior positions are no longer open to me , but then , why would I want to ?
I have found that at least in Holland there is a real shortage of good web developers , people who can not just put up a website but maintain it and worse , debug somebody elses mess .
There are tons of LAMP developers it seems , and yet companies ca n't find them .
But you got to be able to deliver , how many of the programmers who complain they ca n't find a job really just are n't any good ?
In fact in an interview Backbase , an small but international developer said in " De Pers " that they were so desperate for experienced developers they had put a freeze on hiring juniors because they did not have the people to train/lead them .
Yes , some companies might prefer to hire someone young , but these tend to be the grindhouses of the industry , were they churn out project after project with no quality for a low low price .
You all know them , the companies that do government IT .
If you IT department still insists you run IE6 , then you got one of them .
But there are countless more companies that do try to work for their money were experience and maturity are needed to keep the enthusiasm of the younger developers in line .
There has to be someone who can actually debug a third party app if the shit hits the fan and do it without constant hand holding .
There is in development and certainly web-development a lot of grunt work that is really a waste to put a senior on , but I have seen what junior 's today are 'capable ' of .
Or rather not capable .
It is the parts of a project that go beyond the " teach yourself X in 24 hours " books or even school .
It is the years of experience encountering all kind of problems that turn a junior into a senior .
A smart company therefor has both kinds , the juniors for the grind work and to bring in new ideas , the seniors to keep it all running smoothly .
And if your company ai n't smart enough for that ?
Move on as fast as possible .
BUT I just re-read the summary AND the article and there is a problem .
The article is about IT-workers while the summary is about programmers .
I have started to notice that there is a difference to the point that developers really are n't part of IT at all .
I always thought we were , but others disagree .
So , is the article about how their are no old help-desk jockey 's ?
And could this be because there is a job for senior dev 's but not for senior printer unjammers ?
Just what is IT ?
A 60 + senior developer is a respectable position , if you are 60 + and still have to install new PC 's you screwed up and a kid can do your job cheaper .
In conclusion , I am not all that worried .
Any company not willing to hire a 40 + developer with over 2 decades experience on countless successful projects , I would n't want to work for anyway .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Approaching the age of 40 at break neck speeds, I am going to find out how true it is that there are no old coders.
But frankly, I don't think it is going to be a huge issue unless 40 turns out to be a really magical number.
I have had no problems before.
Granted, junior positions are no longer open to me, but then, why would I want to?
I have found that at least in Holland there is a real shortage of good web developers, people who can not just put up a website but maintain it and worse, debug somebody elses mess.
There are tons of LAMP developers it seems, and yet companies can't find them.
But you got to be able to deliver, how many of the programmers who complain they can't find a job really just aren't any good?
In fact in an interview Backbase, an small but international developer said in "De Pers" that they were so desperate for experienced developers they had put a freeze on hiring juniors because they did not have the people to train/lead them.
Yes, some companies might prefer to hire someone young, but these tend to be the grindhouses of the industry, were they churn out project after project with no quality for a low low price.
You all know them, the companies that do government IT.
If you IT department still insists you run IE6, then you got one of them.
But there are countless more companies that do try to work for their money were experience and maturity are needed to keep the enthusiasm of the younger developers in line.
There has to be someone who can actually debug a third party app if the shit hits the fan and do it without constant hand holding.
There is in development and certainly web-development a lot of grunt work that is really a waste to put a senior on, but I have seen what junior's today are 'capable' of.
Or rather not capable.
It is the parts of a project that go beyond the "teach yourself X in 24 hours" books or even school.
It is the years of experience encountering all kind of problems that turn a junior into a senior.
A smart company therefor has both kinds, the juniors for the grind work and to bring in new ideas, the seniors to keep it all running smoothly.
And if your company ain't smart enough for that?
Move on as fast as possible.
BUT I just re-read the summary AND the article and there is a problem.
The article is about IT-workers while the summary is about programmers.
I have started to notice that there is a difference to the point that developers really aren't part of IT at all.
I always thought we were, but others disagree.
So, is the article about how their are no old help-desk jockey's?
And could this be because there is a job for senior dev's but not for senior printer unjammers?
Just what is IT?
A 60+ senior developer is a respectable position, if you are 60+ and still have to install new PC's you screwed up and a kid can do your job cheaper.
In conclusion, I am not all that worried.
Any company not willing to hire a 40+ developer with over 2 decades experience on countless successful projects, I wouldn't want to work for anyway.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31175706</id>
	<title>Re:Obivous Answer</title>
	<author>Amanitin</author>
	<datestamp>1265017800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Unlike any other field, the medium in which we work imposes no ceiling on what we can do with it, G&#246;del incompleteness notwithstanding.  There is no "beyond".</p></div><p>Unlike any other? So you tell me the medium of science imposes ceilings? Like there is going to be a point where 'breaking news: we know EVERYTHING about the universe'?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Unlike any other field , the medium in which we work imposes no ceiling on what we can do with it , G   del incompleteness notwithstanding .
There is no " beyond " .Unlike any other ?
So you tell me the medium of science imposes ceilings ?
Like there is going to be a point where 'breaking news : we know EVERYTHING about the universe ' ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Unlike any other field, the medium in which we work imposes no ceiling on what we can do with it, Gödel incompleteness notwithstanding.
There is no "beyond".Unlike any other?
So you tell me the medium of science imposes ceilings?
Like there is going to be a point where 'breaking news: we know EVERYTHING about the universe'?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173060</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173140</id>
	<title>I know why.</title>
	<author>Yaos</author>
	<datestamp>1265052300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>By the time they hit 40 they either go crazy and jump off a bridge, or they have a heart attack from the stress.</htmltext>
<tokenext>By the time they hit 40 they either go crazy and jump off a bridge , or they have a heart attack from the stress .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>By the time they hit 40 they either go crazy and jump off a bridge, or they have a heart attack from the stress.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172386</id>
	<title>Re:jaded</title>
	<author>Richard Steiner</author>
	<datestamp>1265050140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ah, but which way do you go?</p><p>If you move from job to job on a regular basis, you're seen as an opportunist who won't stick around for long.</p><p>If you stay in one place too long, you're seen as being stuck in a rut and not growing your skillset (nevermind what the truth might actually be).</p><p>I personally prefer to stick with a given company long enough to learn the ropes in some detail, and I would have actually preferred to stay with my previous two employers until retirement (the work was interesting enough), but corporate layoffs have a way of changing an individual's career path.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ah , but which way do you go ? If you move from job to job on a regular basis , you 're seen as an opportunist who wo n't stick around for long.If you stay in one place too long , you 're seen as being stuck in a rut and not growing your skillset ( nevermind what the truth might actually be ) .I personally prefer to stick with a given company long enough to learn the ropes in some detail , and I would have actually preferred to stay with my previous two employers until retirement ( the work was interesting enough ) , but corporate layoffs have a way of changing an individual 's career path .
: - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ah, but which way do you go?If you move from job to job on a regular basis, you're seen as an opportunist who won't stick around for long.If you stay in one place too long, you're seen as being stuck in a rut and not growing your skillset (nevermind what the truth might actually be).I personally prefer to stick with a given company long enough to learn the ropes in some detail, and I would have actually preferred to stay with my previous two employers until retirement (the work was interesting enough), but corporate layoffs have a way of changing an individual's career path.
:-)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172154</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31177126</id>
	<title>Re:Obivous Answer</title>
	<author>elnyka</author>
	<datestamp>1265023260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I'd consider getting a managing position as being demoted.</p></div><p>Depending on where you work. In some companies (specially the shitty ones), this is true.</p><p>

But in others, specially good companies (either engineering ones or IT ones that value technology), being a manager after being a techie is a good way to go.</p><p>

For me, I'm 41 now, programming for 15 years now, 18 if we count school work. Been a senior soft.eng for a while now. By 50 I intend to be either at an architect position, or an engineering management position (different challenge and - usually - more money). Either that or I'll "retire" by 55 to teach programming or math at a university or community college and do some part-time consulting gig on the side (less money but more enjoyable.)</p><p>

At least that's the plan.</p><p>

I love pure, raw and unabashed coding, but I don't feel that I will have the passion for doing so beyond another decade. I do some very interesting software programming work, but still. Been there, done that, what's next? Meh, working my way to promotions.</p><p>

Unless there is something like, oh, I dunno, some new, revolutionary industrial research shinny thingie that gets my programming panties all curled up again in frenzy, moving up the (engineering) management ladder (in a good tech company, that is) looks like a good deal to me.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd consider getting a managing position as being demoted.Depending on where you work .
In some companies ( specially the shitty ones ) , this is true .
But in others , specially good companies ( either engineering ones or IT ones that value technology ) , being a manager after being a techie is a good way to go .
For me , I 'm 41 now , programming for 15 years now , 18 if we count school work .
Been a senior soft.eng for a while now .
By 50 I intend to be either at an architect position , or an engineering management position ( different challenge and - usually - more money ) .
Either that or I 'll " retire " by 55 to teach programming or math at a university or community college and do some part-time consulting gig on the side ( less money but more enjoyable .
) At least that 's the plan .
I love pure , raw and unabashed coding , but I do n't feel that I will have the passion for doing so beyond another decade .
I do some very interesting software programming work , but still .
Been there , done that , what 's next ?
Meh , working my way to promotions .
Unless there is something like , oh , I dunno , some new , revolutionary industrial research shinny thingie that gets my programming panties all curled up again in frenzy , moving up the ( engineering ) management ladder ( in a good tech company , that is ) looks like a good deal to me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd consider getting a managing position as being demoted.Depending on where you work.
In some companies (specially the shitty ones), this is true.
But in others, specially good companies (either engineering ones or IT ones that value technology), being a manager after being a techie is a good way to go.
For me, I'm 41 now, programming for 15 years now, 18 if we count school work.
Been a senior soft.eng for a while now.
By 50 I intend to be either at an architect position, or an engineering management position (different challenge and - usually - more money).
Either that or I'll "retire" by 55 to teach programming or math at a university or community college and do some part-time consulting gig on the side (less money but more enjoyable.
)

At least that's the plan.
I love pure, raw and unabashed coding, but I don't feel that I will have the passion for doing so beyond another decade.
I do some very interesting software programming work, but still.
Been there, done that, what's next?
Meh, working my way to promotions.
Unless there is something like, oh, I dunno, some new, revolutionary industrial research shinny thingie that gets my programming panties all curled up again in frenzy, moving up the (engineering) management ladder (in a good tech company, that is) looks like a good deal to me.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173034</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173588</id>
	<title>Frankly, I got bored with programming</title>
	<author>davide marney</author>
	<datestamp>1265053860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Programming is a young person's game.  In the beginning, it's exciting to have this fantastic machine bow to your every command.  After 20 years, however, I had done everything I'd ever wanted to do in programming.  I was more than happy to let the next generation take over.</p><p>What I became interested in was moving up a level in abstraction, and I got into modeling and architecting designs rather than executing them.  Seems like a fairly natural progression to me, so yeah, I'm not surprised that the number of developers 40+ is small.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Programming is a young person 's game .
In the beginning , it 's exciting to have this fantastic machine bow to your every command .
After 20 years , however , I had done everything I 'd ever wanted to do in programming .
I was more than happy to let the next generation take over.What I became interested in was moving up a level in abstraction , and I got into modeling and architecting designs rather than executing them .
Seems like a fairly natural progression to me , so yeah , I 'm not surprised that the number of developers 40 + is small .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Programming is a young person's game.
In the beginning, it's exciting to have this fantastic machine bow to your every command.
After 20 years, however, I had done everything I'd ever wanted to do in programming.
I was more than happy to let the next generation take over.What I became interested in was moving up a level in abstraction, and I got into modeling and architecting designs rather than executing them.
Seems like a fairly natural progression to me, so yeah, I'm not surprised that the number of developers 40+ is small.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31185454</id>
	<title>What?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266512460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Where does this person work? Here, it's hard to find programmers who are UNDER 40.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Where does this person work ?
Here , it 's hard to find programmers who are UNDER 40 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Where does this person work?
Here, it's hard to find programmers who are UNDER 40.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172738</id>
	<title>24 months to burnout on average?</title>
	<author>StandardDeviant</author>
	<datestamp>1265051100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Two years seems to be the developer half-life in most shops.  By that point if you're worse than average they've canned you, and if you're better than average your responsibilities have grown to the point that you're spending as much or more time dealing with cross-team organizational bullshit as you are doing what you actually love (writing code) and hence wanting to quit.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)  The thing is, I think every gig has problems, and often they're the same tedious set of problems, but people jump in the hopes that maybe, maybe the grass will actually be greener THIS time.  (After a decade or two of corporate culture, further, it's all too likely that the truly idiosyncratic individuals will have accumulated enough capital and enough disgust with the system that they give it all the finger and go run a bar just to pick one prominent example.)</p><p>The other direct motivator that comes to mind is money.  All too many shops hire you at a rate that approximates more-or-less-if-you're-lucky Market Rate for your skills and so forth, then want to give you sub-10\% raises for ever and ever thereafter.  Ergo it's easier to ramp your salary in tune with your experience by jumping periodically.  This is perhaps most prevalent in the first ten years of a programming career as there are big deltas at roughly two and five and seven-ten years of experience as you start to [potentially] hop up the org chart some from junior to regular to senior dev.</p><p>So in short I think that getting fed up with a given situation and taking steps to change it for (hopefully, maybe not, probably not... but hopefully) the better is both normal and healthy.  Or are you of the opinion that backing the same crappy horse for years is the best way to go through life?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Two years seems to be the developer half-life in most shops .
By that point if you 're worse than average they 've canned you , and if you 're better than average your responsibilities have grown to the point that you 're spending as much or more time dealing with cross-team organizational bullshit as you are doing what you actually love ( writing code ) and hence wanting to quit .
: ) The thing is , I think every gig has problems , and often they 're the same tedious set of problems , but people jump in the hopes that maybe , maybe the grass will actually be greener THIS time .
( After a decade or two of corporate culture , further , it 's all too likely that the truly idiosyncratic individuals will have accumulated enough capital and enough disgust with the system that they give it all the finger and go run a bar just to pick one prominent example .
) The other direct motivator that comes to mind is money .
All too many shops hire you at a rate that approximates more-or-less-if-you 're-lucky Market Rate for your skills and so forth , then want to give you sub-10 \ % raises for ever and ever thereafter .
Ergo it 's easier to ramp your salary in tune with your experience by jumping periodically .
This is perhaps most prevalent in the first ten years of a programming career as there are big deltas at roughly two and five and seven-ten years of experience as you start to [ potentially ] hop up the org chart some from junior to regular to senior dev.So in short I think that getting fed up with a given situation and taking steps to change it for ( hopefully , maybe not , probably not... but hopefully ) the better is both normal and healthy .
Or are you of the opinion that backing the same crappy horse for years is the best way to go through life ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Two years seems to be the developer half-life in most shops.
By that point if you're worse than average they've canned you, and if you're better than average your responsibilities have grown to the point that you're spending as much or more time dealing with cross-team organizational bullshit as you are doing what you actually love (writing code) and hence wanting to quit.
:)  The thing is, I think every gig has problems, and often they're the same tedious set of problems, but people jump in the hopes that maybe, maybe the grass will actually be greener THIS time.
(After a decade or two of corporate culture, further, it's all too likely that the truly idiosyncratic individuals will have accumulated enough capital and enough disgust with the system that they give it all the finger and go run a bar just to pick one prominent example.
)The other direct motivator that comes to mind is money.
All too many shops hire you at a rate that approximates more-or-less-if-you're-lucky Market Rate for your skills and so forth, then want to give you sub-10\% raises for ever and ever thereafter.
Ergo it's easier to ramp your salary in tune with your experience by jumping periodically.
This is perhaps most prevalent in the first ten years of a programming career as there are big deltas at roughly two and five and seven-ten years of experience as you start to [potentially] hop up the org chart some from junior to regular to senior dev.So in short I think that getting fed up with a given situation and taking steps to change it for (hopefully, maybe not, probably not... but hopefully) the better is both normal and healthy.
Or are you of the opinion that backing the same crappy horse for years is the best way to go through life?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172154</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31176292</id>
	<title>Re:Youthful arrogance....</title>
	<author>phantomfive</author>
	<datestamp>1265019840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Just a few days ago there was a post right here on Slashdot asking how easy it was to cheat in CS. Based on the forum discussions, a significant number of students today get programming degrees and can't produce a lick of decent code.</p></div><p>Based on interviews I've done, that is 100\% true. One memorable interviewee couldn't write a program to swap two variables. True story.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Just a few days ago there was a post right here on Slashdot asking how easy it was to cheat in CS .
Based on the forum discussions , a significant number of students today get programming degrees and ca n't produce a lick of decent code.Based on interviews I 've done , that is 100 \ % true .
One memorable interviewee could n't write a program to swap two variables .
True story .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just a few days ago there was a post right here on Slashdot asking how easy it was to cheat in CS.
Based on the forum discussions, a significant number of students today get programming degrees and can't produce a lick of decent code.Based on interviews I've done, that is 100\% true.
One memorable interviewee couldn't write a program to swap two variables.
True story.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172100</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172100</id>
	<title>Youthful arrogance....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265049180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Is the younger generation of programmers really that arrogant to think that older programmers don't know and learn new languages and coding trends?  it is my experience that the best coders out there are those over 40.  Not only are they on top of technologies that are current, but they understand why those technologies came to be and what they helped to improve.  Many of them learned on the job, in a budding industry.</p><p>Just a few days ago there was a post right here on Slashdot asking how easy it was to cheat in CS.  Based on the forum discussions, a significant number of students today get programming degrees and can't produce a lick of decent code.</p><p>This is NOT to say that there is not an abundance of exceptional young talent, there is, and they deserve good work and decent pay, but this is in defense of those who helped pave the way.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is the younger generation of programmers really that arrogant to think that older programmers do n't know and learn new languages and coding trends ?
it is my experience that the best coders out there are those over 40 .
Not only are they on top of technologies that are current , but they understand why those technologies came to be and what they helped to improve .
Many of them learned on the job , in a budding industry.Just a few days ago there was a post right here on Slashdot asking how easy it was to cheat in CS .
Based on the forum discussions , a significant number of students today get programming degrees and ca n't produce a lick of decent code.This is NOT to say that there is not an abundance of exceptional young talent , there is , and they deserve good work and decent pay , but this is in defense of those who helped pave the way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is the younger generation of programmers really that arrogant to think that older programmers don't know and learn new languages and coding trends?
it is my experience that the best coders out there are those over 40.
Not only are they on top of technologies that are current, but they understand why those technologies came to be and what they helped to improve.
Many of them learned on the job, in a budding industry.Just a few days ago there was a post right here on Slashdot asking how easy it was to cheat in CS.
Based on the forum discussions, a significant number of students today get programming degrees and can't produce a lick of decent code.This is NOT to say that there is not an abundance of exceptional young talent, there is, and they deserve good work and decent pay, but this is in defense of those who helped pave the way.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31175326</id>
	<title>Re:Cheaper young 'uns will work longer hours?</title>
	<author>pipedwho</author>
	<datestamp>1265016600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's not them online, that's their Perl script logging in at 8pm to deliver the email they wrote just before they left the office at 5pm.</p><p>A tried and true way of appearing dedicated is to send a few emails timestamped late into the evening.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's not them online , that 's their Perl script logging in at 8pm to deliver the email they wrote just before they left the office at 5pm.A tried and true way of appearing dedicated is to send a few emails timestamped late into the evening .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's not them online, that's their Perl script logging in at 8pm to deliver the email they wrote just before they left the office at 5pm.A tried and true way of appearing dedicated is to send a few emails timestamped late into the evening.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173626</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31177768</id>
	<title>Not true in my area</title>
	<author>jonwil</author>
	<datestamp>1265025660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Its almost impossible to find jobs around here where they dont want someone with 3-years commercial experience in</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Its almost impossible to find jobs around here where they dont want someone with 3-years commercial experience in</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Its almost impossible to find jobs around here where they dont want someone with 3-years commercial experience in</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31175474</id>
	<title>Seems foolish</title>
	<author>KingTank</author>
	<datestamp>1265017020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>When I was a PC technician in a corporate campus, it seemed obvious to me that the senior technicians could solve the most difficult problems tens or even thousands of times faster than the inexperienced ones.  No matter how intelligent the inexperienced tech is, he's got to spend lots of time researching a fix, and maybe he doesn't even know where to begin looking.  There's really no theoretical upper limit on how long a fix could take.  Compare that to a guy who just knows the fixes from memory, or at least has some experience with similar problems to help his intuition.  He could literally fix something in a few minutes that takes the inexperienced guy weeks to figure out.  It drove me nuts that the senior techs were looked at as managerial assistants, when it was obvious that their most effective use was as a Q and A resource for the other technicians.

Apply this concept to programming, where you're dealing with bugs, problems that the developer has essentially created himself, so they are ALL difficult problems, and experience becomes even more valuable.  Not to mention the experienced developer's better ability to avoid creating bugs in the first place.</htmltext>
<tokenext>When I was a PC technician in a corporate campus , it seemed obvious to me that the senior technicians could solve the most difficult problems tens or even thousands of times faster than the inexperienced ones .
No matter how intelligent the inexperienced tech is , he 's got to spend lots of time researching a fix , and maybe he does n't even know where to begin looking .
There 's really no theoretical upper limit on how long a fix could take .
Compare that to a guy who just knows the fixes from memory , or at least has some experience with similar problems to help his intuition .
He could literally fix something in a few minutes that takes the inexperienced guy weeks to figure out .
It drove me nuts that the senior techs were looked at as managerial assistants , when it was obvious that their most effective use was as a Q and A resource for the other technicians .
Apply this concept to programming , where you 're dealing with bugs , problems that the developer has essentially created himself , so they are ALL difficult problems , and experience becomes even more valuable .
Not to mention the experienced developer 's better ability to avoid creating bugs in the first place .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I was a PC technician in a corporate campus, it seemed obvious to me that the senior technicians could solve the most difficult problems tens or even thousands of times faster than the inexperienced ones.
No matter how intelligent the inexperienced tech is, he's got to spend lots of time researching a fix, and maybe he doesn't even know where to begin looking.
There's really no theoretical upper limit on how long a fix could take.
Compare that to a guy who just knows the fixes from memory, or at least has some experience with similar problems to help his intuition.
He could literally fix something in a few minutes that takes the inexperienced guy weeks to figure out.
It drove me nuts that the senior techs were looked at as managerial assistants, when it was obvious that their most effective use was as a Q and A resource for the other technicians.
Apply this concept to programming, where you're dealing with bugs, problems that the developer has essentially created himself, so they are ALL difficult problems, and experience becomes even more valuable.
Not to mention the experienced developer's better ability to avoid creating bugs in the first place.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173012</id>
	<title>Re:Obivous Answer</title>
	<author>Bovarchist</author>
	<datestamp>1265051880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Or they renew on Carousel.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Or they renew on Carousel .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or they renew on Carousel.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171678</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31174002</id>
	<title>Re:Experience</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265055240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I can't find the artist, but I think it was Duchamp, who was commissioned for a piece of artwork that he finished, and the purchaser protested at the high price.  It went to trial, and the judge looked at the painting and asked Duchamp if the few hours it had taken him to paint that was worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars he was charging, to which he replied that the hundreds of thousands of dollars were for a lifetime of practice and learning, not for the hours for that specific painting.<p>
And *that* was pretty strongly influenced by Da Vinci, who, on being asked to submit a design for a massive painting for the Vatican but lacking time to put together a portfolio or sample, <a href="http://www.fineartappraiser.com/featureAug97.htm" title="fineartappraiser.com">drew a perfect freehand circle</a> [fineartappraiser.com] and submitted that, winning the job.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I ca n't find the artist , but I think it was Duchamp , who was commissioned for a piece of artwork that he finished , and the purchaser protested at the high price .
It went to trial , and the judge looked at the painting and asked Duchamp if the few hours it had taken him to paint that was worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars he was charging , to which he replied that the hundreds of thousands of dollars were for a lifetime of practice and learning , not for the hours for that specific painting .
And * that * was pretty strongly influenced by Da Vinci , who , on being asked to submit a design for a massive painting for the Vatican but lacking time to put together a portfolio or sample , drew a perfect freehand circle [ fineartappraiser.com ] and submitted that , winning the job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can't find the artist, but I think it was Duchamp, who was commissioned for a piece of artwork that he finished, and the purchaser protested at the high price.
It went to trial, and the judge looked at the painting and asked Duchamp if the few hours it had taken him to paint that was worth the hundreds of thousands of dollars he was charging, to which he replied that the hundreds of thousands of dollars were for a lifetime of practice and learning, not for the hours for that specific painting.
And *that* was pretty strongly influenced by Da Vinci, who, on being asked to submit a design for a massive painting for the Vatican but lacking time to put together a portfolio or sample, drew a perfect freehand circle [fineartappraiser.com] and submitted that, winning the job.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171954</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171932</id>
	<title>No really</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265048700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem is not about Age: is about Money. You having X years of experience you want X amount of money. Managers think that they can replace that with somebody cheaper (Why you can get somebody that have experience and can produce good code better than 3 when we can get 10 from India making 15,000 a year and no benefits)</p><p>Sorry Boys and Girls we ALL are in the same boat.</p><p>P.S In the defense of Indian programmers they are in the same bad position (I think even worst than ours). Having X amount of years of experience = job moved to China. So 14,000 is OK with me and you do not have any recourse.<br>Please remember that is not the corporations where the problem lies. Is the rich people that benefit from the corporations (hey they have a very expensive life )</p><p>Cheers</p><p>Caitlin</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is not about Age : is about Money .
You having X years of experience you want X amount of money .
Managers think that they can replace that with somebody cheaper ( Why you can get somebody that have experience and can produce good code better than 3 when we can get 10 from India making 15,000 a year and no benefits ) Sorry Boys and Girls we ALL are in the same boat.P.S In the defense of Indian programmers they are in the same bad position ( I think even worst than ours ) .
Having X amount of years of experience = job moved to China .
So 14,000 is OK with me and you do not have any recourse.Please remember that is not the corporations where the problem lies .
Is the rich people that benefit from the corporations ( hey they have a very expensive life ) CheersCaitlin</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is not about Age: is about Money.
You having X years of experience you want X amount of money.
Managers think that they can replace that with somebody cheaper (Why you can get somebody that have experience and can produce good code better than 3 when we can get 10 from India making 15,000 a year and no benefits)Sorry Boys and Girls we ALL are in the same boat.P.S In the defense of Indian programmers they are in the same bad position (I think even worst than ours).
Having X amount of years of experience = job moved to China.
So 14,000 is OK with me and you do not have any recourse.Please remember that is not the corporations where the problem lies.
Is the rich people that benefit from the corporations (hey they have a very expensive life )CheersCaitlin</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173446</id>
	<title>Re:Obivous Answer</title>
	<author>Darth Sdlavrot</author>
	<datestamp>1265053380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p><div class="quote"><p>Eventually people do tend to get promoted beyond programming positions.</p></div><p>I think the real reason is simple.  People older than me (almost 40) are likely to be mainframe programmers. </p></div><p>Well, I'm a good bit older than you and I have never programmed mainframes.</p><p>I like writing, so I have passed on becoming a PHB, but many of my friends and peers have gone on to be PHBs, Architects, CTOs, started their own companies, or changed careers.</p><p>I've written software for Apple ][s, DOS, Unix/Linux, OS/2, Windows, but mainly Unix/Linux for the last 20+ years.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Eventually people do tend to get promoted beyond programming positions.I think the real reason is simple .
People older than me ( almost 40 ) are likely to be mainframe programmers .
Well , I 'm a good bit older than you and I have never programmed mainframes.I like writing , so I have passed on becoming a PHB , but many of my friends and peers have gone on to be PHBs , Architects , CTOs , started their own companies , or changed careers.I 've written software for Apple ] [ s , DOS , Unix/Linux , OS/2 , Windows , but mainly Unix/Linux for the last 20 + years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Eventually people do tend to get promoted beyond programming positions.I think the real reason is simple.
People older than me (almost 40) are likely to be mainframe programmers.
Well, I'm a good bit older than you and I have never programmed mainframes.I like writing, so I have passed on becoming a PHB, but many of my friends and peers have gone on to be PHBs, Architects, CTOs, started their own companies, or changed careers.I've written software for Apple ][s, DOS, Unix/Linux, OS/2, Windows, but mainly Unix/Linux for the last 20+ years.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172346</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31180848</id>
	<title>Re:Obivous Answer</title>
	<author>zoloto</author>
	<datestamp>1265051700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>My paycheck and relative autonomy beg to differ. Not all employers are soulless corporations.</htmltext>
<tokenext>My paycheck and relative autonomy beg to differ .
Not all employers are soulless corporations .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My paycheck and relative autonomy beg to differ.
Not all employers are soulless corporations.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173034</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31175560</id>
	<title>Re:Age Test</title>
	<author>dynamator</author>
	<datestamp>1265017380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Ah yes - about 10 thrilling seconds of Jenny.

That was the first bit of screen nudity I saw in a movie theater.
Even better, it was my first industry screening at MGM.
I still have the souvenir copy of American Cinematographer with the lifeclock on the cover.

Logan's Run is one of the few films that might actually benefit from a remake.
The book is amazing - people were only allowed to live to 21.

In the words of Tom Lehrer - "When Mozart was my age, he had been dead for two years"</htmltext>
<tokenext>Ah yes - about 10 thrilling seconds of Jenny .
That was the first bit of screen nudity I saw in a movie theater .
Even better , it was my first industry screening at MGM .
I still have the souvenir copy of American Cinematographer with the lifeclock on the cover .
Logan 's Run is one of the few films that might actually benefit from a remake .
The book is amazing - people were only allowed to live to 21 .
In the words of Tom Lehrer - " When Mozart was my age , he had been dead for two years "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ah yes - about 10 thrilling seconds of Jenny.
That was the first bit of screen nudity I saw in a movie theater.
Even better, it was my first industry screening at MGM.
I still have the souvenir copy of American Cinematographer with the lifeclock on the cover.
Logan's Run is one of the few films that might actually benefit from a remake.
The book is amazing - people were only allowed to live to 21.
In the words of Tom Lehrer - "When Mozart was my age, he had been dead for two years"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172116</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172148</id>
	<title>The third way</title>
	<author>Anonymous Brave Guy</author>
	<datestamp>1265049420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There is a third kind of older programmer: disillusioned with crappy management but still wanting to do development, they strike out on their own. They either go freelance as some sort of contractor/consultant, or found their own company and bring in other people to do the business side of things while they stay technical.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is a third kind of older programmer : disillusioned with crappy management but still wanting to do development , they strike out on their own .
They either go freelance as some sort of contractor/consultant , or found their own company and bring in other people to do the business side of things while they stay technical .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is a third kind of older programmer: disillusioned with crappy management but still wanting to do development, they strike out on their own.
They either go freelance as some sort of contractor/consultant, or found their own company and bring in other people to do the business side of things while they stay technical.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171880</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172412</id>
	<title>Only "Jaded"?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265050200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>The phases of programming (and lots of other things) are:<br> <br>
- Disgruntled<br>
- Jaded<br>
- Bitter<br>
- Postal<br>
- Indifferent<br> <br>
The Systems Development Life Cycle can be thusly described:<br> <br>
- Wild Enthusiam<br>
- Beffudlement<br>
- The Disaster<br>
- The Search for the Guilty<br>
- The Punishment of the Innocent<br>
- The Promotion of  the Uninvolved<br> <br>
(yes - 45 year old programmer who is now a pointy haired bossman)</htmltext>
<tokenext>The phases of programming ( and lots of other things ) are : - Disgruntled - Jaded - Bitter - Postal - Indifferent The Systems Development Life Cycle can be thusly described : - Wild Enthusiam - Beffudlement - The Disaster - The Search for the Guilty - The Punishment of the Innocent - The Promotion of the Uninvolved ( yes - 45 year old programmer who is now a pointy haired bossman )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The phases of programming (and lots of other things) are: 
- Disgruntled
- Jaded
- Bitter
- Postal
- Indifferent 
The Systems Development Life Cycle can be thusly described: 
- Wild Enthusiam
- Beffudlement
- The Disaster
- The Search for the Guilty
- The Punishment of the Innocent
- The Promotion of  the Uninvolved 
(yes - 45 year old programmer who is now a pointy haired bossman)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171880</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172400</id>
	<title>Because we all get rich from stock options by 40!</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265050200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Right? Why's everyone laughing?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Right ?
Why 's everyone laughing ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Right?
Why's everyone laughing?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173706</id>
	<title>Re:Obivous Answer</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265054280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>Lines of code? I only ever write one per program. No carriage returns for me, thank you.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Lines of code ?
I only ever write one per program .
No carriage returns for me , thank you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Lines of code?
I only ever write one per program.
No carriage returns for me, thank you.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172256</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173614</id>
	<title>Yes but the industry is also young</title>
	<author>e2d2</author>
	<datestamp>1265053920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes but the industry is also young. I think as it matures it will accept constant wisdom over spurts of creativity just like all other engineering disciplines. The younger generation gives a little too much "Yes! Yes!" and not enough "I'm not sure".</p><p>On a side rant - The confidence coming from young programmers is, well, ridiculous. I was hot shit when I was in coding my 20s . But I grew up. Now I'm just okay at what I do. By the time I'm done I'm convinced I won't know shit.</p><p>I hope to God I'm programming after 40. I'm just not sure I want to be doing it for someone else by then.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes but the industry is also young .
I think as it matures it will accept constant wisdom over spurts of creativity just like all other engineering disciplines .
The younger generation gives a little too much " Yes !
Yes ! " and not enough " I 'm not sure " .On a side rant - The confidence coming from young programmers is , well , ridiculous .
I was hot shit when I was in coding my 20s .
But I grew up .
Now I 'm just okay at what I do .
By the time I 'm done I 'm convinced I wo n't know shit.I hope to God I 'm programming after 40 .
I 'm just not sure I want to be doing it for someone else by then .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes but the industry is also young.
I think as it matures it will accept constant wisdom over spurts of creativity just like all other engineering disciplines.
The younger generation gives a little too much "Yes!
Yes!" and not enough "I'm not sure".On a side rant - The confidence coming from young programmers is, well, ridiculous.
I was hot shit when I was in coding my 20s .
But I grew up.
Now I'm just okay at what I do.
By the time I'm done I'm convinced I won't know shit.I hope to God I'm programming after 40.
I'm just not sure I want to be doing it for someone else by then.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31184396</id>
	<title>Re:Not so simple</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266508440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Plus, the older, more experienced programmers won't play kiss ass, while the younger, less experienced are eager to if they think it will help them move up.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Plus , the older , more experienced programmers wo n't play kiss ass , while the younger , less experienced are eager to if they think it will help them move up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Plus, the older, more experienced programmers won't play kiss ass, while the younger, less experienced are eager to if they think it will help them move up.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31175222</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31177704</id>
	<title>Re:Obivous Answer</title>
	<author>Migala77</author>
	<datestamp>1265025420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Agreed in entirety!  But design and architecture are one of the options I think of when I hear "beyond programming".  I don't want the smart people languishing as code monkeys forever, their insights are lost there to all but themselves.</p></div><p>If only people could learn to read code, and learn the insight of those 'smart people' that way...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Agreed in entirety !
But design and architecture are one of the options I think of when I hear " beyond programming " .
I do n't want the smart people languishing as code monkeys forever , their insights are lost there to all but themselves.If only people could learn to read code , and learn the insight of those 'smart people ' that way.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Agreed in entirety!
But design and architecture are one of the options I think of when I hear "beyond programming".
I don't want the smart people languishing as code monkeys forever, their insights are lost there to all but themselves.If only people could learn to read code, and learn the insight of those 'smart people' that way...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31174146</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173544</id>
	<title>Re:Age Test</title>
	<author>tuzo</author>
	<datestamp>1265053740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>No mod points, but that is classic!!!</htmltext>
<tokenext>No mod points , but that is classic ! !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No mod points, but that is classic!!
!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172116</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31175594</id>
	<title>Re:Obivous Answer</title>
	<author>Blakey Rat</author>
	<datestamp>1265017440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Microsoft gets a lot of grief on this board, but this is something they certainly do right. They have like 7-8 different levels of "programmer"-- you can serve your entire career writing software and never feel like you need to switch jobs to get a raise or get your ideas heard at the company.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Microsoft gets a lot of grief on this board , but this is something they certainly do right .
They have like 7-8 different levels of " programmer " -- you can serve your entire career writing software and never feel like you need to switch jobs to get a raise or get your ideas heard at the company .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Microsoft gets a lot of grief on this board, but this is something they certainly do right.
They have like 7-8 different levels of "programmer"-- you can serve your entire career writing software and never feel like you need to switch jobs to get a raise or get your ideas heard at the company.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172300</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31176328</id>
	<title>Thats exactly what Microsoft did wrong</title>
	<author>AlgorithMan</author>
	<datestamp>1265019960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>nontechnical hiring managers tend to look at resumes with an eye for youth, under the "more bang for the buck" theory. Cheaper young 'uns will work longer hours and produce more code.</p></div></blockquote><p>

I saw an interview once with an ex-MS employee who said that MS (at least back in the days) preferred to hire kids directly coming from school... you remember that myth of "whiz kids"? That's what they were looking for...<br> <br>

Well I would have been considered a whiz kid and now that I finished my computer science major I can tell you: without a university degree in computer science - even as a whiz kid - you are a tinkerer and you know nothing about what you're doing.<br>
Today I am embarrassed by the source codes I wrote in school, that got me straight A's!<br> <br>

I even may have produced more code - because back then I didn't know enough and hence didn't think enough about what I did and wasted hours of programming things, that could have been done with far less code... and better performance... and less memory consumption... and more reliability... and more portability...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>nontechnical hiring managers tend to look at resumes with an eye for youth , under the " more bang for the buck " theory .
Cheaper young 'uns will work longer hours and produce more code .
I saw an interview once with an ex-MS employee who said that MS ( at least back in the days ) preferred to hire kids directly coming from school... you remember that myth of " whiz kids " ?
That 's what they were looking for.. . Well I would have been considered a whiz kid and now that I finished my computer science major I can tell you : without a university degree in computer science - even as a whiz kid - you are a tinkerer and you know nothing about what you 're doing .
Today I am embarrassed by the source codes I wrote in school , that got me straight A 's !
I even may have produced more code - because back then I did n't know enough and hence did n't think enough about what I did and wasted hours of programming things , that could have been done with far less code... and better performance... and less memory consumption... and more reliability... and more portability.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>nontechnical hiring managers tend to look at resumes with an eye for youth, under the "more bang for the buck" theory.
Cheaper young 'uns will work longer hours and produce more code.
I saw an interview once with an ex-MS employee who said that MS (at least back in the days) preferred to hire kids directly coming from school... you remember that myth of "whiz kids"?
That's what they were looking for... 

Well I would have been considered a whiz kid and now that I finished my computer science major I can tell you: without a university degree in computer science - even as a whiz kid - you are a tinkerer and you know nothing about what you're doing.
Today I am embarrassed by the source codes I wrote in school, that got me straight A's!
I even may have produced more code - because back then I didn't know enough and hence didn't think enough about what I did and wasted hours of programming things, that could have been done with far less code... and better performance... and less memory consumption... and more reliability... and more portability...
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31176578</id>
	<title>No managerial shortsightedness...</title>
	<author>psithurism</author>
	<datestamp>1265020980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Is the younger generation of programmers really that arrogant to think that older programmers don't know and learn new languages and coding trends?</p></div><p>Well as one ambassador for the younger generation of programmers I will say: no.</p><p>It's the managers. They hire and layoff with age discrimination and a blind eye to cheating. Don't blame the guys who might get stuck with coworkers from these poor practices.</p><p>Further it is hideously important to our survival as young programmers to stamp out age discrimination before we get hit with it.</p><p>I would further add that the article clearly lays the blame on the ancient problem of poor metrics of coding productivity, which fail to show the problems of replacing expensive senior programmers over the pack of low paid entry level guys.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Is the younger generation of programmers really that arrogant to think that older programmers do n't know and learn new languages and coding trends ? Well as one ambassador for the younger generation of programmers I will say : no.It 's the managers .
They hire and layoff with age discrimination and a blind eye to cheating .
Do n't blame the guys who might get stuck with coworkers from these poor practices.Further it is hideously important to our survival as young programmers to stamp out age discrimination before we get hit with it.I would further add that the article clearly lays the blame on the ancient problem of poor metrics of coding productivity , which fail to show the problems of replacing expensive senior programmers over the pack of low paid entry level guys .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is the younger generation of programmers really that arrogant to think that older programmers don't know and learn new languages and coding trends?Well as one ambassador for the younger generation of programmers I will say: no.It's the managers.
They hire and layoff with age discrimination and a blind eye to cheating.
Don't blame the guys who might get stuck with coworkers from these poor practices.Further it is hideously important to our survival as young programmers to stamp out age discrimination before we get hit with it.I would further add that the article clearly lays the blame on the ancient problem of poor metrics of coding productivity, which fail to show the problems of replacing expensive senior programmers over the pack of low paid entry level guys.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172100</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172154</id>
	<title>Re:jaded</title>
	<author>Sir\_Lewk</author>
	<datestamp>1265049420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you are 60 years old, had haved worked in 20 different shops, then you have averaged something like one new shop every 2 years.  Perhaps it's not my place to say it, but there might be something else wrong here...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you are 60 years old , had haved worked in 20 different shops , then you have averaged something like one new shop every 2 years .
Perhaps it 's not my place to say it , but there might be something else wrong here.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you are 60 years old, had haved worked in 20 different shops, then you have averaged something like one new shop every 2 years.
Perhaps it's not my place to say it, but there might be something else wrong here...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171880</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172510</id>
	<title>Obligatory Logan's Run Comment</title>
	<author>LoganPhyve</author>
	<datestamp>1265050500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Perhaps we should raise the age for which the older IT pros are sent to carousel.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Perhaps we should raise the age for which the older IT pros are sent to carousel .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Perhaps we should raise the age for which the older IT pros are sent to carousel.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31175534</id>
	<title>Re:lot of 50-something developers in my company</title>
	<author>mcgrew</author>
	<datestamp>1265017260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>I'd say the only drawback is you dont see people putting in more than 50-hour weeks at the most.</i></p><p>IMO working more than 40 hours a week is brain-dead stupid, unless you love your work more than you love your life. Why in the HELL would anybody sacrifice any more of their precious time than they have to? Just a couple of decades ago if your job required more than 40 hours it was referred to as a sweatshop. A hundred years ago when it was easier to exploit the poor, twelve hour seven day workweeks were the norm.</p><p>Things are going backwards, and you dumb kids are helping it happen. STOP IT!!!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd say the only drawback is you dont see people putting in more than 50-hour weeks at the most.IMO working more than 40 hours a week is brain-dead stupid , unless you love your work more than you love your life .
Why in the HELL would anybody sacrifice any more of their precious time than they have to ?
Just a couple of decades ago if your job required more than 40 hours it was referred to as a sweatshop .
A hundred years ago when it was easier to exploit the poor , twelve hour seven day workweeks were the norm.Things are going backwards , and you dumb kids are helping it happen .
STOP IT ! !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd say the only drawback is you dont see people putting in more than 50-hour weeks at the most.IMO working more than 40 hours a week is brain-dead stupid, unless you love your work more than you love your life.
Why in the HELL would anybody sacrifice any more of their precious time than they have to?
Just a couple of decades ago if your job required more than 40 hours it was referred to as a sweatshop.
A hundred years ago when it was easier to exploit the poor, twelve hour seven day workweeks were the norm.Things are going backwards, and you dumb kids are helping it happen.
STOP IT!!
!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172470</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31174146</id>
	<title>Re:Obivous Answer</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265055780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>It takes an extraordinary person, one having both breadth and depth of experience as well as innate clarity of thought, to design even a moderately large system that's simple and sufficient, modular and extensible. Such people aren't to be found in anyone's junior staff. They don't have the experience.</p></div><p>Agreed in entirety!  But design and architecture are one of the options I think of when I hear "beyond programming".  I don't want the smart people languishing as code monkeys forever, their insights are lost there to all but themselves.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It takes an extraordinary person , one having both breadth and depth of experience as well as innate clarity of thought , to design even a moderately large system that 's simple and sufficient , modular and extensible .
Such people are n't to be found in anyone 's junior staff .
They do n't have the experience.Agreed in entirety !
But design and architecture are one of the options I think of when I hear " beyond programming " .
I do n't want the smart people languishing as code monkeys forever , their insights are lost there to all but themselves .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It takes an extraordinary person, one having both breadth and depth of experience as well as innate clarity of thought, to design even a moderately large system that's simple and sufficient, modular and extensible.
Such people aren't to be found in anyone's junior staff.
They don't have the experience.Agreed in entirety!
But design and architecture are one of the options I think of when I hear "beyond programming".
I don't want the smart people languishing as code monkeys forever, their insights are lost there to all but themselves.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173060</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31209242</id>
	<title>Re:Youthful arrogance....</title>
	<author>Bill Dog</author>
	<datestamp>1266670320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>You don't remember what it's like to be 25? ALL young people are that arrogant, and think that their elders are stupid.</i></p><p>No, only those who are or will become politically Leftist think they know everything better. I.e. people with chronic poor judgment. Others of us had the frame of mind at 25 to revere the older devs and their seemingly bottomless depths of knowledge.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You do n't remember what it 's like to be 25 ?
ALL young people are that arrogant , and think that their elders are stupid.No , only those who are or will become politically Leftist think they know everything better .
I.e. people with chronic poor judgment .
Others of us had the frame of mind at 25 to revere the older devs and their seemingly bottomless depths of knowledge .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You don't remember what it's like to be 25?
ALL young people are that arrogant, and think that their elders are stupid.No, only those who are or will become politically Leftist think they know everything better.
I.e. people with chronic poor judgment.
Others of us had the frame of mind at 25 to revere the older devs and their seemingly bottomless depths of knowledge.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31174872</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172256</id>
	<title>Re:Obivous Answer</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265049720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>What about motivation? People tend to write more lines of code if they are motivated. I've written most of my lines of code driven by motivation of their usefulness rather than my age.<br> <br>
Although, at my age, I rather write more lines of code that do stuff for me quicker. Maybe I've become lazy AND old.</htmltext>
<tokenext>What about motivation ?
People tend to write more lines of code if they are motivated .
I 've written most of my lines of code driven by motivation of their usefulness rather than my age .
Although , at my age , I rather write more lines of code that do stuff for me quicker .
Maybe I 've become lazy AND old .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What about motivation?
People tend to write more lines of code if they are motivated.
I've written most of my lines of code driven by motivation of their usefulness rather than my age.
Although, at my age, I rather write more lines of code that do stuff for me quicker.
Maybe I've become lazy AND old.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171678</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31200974</id>
	<title>Older developers also have 'salary' experience</title>
	<author>blackfrancis75</author>
	<datestamp>1266602820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>When considering this phenomena, I think it's important to observe the following;<br>
During the tech boom of 2000, and another mini-boom after that, developer's salaries went up substantially.<br>
'Older' developers who were employed during this period became accustomed to this salary level, and *in general* have wage expectations at this higher level.<br>
It's difficult for hiring guys to convince older developers to work at lower post-recession rates.  It's easier to set the expectations of people new to the industry.</htmltext>
<tokenext>When considering this phenomena , I think it 's important to observe the following ; During the tech boom of 2000 , and another mini-boom after that , developer 's salaries went up substantially .
'Older ' developers who were employed during this period became accustomed to this salary level , and * in general * have wage expectations at this higher level .
It 's difficult for hiring guys to convince older developers to work at lower post-recession rates .
It 's easier to set the expectations of people new to the industry .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When considering this phenomena, I think it's important to observe the following;
During the tech boom of 2000, and another mini-boom after that, developer's salaries went up substantially.
'Older' developers who were employed during this period became accustomed to this salary level, and *in general* have wage expectations at this higher level.
It's difficult for hiring guys to convince older developers to work at lower post-recession rates.
It's easier to set the expectations of people new to the industry.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171928</id>
	<title>Forget age,</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265048700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>TFA is written by a girl!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>TFA is written by a girl !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>TFA is written by a girl!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171880</id>
	<title>jaded</title>
	<author>convolvatron</author>
	<datestamp>1265048520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>the problem with having older programmers like myself is that they are fully tired of being jerked around<br>by incompetent management. if you've worked in 20 shops, and run a few yourself, you're alot less<br>likely to happily pull an all nighter to try to get the release out the door. you understand<br>that this all could have been taken care of months ago, and you went to some pains to point that<br>out then.</p><p>the other kind of older programmer has just given up. they know better, but they understand<br>that bitching isn't going to solve anything and they need the health insurance. they look alot<br>less capable then they are because they just agree with everything and try to get out the door<br>by 5.</p><p>younger programmers dont know any better, they will believe whatever you say</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>the problem with having older programmers like myself is that they are fully tired of being jerked aroundby incompetent management .
if you 've worked in 20 shops , and run a few yourself , you 're alot lesslikely to happily pull an all nighter to try to get the release out the door .
you understandthat this all could have been taken care of months ago , and you went to some pains to point thatout then.the other kind of older programmer has just given up .
they know better , but they understandthat bitching is n't going to solve anything and they need the health insurance .
they look alotless capable then they are because they just agree with everything and try to get out the doorby 5.younger programmers dont know any better , they will believe whatever you say</tokentext>
<sentencetext>the problem with having older programmers like myself is that they are fully tired of being jerked aroundby incompetent management.
if you've worked in 20 shops, and run a few yourself, you're alot lesslikely to happily pull an all nighter to try to get the release out the door.
you understandthat this all could have been taken care of months ago, and you went to some pains to point thatout then.the other kind of older programmer has just given up.
they know better, but they understandthat bitching isn't going to solve anything and they need the health insurance.
they look alotless capable then they are because they just agree with everything and try to get out the doorby 5.younger programmers dont know any better, they will believe whatever you say</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172806</id>
	<title>Entire article is flawed</title>
	<author>bolthole</author>
	<datestamp>1265051280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The entire article is based on "rebutting" an unfounded premise: that something "pushes out" programmers older than 40.<br>This has not been proven by the article.<br>It makes an unfounded assumption, and then rambles on with more unfounded principles and guesses.<br>The writer (if not the editor) should be "encouraged" not to submit any more articles there.</p><p>data point: I have a degree in CS. I started my career as a programmer.</p><p>I dont *want to* be a programmer any more. (and I made that decision when I was 30, let alone 40)<br>Not because I'm no good at it: i'm actually a damn good programmer (*cough*). I just dont want to do it for 40 hours a week any more.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The entire article is based on " rebutting " an unfounded premise : that something " pushes out " programmers older than 40.This has not been proven by the article.It makes an unfounded assumption , and then rambles on with more unfounded principles and guesses.The writer ( if not the editor ) should be " encouraged " not to submit any more articles there.data point : I have a degree in CS .
I started my career as a programmer.I dont * want to * be a programmer any more .
( and I made that decision when I was 30 , let alone 40 ) Not because I 'm no good at it : i 'm actually a damn good programmer ( * cough * ) .
I just dont want to do it for 40 hours a week any more .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The entire article is based on "rebutting" an unfounded premise: that something "pushes out" programmers older than 40.This has not been proven by the article.It makes an unfounded assumption, and then rambles on with more unfounded principles and guesses.The writer (if not the editor) should be "encouraged" not to submit any more articles there.data point: I have a degree in CS.
I started my career as a programmer.I dont *want to* be a programmer any more.
(and I made that decision when I was 30, let alone 40)Not because I'm no good at it: i'm actually a damn good programmer (*cough*).
I just dont want to do it for 40 hours a week any more.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173956</id>
	<title>Re:I don't think experience is always better in CS</title>
	<author>ClosedSource</author>
	<datestamp>1265055120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, I don't think it's really age related, there are mistakes at every age. Look how dogmatic some people can be about Agile methods.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , I do n't think it 's really age related , there are mistakes at every age .
Look how dogmatic some people can be about Agile methods .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, I don't think it's really age related, there are mistakes at every age.
Look how dogmatic some people can be about Agile methods.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171964</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31176928</id>
	<title>Re:we just hired an older programmer</title>
	<author>Bardez</author>
	<datestamp>1265022420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>At 25, I would like to be considered for this "young blood" recruiting. Please to be contacting me for experience in the dot nets.</htmltext>
<tokenext>At 25 , I would like to be considered for this " young blood " recruiting .
Please to be contacting me for experience in the dot nets .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At 25, I would like to be considered for this "young blood" recruiting.
Please to be contacting me for experience in the dot nets.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173608</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172038</id>
	<title>This is news??</title>
	<author>filesiteguy</author>
	<datestamp>1265049060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I am 40 years old.<br><br>I was a programmer.<br><br>I'm now a manager of programmers and analysts.<br><br>Though there are still a few people my age and older doing programming, most move on to either management or line-operation positions. That is how it seems to have always been.  Yeah, I can still code and even review my staff's work on occasion, I find it more worthwhile to direct the team.<br><br>Could I get a new job in programming? Probably not. When I hire, I tend to look for recent college grads who can be molded (warped?) in my methods and processes. My manager (who's 67) thinks the same way.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I am 40 years old.I was a programmer.I 'm now a manager of programmers and analysts.Though there are still a few people my age and older doing programming , most move on to either management or line-operation positions .
That is how it seems to have always been .
Yeah , I can still code and even review my staff 's work on occasion , I find it more worthwhile to direct the team.Could I get a new job in programming ?
Probably not .
When I hire , I tend to look for recent college grads who can be molded ( warped ?
) in my methods and processes .
My manager ( who 's 67 ) thinks the same way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am 40 years old.I was a programmer.I'm now a manager of programmers and analysts.Though there are still a few people my age and older doing programming, most move on to either management or line-operation positions.
That is how it seems to have always been.
Yeah, I can still code and even review my staff's work on occasion, I find it more worthwhile to direct the team.Could I get a new job in programming?
Probably not.
When I hire, I tend to look for recent college grads who can be molded (warped?
) in my methods and processes.
My manager (who's 67) thinks the same way.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31172954</id>
	<title>"All generalizations are false ..."</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265051700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The notion that you can't develop software at an advanced age is demonstrably false.</p><p>The periodic stories on Slashdot about programming careers being over when you get too old (over 25??) are amusing to me. I am 63, and in the last year have gone from C programming to Java programming and am having a great time. I work in the space industry where domain knowledge counts a great deal, so I find I am a sought-after, scarce commodity. I am deveoping GPS navigation systems and Kalman filters for space vehicles. I am hardly unique in my shop.</p><p>That said, pressure to leave technical work and move to management as one ages is strong. I made a career decision to avoid management but have had non-management technical lead positions for many years. The key to doing this is to keep one's expertise fresh. After a few years out of hands-on software development it is very hard to get back in. Another tactic I have used to keep going is to work on open source software after hours, which has kept me going during times my work was less technical.</p><p>While there is no doubt that mental capacity diminishes with age, there is a use it-or-lose it aspect to programming facility (or other mental skills) as you age. Voluntarily giving up technical work is a far bigger factor than diminished capacity with age. I make a point of constantly tackling tough intellectual problems, and, equally important, keep physically fit. You can find me at the gym or on the running trail daily. It's tough to keep sharp mentally if you don't stay fit, sorry Slashdotters!</p><p>There are a lot of things that do get tougher mentally and physically as you age for sure, but self-imposed and unjustified expectations of decline are the main cause of loss of ability.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The notion that you ca n't develop software at an advanced age is demonstrably false.The periodic stories on Slashdot about programming careers being over when you get too old ( over 25 ? ?
) are amusing to me .
I am 63 , and in the last year have gone from C programming to Java programming and am having a great time .
I work in the space industry where domain knowledge counts a great deal , so I find I am a sought-after , scarce commodity .
I am deveoping GPS navigation systems and Kalman filters for space vehicles .
I am hardly unique in my shop.That said , pressure to leave technical work and move to management as one ages is strong .
I made a career decision to avoid management but have had non-management technical lead positions for many years .
The key to doing this is to keep one 's expertise fresh .
After a few years out of hands-on software development it is very hard to get back in .
Another tactic I have used to keep going is to work on open source software after hours , which has kept me going during times my work was less technical.While there is no doubt that mental capacity diminishes with age , there is a use it-or-lose it aspect to programming facility ( or other mental skills ) as you age .
Voluntarily giving up technical work is a far bigger factor than diminished capacity with age .
I make a point of constantly tackling tough intellectual problems , and , equally important , keep physically fit .
You can find me at the gym or on the running trail daily .
It 's tough to keep sharp mentally if you do n't stay fit , sorry Slashdotters ! There are a lot of things that do get tougher mentally and physically as you age for sure , but self-imposed and unjustified expectations of decline are the main cause of loss of ability .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The notion that you can't develop software at an advanced age is demonstrably false.The periodic stories on Slashdot about programming careers being over when you get too old (over 25??
) are amusing to me.
I am 63, and in the last year have gone from C programming to Java programming and am having a great time.
I work in the space industry where domain knowledge counts a great deal, so I find I am a sought-after, scarce commodity.
I am deveoping GPS navigation systems and Kalman filters for space vehicles.
I am hardly unique in my shop.That said, pressure to leave technical work and move to management as one ages is strong.
I made a career decision to avoid management but have had non-management technical lead positions for many years.
The key to doing this is to keep one's expertise fresh.
After a few years out of hands-on software development it is very hard to get back in.
Another tactic I have used to keep going is to work on open source software after hours, which has kept me going during times my work was less technical.While there is no doubt that mental capacity diminishes with age, there is a use it-or-lose it aspect to programming facility (or other mental skills) as you age.
Voluntarily giving up technical work is a far bigger factor than diminished capacity with age.
I make a point of constantly tackling tough intellectual problems, and, equally important, keep physically fit.
You can find me at the gym or on the running trail daily.
It's tough to keep sharp mentally if you don't stay fit, sorry Slashdotters!There are a lot of things that do get tougher mentally and physically as you age for sure, but self-imposed and unjustified expectations of decline are the main cause of loss of ability.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31173060</id>
	<title>Re:Obivous Answer</title>
	<author>starfishsystems</author>
	<datestamp>1265052060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>"Beyond" programming?
<br> <br>
When I look around, the most limiting factor I see in any enterprise computing environment is the quality of software in use.  Multiple teams of people and multiple layers of management are required just to keep it working.  Any upgrade plan sends ripples of alarm racing back and forth.  And why is there such a status quo of vast inefficiency?  <i>Because software is as complex and flawed a contraption as inexperienced programmers can make it.</i>
<br> <br>
It takes an extraordinary person, one having both breadth and depth of experience as well as innate clarity of thought, to design even a moderately large system that's simple and sufficient, modular and extensible.  Such people aren't to be found in anyone's junior staff.  They don't have the experience.  And their talents are lost if they should move into management or some other career.
<br> <br>
It's not a question of "beyond" where programming is concerned.  Unlike any other field, the medium in which we work imposes no ceiling on what we can do with it, G&#246;del incompleteness notwithstanding.  There is no "beyond".
<br> <br>
This is such an elementary insight.  Since the field itself is not a constraint, what we can achieve is constrained by two factors: our own competence in the field, and time.  Given two people of the same natural ability, the one with more experience will be more competent than the one with less experience.  That's because, in effect, the experienced one has already put in the time.
<br> <br>
Of course, inexperienced people might not know this.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" Beyond " programming ?
When I look around , the most limiting factor I see in any enterprise computing environment is the quality of software in use .
Multiple teams of people and multiple layers of management are required just to keep it working .
Any upgrade plan sends ripples of alarm racing back and forth .
And why is there such a status quo of vast inefficiency ?
Because software is as complex and flawed a contraption as inexperienced programmers can make it .
It takes an extraordinary person , one having both breadth and depth of experience as well as innate clarity of thought , to design even a moderately large system that 's simple and sufficient , modular and extensible .
Such people are n't to be found in anyone 's junior staff .
They do n't have the experience .
And their talents are lost if they should move into management or some other career .
It 's not a question of " beyond " where programming is concerned .
Unlike any other field , the medium in which we work imposes no ceiling on what we can do with it , G   del incompleteness notwithstanding .
There is no " beyond " .
This is such an elementary insight .
Since the field itself is not a constraint , what we can achieve is constrained by two factors : our own competence in the field , and time .
Given two people of the same natural ability , the one with more experience will be more competent than the one with less experience .
That 's because , in effect , the experienced one has already put in the time .
Of course , inexperienced people might not know this .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Beyond" programming?
When I look around, the most limiting factor I see in any enterprise computing environment is the quality of software in use.
Multiple teams of people and multiple layers of management are required just to keep it working.
Any upgrade plan sends ripples of alarm racing back and forth.
And why is there such a status quo of vast inefficiency?
Because software is as complex and flawed a contraption as inexperienced programmers can make it.
It takes an extraordinary person, one having both breadth and depth of experience as well as innate clarity of thought, to design even a moderately large system that's simple and sufficient, modular and extensible.
Such people aren't to be found in anyone's junior staff.
They don't have the experience.
And their talents are lost if they should move into management or some other career.
It's not a question of "beyond" where programming is concerned.
Unlike any other field, the medium in which we work imposes no ceiling on what we can do with it, Gödel incompleteness notwithstanding.
There is no "beyond".
This is such an elementary insight.
Since the field itself is not a constraint, what we can achieve is constrained by two factors: our own competence in the field, and time.
Given two people of the same natural ability, the one with more experience will be more competent than the one with less experience.
That's because, in effect, the experienced one has already put in the time.
Of course, inexperienced people might not know this.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_17_1642213.31171678</parent>
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