<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_02_12_0514249</id>
	<title>How Easy Is It To Cheat In CS?</title>
	<author>timothy</author>
	<datestamp>1265980320000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>Pinky3 writes <i>"The New York Times has an article on <a href="http://bayarea.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/11/heading-off-the-temptation-to-cheat-in-computer-science-classes-at-stanford/">cheating in CS at Stanford</a>. Here is a classic quote from one student: 'I wasn't even thinking of how it [sic] easy it would for me to be caught,' he said.  One interesting strategy discussed is for the professor to make the final count for more of the final grade each time cheating is discovered.  Share your experiences as a student and/or as an instructor."</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>Pinky3 writes " The New York Times has an article on cheating in CS at Stanford .
Here is a classic quote from one student : 'I was n't even thinking of how it [ sic ] easy it would for me to be caught, ' he said .
One interesting strategy discussed is for the professor to make the final count for more of the final grade each time cheating is discovered .
Share your experiences as a student and/or as an instructor .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Pinky3 writes "The New York Times has an article on cheating in CS at Stanford.
Here is a classic quote from one student: 'I wasn't even thinking of how it [sic] easy it would for me to be caught,' he said.
One interesting strategy discussed is for the professor to make the final count for more of the final grade each time cheating is discovered.
Share your experiences as a student and/or as an instructor.
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115382</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>serialband</author>
	<datestamp>1265999640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p><div class="quote"><p>Besides, how many ways can you write a QuickSort?</p></div><p>When I was grading programming homework a decade or two ago (theoretical physics, oddly enough) it was obvious when people shared their code. The use of spaces, indentation, variable names, curly braces etc. really made each assignment unique, and the people who resorted in copying someone's code almost never bothered to make any changes at all. My solution was to give the first assignment turned in whatever grade it deserved, and each subsequent copy a 0, and that seemed to make short work of the practice. At my current university the response would be significantly harsher.</p></div><p>I second that.  You'd be amazed at how many different styles the code will look.  Duplicates can only implicate them as likely cheaters.  I graded math assigments too, and I was amazed that each student turned in differently structured work to arrived at an answer.  I was also able to immediately spot the duplicates, even after I had gone past and corrected dozens of other papers.  They stick out like sore thumbs.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Besides , how many ways can you write a QuickSort ? When I was grading programming homework a decade or two ago ( theoretical physics , oddly enough ) it was obvious when people shared their code .
The use of spaces , indentation , variable names , curly braces etc .
really made each assignment unique , and the people who resorted in copying someone 's code almost never bothered to make any changes at all .
My solution was to give the first assignment turned in whatever grade it deserved , and each subsequent copy a 0 , and that seemed to make short work of the practice .
At my current university the response would be significantly harsher.I second that .
You 'd be amazed at how many different styles the code will look .
Duplicates can only implicate them as likely cheaters .
I graded math assigments too , and I was amazed that each student turned in differently structured work to arrived at an answer .
I was also able to immediately spot the duplicates , even after I had gone past and corrected dozens of other papers .
They stick out like sore thumbs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Besides, how many ways can you write a QuickSort?When I was grading programming homework a decade or two ago (theoretical physics, oddly enough) it was obvious when people shared their code.
The use of spaces, indentation, variable names, curly braces etc.
really made each assignment unique, and the people who resorted in copying someone's code almost never bothered to make any changes at all.
My solution was to give the first assignment turned in whatever grade it deserved, and each subsequent copy a 0, and that seemed to make short work of the practice.
At my current university the response would be significantly harsher.I second that.
You'd be amazed at how many different styles the code will look.
Duplicates can only implicate them as likely cheaters.
I graded math assigments too, and I was amazed that each student turned in differently structured work to arrived at an answer.
I was also able to immediately spot the duplicates, even after I had gone past and corrected dozens of other papers.
They stick out like sore thumbs.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112868</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114650</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>VGPowerlord</author>
	<datestamp>1265996760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>When I was grading programming homework a decade or two ago (theoretical physics, oddly enough) it was obvious when people shared their code. The use of spaces, indentation, variable names, curly braces etc. really made each assignment unique, and the people who resorted in copying someone's code almost never bothered to make any changes at all. My solution was to give the first assignment turned in whatever grade it deserved, and each subsequent copy a 0, and that seemed to make short work of the practice. At my current university the response would be significantly harsher.</p></div></blockquote><p>In college I've had programming instructors who insisted that things had to appear in a specific order.</p><p>For instance, in a class meant to teach OO concepts using Java, you had to have the code in the following order.<br>(If you're a C# person, static final is identical to static const, while final may is identical to readonly or const depending on whether a value is specified inline or not.)</p><blockquote><div><p> <tt>package statement<br>import statements<br>
&nbsp; <br>class {<br>
&nbsp; <br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; public static final variables (alphabetically ordered)<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; protected static final variables (alphabetically ordered)<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; private static final variables (alphabetically ordered)<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; public static variables (alphabetically ordered)<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; protected static variables (alphabetically ordered)<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; private static variables (alphabetically ordered)<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; public final variables (alphabetically ordered)<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; protected final variables (alphabetically ordered)<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; private final variables (alphabetically ordered)<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; public variables (alphabetically ordered)<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; protected variables (alphabetically ordered)<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; private variables (alphabetically ordered)<br>
&nbsp; <br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; public static methods (alphabetically ordered)<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; protected static methods (alphabetically ordered)<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; private static methods (alphabetically ordered)<br>
&nbsp; <br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; constructors (ordered by number of arguments, then variable names alphabetically)<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; getters/setters (ordered by field name)<br>
&nbsp; <br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; public methods (alphabetically ordered)<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; protected methods (alphabetically ordered)<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; private methods (alphabetically ordered)<br>}</tt></p></div> </blockquote><p>Variables were expected to be in alphabetical order.<br>Constant names had to be in uppercase, with \_ between word (IN\_THIS\_FORMAT).<br>Variable and method names had to be in Camel Case with a lower-case first letter (inThisFormat).<br>Indents had to be two spaces per indent-level.<br>I don't remember her exact rules for comments, though.</p><p>The catch was, this particular class also expected you to come up with your own application idea that used specific programming concepts, including writing a business justification for it.  So, it'd be pretty obvious if someone cheated, as the instructor didn't give any ideas in the actual assignment instructions.</p><p>(TL;DR)<br>The point of all this is that if the rules are strict enough, and the program is simple enough, there will eventually be overlap, even if unintended.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>When I was grading programming homework a decade or two ago ( theoretical physics , oddly enough ) it was obvious when people shared their code .
The use of spaces , indentation , variable names , curly braces etc .
really made each assignment unique , and the people who resorted in copying someone 's code almost never bothered to make any changes at all .
My solution was to give the first assignment turned in whatever grade it deserved , and each subsequent copy a 0 , and that seemed to make short work of the practice .
At my current university the response would be significantly harsher.In college I 've had programming instructors who insisted that things had to appear in a specific order.For instance , in a class meant to teach OO concepts using Java , you had to have the code in the following order .
( If you 're a C # person , static final is identical to static const , while final may is identical to readonly or const depending on whether a value is specified inline or not .
) package statementimport statements   class {       public static final variables ( alphabetically ordered )     protected static final variables ( alphabetically ordered )     private static final variables ( alphabetically ordered )     public static variables ( alphabetically ordered )     protected static variables ( alphabetically ordered )     private static variables ( alphabetically ordered )     public final variables ( alphabetically ordered )     protected final variables ( alphabetically ordered )     private final variables ( alphabetically ordered )     public variables ( alphabetically ordered )     protected variables ( alphabetically ordered )     private variables ( alphabetically ordered )       public static methods ( alphabetically ordered )     protected static methods ( alphabetically ordered )     private static methods ( alphabetically ordered )       constructors ( ordered by number of arguments , then variable names alphabetically )     getters/setters ( ordered by field name )       public methods ( alphabetically ordered )     protected methods ( alphabetically ordered )     private methods ( alphabetically ordered ) } Variables were expected to be in alphabetical order.Constant names had to be in uppercase , with \ _ between word ( IN \ _THIS \ _FORMAT ) .Variable and method names had to be in Camel Case with a lower-case first letter ( inThisFormat ) .Indents had to be two spaces per indent-level.I do n't remember her exact rules for comments , though.The catch was , this particular class also expected you to come up with your own application idea that used specific programming concepts , including writing a business justification for it .
So , it 'd be pretty obvious if someone cheated , as the instructor did n't give any ideas in the actual assignment instructions .
( TL ; DR ) The point of all this is that if the rules are strict enough , and the program is simple enough , there will eventually be overlap , even if unintended .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I was grading programming homework a decade or two ago (theoretical physics, oddly enough) it was obvious when people shared their code.
The use of spaces, indentation, variable names, curly braces etc.
really made each assignment unique, and the people who resorted in copying someone's code almost never bothered to make any changes at all.
My solution was to give the first assignment turned in whatever grade it deserved, and each subsequent copy a 0, and that seemed to make short work of the practice.
At my current university the response would be significantly harsher.In college I've had programming instructors who insisted that things had to appear in a specific order.For instance, in a class meant to teach OO concepts using Java, you had to have the code in the following order.
(If you're a C# person, static final is identical to static const, while final may is identical to readonly or const depending on whether a value is specified inline or not.
) package statementimport statements
  class {
  
    public static final variables (alphabetically ordered)
    protected static final variables (alphabetically ordered)
    private static final variables (alphabetically ordered)
    public static variables (alphabetically ordered)
    protected static variables (alphabetically ordered)
    private static variables (alphabetically ordered)
    public final variables (alphabetically ordered)
    protected final variables (alphabetically ordered)
    private final variables (alphabetically ordered)
    public variables (alphabetically ordered)
    protected variables (alphabetically ordered)
    private variables (alphabetically ordered)
  
    public static methods (alphabetically ordered)
    protected static methods (alphabetically ordered)
    private static methods (alphabetically ordered)
  
    constructors (ordered by number of arguments, then variable names alphabetically)
    getters/setters (ordered by field name)
  
    public methods (alphabetically ordered)
    protected methods (alphabetically ordered)
    private methods (alphabetically ordered)} Variables were expected to be in alphabetical order.Constant names had to be in uppercase, with \_ between word (IN\_THIS\_FORMAT).Variable and method names had to be in Camel Case with a lower-case first letter (inThisFormat).Indents had to be two spaces per indent-level.I don't remember her exact rules for comments, though.The catch was, this particular class also expected you to come up with your own application idea that used specific programming concepts, including writing a business justification for it.
So, it'd be pretty obvious if someone cheated, as the instructor didn't give any ideas in the actual assignment instructions.
(TL;DR)The point of all this is that if the rules are strict enough, and the program is simple enough, there will eventually be overlap, even if unintended.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112868</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113780</id>
	<title>Preventing cheating is easy</title>
	<author>MacAnkka</author>
	<datestamp>1265993640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In the university of applied sciences that I study at, it would be very hard to cheat during most programming courses.</p><p>I especially liked the first two Java courses that I took. They consisted of weekly coding assignments and two exams.</p><p>You had to show the finished assignments personally and the teacher would usually ask questions about the code. Why did you do it like this? What does this do? etc. It would become obvious if you didn't understand your own code</p><p>Then there were the two exams, one in the middle of the course, one in the end. <b>They were done on paper</b>. They included around five partially done programs that you had to finish. For example, in a course teaching object-oriented programming, there might be a small card game that you had to finish. The game logic would be there, but you'd have to write all the object-oriented code and a main function where you make it all work. The exam would also include printouts of the relevant API documentation.</p><p>Cheating would have been hard. Not everyone passed the course, but those that passed, with good grades, really did know how to program.</p><p>This all requires a very good teacher who actually cares how his students are doing, though.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In the university of applied sciences that I study at , it would be very hard to cheat during most programming courses.I especially liked the first two Java courses that I took .
They consisted of weekly coding assignments and two exams.You had to show the finished assignments personally and the teacher would usually ask questions about the code .
Why did you do it like this ?
What does this do ?
etc. It would become obvious if you did n't understand your own codeThen there were the two exams , one in the middle of the course , one in the end .
They were done on paper .
They included around five partially done programs that you had to finish .
For example , in a course teaching object-oriented programming , there might be a small card game that you had to finish .
The game logic would be there , but you 'd have to write all the object-oriented code and a main function where you make it all work .
The exam would also include printouts of the relevant API documentation.Cheating would have been hard .
Not everyone passed the course , but those that passed , with good grades , really did know how to program.This all requires a very good teacher who actually cares how his students are doing , though .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In the university of applied sciences that I study at, it would be very hard to cheat during most programming courses.I especially liked the first two Java courses that I took.
They consisted of weekly coding assignments and two exams.You had to show the finished assignments personally and the teacher would usually ask questions about the code.
Why did you do it like this?
What does this do?
etc. It would become obvious if you didn't understand your own codeThen there were the two exams, one in the middle of the course, one in the end.
They were done on paper.
They included around five partially done programs that you had to finish.
For example, in a course teaching object-oriented programming, there might be a small card game that you had to finish.
The game logic would be there, but you'd have to write all the object-oriented code and a main function where you make it all work.
The exam would also include printouts of the relevant API documentation.Cheating would have been hard.
Not everyone passed the course, but those that passed, with good grades, really did know how to program.This all requires a very good teacher who actually cares how his students are doing, though.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112700</id>
	<title>Learning to code</title>
	<author>Sam36</author>
	<datestamp>1265988900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I tried for years to learn how to program by copy and pasting examples of the internet. Didn't work very well in the end.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I tried for years to learn how to program by copy and pasting examples of the internet .
Did n't work very well in the end .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I tried for years to learn how to program by copy and pasting examples of the internet.
Didn't work very well in the end.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113080</id>
	<title>Counter Strike?</title>
	<author>lymond01</author>
	<datestamp>1265990700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I didn't even know professors were paying attention!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I did n't even know professors were paying attention !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I didn't even know professors were paying attention!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114116</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>Bob-taro</author>
	<datestamp>1265994840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>and the people who resorted in copying someone's code almost never bothered to make any changes at all.</p></div><p>Based on my experience as a T.A. for a programming course, it's probably not that they didn't bother to make any changes, but that they were afraid to make any.  If they understood the general syntax, they probably would have made a stab at doing their own work.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>and the people who resorted in copying someone 's code almost never bothered to make any changes at all.Based on my experience as a T.A .
for a programming course , it 's probably not that they did n't bother to make any changes , but that they were afraid to make any .
If they understood the general syntax , they probably would have made a stab at doing their own work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>and the people who resorted in copying someone's code almost never bothered to make any changes at all.Based on my experience as a T.A.
for a programming course, it's probably not that they didn't bother to make any changes, but that they were afraid to make any.
If they understood the general syntax, they probably would have made a stab at doing their own work.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112868</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31120232</id>
	<title>Re:Expelled</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265972520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At RPI where I went you automatically failed the course for cheating.  They're pretty good at catching people too, I got called in to my professor's office to explain why the system pulled up a match for some code in a project I handed in.  It was actually code that I had re-used from a project for another class and modified so nothing bad came of it but I was surprised it picked that up.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At RPI where I went you automatically failed the course for cheating .
They 're pretty good at catching people too , I got called in to my professor 's office to explain why the system pulled up a match for some code in a project I handed in .
It was actually code that I had re-used from a project for another class and modified so nothing bad came of it but I was surprised it picked that up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At RPI where I went you automatically failed the course for cheating.
They're pretty good at catching people too, I got called in to my professor's office to explain why the system pulled up a match for some code in a project I handed in.
It was actually code that I had re-used from a project for another class and modified so nothing bad came of it but I was surprised it picked that up.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31133016</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>LihTox</author>
	<datestamp>1266177960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And then there will be that one time when the company actually needs something new, and there is nobody to steal from....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And then there will be that one time when the company actually needs something new , and there is nobody to steal from... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And then there will be that one time when the company actually needs something new, and there is nobody to steal from....</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112158</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31118668</id>
	<title>Re:Very easy, and very easy to get caught</title>
	<author>sYn pHrEAk</author>
	<datestamp>1265968260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I realize that you wouldn't expect to see it every time, but if every student is writing a program that should do exactly the same thing, it has to be pretty likely that 2 or more of them will come up with very similar structure.  How can you really tell that it's cheating?  Especially if the professors are anything like mine where they tell you exactly how many variables, functions, arguments, etc you're supposed to have.  The more specific the assignment, the more likely that students will independently write very similar code.<br>
<br>
How many different ways can you write a C++ program that takes an integer between 0 and 255 and outputs it as 8 bits of binary, writing 3 functions: pow(int x, int y), validate(int x), and convert(int x)?</htmltext>
<tokenext>I realize that you would n't expect to see it every time , but if every student is writing a program that should do exactly the same thing , it has to be pretty likely that 2 or more of them will come up with very similar structure .
How can you really tell that it 's cheating ?
Especially if the professors are anything like mine where they tell you exactly how many variables , functions , arguments , etc you 're supposed to have .
The more specific the assignment , the more likely that students will independently write very similar code .
How many different ways can you write a C + + program that takes an integer between 0 and 255 and outputs it as 8 bits of binary , writing 3 functions : pow ( int x , int y ) , validate ( int x ) , and convert ( int x ) ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I realize that you wouldn't expect to see it every time, but if every student is writing a program that should do exactly the same thing, it has to be pretty likely that 2 or more of them will come up with very similar structure.
How can you really tell that it's cheating?
Especially if the professors are anything like mine where they tell you exactly how many variables, functions, arguments, etc you're supposed to have.
The more specific the assignment, the more likely that students will independently write very similar code.
How many different ways can you write a C++ program that takes an integer between 0 and 255 and outputs it as 8 bits of binary, writing 3 functions: pow(int x, int y), validate(int x), and convert(int x)?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31127062</id>
	<title>With A Purposeful Grimace</title>
	<author>jman.org</author>
	<datestamp>1266077760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>In the late 70's, one of my high school classes was a vocational IT study, located on a local Community College campus.  I was lucky, being in the 2nd year of the program; the 1st year the building trades class was still assembling the structure, and there was no link to the UI mainframe so the IT students just had bookwork.
<br> <br>
One part of the class was learning punch cards, so we had to re-type existing code.  That was really boring, so I'd figure out ways to fit song lyrics into the 80 available columns.
<br> <br>Though I didn't like all their tunes, "Godzilla" by Blue Oyster Cult was a favorite, so that's one of the ones that got entered.
<br> <br>
Of course I could never turn that work in.  But when grading time came, the teacher got all flustered, said he remembered seeing me tap away with all the other students, couldn't imagine what happened to the work, he must have lost it, really sorry, here's an "A" anyway.  OK?
<br> <br>
OK.
<br> <br>
So, did I cheat?  I really did learn to operate Mr. Hollerith's machine (and even got to use that skill later, after enlisting in USAF).  I just didn't actually push the same buttons as did the rest of the class.</htmltext>
<tokenext>In the late 70 's , one of my high school classes was a vocational IT study , located on a local Community College campus .
I was lucky , being in the 2nd year of the program ; the 1st year the building trades class was still assembling the structure , and there was no link to the UI mainframe so the IT students just had bookwork .
One part of the class was learning punch cards , so we had to re-type existing code .
That was really boring , so I 'd figure out ways to fit song lyrics into the 80 available columns .
Though I did n't like all their tunes , " Godzilla " by Blue Oyster Cult was a favorite , so that 's one of the ones that got entered .
Of course I could never turn that work in .
But when grading time came , the teacher got all flustered , said he remembered seeing me tap away with all the other students , could n't imagine what happened to the work , he must have lost it , really sorry , here 's an " A " anyway .
OK ? OK . So , did I cheat ?
I really did learn to operate Mr. Hollerith 's machine ( and even got to use that skill later , after enlisting in USAF ) .
I just did n't actually push the same buttons as did the rest of the class .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In the late 70's, one of my high school classes was a vocational IT study, located on a local Community College campus.
I was lucky, being in the 2nd year of the program; the 1st year the building trades class was still assembling the structure, and there was no link to the UI mainframe so the IT students just had bookwork.
One part of the class was learning punch cards, so we had to re-type existing code.
That was really boring, so I'd figure out ways to fit song lyrics into the 80 available columns.
Though I didn't like all their tunes, "Godzilla" by Blue Oyster Cult was a favorite, so that's one of the ones that got entered.
Of course I could never turn that work in.
But when grading time came, the teacher got all flustered, said he remembered seeing me tap away with all the other students, couldn't imagine what happened to the work, he must have lost it, really sorry, here's an "A" anyway.
OK?
 
OK.
 
So, did I cheat?
I really did learn to operate Mr. Hollerith's machine (and even got to use that skill later, after enlisting in USAF).
I just didn't actually push the same buttons as did the rest of the class.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112644</id>
	<title>Cheaters are foolish</title>
	<author>Trivial Solutions</author>
	<datestamp>1265988660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You can only cheat yourself.

Do you really want a job you're not qualified for?

Do you really want to go to a school you're not qualified for.

There's no reason to cheat unless you want to end-up in over your head, which is foolish if you ask me.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You can only cheat yourself .
Do you really want a job you 're not qualified for ?
Do you really want to go to a school you 're not qualified for .
There 's no reason to cheat unless you want to end-up in over your head , which is foolish if you ask me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You can only cheat yourself.
Do you really want a job you're not qualified for?
Do you really want to go to a school you're not qualified for.
There's no reason to cheat unless you want to end-up in over your head, which is foolish if you ask me.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31118394</id>
	<title>Re:No outside help ?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265967600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree - that description is lacking.  What was meant was "get EXCESSIVE outside help".  As I tell my students: Discuss concepts all you want.  It crosses the line when you show somebody your code or tell them the command to write.</p><p>Since students are loathe to speak specifics, it usually comes down to "don't share your code".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree - that description is lacking .
What was meant was " get EXCESSIVE outside help " .
As I tell my students : Discuss concepts all you want .
It crosses the line when you show somebody your code or tell them the command to write.Since students are loathe to speak specifics , it usually comes down to " do n't share your code " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree - that description is lacking.
What was meant was "get EXCESSIVE outside help".
As I tell my students: Discuss concepts all you want.
It crosses the line when you show somebody your code or tell them the command to write.Since students are loathe to speak specifics, it usually comes down to "don't share your code".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117104</id>
	<title>Re:Half of the story.</title>
	<author>Ephemeriis</author>
	<datestamp>1266007020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>It's much easier for people to cheat in group projects than on any particular assignment. Nearing the end of my undergrad I specifically choose courses that didn't involve group projects because I got tired of doing other people's work (while they went to class).</p></div><p>Yup.</p><p>Always hated group assignments...  There would always be at least one person who didn't pull their own weight.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's much easier for people to cheat in group projects than on any particular assignment .
Nearing the end of my undergrad I specifically choose courses that did n't involve group projects because I got tired of doing other people 's work ( while they went to class ) .Yup.Always hated group assignments... There would always be at least one person who did n't pull their own weight .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's much easier for people to cheat in group projects than on any particular assignment.
Nearing the end of my undergrad I specifically choose courses that didn't involve group projects because I got tired of doing other people's work (while they went to class).Yup.Always hated group assignments...  There would always be at least one person who didn't pull their own weight.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111928</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113214</id>
	<title>Re:Very easy, and very easy to get caught</title>
	<author>cervo</author>
	<datestamp>1265991300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The problem with these plagiarism detectors is that often for simple programs there are common ways of doing it that everyone knows.  Ie for selection sort, how many ways can you write it?  If it keeps growing based on other people's submissions, I'm sure someone wrote it similar to me.  Also java.sun.com/tutorial is full of examples.  Quite often you just cut/paste and modify an example that does what you want.  Even if you were to write per scratch from the tutorial you'd end up with something similar to their example.<br> <br>
Quite often in programming you see many small example programs/problems through books/tutorials and string them all together in one program to do what you want.  If you all used the same textbook, it is highly likely that some portions of the code will be identical.  Ie eliminate duplicates from a list...Well you have to sort it first, the textbook has several sorts, but in class Quicksort was discussed as the quickest and the textbook has an implementation.  Now any halfway intelligent student will just copy the book's quick sort implementation.  Is that cheating?  I don't think so.  Even if I was to write a bubblesort from scratch, it would probably be something that I am remembering from some CS textbook or another.  Is that cheating?  Again I don't think so.<br> <br>
I tell my friend Jim to do the program for me.  Is that cheating?  Yes.  Can you always tell by using a cheating program?  I don't think so.  Take the sorting algorithms, they often have the same loops, just slightly different indexing/variable names between them.  It seems like a cheating program would flag up false positives.<br> <br>
I think a better approach is to assign a program.  And then to ask questions about it on the exam.  If someone has no clue how their code works, it is a sign that something is wrong.  That combined with a positive on a cheating program may be enough to merit a conviction.  And on the bright side, people who did the assignment would see extra rewards for doing the homework.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem with these plagiarism detectors is that often for simple programs there are common ways of doing it that everyone knows .
Ie for selection sort , how many ways can you write it ?
If it keeps growing based on other people 's submissions , I 'm sure someone wrote it similar to me .
Also java.sun.com/tutorial is full of examples .
Quite often you just cut/paste and modify an example that does what you want .
Even if you were to write per scratch from the tutorial you 'd end up with something similar to their example .
Quite often in programming you see many small example programs/problems through books/tutorials and string them all together in one program to do what you want .
If you all used the same textbook , it is highly likely that some portions of the code will be identical .
Ie eliminate duplicates from a list...Well you have to sort it first , the textbook has several sorts , but in class Quicksort was discussed as the quickest and the textbook has an implementation .
Now any halfway intelligent student will just copy the book 's quick sort implementation .
Is that cheating ?
I do n't think so .
Even if I was to write a bubblesort from scratch , it would probably be something that I am remembering from some CS textbook or another .
Is that cheating ?
Again I do n't think so .
I tell my friend Jim to do the program for me .
Is that cheating ?
Yes. Can you always tell by using a cheating program ?
I do n't think so .
Take the sorting algorithms , they often have the same loops , just slightly different indexing/variable names between them .
It seems like a cheating program would flag up false positives .
I think a better approach is to assign a program .
And then to ask questions about it on the exam .
If someone has no clue how their code works , it is a sign that something is wrong .
That combined with a positive on a cheating program may be enough to merit a conviction .
And on the bright side , people who did the assignment would see extra rewards for doing the homework .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem with these plagiarism detectors is that often for simple programs there are common ways of doing it that everyone knows.
Ie for selection sort, how many ways can you write it?
If it keeps growing based on other people's submissions, I'm sure someone wrote it similar to me.
Also java.sun.com/tutorial is full of examples.
Quite often you just cut/paste and modify an example that does what you want.
Even if you were to write per scratch from the tutorial you'd end up with something similar to their example.
Quite often in programming you see many small example programs/problems through books/tutorials and string them all together in one program to do what you want.
If you all used the same textbook, it is highly likely that some portions of the code will be identical.
Ie eliminate duplicates from a list...Well you have to sort it first, the textbook has several sorts, but in class Quicksort was discussed as the quickest and the textbook has an implementation.
Now any halfway intelligent student will just copy the book's quick sort implementation.
Is that cheating?
I don't think so.
Even if I was to write a bubblesort from scratch, it would probably be something that I am remembering from some CS textbook or another.
Is that cheating?
Again I don't think so.
I tell my friend Jim to do the program for me.
Is that cheating?
Yes.  Can you always tell by using a cheating program?
I don't think so.
Take the sorting algorithms, they often have the same loops, just slightly different indexing/variable names between them.
It seems like a cheating program would flag up false positives.
I think a better approach is to assign a program.
And then to ask questions about it on the exam.
If someone has no clue how their code works, it is a sign that something is wrong.
That combined with a positive on a cheating program may be enough to merit a conviction.
And on the bright side, people who did the assignment would see extra rewards for doing the homework.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31116228</id>
	<title>The idiots will get caught</title>
	<author>PPH</author>
	<datestamp>1266002700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>TFA cites a few techniques like "adding a few keystrokes".
</p><p>Come on, folks. With global search and replace on names, one click source reformatting and refactoring, only the idiots will get caught.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>TFA cites a few techniques like " adding a few keystrokes " .
Come on , folks .
With global search and replace on names , one click source reformatting and refactoring , only the idiots will get caught .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>TFA cites a few techniques like "adding a few keystrokes".
Come on, folks.
With global search and replace on names, one click source reformatting and refactoring, only the idiots will get caught.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31116090</id>
	<title>Re:So funny..</title>
	<author>jim\_deane</author>
	<datestamp>1266002280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Why people would even try cheating in a CS class at a decent university is a mystery to me.  At my school in Cambridge, Mass. (not MIT, the other one), every line of code turned in for intro CS classes was run through a code analysis and similarity detection system.  </p></div><p>I wonder what it was like for the first two or three years using that detection system.  It must have been rough, expelling entire Intro to CS classes from the university after their "Hello World" assignment.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why people would even try cheating in a CS class at a decent university is a mystery to me .
At my school in Cambridge , Mass .
( not MIT , the other one ) , every line of code turned in for intro CS classes was run through a code analysis and similarity detection system .
I wonder what it was like for the first two or three years using that detection system .
It must have been rough , expelling entire Intro to CS classes from the university after their " Hello World " assignment .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why people would even try cheating in a CS class at a decent university is a mystery to me.
At my school in Cambridge, Mass.
(not MIT, the other one), every line of code turned in for intro CS classes was run through a code analysis and similarity detection system.
I wonder what it was like for the first two or three years using that detection system.
It must have been rough, expelling entire Intro to CS classes from the university after their "Hello World" assignment.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112022</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115270</id>
	<title>My own Turbo Pascal story</title>
	<author>rfc1394</author>
	<datestamp>1265999160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would offer help to other students at this one college I would visit, and this one guy had a problem with his Turbo Pascal program (version 3) that it wouldn't compile and he couldn't figure out why.  This was a fairly long program, say on the order of 20 screens (about 1,000 lines) so it wasn't clearly obvious.  So I ask him if I can make a few changes.  I go in and I find a point where the code should be complete, e.g. no pending procedures, and I insert a 'BEGIN END.'  I exit and compile and the compile works.  So I remove this and I go further down, insert BEGIN END., exit and try a compile,  and this time it faults with an error, the same one he's getting.    So I go upward and try again, and eventually - meaning in about 3 minutes - I find the problem and it was a very subtle bug even I didn't spot, he had left an open brace { in his code, so, it ignored everything to the next close brace, or the end of the program, (I forget which), because it treated everything from that point on until the brace was closed (or the end of the program), as a comment.</p><p>The guy was absolutely amazed that I found the bug as fast as I had.  He had been spending something over 2 hours trying to find it, and not succeeding.  I found it in less than five minutes. It could be that I was a fresh pair of eyes, or it might be I'd had over 3 years (then) experience doing programming didn't hurt either...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would offer help to other students at this one college I would visit , and this one guy had a problem with his Turbo Pascal program ( version 3 ) that it would n't compile and he could n't figure out why .
This was a fairly long program , say on the order of 20 screens ( about 1,000 lines ) so it was n't clearly obvious .
So I ask him if I can make a few changes .
I go in and I find a point where the code should be complete , e.g .
no pending procedures , and I insert a 'BEGIN END .
' I exit and compile and the compile works .
So I remove this and I go further down , insert BEGIN END. , exit and try a compile , and this time it faults with an error , the same one he 's getting .
So I go upward and try again , and eventually - meaning in about 3 minutes - I find the problem and it was a very subtle bug even I did n't spot , he had left an open brace { in his code , so , it ignored everything to the next close brace , or the end of the program , ( I forget which ) , because it treated everything from that point on until the brace was closed ( or the end of the program ) , as a comment.The guy was absolutely amazed that I found the bug as fast as I had .
He had been spending something over 2 hours trying to find it , and not succeeding .
I found it in less than five minutes .
It could be that I was a fresh pair of eyes , or it might be I 'd had over 3 years ( then ) experience doing programming did n't hurt either.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would offer help to other students at this one college I would visit, and this one guy had a problem with his Turbo Pascal program (version 3) that it wouldn't compile and he couldn't figure out why.
This was a fairly long program, say on the order of 20 screens (about 1,000 lines) so it wasn't clearly obvious.
So I ask him if I can make a few changes.
I go in and I find a point where the code should be complete, e.g.
no pending procedures, and I insert a 'BEGIN END.
'  I exit and compile and the compile works.
So I remove this and I go further down, insert BEGIN END., exit and try a compile,  and this time it faults with an error, the same one he's getting.
So I go upward and try again, and eventually - meaning in about 3 minutes - I find the problem and it was a very subtle bug even I didn't spot, he had left an open brace { in his code, so, it ignored everything to the next close brace, or the end of the program, (I forget which), because it treated everything from that point on until the brace was closed (or the end of the program), as a comment.The guy was absolutely amazed that I found the bug as fast as I had.
He had been spending something over 2 hours trying to find it, and not succeeding.
I found it in less than five minutes.
It could be that I was a fresh pair of eyes, or it might be I'd had over 3 years (then) experience doing programming didn't hurt either...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113402</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113404</id>
	<title>Re:Expelled</title>
	<author>neosaurus</author>
	<datestamp>1265992200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I was a Teaching Assistant for a freshman year C++ course for two years in grad school. We divided the assignment scores of the students we caught cheating by 1000. Btw, we used Moss [http://theory.stanford.edu/~aiken/moss/] as well.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I was a Teaching Assistant for a freshman year C + + course for two years in grad school .
We divided the assignment scores of the students we caught cheating by 1000 .
Btw , we used Moss [ http : //theory.stanford.edu/ ~ aiken/moss/ ] as well .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was a Teaching Assistant for a freshman year C++ course for two years in grad school.
We divided the assignment scores of the students we caught cheating by 1000.
Btw, we used Moss [http://theory.stanford.edu/~aiken/moss/] as well.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112550</id>
	<title>i would love for the final to count more....</title>
	<author>happyjack27</author>
	<datestamp>1265988300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Make it count for ALL of the final grade then I don't have to do any homework!  Thanks cheaters!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Make it count for ALL of the final grade then I do n't have to do any homework !
Thanks cheaters !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Make it count for ALL of the final grade then I don't have to do any homework!
Thanks cheaters!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31118096</id>
	<title>Re:I can has degree nao?</title>
	<author>Ma8thew</author>
	<datestamp>1265966880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Care to share the university you attended with us?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Care to share the university you attended with us ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Care to share the university you attended with us?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112470</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114308</id>
	<title>Paying for it</title>
	<author>TheEvilOverlord</author>
	<datestamp>1265995560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Most of the comments here seem to be talking about code copying/sharing/theft.</p><p>However this isn't the only way to get code.  When I was doing my CS degree I was know as being someone to ask for help when stuck, and people frequently did.  This lead to me being asked several times if I'd accept payment to write the assignment for them; of course I declined.  These people clearly didn't have the first idea how to construct a program, yet several seemed to pass the course, which always amazed me.  That was a few years ago now, and I expect it's only got easier with sites like RentACoder, for people with money to buy their way through courses.  A very talented and poor friend of mine on an english course got offered alot of money to write someone's dissertation.</p><p>The only way people get caught is if someone grasses them up.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Most of the comments here seem to be talking about code copying/sharing/theft.However this is n't the only way to get code .
When I was doing my CS degree I was know as being someone to ask for help when stuck , and people frequently did .
This lead to me being asked several times if I 'd accept payment to write the assignment for them ; of course I declined .
These people clearly did n't have the first idea how to construct a program , yet several seemed to pass the course , which always amazed me .
That was a few years ago now , and I expect it 's only got easier with sites like RentACoder , for people with money to buy their way through courses .
A very talented and poor friend of mine on an english course got offered alot of money to write someone 's dissertation.The only way people get caught is if someone grasses them up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most of the comments here seem to be talking about code copying/sharing/theft.However this isn't the only way to get code.
When I was doing my CS degree I was know as being someone to ask for help when stuck, and people frequently did.
This lead to me being asked several times if I'd accept payment to write the assignment for them; of course I declined.
These people clearly didn't have the first idea how to construct a program, yet several seemed to pass the course, which always amazed me.
That was a few years ago now, and I expect it's only got easier with sites like RentACoder, for people with money to buy their way through courses.
A very talented and poor friend of mine on an english course got offered alot of money to write someone's dissertation.The only way people get caught is if someone grasses them up.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113746</id>
	<title>Re:Why cheat at all?</title>
	<author>TerranFury</author>
	<datestamp>1265993460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Troll, Insightful?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Troll , Insightful ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Troll, Insightful?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111988</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114798</id>
	<title>I did a couple of times</title>
	<author>rfc1394</author>
	<datestamp>1265997300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I won't say where, but a couple of times I did someone else's college computer programming assignment for them, making sure I 'dumbed down' the quality of the work so that it wouldn't be too obvious that someone who has a considerable amount of experience (over 5 years, then) did it, as opposed to a new student. What can I say other than I was broke and needed eating money, and as with today, it was just as hard then to get a job programming without a degree as it is now.  At least it's over 20 years ago so the statute of limitations applies, presuming I did anything illegal.  I can admit, however, I think I actually learned a few things from having to do the assignment.</p><p>
"About the things I've done in the past, I hope either they've been forgotten, or if not forgotten, covered by the Statute of Limitations."<br>&mdash; Robert A. Heinlein</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I wo n't say where , but a couple of times I did someone else 's college computer programming assignment for them , making sure I 'dumbed down ' the quality of the work so that it would n't be too obvious that someone who has a considerable amount of experience ( over 5 years , then ) did it , as opposed to a new student .
What can I say other than I was broke and needed eating money , and as with today , it was just as hard then to get a job programming without a degree as it is now .
At least it 's over 20 years ago so the statute of limitations applies , presuming I did anything illegal .
I can admit , however , I think I actually learned a few things from having to do the assignment .
" About the things I 've done in the past , I hope either they 've been forgotten , or if not forgotten , covered by the Statute of Limitations .
"    Robert A. Heinlein</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I won't say where, but a couple of times I did someone else's college computer programming assignment for them, making sure I 'dumbed down' the quality of the work so that it wouldn't be too obvious that someone who has a considerable amount of experience (over 5 years, then) did it, as opposed to a new student.
What can I say other than I was broke and needed eating money, and as with today, it was just as hard then to get a job programming without a degree as it is now.
At least it's over 20 years ago so the statute of limitations applies, presuming I did anything illegal.
I can admit, however, I think I actually learned a few things from having to do the assignment.
"About the things I've done in the past, I hope either they've been forgotten, or if not forgotten, covered by the Statute of Limitations.
"— Robert A. Heinlein</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113248</id>
	<title>Duh.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265991420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Cheating is easy in almost all videogames (PC or Console) these days, let alone ones from 10years ago...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Cheating is easy in almost all videogames ( PC or Console ) these days , let alone ones from 10years ago.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Cheating is easy in almost all videogames (PC or Console) these days, let alone ones from 10years ago...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114694</id>
	<title>Re:A ramble from the TAs view</title>
	<author>Nov Voc</author>
	<datestamp>1265996880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>And a related ramble from a current CS student's point of view...<br> <br>
These students aren't cheating because of pressure, or because they don't get support. They are cheating because they want a degree to get a job to get paid, without actually doing real work.<br> <br> In my last programming class, which was a simple structure and algorithm introduction, there were groups of students that shared code on every assignment. Was there not enough support? The only time I'd emailed the professor, he spent fifteen minutes helping me at <i>two in the morning</i>, far beyond what anyone would expect. Was there too much pressure? The computer science requirements here meant they were taking maybe five courses per semester, which were largely just "fluff" sorts of general education requirement courses. A lot of courses didn't even have homework, or an exam tougher than a few multiple choice questions. Most people that showed up to class didn't do anything more than fill the chairs. <br> <br>Not to seem like a pessimist, but students now are <i>lazy</i>, not strained. I know so many students that will gladly beg the instructor for extensions and extra credit at any opportunity, because they spent the weekend playing Call of Duty instead of doing the homework.</htmltext>
<tokenext>And a related ramble from a current CS student 's point of view.. . These students are n't cheating because of pressure , or because they do n't get support .
They are cheating because they want a degree to get a job to get paid , without actually doing real work .
In my last programming class , which was a simple structure and algorithm introduction , there were groups of students that shared code on every assignment .
Was there not enough support ?
The only time I 'd emailed the professor , he spent fifteen minutes helping me at two in the morning , far beyond what anyone would expect .
Was there too much pressure ?
The computer science requirements here meant they were taking maybe five courses per semester , which were largely just " fluff " sorts of general education requirement courses .
A lot of courses did n't even have homework , or an exam tougher than a few multiple choice questions .
Most people that showed up to class did n't do anything more than fill the chairs .
Not to seem like a pessimist , but students now are lazy , not strained .
I know so many students that will gladly beg the instructor for extensions and extra credit at any opportunity , because they spent the weekend playing Call of Duty instead of doing the homework .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And a related ramble from a current CS student's point of view... 
These students aren't cheating because of pressure, or because they don't get support.
They are cheating because they want a degree to get a job to get paid, without actually doing real work.
In my last programming class, which was a simple structure and algorithm introduction, there were groups of students that shared code on every assignment.
Was there not enough support?
The only time I'd emailed the professor, he spent fifteen minutes helping me at two in the morning, far beyond what anyone would expect.
Was there too much pressure?
The computer science requirements here meant they were taking maybe five courses per semester, which were largely just "fluff" sorts of general education requirement courses.
A lot of courses didn't even have homework, or an exam tougher than a few multiple choice questions.
Most people that showed up to class didn't do anything more than fill the chairs.
Not to seem like a pessimist, but students now are lazy, not strained.
I know so many students that will gladly beg the instructor for extensions and extra credit at any opportunity, because they spent the weekend playing Call of Duty instead of doing the homework.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112094</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112400</id>
	<title>Slippery slope</title>
	<author>toastyy</author>
	<datestamp>1265987400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>As a college student cheating in any programming class is the dumbest thing you can do. Sure you get your homework assignments in but the exams your screwed.

I knew people who near the end of the semester couldn't even create a new class in Java.

And these are the same people with Java programming on their resumes</htmltext>
<tokenext>As a college student cheating in any programming class is the dumbest thing you can do .
Sure you get your homework assignments in but the exams your screwed .
I knew people who near the end of the semester could n't even create a new class in Java .
And these are the same people with Java programming on their resumes</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a college student cheating in any programming class is the dumbest thing you can do.
Sure you get your homework assignments in but the exams your screwed.
I knew people who near the end of the semester couldn't even create a new class in Java.
And these are the same people with Java programming on their resumes</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112820</id>
	<title>Re:Cheating is laziness...</title>
	<author>xaxa</author>
	<datestamp>1265989380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Cheating is laziness by the student but also the teacher who allowed it to take place. Cheating is very easy to avoid but it does require educators to be willing to create assignments that they themselves didn't download or buy from a teaching website. The fact is that when you use the same exact assignment year after year you're going to make cheating both accessible and profitable.</p></div><p>How does that prevent copying work from other people in the same class?</p><p>I was set a few exercises where I was given a random input value (or whatever), different from the rest of the class, but that's only possible in a very small number of cases.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Cheating is laziness by the student but also the teacher who allowed it to take place .
Cheating is very easy to avoid but it does require educators to be willing to create assignments that they themselves did n't download or buy from a teaching website .
The fact is that when you use the same exact assignment year after year you 're going to make cheating both accessible and profitable.How does that prevent copying work from other people in the same class ? I was set a few exercises where I was given a random input value ( or whatever ) , different from the rest of the class , but that 's only possible in a very small number of cases .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Cheating is laziness by the student but also the teacher who allowed it to take place.
Cheating is very easy to avoid but it does require educators to be willing to create assignments that they themselves didn't download or buy from a teaching website.
The fact is that when you use the same exact assignment year after year you're going to make cheating both accessible and profitable.How does that prevent copying work from other people in the same class?I was set a few exercises where I was given a random input value (or whatever), different from the rest of the class, but that's only possible in a very small number of cases.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111934</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112000</id>
	<title>Cheaters</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265985120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How can I reach theeese keeeeeeeds???</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How can I reach theeese keeeeeeeds ? ?
?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How can I reach theeese keeeeeeeds??
?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117578</id>
	<title>Academically, professionally. . .</title>
	<author>jafac</author>
	<datestamp>1265965380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I suppose we all know the "drill" - to steal from many sources is "research".</p><p>1. I look at the assignment, I read the materials, I don't understand it.<br>2. I look at the examples - I see going from step 7 to 8, seems like magic. WTF?<br>3. I reckon I never copied from another student outright. But there are sources, anyone can use Google.<br>3a. You say you can detect cheating if the indenting is the same, variable names are the same, braces are the same?  I guess it's a good thing I'm a bit anal about my coding style. . .<br>3b. I take my source, and I kind of run it through my mental clipboard, I copy it line for line, but if anything can change, or be done "my way" - I re-write it. I indent it to MY style. I use MY bracketing style. I use MY way scheme of variable and object naming. I comment - copiously.  If I have to come back to this code in 3 months, and read it, and try to figure out what the hell I was thinking, I'll explain it to myself in detail.  I'll write a novel in comments.  Especially, if I had to do any trial-and-error to get it to work, and if I had to do anything freaky.  Sometimes, I'm hoping a better coder will come along, see what I did, and why I was confused, and then send me an email, and explain what I was doing wrong.  (never - in 15 years - has that happened).<br>3c. At the end of this process - maybe I didn't come up with the solution to the problem creatively.  But I learned how it was done, and how to do it on my own the next time.<br>4.  At the end: what I turn in, or compile - you probably can't run through any automated means of detecting plagiarism. But the algorithm is probably the same. The logic is the same. I'd bet the bytecode is probably pretty similar.</p><p>What is the purpose of the class?</p><p>To learn how to learn how to do task X.  To understand that step 7-&gt;8 "magic".</p><p>What is the purpose of the professional project?</p><p>To get task X done - while still doing due-diligence in respecting intellectual property, and perhaps, making a small-time investment on behalf of your employer, in improving your own future productivity.</p><p>If I were ever doing anything earthshatteringly innovative, (not likely) of course, I'm citing ANY significant use of someone else's code. That's how my parents raised me, that's how my ethics professor trained me, it's what my peers, my employer, and our customers expect.</p><p>But with the crappy little "ten million feet have trod before you" tasks I'm usually doing, it's just not a concern.  And if there are a hundred other script monkeys out there copying and refactoring my code the same way, I don't really give a crap.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I suppose we all know the " drill " - to steal from many sources is " research " .1 .
I look at the assignment , I read the materials , I do n't understand it.2 .
I look at the examples - I see going from step 7 to 8 , seems like magic .
WTF ? 3. I reckon I never copied from another student outright .
But there are sources , anyone can use Google.3a .
You say you can detect cheating if the indenting is the same , variable names are the same , braces are the same ?
I guess it 's a good thing I 'm a bit anal about my coding style .
. .3b .
I take my source , and I kind of run it through my mental clipboard , I copy it line for line , but if anything can change , or be done " my way " - I re-write it .
I indent it to MY style .
I use MY bracketing style .
I use MY way scheme of variable and object naming .
I comment - copiously .
If I have to come back to this code in 3 months , and read it , and try to figure out what the hell I was thinking , I 'll explain it to myself in detail .
I 'll write a novel in comments .
Especially , if I had to do any trial-and-error to get it to work , and if I had to do anything freaky .
Sometimes , I 'm hoping a better coder will come along , see what I did , and why I was confused , and then send me an email , and explain what I was doing wrong .
( never - in 15 years - has that happened ) .3c .
At the end of this process - maybe I did n't come up with the solution to the problem creatively .
But I learned how it was done , and how to do it on my own the next time.4 .
At the end : what I turn in , or compile - you probably ca n't run through any automated means of detecting plagiarism .
But the algorithm is probably the same .
The logic is the same .
I 'd bet the bytecode is probably pretty similar.What is the purpose of the class ? To learn how to learn how to do task X. To understand that step 7- &gt; 8 " magic " .What is the purpose of the professional project ? To get task X done - while still doing due-diligence in respecting intellectual property , and perhaps , making a small-time investment on behalf of your employer , in improving your own future productivity.If I were ever doing anything earthshatteringly innovative , ( not likely ) of course , I 'm citing ANY significant use of someone else 's code .
That 's how my parents raised me , that 's how my ethics professor trained me , it 's what my peers , my employer , and our customers expect.But with the crappy little " ten million feet have trod before you " tasks I 'm usually doing , it 's just not a concern .
And if there are a hundred other script monkeys out there copying and refactoring my code the same way , I do n't really give a crap .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I suppose we all know the "drill" - to steal from many sources is "research".1.
I look at the assignment, I read the materials, I don't understand it.2.
I look at the examples - I see going from step 7 to 8, seems like magic.
WTF?3. I reckon I never copied from another student outright.
But there are sources, anyone can use Google.3a.
You say you can detect cheating if the indenting is the same, variable names are the same, braces are the same?
I guess it's a good thing I'm a bit anal about my coding style.
. .3b.
I take my source, and I kind of run it through my mental clipboard, I copy it line for line, but if anything can change, or be done "my way" - I re-write it.
I indent it to MY style.
I use MY bracketing style.
I use MY way scheme of variable and object naming.
I comment - copiously.
If I have to come back to this code in 3 months, and read it, and try to figure out what the hell I was thinking, I'll explain it to myself in detail.
I'll write a novel in comments.
Especially, if I had to do any trial-and-error to get it to work, and if I had to do anything freaky.
Sometimes, I'm hoping a better coder will come along, see what I did, and why I was confused, and then send me an email, and explain what I was doing wrong.
(never - in 15 years - has that happened).3c.
At the end of this process - maybe I didn't come up with the solution to the problem creatively.
But I learned how it was done, and how to do it on my own the next time.4.
At the end: what I turn in, or compile - you probably can't run through any automated means of detecting plagiarism.
But the algorithm is probably the same.
The logic is the same.
I'd bet the bytecode is probably pretty similar.What is the purpose of the class?To learn how to learn how to do task X.  To understand that step 7-&gt;8 "magic".What is the purpose of the professional project?To get task X done - while still doing due-diligence in respecting intellectual property, and perhaps, making a small-time investment on behalf of your employer, in improving your own future productivity.If I were ever doing anything earthshatteringly innovative, (not likely) of course, I'm citing ANY significant use of someone else's code.
That's how my parents raised me, that's how my ethics professor trained me, it's what my peers, my employer, and our customers expect.But with the crappy little "ten million feet have trod before you" tasks I'm usually doing, it's just not a concern.
And if there are a hundred other script monkeys out there copying and refactoring my code the same way, I don't really give a crap.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31118250</id>
	<title>Don't do it.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265967240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've only cheated twice in my life. Both were accidental viewing of the answer. The second time, I intentionally didn't answer the question, so as to get no credit for the cheat. Cheating hurts the person cheating, and indirectly hurts everyone else. A number on a piece of paper is not worth hurting people.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've only cheated twice in my life .
Both were accidental viewing of the answer .
The second time , I intentionally did n't answer the question , so as to get no credit for the cheat .
Cheating hurts the person cheating , and indirectly hurts everyone else .
A number on a piece of paper is not worth hurting people .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've only cheated twice in my life.
Both were accidental viewing of the answer.
The second time, I intentionally didn't answer the question, so as to get no credit for the cheat.
Cheating hurts the person cheating, and indirectly hurts everyone else.
A number on a piece of paper is not worth hurting people.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112516</id>
	<title>anonymous</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265988120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And what's CS is?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And what 's CS is ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And what's CS is?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112884</id>
	<title>Re:No outside help ?</title>
	<author>sorak</author>
	<datestamp>1265989620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I am wondering what exactly they are calling cheating here, since the code says they "will not plagiarize, copy work or get outside help."</p><p>Plagiarize and copy are obvious, but I never heard of asking for help on homework being cheating. How else does one learn ?<br>If you didn't get the concept in class, you are out of luck, that's it ?</p><p>I was in an Engineering program (Stevens Institute in Hoboken), and I would venture that at least half of homework was done in study groups, sometimes just to bounce idea off each other, sometimes as a collaborative group effort. This was part of the learning process.</p></div><p>I would draw the line (if making an objective policy) at written code above a certain length. You can discuss algorithms, or even give an example of how a certain function might work. And, if discussing database code, you would need to cover several lines of code to show the student how to establish a connection, run a query, and close that connection.</p><p>You may also want to have a rule against code that is custom tailored for the specific application. For example, I would consider it cheating if someone else wrote a SQL query, that did not have to be modified to be used in the current assignment.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I am wondering what exactly they are calling cheating here , since the code says they " will not plagiarize , copy work or get outside help .
" Plagiarize and copy are obvious , but I never heard of asking for help on homework being cheating .
How else does one learn ? If you did n't get the concept in class , you are out of luck , that 's it ? I was in an Engineering program ( Stevens Institute in Hoboken ) , and I would venture that at least half of homework was done in study groups , sometimes just to bounce idea off each other , sometimes as a collaborative group effort .
This was part of the learning process.I would draw the line ( if making an objective policy ) at written code above a certain length .
You can discuss algorithms , or even give an example of how a certain function might work .
And , if discussing database code , you would need to cover several lines of code to show the student how to establish a connection , run a query , and close that connection.You may also want to have a rule against code that is custom tailored for the specific application .
For example , I would consider it cheating if someone else wrote a SQL query , that did not have to be modified to be used in the current assignment .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am wondering what exactly they are calling cheating here, since the code says they "will not plagiarize, copy work or get outside help.
"Plagiarize and copy are obvious, but I never heard of asking for help on homework being cheating.
How else does one learn ?If you didn't get the concept in class, you are out of luck, that's it ?I was in an Engineering program (Stevens Institute in Hoboken), and I would venture that at least half of homework was done in study groups, sometimes just to bounce idea off each other, sometimes as a collaborative group effort.
This was part of the learning process.I would draw the line (if making an objective policy) at written code above a certain length.
You can discuss algorithms, or even give an example of how a certain function might work.
And, if discussing database code, you would need to cover several lines of code to show the student how to establish a connection, run a query, and close that connection.You may also want to have a rule against code that is custom tailored for the specific application.
For example, I would consider it cheating if someone else wrote a SQL query, that did not have to be modified to be used in the current assignment.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111988</id>
	<title>Why cheat at all?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265985060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It isn't as if Computer Science is extremely challenging.</p><p>Buckle down and study.  Sheesh.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is n't as if Computer Science is extremely challenging.Buckle down and study .
Sheesh .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It isn't as if Computer Science is extremely challenging.Buckle down and study.
Sheesh.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113928</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>melted keyboard</author>
	<datestamp>1265994180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Just to give some perspective on a harsh university response to cheating, the policy at my alma mater was as follows:<br>
First offense in your academic career: -100\% on the assignment you cheated on.  (e.g. if an assignment was worth 5\% of your final grade, in addition to not getting that 5\%, you would lose an additional 5\% making the maximum grade possible in that course a 90\%).<br>
Second offense in your academic career: expulsion.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Just to give some perspective on a harsh university response to cheating , the policy at my alma mater was as follows : First offense in your academic career : -100 \ % on the assignment you cheated on .
( e.g. if an assignment was worth 5 \ % of your final grade , in addition to not getting that 5 \ % , you would lose an additional 5 \ % making the maximum grade possible in that course a 90 \ % ) .
Second offense in your academic career : expulsion .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just to give some perspective on a harsh university response to cheating, the policy at my alma mater was as follows:
First offense in your academic career: -100\% on the assignment you cheated on.
(e.g. if an assignment was worth 5\% of your final grade, in addition to not getting that 5\%, you would lose an additional 5\% making the maximum grade possible in that course a 90\%).
Second offense in your academic career: expulsion.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112868</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31118192</id>
	<title>Re:Very easy, and very easy to get caught</title>
	<author>SheeEttin</author>
	<datestamp>1265967120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>sometimes it's the same structure with different comments, suggesting they just sat side by side and wrote the lab together.</p></div></blockquote><p>
I've always been confused as to why this is considered cheating. If you and another student cooperate to attack a problem together, why is that a bad thing? You both (supposedly) learn whatever was being taught... It's not plagiarism, either.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>sometimes it 's the same structure with different comments , suggesting they just sat side by side and wrote the lab together .
I 've always been confused as to why this is considered cheating .
If you and another student cooperate to attack a problem together , why is that a bad thing ?
You both ( supposedly ) learn whatever was being taught... It 's not plagiarism , either .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>sometimes it's the same structure with different comments, suggesting they just sat side by side and wrote the lab together.
I've always been confused as to why this is considered cheating.
If you and another student cooperate to attack a problem together, why is that a bad thing?
You both (supposedly) learn whatever was being taught... It's not plagiarism, either.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112868</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>Kizeh</author>
	<datestamp>1265989560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Besides, how many ways can you write a QuickSort?</p></div><p>When I was grading programming homework a decade or two ago (theoretical physics, oddly enough) it was obvious when people shared their code. The use of spaces, indentation, variable names, curly braces etc. really made each assignment unique, and the people who resorted in copying someone's code almost never bothered to make any changes at all. My solution was to give the first assignment turned in whatever grade it deserved, and each subsequent copy a 0, and that seemed to make short work of the practice. At my current university the response would be significantly harsher.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Besides , how many ways can you write a QuickSort ? When I was grading programming homework a decade or two ago ( theoretical physics , oddly enough ) it was obvious when people shared their code .
The use of spaces , indentation , variable names , curly braces etc .
really made each assignment unique , and the people who resorted in copying someone 's code almost never bothered to make any changes at all .
My solution was to give the first assignment turned in whatever grade it deserved , and each subsequent copy a 0 , and that seemed to make short work of the practice .
At my current university the response would be significantly harsher .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Besides, how many ways can you write a QuickSort?When I was grading programming homework a decade or two ago (theoretical physics, oddly enough) it was obvious when people shared their code.
The use of spaces, indentation, variable names, curly braces etc.
really made each assignment unique, and the people who resorted in copying someone's code almost never bothered to make any changes at all.
My solution was to give the first assignment turned in whatever grade it deserved, and each subsequent copy a 0, and that seemed to make short work of the practice.
At my current university the response would be significantly harsher.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115050</id>
	<title>Re:CS doesn't require cheating</title>
	<author>Bemopolis</author>
	<datestamp>1265998140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Not everyone who takes a CS class is a CS major.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Not everyone who takes a CS class is a CS major .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Not everyone who takes a CS class is a CS major.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112156</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111928</id>
	<title>Half of the story.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265984700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>It's much easier for people to cheat in group projects than on any particular assignment. Nearing the end of my undergrad I specifically choose courses that didn't involve group projects because I got tired of doing other people's work (while they went to class).</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's much easier for people to cheat in group projects than on any particular assignment .
Nearing the end of my undergrad I specifically choose courses that did n't involve group projects because I got tired of doing other people 's work ( while they went to class ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's much easier for people to cheat in group projects than on any particular assignment.
Nearing the end of my undergrad I specifically choose courses that didn't involve group projects because I got tired of doing other people's work (while they went to class).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111960</id>
	<title>anti-cheat</title>
	<author>nnxion</author>
	<datestamp>1265984940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Well the professor used Valve anti-cheat and temp-banned him.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</htmltext>
<tokenext>Well the professor used Valve anti-cheat and temp-banned him .
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well the professor used Valve anti-cheat and temp-banned him.
:)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111878</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112904</id>
	<title>Re:Cheating is laziness...</title>
	<author>ThrowAwaySociety</author>
	<datestamp>1265989800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I would also like to add, that cheating is far worse in the US since the teachers grade the students instead of third party independent testing organisations who are contracted to create unique material for each test.</p></div><p>Umm, citation needed?</p><p>Are you accusing the teachers of helping the students to cheat? If so, outside tests don't help. Thanks to the All Children Kept Behind act, every public school has been using third-party independent testing. Since the teachers and districts are evaluated based on their students' performance, the teachers and administrators themselves have been caught helping students cheat (either by giving away answers during tests, or by editing students' responses before submitting them.)</p><p>Or perhaps you're suggesting that somehow tests produced by teachers are easier to cheat on, because the teachers ask the same questions on every exam. Well, only lazy (or stupid) teachers do that; a good teacher will subtly vary the questions each time a test is given; a teacher can do this as effectively (and often moreso) than a huge testing organization.  And a good teacher will be familiar enough with his or her students to know when a low performer starts scoring well.</p><p>In short, lazy, badly motivated, and dumb teachers promote cheating. Adding bureaucracy won't help.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I would also like to add , that cheating is far worse in the US since the teachers grade the students instead of third party independent testing organisations who are contracted to create unique material for each test.Umm , citation needed ? Are you accusing the teachers of helping the students to cheat ?
If so , outside tests do n't help .
Thanks to the All Children Kept Behind act , every public school has been using third-party independent testing .
Since the teachers and districts are evaluated based on their students ' performance , the teachers and administrators themselves have been caught helping students cheat ( either by giving away answers during tests , or by editing students ' responses before submitting them .
) Or perhaps you 're suggesting that somehow tests produced by teachers are easier to cheat on , because the teachers ask the same questions on every exam .
Well , only lazy ( or stupid ) teachers do that ; a good teacher will subtly vary the questions each time a test is given ; a teacher can do this as effectively ( and often moreso ) than a huge testing organization .
And a good teacher will be familiar enough with his or her students to know when a low performer starts scoring well.In short , lazy , badly motivated , and dumb teachers promote cheating .
Adding bureaucracy wo n't help .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would also like to add, that cheating is far worse in the US since the teachers grade the students instead of third party independent testing organisations who are contracted to create unique material for each test.Umm, citation needed?Are you accusing the teachers of helping the students to cheat?
If so, outside tests don't help.
Thanks to the All Children Kept Behind act, every public school has been using third-party independent testing.
Since the teachers and districts are evaluated based on their students' performance, the teachers and administrators themselves have been caught helping students cheat (either by giving away answers during tests, or by editing students' responses before submitting them.
)Or perhaps you're suggesting that somehow tests produced by teachers are easier to cheat on, because the teachers ask the same questions on every exam.
Well, only lazy (or stupid) teachers do that; a good teacher will subtly vary the questions each time a test is given; a teacher can do this as effectively (and often moreso) than a huge testing organization.
And a good teacher will be familiar enough with his or her students to know when a low performer starts scoring well.In short, lazy, badly motivated, and dumb teachers promote cheating.
Adding bureaucracy won't help.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111934</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113062</id>
	<title>I never worried much about it</title>
	<author>bfwebster</author>
	<datestamp>1265990580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's been nearly 25 years since I taught CS (BYU, 1985-87), and I taught <a href="http://www.cra.org/wp/wp-content/HERvReality.jpg" title="cra.org">at the peak of CS enrollment</a> [cra.org], so I had large (200+ students) "Intro to Programming" courses; also, these same classes counted as general education. I'm sure a lot of 'sharing' went on as far as the programming assignments went, but I was never concerned, because (a) that's true in real-life programming as well, and (b) it wasn't going to help them (and actually hurt them) when it came to tests. As a side note, enrollment demand was so high at that time that if you wanted to be a CS major, you had to complete this class, apply to the CS department, and <i>be accepted</i> as a CS major. Ah, those were the days.</p><p>The other classes I taught (assembly language, data structures, computer and society) were for CS majors only. The first two required programming, and again I wasn't concerned due to the same programming vs. test performance check. I also wasn't concerned because I knew (from personal experience) how tough the upper-division classes were (compiler design, OS implementation, comparative languages, not to mention the lower-division 'algorithms' class taught using Knuth's "Art of Computer Programming: Fundamental Algorithms"), and I knew that if someone cheated their way through the earlier classes, they would crash and burn eventually.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>..bruce..</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's been nearly 25 years since I taught CS ( BYU , 1985-87 ) , and I taught at the peak of CS enrollment [ cra.org ] , so I had large ( 200 + students ) " Intro to Programming " courses ; also , these same classes counted as general education .
I 'm sure a lot of 'sharing ' went on as far as the programming assignments went , but I was never concerned , because ( a ) that 's true in real-life programming as well , and ( b ) it was n't going to help them ( and actually hurt them ) when it came to tests .
As a side note , enrollment demand was so high at that time that if you wanted to be a CS major , you had to complete this class , apply to the CS department , and be accepted as a CS major .
Ah , those were the days.The other classes I taught ( assembly language , data structures , computer and society ) were for CS majors only .
The first two required programming , and again I was n't concerned due to the same programming vs. test performance check .
I also was n't concerned because I knew ( from personal experience ) how tough the upper-division classes were ( compiler design , OS implementation , comparative languages , not to mention the lower-division 'algorithms ' class taught using Knuth 's " Art of Computer Programming : Fundamental Algorithms " ) , and I knew that if someone cheated their way through the earlier classes , they would crash and burn eventually .
..bruce. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's been nearly 25 years since I taught CS (BYU, 1985-87), and I taught at the peak of CS enrollment [cra.org], so I had large (200+ students) "Intro to Programming" courses; also, these same classes counted as general education.
I'm sure a lot of 'sharing' went on as far as the programming assignments went, but I was never concerned, because (a) that's true in real-life programming as well, and (b) it wasn't going to help them (and actually hurt them) when it came to tests.
As a side note, enrollment demand was so high at that time that if you wanted to be a CS major, you had to complete this class, apply to the CS department, and be accepted as a CS major.
Ah, those were the days.The other classes I taught (assembly language, data structures, computer and society) were for CS majors only.
The first two required programming, and again I wasn't concerned due to the same programming vs. test performance check.
I also wasn't concerned because I knew (from personal experience) how tough the upper-division classes were (compiler design, OS implementation, comparative languages, not to mention the lower-division 'algorithms' class taught using Knuth's "Art of Computer Programming: Fundamental Algorithms"), and I knew that if someone cheated their way through the earlier classes, they would crash and burn eventually.
..bruce..</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115770</id>
	<title>Drown them all</title>
	<author>BlortHorc</author>
	<datestamp>1266001080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Seriously, the time wasted interviewing these know nothings pretending to know something costs the industry, let alone when some dumb fucking boss actually believes their credentials and gives them "work experience".</p><p>If you cannot pass the bullshit tests at Uni, I guarantee you the world will rip you several new ones you will need to explain if you blag your way into a job.</p><p>Do us all a favour, go get a job in sales, at least then no one will complain when we beat you up and flush your head down the toilet. Oh, no one told you the dumb guys are the dorks in the real world? Consider a job in door to door. That way you'll rarely meet us.</p><p>&gt;:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Seriously , the time wasted interviewing these know nothings pretending to know something costs the industry , let alone when some dumb fucking boss actually believes their credentials and gives them " work experience " .If you can not pass the bullshit tests at Uni , I guarantee you the world will rip you several new ones you will need to explain if you blag your way into a job.Do us all a favour , go get a job in sales , at least then no one will complain when we beat you up and flush your head down the toilet .
Oh , no one told you the dumb guys are the dorks in the real world ?
Consider a job in door to door .
That way you 'll rarely meet us. &gt; : )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seriously, the time wasted interviewing these know nothings pretending to know something costs the industry, let alone when some dumb fucking boss actually believes their credentials and gives them "work experience".If you cannot pass the bullshit tests at Uni, I guarantee you the world will rip you several new ones you will need to explain if you blag your way into a job.Do us all a favour, go get a job in sales, at least then no one will complain when we beat you up and flush your head down the toilet.
Oh, no one told you the dumb guys are the dorks in the real world?
Consider a job in door to door.
That way you'll rarely meet us.&gt;:)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114450</id>
	<title>Re:No outside help ?</title>
	<author>getSalled</author>
	<datestamp>1265996100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Kudos to you.  You also have the benefit of learning your students' tendencies in code.  I failed an assignment with a note from the professor that basically said "what the hell?"  It was my first thought as well but for another reason -- it wasn't my code.  I went to retrieve my original from my network account and my profile had been erased.  If I remember correctly, the prof gave me full credit for the assignment largely because I had talked to him about how I had found another algorithm online (implemented it myself) that was 20\% more efficient but was not valid for the assignment (it wasn't A*).  I have no idea if someone else actually stole it and turned it in (or if it was some fluke with the server) but I imagine he would've failed the student that turned in the other solution...</htmltext>
<tokenext>Kudos to you .
You also have the benefit of learning your students ' tendencies in code .
I failed an assignment with a note from the professor that basically said " what the hell ?
" It was my first thought as well but for another reason -- it was n't my code .
I went to retrieve my original from my network account and my profile had been erased .
If I remember correctly , the prof gave me full credit for the assignment largely because I had talked to him about how I had found another algorithm online ( implemented it myself ) that was 20 \ % more efficient but was not valid for the assignment ( it was n't A * ) .
I have no idea if someone else actually stole it and turned it in ( or if it was some fluke with the server ) but I imagine he would 've failed the student that turned in the other solution.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Kudos to you.
You also have the benefit of learning your students' tendencies in code.
I failed an assignment with a note from the professor that basically said "what the hell?
"  It was my first thought as well but for another reason -- it wasn't my code.
I went to retrieve my original from my network account and my profile had been erased.
If I remember correctly, the prof gave me full credit for the assignment largely because I had talked to him about how I had found another algorithm online (implemented it myself) that was 20\% more efficient but was not valid for the assignment (it wasn't A*).
I have no idea if someone else actually stole it and turned it in (or if it was some fluke with the server) but I imagine he would've failed the student that turned in the other solution...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112826</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117870</id>
	<title>Re:No outside help ?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265966280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As a graduate of the Computer Science program at Stanford and a TA for the class the article was about, we had a pretty straightforward definition of what counted as "too much help": if you are discussing the problem in sufficient detail that what the person tells you translates into specific lines of code, that's not allowed.  Discussion of general strategies for solving problems is encouraged, but each person should be able to translate that general strategy into a specific implementation on their own.  For the introductory courses there is also a computer lab staffed 40-50 hours a week by TAs (generally from about 6-midnight, so not a lot of overlap with classes), so there really isn't an excuse for having your roommate tell you what to write, lots of help is available.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As a graduate of the Computer Science program at Stanford and a TA for the class the article was about , we had a pretty straightforward definition of what counted as " too much help " : if you are discussing the problem in sufficient detail that what the person tells you translates into specific lines of code , that 's not allowed .
Discussion of general strategies for solving problems is encouraged , but each person should be able to translate that general strategy into a specific implementation on their own .
For the introductory courses there is also a computer lab staffed 40-50 hours a week by TAs ( generally from about 6-midnight , so not a lot of overlap with classes ) , so there really is n't an excuse for having your roommate tell you what to write , lots of help is available .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a graduate of the Computer Science program at Stanford and a TA for the class the article was about, we had a pretty straightforward definition of what counted as "too much help": if you are discussing the problem in sufficient detail that what the person tells you translates into specific lines of code, that's not allowed.
Discussion of general strategies for solving problems is encouraged, but each person should be able to translate that general strategy into a specific implementation on their own.
For the introductory courses there is also a computer lab staffed 40-50 hours a week by TAs (generally from about 6-midnight, so not a lot of overlap with classes), so there really isn't an excuse for having your roommate tell you what to write, lots of help is available.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112362</id>
	<title>Re:Cheating is laziness...</title>
	<author>Xest</author>
	<datestamp>1265987220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I do have to wonder if cheating even really matters.</p><p>People will cheat for a number of reasons including those you mention, but also perhaps because they find the assessment entirely unfitting to their way of thinking. for exams for example, tThe fact is, exams just aren't representative of real life and I've met many people who can excel outside exam conditions, but struggle with exams, even though the low grade from the exam has no relevance to their ability to perform in the real world. The other side of that of course is that there are also a lot of people out there who excel at exams, but truly suck at using that knowledge dynamically, in the real world.</p><p>But even if people don't cheat for this reason, and cheat because they find the course boring, or because they are interested in it but really can't do it I still have to wonder whether there is any actual harm.</p><p>Look at the effects, of each scenario:</p><p>Scenario 1: Person cheats because they struggle with exams, despite being good at the subject in a real world situation. No real harm is done, beause they'll still do a good job, and cheating really just gave them a grade that is perhaps more representative of their ability.</p><p>Scenario 2: Person cheats because they picked the wrong course and would rather have done something else, but need the points anyway. Does it really matter? Chances are if they didn't like the topic they wont be making use of the elements of the course in the real world anyway, and so even if they cheated to get a good grade, they're not going to end up in a real world situation where they're unable to perform.</p><p>Scenario 3: The person who cheats because they enjoy the topic but still struggle with it is going to have one of two outcomes, the first is that they continue to work at the subject until they are good at it precisely because they do enjoy it, the second and most harmful of all is that they remain incompetent and do use their cheated grade to get a job in the subject, obviously this is bad for the employer, but I would argue only in the short term- making use of the subject will either make them better over time, or their employer will begin to realise they suck and get rid of them anyway.</p><p>I'd argue the real problem is that despite the fact we know that people learn in different ways, despite the fact we know some people that are crap at recalling facts, but awesome at putting them to use if we have them in a reference, and contrary to that, have people who are awesome at remembering facts, but hopeless at applying them, or the much rarer case of people being good at both, we still use an assessment system that we've used for hundreds of years and which doesn't take any of this into account. That's before you factor in other complications that are important to a person's ability to do a job- some people might write good code, but can't for the life of them architect it, some are great at talking to people and getting user feedback, but hopeless at implementing and so on, none of which assessment really measures.</p><p>So effectively, whilst we have a fundamental flaw in how we rate people to begin with, it's hard to worry that there are people who don't adhere to the rules of said system.</p><p>I'd argue if we sort out the assessment system in general, cheating will be irrelevant anyway. I don't know what the solution is, and suspect whatever it is it'll require more effort from lecturers, but perhaps one option would be to have students both make a FOSS contribution, and peer review other contributions, and then have the lecturer or whoever evaluate the contribution and the review. Just throwing that out there though, I'm sure there are flaws in the plan but either way, it can't really be any worse than the current mainstream system which is both horribly outdated and fundamentally broken.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do have to wonder if cheating even really matters.People will cheat for a number of reasons including those you mention , but also perhaps because they find the assessment entirely unfitting to their way of thinking .
for exams for example , tThe fact is , exams just are n't representative of real life and I 've met many people who can excel outside exam conditions , but struggle with exams , even though the low grade from the exam has no relevance to their ability to perform in the real world .
The other side of that of course is that there are also a lot of people out there who excel at exams , but truly suck at using that knowledge dynamically , in the real world.But even if people do n't cheat for this reason , and cheat because they find the course boring , or because they are interested in it but really ca n't do it I still have to wonder whether there is any actual harm.Look at the effects , of each scenario : Scenario 1 : Person cheats because they struggle with exams , despite being good at the subject in a real world situation .
No real harm is done , beause they 'll still do a good job , and cheating really just gave them a grade that is perhaps more representative of their ability.Scenario 2 : Person cheats because they picked the wrong course and would rather have done something else , but need the points anyway .
Does it really matter ?
Chances are if they did n't like the topic they wont be making use of the elements of the course in the real world anyway , and so even if they cheated to get a good grade , they 're not going to end up in a real world situation where they 're unable to perform.Scenario 3 : The person who cheats because they enjoy the topic but still struggle with it is going to have one of two outcomes , the first is that they continue to work at the subject until they are good at it precisely because they do enjoy it , the second and most harmful of all is that they remain incompetent and do use their cheated grade to get a job in the subject , obviously this is bad for the employer , but I would argue only in the short term- making use of the subject will either make them better over time , or their employer will begin to realise they suck and get rid of them anyway.I 'd argue the real problem is that despite the fact we know that people learn in different ways , despite the fact we know some people that are crap at recalling facts , but awesome at putting them to use if we have them in a reference , and contrary to that , have people who are awesome at remembering facts , but hopeless at applying them , or the much rarer case of people being good at both , we still use an assessment system that we 've used for hundreds of years and which does n't take any of this into account .
That 's before you factor in other complications that are important to a person 's ability to do a job- some people might write good code , but ca n't for the life of them architect it , some are great at talking to people and getting user feedback , but hopeless at implementing and so on , none of which assessment really measures.So effectively , whilst we have a fundamental flaw in how we rate people to begin with , it 's hard to worry that there are people who do n't adhere to the rules of said system.I 'd argue if we sort out the assessment system in general , cheating will be irrelevant anyway .
I do n't know what the solution is , and suspect whatever it is it 'll require more effort from lecturers , but perhaps one option would be to have students both make a FOSS contribution , and peer review other contributions , and then have the lecturer or whoever evaluate the contribution and the review .
Just throwing that out there though , I 'm sure there are flaws in the plan but either way , it ca n't really be any worse than the current mainstream system which is both horribly outdated and fundamentally broken .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I do have to wonder if cheating even really matters.People will cheat for a number of reasons including those you mention, but also perhaps because they find the assessment entirely unfitting to their way of thinking.
for exams for example, tThe fact is, exams just aren't representative of real life and I've met many people who can excel outside exam conditions, but struggle with exams, even though the low grade from the exam has no relevance to their ability to perform in the real world.
The other side of that of course is that there are also a lot of people out there who excel at exams, but truly suck at using that knowledge dynamically, in the real world.But even if people don't cheat for this reason, and cheat because they find the course boring, or because they are interested in it but really can't do it I still have to wonder whether there is any actual harm.Look at the effects, of each scenario:Scenario 1: Person cheats because they struggle with exams, despite being good at the subject in a real world situation.
No real harm is done, beause they'll still do a good job, and cheating really just gave them a grade that is perhaps more representative of their ability.Scenario 2: Person cheats because they picked the wrong course and would rather have done something else, but need the points anyway.
Does it really matter?
Chances are if they didn't like the topic they wont be making use of the elements of the course in the real world anyway, and so even if they cheated to get a good grade, they're not going to end up in a real world situation where they're unable to perform.Scenario 3: The person who cheats because they enjoy the topic but still struggle with it is going to have one of two outcomes, the first is that they continue to work at the subject until they are good at it precisely because they do enjoy it, the second and most harmful of all is that they remain incompetent and do use their cheated grade to get a job in the subject, obviously this is bad for the employer, but I would argue only in the short term- making use of the subject will either make them better over time, or their employer will begin to realise they suck and get rid of them anyway.I'd argue the real problem is that despite the fact we know that people learn in different ways, despite the fact we know some people that are crap at recalling facts, but awesome at putting them to use if we have them in a reference, and contrary to that, have people who are awesome at remembering facts, but hopeless at applying them, or the much rarer case of people being good at both, we still use an assessment system that we've used for hundreds of years and which doesn't take any of this into account.
That's before you factor in other complications that are important to a person's ability to do a job- some people might write good code, but can't for the life of them architect it, some are great at talking to people and getting user feedback, but hopeless at implementing and so on, none of which assessment really measures.So effectively, whilst we have a fundamental flaw in how we rate people to begin with, it's hard to worry that there are people who don't adhere to the rules of said system.I'd argue if we sort out the assessment system in general, cheating will be irrelevant anyway.
I don't know what the solution is, and suspect whatever it is it'll require more effort from lecturers, but perhaps one option would be to have students both make a FOSS contribution, and peer review other contributions, and then have the lecturer or whoever evaluate the contribution and the review.
Just throwing that out there though, I'm sure there are flaws in the plan but either way, it can't really be any worse than the current mainstream system which is both horribly outdated and fundamentally broken.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111934</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112308</id>
	<title>Slap on the wrist?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265986860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>One interesting strategy discussed is for the professor to make the final count for more of the final grade each time cheating is discovered.</i> <br> <br>

Another interesting strategy is to fail them out of the class. There's no excuse for cheating. The punishment should be severe. Especially if it's something obvious. For example, when I was in school, some moron managed to get a copy of my code for an assignment (possibly a copy I left on the hard drive). They were so stupid, they didn't even remove the comments from my code, including the ones with my name. Given that I was getting an A in the class and the other person was doing pretty poorly, the professor had no question about who wrote the code. His only question was, how was I connected with the person. I was like, "Who are they?" I didn't even know the person and fortunately the professor believed me.<br> <br>

But the point is, they could have hurt me by their cheating. If the professor thought we were in cahoots, I could have been punished for merely being thoughtless and leaving a copy of my code on the hard drive. The cheater should have been failed out of the class, as far as I'm concerned, if not suspended or expelled. I busted my butt in college and never cheated and I observed a great deal of cheating. It's completely unfair to the rest and I have no tolerance for it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>One interesting strategy discussed is for the professor to make the final count for more of the final grade each time cheating is discovered .
Another interesting strategy is to fail them out of the class .
There 's no excuse for cheating .
The punishment should be severe .
Especially if it 's something obvious .
For example , when I was in school , some moron managed to get a copy of my code for an assignment ( possibly a copy I left on the hard drive ) .
They were so stupid , they did n't even remove the comments from my code , including the ones with my name .
Given that I was getting an A in the class and the other person was doing pretty poorly , the professor had no question about who wrote the code .
His only question was , how was I connected with the person .
I was like , " Who are they ?
" I did n't even know the person and fortunately the professor believed me .
But the point is , they could have hurt me by their cheating .
If the professor thought we were in cahoots , I could have been punished for merely being thoughtless and leaving a copy of my code on the hard drive .
The cheater should have been failed out of the class , as far as I 'm concerned , if not suspended or expelled .
I busted my butt in college and never cheated and I observed a great deal of cheating .
It 's completely unfair to the rest and I have no tolerance for it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One interesting strategy discussed is for the professor to make the final count for more of the final grade each time cheating is discovered.
Another interesting strategy is to fail them out of the class.
There's no excuse for cheating.
The punishment should be severe.
Especially if it's something obvious.
For example, when I was in school, some moron managed to get a copy of my code for an assignment (possibly a copy I left on the hard drive).
They were so stupid, they didn't even remove the comments from my code, including the ones with my name.
Given that I was getting an A in the class and the other person was doing pretty poorly, the professor had no question about who wrote the code.
His only question was, how was I connected with the person.
I was like, "Who are they?
" I didn't even know the person and fortunately the professor believed me.
But the point is, they could have hurt me by their cheating.
If the professor thought we were in cahoots, I could have been punished for merely being thoughtless and leaving a copy of my code on the hard drive.
The cheater should have been failed out of the class, as far as I'm concerned, if not suspended or expelled.
I busted my butt in college and never cheated and I observed a great deal of cheating.
It's completely unfair to the rest and I have no tolerance for it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112272</id>
	<title>Cheating - remove the incentive to cheat instead</title>
	<author>janoc</author>
	<datestamp>1265986680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I have taught several introductory CS courses and to be honest, I was not interested in playing policeman and checking whether students are cheating or not. Instead, I have established a two tier system:

- For homeworks that had to be turned in, these were corrected by the students themselves. I did some spot checks to warn those who were cheating and to ensure that the corrections are up to par, but didn't really put much effort into chasing cheaters. The homeworks were primarily a feedback for the students and an opportunity to learn. However, to give them an incentive to actually do them, they could pass the exam orally in advance instead of a practical programming exam if they had 80\% of homeworks right. That was strong motivation for many of them, because they perceived the oral exam as easier (even though in reality they had to do much more work over the semester for it).

Now, the purpose of the oral examination was simple - to establish whether the homeworks were actually done by that student or not. In my experience, if someone was cheating, he didn't have a clue whatsoever what the code he has handed in does. At best, he could memorize some superficial stuff and do some hand-waving over it. One or two targeted questions over the details of the assignment has always uncovered this. No need for any computerized code comparison tool (which would be always gamed) or tiresome reviews of the homeworks.

- For the regular exam which was always written, practical programming assignment on a computer in the lab (CS exam on paper?? WTF?), I have allowed the students to bring their own code snippets (e.g. from homeworks), use their books, even internet. This essentially makes all what would usually be considered cheating allowed, lessening the burden on me - I did not have to spy on them whether or not they are cheating.

My reasoning was that the students should demonstrate practical knowledge how to solve problems, not whether or not they have memorized stuff (which is what the exam would be about if the books were forbidden). Now, of course, if the student didn't learn anything, the books will not help - they would spend most of their time searching for information and run out of time.

One disadvantage of this approach is obvious - it puts a bigger onus on the examiner to prepare meaningful exams. Assignments like "Implement quicksort" are useless, because the students can find them ready made online or in the book. On the other hand, I do not think it makes much sense to examine whether or not a person can implement quicksort - it is not a real-world problem. Better give them an assignment where the quicksort needs to be used - the clueless one will not find it online so he cannot readily cheat and the smarter one will see the similarity and solve the assignment without problem.

To conclude, I do not believe in the various software to catch cheaters. Especially not in CS - the students are very smart and will be always able to game it. If the teacher is doing their job, this is not needed.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have taught several introductory CS courses and to be honest , I was not interested in playing policeman and checking whether students are cheating or not .
Instead , I have established a two tier system : - For homeworks that had to be turned in , these were corrected by the students themselves .
I did some spot checks to warn those who were cheating and to ensure that the corrections are up to par , but did n't really put much effort into chasing cheaters .
The homeworks were primarily a feedback for the students and an opportunity to learn .
However , to give them an incentive to actually do them , they could pass the exam orally in advance instead of a practical programming exam if they had 80 \ % of homeworks right .
That was strong motivation for many of them , because they perceived the oral exam as easier ( even though in reality they had to do much more work over the semester for it ) .
Now , the purpose of the oral examination was simple - to establish whether the homeworks were actually done by that student or not .
In my experience , if someone was cheating , he did n't have a clue whatsoever what the code he has handed in does .
At best , he could memorize some superficial stuff and do some hand-waving over it .
One or two targeted questions over the details of the assignment has always uncovered this .
No need for any computerized code comparison tool ( which would be always gamed ) or tiresome reviews of the homeworks .
- For the regular exam which was always written , practical programming assignment on a computer in the lab ( CS exam on paper ? ?
WTF ? ) , I have allowed the students to bring their own code snippets ( e.g .
from homeworks ) , use their books , even internet .
This essentially makes all what would usually be considered cheating allowed , lessening the burden on me - I did not have to spy on them whether or not they are cheating .
My reasoning was that the students should demonstrate practical knowledge how to solve problems , not whether or not they have memorized stuff ( which is what the exam would be about if the books were forbidden ) .
Now , of course , if the student did n't learn anything , the books will not help - they would spend most of their time searching for information and run out of time .
One disadvantage of this approach is obvious - it puts a bigger onus on the examiner to prepare meaningful exams .
Assignments like " Implement quicksort " are useless , because the students can find them ready made online or in the book .
On the other hand , I do not think it makes much sense to examine whether or not a person can implement quicksort - it is not a real-world problem .
Better give them an assignment where the quicksort needs to be used - the clueless one will not find it online so he can not readily cheat and the smarter one will see the similarity and solve the assignment without problem .
To conclude , I do not believe in the various software to catch cheaters .
Especially not in CS - the students are very smart and will be always able to game it .
If the teacher is doing their job , this is not needed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have taught several introductory CS courses and to be honest, I was not interested in playing policeman and checking whether students are cheating or not.
Instead, I have established a two tier system:

- For homeworks that had to be turned in, these were corrected by the students themselves.
I did some spot checks to warn those who were cheating and to ensure that the corrections are up to par, but didn't really put much effort into chasing cheaters.
The homeworks were primarily a feedback for the students and an opportunity to learn.
However, to give them an incentive to actually do them, they could pass the exam orally in advance instead of a practical programming exam if they had 80\% of homeworks right.
That was strong motivation for many of them, because they perceived the oral exam as easier (even though in reality they had to do much more work over the semester for it).
Now, the purpose of the oral examination was simple - to establish whether the homeworks were actually done by that student or not.
In my experience, if someone was cheating, he didn't have a clue whatsoever what the code he has handed in does.
At best, he could memorize some superficial stuff and do some hand-waving over it.
One or two targeted questions over the details of the assignment has always uncovered this.
No need for any computerized code comparison tool (which would be always gamed) or tiresome reviews of the homeworks.
- For the regular exam which was always written, practical programming assignment on a computer in the lab (CS exam on paper??
WTF?), I have allowed the students to bring their own code snippets (e.g.
from homeworks), use their books, even internet.
This essentially makes all what would usually be considered cheating allowed, lessening the burden on me - I did not have to spy on them whether or not they are cheating.
My reasoning was that the students should demonstrate practical knowledge how to solve problems, not whether or not they have memorized stuff (which is what the exam would be about if the books were forbidden).
Now, of course, if the student didn't learn anything, the books will not help - they would spend most of their time searching for information and run out of time.
One disadvantage of this approach is obvious - it puts a bigger onus on the examiner to prepare meaningful exams.
Assignments like "Implement quicksort" are useless, because the students can find them ready made online or in the book.
On the other hand, I do not think it makes much sense to examine whether or not a person can implement quicksort - it is not a real-world problem.
Better give them an assignment where the quicksort needs to be used - the clueless one will not find it online so he cannot readily cheat and the smarter one will see the similarity and solve the assignment without problem.
To conclude, I do not believe in the various software to catch cheaters.
Especially not in CS - the students are very smart and will be always able to game it.
If the teacher is doing their job, this is not needed.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31119494</id>
	<title>This is how I hunted copycats...</title>
	<author>AlgorithMan</author>
	<datestamp>1265970360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This is how I hunted copycats in my tutorial groups:<br> <br>

I wrote a little program that removes comments. If you are serious, you might also rename variables and functions so they are uniformly (that's not SO bad, if you use <i>lex</i> &amp; <i>yacc</i>)... then run a <i>diff</i> on all pairs of codes (no, use a BASH script!), that ignores whitespace differences (<i>-b -B</i>) and pipe the result through <i>wc -l</i> to count how many lines <i>diff</i> wrote.<br> <br>

pairs that have a small number are suspicious and should be compared manually.<br>
pairs that have a 0 are pretty much guaranteed to be copies...</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is how I hunted copycats in my tutorial groups : I wrote a little program that removes comments .
If you are serious , you might also rename variables and functions so they are uniformly ( that 's not SO bad , if you use lex &amp; yacc ) ... then run a diff on all pairs of codes ( no , use a BASH script !
) , that ignores whitespace differences ( -b -B ) and pipe the result through wc -l to count how many lines diff wrote .
pairs that have a small number are suspicious and should be compared manually .
pairs that have a 0 are pretty much guaranteed to be copies.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is how I hunted copycats in my tutorial groups: 

I wrote a little program that removes comments.
If you are serious, you might also rename variables and functions so they are uniformly (that's not SO bad, if you use lex &amp; yacc)... then run a diff on all pairs of codes (no, use a BASH script!
), that ignores whitespace differences (-b -B) and pipe the result through wc -l to count how many lines diff wrote.
pairs that have a small number are suspicious and should be compared manually.
pairs that have a 0 are pretty much guaranteed to be copies...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112126</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>dintech</author>
	<datestamp>1265985840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In university my friend and I worked together on the same assignment. We were in different tutor groups so we believed it wouldn't be detectable. Indeed it wasn't but he got 80/100 and I got 40/100! Mother f$@\%^&amp;. It's not like I could complain about it but my friend thoroughly enjoyed it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In university my friend and I worked together on the same assignment .
We were in different tutor groups so we believed it would n't be detectable .
Indeed it was n't but he got 80/100 and I got 40/100 !
Mother f $ @ \ % ^ &amp; .
It 's not like I could complain about it but my friend thoroughly enjoyed it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In university my friend and I worked together on the same assignment.
We were in different tutor groups so we believed it wouldn't be detectable.
Indeed it wasn't but he got 80/100 and I got 40/100!
Mother f$@\%^&amp;.
It's not like I could complain about it but my friend thoroughly enjoyed it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113458</id>
	<title>Re:Cheating is laziness...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265992320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I once had a professor who scaled everyone's marks so that he didn't look bad to the administration. Yes, this happens sometimes but this was the second class I had taken with this particular professor where the same thing had happened before. I know I should have failed but ended up with a C+. It was the same for most of my classmates, not doing well in the class but then getting a final mark clearly higher than they knew was possible based on the marking scheme he had provided the first day.</p><p>What was so frustrating was that the university had this course as a requirement towards graduation, JCL for mainframes. This was not the only antiquated course they required for your undergraduate degree while at the same time offering limited&mdash;as in one&mdash; course in OO and desktop application programming. Several of my profs were more interested in their "academic projects" than in their students' education.</p><p>Was cheating widespread among students? Yes. Did most of the faculty care? Not really, they were still getting paid to teach the same old subjects they had taught for 15+ years without interruption to their project funding or having to worry about upgrading their own education. The ones cheated here were the students when they went to get jobs after graduation.</p><p>This was all in the early/mid-nineties and by 2000 when enrolment in CS continued to fall the university had to finally overhauled both their curriculum and facility to catch up with the times. I recognize very few of the staff there now with the exception of those I deemed as worth to teach.</p><p>As for my scaling prof, he's also still there but as assistant dean and no longer teaching. Who says cheaters don't prosper.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I once had a professor who scaled everyone 's marks so that he did n't look bad to the administration .
Yes , this happens sometimes but this was the second class I had taken with this particular professor where the same thing had happened before .
I know I should have failed but ended up with a C + .
It was the same for most of my classmates , not doing well in the class but then getting a final mark clearly higher than they knew was possible based on the marking scheme he had provided the first day.What was so frustrating was that the university had this course as a requirement towards graduation , JCL for mainframes .
This was not the only antiquated course they required for your undergraduate degree while at the same time offering limited    as in one    course in OO and desktop application programming .
Several of my profs were more interested in their " academic projects " than in their students ' education.Was cheating widespread among students ?
Yes. Did most of the faculty care ?
Not really , they were still getting paid to teach the same old subjects they had taught for 15 + years without interruption to their project funding or having to worry about upgrading their own education .
The ones cheated here were the students when they went to get jobs after graduation.This was all in the early/mid-nineties and by 2000 when enrolment in CS continued to fall the university had to finally overhauled both their curriculum and facility to catch up with the times .
I recognize very few of the staff there now with the exception of those I deemed as worth to teach.As for my scaling prof , he 's also still there but as assistant dean and no longer teaching .
Who says cheaters do n't prosper .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I once had a professor who scaled everyone's marks so that he didn't look bad to the administration.
Yes, this happens sometimes but this was the second class I had taken with this particular professor where the same thing had happened before.
I know I should have failed but ended up with a C+.
It was the same for most of my classmates, not doing well in the class but then getting a final mark clearly higher than they knew was possible based on the marking scheme he had provided the first day.What was so frustrating was that the university had this course as a requirement towards graduation, JCL for mainframes.
This was not the only antiquated course they required for your undergraduate degree while at the same time offering limited—as in one— course in OO and desktop application programming.
Several of my profs were more interested in their "academic projects" than in their students' education.Was cheating widespread among students?
Yes. Did most of the faculty care?
Not really, they were still getting paid to teach the same old subjects they had taught for 15+ years without interruption to their project funding or having to worry about upgrading their own education.
The ones cheated here were the students when they went to get jobs after graduation.This was all in the early/mid-nineties and by 2000 when enrolment in CS continued to fall the university had to finally overhauled both their curriculum and facility to catch up with the times.
I recognize very few of the staff there now with the exception of those I deemed as worth to teach.As for my scaling prof, he's also still there but as assistant dean and no longer teaching.
Who says cheaters don't prosper.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111934</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113718</id>
	<title>students suspended for this at local tech school</title>
	<author>peter303</author>
	<datestamp>1265993400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>One of my classmates is a prof there and uses the pattern matching software.
The policy is pretty clear.  So are the results.  The prof sadly confesses the dean must suspend a couple students every year from his classes.</htmltext>
<tokenext>One of my classmates is a prof there and uses the pattern matching software .
The policy is pretty clear .
So are the results .
The prof sadly confesses the dean must suspend a couple students every year from his classes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One of my classmates is a prof there and uses the pattern matching software.
The policy is pretty clear.
So are the results.
The prof sadly confesses the dean must suspend a couple students every year from his classes.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112296</id>
	<title>Re:No outside help ?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265986800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Agreed.  Learning to ask for help, getting outside help, and incorporating that advice into your work is a huge part of learning.</p><p>There's definitely a sliding scale between:  "will you help me to understand X?" and "will you do X for me?"  And it's more than just a line between those two points, because there are other ways to get help, such as group projects, or working side-by-side with an expert.  It seems obvious to me that the intent of the code is to stop students before they get all the way to the latter.</p><p>Or perhaps the clause is temporally dependent:  maybe they really mean the code to say "will not plagiarize ever, will not copy work ever, and will not get outside help during an exam or quiz unless it has been explicitly permitted by my instructor."  (I'm thinking of one of my profs who holds "open-notes / open-laptop / closed-neighbor" exams.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Agreed .
Learning to ask for help , getting outside help , and incorporating that advice into your work is a huge part of learning.There 's definitely a sliding scale between : " will you help me to understand X ?
" and " will you do X for me ?
" And it 's more than just a line between those two points , because there are other ways to get help , such as group projects , or working side-by-side with an expert .
It seems obvious to me that the intent of the code is to stop students before they get all the way to the latter.Or perhaps the clause is temporally dependent : maybe they really mean the code to say " will not plagiarize ever , will not copy work ever , and will not get outside help during an exam or quiz unless it has been explicitly permitted by my instructor .
" ( I 'm thinking of one of my profs who holds " open-notes / open-laptop / closed-neighbor " exams .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Agreed.
Learning to ask for help, getting outside help, and incorporating that advice into your work is a huge part of learning.There's definitely a sliding scale between:  "will you help me to understand X?
" and "will you do X for me?
"  And it's more than just a line between those two points, because there are other ways to get help, such as group projects, or working side-by-side with an expert.
It seems obvious to me that the intent of the code is to stop students before they get all the way to the latter.Or perhaps the clause is temporally dependent:  maybe they really mean the code to say "will not plagiarize ever, will not copy work ever, and will not get outside help during an exam or quiz unless it has been explicitly permitted by my instructor.
"  (I'm thinking of one of my profs who holds "open-notes / open-laptop / closed-neighbor" exams.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111980</id>
	<title>Dumb cheats are easy to catch</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265985060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You can obfuscate someone else's code such that the prof won't notice.  OTOH, if you don't know what you are doing,  you will make some dumb mistake that will lead to your detection.  My favorite was the student who left in all the inline comments (probably because he didn't recognize them for what they were).</p><p>Students who can successfully disguise someone else's code could probably write their own code and are just being lazy.  As such, it isn't a complete disaster if they pass the course somewhat undeservedly.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You can obfuscate someone else 's code such that the prof wo n't notice .
OTOH , if you do n't know what you are doing , you will make some dumb mistake that will lead to your detection .
My favorite was the student who left in all the inline comments ( probably because he did n't recognize them for what they were ) .Students who can successfully disguise someone else 's code could probably write their own code and are just being lazy .
As such , it is n't a complete disaster if they pass the course somewhat undeservedly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You can obfuscate someone else's code such that the prof won't notice.
OTOH, if you don't know what you are doing,  you will make some dumb mistake that will lead to your detection.
My favorite was the student who left in all the inline comments (probably because he didn't recognize them for what they were).Students who can successfully disguise someone else's code could probably write their own code and are just being lazy.
As such, it isn't a complete disaster if they pass the course somewhat undeservedly.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112226</id>
	<title>My experience with cheating</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265986380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was an undergrad at a small state school at a time when CS was the ticket to a guaranteed well-paying job.  The department at the time was growing in the tens of percent per year due to the rate of people joining the program.  Unfortunately, cheating rapidly became so rampant that when I graduated, as few as 10\% (by one professor's estimates) of those graduating could actually write a compiling program in any language.  The department was set up from the start in a way that encouraged students to copy code.  The introductory class in Java consisted of copying a professor's code off of an overhead and running it for credit, so that only students that started with an understanding of Java actually left introductory CS with an idea of how to write a Java program.   Fast-forward to my senior year to see just how bad the problem actually was:</p><p>One professor, upset with rampant cheating, suggested that a second-year competency exam should be given where students are expected to write programs to do something basic like a sort or search in an environment where they were supervised in order to prevent cheating.  Professors more concerned with the growth in the department and with the influx of funding were so angry about this suggestion that they nearly came to blows.</p><p>In a senior-level assembly programming class, a student came to me for help because he didn't understand it.  Looking for an analogy he'd understand, I started going backwards through everything we'd ostensibly learned in the program asking, "Do you understand this?  Can you do this?", and the response to each question was no.  Finally, I came to, "Can you write a Hello World program in Java?"  He responded, "No."  At this point I told him that there was no way I could help him and that he'd probably want to consider retaking the introductory courses to CS.  He started crying.  It is really pathetic to see a grown man with a wife and kids cry.  I asked him to stop, suggested that he reflect on how this came to be, and consider a different career since he'd never survive as a programmer.  He asked me if he could make a copy of my notes and I agreed.  The next day, he and about 12 other foreign students handed in photocopies of my notes (which weren't even a functioning assembly program) with my name still on them.  They all got an A on the assignment, which the prof had obviously never even looked at.</p><p>For a larger sample, consider our senior project.  We were assigned groups of four students to write a complex program over two semesters.  Each group had to meet with a faculty advisor every week, and I was usually the only one of the four that actually showed up.  Incidentally, I was also the only one actually working on the program since the rest of my group simply wouldn't respond to e-mails for months at a time.  In the last weeks, desperate to show that they had done some sort of work, the rest of my group came to me begging for something to do.  I told one to write some HTML for the web front-end of my program, and asked the other two to work together to use the API that I'd developed in a user-friendly GUI.  The results were hilariously bad.  The HTML I was handed was the department web-page with some images and text changed.  The GUI was the e-mail I sent them with some random pieces of Java and C++ sprinkled in here and there.  When I brought this to the attention of the prof, he agreed that my group had done essentially nothing and passed them all.  The major observation here is that out of four randomly selected students, the only one that could even provide something that worked had copied it from the department web page.  Further, most of the other senior projects that I saw that day looked like something I could have slapped together in a couple of hours.</p><p>The moral of the story is that, at least in the early 2000s, cheating had become easy due to the easy availability of code, apathy on the part of the faculty, classes built around a fundamentally bad premise, and that the department was more interested in funding than producing qualified students.  I don't know if this is still the case, but this article leads me to believe that it may still be.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was an undergrad at a small state school at a time when CS was the ticket to a guaranteed well-paying job .
The department at the time was growing in the tens of percent per year due to the rate of people joining the program .
Unfortunately , cheating rapidly became so rampant that when I graduated , as few as 10 \ % ( by one professor 's estimates ) of those graduating could actually write a compiling program in any language .
The department was set up from the start in a way that encouraged students to copy code .
The introductory class in Java consisted of copying a professor 's code off of an overhead and running it for credit , so that only students that started with an understanding of Java actually left introductory CS with an idea of how to write a Java program .
Fast-forward to my senior year to see just how bad the problem actually was : One professor , upset with rampant cheating , suggested that a second-year competency exam should be given where students are expected to write programs to do something basic like a sort or search in an environment where they were supervised in order to prevent cheating .
Professors more concerned with the growth in the department and with the influx of funding were so angry about this suggestion that they nearly came to blows.In a senior-level assembly programming class , a student came to me for help because he did n't understand it .
Looking for an analogy he 'd understand , I started going backwards through everything we 'd ostensibly learned in the program asking , " Do you understand this ?
Can you do this ?
" , and the response to each question was no .
Finally , I came to , " Can you write a Hello World program in Java ?
" He responded , " No .
" At this point I told him that there was no way I could help him and that he 'd probably want to consider retaking the introductory courses to CS .
He started crying .
It is really pathetic to see a grown man with a wife and kids cry .
I asked him to stop , suggested that he reflect on how this came to be , and consider a different career since he 'd never survive as a programmer .
He asked me if he could make a copy of my notes and I agreed .
The next day , he and about 12 other foreign students handed in photocopies of my notes ( which were n't even a functioning assembly program ) with my name still on them .
They all got an A on the assignment , which the prof had obviously never even looked at.For a larger sample , consider our senior project .
We were assigned groups of four students to write a complex program over two semesters .
Each group had to meet with a faculty advisor every week , and I was usually the only one of the four that actually showed up .
Incidentally , I was also the only one actually working on the program since the rest of my group simply would n't respond to e-mails for months at a time .
In the last weeks , desperate to show that they had done some sort of work , the rest of my group came to me begging for something to do .
I told one to write some HTML for the web front-end of my program , and asked the other two to work together to use the API that I 'd developed in a user-friendly GUI .
The results were hilariously bad .
The HTML I was handed was the department web-page with some images and text changed .
The GUI was the e-mail I sent them with some random pieces of Java and C + + sprinkled in here and there .
When I brought this to the attention of the prof , he agreed that my group had done essentially nothing and passed them all .
The major observation here is that out of four randomly selected students , the only one that could even provide something that worked had copied it from the department web page .
Further , most of the other senior projects that I saw that day looked like something I could have slapped together in a couple of hours.The moral of the story is that , at least in the early 2000s , cheating had become easy due to the easy availability of code , apathy on the part of the faculty , classes built around a fundamentally bad premise , and that the department was more interested in funding than producing qualified students .
I do n't know if this is still the case , but this article leads me to believe that it may still be .
   </tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was an undergrad at a small state school at a time when CS was the ticket to a guaranteed well-paying job.
The department at the time was growing in the tens of percent per year due to the rate of people joining the program.
Unfortunately, cheating rapidly became so rampant that when I graduated, as few as 10\% (by one professor's estimates) of those graduating could actually write a compiling program in any language.
The department was set up from the start in a way that encouraged students to copy code.
The introductory class in Java consisted of copying a professor's code off of an overhead and running it for credit, so that only students that started with an understanding of Java actually left introductory CS with an idea of how to write a Java program.
Fast-forward to my senior year to see just how bad the problem actually was:One professor, upset with rampant cheating, suggested that a second-year competency exam should be given where students are expected to write programs to do something basic like a sort or search in an environment where they were supervised in order to prevent cheating.
Professors more concerned with the growth in the department and with the influx of funding were so angry about this suggestion that they nearly came to blows.In a senior-level assembly programming class, a student came to me for help because he didn't understand it.
Looking for an analogy he'd understand, I started going backwards through everything we'd ostensibly learned in the program asking, "Do you understand this?
Can you do this?
", and the response to each question was no.
Finally, I came to, "Can you write a Hello World program in Java?
"  He responded, "No.
"  At this point I told him that there was no way I could help him and that he'd probably want to consider retaking the introductory courses to CS.
He started crying.
It is really pathetic to see a grown man with a wife and kids cry.
I asked him to stop, suggested that he reflect on how this came to be, and consider a different career since he'd never survive as a programmer.
He asked me if he could make a copy of my notes and I agreed.
The next day, he and about 12 other foreign students handed in photocopies of my notes (which weren't even a functioning assembly program) with my name still on them.
They all got an A on the assignment, which the prof had obviously never even looked at.For a larger sample, consider our senior project.
We were assigned groups of four students to write a complex program over two semesters.
Each group had to meet with a faculty advisor every week, and I was usually the only one of the four that actually showed up.
Incidentally, I was also the only one actually working on the program since the rest of my group simply wouldn't respond to e-mails for months at a time.
In the last weeks, desperate to show that they had done some sort of work, the rest of my group came to me begging for something to do.
I told one to write some HTML for the web front-end of my program, and asked the other two to work together to use the API that I'd developed in a user-friendly GUI.
The results were hilariously bad.
The HTML I was handed was the department web-page with some images and text changed.
The GUI was the e-mail I sent them with some random pieces of Java and C++ sprinkled in here and there.
When I brought this to the attention of the prof, he agreed that my group had done essentially nothing and passed them all.
The major observation here is that out of four randomly selected students, the only one that could even provide something that worked had copied it from the department web page.
Further, most of the other senior projects that I saw that day looked like something I could have slapped together in a couple of hours.The moral of the story is that, at least in the early 2000s, cheating had become easy due to the easy availability of code, apathy on the part of the faculty, classes built around a fundamentally bad premise, and that the department was more interested in funding than producing qualified students.
I don't know if this is still the case, but this article leads me to believe that it may still be.
   </sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112190</id>
	<title>Easy. Wallhacks, aimbots, all at hand's reach...</title>
	<author>SharpFang</author>
	<datestamp>1265986200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>oh, this is not about CounterStrike?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>oh , this is not about CounterStrike ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>oh, this is not about CounterStrike?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117604</id>
	<title>Re:are you marked as a cheater for reusing your co</title>
	<author>pclminion</author>
	<datestamp>1265965500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <em>any ways pro codes reuse code and copy and paste others work all the time and most of the time there are no 1 man coding out there for a lot of software.</em> </p><p>Pros do reuse code, but they do so by modularizing it into libraries and abstracting its functions into well-defined APIs. Pros do not copy and paste. If your idea of code reuse includes Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V, you're not a professional.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>any ways pro codes reuse code and copy and paste others work all the time and most of the time there are no 1 man coding out there for a lot of software .
Pros do reuse code , but they do so by modularizing it into libraries and abstracting its functions into well-defined APIs .
Pros do not copy and paste .
If your idea of code reuse includes Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V , you 're not a professional .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> any ways pro codes reuse code and copy and paste others work all the time and most of the time there are no 1 man coding out there for a lot of software.
Pros do reuse code, but they do so by modularizing it into libraries and abstracting its functions into well-defined APIs.
Pros do not copy and paste.
If your idea of code reuse includes Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V, you're not a professional.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112188</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113680</id>
	<title>Caught "Cheating" Freshman Year</title>
	<author>geoffrobinson</author>
	<datestamp>1265993220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>One of my best friends form high school and I went to the same college. We had the same Comp Sci teacher all throughout high school and we had the same class our first semester.</p><p>Well, we had a simple little assignment in class and our code looked exactly the same. We had to explain to the teacher our background and how our identical training produced the same exact code given his requirements.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>One of my best friends form high school and I went to the same college .
We had the same Comp Sci teacher all throughout high school and we had the same class our first semester.Well , we had a simple little assignment in class and our code looked exactly the same .
We had to explain to the teacher our background and how our identical training produced the same exact code given his requirements .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One of my best friends form high school and I went to the same college.
We had the same Comp Sci teacher all throughout high school and we had the same class our first semester.Well, we had a simple little assignment in class and our code looked exactly the same.
We had to explain to the teacher our background and how our identical training produced the same exact code given his requirements.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115082</id>
	<title>Predictably Irrational</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265998320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In Predictably Irrational [0] Dan Ariely shows how reminding people ('priming') about honour, about ethical rules before doing a test reduces greatly the cheating. In fact he shows an experiment in which he makes people take a test, first reminding them of the 'MIT honour code' (in the book he says there isn't one) and compared to the control group the average of correct questions answered is the same. I think there is a TED video [1] about this. Maybe they could try it in Stanford.</p><p>[0] http://www.predictablyirrational.com/?page\_id=6<br>[1] http://www.ted.com/talks/dan\_ariely\_on\_our\_buggy\_moral\_code.html</p><p>Cheers</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In Predictably Irrational [ 0 ] Dan Ariely shows how reminding people ( 'priming ' ) about honour , about ethical rules before doing a test reduces greatly the cheating .
In fact he shows an experiment in which he makes people take a test , first reminding them of the 'MIT honour code ' ( in the book he says there is n't one ) and compared to the control group the average of correct questions answered is the same .
I think there is a TED video [ 1 ] about this .
Maybe they could try it in Stanford .
[ 0 ] http : //www.predictablyirrational.com/ ? page \ _id = 6 [ 1 ] http : //www.ted.com/talks/dan \ _ariely \ _on \ _our \ _buggy \ _moral \ _code.htmlCheers</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In Predictably Irrational [0] Dan Ariely shows how reminding people ('priming') about honour, about ethical rules before doing a test reduces greatly the cheating.
In fact he shows an experiment in which he makes people take a test, first reminding them of the 'MIT honour code' (in the book he says there isn't one) and compared to the control group the average of correct questions answered is the same.
I think there is a TED video [1] about this.
Maybe they could try it in Stanford.
[0] http://www.predictablyirrational.com/?page\_id=6[1] http://www.ted.com/talks/dan\_ariely\_on\_our\_buggy\_moral\_code.htmlCheers</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113466</id>
	<title>Re:When stealing code...</title>
	<author>SatanicPuppy</author>
	<datestamp>1265992320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I stole bad code once. True story.</p><p>Senior year, tons of hellish classes, and two huge project-driven coding classes. Now, one class was group projects, and the other class was solo. And it turned out that 3 of the 4 people in my group were in both classes.</p><p>So due date is coming around for both projects and they were due 8 hours apart (midnight thursday and 8am friday) and the two other guys in the group stop working on the group project and start working on their solo class project...Together. I say, "Fine, I'll do your share of the group project, but I want a copy of the solo thing."</p><p>So they give me a copy, and I take it home and try to make it work. Can't make it work. Can't even figure out how it's <em>supposed</em> to work. Ended up giving up and going to bed. Got up, did the solo project from scratch and turned it in 2 days late for a 40\% reduction in the grade. Fine.</p><p>So I get my grade, 58, missed some little stupid 2 point thing somewhere, woulda been a goddamn <em>98</em> grumble grumble. One of the guys from my group came up to me and said, "Hey, what did you get?"</p><p>I say "58," and I kinda snarled it because I was pissed.</p><p>He says, without missing a beat, "58? I got a 5! Why didn't you give me your code?!"</p><p>Turns out the class average for that project was a 7. Heh. Those two jokers never managed to contribute anything to our group project either. We got the highest grade in the class on the group project for that turn in...Not because we were the best, but because the group who <em>was</em> the best let people copy off of them, and they both got 0's.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I stole bad code once .
True story.Senior year , tons of hellish classes , and two huge project-driven coding classes .
Now , one class was group projects , and the other class was solo .
And it turned out that 3 of the 4 people in my group were in both classes.So due date is coming around for both projects and they were due 8 hours apart ( midnight thursday and 8am friday ) and the two other guys in the group stop working on the group project and start working on their solo class project...Together .
I say , " Fine , I 'll do your share of the group project , but I want a copy of the solo thing .
" So they give me a copy , and I take it home and try to make it work .
Ca n't make it work .
Ca n't even figure out how it 's supposed to work .
Ended up giving up and going to bed .
Got up , did the solo project from scratch and turned it in 2 days late for a 40 \ % reduction in the grade .
Fine.So I get my grade , 58 , missed some little stupid 2 point thing somewhere , woulda been a goddamn 98 grumble grumble .
One of the guys from my group came up to me and said , " Hey , what did you get ?
" I say " 58 , " and I kinda snarled it because I was pissed.He says , without missing a beat , " 58 ?
I got a 5 !
Why did n't you give me your code ? !
" Turns out the class average for that project was a 7 .
Heh. Those two jokers never managed to contribute anything to our group project either .
We got the highest grade in the class on the group project for that turn in...Not because we were the best , but because the group who was the best let people copy off of them , and they both got 0 's .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I stole bad code once.
True story.Senior year, tons of hellish classes, and two huge project-driven coding classes.
Now, one class was group projects, and the other class was solo.
And it turned out that 3 of the 4 people in my group were in both classes.So due date is coming around for both projects and they were due 8 hours apart (midnight thursday and 8am friday) and the two other guys in the group stop working on the group project and start working on their solo class project...Together.
I say, "Fine, I'll do your share of the group project, but I want a copy of the solo thing.
"So they give me a copy, and I take it home and try to make it work.
Can't make it work.
Can't even figure out how it's supposed to work.
Ended up giving up and going to bed.
Got up, did the solo project from scratch and turned it in 2 days late for a 40\% reduction in the grade.
Fine.So I get my grade, 58, missed some little stupid 2 point thing somewhere, woulda been a goddamn 98 grumble grumble.
One of the guys from my group came up to me and said, "Hey, what did you get?
"I say "58," and I kinda snarled it because I was pissed.He says, without missing a beat, "58?
I got a 5!
Why didn't you give me your code?!
"Turns out the class average for that project was a 7.
Heh. Those two jokers never managed to contribute anything to our group project either.
We got the highest grade in the class on the group project for that turn in...Not because we were the best, but because the group who was the best let people copy off of them, and they both got 0's.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111998</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113840</id>
	<title>Re:Expelled</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265993820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The hard part there is the false positive.  Cheating can be accomplished through collusion or theft, how does one tell?  Similarly, if the program is copied (presumably with any identifying information changed) how do you tell who created it and who copied it?  I had this happen to me once - I must not have logged out properly back in high school and a classmate submitted the a copy of my assignment.  Both of us were then accused of cheating.  If he had not caved, there would have been no easy way to tell who had written the original.  The same applies to cheating on tests - if errors match, it is easy to see that copying took place, but which is the original?  It seems rather wrong to severely punish someone for not hiding their test well enough.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The hard part there is the false positive .
Cheating can be accomplished through collusion or theft , how does one tell ?
Similarly , if the program is copied ( presumably with any identifying information changed ) how do you tell who created it and who copied it ?
I had this happen to me once - I must not have logged out properly back in high school and a classmate submitted the a copy of my assignment .
Both of us were then accused of cheating .
If he had not caved , there would have been no easy way to tell who had written the original .
The same applies to cheating on tests - if errors match , it is easy to see that copying took place , but which is the original ?
It seems rather wrong to severely punish someone for not hiding their test well enough .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The hard part there is the false positive.
Cheating can be accomplished through collusion or theft, how does one tell?
Similarly, if the program is copied (presumably with any identifying information changed) how do you tell who created it and who copied it?
I had this happen to me once - I must not have logged out properly back in high school and a classmate submitted the a copy of my assignment.
Both of us were then accused of cheating.
If he had not caved, there would have been no easy way to tell who had written the original.
The same applies to cheating on tests - if errors match, it is easy to see that copying took place, but which is the original?
It seems rather wrong to severely punish someone for not hiding their test well enough.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31116516</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe cheating in CS is easy...</title>
	<author>Dogbertius</author>
	<datestamp>1266004140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>... but also cheating in CS:S is not that difficult.

Valve should really stop those nasty cheaters.</p><p>Now that I've posted a reply, I'm going to RTFA.</p></div><p>You're supposed to be PLAGARIZING<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/., not reading it! Back to work!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>... but also cheating in CS : S is not that difficult .
Valve should really stop those nasty cheaters.Now that I 've posted a reply , I 'm going to RTFA.You 're supposed to be PLAGARIZING /. , not reading it !
Back to work !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... but also cheating in CS:S is not that difficult.
Valve should really stop those nasty cheaters.Now that I've posted a reply, I'm going to RTFA.You're supposed to be PLAGARIZING /., not reading it!
Back to work!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111926</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31118476</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>Darinbob</author>
	<datestamp>1265967720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>A snag in computer science, especially with the programming side of it, is that you often want to encourage cooperation.  Ie, to have groups of 2 to 4 working on the same assignment.  This is helpful as it allows students to work on larger projects, and it gives experience with working in teams (CS isn't really a "trade school" but learning to program is a nice side benefit).  The drawback is that someone can (and often does) slack off and let everyone else do the work.  It's a lot of professor and TA time to have to interview each student individually to ensure they actually did the work.<br><br>Of course this comes up in a lot of engineering and science classes; you want people to work in teams, but also not let cheaters slide along.  Sometimes labs are separate classes from the main course, so if you cheat in a lab it won't help you in the main class.  But CS courses very often integrate the lab and practical side in the same classes as the theory and lectures; that is you don't have an algorithms class separate from an algorithms lab class.<br><br>Some classes I graded that had larger projects involved the teams coming in to demonstrate the project, and then every member had to be able to answer questions you had about it or the design.  Granted, you wouldn't catch the people who crammed with their team members the night before so that they could bluff, but the fact that they had to cram was better than nothing (plus there were still midterms and finals).<br><br>Generally in upper division courses  the concern isn't over good programming.  The profs generally just wanted to know that the programs mostly worked and that you pulled your own weight, as these were just exercises to help you understand the core material better.</htmltext>
<tokenext>A snag in computer science , especially with the programming side of it , is that you often want to encourage cooperation .
Ie , to have groups of 2 to 4 working on the same assignment .
This is helpful as it allows students to work on larger projects , and it gives experience with working in teams ( CS is n't really a " trade school " but learning to program is a nice side benefit ) .
The drawback is that someone can ( and often does ) slack off and let everyone else do the work .
It 's a lot of professor and TA time to have to interview each student individually to ensure they actually did the work.Of course this comes up in a lot of engineering and science classes ; you want people to work in teams , but also not let cheaters slide along .
Sometimes labs are separate classes from the main course , so if you cheat in a lab it wo n't help you in the main class .
But CS courses very often integrate the lab and practical side in the same classes as the theory and lectures ; that is you do n't have an algorithms class separate from an algorithms lab class.Some classes I graded that had larger projects involved the teams coming in to demonstrate the project , and then every member had to be able to answer questions you had about it or the design .
Granted , you would n't catch the people who crammed with their team members the night before so that they could bluff , but the fact that they had to cram was better than nothing ( plus there were still midterms and finals ) .Generally in upper division courses the concern is n't over good programming .
The profs generally just wanted to know that the programs mostly worked and that you pulled your own weight , as these were just exercises to help you understand the core material better .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A snag in computer science, especially with the programming side of it, is that you often want to encourage cooperation.
Ie, to have groups of 2 to 4 working on the same assignment.
This is helpful as it allows students to work on larger projects, and it gives experience with working in teams (CS isn't really a "trade school" but learning to program is a nice side benefit).
The drawback is that someone can (and often does) slack off and let everyone else do the work.
It's a lot of professor and TA time to have to interview each student individually to ensure they actually did the work.Of course this comes up in a lot of engineering and science classes; you want people to work in teams, but also not let cheaters slide along.
Sometimes labs are separate classes from the main course, so if you cheat in a lab it won't help you in the main class.
But CS courses very often integrate the lab and practical side in the same classes as the theory and lectures; that is you don't have an algorithms class separate from an algorithms lab class.Some classes I graded that had larger projects involved the teams coming in to demonstrate the project, and then every member had to be able to answer questions you had about it or the design.
Granted, you wouldn't catch the people who crammed with their team members the night before so that they could bluff, but the fact that they had to cram was better than nothing (plus there were still midterms and finals).Generally in upper division courses  the concern isn't over good programming.
The profs generally just wanted to know that the programs mostly worked and that you pulled your own weight, as these were just exercises to help you understand the core material better.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112178</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113182</id>
	<title>It is called CSS now...</title>
	<author>g4b</author>
	<datestamp>1265991120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>CS is soooo 1999. Since Source, it is called &lt;b&gt;CSS&lt;/b&gt; now.<br><br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; * use your own source. buy Source on steam.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; * don't do everything in HTML.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; * cheat for IE.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; * ???<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; * Stanford Degree.</htmltext>
<tokenext>CS is soooo 1999 .
Since Source , it is called CSS now .
    * use your own source .
buy Source on steam .
    * do n't do everything in HTML .
    * cheat for IE .
    * ? ? ?
    * Stanford Degree .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>CS is soooo 1999.
Since Source, it is called CSS now.
    * use your own source.
buy Source on steam.
    * don't do everything in HTML.
    * cheat for IE.
    * ???
    * Stanford Degree.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111878</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112826</id>
	<title>Re:No outside help ?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265989380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm a CS prof. who has this policy -- no outside help. Your course textbook, the course website, and me are your options. However, I encourage my students to come talk to me, and most do. My students (the ones who do the work) *do* in fact learn.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm a CS prof. who has this policy -- no outside help .
Your course textbook , the course website , and me are your options .
However , I encourage my students to come talk to me , and most do .
My students ( the ones who do the work ) * do * in fact learn .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm a CS prof. who has this policy -- no outside help.
Your course textbook, the course website, and me are your options.
However, I encourage my students to come talk to me, and most do.
My students (the ones who do the work) *do* in fact learn.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862</id>
	<title>Who cheats who</title>
	<author>menegator</author>
	<datestamp>1265984100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>He/she who cheats discovers later why this is a bad idea.</htmltext>
<tokenext>He/she who cheats discovers later why this is a bad idea .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He/she who cheats discovers later why this is a bad idea.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115666</id>
	<title>Re:Half of the story.</title>
	<author>fizzup</author>
	<datestamp>1266000720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is the most important part of a group project in school - learning how to deal with people on the team who are not performing. When interviewing new grads, I always ask detailed questions about group projects in school to find out if the candidate was carried through on the abilities of others, or if he or she was one of the people doing the carrying.</p><p>If you think about your experience on group projects, you'll know what kinds of questions to ask by thinking about the traits shown by the classmates you liked to work with.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is the most important part of a group project in school - learning how to deal with people on the team who are not performing .
When interviewing new grads , I always ask detailed questions about group projects in school to find out if the candidate was carried through on the abilities of others , or if he or she was one of the people doing the carrying.If you think about your experience on group projects , you 'll know what kinds of questions to ask by thinking about the traits shown by the classmates you liked to work with .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is the most important part of a group project in school - learning how to deal with people on the team who are not performing.
When interviewing new grads, I always ask detailed questions about group projects in school to find out if the candidate was carried through on the abilities of others, or if he or she was one of the people doing the carrying.If you think about your experience on group projects, you'll know what kinds of questions to ask by thinking about the traits shown by the classmates you liked to work with.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111928</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112464</id>
	<title>Not a problem here...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265987760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Here in Germany, it would be pretty hard to pass the class, if you are cheating.</p><p>The final exam is 100\% of our grade and we have to succesfully solve the problems in the assignments to be even allowed to take that exam. Of course you could just copy every assignment, but you will definitely fail that final test. I dont know if that will provide better test results overall, but it sure as hell motivated me to do everything by myself.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Here in Germany , it would be pretty hard to pass the class , if you are cheating.The final exam is 100 \ % of our grade and we have to succesfully solve the problems in the assignments to be even allowed to take that exam .
Of course you could just copy every assignment , but you will definitely fail that final test .
I dont know if that will provide better test results overall , but it sure as hell motivated me to do everything by myself .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here in Germany, it would be pretty hard to pass the class, if you are cheating.The final exam is 100\% of our grade and we have to succesfully solve the problems in the assignments to be even allowed to take that exam.
Of course you could just copy every assignment, but you will definitely fail that final test.
I dont know if that will provide better test results overall, but it sure as hell motivated me to do everything by myself.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115652</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266000660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Professor always gave me a hard time, maybe because I was a frosh in a class of mostly seniors.</p><p>He was very sloppy; late to exams and showed up with them cold/wet (in the days of mimeo machines).<br>Not well prepared.</p><p>On his final, he botched the solution to one of his questions.  One person in the class got the same<br>botched answer, so he figured he'd done it right.  Everyone in the class who'd done it right got 4-8<br>points off a 20-point question.  Except me:  I got 16 points off.</p><p>Idjit.  But he's really famous in his field.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Professor always gave me a hard time , maybe because I was a frosh in a class of mostly seniors.He was very sloppy ; late to exams and showed up with them cold/wet ( in the days of mimeo machines ) .Not well prepared.On his final , he botched the solution to one of his questions .
One person in the class got the samebotched answer , so he figured he 'd done it right .
Everyone in the class who 'd done it right got 4-8points off a 20-point question .
Except me : I got 16 points off.Idjit .
But he 's really famous in his field .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Professor always gave me a hard time, maybe because I was a frosh in a class of mostly seniors.He was very sloppy; late to exams and showed up with them cold/wet (in the days of mimeo machines).Not well prepared.On his final, he botched the solution to one of his questions.
One person in the class got the samebotched answer, so he figured he'd done it right.
Everyone in the class who'd done it right got 4-8points off a 20-point question.
Except me:  I got 16 points off.Idjit.
But he's really famous in his field.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112126</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112932</id>
	<title>My CS copying story</title>
	<author>dargaud</author>
	<datestamp>1265989860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Everybody has copying stories from their student days, although here they seem to be referring more to plagiarizing than copying. Anyway, here's my story... Back when I was a student in CS about 20 years ago, we had a 2 hour exam of assembly language... to be done on a sheet of paper with no computer in sight (those were the days). Since I had been coding in assembly for more than a decade already, it was a piece of cake for me and maybe one or 2 other students. The 200 or so others had no idea what this was about. So in the days previous to the exam my popularity surged as I was bombarded with requests from friends to help them out.
<p>
I came up with a simple scheme: I would do the assignment, make a copy, go to the bathroom and leave a copy there. But the word spread that I would do that, so after I dropped my copy and came back to my seat, one, two, five, fifteen people started to get up to head for the bathroom. After a while the teacher grew suspicious and went to check and caught something like 15 student fighting over my few lines of assembly...
</p><p>
Now get off my lawn!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Everybody has copying stories from their student days , although here they seem to be referring more to plagiarizing than copying .
Anyway , here 's my story... Back when I was a student in CS about 20 years ago , we had a 2 hour exam of assembly language... to be done on a sheet of paper with no computer in sight ( those were the days ) .
Since I had been coding in assembly for more than a decade already , it was a piece of cake for me and maybe one or 2 other students .
The 200 or so others had no idea what this was about .
So in the days previous to the exam my popularity surged as I was bombarded with requests from friends to help them out .
I came up with a simple scheme : I would do the assignment , make a copy , go to the bathroom and leave a copy there .
But the word spread that I would do that , so after I dropped my copy and came back to my seat , one , two , five , fifteen people started to get up to head for the bathroom .
After a while the teacher grew suspicious and went to check and caught something like 15 student fighting over my few lines of assembly.. . Now get off my lawn !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Everybody has copying stories from their student days, although here they seem to be referring more to plagiarizing than copying.
Anyway, here's my story... Back when I was a student in CS about 20 years ago, we had a 2 hour exam of assembly language... to be done on a sheet of paper with no computer in sight (those were the days).
Since I had been coding in assembly for more than a decade already, it was a piece of cake for me and maybe one or 2 other students.
The 200 or so others had no idea what this was about.
So in the days previous to the exam my popularity surged as I was bombarded with requests from friends to help them out.
I came up with a simple scheme: I would do the assignment, make a copy, go to the bathroom and leave a copy there.
But the word spread that I would do that, so after I dropped my copy and came back to my seat, one, two, five, fifteen people started to get up to head for the bathroom.
After a while the teacher grew suspicious and went to check and caught something like 15 student fighting over my few lines of assembly...

Now get off my lawn!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115438</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>DarthVain</author>
	<datestamp>1265999880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ya I had the same thing happen to me.</p><p>I had some fiends take CS 101 late in their education. They had the same assignments. Two of them were in a bind, so I dug out my old assignment and gave it to them and said "go nuts". I did pretty well on it with a 80\%, which I cobbled together the night before in about 2 hours before going to the University pub.</p><p>Anyway one come up to me all excited, they got a 90\%. I was about to say "Son of a..." when the other showed me theirs, and the got 100\%. W.T.F. I was pissed.</p><p>I did something myself years later (not CS), where I did the exact same paper, for two different 3rd year courses with different professors. Exact same topic, same everything. I think I changed the font of one just to be not so blatant, though I think the actual title was the same, so likely moot. I got a 60\% on one and 80\% on another.</p><p>I had one CS prof deduct points one time for not using a recursive algorithm and another the same year deduct points for using one, even thought the purpose was pretty much the same (different languages however, one was COBAL the other was C+ I think).</p><p>I came to the conclusion through University, that unless you really screw it up (aka you have no idea what you are doing or talking about), professors have a large latitude in which to determine grades, and much of that does not seem to be based in any sort of technical rigor but rather personal preference. So A) Figure out what they like to see, and B) try to have them like you a bit.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ya I had the same thing happen to me.I had some fiends take CS 101 late in their education .
They had the same assignments .
Two of them were in a bind , so I dug out my old assignment and gave it to them and said " go nuts " .
I did pretty well on it with a 80 \ % , which I cobbled together the night before in about 2 hours before going to the University pub.Anyway one come up to me all excited , they got a 90 \ % .
I was about to say " Son of a... " when the other showed me theirs , and the got 100 \ % .
W.T.F. I was pissed.I did something myself years later ( not CS ) , where I did the exact same paper , for two different 3rd year courses with different professors .
Exact same topic , same everything .
I think I changed the font of one just to be not so blatant , though I think the actual title was the same , so likely moot .
I got a 60 \ % on one and 80 \ % on another.I had one CS prof deduct points one time for not using a recursive algorithm and another the same year deduct points for using one , even thought the purpose was pretty much the same ( different languages however , one was COBAL the other was C + I think ) .I came to the conclusion through University , that unless you really screw it up ( aka you have no idea what you are doing or talking about ) , professors have a large latitude in which to determine grades , and much of that does not seem to be based in any sort of technical rigor but rather personal preference .
So A ) Figure out what they like to see , and B ) try to have them like you a bit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ya I had the same thing happen to me.I had some fiends take CS 101 late in their education.
They had the same assignments.
Two of them were in a bind, so I dug out my old assignment and gave it to them and said "go nuts".
I did pretty well on it with a 80\%, which I cobbled together the night before in about 2 hours before going to the University pub.Anyway one come up to me all excited, they got a 90\%.
I was about to say "Son of a..." when the other showed me theirs, and the got 100\%.
W.T.F. I was pissed.I did something myself years later (not CS), where I did the exact same paper, for two different 3rd year courses with different professors.
Exact same topic, same everything.
I think I changed the font of one just to be not so blatant, though I think the actual title was the same, so likely moot.
I got a 60\% on one and 80\% on another.I had one CS prof deduct points one time for not using a recursive algorithm and another the same year deduct points for using one, even thought the purpose was pretty much the same (different languages however, one was COBAL the other was C+ I think).I came to the conclusion through University, that unless you really screw it up (aka you have no idea what you are doing or talking about), professors have a large latitude in which to determine grades, and much of that does not seem to be based in any sort of technical rigor but rather personal preference.
So A) Figure out what they like to see, and B) try to have them like you a bit.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112126</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31118938</id>
	<title>Re:No outside help ?</title>
	<author>ucblockhead</author>
	<datestamp>1265968920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When I was in college, I worked in the computer lab, and the bulk of my time was spent helping students with their assignments.  Sometimes, it was valuable, explaining how things worked, what the algorithms were, etc.  Other times, I'd get the "what do I type now" guys, who just wanted me to rattle off what the solution was.  I presume by "no outside help" they mean the latter.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When I was in college , I worked in the computer lab , and the bulk of my time was spent helping students with their assignments .
Sometimes , it was valuable , explaining how things worked , what the algorithms were , etc .
Other times , I 'd get the " what do I type now " guys , who just wanted me to rattle off what the solution was .
I presume by " no outside help " they mean the latter .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I was in college, I worked in the computer lab, and the bulk of my time was spent helping students with their assignments.
Sometimes, it was valuable, explaining how things worked, what the algorithms were, etc.
Other times, I'd get the "what do I type now" guys, who just wanted me to rattle off what the solution was.
I presume by "no outside help" they mean the latter.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112296</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112310</id>
	<title>Depends how CS101 goes</title>
	<author>kiehlster</author>
	<datestamp>1265986860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>We had the case of redundant solutions in our 101 classes, where everyone came up with the same solution to the same problem even though we didn't copy off each other.  After that, the professors didn't seem to care because they decided the homework problems were so simple that anyone could code the same solution without collaborating.  I certainly was honest, but when comparing solutions with classmates, it became pretty apparent how easy it would be to cheat.</htmltext>
<tokenext>We had the case of redundant solutions in our 101 classes , where everyone came up with the same solution to the same problem even though we did n't copy off each other .
After that , the professors did n't seem to care because they decided the homework problems were so simple that anyone could code the same solution without collaborating .
I certainly was honest , but when comparing solutions with classmates , it became pretty apparent how easy it would be to cheat .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We had the case of redundant solutions in our 101 classes, where everyone came up with the same solution to the same problem even though we didn't copy off each other.
After that, the professors didn't seem to care because they decided the homework problems were so simple that anyone could code the same solution without collaborating.
I certainly was honest, but when comparing solutions with classmates, it became pretty apparent how easy it would be to cheat.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114448</id>
	<title>Funny story about a caught cheater</title>
	<author>McDozer</author>
	<datestamp>1265996100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>At my University, one of the last classes we take before graduation is a Senior Seminar class, at the time the class was about ethics.  Well, the class was assigned a paper to write about ethics.  The professor actually read the papers, upon reading one girls paper he said.....'Hey, this girls English isn't this good.  There is no way she wrote this.  He googles the first time of the paper, bam, this 25 page paper pops up.  Turns out she had copied and pasted 14 pages of the 25 page paper and turned it in. Well, she was kicked out of University one class from graduation.  I thought it was rather funny.  She ended up moving back to India, who knows what happened after that.</htmltext>
<tokenext>At my University , one of the last classes we take before graduation is a Senior Seminar class , at the time the class was about ethics .
Well , the class was assigned a paper to write about ethics .
The professor actually read the papers , upon reading one girls paper he said.....'Hey , this girls English is n't this good .
There is no way she wrote this .
He googles the first time of the paper , bam , this 25 page paper pops up .
Turns out she had copied and pasted 14 pages of the 25 page paper and turned it in .
Well , she was kicked out of University one class from graduation .
I thought it was rather funny .
She ended up moving back to India , who knows what happened after that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At my University, one of the last classes we take before graduation is a Senior Seminar class, at the time the class was about ethics.
Well, the class was assigned a paper to write about ethics.
The professor actually read the papers, upon reading one girls paper he said.....'Hey, this girls English isn't this good.
There is no way she wrote this.
He googles the first time of the paper, bam, this 25 page paper pops up.
Turns out she had copied and pasted 14 pages of the 25 page paper and turned it in.
Well, she was kicked out of University one class from graduation.
I thought it was rather funny.
She ended up moving back to India, who knows what happened after that.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113270</id>
	<title>It still gets to me</title>
	<author>xZgf6xHx2uhoAj9D</author>
	<datestamp>1265991540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have some really stupid cheater stories, of course. Like the guy who handed in <i>verbatim</i> his buddy's assignment, including his buddy's name and student number at the top of the comments, and still kept denying it. Those are the easy cases to deal with and, while kind of funny, not very meaningful. If they fess up and apologize and co-operate you give them negative 100\%; if they don't you give them an academic offence (which means automatically failing the course and automatically getting expelled from the university if they get a second offence).
</p><p>There's definitely a lot more cheating going on than I can find evidence for, which I've come to accept is mostly out of my control. My only two real strategies for combatting it are to make the assignments as exciting/interesting as I can so that students don't mind doing them so much, and mandate that you need at least 50\% on the exams to pass the course so that you can't get through just on the assignments.
</p><p>The one that still affects me is a girl I had in a first-year course in my first year of TAing. She was one of the "cool kids" (a little slow transitioning out of her popular high school kid days, you know). Her friends sort of lived for partying and never took any of their courses seriously: most of them ended up failing the CS course. It was a lab scenario where it was scheduled for 2 hours, but if you finished your work in an hour (which many did), you left early. After all her friends had finished the bare minimum and had left, she would stick around, though, for an extra half hour or hour, asking questions and redoing the work she'd already done to make sure she understood it at all properly. She wasn't doing insanely well--I think she was carrying a mark in the course somewhere around the high 70s--but definitely better than her friends and she was putting a lot of work into what obviously didn't come naturally for her.
</p><p>Then came her final assignment of the course. It was gorgeous! It was their only assignment where they had to incorporate object-oriented design (the course was taught in C++) and she did everything perfectly. It was definitely the best assignment out of the entire class, and we had a lot of really smart cookies in the class. I wrote glowing praises all over it. I ran into her at a bus stop a month or so later and gushed about how impressive her assignment was and how much work she must have put it into it and she just quietly smiled and didn't say much beyond "thank you".
</p><p>Then about a year later I ran into one of her friends and the topic of her came up again. I said again how impressive it was and said "either she found someone else to write it or she put a <i>lot</i> of work into that". He got awkward and said "I don't want to get her in trouble, but let's just say she didn't put a lot of work into it".
</p><p>It really did a number on me. I was at the end of my Master's degree at the time and it through me for a loop, wondering if I even wanted to come back for my Ph.D. Research is okay and all, but really the <i>only</i> reason I was in grad school was for the teaching. I eventually did go back and things have gone well, but it surprised me what effect one (previously) good student cheating can have on you<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:\</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have some really stupid cheater stories , of course .
Like the guy who handed in verbatim his buddy 's assignment , including his buddy 's name and student number at the top of the comments , and still kept denying it .
Those are the easy cases to deal with and , while kind of funny , not very meaningful .
If they fess up and apologize and co-operate you give them negative 100 \ % ; if they do n't you give them an academic offence ( which means automatically failing the course and automatically getting expelled from the university if they get a second offence ) .
There 's definitely a lot more cheating going on than I can find evidence for , which I 've come to accept is mostly out of my control .
My only two real strategies for combatting it are to make the assignments as exciting/interesting as I can so that students do n't mind doing them so much , and mandate that you need at least 50 \ % on the exams to pass the course so that you ca n't get through just on the assignments .
The one that still affects me is a girl I had in a first-year course in my first year of TAing .
She was one of the " cool kids " ( a little slow transitioning out of her popular high school kid days , you know ) .
Her friends sort of lived for partying and never took any of their courses seriously : most of them ended up failing the CS course .
It was a lab scenario where it was scheduled for 2 hours , but if you finished your work in an hour ( which many did ) , you left early .
After all her friends had finished the bare minimum and had left , she would stick around , though , for an extra half hour or hour , asking questions and redoing the work she 'd already done to make sure she understood it at all properly .
She was n't doing insanely well--I think she was carrying a mark in the course somewhere around the high 70s--but definitely better than her friends and she was putting a lot of work into what obviously did n't come naturally for her .
Then came her final assignment of the course .
It was gorgeous !
It was their only assignment where they had to incorporate object-oriented design ( the course was taught in C + + ) and she did everything perfectly .
It was definitely the best assignment out of the entire class , and we had a lot of really smart cookies in the class .
I wrote glowing praises all over it .
I ran into her at a bus stop a month or so later and gushed about how impressive her assignment was and how much work she must have put it into it and she just quietly smiled and did n't say much beyond " thank you " .
Then about a year later I ran into one of her friends and the topic of her came up again .
I said again how impressive it was and said " either she found someone else to write it or she put a lot of work into that " .
He got awkward and said " I do n't want to get her in trouble , but let 's just say she did n't put a lot of work into it " .
It really did a number on me .
I was at the end of my Master 's degree at the time and it through me for a loop , wondering if I even wanted to come back for my Ph.D. Research is okay and all , but really the only reason I was in grad school was for the teaching .
I eventually did go back and things have gone well , but it surprised me what effect one ( previously ) good student cheating can have on you : \</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have some really stupid cheater stories, of course.
Like the guy who handed in verbatim his buddy's assignment, including his buddy's name and student number at the top of the comments, and still kept denying it.
Those are the easy cases to deal with and, while kind of funny, not very meaningful.
If they fess up and apologize and co-operate you give them negative 100\%; if they don't you give them an academic offence (which means automatically failing the course and automatically getting expelled from the university if they get a second offence).
There's definitely a lot more cheating going on than I can find evidence for, which I've come to accept is mostly out of my control.
My only two real strategies for combatting it are to make the assignments as exciting/interesting as I can so that students don't mind doing them so much, and mandate that you need at least 50\% on the exams to pass the course so that you can't get through just on the assignments.
The one that still affects me is a girl I had in a first-year course in my first year of TAing.
She was one of the "cool kids" (a little slow transitioning out of her popular high school kid days, you know).
Her friends sort of lived for partying and never took any of their courses seriously: most of them ended up failing the CS course.
It was a lab scenario where it was scheduled for 2 hours, but if you finished your work in an hour (which many did), you left early.
After all her friends had finished the bare minimum and had left, she would stick around, though, for an extra half hour or hour, asking questions and redoing the work she'd already done to make sure she understood it at all properly.
She wasn't doing insanely well--I think she was carrying a mark in the course somewhere around the high 70s--but definitely better than her friends and she was putting a lot of work into what obviously didn't come naturally for her.
Then came her final assignment of the course.
It was gorgeous!
It was their only assignment where they had to incorporate object-oriented design (the course was taught in C++) and she did everything perfectly.
It was definitely the best assignment out of the entire class, and we had a lot of really smart cookies in the class.
I wrote glowing praises all over it.
I ran into her at a bus stop a month or so later and gushed about how impressive her assignment was and how much work she must have put it into it and she just quietly smiled and didn't say much beyond "thank you".
Then about a year later I ran into one of her friends and the topic of her came up again.
I said again how impressive it was and said "either she found someone else to write it or she put a lot of work into that".
He got awkward and said "I don't want to get her in trouble, but let's just say she didn't put a lot of work into it".
It really did a number on me.
I was at the end of my Master's degree at the time and it through me for a loop, wondering if I even wanted to come back for my Ph.D. Research is okay and all, but really the only reason I was in grad school was for the teaching.
I eventually did go back and things have gone well, but it surprised me what effect one (previously) good student cheating can have on you :\</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942</id>
	<title>On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>sycodon</author>
	<datestamp>1265984760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When you get into a corporate environment, "cheating" is actually preferred. No reason to re-invent the wheel when there is existing code that gets the job done.</p><p>Need a report that's "like this one except for..."? Take the code for that report and add some mods and there ya go. Your manager would consider you an idiot if you started each project from scratch, re-writing all the functions and methods that already exist in other applications and have perhaps already gone through rigorous QA.</p><p>Besides, how many ways can you write a QuickSort?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When you get into a corporate environment , " cheating " is actually preferred .
No reason to re-invent the wheel when there is existing code that gets the job done.Need a report that 's " like this one except for... " ?
Take the code for that report and add some mods and there ya go .
Your manager would consider you an idiot if you started each project from scratch , re-writing all the functions and methods that already exist in other applications and have perhaps already gone through rigorous QA.Besides , how many ways can you write a QuickSort ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When you get into a corporate environment, "cheating" is actually preferred.
No reason to re-invent the wheel when there is existing code that gets the job done.Need a report that's "like this one except for..."?
Take the code for that report and add some mods and there ya go.
Your manager would consider you an idiot if you started each project from scratch, re-writing all the functions and methods that already exist in other applications and have perhaps already gone through rigorous QA.Besides, how many ways can you write a QuickSort?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117376</id>
	<title>Why nobody plagiarize  someone elses...</title>
	<author>ub3r n3u7r4l1st</author>
	<datestamp>1266008040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>tax returns?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>tax returns ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>tax returns?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115928</id>
	<title>Re:No outside help ?</title>
	<author>Voltara</author>
	<datestamp>1266001620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I am wondering what exactly they are calling cheating here, since the code says they "will not plagiarize, copy work or get outside help."</p></div><p>Here's a good example of outside help:</p><p><a href="http://www.rentacoder.com/RentACoder/misc/BidRequests/ShowBidRequest.asp?lngBidRequestId=1242899" title="rentacoder.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.rentacoder.com/RentACoder/misc/BidRequests/ShowBidRequest.asp?lngBidRequestId=1242899</a> [rentacoder.com]</p><p>I once saw a RAC posting from someone who wanted all of his job interview pre-screen questions answered for him.  It was no surprise, when I had a look at his project history, that he had cheated his way through his degree as well.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I am wondering what exactly they are calling cheating here , since the code says they " will not plagiarize , copy work or get outside help .
" Here 's a good example of outside help : http : //www.rentacoder.com/RentACoder/misc/BidRequests/ShowBidRequest.asp ? lngBidRequestId = 1242899 [ rentacoder.com ] I once saw a RAC posting from someone who wanted all of his job interview pre-screen questions answered for him .
It was no surprise , when I had a look at his project history , that he had cheated his way through his degree as well .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am wondering what exactly they are calling cheating here, since the code says they "will not plagiarize, copy work or get outside help.
"Here's a good example of outside help:http://www.rentacoder.com/RentACoder/misc/BidRequests/ShowBidRequest.asp?lngBidRequestId=1242899 [rentacoder.com]I once saw a RAC posting from someone who wanted all of his job interview pre-screen questions answered for him.
It was no surprise, when I had a look at his project history, that he had cheated his way through his degree as well.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114432</id>
	<title>Malicious Cheating</title>
	<author>Temujin\_12</author>
	<datestamp>1265995980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My junior year there was a CS lab that was particularly tough at the end of the semester. I turned it in (a few days late) but managed to complete it (first true all-nighter I pulled in school). I was taking the final in the CS labs (they put 6 bugs into your program and you had to find and fix them) and a student next to me was escorted out into the hallway where the dean, a sysadmin, and another student were waiting for him.</p><p>Apparently, he couldn't pass the course unless he turned in that lab on time. So, when a student next to him got up to get a course TA to verify his program (without locking his screen), this student scp'ed a copy of the student's program over to his account. But he didn't stop there, he then deleted this students program and replaced it with a copy of his incomplete program.</p><p>The student whose program was stolen met up with the sysadmins and they were able to determine what happened by looking at logs.</p><p>Needless to say, the student cheating was expelled.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My junior year there was a CS lab that was particularly tough at the end of the semester .
I turned it in ( a few days late ) but managed to complete it ( first true all-nighter I pulled in school ) .
I was taking the final in the CS labs ( they put 6 bugs into your program and you had to find and fix them ) and a student next to me was escorted out into the hallway where the dean , a sysadmin , and another student were waiting for him.Apparently , he could n't pass the course unless he turned in that lab on time .
So , when a student next to him got up to get a course TA to verify his program ( without locking his screen ) , this student scp'ed a copy of the student 's program over to his account .
But he did n't stop there , he then deleted this students program and replaced it with a copy of his incomplete program.The student whose program was stolen met up with the sysadmins and they were able to determine what happened by looking at logs.Needless to say , the student cheating was expelled .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My junior year there was a CS lab that was particularly tough at the end of the semester.
I turned it in (a few days late) but managed to complete it (first true all-nighter I pulled in school).
I was taking the final in the CS labs (they put 6 bugs into your program and you had to find and fix them) and a student next to me was escorted out into the hallway where the dean, a sysadmin, and another student were waiting for him.Apparently, he couldn't pass the course unless he turned in that lab on time.
So, when a student next to him got up to get a course TA to verify his program (without locking his screen), this student scp'ed a copy of the student's program over to his account.
But he didn't stop there, he then deleted this students program and replaced it with a copy of his incomplete program.The student whose program was stolen met up with the sysadmins and they were able to determine what happened by looking at logs.Needless to say, the student cheating was expelled.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114386</id>
	<title>Re:A ramble from the TAs view</title>
	<author>metlin</author>
	<datestamp>1265995860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah, TFs have always been a pain to deal with.</p><p>Then again, some schools are well known for their grade inflation, and letting people back in even after suspension because they're caught cheating. A recently deceased Kennedy comes to mind.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , TFs have always been a pain to deal with.Then again , some schools are well known for their grade inflation , and letting people back in even after suspension because they 're caught cheating .
A recently deceased Kennedy comes to mind .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, TFs have always been a pain to deal with.Then again, some schools are well known for their grade inflation, and letting people back in even after suspension because they're caught cheating.
A recently deceased Kennedy comes to mind.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112094</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112346</id>
	<title>cheating in CS</title>
	<author>dnaumov</author>
	<datestamp>1265987100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I thought VAC was pretty decent in preventing cheating in CS and Valve has been banning cheaters left and right?</htmltext>
<tokenext>I thought VAC was pretty decent in preventing cheating in CS and Valve has been banning cheaters left and right ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I thought VAC was pretty decent in preventing cheating in CS and Valve has been banning cheaters left and right?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115326</id>
	<title>Re:Expelled</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265999460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There was immediate expulsion for cheating at my university.</p><p>It didn't stop anyone.  If they wanted to cheat, they cheated.  People mostly did their own work out of a sense of self-honor (or an inability to find someone to cheat off), not fear of reprisal.</p><p>It doesn't matter how severe a punishment is if no one thinks it will happen.  Imagine if I made it punishable by torture and death to type "I am the future overlord of Earth" into notepad, not save, and close the app.  Would that stop anyone?  Probably not - everyone knows it's completely unenforceable.</p><p>On the other hand, imagine if I put a cop on every corner to hand out $5 jaywalking tickets.  Would you still jaywalk?</p><p>Generally speaking, the evaluation of risk is more dependent on the odds of being punished than the punishment itself.  This is why long prison sentences are a waste of money.  A cop's salary is, what, $60K/year?  Prison for a single inmate is $21K/year.</p><p>For every three prisoners we have today, we could have 1 cop for the same price.  We have 2,304,115 prisoners in the USA.  Some percentage of those people shouldn't be released (violent or continually re-offending), but if even half of them weren't imprisoned today, we could have nearly 400K more police to prevent crimes from happening in the first place. According to the BLS, there are only 883,600 police and detectives today.</p><p>In essence, by having overly-long prison sentences, we cost ourselves a third of the police force that could be used to actually keep us safe.</p><p>Similarly, at schools, by having overly severe punishments but no perceived risk of punishment, we cost our honest students fair consideration against the cheaters, and cost the cheaters the skills they would have otherwise have gained, both of which weaken America as a country.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There was immediate expulsion for cheating at my university.It did n't stop anyone .
If they wanted to cheat , they cheated .
People mostly did their own work out of a sense of self-honor ( or an inability to find someone to cheat off ) , not fear of reprisal.It does n't matter how severe a punishment is if no one thinks it will happen .
Imagine if I made it punishable by torture and death to type " I am the future overlord of Earth " into notepad , not save , and close the app .
Would that stop anyone ?
Probably not - everyone knows it 's completely unenforceable.On the other hand , imagine if I put a cop on every corner to hand out $ 5 jaywalking tickets .
Would you still jaywalk ? Generally speaking , the evaluation of risk is more dependent on the odds of being punished than the punishment itself .
This is why long prison sentences are a waste of money .
A cop 's salary is , what , $ 60K/year ?
Prison for a single inmate is $ 21K/year.For every three prisoners we have today , we could have 1 cop for the same price .
We have 2,304,115 prisoners in the USA .
Some percentage of those people should n't be released ( violent or continually re-offending ) , but if even half of them were n't imprisoned today , we could have nearly 400K more police to prevent crimes from happening in the first place .
According to the BLS , there are only 883,600 police and detectives today.In essence , by having overly-long prison sentences , we cost ourselves a third of the police force that could be used to actually keep us safe.Similarly , at schools , by having overly severe punishments but no perceived risk of punishment , we cost our honest students fair consideration against the cheaters , and cost the cheaters the skills they would have otherwise have gained , both of which weaken America as a country .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There was immediate expulsion for cheating at my university.It didn't stop anyone.
If they wanted to cheat, they cheated.
People mostly did their own work out of a sense of self-honor (or an inability to find someone to cheat off), not fear of reprisal.It doesn't matter how severe a punishment is if no one thinks it will happen.
Imagine if I made it punishable by torture and death to type "I am the future overlord of Earth" into notepad, not save, and close the app.
Would that stop anyone?
Probably not - everyone knows it's completely unenforceable.On the other hand, imagine if I put a cop on every corner to hand out $5 jaywalking tickets.
Would you still jaywalk?Generally speaking, the evaluation of risk is more dependent on the odds of being punished than the punishment itself.
This is why long prison sentences are a waste of money.
A cop's salary is, what, $60K/year?
Prison for a single inmate is $21K/year.For every three prisoners we have today, we could have 1 cop for the same price.
We have 2,304,115 prisoners in the USA.
Some percentage of those people shouldn't be released (violent or continually re-offending), but if even half of them weren't imprisoned today, we could have nearly 400K more police to prevent crimes from happening in the first place.
According to the BLS, there are only 883,600 police and detectives today.In essence, by having overly-long prison sentences, we cost ourselves a third of the police force that could be used to actually keep us safe.Similarly, at schools, by having overly severe punishments but no perceived risk of punishment, we cost our honest students fair consideration against the cheaters, and cost the cheaters the skills they would have otherwise have gained, both of which weaken America as a country.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208</id>
	<title>Very easy, and very easy to get caught</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265986320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've been TAing every semester since I got to college, and every semester we tell people that we run their submissions through <a href="http://theory.stanford.edu/~aiken/moss/" title="stanford.edu">MOSS</a> [stanford.edu] (the canonical code plagiarism detector, hosted at [and perhaps developed at?] Stanford).  We exhort that it's really not worth their trouble to try to get their code past it, and that they really ought to just contact the course staff if they're in a bind, as there's really nothing worse for them than getting caught cheating.  And every semester, we find several pairs of students who have copied each others' code.  Sometimes it's a literal, word-for-word copy (comments too) with the name changed (or occasionally without!); sometimes it's the same structure with different comments, suggesting they just sat side by side and wrote the lab together.</p><p>I'd really like to see the penalty for cheating to be an immediate failure in the course, if not expulsion.  The idea that honest students spend hours working on an assignment, and then someone who didn't plan their time well, or doesn't get things as well, or is too lazy to ask for help thinks they can just not do the work and get the same grade is offensive, and cheaters should be punished accordingly.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've been TAing every semester since I got to college , and every semester we tell people that we run their submissions through MOSS [ stanford.edu ] ( the canonical code plagiarism detector , hosted at [ and perhaps developed at ?
] Stanford ) .
We exhort that it 's really not worth their trouble to try to get their code past it , and that they really ought to just contact the course staff if they 're in a bind , as there 's really nothing worse for them than getting caught cheating .
And every semester , we find several pairs of students who have copied each others ' code .
Sometimes it 's a literal , word-for-word copy ( comments too ) with the name changed ( or occasionally without !
) ; sometimes it 's the same structure with different comments , suggesting they just sat side by side and wrote the lab together.I 'd really like to see the penalty for cheating to be an immediate failure in the course , if not expulsion .
The idea that honest students spend hours working on an assignment , and then someone who did n't plan their time well , or does n't get things as well , or is too lazy to ask for help thinks they can just not do the work and get the same grade is offensive , and cheaters should be punished accordingly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've been TAing every semester since I got to college, and every semester we tell people that we run their submissions through MOSS [stanford.edu] (the canonical code plagiarism detector, hosted at [and perhaps developed at?
] Stanford).
We exhort that it's really not worth their trouble to try to get their code past it, and that they really ought to just contact the course staff if they're in a bind, as there's really nothing worse for them than getting caught cheating.
And every semester, we find several pairs of students who have copied each others' code.
Sometimes it's a literal, word-for-word copy (comments too) with the name changed (or occasionally without!
); sometimes it's the same structure with different comments, suggesting they just sat side by side and wrote the lab together.I'd really like to see the penalty for cheating to be an immediate failure in the course, if not expulsion.
The idea that honest students spend hours working on an assignment, and then someone who didn't plan their time well, or doesn't get things as well, or is too lazy to ask for help thinks they can just not do the work and get the same grade is offensive, and cheaters should be punished accordingly.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113380</id>
	<title>Re:A ramble from the TAs view</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265992020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I used to head TF CS classes at an Ivy League school (you can probably guess which one from my job title alone).</p></div><p>Team Fortress Counter Strike?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I used to head TF CS classes at an Ivy League school ( you can probably guess which one from my job title alone ) .Team Fortress Counter Strike ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I used to head TF CS classes at an Ivy League school (you can probably guess which one from my job title alone).Team Fortress Counter Strike?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112094</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31120780</id>
	<title>See?</title>
	<author>paxcoder</author>
	<datestamp>1265974320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>'I wasn't even thinking of how it [sic] easy it would for me to be caught,'</p></div><p>That's why you need sleep.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>'I was n't even thinking of how it [ sic ] easy it would for me to be caught,'That 's why you need sleep .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>'I wasn't even thinking of how it [sic] easy it would for me to be caught,'That's why you need sleep.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31124302</id>
	<title>Pretty Easy</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265995680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I graduated from a 4 year university recently, while they specialize more in engineering, they kick out a good number of CS degrees.  I could knock out code all day long (or all week long in the case of that damned b*-tree), but when it came to the upper level theory classes...turns out I'm more of code monkey than a mathematician.</p><p>I went through tons of trouble to obtain answer manuals and used Google extensively to find my answers.  Many book publisher websites offer a student and teacher side of their site, the teacher side offering the answer manuals for download.  You'd be surprised, or maybe not, how many of these sites are open to SQL injection attacks.  I think I cheated my way through my whole senior year, I didn't do it for the GPA, I did it for the degree.</p><p>A lot of the C++/Java coding is done on netbooted Fedora machines, at least while I was there.  Some people knew enough about the Linux command line to be stupid, as they left their home directory open to all for reading.  You could find entire completed projects from people who already completed the class.  I always wondered if I were caught, if the owners of the unsecured home directory could be held liable or not, probably so with the 'use a bomb to put out a fire' mentality.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I graduated from a 4 year university recently , while they specialize more in engineering , they kick out a good number of CS degrees .
I could knock out code all day long ( or all week long in the case of that damned b * -tree ) , but when it came to the upper level theory classes...turns out I 'm more of code monkey than a mathematician.I went through tons of trouble to obtain answer manuals and used Google extensively to find my answers .
Many book publisher websites offer a student and teacher side of their site , the teacher side offering the answer manuals for download .
You 'd be surprised , or maybe not , how many of these sites are open to SQL injection attacks .
I think I cheated my way through my whole senior year , I did n't do it for the GPA , I did it for the degree.A lot of the C + + /Java coding is done on netbooted Fedora machines , at least while I was there .
Some people knew enough about the Linux command line to be stupid , as they left their home directory open to all for reading .
You could find entire completed projects from people who already completed the class .
I always wondered if I were caught , if the owners of the unsecured home directory could be held liable or not , probably so with the 'use a bomb to put out a fire ' mentality .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I graduated from a 4 year university recently, while they specialize more in engineering, they kick out a good number of CS degrees.
I could knock out code all day long (or all week long in the case of that damned b*-tree), but when it came to the upper level theory classes...turns out I'm more of code monkey than a mathematician.I went through tons of trouble to obtain answer manuals and used Google extensively to find my answers.
Many book publisher websites offer a student and teacher side of their site, the teacher side offering the answer manuals for download.
You'd be surprised, or maybe not, how many of these sites are open to SQL injection attacks.
I think I cheated my way through my whole senior year, I didn't do it for the GPA, I did it for the degree.A lot of the C++/Java coding is done on netbooted Fedora machines, at least while I was there.
Some people knew enough about the Linux command line to be stupid, as they left their home directory open to all for reading.
You could find entire completed projects from people who already completed the class.
I always wondered if I were caught, if the owners of the unsecured home directory could be held liable or not, probably so with the 'use a bomb to put out a fire' mentality.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112502</id>
	<title>Cheating In Upper Level Engineering Courses</title>
	<author>BuildMonkey</author>
	<datestamp>1265988060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>In many of the engineering courses I took, there was a choice to get a sold A or to learn the material. Those wanting the best grade got the old tests from student organizations or friends. It's difficult to compete with students who already have the full test. Granted, they don't learn much from the course but they end up with the better GPA. Now, this could have been helped had the professors not been so lazy as to recycle material and/or if the professors had given out all their old material at the beginning of class, which some did. <br> <br>

There were whole areas of EE in which I didn't even take classes because the professor who taught them gave the exact same test every semester <em> and only graded the answer in the box</em>. This is for both undergrad and graduate courses.</htmltext>
<tokenext>In many of the engineering courses I took , there was a choice to get a sold A or to learn the material .
Those wanting the best grade got the old tests from student organizations or friends .
It 's difficult to compete with students who already have the full test .
Granted , they do n't learn much from the course but they end up with the better GPA .
Now , this could have been helped had the professors not been so lazy as to recycle material and/or if the professors had given out all their old material at the beginning of class , which some did .
There were whole areas of EE in which I did n't even take classes because the professor who taught them gave the exact same test every semester and only graded the answer in the box .
This is for both undergrad and graduate courses .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In many of the engineering courses I took, there was a choice to get a sold A or to learn the material.
Those wanting the best grade got the old tests from student organizations or friends.
It's difficult to compete with students who already have the full test.
Granted, they don't learn much from the course but they end up with the better GPA.
Now, this could have been helped had the professors not been so lazy as to recycle material and/or if the professors had given out all their old material at the beginning of class, which some did.
There were whole areas of EE in which I didn't even take classes because the professor who taught them gave the exact same test every semester  and only graded the answer in the box.
This is for both undergrad and graduate courses.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112094</id>
	<title>A ramble from the TAs view</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265985660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>I used to head TF CS classes at an Ivy League school (you can probably guess which one from my job title alone). I worked both in session with undergraduates, and in the summer for the high-school/further learning program.
<p>
Cheating in CS is terribly easy to detect. We had programs we could use to pick up anything suspect, but I never actually used them - at the entry-level I was teaching at, it was pretty easy to catch someone out. In fact, often you can complete the assignment in the time it would take you to modify your stolen/plagiarized code so as to be undetectable. Half the time you just need to google the code they submitted before you find a forum/Yahoo Answers post from the student in question, and once you've been coding a student for a while you get a good feel for what exactly is and isn't their style and their code.
</p><p>
As to preventing it: there was a very simple policy at my university. You cheat, you fail. In most cases, it was rarely followed. We tended to be far more strict at the Summer School sessions, but then again, we also tended to get considerably more problems, mainly because the high school students and foreign exchange students attending didn't know better. The university also didn't really have a problem showing them the door.
</p><p>
Undergraduates were more of an issue. A lot of the time, we would let them know we'd discovered it, and let it slide. Repeat offenders were usually dealt with by using some kind of grade penalty. Very rarely did students get referred for academic discipline (although this is partly due to the entry-level nature of the courses I taught. Something high-level, or with a substantial amount of original research required, would be another story).
</p><p>
Finally, and perhaps most importantly - why were these students cheating? Well, honestly, I suspect because of the academic pressures placed upon them. I'd be extremely interested to compare the rates of detected cheating at somewhere like MIT, where grades are rounded up/down for GPA (ie, get a B+ and it's recorded as a B in your GPA, get an A- and it becomes an A) and at my university. Given the vast number of emails I used to get at the end of each semester from students desperate for a grade boost to help their GPA, I can see how some might have convinced themselves it was 'ok' to cheat. And maybe....just maybe...people are cheating because they're not getting the support they need. The article says the guy was taking the class for the second time. Sounds like maybe he wasn't getting the one-on-one help and extra support teaching staff should be giving him. Just a thought.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I used to head TF CS classes at an Ivy League school ( you can probably guess which one from my job title alone ) .
I worked both in session with undergraduates , and in the summer for the high-school/further learning program .
Cheating in CS is terribly easy to detect .
We had programs we could use to pick up anything suspect , but I never actually used them - at the entry-level I was teaching at , it was pretty easy to catch someone out .
In fact , often you can complete the assignment in the time it would take you to modify your stolen/plagiarized code so as to be undetectable .
Half the time you just need to google the code they submitted before you find a forum/Yahoo Answers post from the student in question , and once you 've been coding a student for a while you get a good feel for what exactly is and is n't their style and their code .
As to preventing it : there was a very simple policy at my university .
You cheat , you fail .
In most cases , it was rarely followed .
We tended to be far more strict at the Summer School sessions , but then again , we also tended to get considerably more problems , mainly because the high school students and foreign exchange students attending did n't know better .
The university also did n't really have a problem showing them the door .
Undergraduates were more of an issue .
A lot of the time , we would let them know we 'd discovered it , and let it slide .
Repeat offenders were usually dealt with by using some kind of grade penalty .
Very rarely did students get referred for academic discipline ( although this is partly due to the entry-level nature of the courses I taught .
Something high-level , or with a substantial amount of original research required , would be another story ) .
Finally , and perhaps most importantly - why were these students cheating ?
Well , honestly , I suspect because of the academic pressures placed upon them .
I 'd be extremely interested to compare the rates of detected cheating at somewhere like MIT , where grades are rounded up/down for GPA ( ie , get a B + and it 's recorded as a B in your GPA , get an A- and it becomes an A ) and at my university .
Given the vast number of emails I used to get at the end of each semester from students desperate for a grade boost to help their GPA , I can see how some might have convinced themselves it was 'ok ' to cheat .
And maybe....just maybe...people are cheating because they 're not getting the support they need .
The article says the guy was taking the class for the second time .
Sounds like maybe he was n't getting the one-on-one help and extra support teaching staff should be giving him .
Just a thought .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I used to head TF CS classes at an Ivy League school (you can probably guess which one from my job title alone).
I worked both in session with undergraduates, and in the summer for the high-school/further learning program.
Cheating in CS is terribly easy to detect.
We had programs we could use to pick up anything suspect, but I never actually used them - at the entry-level I was teaching at, it was pretty easy to catch someone out.
In fact, often you can complete the assignment in the time it would take you to modify your stolen/plagiarized code so as to be undetectable.
Half the time you just need to google the code they submitted before you find a forum/Yahoo Answers post from the student in question, and once you've been coding a student for a while you get a good feel for what exactly is and isn't their style and their code.
As to preventing it: there was a very simple policy at my university.
You cheat, you fail.
In most cases, it was rarely followed.
We tended to be far more strict at the Summer School sessions, but then again, we also tended to get considerably more problems, mainly because the high school students and foreign exchange students attending didn't know better.
The university also didn't really have a problem showing them the door.
Undergraduates were more of an issue.
A lot of the time, we would let them know we'd discovered it, and let it slide.
Repeat offenders were usually dealt with by using some kind of grade penalty.
Very rarely did students get referred for academic discipline (although this is partly due to the entry-level nature of the courses I taught.
Something high-level, or with a substantial amount of original research required, would be another story).
Finally, and perhaps most importantly - why were these students cheating?
Well, honestly, I suspect because of the academic pressures placed upon them.
I'd be extremely interested to compare the rates of detected cheating at somewhere like MIT, where grades are rounded up/down for GPA (ie, get a B+ and it's recorded as a B in your GPA, get an A- and it becomes an A) and at my university.
Given the vast number of emails I used to get at the end of each semester from students desperate for a grade boost to help their GPA, I can see how some might have convinced themselves it was 'ok' to cheat.
And maybe....just maybe...people are cheating because they're not getting the support they need.
The article says the guy was taking the class for the second time.
Sounds like maybe he wasn't getting the one-on-one help and extra support teaching staff should be giving him.
Just a thought.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112196</id>
	<title>Re:Expelled</title>
	<author>TwiztidK</author>
	<datestamp>1265986260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Just make the punishment for cheating sufficiently harsh.  You cheat.. you get kicked out. Simple.</p></div><p>Most universities kick students out as soon as they are caught cheating. If the cheaters try to go to apply to another school, the last question on the app is usually "Have you ever been disciplined for Academic Dishonesty?", to which answering "yes" is an auto-fail.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Just make the punishment for cheating sufficiently harsh .
You cheat.. you get kicked out .
Simple.Most universities kick students out as soon as they are caught cheating .
If the cheaters try to go to apply to another school , the last question on the app is usually " Have you ever been disciplined for Academic Dishonesty ?
" , to which answering " yes " is an auto-fail .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just make the punishment for cheating sufficiently harsh.
You cheat.. you get kicked out.
Simple.Most universities kick students out as soon as they are caught cheating.
If the cheaters try to go to apply to another school, the last question on the app is usually "Have you ever been disciplined for Academic Dishonesty?
", to which answering "yes" is an auto-fail.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115166</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>TreyGeek</author>
	<datestamp>1265998740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>What's worse is when student #2 makes no modifications to student #1's work.... including changing the name at the top of the code.  Student #2 hand wrote their name at the top of the printout though.</htmltext>
<tokenext>What 's worse is when student # 2 makes no modifications to student # 1 's work.... including changing the name at the top of the code .
Student # 2 hand wrote their name at the top of the printout though .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What's worse is when student #2 makes no modifications to student #1's work.... including changing the name at the top of the code.
Student #2 hand wrote their name at the top of the printout though.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112868</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117642</id>
	<title>Cheating isn't always subtle</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265965560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The least subtle example ever given to me was the student who produced a program late, but fully functional. The executable  ran well. I was suspicious since this student had  never done a tap of work. Maybe an older friend had written it?</p><p>Of course having source code in Java when the course was on C was a bit of a give-a-way</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The least subtle example ever given to me was the student who produced a program late , but fully functional .
The executable ran well .
I was suspicious since this student had never done a tap of work .
Maybe an older friend had written it ? Of course having source code in Java when the course was on C was a bit of a give-a-way</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The least subtle example ever given to me was the student who produced a program late, but fully functional.
The executable  ran well.
I was suspicious since this student had  never done a tap of work.
Maybe an older friend had written it?Of course having source code in Java when the course was on C was a bit of a give-a-way</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113900</id>
	<title>CS centric</title>
	<author>WaXHeLL</author>
	<datestamp>1265994000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is funny -- as its called "cheating" in the CS world, but in the EE world it's "working in a study group."</p><p>Of course, having impossibly hard EE homework at my university probably didn't help.  It was not uncommon (and actually, quite frequent) that I encounter midterms/finals with average grades of 40\% or less.</p><p>But that being said, most of the people who didn't learn the material didn't stay in the EE field after graduation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is funny -- as its called " cheating " in the CS world , but in the EE world it 's " working in a study group .
" Of course , having impossibly hard EE homework at my university probably did n't help .
It was not uncommon ( and actually , quite frequent ) that I encounter midterms/finals with average grades of 40 \ % or less.But that being said , most of the people who did n't learn the material did n't stay in the EE field after graduation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is funny -- as its called "cheating" in the CS world, but in the EE world it's "working in a study group.
"Of course, having impossibly hard EE homework at my university probably didn't help.
It was not uncommon (and actually, quite frequent) that I encounter midterms/finals with average grades of 40\% or less.But that being said, most of the people who didn't learn the material didn't stay in the EE field after graduation.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114566</id>
	<title>Well, Mr. TA</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265996520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sure, go to Yahoo Answers. I answer questions there. Can I get credit for it?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sure , go to Yahoo Answers .
I answer questions there .
Can I get credit for it ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sure, go to Yahoo Answers.
I answer questions there.
Can I get credit for it?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112094</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112526</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>ZeldorBlat</author>
	<datestamp>1265988180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was lucky enough to take a class in college where the prof understood and embraced this idea.  After all, he was teaching us to be engineers rather than coders.  On the first day of class he told us in no uncertain terms that, if we found some code that would be useful in our projects, we were free to use it as-is provided we clearly noted where it came from.</p><p>He even told us a story where, in a previous year, he (inadvertantly) gave out an assignment that was almost identical to an assignment given at another university.  Many students took posted solutions from that other class, cited the source, and turned it in.  Given the prof's policy, he had no choice but to accept the programs as valid and correct.  As he was quick to point out, it puts a much larger burden on him to come up with more creative assignments -- which isn't a bad thing.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was lucky enough to take a class in college where the prof understood and embraced this idea .
After all , he was teaching us to be engineers rather than coders .
On the first day of class he told us in no uncertain terms that , if we found some code that would be useful in our projects , we were free to use it as-is provided we clearly noted where it came from.He even told us a story where , in a previous year , he ( inadvertantly ) gave out an assignment that was almost identical to an assignment given at another university .
Many students took posted solutions from that other class , cited the source , and turned it in .
Given the prof 's policy , he had no choice but to accept the programs as valid and correct .
As he was quick to point out , it puts a much larger burden on him to come up with more creative assignments -- which is n't a bad thing .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was lucky enough to take a class in college where the prof understood and embraced this idea.
After all, he was teaching us to be engineers rather than coders.
On the first day of class he told us in no uncertain terms that, if we found some code that would be useful in our projects, we were free to use it as-is provided we clearly noted where it came from.He even told us a story where, in a previous year, he (inadvertantly) gave out an assignment that was almost identical to an assignment given at another university.
Many students took posted solutions from that other class, cited the source, and turned it in.
Given the prof's policy, he had no choice but to accept the programs as valid and correct.
As he was quick to point out, it puts a much larger burden on him to come up with more creative assignments -- which isn't a bad thing.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111998</id>
	<title>When stealing code...</title>
	<author>shoppa</author>
	<datestamp>1265985120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When stealing code, you should at least be able to discern whether it's good code or not. Seriously.</p><p>Most undergrad-type computing courses tend to have homework or test questions that have one really super obvious working answer. "Obvious" at least after you know it! There often really is a single best way to do something. Obviously local variables and order of initialization don't always matter.</p><p>But there are lots of suboptimal approaches and some really wrong ways to do things too. You have to give them some credit for trying. But if half the class tries to do a suboptimal approach and they all used the same local variable names and forgot to initialize the same thing that should've been initialized, it really is painfully obvious to the graders.</p><p>Stealing good code or at least learning from good code should be encouraged. But stealing bad code, or even worse code that doesn't actually work, really is a crime. Not just from the academic-honor system standpoint but from the "Crimes against nature" standpoint.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When stealing code , you should at least be able to discern whether it 's good code or not .
Seriously.Most undergrad-type computing courses tend to have homework or test questions that have one really super obvious working answer .
" Obvious " at least after you know it !
There often really is a single best way to do something .
Obviously local variables and order of initialization do n't always matter.But there are lots of suboptimal approaches and some really wrong ways to do things too .
You have to give them some credit for trying .
But if half the class tries to do a suboptimal approach and they all used the same local variable names and forgot to initialize the same thing that should 've been initialized , it really is painfully obvious to the graders.Stealing good code or at least learning from good code should be encouraged .
But stealing bad code , or even worse code that does n't actually work , really is a crime .
Not just from the academic-honor system standpoint but from the " Crimes against nature " standpoint .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When stealing code, you should at least be able to discern whether it's good code or not.
Seriously.Most undergrad-type computing courses tend to have homework or test questions that have one really super obvious working answer.
"Obvious" at least after you know it!
There often really is a single best way to do something.
Obviously local variables and order of initialization don't always matter.But there are lots of suboptimal approaches and some really wrong ways to do things too.
You have to give them some credit for trying.
But if half the class tries to do a suboptimal approach and they all used the same local variable names and forgot to initialize the same thing that should've been initialized, it really is painfully obvious to the graders.Stealing good code or at least learning from good code should be encouraged.
But stealing bad code, or even worse code that doesn't actually work, really is a crime.
Not just from the academic-honor system standpoint but from the "Crimes against nature" standpoint.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112110</id>
	<title>CS</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265985720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Man, I thought this article was about Counter Strike...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Man , I thought this article was about Counter Strike.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Man, I thought this article was about Counter Strike...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111984</id>
	<title>Does the school have tutors?</title>
	<author>SirLurksAlot</author>
	<datestamp>1265985060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If the school has any number of gullible/inexperienced Comp. Sci. tutors then it may be very easy.  I tutored Comp. Sci. for a while and there was no lack of students who thought they could get me to do their homework for them.  It always started off with "I have this assignment and I'm confused about this part of it.... can you help me?"  Of course most of them understood when I only gave generalized answers that didn't have anything to do with the assignment, but there were always a few that thought I was simply being unhelpful.  I know some Comp. Sci. tutors though that simply went along with the students and practically did their assignments for them, but it didn't really bother me because I knew the cheaters would either get caught in school or (worse) it would come out in their work if they ever got hired somewhere.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If the school has any number of gullible/inexperienced Comp .
Sci. tutors then it may be very easy .
I tutored Comp .
Sci. for a while and there was no lack of students who thought they could get me to do their homework for them .
It always started off with " I have this assignment and I 'm confused about this part of it.... can you help me ?
" Of course most of them understood when I only gave generalized answers that did n't have anything to do with the assignment , but there were always a few that thought I was simply being unhelpful .
I know some Comp .
Sci. tutors though that simply went along with the students and practically did their assignments for them , but it did n't really bother me because I knew the cheaters would either get caught in school or ( worse ) it would come out in their work if they ever got hired somewhere .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the school has any number of gullible/inexperienced Comp.
Sci. tutors then it may be very easy.
I tutored Comp.
Sci. for a while and there was no lack of students who thought they could get me to do their homework for them.
It always started off with "I have this assignment and I'm confused about this part of it.... can you help me?
"  Of course most of them understood when I only gave generalized answers that didn't have anything to do with the assignment, but there were always a few that thought I was simply being unhelpful.
I know some Comp.
Sci. tutors though that simply went along with the students and practically did their assignments for them, but it didn't really bother me because I knew the cheaters would either get caught in school or (worse) it would come out in their work if they ever got hired somewhere.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31126010</id>
	<title>Re:Expelled</title>
	<author>eyore15</author>
	<datestamp>1266065640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Be glad you don't attend one of the service academies; their honor code states they will not cheat NOR TOLERATE THOSE WHO DO.  Knowing another student cheated, and doing nothing about it, is tantamount to cheating yourself.  Personal integrity is more than just NOT cheating.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Be glad you do n't attend one of the service academies ; their honor code states they will not cheat NOR TOLERATE THOSE WHO DO .
Knowing another student cheated , and doing nothing about it , is tantamount to cheating yourself .
Personal integrity is more than just NOT cheating .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Be glad you don't attend one of the service academies; their honor code states they will not cheat NOR TOLERATE THOSE WHO DO.
Knowing another student cheated, and doing nothing about it, is tantamount to cheating yourself.
Personal integrity is more than just NOT cheating.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114166</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>dintech</author>
	<datestamp>1265995020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We had two different tutors and the paper was hand written. I was trying to imply that one guy just marked it more harshly rather than two guys getting to gether and solving the riddle. You could be right though.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We had two different tutors and the paper was hand written .
I was trying to imply that one guy just marked it more harshly rather than two guys getting to gether and solving the riddle .
You could be right though .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We had two different tutors and the paper was hand written.
I was trying to imply that one guy just marked it more harshly rather than two guys getting to gether and solving the riddle.
You could be right though.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113304</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112398</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>wisnoskij</author>
	<datestamp>1265987340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Well I am sure some people cheat not because they cannot do the work but because they would rather get 90-100\% instead of 70-80\%.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Well I am sure some people cheat not because they can not do the work but because they would rather get 90-100 \ % instead of 70-80 \ % .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well I am sure some people cheat not because they cannot do the work but because they would rather get 90-100\% instead of 70-80\%.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112012</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114498</id>
	<title>Re:Very easy, and very easy to get caught</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265996220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It was actually developed at UC Berkeley by the professor who took it with him when he moved to Stanford.  I was a TA for him at Berkeley when we used early versions of it.</p><p>Even then, the output was pretty incredible, giving essentially a sorted list of all pairs of solutions weighted by the amount of similiarity they had.  So for a 200 student lower-division lecture, you could run through all 200-choose-2 combinations. Or better yet, feed it retained submissions from previous years and get 600-choose-2 comparisons done to catch people turning in last year's work on an evolving term project definition.</p><p>You didn't bother with projects that had a small percentage of similar code fragments here or there, but just worked your way down the list starting with the most flagrantly common ones. For each comparison you could see a side-by-side comparison of the matching code regions, so a human decided whether it was really copying or just a bit of idiomatic control structure one would expect.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It was actually developed at UC Berkeley by the professor who took it with him when he moved to Stanford .
I was a TA for him at Berkeley when we used early versions of it.Even then , the output was pretty incredible , giving essentially a sorted list of all pairs of solutions weighted by the amount of similiarity they had .
So for a 200 student lower-division lecture , you could run through all 200-choose-2 combinations .
Or better yet , feed it retained submissions from previous years and get 600-choose-2 comparisons done to catch people turning in last year 's work on an evolving term project definition.You did n't bother with projects that had a small percentage of similar code fragments here or there , but just worked your way down the list starting with the most flagrantly common ones .
For each comparison you could see a side-by-side comparison of the matching code regions , so a human decided whether it was really copying or just a bit of idiomatic control structure one would expect .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It was actually developed at UC Berkeley by the professor who took it with him when he moved to Stanford.
I was a TA for him at Berkeley when we used early versions of it.Even then, the output was pretty incredible, giving essentially a sorted list of all pairs of solutions weighted by the amount of similiarity they had.
So for a 200 student lower-division lecture, you could run through all 200-choose-2 combinations.
Or better yet, feed it retained submissions from previous years and get 600-choose-2 comparisons done to catch people turning in last year's work on an evolving term project definition.You didn't bother with projects that had a small percentage of similar code fragments here or there, but just worked your way down the list starting with the most flagrantly common ones.
For each comparison you could see a side-by-side comparison of the matching code regions, so a human decided whether it was really copying or just a bit of idiomatic control structure one would expect.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113442</id>
	<title>Re:Expelled</title>
	<author>pz</author>
	<datestamp>1265992260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Just make the punishment for cheating sufficiently harsh.  You cheat.. you get kicked out. Simple.</p><p>I dunno about Stanford but when I went to school my CS classes (especially the earlier ones) were huge.  I never met most of my classmates.  I would be *extremely* pissed off to have my academic standing affected by someone else's cheating.</p></div><p>The summary omits the fact that raising the weight of the final is not the ONLY action that happens.  The student who is caught is at least reprimanded, if not much worse.  The point of the novel mechanism is that everyone else in the class (even if the single individual is expelled) is also punished by re-weighting the grade evaluation to more heavily favor the final exam.  Furthermore, that at each instance of cheating, there is another adjustment.  Presumably peer pressure or some fear of potential guilt is supposed to act as a deterrent, but I don't see that.  It's not an effective motivation for someone who is likely to cheat.</p><p>When I was at MIT, teaching the core EECS classes (6.001 through 6.004) late 80s and early 90s, cheating was taken *very* seriously.  The very best a student could hope for is to fail the class (I never heard of such a case, though).  Nominally it meant leaving the department (with a forced change of majors), if not expulsion from the university.  That said, since the punishment was so harsh, and since cheating is difficult to prove in general, students whom we suspected of cheating were usually given a stern warning and put on informal probation.  Still, there were disciplinary committee meetings from time to time to deal with students who were provably shown to have cheated.  The chair of the committee for many years was a family friend --- and, boy, he was tough.  You did not want to be even accused of cheating.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Just make the punishment for cheating sufficiently harsh .
You cheat.. you get kicked out .
Simple.I dunno about Stanford but when I went to school my CS classes ( especially the earlier ones ) were huge .
I never met most of my classmates .
I would be * extremely * pissed off to have my academic standing affected by someone else 's cheating.The summary omits the fact that raising the weight of the final is not the ONLY action that happens .
The student who is caught is at least reprimanded , if not much worse .
The point of the novel mechanism is that everyone else in the class ( even if the single individual is expelled ) is also punished by re-weighting the grade evaluation to more heavily favor the final exam .
Furthermore , that at each instance of cheating , there is another adjustment .
Presumably peer pressure or some fear of potential guilt is supposed to act as a deterrent , but I do n't see that .
It 's not an effective motivation for someone who is likely to cheat.When I was at MIT , teaching the core EECS classes ( 6.001 through 6.004 ) late 80s and early 90s , cheating was taken * very * seriously .
The very best a student could hope for is to fail the class ( I never heard of such a case , though ) .
Nominally it meant leaving the department ( with a forced change of majors ) , if not expulsion from the university .
That said , since the punishment was so harsh , and since cheating is difficult to prove in general , students whom we suspected of cheating were usually given a stern warning and put on informal probation .
Still , there were disciplinary committee meetings from time to time to deal with students who were provably shown to have cheated .
The chair of the committee for many years was a family friend --- and , boy , he was tough .
You did not want to be even accused of cheating .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just make the punishment for cheating sufficiently harsh.
You cheat.. you get kicked out.
Simple.I dunno about Stanford but when I went to school my CS classes (especially the earlier ones) were huge.
I never met most of my classmates.
I would be *extremely* pissed off to have my academic standing affected by someone else's cheating.The summary omits the fact that raising the weight of the final is not the ONLY action that happens.
The student who is caught is at least reprimanded, if not much worse.
The point of the novel mechanism is that everyone else in the class (even if the single individual is expelled) is also punished by re-weighting the grade evaluation to more heavily favor the final exam.
Furthermore, that at each instance of cheating, there is another adjustment.
Presumably peer pressure or some fear of potential guilt is supposed to act as a deterrent, but I don't see that.
It's not an effective motivation for someone who is likely to cheat.When I was at MIT, teaching the core EECS classes (6.001 through 6.004) late 80s and early 90s, cheating was taken *very* seriously.
The very best a student could hope for is to fail the class (I never heard of such a case, though).
Nominally it meant leaving the department (with a forced change of majors), if not expulsion from the university.
That said, since the punishment was so harsh, and since cheating is difficult to prove in general, students whom we suspected of cheating were usually given a stern warning and put on informal probation.
Still, there were disciplinary committee meetings from time to time to deal with students who were provably shown to have cheated.
The chair of the committee for many years was a family friend --- and, boy, he was tough.
You did not want to be even accused of cheating.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112994</id>
	<title>What's with the leniency?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265990160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At the University of Maryland, penalty for cheating was supposedly being expelled from the college (the College of Math and Physical Sciences).  You would also fail that class.</p><p>Personally, I never even worked on any homework with anyone until my senior year, and by that time they actually didn't care.  But I know of many people who would go to the labs and work on their projects together, which always made me mad because I always did everything on my own (and I liked it that way).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At the University of Maryland , penalty for cheating was supposedly being expelled from the college ( the College of Math and Physical Sciences ) .
You would also fail that class.Personally , I never even worked on any homework with anyone until my senior year , and by that time they actually did n't care .
But I know of many people who would go to the labs and work on their projects together , which always made me mad because I always did everything on my own ( and I liked it that way ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At the University of Maryland, penalty for cheating was supposedly being expelled from the college (the College of Math and Physical Sciences).
You would also fail that class.Personally, I never even worked on any homework with anyone until my senior year, and by that time they actually didn't care.
But I know of many people who would go to the labs and work on their projects together, which always made me mad because I always did everything on my own (and I liked it that way).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115790</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266001140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You'd be shocked how many ways you can write a quicksort.</p><p>Even if the students change all the variable names and run it through a pretty-printer, the copying usually sticks out like a sore thumb.  There are invariably small mistakes in most worthy assignments, and they stick out.</p><p>Most of the times I found it, it was groups of people working together.  But not always -- in at least one instance, some students had found another student's work in a lab trash can and had typed it in and gotten it to work.</p><p>Oddly, perhaps, it was the students who took classes through work that were usually the worst/most prolific cheaters.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 'd be shocked how many ways you can write a quicksort.Even if the students change all the variable names and run it through a pretty-printer , the copying usually sticks out like a sore thumb .
There are invariably small mistakes in most worthy assignments , and they stick out.Most of the times I found it , it was groups of people working together .
But not always -- in at least one instance , some students had found another student 's work in a lab trash can and had typed it in and gotten it to work.Oddly , perhaps , it was the students who took classes through work that were usually the worst/most prolific cheaters .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You'd be shocked how many ways you can write a quicksort.Even if the students change all the variable names and run it through a pretty-printer, the copying usually sticks out like a sore thumb.
There are invariably small mistakes in most worthy assignments, and they stick out.Most of the times I found it, it was groups of people working together.
But not always -- in at least one instance, some students had found another student's work in a lab trash can and had typed it in and gotten it to work.Oddly, perhaps, it was the students who took classes through work that were usually the worst/most prolific cheaters.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112868</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114506</id>
	<title>Re:No outside help ?</title>
	<author>clone53421</author>
	<datestamp>1265996280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And are you willing to answer your cell at 2 AM on the morning a big project is due?</p><p>I didn&rsquo;t think so.</p><p>I&rsquo;ve had one prof. who would. He was, quite probably, the best prof. I ever had.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And are you willing to answer your cell at 2 AM on the morning a big project is due ? I didn    t think so.I    ve had one prof. who would .
He was , quite probably , the best prof. I ever had .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And are you willing to answer your cell at 2 AM on the morning a big project is due?I didn’t think so.I’ve had one prof. who would.
He was, quite probably, the best prof. I ever had.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112826</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111878</id>
	<title>CSIt's easy...</title>
	<author>Nomaxxx</author>
	<datestamp>1265984220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>yep... easy to cheat in Counter Strike.</htmltext>
<tokenext>yep... easy to cheat in Counter Strike .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>yep... easy to cheat in Counter Strike.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31124410</id>
	<title>Re:The way I see it...</title>
	<author>masmullin</author>
	<datestamp>1265996940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Interesting, I should have thought of that...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Interesting , I should have thought of that.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Interesting, I should have thought of that...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113536</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114368</id>
	<title>Re:So funny..</title>
	<author>quanticle</author>
	<datestamp>1265995800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Furthermore, if you were the "cheatee" and there was reason to suspect you willingly provided the cheater with your code to copy, you would both be subject to expulsion. Ouch.</p></div><p>I like the fact that you put in the word "willingly" there.  At my university there was a kid who accidentally left his laptop unlocked and had his code stolen.  He came very close to being expelled, and had to appeal his case up through two layers of the administration before he could find someone who saw sense.</p><p>The really terrible thing was that the other person admitted that he had taken the code without authorization.  Even so, the professor insisted that the kid "should not have left his code in a position where it could be stolen."</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Furthermore , if you were the " cheatee " and there was reason to suspect you willingly provided the cheater with your code to copy , you would both be subject to expulsion .
Ouch.I like the fact that you put in the word " willingly " there .
At my university there was a kid who accidentally left his laptop unlocked and had his code stolen .
He came very close to being expelled , and had to appeal his case up through two layers of the administration before he could find someone who saw sense.The really terrible thing was that the other person admitted that he had taken the code without authorization .
Even so , the professor insisted that the kid " should not have left his code in a position where it could be stolen .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Furthermore, if you were the "cheatee" and there was reason to suspect you willingly provided the cheater with your code to copy, you would both be subject to expulsion.
Ouch.I like the fact that you put in the word "willingly" there.
At my university there was a kid who accidentally left his laptop unlocked and had his code stolen.
He came very close to being expelled, and had to appeal his case up through two layers of the administration before he could find someone who saw sense.The really terrible thing was that the other person admitted that he had taken the code without authorization.
Even so, the professor insisted that the kid "should not have left his code in a position where it could be stolen.
"
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112022</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112328</id>
	<title>Punish-the-group theory... not so good</title>
	<author>adosch</author>
	<datestamp>1265986980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>FTFA, I understand the argument of, "Your friends want to cheat, great.  Good luck on my uber-weighted final worth, now, 102\% of your final grade", and I am personally not a fan of it.  I've seen that type of methodology applied at the 101-level and gen-ed classes but I just don't like it at any level as it applies to college.  IMHO, I paid for my schooling with the G.I. bill and the rest of it in loans and of course it would piss me off when I'm putting in hard, valid work in a class and not cheating to be punished for what others are doing.  If people cheat and don't take the class seriously, the Mr/Mrs Professor should deal with that student accordingly and make sure it qualifies for an automatic failure of the class.  I had professors in college that has a very low threshold for that type of behavior and the student would learn (or mom and dad fronting the college bill every semester would learn) that taking classes over and over will only make you either a 7 year senior or a drop out.  Furthermore, I don't like how the professor gives up his authority and puts a layer of discipline on the students by punishing them.  Is he looking for a militaristic approach?  Does he think all the kids in the dorm are going to gang up on "the cheater" and give him/her a blanket party?  Absolutely not.</p><p>However, when I started working in the real world in the Information Technology field, I never knew that this "group-punish" methodology would apply at most of the jobs I've been at with substantial perks (e.g. Work-from-home a good portion of the week, very flexible and accommodating work schedules with the option to make up time whenever).</p><p>To me, it just reminds me of being treated as less as an adult and more like a 2nd grader having to lay their head down on their desk for someone talking in the back of the classroom during teacher instruction time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>FTFA , I understand the argument of , " Your friends want to cheat , great .
Good luck on my uber-weighted final worth , now , 102 \ % of your final grade " , and I am personally not a fan of it .
I 've seen that type of methodology applied at the 101-level and gen-ed classes but I just do n't like it at any level as it applies to college .
IMHO , I paid for my schooling with the G.I .
bill and the rest of it in loans and of course it would piss me off when I 'm putting in hard , valid work in a class and not cheating to be punished for what others are doing .
If people cheat and do n't take the class seriously , the Mr/Mrs Professor should deal with that student accordingly and make sure it qualifies for an automatic failure of the class .
I had professors in college that has a very low threshold for that type of behavior and the student would learn ( or mom and dad fronting the college bill every semester would learn ) that taking classes over and over will only make you either a 7 year senior or a drop out .
Furthermore , I do n't like how the professor gives up his authority and puts a layer of discipline on the students by punishing them .
Is he looking for a militaristic approach ?
Does he think all the kids in the dorm are going to gang up on " the cheater " and give him/her a blanket party ?
Absolutely not.However , when I started working in the real world in the Information Technology field , I never knew that this " group-punish " methodology would apply at most of the jobs I 've been at with substantial perks ( e.g .
Work-from-home a good portion of the week , very flexible and accommodating work schedules with the option to make up time whenever ) .To me , it just reminds me of being treated as less as an adult and more like a 2nd grader having to lay their head down on their desk for someone talking in the back of the classroom during teacher instruction time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>FTFA, I understand the argument of, "Your friends want to cheat, great.
Good luck on my uber-weighted final worth, now, 102\% of your final grade", and I am personally not a fan of it.
I've seen that type of methodology applied at the 101-level and gen-ed classes but I just don't like it at any level as it applies to college.
IMHO, I paid for my schooling with the G.I.
bill and the rest of it in loans and of course it would piss me off when I'm putting in hard, valid work in a class and not cheating to be punished for what others are doing.
If people cheat and don't take the class seriously, the Mr/Mrs Professor should deal with that student accordingly and make sure it qualifies for an automatic failure of the class.
I had professors in college that has a very low threshold for that type of behavior and the student would learn (or mom and dad fronting the college bill every semester would learn) that taking classes over and over will only make you either a 7 year senior or a drop out.
Furthermore, I don't like how the professor gives up his authority and puts a layer of discipline on the students by punishing them.
Is he looking for a militaristic approach?
Does he think all the kids in the dorm are going to gang up on "the cheater" and give him/her a blanket party?
Absolutely not.However, when I started working in the real world in the Information Technology field, I never knew that this "group-punish" methodology would apply at most of the jobs I've been at with substantial perks (e.g.
Work-from-home a good portion of the week, very flexible and accommodating work schedules with the option to make up time whenever).To me, it just reminds me of being treated as less as an adult and more like a 2nd grader having to lay their head down on their desk for someone talking in the back of the classroom during teacher instruction time.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114096</id>
	<title>I "cheat" all the time.</title>
	<author>gestalt\_n\_pepper</author>
	<datestamp>1265994780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I rarely start from scratch. I plan the project, figure out what I'm likely to need and start raiding old code libraries on the net, or on book CDs (Hint. Best "starter" code is usually available from book publishers). By the time, I've gotten all that together, what's left is usually some interface design and what I call "lego" work where I fit it all together.</p><p>For a lot of us, It's not about being the best programmer. It's about being the guy who gets a task accomplished in a reasonable timeframe and cost.</p><p>As for long term maintenance. I comment everything. I clean it up. I start with good ingredients. The company is still using code I created 7 years ago. You?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I rarely start from scratch .
I plan the project , figure out what I 'm likely to need and start raiding old code libraries on the net , or on book CDs ( Hint .
Best " starter " code is usually available from book publishers ) .
By the time , I 've gotten all that together , what 's left is usually some interface design and what I call " lego " work where I fit it all together.For a lot of us , It 's not about being the best programmer .
It 's about being the guy who gets a task accomplished in a reasonable timeframe and cost.As for long term maintenance .
I comment everything .
I clean it up .
I start with good ingredients .
The company is still using code I created 7 years ago .
You ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I rarely start from scratch.
I plan the project, figure out what I'm likely to need and start raiding old code libraries on the net, or on book CDs (Hint.
Best "starter" code is usually available from book publishers).
By the time, I've gotten all that together, what's left is usually some interface design and what I call "lego" work where I fit it all together.For a lot of us, It's not about being the best programmer.
It's about being the guy who gets a task accomplished in a reasonable timeframe and cost.As for long term maintenance.
I comment everything.
I clean it up.
I start with good ingredients.
The company is still using code I created 7 years ago.
You?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112712</id>
	<title>Re:No outside help ?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265988900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Collaboration is fine, but when people routinely post their homework assignments on sites like rentacoder.com, it should be considered cheating and an automatic fail for the course.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Collaboration is fine , but when people routinely post their homework assignments on sites like rentacoder.com , it should be considered cheating and an automatic fail for the course .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Collaboration is fine, but when people routinely post their homework assignments on sites like rentacoder.com, it should be considered cheating and an automatic fail for the course.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112542</id>
	<title>Ever worked on a project with heavy code reuse?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265988300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Have you ever worked on a significant project that reused a lot of code? I don't mean a subsequent version, either. I mean a totally new project, with a totally new set of requirements, but trying to use as much code as possible from existing projects.</p><p>It's not a pleasant experience. Chances are that you'll spend far, far more time working out integration issues and finding obscure bugs than you would have spent writing the code from scratch, and testing it.</p><p>Talk all you want about the reused code having undergone "rigorous QA", but the moment you change even a single character in that code, or even just integrate it as-is with other code, you need to retest your entire system.</p><p>These days, the only people I hear spouting your "reuse Reuse REUSE!" chant are the Indian outsourcing companies who just churn out huge amounts of code, rather than usable software. So of course they want to throw the same crap at you that they just threw at some other poor sucker. It makes them good money.</p><p>But for the rest of us, those of us in America or Europe or Japan, we need to write software that actually works. The method you propose has shown time and time again to lead directly to failure.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Have you ever worked on a significant project that reused a lot of code ?
I do n't mean a subsequent version , either .
I mean a totally new project , with a totally new set of requirements , but trying to use as much code as possible from existing projects.It 's not a pleasant experience .
Chances are that you 'll spend far , far more time working out integration issues and finding obscure bugs than you would have spent writing the code from scratch , and testing it.Talk all you want about the reused code having undergone " rigorous QA " , but the moment you change even a single character in that code , or even just integrate it as-is with other code , you need to retest your entire system.These days , the only people I hear spouting your " reuse Reuse REUSE !
" chant are the Indian outsourcing companies who just churn out huge amounts of code , rather than usable software .
So of course they want to throw the same crap at you that they just threw at some other poor sucker .
It makes them good money.But for the rest of us , those of us in America or Europe or Japan , we need to write software that actually works .
The method you propose has shown time and time again to lead directly to failure .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Have you ever worked on a significant project that reused a lot of code?
I don't mean a subsequent version, either.
I mean a totally new project, with a totally new set of requirements, but trying to use as much code as possible from existing projects.It's not a pleasant experience.
Chances are that you'll spend far, far more time working out integration issues and finding obscure bugs than you would have spent writing the code from scratch, and testing it.Talk all you want about the reused code having undergone "rigorous QA", but the moment you change even a single character in that code, or even just integrate it as-is with other code, you need to retest your entire system.These days, the only people I hear spouting your "reuse Reuse REUSE!
" chant are the Indian outsourcing companies who just churn out huge amounts of code, rather than usable software.
So of course they want to throw the same crap at you that they just threw at some other poor sucker.
It makes them good money.But for the rest of us, those of us in America or Europe or Japan, we need to write software that actually works.
The method you propose has shown time and time again to lead directly to failure.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112168</id>
	<title>It's probably harder now than it was...</title>
	<author>Phil\_at\_EvilNET</author>
	<datestamp>1265986080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...back when I was in college. Part of my CS studies included classes that involved coding for the AS/400, the VAX/VMS and COBOL. I had the good misfortune of being at a school that was rather relaxed in terms of security and almost everyone left their "password" the same as their user ID, which just happened to be the same name used for their personal directories. It didn't take much time to sort thru every possible directory and copy every possible file you could to "learn from example". During the next semester, I managed to finish all the labs for my first course of C programming in 3 weeks, and I got a "B" on the final. Did I cheat? Yeah, I guess you could call it that. Did I learn anything? Sure did. Take security seriously.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...back when I was in college .
Part of my CS studies included classes that involved coding for the AS/400 , the VAX/VMS and COBOL .
I had the good misfortune of being at a school that was rather relaxed in terms of security and almost everyone left their " password " the same as their user ID , which just happened to be the same name used for their personal directories .
It did n't take much time to sort thru every possible directory and copy every possible file you could to " learn from example " .
During the next semester , I managed to finish all the labs for my first course of C programming in 3 weeks , and I got a " B " on the final .
Did I cheat ?
Yeah , I guess you could call it that .
Did I learn anything ?
Sure did .
Take security seriously .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...back when I was in college.
Part of my CS studies included classes that involved coding for the AS/400, the VAX/VMS and COBOL.
I had the good misfortune of being at a school that was rather relaxed in terms of security and almost everyone left their "password" the same as their user ID, which just happened to be the same name used for their personal directories.
It didn't take much time to sort thru every possible directory and copy every possible file you could to "learn from example".
During the next semester, I managed to finish all the labs for my first course of C programming in 3 weeks, and I got a "B" on the final.
Did I cheat?
Yeah, I guess you could call it that.
Did I learn anything?
Sure did.
Take security seriously.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117446</id>
	<title>On cheating and plagiarizing</title>
	<author>martinve</author>
	<datestamp>1266008280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At Tallinn Technical University where I do my postgraduate in CS, the policy on cheating and plagiarizing is quite strict. The minimal punishment is zero for grade and the student has to take the course again next year.  The maximum punishment is expulsion from university.</p><p>A good rule on plagiarizing was written down by one of my professors. Quote: "Using diagrams, source code or text in unchanged or changed but recognizably similar format without citing to the original source is plagiarism. Presenting plagiarized work means automatically grade zero".  When citing the sources, it must me clearly stated, what part originates from original source and what is the contribution of the presenter. External but quoted are considered  not done" or partially done", depending on author's own contribution." Sorry for bad translation, it sounds almost as bad in its original language (Estonian).</p><p>In my opinion, when you cheat at university, the place is definitely not for you.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>At Tallinn Technical University where I do my postgraduate in CS , the policy on cheating and plagiarizing is quite strict .
The minimal punishment is zero for grade and the student has to take the course again next year .
The maximum punishment is expulsion from university.A good rule on plagiarizing was written down by one of my professors .
Quote : " Using diagrams , source code or text in unchanged or changed but recognizably similar format without citing to the original source is plagiarism .
Presenting plagiarized work means automatically grade zero " .
When citing the sources , it must me clearly stated , what part originates from original source and what is the contribution of the presenter .
External but quoted are considered not done " or partially done " , depending on author 's own contribution .
" Sorry for bad translation , it sounds almost as bad in its original language ( Estonian ) .In my opinion , when you cheat at university , the place is definitely not for you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At Tallinn Technical University where I do my postgraduate in CS, the policy on cheating and plagiarizing is quite strict.
The minimal punishment is zero for grade and the student has to take the course again next year.
The maximum punishment is expulsion from university.A good rule on plagiarizing was written down by one of my professors.
Quote: "Using diagrams, source code or text in unchanged or changed but recognizably similar format without citing to the original source is plagiarism.
Presenting plagiarized work means automatically grade zero".
When citing the sources, it must me clearly stated, what part originates from original source and what is the contribution of the presenter.
External but quoted are considered  not done" or partially done", depending on author's own contribution.
" Sorry for bad translation, it sounds almost as bad in its original language (Estonian).In my opinion, when you cheat at university, the place is definitely not for you.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31116288</id>
	<title>I Think the Prof's Scheme has a Hole</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266003000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If each person caught cheating increases the weight of the final by 5\% then he might have a problem. The article says the classes are large, so assume 40 people get caught cheating. The final is now worth 215\% of the final grade.So if you get a 42 out of a 100 on the final you final grade is a 90 for an A. The hard part is arranging to have 40 of your classmates caught cheating.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If each person caught cheating increases the weight of the final by 5 \ % then he might have a problem .
The article says the classes are large , so assume 40 people get caught cheating .
The final is now worth 215 \ % of the final grade.So if you get a 42 out of a 100 on the final you final grade is a 90 for an A. The hard part is arranging to have 40 of your classmates caught cheating .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If each person caught cheating increases the weight of the final by 5\% then he might have a problem.
The article says the classes are large, so assume 40 people get caught cheating.
The final is now worth 215\% of the final grade.So if you get a 42 out of a 100 on the final you final grade is a 90 for an A. The hard part is arranging to have 40 of your classmates caught cheating.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113462</id>
	<title>Re:Expelled</title>
	<author>Snorpus</author>
	<datestamp>1265992320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Just make the punishment for cheating sufficiently harsh.  </p></div><p>My college allows a range of punishments, any of which can be applied to the first offense:
</p><ul>
<li>-re-do the assignment</li>
<li>-failure of the assignment, no make-up allowed.</li>
<li>-failure of the course.</li>
</ul><p>
Repeated offenses result in expulsion.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Just make the punishment for cheating sufficiently harsh .
My college allows a range of punishments , any of which can be applied to the first offense : -re-do the assignment -failure of the assignment , no make-up allowed .
-failure of the course .
Repeated offenses result in expulsion .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just make the punishment for cheating sufficiently harsh.
My college allows a range of punishments, any of which can be applied to the first offense:

-re-do the assignment
-failure of the assignment, no make-up allowed.
-failure of the course.
Repeated offenses result in expulsion.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112178</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265986140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>When you get into a corporate environment, "cheating" is actually preferred. No reason to re-invent the wheel when there is existing code that gets the job done.</p></div>
</blockquote><p>But that's not cheating.  Academic cheating is a breach of ethics: you're told your work must be original but you re-use some else's anyway, without permission from your instructor.</p><p>The professional analogue of academic cheating is copyright and patent infringement: using third-party code without consulting your supervisor, the legal department, and so on.  That is definitely <em>not</em> encouraged in any corporate setting I know of; the threat of an IP lawsuit is so great that it could drive a small or mid-sized company out of business.</p><p>Sharing code between two projects at the same company may or may not be allowed depending on the business use of the respective code bases.  For example, the company may not want the latest fancy libraries from R&amp;D being imported into their internal business apps.  Again, if you went and did that without approval, I doubt your boss would be happy.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>When you get into a corporate environment , " cheating " is actually preferred .
No reason to re-invent the wheel when there is existing code that gets the job done .
But that 's not cheating .
Academic cheating is a breach of ethics : you 're told your work must be original but you re-use some else 's anyway , without permission from your instructor.The professional analogue of academic cheating is copyright and patent infringement : using third-party code without consulting your supervisor , the legal department , and so on .
That is definitely not encouraged in any corporate setting I know of ; the threat of an IP lawsuit is so great that it could drive a small or mid-sized company out of business.Sharing code between two projects at the same company may or may not be allowed depending on the business use of the respective code bases .
For example , the company may not want the latest fancy libraries from R&amp;D being imported into their internal business apps .
Again , if you went and did that without approval , I doubt your boss would be happy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When you get into a corporate environment, "cheating" is actually preferred.
No reason to re-invent the wheel when there is existing code that gets the job done.
But that's not cheating.
Academic cheating is a breach of ethics: you're told your work must be original but you re-use some else's anyway, without permission from your instructor.The professional analogue of academic cheating is copyright and patent infringement: using third-party code without consulting your supervisor, the legal department, and so on.
That is definitely not encouraged in any corporate setting I know of; the threat of an IP lawsuit is so great that it could drive a small or mid-sized company out of business.Sharing code between two projects at the same company may or may not be allowed depending on the business use of the respective code bases.
For example, the company may not want the latest fancy libraries from R&amp;D being imported into their internal business apps.
Again, if you went and did that without approval, I doubt your boss would be happy.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117456</id>
	<title>Re:No outside help ?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266008340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The phrase "get outside help" probably meant don't get others to *do the work* for you.  Asking somebody about the general concepts should be allowed.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The phrase " get outside help " probably meant do n't get others to * do the work * for you .
Asking somebody about the general concepts should be allowed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The phrase "get outside help" probably meant don't get others to *do the work* for you.
Asking somebody about the general concepts should be allowed.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115148</id>
	<title>Sometimes you don't have to cheat to get caught</title>
	<author>AusIV</author>
	<datestamp>1265998620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The professor who teaches operating systems at my university runs people's code through an automated cheating detector. The first operating systems project ends up being around 8 lines of code to complete a stub he provided. In a class of 30 people, there will inevitably be a couple of people who produced similar enough code that they get a zero on the assignment even if they may not even have talked to the person who had similar code. After the first project everyone gets scared and writes the most obscure code they can to avoid being accused of cheating.</p><p>
On another note, I was a teaching assistant for a lab last semester, and caught a few students cheating. Most often I could hold the two assignments up to the light and see that each line lined up exactly. I had a couple of students who would hand in the same assignment in different fonts, but I nailed them for having the exact same typos.
</p><p>
There were some other people I suspect might have been cheating, but they changed variable names and switched around lines if the order didn't matter to the point where I wasn't confident that the similarities weren't just because they were solving the same problems.
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The professor who teaches operating systems at my university runs people 's code through an automated cheating detector .
The first operating systems project ends up being around 8 lines of code to complete a stub he provided .
In a class of 30 people , there will inevitably be a couple of people who produced similar enough code that they get a zero on the assignment even if they may not even have talked to the person who had similar code .
After the first project everyone gets scared and writes the most obscure code they can to avoid being accused of cheating .
On another note , I was a teaching assistant for a lab last semester , and caught a few students cheating .
Most often I could hold the two assignments up to the light and see that each line lined up exactly .
I had a couple of students who would hand in the same assignment in different fonts , but I nailed them for having the exact same typos .
There were some other people I suspect might have been cheating , but they changed variable names and switched around lines if the order did n't matter to the point where I was n't confident that the similarities were n't just because they were solving the same problems .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The professor who teaches operating systems at my university runs people's code through an automated cheating detector.
The first operating systems project ends up being around 8 lines of code to complete a stub he provided.
In a class of 30 people, there will inevitably be a couple of people who produced similar enough code that they get a zero on the assignment even if they may not even have talked to the person who had similar code.
After the first project everyone gets scared and writes the most obscure code they can to avoid being accused of cheating.
On another note, I was a teaching assistant for a lab last semester, and caught a few students cheating.
Most often I could hold the two assignments up to the light and see that each line lined up exactly.
I had a couple of students who would hand in the same assignment in different fonts, but I nailed them for having the exact same typos.
There were some other people I suspect might have been cheating, but they changed variable names and switched around lines if the order didn't matter to the point where I wasn't confident that the similarities weren't just because they were solving the same problems.
</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112230</id>
	<title>Algo</title>
	<author>Broken scope</author>
	<datestamp>1265986380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are only so many ways to write a Las Vegas Algorithm when the teacher counts off for not following the algorithm as stated in pseudo code in the book.</p><p>Then he wants you to structure it a specific way. Then he wants a certain input. Then he wants a certain out put.</p><p>By them time your done, the only part of your program you get to "write" is the gui to display the output.</p><p>Oh and it has to be in the prof's preferred language, java.</p><p>So you end up with alot of remarkably similar programs, especially when the teacher has all these style demands and the same prof teaches students 2 or 3 classes in and everyone starts naming classes and methods the way he does.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are only so many ways to write a Las Vegas Algorithm when the teacher counts off for not following the algorithm as stated in pseudo code in the book.Then he wants you to structure it a specific way .
Then he wants a certain input .
Then he wants a certain out put.By them time your done , the only part of your program you get to " write " is the gui to display the output.Oh and it has to be in the prof 's preferred language , java.So you end up with alot of remarkably similar programs , especially when the teacher has all these style demands and the same prof teaches students 2 or 3 classes in and everyone starts naming classes and methods the way he does .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are only so many ways to write a Las Vegas Algorithm when the teacher counts off for not following the algorithm as stated in pseudo code in the book.Then he wants you to structure it a specific way.
Then he wants a certain input.
Then he wants a certain out put.By them time your done, the only part of your program you get to "write" is the gui to display the output.Oh and it has to be in the prof's preferred language, java.So you end up with alot of remarkably similar programs, especially when the teacher has all these style demands and the same prof teaches students 2 or 3 classes in and everyone starts naming classes and methods the way he does.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113860</id>
	<title>Re:are you marked as a cheater for reusing your co</title>
	<author>WoodsHole</author>
	<datestamp>1265993880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Interesting observation. It is generally accepted that work is not original when it has been previously submitted by anybody, to include the author, for academic credit. While I understand that some code has the potential to be identical, it won't be generally. This becomes much more critical the higher one goes up the academic ladder. A student working toward a Ph.D. who plagiarized would almost certainly be dropped from the program. That&rsquo;s a lot of years down the drain, especially if they are dropped as the result of plagiarizing their dissertation.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Interesting observation .
It is generally accepted that work is not original when it has been previously submitted by anybody , to include the author , for academic credit .
While I understand that some code has the potential to be identical , it wo n't be generally .
This becomes much more critical the higher one goes up the academic ladder .
A student working toward a Ph.D. who plagiarized would almost certainly be dropped from the program .
That    s a lot of years down the drain , especially if they are dropped as the result of plagiarizing their dissertation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Interesting observation.
It is generally accepted that work is not original when it has been previously submitted by anybody, to include the author, for academic credit.
While I understand that some code has the potential to be identical, it won't be generally.
This becomes much more critical the higher one goes up the academic ladder.
A student working toward a Ph.D. who plagiarized would almost certainly be dropped from the program.
That’s a lot of years down the drain, especially if they are dropped as the result of plagiarizing their dissertation.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112188</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112402</id>
	<title>Reuse != Cheating</title>
	<author>curri</author>
	<datestamp>1265987400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem with cheating is NOT reuse, but dishonesty; the right analogy is not to reuse *your company's* code or report, but *somebody else's* report or code, which leads to lawsuits against your company and firing. In many (most?) programming assignments in school, you are given starting code (like this one except for<nobr> <wbr></nobr>....)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem with cheating is NOT reuse , but dishonesty ; the right analogy is not to reuse * your company 's * code or report , but * somebody else 's * report or code , which leads to lawsuits against your company and firing .
In many ( most ?
) programming assignments in school , you are given starting code ( like this one except for .... )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem with cheating is NOT reuse, but dishonesty; the right analogy is not to reuse *your company's* code or report, but *somebody else's* report or code, which leads to lawsuits against your company and firing.
In many (most?
) programming assignments in school, you are given starting code (like this one except for ....)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31118028</id>
	<title>Re:Cheating is laziness...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265966760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>You be one dem forn'rs from over the big blu'ater ov'er yon'der aintcha?  In da USA we hatn't no need fer 'adjust' or 'know the course material well enough'.  Dats fer ya dam'commies aut'est!</htmltext>
<tokenext>You be one dem forn'rs from over the big blu'ater ov'er yon'der aintcha ?
In da USA we hat n't no need fer 'adjust ' or 'know the course material well enough' .
Dats fer ya dam'commies aut'est !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You be one dem forn'rs from over the big blu'ater ov'er yon'der aintcha?
In da USA we hatn't no need fer 'adjust' or 'know the course material well enough'.
Dats fer ya dam'commies aut'est!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112136</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112822</id>
	<title>I was a TA</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265989380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I was a TA for a year and caught numerous cheaters.  Two guys would would always cheat, the problem was they always handed in their assignments one on top of each other.  I would see some strange construct and then see it again on the very next paper.  Sometimes I would have to go up and look something up in the manual as it was something I had never seen before, so they cheated with someone knowledgeable and then see it on the next paper.  Happened week after week.

On the final assignment, I caught half the class cheating and suspect another 10\% or so.  Teacher put the programs in two piles on the desk in front of the class at the final exam.  One for cheaters, one for honest folks.  Not one single cheater picked up their program and several "honest" people didn't either.  Teachers was approach was to say, "I caught three people cheating, take the lowest grade and divide by three."  Seemed to work.

I guess I have "cheated" myself.  I couldn't get an assembler program to run and it was getting an exception.  In our university, this gets a big, fat zero regardless of how well you did the rest of the program and output was on a third of the grade.  With ten minutes before the program was due, instead of branching over the memory area where the registered were stored, I changed the standard linkage and branched to the register which exited the program.

So a "BR R14" --&gt; "BR R15"

So basically the program started, stored the registers, and immediately exited.  The TA never noticed and I got a 65\%, better than 0\%.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I was a TA for a year and caught numerous cheaters .
Two guys would would always cheat , the problem was they always handed in their assignments one on top of each other .
I would see some strange construct and then see it again on the very next paper .
Sometimes I would have to go up and look something up in the manual as it was something I had never seen before , so they cheated with someone knowledgeable and then see it on the next paper .
Happened week after week .
On the final assignment , I caught half the class cheating and suspect another 10 \ % or so .
Teacher put the programs in two piles on the desk in front of the class at the final exam .
One for cheaters , one for honest folks .
Not one single cheater picked up their program and several " honest " people did n't either .
Teachers was approach was to say , " I caught three people cheating , take the lowest grade and divide by three .
" Seemed to work .
I guess I have " cheated " myself .
I could n't get an assembler program to run and it was getting an exception .
In our university , this gets a big , fat zero regardless of how well you did the rest of the program and output was on a third of the grade .
With ten minutes before the program was due , instead of branching over the memory area where the registered were stored , I changed the standard linkage and branched to the register which exited the program .
So a " BR R14 " -- &gt; " BR R15 " So basically the program started , stored the registers , and immediately exited .
The TA never noticed and I got a 65 \ % , better than 0 \ % .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was a TA for a year and caught numerous cheaters.
Two guys would would always cheat, the problem was they always handed in their assignments one on top of each other.
I would see some strange construct and then see it again on the very next paper.
Sometimes I would have to go up and look something up in the manual as it was something I had never seen before, so they cheated with someone knowledgeable and then see it on the next paper.
Happened week after week.
On the final assignment, I caught half the class cheating and suspect another 10\% or so.
Teacher put the programs in two piles on the desk in front of the class at the final exam.
One for cheaters, one for honest folks.
Not one single cheater picked up their program and several "honest" people didn't either.
Teachers was approach was to say, "I caught three people cheating, take the lowest grade and divide by three.
"  Seemed to work.
I guess I have "cheated" myself.
I couldn't get an assembler program to run and it was getting an exception.
In our university, this gets a big, fat zero regardless of how well you did the rest of the program and output was on a third of the grade.
With ten minutes before the program was due, instead of branching over the memory area where the registered were stored, I changed the standard linkage and branched to the register which exited the program.
So a "BR R14" --&gt; "BR R15"

So basically the program started, stored the registers, and immediately exited.
The TA never noticed and I got a 65\%, better than 0\%.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112470</id>
	<title>I can has degree nao?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265987820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I apologize for the long post. The issue of cheating is very dear to me. It was the single most frustrating part of my education, and I often felt as if I were the only honest student in my undergraduate program.</p><p>As another poster mentioned, blame can be pinned on both instructors and students. But "blame" is only useful when it can be used to fix the original problem, and this problem is too big to fix by pointing fingers and admonishing each other. It's a cultural shift toward the worst, and we're powerless to stop it.</p><p>You can only deal with cheaters when cheating is uncommon and has an attached stigma. We've come to the point where cheating is so common that accusations of plagiarism are just met with "so, lol?".</p><p>Really, what we have here is a failure to take life seriously. In school, everything is a joke, a show. Nobody earnestly attends class, or does homework. People who ask questions in class are either trying to delay the lesson or merely stroke their ego by one-upping the professor. (I've been accused of both.)</p><p>At least in my experience, the typical student doesn't even seem to consider the idea that someone might want to actually learn. Learning is a chore, class an ordeal, and the professor the enemy. As a result, shameless, rampant cheating is rampant in the "I can haz degree nao?" generation.</p><p>My favorite example involves a project to build a userspace filesystem "driver". It was simple enough, and the professor even gave us interface specifications.</p><p>The reaction was catastrophic. Students complained that the assignment was too hard, that they didn't know the algorithms, and that half a semester was too little time. They talked in the hallway in hushed tones of outrage and asked whether they could appeal to the dean.</p><p>The real issue behind the complains is that the assignment would make them think, and most of them had no idea how to do anything beyond compile code fed to them with a spoon. The assignment involved analytic thought, which my fellow students appeared to consider Herculean.</p><p>"Poor students whine about having to do real work for once," you might say.</p><p>Except that the TAs for the class shared this adversarial, anti-intellectual mentality. In recitations, the TAs <b>provided "sample code" sufficient for the whole project</b>. Crisis averted, right? A grades were handed out to people I personally knew had no idea of when to use a loop instead of a function call.</p><p>These people graduated with degrees in CS, but they're completely unable to develop original software. Tasked with an assignment, they'll just copy code from the internet or ask on IRC, laughing about it the whole time. They'll choose systems based not on their technical merits, but on "documentation" --- meaning they'll choose the system that has the easiest-looking introductory tutorial. Their code will have bugs because they have no idea how to code, and their programs are chimeras of copy-and-pasted examples.</p><p>We're all worse off for these imbeciles running around, and those of us who consider this profession a craft, and who take pride in our work, and impoverished by having to share a degree with people who want to avoid thinking at any cost, and who <i>laugh</i> at the idea of serious work. The laughter is what bothers me most. It's how I know we're doomed.</p><p>*Never mind that the "operating systems" class never involved leaving ring 3.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I apologize for the long post .
The issue of cheating is very dear to me .
It was the single most frustrating part of my education , and I often felt as if I were the only honest student in my undergraduate program.As another poster mentioned , blame can be pinned on both instructors and students .
But " blame " is only useful when it can be used to fix the original problem , and this problem is too big to fix by pointing fingers and admonishing each other .
It 's a cultural shift toward the worst , and we 're powerless to stop it.You can only deal with cheaters when cheating is uncommon and has an attached stigma .
We 've come to the point where cheating is so common that accusations of plagiarism are just met with " so , lol ?
" .Really , what we have here is a failure to take life seriously .
In school , everything is a joke , a show .
Nobody earnestly attends class , or does homework .
People who ask questions in class are either trying to delay the lesson or merely stroke their ego by one-upping the professor .
( I 've been accused of both .
) At least in my experience , the typical student does n't even seem to consider the idea that someone might want to actually learn .
Learning is a chore , class an ordeal , and the professor the enemy .
As a result , shameless , rampant cheating is rampant in the " I can haz degree nao ?
" generation.My favorite example involves a project to build a userspace filesystem " driver " .
It was simple enough , and the professor even gave us interface specifications.The reaction was catastrophic .
Students complained that the assignment was too hard , that they did n't know the algorithms , and that half a semester was too little time .
They talked in the hallway in hushed tones of outrage and asked whether they could appeal to the dean.The real issue behind the complains is that the assignment would make them think , and most of them had no idea how to do anything beyond compile code fed to them with a spoon .
The assignment involved analytic thought , which my fellow students appeared to consider Herculean .
" Poor students whine about having to do real work for once , " you might say.Except that the TAs for the class shared this adversarial , anti-intellectual mentality .
In recitations , the TAs provided " sample code " sufficient for the whole project .
Crisis averted , right ?
A grades were handed out to people I personally knew had no idea of when to use a loop instead of a function call.These people graduated with degrees in CS , but they 're completely unable to develop original software .
Tasked with an assignment , they 'll just copy code from the internet or ask on IRC , laughing about it the whole time .
They 'll choose systems based not on their technical merits , but on " documentation " --- meaning they 'll choose the system that has the easiest-looking introductory tutorial .
Their code will have bugs because they have no idea how to code , and their programs are chimeras of copy-and-pasted examples.We 're all worse off for these imbeciles running around , and those of us who consider this profession a craft , and who take pride in our work , and impoverished by having to share a degree with people who want to avoid thinking at any cost , and who laugh at the idea of serious work .
The laughter is what bothers me most .
It 's how I know we 're doomed .
* Never mind that the " operating systems " class never involved leaving ring 3 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I apologize for the long post.
The issue of cheating is very dear to me.
It was the single most frustrating part of my education, and I often felt as if I were the only honest student in my undergraduate program.As another poster mentioned, blame can be pinned on both instructors and students.
But "blame" is only useful when it can be used to fix the original problem, and this problem is too big to fix by pointing fingers and admonishing each other.
It's a cultural shift toward the worst, and we're powerless to stop it.You can only deal with cheaters when cheating is uncommon and has an attached stigma.
We've come to the point where cheating is so common that accusations of plagiarism are just met with "so, lol?
".Really, what we have here is a failure to take life seriously.
In school, everything is a joke, a show.
Nobody earnestly attends class, or does homework.
People who ask questions in class are either trying to delay the lesson or merely stroke their ego by one-upping the professor.
(I've been accused of both.
)At least in my experience, the typical student doesn't even seem to consider the idea that someone might want to actually learn.
Learning is a chore, class an ordeal, and the professor the enemy.
As a result, shameless, rampant cheating is rampant in the "I can haz degree nao?
" generation.My favorite example involves a project to build a userspace filesystem "driver".
It was simple enough, and the professor even gave us interface specifications.The reaction was catastrophic.
Students complained that the assignment was too hard, that they didn't know the algorithms, and that half a semester was too little time.
They talked in the hallway in hushed tones of outrage and asked whether they could appeal to the dean.The real issue behind the complains is that the assignment would make them think, and most of them had no idea how to do anything beyond compile code fed to them with a spoon.
The assignment involved analytic thought, which my fellow students appeared to consider Herculean.
"Poor students whine about having to do real work for once," you might say.Except that the TAs for the class shared this adversarial, anti-intellectual mentality.
In recitations, the TAs provided "sample code" sufficient for the whole project.
Crisis averted, right?
A grades were handed out to people I personally knew had no idea of when to use a loop instead of a function call.These people graduated with degrees in CS, but they're completely unable to develop original software.
Tasked with an assignment, they'll just copy code from the internet or ask on IRC, laughing about it the whole time.
They'll choose systems based not on their technical merits, but on "documentation" --- meaning they'll choose the system that has the easiest-looking introductory tutorial.
Their code will have bugs because they have no idea how to code, and their programs are chimeras of copy-and-pasted examples.We're all worse off for these imbeciles running around, and those of us who consider this profession a craft, and who take pride in our work, and impoverished by having to share a degree with people who want to avoid thinking at any cost, and who laugh at the idea of serious work.
The laughter is what bothers me most.
It's how I know we're doomed.
*Never mind that the "operating systems" class never involved leaving ring 3.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113210</id>
	<title>Re:No outside help ?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265991240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I went to school at UMBC and I also had the same experience. While, I suppose it could foster cheating, most professors encouraged it because it allowed learning from each other.</p><p>In addition, I even had a professor who said, "I you work in groups--and I encourage you to do so--please only turn in one homework assignment with ALL of your names on it. I hate grading the same exact thing multiple times."</p><p>I also had another professor, Waves and Communications, who was also in charge of the EE department, who gave exams that were open note, open book, open laptop. Her argument was that in the "real world" it would be absurd for you to try and do the work without any kind of reference. Memorizing formulas shouldn't be intentional but merely the product of using them repeatedly over time. However, this does put more work on the professor, since exams need to be original and force the students to really understand the concepts (as they should), otherwise you could just find the solution on Google.</p><p>I really enjoyed my professors there. Almost all of them were intelligent, approachable, and didn't force us to do unnecessary work to either save themselves work or to reinforce archaic teaching practices.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I went to school at UMBC and I also had the same experience .
While , I suppose it could foster cheating , most professors encouraged it because it allowed learning from each other.In addition , I even had a professor who said , " I you work in groups--and I encourage you to do so--please only turn in one homework assignment with ALL of your names on it .
I hate grading the same exact thing multiple times .
" I also had another professor , Waves and Communications , who was also in charge of the EE department , who gave exams that were open note , open book , open laptop .
Her argument was that in the " real world " it would be absurd for you to try and do the work without any kind of reference .
Memorizing formulas should n't be intentional but merely the product of using them repeatedly over time .
However , this does put more work on the professor , since exams need to be original and force the students to really understand the concepts ( as they should ) , otherwise you could just find the solution on Google.I really enjoyed my professors there .
Almost all of them were intelligent , approachable , and did n't force us to do unnecessary work to either save themselves work or to reinforce archaic teaching practices .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I went to school at UMBC and I also had the same experience.
While, I suppose it could foster cheating, most professors encouraged it because it allowed learning from each other.In addition, I even had a professor who said, "I you work in groups--and I encourage you to do so--please only turn in one homework assignment with ALL of your names on it.
I hate grading the same exact thing multiple times.
"I also had another professor, Waves and Communications, who was also in charge of the EE department, who gave exams that were open note, open book, open laptop.
Her argument was that in the "real world" it would be absurd for you to try and do the work without any kind of reference.
Memorizing formulas shouldn't be intentional but merely the product of using them repeatedly over time.
However, this does put more work on the professor, since exams need to be original and force the students to really understand the concepts (as they should), otherwise you could just find the solution on Google.I really enjoyed my professors there.
Almost all of them were intelligent, approachable, and didn't force us to do unnecessary work to either save themselves work or to reinforce archaic teaching practices.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112518</id>
	<title>Re:No outside help ?</title>
	<author>quadelirus</author>
	<datestamp>1265988180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you didn't get the concept in class and the policy is not to get outside help then you email your professor and/or TA and go to their office hours. Not getting it is no excuse for cheating.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you did n't get the concept in class and the policy is not to get outside help then you email your professor and/or TA and go to their office hours .
Not getting it is no excuse for cheating .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you didn't get the concept in class and the policy is not to get outside help then you email your professor and/or TA and go to their office hours.
Not getting it is no excuse for cheating.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113316</id>
	<title>I guess they just give a slap on the wrist</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265991720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>But when I did my Comp. Sci. studies, back in the early 80's, I was almost expelled twice by having someone cheat off of my work.  It was only because the professor pretty much knew that it was me who did the work that I didn't have to go before the academic board.  Still I had to settle for a D while the cheater was given an F.  He was on the NCAA winning basketball team, which is probably why he didn't get expelled.   The next semester it happened again with a different student, but this time the professor just admonished me and sent the other student before the board.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>But when I did my Comp .
Sci. studies , back in the early 80 's , I was almost expelled twice by having someone cheat off of my work .
It was only because the professor pretty much knew that it was me who did the work that I did n't have to go before the academic board .
Still I had to settle for a D while the cheater was given an F. He was on the NCAA winning basketball team , which is probably why he did n't get expelled .
The next semester it happened again with a different student , but this time the professor just admonished me and sent the other student before the board .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But when I did my Comp.
Sci. studies, back in the early 80's, I was almost expelled twice by having someone cheat off of my work.
It was only because the professor pretty much knew that it was me who did the work that I didn't have to go before the academic board.
Still I had to settle for a D while the cheater was given an F.  He was on the NCAA winning basketball team, which is probably why he didn't get expelled.
The next semester it happened again with a different student, but this time the professor just admonished me and sent the other student before the board.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114296</id>
	<title>Stories</title>
	<author>dcollins</author>
	<datestamp>1265995500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Random personal story time:</p><p>(1) I (teaching college) have never been so angry in class as last semester when half of my computer literacy class cheated on freaking fill-Excel homeworks. Apparently I scared the crap out of them the next day, because some of the girls started crying (not that I'm proud of that). I'm hoping I never teach CS anything again... the mindset of students in introductory classes is just too often droolingly stupid.</p><p>(2) Prior college, probably the craziest interaction I ever had. I think I gave an assignment to command-line FTP into the RFC archive for a particular article and summarize one's findings. Of course, one student just copied the text, so I gave her an F. I had a 20 minute argument with her: "S: I didn't <i>copy</i> it, I <i>re-typed</i> it. All my English teachers allow that. T: That's the same thing. S: No it's not. T: Yes it is... etc. etc."</p><p>(3) I worked at a small game company where the two principal engineers gladly admitted that as a pair they'd cheated all their way through their college CS programs. The company was fairly successful, too (sold for some millions while I was there). That said, the one guy's code was semi-unmaintainable by anyone else (completely Lovecraftian mangled naming that even he couldn't remember, etc.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Random personal story time : ( 1 ) I ( teaching college ) have never been so angry in class as last semester when half of my computer literacy class cheated on freaking fill-Excel homeworks .
Apparently I scared the crap out of them the next day , because some of the girls started crying ( not that I 'm proud of that ) .
I 'm hoping I never teach CS anything again... the mindset of students in introductory classes is just too often droolingly stupid .
( 2 ) Prior college , probably the craziest interaction I ever had .
I think I gave an assignment to command-line FTP into the RFC archive for a particular article and summarize one 's findings .
Of course , one student just copied the text , so I gave her an F. I had a 20 minute argument with her : " S : I did n't copy it , I re-typed it .
All my English teachers allow that .
T : That 's the same thing .
S : No it 's not .
T : Yes it is... etc. etc .
" ( 3 ) I worked at a small game company where the two principal engineers gladly admitted that as a pair they 'd cheated all their way through their college CS programs .
The company was fairly successful , too ( sold for some millions while I was there ) .
That said , the one guy 's code was semi-unmaintainable by anyone else ( completely Lovecraftian mangled naming that even he could n't remember , etc .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Random personal story time:(1) I (teaching college) have never been so angry in class as last semester when half of my computer literacy class cheated on freaking fill-Excel homeworks.
Apparently I scared the crap out of them the next day, because some of the girls started crying (not that I'm proud of that).
I'm hoping I never teach CS anything again... the mindset of students in introductory classes is just too often droolingly stupid.
(2) Prior college, probably the craziest interaction I ever had.
I think I gave an assignment to command-line FTP into the RFC archive for a particular article and summarize one's findings.
Of course, one student just copied the text, so I gave her an F. I had a 20 minute argument with her: "S: I didn't copy it, I re-typed it.
All my English teachers allow that.
T: That's the same thing.
S: No it's not.
T: Yes it is... etc. etc.
"(3) I worked at a small game company where the two principal engineers gladly admitted that as a pair they'd cheated all their way through their college CS programs.
The company was fairly successful, too (sold for some millions while I was there).
That said, the one guy's code was semi-unmaintainable by anyone else (completely Lovecraftian mangled naming that even he couldn't remember, etc.
)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112330</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>hesaigo999ca</author>
	<datestamp>1265986980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree, but the jist of it is to under stress be able to think for yourself, and come up with the answer because you know it, not because you looked at someone else's paper, however, I do think school and the real world are not the same. They should marry the 2 on a test, but separate the questions based on how you answered them. If you got help, using a computer and google or whatever, that question is then added to a subset for marking that is based on how you used that info rather then knowing it, and you will be judges also on how well it performs after... where as the questions you knew the answer to... are kep in that subset and marked accordingly, so 50 out of 100 questions were answered by computer and 50 by knowledge, your test score now is 2, 50/50 and 50/50...so you end up splitting the test score then taking the average between both scores to get the final score. The only critical thing is to be able to know when someone had help for an answer, it would be tough to know, but maybe facial recognition, and monitoring like they do or even an actual eTest that when you needed help (internet) you would then have to click on a link, which would set a flag for that question before moving to use the browser...?</p><p>It could show promise.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree , but the jist of it is to under stress be able to think for yourself , and come up with the answer because you know it , not because you looked at someone else 's paper , however , I do think school and the real world are not the same .
They should marry the 2 on a test , but separate the questions based on how you answered them .
If you got help , using a computer and google or whatever , that question is then added to a subset for marking that is based on how you used that info rather then knowing it , and you will be judges also on how well it performs after... where as the questions you knew the answer to... are kep in that subset and marked accordingly , so 50 out of 100 questions were answered by computer and 50 by knowledge , your test score now is 2 , 50/50 and 50/50...so you end up splitting the test score then taking the average between both scores to get the final score .
The only critical thing is to be able to know when someone had help for an answer , it would be tough to know , but maybe facial recognition , and monitoring like they do or even an actual eTest that when you needed help ( internet ) you would then have to click on a link , which would set a flag for that question before moving to use the browser... ? It could show promise .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree, but the jist of it is to under stress be able to think for yourself, and come up with the answer because you know it, not because you looked at someone else's paper, however, I do think school and the real world are not the same.
They should marry the 2 on a test, but separate the questions based on how you answered them.
If you got help, using a computer and google or whatever, that question is then added to a subset for marking that is based on how you used that info rather then knowing it, and you will be judges also on how well it performs after... where as the questions you knew the answer to... are kep in that subset and marked accordingly, so 50 out of 100 questions were answered by computer and 50 by knowledge, your test score now is 2, 50/50 and 50/50...so you end up splitting the test score then taking the average between both scores to get the final score.
The only critical thing is to be able to know when someone had help for an answer, it would be tough to know, but maybe facial recognition, and monitoring like they do or even an actual eTest that when you needed help (internet) you would then have to click on a link, which would set a flag for that question before moving to use the browser...?It could show promise.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114882</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265997540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Big deal.  I turned in completed self-authored code for Data Structures homework.</p><p>The professor made a point to stop me after class and thank me for 'how good my code works and looks.'</p><p>I asked him why he flunked me on the assignment even though my code passed all the required tests.</p><p>"Oh, I don't the grade homework, my TAs do."</p><p>Apparently students aren't the only ones having others do their work and taking the credit in the CS program.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Big deal .
I turned in completed self-authored code for Data Structures homework.The professor made a point to stop me after class and thank me for 'how good my code works and looks .
'I asked him why he flunked me on the assignment even though my code passed all the required tests .
" Oh , I do n't the grade homework , my TAs do .
" Apparently students are n't the only ones having others do their work and taking the credit in the CS program .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Big deal.
I turned in completed self-authored code for Data Structures homework.The professor made a point to stop me after class and thank me for 'how good my code works and looks.
'I asked him why he flunked me on the assignment even though my code passed all the required tests.
"Oh, I don't the grade homework, my TAs do.
"Apparently students aren't the only ones having others do their work and taking the credit in the CS program.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112126</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112118</id>
	<title>Not sure about that strategy...</title>
	<author>8tim8</author>
	<datestamp>1265985780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt;One interesting strategy discussed is for the professor to make the final count for more of the final grade each time cheating is discovered.</p><p>I don't teach CS but I do teach college-level history, and I think that would cause some problems.  For one thing (if I understand what they're saying), essentially everyone's grade changes whenever even a single student is caught cheating.  If you aced the midterm that was 40\% of the grade, well, sorry, now it's only 30\% of the grade and you'll have to make it up on the final.  While cheating is, obviously, a bad thing, I don't think the entire class should be made to suffer because of it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; One interesting strategy discussed is for the professor to make the final count for more of the final grade each time cheating is discovered.I do n't teach CS but I do teach college-level history , and I think that would cause some problems .
For one thing ( if I understand what they 're saying ) , essentially everyone 's grade changes whenever even a single student is caught cheating .
If you aced the midterm that was 40 \ % of the grade , well , sorry , now it 's only 30 \ % of the grade and you 'll have to make it up on the final .
While cheating is , obviously , a bad thing , I do n't think the entire class should be made to suffer because of it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt;One interesting strategy discussed is for the professor to make the final count for more of the final grade each time cheating is discovered.I don't teach CS but I do teach college-level history, and I think that would cause some problems.
For one thing (if I understand what they're saying), essentially everyone's grade changes whenever even a single student is caught cheating.
If you aced the midterm that was 40\% of the grade, well, sorry, now it's only 30\% of the grade and you'll have to make it up on the final.
While cheating is, obviously, a bad thing, I don't think the entire class should be made to suffer because of it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113970</id>
	<title>Dumb Cheaters</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265994300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was a TA / Lab Technician while a student at university. Assignments were submitted electronically over the network where my master grader would attempt to compile the code and run it through several test cases before notifying me to grade the source code.</p><p>One of the first assignments was a program to print the first x Fibonacci numbers. One student included the comment "Who's Fibonacci?" Another student had the comment "I don't know". Another student hard coded the first 10 Fibonacci numbers and just timed out after that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was a TA / Lab Technician while a student at university .
Assignments were submitted electronically over the network where my master grader would attempt to compile the code and run it through several test cases before notifying me to grade the source code.One of the first assignments was a program to print the first x Fibonacci numbers .
One student included the comment " Who 's Fibonacci ?
" Another student had the comment " I do n't know " .
Another student hard coded the first 10 Fibonacci numbers and just timed out after that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was a TA / Lab Technician while a student at university.
Assignments were submitted electronically over the network where my master grader would attempt to compile the code and run it through several test cases before notifying me to grade the source code.One of the first assignments was a program to print the first x Fibonacci numbers.
One student included the comment "Who's Fibonacci?
" Another student had the comment "I don't know".
Another student hard coded the first 10 Fibonacci numbers and just timed out after that.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113006</id>
	<title>Re:Very easy, and very easy to get caught</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265990280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, I love the idea that if two people work together to code something, they should fail. Teamwork is definitely a sin.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , I love the idea that if two people work together to code something , they should fail .
Teamwork is definitely a sin .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, I love the idea that if two people work together to code something, they should fail.
Teamwork is definitely a sin.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114040</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265994540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've had professors insist on certain naming, indentation, and brace conventions. That kills a lot of your listed fingerprints, but probably still leaves enough that most assignments should be unique.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've had professors insist on certain naming , indentation , and brace conventions .
That kills a lot of your listed fingerprints , but probably still leaves enough that most assignments should be unique .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've had professors insist on certain naming, indentation, and brace conventions.
That kills a lot of your listed fingerprints, but probably still leaves enough that most assignments should be unique.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112868</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112766</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>SoothingMist</author>
	<datestamp>1265989140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>In the corporate environment, if one acknowledges the source, that is not cheating nor stealing. There are indeed no rewards for reinventing the wheel.

In education, however, one has to learn fundamental skills and acquire rudimentary experience, while gaining a broad education. Thus, one does have to "reinvent the wheel" to demonstrate that one understands "wheels".

As an adjunct teaching undergraduate and graduate students, it is amazing to me how few of them want to learn, much less think. My personal estimate is that only 25\% have a worthy performance ethic. I am merciless with cheaters, giving zeros in cases I can prove. As a result, my overall grade average is very low. Another factor that leads to this low average is the increasing push to gather "students" from further and further down the left hand side of the bell curve (as defined by performance ethic).</htmltext>
<tokenext>In the corporate environment , if one acknowledges the source , that is not cheating nor stealing .
There are indeed no rewards for reinventing the wheel .
In education , however , one has to learn fundamental skills and acquire rudimentary experience , while gaining a broad education .
Thus , one does have to " reinvent the wheel " to demonstrate that one understands " wheels " .
As an adjunct teaching undergraduate and graduate students , it is amazing to me how few of them want to learn , much less think .
My personal estimate is that only 25 \ % have a worthy performance ethic .
I am merciless with cheaters , giving zeros in cases I can prove .
As a result , my overall grade average is very low .
Another factor that leads to this low average is the increasing push to gather " students " from further and further down the left hand side of the bell curve ( as defined by performance ethic ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In the corporate environment, if one acknowledges the source, that is not cheating nor stealing.
There are indeed no rewards for reinventing the wheel.
In education, however, one has to learn fundamental skills and acquire rudimentary experience, while gaining a broad education.
Thus, one does have to "reinvent the wheel" to demonstrate that one understands "wheels".
As an adjunct teaching undergraduate and graduate students, it is amazing to me how few of them want to learn, much less think.
My personal estimate is that only 25\% have a worthy performance ethic.
I am merciless with cheaters, giving zeros in cases I can prove.
As a result, my overall grade average is very low.
Another factor that leads to this low average is the increasing push to gather "students" from further and further down the left hand side of the bell curve (as defined by performance ethic).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31124234</id>
	<title>Re:When stealing code...</title>
	<author>masmullin</author>
	<datestamp>1265995020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>When stealing code, you should at least be able to discern whether it's good code or not. Seriously.</p></div><p>Well thats the catch22 isn't it?  if you could discern whether its good code or not you wouldn't have to cheat.</p><p>I guess the people who just want to cheat but dont have to dont get caught.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>When stealing code , you should at least be able to discern whether it 's good code or not .
Seriously.Well thats the catch22 is n't it ?
if you could discern whether its good code or not you would n't have to cheat.I guess the people who just want to cheat but dont have to dont get caught .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When stealing code, you should at least be able to discern whether it's good code or not.
Seriously.Well thats the catch22 isn't it?
if you could discern whether its good code or not you wouldn't have to cheat.I guess the people who just want to cheat but dont have to dont get caught.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111998</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113390</id>
	<title>lazy is another word for efficient</title>
	<author>petes\_PoV</author>
	<datestamp>1265992080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>doing the least amount of work to achieve the required result. In engineering circles this is an attribute (of mechanical and electrical systems) that is praiseworthy and valued. After all, who wats to waste energy?
<p>
In business it can be considered "lazy" or efficient, depending on how it's presented. If a person uses the time saved to do more work, it's called "being efficient". if they spend that time goofing around, they're called lazy. Now it might be that the <b>really</b> lazy people who never do y work have simply discovered that the things they are asked to do aren't that necessary - and that nothing bad happens it they therefore don't do it.
</p><p>
Expending the least effort to meet your goals should be recognised as an asset - setting dumb goals that are unnecessary or wasteful should be punished.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>doing the least amount of work to achieve the required result .
In engineering circles this is an attribute ( of mechanical and electrical systems ) that is praiseworthy and valued .
After all , who wats to waste energy ?
In business it can be considered " lazy " or efficient , depending on how it 's presented .
If a person uses the time saved to do more work , it 's called " being efficient " .
if they spend that time goofing around , they 're called lazy .
Now it might be that the really lazy people who never do y work have simply discovered that the things they are asked to do are n't that necessary - and that nothing bad happens it they therefore do n't do it .
Expending the least effort to meet your goals should be recognised as an asset - setting dumb goals that are unnecessary or wasteful should be punished .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>doing the least amount of work to achieve the required result.
In engineering circles this is an attribute (of mechanical and electrical systems) that is praiseworthy and valued.
After all, who wats to waste energy?
In business it can be considered "lazy" or efficient, depending on how it's presented.
If a person uses the time saved to do more work, it's called "being efficient".
if they spend that time goofing around, they're called lazy.
Now it might be that the really lazy people who never do y work have simply discovered that the things they are asked to do aren't that necessary - and that nothing bad happens it they therefore don't do it.
Expending the least effort to meet your goals should be recognised as an asset - setting dumb goals that are unnecessary or wasteful should be punished.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111934</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112590</id>
	<title>Definition of cheating</title>
	<author>wisnoskij</author>
	<datestamp>1265988480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>While some cases are cut and dry some are not.<br>
I know in my CS program, we are not supposed to ever see any of our classmates code.<br>
Now I know I have been in situations were I did not understand this new language they were trying to teach us (mostly because they left the learning up to us) and have asked for and received someone else code <b>to learn from and write my own code, not to copy</b>.<br>
and i have shared my code on a few occasions with people i knew were not going to copy it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>While some cases are cut and dry some are not .
I know in my CS program , we are not supposed to ever see any of our classmates code .
Now I know I have been in situations were I did not understand this new language they were trying to teach us ( mostly because they left the learning up to us ) and have asked for and received someone else code to learn from and write my own code , not to copy .
and i have shared my code on a few occasions with people i knew were not going to copy it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While some cases are cut and dry some are not.
I know in my CS program, we are not supposed to ever see any of our classmates code.
Now I know I have been in situations were I did not understand this new language they were trying to teach us (mostly because they left the learning up to us) and have asked for and received someone else code to learn from and write my own code, not to copy.
and i have shared my code on a few occasions with people i knew were not going to copy it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113344</id>
	<title>Cheating is Good Money</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265991900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Thankfully there are a massive collection of terrible students with money.  It's easy to sell trivial assignments for 100 dollars or more, which is nice in this economy.  Even better, you can "tutor" which is really just doing the assignment in front of them so they know you didn't sell it to anyone else and at double the cost.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Thankfully there are a massive collection of terrible students with money .
It 's easy to sell trivial assignments for 100 dollars or more , which is nice in this economy .
Even better , you can " tutor " which is really just doing the assignment in front of them so they know you did n't sell it to anyone else and at double the cost .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thankfully there are a massive collection of terrible students with money.
It's easy to sell trivial assignments for 100 dollars or more, which is nice in this economy.
Even better, you can "tutor" which is really just doing the assignment in front of them so they know you didn't sell it to anyone else and at double the cost.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115556</id>
	<title>I never cheated in CS, but I tried to in...</title>
	<author>coryodaniel</author>
	<datestamp>1266000300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I never cheated in CS, but I tried to in Accounting. All the laws/rules were a pain in the ass to remember, we were allowed to use calculators on our tests, so I would program tons of notes into my calculator... end result was me actually learning the crap while I was typing it in on that stupid little pinpad keyboard.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I never cheated in CS , but I tried to in Accounting .
All the laws/rules were a pain in the ass to remember , we were allowed to use calculators on our tests , so I would program tons of notes into my calculator... end result was me actually learning the crap while I was typing it in on that stupid little pinpad keyboard .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I never cheated in CS, but I tried to in Accounting.
All the laws/rules were a pain in the ass to remember, we were allowed to use calculators on our tests, so I would program tons of notes into my calculator... end result was me actually learning the crap while I was typing it in on that stupid little pinpad keyboard.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31123226</id>
	<title>Re:Cheating</title>
	<author>benjfowler</author>
	<datestamp>1265985840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Relyig to my own post (I know, bad form)... the fee-payers can be desperate alright.  The Chinese seem to have a penchant for doing whatever it takes to get ahead, regardless of the morality, or lack thereof, of what they are doing...</p><p>I got good marks, so I ended up getting the attention of some (admitted rather cute) Chinese girl, who got quite friendly.  "Friendly", to the point where she was willing to sell herself in exchange for me giving her money for textbooks.  To a lonely sex-starved geek such as myself, that was quite a tempting proposition.</p><p>I've never felt so slimy in my entire life....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Relyig to my own post ( I know , bad form ) ... the fee-payers can be desperate alright .
The Chinese seem to have a penchant for doing whatever it takes to get ahead , regardless of the morality , or lack thereof , of what they are doing...I got good marks , so I ended up getting the attention of some ( admitted rather cute ) Chinese girl , who got quite friendly .
" Friendly " , to the point where she was willing to sell herself in exchange for me giving her money for textbooks .
To a lonely sex-starved geek such as myself , that was quite a tempting proposition.I 've never felt so slimy in my entire life... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Relyig to my own post (I know, bad form)... the fee-payers can be desperate alright.
The Chinese seem to have a penchant for doing whatever it takes to get ahead, regardless of the morality, or lack thereof, of what they are doing...I got good marks, so I ended up getting the attention of some (admitted rather cute) Chinese girl, who got quite friendly.
"Friendly", to the point where she was willing to sell herself in exchange for me giving her money for textbooks.
To a lonely sex-starved geek such as myself, that was quite a tempting proposition.I've never felt so slimy in my entire life....</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112866</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112228</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>Giant Electronic Bra</author>
	<datestamp>1265986380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah, as a few others have said, I agree with you and I was going to post something similar. At least up to a point. Most software development projects are highly cooperative affairs and its rarely a matter of success hinging on one's brilliance as a coder. Still, you have to be able to contribute and at least <b>some</b> members of the team need good design skills of various types.</p><p>The reality is that successful projects mostly succeed because someone in charge is good at utilizing the strengths of the other team members. Even a technically weak team can do quite well on many classes of projects if well led. CS courses have gotten better at teaching team building but still overemphasize coding. One wonders if some of the 'cheaters' might not actually be on the right track...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , as a few others have said , I agree with you and I was going to post something similar .
At least up to a point .
Most software development projects are highly cooperative affairs and its rarely a matter of success hinging on one 's brilliance as a coder .
Still , you have to be able to contribute and at least some members of the team need good design skills of various types.The reality is that successful projects mostly succeed because someone in charge is good at utilizing the strengths of the other team members .
Even a technically weak team can do quite well on many classes of projects if well led .
CS courses have gotten better at teaching team building but still overemphasize coding .
One wonders if some of the 'cheaters ' might not actually be on the right track.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, as a few others have said, I agree with you and I was going to post something similar.
At least up to a point.
Most software development projects are highly cooperative affairs and its rarely a matter of success hinging on one's brilliance as a coder.
Still, you have to be able to contribute and at least some members of the team need good design skills of various types.The reality is that successful projects mostly succeed because someone in charge is good at utilizing the strengths of the other team members.
Even a technically weak team can do quite well on many classes of projects if well led.
CS courses have gotten better at teaching team building but still overemphasize coding.
One wonders if some of the 'cheaters' might not actually be on the right track...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112718</id>
	<title>Cheating in CS</title>
	<author>krnpimpsta</author>
	<datestamp>1265988960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm sick of wall-hackers, aim-botters, and speed-hackers.  I'm glad Stanford is finally looking into this, because cheating in CS has made the game thoroughly unenjoyable.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm sick of wall-hackers , aim-botters , and speed-hackers .
I 'm glad Stanford is finally looking into this , because cheating in CS has made the game thoroughly unenjoyable .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm sick of wall-hackers, aim-botters, and speed-hackers.
I'm glad Stanford is finally looking into this, because cheating in CS has made the game thoroughly unenjoyable.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114088</id>
	<title>Re:Expelled</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265994720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Right, because we know how well the ultimate punishment, execution, deters crime.</p><p>-mobby\_6kl</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Right , because we know how well the ultimate punishment , execution , deters crime.-mobby \ _6kl</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Right, because we know how well the ultimate punishment, execution, deters crime.-mobby\_6kl</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31119970</id>
	<title>Very Easy</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265971620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There's a couple of guys out there who owes me a favor or two.  In their defense, these were guys who had no intention of working in CS and were only studying it cause their parents made them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's a couple of guys out there who owes me a favor or two .
In their defense , these were guys who had no intention of working in CS and were only studying it cause their parents made them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's a couple of guys out there who owes me a favor or two.
In their defense, these were guys who had no intention of working in CS and were only studying it cause their parents made them.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31133922</id>
	<title>Re:A ramble from the TAs view</title>
	<author>eyore15</author>
	<datestamp>1266154740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I each HS<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... your problem is that it's my problem.  Cheating here is rampant, especially in the honors classes.  It seems the more important the grade, the more cheating we see.  If we follow the guidelines for dealing with a suspected teacher, mom just calls the department chair, and the penalties no longer apply.  Or if you have the right last name.  I suspect that it's become so second nature to them that they just presume cheating will be OK in what comes next.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I each HS ... your problem is that it 's my problem .
Cheating here is rampant , especially in the honors classes .
It seems the more important the grade , the more cheating we see .
If we follow the guidelines for dealing with a suspected teacher , mom just calls the department chair , and the penalties no longer apply .
Or if you have the right last name .
I suspect that it 's become so second nature to them that they just presume cheating will be OK in what comes next .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I each HS ... your problem is that it's my problem.
Cheating here is rampant, especially in the honors classes.
It seems the more important the grade, the more cheating we see.
If we follow the guidelines for dealing with a suspected teacher, mom just calls the department chair, and the penalties no longer apply.
Or if you have the right last name.
I suspect that it's become so second nature to them that they just presume cheating will be OK in what comes next.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112094</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113160</id>
	<title>Punish the entire class?</title>
	<author>Dammital</author>
	<datestamp>1265991060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>For every honor code violation by an <i>individual</i>, the entire class gets to enjoy an additional 5\% increase in the value of the final exam.
<br> <br>
That's simply wrong.  Do they do prof evals at Stanford, tied to salaries and tenure?  I suggest that when innocent students get screwed that those evals take the injustice into account.  Sauce for the goose, Mr. Saavik.</htmltext>
<tokenext>For every honor code violation by an individual , the entire class gets to enjoy an additional 5 \ % increase in the value of the final exam .
That 's simply wrong .
Do they do prof evals at Stanford , tied to salaries and tenure ?
I suggest that when innocent students get screwed that those evals take the injustice into account .
Sauce for the goose , Mr. Saavik .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For every honor code violation by an individual, the entire class gets to enjoy an additional 5\% increase in the value of the final exam.
That's simply wrong.
Do they do prof evals at Stanford, tied to salaries and tenure?
I suggest that when innocent students get screwed that those evals take the injustice into account.
Sauce for the goose, Mr. Saavik.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113536</id>
	<title>The way I see it...</title>
	<author>pak9rabid</author>
	<datestamp>1265992740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I let people cheat off me in school.  The way I saw it, it reduced the amount of real competition I'd have when companies came to campus looking to recruit soon-to-be graduates for jobs.  Call me shitty, but if you're still cheating at the COLLEGE level (when you're supposed to actually be interested in the classes you choose to take), then you deserve what you get in the long run.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I let people cheat off me in school .
The way I saw it , it reduced the amount of real competition I 'd have when companies came to campus looking to recruit soon-to-be graduates for jobs .
Call me shitty , but if you 're still cheating at the COLLEGE level ( when you 're supposed to actually be interested in the classes you choose to take ) , then you deserve what you get in the long run .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I let people cheat off me in school.
The way I saw it, it reduced the amount of real competition I'd have when companies came to campus looking to recruit soon-to-be graduates for jobs.
Call me shitty, but if you're still cheating at the COLLEGE level (when you're supposed to actually be interested in the classes you choose to take), then you deserve what you get in the long run.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112682</id>
	<title>Re:Expelled</title>
	<author>QuoteMstr</author>
	<datestamp>1265988780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Harsh punishments don't work. Because the punishments are so drastic, instructors become reluctant to give them out to "good kids" who made "one mistake." Lax punishment becomes to de facto standard, and of a rogue instructor tries to apply the penalties as written, his students and his peers look at him as a monster and exert considerable pressure to loosen up.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Harsh punishments do n't work .
Because the punishments are so drastic , instructors become reluctant to give them out to " good kids " who made " one mistake .
" Lax punishment becomes to de facto standard , and of a rogue instructor tries to apply the penalties as written , his students and his peers look at him as a monster and exert considerable pressure to loosen up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Harsh punishments don't work.
Because the punishments are so drastic, instructors become reluctant to give them out to "good kids" who made "one mistake.
" Lax punishment becomes to de facto standard, and of a rogue instructor tries to apply the penalties as written, his students and his peers look at him as a monster and exert considerable pressure to loosen up.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114188</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265995080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You mean if.</p><p>Microsoft has been getting burned a lot lately by GPL violations.  Now, if they're actually getting caught these days, how often have they already gotten away with it?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You mean if.Microsoft has been getting burned a lot lately by GPL violations .
Now , if they 're actually getting caught these days , how often have they already gotten away with it ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You mean if.Microsoft has been getting burned a lot lately by GPL violations.
Now, if they're actually getting caught these days, how often have they already gotten away with it?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112158</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113198</id>
	<title>Re:Cheating is laziness...</title>
	<author>Evrion</author>
	<datestamp>1265991180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Scenario 1: unlikely. I'm a tutor, have been for years, the number of people that have low test grades, but can actually do the stuff I've run into? none. Usually, they understand the material given, but have some gaps in background or something to that effect.
<p>
If that is not the case, there is likely a significant learning disability which should have been noticed by somebody and acommodated for before university.

</p><p>
Scenario 2: That's why there is a "drop-add deadline". There are plenty of easy courses to
choose from.

</p><p>
Scenario 3: If an employer hires me because I got a great mark in my CS degree (or simply got it), then I can't actually code worth a hill of beans? That's just bad all around. Oh, and I suspect the employer will no longer hire from that school.

</p><p>
Grades don't mean anything in the real world. All those people who told you that grades are important? they lied. The only thing grades are good for is going on in school. The knowledge you gain, and the piece of paper representing it is what gets you on in real life.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Scenario 1 : unlikely .
I 'm a tutor , have been for years , the number of people that have low test grades , but can actually do the stuff I 've run into ?
none. Usually , they understand the material given , but have some gaps in background or something to that effect .
If that is not the case , there is likely a significant learning disability which should have been noticed by somebody and acommodated for before university .
Scenario 2 : That 's why there is a " drop-add deadline " .
There are plenty of easy courses to choose from .
Scenario 3 : If an employer hires me because I got a great mark in my CS degree ( or simply got it ) , then I ca n't actually code worth a hill of beans ?
That 's just bad all around .
Oh , and I suspect the employer will no longer hire from that school .
Grades do n't mean anything in the real world .
All those people who told you that grades are important ?
they lied .
The only thing grades are good for is going on in school .
The knowledge you gain , and the piece of paper representing it is what gets you on in real life .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Scenario 1: unlikely.
I'm a tutor, have been for years, the number of people that have low test grades, but can actually do the stuff I've run into?
none. Usually, they understand the material given, but have some gaps in background or something to that effect.
If that is not the case, there is likely a significant learning disability which should have been noticed by somebody and acommodated for before university.
Scenario 2: That's why there is a "drop-add deadline".
There are plenty of easy courses to
choose from.
Scenario 3: If an employer hires me because I got a great mark in my CS degree (or simply got it), then I can't actually code worth a hill of beans?
That's just bad all around.
Oh, and I suspect the employer will no longer hire from that school.
Grades don't mean anything in the real world.
All those people who told you that grades are important?
they lied.
The only thing grades are good for is going on in school.
The knowledge you gain, and the piece of paper representing it is what gets you on in real life.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112362</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31122858</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>CAIMLAS</author>
	<datestamp>1265983440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In uni, a friend and I worked on our final CS101 project together - something in C++, I don't recall specifically. I did the better (80\%+) part of it, and he ended up going into it. From what I can tell, he's not half bad.</p><p>Ironically, he's the programmer now, and I hate programming (preferring the system side of things).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In uni , a friend and I worked on our final CS101 project together - something in C + + , I do n't recall specifically .
I did the better ( 80 \ % + ) part of it , and he ended up going into it .
From what I can tell , he 's not half bad.Ironically , he 's the programmer now , and I hate programming ( preferring the system side of things ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In uni, a friend and I worked on our final CS101 project together - something in C++, I don't recall specifically.
I did the better (80\%+) part of it, and he ended up going into it.
From what I can tell, he's not half bad.Ironically, he's the programmer now, and I hate programming (preferring the system side of things).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112126</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113878</id>
	<title>Re:Expelled</title>
	<author>MobyDisk</author>
	<datestamp>1265993940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The difficulty is that stronger punishments require stronger proof.  You must be be 100\% sure that you have the right person.  It would suck if you tossed-out the best and brightest because people were copying their work.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The difficulty is that stronger punishments require stronger proof .
You must be be 100 \ % sure that you have the right person .
It would suck if you tossed-out the best and brightest because people were copying their work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The difficulty is that stronger punishments require stronger proof.
You must be be 100\% sure that you have the right person.
It would suck if you tossed-out the best and brightest because people were copying their work.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112158</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>TheRaven64</author>
	<datestamp>1265986080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>Depends on the cheating.  If, for example, you decide to cheat by taking some code from outside and incorporating it in your product, I doubt that your manager will be happy when your company is later sued for copyright infringement.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Depends on the cheating .
If , for example , you decide to cheat by taking some code from outside and incorporating it in your product , I doubt that your manager will be happy when your company is later sued for copyright infringement .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Depends on the cheating.
If, for example, you decide to cheat by taking some code from outside and incorporating it in your product, I doubt that your manager will be happy when your company is later sued for copyright infringement.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112782</id>
	<title>Kinda Cheating?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265989200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Our professors were pretty cool. You could hand your program in at any time as long as it was timestamped by a certain date and time from the computer lab. Each program printed would print with a banner page (line printers and VAX'en).</p><p>One time, the programs were due on a Friday and I didn't have it done. When I finished the program Saturday morning, I realized I could just create a fake banner at the top of my code. I'd print out the program, tear off the original banner, and my fake banner would look like the banner from the computer lab. It worked. The teacher never questioned it. I didn't get docked points for being late.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Our professors were pretty cool .
You could hand your program in at any time as long as it was timestamped by a certain date and time from the computer lab .
Each program printed would print with a banner page ( line printers and VAX'en ) .One time , the programs were due on a Friday and I did n't have it done .
When I finished the program Saturday morning , I realized I could just create a fake banner at the top of my code .
I 'd print out the program , tear off the original banner , and my fake banner would look like the banner from the computer lab .
It worked .
The teacher never questioned it .
I did n't get docked points for being late .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Our professors were pretty cool.
You could hand your program in at any time as long as it was timestamped by a certain date and time from the computer lab.
Each program printed would print with a banner page (line printers and VAX'en).One time, the programs were due on a Friday and I didn't have it done.
When I finished the program Saturday morning, I realized I could just create a fake banner at the top of my code.
I'd print out the program, tear off the original banner, and my fake banner would look like the banner from the computer lab.
It worked.
The teacher never questioned it.
I didn't get docked points for being late.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111934</id>
	<title>Cheating is laziness...</title>
	<author>Manip</author>
	<datestamp>1265984760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Cheating is laziness by the student but also the teacher who allowed it to take place. Cheating is very easy to avoid but it does require educators to be willing to create assignments that they themselves didn't download or buy from a teaching website. The fact is that when you use the same exact assignment year after year you're going to make cheating both accessible and profitable.</p><p>I would also like to add, that cheating is far worse in the US since the teachers grade the students instead of third party independent testing organisations who are contracted to create unique material for each test.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Cheating is laziness by the student but also the teacher who allowed it to take place .
Cheating is very easy to avoid but it does require educators to be willing to create assignments that they themselves did n't download or buy from a teaching website .
The fact is that when you use the same exact assignment year after year you 're going to make cheating both accessible and profitable.I would also like to add , that cheating is far worse in the US since the teachers grade the students instead of third party independent testing organisations who are contracted to create unique material for each test .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Cheating is laziness by the student but also the teacher who allowed it to take place.
Cheating is very easy to avoid but it does require educators to be willing to create assignments that they themselves didn't download or buy from a teaching website.
The fact is that when you use the same exact assignment year after year you're going to make cheating both accessible and profitable.I would also like to add, that cheating is far worse in the US since the teachers grade the students instead of third party independent testing organisations who are contracted to create unique material for each test.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114596</id>
	<title>Re:Punish-the-group theory... not so good</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265996580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't go to law school. For most classes there's a single exam, worth 100\% of your grade, and grading is curved. Personally I prefer it this way. It means I'm chiefly responsible for learning the material without having it spoon-feed to me in bite-sized assignments. The classes that cause me the most grief are the ones with weekly or semi-weekly assignments. Sometimes one week I'll want to focus on a particular class, but because of the intra-semester assignments I have to interrupt that immersion.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't go to law school .
For most classes there 's a single exam , worth 100 \ % of your grade , and grading is curved .
Personally I prefer it this way .
It means I 'm chiefly responsible for learning the material without having it spoon-feed to me in bite-sized assignments .
The classes that cause me the most grief are the ones with weekly or semi-weekly assignments .
Sometimes one week I 'll want to focus on a particular class , but because of the intra-semester assignments I have to interrupt that immersion .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't go to law school.
For most classes there's a single exam, worth 100\% of your grade, and grading is curved.
Personally I prefer it this way.
It means I'm chiefly responsible for learning the material without having it spoon-feed to me in bite-sized assignments.
The classes that cause me the most grief are the ones with weekly or semi-weekly assignments.
Sometimes one week I'll want to focus on a particular class, but because of the intra-semester assignments I have to interrupt that immersion.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112328</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31116424</id>
	<title>Re:No outside help ?</title>
	<author>emohawk</author>
	<datestamp>1266003600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Where i studied the grade was always decided by the final closed book off site hand written exam, 90\% of the grade. So copying code didn't change anything, you didnt even need to do the assignment since they were only 10\%. The only way to cheat was to bring notes into the exam and hope you dont get caught looking at them.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Where i studied the grade was always decided by the final closed book off site hand written exam , 90 \ % of the grade .
So copying code did n't change anything , you didnt even need to do the assignment since they were only 10 \ % .
The only way to cheat was to bring notes into the exam and hope you dont get caught looking at them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Where i studied the grade was always decided by the final closed book off site hand written exam, 90\% of the grade.
So copying code didn't change anything, you didnt even need to do the assignment since they were only 10\%.
The only way to cheat was to bring notes into the exam and hope you dont get caught looking at them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112078</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265985600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Besides, how many ways can you write a QuickSort?</p></div><p>At least two.<br>There is a nice trick that helps you save memory. You don't have to use it though, but then you use a bit more memory.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Besides , how many ways can you write a QuickSort ? At least two.There is a nice trick that helps you save memory .
You do n't have to use it though , but then you use a bit more memory .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Besides, how many ways can you write a QuickSort?At least two.There is a nice trick that helps you save memory.
You don't have to use it though, but then you use a bit more memory.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113124</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>TheRaven64</author>
	<datestamp>1265990940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>One of my professors explained that he'd do this to a degree based on the student.  He taught theory stuff, so most of his exam questions were of the form 'Prove that...' If you missed some steps in a proof, it was either because you didn't know how to do them, or because you thought that they were so obvious that they didn't need stating.  He'd mark you based on which of these he thought was true, based on your other work and your contributions in lectures.</htmltext>
<tokenext>One of my professors explained that he 'd do this to a degree based on the student .
He taught theory stuff , so most of his exam questions were of the form 'Prove that... ' If you missed some steps in a proof , it was either because you did n't know how to do them , or because you thought that they were so obvious that they did n't need stating .
He 'd mark you based on which of these he thought was true , based on your other work and your contributions in lectures .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One of my professors explained that he'd do this to a degree based on the student.
He taught theory stuff, so most of his exam questions were of the form 'Prove that...' If you missed some steps in a proof, it was either because you didn't know how to do them, or because you thought that they were so obvious that they didn't need stating.
He'd mark you based on which of these he thought was true, based on your other work and your contributions in lectures.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112126</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112632</id>
	<title>Re:Not sure about that strategy...</title>
	<author>RogueyWon</author>
	<datestamp>1265988600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If I were part of that class, I would be scrupulously avoid cheating myself (don't want to be suspended), but would take every possible opportunity to encourage my class-mates to cheat (and get caught).</p><p>I've always performed better in exam situations than at course-work. I work much better when I have an examination hall dumping adrenelin into my system. I've seen plenty of research that suggests that I'm by no means alone in this, with males being particularly likely to perform better in exams than coursework.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If I were part of that class , I would be scrupulously avoid cheating myself ( do n't want to be suspended ) , but would take every possible opportunity to encourage my class-mates to cheat ( and get caught ) .I 've always performed better in exam situations than at course-work .
I work much better when I have an examination hall dumping adrenelin into my system .
I 've seen plenty of research that suggests that I 'm by no means alone in this , with males being particularly likely to perform better in exams than coursework .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If I were part of that class, I would be scrupulously avoid cheating myself (don't want to be suspended), but would take every possible opportunity to encourage my class-mates to cheat (and get caught).I've always performed better in exam situations than at course-work.
I work much better when I have an examination hall dumping adrenelin into my system.
I've seen plenty of research that suggests that I'm by no means alone in this, with males being particularly likely to perform better in exams than coursework.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112118</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31179944</id>
	<title>Re:No outside help ?</title>
	<author>kjones692</author>
	<datestamp>1265041800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Are you a CMU student? I am. This is certainly not a university-wide policy, and I can't think of any class that I or my friends have taken that has this policy. Indeed, many classes (such as the legendarily difficult 15-251, Great Theoretical Ideas In Computer Science) practically require you to work in groups, and woe betide anyone who goes it alone.</p><p>Do you just take completely different classes than me or anyone here that I know? Or are you delusional? Or are you just talking out of your ass?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Are you a CMU student ?
I am .
This is certainly not a university-wide policy , and I ca n't think of any class that I or my friends have taken that has this policy .
Indeed , many classes ( such as the legendarily difficult 15-251 , Great Theoretical Ideas In Computer Science ) practically require you to work in groups , and woe betide anyone who goes it alone.Do you just take completely different classes than me or anyone here that I know ?
Or are you delusional ?
Or are you just talking out of your ass ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Are you a CMU student?
I am.
This is certainly not a university-wide policy, and I can't think of any class that I or my friends have taken that has this policy.
Indeed, many classes (such as the legendarily difficult 15-251, Great Theoretical Ideas In Computer Science) practically require you to work in groups, and woe betide anyone who goes it alone.Do you just take completely different classes than me or anyone here that I know?
Or are you delusional?
Or are you just talking out of your ass?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112740</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111888</id>
	<title>One word...</title>
	<author>chaotixx</author>
	<datestamp>1265984340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>...decompiler.</htmltext>
<tokenext>...decompiler .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...decompiler.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115194</id>
	<title>Re:Expelled</title>
	<author>maiden\_taiwan</author>
	<datestamp>1265998800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>It's not quite that easy (speaking as a long time CS teacher). For example, once I found that two of my students had turned in the identical assignment.  They did not know each other, so one clearly swiped the other's work.  Neither would admit wrongdoing, they both understood the code, and there were no timestamps to check.  With an expulsion policy, what do you do?  Either expel them both (not fair, you're punishing an innocent person) or break your own policy (looking inconsistent, which weakens the policy).

The hard part about dealing with cheating is the borderline cases.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's not quite that easy ( speaking as a long time CS teacher ) .
For example , once I found that two of my students had turned in the identical assignment .
They did not know each other , so one clearly swiped the other 's work .
Neither would admit wrongdoing , they both understood the code , and there were no timestamps to check .
With an expulsion policy , what do you do ?
Either expel them both ( not fair , you 're punishing an innocent person ) or break your own policy ( looking inconsistent , which weakens the policy ) .
The hard part about dealing with cheating is the borderline cases .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's not quite that easy (speaking as a long time CS teacher).
For example, once I found that two of my students had turned in the identical assignment.
They did not know each other, so one clearly swiped the other's work.
Neither would admit wrongdoing, they both understood the code, and there were no timestamps to check.
With an expulsion policy, what do you do?
Either expel them both (not fair, you're punishing an innocent person) or break your own policy (looking inconsistent, which weakens the policy).
The hard part about dealing with cheating is the borderline cases.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31122436</id>
	<title>Re:Very easy, and very easy to get caught</title>
	<author>davidgay</author>
	<datestamp>1265981340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>through MOSS (the canonical code plagiarism detector, hosted at [and perhaps developed at?] Stanford)</i>
<p>
Hint: it's hosted on its author's web page (surprise!), and the next-to-last link should make it clear where it was developed...
</p><p>
David Gay</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>through MOSS ( the canonical code plagiarism detector , hosted at [ and perhaps developed at ?
] Stanford ) Hint : it 's hosted on its author 's web page ( surprise !
) , and the next-to-last link should make it clear where it was developed.. . David Gay</tokentext>
<sentencetext>through MOSS (the canonical code plagiarism detector, hosted at [and perhaps developed at?
] Stanford)

Hint: it's hosted on its author's web page (surprise!
), and the next-to-last link should make it clear where it was developed...

David Gay</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113710</id>
	<title>Re:A ramble from the TAs view</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265993340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In hindsight, I can't see the point of grades in universities. Anything from a D to an A still graduates. It might as well just be pass/fail. I know that GPA is considered for graduate admissions, but should it be? Grades are terribly subjective and not indicative of future success. How much is undergraduate GPA weighed against GRE scores or works by the applicant that can be directly assessed by the graduate school? Grades should just go away in universities.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In hindsight , I ca n't see the point of grades in universities .
Anything from a D to an A still graduates .
It might as well just be pass/fail .
I know that GPA is considered for graduate admissions , but should it be ?
Grades are terribly subjective and not indicative of future success .
How much is undergraduate GPA weighed against GRE scores or works by the applicant that can be directly assessed by the graduate school ?
Grades should just go away in universities .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In hindsight, I can't see the point of grades in universities.
Anything from a D to an A still graduates.
It might as well just be pass/fail.
I know that GPA is considered for graduate admissions, but should it be?
Grades are terribly subjective and not indicative of future success.
How much is undergraduate GPA weighed against GRE scores or works by the applicant that can be directly assessed by the graduate school?
Grades should just go away in universities.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112094</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31164552</id>
	<title>Seriously?</title>
	<author>danwesnor</author>
	<datestamp>1266339720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>In my day cheating in any form == expulsion.  I can understand giving a second chance, but any student who is a repeat offender should be lucky to get a community college degree.</htmltext>
<tokenext>In my day cheating in any form = = expulsion .
I can understand giving a second chance , but any student who is a repeat offender should be lucky to get a community college degree .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In my day cheating in any form == expulsion.
I can understand giving a second chance, but any student who is a repeat offender should be lucky to get a community college degree.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968</id>
	<title>No outside help ?</title>
	<author>ccandreva</author>
	<datestamp>1265985000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I am wondering what exactly they are calling cheating here, since the code says they "will not plagiarize, copy work or get outside help."</p><p>Plagiarize and copy are obvious, but I never heard of asking for help on homework being cheating. How else does one learn ?<br>If you didn't get the concept in class, you are out of luck, that's it ?</p><p>I was in an Engineering program (Stevens Institute in Hoboken), and I would venture that at least half of homework was done in study groups, sometimes just to bounce idea off each other, sometimes as a collaborative group effort. This was part of the learning process.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I am wondering what exactly they are calling cheating here , since the code says they " will not plagiarize , copy work or get outside help .
" Plagiarize and copy are obvious , but I never heard of asking for help on homework being cheating .
How else does one learn ? If you did n't get the concept in class , you are out of luck , that 's it ? I was in an Engineering program ( Stevens Institute in Hoboken ) , and I would venture that at least half of homework was done in study groups , sometimes just to bounce idea off each other , sometimes as a collaborative group effort .
This was part of the learning process .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am wondering what exactly they are calling cheating here, since the code says they "will not plagiarize, copy work or get outside help.
"Plagiarize and copy are obvious, but I never heard of asking for help on homework being cheating.
How else does one learn ?If you didn't get the concept in class, you are out of luck, that's it ?I was in an Engineering program (Stevens Institute in Hoboken), and I would venture that at least half of homework was done in study groups, sometimes just to bounce idea off each other, sometimes as a collaborative group effort.
This was part of the learning process.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117102</id>
	<title>About conventions and other stuff</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266007020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So.... this is not about Counter Strike after all.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So.... this is not about Counter Strike after all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So.... this is not about Counter Strike after all.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31124534</id>
	<title>Re:Not sure about that strategy...</title>
	<author>kbielefe</author>
	<datestamp>1265998380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I agree.  I like the solution my data structures professor had better.  In that class, your final grade couldn't be higher than one letter grade above your average exam grade.  Essentially, exams were only weighted heavier for students with large disparities, presumably those more likely to be cheating on assignments, but there was still a fair bit of leeway for people who don't test well.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree .
I like the solution my data structures professor had better .
In that class , your final grade could n't be higher than one letter grade above your average exam grade .
Essentially , exams were only weighted heavier for students with large disparities , presumably those more likely to be cheating on assignments , but there was still a fair bit of leeway for people who do n't test well .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree.
I like the solution my data structures professor had better.
In that class, your final grade couldn't be higher than one letter grade above your average exam grade.
Essentially, exams were only weighted heavier for students with large disparities, presumably those more likely to be cheating on assignments, but there was still a fair bit of leeway for people who don't test well.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112118</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31120678</id>
	<title>Re:Half of the story.</title>
	<author>pclminion</author>
	<datestamp>1265973840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My senior year of CS I was taking some some electives to fill out my non-core academic requirements. One of them was a pretty cool course on atmospheric physics, chemistry, and pollution. We had a group paper to turn in at the end of the quarter, and I was in a group of 4. One guy offered to write the entire first draft while the rest of us dug up more references. We thought this was awesome, so we went off and did our thing for two weeks or so. We regrouped and he presented what he'd worked on. It was an incredibly detailed draft over 50 pages long, with FIGURES. Well, we thought that was amazing, slapped him on the back, and went to work incorporating some of our own material into the draft.</p><p>48 hours before the assignment was due, I was searching the web for some obscure term related to our report, and a web page appeared with some very familiar-looking text... In horror, I flipped through our final draft, entering phrase snippets, and I kept finding more and more evidence that the entire paper had been plagiarized from various web pages. I emailed the team and told them we needed to meet in half an hour. Then I emailed the professor and told him exactly what was happening. I said that I would attempt to rewrite the entire paper, and if it could not be rewritten in time, I requested to be removed from the group and that I would happily accept a grade of 0\% on the final report, as I didn't want my name attached to a report that was 100\% plagiarized. (Had that actually happened it would have jeopardized my graduation, but what else could I do? It was my own fault for not being more suspicious in the beginning.)</p><p>The rest of us pulled a 48-hour sprint and got the entire thing rewritten. We didn't bother to tell the guilty person that we'd found him out. We all got together to go over the final draft, and he was surprised and happy at what we'd done to it. Unfortunately, since the plagiarized copy was never turned in, and there was no proof except my honest word on the matter, the professor couldn't do much to the cheater, and we all received an A- on the report.</p><p>After that, I learned to only group with people I trust.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My senior year of CS I was taking some some electives to fill out my non-core academic requirements .
One of them was a pretty cool course on atmospheric physics , chemistry , and pollution .
We had a group paper to turn in at the end of the quarter , and I was in a group of 4 .
One guy offered to write the entire first draft while the rest of us dug up more references .
We thought this was awesome , so we went off and did our thing for two weeks or so .
We regrouped and he presented what he 'd worked on .
It was an incredibly detailed draft over 50 pages long , with FIGURES .
Well , we thought that was amazing , slapped him on the back , and went to work incorporating some of our own material into the draft.48 hours before the assignment was due , I was searching the web for some obscure term related to our report , and a web page appeared with some very familiar-looking text... In horror , I flipped through our final draft , entering phrase snippets , and I kept finding more and more evidence that the entire paper had been plagiarized from various web pages .
I emailed the team and told them we needed to meet in half an hour .
Then I emailed the professor and told him exactly what was happening .
I said that I would attempt to rewrite the entire paper , and if it could not be rewritten in time , I requested to be removed from the group and that I would happily accept a grade of 0 \ % on the final report , as I did n't want my name attached to a report that was 100 \ % plagiarized .
( Had that actually happened it would have jeopardized my graduation , but what else could I do ?
It was my own fault for not being more suspicious in the beginning .
) The rest of us pulled a 48-hour sprint and got the entire thing rewritten .
We did n't bother to tell the guilty person that we 'd found him out .
We all got together to go over the final draft , and he was surprised and happy at what we 'd done to it .
Unfortunately , since the plagiarized copy was never turned in , and there was no proof except my honest word on the matter , the professor could n't do much to the cheater , and we all received an A- on the report.After that , I learned to only group with people I trust .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My senior year of CS I was taking some some electives to fill out my non-core academic requirements.
One of them was a pretty cool course on atmospheric physics, chemistry, and pollution.
We had a group paper to turn in at the end of the quarter, and I was in a group of 4.
One guy offered to write the entire first draft while the rest of us dug up more references.
We thought this was awesome, so we went off and did our thing for two weeks or so.
We regrouped and he presented what he'd worked on.
It was an incredibly detailed draft over 50 pages long, with FIGURES.
Well, we thought that was amazing, slapped him on the back, and went to work incorporating some of our own material into the draft.48 hours before the assignment was due, I was searching the web for some obscure term related to our report, and a web page appeared with some very familiar-looking text... In horror, I flipped through our final draft, entering phrase snippets, and I kept finding more and more evidence that the entire paper had been plagiarized from various web pages.
I emailed the team and told them we needed to meet in half an hour.
Then I emailed the professor and told him exactly what was happening.
I said that I would attempt to rewrite the entire paper, and if it could not be rewritten in time, I requested to be removed from the group and that I would happily accept a grade of 0\% on the final report, as I didn't want my name attached to a report that was 100\% plagiarized.
(Had that actually happened it would have jeopardized my graduation, but what else could I do?
It was my own fault for not being more suspicious in the beginning.
)The rest of us pulled a 48-hour sprint and got the entire thing rewritten.
We didn't bother to tell the guilty person that we'd found him out.
We all got together to go over the final draft, and he was surprised and happy at what we'd done to it.
Unfortunately, since the plagiarized copy was never turned in, and there was no proof except my honest word on the matter, the professor couldn't do much to the cheater, and we all received an A- on the report.After that, I learned to only group with people I trust.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111928</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31129806</id>
	<title>Re:Very easy, and very easy to get caught</title>
	<author>ThinkingInBinary</author>
	<datestamp>1266054720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...just to clarify, our course policy said that student work was supposed to be done individually.  If students need help, they are supposed to come to office hours or email the staff, not ask a friend.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...just to clarify , our course policy said that student work was supposed to be done individually .
If students need help , they are supposed to come to office hours or email the staff , not ask a friend .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...just to clarify, our course policy said that student work was supposed to be done individually.
If students need help, they are supposed to come to office hours or email the staff, not ask a friend.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112732</id>
	<title>Re:No outside help ?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265989020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I guess the "outside help" thing is a wildcard statement to avoid students hiring other people to code for them. Yes, I've seen this happen.<br>As long as you know what the stuff you handed in does, why it does it, and where its problems might be (ie. you are capable of telling a coherent story about your work), that should be good enough.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I guess the " outside help " thing is a wildcard statement to avoid students hiring other people to code for them .
Yes , I 've seen this happen.As long as you know what the stuff you handed in does , why it does it , and where its problems might be ( ie .
you are capable of telling a coherent story about your work ) , that should be good enough .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I guess the "outside help" thing is a wildcard statement to avoid students hiring other people to code for them.
Yes, I've seen this happen.As long as you know what the stuff you handed in does, why it does it, and where its problems might be (ie.
you are capable of telling a coherent story about your work), that should be good enough.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112188</id>
	<title>are you marked as a cheater for reusing your code?</title>
	<author>Joe The Dragon</author>
	<datestamp>1265986200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>are you marked as a cheater for reusing your own code?<br>Under that coding checking system?<br>How does the code checker not flag common parts and it's up to the professor to know that and you just hope that some dumb TA or sub knows as well or you may be marked as well.</p><p>any ways pro codes reuse code and copy and paste others work all the time and most of the time there are no 1 man coding out there for a lot of software.</p><p>also some times part of the job is working off of some old code based and adding to it / hacking it to work with newer stuff.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>are you marked as a cheater for reusing your own code ? Under that coding checking system ? How does the code checker not flag common parts and it 's up to the professor to know that and you just hope that some dumb TA or sub knows as well or you may be marked as well.any ways pro codes reuse code and copy and paste others work all the time and most of the time there are no 1 man coding out there for a lot of software.also some times part of the job is working off of some old code based and adding to it / hacking it to work with newer stuff .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>are you marked as a cheater for reusing your own code?Under that coding checking system?How does the code checker not flag common parts and it's up to the professor to know that and you just hope that some dumb TA or sub knows as well or you may be marked as well.any ways pro codes reuse code and copy and paste others work all the time and most of the time there are no 1 man coding out there for a lot of software.also some times part of the job is working off of some old code based and adding to it / hacking it to work with newer stuff.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113402</id>
	<title>Be honest</title>
	<author>frenchbedroom</author>
	<datestamp>1265992140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I RTFA and I agree that a big incentive to cheat is when your project doesn't work. When you still can't find that nagging bug at 3 AM, cheating seems like a good option. But I think honesty is the better way. Once, I turned in a project that didn't work ; I had an oral exam a few days later to defend my code, and one the professor actually congratulated me on the code. Turns out he had just read the code and liked it, because I followed his specs to the letter and used all the OOP patterns that he taught in his course. The one bug that made it crash was a missing call to an ancestor's constructor, undetected by the compiler (this was in Turbo Pascal)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I RTFA and I agree that a big incentive to cheat is when your project does n't work .
When you still ca n't find that nagging bug at 3 AM , cheating seems like a good option .
But I think honesty is the better way .
Once , I turned in a project that did n't work ; I had an oral exam a few days later to defend my code , and one the professor actually congratulated me on the code .
Turns out he had just read the code and liked it , because I followed his specs to the letter and used all the OOP patterns that he taught in his course .
The one bug that made it crash was a missing call to an ancestor 's constructor , undetected by the compiler ( this was in Turbo Pascal )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I RTFA and I agree that a big incentive to cheat is when your project doesn't work.
When you still can't find that nagging bug at 3 AM, cheating seems like a good option.
But I think honesty is the better way.
Once, I turned in a project that didn't work ; I had an oral exam a few days later to defend my code, and one the professor actually congratulated me on the code.
Turns out he had just read the code and liked it, because I followed his specs to the letter and used all the OOP patterns that he taught in his course.
The one bug that made it crash was a missing call to an ancestor's constructor, undetected by the compiler (this was in Turbo Pascal)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112174</id>
	<title>Yeah, it's very easy to spot.</title>
	<author>Sowelu</author>
	<datestamp>1265986080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I TA'd for an Intro to Java course.  (Say what you will about Java being a crummy language to start with, or early classes being slow--our second-year-plus classes were brutal.)  For a fair chunk of the first quarter, programs were basically identical...but after the point when we WANTED you to write identical, correct code, cheating sticks out like a sore thumb.

I don't know the details of our cheating detection program, but it operated partway into the compilation step so it sees through superficial changes.  Change a comment?  Wouldn't matter, it wouldn't notice.  Change your variable names?  Same thing.  Declare your variables in a different order?  Yeah, it'll spot that too.  You have to actually start changing the program flow--in significant ways, no less!--before it stops tripping on your program.  And even then, it'll often flag similar programs as "hey, a human should check these out".

Cheating happens a lot more than you'd think in CS classes.  And in my department, at least...I know that we sent every last one of them to the Dean.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I TA 'd for an Intro to Java course .
( Say what you will about Java being a crummy language to start with , or early classes being slow--our second-year-plus classes were brutal .
) For a fair chunk of the first quarter , programs were basically identical...but after the point when we WANTED you to write identical , correct code , cheating sticks out like a sore thumb .
I do n't know the details of our cheating detection program , but it operated partway into the compilation step so it sees through superficial changes .
Change a comment ?
Would n't matter , it would n't notice .
Change your variable names ?
Same thing .
Declare your variables in a different order ?
Yeah , it 'll spot that too .
You have to actually start changing the program flow--in significant ways , no less ! --before it stops tripping on your program .
And even then , it 'll often flag similar programs as " hey , a human should check these out " .
Cheating happens a lot more than you 'd think in CS classes .
And in my department , at least...I know that we sent every last one of them to the Dean .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I TA'd for an Intro to Java course.
(Say what you will about Java being a crummy language to start with, or early classes being slow--our second-year-plus classes were brutal.
)  For a fair chunk of the first quarter, programs were basically identical...but after the point when we WANTED you to write identical, correct code, cheating sticks out like a sore thumb.
I don't know the details of our cheating detection program, but it operated partway into the compilation step so it sees through superficial changes.
Change a comment?
Wouldn't matter, it wouldn't notice.
Change your variable names?
Same thing.
Declare your variables in a different order?
Yeah, it'll spot that too.
You have to actually start changing the program flow--in significant ways, no less!--before it stops tripping on your program.
And even then, it'll often flag similar programs as "hey, a human should check these out".
Cheating happens a lot more than you'd think in CS classes.
And in my department, at least...I know that we sent every last one of them to the Dean.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31120186</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>geminidomino</author>
	<datestamp>1265972340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p><div class="quote"><p>Besides, how many ways can you write a QuickSort?</p></div><p>At least two.<br>There is a nice trick that helps you save memory. You don't have to use it though, but then you use a bit more memory.</p></div><p>Three.</p><p>Modifying the partition/pivot scheme can change the WCRT to THETA(n^2) but result in a stable (in the sorting sense, not in the "this thing never crashes" sense) sort.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Besides , how many ways can you write a QuickSort ? At least two.There is a nice trick that helps you save memory .
You do n't have to use it though , but then you use a bit more memory.Three.Modifying the partition/pivot scheme can change the WCRT to THETA ( n ^ 2 ) but result in a stable ( in the sorting sense , not in the " this thing never crashes " sense ) sort .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Besides, how many ways can you write a QuickSort?At least two.There is a nice trick that helps you save memory.
You don't have to use it though, but then you use a bit more memory.Three.Modifying the partition/pivot scheme can change the WCRT to THETA(n^2) but result in a stable (in the sorting sense, not in the "this thing never crashes" sense) sort.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112078</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115594</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>3.1415926535</author>
	<datestamp>1266000480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah, totally.  I've come to the conclusion that the best programmers are the ones who delete the most code (while improving functionality, obviously).  The only code that clearly has no bugs is code that doesn't exist.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , totally .
I 've come to the conclusion that the best programmers are the ones who delete the most code ( while improving functionality , obviously ) .
The only code that clearly has no bugs is code that does n't exist .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, totally.
I've come to the conclusion that the best programmers are the ones who delete the most code (while improving functionality, obviously).
The only code that clearly has no bugs is code that doesn't exist.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112258</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31129748</id>
	<title>Re:Very easy, and very easy to get caught</title>
	<author>ThinkingInBinary</author>
	<datestamp>1266054360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Teamwork only works if all the team members can contribute.  These labs are where they individually learn the skills they need.  If we let them work together, some of them won't end up actually learning the material because their partner helped them through it, and then they'll pass the class when they don't know the material.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Teamwork only works if all the team members can contribute .
These labs are where they individually learn the skills they need .
If we let them work together , some of them wo n't end up actually learning the material because their partner helped them through it , and then they 'll pass the class when they do n't know the material .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Teamwork only works if all the team members can contribute.
These labs are where they individually learn the skills they need.
If we let them work together, some of them won't end up actually learning the material because their partner helped them through it, and then they'll pass the class when they don't know the material.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113006</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113156</id>
	<title>Re:No outside help ?</title>
	<author>Atraxen</author>
	<datestamp>1265991000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That would be because different educational activities can have different goals.  I give analytical chemistry exams that are supposed to be somewhat collaborative, to provide an opportunity to learn (something called a "formative assessment") - this gives the students peer-guided instruction, and gives me feedback about where they stand in the process.</p><p>But, at some point I'll need to know how the individuals are getting it.  These assessments/assignments may still be a formative assessment, depending on how I am using it as the instructor.  Eventually, I have to sort the students based on achievement (or maybe I don't - this isn't the place for that debate, but I think we can all agree it's the most common practice) - this would be a "summative assessment".</p><p>And your example of homework is relevant - profs will often not care about whether it's done solo or in groups.  But, when a \_project\_ contains an explicit requirement for solo work, it's (supposed to be) because the instructor has a purpose - and how often do prof.s explain to their classes their summative/formative intent?  These intentions may be opaque to the student.</p><p>In reality, most profs are pretty savvy about how they work (even if you don't see it) and are using a mix of summative and formative goals in their grading and assignments.  Discussions on<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. about cheating and education have lots of people coming out of the woodwork to say, "I think this educational approach is dumb, so I did what I wanted instead - and I say it's more authentic!!1!", or some variant of this.  I love the hubris involved in assuming that not only does the student have a better awareness of the material and the 'realpolitik' of the eventual career, but that they know education better than the prof (and that the prof's goals are necessarily transparent).  Or that the classroom is only supposed to emulate the daily job - that students should learn only to consume knowledge and approaches, not to originate them ("When you get into a corporate environment, "cheating" is actually preferred. No reason to re-invent the wheel when there is existing code that gets the job done." - <a href="http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1547360&amp;cid=31111942" title="slashdot.org">http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1547360&amp;cid=31111942</a> [slashdot.org]).  And yet, how does the student produce new work unless taught how?  That's one of the curricular decisions the instructor makes - am I pursuing the 'originator' or 'realpolitik-daily' approach as my learning goal today?</p><p>Those wearing the instructor-hat were a student for a long time, and (should) have an awareness of the benefits of group work.  But when students simply declare that they've decided to ignore rules and requirements because they've chosen their own goals, in my experience they're either:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; so self-aware in their learning that they'll succeed no matter what;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; or they're being lazy or self-delusional and using their own notions of 'what good learning is' to justify it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That would be because different educational activities can have different goals .
I give analytical chemistry exams that are supposed to be somewhat collaborative , to provide an opportunity to learn ( something called a " formative assessment " ) - this gives the students peer-guided instruction , and gives me feedback about where they stand in the process.But , at some point I 'll need to know how the individuals are getting it .
These assessments/assignments may still be a formative assessment , depending on how I am using it as the instructor .
Eventually , I have to sort the students based on achievement ( or maybe I do n't - this is n't the place for that debate , but I think we can all agree it 's the most common practice ) - this would be a " summative assessment " .And your example of homework is relevant - profs will often not care about whether it 's done solo or in groups .
But , when a \ _project \ _ contains an explicit requirement for solo work , it 's ( supposed to be ) because the instructor has a purpose - and how often do prof.s explain to their classes their summative/formative intent ?
These intentions may be opaque to the student.In reality , most profs are pretty savvy about how they work ( even if you do n't see it ) and are using a mix of summative and formative goals in their grading and assignments .
Discussions on / .
about cheating and education have lots of people coming out of the woodwork to say , " I think this educational approach is dumb , so I did what I wanted instead - and I say it 's more authentic ! ! 1 !
" , or some variant of this .
I love the hubris involved in assuming that not only does the student have a better awareness of the material and the 'realpolitik ' of the eventual career , but that they know education better than the prof ( and that the prof 's goals are necessarily transparent ) .
Or that the classroom is only supposed to emulate the daily job - that students should learn only to consume knowledge and approaches , not to originate them ( " When you get into a corporate environment , " cheating " is actually preferred .
No reason to re-invent the wheel when there is existing code that gets the job done .
" - http : //news.slashdot.org/comments.pl ? sid = 1547360&amp;cid = 31111942 [ slashdot.org ] ) .
And yet , how does the student produce new work unless taught how ?
That 's one of the curricular decisions the instructor makes - am I pursuing the 'originator ' or 'realpolitik-daily ' approach as my learning goal today ? Those wearing the instructor-hat were a student for a long time , and ( should ) have an awareness of the benefits of group work .
But when students simply declare that they 've decided to ignore rules and requirements because they 've chosen their own goals , in my experience they 're either :     so self-aware in their learning that they 'll succeed no matter what ;     or they 're being lazy or self-delusional and using their own notions of 'what good learning is ' to justify it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That would be because different educational activities can have different goals.
I give analytical chemistry exams that are supposed to be somewhat collaborative, to provide an opportunity to learn (something called a "formative assessment") - this gives the students peer-guided instruction, and gives me feedback about where they stand in the process.But, at some point I'll need to know how the individuals are getting it.
These assessments/assignments may still be a formative assessment, depending on how I am using it as the instructor.
Eventually, I have to sort the students based on achievement (or maybe I don't - this isn't the place for that debate, but I think we can all agree it's the most common practice) - this would be a "summative assessment".And your example of homework is relevant - profs will often not care about whether it's done solo or in groups.
But, when a \_project\_ contains an explicit requirement for solo work, it's (supposed to be) because the instructor has a purpose - and how often do prof.s explain to their classes their summative/formative intent?
These intentions may be opaque to the student.In reality, most profs are pretty savvy about how they work (even if you don't see it) and are using a mix of summative and formative goals in their grading and assignments.
Discussions on /.
about cheating and education have lots of people coming out of the woodwork to say, "I think this educational approach is dumb, so I did what I wanted instead - and I say it's more authentic!!1!
", or some variant of this.
I love the hubris involved in assuming that not only does the student have a better awareness of the material and the 'realpolitik' of the eventual career, but that they know education better than the prof (and that the prof's goals are necessarily transparent).
Or that the classroom is only supposed to emulate the daily job - that students should learn only to consume knowledge and approaches, not to originate them ("When you get into a corporate environment, "cheating" is actually preferred.
No reason to re-invent the wheel when there is existing code that gets the job done.
" - http://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1547360&amp;cid=31111942 [slashdot.org]).
And yet, how does the student produce new work unless taught how?
That's one of the curricular decisions the instructor makes - am I pursuing the 'originator' or 'realpolitik-daily' approach as my learning goal today?Those wearing the instructor-hat were a student for a long time, and (should) have an awareness of the benefits of group work.
But when students simply declare that they've decided to ignore rules and requirements because they've chosen their own goals, in my experience they're either:
    so self-aware in their learning that they'll succeed no matter what;
    or they're being lazy or self-delusional and using their own notions of 'what good learning is' to justify it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31124374</id>
	<title>Re:Cheating - remove the incentive to cheat instea</title>
	<author>masmullin</author>
	<datestamp>1265996400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>interesting read... but please use paragraphs and whitespace next time!  my poor eyes.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>interesting read... but please use paragraphs and whitespace next time !
my poor eyes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>interesting read... but please use paragraphs and whitespace next time!
my poor eyes.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112272</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31116836</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>DamnStupidElf</author>
	<datestamp>1266005760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Technically, there are an infinite number of ways to write quicksort.  Any arbitrary function can be used to choose a pivot element before partitioning the rest of the elements.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Technically , there are an infinite number of ways to write quicksort .
Any arbitrary function can be used to choose a pivot element before partitioning the rest of the elements .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Technically, there are an infinite number of ways to write quicksort.
Any arbitrary function can be used to choose a pivot element before partitioning the rest of the elements.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112078</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31120160</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>mkiwi</author>
	<datestamp>1265972280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was a TA at a Major State University teaching sophomores Java.  We actually had an incident where the \_exact\_ same homework was submitted to our WebCT between two people.  One student had actually written the program had put his name in the comments.  The other was a little... shall we say... lazy?</p><p>So we go to correct these homeworks, and the student who had cheated <b>did not bother to change the original student's name</b> in the comments.  You could have MD5'd the files and they'd be exactly the same.  The prof was nice about it and gave the cheater 0/2 points for the assignment, plus an apology letter to the TA.  I would have expelled the little bastard.  Then again, I was rather heartless that semester...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was a TA at a Major State University teaching sophomores Java .
We actually had an incident where the \ _exact \ _ same homework was submitted to our WebCT between two people .
One student had actually written the program had put his name in the comments .
The other was a little... shall we say... lazy ? So we go to correct these homeworks , and the student who had cheated did not bother to change the original student 's name in the comments .
You could have MD5 'd the files and they 'd be exactly the same .
The prof was nice about it and gave the cheater 0/2 points for the assignment , plus an apology letter to the TA .
I would have expelled the little bastard .
Then again , I was rather heartless that semester.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was a TA at a Major State University teaching sophomores Java.
We actually had an incident where the \_exact\_ same homework was submitted to our WebCT between two people.
One student had actually written the program had put his name in the comments.
The other was a little... shall we say... lazy?So we go to correct these homeworks, and the student who had cheated did not bother to change the original student's name in the comments.
You could have MD5'd the files and they'd be exactly the same.
The prof was nice about it and gave the cheater 0/2 points for the assignment, plus an apology letter to the TA.
I would have expelled the little bastard.
Then again, I was rather heartless that semester...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112868</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112740</id>
	<title>Re:No outside help ?</title>
	<author>AlexCorn</author>
	<datestamp>1265989020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>That is the policy at Carnegie Mellon. The first time a student is caught cheating, they lose their financial aid. The second time, they get expelled. Discussing homework counts as cheating and because of the consequences, everybody is too paranoid to even discuss class material that might be related to homework. Everyone hates it but the administration doesn't care because the incidences of cheating have gone way down since introducing the policy.
<br>
<br>
Infuriating.</htmltext>
<tokenext>That is the policy at Carnegie Mellon .
The first time a student is caught cheating , they lose their financial aid .
The second time , they get expelled .
Discussing homework counts as cheating and because of the consequences , everybody is too paranoid to even discuss class material that might be related to homework .
Everyone hates it but the administration does n't care because the incidences of cheating have gone way down since introducing the policy .
Infuriating .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That is the policy at Carnegie Mellon.
The first time a student is caught cheating, they lose their financial aid.
The second time, they get expelled.
Discussing homework counts as cheating and because of the consequences, everybody is too paranoid to even discuss class material that might be related to homework.
Everyone hates it but the administration doesn't care because the incidences of cheating have gone way down since introducing the policy.
Infuriating.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112012</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265985240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>How is a person able to "add some mods" if he's spent four years cribbing everything and never coded anything himself?</htmltext>
<tokenext>How is a person able to " add some mods " if he 's spent four years cribbing everything and never coded anything himself ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How is a person able to "add some mods" if he's spent four years cribbing everything and never coded anything himself?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31124168</id>
	<title>Re:Expelled</title>
	<author>masmullin</author>
	<datestamp>1265994300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I had a prof for a final semester class who put it in no uncertain terms that he looked forward to people cheating.  He said he enjoyed getting people kicked out of school after being so close to finishing their degree.  He said he did it a few years ago and it really gave him a thrill.</p><p>He was a really cool prof, but he hated cheating and dishonesty.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I had a prof for a final semester class who put it in no uncertain terms that he looked forward to people cheating .
He said he enjoyed getting people kicked out of school after being so close to finishing their degree .
He said he did it a few years ago and it really gave him a thrill.He was a really cool prof , but he hated cheating and dishonesty .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I had a prof for a final semester class who put it in no uncertain terms that he looked forward to people cheating.
He said he enjoyed getting people kicked out of school after being so close to finishing their degree.
He said he did it a few years ago and it really gave him a thrill.He was a really cool prof, but he hated cheating and dishonesty.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112682</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113166</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>TheRaven64</author>
	<datestamp>1265991120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Better, teach code reuse.  Provide some libraries that the students are allowed to use in the coursework.  Some of the code in them will be irrelevant, some will have bugs, and some will solve some of the coursework problems.  A passing grade will implement everything, a good grade will call the bits of the library when they work and comment saying why other bits were not used (i.e. because they contained bugs) and a top grade will contain a patch to fix the library.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Better , teach code reuse .
Provide some libraries that the students are allowed to use in the coursework .
Some of the code in them will be irrelevant , some will have bugs , and some will solve some of the coursework problems .
A passing grade will implement everything , a good grade will call the bits of the library when they work and comment saying why other bits were not used ( i.e .
because they contained bugs ) and a top grade will contain a patch to fix the library .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Better, teach code reuse.
Provide some libraries that the students are allowed to use in the coursework.
Some of the code in them will be irrelevant, some will have bugs, and some will solve some of the coursework problems.
A passing grade will implement everything, a good grade will call the bits of the library when they work and comment saying why other bits were not used (i.e.
because they contained bugs) and a top grade will contain a patch to fix the library.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112428</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31120330</id>
	<title>Re:Expelled</title>
	<author>DamnStupidElf</author>
	<datestamp>1265972820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Why not just give them each a new assignment to replace the grade for the suspect work?  In cases where there is no hard evidence of cheating, I don't think it's inappropriate to consider it an accident.  The entropy for well written code designed to solve a simple assignment is probably quite low, and I wouldn't be surprised to find that on occasion two people turn in exactly the same code.  How many ways are there to write a straightforward K&amp;R "Hello, World!" program in C for instance?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Why not just give them each a new assignment to replace the grade for the suspect work ?
In cases where there is no hard evidence of cheating , I do n't think it 's inappropriate to consider it an accident .
The entropy for well written code designed to solve a simple assignment is probably quite low , and I would n't be surprised to find that on occasion two people turn in exactly the same code .
How many ways are there to write a straightforward K&amp;R " Hello , World !
" program in C for instance ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why not just give them each a new assignment to replace the grade for the suspect work?
In cases where there is no hard evidence of cheating, I don't think it's inappropriate to consider it an accident.
The entropy for well written code designed to solve a simple assignment is probably quite low, and I wouldn't be surprised to find that on occasion two people turn in exactly the same code.
How many ways are there to write a straightforward K&amp;R "Hello, World!
" program in C for instance?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115194</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112856</id>
	<title>Re:No outside help ?</title>
	<author>martyros</author>
	<datestamp>1265989500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Plagiarize and copy are obvious, but I never heard of asking for help on homework being cheating. How else does one learn ?
If you didn't get the concept in class, you are out of luck, that's it ?</p></div></blockquote><p>Yeah, my first 2 years I did a lot of problem sets working with other people.  It was really working *with*: we all tried the problem on our own, and then talked about things if/when we got stuck, and compared answers.  I was surprised when, in my 3rd year, I suggested getting together and doing the same and the person gave me a funny look and said, "Well, that's cheating isn't it?"  We all knew that the problem sets weren't going to be as big in our grade as the exams, where we'd be totally on our own, so everyone was really motivated to actually learn the material.
</p><p>But some of my friends (in other disciplines) would get together and "share out" problem: I'll do 1-2, you do 3-4, and he'll do 5-6, then we'll copy each other's answers.  Obviously not the same thing.
</p><p>At my school, the statement we signed at each exam was "I have neither given nor received <i>unauthorized</i> aid, nor have I concealed any violations of the honor code." (Emphasis mine.)  The "unauthorized" was key: some teachers authorized books, notes, and papers from class; one even authorized "internet connections" (though I assume he meant web pages, not IM).
</p><p>The nice thing about accepting real computer programs is that it's very easy to 1) change the definition sufficiently year-to-year so that last year's solution won't work out of the box, and 2) it's easy to run analysis on the programs to find similarities between students' submissions.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Plagiarize and copy are obvious , but I never heard of asking for help on homework being cheating .
How else does one learn ?
If you did n't get the concept in class , you are out of luck , that 's it ? Yeah , my first 2 years I did a lot of problem sets working with other people .
It was really working * with * : we all tried the problem on our own , and then talked about things if/when we got stuck , and compared answers .
I was surprised when , in my 3rd year , I suggested getting together and doing the same and the person gave me a funny look and said , " Well , that 's cheating is n't it ?
" We all knew that the problem sets were n't going to be as big in our grade as the exams , where we 'd be totally on our own , so everyone was really motivated to actually learn the material .
But some of my friends ( in other disciplines ) would get together and " share out " problem : I 'll do 1-2 , you do 3-4 , and he 'll do 5-6 , then we 'll copy each other 's answers .
Obviously not the same thing .
At my school , the statement we signed at each exam was " I have neither given nor received unauthorized aid , nor have I concealed any violations of the honor code .
" ( Emphasis mine .
) The " unauthorized " was key : some teachers authorized books , notes , and papers from class ; one even authorized " internet connections " ( though I assume he meant web pages , not IM ) .
The nice thing about accepting real computer programs is that it 's very easy to 1 ) change the definition sufficiently year-to-year so that last year 's solution wo n't work out of the box , and 2 ) it 's easy to run analysis on the programs to find similarities between students ' submissions .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Plagiarize and copy are obvious, but I never heard of asking for help on homework being cheating.
How else does one learn ?
If you didn't get the concept in class, you are out of luck, that's it ?Yeah, my first 2 years I did a lot of problem sets working with other people.
It was really working *with*: we all tried the problem on our own, and then talked about things if/when we got stuck, and compared answers.
I was surprised when, in my 3rd year, I suggested getting together and doing the same and the person gave me a funny look and said, "Well, that's cheating isn't it?
"  We all knew that the problem sets weren't going to be as big in our grade as the exams, where we'd be totally on our own, so everyone was really motivated to actually learn the material.
But some of my friends (in other disciplines) would get together and "share out" problem: I'll do 1-2, you do 3-4, and he'll do 5-6, then we'll copy each other's answers.
Obviously not the same thing.
At my school, the statement we signed at each exam was "I have neither given nor received unauthorized aid, nor have I concealed any violations of the honor code.
" (Emphasis mine.
)  The "unauthorized" was key: some teachers authorized books, notes, and papers from class; one even authorized "internet connections" (though I assume he meant web pages, not IM).
The nice thing about accepting real computer programs is that it's very easy to 1) change the definition sufficiently year-to-year so that last year's solution won't work out of the box, and 2) it's easy to run analysis on the programs to find similarities between students' submissions.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117460</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>Schadrach</author>
	<datestamp>1266008340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hehe.  I got some grades based on that on a few occasions.  I got a reputation as a bit of a slacker and a bit of a procrastinator but someone who'd always get it done before the deadline, even if it was a couple thousand lines and due tomorrow...</p><p>I once had a calc professor who docked me points because she didn't see how I got from one step to another in a problem.  I actually turned around and submitted a proof demonstrating that the one step was always true and saved several intermediary stes resolving the problem the "normal" way and she restored full credit for it.  Same professor once offered bonus points on the next test for anyone who solved the indefinite integral of sqrt(tan(x)) dx just to see how people in 2nd semester calculus would try to tackle it...</p><p>OTOH, I also had one professor who *never* gave a perfect score on a test.  He absolutely refused.  He once gave me a 97/100 on a test for using an abbreviation because he couldn't find anything else wrong.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hehe .
I got some grades based on that on a few occasions .
I got a reputation as a bit of a slacker and a bit of a procrastinator but someone who 'd always get it done before the deadline , even if it was a couple thousand lines and due tomorrow...I once had a calc professor who docked me points because she did n't see how I got from one step to another in a problem .
I actually turned around and submitted a proof demonstrating that the one step was always true and saved several intermediary stes resolving the problem the " normal " way and she restored full credit for it .
Same professor once offered bonus points on the next test for anyone who solved the indefinite integral of sqrt ( tan ( x ) ) dx just to see how people in 2nd semester calculus would try to tackle it...OTOH , I also had one professor who * never * gave a perfect score on a test .
He absolutely refused .
He once gave me a 97/100 on a test for using an abbreviation because he could n't find anything else wrong .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hehe.
I got some grades based on that on a few occasions.
I got a reputation as a bit of a slacker and a bit of a procrastinator but someone who'd always get it done before the deadline, even if it was a couple thousand lines and due tomorrow...I once had a calc professor who docked me points because she didn't see how I got from one step to another in a problem.
I actually turned around and submitted a proof demonstrating that the one step was always true and saved several intermediary stes resolving the problem the "normal" way and she restored full credit for it.
Same professor once offered bonus points on the next test for anyone who solved the indefinite integral of sqrt(tan(x)) dx just to see how people in 2nd semester calculus would try to tackle it...OTOH, I also had one professor who *never* gave a perfect score on a test.
He absolutely refused.
He once gave me a 97/100 on a test for using an abbreviation because he couldn't find anything else wrong.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113124</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113436</id>
	<title>Re:Very easy, and very easy to get caught</title>
	<author>D Ninja</author>
	<datestamp>1265992260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We had something similar at my university as well.  The line for line copying is understandable - cheating is easy to spot then.  But, I was always concerned with the "copied structure."  With a large enough class (or classes as the case for intro CS class would be) and a simple enough problem, structures should typically look very similar.  I wonder how programs like MOSS account for this.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We had something similar at my university as well .
The line for line copying is understandable - cheating is easy to spot then .
But , I was always concerned with the " copied structure .
" With a large enough class ( or classes as the case for intro CS class would be ) and a simple enough problem , structures should typically look very similar .
I wonder how programs like MOSS account for this .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We had something similar at my university as well.
The line for line copying is understandable - cheating is easy to spot then.
But, I was always concerned with the "copied structure.
"  With a large enough class (or classes as the case for intro CS class would be) and a simple enough problem, structures should typically look very similar.
I wonder how programs like MOSS account for this.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112842</id>
	<title>Re:Very easy, and very easy to get caught</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265989440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I am a CS TA also, I I can honestly say that I have caught people cheating in every single class for which I have graded homework.  I recently watched the movie "Stand and Deliver" and I was a little bit disturbed by how self righteous the students were after being suspected of wrongdoing.  Obviously people don't realize how big a problem cheating really is.  The percentage of cheaters is staggering, suggesting that most of them have learned how to get away with it.  I have even had the same students cheat in different courses!  I think it is like a numbers game for them where they weigh the risks of getting caught.  Some professors take off points, while others just do nothing.  At least one professor who did nothing had preemptively made the final worth 80\% of the grade.  Needless to say there ended up being a ton of obvious cheating in his class.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I am a CS TA also , I I can honestly say that I have caught people cheating in every single class for which I have graded homework .
I recently watched the movie " Stand and Deliver " and I was a little bit disturbed by how self righteous the students were after being suspected of wrongdoing .
Obviously people do n't realize how big a problem cheating really is .
The percentage of cheaters is staggering , suggesting that most of them have learned how to get away with it .
I have even had the same students cheat in different courses !
I think it is like a numbers game for them where they weigh the risks of getting caught .
Some professors take off points , while others just do nothing .
At least one professor who did nothing had preemptively made the final worth 80 \ % of the grade .
Needless to say there ended up being a ton of obvious cheating in his class .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am a CS TA also, I I can honestly say that I have caught people cheating in every single class for which I have graded homework.
I recently watched the movie "Stand and Deliver" and I was a little bit disturbed by how self righteous the students were after being suspected of wrongdoing.
Obviously people don't realize how big a problem cheating really is.
The percentage of cheaters is staggering, suggesting that most of them have learned how to get away with it.
I have even had the same students cheat in different courses!
I think it is like a numbers game for them where they weigh the risks of getting caught.
Some professors take off points, while others just do nothing.
At least one professor who did nothing had preemptively made the final worth 80\% of the grade.
Needless to say there ended up being a ton of obvious cheating in his class.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111986</id>
	<title>Like... wall hacks?</title>
	<author>Arancaytar</author>
	<datestamp>1265985060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Oh, wait.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Oh , wait .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Oh, wait.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111916</id>
	<title>Cheating in CS?</title>
	<author>Lord Lode</author>
	<datestamp>1265984580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wall hacks and aim bots, that's how...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Wall hacks and aim bots , that 's how.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wall hacks and aim bots, that's how...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112870</id>
	<title>Re:Very easy, and very easy to get caught</title>
	<author>jayme0227</author>
	<datestamp>1265989560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have no love for cheaters, but I think there is entirely too much focus on grades in schooling.  Who cares if the cheater got a good grade if he worked with his friend? In a university environment, odds are that students are paying for their education. If they want to waste their money, why not let them? When you catch a cheater, just give him a 0, mark it on his transcript, and move on.</p><p>If you are truly focused on helping your students get the most out of their education, what you should be concerned about is whether or not he learned the material. To me, the best solution would be to have a cheater do a unique assignment in a lab with an authority figure present. This way you have an effective method for both punishing him and ensuring that he learns the material.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have no love for cheaters , but I think there is entirely too much focus on grades in schooling .
Who cares if the cheater got a good grade if he worked with his friend ?
In a university environment , odds are that students are paying for their education .
If they want to waste their money , why not let them ?
When you catch a cheater , just give him a 0 , mark it on his transcript , and move on.If you are truly focused on helping your students get the most out of their education , what you should be concerned about is whether or not he learned the material .
To me , the best solution would be to have a cheater do a unique assignment in a lab with an authority figure present .
This way you have an effective method for both punishing him and ensuring that he learns the material .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have no love for cheaters, but I think there is entirely too much focus on grades in schooling.
Who cares if the cheater got a good grade if he worked with his friend?
In a university environment, odds are that students are paying for their education.
If they want to waste their money, why not let them?
When you catch a cheater, just give him a 0, mark it on his transcript, and move on.If you are truly focused on helping your students get the most out of their education, what you should be concerned about is whether or not he learned the material.
To me, the best solution would be to have a cheater do a unique assignment in a lab with an authority figure present.
This way you have an effective method for both punishing him and ensuring that he learns the material.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113244</id>
	<title>Re:A ramble from the TAs view</title>
	<author>grokcode</author>
	<datestamp>1265991420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Sounds like maybe he wasn't getting the one-on-one help and extra support teaching staff should be giving him. Just a thought.</p></div><p>Bullshit. This is a class in a top university with a fairly well ranked CS department.  If he needed help he could have hired a tutor or went to see the prof or TA during office hours.  No one is under obligation to seek him out and give him special attention - all that does is waste time on people with no initiative to understand the material, and degrade the quality of the class for everyone else.  If he can't cut it he needs to change majors or switch universities.</p><p>I graduated from a top ranked CS program and the work was <i>brutal</i>, but that how I learned and I wouldn't have had it any other way.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Sounds like maybe he was n't getting the one-on-one help and extra support teaching staff should be giving him .
Just a thought.Bullshit .
This is a class in a top university with a fairly well ranked CS department .
If he needed help he could have hired a tutor or went to see the prof or TA during office hours .
No one is under obligation to seek him out and give him special attention - all that does is waste time on people with no initiative to understand the material , and degrade the quality of the class for everyone else .
If he ca n't cut it he needs to change majors or switch universities.I graduated from a top ranked CS program and the work was brutal , but that how I learned and I would n't have had it any other way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sounds like maybe he wasn't getting the one-on-one help and extra support teaching staff should be giving him.
Just a thought.Bullshit.
This is a class in a top university with a fairly well ranked CS department.
If he needed help he could have hired a tutor or went to see the prof or TA during office hours.
No one is under obligation to seek him out and give him special attention - all that does is waste time on people with no initiative to understand the material, and degrade the quality of the class for everyone else.
If he can't cut it he needs to change majors or switch universities.I graduated from a top ranked CS program and the work was brutal, but that how I learned and I wouldn't have had it any other way.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112094</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114892</id>
	<title>Re:Cheating is laziness...</title>
	<author>QuzarDC</author>
	<datestamp>1265997600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>An interesting reversal to 'cheating is due to teacher's laziness'. At Carnegie Mellon University all the CS courses are original to the school (although reused year to year), The problem is many schools (Stanford included) will copy the same course. This makes it easy for any student to find the page of a course at another school where they didn't take down old material and snag answers from it.

One of my professors sent half of the first class lecture on what he considered cheating and what wouldn't be tolerated, including searching on google for help.  On the day the first assignment was due, many were snickering at those who spent a day working out the answers (great theoretical ideas in computer sciece) and a list of names was put up on a big projector labelled 'cheaters'. The professor had created a site a few weeks prior with answers to one of the questions and guaranteed it would show up as top google result. He collected IPs, which if you used a school internet connection are easily tracable, even for students. All those students were given no credit and warned against cheating in the future.</htmltext>
<tokenext>An interesting reversal to 'cheating is due to teacher 's laziness' .
At Carnegie Mellon University all the CS courses are original to the school ( although reused year to year ) , The problem is many schools ( Stanford included ) will copy the same course .
This makes it easy for any student to find the page of a course at another school where they did n't take down old material and snag answers from it .
One of my professors sent half of the first class lecture on what he considered cheating and what would n't be tolerated , including searching on google for help .
On the day the first assignment was due , many were snickering at those who spent a day working out the answers ( great theoretical ideas in computer sciece ) and a list of names was put up on a big projector labelled 'cheaters' .
The professor had created a site a few weeks prior with answers to one of the questions and guaranteed it would show up as top google result .
He collected IPs , which if you used a school internet connection are easily tracable , even for students .
All those students were given no credit and warned against cheating in the future .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>An interesting reversal to 'cheating is due to teacher's laziness'.
At Carnegie Mellon University all the CS courses are original to the school (although reused year to year), The problem is many schools (Stanford included) will copy the same course.
This makes it easy for any student to find the page of a course at another school where they didn't take down old material and snag answers from it.
One of my professors sent half of the first class lecture on what he considered cheating and what wouldn't be tolerated, including searching on google for help.
On the day the first assignment was due, many were snickering at those who spent a day working out the answers (great theoretical ideas in computer sciece) and a list of names was put up on a big projector labelled 'cheaters'.
The professor had created a site a few weeks prior with answers to one of the questions and guaranteed it would show up as top google result.
He collected IPs, which if you used a school internet connection are easily tracable, even for students.
All those students were given no credit and warned against cheating in the future.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111934</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112022</id>
	<title>So funny..</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265985300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why people would even try cheating in a CS class at a decent university is a mystery to me.  At my school in Cambridge, Mass. (not MIT, the other one), every line of code turned in for intro CS classes was run through a code analysis and similarity detection system.  The system was very good, I am not aware of any false positives, and it would be more work to re-engineer somebody else's code to avoid detection than to just write it from scratch.</p><p>This system was in place somewhere in the early to mid 1990s (I was a freshman in 1996, and it had been used for at least a year).  This was explained to everybody the first day of each of the 2 intro CS classes.  There were several people in my freshman class in '96 who were expelled as a result of being caught cheating in CS 50.  Oops.  Anyway, this is now old technology - if you don't know it exists or don't believe it's so easy to fingerprint code, you are an idiot.</p><p>Furthermore, if you were the "cheatee" and there was reason to suspect you willingly provided the cheater with your code to copy, you would both be subject to expulsion.  Ouch.</p><p>If you are too stupid to realize that when you hand in plagiarized code, you aren't taking a *risk* that you will be caught, you are engaging in the certainty that you will be caught, then you don't deserve to be at a university of this caliber.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why people would even try cheating in a CS class at a decent university is a mystery to me .
At my school in Cambridge , Mass .
( not MIT , the other one ) , every line of code turned in for intro CS classes was run through a code analysis and similarity detection system .
The system was very good , I am not aware of any false positives , and it would be more work to re-engineer somebody else 's code to avoid detection than to just write it from scratch.This system was in place somewhere in the early to mid 1990s ( I was a freshman in 1996 , and it had been used for at least a year ) .
This was explained to everybody the first day of each of the 2 intro CS classes .
There were several people in my freshman class in '96 who were expelled as a result of being caught cheating in CS 50 .
Oops. Anyway , this is now old technology - if you do n't know it exists or do n't believe it 's so easy to fingerprint code , you are an idiot.Furthermore , if you were the " cheatee " and there was reason to suspect you willingly provided the cheater with your code to copy , you would both be subject to expulsion .
Ouch.If you are too stupid to realize that when you hand in plagiarized code , you are n't taking a * risk * that you will be caught , you are engaging in the certainty that you will be caught , then you do n't deserve to be at a university of this caliber .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why people would even try cheating in a CS class at a decent university is a mystery to me.
At my school in Cambridge, Mass.
(not MIT, the other one), every line of code turned in for intro CS classes was run through a code analysis and similarity detection system.
The system was very good, I am not aware of any false positives, and it would be more work to re-engineer somebody else's code to avoid detection than to just write it from scratch.This system was in place somewhere in the early to mid 1990s (I was a freshman in 1996, and it had been used for at least a year).
This was explained to everybody the first day of each of the 2 intro CS classes.
There were several people in my freshman class in '96 who were expelled as a result of being caught cheating in CS 50.
Oops.  Anyway, this is now old technology - if you don't know it exists or don't believe it's so easy to fingerprint code, you are an idiot.Furthermore, if you were the "cheatee" and there was reason to suspect you willingly provided the cheater with your code to copy, you would both be subject to expulsion.
Ouch.If you are too stupid to realize that when you hand in plagiarized code, you aren't taking a *risk* that you will be caught, you are engaging in the certainty that you will be caught, then you don't deserve to be at a university of this caliber.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113268</id>
	<title>Cheating by Idiots</title>
	<author>cervo</author>
	<datestamp>1265991540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I had a professor mention how he catches people cheating:
<br> <br>
1.  Their english stinks and they cheat from someone with perfect english.  Or they cheat from someone with bad english.  If two people have the same writing style/spelling errors in an essay question it is usually a clue that someone cheated.<br>
2.  Two people have exactly the same wrong answer.  This depends on the exam, but for an essay exam to have the same wrong answer is usually a dead giveaway.<br> <br>
<br> <br>
So to cheat:<br> <br>
1.  Pay attention to writing style/spelling, if something is a radically different style from your normal one, it is a giveaway.<br>
2.  Make sure your answer is right, otherwise that is a giveaway as well.  Of course if you know the answer is right, then you could just answer it on your own......<br> <br>
It's easier just to study if you ask me....</htmltext>
<tokenext>I had a professor mention how he catches people cheating : 1 .
Their english stinks and they cheat from someone with perfect english .
Or they cheat from someone with bad english .
If two people have the same writing style/spelling errors in an essay question it is usually a clue that someone cheated .
2. Two people have exactly the same wrong answer .
This depends on the exam , but for an essay exam to have the same wrong answer is usually a dead giveaway .
So to cheat : 1 .
Pay attention to writing style/spelling , if something is a radically different style from your normal one , it is a giveaway .
2. Make sure your answer is right , otherwise that is a giveaway as well .
Of course if you know the answer is right , then you could just answer it on your own..... . It 's easier just to study if you ask me... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I had a professor mention how he catches people cheating:
 
1.
Their english stinks and they cheat from someone with perfect english.
Or they cheat from someone with bad english.
If two people have the same writing style/spelling errors in an essay question it is usually a clue that someone cheated.
2.  Two people have exactly the same wrong answer.
This depends on the exam, but for an essay exam to have the same wrong answer is usually a dead giveaway.
So to cheat: 
1.
Pay attention to writing style/spelling, if something is a radically different style from your normal one, it is a giveaway.
2.  Make sure your answer is right, otherwise that is a giveaway as well.
Of course if you know the answer is right, then you could just answer it on your own...... 
It's easier just to study if you ask me....</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31118826</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>ucblockhead</author>
	<datestamp>1265968560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Many years ago, my intro to programming course had a very simple solution.  You not only had to do the assignments, but you also had to explain what you did, face-to-face, with one of the TAs.  It was extremely labor intensive, but there is no way you could cheat your way through it without knowing the task well enough to have done it anyway.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Many years ago , my intro to programming course had a very simple solution .
You not only had to do the assignments , but you also had to explain what you did , face-to-face , with one of the TAs .
It was extremely labor intensive , but there is no way you could cheat your way through it without knowing the task well enough to have done it anyway .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Many years ago, my intro to programming course had a very simple solution.
You not only had to do the assignments, but you also had to explain what you did, face-to-face, with one of the TAs.
It was extremely labor intensive, but there is no way you could cheat your way through it without knowing the task well enough to have done it anyway.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112868</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112866</id>
	<title>Cheating</title>
	<author>benjfowler</author>
	<datestamp>1265989560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I did CS at a major Australian university known for taking in lots of foreign fee paying students, and they had a TERRIBLE problem with cheating.</p><p>The trouble with the fee-paying students, is that quite a few of them don't speak English natively and thus struggle, lots are just as dumb as dogshit, and many are really desperate. Result: cheating.</p><p>I couldn't put down a printout or it would get swiped. I had tutorial workbooks stolen (I was a good student, so my stuff "grew legs" quite often).  Copying of assignments was rife.  The tutors I got to know quite well detected it more often than not -- they would just mark the assignment as normal -- and then divide the mark by the number of cheats.  But in the end, the cheating, and general lack of ethics by the fee-payers got so bad, that the school simply abolished assignment work completely, and did all assessment in final exams and vivas.</p><p>The university system in Australia is underfunded (partly for ideological reasons; the rightwingers despised the universities as a hotbed for leftism and dissent), so they rely heavily on fee-payers.  As a result, standards have plummetted, and several soft-marking and corruption scandals have been uncovered.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I did CS at a major Australian university known for taking in lots of foreign fee paying students , and they had a TERRIBLE problem with cheating.The trouble with the fee-paying students , is that quite a few of them do n't speak English natively and thus struggle , lots are just as dumb as dogshit , and many are really desperate .
Result : cheating.I could n't put down a printout or it would get swiped .
I had tutorial workbooks stolen ( I was a good student , so my stuff " grew legs " quite often ) .
Copying of assignments was rife .
The tutors I got to know quite well detected it more often than not -- they would just mark the assignment as normal -- and then divide the mark by the number of cheats .
But in the end , the cheating , and general lack of ethics by the fee-payers got so bad , that the school simply abolished assignment work completely , and did all assessment in final exams and vivas.The university system in Australia is underfunded ( partly for ideological reasons ; the rightwingers despised the universities as a hotbed for leftism and dissent ) , so they rely heavily on fee-payers .
As a result , standards have plummetted , and several soft-marking and corruption scandals have been uncovered .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I did CS at a major Australian university known for taking in lots of foreign fee paying students, and they had a TERRIBLE problem with cheating.The trouble with the fee-paying students, is that quite a few of them don't speak English natively and thus struggle, lots are just as dumb as dogshit, and many are really desperate.
Result: cheating.I couldn't put down a printout or it would get swiped.
I had tutorial workbooks stolen (I was a good student, so my stuff "grew legs" quite often).
Copying of assignments was rife.
The tutors I got to know quite well detected it more often than not -- they would just mark the assignment as normal -- and then divide the mark by the number of cheats.
But in the end, the cheating, and general lack of ethics by the fee-payers got so bad, that the school simply abolished assignment work completely, and did all assessment in final exams and vivas.The university system in Australia is underfunded (partly for ideological reasons; the rightwingers despised the universities as a hotbed for leftism and dissent), so they rely heavily on fee-payers.
As a result, standards have plummetted, and several soft-marking and corruption scandals have been uncovered.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113750</id>
	<title>Harsh and fair.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265993520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When I went through my CS course the rules were pretty simple: You get caught cheating, you get kicked out.<br>Granted, the profs were happy to help people who got stuck and most of the students helped each other. If someone came up with same small clever trick, others would borrow it, but give credit for the borrowed code. Some people couldn't get through... many actually, but those who made it to the end of the year learned to balance writing their own code with sharing ideas and functions with others.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When I went through my CS course the rules were pretty simple : You get caught cheating , you get kicked out.Granted , the profs were happy to help people who got stuck and most of the students helped each other .
If someone came up with same small clever trick , others would borrow it , but give credit for the borrowed code .
Some people could n't get through... many actually , but those who made it to the end of the year learned to balance writing their own code with sharing ideas and functions with others .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I went through my CS course the rules were pretty simple: You get caught cheating, you get kicked out.Granted, the profs were happy to help people who got stuck and most of the students helped each other.
If someone came up with same small clever trick, others would borrow it, but give credit for the borrowed code.
Some people couldn't get through... many actually, but those who made it to the end of the year learned to balance writing their own code with sharing ideas and functions with others.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114336</id>
	<title>Re:Cheating is laziness...</title>
	<author>Froggy</author>
	<datestamp>1265995680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>A non-trivial programming assignment is difficult to write, and a good, robust marking scheme is even harder.  At the university where I work (I'm what Americans would call a TA) we give our first years a supervised programming lab every week.  It usually takes two or three semesters to get the bugs out of the task specifications, and that's with the lecturer and two to five TAs working together.</p><p>Programming tasks that have never been assigned to students are like software that hasn't been beta-tested: even if the designers and implementors are top-notch, there's still likely to be some unforeseen interaction with the environment and the users.</p><p>If cheating is worse in the US, it's unlikely to have anything to do with who does the grading; detecting cheats is really not that hard.  It's more likely to be a combination of, firstly, a perceived disconnect between the task and the student's personal goals, and secondly, the general devaluing of intellectual skills that seems to be endemic in Anglophone culture.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>A non-trivial programming assignment is difficult to write , and a good , robust marking scheme is even harder .
At the university where I work ( I 'm what Americans would call a TA ) we give our first years a supervised programming lab every week .
It usually takes two or three semesters to get the bugs out of the task specifications , and that 's with the lecturer and two to five TAs working together.Programming tasks that have never been assigned to students are like software that has n't been beta-tested : even if the designers and implementors are top-notch , there 's still likely to be some unforeseen interaction with the environment and the users.If cheating is worse in the US , it 's unlikely to have anything to do with who does the grading ; detecting cheats is really not that hard .
It 's more likely to be a combination of , firstly , a perceived disconnect between the task and the student 's personal goals , and secondly , the general devaluing of intellectual skills that seems to be endemic in Anglophone culture .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>A non-trivial programming assignment is difficult to write, and a good, robust marking scheme is even harder.
At the university where I work (I'm what Americans would call a TA) we give our first years a supervised programming lab every week.
It usually takes two or three semesters to get the bugs out of the task specifications, and that's with the lecturer and two to five TAs working together.Programming tasks that have never been assigned to students are like software that hasn't been beta-tested: even if the designers and implementors are top-notch, there's still likely to be some unforeseen interaction with the environment and the users.If cheating is worse in the US, it's unlikely to have anything to do with who does the grading; detecting cheats is really not that hard.
It's more likely to be a combination of, firstly, a perceived disconnect between the task and the student's personal goals, and secondly, the general devaluing of intellectual skills that seems to be endemic in Anglophone culture.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111934</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112972</id>
	<title>Re:Very easy, and very easy to get caught</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265990040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I've been TAing every semester since I got to college, and every semester we tell people that we run their submissions through <a href="http://theory.stanford.edu/~aiken/moss/" title="stanford.edu" rel="nofollow">MOSS</a> [stanford.edu] (the canonical code plagiarism detector, hosted at [and perhaps developed at?] Stanford).  We exhort that it's really not worth their trouble to try to get their code past it</p></div><p>I always wonder how many people thought they "cheated" by copying code but then ended up changing so much they actually did end up making their own unique code and learning a lot. I know, probably rarely would happen, but just thinking aloud.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>I'd really like to see the penalty for cheating to be an immediate failure in the course, if not expulsion.</p></div><p>Now I don't want to advocate cheating but I don't know how well it does for a person to give them a "one strike and your out" deal. As someone pointed out earlier, the pressures of certain universities can be quite high as well as the pressure from just your family and friends. This can push even the best students to think about cheating and I'm sure some have at some point. I think a fat zero on that assignment is mandatory and a firm warning of "we told you before not too" can scare most people straight and not totally screw them over. I know I know, some would say a zero for the course should be a good scare as well but that can sometimes also totally destroy people which I don't think is helpful. A zero on the assignment and a firm warning I would think is good, after that if they do it again, yes, fail their ass cause they won't learn.</p><p>In a sort of back asswards way I'd think that cheating and getting caught is almost a learning experience on it's own. You're constantly testing them throughout the semester on this test. They get the material ("Don't cheat, we will catch you"), take the test ("Hmm, maybe I could cheat"), and learn that that was wrong ("Uh no, don't cheat"). Give them a zero for that test and if they fail it again, then they're gone. Well, you're not really ever giving them the test, but I think you get where I'm going with the idea.</p><p>But I'm not a teacher, just thinking aloud.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've been TAing every semester since I got to college , and every semester we tell people that we run their submissions through MOSS [ stanford.edu ] ( the canonical code plagiarism detector , hosted at [ and perhaps developed at ?
] Stanford ) .
We exhort that it 's really not worth their trouble to try to get their code past itI always wonder how many people thought they " cheated " by copying code but then ended up changing so much they actually did end up making their own unique code and learning a lot .
I know , probably rarely would happen , but just thinking aloud.I 'd really like to see the penalty for cheating to be an immediate failure in the course , if not expulsion.Now I do n't want to advocate cheating but I do n't know how well it does for a person to give them a " one strike and your out " deal .
As someone pointed out earlier , the pressures of certain universities can be quite high as well as the pressure from just your family and friends .
This can push even the best students to think about cheating and I 'm sure some have at some point .
I think a fat zero on that assignment is mandatory and a firm warning of " we told you before not too " can scare most people straight and not totally screw them over .
I know I know , some would say a zero for the course should be a good scare as well but that can sometimes also totally destroy people which I do n't think is helpful .
A zero on the assignment and a firm warning I would think is good , after that if they do it again , yes , fail their ass cause they wo n't learn.In a sort of back asswards way I 'd think that cheating and getting caught is almost a learning experience on it 's own .
You 're constantly testing them throughout the semester on this test .
They get the material ( " Do n't cheat , we will catch you " ) , take the test ( " Hmm , maybe I could cheat " ) , and learn that that was wrong ( " Uh no , do n't cheat " ) .
Give them a zero for that test and if they fail it again , then they 're gone .
Well , you 're not really ever giving them the test , but I think you get where I 'm going with the idea.But I 'm not a teacher , just thinking aloud .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've been TAing every semester since I got to college, and every semester we tell people that we run their submissions through MOSS [stanford.edu] (the canonical code plagiarism detector, hosted at [and perhaps developed at?
] Stanford).
We exhort that it's really not worth their trouble to try to get their code past itI always wonder how many people thought they "cheated" by copying code but then ended up changing so much they actually did end up making their own unique code and learning a lot.
I know, probably rarely would happen, but just thinking aloud.I'd really like to see the penalty for cheating to be an immediate failure in the course, if not expulsion.Now I don't want to advocate cheating but I don't know how well it does for a person to give them a "one strike and your out" deal.
As someone pointed out earlier, the pressures of certain universities can be quite high as well as the pressure from just your family and friends.
This can push even the best students to think about cheating and I'm sure some have at some point.
I think a fat zero on that assignment is mandatory and a firm warning of "we told you before not too" can scare most people straight and not totally screw them over.
I know I know, some would say a zero for the course should be a good scare as well but that can sometimes also totally destroy people which I don't think is helpful.
A zero on the assignment and a firm warning I would think is good, after that if they do it again, yes, fail their ass cause they won't learn.In a sort of back asswards way I'd think that cheating and getting caught is almost a learning experience on it's own.
You're constantly testing them throughout the semester on this test.
They get the material ("Don't cheat, we will catch you"), take the test ("Hmm, maybe I could cheat"), and learn that that was wrong ("Uh no, don't cheat").
Give them a zero for that test and if they fail it again, then they're gone.
Well, you're not really ever giving them the test, but I think you get where I'm going with the idea.But I'm not a teacher, just thinking aloud.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117470</id>
	<title>Re:Expelled</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266008340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>[Anonymous for obvious reasons]</p><p>I am a university prof, and I can tell you I have no problem punishing students who blatantly cheat. Of course there are cases in which you have strong suspicions, but not enough evidence to be conclusive. In those cases it is not worth anybody's time to file the report, go to the disciplinary hearing etc. But if it is blatant cheating, then the students are sending me a very clear message with that: they think I am stupid enough to not notice. That just pisses me off, so yeah, I want to see them punished.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>[ Anonymous for obvious reasons ] I am a university prof , and I can tell you I have no problem punishing students who blatantly cheat .
Of course there are cases in which you have strong suspicions , but not enough evidence to be conclusive .
In those cases it is not worth anybody 's time to file the report , go to the disciplinary hearing etc .
But if it is blatant cheating , then the students are sending me a very clear message with that : they think I am stupid enough to not notice .
That just pisses me off , so yeah , I want to see them punished .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>[Anonymous for obvious reasons]I am a university prof, and I can tell you I have no problem punishing students who blatantly cheat.
Of course there are cases in which you have strong suspicions, but not enough evidence to be conclusive.
In those cases it is not worth anybody's time to file the report, go to the disciplinary hearing etc.
But if it is blatant cheating, then the students are sending me a very clear message with that: they think I am stupid enough to not notice.
That just pisses me off, so yeah, I want to see them punished.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112682</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111926</id>
	<title>Maybe cheating in CS is easy...</title>
	<author>GhigoRenzulli</author>
	<datestamp>1265984640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>... but also cheating in CS:S is not that difficult.<br>
Valve should really stop those nasty cheaters.</p><p>Now that I've posted a reply, I'm going to RTFA.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>... but also cheating in CS : S is not that difficult .
Valve should really stop those nasty cheaters.Now that I 've posted a reply , I 'm going to RTFA .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... but also cheating in CS:S is not that difficult.
Valve should really stop those nasty cheaters.Now that I've posted a reply, I'm going to RTFA.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112880</id>
	<title>Re:Very easy, and very easy to get caught</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265989620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Writing code side-by-side with another person is superior to solo-coding in all aspects.</p><p>They bounce ideas around. Talk about what they like or dislike in proposed solutions. If there's no clear winner, they will negotiate and agree on some trade-off. They pick up coding techniques from each other. They talk about technique. Talk about style. Does any of that sound like a bad learning experience?</p><p>Anyone who has paired will tell you the resulting code is higher quality compared to what either member of the pair could produce individually. Is higher quality code a bad thing?</p><p>The future of coding is teamwork, no longer the anti-social hacker.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Writing code side-by-side with another person is superior to solo-coding in all aspects.They bounce ideas around .
Talk about what they like or dislike in proposed solutions .
If there 's no clear winner , they will negotiate and agree on some trade-off .
They pick up coding techniques from each other .
They talk about technique .
Talk about style .
Does any of that sound like a bad learning experience ? Anyone who has paired will tell you the resulting code is higher quality compared to what either member of the pair could produce individually .
Is higher quality code a bad thing ? The future of coding is teamwork , no longer the anti-social hacker .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Writing code side-by-side with another person is superior to solo-coding in all aspects.They bounce ideas around.
Talk about what they like or dislike in proposed solutions.
If there's no clear winner, they will negotiate and agree on some trade-off.
They pick up coding techniques from each other.
They talk about technique.
Talk about style.
Does any of that sound like a bad learning experience?Anyone who has paired will tell you the resulting code is higher quality compared to what either member of the pair could produce individually.
Is higher quality code a bad thing?The future of coding is teamwork, no longer the anti-social hacker.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113254</id>
	<title>Mid Term and Final 50\%</title>
	<author>StillNeedMoreCoffee</author>
	<datestamp>1265991420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I taught CS at a major University for 27 years in the evening. I ended up weighting the midterm and final equally and 50\% of the grade. I gave 2 quizes between and a number of assignments. That set was equally weighted and represented the other half. The first quiz was the wake up call for the format and difficulty of the Midterm and final.</p><p>The 50\% was because that was much harder to fake, you at least in class have to show what you know, and given descriptions of problems to solve you get to see organization, approach, problem solving, knowledge and understanding at the same time.</p><p>The issue is that CS is a technology and I would tell classes this formula.</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Plagerism + Royalties + Proper Attirbution = Productivity</p><p>and that if you missed either the necessary Rolyalties or Attribution you would get kicked out of school.</p><p>As a technology you build off the knowledge and work of the past to extend the idea's into the future. And for most programs you are implementing a known common algorithms, which should mean that your code should be very similar to others if you are being efficient and following common coding practice.</p><p>If you give a varied set of difficult, conceptually programs it is harder to get code to copy. I did however give an assignment that did have a variation in some text books. I would warn that the text book version did not implement the same idea, but invariably I would get a few that pulled not only the algorithm but the code from the book, and no attibution.</p><p>One time I got two programs for an assignment, neither worked, both had identical code portions with the very same bug. That one was easy to spot, for god's sake copy working code!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I taught CS at a major University for 27 years in the evening .
I ended up weighting the midterm and final equally and 50 \ % of the grade .
I gave 2 quizes between and a number of assignments .
That set was equally weighted and represented the other half .
The first quiz was the wake up call for the format and difficulty of the Midterm and final.The 50 \ % was because that was much harder to fake , you at least in class have to show what you know , and given descriptions of problems to solve you get to see organization , approach , problem solving , knowledge and understanding at the same time.The issue is that CS is a technology and I would tell classes this formula .
                Plagerism + Royalties + Proper Attirbution = Productivityand that if you missed either the necessary Rolyalties or Attribution you would get kicked out of school.As a technology you build off the knowledge and work of the past to extend the idea 's into the future .
And for most programs you are implementing a known common algorithms , which should mean that your code should be very similar to others if you are being efficient and following common coding practice.If you give a varied set of difficult , conceptually programs it is harder to get code to copy .
I did however give an assignment that did have a variation in some text books .
I would warn that the text book version did not implement the same idea , but invariably I would get a few that pulled not only the algorithm but the code from the book , and no attibution.One time I got two programs for an assignment , neither worked , both had identical code portions with the very same bug .
That one was easy to spot , for god 's sake copy working code !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I taught CS at a major University for 27 years in the evening.
I ended up weighting the midterm and final equally and 50\% of the grade.
I gave 2 quizes between and a number of assignments.
That set was equally weighted and represented the other half.
The first quiz was the wake up call for the format and difficulty of the Midterm and final.The 50\% was because that was much harder to fake, you at least in class have to show what you know, and given descriptions of problems to solve you get to see organization, approach, problem solving, knowledge and understanding at the same time.The issue is that CS is a technology and I would tell classes this formula.
                Plagerism + Royalties + Proper Attirbution = Productivityand that if you missed either the necessary Rolyalties or Attribution you would get kicked out of school.As a technology you build off the knowledge and work of the past to extend the idea's into the future.
And for most programs you are implementing a known common algorithms, which should mean that your code should be very similar to others if you are being efficient and following common coding practice.If you give a varied set of difficult, conceptually programs it is harder to get code to copy.
I did however give an assignment that did have a variation in some text books.
I would warn that the text book version did not implement the same idea, but invariably I would get a few that pulled not only the algorithm but the code from the book, and no attibution.One time I got two programs for an assignment, neither worked, both had identical code portions with the very same bug.
That one was easy to spot, for god's sake copy working code!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113776</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>mcvos</author>
	<datestamp>1265993580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At my university, they used a program that analysed the parse tree, rather than the source code. Even changing spaces and variable names wouldn't distinguish it sufficiently from a copy. You need to really change the structure of your code, and then you might as well just write the whole thing yourself.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At my university , they used a program that analysed the parse tree , rather than the source code .
Even changing spaces and variable names would n't distinguish it sufficiently from a copy .
You need to really change the structure of your code , and then you might as well just write the whole thing yourself .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At my university, they used a program that analysed the parse tree, rather than the source code.
Even changing spaces and variable names wouldn't distinguish it sufficiently from a copy.
You need to really change the structure of your code, and then you might as well just write the whole thing yourself.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112868</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113330</id>
	<title>Re:Half of the story.</title>
	<author>i.r.id10t</author>
	<datestamp>1265991780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Had the same issue in the programming classes I took here at the comm. college</p><p>Everyone wanted to be in my group because I had lots of prior programming experience.</p><p>Solved it by writing all the code, obfuscating some of it, using crappy 1 letter variable names, throwing in a bunch of code that was never actually used, and not commenting any of it.</p><p>Turned it in to the instructor as a group, told her I wrote the code, and she should grade my group members based on their commenting of it</p><p>Worked well...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Had the same issue in the programming classes I took here at the comm .
collegeEveryone wanted to be in my group because I had lots of prior programming experience.Solved it by writing all the code , obfuscating some of it , using crappy 1 letter variable names , throwing in a bunch of code that was never actually used , and not commenting any of it.Turned it in to the instructor as a group , told her I wrote the code , and she should grade my group members based on their commenting of itWorked well.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Had the same issue in the programming classes I took here at the comm.
collegeEveryone wanted to be in my group because I had lots of prior programming experience.Solved it by writing all the code, obfuscating some of it, using crappy 1 letter variable names, throwing in a bunch of code that was never actually used, and not commenting any of it.Turned it in to the instructor as a group, told her I wrote the code, and she should grade my group members based on their commenting of itWorked well...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111928</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115452</id>
	<title>Re:No outside help ?</title>
	<author>aronschatz</author>
	<datestamp>1265999940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I went to the same school (Masters as well) and I usually did coursework in groups as it was easier for other people to learn by doing problems together. I wasn't a computer science person, but a computer engineering grad. Less programming.</p><p>By the way, Stevens doesn't give engineering degrees anymore! I'm glad I got one (BEng, MEng). Class of 2005 (BEng) and 2006 (MEng). How about you?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I went to the same school ( Masters as well ) and I usually did coursework in groups as it was easier for other people to learn by doing problems together .
I was n't a computer science person , but a computer engineering grad .
Less programming.By the way , Stevens does n't give engineering degrees anymore !
I 'm glad I got one ( BEng , MEng ) .
Class of 2005 ( BEng ) and 2006 ( MEng ) .
How about you ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I went to the same school (Masters as well) and I usually did coursework in groups as it was easier for other people to learn by doing problems together.
I wasn't a computer science person, but a computer engineering grad.
Less programming.By the way, Stevens doesn't give engineering degrees anymore!
I'm glad I got one (BEng, MEng).
Class of 2005 (BEng) and 2006 (MEng).
How about you?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112306</id>
	<title>At my state school...</title>
	<author>duffbeer703</author>
	<datestamp>1265986860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It was easy to cheat if you were an Asian, and you cheated using a foreign language. In one egregious example, some students were sharing a graphing calculator with study material loaded on it. The professor kicked them out of the exam, but was brought up on charges for racial insensitivity and the students were allowed to retake the test.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It was easy to cheat if you were an Asian , and you cheated using a foreign language .
In one egregious example , some students were sharing a graphing calculator with study material loaded on it .
The professor kicked them out of the exam , but was brought up on charges for racial insensitivity and the students were allowed to retake the test .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It was easy to cheat if you were an Asian, and you cheated using a foreign language.
In one egregious example, some students were sharing a graphing calculator with study material loaded on it.
The professor kicked them out of the exam, but was brought up on charges for racial insensitivity and the students were allowed to retake the test.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115792</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>rxan</author>
	<datestamp>1266001140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>In university the prof gave us an assignment and specifically said "Do not launch any threads. This is to be a single-thread application." The whole class goes single-threaded and gets hosed, while the one guy who didn't understand the rules and launched something like 30 threads got the highest mark.</htmltext>
<tokenext>In university the prof gave us an assignment and specifically said " Do not launch any threads .
This is to be a single-thread application .
" The whole class goes single-threaded and gets hosed , while the one guy who did n't understand the rules and launched something like 30 threads got the highest mark .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In university the prof gave us an assignment and specifically said "Do not launch any threads.
This is to be a single-thread application.
" The whole class goes single-threaded and gets hosed, while the one guy who didn't understand the rules and launched something like 30 threads got the highest mark.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112126</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117494</id>
	<title>What's the problem? Just let them cheat!</title>
	<author>Chemisor</author>
	<datestamp>1265965200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The real problem here is the idea that a college degree is treated as a certification. The right thing to do is to get rid of that idea and treat college as a private matter, with the degree being awarded for completion, not competence. Any employer will grill you on an interview anyway, and will know if you know how to write code. Anyone who doesn't deserves the quality employees he will get.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The real problem here is the idea that a college degree is treated as a certification .
The right thing to do is to get rid of that idea and treat college as a private matter , with the degree being awarded for completion , not competence .
Any employer will grill you on an interview anyway , and will know if you know how to write code .
Anyone who does n't deserves the quality employees he will get .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The real problem here is the idea that a college degree is treated as a certification.
The right thing to do is to get rid of that idea and treat college as a private matter, with the degree being awarded for completion, not competence.
Any employer will grill you on an interview anyway, and will know if you know how to write code.
Anyone who doesn't deserves the quality employees he will get.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112470</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113278</id>
	<title>Re:Group punishment</title>
	<author>GrantRobertson</author>
	<datestamp>1265991600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Finally, someone is talking about the real problem with that article: Group punishment. I thought that was outlawed somehow. If I were in that class I would summarily drop and file a complaint with the dean. Group punishment is a lazy professor's choice. It forces the responsibility for preventing cheating down to the students, many of whom have now power to change the behavior of others. But the lazy professor can sit up there and smugly say, "You should have policed your peers better."  WTF!?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Finally , someone is talking about the real problem with that article : Group punishment .
I thought that was outlawed somehow .
If I were in that class I would summarily drop and file a complaint with the dean .
Group punishment is a lazy professor 's choice .
It forces the responsibility for preventing cheating down to the students , many of whom have now power to change the behavior of others .
But the lazy professor can sit up there and smugly say , " You should have policed your peers better .
" WTF !
?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Finally, someone is talking about the real problem with that article: Group punishment.
I thought that was outlawed somehow.
If I were in that class I would summarily drop and file a complaint with the dean.
Group punishment is a lazy professor's choice.
It forces the responsibility for preventing cheating down to the students, many of whom have now power to change the behavior of others.
But the lazy professor can sit up there and smugly say, "You should have policed your peers better.
"  WTF!
?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112118</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114666</id>
	<title>No two programs are alike?</title>
	<author>lwriemen</author>
	<datestamp>1265996820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>From the article: "Programs are idiosyncratic as sentences and no two are alike," he said. "They are not even comparable if they are independently generated. It's particularly easy to detect if they've been copied."</p><p>While it is extremely hard to independently produce duplicate programs at the 3GL level, it isn't impossible. The problem space will have only one optimal solution. The semantics of the problem space could easily lead to a common choice of classifications. The higher you go in abstraction, the more likely it is to produce identical programs.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>From the article : " Programs are idiosyncratic as sentences and no two are alike , " he said .
" They are not even comparable if they are independently generated .
It 's particularly easy to detect if they 've been copied .
" While it is extremely hard to independently produce duplicate programs at the 3GL level , it is n't impossible .
The problem space will have only one optimal solution .
The semantics of the problem space could easily lead to a common choice of classifications .
The higher you go in abstraction , the more likely it is to produce identical programs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>From the article: "Programs are idiosyncratic as sentences and no two are alike," he said.
"They are not even comparable if they are independently generated.
It's particularly easy to detect if they've been copied.
"While it is extremely hard to independently produce duplicate programs at the 3GL level, it isn't impossible.
The problem space will have only one optimal solution.
The semantics of the problem space could easily lead to a common choice of classifications.
The higher you go in abstraction, the more likely it is to produce identical programs.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31116678</id>
	<title>I love helping people with homework.</title>
	<author>seebs</author>
	<datestamp>1266004800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><tt>When people post homework questions on comp.lang.c, I often provide them with answers.&nbsp; For instance, someone posted asking for help writing a program that, given a number, would print out something like "the first digit is one, the second digit is two", etcetera.<br><br>My solution started out:<br><br>struct {<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; double lo, close;<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; int d;<br>} digits[] = {<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; { 6.80183905339058814121, 6.80239476332431092231, '\x39' },<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; { 6.68398653227400885157, 6.68461172766792710576, '\x38' },<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; { 6.55036579410553621017, 6.55108033504340436792, '\x37' },<br>[...]<br><br>Here's the main loop:<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp; for (i = (d &gt;= 0 ? 0 : (hit = 1, 20)); digits[i].lo == digits[i].lo; ++i) {<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; if (d &gt; digits[i].lo) {<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; printf("The \%s digit of the number is \%c.\n",<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; names[di++], digits[i].d);<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; d = log(exp(d) - exp(digits[i].close));<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; hit = 2;<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; if (digits[i].lo == 9) {<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; if (hit == 1)<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; printf("The \%s digit of the number is \%c.\n",<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; names[di++], digits[i].d);<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; if (hit)<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; hit = 1;<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; }<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; }<br><br>I sincerely hope he handed this one in.</tt></htmltext>
<tokenext>When people post homework questions on comp.lang.c , I often provide them with answers.   For instance , someone posted asking for help writing a program that , given a number , would print out something like " the first digit is one , the second digit is two " , etcetera.My solution started out : struct {     double lo , close ;     int d ; } digits [ ] = {     { 6.80183905339058814121 , 6.80239476332431092231 , ' \ x39 ' } ,     { 6.68398653227400885157 , 6.68461172766792710576 , ' \ x38 ' } ,     { 6.55036579410553621017 , 6.55108033504340436792 , ' \ x37 ' } , [ ... ] Here 's the main loop :     for ( i = ( d &gt; = 0 ?
0 : ( hit = 1 , 20 ) ) ; digits [ i ] .lo = = digits [ i ] .lo ; + + i ) {         if ( d &gt; digits [ i ] .lo ) {             printf ( " The \ % s digit of the number is \ % c. \ n " ,                 names [ di + + ] , digits [ i ] .d ) ;             d = log ( exp ( d ) - exp ( digits [ i ] .close ) ) ;             hit = 2 ;         }         if ( digits [ i ] .lo = = 9 ) {             if ( hit = = 1 )                 printf ( " The \ % s digit of the number is \ % c. \ n " ,                     names [ di + + ] , digits [ i ] .d ) ;             if ( hit )                 hit = 1 ;         }     } I sincerely hope he handed this one in .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When people post homework questions on comp.lang.c, I often provide them with answers.  For instance, someone posted asking for help writing a program that, given a number, would print out something like "the first digit is one, the second digit is two", etcetera.My solution started out:struct {    double lo, close;    int d;} digits[] = {    { 6.80183905339058814121, 6.80239476332431092231, '\x39' },    { 6.68398653227400885157, 6.68461172766792710576, '\x38' },    { 6.55036579410553621017, 6.55108033504340436792, '\x37' },[...]Here's the main loop:    for (i = (d &gt;= 0 ?
0 : (hit = 1, 20)); digits[i].lo == digits[i].lo; ++i) {        if (d &gt; digits[i].lo) {            printf("The \%s digit of the number is \%c.\n",                names[di++], digits[i].d);            d = log(exp(d) - exp(digits[i].close));            hit = 2;        }        if (digits[i].lo == 9) {            if (hit == 1)                printf("The \%s digit of the number is \%c.\n",                    names[di++], digits[i].d);            if (hit)                hit = 1;        }    }I sincerely hope he handed this one in.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112280</id>
	<title>Re:No outside help ?</title>
	<author>gatzby3jr</author>
	<datestamp>1265986680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think this more has to do with contracting a 3rd party to do the project for you.  While you might say this is redundant, as that is plagiarizing, there's a subtle difference.  I would take it to mean plagiarizing to be taking code off the net and passing it as your own, copying to be copying your work from another classmate, and outside help by just asking another programmer to specifically do your project.</p><p>When I was in my senior year of CS study, our OS teacher made us do code walk-thru's with the TA's to demonstrate how our code worked on our last project.  I didn't think much of it other than a time waster.  My opinion changed drastically when I arrived at my appointment.</p><p>The student in front of me was still in his appointment, and was being questioned by the TA.  After listening in for a few seconds, I learned that the student could not tell the TA where the entry point to the program was.  He didn't know where the main() method was in the program.  Nevermind the complexity of the whole program (that worked), but he had no idea where it started.  He kept INSISTING that the work was his, but couldn't tell the TA how it began.</p><p>It was pretty clear he had someone else do the program for him, whether he contracted or copied it from a friend as the project was pretty specific in nature, don't think you could have downloaded it from the web.</p><p>I soon had a whole new outlook on code walk-thru's in an academic environment.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think this more has to do with contracting a 3rd party to do the project for you .
While you might say this is redundant , as that is plagiarizing , there 's a subtle difference .
I would take it to mean plagiarizing to be taking code off the net and passing it as your own , copying to be copying your work from another classmate , and outside help by just asking another programmer to specifically do your project.When I was in my senior year of CS study , our OS teacher made us do code walk-thru 's with the TA 's to demonstrate how our code worked on our last project .
I did n't think much of it other than a time waster .
My opinion changed drastically when I arrived at my appointment.The student in front of me was still in his appointment , and was being questioned by the TA .
After listening in for a few seconds , I learned that the student could not tell the TA where the entry point to the program was .
He did n't know where the main ( ) method was in the program .
Nevermind the complexity of the whole program ( that worked ) , but he had no idea where it started .
He kept INSISTING that the work was his , but could n't tell the TA how it began.It was pretty clear he had someone else do the program for him , whether he contracted or copied it from a friend as the project was pretty specific in nature , do n't think you could have downloaded it from the web.I soon had a whole new outlook on code walk-thru 's in an academic environment .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think this more has to do with contracting a 3rd party to do the project for you.
While you might say this is redundant, as that is plagiarizing, there's a subtle difference.
I would take it to mean plagiarizing to be taking code off the net and passing it as your own, copying to be copying your work from another classmate, and outside help by just asking another programmer to specifically do your project.When I was in my senior year of CS study, our OS teacher made us do code walk-thru's with the TA's to demonstrate how our code worked on our last project.
I didn't think much of it other than a time waster.
My opinion changed drastically when I arrived at my appointment.The student in front of me was still in his appointment, and was being questioned by the TA.
After listening in for a few seconds, I learned that the student could not tell the TA where the entry point to the program was.
He didn't know where the main() method was in the program.
Nevermind the complexity of the whole program (that worked), but he had no idea where it started.
He kept INSISTING that the work was his, but couldn't tell the TA how it began.It was pretty clear he had someone else do the program for him, whether he contracted or copied it from a friend as the project was pretty specific in nature, don't think you could have downloaded it from the web.I soon had a whole new outlook on code walk-thru's in an academic environment.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115218</id>
	<title>Re:Expelled</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265998920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Where I taught, if you cheated and got caught, you got referred<br>to a special administrator.    The result tended to be you were suspended for a quarter or voluntarily dropped out.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Where I taught , if you cheated and got caught , you got referredto a special administrator .
The result tended to be you were suspended for a quarter or voluntarily dropped out .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Where I taught, if you cheated and got caught, you got referredto a special administrator.
The result tended to be you were suspended for a quarter or voluntarily dropped out.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112156</id>
	<title>CS doesn't require cheating</title>
	<author>erroneus</author>
	<datestamp>1265986020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It requires a personality trait.  If you don't have it, then you shouldn't be taking that course.  The last thing the workforce needs is another cert chaser who has no talent and no skill in that line of work.</p><p>And frankly, if you have that personality trait, then cheating is far from necessary.  CS isn't so much about memorizing as it is about understanding the material.  There are often many correct answers in CS.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It requires a personality trait .
If you do n't have it , then you should n't be taking that course .
The last thing the workforce needs is another cert chaser who has no talent and no skill in that line of work.And frankly , if you have that personality trait , then cheating is far from necessary .
CS is n't so much about memorizing as it is about understanding the material .
There are often many correct answers in CS .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It requires a personality trait.
If you don't have it, then you shouldn't be taking that course.
The last thing the workforce needs is another cert chaser who has no talent and no skill in that line of work.And frankly, if you have that personality trait, then cheating is far from necessary.
CS isn't so much about memorizing as it is about understanding the material.
There are often many correct answers in CS.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117060</id>
	<title>Re:Expelled</title>
	<author>Ephemeriis</author>
	<datestamp>1266006900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Just make the punishment for cheating sufficiently harsh.  You cheat.. you get kicked out. Simple.</p></div><p>My first year of my CS degree my professor wanted to talk to me after class one day.  She explained that I'd been caught cheating on one of the assignments.  I denied it.  She explained that copying another student's work was plagiarism, and the penalty for that was expulsion.  She was going to ignore it this time and give me a 0 on the assignment, but if she caught me again that would be it.</p><p>I had the distinct impression that if I insisted on my innocence she would change her mind and not ignore the offense.  She seemed absolutely convinced that I had copied somebody else's work.</p><p>The fact of the matter is that I hadn't copied anyone's work.</p><p>I don't know if somebody grabbed my printout from the bin and copied my code...  Or if I just happened to turn in very similar code to someone else...  Or what.</p><p>Left me absolutely paranoid, didn't trust anyone, was terrified of getting kicked out of school for something I didn't even do.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Just make the punishment for cheating sufficiently harsh .
You cheat.. you get kicked out .
Simple.My first year of my CS degree my professor wanted to talk to me after class one day .
She explained that I 'd been caught cheating on one of the assignments .
I denied it .
She explained that copying another student 's work was plagiarism , and the penalty for that was expulsion .
She was going to ignore it this time and give me a 0 on the assignment , but if she caught me again that would be it.I had the distinct impression that if I insisted on my innocence she would change her mind and not ignore the offense .
She seemed absolutely convinced that I had copied somebody else 's work.The fact of the matter is that I had n't copied anyone 's work.I do n't know if somebody grabbed my printout from the bin and copied my code... Or if I just happened to turn in very similar code to someone else... Or what.Left me absolutely paranoid , did n't trust anyone , was terrified of getting kicked out of school for something I did n't even do .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just make the punishment for cheating sufficiently harsh.
You cheat.. you get kicked out.
Simple.My first year of my CS degree my professor wanted to talk to me after class one day.
She explained that I'd been caught cheating on one of the assignments.
I denied it.
She explained that copying another student's work was plagiarism, and the penalty for that was expulsion.
She was going to ignore it this time and give me a 0 on the assignment, but if she caught me again that would be it.I had the distinct impression that if I insisted on my innocence she would change her mind and not ignore the offense.
She seemed absolutely convinced that I had copied somebody else's work.The fact of the matter is that I hadn't copied anyone's work.I don't know if somebody grabbed my printout from the bin and copied my code...  Or if I just happened to turn in very similar code to someone else...  Or what.Left me absolutely paranoid, didn't trust anyone, was terrified of getting kicked out of school for something I didn't even do.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113170</id>
	<title>Re:Very easy, and very easy to get caught</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265991120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; suggesting they just sat side by side and wrote the lab together.</p><p>This is an excellent way to learn. You should probably encourage it for routine assignments. If the students aren't learning from it (which they almost certainly are, and if well paired probably learning more much than if they struggled through it alone), then they'll get horrible exam scores. Weight the exams accordingly.</p><p>From personal experience working in groups, I found I didn't <i>really</i> understand anything until I could explain the nuances of it to a classmate. I learned many of those nuances from other students who helped explain things to me. Working in groups so students teach each other is a very efficient, very thorough, way to learn. It keeps students better engaged in the topic, they come up with better solutions, they understand it more thoroughly, and last but not least, they save your time by answering questions for one another.</p><p>Seriously, encourage students to work together! If you do, you're doing everyone a favor. When your students get hired down the road, their employers will thank you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; suggesting they just sat side by side and wrote the lab together.This is an excellent way to learn .
You should probably encourage it for routine assignments .
If the students are n't learning from it ( which they almost certainly are , and if well paired probably learning more much than if they struggled through it alone ) , then they 'll get horrible exam scores .
Weight the exams accordingly.From personal experience working in groups , I found I did n't really understand anything until I could explain the nuances of it to a classmate .
I learned many of those nuances from other students who helped explain things to me .
Working in groups so students teach each other is a very efficient , very thorough , way to learn .
It keeps students better engaged in the topic , they come up with better solutions , they understand it more thoroughly , and last but not least , they save your time by answering questions for one another.Seriously , encourage students to work together !
If you do , you 're doing everyone a favor .
When your students get hired down the road , their employers will thank you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; suggesting they just sat side by side and wrote the lab together.This is an excellent way to learn.
You should probably encourage it for routine assignments.
If the students aren't learning from it (which they almost certainly are, and if well paired probably learning more much than if they struggled through it alone), then they'll get horrible exam scores.
Weight the exams accordingly.From personal experience working in groups, I found I didn't really understand anything until I could explain the nuances of it to a classmate.
I learned many of those nuances from other students who helped explain things to me.
Working in groups so students teach each other is a very efficient, very thorough, way to learn.
It keeps students better engaged in the topic, they come up with better solutions, they understand it more thoroughly, and last but not least, they save your time by answering questions for one another.Seriously, encourage students to work together!
If you do, you're doing everyone a favor.
When your students get hired down the road, their employers will thank you.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114026</id>
	<title>Re:Dumb cheats are easy to catch</title>
	<author>ColoradoAuthor</author>
	<datestamp>1265994480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Cheaters, lazy bums that they are, tend to do everything together, including shopping and walking to class. Hence the old teacher's trick: require hardcopies to be placed in folders or envelopes and turned in via a drop box.  90\% of the time, the cheaters' assignments will be turned in together, one right on top of the other, using identical folders/envelopes.  Just be careful not to shuffle the pile when grading.  A clever prof can probably figure out an equivalent scheme for the virtual classroom.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Cheaters , lazy bums that they are , tend to do everything together , including shopping and walking to class .
Hence the old teacher 's trick : require hardcopies to be placed in folders or envelopes and turned in via a drop box .
90 \ % of the time , the cheaters ' assignments will be turned in together , one right on top of the other , using identical folders/envelopes .
Just be careful not to shuffle the pile when grading .
A clever prof can probably figure out an equivalent scheme for the virtual classroom .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Cheaters, lazy bums that they are, tend to do everything together, including shopping and walking to class.
Hence the old teacher's trick: require hardcopies to be placed in folders or envelopes and turned in via a drop box.
90\% of the time, the cheaters' assignments will be turned in together, one right on top of the other, using identical folders/envelopes.
Just be careful not to shuffle the pile when grading.
A clever prof can probably figure out an equivalent scheme for the virtual classroom.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111980</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112814</id>
	<title>Re:A ramble from the TAs view</title>
	<author>Kryptikmo</author>
	<datestamp>1265989380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Hm - it could be that he wasn't getting the support he needed. But, in my experience the people who cheat are not the type who would directly come and ask for support. Cheaters tend to be people who don't know the answers because they never really tried, and therefore don't have a huge emotional investment in the course. The cheating generally occurs as a last-minute attempt to hand in something 'reasonable' without having had to do the work.<br><br>I've found that the students that come and ask for help directly are a little too proud to scheme off someone else's work - and that since they are willing to work at the course and come for help when necessary, they rarely need to cheat.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Hm - it could be that he was n't getting the support he needed .
But , in my experience the people who cheat are not the type who would directly come and ask for support .
Cheaters tend to be people who do n't know the answers because they never really tried , and therefore do n't have a huge emotional investment in the course .
The cheating generally occurs as a last-minute attempt to hand in something 'reasonable ' without having had to do the work.I 've found that the students that come and ask for help directly are a little too proud to scheme off someone else 's work - and that since they are willing to work at the course and come for help when necessary , they rarely need to cheat .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hm - it could be that he wasn't getting the support he needed.
But, in my experience the people who cheat are not the type who would directly come and ask for support.
Cheaters tend to be people who don't know the answers because they never really tried, and therefore don't have a huge emotional investment in the course.
The cheating generally occurs as a last-minute attempt to hand in something 'reasonable' without having had to do the work.I've found that the students that come and ask for help directly are a little too proud to scheme off someone else's work - and that since they are willing to work at the course and come for help when necessary, they rarely need to cheat.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112094</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113194</id>
	<title>Re:No outside help ?</title>
	<author>VShael</author>
	<datestamp>1265991180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>I would venture that at least half of homework was done in study groups, sometimes just to bounce idea off each other, sometimes as a collaborative group effort. This was part of the learning process.</i></p><p>Absolutely. In fact, working in groups is a particularly difficult part of the learning process for some. Back in the day, we didn't have collaborative tools or change management systems. I remember working on a TCP Layer project with another student. We'd work on the code for a few hours, then I'd go home. I'd come in the next morning, and find an email saying "I kept at it until 11pm. I'll be around noon." Then I'd take a look at the code, and EVERYTHING had changed. (And I do mean everything.)</p><p>Learning how to collaborate successfully (and the pitfalls that can happen when you don't) were very useful skills for me once I entered the job market.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would venture that at least half of homework was done in study groups , sometimes just to bounce idea off each other , sometimes as a collaborative group effort .
This was part of the learning process.Absolutely .
In fact , working in groups is a particularly difficult part of the learning process for some .
Back in the day , we did n't have collaborative tools or change management systems .
I remember working on a TCP Layer project with another student .
We 'd work on the code for a few hours , then I 'd go home .
I 'd come in the next morning , and find an email saying " I kept at it until 11pm .
I 'll be around noon .
" Then I 'd take a look at the code , and EVERYTHING had changed .
( And I do mean everything .
) Learning how to collaborate successfully ( and the pitfalls that can happen when you do n't ) were very useful skills for me once I entered the job market .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would venture that at least half of homework was done in study groups, sometimes just to bounce idea off each other, sometimes as a collaborative group effort.
This was part of the learning process.Absolutely.
In fact, working in groups is a particularly difficult part of the learning process for some.
Back in the day, we didn't have collaborative tools or change management systems.
I remember working on a TCP Layer project with another student.
We'd work on the code for a few hours, then I'd go home.
I'd come in the next morning, and find an email saying "I kept at it until 11pm.
I'll be around noon.
" Then I'd take a look at the code, and EVERYTHING had changed.
(And I do mean everything.
)Learning how to collaborate successfully (and the pitfalls that can happen when you don't) were very useful skills for me once I entered the job market.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31124182</id>
	<title>Re:Half of the story.</title>
	<author>masmullin</author>
	<datestamp>1265994420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>been there man.  Try doing a writing class with a group of ESL kids... jesus fucking christ!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>been there man .
Try doing a writing class with a group of ESL kids... jesus fucking christ !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>been there man.
Try doing a writing class with a group of ESL kids... jesus fucking christ!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111928</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112488</id>
	<title>when i was a TA...</title>
	<author>buddyglass</author>
	<datestamp>1265987940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Some people did some pretty dumb cheating.  Dumb as in easily caught.  But it was a intro class that was mainly taken by non-CS majors, so maybe that's to be expected.  One guy submitted a programming assignment that was identical to another student's except for the variable names.  Actually, now that I think of it, maybe he didn't even change those.  Then he had the gall to argue with me about how it was legit.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Some people did some pretty dumb cheating .
Dumb as in easily caught .
But it was a intro class that was mainly taken by non-CS majors , so maybe that 's to be expected .
One guy submitted a programming assignment that was identical to another student 's except for the variable names .
Actually , now that I think of it , maybe he did n't even change those .
Then he had the gall to argue with me about how it was legit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Some people did some pretty dumb cheating.
Dumb as in easily caught.
But it was a intro class that was mainly taken by non-CS majors, so maybe that's to be expected.
One guy submitted a programming assignment that was identical to another student's except for the variable names.
Actually, now that I think of it, maybe he didn't even change those.
Then he had the gall to argue with me about how it was legit.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112878</id>
	<title>Re:Very easy, and very easy to get caught</title>
	<author>Kryptikmo</author>
	<datestamp>1265989620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I teach an entry-level computing class in a large European university. So long as it doesn't comprise the entire assessment, students sitting together and working the lab out is a good thing, I think. It's how most of the real world works, after all. You need to have some individual assessment, but working in small study groups to crack a problem is probably the best way to learn. Having the peer-pressure to do the work, and to contribute to the group, can really encourage a student to surpass the effort that they may have been happy with individually.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I teach an entry-level computing class in a large European university .
So long as it does n't comprise the entire assessment , students sitting together and working the lab out is a good thing , I think .
It 's how most of the real world works , after all .
You need to have some individual assessment , but working in small study groups to crack a problem is probably the best way to learn .
Having the peer-pressure to do the work , and to contribute to the group , can really encourage a student to surpass the effort that they may have been happy with individually .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I teach an entry-level computing class in a large European university.
So long as it doesn't comprise the entire assessment, students sitting together and working the lab out is a good thing, I think.
It's how most of the real world works, after all.
You need to have some individual assessment, but working in small study groups to crack a problem is probably the best way to learn.
Having the peer-pressure to do the work, and to contribute to the group, can really encourage a student to surpass the effort that they may have been happy with individually.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113488</id>
	<title>Re:Very easy, and very easy to get caught</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265992380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>ThinkingInBinary says:</p><p><div class="quote"><p>I'd really like to see the penalty for cheating to be an immediate failure in the course, if not <b>expulsion</b>.</p></div><p>I think jaywalking should be punished with a shot to the head, delivered in the local football stadium.</p><p>Seriously, haven't you done anything stupid in college? This zero-tolerance mentality is starting to sound like "eye for an eye", and we know what Ghandi said about that.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>ThinkingInBinary says : I 'd really like to see the penalty for cheating to be an immediate failure in the course , if not expulsion.I think jaywalking should be punished with a shot to the head , delivered in the local football stadium.Seriously , have n't you done anything stupid in college ?
This zero-tolerance mentality is starting to sound like " eye for an eye " , and we know what Ghandi said about that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>ThinkingInBinary says:I'd really like to see the penalty for cheating to be an immediate failure in the course, if not expulsion.I think jaywalking should be punished with a shot to the head, delivered in the local football stadium.Seriously, haven't you done anything stupid in college?
This zero-tolerance mentality is starting to sound like "eye for an eye", and we know what Ghandi said about that.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112258</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>TheNinjaroach</author>
	<datestamp>1265986620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Need a report that's "like this one except for..."? Take the code for that report and add some mods and there ya go.</p></div><p>Dear god, anything but a copy and paste programmer.  We had one here and the results and the results are devastating.  Giant swaths of repetitive code pasted in large blocks, all mangled (I mean 'modified') in their own way.  It's obvious the guy had no clue what he was doing and it's even harder to understand what his code is doing because so much of it is completely unnecessary.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Your manager would consider you an idiot if you started each project from scratch, re-writing all the functions and methods that already exist in other applications and have perhaps already gone through rigorous QA.</p></div><p>Sure, but building a reusable code base is something I would hardly consider cheating.  Building proper and efficient classes and then leveraging them to handle 80\% of your work takes experience that you cannot obtain by cheating.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Need a report that 's " like this one except for... " ?
Take the code for that report and add some mods and there ya go.Dear god , anything but a copy and paste programmer .
We had one here and the results and the results are devastating .
Giant swaths of repetitive code pasted in large blocks , all mangled ( I mean 'modified ' ) in their own way .
It 's obvious the guy had no clue what he was doing and it 's even harder to understand what his code is doing because so much of it is completely unnecessary.Your manager would consider you an idiot if you started each project from scratch , re-writing all the functions and methods that already exist in other applications and have perhaps already gone through rigorous QA.Sure , but building a reusable code base is something I would hardly consider cheating .
Building proper and efficient classes and then leveraging them to handle 80 \ % of your work takes experience that you can not obtain by cheating .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Need a report that's "like this one except for..."?
Take the code for that report and add some mods and there ya go.Dear god, anything but a copy and paste programmer.
We had one here and the results and the results are devastating.
Giant swaths of repetitive code pasted in large blocks, all mangled (I mean 'modified') in their own way.
It's obvious the guy had no clue what he was doing and it's even harder to understand what his code is doing because so much of it is completely unnecessary.Your manager would consider you an idiot if you started each project from scratch, re-writing all the functions and methods that already exist in other applications and have perhaps already gone through rigorous QA.Sure, but building a reusable code base is something I would hardly consider cheating.
Building proper and efficient classes and then leveraging them to handle 80\% of your work takes experience that you cannot obtain by cheating.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113474</id>
	<title>CS Students Please Cheat</title>
	<author>codepunk</author>
	<datestamp>1265992380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> Cheat if you must but remember that cheating is not going to work when you are competing against me for that job.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Cheat if you must but remember that cheating is not going to work when you are competing against me for that job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> Cheat if you must but remember that cheating is not going to work when you are competing against me for that job.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115824</id>
	<title>Re:No outside help ?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266001260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; If you didn't get the concept in class, you are out of luck, that's it ?<br>Talk to your professors and teaching assistants.</p><p>Do NOT talk to someone else who took the class a year or two ago, because they've since moved way on, don't remember exactly where they were in the original class, and it's all trivial to them now. A cheater (in an intro class, at least) who words things correctly will basically be able to get someone to do the work for them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; If you did n't get the concept in class , you are out of luck , that 's it ? Talk to your professors and teaching assistants.Do NOT talk to someone else who took the class a year or two ago , because they 've since moved way on , do n't remember exactly where they were in the original class , and it 's all trivial to them now .
A cheater ( in an intro class , at least ) who words things correctly will basically be able to get someone to do the work for them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; If you didn't get the concept in class, you are out of luck, that's it ?Talk to your professors and teaching assistants.Do NOT talk to someone else who took the class a year or two ago, because they've since moved way on, don't remember exactly where they were in the original class, and it's all trivial to them now.
A cheater (in an intro class, at least) who words things correctly will basically be able to get someone to do the work for them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112322</id>
	<title>Georgia Tech</title>
	<author>gtarget</author>
	<datestamp>1265986920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I am a student at GT, and the MATLAB class that all the Engineering majors have to take is rampant with cheating. Out of a class of 100 people maybe half that do the assignment, they just get some 'smart' kid to do it and they all just submit the exact same code (minus changing their name) - the instructors don't even bother to look for cheating. However, in the CS dept, in the classes, the TA's often will read your code, so you aren't really able to get away with it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I am a student at GT , and the MATLAB class that all the Engineering majors have to take is rampant with cheating .
Out of a class of 100 people maybe half that do the assignment , they just get some 'smart ' kid to do it and they all just submit the exact same code ( minus changing their name ) - the instructors do n't even bother to look for cheating .
However , in the CS dept , in the classes , the TA 's often will read your code , so you are n't really able to get away with it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am a student at GT, and the MATLAB class that all the Engineering majors have to take is rampant with cheating.
Out of a class of 100 people maybe half that do the assignment, they just get some 'smart' kid to do it and they all just submit the exact same code (minus changing their name) - the instructors don't even bother to look for cheating.
However, in the CS dept, in the classes, the TA's often will read your code, so you aren't really able to get away with it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113296</id>
	<title>Re:Very easy, and very easy to get caught</title>
	<author>ColoradoAuthor</author>
	<datestamp>1265991660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The surprising dark side of automatic failure/expulsion: it can discourage the institution from investigating accusations of widespread cheating.
</p><p>
True story 1: TA'ing at an institution with a mandatory-failure policy, I noticed two students copying each others' assignments.  Thing was, they were mid-career professionals married to one another.  What to do?
</p><p>
True story 2: Friends taking an "introduction to computers for business majors" class came to me for tutoring.  The assignments were something like "Week 1: Write a gradebook program using file I/O and arrays; Week 2: Write a solitaire game using linked lists; Week 3: Write a tree sort using recursion; Week 4: Add a column of 5 numbers using Excel."  Remember, this was for folks who were at the "What is a text file and why would I want to save one?" stage (as evidenced by the Week 4 assignment)! The assignments were identical from semester to semester, and the majority of students--especially the Greeks--were getting A's on these assignments.
</p><p>
It was obvious to me that there was only one way for students to succeed in the course: widespread cheating.  Visiting the computer lab, it was easy to visually observe the cheating.  So I went to the dean.  Accepting my story would have meant a big investigation and ultimately the automatic expulsion of a large fraction of the student body, so I was abruptly informed that they would not tolerate baseless allegations of "such a serious nature." Action would be taken only if I could supply incontrovertible proof, including specific names and dates, and only if I would personally testify against each accused student at the hearings. (They did, however, change the assignments the next semester.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The surprising dark side of automatic failure/expulsion : it can discourage the institution from investigating accusations of widespread cheating .
True story 1 : TA'ing at an institution with a mandatory-failure policy , I noticed two students copying each others ' assignments .
Thing was , they were mid-career professionals married to one another .
What to do ?
True story 2 : Friends taking an " introduction to computers for business majors " class came to me for tutoring .
The assignments were something like " Week 1 : Write a gradebook program using file I/O and arrays ; Week 2 : Write a solitaire game using linked lists ; Week 3 : Write a tree sort using recursion ; Week 4 : Add a column of 5 numbers using Excel .
" Remember , this was for folks who were at the " What is a text file and why would I want to save one ?
" stage ( as evidenced by the Week 4 assignment ) !
The assignments were identical from semester to semester , and the majority of students--especially the Greeks--were getting A 's on these assignments .
It was obvious to me that there was only one way for students to succeed in the course : widespread cheating .
Visiting the computer lab , it was easy to visually observe the cheating .
So I went to the dean .
Accepting my story would have meant a big investigation and ultimately the automatic expulsion of a large fraction of the student body , so I was abruptly informed that they would not tolerate baseless allegations of " such a serious nature .
" Action would be taken only if I could supply incontrovertible proof , including specific names and dates , and only if I would personally testify against each accused student at the hearings .
( They did , however , change the assignments the next semester .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The surprising dark side of automatic failure/expulsion: it can discourage the institution from investigating accusations of widespread cheating.
True story 1: TA'ing at an institution with a mandatory-failure policy, I noticed two students copying each others' assignments.
Thing was, they were mid-career professionals married to one another.
What to do?
True story 2: Friends taking an "introduction to computers for business majors" class came to me for tutoring.
The assignments were something like "Week 1: Write a gradebook program using file I/O and arrays; Week 2: Write a solitaire game using linked lists; Week 3: Write a tree sort using recursion; Week 4: Add a column of 5 numbers using Excel.
"  Remember, this was for folks who were at the "What is a text file and why would I want to save one?
" stage (as evidenced by the Week 4 assignment)!
The assignments were identical from semester to semester, and the majority of students--especially the Greeks--were getting A's on these assignments.
It was obvious to me that there was only one way for students to succeed in the course: widespread cheating.
Visiting the computer lab, it was easy to visually observe the cheating.
So I went to the dean.
Accepting my story would have meant a big investigation and ultimately the automatic expulsion of a large fraction of the student body, so I was abruptly informed that they would not tolerate baseless allegations of "such a serious nature.
" Action would be taken only if I could supply incontrovertible proof, including specific names and dates, and only if I would personally testify against each accused student at the hearings.
(They did, however, change the assignments the next semester.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117170</id>
	<title>Re:No outside help ?</title>
	<author>Ephemeriis</author>
	<datestamp>1266007260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Plagiarize and copy are obvious, but I never heard of asking for help on homework being cheating. How else does one learn ?<br>If you didn't get the concept in class, you are out of luck, that's it ?</p></div><p>I come from a family that's big on education...</p><p>Both my parents have an assortment of degrees.  My mother was a college professor.  My sister and I have both got our own degrees.</p><p>And one of the things they always stressed to me about going to school was not that it taught you any particular bit of information - it taught you how to learn.</p><p>The most important thing you can get out of <b>any</b> degree is the ability to learn.  The ability to read a book for comprehension...  Pick out the relevant bits of a lecture...  Put together useful notes...  Look up the information that's missing...  Realize where the gaps are in your understanding...  And <b>ask the necessary questions</b> to fill in those gaps.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Plagiarize and copy are obvious , but I never heard of asking for help on homework being cheating .
How else does one learn ? If you did n't get the concept in class , you are out of luck , that 's it ? I come from a family that 's big on education...Both my parents have an assortment of degrees .
My mother was a college professor .
My sister and I have both got our own degrees.And one of the things they always stressed to me about going to school was not that it taught you any particular bit of information - it taught you how to learn.The most important thing you can get out of any degree is the ability to learn .
The ability to read a book for comprehension... Pick out the relevant bits of a lecture... Put together useful notes... Look up the information that 's missing... Realize where the gaps are in your understanding... And ask the necessary questions to fill in those gaps .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Plagiarize and copy are obvious, but I never heard of asking for help on homework being cheating.
How else does one learn ?If you didn't get the concept in class, you are out of luck, that's it ?I come from a family that's big on education...Both my parents have an assortment of degrees.
My mother was a college professor.
My sister and I have both got our own degrees.And one of the things they always stressed to me about going to school was not that it taught you any particular bit of information - it taught you how to learn.The most important thing you can get out of any degree is the ability to learn.
The ability to read a book for comprehension...  Pick out the relevant bits of a lecture...  Put together useful notes...  Look up the information that's missing...  Realize where the gaps are in your understanding...  And ask the necessary questions to fill in those gaps.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31118186</id>
	<title>Re:Expelled</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265967060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Absolutely correct.  As a current instructor, I have been told (not hinted, not suggested) to go easy on the freshmen I teach.  Sure, there's an official policy and nobody is going to put it in writing. But the fact remains - short of behavior bordering on criminal, the student gets a slap on the wrist and the professor gets a bad review for being a hardass.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Absolutely correct .
As a current instructor , I have been told ( not hinted , not suggested ) to go easy on the freshmen I teach .
Sure , there 's an official policy and nobody is going to put it in writing .
But the fact remains - short of behavior bordering on criminal , the student gets a slap on the wrist and the professor gets a bad review for being a hardass .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Absolutely correct.
As a current instructor, I have been told (not hinted, not suggested) to go easy on the freshmen I teach.
Sure, there's an official policy and nobody is going to put it in writing.
But the fact remains - short of behavior bordering on criminal, the student gets a slap on the wrist and the professor gets a bad review for being a hardass.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112682</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113566</id>
	<title>Re:Not sure about that strategy...</title>
	<author>TheRaven64</author>
	<datestamp>1265992800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It seems to be what happens for the student caught cheating anyway.  They get 0 for the coursework, so they need t higher score in the final to get the same overall grade.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It seems to be what happens for the student caught cheating anyway .
They get 0 for the coursework , so they need t higher score in the final to get the same overall grade .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It seems to be what happens for the student caught cheating anyway.
They get 0 for the coursework, so they need t higher score in the final to get the same overall grade.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112118</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112428</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265987580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What do you suggest? That we teach cheating instead of programming?</p><p>Your reply is stupid, not insightful, and you know it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What do you suggest ?
That we teach cheating instead of programming ? Your reply is stupid , not insightful , and you know it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What do you suggest?
That we teach cheating instead of programming?Your reply is stupid, not insightful, and you know it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112968</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe cheating in CS is easy...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265990040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>... but also cheating in CS:S is not that difficult.</p><p>Valve should really stop those nasty cheaters.</p><p>Now that I've posted a reply, I'm going to RTFA.</p></div><p>I see what you did here.. good job.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>... but also cheating in CS : S is not that difficult.Valve should really stop those nasty cheaters.Now that I 've posted a reply , I 'm going to RTFA.I see what you did here.. good job .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... but also cheating in CS:S is not that difficult.Valve should really stop those nasty cheaters.Now that I've posted a reply, I'm going to RTFA.I see what you did here.. good job.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111926</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113304</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>steltho</author>
	<datestamp>1265991660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>In university my friend and I worked together on the same assignment. We were in different tutor groups so we believed it wouldn't be detectable. Indeed it wasn't but he got 80/100 and I got 40/100!</p></div><p>Actually, it sounds to me like you were caught.  Giving different grades to people who "worked together" is a way for the teacher to punish people for cheating, if he or she doesn't want to go through all the bureaucracy involved with making a formal accusation.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>In university my friend and I worked together on the same assignment .
We were in different tutor groups so we believed it would n't be detectable .
Indeed it was n't but he got 80/100 and I got 40/100 ! Actually , it sounds to me like you were caught .
Giving different grades to people who " worked together " is a way for the teacher to punish people for cheating , if he or she does n't want to go through all the bureaucracy involved with making a formal accusation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In university my friend and I worked together on the same assignment.
We were in different tutor groups so we believed it wouldn't be detectable.
Indeed it wasn't but he got 80/100 and I got 40/100!Actually, it sounds to me like you were caught.
Giving different grades to people who "worked together" is a way for the teacher to punish people for cheating, if he or she doesn't want to go through all the bureaucracy involved with making a formal accusation.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112126</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31135248</id>
	<title>How we detected cheating...</title>
	<author>Taed</author>
	<datestamp>1266171060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I was a TA for a few CS classes.

One method we used was to compile everyone's code and look at the size of the object file.  If two programs produced the same size object file, then it was most likely a case where someone copied code, but then changed variable names and comments.

Another easy method (which only works with smaller classes) was to have everyone come in to "demo" and explain their program.  The folks that cheated were not able to explain their work.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I was a TA for a few CS classes .
One method we used was to compile everyone 's code and look at the size of the object file .
If two programs produced the same size object file , then it was most likely a case where someone copied code , but then changed variable names and comments .
Another easy method ( which only works with smaller classes ) was to have everyone come in to " demo " and explain their program .
The folks that cheated were not able to explain their work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was a TA for a few CS classes.
One method we used was to compile everyone's code and look at the size of the object file.
If two programs produced the same size object file, then it was most likely a case where someone copied code, but then changed variable names and comments.
Another easy method (which only works with smaller classes) was to have everyone come in to "demo" and explain their program.
The folks that cheated were not able to explain their work.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112482</id>
	<title>Re:One word...</title>
	<author>quadelirus</author>
	<datestamp>1265987940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This is definitely a problem. I TAd for a class where example programs were released as Java class files. I showed the professor how decompiling the Java class could recover basically line for line his original code. There were also times where two students had the same bad errors and results but their code was obfuscated enough that you couldn't prove for sure that they were cheating. In my experience, however, the ones we felt might be cheating by working together were the ones who got the same wrong answers not the same right answers, so they ended up getting much lower grades without us having to do anything at all.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is definitely a problem .
I TAd for a class where example programs were released as Java class files .
I showed the professor how decompiling the Java class could recover basically line for line his original code .
There were also times where two students had the same bad errors and results but their code was obfuscated enough that you could n't prove for sure that they were cheating .
In my experience , however , the ones we felt might be cheating by working together were the ones who got the same wrong answers not the same right answers , so they ended up getting much lower grades without us having to do anything at all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is definitely a problem.
I TAd for a class where example programs were released as Java class files.
I showed the professor how decompiling the Java class could recover basically line for line his original code.
There were also times where two students had the same bad errors and results but their code was obfuscated enough that you couldn't prove for sure that they were cheating.
In my experience, however, the ones we felt might be cheating by working together were the ones who got the same wrong answers not the same right answers, so they ended up getting much lower grades without us having to do anything at all.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111888</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113972</id>
	<title>Re:Cheating is laziness...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265994300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> instead of third party independent testing organisations who are contracted to create unique material for each test.</p></div><p>I'm guessing you are referring to the rubbish coders that get churned out of india and the sand nigger countries.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>instead of third party independent testing organisations who are contracted to create unique material for each test.I 'm guessing you are referring to the rubbish coders that get churned out of india and the sand nigger countries .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> instead of third party independent testing organisations who are contracted to create unique material for each test.I'm guessing you are referring to the rubbish coders that get churned out of india and the sand nigger countries.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111934</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894</id>
	<title>Expelled</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265984340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just make the punishment for cheating sufficiently harsh.  You cheat.. you get kicked out. Simple.</p><p>I dunno about Stanford but when I went to school my CS classes (especially the earlier ones) were huge.  I never met most of my classmates.  I would be *extremely* pissed off to have my academic standing affected by someone else's cheating.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just make the punishment for cheating sufficiently harsh .
You cheat.. you get kicked out .
Simple.I dunno about Stanford but when I went to school my CS classes ( especially the earlier ones ) were huge .
I never met most of my classmates .
I would be * extremely * pissed off to have my academic standing affected by someone else 's cheating .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just make the punishment for cheating sufficiently harsh.
You cheat.. you get kicked out.
Simple.I dunno about Stanford but when I went to school my CS classes (especially the earlier ones) were huge.
I never met most of my classmates.
I would be *extremely* pissed off to have my academic standing affected by someone else's cheating.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112160</id>
	<title>CS</title>
	<author>sirber</author>
	<datestamp>1265986080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Always easy to cheat in Counter Strike<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</htmltext>
<tokenext>Always easy to cheat in Counter Strike ; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Always easy to cheat in Counter Strike ;)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112908</id>
	<title>Cutting and pasting code is cheating?</title>
	<author>jackhererUK</author>
	<datestamp>1265989800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If so my colleagues and I cheat every day on a professional basis. We have even taken this cheating to an even more efficient level by using things we call "libraries" where we simple re use code written by other people.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If so my colleagues and I cheat every day on a professional basis .
We have even taken this cheating to an even more efficient level by using things we call " libraries " where we simple re use code written by other people .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If so my colleagues and I cheat every day on a professional basis.
We have even taken this cheating to an even more efficient level by using things we call "libraries" where we simple re use code written by other people.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117022</id>
	<title>Complete recall of Academics</title>
	<author>hackus</author>
	<datestamp>1266006720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Which is what we need.  It is going to happen anyway, because the USA will not be able to fund Universities at the level we are right now for very much longer.<br>(We are within 10 years going to lose our reserve currency status.   I figure half of the cities will look like Detroit in about 15-20 years from now, unless we have a complete revolution of some sort.)</p><p>This idea, that you can take an exam to memorize facts and then apply them to contrived problems, and then if you do not do well, for the rest of your career or any career for that matter automatically prevents you from learning further, is really at fault here.   I would like to point out, all of the major players in science and technology from Newton (who at Cambridge was the most unremarkable student of all time.....C maybe even a D student....as well as Einstein which both where shut outs of the establishment.)</p><p>The whole test/exam to determine ones ability is just incidental argument, if you "cheated" or not.  The whole thing has to be thrown out.</p><p>Besides, the way science works, is you "cheat" by looking at nature or others work and you build off of others work with your own ideas.  Which, I would like to point out come from YOU, not anyone else.</p><p>Nothing ever in life will be a set of facts, from a contrived problem sitting there waiting for you to solve.</p><p>What we need is to get rid of test and exams, and replace them with peer review works or work based on merit on the college level so that your peers, your combined works on a topic of field, are recognized as a body of knowledge produced and of high enough quality for you to be granted a degree, by your peers.</p><p>In this context, you will be given projects to do, or work on with your peers, and then you will defend them with questions from your peers about your work.  Typically these would be projects that look at unsolved problems in computer science (if you think your really above average.)</p><p>It is INCREDIBLY HARD to cheat in a environment like this, much harder than the test memorize exam crap we have now.</p><p>Besides, that is how the world works and that is how good science and learning actually works.</p><p>-Hackus</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Which is what we need .
It is going to happen anyway , because the USA will not be able to fund Universities at the level we are right now for very much longer .
( We are within 10 years going to lose our reserve currency status .
I figure half of the cities will look like Detroit in about 15-20 years from now , unless we have a complete revolution of some sort .
) This idea , that you can take an exam to memorize facts and then apply them to contrived problems , and then if you do not do well , for the rest of your career or any career for that matter automatically prevents you from learning further , is really at fault here .
I would like to point out , all of the major players in science and technology from Newton ( who at Cambridge was the most unremarkable student of all time.....C maybe even a D student....as well as Einstein which both where shut outs of the establishment .
) The whole test/exam to determine ones ability is just incidental argument , if you " cheated " or not .
The whole thing has to be thrown out.Besides , the way science works , is you " cheat " by looking at nature or others work and you build off of others work with your own ideas .
Which , I would like to point out come from YOU , not anyone else.Nothing ever in life will be a set of facts , from a contrived problem sitting there waiting for you to solve.What we need is to get rid of test and exams , and replace them with peer review works or work based on merit on the college level so that your peers , your combined works on a topic of field , are recognized as a body of knowledge produced and of high enough quality for you to be granted a degree , by your peers.In this context , you will be given projects to do , or work on with your peers , and then you will defend them with questions from your peers about your work .
Typically these would be projects that look at unsolved problems in computer science ( if you think your really above average .
) It is INCREDIBLY HARD to cheat in a environment like this , much harder than the test memorize exam crap we have now.Besides , that is how the world works and that is how good science and learning actually works.-Hackus</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Which is what we need.
It is going to happen anyway, because the USA will not be able to fund Universities at the level we are right now for very much longer.
(We are within 10 years going to lose our reserve currency status.
I figure half of the cities will look like Detroit in about 15-20 years from now, unless we have a complete revolution of some sort.
)This idea, that you can take an exam to memorize facts and then apply them to contrived problems, and then if you do not do well, for the rest of your career or any career for that matter automatically prevents you from learning further, is really at fault here.
I would like to point out, all of the major players in science and technology from Newton (who at Cambridge was the most unremarkable student of all time.....C maybe even a D student....as well as Einstein which both where shut outs of the establishment.
)The whole test/exam to determine ones ability is just incidental argument, if you "cheated" or not.
The whole thing has to be thrown out.Besides, the way science works, is you "cheat" by looking at nature or others work and you build off of others work with your own ideas.
Which, I would like to point out come from YOU, not anyone else.Nothing ever in life will be a set of facts, from a contrived problem sitting there waiting for you to solve.What we need is to get rid of test and exams, and replace them with peer review works or work based on merit on the college level so that your peers, your combined works on a topic of field, are recognized as a body of knowledge produced and of high enough quality for you to be granted a degree, by your peers.In this context, you will be given projects to do, or work on with your peers, and then you will defend them with questions from your peers about your work.
Typically these would be projects that look at unsolved problems in computer science (if you think your really above average.
)It is INCREDIBLY HARD to cheat in a environment like this, much harder than the test memorize exam crap we have now.Besides, that is how the world works and that is how good science and learning actually works.-Hackus</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113066</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265990640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>In university my friend and I worked together on the same assignment. We were in different tutor groups so we believed it wouldn't be detectable. Indeed it wasn't but he got 80/100 and I got 40/100! Mother f$@\%^&amp;. It's not like I could complain about it but my friend thoroughly enjoyed it.</p></div><p>Did that once for a report in a class. Everyone had the same problem to solve so it shouldn't have been any surprise that a lot of students worked together and the calculations could only be done so many ways. Still I managed to get a higher score on it than everyone else I worked with because while we all had the same math and results, my written explanations of what was going on were much better.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>In university my friend and I worked together on the same assignment .
We were in different tutor groups so we believed it would n't be detectable .
Indeed it was n't but he got 80/100 and I got 40/100 !
Mother f $ @ \ % ^ &amp; .
It 's not like I could complain about it but my friend thoroughly enjoyed it.Did that once for a report in a class .
Everyone had the same problem to solve so it should n't have been any surprise that a lot of students worked together and the calculations could only be done so many ways .
Still I managed to get a higher score on it than everyone else I worked with because while we all had the same math and results , my written explanations of what was going on were much better .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In university my friend and I worked together on the same assignment.
We were in different tutor groups so we believed it wouldn't be detectable.
Indeed it wasn't but he got 80/100 and I got 40/100!
Mother f$@\%^&amp;.
It's not like I could complain about it but my friend thoroughly enjoyed it.Did that once for a report in a class.
Everyone had the same problem to solve so it shouldn't have been any surprise that a lot of students worked together and the calculations could only be done so many ways.
Still I managed to get a higher score on it than everyone else I worked with because while we all had the same math and results, my written explanations of what was going on were much better.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112126</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31116716</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266005100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is so much bullshit...</p><p>My son and I have been programming together for years.  We have the same syntactic style (indentation, spaces, etc.) and the same penchant for single variable names (integers begin with h, then i,j,k,...; floats with a,b,c... etc).  We have similar habits of thought and approaches to algorithm design/analysis, and choose short, marginally descriptive, single-syllable names for functions.  It is not uncommon for us to produce symbol-for-symbol the same code in simple situations even though there was no collaboration.  To penalize someone based on the *presumption* of copying is just bullshit.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is so much bullshit...My son and I have been programming together for years .
We have the same syntactic style ( indentation , spaces , etc .
) and the same penchant for single variable names ( integers begin with h , then i,j,k,... ; floats with a,b,c... etc ) . We have similar habits of thought and approaches to algorithm design/analysis , and choose short , marginally descriptive , single-syllable names for functions .
It is not uncommon for us to produce symbol-for-symbol the same code in simple situations even though there was no collaboration .
To penalize someone based on the * presumption * of copying is just bullshit .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is so much bullshit...My son and I have been programming together for years.
We have the same syntactic style (indentation, spaces, etc.
) and the same penchant for single variable names (integers begin with h, then i,j,k,...; floats with a,b,c... etc).  We have similar habits of thought and approaches to algorithm design/analysis, and choose short, marginally descriptive, single-syllable names for functions.
It is not uncommon for us to produce symbol-for-symbol the same code in simple situations even though there was no collaboration.
To penalize someone based on the *presumption* of copying is just bullshit.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112868</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113676</id>
	<title>Simple Rule</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265993220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My CS department had a very simple rule:</p><p>If you can find code to do the assignment online (or anywhere else for that matter), feel free to use it, but you must cite your sources. As CS revolves around the re-use of code (and a huge part of CS teaching is dedicated to learning how to write re-usable code), they put the onus on the Professors to create assignments that required more then just copy and paste.</p><p>In my 4 years I only had 2 of well more then 100 assignments where the entire solution already existed online.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My CS department had a very simple rule : If you can find code to do the assignment online ( or anywhere else for that matter ) , feel free to use it , but you must cite your sources .
As CS revolves around the re-use of code ( and a huge part of CS teaching is dedicated to learning how to write re-usable code ) , they put the onus on the Professors to create assignments that required more then just copy and paste.In my 4 years I only had 2 of well more then 100 assignments where the entire solution already existed online .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My CS department had a very simple rule:If you can find code to do the assignment online (or anywhere else for that matter), feel free to use it, but you must cite your sources.
As CS revolves around the re-use of code (and a huge part of CS teaching is dedicated to learning how to write re-usable code), they put the onus on the Professors to create assignments that required more then just copy and paste.In my 4 years I only had 2 of well more then 100 assignments where the entire solution already existed online.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112596</id>
	<title>Re:So funny..</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265988480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>it would be more work to re-engineer somebody else's code to avoid detection than to just write it from scratch.</p></div><p>Very true.  I've been a TA in CS at a well-known university, and it's surprising how many students don't realize how easy it is to catch cheaters.</p><p>Much of our work is cooperative--either explicitly group work, or of the "you can talk with friends about the ideas or help them debug, but write it up yourself" variety.  In addition, the TAs are available for any questions (and don't mind helping you--really!).  So, it's really not that hard to do the work honestly and do ok.  Maybe you won't do great, but you'll do ok.</p><p>But I never saw the people who ended up cheating during office hours, or saw other signs that they were putting forth any effort to actually learn.  So I don't think cheating is a matter of ability so much as laziness.  The issue, as parent rightly points out, is that while it's certainly possible to cheat in an undetectable manner, doing so requires at least as much work as doing the assignment.  And if someone is cheating due to laziness in the first place, they often don't put much effort into cheating, and it's very, very easy to catch them.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>If you are too stupid to realize that when you hand in plagiarized code, you aren't taking a *risk* that you will be caught, you are engaging in the certainty that you will be caught, then you don't deserve to be at a university of this caliber.</p></div><p>I'd agree, but sadly the full consequences don't always filter through, because departments and institutions make it hard.  One of my students once blatantly cheated on a large final project.  As a TA, I would have supported very harsh penalties.  I was a bit let down when the professor gave a lesser penalty...and mentioned the reason for it to me:  ultimately, if the professor tried to institute a penalty with long-lasting academic effects, it would mean a ton of paperwork and annoyance on the professor's part.  I don't blame the professor for this (since I know how much he really had going on at the time), but I think the department should have made it a bit easier for people to deal with cheaters.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>it would be more work to re-engineer somebody else 's code to avoid detection than to just write it from scratch.Very true .
I 've been a TA in CS at a well-known university , and it 's surprising how many students do n't realize how easy it is to catch cheaters.Much of our work is cooperative--either explicitly group work , or of the " you can talk with friends about the ideas or help them debug , but write it up yourself " variety .
In addition , the TAs are available for any questions ( and do n't mind helping you--really ! ) .
So , it 's really not that hard to do the work honestly and do ok. Maybe you wo n't do great , but you 'll do ok.But I never saw the people who ended up cheating during office hours , or saw other signs that they were putting forth any effort to actually learn .
So I do n't think cheating is a matter of ability so much as laziness .
The issue , as parent rightly points out , is that while it 's certainly possible to cheat in an undetectable manner , doing so requires at least as much work as doing the assignment .
And if someone is cheating due to laziness in the first place , they often do n't put much effort into cheating , and it 's very , very easy to catch them.If you are too stupid to realize that when you hand in plagiarized code , you are n't taking a * risk * that you will be caught , you are engaging in the certainty that you will be caught , then you do n't deserve to be at a university of this caliber.I 'd agree , but sadly the full consequences do n't always filter through , because departments and institutions make it hard .
One of my students once blatantly cheated on a large final project .
As a TA , I would have supported very harsh penalties .
I was a bit let down when the professor gave a lesser penalty...and mentioned the reason for it to me : ultimately , if the professor tried to institute a penalty with long-lasting academic effects , it would mean a ton of paperwork and annoyance on the professor 's part .
I do n't blame the professor for this ( since I know how much he really had going on at the time ) , but I think the department should have made it a bit easier for people to deal with cheaters .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>it would be more work to re-engineer somebody else's code to avoid detection than to just write it from scratch.Very true.
I've been a TA in CS at a well-known university, and it's surprising how many students don't realize how easy it is to catch cheaters.Much of our work is cooperative--either explicitly group work, or of the "you can talk with friends about the ideas or help them debug, but write it up yourself" variety.
In addition, the TAs are available for any questions (and don't mind helping you--really!).
So, it's really not that hard to do the work honestly and do ok.  Maybe you won't do great, but you'll do ok.But I never saw the people who ended up cheating during office hours, or saw other signs that they were putting forth any effort to actually learn.
So I don't think cheating is a matter of ability so much as laziness.
The issue, as parent rightly points out, is that while it's certainly possible to cheat in an undetectable manner, doing so requires at least as much work as doing the assignment.
And if someone is cheating due to laziness in the first place, they often don't put much effort into cheating, and it's very, very easy to catch them.If you are too stupid to realize that when you hand in plagiarized code, you aren't taking a *risk* that you will be caught, you are engaging in the certainty that you will be caught, then you don't deserve to be at a university of this caliber.I'd agree, but sadly the full consequences don't always filter through, because departments and institutions make it hard.
One of my students once blatantly cheated on a large final project.
As a TA, I would have supported very harsh penalties.
I was a bit let down when the professor gave a lesser penalty...and mentioned the reason for it to me:  ultimately, if the professor tried to institute a penalty with long-lasting academic effects, it would mean a ton of paperwork and annoyance on the professor's part.
I don't blame the professor for this (since I know how much he really had going on at the time), but I think the department should have made it a bit easier for people to deal with cheaters.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112022</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112170</id>
	<title>dont fail students for cheating</title>
	<author>Nidi62</author>
	<datestamp>1265986080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You dont fail students for cheating.  You fail them for getting caught.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You dont fail students for cheating .
You fail them for getting caught .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You dont fail students for cheating.
You fail them for getting caught.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112604</id>
	<title>Re:No outside help ?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265988480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Usually, when honor codes are involved, phrases like "outside help" or "unauthorized aid" are meant to be determinded by the professor per assignment. So, for homework, everything might be fair game short of CTRL-C + CTRL-V, then a project might have stricter rules, and a test maybe no outside help.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Usually , when honor codes are involved , phrases like " outside help " or " unauthorized aid " are meant to be determinded by the professor per assignment .
So , for homework , everything might be fair game short of CTRL-C + CTRL-V , then a project might have stricter rules , and a test maybe no outside help .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Usually, when honor codes are involved, phrases like "outside help" or "unauthorized aid" are meant to be determinded by the professor per assignment.
So, for homework, everything might be fair game short of CTRL-C + CTRL-V, then a project might have stricter rules, and a test maybe no outside help.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112368</id>
	<title>as a CS professor i caught several cheaters</title>
	<author>schleprock63</author>
	<datestamp>1265987220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>i encouraged collaboration in my programming assignments, but i was very clear in that the final work was an individual effort. in programming, it was rather easy to find people that were cheating, even if they tried to mask it by changing variable names. when the blocks of code line up, the formatting is identical, it's not hard to find the cheater. in the real world (of which i am now a part of) programmers do collaborate, but in the end, some individual needs to produce the end product, and if all they learned in school was to copy their friends work, they will be useless, IMHO.

schleprock</htmltext>
<tokenext>i encouraged collaboration in my programming assignments , but i was very clear in that the final work was an individual effort .
in programming , it was rather easy to find people that were cheating , even if they tried to mask it by changing variable names .
when the blocks of code line up , the formatting is identical , it 's not hard to find the cheater .
in the real world ( of which i am now a part of ) programmers do collaborate , but in the end , some individual needs to produce the end product , and if all they learned in school was to copy their friends work , they will be useless , IMHO .
schleprock</tokentext>
<sentencetext>i encouraged collaboration in my programming assignments, but i was very clear in that the final work was an individual effort.
in programming, it was rather easy to find people that were cheating, even if they tried to mask it by changing variable names.
when the blocks of code line up, the formatting is identical, it's not hard to find the cheater.
in the real world (of which i am now a part of) programmers do collaborate, but in the end, some individual needs to produce the end product, and if all they learned in school was to copy their friends work, they will be useless, IMHO.
schleprock</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113338</id>
	<title>Cheating was Rampant at CMU</title>
	<author>TheTyrannyOfForcedRe</author>
	<datestamp>1265991840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was disgusted by the cheating I saw during my time at CMU.  This was in the days before it was possible to get help on the Internet.  The web was still a curiosity.  What was available, however, was unlimited of free "help" for any female who wanted it.  Lonely and desperate CMU guys were all too happy to spend hours doing whatever it took to curry favor with women.  It was all available, everything from homework copying all they way to entire engineering/coding projects done for them and then explained afterward.</p><p>It wasn't even like this was hidden.  You could see it everywhere.  There were guys who would toll the computers labs (few people had personal computers then) for damsels in distress. My girlfriend at the time couldn't work in a lab without a constant streams of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zephyr\_(protocol)" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">Zephers</a> [wikipedia.org] asking if she needed help.</p><p>The whole thing made me sick.  There were people who would have killed to be able to attend a CMU engineering program and these were people shitting all over it.  They could care less about learning.</p><p>That was the beginning of my introduction to The Real World.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was disgusted by the cheating I saw during my time at CMU .
This was in the days before it was possible to get help on the Internet .
The web was still a curiosity .
What was available , however , was unlimited of free " help " for any female who wanted it .
Lonely and desperate CMU guys were all too happy to spend hours doing whatever it took to curry favor with women .
It was all available , everything from homework copying all they way to entire engineering/coding projects done for them and then explained afterward.It was n't even like this was hidden .
You could see it everywhere .
There were guys who would toll the computers labs ( few people had personal computers then ) for damsels in distress .
My girlfriend at the time could n't work in a lab without a constant streams of Zephers [ wikipedia.org ] asking if she needed help.The whole thing made me sick .
There were people who would have killed to be able to attend a CMU engineering program and these were people shitting all over it .
They could care less about learning.That was the beginning of my introduction to The Real World .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was disgusted by the cheating I saw during my time at CMU.
This was in the days before it was possible to get help on the Internet.
The web was still a curiosity.
What was available, however, was unlimited of free "help" for any female who wanted it.
Lonely and desperate CMU guys were all too happy to spend hours doing whatever it took to curry favor with women.
It was all available, everything from homework copying all they way to entire engineering/coding projects done for them and then explained afterward.It wasn't even like this was hidden.
You could see it everywhere.
There were guys who would toll the computers labs (few people had personal computers then) for damsels in distress.
My girlfriend at the time couldn't work in a lab without a constant streams of Zephers [wikipedia.org] asking if she needed help.The whole thing made me sick.
There were people who would have killed to be able to attend a CMU engineering program and these were people shitting all over it.
They could care less about learning.That was the beginning of my introduction to The Real World.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113708</id>
	<title>WTF !! CS == Computer Science ??</title>
	<author>AftanGustur</author>
	<datestamp>1265993340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Am I the only one who jumped to the article expecting to read about massive CounterStrike tournaments at Stanford ?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Am I the only one who jumped to the article expecting to read about massive CounterStrike tournaments at Stanford ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Am I the only one who jumped to the article expecting to read about massive CounterStrike tournaments at Stanford ?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112592</id>
	<title>I have actually quit a job because of cheating</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265988480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was being forced to hand over my research work to some friend of my bosses that was completely clueless so that he can finish his Master's Thesis on time. I quit instantly; the bosses cannot forgive it to me until today and don't understand why did I even object... And listening about arguments that the code I wrote is a property of the company had forced me to get deeply familiar with intellectual property law to defend myself. Just unbelievable...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was being forced to hand over my research work to some friend of my bosses that was completely clueless so that he can finish his Master 's Thesis on time .
I quit instantly ; the bosses can not forgive it to me until today and do n't understand why did I even object... And listening about arguments that the code I wrote is a property of the company had forced me to get deeply familiar with intellectual property law to defend myself .
Just unbelievable.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was being forced to hand over my research work to some friend of my bosses that was completely clueless so that he can finish his Master's Thesis on time.
I quit instantly; the bosses cannot forgive it to me until today and don't understand why did I even object... And listening about arguments that the code I wrote is a property of the company had forced me to get deeply familiar with intellectual property law to defend myself.
Just unbelievable...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112194</id>
	<title>Re:Of course it is easy!</title>
	<author>lxt</author>
	<datestamp>1265986260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think I disagree - the beauty of programming is everyone codes in a different way.

I taught entry-level CS. A simple java 'print "hello world" 10 times using a for loop' question may only have one solution, but dozens of stylistic variations. Square braces on the same line? Spaces between your commas? System.out.println() or System.out.print?

Cheating in CS is generally pretty easy to catch when somebody is just copying code, because it will be totally out of style with their usual work. The problem comes when someone is cheating to such an extent that *none* of their code is original!</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think I disagree - the beauty of programming is everyone codes in a different way .
I taught entry-level CS .
A simple java 'print " hello world " 10 times using a for loop ' question may only have one solution , but dozens of stylistic variations .
Square braces on the same line ?
Spaces between your commas ?
System.out.println ( ) or System.out.print ?
Cheating in CS is generally pretty easy to catch when somebody is just copying code , because it will be totally out of style with their usual work .
The problem comes when someone is cheating to such an extent that * none * of their code is original !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think I disagree - the beauty of programming is everyone codes in a different way.
I taught entry-level CS.
A simple java 'print "hello world" 10 times using a for loop' question may only have one solution, but dozens of stylistic variations.
Square braces on the same line?
Spaces between your commas?
System.out.println() or System.out.print?
Cheating in CS is generally pretty easy to catch when somebody is just copying code, because it will be totally out of style with their usual work.
The problem comes when someone is cheating to such an extent that *none* of their code is original!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111996</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112500</id>
	<title>Re:Cheating is laziness...</title>
	<author>quadelirus</author>
	<datestamp>1265988060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You are assuming that downloading pre-existing code is the only type of cheating. It is also cheating for two students to work together to come up with the same code (and one of them obfuscates it after they are done). This type of cheating is not created out of instructor laziness. It is only on the shoulders of the students.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You are assuming that downloading pre-existing code is the only type of cheating .
It is also cheating for two students to work together to come up with the same code ( and one of them obfuscates it after they are done ) .
This type of cheating is not created out of instructor laziness .
It is only on the shoulders of the students .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You are assuming that downloading pre-existing code is the only type of cheating.
It is also cheating for two students to work together to come up with the same code (and one of them obfuscates it after they are done).
This type of cheating is not created out of instructor laziness.
It is only on the shoulders of the students.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111934</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112660</id>
	<title>One of my teachers hat a cool p.o.v.</title>
	<author>Hurricane78</author>
	<datestamp>1265988720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>He said that<br>1. it&rsquo;s not cheating that&rsquo;s the problem. Getting caught is.<br>and that<br>2. cheating takes a considerable effort. Who says that that isn&rsquo;t a worthwile strategy? ^^ (After all cheating is a popular strategy amongst lifeforms on earth.)</p><p>The best moment was, when a friend of mine dropped one of his five (!) small notes he wanted to use to cheat. (Bear in mind that he was the best student in our whole class level!)<br>The teacher noticed it, picked it up, and told him: &ldquo;Well, this contains nothing that is useful to cheat on this test. So I can&rsquo;t punish you.&rdquo; Then he handed him the note back.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>He said that1 .
it    s not cheating that    s the problem .
Getting caught is.and that2 .
cheating takes a considerable effort .
Who says that that isn    t a worthwile strategy ?
^ ^ ( After all cheating is a popular strategy amongst lifeforms on earth .
) The best moment was , when a friend of mine dropped one of his five ( !
) small notes he wanted to use to cheat .
( Bear in mind that he was the best student in our whole class level !
) The teacher noticed it , picked it up , and told him :    Well , this contains nothing that is useful to cheat on this test .
So I can    t punish you.    Then he handed him the note back .
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He said that1.
it’s not cheating that’s the problem.
Getting caught is.and that2.
cheating takes a considerable effort.
Who says that that isn’t a worthwile strategy?
^^ (After all cheating is a popular strategy amongst lifeforms on earth.
)The best moment was, when a friend of mine dropped one of his five (!
) small notes he wanted to use to cheat.
(Bear in mind that he was the best student in our whole class level!
)The teacher noticed it, picked it up, and told him: “Well, this contains nothing that is useful to cheat on this test.
So I can’t punish you.” Then he handed him the note back.
:)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113912</id>
	<title>Personal Anecdote</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265994060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I just recently finished my time at UIUC where I was about a B+/A- student (most of the time).  However, I had a friend who was just about a genius who at least at this time had a 4.0 GPA.  I don't know exactly how, but somehow another student in his class had gotten a copy of his code that was using on an assignment that they were both doing separately (I know for sure that my friend didn't give it to him).  This particular class required that you show off your program in front of a small group of students and a TA and explain how it works.</p><p>This person was showing off his stolen code, and another student in the class noticed that the guy didn't really seem to know how it worked.  Then later on in the presentation, he noticed that at the bottom of every page was a comment that said "Copyright 2008 by <em>My Friend's Name</em>."  The guy had stolen the code straight up and either didn't notice the comments or just didn't bother to change them.</p><p>The student who noticed the comments told me friend who looked at it and then realizing that it really was his code, notified the staff of the course.  The person who stole the code was forced to retake the class the following semester.  However, this wasn't the first time that he had been caught cheating, and he didn't even receive a failing grade on his transcripts but was simply told that he would have to retake it.  I thought that such a lenient punishment was ridiculous, especially for a repeat offender.  Anyway, that's what happened and my friend and I had a nice, although slightly aggravated, laugh at it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I just recently finished my time at UIUC where I was about a B + /A- student ( most of the time ) .
However , I had a friend who was just about a genius who at least at this time had a 4.0 GPA .
I do n't know exactly how , but somehow another student in his class had gotten a copy of his code that was using on an assignment that they were both doing separately ( I know for sure that my friend did n't give it to him ) .
This particular class required that you show off your program in front of a small group of students and a TA and explain how it works.This person was showing off his stolen code , and another student in the class noticed that the guy did n't really seem to know how it worked .
Then later on in the presentation , he noticed that at the bottom of every page was a comment that said " Copyright 2008 by My Friend 's Name .
" The guy had stolen the code straight up and either did n't notice the comments or just did n't bother to change them.The student who noticed the comments told me friend who looked at it and then realizing that it really was his code , notified the staff of the course .
The person who stole the code was forced to retake the class the following semester .
However , this was n't the first time that he had been caught cheating , and he did n't even receive a failing grade on his transcripts but was simply told that he would have to retake it .
I thought that such a lenient punishment was ridiculous , especially for a repeat offender .
Anyway , that 's what happened and my friend and I had a nice , although slightly aggravated , laugh at it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I just recently finished my time at UIUC where I was about a B+/A- student (most of the time).
However, I had a friend who was just about a genius who at least at this time had a 4.0 GPA.
I don't know exactly how, but somehow another student in his class had gotten a copy of his code that was using on an assignment that they were both doing separately (I know for sure that my friend didn't give it to him).
This particular class required that you show off your program in front of a small group of students and a TA and explain how it works.This person was showing off his stolen code, and another student in the class noticed that the guy didn't really seem to know how it worked.
Then later on in the presentation, he noticed that at the bottom of every page was a comment that said "Copyright 2008 by My Friend's Name.
"  The guy had stolen the code straight up and either didn't notice the comments or just didn't bother to change them.The student who noticed the comments told me friend who looked at it and then realizing that it really was his code, notified the staff of the course.
The person who stole the code was forced to retake the class the following semester.
However, this wasn't the first time that he had been caught cheating, and he didn't even receive a failing grade on his transcripts but was simply told that he would have to retake it.
I thought that such a lenient punishment was ridiculous, especially for a repeat offender.
Anyway, that's what happened and my friend and I had a nice, although slightly aggravated, laugh at it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112446</id>
	<title>Parse Tree Analytics</title>
	<author>gers0667</author>
	<datestamp>1265987700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Although I never saw it in action, my professor told us in our compilers class that they use a piece of software for the intro classes which compares the parse tree of the Java apps the students submitted and could show commonality between the programs.</p><p>Of course, you would see similarity because everyone was writing a similar program, but it would catch someone just renaming a pile of variables and changing comments.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Although I never saw it in action , my professor told us in our compilers class that they use a piece of software for the intro classes which compares the parse tree of the Java apps the students submitted and could show commonality between the programs.Of course , you would see similarity because everyone was writing a similar program , but it would catch someone just renaming a pile of variables and changing comments .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Although I never saw it in action, my professor told us in our compilers class that they use a piece of software for the intro classes which compares the parse tree of the Java apps the students submitted and could show commonality between the programs.Of course, you would see similarity because everyone was writing a similar program, but it would catch someone just renaming a pile of variables and changing comments.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31116396</id>
	<title>Long term cheaters</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1266003480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm a postdoc at the uni where I took my undergrad physics degree getting on for 10 years ago. Last year I found in one of the teaching labs a badly degraded, presumably many generations old copy, photocopy of a listing from one of my 1st year programming exercises. It was definitely mine as it still had my name in the comments block at the top. It made me wonder quite how many people have handed in my solution.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm a postdoc at the uni where I took my undergrad physics degree getting on for 10 years ago .
Last year I found in one of the teaching labs a badly degraded , presumably many generations old copy , photocopy of a listing from one of my 1st year programming exercises .
It was definitely mine as it still had my name in the comments block at the top .
It made me wonder quite how many people have handed in my solution .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm a postdoc at the uni where I took my undergrad physics degree getting on for 10 years ago.
Last year I found in one of the teaching labs a badly degraded, presumably many generations old copy, photocopy of a listing from one of my 1st year programming exercises.
It was definitely mine as it still had my name in the comments block at the top.
It made me wonder quite how many people have handed in my solution.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114710</id>
	<title>I coded a different method to avoid appearance</title>
	<author>sprior</author>
	<datestamp>1265996940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Back in my first college programming class (in the mid 80's) we were given an assignment which involved some simple graphical pattern matching (a don't break the ice game).  A friend of mine in the class and I had both studied graphics programming on our own so the first thing that came to mind for both of us was picking the basic patterns and rotating them to find matches.  But I knew that for a first programming class most people wouldn't be thinking that way, so if both of us turned in code that did that we'd be accused of cheating.  Of course we weren't cheating, it was the fact that we both thought that way that we were friends to begin with.  So I chose to instead code the program the less sophisticated way to avoid any accusations.  I'll admit it did bug me a little to hear the professor comment on his unique approach to the problem.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Back in my first college programming class ( in the mid 80 's ) we were given an assignment which involved some simple graphical pattern matching ( a do n't break the ice game ) .
A friend of mine in the class and I had both studied graphics programming on our own so the first thing that came to mind for both of us was picking the basic patterns and rotating them to find matches .
But I knew that for a first programming class most people would n't be thinking that way , so if both of us turned in code that did that we 'd be accused of cheating .
Of course we were n't cheating , it was the fact that we both thought that way that we were friends to begin with .
So I chose to instead code the program the less sophisticated way to avoid any accusations .
I 'll admit it did bug me a little to hear the professor comment on his unique approach to the problem .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Back in my first college programming class (in the mid 80's) we were given an assignment which involved some simple graphical pattern matching (a don't break the ice game).
A friend of mine in the class and I had both studied graphics programming on our own so the first thing that came to mind for both of us was picking the basic patterns and rotating them to find matches.
But I knew that for a first programming class most people wouldn't be thinking that way, so if both of us turned in code that did that we'd be accused of cheating.
Of course we weren't cheating, it was the fact that we both thought that way that we were friends to begin with.
So I chose to instead code the program the less sophisticated way to avoid any accusations.
I'll admit it did bug me a little to hear the professor comment on his unique approach to the problem.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114232</id>
	<title>Re:No outside help ?</title>
	<author>MrCrassic</author>
	<datestamp>1265995200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I was in an Engineering program (Stevens Institute in Hoboken), and I would venture that at least half of homework was done in study groups, sometimes just to bounce idea off each other, sometimes as a collaborative group effort. This was part of the learning process.</p></div><p>I'm a Computer Engineering student at the same school, and I know for a fact that cheating was rampant in the lower-level courses. The "study groups" that you mention, or at least the ones I partook in, consisted of 85\% procrastination and BS'ing and 15\% work, usually on the day of. I don't think too many people got caught, but those that did went through all kinds of scrutiny and suffering. Apparently, cheating is also popular amongst grad students here, though I can't speak for them as an undergraduate.</p><p>I do agree that an effective study group anywhere can go a LONG way towards getting good marks.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I was in an Engineering program ( Stevens Institute in Hoboken ) , and I would venture that at least half of homework was done in study groups , sometimes just to bounce idea off each other , sometimes as a collaborative group effort .
This was part of the learning process.I 'm a Computer Engineering student at the same school , and I know for a fact that cheating was rampant in the lower-level courses .
The " study groups " that you mention , or at least the ones I partook in , consisted of 85 \ % procrastination and BS'ing and 15 \ % work , usually on the day of .
I do n't think too many people got caught , but those that did went through all kinds of scrutiny and suffering .
Apparently , cheating is also popular amongst grad students here , though I ca n't speak for them as an undergraduate.I do agree that an effective study group anywhere can go a LONG way towards getting good marks .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was in an Engineering program (Stevens Institute in Hoboken), and I would venture that at least half of homework was done in study groups, sometimes just to bounce idea off each other, sometimes as a collaborative group effort.
This was part of the learning process.I'm a Computer Engineering student at the same school, and I know for a fact that cheating was rampant in the lower-level courses.
The "study groups" that you mention, or at least the ones I partook in, consisted of 85\% procrastination and BS'ing and 15\% work, usually on the day of.
I don't think too many people got caught, but those that did went through all kinds of scrutiny and suffering.
Apparently, cheating is also popular amongst grad students here, though I can't speak for them as an undergraduate.I do agree that an effective study group anywhere can go a LONG way towards getting good marks.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113856</id>
	<title>Cheaters Lab</title>
	<author>madskyllz</author>
	<datestamp>1265993820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I used to work in the Computer Science Lab at a university in Illinois - Students would print extra copies of their programs to give to their friends, and I would literally watch them cheat right in front of me.<br> <br>
As a computer science student myself, I took offense to this.  I'm was going to be competing for a job with this person, and we have the same degree. Hell, he/she might have a better GPA than me, and can't write a C program to save their life, yet THEY would get a job, and not me.<br>
When I was the one pulling printouts, I would just shred them and tell them to GTFO.<br> <br>
Oh, and just in case your listening, unamed university in Illinois (I won't name names...EVERY university should learn from this)...you can't count on your students to chmod their files properly.  Do you know how many of your "Brightest" students were chronic greppers?<br> <br>
I can't tell you how many times I watched someone type:  find / | grep cpp &gt; OtherStudentsHomeWorkICanCheatFrom.txt</htmltext>
<tokenext>I used to work in the Computer Science Lab at a university in Illinois - Students would print extra copies of their programs to give to their friends , and I would literally watch them cheat right in front of me .
As a computer science student myself , I took offense to this .
I 'm was going to be competing for a job with this person , and we have the same degree .
Hell , he/she might have a better GPA than me , and ca n't write a C program to save their life , yet THEY would get a job , and not me .
When I was the one pulling printouts , I would just shred them and tell them to GTFO .
Oh , and just in case your listening , unamed university in Illinois ( I wo n't name names...EVERY university should learn from this ) ...you ca n't count on your students to chmod their files properly .
Do you know how many of your " Brightest " students were chronic greppers ?
I ca n't tell you how many times I watched someone type : find / | grep cpp &gt; OtherStudentsHomeWorkICanCheatFrom.txt</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I used to work in the Computer Science Lab at a university in Illinois - Students would print extra copies of their programs to give to their friends, and I would literally watch them cheat right in front of me.
As a computer science student myself, I took offense to this.
I'm was going to be competing for a job with this person, and we have the same degree.
Hell, he/she might have a better GPA than me, and can't write a C program to save their life, yet THEY would get a job, and not me.
When I was the one pulling printouts, I would just shred them and tell them to GTFO.
Oh, and just in case your listening, unamed university in Illinois (I won't name names...EVERY university should learn from this)...you can't count on your students to chmod their files properly.
Do you know how many of your "Brightest" students were chronic greppers?
I can't tell you how many times I watched someone type:  find / | grep cpp &gt; OtherStudentsHomeWorkICanCheatFrom.txt</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111996</id>
	<title>Of course it is easy!</title>
	<author>B5\_geek</author>
	<datestamp>1265985120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is how AND why computers work.<br>Simple and exact reproduction.</p><p>Another way to look at it:</p><p>There are only so many ways you can type:</p><p>10 print "Hello World!"<br>20 goto 10</p><p>(Yes folks that is the limit of my programming knowledge.  I busted my cherry on a C64.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is how AND why computers work.Simple and exact reproduction.Another way to look at it : There are only so many ways you can type : 10 print " Hello World !
" 20 goto 10 ( Yes folks that is the limit of my programming knowledge .
I busted my cherry on a C64 .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is how AND why computers work.Simple and exact reproduction.Another way to look at it:There are only so many ways you can type:10 print "Hello World!
"20 goto 10(Yes folks that is the limit of my programming knowledge.
I busted my cherry on a C64.
)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112136</id>
	<title>Re:Cheating is laziness...</title>
	<author>ThinkingInBinary</author>
	<datestamp>1265985900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Cheating is very easy to avoid but it does require educators to be willing to create assignments that they themselves didn't download or buy from a teaching website.</p></div></blockquote><blockquote><div><p>I would also like to add, that cheating is far worse in the US since the teachers grade the students instead of third party independent testing organisations who are contracted to create unique material for each test.</p></div></blockquote><p>...huh?!  If we're talking about university classes, the idea that anything other than perhaps the intro courses would use materials provided by some company (say, the textbook publisher) is absurd.  Also, what kind of a professor would outsource their tests to an independent organization?  How can they possibly know the course material well enough, and adjust for what's been covered during the semester, and such?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Cheating is very easy to avoid but it does require educators to be willing to create assignments that they themselves did n't download or buy from a teaching website.I would also like to add , that cheating is far worse in the US since the teachers grade the students instead of third party independent testing organisations who are contracted to create unique material for each test....huh ? !
If we 're talking about university classes , the idea that anything other than perhaps the intro courses would use materials provided by some company ( say , the textbook publisher ) is absurd .
Also , what kind of a professor would outsource their tests to an independent organization ?
How can they possibly know the course material well enough , and adjust for what 's been covered during the semester , and such ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Cheating is very easy to avoid but it does require educators to be willing to create assignments that they themselves didn't download or buy from a teaching website.I would also like to add, that cheating is far worse in the US since the teachers grade the students instead of third party independent testing organisations who are contracted to create unique material for each test....huh?!
If we're talking about university classes, the idea that anything other than perhaps the intro courses would use materials provided by some company (say, the textbook publisher) is absurd.
Also, what kind of a professor would outsource their tests to an independent organization?
How can they possibly know the course material well enough, and adjust for what's been covered during the semester, and such?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111934</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31124586</id>
	<title>Re:Yeah, it's very easy to spot.</title>
	<author>kbielefe</author>
	<datestamp>1265998980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wouldn't you get a lot of false positives for intro-level assignments compared that way?  There are only so many ways to write a simple program.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Would n't you get a lot of false positives for intro-level assignments compared that way ?
There are only so many ways to write a simple program .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wouldn't you get a lot of false positives for intro-level assignments compared that way?
There are only so many ways to write a simple program.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112174</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31116460</id>
	<title>Florida</title>
	<author>proslack</author>
	<datestamp>1266003720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>At public universities in Florida you simply get an FF (not just an F) for the course. Doesn't look to good on the resume - kind of like a dishonorable discharge - yes, you served, but you don't want to broadcast it. I've only had to give a couple, always in the large first or second year lectures, never in upperclass coursework.</htmltext>
<tokenext>At public universities in Florida you simply get an FF ( not just an F ) for the course .
Does n't look to good on the resume - kind of like a dishonorable discharge - yes , you served , but you do n't want to broadcast it .
I 've only had to give a couple , always in the large first or second year lectures , never in upperclass coursework .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At public universities in Florida you simply get an FF (not just an F) for the course.
Doesn't look to good on the resume - kind of like a dishonorable discharge - yes, you served, but you don't want to broadcast it.
I've only had to give a couple, always in the large first or second year lectures, never in upperclass coursework.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113186</id>
	<title>Re:Cheating is laziness...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265991120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>THis is a VERY insightful comment.  As an educator, I totally agree.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>THis is a VERY insightful comment .
As an educator , I totally agree .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>THis is a VERY insightful comment.
As an educator, I totally agree.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111934</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31121670</id>
	<title>Attention to detail is key...</title>
	<author>Excaliburszone</author>
	<datestamp>1265977920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was a TA for my university's CS department for a few years. There was this one semester where two students decided they were going to cheat off each other in Intro to Programming.</p><p>They might have pulled it off since they were in two different classes and had two different TAs doing the grading.</p><p>Except one of the berks decided he wasn't going to change anything in the copied project, not even in the file headers where the other student's name sat staring at me...</p><p>yeesh</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was a TA for my university 's CS department for a few years .
There was this one semester where two students decided they were going to cheat off each other in Intro to Programming.They might have pulled it off since they were in two different classes and had two different TAs doing the grading.Except one of the berks decided he was n't going to change anything in the copied project , not even in the file headers where the other student 's name sat staring at me...yeesh</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was a TA for my university's CS department for a few years.
There was this one semester where two students decided they were going to cheat off each other in Intro to Programming.They might have pulled it off since they were in two different classes and had two different TAs doing the grading.Except one of the berks decided he wasn't going to change anything in the copied project, not even in the file headers where the other student's name sat staring at me...yeesh</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112534</id>
	<title>Re:On The Other Hand</title>
	<author>silent\_artichoke</author>
	<datestamp>1265988240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>We had one here and the results and the results are devastating.</p></div><p>Good example!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>We had one here and the results and the results are devastating.Good example !
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We had one here and the results and the results are devastating.Good example!
:)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112258</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112784</id>
	<title>Throw their ass out of school</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265989200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It is easy. You cheat, it is proven, you through their ass out of school.</p><p>Why is this issue so complicated?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is easy .
You cheat , it is proven , you through their ass out of school.Why is this issue so complicated ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is easy.
You cheat, it is proven, you through their ass out of school.Why is this issue so complicated?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112610</id>
	<title>Re:So funny..</title>
	<author>plover</author>
	<datestamp>1265988480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You might have been tricked by your school, too.  Your similarity detector might have been a Mechanical Turk.</p><p>Are you sure the analysis tool was actually all-knowing and all-powerful?  Perhaps it was the T.A. grading the exams who noticed the plagiarism, but was told to give the credit for the detection to the analysis tool?  Perhaps the T.A. even generated the tool's output to convince you all that the tool was all-powerful and all-knowing.</p><p>Or do you know for a fact that they really expelled real students?  Did you consider that they might have hired a couple of "plants" with the intent of publicly humiliating and expelling them, and frightening the rest of you into believing that their code analysis tool was infallible when it was really just a bash or perl script written with indent, sort, diff, wc, crc32, and grep?  (Of course, I could probably make a pretty effective copy detection tool with just those components, at least effective enough to catch the cheaters who aren't even trying.)</p><p>Stage magicians, revivalist healers, psychics and mentalists use these tricks all the time to get their audiences to lower their guard, and to temporarily believe in something they would otherwise think is impossible.</p><p>Either way, it obviously made an impression on you as you are still quoting the story 14 years later.  So I'd say that whatever they did was effective, even if there is no proof that the tool actually did the task.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You might have been tricked by your school , too .
Your similarity detector might have been a Mechanical Turk.Are you sure the analysis tool was actually all-knowing and all-powerful ?
Perhaps it was the T.A .
grading the exams who noticed the plagiarism , but was told to give the credit for the detection to the analysis tool ?
Perhaps the T.A .
even generated the tool 's output to convince you all that the tool was all-powerful and all-knowing.Or do you know for a fact that they really expelled real students ?
Did you consider that they might have hired a couple of " plants " with the intent of publicly humiliating and expelling them , and frightening the rest of you into believing that their code analysis tool was infallible when it was really just a bash or perl script written with indent , sort , diff , wc , crc32 , and grep ?
( Of course , I could probably make a pretty effective copy detection tool with just those components , at least effective enough to catch the cheaters who are n't even trying .
) Stage magicians , revivalist healers , psychics and mentalists use these tricks all the time to get their audiences to lower their guard , and to temporarily believe in something they would otherwise think is impossible.Either way , it obviously made an impression on you as you are still quoting the story 14 years later .
So I 'd say that whatever they did was effective , even if there is no proof that the tool actually did the task .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You might have been tricked by your school, too.
Your similarity detector might have been a Mechanical Turk.Are you sure the analysis tool was actually all-knowing and all-powerful?
Perhaps it was the T.A.
grading the exams who noticed the plagiarism, but was told to give the credit for the detection to the analysis tool?
Perhaps the T.A.
even generated the tool's output to convince you all that the tool was all-powerful and all-knowing.Or do you know for a fact that they really expelled real students?
Did you consider that they might have hired a couple of "plants" with the intent of publicly humiliating and expelling them, and frightening the rest of you into believing that their code analysis tool was infallible when it was really just a bash or perl script written with indent, sort, diff, wc, crc32, and grep?
(Of course, I could probably make a pretty effective copy detection tool with just those components, at least effective enough to catch the cheaters who aren't even trying.
)Stage magicians, revivalist healers, psychics and mentalists use these tricks all the time to get their audiences to lower their guard, and to temporarily believe in something they would otherwise think is impossible.Either way, it obviously made an impression on you as you are still quoting the story 14 years later.
So I'd say that whatever they did was effective, even if there is no proof that the tool actually did the task.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112022</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112890</id>
	<title>Cheating?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265989680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>when I went to school, cheating meant expulsion/banishment if you were caught.You mean this has changed? It certainly explains a lot...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>when I went to school , cheating meant expulsion/banishment if you were caught.You mean this has changed ?
It certainly explains a lot.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>when I went to school, cheating meant expulsion/banishment if you were caught.You mean this has changed?
It certainly explains a lot...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112850</id>
	<title>beyond immoral</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265989500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"The number of honor code violations have prompted Professor Roberts to implement a new system. Describing this method as a &ldquo;collective incentive&rdquo; for students to maintain academic standards, the professor said he will add 5 percent for every honor-code violation in his class to the weight of the final exam, which is currently 15 percent of the class grade.</p><p>In other words, if one person cheats, the whole class will face more pressure on the final exam, because it will make up a greater portion of a person&rsquo;s grade. Whether the scorn of fellow students is a bigger deterrent to cheating than being personally disciplined by the university remains to be seen."</p><p>Punishing the innocent because some cheat is the very definition of an evil regime.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" The number of honor code violations have prompted Professor Roberts to implement a new system .
Describing this method as a    collective incentive    for students to maintain academic standards , the professor said he will add 5 percent for every honor-code violation in his class to the weight of the final exam , which is currently 15 percent of the class grade.In other words , if one person cheats , the whole class will face more pressure on the final exam , because it will make up a greater portion of a person    s grade .
Whether the scorn of fellow students is a bigger deterrent to cheating than being personally disciplined by the university remains to be seen .
" Punishing the innocent because some cheat is the very definition of an evil regime .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"The number of honor code violations have prompted Professor Roberts to implement a new system.
Describing this method as a “collective incentive” for students to maintain academic standards, the professor said he will add 5 percent for every honor-code violation in his class to the weight of the final exam, which is currently 15 percent of the class grade.In other words, if one person cheats, the whole class will face more pressure on the final exam, because it will make up a greater portion of a person’s grade.
Whether the scorn of fellow students is a bigger deterrent to cheating than being personally disciplined by the university remains to be seen.
"Punishing the innocent because some cheat is the very definition of an evil regime.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_55</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115824
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_6</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111926
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112968
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_29</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112118
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31124534
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_122</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112022
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112610
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_71</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112868
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114650
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_124</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31126010
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_119</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112228
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_94</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115218
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_19</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112868
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31120160
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_10</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112280
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_123</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111888
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112482
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_35</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112682
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117470
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_109</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111934
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112904
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_87</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31118668
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_58</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112078
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31120186
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_116</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112330
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_63</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112094
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113710
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_91</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111996
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112194
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_86</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111934
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113390
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_5</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113840
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_110</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113462
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_77</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117870
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_139</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31120232
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_48</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111934
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113186
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_53</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113194
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_27</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112126
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113066
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_129</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31116424
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_18</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111934
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112820
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_30</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111878
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113182
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_134</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117456
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_0</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112158
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31133016
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_32</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112094
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113380
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_92</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111934
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114336
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_17</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113296
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_108</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112682
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31124168
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_136</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111928
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113330
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_78</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111934
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114892
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_22</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112866
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31123226
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_113</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114498
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_85</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113878
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_56</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112526
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_47</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112972
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_103</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112022
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114368
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_50</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112868
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115382
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_75</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112094
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114566
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_137</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112022
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112596
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_46</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111878
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111960
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_128</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112118
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113566
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_131</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112868
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31116716
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_80</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112126
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115438
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_98</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112868
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114116
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_43</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31122436
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_127</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112470
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31118096
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_14</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111928
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117104
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_16</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112126
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115652
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_39</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112126
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113124
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117460
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_121</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112826
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114450
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_42</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113210
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_21</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111928
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115666
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_20</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112868
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31118826
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_67</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112868
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115166
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_95</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111998
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31124234
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_111</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112682
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31118186
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_9</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112842
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_11</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111928
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31124182
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_102</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112766
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_69</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115194
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31120330
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_72</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31129806
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_45</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111980
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114026
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_101</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113404
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_68</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114088
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_59</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112078
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31116836
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_62</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113170
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_126</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112296
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31118938
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_4</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111926
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31116516
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_36</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112126
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113304
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114166
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_38</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112884
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_96</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112402
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_120</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111934
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112136
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31118028
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_41</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112178
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31118476
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_12</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113214
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_26</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112868
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114040
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_117</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112094
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112814
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_28</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112126
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31122858
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_31</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112258
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115594
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_89</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111934
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112500
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_33</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112094
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114386
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_107</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112712
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_93</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112542
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_54</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113402
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115270
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_100</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114232
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_79</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111928
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31120678
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_70</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115452
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_114</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112328
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114596
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_61</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111934
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113972
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_84</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115326
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_3</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112428
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113166
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_57</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113006
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31129748
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_60</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113442
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_51</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112188
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113860
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_2</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112126
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115792
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_34</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112470
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117494
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_25</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112826
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114506
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_138</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112158
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114188
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_141</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111934
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113458
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_132</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117060
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_24</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111988
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113746
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_99</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112880
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_115</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112604
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_90</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112740
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31179944
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_15</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117170
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_106</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31118394
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_76</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112188
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117604
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_49</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112518
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_105</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115928
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_52</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111998
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113466
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_83</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111934
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112362
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113198
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_66</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112196
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_112</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112094
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114694
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_8</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31118192
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_133</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112868
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115790
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_82</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112258
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112534
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_1</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112118
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112632
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_73</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112174
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31124586
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_135</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112012
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112398
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_44</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112868
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113928
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_140</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112878
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_23</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112126
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114882
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_125</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112732
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_37</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112094
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31133922
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_130</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112868
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113776
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_40</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112856
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_97</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112094
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113244
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_13</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112272
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31124374
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_104</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112870
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_74</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113536
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31124410
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_118</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113436
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_65</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112156
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115050
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_88</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112118
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113278
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_7</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113156
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_81</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113488
</commentlist>
</thread>
<thread>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#thread_10_02_12_0514249_64</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112022
http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31116090
</commentlist>
</thread>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.8</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112022
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112610
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31116090
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112596
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114368
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.32</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111862
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111942
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112330
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112766
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112868
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115166
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114650
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113776
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31116716
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115790
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114040
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113928
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115382
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31120160
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31118826
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114116
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112078
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31120186
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31116836
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112012
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112398
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112402
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112178
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31118476
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112526
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112258
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115594
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112534
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112228
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112158
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31133016
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114188
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112542
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112428
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113166
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112126
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115438
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114882
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113066
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113304
----http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114166
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115792
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113124
----http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117460
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115652
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31122858
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.13</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111988
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113746
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.26</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111894
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117060
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112682
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31118186
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117470
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31124168
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114088
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115326
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113840
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113462
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31126010
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31120232
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112196
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113442
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113404
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115194
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31120330
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115218
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113878
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.16</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112550
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.9</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112308
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.3</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111980
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114026
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.19</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111934
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113390
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113458
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112136
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31118028
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112904
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113972
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112500
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113186
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114892
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112362
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113198
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114336
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112820
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.21</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112346
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.24</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111996
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112194
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.14</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113900
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.27</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31118250
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.33</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113402
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115270
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.4</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111878
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111960
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113182
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.34</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112156
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115050
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.18</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111998
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113466
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31124234
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.5</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111926
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31116516
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112968
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.15</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112306
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.28</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112502
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.10</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112174
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31124586
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.23</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113338
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.0</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112866
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31123226
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.35</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111928
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117104
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115666
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31120678
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31124182
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113330
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.20</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112118
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113278
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31124534
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113566
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112632
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.29</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113536
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31124410
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.6</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112328
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114596
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.1</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112188
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113860
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117604
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.30</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112470
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31118096
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117494
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.11</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111916
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.7</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111888
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112482
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.17</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112208
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112870
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113006
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31129748
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114498
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113488
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113170
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112972
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31129806
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31118668
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31122436
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113436
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112880
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113296
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113214
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112842
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112878
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31118192
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.12</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112400
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.25</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112272
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31124374
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.22</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112094
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112814
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114694
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114566
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113710
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113380
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113244
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114386
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31133922
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.2</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31111968
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31118394
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113194
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112826
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114450
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114506
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112712
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31114232
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112856
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112518
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112604
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117456
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113210
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112884
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115452
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112296
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31118938
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115824
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112732
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31113156
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112280
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31116424
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31115928
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112740
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31179944
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117870
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31117170
</commentlist>
</conversation>
<conversation>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#conversation10_02_12_0514249.31</id>
	<commentlist>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_12_0514249.31112170
</commentlist>
</conversation>
