<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_02_01_0553259</id>
	<title>Students Failing Because of Poor Grammar</title>
	<author>timothy</author>
	<datestamp>1265029980000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>innocent\_white\_lamb writes <i>"30\% of freshman university students <a href="http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2010/01/31/12686831-cp.html">fail a 'simple English test'</a> at Waterloo University (up from 25\% a few years ago.  Academic papers are riddled with 'cuz' (in place of 'because') and even include little emoticon faces.  One professor says that students 'think commas are sort of like parmesan cheese that you sprinkle on your words.'  At Simon Fraser University, 10\% of students are not qualified to take the mandatory writing courses."</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>innocent \ _white \ _lamb writes " 30 \ % of freshman university students fail a 'simple English test ' at Waterloo University ( up from 25 \ % a few years ago .
Academic papers are riddled with 'cuz ' ( in place of 'because ' ) and even include little emoticon faces .
One professor says that students 'think commas are sort of like parmesan cheese that you sprinkle on your words .
' At Simon Fraser University , 10 \ % of students are not qualified to take the mandatory writing courses .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>innocent\_white\_lamb writes "30\% of freshman university students fail a 'simple English test' at Waterloo University (up from 25\% a few years ago.
Academic papers are riddled with 'cuz' (in place of 'because') and even include little emoticon faces.
One professor says that students 'think commas are sort of like parmesan cheese that you sprinkle on your words.
'  At Simon Fraser University, 10\% of students are not qualified to take the mandatory writing courses.
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981242</id>
	<title>ESL...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265040300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>1.  Its a pretty good result.  More than 30\% of students at UWaterloo are not native English speakers.<br>2.  I've seen entire graduate classes, where there was not one Euro/American surname on the list...</p><p>Canadian universities like to educate the elites of other countries.  Canadian kids work at Ford and GM and MCD's.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>1 .
Its a pretty good result .
More than 30 \ % of students at UWaterloo are not native English speakers.2 .
I 've seen entire graduate classes , where there was not one Euro/American surname on the list...Canadian universities like to educate the elites of other countries .
Canadian kids work at Ford and GM and MCD 's .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>1.
Its a pretty good result.
More than 30\% of students at UWaterloo are not native English speakers.2.
I've seen entire graduate classes, where there was not one Euro/American surname on the list...Canadian universities like to educate the elites of other countries.
Canadian kids work at Ford and GM and MCD's.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982398</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>DavidTC</author>
	<datestamp>1265044800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <i>People shouldn't be taught the test answers, they should be taught the basics in the subject and how to learn.</i> </p><p>
&lt;dalek voice&gt;Blasphemy.&lt;/dalek voice&gt;</p><p>
But, actually, that's exactly the problem here in the US. We've decided to tie <b>funding</b> to standardize test results, resulting in schools, quite reasonably, teaching the test, and just the test. Granted, they don't have exactly the test beforehand, but they teach as close to what where appear on it as they can figure out.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>People should n't be taught the test answers , they should be taught the basics in the subject and how to learn .
Blasphemy . But , actually , that 's exactly the problem here in the US .
We 've decided to tie funding to standardize test results , resulting in schools , quite reasonably , teaching the test , and just the test .
Granted , they do n't have exactly the test beforehand , but they teach as close to what where appear on it as they can figure out .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> People shouldn't be taught the test answers, they should be taught the basics in the subject and how to learn.
Blasphemy.
But, actually, that's exactly the problem here in the US.
We've decided to tie funding to standardize test results, resulting in schools, quite reasonably, teaching the test, and just the test.
Granted, they don't have exactly the test beforehand, but they teach as close to what where appear on it as they can figure out.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981210</id>
	<title>Punctuation</title>
	<author>hibiki\_r</author>
	<datestamp>1265040180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't use commas, like a stupid person.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't use commas , like a stupid person .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't use commas, like a stupid person.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30985514</id>
	<title>Re:Spell Checking</title>
	<author>Kpau</author>
	<datestamp>1265057340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I also find that perfectly correct spellings are often punished by spelling dictionaries... particularly older and archaic words.  The dictionary also fails to consider grammar and will suggest incorrect spellings.  Never mind the Canadian or British spellings of words....

I grew up being taught it was spelled "theatre" in the the US.  Now every dictionary beats me up for it, insisting it is spelled "theater".</htmltext>
<tokenext>I also find that perfectly correct spellings are often punished by spelling dictionaries... particularly older and archaic words .
The dictionary also fails to consider grammar and will suggest incorrect spellings .
Never mind the Canadian or British spellings of words... . I grew up being taught it was spelled " theatre " in the the US .
Now every dictionary beats me up for it , insisting it is spelled " theater " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I also find that perfectly correct spellings are often punished by spelling dictionaries... particularly older and archaic words.
The dictionary also fails to consider grammar and will suggest incorrect spellings.
Never mind the Canadian or British spellings of words....

I grew up being taught it was spelled "theatre" in the the US.
Now every dictionary beats me up for it, insisting it is spelled "theater".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979850</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983676</id>
	<title>Re:hai</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265049900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm sorry, we can't award degrees to cats at this time. Please try again in the future.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm sorry , we ca n't award degrees to cats at this time .
Please try again in the future .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm sorry, we can't award degrees to cats at this time.
Please try again in the future.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979990</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30989824</id>
	<title>Re:Spell Checking</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265031180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've seen plenty of this in my marking.  Students spell check their work (spelling: good) but the words sometimes make next to no sense (grammar: bad).  It can be very difficult to understand what is going in went spelt checked word as received.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've seen plenty of this in my marking .
Students spell check their work ( spelling : good ) but the words sometimes make next to no sense ( grammar : bad ) .
It can be very difficult to understand what is going in went spelt checked word as received .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've seen plenty of this in my marking.
Students spell check their work (spelling: good) but the words sometimes make next to no sense (grammar: bad).
It can be very difficult to understand what is going in went spelt checked word as received.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980082</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981054</id>
	<title>Don't blame the tools, teach kids grammar.</title>
	<author>TomTraynor</author>
	<datestamp>1265039520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't blame cell phones or twitter about the problem, they are the symptom of the disease.  Grammar needs to be taught at an early age and reinforced over the years with continuous practice until it becomes second nature.  Too often they are giving just a basic introduction that is enough to cover the curriculum and no more than that.  I noticed a drop in the work load for my two oldest and that is a lot more than what our youngest is learning at school.  They now are assigned little to no homework to help reinforce what they learn in school.  I try to do what I can to help her learn basic composition and grammar, but, even I don't know all of the rules and exceptions to the rules.  Twitter and cell phones are tools and not the problem.  These new technological tools have limits on what you can send so we all learn to do various short cuts to maximize what can be sent.</p><p>Teachers understand what is happening, but, all too often they cannot do much more as many parents complain that their precious children get too much work at school and homework is somehow damaging to their children.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't blame cell phones or twitter about the problem , they are the symptom of the disease .
Grammar needs to be taught at an early age and reinforced over the years with continuous practice until it becomes second nature .
Too often they are giving just a basic introduction that is enough to cover the curriculum and no more than that .
I noticed a drop in the work load for my two oldest and that is a lot more than what our youngest is learning at school .
They now are assigned little to no homework to help reinforce what they learn in school .
I try to do what I can to help her learn basic composition and grammar , but , even I do n't know all of the rules and exceptions to the rules .
Twitter and cell phones are tools and not the problem .
These new technological tools have limits on what you can send so we all learn to do various short cuts to maximize what can be sent.Teachers understand what is happening , but , all too often they can not do much more as many parents complain that their precious children get too much work at school and homework is somehow damaging to their children .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't blame cell phones or twitter about the problem, they are the symptom of the disease.
Grammar needs to be taught at an early age and reinforced over the years with continuous practice until it becomes second nature.
Too often they are giving just a basic introduction that is enough to cover the curriculum and no more than that.
I noticed a drop in the work load for my two oldest and that is a lot more than what our youngest is learning at school.
They now are assigned little to no homework to help reinforce what they learn in school.
I try to do what I can to help her learn basic composition and grammar, but, even I don't know all of the rules and exceptions to the rules.
Twitter and cell phones are tools and not the problem.
These new technological tools have limits on what you can send so we all learn to do various short cuts to maximize what can be sent.Teachers understand what is happening, but, all too often they cannot do much more as many parents complain that their precious children get too much work at school and homework is somehow damaging to their children.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981440</id>
	<title>Missing the point</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265041020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm a CS undergrad at Waterloo and I think a lot of people are looking at this the wrong way. Waterloo is mainly known for its Math and Engineering faculties, and they attract a lot of foreign students. Many of these students are scarily complicated in their chosen fields, but for whatever reason have no interest or aptitude for English. My friends here are almost exclusively some flavour of East-Asian, and I've read their writing. You don't need to be anything like a grammar nazi to pass this test.</p><p>This has nothing to do with the school not keeping up with the language as far as I can tell. A lot of the people failing this test have trouble conjugating simple verbs. It may have something to do with schools not teaching spelling and grammar, but I don't think that's the main cause. I imagine that if you look at the language being spoken at the homes of those that failed the test, you'd find that for most it wasn't English. My best friend's parents speak almost no English, for example.</p><p>I don't know the stats for Waterloo specifically, but I know that just under half the population of Toronto (major city about an hour and a half away) was born outside this country. Canada is still a very young country in this respect.</p><p>The majority of people failing the ELPE are not dumb by any stretch of the imagination, Waterloo is a fairly prestigious university and you're not going to get in without pretty decent marks (at least for the more technical faculties). As far as I can tell it's just that they don't speak, read or write much English. They spend a lot of time working on the field they're interested in, to the exclusion of just about everything else.</p><p>Short version: People who don't speak much English fail test designed to catch people who can't write English very well. Film at 11.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm a CS undergrad at Waterloo and I think a lot of people are looking at this the wrong way .
Waterloo is mainly known for its Math and Engineering faculties , and they attract a lot of foreign students .
Many of these students are scarily complicated in their chosen fields , but for whatever reason have no interest or aptitude for English .
My friends here are almost exclusively some flavour of East-Asian , and I 've read their writing .
You do n't need to be anything like a grammar nazi to pass this test.This has nothing to do with the school not keeping up with the language as far as I can tell .
A lot of the people failing this test have trouble conjugating simple verbs .
It may have something to do with schools not teaching spelling and grammar , but I do n't think that 's the main cause .
I imagine that if you look at the language being spoken at the homes of those that failed the test , you 'd find that for most it was n't English .
My best friend 's parents speak almost no English , for example.I do n't know the stats for Waterloo specifically , but I know that just under half the population of Toronto ( major city about an hour and a half away ) was born outside this country .
Canada is still a very young country in this respect.The majority of people failing the ELPE are not dumb by any stretch of the imagination , Waterloo is a fairly prestigious university and you 're not going to get in without pretty decent marks ( at least for the more technical faculties ) .
As far as I can tell it 's just that they do n't speak , read or write much English .
They spend a lot of time working on the field they 're interested in , to the exclusion of just about everything else.Short version : People who do n't speak much English fail test designed to catch people who ca n't write English very well .
Film at 11 .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm a CS undergrad at Waterloo and I think a lot of people are looking at this the wrong way.
Waterloo is mainly known for its Math and Engineering faculties, and they attract a lot of foreign students.
Many of these students are scarily complicated in their chosen fields, but for whatever reason have no interest or aptitude for English.
My friends here are almost exclusively some flavour of East-Asian, and I've read their writing.
You don't need to be anything like a grammar nazi to pass this test.This has nothing to do with the school not keeping up with the language as far as I can tell.
A lot of the people failing this test have trouble conjugating simple verbs.
It may have something to do with schools not teaching spelling and grammar, but I don't think that's the main cause.
I imagine that if you look at the language being spoken at the homes of those that failed the test, you'd find that for most it wasn't English.
My best friend's parents speak almost no English, for example.I don't know the stats for Waterloo specifically, but I know that just under half the population of Toronto (major city about an hour and a half away) was born outside this country.
Canada is still a very young country in this respect.The majority of people failing the ELPE are not dumb by any stretch of the imagination, Waterloo is a fairly prestigious university and you're not going to get in without pretty decent marks (at least for the more technical faculties).
As far as I can tell it's just that they don't speak, read or write much English.
They spend a lot of time working on the field they're interested in, to the exclusion of just about everything else.Short version: People who don't speak much English fail test designed to catch people who can't write English very well.
Film at 11.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980058</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980766</id>
	<title>Re:And this is how we die</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265038140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And we certainly seem to have a lot of Gen X that is lazy, sitting around with their computers all the time instead of doing anything productive at all.</p><p>I'm not out to condescend the entire generation (and, in fact, I'm not too hip to the entire 'generational' structure; why should you be branded based on the date of your birth?); there are certainly exemplary GenX folks out there..<nobr> <wbr></nobr>.. but there sure are a lot of bottom-feeding basement-dwellers out there, ya know? And I might just be one of them!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And we certainly seem to have a lot of Gen X that is lazy , sitting around with their computers all the time instead of doing anything productive at all.I 'm not out to condescend the entire generation ( and , in fact , I 'm not too hip to the entire 'generational ' structure ; why should you be branded based on the date of your birth ?
) ; there are certainly exemplary GenX folks out there.. .. but there sure are a lot of bottom-feeding basement-dwellers out there , ya know ?
And I might just be one of them !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And we certainly seem to have a lot of Gen X that is lazy, sitting around with their computers all the time instead of doing anything productive at all.I'm not out to condescend the entire generation (and, in fact, I'm not too hip to the entire 'generational' structure; why should you be branded based on the date of your birth?
); there are certainly exemplary GenX folks out there.. .. but there sure are a lot of bottom-feeding basement-dwellers out there, ya know?
And I might just be one of them!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979890</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982986</id>
	<title>There is no problem here.</title>
	<author>Arccot</author>
	<datestamp>1265047080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The purpose of written language is to communicate ideas. It has never been and will never be a concrete set of rules to be followed without exception. It adapts to the people using the language. If the majority of a society decides "cuz" is a perfectly acceptable substitution for "because," and the rest of the society can understand it in use, what is the problem?</p><p>Hell, strict spelling in the English language only began because regional writings were often difficult to decipher, and it was worth the effort to standardize. English is ripe with illogical exceptions to grammar rules only in place because people that should know better insist that they must remain.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The purpose of written language is to communicate ideas .
It has never been and will never be a concrete set of rules to be followed without exception .
It adapts to the people using the language .
If the majority of a society decides " cuz " is a perfectly acceptable substitution for " because , " and the rest of the society can understand it in use , what is the problem ? Hell , strict spelling in the English language only began because regional writings were often difficult to decipher , and it was worth the effort to standardize .
English is ripe with illogical exceptions to grammar rules only in place because people that should know better insist that they must remain .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The purpose of written language is to communicate ideas.
It has never been and will never be a concrete set of rules to be followed without exception.
It adapts to the people using the language.
If the majority of a society decides "cuz" is a perfectly acceptable substitution for "because," and the rest of the society can understand it in use, what is the problem?Hell, strict spelling in the English language only began because regional writings were often difficult to decipher, and it was worth the effort to standardize.
English is ripe with illogical exceptions to grammar rules only in place because people that should know better insist that they must remain.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30993680</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>Leynos</author>
	<datestamp>1265116920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was born in 1980 and educated in Scotland at state schools. As far as I am concerned, I received a fairly comprehensive set of lessons on grammar and sentence structure.  This was both at primary and secondary levels.</p><p>If people are coming out of school, having followed the same curriculum I did, without an adequate grasp of these subjects then I can only conclude that there are factors other than the quality of the lessons at play.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was born in 1980 and educated in Scotland at state schools .
As far as I am concerned , I received a fairly comprehensive set of lessons on grammar and sentence structure .
This was both at primary and secondary levels.If people are coming out of school , having followed the same curriculum I did , without an adequate grasp of these subjects then I can only conclude that there are factors other than the quality of the lessons at play .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was born in 1980 and educated in Scotland at state schools.
As far as I am concerned, I received a fairly comprehensive set of lessons on grammar and sentence structure.
This was both at primary and secondary levels.If people are coming out of school, having followed the same curriculum I did, without an adequate grasp of these subjects then I can only conclude that there are factors other than the quality of the lessons at play.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980882</id>
	<title>Wll what do you expect?</title>
	<author>Wiarumas</author>
	<datestamp>1265038740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Well, what do you expect when you tweet your 140 character essay to your professor?  And don't even get me started on how many tweets a bibliography takes up - you have to cite Wikipedia like 4 or 5 times!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , what do you expect when you tweet your 140 character essay to your professor ?
And do n't even get me started on how many tweets a bibliography takes up - you have to cite Wikipedia like 4 or 5 times !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, what do you expect when you tweet your 140 character essay to your professor?
And don't even get me started on how many tweets a bibliography takes up - you have to cite Wikipedia like 4 or 5 times!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982608</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265045520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I don't mean to ridicule your line of work but high school was a joke. During my run through it, I felt like I was in a fucking zoo. Up into senior year we were still learning elementary school grammar in my English class. We spent 2 god damn months in Physics learning the metric system because 80 percent of the continuously failed the tests. I got it the first week aced the first test by the end of the month i just stopped doing the homework because it was the same thing over and over. Thankfully the teacher liked me and said I would have done it anyway. Our education system is appealing to your lowest fucking denominator in the class room, handing out the same god damn worksheets, and going over the same simple things four years in a row. I would say I learned more in element school and high school was just some teenage daycare with busy work.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't mean to ridicule your line of work but high school was a joke .
During my run through it , I felt like I was in a fucking zoo .
Up into senior year we were still learning elementary school grammar in my English class .
We spent 2 god damn months in Physics learning the metric system because 80 percent of the continuously failed the tests .
I got it the first week aced the first test by the end of the month i just stopped doing the homework because it was the same thing over and over .
Thankfully the teacher liked me and said I would have done it anyway .
Our education system is appealing to your lowest fucking denominator in the class room , handing out the same god damn worksheets , and going over the same simple things four years in a row .
I would say I learned more in element school and high school was just some teenage daycare with busy work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't mean to ridicule your line of work but high school was a joke.
During my run through it, I felt like I was in a fucking zoo.
Up into senior year we were still learning elementary school grammar in my English class.
We spent 2 god damn months in Physics learning the metric system because 80 percent of the continuously failed the tests.
I got it the first week aced the first test by the end of the month i just stopped doing the homework because it was the same thing over and over.
Thankfully the teacher liked me and said I would have done it anyway.
Our education system is appealing to your lowest fucking denominator in the class room, handing out the same god damn worksheets, and going over the same simple things four years in a row.
I would say I learned more in element school and high school was just some teenage daycare with busy work.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981088</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981536</id>
	<title>Re:Spell Checking</title>
	<author>corbettw</author>
	<datestamp>1265041380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>He says spelling is getting better, but grammar is getting worse. That would be perfectly consistent with using a spell checker and not realising that it's suggested a grammatically-incorrect but properly spelled word.</p></div><p>Its simply knot true that spellcheckers invite pore grammar. If watt ewe said where true, than weed see more examples of it, wouldn't ewe agree?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>He says spelling is getting better , but grammar is getting worse .
That would be perfectly consistent with using a spell checker and not realising that it 's suggested a grammatically-incorrect but properly spelled word.Its simply knot true that spellcheckers invite pore grammar .
If watt ewe said where true , than weed see more examples of it , would n't ewe agree ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He says spelling is getting better, but grammar is getting worse.
That would be perfectly consistent with using a spell checker and not realising that it's suggested a grammatically-incorrect but properly spelled word.Its simply knot true that spellcheckers invite pore grammar.
If watt ewe said where true, than weed see more examples of it, wouldn't ewe agree?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980082</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982118</id>
	<title>Idiots</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265043720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>If your dumb enough to use Cuz instead of because or use lol instead of laughing then you aren't ready for University or at least not mature enough to know better.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If your dumb enough to use Cuz instead of because or use lol instead of laughing then you are n't ready for University or at least not mature enough to know better .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If your dumb enough to use Cuz instead of because or use lol instead of laughing then you aren't ready for University or at least not mature enough to know better.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982190</id>
	<title>Grammar and writing</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265044080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>These folks are working on solving the grammar and writing problem among students:<br>http://www.learninc.net/</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>These folks are working on solving the grammar and writing problem among students : http : //www.learninc.net/</tokentext>
<sentencetext>These folks are working on solving the grammar and writing problem among students:http://www.learninc.net/</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983952</id>
	<title>just keep that up</title>
	<author>vnaughtdeltat</author>
	<datestamp>1265050860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>... and you'll get a <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Twitterature-Worlds-Greatest-Twenty-Tweets/dp/0143117327" title="amazon.com" rel="nofollow">book deal</a> [amazon.com].</htmltext>
<tokenext>... and you 'll get a book deal [ amazon.com ] .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... and you'll get a book deal [amazon.com].</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979924</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981088</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265039700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>I am currently the instructor in a high school Chemistry course (at least for the day). From my experience observing the students of today across various subjects, I can say that the fault is with both the students and their parents. Our students have no work ethic, and no desire to learn. They idolize their own ignorance. The writing I see from our high school students is worse than that mentioned in the article. Even among students who score relatively well, I get the impression that I am reading a paper written by someone without native English fluency. This is, of course, when they can be made to work on any assignment to begin with. Presently, the majority of the students I am watching as I write this have elected not to open their book and participate. Instead they have chosen to engage themselves in useless, and frankly, inane and nonsensical conversation. <br> <br>

Equally disturbing to me is the lack of command in spoken English. These students, with few exceptions, are native English speakers, but it would be difficult to tell this from observing them. I was raised in the same town as these students, and progressed through the same education system under most of the same teachers. The curriculum has changed in the intervening time, but not enough to account for the disparity in abilities. It is honestly as if I speak different language than these students when I speak English properly. As a matter of fact, English is an entirely differently language from what they speak, and that appalls me. <br> <br>

Having working experience in the public education system, I can say that our problems are arising from our youth culture. The  problems with our youth culture are largely due to a lack of interest or parenting ability on the part of our parents. Our students are held to no standards at home, or at least, very low standards. They have no desire to learn, and no desire to work. I try to inspire students when I have the opportunity, but results are highly limited. It is shocking and sickening when I consider that in short order these students will be adults, with responsibility in society. The difficulty with language is a symptom of the deeper problem: our students idolize willful ignorance and have chosen to be intellectually spayed. I feel that only the sobering reality we will face when we become dependent on this generation for their participation in society will shake us from our complacency and help us to insist upon higher standards for education. This effort should be maintained not only within the education system, but at home.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I am currently the instructor in a high school Chemistry course ( at least for the day ) .
From my experience observing the students of today across various subjects , I can say that the fault is with both the students and their parents .
Our students have no work ethic , and no desire to learn .
They idolize their own ignorance .
The writing I see from our high school students is worse than that mentioned in the article .
Even among students who score relatively well , I get the impression that I am reading a paper written by someone without native English fluency .
This is , of course , when they can be made to work on any assignment to begin with .
Presently , the majority of the students I am watching as I write this have elected not to open their book and participate .
Instead they have chosen to engage themselves in useless , and frankly , inane and nonsensical conversation .
Equally disturbing to me is the lack of command in spoken English .
These students , with few exceptions , are native English speakers , but it would be difficult to tell this from observing them .
I was raised in the same town as these students , and progressed through the same education system under most of the same teachers .
The curriculum has changed in the intervening time , but not enough to account for the disparity in abilities .
It is honestly as if I speak different language than these students when I speak English properly .
As a matter of fact , English is an entirely differently language from what they speak , and that appalls me .
Having working experience in the public education system , I can say that our problems are arising from our youth culture .
The problems with our youth culture are largely due to a lack of interest or parenting ability on the part of our parents .
Our students are held to no standards at home , or at least , very low standards .
They have no desire to learn , and no desire to work .
I try to inspire students when I have the opportunity , but results are highly limited .
It is shocking and sickening when I consider that in short order these students will be adults , with responsibility in society .
The difficulty with language is a symptom of the deeper problem : our students idolize willful ignorance and have chosen to be intellectually spayed .
I feel that only the sobering reality we will face when we become dependent on this generation for their participation in society will shake us from our complacency and help us to insist upon higher standards for education .
This effort should be maintained not only within the education system , but at home .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am currently the instructor in a high school Chemistry course (at least for the day).
From my experience observing the students of today across various subjects, I can say that the fault is with both the students and their parents.
Our students have no work ethic, and no desire to learn.
They idolize their own ignorance.
The writing I see from our high school students is worse than that mentioned in the article.
Even among students who score relatively well, I get the impression that I am reading a paper written by someone without native English fluency.
This is, of course, when they can be made to work on any assignment to begin with.
Presently, the majority of the students I am watching as I write this have elected not to open their book and participate.
Instead they have chosen to engage themselves in useless, and frankly, inane and nonsensical conversation.
Equally disturbing to me is the lack of command in spoken English.
These students, with few exceptions, are native English speakers, but it would be difficult to tell this from observing them.
I was raised in the same town as these students, and progressed through the same education system under most of the same teachers.
The curriculum has changed in the intervening time, but not enough to account for the disparity in abilities.
It is honestly as if I speak different language than these students when I speak English properly.
As a matter of fact, English is an entirely differently language from what they speak, and that appalls me.
Having working experience in the public education system, I can say that our problems are arising from our youth culture.
The  problems with our youth culture are largely due to a lack of interest or parenting ability on the part of our parents.
Our students are held to no standards at home, or at least, very low standards.
They have no desire to learn, and no desire to work.
I try to inspire students when I have the opportunity, but results are highly limited.
It is shocking and sickening when I consider that in short order these students will be adults, with responsibility in society.
The difficulty with language is a symptom of the deeper problem: our students idolize willful ignorance and have chosen to be intellectually spayed.
I feel that only the sobering reality we will face when we become dependent on this generation for their participation in society will shake us from our complacency and help us to insist upon higher standards for education.
This effort should be maintained not only within the education system, but at home.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979950</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982284</id>
	<title>Re:This does not surprise me.</title>
	<author>mcgrew</author>
	<datestamp>1265044380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There's a new convinience store here in Springfiled (Google streetview shows the building from when it was a laundromat) that has an otherwise professionally produced-looking sign that reads "Grocery's, cigerets..."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's a new convinience store here in Springfiled ( Google streetview shows the building from when it was a laundromat ) that has an otherwise professionally produced-looking sign that reads " Grocery 's , cigerets... "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's a new convinience store here in Springfiled (Google streetview shows the building from when it was a laundromat) that has an otherwise professionally produced-looking sign that reads "Grocery's, cigerets..."</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980108</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30986878</id>
	<title>Re:As a father...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265018580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I spend some time in schools, and often see the opposite of what you see. Two years ago, I shadowed a middle-school student for a day. In PE class, the teacher/coach handed back papers to the kids -- and it was clear that grammar and spelling were marked<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... yes, in PE class!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I spend some time in schools , and often see the opposite of what you see .
Two years ago , I shadowed a middle-school student for a day .
In PE class , the teacher/coach handed back papers to the kids -- and it was clear that grammar and spelling were marked ... yes , in PE class !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I spend some time in schools, and often see the opposite of what you see.
Two years ago, I shadowed a middle-school student for a day.
In PE class, the teacher/coach handed back papers to the kids -- and it was clear that grammar and spelling were marked ... yes, in PE class!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980568</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30985000</id>
	<title>Who Dat?</title>
	<author>hashkaran</author>
	<datestamp>1265055600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Say What?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Say What ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Say What?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981150</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>blahplusplus</author>
	<datestamp>1265039940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"My wife works in the public schools. I learned one thing from her. Parents claim they want schools with touch academics. However, they also wants their kids to get a 4.0, or very close to it and go apeshit when it doesn't happen. So when a school does crack down and start to grade accurately to touch academic standards, the parents go ballistic. These parents start harassing the teacher, the principal, the administrators, and the school board."</p><p>This has more to do with the fact the job market for youth is awful and parents everywhere have drilled into their kids "if you don't go to university you will be poor!", it's just a sign of the times and changing economic circumstances.  No one really likes competition when they are on the receiving end of a lower class income.</p><p>School today mostly revolves around income hierarchy and not really education anymore, the structure of our society unfortunately has conflicting demands that simply can't be met without conflict.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" My wife works in the public schools .
I learned one thing from her .
Parents claim they want schools with touch academics .
However , they also wants their kids to get a 4.0 , or very close to it and go apeshit when it does n't happen .
So when a school does crack down and start to grade accurately to touch academic standards , the parents go ballistic .
These parents start harassing the teacher , the principal , the administrators , and the school board .
" This has more to do with the fact the job market for youth is awful and parents everywhere have drilled into their kids " if you do n't go to university you will be poor !
" , it 's just a sign of the times and changing economic circumstances .
No one really likes competition when they are on the receiving end of a lower class income.School today mostly revolves around income hierarchy and not really education anymore , the structure of our society unfortunately has conflicting demands that simply ca n't be met without conflict .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"My wife works in the public schools.
I learned one thing from her.
Parents claim they want schools with touch academics.
However, they also wants their kids to get a 4.0, or very close to it and go apeshit when it doesn't happen.
So when a school does crack down and start to grade accurately to touch academic standards, the parents go ballistic.
These parents start harassing the teacher, the principal, the administrators, and the school board.
"This has more to do with the fact the job market for youth is awful and parents everywhere have drilled into their kids "if you don't go to university you will be poor!
", it's just a sign of the times and changing economic circumstances.
No one really likes competition when they are on the receiving end of a lower class income.School today mostly revolves around income hierarchy and not really education anymore, the structure of our society unfortunately has conflicting demands that simply can't be met without conflict.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979950</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30995440</id>
	<title>My take on grading and spelling/grammar</title>
	<author>jonaskoelker</author>
	<datestamp>1265127000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I recall getting points marked down in all my classes (including science classes) for misspellings, and I am stunned by the fact that somehow proper spelling and grammar is not considered something that anyone other than an English teacher should be concerned about when grading.</p></div><p>Speaking as a TA, whenever I look at a hand-in, I offer constructive criticism (in red ink) on all aspects of what I'm handed in (to the extent of my ability).  This includes language---i.e. spelling, grammar and choice of words---LaTeX and of course the substance of the assignment.</p><p>However, I only grade (i.e. give pass/pass-minus/resubmit) based on the substance, because the hand-ins are there for them to demonstrate an understanding of what they've been taught, not what they have not been taught.</p><p>That's not because I don't value clear writing, proper spelling or nice typography.  It's because I feel it's not what I'm there to help them learn (that's just a side benefit).</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I recall getting points marked down in all my classes ( including science classes ) for misspellings , and I am stunned by the fact that somehow proper spelling and grammar is not considered something that anyone other than an English teacher should be concerned about when grading.Speaking as a TA , whenever I look at a hand-in , I offer constructive criticism ( in red ink ) on all aspects of what I 'm handed in ( to the extent of my ability ) .
This includes language---i.e .
spelling , grammar and choice of words---LaTeX and of course the substance of the assignment.However , I only grade ( i.e .
give pass/pass-minus/resubmit ) based on the substance , because the hand-ins are there for them to demonstrate an understanding of what they 've been taught , not what they have not been taught.That 's not because I do n't value clear writing , proper spelling or nice typography .
It 's because I feel it 's not what I 'm there to help them learn ( that 's just a side benefit ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I recall getting points marked down in all my classes (including science classes) for misspellings, and I am stunned by the fact that somehow proper spelling and grammar is not considered something that anyone other than an English teacher should be concerned about when grading.Speaking as a TA, whenever I look at a hand-in, I offer constructive criticism (in red ink) on all aspects of what I'm handed in (to the extent of my ability).
This includes language---i.e.
spelling, grammar and choice of words---LaTeX and of course the substance of the assignment.However, I only grade (i.e.
give pass/pass-minus/resubmit) based on the substance, because the hand-ins are there for them to demonstrate an understanding of what they've been taught, not what they have not been taught.That's not because I don't value clear writing, proper spelling or nice typography.
It's because I feel it's not what I'm there to help them learn (that's just a side benefit).
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980568</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981070</id>
	<title>TFA fails...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265039580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>...for wasting a perfect opportunity to say, "can't read good," in the opening paragraph.</htmltext>
<tokenext>...for wasting a perfect opportunity to say , " ca n't read good , " in the opening paragraph .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...for wasting a perfect opportunity to say, "can't read good," in the opening paragraph.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980510</id>
	<title>I took that test.  Failed it.  It was bullshit.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265037000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You know what it was when I did it?</p><p>"Write 4 pages on the subject of: 57 Channels and Nothing On" in limited time, with no reference materials.</p><p>Apparently, this was a song I had never heard of.  I drew a blank.  I struggled to generate that much meaningless text.</p><p>It doesn't test English literacy so much as the ability to produce unlimited bullshit on command.</p><p>The testers are just idiots.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You know what it was when I did it ?
" Write 4 pages on the subject of : 57 Channels and Nothing On " in limited time , with no reference materials.Apparently , this was a song I had never heard of .
I drew a blank .
I struggled to generate that much meaningless text.It does n't test English literacy so much as the ability to produce unlimited bullshit on command.The testers are just idiots .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You know what it was when I did it?
"Write 4 pages on the subject of: 57 Channels and Nothing On" in limited time, with no reference materials.Apparently, this was a song I had never heard of.
I drew a blank.
I struggled to generate that much meaningless text.It doesn't test English literacy so much as the ability to produce unlimited bullshit on command.The testers are just idiots.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983866</id>
	<title>It doesn't help when...</title>
	<author>Rene S. Hollan</author>
	<datestamp>1265050680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>... my  son's fourth grade teacher routinely says, "Me and Dick and Jane," or "Dick, Jane, and Me," instead of "Jane, Dick, and I."</p><p>I'm getting resistance from my kids and their friends when I correct this. "Me and him" so grates on my ears!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>... my son 's fourth grade teacher routinely says , " Me and Dick and Jane , " or " Dick , Jane , and Me , " instead of " Jane , Dick , and I .
" I 'm getting resistance from my kids and their friends when I correct this .
" Me and him " so grates on my ears !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... my  son's fourth grade teacher routinely says, "Me and Dick and Jane," or "Dick, Jane, and Me," instead of "Jane, Dick, and I.
"I'm getting resistance from my kids and their friends when I correct this.
"Me and him" so grates on my ears!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980158</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>Junta</author>
	<datestamp>1265035440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Parents claim they want schools with <em>touch</em> academics</p></div><p>I thought teachers get in a lot of trouble over providing that sort of thing?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Parents claim they want schools with touch academicsI thought teachers get in a lot of trouble over providing that sort of thing ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Parents claim they want schools with touch academicsI thought teachers get in a lot of trouble over providing that sort of thing?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979950</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30988966</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>anaesthetica</author>
	<datestamp>1265026860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>People learning English as a foreign language get taught proper grammar and only learn the vernacular later.</p></div></blockquote><p>Would it be a good idea to simply scrap our current system of teaching English to native speakers, and then just replace it with ESL coursework?  If ESL courses can teach non-native speakers correct English, perhaps it will work on native speakers (if you catch them early enough).</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>People learning English as a foreign language get taught proper grammar and only learn the vernacular later.Would it be a good idea to simply scrap our current system of teaching English to native speakers , and then just replace it with ESL coursework ?
If ESL courses can teach non-native speakers correct English , perhaps it will work on native speakers ( if you catch them early enough ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>People learning English as a foreign language get taught proper grammar and only learn the vernacular later.Would it be a good idea to simply scrap our current system of teaching English to native speakers, and then just replace it with ESL coursework?
If ESL courses can teach non-native speakers correct English, perhaps it will work on native speakers (if you catch them early enough).
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980832</id>
	<title>Re:Eats, Shoots, and Leaves</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265038440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>He obviously reeds, as well.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>He obviously reeds , as well .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He obviously reeds, as well.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979936</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981308</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>CptNerd</author>
	<datestamp>1265040480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm an old enough fart to have been taught English grammar in school.  One of the things that stood me in good stead when I got into computer programming, especially AI, was the ability to parse a sentence.  Knowing that languages have rules, and that computer languages are mainly intended to be read by humans, helped in learning languages like C and Smalltalk.  At an early age I got turned on to Reader's Digest "It Pays To Increase Your Word Power".  Thanks to those articles and to some very good teachers of English and Latin, I have a vocabulary that occasionally surprises people, mainly because I grew up in Appalachia, and most people don't expect erudition from that area.  My honors English teacher was a college teacher in the 40's and 50's, and by the time I got into college in the mid-70's I found the English classes to be much easier than high school, thanks to her.
<br> <br>
Interestingly enough, I saw a program on NHKWorld concerning the same problem, that teachers and companies are finding students and graduates that don't have a good grasp of Japanese grammar and vocabulary.  Companies are having to set up remedial Japanese classes in order for their employees to be able to do their jobs.  That, and apparently Japan has fallen from the top in math scores as well, according to an article we read in my Japanese class.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm an old enough fart to have been taught English grammar in school .
One of the things that stood me in good stead when I got into computer programming , especially AI , was the ability to parse a sentence .
Knowing that languages have rules , and that computer languages are mainly intended to be read by humans , helped in learning languages like C and Smalltalk .
At an early age I got turned on to Reader 's Digest " It Pays To Increase Your Word Power " .
Thanks to those articles and to some very good teachers of English and Latin , I have a vocabulary that occasionally surprises people , mainly because I grew up in Appalachia , and most people do n't expect erudition from that area .
My honors English teacher was a college teacher in the 40 's and 50 's , and by the time I got into college in the mid-70 's I found the English classes to be much easier than high school , thanks to her .
Interestingly enough , I saw a program on NHKWorld concerning the same problem , that teachers and companies are finding students and graduates that do n't have a good grasp of Japanese grammar and vocabulary .
Companies are having to set up remedial Japanese classes in order for their employees to be able to do their jobs .
That , and apparently Japan has fallen from the top in math scores as well , according to an article we read in my Japanese class .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm an old enough fart to have been taught English grammar in school.
One of the things that stood me in good stead when I got into computer programming, especially AI, was the ability to parse a sentence.
Knowing that languages have rules, and that computer languages are mainly intended to be read by humans, helped in learning languages like C and Smalltalk.
At an early age I got turned on to Reader's Digest "It Pays To Increase Your Word Power".
Thanks to those articles and to some very good teachers of English and Latin, I have a vocabulary that occasionally surprises people, mainly because I grew up in Appalachia, and most people don't expect erudition from that area.
My honors English teacher was a college teacher in the 40's and 50's, and by the time I got into college in the mid-70's I found the English classes to be much easier than high school, thanks to her.
Interestingly enough, I saw a program on NHKWorld concerning the same problem, that teachers and companies are finding students and graduates that don't have a good grasp of Japanese grammar and vocabulary.
Companies are having to set up remedial Japanese classes in order for their employees to be able to do their jobs.
That, and apparently Japan has fallen from the top in math scores as well, according to an article we read in my Japanese class.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984394</id>
	<title>Re:Is it because of the decline of paper media?</title>
	<author>Locke2005</author>
	<datestamp>1265052840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>To the contrary, I'm often amazed at how incredibly good the Dutch (and most other Europeans) I have had contact with actually are at writing in English, considering it is a second or third language to them. My Italian friends scored 37\% percentile in the verbal portion of US college entrance exams, meaning their written English was better than a third of US high school that were applying to college! (They claimed this was only because they knew all the Latin roots of English words.)<br> <br>But communication isn't about following arbitrary complex rules -- it's about making yourself understood to your target audience. Clearly, like most groups that adopt their own jargon, these students are simply not interested in making themselves understood to their instructors. Also, the rules are grammar are in constant flux and are dictated by popular usage, not by the whims of academics.</htmltext>
<tokenext>To the contrary , I 'm often amazed at how incredibly good the Dutch ( and most other Europeans ) I have had contact with actually are at writing in English , considering it is a second or third language to them .
My Italian friends scored 37 \ % percentile in the verbal portion of US college entrance exams , meaning their written English was better than a third of US high school that were applying to college !
( They claimed this was only because they knew all the Latin roots of English words .
) But communication is n't about following arbitrary complex rules -- it 's about making yourself understood to your target audience .
Clearly , like most groups that adopt their own jargon , these students are simply not interested in making themselves understood to their instructors .
Also , the rules are grammar are in constant flux and are dictated by popular usage , not by the whims of academics .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To the contrary, I'm often amazed at how incredibly good the Dutch (and most other Europeans) I have had contact with actually are at writing in English, considering it is a second or third language to them.
My Italian friends scored 37\% percentile in the verbal portion of US college entrance exams, meaning their written English was better than a third of US high school that were applying to college!
(They claimed this was only because they knew all the Latin roots of English words.
) But communication isn't about following arbitrary complex rules -- it's about making yourself understood to your target audience.
Clearly, like most groups that adopt their own jargon, these students are simply not interested in making themselves understood to their instructors.
Also, the rules are grammar are in constant flux and are dictated by popular usage, not by the whims of academics.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980292</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982168</id>
	<title>Minor amendment to the article</title>
	<author>garg0yle</author>
	<datestamp>1265043960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The name of the academic institution is the University of Waterloo, not "Waterloo University".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The name of the academic institution is the University of Waterloo , not " Waterloo University " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The name of the academic institution is the University of Waterloo, not "Waterloo University".</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30985436</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>the Dragonweaver</author>
	<datestamp>1265057100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?<br>Norwegians learn Norwegian; the Greeks are taught their Greek.<br>In France every Frenchman knows his language A to Zed..."</p><p>There is a local (West Coast USA) Gilbert &amp; Sullivan group that won an international G&amp;S contest <i>in Britain</i> for their performance, primarily because their accents were studied, clear, and accurate, while the locals tended to be sloppy. Sometimes an outsider's perspective is an advantage.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Why ca n't the English teach their children how to speak ? Norwegians learn Norwegian ; the Greeks are taught their Greek.In France every Frenchman knows his language A to Zed... " There is a local ( West Coast USA ) Gilbert &amp; Sullivan group that won an international G&amp;S contest in Britain for their performance , primarily because their accents were studied , clear , and accurate , while the locals tended to be sloppy .
Sometimes an outsider 's perspective is an advantage .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?Norwegians learn Norwegian; the Greeks are taught their Greek.In France every Frenchman knows his language A to Zed..."There is a local (West Coast USA) Gilbert &amp; Sullivan group that won an international G&amp;S contest in Britain for their performance, primarily because their accents were studied, clear, and accurate, while the locals tended to be sloppy.
Sometimes an outsider's perspective is an advantage.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980048</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983090</id>
	<title>I have bad English skills too, but...</title>
	<author>antdude</author>
	<datestamp>1265047500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>... I didn't have or use these things (e.g., Facebook, Twitter) and still do bad with English and needs proofreaders (e.g., copy editors, tutors).<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:( I do tend to be a spelling and grammar nazi for some really basic errors (e.g., its vs. it's, they're vs. their).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>... I did n't have or use these things ( e.g. , Facebook , Twitter ) and still do bad with English and needs proofreaders ( e.g. , copy editors , tutors ) .
: ( I do tend to be a spelling and grammar nazi for some really basic errors ( e.g. , its vs. it 's , they 're vs. their ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... I didn't have or use these things (e.g., Facebook, Twitter) and still do bad with English and needs proofreaders (e.g., copy editors, tutors).
:( I do tend to be a spelling and grammar nazi for some really basic errors (e.g., its vs. it's, they're vs. their).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30987900</id>
	<title>what a bunch...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265022420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>of loosers.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>of loosers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>of loosers.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981694</id>
	<title>You know...</title>
	<author>buddyglass</author>
	<datestamp>1265042040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Some people shouldn't be in university.  Based on this article, I'd put the number somewhere around 25\%.  That's not to say they're bad people; just that society is unlikely to benefit from their having spent four years in college.  Unfortunately, the system is set up so that they <i>personally</i> benefit form those four years in college (even if they learn nothing) so long as it results in a diploma.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Some people should n't be in university .
Based on this article , I 'd put the number somewhere around 25 \ % .
That 's not to say they 're bad people ; just that society is unlikely to benefit from their having spent four years in college .
Unfortunately , the system is set up so that they personally benefit form those four years in college ( even if they learn nothing ) so long as it results in a diploma .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Some people shouldn't be in university.
Based on this article, I'd put the number somewhere around 25\%.
That's not to say they're bad people; just that society is unlikely to benefit from their having spent four years in college.
Unfortunately, the system is set up so that they personally benefit form those four years in college (even if they learn nothing) so long as it results in a diploma.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980498</id>
	<title>Dumbing down of education</title>
	<author>falconcy</author>
	<datestamp>1265036940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm amazed at the number of graduates of English speaking universities who can't even string a simple sentence together. In my day, they wouldn't have passed GCE 'O' level English. Come to think of it, most of them wouldn't have survived in the days when you couldn't use a calculator for maths. Even these days I can still work it out in my head faster than many youngsters can with a calculator.

Education has sure been dumbed down over the years.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm amazed at the number of graduates of English speaking universities who ca n't even string a simple sentence together .
In my day , they would n't have passed GCE 'O ' level English .
Come to think of it , most of them would n't have survived in the days when you could n't use a calculator for maths .
Even these days I can still work it out in my head faster than many youngsters can with a calculator .
Education has sure been dumbed down over the years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm amazed at the number of graduates of English speaking universities who can't even string a simple sentence together.
In my day, they wouldn't have passed GCE 'O' level English.
Come to think of it, most of them wouldn't have survived in the days when you couldn't use a calculator for maths.
Even these days I can still work it out in my head faster than many youngsters can with a calculator.
Education has sure been dumbed down over the years.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979960</id>
	<title>Sit, grab the popcorn and read on</title>
	<author>JamesP</author>
	<datestamp>1265034540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Flamebait</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>'cuz the rant starts NOW.</p><p>Now let's see, it's one thing to write incoherently, another thing is to write wrongly (that is not obeying proper grammar and spelling).</p><p>This is the way language evolves, this is why no one writes 'perchance', or uses &#240; anymore (well, except for Bjork<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:P)</p><p>And even though Englysh language scholars are much less picky (or rather, are not a total pain in the behind like let's say, French language scholars) my opinion of both (that is, those exclusively dealing with their mother tongue) is similar: those who can't do, teach. (yes, this is very biased and certainly doesn't apply for several professors, but still, for them, especially)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>'cuz the rant starts NOW.Now let 's see , it 's one thing to write incoherently , another thing is to write wrongly ( that is not obeying proper grammar and spelling ) .This is the way language evolves , this is why no one writes 'perchance ' , or uses   anymore ( well , except for Bjork : P ) And even though Englysh language scholars are much less picky ( or rather , are not a total pain in the behind like let 's say , French language scholars ) my opinion of both ( that is , those exclusively dealing with their mother tongue ) is similar : those who ca n't do , teach .
( yes , this is very biased and certainly does n't apply for several professors , but still , for them , especially )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>'cuz the rant starts NOW.Now let's see, it's one thing to write incoherently, another thing is to write wrongly (that is not obeying proper grammar and spelling).This is the way language evolves, this is why no one writes 'perchance', or uses ð anymore (well, except for Bjork :P)And even though Englysh language scholars are much less picky (or rather, are not a total pain in the behind like let's say, French language scholars) my opinion of both (that is, those exclusively dealing with their mother tongue) is similar: those who can't do, teach.
(yes, this is very biased and certainly doesn't apply for several professors, but still, for them, especially)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981586</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265041620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why do you think the parents were pushing for tougher standards in the first place? Maybe because a child that can't spell "Mississippi" has no business getting an "A" in Spelling?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why do you think the parents were pushing for tougher standards in the first place ?
Maybe because a child that ca n't spell " Mississippi " has no business getting an " A " in Spelling ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why do you think the parents were pushing for tougher standards in the first place?
Maybe because a child that can't spell "Mississippi" has no business getting an "A" in Spelling?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980556</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979920</id>
	<title>Sentence fragment is also a sentence fragment.</title>
	<author>Rogerborg</author>
	<datestamp>1265034360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>30\% of freshman university students fail a 'simple English test' at Waterloo University (up from 25\% a few years ago<b>)</b>. Academic papers are riddled with 'cuz' (in place of 'because') and even include little emoticon faces.</p></div></blockquote><p>Fixed your missing parenthesis for you.  Perhaps a community college would be more your style?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>30 \ % of freshman university students fail a 'simple English test ' at Waterloo University ( up from 25 \ % a few years ago ) .
Academic papers are riddled with 'cuz ' ( in place of 'because ' ) and even include little emoticon faces.Fixed your missing parenthesis for you .
Perhaps a community college would be more your style ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>30\% of freshman university students fail a 'simple English test' at Waterloo University (up from 25\% a few years ago).
Academic papers are riddled with 'cuz' (in place of 'because') and even include little emoticon faces.Fixed your missing parenthesis for you.
Perhaps a community college would be more your style?
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981954</id>
	<title>Re:Relevant</title>
	<author>dunkelfalke</author>
	<datestamp>1265043000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Can someone explain the joke to me? English is neither a native language nor the first foreign language for me.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Can someone explain the joke to me ?
English is neither a native language nor the first foreign language for me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Can someone explain the joke to me?
English is neither a native language nor the first foreign language for me.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979830</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30986090</id>
	<title>colidge is ez</title>
	<author>uvajed\_ekil</author>
	<datestamp>1265015940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>i can haz degree now ?? i passed ur classez and now i can gradjuate lol<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</htmltext>
<tokenext>i can haz degree now ? ?
i passed ur classez and now i can gradjuate lol : )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>i can haz degree now ??
i passed ur classez and now i can gradjuate lol :)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980108</id>
	<title>This does not surprise me.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265035260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I previously worked for about 8 years for a medium-sized marketing and design agency, as the lead web developer. On almost every project that passed across my desk, I seemed to be the only one spotting spelling errors, grammatical mistakes and punctuation problems before copy went to the web and to print. This was in a company of 30-ish young, university educated professionals in London.</p><p>When the programmers are copy-editing your marketing material, that should be a sign you've got literacy problems!</p><p>The weird thing was that when I sent the copy back, corrected, everyone told me I was being anal - apparently not bothered about bad copy to billboards and magazines nationwide.</p><p>I agree with a commenter above, though - I think coding does encourage attention to detail when a stray semicolon becomes important.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I previously worked for about 8 years for a medium-sized marketing and design agency , as the lead web developer .
On almost every project that passed across my desk , I seemed to be the only one spotting spelling errors , grammatical mistakes and punctuation problems before copy went to the web and to print .
This was in a company of 30-ish young , university educated professionals in London.When the programmers are copy-editing your marketing material , that should be a sign you 've got literacy problems ! The weird thing was that when I sent the copy back , corrected , everyone told me I was being anal - apparently not bothered about bad copy to billboards and magazines nationwide.I agree with a commenter above , though - I think coding does encourage attention to detail when a stray semicolon becomes important .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I previously worked for about 8 years for a medium-sized marketing and design agency, as the lead web developer.
On almost every project that passed across my desk, I seemed to be the only one spotting spelling errors, grammatical mistakes and punctuation problems before copy went to the web and to print.
This was in a company of 30-ish young, university educated professionals in London.When the programmers are copy-editing your marketing material, that should be a sign you've got literacy problems!The weird thing was that when I sent the copy back, corrected, everyone told me I was being anal - apparently not bothered about bad copy to billboards and magazines nationwide.I agree with a commenter above, though - I think coding does encourage attention to detail when a stray semicolon becomes important.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984580</id>
	<title>no its !true guys</title>
	<author>Cruxus</author>
	<datestamp>1265053680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>the next genaration, can write just, fine thank u<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:) lol i sprinkled on extra comas for extra flavour<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;) now wears my degree???!!!</htmltext>
<tokenext>the next genaration , can write just , fine thank u : ) lol i sprinkled on extra comas for extra flavour ; ) now wears my degree ? ? ? ! !
!</tokentext>
<sentencetext>the next genaration, can write just, fine thank u :) lol i sprinkled on extra comas for extra flavour ;) now wears my degree???!!
!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981294</id>
	<title>Don't forget</title>
	<author>a whoabot</author>
	<datestamp>1265040420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't forget about the number of students who are not native English speakers.  For most Canadian universities, this population forms a sizable chunk.  For many freshmen students, this is their first time in an English-speaking country.  They have some experience -- enough to fulfil the entry requirements, but not enough to perform well with the language in every context.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't forget about the number of students who are not native English speakers .
For most Canadian universities , this population forms a sizable chunk .
For many freshmen students , this is their first time in an English-speaking country .
They have some experience -- enough to fulfil the entry requirements , but not enough to perform well with the language in every context .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't forget about the number of students who are not native English speakers.
For most Canadian universities, this population forms a sizable chunk.
For many freshmen students, this is their first time in an English-speaking country.
They have some experience -- enough to fulfil the entry requirements, but not enough to perform well with the language in every context.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982142</id>
	<title>Raise your hand</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265043780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>if you just realized that this story is about you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>if you just realized that this story is about you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>if you just realized that this story is about you.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984214</id>
	<title>Re:Relevant</title>
	<author>bkr1\_2k</author>
	<datestamp>1265052000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>English is neither a native language nor the first foreign language for me.</p></div><p>I suspect that's the case with the person who submitted the paper as well.</p><p>The sentence was most likely intended to mean "the bathroom smelled like death" or "the bathroom smelled like something had died in it" but was most likely submitted by a non-native English speaker who did a literal translation and didn't notice that a literal translation didn't really make much sense in that particular context.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>English is neither a native language nor the first foreign language for me.I suspect that 's the case with the person who submitted the paper as well.The sentence was most likely intended to mean " the bathroom smelled like death " or " the bathroom smelled like something had died in it " but was most likely submitted by a non-native English speaker who did a literal translation and did n't notice that a literal translation did n't really make much sense in that particular context .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>English is neither a native language nor the first foreign language for me.I suspect that's the case with the person who submitted the paper as well.The sentence was most likely intended to mean "the bathroom smelled like death" or "the bathroom smelled like something had died in it" but was most likely submitted by a non-native English speaker who did a literal translation and didn't notice that a literal translation didn't really make much sense in that particular context.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981954</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980526</id>
	<title>Re:Universities can't keep up</title>
	<author>JasterBobaMereel</author>
	<datestamp>1265037060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The point is not that we do not know what 'cuz' means, it is that they are writing  academic paper and so should realise they need to write in a formal style, as if talking to a respected elderly person (who might not understand shortened language and emoticons), and that this is not the 'formally correct' word</p><p>It is not that they are writing as they speak and txt, it is that they do not seem to realise that you should change your writing style depending on your audience</p><p>Do they also speak to their friends, parents, teachers, and at job interviews, all in the same style.... if so it will affect their job prospects, as will a lack of appropriate writing skills...</p><p>Language evolves and so does formal/informal writing, and formal/informal speaking,  but they have always been different, and this is what these students seem to be lacking, written language has to more formal than spoken language or meaning is lost (you don't have the facial, body language and other non-verbal clues)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The point is not that we do not know what 'cuz ' means , it is that they are writing academic paper and so should realise they need to write in a formal style , as if talking to a respected elderly person ( who might not understand shortened language and emoticons ) , and that this is not the 'formally correct ' wordIt is not that they are writing as they speak and txt , it is that they do not seem to realise that you should change your writing style depending on your audienceDo they also speak to their friends , parents , teachers , and at job interviews , all in the same style.... if so it will affect their job prospects , as will a lack of appropriate writing skills...Language evolves and so does formal/informal writing , and formal/informal speaking , but they have always been different , and this is what these students seem to be lacking , written language has to more formal than spoken language or meaning is lost ( you do n't have the facial , body language and other non-verbal clues )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The point is not that we do not know what 'cuz' means, it is that they are writing  academic paper and so should realise they need to write in a formal style, as if talking to a respected elderly person (who might not understand shortened language and emoticons), and that this is not the 'formally correct' wordIt is not that they are writing as they speak and txt, it is that they do not seem to realise that you should change your writing style depending on your audienceDo they also speak to their friends, parents, teachers, and at job interviews, all in the same style.... if so it will affect their job prospects, as will a lack of appropriate writing skills...Language evolves and so does formal/informal writing, and formal/informal speaking,  but they have always been different, and this is what these students seem to be lacking, written language has to more formal than spoken language or meaning is lost (you don't have the facial, body language and other non-verbal clues)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979892</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980606</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265037420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>You know what is the most terrifying?
I'm a foreigner in England and found that I know grammar and spelling better than most of my English friends. We're talking about people who passed through basic education system here, and at least half of them also through higher studies.
If you ask them about grammar, apostrophe rules or spelling they will just say they never studied this. Nobody ever though them this. Then you wonder why all this is in total shambles.</p><p>Problem is that all kids are prepared to pass those stupid tests and outside them they know jack shit. There are exceptions, but general population is similar to Idiocracy one.</p></div><p>That's the funny thing.  Many of the dumber grammatical errors you see on Slashdot are made by people who are evidently native English speakers.  They're things that should have been corrected in grade school, like problems with "your" and "you're", or "their", "there" and "they're".  As they occur in trends like many other mindless activities, the latest one is "loose" vs. "lose".
<br> <br>
The tests and their failure to guarantee competence when passed is a natural result of the exaggerated and undue emphasis that schools place on memorization by rote.  If you had a perfect photographic memory, you would breeze through most any modern school curriculum.  That doesn't mean you'd actually understand what you have memorized or be able to adapt that knowledge to different situations.
<br> <br>
We have created something of a Catch-22 or self-fulfilling prophecy: the standardized test dictates what the students are taught, so according to that test the students have learned.  Nowhere in this do you find a regard for whether they have any real mastery of that knowledge.  They're just being taught to regurgitate information with no real understanding and I could teach a parrot to do that.  Writing in particular is generally a creative process.  It has mechanical elements but does not really lend itself to mechanized repetition; it's not like operating a machine.  It's no surprise to me that this is where the incompetence is most evident.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You know what is the most terrifying ?
I 'm a foreigner in England and found that I know grammar and spelling better than most of my English friends .
We 're talking about people who passed through basic education system here , and at least half of them also through higher studies .
If you ask them about grammar , apostrophe rules or spelling they will just say they never studied this .
Nobody ever though them this .
Then you wonder why all this is in total shambles.Problem is that all kids are prepared to pass those stupid tests and outside them they know jack shit .
There are exceptions , but general population is similar to Idiocracy one.That 's the funny thing .
Many of the dumber grammatical errors you see on Slashdot are made by people who are evidently native English speakers .
They 're things that should have been corrected in grade school , like problems with " your " and " you 're " , or " their " , " there " and " they 're " .
As they occur in trends like many other mindless activities , the latest one is " loose " vs. " lose " . The tests and their failure to guarantee competence when passed is a natural result of the exaggerated and undue emphasis that schools place on memorization by rote .
If you had a perfect photographic memory , you would breeze through most any modern school curriculum .
That does n't mean you 'd actually understand what you have memorized or be able to adapt that knowledge to different situations .
We have created something of a Catch-22 or self-fulfilling prophecy : the standardized test dictates what the students are taught , so according to that test the students have learned .
Nowhere in this do you find a regard for whether they have any real mastery of that knowledge .
They 're just being taught to regurgitate information with no real understanding and I could teach a parrot to do that .
Writing in particular is generally a creative process .
It has mechanical elements but does not really lend itself to mechanized repetition ; it 's not like operating a machine .
It 's no surprise to me that this is where the incompetence is most evident .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You know what is the most terrifying?
I'm a foreigner in England and found that I know grammar and spelling better than most of my English friends.
We're talking about people who passed through basic education system here, and at least half of them also through higher studies.
If you ask them about grammar, apostrophe rules or spelling they will just say they never studied this.
Nobody ever though them this.
Then you wonder why all this is in total shambles.Problem is that all kids are prepared to pass those stupid tests and outside them they know jack shit.
There are exceptions, but general population is similar to Idiocracy one.That's the funny thing.
Many of the dumber grammatical errors you see on Slashdot are made by people who are evidently native English speakers.
They're things that should have been corrected in grade school, like problems with "your" and "you're", or "their", "there" and "they're".
As they occur in trends like many other mindless activities, the latest one is "loose" vs. "lose".
 
The tests and their failure to guarantee competence when passed is a natural result of the exaggerated and undue emphasis that schools place on memorization by rote.
If you had a perfect photographic memory, you would breeze through most any modern school curriculum.
That doesn't mean you'd actually understand what you have memorized or be able to adapt that knowledge to different situations.
We have created something of a Catch-22 or self-fulfilling prophecy: the standardized test dictates what the students are taught, so according to that test the students have learned.
Nowhere in this do you find a regard for whether they have any real mastery of that knowledge.
They're just being taught to regurgitate information with no real understanding and I could teach a parrot to do that.
Writing in particular is generally a creative process.
It has mechanical elements but does not really lend itself to mechanized repetition; it's not like operating a machine.
It's no surprise to me that this is where the incompetence is most evident.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980048</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980190</id>
	<title>This is pretty ridiculous</title>
	<author>melatonin</author>
	<datestamp>1265035560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have a hard time believing this (though I didn't read the article), but I suppose it's true. I grew up in Ontario. When I was in high school in the 90s, they really grilled us for spelling &amp; grammar, especially "comma splices." I remember in particular the teachers "threatening" us by claiming that in university you lost something like 10\% for each spelling mistake (though from my experience, they really didn't care outside of literature courses).</p><p>Where I work now we have a steady supply of co-op students. I remember we had this one student who made liberal use of chat-speak... over IM. I was actually pretty surprised to see a client-facing email of hers written perfectly eloquently.</p><p>If people are using 'cuz' in academic papers, they deserve to fail. Dang idiots.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have a hard time believing this ( though I did n't read the article ) , but I suppose it 's true .
I grew up in Ontario .
When I was in high school in the 90s , they really grilled us for spelling &amp; grammar , especially " comma splices .
" I remember in particular the teachers " threatening " us by claiming that in university you lost something like 10 \ % for each spelling mistake ( though from my experience , they really did n't care outside of literature courses ) .Where I work now we have a steady supply of co-op students .
I remember we had this one student who made liberal use of chat-speak... over IM .
I was actually pretty surprised to see a client-facing email of hers written perfectly eloquently.If people are using 'cuz ' in academic papers , they deserve to fail .
Dang idiots .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have a hard time believing this (though I didn't read the article), but I suppose it's true.
I grew up in Ontario.
When I was in high school in the 90s, they really grilled us for spelling &amp; grammar, especially "comma splices.
" I remember in particular the teachers "threatening" us by claiming that in university you lost something like 10\% for each spelling mistake (though from my experience, they really didn't care outside of literature courses).Where I work now we have a steady supply of co-op students.
I remember we had this one student who made liberal use of chat-speak... over IM.
I was actually pretty surprised to see a client-facing email of hers written perfectly eloquently.If people are using 'cuz' in academic papers, they deserve to fail.
Dang idiots.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981646</id>
	<title>A few thoughts from a professional English teacher</title>
	<author>supercrisp</author>
	<datestamp>1265041860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Item One: I teach four classes a semester in English literature and composition at a major state university. I bring home 2,000/month. Anyone choosing such a career is an idiot. I'll confess: I'm an idiot. I have a doctorate degree, a nearly-complete book manuscript, published poems, published interviews with major poets, and a chapter in a forthcoming book of literary criticism. I can't get a better job. There are simply too many people with doctorates in English. We're all idiots. Item II: My dad was a HS teacher, and anyone who will take the sort of crap he did from parents for years and years is also an idiot. He worked very hard, grading, taking night classes for further certification. We were never able to live in a better neighborhood. People were shot in our back yard. Dad got death threats for failing a football player. Item C: my wife is getting an MS in instructional technology. A couple of women in one of her courses bragged about never having found it necessary to set foot in the university library. Item IV: during my first semester here at Big Football U., I had an honors student whose grammar was so bad that I could understand about one sentence in every three. Mind you, I also have training in English as a Second Language and how to recognize the signs of disability in writing, and this young woman was an intelligent native speaker, yet her writing was still like drunken Dada raving to me. I asked her what her about her family. Her dad is an English professor at Second Rate U. over in our state capitol. Awesome. Oh, P.S.: I was a National Merit Scholar and went to university on a full-ride academic scholarship and graduated cum laude. I have wasted my talent and potential trying to teach others. I am an idiot.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Item One : I teach four classes a semester in English literature and composition at a major state university .
I bring home 2,000/month .
Anyone choosing such a career is an idiot .
I 'll confess : I 'm an idiot .
I have a doctorate degree , a nearly-complete book manuscript , published poems , published interviews with major poets , and a chapter in a forthcoming book of literary criticism .
I ca n't get a better job .
There are simply too many people with doctorates in English .
We 're all idiots .
Item II : My dad was a HS teacher , and anyone who will take the sort of crap he did from parents for years and years is also an idiot .
He worked very hard , grading , taking night classes for further certification .
We were never able to live in a better neighborhood .
People were shot in our back yard .
Dad got death threats for failing a football player .
Item C : my wife is getting an MS in instructional technology .
A couple of women in one of her courses bragged about never having found it necessary to set foot in the university library .
Item IV : during my first semester here at Big Football U. , I had an honors student whose grammar was so bad that I could understand about one sentence in every three .
Mind you , I also have training in English as a Second Language and how to recognize the signs of disability in writing , and this young woman was an intelligent native speaker , yet her writing was still like drunken Dada raving to me .
I asked her what her about her family .
Her dad is an English professor at Second Rate U. over in our state capitol .
Awesome. Oh , P.S .
: I was a National Merit Scholar and went to university on a full-ride academic scholarship and graduated cum laude .
I have wasted my talent and potential trying to teach others .
I am an idiot .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Item One: I teach four classes a semester in English literature and composition at a major state university.
I bring home 2,000/month.
Anyone choosing such a career is an idiot.
I'll confess: I'm an idiot.
I have a doctorate degree, a nearly-complete book manuscript, published poems, published interviews with major poets, and a chapter in a forthcoming book of literary criticism.
I can't get a better job.
There are simply too many people with doctorates in English.
We're all idiots.
Item II: My dad was a HS teacher, and anyone who will take the sort of crap he did from parents for years and years is also an idiot.
He worked very hard, grading, taking night classes for further certification.
We were never able to live in a better neighborhood.
People were shot in our back yard.
Dad got death threats for failing a football player.
Item C: my wife is getting an MS in instructional technology.
A couple of women in one of her courses bragged about never having found it necessary to set foot in the university library.
Item IV: during my first semester here at Big Football U., I had an honors student whose grammar was so bad that I could understand about one sentence in every three.
Mind you, I also have training in English as a Second Language and how to recognize the signs of disability in writing, and this young woman was an intelligent native speaker, yet her writing was still like drunken Dada raving to me.
I asked her what her about her family.
Her dad is an English professor at Second Rate U. over in our state capitol.
Awesome. Oh, P.S.
: I was a National Merit Scholar and went to university on a full-ride academic scholarship and graduated cum laude.
I have wasted my talent and potential trying to teach others.
I am an idiot.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980330</id>
	<title>Re:Spell Checking</title>
	<author>igb</author>
	<datestamp>1265036280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm currently marking an essay which includes several references to things being defiantly true or defiantly false.  It's possible that this is referring to the intensity of debate.  It's more likely someone who misspelt definitely, an error which a spell-check won't pick up.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm currently marking an essay which includes several references to things being defiantly true or defiantly false .
It 's possible that this is referring to the intensity of debate .
It 's more likely someone who misspelt definitely , an error which a spell-check wo n't pick up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm currently marking an essay which includes several references to things being defiantly true or defiantly false.
It's possible that this is referring to the intensity of debate.
It's more likely someone who misspelt definitely, an error which a spell-check won't pick up.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979850</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982810</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>addie</author>
	<datestamp>1265046420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Presently, the majority of the students I am watching as I write this<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... </i></p><p>Not that I don't agree with the rest of your comment, but what kind of an example is being set by spending personal time posting on Slashdot while your students sit there refusing to do their work?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Presently , the majority of the students I am watching as I write this ... Not that I do n't agree with the rest of your comment , but what kind of an example is being set by spending personal time posting on Slashdot while your students sit there refusing to do their work ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Presently, the majority of the students I am watching as I write this ... Not that I don't agree with the rest of your comment, but what kind of an example is being set by spending personal time posting on Slashdot while your students sit there refusing to do their work?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981088</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30985574</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>Kpau</author>
	<datestamp>1265057520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>aye.... parents (in the majority) don't seem to understand they're still the central part of the educational process and they've signed up for the 3rd generation results of the Dr. Spock "we're all adorable creative little Bohemians and everything we do is wonderful"</htmltext>
<tokenext>aye.... parents ( in the majority ) do n't seem to understand they 're still the central part of the educational process and they 've signed up for the 3rd generation results of the Dr. Spock " we 're all adorable creative little Bohemians and everything we do is wonderful "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>aye.... parents (in the majority) don't seem to understand they're still the central part of the educational process and they've signed up for the 3rd generation results of the Dr. Spock "we're all adorable creative little Bohemians and everything we do is wonderful"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979950</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983470</id>
	<title>Re:And this is how we die</title>
	<author>DavidTC</author>
	<datestamp>1265049060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think I should point out that comparing domestic college students to foreign college students is statistically stupid. Foreign students are self selected to be a) at least average intelligence, or they couldn't get through all the 'student acceptance and visa' crap, b) possibly higher, as they're often from cultures where only the very intelligent are expected to go to to college, and c) highly motivated to learn, as they moved to another country to do that.</p><p>
Also, 'public debate' is not such. We have a couple of very vocal morons and a news that covers them as if they were 'public debate'. That's not 'public debate', that's 'slander to get fence sitters to pull the level for the other guy' and 'blatant lies to rile up the base'.</p><p>
Actual people themselves, however, still have plenty of reasonable stances on issues.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think I should point out that comparing domestic college students to foreign college students is statistically stupid .
Foreign students are self selected to be a ) at least average intelligence , or they could n't get through all the 'student acceptance and visa ' crap , b ) possibly higher , as they 're often from cultures where only the very intelligent are expected to go to to college , and c ) highly motivated to learn , as they moved to another country to do that .
Also , 'public debate ' is not such .
We have a couple of very vocal morons and a news that covers them as if they were 'public debate' .
That 's not 'public debate ' , that 's 'slander to get fence sitters to pull the level for the other guy ' and 'blatant lies to rile up the base' .
Actual people themselves , however , still have plenty of reasonable stances on issues .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think I should point out that comparing domestic college students to foreign college students is statistically stupid.
Foreign students are self selected to be a) at least average intelligence, or they couldn't get through all the 'student acceptance and visa' crap, b) possibly higher, as they're often from cultures where only the very intelligent are expected to go to to college, and c) highly motivated to learn, as they moved to another country to do that.
Also, 'public debate' is not such.
We have a couple of very vocal morons and a news that covers them as if they were 'public debate'.
That's not 'public debate', that's 'slander to get fence sitters to pull the level for the other guy' and 'blatant lies to rile up the base'.
Actual people themselves, however, still have plenty of reasonable stances on issues.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980386</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983222</id>
	<title>Re:Schools</title>
	<author>shutdown -p now</author>
	<datestamp>1265047980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>How the hell do those people pass schools without anyone telling them that something like that in official texts is bad, BAD, *BAD* in that country?</p></div><p>They are being told, they're just too busy texting each other to hear.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>How the hell do those people pass schools without anyone telling them that something like that in official texts is bad , BAD , * BAD * in that country ? They are being told , they 're just too busy texting each other to hear .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How the hell do those people pass schools without anyone telling them that something like that in official texts is bad, BAD, *BAD* in that country?They are being told, they're just too busy texting each other to hear.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979858</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30988646</id>
	<title>If you want to do your own research...</title>
	<author>gilgongo</author>
	<datestamp>1265025660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Log on to Facebook and pick some random college dudes and duettes, and ask them to friend you. Most of them will oblige.</p><p>Now marvel at the incredibly unintelligible friends feed you will start to see. It's fascinating. So too is their willingness for their friends to friend you, even though nobody knows who the hell you are.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Log on to Facebook and pick some random college dudes and duettes , and ask them to friend you .
Most of them will oblige.Now marvel at the incredibly unintelligible friends feed you will start to see .
It 's fascinating .
So too is their willingness for their friends to friend you , even though nobody knows who the hell you are .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Log on to Facebook and pick some random college dudes and duettes, and ask them to friend you.
Most of them will oblige.Now marvel at the incredibly unintelligible friends feed you will start to see.
It's fascinating.
So too is their willingness for their friends to friend you, even though nobody knows who the hell you are.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981510</id>
	<title>mmmm ... cheese</title>
	<author>kikito</author>
	<datestamp>1265041320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>mmmm<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... cheese</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>mmmm ... cheese</tokentext>
<sentencetext>mmmm ... cheese</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980706</id>
	<title>Just to be pedantic....</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265037960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's an interjection.  And it's spelled "curiosity".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's an interjection .
And it 's spelled " curiosity " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's an interjection.
And it's spelled "curiosity".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979898</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980094</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe it's not so bad</title>
	<author>Tim C</author>
	<datestamp>1265035200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Languages do evolve, but that's no excuse for being illiterate because "ppl no wot i mean, innit?"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Languages do evolve , but that 's no excuse for being illiterate because " ppl no wot i mean , innit ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Languages do evolve, but that's no excuse for being illiterate because "ppl no wot i mean, innit?
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979828</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980290</id>
	<title>LOL</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265036040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What a Maroon</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What a Maroon</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What a Maroon</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980458</id>
	<title>It's Canada</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265036820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Has there been any increase in Quebecois students studying at Waterloo?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Has there been any increase in Quebecois students studying at Waterloo ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Has there been any increase in Quebecois students studying at Waterloo?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30989194</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>cheftw</author>
	<datestamp>1265027820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Some people in England do learn the grammar, or so I've come to believe. In fact the best way I've found of telling whether someone is British/Irish or not is seeing if they can get the real nuanced stuff that foreigners fudge.</p><p>In other words, I submit a counter-anecdote, whatcha gunna do?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Some people in England do learn the grammar , or so I 've come to believe .
In fact the best way I 've found of telling whether someone is British/Irish or not is seeing if they can get the real nuanced stuff that foreigners fudge.In other words , I submit a counter-anecdote , wha t cha gunna do ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Some people in England do learn the grammar, or so I've come to believe.
In fact the best way I've found of telling whether someone is British/Irish or not is seeing if they can get the real nuanced stuff that foreigners fudge.In other words, I submit a counter-anecdote, whatcha gunna do?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30987526</id>
	<title>Re:And this is how we die</title>
	<author>Falconhell</author>
	<datestamp>1265020860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Oh the irony, a post with no capitals in a thread about grammar and spelling gets +4 insigthful.</p><p>I wonder if this guy is Circletimesqaure's brother.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Oh the irony , a post with no capitals in a thread about grammar and spelling gets + 4 insigthful.I wonder if this guy is Circletimesqaure 's brother .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Oh the irony, a post with no capitals in a thread about grammar and spelling gets +4 insigthful.I wonder if this guy is Circletimesqaure's brother.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979890</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980182</id>
	<title>Oh my.</title>
	<author>dsavi</author>
	<datestamp>1265035500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I fear for my generation.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I fear for my generation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I fear for my generation.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980988</id>
	<title>Re:And this is how we die</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265039280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"K-12 education is as much babysitting as teaching"</p><p>With one additional rule. You cannot touch the student.  Punishment for behavior issues is non-existent anymore because of the threat of lawsuits for daring to discipline someone's little angel. As a result, one idiot in a classroom is able to disrupt an entire group of those who may be attempting to learn something.  One fool brings the entire house of cards down. . . . When I was growing up ( Gen X if you care ) you didn't DARE act up in school.  If you did you KNEW your ass was in for it from both the school and the parents when you got home. Would be grounded for months IF I was that lucky. . .</p><p>I don't blame teachers nearly as much as the students they are attempting to teach.  There is no recourse for them for the aforementioned students and they are under pressure from the administration to ensure little Johnny / Susie knows just enough to pass the State Exit Exams and that's it.  So much pressure, in fact, many schools have been caught cheating on them.</p><p>Everyone loves to blame the damn teachers or their unions for the problem within the school system. After all, the CHILDREN within the system ( not all of them, but enough to wreak havoc )  can't possibly be at fault here right ?  Not our darling little angels who all want 4.0 GPA and have dreams of becoming doctors and ( gasp ) lawyers. I would LOVE to hear how folks would fix this given the rules that are currently in place with no expectation of being altered anytime in the near future.  Personally I would make school only mandatory to the eighth grade.  Past that, those who were serious about an education would be required to pass an entrance exam ( similar to college entrance requirements ) before being given the blessing to continue on.  After all, the teachers cannot force kiddos to learn anything.  There has to be some motivation / initiative on the child's part before the material will actually "stick" and become something useful.</p><p>Filling a classroom full of illiterates who do not wish to be there because of a very outdated law is a waste of time and resources on everyone involved.  Not every child is going to be a ( insert high education requirement job here ) regardless of the wishes of their parents.  It's just not realistic.  Forcing them to be there not only costs more, but helps to destroy the dreams of those who DO wish to actually learn something.  There are some who are intelligent enough to know that a career in Fast Food isn't a very rewarding one. Unfortunately, they are collateral damage based on how the current laws are written.</p><p>Get rid of the assholes who have no desire to learn or even be IN school, and you'll likely see vast improvements across the board.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" K-12 education is as much babysitting as teaching " With one additional rule .
You can not touch the student .
Punishment for behavior issues is non-existent anymore because of the threat of lawsuits for daring to discipline someone 's little angel .
As a result , one idiot in a classroom is able to disrupt an entire group of those who may be attempting to learn something .
One fool brings the entire house of cards down .
. .
. When I was growing up ( Gen X if you care ) you did n't DARE act up in school .
If you did you KNEW your ass was in for it from both the school and the parents when you got home .
Would be grounded for months IF I was that lucky .
. .I do n't blame teachers nearly as much as the students they are attempting to teach .
There is no recourse for them for the aforementioned students and they are under pressure from the administration to ensure little Johnny / Susie knows just enough to pass the State Exit Exams and that 's it .
So much pressure , in fact , many schools have been caught cheating on them.Everyone loves to blame the damn teachers or their unions for the problem within the school system .
After all , the CHILDREN within the system ( not all of them , but enough to wreak havoc ) ca n't possibly be at fault here right ?
Not our darling little angels who all want 4.0 GPA and have dreams of becoming doctors and ( gasp ) lawyers .
I would LOVE to hear how folks would fix this given the rules that are currently in place with no expectation of being altered anytime in the near future .
Personally I would make school only mandatory to the eighth grade .
Past that , those who were serious about an education would be required to pass an entrance exam ( similar to college entrance requirements ) before being given the blessing to continue on .
After all , the teachers can not force kiddos to learn anything .
There has to be some motivation / initiative on the child 's part before the material will actually " stick " and become something useful.Filling a classroom full of illiterates who do not wish to be there because of a very outdated law is a waste of time and resources on everyone involved .
Not every child is going to be a ( insert high education requirement job here ) regardless of the wishes of their parents .
It 's just not realistic .
Forcing them to be there not only costs more , but helps to destroy the dreams of those who DO wish to actually learn something .
There are some who are intelligent enough to know that a career in Fast Food is n't a very rewarding one .
Unfortunately , they are collateral damage based on how the current laws are written.Get rid of the assholes who have no desire to learn or even be IN school , and you 'll likely see vast improvements across the board .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"K-12 education is as much babysitting as teaching"With one additional rule.
You cannot touch the student.
Punishment for behavior issues is non-existent anymore because of the threat of lawsuits for daring to discipline someone's little angel.
As a result, one idiot in a classroom is able to disrupt an entire group of those who may be attempting to learn something.
One fool brings the entire house of cards down.
. .
. When I was growing up ( Gen X if you care ) you didn't DARE act up in school.
If you did you KNEW your ass was in for it from both the school and the parents when you got home.
Would be grounded for months IF I was that lucky.
. .I don't blame teachers nearly as much as the students they are attempting to teach.
There is no recourse for them for the aforementioned students and they are under pressure from the administration to ensure little Johnny / Susie knows just enough to pass the State Exit Exams and that's it.
So much pressure, in fact, many schools have been caught cheating on them.Everyone loves to blame the damn teachers or their unions for the problem within the school system.
After all, the CHILDREN within the system ( not all of them, but enough to wreak havoc )  can't possibly be at fault here right ?
Not our darling little angels who all want 4.0 GPA and have dreams of becoming doctors and ( gasp ) lawyers.
I would LOVE to hear how folks would fix this given the rules that are currently in place with no expectation of being altered anytime in the near future.
Personally I would make school only mandatory to the eighth grade.
Past that, those who were serious about an education would be required to pass an entrance exam ( similar to college entrance requirements ) before being given the blessing to continue on.
After all, the teachers cannot force kiddos to learn anything.
There has to be some motivation / initiative on the child's part before the material will actually "stick" and become something useful.Filling a classroom full of illiterates who do not wish to be there because of a very outdated law is a waste of time and resources on everyone involved.
Not every child is going to be a ( insert high education requirement job here ) regardless of the wishes of their parents.
It's just not realistic.
Forcing them to be there not only costs more, but helps to destroy the dreams of those who DO wish to actually learn something.
There are some who are intelligent enough to know that a career in Fast Food isn't a very rewarding one.
Unfortunately, they are collateral damage based on how the current laws are written.Get rid of the assholes who have no desire to learn or even be IN school, and you'll likely see vast improvements across the board.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980148</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981244</id>
	<title>Re:Eats, Shoots, and Leaves</title>
	<author>apoc.famine</author>
	<datestamp>1265040300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's like helping your uncle Jack off a horse...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's like helping your uncle Jack off a horse.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's like helping your uncle Jack off a horse...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979936</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980052</id>
	<title>I remember that at UW...</title>
	<author>thirty-seven</author>
	<datestamp>1265035020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This "simple English test" had been a requirement at the University of Waterloo for a while.  When I started there in 1998,  all new students in all faculties and programs had to satisfy an English reading/writing requirement by the end of their first year.  This meant either passing the written test or showing that you achieved a grade of 80\% (considered an <i>A</i> in Canada) in your senior university-track English class in high school in Ontario.  Because the entrance requirements were pretty high and because students' senior high school English class had to be included in the six senior grades that students submitted with their application, I remember being surprised that so many of my fellow math and computer science students had to write the exam.  They all passed, though.  Some of my friends had to write the test not because they had poor grades in high school English but because they went to high school in another province or country.  At the time my impression was that the test would be pretty easy for almost any university student whose first language was English.  However, I didn't actually see the test myself.</p><p>I heard about this on the radio yesterday, and they said that the University of Waterloo is one of the few in Canada with such a requirement.</p><p>By the way, it is never properly called "Waterloo University".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This " simple English test " had been a requirement at the University of Waterloo for a while .
When I started there in 1998 , all new students in all faculties and programs had to satisfy an English reading/writing requirement by the end of their first year .
This meant either passing the written test or showing that you achieved a grade of 80 \ % ( considered an A in Canada ) in your senior university-track English class in high school in Ontario .
Because the entrance requirements were pretty high and because students ' senior high school English class had to be included in the six senior grades that students submitted with their application , I remember being surprised that so many of my fellow math and computer science students had to write the exam .
They all passed , though .
Some of my friends had to write the test not because they had poor grades in high school English but because they went to high school in another province or country .
At the time my impression was that the test would be pretty easy for almost any university student whose first language was English .
However , I did n't actually see the test myself.I heard about this on the radio yesterday , and they said that the University of Waterloo is one of the few in Canada with such a requirement.By the way , it is never properly called " Waterloo University " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This "simple English test" had been a requirement at the University of Waterloo for a while.
When I started there in 1998,  all new students in all faculties and programs had to satisfy an English reading/writing requirement by the end of their first year.
This meant either passing the written test or showing that you achieved a grade of 80\% (considered an A in Canada) in your senior university-track English class in high school in Ontario.
Because the entrance requirements were pretty high and because students' senior high school English class had to be included in the six senior grades that students submitted with their application, I remember being surprised that so many of my fellow math and computer science students had to write the exam.
They all passed, though.
Some of my friends had to write the test not because they had poor grades in high school English but because they went to high school in another province or country.
At the time my impression was that the test would be pretty easy for almost any university student whose first language was English.
However, I didn't actually see the test myself.I heard about this on the radio yesterday, and they said that the University of Waterloo is one of the few in Canada with such a requirement.By the way, it is never properly called "Waterloo University".</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30987986</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>ajlisows</author>
	<datestamp>1265022780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My wife just got done with her student teaching (high school Social Studies) and she would often bring home "Essays" to be graded.</p><p>Back when I was in school, I was always in the higher level classes.  I took AP Chem/History/English/Biology/English/Political Science/Physics.  Expectations for essays in History, English, and Political Science were obviously higher than they were for the standard classes.  I am not going to say that my high school essays were absolutely spectacular.  I still have some of them and have read them again.  They do contain grammar and spelling errors but not in abundance.  They are all at least 2 pages long and in most cases quite a bit longer.  They are well organized with an introduction which states the main points that I will cover, at least an entire paragraph devoted to said points, and a conclusion which reinforces the information that I presented.</p><p>The "Essay" questions that my wife's students answered.....wow.  I mean WOW!  They were MAYBE two paragraphs long but were mostly a single, four sentence paragraph.  Most of them contain random conjecture instead of solid facts.  A question such as "Discuss the reasons why President Lincoln freed the slaves" would be answered with something like "Cuz he liked black people and didn't want them to be slaves.  Having slaves is meen and lincoln wanted peeps to be not meen."</p><p>For some reason, reading these answers just made me really sad.  The obvious lack of knowledge, the obvious lack of command of written English, the obvious lack of any pride whatsoever in their school work, fear of what will happen when this generation is unleashed on the workforce and I am forced to cooperate with them in some form.  If these were Special Ed or Learning Disabled kids, I could understand.  No, they were standard kids from one of the better schools in the Public School system.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My wife just got done with her student teaching ( high school Social Studies ) and she would often bring home " Essays " to be graded.Back when I was in school , I was always in the higher level classes .
I took AP Chem/History/English/Biology/English/Political Science/Physics .
Expectations for essays in History , English , and Political Science were obviously higher than they were for the standard classes .
I am not going to say that my high school essays were absolutely spectacular .
I still have some of them and have read them again .
They do contain grammar and spelling errors but not in abundance .
They are all at least 2 pages long and in most cases quite a bit longer .
They are well organized with an introduction which states the main points that I will cover , at least an entire paragraph devoted to said points , and a conclusion which reinforces the information that I presented.The " Essay " questions that my wife 's students answered.....wow .
I mean WOW !
They were MAYBE two paragraphs long but were mostly a single , four sentence paragraph .
Most of them contain random conjecture instead of solid facts .
A question such as " Discuss the reasons why President Lincoln freed the slaves " would be answered with something like " Cuz he liked black people and did n't want them to be slaves .
Having slaves is meen and lincoln wanted peeps to be not meen .
" For some reason , reading these answers just made me really sad .
The obvious lack of knowledge , the obvious lack of command of written English , the obvious lack of any pride whatsoever in their school work , fear of what will happen when this generation is unleashed on the workforce and I am forced to cooperate with them in some form .
If these were Special Ed or Learning Disabled kids , I could understand .
No , they were standard kids from one of the better schools in the Public School system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My wife just got done with her student teaching (high school Social Studies) and she would often bring home "Essays" to be graded.Back when I was in school, I was always in the higher level classes.
I took AP Chem/History/English/Biology/English/Political Science/Physics.
Expectations for essays in History, English, and Political Science were obviously higher than they were for the standard classes.
I am not going to say that my high school essays were absolutely spectacular.
I still have some of them and have read them again.
They do contain grammar and spelling errors but not in abundance.
They are all at least 2 pages long and in most cases quite a bit longer.
They are well organized with an introduction which states the main points that I will cover, at least an entire paragraph devoted to said points, and a conclusion which reinforces the information that I presented.The "Essay" questions that my wife's students answered.....wow.
I mean WOW!
They were MAYBE two paragraphs long but were mostly a single, four sentence paragraph.
Most of them contain random conjecture instead of solid facts.
A question such as "Discuss the reasons why President Lincoln freed the slaves" would be answered with something like "Cuz he liked black people and didn't want them to be slaves.
Having slaves is meen and lincoln wanted peeps to be not meen.
"For some reason, reading these answers just made me really sad.
The obvious lack of knowledge, the obvious lack of command of written English, the obvious lack of any pride whatsoever in their school work, fear of what will happen when this generation is unleashed on the workforce and I am forced to cooperate with them in some form.
If these were Special Ed or Learning Disabled kids, I could understand.
No, they were standard kids from one of the better schools in the Public School system.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981088</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30985116</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265055960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, you talk like a fag, and your shit's all retarded.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , you talk like a fag , and your shit 's all retarded .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, you talk like a fag, and your shit's all retarded.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981088</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981724</id>
	<title>They're all here</title>
	<author>BigSes</author>
	<datestamp>1265042160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><b>"30\% of freshman university students fail a 'simple English test' at Waterloo University"</b> <p>
They're all on Slashdot, apparently.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" 30 \ % of freshman university students fail a 'simple English test ' at Waterloo University " They 're all on Slashdot , apparently .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"30\% of freshman university students fail a 'simple English test' at Waterloo University" 
They're all on Slashdot, apparently.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979996</id>
	<title>Pleasantly surprised</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265034720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm pleasantly surprised that these students actually <i>failed</i> their tests. I half-expect colleges to just dumb down the test and let them pass.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm pleasantly surprised that these students actually failed their tests .
I half-expect colleges to just dumb down the test and let them pass .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm pleasantly surprised that these students actually failed their tests.
I half-expect colleges to just dumb down the test and let them pass.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982202</id>
	<title>Re:Spell Checking</title>
	<author>Idarubicin</author>
	<datestamp>1265044140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>In my experience, people tend to make spelling errors and go with the spell chedking results without actually investigating the error.</p></div><p>
Perhaps my favorite example of this problem came from a biochemist colleague writing about gel electrophoresis.  I'll elide the heavy technical details of his experiment; the short version is that in order to detect proteins, a strongly-colored protein binding dye is soaked into the slab of gel (turning the whole thing vivid blue) and then the excess washed out (leaving visible blue bands of protein on a clear background.)  The first step is just called 'staining', while the second part is (appropriately enough) called 'destaining'.
</p><p>
Microsoft Word doesn't know the word 'destain', so "<i>We destained the gel...</i>" was helpfully corrected to "<i>We <b>disdained</b> the gel...</i>".  While the latter statement in some cases does reflect our feelings, it may not be an appropriate level of honesty for formal publication.
</p><p>
One more thing -- I'm far too petty to pass up the opportunity to note the obvious typo in "spell chedking", above.  If it was a troll for the spelling Nazis, or you have the sense to claim it was in retrospect, well done.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>In my experience , people tend to make spelling errors and go with the spell chedking results without actually investigating the error .
Perhaps my favorite example of this problem came from a biochemist colleague writing about gel electrophoresis .
I 'll elide the heavy technical details of his experiment ; the short version is that in order to detect proteins , a strongly-colored protein binding dye is soaked into the slab of gel ( turning the whole thing vivid blue ) and then the excess washed out ( leaving visible blue bands of protein on a clear background .
) The first step is just called 'staining ' , while the second part is ( appropriately enough ) called 'destaining' .
Microsoft Word does n't know the word 'destain ' , so " We destained the gel... " was helpfully corrected to " We disdained the gel... " .
While the latter statement in some cases does reflect our feelings , it may not be an appropriate level of honesty for formal publication .
One more thing -- I 'm far too petty to pass up the opportunity to note the obvious typo in " spell chedking " , above .
If it was a troll for the spelling Nazis , or you have the sense to claim it was in retrospect , well done .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In my experience, people tend to make spelling errors and go with the spell chedking results without actually investigating the error.
Perhaps my favorite example of this problem came from a biochemist colleague writing about gel electrophoresis.
I'll elide the heavy technical details of his experiment; the short version is that in order to detect proteins, a strongly-colored protein binding dye is soaked into the slab of gel (turning the whole thing vivid blue) and then the excess washed out (leaving visible blue bands of protein on a clear background.
)  The first step is just called 'staining', while the second part is (appropriately enough) called 'destaining'.
Microsoft Word doesn't know the word 'destain', so "We destained the gel..." was helpfully corrected to "We disdained the gel...".
While the latter statement in some cases does reflect our feelings, it may not be an appropriate level of honesty for formal publication.
One more thing -- I'm far too petty to pass up the opportunity to note the obvious typo in "spell chedking", above.
If it was a troll for the spelling Nazis, or you have the sense to claim it was in retrospect, well done.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979850</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30991738</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>Catmoves</author>
	<datestamp>1265047560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>"People learning English as a foreign language get taught proper grammar and only learn the vernacular later."

Oh my, Cedric. I have friends (we also take in stray dogs and cats) who have been entered in ESL courses, graduated and passed the citizenship test (yes, they were all in this country legally).
The horror stories they tell me about the classes are proof of idiocracy being rife and disseminated among all those about to become Americans.
I am told story after story about illegal Mexicans who treat the classes as though they are a joke, do not learn any real English (they do, however, get the "dirty" words, right) and yet when the class ends they receive a passing grade. I can only point out to my friends that they themselves are the real winners. They will be able to order dinner, read newspapers and books, and converse with us snobby collitch graduates. No, I do not know why they continually use the Mexican peon as an example. One told me about a Chinese male who spent all his class time cutting out paper designs.
I've also heard how one teacher of ESL (a graduate of a local high school) was asked by a student for some help in writing to a Senator. The teacher started out by having her write "To Whom It My Concern...." The rest of the letter only got worse and less grammatically correct.
You and I, fellow taxpayer, pay that ESL teacher for all the hard work.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" People learning English as a foreign language get taught proper grammar and only learn the vernacular later .
" Oh my , Cedric .
I have friends ( we also take in stray dogs and cats ) who have been entered in ESL courses , graduated and passed the citizenship test ( yes , they were all in this country legally ) .
The horror stories they tell me about the classes are proof of idiocracy being rife and disseminated among all those about to become Americans .
I am told story after story about illegal Mexicans who treat the classes as though they are a joke , do not learn any real English ( they do , however , get the " dirty " words , right ) and yet when the class ends they receive a passing grade .
I can only point out to my friends that they themselves are the real winners .
They will be able to order dinner , read newspapers and books , and converse with us snobby collitch graduates .
No , I do not know why they continually use the Mexican peon as an example .
One told me about a Chinese male who spent all his class time cutting out paper designs .
I 've also heard how one teacher of ESL ( a graduate of a local high school ) was asked by a student for some help in writing to a Senator .
The teacher started out by having her write " To Whom It My Concern.... " The rest of the letter only got worse and less grammatically correct .
You and I , fellow taxpayer , pay that ESL teacher for all the hard work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"People learning English as a foreign language get taught proper grammar and only learn the vernacular later.
"

Oh my, Cedric.
I have friends (we also take in stray dogs and cats) who have been entered in ESL courses, graduated and passed the citizenship test (yes, they were all in this country legally).
The horror stories they tell me about the classes are proof of idiocracy being rife and disseminated among all those about to become Americans.
I am told story after story about illegal Mexicans who treat the classes as though they are a joke, do not learn any real English (they do, however, get the "dirty" words, right) and yet when the class ends they receive a passing grade.
I can only point out to my friends that they themselves are the real winners.
They will be able to order dinner, read newspapers and books, and converse with us snobby collitch graduates.
No, I do not know why they continually use the Mexican peon as an example.
One told me about a Chinese male who spent all his class time cutting out paper designs.
I've also heard how one teacher of ESL (a graduate of a local high school) was asked by a student for some help in writing to a Senator.
The teacher started out by having her write "To Whom It My Concern...." The rest of the letter only got worse and less grammatically correct.
You and I, fellow taxpayer, pay that ESL teacher for all the hard work.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981334</id>
	<title>It makes no sense</title>
	<author>FirstTimeCaller</author>
	<datestamp>1265040660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I don't understand what the economic status of one's grandparents has to do with academic achievement.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I do n't understand what the economic status of one 's grandparents has to do with academic achievement .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I don't understand what the economic status of one's grandparents has to do with academic achievement.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982236</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>RogerWilco</author>
	<datestamp>1265044260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There is of course a certain bias that might explain a part of this phenomenon: People who have been able to learn English as a foreign language usually on average have a higher educational and cognitive level than those that you encounter speaking it as their native tongue.</p><p>Next to that I have the feeling that the educational system in especially the USA is performing very poorly in this regard. I can't compare myself, but I know people who went there for teaching positions at a University claim the average level of an 18 year old student is much lower than what they were used to. The other datum I have is that when I investigated the possibility to study in the USA for a year when I was 18, I found out that I would have been put students two years older than myself, as I was performing at their level (SAT test and such).</p><p>What I really can't get my head around is the mistakes native speakers make with things like "they're/their/there". For example: If I want to convey "They are in the house", I might say "They're in the house", but when forming that sentence in my head, there still is "are" in there, so I completely do not understand how someone can end up writing this as "there/their". The only one I can see making such a mistake is a six year old, who has been taught the alphabet but not much more, and just writes phonetically "Ter in te hous" or something to that effect.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There is of course a certain bias that might explain a part of this phenomenon : People who have been able to learn English as a foreign language usually on average have a higher educational and cognitive level than those that you encounter speaking it as their native tongue.Next to that I have the feeling that the educational system in especially the USA is performing very poorly in this regard .
I ca n't compare myself , but I know people who went there for teaching positions at a University claim the average level of an 18 year old student is much lower than what they were used to .
The other datum I have is that when I investigated the possibility to study in the USA for a year when I was 18 , I found out that I would have been put students two years older than myself , as I was performing at their level ( SAT test and such ) .What I really ca n't get my head around is the mistakes native speakers make with things like " they 're/their/there " .
For example : If I want to convey " They are in the house " , I might say " They 're in the house " , but when forming that sentence in my head , there still is " are " in there , so I completely do not understand how someone can end up writing this as " there/their " .
The only one I can see making such a mistake is a six year old , who has been taught the alphabet but not much more , and just writes phonetically " Ter in te hous " or something to that effect .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is of course a certain bias that might explain a part of this phenomenon: People who have been able to learn English as a foreign language usually on average have a higher educational and cognitive level than those that you encounter speaking it as their native tongue.Next to that I have the feeling that the educational system in especially the USA is performing very poorly in this regard.
I can't compare myself, but I know people who went there for teaching positions at a University claim the average level of an 18 year old student is much lower than what they were used to.
The other datum I have is that when I investigated the possibility to study in the USA for a year when I was 18, I found out that I would have been put students two years older than myself, as I was performing at their level (SAT test and such).What I really can't get my head around is the mistakes native speakers make with things like "they're/their/there".
For example: If I want to convey "They are in the house", I might say "They're in the house", but when forming that sentence in my head, there still is "are" in there, so I completely do not understand how someone can end up writing this as "there/their".
The only one I can see making such a mistake is a six year old, who has been taught the alphabet but not much more, and just writes phonetically "Ter in te hous" or something to that effect.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980048</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30986116</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>shadowrat</author>
	<datestamp>1265016000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think a lot of grammatical errors i make on slashdot are the result of hurried composition. I'm especially vulnerable to the "loose" vs "lose" mistake. i think "lose", but my hands fire out "loose". I sort of feel like my typing is faster than my thinking. If i were writing it by hand, i'd probably have time to notice my hand was about to start on a second "o".
<br> <br>
I also never capitalize i. I think of it as humility.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think a lot of grammatical errors i make on slashdot are the result of hurried composition .
I 'm especially vulnerable to the " loose " vs " lose " mistake .
i think " lose " , but my hands fire out " loose " .
I sort of feel like my typing is faster than my thinking .
If i were writing it by hand , i 'd probably have time to notice my hand was about to start on a second " o " .
I also never capitalize i. I think of it as humility .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think a lot of grammatical errors i make on slashdot are the result of hurried composition.
I'm especially vulnerable to the "loose" vs "lose" mistake.
i think "lose", but my hands fire out "loose".
I sort of feel like my typing is faster than my thinking.
If i were writing it by hand, i'd probably have time to notice my hand was about to start on a second "o".
I also never capitalize i. I think of it as humility.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980606</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.31003788</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265119560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>We're talking about people who passed through <strong>basic</strong> education system here</i>
<p>
Yes incredibly basic. 1 teacher to 35 pupils, 50 minute lessons, 1 text book between 3, candle light, no running water, i486's with windows 3.1.
</p><p>
Its a miracle that they can spell 'cu^Hoz' correctly.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We 're talking about people who passed through basic education system here Yes incredibly basic .
1 teacher to 35 pupils , 50 minute lessons , 1 text book between 3 , candle light , no running water , i486 's with windows 3.1 .
Its a miracle that they can spell 'cu ^ Hoz ' correctly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We're talking about people who passed through basic education system here

Yes incredibly basic.
1 teacher to 35 pupils, 50 minute lessons, 1 text book between 3, candle light, no running water, i486's with windows 3.1.
Its a miracle that they can spell 'cu^Hoz' correctly.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980048</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981970</id>
	<title>Color me surprised</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265043060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>When people don't understand how to use contractions and instead write it the way it sounds (thanks, Hooked on Phonics!), what do you expect? How many people write "could of" instead of "could've," the contraction for "could have"? (You can substitute "should" and "would" in there as well.) How many people don't understand the proper use of "their," "there," and "they're"?  How many people don't understand the difference between "its" and "it's," or "lose" and "loose"?</p><p>It's like people have said before my post.  Blame the parents who's precious little snowflakes just absolutely can't be doing anything wrong. It <i>must</i> be the fault of the teachers for attempting to uphold standards.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>When people do n't understand how to use contractions and instead write it the way it sounds ( thanks , Hooked on Phonics !
) , what do you expect ?
How many people write " could of " instead of " could 've , " the contraction for " could have " ?
( You can substitute " should " and " would " in there as well .
) How many people do n't understand the proper use of " their , " " there , " and " they 're " ?
How many people do n't understand the difference between " its " and " it 's , " or " lose " and " loose " ? It 's like people have said before my post .
Blame the parents who 's precious little snowflakes just absolutely ca n't be doing anything wrong .
It must be the fault of the teachers for attempting to uphold standards .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When people don't understand how to use contractions and instead write it the way it sounds (thanks, Hooked on Phonics!
), what do you expect?
How many people write "could of" instead of "could've," the contraction for "could have"?
(You can substitute "should" and "would" in there as well.
) How many people don't understand the proper use of "their," "there," and "they're"?
How many people don't understand the difference between "its" and "it's," or "lose" and "loose"?It's like people have said before my post.
Blame the parents who's precious little snowflakes just absolutely can't be doing anything wrong.
It must be the fault of the teachers for attempting to uphold standards.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981716</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265042100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The USA is in exactly the same situation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The USA is in exactly the same situation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The USA is in exactly the same situation.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981152</id>
	<title>Re:term paper on Shakespeare</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265039940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You're about a half a decade+ late on that one:</p><p>Tales for the Leet: http://uninteresting.myby.co.uk/noeffort/romjul.htm</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You 're about a half a decade + late on that one : Tales for the Leet : http : //uninteresting.myby.co.uk/noeffort/romjul.htm</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You're about a half a decade+ late on that one:Tales for the Leet: http://uninteresting.myby.co.uk/noeffort/romjul.htm</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979924</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30994246</id>
	<title>Re:Eats, Shoots, and Leaves</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265121360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>To quote the book of the above title:</p><p><div class="quote"><p>A panda walks into a caf&#233;. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and proceeds to fire it at the other patrons.</p><p>'Why?' asks the confused, surviving waiter amidst the carnage, as the panda makes towards the exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.</p><p>'Well, I'm a panda', he says, at the door. 'Look it up.'</p><p>The waiter turns to the relevant entry in the manual and, sure enough, finds an explanation. 'Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves.'</p></div><p>I've actually noticed myself becoming extremely careful about punctuation.  If you get your punctuation wrong when programming, all sorts of bad things happen.  English is just a natural extension of this.</p></div><p>the best part of 'eats, shoots, and leaves' was the explanation between protestantism and catholicism. protestant version:  when jesus was on the cross and the two others were being crucified with him, jesus said to the good one, 'verily i say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.'   catholic version: when jesus was on the cross and the two others were being crucified with him, jesus said to the good one, 'verily i say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.'</p><p>you will note that the catholic version allows for purgatory before going 'home', whereas the protestant version allows for immediate entry through the heavenly gates.   - a simple comma -</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>To quote the book of the above title : A panda walks into a caf   .
He orders a sandwich , eats it , then draws a gun and proceeds to fire it at the other patrons.'Why ?
' asks the confused , surviving waiter amidst the carnage , as the panda makes towards the exit .
The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder .
'Well , I 'm a panda ' , he says , at the door .
'Look it up .
'The waiter turns to the relevant entry in the manual and , sure enough , finds an explanation .
'Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal , native to China .
Eats , shoots and leaves .
'I 've actually noticed myself becoming extremely careful about punctuation .
If you get your punctuation wrong when programming , all sorts of bad things happen .
English is just a natural extension of this.the best part of 'eats , shoots , and leaves ' was the explanation between protestantism and catholicism .
protestant version : when jesus was on the cross and the two others were being crucified with him , jesus said to the good one , 'verily i say to you , today you will be with me in paradise .
' catholic version : when jesus was on the cross and the two others were being crucified with him , jesus said to the good one , 'verily i say to you today , you will be with me in paradise .
'you will note that the catholic version allows for purgatory before going 'home ' , whereas the protestant version allows for immediate entry through the heavenly gates .
- a simple comma -</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To quote the book of the above title:A panda walks into a café.
He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and proceeds to fire it at the other patrons.'Why?
' asks the confused, surviving waiter amidst the carnage, as the panda makes towards the exit.
The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.
'Well, I'm a panda', he says, at the door.
'Look it up.
'The waiter turns to the relevant entry in the manual and, sure enough, finds an explanation.
'Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China.
Eats, shoots and leaves.
'I've actually noticed myself becoming extremely careful about punctuation.
If you get your punctuation wrong when programming, all sorts of bad things happen.
English is just a natural extension of this.the best part of 'eats, shoots, and leaves' was the explanation between protestantism and catholicism.
protestant version:  when jesus was on the cross and the two others were being crucified with him, jesus said to the good one, 'verily i say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.
'   catholic version: when jesus was on the cross and the two others were being crucified with him, jesus said to the good one, 'verily i say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.
'you will note that the catholic version allows for purgatory before going 'home', whereas the protestant version allows for immediate entry through the heavenly gates.
- a simple comma -
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979936</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983078</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>PracticalM</author>
	<datestamp>1265047440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>In some ways it's actually worse.  My wife overheard parents talking about all the tough projects their kids had to do and how the parents ended up doing most of the work.  When they asked my wife what she did with her kids, she told them, "We just make them do the work.  How else will they learn?"<p>
This was for elementary school.  I was shocked as who cares about the kids grades in elementary school?  This is the time to learn and do it yourself.  My kids do their own planning for science fairs, pinewood derby, and school projects.  We help and advise but they have to do the work.
</p><p>
Some where along the line people have forgotten how important failure is.  You learn more by failing than getting it right the first time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In some ways it 's actually worse .
My wife overheard parents talking about all the tough projects their kids had to do and how the parents ended up doing most of the work .
When they asked my wife what she did with her kids , she told them , " We just make them do the work .
How else will they learn ?
" This was for elementary school .
I was shocked as who cares about the kids grades in elementary school ?
This is the time to learn and do it yourself .
My kids do their own planning for science fairs , pinewood derby , and school projects .
We help and advise but they have to do the work .
Some where along the line people have forgotten how important failure is .
You learn more by failing than getting it right the first time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In some ways it's actually worse.
My wife overheard parents talking about all the tough projects their kids had to do and how the parents ended up doing most of the work.
When they asked my wife what she did with her kids, she told them, "We just make them do the work.
How else will they learn?
"
This was for elementary school.
I was shocked as who cares about the kids grades in elementary school?
This is the time to learn and do it yourself.
My kids do their own planning for science fairs, pinewood derby, and school projects.
We help and advise but they have to do the work.
Some where along the line people have forgotten how important failure is.
You learn more by failing than getting it right the first time.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979950</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30985076</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265055780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Nobody ever <b>though</b> them this</p></div><p>You mean 'taught', not 'though'. Time for you to get off the high horse, buddy.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Nobody ever though them thisYou mean 'taught ' , not 'though' .
Time for you to get off the high horse , buddy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nobody ever though them thisYou mean 'taught', not 'though'.
Time for you to get off the high horse, buddy.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980048</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984444</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>goose-incarnated</author>
	<datestamp>1265053080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>My son is two and a half; I get him every 2nd weekend. His toys are all educational, but still (as I understand it) fun for him. This past weekend he was able to repeatedly identify and place in order all the letter of the alphabets (in the form of fridge magnets). He can count to 10. And all this from a child who doesn't live with both parents, who has his time split, who was the traumatised subject of an acrimonious divorce (which is still in the process of happening).<br> <br>

The reason my not-yet-3-year-old can and does read individual letters and digits off of road signs as we drive? My ex-wife (an attorney), myself (an academic) and my g/friend (a doctor) are all <b>very</b> involved in what stimulus he gets. Parental involvement can trump poor teaching methods, inexperienced teachers and even mutilated syllabi.
<br> <br>

I expect to continue being involved in his education, so I see no need to blather on about the dismal literacy of the next generation - I'm doing something about it for me and my own.</htmltext>
<tokenext>My son is two and a half ; I get him every 2nd weekend .
His toys are all educational , but still ( as I understand it ) fun for him .
This past weekend he was able to repeatedly identify and place in order all the letter of the alphabets ( in the form of fridge magnets ) .
He can count to 10 .
And all this from a child who does n't live with both parents , who has his time split , who was the traumatised subject of an acrimonious divorce ( which is still in the process of happening ) .
The reason my not-yet-3-year-old can and does read individual letters and digits off of road signs as we drive ?
My ex-wife ( an attorney ) , myself ( an academic ) and my g/friend ( a doctor ) are all very involved in what stimulus he gets .
Parental involvement can trump poor teaching methods , inexperienced teachers and even mutilated syllabi .
I expect to continue being involved in his education , so I see no need to blather on about the dismal literacy of the next generation - I 'm doing something about it for me and my own .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My son is two and a half; I get him every 2nd weekend.
His toys are all educational, but still (as I understand it) fun for him.
This past weekend he was able to repeatedly identify and place in order all the letter of the alphabets (in the form of fridge magnets).
He can count to 10.
And all this from a child who doesn't live with both parents, who has his time split, who was the traumatised subject of an acrimonious divorce (which is still in the process of happening).
The reason my not-yet-3-year-old can and does read individual letters and digits off of road signs as we drive?
My ex-wife (an attorney), myself (an academic) and my g/friend (a doctor) are all very involved in what stimulus he gets.
Parental involvement can trump poor teaching methods, inexperienced teachers and even mutilated syllabi.
I expect to continue being involved in his education, so I see no need to blather on about the dismal literacy of the next generation - I'm doing something about it for me and my own.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980576</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30989398</id>
	<title>Current UW student</title>
	<author>icegreentea</author>
	<datestamp>1265028780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Just going to comment on the ELPE itself. Currently (at least for Engineering students), you just have to pass the ELPE before you graduate. You're allowed one rewrite per year. The ELPE itself is a fairly standard "standardized essay" similar to the essay section of the SAT. You just walk in and pick a topic from a list, and start writing. That being said, among my friends and fellow students, we're all fairly sure that your ELPE score has little to do with your actual English proficiency. Genuinely good writers have scraped by with just barely passes, while incomplete essays with middle school vocabulary have passed with 80s or higher. In other words, its just like the SAT essay section. It doesn't test your essay writing abilities. It tests your ability to write standardized essays.<br><br>Now, that's not to say that there isn't a problem with the english proficiency of Waterloo students. While looking over my friends' resumes, and editing work from groupmates, I have found myself dismayed at what sat in front of me. Now, strictly speaking, most of the writing wasn't "wrong". Just bad. I'm sure part of this comes from being in the engineering program. It's a fairly widespread belief that many engineering students are in engineering partly because they suck at writing, and didn't want to deal with long essays to get through university. And to their dismay, engineering programs are full of writing. I can remember a classmate yelling in dismay when we were assigned to write a full technical report. "BUT THEY TOLD ME I WOULDN'T NEED TO WRITE IN ENGINEERING!". And Waterloo has a LOT of engineers. And math students. Who are also more or less in the same boat.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Just going to comment on the ELPE itself .
Currently ( at least for Engineering students ) , you just have to pass the ELPE before you graduate .
You 're allowed one rewrite per year .
The ELPE itself is a fairly standard " standardized essay " similar to the essay section of the SAT .
You just walk in and pick a topic from a list , and start writing .
That being said , among my friends and fellow students , we 're all fairly sure that your ELPE score has little to do with your actual English proficiency .
Genuinely good writers have scraped by with just barely passes , while incomplete essays with middle school vocabulary have passed with 80s or higher .
In other words , its just like the SAT essay section .
It does n't test your essay writing abilities .
It tests your ability to write standardized essays.Now , that 's not to say that there is n't a problem with the english proficiency of Waterloo students .
While looking over my friends ' resumes , and editing work from groupmates , I have found myself dismayed at what sat in front of me .
Now , strictly speaking , most of the writing was n't " wrong " .
Just bad .
I 'm sure part of this comes from being in the engineering program .
It 's a fairly widespread belief that many engineering students are in engineering partly because they suck at writing , and did n't want to deal with long essays to get through university .
And to their dismay , engineering programs are full of writing .
I can remember a classmate yelling in dismay when we were assigned to write a full technical report .
" BUT THEY TOLD ME I WOULD N'T NEED TO WRITE IN ENGINEERING ! " .
And Waterloo has a LOT of engineers .
And math students .
Who are also more or less in the same boat .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just going to comment on the ELPE itself.
Currently (at least for Engineering students), you just have to pass the ELPE before you graduate.
You're allowed one rewrite per year.
The ELPE itself is a fairly standard "standardized essay" similar to the essay section of the SAT.
You just walk in and pick a topic from a list, and start writing.
That being said, among my friends and fellow students, we're all fairly sure that your ELPE score has little to do with your actual English proficiency.
Genuinely good writers have scraped by with just barely passes, while incomplete essays with middle school vocabulary have passed with 80s or higher.
In other words, its just like the SAT essay section.
It doesn't test your essay writing abilities.
It tests your ability to write standardized essays.Now, that's not to say that there isn't a problem with the english proficiency of Waterloo students.
While looking over my friends' resumes, and editing work from groupmates, I have found myself dismayed at what sat in front of me.
Now, strictly speaking, most of the writing wasn't "wrong".
Just bad.
I'm sure part of this comes from being in the engineering program.
It's a fairly widespread belief that many engineering students are in engineering partly because they suck at writing, and didn't want to deal with long essays to get through university.
And to their dismay, engineering programs are full of writing.
I can remember a classmate yelling in dismay when we were assigned to write a full technical report.
"BUT THEY TOLD ME I WOULDN'T NEED TO WRITE IN ENGINEERING!".
And Waterloo has a LOT of engineers.
And math students.
Who are also more or less in the same boat.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30988372</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265024580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's a question of apportioning blame to everyone but yourself.  If your child is misbehaving or not getting good grades you can follow the difficult path of enforcing discipline, working with teachers to improve your child's performance and accepting honest feedback when it is offered; or you can follow the easy (at least in the short term) path of pampering your little darling to keep him quiet and finding convenient scapegoats to blame for the very problems you refuse to confront yourself.  Guess which path is more popular with lazy, apathetic parents and a school system whose funding is closely tied to reporting "good" grades?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's a question of apportioning blame to everyone but yourself .
If your child is misbehaving or not getting good grades you can follow the difficult path of enforcing discipline , working with teachers to improve your child 's performance and accepting honest feedback when it is offered ; or you can follow the easy ( at least in the short term ) path of pampering your little darling to keep him quiet and finding convenient scapegoats to blame for the very problems you refuse to confront yourself .
Guess which path is more popular with lazy , apathetic parents and a school system whose funding is closely tied to reporting " good " grades ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's a question of apportioning blame to everyone but yourself.
If your child is misbehaving or not getting good grades you can follow the difficult path of enforcing discipline, working with teachers to improve your child's performance and accepting honest feedback when it is offered; or you can follow the easy (at least in the short term) path of pampering your little darling to keep him quiet and finding convenient scapegoats to blame for the very problems you refuse to confront yourself.
Guess which path is more popular with lazy, apathetic parents and a school system whose funding is closely tied to reporting "good" grades?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979950</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983782</id>
	<title>The million dollar comma story</title>
	<author>ankhank</author>
	<datestamp>1265050380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Bad drafting can be expensive.  Here's a bit of the 'million dollar comma' story from a few years ago:<br><a href="http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20061026/185156.shtml" title="techdirt.com">http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20061026/185156.shtml</a> [techdirt.com]</p><p>"... basing the ruling on just the comma alone (a comma which we doubt the original lawyers really paid attention to at the beginning). However, the story is about to get a lot more interesting. Rogers is appealing, and they claim that they have a second version of the contract written in French that makes it much clearer that the purpose of the original clause is<nobr> <wbr></nobr>..."</p><p>That appeal in the end succeeded--because the French version of the contract was unambiguous:<br><a href="http://www.slaw.ca/2007/08/22/rogers-wins-comma-contract-dispute-with-bell-aliant/" title="www.slaw.ca">http://www.slaw.ca/2007/08/22/rogers-wins-comma-contract-dispute-with-bell-aliant/</a> [www.slaw.ca]</p><p>The teaching moment can be taking someone's ambiguous text, that could have been read three or four different ways, each of which would have different consequences if someone signed that agreement -- and breaking out each possible meaning, then asking the writer whether any of those alternatives captures the intended sense.</p><p>Good writers will know which one they meant.  Those who don't even know, well, it's a new age, man.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Bad drafting can be expensive .
Here 's a bit of the 'million dollar comma ' story from a few years ago : http : //www.techdirt.com/articles/20061026/185156.shtml [ techdirt.com ] " ... basing the ruling on just the comma alone ( a comma which we doubt the original lawyers really paid attention to at the beginning ) .
However , the story is about to get a lot more interesting .
Rogers is appealing , and they claim that they have a second version of the contract written in French that makes it much clearer that the purpose of the original clause is ... " That appeal in the end succeeded--because the French version of the contract was unambiguous : http : //www.slaw.ca/2007/08/22/rogers-wins-comma-contract-dispute-with-bell-aliant/ [ www.slaw.ca ] The teaching moment can be taking someone 's ambiguous text , that could have been read three or four different ways , each of which would have different consequences if someone signed that agreement -- and breaking out each possible meaning , then asking the writer whether any of those alternatives captures the intended sense.Good writers will know which one they meant .
Those who do n't even know , well , it 's a new age , man .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Bad drafting can be expensive.
Here's a bit of the 'million dollar comma' story from a few years ago:http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20061026/185156.shtml [techdirt.com]"... basing the ruling on just the comma alone (a comma which we doubt the original lawyers really paid attention to at the beginning).
However, the story is about to get a lot more interesting.
Rogers is appealing, and they claim that they have a second version of the contract written in French that makes it much clearer that the purpose of the original clause is ..."That appeal in the end succeeded--because the French version of the contract was unambiguous:http://www.slaw.ca/2007/08/22/rogers-wins-comma-contract-dispute-with-bell-aliant/ [www.slaw.ca]The teaching moment can be taking someone's ambiguous text, that could have been read three or four different ways, each of which would have different consequences if someone signed that agreement -- and breaking out each possible meaning, then asking the writer whether any of those alternatives captures the intended sense.Good writers will know which one they meant.
Those who don't even know, well, it's a new age, man.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980568</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981528</id>
	<title>Re:And this is how we die</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265041320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There's a treatise from one of the ancient Greeks (Socrates? I don't rememeber) bemoaning the younger generation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's a treatise from one of the ancient Greeks ( Socrates ?
I do n't rememeber ) bemoaning the younger generation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's a treatise from one of the ancient Greeks (Socrates?
I don't rememeber) bemoaning the younger generation.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979890</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30986774</id>
	<title>Re:Is it because of the decline of paper media?</title>
	<author>Areyoukiddingme</author>
	<datestamp>1265018220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You meant the decline in the utilization of paper media, but what you wrote is correct too - the quality of content in paper media has declined precipitously as well.  I'm appalled at the number of actual spelling errors I find in allegedly professionally proof-read novels printed in the last 20 years.  The grammar errors have been proliferating as well.  When even people who are paid to be correct aren't correct, where does that leave the masses?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You meant the decline in the utilization of paper media , but what you wrote is correct too - the quality of content in paper media has declined precipitously as well .
I 'm appalled at the number of actual spelling errors I find in allegedly professionally proof-read novels printed in the last 20 years .
The grammar errors have been proliferating as well .
When even people who are paid to be correct are n't correct , where does that leave the masses ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You meant the decline in the utilization of paper media, but what you wrote is correct too - the quality of content in paper media has declined precipitously as well.
I'm appalled at the number of actual spelling errors I find in allegedly professionally proof-read novels printed in the last 20 years.
The grammar errors have been proliferating as well.
When even people who are paid to be correct aren't correct, where does that leave the masses?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980292</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982278</id>
	<title>I blame Boomers.</title>
	<author>E. Edward Grey</author>
	<datestamp>1265044380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Boomers took a look at the structure of their culture, found it lacking, and abandoned all of it.  They did not like Dick and Jane, and so instead of improving upon it, they threw it out, and Chaucer along with it.  It remains probably the 2nd worst case of "throwing the baby out with the bath water" in civilized history, the first being the French Revolution.</p><p>Anything not meeting an immediate earthy need was discarded.  It began with "what the hell do I need with Brahms?  Brahms isn't going to get me laid."  Before long it became "what the hell do I need with religion?  Religion doesn't dazzle me like LSD does."  Finally it settled into "what the hell do I need with regulation and social betterment?  There's money to be made."</p><p>How can there be any wonder that our parents' and bosses' generation is so insufferably self-centered?  I find it pertinent that we talk about this within a week of J.D. Salinger's death, as his Holden Caulfield can be very illustrative in teaching us about the kind of dysfunctional, disenfranchised individual who currently runs our world.  As far as the Boomers are concerned, they have defined the culture through their rebellion, and discouraged us from absorbing the kinds of things that gave context to our surroundings.  We had to find them on our own.  The newest generation entering college now is so detached from context that they seem to be aliens in their own world.  They are idiots of course, but I don't hold them to account for it.  Their entire world has been scrubbed of context.</p><p>I'm in Generation X, and I don't pretend that we did everything right either.  We made mistakes, like fetishizing exclusivity, and needlessly feeding the rage of others.  Yet at the end of our troubled youth, we sat down, and we wrote about it, as a way of hoping to establish some kind of context.  I am slightly comforted in knowing that the next generation, if they hope to understand us any better, will at least be able to read something by Dave Eggers or the like.  What worries me is that the coming generation will not read any of it, because they are not interested, and will not leave anything of their own for posterity either.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Boomers took a look at the structure of their culture , found it lacking , and abandoned all of it .
They did not like Dick and Jane , and so instead of improving upon it , they threw it out , and Chaucer along with it .
It remains probably the 2nd worst case of " throwing the baby out with the bath water " in civilized history , the first being the French Revolution.Anything not meeting an immediate earthy need was discarded .
It began with " what the hell do I need with Brahms ?
Brahms is n't going to get me laid .
" Before long it became " what the hell do I need with religion ?
Religion does n't dazzle me like LSD does .
" Finally it settled into " what the hell do I need with regulation and social betterment ?
There 's money to be made .
" How can there be any wonder that our parents ' and bosses ' generation is so insufferably self-centered ?
I find it pertinent that we talk about this within a week of J.D .
Salinger 's death , as his Holden Caulfield can be very illustrative in teaching us about the kind of dysfunctional , disenfranchised individual who currently runs our world .
As far as the Boomers are concerned , they have defined the culture through their rebellion , and discouraged us from absorbing the kinds of things that gave context to our surroundings .
We had to find them on our own .
The newest generation entering college now is so detached from context that they seem to be aliens in their own world .
They are idiots of course , but I do n't hold them to account for it .
Their entire world has been scrubbed of context.I 'm in Generation X , and I do n't pretend that we did everything right either .
We made mistakes , like fetishizing exclusivity , and needlessly feeding the rage of others .
Yet at the end of our troubled youth , we sat down , and we wrote about it , as a way of hoping to establish some kind of context .
I am slightly comforted in knowing that the next generation , if they hope to understand us any better , will at least be able to read something by Dave Eggers or the like .
What worries me is that the coming generation will not read any of it , because they are not interested , and will not leave anything of their own for posterity either .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Boomers took a look at the structure of their culture, found it lacking, and abandoned all of it.
They did not like Dick and Jane, and so instead of improving upon it, they threw it out, and Chaucer along with it.
It remains probably the 2nd worst case of "throwing the baby out with the bath water" in civilized history, the first being the French Revolution.Anything not meeting an immediate earthy need was discarded.
It began with "what the hell do I need with Brahms?
Brahms isn't going to get me laid.
"  Before long it became "what the hell do I need with religion?
Religion doesn't dazzle me like LSD does.
"  Finally it settled into "what the hell do I need with regulation and social betterment?
There's money to be made.
"How can there be any wonder that our parents' and bosses' generation is so insufferably self-centered?
I find it pertinent that we talk about this within a week of J.D.
Salinger's death, as his Holden Caulfield can be very illustrative in teaching us about the kind of dysfunctional, disenfranchised individual who currently runs our world.
As far as the Boomers are concerned, they have defined the culture through their rebellion, and discouraged us from absorbing the kinds of things that gave context to our surroundings.
We had to find them on our own.
The newest generation entering college now is so detached from context that they seem to be aliens in their own world.
They are idiots of course, but I don't hold them to account for it.
Their entire world has been scrubbed of context.I'm in Generation X, and I don't pretend that we did everything right either.
We made mistakes, like fetishizing exclusivity, and needlessly feeding the rage of others.
Yet at the end of our troubled youth, we sat down, and we wrote about it, as a way of hoping to establish some kind of context.
I am slightly comforted in knowing that the next generation, if they hope to understand us any better, will at least be able to read something by Dave Eggers or the like.
What worries me is that the coming generation will not read any of it, because they are not interested, and will not leave anything of their own for posterity either.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981988</id>
	<title>Re:And this is how we die</title>
	<author>Tom</author>
	<datestamp>1265043180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Teaching is simply not a profession that attracts the best minds, for a mixture of reasons that mostly involve its relatively low status, relatively low pay, and poor working conditions (K-12 education is as much babysitting as teaching).</p></div><p>Which, incidentally, is the point where any serious effort to improve education has to begin. Everything else, whether it's called "no child left behind" or "fuck 'em all" will work without addressing the issue that to get good education, you need good people to do the educating.</p><p>And it was not too long ago that teachers were considered to be the elite, together with the doctors and the other distinguished men of their community. So what happened? More importantly - how can we fix it?</p><p>My personal guess (and I have a sister who's a teacher and a girlfriend that is becoming one) is the babysitting part took over. Teachers today don't teach, they are replacement parents, except that they have none of the authority or options of handling that parents do.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Teaching is simply not a profession that attracts the best minds , for a mixture of reasons that mostly involve its relatively low status , relatively low pay , and poor working conditions ( K-12 education is as much babysitting as teaching ) .Which , incidentally , is the point where any serious effort to improve education has to begin .
Everything else , whether it 's called " no child left behind " or " fuck 'em all " will work without addressing the issue that to get good education , you need good people to do the educating.And it was not too long ago that teachers were considered to be the elite , together with the doctors and the other distinguished men of their community .
So what happened ?
More importantly - how can we fix it ? My personal guess ( and I have a sister who 's a teacher and a girlfriend that is becoming one ) is the babysitting part took over .
Teachers today do n't teach , they are replacement parents , except that they have none of the authority or options of handling that parents do .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Teaching is simply not a profession that attracts the best minds, for a mixture of reasons that mostly involve its relatively low status, relatively low pay, and poor working conditions (K-12 education is as much babysitting as teaching).Which, incidentally, is the point where any serious effort to improve education has to begin.
Everything else, whether it's called "no child left behind" or "fuck 'em all" will work without addressing the issue that to get good education, you need good people to do the educating.And it was not too long ago that teachers were considered to be the elite, together with the doctors and the other distinguished men of their community.
So what happened?
More importantly - how can we fix it?My personal guess (and I have a sister who's a teacher and a girlfriend that is becoming one) is the babysitting part took over.
Teachers today don't teach, they are replacement parents, except that they have none of the authority or options of handling that parents do.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980148</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980546</id>
	<title>Good.</title>
	<author>PinchDuck</author>
	<datestamp>1265037120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That means the system is working. Re-take the classes until you learn to communicate properly.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That means the system is working .
Re-take the classes until you learn to communicate properly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That means the system is working.
Re-take the classes until you learn to communicate properly.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30989380</id>
	<title>Re:Universities can't keep up</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265028660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Of course we know what 'cuz' means. I mean, it's obvious<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... right, cuz?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Of course we know what 'cuz ' means .
I mean , it 's obvious ... right , cuz ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Of course we know what 'cuz' means.
I mean, it's obvious ... right, cuz?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980196</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982726</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265046060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The next time the parent will write the paper himself.</p><p>A good grade will probably be obtained.</p><p>I know this because my wife and I have 'edited' a few of our kids term papers.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-(</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The next time the parent will write the paper himself.A good grade will probably be obtained.I know this because my wife and I have 'edited ' a few of our kids term papers .
: - (</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The next time the parent will write the paper himself.A good grade will probably be obtained.I know this because my wife and I have 'edited' a few of our kids term papers.
:-(</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980576</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983266</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>blackraven14250</author>
	<datestamp>1265048160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>If you had a perfect photographic memory, you would breeze through most any modern school curriculum.  That doesn't mean you'd actually understand what you have memorized or be able to adapt that knowledge to different situations.</p></div><p>As a person with a very good (albeit not perfect) photographic memory, I'm going to let you in on the workings of the process a bit. If you have a memory of that caliber, you're very likely to remember a large portion what the idiots around you say and do, which lends itself very well to the processing necessary to avoid those mistakes. When you have a memory of that quality, all it takes is to think to yourself "that was dumb" as you see what happened, so that if and when you end up in that situation, it's not very hard to do something different.</p><p>Photographic memory is made out to be just an insanely good memory by sight, while in reality, it is not quite so simple. All it takes for a person with this kind of memory is to remember the "picture", as this is their strongest memory, and the easiest to recall vividly. At that point, the flood gates are opened to allow anything else (in terms of fine-grained details) you remember from the event, or even related events. When I say flood gates, I mean it as a near-perfect metaphor. I don't quite know exactly what will come through them, but I know it'll be a lot of random things surrounding the event in question. I find no control over what memories pop up, other than to pull up other objects/images I know were involved, and hope that what comes through the flood gates is the right stuff.</p><p>One point about photographic memory that you don't quite seem to understand involves anything written. To be quite frank, photographic memory doesn't work for text. At the point you're reading a textbook, or looking at a formula on a whiteboard, other sections of memory take over the process of remembering what is on the page. I seriously have nearly no recollections of what exactly was on specific pages in any book I've ever read. I have a collection of words and pictures floating around that I can access, and if I grab an image, let's say, a diagram of the nitrogen cycle from my old biology textbook, it'll bring up the details of the cycle with it. This is just something to consider when a student near you, using an older textbook that doesn't have a picture on every page, seems to be looking around the room constantly, like they may have ADD or something. They may just be looking for something to link with what they've just read, regardless as to how unrelated what they find may be. Text without an image, to someone with a photographic memory, is nearly worthless because of the additional difficulty then presented in recalling said information at a later date.</p><p>Thus, the problem in this case is truly no longer the student's. It becomes the teacher's problem, for not catering to the learning styles of all of the students. You can also argue it becomes the school's problem, for not arranging kids into classrooms by learning style, so the teachers know exactly how to teach to get the information across to every student in the classroom. You can also argue that the school should be providing different textbooks to different classrooms to help accommodate the different styles of learning. This way, the teachers don't have to deal with vastly different styles of learning, which makes it much easier for them to present information quickly in a format that makes it easiest for the classroom to learn.</p><p>If you cannot recall information because of various failures in the educational system, you will not be able to use that information. I concede the point that many people don't like to use information they obviously know, and that the uses of the information should be taught in schools, but we currently have a system that doesn't educate everyone at their strong suit, which lends a disadvantage in recollection. As recollection is the basis of implementation, this aspect of the educational system needs to be fixed first.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you had a perfect photographic memory , you would breeze through most any modern school curriculum .
That does n't mean you 'd actually understand what you have memorized or be able to adapt that knowledge to different situations.As a person with a very good ( albeit not perfect ) photographic memory , I 'm going to let you in on the workings of the process a bit .
If you have a memory of that caliber , you 're very likely to remember a large portion what the idiots around you say and do , which lends itself very well to the processing necessary to avoid those mistakes .
When you have a memory of that quality , all it takes is to think to yourself " that was dumb " as you see what happened , so that if and when you end up in that situation , it 's not very hard to do something different.Photographic memory is made out to be just an insanely good memory by sight , while in reality , it is not quite so simple .
All it takes for a person with this kind of memory is to remember the " picture " , as this is their strongest memory , and the easiest to recall vividly .
At that point , the flood gates are opened to allow anything else ( in terms of fine-grained details ) you remember from the event , or even related events .
When I say flood gates , I mean it as a near-perfect metaphor .
I do n't quite know exactly what will come through them , but I know it 'll be a lot of random things surrounding the event in question .
I find no control over what memories pop up , other than to pull up other objects/images I know were involved , and hope that what comes through the flood gates is the right stuff.One point about photographic memory that you do n't quite seem to understand involves anything written .
To be quite frank , photographic memory does n't work for text .
At the point you 're reading a textbook , or looking at a formula on a whiteboard , other sections of memory take over the process of remembering what is on the page .
I seriously have nearly no recollections of what exactly was on specific pages in any book I 've ever read .
I have a collection of words and pictures floating around that I can access , and if I grab an image , let 's say , a diagram of the nitrogen cycle from my old biology textbook , it 'll bring up the details of the cycle with it .
This is just something to consider when a student near you , using an older textbook that does n't have a picture on every page , seems to be looking around the room constantly , like they may have ADD or something .
They may just be looking for something to link with what they 've just read , regardless as to how unrelated what they find may be .
Text without an image , to someone with a photographic memory , is nearly worthless because of the additional difficulty then presented in recalling said information at a later date.Thus , the problem in this case is truly no longer the student 's .
It becomes the teacher 's problem , for not catering to the learning styles of all of the students .
You can also argue it becomes the school 's problem , for not arranging kids into classrooms by learning style , so the teachers know exactly how to teach to get the information across to every student in the classroom .
You can also argue that the school should be providing different textbooks to different classrooms to help accommodate the different styles of learning .
This way , the teachers do n't have to deal with vastly different styles of learning , which makes it much easier for them to present information quickly in a format that makes it easiest for the classroom to learn.If you can not recall information because of various failures in the educational system , you will not be able to use that information .
I concede the point that many people do n't like to use information they obviously know , and that the uses of the information should be taught in schools , but we currently have a system that does n't educate everyone at their strong suit , which lends a disadvantage in recollection .
As recollection is the basis of implementation , this aspect of the educational system needs to be fixed first .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you had a perfect photographic memory, you would breeze through most any modern school curriculum.
That doesn't mean you'd actually understand what you have memorized or be able to adapt that knowledge to different situations.As a person with a very good (albeit not perfect) photographic memory, I'm going to let you in on the workings of the process a bit.
If you have a memory of that caliber, you're very likely to remember a large portion what the idiots around you say and do, which lends itself very well to the processing necessary to avoid those mistakes.
When you have a memory of that quality, all it takes is to think to yourself "that was dumb" as you see what happened, so that if and when you end up in that situation, it's not very hard to do something different.Photographic memory is made out to be just an insanely good memory by sight, while in reality, it is not quite so simple.
All it takes for a person with this kind of memory is to remember the "picture", as this is their strongest memory, and the easiest to recall vividly.
At that point, the flood gates are opened to allow anything else (in terms of fine-grained details) you remember from the event, or even related events.
When I say flood gates, I mean it as a near-perfect metaphor.
I don't quite know exactly what will come through them, but I know it'll be a lot of random things surrounding the event in question.
I find no control over what memories pop up, other than to pull up other objects/images I know were involved, and hope that what comes through the flood gates is the right stuff.One point about photographic memory that you don't quite seem to understand involves anything written.
To be quite frank, photographic memory doesn't work for text.
At the point you're reading a textbook, or looking at a formula on a whiteboard, other sections of memory take over the process of remembering what is on the page.
I seriously have nearly no recollections of what exactly was on specific pages in any book I've ever read.
I have a collection of words and pictures floating around that I can access, and if I grab an image, let's say, a diagram of the nitrogen cycle from my old biology textbook, it'll bring up the details of the cycle with it.
This is just something to consider when a student near you, using an older textbook that doesn't have a picture on every page, seems to be looking around the room constantly, like they may have ADD or something.
They may just be looking for something to link with what they've just read, regardless as to how unrelated what they find may be.
Text without an image, to someone with a photographic memory, is nearly worthless because of the additional difficulty then presented in recalling said information at a later date.Thus, the problem in this case is truly no longer the student's.
It becomes the teacher's problem, for not catering to the learning styles of all of the students.
You can also argue it becomes the school's problem, for not arranging kids into classrooms by learning style, so the teachers know exactly how to teach to get the information across to every student in the classroom.
You can also argue that the school should be providing different textbooks to different classrooms to help accommodate the different styles of learning.
This way, the teachers don't have to deal with vastly different styles of learning, which makes it much easier for them to present information quickly in a format that makes it easiest for the classroom to learn.If you cannot recall information because of various failures in the educational system, you will not be able to use that information.
I concede the point that many people don't like to use information they obviously know, and that the uses of the information should be taught in schools, but we currently have a system that doesn't educate everyone at their strong suit, which lends a disadvantage in recollection.
As recollection is the basis of implementation, this aspect of the educational system needs to be fixed first.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980606</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981194</id>
	<title>Re:Eats, Shoots, and Leaves</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265040120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I've actually noticed myself becoming extremely careful about punctuation.  If you get your punctuation wrong when programming, all sorts of bad things happen.  English is just a natural extension of this.</p></div><p>Programming preceded English??????????</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've actually noticed myself becoming extremely careful about punctuation .
If you get your punctuation wrong when programming , all sorts of bad things happen .
English is just a natural extension of this.Programming preceded English ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've actually noticed myself becoming extremely careful about punctuation.
If you get your punctuation wrong when programming, all sorts of bad things happen.
English is just a natural extension of this.Programming preceded English?????????
?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979936</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30985438</id>
	<title>Re:A few thoughts from a professional English teac</title>
	<author>JumpDrive</author>
	<datestamp>1265057100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Ahh, could you give those of us who are concerned about our grammatical capabilities some information on ways to improve?  Such as books or tutorials.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Ahh , could you give those of us who are concerned about our grammatical capabilities some information on ways to improve ?
Such as books or tutorials .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ahh, could you give those of us who are concerned about our grammatical capabilities some information on ways to improve?
Such as books or tutorials.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981646</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981064</id>
	<title>Who cares</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265039580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you can communicate, what is the difference?  Yes I know the grammar nazi people claim it disrupts the flow and they get totally confused when a person writes its instead of it's but the other 99\% of the population can breeze right by that minor error without even noticing.  If I can meet you on the street and say "it's cold out" and you fully understand and compreend my statement, how do you get so confused and disrupted if I write "its cold out"?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you can communicate , what is the difference ?
Yes I know the grammar nazi people claim it disrupts the flow and they get totally confused when a person writes its instead of it 's but the other 99 \ % of the population can breeze right by that minor error without even noticing .
If I can meet you on the street and say " it 's cold out " and you fully understand and compreend my statement , how do you get so confused and disrupted if I write " its cold out " ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you can communicate, what is the difference?
Yes I know the grammar nazi people claim it disrupts the flow and they get totally confused when a person writes its instead of it's but the other 99\% of the population can breeze right by that minor error without even noticing.
If I can meet you on the street and say "it's cold out" and you fully understand and compreend my statement, how do you get so confused and disrupted if I write "its cold out"?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30986934</id>
	<title>Ontario...no surprise.</title>
	<author>Mashiki</author>
	<datestamp>1265018820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm part of the generation in Ontario that went from localized teaching to province forced curriculum, with yearly revisions for roughly 8 years.  This was back in the late 80's and 90's.  The same generation that now has kids, or in some cases are going back through for college/university now because of the current economic situation.  The system change was a mess, odd as it seems I still have no real concept of proper punctuation, grammar, or anything like it.  I know I'm better after a 3mo course, but it's still pretty bad.  There's an entire generation of us who had schooling like this:  "Gr3/4/5, grammar/spelling/etc" Either you got it or you didn't, and it reached higher up towards middle school.  Following years, you were expected to know it once the new system came in, there was no backtracking, no extra help.</p><p>I had plenty of people in my class who struggled with the entire grammar/punctuation bit.  I know that these days they're a lot softer on the whole teaching thing, but here in Ontario where this is from the current education system is a joke.  On top of that, I can't see a point in knowing 'why' you need it.  When the article says there were no grammar lessons in high school they're right.  I think we had 1 day per year in grades 3-7.</p><p>Blaming it on twitter and such?  Nah.  This has been going on for years, the programs here simply fail at what they are meant to do and the ministry of education(Ontario) is out of touch.  One reason why there's been such a large upswing in homeschooling and private schooling here.  About half the kids on my street are home schooled, another third are in private the rest are in public.  And the ones who are in public get extra lessons from the parents who home school.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm part of the generation in Ontario that went from localized teaching to province forced curriculum , with yearly revisions for roughly 8 years .
This was back in the late 80 's and 90 's .
The same generation that now has kids , or in some cases are going back through for college/university now because of the current economic situation .
The system change was a mess , odd as it seems I still have no real concept of proper punctuation , grammar , or anything like it .
I know I 'm better after a 3mo course , but it 's still pretty bad .
There 's an entire generation of us who had schooling like this : " Gr3/4/5 , grammar/spelling/etc " Either you got it or you did n't , and it reached higher up towards middle school .
Following years , you were expected to know it once the new system came in , there was no backtracking , no extra help.I had plenty of people in my class who struggled with the entire grammar/punctuation bit .
I know that these days they 're a lot softer on the whole teaching thing , but here in Ontario where this is from the current education system is a joke .
On top of that , I ca n't see a point in knowing 'why ' you need it .
When the article says there were no grammar lessons in high school they 're right .
I think we had 1 day per year in grades 3-7.Blaming it on twitter and such ?
Nah. This has been going on for years , the programs here simply fail at what they are meant to do and the ministry of education ( Ontario ) is out of touch .
One reason why there 's been such a large upswing in homeschooling and private schooling here .
About half the kids on my street are home schooled , another third are in private the rest are in public .
And the ones who are in public get extra lessons from the parents who home school .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm part of the generation in Ontario that went from localized teaching to province forced curriculum, with yearly revisions for roughly 8 years.
This was back in the late 80's and 90's.
The same generation that now has kids, or in some cases are going back through for college/university now because of the current economic situation.
The system change was a mess, odd as it seems I still have no real concept of proper punctuation, grammar, or anything like it.
I know I'm better after a 3mo course, but it's still pretty bad.
There's an entire generation of us who had schooling like this:  "Gr3/4/5, grammar/spelling/etc" Either you got it or you didn't, and it reached higher up towards middle school.
Following years, you were expected to know it once the new system came in, there was no backtracking, no extra help.I had plenty of people in my class who struggled with the entire grammar/punctuation bit.
I know that these days they're a lot softer on the whole teaching thing, but here in Ontario where this is from the current education system is a joke.
On top of that, I can't see a point in knowing 'why' you need it.
When the article says there were no grammar lessons in high school they're right.
I think we had 1 day per year in grades 3-7.Blaming it on twitter and such?
Nah.  This has been going on for years, the programs here simply fail at what they are meant to do and the ministry of education(Ontario) is out of touch.
One reason why there's been such a large upswing in homeschooling and private schooling here.
About half the kids on my street are home schooled, another third are in private the rest are in public.
And the ones who are in public get extra lessons from the parents who home school.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980358</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe its the school thats failing</title>
	<author>Spazholio</author>
	<datestamp>1265036400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>No.</htmltext>
<tokenext>No .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980058</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980750</id>
	<title>UW?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265038080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm assuming by Waterloo University the author means the University of Waterloo in Waterloo, Ontario, Canada. If this is the case, the reason for the poor performance is likely the large number of ELS (English as a second language) students. We have a large number of International students; however, I personally know of a few English-speaking Arts majors who also failed the ELPE (English language proficiency exam).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm assuming by Waterloo University the author means the University of Waterloo in Waterloo , Ontario , Canada .
If this is the case , the reason for the poor performance is likely the large number of ELS ( English as a second language ) students .
We have a large number of International students ; however , I personally know of a few English-speaking Arts majors who also failed the ELPE ( English language proficiency exam ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm assuming by Waterloo University the author means the University of Waterloo in Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
If this is the case, the reason for the poor performance is likely the large number of ELS (English as a second language) students.
We have a large number of International students; however, I personally know of a few English-speaking Arts majors who also failed the ELPE (English language proficiency exam).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982794</id>
	<title>Re:Eats, Shoots, and Leaves</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265046300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That is a great book! I love the history of each punctuation mark. I made a similar joke (about how one comma can change the meaning of a sentence) just last week on Facebook. A friend of mine, McKenzie, posted this on her cousin Lauren's wall:</p><p>
&nbsp; &nbsp; "How are you my cousin?"</p><p>I replied to the post, explaining that McKenzie's father was a brother to Terri, who is Lauren's mom, and that children of siblings are cousins. Then of course I had to follow up a a few messages later with, "Oh, NOW I see -- you meant 'How are you, my cousin?'"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That is a great book !
I love the history of each punctuation mark .
I made a similar joke ( about how one comma can change the meaning of a sentence ) just last week on Facebook .
A friend of mine , McKenzie , posted this on her cousin Lauren 's wall :     " How are you my cousin ?
" I replied to the post , explaining that McKenzie 's father was a brother to Terri , who is Lauren 's mom , and that children of siblings are cousins .
Then of course I had to follow up a a few messages later with , " Oh , NOW I see -- you meant 'How are you , my cousin ?
' "</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That is a great book!
I love the history of each punctuation mark.
I made a similar joke (about how one comma can change the meaning of a sentence) just last week on Facebook.
A friend of mine, McKenzie, posted this on her cousin Lauren's wall:
    "How are you my cousin?
"I replied to the post, explaining that McKenzie's father was a brother to Terri, who is Lauren's mom, and that children of siblings are cousins.
Then of course I had to follow up a a few messages later with, "Oh, NOW I see -- you meant 'How are you, my cousin?
'"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979936</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983612</id>
	<title>English is not a dead language.</title>
	<author>Surt</author>
	<datestamp>1265049660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It is an evolving, living communications medium.  If the English manuals can't keep up, that's not on teens and tweeners, that's on the manual manufacturers.  Just another dying industry like the cd-pressing industry.  Get used to seeing a lot of<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-) in your world, or be prepared to cope with a<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-P</p><p>Now get off my lawn you kids!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is an evolving , living communications medium .
If the English manuals ca n't keep up , that 's not on teens and tweeners , that 's on the manual manufacturers .
Just another dying industry like the cd-pressing industry .
Get used to seeing a lot of : - ) in your world , or be prepared to cope with a : -PNow get off my lawn you kids !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is an evolving, living communications medium.
If the English manuals can't keep up, that's not on teens and tweeners, that's on the manual manufacturers.
Just another dying industry like the cd-pressing industry.
Get used to seeing a lot of :-) in your world, or be prepared to cope with a :-PNow get off my lawn you kids!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30986592</id>
	<title>Blame work</title>
	<author>Riskable</author>
	<datestamp>1265017620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I believe the cultural factor behind the work-averse attitude of today's youngsters lies directly with the fact that <b>schoolwork is much harder and time consuming than Real Work.</b>  At least, that's been my experience.  My job involves sitting in front of a computer--at home no less--for a <i>mere</i> 8 hours every day.  I don't have to get dressed up, I don't have to do any homework, and my knowledge of trivia (specifics of certain time periods in history, English literature, rarely-useful-in-the-real-world mathematical formulas, etc) is never a factor.  Not only that but my career advancement doesn't rely on passing a barrage of broad-spectrum tests on a quarterly or yearly basis.</p><p>Even if I worked in an office with a dress code the results would be similar:  From the perspective of a child, Real Work doesn't appear to require much effort at all.  In fact, just being <i>present</i> seems to be enough to get paid (and in some places I've worke I must concede that actually *is* all that's required for many positions).</p><p>If "kids these days" are hard to get motivated for absorbing trivia and performing rote tasks we have only ourselves to blame.  I've said it before and I'll say it again:  One has only to point a finger at the preceding generation to discover who is to blame for "kids these days."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I believe the cultural factor behind the work-averse attitude of today 's youngsters lies directly with the fact that schoolwork is much harder and time consuming than Real Work .
At least , that 's been my experience .
My job involves sitting in front of a computer--at home no less--for a mere 8 hours every day .
I do n't have to get dressed up , I do n't have to do any homework , and my knowledge of trivia ( specifics of certain time periods in history , English literature , rarely-useful-in-the-real-world mathematical formulas , etc ) is never a factor .
Not only that but my career advancement does n't rely on passing a barrage of broad-spectrum tests on a quarterly or yearly basis.Even if I worked in an office with a dress code the results would be similar : From the perspective of a child , Real Work does n't appear to require much effort at all .
In fact , just being present seems to be enough to get paid ( and in some places I 've worke I must concede that actually * is * all that 's required for many positions ) .If " kids these days " are hard to get motivated for absorbing trivia and performing rote tasks we have only ourselves to blame .
I 've said it before and I 'll say it again : One has only to point a finger at the preceding generation to discover who is to blame for " kids these days .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I believe the cultural factor behind the work-averse attitude of today's youngsters lies directly with the fact that schoolwork is much harder and time consuming than Real Work.
At least, that's been my experience.
My job involves sitting in front of a computer--at home no less--for a mere 8 hours every day.
I don't have to get dressed up, I don't have to do any homework, and my knowledge of trivia (specifics of certain time periods in history, English literature, rarely-useful-in-the-real-world mathematical formulas, etc) is never a factor.
Not only that but my career advancement doesn't rely on passing a barrage of broad-spectrum tests on a quarterly or yearly basis.Even if I worked in an office with a dress code the results would be similar:  From the perspective of a child, Real Work doesn't appear to require much effort at all.
In fact, just being present seems to be enough to get paid (and in some places I've worke I must concede that actually *is* all that's required for many positions).If "kids these days" are hard to get motivated for absorbing trivia and performing rote tasks we have only ourselves to blame.
I've said it before and I'll say it again:  One has only to point a finger at the preceding generation to discover who is to blame for "kids these days.
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981088</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980536</id>
	<title>It's the University of Waterloo</title>
	<author>talexb</author>
	<datestamp>1265037120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Dudes, get it right. This is an edit #fail.</p><p>It's the University of Waterloo, not Waterloo University, just like it's University of Notre Dame, not the other way around. The top Google search comes up with the correct name. Although, given the topic, feel free to mod this #ironic.</p><p>Alex<br>Yep, a UW grad.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Dudes , get it right .
This is an edit # fail.It 's the University of Waterloo , not Waterloo University , just like it 's University of Notre Dame , not the other way around .
The top Google search comes up with the correct name .
Although , given the topic , feel free to mod this # ironic.AlexYep , a UW grad .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Dudes, get it right.
This is an edit #fail.It's the University of Waterloo, not Waterloo University, just like it's University of Notre Dame, not the other way around.
The top Google search comes up with the correct name.
Although, given the topic, feel free to mod this #ironic.AlexYep, a UW grad.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982588</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>digitalsolo</author>
	<datestamp>1265045460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>People shouldn't be taught the test answers, they should be taught the basics in the subject and how to learn.</p></div><p>
This is exceedingly true in all manners of life.
<br>
<br>
I have implored management at my company more than once to hire people with less knowledge on the given subject and more ability to learn.    Someone with knowledge and no intelligence is worthless at troubleshooting a problem.   It's astounding to me how few people grasp this concept.   Having knowledge is near worthless, knowing how to apply knowledge is the key.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>People should n't be taught the test answers , they should be taught the basics in the subject and how to learn .
This is exceedingly true in all manners of life .
I have implored management at my company more than once to hire people with less knowledge on the given subject and more ability to learn .
Someone with knowledge and no intelligence is worthless at troubleshooting a problem .
It 's astounding to me how few people grasp this concept .
Having knowledge is near worthless , knowing how to apply knowledge is the key .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>People shouldn't be taught the test answers, they should be taught the basics in the subject and how to learn.
This is exceedingly true in all manners of life.
I have implored management at my company more than once to hire people with less knowledge on the given subject and more ability to learn.
Someone with knowledge and no intelligence is worthless at troubleshooting a problem.
It's astounding to me how few people grasp this concept.
Having knowledge is near worthless, knowing how to apply knowledge is the key.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981208</id>
	<title>How the hell...</title>
	<author>No Grand Plan</author>
	<datestamp>1265040180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>...is it all right for a professor to criticise (shut up) the standard of students' grammar and spelling, and use 'sort of like' in a sentence?</htmltext>
<tokenext>...is it all right for a professor to criticise ( shut up ) the standard of students ' grammar and spelling , and use 'sort of like ' in a sentence ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...is it all right for a professor to criticise (shut up) the standard of students' grammar and spelling, and use 'sort of like' in a sentence?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30989464</id>
	<title>Re:Think Punctuation is unimportant? Answer this:</title>
	<author>Myopic</author>
	<datestamp>1265029140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's awesome! I love it, it's a great example. I want to give it a try. I show two very different results, but I think many more are possible. Where did you get that?</p><p><i>Dear John<br>I want a man who knows what love is all about. You are generous, kind, thoughtful; people, who are not like you, admit to being useless and inferior. You have ruined me for other men; I yearn for you. I have no feelings whatsoever when we&rsquo;re apart. I can be forever happy. Will you let me be yours?<br>Gloria</i></p><p><i>Dear John<br>I want a man! Who knows what love is all about? You? Are generous, kind, thoughtful people, who are not like you admit to being, useless and inferior? You have ruined me! For other men I yearn; for you I have no feelings whatsoever. When we&rsquo;re apart, I can be forever happy. Will you let me be?<br>Yours,<br>Gloria</i></p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's awesome !
I love it , it 's a great example .
I want to give it a try .
I show two very different results , but I think many more are possible .
Where did you get that ? Dear JohnI want a man who knows what love is all about .
You are generous , kind , thoughtful ; people , who are not like you , admit to being useless and inferior .
You have ruined me for other men ; I yearn for you .
I have no feelings whatsoever when we    re apart .
I can be forever happy .
Will you let me be yours ? GloriaDear JohnI want a man !
Who knows what love is all about ?
You ? Are generous , kind , thoughtful people , who are not like you admit to being , useless and inferior ?
You have ruined me !
For other men I yearn ; for you I have no feelings whatsoever .
When we    re apart , I can be forever happy .
Will you let me be ? Yours,Gloria</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's awesome!
I love it, it's a great example.
I want to give it a try.
I show two very different results, but I think many more are possible.
Where did you get that?Dear JohnI want a man who knows what love is all about.
You are generous, kind, thoughtful; people, who are not like you, admit to being useless and inferior.
You have ruined me for other men; I yearn for you.
I have no feelings whatsoever when we’re apart.
I can be forever happy.
Will you let me be yours?GloriaDear JohnI want a man!
Who knows what love is all about?
You? Are generous, kind, thoughtful people, who are not like you admit to being, useless and inferior?
You have ruined me!
For other men I yearn; for you I have no feelings whatsoever.
When we’re apart, I can be forever happy.
Will you let me be?Yours,Gloria</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982746</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984388</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265052840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I once encountered some Canadian girls telling me that the second person plural 'you' is 'you guys'. Seriously.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I once encountered some Canadian girls telling me that the second person plural 'you ' is 'you guys' .
Seriously .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I once encountered some Canadian girls telling me that the second person plural 'you' is 'you guys'.
Seriously.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980048</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982110</id>
	<title>Re:Spell Checking</title>
	<author>skorch</author>
	<datestamp>1265043660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I doubt it, otherwise he should have said so. If the whole point of this whole language debate is that formal language is useful precisely because it can minimize ambiguity by using very precise terms and grammar, then the very least he should do is distinguish between his impression that spelling skills are improving vs. the observation that spell-checking allows for fewer spelling mistakes without actually improving spelling or grammatical skills.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I doubt it , otherwise he should have said so .
If the whole point of this whole language debate is that formal language is useful precisely because it can minimize ambiguity by using very precise terms and grammar , then the very least he should do is distinguish between his impression that spelling skills are improving vs. the observation that spell-checking allows for fewer spelling mistakes without actually improving spelling or grammatical skills .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I doubt it, otherwise he should have said so.
If the whole point of this whole language debate is that formal language is useful precisely because it can minimize ambiguity by using very precise terms and grammar, then the very least he should do is distinguish between his impression that spelling skills are improving vs. the observation that spell-checking allows for fewer spelling mistakes without actually improving spelling or grammatical skills.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980082</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983010</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>shutdown -p now</author>
	<datestamp>1265047140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> <b>Your</b> being sarcastic?</p></div><p>Fixed that for you. ~</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Your being sarcastic ? Fixed that for you .
~</tokentext>
<sentencetext> Your being sarcastic?Fixed that for you.
~
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981610</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984452</id>
	<title>Re:Color me surprised</title>
	<author>budcub</author>
	<datestamp>1265053140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Phonics is one of those things that goes into and out of favor over the years.  Growing up in the 1970's we learned phonics.  From what I've heard it fell out of fashion, maybe sometime in the 1980's?  Then parents were upset their children weren't learning reading and grammar as they felt they should, so we got hooked on phonics and it came back into fashion again.  Now it looks like people are becoming critical of it again.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Phonics is one of those things that goes into and out of favor over the years .
Growing up in the 1970 's we learned phonics .
From what I 've heard it fell out of fashion , maybe sometime in the 1980 's ?
Then parents were upset their children were n't learning reading and grammar as they felt they should , so we got hooked on phonics and it came back into fashion again .
Now it looks like people are becoming critical of it again .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Phonics is one of those things that goes into and out of favor over the years.
Growing up in the 1970's we learned phonics.
From what I've heard it fell out of fashion, maybe sometime in the 1980's?
Then parents were upset their children weren't learning reading and grammar as they felt they should, so we got hooked on phonics and it came back into fashion again.
Now it looks like people are becoming critical of it again.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981970</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980324</id>
	<title>Re:Eats, Shoots, and Leaves</title>
	<author>Jah-Wren Ryel</author>
	<datestamp>1265036280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>If you get your punctuation wrong when programming, all sorts of bad things happen. English is just a natural extension of this.</p></div><p>No it is not.  English -- and just about every other natural language -- has lots of redundancy in the form of context that programming languages generally lack (and compilers/interpreters hardly ever make use of even when it is there).  It really is the extremely rare case where bad punctuation will cause a significant number of humans to take away an unintended meaning.</p><p>If anything, the panda example demonstrates the silliness of adhering to a literal interpretation in the face of context that indicates otherwise.</p><p>That's not to say that using scrupulously correct punctuation is pointless or a bad thing - I'm just disagreeing with the idea that humans parsing English are even remotely like a compiler parsing a programming language.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you get your punctuation wrong when programming , all sorts of bad things happen .
English is just a natural extension of this.No it is not .
English -- and just about every other natural language -- has lots of redundancy in the form of context that programming languages generally lack ( and compilers/interpreters hardly ever make use of even when it is there ) .
It really is the extremely rare case where bad punctuation will cause a significant number of humans to take away an unintended meaning.If anything , the panda example demonstrates the silliness of adhering to a literal interpretation in the face of context that indicates otherwise.That 's not to say that using scrupulously correct punctuation is pointless or a bad thing - I 'm just disagreeing with the idea that humans parsing English are even remotely like a compiler parsing a programming language .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you get your punctuation wrong when programming, all sorts of bad things happen.
English is just a natural extension of this.No it is not.
English -- and just about every other natural language -- has lots of redundancy in the form of context that programming languages generally lack (and compilers/interpreters hardly ever make use of even when it is there).
It really is the extremely rare case where bad punctuation will cause a significant number of humans to take away an unintended meaning.If anything, the panda example demonstrates the silliness of adhering to a literal interpretation in the face of context that indicates otherwise.That's not to say that using scrupulously correct punctuation is pointless or a bad thing - I'm just disagreeing with the idea that humans parsing English are even remotely like a compiler parsing a programming language.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979936</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980716</id>
	<title>Re:Just out of curiousity...</title>
	<author>Tordre</author>
	<datestamp>1265038020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Little know fact it is the 'eh' can be a greeting,an interjection and a punctuation.<br>In the case you described that ? is actually redundant because at the end of a sentence the 'eh' has the meaning of a question mark, so by saying eh?, you are really saying 'eh eh' or as you Americans put it '??'<br>for example:<br>"You going to Timmy's eh." is a valid question expressing a desire for coffee and/or donuts.</p><p>in the case of it appearing at the beginning of a sentence it can take the form of a standard greeting, an interjection, and a question mark.<br>for example:<br>"Eh by" is a common greeting particularly in the eastern of Canada.<br>"Eh by where going up to the gravel pit for two four." Is a question in this case the eh expresses a common goal and suggests assistance to said goal. The goal in this example is getting drunk on may two four.<br>"Eh! get your hand of my donut." Is an example of it as an interjection, directly to the person who is eating my damn donut.</p><p>Well I hope this clears up some subtle nuances of the mysterious nature of this word. tune in next time when we discuss the nature of two-four, and what is truly means to some Canadians.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Little know fact it is the 'eh ' can be a greeting,an interjection and a punctuation.In the case you described that ?
is actually redundant because at the end of a sentence the 'eh ' has the meaning of a question mark , so by saying eh ? , you are really saying 'eh eh ' or as you Americans put it ' ? ?
'for example : " You going to Timmy 's eh .
" is a valid question expressing a desire for coffee and/or donuts.in the case of it appearing at the beginning of a sentence it can take the form of a standard greeting , an interjection , and a question mark.for example : " Eh by " is a common greeting particularly in the eastern of Canada .
" Eh by where going up to the gravel pit for two four .
" Is a question in this case the eh expresses a common goal and suggests assistance to said goal .
The goal in this example is getting drunk on may two four. " Eh !
get your hand of my donut .
" Is an example of it as an interjection , directly to the person who is eating my damn donut.Well I hope this clears up some subtle nuances of the mysterious nature of this word .
tune in next time when we discuss the nature of two-four , and what is truly means to some Canadians .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Little know fact it is the 'eh' can be a greeting,an interjection and a punctuation.In the case you described that ?
is actually redundant because at the end of a sentence the 'eh' has the meaning of a question mark, so by saying eh?, you are really saying 'eh eh' or as you Americans put it '??
'for example:"You going to Timmy's eh.
" is a valid question expressing a desire for coffee and/or donuts.in the case of it appearing at the beginning of a sentence it can take the form of a standard greeting, an interjection, and a question mark.for example:"Eh by" is a common greeting particularly in the eastern of Canada.
"Eh by where going up to the gravel pit for two four.
" Is a question in this case the eh expresses a common goal and suggests assistance to said goal.
The goal in this example is getting drunk on may two four."Eh!
get your hand of my donut.
" Is an example of it as an interjection, directly to the person who is eating my damn donut.Well I hope this clears up some subtle nuances of the mysterious nature of this word.
tune in next time when we discuss the nature of two-four, and what is truly means to some Canadians.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979898</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982514</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>Goalie\_Ca</author>
	<datestamp>1265045220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>"Our students have no work ethic, and no desire to learn. "

"Presently, the majority of the students I am watching as I write this have elected not to open their book and participate."

Sorry, but you're not exactly hard at work yourself if you are reading slashdot on the job. Maybe you could stand up, walk around the class and kick them all in the ass if they aren't working. I TA a decently sized class and if I make sure they are on topic while working but if they finish they can leave early. They seem motivated and productive that way.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" Our students have no work ethic , and no desire to learn .
" " Presently , the majority of the students I am watching as I write this have elected not to open their book and participate .
" Sorry , but you 're not exactly hard at work yourself if you are reading slashdot on the job .
Maybe you could stand up , walk around the class and kick them all in the ass if they are n't working .
I TA a decently sized class and if I make sure they are on topic while working but if they finish they can leave early .
They seem motivated and productive that way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Our students have no work ethic, and no desire to learn.
"

"Presently, the majority of the students I am watching as I write this have elected not to open their book and participate.
"

Sorry, but you're not exactly hard at work yourself if you are reading slashdot on the job.
Maybe you could stand up, walk around the class and kick them all in the ass if they aren't working.
I TA a decently sized class and if I make sure they are on topic while working but if they finish they can leave early.
They seem motivated and productive that way.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981088</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982656</id>
	<title>Body is humor</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265045760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Nothing new under the grammar sun - I already knew I know your language better than you<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:p If only my own was that simple...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Nothing new under the grammar sun - I already knew I know your language better than you : p If only my own was that simple.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nothing new under the grammar sun - I already knew I know your language better than you :p If only my own was that simple...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982144</id>
	<title>Re:Eats, Shoots, and Leaves</title>
	<author>dunkelfalke</author>
	<datestamp>1265043840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>English is not the only language where such punctuation jokes are possible.<br>There is a very old Russian joke about the king who wrote an order which can be translated to English as "to execute you may not pardon him".<br>It can be read both as "to execute, you may not pardon him" or "to execute you may not, pardon him".</p><p>Word order in Russian is quite relaxed, so the sentence is much more ambiguous, than it is in English.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>English is not the only language where such punctuation jokes are possible.There is a very old Russian joke about the king who wrote an order which can be translated to English as " to execute you may not pardon him " .It can be read both as " to execute , you may not pardon him " or " to execute you may not , pardon him " .Word order in Russian is quite relaxed , so the sentence is much more ambiguous , than it is in English .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>English is not the only language where such punctuation jokes are possible.There is a very old Russian joke about the king who wrote an order which can be translated to English as "to execute you may not pardon him".It can be read both as "to execute, you may not pardon him" or "to execute you may not, pardon him".Word order in Russian is quite relaxed, so the sentence is much more ambiguous, than it is in English.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979936</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983044</id>
	<title>Not just english</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265047320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>We're talking about people who passed through basic education system here, and at least half of them also through higher studies.</p></div><p>The same is true for Dutch. Several leading universities (Leiden, Utrecht) have been forced to introduce a "dutch language test" for freshmen (sp?). Every student that passes the test gets an automatic pass for the Dutch course, for the other it is mandatory. Sadly, about 80\% fail the test -- we're talking university education here, so the top 1\% of the population!</p><p>There was a similar discovery a few years back: freshly-graduated teachers lacked in basic calculus skills such as being unable to calculate 4*5 by head. And those people were then entrusted with the task to educate the next generation<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:'(</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>We 're talking about people who passed through basic education system here , and at least half of them also through higher studies.The same is true for Dutch .
Several leading universities ( Leiden , Utrecht ) have been forced to introduce a " dutch language test " for freshmen ( sp ? ) .
Every student that passes the test gets an automatic pass for the Dutch course , for the other it is mandatory .
Sadly , about 80 \ % fail the test -- we 're talking university education here , so the top 1 \ % of the population ! There was a similar discovery a few years back : freshly-graduated teachers lacked in basic calculus skills such as being unable to calculate 4 * 5 by head .
And those people were then entrusted with the task to educate the next generation : ' (</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We're talking about people who passed through basic education system here, and at least half of them also through higher studies.The same is true for Dutch.
Several leading universities (Leiden, Utrecht) have been forced to introduce a "dutch language test" for freshmen (sp?).
Every student that passes the test gets an automatic pass for the Dutch course, for the other it is mandatory.
Sadly, about 80\% fail the test -- we're talking university education here, so the top 1\% of the population!There was a similar discovery a few years back: freshly-graduated teachers lacked in basic calculus skills such as being unable to calculate 4*5 by head.
And those people were then entrusted with the task to educate the next generation :'(
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980048</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984172</id>
	<title>Re:And this is how we die</title>
	<author>Locke2005</author>
	<datestamp>1265051820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>As I've said before, there are 3 major problems facing our public schools that private schools don't have: 1) Lack of adequate and predictable funding. They're stuffing up to 30 kids into a single classroom; what more proof do you need? 2) Since the current educational fad is to "mainstream" all students, it is far to difficult to remove students that are disrupting the education of other students from the classroom, and 3) It is far to difficult to get rid of teachers that the administration knows are doing a bad job.<br>Taxpayers are responsible for the first problem, egotistical and reactionary parents for the second, and the unions are really only responsible for the third problem. All three problems need to be fixed to achieve excellence in public education.</htmltext>
<tokenext>As I 've said before , there are 3 major problems facing our public schools that private schools do n't have : 1 ) Lack of adequate and predictable funding .
They 're stuffing up to 30 kids into a single classroom ; what more proof do you need ?
2 ) Since the current educational fad is to " mainstream " all students , it is far to difficult to remove students that are disrupting the education of other students from the classroom , and 3 ) It is far to difficult to get rid of teachers that the administration knows are doing a bad job.Taxpayers are responsible for the first problem , egotistical and reactionary parents for the second , and the unions are really only responsible for the third problem .
All three problems need to be fixed to achieve excellence in public education .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As I've said before, there are 3 major problems facing our public schools that private schools don't have: 1) Lack of adequate and predictable funding.
They're stuffing up to 30 kids into a single classroom; what more proof do you need?
2) Since the current educational fad is to "mainstream" all students, it is far to difficult to remove students that are disrupting the education of other students from the classroom, and 3) It is far to difficult to get rid of teachers that the administration knows are doing a bad job.Taxpayers are responsible for the first problem, egotistical and reactionary parents for the second, and the unions are really only responsible for the third problem.
All three problems need to be fixed to achieve excellence in public education.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980148</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30985140</id>
	<title>Re:hai</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265056020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Hai, I can haz degree?</p></div><p>shure, and after that, u can give me cheezeburger</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Hai , I can haz degree ? shure , and after that , u can give me cheezeburger</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hai, I can haz degree?shure, and after that, u can give me cheezeburger
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979990</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979898</id>
	<title>Just out of curiousity...</title>
	<author>Jane Q. Public</author>
	<datestamp>1265034240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>What part of speech is "eh?"</htmltext>
<tokenext>What part of speech is " eh ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What part of speech is "eh?
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980400</id>
	<title>Re:Eats, Shoots, and Leaves</title>
	<author>msclrhd</author>
	<datestamp>1265036520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>English (and other natural languages) are worse than programming languages in that there is a lot more freedom of interpretation (see <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural\_language\_processing" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural\_language\_processing</a> [wikipedia.org], specifically the "Concrete problems" section).</p><p>For example (from the wikipedia article), understanding "Time flies like an arrow" requires a lot of contextual knowledge. Also, check out <a href="http://www.gray-area.org/Research/Ambig/" title="gray-area.org">http://www.gray-area.org/Research/Ambig/</a> [gray-area.org].</p><p>Consider also:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; *  Chapter I is the chapter of the book I have read.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; *  Take the lead of this dance while I go and take the lead out of the box.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; *  I am going to read a book I have read long ago.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; *  While on an IV drip, I managed to read through Part IV of the play.</p><p>Language (especially English) is extremely complicated, especially when colloquialisms and slang are used.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>English ( and other natural languages ) are worse than programming languages in that there is a lot more freedom of interpretation ( see http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural \ _language \ _processing [ wikipedia.org ] , specifically the " Concrete problems " section ) .For example ( from the wikipedia article ) , understanding " Time flies like an arrow " requires a lot of contextual knowledge .
Also , check out http : //www.gray-area.org/Research/Ambig/ [ gray-area.org ] .Consider also :     * Chapter I is the chapter of the book I have read .
    * Take the lead of this dance while I go and take the lead out of the box .
    * I am going to read a book I have read long ago .
    * While on an IV drip , I managed to read through Part IV of the play.Language ( especially English ) is extremely complicated , especially when colloquialisms and slang are used .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>English (and other natural languages) are worse than programming languages in that there is a lot more freedom of interpretation (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural\_language\_processing [wikipedia.org], specifically the "Concrete problems" section).For example (from the wikipedia article), understanding "Time flies like an arrow" requires a lot of contextual knowledge.
Also, check out http://www.gray-area.org/Research/Ambig/ [gray-area.org].Consider also:
    *  Chapter I is the chapter of the book I have read.
    *  Take the lead of this dance while I go and take the lead out of the box.
    *  I am going to read a book I have read long ago.
    *  While on an IV drip, I managed to read through Part IV of the play.Language (especially English) is extremely complicated, especially when colloquialisms and slang are used.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979936</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980038</id>
	<title>Nothing new</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265034900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Seriously, this isn't anything new. I'm a grad myself and yes every year lots of people fail that test. And they have every reason to.</p><p>So it must be hard right? No, it isn't. I passed and my grammer is what Charles Barkley would say is 'turrible'</p><p>But this is why most students fail.</p><p>1) A ton of international students because of the technical programs. In computer science and engineering, you are likely: Chinese, Indian or Russian. Many do not have english as a first language.<br>2) The education system in Ontario (the province Waterloo resides in) doesn't teach grammer. I don't recall ever doing any sort of grammer drills in elementary school. Grammer is a set of rules, if you don't know them, then you can't apply them</p><p>Elementary school needs to get back to teaching grammer in the form of drills. The teachers themselves need to polish up on their practices as well and deduct more marks on grammer. The more students grades drop as a result of careless grammer, the more they will pay attention and improve. And if they fail? Great! their skills need refinement.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Seriously , this is n't anything new .
I 'm a grad myself and yes every year lots of people fail that test .
And they have every reason to.So it must be hard right ?
No , it is n't .
I passed and my grammer is what Charles Barkley would say is 'turrible'But this is why most students fail.1 ) A ton of international students because of the technical programs .
In computer science and engineering , you are likely : Chinese , Indian or Russian .
Many do not have english as a first language.2 ) The education system in Ontario ( the province Waterloo resides in ) does n't teach grammer .
I do n't recall ever doing any sort of grammer drills in elementary school .
Grammer is a set of rules , if you do n't know them , then you ca n't apply themElementary school needs to get back to teaching grammer in the form of drills .
The teachers themselves need to polish up on their practices as well and deduct more marks on grammer .
The more students grades drop as a result of careless grammer , the more they will pay attention and improve .
And if they fail ?
Great ! their skills need refinement .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Seriously, this isn't anything new.
I'm a grad myself and yes every year lots of people fail that test.
And they have every reason to.So it must be hard right?
No, it isn't.
I passed and my grammer is what Charles Barkley would say is 'turrible'But this is why most students fail.1) A ton of international students because of the technical programs.
In computer science and engineering, you are likely: Chinese, Indian or Russian.
Many do not have english as a first language.2) The education system in Ontario (the province Waterloo resides in) doesn't teach grammer.
I don't recall ever doing any sort of grammer drills in elementary school.
Grammer is a set of rules, if you don't know them, then you can't apply themElementary school needs to get back to teaching grammer in the form of drills.
The teachers themselves need to polish up on their practices as well and deduct more marks on grammer.
The more students grades drop as a result of careless grammer, the more they will pay attention and improve.
And if they fail?
Great! their skills need refinement.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980062</id>
	<title>Re:hai</title>
	<author>jimicus</author>
	<datestamp>1265035020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Oh hai.  Dis r Concordia College.  You can haz degree!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Oh hai .
Dis r Concordia College .
You can haz degree !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Oh hai.
Dis r Concordia College.
You can haz degree!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979990</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980700</id>
	<title>Not 'touch' but 'tough'!</title>
	<author>slashbart</author>
	<datestamp>1265037900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Jeez, and it's not even my own language!
<br>
At least half the comments here, as well as TFA <b>confirm</b> the general observation of falling literacy skills even among the university educated.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Jeez , and it 's not even my own language !
At least half the comments here , as well as TFA confirm the general observation of falling literacy skills even among the university educated .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Jeez, and it's not even my own language!
At least half the comments here, as well as TFA confirm the general observation of falling literacy skills even among the university educated.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979950</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980278</id>
	<title>Re:Spell Checking</title>
	<author>Ailure</author>
	<datestamp>1265036040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Personally the spell checking have slowly improved my spelling over time as I quickly learn what words I misspell. I then try to avoid using same words. Of course I use common sense and look around on the Internet manually if the spell checker isn't helping.</p><p>Hell I picked up the bad habit of typing "alot", but stopped when my spell checker would constantly point out my error.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p><p>The only flaw is that spell checkers can (and usually is) suggesting words that have a way different meaning than the one that you intended. But that's when you're supposed to double-check it in a real dictionary anyway...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Personally the spell checking have slowly improved my spelling over time as I quickly learn what words I misspell .
I then try to avoid using same words .
Of course I use common sense and look around on the Internet manually if the spell checker is n't helping.Hell I picked up the bad habit of typing " alot " , but stopped when my spell checker would constantly point out my error .
: ) The only flaw is that spell checkers can ( and usually is ) suggesting words that have a way different meaning than the one that you intended .
But that 's when you 're supposed to double-check it in a real dictionary anyway.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Personally the spell checking have slowly improved my spelling over time as I quickly learn what words I misspell.
I then try to avoid using same words.
Of course I use common sense and look around on the Internet manually if the spell checker isn't helping.Hell I picked up the bad habit of typing "alot", but stopped when my spell checker would constantly point out my error.
:)The only flaw is that spell checkers can (and usually is) suggesting words that have a way different meaning than the one that you intended.
But that's when you're supposed to double-check it in a real dictionary anyway...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979850</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983578</id>
	<title>Entrance Essays????</title>
	<author>potpie</author>
	<datestamp>1265049480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I saw a lot of this in my freshman "English" class, and I find there are 3 reasons why this happens.<br> <br>
1) Natural language change.  "Because" shortens to "cuz" because it's a high frequency word with an unstressed syllable.  "Like" and "I mean" tend to get used in ways I find analogous to the Ancient Greek "men" and "de" discourse particles.  Overall, this is not a bad thing (no matter what anyone says: it's a fact of Language and if it didn't happen we would all be speaking Proto-Indo-European), but it is not good paper writing (at least not yet).<br> <br>
2) English teachers don't know English grammar.  Is it that surprising?  I learned more about English in one year of high school Latin than in all my years of "Language Arts" classes, and it's simple why.  One learns Latin from the ground up: you have to understand the way cases are used and the way verbs are inflected in order to read anything.  In English, we have very little inflection, and much of it is on the pronouns.  Furthermore, one does not "learn" a native language, one "acquires" it, which is to say that the process is different.  You don't actively think about the rules of grammar when you start speaking: your brain does these mental gymnastics for you.  This is why it's not accurate to say that these students have "bad grammar."  I'm sure what they say is grammatical in their own idiolects, otherwise they wouldn't say it.  But English teachers should be able to explain how the grammar of formal English, the paper-writing register, works by convention.  That is, they should know when to use "who" and when to use "whom."  But none of my past English teachers could tell you the difference between those words, and that is a huge problem.<br> <br>
3) ENTRANCE ESSAYS.  Obviously this is a problem that pervades the writing styles of these kids, so presumably they did not just forget how to write after they got accepted to uni.  So either somebody else wrote their essays (which should be considered cheating and grounds for immediate expulsion if discovered), or somebody let them in even though they write like that.  If you want to blame anybody, it's the application readers I'd question first.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I saw a lot of this in my freshman " English " class , and I find there are 3 reasons why this happens .
1 ) Natural language change .
" Because " shortens to " cuz " because it 's a high frequency word with an unstressed syllable .
" Like " and " I mean " tend to get used in ways I find analogous to the Ancient Greek " men " and " de " discourse particles .
Overall , this is not a bad thing ( no matter what anyone says : it 's a fact of Language and if it did n't happen we would all be speaking Proto-Indo-European ) , but it is not good paper writing ( at least not yet ) .
2 ) English teachers do n't know English grammar .
Is it that surprising ?
I learned more about English in one year of high school Latin than in all my years of " Language Arts " classes , and it 's simple why .
One learns Latin from the ground up : you have to understand the way cases are used and the way verbs are inflected in order to read anything .
In English , we have very little inflection , and much of it is on the pronouns .
Furthermore , one does not " learn " a native language , one " acquires " it , which is to say that the process is different .
You do n't actively think about the rules of grammar when you start speaking : your brain does these mental gymnastics for you .
This is why it 's not accurate to say that these students have " bad grammar .
" I 'm sure what they say is grammatical in their own idiolects , otherwise they would n't say it .
But English teachers should be able to explain how the grammar of formal English , the paper-writing register , works by convention .
That is , they should know when to use " who " and when to use " whom .
" But none of my past English teachers could tell you the difference between those words , and that is a huge problem .
3 ) ENTRANCE ESSAYS .
Obviously this is a problem that pervades the writing styles of these kids , so presumably they did not just forget how to write after they got accepted to uni .
So either somebody else wrote their essays ( which should be considered cheating and grounds for immediate expulsion if discovered ) , or somebody let them in even though they write like that .
If you want to blame anybody , it 's the application readers I 'd question first .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I saw a lot of this in my freshman "English" class, and I find there are 3 reasons why this happens.
1) Natural language change.
"Because" shortens to "cuz" because it's a high frequency word with an unstressed syllable.
"Like" and "I mean" tend to get used in ways I find analogous to the Ancient Greek "men" and "de" discourse particles.
Overall, this is not a bad thing (no matter what anyone says: it's a fact of Language and if it didn't happen we would all be speaking Proto-Indo-European), but it is not good paper writing (at least not yet).
2) English teachers don't know English grammar.
Is it that surprising?
I learned more about English in one year of high school Latin than in all my years of "Language Arts" classes, and it's simple why.
One learns Latin from the ground up: you have to understand the way cases are used and the way verbs are inflected in order to read anything.
In English, we have very little inflection, and much of it is on the pronouns.
Furthermore, one does not "learn" a native language, one "acquires" it, which is to say that the process is different.
You don't actively think about the rules of grammar when you start speaking: your brain does these mental gymnastics for you.
This is why it's not accurate to say that these students have "bad grammar.
"  I'm sure what they say is grammatical in their own idiolects, otherwise they wouldn't say it.
But English teachers should be able to explain how the grammar of formal English, the paper-writing register, works by convention.
That is, they should know when to use "who" and when to use "whom.
"  But none of my past English teachers could tell you the difference between those words, and that is a huge problem.
3) ENTRANCE ESSAYS.
Obviously this is a problem that pervades the writing styles of these kids, so presumably they did not just forget how to write after they got accepted to uni.
So either somebody else wrote their essays (which should be considered cheating and grounds for immediate expulsion if discovered), or somebody let them in even though they write like that.
If you want to blame anybody, it's the application readers I'd question first.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980792</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe its the school thats failing</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265038260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No, it is just you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No , it is just you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, it is just you.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980058</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984028</id>
	<title>Re:A few thoughts from a professional English teac</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265051220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If your post is representative of your writing, all I can say is that I sincerely hope that your Doctorate isn't in English.</p><p>I, II, C, IV... really?</p><p>Horrid use of white space.</p><p>Sure, I'm guilty of plenty of poor grammar and spelling, but I never claimed to be an English teacher or a doctor.</p><p>Posting anonymously as I'm sure that some of these stones I'm throwing are going to bounce back on my own glass house. Yup, I'm a coward.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If your post is representative of your writing , all I can say is that I sincerely hope that your Doctorate is n't in English.I , II , C , IV... really ? Horrid use of white space.Sure , I 'm guilty of plenty of poor grammar and spelling , but I never claimed to be an English teacher or a doctor.Posting anonymously as I 'm sure that some of these stones I 'm throwing are going to bounce back on my own glass house .
Yup , I 'm a coward .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If your post is representative of your writing, all I can say is that I sincerely hope that your Doctorate isn't in English.I, II, C, IV... really?Horrid use of white space.Sure, I'm guilty of plenty of poor grammar and spelling, but I never claimed to be an English teacher or a doctor.Posting anonymously as I'm sure that some of these stones I'm throwing are going to bounce back on my own glass house.
Yup, I'm a coward.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981646</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980956</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265039100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Interesting post except that it had nothing to do with GP post.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Interesting post except that it had nothing to do with GP post .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Interesting post except that it had nothing to do with GP post.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980504</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981016</id>
	<title>Cupertino effect</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265039400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>FTA: </p><p><div class="quote"><p>"But "spelling is getting better because of Spellcheck," says Margaret Proctor, University of Toronto writing support co-ordinator.</p></div><p>.  I'd like to see some hard evidence before I agree with this statement.  In my experience, people tend to make spelling errors and go with the spell <strong>chedking</strong> results without actually investigating the error.</p></div><p>Yes, the "Cupertino effect" can make you look like an idiot, but on the other hand....</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>FTA : " But " spelling is getting better because of Spellcheck , " says Margaret Proctor , University of Toronto writing support co-ordinator.. I 'd like to see some hard evidence before I agree with this statement .
In my experience , people tend to make spelling errors and go with the spell chedking results without actually investigating the error.Yes , the " Cupertino effect " can make you look like an idiot , but on the other hand... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>FTA: "But "spelling is getting better because of Spellcheck," says Margaret Proctor, University of Toronto writing support co-ordinator..  I'd like to see some hard evidence before I agree with this statement.
In my experience, people tend to make spelling errors and go with the spell chedking results without actually investigating the error.Yes, the "Cupertino effect" can make you look like an idiot, but on the other hand....
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979850</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980292</id>
	<title>Is it because of the decline of paper media?</title>
	<author>dingen</author>
	<datestamp>1265036100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The trend that youngsters are less and less able to write a coherent sentence seems to be a global thing. I'm not a native English speaker myself, so excuse me for any mistakes, but I'm often amazed at how incredibly bad my fellow Dutchmen write, especially on the internet.</p><p>I wonder if the decline of the paper media have got anything to do with this. Sure, books, newspapers and magazines aren't perfect or even decent at a lot things, but at least they contain (mostly) correctly written texts. People reading these texts are likely to adopt the language used, which means that if the majority of the population use these media as a source of information, they're likely to write what they read. But as the paper media are rapidly losing ground, so is correctly spelled language. On the internet, nobody checks your texts for errors in spelling or grammar, because nobody seems to care. It's all about speed instead of correctness.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The trend that youngsters are less and less able to write a coherent sentence seems to be a global thing .
I 'm not a native English speaker myself , so excuse me for any mistakes , but I 'm often amazed at how incredibly bad my fellow Dutchmen write , especially on the internet.I wonder if the decline of the paper media have got anything to do with this .
Sure , books , newspapers and magazines are n't perfect or even decent at a lot things , but at least they contain ( mostly ) correctly written texts .
People reading these texts are likely to adopt the language used , which means that if the majority of the population use these media as a source of information , they 're likely to write what they read .
But as the paper media are rapidly losing ground , so is correctly spelled language .
On the internet , nobody checks your texts for errors in spelling or grammar , because nobody seems to care .
It 's all about speed instead of correctness .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The trend that youngsters are less and less able to write a coherent sentence seems to be a global thing.
I'm not a native English speaker myself, so excuse me for any mistakes, but I'm often amazed at how incredibly bad my fellow Dutchmen write, especially on the internet.I wonder if the decline of the paper media have got anything to do with this.
Sure, books, newspapers and magazines aren't perfect or even decent at a lot things, but at least they contain (mostly) correctly written texts.
People reading these texts are likely to adopt the language used, which means that if the majority of the population use these media as a source of information, they're likely to write what they read.
But as the paper media are rapidly losing ground, so is correctly spelled language.
On the internet, nobody checks your texts for errors in spelling or grammar, because nobody seems to care.
It's all about speed instead of correctness.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980260</id>
	<title>Good reasons for writing well</title>
	<author>forebees</author>
	<datestamp>1265035920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>One of the big problems with poor written English is reading it and understanding it.

Try this:

Ask students to write a paper on a particular subject

Read and then grade the 50 papers

Read and regrade those 50 papers

Do that with five classes of 50 students and then have another go at discussing whether good written English is helpful to the student.

I think you'll find that when you've read one paper for an hour (and it should have taken you no longer than 30 minutes) and you are still none the wiser as to what they are telling you, you'll soon realise why it is that good written English helps all parties to understand each other.</htmltext>
<tokenext>One of the big problems with poor written English is reading it and understanding it .
Try this : Ask students to write a paper on a particular subject Read and then grade the 50 papers Read and regrade those 50 papers Do that with five classes of 50 students and then have another go at discussing whether good written English is helpful to the student .
I think you 'll find that when you 've read one paper for an hour ( and it should have taken you no longer than 30 minutes ) and you are still none the wiser as to what they are telling you , you 'll soon realise why it is that good written English helps all parties to understand each other .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One of the big problems with poor written English is reading it and understanding it.
Try this:

Ask students to write a paper on a particular subject

Read and then grade the 50 papers

Read and regrade those 50 papers

Do that with five classes of 50 students and then have another go at discussing whether good written English is helpful to the student.
I think you'll find that when you've read one paper for an hour (and it should have taken you no longer than 30 minutes) and you are still none the wiser as to what they are telling you, you'll soon realise why it is that good written English helps all parties to understand each other.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982624</id>
	<title>From the magazine cover in Iron Man</title>
	<author>d34dluk3</author>
	<datestamp>1265045580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Tony Stark Takes Reigns"

</p><p>Even multi-million dollar productions have errors these days...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Tony Stark Takes Reigns " Even multi-million dollar productions have errors these days.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Tony Stark Takes Reigns"

Even multi-million dollar productions have errors these days...</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983086</id>
	<title>Re:As a father...</title>
	<author>neurovish</author>
	<datestamp>1265047500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>With a lack of consistent reinforcement of the basics in every class and in every setting, is it any wonder that the kids can't spell when they get to college?  I recall getting points marked down in all my classes (including science classes) for misspellings, and I am stunned by the fact that somehow proper spelling and grammar is not considered something that anyone other than an English teacher should be concerned about when grading.</p></div><p>So you could theoretically fail your physics course, not because you didn't know any physics, but because your lab reports had misspellings and grammatical errors?   I recall some teachers in high school taking off points (almost always an arbitrary amount) for bad grammar outside of english class, but these were also courses that involved a large amount of writing or were closely related to english, such as theatre, history, or philosophy.  I don't recall ever losing points in chemistry, physics, math, etc. due to any grammatical errors (plenty for getting dimensional analysis wrong though).  You would probably also love to hear that our english teachers usually did not penalise us for spelling and grammar mistakes, although they were always pointed out.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>With a lack of consistent reinforcement of the basics in every class and in every setting , is it any wonder that the kids ca n't spell when they get to college ?
I recall getting points marked down in all my classes ( including science classes ) for misspellings , and I am stunned by the fact that somehow proper spelling and grammar is not considered something that anyone other than an English teacher should be concerned about when grading.So you could theoretically fail your physics course , not because you did n't know any physics , but because your lab reports had misspellings and grammatical errors ?
I recall some teachers in high school taking off points ( almost always an arbitrary amount ) for bad grammar outside of english class , but these were also courses that involved a large amount of writing or were closely related to english , such as theatre , history , or philosophy .
I do n't recall ever losing points in chemistry , physics , math , etc .
due to any grammatical errors ( plenty for getting dimensional analysis wrong though ) .
You would probably also love to hear that our english teachers usually did not penalise us for spelling and grammar mistakes , although they were always pointed out .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>With a lack of consistent reinforcement of the basics in every class and in every setting, is it any wonder that the kids can't spell when they get to college?
I recall getting points marked down in all my classes (including science classes) for misspellings, and I am stunned by the fact that somehow proper spelling and grammar is not considered something that anyone other than an English teacher should be concerned about when grading.So you could theoretically fail your physics course, not because you didn't know any physics, but because your lab reports had misspellings and grammatical errors?
I recall some teachers in high school taking off points (almost always an arbitrary amount) for bad grammar outside of english class, but these were also courses that involved a large amount of writing or were closely related to english, such as theatre, history, or philosophy.
I don't recall ever losing points in chemistry, physics, math, etc.
due to any grammatical errors (plenty for getting dimensional analysis wrong though).
You would probably also love to hear that our english teachers usually did not penalise us for spelling and grammar mistakes, although they were always pointed out.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980568</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979816</id>
	<title>And this is how we die</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265033820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At this point, is our decline even reversible? I could draw some parallels with history (as I have in past posts) --- but what would be the point? We'll just have more people <a href="http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1531966&amp;cid=30978286" title="slashdot.org" rel="nofollow">argue that education is worthless</a> [slashdot.org], or say how it's all the fault of teachers' unions, or argue that we need more charter schools.</p><p>So, we point fingers, scream, and ape talking points while our society crumbles around us. What's the point?</p><p>We're already the laughingstock of the world; the next generation actually looks <i>worse</i> than the boomers do, and that's an accomplishment. Screw this: I'm getting out. There must be some place in the world that welcomes those Americans who manage to not be complete morons.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At this point , is our decline even reversible ?
I could draw some parallels with history ( as I have in past posts ) --- but what would be the point ?
We 'll just have more people argue that education is worthless [ slashdot.org ] , or say how it 's all the fault of teachers ' unions , or argue that we need more charter schools.So , we point fingers , scream , and ape talking points while our society crumbles around us .
What 's the point ? We 're already the laughingstock of the world ; the next generation actually looks worse than the boomers do , and that 's an accomplishment .
Screw this : I 'm getting out .
There must be some place in the world that welcomes those Americans who manage to not be complete morons .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At this point, is our decline even reversible?
I could draw some parallels with history (as I have in past posts) --- but what would be the point?
We'll just have more people argue that education is worthless [slashdot.org], or say how it's all the fault of teachers' unions, or argue that we need more charter schools.So, we point fingers, scream, and ape talking points while our society crumbles around us.
What's the point?We're already the laughingstock of the world; the next generation actually looks worse than the boomers do, and that's an accomplishment.
Screw this: I'm getting out.
There must be some place in the world that welcomes those Americans who manage to not be complete morons.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30988110</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>FiloEleven</author>
	<datestamp>1265023380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>If you had a perfect photographic memory, you would breeze through most any modern school curriculum. That doesn't mean you'd actually understand what you have memorized or be able to adapt that knowledge to different situations.</p> </div><p>Our society is obsessed with facts, so that is what we teach.  What we ought to be teaching, in every subject, is both factual and historical content.  William James put it best: "You can give humanistic value to almost anything by teaching it historically. Geology, economics, mechanics are humanities when taught with reference to the successive achievements of the geniuses to which these sciences owe their being. Not taught thus, literature remains grammar, art a catalogue, history a list of dates, and natural science a sheet of formulas and weights and measures."</p><p>Grammar by itself is useless, which is why students ought to immerse themselves in literature.  They would see that the lifeless framework of grammar is supported by stories to capture their imagination, showing them why grammar is important and useful.  And DO NOT force an analysis of the piece!  That has its place, but analysis takes all the pleasure out of reading a novel--instead of wondering how the story will unfold and engaging the characters, the reader is intent on finding how the author's difficult childhood affects the story he tells.</p><p>The reason the incompetence is most evident in writing is because writing is the most necessary component for doing anything else.  The incompetence shows itself elsewhere in more subtle ways.  In history, for example, by compressing the diverse beliefs and attitudes of an entire culture into the statement "Europe in the Middle Ages was very religious."  More often, the incompetence is shown only by the lack of new ideas; you won't find any examples because nobody is even trying to publish anything.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you had a perfect photographic memory , you would breeze through most any modern school curriculum .
That does n't mean you 'd actually understand what you have memorized or be able to adapt that knowledge to different situations .
Our society is obsessed with facts , so that is what we teach .
What we ought to be teaching , in every subject , is both factual and historical content .
William James put it best : " You can give humanistic value to almost anything by teaching it historically .
Geology , economics , mechanics are humanities when taught with reference to the successive achievements of the geniuses to which these sciences owe their being .
Not taught thus , literature remains grammar , art a catalogue , history a list of dates , and natural science a sheet of formulas and weights and measures .
" Grammar by itself is useless , which is why students ought to immerse themselves in literature .
They would see that the lifeless framework of grammar is supported by stories to capture their imagination , showing them why grammar is important and useful .
And DO NOT force an analysis of the piece !
That has its place , but analysis takes all the pleasure out of reading a novel--instead of wondering how the story will unfold and engaging the characters , the reader is intent on finding how the author 's difficult childhood affects the story he tells.The reason the incompetence is most evident in writing is because writing is the most necessary component for doing anything else .
The incompetence shows itself elsewhere in more subtle ways .
In history , for example , by compressing the diverse beliefs and attitudes of an entire culture into the statement " Europe in the Middle Ages was very religious .
" More often , the incompetence is shown only by the lack of new ideas ; you wo n't find any examples because nobody is even trying to publish anything .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you had a perfect photographic memory, you would breeze through most any modern school curriculum.
That doesn't mean you'd actually understand what you have memorized or be able to adapt that knowledge to different situations.
Our society is obsessed with facts, so that is what we teach.
What we ought to be teaching, in every subject, is both factual and historical content.
William James put it best: "You can give humanistic value to almost anything by teaching it historically.
Geology, economics, mechanics are humanities when taught with reference to the successive achievements of the geniuses to which these sciences owe their being.
Not taught thus, literature remains grammar, art a catalogue, history a list of dates, and natural science a sheet of formulas and weights and measures.
"Grammar by itself is useless, which is why students ought to immerse themselves in literature.
They would see that the lifeless framework of grammar is supported by stories to capture their imagination, showing them why grammar is important and useful.
And DO NOT force an analysis of the piece!
That has its place, but analysis takes all the pleasure out of reading a novel--instead of wondering how the story will unfold and engaging the characters, the reader is intent on finding how the author's difficult childhood affects the story he tells.The reason the incompetence is most evident in writing is because writing is the most necessary component for doing anything else.
The incompetence shows itself elsewhere in more subtle ways.
In history, for example, by compressing the diverse beliefs and attitudes of an entire culture into the statement "Europe in the Middle Ages was very religious.
"  More often, the incompetence is shown only by the lack of new ideas; you won't find any examples because nobody is even trying to publish anything.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980606</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982760</id>
	<title>Re:term paper on Shakespeare</title>
	<author>iprefermuffins</author>
	<datestamp>1265046120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>How many people don't know that "wherefore" means "why" and not "where"?</htmltext>
<tokenext>How many people do n't know that " wherefore " means " why " and not " where " ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How many people don't know that "wherefore" means "why" and not "where"?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979924</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982630</id>
	<title>There's no such school as "Waterloo University"</title>
	<author>paulschreiber</author>
	<datestamp>1265045640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>There's no such school as "Waterloo University." It's the <a href="http://www.uwaterloo.ca/" title="uwaterloo.ca">University of Waterloo</a> [uwaterloo.ca].
<br>
<br>Paul 1,
<br>Susanna Kelley 0</htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's no such school as " Waterloo University .
" It 's the University of Waterloo [ uwaterloo.ca ] .
Paul 1 , Susanna Kelley 0</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's no such school as "Waterloo University.
" It's the University of Waterloo [uwaterloo.ca].
Paul 1,
Susanna Kelley 0</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981980</id>
	<title>Read moar books</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265043120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As a student, I have to say that the continuing evolution of language, due in part to medium like email and text messaging, has been met with resistance by academia and grammar-purists alike. The English language alone has undergone significant transformations in the past few decades. Think of those web-inspired verbs that have sprung up, such as "googling" or "photoshopped". (Ironically, both terms are marked by Word as spelling errors.)</p><p>At the same time, the fact that there are students, even professionals, who can't use proper English when needed is a sad, sad state of affairs. Read more, you losers!</p><p>PS. Subject misspelling intended for humorous effect.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As a student , I have to say that the continuing evolution of language , due in part to medium like email and text messaging , has been met with resistance by academia and grammar-purists alike .
The English language alone has undergone significant transformations in the past few decades .
Think of those web-inspired verbs that have sprung up , such as " googling " or " photoshopped " .
( Ironically , both terms are marked by Word as spelling errors .
) At the same time , the fact that there are students , even professionals , who ca n't use proper English when needed is a sad , sad state of affairs .
Read more , you losers ! PS .
Subject misspelling intended for humorous effect .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a student, I have to say that the continuing evolution of language, due in part to medium like email and text messaging, has been met with resistance by academia and grammar-purists alike.
The English language alone has undergone significant transformations in the past few decades.
Think of those web-inspired verbs that have sprung up, such as "googling" or "photoshopped".
(Ironically, both terms are marked by Word as spelling errors.
)At the same time, the fact that there are students, even professionals, who can't use proper English when needed is a sad, sad state of affairs.
Read more, you losers!PS.
Subject misspelling intended for humorous effect.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979872</id>
	<title>Re:And this is how we die</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265034180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Isn't Waterloo University in Canada?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is n't Waterloo University in Canada ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Isn't Waterloo University in Canada?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979816</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980110</id>
	<title>Re:Spell Checking</title>
	<author>Junta</author>
	<datestamp>1265035260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's high thyme we put a steak in the ground.  If this keeps happening, we will brake our language irreversibly.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's high thyme we put a steak in the ground .
If this keeps happening , we will brake our language irreversibly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's high thyme we put a steak in the ground.
If this keeps happening, we will brake our language irreversibly.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979850</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982746</id>
	<title>Think Punctuation is unimportant? Answer this:</title>
	<author>flogger</author>
	<datestamp>1265046120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Here is a simple exercise. Answer the following prompt? Can you do it? I'll post the answer in a reply.<br> <br>

<b>Punctuate the following letter.</b> You cannot remove words or letters, not can you add words or letters. The order of the words must remain the same. You can only add punctuation and capitalization when required due to punctuation. Go ahead and copy/paste this into notepad/emacs/vi. Good Luck.<br> <br>
================<br>

Dear John<br> <br>

	I want a man who knows what love is all about you are generous kind<br>
thoughtful people who are not like you admit to being useless and inferior<br>
you have ruined me for other men I yearn for you I have no feelings<br>
whatsoever when we&rsquo;re apart I can be forever happy will you let me be<br>
yours
<br> <br>
		Gloria</htmltext>
<tokenext>Here is a simple exercise .
Answer the following prompt ?
Can you do it ?
I 'll post the answer in a reply .
Punctuate the following letter .
You can not remove words or letters , not can you add words or letters .
The order of the words must remain the same .
You can only add punctuation and capitalization when required due to punctuation .
Go ahead and copy/paste this into notepad/emacs/vi .
Good Luck .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Dear John I want a man who knows what love is all about you are generous kind thoughtful people who are not like you admit to being useless and inferior you have ruined me for other men I yearn for you I have no feelings whatsoever when we    re apart I can be forever happy will you let me be yours Gloria</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Here is a simple exercise.
Answer the following prompt?
Can you do it?
I'll post the answer in a reply.
Punctuate the following letter.
You cannot remove words or letters, not can you add words or letters.
The order of the words must remain the same.
You can only add punctuation and capitalization when required due to punctuation.
Go ahead and copy/paste this into notepad/emacs/vi.
Good Luck.
================

Dear John 

	I want a man who knows what love is all about you are generous kind
thoughtful people who are not like you admit to being useless and inferior
you have ruined me for other men I yearn for you I have no feelings
whatsoever when we’re apart I can be forever happy will you let me be
yours
 
		Gloria</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30986274</id>
	<title>Zoe</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265016540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I am a student at University in the Uk and am nicknamed a 'Grammar Nazi' as I cannot abide bad punctuation and grammar. But I can understand why the majority of my friends cannot spell words correctly or use apostrophes in the wrong places. English lessons in the Uk never teach you anything other than creative writing and comprehension. I was one of four students out of the 300+ in the year that opted to do Latin at GCSE level and it was only here I learned sentence syntax. The majority of students my age will have never been taught when to use apostrophes or when to use there, their and they're.<br>This isn't a failing of the students, its a failing of the education system.<br>Except from when they use text talk. Now that's just plain annoying.</p><p>Also, I think that it's and its should be changed so that they match every other use of an apostrophe.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I am a student at University in the Uk and am nicknamed a 'Grammar Nazi ' as I can not abide bad punctuation and grammar .
But I can understand why the majority of my friends can not spell words correctly or use apostrophes in the wrong places .
English lessons in the Uk never teach you anything other than creative writing and comprehension .
I was one of four students out of the 300 + in the year that opted to do Latin at GCSE level and it was only here I learned sentence syntax .
The majority of students my age will have never been taught when to use apostrophes or when to use there , their and they 're.This is n't a failing of the students , its a failing of the education system.Except from when they use text talk .
Now that 's just plain annoying.Also , I think that it 's and its should be changed so that they match every other use of an apostrophe .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am a student at University in the Uk and am nicknamed a 'Grammar Nazi' as I cannot abide bad punctuation and grammar.
But I can understand why the majority of my friends cannot spell words correctly or use apostrophes in the wrong places.
English lessons in the Uk never teach you anything other than creative writing and comprehension.
I was one of four students out of the 300+ in the year that opted to do Latin at GCSE level and it was only here I learned sentence syntax.
The majority of students my age will have never been taught when to use apostrophes or when to use there, their and they're.This isn't a failing of the students, its a failing of the education system.Except from when they use text talk.
Now that's just plain annoying.Also, I think that it's and its should be changed so that they match every other use of an apostrophe.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980570</id>
	<title>Re:Universities can't keep up</title>
	<author>Ephemeriis</author>
	<datestamp>1265037240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>So what this demonstrates is that universities are not adapting as fast as the English language is.  It makes sense in the information age that our language would be evolving at unprecedented rates.  We could be like the L'academie Francaise and dictate that because it wasn't invented in an ivory tower it's not the true language; but English has historically been a living language - that is it's greatest strength.  (We all know what 'cuz' means; don't TAs and Professors?)</p><p>There are uses for more formal linguistics, in the same way Latin was used well past the end of the Roman empire, to sound regal or intellectual - but it's really all for show.</p></div><p>And a formal test in a college class is probably a good place to use a formal language, don't you think?</p><p>Do you want to lose points on a test because you used the language in an odd way that your professor didn't understand?</p><p>You claim that we all know what 'cuz' means...  Honestly, the first thing that pops into my mind is 'cousin' - I have a number of family members from the south who refer to cousins as 'cuz'.</p><p>So...  We could take a pile of words like "cuz he said so" and translate that as either "because he said so" or "cousin, he said so."  And if you're going to use the language in vague ways like that, you're going to have to accept the possibility of misunderstandings.  And points taken off of your exam.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>So what this demonstrates is that universities are not adapting as fast as the English language is .
It makes sense in the information age that our language would be evolving at unprecedented rates .
We could be like the L'academie Francaise and dictate that because it was n't invented in an ivory tower it 's not the true language ; but English has historically been a living language - that is it 's greatest strength .
( We all know what 'cuz ' means ; do n't TAs and Professors ?
) There are uses for more formal linguistics , in the same way Latin was used well past the end of the Roman empire , to sound regal or intellectual - but it 's really all for show.And a formal test in a college class is probably a good place to use a formal language , do n't you think ? Do you want to lose points on a test because you used the language in an odd way that your professor did n't understand ? You claim that we all know what 'cuz ' means... Honestly , the first thing that pops into my mind is 'cousin ' - I have a number of family members from the south who refer to cousins as 'cuz'.So... We could take a pile of words like " cuz he said so " and translate that as either " because he said so " or " cousin , he said so .
" And if you 're going to use the language in vague ways like that , you 're going to have to accept the possibility of misunderstandings .
And points taken off of your exam .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So what this demonstrates is that universities are not adapting as fast as the English language is.
It makes sense in the information age that our language would be evolving at unprecedented rates.
We could be like the L'academie Francaise and dictate that because it wasn't invented in an ivory tower it's not the true language; but English has historically been a living language - that is it's greatest strength.
(We all know what 'cuz' means; don't TAs and Professors?
)There are uses for more formal linguistics, in the same way Latin was used well past the end of the Roman empire, to sound regal or intellectual - but it's really all for show.And a formal test in a college class is probably a good place to use a formal language, don't you think?Do you want to lose points on a test because you used the language in an odd way that your professor didn't understand?You claim that we all know what 'cuz' means...  Honestly, the first thing that pops into my mind is 'cousin' - I have a number of family members from the south who refer to cousins as 'cuz'.So...  We could take a pile of words like "cuz he said so" and translate that as either "because he said so" or "cousin, he said so.
"  And if you're going to use the language in vague ways like that, you're going to have to accept the possibility of misunderstandings.
And points taken off of your exam.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979892</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982904</id>
	<title>Yeesh...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265046780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>...You sound like a helicopter parent.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>...You sound like a helicopter parent .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>...You sound like a helicopter parent.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980568</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980886</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>jonbryce</author>
	<datestamp>1265038740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's because you were taught English by an English teacher, and the English people were taught English by their parents and other random people they happened to meet.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's because you were taught English by an English teacher , and the English people were taught English by their parents and other random people they happened to meet .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's because you were taught English by an English teacher, and the English people were taught English by their parents and other random people they happened to meet.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980048</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979858</id>
	<title>Schools</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265034060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How the hell do those people pass schools without anyone telling them that something like that in official texts is bad, BAD, *BAD* in that country?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How the hell do those people pass schools without anyone telling them that something like that in official texts is bad , BAD , * BAD * in that country ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How the hell do those people pass schools without anyone telling them that something like that in official texts is bad, BAD, *BAD* in that country?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979830</id>
	<title>Relevant</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265033940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I once had a freshman student write in a paper, "The bathroom smelled in a way that is not relevant to life."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I once had a freshman student write in a paper , " The bathroom smelled in a way that is not relevant to life .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I once had a freshman student write in a paper, "The bathroom smelled in a way that is not relevant to life.
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981262</id>
	<title>Well you know what they say...</title>
	<author>PPalmgren</author>
	<datestamp>1265040360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Someone has to be the janitor.  I think the difference between the past and present is that these people didn't go to college.  Another possibility is that their illiteracy didn't jump off the page like it does now with acronyms, emoticons, and shorthand, it simply presented itself in another form like spelling and run-on sentences.  When everyone believes that college is necessary to make a good living, even those not capable will give it a try (and eventually end up in marketing).</p><p>I'm sure someone is going to find that overly abrasive, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Someone has to be the janitor .
I think the difference between the past and present is that these people did n't go to college .
Another possibility is that their illiteracy did n't jump off the page like it does now with acronyms , emoticons , and shorthand , it simply presented itself in another form like spelling and run-on sentences .
When everyone believes that college is necessary to make a good living , even those not capable will give it a try ( and eventually end up in marketing ) .I 'm sure someone is going to find that overly abrasive , but that 's my opinion and I 'm sticking to it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Someone has to be the janitor.
I think the difference between the past and present is that these people didn't go to college.
Another possibility is that their illiteracy didn't jump off the page like it does now with acronyms, emoticons, and shorthand, it simply presented itself in another form like spelling and run-on sentences.
When everyone believes that college is necessary to make a good living, even those not capable will give it a try (and eventually end up in marketing).I'm sure someone is going to find that overly abrasive, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980070</id>
	<title>Re:Spell Checking</title>
	<author>Sockatume</author>
	<datestamp>1265035080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Speaking of uncritical spell checking, from the article:</p><p><i>'Definitely' is always spelled with an 'a' -'definitely'. I don't know why</i></p><p>Uh-huh.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Speaking of uncritical spell checking , from the article : 'Definitely ' is always spelled with an 'a ' -'definitely' .
I do n't know whyUh-huh .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Speaking of uncritical spell checking, from the article:'Definitely' is always spelled with an 'a' -'definitely'.
I don't know whyUh-huh.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979850</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984166</id>
	<title>Factors to consider at UW</title>
	<author>stevo3232</author>
	<datestamp>1265051760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There are a number of factors to consider when using UW as an example. UW's best and largest programs are computer science and engineering, not arts. These tend to attract students that didn't do particularly well in high school English classes. Furthermore, the school has a large number of foreign students who seem to find learning English impossible. While only 6.9\% of students are studying on a student Visa, there appear to be a larger group of people who are recent immigrants and finished some of high school in Canada without actually learning English properly.</p><p>Setting aside issues specific to UW, part of this is to blame on poor high schools, but plenty of them do teach grammar. My high school certainly did.</p><p>The University of Waterloo should also stop accepting students who get below 75\% in English. Prospective students tend to get poor marks in English while letting math and science marks raise their average.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There are a number of factors to consider when using UW as an example .
UW 's best and largest programs are computer science and engineering , not arts .
These tend to attract students that did n't do particularly well in high school English classes .
Furthermore , the school has a large number of foreign students who seem to find learning English impossible .
While only 6.9 \ % of students are studying on a student Visa , there appear to be a larger group of people who are recent immigrants and finished some of high school in Canada without actually learning English properly.Setting aside issues specific to UW , part of this is to blame on poor high schools , but plenty of them do teach grammar .
My high school certainly did.The University of Waterloo should also stop accepting students who get below 75 \ % in English .
Prospective students tend to get poor marks in English while letting math and science marks raise their average .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There are a number of factors to consider when using UW as an example.
UW's best and largest programs are computer science and engineering, not arts.
These tend to attract students that didn't do particularly well in high school English classes.
Furthermore, the school has a large number of foreign students who seem to find learning English impossible.
While only 6.9\% of students are studying on a student Visa, there appear to be a larger group of people who are recent immigrants and finished some of high school in Canada without actually learning English properly.Setting aside issues specific to UW, part of this is to blame on poor high schools, but plenty of them do teach grammar.
My high school certainly did.The University of Waterloo should also stop accepting students who get below 75\% in English.
Prospective students tend to get poor marks in English while letting math and science marks raise their average.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980556</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>Kartoffel</author>
	<datestamp>1265037180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Makes you wonder how observant the parents really are.  A good parent would notice that precious Suzie and Billy can't read, spell or do math, yet they're pulling down straight A's.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Makes you wonder how observant the parents really are .
A good parent would notice that precious Suzie and Billy ca n't read , spell or do math , yet they 're pulling down straight A 's .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Makes you wonder how observant the parents really are.
A good parent would notice that precious Suzie and Billy can't read, spell or do math, yet they're pulling down straight A's.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979950</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982816</id>
	<title>Spell Checker Poem</title>
	<author>SwimmerBoy</author>
	<datestamp>1265046420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Spell Checker Poem <br>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br>
<br>
Eye halve a spelling chequer It came with my pea sea<br>
It plainly marques four my revue Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.<br>
<br>
Eye strike a key and type a word And weight four it two say<br>
Weather eye am wrong oar write It shows me strait a weigh.<br>
As soon as a mist ache is maid It nose bee fore two long<br>
And eye can put the error rite Its rare lea ever wrong.<br>
Eye have run this poem threw it I am shore your pleased two no<br>
Its letter perfect awl the weigh My chequer tolled me sew.<br>
<br>
-Sauce unknown</htmltext>
<tokenext>Spell Checker Poem ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Eye halve a spelling chequer It came with my pea sea It plainly marques four my revue Miss steaks eye kin knot sea .
Eye strike a key and type a word And weight four it two say Weather eye am wrong oar write It shows me strait a weigh .
As soon as a mist ache is maid It nose bee fore two long And eye can put the error rite Its rare lea ever wrong .
Eye have run this poem threw it I am shore your pleased two no Its letter perfect awl the weigh My chequer tolled me sew .
-Sauce unknown</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Spell Checker Poem 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Eye halve a spelling chequer It came with my pea sea
It plainly marques four my revue Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.
Eye strike a key and type a word And weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong oar write It shows me strait a weigh.
As soon as a mist ache is maid It nose bee fore two long
And eye can put the error rite Its rare lea ever wrong.
Eye have run this poem threw it I am shore your pleased two no
Its letter perfect awl the weigh My chequer tolled me sew.
-Sauce unknown</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979850</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984722</id>
	<title>Re:Universities can't keep up</title>
	<author>Riktov</author>
	<datestamp>1265054400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Actually, if you're talking about academic publications, I would bet that the typical foreign (non-native speaker or English) reader would have no more, perhaps even less, trouble understanding modern SMS-influenced grammar than a typical middle-aged, non-academic native speaker of English (myself). Why? Because such people have probably picked up all their informal English from their peers -- fellow grad students who are young and tech-savvy.</p><p>There's no arguing your main point that using "cuz" in an academic paper is a very bad idea, but I think you're underestimating the ability of non-native speakers to pick up informal language. The French speaker can figure out a phonetic transform in English-as-a-second-language just as well as the native speaker.</p><p>I frequently read English-language e-mails/postings by Japanese, Turkish, and Brazilian people and they use "pls" and "ur" and the rest all the time. Conversely, I occasionally read Portuguese (my third or fourth language) on net forums, and figuring out abbreviations like<br>
&nbsp; "vc" for "voc&#234;" is quite simple.</p><p>
&nbsp;</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Actually , if you 're talking about academic publications , I would bet that the typical foreign ( non-native speaker or English ) reader would have no more , perhaps even less , trouble understanding modern SMS-influenced grammar than a typical middle-aged , non-academic native speaker of English ( myself ) .
Why ? Because such people have probably picked up all their informal English from their peers -- fellow grad students who are young and tech-savvy.There 's no arguing your main point that using " cuz " in an academic paper is a very bad idea , but I think you 're underestimating the ability of non-native speakers to pick up informal language .
The French speaker can figure out a phonetic transform in English-as-a-second-language just as well as the native speaker.I frequently read English-language e-mails/postings by Japanese , Turkish , and Brazilian people and they use " pls " and " ur " and the rest all the time .
Conversely , I occasionally read Portuguese ( my third or fourth language ) on net forums , and figuring out abbreviations like   " vc " for " voc   " is quite simple .
 </tokentext>
<sentencetext>Actually, if you're talking about academic publications, I would bet that the typical foreign (non-native speaker or English) reader would have no more, perhaps even less, trouble understanding modern SMS-influenced grammar than a typical middle-aged, non-academic native speaker of English (myself).
Why? Because such people have probably picked up all their informal English from their peers -- fellow grad students who are young and tech-savvy.There's no arguing your main point that using "cuz" in an academic paper is a very bad idea, but I think you're underestimating the ability of non-native speakers to pick up informal language.
The French speaker can figure out a phonetic transform in English-as-a-second-language just as well as the native speaker.I frequently read English-language e-mails/postings by Japanese, Turkish, and Brazilian people and they use "pls" and "ur" and the rest all the time.
Conversely, I occasionally read Portuguese (my third or fourth language) on net forums, and figuring out abbreviations like
  "vc" for "você" is quite simple.
 </sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980196</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30991902</id>
	<title>Re:This does not surprise me.</title>
	<author>Catmoves</author>
	<datestamp>1265049300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Many, many years ago, I became an apprentice in Linotype typesetting. Finished the apprenticeship and went off to work in the magical world of printing. But more importantly, we apprentices were taught how to use punctuation, how to check for spelling errors and how to correct them.We set type for all manner of things (those that had been written, corrected and submitted by editors and agents) and were careful to learn how all those funny little marks were used. It was a man's job demanding accuracy and speed. And we had professional proofreaders
who were tops at their jobs.
And then came the age of phototype setting. And typewriter keyboards. And 18 year old girl typists plunking away at the keys.
So the typographers disappeared, the editors and agents found other things to do and the professional proofreaders all but disappeared.
And the kids thought they could do the job that professionals could do. And so the slow destruction of literate writing began.
These same kids are the reason we find light green type with green backgrounds.
The reason we find 6 or 7 different and clashing typefaces in an 8 or 9 word heading.
The reason we have page after page of reverse type (and, yes, Virginia, the more you are forced to read such trash the harder it becomes on your eyes and brain. And the more you tend to skip some things).
And the reason that we seem to ignore easy to read serif type and use eye straining san serif faces. The youngsters have never read even a paper (let alone a book) on typography. And why serif type is easier on the human brain.
There are many reasons for the lack of capability in English among today's people. I thought you might like to hear my theory on some more of the reasons.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Many , many years ago , I became an apprentice in Linotype typesetting .
Finished the apprenticeship and went off to work in the magical world of printing .
But more importantly , we apprentices were taught how to use punctuation , how to check for spelling errors and how to correct them.We set type for all manner of things ( those that had been written , corrected and submitted by editors and agents ) and were careful to learn how all those funny little marks were used .
It was a man 's job demanding accuracy and speed .
And we had professional proofreaders who were tops at their jobs .
And then came the age of phototype setting .
And typewriter keyboards .
And 18 year old girl typists plunking away at the keys .
So the typographers disappeared , the editors and agents found other things to do and the professional proofreaders all but disappeared .
And the kids thought they could do the job that professionals could do .
And so the slow destruction of literate writing began .
These same kids are the reason we find light green type with green backgrounds .
The reason we find 6 or 7 different and clashing typefaces in an 8 or 9 word heading .
The reason we have page after page of reverse type ( and , yes , Virginia , the more you are forced to read such trash the harder it becomes on your eyes and brain .
And the more you tend to skip some things ) .
And the reason that we seem to ignore easy to read serif type and use eye straining san serif faces .
The youngsters have never read even a paper ( let alone a book ) on typography .
And why serif type is easier on the human brain .
There are many reasons for the lack of capability in English among today 's people .
I thought you might like to hear my theory on some more of the reasons .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Many, many years ago, I became an apprentice in Linotype typesetting.
Finished the apprenticeship and went off to work in the magical world of printing.
But more importantly, we apprentices were taught how to use punctuation, how to check for spelling errors and how to correct them.We set type for all manner of things (those that had been written, corrected and submitted by editors and agents) and were careful to learn how all those funny little marks were used.
It was a man's job demanding accuracy and speed.
And we had professional proofreaders
who were tops at their jobs.
And then came the age of phototype setting.
And typewriter keyboards.
And 18 year old girl typists plunking away at the keys.
So the typographers disappeared, the editors and agents found other things to do and the professional proofreaders all but disappeared.
And the kids thought they could do the job that professionals could do.
And so the slow destruction of literate writing began.
These same kids are the reason we find light green type with green backgrounds.
The reason we find 6 or 7 different and clashing typefaces in an 8 or 9 word heading.
The reason we have page after page of reverse type (and, yes, Virginia, the more you are forced to read such trash the harder it becomes on your eyes and brain.
And the more you tend to skip some things).
And the reason that we seem to ignore easy to read serif type and use eye straining san serif faces.
The youngsters have never read even a paper (let alone a book) on typography.
And why serif type is easier on the human brain.
There are many reasons for the lack of capability in English among today's people.
I thought you might like to hear my theory on some more of the reasons.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980108</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980442</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>bytesex</author>
	<datestamp>1265036760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Nobody ever though them this."  Tsk tsk tsk.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Nobody ever though them this .
" Tsk tsk tsk .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Nobody ever though them this.
"  Tsk tsk tsk.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980048</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982728</id>
	<title>Re:Color me surprised</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265046060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Blame the parents <b>who's</b> precious little snowflakes...</p></div><p>so close!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Blame the parents who 's precious little snowflakes...so close !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Blame the parents who's precious little snowflakes...so close!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981970</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981066</id>
	<title>Just misleading</title>
	<author>The Abused Developer</author>
	<datestamp>1265039580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Well, this is the throwing the cat game - the reality is that because of the inflated immigration from the South and East Asia which accounts in Toronto already for more than 50\% of its inhabitants hearing and expecting good English is not realistic anymore.
The traditional Canadian culture has sunk under a Bollywood mist - and, its going to get to the level where the standard spoken English will be in fact the South-Asian dialect/variant.
Just as simple as that
<a href="http://www.toronto.ca/immigration/message\_imm.htm" title="toronto.ca" rel="nofollow">http://www.toronto.ca/immigration/message\_imm.htm</a> [toronto.ca]</htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , this is the throwing the cat game - the reality is that because of the inflated immigration from the South and East Asia which accounts in Toronto already for more than 50 \ % of its inhabitants hearing and expecting good English is not realistic anymore .
The traditional Canadian culture has sunk under a Bollywood mist - and , its going to get to the level where the standard spoken English will be in fact the South-Asian dialect/variant .
Just as simple as that http : //www.toronto.ca/immigration/message \ _imm.htm [ toronto.ca ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, this is the throwing the cat game - the reality is that because of the inflated immigration from the South and East Asia which accounts in Toronto already for more than 50\% of its inhabitants hearing and expecting good English is not realistic anymore.
The traditional Canadian culture has sunk under a Bollywood mist - and, its going to get to the level where the standard spoken English will be in fact the South-Asian dialect/variant.
Just as simple as that
http://www.toronto.ca/immigration/message\_imm.htm [toronto.ca]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984438</id>
	<title>Re:YOU DIDN'T CLOSE YOUR PARENTHESIS!</title>
	<author>Locke2005</author>
	<datestamp>1265053080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>That's why, as an old Interlisp developer, I always put a "]" at the end of every paragraph when I'm composing in English...</htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's why , as an old Interlisp developer , I always put a " ] " at the end of every paragraph when I 'm composing in English.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's why, as an old Interlisp developer, I always put a "]" at the end of every paragraph when I'm composing in English...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980736</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30986308</id>
	<title>language evolves with new communication media</title>
	<author>kyliaar</author>
	<datestamp>1265016660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Who here could pass a grammar test of Middle English?</p><p>By and large, the distinction between the middle versions of language and the modern versions of languages is around the time of the invention and proliferation of the printing press which widely changed how information was distributed and consumed.  This has become and is still considered the norm.</p><p>Now, with instant short messaging becoming a reality, new, more abbreviated ways of communicating are becoming the norm as it is no longer necessary to pen out a long letter to communicate to someone at a distance... even email is becoming a bit passe for casual conversation.  Thus, people's standards of communication are changing and that is bleeding over into other areas.  The context of communication is changing, not the content.</p><p>It is sad that this may cause a lessening in what people would consider a more formal structure of communication but that is just an authoritarian and stodgy viewpoint I believe.  I do believe that proper written grammar has its place and should be taught to students but it should also be stressed as seperate from the more casual forms of communication.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Who here could pass a grammar test of Middle English ? By and large , the distinction between the middle versions of language and the modern versions of languages is around the time of the invention and proliferation of the printing press which widely changed how information was distributed and consumed .
This has become and is still considered the norm.Now , with instant short messaging becoming a reality , new , more abbreviated ways of communicating are becoming the norm as it is no longer necessary to pen out a long letter to communicate to someone at a distance... even email is becoming a bit passe for casual conversation .
Thus , people 's standards of communication are changing and that is bleeding over into other areas .
The context of communication is changing , not the content.It is sad that this may cause a lessening in what people would consider a more formal structure of communication but that is just an authoritarian and stodgy viewpoint I believe .
I do believe that proper written grammar has its place and should be taught to students but it should also be stressed as seperate from the more casual forms of communication .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Who here could pass a grammar test of Middle English?By and large, the distinction between the middle versions of language and the modern versions of languages is around the time of the invention and proliferation of the printing press which widely changed how information was distributed and consumed.
This has become and is still considered the norm.Now, with instant short messaging becoming a reality, new, more abbreviated ways of communicating are becoming the norm as it is no longer necessary to pen out a long letter to communicate to someone at a distance... even email is becoming a bit passe for casual conversation.
Thus, people's standards of communication are changing and that is bleeding over into other areas.
The context of communication is changing, not the content.It is sad that this may cause a lessening in what people would consider a more formal structure of communication but that is just an authoritarian and stodgy viewpoint I believe.
I do believe that proper written grammar has its place and should be taught to students but it should also be stressed as seperate from the more casual forms of communication.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982698</id>
	<title>Re:Anti-intellectual BS</title>
	<author>d34dluk3</author>
	<datestamp>1265045940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As much as I dislike poor grammar/diction, I dislike people like you more. Looking down on people because you're puffed up with your sense of superiority is not cool. </p><p>Yes, it makes them look stupid. No, it's not any of your business unless you're their boss.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As much as I dislike poor grammar/diction , I dislike people like you more .
Looking down on people because you 're puffed up with your sense of superiority is not cool .
Yes , it makes them look stupid .
No , it 's not any of your business unless you 're their boss .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As much as I dislike poor grammar/diction, I dislike people like you more.
Looking down on people because you're puffed up with your sense of superiority is not cool.
Yes, it makes them look stupid.
No, it's not any of your business unless you're their boss.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980416</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980752</id>
	<title>Of France and its newflanged crap</title>
	<author>WaroDaBeast</author>
	<datestamp>1265038080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Last year, I was attending the local <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IUFM" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">IUFM</a> [wikipedia.org] and during my observation course in middle and high school, I noticed that a lot of students struggled with grammar, both in French and English. My tutor told me that things had changed and that kids had stopped learning proper grammar in primary school. I spent the next holidays asking around, and most kids and teachers told me the same thing: a lot of kids just don't learn grammar. <br> <br>Oh well, even the French Minister of National Education doesn't speak good French.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Last year , I was attending the local IUFM [ wikipedia.org ] and during my observation course in middle and high school , I noticed that a lot of students struggled with grammar , both in French and English .
My tutor told me that things had changed and that kids had stopped learning proper grammar in primary school .
I spent the next holidays asking around , and most kids and teachers told me the same thing : a lot of kids just do n't learn grammar .
Oh well , even the French Minister of National Education does n't speak good French .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Last year, I was attending the local IUFM [wikipedia.org] and during my observation course in middle and high school, I noticed that a lot of students struggled with grammar, both in French and English.
My tutor told me that things had changed and that kids had stopped learning proper grammar in primary school.
I spent the next holidays asking around, and most kids and teachers told me the same thing: a lot of kids just don't learn grammar.
Oh well, even the French Minister of National Education doesn't speak good French.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982426</id>
	<title>Oldsters ALWAYS carp about this.</title>
	<author>dpbsmith</author>
	<datestamp>1265044860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There has never been a time when college professors did not complain about the poor language skills of their students. So it was, so it will ever be. The handwringing fails to take many things into account.</p><p>1) A lot of language learning occurs after people leave school, as they continue to absorb written documents for purposes directly related to their careers and their lives. If you are over sixty and you have anything you wrote in college, compare it to something you've written now. You'll be surprised. When my wife was in her twenties, I was disturbed by her inability to punctuate correctly, but I never said a word about it. Over the past forty years, she simply picked it up... from context.</p><p>2) The purpose of reading and writing is to communicate. Oh, sure, it is also there to signal social status, to insure cultural continuity by making it possible for year-2010 readers to read and understand year-1776 documents, and so forth, but, primarily, it is to communicate. In all likelihood these kids are fine at communicating between themselves using written language. Their problem is in communicating with professors. They will learn. There is no single way to communicate, as they taught us in Toastmasters, the first rule is "know your audience."</p><p>When communicating with professors... or with hiring managers via cover letters... one writes in complete sentences, with a topic sentence for every paragraph.</p><p>COMMUNICATING WITH BOSSES<br>*Brief<br>*Bullet points<br>*Three per topic</p><p>In emails and online postings, emoticons<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p><p>In ham radio and CB and tweets, various systems of abbreviation. And so it goes.</p><p>3) What's considered important in education changes, at a surprising rate. I was stunned to look at a 1900s high-school arithmetic book and discover that at that time students were expected to extract cube roots with pencil and paper. (You begin by grouping the digits in threes... the rest is a bit more complicated). We are always shocked that our kids don't know how to diagram a sentence. Then we go in to do a bit of substitute teaching and discover that the geometry students use axioms that we didn't use and call inorganic compounds by new names. Still, a physics student not being able to do a simple calculation in slugs and poundals? What's WRONG with kids these days?</p><p>4) And of course language changes. You read an old novel and wonder why they use a spelling like "Veg'table" or "Pleez" in a piece of dialog, because that's the way they're pronounced... isn't it? Yes, but a hundred years ago they were nonstandard colloquial pronunciations; "please" was properly pronounced as two syllables, "vegetable" as four.</p><p>One thing never changes, though. Nobody will let you split an infinitive. They always say "there's nothing wrong with it, but <em>other</em> people object to it, so don't do it."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There has never been a time when college professors did not complain about the poor language skills of their students .
So it was , so it will ever be .
The handwringing fails to take many things into account.1 ) A lot of language learning occurs after people leave school , as they continue to absorb written documents for purposes directly related to their careers and their lives .
If you are over sixty and you have anything you wrote in college , compare it to something you 've written now .
You 'll be surprised .
When my wife was in her twenties , I was disturbed by her inability to punctuate correctly , but I never said a word about it .
Over the past forty years , she simply picked it up... from context.2 ) The purpose of reading and writing is to communicate .
Oh , sure , it is also there to signal social status , to insure cultural continuity by making it possible for year-2010 readers to read and understand year-1776 documents , and so forth , but , primarily , it is to communicate .
In all likelihood these kids are fine at communicating between themselves using written language .
Their problem is in communicating with professors .
They will learn .
There is no single way to communicate , as they taught us in Toastmasters , the first rule is " know your audience .
" When communicating with professors... or with hiring managers via cover letters... one writes in complete sentences , with a topic sentence for every paragraph.COMMUNICATING WITH BOSSES * Brief * Bullet points * Three per topicIn emails and online postings , emoticons : ) In ham radio and CB and tweets , various systems of abbreviation .
And so it goes.3 ) What 's considered important in education changes , at a surprising rate .
I was stunned to look at a 1900s high-school arithmetic book and discover that at that time students were expected to extract cube roots with pencil and paper .
( You begin by grouping the digits in threes... the rest is a bit more complicated ) .
We are always shocked that our kids do n't know how to diagram a sentence .
Then we go in to do a bit of substitute teaching and discover that the geometry students use axioms that we did n't use and call inorganic compounds by new names .
Still , a physics student not being able to do a simple calculation in slugs and poundals ?
What 's WRONG with kids these days ? 4 ) And of course language changes .
You read an old novel and wonder why they use a spelling like " Veg'table " or " Pleez " in a piece of dialog , because that 's the way they 're pronounced... is n't it ?
Yes , but a hundred years ago they were nonstandard colloquial pronunciations ; " please " was properly pronounced as two syllables , " vegetable " as four.One thing never changes , though .
Nobody will let you split an infinitive .
They always say " there 's nothing wrong with it , but other people object to it , so do n't do it .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There has never been a time when college professors did not complain about the poor language skills of their students.
So it was, so it will ever be.
The handwringing fails to take many things into account.1) A lot of language learning occurs after people leave school, as they continue to absorb written documents for purposes directly related to their careers and their lives.
If you are over sixty and you have anything you wrote in college, compare it to something you've written now.
You'll be surprised.
When my wife was in her twenties, I was disturbed by her inability to punctuate correctly, but I never said a word about it.
Over the past forty years, she simply picked it up... from context.2) The purpose of reading and writing is to communicate.
Oh, sure, it is also there to signal social status, to insure cultural continuity by making it possible for year-2010 readers to read and understand year-1776 documents, and so forth, but, primarily, it is to communicate.
In all likelihood these kids are fine at communicating between themselves using written language.
Their problem is in communicating with professors.
They will learn.
There is no single way to communicate, as they taught us in Toastmasters, the first rule is "know your audience.
"When communicating with professors... or with hiring managers via cover letters... one writes in complete sentences, with a topic sentence for every paragraph.COMMUNICATING WITH BOSSES*Brief*Bullet points*Three per topicIn emails and online postings, emoticons :)In ham radio and CB and tweets, various systems of abbreviation.
And so it goes.3) What's considered important in education changes, at a surprising rate.
I was stunned to look at a 1900s high-school arithmetic book and discover that at that time students were expected to extract cube roots with pencil and paper.
(You begin by grouping the digits in threes... the rest is a bit more complicated).
We are always shocked that our kids don't know how to diagram a sentence.
Then we go in to do a bit of substitute teaching and discover that the geometry students use axioms that we didn't use and call inorganic compounds by new names.
Still, a physics student not being able to do a simple calculation in slugs and poundals?
What's WRONG with kids these days?4) And of course language changes.
You read an old novel and wonder why they use a spelling like "Veg'table" or "Pleez" in a piece of dialog, because that's the way they're pronounced... isn't it?
Yes, but a hundred years ago they were nonstandard colloquial pronunciations; "please" was properly pronounced as two syllables, "vegetable" as four.One thing never changes, though.
Nobody will let you split an infinitive.
They always say "there's nothing wrong with it, but other people object to it, so don't do it.
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983504</id>
	<title>Re:And this is how we die</title>
	<author>Eli Gottlieb</author>
	<datestamp>1265049120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Look at the fraction of foreign students in our universities.</p></div><p>Well if it's native-born Americans and Canadians in grad school that you want, you could try paying grad students and youthful (read: 30ish) academics a living wage.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Look at the fraction of foreign students in our universities.Well if it 's native-born Americans and Canadians in grad school that you want , you could try paying grad students and youthful ( read : 30ish ) academics a living wage .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Look at the fraction of foreign students in our universities.Well if it's native-born Americans and Canadians in grad school that you want, you could try paying grad students and youthful (read: 30ish) academics a living wage.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980386</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982300</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265044440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> Presently, the majority of the students I am watching as I write this have elected not to open their book and participate. Instead they have chosen to engage themselves in useless, and frankly, inane and nonsensical conversation.</p> </div><p>I'm sorry, but what the fuck are you doing posting on Slashdot when you're supposed to be teaching?! It looks like YOU are engaging in "inane and nonsensical conversation".</p><p>And couple that with the posters who modded you insightful without calling this out...</p><p>So, yeah.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Presently , the majority of the students I am watching as I write this have elected not to open their book and participate .
Instead they have chosen to engage themselves in useless , and frankly , inane and nonsensical conversation .
I 'm sorry , but what the fuck are you doing posting on Slashdot when you 're supposed to be teaching ? !
It looks like YOU are engaging in " inane and nonsensical conversation " .And couple that with the posters who modded you insightful without calling this out...So , yeah .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> Presently, the majority of the students I am watching as I write this have elected not to open their book and participate.
Instead they have chosen to engage themselves in useless, and frankly, inane and nonsensical conversation.
I'm sorry, but what the fuck are you doing posting on Slashdot when you're supposed to be teaching?!
It looks like YOU are engaging in "inane and nonsensical conversation".And couple that with the posters who modded you insightful without calling this out...So, yeah.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981088</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983646</id>
	<title>Probably because they never learned English?</title>
	<author>highwind7777</author>
	<datestamp>1265049780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This article is useless. Has anyone doing the study looked at the actual demographics of Waterloo students? A large proportion of their student base consists of a combination of:

1) Foreign students
2) People born in Canada (for the citizenship) who grew up in Hong Kong, only to come back to Canada for high school (thus appear as local students in University)
3) People from China and Hong Kong who moved to Canada for high school, and obtaining citizenship in the process (thus attaining local student status in University)

Anybody from Toronto would be very familiar with groups 2 and 3. It should also be noted that groups 2 and 3 tend to socialize with others from the same group; this is never in English.</htmltext>
<tokenext>This article is useless .
Has anyone doing the study looked at the actual demographics of Waterloo students ?
A large proportion of their student base consists of a combination of : 1 ) Foreign students 2 ) People born in Canada ( for the citizenship ) who grew up in Hong Kong , only to come back to Canada for high school ( thus appear as local students in University ) 3 ) People from China and Hong Kong who moved to Canada for high school , and obtaining citizenship in the process ( thus attaining local student status in University ) Anybody from Toronto would be very familiar with groups 2 and 3 .
It should also be noted that groups 2 and 3 tend to socialize with others from the same group ; this is never in English .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This article is useless.
Has anyone doing the study looked at the actual demographics of Waterloo students?
A large proportion of their student base consists of a combination of:

1) Foreign students
2) People born in Canada (for the citizenship) who grew up in Hong Kong, only to come back to Canada for high school (thus appear as local students in University)
3) People from China and Hong Kong who moved to Canada for high school, and obtaining citizenship in the process (thus attaining local student status in University)

Anybody from Toronto would be very familiar with groups 2 and 3.
It should also be noted that groups 2 and 3 tend to socialize with others from the same group; this is never in English.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982410</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>hlee</author>
	<datestamp>1265044800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>While I attended university in England, one of my professors remarked my English was excellent and was better than most natives. That was almost twenty years ago!</p><p>Sad thing is my English is only what I consider good - I received a 5 (out of 7) for English in the International Baccalaureate.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>While I attended university in England , one of my professors remarked my English was excellent and was better than most natives .
That was almost twenty years ago ! Sad thing is my English is only what I consider good - I received a 5 ( out of 7 ) for English in the International Baccalaureate .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While I attended university in England, one of my professors remarked my English was excellent and was better than most natives.
That was almost twenty years ago!Sad thing is my English is only what I consider good - I received a 5 (out of 7) for English in the International Baccalaureate.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980048</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982932</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>hammeraxe</author>
	<datestamp>1265046840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>
I'm a foreigner in England and found that I know grammar and spelling better than most of my English friends. We're talking about people who passed through basic education system here, and at least half of them also through higher studies.</p></div><p>The same is true for me. I'm in my first year of undergraduate Engineering in the UK and I was told by my peers that my English is "too good" and that I sounded "posh".</p><p><div class="quote"><p>
This worries me. People shouldn't be taught the test answers, they should be taught the basics in the subject and how to learn. The whole UK education system appears to be increasingly broken, and that (even more than the Government putting us into record debt) threatens the viability of the nation for the next few decades.</p></div><p>The extent of this surprises me to be honest. University students study for the sake of their exams, not for self-improvement. It's just sad when you hear things like: "Why are you even reading this? It's not gonna be in the exam, is it?" Everyone seems to be OK with this, even the lecturers. I find it disturbing and contrary to the very concept of a university as such.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm a foreigner in England and found that I know grammar and spelling better than most of my English friends .
We 're talking about people who passed through basic education system here , and at least half of them also through higher studies.The same is true for me .
I 'm in my first year of undergraduate Engineering in the UK and I was told by my peers that my English is " too good " and that I sounded " posh " .
This worries me .
People should n't be taught the test answers , they should be taught the basics in the subject and how to learn .
The whole UK education system appears to be increasingly broken , and that ( even more than the Government putting us into record debt ) threatens the viability of the nation for the next few decades.The extent of this surprises me to be honest .
University students study for the sake of their exams , not for self-improvement .
It 's just sad when you hear things like : " Why are you even reading this ?
It 's not gon na be in the exam , is it ?
" Everyone seems to be OK with this , even the lecturers .
I find it disturbing and contrary to the very concept of a university as such .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
I'm a foreigner in England and found that I know grammar and spelling better than most of my English friends.
We're talking about people who passed through basic education system here, and at least half of them also through higher studies.The same is true for me.
I'm in my first year of undergraduate Engineering in the UK and I was told by my peers that my English is "too good" and that I sounded "posh".
This worries me.
People shouldn't be taught the test answers, they should be taught the basics in the subject and how to learn.
The whole UK education system appears to be increasingly broken, and that (even more than the Government putting us into record debt) threatens the viability of the nation for the next few decades.The extent of this surprises me to be honest.
University students study for the sake of their exams, not for self-improvement.
It's just sad when you hear things like: "Why are you even reading this?
It's not gonna be in the exam, is it?
" Everyone seems to be OK with this, even the lecturers.
I find it disturbing and contrary to the very concept of a university as such.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980048</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980178</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>vlm</author>
	<datestamp>1265035500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>So it's no shock that these kids, of which very little was ever demanded or expected of them, should suddenly find themselves failing college once the gloves come off.</p></div><p>Well, there is a simple cure for that, dumb down college and inflate college grades!  Err, wait, we're already doing that.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>So it 's no shock that these kids , of which very little was ever demanded or expected of them , should suddenly find themselves failing college once the gloves come off.Well , there is a simple cure for that , dumb down college and inflate college grades !
Err , wait , we 're already doing that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So it's no shock that these kids, of which very little was ever demanded or expected of them, should suddenly find themselves failing college once the gloves come off.Well, there is a simple cure for that, dumb down college and inflate college grades!
Err, wait, we're already doing that.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979950</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980048</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265034960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You know what is the most terrifying?<br>I'm a foreigner in England and found that I know grammar and spelling better than most of my English friends. We're talking about people who passed through basic education system here, and at least half of them also through higher studies.<br>If you ask them about grammar, apostrophe rules or spelling they will just say they never studied this. Nobody ever though them this. Then you wonder why all this is in total shambles.</p><p>Problem is that all kids are prepared to pass those stupid tests and outside them they know jack shit. There are exceptions, but general population is similar to Idiocracy one.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You know what is the most terrifying ? I 'm a foreigner in England and found that I know grammar and spelling better than most of my English friends .
We 're talking about people who passed through basic education system here , and at least half of them also through higher studies.If you ask them about grammar , apostrophe rules or spelling they will just say they never studied this .
Nobody ever though them this .
Then you wonder why all this is in total shambles.Problem is that all kids are prepared to pass those stupid tests and outside them they know jack shit .
There are exceptions , but general population is similar to Idiocracy one .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You know what is the most terrifying?I'm a foreigner in England and found that I know grammar and spelling better than most of my English friends.
We're talking about people who passed through basic education system here, and at least half of them also through higher studies.If you ask them about grammar, apostrophe rules or spelling they will just say they never studied this.
Nobody ever though them this.
Then you wonder why all this is in total shambles.Problem is that all kids are prepared to pass those stupid tests and outside them they know jack shit.
There are exceptions, but general population is similar to Idiocracy one.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979810</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979924</id>
	<title>term paper on Shakespeare</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265034360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>OMG Juliet was like, oh oh, OMG were is my bf Romeo and I was like, so GET OVER IT teh rediculus bitch.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>OMG Juliet was like , oh oh , OMG were is my bf Romeo and I was like , so GET OVER IT teh rediculus bitch .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>OMG Juliet was like, oh oh, OMG were is my bf Romeo and I was like, so GET OVER IT teh rediculus bitch.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.31004136</id>
	<title>Re:Spell Checking</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265122080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is a problem with the current generation of spell checkers.</p><p>If spell checkers displayed a definition of the suggested word next to the replacement then this would not happen.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp;</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is a problem with the current generation of spell checkers.If spell checkers displayed a definition of the suggested word next to the replacement then this would not happen .
   </tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is a problem with the current generation of spell checkers.If spell checkers displayed a definition of the suggested word next to the replacement then this would not happen.
   </sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979850</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981806</id>
	<title>Re:Spell Checking</title>
	<author>Heshler</author>
	<datestamp>1265042400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Spelling might be getting better due to the fact that in order to use the T9 rapid entry mode for texting, one must know how to spell the desired word.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Spelling might be getting better due to the fact that in order to use the T9 rapid entry mode for texting , one must know how to spell the desired word .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Spelling might be getting better due to the fact that in order to use the T9 rapid entry mode for texting, one must know how to spell the desired word.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980082</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980484</id>
	<title>'cuz' (in place of 'because')</title>
	<author>dmomo</author>
	<datestamp>1265036880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Thanks for clarifying that for me. Cuz, I would have thought you was just referring to Yo Momma's Nephew.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Thanks for clarifying that for me .
Cuz , I would have thought you was just referring to Yo Momma 's Nephew .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Thanks for clarifying that for me.
Cuz, I would have thought you was just referring to Yo Momma's Nephew.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983588</id>
	<title>Re:As a father...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265049480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Recently, we allowed our teenager to get a Facebook account, with the proviso that we remain her friends and that we have access to the account.  I reply to every post she makes abusively correcting her piss-poor grammar.</p><p>Bill</p></div><p>Jesus Christ, man. You're going to make her kill herself. Give her some space you overbearing freak.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Recently , we allowed our teenager to get a Facebook account , with the proviso that we remain her friends and that we have access to the account .
I reply to every post she makes abusively correcting her piss-poor grammar.BillJesus Christ , man .
You 're going to make her kill herself .
Give her some space you overbearing freak .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Recently, we allowed our teenager to get a Facebook account, with the proviso that we remain her friends and that we have access to the account.
I reply to every post she makes abusively correcting her piss-poor grammar.BillJesus Christ, man.
You're going to make her kill herself.
Give her some space you overbearing freak.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980568</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984118</id>
	<title>Hehe</title>
	<author>Impy the Impiuos Imp</author>
	<datestamp>1265051580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>ZOMG, from TFA:</p><blockquote><div><p>"The words 'a lot' have become one word, for everyone, as far as I can tell. 'Definitely' is always spelled with an 'a' -<b>'definitely'</b>.</p></div></blockquote><p>Hehe, the editor corrected the deliberately quoted and misspelled "definately".</p><p>Apparently editorial skills are rather poor nowadays, too.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>ZOMG , from TFA : " The words 'a lot ' have become one word , for everyone , as far as I can tell .
'Definitely ' is always spelled with an 'a ' -'definitely'.Hehe , the editor corrected the deliberately quoted and misspelled " definately " .Apparently editorial skills are rather poor nowadays , too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>ZOMG, from TFA:"The words 'a lot' have become one word, for everyone, as far as I can tell.
'Definitely' is always spelled with an 'a' -'definitely'.Hehe, the editor corrected the deliberately quoted and misspelled "definately".Apparently editorial skills are rather poor nowadays, too.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980246</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265035860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Nobody ever <b>taught</b> them this.</p> </div><p>There. Got that for you.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Nobody ever taught them this .
There. Got that for you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nobody ever taught them this.
There. Got that for you.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980048</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983520</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>rpillala</author>
	<datestamp>1265049240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No, here's the scenario.  I had a trig student some years ago who was monumentally lazy.  That was really his only observable personality trait while he was in math class.  Either that or he was simply not interested in math, in which case I wonder why he was taking one of the classes at the advanced end of the high school math spectrum.  Actually, I do know why but I think you take my meaning.  So, at registration time, I didn't recommend that he take Calculus.  Students who want to take Calculus need a certain grade and their teacher's recommendation to get there.  Failing that, they need a waiver saying they understand they are going against the teacher's recommendation so that if they do poorly, they don't come crying to us about their placement in a class that's too hard.</p><p>So dad calls me and says he feels like his son would be in a much stronger position going into calculus if I were to give him a recommendation.  Just as a confidence builder, why couldn't I just go ahead and give him the recommendation?</p><p>Some parents want the appearance of success against a high standard.  They are not necessarily interested in the standard or the actual success.</p><p>The majority of my parents are rational.  The stories I remember just aren't about them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No , here 's the scenario .
I had a trig student some years ago who was monumentally lazy .
That was really his only observable personality trait while he was in math class .
Either that or he was simply not interested in math , in which case I wonder why he was taking one of the classes at the advanced end of the high school math spectrum .
Actually , I do know why but I think you take my meaning .
So , at registration time , I did n't recommend that he take Calculus .
Students who want to take Calculus need a certain grade and their teacher 's recommendation to get there .
Failing that , they need a waiver saying they understand they are going against the teacher 's recommendation so that if they do poorly , they do n't come crying to us about their placement in a class that 's too hard.So dad calls me and says he feels like his son would be in a much stronger position going into calculus if I were to give him a recommendation .
Just as a confidence builder , why could n't I just go ahead and give him the recommendation ? Some parents want the appearance of success against a high standard .
They are not necessarily interested in the standard or the actual success.The majority of my parents are rational .
The stories I remember just are n't about them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, here's the scenario.
I had a trig student some years ago who was monumentally lazy.
That was really his only observable personality trait while he was in math class.
Either that or he was simply not interested in math, in which case I wonder why he was taking one of the classes at the advanced end of the high school math spectrum.
Actually, I do know why but I think you take my meaning.
So, at registration time, I didn't recommend that he take Calculus.
Students who want to take Calculus need a certain grade and their teacher's recommendation to get there.
Failing that, they need a waiver saying they understand they are going against the teacher's recommendation so that if they do poorly, they don't come crying to us about their placement in a class that's too hard.So dad calls me and says he feels like his son would be in a much stronger position going into calculus if I were to give him a recommendation.
Just as a confidence builder, why couldn't I just go ahead and give him the recommendation?Some parents want the appearance of success against a high standard.
They are not necessarily interested in the standard or the actual success.The majority of my parents are rational.
The stories I remember just aren't about them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980504</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30985340</id>
	<title>Re:As a father...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265056800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Good for you, keeping the concept of "this stuff matters" in your kid's face--out in the wilderness we devoutly wish there were more parents like you.</p><p>FYI, too much posting on your daughter's page and she may set up another, NFP page, as the daughter of a friend did. This girl had one "official" page that her dad knew about, and one with the hot stuff like the pictures of her trotting about topless at a pool party. NFP translation: Not For Parents.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Good for you , keeping the concept of " this stuff matters " in your kid 's face--out in the wilderness we devoutly wish there were more parents like you.FYI , too much posting on your daughter 's page and she may set up another , NFP page , as the daughter of a friend did .
This girl had one " official " page that her dad knew about , and one with the hot stuff like the pictures of her trotting about topless at a pool party .
NFP translation : Not For Parents .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Good for you, keeping the concept of "this stuff matters" in your kid's face--out in the wilderness we devoutly wish there were more parents like you.FYI, too much posting on your daughter's page and she may set up another, NFP page, as the daughter of a friend did.
This girl had one "official" page that her dad knew about, and one with the hot stuff like the pictures of her trotting about topless at a pool party.
NFP translation: Not For Parents.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980568</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981040</id>
	<title>Re:Exaggerated much?</title>
	<author>Attila Dimedici</author>
	<datestamp>1265039460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You seem to have a misunderstanding of what the article meant when it said "Academic papers". It was not referring to papers submitted to a journal for publication. It was referring to papers being submitted for a grade (there may be some indication that these papers were theoretically supposed to be carefully researched, as opposed to a paper whose purpose was merely to express the student's opinion). The implication is that one would think that by the time that students get to university, they would be taught to follow formal grammatical rules for academic papers.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You seem to have a misunderstanding of what the article meant when it said " Academic papers " .
It was not referring to papers submitted to a journal for publication .
It was referring to papers being submitted for a grade ( there may be some indication that these papers were theoretically supposed to be carefully researched , as opposed to a paper whose purpose was merely to express the student 's opinion ) .
The implication is that one would think that by the time that students get to university , they would be taught to follow formal grammatical rules for academic papers .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You seem to have a misunderstanding of what the article meant when it said "Academic papers".
It was not referring to papers submitted to a journal for publication.
It was referring to papers being submitted for a grade (there may be some indication that these papers were theoretically supposed to be carefully researched, as opposed to a paper whose purpose was merely to express the student's opinion).
The implication is that one would think that by the time that students get to university, they would be taught to follow formal grammatical rules for academic papers.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980298</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30987122</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe its the school thats failing</title>
	<author>R.Mo\_Robert</author>
	<datestamp>1265019360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Somebody needs to mod the parent up. (And, no, I'm not lazy--I'm a linguist, and we care about studying the way language actually works, not the way a handful of people think it "should.")</p><p>Language <i>does</i> change. Every generation interprets language a bit differently from the previous generation, and over time these changes add up. It's why we speak Modern English instead of Middle or Old, and it's why we have English, German, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, Frisian, Scots, Icelandic, and other Germanic languages instead of some sort of modern Proto-Germanic. It's why we have Germanic, Italic, Hellenic, and other Indo-European languages instead of Proto-Indo-European. (You might be able to take this farther, a la Nostradic Hypothesis, but I think the evidence is sketchy for connecting most major language families.) In any case, it's clear: language changes.</p><p>"Standard" varieties (which are somewhat artificial to begin with--they're partly just an arbitrary list of rules people have proposed of "do's" and "don'ts"), however, are usually much slower to change. For example, until the last century, speakers of Chinese (which today is actually a diverse collection of varieties that are often called both languages and dialects) spoke in their vernacular (Mandarin, Cantonese, etc.) but wrote in the standard language--Classical Chinese. It took centuries for the standard written language to change; they were almost completely different by this point. We're obviously nowhere close to this point with English, but I think it illustrates the point that language does change, and that it's neither good or bad. It just happens. For languages with standardized writing, the written language is often much slower to change, but it usually happens eventually--or, alternatively, you wind up with two essentially different languages. (I'm not saying this is bad, either, but I'm just noting an observation.) There is nothing to fear.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Somebody needs to mod the parent up .
( And , no , I 'm not lazy--I 'm a linguist , and we care about studying the way language actually works , not the way a handful of people think it " should .
" ) Language does change .
Every generation interprets language a bit differently from the previous generation , and over time these changes add up .
It 's why we speak Modern English instead of Middle or Old , and it 's why we have English , German , Norwegian , Swedish , Danish , Frisian , Scots , Icelandic , and other Germanic languages instead of some sort of modern Proto-Germanic .
It 's why we have Germanic , Italic , Hellenic , and other Indo-European languages instead of Proto-Indo-European .
( You might be able to take this farther , a la Nostradic Hypothesis , but I think the evidence is sketchy for connecting most major language families .
) In any case , it 's clear : language changes .
" Standard " varieties ( which are somewhat artificial to begin with--they 're partly just an arbitrary list of rules people have proposed of " do 's " and " don'ts " ) , however , are usually much slower to change .
For example , until the last century , speakers of Chinese ( which today is actually a diverse collection of varieties that are often called both languages and dialects ) spoke in their vernacular ( Mandarin , Cantonese , etc .
) but wrote in the standard language--Classical Chinese .
It took centuries for the standard written language to change ; they were almost completely different by this point .
We 're obviously nowhere close to this point with English , but I think it illustrates the point that language does change , and that it 's neither good or bad .
It just happens .
For languages with standardized writing , the written language is often much slower to change , but it usually happens eventually--or , alternatively , you wind up with two essentially different languages .
( I 'm not saying this is bad , either , but I 'm just noting an observation .
) There is nothing to fear .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Somebody needs to mod the parent up.
(And, no, I'm not lazy--I'm a linguist, and we care about studying the way language actually works, not the way a handful of people think it "should.
")Language does change.
Every generation interprets language a bit differently from the previous generation, and over time these changes add up.
It's why we speak Modern English instead of Middle or Old, and it's why we have English, German, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, Frisian, Scots, Icelandic, and other Germanic languages instead of some sort of modern Proto-Germanic.
It's why we have Germanic, Italic, Hellenic, and other Indo-European languages instead of Proto-Indo-European.
(You might be able to take this farther, a la Nostradic Hypothesis, but I think the evidence is sketchy for connecting most major language families.
) In any case, it's clear: language changes.
"Standard" varieties (which are somewhat artificial to begin with--they're partly just an arbitrary list of rules people have proposed of "do's" and "don'ts"), however, are usually much slower to change.
For example, until the last century, speakers of Chinese (which today is actually a diverse collection of varieties that are often called both languages and dialects) spoke in their vernacular (Mandarin, Cantonese, etc.
) but wrote in the standard language--Classical Chinese.
It took centuries for the standard written language to change; they were almost completely different by this point.
We're obviously nowhere close to this point with English, but I think it illustrates the point that language does change, and that it's neither good or bad.
It just happens.
For languages with standardized writing, the written language is often much slower to change, but it usually happens eventually--or, alternatively, you wind up with two essentially different languages.
(I'm not saying this is bad, either, but I'm just noting an observation.
) There is nothing to fear.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980058</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980334</id>
	<title>Admissions Tests</title>
	<author>mdarksbane</author>
	<datestamp>1265036280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Sounds to me like these universities need to bump their admissions standards a bit. Do they still require essays even?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Sounds to me like these universities need to bump their admissions standards a bit .
Do they still require essays even ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Sounds to me like these universities need to bump their admissions standards a bit.
Do they still require essays even?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980908</id>
	<title>tfa title</title>
	<author>proxy318</author>
	<datestamp>1265038860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The title claims students are failing because of twitter, but almost the entire article claims that it's because they're not teaching grammar in schools. Way to understand what you're writing, numbnuts.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The title claims students are failing because of twitter , but almost the entire article claims that it 's because they 're not teaching grammar in schools .
Way to understand what you 're writing , numbnuts .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The title claims students are failing because of twitter, but almost the entire article claims that it's because they're not teaching grammar in schools.
Way to understand what you're writing, numbnuts.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979882</id>
	<title>Re:And this is how we die</title>
	<author>sa666\_666</author>
	<datestamp>1265034180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Actually, this article is talking about universities in Canada, not the US.  Although I feel the same way you do, and I'm embarrassed to be a Canadian after reading this.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Actually , this article is talking about universities in Canada , not the US .
Although I feel the same way you do , and I 'm embarrassed to be a Canadian after reading this .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Actually, this article is talking about universities in Canada, not the US.
Although I feel the same way you do, and I'm embarrassed to be a Canadian after reading this.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979816</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981490</id>
	<title>Holy paragraph explosion!</title>
	<author>noidentity</author>
	<datestamp>1265041200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That article has 43 paragraphs. Almost every sentence is in its own paragraph. What happened to putting related sentences together? Examples:</p><blockquote><div><p>At Simon Fraser University in British Columbia, one in 10 new students are not qualified to take the mandatory writing courses required for graduation.

</p><p>That 10 per cent must take so-called "foundational" writing courses first.

</p><p>Simon Fraser is reviewing its entrance requirements for English language.

</p><p>[...]

</p><p>Then he's reduced to teaching basic grammar to them himself.

</p><p>He says this has been going on now for the 20 years he's taught college and university in B.C. and Ontario-only the mistakes have changed.

</p><p>He too blames poor - or no - grammar instruction in lower schools.</p></div>

</blockquote><p>Also, I already see a grammatical error:

</p><p>"one in 10 new students are not qualified"  ("one" is singular)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>That article has 43 paragraphs .
Almost every sentence is in its own paragraph .
What happened to putting related sentences together ?
Examples : At Simon Fraser University in British Columbia , one in 10 new students are not qualified to take the mandatory writing courses required for graduation .
That 10 per cent must take so-called " foundational " writing courses first .
Simon Fraser is reviewing its entrance requirements for English language .
[ ... ] Then he 's reduced to teaching basic grammar to them himself .
He says this has been going on now for the 20 years he 's taught college and university in B.C .
and Ontario-only the mistakes have changed .
He too blames poor - or no - grammar instruction in lower schools .
Also , I already see a grammatical error : " one in 10 new students are not qualified " ( " one " is singular )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That article has 43 paragraphs.
Almost every sentence is in its own paragraph.
What happened to putting related sentences together?
Examples:At Simon Fraser University in British Columbia, one in 10 new students are not qualified to take the mandatory writing courses required for graduation.
That 10 per cent must take so-called "foundational" writing courses first.
Simon Fraser is reviewing its entrance requirements for English language.
[...]

Then he's reduced to teaching basic grammar to them himself.
He says this has been going on now for the 20 years he's taught college and university in B.C.
and Ontario-only the mistakes have changed.
He too blames poor - or no - grammar instruction in lower schools.
Also, I already see a grammatical error:

"one in 10 new students are not qualified"  ("one" is singular)
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980392</id>
	<title>sprinkle parmesan?</title>
	<author>outsider007</author>
	<datestamp>1265036460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>One professor says that students 'think commas are sort of like parmesan cheese that you sprinkle on your words.'</i></p><p>I guess on a professor's salary they can only afford the processed stuff.<br>In my house we freshly grate our commas directly over our words.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>One professor says that students 'think commas are sort of like parmesan cheese that you sprinkle on your words .
'I guess on a professor 's salary they can only afford the processed stuff.In my house we freshly grate our commas directly over our words .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One professor says that students 'think commas are sort of like parmesan cheese that you sprinkle on your words.
'I guess on a professor's salary they can only afford the processed stuff.In my house we freshly grate our commas directly over our words.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984284</id>
	<title>Re:A few thoughts from a professional English teac</title>
	<author>outlander</author>
	<datestamp>1265052300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I did the same thing, and am now in technology b/c I couldn't afford to live on the salary universities offer to teach people to write.</p><p>Fortunately I also have enough math to be useful.....a lot of my classmates didn't have that as a fallback and are starving.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I did the same thing , and am now in technology b/c I could n't afford to live on the salary universities offer to teach people to write.Fortunately I also have enough math to be useful.....a lot of my classmates did n't have that as a fallback and are starving .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I did the same thing, and am now in technology b/c I couldn't afford to live on the salary universities offer to teach people to write.Fortunately I also have enough math to be useful.....a lot of my classmates didn't have that as a fallback and are starving.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981646</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980942</id>
	<title>Not a new thing</title>
	<author>brucmack</author>
	<datestamp>1265039040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is definitely not a new thing. The difficulties many of my classmates had in writing reports was one of the first things I noticed when I started at Waterloo in 2000.</p><p>The blame should almost certainly be placed at the high school level, as that's where heavy-duty grammar teaching should be taking place. Thankfully my high school English courses included this.</p><p>The high school system in Ontario has changed since I went through it, but when I started at Waterloo there was definitely a huge difference in the difficulty level of different high schools. I remember being amazed to hear some of my classmates comparing how many courses they had scored 100\% in - apparently it was normal at their schools for there to be "bonus marks" on tests, such that their final grades were often rounded down to 100\%. Waterloo weighted the grades internally when processing admissions so thankfully this wasn't a problem for the rest of us.</p><p>I find it funny that a professor in the article mentions the "a lot" vs. "alot" issue. One of the things we learned in high school English was that "a lot" is a piece of property, not a replacement for "much" or "many" (and "due to" means "owed to", not "because of").</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is definitely not a new thing .
The difficulties many of my classmates had in writing reports was one of the first things I noticed when I started at Waterloo in 2000.The blame should almost certainly be placed at the high school level , as that 's where heavy-duty grammar teaching should be taking place .
Thankfully my high school English courses included this.The high school system in Ontario has changed since I went through it , but when I started at Waterloo there was definitely a huge difference in the difficulty level of different high schools .
I remember being amazed to hear some of my classmates comparing how many courses they had scored 100 \ % in - apparently it was normal at their schools for there to be " bonus marks " on tests , such that their final grades were often rounded down to 100 \ % .
Waterloo weighted the grades internally when processing admissions so thankfully this was n't a problem for the rest of us.I find it funny that a professor in the article mentions the " a lot " vs. " alot " issue .
One of the things we learned in high school English was that " a lot " is a piece of property , not a replacement for " much " or " many " ( and " due to " means " owed to " , not " because of " ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is definitely not a new thing.
The difficulties many of my classmates had in writing reports was one of the first things I noticed when I started at Waterloo in 2000.The blame should almost certainly be placed at the high school level, as that's where heavy-duty grammar teaching should be taking place.
Thankfully my high school English courses included this.The high school system in Ontario has changed since I went through it, but when I started at Waterloo there was definitely a huge difference in the difficulty level of different high schools.
I remember being amazed to hear some of my classmates comparing how many courses they had scored 100\% in - apparently it was normal at their schools for there to be "bonus marks" on tests, such that their final grades were often rounded down to 100\%.
Waterloo weighted the grades internally when processing admissions so thankfully this wasn't a problem for the rest of us.I find it funny that a professor in the article mentions the "a lot" vs. "alot" issue.
One of the things we learned in high school English was that "a lot" is a piece of property, not a replacement for "much" or "many" (and "due to" means "owed to", not "because of").</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981720</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe its the school thats failing</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265042100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This would only be true if the modernization of the language had some perceived benefit at the academic level.</p><p>I do not complain about poor grammar on the internet-- although I used to.</p><p>The point of tall our writing is to communicate. Depending on what you wish to communicate, the modern evolutions of language are very useful.  For example, take the question below:</p><p>"Would you please join me in watching a movie at eight o'clock 'post meridiem'?"</p><p>The question is highly personal, affecting only a few people.  Removing information from this sentence will likely have little effect on it's meaning because so much of it may be infered from knowledge of the speaker / writer or the context.</p><p>If we were instead to write the phrase below:</p><p>"Movie @ 8?"</p><p>All the information that is lost can be assumed. We can assume that our audience is familiar with the "@".  Similarly, it may be past eight o'clock in the morning.  Even if it is not, few movies play at that hour.  The word movie may even be replaced by a common slang that both parties understand.</p><p>The rules for writing out numbers need not apply because there is not greater structure to worry about.  The reader is unlikely to be fatigued by numbers, you need not worry about balancing white space, or breaking the flow of the reader by introducing said number.</p><p>In short, this sentence is concise.  It breaks formality, but it is not a formal sentence so this little matters.</p><p>Now take a sentence from popular philosophy:</p><p>"A man's thinking goes on within his consciousness in a seclusion in comparison with which any physical seclusion is an exhibition to public view."</p><p>There are other ways to say this to be sure, but few will retain the elegance of the above statement.  Moreover, this sentence appears within a much greater textual context.  It is specific and written for a particular purpose and emphasis.</p><p>Other examples could be found in scientific journals.  Simply jotting down the general idea behind a theory or experiment would result in much confusion.  The sentences must be crafted carefully to present the argument in a clear manner, unambiguous in meaning and scope.</p><p>The failing of modern students and education is the fact that these two forms of communication are not considered separate.</p><p>Even this post is less formal than that of a academic text.  I won't spell check, check for comma misuse, use of rhythm, pacing, dramatic emphasis, parallelism, flow or continuity.  It simply is too much work for a<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/. post.</p><p>Writing to persuade or to inform is not the same as asking a friend out for beer or posting on the internet.  "Texting" is more akin to speaking than to writing, and it has long been custom to speak much differently than we write.</p><p>The disaster that is befalling us is not that modern language; the disaster is modern language is ubiquitous.  Complex topics will not be able to be discussed in honest language if the trend continues.  Complex ideas will fail to be communicated as our language loses it's accuracy in written form.  This is the danger.</p><p>I do not care if my coworkers ask me out for a beer with a jumble of numbers and letters.  I will care when arguments over morals, ethics and economics are dominated by a language which cannot accurately describe the ideals which pin them to this earth.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This would only be true if the modernization of the language had some perceived benefit at the academic level.I do not complain about poor grammar on the internet-- although I used to.The point of tall our writing is to communicate .
Depending on what you wish to communicate , the modern evolutions of language are very useful .
For example , take the question below : " Would you please join me in watching a movie at eight o'clock 'post meridiem ' ?
" The question is highly personal , affecting only a few people .
Removing information from this sentence will likely have little effect on it 's meaning because so much of it may be infered from knowledge of the speaker / writer or the context.If we were instead to write the phrase below : " Movie @ 8 ?
" All the information that is lost can be assumed .
We can assume that our audience is familiar with the " @ " .
Similarly , it may be past eight o'clock in the morning .
Even if it is not , few movies play at that hour .
The word movie may even be replaced by a common slang that both parties understand.The rules for writing out numbers need not apply because there is not greater structure to worry about .
The reader is unlikely to be fatigued by numbers , you need not worry about balancing white space , or breaking the flow of the reader by introducing said number.In short , this sentence is concise .
It breaks formality , but it is not a formal sentence so this little matters.Now take a sentence from popular philosophy : " A man 's thinking goes on within his consciousness in a seclusion in comparison with which any physical seclusion is an exhibition to public view .
" There are other ways to say this to be sure , but few will retain the elegance of the above statement .
Moreover , this sentence appears within a much greater textual context .
It is specific and written for a particular purpose and emphasis.Other examples could be found in scientific journals .
Simply jotting down the general idea behind a theory or experiment would result in much confusion .
The sentences must be crafted carefully to present the argument in a clear manner , unambiguous in meaning and scope.The failing of modern students and education is the fact that these two forms of communication are not considered separate.Even this post is less formal than that of a academic text .
I wo n't spell check , check for comma misuse , use of rhythm , pacing , dramatic emphasis , parallelism , flow or continuity .
It simply is too much work for a / .
post.Writing to persuade or to inform is not the same as asking a friend out for beer or posting on the internet .
" Texting " is more akin to speaking than to writing , and it has long been custom to speak much differently than we write.The disaster that is befalling us is not that modern language ; the disaster is modern language is ubiquitous .
Complex topics will not be able to be discussed in honest language if the trend continues .
Complex ideas will fail to be communicated as our language loses it 's accuracy in written form .
This is the danger.I do not care if my coworkers ask me out for a beer with a jumble of numbers and letters .
I will care when arguments over morals , ethics and economics are dominated by a language which can not accurately describe the ideals which pin them to this earth .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This would only be true if the modernization of the language had some perceived benefit at the academic level.I do not complain about poor grammar on the internet-- although I used to.The point of tall our writing is to communicate.
Depending on what you wish to communicate, the modern evolutions of language are very useful.
For example, take the question below:"Would you please join me in watching a movie at eight o'clock 'post meridiem'?
"The question is highly personal, affecting only a few people.
Removing information from this sentence will likely have little effect on it's meaning because so much of it may be infered from knowledge of the speaker / writer or the context.If we were instead to write the phrase below:"Movie @ 8?
"All the information that is lost can be assumed.
We can assume that our audience is familiar with the "@".
Similarly, it may be past eight o'clock in the morning.
Even if it is not, few movies play at that hour.
The word movie may even be replaced by a common slang that both parties understand.The rules for writing out numbers need not apply because there is not greater structure to worry about.
The reader is unlikely to be fatigued by numbers, you need not worry about balancing white space, or breaking the flow of the reader by introducing said number.In short, this sentence is concise.
It breaks formality, but it is not a formal sentence so this little matters.Now take a sentence from popular philosophy:"A man's thinking goes on within his consciousness in a seclusion in comparison with which any physical seclusion is an exhibition to public view.
"There are other ways to say this to be sure, but few will retain the elegance of the above statement.
Moreover, this sentence appears within a much greater textual context.
It is specific and written for a particular purpose and emphasis.Other examples could be found in scientific journals.
Simply jotting down the general idea behind a theory or experiment would result in much confusion.
The sentences must be crafted carefully to present the argument in a clear manner, unambiguous in meaning and scope.The failing of modern students and education is the fact that these two forms of communication are not considered separate.Even this post is less formal than that of a academic text.
I won't spell check, check for comma misuse, use of rhythm, pacing, dramatic emphasis, parallelism, flow or continuity.
It simply is too much work for a /.
post.Writing to persuade or to inform is not the same as asking a friend out for beer or posting on the internet.
"Texting" is more akin to speaking than to writing, and it has long been custom to speak much differently than we write.The disaster that is befalling us is not that modern language; the disaster is modern language is ubiquitous.
Complex topics will not be able to be discussed in honest language if the trend continues.
Complex ideas will fail to be communicated as our language loses it's accuracy in written form.
This is the danger.I do not care if my coworkers ask me out for a beer with a jumble of numbers and letters.
I will care when arguments over morals, ethics and economics are dominated by a language which cannot accurately describe the ideals which pin them to this earth.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980058</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980300</id>
	<title>Not only English</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265036100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext> I teach a 3rd year OS course. It is mostly concepts (scheduling, concurrency, etc). The only math that has to be done in the exam is calculating the average of 5 or 6 numbers all less than 30 (e.g. average waiting time for a set of process bursts). There are no calculators allowed on the exam.  A significant fraction of the students are not capable of adding 5 2 digit numbers and dividing by 5 and getting the right number.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I teach a 3rd year OS course .
It is mostly concepts ( scheduling , concurrency , etc ) .
The only math that has to be done in the exam is calculating the average of 5 or 6 numbers all less than 30 ( e.g .
average waiting time for a set of process bursts ) .
There are no calculators allowed on the exam .
A significant fraction of the students are not capable of adding 5 2 digit numbers and dividing by 5 and getting the right number .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> I teach a 3rd year OS course.
It is mostly concepts (scheduling, concurrency, etc).
The only math that has to be done in the exam is calculating the average of 5 or 6 numbers all less than 30 (e.g.
average waiting time for a set of process bursts).
There are no calculators allowed on the exam.
A significant fraction of the students are not capable of adding 5 2 digit numbers and dividing by 5 and getting the right number.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979868</id>
	<title>Oxford comma?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265034180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial\_comma</p><p>AKA the Oxford Comma.</p><p>It actually demonstrates grammar. Oh noo! Stop the grammarians!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial \ _commaAKA the Oxford Comma.It actually demonstrates grammar .
Oh noo !
Stop the grammarians !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial\_commaAKA the Oxford Comma.It actually demonstrates grammar.
Oh noo!
Stop the grammarians!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980056</id>
	<title>Schools failing to insipre students</title>
	<author>lordlod</author>
	<datestamp>1265035020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Australia recently released rankings of all our schools.
</p><p>
Chifley College Dunheved Campus was the worst ranked school in Sydney.
</p><p>

<a href="http://media.crikey.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/chifley.jpg" title="crikey.com.au" rel="nofollow">As you can see, the school isn't very inspiring</a> [crikey.com.au]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Australia recently released rankings of all our schools .
Chifley College Dunheved Campus was the worst ranked school in Sydney .
As you can see , the school is n't very inspiring [ crikey.com.au ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Australia recently released rankings of all our schools.
Chifley College Dunheved Campus was the worst ranked school in Sydney.
As you can see, the school isn't very inspiring [crikey.com.au]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981346</id>
	<title>The death of professional editing...</title>
	<author>phorm</author>
	<datestamp>1265040720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I can't say that I'm overly surprised that proper use of English is suffering these days. It's pretty sad when even professional news outlets don't seem to bother to check their <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk\_news/scotland/north\_east/8491509.stm" title="bbc.co.uk" rel="nofollow">spelling</a> [bbc.co.uk] or grammar. What does it mean to be "disbaled?"</p><p>It's sad to see mistakes that even a spell-checker should have been able to catch, coming from what should be a fairly professional news source.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I ca n't say that I 'm overly surprised that proper use of English is suffering these days .
It 's pretty sad when even professional news outlets do n't seem to bother to check their spelling [ bbc.co.uk ] or grammar .
What does it mean to be " disbaled ?
" It 's sad to see mistakes that even a spell-checker should have been able to catch , coming from what should be a fairly professional news source .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can't say that I'm overly surprised that proper use of English is suffering these days.
It's pretty sad when even professional news outlets don't seem to bother to check their spelling [bbc.co.uk] or grammar.
What does it mean to be "disbaled?
"It's sad to see mistakes that even a spell-checker should have been able to catch, coming from what should be a fairly professional news source.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981216</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>L4t3r4lu5</author>
	<datestamp>1265040180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>You think that's bad? My girlfriend was never taught how to reverse bay park a car because they never put it on the test. There were no car parks on the test route.<br> <br>They also never tell you how to correct a skid (pumping the breaks is great if you're going in a straight line), how to drive in icy conditions (if you learn in summer), or motorway (highway) driving.<br> <br>Yeah, you read that right. They don't teach you how to drive on the fastest roads in the country. They just hope you "scale up" well.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You think that 's bad ?
My girlfriend was never taught how to reverse bay park a car because they never put it on the test .
There were no car parks on the test route .
They also never tell you how to correct a skid ( pumping the breaks is great if you 're going in a straight line ) , how to drive in icy conditions ( if you learn in summer ) , or motorway ( highway ) driving .
Yeah , you read that right .
They do n't teach you how to drive on the fastest roads in the country .
They just hope you " scale up " well .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You think that's bad?
My girlfriend was never taught how to reverse bay park a car because they never put it on the test.
There were no car parks on the test route.
They also never tell you how to correct a skid (pumping the breaks is great if you're going in a straight line), how to drive in icy conditions (if you learn in summer), or motorway (highway) driving.
Yeah, you read that right.
They don't teach you how to drive on the fastest roads in the country.
They just hope you "scale up" well.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980220</id>
	<title>Rarely is the questioned asked</title>
	<author>atomicxblue</author>
	<datestamp>1265035680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>Is our children learning?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Is our children learning ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is our children learning?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983596</id>
	<title>Re:Relevant</title>
	<author>Eli Gottlieb</author>
	<datestamp>1265049540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Was this student perhaps named "Summer Glau"?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Was this student perhaps named " Summer Glau " ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Was this student perhaps named "Summer Glau"?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979830</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982632</id>
	<title>Exit Writing Examinations</title>
	<author>cashman73</author>
	<datestamp>1265045640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The school I received my B.S. degree (<a href="http://www.odu.edu/" title="odu.edu">Old Dominion University</a> [odu.edu], Norfolk, Virginia) required all undergraduate students to take an <a href="http://uc.odu.edu/writingcenter/facts/exitexam.shtml" title="odu.edu">exit writing examination</a> [odu.edu] prior to graduation. They still do this. And the scary fact is that at least half of all graduates fail the test the first time they take it, so the school suggests students take the test well before they intend to graduate. As for me, I took the test a week before I was set to graduate, and everyone mocked me saying that I was going to fail it and I would have to take it during the summer. Instead, I found it ridiculously easy, and passed the first time around.<p>

Didn't have to take a writing examination prior to getting my Ph.D. (different school), although I did have to write a 200-page dissertation. I think schools generally expect students to be able to write by the time they get there. Still, I've seen lots of students in graduate school with pretty poor grammar skills; although this problem is more due to the fact that there are so many students in graduate school where English is not their first language.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The school I received my B.S .
degree ( Old Dominion University [ odu.edu ] , Norfolk , Virginia ) required all undergraduate students to take an exit writing examination [ odu.edu ] prior to graduation .
They still do this .
And the scary fact is that at least half of all graduates fail the test the first time they take it , so the school suggests students take the test well before they intend to graduate .
As for me , I took the test a week before I was set to graduate , and everyone mocked me saying that I was going to fail it and I would have to take it during the summer .
Instead , I found it ridiculously easy , and passed the first time around .
Did n't have to take a writing examination prior to getting my Ph.D. ( different school ) , although I did have to write a 200-page dissertation .
I think schools generally expect students to be able to write by the time they get there .
Still , I 've seen lots of students in graduate school with pretty poor grammar skills ; although this problem is more due to the fact that there are so many students in graduate school where English is not their first language .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The school I received my B.S.
degree (Old Dominion University [odu.edu], Norfolk, Virginia) required all undergraduate students to take an exit writing examination [odu.edu] prior to graduation.
They still do this.
And the scary fact is that at least half of all graduates fail the test the first time they take it, so the school suggests students take the test well before they intend to graduate.
As for me, I took the test a week before I was set to graduate, and everyone mocked me saying that I was going to fail it and I would have to take it during the summer.
Instead, I found it ridiculously easy, and passed the first time around.
Didn't have to take a writing examination prior to getting my Ph.D. (different school), although I did have to write a 200-page dissertation.
I think schools generally expect students to be able to write by the time they get there.
Still, I've seen lots of students in graduate school with pretty poor grammar skills; although this problem is more due to the fact that there are so many students in graduate school where English is not their first language.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983710</id>
	<title>Re:Foreign students at University of Waterloo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265050080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I am a graduate of UW, and this poster is absolutely, 100\% correct. Although, I think a lot of the students he is talking about were actually FOBs coming from Toronto, not "foreign" students. A</htmltext>
<tokenext>I am a graduate of UW , and this poster is absolutely , 100 \ % correct .
Although , I think a lot of the students he is talking about were actually FOBs coming from Toronto , not " foreign " students .
A</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am a graduate of UW, and this poster is absolutely, 100\% correct.
Although, I think a lot of the students he is talking about were actually FOBs coming from Toronto, not "foreign" students.
A</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980310</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982826</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265046480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>They idolize their own ignorance</p></div><p>That sums up the entire rap culture pretty accurately.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>They idolize their own ignoranceThat sums up the entire rap culture pretty accurately .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>They idolize their own ignoranceThat sums up the entire rap culture pretty accurately.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981088</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980924</id>
	<title>Re:And this is how we die</title>
	<author>twostix</author>
	<datestamp>1265038920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Good teachers were purged in the 80's then again in the early 90's when the last hold outs from the old guard (pre baby boomer) who believed that their profession was about teaching and not about cultural and social indoctrination were forced into retirement, sidelined or outright maligned.</p><p>It's all very boring.  Good normal people won't go in en-masse because the teaching profession is chock full of psuedo-science and slightly unhinged useful idiots. They figure that out during Uni and get the hell out.  No normal person wants to go into a classroom full of children 5 days a week completely disarmed and without any sort of authority and real disciplinary regime to back them up ("contracts" I LOLed as a teenager).   Anybody who actually does attempt to teach outside of the mandated and bizarre "whole child" policy guidelines are very unpopular individuals and go no where in a hurry.</p><p>My most memorable teachers were the ones who would bark at the trouble makers (me included) and mean it.  They no longer exist, even the most conservative private schools don't do punitive discipline anymore.</p><p>Allegedly a child can do no wrong.</p><p>Weep for the west.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Good teachers were purged in the 80 's then again in the early 90 's when the last hold outs from the old guard ( pre baby boomer ) who believed that their profession was about teaching and not about cultural and social indoctrination were forced into retirement , sidelined or outright maligned.It 's all very boring .
Good normal people wo n't go in en-masse because the teaching profession is chock full of psuedo-science and slightly unhinged useful idiots .
They figure that out during Uni and get the hell out .
No normal person wants to go into a classroom full of children 5 days a week completely disarmed and without any sort of authority and real disciplinary regime to back them up ( " contracts " I LOLed as a teenager ) .
Anybody who actually does attempt to teach outside of the mandated and bizarre " whole child " policy guidelines are very unpopular individuals and go no where in a hurry.My most memorable teachers were the ones who would bark at the trouble makers ( me included ) and mean it .
They no longer exist , even the most conservative private schools do n't do punitive discipline anymore.Allegedly a child can do no wrong.Weep for the west .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Good teachers were purged in the 80's then again in the early 90's when the last hold outs from the old guard (pre baby boomer) who believed that their profession was about teaching and not about cultural and social indoctrination were forced into retirement, sidelined or outright maligned.It's all very boring.
Good normal people won't go in en-masse because the teaching profession is chock full of psuedo-science and slightly unhinged useful idiots.
They figure that out during Uni and get the hell out.
No normal person wants to go into a classroom full of children 5 days a week completely disarmed and without any sort of authority and real disciplinary regime to back them up ("contracts" I LOLed as a teenager).
Anybody who actually does attempt to teach outside of the mandated and bizarre "whole child" policy guidelines are very unpopular individuals and go no where in a hurry.My most memorable teachers were the ones who would bark at the trouble makers (me included) and mean it.
They no longer exist, even the most conservative private schools don't do punitive discipline anymore.Allegedly a child can do no wrong.Weep for the west.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980148</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980504</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265036940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So parents apply pressure to make schools do the very thing they (allegedly) exist to do.  Upon doing so they find out that the school has been not teaching their children literacy and numeracy but instead hazing their childrens minds with this years "Social Indoctrination: Experiment #5165" and go ballistic when their children fail academic tests...</p><p>What's the problem with the parents again? Oh let me guess your wife doesn't want to teach the boring stuff, like rote times table memorization, etc. Just the fun "social" stuff because she got into the job to "mold young minds" and not drill boring mathematical rules into them.</p><p>If the school doesn't teach children enough to pass these so called tough academic tests, then what the hell do children sit in the bulding for 6 hours a day for? And how in any possible reality is that the parents fault (who are allegedly pushing for tougher standards for their kids).</p><p>Teachers really do come up with some BS excuses - Parents pushing for tougher standards and demanding improvements in grades when their kids fail is apparently the problem with education.  Not the school and teacher whose sole job it is to teach the children.</p><p>Right.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So parents apply pressure to make schools do the very thing they ( allegedly ) exist to do .
Upon doing so they find out that the school has been not teaching their children literacy and numeracy but instead hazing their childrens minds with this years " Social Indoctrination : Experiment # 5165 " and go ballistic when their children fail academic tests...What 's the problem with the parents again ?
Oh let me guess your wife does n't want to teach the boring stuff , like rote times table memorization , etc .
Just the fun " social " stuff because she got into the job to " mold young minds " and not drill boring mathematical rules into them.If the school does n't teach children enough to pass these so called tough academic tests , then what the hell do children sit in the bulding for 6 hours a day for ?
And how in any possible reality is that the parents fault ( who are allegedly pushing for tougher standards for their kids ) .Teachers really do come up with some BS excuses - Parents pushing for tougher standards and demanding improvements in grades when their kids fail is apparently the problem with education .
Not the school and teacher whose sole job it is to teach the children.Right .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So parents apply pressure to make schools do the very thing they (allegedly) exist to do.
Upon doing so they find out that the school has been not teaching their children literacy and numeracy but instead hazing their childrens minds with this years "Social Indoctrination: Experiment #5165" and go ballistic when their children fail academic tests...What's the problem with the parents again?
Oh let me guess your wife doesn't want to teach the boring stuff, like rote times table memorization, etc.
Just the fun "social" stuff because she got into the job to "mold young minds" and not drill boring mathematical rules into them.If the school doesn't teach children enough to pass these so called tough academic tests, then what the hell do children sit in the bulding for 6 hours a day for?
And how in any possible reality is that the parents fault (who are allegedly pushing for tougher standards for their kids).Teachers really do come up with some BS excuses - Parents pushing for tougher standards and demanding improvements in grades when their kids fail is apparently the problem with education.
Not the school and teacher whose sole job it is to teach the children.Right.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979950</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981034</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe its the school thats failing</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265039460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Cos" as slang for "because" is hundreds of years old. If it were evolution, it would have evolved by now.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Cos " as slang for " because " is hundreds of years old .
If it were evolution , it would have evolved by now .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Cos" as slang for "because" is hundreds of years old.
If it were evolution, it would have evolved by now.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980058</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982580</id>
	<title>Re:Spell Checking</title>
	<author>canajin56</author>
	<datestamp>1265045460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Spellcheck means stopping typing in order to right click and correct it.  At least, if you fix them as soon as you finish the sentence.  So, long term, you condition yourself to learn how to spell things correctly, or you'll slow your own typing down!  Oh, well, in Elementary school I had a fine motor problem that meant I couldn't really write legibly (still can't but people stop caring after elementary) so I had a word processor device.  It had a spellcheck, but of course, it couldn't underline things in red, since it's just black-on-green LCD like a TI graphing calculator.  So, when you hit space after an incorrectly spelled word?  Bzzzt.  Not even a nice clean beep, a buzzer, or at least as close as you can come with what was basically the same as a PC's internal speaker.  Talk about negative reinforcement!</htmltext>
<tokenext>Spellcheck means stopping typing in order to right click and correct it .
At least , if you fix them as soon as you finish the sentence .
So , long term , you condition yourself to learn how to spell things correctly , or you 'll slow your own typing down !
Oh , well , in Elementary school I had a fine motor problem that meant I could n't really write legibly ( still ca n't but people stop caring after elementary ) so I had a word processor device .
It had a spellcheck , but of course , it could n't underline things in red , since it 's just black-on-green LCD like a TI graphing calculator .
So , when you hit space after an incorrectly spelled word ?
Bzzzt. Not even a nice clean beep , a buzzer , or at least as close as you can come with what was basically the same as a PC 's internal speaker .
Talk about negative reinforcement !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Spellcheck means stopping typing in order to right click and correct it.
At least, if you fix them as soon as you finish the sentence.
So, long term, you condition yourself to learn how to spell things correctly, or you'll slow your own typing down!
Oh, well, in Elementary school I had a fine motor problem that meant I couldn't really write legibly (still can't but people stop caring after elementary) so I had a word processor device.
It had a spellcheck, but of course, it couldn't underline things in red, since it's just black-on-green LCD like a TI graphing calculator.
So, when you hit space after an incorrectly spelled word?
Bzzzt.  Not even a nice clean beep, a buzzer, or at least as close as you can come with what was basically the same as a PC's internal speaker.
Talk about negative reinforcement!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979850</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981304</id>
	<title>Nothing new</title>
	<author>ElmoGonzo</author>
	<datestamp>1265040420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>In 1980 I was T.A.-ing an introductory course.  A senior journalism major's essay was so poorly written that I couldn't tell for sure what it said but I was generous and gave it a 'C'.  When the student came to complain, the excuse was that I was "just taking off for grammar" and the notion that there was nothing in the essay which indicated that the student knew the material was simply unthinkable.  I didn't budge but the student went to the professor (who was a notorious soft touch for women with short skirts) raised it to an 'A'.</htmltext>
<tokenext>In 1980 I was T.A.-ing an introductory course .
A senior journalism major 's essay was so poorly written that I could n't tell for sure what it said but I was generous and gave it a 'C' .
When the student came to complain , the excuse was that I was " just taking off for grammar " and the notion that there was nothing in the essay which indicated that the student knew the material was simply unthinkable .
I did n't budge but the student went to the professor ( who was a notorious soft touch for women with short skirts ) raised it to an 'A' .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In 1980 I was T.A.-ing an introductory course.
A senior journalism major's essay was so poorly written that I couldn't tell for sure what it said but I was generous and gave it a 'C'.
When the student came to complain, the excuse was that I was "just taking off for grammar" and the notion that there was nothing in the essay which indicated that the student knew the material was simply unthinkable.
I didn't budge but the student went to the professor (who was a notorious soft touch for women with short skirts) raised it to an 'A'.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980112</id>
	<title>Re:I laughed</title>
	<author>TheRaven64</author>
	<datestamp>1265035260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm not sure about the adjectival form, but in the UK it's common to have foundation courses at a university.  If you didn't quite get the grades required for the course you want, you can do a foundation year before your degree.  This doesn't count towards your final mark (you just need to pass it) and is intended to teach you the things that you failed to learn at A-level.  It's often much more broad than the rest of the degree, with various modules taught by different departments.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not sure about the adjectival form , but in the UK it 's common to have foundation courses at a university .
If you did n't quite get the grades required for the course you want , you can do a foundation year before your degree .
This does n't count towards your final mark ( you just need to pass it ) and is intended to teach you the things that you failed to learn at A-level .
It 's often much more broad than the rest of the degree , with various modules taught by different departments .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not sure about the adjectival form, but in the UK it's common to have foundation courses at a university.
If you didn't quite get the grades required for the course you want, you can do a foundation year before your degree.
This doesn't count towards your final mark (you just need to pass it) and is intended to teach you the things that you failed to learn at A-level.
It's often much more broad than the rest of the degree, with various modules taught by different departments.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979878</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30989318</id>
	<title>Re:Relevant</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265028420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why did you have him write that?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why did you have him write that ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why did you have him write that?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979830</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981470</id>
	<title>Are we surprised?</title>
	<author>Baloo Uriza</author>
	<datestamp>1265041140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I can't say I'm surprised.  You see this on Second Life on a daily basis.  The quality of education in the US in general is pretty pathetic.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I ca n't say I 'm surprised .
You see this on Second Life on a daily basis .
The quality of education in the US in general is pretty pathetic .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can't say I'm surprised.
You see this on Second Life on a daily basis.
The quality of education in the US in general is pretty pathetic.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984602</id>
	<title>Re:And this is how we die</title>
	<author>centuren</author>
	<datestamp>1265053800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Look at our international standardized test score rank. Look at the fraction of foreign students in our universities.</p></div><p>These two points can also be explained by things improving outside of the US.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Look at the strength and depth of our public debate.</p></div><p>This can also be explained by increased apathy and cynicism, leading to fewer people contributing to the quality of public debate.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Then compare what you saw to the documented evidence of the past 50 years.</p></div><p>I can conclude that things have changed in 50 years, but not on specific causes for each issues. These are still very interesting aspects of our present society to examine, of course. Things may well be getting worse. It certainly has started to feel that way, more than it has in the past. I think it's inherently difficult to compare one era against another, though, since so many things were different in addition to whatever single issue or fact one is trying to examine.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Look at our international standardized test score rank .
Look at the fraction of foreign students in our universities.These two points can also be explained by things improving outside of the US.Look at the strength and depth of our public debate.This can also be explained by increased apathy and cynicism , leading to fewer people contributing to the quality of public debate.Then compare what you saw to the documented evidence of the past 50 years.I can conclude that things have changed in 50 years , but not on specific causes for each issues .
These are still very interesting aspects of our present society to examine , of course .
Things may well be getting worse .
It certainly has started to feel that way , more than it has in the past .
I think it 's inherently difficult to compare one era against another , though , since so many things were different in addition to whatever single issue or fact one is trying to examine .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Look at our international standardized test score rank.
Look at the fraction of foreign students in our universities.These two points can also be explained by things improving outside of the US.Look at the strength and depth of our public debate.This can also be explained by increased apathy and cynicism, leading to fewer people contributing to the quality of public debate.Then compare what you saw to the documented evidence of the past 50 years.I can conclude that things have changed in 50 years, but not on specific causes for each issues.
These are still very interesting aspects of our present society to examine, of course.
Things may well be getting worse.
It certainly has started to feel that way, more than it has in the past.
I think it's inherently difficult to compare one era against another, though, since so many things were different in addition to whatever single issue or fact one is trying to examine.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980386</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983330</id>
	<title>Re:Universities can't keep up</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265048460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>You and I know what 'cuz' means,</i></p><p>It's not that clear cut on its own. Puerto Rican decedents use "cuz" in the same manner as blank people use "bro".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You and I know what 'cuz ' means,It 's not that clear cut on its own .
Puerto Rican decedents use " cuz " in the same manner as blank people use " bro " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You and I know what 'cuz' means,It's not that clear cut on its own.
Puerto Rican decedents use "cuz" in the same manner as blank people use "bro".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980196</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30991662</id>
	<title>Re:And this is how we die</title>
	<author>blai</author>
	<datestamp>1265046600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'd be embarrassed to be a student there, but I passed the ELPE test.<br>

Considering 20\% of that 30\% are international students (I work at admissions), it isn't really that bad if you consider them ESL...</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd be embarrassed to be a student there , but I passed the ELPE test .
Considering 20 \ % of that 30 \ % are international students ( I work at admissions ) , it is n't really that bad if you consider them ESL.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd be embarrassed to be a student there, but I passed the ELPE test.
Considering 20\% of that 30\% are international students (I work at admissions), it isn't really that bad if you consider them ESL...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979882</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984052</id>
	<title>Re:Isaac Asimov had it Right</title>
	<author>5KVGhost</author>
	<datestamp>1265051340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Asimov, President of Mensa and author of hundreds of books, thought that we should revamp the written word to spell things phonetically and do away with much of the silly grammar rules that only please those individuals so pedantic as to master them."</p><p>Many people have tried to do this. Most of them were very smart. Yet all of their attempts have failed completely. Can we perhaps conclude that such a project is best left as an academic exercise?</p><p>There are lots of problems with these attempts to "simplify" English. The most damning, in my opinion, is how most of them deliberately strip away layers of meaning, centuries of subtext and idiom, from the language. You throw in works from Shakespeare, Poe, and Dickens and out comes an ooze of identical pablum, like a coloring book without any crayons. And why? So lazy people can avoid learning some relatively simple rules of spelling and grammar that public school kids once easily mastered in elementary school.</p><p>Yes, English is complicated and occasionally contradictory. It's also incredibly flexible, very precise, and extremely resilient. A person with a poor command of the language can still understand and be understood, at least at a basic level. That's one reason why English is the standard language of air-traffic-control, for example.</p><p>And if you want to be able to communicate ideas of higher complexity, then you can demonstrate your ability to think by demonstrating your ability to speak and write clearly and precisely. If it's not worth your time to write well, then it's not worth my time to read.</p><p>"And whose standards are we talking about here? MLA style? Chicago? There are half a dozen different ways to place the commas in a list of items depending on the standard to which you are writing."</p><p>You exaggerate. But even if that were so, it makes little difference. Just pick a standard and stick with it. Really, it's not hard.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Asimov , President of Mensa and author of hundreds of books , thought that we should revamp the written word to spell things phonetically and do away with much of the silly grammar rules that only please those individuals so pedantic as to master them .
" Many people have tried to do this .
Most of them were very smart .
Yet all of their attempts have failed completely .
Can we perhaps conclude that such a project is best left as an academic exercise ? There are lots of problems with these attempts to " simplify " English .
The most damning , in my opinion , is how most of them deliberately strip away layers of meaning , centuries of subtext and idiom , from the language .
You throw in works from Shakespeare , Poe , and Dickens and out comes an ooze of identical pablum , like a coloring book without any crayons .
And why ?
So lazy people can avoid learning some relatively simple rules of spelling and grammar that public school kids once easily mastered in elementary school.Yes , English is complicated and occasionally contradictory .
It 's also incredibly flexible , very precise , and extremely resilient .
A person with a poor command of the language can still understand and be understood , at least at a basic level .
That 's one reason why English is the standard language of air-traffic-control , for example.And if you want to be able to communicate ideas of higher complexity , then you can demonstrate your ability to think by demonstrating your ability to speak and write clearly and precisely .
If it 's not worth your time to write well , then it 's not worth my time to read .
" And whose standards are we talking about here ?
MLA style ?
Chicago ? There are half a dozen different ways to place the commas in a list of items depending on the standard to which you are writing .
" You exaggerate .
But even if that were so , it makes little difference .
Just pick a standard and stick with it .
Really , it 's not hard .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Asimov, President of Mensa and author of hundreds of books, thought that we should revamp the written word to spell things phonetically and do away with much of the silly grammar rules that only please those individuals so pedantic as to master them.
"Many people have tried to do this.
Most of them were very smart.
Yet all of their attempts have failed completely.
Can we perhaps conclude that such a project is best left as an academic exercise?There are lots of problems with these attempts to "simplify" English.
The most damning, in my opinion, is how most of them deliberately strip away layers of meaning, centuries of subtext and idiom, from the language.
You throw in works from Shakespeare, Poe, and Dickens and out comes an ooze of identical pablum, like a coloring book without any crayons.
And why?
So lazy people can avoid learning some relatively simple rules of spelling and grammar that public school kids once easily mastered in elementary school.Yes, English is complicated and occasionally contradictory.
It's also incredibly flexible, very precise, and extremely resilient.
A person with a poor command of the language can still understand and be understood, at least at a basic level.
That's one reason why English is the standard language of air-traffic-control, for example.And if you want to be able to communicate ideas of higher complexity, then you can demonstrate your ability to think by demonstrating your ability to speak and write clearly and precisely.
If it's not worth your time to write well, then it's not worth my time to read.
"And whose standards are we talking about here?
MLA style?
Chicago? There are half a dozen different ways to place the commas in a list of items depending on the standard to which you are writing.
"You exaggerate.
But even if that were so, it makes little difference.
Just pick a standard and stick with it.
Really, it's not hard.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983098</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980814</id>
	<title>Re:This does not surprise me.</title>
	<author>houghi</author>
	<datestamp>1265038380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We sometimes outsource translations. You would expect them to be done by people who know the language. Often I wonder if the translations are done by babelfish. There were almost always spelling errors as well as gramatical errors and sometimes even change in the meaning of the content. The word 'not' can be pretty important.</p><p>(If you see any errors in it and correct me, I will take that as a comliment for you thinking that English is my first language.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We sometimes outsource translations .
You would expect them to be done by people who know the language .
Often I wonder if the translations are done by babelfish .
There were almost always spelling errors as well as gramatical errors and sometimes even change in the meaning of the content .
The word 'not ' can be pretty important .
( If you see any errors in it and correct me , I will take that as a comliment for you thinking that English is my first language .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We sometimes outsource translations.
You would expect them to be done by people who know the language.
Often I wonder if the translations are done by babelfish.
There were almost always spelling errors as well as gramatical errors and sometimes even change in the meaning of the content.
The word 'not' can be pretty important.
(If you see any errors in it and correct me, I will take that as a comliment for you thinking that English is my first language.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980108</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981338</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe its the school thats failing</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265040660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes. But no. Language is extremely ambiguous, even when carefully written. Sloppy grammar leads to misunderstandings, and these are not acceptable in formal situations. To illustrate my point: I just finished marking master's AI exams last weekend, and literally got answers whose correctness depended on the interpretation of a comma. Simply because students couldn't bother to write in complete sentences.</p><p>Language is about communication: sloppy grammar leads to fast communication on forums (fora?) where, let's face it, speed and lack of effort are more important than content. Precise grammar leads to effective communication anywhere else.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes .
But no .
Language is extremely ambiguous , even when carefully written .
Sloppy grammar leads to misunderstandings , and these are not acceptable in formal situations .
To illustrate my point : I just finished marking master 's AI exams last weekend , and literally got answers whose correctness depended on the interpretation of a comma .
Simply because students could n't bother to write in complete sentences.Language is about communication : sloppy grammar leads to fast communication on forums ( fora ?
) where , let 's face it , speed and lack of effort are more important than content .
Precise grammar leads to effective communication anywhere else .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes.
But no.
Language is extremely ambiguous, even when carefully written.
Sloppy grammar leads to misunderstandings, and these are not acceptable in formal situations.
To illustrate my point: I just finished marking master's AI exams last weekend, and literally got answers whose correctness depended on the interpretation of a comma.
Simply because students couldn't bother to write in complete sentences.Language is about communication: sloppy grammar leads to fast communication on forums (fora?
) where, let's face it, speed and lack of effort are more important than content.
Precise grammar leads to effective communication anywhere else.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980058</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983982</id>
	<title>The failure of grammar</title>
	<author>Animats</author>
	<datestamp>1265050980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
The problem with English "grammar" is that it doesn't work.  Fifty or a hundred years ago, the study of English grammar was taken seriously because it was believed to be a description of how the language worked.  Once computers started processing English text, that belief was destroyed.  Parsing of English sentences using a grammatical rule set just didn't work.
</p><p>
A few decades later, parsing of English is better understood.  Microsoft Word's grammar checker really does parse sentences.  At one time, Microsoft Research offered <a href="http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2000/05-03nlp.mspx" title="microsoft.com">a tool which plugged into Word's parser and displayed the sentence diagrams it uses internally.</a> [microsoft.com] The tools for this require Bayesian statistics; they're not based on rigid rules.
</p><p>
Research linguists have a handle on the parsing problem now.
But the methods that really work aren't useful as teaching tools for students.  So the teaching of "grammar" has lost its underpinnings.
</p><p>
Incidentally, in English there are only four main types of "open class" words: nouns, verbs, adjectives, and adverbs.  Then there are about 150-300 "closed class words" (opinions vary, but a common list contains 288), which have to be treated as special cases.  Parsing is driven almost entirely by the closed class words. (This is why "Jabberwocky" works.) Closed class words are added to English very slowly - the last one was "Ms."  But that's not how students are taught grammar.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem with English " grammar " is that it does n't work .
Fifty or a hundred years ago , the study of English grammar was taken seriously because it was believed to be a description of how the language worked .
Once computers started processing English text , that belief was destroyed .
Parsing of English sentences using a grammatical rule set just did n't work .
A few decades later , parsing of English is better understood .
Microsoft Word 's grammar checker really does parse sentences .
At one time , Microsoft Research offered a tool which plugged into Word 's parser and displayed the sentence diagrams it uses internally .
[ microsoft.com ] The tools for this require Bayesian statistics ; they 're not based on rigid rules .
Research linguists have a handle on the parsing problem now .
But the methods that really work are n't useful as teaching tools for students .
So the teaching of " grammar " has lost its underpinnings .
Incidentally , in English there are only four main types of " open class " words : nouns , verbs , adjectives , and adverbs .
Then there are about 150-300 " closed class words " ( opinions vary , but a common list contains 288 ) , which have to be treated as special cases .
Parsing is driven almost entirely by the closed class words .
( This is why " Jabberwocky " works .
) Closed class words are added to English very slowly - the last one was " Ms. " But that 's not how students are taught grammar .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
The problem with English "grammar" is that it doesn't work.
Fifty or a hundred years ago, the study of English grammar was taken seriously because it was believed to be a description of how the language worked.
Once computers started processing English text, that belief was destroyed.
Parsing of English sentences using a grammatical rule set just didn't work.
A few decades later, parsing of English is better understood.
Microsoft Word's grammar checker really does parse sentences.
At one time, Microsoft Research offered a tool which plugged into Word's parser and displayed the sentence diagrams it uses internally.
[microsoft.com] The tools for this require Bayesian statistics; they're not based on rigid rules.
Research linguists have a handle on the parsing problem now.
But the methods that really work aren't useful as teaching tools for students.
So the teaching of "grammar" has lost its underpinnings.
Incidentally, in English there are only four main types of "open class" words: nouns, verbs, adjectives, and adverbs.
Then there are about 150-300 "closed class words" (opinions vary, but a common list contains 288), which have to be treated as special cases.
Parsing is driven almost entirely by the closed class words.
(This is why "Jabberwocky" works.
) Closed class words are added to English very slowly - the last one was "Ms."  But that's not how students are taught grammar.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984464</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265053200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Presently, the majority of the students I am watching as I write this have elected not to open their book and participate. Instead they have chosen to engage themselves in useless, and frankly, inane and nonsensical conversation.</p></div></blockquote><p>Perhaps this is because their instructor is reading and posting on slashdot.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Presently , the majority of the students I am watching as I write this have elected not to open their book and participate .
Instead they have chosen to engage themselves in useless , and frankly , inane and nonsensical conversation.Perhaps this is because their instructor is reading and posting on slashdot .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Presently, the majority of the students I am watching as I write this have elected not to open their book and participate.
Instead they have chosen to engage themselves in useless, and frankly, inane and nonsensical conversation.Perhaps this is because their instructor is reading and posting on slashdot.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981088</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30986192</id>
	<title>Re:This does not surprise me.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265016300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt;&gt; When the programmers are copy-editing your marketing material, that should be a sign you've got literacy problems!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...you HAVE literacy problems</p><p>Other than that, keep up the good work.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; &gt; When the programmers are copy-editing your marketing material , that should be a sign you 've got literacy problems !
...you HAVE literacy problemsOther than that , keep up the good work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt;&gt; When the programmers are copy-editing your marketing material, that should be a sign you've got literacy problems!
...you HAVE literacy problemsOther than that, keep up the good work.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980108</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984686</id>
	<title>Re:This does not surprise me.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265054220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Graphic designers as a group suffer badly from dyslexia. I've noticed this in several companies, over a 15-year period. I don't think this reflects particularly poorly on them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Graphic designers as a group suffer badly from dyslexia .
I 've noticed this in several companies , over a 15-year period .
I do n't think this reflects particularly poorly on them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Graphic designers as a group suffer badly from dyslexia.
I've noticed this in several companies, over a 15-year period.
I don't think this reflects particularly poorly on them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980108</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983482</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>onionman</author>
	<datestamp>1265049060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm a math professor at a U.S. university, and I must sadly agree with you.  I regularly have students in first year calculus classes who can't add fractions even though they received high marks on their standardized high school math tests.</p><p>On the issue of language, however, I would encourage the pedantically minded to remember that grammar and spelling are artificial constructions which serve only to model the natural language.  Therefore, if the majority of English speakers choose to: split infinitives, end sentences with prepositions, spell phonetically, add symbols to the alphabet to compress textual communication, abandon the subjunctive, etc., then those users are--by definition--correct.  Academic grammarians must adapt and keep pace with the ever changing nature of language.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm a math professor at a U.S. university , and I must sadly agree with you .
I regularly have students in first year calculus classes who ca n't add fractions even though they received high marks on their standardized high school math tests.On the issue of language , however , I would encourage the pedantically minded to remember that grammar and spelling are artificial constructions which serve only to model the natural language .
Therefore , if the majority of English speakers choose to : split infinitives , end sentences with prepositions , spell phonetically , add symbols to the alphabet to compress textual communication , abandon the subjunctive , etc. , then those users are--by definition--correct .
Academic grammarians must adapt and keep pace with the ever changing nature of language .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm a math professor at a U.S. university, and I must sadly agree with you.
I regularly have students in first year calculus classes who can't add fractions even though they received high marks on their standardized high school math tests.On the issue of language, however, I would encourage the pedantically minded to remember that grammar and spelling are artificial constructions which serve only to model the natural language.
Therefore, if the majority of English speakers choose to: split infinitives, end sentences with prepositions, spell phonetically, add symbols to the alphabet to compress textual communication, abandon the subjunctive, etc., then those users are--by definition--correct.
Academic grammarians must adapt and keep pace with the ever changing nature of language.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980606</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980406</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe its the school thats failing</title>
	<author>MistrX</author>
	<datestamp>1265036580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Depends, did you consider that language can also devolve and that it is the traditional grammar which is logically more correct where modern society is just tring to fit more words within preset 'Twitter boundaries'?</p><p>set Tinfoil\_hat<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:= 1;</p><p>Are the people at Twitter or at the mobilephone companies trying to get a monopoly on language?</p><p>set Tinfoil\_hat<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:= 0;</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Depends , did you consider that language can also devolve and that it is the traditional grammar which is logically more correct where modern society is just tring to fit more words within preset 'Twitter boundaries ' ? set Tinfoil \ _hat : = 1 ; Are the people at Twitter or at the mobilephone companies trying to get a monopoly on language ? set Tinfoil \ _hat : = 0 ;</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Depends, did you consider that language can also devolve and that it is the traditional grammar which is logically more correct where modern society is just tring to fit more words within preset 'Twitter boundaries'?set Tinfoil\_hat := 1;Are the people at Twitter or at the mobilephone companies trying to get a monopoly on language?set Tinfoil\_hat := 0;</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980058</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30985006</id>
	<title>Re:As a father...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265055600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Dearest BIll,</p><p>It's a vagina. Not a clown car.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Dearest BIll,It 's a vagina .
Not a clown car .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Dearest BIll,It's a vagina.
Not a clown car.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980568</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980302</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>happy\_place</author>
	<datestamp>1265036160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Outside of the fifth grade, when do public schools bother to teach grammar? So far, they haven't. My daughter's seventh grade class has been all about reading. They have certain expectations about writing, but the rules and intricacies of grammar are not part of the subject matter. The curriculum simply does not reflect your observation. Further the closer to college, the less parents have influence over curriculum.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Outside of the fifth grade , when do public schools bother to teach grammar ?
So far , they have n't .
My daughter 's seventh grade class has been all about reading .
They have certain expectations about writing , but the rules and intricacies of grammar are not part of the subject matter .
The curriculum simply does not reflect your observation .
Further the closer to college , the less parents have influence over curriculum .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Outside of the fifth grade, when do public schools bother to teach grammar?
So far, they haven't.
My daughter's seventh grade class has been all about reading.
They have certain expectations about writing, but the rules and intricacies of grammar are not part of the subject matter.
The curriculum simply does not reflect your observation.
Further the closer to college, the less parents have influence over curriculum.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979950</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979890</id>
	<title>Re:And this is how we die</title>
	<author>alen</author>
	<datestamp>1265034180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>as long as i can remember, the next generation has always looked worse than the previous generation. mostly because they did thing differently. generation X was said to be lazy 15 years ago because they sat around with their computers all the time instead of working in a factory</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>as long as i can remember , the next generation has always looked worse than the previous generation .
mostly because they did thing differently .
generation X was said to be lazy 15 years ago because they sat around with their computers all the time instead of working in a factory</tokentext>
<sentencetext>as long as i can remember, the next generation has always looked worse than the previous generation.
mostly because they did thing differently.
generation X was said to be lazy 15 years ago because they sat around with their computers all the time instead of working in a factory</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979816</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981320</id>
	<title>Re:This does not surprise me.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265040540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You do realize you have an unnecessary comma in your first sentence?<br>Impressive, since you're the one who proof-reads.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You do realize you have an unnecessary comma in your first sentence ? Impressive , since you 're the one who proof-reads .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You do realize you have an unnecessary comma in your first sentence?Impressive, since you're the one who proof-reads.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980108</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981572</id>
	<title>Trick question!</title>
	<author>Toze</author>
	<datestamp>1265041500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No word is a part of speech unless it is used in context.</p><p>(But in the typical Canadian context, such as "Great hockey game, eh?" or "Watch out for that moose, eh?", it is an interjection.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No word is a part of speech unless it is used in context .
( But in the typical Canadian context , such as " Great hockey game , eh ?
" or " Watch out for that moose , eh ?
" , it is an interjection .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No word is a part of speech unless it is used in context.
(But in the typical Canadian context, such as "Great hockey game, eh?
" or "Watch out for that moose, eh?
", it is an interjection.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979898</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983278</id>
	<title>Re:Spell Checking</title>
	<author>BiggerBoat</author>
	<datestamp>1265048220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>That would be perfectly consistent with using a spell checker and not realising that it's suggested a grammatically-incorrect but properly spelled word.</p></div><p>Like my damn iPhone always wanting to correct "its" to "it's" even when the former is correct in the context. It sure is tempting me to just turn auto-correct off altogether.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>That would be perfectly consistent with using a spell checker and not realising that it 's suggested a grammatically-incorrect but properly spelled word.Like my damn iPhone always wanting to correct " its " to " it 's " even when the former is correct in the context .
It sure is tempting me to just turn auto-correct off altogether .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That would be perfectly consistent with using a spell checker and not realising that it's suggested a grammatically-incorrect but properly spelled word.Like my damn iPhone always wanting to correct "its" to "it's" even when the former is correct in the context.
It sure is tempting me to just turn auto-correct off altogether.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980082</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984100</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>outlander</author>
	<datestamp>1265051520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Um, not so much.  I have taught students (college level) who failed to attend classes, handed in substandard work, and subsequently had parents call and yell at me that they were paying my salary, and consequently that their kid was entitled to pass my class.</p><p>In *college.*  At a name-brand Eastern school that did OK in basketball.</p><p>At one point, I received a rather well-written communication from a parent regarding his child's grade (comp 101).  I replied to his letter with a note asking him whether he considered the writing in the enclosures (copies of his child's work) acceptable.</p><p>I received an apology and encouragement to fail his child if said child continued to perform work that wouldn't be acceptable in a job setting.</p><p>It was far and away the most vindicating moment of my teaching career.</p><p>Some parents have common sense and want their kids to be smart.  Some want their kids credentialed.  The latter drive me crazy, esp after I received an email explaining that their child has to "get his BS at any cause." (e.g., get his degree at any cost).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Um , not so much .
I have taught students ( college level ) who failed to attend classes , handed in substandard work , and subsequently had parents call and yell at me that they were paying my salary , and consequently that their kid was entitled to pass my class.In * college .
* At a name-brand Eastern school that did OK in basketball.At one point , I received a rather well-written communication from a parent regarding his child 's grade ( comp 101 ) .
I replied to his letter with a note asking him whether he considered the writing in the enclosures ( copies of his child 's work ) acceptable.I received an apology and encouragement to fail his child if said child continued to perform work that would n't be acceptable in a job setting.It was far and away the most vindicating moment of my teaching career.Some parents have common sense and want their kids to be smart .
Some want their kids credentialed .
The latter drive me crazy , esp after I received an email explaining that their child has to " get his BS at any cause .
" ( e.g. , get his degree at any cost ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Um, not so much.
I have taught students (college level) who failed to attend classes, handed in substandard work, and subsequently had parents call and yell at me that they were paying my salary, and consequently that their kid was entitled to pass my class.In *college.
*  At a name-brand Eastern school that did OK in basketball.At one point, I received a rather well-written communication from a parent regarding his child's grade (comp 101).
I replied to his letter with a note asking him whether he considered the writing in the enclosures (copies of his child's work) acceptable.I received an apology and encouragement to fail his child if said child continued to perform work that wouldn't be acceptable in a job setting.It was far and away the most vindicating moment of my teaching career.Some parents have common sense and want their kids to be smart.
Some want their kids credentialed.
The latter drive me crazy, esp after I received an email explaining that their child has to "get his BS at any cause.
" (e.g., get his degree at any cost).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980504</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984644</id>
	<title>Alternative explanation</title>
	<author>MobyDisk</author>
	<datestamp>1265054040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>"30\% of freshman university students fail a 'simple English test' at Waterloo University (up from 25\% a few years ago.</p> </div><p>This doesn't necessarily mean that students are not writing as well as they used to.  Could this be better explained by changing demographics at this particular university?</p><p>For example, perhaps the schools in the area are becoming worse.  Or maybe more students are applying to the university due to an economic down turn.  Or a manufacturing plant laid off area workers.  Or maybe the change in SAT scoring adjusted the threshold of people who think they can get into the school.  Or maybe more people are feeling empowered to go to school than there were in previous years.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" 30 \ % of freshman university students fail a 'simple English test ' at Waterloo University ( up from 25 \ % a few years ago .
This does n't necessarily mean that students are not writing as well as they used to .
Could this be better explained by changing demographics at this particular university ? For example , perhaps the schools in the area are becoming worse .
Or maybe more students are applying to the university due to an economic down turn .
Or a manufacturing plant laid off area workers .
Or maybe the change in SAT scoring adjusted the threshold of people who think they can get into the school .
Or maybe more people are feeling empowered to go to school than there were in previous years .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"30\% of freshman university students fail a 'simple English test' at Waterloo University (up from 25\% a few years ago.
This doesn't necessarily mean that students are not writing as well as they used to.
Could this be better explained by changing demographics at this particular university?For example, perhaps the schools in the area are becoming worse.
Or maybe more students are applying to the university due to an economic down turn.
Or a manufacturing plant laid off area workers.
Or maybe the change in SAT scoring adjusted the threshold of people who think they can get into the school.
Or maybe more people are feeling empowered to go to school than there were in previous years.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981788</id>
	<title>Changing language</title>
	<author>AlpineR</author>
	<datestamp>1265042280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The young people think you're being anal because the linguistic norms are changing. They don't even see the spelling and grammar errors because they're a part of the language they know. It's only us older folk who learned our language in a time when publishing was much more restricted that get hung up on these changes. Still, it's a good thing they had you to proofread what they wrote since many of your customers would be likewise appalled at their spelling and grammar.</p><p>How could young people today be less literate than the young people of decades past? They consume vastly more written information and write frequently. When I was young, voluntary writing was a rarity. During school breaks I might write nothing for days or weeks except short lists and game codes. Kids now are texting, emailing, blogging, and commenting constantly. They have far more chance to absorb, practice, and communicate with written language.</p><p>So is it really a tragedy if "because" morphs into "cuz"? Or apostrophes become redundant when meaning is clear without them? Language has been changing as long as language has existed. There are plenty of words in Middle English that I can't make any sense of, and even writing as recent as the early 1900's is jarring and awkward to my eyes. It's like reading Fortran - I can do it with effort, but I wouldn't write it unless forced to for a particular task.</p><p>English is becoming simpler in spelling, punctuation, and sentence structure. If people gradually agree on these changes then communication can continue or expand unimpeded.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The young people think you 're being anal because the linguistic norms are changing .
They do n't even see the spelling and grammar errors because they 're a part of the language they know .
It 's only us older folk who learned our language in a time when publishing was much more restricted that get hung up on these changes .
Still , it 's a good thing they had you to proofread what they wrote since many of your customers would be likewise appalled at their spelling and grammar.How could young people today be less literate than the young people of decades past ?
They consume vastly more written information and write frequently .
When I was young , voluntary writing was a rarity .
During school breaks I might write nothing for days or weeks except short lists and game codes .
Kids now are texting , emailing , blogging , and commenting constantly .
They have far more chance to absorb , practice , and communicate with written language.So is it really a tragedy if " because " morphs into " cuz " ?
Or apostrophes become redundant when meaning is clear without them ?
Language has been changing as long as language has existed .
There are plenty of words in Middle English that I ca n't make any sense of , and even writing as recent as the early 1900 's is jarring and awkward to my eyes .
It 's like reading Fortran - I can do it with effort , but I would n't write it unless forced to for a particular task.English is becoming simpler in spelling , punctuation , and sentence structure .
If people gradually agree on these changes then communication can continue or expand unimpeded .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The young people think you're being anal because the linguistic norms are changing.
They don't even see the spelling and grammar errors because they're a part of the language they know.
It's only us older folk who learned our language in a time when publishing was much more restricted that get hung up on these changes.
Still, it's a good thing they had you to proofread what they wrote since many of your customers would be likewise appalled at their spelling and grammar.How could young people today be less literate than the young people of decades past?
They consume vastly more written information and write frequently.
When I was young, voluntary writing was a rarity.
During school breaks I might write nothing for days or weeks except short lists and game codes.
Kids now are texting, emailing, blogging, and commenting constantly.
They have far more chance to absorb, practice, and communicate with written language.So is it really a tragedy if "because" morphs into "cuz"?
Or apostrophes become redundant when meaning is clear without them?
Language has been changing as long as language has existed.
There are plenty of words in Middle English that I can't make any sense of, and even writing as recent as the early 1900's is jarring and awkward to my eyes.
It's like reading Fortran - I can do it with effort, but I wouldn't write it unless forced to for a particular task.English is becoming simpler in spelling, punctuation, and sentence structure.
If people gradually agree on these changes then communication can continue or expand unimpeded.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980108</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981280</id>
	<title>Re:Relevant</title>
	<author>Enter the Shoggoth</author>
	<datestamp>1265040420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I once had a freshman student write in a paper, "The bathroom smelled in a way that is not relevant to life."</p></div><p>Thank you for that: I laughed so hard I puked.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I once had a freshman student write in a paper , " The bathroom smelled in a way that is not relevant to life .
" Thank you for that : I laughed so hard I puked .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I once had a freshman student write in a paper, "The bathroom smelled in a way that is not relevant to life.
"Thank you for that: I laughed so hard I puked.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979830</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981990</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>blahplusplus</author>
	<datestamp>1265043180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"That's the funny thing. Many of the dumber grammatical errors you see on Slashdot are made by people who are evidently native English speakers. They're things that should have been corrected in grade school, like problems with "your" and "you're", or "their", "there" and "they're". As they occur in trends like many other mindless activities, the latest one is "loose" vs. "lose". "</p><p>Actually these things aren't "correctable" in many people who make these errors.  They have unconscious errors in their neurology and they make these mistakes without realizing them, there are gaps in  expressing things through motor system of the brain.  I'm one who can think clearly internally but when I go to express what I am thinking some words I told my motor system to type will never make it there or there is mis retrieval.</p><p>The spoken and writing areas of how words are stored in the brain overlap, the ironic thing about slashdot is that most people here have no background or have read up on modern neurology.</p><p>A quick course in the neurology and the activation of these networks will give you a new appreciation for why these people make errors constantly and no amount of schooling is going to correct the problem for many people.</p><p>Online many people don't really care if they make small mistakes, it's expected.</p><p>A good place to start would be to get a copy of Descartes error, it will give you a new appreciation for how much of what you take for granted in how you function is done by unconscious  processes and you're not 'really in control', your control is really minimal and a function of the health of the underlying neurology of different parts of the brain and nervous system.</p><p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Descartes-Error-Emotion-Reason-Human/dp/014303622X/" title="amazon.com">http://www.amazon.com/Descartes-Error-Emotion-Reason-Human/dp/014303622X/</a> [amazon.com]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" That 's the funny thing .
Many of the dumber grammatical errors you see on Slashdot are made by people who are evidently native English speakers .
They 're things that should have been corrected in grade school , like problems with " your " and " you 're " , or " their " , " there " and " they 're " .
As they occur in trends like many other mindless activities , the latest one is " loose " vs. " lose " . " Actually these things are n't " correctable " in many people who make these errors .
They have unconscious errors in their neurology and they make these mistakes without realizing them , there are gaps in expressing things through motor system of the brain .
I 'm one who can think clearly internally but when I go to express what I am thinking some words I told my motor system to type will never make it there or there is mis retrieval.The spoken and writing areas of how words are stored in the brain overlap , the ironic thing about slashdot is that most people here have no background or have read up on modern neurology.A quick course in the neurology and the activation of these networks will give you a new appreciation for why these people make errors constantly and no amount of schooling is going to correct the problem for many people.Online many people do n't really care if they make small mistakes , it 's expected.A good place to start would be to get a copy of Descartes error , it will give you a new appreciation for how much of what you take for granted in how you function is done by unconscious processes and you 're not 'really in control ' , your control is really minimal and a function of the health of the underlying neurology of different parts of the brain and nervous system.http : //www.amazon.com/Descartes-Error-Emotion-Reason-Human/dp/014303622X/ [ amazon.com ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"That's the funny thing.
Many of the dumber grammatical errors you see on Slashdot are made by people who are evidently native English speakers.
They're things that should have been corrected in grade school, like problems with "your" and "you're", or "their", "there" and "they're".
As they occur in trends like many other mindless activities, the latest one is "loose" vs. "lose". "Actually these things aren't "correctable" in many people who make these errors.
They have unconscious errors in their neurology and they make these mistakes without realizing them, there are gaps in  expressing things through motor system of the brain.
I'm one who can think clearly internally but when I go to express what I am thinking some words I told my motor system to type will never make it there or there is mis retrieval.The spoken and writing areas of how words are stored in the brain overlap, the ironic thing about slashdot is that most people here have no background or have read up on modern neurology.A quick course in the neurology and the activation of these networks will give you a new appreciation for why these people make errors constantly and no amount of schooling is going to correct the problem for many people.Online many people don't really care if they make small mistakes, it's expected.A good place to start would be to get a copy of Descartes error, it will give you a new appreciation for how much of what you take for granted in how you function is done by unconscious  processes and you're not 'really in control', your control is really minimal and a function of the health of the underlying neurology of different parts of the brain and nervous system.http://www.amazon.com/Descartes-Error-Emotion-Reason-Human/dp/014303622X/ [amazon.com]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980606</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980444</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe its the school thats failing</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265036760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Did anyone every stop to consider that language is evolving and that it is the traditional grammar which is failing to keep up with modern society?</p></div><p>Did you ever stop to consider that language may be devolving? Change isn't good in and of itself.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Did anyone every stop to consider that language is evolving and that it is the traditional grammar which is failing to keep up with modern society ? Did you ever stop to consider that language may be devolving ?
Change is n't good in and of itself .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Did anyone every stop to consider that language is evolving and that it is the traditional grammar which is failing to keep up with modern society?Did you ever stop to consider that language may be devolving?
Change isn't good in and of itself.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980058</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983294</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>mattsday</author>
	<datestamp>1265048280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Funny thing is as a dyslexic student they spent ages correcting my basic English. Hours doing they're, their, there etc.</p><p>After a while I learned how to overcome my dyslexia and amazingly can now out-spell and out-grammar the vast majority of my peers at work. The reason? Because I was dyslexic I got corrected and cared for.</p><p>The kids who weren't? Well they were 'normal' and no one bothered. Yeah, I still have trouble spelling necessary (which is what spell checkers are for), but I understand the basics of English and have high spelling and grammar competence.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Funny thing is as a dyslexic student they spent ages correcting my basic English .
Hours doing they 're , their , there etc.After a while I learned how to overcome my dyslexia and amazingly can now out-spell and out-grammar the vast majority of my peers at work .
The reason ?
Because I was dyslexic I got corrected and cared for.The kids who were n't ?
Well they were 'normal ' and no one bothered .
Yeah , I still have trouble spelling necessary ( which is what spell checkers are for ) , but I understand the basics of English and have high spelling and grammar competence .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Funny thing is as a dyslexic student they spent ages correcting my basic English.
Hours doing they're, their, there etc.After a while I learned how to overcome my dyslexia and amazingly can now out-spell and out-grammar the vast majority of my peers at work.
The reason?
Because I was dyslexic I got corrected and cared for.The kids who weren't?
Well they were 'normal' and no one bothered.
Yeah, I still have trouble spelling necessary (which is what spell checkers are for), but I understand the basics of English and have high spelling and grammar competence.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980606</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982976</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>shutdown -p now</author>
	<datestamp>1265047020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>You know what is the most terrifying?<br>I'm a foreigner in England and found that I know grammar and spelling better than most of my English friends. We're talking about people who passed through basic education system here, and at least half of them also through higher studies.<br>If you ask them about grammar, apostrophe rules or spelling they will just say they never studied this. Nobody ever though them this. Then you wonder why all this is in total shambles.</p></div><p>I've had a very similar experience while studying in a university in New Zealand. Naturally, we foreigners couldn't ever speak as good as locals, but when it came to writing essays, the challenge of deciding on "its" vs "it's" quickly became insurmountable to the majority of them. The skill of putting commas into places were they belong was considered even more arcane. Not that we  were perfect at it, just so much better than them...</p><p>I've actually had our lecturer on professional ethics course complain to me about this in a several-minute rant - she was an old British lady, and the butchering of English language that she had to endure while reading the essays submitted to her was clearly unnerving her a lot, especially when she couldn't really mark them down for that.</p><p>That said, it seems that the standards of spelling and grammar are rapidly falling in my native country, Russia, as well. In general, people who were educated in the USSR seem to be really good at it, but after that, the more recent the schooling was, the worse it is. In my generation, probably about half of university students made glaring mistakes on the same level as "its"/"it's". For those who are 3-4 years younger, writing correctly seems to be an exception. And it's not just laziness - on a few occasions, I did point out the mistakes, and there was genuine surprise there; "what do you mean, it's not written like this?"</p><p>Well, I guess that's globalization and universal Internet access for you...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You know what is the most terrifying ? I 'm a foreigner in England and found that I know grammar and spelling better than most of my English friends .
We 're talking about people who passed through basic education system here , and at least half of them also through higher studies.If you ask them about grammar , apostrophe rules or spelling they will just say they never studied this .
Nobody ever though them this .
Then you wonder why all this is in total shambles.I 've had a very similar experience while studying in a university in New Zealand .
Naturally , we foreigners could n't ever speak as good as locals , but when it came to writing essays , the challenge of deciding on " its " vs " it 's " quickly became insurmountable to the majority of them .
The skill of putting commas into places were they belong was considered even more arcane .
Not that we were perfect at it , just so much better than them...I 've actually had our lecturer on professional ethics course complain to me about this in a several-minute rant - she was an old British lady , and the butchering of English language that she had to endure while reading the essays submitted to her was clearly unnerving her a lot , especially when she could n't really mark them down for that.That said , it seems that the standards of spelling and grammar are rapidly falling in my native country , Russia , as well .
In general , people who were educated in the USSR seem to be really good at it , but after that , the more recent the schooling was , the worse it is .
In my generation , probably about half of university students made glaring mistakes on the same level as " its " / " it 's " .
For those who are 3-4 years younger , writing correctly seems to be an exception .
And it 's not just laziness - on a few occasions , I did point out the mistakes , and there was genuine surprise there ; " what do you mean , it 's not written like this ?
" Well , I guess that 's globalization and universal Internet access for you.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You know what is the most terrifying?I'm a foreigner in England and found that I know grammar and spelling better than most of my English friends.
We're talking about people who passed through basic education system here, and at least half of them also through higher studies.If you ask them about grammar, apostrophe rules or spelling they will just say they never studied this.
Nobody ever though them this.
Then you wonder why all this is in total shambles.I've had a very similar experience while studying in a university in New Zealand.
Naturally, we foreigners couldn't ever speak as good as locals, but when it came to writing essays, the challenge of deciding on "its" vs "it's" quickly became insurmountable to the majority of them.
The skill of putting commas into places were they belong was considered even more arcane.
Not that we  were perfect at it, just so much better than them...I've actually had our lecturer on professional ethics course complain to me about this in a several-minute rant - she was an old British lady, and the butchering of English language that she had to endure while reading the essays submitted to her was clearly unnerving her a lot, especially when she couldn't really mark them down for that.That said, it seems that the standards of spelling and grammar are rapidly falling in my native country, Russia, as well.
In general, people who were educated in the USSR seem to be really good at it, but after that, the more recent the schooling was, the worse it is.
In my generation, probably about half of university students made glaring mistakes on the same level as "its"/"it's".
For those who are 3-4 years younger, writing correctly seems to be an exception.
And it's not just laziness - on a few occasions, I did point out the mistakes, and there was genuine surprise there; "what do you mean, it's not written like this?
"Well, I guess that's globalization and universal Internet access for you...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980048</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981870</id>
	<title>Re:Spell Checking</title>
	<author>Speare</author>
	<datestamp>1265042700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I wrote a simple little search-and-replace proxy that I call typoxy.  Browse many forums through this, and about 1000 common typos and grammatical errors are fixed invisibly.  It can't try to figure out complicated grammar errors, but it does find fragments including "would of" or "your the" and replaces suitable English.  The HTML highlighting of errors is configurable.</p><p>screenshot: <a href="http://halley.cc/typoxy.png" title="halley.cc">http://halley.cc/typoxy.png</a> [halley.cc] - code: <a href="http://halley.cc/typoxy.txt" title="halley.cc">http://halley.cc/typoxy.txt</a> [halley.cc] - typo file (save as ~/.typo): <a href="http://halley.cc/dot-typo" title="halley.cc">http://halley.cc/dot-typo</a> [halley.cc] </p><p>Implementing something like this might be useful to extend the "wavy underscore" corrections in Firefox/Chrome, which a lot of people depend on for their corrections.  MS Word uses a wavy green for grammar, and wavy red for spelling, but I don't think that the two must be distinguished for most users.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I wrote a simple little search-and-replace proxy that I call typoxy .
Browse many forums through this , and about 1000 common typos and grammatical errors are fixed invisibly .
It ca n't try to figure out complicated grammar errors , but it does find fragments including " would of " or " your the " and replaces suitable English .
The HTML highlighting of errors is configurable.screenshot : http : //halley.cc/typoxy.png [ halley.cc ] - code : http : //halley.cc/typoxy.txt [ halley.cc ] - typo file ( save as ~ /.typo ) : http : //halley.cc/dot-typo [ halley.cc ] Implementing something like this might be useful to extend the " wavy underscore " corrections in Firefox/Chrome , which a lot of people depend on for their corrections .
MS Word uses a wavy green for grammar , and wavy red for spelling , but I do n't think that the two must be distinguished for most users .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I wrote a simple little search-and-replace proxy that I call typoxy.
Browse many forums through this, and about 1000 common typos and grammatical errors are fixed invisibly.
It can't try to figure out complicated grammar errors, but it does find fragments including "would of" or "your the" and replaces suitable English.
The HTML highlighting of errors is configurable.screenshot: http://halley.cc/typoxy.png [halley.cc] - code: http://halley.cc/typoxy.txt [halley.cc] - typo file (save as ~/.typo): http://halley.cc/dot-typo [halley.cc] Implementing something like this might be useful to extend the "wavy underscore" corrections in Firefox/Chrome, which a lot of people depend on for their corrections.
MS Word uses a wavy green for grammar, and wavy red for spelling, but I don't think that the two must be distinguished for most users.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979850</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982302</id>
	<title>ELPE Marking Does Not Reflect English Proficiency</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265044440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I "just" passed the ELPE with 50\%; ever since I've never gotten less than 80\% on a course based mostly (or in some cases exclusively) on essay writing. I think the marking scheme for the ELPE makes no sense.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I " just " passed the ELPE with 50 \ % ; ever since I 've never gotten less than 80 \ % on a course based mostly ( or in some cases exclusively ) on essay writing .
I think the marking scheme for the ELPE makes no sense .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I "just" passed the ELPE with 50\%; ever since I've never gotten less than 80\% on a course based mostly (or in some cases exclusively) on essay writing.
I think the marking scheme for the ELPE makes no sense.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979990</id>
	<title>hai</title>
	<author>msclrhd</author>
	<datestamp>1265034720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Hai, I can haz degree?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Hai , I can haz degree ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Hai, I can haz degree?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982156</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>tsstahl</author>
	<datestamp>1265043840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Look you insensitive childless clod.  It is no easy to maintain an average of nine hours of primetime TV viewing a week and still be able to cite Oprah and Gugde Judy in the break room at target while we discuss the crap schools and teachines that our kids pass for and them come home.
<br> <br>
----
Sorry, couldn't resist.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Look you insensitive childless clod .
It is no easy to maintain an average of nine hours of primetime TV viewing a week and still be able to cite Oprah and Gugde Judy in the break room at target while we discuss the crap schools and teachines that our kids pass for and them come home .
---- Sorry , could n't resist .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Look you insensitive childless clod.
It is no easy to maintain an average of nine hours of primetime TV viewing a week and still be able to cite Oprah and Gugde Judy in the break room at target while we discuss the crap schools and teachines that our kids pass for and them come home.
----
Sorry, couldn't resist.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980556</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981180</id>
	<title>Oblig...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265040060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>LOL</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>LOL</tokentext>
<sentencetext>LOL</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984552</id>
	<title>Re:Relevant</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265053560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I had a first year engineering student check over his team's report and he exclaimed, "there is no grammar errors." I started laughing and said, "that's a good one!" The blank look on his face made it seem even funnier.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I had a first year engineering student check over his team 's report and he exclaimed , " there is no grammar errors .
" I started laughing and said , " that 's a good one !
" The blank look on his face made it seem even funnier .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I had a first year engineering student check over his team's report and he exclaimed, "there is no grammar errors.
" I started laughing and said, "that's a good one!
" The blank look on his face made it seem even funnier.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979830</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30997362</id>
	<title>It's the parents fault and responsibility</title>
	<author>ukemike</author>
	<datestamp>1265133360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I agree.  It is all about parenting.  When I was little my Mom corrected any grammatical mistake I made no matter what the situation.  It took me forever to get the cases of personal pronouns straight.  My 6 year old son already has better grammar than many much older kids because I always correct him.  Since I do it nicely, he loves it.  I guess I'm lucky that my son has a love of language.  Someday I'm sure that his friends will become much more of an influence and he will learn texting language and the slang of his generation, and that's just fine because he will be able to switch to real English when he chooses.  Parents with poor grammar will pass it on to their kids unless their kids are unusually motivated or in a first rate school.  <br> <br>

I think that poor grammar is a symptom of sloppy thinking.  Sloppy thinking is at the root of our society's problems.  The various political demagogues (thanks spell checker!) would never be able to get away with the lies and fallacious arguments they spew if most of the country were well trained in rhetoric or formal logic.  <br> <br>

Here is the point I would like every parent or potential parent to hear:  If your schools are not doing the job and you can't afford better schools, it is YOUR JOB  to fill in the gaps.  I guarantee that my son will be well versed in logic before he finished high school, because he will get it from me.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree .
It is all about parenting .
When I was little my Mom corrected any grammatical mistake I made no matter what the situation .
It took me forever to get the cases of personal pronouns straight .
My 6 year old son already has better grammar than many much older kids because I always correct him .
Since I do it nicely , he loves it .
I guess I 'm lucky that my son has a love of language .
Someday I 'm sure that his friends will become much more of an influence and he will learn texting language and the slang of his generation , and that 's just fine because he will be able to switch to real English when he chooses .
Parents with poor grammar will pass it on to their kids unless their kids are unusually motivated or in a first rate school .
I think that poor grammar is a symptom of sloppy thinking .
Sloppy thinking is at the root of our society 's problems .
The various political demagogues ( thanks spell checker !
) would never be able to get away with the lies and fallacious arguments they spew if most of the country were well trained in rhetoric or formal logic .
Here is the point I would like every parent or potential parent to hear : If your schools are not doing the job and you ca n't afford better schools , it is YOUR JOB to fill in the gaps .
I guarantee that my son will be well versed in logic before he finished high school , because he will get it from me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree.
It is all about parenting.
When I was little my Mom corrected any grammatical mistake I made no matter what the situation.
It took me forever to get the cases of personal pronouns straight.
My 6 year old son already has better grammar than many much older kids because I always correct him.
Since I do it nicely, he loves it.
I guess I'm lucky that my son has a love of language.
Someday I'm sure that his friends will become much more of an influence and he will learn texting language and the slang of his generation, and that's just fine because he will be able to switch to real English when he chooses.
Parents with poor grammar will pass it on to their kids unless their kids are unusually motivated or in a first rate school.
I think that poor grammar is a symptom of sloppy thinking.
Sloppy thinking is at the root of our society's problems.
The various political demagogues (thanks spell checker!
) would never be able to get away with the lies and fallacious arguments they spew if most of the country were well trained in rhetoric or formal logic.
Here is the point I would like every parent or potential parent to hear:  If your schools are not doing the job and you can't afford better schools, it is YOUR JOB  to fill in the gaps.
I guarantee that my son will be well versed in logic before he finished high school, because he will get it from me.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979950</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979976</id>
	<title>Re:Spell Checking</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265034600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There's a king of Ched? Wait! Where is Ched?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There 's a king of Ched ?
Wait ! Where is Ched ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There's a king of Ched?
Wait! Where is Ched?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979850</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980854</id>
	<title>Re:And this is how we die</title>
	<author>SnEptUne</author>
	<datestamp>1265038620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The one in Canada is called University of Waterloo, not Waterloo University.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The one in Canada is called University of Waterloo , not Waterloo University .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The one in Canada is called University of Waterloo, not Waterloo University.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979872</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984980</id>
	<title>Re:And this is how we die</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265055480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Teaching is simply not a profession that attracts the best minds, for a mixture of reasons that mostly involve its <b>relatively low status</b>, relatively low pay, and poor working conditions</i></p><p>So true.  Just last week, I stumbled across some neighborhood kids playing "Ineffectual Middle-management suck-ups".  It was so cute to watch them assign action items and go over KPI reports.</p><p>Sure, teachers aren't accorded the status of the POTUS, top-tier rock/sport/movie stars, but to say that they're low status is disingenuous.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Teaching is simply not a profession that attracts the best minds , for a mixture of reasons that mostly involve its relatively low status , relatively low pay , and poor working conditionsSo true .
Just last week , I stumbled across some neighborhood kids playing " Ineffectual Middle-management suck-ups " .
It was so cute to watch them assign action items and go over KPI reports.Sure , teachers are n't accorded the status of the POTUS , top-tier rock/sport/movie stars , but to say that they 're low status is disingenuous .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Teaching is simply not a profession that attracts the best minds, for a mixture of reasons that mostly involve its relatively low status, relatively low pay, and poor working conditionsSo true.
Just last week, I stumbled across some neighborhood kids playing "Ineffectual Middle-management suck-ups".
It was so cute to watch them assign action items and go over KPI reports.Sure, teachers aren't accorded the status of the POTUS, top-tier rock/sport/movie stars, but to say that they're low status is disingenuous.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980148</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984586</id>
	<title>Re:fail test = no admittance</title>
	<author>aclarke</author>
	<datestamp>1265053740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you can't pass a basic English test (ELPE/TOEFL), then you won't be admitted to the University of Waterloo.  This is one of the reasons why applicants fail entrance to UW; they/we must pass an English exam in order to be admitted.  This point is made in TFA.
<br> <br>
As a native English speaker, I found the ELPE to be small potatoes, if you'll pardon my pun.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you ca n't pass a basic English test ( ELPE/TOEFL ) , then you wo n't be admitted to the University of Waterloo .
This is one of the reasons why applicants fail entrance to UW ; they/we must pass an English exam in order to be admitted .
This point is made in TFA .
As a native English speaker , I found the ELPE to be small potatoes , if you 'll pardon my pun .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you can't pass a basic English test (ELPE/TOEFL), then you won't be admitted to the University of Waterloo.
This is one of the reasons why applicants fail entrance to UW; they/we must pass an English exam in order to be admitted.
This point is made in TFA.
As a native English speaker, I found the ELPE to be small potatoes, if you'll pardon my pun.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980408</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30990248</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265033940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> The writing I see from our high school students is worse than that mentioned in the article. Even among students who score relatively well, I get the impression that I am reading a paper written by someone without native English fluency. This is, of course, when they can be made to work on any assignment to begin with. Presently, the majority of the students I am watching as I write this have elected not to open their book and participate. Instead they have chosen to engage themselves in useless, and frankly, inane and nonsensical conversation.</p> </div><p>And what do you do about this? Let me guess, you pass them through anyways, (51\%) ormake them retake it in summer school where they still do a half-assed job but are passed through anyways because "well, they took the class twice. good enough".</p><p>And what about discipline or motivating these kids? Teachers today are too lax. None of them opening their books? Slam yours down, get angry; Tell them everyone is getting a zero if they don't wise up. THen leave the room.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The writing I see from our high school students is worse than that mentioned in the article .
Even among students who score relatively well , I get the impression that I am reading a paper written by someone without native English fluency .
This is , of course , when they can be made to work on any assignment to begin with .
Presently , the majority of the students I am watching as I write this have elected not to open their book and participate .
Instead they have chosen to engage themselves in useless , and frankly , inane and nonsensical conversation .
And what do you do about this ?
Let me guess , you pass them through anyways , ( 51 \ % ) ormake them retake it in summer school where they still do a half-assed job but are passed through anyways because " well , they took the class twice .
good enough " .And what about discipline or motivating these kids ?
Teachers today are too lax .
None of them opening their books ?
Slam yours down , get angry ; Tell them everyone is getting a zero if they do n't wise up .
THen leave the room .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> The writing I see from our high school students is worse than that mentioned in the article.
Even among students who score relatively well, I get the impression that I am reading a paper written by someone without native English fluency.
This is, of course, when they can be made to work on any assignment to begin with.
Presently, the majority of the students I am watching as I write this have elected not to open their book and participate.
Instead they have chosen to engage themselves in useless, and frankly, inane and nonsensical conversation.
And what do you do about this?
Let me guess, you pass them through anyways, (51\%) ormake them retake it in summer school where they still do a half-assed job but are passed through anyways because "well, they took the class twice.
good enough".And what about discipline or motivating these kids?
Teachers today are too lax.
None of them opening their books?
Slam yours down, get angry; Tell them everyone is getting a zero if they don't wise up.
THen leave the room.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981088</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984456</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>laederkeps</author>
	<datestamp>1265053140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Presently, the majority of the students I am watching as I write this have elected not to open their book and participate. Instead they have chosen to engage themselves in useless, and frankly, inane and nonsensical conversation.</p></div><p>Yes, they ought to follow your example and read slashdot during class!<br>
At least in this thread you can be certain that every poster has done some proof-reading of their post, lest the grammar nazis catch a whiff of they're (see what I did there?) errors...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Presently , the majority of the students I am watching as I write this have elected not to open their book and participate .
Instead they have chosen to engage themselves in useless , and frankly , inane and nonsensical conversation.Yes , they ought to follow your example and read slashdot during class !
At least in this thread you can be certain that every poster has done some proof-reading of their post , lest the grammar nazis catch a whiff of they 're ( see what I did there ?
) errors.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Presently, the majority of the students I am watching as I write this have elected not to open their book and participate.
Instead they have chosen to engage themselves in useless, and frankly, inane and nonsensical conversation.Yes, they ought to follow your example and read slashdot during class!
At least in this thread you can be certain that every poster has done some proof-reading of their post, lest the grammar nazis catch a whiff of they're (see what I did there?
) errors...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981088</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30988722</id>
	<title>Re:Color me surprised</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265025900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>It's like people have said before my post. Blame the parents who's precious little snowflakes just absolutely can't be doing anything wrong. It must be the fault of the teachers for attempting to uphold standards.</p></div><p>My darling ex (bless her drug addicted troll heart) is studying to be a primary school teacher. She claims she's doing so very well and has nearly finished her course, yet in a recent filing to the court she messed up their/there, know/no (she wrote 'no' in the wrong place), its/it's and most other contractions. Her punctuation was virtually non-existent and looked like it had been applied with a cheese grater. This is the very same woman who is not interested in actually spending time with our kids but wants sole custody (more free money for drugs that way) so she can lock them out the back while she smokes weed all day/night when she's not studying.</p><p>There's no need to blame the parents; the teachers are morons. Teaching (at least here) has one of the lowest entry scores. They all enroll in it to increase their government handout amounts with no intention of pursuing a career. When the course ends the government insists they need a job because they are qualified and cuts off the handouts. What job can a long-term unemployed bludger with a teaching degree get? I'll give you one clue: a teacher. I'd say at a guess, after meeting a sampling of people in that course, that half of them are in the same boat.</p><p>Now I don't insist on blaming the teachers fully. The parents are at fault too. It doesn't take much effort to read with your children each day. By reading they begin to learn. Parents could offer to help with the homework instead of letting the kid tough it out. Both parents and teachers could also actively encourage the kid to think instead of offering them the answers on a plate and expecting them to regurgitate them exactly. Parents should also stop expecting their darling snowflakes to get good grades. If your kid is useless then you need to take responsibility and kick their arse into shape. Don't expect them to be given a grade boost because they 'deserve' it.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's like people have said before my post .
Blame the parents who 's precious little snowflakes just absolutely ca n't be doing anything wrong .
It must be the fault of the teachers for attempting to uphold standards.My darling ex ( bless her drug addicted troll heart ) is studying to be a primary school teacher .
She claims she 's doing so very well and has nearly finished her course , yet in a recent filing to the court she messed up their/there , know/no ( she wrote 'no ' in the wrong place ) , its/it 's and most other contractions .
Her punctuation was virtually non-existent and looked like it had been applied with a cheese grater .
This is the very same woman who is not interested in actually spending time with our kids but wants sole custody ( more free money for drugs that way ) so she can lock them out the back while she smokes weed all day/night when she 's not studying.There 's no need to blame the parents ; the teachers are morons .
Teaching ( at least here ) has one of the lowest entry scores .
They all enroll in it to increase their government handout amounts with no intention of pursuing a career .
When the course ends the government insists they need a job because they are qualified and cuts off the handouts .
What job can a long-term unemployed bludger with a teaching degree get ?
I 'll give you one clue : a teacher .
I 'd say at a guess , after meeting a sampling of people in that course , that half of them are in the same boat.Now I do n't insist on blaming the teachers fully .
The parents are at fault too .
It does n't take much effort to read with your children each day .
By reading they begin to learn .
Parents could offer to help with the homework instead of letting the kid tough it out .
Both parents and teachers could also actively encourage the kid to think instead of offering them the answers on a plate and expecting them to regurgitate them exactly .
Parents should also stop expecting their darling snowflakes to get good grades .
If your kid is useless then you need to take responsibility and kick their arse into shape .
Do n't expect them to be given a grade boost because they 'deserve ' it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's like people have said before my post.
Blame the parents who's precious little snowflakes just absolutely can't be doing anything wrong.
It must be the fault of the teachers for attempting to uphold standards.My darling ex (bless her drug addicted troll heart) is studying to be a primary school teacher.
She claims she's doing so very well and has nearly finished her course, yet in a recent filing to the court she messed up their/there, know/no (she wrote 'no' in the wrong place), its/it's and most other contractions.
Her punctuation was virtually non-existent and looked like it had been applied with a cheese grater.
This is the very same woman who is not interested in actually spending time with our kids but wants sole custody (more free money for drugs that way) so she can lock them out the back while she smokes weed all day/night when she's not studying.There's no need to blame the parents; the teachers are morons.
Teaching (at least here) has one of the lowest entry scores.
They all enroll in it to increase their government handout amounts with no intention of pursuing a career.
When the course ends the government insists they need a job because they are qualified and cuts off the handouts.
What job can a long-term unemployed bludger with a teaching degree get?
I'll give you one clue: a teacher.
I'd say at a guess, after meeting a sampling of people in that course, that half of them are in the same boat.Now I don't insist on blaming the teachers fully.
The parents are at fault too.
It doesn't take much effort to read with your children each day.
By reading they begin to learn.
Parents could offer to help with the homework instead of letting the kid tough it out.
Both parents and teachers could also actively encourage the kid to think instead of offering them the answers on a plate and expecting them to regurgitate them exactly.
Parents should also stop expecting their darling snowflakes to get good grades.
If your kid is useless then you need to take responsibility and kick their arse into shape.
Don't expect them to be given a grade boost because they 'deserve' it.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981970</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982990</id>
	<title>Re:priorities</title>
	<author>ex\_ottoyuhr</author>
	<datestamp>1265047080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Defining religion as believing in things and science as examining things is a misleading approach. By your logic, Behaviorism, Communism, and Fascism are religions, and Catholicism is a science. (Catholic theology includes a number of conditions which, if true, refute the Catholic religion -- two contradictory infallible statements being the most obvious case.) I would agree with all of these propositions, as it happens, but I don't think that's what you intended people to come away from your post with. I agree that thinking doesn't have much of a lobby; but those who are not part of the rational-thought lobby include the people who most energetically assert that they are.</p><p>Also remember that "religion" is a very big word, with very blurry borders. Is Nietzche a religion? Is atheism? Is Buddhism? (Some of the greatest Indian Buddhists would say that it is not.) If being a religion requires being mutually exclusive with other religions, Greek paganism was not a religion (most of the time), China and Japan have never had religions (not even Mahayana Buddhism or State Shinto would qualify), and even Christianity's status as a religion is somewhat dubious -- look up the beliefs of the Taiping sometime.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Defining religion as believing in things and science as examining things is a misleading approach .
By your logic , Behaviorism , Communism , and Fascism are religions , and Catholicism is a science .
( Catholic theology includes a number of conditions which , if true , refute the Catholic religion -- two contradictory infallible statements being the most obvious case .
) I would agree with all of these propositions , as it happens , but I do n't think that 's what you intended people to come away from your post with .
I agree that thinking does n't have much of a lobby ; but those who are not part of the rational-thought lobby include the people who most energetically assert that they are.Also remember that " religion " is a very big word , with very blurry borders .
Is Nietzche a religion ?
Is atheism ?
Is Buddhism ?
( Some of the greatest Indian Buddhists would say that it is not .
) If being a religion requires being mutually exclusive with other religions , Greek paganism was not a religion ( most of the time ) , China and Japan have never had religions ( not even Mahayana Buddhism or State Shinto would qualify ) , and even Christianity 's status as a religion is somewhat dubious -- look up the beliefs of the Taiping sometime .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Defining religion as believing in things and science as examining things is a misleading approach.
By your logic, Behaviorism, Communism, and Fascism are religions, and Catholicism is a science.
(Catholic theology includes a number of conditions which, if true, refute the Catholic religion -- two contradictory infallible statements being the most obvious case.
) I would agree with all of these propositions, as it happens, but I don't think that's what you intended people to come away from your post with.
I agree that thinking doesn't have much of a lobby; but those who are not part of the rational-thought lobby include the people who most energetically assert that they are.Also remember that "religion" is a very big word, with very blurry borders.
Is Nietzche a religion?
Is atheism?
Is Buddhism?
(Some of the greatest Indian Buddhists would say that it is not.
) If being a religion requires being mutually exclusive with other religions, Greek paganism was not a religion (most of the time), China and Japan have never had religions (not even Mahayana Buddhism or State Shinto would qualify), and even Christianity's status as a religion is somewhat dubious -- look up the beliefs of the Taiping sometime.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980304</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982148</id>
	<title>Re:Not a new thing</title>
	<author>U96</author>
	<datestamp>1265043840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Get out your Fowler's. "Due to" has been used to mean "because of" in the Queen's English since 1955 - and I mean literally in a speech she made to parliament.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Get out your Fowler 's .
" Due to " has been used to mean " because of " in the Queen 's English since 1955 - and I mean literally in a speech she made to parliament .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Get out your Fowler's.
"Due to" has been used to mean "because of" in the Queen's English since 1955 - and I mean literally in a speech she made to parliament.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980942</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983098</id>
	<title>Isaac Asimov had it Right</title>
	<author>ideonexus</author>
	<datestamp>1265047560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
It was Isaac Asimov's opinion that the nonsensical nature of the English language is a major contributor to poor grammar and illiteracy in the United States. There are no spelling standards in our language, different letters can represent different sounds depending on the context, and grammar rules are unnecessarily complex. Asimov, President of Mensa and author of hundreds of books, thought that we should revamp the written word to spell things phonetically and do away with much of the silly grammar rules that only please those individuals so pedantic as to master them.
</p><p>
And whose standards are we talking about here? MLA style? Chicago? There are half a dozen different ways to place the commas in a list of items depending on the standard to which you are writing. That's why I find it hilarious when people make fun of others for poor grammar. Anyone who speaks and writes in a language as ridiculous and nonsensical as English has no right to criticize people who speak Ebonics, misplace i's and e's, or write words phonetically on MySpace.
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It was Isaac Asimov 's opinion that the nonsensical nature of the English language is a major contributor to poor grammar and illiteracy in the United States .
There are no spelling standards in our language , different letters can represent different sounds depending on the context , and grammar rules are unnecessarily complex .
Asimov , President of Mensa and author of hundreds of books , thought that we should revamp the written word to spell things phonetically and do away with much of the silly grammar rules that only please those individuals so pedantic as to master them .
And whose standards are we talking about here ?
MLA style ?
Chicago ? There are half a dozen different ways to place the commas in a list of items depending on the standard to which you are writing .
That 's why I find it hilarious when people make fun of others for poor grammar .
Anyone who speaks and writes in a language as ridiculous and nonsensical as English has no right to criticize people who speak Ebonics , misplace i 's and e 's , or write words phonetically on MySpace .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
It was Isaac Asimov's opinion that the nonsensical nature of the English language is a major contributor to poor grammar and illiteracy in the United States.
There are no spelling standards in our language, different letters can represent different sounds depending on the context, and grammar rules are unnecessarily complex.
Asimov, President of Mensa and author of hundreds of books, thought that we should revamp the written word to spell things phonetically and do away with much of the silly grammar rules that only please those individuals so pedantic as to master them.
And whose standards are we talking about here?
MLA style?
Chicago? There are half a dozen different ways to place the commas in a list of items depending on the standard to which you are writing.
That's why I find it hilarious when people make fun of others for poor grammar.
Anyone who speaks and writes in a language as ridiculous and nonsensical as English has no right to criticize people who speak Ebonics, misplace i's and e's, or write words phonetically on MySpace.
</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981388</id>
	<title>Proof is in the pudding our school systems sucks</title>
	<author>hesaigo999ca</author>
	<datestamp>1265040840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If we take this as proof that our school system's broken and that any one able to get accepted into university or college, should be able to speak and write english, and you are telling me this is not the case, i look back at all those people that pushed for a more lenient<br>system for their kids because their kids were lazy, instead of pushing to motivate them to learn more.</p><p>Kids will learn what they are interested in. They will learn the mortal kombat fight finish combo for each character, they will learn how to farm gold on any MMO rpg game, they will even learn how to brake and enter, steal cars, mma fighting etc, etc...the list goes on.<br>These things are cool, and interesting to them. How to make learning fun and creative to the new mind.</p><p>Well it falls on the teachers that do not want to spark that fire in their students soul, it falls on the parents that are too lazy<br>or unaware of what their kids are into, and how to motivate them. I am not jewish and I definitely think they are not THE race, but jews (the tight community that most never get to see) although having a moral dilemma on how they get their message across, brainwashing or whatever you want to call it, have an effective means of pushing academy, and smarts to their young.</p><p>At a young age, they get into counting their piggy bank money over and over. They get into calculating how many allowances<br>it takes to get their "toy", however, they also know if they do not buy their toy, and invest into a shovel to shovel sidewalks, they get even more money....then instead of doing the hard labor, they help out their friends buy shovels, and all the friends earn money, with some money going back to the one that lent it in the first place.</p><p>Yes jews have short comings in social aspects when dealing with others not of their kin, but take their efforts at instilling good values in their young at an early age, and you have to respect that no matter what. That is not to say all jews are made equal, I know some jewish parents that have fallen into the rut of not being present in their child's life and ending up with a very troubled kid...<br>but all that aside, the ratio is high. Much higher then the norm for the average amercian (non jew) that is screaming , "why?"</p><p>ps - again, i am not jewish, and not rasict but i do tend to see the patterns...this is one of them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If we take this as proof that our school system 's broken and that any one able to get accepted into university or college , should be able to speak and write english , and you are telling me this is not the case , i look back at all those people that pushed for a more lenientsystem for their kids because their kids were lazy , instead of pushing to motivate them to learn more.Kids will learn what they are interested in .
They will learn the mortal kombat fight finish combo for each character , they will learn how to farm gold on any MMO rpg game , they will even learn how to brake and enter , steal cars , mma fighting etc , etc...the list goes on.These things are cool , and interesting to them .
How to make learning fun and creative to the new mind.Well it falls on the teachers that do not want to spark that fire in their students soul , it falls on the parents that are too lazyor unaware of what their kids are into , and how to motivate them .
I am not jewish and I definitely think they are not THE race , but jews ( the tight community that most never get to see ) although having a moral dilemma on how they get their message across , brainwashing or whatever you want to call it , have an effective means of pushing academy , and smarts to their young.At a young age , they get into counting their piggy bank money over and over .
They get into calculating how many allowancesit takes to get their " toy " , however , they also know if they do not buy their toy , and invest into a shovel to shovel sidewalks , they get even more money....then instead of doing the hard labor , they help out their friends buy shovels , and all the friends earn money , with some money going back to the one that lent it in the first place.Yes jews have short comings in social aspects when dealing with others not of their kin , but take their efforts at instilling good values in their young at an early age , and you have to respect that no matter what .
That is not to say all jews are made equal , I know some jewish parents that have fallen into the rut of not being present in their child 's life and ending up with a very troubled kid...but all that aside , the ratio is high .
Much higher then the norm for the average amercian ( non jew ) that is screaming , " why ?
" ps - again , i am not jewish , and not rasict but i do tend to see the patterns...this is one of them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If we take this as proof that our school system's broken and that any one able to get accepted into university or college, should be able to speak and write english, and you are telling me this is not the case, i look back at all those people that pushed for a more lenientsystem for their kids because their kids were lazy, instead of pushing to motivate them to learn more.Kids will learn what they are interested in.
They will learn the mortal kombat fight finish combo for each character, they will learn how to farm gold on any MMO rpg game, they will even learn how to brake and enter, steal cars, mma fighting etc, etc...the list goes on.These things are cool, and interesting to them.
How to make learning fun and creative to the new mind.Well it falls on the teachers that do not want to spark that fire in their students soul, it falls on the parents that are too lazyor unaware of what their kids are into, and how to motivate them.
I am not jewish and I definitely think they are not THE race, but jews (the tight community that most never get to see) although having a moral dilemma on how they get their message across, brainwashing or whatever you want to call it, have an effective means of pushing academy, and smarts to their young.At a young age, they get into counting their piggy bank money over and over.
They get into calculating how many allowancesit takes to get their "toy", however, they also know if they do not buy their toy, and invest into a shovel to shovel sidewalks, they get even more money....then instead of doing the hard labor, they help out their friends buy shovels, and all the friends earn money, with some money going back to the one that lent it in the first place.Yes jews have short comings in social aspects when dealing with others not of their kin, but take their efforts at instilling good values in their young at an early age, and you have to respect that no matter what.
That is not to say all jews are made equal, I know some jewish parents that have fallen into the rut of not being present in their child's life and ending up with a very troubled kid...but all that aside, the ratio is high.
Much higher then the norm for the average amercian (non jew) that is screaming , "why?
"ps - again, i am not jewish, and not rasict but i do tend to see the patterns...this is one of them.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980310</id>
	<title>Foreign students at University of Waterloo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265036220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>I have a degree in Civil Engineering from the University of Waterloo and I live in the region still.  One of the reasons that UW has so many people failing the ELPE (English Language Proficiency Exam), and one of the reasons it requires the test in the first place, is because of the numbers of foreign students at the university.
<br> <br>
Waterloo has, I believe, the largest math and computer science programmes in the world.  It also what is generally regarded as Canada's best engineering school.  These hard science and engineering programmes attract a large number of far eastern students.  When I was in school in the '90s, you'd have been more likely to hear Cantonese than English if you wandered around the Math building.  I don't want to generalise, but many of these students probably come to Waterloo because they can get a great education in a programme that doesn't require them to speak perfect English, and where they have a large number of their peers.
<br> <br>
Probably one of the reasons that Waterloo students fail the ELPE in such high numbers is that many of them are foreigners for whom English is a second, third, or fourth language.  I only wish I spoke multiple languages as well as many Waterloo students speak English.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have a degree in Civil Engineering from the University of Waterloo and I live in the region still .
One of the reasons that UW has so many people failing the ELPE ( English Language Proficiency Exam ) , and one of the reasons it requires the test in the first place , is because of the numbers of foreign students at the university .
Waterloo has , I believe , the largest math and computer science programmes in the world .
It also what is generally regarded as Canada 's best engineering school .
These hard science and engineering programmes attract a large number of far eastern students .
When I was in school in the '90s , you 'd have been more likely to hear Cantonese than English if you wandered around the Math building .
I do n't want to generalise , but many of these students probably come to Waterloo because they can get a great education in a programme that does n't require them to speak perfect English , and where they have a large number of their peers .
Probably one of the reasons that Waterloo students fail the ELPE in such high numbers is that many of them are foreigners for whom English is a second , third , or fourth language .
I only wish I spoke multiple languages as well as many Waterloo students speak English .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have a degree in Civil Engineering from the University of Waterloo and I live in the region still.
One of the reasons that UW has so many people failing the ELPE (English Language Proficiency Exam), and one of the reasons it requires the test in the first place, is because of the numbers of foreign students at the university.
Waterloo has, I believe, the largest math and computer science programmes in the world.
It also what is generally regarded as Canada's best engineering school.
These hard science and engineering programmes attract a large number of far eastern students.
When I was in school in the '90s, you'd have been more likely to hear Cantonese than English if you wandered around the Math building.
I don't want to generalise, but many of these students probably come to Waterloo because they can get a great education in a programme that doesn't require them to speak perfect English, and where they have a large number of their peers.
Probably one of the reasons that Waterloo students fail the ELPE in such high numbers is that many of them are foreigners for whom English is a second, third, or fourth language.
I only wish I spoke multiple languages as well as many Waterloo students speak English.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980196</id>
	<title>Re:Universities can't keep up</title>
	<author>TheRaven64</author>
	<datestamp>1265035560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Language is about communication.  You aren't supposed to use dialect terms or syntax in publications because a lot of the people reading it won't be native speakers.  You and I know what 'cuz' means, but what about the reader whose first language is French, Spanish, Hindi, or Mandarin?  It works for us because we can do the phonetic transform, but a native French speaker will wonder what 'coos' is meant to be short for or mean, and will have to look it up.  </p><p>
The tiny fraction of a second that you save typing cuz instead of because will cause people reading your paper to have to spend several seconds looking it up.  The total time wasted, if more than a few people read your paper, will be several minutes.  Wasting minutes of other people's time to save you a fraction of a second is incredibly impolite.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Language is about communication .
You are n't supposed to use dialect terms or syntax in publications because a lot of the people reading it wo n't be native speakers .
You and I know what 'cuz ' means , but what about the reader whose first language is French , Spanish , Hindi , or Mandarin ?
It works for us because we can do the phonetic transform , but a native French speaker will wonder what 'coos ' is meant to be short for or mean , and will have to look it up .
The tiny fraction of a second that you save typing cuz instead of because will cause people reading your paper to have to spend several seconds looking it up .
The total time wasted , if more than a few people read your paper , will be several minutes .
Wasting minutes of other people 's time to save you a fraction of a second is incredibly impolite .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Language is about communication.
You aren't supposed to use dialect terms or syntax in publications because a lot of the people reading it won't be native speakers.
You and I know what 'cuz' means, but what about the reader whose first language is French, Spanish, Hindi, or Mandarin?
It works for us because we can do the phonetic transform, but a native French speaker will wonder what 'coos' is meant to be short for or mean, and will have to look it up.
The tiny fraction of a second that you save typing cuz instead of because will cause people reading your paper to have to spend several seconds looking it up.
The total time wasted, if more than a few people read your paper, will be several minutes.
Wasting minutes of other people's time to save you a fraction of a second is incredibly impolite.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979892</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980336</id>
	<title>Texting it not at fault.</title>
	<author>Max Romantschuk</author>
	<datestamp>1265036280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The error is simply sub-standard education. We already have a whole generation of people here in Finland who have been using phones and IM for ages. (Everyone had cell phones when I was in high school, and I've passed thirty.) But we also have (for now) a rather good educational system. Taught right, people can distinguish informal and formal writing properly.</p><p>One thing I've never understood about the US system: Why do you people think kids have to learn to read at such a young age? Is it just peer pressure? Here most kids learn to read at the age of seven, and yet we seem to be doing just fine compared to a lot of places. Early education here centers a lot on letting kids be kids and develop "normally", whatever that is...<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The error is simply sub-standard education .
We already have a whole generation of people here in Finland who have been using phones and IM for ages .
( Everyone had cell phones when I was in high school , and I 've passed thirty .
) But we also have ( for now ) a rather good educational system .
Taught right , people can distinguish informal and formal writing properly.One thing I 've never understood about the US system : Why do you people think kids have to learn to read at such a young age ?
Is it just peer pressure ?
Here most kids learn to read at the age of seven , and yet we seem to be doing just fine compared to a lot of places .
Early education here centers a lot on letting kids be kids and develop " normally " , whatever that is... ; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The error is simply sub-standard education.
We already have a whole generation of people here in Finland who have been using phones and IM for ages.
(Everyone had cell phones when I was in high school, and I've passed thirty.
) But we also have (for now) a rather good educational system.
Taught right, people can distinguish informal and formal writing properly.One thing I've never understood about the US system: Why do you people think kids have to learn to read at such a young age?
Is it just peer pressure?
Here most kids learn to read at the age of seven, and yet we seem to be doing just fine compared to a lot of places.
Early education here centers a lot on letting kids be kids and develop "normally", whatever that is... ;)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979968</id>
	<title>UW has a lot of foreign students</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265034600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What percentage of freshman students at UW are from Hong Kong?</p><p>Just sayin', is all.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What percentage of freshman students at UW are from Hong Kong ? Just sayin ' , is all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What percentage of freshman students at UW are from Hong Kong?Just sayin', is all.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983556</id>
	<title>"Thereae sunnan beorthnan is comman to richan and</title>
	<author>unity100</author>
	<datestamp>1265049360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>pooran"<nobr> <wbr></nobr>....<br>there. ancient anglosaxon. says "Sun's brightness is common to rich and poor".</p><p>languages are living things, by their definition. they evolve. and evolution comes from people. in some time, 'cuz' is going to be accepted as another form of because. just like how sun took place of sunnan. that is the way of things. and no amount of elitism or grammar nazism or jacobinism is going to change it. for, how the language evolves is decided by the people en masse. few things are less democratic. had you been speaking with the 'proper' english you have now back in 1750, you would be despised and ridiculed as some commoner speaking a lowly common accent. however those days' common lowly english is today's formal english. because languages evolve.</p><p>people should get used up to this fact.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>pooran " ....there .
ancient anglosaxon .
says " Sun 's brightness is common to rich and poor " .languages are living things , by their definition .
they evolve .
and evolution comes from people .
in some time , 'cuz ' is going to be accepted as another form of because .
just like how sun took place of sunnan .
that is the way of things .
and no amount of elitism or grammar nazism or jacobinism is going to change it .
for , how the language evolves is decided by the people en masse .
few things are less democratic .
had you been speaking with the 'proper ' english you have now back in 1750 , you would be despised and ridiculed as some commoner speaking a lowly common accent .
however those days ' common lowly english is today 's formal english .
because languages evolve.people should get used up to this fact .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>pooran" ....there.
ancient anglosaxon.
says "Sun's brightness is common to rich and poor".languages are living things, by their definition.
they evolve.
and evolution comes from people.
in some time, 'cuz' is going to be accepted as another form of because.
just like how sun took place of sunnan.
that is the way of things.
and no amount of elitism or grammar nazism or jacobinism is going to change it.
for, how the language evolves is decided by the people en masse.
few things are less democratic.
had you been speaking with the 'proper' english you have now back in 1750, you would be despised and ridiculed as some commoner speaking a lowly common accent.
however those days' common lowly english is today's formal english.
because languages evolve.people should get used up to this fact.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983006</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>noidentity</author>
	<datestamp>1265047140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>I am currently the instructor in a high school Chemistry course (at least for the day).</p></div>
</blockquote><p>I'm curious as to why you capitalized chemistry above. As far as I can tell, <a href="http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/understanding-capitalization.aspx" title="quickanddirtytips.com">it shouldn't be</a> [quickanddirtytips.com].</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I am currently the instructor in a high school Chemistry course ( at least for the day ) .
I 'm curious as to why you capitalized chemistry above .
As far as I can tell , it should n't be [ quickanddirtytips.com ] .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am currently the instructor in a high school Chemistry course (at least for the day).
I'm curious as to why you capitalized chemistry above.
As far as I can tell, it shouldn't be [quickanddirtytips.com].
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981088</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30992070</id>
	<title>Re:A few thoughts from a professional English teac</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265051700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Paragraph breaks: learn to use them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Paragraph breaks : learn to use them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Paragraph breaks: learn to use them.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981646</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30993014</id>
	<title>Re:Just out of curiousity...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265110260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&lsquo;What&rsquo;s it going to be then, eh?&rsquo;<br>There was me, that is Alex, and my three droogs, that is Pete, Georgie, and Dim, Dim being really dim, and we sat in the Korova Milkbar making up our rassoodocks what to do with the evening, a flip dark chill winter bastard though dry.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>   What    s it going to be then , eh ?    There was me , that is Alex , and my three droogs , that is Pete , Georgie , and Dim , Dim being really dim , and we sat in the Korova Milkbar making up our rassoodocks what to do with the evening , a flip dark chill winter bastard though dry .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>‘What’s it going to be then, eh?’There was me, that is Alex, and my three droogs, that is Pete, Georgie, and Dim, Dim being really dim, and we sat in the Korova Milkbar making up our rassoodocks what to do with the evening, a flip dark chill winter bastard though dry.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979898</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980514</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe its the school thats failing</title>
	<author>Kartoffel</author>
	<datestamp>1265037000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Maybe.  Although more likely I suspect the failed students don't understand *any* type of grammar, traditional or otherwise.  Inability to use proper English indicates the students are poorly read and have little experience writing English.  University educations require reading modern literature which, last time I checked, was written in English rather than omgwtfbbq.</p><p>Name just 1 scholarly journal thats writaen n txt spk then maybe u got a point.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Maybe .
Although more likely I suspect the failed students do n't understand * any * type of grammar , traditional or otherwise .
Inability to use proper English indicates the students are poorly read and have little experience writing English .
University educations require reading modern literature which , last time I checked , was written in English rather than omgwtfbbq.Name just 1 scholarly journal thats writaen n txt spk then maybe u got a point .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maybe.
Although more likely I suspect the failed students don't understand *any* type of grammar, traditional or otherwise.
Inability to use proper English indicates the students are poorly read and have little experience writing English.
University educations require reading modern literature which, last time I checked, was written in English rather than omgwtfbbq.Name just 1 scholarly journal thats writaen n txt spk then maybe u got a point.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980058</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980394</id>
	<title>Re:Just out of curiousity...</title>
	<author>xep</author>
	<datestamp>1265036520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>What part of speech is "eh?"</p></div><p>
Punctuation!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>What part of speech is " eh ?
" Punctuation !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What part of speech is "eh?
"
Punctuation!
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979898</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980736</id>
	<title>YOU DIDN'T CLOSE YOUR PARENTHESIS!</title>
	<author>ClintJCL</author>
	<datestamp>1265038080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think the editor who wrote this summary should be given an F in english for not even being able to close his parenthesis.
<p>
Nevermind that  this creates a <i>compilation error</i>!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think the editor who wrote this summary should be given an F in english for not even being able to close his parenthesis .
Nevermind that this creates a compilation error !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think the editor who wrote this summary should be given an F in english for not even being able to close his parenthesis.
Nevermind that  this creates a compilation error!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982534</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265045280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The problem is that the schools and teachers are judged by the test scores.</p><p>Need I say more?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem is that the schools and teachers are judged by the test scores.Need I say more ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem is that the schools and teachers are judged by the test scores.Need I say more?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980460</id>
	<title>Good luck getting a job.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265036820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The "english iz evolving, get over it and STFU" crowd are missing an important point.  These people are presumably going to college  because they want to get a decent job, not to strike a blow against language fascism.</p><p>I work at a Big 10 university.  When companies come to campus to interview graduating job-seekers, the kids still dress up in suits and ties.  Why?  Isn't fashion always evolving?  Shouldn't they just wear what they always wear?</p><p>We all know why-- there are certain formalities that must be observed if one wants to be taken seriously by the bad old Establishment.  Your use of language falls in the same category.  How do you expect to get a serious job with a serious company if you can't string a grammatically correct, coherent sentence together?</p><p>So, if you always wanted to be a lumberjack, or a commune-squatting hippie, don't sweat your grammar.  Don't bother applying to a university, either.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The " english iz evolving , get over it and STFU " crowd are missing an important point .
These people are presumably going to college because they want to get a decent job , not to strike a blow against language fascism.I work at a Big 10 university .
When companies come to campus to interview graduating job-seekers , the kids still dress up in suits and ties .
Why ? Is n't fashion always evolving ?
Should n't they just wear what they always wear ? We all know why-- there are certain formalities that must be observed if one wants to be taken seriously by the bad old Establishment .
Your use of language falls in the same category .
How do you expect to get a serious job with a serious company if you ca n't string a grammatically correct , coherent sentence together ? So , if you always wanted to be a lumberjack , or a commune-squatting hippie , do n't sweat your grammar .
Do n't bother applying to a university , either .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The "english iz evolving, get over it and STFU" crowd are missing an important point.
These people are presumably going to college  because they want to get a decent job, not to strike a blow against language fascism.I work at a Big 10 university.
When companies come to campus to interview graduating job-seekers, the kids still dress up in suits and ties.
Why?  Isn't fashion always evolving?
Shouldn't they just wear what they always wear?We all know why-- there are certain formalities that must be observed if one wants to be taken seriously by the bad old Establishment.
Your use of language falls in the same category.
How do you expect to get a serious job with a serious company if you can't string a grammatically correct, coherent sentence together?So, if you always wanted to be a lumberjack, or a commune-squatting hippie, don't sweat your grammar.
Don't bother applying to a university, either.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983260</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>nxtw</author>
	<datestamp>1265048160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>So it's no shock that these kids, of which very little was ever demanded or expected of them, should suddenly find themselves failing college once the gloves come off.</p></div></blockquote><p>I like to think the cause is much simpler: colleges have <a href="http://www.census.gov/statab/hist/HS-21.pdf" title="census.gov">increased enrollment considerably</a> [census.gov], and in order to do so, reduced their admissions standards.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>So it 's no shock that these kids , of which very little was ever demanded or expected of them , should suddenly find themselves failing college once the gloves come off.I like to think the cause is much simpler : colleges have increased enrollment considerably [ census.gov ] , and in order to do so , reduced their admissions standards .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So it's no shock that these kids, of which very little was ever demanded or expected of them, should suddenly find themselves failing college once the gloves come off.I like to think the cause is much simpler: colleges have increased enrollment considerably [census.gov], and in order to do so, reduced their admissions standards.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979950</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30985480</id>
	<title>Who cares about grammar?</title>
	<author>xxuserxx</author>
	<datestamp>1265057220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Who gives a crap about grammar?  F7 my friends.  Id rather spend my time studying Hyper-V or brusing up on my binary.  My boss does not care about my grammar as long as I dont sound like an idiot.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Who gives a crap about grammar ?
F7 my friends .
Id rather spend my time studying Hyper-V or brusing up on my binary .
My boss does not care about my grammar as long as I dont sound like an idiot .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Who gives a crap about grammar?
F7 my friends.
Id rather spend my time studying Hyper-V or brusing up on my binary.
My boss does not care about my grammar as long as I dont sound like an idiot.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980058</id>
	<title>Maybe its the school thats failing</title>
	<author>plague911</author>
	<datestamp>1265035020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Did anyone every stop to consider that language is evolving and that it is the traditional grammar which is failing to keep up with modern society?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Did anyone every stop to consider that language is evolving and that it is the traditional grammar which is failing to keep up with modern society ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Did anyone every stop to consider that language is evolving and that it is the traditional grammar which is failing to keep up with modern society?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982832</id>
	<title>Re:Color me surprised</title>
	<author>dcollins</author>
	<datestamp>1265046480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Phonics is a widely used method of teaching to read and decode words" (per Wikipedia); it's not intrinsically about writing. In other words, phonics is a bootstrap mechanism for getting into the world of the written word, emphasizing reading first. You still have to dedicate yourself to proper spelling instruction during writing, as a separate issue, at a slightly later time. IMO the theory and results are much stronger than the inherently nonsensical "whole word" reading approach.</p><p>"Blame the parents <b>who's</b> precious little snowflakes just absolutely can't be doing anything wrong."</p><p>You don't say.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Phonics is a widely used method of teaching to read and decode words " ( per Wikipedia ) ; it 's not intrinsically about writing .
In other words , phonics is a bootstrap mechanism for getting into the world of the written word , emphasizing reading first .
You still have to dedicate yourself to proper spelling instruction during writing , as a separate issue , at a slightly later time .
IMO the theory and results are much stronger than the inherently nonsensical " whole word " reading approach .
" Blame the parents who 's precious little snowflakes just absolutely ca n't be doing anything wrong .
" You do n't say .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Phonics is a widely used method of teaching to read and decode words" (per Wikipedia); it's not intrinsically about writing.
In other words, phonics is a bootstrap mechanism for getting into the world of the written word, emphasizing reading first.
You still have to dedicate yourself to proper spelling instruction during writing, as a separate issue, at a slightly later time.
IMO the theory and results are much stronger than the inherently nonsensical "whole word" reading approach.
"Blame the parents who's precious little snowflakes just absolutely can't be doing anything wrong.
"You don't say.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981970</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981864</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>GameboyRMH</author>
	<datestamp>1265042640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The driving test makes sure you can follow road rules, who needs to know how to drive the car like some kind of caveman? That's what modern safety standards, electronic nannying devices, deluxe insurance packages and OnStar are for. Get with the times man.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The driving test makes sure you can follow road rules , who needs to know how to drive the car like some kind of caveman ?
That 's what modern safety standards , electronic nannying devices , deluxe insurance packages and OnStar are for .
Get with the times man .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The driving test makes sure you can follow road rules, who needs to know how to drive the car like some kind of caveman?
That's what modern safety standards, electronic nannying devices, deluxe insurance packages and OnStar are for.
Get with the times man.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981216</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981796</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>wvmarle</author>
	<datestamp>1265042400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Probably you (like me, I'm also a non-native) have learnt proper grammar in school. It was at least for me the cornerstone of English teaching.
</p><p>Over the last few years I have been tutoring English. Knowing all those grammar rules from having had to learn them inside out really works. I can imagine many native speakers don't know the rules so well -  I know that I know the English grammar better than I know Dutch. The rules that is. That doesn't mean my English is better or so, though I do my best.
</p><p>Oh and as an employer I do tend to toss out resumes with too horrible language. Though my applicants being Chinese I know not to expect perfect language. I do however expect use of a spell checker.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Probably you ( like me , I 'm also a non-native ) have learnt proper grammar in school .
It was at least for me the cornerstone of English teaching .
Over the last few years I have been tutoring English .
Knowing all those grammar rules from having had to learn them inside out really works .
I can imagine many native speakers do n't know the rules so well - I know that I know the English grammar better than I know Dutch .
The rules that is .
That does n't mean my English is better or so , though I do my best .
Oh and as an employer I do tend to toss out resumes with too horrible language .
Though my applicants being Chinese I know not to expect perfect language .
I do however expect use of a spell checker .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Probably you (like me, I'm also a non-native) have learnt proper grammar in school.
It was at least for me the cornerstone of English teaching.
Over the last few years I have been tutoring English.
Knowing all those grammar rules from having had to learn them inside out really works.
I can imagine many native speakers don't know the rules so well -  I know that I know the English grammar better than I know Dutch.
The rules that is.
That doesn't mean my English is better or so, though I do my best.
Oh and as an employer I do tend to toss out resumes with too horrible language.
Though my applicants being Chinese I know not to expect perfect language.
I do however expect use of a spell checker.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980048</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980082</id>
	<title>Re:Spell Checking</title>
	<author>Tim C</author>
	<datestamp>1265035140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>He says spelling is getting better, but grammar is getting worse. That would be perfectly consistent with using a spell checker and not realising that it's suggested a grammatically-incorrect but properly spelled word.</p><p>I don't think he's implying that people are getting better at spelling, just that the number of spelling mistakes he sees is dropping.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>He says spelling is getting better , but grammar is getting worse .
That would be perfectly consistent with using a spell checker and not realising that it 's suggested a grammatically-incorrect but properly spelled word.I do n't think he 's implying that people are getting better at spelling , just that the number of spelling mistakes he sees is dropping .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>He says spelling is getting better, but grammar is getting worse.
That would be perfectly consistent with using a spell checker and not realising that it's suggested a grammatically-incorrect but properly spelled word.I don't think he's implying that people are getting better at spelling, just that the number of spelling mistakes he sees is dropping.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979850</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980720</id>
	<title>Re:And this is how we die</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265038020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I would like to point out that despite all this fearmongering, the marks on the ELPE tend to be amazingly bad. I would never use 'cuz' in a sentence, and whenever I see apostrophe abuse it drives me nuts, and yet I got 65\% on it, the threshold for passing. To use it as a data point for the decline of society would be fallacious without figuring out why they are failing people. People who can't write formally without contracting 'because' to 'cuz' have serious issues, but this article still sounds like a classic fearmongering article to me.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I would like to point out that despite all this fearmongering , the marks on the ELPE tend to be amazingly bad .
I would never use 'cuz ' in a sentence , and whenever I see apostrophe abuse it drives me nuts , and yet I got 65 \ % on it , the threshold for passing .
To use it as a data point for the decline of society would be fallacious without figuring out why they are failing people .
People who ca n't write formally without contracting 'because ' to 'cuz ' have serious issues , but this article still sounds like a classic fearmongering article to me .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would like to point out that despite all this fearmongering, the marks on the ELPE tend to be amazingly bad.
I would never use 'cuz' in a sentence, and whenever I see apostrophe abuse it drives me nuts, and yet I got 65\% on it, the threshold for passing.
To use it as a data point for the decline of society would be fallacious without figuring out why they are failing people.
People who can't write formally without contracting 'because' to 'cuz' have serious issues, but this article still sounds like a classic fearmongering article to me.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979882</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30988256</id>
	<title>Re:And this is how we die</title>
	<author>thethibs</author>
	<datestamp>1265024100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>What's truly amazing is that you understood that abomination of a sentence well enough to respond to it. I must be slipping--I thought sure I could punctuate it into sensibility but I'm stumped.</htmltext>
<tokenext>What 's truly amazing is that you understood that abomination of a sentence well enough to respond to it .
I must be slipping--I thought sure I could punctuate it into sensibility but I 'm stumped .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What's truly amazing is that you understood that abomination of a sentence well enough to respond to it.
I must be slipping--I thought sure I could punctuate it into sensibility but I'm stumped.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980148</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980222</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265035680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>taught, not though... Yes, I am German, but why do you keep calling me a Nazi?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>taught , not though... Yes , I am German , but why do you keep calling me a Nazi ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>taught, not though... Yes, I am German, but why do you keep calling me a Nazi?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980048</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30985596</id>
	<title>Re:Just out of curiousity...</title>
	<author>cstdenis</author>
	<datestamp>1265057580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>According to wikipedia, it's an interjection, eh.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>According to wikipedia , it 's an interjection , eh .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>According to wikipedia, it's an interjection, eh.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979898</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979876</id>
	<title>I'm in the middle of, a course rite know</title>
	<author>Jaktar</author>
	<datestamp>1265034180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I can confurm, exactly what iz stated, here.</p><p>A course I'm currently taking requires frequent posting in threads created by the other students.  The grammar is truly a sight to see.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I can confurm , exactly what iz stated , here.A course I 'm currently taking requires frequent posting in threads created by the other students .
The grammar is truly a sight to see .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I can confurm, exactly what iz stated, here.A course I'm currently taking requires frequent posting in threads created by the other students.
The grammar is truly a sight to see.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979828</id>
	<title>Maybe it's not so bad</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265033940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>After all it's pretty natural that languages evolve.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>After all it 's pretty natural that languages evolve .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>After all it's pretty natural that languages evolve.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981924</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>Teun</author>
	<datestamp>1265042880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>For your safety, pumping the brakes has been long disqualified.<br>
All new cars have ABS as standard and even the old ones that don't stop soonest with full braking.<p>
The UK stand alone in world with its absurd ban on driving lessons on motorways.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>For your safety , pumping the brakes has been long disqualified .
All new cars have ABS as standard and even the old ones that do n't stop soonest with full braking .
The UK stand alone in world with its absurd ban on driving lessons on motorways .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For your safety, pumping the brakes has been long disqualified.
All new cars have ABS as standard and even the old ones that don't stop soonest with full braking.
The UK stand alone in world with its absurd ban on driving lessons on motorways.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981216</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981036</id>
	<title>Re:And this is how we die</title>
	<author>jedidiah</author>
	<datestamp>1265039460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I am not bothered so much that students entering university engage in habits obviously learned from online chatter.</p><p>When I see elementary school teachers using the same sort of nonsense in their official communications, then I get worried.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I am not bothered so much that students entering university engage in habits obviously learned from online chatter.When I see elementary school teachers using the same sort of nonsense in their official communications , then I get worried .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am not bothered so much that students entering university engage in habits obviously learned from online chatter.When I see elementary school teachers using the same sort of nonsense in their official communications, then I get worried.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980386</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980386</id>
	<title>Re:And this is how we die</title>
	<author>QuoteMstr</author>
	<datestamp>1265036460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You make a valid point, but sometimes things really <i>do</i> get worse. Conversely, they sometimes actually improve: but in that case, we're all too quick to acknowledge the change.</p><p>You're indulging in denialism. Look at our international standardized test score rank. Look at the fraction of foreign students in our universities. Look at the strength and depth of our public debate. Then compare what you saw to the documented evidence of the past 50 years.</p><p>Then, after seeing all that, pause and ask yourself, "can I really explain all that away by saying we're wearing rose-colored glasses?"</p><p>The answer is no.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You make a valid point , but sometimes things really do get worse .
Conversely , they sometimes actually improve : but in that case , we 're all too quick to acknowledge the change.You 're indulging in denialism .
Look at our international standardized test score rank .
Look at the fraction of foreign students in our universities .
Look at the strength and depth of our public debate .
Then compare what you saw to the documented evidence of the past 50 years.Then , after seeing all that , pause and ask yourself , " can I really explain all that away by saying we 're wearing rose-colored glasses ?
" The answer is no .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You make a valid point, but sometimes things really do get worse.
Conversely, they sometimes actually improve: but in that case, we're all too quick to acknowledge the change.You're indulging in denialism.
Look at our international standardized test score rank.
Look at the fraction of foreign students in our universities.
Look at the strength and depth of our public debate.
Then compare what you saw to the documented evidence of the past 50 years.Then, after seeing all that, pause and ask yourself, "can I really explain all that away by saying we're wearing rose-colored glasses?
"The answer is no.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979890</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982526</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>Fuji Kitakyusho</author>
	<datestamp>1265045280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Just to be sure that I understand you correctly, you're contributing to Slashdot during a class you are supposed to be teaching, while simultaneously complaining about the lack of education standards?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Just to be sure that I understand you correctly , you 're contributing to Slashdot during a class you are supposed to be teaching , while simultaneously complaining about the lack of education standards ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just to be sure that I understand you correctly, you're contributing to Slashdot during a class you are supposed to be teaching, while simultaneously complaining about the lack of education standards?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981088</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.31003986</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265121060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Presently, the majority of the students I am watching as I write this have elected not to open their book and participate. Instead they have chosen to engage themselves in useless, and frankly, inane and nonsensical conversation.</i></p><p>Your criticizing your students because they engage in 'inane and nonsensical conversation' while you post on<nobr> <wbr></nobr>/.</p><p>Bravo.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Presently , the majority of the students I am watching as I write this have elected not to open their book and participate .
Instead they have chosen to engage themselves in useless , and frankly , inane and nonsensical conversation.Your criticizing your students because they engage in 'inane and nonsensical conversation ' while you post on /.Bravo .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Presently, the majority of the students I am watching as I write this have elected not to open their book and participate.
Instead they have chosen to engage themselves in useless, and frankly, inane and nonsensical conversation.Your criticizing your students because they engage in 'inane and nonsensical conversation' while you post on /.Bravo.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981088</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980798</id>
	<title>Re:Texting it not at fault.</title>
	<author>vlm</author>
	<datestamp>1265038260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>One thing I've never understood about the US system: Why do you people think kids have to learn to read at such a young age?</p></div><p>There is a lot of money to be made, "fixing" the "broken" children.</p><p>Once kids are a bit bigger, you can grade inflate it so everyone gets an "A" and a participation trophy.  But with learning to read, there is no way to falsify the results.  Inevitably the first 10\% of the kids to learn are going to be measurably and obviously ahead of the remaining 90\% whom will be declared "broken" in need of "fixing", because they are all supposed to have equality of results, everyone gets an "A", etc.</p><p>It is also a guilt thing, with various made up statistics claiming only 40\% of adults have read a book since graduation or whatever, the belief is the kids must do better than I did, so the sooner the better.</p><p>Finally American education does not have stages like a real education system.  If a 17 year old kid is supposed to be on the sports team, wear sexually suggestive clothing, read books, ride a bus, watch cartoons, and do homework, then a 4 year old big toddler is supposed to play in the kiddie league, wear provocative clothing, read books, ride a bus, watch cartoons, and do homework just like the almost-adults.  That game continues until dropout, age 18, or graduation, whichever comes last, and the switch is instantly flipped to full adulthood, of course many don't survive the transition, or navigate it very poorly, in which case we just blame the parents and then its all good.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>One thing I 've never understood about the US system : Why do you people think kids have to learn to read at such a young age ? There is a lot of money to be made , " fixing " the " broken " children.Once kids are a bit bigger , you can grade inflate it so everyone gets an " A " and a participation trophy .
But with learning to read , there is no way to falsify the results .
Inevitably the first 10 \ % of the kids to learn are going to be measurably and obviously ahead of the remaining 90 \ % whom will be declared " broken " in need of " fixing " , because they are all supposed to have equality of results , everyone gets an " A " , etc.It is also a guilt thing , with various made up statistics claiming only 40 \ % of adults have read a book since graduation or whatever , the belief is the kids must do better than I did , so the sooner the better.Finally American education does not have stages like a real education system .
If a 17 year old kid is supposed to be on the sports team , wear sexually suggestive clothing , read books , ride a bus , watch cartoons , and do homework , then a 4 year old big toddler is supposed to play in the kiddie league , wear provocative clothing , read books , ride a bus , watch cartoons , and do homework just like the almost-adults .
That game continues until dropout , age 18 , or graduation , whichever comes last , and the switch is instantly flipped to full adulthood , of course many do n't survive the transition , or navigate it very poorly , in which case we just blame the parents and then its all good .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One thing I've never understood about the US system: Why do you people think kids have to learn to read at such a young age?There is a lot of money to be made, "fixing" the "broken" children.Once kids are a bit bigger, you can grade inflate it so everyone gets an "A" and a participation trophy.
But with learning to read, there is no way to falsify the results.
Inevitably the first 10\% of the kids to learn are going to be measurably and obviously ahead of the remaining 90\% whom will be declared "broken" in need of "fixing", because they are all supposed to have equality of results, everyone gets an "A", etc.It is also a guilt thing, with various made up statistics claiming only 40\% of adults have read a book since graduation or whatever, the belief is the kids must do better than I did, so the sooner the better.Finally American education does not have stages like a real education system.
If a 17 year old kid is supposed to be on the sports team, wear sexually suggestive clothing, read books, ride a bus, watch cartoons, and do homework, then a 4 year old big toddler is supposed to play in the kiddie league, wear provocative clothing, read books, ride a bus, watch cartoons, and do homework just like the almost-adults.
That game continues until dropout, age 18, or graduation, whichever comes last, and the switch is instantly flipped to full adulthood, of course many don't survive the transition, or navigate it very poorly, in which case we just blame the parents and then its all good.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980336</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980960</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>OpenSourced</author>
	<datestamp>1265039160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>suddenly find themselves failing college once the gloves come off.</i></p><p>Well, now at least there is a filter somewhere. How long till the gloves stop coming off in College, I wonder. That will be really bad.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>suddenly find themselves failing college once the gloves come off.Well , now at least there is a filter somewhere .
How long till the gloves stop coming off in College , I wonder .
That will be really bad .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>suddenly find themselves failing college once the gloves come off.Well, now at least there is a filter somewhere.
How long till the gloves stop coming off in College, I wonder.
That will be really bad.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979950</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30987028</id>
	<title>Re:And this is how we die</title>
	<author>Bender0x7D1</author>
	<datestamp>1265019060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, they've done things differently and that's not always a bad thing.  However, there are a lot of things that have become commonplace and ARE bad things.  Since you mentioned laziness, why don't we look at the increased consumption of fast food and instant meals.  A few generations ago 99\% of the time you would have a home cooked meal for supper, and generally bring your lunch to school.  Today, the majority of people don't take the time to cook healthy meals and consume whatever junk food is around.  I could make the same observation about exercise.  We know obesity is bad, but it has skyrocketed, (although it may be leveling off), compared to even 1 generation ago.</p><p>I often see Socrates' quote about the next generation of children being spoiled and lazy brought up.  However, the Greek Empire fell.  At some point they lost their edge, and went down.  Rome - same thing.  In fact, every Empire at some point lost their edge, got complacent and went down.  (Very few were destroyed while still at the top of their game.)  Except for the current empires, (influential countries), that are still on top.  The big question is: Have they learned from history?  Or are they going to get complacent, and be replaced by the next hungry, up-and-coming society?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , they 've done things differently and that 's not always a bad thing .
However , there are a lot of things that have become commonplace and ARE bad things .
Since you mentioned laziness , why do n't we look at the increased consumption of fast food and instant meals .
A few generations ago 99 \ % of the time you would have a home cooked meal for supper , and generally bring your lunch to school .
Today , the majority of people do n't take the time to cook healthy meals and consume whatever junk food is around .
I could make the same observation about exercise .
We know obesity is bad , but it has skyrocketed , ( although it may be leveling off ) , compared to even 1 generation ago.I often see Socrates ' quote about the next generation of children being spoiled and lazy brought up .
However , the Greek Empire fell .
At some point they lost their edge , and went down .
Rome - same thing .
In fact , every Empire at some point lost their edge , got complacent and went down .
( Very few were destroyed while still at the top of their game .
) Except for the current empires , ( influential countries ) , that are still on top .
The big question is : Have they learned from history ?
Or are they going to get complacent , and be replaced by the next hungry , up-and-coming society ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, they've done things differently and that's not always a bad thing.
However, there are a lot of things that have become commonplace and ARE bad things.
Since you mentioned laziness, why don't we look at the increased consumption of fast food and instant meals.
A few generations ago 99\% of the time you would have a home cooked meal for supper, and generally bring your lunch to school.
Today, the majority of people don't take the time to cook healthy meals and consume whatever junk food is around.
I could make the same observation about exercise.
We know obesity is bad, but it has skyrocketed, (although it may be leveling off), compared to even 1 generation ago.I often see Socrates' quote about the next generation of children being spoiled and lazy brought up.
However, the Greek Empire fell.
At some point they lost their edge, and went down.
Rome - same thing.
In fact, every Empire at some point lost their edge, got complacent and went down.
(Very few were destroyed while still at the top of their game.
)  Except for the current empires, (influential countries), that are still on top.
The big question is: Have they learned from history?
Or are they going to get complacent, and be replaced by the next hungry, up-and-coming society?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979890</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980148</id>
	<title>Re:And this is how we die</title>
	<author>Trepidity</author>
	<datestamp>1265035380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So it's a bit of a cheap shot, but I can't help but quoting this sentence from your post, which later on complained about grammar:</p><blockquote><div><p>They have kept really shitty teachers teaching and keeping standards testing to be implemented for hiring and continued employment of teachers.</p></div></blockquote><p>As for the substantive point, I think the lack of good teachers is a bigger problem than a surplus of bad ones. It isn't like there's a long line of great teachers who are unable to find jobs, sitting impatiently behind this mass of horrible teachers that the union won't let us fire. Teaching is simply not a profession that attracts the best minds, for a mixture of reasons that mostly involve its relatively low status, relatively low pay, and poor working conditions (K-12 education is as much babysitting as teaching).</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>So it 's a bit of a cheap shot , but I ca n't help but quoting this sentence from your post , which later on complained about grammar : They have kept really shitty teachers teaching and keeping standards testing to be implemented for hiring and continued employment of teachers.As for the substantive point , I think the lack of good teachers is a bigger problem than a surplus of bad ones .
It is n't like there 's a long line of great teachers who are unable to find jobs , sitting impatiently behind this mass of horrible teachers that the union wo n't let us fire .
Teaching is simply not a profession that attracts the best minds , for a mixture of reasons that mostly involve its relatively low status , relatively low pay , and poor working conditions ( K-12 education is as much babysitting as teaching ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So it's a bit of a cheap shot, but I can't help but quoting this sentence from your post, which later on complained about grammar:They have kept really shitty teachers teaching and keeping standards testing to be implemented for hiring and continued employment of teachers.As for the substantive point, I think the lack of good teachers is a bigger problem than a surplus of bad ones.
It isn't like there's a long line of great teachers who are unable to find jobs, sitting impatiently behind this mass of horrible teachers that the union won't let us fire.
Teaching is simply not a profession that attracts the best minds, for a mixture of reasons that mostly involve its relatively low status, relatively low pay, and poor working conditions (K-12 education is as much babysitting as teaching).
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979952</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30996702</id>
	<title>Alas, poor colon</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265131140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If students can't even handle the colon, how will they ever learn to use the semi-colon? A more elegant punctuation mark from a more civilized age.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If students ca n't even handle the colon , how will they ever learn to use the semi-colon ?
A more elegant punctuation mark from a more civilized age .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If students can't even handle the colon, how will they ever learn to use the semi-colon?
A more elegant punctuation mark from a more civilized age.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981430</id>
	<title>Formal language as an argument deterrent</title>
	<author>Vyse of Arcadia</author>
	<datestamp>1265040960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I used to tutor as an undergrad. Mostly math, but occasionally I'd proofread English papers. A very large number of them were written the same way that the student would write a text message or e-mail to a friend. What's worse is that very few of them understood why they had gotten such bad grades. These people had somehow made it to college without realizing that English has rules that are followed in formal writing. You should not have graduated high school if you can't write a decently formal paper, barring disabilities and such.<br>
<br>
I do realize that language is arbitrary so long as ideas can be communicated. However, as social animals I would argue that there is a need for formal language. We need a way to communicate with others in a way that is regarded as polite and civil. We need a way to express differing opinions without being insulting or starting arguments, and everyone should know how to communicate in this way.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I used to tutor as an undergrad .
Mostly math , but occasionally I 'd proofread English papers .
A very large number of them were written the same way that the student would write a text message or e-mail to a friend .
What 's worse is that very few of them understood why they had gotten such bad grades .
These people had somehow made it to college without realizing that English has rules that are followed in formal writing .
You should not have graduated high school if you ca n't write a decently formal paper , barring disabilities and such .
I do realize that language is arbitrary so long as ideas can be communicated .
However , as social animals I would argue that there is a need for formal language .
We need a way to communicate with others in a way that is regarded as polite and civil .
We need a way to express differing opinions without being insulting or starting arguments , and everyone should know how to communicate in this way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I used to tutor as an undergrad.
Mostly math, but occasionally I'd proofread English papers.
A very large number of them were written the same way that the student would write a text message or e-mail to a friend.
What's worse is that very few of them understood why they had gotten such bad grades.
These people had somehow made it to college without realizing that English has rules that are followed in formal writing.
You should not have graduated high school if you can't write a decently formal paper, barring disabilities and such.
I do realize that language is arbitrary so long as ideas can be communicated.
However, as social animals I would argue that there is a need for formal language.
We need a way to communicate with others in a way that is regarded as polite and civil.
We need a way to express differing opinions without being insulting or starting arguments, and everyone should know how to communicate in this way.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984144</id>
	<title>Re:Phonetics &amp; putting the blame in the right</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265051700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> <i>"When I went to high school in the '70s I was never taught grammar in English. I learned grammar from Latin classes."</i></p><p><i>Budra was taught to read and write using whole language rather than phonetics - not a good way to go in his books.</i></p><p>I find this part interesting. In French canadian schools, we blamed the bad grammar back in the 80s for using phonetics instead of the more traditional methods. As I was told back then, they stopped using it in France because it didn't work while we here in Canada keeped using it for some 10 years and sacrificed an entire generation as far as grammar goes.</p><p>Needless to say, we're no better off today then we were back then as the failure rates of students just keeps rising in French Canada.</p><p>I feel that the problem is that we want to find a one size fits all approach and forget that no all kids absorb knowledge the same way or at the same speed.</p></div><p>Phonics is used to teach people to read, not write.  Phonics teaches people how to convert a printed word to a spoken sound.  It's really just a get off the ground solution.  Once students can successfully read printed text, they still need to be taught all of the rules of the language they are learning.</p><p>Whole language tries to solve the "one size fits all problem" by slowing the education process down enough so that the weakest students in the class are able to pick up the subject.  This results in the majority of the class becoming bored because of the slow pace.  Instead of creating teaching methods like whole language out of the belief that learning is "too hard," why not look at what teaching methods were is use prior to the decline in performance?  Remember that there was a time in history when students learned things in school.  Teaching kids to use "invented spellings" won't do them any good in the long run.  Whole language teachers deride the concept of practicing by calling it wrote memorization or dull repetition.  Think about anything you have learned yourself.  Hasn't practicing made you better at it?</p><p>There was a time when parents would expect students to study and practice in order to do well.  Today a student fails a test the parent is more likely to call the teacher and try to get the grade changed than they are to push the student to study more.  Probably one of the worst things that has happened to education in the last 20 years is the creation of the "soccer mom" and all the my child is perfect how dare anyone criticize my child attitudes that have come along with it.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>A quick search in the local french news turns up a fact that did not get pointed out in that article. The new and current test in French universities points to a failure of over 50\% for the teachers. How can you educate when you don't know what your teaching?</p><p>I suspect this failure would be pretty high in english schools as well.</p><p>It's rather interesting that no one's bothered to point any fingers towards teachers. I wish we could stop this blame the students mentality for all failures. Teachers have they're part in this too and they need to acknowledge it.</p></div><p>I have to agree with that.  Most problems don't have only one cause.  Here is Massachusetts back when they initiated the MCAS tests that students needs to pass before graduating high school, there were also tests that teachers had to pass.  I remember hearing one news story where over 50\% of the teachers didn't know the difference between the words eminent and imminent.  Ok, maybe they sound similar, but give me break.</p><p><div class="quote"><p> <i>The Internet norm of ignoring punctuation and capitalization as well as using emoticons may be acceptable in an email to friends and family, but it can have a deadly effect on one's career if used at work.</i></p><p><i>"It would say to me<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... 'well, this person doesn't think very clearly, and they're not very good at analyzing complex subjects, and they're not very good at expressing themselves, or at worse, they can't spell, they can't punctuate,' " he says.</i></p><p><i>"These folks are going to short-change themselves, and right or wrong, they're looked down upon in traditional corporations," notes Postman. </i></p><p>The problem I see here is that as the language degrades, so will corporations' abilities to hire people with such skills and eventually it will end up in upper management.</p></div><p>Trust me, Postman is correct.  I know because I have experienced it myself.  It's the main reason I have taken more of an interest in correcting my own grammar and spelling issues.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" When I went to high school in the '70s I was never taught grammar in English .
I learned grammar from Latin classes .
" Budra was taught to read and write using whole language rather than phonetics - not a good way to go in his books.I find this part interesting .
In French canadian schools , we blamed the bad grammar back in the 80s for using phonetics instead of the more traditional methods .
As I was told back then , they stopped using it in France because it did n't work while we here in Canada keeped using it for some 10 years and sacrificed an entire generation as far as grammar goes.Needless to say , we 're no better off today then we were back then as the failure rates of students just keeps rising in French Canada.I feel that the problem is that we want to find a one size fits all approach and forget that no all kids absorb knowledge the same way or at the same speed.Phonics is used to teach people to read , not write .
Phonics teaches people how to convert a printed word to a spoken sound .
It 's really just a get off the ground solution .
Once students can successfully read printed text , they still need to be taught all of the rules of the language they are learning.Whole language tries to solve the " one size fits all problem " by slowing the education process down enough so that the weakest students in the class are able to pick up the subject .
This results in the majority of the class becoming bored because of the slow pace .
Instead of creating teaching methods like whole language out of the belief that learning is " too hard , " why not look at what teaching methods were is use prior to the decline in performance ?
Remember that there was a time in history when students learned things in school .
Teaching kids to use " invented spellings " wo n't do them any good in the long run .
Whole language teachers deride the concept of practicing by calling it wrote memorization or dull repetition .
Think about anything you have learned yourself .
Has n't practicing made you better at it ? There was a time when parents would expect students to study and practice in order to do well .
Today a student fails a test the parent is more likely to call the teacher and try to get the grade changed than they are to push the student to study more .
Probably one of the worst things that has happened to education in the last 20 years is the creation of the " soccer mom " and all the my child is perfect how dare anyone criticize my child attitudes that have come along with it.A quick search in the local french news turns up a fact that did not get pointed out in that article .
The new and current test in French universities points to a failure of over 50 \ % for the teachers .
How can you educate when you do n't know what your teaching ? I suspect this failure would be pretty high in english schools as well.It 's rather interesting that no one 's bothered to point any fingers towards teachers .
I wish we could stop this blame the students mentality for all failures .
Teachers have they 're part in this too and they need to acknowledge it.I have to agree with that .
Most problems do n't have only one cause .
Here is Massachusetts back when they initiated the MCAS tests that students needs to pass before graduating high school , there were also tests that teachers had to pass .
I remember hearing one news story where over 50 \ % of the teachers did n't know the difference between the words eminent and imminent .
Ok , maybe they sound similar , but give me break .
The Internet norm of ignoring punctuation and capitalization as well as using emoticons may be acceptable in an email to friends and family , but it can have a deadly effect on one 's career if used at work .
" It would say to me ... 'well , this person does n't think very clearly , and they 're not very good at analyzing complex subjects , and they 're not very good at expressing themselves , or at worse , they ca n't spell , they ca n't punctuate, ' " he says .
" These folks are going to short-change themselves , and right or wrong , they 're looked down upon in traditional corporations , " notes Postman .
The problem I see here is that as the language degrades , so will corporations ' abilities to hire people with such skills and eventually it will end up in upper management.Trust me , Postman is correct .
I know because I have experienced it myself .
It 's the main reason I have taken more of an interest in correcting my own grammar and spelling issues .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> "When I went to high school in the '70s I was never taught grammar in English.
I learned grammar from Latin classes.
"Budra was taught to read and write using whole language rather than phonetics - not a good way to go in his books.I find this part interesting.
In French canadian schools, we blamed the bad grammar back in the 80s for using phonetics instead of the more traditional methods.
As I was told back then, they stopped using it in France because it didn't work while we here in Canada keeped using it for some 10 years and sacrificed an entire generation as far as grammar goes.Needless to say, we're no better off today then we were back then as the failure rates of students just keeps rising in French Canada.I feel that the problem is that we want to find a one size fits all approach and forget that no all kids absorb knowledge the same way or at the same speed.Phonics is used to teach people to read, not write.
Phonics teaches people how to convert a printed word to a spoken sound.
It's really just a get off the ground solution.
Once students can successfully read printed text, they still need to be taught all of the rules of the language they are learning.Whole language tries to solve the "one size fits all problem" by slowing the education process down enough so that the weakest students in the class are able to pick up the subject.
This results in the majority of the class becoming bored because of the slow pace.
Instead of creating teaching methods like whole language out of the belief that learning is "too hard," why not look at what teaching methods were is use prior to the decline in performance?
Remember that there was a time in history when students learned things in school.
Teaching kids to use "invented spellings" won't do them any good in the long run.
Whole language teachers deride the concept of practicing by calling it wrote memorization or dull repetition.
Think about anything you have learned yourself.
Hasn't practicing made you better at it?There was a time when parents would expect students to study and practice in order to do well.
Today a student fails a test the parent is more likely to call the teacher and try to get the grade changed than they are to push the student to study more.
Probably one of the worst things that has happened to education in the last 20 years is the creation of the "soccer mom" and all the my child is perfect how dare anyone criticize my child attitudes that have come along with it.A quick search in the local french news turns up a fact that did not get pointed out in that article.
The new and current test in French universities points to a failure of over 50\% for the teachers.
How can you educate when you don't know what your teaching?I suspect this failure would be pretty high in english schools as well.It's rather interesting that no one's bothered to point any fingers towards teachers.
I wish we could stop this blame the students mentality for all failures.
Teachers have they're part in this too and they need to acknowledge it.I have to agree with that.
Most problems don't have only one cause.
Here is Massachusetts back when they initiated the MCAS tests that students needs to pass before graduating high school, there were also tests that teachers had to pass.
I remember hearing one news story where over 50\% of the teachers didn't know the difference between the words eminent and imminent.
Ok, maybe they sound similar, but give me break.
The Internet norm of ignoring punctuation and capitalization as well as using emoticons may be acceptable in an email to friends and family, but it can have a deadly effect on one's career if used at work.
"It would say to me ... 'well, this person doesn't think very clearly, and they're not very good at analyzing complex subjects, and they're not very good at expressing themselves, or at worse, they can't spell, they can't punctuate,' " he says.
"These folks are going to short-change themselves, and right or wrong, they're looked down upon in traditional corporations," notes Postman.
The problem I see here is that as the language degrades, so will corporations' abilities to hire people with such skills and eventually it will end up in upper management.Trust me, Postman is correct.
I know because I have experienced it myself.
It's the main reason I have taken more of an interest in correcting my own grammar and spelling issues.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981282</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984014</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265051160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You think the gloves come off in college.</p><p>How quaint.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You think the gloves come off in college.How quaint .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You think the gloves come off in college.How quaint.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979950</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980408</id>
	<title>fail test = no admittance</title>
	<author>Kartoffel</author>
	<datestamp>1265036580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If you can't pass a basic English test, you shouldn't be admitted to university.  TFA says professors are reduced to teaching basic grammar, which undermines the value of a university education.  Degrees are earned, not sprinkled out like parmesan cheese (or commas.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If you ca n't pass a basic English test , you should n't be admitted to university .
TFA says professors are reduced to teaching basic grammar , which undermines the value of a university education .
Degrees are earned , not sprinkled out like parmesan cheese ( or commas .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you can't pass a basic English test, you shouldn't be admitted to university.
TFA says professors are reduced to teaching basic grammar, which undermines the value of a university education.
Degrees are earned, not sprinkled out like parmesan cheese (or commas.
)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980304</id>
	<title>priorities</title>
	<author>Tom</author>
	<datestamp>1265036160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Religion ("believing in something") is considered more important than science ("examining things"). So what is the surprise in that education in general goes down the drain? The home-schooling religious right has one thing correct: Education is fundamentally hostile to religion and all the other "we already have the answers" bullshit bingo.</p><p>The biggest problem - Dawkins got that right - is that rational thinking doesn't have much of a lobby. Heck, thinking of any kind doesn't. If you can check your facts, you don't have this desire to defend them religiously. You think that if someone doubts you, he can repeat the double-blind experiment and be convinced. Except that you are the one who's double-blind - to both the fact that the religious doubters won't repeat the experiment and even if they would, it wouldn't convince them of anything. Because religion is not falsifyable, it's a reverse-falsification system: The more you disprove it, the more fanatical its believers become.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Religion ( " believing in something " ) is considered more important than science ( " examining things " ) .
So what is the surprise in that education in general goes down the drain ?
The home-schooling religious right has one thing correct : Education is fundamentally hostile to religion and all the other " we already have the answers " bullshit bingo.The biggest problem - Dawkins got that right - is that rational thinking does n't have much of a lobby .
Heck , thinking of any kind does n't .
If you can check your facts , you do n't have this desire to defend them religiously .
You think that if someone doubts you , he can repeat the double-blind experiment and be convinced .
Except that you are the one who 's double-blind - to both the fact that the religious doubters wo n't repeat the experiment and even if they would , it would n't convince them of anything .
Because religion is not falsifyable , it 's a reverse-falsification system : The more you disprove it , the more fanatical its believers become .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Religion ("believing in something") is considered more important than science ("examining things").
So what is the surprise in that education in general goes down the drain?
The home-schooling religious right has one thing correct: Education is fundamentally hostile to religion and all the other "we already have the answers" bullshit bingo.The biggest problem - Dawkins got that right - is that rational thinking doesn't have much of a lobby.
Heck, thinking of any kind doesn't.
If you can check your facts, you don't have this desire to defend them religiously.
You think that if someone doubts you, he can repeat the double-blind experiment and be convinced.
Except that you are the one who's double-blind - to both the fact that the religious doubters won't repeat the experiment and even if they would, it wouldn't convince them of anything.
Because religion is not falsifyable, it's a reverse-falsification system: The more you disprove it, the more fanatical its believers become.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980674</id>
	<title>Well...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265037720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's not "one thing and another thing" - the less you obey grammar and spelling, the more incoherent your writing becomes.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's not " one thing and another thing " - the less you obey grammar and spelling , the more incoherent your writing becomes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's not "one thing and another thing" - the less you obey grammar and spelling, the more incoherent your writing becomes.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979960</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981354</id>
	<title>It's going to get worse</title>
	<author>slimjim8094</author>
	<datestamp>1265040720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I did an independent study class in high school in my junior year. I shared the classroom with an 8th-grade class (not concurrently) and there were a few dozen posters up from some sort of project.</p><p>I walked around the room and <i>every single poster</i> had a "their/there" or a "to/too/two" or "your/you're". Every. Single. One.</p><p>Now when I was in 8th grade, neither I nor anyone in my class made anything close to that number of mistakes (and I have the papers to prove it).</p><p>That grade is the current sophomores. The classes before them are more-or-less OK on the grammar front, but I shudder to think what will happen when these people start writing on more than posters...</p><p>I think it's because my class, and a few classes behind mine, grew up before everybody had high-speed internet. Using the internet was slow, and it was a treat. Those 8th-graders were only 6 in 2000. They grew up with DSL and cable... so instant messenger was a fact of life. I think that's the biggest factor.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I did an independent study class in high school in my junior year .
I shared the classroom with an 8th-grade class ( not concurrently ) and there were a few dozen posters up from some sort of project.I walked around the room and every single poster had a " their/there " or a " to/too/two " or " your/you 're " .
Every. Single .
One.Now when I was in 8th grade , neither I nor anyone in my class made anything close to that number of mistakes ( and I have the papers to prove it ) .That grade is the current sophomores .
The classes before them are more-or-less OK on the grammar front , but I shudder to think what will happen when these people start writing on more than posters...I think it 's because my class , and a few classes behind mine , grew up before everybody had high-speed internet .
Using the internet was slow , and it was a treat .
Those 8th-graders were only 6 in 2000 .
They grew up with DSL and cable... so instant messenger was a fact of life .
I think that 's the biggest factor .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I did an independent study class in high school in my junior year.
I shared the classroom with an 8th-grade class (not concurrently) and there were a few dozen posters up from some sort of project.I walked around the room and every single poster had a "their/there" or a "to/too/two" or "your/you're".
Every. Single.
One.Now when I was in 8th grade, neither I nor anyone in my class made anything close to that number of mistakes (and I have the papers to prove it).That grade is the current sophomores.
The classes before them are more-or-less OK on the grammar front, but I shudder to think what will happen when these people start writing on more than posters...I think it's because my class, and a few classes behind mine, grew up before everybody had high-speed internet.
Using the internet was slow, and it was a treat.
Those 8th-graders were only 6 in 2000.
They grew up with DSL and cable... so instant messenger was a fact of life.
I think that's the biggest factor.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979892</id>
	<title>Universities can't keep up</title>
	<author>TheCycoONE</author>
	<datestamp>1265034240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So what this demonstrates is that universities are not adapting as fast as the English language is.  It makes sense in the information age that our language would be evolving at unprecedented rates.  We could be like the L'academie Francaise and dictate that because it wasn't invented in an ivory tower it's not the true language; but English has historically been a living language - that is it's greatest strength.  (We all know what 'cuz' means; don't TAs and Professors?)</p><p>There are uses for more formal linguistics, in the same way Latin was used well past the end of the Roman empire, to sound regal or intellectual - but it's really all for show.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So what this demonstrates is that universities are not adapting as fast as the English language is .
It makes sense in the information age that our language would be evolving at unprecedented rates .
We could be like the L'academie Francaise and dictate that because it was n't invented in an ivory tower it 's not the true language ; but English has historically been a living language - that is it 's greatest strength .
( We all know what 'cuz ' means ; do n't TAs and Professors ?
) There are uses for more formal linguistics , in the same way Latin was used well past the end of the Roman empire , to sound regal or intellectual - but it 's really all for show .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So what this demonstrates is that universities are not adapting as fast as the English language is.
It makes sense in the information age that our language would be evolving at unprecedented rates.
We could be like the L'academie Francaise and dictate that because it wasn't invented in an ivory tower it's not the true language; but English has historically been a living language - that is it's greatest strength.
(We all know what 'cuz' means; don't TAs and Professors?
)There are uses for more formal linguistics, in the same way Latin was used well past the end of the Roman empire, to sound regal or intellectual - but it's really all for show.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980272</id>
	<title>Re:Universities can't keep up</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265035980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Language also needs to be readable and convey a point clearly, two things which "LOLspeak" is not well suited for.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Language also needs to be readable and convey a point clearly , two things which " LOLspeak " is not well suited for .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Language also needs to be readable and convey a point clearly, two things which "LOLspeak" is not well suited for.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979892</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984022</id>
	<title>"Sort of like" hopeless</title>
	<author>macraig</author>
	<datestamp>1265051220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'd wager it's a losing battle when even professors use the phrase "sort of like".  Can the gray pot still ridicule the kettle for being black?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd wager it 's a losing battle when even professors use the phrase " sort of like " .
Can the gray pot still ridicule the kettle for being black ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd wager it's a losing battle when even professors use the phrase "sort of like".
Can the gray pot still ridicule the kettle for being black?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979950</id>
	<title>It's the parents</title>
	<author>Anita Coney</author>
	<datestamp>1265034480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My wife works in the public schools.  I learned one thing from her.  Parents claim they want schools with touch academics.  However, they also wants their kids to get a 4.0, or very close to it and go apeshit when it doesn't happen.  So when a school does crack down and start to grade accurately to touch academic standards, the parents go ballistic.  These parents start harassing the teacher, the principal, the administrators, and the school board.</p><p>So it's no shock that these kids, of which very little was ever demanded or expected of them, should suddenly find themselves failing college once the gloves come off.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My wife works in the public schools .
I learned one thing from her .
Parents claim they want schools with touch academics .
However , they also wants their kids to get a 4.0 , or very close to it and go apeshit when it does n't happen .
So when a school does crack down and start to grade accurately to touch academic standards , the parents go ballistic .
These parents start harassing the teacher , the principal , the administrators , and the school board.So it 's no shock that these kids , of which very little was ever demanded or expected of them , should suddenly find themselves failing college once the gloves come off .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My wife works in the public schools.
I learned one thing from her.
Parents claim they want schools with touch academics.
However, they also wants their kids to get a 4.0, or very close to it and go apeshit when it doesn't happen.
So when a school does crack down and start to grade accurately to touch academic standards, the parents go ballistic.
These parents start harassing the teacher, the principal, the administrators, and the school board.So it's no shock that these kids, of which very little was ever demanded or expected of them, should suddenly find themselves failing college once the gloves come off.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981282</id>
	<title>Phonetics &amp; putting the blame in the right pla</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265040420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>"When I went to high school in the '70s I was never taught grammar in English. I learned grammar from Latin classes." <br>
Budra was taught to read and write using whole language rather than phonetics - not a good way to go in his books.</i>
<br> <br>
I find this part interesting. In French canadian schools, we blamed the bad grammar back in the 80s for using phonetics instead of the more traditional methods. As I was told back then, they stopped using it in France because it didn't work while we here in Canada keeped using it for some 10 years and sacrificed an entire generation as far as grammar goes. <br>
Needless to say, we're no better off today then we were back then as the failure rates of students just keeps rising in French Canada.<br>
I feel that the problem is that we want to find a one size fits all approach and forget that no all kids absorb knowledge the same way or at the same speed.<br> <br>
A quick search in the local french news turns up a fact that did not get pointed out in that article. The new and current test in French universities points to a failure of over 50\% for the teachers. How can you educate when you don't know what your teaching?<br>
I suspect this failure would be pretty high in english schools as well.<br>
It's rather interesting that no one's bothered to point any fingers towards teachers. I wish we could stop this blame the students mentality for all failures. Teachers have they're part in this too and they need to acknowledge it.
<br> <br>
<i>The Internet norm of ignoring punctuation and capitalization as well as using emoticons may be acceptable in an email to friends and family, but it can have a deadly effect on one's career if used at work.
<br> <br>
"It would say to me<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... 'well, this person doesn't think very clearly, and they're not very good at analyzing complex subjects, and they're not very good at expressing themselves, or at worse, they can't spell, they can't punctuate,' " he says.
<br> <br>
"These folks are going to short-change themselves, and right or wrong, they're looked down upon in traditional corporations," notes Postman. </i>
<br> <br>
The problem I see here is that as the language degrades, so will corporations' abilities to hire people with such skills and eventually it will end up in upper management.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" When I went to high school in the '70s I was never taught grammar in English .
I learned grammar from Latin classes .
" Budra was taught to read and write using whole language rather than phonetics - not a good way to go in his books .
I find this part interesting .
In French canadian schools , we blamed the bad grammar back in the 80s for using phonetics instead of the more traditional methods .
As I was told back then , they stopped using it in France because it did n't work while we here in Canada keeped using it for some 10 years and sacrificed an entire generation as far as grammar goes .
Needless to say , we 're no better off today then we were back then as the failure rates of students just keeps rising in French Canada .
I feel that the problem is that we want to find a one size fits all approach and forget that no all kids absorb knowledge the same way or at the same speed .
A quick search in the local french news turns up a fact that did not get pointed out in that article .
The new and current test in French universities points to a failure of over 50 \ % for the teachers .
How can you educate when you do n't know what your teaching ?
I suspect this failure would be pretty high in english schools as well .
It 's rather interesting that no one 's bothered to point any fingers towards teachers .
I wish we could stop this blame the students mentality for all failures .
Teachers have they 're part in this too and they need to acknowledge it .
The Internet norm of ignoring punctuation and capitalization as well as using emoticons may be acceptable in an email to friends and family , but it can have a deadly effect on one 's career if used at work .
" It would say to me ... 'well , this person does n't think very clearly , and they 're not very good at analyzing complex subjects , and they 're not very good at expressing themselves , or at worse , they ca n't spell , they ca n't punctuate, ' " he says .
" These folks are going to short-change themselves , and right or wrong , they 're looked down upon in traditional corporations , " notes Postman .
The problem I see here is that as the language degrades , so will corporations ' abilities to hire people with such skills and eventually it will end up in upper management .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"When I went to high school in the '70s I was never taught grammar in English.
I learned grammar from Latin classes.
" 
Budra was taught to read and write using whole language rather than phonetics - not a good way to go in his books.
I find this part interesting.
In French canadian schools, we blamed the bad grammar back in the 80s for using phonetics instead of the more traditional methods.
As I was told back then, they stopped using it in France because it didn't work while we here in Canada keeped using it for some 10 years and sacrificed an entire generation as far as grammar goes.
Needless to say, we're no better off today then we were back then as the failure rates of students just keeps rising in French Canada.
I feel that the problem is that we want to find a one size fits all approach and forget that no all kids absorb knowledge the same way or at the same speed.
A quick search in the local french news turns up a fact that did not get pointed out in that article.
The new and current test in French universities points to a failure of over 50\% for the teachers.
How can you educate when you don't know what your teaching?
I suspect this failure would be pretty high in english schools as well.
It's rather interesting that no one's bothered to point any fingers towards teachers.
I wish we could stop this blame the students mentality for all failures.
Teachers have they're part in this too and they need to acknowledge it.
The Internet norm of ignoring punctuation and capitalization as well as using emoticons may be acceptable in an email to friends and family, but it can have a deadly effect on one's career if used at work.
"It would say to me ... 'well, this person doesn't think very clearly, and they're not very good at analyzing complex subjects, and they're not very good at expressing themselves, or at worse, they can't spell, they can't punctuate,' " he says.
"These folks are going to short-change themselves, and right or wrong, they're looked down upon in traditional corporations," notes Postman.
The problem I see here is that as the language degrades, so will corporations' abilities to hire people with such skills and eventually it will end up in upper management.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979850</id>
	<title>Spell Checking</title>
	<author>smitty777</author>
	<datestamp>1265034060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>FTA: </p><p><div class="quote"><p>"But "spelling is getting better because of Spellcheck," says Margaret Proctor, University of Toronto writing support co-ordinator.</p></div><p>.  I'd like to see some hard evidence before I agree with this statement.  In my experience, people tend to make spelling errors and go with the spell chedking results without actually investigating the error.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>FTA : " But " spelling is getting better because of Spellcheck , " says Margaret Proctor , University of Toronto writing support co-ordinator.. I 'd like to see some hard evidence before I agree with this statement .
In my experience , people tend to make spelling errors and go with the spell chedking results without actually investigating the error .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>FTA: "But "spelling is getting better because of Spellcheck," says Margaret Proctor, University of Toronto writing support co-ordinator..  I'd like to see some hard evidence before I agree with this statement.
In my experience, people tend to make spelling errors and go with the spell chedking results without actually investigating the error.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981532</id>
	<title>Re:priorities</title>
	<author>Megatron3W</author>
	<datestamp>1265041380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm not sure where you got this idea: "The home-schooling religious right has one thing correct: Education is fundamentally hostile to religion and all the other "we already have the answers" bullshit bingo."</p><p>Because every right-wing family I've met that has home-schooled their child, was doing it because they saw Education as being important, and felt they could do a better job then the local Public/Private school. And when their children graduated, they pretty much got full rides to schools like USC, Standford, ect, due their SAT scores, and grades received from the general education classes they took at the local Community college, that each child started attending at about age 13 and/or 14, and thus graduated from above Universities by 19 or 20, in fields ranging from Fine Arts to Computer Science and/or Engineering. </p><p>Now granted this is my experience, and it appears your experience has been different.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not sure where you got this idea : " The home-schooling religious right has one thing correct : Education is fundamentally hostile to religion and all the other " we already have the answers " bullshit bingo .
" Because every right-wing family I 've met that has home-schooled their child , was doing it because they saw Education as being important , and felt they could do a better job then the local Public/Private school .
And when their children graduated , they pretty much got full rides to schools like USC , Standford , ect , due their SAT scores , and grades received from the general education classes they took at the local Community college , that each child started attending at about age 13 and/or 14 , and thus graduated from above Universities by 19 or 20 , in fields ranging from Fine Arts to Computer Science and/or Engineering .
Now granted this is my experience , and it appears your experience has been different .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not sure where you got this idea: "The home-schooling religious right has one thing correct: Education is fundamentally hostile to religion and all the other "we already have the answers" bullshit bingo.
"Because every right-wing family I've met that has home-schooled their child, was doing it because they saw Education as being important, and felt they could do a better job then the local Public/Private school.
And when their children graduated, they pretty much got full rides to schools like USC, Standford, ect, due their SAT scores, and grades received from the general education classes they took at the local Community college, that each child started attending at about age 13 and/or 14, and thus graduated from above Universities by 19 or 20, in fields ranging from Fine Arts to Computer Science and/or Engineering.
Now granted this is my experience, and it appears your experience has been different.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980304</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980360</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe its the school thats failing</title>
	<author>ShadowRangerRIT</author>
	<datestamp>1265036400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>Replacing 'because' with 'cuz' is theoretically a form of language evolution. Simplifying commonly used words is an acceptable evolution, particularly when there is no risk of misinterpretation.  On the other hand, inserting commas in the same way you sprinkle Parmesan cheese is not language evolution. The lack of consistency impairs the ability to convey ideas; the student which produced the writing is likely incapable of producing the same patterns of commas twice. Misplaced commas, along with poor capitalization and spelling, can lead to all sorts of misinterpretations, e.g. the panda which "Eats, shoots and leaves," or the time I "helped my uncle jack off a horse." Language evolution is different from language deterioration.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Replacing 'because ' with 'cuz ' is theoretically a form of language evolution .
Simplifying commonly used words is an acceptable evolution , particularly when there is no risk of misinterpretation .
On the other hand , inserting commas in the same way you sprinkle Parmesan cheese is not language evolution .
The lack of consistency impairs the ability to convey ideas ; the student which produced the writing is likely incapable of producing the same patterns of commas twice .
Misplaced commas , along with poor capitalization and spelling , can lead to all sorts of misinterpretations , e.g .
the panda which " Eats , shoots and leaves , " or the time I " helped my uncle jack off a horse .
" Language evolution is different from language deterioration .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Replacing 'because' with 'cuz' is theoretically a form of language evolution.
Simplifying commonly used words is an acceptable evolution, particularly when there is no risk of misinterpretation.
On the other hand, inserting commas in the same way you sprinkle Parmesan cheese is not language evolution.
The lack of consistency impairs the ability to convey ideas; the student which produced the writing is likely incapable of producing the same patterns of commas twice.
Misplaced commas, along with poor capitalization and spelling, can lead to all sorts of misinterpretations, e.g.
the panda which "Eats, shoots and leaves," or the time I "helped my uncle jack off a horse.
" Language evolution is different from language deterioration.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980058</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30985876</id>
	<title>Dear Elitist, Classist, Sexist, Racists;</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265015220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's all. I just wanted to call you names for focusing on someone's grammar - an irrelevant indicator of the quality or intelligence of a person.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's all .
I just wanted to call you names for focusing on someone 's grammar - an irrelevant indicator of the quality or intelligence of a person .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's all.
I just wanted to call you names for focusing on someone's grammar - an irrelevant indicator of the quality or intelligence of a person.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979936</id>
	<title>Eats, Shoots, and Leaves</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265034420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>To quote the book of the above title:</p><p><div class="quote"><p>A panda walks into a caf&#233;. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and proceeds to fire it at the other patrons.</p><p>'Why?' asks the confused, surviving waiter amidst the carnage, as the panda makes towards the exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.</p><p>'Well, I'm a panda', he says, at the door. 'Look it up.'</p><p>The waiter turns to the relevant entry in the manual and, sure enough, finds an explanation. 'Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves.'</p> </div><p>I've actually noticed myself becoming extremely careful about punctuation.  If you get your punctuation wrong when programming, all sorts of bad things happen.  English is just a natural extension of this.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>To quote the book of the above title : A panda walks into a caf   .
He orders a sandwich , eats it , then draws a gun and proceeds to fire it at the other patrons.'Why ?
' asks the confused , surviving waiter amidst the carnage , as the panda makes towards the exit .
The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder .
'Well , I 'm a panda ' , he says , at the door .
'Look it up .
'The waiter turns to the relevant entry in the manual and , sure enough , finds an explanation .
'Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal , native to China .
Eats , shoots and leaves .
' I 've actually noticed myself becoming extremely careful about punctuation .
If you get your punctuation wrong when programming , all sorts of bad things happen .
English is just a natural extension of this .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>To quote the book of the above title:A panda walks into a café.
He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and proceeds to fire it at the other patrons.'Why?
' asks the confused, surviving waiter amidst the carnage, as the panda makes towards the exit.
The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.
'Well, I'm a panda', he says, at the door.
'Look it up.
'The waiter turns to the relevant entry in the manual and, sure enough, finds an explanation.
'Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China.
Eats, shoots and leaves.
' I've actually noticed myself becoming extremely careful about punctuation.
If you get your punctuation wrong when programming, all sorts of bad things happen.
English is just a natural extension of this.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979810</id>
	<title>Oh, no...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265033760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm usually a grammar and spelling Nazi, but this thread invites the Nerdpocalypse. May God have mercy on our souls.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm usually a grammar and spelling Nazi , but this thread invites the Nerdpocalypse .
May God have mercy on our souls .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm usually a grammar and spelling Nazi, but this thread invites the Nerdpocalypse.
May God have mercy on our souls.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980690</id>
	<title>Re:And this is how we die</title>
	<author>twostix</author>
	<datestamp>1265037840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This keeps cropping up but nobody ever takes it to it's conclusion.</p><p>Every civilisation has declined over the course of generations.</p><p>Perhaps each generation notices that the next is lazy because it really is true, historically speaking it certainly is anyway. Countries rarely implode, rather they mostly just dribble away into irrelevance as each generation pisses away the freedoms, legacy, prosperity, luck, whatever, of the couple of generations before them that put in the extremely hard yards to build the place up to its peak.</p><p>Great Britain is the latest victim.  America will be the next and perhaps western civilisation in general is about to be eclipsed by Asia purely because they have the hunger that our grandfathers and greatgrandfathers did to build something amazing and we're to busy worrying about whether cooking crabs alive is a deep moral question that actually requires significant thought and time. Not to mention are binding ourselves up in so much legislation, petty beuracracy and infantile ideological "warfare" while borrowing money from Asia to fund our impossible state programs - while they go without and run their states far more frugally and realistically.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This keeps cropping up but nobody ever takes it to it 's conclusion.Every civilisation has declined over the course of generations.Perhaps each generation notices that the next is lazy because it really is true , historically speaking it certainly is anyway .
Countries rarely implode , rather they mostly just dribble away into irrelevance as each generation pisses away the freedoms , legacy , prosperity , luck , whatever , of the couple of generations before them that put in the extremely hard yards to build the place up to its peak.Great Britain is the latest victim .
America will be the next and perhaps western civilisation in general is about to be eclipsed by Asia purely because they have the hunger that our grandfathers and greatgrandfathers did to build something amazing and we 're to busy worrying about whether cooking crabs alive is a deep moral question that actually requires significant thought and time .
Not to mention are binding ourselves up in so much legislation , petty beuracracy and infantile ideological " warfare " while borrowing money from Asia to fund our impossible state programs - while they go without and run their states far more frugally and realistically .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This keeps cropping up but nobody ever takes it to it's conclusion.Every civilisation has declined over the course of generations.Perhaps each generation notices that the next is lazy because it really is true, historically speaking it certainly is anyway.
Countries rarely implode, rather they mostly just dribble away into irrelevance as each generation pisses away the freedoms, legacy, prosperity, luck, whatever, of the couple of generations before them that put in the extremely hard yards to build the place up to its peak.Great Britain is the latest victim.
America will be the next and perhaps western civilisation in general is about to be eclipsed by Asia purely because they have the hunger that our grandfathers and greatgrandfathers did to build something amazing and we're to busy worrying about whether cooking crabs alive is a deep moral question that actually requires significant thought and time.
Not to mention are binding ourselves up in so much legislation, petty beuracracy and infantile ideological "warfare" while borrowing money from Asia to fund our impossible state programs - while they go without and run their states far more frugally and realistically.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979890</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980864</id>
	<title>Re:This is pretty ridiculous</title>
	<author>MadKeithV</author>
	<datestamp>1265038680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Next stage in my plan for world dumbination: acquiring a university diploma impersonating a cat with a term paper titled "I can haz degree?".</htmltext>
<tokenext>Next stage in my plan for world dumbination : acquiring a university diploma impersonating a cat with a term paper titled " I can haz degree ?
" .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Next stage in my plan for world dumbination: acquiring a university diploma impersonating a cat with a term paper titled "I can haz degree?
".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980190</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981094</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>billius</author>
	<datestamp>1265039700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>"When I went to high school in the '70s I was never taught grammar in English. I learned grammar from Latin classes."</p></div> </blockquote><p>

You can blame the parents all you want, but the fact is simply that grammar isn't a part of the curriculum.  I learned essentially nothing about English grammar from school, save from a few lessons that some of my better teachers did *in spite* of the curriculum.  It's gotten to the point where it has become so embarrassing that they'd rather not confront the problem at all.  No one learns English grammar in grade school and by the time students reach high school, the administrators freak out and decide to make everyone take two semesters of "foreign language."  The students almost never learn to speak the language worth a damn, but that's okay because the American public doesn't care about foreign language education and the administrators can breathe a sigh of relief since the students now know what a verb is.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" When I went to high school in the '70s I was never taught grammar in English .
I learned grammar from Latin classes .
" You can blame the parents all you want , but the fact is simply that grammar is n't a part of the curriculum .
I learned essentially nothing about English grammar from school , save from a few lessons that some of my better teachers did * in spite * of the curriculum .
It 's gotten to the point where it has become so embarrassing that they 'd rather not confront the problem at all .
No one learns English grammar in grade school and by the time students reach high school , the administrators freak out and decide to make everyone take two semesters of " foreign language .
" The students almost never learn to speak the language worth a damn , but that 's okay because the American public does n't care about foreign language education and the administrators can breathe a sigh of relief since the students now know what a verb is .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"When I went to high school in the '70s I was never taught grammar in English.
I learned grammar from Latin classes.
" 

You can blame the parents all you want, but the fact is simply that grammar isn't a part of the curriculum.
I learned essentially nothing about English grammar from school, save from a few lessons that some of my better teachers did *in spite* of the curriculum.
It's gotten to the point where it has become so embarrassing that they'd rather not confront the problem at all.
No one learns English grammar in grade school and by the time students reach high school, the administrators freak out and decide to make everyone take two semesters of "foreign language.
"  The students almost never learn to speak the language worth a damn, but that's okay because the American public doesn't care about foreign language education and the administrators can breathe a sigh of relief since the students now know what a verb is.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979950</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983856</id>
	<title>Re:As a father...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265050620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've had several teachers over the years who have avoided using red ink because they felt it was "offensive to students", and made students "feel bad".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've had several teachers over the years who have avoided using red ink because they felt it was " offensive to students " , and made students " feel bad " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've had several teachers over the years who have avoided using red ink because they felt it was "offensive to students", and made students "feel bad".</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980568</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983072</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>shutdown -p now</author>
	<datestamp>1265047440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>That's because you were taught English by an English teacher, and the English people were taught English by their parents and other random people they happened to meet.</p></div><p>You mean, you don't have English taught in schools in US and UK?</p><p>In Russia, we have Russian (not the basics, obviously, but correct spelling, grammar, and eventually also style) taught in all schools, two hours per week, for 9 years.</p><p>To be honest, though, it doesn't seem to help much, lately...</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's because you were taught English by an English teacher , and the English people were taught English by their parents and other random people they happened to meet.You mean , you do n't have English taught in schools in US and UK ? In Russia , we have Russian ( not the basics , obviously , but correct spelling , grammar , and eventually also style ) taught in all schools , two hours per week , for 9 years.To be honest , though , it does n't seem to help much , lately.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's because you were taught English by an English teacher, and the English people were taught English by their parents and other random people they happened to meet.You mean, you don't have English taught in schools in US and UK?In Russia, we have Russian (not the basics, obviously, but correct spelling, grammar, and eventually also style) taught in all schools, two hours per week, for 9 years.To be honest, though, it doesn't seem to help much, lately...
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980886</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.31020914</id>
	<title>what's old is new</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265290020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is nothing new -- let's see, 30+ years ago when I was studying computer science my brother was a teaching fellow in the history dept.of a well known and highly respected university. His students would turn in illiterate essays that used ascii art then as well, e.g. using up-arrows instead of "increasing" and the like.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is nothing new -- let 's see , 30 + years ago when I was studying computer science my brother was a teaching fellow in the history dept.of a well known and highly respected university .
His students would turn in illiterate essays that used ascii art then as well , e.g .
using up-arrows instead of " increasing " and the like .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is nothing new -- let's see, 30+ years ago when I was studying computer science my brother was a teaching fellow in the history dept.of a well known and highly respected university.
His students would turn in illiterate essays that used ascii art then as well, e.g.
using up-arrows instead of "increasing" and the like.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979798</id>
	<title>unpossible</title>
	<author>MilkyTea</author>
	<datestamp>1265033700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>Me fail English? That's unpossible.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Me fail English ?
That 's unpossible .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Me fail English?
That's unpossible.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981132</id>
	<title>Re:And this is how we die</title>
	<author>cyn1c77</author>
	<datestamp>1265039880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>as long as i can remember, the next generation has always looked worse than the previous generation. mostly because they did thing differently. generation X was said to be lazy 15 years ago because they sat around with their computers all the time instead of working in a factory</p></div><p>I guess.  I think there has been a slow decline in generational work ethic since World War 2.  People from that generation always seemed incredibly capable to me, as if they could do anything.  The baby boomers were less capable, but still excelled at a few life skills and were generally well-mannered.  I always figured that the veterans beat that into their kids.  Most people in Generation X didn't seem to know how to change their oil, but most made it though college after suffering though adolescent angst.  The current teenage generation (don't know what they are called) can't seem to do anything except type on their cell phones while driving.  </p><p>I find that each generation has more useless people in it.  Maybe we need a big war to weed out all the rejects again and toughen everyone else up.    </p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>as long as i can remember , the next generation has always looked worse than the previous generation .
mostly because they did thing differently .
generation X was said to be lazy 15 years ago because they sat around with their computers all the time instead of working in a factoryI guess .
I think there has been a slow decline in generational work ethic since World War 2 .
People from that generation always seemed incredibly capable to me , as if they could do anything .
The baby boomers were less capable , but still excelled at a few life skills and were generally well-mannered .
I always figured that the veterans beat that into their kids .
Most people in Generation X did n't seem to know how to change their oil , but most made it though college after suffering though adolescent angst .
The current teenage generation ( do n't know what they are called ) ca n't seem to do anything except type on their cell phones while driving .
I find that each generation has more useless people in it .
Maybe we need a big war to weed out all the rejects again and toughen everyone else up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>as long as i can remember, the next generation has always looked worse than the previous generation.
mostly because they did thing differently.
generation X was said to be lazy 15 years ago because they sat around with their computers all the time instead of working in a factoryI guess.
I think there has been a slow decline in generational work ethic since World War 2.
People from that generation always seemed incredibly capable to me, as if they could do anything.
The baby boomers were less capable, but still excelled at a few life skills and were generally well-mannered.
I always figured that the veterans beat that into their kids.
Most people in Generation X didn't seem to know how to change their oil, but most made it though college after suffering though adolescent angst.
The current teenage generation (don't know what they are called) can't seem to do anything except type on their cell phones while driving.
I find that each generation has more useless people in it.
Maybe we need a big war to weed out all the rejects again and toughen everyone else up.    
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979890</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983188</id>
	<title>The article isn't well written</title>
	<author>Animats</author>
	<datestamp>1265047920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
The first sentence of the article reads:
<i>
"Little or no grammar teaching, cellphone texting, social networking sites like Facebook and Twitter, all are being blamed for an increasingly unacceptable number of post-secondary students who can't write properly."
</i>
</p><p>
"Increasingly unacceptable" - that's a modifier on an absolute, which is poor form.  The author is trying to express the concept of "larger", with emphasis added.  They did not succeed.
</p><p>
"Like" should have been "such as".  "Like" excludes the named items, which wasn't the intent.
</p><p>
The comma after "Twitter" ought to be a dash.
</p><p>
Perhaps the Canadian Press needs to employ better editors.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The first sentence of the article reads : " Little or no grammar teaching , cellphone texting , social networking sites like Facebook and Twitter , all are being blamed for an increasingly unacceptable number of post-secondary students who ca n't write properly .
" " Increasingly unacceptable " - that 's a modifier on an absolute , which is poor form .
The author is trying to express the concept of " larger " , with emphasis added .
They did not succeed .
" Like " should have been " such as " .
" Like " excludes the named items , which was n't the intent .
The comma after " Twitter " ought to be a dash .
Perhaps the Canadian Press needs to employ better editors .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
The first sentence of the article reads:

"Little or no grammar teaching, cellphone texting, social networking sites like Facebook and Twitter, all are being blamed for an increasingly unacceptable number of post-secondary students who can't write properly.
"


"Increasingly unacceptable" - that's a modifier on an absolute, which is poor form.
The author is trying to express the concept of "larger", with emphasis added.
They did not succeed.
"Like" should have been "such as".
"Like" excludes the named items, which wasn't the intent.
The comma after "Twitter" ought to be a dash.
Perhaps the Canadian Press needs to employ better editors.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982414</id>
	<title>Two Words: Application Process</title>
	<author>omnichad</author>
	<datestamp>1265044860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why are these idiots being let in?  Because they get government grants and crazy amounts of personal debt that they'll gladly hand you?  Not good enough.  I wish I went to a college that wasn't full of idiots.  I would have learned a lot more, as the classes weren't all geared to make sure that idiots can still scrape by and continue to fund the college.<br>
&nbsp; <br>And after switching from a state university to a private college, it got a lot better.  Sure, but not good enough.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why are these idiots being let in ?
Because they get government grants and crazy amounts of personal debt that they 'll gladly hand you ?
Not good enough .
I wish I went to a college that was n't full of idiots .
I would have learned a lot more , as the classes were n't all geared to make sure that idiots can still scrape by and continue to fund the college .
  And after switching from a state university to a private college , it got a lot better .
Sure , but not good enough .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why are these idiots being let in?
Because they get government grants and crazy amounts of personal debt that they'll gladly hand you?
Not good enough.
I wish I went to a college that wasn't full of idiots.
I would have learned a lot more, as the classes weren't all geared to make sure that idiots can still scrape by and continue to fund the college.
  And after switching from a state university to a private college, it got a lot better.
Sure, but not good enough.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981764</id>
	<title>Evolve or Die</title>
	<author>N8F8</author>
	<datestamp>1265042220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The English language must continue to evolve, or fork or the language will be supplanted by another.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The English language must continue to evolve , or fork or the language will be supplanted by another .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The English language must continue to evolve, or fork or the language will be supplanted by another.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980416</id>
	<title>Anti-intellectual BS</title>
	<author>AP31R0N</author>
	<datestamp>1265036640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Descriptivism coddles ignorance and laziness.  It's leaning on the hands of the Idiocracy clock.</p><p>Informal speech and writing have their place... in chat rooms, in the living room and so on.  But when you are at work or at school, you should put the laziness and excuses aside.</p><p>Not all change is evolution/good.  The collective singular was a good change.  Not knowing the difference between jealous and envious is not. That's just ignorance.  Using the word decimate when you mean obliterate is ignorance.  It's laziness to stay ignorant.  It's laziness and cowardice to tolerate or worse yet justify it.  "Poor Timmy can't tie his shoes, let's get him some velcro!"  Learning to tie your shoes might be a challenge at first, but once you get the hang of it, it's easy.</p><p>We can has as the cuz we want here.  But when you're at work or at school... run a fucking spell and grammar check.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Descriptivism coddles ignorance and laziness .
It 's leaning on the hands of the Idiocracy clock.Informal speech and writing have their place... in chat rooms , in the living room and so on .
But when you are at work or at school , you should put the laziness and excuses aside.Not all change is evolution/good .
The collective singular was a good change .
Not knowing the difference between jealous and envious is not .
That 's just ignorance .
Using the word decimate when you mean obliterate is ignorance .
It 's laziness to stay ignorant .
It 's laziness and cowardice to tolerate or worse yet justify it .
" Poor Timmy ca n't tie his shoes , let 's get him some velcro !
" Learning to tie your shoes might be a challenge at first , but once you get the hang of it , it 's easy.We can has as the cuz we want here .
But when you 're at work or at school... run a fucking spell and grammar check .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Descriptivism coddles ignorance and laziness.
It's leaning on the hands of the Idiocracy clock.Informal speech and writing have their place... in chat rooms, in the living room and so on.
But when you are at work or at school, you should put the laziness and excuses aside.Not all change is evolution/good.
The collective singular was a good change.
Not knowing the difference between jealous and envious is not.
That's just ignorance.
Using the word decimate when you mean obliterate is ignorance.
It's laziness to stay ignorant.
It's laziness and cowardice to tolerate or worse yet justify it.
"Poor Timmy can't tie his shoes, let's get him some velcro!
"  Learning to tie your shoes might be a challenge at first, but once you get the hang of it, it's easy.We can has as the cuz we want here.
But when you're at work or at school... run a fucking spell and grammar check.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979892</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980568</id>
	<title>As a father...</title>
	<author>Gybrwe666</author>
	<datestamp>1265037240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have five kids, ranging from two college graduates to a kindergartner, and I am not at all surprised.  At the risk of sounding like someone who sits on his front porch and reminisces about the good old days and walking uphill to school both ways, while waiting for kids to touch my property so I can yell at them, I firmly and insistently blame primary schools.  Over the years, somehow, phonics has increased in teaching, encouraging kids to try and spell more complex words (which is fine), but does not in any way penalize them for misspelling or bad grammar.  My 2nd grader routinely turns in papers with words that would be a challenge for a 6th grader, yet I don't see any red ink or corrections, telling them how to spell the word correctly.  I can only attribute this three ways: 1) the teacher doesn't have the time to do it (WTF?!?!?) or 2) they don't want to actually make someone feel bad for messing up (WTF?!?!?) or 3) they just don't care.  Probably a combination of all three.  This is especially prevalent with my 8th grader, whose grammar is only corrected for English class, but anything else she turns in for any other class is remarkably devoid of red ink to correct spelling and grammar.</p><p>With a lack of consistent reinforcement of the basics in every class and in every setting, is it any wonder that the kids can't spell when they get to college?  I recall getting points marked down in all my classes (including science classes) for misspellings, and I am stunned by the fact that somehow proper spelling and grammar is not considered something that anyone other than an English teacher should be concerned about when grading.</p><p>Recently, we allowed our teenager to get a Facebook account, with the proviso that we remain her friends and that we have access to the account.  I reply to every post she makes abusively correcting her piss-poor grammar.</p><p>Any way you cut it, a consistent use of proper red ink would likely solve this issue quickly, even for high-school aged children who have learned bad habits.</p><p>Bill</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have five kids , ranging from two college graduates to a kindergartner , and I am not at all surprised .
At the risk of sounding like someone who sits on his front porch and reminisces about the good old days and walking uphill to school both ways , while waiting for kids to touch my property so I can yell at them , I firmly and insistently blame primary schools .
Over the years , somehow , phonics has increased in teaching , encouraging kids to try and spell more complex words ( which is fine ) , but does not in any way penalize them for misspelling or bad grammar .
My 2nd grader routinely turns in papers with words that would be a challenge for a 6th grader , yet I do n't see any red ink or corrections , telling them how to spell the word correctly .
I can only attribute this three ways : 1 ) the teacher does n't have the time to do it ( WTF ? ! ? ! ?
) or 2 ) they do n't want to actually make someone feel bad for messing up ( WTF ? ! ? ! ?
) or 3 ) they just do n't care .
Probably a combination of all three .
This is especially prevalent with my 8th grader , whose grammar is only corrected for English class , but anything else she turns in for any other class is remarkably devoid of red ink to correct spelling and grammar.With a lack of consistent reinforcement of the basics in every class and in every setting , is it any wonder that the kids ca n't spell when they get to college ?
I recall getting points marked down in all my classes ( including science classes ) for misspellings , and I am stunned by the fact that somehow proper spelling and grammar is not considered something that anyone other than an English teacher should be concerned about when grading.Recently , we allowed our teenager to get a Facebook account , with the proviso that we remain her friends and that we have access to the account .
I reply to every post she makes abusively correcting her piss-poor grammar.Any way you cut it , a consistent use of proper red ink would likely solve this issue quickly , even for high-school aged children who have learned bad habits.Bill</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have five kids, ranging from two college graduates to a kindergartner, and I am not at all surprised.
At the risk of sounding like someone who sits on his front porch and reminisces about the good old days and walking uphill to school both ways, while waiting for kids to touch my property so I can yell at them, I firmly and insistently blame primary schools.
Over the years, somehow, phonics has increased in teaching, encouraging kids to try and spell more complex words (which is fine), but does not in any way penalize them for misspelling or bad grammar.
My 2nd grader routinely turns in papers with words that would be a challenge for a 6th grader, yet I don't see any red ink or corrections, telling them how to spell the word correctly.
I can only attribute this three ways: 1) the teacher doesn't have the time to do it (WTF?!?!?
) or 2) they don't want to actually make someone feel bad for messing up (WTF?!?!?
) or 3) they just don't care.
Probably a combination of all three.
This is especially prevalent with my 8th grader, whose grammar is only corrected for English class, but anything else she turns in for any other class is remarkably devoid of red ink to correct spelling and grammar.With a lack of consistent reinforcement of the basics in every class and in every setting, is it any wonder that the kids can't spell when they get to college?
I recall getting points marked down in all my classes (including science classes) for misspellings, and I am stunned by the fact that somehow proper spelling and grammar is not considered something that anyone other than an English teacher should be concerned about when grading.Recently, we allowed our teenager to get a Facebook account, with the proviso that we remain her friends and that we have access to the account.
I reply to every post she makes abusively correcting her piss-poor grammar.Any way you cut it, a consistent use of proper red ink would likely solve this issue quickly, even for high-school aged children who have learned bad habits.Bill</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980540</id>
	<title>Anonymous Coward</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265037120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Pfft. English, who needs english, I'm never going to England. --- Homer J. Simpson</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Pfft .
English , who needs english , I 'm never going to England .
--- Homer J. Simpson</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Pfft.
English, who needs english, I'm never going to England.
--- Homer J. Simpson</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980634</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe its the school thats failing</title>
	<author>plasticsquirrel</author>
	<datestamp>1265037540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Written English is more or less formalized and uses a fairly standard grammar. It is actually much more loose and flexible than most other languages in the world. Exactly which part of the formal grammar is failing to keep up with "modern society"? And why would society being modern have anything to do with it? As it is now, I fail to see any "we're so advanced that we're <i>transcending grammar!</i>" argument as having any validity. English is an enormously huge language with incredible flexibility, even in its most rigid written form. However, statements must be clear, and for this we rely on basic grammar, punctuation, etc.<br> <br>It just sounds like a bunch of ignorant children never learned their mother tongue. Would anyone want to buy a book or read a thesis that was written by someone who can't even write competently? How can any self-respecting English speaker not cringe at the sight of texting abbreviations or emoticons in formal writing?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Written English is more or less formalized and uses a fairly standard grammar .
It is actually much more loose and flexible than most other languages in the world .
Exactly which part of the formal grammar is failing to keep up with " modern society " ?
And why would society being modern have anything to do with it ?
As it is now , I fail to see any " we 're so advanced that we 're transcending grammar !
" argument as having any validity .
English is an enormously huge language with incredible flexibility , even in its most rigid written form .
However , statements must be clear , and for this we rely on basic grammar , punctuation , etc .
It just sounds like a bunch of ignorant children never learned their mother tongue .
Would anyone want to buy a book or read a thesis that was written by someone who ca n't even write competently ?
How can any self-respecting English speaker not cringe at the sight of texting abbreviations or emoticons in formal writing ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Written English is more or less formalized and uses a fairly standard grammar.
It is actually much more loose and flexible than most other languages in the world.
Exactly which part of the formal grammar is failing to keep up with "modern society"?
And why would society being modern have anything to do with it?
As it is now, I fail to see any "we're so advanced that we're transcending grammar!
" argument as having any validity.
English is an enormously huge language with incredible flexibility, even in its most rigid written form.
However, statements must be clear, and for this we rely on basic grammar, punctuation, etc.
It just sounds like a bunch of ignorant children never learned their mother tongue.
Would anyone want to buy a book or read a thesis that was written by someone who can't even write competently?
How can any self-respecting English speaker not cringe at the sight of texting abbreviations or emoticons in formal writing?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980058</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30993458</id>
	<title>Irrelevant.</title>
	<author>JonathanPDX</author>
	<datestamp>1265114760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Alas, the asteroid will be here long before this makes any difference to society, rendering the entire argument moot.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Alas , the asteroid will be here long before this makes any difference to society , rendering the entire argument moot .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Alas, the asteroid will be here long before this makes any difference to society, rendering the entire argument moot.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980488</id>
	<title>Re:hai</title>
	<author>msclrhd</author>
	<datestamp>1265036940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I specializ in de Ceiling Cat an look at de message he sez [http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php]. Iz importnt n stuff.</p><p>Yay! I haz Ceiling Cat degree!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I specializ in de Ceiling Cat an look at de message he sez [ http : //www.lolcatbible.com/index.php ] .
Iz importnt n stuff.Yay !
I haz Ceiling Cat degree !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I specializ in de Ceiling Cat an look at de message he sez [http://www.lolcatbible.com/index.php].
Iz importnt n stuff.Yay!
I haz Ceiling Cat degree!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980062</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979978</id>
	<title>You know what this means...</title>
	<author>JasonBee</author>
	<datestamp>1265034600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Time to go back to school! The bell curve is going to heavily favour those of us who know how to write...and spell.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Time to go back to school !
The bell curve is going to heavily favour those of us who know how to write...and spell .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Time to go back to school!
The bell curve is going to heavily favour those of us who know how to write...and spell.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982606</id>
	<title>Re:Changing language</title>
	<author>mikechant</author>
	<datestamp>1265045520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>English is becoming simpler in spelling, punctuation, and sentence structure.</i></p><p>I don't agree. A lot of the changes are not from 'complex form' to 'simple form' but from 'standard form' to 'random form'. People don't just dispense with punctuation marks which they don't understand and which *may* be redundant in context - they sprinkle them around "like Parmesan cheese", to quote TFA.</p><p>It doesn't simplify things when you start adding random apostrophes to some plurals and not others.</p><p>It doesn't simplify things when you use words like "loose" and "lose" or "your" and "you're" in a random interchangable way.</p><p>Because these changes are random, they don't lead anywhere, in particular they don't lead to a new 'accepted form', just to confusion and the impression that the writer doesn't care if they are understood correctly.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>English is becoming simpler in spelling , punctuation , and sentence structure.I do n't agree .
A lot of the changes are not from 'complex form ' to 'simple form ' but from 'standard form ' to 'random form' .
People do n't just dispense with punctuation marks which they do n't understand and which * may * be redundant in context - they sprinkle them around " like Parmesan cheese " , to quote TFA.It does n't simplify things when you start adding random apostrophes to some plurals and not others.It does n't simplify things when you use words like " loose " and " lose " or " your " and " you 're " in a random interchangable way.Because these changes are random , they do n't lead anywhere , in particular they do n't lead to a new 'accepted form ' , just to confusion and the impression that the writer does n't care if they are understood correctly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>English is becoming simpler in spelling, punctuation, and sentence structure.I don't agree.
A lot of the changes are not from 'complex form' to 'simple form' but from 'standard form' to 'random form'.
People don't just dispense with punctuation marks which they don't understand and which *may* be redundant in context - they sprinkle them around "like Parmesan cheese", to quote TFA.It doesn't simplify things when you start adding random apostrophes to some plurals and not others.It doesn't simplify things when you use words like "loose" and "lose" or "your" and "you're" in a random interchangable way.Because these changes are random, they don't lead anywhere, in particular they don't lead to a new 'accepted form', just to confusion and the impression that the writer doesn't care if they are understood correctly.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981788</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.31065550</id>
	<title>Re:Foreign students at University of Waterloo</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265625720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The results may also potentially be skewed, as not everyone writes the ELPE.  I didn't have to write it because I achieved a grade in OAC English higher than 80\%.  I don't know if they still have that rule now (with grade 12 marks instead of OAC), but I wouldn't be surprised if some students are exempt due to their grade 12 English scores.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The results may also potentially be skewed , as not everyone writes the ELPE .
I did n't have to write it because I achieved a grade in OAC English higher than 80 \ % .
I do n't know if they still have that rule now ( with grade 12 marks instead of OAC ) , but I would n't be surprised if some students are exempt due to their grade 12 English scores .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The results may also potentially be skewed, as not everyone writes the ELPE.
I didn't have to write it because I achieved a grade in OAC English higher than 80\%.
I don't know if they still have that rule now (with grade 12 marks instead of OAC), but I wouldn't be surprised if some students are exempt due to their grade 12 English scores.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980310</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982748</id>
	<title>Re:Just out of curiousity...</title>
	<author>dkleinsc</author>
	<datestamp>1265046120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In all seriousness, "eh" is an interjection.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In all seriousness , " eh " is an interjection .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In all seriousness, "eh" is an interjection.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979898</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981200</id>
	<title>Re:And this is how we die</title>
	<author>maxume</author>
	<datestamp>1265040120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yes, the large number of people choosing to come here for education is a sure sign of decline.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yes , the large number of people choosing to come here for education is a sure sign of decline .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yes, the large number of people choosing to come here for education is a sure sign of decline.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980386</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983238</id>
	<title>"University of Waterloo"</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265048100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's "University of Waterloo", not "Waterloo University". Jeez.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's " University of Waterloo " , not " Waterloo University " .
Jeez .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's "University of Waterloo", not "Waterloo University".
Jeez.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30985850</id>
	<title>Don't get me started...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265015160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Don't get me started on this shit. I went to high school from 1994 to 1998, during the golden age of IRC--and the dawn of widespread use of all-lowercase sentences lacking punctuation, leetspeak, emoticons, and other such things. Call it a precursor to the texting that would come many years later.</p><p>I managed to make it all the way through college and grad school getting mostly A's on written papers, where I paid meticulous attention to grammar, spelling, punctuation, and just the whole report making sense.</p><p>When I was a \_senior\_, I had an Information Studies professor dock points off other students' papers for improper grammar/punctuation/etc, sending students into an uproar. I was 21 fucking years old, a high school graduate, less than a year from my BS, and surrounded by students who think they shouldn't be expected to write coherent sentences! AAAAAAAAAARRRRRGH!</p><p>For what it's worth, even when I text today, I do my best to write proper sentences with punctuation.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't get me started on this shit .
I went to high school from 1994 to 1998 , during the golden age of IRC--and the dawn of widespread use of all-lowercase sentences lacking punctuation , leetspeak , emoticons , and other such things .
Call it a precursor to the texting that would come many years later.I managed to make it all the way through college and grad school getting mostly A 's on written papers , where I paid meticulous attention to grammar , spelling , punctuation , and just the whole report making sense.When I was a \ _senior \ _ , I had an Information Studies professor dock points off other students ' papers for improper grammar/punctuation/etc , sending students into an uproar .
I was 21 fucking years old , a high school graduate , less than a year from my BS , and surrounded by students who think they should n't be expected to write coherent sentences !
AAAAAAAAAARRRRRGH ! For what it 's worth , even when I text today , I do my best to write proper sentences with punctuation .
: - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't get me started on this shit.
I went to high school from 1994 to 1998, during the golden age of IRC--and the dawn of widespread use of all-lowercase sentences lacking punctuation, leetspeak, emoticons, and other such things.
Call it a precursor to the texting that would come many years later.I managed to make it all the way through college and grad school getting mostly A's on written papers, where I paid meticulous attention to grammar, spelling, punctuation, and just the whole report making sense.When I was a \_senior\_, I had an Information Studies professor dock points off other students' papers for improper grammar/punctuation/etc, sending students into an uproar.
I was 21 fucking years old, a high school graduate, less than a year from my BS, and surrounded by students who think they shouldn't be expected to write coherent sentences!
AAAAAAAAAARRRRRGH!For what it's worth, even when I text today, I do my best to write proper sentences with punctuation.
:-)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982992</id>
	<title>Re:Relevant</title>
	<author>Blakey Rat</author>
	<datestamp>1265047080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It's an extremely hilariously-worded way of saying: "the bathroom smelled like death." At least, I can't think of what else they intended with "not relevant to life."</p><p>(Assuming the saying "smelled like death" is in your native language... the bathroom stunk.)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It 's an extremely hilariously-worded way of saying : " the bathroom smelled like death .
" At least , I ca n't think of what else they intended with " not relevant to life .
" ( Assuming the saying " smelled like death " is in your native language... the bathroom stunk .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It's an extremely hilariously-worded way of saying: "the bathroom smelled like death.
" At least, I can't think of what else they intended with "not relevant to life.
"(Assuming the saying "smelled like death" is in your native language... the bathroom stunk.
)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981954</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982446</id>
	<title>Re:Spell Checking</title>
	<author>hedwards</author>
	<datestamp>1265044920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>When I was in school, they spent huge amounts of time on spelling, and basically none on grammar. I didn't really learn grammar, apart from during Latin, until senior year of college when I took a community journalism class. I'm not sure what it's like now or in other parts of the world, but it's not really fair to expect students to know something that the teachers didn't have time to teach.</htmltext>
<tokenext>When I was in school , they spent huge amounts of time on spelling , and basically none on grammar .
I did n't really learn grammar , apart from during Latin , until senior year of college when I took a community journalism class .
I 'm not sure what it 's like now or in other parts of the world , but it 's not really fair to expect students to know something that the teachers did n't have time to teach .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>When I was in school, they spent huge amounts of time on spelling, and basically none on grammar.
I didn't really learn grammar, apart from during Latin, until senior year of college when I took a community journalism class.
I'm not sure what it's like now or in other parts of the world, but it's not really fair to expect students to know something that the teachers didn't have time to teach.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980082</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983796</id>
	<title>Re:Isaac Asimov had it Right</title>
	<author>potpie</author>
	<datestamp>1265050440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I agree with you on that last point, but I would prefer to generalize further.  Nobody who speaks a language of ANY level of complexity has any right to criticize people who speak ANY other language.  Just as it is not stupidity to speak Ebonics, neither is it arrogance to speak Standard American English, or Middle English for that matter.  Nor are the rules of English grammar that complicated, but native speakers must view it through the kaleidescope of acquisition.  That is, you do not learn the grammar of English, you just internalize it as a child, and you don't get it all from one trusted source.  You hear different people speak different dialects and you put together your own idiolect without any true standard to point at and say "there are the nuts and bolts of my grammar."  Asimov had his heart in the right place, but problems with literacy are not rooted in language.  Also keep in mind that writing is not Language, it is a secondary system of representation.  So while simplifying spelling could help (but consider how much more difficult it is to be literate in China, and their literacy rate is 93.3\%), simplifying grammar would be neither easy to do, easy for people to learn, adopted by anyone, nor long-lived.  Complexity in languages arises from speakers like you and me and everyone else.  It is not bestowed by college professors.  Indeed, Ebonics is in many ways FAR more complex.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree with you on that last point , but I would prefer to generalize further .
Nobody who speaks a language of ANY level of complexity has any right to criticize people who speak ANY other language .
Just as it is not stupidity to speak Ebonics , neither is it arrogance to speak Standard American English , or Middle English for that matter .
Nor are the rules of English grammar that complicated , but native speakers must view it through the kaleidescope of acquisition .
That is , you do not learn the grammar of English , you just internalize it as a child , and you do n't get it all from one trusted source .
You hear different people speak different dialects and you put together your own idiolect without any true standard to point at and say " there are the nuts and bolts of my grammar .
" Asimov had his heart in the right place , but problems with literacy are not rooted in language .
Also keep in mind that writing is not Language , it is a secondary system of representation .
So while simplifying spelling could help ( but consider how much more difficult it is to be literate in China , and their literacy rate is 93.3 \ % ) , simplifying grammar would be neither easy to do , easy for people to learn , adopted by anyone , nor long-lived .
Complexity in languages arises from speakers like you and me and everyone else .
It is not bestowed by college professors .
Indeed , Ebonics is in many ways FAR more complex .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree with you on that last point, but I would prefer to generalize further.
Nobody who speaks a language of ANY level of complexity has any right to criticize people who speak ANY other language.
Just as it is not stupidity to speak Ebonics, neither is it arrogance to speak Standard American English, or Middle English for that matter.
Nor are the rules of English grammar that complicated, but native speakers must view it through the kaleidescope of acquisition.
That is, you do not learn the grammar of English, you just internalize it as a child, and you don't get it all from one trusted source.
You hear different people speak different dialects and you put together your own idiolect without any true standard to point at and say "there are the nuts and bolts of my grammar.
"  Asimov had his heart in the right place, but problems with literacy are not rooted in language.
Also keep in mind that writing is not Language, it is a secondary system of representation.
So while simplifying spelling could help (but consider how much more difficult it is to be literate in China, and their literacy rate is 93.3\%), simplifying grammar would be neither easy to do, easy for people to learn, adopted by anyone, nor long-lived.
Complexity in languages arises from speakers like you and me and everyone else.
It is not bestowed by college professors.
Indeed, Ebonics is in many ways FAR more complex.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983098</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983074</id>
	<title>Re:As a father...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265047440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>As a former 4th grade teacher, I offer option 4) they don't want to take a lot of crap from parents (and the principal, school board, etc.) when they knock little Timmy's self esteem. Basically the reason I got out of teaching was the 30\% of parents who are unable to deal with the fact that little Timmy is, indeed average (or below average)--any "needs to improve" comment, any grade lower than an "A", any suggestion that perhaps--just perhaps--little Timmy needs to drag his butt from in front of the TV and do some homework was met with hostile incredulity.</p><p>I really enjoyed interacting with kids and I loved seeing them get excited about things they were learning. But it wasn't worth the daily frustration.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>As a former 4th grade teacher , I offer option 4 ) they do n't want to take a lot of crap from parents ( and the principal , school board , etc .
) when they knock little Timmy 's self esteem .
Basically the reason I got out of teaching was the 30 \ % of parents who are unable to deal with the fact that little Timmy is , indeed average ( or below average ) --any " needs to improve " comment , any grade lower than an " A " , any suggestion that perhaps--just perhaps--little Timmy needs to drag his butt from in front of the TV and do some homework was met with hostile incredulity.I really enjoyed interacting with kids and I loved seeing them get excited about things they were learning .
But it was n't worth the daily frustration .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>As a former 4th grade teacher, I offer option 4) they don't want to take a lot of crap from parents (and the principal, school board, etc.
) when they knock little Timmy's self esteem.
Basically the reason I got out of teaching was the 30\% of parents who are unable to deal with the fact that little Timmy is, indeed average (or below average)--any "needs to improve" comment, any grade lower than an "A", any suggestion that perhaps--just perhaps--little Timmy needs to drag his butt from in front of the TV and do some homework was met with hostile incredulity.I really enjoyed interacting with kids and I loved seeing them get excited about things they were learning.
But it wasn't worth the daily frustration.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980568</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983830</id>
	<title>I've said it for years:</title>
	<author>Firewheels</author>
	<datestamp>1265050560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>'texting' will be the death of the English language as we've known it.</p><p>Or to put it another way:</p><p>Quick!  Get those generators hooked up to Twain, Hemingway, and Shakespeare!  When they start spinning, we'll have all the energy we need.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>'texting ' will be the death of the English language as we 've known it.Or to put it another way : Quick !
Get those generators hooked up to Twain , Hemingway , and Shakespeare !
When they start spinning , we 'll have all the energy we need .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>'texting' will be the death of the English language as we've known it.Or to put it another way:Quick!
Get those generators hooked up to Twain, Hemingway, and Shakespeare!
When they start spinning, we'll have all the energy we need.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982044</id>
	<title>Re:Spell Checking</title>
	<author>tsstahl</author>
	<datestamp>1265043420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I'd like to see some hard evidence before I agree with this statement.  In my experience, people tend to make spelling errors and go with the spell <b>chedking</b> results without actually investigating the error.</p></div><p>Emphasis mine.

I'm not normally a grammar Nazi, but given the context, I took it as a challenge.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd like to see some hard evidence before I agree with this statement .
In my experience , people tend to make spelling errors and go with the spell chedking results without actually investigating the error.Emphasis mine .
I 'm not normally a grammar Nazi , but given the context , I took it as a challenge .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd like to see some hard evidence before I agree with this statement.
In my experience, people tend to make spelling errors and go with the spell chedking results without actually investigating the error.Emphasis mine.
I'm not normally a grammar Nazi, but given the context, I took it as a challenge.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979850</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30993208</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>Elky Elk</author>
	<datestamp>1265112540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm from the UK. Maybe it was some trendy new teaching but I don't ever remember being taught grammar at school, except in foreign language classes. My dad was the one who told me the correct use of the apostrophe.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm from the UK .
Maybe it was some trendy new teaching but I do n't ever remember being taught grammar at school , except in foreign language classes .
My dad was the one who told me the correct use of the apostrophe .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm from the UK.
Maybe it was some trendy new teaching but I don't ever remember being taught grammar at school, except in foreign language classes.
My dad was the one who told me the correct use of the apostrophe.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980048</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980454</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe its the school thats failing</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265036760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>
Did anyone every stop to consider that language is evolving and that it is the traditional grammar which is failing to keep up with modern society?
</i> <br>
<br>
This is honestly one of the most intellectually lazy excuses ever. Or to put it in terms you geeks might understand: "My code failed to compile because the compiler isn't aware of my new syntax."</htmltext>
<tokenext>Did anyone every stop to consider that language is evolving and that it is the traditional grammar which is failing to keep up with modern society ?
This is honestly one of the most intellectually lazy excuses ever .
Or to put it in terms you geeks might understand : " My code failed to compile because the compiler is n't aware of my new syntax .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
Did anyone every stop to consider that language is evolving and that it is the traditional grammar which is failing to keep up with modern society?
This is honestly one of the most intellectually lazy excuses ever.
Or to put it in terms you geeks might understand: "My code failed to compile because the compiler isn't aware of my new syntax.
"</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980058</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981650</id>
	<title>Re:Universities can't keep up</title>
	<author>mcgrew</author>
	<datestamp>1265041920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>We all know what 'cuz' means</i></p><p>Yo, dog, it all be good. Yo cuz be yo homie.</p><p>Using the ghetto slang "cuz" is simply laziness. "Because" is literate, "cuz" is not. Prison/ghetto literacy is about as intelligent as the stupid "pants down showing your underwear" prison/ghetto fashion. If you use a term that was coined by people who are proud of their illiteracy, you will be seeen as illiterate.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We all know what 'cuz ' meansYo , dog , it all be good .
Yo cuz be yo homie.Using the ghetto slang " cuz " is simply laziness .
" Because " is literate , " cuz " is not .
Prison/ghetto literacy is about as intelligent as the stupid " pants down showing your underwear " prison/ghetto fashion .
If you use a term that was coined by people who are proud of their illiteracy , you will be seeen as illiterate .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We all know what 'cuz' meansYo, dog, it all be good.
Yo cuz be yo homie.Using the ghetto slang "cuz" is simply laziness.
"Because" is literate, "cuz" is not.
Prison/ghetto literacy is about as intelligent as the stupid "pants down showing your underwear" prison/ghetto fashion.
If you use a term that was coined by people who are proud of their illiteracy, you will be seeen as illiterate.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979892</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981676</id>
	<title>One of few universities...?</title>
	<author>mark-t</author>
	<datestamp>1265041980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I find that odd, because the institution I went to, and the places that my various kids went to, all had English competency exams for entry.  I thought it was the norm, not the exception.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I find that odd , because the institution I went to , and the places that my various kids went to , all had English competency exams for entry .
I thought it was the norm , not the exception .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I find that odd, because the institution I went to, and the places that my various kids went to, all had English competency exams for entry.
I thought it was the norm, not the exception.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982644</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>xaxa</author>
	<datestamp>1265045640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Does this happen in other languages too? It could be a result of the way English is taught in school -- in the UK there's not much emphasis on grammar or structure. But, when I learnt French, German and Latin at school we studied the grammar in detail. Are French, German and, erm, Roman children taught their own language more rigorously?</p><p>I found a <a href="http://web.aqa.org.uk/qual/newgcses/english\_med/new/english\_a\_materials.php?id=02&amp;prev=02&amp;tabid=7" title="aqa.org.uk">sample GCSE (age 16) English exam paper</a> [aqa.org.uk], and mark schemes etc. There are plenty of marks for using good English, but I expect you could still pass without getting many of them as there are also plenty of marks for conveying ideas and showing an understanding of the material.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Does this happen in other languages too ?
It could be a result of the way English is taught in school -- in the UK there 's not much emphasis on grammar or structure .
But , when I learnt French , German and Latin at school we studied the grammar in detail .
Are French , German and , erm , Roman children taught their own language more rigorously ? I found a sample GCSE ( age 16 ) English exam paper [ aqa.org.uk ] , and mark schemes etc .
There are plenty of marks for using good English , but I expect you could still pass without getting many of them as there are also plenty of marks for conveying ideas and showing an understanding of the material .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Does this happen in other languages too?
It could be a result of the way English is taught in school -- in the UK there's not much emphasis on grammar or structure.
But, when I learnt French, German and Latin at school we studied the grammar in detail.
Are French, German and, erm, Roman children taught their own language more rigorously?I found a sample GCSE (age 16) English exam paper [aqa.org.uk], and mark schemes etc.
There are plenty of marks for using good English, but I expect you could still pass without getting many of them as there are also plenty of marks for conveying ideas and showing an understanding of the material.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980048</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983722</id>
	<title>Re:Spell Checking</title>
	<author>chefmonkey</author>
	<datestamp>1265050140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Case in point: TFA contains the following gem: "The words 'a lot' have become one word, for everyone, as far as I can tell. 'Definitely' is always spelled with an 'a' -'definitely'."</p><p>Clearly the final word in that sentence was supposed to be intentionally misspelled. But some moron copy editor with a spell checker decided to "fix" it without first checking the context. In doing so, he rendered the sentence complete nonsense.</p><p>Unless, of course, they were interviewing the lead character from Rain Man.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Case in point : TFA contains the following gem : " The words 'a lot ' have become one word , for everyone , as far as I can tell .
'Definitely ' is always spelled with an 'a ' -'definitely' .
" Clearly the final word in that sentence was supposed to be intentionally misspelled .
But some moron copy editor with a spell checker decided to " fix " it without first checking the context .
In doing so , he rendered the sentence complete nonsense.Unless , of course , they were interviewing the lead character from Rain Man .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Case in point: TFA contains the following gem: "The words 'a lot' have become one word, for everyone, as far as I can tell.
'Definitely' is always spelled with an 'a' -'definitely'.
"Clearly the final word in that sentence was supposed to be intentionally misspelled.
But some moron copy editor with a spell checker decided to "fix" it without first checking the context.
In doing so, he rendered the sentence complete nonsense.Unless, of course, they were interviewing the lead character from Rain Man.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979850</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983008</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>DarthVain</author>
	<datestamp>1265047140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This actually became apparent to me a few years ago. As part of some work training, I got signed up for a course called something like "Business Writing for Clarity and Conciseness". Apparently my manager thought I was too verbose and tended to go on and on about whatever I was writing about and needed a lesson in brevity.</p><p>Anyway once I attended, it quickly became apparent that this was a class for people that had English as a second language (specifically french speaking). Upon figuring this out I thought it would be a cake walk. I always did well in English in high school, and while I took sciences in university, I was still required to do formal papers, and pretty much thought this would be a breeze because of it.</p><p>I was somewhat surprised. While it was no lie that my English was indeed quite good, I quickly was alerted to a deficiency in my knowlege. It wasn't so much that I was doing anything incorrect, however I found that while I knew what to do, I had absolutely no idea why.</p><p>The course was about the equivalent of first year English university course, and was actually taught by a professor who taught at the local university. When I finished a composition for her, she would ask me why I made the decisions I had. I think her intent was to use me as an example for the class (as indeed I was really the only one there with English as a first language). However my only response was, "I don't know, it just feels right".</p><p>For the duration of the course we went through the mechanics of English writing construction and I actually found it quite instructive. Thinking back I am not sure I was ever taught this is high school, and I think more emphasis was placed on creativity. It very well could be that I just didn't pay attention and was just a crappy student.</p><p>Anyway I thought it interesting that I always knew what to do, but when questioned had no idea why. I would bet that there are many other folks in the same situation and are not even aware.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This actually became apparent to me a few years ago .
As part of some work training , I got signed up for a course called something like " Business Writing for Clarity and Conciseness " .
Apparently my manager thought I was too verbose and tended to go on and on about whatever I was writing about and needed a lesson in brevity.Anyway once I attended , it quickly became apparent that this was a class for people that had English as a second language ( specifically french speaking ) .
Upon figuring this out I thought it would be a cake walk .
I always did well in English in high school , and while I took sciences in university , I was still required to do formal papers , and pretty much thought this would be a breeze because of it.I was somewhat surprised .
While it was no lie that my English was indeed quite good , I quickly was alerted to a deficiency in my knowlege .
It was n't so much that I was doing anything incorrect , however I found that while I knew what to do , I had absolutely no idea why.The course was about the equivalent of first year English university course , and was actually taught by a professor who taught at the local university .
When I finished a composition for her , she would ask me why I made the decisions I had .
I think her intent was to use me as an example for the class ( as indeed I was really the only one there with English as a first language ) .
However my only response was , " I do n't know , it just feels right " .For the duration of the course we went through the mechanics of English writing construction and I actually found it quite instructive .
Thinking back I am not sure I was ever taught this is high school , and I think more emphasis was placed on creativity .
It very well could be that I just did n't pay attention and was just a crappy student.Anyway I thought it interesting that I always knew what to do , but when questioned had no idea why .
I would bet that there are many other folks in the same situation and are not even aware .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This actually became apparent to me a few years ago.
As part of some work training, I got signed up for a course called something like "Business Writing for Clarity and Conciseness".
Apparently my manager thought I was too verbose and tended to go on and on about whatever I was writing about and needed a lesson in brevity.Anyway once I attended, it quickly became apparent that this was a class for people that had English as a second language (specifically french speaking).
Upon figuring this out I thought it would be a cake walk.
I always did well in English in high school, and while I took sciences in university, I was still required to do formal papers, and pretty much thought this would be a breeze because of it.I was somewhat surprised.
While it was no lie that my English was indeed quite good, I quickly was alerted to a deficiency in my knowlege.
It wasn't so much that I was doing anything incorrect, however I found that while I knew what to do, I had absolutely no idea why.The course was about the equivalent of first year English university course, and was actually taught by a professor who taught at the local university.
When I finished a composition for her, she would ask me why I made the decisions I had.
I think her intent was to use me as an example for the class (as indeed I was really the only one there with English as a first language).
However my only response was, "I don't know, it just feels right".For the duration of the course we went through the mechanics of English writing construction and I actually found it quite instructive.
Thinking back I am not sure I was ever taught this is high school, and I think more emphasis was placed on creativity.
It very well could be that I just didn't pay attention and was just a crappy student.Anyway I thought it interesting that I always knew what to do, but when questioned had no idea why.
I would bet that there are many other folks in the same situation and are not even aware.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983384</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe its the school thats failing</title>
	<author>canajin56</author>
	<datestamp>1265048760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
i no rite lang iz evolvin an if u can undastand den wats the prob huh?  lang is 2 comoonikate ideaz n if u git wat im sayin den its  dun its job an who cares wat a dikshunary sez, ppl who r all "oh, rite proper lol" r just stuck up tards dey tink dey smart cus they can memirize sum words in a book, but der just nerds wit no life, dey wuldnt stand 5 min in da reel wurld.
</p><p>
No.  I'm a TA at the very university in question in TFA.  It's not just that they can't spell, and have no sense of grammar.  They can't communicate ideas.  When some of these students submit assignments, the spelling can even be correct, but I have absolutely no idea what they mean, it's gibberish.  Some of the ones with problems are foreign exchange students.  On the one hand, it's not their fault, they're still learning.  On the other hand, we give them ESL exams to make sure they're able to keep up with courses taught in English, so they better be able to!  But most of the people with English problems are the locals.  They just can't communicate an idea to save their life.  So, I say again, no, it's not just that their grammar and spelling suck, it's that they can't communicate an idea.  Evolution or not, if you cant' communicate an idea, you need better language skills.  Some of them also seem equally unable to understand English, either.  They read questions and they just can't follow what they mean.  So, fuck you for saying we should be writing our exams in SMS because we've made them inaccessible to changing society.
</p><p>
As penance, go read the comments on icanhascheezburger.com, and realize exactly WHAT you are chastising us for not accepting as FORMAL ESSAYS.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>i no rite lang iz evolvin an if u can undastand den wats the prob huh ?
lang is 2 comoonikate ideaz n if u git wat im sayin den its dun its job an who cares wat a dikshunary sez , ppl who r all " oh , rite proper lol " r just stuck up tards dey tink dey smart cus they can memirize sum words in a book , but der just nerds wit no life , dey wuldnt stand 5 min in da reel wurld .
No. I 'm a TA at the very university in question in TFA .
It 's not just that they ca n't spell , and have no sense of grammar .
They ca n't communicate ideas .
When some of these students submit assignments , the spelling can even be correct , but I have absolutely no idea what they mean , it 's gibberish .
Some of the ones with problems are foreign exchange students .
On the one hand , it 's not their fault , they 're still learning .
On the other hand , we give them ESL exams to make sure they 're able to keep up with courses taught in English , so they better be able to !
But most of the people with English problems are the locals .
They just ca n't communicate an idea to save their life .
So , I say again , no , it 's not just that their grammar and spelling suck , it 's that they ca n't communicate an idea .
Evolution or not , if you cant ' communicate an idea , you need better language skills .
Some of them also seem equally unable to understand English , either .
They read questions and they just ca n't follow what they mean .
So , fuck you for saying we should be writing our exams in SMS because we 've made them inaccessible to changing society .
As penance , go read the comments on icanhascheezburger.com , and realize exactly WHAT you are chastising us for not accepting as FORMAL ESSAYS .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
i no rite lang iz evolvin an if u can undastand den wats the prob huh?
lang is 2 comoonikate ideaz n if u git wat im sayin den its  dun its job an who cares wat a dikshunary sez, ppl who r all "oh, rite proper lol" r just stuck up tards dey tink dey smart cus they can memirize sum words in a book, but der just nerds wit no life, dey wuldnt stand 5 min in da reel wurld.
No.  I'm a TA at the very university in question in TFA.
It's not just that they can't spell, and have no sense of grammar.
They can't communicate ideas.
When some of these students submit assignments, the spelling can even be correct, but I have absolutely no idea what they mean, it's gibberish.
Some of the ones with problems are foreign exchange students.
On the one hand, it's not their fault, they're still learning.
On the other hand, we give them ESL exams to make sure they're able to keep up with courses taught in English, so they better be able to!
But most of the people with English problems are the locals.
They just can't communicate an idea to save their life.
So, I say again, no, it's not just that their grammar and spelling suck, it's that they can't communicate an idea.
Evolution or not, if you cant' communicate an idea, you need better language skills.
Some of them also seem equally unable to understand English, either.
They read questions and they just can't follow what they mean.
So, fuck you for saying we should be writing our exams in SMS because we've made them inaccessible to changing society.
As penance, go read the comments on icanhascheezburger.com, and realize exactly WHAT you are chastising us for not accepting as FORMAL ESSAYS.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980058</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980868</id>
	<title>My favorite part of the article...</title>
	<author>proxy318</author>
	<datestamp>1265038680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>"You can go back and read Plato and see Socrates talking about the allegations that this generation isn't as not as good as previous ones," he notes.</p></div>
</blockquote><p>

"isn't as not as good". Yep. Sounds about right for an article criticizing spelling and grammar.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" You can go back and read Plato and see Socrates talking about the allegations that this generation is n't as not as good as previous ones , " he notes .
" is n't as not as good " .
Yep. Sounds about right for an article criticizing spelling and grammar .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"You can go back and read Plato and see Socrates talking about the allegations that this generation isn't as not as good as previous ones," he notes.
"isn't as not as good".
Yep. Sounds about right for an article criticizing spelling and grammar.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30986344</id>
	<title>I like this quote from the article:</title>
	<author>treeves</author>
	<datestamp>1265016780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>"I get their essays and I go 'You obviously don't know what a sentence fragment is. You think commas are sort of like parmesan cheese that you sprinkle on your words'," said Budra.</p></div><p>"I go"???</p><p>So, is he, like, teaching them Valley-speak to replace their IM-speak? I'm like, so sure!</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>" I get their essays and I go 'You obviously do n't know what a sentence fragment is .
You think commas are sort of like parmesan cheese that you sprinkle on your words ' , " said Budra .
" I go " ? ?
? So , is he , like , teaching them Valley-speak to replace their IM-speak ?
I 'm like , so sure !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"I get their essays and I go 'You obviously don't know what a sentence fragment is.
You think commas are sort of like parmesan cheese that you sprinkle on your words'," said Budra.
"I go"??
?So, is he, like, teaching them Valley-speak to replace their IM-speak?
I'm like, so sure!
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979952</id>
	<title>Re:And this is how we die</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265034540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Actually... I do fault the teachers unions... They have kept really shitty teachers teaching and keeping standards testing to be implemented for hiring and continued employment of teachers. I recall my second grade teacher pronouncing chameleon as "cham-a-lon". It wasnt until a very well educated and world traveled substitute teacher corrected us did we understand that much of what our teacher was teaching us was just wrong.</p><p>It's sorta odd. Grammar checking is enabled by default in MS word. Do kids just ignore it?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Actually... I do fault the teachers unions... They have kept really shitty teachers teaching and keeping standards testing to be implemented for hiring and continued employment of teachers .
I recall my second grade teacher pronouncing chameleon as " cham-a-lon " .
It wasnt until a very well educated and world traveled substitute teacher corrected us did we understand that much of what our teacher was teaching us was just wrong.It 's sorta odd .
Grammar checking is enabled by default in MS word .
Do kids just ignore it ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Actually... I do fault the teachers unions... They have kept really shitty teachers teaching and keeping standards testing to be implemented for hiring and continued employment of teachers.
I recall my second grade teacher pronouncing chameleon as "cham-a-lon".
It wasnt until a very well educated and world traveled substitute teacher corrected us did we understand that much of what our teacher was teaching us was just wrong.It's sorta odd.
Grammar checking is enabled by default in MS word.
Do kids just ignore it?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979816</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982592</id>
	<title>And yet...</title>
	<author>jandersen</author>
	<datestamp>1265045520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Some would argue that the proper language of any country is the language spoken by the people there. And the correct form of writing is the form that people choose, whether that is by means of exotic spelling, ideographs or petroglyhs.</p><p>Now, for a refreshingly different form of English (-ish), see:</p><p><a href="http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/tokpisin/" title="radioaustralia.net.au">http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/tokpisin/</a> [radioaustralia.net.au]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Some would argue that the proper language of any country is the language spoken by the people there .
And the correct form of writing is the form that people choose , whether that is by means of exotic spelling , ideographs or petroglyhs.Now , for a refreshingly different form of English ( -ish ) , see : http : //www.radioaustralia.net.au/tokpisin/ [ radioaustralia.net.au ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Some would argue that the proper language of any country is the language spoken by the people there.
And the correct form of writing is the form that people choose, whether that is by means of exotic spelling, ideographs or petroglyhs.Now, for a refreshingly different form of English (-ish), see:http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/tokpisin/ [radioaustralia.net.au]</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980298</id>
	<title>Exaggerated much?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265036100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>While I definitely agree there is a problem with people not caring about proper writing (this is also the case with my native language, Dutch); I would say that "Academic papers are riddled with 'cuz'..." is a definite exaggeration. Never have I encountered such an article.
I've seen some really badly written articles while still being reviewed (they didn't get accepted), and even those did not contain abbreviations such as 'cuz'.</htmltext>
<tokenext>While I definitely agree there is a problem with people not caring about proper writing ( this is also the case with my native language , Dutch ) ; I would say that " Academic papers are riddled with 'cuz'... " is a definite exaggeration .
Never have I encountered such an article .
I 've seen some really badly written articles while still being reviewed ( they did n't get accepted ) , and even those did not contain abbreviations such as 'cuz' .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>While I definitely agree there is a problem with people not caring about proper writing (this is also the case with my native language, Dutch); I would say that "Academic papers are riddled with 'cuz'..." is a definite exaggeration.
Never have I encountered such an article.
I've seen some really badly written articles while still being reviewed (they didn't get accepted), and even those did not contain abbreviations such as 'cuz'.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982462</id>
	<title>Re:Relevant</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265044980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>i hope u gave him/her an A, that is a great phrase</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>i hope u gave him/her an A , that is a great phrase</tokentext>
<sentencetext>i hope u gave him/her an A, that is a great phrase</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979830</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982800</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe its the school thats failing</title>
	<author>Draek</author>
	<datestamp>1265046360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah. Then we realized how idiotic is the concept of a language that's understood only by a single individual, and promptly discarded it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah .
Then we realized how idiotic is the concept of a language that 's understood only by a single individual , and promptly discarded it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah.
Then we realized how idiotic is the concept of a language that's understood only by a single individual, and promptly discarded it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980058</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30994064</id>
	<title>Re:And this is how we die</title>
	<author>Hognoxious</author>
	<datestamp>1265120160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No, Belgium.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No , Belgium .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, Belgium.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979872</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980266</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265035980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>People learning English as a foreign language get taught proper grammar and only learn the vernacular later.</p><p>People in England learn the street language and never get taught the grammar.</p><p>In online chat it's comical how often you can tell the 'Continental European speaking English' as opposed to the 'Native Brit or Irish person' purely from their superior grammar and spelling. That's particularly true for the younger age groups.</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Problem is that all kids are prepared to pass those stupid tests and outside them they know jack shit</p></div><p>Hence the current Facebook protests that an exam asked questions that they hadn't been specifically taught the answers to. A comment quoted on national news was "that's 6 months of attending lessons wasted."</p><p>This worries me. People shouldn't be taught the test answers, they should be taught the basics in the subject and how to learn. The whole UK education system appears to be increasingly broken, and that (even more than the Government putting us into record debt) threatens the viability of the nation for the next few decades.</p><p>(Add it to the national debt and we're basically fucked.)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>People learning English as a foreign language get taught proper grammar and only learn the vernacular later.People in England learn the street language and never get taught the grammar.In online chat it 's comical how often you can tell the 'Continental European speaking English ' as opposed to the 'Native Brit or Irish person ' purely from their superior grammar and spelling .
That 's particularly true for the younger age groups.Problem is that all kids are prepared to pass those stupid tests and outside them they know jack shitHence the current Facebook protests that an exam asked questions that they had n't been specifically taught the answers to .
A comment quoted on national news was " that 's 6 months of attending lessons wasted .
" This worries me .
People should n't be taught the test answers , they should be taught the basics in the subject and how to learn .
The whole UK education system appears to be increasingly broken , and that ( even more than the Government putting us into record debt ) threatens the viability of the nation for the next few decades .
( Add it to the national debt and we 're basically fucked .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>People learning English as a foreign language get taught proper grammar and only learn the vernacular later.People in England learn the street language and never get taught the grammar.In online chat it's comical how often you can tell the 'Continental European speaking English' as opposed to the 'Native Brit or Irish person' purely from their superior grammar and spelling.
That's particularly true for the younger age groups.Problem is that all kids are prepared to pass those stupid tests and outside them they know jack shitHence the current Facebook protests that an exam asked questions that they hadn't been specifically taught the answers to.
A comment quoted on national news was "that's 6 months of attending lessons wasted.
"This worries me.
People shouldn't be taught the test answers, they should be taught the basics in the subject and how to learn.
The whole UK education system appears to be increasingly broken, and that (even more than the Government putting us into record debt) threatens the viability of the nation for the next few decades.
(Add it to the national debt and we're basically fucked.
)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980048</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984368</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265052780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I feel that only the sobering reality we will face when we become dependent on this generation for their participation in society will shake us from our complacency and help us to insist upon higher standards for education. This effort should be maintained not only within the education system, but at home.</p></div><p>Good fucking luck with that.  Remember; they will run the place at that point and won't have any interest in admitting they are the problem.  The ignorant don't have the power of reason and introspection to question their beliefs.  That's why Fox "News" and the politics of confrontation and sound-bites have become so successful.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I feel that only the sobering reality we will face when we become dependent on this generation for their participation in society will shake us from our complacency and help us to insist upon higher standards for education .
This effort should be maintained not only within the education system , but at home.Good fucking luck with that .
Remember ; they will run the place at that point and wo n't have any interest in admitting they are the problem .
The ignorant do n't have the power of reason and introspection to question their beliefs .
That 's why Fox " News " and the politics of confrontation and sound-bites have become so successful .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I feel that only the sobering reality we will face when we become dependent on this generation for their participation in society will shake us from our complacency and help us to insist upon higher standards for education.
This effort should be maintained not only within the education system, but at home.Good fucking luck with that.
Remember; they will run the place at that point and won't have any interest in admitting they are the problem.
The ignorant don't have the power of reason and introspection to question their beliefs.
That's why Fox "News" and the politics of confrontation and sound-bites have become so successful.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981088</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30985206</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265056260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>People learning English as a foreign language get taught proper grammar and only learn the vernacular later.</p></div><p>Apparently you've never conversed or corresponded with Japanese or Korean people who have "learned English".</p><p>English "teachers" in Japan and Korea seldom have <i>any</i> teaching qualifications or credentials. The vast majority of them would fail most basic English language tests.</p><p>It's why you'll receive English language email from intelligent, highly-educated Japanese and Korean people which seems to have been composed for them by a Californian pre-teen with severe intellectual disabilities.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>People learning English as a foreign language get taught proper grammar and only learn the vernacular later.Apparently you 've never conversed or corresponded with Japanese or Korean people who have " learned English " .English " teachers " in Japan and Korea seldom have any teaching qualifications or credentials .
The vast majority of them would fail most basic English language tests.It 's why you 'll receive English language email from intelligent , highly-educated Japanese and Korean people which seems to have been composed for them by a Californian pre-teen with severe intellectual disabilities .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>People learning English as a foreign language get taught proper grammar and only learn the vernacular later.Apparently you've never conversed or corresponded with Japanese or Korean people who have "learned English".English "teachers" in Japan and Korea seldom have any teaching qualifications or credentials.
The vast majority of them would fail most basic English language tests.It's why you'll receive English language email from intelligent, highly-educated Japanese and Korean people which seems to have been composed for them by a Californian pre-teen with severe intellectual disabilities.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982692</id>
	<title>So hard to learn</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265045880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I know I have poor grammar. Unlike programming grammar can't be self taught. You need to write something, get quick feedback on what you did wrong, why it's wrong, and how to correct it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I know I have poor grammar .
Unlike programming grammar ca n't be self taught .
You need to write something , get quick feedback on what you did wrong , why it 's wrong , and how to correct it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I know I have poor grammar.
Unlike programming grammar can't be self taught.
You need to write something, get quick feedback on what you did wrong, why it's wrong, and how to correct it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982496</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265045160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>You know what is the most terrifying?<br>I'm a foreigner in England and found that I know grammar and spelling better than most of my English friends. We're talking about people who passed through basic education system here, and at least half of them also through higher studies.<br>If you ask them about grammar, apostrophe rules or spelling they will just say they never studied this. <b>Nobody ever though them this.</b> Then you wonder why all this is in total shambles.</p><p>Problem is that all kids are prepared to pass those stupid tests and outside them they know jack shit. There are exceptions, but general population is similar to Idiocracy one.</p></div><p>The bold words have been made so for irony.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>You know what is the most terrifying ? I 'm a foreigner in England and found that I know grammar and spelling better than most of my English friends .
We 're talking about people who passed through basic education system here , and at least half of them also through higher studies.If you ask them about grammar , apostrophe rules or spelling they will just say they never studied this .
Nobody ever though them this .
Then you wonder why all this is in total shambles.Problem is that all kids are prepared to pass those stupid tests and outside them they know jack shit .
There are exceptions , but general population is similar to Idiocracy one.The bold words have been made so for irony .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You know what is the most terrifying?I'm a foreigner in England and found that I know grammar and spelling better than most of my English friends.
We're talking about people who passed through basic education system here, and at least half of them also through higher studies.If you ask them about grammar, apostrophe rules or spelling they will just say they never studied this.
Nobody ever though them this.
Then you wonder why all this is in total shambles.Problem is that all kids are prepared to pass those stupid tests and outside them they know jack shit.
There are exceptions, but general population is similar to Idiocracy one.The bold words have been made so for irony.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980048</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981642</id>
	<title>Grammy's</title>
	<author>stewbacca</author>
	<datestamp>1265041860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>FTA:</p><p><div class="quote"><p>"If a student has problems with articles, prepositions, verb tenses, that's a problem."</p> </div><p>Uh, that was every rap/hiphop/R&amp;B guy on the Grammy Awards last night.</p><p>Also, instead of giving the papers back to the students to rewrite, how about simply not admitting them to the college?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>FTA : " If a student has problems with articles , prepositions , verb tenses , that 's a problem .
" Uh , that was every rap/hiphop/R&amp;B guy on the Grammy Awards last night.Also , instead of giving the papers back to the students to rewrite , how about simply not admitting them to the college ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>FTA:"If a student has problems with articles, prepositions, verb tenses, that's a problem.
" Uh, that was every rap/hiphop/R&amp;B guy on the Grammy Awards last night.Also, instead of giving the papers back to the students to rewrite, how about simply not admitting them to the college?
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980354</id>
	<title>I'm not surprised.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265036400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Simple grammar errors have become so common in everyday written conversation that many people have begun to accept them as normal.  Most people don't want to play grammar nazi and derail casual online conversations by calling down friends for their writing, so bad writing habits run unchecked.  The problem is that these people bring those same bad habits with them when writing anything in an even remotely serious situation, but don't realize that such errors makes them look like idiots.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Simple grammar errors have become so common in everyday written conversation that many people have begun to accept them as normal .
Most people do n't want to play grammar nazi and derail casual online conversations by calling down friends for their writing , so bad writing habits run unchecked .
The problem is that these people bring those same bad habits with them when writing anything in an even remotely serious situation , but do n't realize that such errors makes them look like idiots .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Simple grammar errors have become so common in everyday written conversation that many people have begun to accept them as normal.
Most people don't want to play grammar nazi and derail casual online conversations by calling down friends for their writing, so bad writing habits run unchecked.
The problem is that these people bring those same bad habits with them when writing anything in an even remotely serious situation, but don't realize that such errors makes them look like idiots.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980722</id>
	<title>Re:This does not surprise me.</title>
	<author>je ne sais quoi</author>
	<datestamp>1265038020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I suppose the real question is how well did the company do?  If they were a success, that might indicate that society is tolerant of poor grammar and copying mistakes.  I've noticed myself that the more I write, the more I pay attention to grammar.  For example, I know precisely what split infinitives and dangling participles are, or why you shouldn't end your sentence with a preposition (it's because there is a desire to make english more like what some dead romans wrote).  When I was in college I hadn't the foggiest idea what those things were.  Now that I mostly write for a living, I pay attention.  <br> <br>Maybe that's the secret: most people these days don't need to write well, so they don't.  Coupled to that is that I'm not sure there ever was a perfect grammar era.  I've read texts from the 19th century and their use of commas and long, flowery sentences is horrible to read sometimes (read The Last of The Mohicans, or Moby Dick, and look at how it is written, people nowadays would complain about their writing-style).  If professional writers are writing poorly (at least, by our standards) and those people are supposedly the professionals, I can't imagine that the general populace back then was speaking perfect prose either.  I don't think that "kids these days" are necessarily doing more poorly, it could be that our conceptions of the past are distorted and "grammar" for most people has always been atrocious.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I suppose the real question is how well did the company do ?
If they were a success , that might indicate that society is tolerant of poor grammar and copying mistakes .
I 've noticed myself that the more I write , the more I pay attention to grammar .
For example , I know precisely what split infinitives and dangling participles are , or why you should n't end your sentence with a preposition ( it 's because there is a desire to make english more like what some dead romans wrote ) .
When I was in college I had n't the foggiest idea what those things were .
Now that I mostly write for a living , I pay attention .
Maybe that 's the secret : most people these days do n't need to write well , so they do n't .
Coupled to that is that I 'm not sure there ever was a perfect grammar era .
I 've read texts from the 19th century and their use of commas and long , flowery sentences is horrible to read sometimes ( read The Last of The Mohicans , or Moby Dick , and look at how it is written , people nowadays would complain about their writing-style ) .
If professional writers are writing poorly ( at least , by our standards ) and those people are supposedly the professionals , I ca n't imagine that the general populace back then was speaking perfect prose either .
I do n't think that " kids these days " are necessarily doing more poorly , it could be that our conceptions of the past are distorted and " grammar " for most people has always been atrocious .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I suppose the real question is how well did the company do?
If they were a success, that might indicate that society is tolerant of poor grammar and copying mistakes.
I've noticed myself that the more I write, the more I pay attention to grammar.
For example, I know precisely what split infinitives and dangling participles are, or why you shouldn't end your sentence with a preposition (it's because there is a desire to make english more like what some dead romans wrote).
When I was in college I hadn't the foggiest idea what those things were.
Now that I mostly write for a living, I pay attention.
Maybe that's the secret: most people these days don't need to write well, so they don't.
Coupled to that is that I'm not sure there ever was a perfect grammar era.
I've read texts from the 19th century and their use of commas and long, flowery sentences is horrible to read sometimes (read The Last of The Mohicans, or Moby Dick, and look at how it is written, people nowadays would complain about their writing-style).
If professional writers are writing poorly (at least, by our standards) and those people are supposedly the professionals, I can't imagine that the general populace back then was speaking perfect prose either.
I don't think that "kids these days" are necessarily doing more poorly, it could be that our conceptions of the past are distorted and "grammar" for most people has always been atrocious.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980108</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30989004</id>
	<title>Cheesy</title>
	<author>scdeimos</author>
	<datestamp>1265027100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think it's funny that an article talking about commas being "sort of like parmesan cheese that you sprinkle on your words" uses too many commas itself.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think it 's funny that an article talking about commas being " sort of like parmesan cheese that you sprinkle on your words " uses too many commas itself .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think it's funny that an article talking about commas being "sort of like parmesan cheese that you sprinkle on your words" uses too many commas itself.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984350</id>
	<title>Re:As a father...</title>
	<author>teridon</author>
	<datestamp>1265052660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Recently, we allowed our teenager to get a Facebook account, with the proviso that we remain her friends and that we have access to the account. I reply to every post she makes abusively correcting her piss-poor grammar.</i></p><p>She probably just hides your responses (she never sees them)!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Recently , we allowed our teenager to get a Facebook account , with the proviso that we remain her friends and that we have access to the account .
I reply to every post she makes abusively correcting her piss-poor grammar.She probably just hides your responses ( she never sees them ) !
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Recently, we allowed our teenager to get a Facebook account, with the proviso that we remain her friends and that we have access to the account.
I reply to every post she makes abusively correcting her piss-poor grammar.She probably just hides your responses (she never sees them)!
:)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980568</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983024</id>
	<title>Social Linguistics has taught me much...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265047260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>In reading the article and some of the comments posted here, I can't help but think back to my social linguistics class where we talked about issues similar to these. The major question that kept cropping up in the class was the question of "Who owns the language?" This was placed in the context of second language learners vs native speakers, but I definitely see parallels here. In the context of the class, the problem was that the number of ESL learners was fast increasing, with many seeing the number fast approaching the number of native speakers. The problem is that there are certain aspects in the English language which don't make much sense and where the exception is the rule. As a result in many ESL communities they use "improper" English which most native speakers looked down upon. If the exception is usually the rule, then why not simply change the way the language is used usually and make the "improper" English the correct teaching? This is a hot button topic in many primary schools around the world where English is usually a child's second language. In some cases many English teachers have switched to accepting the prior-"Improper" form as the the new accepted way of saying something. <br>
<br>
Returning to the point, if shorthand is becoming so prevalent in the upcoming youth, whats not to say that shouldn't be the way the language should be used? The core reason most people fight "improper" popular uses of a language is simply because a change in the language would force the native speakers to re-learn the language. Basically what I'm seeing in the article and the comments is people fighting a possible change in their language.</htmltext>
<tokenext>In reading the article and some of the comments posted here , I ca n't help but think back to my social linguistics class where we talked about issues similar to these .
The major question that kept cropping up in the class was the question of " Who owns the language ?
" This was placed in the context of second language learners vs native speakers , but I definitely see parallels here .
In the context of the class , the problem was that the number of ESL learners was fast increasing , with many seeing the number fast approaching the number of native speakers .
The problem is that there are certain aspects in the English language which do n't make much sense and where the exception is the rule .
As a result in many ESL communities they use " improper " English which most native speakers looked down upon .
If the exception is usually the rule , then why not simply change the way the language is used usually and make the " improper " English the correct teaching ?
This is a hot button topic in many primary schools around the world where English is usually a child 's second language .
In some cases many English teachers have switched to accepting the prior- " Improper " form as the the new accepted way of saying something .
Returning to the point , if shorthand is becoming so prevalent in the upcoming youth , whats not to say that should n't be the way the language should be used ?
The core reason most people fight " improper " popular uses of a language is simply because a change in the language would force the native speakers to re-learn the language .
Basically what I 'm seeing in the article and the comments is people fighting a possible change in their language .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In reading the article and some of the comments posted here, I can't help but think back to my social linguistics class where we talked about issues similar to these.
The major question that kept cropping up in the class was the question of "Who owns the language?
" This was placed in the context of second language learners vs native speakers, but I definitely see parallels here.
In the context of the class, the problem was that the number of ESL learners was fast increasing, with many seeing the number fast approaching the number of native speakers.
The problem is that there are certain aspects in the English language which don't make much sense and where the exception is the rule.
As a result in many ESL communities they use "improper" English which most native speakers looked down upon.
If the exception is usually the rule, then why not simply change the way the language is used usually and make the "improper" English the correct teaching?
This is a hot button topic in many primary schools around the world where English is usually a child's second language.
In some cases many English teachers have switched to accepting the prior-"Improper" form as the the new accepted way of saying something.
Returning to the point, if shorthand is becoming so prevalent in the upcoming youth, whats not to say that shouldn't be the way the language should be used?
The core reason most people fight "improper" popular uses of a language is simply because a change in the language would force the native speakers to re-learn the language.
Basically what I'm seeing in the article and the comments is people fighting a possible change in their language.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983494</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265049060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I would agree with you except a lot of random English grammar rules require memorization.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I would agree with you except a lot of random English grammar rules require memorization .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would agree with you except a lot of random English grammar rules require memorization.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980042</id>
	<title>Re:I laughed</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265034900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>We'd typically call it remedial, which may be even less obvious to the illiterate than foundational (excepting the fact that they'd probably been in "remedial<nobr> <wbr></nobr>..." their entire lives).  What shocked me most about higher education here is that people who even attempt at some sport can get full scholarship to private colleges, regardless of standardized test scores.  In my freshman year in college I met football players who'd been gifted straight "A's" in highschool, just because they were on the team.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>We 'd typically call it remedial , which may be even less obvious to the illiterate than foundational ( excepting the fact that they 'd probably been in " remedial ... " their entire lives ) .
What shocked me most about higher education here is that people who even attempt at some sport can get full scholarship to private colleges , regardless of standardized test scores .
In my freshman year in college I met football players who 'd been gifted straight " A 's " in highschool , just because they were on the team .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>We'd typically call it remedial, which may be even less obvious to the illiterate than foundational (excepting the fact that they'd probably been in "remedial ..." their entire lives).
What shocked me most about higher education here is that people who even attempt at some sport can get full scholarship to private colleges, regardless of standardized test scores.
In my freshman year in college I met football players who'd been gifted straight "A's" in highschool, just because they were on the team.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979878</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979878</id>
	<title>I laughed</title>
	<author>DavidR1991</author>
	<datestamp>1265034180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"That 10 per cent must take so-called "foundational" writing courses first."</p><p>Considering they're taking on students who can't write English properly, it's kind of ironic they've picked the most obscure/rare adjective form of 'foundation' for the title of the course.(Unless of course if foundational is often used on the other side of the pond, in which case I withdraw my laughter...)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" That 10 per cent must take so-called " foundational " writing courses first .
" Considering they 're taking on students who ca n't write English properly , it 's kind of ironic they 've picked the most obscure/rare adjective form of 'foundation ' for the title of the course .
( Unless of course if foundational is often used on the other side of the pond , in which case I withdraw my laughter... )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"That 10 per cent must take so-called "foundational" writing courses first.
"Considering they're taking on students who can't write English properly, it's kind of ironic they've picked the most obscure/rare adjective form of 'foundation' for the title of the course.
(Unless of course if foundational is often used on the other side of the pond, in which case I withdraw my laughter...)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981486</id>
	<title>Because of?</title>
	<author>webdog314</author>
	<datestamp>1265041200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>How about "due to". I guess people write like they speak.</htmltext>
<tokenext>How about " due to " .
I guess people write like they speak .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How about "due to".
I guess people write like they speak.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980116</id>
	<title>Re:hai</title>
	<author>Stradenko</author>
	<datestamp>1265035260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You betcha.<br><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_animals\_with\_fraudulent\_diplomas" title="wikipedia.org">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_animals\_with\_fraudulent\_diplomas</a> [wikipedia.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You betcha.http : //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List \ _of \ _animals \ _with \ _fraudulent \ _diplomas [ wikipedia.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You betcha.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_animals\_with\_fraudulent\_diplomas [wikipedia.org]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979990</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981584</id>
	<title>Re:This does not surprise me.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265041620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My response to that would be to let all the errors go.  And look for another job, because the company will be out of business soon.</p><p>Even with all that's being talked about here, there are plenty of companies out there know feel insulting prospective customers' intelligence is bad for business....</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My response to that would be to let all the errors go .
And look for another job , because the company will be out of business soon.Even with all that 's being talked about here , there are plenty of companies out there know feel insulting prospective customers ' intelligence is bad for business... .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My response to that would be to let all the errors go.
And look for another job, because the company will be out of business soon.Even with all that's being talked about here, there are plenty of companies out there know feel insulting prospective customers' intelligence is bad for business....</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980108</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980258</id>
	<title>Re:Universities can't keep up</title>
	<author>Ogive17</author>
	<datestamp>1265035920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If the universities were to adapt to the 'txting language', by the time I hit 70 years old there would be 3 or 4 iterations of English being used in the US alone.<br>
<br>
You can call me old-fashioned (I'm 30) but 'cuz' is lazy.  Of course I know what it means and I don't care if people use it informally...   but when it comes to a school paper or a business letter it just isn't acceptable.  The problem is the kids using don't understand the difference between slang and normal English.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If the universities were to adapt to the 'txting language ' , by the time I hit 70 years old there would be 3 or 4 iterations of English being used in the US alone .
You can call me old-fashioned ( I 'm 30 ) but 'cuz ' is lazy .
Of course I know what it means and I do n't care if people use it informally... but when it comes to a school paper or a business letter it just is n't acceptable .
The problem is the kids using do n't understand the difference between slang and normal English .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the universities were to adapt to the 'txting language', by the time I hit 70 years old there would be 3 or 4 iterations of English being used in the US alone.
You can call me old-fashioned (I'm 30) but 'cuz' is lazy.
Of course I know what it means and I don't care if people use it informally...   but when it comes to a school paper or a business letter it just isn't acceptable.
The problem is the kids using don't understand the difference between slang and normal English.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979892</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984112</id>
	<title>Re:Phonetics &amp; putting the blame in the right</title>
	<author>DarkMage0707077</author>
	<datestamp>1265051520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>The problem I see here is that as the language degrades, so will corporations' abilities to hire people with such skills and eventually it will end up in upper management.</p></div><p>
In that case, when all of upper management thinks it's the norm, they would probably seek to hire those who use it throughout the organization, right? And so, in an effort to be hired, would students not *demand* to be taught English in this way, forcing even English teachers to eventually yield or find new careers?<br>
<br>
This would then seed the entire workforce with those who speak/write this way. And when it's become prevelant throughout the organization at all levels, would it not *become* the norm? And, by extension from organization to country/world, would it not also become the norm if the large majority of writers considers it so?<br>
<br>
We may simply be seing the next phase of phonetic/literary evolution in progress, as has occured through out history as long as humanity has possessed a written/spoken language. After all, I'm sure people today certainly would not consider the very small people who know and can speak/write in original Old English from the dark ages to be "the norm" with current phrasing. Heck, even a realatively more recent transition in the late Colonial period of America saw us give birth to a whole new "English Language" that is seperate from proper Queen's English to the point that we need lessons to be able to bridge the gap and prevent misunderstandings in mixed crowds.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The problem I see here is that as the language degrades , so will corporations ' abilities to hire people with such skills and eventually it will end up in upper management .
In that case , when all of upper management thinks it 's the norm , they would probably seek to hire those who use it throughout the organization , right ?
And so , in an effort to be hired , would students not * demand * to be taught English in this way , forcing even English teachers to eventually yield or find new careers ?
This would then seed the entire workforce with those who speak/write this way .
And when it 's become prevelant throughout the organization at all levels , would it not * become * the norm ?
And , by extension from organization to country/world , would it not also become the norm if the large majority of writers considers it so ?
We may simply be seing the next phase of phonetic/literary evolution in progress , as has occured through out history as long as humanity has possessed a written/spoken language .
After all , I 'm sure people today certainly would not consider the very small people who know and can speak/write in original Old English from the dark ages to be " the norm " with current phrasing .
Heck , even a realatively more recent transition in the late Colonial period of America saw us give birth to a whole new " English Language " that is seperate from proper Queen 's English to the point that we need lessons to be able to bridge the gap and prevent misunderstandings in mixed crowds .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The problem I see here is that as the language degrades, so will corporations' abilities to hire people with such skills and eventually it will end up in upper management.
In that case, when all of upper management thinks it's the norm, they would probably seek to hire those who use it throughout the organization, right?
And so, in an effort to be hired, would students not *demand* to be taught English in this way, forcing even English teachers to eventually yield or find new careers?
This would then seed the entire workforce with those who speak/write this way.
And when it's become prevelant throughout the organization at all levels, would it not *become* the norm?
And, by extension from organization to country/world, would it not also become the norm if the large majority of writers considers it so?
We may simply be seing the next phase of phonetic/literary evolution in progress, as has occured through out history as long as humanity has possessed a written/spoken language.
After all, I'm sure people today certainly would not consider the very small people who know and can speak/write in original Old English from the dark ages to be "the norm" with current phrasing.
Heck, even a realatively more recent transition in the late Colonial period of America saw us give birth to a whole new "English Language" that is seperate from proper Queen's English to the point that we need lessons to be able to bridge the gap and prevent misunderstandings in mixed crowds.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981282</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982182</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe its the school thats failing</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265044020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Did anyone every stop to consider that language is evolving and that it is the traditional grammar which is failing to keep up with modern society?</i></p><p>Maybe <b>it's</b> the school <b>that's</b> failing? NO!</p><p>Did anyone <b>ever</b> stop to consider that language is evolving and that it is the traditional grammar which is failing to keep up with modern society? No need to; throwing out precision and replacing it with ambiguity is not evolution. If you don't know how to use an apostrophe, and when and when not to, and don't know the difference between "ever" and "every", you are not literate. Period.</p><p>Rather than bringing illiteracy from the ghetto to acedemia, you should be bring literacy to the ghetto instead. People who read a lot of books seldom make the ignorant mistakes you made in your comment, and make no mistake about it, it is ignorance, and only ignorance, pure and simple.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Did anyone every stop to consider that language is evolving and that it is the traditional grammar which is failing to keep up with modern society ? Maybe it 's the school that 's failing ?
NO ! Did anyone ever stop to consider that language is evolving and that it is the traditional grammar which is failing to keep up with modern society ?
No need to ; throwing out precision and replacing it with ambiguity is not evolution .
If you do n't know how to use an apostrophe , and when and when not to , and do n't know the difference between " ever " and " every " , you are not literate .
Period.Rather than bringing illiteracy from the ghetto to acedemia , you should be bring literacy to the ghetto instead .
People who read a lot of books seldom make the ignorant mistakes you made in your comment , and make no mistake about it , it is ignorance , and only ignorance , pure and simple .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Did anyone every stop to consider that language is evolving and that it is the traditional grammar which is failing to keep up with modern society?Maybe it's the school that's failing?
NO!Did anyone ever stop to consider that language is evolving and that it is the traditional grammar which is failing to keep up with modern society?
No need to; throwing out precision and replacing it with ambiguity is not evolution.
If you don't know how to use an apostrophe, and when and when not to, and don't know the difference between "ever" and "every", you are not literate.
Period.Rather than bringing illiteracy from the ghetto to acedemia, you should be bring literacy to the ghetto instead.
People who read a lot of books seldom make the ignorant mistakes you made in your comment, and make no mistake about it, it is ignorance, and only ignorance, pure and simple.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980058</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980320</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe its the school thats failing</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265036280000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Did anyone every stop to consider that language is evolving and that it is the traditional grammar which is failing to keep up with modern society?</p></div></blockquote><p> Yes. Did you ever stop to consider that "thats" is not a word?</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Did anyone every stop to consider that language is evolving and that it is the traditional grammar which is failing to keep up with modern society ?
Yes. Did you ever stop to consider that " thats " is not a word ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Did anyone every stop to consider that language is evolving and that it is the traditional grammar which is failing to keep up with modern society?
Yes. Did you ever stop to consider that "thats" is not a word?
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980058</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980576</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>Jason Levine</author>
	<datestamp>1265037300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My wife worked in a private school for awhile and came upon this attitude.  The parents felt that they "owned" the teachers because they were paying for the school.  Since they were paying, the kids deserved A's.  One father once came up to argue with my wife about the grade his daughter received on her paper.  He insisted that he was an English teacher and thus knows that she should get a better grade.  My wife asked if he had read the paper.  When he said he hadn't read it, she showed it to him and he sheepishly agreed that the low grade was deserved.  What possessed him to go off arguing grades with the teacher without looking at the paper itself, I don't know.</p><p>I had hoped that this behavior was confined to private schools, but your wife's experience indicates that exists in both private and public schools.  That's really sad.  If my son does poorly in a subject, I want the teacher to give him a low grade.  If he gets A's just for showing up, what's the incentive to actually learn the material?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My wife worked in a private school for awhile and came upon this attitude .
The parents felt that they " owned " the teachers because they were paying for the school .
Since they were paying , the kids deserved A 's .
One father once came up to argue with my wife about the grade his daughter received on her paper .
He insisted that he was an English teacher and thus knows that she should get a better grade .
My wife asked if he had read the paper .
When he said he had n't read it , she showed it to him and he sheepishly agreed that the low grade was deserved .
What possessed him to go off arguing grades with the teacher without looking at the paper itself , I do n't know.I had hoped that this behavior was confined to private schools , but your wife 's experience indicates that exists in both private and public schools .
That 's really sad .
If my son does poorly in a subject , I want the teacher to give him a low grade .
If he gets A 's just for showing up , what 's the incentive to actually learn the material ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My wife worked in a private school for awhile and came upon this attitude.
The parents felt that they "owned" the teachers because they were paying for the school.
Since they were paying, the kids deserved A's.
One father once came up to argue with my wife about the grade his daughter received on her paper.
He insisted that he was an English teacher and thus knows that she should get a better grade.
My wife asked if he had read the paper.
When he said he hadn't read it, she showed it to him and he sheepishly agreed that the low grade was deserved.
What possessed him to go off arguing grades with the teacher without looking at the paper itself, I don't know.I had hoped that this behavior was confined to private schools, but your wife's experience indicates that exists in both private and public schools.
That's really sad.
If my son does poorly in a subject, I want the teacher to give him a low grade.
If he gets A's just for showing up, what's the incentive to actually learn the material?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979950</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980772</id>
	<title>Re:This does not surprise me.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265038200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I previously worked for about 8 years for a medium-sized marketing and design agency, as the lead web developer. On almost every project that passed across my desk, I seemed to be the only one spotting spelling errors, grammatical mistakes and punctuation problems before copy went to the web and to print. This was in a company of 30-ish young, university educated professionals in London.</p></div><p>Let me fix that for you.</p><p>Previous to my current employment I worked as a lead web developer.  My employer was a medium sized marketing and design agency located in London. The agency consisted of university educated professionals, most of whom were around the age of thirty.  I held the position for approximately eight years.  On nearly every project passing my desk I was the only one spotting errors before the copy went to print and to the web.  The errors consisted of spelling mistakes, grammatical misconstructions and problems with punctuation.</p><p>(I'm well aware that I have now opened my revision up for further critique.)</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I previously worked for about 8 years for a medium-sized marketing and design agency , as the lead web developer .
On almost every project that passed across my desk , I seemed to be the only one spotting spelling errors , grammatical mistakes and punctuation problems before copy went to the web and to print .
This was in a company of 30-ish young , university educated professionals in London.Let me fix that for you.Previous to my current employment I worked as a lead web developer .
My employer was a medium sized marketing and design agency located in London .
The agency consisted of university educated professionals , most of whom were around the age of thirty .
I held the position for approximately eight years .
On nearly every project passing my desk I was the only one spotting errors before the copy went to print and to the web .
The errors consisted of spelling mistakes , grammatical misconstructions and problems with punctuation .
( I 'm well aware that I have now opened my revision up for further critique .
)</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I previously worked for about 8 years for a medium-sized marketing and design agency, as the lead web developer.
On almost every project that passed across my desk, I seemed to be the only one spotting spelling errors, grammatical mistakes and punctuation problems before copy went to the web and to print.
This was in a company of 30-ish young, university educated professionals in London.Let me fix that for you.Previous to my current employment I worked as a lead web developer.
My employer was a medium sized marketing and design agency located in London.
The agency consisted of university educated professionals, most of whom were around the age of thirty.
I held the position for approximately eight years.
On nearly every project passing my desk I was the only one spotting errors before the copy went to print and to the web.
The errors consisted of spelling mistakes, grammatical misconstructions and problems with punctuation.
(I'm well aware that I have now opened my revision up for further critique.
)
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980108</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980962</id>
	<title>Re:term paper on Shakespeare</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265039160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Which, considering the ages of the characters, would probably be an appropriate modernization of the text.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Which , considering the ages of the characters , would probably be an appropriate modernization of the text .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Which, considering the ages of the characters, would probably be an appropriate modernization of the text.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979924</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980910</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>Gordonjcp</author>
	<datestamp>1265038860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>I'm a foreigner in England and found that I know grammar and spelling better than most of my English friends. We're talking about people who passed through basic education system here, and at least half of them also through higher studies.</i> </p><p>They're not the worst, either.  A few years ago I used to help out at an English class for exchange students - primarily for people who spoke English as a second language, but also for people who needed help with written English.  Many (if not most) of the students from the US could barely read and write at 3rd Year High School level (age 13-14, or so).  They struggled with work from the Standard Grade curriculum.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm a foreigner in England and found that I know grammar and spelling better than most of my English friends .
We 're talking about people who passed through basic education system here , and at least half of them also through higher studies .
They 're not the worst , either .
A few years ago I used to help out at an English class for exchange students - primarily for people who spoke English as a second language , but also for people who needed help with written English .
Many ( if not most ) of the students from the US could barely read and write at 3rd Year High School level ( age 13-14 , or so ) .
They struggled with work from the Standard Grade curriculum .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm a foreigner in England and found that I know grammar and spelling better than most of my English friends.
We're talking about people who passed through basic education system here, and at least half of them also through higher studies.
They're not the worst, either.
A few years ago I used to help out at an English class for exchange students - primarily for people who spoke English as a second language, but also for people who needed help with written English.
Many (if not most) of the students from the US could barely read and write at 3rd Year High School level (age 13-14, or so).
They struggled with work from the Standard Grade curriculum.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980048</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30992022</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>dacut</author>
	<datestamp>1265050980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>People learning English as a foreign language get taught proper grammar and only learn the vernacular later.  People in England learn the street language and never get taught the grammar.</p></div><p>I had a fairly standard U.S. education (read: not the horror stories you read about in D.C., but not spectacular, either), which included English grammar in elementary and middle school.  It was fairly dry and little of it stuck -- normal "street" grammar is too easy to slide back into -- until I started taking German and (later) Japanese classes.  Learning a foreign language and its grammar rules opened my eyes to English grammar.  That's when it suddenly became interesting.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>People learning English as a foreign language get taught proper grammar and only learn the vernacular later .
People in England learn the street language and never get taught the grammar.I had a fairly standard U.S. education ( read : not the horror stories you read about in D.C. , but not spectacular , either ) , which included English grammar in elementary and middle school .
It was fairly dry and little of it stuck -- normal " street " grammar is too easy to slide back into -- until I started taking German and ( later ) Japanese classes .
Learning a foreign language and its grammar rules opened my eyes to English grammar .
That 's when it suddenly became interesting .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>People learning English as a foreign language get taught proper grammar and only learn the vernacular later.
People in England learn the street language and never get taught the grammar.I had a fairly standard U.S. education (read: not the horror stories you read about in D.C., but not spectacular, either), which included English grammar in elementary and middle school.
It was fairly dry and little of it stuck -- normal "street" grammar is too easy to slide back into -- until I started taking German and (later) Japanese classes.
Learning a foreign language and its grammar rules opened my eyes to English grammar.
That's when it suddenly became interesting.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981126</id>
	<title>No one gets left behind</title>
	<author>KiwiCanuck</author>
	<datestamp>1265039820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>But everyone else gets held up.</htmltext>
<tokenext>But everyone else gets held up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>But everyone else gets held up.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980346</id>
	<title>Read more</title>
	<author>Dersaidin</author>
	<datestamp>1265036340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Appreciation of grammar, spelling, context, and connotation comes from reading books.<p>
People read less with movies, games, youtube, etc. available to fill their time.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Appreciation of grammar , spelling , context , and connotation comes from reading books .
People read less with movies , games , youtube , etc .
available to fill their time .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Appreciation of grammar, spelling, context, and connotation comes from reading books.
People read less with movies, games, youtube, etc.
available to fill their time.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981610</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>Carewolf</author>
	<datestamp>1265041680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>In online chat it's comical how often you can tell the 'Continental European speaking English' as opposed to the 'Native Brit or Irish person' purely from their superior grammar and spelling. That's particularly true for the younger age groups.</p></div></blockquote><p>Are you being sarcastic? Especially followed by:</p><blockquote><div><blockquote><div><p>Problem is that all kids are prepared to pass those stupid tests and outside them they know jack shit</p></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><p>I think I know what he is saying, but that is not an example of superiour grammar.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>In online chat it 's comical how often you can tell the 'Continental European speaking English ' as opposed to the 'Native Brit or Irish person ' purely from their superior grammar and spelling .
That 's particularly true for the younger age groups.Are you being sarcastic ?
Especially followed by : Problem is that all kids are prepared to pass those stupid tests and outside them they know jack shitI think I know what he is saying , but that is not an example of superiour grammar .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In online chat it's comical how often you can tell the 'Continental European speaking English' as opposed to the 'Native Brit or Irish person' purely from their superior grammar and spelling.
That's particularly true for the younger age groups.Are you being sarcastic?
Especially followed by:Problem is that all kids are prepared to pass those stupid tests and outside them they know jack shitI think I know what he is saying, but that is not an example of superiour grammar.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980266</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981268</id>
	<title>Good.</title>
	<author>VenomPhallus</author>
	<datestamp>1265040360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I am horrified by the number of people who use its/it's, their/there etc interchangeably. I'm a lawyer, and such mispellings are common even in trainee solicitors these days. How on earth do you make it through 13 years of school, 3 years of undergraduate and 2 years of post-graduate education and still not know these basic rules?</p><p>It looks bad enough on a greengrocer's sign, but when these errors are in a letter from someone you're paying &pound;109/hr it looks bloody awful IMO.</p><p>I'm not fanatical about it in general, but when words are your tool you should really have a grasp of the elementary rules governing them.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I am horrified by the number of people who use its/it 's , their/there etc interchangeably .
I 'm a lawyer , and such mispellings are common even in trainee solicitors these days .
How on earth do you make it through 13 years of school , 3 years of undergraduate and 2 years of post-graduate education and still not know these basic rules ? It looks bad enough on a greengrocer 's sign , but when these errors are in a letter from someone you 're paying   109/hr it looks bloody awful IMO.I 'm not fanatical about it in general , but when words are your tool you should really have a grasp of the elementary rules governing them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I am horrified by the number of people who use its/it's, their/there etc interchangeably.
I'm a lawyer, and such mispellings are common even in trainee solicitors these days.
How on earth do you make it through 13 years of school, 3 years of undergraduate and 2 years of post-graduate education and still not know these basic rules?It looks bad enough on a greengrocer's sign, but when these errors are in a letter from someone you're paying £109/hr it looks bloody awful IMO.I'm not fanatical about it in general, but when words are your tool you should really have a grasp of the elementary rules governing them.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980076</id>
	<title>Re:hai</title>
	<author>cabjf</author>
	<datestamp>1265035140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>No, you can haz job flipping cheeseburgerz.</htmltext>
<tokenext>No , you can haz job flipping cheeseburgerz .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, you can haz job flipping cheeseburgerz.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979990</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980370</id>
	<title>Re:Just out of curiousity...</title>
	<author>crazycheetah</author>
	<datestamp>1265036400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>May an <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interjection" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">Interjection?</a> [wikipedia.org]</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>May an Interjection ?
[ wikipedia.org ]</tokentext>
<sentencetext>May an Interjection?
[wikipedia.org]</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979898</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981684</id>
	<title>Re:This does not surprise me.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265041980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'd hate to see how bad the original copy was if you were the one correcting it.  You've got four too many commas just in those 6 sentences.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'd hate to see how bad the original copy was if you were the one correcting it .
You 've got four too many commas just in those 6 sentences .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'd hate to see how bad the original copy was if you were the one correcting it.
You've got four too many commas just in those 6 sentences.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980108</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30982140</id>
	<title>Shorter example</title>
	<author>SmallFurryCreature</author>
	<datestamp>1265043780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I helped my uncle Jack of a horse.
</p><p>Strider- helped his uncle jack of a horse.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I helped my uncle Jack of a horse .
Strider- helped his uncle jack of a horse .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I helped my uncle Jack of a horse.
Strider- helped his uncle jack of a horse.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979936</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981226</id>
	<title>Re:And this is how we die</title>
	<author>pnewhook</author>
	<datestamp>1265040180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I took this exam while there and there are several good reasons for the marks to be low
</p><p>1 - University of Waterloo has one of the best Engineering and Math programs in North America.  As such it attracts a lot of foreign students that do not have English as their first language.  My Computer Engineering class consisted of approximately 80\% first generation or foreign born students. (PS: this is a fact, not intended as a racial slight or a bad thing at all)
</p><p>2 - The ELPE exam is (when I took it anyway) the first morning after frosh weekend.  I was still half plastered when I wrote it and I'm sure many others were too.  English skills are not the best at 8am and hung over.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I took this exam while there and there are several good reasons for the marks to be low 1 - University of Waterloo has one of the best Engineering and Math programs in North America .
As such it attracts a lot of foreign students that do not have English as their first language .
My Computer Engineering class consisted of approximately 80 \ % first generation or foreign born students .
( PS : this is a fact , not intended as a racial slight or a bad thing at all ) 2 - The ELPE exam is ( when I took it anyway ) the first morning after frosh weekend .
I was still half plastered when I wrote it and I 'm sure many others were too .
English skills are not the best at 8am and hung over .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I took this exam while there and there are several good reasons for the marks to be low
1 - University of Waterloo has one of the best Engineering and Math programs in North America.
As such it attracts a lot of foreign students that do not have English as their first language.
My Computer Engineering class consisted of approximately 80\% first generation or foreign born students.
(PS: this is a fact, not intended as a racial slight or a bad thing at all)
2 - The ELPE exam is (when I took it anyway) the first morning after frosh weekend.
I was still half plastered when I wrote it and I'm sure many others were too.
English skills are not the best at 8am and hung over.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979882</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981840</id>
	<title>Re:Maybe its the school thats failing</title>
	<author>Jayws</author>
	<datestamp>1265042520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I would agree that language has changed in informal applications.  However, it's hard enough to communicate through written form.  Having a traditional reference for grammar helps to reduce the complexity because it encourages uniformity.  Think of Bluetooth versus Zigbee.  Unlike Bluetooth, Zigbee allows different proprietary implementations which have an end result of one Zigbee device possibly not being able to communicate with another.  This makes Zigbee unthinkable for use in broad applications.  It's the same issue here.  Learning to write effectively takes time, patience, and practice.  I'm not the best at written language but at least I make an effort.  It's like these people don't give a damn.  I don't have the time of day for their crap; exceptionally poor writing speaks volumes about your intelligence whether you think it should or not.  The trash that these people produce should be exclusively limited to text messages, twitter, or other informal means of communication.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I would agree that language has changed in informal applications .
However , it 's hard enough to communicate through written form .
Having a traditional reference for grammar helps to reduce the complexity because it encourages uniformity .
Think of Bluetooth versus Zigbee .
Unlike Bluetooth , Zigbee allows different proprietary implementations which have an end result of one Zigbee device possibly not being able to communicate with another .
This makes Zigbee unthinkable for use in broad applications .
It 's the same issue here .
Learning to write effectively takes time , patience , and practice .
I 'm not the best at written language but at least I make an effort .
It 's like these people do n't give a damn .
I do n't have the time of day for their crap ; exceptionally poor writing speaks volumes about your intelligence whether you think it should or not .
The trash that these people produce should be exclusively limited to text messages , twitter , or other informal means of communication .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would agree that language has changed in informal applications.
However, it's hard enough to communicate through written form.
Having a traditional reference for grammar helps to reduce the complexity because it encourages uniformity.
Think of Bluetooth versus Zigbee.
Unlike Bluetooth, Zigbee allows different proprietary implementations which have an end result of one Zigbee device possibly not being able to communicate with another.
This makes Zigbee unthinkable for use in broad applications.
It's the same issue here.
Learning to write effectively takes time, patience, and practice.
I'm not the best at written language but at least I make an effort.
It's like these people don't give a damn.
I don't have the time of day for their crap; exceptionally poor writing speaks volumes about your intelligence whether you think it should or not.
The trash that these people produce should be exclusively limited to text messages, twitter, or other informal means of communication.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980058</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981324</id>
	<title>Re:And this is how we die</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265040540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm not sure what the situation's like in the USA, but one of the reasons my mother stopped teaching was that it was increasingly hard to get a job as an experienced teacher.  Someone with the amount of experience she had cost about 50\% more than a newly qualified teacher and school budgets were restricted to the degree that they were basically forced to hire newly qualified teachers, rather than experienced ones.  They put them on fixed-term contracts, because their price would go up over time, and replace them when they became too expensive.  </p><p>
The other reason was that she realised that she was spending more than half of her time doing things other than teaching.  Schools can't afford to hire full-time admin staff, so the teachers spend more time doing irrelevant paperwork than they do putting education into the heads of children.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm not sure what the situation 's like in the USA , but one of the reasons my mother stopped teaching was that it was increasingly hard to get a job as an experienced teacher .
Someone with the amount of experience she had cost about 50 \ % more than a newly qualified teacher and school budgets were restricted to the degree that they were basically forced to hire newly qualified teachers , rather than experienced ones .
They put them on fixed-term contracts , because their price would go up over time , and replace them when they became too expensive .
The other reason was that she realised that she was spending more than half of her time doing things other than teaching .
Schools ca n't afford to hire full-time admin staff , so the teachers spend more time doing irrelevant paperwork than they do putting education into the heads of children .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm not sure what the situation's like in the USA, but one of the reasons my mother stopped teaching was that it was increasingly hard to get a job as an experienced teacher.
Someone with the amount of experience she had cost about 50\% more than a newly qualified teacher and school budgets were restricted to the degree that they were basically forced to hire newly qualified teachers, rather than experienced ones.
They put them on fixed-term contracts, because their price would go up over time, and replace them when they became too expensive.
The other reason was that she realised that she was spending more than half of her time doing things other than teaching.
Schools can't afford to hire full-time admin staff, so the teachers spend more time doing irrelevant paperwork than they do putting education into the heads of children.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980148</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980034</id>
	<title>Re:Universities can't keep up</title>
	<author>widelight</author>
	<datestamp>1265034900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've got a degree in Anthropology and the linguists in the department will agree with you on this point.  The official Anthropological stance is that language is just language, there is no "right" or "wrong."  If it communicates, then it does its job.</p><p>Having said that, I'm not sure I agree with the linguists.  There is something to be said for formal writing;  baseline communication.  What you do in your spare time (on facespace or in text messages) is your own business.  But what you do on academic time or professional time is another matter.  There are plenty of people out there that can speak or write in multiple dialects, and there's no reason to think that the children of today suddenly lost the ability to cross those kinds of boundaries at will.</p><p>I think the sloppiness is just an amalgamation of laziness and arrogance compounded by certain sociological factors (viz. that college is just an extension of high school with beer and sex, not really a learning institution; or that universities are first and foremost businesses and not learning institutions).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've got a degree in Anthropology and the linguists in the department will agree with you on this point .
The official Anthropological stance is that language is just language , there is no " right " or " wrong .
" If it communicates , then it does its job.Having said that , I 'm not sure I agree with the linguists .
There is something to be said for formal writing ; baseline communication .
What you do in your spare time ( on facespace or in text messages ) is your own business .
But what you do on academic time or professional time is another matter .
There are plenty of people out there that can speak or write in multiple dialects , and there 's no reason to think that the children of today suddenly lost the ability to cross those kinds of boundaries at will.I think the sloppiness is just an amalgamation of laziness and arrogance compounded by certain sociological factors ( viz .
that college is just an extension of high school with beer and sex , not really a learning institution ; or that universities are first and foremost businesses and not learning institutions ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've got a degree in Anthropology and the linguists in the department will agree with you on this point.
The official Anthropological stance is that language is just language, there is no "right" or "wrong.
"  If it communicates, then it does its job.Having said that, I'm not sure I agree with the linguists.
There is something to be said for formal writing;  baseline communication.
What you do in your spare time (on facespace or in text messages) is your own business.
But what you do on academic time or professional time is another matter.
There are plenty of people out there that can speak or write in multiple dialects, and there's no reason to think that the children of today suddenly lost the ability to cross those kinds of boundaries at will.I think the sloppiness is just an amalgamation of laziness and arrogance compounded by certain sociological factors (viz.
that college is just an extension of high school with beer and sex, not really a learning institution; or that universities are first and foremost businesses and not learning institutions).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979892</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984846</id>
	<title>Re:Oh, no...</title>
	<author>ajlisows</author>
	<datestamp>1265054940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Argh.  Loose vs. Lose.  Here is the scary part of that recent phenomenon.  It has become so rampant that when I type something like "I hope the Colts lose the Super Bowl", I look at "lose" and feel it isn't right.  I'm so used to seeing "loose" in that situation that I am nearly compelled to use it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Argh .
Loose vs. Lose. Here is the scary part of that recent phenomenon .
It has become so rampant that when I type something like " I hope the Colts lose the Super Bowl " , I look at " lose " and feel it is n't right .
I 'm so used to seeing " loose " in that situation that I am nearly compelled to use it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Argh.
Loose vs. Lose.  Here is the scary part of that recent phenomenon.
It has become so rampant that when I type something like "I hope the Colts lose the Super Bowl", I look at "lose" and feel it isn't right.
I'm so used to seeing "loose" in that situation that I am nearly compelled to use it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980606</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980470</id>
	<title>but what is the cause...</title>
	<author>distantbody</author>
	<datestamp>1265036820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>low education standards or mass-retardation?</htmltext>
<tokenext>low education standards or mass-retardation ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>low education standards or mass-retardation?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984104</id>
	<title>Re:Freedom Fries</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265051520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So being considerate of the French is a reason to waste 2 seconds of my life?  Fuck you, sir.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So being considerate of the French is a reason to waste 2 seconds of my life ?
Fuck you , sir .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So being considerate of the French is a reason to waste 2 seconds of my life?
Fuck you, sir.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980196</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30993466</id>
	<title>I got the explanation</title>
	<author>jonaskoelker</author>
	<datestamp>1265114880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>'Definitely' is always spelled with an 'a' -'definitely'. I don't know why</p><p>Uh-huh.</p></div><p>I think he accidentally added some spurious apostrophes.  In reality, he's autistic.  Def-definitely autistic.  Definitely autistic.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>'Definitely ' is always spelled with an 'a ' -'definitely' .
I do n't know whyUh-huh.I think he accidentally added some spurious apostrophes .
In reality , he 's autistic .
Def-definitely autistic .
Definitely autistic .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>'Definitely' is always spelled with an 'a' -'definitely'.
I don't know whyUh-huh.I think he accidentally added some spurious apostrophes.
In reality, he's autistic.
Def-definitely autistic.
Definitely autistic.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980070</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981836</id>
	<title>Re:Spell Checking</title>
	<author>AttilaSz</author>
	<datestamp>1265042520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And some don't even bother running a spell checker, i.e. you<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And some do n't even bother running a spell checker , i.e .
you : - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And some don't even bother running a spell checker, i.e.
you :-)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979850</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984072</id>
	<title>I should of said</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265051400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>should of<br>could of<br>would of<br>Basically I'd rather have gooder spelling then poor grammer,like i could care less wether you could pacifically point out any errors, where you really listening in class?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>should ofcould ofwould ofBasically I 'd rather have gooder spelling then poor grammer,like i could care less wether you could pacifically point out any errors , where you really listening in class ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>should ofcould ofwould ofBasically I'd rather have gooder spelling then poor grammer,like i could care less wether you could pacifically point out any errors, where you really listening in class?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981900</id>
	<title>Re:priorities</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265042820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>How is the above insightful, the poster is just injecting his opinion on religion into a topic about language.  Off Topic Much?</p><p>Not only that but he clearly does not have any deeper understanding of Religion.  Religion is, first and foremost, about examining things.  To say otherwise is the sign of ignorance, not insight.</p><p>There are many people in religions that do not understand them.  There are many poor excuses for religion-- more akin to cults than religions.  Has our society become so jaded, so ill informed that we cannot tell the difference?</p><p>Do you think the Dali Llama and Pat Robertson are on the same level of critical thinking?  Do you feel that the Catholic Church and the Born Again Christians are the same?  Do you think that examination of our selves, or minds as opposed to our surroundings is somehow less important?  That the urge to understand our humanity is less important than understanding the stars?</p><p>Woeful is the world which places plants above people-- though we must strive to understand both.</p><p>You belie yourself as an ignorant and petty individual.  You either cannot think critically, or you have not tried.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>How is the above insightful , the poster is just injecting his opinion on religion into a topic about language .
Off Topic Much ? Not only that but he clearly does not have any deeper understanding of Religion .
Religion is , first and foremost , about examining things .
To say otherwise is the sign of ignorance , not insight.There are many people in religions that do not understand them .
There are many poor excuses for religion-- more akin to cults than religions .
Has our society become so jaded , so ill informed that we can not tell the difference ? Do you think the Dali Llama and Pat Robertson are on the same level of critical thinking ?
Do you feel that the Catholic Church and the Born Again Christians are the same ?
Do you think that examination of our selves , or minds as opposed to our surroundings is somehow less important ?
That the urge to understand our humanity is less important than understanding the stars ? Woeful is the world which places plants above people-- though we must strive to understand both.You belie yourself as an ignorant and petty individual .
You either can not think critically , or you have not tried .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>How is the above insightful, the poster is just injecting his opinion on religion into a topic about language.
Off Topic Much?Not only that but he clearly does not have any deeper understanding of Religion.
Religion is, first and foremost, about examining things.
To say otherwise is the sign of ignorance, not insight.There are many people in religions that do not understand them.
There are many poor excuses for religion-- more akin to cults than religions.
Has our society become so jaded, so ill informed that we cannot tell the difference?Do you think the Dali Llama and Pat Robertson are on the same level of critical thinking?
Do you feel that the Catholic Church and the Born Again Christians are the same?
Do you think that examination of our selves, or minds as opposed to our surroundings is somehow less important?
That the urge to understand our humanity is less important than understanding the stars?Woeful is the world which places plants above people-- though we must strive to understand both.You belie yourself as an ignorant and petty individual.
You either cannot think critically, or you have not tried.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980304</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980362</id>
	<title>Re:Just out of curiousity...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265036400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Canadian.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Canadian .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Canadian.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979898</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30983508</id>
	<title>Re:As a father...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265049120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You missed one:</p><p>4. The teacher doesn't know the correct way of spelling the word/punctuating the sentence.</p><p>Try going to a class full of Education majors at a big university some time;  it's downright terrifying to think of some of these people teaching children.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You missed one : 4 .
The teacher does n't know the correct way of spelling the word/punctuating the sentence.Try going to a class full of Education majors at a big university some time ; it 's downright terrifying to think of some of these people teaching children .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You missed one:4.
The teacher doesn't know the correct way of spelling the word/punctuating the sentence.Try going to a class full of Education majors at a big university some time;  it's downright terrifying to think of some of these people teaching children.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980568</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980232</id>
	<title>Re:Universities can't keep up</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265035740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Random usage of commas is not language evolving, it's language deteriorating. Written language is supposed to convey meaning, especially in a scientific context. Punctuation is a structural element: Sometimes it just helps the reader "look ahead", but often it can and does have semantic influence.</p><p>Misspellings hinder the reader's flow. While there is only one correct spelling of "because", there are many misspellings which can still be understood. This unnecessary complexity is disrespectful to the reader and distracts from the content. Orthography is not the place to express individualism. Scientists are supposed to make themselves known for their ideas, not their hip style. A few can get away with it, if their thoughts are worth overlooking poor spelling. Most should do everything they can to make their texts as accessible to the audience as possible.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Random usage of commas is not language evolving , it 's language deteriorating .
Written language is supposed to convey meaning , especially in a scientific context .
Punctuation is a structural element : Sometimes it just helps the reader " look ahead " , but often it can and does have semantic influence.Misspellings hinder the reader 's flow .
While there is only one correct spelling of " because " , there are many misspellings which can still be understood .
This unnecessary complexity is disrespectful to the reader and distracts from the content .
Orthography is not the place to express individualism .
Scientists are supposed to make themselves known for their ideas , not their hip style .
A few can get away with it , if their thoughts are worth overlooking poor spelling .
Most should do everything they can to make their texts as accessible to the audience as possible .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Random usage of commas is not language evolving, it's language deteriorating.
Written language is supposed to convey meaning, especially in a scientific context.
Punctuation is a structural element: Sometimes it just helps the reader "look ahead", but often it can and does have semantic influence.Misspellings hinder the reader's flow.
While there is only one correct spelling of "because", there are many misspellings which can still be understood.
This unnecessary complexity is disrespectful to the reader and distracts from the content.
Orthography is not the place to express individualism.
Scientists are supposed to make themselves known for their ideas, not their hip style.
A few can get away with it, if their thoughts are worth overlooking poor spelling.
Most should do everything they can to make their texts as accessible to the audience as possible.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979892</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30985752</id>
	<title>Oh, Canada...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265014860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>From TFA: "There's a notion of a golden age in the past that students were wonderful, unlike now. I'm not sure that golden age ever existed,"</p></div></blockquote><p>That was my thought when I saw "Waterloo University" in the summary. About 25 years ago, a friend of mine dropped out of her third year of University in Toronto, mainly because she didn't believe her English was good enough. It was her second language, and she was fluent as far as I could tell. I tried to argue that she was above par, but she'd already decided, and she was nothing if not decisive. A couple years later she was managing two fashion stores in downtown, and was appalled to discover that locals couldn't manage enough correct sentences to complete a job application.</p><p><i>In my experience,</i> Canada has a very low standard for English in high school. The attitude is pretty much that everyone should have a high school diploma, and the bar is lowered accordingly. So school ends up being about babysitting till the kids can be ejected as junior adults, presumably to some union job, or to become a university's entrace problem. It doesn't sound like much has changed.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>From TFA : " There 's a notion of a golden age in the past that students were wonderful , unlike now .
I 'm not sure that golden age ever existed , " That was my thought when I saw " Waterloo University " in the summary .
About 25 years ago , a friend of mine dropped out of her third year of University in Toronto , mainly because she did n't believe her English was good enough .
It was her second language , and she was fluent as far as I could tell .
I tried to argue that she was above par , but she 'd already decided , and she was nothing if not decisive .
A couple years later she was managing two fashion stores in downtown , and was appalled to discover that locals could n't manage enough correct sentences to complete a job application.In my experience , Canada has a very low standard for English in high school .
The attitude is pretty much that everyone should have a high school diploma , and the bar is lowered accordingly .
So school ends up being about babysitting till the kids can be ejected as junior adults , presumably to some union job , or to become a university 's entrace problem .
It does n't sound like much has changed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>From TFA: "There's a notion of a golden age in the past that students were wonderful, unlike now.
I'm not sure that golden age ever existed,"That was my thought when I saw "Waterloo University" in the summary.
About 25 years ago, a friend of mine dropped out of her third year of University in Toronto, mainly because she didn't believe her English was good enough.
It was her second language, and she was fluent as far as I could tell.
I tried to argue that she was above par, but she'd already decided, and she was nothing if not decisive.
A couple years later she was managing two fashion stores in downtown, and was appalled to discover that locals couldn't manage enough correct sentences to complete a job application.In my experience, Canada has a very low standard for English in high school.
The attitude is pretty much that everyone should have a high school diploma, and the bar is lowered accordingly.
So school ends up being about babysitting till the kids can be ejected as junior adults, presumably to some union job, or to become a university's entrace problem.
It doesn't sound like much has changed.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980426</id>
	<title>70\% pass rate</title>
	<author>heffrey</author>
	<datestamp>1265036700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The pass rate seems quite respectable. I'm sure slashdot commenters and editors would have a much worse pass rate!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The pass rate seems quite respectable .
I 'm sure slashdot commenters and editors would have a much worse pass rate !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The pass rate seems quite respectable.
I'm sure slashdot commenters and editors would have a much worse pass rate!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30987796</id>
	<title>Re:As a father...</title>
	<author>kehren77</author>
	<datestamp>1265022000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I work for a school district as a computer tech and spend quite a bit of time at a large K-6 school. As part of my job, I handle the data transfer between their student information system and their grading system. I cannot recall a student at the school ever being held back a year. Either the school has the smartest kids in the area or they don't want to face reality.</p><p>I'm going to guess the reason is that they don't want to actually make someone feel bad about themselves.</p><p>This seems to be the common theme for the past couple of decades. The theory being that we can't do anything that will hurt a child's self-esteem. But we are really doing a disservice to those children by not preparing them for the real world. A world where everyone doesn't get a turn at bat and a trophy at the end of the day.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I work for a school district as a computer tech and spend quite a bit of time at a large K-6 school .
As part of my job , I handle the data transfer between their student information system and their grading system .
I can not recall a student at the school ever being held back a year .
Either the school has the smartest kids in the area or they do n't want to face reality.I 'm going to guess the reason is that they do n't want to actually make someone feel bad about themselves.This seems to be the common theme for the past couple of decades .
The theory being that we ca n't do anything that will hurt a child 's self-esteem .
But we are really doing a disservice to those children by not preparing them for the real world .
A world where everyone does n't get a turn at bat and a trophy at the end of the day .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I work for a school district as a computer tech and spend quite a bit of time at a large K-6 school.
As part of my job, I handle the data transfer between their student information system and their grading system.
I cannot recall a student at the school ever being held back a year.
Either the school has the smartest kids in the area or they don't want to face reality.I'm going to guess the reason is that they don't want to actually make someone feel bad about themselves.This seems to be the common theme for the past couple of decades.
The theory being that we can't do anything that will hurt a child's self-esteem.
But we are really doing a disservice to those children by not preparing them for the real world.
A world where everyone doesn't get a turn at bat and a trophy at the end of the day.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980568</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30985222</id>
	<title>Re:It's the parents</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265056320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, think about this for a minute.  What is the work environment these students can expect to go into?  A ruthless, competitive existence which regards workers as tools to be used until broken or no longer useful [or even no longer economic to use], whereupon they will be summarily discarded.  In the meantime, in the working environment, they will be treated like cattle by the sort of sadistic psychopaths which make up the modern 'boss' class.</p><p>With that joyful prospect in front of them, why should they develop any sort of work ethic, and why should they aspire to be "productive" members of society?</p><p>It is not just the educational system which is "to blame", but the whole political and economic system which reduced human beings to economic units, and expected them to just take their lumps and like it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , think about this for a minute .
What is the work environment these students can expect to go into ?
A ruthless , competitive existence which regards workers as tools to be used until broken or no longer useful [ or even no longer economic to use ] , whereupon they will be summarily discarded .
In the meantime , in the working environment , they will be treated like cattle by the sort of sadistic psychopaths which make up the modern 'boss ' class.With that joyful prospect in front of them , why should they develop any sort of work ethic , and why should they aspire to be " productive " members of society ? It is not just the educational system which is " to blame " , but the whole political and economic system which reduced human beings to economic units , and expected them to just take their lumps and like it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, think about this for a minute.
What is the work environment these students can expect to go into?
A ruthless, competitive existence which regards workers as tools to be used until broken or no longer useful [or even no longer economic to use], whereupon they will be summarily discarded.
In the meantime, in the working environment, they will be treated like cattle by the sort of sadistic psychopaths which make up the modern 'boss' class.With that joyful prospect in front of them, why should they develop any sort of work ethic, and why should they aspire to be "productive" members of society?It is not just the educational system which is "to blame", but the whole political and economic system which reduced human beings to economic units, and expected them to just take their lumps and like it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981088</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979838</id>
	<title>there loosers thats whi</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265034000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>If the schpelling and granmma on slashhdot is anythyn too go bi</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>If the schpelling and granmma on slashhdot is anythyn too go bi</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If the schpelling and granmma on slashhdot is anythyn too go bi</sentencetext>
</comment>
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--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981226
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30991662
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980720
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979872
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980854
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30994064
-http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30979952
--http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980148
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984980
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980988
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981988
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30981324
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30980924
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30988256
---http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_02_01_0553259.30984172
</commentlist>
</conversation>
