<article>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#article10_01_31_2017247</id>
	<title>Toyota Pedal Issue Highlights Move To Electronics</title>
	<author>timothy</author>
	<datestamp>1264926000000</datestamp>
	<htmltext>cyclocommuter writes with an excerpt from a brief WSJ story on increasing electronic control of car components: <i>"The gas pedal system used Toyota Motor Co.'s recall crisis was born from a movement in the auto industry to rely more on electronics to carry out a vehicle's most critical functions. The intricacy of such systems, which <a href="http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100131/NEWS11/100139963">replace hoses and hydraulic fluid with computer chips and electrical sensors</a>, has been a focus as Toyota struggled to find the cause for sudden acceleration of vehicles that led the company to halt sales of eight models this week."</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>cyclocommuter writes with an excerpt from a brief WSJ story on increasing electronic control of car components : " The gas pedal system used Toyota Motor Co. 's recall crisis was born from a movement in the auto industry to rely more on electronics to carry out a vehicle 's most critical functions .
The intricacy of such systems , which replace hoses and hydraulic fluid with computer chips and electrical sensors , has been a focus as Toyota struggled to find the cause for sudden acceleration of vehicles that led the company to halt sales of eight models this week .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>cyclocommuter writes with an excerpt from a brief WSJ story on increasing electronic control of car components: "The gas pedal system used Toyota Motor Co.'s recall crisis was born from a movement in the auto industry to rely more on electronics to carry out a vehicle's most critical functions.
The intricacy of such systems, which replace hoses and hydraulic fluid with computer chips and electrical sensors, has been a focus as Toyota struggled to find the cause for sudden acceleration of vehicles that led the company to halt sales of eight models this week.
"</sentencetext>
</article>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973610</id>
	<title>Re:Stupid summary, stupid story</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264931880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>victims report out of control acceleration where even pressing the brake harder merely mades engine ECM increase engine power, and can't merely move selector to neutral either (have to press brake in their stupid design).  Problem is clearly circuitry or software failure, nothing to do with their bullshit gas pedal or floor mat nonsense.  And gas pedal now only controls air intake, the computer controls fuel, not your daddy's cable pulled throttle.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>victims report out of control acceleration where even pressing the brake harder merely mades engine ECM increase engine power , and ca n't merely move selector to neutral either ( have to press brake in their stupid design ) .
Problem is clearly circuitry or software failure , nothing to do with their bullshit gas pedal or floor mat nonsense .
And gas pedal now only controls air intake , the computer controls fuel , not your daddy 's cable pulled throttle .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>victims report out of control acceleration where even pressing the brake harder merely mades engine ECM increase engine power, and can't merely move selector to neutral either (have to press brake in their stupid design).
Problem is clearly circuitry or software failure, nothing to do with their bullshit gas pedal or floor mat nonsense.
And gas pedal now only controls air intake, the computer controls fuel, not your daddy's cable pulled throttle.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973224</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974436</id>
	<title>Just apply the formula</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264936260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Jack: "I'm a recall coordinator. My job was to apply the formula. It's simple arithmetic. It's a story problem. A new car built by my company leaves Boston traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now: Do we initiate a recall? You take the number of vehicles in the field (A) and multiply it by the probable rate of failure (B), multiply the result by the average out-of-court settlement (C). A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one."</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Jack : " I 'm a recall coordinator .
My job was to apply the formula .
It 's simple arithmetic .
It 's a story problem .
A new car built by my company leaves Boston traveling at 60 mph .
The rear differential locks up .
The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside .
Now : Do we initiate a recall ?
You take the number of vehicles in the field ( A ) and multiply it by the probable rate of failure ( B ) , multiply the result by the average out-of-court settlement ( C ) .
A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall , we do n't do one .
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Jack: "I'm a recall coordinator.
My job was to apply the formula.
It's simple arithmetic.
It's a story problem.
A new car built by my company leaves Boston traveling at 60 mph.
The rear differential locks up.
The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside.
Now: Do we initiate a recall?
You take the number of vehicles in the field (A) and multiply it by the probable rate of failure (B), multiply the result by the average out-of-court settlement (C).
A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973552</id>
	<title>Mechanical versus Electronic isn't the issue</title>
	<author>engineer23</author>
	<datestamp>1264931640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I agree on the idea that it doesn't matter if the system is electronic or mechanical.  Each type has positives and negatives.  What matters the most is whether the system is properly designed with a safety system.  Lots of automobiles have problems that occur on a regular basis.  It is the ones that make people kill each other that make the headline news.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree on the idea that it does n't matter if the system is electronic or mechanical .
Each type has positives and negatives .
What matters the most is whether the system is properly designed with a safety system .
Lots of automobiles have problems that occur on a regular basis .
It is the ones that make people kill each other that make the headline news .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree on the idea that it doesn't matter if the system is electronic or mechanical.
Each type has positives and negatives.
What matters the most is whether the system is properly designed with a safety system.
Lots of automobiles have problems that occur on a regular basis.
It is the ones that make people kill each other that make the headline news.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973634</id>
	<title>Is handbrake still hydraulic?</title>
	<author>Midnight Thunder</author>
	<datestamp>1264932000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Reading this article makes me wonder if at least the hand brake is still a mechanical component? I would hate for the electronics to fail and suddenly find myself with no way to stop the car. I wonder how much consideration has been given to fail-safes in this move to more electronics for essential control of the vehicle, especially in cases of poor maintenance?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Reading this article makes me wonder if at least the hand brake is still a mechanical component ?
I would hate for the electronics to fail and suddenly find myself with no way to stop the car .
I wonder how much consideration has been given to fail-safes in this move to more electronics for essential control of the vehicle , especially in cases of poor maintenance ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Reading this article makes me wonder if at least the hand brake is still a mechanical component?
I would hate for the electronics to fail and suddenly find myself with no way to stop the car.
I wonder how much consideration has been given to fail-safes in this move to more electronics for essential control of the vehicle, especially in cases of poor maintenance?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974116</id>
	<title>Re:missing option Manual Transmission</title>
	<author>bhsurfer</author>
	<datestamp>1264934520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I have a toyota tacoma (pre-recall) that has a 6 speed manual transmission and I love it.  It's amazing to me, however, the number of people who simply don't know how to operate a manual vehicle.  I insisted that my daughter learn to drive in one, and my son will be learning how in this particular one this summer.  Seems to me there's no harm in knowing how to operate common machinery even if later on you decide you don't want to use it and choose an automatic instead.

Some folks might think it's old fashioned or whatever, but I wouldn't be too amazed to find that those are largely the people who don't know how to use one.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have a toyota tacoma ( pre-recall ) that has a 6 speed manual transmission and I love it .
It 's amazing to me , however , the number of people who simply do n't know how to operate a manual vehicle .
I insisted that my daughter learn to drive in one , and my son will be learning how in this particular one this summer .
Seems to me there 's no harm in knowing how to operate common machinery even if later on you decide you do n't want to use it and choose an automatic instead .
Some folks might think it 's old fashioned or whatever , but I would n't be too amazed to find that those are largely the people who do n't know how to use one .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have a toyota tacoma (pre-recall) that has a 6 speed manual transmission and I love it.
It's amazing to me, however, the number of people who simply don't know how to operate a manual vehicle.
I insisted that my daughter learn to drive in one, and my son will be learning how in this particular one this summer.
Seems to me there's no harm in knowing how to operate common machinery even if later on you decide you don't want to use it and choose an automatic instead.
Some folks might think it's old fashioned or whatever, but I wouldn't be too amazed to find that those are largely the people who don't know how to use one.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973398</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30979760</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>Fahrvergnuugen</author>
	<datestamp>1265033340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And, might I add, the car that killed the police officer and his family in California was a Lexus, yet Toyota has only recalled (and stopped selling / producing) Toyota models.</p><p>The accelerator pedal assembly used in Lexus &amp; Scion cars comes from a different supplier than the ones with the supposed bushing problem.</p><p>Personally I don't think they have a f'ing clue as to what the problem is.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And , might I add , the car that killed the police officer and his family in California was a Lexus , yet Toyota has only recalled ( and stopped selling / producing ) Toyota models.The accelerator pedal assembly used in Lexus &amp; Scion cars comes from a different supplier than the ones with the supposed bushing problem.Personally I do n't think they have a f'ing clue as to what the problem is .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And, might I add, the car that killed the police officer and his family in California was a Lexus, yet Toyota has only recalled (and stopped selling / producing) Toyota models.The accelerator pedal assembly used in Lexus &amp; Scion cars comes from a different supplier than the ones with the supposed bushing problem.Personally I don't think they have a f'ing clue as to what the problem is.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973376</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30979444</id>
	<title>Re:missing option Manual Transmission</title>
	<author>mousse-man</author>
	<datestamp>1265029500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Maye I'm just very good, but so far, I haven't been able to kill my manual transmission in a BMW E36, and that's wth more than 120k miles on it. Also, when buying such cars used, one can save a lot of money if the previous owner wasn't a moron.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Maye I 'm just very good , but so far , I have n't been able to kill my manual transmission in a BMW E36 , and that 's wth more than 120k miles on it .
Also , when buying such cars used , one can save a lot of money if the previous owner was n't a moron .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Maye I'm just very good, but so far, I haven't been able to kill my manual transmission in a BMW E36, and that's wth more than 120k miles on it.
Also, when buying such cars used, one can save a lot of money if the previous owner wasn't a moron.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975272</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30987670</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265021400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Automatics never need to throttle and brake at the same time because the transmission doesn't allow them to roll backwards.</p><p>Manuals with electronic accelerator and breaks should be fine.  Slam the brake and the accelerator with one foot, theoretically the brake overrides the accelerator so you get no rev, slowly let off the brake as you let off the clutch and you should get perfect acceleration as the lifting off the brake slowly allows the accelerator signal to work.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Automatics never need to throttle and brake at the same time because the transmission does n't allow them to roll backwards.Manuals with electronic accelerator and breaks should be fine .
Slam the brake and the accelerator with one foot , theoretically the brake overrides the accelerator so you get no rev , slowly let off the brake as you let off the clutch and you should get perfect acceleration as the lifting off the brake slowly allows the accelerator signal to work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Automatics never need to throttle and brake at the same time because the transmission doesn't allow them to roll backwards.Manuals with electronic accelerator and breaks should be fine.
Slam the brake and the accelerator with one foot, theoretically the brake overrides the accelerator so you get no rev, slowly let off the brake as you let off the clutch and you should get perfect acceleration as the lifting off the brake slowly allows the accelerator signal to work.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973370</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974526</id>
	<title>Re:missing option Manual Transmission</title>
	<author>i\_liek\_turtles</author>
	<datestamp>1264936920000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Very few people in America care whether or not they are a pussy for using an automatic, because most people probably don't want to drive in the first place.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Very few people in America care whether or not they are a pussy for using an automatic , because most people probably do n't want to drive in the first place .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Very few people in America care whether or not they are a pussy for using an automatic, because most people probably don't want to drive in the first place.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974192</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975234</id>
	<title>Fly-by-wire repeated</title>
	<author>Daevad</author>
	<datestamp>1264941720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This reminds me of the situation with the first fly-by-wire airliners.  There was a lot of concern by pilots and others over the reliability of the hardware and the software.  And a lot more thought goes in to designing airliners than cars.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This reminds me of the situation with the first fly-by-wire airliners .
There was a lot of concern by pilots and others over the reliability of the hardware and the software .
And a lot more thought goes in to designing airliners than cars .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This reminds me of the situation with the first fly-by-wire airliners.
There was a lot of concern by pilots and others over the reliability of the hardware and the software.
And a lot more thought goes in to designing airliners than cars.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973720</id>
	<title>The way this ought to work</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264932420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
The way this ought to work is that there should be two different sensors in the pedal, and they should be of different types, like one resistive pot and one Hall-effect transducer.
</p><p>
Then, the vehicle electronics should have both a software implementation that checks the two for consistency and monitors engine RPM, and a hardware backup which inhibits fuel flow and spark if either sensor indicates a released gas pedal and engine RPM is above idle and not dropping.  (Engine RPM comes from the crankshaft position sensor, and if that fails, spark timing will fail and the engine won't run.  So crankshaft position sensor failure isn't an engine runaway risk.) There's some cost to the hardware backup, but it's fewer parts than one window actuator.
</p><p>
Then the software should have a backup function such that if either the brake pedal or the handbrake is active, and speed is above 5MPH, the throttle is treated as being at the released position.  That's a no-cost feature.
</p><p>
I knew the people who designed the Ford EEC IV in the 1980s, and they thought like that.  They were terrified of a software problem that affected safety.  In the EEC IV, the program was masked directly into the CPU chip's ROM, and cannot be changed. (There's a bolted-on ROM unit that has the data tables for each engine model, and you can replace that, but there's no code in it.)  It never needed to be; cars with the EEC IV are still running, and there was never a recall for a "firmware update".</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The way this ought to work is that there should be two different sensors in the pedal , and they should be of different types , like one resistive pot and one Hall-effect transducer .
Then , the vehicle electronics should have both a software implementation that checks the two for consistency and monitors engine RPM , and a hardware backup which inhibits fuel flow and spark if either sensor indicates a released gas pedal and engine RPM is above idle and not dropping .
( Engine RPM comes from the crankshaft position sensor , and if that fails , spark timing will fail and the engine wo n't run .
So crankshaft position sensor failure is n't an engine runaway risk .
) There 's some cost to the hardware backup , but it 's fewer parts than one window actuator .
Then the software should have a backup function such that if either the brake pedal or the handbrake is active , and speed is above 5MPH , the throttle is treated as being at the released position .
That 's a no-cost feature .
I knew the people who designed the Ford EEC IV in the 1980s , and they thought like that .
They were terrified of a software problem that affected safety .
In the EEC IV , the program was masked directly into the CPU chip 's ROM , and can not be changed .
( There 's a bolted-on ROM unit that has the data tables for each engine model , and you can replace that , but there 's no code in it .
) It never needed to be ; cars with the EEC IV are still running , and there was never a recall for a " firmware update " .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
The way this ought to work is that there should be two different sensors in the pedal, and they should be of different types, like one resistive pot and one Hall-effect transducer.
Then, the vehicle electronics should have both a software implementation that checks the two for consistency and monitors engine RPM, and a hardware backup which inhibits fuel flow and spark if either sensor indicates a released gas pedal and engine RPM is above idle and not dropping.
(Engine RPM comes from the crankshaft position sensor, and if that fails, spark timing will fail and the engine won't run.
So crankshaft position sensor failure isn't an engine runaway risk.
) There's some cost to the hardware backup, but it's fewer parts than one window actuator.
Then the software should have a backup function such that if either the brake pedal or the handbrake is active, and speed is above 5MPH, the throttle is treated as being at the released position.
That's a no-cost feature.
I knew the people who designed the Ford EEC IV in the 1980s, and they thought like that.
They were terrified of a software problem that affected safety.
In the EEC IV, the program was masked directly into the CPU chip's ROM, and cannot be changed.
(There's a bolted-on ROM unit that has the data tables for each engine model, and you can replace that, but there's no code in it.
)  It never needed to be; cars with the EEC IV are still running, and there was never a recall for a "firmware update".</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975832</id>
	<title>Re:Is handbrake still hydraulic?</title>
	<author>Grishnakh</author>
	<datestamp>1264945560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The handbrake is a "parking brake", and ONLY for that.  Using it in an emergency will cause you to lock up your rear wheels and crash.  It won't stop your car.</p><p>As for how much consideration has been given to fail-safes: not much.  I think we're going to see a lot more stories in the future about people getting killed with runaway cars, especially with the poor maintenance you mention.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The handbrake is a " parking brake " , and ONLY for that .
Using it in an emergency will cause you to lock up your rear wheels and crash .
It wo n't stop your car.As for how much consideration has been given to fail-safes : not much .
I think we 're going to see a lot more stories in the future about people getting killed with runaway cars , especially with the poor maintenance you mention .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The handbrake is a "parking brake", and ONLY for that.
Using it in an emergency will cause you to lock up your rear wheels and crash.
It won't stop your car.As for how much consideration has been given to fail-safes: not much.
I think we're going to see a lot more stories in the future about people getting killed with runaway cars, especially with the poor maintenance you mention.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973634</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973974</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264933800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Umm, it's easier with parking brake:</p><ol><li>Engaged parking brake</li><li>Press the clutch pedal, shift to neutral</li><li>Start the engine</li><li>Shift first gear</li><li>Push the throttle so it doesn't die, slowly release clutch pedal until the car starts straining against parking brake</li><li>Release parking brake, car starts moving ahead</li></ol><p>This way, you don't need to push two pedals with one foot and it's much easier overall.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Umm , it 's easier with parking brake : Engaged parking brakePress the clutch pedal , shift to neutralStart the engineShift first gearPush the throttle so it does n't die , slowly release clutch pedal until the car starts straining against parking brakeRelease parking brake , car starts moving aheadThis way , you do n't need to push two pedals with one foot and it 's much easier overall .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Umm, it's easier with parking brake:Engaged parking brakePress the clutch pedal, shift to neutralStart the engineShift first gearPush the throttle so it doesn't die, slowly release clutch pedal until the car starts straining against parking brakeRelease parking brake, car starts moving aheadThis way, you don't need to push two pedals with one foot and it's much easier overall.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973582</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30977626</id>
	<title>Re:Moving too fast</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264962000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The gas pedal never actually managed the amount of fuel fed to the injectors (except on a Diesel). The gas pedal actually controls the throttle, which is the air intake valve. The amount of oxygen in the intake air is sensed, and the computer adjusts the fuel and timing in accordance.</p><p>dom</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The gas pedal never actually managed the amount of fuel fed to the injectors ( except on a Diesel ) .
The gas pedal actually controls the throttle , which is the air intake valve .
The amount of oxygen in the intake air is sensed , and the computer adjusts the fuel and timing in accordance.dom</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The gas pedal never actually managed the amount of fuel fed to the injectors (except on a Diesel).
The gas pedal actually controls the throttle, which is the air intake valve.
The amount of oxygen in the intake air is sensed, and the computer adjusts the fuel and timing in accordance.dom</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973326</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30977534</id>
	<title>Catching up.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264960980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The auto industry is starting to catch up to the IT industry. Now I have to treat my automotive purchases the same way I treat my technology purchases: By avoiding new products until they are proven reliable.</p><p>[insert Gates vs. GM reference here] (On a side note, I have to ask why Gates said cars should cost $25, while his fancily-packages CDs cost over $100)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The auto industry is starting to catch up to the IT industry .
Now I have to treat my automotive purchases the same way I treat my technology purchases : By avoiding new products until they are proven reliable .
[ insert Gates vs. GM reference here ] ( On a side note , I have to ask why Gates said cars should cost $ 25 , while his fancily-packages CDs cost over $ 100 )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The auto industry is starting to catch up to the IT industry.
Now I have to treat my automotive purchases the same way I treat my technology purchases: By avoiding new products until they are proven reliable.
[insert Gates vs. GM reference here] (On a side note, I have to ask why Gates said cars should cost $25, while his fancily-packages CDs cost over $100)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974350</id>
	<title>Nothing to see here, really</title>
	<author>Angst Badger</author>
	<datestamp>1264935720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Anyone can design a bad system, regardless of the underlying technology. There's no reason electronic systems can't be as or (one would hope) vastly more reliable than their mechanical predecessors. Because Toyota fucked up with this one says no more about electronic controls than the bugginess of Windows says about C/C++/C# or a shoddily constructed house says about the reliability of hammers and nails. It's what you do with the tools that counts.</p><p>Odds are the underlying problem here is the same as with a lot of commercial software: some bean counter wants it out the door before its ready in a corporate culture where product quality is secondary to the current quarter's profits. Under those conditions, the system could have been built with [insert your favorite technology here] and still come out poorly.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Anyone can design a bad system , regardless of the underlying technology .
There 's no reason electronic systems ca n't be as or ( one would hope ) vastly more reliable than their mechanical predecessors .
Because Toyota fucked up with this one says no more about electronic controls than the bugginess of Windows says about C/C + + /C # or a shoddily constructed house says about the reliability of hammers and nails .
It 's what you do with the tools that counts.Odds are the underlying problem here is the same as with a lot of commercial software : some bean counter wants it out the door before its ready in a corporate culture where product quality is secondary to the current quarter 's profits .
Under those conditions , the system could have been built with [ insert your favorite technology here ] and still come out poorly .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Anyone can design a bad system, regardless of the underlying technology.
There's no reason electronic systems can't be as or (one would hope) vastly more reliable than their mechanical predecessors.
Because Toyota fucked up with this one says no more about electronic controls than the bugginess of Windows says about C/C++/C# or a shoddily constructed house says about the reliability of hammers and nails.
It's what you do with the tools that counts.Odds are the underlying problem here is the same as with a lot of commercial software: some bean counter wants it out the door before its ready in a corporate culture where product quality is secondary to the current quarter's profits.
Under those conditions, the system could have been built with [insert your favorite technology here] and still come out poorly.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973744</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264932600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Well, usually cars are built for driving in normal traffic, not for racing. If you want a racing car, you should buy a racing car (and don't drive in the normal traffic with it).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Well , usually cars are built for driving in normal traffic , not for racing .
If you want a racing car , you should buy a racing car ( and do n't drive in the normal traffic with it ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Well, usually cars are built for driving in normal traffic, not for racing.
If you want a racing car, you should buy a racing car (and don't drive in the normal traffic with it).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973418</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974786</id>
	<title>There's more to this than a mechanical problem</title>
	<author>Jim2718</author>
	<datestamp>1264938720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The Los Angeles Times has taken the lead on breaking this story. They published another article yesterday: <a href="http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-pedal30-2010jan30,0,4401302.story" title="latimes.com" rel="nofollow">Doubt cast on Toyota's decision to blame sudden acceleration on gas pedal defect
</a> [latimes.com] </p><p>Here's a quote: "The way the sudden-acceleration problems are occurring in reported incidents doesn't comport with how this sticky pedal is described," said Sean Kane, president of Safety Research &amp; Strategies, a Rehoboth, Mass., auto safety consulting firm. "We know this recall is a red herring."</p><p>The number of reports of unintended acceleration increased by as much as a factor of 5 for some models after Toyota introduced electronic throttle control systems. While floor mats and defective accelerator pedals may have caused some of the problems, they don't explain many of the reported cases of uncommanded acceleration.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The Los Angeles Times has taken the lead on breaking this story .
They published another article yesterday : Doubt cast on Toyota 's decision to blame sudden acceleration on gas pedal defect [ latimes.com ] Here 's a quote : " The way the sudden-acceleration problems are occurring in reported incidents does n't comport with how this sticky pedal is described , " said Sean Kane , president of Safety Research &amp; Strategies , a Rehoboth , Mass. , auto safety consulting firm .
" We know this recall is a red herring .
" The number of reports of unintended acceleration increased by as much as a factor of 5 for some models after Toyota introduced electronic throttle control systems .
While floor mats and defective accelerator pedals may have caused some of the problems , they do n't explain many of the reported cases of uncommanded acceleration .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The Los Angeles Times has taken the lead on breaking this story.
They published another article yesterday: Doubt cast on Toyota's decision to blame sudden acceleration on gas pedal defect
 [latimes.com] Here's a quote: "The way the sudden-acceleration problems are occurring in reported incidents doesn't comport with how this sticky pedal is described," said Sean Kane, president of Safety Research &amp; Strategies, a Rehoboth, Mass., auto safety consulting firm.
"We know this recall is a red herring.
"The number of reports of unintended acceleration increased by as much as a factor of 5 for some models after Toyota introduced electronic throttle control systems.
While floor mats and defective accelerator pedals may have caused some of the problems, they don't explain many of the reported cases of uncommanded acceleration.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30977166</id>
	<title>Re:I design computer hardware and software...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264957440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>I design computer hardware and software and I always tell people:</p><blockquote><div><p>DON'T TRUST COMPUTERS <b>THAT I'VE TOUCHED</b> </p></div></blockquote><p>But No On Believes Me...</p><p>--jeffk++</p></div><p>There, fixed that for you.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I design computer hardware and software and I always tell people : DO N'T TRUST COMPUTERS THAT I 'VE TOUCHED But No On Believes Me...--jeffk + + There , fixed that for you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I design computer hardware and software and I always tell people:DON'T TRUST COMPUTERS THAT I'VE TOUCHED But No On Believes Me...--jeffk++There, fixed that for you.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973210</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30978222</id>
	<title>I own a Camry 2009 - I too suspect it is the ECM</title>
	<author>rcb1974</author>
	<datestamp>1265056560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext>I'm also a software developer, and an owner of a Camry 2009.  I suspect a software or computer glitch is the root cause.  I've experienced unintended acceleration in my Camry twice while I was cruising on a flat straight road going about 38MPH.  Both my feet were completely motionless both times it happened.  While my right foot was steady on the accelerator, the car just sped up (by about 1 to 2MPH/second) for about 2.5 seconds.  I was like WTF was that!?!?!  So far, I've only had it happen a few times, but I know it wasn't caused by the fricking floor mat.  Last year when I heard Toyota blame it on the floor mat I got so upset because, based on my experience, I knew it wasn't caused by the floor mat.  I don't know why Toyota is so reluctant to audit their computer hardware/software.  Toyota should be forced to release all the code that is in any way/shape/form connected to the throttle and accelerator pedal for public scrutiny.  It will cost them essentially nothing to post the code on their website, so there is no reason not to do this.  Since buggy code could jeopardize the safety of the public, the code should be publicly available.  Read my post from last year about this here:  <a href="http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1430048&amp;cid=29976746&amp;art\_pos=18" title="slashdot.org">http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1430048&amp;cid=29976746&amp;art\_pos=18</a> [slashdot.org]  My guess is that is probably some stupid divide by zero or integer overflow glitch.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm also a software developer , and an owner of a Camry 2009 .
I suspect a software or computer glitch is the root cause .
I 've experienced unintended acceleration in my Camry twice while I was cruising on a flat straight road going about 38MPH .
Both my feet were completely motionless both times it happened .
While my right foot was steady on the accelerator , the car just sped up ( by about 1 to 2MPH/second ) for about 2.5 seconds .
I was like WTF was that ! ? ! ? !
So far , I 've only had it happen a few times , but I know it was n't caused by the fricking floor mat .
Last year when I heard Toyota blame it on the floor mat I got so upset because , based on my experience , I knew it was n't caused by the floor mat .
I do n't know why Toyota is so reluctant to audit their computer hardware/software .
Toyota should be forced to release all the code that is in any way/shape/form connected to the throttle and accelerator pedal for public scrutiny .
It will cost them essentially nothing to post the code on their website , so there is no reason not to do this .
Since buggy code could jeopardize the safety of the public , the code should be publicly available .
Read my post from last year about this here : http : //slashdot.org/comments.pl ? sid = 1430048&amp;cid = 29976746&amp;art \ _pos = 18 [ slashdot.org ] My guess is that is probably some stupid divide by zero or integer overflow glitch .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm also a software developer, and an owner of a Camry 2009.
I suspect a software or computer glitch is the root cause.
I've experienced unintended acceleration in my Camry twice while I was cruising on a flat straight road going about 38MPH.
Both my feet were completely motionless both times it happened.
While my right foot was steady on the accelerator, the car just sped up (by about 1 to 2MPH/second) for about 2.5 seconds.
I was like WTF was that!?!?!
So far, I've only had it happen a few times, but I know it wasn't caused by the fricking floor mat.
Last year when I heard Toyota blame it on the floor mat I got so upset because, based on my experience, I knew it wasn't caused by the floor mat.
I don't know why Toyota is so reluctant to audit their computer hardware/software.
Toyota should be forced to release all the code that is in any way/shape/form connected to the throttle and accelerator pedal for public scrutiny.
It will cost them essentially nothing to post the code on their website, so there is no reason not to do this.
Since buggy code could jeopardize the safety of the public, the code should be publicly available.
Read my post from last year about this here:  http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1430048&amp;cid=29976746&amp;art\_pos=18 [slashdot.org]  My guess is that is probably some stupid divide by zero or integer overflow glitch.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974688</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973398</id>
	<title>missing option Manual Transmission</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264930980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Back in my day, cars had a 3rd pedal on the floor called the clutch. If your throttle got stuck you could hit the clutch pedal and cut the power to the transmission.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Back in my day , cars had a 3rd pedal on the floor called the clutch .
If your throttle got stuck you could hit the clutch pedal and cut the power to the transmission .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Back in my day, cars had a 3rd pedal on the floor called the clutch.
If your throttle got stuck you could hit the clutch pedal and cut the power to the transmission.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30977782</id>
	<title>Re:Buying a car without mechanical brakes is</title>
	<author>joe\_frisch</author>
	<datestamp>1264963560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Anti lock brakes must allow some sort of electronic control unit to disable the breaking action when the tires loose traction. Is there a plausible scenario where a failure of that unit could be coupled to a failure of an electronic engine control?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Anti lock brakes must allow some sort of electronic control unit to disable the breaking action when the tires loose traction .
Is there a plausible scenario where a failure of that unit could be coupled to a failure of an electronic engine control ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Anti lock brakes must allow some sort of electronic control unit to disable the breaking action when the tires loose traction.
Is there a plausible scenario where a failure of that unit could be coupled to a failure of an electronic engine control?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975180</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973318</id>
	<title>Growing pains don't mean you should stop growing</title>
	<author>copponex</author>
	<datestamp>1264930440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>First of all, the article says:</p><p><div class="quote"><p>Toyota has said its latest problem happened because condensation from heaters caused increased friction in the gas pedal, making it stick in some cases, making the problem a mechanical one and not an issue of electronics</p></div><p>So, this is in all likelihood, a fluff piece about a mechanical issue that tries to scapegoat the lack of an electronic safety on the pedal. Which defeats the implied issues with malfunctioning electronics - it's the lack of more electronics that may be the problem.</p><p>Second, the old saying is that you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs. Truly, you can't improve technology unless you are willing to make mistakes. As long as companies aren't being reckless with the risks they are taking, and as long as we are trying to move forward instead of being terrified of the future, these mistakes are signs of progress, not failure.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>First of all , the article says : Toyota has said its latest problem happened because condensation from heaters caused increased friction in the gas pedal , making it stick in some cases , making the problem a mechanical one and not an issue of electronicsSo , this is in all likelihood , a fluff piece about a mechanical issue that tries to scapegoat the lack of an electronic safety on the pedal .
Which defeats the implied issues with malfunctioning electronics - it 's the lack of more electronics that may be the problem.Second , the old saying is that you ca n't make an omelette without breaking some eggs .
Truly , you ca n't improve technology unless you are willing to make mistakes .
As long as companies are n't being reckless with the risks they are taking , and as long as we are trying to move forward instead of being terrified of the future , these mistakes are signs of progress , not failure .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>First of all, the article says:Toyota has said its latest problem happened because condensation from heaters caused increased friction in the gas pedal, making it stick in some cases, making the problem a mechanical one and not an issue of electronicsSo, this is in all likelihood, a fluff piece about a mechanical issue that tries to scapegoat the lack of an electronic safety on the pedal.
Which defeats the implied issues with malfunctioning electronics - it's the lack of more electronics that may be the problem.Second, the old saying is that you can't make an omelette without breaking some eggs.
Truly, you can't improve technology unless you are willing to make mistakes.
As long as companies aren't being reckless with the risks they are taking, and as long as we are trying to move forward instead of being terrified of the future, these mistakes are signs of progress, not failure.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973750</id>
	<title>sudden acceleration</title>
	<author>thirdbrother3</author>
	<datestamp>1264932600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>"Toyota struggled to find the cause for sudden acceleration" - not surprised, I've never manage to find it in a Toyota either!</htmltext>
<tokenext>" Toyota struggled to find the cause for sudden acceleration " - not surprised , I 've never manage to find it in a Toyota either !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Toyota struggled to find the cause for sudden acceleration" - not surprised, I've never manage to find it in a Toyota either!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975638</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>0100010001010011</author>
	<datestamp>1264944060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I own a VW TDI. It's all TDW because the diesel is electronically governed. It's is IMPOSSIBLE to power brake.</p><p>If you just lightly touch the brake pedal with the accelerator to the floor, fuel cuts back to idle.</p><p>Only way to power brake now is to use the parking brake.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I own a VW TDI .
It 's all TDW because the diesel is electronically governed .
It 's is IMPOSSIBLE to power brake.If you just lightly touch the brake pedal with the accelerator to the floor , fuel cuts back to idle.Only way to power brake now is to use the parking brake .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I own a VW TDI.
It's all TDW because the diesel is electronically governed.
It's is IMPOSSIBLE to power brake.If you just lightly touch the brake pedal with the accelerator to the floor, fuel cuts back to idle.Only way to power brake now is to use the parking brake.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973228</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973210</id>
	<title>I design computer hardware and software...</title>
	<author>statusbar</author>
	<datestamp>1264929840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
I design computer hardware and software and I always tell people:</p><blockquote><div><p>DON'T TRUST COMPUTERS</p></div>
</blockquote><p>
But No On Believes Me...
</p><p>
--jeffk++</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>I design computer hardware and software and I always tell people : DO N'T TRUST COMPUTERS But No On Believes Me.. . --jeffk + +</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
I design computer hardware and software and I always tell people:DON'T TRUST COMPUTERS

But No On Believes Me...

--jeffk++
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975612</id>
	<title>Re:Stupid summary, stupid story</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264943880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Most throttles are a simple cable system (or, at least, they used to be). Such a system doesn't break often and, when it does break, seems to be a gradual thing.</p></div></blockquote><p>Not true.  Mechanical throttles will (and do) stick suddenly, and do so with far more regularity that electronic throttles.  A few posts up in this discussion is a myriad of recalls for just that for the last decade or two alone, and believe me there were more.  Do you want to go back to the days of stuck throttles, carbs and cabling?</p><blockquote><div><p>A throttle really needs to be designed with safety in mind: IE, under-working not over-working. In other words, the car doesn't "go", never mind not accelerating.</p></div></blockquote><p>It is.  There's multiple redundant sensors that feed the ECU and throttle, and a disagreement in any will put the car in limp-home mode (low revs, cut powerm less gears, etc).  By the way, a cable-throttle car with a carb can't have a limp mode.  The problem is that some parts of the system can't be made redunant, such as, eg, what happens if the pedal is stuck down.</p><p>This is why the first and most common cause was the floormats: the pedal gets physically obstructed.  It's marginally more possible for this to happen in a Toyota, and it's also a bit of bad engineering, but it (and the worn spring in the CTS pedal that they're now pointing to as the other cause) have exactly nothing to do with electronics.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Most throttles are a simple cable system ( or , at least , they used to be ) .
Such a system does n't break often and , when it does break , seems to be a gradual thing.Not true .
Mechanical throttles will ( and do ) stick suddenly , and do so with far more regularity that electronic throttles .
A few posts up in this discussion is a myriad of recalls for just that for the last decade or two alone , and believe me there were more .
Do you want to go back to the days of stuck throttles , carbs and cabling ? A throttle really needs to be designed with safety in mind : IE , under-working not over-working .
In other words , the car does n't " go " , never mind not accelerating.It is .
There 's multiple redundant sensors that feed the ECU and throttle , and a disagreement in any will put the car in limp-home mode ( low revs , cut powerm less gears , etc ) .
By the way , a cable-throttle car with a carb ca n't have a limp mode .
The problem is that some parts of the system ca n't be made redunant , such as , eg , what happens if the pedal is stuck down.This is why the first and most common cause was the floormats : the pedal gets physically obstructed .
It 's marginally more possible for this to happen in a Toyota , and it 's also a bit of bad engineering , but it ( and the worn spring in the CTS pedal that they 're now pointing to as the other cause ) have exactly nothing to do with electronics .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most throttles are a simple cable system (or, at least, they used to be).
Such a system doesn't break often and, when it does break, seems to be a gradual thing.Not true.
Mechanical throttles will (and do) stick suddenly, and do so with far more regularity that electronic throttles.
A few posts up in this discussion is a myriad of recalls for just that for the last decade or two alone, and believe me there were more.
Do you want to go back to the days of stuck throttles, carbs and cabling?A throttle really needs to be designed with safety in mind: IE, under-working not over-working.
In other words, the car doesn't "go", never mind not accelerating.It is.
There's multiple redundant sensors that feed the ECU and throttle, and a disagreement in any will put the car in limp-home mode (low revs, cut powerm less gears, etc).
By the way, a cable-throttle car with a carb can't have a limp mode.
The problem is that some parts of the system can't be made redunant, such as, eg, what happens if the pedal is stuck down.This is why the first and most common cause was the floormats: the pedal gets physically obstructed.
It's marginally more possible for this to happen in a Toyota, and it's also a bit of bad engineering, but it (and the worn spring in the CTS pedal that they're now pointing to as the other cause) have exactly nothing to do with electronics.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973378</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973418</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264931040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>There is still no excuse for Toyota not coding the ECU to cut throttle when it senses that the driver has BOTH the throttle and the brakes on simultaneously. All drive by wire VW/Audis are setup this way.</p></div><p>You've never done any serious performance driving, have you? That's OK if you want to drive like a grandmother, but you may want to read up on the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heel-and-toe" title="wikipedia.org" rel="nofollow">heel-and-toe technique</a> [wikipedia.org] to find out why some of us would never settle for a car with the limitations you mentioned.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>There is still no excuse for Toyota not coding the ECU to cut throttle when it senses that the driver has BOTH the throttle and the brakes on simultaneously .
All drive by wire VW/Audis are setup this way.You 've never done any serious performance driving , have you ?
That 's OK if you want to drive like a grandmother , but you may want to read up on the heel-and-toe technique [ wikipedia.org ] to find out why some of us would never settle for a car with the limitations you mentioned .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is still no excuse for Toyota not coding the ECU to cut throttle when it senses that the driver has BOTH the throttle and the brakes on simultaneously.
All drive by wire VW/Audis are setup this way.You've never done any serious performance driving, have you?
That's OK if you want to drive like a grandmother, but you may want to read up on the heel-and-toe technique [wikipedia.org] to find out why some of us would never settle for a car with the limitations you mentioned.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973228</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30976152</id>
	<title>Why not...?</title>
	<author>raehl</author>
	<datestamp>1264947420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I think you meant:</p><p>DON'T TRUST PROGRAMMERS</p><p>Computers are nearly infallible.</p><p>Programmers, not so much.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I think you meant : DO N'T TRUST PROGRAMMERSComputers are nearly infallible.Programmers , not so much .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think you meant:DON'T TRUST PROGRAMMERSComputers are nearly infallible.Programmers, not so much.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973210</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30977092</id>
	<title>Re:This is pure speculation, but my gut says ECM</title>
	<author>pongo000</author>
	<datestamp>1264956840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>This may well be speculative crap, but at least based on the anecdotal incidents I keep hearing about, this sounds like an ECM problem.</i></p><p>I, too, believe this to be so.  Why?  Because Toyota already tried once to distract the public from the real problem by proposing a silly 50-cent solution involving a clip to hold back the floor mat.  Only problem was that this turned out not to be the problem.  And so now, a 50-cent shim is the magic bullet?</p><p>In 1988, I had a GM Grand Am that stalled in the middle of the road.  Towed the car home, pulled off the intake (it was a throttle-body injection system [TBI]), and tried to recreate the problem.  After about the 10th try, the injectors fired, 100\% duty cycle, <i>and flooded the throttle body with fuel.</i>  The engine stalled.  I traced the problem back to a broken circuit trace on the PCM that would open and close when the board was stressed.</p><p>I suspect, too, that Toyota is very hesitant to proclaim a multi-hundred dollar ECM problem on several million vehicles.  Condensation on the accelerator assembly?  Give me a break.  If this was the case, it should be a simple matter of reaching your foot <i>under</i> the pedal and popping it free.</p><p>It will be very interesting to see what happens in the next few months...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This may well be speculative crap , but at least based on the anecdotal incidents I keep hearing about , this sounds like an ECM problem.I , too , believe this to be so .
Why ? Because Toyota already tried once to distract the public from the real problem by proposing a silly 50-cent solution involving a clip to hold back the floor mat .
Only problem was that this turned out not to be the problem .
And so now , a 50-cent shim is the magic bullet ? In 1988 , I had a GM Grand Am that stalled in the middle of the road .
Towed the car home , pulled off the intake ( it was a throttle-body injection system [ TBI ] ) , and tried to recreate the problem .
After about the 10th try , the injectors fired , 100 \ % duty cycle , and flooded the throttle body with fuel .
The engine stalled .
I traced the problem back to a broken circuit trace on the PCM that would open and close when the board was stressed.I suspect , too , that Toyota is very hesitant to proclaim a multi-hundred dollar ECM problem on several million vehicles .
Condensation on the accelerator assembly ?
Give me a break .
If this was the case , it should be a simple matter of reaching your foot under the pedal and popping it free.It will be very interesting to see what happens in the next few months.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This may well be speculative crap, but at least based on the anecdotal incidents I keep hearing about, this sounds like an ECM problem.I, too, believe this to be so.
Why?  Because Toyota already tried once to distract the public from the real problem by proposing a silly 50-cent solution involving a clip to hold back the floor mat.
Only problem was that this turned out not to be the problem.
And so now, a 50-cent shim is the magic bullet?In 1988, I had a GM Grand Am that stalled in the middle of the road.
Towed the car home, pulled off the intake (it was a throttle-body injection system [TBI]), and tried to recreate the problem.
After about the 10th try, the injectors fired, 100\% duty cycle, and flooded the throttle body with fuel.
The engine stalled.
I traced the problem back to a broken circuit trace on the PCM that would open and close when the board was stressed.I suspect, too, that Toyota is very hesitant to proclaim a multi-hundred dollar ECM problem on several million vehicles.
Condensation on the accelerator assembly?
Give me a break.
If this was the case, it should be a simple matter of reaching your foot under the pedal and popping it free.It will be very interesting to see what happens in the next few months...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974688</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975100</id>
	<title>redundancy</title>
	<author>smash</author>
	<datestamp>1264940880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>should have 3x or 4x redundancy (with a voting system) on critical systems like on mil-spec components.  a stuck throttle cable can have the same effect on non-fbw cars.  electronic can be MORE reliable if done PROPERLY.</htmltext>
<tokenext>should have 3x or 4x redundancy ( with a voting system ) on critical systems like on mil-spec components .
a stuck throttle cable can have the same effect on non-fbw cars .
electronic can be MORE reliable if done PROPERLY .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>should have 3x or 4x redundancy (with a voting system) on critical systems like on mil-spec components.
a stuck throttle cable can have the same effect on non-fbw cars.
electronic can be MORE reliable if done PROPERLY.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974882</id>
	<title>Re:Shift into neutral, are you kidding?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264939380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>What is with all these crazy people suggesting that you should shift into neutral? With a floored accelerator, that's a great way to completely destroy the engine. </i></p><p>Hey numbnuts, cars have had rev limiters for a long, long time. The engine isn't going to destroy itself.</p><p>Shifting into neutral is the correct thing to do, and apply the brakes.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What is with all these crazy people suggesting that you should shift into neutral ?
With a floored accelerator , that 's a great way to completely destroy the engine .
Hey numbnuts , cars have had rev limiters for a long , long time .
The engine is n't going to destroy itself.Shifting into neutral is the correct thing to do , and apply the brakes .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What is with all these crazy people suggesting that you should shift into neutral?
With a floored accelerator, that's a great way to completely destroy the engine.
Hey numbnuts, cars have had rev limiters for a long, long time.
The engine isn't going to destroy itself.Shifting into neutral is the correct thing to do, and apply the brakes.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974534</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30976598</id>
	<title>Toyota has really gone hill the last few years</title>
	<author>Scared Rabbit</author>
	<datestamp>1264951140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>My parents own an 04 or 05 Highlander, and I've got to say it's really been a dog.  I've always thought very highly of Toyota, but the Highlander has been enough to make me think twice about buying one anytime in the near future.<br> <br>

1st it's got a check engine light issue.  The charged my parents a few hundred dollars to reflash the ecu to take care of the issue.  Except it was back in less than a week.  Now they say it needs new catalytic converter(s) and will cost $1100+ to fix.  The car runs just fine however and doesn't leave an unburned gas smell like a non-functional catalytic converter would have so I'm not really sure if it's just them wanting to throw parts at the problem.  Further, the problem sometimes goes away after getting gas, leading me to believe that it might be related to the gas cap which is incredibly funking on the car.<br> <br>

2nd it's got an air pressure monitoring system that sometimes just trips and you can't untrip without going to the dealership.  That means anytime the air in the tire gets low, or the system thinks it is even if it isn't, you have to take a trip to the dealership because the method for reseting it doesn't actually work.  They supposedly fixed that last time it was in the shop, but I rather doubt it.<br> <br>

3rd the heater doesn't work.  More specifically, the heater doesn't work in the winter.  You absolutely cannot get the heater to come on in the winter.  However, if it's warm outside and you hit a bump it will come on regardless of where the dial is.  Supposedly they fixed that this summer at the shop, except I've driven it twice this winter and been unable to get the heater to come on.<br> <br>

4th when you step on the gas, it doesn't really do anything.  It's my understanding that this was one of Toyota's first cars that had the electric gas pedal.  And while I'm certainly glad it doesn't just start accelerating like some of them have done, it presents it's own form of danger.  You can floor the gas pedal, and it takes almost a full second for it to notice you've hit the gas.  It seems slightly less noticeable when you're making a less drastic change in position of the accelerator, but that may be because you're not really expecting it to change drastically then.  This is dangerous.  If I need to get the hell out of the way of something coming at me, I don't want to wait a full second for the car to figure out that I've pushed the gas pedal.  It does the same thing if I'm already driving and have to suddenly press the accelerator down to speed up.  You can literally mash the pedal to the floor and then lift your foot back up with absolutely no change in engine speed on the car!<br> <br>

While the first issue may not be an electronics issue, as we're not really sure, the second, third, and fourth issues certainly are.  In the hurry to make everything electronic, I think they've introduced some serious reliability issues into their vehicles, which is a shame because growing up I always thought of Toyotas as being of high quality and reliability.  I still wouldn't hesitate to buy an older Toyota, in fact I've been looking at getting a late 80's 4runner, but I don't think I'd buy a new Toyota right now even if I could afford to.</htmltext>
<tokenext>My parents own an 04 or 05 Highlander , and I 've got to say it 's really been a dog .
I 've always thought very highly of Toyota , but the Highlander has been enough to make me think twice about buying one anytime in the near future .
1st it 's got a check engine light issue .
The charged my parents a few hundred dollars to reflash the ecu to take care of the issue .
Except it was back in less than a week .
Now they say it needs new catalytic converter ( s ) and will cost $ 1100 + to fix .
The car runs just fine however and does n't leave an unburned gas smell like a non-functional catalytic converter would have so I 'm not really sure if it 's just them wanting to throw parts at the problem .
Further , the problem sometimes goes away after getting gas , leading me to believe that it might be related to the gas cap which is incredibly funking on the car .
2nd it 's got an air pressure monitoring system that sometimes just trips and you ca n't untrip without going to the dealership .
That means anytime the air in the tire gets low , or the system thinks it is even if it is n't , you have to take a trip to the dealership because the method for reseting it does n't actually work .
They supposedly fixed that last time it was in the shop , but I rather doubt it .
3rd the heater does n't work .
More specifically , the heater does n't work in the winter .
You absolutely can not get the heater to come on in the winter .
However , if it 's warm outside and you hit a bump it will come on regardless of where the dial is .
Supposedly they fixed that this summer at the shop , except I 've driven it twice this winter and been unable to get the heater to come on .
4th when you step on the gas , it does n't really do anything .
It 's my understanding that this was one of Toyota 's first cars that had the electric gas pedal .
And while I 'm certainly glad it does n't just start accelerating like some of them have done , it presents it 's own form of danger .
You can floor the gas pedal , and it takes almost a full second for it to notice you 've hit the gas .
It seems slightly less noticeable when you 're making a less drastic change in position of the accelerator , but that may be because you 're not really expecting it to change drastically then .
This is dangerous .
If I need to get the hell out of the way of something coming at me , I do n't want to wait a full second for the car to figure out that I 've pushed the gas pedal .
It does the same thing if I 'm already driving and have to suddenly press the accelerator down to speed up .
You can literally mash the pedal to the floor and then lift your foot back up with absolutely no change in engine speed on the car !
While the first issue may not be an electronics issue , as we 're not really sure , the second , third , and fourth issues certainly are .
In the hurry to make everything electronic , I think they 've introduced some serious reliability issues into their vehicles , which is a shame because growing up I always thought of Toyotas as being of high quality and reliability .
I still would n't hesitate to buy an older Toyota , in fact I 've been looking at getting a late 80 's 4runner , but I do n't think I 'd buy a new Toyota right now even if I could afford to .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My parents own an 04 or 05 Highlander, and I've got to say it's really been a dog.
I've always thought very highly of Toyota, but the Highlander has been enough to make me think twice about buying one anytime in the near future.
1st it's got a check engine light issue.
The charged my parents a few hundred dollars to reflash the ecu to take care of the issue.
Except it was back in less than a week.
Now they say it needs new catalytic converter(s) and will cost $1100+ to fix.
The car runs just fine however and doesn't leave an unburned gas smell like a non-functional catalytic converter would have so I'm not really sure if it's just them wanting to throw parts at the problem.
Further, the problem sometimes goes away after getting gas, leading me to believe that it might be related to the gas cap which is incredibly funking on the car.
2nd it's got an air pressure monitoring system that sometimes just trips and you can't untrip without going to the dealership.
That means anytime the air in the tire gets low, or the system thinks it is even if it isn't, you have to take a trip to the dealership because the method for reseting it doesn't actually work.
They supposedly fixed that last time it was in the shop, but I rather doubt it.
3rd the heater doesn't work.
More specifically, the heater doesn't work in the winter.
You absolutely cannot get the heater to come on in the winter.
However, if it's warm outside and you hit a bump it will come on regardless of where the dial is.
Supposedly they fixed that this summer at the shop, except I've driven it twice this winter and been unable to get the heater to come on.
4th when you step on the gas, it doesn't really do anything.
It's my understanding that this was one of Toyota's first cars that had the electric gas pedal.
And while I'm certainly glad it doesn't just start accelerating like some of them have done, it presents it's own form of danger.
You can floor the gas pedal, and it takes almost a full second for it to notice you've hit the gas.
It seems slightly less noticeable when you're making a less drastic change in position of the accelerator, but that may be because you're not really expecting it to change drastically then.
This is dangerous.
If I need to get the hell out of the way of something coming at me, I don't want to wait a full second for the car to figure out that I've pushed the gas pedal.
It does the same thing if I'm already driving and have to suddenly press the accelerator down to speed up.
You can literally mash the pedal to the floor and then lift your foot back up with absolutely no change in engine speed on the car!
While the first issue may not be an electronics issue, as we're not really sure, the second, third, and fourth issues certainly are.
In the hurry to make everything electronic, I think they've introduced some serious reliability issues into their vehicles, which is a shame because growing up I always thought of Toyotas as being of high quality and reliability.
I still wouldn't hesitate to buy an older Toyota, in fact I've been looking at getting a late 80's 4runner, but I don't think I'd buy a new Toyota right now even if I could afford to.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975712</id>
	<title>Re:I design computer hardware and software...</title>
	<author>furbyhater</author>
	<datestamp>1264944600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>That's why I'm always a bit nervous crossing the road!</htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's why I 'm always a bit nervous crossing the road !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's why I'm always a bit nervous crossing the road!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973584</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973530</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264931520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
The AutoBlog article is lame. You have to watch a terrible video, shot with a hand-held camcorder.  The first two minutes should be skipped; it's some idiot blithering, who then turns it over to an "expert" who shows the pedal unit. The pedal unit is hand-held, so you rarely get a really clear image of the thing.
</p><p>
The "expert" claims that a steel pin is binding in a brass bushing.  He doesn't know why. There's no discussion of tolerances or lubrication problems, or why a function that critical didn't get a ball bearing.   The pedal apparently
moves a magnet near some sensor, but there's no discussion of what kind of sensor, whether there's any redundancy, or
what happens if your steel-toed boots are magnetized.
</p><p>
"Car expert" - ha.
</p><p>
Incidentally, the argument against cutting the throttle when the brake is applied is that then people won't be able to do a jackrabbit start by running up the engine with the brakes on, and the 0-60 time will suffer.  Really. There's talk of a software fix that will cut the throttle if the brakes are applied above 5MPH or so.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The AutoBlog article is lame .
You have to watch a terrible video , shot with a hand-held camcorder .
The first two minutes should be skipped ; it 's some idiot blithering , who then turns it over to an " expert " who shows the pedal unit .
The pedal unit is hand-held , so you rarely get a really clear image of the thing .
The " expert " claims that a steel pin is binding in a brass bushing .
He does n't know why .
There 's no discussion of tolerances or lubrication problems , or why a function that critical did n't get a ball bearing .
The pedal apparently moves a magnet near some sensor , but there 's no discussion of what kind of sensor , whether there 's any redundancy , or what happens if your steel-toed boots are magnetized .
" Car expert " - ha .
Incidentally , the argument against cutting the throttle when the brake is applied is that then people wo n't be able to do a jackrabbit start by running up the engine with the brakes on , and the 0-60 time will suffer .
Really. There 's talk of a software fix that will cut the throttle if the brakes are applied above 5MPH or so .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
The AutoBlog article is lame.
You have to watch a terrible video, shot with a hand-held camcorder.
The first two minutes should be skipped; it's some idiot blithering, who then turns it over to an "expert" who shows the pedal unit.
The pedal unit is hand-held, so you rarely get a really clear image of the thing.
The "expert" claims that a steel pin is binding in a brass bushing.
He doesn't know why.
There's no discussion of tolerances or lubrication problems, or why a function that critical didn't get a ball bearing.
The pedal apparently
moves a magnet near some sensor, but there's no discussion of what kind of sensor, whether there's any redundancy, or
what happens if your steel-toed boots are magnetized.
"Car expert" - ha.
Incidentally, the argument against cutting the throttle when the brake is applied is that then people won't be able to do a jackrabbit start by running up the engine with the brakes on, and the 0-60 time will suffer.
Really. There's talk of a software fix that will cut the throttle if the brakes are applied above 5MPH or so.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973228</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975272</id>
	<title>Re:missing option Manual Transmission</title>
	<author>Neoprofin</author>
	<datestamp>1264941900000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You may want to watch the advertising. Automatic transmissions are slowly but surely slipping into European manufacturers. Right now it's a "luxury feature" yes, but that's exactly how it started in the US as well. As automatics continue to advance in fuel economy and decrease in cost (both up front and through reduced maintenance) we might see a time soon enough when manuals are a minority.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You may want to watch the advertising .
Automatic transmissions are slowly but surely slipping into European manufacturers .
Right now it 's a " luxury feature " yes , but that 's exactly how it started in the US as well .
As automatics continue to advance in fuel economy and decrease in cost ( both up front and through reduced maintenance ) we might see a time soon enough when manuals are a minority .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You may want to watch the advertising.
Automatic transmissions are slowly but surely slipping into European manufacturers.
Right now it's a "luxury feature" yes, but that's exactly how it started in the US as well.
As automatics continue to advance in fuel economy and decrease in cost (both up front and through reduced maintenance) we might see a time soon enough when manuals are a minority.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974192</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30976000</id>
	<title>Re:missing option Manual Transmission</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264946400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Germany also has real driver's tests. We've built a society where in far too many cases a car is assumed to be required to function, and thus we make it so any idiot from age 16 up can drive.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Germany also has real driver 's tests .
We 've built a society where in far too many cases a car is assumed to be required to function , and thus we make it so any idiot from age 16 up can drive .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Germany also has real driver's tests.
We've built a society where in far too many cases a car is assumed to be required to function, and thus we make it so any idiot from age 16 up can drive.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974192</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973422</id>
	<title>Camry Hybrid &amp; drive by wire</title>
	<author>linuxtelephony</author>
	<datestamp>1264931040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Offtopic</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I had to think long and hard before buying the Camry Hybrid because of all the drive-by-wire. Finally I decided to give it a go and I am glad I did. I get plenty of room in the cabin (not so much in the trunk though), and consistently get 30+ mpg around town and up to 40+ on highway trips (averaging 36-38 across West Texas at 80 mpg).</p><p>Some observations of mine:<br>- I have a "gear lever" to shift, but I'm pretty sure it's just there for "feel" and it's all electronic; if an electrical problem prevented the car from going into neutral then it wouldn't matter if it were "push button" or the gear lever like I have, it's still electronic.<br>- the emergency brake is mechanical - and that's your best bet if all else fails (assuming you aren't already going so fast as to make the car uncontrollable by locking the rear wheels<br>- It is not unusual for me to pull into a parking place, put the car into park, be totally stopped, release the brake, and (while totally still) push the button to turn off the car and have the car jump forward slightly; i suspect it has to do with getting a mechanical "break" in the transmission to engage and by slightly moving the car something akin to a tooth is able to engage the appropriate gear. I'm not able to reproduce on demand so I've not taken the car in for this.<br>- I have floor mats that are supposed to be held in place by hooks but the hooks keep coming out and floor mat moves all around. This is the factor carpeted floor, not the all season one, and i've never had it cause problems with the accelerator.<br>- i've not been able to reproduce the launching triggered by the cruise control as reported by <a href="http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1430048&amp;cid=29973870" title="slashdot.org">SteveWoz</a> [slashdot.org], but that may be prius specific and/or speed related (i haven't been anywhere to try at 85 mph yet, speed limits around here stop at 75).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I had to think long and hard before buying the Camry Hybrid because of all the drive-by-wire .
Finally I decided to give it a go and I am glad I did .
I get plenty of room in the cabin ( not so much in the trunk though ) , and consistently get 30 + mpg around town and up to 40 + on highway trips ( averaging 36-38 across West Texas at 80 mpg ) .Some observations of mine : - I have a " gear lever " to shift , but I 'm pretty sure it 's just there for " feel " and it 's all electronic ; if an electrical problem prevented the car from going into neutral then it would n't matter if it were " push button " or the gear lever like I have , it 's still electronic.- the emergency brake is mechanical - and that 's your best bet if all else fails ( assuming you are n't already going so fast as to make the car uncontrollable by locking the rear wheels- It is not unusual for me to pull into a parking place , put the car into park , be totally stopped , release the brake , and ( while totally still ) push the button to turn off the car and have the car jump forward slightly ; i suspect it has to do with getting a mechanical " break " in the transmission to engage and by slightly moving the car something akin to a tooth is able to engage the appropriate gear .
I 'm not able to reproduce on demand so I 've not taken the car in for this.- I have floor mats that are supposed to be held in place by hooks but the hooks keep coming out and floor mat moves all around .
This is the factor carpeted floor , not the all season one , and i 've never had it cause problems with the accelerator.- i 've not been able to reproduce the launching triggered by the cruise control as reported by SteveWoz [ slashdot.org ] , but that may be prius specific and/or speed related ( i have n't been anywhere to try at 85 mph yet , speed limits around here stop at 75 ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I had to think long and hard before buying the Camry Hybrid because of all the drive-by-wire.
Finally I decided to give it a go and I am glad I did.
I get plenty of room in the cabin (not so much in the trunk though), and consistently get 30+ mpg around town and up to 40+ on highway trips (averaging 36-38 across West Texas at 80 mpg).Some observations of mine:- I have a "gear lever" to shift, but I'm pretty sure it's just there for "feel" and it's all electronic; if an electrical problem prevented the car from going into neutral then it wouldn't matter if it were "push button" or the gear lever like I have, it's still electronic.- the emergency brake is mechanical - and that's your best bet if all else fails (assuming you aren't already going so fast as to make the car uncontrollable by locking the rear wheels- It is not unusual for me to pull into a parking place, put the car into park, be totally stopped, release the brake, and (while totally still) push the button to turn off the car and have the car jump forward slightly; i suspect it has to do with getting a mechanical "break" in the transmission to engage and by slightly moving the car something akin to a tooth is able to engage the appropriate gear.
I'm not able to reproduce on demand so I've not taken the car in for this.- I have floor mats that are supposed to be held in place by hooks but the hooks keep coming out and floor mat moves all around.
This is the factor carpeted floor, not the all season one, and i've never had it cause problems with the accelerator.- i've not been able to reproduce the launching triggered by the cruise control as reported by SteveWoz [slashdot.org], but that may be prius specific and/or speed related (i haven't been anywhere to try at 85 mph yet, speed limits around here stop at 75).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30996752</id>
	<title>Terrible karma?</title>
	<author>zoomshorts</author>
	<datestamp>1265131320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>-1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> I posted this on Sunday January 31, @06:12PM (#30974970)</p><p>I suspect a common design to be involved in these failures. Floormats are not the cause. I believe all these vehicles can have cruise control added as an option, and I think that the attachment method or Computer control of the cruise control is at fault. The onboard computer thinks there is cruise control on the vehicle and begins to add gas to keep the speed the same, with or without cruise control actually being installed on the automobile. It happens randomly to too many models.</p><p>WAY before you putz's quoted Woz. Obviously you are not the geeks you think you are.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I posted this on Sunday January 31 , @ 06 : 12PM ( # 30974970 ) I suspect a common design to be involved in these failures .
Floormats are not the cause .
I believe all these vehicles can have cruise control added as an option , and I think that the attachment method or Computer control of the cruise control is at fault .
The onboard computer thinks there is cruise control on the vehicle and begins to add gas to keep the speed the same , with or without cruise control actually being installed on the automobile .
It happens randomly to too many models.WAY before you putz 's quoted Woz .
Obviously you are not the geeks you think you are .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> I posted this on Sunday January 31, @06:12PM (#30974970)I suspect a common design to be involved in these failures.
Floormats are not the cause.
I believe all these vehicles can have cruise control added as an option, and I think that the attachment method or Computer control of the cruise control is at fault.
The onboard computer thinks there is cruise control on the vehicle and begins to add gas to keep the speed the same, with or without cruise control actually being installed on the automobile.
It happens randomly to too many models.WAY before you putz's quoted Woz.
Obviously you are not the geeks you think you are.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30976364</id>
	<title>Re:missing option Manual Transmission</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264949160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In the Seattle area, we have this thing called "traffic." Do you know how quickly you burn through a clutch on I-5 during rush hour? And how much of a pain in the ass it is to constantly shift?</p><p>Not having to replace my clutch yet has made up for the additional cost of the Automatic transmission already, not being a giant pain-in-the-ass while in stop-and-go traffic is just a bonus.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In the Seattle area , we have this thing called " traffic .
" Do you know how quickly you burn through a clutch on I-5 during rush hour ?
And how much of a pain in the ass it is to constantly shift ? Not having to replace my clutch yet has made up for the additional cost of the Automatic transmission already , not being a giant pain-in-the-ass while in stop-and-go traffic is just a bonus .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In the Seattle area, we have this thing called "traffic.
" Do you know how quickly you burn through a clutch on I-5 during rush hour?
And how much of a pain in the ass it is to constantly shift?Not having to replace my clutch yet has made up for the additional cost of the Automatic transmission already, not being a giant pain-in-the-ass while in stop-and-go traffic is just a bonus.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974192</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30978522</id>
	<title>Re:Ford 'cruise control terror driver' excellent l</title>
	<author>Pastis</author>
	<datestamp>1265017380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What about implementing an emergency fuel stop ?</p><p>Something that stops gaz or oxygen to enter the engine.</p><p>Something that is very simple, limited to one function and hopefully as fail safe as possible.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What about implementing an emergency fuel stop ? Something that stops gaz or oxygen to enter the engine.Something that is very simple , limited to one function and hopefully as fail safe as possible .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What about implementing an emergency fuel stop ?Something that stops gaz or oxygen to enter the engine.Something that is very simple, limited to one function and hopefully as fail safe as possible.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974502</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30977492</id>
	<title>What does this have to do with electronics?</title>
	<author>digitalloving</author>
	<datestamp>1264960740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The story says there are increased safety issues with electronic parts in cars.  The Toyota accelerator pedal issue was mechanical.  An electrical part is not inherently more error prone.  The author of the story is just being sensationalistic and playing on peoples' fear of technology.  DID YOU KNOW THEY USE ELECTRONIC CONTROLS IN PLANES!!! TONIGHT AT 10!</htmltext>
<tokenext>The story says there are increased safety issues with electronic parts in cars .
The Toyota accelerator pedal issue was mechanical .
An electrical part is not inherently more error prone .
The author of the story is just being sensationalistic and playing on peoples ' fear of technology .
DID YOU KNOW THEY USE ELECTRONIC CONTROLS IN PLANES ! ! !
TONIGHT AT 10 !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The story says there are increased safety issues with electronic parts in cars.
The Toyota accelerator pedal issue was mechanical.
An electrical part is not inherently more error prone.
The author of the story is just being sensationalistic and playing on peoples' fear of technology.
DID YOU KNOW THEY USE ELECTRONIC CONTROLS IN PLANES!!!
TONIGHT AT 10!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.31002154</id>
	<title>Re:Ford 'cruise control terror driver' excellent l</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265110320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And as numerous sources have shown over and over, PRESSING ON THE BRAKES worked. Well, pressing really hard, sure, but still, it's really rocket science?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And as numerous sources have shown over and over , PRESSING ON THE BRAKES worked .
Well , pressing really hard , sure , but still , it 's really rocket science ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And as numerous sources have shown over and over, PRESSING ON THE BRAKES worked.
Well, pressing really hard, sure, but still, it's really rocket science?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974502</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975756</id>
	<title>Re:I sat in a Prius as a driver once.</title>
	<author>raygundan</author>
	<datestamp>1264944960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I would have guessed you were a very young driver without much exposure to cars, had you not mentioned 30 years of driving experience.  The american-made pickup truck we previous to our current cars had a parking brake pedal.  These aren't uncommon, and the pedal location is standard. And the Prius?  It has a huge "ON" button above the keyhole.  Key in, push button.  And if you managed to find the keyhole, you found the button and its obvious label.  How is this unnecessarily complex?  I respect you for taking the time to look up what you didn't understand, but I'm a little baffled that you needed to.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I would have guessed you were a very young driver without much exposure to cars , had you not mentioned 30 years of driving experience .
The american-made pickup truck we previous to our current cars had a parking brake pedal .
These are n't uncommon , and the pedal location is standard .
And the Prius ?
It has a huge " ON " button above the keyhole .
Key in , push button .
And if you managed to find the keyhole , you found the button and its obvious label .
How is this unnecessarily complex ?
I respect you for taking the time to look up what you did n't understand , but I 'm a little baffled that you needed to .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I would have guessed you were a very young driver without much exposure to cars, had you not mentioned 30 years of driving experience.
The american-made pickup truck we previous to our current cars had a parking brake pedal.
These aren't uncommon, and the pedal location is standard.
And the Prius?
It has a huge "ON" button above the keyhole.
Key in, push button.
And if you managed to find the keyhole, you found the button and its obvious label.
How is this unnecessarily complex?
I respect you for taking the time to look up what you didn't understand, but I'm a little baffled that you needed to.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973960</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30978282</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>CaptnMArk</author>
	<datestamp>1265057340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt;There is still no excuse for Toyota not coding the ECU to cut throttle when it senses that the driver has BOTH the throttle and the brakes on simultaneously. All drive by wire VW/Audis are setup this way.</p><p>I really hope this happens only partially and under hard braking.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; There is still no excuse for Toyota not coding the ECU to cut throttle when it senses that the driver has BOTH the throttle and the brakes on simultaneously .
All drive by wire VW/Audis are setup this way.I really hope this happens only partially and under hard braking .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt;There is still no excuse for Toyota not coding the ECU to cut throttle when it senses that the driver has BOTH the throttle and the brakes on simultaneously.
All drive by wire VW/Audis are setup this way.I really hope this happens only partially and under hard braking.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973228</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30977292</id>
	<title>Re:missing option Manual Transmission</title>
	<author>ageoffri</author>
	<datestamp>1264958700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>It is a great safety feature that doesn't allow the ignition to be turned off while an automatic is in gear.  Nearly every car out there has power steering, if you turn off the ignition at best you have lost the power steering and some cars lock the steering wheel.  So for control issues it is far better to not turn off the car.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It is a great safety feature that does n't allow the ignition to be turned off while an automatic is in gear .
Nearly every car out there has power steering , if you turn off the ignition at best you have lost the power steering and some cars lock the steering wheel .
So for control issues it is far better to not turn off the car .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is a great safety feature that doesn't allow the ignition to be turned off while an automatic is in gear.
Nearly every car out there has power steering, if you turn off the ignition at best you have lost the power steering and some cars lock the steering wheel.
So for control issues it is far better to not turn off the car.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975214</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973824</id>
	<title>EMP guns</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264933140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I wonder if the emp guns the police are trying to have constructed will make it worse when used?</htmltext>
<tokenext>I wonder if the emp guns the police are trying to have constructed will make it worse when used ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I wonder if the emp guns the police are trying to have constructed will make it worse when used?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973748</id>
	<title>Re:I design computer hardware and software...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264932600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Remind me not to hire you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Remind me not to hire you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Remind me not to hire you.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973210</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30982906</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>albedoa</author>
	<datestamp>1265046780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Can you or anyone link to one report that claims that a car was unable to shift to neutral? A lot of people have said it here, but it's the first I've heard of it.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Can you or anyone link to one report that claims that a car was unable to shift to neutral ?
A lot of people have said it here , but it 's the first I 've heard of it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Can you or anyone link to one report that claims that a car was unable to shift to neutral?
A lot of people have said it here, but it's the first I've heard of it.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973376</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973274</id>
	<title>GM uses electronic gas pedals without problems</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264930260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>GM uses electronic gas pedals for quite some time at least in its Delphi platform. For instance, Opel Vectra C and derivatives, Astra G/H and derivatives,<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... Never any problems with them so far for several years. Automatic transmission from Aisin-Warner, a Toyota daughter company, on the other hand is causing many problems, at least in Germany. Whatever is going on in Toyota, it is not about quality.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>GM uses electronic gas pedals for quite some time at least in its Delphi platform .
For instance , Opel Vectra C and derivatives , Astra G/H and derivatives , ... Never any problems with them so far for several years .
Automatic transmission from Aisin-Warner , a Toyota daughter company , on the other hand is causing many problems , at least in Germany .
Whatever is going on in Toyota , it is not about quality .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>GM uses electronic gas pedals for quite some time at least in its Delphi platform.
For instance, Opel Vectra C and derivatives, Astra G/H and derivatives, ... Never any problems with them so far for several years.
Automatic transmission from Aisin-Warner, a Toyota daughter company, on the other hand is causing many problems, at least in Germany.
Whatever is going on in Toyota, it is not about quality.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974196</id>
	<title>Re:missing option Manual Transmission</title>
	<author>Waffle Iron</author>
	<datestamp>1264934940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>If your throttle got stuck you could hit the clutch pedal and cut the power to the transmission.</p></div><p>Yeah, but I bet that for every person saved by being able to use the clutch to cut power, dozens more have been killed because driving a manual safely requires the dedicated use of all four limbs.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>If your throttle got stuck you could hit the clutch pedal and cut the power to the transmission.Yeah , but I bet that for every person saved by being able to use the clutch to cut power , dozens more have been killed because driving a manual safely requires the dedicated use of all four limbs .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If your throttle got stuck you could hit the clutch pedal and cut the power to the transmission.Yeah, but I bet that for every person saved by being able to use the clutch to cut power, dozens more have been killed because driving a manual safely requires the dedicated use of all four limbs.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973398</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973228</id>
	<title>Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>Fahrvergnuugen</author>
	<datestamp>1264930020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p> <a href="http://www.autoblog.com/2010/01/29/video-in-depth-look-at-toyotas-sticky-accelerator/" title="autoblog.com">According to AutoBlog</a> [autoblog.com], the problem with these Toyotas is a mechanical part in the drive by wire pedal assembly (and so it's not really an issue with the car being drive by wire). The pivot point that the pedal rotates on has a bushing that is apparently wearing out and causing the pedal stick. I'm a little skeptical as it seems much more plausible that it would be an electrical (or software) gremlin, but that's apparently what they're blaming it on.</p><p>There is still no excuse for Toyota not coding the ECU to cut throttle when it senses that the driver has BOTH the throttle and the brakes on simultaneously. All drive by wire VW/Audis are setup this way.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>According to AutoBlog [ autoblog.com ] , the problem with these Toyotas is a mechanical part in the drive by wire pedal assembly ( and so it 's not really an issue with the car being drive by wire ) .
The pivot point that the pedal rotates on has a bushing that is apparently wearing out and causing the pedal stick .
I 'm a little skeptical as it seems much more plausible that it would be an electrical ( or software ) gremlin , but that 's apparently what they 're blaming it on.There is still no excuse for Toyota not coding the ECU to cut throttle when it senses that the driver has BOTH the throttle and the brakes on simultaneously .
All drive by wire VW/Audis are setup this way .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> According to AutoBlog [autoblog.com], the problem with these Toyotas is a mechanical part in the drive by wire pedal assembly (and so it's not really an issue with the car being drive by wire).
The pivot point that the pedal rotates on has a bushing that is apparently wearing out and causing the pedal stick.
I'm a little skeptical as it seems much more plausible that it would be an electrical (or software) gremlin, but that's apparently what they're blaming it on.There is still no excuse for Toyota not coding the ECU to cut throttle when it senses that the driver has BOTH the throttle and the brakes on simultaneously.
All drive by wire VW/Audis are setup this way.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974962</id>
	<title>Re:I design computer hardware and software...</title>
	<author>Grishnakh</author>
	<datestamp>1264939860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At least an Airbus is a $100 million dollar aircraft, so it's much more likely they did some decent design and testing, plus there's a lot of redundancy in those fly-by-wire aircraft.  Your car, OTOH, is designed to be as CHEAP to manufacture as possible.  There's no redundancy there.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At least an Airbus is a $ 100 million dollar aircraft , so it 's much more likely they did some decent design and testing , plus there 's a lot of redundancy in those fly-by-wire aircraft .
Your car , OTOH , is designed to be as CHEAP to manufacture as possible .
There 's no redundancy there .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At least an Airbus is a $100 million dollar aircraft, so it's much more likely they did some decent design and testing, plus there's a lot of redundancy in those fly-by-wire aircraft.
Your car, OTOH, is designed to be as CHEAP to manufacture as possible.
There's no redundancy there.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973584</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973960</id>
	<title>I sat in a Prius as a driver once.</title>
	<author>AbRASiON</author>
	<datestamp>1264933740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Un-necessarily complex, I spent 5 to 10 minutes reading the manual and could NOT figure out how to make it move.<br>I'm not joking, this was a fleet car for work and I simply couldn't make it move, at all.  I'm a geek but it just didn't make any sense to me, engine was going but it wouldn't move.<br>Turns out they use a 'pedal based' handbrake (Americans might call it park brake?) I've never encountered this in 30 years previously, long story short I ended up speaking to the fleet management people and ended up with a Ford stationwagon ( "It just works" ) for the morning, didn't find out about the pedal and how it works until I got back from the trip.   (FWIW I really did want to try the Prius too)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Un-necessarily complex , I spent 5 to 10 minutes reading the manual and could NOT figure out how to make it move.I 'm not joking , this was a fleet car for work and I simply could n't make it move , at all .
I 'm a geek but it just did n't make any sense to me , engine was going but it would n't move.Turns out they use a 'pedal based ' handbrake ( Americans might call it park brake ?
) I 've never encountered this in 30 years previously , long story short I ended up speaking to the fleet management people and ended up with a Ford stationwagon ( " It just works " ) for the morning , did n't find out about the pedal and how it works until I got back from the trip .
( FWIW I really did want to try the Prius too )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Un-necessarily complex, I spent 5 to 10 minutes reading the manual and could NOT figure out how to make it move.I'm not joking, this was a fleet car for work and I simply couldn't make it move, at all.
I'm a geek but it just didn't make any sense to me, engine was going but it wouldn't move.Turns out they use a 'pedal based' handbrake (Americans might call it park brake?
) I've never encountered this in 30 years previously, long story short I ended up speaking to the fleet management people and ended up with a Ford stationwagon ( "It just works" ) for the morning, didn't find out about the pedal and how it works until I got back from the trip.
(FWIW I really did want to try the Prius too)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973758</id>
	<title>KISS</title>
	<author>davidwr</author>
	<datestamp>1264932660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Keep it simple, stupid.</p><p>This is a good rule to follow when it comes to designing machines that can kill.</p><p>I want my car's safety-related electronics to be so simple anyone with the relevant expertise can understand a given subsystem, and anyone with the relevant expertise can understand how they interact with each other.  In other words, I want predictable behavior:  Given scenario A, the car will behave in manner A', given scenario B, it will behave in manner B', with any outcomes that aren't expected by most drivers, such as an engine shutdown if the temperature sensor reaches X degrees for Y seconds, well-documented and the driver educated how to react in such a circumstance.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Keep it simple , stupid.This is a good rule to follow when it comes to designing machines that can kill.I want my car 's safety-related electronics to be so simple anyone with the relevant expertise can understand a given subsystem , and anyone with the relevant expertise can understand how they interact with each other .
In other words , I want predictable behavior : Given scenario A , the car will behave in manner A ' , given scenario B , it will behave in manner B ' , with any outcomes that are n't expected by most drivers , such as an engine shutdown if the temperature sensor reaches X degrees for Y seconds , well-documented and the driver educated how to react in such a circumstance .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Keep it simple, stupid.This is a good rule to follow when it comes to designing machines that can kill.I want my car's safety-related electronics to be so simple anyone with the relevant expertise can understand a given subsystem, and anyone with the relevant expertise can understand how they interact with each other.
In other words, I want predictable behavior:  Given scenario A, the car will behave in manner A', given scenario B, it will behave in manner B', with any outcomes that aren't expected by most drivers, such as an engine shutdown if the temperature sensor reaches X degrees for Y seconds, well-documented and the driver educated how to react in such a circumstance.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30977612</id>
	<title>Re:Growing pains don't mean you should stop growin</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264961820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It may be simply due to what my day job is, but what about putting a strain gage on the gas pedal beam? That way you have a redundant indication that pressure is actually being applied to the pedal. If there's no pressure to the pedal for x time, and at the end of that period the indicated pedal position is not "coast/idle", then the system should immediately revert to an alternate control law that uses pedal pressure instead of pedal position for control input. There should also be a voice announcement to execute safe stopping ASAP. When done properly, this can be quite cheap. A strain gage/connecting cable assembly is all done on a single piece of substrate, and in automotive quantities can cost $0.50 apiece. The connector and amp/digitizer can be had in the accelerator pedal sensor assembly for another $1.00 or so. Not very hard to do.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It may be simply due to what my day job is , but what about putting a strain gage on the gas pedal beam ?
That way you have a redundant indication that pressure is actually being applied to the pedal .
If there 's no pressure to the pedal for x time , and at the end of that period the indicated pedal position is not " coast/idle " , then the system should immediately revert to an alternate control law that uses pedal pressure instead of pedal position for control input .
There should also be a voice announcement to execute safe stopping ASAP .
When done properly , this can be quite cheap .
A strain gage/connecting cable assembly is all done on a single piece of substrate , and in automotive quantities can cost $ 0.50 apiece .
The connector and amp/digitizer can be had in the accelerator pedal sensor assembly for another $ 1.00 or so .
Not very hard to do .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It may be simply due to what my day job is, but what about putting a strain gage on the gas pedal beam?
That way you have a redundant indication that pressure is actually being applied to the pedal.
If there's no pressure to the pedal for x time, and at the end of that period the indicated pedal position is not "coast/idle", then the system should immediately revert to an alternate control law that uses pedal pressure instead of pedal position for control input.
There should also be a voice announcement to execute safe stopping ASAP.
When done properly, this can be quite cheap.
A strain gage/connecting cable assembly is all done on a single piece of substrate, and in automotive quantities can cost $0.50 apiece.
The connector and amp/digitizer can be had in the accelerator pedal sensor assembly for another $1.00 or so.
Not very hard to do.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973318</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30978324</id>
	<title>No electronics for vital sysyems</title>
	<author>Askmum</author>
	<datestamp>1265057880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Everybody who has ever owned a hifi set knows this problem. Eventually dust will get the better of the volume knob and it will start to behave erraticaly or will give out noise while using it. That's a ground rule of every potentiometer.
And now they want to use these things with cars. After the impossible-to-exchange lightbulbs, the next big cock-up is the electronics.
Well, just look at Renault and you'll know where this will end up.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Everybody who has ever owned a hifi set knows this problem .
Eventually dust will get the better of the volume knob and it will start to behave erraticaly or will give out noise while using it .
That 's a ground rule of every potentiometer .
And now they want to use these things with cars .
After the impossible-to-exchange lightbulbs , the next big cock-up is the electronics .
Well , just look at Renault and you 'll know where this will end up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Everybody who has ever owned a hifi set knows this problem.
Eventually dust will get the better of the volume knob and it will start to behave erraticaly or will give out noise while using it.
That's a ground rule of every potentiometer.
And now they want to use these things with cars.
After the impossible-to-exchange lightbulbs, the next big cock-up is the electronics.
Well, just look at Renault and you'll know where this will end up.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30976690</id>
	<title>Re:I sat in a Prius as a driver once.</title>
	<author>AaronW</author>
	<datestamp>1264952220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Pedal based parking brakes have been around forever. The 1966 Pontiac Tempest LeMans I learned to drive on had one. That car was a death trap compared to today's cars. I've had a stuck throttle cable on that car as well as two other cars I've owned, and those cars were purely mechanical. I drove a rental Dodge Charger in November where the anti-lock brakes failed. Does that make me think my current Toyota Prius is a death trap? No more than any other car. If anything, it's the safest car I've ever owned by far. The 1966 Pontiac is a death trap by today's standards. It only has lap belts (which were optional at the time), the factory brakes faded like crazy and it lacked a dual brake cylinder, so if there were a brake failure all four brakes would fail.</p><p>If you've never encountered a pedal parking brake before then you haven't driven many cars. My parent's Mercury Sables also had parking pedals.</p><p>As for driving a Prius, it's not much different than driving any other car. Other than the shifter having fewer positions (and a dedicated park button) and a power button it drives like any other car. If anything, I had a little re-learning to do when I went to the Dodge Charger since I got so used to my Prius automatically putting itself into park when I turn it off.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Pedal based parking brakes have been around forever .
The 1966 Pontiac Tempest LeMans I learned to drive on had one .
That car was a death trap compared to today 's cars .
I 've had a stuck throttle cable on that car as well as two other cars I 've owned , and those cars were purely mechanical .
I drove a rental Dodge Charger in November where the anti-lock brakes failed .
Does that make me think my current Toyota Prius is a death trap ?
No more than any other car .
If anything , it 's the safest car I 've ever owned by far .
The 1966 Pontiac is a death trap by today 's standards .
It only has lap belts ( which were optional at the time ) , the factory brakes faded like crazy and it lacked a dual brake cylinder , so if there were a brake failure all four brakes would fail.If you 've never encountered a pedal parking brake before then you have n't driven many cars .
My parent 's Mercury Sables also had parking pedals.As for driving a Prius , it 's not much different than driving any other car .
Other than the shifter having fewer positions ( and a dedicated park button ) and a power button it drives like any other car .
If anything , I had a little re-learning to do when I went to the Dodge Charger since I got so used to my Prius automatically putting itself into park when I turn it off .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Pedal based parking brakes have been around forever.
The 1966 Pontiac Tempest LeMans I learned to drive on had one.
That car was a death trap compared to today's cars.
I've had a stuck throttle cable on that car as well as two other cars I've owned, and those cars were purely mechanical.
I drove a rental Dodge Charger in November where the anti-lock brakes failed.
Does that make me think my current Toyota Prius is a death trap?
No more than any other car.
If anything, it's the safest car I've ever owned by far.
The 1966 Pontiac is a death trap by today's standards.
It only has lap belts (which were optional at the time), the factory brakes faded like crazy and it lacked a dual brake cylinder, so if there were a brake failure all four brakes would fail.If you've never encountered a pedal parking brake before then you haven't driven many cars.
My parent's Mercury Sables also had parking pedals.As for driving a Prius, it's not much different than driving any other car.
Other than the shifter having fewer positions (and a dedicated park button) and a power button it drives like any other car.
If anything, I had a little re-learning to do when I went to the Dodge Charger since I got so used to my Prius automatically putting itself into park when I turn it off.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973960</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30982880</id>
	<title>Re:Ford 'cruise control terror driver' excellent l</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265046660000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I was under the impression all he had to do was hold the ignition button down for 3-5 seconds and it would turn off, like a desktop computer.  (Keep in mind, I do NOT expect him to know this)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I was under the impression all he had to do was hold the ignition button down for 3-5 seconds and it would turn off , like a desktop computer .
( Keep in mind , I do NOT expect him to know this )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I was under the impression all he had to do was hold the ignition button down for 3-5 seconds and it would turn off, like a desktop computer.
(Keep in mind, I do NOT expect him to know this)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974502</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973226</id>
	<title>Misleading story...</title>
	<author>CyberBill</author>
	<datestamp>1264930020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext>By all accounts I can find, the issue with the Toyota's sticky gas pedal is a MECHANICAL one - not some electrical bug.</htmltext>
<tokenext>By all accounts I can find , the issue with the Toyota 's sticky gas pedal is a MECHANICAL one - not some electrical bug .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>By all accounts I can find, the issue with the Toyota's sticky gas pedal is a MECHANICAL one - not some electrical bug.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973688</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264932300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>Just need to solve hills where the driver may need throttle and brake simultaneously to start moving, and it should work.</p></div></blockquote><p>I've learned that for this you use the hand brake. If your car doesn't have automatic gear, it's the only way anyways, because your feet are already used for gas and clutch. Since for stopping you use the brake pedal, the simple solution would be to stop the throttle only for the brake pedal, not for the hand brake.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Just need to solve hills where the driver may need throttle and brake simultaneously to start moving , and it should work.I 've learned that for this you use the hand brake .
If your car does n't have automatic gear , it 's the only way anyways , because your feet are already used for gas and clutch .
Since for stopping you use the brake pedal , the simple solution would be to stop the throttle only for the brake pedal , not for the hand brake .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just need to solve hills where the driver may need throttle and brake simultaneously to start moving, and it should work.I've learned that for this you use the hand brake.
If your car doesn't have automatic gear, it's the only way anyways, because your feet are already used for gas and clutch.
Since for stopping you use the brake pedal, the simple solution would be to stop the throttle only for the brake pedal, not for the hand brake.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973370</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30979888</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265034180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Nonono, you've got that all wrong.</p><p>0. Assume in Neutral with engine started, otherwise put in Neutral and start.<br>1. Keep the parking brake on.<br>2. Don't touch brake pedal.<br>3. Depress clutch.<br>4. Switch to 1st gear.<br>4. Prepare to release parking brake (but don't let it go just yet).<br>5. Rev engine moderately.<br>6. Gradually let up clutch pedal until you feel it "bite" (car moves slightly).<br>7. Smoothly release parking brake fully.<br>8. Fully disengage clutch and press harder on accelerator to start moving forwards.</p><p>Slightly complicated? yes. Takes some practice to get right? yes.<br>Messy? No. Requires heel-and-toe nonsense? Fuck no!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Nonono , you 've got that all wrong.0 .
Assume in Neutral with engine started , otherwise put in Neutral and start.1 .
Keep the parking brake on.2 .
Do n't touch brake pedal.3 .
Depress clutch.4 .
Switch to 1st gear.4 .
Prepare to release parking brake ( but do n't let it go just yet ) .5 .
Rev engine moderately.6 .
Gradually let up clutch pedal until you feel it " bite " ( car moves slightly ) .7 .
Smoothly release parking brake fully.8 .
Fully disengage clutch and press harder on accelerator to start moving forwards.Slightly complicated ?
yes. Takes some practice to get right ?
yes.Messy ? No .
Requires heel-and-toe nonsense ?
Fuck no !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Nonono, you've got that all wrong.0.
Assume in Neutral with engine started, otherwise put in Neutral and start.1.
Keep the parking brake on.2.
Don't touch brake pedal.3.
Depress clutch.4.
Switch to 1st gear.4.
Prepare to release parking brake (but don't let it go just yet).5.
Rev engine moderately.6.
Gradually let up clutch pedal until you feel it "bite" (car moves slightly).7.
Smoothly release parking brake fully.8.
Fully disengage clutch and press harder on accelerator to start moving forwards.Slightly complicated?
yes. Takes some practice to get right?
yes.Messy? No.
Requires heel-and-toe nonsense?
Fuck no!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973582</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973370</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>SydShamino</author>
	<datestamp>1264930740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>There is still no excuse for Toyota not coding the ECU to cut throttle when it senses that the driver has BOTH the throttle and the brakes on simultaneously. All drive by wire VW/Audis are setup this way.</p></div><p>Plus this would solve the problem of the drivers that like to ride with their left foot on the brake pedal - accelerating with their brakes on, cruising with their brakes on, braking with their brakes on (but who can tell?).</p><p>Just need to solve hills where the driver may need throttle and brake simultaneously to start moving, and it should work.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>There is still no excuse for Toyota not coding the ECU to cut throttle when it senses that the driver has BOTH the throttle and the brakes on simultaneously .
All drive by wire VW/Audis are setup this way.Plus this would solve the problem of the drivers that like to ride with their left foot on the brake pedal - accelerating with their brakes on , cruising with their brakes on , braking with their brakes on ( but who can tell ?
) .Just need to solve hills where the driver may need throttle and brake simultaneously to start moving , and it should work .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is still no excuse for Toyota not coding the ECU to cut throttle when it senses that the driver has BOTH the throttle and the brakes on simultaneously.
All drive by wire VW/Audis are setup this way.Plus this would solve the problem of the drivers that like to ride with their left foot on the brake pedal - accelerating with their brakes on, cruising with their brakes on, braking with their brakes on (but who can tell?
).Just need to solve hills where the driver may need throttle and brake simultaneously to start moving, and it should work.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973228</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30981548</id>
	<title>More Luddism</title>
	<author>Hasai</author>
	<datestamp>1265041440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Boeing designed and built a heavy commercial aircraft, the 777, around the concept of "fly-by-wire," yet Toyota can't build a gas pedal.<br>Is it the fault of the electronics, or it the fault of some little bean-counter who insisted the pedal be designed to be as cheap as possible?<br>Gee; hard question.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Boeing designed and built a heavy commercial aircraft , the 777 , around the concept of " fly-by-wire , " yet Toyota ca n't build a gas pedal.Is it the fault of the electronics , or it the fault of some little bean-counter who insisted the pedal be designed to be as cheap as possible ? Gee ; hard question .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Boeing designed and built a heavy commercial aircraft, the 777, around the concept of "fly-by-wire," yet Toyota can't build a gas pedal.Is it the fault of the electronics, or it the fault of some little bean-counter who insisted the pedal be designed to be as cheap as possible?Gee; hard question.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.31049336</id>
	<title>Fly By Wire (Make it 1/4 inch!)</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265464320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Reminds me of a comment I once heard (About Aircraft Flight Controls)<br>"I like fly by wire and I like my wire to be at least 1/4 inch thick!"</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Reminds me of a comment I once heard ( About Aircraft Flight Controls ) " I like fly by wire and I like my wire to be at least 1/4 inch thick !
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Reminds me of a comment I once heard (About Aircraft Flight Controls)"I like fly by wire and I like my wire to be at least 1/4 inch thick!
"</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30976644</id>
	<title>Re:This is pure speculation, but my gut says ECM</title>
	<author>slimjim8094</author>
	<datestamp>1264951800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It is speculative crap, and had you read most of the other posts you would have seen that (let alone TFA). The specific problem is with a sticky bushing. In those instances they can demonstrably pull out the part and show you how it takes too much force to move, perhaps even more than the return-spring can supply. This means that pushing the accellerator will make it sluggishly return - or not at all.</p><p>There *may* be an ECM issue as well (though there's no evidence of it), and the code update to give the brake pedal priority fixes an obvious design flaw, but that's not what's at play now. What they're talking about is a known faulty *mechanical* system.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is speculative crap , and had you read most of the other posts you would have seen that ( let alone TFA ) .
The specific problem is with a sticky bushing .
In those instances they can demonstrably pull out the part and show you how it takes too much force to move , perhaps even more than the return-spring can supply .
This means that pushing the accellerator will make it sluggishly return - or not at all.There * may * be an ECM issue as well ( though there 's no evidence of it ) , and the code update to give the brake pedal priority fixes an obvious design flaw , but that 's not what 's at play now .
What they 're talking about is a known faulty * mechanical * system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is speculative crap, and had you read most of the other posts you would have seen that (let alone TFA).
The specific problem is with a sticky bushing.
In those instances they can demonstrably pull out the part and show you how it takes too much force to move, perhaps even more than the return-spring can supply.
This means that pushing the accellerator will make it sluggishly return - or not at all.There *may* be an ECM issue as well (though there's no evidence of it), and the code update to give the brake pedal priority fixes an obvious design flaw, but that's not what's at play now.
What they're talking about is a known faulty *mechanical* system.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974688</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973326</id>
	<title>Moving too fast</title>
	<author>BadAnalogyGuy</author>
	<datestamp>1264930500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is really a case of technology moving too fast for its own good.</p><p>The fundamental concept behind Japan's quality is <i>kaizen</i>. This is the constant improvement on existing techniques and technology. By starting with what works, it is simpler to build in very small steps without losing any quality along the way.</p><p>However, due to perceived pressures from non-Japanese automakers, companies like Toyota have begun bold initiatives to modernize their cars. The typical automotive embedded system is fairly simple (relatively speaking, of course). There are only a few inputs and only a few outputs and the systems are usually isolated from each other. However, as more features become desired, more interaction between isolated systems becomes a reality. The gas pedal used to only manage the amount of fuel fed to the injection valves. Nowadays it works in tandem with the brake system and suspension to manage tire slippage and traction control.</p><p>In this case, Toyota implemented a very complex system without a series of solid intermediate steps. The result is catastrophic failure when unforeseen interactions suddenly arise. If they were slowly adding features, they could immediately pinpoint the problematic interaction. However because they did it all at once they don't have any idea where the problem lies.</p><p>It makes me want to buy an American car.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This is really a case of technology moving too fast for its own good.The fundamental concept behind Japan 's quality is kaizen .
This is the constant improvement on existing techniques and technology .
By starting with what works , it is simpler to build in very small steps without losing any quality along the way.However , due to perceived pressures from non-Japanese automakers , companies like Toyota have begun bold initiatives to modernize their cars .
The typical automotive embedded system is fairly simple ( relatively speaking , of course ) .
There are only a few inputs and only a few outputs and the systems are usually isolated from each other .
However , as more features become desired , more interaction between isolated systems becomes a reality .
The gas pedal used to only manage the amount of fuel fed to the injection valves .
Nowadays it works in tandem with the brake system and suspension to manage tire slippage and traction control.In this case , Toyota implemented a very complex system without a series of solid intermediate steps .
The result is catastrophic failure when unforeseen interactions suddenly arise .
If they were slowly adding features , they could immediately pinpoint the problematic interaction .
However because they did it all at once they do n't have any idea where the problem lies.It makes me want to buy an American car .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is really a case of technology moving too fast for its own good.The fundamental concept behind Japan's quality is kaizen.
This is the constant improvement on existing techniques and technology.
By starting with what works, it is simpler to build in very small steps without losing any quality along the way.However, due to perceived pressures from non-Japanese automakers, companies like Toyota have begun bold initiatives to modernize their cars.
The typical automotive embedded system is fairly simple (relatively speaking, of course).
There are only a few inputs and only a few outputs and the systems are usually isolated from each other.
However, as more features become desired, more interaction between isolated systems becomes a reality.
The gas pedal used to only manage the amount of fuel fed to the injection valves.
Nowadays it works in tandem with the brake system and suspension to manage tire slippage and traction control.In this case, Toyota implemented a very complex system without a series of solid intermediate steps.
The result is catastrophic failure when unforeseen interactions suddenly arise.
If they were slowly adding features, they could immediately pinpoint the problematic interaction.
However because they did it all at once they don't have any idea where the problem lies.It makes me want to buy an American car.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974068</id>
	<title>Re:missing option Manual Transmission</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264934220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Yeah but youths these days do not possess the third leg to operate the third pedal like us.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah but youths these days do not possess the third leg to operate the third pedal like us .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah but youths these days do not possess the third leg to operate the third pedal like us.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973398</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975278</id>
	<title>Re:Don't bash Electronics for Mechanical Failures</title>
	<author>BitZtream</author>
	<datestamp>1264942020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You didn't do much research.  Toyota has been having this problem for several years now, its been in the news several times, it has not been fixed, and they keep coming up with new excuses for the problem.</p><p>They don't know, or don't want to admit to it.</p><p>Either way, you're an idiot for trusting them to tell you its safe to drive your car.  It doesn't matter how rare it is, its JUST as likely to happen to you as it is every owner.  They haven't told the truth or have had no clue what the problem is for several years.  Trusting them is about as intelligent as trusting a politician at this point.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You did n't do much research .
Toyota has been having this problem for several years now , its been in the news several times , it has not been fixed , and they keep coming up with new excuses for the problem.They do n't know , or do n't want to admit to it.Either way , you 're an idiot for trusting them to tell you its safe to drive your car .
It does n't matter how rare it is , its JUST as likely to happen to you as it is every owner .
They have n't told the truth or have had no clue what the problem is for several years .
Trusting them is about as intelligent as trusting a politician at this point .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You didn't do much research.
Toyota has been having this problem for several years now, its been in the news several times, it has not been fixed, and they keep coming up with new excuses for the problem.They don't know, or don't want to admit to it.Either way, you're an idiot for trusting them to tell you its safe to drive your car.
It doesn't matter how rare it is, its JUST as likely to happen to you as it is every owner.
They haven't told the truth or have had no clue what the problem is for several years.
Trusting them is about as intelligent as trusting a politician at this point.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974110</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974338</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264935600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You have never flown a helicopter I would assume, since most chopper pilots drive cars they way they fly, using both feet.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You have never flown a helicopter I would assume , since most chopper pilots drive cars they way they fly , using both feet .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You have never flown a helicopter I would assume, since most chopper pilots drive cars they way they fly, using both feet.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973228</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.31004836</id>
	<title>Re:missing option Manual Transmission</title>
	<author>\_merlin</author>
	<datestamp>1265126700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You go through brakes a lot faster.  In heavy traffic, with a manual, you can sit in second a lot of the time while crawling and just adjust your foot on the accelerator.  With an auto, you're constantly having to move your foot from accelerator to brake, and wearing out those pads.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You go through brakes a lot faster .
In heavy traffic , with a manual , you can sit in second a lot of the time while crawling and just adjust your foot on the accelerator .
With an auto , you 're constantly having to move your foot from accelerator to brake , and wearing out those pads .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You go through brakes a lot faster.
In heavy traffic, with a manual, you can sit in second a lot of the time while crawling and just adjust your foot on the accelerator.
With an auto, you're constantly having to move your foot from accelerator to brake, and wearing out those pads.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30976364</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974898</id>
	<title>Re:Stupid summary, stupid story</title>
	<author>Jesus\_666</author>
	<datestamp>1264939440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>The failure being solely mechanical still likely points to either a drastic re-engineering to account for the electronics, or an electronics-induced mechanical failure.</p></div></blockquote><p>
Or a case of bad design. Just because we've been building properly working pedals for decades doesn't mean that someone can't come up with one that can get stuck.</p><blockquote><div><p>A throttle really needs to be designed with safety in mind: IE, under-working not over-working. In other words, the car doesn't "go", never mind not accelerating.</p></div></blockquote><p>
While I never encountered stuck accelerators, my father (who used to manage the truck fleet of a transport company) has seen a few vehicles with that problem. It occurred because the cable could go in one direction (opening the throttle) but got stuck when trying to go in the other (thus it stayed open). This could come from a frayed cable getting snagged on something, from something getting into the engine compartment and getting lodged in a bad place or simply from dirt build-up. His opinion on the old-fashioned steel cable throttles isn't very high.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>The failure being solely mechanical still likely points to either a drastic re-engineering to account for the electronics , or an electronics-induced mechanical failure .
Or a case of bad design .
Just because we 've been building properly working pedals for decades does n't mean that someone ca n't come up with one that can get stuck.A throttle really needs to be designed with safety in mind : IE , under-working not over-working .
In other words , the car does n't " go " , never mind not accelerating .
While I never encountered stuck accelerators , my father ( who used to manage the truck fleet of a transport company ) has seen a few vehicles with that problem .
It occurred because the cable could go in one direction ( opening the throttle ) but got stuck when trying to go in the other ( thus it stayed open ) .
This could come from a frayed cable getting snagged on something , from something getting into the engine compartment and getting lodged in a bad place or simply from dirt build-up .
His opinion on the old-fashioned steel cable throttles is n't very high .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The failure being solely mechanical still likely points to either a drastic re-engineering to account for the electronics, or an electronics-induced mechanical failure.
Or a case of bad design.
Just because we've been building properly working pedals for decades doesn't mean that someone can't come up with one that can get stuck.A throttle really needs to be designed with safety in mind: IE, under-working not over-working.
In other words, the car doesn't "go", never mind not accelerating.
While I never encountered stuck accelerators, my father (who used to manage the truck fleet of a transport company) has seen a few vehicles with that problem.
It occurred because the cable could go in one direction (opening the throttle) but got stuck when trying to go in the other (thus it stayed open).
This could come from a frayed cable getting snagged on something, from something getting into the engine compartment and getting lodged in a bad place or simply from dirt build-up.
His opinion on the old-fashioned steel cable throttles isn't very high.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973378</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975026</id>
	<title>Toyota needs to learn from Aston Martin</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264940340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In case of emergency:</p><p>(1) flip open cover on top of shift knob.<br>(2) depress exposed button.<br>(3) eject.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In case of emergency : ( 1 ) flip open cover on top of shift knob .
( 2 ) depress exposed button .
( 3 ) eject .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In case of emergency:(1) flip open cover on top of shift knob.
(2) depress exposed button.
(3) eject.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30979666</id>
	<title>moral failure</title>
	<author>circletimessquare</author>
	<datestamp>1265031960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>this is a common problem with people making quick judgments</p><p>like "she deserved to be raped, because she was wearing skimpy clothing"</p><p>if you are transgressed against, it doesn't matter how foolish you behave before or after the transgression. let me repeat that, since so many obviously don't understand the point: it doesn't matter AT ALL how lame the victim is of any crime, before or after the crime took place. there is still a crime that took place, and it was perpetrated by someone else. and if the criminal wasn't there, the victim would not have been violated. the ONLY blame for ANY crime is the criminal, not the victim, no matter how unsympathetic the victim. please, people understand this and develop some vague moral compass to your life: the ONLY blame for ANY crime is the criminal, not the victim, no matter how unsympathetic the victim. let it sink in, understand this really is the only logically coherent understanding of crime and punishment</p><p>so no woman, even if she walks nude into a biker bar, deserves to be raped, and if she is, it is the rapist's fault and the rapist's fault alone. this is the only morally coherent judgment possible</p><p>and no driver, no matter how lame and idiotic, deserves to be in a car with faulty features. and if the car accelerates due to toyota's error, toyota, and toyota alone is to blame, no matter how badly the driver tries to mitigate the situation, or whatever they did preceding the situation</p><p>if the driver was drunk, on meth, watching a dvd, and texting, and being blown by a hooker, and their car accelerated due to toyota manufacturing, and the driver's response was simply to cry and wet their pants, despite even the most obvious of dozens of possible responses, the simple and only moral truth possible for you to consider is that toyota, and toyota alone, is to blame. examine the logic. understand why. stop being so quick to judge and understand why the criminal NEVER shares blame with his victim</p><p>so in all these slashdotter's arch and ever-so-wise judgments, when you see "blame the victim" as an underlying assumption in the comment, you see no real wisdom, you see only smug condescension and simple logical and moral incoherence and failure in the commenter's thinking</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>this is a common problem with people making quick judgmentslike " she deserved to be raped , because she was wearing skimpy clothing " if you are transgressed against , it does n't matter how foolish you behave before or after the transgression .
let me repeat that , since so many obviously do n't understand the point : it does n't matter AT ALL how lame the victim is of any crime , before or after the crime took place .
there is still a crime that took place , and it was perpetrated by someone else .
and if the criminal was n't there , the victim would not have been violated .
the ONLY blame for ANY crime is the criminal , not the victim , no matter how unsympathetic the victim .
please , people understand this and develop some vague moral compass to your life : the ONLY blame for ANY crime is the criminal , not the victim , no matter how unsympathetic the victim .
let it sink in , understand this really is the only logically coherent understanding of crime and punishmentso no woman , even if she walks nude into a biker bar , deserves to be raped , and if she is , it is the rapist 's fault and the rapist 's fault alone .
this is the only morally coherent judgment possibleand no driver , no matter how lame and idiotic , deserves to be in a car with faulty features .
and if the car accelerates due to toyota 's error , toyota , and toyota alone is to blame , no matter how badly the driver tries to mitigate the situation , or whatever they did preceding the situationif the driver was drunk , on meth , watching a dvd , and texting , and being blown by a hooker , and their car accelerated due to toyota manufacturing , and the driver 's response was simply to cry and wet their pants , despite even the most obvious of dozens of possible responses , the simple and only moral truth possible for you to consider is that toyota , and toyota alone , is to blame .
examine the logic .
understand why .
stop being so quick to judge and understand why the criminal NEVER shares blame with his victimso in all these slashdotter 's arch and ever-so-wise judgments , when you see " blame the victim " as an underlying assumption in the comment , you see no real wisdom , you see only smug condescension and simple logical and moral incoherence and failure in the commenter 's thinking</tokentext>
<sentencetext>this is a common problem with people making quick judgmentslike "she deserved to be raped, because she was wearing skimpy clothing"if you are transgressed against, it doesn't matter how foolish you behave before or after the transgression.
let me repeat that, since so many obviously don't understand the point: it doesn't matter AT ALL how lame the victim is of any crime, before or after the crime took place.
there is still a crime that took place, and it was perpetrated by someone else.
and if the criminal wasn't there, the victim would not have been violated.
the ONLY blame for ANY crime is the criminal, not the victim, no matter how unsympathetic the victim.
please, people understand this and develop some vague moral compass to your life: the ONLY blame for ANY crime is the criminal, not the victim, no matter how unsympathetic the victim.
let it sink in, understand this really is the only logically coherent understanding of crime and punishmentso no woman, even if she walks nude into a biker bar, deserves to be raped, and if she is, it is the rapist's fault and the rapist's fault alone.
this is the only morally coherent judgment possibleand no driver, no matter how lame and idiotic, deserves to be in a car with faulty features.
and if the car accelerates due to toyota's error, toyota, and toyota alone is to blame, no matter how badly the driver tries to mitigate the situation, or whatever they did preceding the situationif the driver was drunk, on meth, watching a dvd, and texting, and being blown by a hooker, and their car accelerated due to toyota manufacturing, and the driver's response was simply to cry and wet their pants, despite even the most obvious of dozens of possible responses, the simple and only moral truth possible for you to consider is that toyota, and toyota alone, is to blame.
examine the logic.
understand why.
stop being so quick to judge and understand why the criminal NEVER shares blame with his victimso in all these slashdotter's arch and ever-so-wise judgments, when you see "blame the victim" as an underlying assumption in the comment, you see no real wisdom, you see only smug condescension and simple logical and moral incoherence and failure in the commenter's thinking</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974008</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974552</id>
	<title>Unnecessary, buggy, overly complex..</title>
	<author>Paracelcus</author>
	<datestamp>1264937100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Expensive, dangerous, bullshit!</p><p>My 1965 Ford Econoline pickup, has turned over 100,000 miles at least seven times in the past 45 years and has never had anything more dangerous happen than rolling backward on a steep San Francisco hill!</p><p>Keep it Simple</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Expensive , dangerous , bullshit ! My 1965 Ford Econoline pickup , has turned over 100,000 miles at least seven times in the past 45 years and has never had anything more dangerous happen than rolling backward on a steep San Francisco hill ! Keep it Simple</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Expensive, dangerous, bullshit!My 1965 Ford Econoline pickup, has turned over 100,000 miles at least seven times in the past 45 years and has never had anything more dangerous happen than rolling backward on a steep San Francisco hill!Keep it Simple</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973806</id>
	<title>Re:Stupid summary, stupid story</title>
	<author>waa</author>
	<datestamp>1264933020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I have mod points, but you are already at +5... There needs to be a +6<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have mod points , but you are already at + 5... There needs to be a + 6 ; )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have mod points, but you are already at +5... There needs to be a +6 ;)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973224</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30977298</id>
	<title>Re:missing option Manual Transmission</title>
	<author>sourcerror</author>
	<datestamp>1264958760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At least they don't have spare limbs for cell phones.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At least they do n't have spare limbs for cell phones .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At least they don't have spare limbs for cell phones.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974196</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30976528</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264950480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt; There is still no excuse for Toyota not coding the ECU to cut throttle when it senses that the driver has BOTH the throttle and the brakes on simultaneously<br>If they did that, how would you heel-and-toe downshift on corner entry?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; There is still no excuse for Toyota not coding the ECU to cut throttle when it senses that the driver has BOTH the throttle and the brakes on simultaneouslyIf they did that , how would you heel-and-toe downshift on corner entry ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt; There is still no excuse for Toyota not coding the ECU to cut throttle when it senses that the driver has BOTH the throttle and the brakes on simultaneouslyIf they did that, how would you heel-and-toe downshift on corner entry?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973228</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974088</id>
	<title>ETC - not floormats.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264934340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I have some computer experience as well as a bit of design and electrinics in the mix and one thing comes to mind as the real cause.</p><p>Drive by Wire.</p><p>Seriously, floor mats and other issues like that are just Toyota looking for an excuse when they know full well that the issue is something that can't be fixed without a major redesign next year. Ie - "It might be that if you place the mats just this way"(bunched up like only a moron would let happen) or "This servo might stick under the right conditions and enough wear"(despite the part being nowhere near its normal end of life)</p><p>The issue is drive by wire. Something's gone pear-shaped with their electronics and/or software that controls it and they're trying to find any excuse that might be the cause other than their design is unsafe. Blaming a servo or floor mats is just total BS and anyone with an ounce of technical skill would realize that servos and relays last for the better part of a decade.</p><p>The big give-away is the reports of the automatic cruise control malfunctioning. That's 100\% software, folks.   Something does wrong with the sensors and the software doesn't have a proper fail-safe mode programmed.</p><p>***this is from Wikipedia on Electronic Throttle Control***<br>There are two primary types of throttle position sensors: a potentiometer or a Hall Effect sensor (magnetic device). The potentiometer is a satisfactory way for non-critical applications such as volume control on a radio, but as it has a wiper contact rubbing against a resistance element, dirt and wear between the wiper and the resistor can cause erratic readings. The more reliable solution is the magnetic coupling that makes no physical contact, so will never be subject to failing by wear.</p><p>This is an insidious failure as it may not provide any symptoms until there is total failure. (edit by me - they're talking about the second type of sensor here- usually the potentiometer desgins give plenty of warning)<br>*****<br>Guess what type of sensors the Toyotas use? Guess what happens when they get confused and start to fail? The U.S. made parts may be defective or fail in 2-3 years instead of 8-10 like the Japanese parts, but the problem still remains. <b>When</b>(not if) the part breaks and needs replacement, expect it to cause the throttle to jam wide open.</p><p>There also is a note at the bottom of the article stating that ETC is currently suspected in the recent Toyota recalls but that Toyota is fiercely denying it.  of course they are.  This affects almost every Toyota and Lexus that they currently sell(and for the last couple of years as well).  And it's not something that can be fixed without a major physical redesign.</p><p>Watch the next year or two's models switch back to a throttle cable. Then try to sell your drive-by-wire ones used. To anyone.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I have some computer experience as well as a bit of design and electrinics in the mix and one thing comes to mind as the real cause.Drive by Wire.Seriously , floor mats and other issues like that are just Toyota looking for an excuse when they know full well that the issue is something that ca n't be fixed without a major redesign next year .
Ie - " It might be that if you place the mats just this way " ( bunched up like only a moron would let happen ) or " This servo might stick under the right conditions and enough wear " ( despite the part being nowhere near its normal end of life ) The issue is drive by wire .
Something 's gone pear-shaped with their electronics and/or software that controls it and they 're trying to find any excuse that might be the cause other than their design is unsafe .
Blaming a servo or floor mats is just total BS and anyone with an ounce of technical skill would realize that servos and relays last for the better part of a decade.The big give-away is the reports of the automatic cruise control malfunctioning .
That 's 100 \ % software , folks .
Something does wrong with the sensors and the software does n't have a proper fail-safe mode programmed .
* * * this is from Wikipedia on Electronic Throttle Control * * * There are two primary types of throttle position sensors : a potentiometer or a Hall Effect sensor ( magnetic device ) .
The potentiometer is a satisfactory way for non-critical applications such as volume control on a radio , but as it has a wiper contact rubbing against a resistance element , dirt and wear between the wiper and the resistor can cause erratic readings .
The more reliable solution is the magnetic coupling that makes no physical contact , so will never be subject to failing by wear.This is an insidious failure as it may not provide any symptoms until there is total failure .
( edit by me - they 're talking about the second type of sensor here- usually the potentiometer desgins give plenty of warning ) * * * * * Guess what type of sensors the Toyotas use ?
Guess what happens when they get confused and start to fail ?
The U.S. made parts may be defective or fail in 2-3 years instead of 8-10 like the Japanese parts , but the problem still remains .
When ( not if ) the part breaks and needs replacement , expect it to cause the throttle to jam wide open.There also is a note at the bottom of the article stating that ETC is currently suspected in the recent Toyota recalls but that Toyota is fiercely denying it .
of course they are .
This affects almost every Toyota and Lexus that they currently sell ( and for the last couple of years as well ) .
And it 's not something that can be fixed without a major physical redesign.Watch the next year or two 's models switch back to a throttle cable .
Then try to sell your drive-by-wire ones used .
To anyone .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have some computer experience as well as a bit of design and electrinics in the mix and one thing comes to mind as the real cause.Drive by Wire.Seriously, floor mats and other issues like that are just Toyota looking for an excuse when they know full well that the issue is something that can't be fixed without a major redesign next year.
Ie - "It might be that if you place the mats just this way"(bunched up like only a moron would let happen) or "This servo might stick under the right conditions and enough wear"(despite the part being nowhere near its normal end of life)The issue is drive by wire.
Something's gone pear-shaped with their electronics and/or software that controls it and they're trying to find any excuse that might be the cause other than their design is unsafe.
Blaming a servo or floor mats is just total BS and anyone with an ounce of technical skill would realize that servos and relays last for the better part of a decade.The big give-away is the reports of the automatic cruise control malfunctioning.
That's 100\% software, folks.
Something does wrong with the sensors and the software doesn't have a proper fail-safe mode programmed.
***this is from Wikipedia on Electronic Throttle Control***There are two primary types of throttle position sensors: a potentiometer or a Hall Effect sensor (magnetic device).
The potentiometer is a satisfactory way for non-critical applications such as volume control on a radio, but as it has a wiper contact rubbing against a resistance element, dirt and wear between the wiper and the resistor can cause erratic readings.
The more reliable solution is the magnetic coupling that makes no physical contact, so will never be subject to failing by wear.This is an insidious failure as it may not provide any symptoms until there is total failure.
(edit by me - they're talking about the second type of sensor here- usually the potentiometer desgins give plenty of warning)*****Guess what type of sensors the Toyotas use?
Guess what happens when they get confused and start to fail?
The U.S. made parts may be defective or fail in 2-3 years instead of 8-10 like the Japanese parts, but the problem still remains.
When(not if) the part breaks and needs replacement, expect it to cause the throttle to jam wide open.There also is a note at the bottom of the article stating that ETC is currently suspected in the recent Toyota recalls but that Toyota is fiercely denying it.
of course they are.
This affects almost every Toyota and Lexus that they currently sell(and for the last couple of years as well).
And it's not something that can be fixed without a major physical redesign.Watch the next year or two's models switch back to a throttle cable.
Then try to sell your drive-by-wire ones used.
To anyone.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974164</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264934760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>... There is still no excuse for Toyota not coding the ECU to cut throttle when it senses that the driver has BOTH the throttle and the brakes on simultaneously. All drive by wire VW/Audis are setup this way.</p></div><p>Rally and other skilled drivers make use of throttle and brakes at the same time, by left foot braking.  This is a convenient method for modifying the brake balance (distribution of braking force front vs. rear) under driver control.  Typically, adding throttle in a front drive car (while braking) moves the brake balance to the rear, useful for initiating a controlled skid. </p><p>
If I was king for a day, everyone would be required to take advanced winter driving instruction (currently taught at rally schools) and left foot braking would be part of the course.  I left foot brake occasionally (or grab the handbrake if convenient) to make the car turn on slippery surfaces.  It's effective when the car seems like it's going to slide headlong off the road (plow) and it's also fun to have a second control over the car heading (in addition to the steering wheel).</p><p>
Obviously I'm not about to buy anything from VW/Audi if they really do have this "interlock" built in.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>... There is still no excuse for Toyota not coding the ECU to cut throttle when it senses that the driver has BOTH the throttle and the brakes on simultaneously .
All drive by wire VW/Audis are setup this way.Rally and other skilled drivers make use of throttle and brakes at the same time , by left foot braking .
This is a convenient method for modifying the brake balance ( distribution of braking force front vs. rear ) under driver control .
Typically , adding throttle in a front drive car ( while braking ) moves the brake balance to the rear , useful for initiating a controlled skid .
If I was king for a day , everyone would be required to take advanced winter driving instruction ( currently taught at rally schools ) and left foot braking would be part of the course .
I left foot brake occasionally ( or grab the handbrake if convenient ) to make the car turn on slippery surfaces .
It 's effective when the car seems like it 's going to slide headlong off the road ( plow ) and it 's also fun to have a second control over the car heading ( in addition to the steering wheel ) .
Obviously I 'm not about to buy anything from VW/Audi if they really do have this " interlock " built in .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>... There is still no excuse for Toyota not coding the ECU to cut throttle when it senses that the driver has BOTH the throttle and the brakes on simultaneously.
All drive by wire VW/Audis are setup this way.Rally and other skilled drivers make use of throttle and brakes at the same time, by left foot braking.
This is a convenient method for modifying the brake balance (distribution of braking force front vs. rear) under driver control.
Typically, adding throttle in a front drive car (while braking) moves the brake balance to the rear, useful for initiating a controlled skid.
If I was king for a day, everyone would be required to take advanced winter driving instruction (currently taught at rally schools) and left foot braking would be part of the course.
I left foot brake occasionally (or grab the handbrake if convenient) to make the car turn on slippery surfaces.
It's effective when the car seems like it's going to slide headlong off the road (plow) and it's also fun to have a second control over the car heading (in addition to the steering wheel).
Obviously I'm not about to buy anything from VW/Audi if they really do have this "interlock" built in.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973228</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974562</id>
	<title>Re:Is handbrake still hydraulic?</title>
	<author>mirix</author>
	<datestamp>1264937160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Handbrake is cable. The foot brake is hydraulic, always was, and should be for the foreseeable future. <br>Steering is also a direct mechanical link. The only thing that is an electronic link is the throttle, because it doesn't really matter if it fails, unlike brakes &amp; steering.<br> <br>VW and Audi have had fly by wire (throttle) for 15 years now, and I've never heard of a problem with them. <br> <br> Scratch that, some googling makes it look like the toyota hybrids do have electronic brake - that was stupid decision... I didn't think that was even legal.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Handbrake is cable .
The foot brake is hydraulic , always was , and should be for the foreseeable future .
Steering is also a direct mechanical link .
The only thing that is an electronic link is the throttle , because it does n't really matter if it fails , unlike brakes &amp; steering .
VW and Audi have had fly by wire ( throttle ) for 15 years now , and I 've never heard of a problem with them .
Scratch that , some googling makes it look like the toyota hybrids do have electronic brake - that was stupid decision... I did n't think that was even legal .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Handbrake is cable.
The foot brake is hydraulic, always was, and should be for the foreseeable future.
Steering is also a direct mechanical link.
The only thing that is an electronic link is the throttle, because it doesn't really matter if it fails, unlike brakes &amp; steering.
VW and Audi have had fly by wire (throttle) for 15 years now, and I've never heard of a problem with them.
Scratch that, some googling makes it look like the toyota hybrids do have electronic brake - that was stupid decision... I didn't think that was even legal.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973634</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975374</id>
	<title>Re:Don't bash Electronics for Mechanical Failures</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264942620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
<i>having to deal with the specific sales people (Honda, I'm looking at you!).</i>
</p><p>
Hmm - had the exact opposite experience here.  When we bought our Accord, part of the reason was issues with the Toyota guys.
</p><p>
Since then, I've had the chance to spend a lot of time with a relative's Camry, and I'm liking the Accord even more after that.  They did a much better job thinking out the interior, like you've noted.
</p><p>
And the crash test numbers for the Accord are some of the best around<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>having to deal with the specific sales people ( Honda , I 'm looking at you ! ) .
Hmm - had the exact opposite experience here .
When we bought our Accord , part of the reason was issues with the Toyota guys .
Since then , I 've had the chance to spend a lot of time with a relative 's Camry , and I 'm liking the Accord even more after that .
They did a much better job thinking out the interior , like you 've noted .
And the crash test numbers for the Accord are some of the best around .. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
having to deal with the specific sales people (Honda, I'm looking at you!).
Hmm - had the exact opposite experience here.
When we bought our Accord, part of the reason was issues with the Toyota guys.
Since then, I've had the chance to spend a lot of time with a relative's Camry, and I'm liking the Accord even more after that.
They did a much better job thinking out the interior, like you've noted.
And the crash test numbers for the Accord are some of the best around ...
</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974110</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.31000724</id>
	<title>Re:missing option Manual Transmission</title>
	<author>s122604</author>
	<datestamp>1265103240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext> "fuel economy is so much better with a manual transmission"

No, actually it's not...</htmltext>
<tokenext>" fuel economy is so much better with a manual transmission " No , actually it 's not.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> "fuel economy is so much better with a manual transmission"

No, actually it's not...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975320</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30981198</id>
	<title>3 systems that should never be electronic</title>
	<author>KiwiCanuck</author>
	<datestamp>1265040120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>brakes, steering &amp; throttle control. These are the 3 active collision systems.</htmltext>
<tokenext>brakes , steering &amp; throttle control .
These are the 3 active collision systems .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>brakes, steering &amp; throttle control.
These are the 3 active collision systems.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973554</id>
	<title>Re:Stupid summary, stupid story</title>
	<author>pydev</author>
	<datestamp>1264931640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>it's a very simple and reliable steel cable.</i></p><p>Actually, mechanical accelerators do get stuck fairly frequently, and as a driver, you need to know what to do.</p><p>If your car is so complicated that you can't figure it out, get a simpler car.  You are responsible, not Toyota.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>it 's a very simple and reliable steel cable.Actually , mechanical accelerators do get stuck fairly frequently , and as a driver , you need to know what to do.If your car is so complicated that you ca n't figure it out , get a simpler car .
You are responsible , not Toyota .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>it's a very simple and reliable steel cable.Actually, mechanical accelerators do get stuck fairly frequently, and as a driver, you need to know what to do.If your car is so complicated that you can't figure it out, get a simpler car.
You are responsible, not Toyota.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973224</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974956</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>bhalter80</author>
	<datestamp>1264939860000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>I call schinanigans on this, I have a 6spd VW and trust me it doesn't prevent you from using the throttle and brake at the same time</htmltext>
<tokenext>I call schinanigans on this , I have a 6spd VW and trust me it does n't prevent you from using the throttle and brake at the same time</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I call schinanigans on this, I have a 6spd VW and trust me it doesn't prevent you from using the throttle and brake at the same time</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973228</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30981020</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>nbacon</author>
	<datestamp>1265039400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>I have one of the recalled Toyota vehicles (2010 Highlander).     You can bet your ass that I practiced shifting to neutral while accelerating on the highway and in town as soon as I heard about the recall.    Shifting to neutral is possible at 75 and flooring it.   Also possible to shift to neutral when flooring it from a dead stop at a stop light.

The accelerator assembly is a rather bulky box under the pedal.  Definitely a mechanical &amp; electronic interface.

I am unconvinced as to the issue being resolved, but in the case of unintended acceleration I think I should be able to bring the vehicle to a stop.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I have one of the recalled Toyota vehicles ( 2010 Highlander ) .
You can bet your ass that I practiced shifting to neutral while accelerating on the highway and in town as soon as I heard about the recall .
Shifting to neutral is possible at 75 and flooring it .
Also possible to shift to neutral when flooring it from a dead stop at a stop light .
The accelerator assembly is a rather bulky box under the pedal .
Definitely a mechanical &amp; electronic interface .
I am unconvinced as to the issue being resolved , but in the case of unintended acceleration I think I should be able to bring the vehicle to a stop .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I have one of the recalled Toyota vehicles (2010 Highlander).
You can bet your ass that I practiced shifting to neutral while accelerating on the highway and in town as soon as I heard about the recall.
Shifting to neutral is possible at 75 and flooring it.
Also possible to shift to neutral when flooring it from a dead stop at a stop light.
The accelerator assembly is a rather bulky box under the pedal.
Definitely a mechanical &amp; electronic interface.
I am unconvinced as to the issue being resolved, but in the case of unintended acceleration I think I should be able to bring the vehicle to a stop.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973376</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30983814</id>
	<title>Re:Stupid summary, stupid story</title>
	<author>oh\_my\_080980980</author>
	<datestamp>1265050500000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>
And yet that did not happened to a cable-operated system!
<br> <br>
Ass.
<br> <br>
Toyota should have an override system.  They did not.  It's also an issue with design:
<br> <br>
"...condensation from heaters caused increased friction in the gas pedal, making it stick in some cases"
<br> <br>
Toyota should have determined scenarios where a gas pedal would stick do to condensation.  That's a pretty common thing, condensation.  If you gas pedal is going to stick because of it, that's a hazard!</htmltext>
<tokenext>And yet that did not happened to a cable-operated system !
Ass . Toyota should have an override system .
They did not .
It 's also an issue with design : " ...condensation from heaters caused increased friction in the gas pedal , making it stick in some cases " Toyota should have determined scenarios where a gas pedal would stick do to condensation .
That 's a pretty common thing , condensation .
If you gas pedal is going to stick because of it , that 's a hazard !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
And yet that did not happened to a cable-operated system!
Ass.
 
Toyota should have an override system.
They did not.
It's also an issue with design:
 
"...condensation from heaters caused increased friction in the gas pedal, making it stick in some cases"
 
Toyota should have determined scenarios where a gas pedal would stick do to condensation.
That's a pretty common thing, condensation.
If you gas pedal is going to stick because of it, that's a hazard!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973224</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30977436</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>tcgroat</author>
	<datestamp>1264960140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The logic really is (or should be) a little more complicated than that, requiring the car to be moving or ignoring modest throttle applications. Otherwise, the usual way of starting up a steep hill has the unintended consequence of killing the motor. But the overall plan is a good one, when there are conflicting inputs go to a safe condition.
I don't buy the nonsense that the driver shouldn't switch off the ignition to control a run-away motor. Losing power-assisted brakes and steering is no excuse, the car should be perfectly controllable without them (what happens when you run out of gas?). The steering wheel doesn't lock on any car I've seen until you actually pull the key out of the ignition lock, and there is an interlock that prevents you from doing that without operating a separate safety latch (manual transmission) or shifting into park (automatic transmission). It's designed that way for this very reason. <i>If the motor is running away, turn off the switch!</i></htmltext>
<tokenext>The logic really is ( or should be ) a little more complicated than that , requiring the car to be moving or ignoring modest throttle applications .
Otherwise , the usual way of starting up a steep hill has the unintended consequence of killing the motor .
But the overall plan is a good one , when there are conflicting inputs go to a safe condition .
I do n't buy the nonsense that the driver should n't switch off the ignition to control a run-away motor .
Losing power-assisted brakes and steering is no excuse , the car should be perfectly controllable without them ( what happens when you run out of gas ? ) .
The steering wheel does n't lock on any car I 've seen until you actually pull the key out of the ignition lock , and there is an interlock that prevents you from doing that without operating a separate safety latch ( manual transmission ) or shifting into park ( automatic transmission ) .
It 's designed that way for this very reason .
If the motor is running away , turn off the switch !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The logic really is (or should be) a little more complicated than that, requiring the car to be moving or ignoring modest throttle applications.
Otherwise, the usual way of starting up a steep hill has the unintended consequence of killing the motor.
But the overall plan is a good one, when there are conflicting inputs go to a safe condition.
I don't buy the nonsense that the driver shouldn't switch off the ignition to control a run-away motor.
Losing power-assisted brakes and steering is no excuse, the car should be perfectly controllable without them (what happens when you run out of gas?).
The steering wheel doesn't lock on any car I've seen until you actually pull the key out of the ignition lock, and there is an interlock that prevents you from doing that without operating a separate safety latch (manual transmission) or shifting into park (automatic transmission).
It's designed that way for this very reason.
If the motor is running away, turn off the switch!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973228</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975414</id>
	<title>Re:missing option Manual Transmission</title>
	<author>couchslug</author>
	<datestamp>1264942800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The German solution we should copy is a real driving test. In the US, one has to be mentally defective not to be issued a license, driver/rider training sucks, and the result is deadly.</p><p>I could care less about manual boxes. I have both, but autos suit the way I use my larger trucks.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The German solution we should copy is a real driving test .
In the US , one has to be mentally defective not to be issued a license , driver/rider training sucks , and the result is deadly.I could care less about manual boxes .
I have both , but autos suit the way I use my larger trucks .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The German solution we should copy is a real driving test.
In the US, one has to be mentally defective not to be issued a license, driver/rider training sucks, and the result is deadly.I could care less about manual boxes.
I have both, but autos suit the way I use my larger trucks.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974192</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973722</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>DevonBorn</author>
	<datestamp>1264932420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Personally, I've always used the hand brake (probably the parking brake you're refering to) to stop the car from rolling back during a hill start. There's no need to use the brake pedal for that.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Personally , I 've always used the hand brake ( probably the parking brake you 're refering to ) to stop the car from rolling back during a hill start .
There 's no need to use the brake pedal for that .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Personally, I've always used the hand brake (probably the parking brake you're refering to) to stop the car from rolling back during a hill start.
There's no need to use the brake pedal for that.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973582</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975742</id>
	<title>Re:Don't bash Electronics for Mechanical Failures</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264944840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"There are some deficiencies in the car, such as the trip computer not showing you fuel efficiency ratings, the quality of the construction in the plastic covering under the engine, cheap plywood backing covering the spare tire in the trunk, and louder than normal wind noise coming from the front roof support posts and root during 80 mpg highway driving speeds, a cup holder divider that comes out anytime you take a cup out of it, and probably a bunch of other issues that we'll find out after more than 4-weeks of owning it."</p><p>I am really surprised at the different build quality between your car and mine... having the same model car only built in Australia and it has none of the above mentioned problems and I wouldn't say Australia is particularly renowned for its car manufacturing quality.  Has Toyota just been bitten by deciding to manufacture in the USA?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" There are some deficiencies in the car , such as the trip computer not showing you fuel efficiency ratings , the quality of the construction in the plastic covering under the engine , cheap plywood backing covering the spare tire in the trunk , and louder than normal wind noise coming from the front roof support posts and root during 80 mpg highway driving speeds , a cup holder divider that comes out anytime you take a cup out of it , and probably a bunch of other issues that we 'll find out after more than 4-weeks of owning it .
" I am really surprised at the different build quality between your car and mine... having the same model car only built in Australia and it has none of the above mentioned problems and I would n't say Australia is particularly renowned for its car manufacturing quality .
Has Toyota just been bitten by deciding to manufacture in the USA ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"There are some deficiencies in the car, such as the trip computer not showing you fuel efficiency ratings, the quality of the construction in the plastic covering under the engine, cheap plywood backing covering the spare tire in the trunk, and louder than normal wind noise coming from the front roof support posts and root during 80 mpg highway driving speeds, a cup holder divider that comes out anytime you take a cup out of it, and probably a bunch of other issues that we'll find out after more than 4-weeks of owning it.
"I am really surprised at the different build quality between your car and mine... having the same model car only built in Australia and it has none of the above mentioned problems and I wouldn't say Australia is particularly renowned for its car manufacturing quality.
Has Toyota just been bitten by deciding to manufacture in the USA?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974110</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30976360</id>
	<title>Re:Ford 'cruise control terror driver' excellent l</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264949160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>2. He couldn't shift to neutral because the car wouldn't let him push the shift release button. (It was an automatic, so no clutch pedal.)</p></div><p>I've driven quite a few automatics (domestic and import) and I've never been in one that required you to press a button to move between drive and neutral.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>2 .
He could n't shift to neutral because the car would n't let him push the shift release button .
( It was an automatic , so no clutch pedal .
) I 've driven quite a few automatics ( domestic and import ) and I 've never been in one that required you to press a button to move between drive and neutral .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>2.
He couldn't shift to neutral because the car wouldn't let him push the shift release button.
(It was an automatic, so no clutch pedal.
)I've driven quite a few automatics (domestic and import) and I've never been in one that required you to press a button to move between drive and neutral.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974502</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973364</id>
	<title>Re:Stupid summary, stupid story</title>
	<author>newdsfornerds</author>
	<datestamp>1264930740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>"There is no hose" OR "there are no hoses," would be correct. Also your first sentence should really be two.

Cheers,

Your friendly neighborhood usage nerd.</htmltext>
<tokenext>" There is no hose " OR " there are no hoses , " would be correct .
Also your first sentence should really be two .
Cheers , Your friendly neighborhood usage nerd .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"There is no hose" OR "there are no hoses," would be correct.
Also your first sentence should really be two.
Cheers,

Your friendly neighborhood usage nerd.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973224</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973376</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>sjames</author>
	<datestamp>1264930800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Before that, they claimed it was the floormat, even though at least one credible incident report was for a car where the floormats were removed.</p><p>Now they claim the pedal sticks down in spite of the reports including cases where the car takes off while at highway speed or while stopped. A sticky pedal cannot explain sudden acceleration, only a failure to stop accelerating.</p><p>They seem to be dodging the issue of the car refusing to shift into neutral while at speed even though restoring that simple bit of functionality would greatly improve safety. The controller should really take the hint and digore the accelerator at that point.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Before that , they claimed it was the floormat , even though at least one credible incident report was for a car where the floormats were removed.Now they claim the pedal sticks down in spite of the reports including cases where the car takes off while at highway speed or while stopped .
A sticky pedal can not explain sudden acceleration , only a failure to stop accelerating.They seem to be dodging the issue of the car refusing to shift into neutral while at speed even though restoring that simple bit of functionality would greatly improve safety .
The controller should really take the hint and digore the accelerator at that point .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Before that, they claimed it was the floormat, even though at least one credible incident report was for a car where the floormats were removed.Now they claim the pedal sticks down in spite of the reports including cases where the car takes off while at highway speed or while stopped.
A sticky pedal cannot explain sudden acceleration, only a failure to stop accelerating.They seem to be dodging the issue of the car refusing to shift into neutral while at speed even though restoring that simple bit of functionality would greatly improve safety.
The controller should really take the hint and digore the accelerator at that point.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973228</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973918</id>
	<title>If you have a problem with "drive by wire"</title>
	<author>ppetrakis</author>
	<datestamp>1264933620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Then you should never step foot on a commercial air liner again. The article is over generalizing<br>and essentially amounts to fear mongering. I've personally experienced having a throttle cable<br>snap, thank God it failed closed, I've heard stories that went the other way... Control system failures<br>happen, the least we can expect from the manufacturers is that they fail safe. "drive by wire" is in essence<br>a good thing. So say the next time the pedal fails, the system could determine a fault occurred<br>and cut the throttle; it might even turn your hazards on in the future to alert the drivers around you.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Then you should never step foot on a commercial air liner again .
The article is over generalizingand essentially amounts to fear mongering .
I 've personally experienced having a throttle cablesnap , thank God it failed closed , I 've heard stories that went the other way... Control system failureshappen , the least we can expect from the manufacturers is that they fail safe .
" drive by wire " is in essencea good thing .
So say the next time the pedal fails , the system could determine a fault occurredand cut the throttle ; it might even turn your hazards on in the future to alert the drivers around you .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Then you should never step foot on a commercial air liner again.
The article is over generalizingand essentially amounts to fear mongering.
I've personally experienced having a throttle cablesnap, thank God it failed closed, I've heard stories that went the other way... Control system failureshappen, the least we can expect from the manufacturers is that they fail safe.
"drive by wire" is in essencea good thing.
So say the next time the pedal fails, the system could determine a fault occurredand cut the throttle; it might even turn your hazards on in the future to alert the drivers around you.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30978224</id>
	<title>Re:Shift into neutral, are you kidding?</title>
	<author>Hamsterdan</author>
	<datestamp>1265056560000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Between killing someone (or myself) or blowing my engine, i'll kill the engine. It can be replaced. A life can't...</htmltext>
<tokenext>Between killing someone ( or myself ) or blowing my engine , i 'll kill the engine .
It can be replaced .
A life ca n't.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Between killing someone (or myself) or blowing my engine, i'll kill the engine.
It can be replaced.
A life can't...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974534</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30997666</id>
	<title>Re:I sat in a Prius as a driver once.</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265134320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You realize they sell Fords with 'pedal based' handbrakes too, right?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You realize they sell Fords with 'pedal based ' handbrakes too , right ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You realize they sell Fords with 'pedal based' handbrakes too, right?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973960</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974534</id>
	<title>Shift into neutral, are you kidding?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264937040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>What is with all these crazy people suggesting that you should shift into neutral? With a floored accelerator, that's a great way to completely destroy the engine. How about you do what you always do when you want to slow down? Push the fucking brake!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>What is with all these crazy people suggesting that you should shift into neutral ?
With a floored accelerator , that 's a great way to completely destroy the engine .
How about you do what you always do when you want to slow down ?
Push the fucking brake !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What is with all these crazy people suggesting that you should shift into neutral?
With a floored accelerator, that's a great way to completely destroy the engine.
How about you do what you always do when you want to slow down?
Push the fucking brake!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975088</id>
	<title>Re:missing option Manual Transmission</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264940820000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If it takes dedicated use of all four limbs to drive a manual, you're doing it wrong. After not very long, shifting becomes second nature.</htmltext>
<tokenext>If it takes dedicated use of all four limbs to drive a manual , you 're doing it wrong .
After not very long , shifting becomes second nature .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If it takes dedicated use of all four limbs to drive a manual, you're doing it wrong.
After not very long, shifting becomes second nature.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974196</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974192</id>
	<title>Re:missing option Manual Transmission</title>
	<author>Hurricane78</author>
	<datestamp>1264934940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Is Germany, only pussies drive automatic cars. And we laugh at them. They&rsquo;re for people who can&rsquo;t drive.<br>Really. Automatic cars are the exception here. And for good reasons.<br>Try playing Richard Burns Rally with automatic gear shifting, and you will see them.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is Germany , only pussies drive automatic cars .
And we laugh at them .
They    re for people who can    t drive.Really .
Automatic cars are the exception here .
And for good reasons.Try playing Richard Burns Rally with automatic gear shifting , and you will see them .
: )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is Germany, only pussies drive automatic cars.
And we laugh at them.
They’re for people who can’t drive.Really.
Automatic cars are the exception here.
And for good reasons.Try playing Richard Burns Rally with automatic gear shifting, and you will see them.
:)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973398</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975672</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>0100010001010011</author>
	<datestamp>1264944240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Lets be honest, Heel/Toe style driving is reserved for rally drivers. I know of almost no one that can actually heel toe.</p><p>I use either the parking brake or just accept a slight bit of rollback while I mash the accelerator and letup on the clutch.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Lets be honest , Heel/Toe style driving is reserved for rally drivers .
I know of almost no one that can actually heel toe.I use either the parking brake or just accept a slight bit of rollback while I mash the accelerator and letup on the clutch .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Lets be honest, Heel/Toe style driving is reserved for rally drivers.
I know of almost no one that can actually heel toe.I use either the parking brake or just accept a slight bit of rollback while I mash the accelerator and letup on the clutch.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973582</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30980694</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>CausticPuppy</author>
	<datestamp>1265037840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"Just need to solve hills where the driver may need throttle and brake simultaneously to start moving, and it should work."</p><p>That problem has already been solved, too.  Some manual transmission cars have a "hill start assist" that hold the brakes for a couple seconds to allow easy starts up hills, without rolling backwards.  The brakes are released the instant any forward force is detected.  It makes starting uphill virtually identical to starting on a level surface.  Seems like that should be applicable to auto transmissions as well, which can also roll back a bit before the torque converter locks up.</p><p>I like the idea of having a purely mechanical way of removing power to the wheels, which can be done instantaneously in a panic; and that is why I don't trust cars with fewer than 3 pedals!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" Just need to solve hills where the driver may need throttle and brake simultaneously to start moving , and it should work .
" That problem has already been solved , too .
Some manual transmission cars have a " hill start assist " that hold the brakes for a couple seconds to allow easy starts up hills , without rolling backwards .
The brakes are released the instant any forward force is detected .
It makes starting uphill virtually identical to starting on a level surface .
Seems like that should be applicable to auto transmissions as well , which can also roll back a bit before the torque converter locks up.I like the idea of having a purely mechanical way of removing power to the wheels , which can be done instantaneously in a panic ; and that is why I do n't trust cars with fewer than 3 pedals !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"Just need to solve hills where the driver may need throttle and brake simultaneously to start moving, and it should work.
"That problem has already been solved, too.
Some manual transmission cars have a "hill start assist" that hold the brakes for a couple seconds to allow easy starts up hills, without rolling backwards.
The brakes are released the instant any forward force is detected.
It makes starting uphill virtually identical to starting on a level surface.
Seems like that should be applicable to auto transmissions as well, which can also roll back a bit before the torque converter locks up.I like the idea of having a purely mechanical way of removing power to the wheels, which can be done instantaneously in a panic; and that is why I don't trust cars with fewer than 3 pedals!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973370</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30984658</id>
	<title>Re:missing option Manual Transmission</title>
	<author>MrPhilby</author>
	<datestamp>1265054100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I just finished changing my brake pads and forgot to press the pedal before I reversed downhill from my garage. I had no brakes and only yanking hard on the parking brake stopped a collision with my house.

Your license to be self righteous is hereby revoked.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I just finished changing my brake pads and forgot to press the pedal before I reversed downhill from my garage .
I had no brakes and only yanking hard on the parking brake stopped a collision with my house .
Your license to be self righteous is hereby revoked .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I just finished changing my brake pads and forgot to press the pedal before I reversed downhill from my garage.
I had no brakes and only yanking hard on the parking brake stopped a collision with my house.
Your license to be self righteous is hereby revoked.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975214</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974200</id>
	<title>Re:Misleading story...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264934940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>By all accounts I can find, the issue with the Toyota's sticky gas pedal is a MECHANICAL one - not some electrical bug.</p></div><p>Unfortunately witness experience point to a problem that can't possibly be explained with a mechanical failure. The pedal is up, while gas is suddenly on max. Toyota is probably having issue to reproduce the issue and is going at whatever they think the problem is.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>By all accounts I can find , the issue with the Toyota 's sticky gas pedal is a MECHANICAL one - not some electrical bug.Unfortunately witness experience point to a problem that ca n't possibly be explained with a mechanical failure .
The pedal is up , while gas is suddenly on max .
Toyota is probably having issue to reproduce the issue and is going at whatever they think the problem is .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>By all accounts I can find, the issue with the Toyota's sticky gas pedal is a MECHANICAL one - not some electrical bug.Unfortunately witness experience point to a problem that can't possibly be explained with a mechanical failure.
The pedal is up, while gas is suddenly on max.
Toyota is probably having issue to reproduce the issue and is going at whatever they think the problem is.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973226</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30977794</id>
	<title>Re:Ford 'cruise control terror driver' excellent l</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264963740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Did the police try a spike strip?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Did the police try a spike strip ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Did the police try a spike strip?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974502</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973582</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>micheas</author>
	<datestamp>1264931760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>There is still no excuse for Toyota not coding the ECU to cut throttle when it senses that the driver has BOTH the throttle and the brakes on simultaneously.</p></div><p>Steps for starting a manual transmission car pointed up a steep grade:</p><ol> <li>Press brake pedal Hard</li><li>Release Parking Brake</li><li>Depress Clutch</li><li>Start Engine</li><li> <b>Depress throttle without releasing the brake (Heal on break, toes on throttle)</b> </li><li>Release Clutch and break smothly so the car does not roll backwards.</li></ol><p>Do you see the problem with your solution?</p><p>The real world is messy.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>There is still no excuse for Toyota not coding the ECU to cut throttle when it senses that the driver has BOTH the throttle and the brakes on simultaneously.Steps for starting a manual transmission car pointed up a steep grade : Press brake pedal HardRelease Parking BrakeDepress ClutchStart Engine Depress throttle without releasing the brake ( Heal on break , toes on throttle ) Release Clutch and break smothly so the car does not roll backwards.Do you see the problem with your solution ? The real world is messy .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There is still no excuse for Toyota not coding the ECU to cut throttle when it senses that the driver has BOTH the throttle and the brakes on simultaneously.Steps for starting a manual transmission car pointed up a steep grade: Press brake pedal HardRelease Parking BrakeDepress ClutchStart Engine Depress throttle without releasing the brake (Heal on break, toes on throttle) Release Clutch and break smothly so the car does not roll backwards.Do you see the problem with your solution?The real world is messy.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973228</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30978258</id>
	<title>Re:Moving too fast</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265057160000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>&gt;&gt;It makes me want to buy an American car.</p><p>Maybe you should look the safety records of American cars first.</p><p>All cars and car companies have problems.  A few years ago Fords were accelerating out of control when drivers hit the gas instead of the brakes.  There are massive attention getting recalls every few years for things like explosion hazards and brake failures.  All manufactures are eventually in the spotlight for the wrong reasons.</p><p>Today is Toyota's day and from their mistakes everyone learns and cars get better.  It doesn't mean you should do something so drastic as buy American.</p><p>(I kid, but only a little)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>&gt; &gt; It makes me want to buy an American car.Maybe you should look the safety records of American cars first.All cars and car companies have problems .
A few years ago Fords were accelerating out of control when drivers hit the gas instead of the brakes .
There are massive attention getting recalls every few years for things like explosion hazards and brake failures .
All manufactures are eventually in the spotlight for the wrong reasons.Today is Toyota 's day and from their mistakes everyone learns and cars get better .
It does n't mean you should do something so drastic as buy American .
( I kid , but only a little )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>&gt;&gt;It makes me want to buy an American car.Maybe you should look the safety records of American cars first.All cars and car companies have problems.
A few years ago Fords were accelerating out of control when drivers hit the gas instead of the brakes.
There are massive attention getting recalls every few years for things like explosion hazards and brake failures.
All manufactures are eventually in the spotlight for the wrong reasons.Today is Toyota's day and from their mistakes everyone learns and cars get better.
It doesn't mean you should do something so drastic as buy American.
(I kid, but only a little)</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973326</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973778</id>
	<title>So</title>
	<author>AnAdventurer</author>
	<datestamp>1264932840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Are we going to blame Microsoft for causing cars to crash (finally) because of their crappy software?</htmltext>
<tokenext>Are we going to blame Microsoft for causing cars to crash ( finally ) because of their crappy software ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Are we going to blame Microsoft for causing cars to crash (finally) because of their crappy software?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30977450</id>
	<title>Skynet!</title>
	<author>p51d007</author>
	<datestamp>1264960200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I think skynet is finally starting to launch its attack<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)

Fly by wire is nice, but unless it is 100\% reliable, you need to can it.
Remember what happened to the first Airbus with fly by wire?  They did a low approach over
the runway, the airplane thought it was suppose to land, and the fly by wire didn't allow it to
climb out, and it crashed into a forest.</htmltext>
<tokenext>I think skynet is finally starting to launch its attack ; ) Fly by wire is nice , but unless it is 100 \ % reliable , you need to can it .
Remember what happened to the first Airbus with fly by wire ?
They did a low approach over the runway , the airplane thought it was suppose to land , and the fly by wire did n't allow it to climb out , and it crashed into a forest .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I think skynet is finally starting to launch its attack ;)

Fly by wire is nice, but unless it is 100\% reliable, you need to can it.
Remember what happened to the first Airbus with fly by wire?
They did a low approach over
the runway, the airplane thought it was suppose to land, and the fly by wire didn't allow it to
climb out, and it crashed into a forest.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974884</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264939380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p> <a href="http://www.autoblog.com/2010/01/29/video-in-depth-look-at-toyotas-sticky-accelerator/" title="autoblog.com" rel="nofollow">All drive by wire VW/Audis are setup this way.</a> [autoblog.com]</p></div><p>Electric bicycles are setup that way.  Talk about a no-brainer.</p><p>One thing that always makes me wonder: after more than a century, they still haven't standardized the controls in cars.  Every time you get into a new car, you have to learn an entire new set of controls.  Except for the steering wheel and two (or three) pedals, everything else is different between makers and between models in some cases.  Meanwhile, if I go from an old tape player to the latest MP3 player, I find the same controls in use.  Maybe it's time for a little sense in the auto industry.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>All drive by wire VW/Audis are setup this way .
[ autoblog.com ] Electric bicycles are setup that way .
Talk about a no-brainer.One thing that always makes me wonder : after more than a century , they still have n't standardized the controls in cars .
Every time you get into a new car , you have to learn an entire new set of controls .
Except for the steering wheel and two ( or three ) pedals , everything else is different between makers and between models in some cases .
Meanwhile , if I go from an old tape player to the latest MP3 player , I find the same controls in use .
Maybe it 's time for a little sense in the auto industry .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> All drive by wire VW/Audis are setup this way.
[autoblog.com]Electric bicycles are setup that way.
Talk about a no-brainer.One thing that always makes me wonder: after more than a century, they still haven't standardized the controls in cars.
Every time you get into a new car, you have to learn an entire new set of controls.
Except for the steering wheel and two (or three) pedals, everything else is different between makers and between models in some cases.
Meanwhile, if I go from an old tape player to the latest MP3 player, I find the same controls in use.
Maybe it's time for a little sense in the auto industry.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973228</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973706</id>
	<title>Re:Camry Hybrid &amp; drive by wire</title>
	<author>Quantumstate</author>
	<datestamp>1264932360000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That mpg isn't much to be proud of by UK standards.  We have a non hybrid ford focus diesel estate and got 68 mpg (UK) which is 57 mpg (US) going to Scotland (long distance trip).  I think we average 55-60 (45-50 US) mpg during normal driving which involves a bit of dual carriageway and some town.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That mpg is n't much to be proud of by UK standards .
We have a non hybrid ford focus diesel estate and got 68 mpg ( UK ) which is 57 mpg ( US ) going to Scotland ( long distance trip ) .
I think we average 55-60 ( 45-50 US ) mpg during normal driving which involves a bit of dual carriageway and some town .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That mpg isn't much to be proud of by UK standards.
We have a non hybrid ford focus diesel estate and got 68 mpg (UK) which is 57 mpg (US) going to Scotland (long distance trip).
I think we average 55-60 (45-50 US) mpg during normal driving which involves a bit of dual carriageway and some town.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973422</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973878</id>
	<title>No. It's a SOFTWARE Problem</title>
	<author>rebelscience</author>
	<datestamp>1264933380000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The gas pedal program should be intelligent enough to notice a malfunction like a sticky pedal and react accordingly. Mechanical failure is a given because of wear and tear and other factors. Software should never fail.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The gas pedal program should be intelligent enough to notice a malfunction like a sticky pedal and react accordingly .
Mechanical failure is a given because of wear and tear and other factors .
Software should never fail .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The gas pedal program should be intelligent enough to notice a malfunction like a sticky pedal and react accordingly.
Mechanical failure is a given because of wear and tear and other factors.
Software should never fail.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973226</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974008</id>
	<title>Re:missing option Manual Transmission</title>
	<author>markdavis</author>
	<datestamp>1264933980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>And a nearly exact same function is available in an automatic- it is called PUT THE TRANSMISSION IN NEUTRAL!!</p><p>Options:</p><p>1) Neutral (I have yet to see a car without one)<br>2) Brakes (which will fade if not applied hard and soon enough)<br>3) Emergency/Parking brakes (not very powerful, but helps)<br>4) Cut ignition (on some cars- must be in neutral first)</p><p>I am sorry, but I simply *refuse* to believe that all 4 options were unavailable to the people having major run-away car problems from what was most probably a mechanical problem with the throttle pedal.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And a nearly exact same function is available in an automatic- it is called PUT THE TRANSMISSION IN NEUTRAL !
! Options : 1 ) Neutral ( I have yet to see a car without one ) 2 ) Brakes ( which will fade if not applied hard and soon enough ) 3 ) Emergency/Parking brakes ( not very powerful , but helps ) 4 ) Cut ignition ( on some cars- must be in neutral first ) I am sorry , but I simply * refuse * to believe that all 4 options were unavailable to the people having major run-away car problems from what was most probably a mechanical problem with the throttle pedal .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And a nearly exact same function is available in an automatic- it is called PUT THE TRANSMISSION IN NEUTRAL!
!Options:1) Neutral (I have yet to see a car without one)2) Brakes (which will fade if not applied hard and soon enough)3) Emergency/Parking brakes (not very powerful, but helps)4) Cut ignition (on some cars- must be in neutral first)I am sorry, but I simply *refuse* to believe that all 4 options were unavailable to the people having major run-away car problems from what was most probably a mechanical problem with the throttle pedal.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973398</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30991648</id>
	<title>Re:Camry Hybrid &amp; drive by wire</title>
	<author>kitezh</author>
	<datestamp>1265046480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Don't forget that the US gallon is smaller than the imperial gallon, too.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Do n't forget that the US gallon is smaller than the imperial gallon , too .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Don't forget that the US gallon is smaller than the imperial gallon, too.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973706</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974894</id>
	<title>Re:Misleading story...</title>
	<author>bcrowell</author>
	<datestamp>1264939440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>By all accounts I can find, the issue with the Toyota's sticky gas pedal is a MECHANICAL one - not some electrical bug.</p></div>
</blockquote><p>
<a href="http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-pedal30-2010jan30,0,4401302.story" title="latimes.com">This article</a> [latimes.com] in the LA Times says a lot of knowledgeable people don't believe that. E.g., "A wide group of national automotive experts say there is strong evidence that a hidden electronic problem must account for at least some, if not most, of the Toyota sudden-acceleration events."
</p><p>
We have a Prius, and the electronic stuff does not inspire my confidence. It's a really crappy, poorly designed UI. My wife, my sister, and I have all drained the 12-volt battery at various times. We think it's because we didn't do the shutdown procedure in the right order, but we're not sure. There have been times when the car was non-operational, and we couldn't get it to release the key, so we had to leave the key in the ignition while the car was parked. (And there's another thing that is not a design issue, but -- the used car dealer revealed to us after we signed the contract that they only had one key to give us. A second key costs $500. If you lose your only key, it's $1000 to replace it.)
</p><p>
I like the car in general, but god, I wish it had an ordinary old-fasioned non-electronic key and ignition system. I'd have a lot more confidence in it.
</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>By all accounts I can find , the issue with the Toyota 's sticky gas pedal is a MECHANICAL one - not some electrical bug .
This article [ latimes.com ] in the LA Times says a lot of knowledgeable people do n't believe that .
E.g. , " A wide group of national automotive experts say there is strong evidence that a hidden electronic problem must account for at least some , if not most , of the Toyota sudden-acceleration events .
" We have a Prius , and the electronic stuff does not inspire my confidence .
It 's a really crappy , poorly designed UI .
My wife , my sister , and I have all drained the 12-volt battery at various times .
We think it 's because we did n't do the shutdown procedure in the right order , but we 're not sure .
There have been times when the car was non-operational , and we could n't get it to release the key , so we had to leave the key in the ignition while the car was parked .
( And there 's another thing that is not a design issue , but -- the used car dealer revealed to us after we signed the contract that they only had one key to give us .
A second key costs $ 500 .
If you lose your only key , it 's $ 1000 to replace it .
) I like the car in general , but god , I wish it had an ordinary old-fasioned non-electronic key and ignition system .
I 'd have a lot more confidence in it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>By all accounts I can find, the issue with the Toyota's sticky gas pedal is a MECHANICAL one - not some electrical bug.
This article [latimes.com] in the LA Times says a lot of knowledgeable people don't believe that.
E.g., "A wide group of national automotive experts say there is strong evidence that a hidden electronic problem must account for at least some, if not most, of the Toyota sudden-acceleration events.
"

We have a Prius, and the electronic stuff does not inspire my confidence.
It's a really crappy, poorly designed UI.
My wife, my sister, and I have all drained the 12-volt battery at various times.
We think it's because we didn't do the shutdown procedure in the right order, but we're not sure.
There have been times when the car was non-operational, and we couldn't get it to release the key, so we had to leave the key in the ignition while the car was parked.
(And there's another thing that is not a design issue, but -- the used car dealer revealed to us after we signed the contract that they only had one key to give us.
A second key costs $500.
If you lose your only key, it's $1000 to replace it.
)

I like the car in general, but god, I wish it had an ordinary old-fasioned non-electronic key and ignition system.
I'd have a lot more confidence in it.

	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973226</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973494</id>
	<title>Re:Stupid summary, stupid story</title>
	<author>hitmark</author>
	<datestamp>1264931400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>probably because the push to get more efficient engines have lead to computerized direct injection systems, that can vary the exact mixture, while at the same time take orders from the pedal about the overall throttle level.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>probably because the push to get more efficient engines have lead to computerized direct injection systems , that can vary the exact mixture , while at the same time take orders from the pedal about the overall throttle level .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>probably because the push to get more efficient engines have lead to computerized direct injection systems, that can vary the exact mixture, while at the same time take orders from the pedal about the overall throttle level.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973378</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973410</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>Renraku</author>
	<datestamp>1264931040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Troll</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Toyota and Honda apparently don't test their software too well.  They refuse to use conflict testing for some reason.  That is, if multiple parts are giving impossibly different answers, such as engine full on brakes full on speed 80mph and not slowing down, the computer has to make a decision.</p><p>Of course, I heard this on Reddit so it could have been pulled out of someone's ass..</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Toyota and Honda apparently do n't test their software too well .
They refuse to use conflict testing for some reason .
That is , if multiple parts are giving impossibly different answers , such as engine full on brakes full on speed 80mph and not slowing down , the computer has to make a decision.Of course , I heard this on Reddit so it could have been pulled out of someone 's ass. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Toyota and Honda apparently don't test their software too well.
They refuse to use conflict testing for some reason.
That is, if multiple parts are giving impossibly different answers, such as engine full on brakes full on speed 80mph and not slowing down, the computer has to make a decision.Of course, I heard this on Reddit so it could have been pulled out of someone's ass..</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973228</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974640</id>
	<title>flybywire?</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264937640000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>crashbywire is more accurate</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>crashbywire is more accurate</tokentext>
<sentencetext>crashbywire is more accurate</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975360</id>
	<title>Re:Doesn't matter if issue is electronic or mechan</title>
	<author>couchslug</author>
	<datestamp>1264942440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Too late for the key switch, which has controlled relays downstream for many years.</p><p>At least it can cut the power to some systems, but (see the infamous Ford cruise control switch) lots'o'hots remain even with the key removed.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Too late for the key switch , which has controlled relays downstream for many years.At least it can cut the power to some systems , but ( see the infamous Ford cruise control switch ) lots'o'hots remain even with the key removed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Too late for the key switch, which has controlled relays downstream for many years.At least it can cut the power to some systems, but (see the infamous Ford cruise control switch) lots'o'hots remain even with the key removed.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973290</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30978718</id>
	<title>Re:I design computer hardware and software...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265019720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Why are you nervous when flying on what any aviation expert will tell you are the safest aircraft in the world?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Why are you nervous when flying on what any aviation expert will tell you are the safest aircraft in the world ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Why are you nervous when flying on what any aviation expert will tell you are the safest aircraft in the world?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973584</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974598</id>
	<title>Re:Camry Hybrid &amp; drive by wire</title>
	<author>MagusSlurpy</author>
	<datestamp>1264937400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>(i haven't been anywhere to try at 85 mph yet, speed limits around here stop at 75).</p></div><p>And you call yourself a Texan. . .</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>( i have n't been anywhere to try at 85 mph yet , speed limits around here stop at 75 ) .And you call yourself a Texan .
. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>(i haven't been anywhere to try at 85 mph yet, speed limits around here stop at 75).And you call yourself a Texan.
. .
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973422</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30977200</id>
	<title>Re:Pure electric vehicles</title>
	<author>shutdown -p now</author>
	<datestamp>1264957800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><nobr> <wbr></nobr></p><div class="quote"><p>... things like a neutral gear don't even have to physically exist.</p></div><p>Well, maybe we need some mandatory safety standards that specifically say that mechanical neutral gear <em>should</em> exist.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>... things like a neutral gear do n't even have to physically exist.Well , maybe we need some mandatory safety standards that specifically say that mechanical neutral gear should exist .</tokentext>
<sentencetext> ... things like a neutral gear don't even have to physically exist.Well, maybe we need some mandatory safety standards that specifically say that mechanical neutral gear should exist.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973810</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974084</id>
	<title>Mechanical systems have this problem too...</title>
	<author>jafo</author>
	<datestamp>1264934340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>If you think it's a problem with these Toyotas, a couple of years ago I saw it happen to a supercharged F-150 Lightning.  This is one of their high performance model trucks, which was apparently producing over 600BHP.  And it had gone through a safety inspection earlier that day.<br><br>Throttle return springs are, I gather, a not entirely uncommon failure point.  It's a specific line item check on Club Time Trials; I know this because the inspector and I had to try to figure out how to inspect the throttle return spring on my Audi, which also has a "fly by wire" throttle.  It never came up specifically on Autocross, probably because they've seen it before (CTT had around 8 cars at it, AutoX has 200).<br><br>A lot of people have been pretty hard on the "computer control" aspect of this, which I believe is missing the point.  There were some computer related issues that made this worse, like it being push-button start and just confusing people as to how to turn the damn thing off.  But the reports are that this was a mechanical failure that is almost exactly like the common failure mode of a traditional, mechanical, throttle.<br><br>Unlike a mechanical throttle, the computer controlled throttle at least has the opportunity to say "Hey, I know the throttle is telling me to go, but I see that the parking brake has been pulled and/or the brake pedal, so I'm going to cut the throttle.<br><br>I've given this some thought and considering it all, I'd rather have the smarter computer-controlled throttle.<br><br>Sean</htmltext>
<tokenext>If you think it 's a problem with these Toyotas , a couple of years ago I saw it happen to a supercharged F-150 Lightning .
This is one of their high performance model trucks , which was apparently producing over 600BHP .
And it had gone through a safety inspection earlier that day.Throttle return springs are , I gather , a not entirely uncommon failure point .
It 's a specific line item check on Club Time Trials ; I know this because the inspector and I had to try to figure out how to inspect the throttle return spring on my Audi , which also has a " fly by wire " throttle .
It never came up specifically on Autocross , probably because they 've seen it before ( CTT had around 8 cars at it , AutoX has 200 ) .A lot of people have been pretty hard on the " computer control " aspect of this , which I believe is missing the point .
There were some computer related issues that made this worse , like it being push-button start and just confusing people as to how to turn the damn thing off .
But the reports are that this was a mechanical failure that is almost exactly like the common failure mode of a traditional , mechanical , throttle.Unlike a mechanical throttle , the computer controlled throttle at least has the opportunity to say " Hey , I know the throttle is telling me to go , but I see that the parking brake has been pulled and/or the brake pedal , so I 'm going to cut the throttle.I 've given this some thought and considering it all , I 'd rather have the smarter computer-controlled throttle.Sean</tokentext>
<sentencetext>If you think it's a problem with these Toyotas, a couple of years ago I saw it happen to a supercharged F-150 Lightning.
This is one of their high performance model trucks, which was apparently producing over 600BHP.
And it had gone through a safety inspection earlier that day.Throttle return springs are, I gather, a not entirely uncommon failure point.
It's a specific line item check on Club Time Trials; I know this because the inspector and I had to try to figure out how to inspect the throttle return spring on my Audi, which also has a "fly by wire" throttle.
It never came up specifically on Autocross, probably because they've seen it before (CTT had around 8 cars at it, AutoX has 200).A lot of people have been pretty hard on the "computer control" aspect of this, which I believe is missing the point.
There were some computer related issues that made this worse, like it being push-button start and just confusing people as to how to turn the damn thing off.
But the reports are that this was a mechanical failure that is almost exactly like the common failure mode of a traditional, mechanical, throttle.Unlike a mechanical throttle, the computer controlled throttle at least has the opportunity to say "Hey, I know the throttle is telling me to go, but I see that the parking brake has been pulled and/or the brake pedal, so I'm going to cut the throttle.I've given this some thought and considering it all, I'd rather have the smarter computer-controlled throttle.Sean</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30976458</id>
	<title>Re:Moving too fast</title>
	<author>Blakey Rat</author>
	<datestamp>1264949880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Where's the bad analogy? I feel cheated.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Where 's the bad analogy ?
I feel cheated .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Where's the bad analogy?
I feel cheated.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973326</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30976706</id>
	<title>Electronics bashing is fun, but...</title>
	<author>slimjim8094</author>
	<datestamp>1264952400000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Just remember that cars haven't been controlled by your own grit for a while now. I'm talking primarily about power steering and brakes.</p><p>Let me explain. I'm an EMT, and I drive a 14,000 pound ambulance. It's a box mounted to a F-350 (diesel) chassis made by Ford. It's really quite comfortable.</p><p>Last summer, I had the fan (serpentine) belt break on me. This powers the cooling pump and fan, the primary alternator (secondary is on a separate belt), power brakes and steering, and the AC. It turns out it was a frozen AC compressor that burned through the belt.</p><p>In any case, the vehicle was <i>not controllable</i> at even a few miles an hour. Thankfully, the belt broke in the hospital parking lot, but even going 10 miles an hour to leave was enough to make the vehicle not stop, even using all my weight and strength. We were rolling up an incline, so it was fine, but we were not decelerating the vehicle in a meaningful way.</p><p>Second, the power steering is a necessity for a vehicle of that size. You can wrestle the wheel without it, but it takes a lot of work and therefore a lot more time to turn the wheel. Couple that with the almost-complete loss of brakes, and you've got problems.</p><p>We were fine, got into a safe spot, and got a tow. But had we been going down the curvy highway from a few minutes before, I am convinced we would have been killed. I could not have kept the turns on that road, nor avoided the cars without brakes.</p><p>My point is, we already rely so much on mechanical systems. That's what the problem was in this case. It's easy to cry "no fly by wire" because it's harder to understand than a linkage, but it may not be less safe. The ability of electronical systems to self-monitor is something that your standard throttle can't do.</p><p>In the end, perhaps we should combine the two, something like a dead-man's switch? The ECU sends a pulse to a relay every half-second as part of it's main loop - if that relay doesn't like what it hears, it releases a spring that closes the throttle. If the ECU crashes, it doesn't send the pulse and the car slows.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Just remember that cars have n't been controlled by your own grit for a while now .
I 'm talking primarily about power steering and brakes.Let me explain .
I 'm an EMT , and I drive a 14,000 pound ambulance .
It 's a box mounted to a F-350 ( diesel ) chassis made by Ford .
It 's really quite comfortable.Last summer , I had the fan ( serpentine ) belt break on me .
This powers the cooling pump and fan , the primary alternator ( secondary is on a separate belt ) , power brakes and steering , and the AC .
It turns out it was a frozen AC compressor that burned through the belt.In any case , the vehicle was not controllable at even a few miles an hour .
Thankfully , the belt broke in the hospital parking lot , but even going 10 miles an hour to leave was enough to make the vehicle not stop , even using all my weight and strength .
We were rolling up an incline , so it was fine , but we were not decelerating the vehicle in a meaningful way.Second , the power steering is a necessity for a vehicle of that size .
You can wrestle the wheel without it , but it takes a lot of work and therefore a lot more time to turn the wheel .
Couple that with the almost-complete loss of brakes , and you 've got problems.We were fine , got into a safe spot , and got a tow .
But had we been going down the curvy highway from a few minutes before , I am convinced we would have been killed .
I could not have kept the turns on that road , nor avoided the cars without brakes.My point is , we already rely so much on mechanical systems .
That 's what the problem was in this case .
It 's easy to cry " no fly by wire " because it 's harder to understand than a linkage , but it may not be less safe .
The ability of electronical systems to self-monitor is something that your standard throttle ca n't do.In the end , perhaps we should combine the two , something like a dead-man 's switch ?
The ECU sends a pulse to a relay every half-second as part of it 's main loop - if that relay does n't like what it hears , it releases a spring that closes the throttle .
If the ECU crashes , it does n't send the pulse and the car slows .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just remember that cars haven't been controlled by your own grit for a while now.
I'm talking primarily about power steering and brakes.Let me explain.
I'm an EMT, and I drive a 14,000 pound ambulance.
It's a box mounted to a F-350 (diesel) chassis made by Ford.
It's really quite comfortable.Last summer, I had the fan (serpentine) belt break on me.
This powers the cooling pump and fan, the primary alternator (secondary is on a separate belt), power brakes and steering, and the AC.
It turns out it was a frozen AC compressor that burned through the belt.In any case, the vehicle was not controllable at even a few miles an hour.
Thankfully, the belt broke in the hospital parking lot, but even going 10 miles an hour to leave was enough to make the vehicle not stop, even using all my weight and strength.
We were rolling up an incline, so it was fine, but we were not decelerating the vehicle in a meaningful way.Second, the power steering is a necessity for a vehicle of that size.
You can wrestle the wheel without it, but it takes a lot of work and therefore a lot more time to turn the wheel.
Couple that with the almost-complete loss of brakes, and you've got problems.We were fine, got into a safe spot, and got a tow.
But had we been going down the curvy highway from a few minutes before, I am convinced we would have been killed.
I could not have kept the turns on that road, nor avoided the cars without brakes.My point is, we already rely so much on mechanical systems.
That's what the problem was in this case.
It's easy to cry "no fly by wire" because it's harder to understand than a linkage, but it may not be less safe.
The ability of electronical systems to self-monitor is something that your standard throttle can't do.In the end, perhaps we should combine the two, something like a dead-man's switch?
The ECU sends a pulse to a relay every half-second as part of it's main loop - if that relay doesn't like what it hears, it releases a spring that closes the throttle.
If the ECU crashes, it doesn't send the pulse and the car slows.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973276</id>
	<title>What?</title>
	<author>RockMFR</author>
	<datestamp>1264930320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>Title: "<i>Electronics parts = Toyota woes</i>"<br>
Article: "<i>condensation from heaters caused increased friction in the gas pedal, making it stick in some cases, making the problem a mechanical one and not an issue of electronics.</i>"<br> <br>
So electronics had nothing to do with it at all. And their suggestion that the complexity of electronics made this issue harder to diagnose isn't backed up at all.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Title : " Electronics parts = Toyota woes " Article : " condensation from heaters caused increased friction in the gas pedal , making it stick in some cases , making the problem a mechanical one and not an issue of electronics .
" So electronics had nothing to do with it at all .
And their suggestion that the complexity of electronics made this issue harder to diagnose is n't backed up at all .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Title: "Electronics parts = Toyota woes"
Article: "condensation from heaters caused increased friction in the gas pedal, making it stick in some cases, making the problem a mechanical one and not an issue of electronics.
" 
So electronics had nothing to do with it at all.
And their suggestion that the complexity of electronics made this issue harder to diagnose isn't backed up at all.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30979772</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>Fahrvergnuugen</author>
	<datestamp>1265033460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It is prettying simple actually - just take a reading from the vehicle speed sensor. If you're going less than 10mph, no automatic throttle cut.</p><p>This is something VW figured out 10 years ago.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It is prettying simple actually - just take a reading from the vehicle speed sensor .
If you 're going less than 10mph , no automatic throttle cut.This is something VW figured out 10 years ago .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It is prettying simple actually - just take a reading from the vehicle speed sensor.
If you're going less than 10mph, no automatic throttle cut.This is something VW figured out 10 years ago.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973582</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974688</id>
	<title>This is pure speculation, but my gut says ECM</title>
	<author>ChangeOnInstall</author>
	<datestamp>1264938060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This may well be speculative crap, but at least based on the anecdotal incidents I keep hearing about, this sounds like an ECM problem.</p><p>First Toyota blamed floor mats.  That immediately causes consumers to think that the problem was the fault of idiot drivers, not Toyota itself.  The typical person's reaction would rightfully be something along the lines of "duh, if you stack floormats under the accelerator, it's going to stick...this is not Toyota's fault".</p><p>Now Toyota blames the pedal.  And the pedal manufacturer.  Again a simple system that people understand...that can be labeled as obviously defective and replaced with something theoretically not defective, bringing about peace of mind.</p><p>Finally Toyota is going to "go the extra mile" and update the ECMs to cause pressing the brake to cut the throttle.  I imagine this is  an algorithmic (code) change to the ECM, not just new calibrations.  Apparently Toyota uses a  proprietary ECM that is not very "hackable".  That is, it's very closed in comparison to items like those in GMs and VW/Audis where there are cottage industries of tinkerers who have decompiled the code, modified calibrations for performance and economy, and even modified the algorithms themselves.  (You don't see things like VAGCOM or EFILive for Toyotas.)</p><p>Point being, if they update the ECM and it is all proprietary stuff and there's no easy way to diff it (or an adequate number of eyes to catch the difference) they can fix the problem and scapegoat the pedal manufacturer.  And potentially leave a lot of dangerous vehicles on the road to save face.</p><p>The biggest hole I can find in this idea is where I'm getting my data.  Random reports from people, a lot of whom seem to claim their vehicles accelerated from a stop.  And of course it's all stuff reported by the popular news media.  And of course a lot of folks who rear-ended someone in their Toyota are going to suggest anything other than their own actions being the cause.</p><p>But being a software developer, the more I hear about this, the more it stinks of software.  An ECM has too many variables to simulate all possible conditions, so you must rely on the algorithms to work correctly.  My gut says there's a tiny hole in there somewhere, where most users will never encounter it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This may well be speculative crap , but at least based on the anecdotal incidents I keep hearing about , this sounds like an ECM problem.First Toyota blamed floor mats .
That immediately causes consumers to think that the problem was the fault of idiot drivers , not Toyota itself .
The typical person 's reaction would rightfully be something along the lines of " duh , if you stack floormats under the accelerator , it 's going to stick...this is not Toyota 's fault " .Now Toyota blames the pedal .
And the pedal manufacturer .
Again a simple system that people understand...that can be labeled as obviously defective and replaced with something theoretically not defective , bringing about peace of mind.Finally Toyota is going to " go the extra mile " and update the ECMs to cause pressing the brake to cut the throttle .
I imagine this is an algorithmic ( code ) change to the ECM , not just new calibrations .
Apparently Toyota uses a proprietary ECM that is not very " hackable " .
That is , it 's very closed in comparison to items like those in GMs and VW/Audis where there are cottage industries of tinkerers who have decompiled the code , modified calibrations for performance and economy , and even modified the algorithms themselves .
( You do n't see things like VAGCOM or EFILive for Toyotas .
) Point being , if they update the ECM and it is all proprietary stuff and there 's no easy way to diff it ( or an adequate number of eyes to catch the difference ) they can fix the problem and scapegoat the pedal manufacturer .
And potentially leave a lot of dangerous vehicles on the road to save face.The biggest hole I can find in this idea is where I 'm getting my data .
Random reports from people , a lot of whom seem to claim their vehicles accelerated from a stop .
And of course it 's all stuff reported by the popular news media .
And of course a lot of folks who rear-ended someone in their Toyota are going to suggest anything other than their own actions being the cause.But being a software developer , the more I hear about this , the more it stinks of software .
An ECM has too many variables to simulate all possible conditions , so you must rely on the algorithms to work correctly .
My gut says there 's a tiny hole in there somewhere , where most users will never encounter it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This may well be speculative crap, but at least based on the anecdotal incidents I keep hearing about, this sounds like an ECM problem.First Toyota blamed floor mats.
That immediately causes consumers to think that the problem was the fault of idiot drivers, not Toyota itself.
The typical person's reaction would rightfully be something along the lines of "duh, if you stack floormats under the accelerator, it's going to stick...this is not Toyota's fault".Now Toyota blames the pedal.
And the pedal manufacturer.
Again a simple system that people understand...that can be labeled as obviously defective and replaced with something theoretically not defective, bringing about peace of mind.Finally Toyota is going to "go the extra mile" and update the ECMs to cause pressing the brake to cut the throttle.
I imagine this is  an algorithmic (code) change to the ECM, not just new calibrations.
Apparently Toyota uses a  proprietary ECM that is not very "hackable".
That is, it's very closed in comparison to items like those in GMs and VW/Audis where there are cottage industries of tinkerers who have decompiled the code, modified calibrations for performance and economy, and even modified the algorithms themselves.
(You don't see things like VAGCOM or EFILive for Toyotas.
)Point being, if they update the ECM and it is all proprietary stuff and there's no easy way to diff it (or an adequate number of eyes to catch the difference) they can fix the problem and scapegoat the pedal manufacturer.
And potentially leave a lot of dangerous vehicles on the road to save face.The biggest hole I can find in this idea is where I'm getting my data.
Random reports from people, a lot of whom seem to claim their vehicles accelerated from a stop.
And of course it's all stuff reported by the popular news media.
And of course a lot of folks who rear-ended someone in their Toyota are going to suggest anything other than their own actions being the cause.But being a software developer, the more I hear about this, the more it stinks of software.
An ECM has too many variables to simulate all possible conditions, so you must rely on the algorithms to work correctly.
My gut says there's a tiny hole in there somewhere, where most users will never encounter it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975394</id>
	<title>Re:missing option Manual Transmission</title>
	<author>briareus</author>
	<datestamp>1264942680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>You know that cars from modern times have them as well, right?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>You know that cars from modern times have them as well , right ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You know that cars from modern times have them as well, right?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973398</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974750</id>
	<title>Re:Camry Hybrid &amp; drive by wire</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264938420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Make sure you use the emergency brake on a regular basis. Otherwise it may corrode and not be available when you need it most.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Make sure you use the emergency brake on a regular basis .
Otherwise it may corrode and not be available when you need it most .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Make sure you use the emergency brake on a regular basis.
Otherwise it may corrode and not be available when you need it most.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973422</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975050</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264940580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In particular I have read the Nissans and other vehicles have the brake is applied will put the engine in idle option. Of course partly the decision not to do this is a left over from the old days when carb icing was a problem, so you needed to drive with one foot on the gas and one on the brake. (At the traffic signal you pushed the break and reved the engine a bit to keep in running, the brake most definitely held the car.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In particular I have read the Nissans and other vehicles have the brake is applied will put the engine in idle option .
Of course partly the decision not to do this is a left over from the old days when carb icing was a problem , so you needed to drive with one foot on the gas and one on the brake .
( At the traffic signal you pushed the break and reved the engine a bit to keep in running , the brake most definitely held the car .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In particular I have read the Nissans and other vehicles have the brake is applied will put the engine in idle option.
Of course partly the decision not to do this is a left over from the old days when carb icing was a problem, so you needed to drive with one foot on the gas and one on the brake.
(At the traffic signal you pushed the break and reved the engine a bit to keep in running, the brake most definitely held the car.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973228</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30979138</id>
	<title>Re:I design computer hardware and software...</title>
	<author>L4t3r4lu5</author>
	<datestamp>1265025780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>So, at no point did Airbus, or any of the manufacturers they purchase from, buy any transistors, resistors, chips, wires, or relays from a small Chinese firm which usually specialises in wristwatches and calculator parts?<br> <br>Murphy's Law's of War: Never forget that your equipment was made by the lowest bidder.</htmltext>
<tokenext>So , at no point did Airbus , or any of the manufacturers they purchase from , buy any transistors , resistors , chips , wires , or relays from a small Chinese firm which usually specialises in wristwatches and calculator parts ?
Murphy 's Law 's of War : Never forget that your equipment was made by the lowest bidder .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So, at no point did Airbus, or any of the manufacturers they purchase from, buy any transistors, resistors, chips, wires, or relays from a small Chinese firm which usually specialises in wristwatches and calculator parts?
Murphy's Law's of War: Never forget that your equipment was made by the lowest bidder.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974962</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30977648</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264962180000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I've had this happen on my matrix once.  I pushed the pedal down to moderate acceleration, and it followed the power curve like normal, then shot up way past where my foot ended.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've had this happen on my matrix once .
I pushed the pedal down to moderate acceleration , and it followed the power curve like normal , then shot up way past where my foot ended .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've had this happen on my matrix once.
I pushed the pedal down to moderate acceleration, and it followed the power curve like normal, then shot up way past where my foot ended.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973228</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973516</id>
	<title>Re:Stupid summary, stupid story</title>
	<author>rubycodez</author>
	<datestamp>1264931460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>No, you are stupid in failing to see big picture.  Hoses and hydraulics had many things to do with overall power delivery to wheels of traditional systems.  Ever heard of vacuum advance?  transmission modulator?  Those any many other "hose and hydraulic" functions are now done by computer.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>No , you are stupid in failing to see big picture .
Hoses and hydraulics had many things to do with overall power delivery to wheels of traditional systems .
Ever heard of vacuum advance ?
transmission modulator ?
Those any many other " hose and hydraulic " functions are now done by computer .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>No, you are stupid in failing to see big picture.
Hoses and hydraulics had many things to do with overall power delivery to wheels of traditional systems.
Ever heard of vacuum advance?
transmission modulator?
Those any many other "hose and hydraulic" functions are now done by computer.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973224</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973752</id>
	<title>Imaging having to "flash" upgrade your car!</title>
	<author>ALeader71</author>
	<datestamp>1264932600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Does this mean we'll have service packs for future autos?</p><p>Imagine the horror if Microsoft ports Windows to ECMs - Care to hack a car?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Does this mean we 'll have service packs for future autos ? Imagine the horror if Microsoft ports Windows to ECMs - Care to hack a car ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Does this mean we'll have service packs for future autos?Imagine the horror if Microsoft ports Windows to ECMs - Care to hack a car?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30976802</id>
	<title>Re:Moving too fast</title>
	<author>electrosoccertux</author>
	<datestamp>1264953780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>This is really a case of technology moving too fast for its own good.</p><p>The fundamental concept behind Japan's quality is <i>kaizen</i>. This is the constant improvement on existing techniques and technology. By starting with what works, it is simpler to build in very small steps without losing any quality along the way.</p><p>However, due to perceived pressures from non-Japanese automakers, companies like Toyota have begun bold initiatives to modernize their cars. The typical automotive embedded system is fairly simple (relatively speaking, of course). There are only a few inputs and only a few outputs and the systems are usually isolated from each other. However, as more features become desired, more interaction between isolated systems becomes a reality. The gas pedal used to only manage the amount of fuel fed to the injection valves. Nowadays it works in tandem with the brake system and suspension to manage tire slippage and traction control.</p><p>In this case, Toyota implemented a very complex system without a series of solid intermediate steps. The result is catastrophic failure when unforeseen interactions suddenly arise. If they were slowly adding features, they could immediately pinpoint the problematic interaction. However because they did it all at once they don't have any idea where the problem lies.</p><p>It makes me want to buy an American car.</p></div><p>They wouldn't be pressured if we would just let the bad companies fail.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is really a case of technology moving too fast for its own good.The fundamental concept behind Japan 's quality is kaizen .
This is the constant improvement on existing techniques and technology .
By starting with what works , it is simpler to build in very small steps without losing any quality along the way.However , due to perceived pressures from non-Japanese automakers , companies like Toyota have begun bold initiatives to modernize their cars .
The typical automotive embedded system is fairly simple ( relatively speaking , of course ) .
There are only a few inputs and only a few outputs and the systems are usually isolated from each other .
However , as more features become desired , more interaction between isolated systems becomes a reality .
The gas pedal used to only manage the amount of fuel fed to the injection valves .
Nowadays it works in tandem with the brake system and suspension to manage tire slippage and traction control.In this case , Toyota implemented a very complex system without a series of solid intermediate steps .
The result is catastrophic failure when unforeseen interactions suddenly arise .
If they were slowly adding features , they could immediately pinpoint the problematic interaction .
However because they did it all at once they do n't have any idea where the problem lies.It makes me want to buy an American car.They would n't be pressured if we would just let the bad companies fail .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is really a case of technology moving too fast for its own good.The fundamental concept behind Japan's quality is kaizen.
This is the constant improvement on existing techniques and technology.
By starting with what works, it is simpler to build in very small steps without losing any quality along the way.However, due to perceived pressures from non-Japanese automakers, companies like Toyota have begun bold initiatives to modernize their cars.
The typical automotive embedded system is fairly simple (relatively speaking, of course).
There are only a few inputs and only a few outputs and the systems are usually isolated from each other.
However, as more features become desired, more interaction between isolated systems becomes a reality.
The gas pedal used to only manage the amount of fuel fed to the injection valves.
Nowadays it works in tandem with the brake system and suspension to manage tire slippage and traction control.In this case, Toyota implemented a very complex system without a series of solid intermediate steps.
The result is catastrophic failure when unforeseen interactions suddenly arise.
If they were slowly adding features, they could immediately pinpoint the problematic interaction.
However because they did it all at once they don't have any idea where the problem lies.It makes me want to buy an American car.They wouldn't be pressured if we would just let the bad companies fail.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973326</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975028</id>
	<title>Description of the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264940340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>For what its worth, it does not seem to be a problem with electronics.</p><p>It is a mechanical component that failed.</p><p>Here is a description of the accelerator pedal problem that Toyota is having.</p><p>http://www.autoblog.com/2010/01/29/video-in-depth-look-at-toyotas-sticky-accelerator/</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>For what its worth , it does not seem to be a problem with electronics.It is a mechanical component that failed.Here is a description of the accelerator pedal problem that Toyota is having.http : //www.autoblog.com/2010/01/29/video-in-depth-look-at-toyotas-sticky-accelerator/</tokentext>
<sentencetext>For what its worth, it does not seem to be a problem with electronics.It is a mechanical component that failed.Here is a description of the accelerator pedal problem that Toyota is having.http://www.autoblog.com/2010/01/29/video-in-depth-look-at-toyotas-sticky-accelerator/</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975590</id>
	<title>Re:Shift into neutral, are you kidding?</title>
	<author>couchslug</author>
	<datestamp>1264943760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Better the engine than me, and most modern engines have rev limiters.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Better the engine than me , and most modern engines have rev limiters .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Better the engine than me, and most modern engines have rev limiters.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974534</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30977888</id>
	<title>Re:This is pure speculation, but my gut says ECM</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264965300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>my 1998 jeep gc had an ECM that failed, the engine wouldn't change gears, that is all that happened, driving in 2nd to the mechanic is fun</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>my 1998 jeep gc had an ECM that failed , the engine would n't change gears , that is all that happened , driving in 2nd to the mechanic is fun</tokentext>
<sentencetext>my 1998 jeep gc had an ECM that failed, the engine wouldn't change gears, that is all that happened, driving in 2nd to the mechanic is fun</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974688</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30977266</id>
	<title>New tag suggestion.</title>
	<author>theGhostPony</author>
	<datestamp>1264958520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>diebywire.</htmltext>
<tokenext>diebywire .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>diebywire.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973616</id>
	<title>Re:Stupid summary, stupid story</title>
	<author>winwar</author>
	<datestamp>1264931940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"A throttle really needs to be designed with safety in mind: IE, under-working not over-working. In other words, the car doesn't "go", never mind not accelerating."</p><p>To be fair, a mechanical cable fault can cause a wide open throttle condition (frayed cable).  I have been in such a car.</p><p>It appears that Toyota has the worst of both worlds without using the benefits of a computer.  They have a mechanical fault in a drive by wire system without an electronic override (safety feature).  As you said, so much for superior engineering.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" A throttle really needs to be designed with safety in mind : IE , under-working not over-working .
In other words , the car does n't " go " , never mind not accelerating .
" To be fair , a mechanical cable fault can cause a wide open throttle condition ( frayed cable ) .
I have been in such a car.It appears that Toyota has the worst of both worlds without using the benefits of a computer .
They have a mechanical fault in a drive by wire system without an electronic override ( safety feature ) .
As you said , so much for superior engineering .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>"A throttle really needs to be designed with safety in mind: IE, under-working not over-working.
In other words, the car doesn't "go", never mind not accelerating.
"To be fair, a mechanical cable fault can cause a wide open throttle condition (frayed cable).
I have been in such a car.It appears that Toyota has the worst of both worlds without using the benefits of a computer.
They have a mechanical fault in a drive by wire system without an electronic override (safety feature).
As you said, so much for superior engineering.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973378</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974280</id>
	<title>Discussing this topic is a waste of time...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264935300000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Since the available information is extremely sketchy.  In particular, the narrative of the San Diego accident appears so nonsensical that there must be a lot of missing information.  So almost every comment seems to be based on pure speculation (although that is par for the course on Slashdot).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Since the available information is extremely sketchy .
In particular , the narrative of the San Diego accident appears so nonsensical that there must be a lot of missing information .
So almost every comment seems to be based on pure speculation ( although that is par for the course on Slashdot ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Since the available information is extremely sketchy.
In particular, the narrative of the San Diego accident appears so nonsensical that there must be a lot of missing information.
So almost every comment seems to be based on pure speculation (although that is par for the course on Slashdot).</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973602</id>
	<title>Toyota Gas Pedal Fix Clears Regulators</title>
	<author>reporter</author>
	<datestamp>1264931880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>According to <a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704491604575035620392093224.html?mod=WSJ\_latestheadlines" title="wsj.com" rel="nofollow">a report</a> [wsj.com] just issued by the "Wall Street Journal", the engineers at Toyota have developed an improved pedal that supposedly fixes the problem causing Toyota cars to accelerate out of control.  American regulators have approved the fix, and Toyota will send it to dealers by February 8.  This fix allows the dealers to resume selling the 8 models of vehicles affected by the recall.
<br> <br>
However, a new angle to the problem recently surfaced, according to <a href="http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/30/safety-agency-is-investigating-gas-pedal-maker/" title="nytimes.com" rel="nofollow">a report</a> [nytimes.com] just issued by the "New York Times" on its blog.  CTS, which manufactures the throttle pedal for Toyota, claims that "<b>the slow-return pedal phenomenon, which may occur in extreme environmental conditions, should absolutely not be linked with any sudden, unintended acceleration incidents</b>".  In other words, though the pedal is defective, the defect did not cause the unintended acceleration.  CTS claims that it did not manufacture the pedals in older Toyota vehicles that exhibited the same acceleration problem.
<br> <br>
If CTS is telling the truth, then the actual problem may be the electronic throttle control, the so-called drive-by-wire system.</htmltext>
<tokenext>According to a report [ wsj.com ] just issued by the " Wall Street Journal " , the engineers at Toyota have developed an improved pedal that supposedly fixes the problem causing Toyota cars to accelerate out of control .
American regulators have approved the fix , and Toyota will send it to dealers by February 8 .
This fix allows the dealers to resume selling the 8 models of vehicles affected by the recall .
However , a new angle to the problem recently surfaced , according to a report [ nytimes.com ] just issued by the " New York Times " on its blog .
CTS , which manufactures the throttle pedal for Toyota , claims that " the slow-return pedal phenomenon , which may occur in extreme environmental conditions , should absolutely not be linked with any sudden , unintended acceleration incidents " .
In other words , though the pedal is defective , the defect did not cause the unintended acceleration .
CTS claims that it did not manufacture the pedals in older Toyota vehicles that exhibited the same acceleration problem .
If CTS is telling the truth , then the actual problem may be the electronic throttle control , the so-called drive-by-wire system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>According to a report [wsj.com] just issued by the "Wall Street Journal", the engineers at Toyota have developed an improved pedal that supposedly fixes the problem causing Toyota cars to accelerate out of control.
American regulators have approved the fix, and Toyota will send it to dealers by February 8.
This fix allows the dealers to resume selling the 8 models of vehicles affected by the recall.
However, a new angle to the problem recently surfaced, according to a report [nytimes.com] just issued by the "New York Times" on its blog.
CTS, which manufactures the throttle pedal for Toyota, claims that "the slow-return pedal phenomenon, which may occur in extreme environmental conditions, should absolutely not be linked with any sudden, unintended acceleration incidents".
In other words, though the pedal is defective, the defect did not cause the unintended acceleration.
CTS claims that it did not manufacture the pedals in older Toyota vehicles that exhibited the same acceleration problem.
If CTS is telling the truth, then the actual problem may be the electronic throttle control, the so-called drive-by-wire system.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973210</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30981468</id>
	<title>OB1</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265041080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Ooops, someone was off by one. On the plus side<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Ooops , someone was off by one .
On the plus side : - )</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Ooops, someone was off by one.
On the plus side :-)</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30990262</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>CharlieKotan</author>
	<datestamp>1265034120000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>My boss was recently killed in a Toy where the mats were reportedly found by the cops in the trunk.

If it turns out she was killed by Toyota playing games with lives, I'll cheerfully swear off their crap for life.  Currently I have two Toyotas, but there were plenty of good alternatives.</htmltext>
<tokenext>My boss was recently killed in a Toy where the mats were reportedly found by the cops in the trunk .
If it turns out she was killed by Toyota playing games with lives , I 'll cheerfully swear off their crap for life .
Currently I have two Toyotas , but there were plenty of good alternatives .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My boss was recently killed in a Toy where the mats were reportedly found by the cops in the trunk.
If it turns out she was killed by Toyota playing games with lives, I'll cheerfully swear off their crap for life.
Currently I have two Toyotas, but there were plenty of good alternatives.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973376</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30977418</id>
	<title>Re:If you have a problem with "drive by wire"</title>
	<author>ChrisMaple</author>
	<datestamp>1264959960000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Throttles controlled by cables have always been designed to close if the cable broke. In fact, it was at one time the law that two return springs were required in case one failed.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Throttles controlled by cables have always been designed to close if the cable broke .
In fact , it was at one time the law that two return springs were required in case one failed .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Throttles controlled by cables have always been designed to close if the cable broke.
In fact, it was at one time the law that two return springs were required in case one failed.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973918</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973290</id>
	<title>Doesn't matter if issue is electronic or mechanic</title>
	<author>jo7hs2</author>
	<datestamp>1264930320000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext>It doesn't matter to me if the issue is electronic or mechanical, I want a mechanical peddle pair and a mechanical key switch. I want to be able to kill the machine if I have to, and not rely on the electronics to behave appropriately when malfunctioning. How many press down to turn off power systems have you encountered that failed to turn off after a crash? I've certainly encountered my share of them.</htmltext>
<tokenext>It does n't matter to me if the issue is electronic or mechanical , I want a mechanical peddle pair and a mechanical key switch .
I want to be able to kill the machine if I have to , and not rely on the electronics to behave appropriately when malfunctioning .
How many press down to turn off power systems have you encountered that failed to turn off after a crash ?
I 've certainly encountered my share of them .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It doesn't matter to me if the issue is electronic or mechanical, I want a mechanical peddle pair and a mechanical key switch.
I want to be able to kill the machine if I have to, and not rely on the electronics to behave appropriately when malfunctioning.
How many press down to turn off power systems have you encountered that failed to turn off after a crash?
I've certainly encountered my share of them.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30977404</id>
	<title>Re:Ford 'cruise control terror driver' excellent l</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264959780000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Uh, that was a Ford Explorer, NOT a Territory! A USA designed car, not the Australian designed car.</p><p>From the article you linked to: "It took just over half an hour before the Explorer came to a stop near Frankston, just short of oncoming traffic." See? Explorer, not Territory...</p><p>Also, subsequent inspections found NOTHING wrong with the car, nothing in the ECU's memory to suggest a fault, and the car eventually stopped when the young driver stood on the brake (not break...) pedal.</p><p>"Fifty minutes after the emergency began, he pulled on the handbrake and stood on the brakes and the car eventually came to a stop just before hitting cars ahead of him."</p><p>I do wonder why he didn't do that 50 minutes earlier... Maybe he was out thrill seeking and wanted his 5 minutes of (rather dangerous) fame? Or maybe the car did have a problem and it mysteriously fixed itself during that 50 minutes... leaving no trace of any problem...</p><p>
&nbsp; I don't know, no-one else seems to know either. So, the supposition is operator error by an inexperienced driver.</p><p>Also, why didn't the cops drive in front of him, and slow down, letting the Explorer hit the back of the cop car, which then slows down (the cop cars brakes will stop both cars, it's just like a heavy trailer)?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Uh , that was a Ford Explorer , NOT a Territory !
A USA designed car , not the Australian designed car.From the article you linked to : " It took just over half an hour before the Explorer came to a stop near Frankston , just short of oncoming traffic .
" See ?
Explorer , not Territory...Also , subsequent inspections found NOTHING wrong with the car , nothing in the ECU 's memory to suggest a fault , and the car eventually stopped when the young driver stood on the brake ( not break... ) pedal .
" Fifty minutes after the emergency began , he pulled on the handbrake and stood on the brakes and the car eventually came to a stop just before hitting cars ahead of him .
" I do wonder why he did n't do that 50 minutes earlier... Maybe he was out thrill seeking and wanted his 5 minutes of ( rather dangerous ) fame ?
Or maybe the car did have a problem and it mysteriously fixed itself during that 50 minutes... leaving no trace of any problem.. .   I do n't know , no-one else seems to know either .
So , the supposition is operator error by an inexperienced driver.Also , why did n't the cops drive in front of him , and slow down , letting the Explorer hit the back of the cop car , which then slows down ( the cop cars brakes will stop both cars , it 's just like a heavy trailer ) ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Uh, that was a Ford Explorer, NOT a Territory!
A USA designed car, not the Australian designed car.From the article you linked to: "It took just over half an hour before the Explorer came to a stop near Frankston, just short of oncoming traffic.
" See?
Explorer, not Territory...Also, subsequent inspections found NOTHING wrong with the car, nothing in the ECU's memory to suggest a fault, and the car eventually stopped when the young driver stood on the brake (not break...) pedal.
"Fifty minutes after the emergency began, he pulled on the handbrake and stood on the brakes and the car eventually came to a stop just before hitting cars ahead of him.
"I do wonder why he didn't do that 50 minutes earlier... Maybe he was out thrill seeking and wanted his 5 minutes of (rather dangerous) fame?
Or maybe the car did have a problem and it mysteriously fixed itself during that 50 minutes... leaving no trace of any problem...
  I don't know, no-one else seems to know either.
So, the supposition is operator error by an inexperienced driver.Also, why didn't the cops drive in front of him, and slow down, letting the Explorer hit the back of the cop car, which then slows down (the cop cars brakes will stop both cars, it's just like a heavy trailer)?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974502</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973920</id>
	<title>VW did this for years</title>
	<author>Gothmolly</author>
	<datestamp>1264933620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>My 02 VW is drive by wire, and has never killed me.   How can Toyota of all companies, flub this so badly?</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>My 02 VW is drive by wire , and has never killed me .
How can Toyota of all companies , flub this so badly ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>My 02 VW is drive by wire, and has never killed me.
How can Toyota of all companies, flub this so badly?</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973244</id>
	<title>lets just point out the uselessness of this</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264930140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>1)  If we switched to mechanical acceleration control, braking etc...that would be fine, but we would still use machines to make the parts.<br>2) mechanical parts fail if not as often, more often than computer based systems<br>3) a computer/firmware based error is usually fixable with ease, or relative ease - sometimes the same for both<br>4) mechanical failures can cause an entire system to go down and need to be replaced - same goes for electronic.</p><p>one way or another, shit happens.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>1 ) If we switched to mechanical acceleration control , braking etc...that would be fine , but we would still use machines to make the parts.2 ) mechanical parts fail if not as often , more often than computer based systems3 ) a computer/firmware based error is usually fixable with ease , or relative ease - sometimes the same for both4 ) mechanical failures can cause an entire system to go down and need to be replaced - same goes for electronic.one way or another , shit happens .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>1)  If we switched to mechanical acceleration control, braking etc...that would be fine, but we would still use machines to make the parts.2) mechanical parts fail if not as often, more often than computer based systems3) a computer/firmware based error is usually fixable with ease, or relative ease - sometimes the same for both4) mechanical failures can cause an entire system to go down and need to be replaced - same goes for electronic.one way or another, shit happens.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973522</id>
	<title>Re:Moving too fast</title>
	<author>fahrbot-bot</author>
	<datestamp>1264931460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>It makes me want to buy an American car.</p></div>
</blockquote><p>
Buy an inexpensive one then.  Many high-priced US cars are drive-by-wire as well.  In addition to the things you mentioned (tire slippage and traction control), it also helps manage fuel economy and provide "auto brake" functionality.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>It makes me want to buy an American car .
Buy an inexpensive one then .
Many high-priced US cars are drive-by-wire as well .
In addition to the things you mentioned ( tire slippage and traction control ) , it also helps manage fuel economy and provide " auto brake " functionality .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It makes me want to buy an American car.
Buy an inexpensive one then.
Many high-priced US cars are drive-by-wire as well.
In addition to the things you mentioned (tire slippage and traction control), it also helps manage fuel economy and provide "auto brake" functionality.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973326</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30977576</id>
	<title>Re:Electronics bashing is fun, but...</title>
	<author>ChrisMaple</author>
	<datestamp>1264961340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>You have a valid point for a 14,000 pound vehicle, but for passenger cars up to about 4000 pounds power brake and steering aren't required provided that the design is optimized for manual control. I had a 1966 Corvette with manual steering and brakes. That was a 3200 pound car that wasn't optimized for ease of use, and it wasn't too difficult to operate under severe conditions. Old, crude tech.</htmltext>
<tokenext>You have a valid point for a 14,000 pound vehicle , but for passenger cars up to about 4000 pounds power brake and steering are n't required provided that the design is optimized for manual control .
I had a 1966 Corvette with manual steering and brakes .
That was a 3200 pound car that was n't optimized for ease of use , and it was n't too difficult to operate under severe conditions .
Old , crude tech .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>You have a valid point for a 14,000 pound vehicle, but for passenger cars up to about 4000 pounds power brake and steering aren't required provided that the design is optimized for manual control.
I had a 1966 Corvette with manual steering and brakes.
That was a 3200 pound car that wasn't optimized for ease of use, and it wasn't too difficult to operate under severe conditions.
Old, crude tech.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30976706</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975634</id>
	<title>Re:missing option Manual Transmission</title>
	<author>sarhjinian</author>
	<datestamp>1264944060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Lots of people screw up manual transmissions, too, generally by getting confused by which pedal does which.  Panic is as panic does, and having a third pedal does not, as a stick-shift snobs are ought to think, automatically make you a better driver.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Lots of people screw up manual transmissions , too , generally by getting confused by which pedal does which .
Panic is as panic does , and having a third pedal does not , as a stick-shift snobs are ought to think , automatically make you a better driver .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Lots of people screw up manual transmissions, too, generally by getting confused by which pedal does which.
Panic is as panic does, and having a third pedal does not, as a stick-shift snobs are ought to think, automatically make you a better driver.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973398</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975180</id>
	<title>Buying a car without mechanical brakes is</title>
	<author>BitZtream</author>
	<datestamp>1264941420000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>completely ignorant and the designers should be shot.</p><p>With power assisted traditional brakes you still have enough braking power to stand on the pedal and accomplish something.</p><p>If these cars do not have a direct mechanical linkage to the brakes from drivers foot to calipers or pads they should be destroyed.  Theres no reason to unlink the mechanical component on passenger cars, none.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>completely ignorant and the designers should be shot.With power assisted traditional brakes you still have enough braking power to stand on the pedal and accomplish something.If these cars do not have a direct mechanical linkage to the brakes from drivers foot to calipers or pads they should be destroyed .
Theres no reason to unlink the mechanical component on passenger cars , none .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>completely ignorant and the designers should be shot.With power assisted traditional brakes you still have enough braking power to stand on the pedal and accomplish something.If these cars do not have a direct mechanical linkage to the brakes from drivers foot to calipers or pads they should be destroyed.
Theres no reason to unlink the mechanical component on passenger cars, none.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975554</id>
	<title>Re:missing option Manual Transmission</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264943520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Option 1 depends on whether the electronics allow you to change the transmission position when the throttle is open...</p><p>Option 2 depends somewhat on whether there is enough vacuum to energize the power assist...again questionable if the throttle is wide open.</p><p>Option 3<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... as you say, not very powerful.</p><p>Option 4<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... may be non-obvious if you are not in park/neutral.</p><p>Based on the news articles, it is still totally unclear what really happened in the San Diego accident.  Perhaps someone should rent one of those cars, press the throttle all the way to the floor, and see if either the brakes or the shifter work in that situation.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Option 1 depends on whether the electronics allow you to change the transmission position when the throttle is open...Option 2 depends somewhat on whether there is enough vacuum to energize the power assist...again questionable if the throttle is wide open.Option 3 ... as you say , not very powerful.Option 4 ... may be non-obvious if you are not in park/neutral.Based on the news articles , it is still totally unclear what really happened in the San Diego accident .
Perhaps someone should rent one of those cars , press the throttle all the way to the floor , and see if either the brakes or the shifter work in that situation .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Option 1 depends on whether the electronics allow you to change the transmission position when the throttle is open...Option 2 depends somewhat on whether there is enough vacuum to energize the power assist...again questionable if the throttle is wide open.Option 3 ... as you say, not very powerful.Option 4 ... may be non-obvious if you are not in park/neutral.Based on the news articles, it is still totally unclear what really happened in the San Diego accident.
Perhaps someone should rent one of those cars, press the throttle all the way to the floor, and see if either the brakes or the shifter work in that situation.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974008</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30980508</id>
	<title>Can't they just look at a not-broken model?</title>
	<author>VTMarik</author>
	<datestamp>1265036940000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The recall goes back to 2007 models right? So take a 2007 model with the problem and compare it to a 2006 model without the problem, then compare the two chip by chip and bolt by bolt until you find out what is so different that it causes the problem.</p><p>Call me simplistic if you like, but surely just scaling back the construction type of this one part to a time before the problem existed is a simple enough change to implement to at least keep sales going and the stock price up.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The recall goes back to 2007 models right ?
So take a 2007 model with the problem and compare it to a 2006 model without the problem , then compare the two chip by chip and bolt by bolt until you find out what is so different that it causes the problem.Call me simplistic if you like , but surely just scaling back the construction type of this one part to a time before the problem existed is a simple enough change to implement to at least keep sales going and the stock price up .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The recall goes back to 2007 models right?
So take a 2007 model with the problem and compare it to a 2006 model without the problem, then compare the two chip by chip and bolt by bolt until you find out what is so different that it causes the problem.Call me simplistic if you like, but surely just scaling back the construction type of this one part to a time before the problem existed is a simple enough change to implement to at least keep sales going and the stock price up.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975306</id>
	<title>BMW uses electronic throttles</title>
	<author>Crashspeeder</author>
	<datestamp>1264942140000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>The E46 3 series used a drive-by-wire system, no throttle cable.  BMW never blamed floor mats or pedals, hell as far as I know nothing went wrong.  The worst part is that they're limiting the recall to Toyota only.  I have a friend who told me months ago that her throttle stuck on the highway in her '06 Lexus IS250.  Toyota claims it's only the American pedal assembly but Lexus doesn't use the American pedal, it uses a Japanese-made assembly from a different manufacturer and yet it still sticks.
<br> <br>
It seems to me that Toyota didn't do enough testing and refuses to accept responsibility to the full extent of their screwup.</htmltext>
<tokenext>The E46 3 series used a drive-by-wire system , no throttle cable .
BMW never blamed floor mats or pedals , hell as far as I know nothing went wrong .
The worst part is that they 're limiting the recall to Toyota only .
I have a friend who told me months ago that her throttle stuck on the highway in her '06 Lexus IS250 .
Toyota claims it 's only the American pedal assembly but Lexus does n't use the American pedal , it uses a Japanese-made assembly from a different manufacturer and yet it still sticks .
It seems to me that Toyota did n't do enough testing and refuses to accept responsibility to the full extent of their screwup .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The E46 3 series used a drive-by-wire system, no throttle cable.
BMW never blamed floor mats or pedals, hell as far as I know nothing went wrong.
The worst part is that they're limiting the recall to Toyota only.
I have a friend who told me months ago that her throttle stuck on the highway in her '06 Lexus IS250.
Toyota claims it's only the American pedal assembly but Lexus doesn't use the American pedal, it uses a Japanese-made assembly from a different manufacturer and yet it still sticks.
It seems to me that Toyota didn't do enough testing and refuses to accept responsibility to the full extent of their screwup.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30976832</id>
	<title>Random rant</title>
	<author>electrosoccertux</author>
	<datestamp>1264954080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>This new car is not the perfect vehicle for us, it was just the best in the class for the price. There are some deficiencies in the car, such as the trip computer not showing you fuel efficiency ratings, the quality of the construction in the plastic covering under the engine, cheap plywood backing covering the spare tire in the trunk, and louder than normal wind noise coming from the front roof support posts and root during 80 mpg highway driving speeds, a cup holder divider that comes out anytime you take a cup out of it, and probably a bunch of other issues that we'll find out after more than 4-weeks of owning it.</p></div><p>Sounds really negative.<br>But seriously, these things are not issues when I'm interested in a car that drives to 300k, not one that struggles to reach 175k.<br>I have unilaterally found the Camrys to be more comfortable to ride in when compared with a similar-budget American car or truck. I get into friends' cars and think "wow, how do you put up with this?"</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>This new car is not the perfect vehicle for us , it was just the best in the class for the price .
There are some deficiencies in the car , such as the trip computer not showing you fuel efficiency ratings , the quality of the construction in the plastic covering under the engine , cheap plywood backing covering the spare tire in the trunk , and louder than normal wind noise coming from the front roof support posts and root during 80 mpg highway driving speeds , a cup holder divider that comes out anytime you take a cup out of it , and probably a bunch of other issues that we 'll find out after more than 4-weeks of owning it.Sounds really negative.But seriously , these things are not issues when I 'm interested in a car that drives to 300k , not one that struggles to reach 175k.I have unilaterally found the Camrys to be more comfortable to ride in when compared with a similar-budget American car or truck .
I get into friends ' cars and think " wow , how do you put up with this ?
"</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This new car is not the perfect vehicle for us, it was just the best in the class for the price.
There are some deficiencies in the car, such as the trip computer not showing you fuel efficiency ratings, the quality of the construction in the plastic covering under the engine, cheap plywood backing covering the spare tire in the trunk, and louder than normal wind noise coming from the front roof support posts and root during 80 mpg highway driving speeds, a cup holder divider that comes out anytime you take a cup out of it, and probably a bunch of other issues that we'll find out after more than 4-weeks of owning it.Sounds really negative.But seriously, these things are not issues when I'm interested in a car that drives to 300k, not one that struggles to reach 175k.I have unilaterally found the Camrys to be more comfortable to ride in when compared with a similar-budget American car or truck.
I get into friends' cars and think "wow, how do you put up with this?
"
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974110</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973426</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>maxwells daemon</author>
	<datestamp>1264931100000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Funny</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It was not an electrical gremlin by the way, it was the amc gremlin.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It was not an electrical gremlin by the way , it was the amc gremlin .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It was not an electrical gremlin by the way, it was the amc gremlin.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973228</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30976688</id>
	<title>Re:Camry Hybrid &amp; drive by wire</title>
	<author>oddaddresstrap</author>
	<datestamp>1264952220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Some comments on your observations (I've got an '07 Prius):<br>- I agree that the gear lever is for tactile feedback. Pushbuttons or on-screen buttons would be hard to find in the dark or without looking.<br>- The driver floormat hasn't come off the hooks, but is getting worn (almost 100K miles). I've seen some news stories that suggest that the all-weather "winter" ones are more problematic.<br>- I use the cruise control many times a day and bump it up and down a lot (to the point where it's automatic and I don't even realize I'm doing it). It works very nicely by speeding up or slowing down by 1 mph per toggle. It has never, ever misbehaved.</p><p>A note about unintended acceleration: I found that even under full throttle, if you hit the "Park" button, it throws the transmission into neutral and the engine goes to idle. Also tested it with the cruise control by bumping it up a few miles an hour and then hitting Park. Same thing. (Luckily, it doesn't try to lock the transmission like shifting a normal car into Park would do).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Some comments on your observations ( I 've got an '07 Prius ) : - I agree that the gear lever is for tactile feedback .
Pushbuttons or on-screen buttons would be hard to find in the dark or without looking.- The driver floormat has n't come off the hooks , but is getting worn ( almost 100K miles ) .
I 've seen some news stories that suggest that the all-weather " winter " ones are more problematic.- I use the cruise control many times a day and bump it up and down a lot ( to the point where it 's automatic and I do n't even realize I 'm doing it ) .
It works very nicely by speeding up or slowing down by 1 mph per toggle .
It has never , ever misbehaved.A note about unintended acceleration : I found that even under full throttle , if you hit the " Park " button , it throws the transmission into neutral and the engine goes to idle .
Also tested it with the cruise control by bumping it up a few miles an hour and then hitting Park .
Same thing .
( Luckily , it does n't try to lock the transmission like shifting a normal car into Park would do ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Some comments on your observations (I've got an '07 Prius):- I agree that the gear lever is for tactile feedback.
Pushbuttons or on-screen buttons would be hard to find in the dark or without looking.- The driver floormat hasn't come off the hooks, but is getting worn (almost 100K miles).
I've seen some news stories that suggest that the all-weather "winter" ones are more problematic.- I use the cruise control many times a day and bump it up and down a lot (to the point where it's automatic and I don't even realize I'm doing it).
It works very nicely by speeding up or slowing down by 1 mph per toggle.
It has never, ever misbehaved.A note about unintended acceleration: I found that even under full throttle, if you hit the "Park" button, it throws the transmission into neutral and the engine goes to idle.
Also tested it with the cruise control by bumping it up a few miles an hour and then hitting Park.
Same thing.
(Luckily, it doesn't try to lock the transmission like shifting a normal car into Park would do).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973422</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30978350</id>
	<title>Car analogies!</title>
	<author>colourmyeyes</author>
	<datestamp>1265014980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>This is a dream Slashdot thread - your car analogies won't have to be analogies at all! They can be completely literal!</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is a dream Slashdot thread - your car analogies wo n't have to be analogies at all !
They can be completely literal !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is a dream Slashdot thread - your car analogies won't have to be analogies at all!
They can be completely literal!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973542</id>
	<title>Reminds Me of the Air France Crash</title>
	<author>mwandaw</author>
	<datestamp>1264931580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I agree with others who have said that electronic controls have good potential. However, as the old saying goes, nothing good comes easy.

This Toyota scandal (sadly) reminds me of the much more horrible Air France crash of a fly-by-wire Air Bus jet into the Atlantic Ocean enroute from Brazil to France.

Be careful out there!</htmltext>
<tokenext>I agree with others who have said that electronic controls have good potential .
However , as the old saying goes , nothing good comes easy .
This Toyota scandal ( sadly ) reminds me of the much more horrible Air France crash of a fly-by-wire Air Bus jet into the Atlantic Ocean enroute from Brazil to France .
Be careful out there !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I agree with others who have said that electronic controls have good potential.
However, as the old saying goes, nothing good comes easy.
This Toyota scandal (sadly) reminds me of the much more horrible Air France crash of a fly-by-wire Air Bus jet into the Atlantic Ocean enroute from Brazil to France.
Be careful out there!</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975214</id>
	<title>Re:missing option Manual Transmission</title>
	<author>BitZtream</author>
	<datestamp>1264941600000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Your license is revoked.</p><p>You do not use the emergancy brakes to stop.</p><p>They apply braking pressure to the rear wheel only, and they will lock up well before any useful amount of stopping force is achieved.</p><p>Now you have a car that is out of control because the rear end has no traction, AND it isn't stopping.</p><p>Please turn in your license and never drive a car again.</p><p>If a car requires itself to be put in neutral then it needs to be removed from the road, there should be NOTHING that stops you from turning it off in an instant.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Your license is revoked.You do not use the emergancy brakes to stop.They apply braking pressure to the rear wheel only , and they will lock up well before any useful amount of stopping force is achieved.Now you have a car that is out of control because the rear end has no traction , AND it is n't stopping.Please turn in your license and never drive a car again.If a car requires itself to be put in neutral then it needs to be removed from the road , there should be NOTHING that stops you from turning it off in an instant .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Your license is revoked.You do not use the emergancy brakes to stop.They apply braking pressure to the rear wheel only, and they will lock up well before any useful amount of stopping force is achieved.Now you have a car that is out of control because the rear end has no traction, AND it isn't stopping.Please turn in your license and never drive a car again.If a car requires itself to be put in neutral then it needs to be removed from the road, there should be NOTHING that stops you from turning it off in an instant.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974008</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30991056</id>
	<title>Re:missing option Manual Transmission</title>
	<author>El\_Oscuro</author>
	<datestamp>1265040060000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><i>And a nearly exact same function is available in an automatic- it is called PUT THE TRANSMISSION IN NEUTRAL!!</i>
<p>While technically true, it really isn't. With a manual, you disengage the transmission every time you shift gears or come to a stop.  Using the clutch is literally as instinctive as using the brake.  In an automatic, you put it in drive and leave it there.  Putting the transmission in Neutral is not part of standard driving.  In an emergency situation, it will probably require taking your eyes of the road to perform a function that you rarely, if ever, do.  Where as, the guy with the stick pushed the clutch in with the brakes without thinking about it as soon as the engine started to runaway.  He may have a blown motor but wasn't in an accident.  As far as the other options go, turning the ignition off isn't good either, as it can lock the steering and/or remove the power steering/brake assist.  Once again, turning off the ignition is not instinctive during an emergency situation.  As far as brakes go, Consumer Reports ran some tests and they concluded that brakes could stop the car if it was not going very fast, but really wouldn't if it was was going faster.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>And a nearly exact same function is available in an automatic- it is called PUT THE TRANSMISSION IN NEUTRAL ! !
While technically true , it really is n't .
With a manual , you disengage the transmission every time you shift gears or come to a stop .
Using the clutch is literally as instinctive as using the brake .
In an automatic , you put it in drive and leave it there .
Putting the transmission in Neutral is not part of standard driving .
In an emergency situation , it will probably require taking your eyes of the road to perform a function that you rarely , if ever , do .
Where as , the guy with the stick pushed the clutch in with the brakes without thinking about it as soon as the engine started to runaway .
He may have a blown motor but was n't in an accident .
As far as the other options go , turning the ignition off is n't good either , as it can lock the steering and/or remove the power steering/brake assist .
Once again , turning off the ignition is not instinctive during an emergency situation .
As far as brakes go , Consumer Reports ran some tests and they concluded that brakes could stop the car if it was not going very fast , but really would n't if it was was going faster .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>And a nearly exact same function is available in an automatic- it is called PUT THE TRANSMISSION IN NEUTRAL!!
While technically true, it really isn't.
With a manual, you disengage the transmission every time you shift gears or come to a stop.
Using the clutch is literally as instinctive as using the brake.
In an automatic, you put it in drive and leave it there.
Putting the transmission in Neutral is not part of standard driving.
In an emergency situation, it will probably require taking your eyes of the road to perform a function that you rarely, if ever, do.
Where as, the guy with the stick pushed the clutch in with the brakes without thinking about it as soon as the engine started to runaway.
He may have a blown motor but wasn't in an accident.
As far as the other options go, turning the ignition off isn't good either, as it can lock the steering and/or remove the power steering/brake assist.
Once again, turning off the ignition is not instinctive during an emergency situation.
As far as brakes go, Consumer Reports ran some tests and they concluded that brakes could stop the car if it was not going very fast, but really wouldn't if it was was going faster.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974008</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973420</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>vanyel</author>
	<datestamp>1264931040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Call me skeptical, but this has sounded like a software problem to me from the very beginning.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Call me skeptical , but this has sounded like a software problem to me from the very beginning .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Call me skeptical, but this has sounded like a software problem to me from the very beginning.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973228</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30979548</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>metaforest</author>
	<datestamp>1265030520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This can be included in the decision tree by noting that that forward motion is ZERO!   By the time the car is moving 5 mph there wont be a Accel  Brake conflict.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This can be included in the decision tree by noting that that forward motion is ZERO !
By the time the car is moving 5 mph there wont be a Accel Brake conflict .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This can be included in the decision tree by noting that that forward motion is ZERO!
By the time the car is moving 5 mph there wont be a Accel  Brake conflict.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973582</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30978202</id>
	<title>Shift Release</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265056200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>In automatics you can shift it into neutral regardless of the shift release button.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>In automatics you can shift it into neutral regardless of the shift release button .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>In automatics you can shift it into neutral regardless of the shift release button.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974502</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30976976</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>clockt</author>
	<datestamp>1264955700000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>
That's not a new problem either: back in the day when I worked in a Jaguar garage I tuned and serviced an aging but much loved Series II XJ6. On the test drive, when full throttle is used from a rolling start, the throttle jammed open on over run at about 100 km/h. Quite exciting. The pedal lifted from the floor a bit but felt dead...
</p><p>
I braked heavily, the transmission kicked down a gear or two and we kept going - which was not in the plan, so I turned the ignition off instead.
</p><p>
Subsequent roadside inspection revealed that the throttle shaft between the two carburettors had worn through the plastic bushings and made a significant groove in the mounting plate. The throttle shaft itself has two flattened sections that engage in spring plates and stuff, and one was close enough to drop into the worn groove - but only at full throttle. It needed a good firm tug in the right direction to disengage it.
</p><p>
The owners had little chance to encounter this, being old and cautious and spending most of their time in suburban and inner city traffic: not a place where you need to use full throttle. A holiday trip to the country was on the cards though, and it could have become an issue on Australia's long but narrow (single lane each way) highways where overtaking sojourns onto the wrong side of the road are required - and not a place where you hang about so full throttle at 100/kmh + is the norm...
</p><p>
I'm glad we found it, and it became part of our service routine for that model thereafter. We never found another like it, but found a few that were on the way.
</p><p>
Judging from the comment above I guess there's still some evolution to come on the whole throttle control and maintenance issue.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's not a new problem either : back in the day when I worked in a Jaguar garage I tuned and serviced an aging but much loved Series II XJ6 .
On the test drive , when full throttle is used from a rolling start , the throttle jammed open on over run at about 100 km/h .
Quite exciting .
The pedal lifted from the floor a bit but felt dead.. . I braked heavily , the transmission kicked down a gear or two and we kept going - which was not in the plan , so I turned the ignition off instead .
Subsequent roadside inspection revealed that the throttle shaft between the two carburettors had worn through the plastic bushings and made a significant groove in the mounting plate .
The throttle shaft itself has two flattened sections that engage in spring plates and stuff , and one was close enough to drop into the worn groove - but only at full throttle .
It needed a good firm tug in the right direction to disengage it .
The owners had little chance to encounter this , being old and cautious and spending most of their time in suburban and inner city traffic : not a place where you need to use full throttle .
A holiday trip to the country was on the cards though , and it could have become an issue on Australia 's long but narrow ( single lane each way ) highways where overtaking sojourns onto the wrong side of the road are required - and not a place where you hang about so full throttle at 100/kmh + is the norm.. . I 'm glad we found it , and it became part of our service routine for that model thereafter .
We never found another like it , but found a few that were on the way .
Judging from the comment above I guess there 's still some evolution to come on the whole throttle control and maintenance issue .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>
That's not a new problem either: back in the day when I worked in a Jaguar garage I tuned and serviced an aging but much loved Series II XJ6.
On the test drive, when full throttle is used from a rolling start, the throttle jammed open on over run at about 100 km/h.
Quite exciting.
The pedal lifted from the floor a bit but felt dead...

I braked heavily, the transmission kicked down a gear or two and we kept going - which was not in the plan, so I turned the ignition off instead.
Subsequent roadside inspection revealed that the throttle shaft between the two carburettors had worn through the plastic bushings and made a significant groove in the mounting plate.
The throttle shaft itself has two flattened sections that engage in spring plates and stuff, and one was close enough to drop into the worn groove - but only at full throttle.
It needed a good firm tug in the right direction to disengage it.
The owners had little chance to encounter this, being old and cautious and spending most of their time in suburban and inner city traffic: not a place where you need to use full throttle.
A holiday trip to the country was on the cards though, and it could have become an issue on Australia's long but narrow (single lane each way) highways where overtaking sojourns onto the wrong side of the road are required - and not a place where you hang about so full throttle at 100/kmh + is the norm...

I'm glad we found it, and it became part of our service routine for that model thereafter.
We never found another like it, but found a few that were on the way.
Judging from the comment above I guess there's still some evolution to come on the whole throttle control and maintenance issue.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973228</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973378</id>
	<title>Re:Stupid summary, stupid story</title>
	<author>CAIMLAS</author>
	<datestamp>1264930800000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Most throttles are a simple cable system (or, at least, they used to be). Such a system doesn't break often and, when it does break, seems to be a gradual thing. I don't personally see much of a need to change things from such a simple mechanism: it works, and rarely breaks. Added complexity introduces many additional failure points. The failure being solely mechanical still likely points to either a drastic re-engineering to account for the electronics, or an electronics-induced mechanical failure. Cable throttles are not exactly "new" science.</p><p>A throttle really needs to be designed with safety in mind: IE, under-working not over-working. In other words, the car doesn't "go", never mind not accelerating.</p><p>The summary is referring to breaking systems when mentioning hoses and hydraulics. It's already a complex system, but should not be in any way associated with the throttle: breaks should still work when the throttle is broken.</p><p>Really, there's little excuse except poor engineering on the part of the Toyota failures. I don't think it speaks one way or the other, for or against, EVs/electronics in vehicles. There are other, bigger issues surrounding EVs/electronics which aren't even really related. The fact that the Toyotas were 'advanced' vehicles is simply coincidence.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Most throttles are a simple cable system ( or , at least , they used to be ) .
Such a system does n't break often and , when it does break , seems to be a gradual thing .
I do n't personally see much of a need to change things from such a simple mechanism : it works , and rarely breaks .
Added complexity introduces many additional failure points .
The failure being solely mechanical still likely points to either a drastic re-engineering to account for the electronics , or an electronics-induced mechanical failure .
Cable throttles are not exactly " new " science.A throttle really needs to be designed with safety in mind : IE , under-working not over-working .
In other words , the car does n't " go " , never mind not accelerating.The summary is referring to breaking systems when mentioning hoses and hydraulics .
It 's already a complex system , but should not be in any way associated with the throttle : breaks should still work when the throttle is broken.Really , there 's little excuse except poor engineering on the part of the Toyota failures .
I do n't think it speaks one way or the other , for or against , EVs/electronics in vehicles .
There are other , bigger issues surrounding EVs/electronics which are n't even really related .
The fact that the Toyotas were 'advanced ' vehicles is simply coincidence .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Most throttles are a simple cable system (or, at least, they used to be).
Such a system doesn't break often and, when it does break, seems to be a gradual thing.
I don't personally see much of a need to change things from such a simple mechanism: it works, and rarely breaks.
Added complexity introduces many additional failure points.
The failure being solely mechanical still likely points to either a drastic re-engineering to account for the electronics, or an electronics-induced mechanical failure.
Cable throttles are not exactly "new" science.A throttle really needs to be designed with safety in mind: IE, under-working not over-working.
In other words, the car doesn't "go", never mind not accelerating.The summary is referring to breaking systems when mentioning hoses and hydraulics.
It's already a complex system, but should not be in any way associated with the throttle: breaks should still work when the throttle is broken.Really, there's little excuse except poor engineering on the part of the Toyota failures.
I don't think it speaks one way or the other, for or against, EVs/electronics in vehicles.
There are other, bigger issues surrounding EVs/electronics which aren't even really related.
The fact that the Toyotas were 'advanced' vehicles is simply coincidence.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973224</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973812</id>
	<title>Why Software Is Bad and How to Fix it</title>
	<author>rebelscience</author>
	<datestamp>1264933080000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Software is bad because, unlike hardware, deterministic timing is not an inherent part of it. Computer programs are based on the Turing Computing Model. The TCM has nothing to say about timing other than the inherent sequentiality of operations. Read <a href="http://www.rebelscience.org/Cosas/Reliability.htm" title="rebelscience.org" rel="nofollow">Why Software Is Bad and What We Can Do to Fix it</a> [rebelscience.org] and <a href="http://rebelscience.blogspot.com/2008/07/how-to-solve-parallel-programming.html" title="blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">How to Solve the Parallel Programming Crisis</a> [blogspot.com] if you're interested in solving this crisis once and for all.</p><p>Our basic algorithmic computing model has not changed since Charles Babbage. It's time for the industry and academia to wake up. What is needed is a non-algorithmic, synchronous and reactive model. I hope the auto industry (and everybody else who writes software and build computers) takes this to heart because these problems are going to happen again and again. And the cost is going to skyrocket.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Software is bad because , unlike hardware , deterministic timing is not an inherent part of it .
Computer programs are based on the Turing Computing Model .
The TCM has nothing to say about timing other than the inherent sequentiality of operations .
Read Why Software Is Bad and What We Can Do to Fix it [ rebelscience.org ] and How to Solve the Parallel Programming Crisis [ blogspot.com ] if you 're interested in solving this crisis once and for all.Our basic algorithmic computing model has not changed since Charles Babbage .
It 's time for the industry and academia to wake up .
What is needed is a non-algorithmic , synchronous and reactive model .
I hope the auto industry ( and everybody else who writes software and build computers ) takes this to heart because these problems are going to happen again and again .
And the cost is going to skyrocket .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Software is bad because, unlike hardware, deterministic timing is not an inherent part of it.
Computer programs are based on the Turing Computing Model.
The TCM has nothing to say about timing other than the inherent sequentiality of operations.
Read Why Software Is Bad and What We Can Do to Fix it [rebelscience.org] and How to Solve the Parallel Programming Crisis [blogspot.com] if you're interested in solving this crisis once and for all.Our basic algorithmic computing model has not changed since Charles Babbage.
It's time for the industry and academia to wake up.
What is needed is a non-algorithmic, synchronous and reactive model.
I hope the auto industry (and everybody else who writes software and build computers) takes this to heart because these problems are going to happen again and again.
And the cost is going to skyrocket.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973210</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974502</id>
	<title>Ford 'cruise control terror driver' excellent link</title>
	<author>pipedwho</author>
	<datestamp>1264936680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This article (happened in Australia - linked related articles contain more information): <a href="http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/12/16/2773868.htm" title="abc.net.au" rel="nofollow">http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/12/16/2773868.htm</a> [abc.net.au]</p><p>describes a problem with a Ford Territory getting stuck with the cruise control actively trying to keep the vehicle at 100km/hr.</p><p>A couple of things to answer the 'this guy was idiot, I'm so clever it wouldn't have happened to me' crowd:</p><p>1. He couldn't turn off the ignition as the car won't let you do that if the car is moving.</p><p>2. He couldn't shift to neutral because the car wouldn't let him push the shift release button. (It was an automatic, so no clutch pedal.)</p><p>3. Pushing the brake wasn't helping enough to stop the car. (In the end it worked, but he had to jump on it with both feet all his adrenaline fuelled strength while pulling as hard as he could on the handbrake.)</p><p>4. The accelerator pedal only worked to speed him up, It wasn't a pedal 'sticking to the mat' issue, as the car was holding itself exactly to the speed of the cruise control.</p><p>5. The car was going too fast to just ram into a barrier or tree, etc.</p><p>6. The guy called Ford Australia (on his mobile phone), who couldn't help him and put him on hold. So then he called the police who, to their credit, cleared the road ahead and kept him calm enough to eventually get the car to stop. The total ordeal lasted 50 minutes.</p><p>7. The recording of the police call was released and played on the news and it was pretty obvious that both the guy and the police were doing everything to get the car to stop. This was not a situation where a quick two second phone call to a know-it-all Slashdotter would have solved the problem.</p><p>Anyway, I can't believe this news didn't make Slashdot when it happened a couple of months ago, as it contains considerably more information than the usual fare on this topic.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>This article ( happened in Australia - linked related articles contain more information ) : http : //www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/12/16/2773868.htm [ abc.net.au ] describes a problem with a Ford Territory getting stuck with the cruise control actively trying to keep the vehicle at 100km/hr.A couple of things to answer the 'this guy was idiot , I 'm so clever it would n't have happened to me ' crowd : 1 .
He could n't turn off the ignition as the car wo n't let you do that if the car is moving.2 .
He could n't shift to neutral because the car would n't let him push the shift release button .
( It was an automatic , so no clutch pedal. ) 3 .
Pushing the brake was n't helping enough to stop the car .
( In the end it worked , but he had to jump on it with both feet all his adrenaline fuelled strength while pulling as hard as he could on the handbrake. ) 4 .
The accelerator pedal only worked to speed him up , It was n't a pedal 'sticking to the mat ' issue , as the car was holding itself exactly to the speed of the cruise control.5 .
The car was going too fast to just ram into a barrier or tree , etc.6 .
The guy called Ford Australia ( on his mobile phone ) , who could n't help him and put him on hold .
So then he called the police who , to their credit , cleared the road ahead and kept him calm enough to eventually get the car to stop .
The total ordeal lasted 50 minutes.7 .
The recording of the police call was released and played on the news and it was pretty obvious that both the guy and the police were doing everything to get the car to stop .
This was not a situation where a quick two second phone call to a know-it-all Slashdotter would have solved the problem.Anyway , I ca n't believe this news did n't make Slashdot when it happened a couple of months ago , as it contains considerably more information than the usual fare on this topic .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This article (happened in Australia - linked related articles contain more information): http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/12/16/2773868.htm [abc.net.au]describes a problem with a Ford Territory getting stuck with the cruise control actively trying to keep the vehicle at 100km/hr.A couple of things to answer the 'this guy was idiot, I'm so clever it wouldn't have happened to me' crowd:1.
He couldn't turn off the ignition as the car won't let you do that if the car is moving.2.
He couldn't shift to neutral because the car wouldn't let him push the shift release button.
(It was an automatic, so no clutch pedal.)3.
Pushing the brake wasn't helping enough to stop the car.
(In the end it worked, but he had to jump on it with both feet all his adrenaline fuelled strength while pulling as hard as he could on the handbrake.)4.
The accelerator pedal only worked to speed him up, It wasn't a pedal 'sticking to the mat' issue, as the car was holding itself exactly to the speed of the cruise control.5.
The car was going too fast to just ram into a barrier or tree, etc.6.
The guy called Ford Australia (on his mobile phone), who couldn't help him and put him on hold.
So then he called the police who, to their credit, cleared the road ahead and kept him calm enough to eventually get the car to stop.
The total ordeal lasted 50 minutes.7.
The recording of the police call was released and played on the news and it was pretty obvious that both the guy and the police were doing everything to get the car to stop.
This was not a situation where a quick two second phone call to a know-it-all Slashdotter would have solved the problem.Anyway, I can't believe this news didn't make Slashdot when it happened a couple of months ago, as it contains considerably more information than the usual fare on this topic.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30990862</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>mollusc</author>
	<datestamp>1265038440000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>That's not what I was taught. If it's steep enough that you can't switch from brake to throttle without rolling, you use the handbrake to hold the car. <p>1. Press brake pedal. </p><p>2. Press clutch. </p><p>3. Start engine. </p><p>4. Hold handbrake up with release button depressed. </p><p>5. Switch brake foot to throttle. </p><p>6. Release clutch, depress throttle and lower handbrake as the engine engages.
</p><p> What's wrong with that? Surely as a general rule, the foot brake is for slowing or stopping the car in motion, and the handbrake is for holding the car while stationary.</p><p> Bear in mind, I've done that about three times in the last ten years. It's got to be really, really, really steep, and something has to be really, really close behind. It's invaluable for novice drivers, though, or when it's too slippery to put on a lot of throttle in a hurry.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's not what I was taught .
If it 's steep enough that you ca n't switch from brake to throttle without rolling , you use the handbrake to hold the car .
1. Press brake pedal .
2. Press clutch .
3. Start engine .
4. Hold handbrake up with release button depressed .
5. Switch brake foot to throttle .
6. Release clutch , depress throttle and lower handbrake as the engine engages .
What 's wrong with that ?
Surely as a general rule , the foot brake is for slowing or stopping the car in motion , and the handbrake is for holding the car while stationary .
Bear in mind , I 've done that about three times in the last ten years .
It 's got to be really , really , really steep , and something has to be really , really close behind .
It 's invaluable for novice drivers , though , or when it 's too slippery to put on a lot of throttle in a hurry .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's not what I was taught.
If it's steep enough that you can't switch from brake to throttle without rolling, you use the handbrake to hold the car.
1. Press brake pedal.
2. Press clutch.
3. Start engine.
4. Hold handbrake up with release button depressed.
5. Switch brake foot to throttle.
6. Release clutch, depress throttle and lower handbrake as the engine engages.
What's wrong with that?
Surely as a general rule, the foot brake is for slowing or stopping the car in motion, and the handbrake is for holding the car while stationary.
Bear in mind, I've done that about three times in the last ten years.
It's got to be really, really, really steep, and something has to be really, really close behind.
It's invaluable for novice drivers, though, or when it's too slippery to put on a lot of throttle in a hurry.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973582</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30976386</id>
	<title>Re:Shift into neutral, are you kidding?</title>
	<author>illumin8</author>
	<datestamp>1264949220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><blockquote><div><p>What is with all these crazy people suggesting that you should shift into neutral? With a floored accelerator, that's a great way to completely destroy the engine. How about you do what you always do when you want to slow down? Push the fucking brake!</p></div></blockquote><p>I'd rather shift into neutral and blow the engine than blow myself all over another vehicle or a guard rail at 100 mph...  Brakes don't work as well when you're at wide open throttle.  Don't be an idiot.  A blown engine is easy to replace; in fact, I bet Toyota would give you a free one if you experienced this problem.  They'd rather pay for an engine than pay death benefits to your family.</p><p>Bottom line, don't try to be a hero.  Let the engine blow if it's gonna, put it in neutral, brake to a stop, and turn off the ignition.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>What is with all these crazy people suggesting that you should shift into neutral ?
With a floored accelerator , that 's a great way to completely destroy the engine .
How about you do what you always do when you want to slow down ?
Push the fucking brake ! I 'd rather shift into neutral and blow the engine than blow myself all over another vehicle or a guard rail at 100 mph... Brakes do n't work as well when you 're at wide open throttle .
Do n't be an idiot .
A blown engine is easy to replace ; in fact , I bet Toyota would give you a free one if you experienced this problem .
They 'd rather pay for an engine than pay death benefits to your family.Bottom line , do n't try to be a hero .
Let the engine blow if it 's gon na , put it in neutral , brake to a stop , and turn off the ignition .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>What is with all these crazy people suggesting that you should shift into neutral?
With a floored accelerator, that's a great way to completely destroy the engine.
How about you do what you always do when you want to slow down?
Push the fucking brake!I'd rather shift into neutral and blow the engine than blow myself all over another vehicle or a guard rail at 100 mph...  Brakes don't work as well when you're at wide open throttle.
Don't be an idiot.
A blown engine is easy to replace; in fact, I bet Toyota would give you a free one if you experienced this problem.
They'd rather pay for an engine than pay death benefits to your family.Bottom line, don't try to be a hero.
Let the engine blow if it's gonna, put it in neutral, brake to a stop, and turn off the ignition.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974534</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974262</id>
	<title>Drop 10\% of your diesel MPG</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264935240000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Drop 10\% of your diesel MPG: Diesel is denser and has a greater ydrocarbon content per gallon. Your 55-60 is a slightly less impressive 50-55mpg for a petrol. Add to that the parent post probably has a 2-ton car and yours is going to be a smaller saloon, maybe even a supermini.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Drop 10 \ % of your diesel MPG : Diesel is denser and has a greater ydrocarbon content per gallon .
Your 55-60 is a slightly less impressive 50-55mpg for a petrol .
Add to that the parent post probably has a 2-ton car and yours is going to be a smaller saloon , maybe even a supermini .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Drop 10\% of your diesel MPG: Diesel is denser and has a greater ydrocarbon content per gallon.
Your 55-60 is a slightly less impressive 50-55mpg for a petrol.
Add to that the parent post probably has a 2-ton car and yours is going to be a smaller saloon, maybe even a supermini.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973706</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973194</id>
	<title>Safety Critical</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264929720000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>At least in one case, the brakes failed, the accelerator stuck, and the person didn't know how to turn the car off because it was a rental and used a push-button ignition.  Also, they couldn't put it into neutral because it had a push-button shifter as well.  People really should learn about the car before they drive it, but this is a monumental fuck-up on the part of Toyota.  I think that we can do the push-button stuff CORRECTLY, but this isn't the way to do it.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>At least in one case , the brakes failed , the accelerator stuck , and the person did n't know how to turn the car off because it was a rental and used a push-button ignition .
Also , they could n't put it into neutral because it had a push-button shifter as well .
People really should learn about the car before they drive it , but this is a monumental fuck-up on the part of Toyota .
I think that we can do the push-button stuff CORRECTLY , but this is n't the way to do it .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>At least in one case, the brakes failed, the accelerator stuck, and the person didn't know how to turn the car off because it was a rental and used a push-button ignition.
Also, they couldn't put it into neutral because it had a push-button shifter as well.
People really should learn about the car before they drive it, but this is a monumental fuck-up on the part of Toyota.
I think that we can do the push-button stuff CORRECTLY, but this isn't the way to do it.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974536</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264937040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>So you can't heel and toe in Audi's anymore? Yet another reason to not buy one.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>So you ca n't heel and toe in Audi 's anymore ?
Yet another reason to not buy one .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>So you can't heel and toe in Audi's anymore?
Yet another reason to not buy one.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973228</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975512</id>
	<title>Re:Shift into neutral, are you kidding?</title>
	<author>stormy\_petral</author>
	<datestamp>1264943340000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Faced with the choice of destroying the engine or crashing into a highway barrier at full throttle, I'll gladly take crashing into the barrier in order to save the engine.<p>Oh, wait...</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Faced with the choice of destroying the engine or crashing into a highway barrier at full throttle , I 'll gladly take crashing into the barrier in order to save the engine.Oh , wait.. .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Faced with the choice of destroying the engine or crashing into a highway barrier at full throttle, I'll gladly take crashing into the barrier in order to save the engine.Oh, wait...</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974534</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973810</id>
	<title>Pure electric vehicles</title>
	<author>OrangeTide</author>
	<datestamp>1264933020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>There won't really be any way stop the move to electronic controls once pure EV dominate the market. There are ways to do braking without using brake pads, different torques without using a transmission and things like a neutral gear don't even have to physically exist. Once cars get to this point I don't see any way around it. I, for one, will certainly miss having a manual transmission.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>There wo n't really be any way stop the move to electronic controls once pure EV dominate the market .
There are ways to do braking without using brake pads , different torques without using a transmission and things like a neutral gear do n't even have to physically exist .
Once cars get to this point I do n't see any way around it .
I , for one , will certainly miss having a manual transmission .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>There won't really be any way stop the move to electronic controls once pure EV dominate the market.
There are ways to do braking without using brake pads, different torques without using a transmission and things like a neutral gear don't even have to physically exist.
Once cars get to this point I don't see any way around it.
I, for one, will certainly miss having a manual transmission.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30977234</id>
	<title>Re:Mechanical systems have this problem too...</title>
	<author>gordguide</author>
	<datestamp>1264958040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>"<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... Throttle return springs are, I gather, a not entirely uncommon failure point. It's a specific line item check on Club Time Trials; I know this because the inspector and I had to try to figure out how to inspect the throttle return spring on my Audi, which also has a "fly by wire" throttle.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>..."</p><p>Your point is well taken, but on race vehicles with carburetors, it's mandatory to have dual throttle return springs<nobr> <wbr></nobr>... the second one's there to deal with failure of the first. It's also installed on production vehicles.<br>Similarly, on motorcycles it's mandatory to have dual throttle cables; one pulls, the other pushes. Failure of one cable, or the return spring, does not mean you can't close the throttle.<br>Braking systems on cars are designed in such a way that despite the common master cylinder, that master cylinder has two separate hydraulic systems with a common brake pedal. Typically if one system fails (say, broken brake line in right front wheel causing loss of all hydraulic fluid and thus braking) the other system maintains some braking effort. They're usually tied so that right front and left rear are on one system while left front and right rear on the other, giving even braking, relatively, to avoid pulling to one side (much).</p><p>It would seem that the problem is not the fly-by-wire per se, but that there may not be a redundant fail-safe system in place to deal with failure. It would not surprise me one bit to learn that what Toyota is installing in the recalled vehicles is such a redundant system, possibly mechanical backup, possibly electronic.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>" ... Throttle return springs are , I gather , a not entirely uncommon failure point .
It 's a specific line item check on Club Time Trials ; I know this because the inspector and I had to try to figure out how to inspect the throttle return spring on my Audi , which also has a " fly by wire " throttle .
... " Your point is well taken , but on race vehicles with carburetors , it 's mandatory to have dual throttle return springs ... the second one 's there to deal with failure of the first .
It 's also installed on production vehicles.Similarly , on motorcycles it 's mandatory to have dual throttle cables ; one pulls , the other pushes .
Failure of one cable , or the return spring , does not mean you ca n't close the throttle.Braking systems on cars are designed in such a way that despite the common master cylinder , that master cylinder has two separate hydraulic systems with a common brake pedal .
Typically if one system fails ( say , broken brake line in right front wheel causing loss of all hydraulic fluid and thus braking ) the other system maintains some braking effort .
They 're usually tied so that right front and left rear are on one system while left front and right rear on the other , giving even braking , relatively , to avoid pulling to one side ( much ) .It would seem that the problem is not the fly-by-wire per se , but that there may not be a redundant fail-safe system in place to deal with failure .
It would not surprise me one bit to learn that what Toyota is installing in the recalled vehicles is such a redundant system , possibly mechanical backup , possibly electronic .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>" ... Throttle return springs are, I gather, a not entirely uncommon failure point.
It's a specific line item check on Club Time Trials; I know this because the inspector and I had to try to figure out how to inspect the throttle return spring on my Audi, which also has a "fly by wire" throttle.
..."Your point is well taken, but on race vehicles with carburetors, it's mandatory to have dual throttle return springs ... the second one's there to deal with failure of the first.
It's also installed on production vehicles.Similarly, on motorcycles it's mandatory to have dual throttle cables; one pulls, the other pushes.
Failure of one cable, or the return spring, does not mean you can't close the throttle.Braking systems on cars are designed in such a way that despite the common master cylinder, that master cylinder has two separate hydraulic systems with a common brake pedal.
Typically if one system fails (say, broken brake line in right front wheel causing loss of all hydraulic fluid and thus braking) the other system maintains some braking effort.
They're usually tied so that right front and left rear are on one system while left front and right rear on the other, giving even braking, relatively, to avoid pulling to one side (much).It would seem that the problem is not the fly-by-wire per se, but that there may not be a redundant fail-safe system in place to deal with failure.
It would not surprise me one bit to learn that what Toyota is installing in the recalled vehicles is such a redundant system, possibly mechanical backup, possibly electronic.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974084</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30979636</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>danmcl</author>
	<datestamp>1265031540000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Just need to solve hills where the driver may need throttle and brake simultaneously to start moving, and it should work.</p></div><p>You see, this is why european cars are designed with a handbrake in the middle, and why most of them are NOT automatics. You just don't get as much control with an auto as you do with manual. Hell if these cars were manuals all they would have had to do was to push the clutch in, hey ho you're now no longer accelerating.

Stupid 'merkins not knowing how to drive manuals. FTS</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Just need to solve hills where the driver may need throttle and brake simultaneously to start moving , and it should work.You see , this is why european cars are designed with a handbrake in the middle , and why most of them are NOT automatics .
You just do n't get as much control with an auto as you do with manual .
Hell if these cars were manuals all they would have had to do was to push the clutch in , hey ho you 're now no longer accelerating .
Stupid 'merkins not knowing how to drive manuals .
FTS</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Just need to solve hills where the driver may need throttle and brake simultaneously to start moving, and it should work.You see, this is why european cars are designed with a handbrake in the middle, and why most of them are NOT automatics.
You just don't get as much control with an auto as you do with manual.
Hell if these cars were manuals all they would have had to do was to push the clutch in, hey ho you're now no longer accelerating.
Stupid 'merkins not knowing how to drive manuals.
FTS
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973370</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974110</id>
	<title>Don't bash Electronics for Mechanical Failures</title>
	<author>JakFrost</author>
	<datestamp>1264934460000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>4</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>This is a worthless story trying to bash electronics for a mechanical failure, and even the story admits that the electronics are not the problem in this specific case.  What a load of hogwash.  The article doesn't even mention or link to the real source of the problem and it fails to provide additional sources of information for people who might be affected.  Someone's got to kick timothy in the ass for getting this dribble posted on the front page.  At least post a story about a real electronics's failure causing serious problems such as the O2 sensor issue that the poster above mentioned, now that's a scary situation.</p><p><b>Our New Car</b></p><p>I just bought a <a href="http://www.edmunds.com/new/2010/toyota/camry/101147479/prices.html" title="edmunds.com">2010 Toyota Camry LE 2.5L I4 6-speed Automatic</a> [edmunds.com] with EX (Upgraded Radio) and QA (Aluminum Wheels) as a first car for my wife and I as we have just moved across the country to a new city.  This was the choice after a lot of researching and test driving of other vehicles and then eliminating them based on real cost of ownership, fuel efficiency, components used, safety ratings, the quality of built, the comfort of the ride, and the headaches or having to deal with the specific sales people (Honda, I'm looking at you!).</p><p>Just to make it clear that I'm not a Toyota fan boy and I am not a car person at all since don't find cars "sexy" and I was perfectly happy with my old 1994 Chrysler.  This new car is not the perfect vehicle for us, it was just the best in the class for the price.  There are some deficiencies in the car, such as the trip computer not showing you fuel efficiency ratings, the quality of the construction in the plastic covering under the engine, cheap plywood backing covering the spare tire in the trunk, and louder than normal wind noise coming from the front roof support posts and root during 80 mpg highway driving speeds, a cup holder divider that comes out anytime you take a cup out of it, and probably a bunch of other issues that we'll find out after more than 4-weeks of owning it.</p><p>This recall does not really trouble us since it is mentioned that the issue is rare, it only happens in cars sued for a while already, there is a environmental and humidity aspect to the problem with regards to condensation, and the cause is a gradual wearing down of a bushing that causes additional friction preventing the accelerator pedal from returning back to the home position that happens overtime and is noticeable with a pedal that starts becoming slow to return.</p><p>Our car was just manufactured in 2009-11 in Kentucky and I'll be checking the information below today on the weekend to see if our pedal is in the recall or not, most likely it it because it most likely has the CTS manufactured part.  I'll call the dealer and arrange for a replacement in a few weeks while after they get a handle on all the people that are coming to them now.  No rush on this.  I've also instructed my wife on how to resolve this problem if it does occur to her when she's driving by hitting the breaks and shifting into neutral gear, then turning the ignition off when she's safely off the road.</p><p>Below is some real information about this recall.</p><p><b> <a href="http://www.pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota/toyota-consumer-safety-advisory-102572.aspx" title="toyota.com">Toyota.com - Latest News About Toyota's Safety Recall Campaign</a> [toyota.com] </b> </p><blockquote><div><p> <b>1. Is my car safe to drive until a fix is issued?</b></p><p>The condition is rare and generally does not occur suddenly. It seems to occur when the pedal mechanism becomes worn and, in certain conditions, the accelerator pedal may become harder to depress, slower to return or, in the worst case, stuck in a partially depressed position.</p><p><b>3. What is the actual issue affecting accelerator pedals?</b></p><p>In rare instances, there is a possibility that the affected accelerator pedal may stick in a partially downward position or slowly return to the non-pressed position.</p><p><b>4. Is there actually a problem with the vehicle's computer/Electronic Control Unit?</b></p><p>Absolutely not. Toyota has never found an incident of unintended acceleration caused by the vehicle's computer/electronic control unit.</p><p><b>What if you experience a sticking accelerator pedal while driving?</b></p><p>Each circumstance may vary, and drivers must use their best judgment, but Toyota recommends taking one of the following actions:</p><p>
&nbsp; If you need to stop immediately, the vehicle can be controlled by stepping on the brake pedal with both feet using firm and steady pressure. Do not pump the brake pedal as it will deplete the vacuum utilized for the power brake assist.<br>
&nbsp; Shift the transmission gear selector to the Neutral (N) position and use the brakes to make a controlled stop at the side of the road and turn off the engine.<br>
&nbsp; If unable to put the vehicle in Neutral, turn the engine OFF. This will not cause loss of steering or braking control, but the power assist to these systems will be lost.<br>
&nbsp; If the vehicle is equipped with an Engine Start/Stop button, firmly and steadily push the button for at least three seconds to turn off the engine. Do NOT tap the Engine Start/Stop button.<br>
&nbsp; If the vehicle is equipped with a conventional key-ignition, turn the ignition key to the ACC position to turn off the engine. Do NOT remove the key from the ignition as this will lock the steering wheel.</p></div></blockquote><p><b> <a href="http://www.edmunds.com/industry-car-news/toyota-recall.html" title="edmunds.com">Edmunds.com - Toyota Recall: The Latest Info for Owners and Shoppers</a> [edmunds.com] </b> </p><blockquote><div><p>At the core of the issue is a throttle (gas) pedal mechanism that is installed in some Toyota vehicles (as well as the Pontiac Vibe) which could cause the vehicle to accelerate unexpectedly or not return to idle when the driver releases the gas pedal...  On January 21, 2010, a second recall was issued, related to a faulty accelerator pedal mechanism in some Toyota models.</p><p>Toyota's accelerator pedal recall and suspension of sales will affect the following Toyota vehicles:<br>2005-2010 Avalon<br>2007-2010 Camry (certain models, excluding Camry Hybrid)<br>2007-2010 Tundra<br>2008-2010 Sequoia<br>2009-2010 RAV4<br>2009-2010 Corolla<br>2009-2010 Matrix<br>2010 Highlander<br>2009-2010 Pontiac Vibe</p><p><b>The Faulty Gas Pedal Mechanism</b></p><p>While misplaced floor mats can, in some cases, hold down the accelerator pedal, the most recent recall has stemmed from a gas pedal mechanism found in some Toyota models. This part is made by CTS (based in Elkhart, Indiana), and, in some instances, has been found to increasingly stick as it wears. Time, temperature and humidity conditions are thought to affect the problem, which is still being investigated.</p><p>Not all of the gas pedals in the affected models are problematic, because the mechanism is supplied by more than one vendor. In general, Denso of Japan supplies throttle pedal assemblies for vehicles built in Japan (hence, Japanese-built Scion and Lexus are not included in the recall) and CTS supplies parts for vehicles built in the U.S. and Canada. A visual inspection can easily distinguish the two assemblies.</p><p>CTS, which said it built the component to Toyota's specification, announced that it has redesigned the gas pedal mechanism to perform safely. The new part is being manufactured and will be shipped to Toyota plants and to dealers waiting to repair recalled vehicles. CTS has insisted that no accidents or injuries have been caused by its defective gas pedal assembly. According to sources, Toyota has developed a solution to fix the cars already in consumers' hands. It is hoped that these repairs might begin to be implemented during the week of February 1.</p></div></blockquote><p><b> <a href="http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/2010/01/toyota-recall-update-3-how-to-tell-which-pedal-you-have.html" title="insideline.com">Edmund's InsideLine - Toyota Recall Update #3: How To Tell Which Pedal You Have</a> [insideline.com] </b> </p><blockquote><div><p>It turns out it's quite easy to tell which of the two possible throttle pedals your late-model Toyota was built with. Pedals made by CTS are subject to the recall, those made by Denso are not.</p><p>None of the employee cars I inspected with the recalled pedals had the slightest hint of a problem -- all operated smoothly and returned swiftly when released. Some of them were several years old with tens of thousands of miles, too.</p><p>That's to be expected, because the problem is still a rare development. A lot of cars are involved in the recall because Toyota needs to call in all of the cars with the suspect pedal to be absolutely sure a sticky throttle doesn't develop on more cars in the future.</p><p>It's worth noting that this new pedal issue does not replace the previously announced floormat interference recall. That issue is still in play for a different set of Toyota and Lexus vehicles.</p></div></blockquote></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>This is a worthless story trying to bash electronics for a mechanical failure , and even the story admits that the electronics are not the problem in this specific case .
What a load of hogwash .
The article does n't even mention or link to the real source of the problem and it fails to provide additional sources of information for people who might be affected .
Someone 's got to kick timothy in the ass for getting this dribble posted on the front page .
At least post a story about a real electronics 's failure causing serious problems such as the O2 sensor issue that the poster above mentioned , now that 's a scary situation.Our New CarI just bought a 2010 Toyota Camry LE 2.5L I4 6-speed Automatic [ edmunds.com ] with EX ( Upgraded Radio ) and QA ( Aluminum Wheels ) as a first car for my wife and I as we have just moved across the country to a new city .
This was the choice after a lot of researching and test driving of other vehicles and then eliminating them based on real cost of ownership , fuel efficiency , components used , safety ratings , the quality of built , the comfort of the ride , and the headaches or having to deal with the specific sales people ( Honda , I 'm looking at you !
) .Just to make it clear that I 'm not a Toyota fan boy and I am not a car person at all since do n't find cars " sexy " and I was perfectly happy with my old 1994 Chrysler .
This new car is not the perfect vehicle for us , it was just the best in the class for the price .
There are some deficiencies in the car , such as the trip computer not showing you fuel efficiency ratings , the quality of the construction in the plastic covering under the engine , cheap plywood backing covering the spare tire in the trunk , and louder than normal wind noise coming from the front roof support posts and root during 80 mpg highway driving speeds , a cup holder divider that comes out anytime you take a cup out of it , and probably a bunch of other issues that we 'll find out after more than 4-weeks of owning it.This recall does not really trouble us since it is mentioned that the issue is rare , it only happens in cars sued for a while already , there is a environmental and humidity aspect to the problem with regards to condensation , and the cause is a gradual wearing down of a bushing that causes additional friction preventing the accelerator pedal from returning back to the home position that happens overtime and is noticeable with a pedal that starts becoming slow to return.Our car was just manufactured in 2009-11 in Kentucky and I 'll be checking the information below today on the weekend to see if our pedal is in the recall or not , most likely it it because it most likely has the CTS manufactured part .
I 'll call the dealer and arrange for a replacement in a few weeks while after they get a handle on all the people that are coming to them now .
No rush on this .
I 've also instructed my wife on how to resolve this problem if it does occur to her when she 's driving by hitting the breaks and shifting into neutral gear , then turning the ignition off when she 's safely off the road.Below is some real information about this recall .
Toyota.com - Latest News About Toyota 's Safety Recall Campaign [ toyota.com ] 1 .
Is my car safe to drive until a fix is issued ? The condition is rare and generally does not occur suddenly .
It seems to occur when the pedal mechanism becomes worn and , in certain conditions , the accelerator pedal may become harder to depress , slower to return or , in the worst case , stuck in a partially depressed position.3 .
What is the actual issue affecting accelerator pedals ? In rare instances , there is a possibility that the affected accelerator pedal may stick in a partially downward position or slowly return to the non-pressed position.4 .
Is there actually a problem with the vehicle 's computer/Electronic Control Unit ? Absolutely not .
Toyota has never found an incident of unintended acceleration caused by the vehicle 's computer/electronic control unit.What if you experience a sticking accelerator pedal while driving ? Each circumstance may vary , and drivers must use their best judgment , but Toyota recommends taking one of the following actions :   If you need to stop immediately , the vehicle can be controlled by stepping on the brake pedal with both feet using firm and steady pressure .
Do not pump the brake pedal as it will deplete the vacuum utilized for the power brake assist .
  Shift the transmission gear selector to the Neutral ( N ) position and use the brakes to make a controlled stop at the side of the road and turn off the engine .
  If unable to put the vehicle in Neutral , turn the engine OFF .
This will not cause loss of steering or braking control , but the power assist to these systems will be lost .
  If the vehicle is equipped with an Engine Start/Stop button , firmly and steadily push the button for at least three seconds to turn off the engine .
Do NOT tap the Engine Start/Stop button .
  If the vehicle is equipped with a conventional key-ignition , turn the ignition key to the ACC position to turn off the engine .
Do NOT remove the key from the ignition as this will lock the steering wheel .
Edmunds.com - Toyota Recall : The Latest Info for Owners and Shoppers [ edmunds.com ] At the core of the issue is a throttle ( gas ) pedal mechanism that is installed in some Toyota vehicles ( as well as the Pontiac Vibe ) which could cause the vehicle to accelerate unexpectedly or not return to idle when the driver releases the gas pedal... On January 21 , 2010 , a second recall was issued , related to a faulty accelerator pedal mechanism in some Toyota models.Toyota 's accelerator pedal recall and suspension of sales will affect the following Toyota vehicles : 2005-2010 Avalon2007-2010 Camry ( certain models , excluding Camry Hybrid ) 2007-2010 Tundra2008-2010 Sequoia2009-2010 RAV42009-2010 Corolla2009-2010 Matrix2010 Highlander2009-2010 Pontiac VibeThe Faulty Gas Pedal MechanismWhile misplaced floor mats can , in some cases , hold down the accelerator pedal , the most recent recall has stemmed from a gas pedal mechanism found in some Toyota models .
This part is made by CTS ( based in Elkhart , Indiana ) , and , in some instances , has been found to increasingly stick as it wears .
Time , temperature and humidity conditions are thought to affect the problem , which is still being investigated.Not all of the gas pedals in the affected models are problematic , because the mechanism is supplied by more than one vendor .
In general , Denso of Japan supplies throttle pedal assemblies for vehicles built in Japan ( hence , Japanese-built Scion and Lexus are not included in the recall ) and CTS supplies parts for vehicles built in the U.S. and Canada .
A visual inspection can easily distinguish the two assemblies.CTS , which said it built the component to Toyota 's specification , announced that it has redesigned the gas pedal mechanism to perform safely .
The new part is being manufactured and will be shipped to Toyota plants and to dealers waiting to repair recalled vehicles .
CTS has insisted that no accidents or injuries have been caused by its defective gas pedal assembly .
According to sources , Toyota has developed a solution to fix the cars already in consumers ' hands .
It is hoped that these repairs might begin to be implemented during the week of February 1 .
Edmund 's InsideLine - Toyota Recall Update # 3 : How To Tell Which Pedal You Have [ insideline.com ] It turns out it 's quite easy to tell which of the two possible throttle pedals your late-model Toyota was built with .
Pedals made by CTS are subject to the recall , those made by Denso are not.None of the employee cars I inspected with the recalled pedals had the slightest hint of a problem -- all operated smoothly and returned swiftly when released .
Some of them were several years old with tens of thousands of miles , too.That 's to be expected , because the problem is still a rare development .
A lot of cars are involved in the recall because Toyota needs to call in all of the cars with the suspect pedal to be absolutely sure a sticky throttle does n't develop on more cars in the future.It 's worth noting that this new pedal issue does not replace the previously announced floormat interference recall .
That issue is still in play for a different set of Toyota and Lexus vehicles .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>This is a worthless story trying to bash electronics for a mechanical failure, and even the story admits that the electronics are not the problem in this specific case.
What a load of hogwash.
The article doesn't even mention or link to the real source of the problem and it fails to provide additional sources of information for people who might be affected.
Someone's got to kick timothy in the ass for getting this dribble posted on the front page.
At least post a story about a real electronics's failure causing serious problems such as the O2 sensor issue that the poster above mentioned, now that's a scary situation.Our New CarI just bought a 2010 Toyota Camry LE 2.5L I4 6-speed Automatic [edmunds.com] with EX (Upgraded Radio) and QA (Aluminum Wheels) as a first car for my wife and I as we have just moved across the country to a new city.
This was the choice after a lot of researching and test driving of other vehicles and then eliminating them based on real cost of ownership, fuel efficiency, components used, safety ratings, the quality of built, the comfort of the ride, and the headaches or having to deal with the specific sales people (Honda, I'm looking at you!
).Just to make it clear that I'm not a Toyota fan boy and I am not a car person at all since don't find cars "sexy" and I was perfectly happy with my old 1994 Chrysler.
This new car is not the perfect vehicle for us, it was just the best in the class for the price.
There are some deficiencies in the car, such as the trip computer not showing you fuel efficiency ratings, the quality of the construction in the plastic covering under the engine, cheap plywood backing covering the spare tire in the trunk, and louder than normal wind noise coming from the front roof support posts and root during 80 mpg highway driving speeds, a cup holder divider that comes out anytime you take a cup out of it, and probably a bunch of other issues that we'll find out after more than 4-weeks of owning it.This recall does not really trouble us since it is mentioned that the issue is rare, it only happens in cars sued for a while already, there is a environmental and humidity aspect to the problem with regards to condensation, and the cause is a gradual wearing down of a bushing that causes additional friction preventing the accelerator pedal from returning back to the home position that happens overtime and is noticeable with a pedal that starts becoming slow to return.Our car was just manufactured in 2009-11 in Kentucky and I'll be checking the information below today on the weekend to see if our pedal is in the recall or not, most likely it it because it most likely has the CTS manufactured part.
I'll call the dealer and arrange for a replacement in a few weeks while after they get a handle on all the people that are coming to them now.
No rush on this.
I've also instructed my wife on how to resolve this problem if it does occur to her when she's driving by hitting the breaks and shifting into neutral gear, then turning the ignition off when she's safely off the road.Below is some real information about this recall.
Toyota.com - Latest News About Toyota's Safety Recall Campaign [toyota.com]   1.
Is my car safe to drive until a fix is issued?The condition is rare and generally does not occur suddenly.
It seems to occur when the pedal mechanism becomes worn and, in certain conditions, the accelerator pedal may become harder to depress, slower to return or, in the worst case, stuck in a partially depressed position.3.
What is the actual issue affecting accelerator pedals?In rare instances, there is a possibility that the affected accelerator pedal may stick in a partially downward position or slowly return to the non-pressed position.4.
Is there actually a problem with the vehicle's computer/Electronic Control Unit?Absolutely not.
Toyota has never found an incident of unintended acceleration caused by the vehicle's computer/electronic control unit.What if you experience a sticking accelerator pedal while driving?Each circumstance may vary, and drivers must use their best judgment, but Toyota recommends taking one of the following actions:
  If you need to stop immediately, the vehicle can be controlled by stepping on the brake pedal with both feet using firm and steady pressure.
Do not pump the brake pedal as it will deplete the vacuum utilized for the power brake assist.
  Shift the transmission gear selector to the Neutral (N) position and use the brakes to make a controlled stop at the side of the road and turn off the engine.
  If unable to put the vehicle in Neutral, turn the engine OFF.
This will not cause loss of steering or braking control, but the power assist to these systems will be lost.
  If the vehicle is equipped with an Engine Start/Stop button, firmly and steadily push the button for at least three seconds to turn off the engine.
Do NOT tap the Engine Start/Stop button.
  If the vehicle is equipped with a conventional key-ignition, turn the ignition key to the ACC position to turn off the engine.
Do NOT remove the key from the ignition as this will lock the steering wheel.
Edmunds.com - Toyota Recall: The Latest Info for Owners and Shoppers [edmunds.com]  At the core of the issue is a throttle (gas) pedal mechanism that is installed in some Toyota vehicles (as well as the Pontiac Vibe) which could cause the vehicle to accelerate unexpectedly or not return to idle when the driver releases the gas pedal...  On January 21, 2010, a second recall was issued, related to a faulty accelerator pedal mechanism in some Toyota models.Toyota's accelerator pedal recall and suspension of sales will affect the following Toyota vehicles:2005-2010 Avalon2007-2010 Camry (certain models, excluding Camry Hybrid)2007-2010 Tundra2008-2010 Sequoia2009-2010 RAV42009-2010 Corolla2009-2010 Matrix2010 Highlander2009-2010 Pontiac VibeThe Faulty Gas Pedal MechanismWhile misplaced floor mats can, in some cases, hold down the accelerator pedal, the most recent recall has stemmed from a gas pedal mechanism found in some Toyota models.
This part is made by CTS (based in Elkhart, Indiana), and, in some instances, has been found to increasingly stick as it wears.
Time, temperature and humidity conditions are thought to affect the problem, which is still being investigated.Not all of the gas pedals in the affected models are problematic, because the mechanism is supplied by more than one vendor.
In general, Denso of Japan supplies throttle pedal assemblies for vehicles built in Japan (hence, Japanese-built Scion and Lexus are not included in the recall) and CTS supplies parts for vehicles built in the U.S. and Canada.
A visual inspection can easily distinguish the two assemblies.CTS, which said it built the component to Toyota's specification, announced that it has redesigned the gas pedal mechanism to perform safely.
The new part is being manufactured and will be shipped to Toyota plants and to dealers waiting to repair recalled vehicles.
CTS has insisted that no accidents or injuries have been caused by its defective gas pedal assembly.
According to sources, Toyota has developed a solution to fix the cars already in consumers' hands.
It is hoped that these repairs might begin to be implemented during the week of February 1.
Edmund's InsideLine - Toyota Recall Update #3: How To Tell Which Pedal You Have [insideline.com]  It turns out it's quite easy to tell which of the two possible throttle pedals your late-model Toyota was built with.
Pedals made by CTS are subject to the recall, those made by Denso are not.None of the employee cars I inspected with the recalled pedals had the slightest hint of a problem -- all operated smoothly and returned swiftly when released.
Some of them were several years old with tens of thousands of miles, too.That's to be expected, because the problem is still a rare development.
A lot of cars are involved in the recall because Toyota needs to call in all of the cars with the suspect pedal to be absolutely sure a sticky throttle doesn't develop on more cars in the future.It's worth noting that this new pedal issue does not replace the previously announced floormat interference recall.
That issue is still in play for a different set of Toyota and Lexus vehicles.
	</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975320</id>
	<title>Re:missing option Manual Transmission</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264942200000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Is Germany, only pussies drive automatic cars. And we laugh at them. They're for people who can't drive.<br>Really. Automatic cars are the exception here. And for good reasons.</i></p><p>The main reason is that gasoline/diesel is so heavily taxed in Europe, and fuel economy is so much better with a manual transmission.</p><p>Only 10\% of cars in the USA are manual transmission (and gas taxes are much lower).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Is Germany , only pussies drive automatic cars .
And we laugh at them .
They 're for people who ca n't drive.Really .
Automatic cars are the exception here .
And for good reasons.The main reason is that gasoline/diesel is so heavily taxed in Europe , and fuel economy is so much better with a manual transmission.Only 10 \ % of cars in the USA are manual transmission ( and gas taxes are much lower ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is Germany, only pussies drive automatic cars.
And we laugh at them.
They're for people who can't drive.Really.
Automatic cars are the exception here.
And for good reasons.The main reason is that gasoline/diesel is so heavily taxed in Europe, and fuel economy is so much better with a manual transmission.Only 10\% of cars in the USA are manual transmission (and gas taxes are much lower).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974192</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973584</id>
	<title>Re:I design computer hardware and software...</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264931760000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>3</modscore>
	<htmltext>Yeah, that's why I'm always a bit nervous when flying with airbus.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Yeah , that 's why I 'm always a bit nervous when flying with airbus .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Yeah, that's why I'm always a bit nervous when flying with airbus.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973210</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974546</id>
	<title>Re:No. It's a SOFTWARE Problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264937040000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext>Perhaps throttle-by-wire should have a simple pressure sensitive switch where your foot rests on the pedal -- no foot pressure overrides any non-zero throttle position and sets the engine to idle?  This still allows skilled drivers to use throttle and brakes together (to make the car turn).<p>
There are already interlocks for starting manual transmission cars, the clutch must be disengaged, before the engine can be cranked.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Perhaps throttle-by-wire should have a simple pressure sensitive switch where your foot rests on the pedal -- no foot pressure overrides any non-zero throttle position and sets the engine to idle ?
This still allows skilled drivers to use throttle and brakes together ( to make the car turn ) .
There are already interlocks for starting manual transmission cars , the clutch must be disengaged , before the engine can be cranked .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Perhaps throttle-by-wire should have a simple pressure sensitive switch where your foot rests on the pedal -- no foot pressure overrides any non-zero throttle position and sets the engine to idle?
This still allows skilled drivers to use throttle and brakes together (to make the car turn).
There are already interlocks for starting manual transmission cars, the clutch must be disengaged, before the engine can be cranked.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973878</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973224</id>
	<title>Stupid summary, stupid story</title>
	<author>russotto</author>
	<datestamp>1264930020000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Informativ</modclass>
	<modscore>5</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Summary is stupid because there's no hoses and hydraulics in any car throttle system I've seen; if it's not electronic, it's a very simple and reliable steel cable.</p><p>Story is stupid because as it admits, the electronics had nothing to do with the problem; the failure was mechanical.  The exact same thing could have happened to a cable-operated system.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Summary is stupid because there 's no hoses and hydraulics in any car throttle system I 've seen ; if it 's not electronic , it 's a very simple and reliable steel cable.Story is stupid because as it admits , the electronics had nothing to do with the problem ; the failure was mechanical .
The exact same thing could have happened to a cable-operated system .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Summary is stupid because there's no hoses and hydraulics in any car throttle system I've seen; if it's not electronic, it's a very simple and reliable steel cable.Story is stupid because as it admits, the electronics had nothing to do with the problem; the failure was mechanical.
The exact same thing could have happened to a cable-operated system.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30978346</id>
	<title>Re:Ford 'cruise control terror driver' excellent l</title>
	<author>Askmum</author>
	<datestamp>1265014980000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>I've tried pressing the brakepedal while keeping the accelerator to the floor in my car. Now, at 100 bhp my car may not be the most powerful, so I don't know what this does in other cars, but I was able to stop my car without any problem in a very reasonable distance.<br> <br>
But I do wonder: why does it take him 50 minutes to pull the handbrake and step on the brakes? Why couldn't he have done this immediately?</htmltext>
<tokenext>I 've tried pressing the brakepedal while keeping the accelerator to the floor in my car .
Now , at 100 bhp my car may not be the most powerful , so I do n't know what this does in other cars , but I was able to stop my car without any problem in a very reasonable distance .
But I do wonder : why does it take him 50 minutes to pull the handbrake and step on the brakes ?
Why could n't he have done this immediately ?</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I've tried pressing the brakepedal while keeping the accelerator to the floor in my car.
Now, at 100 bhp my car may not be the most powerful, so I don't know what this does in other cars, but I was able to stop my car without any problem in a very reasonable distance.
But I do wonder: why does it take him 50 minutes to pull the handbrake and step on the brakes?
Why couldn't he have done this immediately?</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974502</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973854</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264933260000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>Steps for starting a manual transmission car pointed up a steep grade:</i></p><p><i>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1. Press brake pedal Hard<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2. Release Parking Brake<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3. Depress Clutch<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4. Start Engine<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 5. Depress throttle without releasing the brake (Heal on break, toes on throttle)<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 6. Release Clutch and break smothly so the car does not roll backwards.</i></p><p><i>Do you see the problem with your solution?</i></p><p>Well, you're flat out wrong. The correct procedure is:</p><p>1. Make sure parking brake is on.<br>2. Press clutch (with left foot) and start car, and keep the clutch depressed.<br>3. Move transmission into desired gear (first or reverse).<br>4. Slowly release the clutch (with left foot) while pressing the gas (with right foot) and releasing the parking brake (with hand).<br>5. Drive normally.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Steps for starting a manual transmission car pointed up a steep grade :       1 .
Press brake pedal Hard       2 .
Release Parking Brake       3 .
Depress Clutch       4 .
Start Engine       5 .
Depress throttle without releasing the brake ( Heal on break , toes on throttle )       6 .
Release Clutch and break smothly so the car does not roll backwards.Do you see the problem with your solution ? Well , you 're flat out wrong .
The correct procedure is : 1 .
Make sure parking brake is on.2 .
Press clutch ( with left foot ) and start car , and keep the clutch depressed.3 .
Move transmission into desired gear ( first or reverse ) .4 .
Slowly release the clutch ( with left foot ) while pressing the gas ( with right foot ) and releasing the parking brake ( with hand ) .5 .
Drive normally .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Steps for starting a manual transmission car pointed up a steep grade:
      1.
Press brake pedal Hard
      2.
Release Parking Brake
      3.
Depress Clutch
      4.
Start Engine
      5.
Depress throttle without releasing the brake (Heal on break, toes on throttle)
      6.
Release Clutch and break smothly so the car does not roll backwards.Do you see the problem with your solution?Well, you're flat out wrong.
The correct procedure is:1.
Make sure parking brake is on.2.
Press clutch (with left foot) and start car, and keep the clutch depressed.3.
Move transmission into desired gear (first or reverse).4.
Slowly release the clutch (with left foot) while pressing the gas (with right foot) and releasing the parking brake (with hand).5.
Drive normally.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973582</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973948</id>
	<title>Re:Drive By Wire not really the problem</title>
	<author>maxwell demon</author>
	<datestamp>1264933680000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>That's not the way I've learned it. The way I learned it you do <em>not</em> use the break pedal at all, but release the hand brake while releasing the clutch. Indeed, operating two pedals with one foot sounds rather dangerous to me: Too easy to slip from one of the pedals (esp. the break pedal).</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>That 's not the way I 've learned it .
The way I learned it you do not use the break pedal at all , but release the hand brake while releasing the clutch .
Indeed , operating two pedals with one foot sounds rather dangerous to me : Too easy to slip from one of the pedals ( esp .
the break pedal ) .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>That's not the way I've learned it.
The way I learned it you do not use the break pedal at all, but release the hand brake while releasing the clutch.
Indeed, operating two pedals with one foot sounds rather dangerous to me: Too easy to slip from one of the pedals (esp.
the break pedal).</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973582</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30980620</id>
	<title>One possible remedy to the problem.</title>
	<author>miffo.swe</author>
	<datestamp>1265037480000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>One possible way of solving and failproof a potentiometer controlled gas pedal is to have a microswitch with its own circuit breaking fuel injection whenever the pedal is released, regardless of where the primary system thinks the throttle is. Helps against both logical errors in software and mechanical errors.</p><p>That way even if the potentiometer/whatever fails the car stops accelerating as soon as you take your foot off the pedal which is the normal reaction to a sudden acceleration.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>One possible way of solving and failproof a potentiometer controlled gas pedal is to have a microswitch with its own circuit breaking fuel injection whenever the pedal is released , regardless of where the primary system thinks the throttle is .
Helps against both logical errors in software and mechanical errors.That way even if the potentiometer/whatever fails the car stops accelerating as soon as you take your foot off the pedal which is the normal reaction to a sudden acceleration .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>One possible way of solving and failproof a potentiometer controlled gas pedal is to have a microswitch with its own circuit breaking fuel injection whenever the pedal is released, regardless of where the primary system thinks the throttle is.
Helps against both logical errors in software and mechanical errors.That way even if the potentiometer/whatever fails the car stops accelerating as soon as you take your foot off the pedal which is the normal reaction to a sudden acceleration.</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30977276</id>
	<title>Re:Camry Hybrid &amp; drive by wire</title>
	<author>ChrisMaple</author>
	<datestamp>1264958580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext>Parking brakes require attention. They're usually feeble in the first place, and don't get better as they age. The cables can stretch and the mechanisms come out of adjustment, so that a parking brake on a poorly maintained old car is almost useless. Even some states with mandatory inspections don't bother to check.</htmltext>
<tokenext>Parking brakes require attention .
They 're usually feeble in the first place , and do n't get better as they age .
The cables can stretch and the mechanisms come out of adjustment , so that a parking brake on a poorly maintained old car is almost useless .
Even some states with mandatory inspections do n't bother to check .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Parking brakes require attention.
They're usually feeble in the first place, and don't get better as they age.
The cables can stretch and the mechanisms come out of adjustment, so that a parking brake on a poorly maintained old car is almost useless.
Even some states with mandatory inspections don't bother to check.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973422</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973536</id>
	<title>Re:Misleading story...</title>
	<author>FonzCam</author>
	<datestamp>1264931520000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Insightful</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>The issue isn't the sticky pedal it's what you can do about stopping a car once it sticks.  In a traditional mechanical car you can simply put the car in neutral, pull over and stop.  If for some reason you can't get it into neutral then you could still turn off the car by turning the ignition key to off.  With a keyless ignition and all electronic gearbox you rely the designers of your drive-by-wire system to have foreseen this type of situation and have included an appropriate failsafe in their system.</p><p>In the case of the runaway Toyota pressing the ignition to turn the car off does nothing (to stop you accidentally turning the car off) and the gear selector wouldn't select neutral (presumably because the accelerator was on full) the correct thing to do is hold down the start button for 3 seconds and that shuts down the engine.  </p><p>With mechanical systems you can simply disconnect them and they stop working, with electronic systems you need to know a shutdown procedure and these procedurers are currently specific to each model of car.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The issue is n't the sticky pedal it 's what you can do about stopping a car once it sticks .
In a traditional mechanical car you can simply put the car in neutral , pull over and stop .
If for some reason you ca n't get it into neutral then you could still turn off the car by turning the ignition key to off .
With a keyless ignition and all electronic gearbox you rely the designers of your drive-by-wire system to have foreseen this type of situation and have included an appropriate failsafe in their system.In the case of the runaway Toyota pressing the ignition to turn the car off does nothing ( to stop you accidentally turning the car off ) and the gear selector would n't select neutral ( presumably because the accelerator was on full ) the correct thing to do is hold down the start button for 3 seconds and that shuts down the engine .
With mechanical systems you can simply disconnect them and they stop working , with electronic systems you need to know a shutdown procedure and these procedurers are currently specific to each model of car .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The issue isn't the sticky pedal it's what you can do about stopping a car once it sticks.
In a traditional mechanical car you can simply put the car in neutral, pull over and stop.
If for some reason you can't get it into neutral then you could still turn off the car by turning the ignition key to off.
With a keyless ignition and all electronic gearbox you rely the designers of your drive-by-wire system to have foreseen this type of situation and have included an appropriate failsafe in their system.In the case of the runaway Toyota pressing the ignition to turn the car off does nothing (to stop you accidentally turning the car off) and the gear selector wouldn't select neutral (presumably because the accelerator was on full) the correct thing to do is hold down the start button for 3 seconds and that shuts down the engine.
With mechanical systems you can simply disconnect them and they stop working, with electronic systems you need to know a shutdown procedure and these procedurers are currently specific to each model of car.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973226</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30978116</id>
	<title>Re:This is pure speculation, but my gut says ECM</title>
	<author>NewtonsLaw</author>
	<datestamp>1265054880000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I assume this only happens in the automatic versions?</p><p>Being "old school", I often use the brake and accelerator at the same time with my stick-shift vehicles.</p><p>Why?</p><p>Because it allows me to rev-match as I downshift while braking.</p><p>It's called "heel-toe" and enables very smooth gearshifts without having to slip the clutch (by giving a blip of throttle with the heel of your foot) as you move down through the gearbox under braking.</p><p>I guess those old driving skills aren't taught or used anymore but I'd be real pissed if the ECM on my new Toyota was reprogrammed to effectively disable the accelerator while I was braking!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I assume this only happens in the automatic versions ? Being " old school " , I often use the brake and accelerator at the same time with my stick-shift vehicles.Why ? Because it allows me to rev-match as I downshift while braking.It 's called " heel-toe " and enables very smooth gearshifts without having to slip the clutch ( by giving a blip of throttle with the heel of your foot ) as you move down through the gearbox under braking.I guess those old driving skills are n't taught or used anymore but I 'd be real pissed if the ECM on my new Toyota was reprogrammed to effectively disable the accelerator while I was braking !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I assume this only happens in the automatic versions?Being "old school", I often use the brake and accelerator at the same time with my stick-shift vehicles.Why?Because it allows me to rev-match as I downshift while braking.It's called "heel-toe" and enables very smooth gearshifts without having to slip the clutch (by giving a blip of throttle with the heel of your foot) as you move down through the gearbox under braking.I guess those old driving skills aren't taught or used anymore but I'd be real pissed if the ECM on my new Toyota was reprogrammed to effectively disable the accelerator while I was braking!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974688</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30977180</id>
	<title>Re:missing option Manual Transmission</title>
	<author>shutdown -p now</author>
	<datestamp>1264957620000</datestamp>
	<modclass>Interestin</modclass>
	<modscore>2</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><div class="quote"><p>Is Germany, only pussies drive automatic cars. And we laugh at them. They&rsquo;re for people who can&rsquo;t drive.<br>Really. Automatic cars are the exception here. And for good reasons.</p></div><p>Same thing back in Russia, and, as one of the "pussies", I must say that I'm really glad that there's none of this bullshit here in North America. AT is one of the key major advances in automobile tech in the last century; to dismiss it as "unmanly" is beyond stupid, and bordering on luddism.</p><p>My car is a tool for getting me from point A to point B with maximum comfort and minimum hassle, not some kind of a statement on how much of a macho I am.</p></div>
	</htmltext>
<tokenext>Is Germany , only pussies drive automatic cars .
And we laugh at them .
They    re for people who can    t drive.Really .
Automatic cars are the exception here .
And for good reasons.Same thing back in Russia , and , as one of the " pussies " , I must say that I 'm really glad that there 's none of this bullshit here in North America .
AT is one of the key major advances in automobile tech in the last century ; to dismiss it as " unmanly " is beyond stupid , and bordering on luddism.My car is a tool for getting me from point A to point B with maximum comfort and minimum hassle , not some kind of a statement on how much of a macho I am .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Is Germany, only pussies drive automatic cars.
And we laugh at them.
They’re for people who can’t drive.Really.
Automatic cars are the exception here.
And for good reasons.Same thing back in Russia, and, as one of the "pussies", I must say that I'm really glad that there's none of this bullshit here in North America.
AT is one of the key major advances in automobile tech in the last century; to dismiss it as "unmanly" is beyond stupid, and bordering on luddism.My car is a tool for getting me from point A to point B with maximum comfort and minimum hassle, not some kind of a statement on how much of a macho I am.
	</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974192</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975884</id>
	<title>Re:The way this ought to work</title>
	<author>Grishnakh</author>
	<datestamp>1264945740000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p><i>The way this ought to work is that there should be two different sensors in the pedal, and they should be of different types, like one resistive pot and one Hall-effect transducer. </i></p><p>They won't do this; it'll cost too much.  Remember, when dealing with quantities in the 100,000s, a $1 savings on a part adds up to a lot.  This isn't aviation; they don't care about redundancy in cars.</p><p><i>I knew the people who designed the Ford EEC IV in the 1980s, and they thought like that. They were terrified of a software problem that affected safety. In the EEC IV, the program was masked directly into the CPU chip's ROM, and cannot be changed. (There's a bolted-on ROM unit that has the data tables for each engine model, and you can replace that, but there's no code in it.) It never needed to be; cars with the EEC IV are still running, and there was never a recall for a "firmware update".</i></p><p>Yes, and that was back in the days when embedded systems were programmed in assembly.  Now, they have tons of C++ or Java libraries, multi-GHz CPUs, buggy OSes, etc.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>The way this ought to work is that there should be two different sensors in the pedal , and they should be of different types , like one resistive pot and one Hall-effect transducer .
They wo n't do this ; it 'll cost too much .
Remember , when dealing with quantities in the 100,000s , a $ 1 savings on a part adds up to a lot .
This is n't aviation ; they do n't care about redundancy in cars.I knew the people who designed the Ford EEC IV in the 1980s , and they thought like that .
They were terrified of a software problem that affected safety .
In the EEC IV , the program was masked directly into the CPU chip 's ROM , and can not be changed .
( There 's a bolted-on ROM unit that has the data tables for each engine model , and you can replace that , but there 's no code in it .
) It never needed to be ; cars with the EEC IV are still running , and there was never a recall for a " firmware update " .Yes , and that was back in the days when embedded systems were programmed in assembly .
Now , they have tons of C + + or Java libraries , multi-GHz CPUs , buggy OSes , etc .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>The way this ought to work is that there should be two different sensors in the pedal, and they should be of different types, like one resistive pot and one Hall-effect transducer.
They won't do this; it'll cost too much.
Remember, when dealing with quantities in the 100,000s, a $1 savings on a part adds up to a lot.
This isn't aviation; they don't care about redundancy in cars.I knew the people who designed the Ford EEC IV in the 1980s, and they thought like that.
They were terrified of a software problem that affected safety.
In the EEC IV, the program was masked directly into the CPU chip's ROM, and cannot be changed.
(There's a bolted-on ROM unit that has the data tables for each engine model, and you can replace that, but there's no code in it.
) It never needed to be; cars with the EEC IV are still running, and there was never a recall for a "firmware update".Yes, and that was back in the days when embedded systems were programmed in assembly.
Now, they have tons of C++ or Java libraries, multi-GHz CPUs, buggy OSes, etc.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973720</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975968</id>
	<title>Re:If you have a problem with "drive by wire"</title>
	<author>Grishnakh</author>
	<datestamp>1264946220000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Wrong.  A commercial airliner costs between $100 million and $250 million.  How much does your dinky little car cost?  Airliners use something called "redundancy" to avoid problems with their fly-by-wire systems.  Cars don't have redundancy; it adds to the unit cost, and $1 saved on a part adds up to a lot when you make 1 million cars with that part.  And when a $250 million airplane crashes, it's world news, and the FAA thoroughly investigates the incident, recovering all parts of the plane and examining everything in microscopic detail to see what went wrong.  When a car crashes and people die, they just haul it to the junkyard.</p><p>The people and companies that design and manufacture control systems for 1/4-billion-dollar aircraft are not the same people and companies that make control systems for average family cars.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Wrong .
A commercial airliner costs between $ 100 million and $ 250 million .
How much does your dinky little car cost ?
Airliners use something called " redundancy " to avoid problems with their fly-by-wire systems .
Cars do n't have redundancy ; it adds to the unit cost , and $ 1 saved on a part adds up to a lot when you make 1 million cars with that part .
And when a $ 250 million airplane crashes , it 's world news , and the FAA thoroughly investigates the incident , recovering all parts of the plane and examining everything in microscopic detail to see what went wrong .
When a car crashes and people die , they just haul it to the junkyard.The people and companies that design and manufacture control systems for 1/4-billion-dollar aircraft are not the same people and companies that make control systems for average family cars .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Wrong.
A commercial airliner costs between $100 million and $250 million.
How much does your dinky little car cost?
Airliners use something called "redundancy" to avoid problems with their fly-by-wire systems.
Cars don't have redundancy; it adds to the unit cost, and $1 saved on a part adds up to a lot when you make 1 million cars with that part.
And when a $250 million airplane crashes, it's world news, and the FAA thoroughly investigates the incident, recovering all parts of the plane and examining everything in microscopic detail to see what went wrong.
When a car crashes and people die, they just haul it to the junkyard.The people and companies that design and manufacture control systems for 1/4-billion-dollar aircraft are not the same people and companies that make control systems for average family cars.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973918</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30978870</id>
	<title>Reinventing the Wheel</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1265022000000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>I'm a former turner of wrenches gone geek, its much cleaner.</p><p>Power output on a gasoline engine is controlled by varying the density of the intake charge, gasoline engines have a movable throttle plate on the intake manifold. The intake charge needs to be say ~14:1 by weight air to fuel. Partly because the fuel is lit by an electric spark, also because of the air/fuel chemistry.</p><p>This is the way a gasoline engine works, 75 years ago or now. Only the control systems have changed. Early last century someone actually tried ignition via open flame heating a metal rod red hot that went through the head into the combustion chamber.</p><p>As an aside diesel does not have a throttle plate, power output is controlled by the amount fuel injected into directly into combustion chamber. The fuel is lit by the temperature of the compressed intake charge.</p><p>Back to gasoline, you can dump the fuel in at the throttle plate, via carburetor or throttle body fuel injection. Or directly into the intake port more or less over the intake valve. This works best, direct port fuel injection. Gasoline mechanical fuel injection is alright but EFI just seems more copacetic</p><p>Traditionally the throttle plate has a coil spring on one side of the shaft that wants to slam, blood blister inducing slam, the throttle plate shut. There is also a link that goes ultimately to the gas pedal. It used to be rods, but bushings get wonky and rods are harder to get around corners. I recall old worn rods that go sideways as much as move clutches, throttles, shifters etc. Cables are great at going around corners. The nice, sanitary way to do a clutch is hydraulics, like brakes.</p><p>I admit that the fly by wire thing does in fact work if done right.</p><p>The EFI needs to know, amongst other things the throttle position. Once again traditionally a throttle position sensor is placed on the throttle shaft.</p><p>I think there are two issues, firstly I think Toyota engineers reinvented the wheel when they didn't have to. Secondly, if you are going to reinvent the kind of wheel that can get people hurt or killed you really need to do it right.</p><p>A short rant, automotive engineers I talking to you, to be fair I realize that the design process starts by people deciding what the car is going to look like first, then you get to make it work without costing much.</p><p>I recall the clutch petal assemblies on certain unnamed American light trucks back in the early 80's when CAD started apparently becoming more common.<br>Intricate, thin section, bead blasted, lots of nice angles and radii, no metal where it apparently didn't need to be, cast aluminum "cages" rather than the traditional stamped steel "boxy thing." The metal was too thin and the casting flash was not ground off. Result millions of little jaggedy edges for cracks to start. It was near impossible to find one that wasn't cracked or starting to. These were replace by very obviously much thicker cast aluminum "cages." They were not as "trick" looking, they wouldn't crack but the bushings would go all wonky.</p><p>Then relays started propagating... power a relay to turn everything and anything on.This makes for cheaper/smaller switches that can do more things, no problem. But... let us bury said relay, plugs and harness mind you, some place deep under the dash where you can see it but not reach it. Half an hour or more to get to it, a minute or two to change it, then you get to put it back together, desperately trying to do it "right" so you don't get complaints about rattles and squeeks etc...</p><p>And who decided to run the rollers as in roller bearing directly on axel shafts in certain light trucks?</p><p>And what was wrong with brass pilot bearings? Let's put a permanently sealed bearing instead, it won't stay sealed (they never do), dries out and comes apart when you change it, leaving the outer race in the end of the crankshaft.</p><p>Teflon piston seals in automatic transmissions, said seals you replace with steel rings when you rebuild it.</p><p>God invented purgatory just for the pe</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>I 'm a former turner of wrenches gone geek , its much cleaner.Power output on a gasoline engine is controlled by varying the density of the intake charge , gasoline engines have a movable throttle plate on the intake manifold .
The intake charge needs to be say ~ 14 : 1 by weight air to fuel .
Partly because the fuel is lit by an electric spark , also because of the air/fuel chemistry.This is the way a gasoline engine works , 75 years ago or now .
Only the control systems have changed .
Early last century someone actually tried ignition via open flame heating a metal rod red hot that went through the head into the combustion chamber.As an aside diesel does not have a throttle plate , power output is controlled by the amount fuel injected into directly into combustion chamber .
The fuel is lit by the temperature of the compressed intake charge.Back to gasoline , you can dump the fuel in at the throttle plate , via carburetor or throttle body fuel injection .
Or directly into the intake port more or less over the intake valve .
This works best , direct port fuel injection .
Gasoline mechanical fuel injection is alright but EFI just seems more copaceticTraditionally the throttle plate has a coil spring on one side of the shaft that wants to slam , blood blister inducing slam , the throttle plate shut .
There is also a link that goes ultimately to the gas pedal .
It used to be rods , but bushings get wonky and rods are harder to get around corners .
I recall old worn rods that go sideways as much as move clutches , throttles , shifters etc .
Cables are great at going around corners .
The nice , sanitary way to do a clutch is hydraulics , like brakes.I admit that the fly by wire thing does in fact work if done right.The EFI needs to know , amongst other things the throttle position .
Once again traditionally a throttle position sensor is placed on the throttle shaft.I think there are two issues , firstly I think Toyota engineers reinvented the wheel when they did n't have to .
Secondly , if you are going to reinvent the kind of wheel that can get people hurt or killed you really need to do it right.A short rant , automotive engineers I talking to you , to be fair I realize that the design process starts by people deciding what the car is going to look like first , then you get to make it work without costing much.I recall the clutch petal assemblies on certain unnamed American light trucks back in the early 80 's when CAD started apparently becoming more common.Intricate , thin section , bead blasted , lots of nice angles and radii , no metal where it apparently did n't need to be , cast aluminum " cages " rather than the traditional stamped steel " boxy thing .
" The metal was too thin and the casting flash was not ground off .
Result millions of little jaggedy edges for cracks to start .
It was near impossible to find one that was n't cracked or starting to .
These were replace by very obviously much thicker cast aluminum " cages .
" They were not as " trick " looking , they would n't crack but the bushings would go all wonky.Then relays started propagating... power a relay to turn everything and anything on.This makes for cheaper/smaller switches that can do more things , no problem .
But... let us bury said relay , plugs and harness mind you , some place deep under the dash where you can see it but not reach it .
Half an hour or more to get to it , a minute or two to change it , then you get to put it back together , desperately trying to do it " right " so you do n't get complaints about rattles and squeeks etc...And who decided to run the rollers as in roller bearing directly on axel shafts in certain light trucks ? And what was wrong with brass pilot bearings ?
Let 's put a permanently sealed bearing instead , it wo n't stay sealed ( they never do ) , dries out and comes apart when you change it , leaving the outer race in the end of the crankshaft.Teflon piston seals in automatic transmissions , said seals you replace with steel rings when you rebuild it.God invented purgatory just for the pe</tokentext>
<sentencetext>I'm a former turner of wrenches gone geek, its much cleaner.Power output on a gasoline engine is controlled by varying the density of the intake charge, gasoline engines have a movable throttle plate on the intake manifold.
The intake charge needs to be say ~14:1 by weight air to fuel.
Partly because the fuel is lit by an electric spark, also because of the air/fuel chemistry.This is the way a gasoline engine works, 75 years ago or now.
Only the control systems have changed.
Early last century someone actually tried ignition via open flame heating a metal rod red hot that went through the head into the combustion chamber.As an aside diesel does not have a throttle plate, power output is controlled by the amount fuel injected into directly into combustion chamber.
The fuel is lit by the temperature of the compressed intake charge.Back to gasoline, you can dump the fuel in at the throttle plate, via carburetor or throttle body fuel injection.
Or directly into the intake port more or less over the intake valve.
This works best, direct port fuel injection.
Gasoline mechanical fuel injection is alright but EFI just seems more copaceticTraditionally the throttle plate has a coil spring on one side of the shaft that wants to slam, blood blister inducing slam, the throttle plate shut.
There is also a link that goes ultimately to the gas pedal.
It used to be rods, but bushings get wonky and rods are harder to get around corners.
I recall old worn rods that go sideways as much as move clutches, throttles, shifters etc.
Cables are great at going around corners.
The nice, sanitary way to do a clutch is hydraulics, like brakes.I admit that the fly by wire thing does in fact work if done right.The EFI needs to know, amongst other things the throttle position.
Once again traditionally a throttle position sensor is placed on the throttle shaft.I think there are two issues, firstly I think Toyota engineers reinvented the wheel when they didn't have to.
Secondly, if you are going to reinvent the kind of wheel that can get people hurt or killed you really need to do it right.A short rant, automotive engineers I talking to you, to be fair I realize that the design process starts by people deciding what the car is going to look like first, then you get to make it work without costing much.I recall the clutch petal assemblies on certain unnamed American light trucks back in the early 80's when CAD started apparently becoming more common.Intricate, thin section, bead blasted, lots of nice angles and radii, no metal where it apparently didn't need to be, cast aluminum "cages" rather than the traditional stamped steel "boxy thing.
" The metal was too thin and the casting flash was not ground off.
Result millions of little jaggedy edges for cracks to start.
It was near impossible to find one that wasn't cracked or starting to.
These were replace by very obviously much thicker cast aluminum "cages.
" They were not as "trick" looking, they wouldn't crack but the bushings would go all wonky.Then relays started propagating... power a relay to turn everything and anything on.This makes for cheaper/smaller switches that can do more things, no problem.
But... let us bury said relay, plugs and harness mind you, some place deep under the dash where you can see it but not reach it.
Half an hour or more to get to it, a minute or two to change it, then you get to put it back together, desperately trying to do it "right" so you don't get complaints about rattles and squeeks etc...And who decided to run the rollers as in roller bearing directly on axel shafts in certain light trucks?And what was wrong with brass pilot bearings?
Let's put a permanently sealed bearing instead, it won't stay sealed (they never do), dries out and comes apart when you change it, leaving the outer race in the end of the crankshaft.Teflon piston seals in automatic transmissions, said seals you replace with steel rings when you rebuild it.God invented purgatory just for the pe</sentencetext>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30975748</id>
	<title>Re:Don't bash Electronics for Mechanical Failures</title>
	<author>Anonymous</author>
	<datestamp>1264944840000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>0</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>It would be a good idea to test out your methods of stopping the car if it starts to run away.  Talk is cheap, check out what happens in real life.</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>It would be a good idea to test out your methods of stopping the car if it starts to run away .
Talk is cheap , check out what happens in real life .</tokentext>
<sentencetext>It would be a good idea to test out your methods of stopping the car if it starts to run away.
Talk is cheap, check out what happens in real life.</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30974110</parent>
</comment>
<comment>
	<id>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30976038</id>
	<title>Re:missing option Manual Transmission</title>
	<author>PPH</author>
	<datestamp>1264946580000</datestamp>
	<modclass>None</modclass>
	<modscore>1</modscore>
	<htmltext><p>Or you culd just move the spark advance lever all the way over and cause the engine to lose power.
</p><p>Now stay off my lawn!</p></htmltext>
<tokenext>Or you culd just move the spark advance lever all the way over and cause the engine to lose power .
Now stay off my lawn !</tokentext>
<sentencetext>Or you culd just move the spark advance lever all the way over and cause the engine to lose power.
Now stay off my lawn!</sentencetext>
	<parent>http://www.semanticweb.org/ontologies/ConversationInstances.owl#comment10_01_31_2017247.30973398</parent>
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